https://hubpages.com/education/American-History-Censored-Mound-Builders-Giants-of-Antiquity-and-Hollow-Earth
American History Censored: Mound Builders, Giants of Antiquity and Hollow EarthAmerican History Censored
Considering the plethora of ancient archeological sites in North America conspicuously left out of our mainstream education here in America, this article, American History Censored: Mound Builders, Giants of Antiquity and Hollow Earth will show that North America was inhabited with a social sophisticated and technologically advanced ancient race of man. Although much speculation has been bandied about of this race's origins, I will once again make the connection to our Hollow or Inner Earth ancestors that simple can no longer be ignored or censored.
The question most often asked and which is the most perplexing to those new to this information is why would those that formulate our education system and write our history books consistently leave out, censor and distort the abundant discoveries of this ancient giant race of North America...........................................
Not so concerned with the hollow earth part or not. Do you think there has been a cover up or not?
The mound builders aren't mysterious at all. They were native Americans, and the mounds were build by stone age technology. They even messed up on a few of them, leading to severe erosion and flooding.
The book 1493, does a good job of looking at the societies and civilizations as the time Columbus arrived. The mound builders were devastated by diseases brought by the Europeans, which moved ahead of the explorers.
It's a great read for anyone interested in this aspect of American history.
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=book+1493&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI1rXpnP6U4gIVL__jBx0CXQSBEAAYASAAEgIkavD_BwE&hvadid=241899891512&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9026821&hvnetw=g&hvpos=1t1&hvqmt=e&hvrand=984030249378268208&hvtargid=aud-676677759524%3Akwd-47947721147&hydadcr=14464_10217557&tag=googhydr-20&ref=pd_sl_7c8fa8rpoi_e
Not referring to mound mysteries, its the giants I'm referring to. I had a hard time finding this video again, concerning an actual human bone.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=video+of+giant+femur+stored+in+museum&&view=detail&mid=DA3B6CF2AA90C78221DEDA3B6CF2AA90C78221DE&&FORM=VRDGAR
This is the famed Heidelberg man femur from South Africa. If one scaled this according to normal human proportions, it would have been about 8 feet tall. By comparision, the tallest known modern human was just short of 9 feet tall.
: The Barbarian Fri May 24, 2019 - 17:56:57
This is the famed Heidelberg man femur from South Africa. If one scaled this according to normal human proportions, it would have been about 8 feet tall. By comparision, the tallest known modern human was just short of 9 feet tall.
Are you always such a naysayer? Everyone else is always wrong or can be explained away by those quasi experts that you find acceptable?
Curiosity begs me to ask who you believe was the size of those in Gen 6:4?
: seekingHiswisdom Sat May 25, 2019 - 07:15:13
Are you always such a naysayer? Everyone else is always wrong or can be explained away by those quasi experts that you find acceptable?
Curiosity begs me to ask who you believe was the size of those in Gen 6:4?
People using most modern translations would find this an odd question.
Barbarian observes:
This is the famed Heidelberg man femur from South Africa. If one scaled this according to normal human proportions, it would have been about 8 feet tall. By comparison, the tallest known modern human was just short of 9 feet tall.
: seekingHiswisdom Sat May 25, 2019 - 07:15:13
Are you always such a naysayer?
I'm just noting the evidence. The femur us of a huge archaic human being. Heidelberg man is archaic H. sapiens. You think 8 feet qualifies as "giant?" I'm inclined to think so. Just because a modern human happened to be taller, doesn't change anything.
Everyone else is always wrong or can be explained away by those quasi experts that you find acceptable?
It's obviously archaic human. Note the angle of the neck off the trochanter. Human. I don't even have a doctorate in human anatomy, and I can see it.
Curiosity begs me to ask who you believe was the size of those in Gen 6:4?
The Church has no official teaching on this passage, although some ancient writers have speculated that the "sons of God" may have been fallen angels, given that Nephilim, a Hebrew word often rendered as "giants," may also mean "fallen ones." However, given that angels do not have bodies, which are needed for the procreation of human children—barring a miracle—and given that in heaven human beings live like angels and thus do not get married (Matt. 22:30), the identity of the "sons of God" points to mere humans
No one actually knows what "Nephilim" means, so it's fruitless to speculate.
: The Barbarian Sat May 25, 2019 - 09:14:09
However, given that angels do not have bodies, which are needed for the procreation of human children—barring a miracle—
It has happened. Procreation without a human body. (thinking Jesus here)
I will refer you to Hebrews 13:2
Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
This seems to disprove your claim of "given that angels do not have bodies,". And why not? if Jesus had a human body to get around on earth, why would angels here to do a job also not have a human body?
Some people are just rattled by facts.
: Alan Sat May 25, 2019 - 19:03:07
Some people are just rattled by facts.
Referring to me by any chance?
: seekingHiswisdom Sat May 25, 2019 - 07:15:13
Are you always such a naysayer? Everyone else is always wrong or can be explained away by those quasi experts that you find acceptable?
Curiosity begs me to ask who you believe was the size of those in Gen 6:4?
Barb fancies himself a "scientist" of the 100% sure and never wrong caliber. Until of course proved wrong, as they so very often are. Most of the time by one of their own of a slightly different caliber or perspective. Evolutionists of course have to admit that the world was once filled with plants and animals much larger than we have today, but they can't go there with humanity, it would cause big problems for certain aspects of their deep time fairy tale. I don't think they have enough faith in the true elasticity of their new religion. It has demonstrated great abilities of adaption and evolution shall we say, to conform to whatever evidence may be newly discovered.
There is a lot of evidence that this world at one point was better suited to bigger and better life forms than it now is. There is even an ever growing amount of evidence that humanity itself was more advanced at one point in time, than we are today in certain aspects and of course according to science of a different nature in a different world. All of this is easily within the range of reality for those who accept the creation and flood accounts for what they simply say. It is the deep timer evolutionists that run into problems with such. It just doesn't fit their scenario which they prefer above what scripture plainly states. They of course insist that it does not plainly state, what it plainly states. So be it.
http://www.beforeus.com/email/article/article6_The_Lost_World_of_Giants.html
Entire presentation quote below was taken from may be viewed at above link.
THE LOST WORLD OF GIANTS
INTRODUCTION
"Bones of an alligator which was as long as a house and as tall as its ceilings have been found on the banks of the Amazon River in South America. Scientists estimate from the alligator's 1.5 metre skull that it was about 2.5 metres tall, and about 12 metres long. Professor Carl Frailey, from Overland Park, Kansas, said the creature probably weighed about 120 tonnes. 'This would make it heavier than Tyrannosaurus rex... the mightiest of dinosaur predators', he said." (The Sunday Mail, Brisbane, November 17, 1991)
Can you imagine it? Perhaps at this moment you are seated in a room that has a 2.5 meter (8 foot) ceiling. So now, fill up the room with the alligator's head and upper body, then walk out and back through the whole house. That's all alligator.
Essentially, everything in the fossil record was larger in the past than it is today.
The environmental conditions of that early world would exercise the full genetic viability of all life forms. There is evidence that the earth supported plant and animal life of fantastic size and numbers.
The fossil record shows that all terrestrial life has decreased in size. The largest members of the animal kingdom are either becoming extinct, or shrinking as if touched by a magic wand. Mammals were often twice the size of their current counterparts.
There were kangaroos as large as today's hippopotamuses, with skulls a meter long. Sheep were as big as today's horses. Frogs were 6 to 10 feet (2 to 3 meters), with heads half a meter long - and jaws more powerful than those of a modern ox. Fossil eagles have been found; these birds were 40 feet (13 meters) long and 12 feet (4 meters) high. Oh yes, and lobsters 6 feet (2 meters) long.
Australian koalas were as big as rhinos. In the northwest of South Australia, between 500 and 1,000 skeletons were found of a colossal wombat as large as a rhinoceros! It was given the name Diprotodon.
In New Zealand zoologists from Christchurch chipped out of a cave roof the fossil skeleton of a penguin 7 feet (2.2 meters) tall.
On the Matakaoa foreshore, near Te Araroa, were found preserved prints of a huge animal. The prints extended for some distance. Some were 28 inches (70 centimeters) in breadth.
Personnel at the Dominion Museum suggested the tracks might be those of either the Megatherium or the Labrynthodon, huge mammals estimated to have weighed up to 30 tons.
The Assistant-Director of the Auckland Institute and Museum wrote an article for the Auckland Star and objected to the foregoing information, since "such a statement is not in accordance with the modern scientific view of evolution and of geology." It was believed that New Zealand's wildlife had evolved in isolation independently from the rest of the world, hence its uniqueness. But if this were so, then these giants must have evolved parallel with the same giants INDEPENDENTLY in more than one place. This stretched credulity to the limit.
Well, perhaps we should begin to review our scientific theories!
In North and South America fossil crocodiles have been found in the rocks up to 18 meters (54 feet) long. Present-day Australian crocs are small by comparison and grow only to 6 meters (20 feet) long, and that is awesome enough. The coalfields around Manchester and Newcastle (UK) as well as those in Pennsylvania and Alabama (USA), contain giant fossil horse tail rush plants as tall as a five storey building. Today horse tails plague British and USA gardens at only 45 cm (18 inches) tall. The common Tasselfern found in Australia and other countries grows only a few feet tall, but in the rocks its fossil ancestors are over 30 meters (100 feet) tall. Alongside such giant preserved plants are fossil cockroaches, forty times bigger than the ones we see today.
On a Nova Scotia field trip led by Australian John Mackay, a giant fossil slater or wood louse was photographed. This monster has been found on both sides of the Atlantic Ocean amongst fossil trees in the coal fields of Nova Scotia and Western Scotland. The fossil was so well preserved that its stomach contents were intact. There is no difficulty in identifying it as a giant member of the wood lice or roly poly family which is still here with us. They used to be nearly 2 meters (6 feet) long. Today they are only about ½ inch (1 centimeter) long.
A huge fossil ammonite was discovered on the west coast of New Zealand. It is nearly 2 meters (6 feet) across. This giant shellfish's only known present day cousin is the Nautilus shell, which measures from 5 to 25 centimeters (2 to 10 inches).
Says English scientist Alfred Russell Wallace: "It is quite clear, therefore, that we live in a zoologically impoverished world, from which all the hugest and fiercest and strangest forms have disappeared." (The Geographical Distribution of Animals, pp. 150,151) Even Charles Darwin was astonished to discover that "now we find mere pigmies compared with the antecedent allied races." (Sir Henry Howarth, The Mammoth and the Flood, p. 351)
: The Barbarian Fri May 24, 2019 - 17:56:57
This is the famed Heidelberg man femur from South Africa. If one scaled this according to normal human proportions, it would have been about 8 feet tall. By comparision, the tallest known modern human was just short of 9 feet tall.
Others claim it would have been about twelve feet. By just looking, I would say it is at least twice the size of the normal bone if not a bit larger.
http://www.bible.ca/tracks/fossilized-human-finger.htm
If the testimony at the above link be true, it certainly creates some problems for the present evolutionary scenario.
: Amo Sun May 26, 2019 - 08:38:43
Barb fancies himself a "scientist" of the 100% sure and never wrong caliber.
Amo fancies himself a mind-reader. My wife being a remarkably astute insurance analyst, I only have to walk across the room to be reminded of all the things I don't know.
There is a lot of evidence that this world at one point was better suited to bigger and better life forms than it now is.
The record height for an anatomically modern human is almost a foot higher than your archaic H. sapiens. So there is that.
There is even an ever growing amount of evidence that humanity itself was more advanced at one point in time, than we are today in certain aspects and of course according to science of a different nature in a different world.
Sounds intriguing. Show us that evidence.
: Amo Sun May 26, 2019 - 09:18:26
Others claim it would have been about twelve feet.
Comes down to evidence. Scaled up, it's about 8 feet. Don't know why that's such a concern; the largest known anthropoid primate, Gigantopitheicus, was up to 10 feet tall.
By just looking, I would say it is at least twice the size of the normal bone if not a bit larger.
The neck of the trochanter (the only intact part for which we can measure length here) has it about 1.5X the the length of the comparison femur. So that would come out to about a 90 inch tall individual, or about 7 and a half feet, if the modern femur is average for human male. NASA has a great anthropometry resource, which you can check for yourself:
https://msis.jsc.nasa.gov/sections/section03.htm
: Amo Sun May 26, 2019 - 09:19:42
http://www.bible.ca/tracks/fossilized-human-finger.htm
If the testimony at the above link be true, it certainly creates some problems for the present evolutionary scenario.
Looking at the X-ray of the rock, it doesn't look remotely like the X-ray of a finger:
(https://prod-images.static.radiopaedia.org/images/3296029/821f37592ff3758cb221d9cdb0f1ee_jumbo.jpg)
(http://www.bible.ca/tracks/fossil-finger-dr-dale-peterson.jpg)
: The Barbarian Sun May 26, 2019 - 18:24:56
Looking at the X-ray of the rock, it doesn't look remotely like the X-ray of a finger:
(https://prod-images.static.radiopaedia.org/images/3296029/821f37592ff3758cb221d9cdb0f1ee_jumbo.jpg)
(http://www.bible.ca/tracks/fossil-finger-dr-dale-peterson.jpg)
No big surprise that a fossilized basically rock finger looks different than a flesh and bone finger when X-rayed.
: The Barbarian Sun May 26, 2019 - 18:06:55
Amo fancies himself a mind-reader. My wife being a remarkably astute insurance analyst, I only have to walk across the room to be reminded of all the things I don't know.
The record height for an anatomically modern human is almost a foot higher than your archaic H. sapiens. So there is that.
Sounds intriguing. Show us that evidence.
A whole lot of people are not buying the evolutionary model of history anymore. True enough, most of them still avoid the biblical scenario as well because they just don't want to go there. Even though that scenario supplies a good explanation for what they observe and or reject about evolution or most modern explanations of history. They lean toward alien influence or cyclical civilizations for an explanation of all the megalithic structures and apparent remanence of advanced societies and technology that doesn't fit the present evolutionary or historical narrative now prevalent. A whole lot of buried structures exist all over the world, which of course could easily indicate something like a global flood with huge mud flows and lava flows as well of course if the crust of the earth was broken open as the bible suggests. The following video takes a look at some of the evidence. The guy has some really good points concerning ancient construction techniques very similar to those of the present, and what seems to be left over indications of technology. He goes way overboard with his views in giants though and thinks the world and technology are much older than present narratives allow for.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65n1csc96D0
More of his videos may be viewed at -
https://www.youtube.com/user/thc682132
: Amo Sat Jun 08, 2019 - 18:53:04
No big surprise that a fossilized basically rock finger looks different than a flesh and bone finger when X-rayed.
If it was a petrified finger, an x-ray would have shown bones. But there are none. Since the bones would have been calcium phosphate, the petrified soft tissues would have a different density, and there fore the finger bones would have shown up. But as you see, no bones.
A finger-shaped rock with no bones.
: Amo Sat Jun 08, 2019 - 19:13:19
A whole lot of people are not buying the evolutionary model of history anymore.
Actually, it's the other way around. More and more Americans are accepting what science has found:
(https://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/ykfsllgkeu2lh9t3krxq2w.png)
Which of the sites your guy talks about have been proven to be buried by a world-wide flood, and what is the evidence for his belief?
: The Barbarian Sat Jun 08, 2019 - 21:40:04
Actually, it's the other way around. More and more Americans are accepting what science has found:
(https://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/ykfsllgkeu2lh9t3krxq2w.png)
Which of the sites your guy talks about have been proven to be buried by a world-wide flood, and what is the evidence for his belief?
Just like the vast majority of all the fossils all over the world which even evolutionists freely admit or must confess were likely buried and preserved in flood conditions. There are buried remains of structures and even cities all over the world. Of course the most obvious and simple explanation is ignored.
: Amo Sun Jun 09, 2019 - 12:22:25
Just like the vast majority of all the fossils all over the world which even evolutionists freely admit or must confess were likely buried and preserved in flood conditions.
No, that's wrong. For example, polystrate fossils require slow, periodic deposition over decades. Oviraptor was found in a collapsed desert sand dune. The very human-like Australopithecine tracks at Laetoli were made in the ash of a then-recent volcano eruption. Fossil found in lake varves were buried gradually by thin layers, two per year.
Archaeoptyrx was first found in what was an anoxic marsh mud.
The many early Cambrian fossils in the Burgess shale were found in a mudslide that buried a shore community in very placid waters. As Kurt Wise points out, whale fossils are found in what creationists consider post-flood deposits, and that this is one of the toughest problems for creationism.
There are buried remains of structures and even cities all over the world. Of course the most obvious and simple explanation is ignored.
The most obvious and simple explanation would be that floods and other natural disasters are common phenomena on the Earth and that this is why we find those remains. The fantastic and complicated explanation would be that a worldwide flood did it all at once, and somehow made it look as though it happened in many separate incidents.
But to address your claim, you now see that it's just the opposite of what you said. More and more people are accepting the fact that living things evolve from other living things.
: The Barbarian Sun Jun 09, 2019 - 16:16:02
No, that's wrong. For example, polystrate fossils require slow, periodic deposition over decades. Oviraptor was found in a collapsed desert sand dune. The very human-like Australopithecine tracks at Laetoli were made in the ash of a then-recent volcano eruption. Fossil found in lake varves were buried gradually by thin layers, two per year.
Archaeoptyrx was first found in what was an anoxic marsh mud.
The many early Cambrian fossils in the Burgess shale were found in a mudslide that buried a shore community in very placid waters. As Kurt Wise points out, whale fossils are found in what creationists consider post-flood deposits, and that this is one of the toughest problems for creationism.
The most obvious and simple explanation would be that floods and other natural disasters are common phenomena on the Earth and that this is why we find those remains. The fantastic and complicated explanation would be that a worldwide flood did it all at once, and somehow made it look as though it happened in many separate incidents.
But to address your claim, you now see that it's just the opposite of what you said. More and more people are accepting the fact that living things evolve from other living things.
Baloney! They are all in mud and or flood conditions. Large amounts of mud spread around is a flood condition. Nor do you or yours know the exact conditions which created the fossils but in your own puffed up minds as self proclaimed prophets of exactly what happened ions ago. Neither is this to say, that all fossils are flood related. Do I need to post one article after another after another again from your own, referring to flood conditions as the likely cause of so many fossils?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rctoqWu3i0
As so very many have come to realize, at a certain point in time going back in observing the evidence, it becomes apparent that ancient structures and tech were more advanced further back in time. Much of this advanced construction was used and built upon by less advanced peoples who came after these original builders were gone, and there knowledge with them. It may very well be that the megalithic structures are remnants of the preflood world either left on the surface or discovered below it by post flood less advanced people. Or perhaps they are remnants of lost knowledge from Noah and his immediate descendants as humanity rapidly devolved mentally and physically in an changed world no longer adapt to providing the proper conditions for people and creatures as large or with the longevity the former world could support.
Barbarian observes:
No, that's wrong. For example, polystrate fossils require slow, periodic deposition over decades. Oviraptor was found in a collapsed desert sand dune. The very human-like Australopithecine tracks at Laetoli were made in the ash of a then-recent volcano eruption. Fossil found in lake varves were buried gradually by thin layers, two per year.
Archaeoptyrx was first found in what was an anoxic marsh mud.
The many early Cambrian fossils in the Burgess shale were found in a mudslide that buried a shore community in very placid waters. As Kurt Wise points out, whale fossils are found in what creationists consider post-flood deposits, and that this is one of the toughest problems for creationism.
The most obvious and simple explanation would be that floods and other natural disasters are common phenomena on the Earth and that this is why we find those remains. The fantastic and complicated explanation would be that a worldwide flood did it all at once, and somehow made it look as though it happened in many separate incidents.
But to address your claim, you now see that it's just the opposite of what you said. More and more people are accepting the fact that living things evolve from other living things.
: Amo Mon Jun 10, 2019 - 03:51:09
Baloney!
Sorry, denial won't change reality.
They are all in mud and or flood conditions.
Nope. See above. Even worse for your story are the insect nests found in petrified soil half way down in the Grand Canyon. Think you can explain what insects were doing, building nests in the middle of the flood?
Large amounts of mud spread around is a flood condition.
It's also a normal erosion condition. You've got Zebra's syndrome. You hear hooves, and you say "Aha! Zebra!"
Nor do you or yours know the exact conditions which created the fossils...
Actually,l paleontologists know very precisely what caused these fossils. But in your own puffed up mind as a self proclaimed prophet, you think you imagine exactly what happened eons ago.
You imagine one big flood when the geologic record and human history shows many individual floods.
: Amo Mon Jun 10, 2019 - 04:03:03
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rctoqWu3i0
As so very many have come to realize, at a certain point in time going back in observing the evidence, it becomes apparent that ancient structures and tech were more advanced further back in time.
Hmmm... no, that doesn't seem to be the case. The earliest known built structures were constructed of mammoth bones stacked up to produce shelters. Not very sophisticated.
Later, we see stone structures, made from rocks shaped to fit together.
Gobekli Tepe, in Turkey, is the oldest known city, apparently built by hunter-gatherers who didn't farm.
(https://assets.atlasobscura.com/media/W1siZiIsInVwbG9hZHMvcGxhY2VfaW1hZ2VzL0dvYnRlbXBsZS5qcGciXSxbInAiLCJ0aHVtYiIsIngzOTA-Il0sWyJwIiwiY29udmVydCIsIi1xdWFsaXR5IDgxIC1hdXRvLW9yaWVudCJdXQ/Gobtemple.jpg)
Doesn't look that sophisticated to me.
Henges of the monolith culture exist around the coastline of Europe. Perhaps the most sophisticated is Stonehenge:
(https://www.history.com/.image/t_share/MTYyNzgwNDg4MzQyMTg1ODI1/topic-stonehenge-gettyimages-682586546.jpg)
It seems to have been a sort of calendar/observatory for marking things like solstices and maybe eclipses. But still very primitive structurally.
Mesopotamian civilizations moved a bit beyond that, with much better stone cutting and brick making.
The Egyptian pyramids were the culmination of a long history of development from primitive mastabas to Djoser's Step Pyramid, to the final pyramids at Giza. None were breakthroughs in building technique.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-vShPwXuuCYU/UehuJBWLq1I/AAAAAAAAHaI/2aZW5y6V9pk/s1600/The+mastaba+tombs+A.jpg)
(https://www.touropia.com/gfx/b/2009/02/step_pyramid_of_djoser.jpghttps://www.touropia.com/gfx/b/2009/02/step_pyramid_of_djoser.jpg)
(http://cdn.24.co.za/files/Cms/General/d/8294/340928d2554d4f2592663b22a9d42972.jpg)
The Arch was a true innovation, apparently invented by the Etruscans and developed fully by the Romans. Much later, the more efficient catenary arch was developed.
Nothing to indicate anything other than the accumulation of knowledge over time.
More baloney from Barb.
Here is another video from Wise Up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOtu8g0y70A
: Amo Wed Jun 12, 2019 - 19:20:34
More baloney from Barb.
Here is another video from Wise Up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOtu8g0y70A
Yes, buildings tended to be built with stone in the stone age, and after. The Porcena Grotto appears to be Etruscan, who were iron age people.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0M8JqyPzpg
Some good points and or questions about the bogus narrative given to us by the likes of Barb and those who think we already know it all. We can't even get the truth about what is happening today around the world, let alone thousands of years ago. Agenda driven news twisting facts to their own ends isn't just a recent development. The widely accepted evolutionary and historical narrative is no different. Self confident and promoting "scientists and historians" have and continue to pass their own speculative narratives off as indisputable truth. There will always be those though, who prefer to do a little thinking for themselves.
Once again, the biblical global flood scenario could supply answers to the obvious gaping holes in the present narrative being questioned in the video provided. Most simply choose not to go there, because they don't like the truths which it leads to.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=underground+cities+burrowewd+or+buried&view=detail&mid=AE46A9391080783CE358AE46A9391080783CE358&FORM=VIRE
More observations an questions regarding present false narratives.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=underground+cities+burrowewd+or+buried&&view=detail&mid=97069D1982042182B30097069D1982042182B300&&FORM=VDRVRV
More. Structures and cities carved or cut out of rock and earth, of more likely dug back out having been buried by floods or the flood.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=underground+cities+burrowewd+or+buried&&view=detail&mid=94B5594B15013C9F914194B5594B15013C9F9141&&FORM=VDRVRV
This video is just another Baloney narrative regarding underground cities buried long ago and dug out or discovered and used by later generations.
None of these seem particularly technologically advanced. They seem perfectly possible to build with technology known to exist at the time.
: The Barbarian Fri Jun 14, 2019 - 14:58:07
None of these seem particularly technologically advanced. They seem perfectly possible to build with technology known to exist at the time.
I'm going to go out on a limb here, and state that they were absolutely built with technology and or knowledge which existed at their time. That of curse is not the question. Just like the evolution creation debate, the same evidence is here to be examined by all. Just how old it is, what exactly it was, and how technologically advanced or knowledgable the builders were, are some of the areas of disagreement among those examining the same. There will of course be difference of opinions among those of different world views. Deep time evolutionists, young earth creationists, those of the alien influence mindset, and those of the cyclical civilizations mindset, to mention a few. They are all looking at the same evidence.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eSPS-YK0FY
More buried structures in Turkey, after the temple of apollo stuff.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f88ZCTcwJP8
GOBEKLITEPE
: Amo Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 09:02:25
I'm going to go out on a limb here, and state that they were absolutely built with technology and or knowledge which existed at their time.
More importantly, they were built with technology
known to have existed at the time.
Just like the evolution creation debate, the same evidence is here to be examined by all. Just how old it is, what exactly it was, and how technologically advanced or knowledgable the builders were, are some of the areas of disagreement among those examining the same. There will of course be difference of opinions among those of different world views. Deep time evolutionists, young earth creationists, those of the alien influence mindset, and those of the cyclical civilizations mindset, to mention a few. They are all looking at the same evidence.
I don't buy the story that truth is whatever you make of it. There is evidence, and it can lead you to the truth, if you're willing to accept it.
: Amo Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 10:02:40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f88ZCTcwJP8
GOBEKLITEPE
Your guy finds broken stuff that's been restored, and he supposes it's original.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-w7gzIQAHf0
The case for re-writing history! New evidence, an introduction to UnchartedX
The above video is concerning the growing number of those who question the mainstream historical narrative in relation to new and even old evidence. In rejecting the biblical account of creation and a young earth though, they share a similar problem with deep time evolutionists. As evidenced in another thread, deep time evolutionists are continually pushing back the time frame concerning the issue of complexity. As a creationist of course, I understand this to be the case because complexity was there from the beginning as the scriptures plainly state. Thus do those of the deep time scenarios end up pushing the issue of complexity further and further back according to their faulty premise of deep time in the first place.
So now do these who are questioning the mainstream historical narrative without acknowledging the young earth creationist biblical view, fall into the same type of erroneous conclusions. Still maintaining the evolutionary view of slow human mental, moral, and intellectual development, they fall into the same routine. Therefore they turn to theories about cyclical civilizations rising and falling according to the same with the loss of information and know how, or perhaps alien influence aiding our development. None of this is necessary though, if humanity was created with high mental, moral, and intellectual reasoning and learning capabilities. They were capable of building high tech structures and societies from the beginning. They did so increasingly during the first couple of thousand years from creation in a more global society than today's, until all of such was wiped out in the biblical global flood. The remnants of which is some of the evidence we examine today.
: The Barbarian Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 10:11:08
More importantly, they were built with technology known to have existed at the time.
I don't buy the story that truth is whatever you make of it. There is evidence, and it can lead you to the truth, if you're willing to accept it.
You are of course free to believe who and as you wish. As I and all others are free to accept or disagree with you and those you place your faith in.
: The Barbarian Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 10:14:31
Your guy finds broken stuff that's been restored, and he supposes it's original.
He's not my guy. Nor do I agree with everything he says. He among others have clearly shown as I see it, that many ancient sites of higher tech. societies were built upon by later lower tech. societies. The former inspired the latter mentally, spiritually, and intellectually. Their societies were somewhat shaped and influenced religiously and intellectually by the superior nature of the remains they found of the world that was before them. The evidence of which is of course ignored or twisted by those of deep time evolutionary slow development theory mindsets.
: Amo Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 10:36:35
The above video is concerning the growing number of those who question the mainstream historical narrative in relation to new and even old evidence. In rejecting the biblical account of creation and a young earth though, they share a similar problem with deep time evolutionists. As evidenced in another thread, deep time evolutionists are continually pushing back the time frame concerning the issue of complexity.
I showed you quite a while ago, that "complexity" isn't an issue in evolution. Sometimes, as in the case of humans, things get simplified. Sometimes, as in the case of corals, they get more complex. "Complexity" is a creationist buzzword they use to sound more sciencey.
As a creationist of course, I understand this to be the case because complexity was there from the beginning as the scriptures plainly state.
That's a testable claim...
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created heaven, and earth. [2] And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God moved over the waters.
Nope. That's a false claim. It's pretty simple from the beginning.
So now do these who are questioning the mainstream historical narrative without acknowledging the young earth creationist biblical view, fall into the same type of erroneous conclusions. Still maintaining the evolutionary view of slow human mental, moral, and intellectual development, they fall into the same routine. Therefore they turn to theories about cyclical civilizations rising and falling according to the same with the loss of information and know how, or perhaps alien influence aiding our development. None of this is necessary though, if humanity was created with high mental, moral, and intellectual reasoning and learning capabilities. They were capable of building high tech structures and societies from the beginning.
Your problem is lack of evidence. As you learned, all those structures were completely doable with stone age technology. And there's no evidence whatever for a stone age global culture.
: The Barbarian Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 11:23:52
I showed you quite a while ago, that "complexity" isn't an issue in evolution. Sometimes, as in the case of humans, things get simplified. Sometimes, as in the case of corals, they get more complex. "Complexity" is a creationist buzzword they use to sound more sciencey.
That's a testable claim...
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created heaven, and earth. [2] And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God moved over the waters.
Nope. That's a false claim. It's pretty simple from the beginning.
Your problem is lack of evidence. As you learned, all those structures were completely doable with stone age technology. And there's no evidence whatever for a stone age global culture.
BALONEY!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cp4oBJvbsiM
More buried stuff.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7grqEYmDc8
More buried built stuff, not carved out structures or dwellings.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulL6Nfe9pKs
More from Wise Up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94f_OxiZhuQ
Serapeum in Egypt originally built above ground NOT CARVED
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHa0cf4KsY8
WISE UP, again.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTEuY3-w0ok
I have heard of several cover ups, but never to the extent this video claims. Some good points about ancient knowledge and tech being as or more advanced than ours but in a different way. This would be true if the pre-flood world was far different from our own, and the antediluvians had a greater knowledge of it, and how to use or manipulate natural phenomenon to their own ends. Such could help explain the many mysterious structures which simply do not fit the evolutionary or simple to complex society historical narrative we have been taught. Our present industrial society has learned how to use and consume nature unto certain types of advancement as most might see it, but the antediluvians might have been much more "green" so to speak than we are. In a more organized and enlightened world closer to creation, advancements would no doubt proceed along similar lines. Nor would many of the resources this fuel driven world now employs, exist without the burial of the old world supplying such a demand. Even our advances and technology are built upon the use of fuel supplied by buried remnants of a superior pre-flood world.
The presence of larger organisms in different ages of the Earth likely has something to do with the amount of oxygen in the atmosphere, or the ability of some organisms like dinosaurs (at least some of which had much more efficient breathing than we do) to make better use of the oxygen in the air.
However, it's not oxygen that limits the size of humans. A vertebrate skeleton increases in strength by the square of its length, but it's mass increases by the cube of its length, meaning that a scaled-up human would be a weak and fragile thing, prone to lots injuries and cumulative damage just from regular activities.
This is why exceptionally tall people are so likely to die early and to have many health problems.
: Amo Sun May 26, 2019 - 08:38:43
Barb fancies himself a "scientist" of the 100% sure and never wrong caliber.
Amo fancies that Barbarian fancies himself 100% sure and never wrong. I know a secret for appearing to know everything:
Only talk about things you understand.It can save you a lot of embarrassment.
: Amo Sat Feb 22, 2020 - 14:03:06
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTEuY3-w0ok
I have heard of several cover ups, but never to the extent this video claims. Some good points about ancient knowledge and tech being as or more advanced than ours but in a different way. This would be true if the pre-flood world was far different from our own, and the antediluvians had a greater knowledge of it, and how to use or manipulate natural phenomenon to their own ends. Such could help explain the many mysterious structures which simply do not fit the evolutionary or simple to complex society historical narrative we have been taught. Our present industrial society has learned how to use and consume nature unto certain types of advancement as most might see it, but the antediluvians might have been much more "green" so to speak than we are. In a more organized and enlightened world closer to creation, advancements would no doubt proceed along similar lines. Nor would many of the resources this fuel driven world now employs, exist without the burial of the old world supplying such a demand. Even our advances and technology are built upon the use of fuel supplied by buried remnants of a superior pre-flood world.
Or...(https://www.madaboutmemes.com/uploads/memes/1931.png)
: NorrinRadd Sat Feb 22, 2020 - 23:36:26
Or...(https://www.madaboutmemes.com/uploads/memes/1931.png)
::applause::
Ancient astronaut theorists always say that!
::whistle::
I read this quote from Buffalo Bill's autobiography somewhere, so I bought a rare old edition of his book to see if it was actually written in it. It is...
"While we were in the hills scouting the Niobrara country, the Pawnees brought in some very large bones, one of which the surgeon of the expedition said was the thigh bone of a human being. The Indians said the bones were those of a race of people who long ago had lived in that country...These giants, they said, denied the existence of the Great Spirit. When they heard thunder or lightening they laughed and declared themselves to be greater than either.
This so displeased the Great Spirit that he caused a deluge. The water rose higher and higher till it drove these proud giants from the low lands to the hills and thence to the mountains. At last even the mountain tops were submerged and the mammoth men were drowned...This story has been handed down among the Pawnees for generations."
There's plenty of old newspaper articles in the late 1800's and early 1900's of discoveries of giant skeletons found in so-called Indian burial mounds in North America. Some of these articles have Smithsonian reps that did the actual measurements, some of the bones being between 9 and 11 feet tall. Some of the skulls were reported to have portions of red hair left on them (the American Indians are not know for having red hair).
That a hybrid-race of giants once existed on this earth should not be a surprise, because God's Word tells us about it.
In Genesis 6, we are told the "sons of God" saw the daughters of men (Adam) and took wives of them. Their offspring were the giants, a hybrid race of great stature. We are told they were 'men of renown', which means literally 'men of the name', i.e. of the legend. What legend? The ancient mythologies of gods once here upon the earth, the Titans, etc.
Also in Genesis 6, we are told that Noah was perfect in his generations, which the word perfect in the Hebrew is a word used to describe the perfect unblemished condition of a sacrificial animal required per old covenant sacrifice. No mistaking the subject was about the bloodline purity of Noah's family, and that Noah had not mixed his bloodline with those giants.
There are a lot of stories, but those bones are always somehow lost.
And then there's this "cyclops skull" from an ancient Greek museum:
(http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~loxias/odyssey/skull01.jpg)
It's not a fake. It's the skull of a fossil elephant.
Or this dragon skull :
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4b/Samotherium_boissieri.JPG)
(fossil giraffe)
Or a griffin:
(https://images.justcollecting.com/large/M1659/PIC1000505858/WMOZVLHWKO.JPG)
Protoceratops dinosaur.
: The Barbarian Wed Feb 26, 2020 - 15:58:29
There are a lot of stories, but those bones are always somehow lost.
....
Of course there will always be doubters. And it's not about doubting the existence of bones. It's about doubting the very Word of God:
2 Sam 21:20
20 And there was yet a battle in Gath, where was a man of great stature, that had on every hand six fingers, and on every foot six toes, four and twenty in number; and he also was born to the giant.
KJV
2 Sam 21:16
16 And Ishbi-benob, which was of the sons of the giant, the weight of whose spear weighed three hundred shekels of brass in weight, he being girded with a new sword, thought to have slain David.
KJV
The following is one of two OT Scriptures where the KJV translators didn't bring forth the proper name Rephaim which was a name for the giants in Canaan.
Isa 26:14
14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are
deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast Thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
KJV
The word "deceased" is actually the name Rephaim about the giants. That verse says "they shall not rise", suggesting they will not be resurrected. So can that apply to wicked men that some think that's all the giants were, and not an abnormal hybrid? No, it cannot apply to men that are just wicked, for even the wicked are to be resurrected to the "resurrection of damnation" (John 5). The giants will not be resurrected simply because God did not ordain them, they were hybrids which Satan tried to use to taint the lineage that Jesus would be born through, i.e., Noah.
2 Sam 21:16
16 And Ishbi-benob, which was of the sons of the giant, the weight of whose spear weighed three hundred shekels of brass in weight, he being girded with a new sword, thought to have slain David.
KJV
A shekel weighed about 17 grams in the heaviest-known form. A 300-shekel spear would weigh, at most, 5100 grams, or a bit more than 11 pounds. So an eleven-pound spear seems reasonable. The sarissa spear carried by Macedonian soldiers weighed about 14 pounds.
https://www.ducksters.com/history/ancient_greece/soldiers_and_war.php
Since we have no numbers for the others, we can't say much about them, but the giant Goliath, was "six cubits and a span", which is roughly nine feet and some inches. Which would make him a few inches taller than the tallest known human at 8 feet 11 inches. So not at all impossible.
and a half feet.
I don't believe everything this guy says in the link below, but what he says about old documents of giant skeletons found in the Americas are true. They really exist and are not just fabrications, just as the Buffalo Bill autobiography section I quoted from his book about the large bones the Pawnee Indian showed him, and gave him an account of the giant hybrids.
https://grahamhancock.com/vieiranewman1/
It always comes down to evidence. And so often the "bones of giants" turn out to be real fossils, but not of giant humans.
No one yet has come forward with anything as big as the largest known human in modern times.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/830123/posts
Giant Human Remains
- From records and sources all over the world. -submitted by John Williams
Giant Skeletons:
In his book, The Natural and Aboriginal History of Tennessee, author John
Haywood describes "very large" bones in stone graves found in Williamson
County, Tennessee, in 1821. In White County, Tennessee, an "ancient
fortification" contained skeletons of gigantic stature averaging at least 7
feet in length.
Giant skeletons were found in the mid-1800s near Rutland and Rodman, New
York. J.N. DeHart, M.D. found vertebrae "larger than those of the present
type" in Wisconsin mounds in 1876. W.H.R. Lykins uncovered skull bones "of
great size and thickness" in mounds of Kansas City area in 1877.
George W. Hill, M.D., dug out a skeleton "of unusual size" in a mound of
Ashland County, Ohio. In 1879, a nine-foot, eight-inch skeleton was
excavated from a mound near Brewersville, Indiana (Indianapolis News, Nov 10,
1975).
A six foot, six inch skeleton was found in a Utah mound. This was at least a
foot taller than the average Indian height in the area, and these natives-
what few there were of them -were not mound builders.
"A skeleton which is reported to have been of enormous dimensions" was found
in a clay coffin, with a sandstone slab containing hieroglyphics, during
mound explorations by a Dr Everhart near Zanesville, Ohio. (American
Antiquarian, v3, 1880, pg61).
Ten skeletons "of both sexes and of gigantic size" were taken from a mound
at Warren, Minnesota, 1883. (St. Paul Pioneer Press, May 23, 1883)
A skeleton 7 feet 6 inches long was found in a massive stone structure that
was likened to a temple chamber within a mound in Kanawha County, West
Virginia, in 1884. (American Antiquarian, v6, 1884 133f. Cyrus Thomas,
Report on Mound Explorations of the Bureau of Ethnology, 12th Annual Report,
Smithsonian Bureau of Ethnology, 1890-91).
A large mound near Gasterville, Pennsylvania, contained a vault in which was
found a skeleton measuring 7 feet 2 inches. Inscriptions were carved on the
vault. (American Antiquarian, v7, 1885, 52f).
In 1885, miners discovered the mummified remains of woman measuring 6 feet 8
inches tall holding an infant. The mummies were found in a cave behind a
wall of rock in the Yosemite Valley.
In Minnesota, 1888, were discovered remains of seven skeletons 7 to 8 feet
tall. (St. Paul Pioneer Press, June 29, 1888).
A mound near Toledo, Ohio, held 20 skeletons, seated and facing east with
jaws and teeth "twice as large as those of present day people," and besides
each was a large bowl with "curiously wrought hieroglyphic figures."
(Chicago Record, Oct. 24, 1895; cited by Ron G. Dobbins, NEARA Journal, v13,
fall 1978).
The skeleton of a huge man was uncovered at the Beckley farm, Lake Koronis,
Minnesota; while at Moose Island and Pine City, bones of other giants came
to light. (St. Paul Globe, Aug. 12, 1896).
In 1911, several red-haired mummies ranging from 6 and a half feet to 8 feet
tall were discovered in a cave in Lovelock, Nevada.
In February and June of 1931, large skeletons were found in the Humboldt
lake bed near Lovelock, Nevada. The first of these two skeletons found
measured 8 1/2 feet tall and appeared to have been wrapped in a gum-covered
fabric similiar to the Egyptian manner. The second skeleton was almost 10
feet long. (Review - Miner, June 19, 1931).
A 7 foot 7 inch skeleton was reported to have been found on the Friedman
ranch, near Lovelock, Nevada, in 1939.(Review - Miner, Sept. 29, 1939)
In 1965, a skeleton measuring 8 feet 9 inches was found buried under a rock
ledge along the Holly Creek in east-central Kentucky.
AUSTRALIAN GIANTS:
There was a race or group of people found in Australia called "meganthropus"
by anthropologists. These people were of very large size--estimated between
7 to 12 feet tall, depending on what source you read. These people were
found with mega tool artifacts, so their humaness is difficult to question.
Four jaw fragments and thousands of teeth have been found in China of
"gigantopithecus blacki"--named after the discover. Based on the size of the
teeth and deep jaws, its size has been estimated at around 10 feet and as
tall as 12 feet, 1200 pounds.
PROOF OF AUSTRALIAN GIANTS:
In old river gravels near Bathurst, NSW, huge stone artifacts -- clubs,
pounders, adzes, chisels, knives and hand axes -- all of tremendous weight,
lie scattered over a wide area. These weigh anything from 8, 10, 15, to 21
and 25 pounds, implements which only men of tremendous proportions could
possibly have made and used. Estimates for the actual size of these men
range from 10 to 12 feet tall and over, weighing from 500 to 600 lbs.
A fossicker searching the Winburndale River north of Bathurst discovered a
large quartzitised fossil human molar tooth, far too big for any normal
modern man. A similar find was made near Dubbo, N.S.W.
Prospectors working in the Bathurst district in the 1930's frequently
reported coming across numerous large human footprints fossilised in shoals
of red jasper.
Even more impressive were fossil deposits found by naturalist Rex Gilroy
around Bathurst. He excavated from a depth of 6 feet (2 m) below the surface
a fossil lower back molar tooth measuring 67 mm. in length by 50mm. x 42 mm.
across the crown. If his measurements are correct, the owner would have been
at least 25 ft. tall, weighing well over 1,000 lbs!
At Gympie, Queensland, a farmer, Keith Walker, was ploughing his field when
he turned up the large fragment of the back portion of a jaw which still
possessed the hollow for a missing lower back molar tooth. This is now in
Rex GiIroy's possession. The owner of the tooth would have stood
at 10 feet tall.
In the Megalong Valley in the Blue Mountains NSW, a Mr P. Holman found in
ironstone protruding from a creek bank the deeply impressed print of a large
human-like foot. The print was that of the instep, with all 5 toes clearly
shown. This footprint measures 7 inches across the toes. Had the footprint
been complete it would have been at least 2 feet (60 cm in length,
appropriate to a 12 foot human. However, the largest footprint found on the
Blue Mountains must have belonged to a man 20 feet tall!
A set of 3 huge footprints was discovered near Mulgoa, south of Penrith,
N.S.W. These prints, each measuring 2 ft long and 7 inches across the toes,
are 6 ft. apart, indicating the stride of the 12 ft. giant who left them.
These prints were preserved by volcanic lava and ash flows which "occurred
millions of years" before man is supposed to have appeared on the Australian
continent (if one is to believe the evolutionary theory):
Noel Reeves found monstrous footprints near Kempsey, N.S.W. in sandstone
beds on the Upper Macleay River. One print shows toe 4 inches (10cm) long
and the total toe-span is 10 inches (25cm) - suggesting that the owner of
the print may have been 17 feet tall.
It is certain the Aborigines were not the first to reach Australia.
Anthropologists maintain mainland Aborigines are in fact quite recent
arrivals that ate their precessors who were akin to the New Guinea natives.
Aborigine themselves admit in their ancient folklore that this land was
inhabited by several groups of men, as well as giants, before they settled
here.
MORE GIANT RECORDS:
In an old book entitled "History And Antiquities Of Allerdale," there is an
account of a giant found in Cumberland, England, at an unknown date in the
middle ages. Called "A True Report of Hugh Hodson, of Thorneway," it states:
"The said gyant was buried four yards deep in the ground, which is now a
corn field. He was four yards and a half long, and was in complete armour;
his sword and battle-axe lying by him....his teeth were six inches long, and
two inches broad...." The bones of a twelve foot tall man were dug up in
1833 by a group of soldiers at Lompock Rancho, California. The skeleton was
surrounded by giant weapons, and the skull featured a double row of teeth.
Yet another giant was unearthed in 1891, when workmen in Crittenden, Arizona
excavated a huge stone coffin that had evidently once held the body of a man
12 feet tall. A carving on the granite case indicated that he had six toes.
A living giant was sighted in the little village of Buffalo Mills,
Pennsylvania, on August 19, 1973. A man at least nine feet tall strode down
the main street of the village, dressed in strange clothing, which appeared
to be made of some sort of shimmering material. He gazed at the startled
townspeople in a dark, penetrating way and then loped off casually into
oblivion.
OTHER GIANT EVIDENCES:
In July, 1877, four prospectors were looking for gold and silver
outcroppings in a desolate, hilly area near the head of Spring Valley, not
far from Eureka, Nevada.
Scanning the rocks, one of the men spotted something peculiar projecting
from a high ledge. Climbing up to get a better look, the prospector was
surprised to find a human legbone and knee cap sticking out of solid rock.
He called to his companions, and together they dislodged the oddity with
picks. Realizing they had a most unusual find, the men brought it into
Eureka, where it was placed on display.
The stone in which the bones were embedded was a hard, dark red quartzite,
and the bones themselves were almost black with carbonization - indicative
of great age. When the surrounding stone was carefully chipped away, the
specimen was found to be composed of a leg bone broken off four inches above
the knee, the knee cap and joint, the lower leg bones, and the complete
bones of the foot. Several medical doctors examined the remains, and were
convinced that anatomically they had indeed once belonged to a human being,
and a very modern-looking one.
But an intriguing aspect of the bones was their size: from knee to heel they
measured 39 inches. Their owner in life had thus stood over 12 feet tall.
Compounding the mystery further was the fact that the rock in which the
bones were found was dated geologically to the era of the dinosaurs, the
Jurassic - over 185 million years old. The local papers ran several stories
on the marvelous find, and two museums sent investigators to see if any more
of the skeleton could be located. Unfortunately, nothing else but the leg
and foot existed in the rock." Strange Relics from the Depths of the
Earth--Jochmans http://www.ior.com/~kjc/pages/strange.htm
EVEN MORE RECORDS OF GIANTS:
In 1936 Larson Kohl, the German paleontologist and anthropologist, found the
bones of gigantic men on the shore of Lake Elyasi in Central Africa. Other
giant skeletons were later found in Hava, the Transvaal and China. The
evidence for the existence of giants is incontrovertible. "A scientifically
assured fact," says Dr. Louis Burkhalter.
1. Large bones in stone graves in Williamson County and White County,
Tennessee. Discovered in the early 1800s, the average stature of
these giants was 7 feet tall.
2. Giant skeletons found in the mid-1800s in New York state near Rutland and
Rodman.
3. In 1833, soldiers digging at Lompock Rancho, California, discovered a
male skeleton 12 feet tall.
The skeleton was surrounded by caved shells, stone axes, other artifacts.
The skeleton had double rows of upper and lower teeth.
Unfortunately, this body was secretly buried because the local Indians
became upset about the remains.
4. A giant skull and vertebrae found in Wisconsin and Kansas City.
5. A giant found off the California Coast on Santa Rosa Island in the 1800s
was distinguished by its double rows of teeth.
6. A 9-foot, 8-inch skeleton was excavated from a mount near Brewersville,
Indiana, in 1879.
7. Skeletons of "enormous dimensions" were found in mounds near Zanesville,
Ohio, and Warren, Minnesota, in the 1880s.
8. In Clearwater Minnesota, the skeletons of seven giants were found in
mounds. These had receding foreheads and complete double dentition.
9. At Le Crescent, Wisconsin, mounds were found to contain giant bones. Five
miles north near Dresbach, the bones of people over 8 feet tall were found.
10. In 1888 seven skeletons ranging from seven to 8 feet tall were
discovered.
11. Near Toledo, Ohio, 20 skeletons were discovered with jaws and teeth
"twice as large as those of present day people."
The account also noted that odd hieroglyphics were found with the bodies.
12. Miners in Lovelock Cave, California, discovered a very tall, red-haired
mummy In 1911
13. This mummy eventually went to a fraternal lodge where it was used for
"initiation purposes."
14. In 1931, skeletons from 8 ½ to 10 feet long were found in the Humbolt
lake bed in California.
15. In 1932, Ellis Wright found human tracks in the gypsum rock at White
Sands, New Mexico
His discovery was later backed up by Fred Arthur, Supervisor of the Lincoln
National Park and others who reported that each footprint was 22 inches long
and from 8 to 10 inches wide. They were certain the prints were human in
origin due to the outline of the perfect prints coupled with a readily
apparent instep.
16. During World War II, author Ivan T. Sanderson tells of how his crew was
bulldozing through sedimentary rock when it stumbled upon what appeared to
be a graveyard.
In it were crania that measured from 22 to 24 inches from base to crown
nearly three times as large as an adult human skull.
Had the creatures to whom these skulls belonged been properly proportioned,
they undoubtedly would have been at least 12 feet tall or taller.
17. In 1947 a local newspaper reported the discovery of nine-foot-tall
skeletons by amateur archeologists working in Death Valley.
18. The archeologists involved also claimed to have found what appeared to
be the bones of tigers and dinosaurs with the human remains.
19. The Catalina Islands, off California, are the home of dwarf mammoth
bones that were once roasted in ancient fire pits.
These were roasted and eaten by human-like creatures who were giants with
double rows of teeth.
THE KOSSUTH GIANTS:
Kossuth: October was a month of some excitement in scientific circles as
seven strange and gigantic mummies were discovered just outside of Kossuth
Center. Marvin Rainwater, a local farmer, had been digging a new well on his
property and struck a deposit of very hard stone about nine feet below the
topsoil. In attempting to dig it out, he found that it was more than four
feet wide in every direction. Removing it would be a terrific chore. He
considered the possibility that this was a layer of bedrock, but that would
certainly be odd that close to the surface. Further, being somewhat familiar
with geologic deposits, he knew that the stone was not the familiar
limestone for which such Eastern Iowa areas like Stone City are famous. This
was something else entirely. Upon close inspection Rainwater also saw that
the stone was not as rough as might be expected in a natural formation, but
was in fact smooth and polished. Now very curious as to the nature of the
find, he called several friends from surrounding farms and they began an
excavation. They discovered that it was not a single stone, but rather one
of at least several irregularly cut slabs stretching out over a wide area,
yet fitted so tightly together that not even a knife blade could be put
between them. Each slab measured roughly 8'x10', and when struck with a
sledge seemed to ring with a hollowness that might indicate this was not a
floor but the outside portion of a ceiling. Rainwater wondered if he had not
stumbled upon some sort of buried stone structure on his property. Believing
that there might be a way to parlay living other than farming if he played
his cards right, Mr. Rainwater contacted Georg Von Podebrad College, who in
turn dispatched a team of archeologists, anthropologists, and geologists to
the site. The researchers were delighted with the anomalies presented them.
Firstly, the stone was not at all native to Iowa, but was in fact basalt-a
hard, dense volcanic rock composed of plagioclase, augite, and magnetite.
The type of stone used by the Egyptians to build their massive monuments.
The depth of the slabs indicated that they had been there for a very long
time, predating the advent of the kind of modern transportation and heavy
machinery needed to bring such a large quantity of foreign stone to Iowa,
and quite probably the slabs had been laid down before the last glacial age.
It is impossible to gauge with any certainty just how long they had been
there. After the soil covering the slabs had been entirely removed, the
area covered by the stones was a perfect square measuring 188 feet on each
side. Digging around the perimeter revealed that Rainwater had been correct,
the structure did go deeper into the ground. The cyclopean structure was
revealed to be a pyramid similar in shape to one located at Marietta, Ohio,
although those mounds and monuments erected by the prehistoric Indians were
made of sun dried brick mixed with rushes. This technique, too, is curiously
similar to the Egyptian technique of brick making with straw and mud. It
took many months, but the entire structure was finally exposed, and on the
eastern side was found a massive filled in archway with strong resemblance
to those of ancient Greece. At the bottom of the arch was a smaller arch,
measuring only 6' to the capstone. This too had been filled in and blocked
off. With genuine awe and some hesitancy the scientists of the Rainwater
Site began the work of opening the smaller entryway, wondering what light
from the first torch penetrated the gloom of the ancient structure, Albert
Grosslockner gasped at what he thought were seven huge and exquisitely
detailed statues seated in a ring around a very large and deep fire pit.
Moving closer, he realized that the figures were not carved of stone, but
were in fact the mummified remains of some giant humanoid race.
Could what they found be in fact a prehistoric burial vault for some pre-human
creatures or was it a prison designed to hold some freakish aberration of
nature? The figures, were each fully ten feet tall even when measured seated
in their cross-legged positions. They all faced into the circle with arms
folded across their legs. Upon close examination it was seen that they had
double rows of teeth in their upper and lower jaws. The foreheads were
unusually low and sloping, with exceedingly prominent brows. The skin of the
mysterious giants was wrinkled and tough, as though tanned, and the hair of
each of them was distinctly red in color. Their faces, still very expressive
even in death, taunted the scientists with their silence. Who, or what, were
these creatures, how had they come to be locked in this stone room, and
where had the stone itself come from originally? After careful excavation
of the site, the bodies were removed for x-ray and autopsy examination. The
excitement over the find was far in excess of the "Gypsum Man" find in Iowa
so many years before-a hoax from which the Putnam Museum of Davenport had
never fully recovered from. These giants were very real. The medical
examinations demonstrated that there was definite skeletal structure, that
they were organic creatures who had once been very much alive. One
explanation for the mummies might lie in the legends of the Paiute Indians
who tell of a race of red-haired giants who were their mortal enemies
centuries ago. They were called the Si-Te-Cahs, driven from Nevada by a
previously unheard of alliance of tribes. Did the Si-Te-Cahs retreat from
the west to Iowa? Was the stone structure here before and simply co-opted by
the giants? No one may ever know, however it is interesting to note that
among the Indian relics held in the Kossuth County chapter of the State
Historical Society are three robes made entirely from very long strands of
red hair. We await DNA comparisons of samples taken from the mummies and the
robes to determine a connection. In the mean-time, Marvin Rainwater has had
his farm purchased by interested parties in Hopkins Grove for an undisclosed
sum, and is quite happily no longer toiling in his fields or digging wells.
GIANT SKULLS FOUND:
Ivan T. Sanderson, a well-known zoologist and frequent guest on Johnny
Carson's TONIGHT SHOW in the 1960s (usually with an exotic animal with a
pangolin or a lemur), once related a curious story about a letter he
received regarding an engineer who was stationed on the Aleutian island of
Shemya during World War II. While building an airstrip, his crew bulldozed a
group of hills and discovered under several sedimentary layers what appeared
to be human remains. The Alaskan mound was in fact a graveyard of gigantic
human remains, consisting of crania and long leg bones. The crania measured
from 22 to 24 inches from base to crown. Since an adult skull normally
measures about eight inches from back to front, such a large crania would
imply an immense size for a normally proportioned human. Furthermore, every
skull was said to have been neatly trepanned (a process of cutting a hole in
the upper portion of the skull).
In fact, the habit of flattening the skull of an infant and forcing it to
grow in an elongated shape was a practice used by ancient Peruvians, the
Mayas, and the Flathead Indians of Montana. Sanderson tried to gather
further proof, eventually receiving a letter from another member of the unit
who confirmed the report. The letters both indicated that the Smithsonian
Institution had collected the remains, yet nothing else was heard. Sanderson
seemed convinced that the Smithsonian Institution had received the bizarre
relics, but wondered why they would not release the data. He asks, ""...is
it that these people cannot face rewriting all the textbooks?""
GIANT FOOTPRINTS:
In South Africa, a giant footprint of a woman measuring over 4 feet long has
been carbon dated at aproximately 9 million years old. Pointing to the
probability of this being a female human-like species' foot, proportionally
the two-legged being would need to be some 30 feet tall! The local African
people commonly refer to this as a highly revered and sacred site. Giants,
twice the size of gorillas, were found in Java.
The petrified remains of a giant were found in South Africa. A well-known
anthropologist declared that these remains showed that these man's ancestors
must have been giants.
GIANT DEVILS:
Within an ancient burial mound near the town of Sayre in Bradford County,
Pennsylvania, skeletons measuring approximately 7 feet in length were
discovered in the 1800s. But the most remarkable feature of these tall
skeletons was not their height, but the strange horn-like protrusions above
the brow region on their skulls. It was estimated that they were buried
around 1200 AD. According to some sources, the skeletons were sent to the
"American Investigating Museum" in Philadelphia, and vanished.
REVISED ARTICLES:
In Lampec-Rancho California, in 1833, soldiers discovered a skeleton 11' 9''
long which was covered with boulders with an unidentified writing. A similar
writing was unearthed on the isle of Santa Maria off the cost of Los
Angeles. In July of 1887 in Eureka Nevada, a human leg was found measuring
38.9 inches form the knee to the heel. The man was over 11 foot tall. In
Crittenton Arizona in 1891 a sarcophagus was uncovered containing a human 3
meters high and had 12 toes. More recently skeletons ranging from 2.8 meters
to 3.12 meters were found by soviets in the Caucasus Mountains. In China
skeletons 10 feet tall have been found. In the Philippines a giant human
skeleton was found at gargation, Measuring 17 feet long. In the Eagle three
Cole mine at Bear Creek Montana in 1920 two human molars were found three
times larger than normal. In Braton Tennessee human footprints were found in
solid rock 33 inches log and one foot wide. These also have six toes each.
Tools found in Morocco are so large their users must have been at least 12
foot tall. Other Giants found around the world are: the Java giant, the south China giant, and the South Africa giant. (See The Timeless Earth p. 26)
In 1833,soldiers digging a pit for a powder magazine at Lompock
Rancho, California, hacked their way through a layer of cemented gravel and
came up with the skeleton of a giant man about twelve feet tall. The skeleton
was surrounded by carved shells, huge stone axes, and blocks of porphyry
covered with unintelligible symbols. The giant was also noteworthy in still
another respect :He had a double row of teeth, both upper and lower.
When the natives began to attach some religious significance to the find,
authorities ordered the skeleton and all the artifacts secretly reburied-
and , of course ,lost to the scientific study they deserved.
This particular giant, incidentally, bore marked similarity to another, that
of a giant man with double rows of teeth whose skeletal remains were dug up
on Santa Rosa Island, off the California coast. Subsequent research has
shown that he, or his descendants, feasted on the small elephants which once
lived on that island and which have vanished like the giants who ate them,
countless ages ago.
Near Crittenden, Arizona, in 1891, workmen excavating for a commercial
building came upon a huge stone sarcophagus eight feet below the surface. The
contractor called in expert help, and the sarcophagus was opened to reveal a
granite mummy case which had once held the body of a human being more than
twelve feet tall -a human with six toes, according to the carving of the
case. But the body had been buried so many thousands of years that it had
long since turned to dust. Just another silent witness to the truth of
Genesis, which tells us that there were giants in the earth in those
days, the excavation of over a dozen skeletons 8 to 12 feet tall, around the world, shocked archeologists.
These skeletons were positively human. Some of these skeletal remains are on Maui
in lava caves near Ulupalakua and Olowalu. An example of this is the "mysterious"
disappearance of more than 50 perfectly kept gigantic antediluvian skeletons
(between 10-14 feet tall) found in a cave in Arizona.
Earth Giants : over the years a number of gigantic human skeletons have been
unearthed. The most distinctive of these were the remains of some American
giants found in the 1880s at Tioga Point, near Sayre in Bradford County,
Pennsylvania, as recounted by Robert Lyman in Forbidden Land. Some other
examples include the following:
A decayed human skeleton claimed by eyewitnesses to measure around 3.28
metres (10 feet 9 inches tall), was unearthed by labourers while ploughing a
vineyard in November 1856 in East Wheeling, now in West Virginia.
A human skeleton measuring 3.6 metres (12 foot) tall was unearthed at
Lompock Rancho, California, in 1833 by soldiers digging in a pit for a
powder magazine. The specimen had a double row of teeth and was surrounded
by numerous stone axes, carved shells and porphyry blocks with abstruse
symbols associated with it.
Several mummified remains of red haired humans ranging from 2-2.5 metres
(6.5 feet to over 8 feet) tall were dug up at Lovelock Cave, (70 miles)
north-east of Reno, Nevada, by a guano mining operation. These bones
substantiated legends by the local Piute Indians regarding giants which they
called Si-Te-Cahs. For some reason scientists did not seem to want to
investigate these finds further so many of the bones were lost. Fortunately
one of the giant Lovelock skulls is still preserved today. It measures
almost 30cm (1 foot) tall and resides along with other various Lovelock
artefacts in the Humboldt Museum in Winnemucca, Nevada. Some of these
artefacts can also be found in the Nevada State Historical Society's museum
at Reno.
THE HUBBARD DISCOVERY:
In this magazine for September, 1923, we mentioned a reported discovery by
Mr. Samuel Hubbard, of remains of giants in the Grand Canyon of Arizona.
Owing to press unreliability, we did not notice this to a great extent. We
have now, however, obtained more knowledge on the subject, and there remains
no doubt that Mr. Hubbard has actually made a discovery composed of the
following parts:
(a) Petrified bodies of two human beings about 18 and 15 feet in height
respectively. One of these is buried under a recent rock fall which would
require several days' work to remove; the other, of which Mr. Hubbard took
photographs, is in a crevice of difficult accessibility. The bodies are
formed of a limestone petrification embedded in sandstone.
(b) An ancient beach, now sandstone, containing a great number of footprints
of a giant race, men, women and children; the prints of adults about 17 to
20 inches in length, and corresponding in size and shape to the Carson City
and Blue Ridge prints.
EVEN MORE GIANT RECORDS:
According to a press clipping, dated Nayarit, Mexico, May 14, 1926, Capts.
D. W. Page and F. W. Devalda discovered the bones of a race of giants who
averaged over ten feet in height. Local legends state that they came from
Ecuador. Nothing more has been heard of this, but that is not surprising;
the word "giant" will flutter the feathers of any scientist into rapid
flight, metaphorically speaking, in the opposite direction. So also with a
report from the Washington Post, June 22, 1925, and the New York
Herald-Tribune, June 21, 1925. A mining party, it is reported, found
skeletons measuring 10 to 12 feet, with feet 18 to 20 inches long, near
Sisoguiche, Mexico. The Los Angeles Times, October 2, 1927, says that
explorers in Mexico located large human bones near Tapextla, indicating a
race of "gigantic size." All this, if unfounded, would be straining
coincidence or imagination pretty far.
Press accounts say that the skeleton of a gigantic man, with head missing,
has been unearthed at El Boquin, on the Mico River, in the Chontales
district. The ribs are a yard long and four inches wide and the shin bone is
too heavy for one man to carry. "Chontales" is an Indian word, meaning "wild
men."
In the late 1950's during road construction in Homs southeast Turkey, Many
tombs of Giants were indeed unearthed. These tombs were 4 meters long, and
when enterd in 2 cases the human thigh bones were measured to be 47.24
inches in length. They calculated that the person who owned this Femur
probably stood at fourteen to sixteen feet tall. A cast of this bone is seen
at the Creationist museum in Texas.
Flavius Josephus, the noted Jewish historian of the first century A.D.,
described the giants as having "bodies so large and countenances so entirely
different from other men that they were surprising to the sight and terrible
to the hearing." And he adds that in his day, the bones of the giants were
still on display!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: THIS INFORMATION WAS TAKEN FROM VARIOUS SOURCES
AND NOT EDITED IN ANY WAY.
-submitted by John Williams
https://www.history.com/news/bones-viking-descendants-italy
Article below from link above, emphasis in article mine.
'Massive' Bones of Viking Descendants Found in an Italian Graveyard
Around 800 years ago, 10 people were laid to rest in a cemetery on the Italian island of Sicily. Three were women, two were children. But it was the male skeletons that caught the attention of local archaeologists who uncovered the bones earlier this year. They were far larger than the bones of "normal" Sicilians, with what one archaeologist called a "massive" build.
These hulking skeletons are believed to have been the descendants of Vikings who colonized northern France and, later, southern Italy and Sicily.
A new paper published in the journal Science in Poland describes how a team of researchers uncovered the skeletons—and how the Norse seafarers made it all the way to Sicily.
Throughout the 8th and 9th century, Vikings began traveling south from Scandinavia to raid the monasteries and towns of what is today France. By 911, they were so present, and ferocious, that the French king was forced to cede part of northern France to them. Some Vikings settled there permanently, eventually becoming known as the Normans—Norse men—of Normandy. Later, the same Viking spirit saw them traveling throughout the continent, on expeditions to the United Kingdom and southern Italy.
"In the second half of the 11th century," lead researcher Sławomir Moździoch explained in a statement, "[Sicily] was recaptured from the Arabs by a Norman nobleman, Roger de Hauteville."
It's believed that these skeletons were the descendants of de Hauteville and his crew. Though no artifacts were found around the bones, Moździoch says, "Some of the dead buried in the cemetery were undoubtedly members of the elites or the clergy, as the form of some of the graves indicates."
The graveyard is close to the ruins of a church, which researchers believe may also have been built by Norman conquerors. This was fortified and built on a hill, for better vantage in times of war, while the architecture is a far more Western European style than is usual for the region, Moździoch said.
Sicily has a checkered history. It's been variously conquered by, and taken from, the Germanic Vandal tribe, Muslim Byzantine forces, the Normans and Vikings, and the Spanish kings. But it's perhaps most famous for being the birthplace of the Sicilian mafia, the organized crime syndicate known for their ruthlessness. How many of its members have Viking blood running through their veins, however, is a question for the ages.
Funny the article won't tell us the estimated size the people would have been, just that they were far larger and more massive than normal.
Amazing how these bones "crumble into dust" whenever found, or are otherwise absent. I think I know why.
: The Barbarian Sat Feb 29, 2020 - 16:20:05
Amazing how these bones "crumble into dust" whenever found, or are otherwise absent. I think I know why.
Yes, that is strange. Highly suggestive of either very common folk lore maintained by a wide variety of educated and non educated alike throughout history, or a massive cover up of actual evidence. In this world either scenario is fairly common. Many accounts recorded do speak of institutions, the Smithsonian the most prominent I believe, taking or receiving the bones for examination. This being the last time they were ever heard or seen again.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbxXAHQzyxA
Interesting video which seems to be showing some kind of outdoor museum in Thailand, where the bones of a giant are on display where they were discovered, still half in the ground. Don't know much else about the place.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcofidHKjeg
Another video with an apparent giant skeleton. Have no idea what is being said in the video though, as it is in a foreign language. They could be saying it is a replica for all I know. Anyone understand what is being said, to enlighten the rest of us?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3cl6fFMCks
This one looks large to me, but can't really tell or understand what is being said.
: Amo Sat Mar 07, 2020 - 17:21:39
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcofidHKjeg
Another video with an apparent giant skeleton. Have no idea what is being said in the video though, as it is in a foreign language. They could be saying it is a replica for all I know. Anyone understand what is being said, to enlighten the rest of us?
"Five months was "Long Anton" in Nuremberg. Today, the 7.8 foot giant has returned."
So pretty big, but there have been bigger humans in recent history.
http://www.sydhav.no/giants/newspapers.htm
Te above link has some old newspaper articles about giant skeletons being found. Interesting.
The following links are just some of the photos found when I did a search for old newspaper articles about giants. To see quite a few more, just type the same in your search engine and select images among the results.
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&id=F9A0ED23EF2C75F48DA0298169E090A4CB564DDB&thid=OIP.FEkN2bTJ3eZvNnRbMw4ctQAAAA&mediaurl=https%3A%2F%2Fendtimebibleprophecy.files.wordpress.com%2F2013%2F10%2Fgiants-skeletons-found-4-may-1908.jpg%3Fw%3D830&exph=489&expw=377&q=old+newspaper+articles+about+giants&selectedindex=0&ajaxhist=0&vt=0
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&id=9F1849FDAD1456A82337F4E93EC7B306F3E57676&thid=OIP.v6mMRVnf-1saGxZCplaN5gAAAA&mediaurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sydhav.no%2Fgiants%2Fred_river_valley_mound.gif&exph=241&expw=300&q=old+newspaper+articles+about+giants&selectedindex=2&ajaxhist=0&vt=0
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&id=9F1849FDAD1456A823375D1EEDF0FD8D1C48B135&thid=OIP.fVvHlOzc9CCpnZFMaqXXXAAAAA&mediaurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sydhav.no%2Fgiants%2Fwisconsin_mound_kjempe_arti.gif&exph=326&expw=300&q=old+newspaper+articles+about+giants&selectedindex=6&ajaxhist=0&vt=0
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&id=1785B670F5A05B20DB811487240CD9E13998F981&thid=OIP.BnieevUEcluhwYv7n6IrxQHaJQ&mediaurl=https%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-6AaoGj74UUE%2FVzn8pkerrSI%2FAAAAAAAAJcA%2F_p61UwUtYak1bIzvhNxt0MzMkx2QWy36QCK4B%2Fs1600%2F1-Bisbee%252BDaily%252BReview%252BGIANT%252BSKELETON%252BFOUND%252BIN%252BMEXICO.jpg&exph=1081&expw=865&q=old+newspaper+articles+about+giants&selectedindex=6&ajaxhist=0&vt=1&ccid=BnieevUE&simid=608025252503814471
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=ZuyqKF6O&id=F9A0ED23EF2C75F48DA0E7FB9BAD26FED9716CFD&thid=OIP.ZuyqKF6OwW1vNMxTpGdDhAAAAA&mediaurl=https%3A%2F%2Fendtimebibleprophecy.files.wordpress.com%2F2013%2F10%2Fgiant-skeletons-found-new-york-times-11-february-1902.jpg&exph=762&expw=396&q=old+newspaper+articles+about+giants&simid=607988650789765796&selectedindex=4&ajaxhist=0&vt=1
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=eTOrwOWe&id=2470AB1E066675082F7D0F18EC9A4BA7358205FA&thid=OIP.eTOrwOWeiFDMNj9y5i9YnAAAAA&mediaurl=https%3A%2F%2Fs-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com%2F236x%2Fed%2Fa7%2Fde%2Feda7de02e60c019506885250608ffc07--old-newspapers-nephilim-giants.jpg&exph=378&expw=236&q=old+newspaper+articles+about+giants&simid=607996265791359938&selectedindex=7&ajaxhist=0&vt=1
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=dWz2Sb6E&id=1785B670F5A05B20DB81764F42048A2C8415F0A0&thid=OIP.dWz2Sb6EP1lGd4n5XC9R8QHaIT&mediaurl=https%3a%2f%2f1.bp.blogspot.com%2f-i1BL1fRUG_M%2fVzn8pOkZXoI%2fAAAAAAAAJbs%2foefpC6CqTBcp-nFCTyZtSWDVuV0TNc4KQCK4B%2fs400%2f11-The%252BDaily%252BGate%252BCity%252BGIANT%252527S%252BSKELETON%252BPOUND%252BOUT%252BWEST.jpg&exph=400&expw=357&q=old+newspaper+articles+about+giants&simid=608036522545185344&selectedIndex=9&ajaxhist=0
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=V0Rmo6f5&id=9F1849FDAD1456A823374C10A576C48B48E0A40D&thid=OIP.V0Rmo6f5WG4bg895ieeXVAAAAA&mediaurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sydhav.no%2Fgiants%2Fohio_mound_seven_feet.gif&exph=413&expw=300&q=old+newspaper+articles+about+giants&simid=608036011431627641&selectedindex=10&ajaxhist=0&vt=1
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=LiyqDI2M&id=7038FECD163711BB0201A9A2BE645A3D66D5ADA9&thid=OIP.LiyqDI2MlsxJkaDwPFVpsAAAAA&mediaurl=https%3A%2F%2Fs-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com%2F736x%2F18%2Fba%2F02%2F18ba02af1a1539f1817119f796b84d4f--old-newspaper-articles-giant-skeleton.jpg&exph=632&expw=194&q=old+newspaper+articles+about+giants&simid=608016293225368441&selectedindex=14&ajaxhist=0&vt=1
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=NK193q9C&id=9F1849FDAD1456A82337CDA7E92A9D115CB15DDA&thid=OIP.NK193q9CEt2qr7i39bA1HQHaED&mediaurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sydhav.no%2Fgiants%2Farticle_skeleton_bever_fall.jpg&exph=137&expw=250&q=old+newspaper+articles+about+giants&simid=608052796108767259&selectedindex=25&ajaxhist=0&vt=1
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=5pRwwmeg&id=1785B670F5A05B20DB81B000126D6A2568F1ED42&thid=OIP.5pRwwmeg4txsy0hjv8mKXwHaHa&mediaurl=http%3a%2f%2f3.bp.blogspot.com%2f-5DJRne0GFzU%2fVzn8n5xIdLI%2fAAAAAAAAJZ8%2fsgGqKJUA29wc0NihtXPJmglTP-UU_W_gQCK4B%2fs1600%2f9-Twice-a-Week%252BPlain%252BDealer%252BGiant%252BSkeleton%252BIs%252BFound.jpg&exph=1000&expw=1000&q=old+newspaper+articles+about+giants&simid=608044936348437718&selectedIndex=22&ajaxhist=0
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=njeq8cAv&id=30A85C2CCC989674381D65C188B844F9C834E1F3&thid=OIP.njeq8cAvpxsoyFgNDNPHSwAAAA&mediaurl=https%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-C--8tpcrMwQ%2FWrAWX4JAYYI%2FAAAAAAACgMY%2F1AaiQEyZTg8AmcJVahNhRKRJhdGCLLBUgCLcBGAs%2Fs1600%2F9_Feet_tall_giant_mound_builder_skeleton_Nephilim_Braden_Oklahoma_4.jpg&exph=516&expw=465&q=old+newspaper+articles+about+giants&simid=608028417852638998&selectedindex=26&ajaxhist=0&vt=1
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=4QPYxris&id=EAE7498EA2C5A82E0EC7C0C82414260D0B5DEE7D&thid=OIP.4QPYxris0OOBNWAmhlZ8EwAAAA&mediaurl=https%3A%2F%2Fancientpatriarchs.files.wordpress.com%2F2016%2F04%2Fgiantsathensusa.jpg&exph=669&expw=432&q=old+newspaper+articles+about+giants&simid=608028941845400991&selectedindex=45&ajaxhist=0&vt=1
Still no actual evidence, but lots of newspaper stories? I think I know why.
Dr. Barry Fell, a New Zealander, linguist, and Harvard trained archaeologist, wrote a book called America, B.C. back in the 1970's and updated it later. He documented early travelers to the Americas from Europe prior to the Vikings and Columbus.
Western schools of archaeology and anthropology try to smear Dr. Fell's research, some of them even claiming there is no Ogam script found in the Americas (which Dr. Fell blows their hype apart with evidence of Ogam engraved on stone in New England). They just don't like anyone playing with their Evolutionist theories, falsely claiming the ancients were a bunch of backward primitive cave dwellers.
https://ancientamerica.com/category/ogham-2/
http://viewzone2.com/ogam.html
https://faculty.ucr.edu/~legneref/bronze/westva.htm
https://faculty.ucr.edu/~legneref/bronze/westva_files/image001.gif (https://faculty.ucr.edu/~legneref/bronze/westva_files/image001.gif)
: dpr Sun Mar 15, 2020 - 18:23:27
Dr. Barry Fell, a New Zealander, linguist, and Harvard trained archaeologist, wrote a book called America, B.C. back in the 1970's and updated it later. He documented early travelers to the Americas from Europe prior to the Vikings and Columbus.
Western schools of archaeology and anthropology try to smear Dr. Fell's research, some of them even claiming there is no Ogam script found in the Americas (which Dr. Fell blows their hype apart with evidence of Ogam engraved on stone in New England). They just don't like anyone playing with their Evolutionist theories, falsely claiming the ancients were a bunch of backward primitive cave dwellers.
Actually, evolution has nothing whatever to do with this. Polynesian sailors, beginning about 30,000 BC, explored the Pacific, and reached the Americas; their easternmost settlement being Easter Island.
It's highly likely that St. Brendan, before the Vikings, reached North America. None of this supports the idea of a race of giants.
Barbarian,
How about leaving human beings out of the discussion fro a moment and tell me if you think this is "fake news"
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/aug/14/human-sized-penguin-fossil-discovered-in-new-zealand
: Rella Mon Mar 16, 2020 - 10:34:12
Barbarian,
How about leaving human beings out of the discussion fro a moment and tell me if you think this is "fake news"
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/aug/14/human-sized-penguin-fossil-discovered-in-new-zealand
Yes. Because New Zealand is a large land area, but isolated from the rest of the world by a wide stretch of ocean, the only land mammals to get there before humans were bats. So there were no mammalian predators to be concerned about. Initially, there were no large marine mammals or land predators, and so many species of birds became huge, and most of them flightless. There was also a large burrowing bat, that seems to have spent most of its time walking around. There were a number of big penquins; the fossils are well-known.
Huge, grazing moas, all sorts of kiwis, a truly gigantic eagle that seemed to live on moas, and so on. The eagles and moas were still around when the Maoris arrived, but they died out shortly after. Moas must have been a tempting food item, and humans probably found the eagles to be dangerous enough to kill whenever possible. And when they killed off the moas, the eagle's food supply was gone.
: The Barbarian Mon Mar 16, 2020 - 10:14:32
Actually, evolution has nothing whatever to do with this. Polynesian sailors, beginning about 30,000 BC, explored the Pacific, and reached the Americas; their easternmost settlement being Easter Island.
It's highly likely that St. Brendan, before the Vikings, reached North America. None of this supports the idea of a race of giants.
This thread goes beyond just giants or not, as is obvious by now. It addresses the false narratives of history now extent as well, aided by the false deep time evolution scenario.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_tTehE4ILA
While I don't agree with everything the above video postulates, it addresses very real problems with evolution and the widely accepted historical narratives of the day. I'm not inclined to agree with the videos statements concerning the dividing of the world, or the need of satanic influence for the advanced intellect and accomplishments of the antediluvians. This is not to say that there was not any either. No doubt far more knowledge has been lost than we have begun to regain through time, much of that knowledge was applicable in a different world as well. Which change itself would account for much lost or no longer applicable knowledge while the world devolved and lost even that knowledge which was still applicable in a very changed world and environment. There is, has been, and will continue to be observable, testable scientific evidence which completely contradicts the historical and evolutionary narrative people today are being told is fact. So be it. The father of lies and all of his minions will be exposed in the end.
Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. 12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Those who reject the bibles creation and historical accounts, reject the very building blocks of biblical faith. These are they which have produced the false theory of evolution and the false historical narratives widely accepted today. Never mind the glaring contradictions to the same which do exist.
: Amo Fri Mar 20, 2020 - 11:09:48
This thread goes beyond just giants or not, as is obvious by now. It addresses the false narratives of history now extent as well,
As you see, we debunked pretty much all the "ancient giant" false narratives. And the ones that turned out to be possibly true, were of skeletons smaller than the largest known modern humans.
aided by the false deep time evolution scenario.
Has nothing whatever to do with evolution or deep time. Your stories tell about things just a few thousand years ago.
: The Barbarian Fri Mar 20, 2020 - 11:45:39
As you see, we debunked pretty much all the "ancient giant" false narratives. And the ones that turned out to be possibly true, were of skeletons smaller than the largest known modern humans.
Has nothing whatever to do with evolution or deep time. Your stories tell about things just a few thousand years ago.
The infamous Barbarian "As you see" proclamation. Many of us do not share your delusional rantings to the effect that your arguments have proved anything. You haven't debunked anything or even addressed all of the accounts supplied. You have simply chosen to believe that a very large number of people throughout history decided to perpetrate the same prank over and over, rather than believing a few people in powerful institutions have chosen to hide or destroy evidence which would contradict their chosen theories concerning our origins. That is all.
Playing ignorant concerning the effects of proved devolution of humanity upon the present widely accepted narratives of deep time evolution and the history of humanity, changes nothing. It does however, suggest that you are not nearly as intelligent as you make yourself out to be in your arguments. If you cannot see the obvious effect such would have upon your precious theory, this certainly explains why you seem to exercise such blind faith in it.
The following video addresses another discovery which creates big problems concerning the same. As usual, aliens are one suggested explanation which I do not subscribe to, and the evidence found, examined, and written about has disappeared.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6I0HQ_x-xfA
An informative sermon addressing scripture and advanced antediluvians.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pz9UohQYEfI
: Amo Fri Mar 20, 2020 - 20:50:42
You have simply chosen to believe that a very large number of people throughout history decided to perpetrate the same prank over and over, rather than believing a few people in powerful institutions have chosen to hide or destroy evidence which would contradict their chosen theories concerning our origins. That is all.
It comes down to evidence. The likelihood that huge numbers of people were engaged in a multigenerational, international conspiracy is much less than the likelihood that a much smaller number of people made up stories for which they had no evidence.
Playing ignorant concerning the effects of proved devolution of humanity
People are measurably smarter now than they were a hundred years ago. Sports records continue to fall. Doesn't sound like "devolution" (which doesn't exist).
It does however, suggest that you are not nearly as intelligent as you make yourself out to be in your arguments.
Well, you know how dumb old barbarians are...
Carry on with your aliens or whatever. When you get some facts, come on back and show us.
: The Barbarian Fri Mar 20, 2020 - 22:19:10
It comes down to evidence. The likelihood that huge numbers of people were engaged in a multigenerational, international conspiracy is much less than the likelihood that a much smaller number of people made up stories for which they had no evidence.
People are measurably smarter now than they were a hundred years ago. Sports records continue to fall. Doesn't sound like "devolution" (which doesn't exist).
Well, you know how dumb old barbarians are...
Carry on with your aliens or whatever. When you get some facts, come on back and show us.
Plenty of evidence has been supplied, you simply deny all and any which will not fit your chosen faith. You know my position does not include aliens, but scripture alone. Where did you get the people from 100 years ago to measure against people today in determining people today are smarter? Temporary improvements in health and stature due to increased knowledge and tech, do not equal evolution. To the contrary, these facts are directly in line with the notion that we are just now attaining to knowledge and tech we once already had. You have been supplied with many facts on this thread and other boards which you simply reject.
There is absolutely no question about the fact, that superior societies of old were built upon by less superior societies of later dates as increasingly new evidence ever increasingly reveals. You simply deny it and all artifacts which defy your false narrative, and declare all accounts given by those personally involved as lies, while clinging to the theories of those you choose by faith over and above the same. So be it. Like it or not, human artifacts of a high tech nature and tools found in solid rock or in coal said to be tens of thousands or millions of years old according to your false narrative, do trash the same. Some of which demonstrate a metallurgy, not even possible in our present atmosphere. Megalithic structures of the past which we would be hard pressed to build to day if we could at all, also suggest your narrative to be false, especially when there is evidence that less advanced societies built upon these more ancient ones, as is often the case. Go to, burry your head into the deep time sands of evolutionary theory and false historical narratives. This will change nothing.
: Amo Sat Mar 21, 2020 - 10:50:48
Plenty of evidence has been supplied, you simply deny all and any which will not fit your chosen faith. You know my position does not include aliens, but scripture alone.
Probably a bad idea for you to be citing alien believers, then. As you learned, those "giant skeletons" all mysteriously disappear, and the ones that are real, are shorter than the tallest known modern humans.
Where did you get the people from 100 years ago to measure against people today in determining people today are smarter?
IQ tests. The Binet test is over a hundred years old, now. It takes a much higher score on the Binet today, to get an IQ of 100. The test results are normalized, so the average result gets a 100.
Temporary improvements in health and stature due to increased knowledge and tech, do not equal evolution.
Right. We're larger and smarter now, mainly because of better education, nutrition, and health care. There is no "devolution", and out improvements in fitness are too sudden and too great be merely by evolution.
To the contrary, these facts are directly in line with the notion that we are just now attaining to knowledge and tech we once already had. You have been supplied with many facts on this thread and other boards which you simply reject.
There is absolutely no question about the fact, that superior societies of old were built upon by less superior societies of later dates as increasingly new evidence ever increasingly reveals.
The problem is that "evidence" somehow always fails to turn up when requested. I'm pretty sure I know why.
So be it. Like it or not, human artifacts of a high tech nature and tools found in solid rock or in coal said to be tens of thousands or millions of years old according to your false narrative, do trash the same.
Nope. None of those were found in undisturbed rock. It was always in a crevice or in recent deposits. Show us one that isn't and we'll take a look at it.
Some of which demonstrate a metallurgy, not even possible in our present atmosphere.
But you don't have any examples available to test? I think I know why.
Megalithic structures of the past which we would be hard pressed to build to day if we could at all,
But you can't name even one? I think I know why.
: The Barbarian Sat Mar 21, 2020 - 11:31:27
Probably a bad idea for you to be citing alien believers, then. As you learned, those "giant skeletons" all mysteriously disappear, and the ones that are real, are shorter than the tallest known modern humans.
IQ tests. The Binet test is over a hundred years old, now. It takes a much higher score on the Binet today, to get an IQ of 100. The test results are normalized, so the average result gets a 100.
Right. We're larger and smarter now, mainly because of better education, nutrition, and health care. There is no "devolution", and out improvements in fitness are too sudden and too great be merely by evolution.
The problem is that "evidence" somehow always fails to turn up when requested. I'm pretty sure I know why.
Nope. None of those were found in undisturbed rock. It was always in a crevice or in recent deposits. Show us one that isn't and we'll take a look at it.
But you don't have any examples available to test? I think I know why.
But you can't name even one? I think I know why.
Repeating nonsense, never makes it anything else. You have chosen a faith which denies basic biblical teaching in the creation and flood. You therefore deny any and all evidence which could support the same, and or the fact that a great many people wish to cover all such evidence up, and have been caught attempting to do so in the past. Determining all such declarations as false by all the liars as you see it, who actually believe scripture. Choosing instead to believe the testimony of a great many of whom are straight up atheists, or at the least deny the same biblical testimony that you do. So be it. You are fighting a war which you cannot win, though in this world you may think you are winning various battles and skirmishes. In the end, all who have fought against the testimony of God in the scriptures, will realize their folly to late for most unfortunately.
Ecc 1:2
Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity. 3 What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun? 4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever. 5 The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose. 6 The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits. 7 All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again. 8 All things are full of labour; man cannot utter it: the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing. 9
The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. 10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us. 11 There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.In willing and chosen ignorance concerning the word of God in the testimony of holy scripture, you think we have now attained to some new and great level of existence and or technology. You have bought into and sell a completely false narrative in relation to the same. As the above scriptures testify, your false speculations and observations will be proved vanity in time according to the testimony of God's word. Your stance is not enlightened, it is ignorant. Fallen humanity apart from the testimony God has provided for them is not enlightened, to the contrary, there is no light in them.
Isa 8:20
To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word,
it is because there is no light in them.Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11
For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Gen 4:16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden. 17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch:
and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch. 18 And unto Enoch was born Irad: and Irad begat Mehujael: and Mehujael begat Methusael: and Methusael begat Lamech. 19 And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah. 20 And Adah bare Jabal:
he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle. 21 And his brother's name was Jubal:
he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ. 22 And Zillah, she also bare Tubalcain,
an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron: and the sister of Tubalcain was Naamah.
Gen 6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. 3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. 4
There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. 5
And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
Gen 6:14
Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch. 15 And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits. 16 A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it. 17
And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.Gen 9:18 And the sons of Noah, that went forth of the ark, were Shem, and Ham, and Japheth: and Ham is the father of Canaan. 19
These are the three sons of Noah: and of them was the whole earth overspread.Evolution is a farce. Humanity was created by God at the end of the creation of this world on the sixth day of creation. Man was made upright and fully mentally and physically capable of exercising dominion over this entire earth. Even after the fall, humanity immediately began building cities, farming and herding cattle and other animals as well, making and playing and composing music, and fully competent in metallurgy. They were highly advanced and capable but their thoughts and intents became evil only. Living long lives and having such talents to employ for evil purposes only, God decided to destroy most of humanity and the world and start over again. This, knowing full well of the loss of knowledge and ability that would accompany such a decision and exercise. Noah's descendants rapidly spread across the world and no doubt still maintained some of the pre-flood knowledge and know how. Which knowledge and know how quickly diminished as humanity and societies devolved in a world which would no longer support the longer life, or physical size and stamina of the antediluvians. Just as the physical and fossilized record of very large plants and animals of the past testify.
You reject all of this biblical testimony and any evidence supporting the same because you have chosen another faith. Your faith is in the unenlightened speculations and faulty observations of fallen humanity in direct contradiction to the testimony of scripture. So be it. Deny what you will and pretend that the scriptures do not say any of these things. This is the delusion which you have chosen, no one has forced it upon you. All who place such idols before the God of heaven and earth revealed in scripture, do so at their own peril. Repent!
Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.Why will you reject the testimony of God's word through His chosen prophets in the contradiction of fallen humanities wild speculations?
2Ti 3:10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, 11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 13
But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known
the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epW0wWScESQ
The above link is to another video yet again attributing advanced tech discovered were it should not be according to a false time scale to aliens, rather than the antediluvians. It is once again a metal object of mixed alloy which the prevalent false historical narrative does not allow for, but scripture itself explains.
: The Barbarian Mon Mar 16, 2020 - 10:14:32
Actually, evolution has nothing whatever to do with this. Polynesian sailors, beginning about 30,000 BC, explored the Pacific, and reached the Americas; their easternmost settlement being Easter Island.
It's highly likely that St. Brendan, before the Vikings, reached North America. None of this supports the idea of a race of giants.
Actually the theory of evolution has everything... to do with mainstream archaeology's smear campaign against what they call Diffusionism. I choose to believe God's Word as written, and what God shows happened is that at the tower of Babel event He confused the one tongue all peoples spoke, and then scattered the peoples to the four corners of the earth. At least archaeology agrees with how the American Indians got the Americas, via the Bering Strait. That supports Diffusionism, not evolution. It supports pre-Columbian travelers to the Americas. What the Harvard school of archaeology and Smithsonian Institute mostly support is the idea that the separate continents were like tadpoles developing in separate ponds, with no contact with each other. That idea is in alignment with the theory of evolution.
: dpr Mon Mar 30, 2020 - 09:35:39
Actually the theory of evolution has everything... to do with mainstream archaeology's smear campaign against what they call Diffusionism. I choose to believe God's Word as written, and what God shows happened is that at the tower of Babel event He confused the one tongue all peoples spoke, and then scattered the peoples to the four corners of the earth. At least archaeology agrees with how the American Indians got the Americas, via the Bering Strait. That supports Diffusionism, not evolution. It supports pre-Columbian travelers to the Americas. What the Harvard school of archaeology and Smithsonian Institute mostly support is the idea that the separate continents were like tadpoles developing in separate ponds, with no contact with each other. That idea is in alignment with the theory of evolution.
Maybe it's time you told us what you think the four key elements of evolutionary theory are, and how it relates to whatever has you upset here. Tell us about it.
https://www.facebook.com/greaterancestors/photos/a.155123127845912/2926758484015682/
https://greaterancestors.com/giant-arrowheads/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjDOqjbCXe4
Hmmmm. Giant arrowheads and instruments from mound builders who are so very often identified with giants in the many historical articles claiming to have found their bones.
: Amo Fri Apr 03, 2020 - 10:57:51
https://www.facebook.com/greaterancestors/photos/a.155123127845912/2926758484015682/
https://greaterancestors.com/giant-arrowheads/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjDOqjbCXe4
Hmmmm. Giant arrowheads and instruments from mound builders who are so very often identified with giants in the many historical articles claiming to have found their bones.
Very cool.
Wonder what Barbarian will come up with as to who used these large pieces.
The Hopewell culture created a series of gigantic earthworks across southern Ohio between A.D.1 and 400.
One of the largest of these was the Hopewell Mound Group, now part of Hopewell Culture National Historical Park in Ross County. This is where archaeologists first recognized the distinctive characteristics of this ancient American Indian culture, which they named after the site.
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The largest mound at the Hopewell Mound Group was Mound 25, a rather uninspired name for a mound that was the size of a three-story building spread over two city blocks and that contained the largest number of iconic Hopewell artifacts ever found in a mound.
Among the amazing objects there were several large spear points made from obsidian. Obsidian is volcanic glass and most of the Hopewell obsidian was quarried from Obsidian Cliff in Yellowstone Park.
Though they look like spear points, some of them are more than a foot long, much too big to have been used to tip spears. So what were they used for?
Ohio State University archaeologist Richard Yerkes; Ariane Pépin, a graduate student at the University of Quebec at Chicoutimi; and Jay Toth, a retired tribal archaeologist, studied the edges of these artifacts under high-powered magnification to see whether they could identify wear patterns that would reveal how they had been used by the Hopewell.
They reported their results in their contribution to the new book, "Encountering Hopewell in the Twenty-First Century, Ohio and Beyond, Volume 2: Settlements, Foodways and Interaction."
Yerkes and Pépin examined eight large obsidian points from the collections of the Ohio History Connection. They found that none of the points had traces of use, but four of them had wear patterns along their bases that indicated they had been attached to handles or shafts.
So they were hafted onto wooden spears, but not one was ever actually used. Can you think of reason for that?
: The Barbarian Fri Apr 03, 2020 - 22:15:39
The Hopewell culture created a series of gigantic earthworks across southern Ohio between A.D.1 and 400.
One of the largest of these was the Hopewell Mound Group, now part of Hopewell Culture National Historical Park in Ross County. This is where archaeologists first recognized the distinctive characteristics of this ancient American Indian culture, which they named after the site.
Get the news delivered to your inbox: Sign up for our morning, afternoon and evening newsletters
The largest mound at the Hopewell Mound Group was Mound 25, a rather uninspired name for a mound that was the size of a three-story building spread over two city blocks and that contained the largest number of iconic Hopewell artifacts ever found in a mound.
Among the amazing objects there were several large spear points made from obsidian. Obsidian is volcanic glass and most of the Hopewell obsidian was quarried from Obsidian Cliff in Yellowstone Park.
Though they look like spear points, some of them are more than a foot long, much too big to have been used to tip spears. So what were they used for?
Ohio State University archaeologist Richard Yerkes; Ariane Pépin, a graduate student at the University of Quebec at Chicoutimi; and Jay Toth, a retired tribal archaeologist, studied the edges of these artifacts under high-powered magnification to see whether they could identify wear patterns that would reveal how they had been used by the Hopewell.
They reported their results in their contribution to the new book, "Encountering Hopewell in the Twenty-First Century, Ohio and Beyond, Volume 2: Settlements, Foodways and Interaction."
Yerkes and Pépin examined eight large obsidian points from the collections of the Ohio History Connection. They found that none of the points had traces of use, but four of them had wear patterns along their bases that indicated they had been attached to handles or shafts.
So they were hafted onto wooden spears, but not one was ever actually used. Can you think of reason for that?
Can I think of a reason for that.
Absolutely.
They would not be needed. The very sight of one of these would send an enemy scurrying away, or simply dying of fear.
Here is another question.
IF there were not giants as one generally perceives a giant to be were there large animals?
I am referring to those of the dinosaur sizes that we have been taught of.
Also, I find this article to be of interest.
Of course you will say it is fake news and never happened... Perhaps you are correct. It is, after all, only the
Smithsonian.
https://worldnewsdailyreport.com/smithsonian-admits-to-destruction-of-thousands-of-giant-human-skeletons-in-early-1900s/
And talking of skeletons... aside from giants....
Why do you suppose it is that when "they" go on archaeological digs, and turn up partial building and pieces of pottery and even arrow heads and the like they only seem to turn up the skeleton of one or two people, and not the many or even hundreds on would expect to find of a group that would have been living there when it was thriving?
You really and truly do not hear so much of human... or animal for that matter... remains as much as the "artifacts" that were left behind. Yes, they have found more with the "native Americans" over hear... but what of all the others?
You would think that the museums would be filled to over flowing with examples. They are not.
Have you covered this one here yet? .... I have not checked all the links here , yet.
https://www.gaia.com/article/giant-skeletons-have-been-found-buried-in-mounds-across-america The pic below is in this link...
While this picture was exposed as a fake from the link....(https://www.ancient-origins.net/unexplained-phenomena/top-ten-giant-discoveries-north-america-005196)
This fascinating discovery reports on a giant mummy found in San Diego (that is currently believed to be a hoax). However, let's take a closer look, as there is some intrigue and inconsistency with this popular story. This first report appeared in 1895 with the sub-headings " Nine Feet High and Probably a California Indian. Measurement Well Authenticated. Other Big Men and Women of Fact and Fable Who Are Famous Types if Gigantism. " When accurately measured it turned out to be 8ft 4 inches and was " carefully inspected and measured by Prof. Thomas Wilson, Curator of the Department of Prehistoric Anthropology in the Smithsonian Institution, and by other scientists." 3
Thirteen years later—in 1908—when the mummy was being exhibited, the Smithsonian ran some tests and suddenly dismissed it as a hoax, saying it was made from "gelatin." The fact that it took that long, and after spending $500 to acquire it, plus the fact that it was " carefully inspected " by experts thirteen years earlier does suggest there may be more to this story than meets the eye.
Interestingly, Aleš Hrdlička, joined the Smithsonian in 1903, right in between the discovery and the final debunking. He was not interested in giants and made a concerted effort to eradicate them from the historical record. It is also interesting to note that the Director of Prehistoric Anthropology, Thomas Wilson, and the ethnologist in charge. W. J. McGee were both involved in this story, and were obviously keen to make sure the Smithsonian got it back to their headquarters at an immense cost ($500 in 1895 equates to $14,285 today). But why would they bother doing that if it was simply a sideshow hoax?
(https://i.ibb.co/mcgC5Ww/Giant.jpg)
and this............
Why shall it be kept a secret that human giants have existed?
http://www.sydhav.no/giants/secret.htm
While the following link could carry its own thread, I have provided it here , purely for interest and not as proof of giants at all.
Nephilim
In 1928, Peruvian archaeologist Julio Tello discovered an enormous intricately designed graveyard containing some of the largest skulls ever found. Some of the skulls were believed to be over 3,000 years old. A recent DNA test found that the DNA contained in these skulls had mutations unknown to human, primate, or animal. Had Tello found a Nephilim tomb? Many are still unsure, and scientists have yet to prove otherwise.
http://www.the13thfloor.tv/2017/04/06/proof-of-the-actual-existence-and-extinction-of-giants/
: Rella Sat Apr 04, 2020 - 07:10:44
Can I think of a reason for that.
Absolutely.
They would not be needed. The very sight of one of these would send an enemy scurrying away, or simply dying of fear.
Possibly. Or, as in certain weapons used ceremonially by guards in some nations, they might have merely been for display. Or as sometimes in Central America, they were used as currency. Clearly, they weren't used as actual weapons.
Here is another question.
IF there were not giants as one generally perceives a giant to be were there large animals?
Still are. Elephants and giraffes, for example. There was also a huge hominoid, Gigantopithecus. It was about ten feet tall and maybe 1000 lbs. Taller than all but the tallest of known humans, and much,much more massive. It died out around the last ice age, so humans likely encountered it in the tropics of what is now China. Seems to be most closely related to orangutans.
Of course you will say it is fake news and never happened... Perhaps you are correct. It is, after all, only the
Smithsonian.
https://worldnewsdailyreport.com/smithsonian-admits-to-destruction-of-thousands-of-giant-human-skeletons-in-early-1900s/
It's the World News Daily. Not notably for accuracy. At your link:
The American entertainment conglomerate Warner Bros. won an international auction held last night by the World Health Organization, outbidding Disney and Netflix with an amazing $12,855,000,000 for the exclusive cinematographic rights on all future movies concerning the Covid-19 pandemic.
And that's not the weirdest thing. Some of it would probably get me warned, if I posted it here.
And talking of skeletons... aside from giants....
Why do you suppose it is that when "they" go on archaeological digs, and turn up partial building and pieces of pottery and even arrow heads and the like they only seem to turn up the skeleton of one or two people, and not the many or even hundreds on would expect to find of a group that would have been living there when it was thriving?
Mostly because people, including skeletons, generally decompose and are gone in a few decades. There have been billions of people living on Earth, but finding an ancient skeleton is a rather rare thing.
Why shall it be kept a secret that human giants have existed?
We have modern examples...
https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/news/2019/2/a-history-of-record-breaking-giants-100-years-after-the-tallest-man-in-the-world-511577/
Extremely large humans tend to be relatively weak, and have a lot of health problems. That's because strength increases as the square of length, but mass increases as the cube of length.
This is why the skeletons and movements of cats and elephants are so different.
: The Barbarian Sat Apr 04, 2020 - 07:53:46
Mostly because people, including skeletons, generally decompose and are gone in a few decades. There have been billions of people living on Earth, but finding an ancient skeleton is a rather rare thing.
So then a giant giant could be considered quite real if it was old enough.
Of interest to me was a discovery, admittedly alledgedly as not proof ...in West Hickory PA ... about an hours drive drom me
by way of our current roads.
West Hickory is very close to the West Virginian and Ohio borders where there have been numerous "giant" mounds reported.
So, back in the day this whole tri-state area would have been thought of as one.
_______________________________________________
Pennsylvania Giant Skeleton with Helmet and Sword, 1870
http://www.giantsinthebible.com/pennsylvania-giant-skeleton-with-helmet-and-sword-1870/
_______________________________________________
What annoys me is You can bet someone got hold of the helmit and sword..... It is said that they were taken to Tionesta (PA) in the newspaper clipping... .. I read nothing now of what happened to them.
This was long before LONG before indian ( Native Americans) grave sites were honored as a do not disturb....
Another article linked in the link says they were going to be taken to New York... and the joints were being glued at the time.
But with a newspaper report... no pictures?
This one is too lose to home.... for me.
I see if I can find out what happened in New York
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-israeli-archaeologists-find-hidden-pattern-at-gobekli-tepe-1.8799837
Quoted article below is from link above. Emphasis is mine, my comments in blue.
Israeli Archaeologists Find Hidden Pattern at 'World's Oldest Temple' Göbekli Tepe
Neolithic hunter-gatherers who erected massive monoliths in central Turkey 11,500 years ago had command of geometry and a much more complex society than previously thought, archaeologists say
The enigmatic monoliths built some 11,500 years ago at Göbekli Tepe have been puzzling archaeologists and challenging preconceptions about prehistoric culture since their discovery in the 1990s. Chiefly, how could hunter-gatherers with a supposedly primitive societal structure build such monumental stone circles on this barren hilltop in what is today southeastern Turkey? How could a largely nomadic society at the dawn of agriculture marshal the resources and know-how to create what its discoverers have dubbed the oldest known temple in the world?
If anything, a discovery by Israeli archaeologists suggests the Göbekli Tepe construction project was even more complex than previously thought, and required an amount of planning and resources thought to be impossible for those times. Their study of the three oldest stone enclosures at Göbekli Tepe has revealed a hidden geometric pattern, specifically an equilateral triangle, underlying the entire architectural plan of these structures.
This implies that, in contrast to the prevailing assumption among Göbekli researchers until now, these three circles were planned as a single unit and possibly built at the same time, say archaeologists Gil Haklay and Avi Gopher of Tel Aviv University.
Thus, thousands of years before the invention of writing or the wheel, the builders of Göbekli Tepe evidently had some understanding of geometric principles and could apply them to their construction plans, concludes the study published in January in the Cambridge Archaeological Journal.
"The initial discovery of the site was a big surprise and we are now showing that its construction was even more complex than we thought," says Haklay, an Israel Antiquities Authority archaeologist and a PhD candidate at Tel Aviv University.
The first phase of construction at Göbekli Tepe, or "potbellied hill" in Turkish, has been dated to between 12,000 and 11,000 years ago. This is the earliest part of the Neolithic, also known as Pre-Pottery Neolithic A (or PPNA), around the time people in the Northern Levant began domesticating plants and animals, launching the Agricultural Revolution.
The site's builders erected several concentric stone circles, setting into the walls massive T-shaped pillars that reached almost six meters in height, many of which were decorated with reliefs of animals and other motifs. These circles appear to have been built around pairs of pillars positioned roughly in their center.
Only four circles from the PPNA, dubbed enclosures A, B, C, and D, have been excavated so far, but surveys have shown there are at least 15 more scattered around the hill, as well as half a dozen other similar unexplored sites across southeastern Turkey.
An unexpected pattern
The new study focused on enclosures B,C, and D, which are known to be slightly older than A. Based on the assumption that such a massive construction project would have been beyond the capacities of the small, non-sedentary groups that usually comprise hunter-gatherer societies, most scholars have assumed that all the circles at Göbekli Tepe had to have been built gradually over a long period of time.
"There is a lot of speculation that the structures were built successively, possibly by different groups of people, and that one was covered up while the next one was being built. But there is no evidence that they are not contemporaneous," Haklay tells Haaretz.
Haklay, who formerly worked as an architect, applied a method called architectural formal analysis, which is used to trace the planning principles and methods used in the design of existing structures.
Using an algorithm, he identified the center points of the three irregular stone circles. Not surprisingly, those points fell roughly mid-way between the pair of central pillars in each enclosure. What was surprising, however, was that those three points could be linked to form a nearly perfect equilateral triangle. Specifically, the vertices are about 25 centimeters away from forming a perfect triangle with sides measuring 19.25 meters each.
"I certainly did not expect this," Haklay recalls. "The enclosures all have different sizes and shapes so the odds that these center points would form an equilateral triangle by chance are very low."
The finding confirms previous research by Haklay and Gopher at other sites showing that architects in the Neolithic or even in the late Paleolithic didn't build shelters and homes haphazardly but had the ability to apply rudimentary geometric principles and create standard units of measurement.
At Göbekli Tepe, the discovery of the pattern is evidence of a complex abstract design that could not be realized without first creating a scaled floor plan, Haklay says. At a time when the invention of writing was millennia away, this could be accomplished, for example, by using reeds of equal length to create a rudimentary blueprint on the ground, he suggests.
"Each enclosure subsequently went through a long construction history with multiple modifications, but at least in an initial phase they started as a single project," the archaeologist concludes. "The implication is that a single project at Göbekli Tepe was three times larger than previously thought and required three times as much manpower – a level that is unprecedented in hunter-gatherer societies."
Suddenly, social stratification
The construction would have required hundreds or maybe thousands of workers and could be taken to mark the birth of a more stratified society, with a level of sophistication previously seen only in later, sedentary groups of farmers, says Gopher, an archaeology professor at Tel Aviv University and Haklay's PhD advisor.
"This is where it starts: The sharing instinct of hunter-gatherer societies is reduced and inequality is growing; someone is running the show – I don't know if it's shamans or political leaders, but this is a society that has an architect and somebody who initiates a project like this and has the power to make it happen," Gopher says.
The new study is "an amazing contribution to the understanding" of this enigmatic site, says Anna Belfer-Cohen, an archaeology professor at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem and an expert on late prehistory. However, given that there are many stone circles at Göbekli Tepe and other sites nearby that have yet to be excavated, we don't know if the same conclusions can be applied to all these enclosures, cautions Belfer-Cohen, who did not take part in the study.
"These three enclosures may have been built together, but it doesn't mean that the others were not constructed as single units, perhaps by different groups," she says. "We have only uncovered the tip of the iceberg of this phenomenon, but it is more likely that there were many different groups that considered this entire area sacred and converged on it to erect the enclosures, rather than a single group that went crazy and just constructed these complexes day and night."
The new world order
How and why Neolithic hunter-gatherers would mobilize the massive resources needed to build Göbekli Tepe and other sites like it is the subject of much speculation. While some researchers have interpreted the structures as residential spaces, most archaeologists see little evidence of this and consider the sheer monumentality of the complex and the richness of its iconography as evidence of a ritual purpose.
The massive T-shaped pillars and the reliefs on them – animal and human-like - have been interpreted as totems: perhaps representations of protective spirits, possibly long-deceased ancestors, some of whom were believed to take on animal form. The idea that the zoomorphic and anthropomorphic images may represent the venerated dead was reinforced by the recent discovery of modified skull fragments buried at the site, which many researchers consider to be evidence of ancestor cults (similarly to the interpretation of stone masks found throughout the Levant from about 9,000 years ago).
The identification of the hidden geometrical pattern strengthens the interpretation of Göbekli Tepe as a cultic site, say Haklay and Gopher. The southern side of the triangle runs through the central stone pillars of enclosures B and C, creating a base for the polygon. The axis perpendicular to this line runs through the entire site and ends in the center of enclosure D, which can be interpreted as the top of the pyramid.
This suggests that the builders understood and wished to represent the idea of a hierarchy, perhaps intending to crystalize the new order of a less equal and more stratified society, Haklay and Gopher maintain.
The stratification was not limited to human relations: it suggests a change in the perceived relationship between humans and nature, the archaeologists suggest. That's because of what is found at the top of the triangle, at the center of enclosure D.
While the site's signature T-shaped pillars have all been interpreted as stylized human figures, the central monoliths of enclosure D are the only ones that are clearly anthropomorphic, bearing reliefs of hands, a belt, and possibly a loincloth. Placing these human depictions at the top of this triangle would have been a powerful message, and represented an ideological departure from the animal-centric canons of Paleolithic art.
"In Paleolithic art humans are rare, and this is true here as well, but you start to see change, the beginning of an anthropocentric world view in which animals and plants are no longer equal to humans but are subordinated to them," Gopher tells Haaretz.
In other words, Göbekli Tepe may have been designed, consciously or unconsciously, to represent and perhaps explain humanity's growing ability to manipulate its environment, which, in the coming centuries, would lead to the first domesticated crops in this very region, the researchers say.
"The end of the hunter-gatherer lifestyle is more of an ideological transformation than an economic or technological one," Gopher maintains. "Hunter-gatherers cannot domesticate anything, it's against their world view, which is based on equality and trust. Once that ideology changes, the entire structure of society is transformed and a new world is born."
There is no end to the wild speculations of those who have submitted to the false historical narratives which contradict the plain testimony of scripture. The above evidence leads where those of these false narratives simply do not want to go, so they come up with every and any type of alternate explanation they can. Nevertheless, for any who care to notice, all such is admittedly referred to as assumption, presumption, or speculation. Humanity was created by God fully capable of building complex structures and societies. No matter how much evidence they continue to find suggesting this very thing, they simply will not go where the evidence actually leads, which is away fro their wild speculations based upon the prevailing false narratives of history. This choice they continually and deliberately make, has nothing to do with actual evidence, but rather the manipulation of evidence in accordance with their chosen narratives. So be it. No doubt this project like many others, will be stalled or eventually abandoned if evidence found within it continues to point where they do not want to go.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=804&v=1YwmZlT-6ZQ&feature=emb_logo
Another video regarding the many recorded accounts of giant human bones being found.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPixqRq-zXg
This video addresses the ongoing conclusions world wide, that lower tech societies of the past built upon the higher tech remnants of societies which existed before them. This one is concerning the megalithic structures of South America. As is almost always the case, the video does not subscribe to the biblical account of the flood which no doubt left behind these remnants discovered by later lower tech peoples and societies.
The present false narrative of history ascribes these high tech remnants to the more primitive peoples who built upon them. Not wanting to go toward the scriptural account, where the evidence leads either. So be it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7UmGEMduI8
This video addresses the same issue concerning the pyramids and such.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huXQkNl8wDk
About four and a half minutes into this video, they discuss an apparent wheel buried very deep, where it absolutely should not belong.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=is9P3pm9vks
A shoe print, that would have to be 15 million years old according to present historical narratives.
https://nypost.com/2020/06/06/massive-3000-year-old-mayan-structure-discovered-in-mexico/
Massive 3,000-year-old Mayan structure discovered in Mexico
The largest ever construction of the Mayan civilization has been unearthed in Mexico's Tabasco State roughly 850 miles east of Mexico City.
The finding consists of a platform topped with a 13-foot tall pyramid and multiple other structures which date from the early Mayan civilization roughly 3,000 years ago, according to a new paper in the journal Nature.
The ruins have been sitting in plain sight, but have laid undiscovered amid the region's dense ranch lands.
"It's fairly hard to explain, but when you walk on the site, you don't quite realize the enormity of the structure," the lead author of the paper told National Geographic. "It's over 30 feet high, but the horizontal dimensions are so large that you don't realize the height."
More evidence of higher tech. and advanced societies further back in time, in another area of the world. As the evidence continues to increasingly suggest biological, technological, and societal devolution over time, rather than evolution. The natural world, and human societies of the past are continuously revealing superior size, complexity, and ability than the more recent recorded past of the last few thousand years. Nevertheless, deep time evolutionist scenarios, and alien theories abound while the plain simple truths of scripture in relation to the same are ignored by those with itching ears. So be it.
2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
https://www.newsweek.com/ancient-well-7000-years-old-oldest-wooden-structure-1485421
Ancient Well Found to Be Over 7,000 Years Old, Making It the Oldest Wooden Structure Ever Discovered
A 7,000 year-old well built by Neolithic farmers is the oldest-known wooden structure on the planet, according to archaeologists.
The "unique" find had researchers scrambling to excavate the area where it was found: a strip of motorway between the regions of Bohemia and Moravia in the north of the Czech Republic.
"We had no idea that the first farmers, who only had tools made of stone, bones, horns, or wood, were able to process the surface of felled trunks with such precision," Jaroslav Peška, who heads the Archaeological Centre in Olomouc, Moravia, told Radio Prague International in 2019.
Peška and colleagues used tree-ring (dendrochronologically) dating to determine when exactly the square-based well (80 cm x 80 cm x 140 cm) was constructed. They then checked the results against radiocarbon dated samples from the well, as well as a radiocarbon dated hazelnut and oak charcoal fragment found nearby.
"According to our findings, based particularly on dendrochronological data we can say that the tree trunks for the wood used were felled in the years 5255 and 5256 BCE," said Peška. "The rings on the trunks enable us to give a precise estimate, give [or] take one year, as to when the trees were felled."
The researchers noticed that one plank of wood was younger than the main construction, suggesting a repair was made circa 5241–5224 BCE.
However, the well is unique not just because of its age, but because of the building techniques used during its construction.
According to Peška and colleagues' paper in Journal of Archeological Science, to be published this year, it contains marks of construction techniques consistent with those used in the Bronze, Iron and even the Roman ages—ages that took place thousands of years after the Early Neolithic.
A spate of construction projects has led to a surge in archaeological discoveries in the Czech Republic—this is the third (and oldest) Neolithic well found in the country in four years.
The structure, discovered near the town of Ostrov in East Bohemia, is an isolated construction, say archaeologists. This suggests it may have served multiple settlements within the region.
A piece of antler, a ceramic bowl and a scattering of bird bones were found nearby. The team also found pottery fragments that appear to date back to the Linear Pottery (or Danube) Culture during the Early Neolithic period, as Europe transitioned to agriculture.
"These people likely built simply-structured houses and domesticated animals. And they were skilled at making ceramic objects," said Peška.
Similar wells with wooden structures from the around the same time-period have been found in Hungary, Czech Republic and Germany. Not all have been dated using dendrochronology, which means the well at Ostrov may hang on to its title as the world's oldest on a technicality.
The study's authors say they may have been brought over from South-Western Asia. Alternatively, they may have been developed to meet the specific needs of the region.
Previous research has suggested the period between 5400 to 5101 BCE was marked by severe dry and wet spring-summer seasons, with high levels of variability year-on-year. This unpredictable climate would have made wells an important resource for communities living nearby.
The wooden well has managed to survive the thousands of years that have passed since it was built because it has been submerged in water. The study's authors explain that had it been taken out of the water and left to dry out, it would very quickly crumble.
Therefore, the water is to be replaced with a conservation agent you might find in your kitchen cupboard: plain white sugar.
Researchers at the University of Pardubice in the Czech Republic have helped to preserve the wooden structure by placing the planks in a sucrose solution. Over a period of several months, the solution will fortify the wood's cellular structure.
More advanced or shall we say complex techniques of building found further back in time than those of the increasingly reputed narrative of history allowed for. The false evolutionary narrative of simple to complex closely tied to the false historical narrative of the same concerning human development and society is continually proved wrong with discoveries refuting once established time frames according to the same false narratives. This article ignores of course, the already established high tech stone work found further back in time as well. As though those capable of such, could not also work with wood to the same effect or efficiency. Same old false conclusions and presumptions based upon the false evolutionary narratives of deep time slowly developing complexity of life, and human society. Both were complex from the beginning as ever increasing evidence repeatedly suggests, which those of the opposite faith choose to ignore and are therefore constantly amazed by supposed shock of finding the primitives they have created in their own minds accomplished. On and on the vain imaginings go. All evidence to the contrary be damned.
Psa 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, 3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. 4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. 5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. 6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. 7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. 10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. 11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/168787
Ancient Structure Found in Sea of Galilee
Underwater archaeologists have found an ancient structure built from large basalt stones, under the Sea of Galilee, Lake Kinneret.
.......................................
https://rense.com/general4/blacksea.htm
Traces Of Ancient Structure Found 95 Meters Below Black Sea
Off the coast of northern Turkey, 311 feet (95 meters) below the Black Sea, explorer Robert Ballard has discovered remains of an ancient structure that was apparently flooded in a deluge of biblical proportions. The find may lend credence to a theory that a Black Sea flood gave rise to the Noah story and other flood legends......................
https://archaeology-world.com/massive-structure-found-buried-in-sands-of-petra/
MASSIVE STRUCTURE FOUND BURIED IN SANDS OF PETRA
According to a new study based on satellite imaging to map the ancient city, archaeologists have found the monumental building hidden under the sands of Petra.
A massive 184-footed platform was revealed by satellite surveys of the city, with an interior platform that was paved with flagstones, lined with columns on one side and with a gigantic staircase descending to the east. A smaller structure, 28ft by 28ft, topped the interior platform and opened to the staircase. Pottery found near the structure suggests the structure could be more than 2,150 years old.............................
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/archaeology/revealed-remarkable-ancient-structure-found-just-two-miles-stonehenge-a7190476.html
Remarkable ancient structure found just two miles from Stonehenge
Exclusive: Stonehenge had a close, wooden rival of gigantic proportions - that was cut down before completion and buried for thousands of years. Now, thanks to a long-awaited excavation, its story can be revealed for the first time
Remarkable new archaeological discoveries are beginning to suggest that Stonehenge was built at a time of particularly intense religious and political rivalry.
Just two miles north-east of the World Heritage site, at an important archaeological complex known as Durrington Walls, archaeologists have just discovered what appears to have been a vast 500-metre diameter circle of giant timber posts. The find is of international significance.............................
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/47926991/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/mysterious-structure-found-ancient-lake-so-what-it/#.X15Cqi2ZNeM
Mysterious structure found on ancient lake - so what is it?
Archaeologists have unearthed the foundation of what appears to have been a massive, ancient structure, possibly a bridge leading to an artificial island, in what is now southeast Wales. The strange ruin, its discoverers say, is unlike anything found before in the United Kingdom and possibly all of Europe.
"It's a real mystery," said Steve Clarke, chairman and founding member of the Monmouth Archaeological Society, who discovered the structural remains earlier this month in Monmouth, Wales — a town known for its rich archaeological features. "Whatever it is, there's nothing else like it. It may well be unique."...............................
On and on and on the discoveries go. An article here, an article there. If they could all be collected and put into one publication, what a different view of history might we have?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-w7gzIQAHf0
Good video addressing the present false narratives of history. Bad video concerning the non biblical conclusions it comes too. Scriptural narrative easily explains the new evidence and or anomalies which cast serious doubt upon the present widely accepted false narrative of evolution and history. The makers of the video simply do not want to go there. So be it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gmr0u2U_ki0
Mystery History video. No mystery involved of course, for those of true biblical faith.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6tEqHrbxWo
More evidence of ancient structures being themselves built upon the ruins of more advanced ancient civilizations before them. Some of which is pre-flood no doubt. Showing signs of water erosion even in Egypt. Not that this video itself suggests such, as few ever do. They simply choose other narratives not being bible beleivers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ue3nKAXQilE
Interesting older video on pre flood conditions and giantism.
: Amo Sun Sep 13, 2020 - 10:43:56
Previous research has suggested the period between 5400 to 5101 BCE was marked by severe dry and wet spring-summer seasons, with high levels of variability year-on-year.
Previous research has suggested the period between 5400 to 5101 BCE was marked by severe dry and wet spring-summer seasons, with high levels of variability year-on-year.
And they know this how? Wiki or The Farmer's Almanac from back then ::eek::
A little scientific methodology with a healthy dose of presumption mixed as usual no doubt.
: Amo Sat Oct 10, 2020 - 11:36:28
A little scientific methodology with a healthy dose of presumption mixed as usual no doubt.
That is what I thought. Guess work.
Hmmmm... I thought this topic was going to be about football.
Carry on.
Andre the Giant. One of the greatest giants to ever live.
I think Lawrence Taylor was probably the greatest giant ever, TC. Andre is a distant second at best. Maybe Buster Posey should be second, even. ::eatingpopcorn:
1Sa 17:4 And there went out a champion out of the camp of the Philistines, named Goliath, of Gath, whose height was six cubits and a span. 5 And he had an helmet of brass upon his head, and he was armed with a coat of mail; and the weight of the coat was five thousand shekels of brass. 6 And he had greaves of brass upon his legs, and a target of brass between his shoulders. 7 And the staff of his spear was like a weaver's beam; and his spear's head weighed six hundred shekels of iron: and one bearing a shield went before him.
Cubit = 18-21 inches. Span = 9-10 1/2 inches. Goliath was between 9'9" to 11'4 1/2 inches tall. I think he has your giants beat, and he was post flood.
https://www.cnet.com/news/giant-prehistoric-lion-fossil-discovered-hidden-in-museum-drawer/
Giant prehistoric lion fossil discovered hiding in museum drawer
..................................................................
What other giant bones lie forgotten, hidden, or destroyed by neglect, indifference, or protectionist actions of those of the evolutionary faith?
https://www.newdinosaurs.com/gigantopithecus/
More giants of the past. this one is a giant ape.
https://www.genesispark.com/exhibits/early-earth/larger-organisms/
Good article addressing giants of the past.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yG-kLpC2ED4
Interesting video about a giant hand print in a cave. Indians have folklore concerning it which addresses the obvious remnants of a fire in the cave. Global flood conditions as described in the scriptures seem a more likely source for such a fire producing the a lot of heat as suggested in the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-HNqoJxdkw
Good video concerning remaining evidence of Sodom and Gomorrah. The end gets a bit sketchy when the narrator tries to bring an eternal hell into the biblical picture though.
2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
Jud 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Sodom and Gomorrha are examples of the effects of eternal fire. It does not burn eternally, rather its effects are eternal. God could not make the following promise, while there was a place called hell where the lost will suffer eternally.
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGcyDL9-M9c
This video is not from the creationist viewpoint. It addresses animals discovered in ice. Pay attention to the wolf head found in ice. The head itself is half the size of modern wolves entire bodies. A fact stated abruptly and then passed by quickly. A bear found is also larger than polar bears today, which I believe are the largest at this time. Evidence of a superior world in the past filled with larger and superior creatures is all over the place, but mean nothing to those who have already chosen their faith in evolution, and view everything through this tunnel.
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Tue Oct 13, 2020 - 11:48:26
I think Lawrence Taylor was probably the greatest giant ever, TC. Andre is a distant second at best. Maybe Buster Posey should be second, even. ::eatingpopcorn:
Missed this post. Agree with LT being the greatest Giant ever even though he badly disrupted my teams best shot at ever bring home the Lombardi.
: Alan Mon Dec 14, 2020 - 06:18:12
Missed this post. Agree with LT being the greatest Giant ever even though he badly disrupted my teams best shot at ever bring home the Lombardi.
Anyone ever heard of THE MAN Willie Mays? LT is a far second to "The say Hey kid".
: RB Mon Dec 14, 2020 - 07:52:48
Anyone ever heard of THE MAN Willie Mays? LT is a far second to "The say Hey kid".
Hmmmm....Different species of Giants I suppose. Hard to say which was better since the two never inter-mingled.
No sports Giants compare to Andre The Giant. 7' tall or larger. 500 lbs. A 24-26 size shoe.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/14/50/f9/1450f93791e43767b206a9659df2ad81.jpg)
: Texas Conservative Mon Dec 14, 2020 - 08:26:55
No sports Giants compare to Andre The Giant.
Difference being that Andre was a pseudo-Athlete/Actor. Taylor and Mays were highly skilled professionals in their respective fields.
: Alan Mon Dec 14, 2020 - 08:47:20
Difference being that Andre was a pseudo-Athlete/Actor. Taylor and Mays were highly skilled professionals in their respective fields.
He wasn't a pseudo-athlete. He was an athlete. He was also a highly skilled professional. If you question whether it was a sport or not, then you'd be right.
: Texas Conservative Mon Dec 14, 2020 - 08:26:55
No sports Giants compare to Andre The Giant. 7' tall or larger. 500 lbs. A 24-26 size shoe.
Sun Mingming is 7' 9" and the tallest basketball player on record. Size 20 shoe. Compare to Shaq's 7' 1" and size 22 shoe,
However my vote goes to this guy: Robert Wadlow, who wore a size 37AA shoe (his feet measured at 18.5 inches each). The American-born Wadlow was 8 foot 11 and lived from 1918 to 1940.
: DaveW Mon Dec 14, 2020 - 09:54:14
Sun Mingming is 7' 9" and the tallest basketball player on record. Size 20 shoe. Compare to Shaq's 7' 1" and size 22 shoe,
However my vote goes to this guy: Robert Wadlow, who wore a size 37AA shoe (his feet measured at 18.5 inches each). The American-born Wadlow was 8 foot 11 and lived from 1918 to 1940.
Wadlow was never in The Princess Bride or WWF Champion.
Andre the Giant is the #1 Giant. Giant was part of his name.
If you don't agree with me, you most likely voted for Joe Biden. rofl
: Texas Conservative Mon Dec 14, 2020 - 09:20:44
He wasn't a pseudo-athlete. He was an athlete. He was also a highly skilled professional. If you question whether it was a sport or not, then you'd be right.
I suppose you could make an argument for his athleticism and his skills but IMO, an athlete is also a person that competes based on his abilities. WWE doesn't allow it's competitors to freely compete in the matches, it's a script that is followed with fake punches, kicks, body slams, and ultimately-the win.
: Texas Conservative Mon Dec 14, 2020 - 10:00:45
Wadlow was never in The Princess Bride or WWF Champion.
Neither was Goliath.
: DaveW Mon Dec 14, 2020 - 10:39:17
Neither was Goliath.
Andre never lost to a smaller, young man. Died with his head on too.
https://www.thoughtco.com/why-were-prehistoric-insects-so-big-1968287
Overview of the Biggest Bugs That Ever Lived
Updated October 24, 2019
Goliath beetles and sphinx moths would be described as large by just about anyone living today, but some prehistoric insects would dwarf these evolutionary descendants. During the Paleozoic era, the Earth teemed with giant insects, from dragonflies with wingspans measured in feet, to mayflies nearly 18 inches in breadth.
While over a million insect species live today, truly giant insects no longer exist. Why did giant insects live in prehistoric times, but disappear from the Earth over time?
When Were Insects the Biggest?
The Paleozoic era occurred 542 to 250 million years ago. It is divided into six periods of time and the last two saw the development of the largest insects. These were known as the Carboniferous period (360 to 300 million years ago) and the Permian period (300 to 250 million years ago).
Atmospheric oxygen is the single most limiting factor for insect size. During the Carboniferous and Permian periods, atmospheric oxygen concentrations were significantly higher than they are today. Prehistoric insects breathed air that was 31 to 35 percent oxygen, as compared to just 21 percent oxygen in the air you're breathing right now.
The largest insects lived during the Carboniferous period. It was the time of the dragonfly with over a two-foot wingspan and a millipede that could reach ten feet. As conditions changed in the Permian period, the bugs diminished in size. Yet, this period did have its share of giant cockroaches and other insects we would certainly classify as giants.
How Did the Bugs Get So Big?
The cells in your body get the oxygen they need to survive via your circulatory system. Oxygen is carried by the blood through your arteries and capillaries to each and every cell in your body. In insects, on the other hand, respiration occurs by simple diffusion through the cell walls.
Insects take in atmospheric oxygen through spiracles, openings in the cuticle through which gasses enter and exit the body. Oxygen molecules travel via the tracheal system. Each tracheal tube ends with a tracheole, where the oxygen dissolves into the tracheole fluid. The O2 then diffuses into the cells.
When oxygen levels were higher -- as in the prehistoric era of giant insects -- this diffusion-limited respiratory system could supply sufficient oxygen to meet the metabolic needs of a larger insect. Oxygen could reach cells deep within the insect's body, even when that insect measured several feet long.
As atmospheric oxygen decreased over evolutionary time, these innermost cells could not be adequately supplied with oxygen. Smaller insects were better equipped to function in a hypoxic environment. And so, insects evolved into smaller versions of their prehistoric ancestors............................
https://www.creationest.com/oxygen-early-earth.html
EVIDENCE FOR OXYGEN IN THE EARLY EARTH'S ATMOSPHERE
by Owen Omid (Ommid Bekrai Boroujerdi)
Did the early Earth have more oxygen than today? Why is there so much oxygen in the crust? Why is there so much nitrogen in the earth's atmosphere today? These are questions that must be asked to understand the origin and formation of the earth. Many have postulated that the atmosphere of the early earth had more oxygen than today.
Fossils of large animals including dinosaurs have been found in the past and scientists speculate that a higher oxygen level in the past would allow for longer lifespans. The large amount of nitrogen in today's atmosphere must also be explained, possibly from volcanic gases or from some other source inside the earth. In addition to making up 21 percent of the earth's atmosphere today, oxygen makes up 46 percent of the earth's crust by mass and 89 percent of seawater on earth.
A recent study has shown that air bubbles have been found trapped inside salt crystals in pre-Flood sedimentary rock layers in west central Australia (known as Precambrian layers according to mainstream scientists). These air bubbles and their composition were compared to modern air bubbles inside salt crystals and showed that the ancient bubbles had more than half the oxygen percentage (10.9 percent) of the modern atmosphere. This discovery gives strong evidence for a pre-Flood atmospheric oxygen level much higher than previously thought and much closer to today's level.
Evolutionists believe that the early earth had very little oxygen (less than 10 percent of today's amount) and was composed primarily of ammonia, carbon dioxide, methane, and water vapor. The Miller-Urey experiment used these gases to simulate early earth conditions in hopes of proving spontaneous chemical reactions that would spur the naturalistic formation of life. However, that experiment was only successful in producing certain organic molecules and could not explain how these molecules could combine together to form proteins and the basic tenants of the living cell.
The Australia research gives evidence for large oxygen levels in the early Earth's atmosphere and that complex life including animals could have existed on Earth earlier than previously proposed. Creationists use the evidence of large percentages of oxygen in the ancient past to give evidence for a much shorter time span for the age of the Earth. According to the creationist model, suitable oxygen levels were were installed during the creation week, which would have allowed complex life to exist near the beginning of the formation of the Earth.
Billions of years were not needed to produce the adequate oxygen levels needed to support the complex life of today that would allow animals and humans to survive, according to the creationist model. In addition, scientists have examined the chemical composition of early Earth rocks and sedimentary strata, including Precambrian sedimentary layers and much evidence exists that these rocks and sediments of the early Earth formed during the existence of an atmosphere abundant in oxygen, despite the assumptions of mainstream evolutionist scientists.
Oxygen and complexity were here from the beginning. Creation was the mechanism of our existence, not evolution. De-evolution is the natural course we see in the present and evidence we have from the past. Species are continually lost, information is lost, and todays creatures are much smaller than those of the past with a continually decreasing amount of variety due to extinctions.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/10/101029132924.htm
Raising giant insects to unravel ancient oxygen
The giant dragonflies of ancient Earth with wingspans of up to 70 centimeters (28 inches) are generally attributed to higher oxygen atmospheric levels in the atmosphere in the past. New experiments in raising modern insects in various oxygen-enriched atmospheres have confirmed that dragonflies grow bigger with more oxygen, or hyperoxia.
However, not all insects were larger when oxygen was higher in the past. For instance, the largest cockroaches ever are skittering around today. The question becomes how and why do different groups respond to changes in atmospheric oxygen...................................
"There have been a lot of hypotheses about the impact of oxygen on evolution of animals, but nobody has really tested them," said VandenBrooks. "So we have used a two-pronged approach: 1) study modern insects in varying oxygen levels and 2) study fossil insects and understand changes in the past in light of these results."
https://www.genesispark.com/exhibits/early-earth/experiments/
Atmospheric Experiments
For some time medical hyperbaric chambers have been used to hasten healing of skin injuries and various other ailments. While many hospitals contain a chamber like the one shown to the right, professional sports teams and celebrities have increasingly been experimenting with sleeping in enhanced oxygen and high pressure. Around the world, evidence is mounting that these chambers can reduce infection (as the skin itself absorbs oxygen), heal diseases, decrease stress, and enhance stamina. Perhaps the increased atmospheric pressure and larger percentage of oxygen on the early earth would have similarly contributed to a much healthier environment for biological systems. Scientists conducting deep sea research have built stations far under the ocean. Aquanauts living for a month or more in this setting with increased pressure and extra oxygen have reported some unexpected side effects, like increased hair growth.
Particularly interesting experiments were conducted by the late Dr. Kei Mori of Keio University in Tokyo. Dr. Mori raised plants under special light that filtered out IR and UV radiation. His unique process of sunlight collection via a fresnel ray assembly and fiberoptic transmission, called "Himawari Sunlighting," is now marketed worldwide. At first Mori feared the filtered light would be detrimental. But after extensive experiments he claimed it could promote healing and "because the ultraviolet is blocked, this sunlight does not fade fabrics or damage skin." (Gilmore, Elaine, "Sunflower over Tokyo," Popular Science, May 1988, p. 75.) One long-lived tomato plant (shown right) was grown in a special nutrient-rich hydroponic solution to be exhibited at the Japan Expo '85. Under piped sunlight and controlled atmosphere, this veritable "tomato tree" grew over 30 ft high and yielded more than 13,000 ripe tomatoes during the six months of the Expo! (Hiroshi, Koichibara, "Tomatomation," UNESCO Courier, March 1987.) Much of the credit for this agronomic wonder was given to the Himawari technology. "Prime attractions will include a TV screen as tall as an eight-story building and a 30-foot tomato tree grown by researchers using light-absorbent optical fibers." (LA Times, March 3, 1985.) Could Mori's environment of filtered sunlight, enhanced carbon dioxide, and nutrient-rich liquids mirror the conditions on the early earth?
In 2012 Genesis Park staff conducted experiments with sunlight filtering in water. Bean plants were grown in two sealed jars with identical soil. One jar was submerged in water within a large clear tub (approximately a half meter deep in the water). A second jar was placed in an identical container with no water (a control group). The bean plants in the control group initially grew faster than those submerged. But the group submerged in the water bath grew thicker stems, more foliage, and appeared healthier. The experiment had to be curtailed after a couple of weeks because the plants grew to the top of the jar. The procedure was repeated multiple times with similar results.
Dan Carlson was inspired by Genesis 2:6 ("But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground...") to do experiments with "misting" plants. He also incorporated the music of birds with certain oscillating frequencies that open the plants' stomata (shown to the left under a scanning electron microscope). While these pores are open, the leaves are sprayed with a plant nutrient enzyme. The results are amazing. A purple passion plant, which normally grows to about 18 inches, grew under Carlson's care to a Guinness World Record 1,300 ft high plant. Carlson grew 10 inch long potatoes and cantaloupes the size of soccer balls. His system was dubbed "Sonic Bloom." This patented process was used to treat apple orchards in Wisconsin. In a state averaging 290 bushels/acre, the mist and song bird music helped trees yield over 500 bushels/acre and the fruit has a shelf life of five months instead of the normal 30 days. Cucumbers, soybeans, cabbages, walnuts, tomatoes, cauliflower, mangoes, lemons and even redwood trees have been greatly impacted by this revolutionary agricultural system. ("Sonic Bloom," Creation Illustrated, Vol. 7 No. 2, 2000, pp. 24-31.)
Genesis Park staff worked with a local "big pumpkin" grower to test the Sonic Bloom formula. The result was a 1,458 pound pumpkin that was the world's record as of its weighing in September, 2003! Dan Carlson's methodology appears to confirm the superiority of the original hydrological cycle present on the early earth. It seems that, in addition to misting, there was extensive underground watering system. The fountains of the great deep that would later erupt and supply the bulk of the Flood water (Genesis 7:11) might have supplied an artesian system of active springs that fed rivers with fresh water in the absence of rain. We note in Genesis 2:10 that God made a river to flow through Eden (likely from a large underground reservoir) and water the whole garden. It produced enough water to support four significant rivers which then flowed out in different directions. If the early earth enjoyed a significantly higher oxygen content, it makes sense that God would have initially created a different hydrological cycle. The storm activity that creates rain also brings lightning, which would have had the potential to ignite devastating fires in a high-oxygen environment.
Yes, higher oxygen levels can and do increase the size of plants, animals, and insects. Thus the abundant evidence of the giants of earths past. A different world, with a different atmosphere allowed for longer life, greater growth, and greater productivity. This is acknowledged by both the creationist and evolutionary faiths. Each interpreting the evidence of the same according to their faiths. Evolutionists declaring the observations of creationists cannot even be considered science according to their own narrow and restrictive views of the same, Creationists simply concluding evolutionists to be wrong according to their own faith.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJfh5z8C5fU
I've neglected this topic for quite a long time.
The above video examines ancient structures and the obvious remains or imprints of them left now in solid rock. The structures themsleves being covered or buried in solidified volcanic ash, as the video suggests, and or other conditions involving water, mud, lava flow and such in or under water and what have you during the global flood. Many of the imprints and even rooms or structures in solid rock today, being what remains of the materials that turned to solid rock, while the structures they buried have long since decayed or eroded away. People didn't carve all these things out of solid rock, many are simply the imprints or hollowed out remains of structures that once were. Perhaps even cleaned out of the old decaying materials later, and then occupied and used by those who found them.
: Texas Conservative Mon Dec 14, 2020 - 08:26:55
No sports Giants compare to Andre The Giant. 7' tall or larger. 500 lbs. A 24-26 size shoe.
Not even a real giant. He had acromegaly. Just a normy with a medical condition.
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Fri Jan 28, 2022 - 10:37:25
Not even a real giant. He had acromegaly. Just a normy with a medical condition.
He was a son of Anak
: Texas Conservative Fri Jan 28, 2022 - 10:41:14
He was a son of Anak
Was he Sheshai, Ahiman, or Talmai?
None of the above.
He didn't even have 6 fingers and toes on each hand/foot, which is the mark of a
real giant.
https://archaeology-world.com/the-mystery-behind-the-18-giant-skeletons-found-in-the-usa/
Quoted article below, from link above.
THE MYSTERY BEHIND THE 18 GIANT SKELETONS FOUND IN THE USA
18 Strange Skeletons Found in Wisconsin Nine-foot Skeletons with Huge Heads and Strange Facial Features Shocked Scientists When They Were Uncovered 107 Year Ago Scientists are remaining stubbornly silent about a lost race of giants found in burial mounds near Lake Delavan, Wisconsin, in May 1912.
The dig site at Lake Delavan was overseen by Beloit College and it included more than 200 effigy mounds that proved to be classic examples of 8th century Woodland Culture. But the enormous size of the skeletons and elongated skulls found in May 1912 did not fit very neatly into anyone's concept of a textbook standard.
They were enormous. These were not average human beings.
Strange Skulls
First reported in the 4 May 1912 issue of the New York Times, the 18 skeletons found by the Peterson brothers on Lake Lawn Farm in southwest Wisconsin exhibited several strange and freakish features.
Their heights ranged between seven and nine feet and their skulls "presumably those of men, are much larger than the heads of any race which inhabit America to-day."
Above the eye sockets, "the head slopes straight back and the nasal bones protrude far above the cheekbones. The jawbones are long and pointed, bearing a minute resemblance to the head of the monkey. The teeth in the front of the jaw are regular molars."
The mystery of The Wisconsin Giants
Was this some sort of prank, a hoax played by local farm boys or a demented taxidermist for fun and the attention of the press? The answer is no.
The Lake Delavan find of May 1912 was only one of the dozens and dozens of similar finds that were reported in local newspapers from 1851 forward to the present day. It was not even the first set of giant skeletons found in Wisconsin.
On 10 August 1891, the New York Times reported that scientists from the Smithsonian Institution had discovered several large "pyramidal monuments" on Lake Mills, near Madison, Wisconsin. "Madison was in ancient days the center of a teeming population numbering not less than 200,000," the Times said. The excavators found an elaborate system of defensive works which they named Fort Aztalan.
"The celebrated mounds of Ohio and Indiana can bear no comparison, either in size, design or the skill displayed in their construction with these gigantic and mysterious monuments of the earth — erected we know not by whom, and for what purpose we can only conjecture," said the Times.
On 20 December 1897, the Times followed up with a report on three large burial mounds that had been discovered in Maple Creek, Wisconsin. One had recently been opened.
"In it was found the skeleton of a man of gigantic size. The bones measured from head to foot over nine feet and were in a fair state of preservation. The skull was as large as a half bushel measure. Some finely tempered rods of copper and other relics were lying near the bones."
Giant skulls and skeletons of a race of "Goliaths" have been found on a very regular basis throughout the Midwestern states for more than 100 years. Giants have been found in Minnesota, Iowa, Illinois, Ohio, Kentucky, and New York, and their burial sites are similar to the well-known mounds of the Mound Builder people.
The spectrum of Mound builder history spans a period of more than 5,000 years (from 3400 BCE to the 16th CE), a period greater than the history of Ancient Egypt and all of its dynasties.
There is a "prevailing scholarly consensus" that we have an adequate historical understanding of the peoples who lived in North America during this period. However, the long record of anomalous finds like those at Lake Delavan suggests otherwise.
The Great Smithsonian Cover-Up
Has there been a giant cover-up? Why aren't there public displays of gigantic Native American skeletons at natural history museums?
The skeletons of some Mound Builders are certainly on display. There is a wonderful exhibit, for example, at the Aztalan State Park where one may see the skeleton of a "Princess of Aztalan" in the museum.
But the skeletons placed on display are normal-sized, and according to some sources, the skeletons of giants have been covered up. Specifically, the Smithsonian Institution has been accused of making a deliberate effort to hide the "telling of the bones" and to keep the giant skeletons locked away.
In the words of Vine Deloria, a Native American author, and professor of law:
"Modern day archaeology and anthropology have nearly sealed the door on our imaginations, broadly interpreting the North American past as devoid of anything unusual in the way of great cultures characterized by a people of unusual demeanor. The great interloper of ancient burial grounds, the nineteenth century Smithsonian Institution, created a one-way portal, through which uncounted bones have been spirited. This door and the contents of its vault are virtually sealed off to anyone, but government officials. Among these bones may lay answers not even sought by these officials concerning the deep past."
While I do believe in giants it is becoming increasingly more difficult when there is not a single concrete skeleton of one that
could support this belief.
Perhaps they have all been spirited off to Area 51??? rofl
Short of a belief that these would be on par with the ETs many also believe in what earthly reason could there be for a hoax to span 100 plus years in multiple locations.
It seems that even every one of them that was ever sketched and/or photographed has managed to disappear....
Has to be an Area 51 kind of thing or perhaps dropping them to the well on Oak Island.....
Unless their genealogy could trace back to Nephilim and they dont want people to be afraid?
Amo.. please keep posting these... one day something will turn up....
https://www.6000years.org/frame.php?page=giants
Quoted information below, found below other articles and photos at above link.
Giant Human Remains
- From records and sources all over the world.
Giant Skeletons:
In his book, The Natural and Aboriginal History of Tennessee, author John Haywood describes "very large" bones in stone graves found in Williamson County, Tennessee, in 1821. In White County, Tennessee, an "ancient fortification" contained skeletons of gigantic stature averaging at least 7 feet in length.
Giant skeletons were found in the mid-1800s near Rutland and Rodman, New York. J.N. DeHart, M.D. found vertebrae "larger than those of the present type" in Wisconsin mounds in 1876. W.H.R. Lykins uncovered skull bones "of great size and thickness" in mounds of Kansas City area in 1877.
George W. Hill, M.D., dug out a skeleton "of unusual size" in a mound of Ashland County, Ohio. In 1879, a nine-foot, eight-inch skeleton was excavated from a mound near Brewersville, Indiana (Indianapolis News, Nov 10, 1975).
A six foot, six inch skeleton was found in a Utah mound. This was at least a foot taller than the average Indian height in the area, and these natives- what few there were of them -were not mound builders.
"A skeleton which is reported to have been of enormous dimensions" was found in a clay coffin, with a sandstone slab containing hieroglyphics, during mound explorations by a Dr Everhart near Zanesville, Ohio. (American Antiquarian, v3, 1880, pg61).
Ten skeletons "of both sexes and of gigantic size" were taken from a mound at Warren, Minnesota, 1883. (St. Paul Pioneer Press, May 23, 1883) A skeleton 7 feet 6 inches long was found in a massive stone structure that was likened to a temple chamber within a mound in Kanawha County, West Virginia, in 1884. (American Antiquarian, v6, 1884 133f. Cyrus Thomas, Report on Mound Explorations of the Bureau of Ethnology, 12th Annual Report, Smithsonian Bureau of Ethnology, 1890-91).
A large mound near Gasterville, Pennsylvania, contained a vault in which was found a skeleton measuring 7 feet 2 inches. Inscriptions were carved on the vault. (American Antiquarian, v7, 1885, 52f).
In 1885, miners discovered the mummified remains of woman measuring 6 feet 8 inches tall holding an infant. The mummies were found in a cave behind a wall of rock in the Yosemite Valley.
In Minnesota, 1888, were discovered remains of seven skeletons 7 to 8 feet tall. (St. Paul Pioneer Press, June 29, 1888).
A mound near Toledo, Ohio, held 20 skeletons, seated and facing east with jaws and teeth "twice as large as those of present day people," and besides each was a large bowl with "curiously wrought hieroglyphic figures." (Chicago Record, Oct. 24, 1895; cited by Ron G. Dobbins, NEARA Journal, v13, fall 1978).
The skeleton of a huge man was uncovered at the Beckley farm, Lake Koronis, Minnesota; while at Moose Island and Pine City, bones of other giants came to light. (St. Paul Globe, Aug. 12, 1896).
In 1911, several red-haired mummies ranging from 6 and a half feet to 8 feet tall were discovered in a cave in Lovelock, Nevada. In February and June of 1931, large skeletons were found in the Humboldt lake bed near Lovelock, Nevada. The first of these two skeletons found measured 8 1/2 feet tall and appeared to have been wrapped in a gum-covered fabric similiar to the Egyptian manner. The second skeleton was almost 10 feet long. (Review - Miner, June 19, 1931).
A 7 foot 7 inch skeleton was reported to have been found on the Friedman ranch, near Lovelock, Nevada, in 1939.(Review - Miner, Sept. 29, 1939) In 1965, a skeleton measuring 8 feet 9 inches was found buried under a rock ledge along the Holly Creek in east-central Kentucky.
AUSTRALIAN GIANTS:
There was a race or group of people found in Australia called "meganthropus" by anthropologists. These people were of very large size--estimated between 7 to 12 feet tall, depending on what source you read. These people were found with mega tool artifacts, so their humaness is difficult to question. Four jaw fragments and thousands of teeth have been found in China of "gigantopithecus blacki"--named after the discover. Based on the size of the teeth and deep jaws, its size has been estimated at around 10 feet and as tall as 12 feet, 1200 pounds.
PROOF OF AUSTRALIAN GIANTS:
In old river gravels near Bathurst, NSW, huge stone artifacts -- clubs, pounders, adzes, chisels, knives and hand axes -- all of tremendous weight, lie scattered over a wide area. These weigh anything from 8, 10, 15, to 21 and 25 pounds, implements which only men of tremendous proportions could possibly have made and used. Estimates for the actual size of these men range from 10 to 12 feet tall and over, weighing from 500 to 600 lbs. A fossicker searching the Winburndale River north of Bathurst discovered a large quartzitised fossil human molar tooth, far too big for any normal modern man. A similar find was made near Dubbo, N.S.W.
Prospectors working in the Bathurst district in the 1930's frequently reported coming across numerous large human footprints fossilised in shoals of red jasper.
Even more impressive were fossil deposits found by naturalist Rex Gilroy around Bathurst. He excavated from a depth of 6 feet (2 m) below the surface a fossil lower back molar tooth measuring 67 mm. in length by 50mm. x 42 mm. across the crown. If his measurements are correct, the owner would have been at least 25 ft. tall, weighing well over 1,000 lbs!
At Gympie, Queensland, a farmer, Keith Walker, was ploughing his field when he turned up the large fragment of the back portion of a jaw which still possessed the hollow for a missing lower back molar tooth. This is now in Rex GiIroy's possession. The owner of the tooth would have stood at 10 feet tall.
In the Megalong Valley in the Blue Mountains NSW, a Mr P. Holman found in ironstone protruding from a creek bank the deeply impressed print of a large human-like foot. The print was that of the instep, with all 5 toes clearly shown. This footprint measures 7 inches across the toes. Had the footprint been complete it would have been at least 2 feet (60 cm in length, appropriate to a 12 foot human. However, the largest footprint found on the Blue Mountains must have belonged to a man 20 feet tall!
A set of 3 huge footprints was discovered near Mulgoa, south of Penrith, N.S.W. These prints, each measuring 2 ft long and 7 inches across the toes, are 6 ft. apart, indicating the stride of the 12 ft. giant who left them. These prints were preserved by volcanic lava and ash flows which "occurred millions of years" before man is supposed to have appeared on the Australian continent (if one is to believe the evolutionary theory): Noel Reeves found monstrous footprints near Kempsey, N.S.W. in sandstone beds on the Upper Macleay River. One print shows toe 4 inches (10cm) long and the total toe-span is 10 inches (25cm) - suggesting that the owner of the print may have been 17 feet tall.
MORE GIANT RECORDS:
In an old book entitled "History And Antiquities Of Allerdale," there is an account of a giant found in Cumberland, England, at an unknown date in the middle ages. Called "A True Report of Hugh Hodson, of Thorneway," it states: "The said gyant was buried four yards deep in the ground, which is now a corn field. He was four yards and a half long, and was in complete armor; his sword and battle-axe lying by him....his teeth were six inches long, and two inches broad...." The bones of a twelve foot tall man were dug up in 1833 by a group of soldiers at Lompock Rancho, California. The skeleton was surrounded by giant weapons, and the skull featured a double row of teeth. Yet another giant was unearthed in 1891, when workmen in Crittenden, Arizona excavated a huge stone coffin that had evidently once held the body of a man 12 feet tall. A carving on the granite case indicated that he had six toes.
A living giant was sighted in the little village of Buffalo Mills,
Pennsylvania, on August 19, 1973. A man at least nine feet tall strode down the main street of the village, dressed in strange clothing, which appeared to be made of some sort of shimmering material. He gazed at the startled townspeople in a dark, penetrating way and then loped off casually into oblivion.
OTHER GIANT EVIDENCES:
In July, 1877, four prospectors were looking for gold and silver outcroppings in a desolate, hilly area near the head of Spring Valley, not far from Eureka, Nevada.
Scanning the rocks, one of the men spotted something peculiar projecting from a high ledge. Climbing up to get a better look, the prospector was surprised to find a human leg bone and knee cap sticking out of solid rock. He called to his companions, and together they dislodged the oddity with picks. Realizing they had a most unusual find, the men brought it into Eureka, where it was placed on display.
The stone in which the bones were embedded was a hard, dark red quartzite, and the bones themselves were almost black with carbonization - indicative of great age. When the surrounding stone was carefully chipped away, the specimen was found to be composed of a leg bone broken off four inches above the knee, the knee cap and joint, the lower leg bones, and the complete bones of the foot. Several medical doctors examined the remains, and were
convinced that anatomically they had indeed once belonged to a human being, and a very modern-looking one.
But an intriguing aspect of the bones was their size: from knee to heel they measured 39 inches. Their owner in life had thus stood over 12 feet tall. Compounding the mystery further was the fact that the rock in which the bones were found was dated geologically to the era of the dinosaurs, the Jurassic - over 185 million years old. The local papers ran several stories on the marvelous find, and two museums sent investigators to see if any more of the skeleton could be located. Unfortunately, nothing else but the leg and foot existed in the rock." Strange Relics from the Depths of the Earth--Jochmans
EVEN MORE RECORDS OF GIANTS:
In 1936 Larson Kohl, the German paleontologist and anthropologist, found the bones of gigantic men on the shore of Lake Elyasi in Central Africa. Other giant skeletons were later found in Hava, the Transvaal and China. The evidence for the existence of giants is incontrovertible. "A scientifically assured fact," says Dr. Louis Burkhalter.
1. Large bones in stone graves in Williamson County and White County, Tennessee. Discovered in the early 1800s, the average stature of these giants was 7 feet tall.
2. Giant skeletons found in the mid-1800s in New York state near Rutland and Rodman.
3. In 1833, soldiers digging at Lompock Rancho, California, discovered a male skeleton 12 feet tall. The skeleton was surrounded by caved shells, stone axes, other artifacts. The skeleton had double rows of upper and lower teeth. Unfortunately, this body was secretly buried because the local Indians became upset about the remains.
4. A giant skull and vertebrae found in Wisconsin and Kansas City.
5. A giant found off the California Coast on Santa Rosa Island in the 1800s was distinguished by its double rows of teeth.
6. A 9-foot, 8-inch skeleton was excavated from a mount near Brewersville, Indiana, in 1879.
7. Skeletons of "enormous dimensions" were found in mounds near Zanesville, Ohio, and Warren, Minnesota, in the 1880s.
8. In Clearwater Minnesota, the skeletons of seven giants were found in mounds. These had receding foreheads and complete double dentition.
9. At Le Crescent, Wisconsin, mounds were found to contain giant bones. Five miles north near Dresbach, the bones of people over 8 feet tall were found.
10. In 1888 seven skeletons ranging from seven to 8 feet tall were
discovered.
11. Near Toledo, Ohio, 20 skeletons were discovered with jaws and teeth "twice as large as those of present day people." The account also noted that odd hieroglyphics were found with the bodies.
12. Miners in Lovelock Cave, California, discovered a very tall, red-haired mummy In 1911
13. This mummy eventually went to a fraternal lodge where it was used for "initiation purposes."
14. In 1931, skeletons from 8 � to 10 feet long were found in the Humbolt lake bed in California.
15. In 1932, Ellis Wright found human tracks in the gypsum rock at White Sands, New Mexico. His discovery was later backed up by Fred Arthur, Supervisor of the Lincoln National Park and others who reported that each footprint was 22 inches long and from 8 to 10 inches wide. They were certain the prints were human in origin due to the outline of the perfect prints coupled with a readily apparent instep.
16. During World War II, author Ivan T. Sanderson tells of how his crew was bulldozing through sedimentary rock when it stumbled upon what appeared to be a graveyard. In it were crania that measured from 22 to 24 inches from base to crown nearly three times as large as an adult human skull. Had the creatures to whom these skulls belonged been properly proportioned, they undoubtedly would have been at least 12 feet tall or taller.
17. In 1947 a local newspaper reported the discovery of nine-foot-tall
skeletons by amateur archeologists working in Death Valley.
18. The archeologists involved also claimed to have found what appeared to be the bones of tigers and dinosaurs with the human remains.
19. The Catalina Islands, off California, are the home of dwarf mammoth bones that were once roasted in ancient fire pits. These were roasted and eaten by human-like creatures who were giants with double rows of teeth.
THE KOSSUTH GIANTS:
Kossuth: October was a month of some excitement in scientific circles as seven strange and gigantic mummies were discovered just outside of Kossuth Center. Marvin Rainwater, a local farmer, had been digging a new well on his property and struck a deposit of very hard stone about nine feet below the topsoil. In attempting to dig it out, he found that it was more than four feet wide in every direction. Removing it would be a terrific chore. He considered the possibility that this was a layer of bedrock, but that would certainly be odd that close to the surface. Further, being somewhat familiar with geologic deposits, he knew that the stone was not the familiar limestone for which such Eastern Iowa areas like Stone City are famous. This was something else entirely. Upon close inspection Rainwater also saw that the stone was not as rough as might be expected in a natural formation, but was in fact smooth and polished. Now very curious as to the nature of the find, he called several friends from surrounding farms and they began an excavation. They discovered that it was not a single stone, but rather one of at least several irregularly cut slabs stretching out over a wide area, yet fitted so tightly together that not even a knife blade could be put between them. Each slab measured roughly 8'x10', and when struck with a sledge seemed to ring with a hollowness that might indicate this was not a floor but the outside portion of a ceiling. Rainwater wondered if he had not stumbled upon some sort of buried stone structure on his property. Believing that there might be a way to parlay living other than farming if he played his cards right, Mr. Rainwater contacted Georg Von Podebrad College, who in turn dispatched a team of archeologists, anthropologists, and geologists to the site. The researchers were delighted with the anomalies presented them. Firstly, the stone was not at all native to Iowa, but was in fact basalt-a hard, dense volcanic rock composed of plagioclase, augite, and magnetite. The type of stone used by the Egyptians to build their massive monuments. The depth of the slabs indicated that they had been there for a very long time, predating the advent of the kind of modern transportation and heavy machinery needed to bring such a large quantity of foreign stone to Iowa, and quite probably the slabs had been laid down before the last glacial age.
It is impossible to gauge with any certainty just how long they had been there. After the soil covering the slabs had been entirely removed, the area covered by the stones was a perfect square measuring 188 feet on each side. Digging around the perimeter revealed that Rainwater had been correct, the structure did go deeper into the ground. The cyclopean structure was revealed to be a pyramid similar in shape to one located at Marietta, Ohio, although those mounds and monuments erected by the prehistoric Indians were made of sun dried brick mixed with rushes. This technique, too, is curiously similar to the Egyptian technique of brick making with straw and mud. It took many months, but the entire structure was finally exposed, and on the eastern side was found a massive filled in archway with strong resemblance to those of ancient Greece. At the bottom of the arch was a smaller arch, measuring only 6' to the capstone. This too had been filled in and blocked off. With genuine awe and some hesitancy the scientists of the Rainwater Site began the work of opening the smaller entryway, wondering what light from the first torch penetrated the gloom of the ancient structure, Albert Grosslockner gasped at what he thought were seven huge and exquisitely detailed statues seated in a ring around a very large and deep fire pit. Moving closer, he realized that the figures were not carved of stone, but were in fact the mummified remains of some giant humanoid race.
Could what they found be in fact a prehistoric burial vault for some pre-human creatures or was it a prison designed to hold some freakish aberration of nature? The figures, were each fully ten feet tall even when measured seated in their cross-legged positions. They all faced into the circle with arms folded across their legs. Upon close examination it was seen that they had double rows of teeth in their upper and lower jaws. The foreheads were unusually low and sloping, with exceedingly prominent brows. The skin of the mysterious giants was wrinkled and tough, as though tanned, and the hair of each of them was distinctly red in color. Their faces, still very expressive even in death, taunted the scientists with their silence. Who, or what, were these creatures, how had they come to be locked in this stone room, and where had the stone itself come from originally? After careful excavation of the site, the bodies were removed for x-ray and autopsy examination. The excitement over the find was far in excess of the "Gypsum Man" find in Iowa so many years before-a hoax from which the Putnam Museum of Davenport had never fully recovered from. These giants were very real. The medical examinations demonstrated that there was definite skeletal structure, that they were organic creatures who had once been very much alive.
One explanation for the mummies might lie in the legends of the Paiute Indians who tell of a race of red-haired giants who were their mortal enemies centuries ago. They were called the Si-Te-Cahs, driven from Nevada by a previously unheard of alliance of tribes. Did the Si-Te-Cahs retreat from the west to Iowa? Was the stone structure here before and simply co-opted by the giants? No one may ever know, however it is interesting to note that among the Indian relics held in the Kossuth County chapter of the State Historical Society are three robes made entirely from very long strands of red hair. We await DNA comparisons of samples taken from the mummies and the robes to determine a connection. In the mean-time, Marvin Rainwater has had his farm purchased by interested parties in Hopkins Grove for an undisclosed sum, and is quite happily no longer toiling in his fields or digging wells.
GIANT SKULLS FOUND:
Ivan T. Sanderson, a well-known zoologist and frequent guest on Johnny Carson's TONIGHT SHOW in the 1960s (usually with an exotic animal with a pangolin or a lemur), once related a curious story about a letter he received regarding an engineer who was stationed on the Aleutian island of Shemya during World War II. While building an airstrip, his crew bulldozed a group of hills and discovered under several sedimentary layers what appeared to be human remains. The Alaskan mound was in fact a graveyard of gigantic human remains, consisting of crania and long leg bones. The crania measured from 22 to 24 inches from base to crown. Since an adult skull normally measures about eight inches from back to front, such a large crania would imply an immense size for a normally proportioned human. Furthermore, every skull was said to have been neatly trepanned (a process of cutting a hole in the upper portion of the skull).
In fact, the habit of flattening the skull of an infant and forcing it to grow in an elongated shape was a practice used by ancient Peruvians, the Mayas, and the Flathead Indians of Montana. Sanderson tried to gather further proof, eventually receiving a letter from another member of the unit who confirmed the report. The letters both indicated that the Smithsonian Institution had collected the remains, yet nothing else was heard. Sanderson seemed convinced that the Smithsonian Institution had received the bizarre relics, but wondered why they would not release the data. He asks, ""...is it that these people cannot face rewriting all the textbooks?""
GIANT FOOTPRINTS:
In South Africa, a giant footprint of a woman measuring over 4 feet long has been carbon dated at approximately 9 million years old. Pointing to the probability of this being a female human-like species' foot, proportionally the two-legged being would need to be some 30 feet tall! The local African people commonly refer to this as a highly revered and sacred site. Giants, twice the size of gorillas, were found in Java.
The petrified remains of a giant were found in South Africa. A well-known anthropologist declared that these remains showed that these man's ancestors must have been giants.
REVISED ARTICLES:
In Lampec-Rancho California, in 1833, soldiers discovered a skeleton 11' 9'' long which was covered with boulders with an unidentified writing. A similar writing was unearthed on the isle of Santa Maria off the cost of Los Angeles. In July of 1887 in Eureka Nevada, a human leg was found measuring 38.9 inches form the knee to the heel. The man was over 11 foot tall. In Crittenton Arizona in 1891 a sarcophagus was uncovered containing a human 3 meters high and had 12 toes. More recently skeletons ranging from 2.8 meters to 3.12 meters were found by soviets in the Caucasus Mountains. In China skeletons 10 feet tall have been found. In the Philippines a giant human skeleton was found at gargation, Measuring 17 feet long. In the Eagle three Cole mine at Bear Creek Montana in 1920 two human molars were found three times larger than normal. In Braton Tennessee human footprints were found in solid rock 33 inches log and one foot wide. These also have six toes each.
Tools found in Morocco are so large their users must have been at least 12 foot tall. Other Giants found around the world are: the Java giant, the south China giant, and the South Africa giant. (See The Timeless Earth p. 26)
In 1833,soldiers digging a pit for a powder magazine at Lompock Rancho, California, hacked their way through a layer of cemented gravel and came up with the skeleton of a giant man about twelve feet tall. The skeleton was surrounded by carved shells, huge stone axes, and blocks of porphyry covered with unintelligible symbols. The giant was also noteworthy in still another respect :He had a double row of teeth, both upper and lower. When the natives began to attach some religious significance to the find, authorities ordered the skeleton and all the artifacts secretly reburied- and, of course, lost to the scientific study they deserved.
This particular giant, incidentally, bore marked similarity to another, that of a giant man with double rows of teeth whose skeletal remains were dug up on Santa Rosa Island, off the California coast. Subsequent research has shown that he, or his descendants, feasted on the small elephants which once lived on that island and which have vanished like the giants who ate them, countless ages ago.
Near Crittenden, Arizona, in 1891, workmen excavating for a commercial building came upon a huge stone sarcophagus eight feet below the surface. The contractor called in expert help, and the sarcophagus was opened to reveal a granite mummy case which had once held the body of a human being more than twelve feet tall -a human with six toes, according to the carving of the case. But the body had been buried so many thousands of years that it had long since turned to dust. Just another silent witness to the truth of Genesis, which tells us that there were giants in the earth in those days, the excavation of over a dozen skeletons 8 to 12 feet tall, around the world, shocked archeologists.
These skeletons were positively human. Some of these skeletal remains are on Maui in lava caves near Ulupalakua and Olowalu. An example of this is the "mysterious" disappearance of more than 50 perfectly kept gigantic antediluvian skeletons (between 10-14 feet tall) found in a cave in Arizona.
Earth Giants : over the years a number of gigantic human skeletons have been unearthed. The most distinctive of these were the remains of some American giants found in the 1880s at Tioga Point, near Sayre in Bradford County, Pennsylvania, as recounted by Robert Lyman in Forbidden Land. Some other examples include the following:
A decayed human skeleton claimed by eyewitnesses to measure around 3.28 metres (10 feet 9 inches tall), was unearthed by labourers while ploughing a vineyard in November 1856 in East Wheeling, now in West Virginia.
A human skeleton measuring 3.6 metres (12 foot) tall was unearthed at Lompock Rancho, California, in 1833 by soldiers digging in a pit for a powder magazine. The specimen had a double row of teeth and was surrounded by numerous stone axes, carved shells and porphyry blocks with abstruse symbols associated with it.
Several mummified remains of red haired humans ranging from 2-2.5 metres (6.5 feet to over 8 feet) tall were dug up at Lovelock Cave, (70 miles) north-east of Reno, Nevada, by a guano mining operation. These bones substantiated legends by the local Piute Indians regarding giants which they called Si-Te-Cahs. For some reason scientists did not seem to want to investigate these finds further so many of the bones were lost. Fortunately one of the giant Lovelock skulls is still preserved today. It measures almost 30cm (1 foot) tall and resides along with other various Lovelock artifacts in the Humboldt Museum in Winnemucca, Nevada. Some of these artifacts can also be found in the Nevada State Historical Society's museum at Reno.
THE HUBBARD DISCOVERY:
In this magazine for September, 1923, we mentioned a reported discovery by Mr. Samuel Hubbard, of remains of giants in the Grand Canyon of Arizona. Owing to press unreliability, we did not notice this to a great extent. We have now, however, obtained more knowledge on the subject, and there remains no doubt that Mr. Hubbard has actually made a discovery composed of the following parts:
(a) Petrified bodies of two human beings about 18 and 15 feet in height respectively. One of these is buried under a recent rock fall which would require several days' work to remove; the other, of which Mr. Hubbard took photographs, is in a crevice of difficult accessibility. The bodies are formed of a limestone petrification embedded in sandstone.
(b) An ancient beach, now sandstone, containing a great number of footprints of a giant race, men, women and children; the prints of adults about 17 to 20 inches in length, and corresponding in size and shape to the Carson City and Blue Ridge prints.
EVEN MORE GIANT RECORDS:
According to a press clipping, dated Nayarit, Mexico, May 14, 1926, Capts. D. W. Page and F. W. Devalda discovered the bones of a race of giants who averaged over ten feet in height. Local legends state that they came from Ecuador. Nothing more has been heard of this, but that is not surprising; the word "giant" will flutter the feathers of any scientist into rapid flight, metaphorically speaking, in the opposite direction. So also with a report from the Washington Post, June 22, 1925, and the New York Herald-Tribune, June 21, 1925. A mining party, it is reported, found skeletons measuring 10 to 12 feet, with feet 18 to 20 inches long, near Sisoguiche, Mexico. The Los Angeles Times, October 2, 1927, says that explorers in Mexico located large human bones near Tapextla, indicating a race of "gigantic size." All this, if unfounded, would be straining coincidence or imagination pretty far.
Press accounts say that the skeleton of a gigantic man, with head missing, has been unearthed at El Boquin, on the Mico River, in the Chontales district. The ribs are a yard long and four inches wide and the shin bone is too heavy for one man to carry. "Chontales" is an Indian word, meaning "wild men."
In the late 1950's during road construction in Homs southeast Turkey, many tombs of Giants were indeed unearthed. These tombs were 4 meters long, and when entered in 2 cases the human thigh bones were measured to be 47.24 inches in length. They calculated that the person who owned this Femur probably stood at fourteen to sixteen feet tall. A cast of this bone is seen at the Creationist museum in Texas.
Flavius Josephus, the noted Jewish historian of the first century A.D., described the giants as having "bodies so large and countenances so entirely different from other men that they were surprising to the sight and terrible to the hearing." And he adds that in his day, the bones of the giants were still on display!
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NOTE: THIS INFORMATION WAS TAKEN FROM VARIOUS SOURCES - WE CANNOT CONFIRM THE ACCURACY OF THESE REPORTS.
: Amo Sun Mar 06, 2022 - 08:13:03
https://www.6000years.org/frame.php?page=giants
Quoted information below, found below other articles and photos at above link.
If true....
"Flavius Josephus, the noted Jewish historian of the first century A.D., described the giants as having "bodies so large and countenances so entirely different from other men that they were surprising to the sight and terrible to the hearing." And he adds that in his day, the bones of the giants were still on display!"
Then why have they disappeared?
For me it is things that go bump in the night time ::lookaround::
: Rella Sun Mar 06, 2022 - 08:00:55
While I do believe in giants it is becoming increasingly more difficult when there is not a single concrete skeleton of one that
could support this belief.
Perhaps they have all been spirited off to Area 51??? rofl
Short of a belief that these would be on par with the ETs many also believe in what earthly reason could there be for a hoax to span 100 plus years in multiple locations.
It seems that even every one of them that was ever sketched and/or photographed has managed to disappear....
Has to be an Area 51 kind of thing or perhaps dropping them to the well on Oak Island.....
Unless their genealogy could trace back to Nephilim and they dont want people to be afraid?
Amo.. please keep posting these... one day something will turn up....
Scientifically acknowledged human giants, would pose a serious problem for present day widely accepted narratives. There certainly is good reason to hide such info, for those defending such narratives. The evidence of giants is plentiful concerning so very many other creatures, the existence of which is not denied. Much larger and possibly advanced humans though, are a big problem for the deep time evolutionary concept of simple to complex biological and societal progression postulated by those of said faith. In this world, entire peoples have been exterminated for not accepting popular or powerfully backed up narratives of the past. Cover ups such as seems to be suggested, are certainly not then, beyond the scope of fallen humanity to perpetrate in defense of their pet narratives.
It is certainly becoming apparent to a great many people, that at a certain point in our history, humanity lost knowledge and abilities the they once had. Which later peoples built upon, and I believe, even came to worship as their God's of antiquity, upon which many of their religions were built as well. Time will tell, and the truth of all things will come out in the laundry on that great day. Amen.
: Rella Sun Mar 06, 2022 - 08:27:16
If true....
"Flavius Josephus, the noted Jewish historian of the first century A.D., described the giants as having "bodies so large and countenances so entirely different from other men that they were surprising to the sight and terrible to the hearing." And he adds that in his day, the bones of the giants were still on display!"
Then why have they disappeared?
For me it is things that go bump in the night time ::lookaround::
For me it is a matter of faith.
Gen 6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. 3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. 4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. 5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Num 13:31 But the men that went up with him said, We be not able to go up against the people; for they are stronger than we. 32 And they brought up an evil report of the land which they had searched unto the children of Israel, saying, The land, through which we have gone to search it, is a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof; and all the people that we saw in it are men of a great stature. 33 And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.
Deu 2:10 The Emims dwelt therein in times past, a people great, and many, and tall, as the Anakims. 11 Which also were accounted giants, as the Anakims; but the Moabites call them Emims.
Deu 2:19 And when thou comest nigh over against the children of Ammon, distress them not, nor meddle with them: for I will not give thee of the land of the children of Ammon any possession; because I have given it unto the children of Lot for a possession. 20 (That also was accounted a land of giants: giants dwelt therein in old time; and the Ammonites call them Zamzummims; 21 A people great, and many, and tall, as the Anakims; but the LORD destroyed them before them; and they succeeded them, and dwelt in their stead:
Deu 3:11 For only Og king of Bashan remained of the remnant of giants; behold, his bedstead was a bedstead of iron; is it not in Rabbath of the children of Ammon? nine cubits was the length thereof, and four cubits the breadth of it, after the cubit of a man. 12 And this land, which we possessed at that time, from Aroer, which is by the river Arnon, and half mount Gilead, and the cities thereof, gave I unto the Reubenites and to the Gadites. 13 And the rest of Gilead, and all Bashan, being the kingdom of Og, gave I unto the half tribe of Manasseh; all the region of Argob, with all Bashan, which was called the land of giants.
Jos 12:3 And from the plain to the sea of Chinneroth on the east, and unto the sea of the plain, even the salt sea on the east, the way to Bethjeshimoth; and from the south, under Ashdothpisgah: 4 And the coast of Og king of Bashan, which was of the remnant of the giants, that dwelt at Ashtaroth and at Edrei,
Jos 13:12 All the kingdom of Og in Bashan, which reigned in Ashtaroth and in Edrei, who remained of the remnant of the giants: for these did Moses smite, and cast them out.
Jos 15:8 And the border went up by the valley of the son of Hinnom unto the south side of the Jebusite; the same is Jerusalem: and the border went up to the top of the mountain that lieth before the valley of Hinnom westward, which is at the end of the valley of the giants northward:
Jos 17:14 And the children of Joseph spake unto Joshua, saying, Why hast thou given me but one lot and one portion to inherit, seeing I am a great people, forasmuch as the LORD hath blessed me hitherto? 15 And Joshua answered them, If thou be a great people, then get thee up to the wood country, and cut down for thyself there in the land of the Perizzites and of the giants, if mount Ephraim be too narrow for thee.
Jos 18:16 And the border came down to the end of the mountain that lieth before the valley of the son of Hinnom, and which is in the valley of the giants on the north, and descended to the valley of Hinnom, to the side of Jebusi on the south, and descended to Enrogel,
The scriptures take it for granted, that there were giants. The antediluvians, and many remnants after the flood.
Apart from this, there is the abundant fossil evidence the world over, of the much larger plants and animals which once roamed this earth. Granted, in a very different time, and even place than the world now is.
: Amo Sun Mar 06, 2022 - 08:48:32
For me it is a matter of faith.
Apart from this, there is the abundant fossil evidence the world over, of the much larger plants and animals which once roamed this earth. Granted, in a very different time, and even place than the world now is.
Yes, the bible is clear ( I mentioned the Nephilim) and while we do have a relative handful of normal skeletal remains that have been discovered under archaeological discoveries, ( I say handful for there is no where near those
that should be found since God created things.) ,
those that have been photographed and examined have been normal sized people.
So I cannot help but wonder if over given time bones disintegrate or animals decimate those that turn up?
Yes fossil evidence is the world over, and as to sizes of things they have turned up some
fossilized dinosaur bones that are indicative as to their sizes but be them as old as the dinosaurs or as young as the days of Genesis... there are not more then a handful of claims of finding giants.
The Smithsonian: (Cannot be thought of separate from the US Government)
See link for additional info
https://www.gaia.com/article/this-conspiracy-claims-the-smithsonian-destroys-giant-skeletons
Around the turn of the 20th century, The New York Times, London Globe, and Scientific American published articles purporting the discovery of gigantic human skeletons, concluding that the remains were sent to the Smithsonian for further study. But the fact that this evidence was never again seen or reported, continues to elicit questions of whether the Smithsonian destroys giant skeletons in order to cover up an inconvenient anomaly in the archeological narrative we've been told.
The question has been heatedly debated over the past century or more, with researchers finding what appears to be corroborating evidence, while skeptics say the bones were simply those of massive prehistoric animals, reclassified by the Smithsonian and displayed in museums to this day.
And while physical evidence remains tenuous, there is a seemingly endless trail of written and anecdotal suggestion that a larger race of humans once walked the Earth.
A Brief History of the Smithsonian
Though it may not be immediately obvious, the Smithsonian Institution is an extension of the U.S. government with congressional members sitting on its Board of Regents. It was initially founded as "an establishment for the increase and diffusion of knowledge among men," at the endowment of philanthropist, chemist, and mineralogist James Smithson.
And while it's not a regulatory agency, it is so intrinsically tied to government that it claims immunity from state and local regulations, as well as immunity from lawsuits unless authorized by Congress.
The Smithsonian was established in 1846, and was tasked with the mission of organizing the anthropological history of the United States. It is sometimes referred to as "the nation's attic," as it has amassed somewhere in the range of 154 million items between its myriad museums, research centers, and various facilities.
The Smithsonian Destroys Giant Skulls
Looking back at newspaper clippings dating from the late 1800s into the early 1900s, Dewhurst found a multitude of instances in which citizens from disparate areas of the country uncovered massive bones, of seemingly human origin. Upon reporting these discoveries to media outlets or authorities, Dewhurst said unsuspecting citizens would shortly receive a visit from members of the Smithsonian who wasted no time sequestering the bones – allegedly bringing them to a museum or research facility, but which were never seen again.
One could also find instances of giant skulls and skeletons in local papers with pictures to boot. Take for instance this photo from the San Antonio Press showing a giant skull next to two normal skulls for size comparison.
It's worth mentioning that the time period when these skeletal remains were found was drastically different from today — yellow journalism was rampant even for some of the publications we might consider more esteemed.
Religion was also a dominating factor in many people's lives, and attempts to find literal instances of biblical stories was highly sought after. This has become one of the primary arguments against these accounts, as naysayers believe people created counterfeit skeletons or confused the bones of prehistoric megafauna and large animals for humans, hoping they had found proof in the existence of the Nephilim of the Old Testament.
Giants Discovered Throughout the World?
The U.S. is not the only country in which these alleged giants of antiquity are said to have been found. In fact, there are accounts dating back several millennia, which speak of encounters with living giants or the relics hinting at their existence.
In the world's largest prehistoric copper mine in Wales there are accounts of the discovery of thousands of massive sledgehammers alleged to weigh somewhere in the range of 60 lbs.
Whether there's any validity to this assertion is debatable, though if true would require a larger-than-life human with incredible strength to have worked the mine and wielded such a tool – the average sledgehammer today rarely weighs more than 20 lbs. This repository, known as the Great Orme mine or the "Stonehenge of copper mining," dates back some 3,500 years ago.
Another more well-known instance of alleged giants comes from the writings of Ferdinand Magellan's chronicler Antonio Pigafetta, who wrote of a giant race upon discovering Patagonia.
"One day we suddenly saw a naked man of giant stature on the shore of the port, dancing, singing, and throwing dust on his head." Pigafetta wrote.
"The captain-general sent one of our men to the giant so that he might perform the same actions as a sign of peace. Having done that, the man led the giant to an islet where the captain-general was waiting; When the giant was in the captain-general's and our presence he marveled greatly and made signs with one finger raised upward, believing we had come from the sky. He was so tall that we reached only to his waist, and he was well proportioned."
According to the writings of Pigafetta, Magellan and crew attempted to return to Italy with two of the giants they had encountered, though they were unable to survive the long trip back across the Atlantic.
Skeptics say the people referred to in these accounts were likely members of the Tehuelche – a native tribe that may have stood slightly larger in stature due to the strength required to survive in Patagonia's harsh climate, though it's questionable whether they were much larger in height than the average human.
But there are in fact a number of photographs from the late 1800s showing members of the Ona tribe that inhabited the Tierra del Fuego region of Patagonia who clearly stood significantly taller than most humans – six-and-a-half-foot-tall women and men well over seven feet.
This account has also been called into question as some say it may have simply been an instance of giantism, with subsequent reports embellished as to make Magellan's travels sound more exciting.
However, this account was later confirmed by English explorer James Byron, whose story of encountering a race of 9-foot giants in Patagonia was published by the London Chronicle. Other writings from the expeditions of Sir Francis Drake, Francis Fletcher and Sir Thomas Cavendish also reported towering Patagonians and their deceased bodies.
Could these native tribes corroborate the questionable stories of ancient European explorers?
Yes fossil evidence is the world over, and as to sizes of things they have turned up some
fossilized dinosaur bones that are indicative as to their sizes but be them as old as the dinosaurs or as young as the days of Genesis... there are not more then a handful of claims of finding giants.
The above statement is incorrect. Unless referring perhaps to humans only, but even at that, the claims I have presented alone represent far more than a handful. Actual bones and visible evidence is more in the handful range. Nevertheless it does exist and is simply ignored by those who won't travel down that road. Giant plant and animal fossils however, are very abundant, as far as fossils go. I have posted many links and articles regarding the same. Both Creationists and evolutionists understand that plant and animal life at least, were much larger in the past than they are now. The devil himself understands the major problem giant human fossils would present to one of his pet narratives. It is in his best interest to keep such knowledge hidden as long as possible in any case, to allow for other theories to be fully developed and ready at hand to address such, if or when necessary. Many of which are being formulated now, as the present narrative is coming under increasing scrutiny. There are some good reasons that human fossils would not be as abundant as plant and animal fossils, regarding the flood narrative, which do not include deliberate attempts to hide such.
That certain narratives are and have been censured as far as possible, is evident for all to see in the following video addressing just such attempts regarding Creationists access to evidence for analysis. This because those they needed permission from knew they were Creationists.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeeXMtbPtQE
Many "scientists" like the left, do not want those who disagree with them, to have the same opportunities they have to research and or defend their positions. This is not a far cry away from removing evidence if possible as well. More sinister things have happened.
For those genuinely interested in this topic, I recommend watching the many YouTube videos by Tim Alberino and L.A. Marzulli. They are not crackpots or conspiracists; they have traveled the world and documented the existence of giants (Nephilim).
They document and explain why there are so few giant bones today, a coverup, and by who.
After Noah's flood, the Bible lists the Nephilim tribes; Rephaim, Zuzim, Emim, Horim, Avim, and Anakim. I will not mention them, but the three main theories on how the Nephilim survived the flood are interesting.
I will conjecture that the post-flood giants were smaller in stature than their pre-flood ancestors for some biological reasons. The law of physics, everything degrades over time and breeding.
Giant bones have been discovered in the Americas, and I am surprised we never heard about DNA testing of any of them? Some Native American tribes have an oral history of giants menacing their ancestors, and they eventually killed them all off. We have all seen western movies where the Indian lifts his right arm and hand and says "how." Their oral tradition says this was to count and make sure there were five fingers per hand and not six.
I postulate the Nephilim started fleeing the area of Israel in the days of Joshua to survive extinction and came to the Americas.
Because of barometric conditions and a protective canopy surrounding the planet (higher O2 content, increased global atmospheric pressure, filtering radiation) before the deluge, all animal and plant life grew huge, as the fossil record records. It stands to reason that if animals and plants grew to mammoth proportions, humans had to be much larger also? Note that is a question.
If the above is true, there were giants in those days and after that. Imagine the size of the first couple generations of Nephilim.
As it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be... How was it in the days of Noe? In my opinion, Genesis 6:1-4 answers that question. Before the Lord's second coming, I take it to mean that there will be the third incursion of these Nephilim.
: Dennis1209 Mon Mar 07, 2022 - 07:01:42
For those genuinely interested in this topic, I recommend watching the many YouTube videos by Tim Alberino and L.A. Marzulli. They are not crackpots or conspiracists; they have traveled the world and documented the existence of giants (Nephilim).
They document and explain why there are so few giant bones today, a coverup, and by who.
After Noah's flood, the Bible lists the Nephilim tribes; Rephaim, Zuzim, Emim, Horim, Avim, and Anakim. I will not mention them, but the three main theories on how the Nephilim survived the flood are interesting.
I will conjecture that the post-flood giants were smaller in stature than their pre-flood ancestors for some biological reasons. The law of physics, everything degrades over time and breeding.
Giant bones have been discovered in the Americas, and I am surprised we never heard about DNA testing of any of them? Some Native American tribes have an oral history of giants menacing their ancestors, and they eventually killed them all off. We have all seen western movies where the Indian lifts his right arm and hand and says "how." Their oral tradition says this was to count and make sure there were five fingers per hand and not six.
I postulate the Nephilim started fleeing the area of Israel in the days of Joshua to survive extinction and came to the Americas.
Because of barometric conditions and a protective canopy surrounding the planet (higher O2 content, increased global atmospheric pressure, filtering radiation) before the deluge, all animal and plant life grew huge, as the fossil record records. It stands to reason that if animals and plants grew to mammoth proportions, humans had to be much larger also? Note that is a question.
If the above is true, there were giants in those days and after that. Imagine the size of the first couple generations of Nephilim.
As it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be... How was it in the days of Noe? In my opinion, Genesis 6:1-4 answers that question. Before the Lord's second coming, I take it to mean that there will be the third incursion of these Nephilim.
I don't go for the whole Nephilim thing, as in angels having intercourse with human women. I believe the pre-flood world was very different from this present one. With much larger people, plants, and animals, with an atmosphere far better equipped to support them.
: Amo Tue Mar 08, 2022 - 20:04:11
I don't go for the whole Nephilim thing, as in angels having intercourse with human women. I believe the pre-flood world was very different from this present one. With much larger people, plants, and animals, with an atmosphere far better equipped to support them.
The belief in the first century (as recorded in the book of Enoch) was the Nephilim were angel/human hybrids. Our Lord never contradicted that understanding.
: DaveW Wed Mar 09, 2022 - 14:19:38
The belief in the first century (as recorded in the book of Enoch) was the Nephilim were angel/human hybrids. Our Lord never contradicted that understanding.
And as we are told that the words we read were inspired by God, I believe.
: Rella Thu Mar 10, 2022 - 08:01:27
And as we are told that the words we read were inspired by God, I believe.
Since Enoch is not scripture, I do not think it is necessarily "inspired." But it was the common understanding in 1st century Judea.
I lean toward thinking that was the case - Nephilim being angel/human hybrids. But I do not make it a matter of doctrine. It is just my opinion.
: DaveW Wed Mar 09, 2022 - 14:19:38
The belief in the first century (as recorded in the book of Enoch) was the Nephilim were angel/human hybrids. Our Lord never contradicted that understanding.
He never addressed the subject. If everything that was believed in the first century is likely true if our Lord did not specifically point it out as being wrong, we have a whole lot to learn and incorporate into our understanding. Since angels neither marry nor are given in marriage, why would they be equipped to procreate?
Mar 12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them,
Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? 25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.Even if they could, why would God allow for such. He doesn't even allow us to see angels but upon rare occasions. Let alone interbreed with them.
A little side trip.... rofl
Puzzling Extinct Giants Depicted On 12,000-Year-Old Rock Paintings In The Colombian Amazon Rainforest Baffle Scientists
https://www.ancientpages.com/2022/03/12/puzzling-extinct-giants-depicted-on-12000-year-old-rock-paintings-in-the-colombian-amazon-rainforest-baffle-scientists/
: Rella Sat Mar 12, 2022 - 07:45:02
A little side trip.... rofl
Puzzling Extinct Giants Depicted On 12,000-Year-Old Rock Paintings In The Colombian Amazon Rainforest Baffle Scientists
https://www.ancientpages.com/2022/03/12/puzzling-extinct-giants-depicted-on-12000-year-old-rock-paintings-in-the-colombian-amazon-rainforest-baffle-scientists/
Interesting. Certainly not the only rack paintings or ancient artwork which causes problems for the present widely accepted narratives.
https://mexicounexplained.com/ancient-dinosaur-figurines-acambaro/
Quoted article below from link above.
The Ancient Dinosaur Figurines of Acámbaro
In the late 1960s American detective author Erle Stanley Gardner stood before a collection of over 30,000 figurines. He had heard about this collection many years ago and felt a deep sense of astonishment when seeing it in person at this modest house in the small rural town of Acámbaro in the state of Guanajuato, Mexico. Gardner, the writer who came up with great titles like The Case of the Black Cat and Granny Get Your Gun, and who created such memorable characters as Perry Mason, Della Street and Lester Leith had a real life mystery in front of him. The figurines were fantastic and seemingly out of place. Many of them featured people of various races and some 10 per cent of them looked like our modern depictions of dinosaurs. These dinosaurs were sometimes accompanied by humans; some of the figures had dinosaurs wrestling with people or men even riding dinosaurs. Of course, dinosaur representations in ancient art were unheard of because humans did not coexist with these prehistoric creatures. The creator of Perry Mason, who was considered to be the best-selling American author at the time of his death, was asked to examine the collection by a friend, the Harvard-educated anthropologist Charles Hapgood, who was one of the many voices chiming in on this controversy at the time. Hapgood knew that Gardner's love of sleuthing did not just apply to fiction writing and Gardner's many years as a trial attorney would be helpful in solving the mystery of these anomalous figurines.
Over the years the massive collection has been proclaimed to be an elaborate hoax by people in the more traditional fields of science and has been shunned by most mainstream archaeologists. While many have thought that the whole discussion was put to rest years ago, the Acámbaro figures have begun to generate interest again among fringe scientists, Christian "young earth" proponents, believers in alternative universe theories and those who follow the "New Chronology" writings of Russian Anatoly Fomenko which claim that written history itself has been adjusted over time to fit the agendas of the elites. Some investigators in more traditional scientific fields have also been recently drawn to these figures once again, as the controversy has become debated online. The figures, which for many years have been literally and figuratively "crated up" and not been available for examination are now on display for all to see at the Waldemar Julsrud Museum in Acámbaro, Guanajuato.
The story of the Acámbaro figurines begins in 1945. A German merchant named Waldemar Julsrud was riding his horse along the edges of a mountain called El Toro just outside of town. In a dried out riverbed he noticed an unusual part of a clay figurine sticking out of the dirt. He began Acambaro4digging and found a number of curious igures near the riverbed. Julsrud was already familiar with pre-Columbian ceramics as he had one of the largest collections of artifacts from the pre-Classic Chupicuaro culture then amassed. While he wasn't selling hardware, he was digging up or acquiring pieces for his collection and over the years Julsrud became quite the amateur archaeologist. He had never seen the types of figures that he had uncovered at the base of El Toro, so he asked one of his employees named Odilon Tinajero, if he could find more of these figurines for him. Julsrud would pay Tinajero one peso for each figurine brought to him intact or with pieces that were easily put together. Thus began his collection, and over a 5 to 6 year period, Julsrud gathered over 35,000 of these strange figures.
In 1947 when Julsrud published a booklet on his discoveries called Enigmas del pasado – Enigmas of the Past – the figurines began to receive international attention. In March of 1951, Lowell Harmer, a veteran writer for the Los Angeles Times Acambaro2published an article titled: "Mexico Finds Give Hint of Lost World: Dinosaur Statues Point to Men Who Lived in Age of Reptiles." Harmer had visited Acámbaro earlier that year and described the sheer volume of the collection in Julsrud's house wrote that the figurines "filled the floors, the tables and the wall cabinets to overflowing." The Times writer also wondered in his article, "How could it be a hoax? Not even in Mexico, where money is so scarce, could anyone afford the labor of these thousands of statues at the low prices Julsrud is paying." While seemingly convinced of the collection's authenticity, as an objective writer Harmer finished off his article by saying, "I am a writer, not an archaeologist. It will be up to the experts to decide." In the next few years the story was picked up by the tabloid press and made it to the magazines specializing in stories of the fanciful and the bizarre. One article of note appeared in the February/March 1952 issue of Fate magazine titled "Did Man Tame the Dinosaur?" A clear reference to some of the figurines showing men roping and riding the creatures.
The following year, 1953, the Mexican government got involved in the Acámbaro mystery. It sent 4 archaeologists from the Instituto Nacional de Antropología e Historia – also called INAH – in Mexico City to investigate. They set up a dig site about a mile from Julsrud's original discovery location near the base of the mountain called El Toro. They dug a test put going about 2 meters down and discovered dozens of figurines similar to Julsrud's, including dinosaurs. INAH then issued a statement that the figurines did correspond to the pre-Classic civilization of the Chupicuaro and could date to as early as 800 BC, but not the dinosaur ones. The scientists concluded that even though the dinosaurs were found among other similar figurines in the same archaeological strata, they couldn't possibly be anything but modern productions as human interaction with dinosaurs was impossible. The Instituto did no further excavations and after the 1950s refused to issue permits for other archaeologists to make new excavations.
On the American side of the border an anthropological organization dedicated to preserving Native American culture, the Amerind Foundation, sent archaeologist Charles Di Peso down to examine the figurines. Di Peso published his findings in volume 18 of the scientific journal American Antiquity in the year 1953 and in the prestigious Archaeology magazine the same year. Those who do not believe the figurines to be part of a hoax have pointed out that Di Peso went down to Mexico with a clear bias to expose the figures as fakes and that he did not approach the problem of the figurines with an open mind. Although having the backing of the scientific establishment, Di Peso did make claims that should be scrutinized more closely. For example, in his American Antiquity article, Di Peso states:
"None of the specimens were marred by patination nor did they possess the surface coating of soluble salts... The figures were broken, in most cases, where the appendages attached themselves to the body of the figurines... No parts were missing. Furthermore, none of the broken surfaces were worn smooth. In the entire collection of 32,000 specimens no Acambaro5shovel, mattock, or pick marks were noted."
He also stated, "Further investigation revealed that a family living in the vicinity of Acámbaro make these figurines during the winter months when their fields are idle." In his writing Di Peso alleged that after the figures were made that they were "planted" in certain locations, and in his American Antiquity article he tells the tale of a botched excavation in which he witnessed figurines coming up out of a hole mixed with fresh backfill and even fresh manure. In the end of his article Di Peso states, "Thus the investigation ended: it seems almost superfluous to state that the Acámbaro figurines are not prehistoric nor were they made by a prehistoric race who lived in association with Mesozoic reptiles."
t was not long before Di Peso's articles and claims were shot full of holes. For one, Di Peso only spent 2 days in Acámbaro and only spent 4 hours examining Julsrud's collection in his home. Di Peso did not set up and conduct an excavation on his own. He also did not take into consideration that Julsrud's collection included near-perfect figurines purchased from villagers as per Julsrud's own 016request. When he began his collection, Julsrud specified that he would pay one peso for each intact figure. There were plenty of pieces and broken figures that did not make it to the over 30,000 in Julsrud's home.
The Di Peso articles caught the eye of Charles Hapgood, the Harvard-trained archaeologist and friend of Perry Mason creator Erle Stanley Gardner. Hapgood had years of experience and the academic credentials to analyze the Julsrud collection and in 1954 he spent a considerable amount of time in Acámbaro. Hapgood refuted most of Di Peso's claims point by point. Di Peso claimed that there were no missing pieces. Hapgood found boxes and boxes of parts that could not be put together. Di Peso claimed that there was no discoloring or encrusted dirt on the figures. Hapgood observed that dirt and patination were evident on the figures in spite of Julsrud's requirement for cleaned, intact figurines to earn the one 011peso reward. Di Peso alleged that there were no pick marks from shoveling on any of the figurines. Hapgood documented the opposite. One of the big elements of the hoax proposed by Di Peso was his observation that one of the excavations he witnessed was bringing up fresh dirt from a recent backfill. Hapgood had an answer for this, too. In documenting the excavation procedure, Hapgood wrote, "An important point that came out was that when the digger stopped work in the middle of excavating a cache, he filled in the hole, to protect it from the many small boys of the neighborhood. This may have a bearing on the accusations of fraud..." The final point dispelled by Hapgood was that the villagers were making the figurines during their "off time" in the winter. The sheer number of figures, both intact and partial, would take many families an incredible amount of time to produce. In the next decade, Erle Stanley Gardner would add to this sentiment in his 1969 book about Acámbaro called The Host with the Big Hat. He writes, "I don't believe that it would have been at all possible for any group of people to have made these figures, to have paid for the burro-load of wood necessary to 'fire' them, take them out and bury them, wait for the ground to resume its natural hardness which would take from one to ten years, and then 'discover' these figures and dig them up—all for a gross price of twelve cents per figure." Gardner also concluded "It is absolutely, positively out of the question to think that these artifacts which we saw could have been planted."
As a scientist, Charles Hapgood knew of the need for concrete dating of the pieces using the most up-to-date methods. In 1968 he submitted three samples to Isotopes Incorporated of New Jersey for radiocarbon dating. The first sample came back as three thousand five hundred and ninety years old, plus or minus 100 years. The second sample came up as six thousand four hundred and eighty years old, plus or minus one hundred and seventy years. The third sample came up with a date of three thousand and sixty years old, plus or minus one hundred and twenty years.
To be thorough, Hapgood also submitted four samples to the University of Pennsylvania Museum for thermoluminescent dating, a more accurate way to date pottery. All four samples came up with a date of 2,500 BC, plus or minus one hundred and ninety years. Dr. Froelich Rainey, realizing the importance of accuracy in the dating of these pieces did 18 runs on each of the 4 samples and came up with the same results.
The last attempt to date the figures occurred in 1976. Gary Carriveau and Mark Han also used the thermoluminescent dating technique on 20 of the figures. All of the samples failed the "plateau test" which indicated that dates obtained from these figurines using high-temperature thermoluminescent dating were not reliable and lacked significance. Based on the signal regeneration found in some of the samples, the Carriveau-Han team estimated that the figurines were fired sometime in the late 1930s or early 1940s.
So, are these dinosaur figurines authentic archaeological finds of great importance, or are they part of an elaborate hoax? One must ask if this were a hoax, who would benefit from it? Waldemar Julsrud made no money from the sales of the figurines or from tourism connected to his collection. No archaeologists have made names or reputations for themselves because of the dinosaurs of Acámbaro. The Mexican government wants to ignore these figures and prohibits any excavations in the area. Why do they not want more investigation into these figures? As with everything presented on Mexico Unexplained, I encourage you to do your own investigation. Maybe you can finally solve the enigma of the dinosaurs of Acámbaro.
: Rella Sat Mar 12, 2022 - 07:45:02
A little side trip.... rofl
Puzzling Extinct Giants Depicted On 12,000-Year-Old Rock Paintings In The Colombian Amazon Rainforest Baffle Scientists
https://www.ancientpages.com/2022/03/12/puzzling-extinct-giants-depicted-on-12000-year-old-rock-paintings-in-the-colombian-amazon-rainforest-baffle-scientists/
The first actual evidence I heard of was giant skulls and leg bones found in a cave in Peru, not that far from where you mention.
: DaveW Mon Mar 14, 2022 - 05:39:30
The first actual evidence I heard of was giant skulls and leg bones found in a cave in Peru, not that far from where you mention.
Cool.
Now, are they still in existence or on display somewhere?
: Rella Mon Mar 14, 2022 - 07:02:16
Cool.
Now, are they still in existence or on display somewhere?
I have no idea.
https://www.google.com/search?q=giant%20human%20bones%20on%20display%20in%20Peru&tbm=isch&tbs=rimg:CYbb5kzqSuxPYaAsH1lSsaGNsgIMCgIIABABOgQIABAA&hl=en-US&sa=X&ved=0CBIQuIIBahcKEwi479Ww48b2AhUAAAAAHQAAAAAQBw&biw=414&bih=715#imgrc=_i9dDUUQOWfeVM (https://www.google.com/search?q=giant%20human%20bones%20on%20display%20in%20Peru&tbm=isch&tbs=rimg:CYbb5kzqSuxPYaAsH1lSsaGNsgIMCgIIABABOgQIABAA&hl=en-US&sa=X&ved=0CBIQuIIBahcKEwi479Ww48b2AhUAAAAAHQAAAAAQBw&biw=414&bih=715#imgrc=_i9dDUUQOWfeVM)
I'm on board
: Jaime Mon Mar 14, 2022 - 19:03:43
https://www.google.com/search?q=giant%20human%20bones%20on%20display%20in%20Peru&tbm=isch&tbs=rimg:CYbb5kzqSuxPYaAsH1lSsaGNsgIMCgIIABABOgQIABAA&hl=en-US&sa=X&ved=0CBIQuIIBahcKEwi479Ww48b2AhUAAAAAHQAAAAAQBw&biw=414&bih=715#imgrc=_i9dDUUQOWfeVM (https://www.google.com/search?q=giant%20human%20bones%20on%20display%20in%20Peru&tbm=isch&tbs=rimg:CYbb5kzqSuxPYaAsH1lSsaGNsgIMCgIIABABOgQIABAA&hl=en-US&sa=X&ved=0CBIQuIIBahcKEwi479Ww48b2AhUAAAAAHQAAAAAQBw&biw=414&bih=715#imgrc=_i9dDUUQOWfeVM)
I'm on board
Not so sure.... the first photo that came up on that link is a photoshop from a contest.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worth1000
I wouldn't doubt some are, but not likely all of them.
No doubt there are more fakes now, than the real thing. Of course, this is what I would do as well, if I wanted to cast doubt upon such. Not to mention other less devious intentions. It is certainly very easy to do such today. I would say anything more than two to three times larger than we are at present, is probably fake. I don't think the many actual giant animals they have found from the past which still exist today in much smaller form, were much bigger than two to three times their present size. This, I think would be a good indication of what to expect in humans as well.
https://www.reddit.com/r/FossilHunting/comments/6b8lp5/fossilized_giant_human_knee_bone_this_guy_would/
Interesting.
Quoted post at link above.
Honestly, It's way to big to be human. The person would be somewhere around 12' feet tall, probably taller. This has been in my family for 30 years or so. I've been researching it off and on for t 20 years. I can't find anything in the fossil record that looks like it. On one occasion just doing an internet search, I finally found something that looked just like it. I click on it to see what animal it's from, and it was human. I've taken it to professionals and they have no idea. I take it to my chiropractor and she says, wow I wouldn't want to adjust whoever that knee belongs to. So yeah, it looks just like a human knee bone, just to big.
: Amo Sat May 11, 2019 - 12:21:57
https://hubpages.com/education/American-History-Censored-Mound-Builders-Giants-of-Antiquity-and-Hollow-Earth
Not so concerned with the hollow earth part or not. Do you think there has been a cover up or not?
One does not need to cover up something that never existed.
There is no proof at all that any advanced society developed in North America prior to the arrival of European settlers. The natives were primarily hunter-gatherers with extremely primitive tools and simplistic religion. The ability to read and write was never developed and as a result the only records passed down through the years were oral. Civilizations in Central and South America were much more advanced and organized than any group in North America.
The only proof of hollowness is in the mental capacity of those who espouse a hollow earth. Once again there is no substantial proof of any of it - not even a good story.
Fools will continue to believe fantasy even as they deny the logic of truth. Proof is needed.
that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
Choir Loft
One does not need to cover up something that never existed.
There is no proof at all that any advanced society developed in North America prior to the arrival of European settlers. The natives were primarily hunter-gatherers with extremely primitive tools and simplistic religion. The ability to read and write was never developed and as a result the only records passed down through the years were oral. Civilizations in Central and South America were much more advanced and organized than any group in North America.
The only proof of hollowness is in the mental capacity of those who espouse a hollow earth. Once again there is no substantial proof of any of it - not even a good story.
Fools will continue to believe fantasy even as they deny the logic of truth. Proof is needed.
that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
Come off it.............
We concentrate on the North American part of "everything" because that is where we live and we should question everythy claim that is out there.....
BUT you say ..........
One does not need to cover up something that never existed.
I ask... Anywhere?
Careful how you answe because it is your God and mine who instructed Moses to write about Giants......
The footnotes of the following link should not be missed
https://answersingenesis.org/bible-characters/giants-in-the-bible/
This article surveys all of the individuals and people groups described as giants in Scripture. Next, some ancient records and archaeological data that corroborate some of the biblical data will be examined. The article concludes with a study of how big these people could have been based on what we currently understand about genetics and biology.
Old Testament Giants
One of the earliest mentions of giants in the Bible is found in Genesis 14.
In the fourteenth year Chedorlaomer and the kings that were with him came and attacked the Rephaim in Ashteroth Karnaim, the Zuzim in Ham, the Emim in Shaveh Kiriathaim, and the Horites in their mountain of Seir . . . . Then they turned back and came to En Mishpat (that is, Kadesh), and attacked all the country of the Amalekites, and also the Amorites who dwelt in Hazezon Tamar (Genesis 14:5–7, emphasis added).
Genesis 14 does not reveal that the Rephaim, Zuzim, Emim, or Amorites were giants, but this information can be found in other places.
The Amorites
The Amorites are mentioned more than 80 times in Scripture, and early on, some were allied with Abraham (Genesis 14:13). They were descendants of Noah's grandson Canaan (Genesis 10:15–16). Although the Bible does not provide this information, the Jewish general-turned-historian Josephus gives the name of their ancestor as Amorreus.1 While the Amorites are mentioned in the same contexts as other giants a few times, they are specifically described as giants in the Minor Prophets.
Yet it was I who destroyed the Amorite before them, whose height was like the height of the cedars, and he was as strong as the oaks; yet I destroyed his fruit above and his roots beneath. Also it was I who brought you up from the land of Egypt, and led you forty years through the wilderness, to possess the land of the Amorite (Amos 2:9–10).
Through Amos, God clearly stated that the Amorites were generally very tall and strong. Some may downplay the description of the Amorites in this passage, since these verses employ figurative language, but there are some good reasons to take this passage in a straightforward manner.2
The idea that the Amorites were giants is supported by the report of the spies whom Moses sent through the land of Canaan. The Amorites were one of the people groups they saw (Numbers 13:29), and they claimed that "all the people whom we saw in it are men of great stature" (Numbers 13:32). It is telling that in their response, Joshua and Caleb did not challenge the size of the land's inhabitants (Numbers 14:6–9).3
The Emim
Deuteronomy 2 reveals that the Emim, which likely means "terrors," were giants:
The Emim had dwelt there in times past, a people as great and numerous and tall as the Anakim. They were also regarded as giants [Hebrew rephaim], like the Anakim, but the Moabites call them Emim (Deuteronomy 2:10–11).
Moses told the people that the Emim used to live in the territory that God had given to the descendants of Lot's son Moab (Genesis 19:37).
The Zuzim (Zamzummim)
The Zamzummim (almost certainly the same as Zuzim in Genesis 14:5) were also called giants and listed in the same chapter as the Emim:
[The land of Ammon] was also regarded as a land of giants [Hebrew rephaim]; giants [rephaim] formerly dwelt there. But the Ammonites call them Zamzummim, a people as great and numerous and tall as the Anakim. But the Lord destroyed them before them, and they dispossessed them and dwelt in their place (Deuteronomy 2:20–21).
These verses explain that a group of giants known as Zamzummim had lived in the land of Ammon, "a land of giants." God destroyed the Zamzummim so that the descendants of Lot's son Ben-Ammi (the Ammonites) could live in the land (Genesis 19:38).4
According to Genesis 14:5, the Zuzim were in the land of Ham. This may be in reference to Noah's son, Ham, since they descended from him. But it is more likely a reference to the Hamathites, who were descendants of Canaan, Ham's son. While the Zuzim and Zamzummim may have been different people groups, there are enough similarities in name, description, and geographical location to infer that they were variant names for the same group.
Rephaim
The most common term used to describe giants in the Bible is rephaim (e.g., Deuteronomy 3:11, 13). It may refer to a certain people group,5 or it may be a term that simply means giants. The singular form, raphah, also appears several times (e.g., 2 Samuel 21:16, 18, 20).6
The third chapter of Deuteronomy contains an interesting account of the victory of the Israelites over Sihon, the king of the Amorites, and Og, the king of Bashan.7 It is here that we learn an intriguing detail about Og:
For only Og king of Bashan remained of the remnant of the giants [rephaim]. Indeed his bedstead was an iron bedstead. (Is it not in Rabbah of the people of Ammon?) Nine cubits is its length and four cubits its width, according to the standard cubit (Deuteronomy 3:11).
Some translations use the word sarcophagus (NEB) or coffin (TEV, CEV) in place of bedstead, for the Hebrew word עֶרֶשׂ (eres). The majority of English Bibles render this term as bed or bedstead, which makes sense since eres means couch, divan, bed, or bedstead. Also, it would be indeed strange to translate it as sarcophagus since these were made of stone or marble, and Og's "bedstead" was made of iron.8
Whether Moses referred to Og's bed or coffin is not particularly relevant to the discussion at hand. However, the size of this object is noteworthy. We are told that it was nine cubits long and four cubits in width "according to the standard cubit." Since the standard cubit is approximately 18 inches long, then Og's bed or coffin was about 13.5 feet long and 6 feet wide. To put this in perspective, if stood up on end, the height of this bed would have been exactly twice as tall as a person who is 6 foot 9 inches tall. Of course, he may not have been as large as his bed. Some authors have attempted to downplay the significance of these dimensions, but the Bible clearly identifies Og as a giant.
The Nephilim
The earliest mention in giants in the Bible is just prior to the Flood account.
There were giants [nephilim] on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown (Genesis 6:4).9
The word translated as "giants" in this verse is the Hebrew word nephilim, and many Bible versions simply transliterate it as such. There has been much debate over the meaning of this word. Some believe it comes from the Hebrew verb naphal, while others claim that it is from the Aramaic noun naphil.10 These individuals are described in Hebrew as gibborim ("mighty men").11
The nephilim were mentioned again when the spies returned from their exploratory mission of the land of Canaan. These men reported that Ahiman, Sheshai, and Talmai (descendants of Anak, progenitor of the Anakim) dwelt in Hebron. They also stated, "the people who dwell in the land are strong; the cities are fortified and very large; moreover we saw the descendants of Anak there" (Numbers 13:28). The chapter concludes with ten of the spies giving "a bad report" trying to convince the Israelites that they could not conquer the land:
The land through which we have gone, in spying it out, is a land that devours its inhabitants; and all the people whom we saw in it are men of great size. There also we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak are part of the Nephilim); and we became like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight" (Numbers 13:32—33, NASB).12
The Anakim
The Anakim were mentioned in several of these passages. They were perhaps the best known of the giants dwelling in the land of Canaan at the time of the Exodus. As stated in the verse above, they were part of the nephilim. If nephilim simply refers to giants in general, then the Anakim are just said to be giants in Numbers 13:33, which is consistent with their description in this passage. So the Amorites and other giant people would also be nephilim. If nephilim refers to a particular giant tribe, then the Anakim were part of this line.
Numbers 13:22 states that Ahiman, Sheshai, and Talmai were descendants of Anak, who was obviously the namesake of the Anakim. Both the Emim and Zamzummim were compared to the Anakim, as they were both "a people as great and numerous and tall as the Anakim" (Deuteronomy 2:10, 21; 9:2).
Anak was the son of Arba (Joshua 15:13). Little is known about Arba, and his ancestry is not provided. However, he was apparently somewhat legendary as indicated by the parenthetical statements in the text when his name appears. The city of Hebron, where Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob settled and were buried was also called Kiriath Arba.13 We are told that "Arba was the greatest man among the Anakim" (Joshua 14:15), and "the father of Anak" (Joshua 15:13; 21:11).14 Kirjath Arba was also called "Mamre" in Genesis 35:27. Mamre was an Amorite, who was an ally of Abram (Genesis 14:13). This man owned some trees by which Abram settled, and at some point, part of Hebron became synonymous with his name.
Joshua fought several battles with the Anakim and the Amorites. Eventually, he "cut off the Anakim from the mountains: from Hebron, from Debir, from Anab, from all the mountains of Judah, and from all the mountains of Israel; Joshua utterly destroyed them with their cities. None of the Anakim were left in the land of the children of Israel; they remained only in Gaza, in Gath, and in Ashdod" (Joshua 11:21–22). These actions set the stage for the famous account of Goliath in 1 Samuel.
Goliath
Of course, the most renowned giant was the mighty Philistine slain by David. Here is how he is described in Scripture.
And a champion went out from the camp of the Philistines, named Goliath, from Gath, whose height was six cubits and a span. He had a bronze helmet on his head, and he was armed with a coat of mail, and the weight of the coat was five thousand shekels of bronze. And he had bronze armor on his legs and a bronze javelin between his shoulders. Now the staff of his spear was like a weaver's beam, and his iron spearhead weighed six hundred shekels; and a shield-bearer went before him (1 Samuel 17:4–7).
Notice that Goliath was from Gath, which happened to be one of the three places where Anakim remained, according to Joshua 11:21–22. So although he is not called one in 1 Samuel 17, it is possible that Goliath was a descendant of the Anakim who mixed with the Philistine population in that area.15
There is some debate about Goliath's height due to the textual variants in ancient manuscripts. Most English translations follow the Masoretic text in listing his height at "six cubits and a span" (approximately 9'9"). However, the NET Bible puts Goliath at "close to seven feet tall." The reason for the discrepancy is that the Masoretic Text differs from some ancient texts, including the Septuagint and an ancient manuscript found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, labeled 4QSama, which list Goliath's height as four cubits and a span (approximately 6'9").
Many modern scholars believe there is stronger textual support for the shorter Goliath.16 But while he is not specifically called a giant in this passage, 2 Samuel 21:15–22 seems to identify Goliath as the "giant" (raphah) from Gath. There are other details provided that make the "six cubits and a span" the more likely figure. For example, the sheer weight of his armaments required that he must have been of enormous size and strength. His coat of mail weighed about 125 pounds and just the tip of his spear was 15 pounds. This does not even take into account his helmet, armor on his legs, javelin, or sword.17 Also, I personally find it hard to believe that every member of Israel's army would have been terrified of someone who was my height (6'9").18
There are many other details about the account of David and Goliath that are often overlooked. Most people assume David was a short young man when he fought against the giant, but the Bible is very clear that David was considered "a mighty man of valor, [and] a man of war" (1 Samuel 16:18) prior to fighting Goliath.
Other Giants in the Bible
The Bible mentions four more Philistine giants, who were relatives of Goliath from the region of Gath. 2 Samuel 21:15–22 provides a more detailed account of these giants than the record of 1 Chronicles 20:4–8, but the latter passage does provide some extra information that helps us make sense of the passage. The additional details from 1 Chronicles are provided in brackets.
When the Philistines were at war again with Israel, David and his servants with him went down and fought against the Philistines; and David grew faint. Then Ishbi-Benob, who was one of the sons of the giant, the weight of whose bronze spear was three hundred shekels, who was bearing a new sword, thought he could kill David. But Abishai the son of Zeruiah came to his aid, and struck the Philistine and killed him. Then the men of David swore to him, saying, "You shall go out no more with us to battle, lest you quench the lamp of Israel."
Now it happened afterward that there was again a battle with the Philistines at Gob [or "Gezer"].19 Then Sibbechai the Hushathite killed Saph [or "Sippai"], who was one of the sons of the giant. Again there was war at Gob with the Philistines, where Elhanan the son of Jaare-Oregim [or "Jair"] the Bethlehemite killed ["Lahmi"] the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver's beam.
Yet again there was war at Gath, where there was a man of great stature, who had six fingers on each hand and six toes on each foot, twenty-four in number; and he also was born to the giant. So when he defied Israel, Jonathan the son of Shimea, David's brother, killed him.
These four were born to the giant in Gath, and fell by the hand of David and by the hand of his servants (2 Samuel 21:15–22).
David's mighty men killed giants named Ishbi-Benob, Saph (Sippai), and Lahmi, as well as an unnamed giant with six fingers on each hand and six toes on each foot.20 Each of these men could have descended from the remnant of Anakim that survived in the region of Gath, Gaza, and Ashdod (Joshua 11:22).
An Egyptian Giant?
One of David's mighty men, Benaiah the son of Jehoiada, defeated a large Egyptian man:
And he killed an Egyptian, a man of great height, five cubits tall. In the Egyptian's hand there was a spear like a weaver's beam; and he went down to him with a staff, wrested the spear out of the Egyptian's hand, and killed him with his own spear (1 Chronicles 11:23, italics in original).
Although he is often considered a giant, the Bible does not specifically identify this man as one, nor does it place this account with the exploits of David's other men who slayed giants, but it does provide his height as being "five cubits" (approximately 7' 6"). The KJV, NKJV, NASB, ESV, and others insert the word "great" before "height" or "stature," but "great" does not appear in the Hebrew. This may have been done for stylistic and readability purposes or because his height is provided later in the verse. Young's Literal Translation renders this verse in an almost perfect word-for-word match of the Hebrew: "And he hath smitten the man, the Egyptian—a man of measure, five by the cubit—and in the hand of the Egyptian is a spear like a beam of weavers" (1 Chronicles 11:23, italics in original).
In the parallel account given in 2 Samuel 23:21 the Egyptian is called "a spectacular man" in the NKJV and "an impressive man" in the NASB. While modern man may think of a 7'6" man as a giant, it is intriguing that the Bible does not identify him as such. Perhaps this is a clue that those who are identified as giants were larger than the Egyptian slain by Benaiah. Another explanation for this omission is that many of the giants were called by their particular tribes (Anakim, Emim, etc.), but the tall Egyptian is not said to belong to any of these giant groups. If that is the case, it is curious why the biblical writers would not simply use a generic term for "giant," such as rapha.
Following these accounts in 2 Samuel and 1 Chronicles, the giants fade from the pages of Scripture (other than the retrospective mention of the Amorites as giants in Amos 2:9).
Extra-biblical References to Giants
Scores of giant skeletons have been allegedly unearthed in the past couple of centuries. These claims were especially popular in the nineteenth century. So far, no concrete evidence of these claims has been brought forth. Although some claim the evidence was ignored, destroyed, or hidden by places like the Smithsonian, it seems more likely that the vast majority of these reports were hoaxes created for various reasons.
So far, no concrete evidence of these claims has been brought forth.
Several websites display pictures of people standing next to or holding a giant human femur, but these bones are sculptures, allegedly replicas of a real bone found in Turkey or Greece. Once again, there are fantastic claims, but little or no hard evidence to support them.
As far as I know, no one has discovered fossil evidence of giant humans. But then again, human fossils are quite rare altogether, since humans are more capable of avoiding rapid burial in sediment and other conditions that could lead to fossilization of their remains. What is indeed significant is that many giant versions of other creatures existed in the past or still exist today. To name just a few, these include the following:
spiders (e.g., the bird-eating spider, up to 12-inch leg span)
moths (e.g., the Atlas moth, with a wing span of 11 inches)
centipedes (up to 13 inches long)
snails (e.g., the African giant snail, up to 15½ inches long)
frogs (e.g. Beelzebufo, 16 inches high)
dragonflies (e.g., Meganeura, with a wing span of more than 2½ feet)
rats (e.g., Josephoartigasia, with a conservatively estimated body mass of 750 pounds)
beavers (e.g., Trogontherium, about 7½ feet long)
scorpions (e.g., the sea scorpion Jaekelopterus, estimated at more than 8 feet long)
crabs (e.g., the giant spider crab, with a claw span more than 12 feet)
armadillos (e.g., Glyptodon, up to 13 feet long)
turtles (e.g., Archelon, up to 16 feet long)
fish (e.g., Xiphactinus, 19 feet long)
sloths (e.g., Megatherium, which stood about 20 feet)
worms (e.g., the giant earthworm, up to 22 feet long)
sea cows (e.g., Hydrodamalis, 25 feet or more in length)
crocodiles (e.g., Sarcosuchus, up to 40 feet long)
snakes (e.g., Titanoboa, over 42 feet long)
crustaceans (e.g., supergiant amphipods 10 times larger than those previously discovered)
squid (e.g., Mesonychoteuthis, 50 feet or more in length)
sharks (e.g., Rhincodon, up to 65 feet long)
octopuses with 100 foot long tentacles.21
The fact that scientists have discovered animals with body sizes far greater than those observed today suggests, at least in theory, the possibility of there having also been giant humans in the past, as recorded in the Bible.
Many modern scholars scoff at the idea that there could have been giant warriors in excess of seven and a half feet tall. Consequently, the biblical dimensions of these people have often been downplayed or ignored. However, the biblical data about these people can be trusted because it is in the Word of God. Furthermore, other ancient sources describe giants, and the Anakim are even mentioned as dwelling in the land of Canaan.
Egypt
During the twelfth dynasty of ancient Egypt, traditionally dated from the twentieth to nineteenth centuries B.C.,22 the Egyptians practiced something akin to the modern use of voodoo dolls. A potter would make a clay figurine of an enemy they feared. The figurine had its arms behind its back and the name of the group or its leaders would be written upon it. Sometimes a bowl or block of clay was used for listing the enemies. The figurine or bowl was then smashed in a symbolic way of cursing the enemies so that they could be defeated.
Archaeologists have reconstructed many of these Execration texts (also called Proscription Lists), and some very interesting details have been found concerning the Anakim. This is an example of a text which mentions them:
The Ruler of Iy'anaq, Erum, and all the retainers who are with him; the Ruler of Iy'anaq, Abi-yamimu and all the retainers who are with him; the Ruler of Iy'anaq 'Akirum and the retainers who are with him (emphasis added).23
It should be noted that anaq (i.e., with a q in place of the k) is a common transliteration of the Hebrew word for Anak, עְַנָק (Numbers 13:33).
Another Execration text places the Anakim in the land of Canaan and even mentions the city of Jerusalem.24 The ancient Egyptians also called the inhabitants of the land of Canaan "Shasu." A later text entitled The Craft of the Scribe (c. 1250 BC), which was used to train Egyptian scribes, discusses a Canaanite mountain pass during a past battle.
The face of the pass is dangerous with Shasu, hidden under the bushes. Some of them are 4 or 5 cubits, nose to foot, with wild faces.25
Egyptian cubits were longer than the Hebrew common cubit. At 20.65 inches per Egyptian cubit, the Shasu mentioned in this letter would have measured between 6'10" and 8'7." This description shows that the traditional measurement of Goliath is not as outlandish as many critics believe.
Other Ancient Reports
Nearly every place around the world has legends of giants dwelling in the land. Certainly, one must exercise caution when reading these stories on the Internet since so much of the information online is contrary to the Word of God. For example, a few years ago, pictures of giant skeletons started to appear on websites, but they were clearly doctored (apparently part of a graphic design contest).
Greek and Roman mythology mentions the Titans, Kyklopes (Cyclops), and several other giants.26 Norse mythology contains stories of the Frost giants of Jötunheim. But these records are not limited to European mythologies or only to the ancient past. African and Asian peoples also have legends of giants, as do Native Americans.
For example, in his autobiography, "Buffalo" Bill Cody wrote the following words about a legend recounted to him by members of the Sioux tribe.
It was taught by the wise men of this tribe that the earth was originally peopled by giants, who were fully three times the size of modern men. They were so swift and powerful that they could run alongside a buffalo, take the animal under one arm, and tear off a leg, and eat it as they ran. So vainglorious were they because of their own size and strength that they denied the existence of a Creator. When it lighted, they proclaimed their superiority to the lightning; when it thundered, they laughed.
This displeased the Great Spirit, and to rebuke their arrogance he sent a great rain upon the earth. The valleys filled with water, and the giants retreated to the hills. The water crept up the hills, and the giants sought safety on the highest mountains. Still the rain continued, the waters rose, and the giants, having no other refuge, were drowned.27
Undoubtedly, many of these stories contain exaggerations of the giants' prodigious height and strength. But is it reasonable to automatically reject every one of these traditions, or, like tales of dragons, is there possibly some truth behind the legends, as is often the case? It is interesting that much of giant lore includes descriptions of a flood sent by God (or the gods) to destroy these wicked people. Could it be that while the Bible contains the true history of our past, these groups are simply repeating their own distorted versions of world history prior to and perhaps after the dispersion at Babel?28
Modern Giants
So were all of these giants just people who developed gigantism? Although gigantism may account for some of the ancient giants, this proposed solution falls short of explaining many of the biblical accounts.
Modern gigantism is often caused by abnormalities that lead to excessive production of growth hormone.29 It is highly unlikely that Goliath, the nephilim, Anakim, or most of the other Old Testament giants suffered from such a condition since they were often described as warriors or "mighty men," while modern "giants" are usually awkward, uncoordinated, and endure several physical ailments. There have been some rare cases where the person could accurately be described as a "mighty man."30
Furthermore, modern gigantism is not hereditary, whereas the Bible often describes giants as being the offspring of other giants (e.g., Deuteronomy 9:2; 1 Chronicles 20:6). So the groups known as giants were not simply made up of individuals with the modern form of gigantism.
Giants In The Bible: How Tall Were They?
So just how tall were the various groups of giants in the Bible? Given the discrepancy in the ancient texts about Goliath's height, it is difficult to base our estimate on his dimensions. The Egyptian killed by Benaiah was at least 7'6" (perhaps taller if the common cubit was not being used), but he is not called a giant. The Egyptian document, The Craft of the Scribe, placed the Shasu (Anakim?) between 6'10" and 8'7". They had to be large enough for the Israelites to claim that they looked like grasshoppers in the sight of the giants and for God to compare the height of the Amorites to cedars.
There are two main lines of thought on this subject. One idea looks at the modern understanding of human growth. Our stature is primarily affected by our DNA with some influence from environmental factors, but we seem to be limited by the "square-cube" law.31 For example, let's use my dimensions to see what would happen if I was scaled up to twice my height. This will give us a good example since I am 6'9", and some have argued that King Og of Bashan was as tall as his bed was long (13'6"), which is exactly twice my height. So if we were to double my height, then we would also need to increase my width and depth proportionally to compensate.
This means that, along with my height, both my width and depth would double, so we would need to multiply my weight (about 250 pounds) by a factor of eight. So a person of my proportions at 13'6" would weigh 2000 pounds! Not only is it difficult for us to imagine a person so large, but also when considering the compressive strength of bone,32 we would conclude that Og's skeletal system would be under tremendous stress, and he would be much more likely to suffer broken bones than a normal-sized person, not to mention the dangerous stress placed on his body's other systems.33
meganeuraThe second view is based on three points mentioned above. First, would a 5'6" individual really feel like a "grasshopper" compared to someone who is 7–8 feet tall? Admittedly, this is somewhat subjective, but the contrast seems to require a taller giant. Next, as pointed out in the second footnote, there is a strong comparison of the height and strength of the Amorites to the cedar and oak trees in Amos 2:9. Third, the evidence of other creatures in the fossil record that are far greater than twice the size of their modern counterparts provides support to the idea that the limits imposed by the square-cube law may not be as strict as we imagine them to be. For example, the meganeura is an extinct dragonfly, whose wingspan was greater than 30 inches. The Wikipedia entry (Wikimedia Commons image, right) on this creature states the following:
Controversy has prevailed as to how insects of the Carboniferous period were able to grow so large. The way oxygen is diffused through the insect's body via its tracheal breathing system puts an upper limit on body size, which prehistoric insects seem to have well exceeded.34
While I don't believe in "prehistoric" creatures (since man has been on earth since Day Six, and God has revealed what happened during the first five days in a historical account), the meganeura shows that the size limits of living organisms may be greater than expected. Those holding the second view do not have a problem with the biblical giants exceeding nine feet in height.
Furthermore, it should be pointed out that the square-cube law is accurate when applied to building materials, but it doesn't seem to perfectly relate to biological organisms, although it probably provides some "ballpark" limits. For example, the average house cat is about 30 inches long (head to tail), 9–10 inches tall, and weighs about 11 pounds, while tigers reach 12 feet in length (head to tail), 3 feet in height, and weighs about 500 pounds.35 If we were going to estimate the weight of a 10-foot long, 3-foot tall cat using the square-cube law, based on the dimensions of the average house cat, then the numbers would not match what we see in reality. According to this rule, when we quadruple the length (2.5 feet to 10 feet), then we would need to multiply the weight by 64 (4 x 4 x 4), which means we would expect the weight to be approximately 700 pounds. This is significantly higher than the weight of a tiger of this size.36
This example shows that tigers and house cats do not share the exact same proportions, but this is exactly the point. Both animals belong to the created cat "kind," and the much larger varieties (lions, tigers, etc.) are not perfectly "scaled up" compared to the smaller varieties. If this were the case with giant humans, then perhaps a 13'6" Og isn't out of the realm of possibility, but the notion that some biblical giants were 20–30 feet tall or greater is probably a "stretch."
Conclusion
So which view is accurate? I honestly do not know, but the square-cube law seems to provide some upper limits, so it is unlikely that they reached 20–30 feet or more. However, I do know the Bible clearly teaches that giants existed in the past. Many of them lived in and around the land of Canaan, and Joshua was involved in several battles with them. David and his mighty men killed some Philistine giants. The Egyptians knew about the Anakim and feared them. Finally, cultures from around the world have legends that are often remarkably similar to biblical accounts, including the existence of giants.
The accounts of giants in the Bible are more than just "tall" tales. These enormous people truly existed, and no amount of scoffing or rationalizing by skeptics will change that fact.[/b][/color]
[/size]
The size of a human (or anything strutured like a human) is limited by one fact:
The strength of a bone increases as the square of its length, but the mass increases by the cube of its length.
If there were 12 foot tall anthropoid beings with the abilities of normal humans, they would look as different from us as an elephant differs from a horse. None of the claimed skeletons come close to that.
: The Barbarian Sat Mar 26, 2022 - 21:30:47
The size of a human (or anything strutured like a human) is limited by one fact:
The strength of a bone increases as the square of its length, but the mass increases by the cube of its length.
If there were 12 foot tall anthropoid beings with the abilities of normal humans, they would look as different from us as an elephant differs from a horse. None of the claimed skeletons come close to that.
Says Barbarian, the self proclaimed god as it were of science, whom we all learn from whenever he speaks. Gee, what about all the giant animals of the past they have found, which look very well close enough to their present much smaller descendants, to be identified as one of them? How does that fit into your above scenario?
https://www.livescience.com/62047-photos-ancient-giant-animals.html
Article at above link includes giant sharks, Ground sloth, Giant cheetah, Short-faced bear, Giant otter, Enormous penguin, Giant kangaroo, Giant dragonfly, Huge ape, and Spike-tooth salmon. If they can look relatively the same, why couldn't we? The above list is most certainly not exhaustive, as I myself have posted many such articles about other animals as well on these boards.
: Rella Thu Mar 24, 2022 - 08:29:06
https://answersingenesis.org/bible-characters/giants-in-the-bible/
Anything from answersingenesis.org can pretty much be dismissed out of hand. What's the opposite of credibility? That's what they got.
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Tue Mar 29, 2022 - 15:54:28
Anything from answersingenesis.org can pretty much be dismissed out of hand. What's the opposite of credibility? That's what they got.
Then try this one on for size.
It is in a museum.
Huge 36-Million-Year-Old Skull Of Fearsome Marine Monster Discovered In Peru
https://www.ancientpages.com/2022/03/21/huge-36-million-year-old-skull-of-fearsome-marine-monster-discovered-in-peru/
(https://i.ibb.co/Fqt6Vk0/marinemonsterperu.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XkTX8f3)
: Rella Tue Mar 29, 2022 - 19:22:59
Then try this one on for size.
It is in a museum.
Huge 36-Million-Year-Old Skull Of Fearsome Marine Monster Discovered In Peru
It's a skull from an ancient proto-whale. Kinda cool, but what does it have to do with the existence of human giants? ::shrug::
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Tue Mar 29, 2022 - 15:54:28
Anything from answersingenesis.org can pretty much be dismissed out of hand. What's the opposite of credibility? That's what they got.
At least you are somewhat consistent from the "scientific" side of things. Anyone who actually believes the testimony of scripture as it plainly states concerning creation, the flood, and giants has no credibility with you. This is your testimony, is it not?
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Therefore the above scripture is not true either, is it. How can it be? If people who believe what scripture itself simply states, cannot be considered credible, how can the above scripture be considered credible? How many other scriptures therefore must be considered faulty also, which back up said plain testimony? This is the slippery slope of human pride, which constantly seeks to conform God's word to their own ideas and speculations , rather than the other way around. None of these scriptures can mean just what they say, because fallen humanity has determined otherwise. Yet those who have determined otherwise cannot explain the scriptures according to what they believe, therefore the scriptures are either incorrect, or just remain in obscurity. This is the exact opposite testimony scripture provides in the above quoted verses. So be it.
Nevertheless, I ask again, and again, and again, and again, and again. Please do explain the scriptures in accordance with deep time evolution, no flood or one only localized, anode course no giants. What do all the scriptures which testify of these things really mean oh wise ones? Or are they simply fables and lies? Please do tell. Surely if you are so adamantly positive that these scriptures cannot mean what they simply state, you can also explain what they do mean, can't you? Is it not a strange thing, that these wise ones can figure out deep scenarios regarding the past to the tune of billions of years, but have no idea what some of the simplest statements of God's word really mean? Yes it is.
1Co 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect:
yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him?
even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
Those who claim Creationists cannot be considered part of their evolutionary naturalist "sciences" are somewhat correct. For such cannot discern the things of the spirit, which of course all scriptures are, they are foolishness to them. Are they not? Do they not speak of the creation account being literal, the flood, giants, and other miraculous events as though they are foolishness which is not to be believed as stated? Yes they do, right here on these boards. It should be no surprise that those of the faith of the "natural sciences" cannot discern the spiritual revelations of God's word, which can only be spiritually discerned and understood.
https://www.darwins-theory-of-evolution.com
Quotes below from link above, emphasis is mine.
Darwin's Theory Of Evolution
Darwin's Theory of Evolution is the widely held notion that all life is related and has descended from a common ancestor: the birds and the bananas, the fishes and the flowers -- all related. Darwin's general theory presumes the development of life from non-life and stresses a purely naturalistic (undirected) "descent with modification". That is, complex creatures evolve from more simplistic ancestors naturally over time. In a nutshell, as random genetic mutations occur within an organism's genetic code, the beneficial mutations are preserved because they aid survival -- a process known as "natural selection." These beneficial mutations are passed on to the next generation. Over time, beneficial mutations accumulate and the result is an entirely different organism (not just a variation of the original, but an entirely different creature).
Darwin's Theory of Evolution - Natural Selection
While Darwin's Theory of Evolution is a relatively young archetype, the evolutionary worldview itself is as old as antiquity. Ancient Greek philosophers such as Anaximander postulated the development of life from non-life and the evolutionary descent of man from animal. Charles Darwin simply brought something new to the old philosophy -- a plausible mechanism called "natural selection." Natural selection acts to preserve and accumulate minor advantageous genetic mutations. Suppose a member of a species developed a functional advantage (it grew wings and learned to fly). Its offspring would inherit that advantage and pass it on to their offspring. The inferior (disadvantaged) members of the same species would gradually die out, leaving only the superior (advantaged) members of the species. Natural selection is the preservation of a functional advantage that enables a species to compete better in the wild. Natural selection is the naturalistic equivalent to domestic breeding. Over the centuries, human breeders have produced dramatic changes in domestic animal populations by selecting individuals to breed. Breeders eliminate undesirable traits gradually over time. Similarly, natural selection eliminates inferior species gradually over time...............
Yes, natural, natural, natural. Not the things of the spirit, but the things of this natural world, according to imaginations and speculations of this natural world, as opposed to those of the Spirit of God and His WORD.
https://www.csueastbay.edu/philosophy/reflections/2004/contents/cindy-chen.html
CHARLES DARWIN: NATURALIST, REVOLUTIONARY, AND FATHER OF EVOLUTION
In studying the history of science, biology is often a matter of special examination. And in investigating the course of this field one major subject of concentration, aside from looking at the greatest contributions made into this area and the scientists that made them, is the history of evolutionary thought. To this matter one will almost always become familiar with Charles Darwin, perhaps the greatest of all contributors. As a naturalist, Darwin was not only responsible for the theory of evolution as we know it today, but also the foundation that biological sciences are based on. His theory of natural selection as a mechanism for change over time in all species of life brought him a lifetime of praise and admiration, in addition to a great deal of criticism. Darwin's theory was met with disapproval in two major areas, the scientific and the social. Most scientists during that era had grown comfortable with the reductionist approach of all events and models being fixed and deterministic, thus Darwin's theory was rejected because it seemed to rely only on chance events and not on pure physical laws. Hence, regardless of whether the characteristics were being favored or not, no one believed that certain "preferred" traits would have a higher possibility of being selected to be inherited more frequently than other "unfavorable" ones. Darwin was also given much criticism in the social realm. Having been opposed to the theory of special creation or creation by design, which was widely accepted during 19th century Britain, Darwin's thoughts were seen as anti-religious and the cause of great debates. In all, to comprehend the complete work of Darwin it is essential to know not only his scientific achievements, but social influences as well........................
Darwin and evolutionists are of the naturalist faith, the natural man, of natural humanity. God's own are of the spiritual faith, and strive to be of spiritual humanity.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly
My granddad summed up Darwin's theory of evolution this way:
Men sprung from monkeys and most of them forgot to spring.
: Amo Wed Mar 30, 2022 - 09:05:15
At least you are somewhat consistent from the "scientific" side of things. Anyone who actually believes the testimony of scripture as it plainly states concerning creation, the flood, and giants has no credibility with you. This is your testimony, is it not?
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
This is as much of your post as I read. I skimmed a little, and it seems you're still fighting those strawmen.
Once again, I don't care about evolution. I haven't supported it (or any other scientific theory) once in this thread. My opinion of Darwin is very low, though that's actually because of his racism.
I only care what Scripture says. It says God forms things slowly over time, subduing chaos and bringing order bit by bit. It doesn't say God is a genie who poofs things into existence.
Old Earth does not equal evolution.
Jarrod
Old earth is the explanation attempt of the inexplicable when juggling the Bible. A long enough time, who knows what could happen, type thing. I don't read the Bible as confirmation of God forming things slowly over time. Anymore than I read the Bible to say that God dried up the Red Sea over eons of time so the Israelites could cross the uncrossable. Chaos to Shalom, absolutely! Over and over again, kind of in more abrupt means than all that gradually.
I have no issue with giant humans. Especially as to scriptures. Without scriptures, it would be mere speculation at best. Kinda like the virgin birth. Without scriptures, it would be ascribed as a myth by non-scripture believers, as we all have heard about or experienced with others.
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Tue Mar 29, 2022 - 20:33:49
It's a skull from an ancient proto-whale. Kinda cool, but what does it have to do with the existence of human giants? ::shrug::
Nothing, but is certain that if there were any remains from a giant human it is always a scam or con. And was amusing to me that this popped up as this subject is again making its rounds.
The bible talks of giants, and then that idea is ALWAYS knocked down to them just being a little large compared to man as we know him..... Guiness records has The tallest man in medical history for whom there is irrefutable evidence is Robert Pershing Wadlow (USA) (born 6:30 a.m. at Alton, Illinois, USA on 22 February 1918), who when last measured on 27 June 1940, was found to be 2.72 m (8 ft 11.1 in) tall.
But just to churn things up a bit....
There were at one time.... either very old or recently old.... very large animals.
Every once in a while someone will stumble across a skeleton of such and sometimes one will be displayed... ( or parts there of with a mock up of what it would have looked like.)
Those are facts that cannot be denied... only the timing in history of such depending on ones beliefs.
Leaving Adam out of the mix... (I know you will say we cant, but humor me.... for he had to mind the store in the garden of Eden... until he got kicked out) when Genesis starts out saying
Gen 1: 26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 3:28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Would this encompass the "dinosaurs" or not? Or are you of the opinion that man who was to have dominion over all things on earth was made after the dinosaur age, and therefore after they had died out?
Paul Wight is the Giant
: Rella Wed Mar 30, 2022 - 17:11:42
Nothing, but is certain that if there were any remains from a giant human it is always a scam or con. And was amusing to me that this popped up as this subject is again making its rounds.
The bible talks of giants, and then that idea is ALWAYS knocked down to them just being a little large compared to man as we know him..... Guiness records has The tallest man in medical history for whom there is irrefutable evidence is Robert Pershing Wadlow (USA) (born 6:30 a.m. at Alton, Illinois, USA on 22 February 1918), who when last measured on 27 June 1940, was found to be 2.72 m (8 ft 11.1 in) tall.
But just to churn things up a bit....
There were at one time.... either very old or recently old.... very large animals.
Every once in a while someone will stumble across a skeleton of such and sometimes one will be displayed... ( or parts there of with a mock up of what it would have looked like.)
Yeah, the classical Greek cities had museums. They displayed fossils, with "dragons" (fossil giraffe head and neck),
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F4%2F4e%2FSivatherium_giganteum_skull.JPG%2F794px-Sivatherium_giganteum_skull.JPG&f=1&nofb=1)
cyclops giants (fossil elephant skulls) and so on.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/5c/11/73/5c117319dd1b228b9c025a69fac56418.jpg)
: Jaime Wed Mar 30, 2022 - 15:19:17
Old earth is the explanation attempt of the inexplicable when juggling the Bible.
Old earth isn't an attempt at anything. It's just believing your eyes, and the Bible.
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Thu Mar 31, 2022 - 11:26:15
Old earth isn't an attempt at anything. It's just believing your eyes, and the Bible.
I am open to old earth, not open to people evolving from monkeys. That's just idiotic.
Jarrod, Old earth is coming up with things that are described otherwise differently in the Bible. I accept the virgin birth even though it goes against EVERYTHING the natural world tells me about birth and procreation. I have no issue with God speaking the present earth into existence in a relative instant. No need to wonder how it would have come about on it's on without God. And those two notions don't have to jibe. I accept the miraculous parting of the Red Sea. I have no need to wonder if a distant volcano in the Mediterranean caused a tsunami and momentarily sucked the water out of the Red Sea. God just did it pretty much as was described with the walls of water standing up on both sides. Scientifically irrational, but what else is new with the God of the Bible?
I too am open to Old Earth, but it has no more logical appeal to me as a scientist/engineer than young earth brought about by God to me as a believer. It doesn't take shutting off the brain to be a believer in the Bible.
: Texas Conservative Thu Mar 31, 2022 - 11:30:13
I am open to old earth, not open to people evolving from monkeys. That's just idiotic.
No kidding; monkeys are far too evolved in their own way to have ever given rise to humans. Humans are phylogentically apes, not monkeys.
: Jaime Thu Mar 31, 2022 - 12:04:37
I too am open to Old Earth, but it has no more logical appeal to me as a scientist/engineer than young earth brought about by God to me as a believer. It doesn't take shutting off the brain to be a believer in the Bible.
The important thing is old Earth or young Earth has no significance for God's word. YE creationists are no less Christians than any other of us. Nor are old Earth creationists. Sometimes both sides forget this, and we need to be reminded from time to time.
I do think being dogmaticly an old earther in order to be accepted by academia is a little sketchy for a Christian. Not sure, but still ::pondering::
I notice that Stephen Gould perhaps the most well-known "evolutionist" because of his popular essays on the subject, willingly took on a YE creationist as a doctoral candidate. As Gould remarked, all that really counts is ability.
: The Barbarian Thu Mar 31, 2022 - 19:01:43
No kidding; monkeys are far too evolved in their own way to have ever given rise to humans. Humans are phylogentically apes, not monkeys.
Didn't evolve from Apes either. That's just retardation even if it is what is taught nowadays.
: Jaime Thu Mar 31, 2022 - 12:04:37
Jarrod, Old earth is coming up with things that are described otherwise differently in the Bible.
Do you have any examples of this other than Genesis 1? Genesis 1 can be (SHOULD BE) read to support an old earth. On the other hand, I can think of plenty of times where the Bible makes reference to an eternity past (e.g. "from everlasting to everlasting")
I see old earth as the default position. In the absence of a pastor/priest telling people otherwise, everyone adopts the position that the earth is ancient. ::shrug::
: Jaime Thu Mar 31, 2022 - 12:04:37
I have no issue with God speaking the present earth into existence in a relative instant. No need to wonder how it would have come about on it's on without God.
With God, this is possible.
However, the earth being created fully formed is NOT what is recorded. The Bible says that when God created everything, it was first
unformed (Gen 1:2). Then He formed everything later over a period of time; not all at once. We can argue whether that period was seven 24-hour days or seven ages of the earth or billions of years. But the Bible explicitly contradicts the idea that everything was brought into being fully formed, so the "doctrine of apparent age" ought to be thrown out on that basis.
: Jaime Thu Mar 31, 2022 - 12:04:37
And those two notions don't have to jibe. I accept the miraculous parting of the Red Sea. I have no need to wonder if a distant volcano in the Mediterranean caused a tsunami and momentarily sucked the water out of the Red Sea. God just did it pretty much as was described with the walls of water standing up on both sides. Scientifically irrational, but what else is new with the God of the Bible?
My concerns aren't scientific either. I'm interested in the interpretation of Scripture, and also in how archaeology and history fit the Biblical record. So for me, I'm not too interested in HOW the Red Sea was parted. But I am interested in WHERE it was parted, because that would help make sense of part of the Biblical text that has been mysterious for a long time.
I do have a problem with people calling themselves scientists when their intent is to oppose science, though. They would be better served to confess as you have, that they believe these things happened and the explanation of HOW is just not that important.
: Jaime Thu Mar 31, 2022 - 12:04:37
I too am open to Old Earth, but it has no more logical appeal to me as a scientist/engineer than young earth brought about by God to me as a believer. It doesn't take shutting off the brain to be a believer in the Bible.
On the contrary, it requires extra effort to understand the Bible. Or I guess one could just take the pastor's word for every single thing and warm that pew comfortably.
Jarrod
I would say Genesis 1 fully is congruant with YE. It could be wrangled to mean pretty much anything else if one had a mind to do so. If the scripture left out the mention of a time period, literal or figurative then of course old earth would be just as palatable.
: Jaime Fri Apr 01, 2022 - 11:13:23
If the scripture left out the mention of a time period, literal or figurative then of course old earth would be just as palatable.
No, no, no. The opposite is true. The mention of a time period means that there was, well... a time period. A time period is the opposite of an instantaneous moment. If creation were instantaneous, the chapter would read like this:
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. The end.
: Jaime Fri Apr 01, 2022 - 11:13:23
I would say Genesis 1 fully is congruant with YE. It could be wrangled to mean pretty much anything else if one had a mind to do so. If the scripture left out the mention of a time period, literal or figurative then of course old earth would be just as palatable.
Jaime:
Take a walk into Gen 2 for a minute.
Look at verse 4 KJV (sigh) 4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,
Surely you must agree that generations... no matter how they are used for this description is longer then 1 - 24 hour day?
Verse 4 NASB95 4This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven
Even the wording in this simple verse talks of the heavens and the earth "when they were created".
In the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven.
There is nothing here that suggests that was part of the YE creation. I submit the YE end of things is regarding Adam and forward..... and not until.
Two translations that seem to point to a possible OE creation
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Fri Apr 01, 2022 - 11:25:58
No, no, no. The opposite is true. The mention of a time period means that there was, well... a time period. A time period is the opposite of an instantaneous moment. If creation were instantaneous, the chapter would read like this:
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. The end.
God would have no problem speaking into existence exactly what was written in each day as a 24 hour day. We would ONLY logically presume a day doesn't mean 24 hours because without God it would take eons and epochs.
Rella, Genesis 2 is not the next 7 days. Chapter 2 is a retelling with way more detail and time about Adam and Eve BEYOND them being brought about on the earth. All the stuff of Adam and Eve's decedents definitely did not happen in a 24 hour day, Yet God could very well have done the things in the first 6 days in 6 literal 24 hour days AND THEN the story of detail could have transpired in Chapter 2 narrative for their lives following. He also could have taken 24 million years, but I don't believe it was relayed to Moses the way it was for it to have been that way. With God in the mix, we aren't constrained to only what science would dictate. I don't in any way believe the Bible is a complete minute by minute or even day by day or even year by year account of human history. For instance the Nephilim is only addressed in a few obscure places. That of course is kinda the subject of this thread thread (Giants), but we are left with very sparse details of an exceedingly interesting subject.
: Jaime Fri Apr 01, 2022 - 11:39:07
Rella, Genesis 2 is not the next 7 days. Chapter 2 is a retelling with way more detail and time about Adam and Eve BEYOND them being brought about on the earth. All the stuff of Adam and Eve's decedents definitely did not happen in a 24 hour day, Yet God could very well have done the things in the first 6 days in 6 literal 24 hour days AND THEN the story of detail could have transpired in Chapter 2 narrative for their lives following.
Rella had it right. Genesis was originally arranged into segments with headings "these are the generations" and the first segment is 1:1 - 2:4. The first 4 verses of chapter 2 belong with Genesis 1. Whoever added chapter/verse divisions got it wrong on this one.
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Wed Mar 30, 2022 - 13:46:53
This is as much of your post as I read. I skimmed a little, and it seems you're still fighting those strawmen.
Once again, I don't care about evolution. I haven't supported it (or any other scientific theory) once in this thread. My opinion of Darwin is very low, though that's actually because of his racism.
I only care what Scripture says. It says God forms things slowly over time, subduing chaos and bringing order bit by bit. It doesn't say God is a genie who poofs things into existence.
Old Earth does not equal evolution.
Jarrod
Fair enough. You believe in some other form of bringing things about slowly over time, than evolution. Please do show us from the scriptures, where they state that God formed things slowly over time, bit by bit. Surely if it is as you say, such is clearly expressed in scripture somewhere. Where? Thank you.
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Thu Mar 31, 2022 - 11:26:15
Old earth isn't an attempt at anything. It's just believing your eyes, and the Bible.
What do you see with your eyes that spells old earth? What Bible verses tell us of old earth?
: Jaime Fri Apr 01, 2022 - 11:29:34
God would have no problem speaking into existence exactly what was written in each day as a 24 hour day.
God would have no problem with anything. But my concern is not for what God can do (literally anything), but rather for what does the Bible SAY happened.
: Jaime Fri Apr 01, 2022 - 11:29:34
We would ONLY logically presume a day doesn't mean 24 hours because without God it would take eons and epochs.
If I were a casual reader, I would assume a day doesn't mean 24 hours because the sun and moon don't exist yet. ::lookaround::
I am not a casual reader, though. I've studied Gen 1 in depth. Read it in Hebrew and Greek. Cross-referenced every other place in the Bible where it is quoted and even alluded to. Done comparative religion studies on it. Read a bunch of textual criticism. Sussed out exactly what theological points are being made there. To believe in seven literal 24-hour days takes an extraordinary effort of sticking one's head in the sand. ALL of the studies I've done point the other way. All of them.
One of the 3 theological points made in Gen 1 is that God forms His creation over time... the nature of God as Father is to subdue chaos slowly, bringing order by defining boundaries. This is the nature of God's relationship with man. He is our Father in the sense that He molds us over time. It's the whole Potter and clay thing.
The literalist take on the chapter is actually in direct contradiction to that point being made by the author. For me, that is the clincher. When your interpretation subverts the message and intent of the original author, you're just wrong.
Jarrod
: The Barbarian Thu Mar 31, 2022 - 19:04:30
The important thing is old Earth or young Earth has no significance for God's word. YE creationists are no less Christians than any other of us. Nor are old Earth creationists. Sometimes both sides forget this, and we need to be reminded from time to time.
This is true. There are professing "Christians" today, who know very little of what the Bible teaches, let alone agree with or ty to live according to it. The title of Christian no longer necessarily holds the meaning of Bible believing. Most "Christians" simply choose which part of scripture they prefer, and ignore the rest today. The scriptures themselves predicted this scenario.
2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
: The Barbarian Thu Mar 31, 2022 - 19:49:32
I notice that Stephen Gould perhaps the most well-known "evolutionist" because of his popular essays on the subject, willingly took on a YE creationist as a doctoral candidate. As Gould remarked, all that really counts is ability.
That is regarding the discipline of science, not salvation or biblical truth.
: Rella Fri Apr 01, 2022 - 11:26:22
Jaime:
Take a walk into Gen 2 for a minute.
Look at verse 4 KJV (sigh) 4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,
Surely you must agree that generations... no matter how they are used for this description is longer then 1 - 24 hour day?
Verse 4 NASB95 4This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven
Even the wording in this simple verse talks of the heavens and the earth "when they were created".
In the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven.
There is nothing here that suggests that was part of the YE creation. I submit the YE end of things is regarding Adam and forward..... and not until.
Two translations that seem to point to a possible OE creation
To the contrary, each epoch of the creation account whether it were a day or millions of years would be a generation, concerning that which was created. It wasn't, and then it was. The generation was the time which transpired between when it was not, and when it was. We understand that bacteria and even some insects that have very short life spans, some even only minutes, still represent a passing generation when they are gone. So it is with creation as well. When something that wasn't, is made into something the is, that is the generation of its creation. Regardless of how long you think it took. That is the meaning, not a certain amount of time, or not.
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Fri Apr 01, 2022 - 13:12:37
Rella had it right. Genesis was originally arranged into segments with headings "these are the generations" and the first segment is 1:1 - 2:4. The first 4 verses of chapter 2 belong with Genesis 1. Whoever added chapter/verse divisions got it wrong on this one.
Negative, that is an example of repetition and enlargement found in very many places throughout scripture.
WS, I would assume when the bible says day, whether the sun existed or not, it would have been a comparative amount of time to God and his Spirit retelling the events. The notion of Days, Months and Years was set up by God in the One Story that is the Bible. I don't think he would have seen the advantage of unnecessary confusion to man. The 7 day cycle began, and was important to God and his interaction with people with the Sabbath, and the 7 year land Sabbaths, the 50 year Jubilees, the Lunar cycles and the Solar cycles and the growing seasons and how all that interplays with his sacred feast days and appointed times. The idea of interjecting a 24 hour day at the Beginning would not have been all that unusual in the scheme of things it seems to me.
I have no problem whatsoever with a multiple Billion year pre-primordial chaotic watery formless whatever prior to God speaking order into existence on the first day. Nothing would impel me to go down a linguistic trail of maybe each "day" in creation is a billion years. As an aside, I don't believe the Bible necessarily supports a 6000-year-old earth. And I equally have doubts about it being as old as Old Earthers suggest. I am in the camp of I don't know, and we don't have enough information to challenge what a miraculous God could do and more or less indicated in the story relayed by Moses to us. To my pea brain, the Red Sea parting is a mini-microcosm of the God's power at creation. Totally against the scientific model, and I'm more than OK with that. Nothing really rings my alarm bell about the miracles of the Bible, like well there has to be a logical natural phenomenon explanation. No, not for me.
If there was a Big Bang, God did it. That in itself is beyond the realm of science. Something banged, but where did the something come from. Or if nothing banged, an all powerful God would have been behind bringing the entire universe out of nothing with a word.
: Amo Fri Apr 01, 2022 - 13:47:10
Negative, that is an example of repetition and enlargement found in very many places throughout scripture.
Yes, you said it much better than I did. ::geek::
: Amo Fri Apr 01, 2022 - 13:30:15
What do you see with your eyes that spells old earth?
Almost everything terrestrial that occurs naturally. I suppose you want an example, so...
(https://www.undercanvas.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Grand-Canyon-scaled.jpg)
I've got a reasonably good idea of how dirt and rocks form. I've got some idea of erosion, too. Don't link me a pseudoscience article - I won't read it.
: Amo Fri Apr 01, 2022 - 13:30:15What Bible verses tell us of old earth?
Genesis 1, but you're willfully blind there, so...
In Psalm 90 and a litany of other places the Bible refers to eternity past ('from everlasting'). Psalms 18.
Job 9. Job 40-41 on God's creation of behemoth and leviathan. Really a recurring theme of the whole book of Job is the mysteriousness of God's powers of creations, and man's (Job's) inability to expound them. Job actually talks about the creation more than any other book of the Bible.
I found those in a couple seconds just searching. If I took my time I'm sure I'd find a lot more.
Jarrod
: Amo Fri Apr 01, 2022 - 13:47:10
Negative, that is an example of repetition and enlargement found in very many places throughout scripture.
You have no idea what I'm talking about, do you?
Genesis
IS arranged into sections with headers introducing them. It's demonstrable:
Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
Gen 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
Gen 6:9 These are the generations of Noah:
Gen 10:1 Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood.
Gen 11:10 These are the generations of Shem:
Gen 11:27 Now these are the generations of Terah:
Gen 25:12 Now these are the generations of Ishmael
Gen 25:19 And these are the generations of Isaac, Abraham's son:
Gen 36:1 Now these are the generations of Esau, who is Edom.
Gen 37:2 These are the generations of Jacob.
Maybe next time don't contradict someone when you don't even understand what they're saying.
Jarrod
: Jaime Fri Apr 01, 2022 - 13:55:16
I have no problem whatsoever with a multiple Billion year pre-primordial chaotic watery formless whatever prior to God speaking order into existence on the first day. Nothing would impel me to go down a linguistic trail of maybe each "day" in creation is a billion years. As an aside, I don't believe the Bible necessarily supports a 6000-year-old earth. And I equally have doubts about it being as old as Old Earthers suggest. I am in the camp of I don't know, and we don't have enough information to challenge what a miraculous God could do and more or less indicated in the story relayed by Moses to us. To my pea brain, the Red Sea parting is a mini-microcosm of the God's power at creation. Totally against the scientific model, and I'm more than OK with that. Nothing really rings my alarm bell about the miracles of the Bible, like well there has to be a logical natural phenomenon explanation. No, not for me.
If there was a Big Bang, God did it. That in itself is beyond the realm of science. Something banged, but where did the something come from. Or if nothing banged, an all powerful God would have been behind bringing the entire universe out of nothing with a word.
We're not really that far apart.
For my part, I don't have a problem with 'I don't know' or even 'it's unknowable.' My issue is with the people who say they do know, when they clearly do not, and with the harm they do to Scripture.
-Jarrod
Well, my perception is that Old Earthers are guilty of that as well.
: Jaime Fri Apr 01, 2022 - 13:55:16
If there was a Big Bang, God did it.
Yes, of course.
: JaimeThat in itself is beyond the realm of science.
The actual "bang" is beyond the realm of science as we know science today. But after the passage of the first Planck Time, it then becomes the realm of science as we know it today. A unit of Planck Time is 10
-43 seconds. That is a pretty short length of time.
If it happened in an instantaneous bang that would have been worthy to make THAT semi clear in scripture, rather than mostly ambiguous or blurry. God did speak things into existence just not seemingly all in one instant, but as reported in scripture.
No kidding; monkeys are far too evolved in their own way to have ever given rise to humans. Humans are phylogentically apes, not monkeys.
Didn't evolve from Apes either.
That question comes down to evidence. Let's see what an honest and knowledgeable YE creationist says:
Evidences for Darwin's second expectation — of stratomorphic intermediate species — include such species as Baragwanathia27 (between rhyniophytes and lycopods), Pikaia28 (between echinoderms
and chordates), Purgatorius29 (between the tree shrews and the primates), and Proconsul30 (between the non-hominoid primates and the hominoids).
...
Evidence for not just one but for all three of the species level and above types of stratomorphic intermediates expected by macroevolutionary theory is surely strong evidence for macroevolutionary theory. Creationists therefore need to accept this fact.
YE creationist Dr. Kurt Wise,
Toward a Creationist Understanding of Transitional Forms
I notice that Stephen Gould perhaps the most well-known "evolutionist" because of his popular essays on the subject, willingly took on a YE creationist as a doctoral candidate. As Gould remarked, all that really counts is ability.
: Amo Fri Apr 01, 2022 - 13:39:06
That is regarding the discipline of science, not salvation or biblical truth.
Just showing you that even a YE creationist was accepted as a doctoral candidate based on his ability, without regard for his religious beliefs.
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Fri Apr 01, 2022 - 14:02:17
Almost everything terrestrial that occurs naturally. I suppose you want an example, so...
(https://www.undercanvas.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Grand-Canyon-scaled.jpg)
I've got a reasonably good idea of how dirt and rocks form. I've got some idea of erosion, too. Don't link me a pseudoscience article - I won't read it.
Genesis 1, but you're willfully blind there, so...
In Psalm 90 and a litany of other places the Bible refers to eternity past ('from everlasting'). Psalms 18.
Job 9. Job 40-41 on God's creation of behemoth and leviathan. Really a recurring theme of the whole book of Job is the mysteriousness of God's powers of creations, and man's (Job's) inability to expound them. Job actually talks about the creation more than any other book of the Bible.
I found those in a couple seconds just searching. If I took my time I'm sure I'd find a lot more.
Jarrod
Yes, we can all see rocks. I don't see how that ability proves old earth though. To the contrary, we have excellent views of miles and miles of rock layers in many places going very deep into the earth. In the Grand Canyon especially, which is where your photo looks like it might be from. What we find there, many layers of rock which are stacked on top of each other very evenly. Showing apparently little to no signs of disconformity due to the erosion that would no doubt take place over the course of the millions of years deep timers suggest in their formation. Such even and undisturbed layers as it were, are highly suggestive of rapid formation, and problematic for deep time formation. So what is your idea of how these rock layers formed?
The fact that scripture talks an eternal past, has nothing to do with the age of this earth, unless the verses themsleves tie the two together. To the contrary, the scriptures do describe a beginning for this world, and even provide a genealogy going back to Adam and Eve created at that beginning. During that account of creation the terms day and evening and morning suggestive of the same, are used repeatedly. You claim that, that which is actually and literally written down should be interpreted as something else, and that which is not actually and literally written down should be interpreted as the reality according to your own deep time scenario belief. What you believe must be alluded to, according to your own understanding, it is not plainly stated in scripture. Nor have any interpreters of scripture that I know of, ever tried to convey in translation what you presume. Which seems to me to be a pretty good indication, that it simply isn't there enough to be considered in translation.
It does not appear to me, that you found very much at all, in just a couple of seconds. Save that which one with preconceived ideas already, would find rapidly while searching for such things, which the scriptures themselves do not simply state anywhere. Perhaps you could expound upon Job's observations a bit more, cornering their support of your views.
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Fri Apr 01, 2022 - 14:06:59
You have no idea what I'm talking about, do you?
Genesis IS arranged into sections with headers introducing them. It's demonstrable:
Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
Gen 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
Gen 6:9 These are the generations of Noah:
Gen 10:1 Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood.
Gen 11:10 These are the generations of Shem:
Gen 11:27 Now these are the generations of Terah:
Gen 25:12 Now these are the generations of Ishmael
Gen 25:19 And these are the generations of Isaac, Abraham's son:
Gen 36:1 Now these are the generations of Esau, who is Edom.
Gen 37:2 These are the generations of Jacob.
Maybe next time don't contradict someone when you don't even understand what they're saying.
Jarrod
My bad, I was addressing her thoughts regarding a day or not, not literary structure or arrangements. I assumed since you are an old earther, you were saying she was right about that as well.
: Rella Fri Apr 01, 2022 - 11:26:22
Jaime:
Take a walk into Gen 2 for a minute.
Look at verse 4 KJV (sigh) 4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,
Surely you must agree that generations... no matter how they are used for this description is longer then 1 - 24 hour day?
Verse 4 NASB95 4This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven
Even the wording in this simple verse talks of the heavens and the earth "when they were created".
In the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven.
There is nothing here that suggests that was part of the YE creation. I submit the YE end of things is regarding Adam and forward..... and not until.
Two translations that seem to point to a possible OE creation
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
What do you do about the problem of another day after the day of Adam's creation, included in the as you state it YE creation week, which the fourth commandment backs up?
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11
For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.The last sentence of the above commandment straight from God's mouth and hand, states that heaven, earth, the sea, and all that is in them, were finished on the sixth day. Then another day was established immediately following for rest and reflection upon no doubt, all that which God had already done. Speculation is one thing regarding that which we have no testimony from scripture to precisely define, it is another altogether when conclusive statements of scripture exist which do that very thing. Not just any scriptures, but those which the scriptures claim came directly from the mouth of God to humanity, as well as being written with His own finger in stone twice.
: The Barbarian Fri Apr 01, 2022 - 21:41:49
I notice that Stephen Gould perhaps the most well-known "evolutionist" because of his popular essays on the subject, willingly took on a YE creationist as a doctoral candidate. As Gould remarked, all that really counts is ability.
Just showing you that even a YE creationist was accepted as a doctoral candidate based on his ability, without regard for his religious beliefs.
As it should be. Though I understand the natural tendency of birds of a feather, flocking together.
It seems that the deal with Amo, is he finds hoofprints and says "Aha! Unicorns."
: The Barbarian Fri Apr 01, 2022 - 21:39:10
No kidding; monkeys are far too evolved in their own way to have ever given rise to humans. Humans are phylogentically apes, not monkeys.
That question comes down to evidence. Let's see what an honest and knowledgeable YE creationist says:
Evidences for Darwin's second expectation — of stratomorphic intermediate species — include such species as Baragwanathia27 (between rhyniophytes and lycopods), Pikaia28 (between echinoderms
and chordates), Purgatorius29 (between the tree shrews and the primates), and Proconsul30 (between the non-hominoid primates and the hominoids).
...
Evidence for not just one but for all three of the species level and above types of stratomorphic intermediates expected by macroevolutionary theory is surely strong evidence for macroevolutionary theory. Creationists therefore need to accept this fact.
YE creationist Dr. Kurt Wise, Toward a Creationist Understanding of Transitional Forms
It is retardation to believe we evolved from other apes. Science becomes religion to some.
I think it is only YECs who claim that evolution is a theory about humans evolving from other apes. Today's evolutionists really don't make that claim.
: 4WD Sat Apr 02, 2022 - 13:54:34
I think it is only YECs who claim that evolution is a theory about humans evolving from other apes. Today's evolutionists really don't make that claim.
I must have missed Barbarian saying he was a YEC. Maybe you can point out when he said that.
: Jaime Fri Apr 01, 2022 - 19:08:28
If it happened in an instantaneous bang that would have been worthy to make THAT semi clear in scripture, rather than mostly ambiguous or blurry. God did speak things into existence just not seemingly all in one instant, but as reported in scripture.
The earth itself was monumental to our ancestors, a brief explanation of it's creation an all living things was more than ample for the people of the day to try and comprehend. An explanation regarding the creation of the universe however, would be quite overwhelming to those same ears, especially since the common thought was that the sky and beyond was a dependent of the earth. God kept it simple, yet at the same time tells how all life and matter came to be over time.
I would say it tells it simply and how it came about pretty quickly.
I think the six days of creation tells the story over time. I've never really understood the literal six day account, it would have made much more sense to just "make it so". A single day of creating something doesn't really have any meaning or purpose other than to show it took time to make these things come to be.
: Texas Conservative Sat Apr 02, 2022 - 14:07:54
I must have missed Barbarian saying he was a YEC. Maybe you can point out when he said that.
I must have missed Barbarian ever saying that evolution is a theory about humans evolving from other apes.
Alan, as I have said before, I believe God was setting a pattern of time keeping. He set the sun and moon up to keep track of days, weeks, months and seasons and the Sabbath and Jubilee and Appointed times. It was a tutorial for Adam and Eve and all of mankind throughout the Bible. The context of the narrative of Genesis 1 was for a purpose not just a coincidence for primitive unlearned mankind. I would think a 24 hour day context would be perfectly congruant for the days of creation.
: Jaime Sat Apr 02, 2022 - 19:53:49
Alan, as I have said before, I believe God was setting a pattern of time keeping. He set the sun and moon up to keep track of days, weeks, months and seasons and the Sabbath and Jubilee and Appointed times.
But NOT until verse 14.... vs 14 thru 19
14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
They were different from what was done in verse 3-4
3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
That God... 5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
I read this to say if God made light on day one to divide the darkness... while he was creating....
If on day 4 he was going to do the sun and moon...( 3 days later)... to make the 24 hour day there would be no reason for him to do just ight by itself on on day 1 if creation was 7 literal 24 hour days .
How better to set the tone for the context of time than to use the word day from the very first few verses rather than leave the readers wondering "what happened to the first three days God? Days were just days with a sun in the sky. If God's time reference was different, I would assume the Holy spirit woulda indicated it in the communication to us.
: Texas Conservative Sat Apr 02, 2022 - 14:07:54
I must have missed Barbarian saying he was a YEC. Maybe you can point out when he said that.
You're a little confused. Humans are phylogenetically apes. It doesn't mean we evolved from any ape species here today. They are all far too evolved in their own directions to have give rise to humans. Rather humans and apes have a common ancestor. Since humans and chimpanzees are anatomically and genetically closer to each other than either is to any other living ape species, we share a common ancestor within the clade of apes.
: Alan Sat Apr 02, 2022 - 18:38:41
I think the six days of creation tells the story over time. I've never really understood the literal six day account, it would have made much more sense to just "make it so". A single day of creating something doesn't really have any meaning or purpose other than to show it took time to make these things come to be.
Yes, many people just don't see the significance of many scriptures. As though God does or says things which have no significance. Scripture itself though, testifies to the opposite effect.
2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ saw things very differently from such.
Mat 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4 But he answered and said,
It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.Our Lord Jesus Christ was and is God. He created this world the way He did for a reason, because everything He does has real live righteous, holy, and pure, intent, purpose, and effect. How does that which He formed from the dust of the earth, turn to Him and say, I see no significance in the way you did this or that? What is the end of such audacity?
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.....................................................
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood:
and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Why will the lost be lost, but because they determined certain words of our Lord, had no significance. My advice is to seriously consider, understand, and submit to the word of God. Such is life itself. The following commandment of God expresses exactly why the days are important, and one very prominent reason for establishing them.
Exo 20:8
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11
For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.The days of creation, and the seventh day in particular have a very specific and monumental purpose, entailing the difference between life and death. They serve as a weekly reminder of just who God really is, and just who we really are in relation to Him. Those who forget such, or choose to believe that which radically alters this truth, are in danger of losing their souls. As so very many already have, and unfortunately so many yet will. When God speaks, people better listen. Their very lives depend upon it.
: The Barbarian Sun Apr 03, 2022 - 07:44:52
You're a little confused. Humans are phylogenetically apes. It doesn't mean we evolved from any ape species here today. They are all far too evolved in their own directions to have give rise to humans. Rather humans and apes have a common ancestor. Since humans and chimpanzees are anatomically and genetically closer to each other than either is to any other living ape species, we share a common ancestor within the clade of apes.
I think you are the one confused. I believe the idea that we humans and apes have a common ancestor is idiotic.
I find this article to be interesting. The quoted section below is only a part of a longer read.
https://medium.com/understanding-reality/7-examples-of-proof-that-giants-existed-7e2de8806a0f
A Giant Cover-up
Over the last 100+ years, thousands of giant skeletons have been found throughout the world, especially in the American Midwest. So where is the evidence?
One way or another, the Smithsonian Institute quickly caught wind of most of these giant findings, and made the evidence "disappear." In most cases, those who exhumed the giant skeletons reported their findings immediately to the Smithsonian, naively trusting the Institute to do what was in the public interest.
Apparently the Smithsonian's concept of "in the public interest" includes "protecting Darwin's theory of evolution, and the established historical narrative, at all costs." In other words, lying to the public.
In August of 2015, a US Supreme court ruling forced the Smithsonian Institute to admit that it had been covering up and destroying tens of thousands of giant skeletal remains since the early 1900's.
The case against the Smithsonian was made by the American Institution of Alternative Archeology (AIAA), and the irrefutable evidence came from whistle blowers within the Smithsonian, who admitted to the existence of documents that allegedly proved the destruction of tens of thousands of human skeletons reaching between 6 feet and 12 feet in height, a reality mainstream archeology can not admit to for various reasons.
A spokesman for the AIAA, James Churward, explained:
"There has been a major cover up by western archaeological institutions since the early 1900′s to make us believe that America was first colonized by Asian peoples migrating through the Bering Strait 15,000 years ago, when in fact, there are hundreds of thousands of burial mounds all over America which the Natives claim were there a long time before them, and that show traces of a highly developed civilization, complex use of metal alloys and where giant human skeleton remains are frequently found but still go unreported in the media and news outlets."
( A picture of a femur found is in the link)
A giant human femur uncovered in Ohio in 2011 by the
American Association for Alternative Archeology,
similar to the evidence presented in court.
A turning point of the court case was when a 1.3 meter long human femur bone was shown as evidence in court of the existence of such giant human bones.
The evidence came as a blow to the Smithsonian's lawyers as the bone had been stolen from the Smithsonian by one of their high level curators in the mid 1930′s who had kept the bone all his life and which had admitted on his deathbed in writing of the undercover operations of the Smithsonian.
"It is a terrible thing that is being done to the American people," he wrote in the letter.
"We are hiding the truth about the forefathers of humanity, our ancestors, the giants who roamed the earth as recalled in the Bible and ancient texts of the world."
: Texas Conservative Tue Apr 05, 2022 - 19:10:04
I think you are the one confused. I believe the idea that we humans and apes have a common ancestor is idiotic.
I would certainly hope that your alternative explanation is one of pure faith, there is really nothing else that stands up to Barbarian's statement.
: Alan Tue Apr 05, 2022 - 19:42:22
I would certainly hope that your alternative explanation is one of pure faith, there is really nothing else that stands up to Barbarian's statement.
His pure faith of "science" and my pure faith of scripture? I don't find it probable that life transitions in such a manner to transition from ones species to another entirely new species.
In Science, not all theories are equal. You can agree with Barbarian's statement on your pure faith as well.
: Texas Conservative Tue Apr 05, 2022 - 20:11:30
His pure faith of "science" and my pure faith of scripture? I don't find it probable that life transitions in such a manner to transition from ones species to another entirely new species.
In Science, not all theories are equal. You can agree with Barbarian's statement on your pure faith as well.
I think you missed my point. It isn't about what I believe in, it's about a reasonable belief aside from the demonstrable science. I accept that people have faith in scripture and where that leads them to, what I don't accept is half-arsed science that makes attempts to overturn widely accepted scientific theory.
: Alan Tue Apr 05, 2022 - 23:54:03
I think you missed my point. It isn't about what I believe in, it's about a reasonable belief aside from the demonstrable science. I accept that people have faith in scripture and where that leads them to, what I don't accept is half-arsed science that makes attempts to overturn widely accepted scientific theory.
My reasonable belief is that the widely accepted science isn't 100% correct. I don't have an alternative theory to throw out there. A skeptic doesn't need another theory to realize the current one has issues. Our current scientific explanation is in its infancy, as Darwin's book On the Origin of Species was published in 1859.
: Alan Tue Apr 05, 2022 - 23:54:03
I think you missed my point. It isn't about what I believe in, it's about a reasonable belief aside from the demonstrable science. I accept that people have faith in scripture and where that leads them to, what I don't accept is half-arsed science that makes attempts to overturn widely accepted scientific theory.
Which do you believe is more reliable, widely accepted scientific theory, or God's word?
https://www.conservapedia.com/Atheism_and_evolution
Since World War II a majority of the most prominent and vocal defenders of the evolutionary position which employs methodological naturalism have been atheists.[2] The prominent new atheist, agnostic and evolutionist Richard Dawkins claims that "Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist".[3]
The majority of Western World atheists are evolutionists. As far as nontheist Buddhism, as no major beliefs/principles of Buddhism are contrary to it, many Buddhists are also evolutionists.[4][5]
The Discovery Institute reported:
"Compare just these two findings, reported in a survey we commissioned in 2016. On one hand:
Nearly 7 in 10 atheists and more than 4 in 10 agnostics say that for them personally, unguided chemical evolution and Darwin's mutation/natural selection mechanism have made the existence of God "less likely."
On the other:
By contrast, 6 in 10 theists and more than 2 in 10 agnostics say the existence in nature of "many things that are exquisitely designed and highly complex" has made the existence of God "more likely" for them personally.[6]
The atheist philosopher and evolutionist Michael Ruse admitted:
"[E]volution, akin to religion, involves making certain a priori or metaphysical assumptions, which at some level cannot be proven empirically.[7] "
Michael Ruse also indicated: "Evolution is a religion. This was true of evolution in the beginning, and it is true of evolution still today."[8]
In the their Question evolution! campaign, Creation Ministries International asserts that evolution is a religion.[9] The focus of the Question evolution! campaign is on 15 questions that evolutionists cannot adequately answer.[10] The 15 Questions that evolutionists cannot satisfactorily answer can be found at their webpage entitled 15 questions for evolutionists.
: Amo Wed Apr 06, 2022 - 12:19:24
Which do you believe is more reliable, widely accepted scientific theory, or God's word?
Both, they compliment each other beautifully. ::smile::
: Texas Conservative Wed Apr 06, 2022 - 12:11:28
Our current scientific explanation is in its infancy, as Darwin's book On the Origin of Species was published in 1859.
Scientists have probably updated it since then. I'm not really sure what the most current theory is.
: Alan Wed Apr 06, 2022 - 14:38:20
Both, they compliment each other beautifully. ::smile::
I hear that a lot, or read it, but no one ever tries to share exactly how they do complement each other. Saying it is one thing, actually quoting scripture and explaining how it compliments the science, is another.
: Amo Wed Apr 06, 2022 - 16:29:07
I hear that a lot, or read it, but no one ever tries to share exactly how they do complement each other. Saying it is one thing, actually quoting scripture and explaining how it compliments the science, is another.
That's because you don't appear to have the ability to stop and smell the roses, if God didn't tell you to smell them, you're not smelling. ::crackup::
: Amo Wed Apr 06, 2022 - 16:29:07
I hear that a lot, or read it, but no one ever tries to share exactly how they do complement each other. Saying it is one thing, actually quoting scripture and explaining how it compliments the science, is another.
They're opposite tactics. Faith is about understanding and assenting to what you hear/read. Science fundamentally questions every tenet and tries to disprove it.
They're mutually exclusive.
It makes my head hurt when people use science to try to prop up their bad ideas about Scripture. Especially when they aren't scientists and don't know what they're talking about.
Jarrod
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Thu Apr 07, 2022 - 02:45:18
They're opposite tactics. Faith is about understanding and assenting to what you hear/read. Science fundamentally questions every tenet and tries to disprove it.
They're mutually exclusive.
It makes my head hurt when people use science to try to prop up their bad ideas about Scripture. Especially when they aren't scientists and don't know what they're talking about.
Jarrod
They should be mutually exclusive. Science should be as you say. Scientists should be skeptics and seek to keep proving or disproving. But so many people believe in science as if it is a religion. Money and politics get in the way of truth.
The primary accepted answer in science for a particular topic is final, no longer up for debate. And that is sad.
: Texas Conservative Thu Apr 07, 2022 - 11:18:18
The primary accepted answer in science for a particular topic is final, no longer up for debate. And that is sad.
That is incorrect. Scientific theory is always adaptable to new evidence and/or data. Science never sets out to prove anything, but I'm sure you're well versed on the definition of science itself.
: Alan Thu Apr 07, 2022 - 19:39:04
That is incorrect. Scientific theory is always adaptable to new evidence and/or data. Science never sets out to prove anything, but I'm sure you're well versed on the definition of science itself.
Not incorrect. I was referring to how many people look at science. Even those who teach it.
: Alan Wed Apr 06, 2022 - 19:01:45
That's because you don't appear to have the ability to stop and smell the roses, if God didn't tell you to smell them, you're not smelling. ::crackup::
How does not comparing scientific theories with the word of God, and knowing or explaining them accordingly, equal smelling roses?
: Amo Fri Apr 08, 2022 - 06:54:25
How does not comparing scientific theories with the word of God, and knowing or explaining them accordingly, equal smelling roses?
The word of God is not about scientific theories; neither does it speak of scientific theories. Those who would actually do that, i.e., compare scientific theories with the word of God, more than likely know very little about either. The Church in the 13th, 14th and 15th centuries did just that in a variety of ways. It was a part of the inquisitions.
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Thu Apr 07, 2022 - 02:45:18
They're opposite tactics. Faith is about understanding and assenting to what you hear/read. Science fundamentally questions every tenet and tries to disprove it.
They're mutually exclusive.
It makes my head hurt when people use science to try to prop up their bad ideas about Scripture. Especially when they aren't scientists and don't know what they're talking about.
Jarrod
The world is filled with people declaring that those who disagree with them simply don't know what they are talking about. It never makes such so. God's word is truth, not just truth, but the standard of truth to which all others will one day submit. All that which will be found to actually contradict it, will be condemned as the lies that they are, and understood as the silly ramblings of those who simply had no clue due to immense lack of knowledge. As though they could accurately determine the truth of our origins and all creation which actually exists, from within the box we have been placed. Not!
2Ki 6:15 And when the servant of the man of God was risen early, and gone forth, behold, an host compassed the city both with horses and chariots. And his servant said unto him, Alas, my master! how shall we do? 16 And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them. 17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see.
And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha. 18 And when they came down to him, Elisha prayed unto the LORD, and said, Smite this people, I pray thee, with blindness. And he smote them with blindness according to the word of Elisha.
We are the single most ignorant beings of God's creation. We are not even privy to the dimensions within which they exist, but by special revelation from God Himself. Yet we compose vain imaginings and speculations which contradict the word of God given to us for instruction, doctrine, and reproof concerting truth. Saying they are the truth rather than God's word. Ignorant fools that we truly are. So be it. Nevertheless -
Isa 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. 19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right. 20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations:
they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save. 21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for
I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed. 25 In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.
Rom 14:11 For it is written,
As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
: Amo Fri Apr 08, 2022 - 07:25:16
The world is filled with people declaring that those who disagree with them simply don't know what they are talking about. It never makes such so.
And you are the epitome of those people who over and over again attempt to extract scientific theories from the Bible or attempt to show how scientific theories contradict the Bible.
: 4WD Fri Apr 08, 2022 - 07:11:04
The word of God is not about scientific theories; neither does it speak of scientific theories. Those who would actually do that, i.e., compare scientific theories with the word of God, more than likely know very little about either. The Church in the 13th, 14th and 15th centuries did just that in a variety of ways. It was a part of the inquisitions.
The word of God is truth, and all "scientific" theories which contradict its plain testimony are the false vain imaginings of fallen humanity.
Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. 19
I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.
He has clearly and simply revealed and stated the truth of our origins. Those who contradict these statements, some of which are straight out of the mouth of almighty God Himself and written with His own finger in stone, are preaching the vain imaginings of fallen humanity.
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11
For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.Psa 33:6
By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. 7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. 8 Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. 9
For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.Isa 8:20
To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.Those who reject the plain and simple truths and light of the above scriptures, are left in the darkness which they have chosen over it. So be it.
Joh 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
He who created the world and has saved us also said -
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.The theory of evolution trashes the fourth commandment of God, declaring its testimony untrue, destroying the fundamental reason for its observance. That humanity might know and remember just who God is, and just who they are in relation to Him. So be it.
: 4WD Fri Apr 08, 2022 - 07:35:17
And you are the epitome of those people who over and over again attempt to extract scientific theories from the Bible or attempt to show how scientific theories contradict the Bible.
The pot calling the kettle black. So be it.
Here we are, reveal the contradictions of scripture you speak of?
: Amo Fri Apr 08, 2022 - 07:54:55
The pot calling the kettle black. So be it.
I have never tried to extract or develop any scientific theory from the Bible nor have I ever tried to show how a scientific theory contradicts the Bible. That is you, Amo.
: Amo Fri Apr 08, 2022 - 07:54:55
Here we are, reveal the contradictions of scripture you speak of?
So far as I am concerned, there are no generally recognized scientific theories that contradict scripture. Again that is you, Amo.
: 4WD Fri Apr 08, 2022 - 08:24:20
So far as I am concerned, there are no generally recognized scientific theories that contradict scripture. Again that is you, Amo.
How about the theory that what cannot be proven does not exist? Like God, like the devil, etc?
I would say that is a HUGE contradiction to scripture.
: DaveW Fri Apr 08, 2022 - 13:38:31
How about the theory that what cannot be proven does not exist? Like God, like the devil, etc?
I would say that is a HUGE contradiction to scripture.
Sorry, that isn't science, it's philosophy.
Right on, Alan
: 4WD Fri Apr 08, 2022 - 08:21:40
I have never tried to extract or develop any scientific theory from the Bible nor have I ever tried to show how a scientific theory contradicts the Bible. That is you, Amo.
Yes, that is correct. The bible is my standard of truth concerning all things, to which I compare all things for authenticity. That would include science of course. So you are correct in that the bible is my standard of truth, and apparently is not your's. No argument with you on that one.
Luk 4:3 And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread. 4 And Jesus answered him, saying,
It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.While scripture certainly does not and cannot address everything concerning everything, it is most certainly proficient enough to divide between truth and error. That which it declares is truth, and that which contradicts what it declares is in fact false.
: 4WD Fri Apr 08, 2022 - 08:24:20
So far as I am concerned, there are no generally recognized scientific theories that contradict scripture. Again that is you, Amo.
Yes, again, that is me, not you. You are the one who sees no problems with all of the generally accepted scientific theories of this world, developed by your own admission with no reference to or guidance from scripture. I am the one who does see problems with some of them, and does claim that they contradict the testimony of the scriptures. Again, no argument with you on this point either. As I have often pointed out, our faiths have different foundations, and rely upon and trust different sources. You are correct.
: Alan Fri Apr 08, 2022 - 19:04:46
Sorry, that isn't science, it's philosophy.
And therein lies the problem. You think God and His word are philosophy, and not the absolute facts of the matter, matter itself, and the very existence of everything.
Jer 23:23 Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off? 24
Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.None can hide from the Lord, He fills heaven and earth. And yet the sciences of humanity cannot see or acknowledge Him in their examination of His creation, as He Himself has testified concerning it. God and Satan are not philosophy. They are the facts of the matter which every single person on this planet must deal with every day of their lives, whether they care to accept such or not. God's word is reality, not philosophy. Only those who come to realize this all consuming truth, over and above all other decelerations, will survive into the eternity of reality which God is.
Exo 3:13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 14 And God said unto Moses,
I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel,
I AM hath sent me unto you.
GOD IS, and there is no other. Apart from Him there is nothing, including all the vain philosophies and so called "sciences" of humanity. If God cannot be seen in them, they are useless puffs of smoke and vapor, here today gone tomorrow. Just as this world and everything in it is and are on their way out, but the word of God endures forever.
1Pe 1:24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25
But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
The glory of humanity and its philosophies and "sciences" will wither away. God's word endures forever. They will vanish, but His word will endure forever because His word is reality, and they are but a puff of smoke. So be it.
There is no science apart from God and His word, because there is no thing apart from God and His word. All such in the present, is a temporary spec of time in eternity, allowed only until all decisions are made concerning the only reality of all things, God. Only fallen humanity has vain imaginings separated from God, who alone is Himself reality, apart from which there is nothing. And so, here we are.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.Sure sounds a whole lot like the condition of things in the world today.
: Amo Sat Apr 09, 2022 - 09:06:57
As I have often pointed out, our faiths have different foundations, and rely upon and trust different sources.
Yes, your faith is in your interpretations, not necessarily God's word. Whether you want to admit it or not, your faith has basically the same foundations as mine. The foundation of your faith is essentially based upon what you think the word of God means. The foundation of my faith is essentially based upon what I think the word of God means.
: Amo Sat Apr 09, 2022 - 09:58:25
And therein lies the problem. You think God and His word are philosophy, and not the absolute facts of the matter, matter itself, and the very existence of everything.
I'll stop your rant right there. The quote isn't biblical in the first place.
: Amo Sat Apr 09, 2022 - 09:58:25
There is no science apart from God and His word...
What an unimaginably stupid thing to say. Nearly all, if not all, science exists apart from God's word. Clearly there is no true science apart from God, since it is His creation.
: 4WD Sat Apr 09, 2022 - 10:08:14
What an unimaginably stupid thing to say. Nearly all, if not all, science exists apart from God's word. Clearly there is no true science apart from God, since it is His creation.
Yes, I know, you simply do not understand. THERE IS NOTHING APART FROM GOD'S WORD, by which all things came into being, exist, consist, and will be judged.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight:
but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.There is nothing, and I mean nothing, apart from God. Save sin, sinners, and all of their vain imaginings. All of which are truly nothing, existing in a temporary state of allowance, only until God has determined it is time to end all such. Every thought, imagination, and expression of fallen humanity exists only in relation to God, and will be judged accordingly. Including all "sciences and philosophies of fallen humanity". They absolutely cannot be separated from God or His judgement regarding their future existence and or relation to truth or not. Nothing of this world can escape these realities upon all of this world. They are all part of it, including and even especially "sciences" or anything else attempting or claiming to explain what is.
GOD IS! And everything will be judged according to this reality which nothing can detach itself from. Hard as fallen creation might try. If God who alone is, cannot be seen in "science" then that science is false and in fact non existent.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things,
and by him all things consist.
There is no separating ourselves or our thoughts, our actions, our "sciences", our philosophies, our whatever from God, by whom all things consist. God alone will make this final separation which is itself death, in the judgment concerning all that which actually was and is separate from Him, in order to bring all of such to its final end. Forever. All the claims of science or any other discipline, faith, religion, politic, philosophy, or what have you, are directly connected to God through His creations from whom they come. If God who is all in all, is not found in them, they will be no more. This is the judgment of God coming upon all, that the proper order of all may be restored.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him,
that God may be all in all. All sciences or anything else which has been separated in any way shape or form from God who is all in all, will end in the judgement which is to exactly address all such, which exists only and alone on this fallen world. Nowhere else would anything even be imagined which would be determined as separate from God and His word, by which all things exist and consist. This state of being has only been allowed temporarily for those in need of salvation from it, because separation from God in any way shape or form, really means non existence. Either "science" reveals God and His word, or it is not only fake, but in fact non existent. So be it, and so will it be.
: 4WD Sat Apr 09, 2022 - 09:59:41
Yes, your faith is in your interpretations, not necessarily God's word. Whether you want to admit it or not, your faith has basically the same foundations as mine. The foundation of your faith is essentially based upon what you think the word of God means. The foundation of my faith is essentially based upon what I think the word of God means.
No sir. I need add nothing to plain, simple, conclusive statements of scripture to believe as I do. It is simply what they say. You cannot do this with your deep time evolution theory. You must add to it, to believe as you do. Again, again, again, and blah blah blah, as I repeat so very often -
please do provide even one scripture, taken for just what it says, which even suggests deep time simple to complex evolutionary processes. You cannot, which is why you have not. The best you can offer or have, is a link to someone doing exactly what you do, adding their own words, to come up with allowance for deep time evolution from scripture. Which is of course then, not from scripture. So be it.
: Alan Sat Apr 09, 2022 - 10:07:16
I'll stop your rant right there. The quote isn't biblical in the first place.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers:
all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
: Amo Sat Apr 09, 2022 - 10:42:17There is nothing, and I mean nothing, apart from God. Save sin, sinners, and all of their vain imaginings.
Which, seemingly unbeknownst to you, clearly includes you and your vain imaginings.
: Amo Sat Apr 09, 2022 - 10:55:35
No sir. I need add nothing to plain, simple, conclusive statements of scripture to believe as I do.
I course you add to it. You add your interpretation, specifically your interpretation of the Hebrew word "yom" which you insist can only mean a 24 hour day. But then it doesn't mean that in Genesis 2:4. It probably doesn't mean that in Genesis 2:2 either.
: 4WD Sat Apr 09, 2022 - 11:05:40
Which, seemingly unbeknownst to you, clearly includes you and your vain imaginings.
Yes, I understand that to you, certain scriptures and the fourth commandment of God, are vain imaginings. Along with your insistence that taking historical accounts within God's word to mean just what they state, is vain imagining as well. As stated before, if the creation account of scripture and the fourth commandment of God do actually mean deep time simple to complex evolution, then no scripture can be understood by any thing but, whatever anyone wants to make it. And rightly so. Which then of course, destroys the claims of other scriptures as well, which claim we can depend upon their truth and accuracy. And again, who are you then, to hold up any scripture as authoritative according to your own "interpretation", or anyone else for that matter? No one of course, just like all the rest of us, since scripture can obviously mean almost the exact opposite of what it simply states many times over.
Enough of this going around in circles for now though. Maybe some day there will actually be a translator of the scriptures that will produce a translation using the word yom as you suggest. Then you will actually be able to quote scripture to me, backing up your position. Of course such would create many contextual problems, which is why no doubt no one has done so yet, that I know of. Context is important. If you cannot fit one possible definition of a word into the context surrounding its use, that is very likely because that definition is not the proper one. So be it.
: Alan Fri Apr 08, 2022 - 19:04:46
Sorry, that isn't science, it's philosophy.
That may be true; but it is a very common attitude in the science community.
AND - there are those that insist that all science itself (including logic and mathematics) is nothing more than a philosophy.
: Amo Fri Apr 08, 2022 - 07:25:16
The world is filled with people declaring that those who disagree with them simply don't know what they are talking about. It never makes such so.
This should be a simple fix. Just show us your PhD in Astrophysics. No? How about Archaeology? Microbiology? Radiology? ANY relevant field at all?
I won't be holding my breath.
: DaveW Mon Apr 11, 2022 - 06:27:57
AND - there are those that insist that all science itself (including logic and mathematics) is nothing more than a philosophy.
Science isn't a philosophy per se, but it is married to one, and that one is cynicism.
Mathematics is a language. While it sees a lot of play with scientists, it can be used in any field.
Formal Logic isn't a part of the sciences. It is primarily a tool of persuasion. It belongs with the Arts... governance, rhetoric, speaking and writing, etc.
Jarrod
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Mon Apr 11, 2022 - 10:50:40
This should be a simple fix. Just show us your PhD in Astrophysics. No? How about Archaeology? Microbiology? Radiology? ANY relevant field at all?
I won't be holding my breath.
You mean those awards made by men, to give to other men, because they accepted the teachings and views of yet other men? Very many of which have been proved by time and increased knowledge to have been wrong time and time again? Whom apparently some think posses credentials which exclude them from scrutiny and question form others who do not posses such awards. Is that what you mean?
If that is what you desire though, I have already provided extensive lists of people who have those things, and disagree with the theory of evolution, and even believe in the literal creation account. Does that mean you should therefore agree with them instead of your own with such awards? Of course not, you should study and decide for yourself as everyone should in this world rife with deception. Therefore also, what is your argument truly, but the age old and lame argument that the majority represents that which is right and true. A fallacy which the scriptures and our Lord Jesus Christ refute to this day.
: Amo Wed Apr 13, 2022 - 08:49:45
You mean those awards made by men, to give to other men, because they accepted the teachings and views of yet other men?
No, credentials that are given for extensive study on a given topic. Very many of which have been proved by time and increased knowledge to have been wrong time and time again?
Very many? Proven? Specifics please.If that is what you desire though, I have already provided extensive lists of people who have those things, and disagree with the theory of evolution,
You post rubbish. Furthermore, your very disdain of science and the knowledge it brings forth, cannot be replaced with a crappy version of science.
: Amo Wed Apr 13, 2022 - 08:49:45
You mean those awards made by men, to give to other men, because they accepted the teachings and views of yet other men?
I mean credentials that are awarded by bodies of professionals recognizing that the recipient has passed muster in studying the subject matter.
If you don't have a relevant one, that's ok. Most people don't. I'm not a scientist. My degrees are in business and church management, my professional certifications have to do with finance and accounting. My ordination has long since lapsed (the gifts and calling of God are without repentance... until you stop paying dues and tithes).
: Amo Wed Apr 13, 2022 - 08:49:45
If that is what you desire though, I have already provided extensive lists of people who have those things, and disagree with the theory of evolution, and even believe in the literal creation account.
That isn't what I asked for at all. Don't try to move the goalposts.
Jarrod
: Alan Wed Apr 13, 2022 - 10:02:58
No, credentials that are given for extensive study on a given topic. Very many? Proven? Specifics please.You post rubbish. Furthermore, your very disdain of science and the knowledge it brings forth, cannot be replaced with a crappy version of science.
Yes, extensive studies by men, giving themselves and others awards for their own studies and conclusions. Also giving awards to those who study under them as well. Given of course, that they agree with their conclusions, or at the very least pass tests acknowledging that they understand them correctly.
Are you seriously saying you don't think specifics can be provided covering the mistakes of accepted scientific theories of the past? I have already provided many on these boards. Perhaps I will take the time to post some again, but there really is no need for any such that will look the simple truth in the face. Scientists have been wrong many times before. While many who also accepted and or learned these mistakes from them, may have been awarded at the time these fallacies were accepted by them as truth. Those awards were therefore obviously not appropriate.
The crappy science argument goes both ways of course. We both know that I am not talking about settled, observable, tested, and proved science. I am talking about the very unsettled issue of the deep time theory of evolution, as it stands concerning the cause and basis of our origins and undirected random chance existence and progression of life. You simply constantly confuse it with all science, that you may falsely declare I am against all of it, which is a load of crap. Nevertheless, you are free to do as you wish, just like the rest of us of course.
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Wed Apr 13, 2022 - 10:31:06
I mean credentials that are awarded by bodies of professionals recognizing that the recipient has passed muster in studying the subject matter.
If you don't have a relevant one, that's ok. Most people don't. I'm not a scientist. My degrees are in business and church management, my professional certifications have to do with finance and accounting. My ordination has long since lapsed (the gifts and calling of God are without repentance... until you stop paying dues and tithes).
That isn't what I asked for at all. Don't try to move the goalposts.
Jarrod
Yes, that is accurate cornering such awards. Not however proof positive that said "professionals" reached proper conclusions.
To the contrary, my instructor has the highest credentials possible, being the word of God. As high above all others, as God is. His word is sure, you and all others can believe that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oiYnPFM5I4
The above video is a very good summation of the creation and flood account by Dr, Kurt Wise. A man with the credentials some consider very important.
Dr. Kurt Wise, Professor of Biology:
Ph.D., Harvard University
M.A., Harvard University
B.A., University of Chicago
: Amo Wed Apr 13, 2022 - 12:01:48
Are you seriously saying you don't think specifics can be provided covering the mistakes of accepted scientific theories of the past?
There you go again, pretending I asked the question you want to answer, instead of actually responding to me. Do you even bother to look at our posts?
: Amo Wed Apr 13, 2022 - 12:01:48
I have already provided many on these boards. Perhaps I will take the time to post some again, but there really is no need for any such that will look the simple truth in the face.
I'm sure you will do that again. No matter how much we tell you that we don't give a flapjack about the nonsense you post, you continue.
: Amo Wed Apr 13, 2022 - 12:01:48
Scientists have been wrong many times before. While many who also accepted and or learned these mistakes from them, may have been awarded at the time these fallacies were accepted by them as truth. Those awards were therefore obviously not appropriate.
The crappy science argument goes both ways of course. We both know that I am not talking about settled, observable, tested, and proved science. I am talking about the very unsettled issue of the deep time theory of evolution, as it stands concerning the cause and basis of our origins and undirected random chance existence and progression of life. You simply constantly confuse it with all science, that you may falsely declare I am against all of it, which is a load of crap. Nevertheless, you are free to do as you wish, just like the rest of us of course.
For the 4th time (or however many it is now), I don't talk (or care whatsoever) about "creation science." I care about the Bible.
You know how I can tell that all your so-called science is really an attempt to force the evidence to fit your conclusion? It's because your conclusion isn't even what the Bible actually says! It's based on Catholic tradition from long ago, which is pretty ironic considering your abhorrence of all things Catholic.
Jarrod
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Wed Apr 13, 2022 - 16:28:02
There you go again, pretending I asked the question you want to answer, instead of actually responding to me. Do you even bother to look at our posts?
I'm sure you will do that again. No matter how much we tell you that we don't give a flapjack about the nonsense you post, you continue.
For the 4th time (or however many it is now), I don't talk (or care whatsoever) about "creation science." I care about the Bible.
You know how I can tell that all your so-called science is really an attempt to force the evidence to fit your conclusion? It's because your conclusion isn't even what the Bible actually says! It's based on Catholic tradition from long ago, which is pretty ironic considering your abhorrence of all things Catholic.
Jarrod
Yes, I do look at your posts. Actually, you responded to my response to Alan, not you. I wasn't pretending you asked a certain question, I wasn't even responding to you in that post. Easy mistake, as I was responding to two people, with similar points.
: Alan Wed Apr 13, 2022 - 10:02:58
No, credentials that are given for extensive study on a given topic. Very many? Proven? Specifics please.You post rubbish. Furthermore, your very disdain of science and the knowledge it brings forth, cannot be replaced with a crappy version of science.
Exhibit A of crappy evolutionary science, backed up by people with "real" credentials of their time.
THE ORIGIN OF RACES, by Carleton S. Coon.
Credited and recommended by such as - Ernst Mayer, Agassiz Professor of Zoology, Harvard University.
William W. Howells, Professor of Anthropology, Harvard University.
William S. Straus, Jr., Professor of Anatomy and Physical Anthropology, John Hopkins University.
J. Franklin Ewings, s. j., Fordham University.
J. Lawrence Angel, Curator of Physical Anthropology, Smithsonian Institution.
Wilton Krogman, Professor of Physical Anthropology, University of Pennsylvania.
Daniel A. Poling, Editor, Christian Herald Magazine.
George Gaylord Simpson, Museum of Comparative Zoology, Harvard University.
Sir Julian Huxley.
Cover Statement - The first detailed history of the evolution of the five races of man - a pioneer work, a milestone of scientific thought. It advances Darwinian theory beyond the origin of species to the myth-ridden question of the origin of subspecies, or races.
An example of wrong conclusions based upon faulty premise and limited data. Which observations enhanced already existing racist views, in determining certain races being less evolved.
: Amo Sat Apr 16, 2022 - 08:55:30
Exhibit A of crappy evolutionary science, backed up by people with "real" credentials of their time.
The issue with this extremely small group of "scientists" is their agenda. I've said this before, but I'll just refresh you here. You will never find a secular study that agrees with ANY young earth theories, they're virtually non-existent. If any of these so called scientists had any legitimate and unbiased data to share, surely it would be confirmed by at least some groups outside of the religious faiths.
I'm sure your spin on this is that they're all out to discredit the existence of God, but the truth is that the vast majority of them couldn't care less about the concept of an all mighty creator, their quests are limited to observable and testable research, nothing else.
: Alan Sat Apr 16, 2022 - 10:16:11
The issue with this extremely small group of "scientists" is their agenda. I've said this before, but I'll just refresh you here. You will never find a secular study that agrees with ANY young earth theories, they're virtually non-existent. If any of these so called scientists had any legitimate and unbiased data to share, surely it would be confirmed by at least some groups outside of the religious faiths.
I'm sure your spin on this is that they're all out to discredit the existence of God, but the truth is that the vast majority of them couldn't care less about the concept of an all mighty creator, their quests are limited to observable and testable research, nothing else.
Gee, I wonder why that would be, could it be -
Secular
adjective
1. of or relating to worldly things or to things that are not regarded as religious, spiritual, or sacred; temporal:
secular interests.
2. not pertaining to or connected with religion (opposed to sacred):
secular music.
3. (of education, a school, etc.) concerned with nonreligious subjects.
4. (of members of the clergy) not belonging to a religious order; not bound by monastic vows (opposed to regular).
Of course secular studies and groups would not be associated with creation oriented studies or groups. So what. Why would anyone expect them to be,
they are secular. This is of course where people who do not want to hear about God or religion would associate, study, practice and what have you. Which strangely enough, is where you and other evolution believing Christians turn for their standard of truth, concerning our origins over and above the word of God. Denying that scientists which believing in the creation account of scripture as it plainly states, should not even be allowed a seat at the table of "real science". Making themselves "lords" of science as it were. Determining which fields of study can be determined "real science", and which cannot. This is of course only in their own minds though, certainly not the minds of the who disagree with them.
If God created the world, even by your own standard of deep time evolutionary processes, then the truth is still that God created the world. Yet, by your own standard, no "real science" should allow for such. Which simply means that your supposed "real science" cannot be associated with or lead to the ultimate truth. So be it, as the holy scriptures have determined.
2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7
Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was. 10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, 11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.The above is not secular knowledge, nor is it for those who place secular knowledge above it. To the contrary, it exactly addresses those who place the secular knowledge of this fallen world, above it.
: Amo Sat Apr 16, 2022 - 12:49:59
Of course secular studies and groups would not be associated with creation oriented studies or groups. So what. Why would anyone expect them to be, they are secular. This is of course where people who do not want to hear about God or religion would associate, study, practice and what have you. Which strangely enough, is where you and other evolution believing Christians turn for their standard of truth, concerning our origins over and above the word of God.
You've got it all wrong, but I'm not surprised in the least that you believe that secular science has taken a side against God. Believing or not believing in God isn't going to alter a good scientist's views, that is something reserved for the wacky world of creation scientists. As I said above, never has a scientist outside of religion agreed with the pseudo science of YEC, I wonder why that might be? ::pondering::
: Alan Sat Apr 16, 2022 - 13:40:53
You've got it all wrong, but I'm not surprised in the least that you believe that secular science has taken a side against God. Believing or not believing in God isn't going to alter a good scientist's views, that is something reserved for the wacky world of creation scientists. As I said above, never has a scientist outside of religion agreed with the pseudo science of YEC, I wonder why that might be? ::pondering::
Science (by that I mean scientists) is not immune from influence of money, politics, of personal bias. This past two years has demonstrated that over and over. Faulty mask studies, vaccine studies, and most of the words out of Fauci's mouth.
Amen.
: Alan Sat Apr 16, 2022 - 13:40:53
You've got it all wrong, but I'm not surprised in the least that you believe that secular science has taken a side against God. Believing or not believing in God isn't going to alter a good scientist's views, that is something reserved for the wacky world of creation scientists. As I said above, never has a scientist outside of religion agreed with the pseudo science of YEC, I wonder why that might be? ::pondering::
Let's get a little more specific. Bring the wacky creation science you always refer to, to the table. Let's examine and discuss just how wacky it is. I've done this on these boards with many articles of the evolutionary persuasion. Instead of just making such a claim, how about doing the same. Actually back up that claim with a little time, thought, and expression. Thanks, if you will.
: Texas Conservative Sat Apr 16, 2022 - 14:42:52
Science (by that I mean scientists) is not immune from influence of money, politics, of personal bias. This past two years has demonstrated that over and over. Faulty mask studies, vaccine studies, and most of the words out of Fauci's mouth.
I don't argue that one bit, science is just another avenue for politicians to exploit it's public, however I feel that there is a vast difference between research and media blurbs. Even we were able to acquire some of the correct data through all of the pandemic mess, and it varied drastically from what we were being told on MSM.
: Texas Conservative Sat Apr 16, 2022 - 14:42:52
Science (by that I mean scientists) is not immune from influence of money, politics, of personal bias. This past two years has demonstrated that over and over. Faulty mask studies, vaccine studies, and most of the words out of Fauci's mouth.
Here's a video on that very subject
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEoNZSLabLc
Wait, what?
I have lost track .
Who believes there were human type giants on this earth at some point and who thinks there were giant animals (ie dinosaur types) along with human types, and who believes there has never been any oversized living things on this earth at any point.
: Alan Sat Apr 16, 2022 - 18:52:31
I don't argue that one bit, science is just another avenue for politicians to exploit it's public, however I feel that there is a vast difference between research and media blurbs. Even we were able to acquire some of the correct data through all of the pandemic mess, and it varied drastically from what we were being told on MSM.
Research is usually funded by government or business sources. Often with an implicit bent.
I am not arguing that the current best explanation of the evidence we have now requires an older earth. I am arguing that scientists, even those with the best intentions are faced with their own bias, politics, funding requirements, and other things that may color their research.
: Rella Mon Apr 18, 2022 - 08:16:04
Wait, what?
I have lost track .
Who believes there were human type giants on this earth at some point and who thinks there were giant animals (ie dinosaur types) along with human types, and who believes there has never been any oversized living things on this earth at any point.
I don't know of any scientists that do to understand that there certainly were many creatures in the past much larger than today. Which does certainly suggest a different atmosphere and or environment supporting such. I think it is just the human giants many if not most have a problem with.
: Texas Conservative Mon Apr 18, 2022 - 08:36:25
Research is usually funded by government or business sources. Often with an implicit bent.
I am not arguing that the current best explanation of the evidence we have now requires an older earth. I am arguing that scientists, even those with the best intentions are faced with their own bias, politics, funding requirements, and other things that may color their research.
Similar to the medical profession during Covid. Political bias won over common sense at the expense of the people, aka Fauci/NIH run amuck.
: Texas Conservative Mon Apr 18, 2022 - 08:36:25
Research is usually funded by government or business sources. Often with an implicit bent.
I am not arguing that the current best explanation of the evidence we have now requires an older earth. I am arguing that scientists, even those with the best intentions are faced with their own bias, politics, funding requirements, and other things that may color their research.
As with most science, there are always teams of people attempting to better or improve on the current trend, we saw glimpses of that during the pandemic, and before that, climate change. I agree that there is bias in research, especially when it comes to funding, but there is a big difference between what is being purported on MSM and entered into weekly publications, than what we read in the texts in libraries. The biases and monetary gains are not on par with trendy research.
: Jaime Mon Apr 18, 2022 - 11:35:50
Similar to the medical profession during Covid. Political bias won over common sense at the expense of the people, aka Fauci/NIH run amuck.
Yep, but that doesn't speak for all science anymore than a politician getting into politics to run a personal agenda, a business owner opening his business as an affront for a money laundering scheme, or a pastor opening a church solely for monetary gain. It does happen, but it's not a hard and fast rule.
: Alan Mon Apr 18, 2022 - 11:55:04
Yep, but that doesn't speak for all science anymore than...
It sure feels like its most of it. Just follow the money.
If the science is being paid for a corporation, can we really trust it? If it's being paid for by a charity, who's running the charity? Half the time it's one of those corporations anyway.
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Mon Apr 18, 2022 - 14:29:05
It sure feels like its most of it. Just follow the money.
If the science is being paid for a corporation, can we really trust it? If it's being paid for by a charity, who's running the charity? Half the time it's one of those corporations anyway.
In the astronomy and paleontology worlds, a lot of the research is privately funded, and more often than not, through grants. These types of researchers are the Kraft dinner and wieners among scientists. I doubt any of them would sell their souls for the pittance they receive as a wage. I don't know this for certain, but I would bet a huge slice of the $6 billion allotted by the National Science Foundation goes directly to molecular science, immunology, and biology.
Let's get a little more specific. Bring the wacky creation science you always refer to, to the table. Let's examine and discuss just how wacky it is. I've done this on these boards with many articles of the evolutionary persuasion. Instead of just making such a claim, how about doing the same. Actually back up that claim with a little time, thought, and expression. Thanks, if you will.
I don't think the people you are debating with believe that the problem with secular science is a
spiritual one as opposed to a methodology and academic one. Secular means the exclusion of God/religion, so a spiritual problem automatically exists there, at all times and colors everything those secular scientists say and do. Just as the inclusion of God should color everything a Christian scientist says or does. Secular scientist's studies are always focused around the concept that God does not exist and everything happens by chance so nothing within those spheres of existence has any credence, because those secular scientists exclude those possibilities, before they even begin their studies. Their studies are not purely objective, no matter what some people in this thread may say. There is an automatic built-in bias from day one. Christian scientists perform their studies with the built-in bias that God exists and made our creation so their studies revolve around that from Day One as well. Both sets are biased. The Bible contains science in many places. It may be the kindergarten version, but there is certainly enough of a framework there to allow us to know, without doubt how the system was created. I love science, always have. But those who think that they can have a scientific system that operates and is accepted outside the Bible are dead wrong.
: Cobalt1959 Thu Apr 21, 2022 - 03:16:55
I don't think the people you are debating with believe that the problem with secular science is a spiritual one as opposed to a methodology and academic one. Secular means the exclusion of God/religion, so a spiritual problem automatically exists there, at all times and colors everything those secular scientists say and do. Just as the inclusion of God should color everything a Christian scientist says or does. Secular scientist's studies are always focused around the concept that God does not exist and everything happens by chance so nothing within those spheres of existence has any credence, because those secular scientists exclude those possibilities, before they even begin their studies. Their studies are not purely objective, no matter what some people in this thread may say. There is an automatic built-in bias from day one. Christian scientists perform their studies with the built-in bias that God exists and made our creation so their studies revolve around that from Day One as well. Both sets are biased. The Bible contains science in many places. It may be the kindergarten version, but there is certainly enough of a framework there to allow us to know, without doubt how the system was created. I love science, always have. But those who think that they can have a scientific system that operates and is accepted outside the Bible are dead wrong.
I disagree is regards to your ideas of biases, well not so much with Christian science which is very biased to manipulate the facts into a nice neat package that fits with their version of scripture. Secular science isn't an actual thing, astronomers, biologists, cytologists, biologists, paleontologists, etc, etc, simply study their field with the tools they have at their disposal. For the most part, creation doesn't need to enter the equation, scientists simply observe and study what is right there in front of them. You may be surprised to find out that many scientists also believe in a creator.
: Cobalt1959 Thu Apr 21, 2022 - 03:16:55
I don't think the people you are debating with believe that the problem with secular science is a spiritual one as opposed to a methodology and academic one. Secular means the exclusion of God/religion, so a spiritual problem automatically exists there, at all times and colors everything those secular scientists say and do. Just as the inclusion of God should color everything a Christian scientist says or does. Secular scientist's studies are always focused around the concept that God does not exist and everything happens by chance so nothing within those spheres of existence has any credence, because those secular scientists exclude those possibilities, before they even begin their studies. Their studies are not purely objective, no matter what some people in this thread may say. There is an automatic built-in bias from day one. Christian scientists perform their studies with the built-in bias that God exists and made our creation so their studies revolve around that from Day One as well. Both sets are biased. The Bible contains science in many places. It may be the kindergarten version, but there is certainly enough of a framework there to allow us to know, without doubt how the system was created. I love science, always have. But those who think that they can have a scientific system that operates and is accepted outside the Bible are dead wrong.
You are correct sir. Which has been one of my main points of contention. Both views are faith based. One places faith in God and His word, the other in the speculations of fallen humanity and their word. The latter though, has the audacity to tell the former, that their observations and findings can't even be called science. BALONEY!
: Alan Thu Apr 21, 2022 - 06:59:06
I disagree is regards to your ideas of biases, well not so much with Christian science which is very biased to manipulate the facts into a nice neat package that fits with their version of scripture. Secular science isn't an actual thing, astronomers, biologists, cytologists, biologists, paleontologists, etc, etc, simply study their field with the tools they have at their disposal. For the most part, creation doesn't need to enter the equation, scientists simply observe and study what is right there in front of them. You may be surprised to find out that many scientists also believe in a creator.
https://www.allaboutworldview.org/secular-science.htm
Article below from link above.
Secular Science
Secular Science – Introduction
The core of Secular Science is well-summarized by George Gaylord Simpson, "Man is the result of a purposeless and natural process that did not have him in mind. He was not planned. He is a state of matter, a form of life, a sort of animal, and a species of the Order Primates, akin nearly or remotely to all of life and indeed to all that is material."1
Belief in evolution is as crucial to Humanism's worldview as are its atheistic theology and naturalistic philosophy. In fact, the Humanist's ideas about the origin of life can be considered a special dimension of these disciplines. Without the theory of evolution, the Humanist would have to rely on God as the explanation for life, which would necessarily destroy his atheism. Therefore, every Secular Humanist embraces the theory of evolution.
The Humanist Manifesto I states, "Humanism believes that man is a part of nature and that he has emerged as the result of a continuous process."2 This belief is echoed in the Humanist Manifesto II, which claims that "science affirms that the human species is an emergence from natural evolutionary forces."3 And in Humanist Manifesto 2000 Kurtz says, "The theory of evolution and the standards of ecology should also be studied."4
For the Humanist, atheistic evolution is not one option among many, but rather the only option compatible with their worldview. Creationism, or Intelligent Design, is considered an enemy of science.
Secular Science – The Role of Science
Humanists rely on secular science as the basic source of knowledge. They claim that a true definition of science excludes any supernatural explanation for any event occurring in nature, including the origin of life. For Humanists, the scientist must only study what takes place in nature and arrive at naturalistic explanations for all events. In this way, the supernatural is ruled out of bounds.
Obviously, when one assumes that science is the best method of obtaining knowledge and that science must exclude the supernatural, one cannot accept supernatural explanations for the origin of life. Julian Huxley sums it up: "Modern science must rule out special creation or divine guidance."5
Why must "modern" science rule out creation? Because, as we have noted, science cannot observe or measure the supernatural and therefore is incapable of obtaining any knowledge about it. But by this definition science cannot render judgment on the theory of evolution, either. That is because one-time-only historical events, such as the origin of life, fall outside the parameters of the scientific method. The reason: such events cannot be repeated, observed, tested, or falsified.6 Accordingly, neither creationism nor evolution is strictly "scientific."
Still, Humanists insist that evolutionary theory is scientific and the idea of a Grand Designer is not. Just how closed-minded the Humanists are toward creation is summed up by Isaac Asimov: "To those who are trained in science, creationism seems like a bad dream, a sudden reliving of a nightmare, a renewed march of an army of the night risen to challenge free thought and enlightenment."7
Secular Science – Evolution as "Fact"
Secular Science is grounded in Darwinian Evolution. Carl Sagan states simply, "Evolution is a fact, not a theory."8 Huxley claims, "The first point to make about Darwin's theory is that it is no longer a theory, but a fact...Darwinianism has come of age so to speak. We do no longer have to bother about establishing the fact of evolution."9 Antony Flew is scandalized by the notion that there was a time, "unbelievably," when the Vatican questioned "the fact of the evolutionary origin of the species."10
Thus, Humanists claim that the fact of evolution relates to changes within a species (microevolution) as well as macroevolution, or the transmutation of species. In other words, Humanists are not just claiming that science has proven that dogs can evolve into faster or bigger breeds; they also are claiming that all dogs, indeed all mammals, evolved from reptiles, and reptiles evolved from amphibians, amphibians evolved from fish, and so on back to the first speck of life. They wholeheartedly believe Darwin's conclusion that because microevolutionary changes occur among species, these changes can accumulate over time to produce macro-changes.
Secular Science – Conclusion
Secular Science rests its case for evolution on six specific planks: spontaneous generation, natural selection, struggle for existence, beneficial mutations, adaptations, and the fossil record (see "Related Articles" in the right sidebar). However, over the past thirty years, the fossil record has only hindered attempts to prove macroevolution. Therefore, some evolutionists have been forced to abandon Darwin's original theory of gradual change and postulate punctuated equilibrium in order to salvage the last plank of their theory.
Humanism relies on evolution for much more than a theory about the origin of life. The theory of evolution has significant implications for ethics, sociology, law, and politics. Humanists consider evolution the correct foundation for every individual's worldview and believe that a proper understanding of the world comes only from this perspective.
For this reason, Humanists encourage teaching evolution as "fact" throughout our educational system—thereby relegating the supernatural, especially God, to the world of literary mythology. Humanists do not just expect evolution to be taught as fact in the biology classroom, but rather believe, in the words of Julian Huxley, that "it is essential for evolution to become the central core of any educational system, because it is evolution, in the broad sense, that links inorganic nature with life, and the stars with earth, and matter with mind, and animals with man. Human history is a continuation of biological evolution in a different form."11
Since Huxley, however, a lot of discussion in the scientific community has been unfavorable for Darwin. As Stephen Meyer writes,
In the last decade a host of scientific essays and books have questioned the efficacy of [natural] selection and [genetic] mutation as a mechanism for generating morphological novelty, as even a brief literature survey will establish. Thomson (1992:107) expressed doubt that large-scale morphological changes could accumulate via minor phenotypic changes at the population genetic level. Miklos (1993:29) argued that neo-Darwinism fails to provide a mechanism that can produce large-scale innovations in form and complexity. Gilbert et. al. (1996) attempted to develop a new theory of evolutionary mechanisms to supplement classical neo-Darwinism, which, they argued, could not adequately explain macroevolution.12
The reason there is neo-Darwinism (natural selection plus mutations or genetic mistakes) is because Darwinism (natural selection by itself) could not carry the evolutionary theory. The reason there is punctuated equilibrium is because neo-Darwinism can't either. Now, the entire edifice is beginning to crumble under the latest scientific investigations. It appears this major category of the Secular Humanist worldview is beginning to disintegrate before their eyes.
: Alan Thu Apr 21, 2022 - 06:59:06
I disagree is regards to your ideas of biases, well not so much with Christian science which is very biased to manipulate the facts into a nice neat package that fits with their version of scripture. Secular science isn't an actual thing, astronomers, biologists, cytologists, biologists, paleontologists, etc, etc, simply study their field with the tools they have at their disposal. For the most part, creation doesn't need to enter the equation, scientists simply observe and study what is right there in front of them. You may be surprised to find out that many scientists also believe in a creator.
Emphasis in the above quote is mine.
https://secular.org/key-issue/science/
If the United States strives to lead the world's nations into the future, our government's decision-making must be based on science and evidence, not dogma.http://www.startsateight.com/secular-science-curriculum/
10 Secular Science Curriculum Options for Your Homeschoolhttps://royalbaloo.com/secular-science-curriculum-elementary/
Secular Science Homeschool Curriculum List for Elementaryhttps://www.forgetfulmomma.com/secular-science-curriculum/
Homeschool Secular Science Curriculum
https://happyhomeschoolhouse.com/elementary/science/best-secular-science-curriculum/
Best Secular Homeschool Science Curriculum for Elementaryhttps://happyhomeschoolhouse.com/high-school/science/best-secular-science-curriculum/
Best Secular Homeschool Science Curriculum for High Schoolhttps://biologos.org/articles/four-reasons-we-recommend-secular-science-curricula
Four Reasons We Recommend Secular Science Curriculahttps://thehomeschoolresourceroom.com/2019/11/27/secular-homeschool-curriculum/
Secular Homeschool Curriculum Guide: 2021 UPDATEhttps://www.lookwerelearning.com/secular-science-curriculum/
How to Choose a Secular Science Curriculumhttps://seahomeschoolers.com/blog/2021/10/13/secular-homeschooling-vetting-secular-science-curriculum/
Vetting Secular Science Curriculum
10 Ways to Make Sure Your Science Curriculum IS Secularhttps://homeschoolgameschool.com/giant-list-of-free-secular-homeschool-science-curriculum/
Giant List of Free Secular Homeschool Science Curriculum
: Amo Thu Apr 21, 2022 - 07:01:37
You are correct sir. Which has been one of my main points of contention. Both views are faith based. One places faith in God and His word, the other in the speculations of fallen humanity and their word. The latter though, has the audacity to tell the former, that their observations and findings can't even be called science. BALONEY!
You seem to think that your interpretations of God's word is based upon something other than "the speculations of fallen humanity". It isn't.
And there need not be any contradiction between believing in God and believing in the science that is discovered within God's creation. Science is not produced; rather it is discovered.
: Amo Thu Apr 21, 2022 - 07:29:02
Emphasis in the above quote is mine.
https://secular.org/key-issue/science/ (https://secular.org/key-issue/science/)
So it exists in some form, big deal. That doesn't speak for the majority of scientific studies. Again, you're just stretching.
: 4WD Thu Apr 21, 2022 - 08:40:12
You seem to think that your interpretations of God's word is based upon something other than "the speculations of fallen humanity". It isn't.
And there need not be any contradiction between believing in God and believing in the science that is discovered within God's creation. Science is not produced; rather it is discovered.
Broken record.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoRmZwsdS0Q
Not sure what message this video was intended to convey, but it appears to show remnants of the flood or other major catastrophes around the world. Imprints left in rock from structures long gone which were buried at one point. Some utilized and built upon, around, or in presently. The ruins of which no doubt many ancient cities, religions, and cultures were built upon. Explaining the enigma of apparently higher tech societies further back in time in certain areas around the world.
: Amo Sat Apr 23, 2022 - 23:54:42
Broken record.
Says the broken record.
: 4WD Sun Apr 24, 2022 - 06:46:16
Says the broken record.
Yep, that would be us. We have gone over this same issue again and again and again.
: Amo Sun Apr 24, 2022 - 00:05:10
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoRmZwsdS0Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoRmZwsdS0Q)
Not sure what message this video was intended to convey, but it appears to show remnants of the flood or other major catastrophes around the world. Imprints left in rock from structures long gone which were buried at one point. Some utilized and built upon, around, or in presently. The ruins of which no doubt many ancient cities, religions, and cultures were built upon. Explaining the enigma of apparently higher tech societies further back in time in certain areas around the world.
The video is referring to melting rock, perhaps by a plasma surge or other anomaly.
: Alan Sun Apr 24, 2022 - 08:06:45
The video is referring to melting rock, perhaps by a plasma surge or other anomaly.
That could certainly explain the appearance of some of the rocks. Others seem more like mud rock or what have you, leaving imprints of structures that once were, being either partially buried by the same or completely buried and exposed later by other catastrophic events. If not human digging and or activity. Which seems more likely than such being carved out of solid rock with such precision long ago. Either case reveals fairly high tech. of long ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4AI180llfU
Canadian guy sharing sharing ancient structures and such in Canada.
: 4WD Sun Apr 24, 2022 - 06:46:16
Says the broken record.
we need help/said we need help/said we need helpOh wait - that record was NOT broke - just played backward.
? ? ?
https://phys.org/news/2021-04-fossils-giant-cloud-rats-philippine.html
More giants of the past. Rats this time. Can't see to find an article giving the actual size.
: 4WD Mon Apr 25, 2022 - 07:22:37
? ? ?
C'mon - you're old enough to remember the White Album?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6Cm7UCdvGU
At about twenty minutes in, he starts talking about dinosaurs and humanity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Y1KQPAnuys
I thought I read somewhere a while back about a artist who said he was hired to create what is seen in this video. If so I think he did a pretty good job. Quite an elaborate hoax. Anyone else know details about this site.
: Amo Sat Apr 30, 2022 - 14:00:56
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Y1KQPAnuys (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Y1KQPAnuys)
I thought I read somewhere a while back about a artist who said he was hired to create what is seen in this video. If so I think he did a pretty good job. Quite an elaborate hoax. Anyone else know details about this site.
It is from an art exhibit on display at different outdoor sites at the southern region of Krabi from Nov. 2, 2018 through Sept. 28, 2019.by artist Tu Wei-cheng .
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/giant-skeleton-battling-serpent/
Here is what snores says about my previous post video.
On the other hand, there is this -
https://www.thelibertybeacon.com/fact-checking-is-controlled-faked/
I KNEW IT!
https://roaring.earth/the-mammoth-factor-why-prehistoric-animals-were-so-big/
The Mammoth Factor: Why Prehistoric Animals Were So Big
Super-sized animals dominated the Pleistocene era and dated back as far as the dinosaurs — but hardly exist on Earth today.
Skeletons of dinosaurs, mastodons, and mammoths fill archaeology museums around the world in awe-inspiring displays of massive size. These animals are recognized as megafauna, some weighing well over a metric ton.
The fossil record reveals accurate evidence of a mass extinction of Pleistocene megafauna near the end of the last Ice Age. A few of these species included the cave bear, the straight-tusked elephant, wooly rhinoceros, mammoth, the giant ground sloth, and the giant deer.
Scientists have long theorized the reasoning behind the impressive size of these animals and their subsequent extinction. Some surmise these animals boasted large sizes due to a greater concentration of oxygen in the atmosphere and more topographical space due to massive undeveloped land masses. Many scientists equate their massive size to evolutionary adaptations due to increasing competition, an idea that was transformed into a widely accepted theory.
A paleontologist named Edward Cope is responsible for the officially recognized Cope's Rule. The concept suggests that competition between members of the same species evolutionarily creates larger animals over time.
Cope's Rule also states that subsequent extinction of the same species is due to the same evolutionary adaptation — a limitation of resources created as larger animals dominate environments and require higher energy consumption. In addition, inevitably extended reproductive cycles made them more susceptible to environmental changes and a concurrent lack of ability for adaptation.
Scientific opposition to Cope's Rule is centered around unexplained lineages that persist in the opposite direction.
Other likely theories for the extinction of these massive prehistoric animals include the negative impact of humans, climatic change, and widespread epidemics.
Never mind of course biblical testimony which addresses an answers this question just fine. The large animals themselves being more evidence backing up scriptural testimonies. The bible speaks of giants and giant creatures, even probably dinosaurs. Moses refers to the giants of the antediluvian world as well. The scriptures themselves also testifying that the world before the flood was very different from this one. These folks are simply among those ever learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth, because they have rejected the truths of scripture, and go about seeking to establish their own "truths". Truths based upon self wisdom as to were. The wisdom of this world.
1Co 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. 20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
https://news.realpressglobal.com/customs-officials-find-giant-snail-fossils-from-late-cretaceous-period-in-the-post/
Add giant snails to the list. Quoted article below from link above.
Customs Officials Find Giant Snail Fossils From Late Cretaceous Period In The Post
This is the moment Chinese customs officials find two incredibly beautiful paleontological fossils from the Late Cretaceous period in the post.
The incident was filmed at Hangzhou International Airport in the city of Hangzhou located in the eastern Chinese province of Zhejiang.
The fossils were of the extinct species Placenticeras meeki, an ammonite species from the Late Cretaceous period.
The giant snail carnivores lived in the oceans between 65 and 400 million years ago.
Customs officials at Hangzhou International Airport said it was the first time they had seized paleontological fossils in the post before.
The two fossil products have been handed over to the anti-smuggling department for investigation.
Customs officials said a company wanted to send a batch of express packages and declared the contents as glass ornaments for home decoration.
However, during the X-ray, officials noticed that the contents appeared different to the declared goods and opened the boxes to inspect them.
They found two colourful disc-shaped fossils that seemed different to typical glass ornaments and suspected they were archaeological.
The two items were later confirmed to be Placenticeras meeki fossils from the Late Cretaceous period.
An investigation was opened after the sender broke Article 33 regarding the transit and protection of archaeological artifacts.
The good side of governments and institutions controlling fossil finds and destinations is the prevention of them just disappearing into private collections. The bad side is them disappearing or being destroyed by said governments or institutions, when they do not fit the narratives being preached by them. Giant fossilized creatures of the past everywhere, which cannot be hidden. Historical reports of giant human bones and fossils from all over the world throughout history, but very few actual fossils, bones, or remains to be seen. Hmmmm? Such could be easily dismissed perhaps, if in fact giant human remains would not be so detrimental to the prevailing narrative of evolution. With cases of fraud and coverups by professed evolutionists revealed in the past, not to mention the ever evolving nature of the theory itself, having proved its own claims wrong many times over already.
Why would governments destroy such revolutionary archeological finds?
: Alan Wed May 11, 2022 - 08:15:09
Why would governments destroy such revolutionary archeological finds?
Really? Is this to say governments are not agenda driven. Is this what the history of this world testifies regarding government control and manipulation?
: Amo Wed May 11, 2022 - 08:13:15
https://news.realpressglobal.com/customs-officials-find-giant-snail-fossils-from-late-cretaceous-period-in-the-post/
Add giant snails to the list. Quoted article below from link above.
The good side of governments and institutions controlling fossil finds and destinations is the prevention of them just disappearing into private collections. The bad side is them disappearing or being destroyed by said governments or institutions, when they do not fit the narratives being preached by them. Giant fossilized creatures of the past everywhere, which cannot be hidden. Historical reports of giant human bones and fossils from all over the world throughout history, but very few actual fossils, bones, or remains to be seen. Hmmmm? Such could be easily dismissed perhaps, if in fact giant human remains would not be so detrimental to the prevailing narrative of evolution. With cases of fraud and coverups by professed evolutionists revealed in the past, not to mention the ever evolving nature of the theory itself, having proved its own claims wrong many times over already.
Amo,
Just a quick question.
You are a creationist believing that it is all covered in the four corners of the bible, is that correct.
Then how do you explain some of the things you post?
Do you think they all roamed the earth pre-flood at some point between "In the beginning" and Noah building that ark?
: Amo Wed May 11, 2022 - 08:17:10
Really? Is this to say governments are not agenda driven. Is this what the history of this world testifies regarding government control and manipulation?
The agenda in this case would be "look what we've found!", being the first to uncover a rare find is something governments strive for, and part of the reason archaeologists still receive limited funding.
https://www.nature.com/articles/4601067b
Article below from link above. Emphasis is mine.
Fossil protection law comes under fire
Palaeontologists aim to clamp down on illegal trade.
Chinese palaeontologists met government officials in Beijing last week to lobby for strict federal control of fossil specimens. The researchers are working to get changes incorporated into a draft law released in March by the Legislative Office of the State Council, which advises China's leaders, and the Ministry of Land and Resources.
As China has experimented with private enterprise, poor farmers have burrowed into hillsides, uncovering fossils from the Cretaceous to the Jurassic that have rewritten the palaeontological literature. With international traders paying tens of thousands of dollars for important finds, provincial officials have fought with the federal government for control over permits to dig and regulate the bounty.
Yet many scientists inside and outside China fear that the proposed federal law may foster the rampant trade in illegal fossil specimens. Zhou Zhonghe, director of the Institute of Vertebrate Paleontology and Paleoanthropology in Beijing, and other researchers have proposed several changes. These would include giving the land and resources ministry authority over vertebrate fossil collections, and setting up a national panel of palaeontologists to regulate the collections on a nationwide level. "I think many of our suggestions will be adopted," Zhou says.
The law isn't expected to be finalized until early next year. The process is being watched closely by researchers worldwide who collaborate with Chinese palaeontologists. "I am in complete support of the Chinese government and academic institutions trying to clarify the laws to protect their tremendous fossil heritage," says palaeontologist Mark Norell of the American Museum of Natural History in New York.
Palaeontologist Gao Keqin, of Peking University, remains deeply concerned. He says that recent versions of the draft law would not prevent provincial officials from blocking research by demanding large sums from scientists.
"The current situation is problematic because local jurisdictions with rightful interests but only a vague understanding of the scientific value of fossils can unilaterally stop legitimate scientific exploration," says James Clark, a palaeontologist at George Washington University in Washington DC.
Many provinces built palaeontological museums in the hope of tapping the tourist trade, but fossil smugglers often use them as a front to buy and sell specimens. "Fossils require an institution with staff educated in curation and preservation," says Clark. "But few places in China have these facilities."
"I hope the new law will let us protect the fossil heritage," says Zhou.
I have already posted somewhere on these boards, about the legal battle Creationist scientists had to fight, in order to have access to certain areas to collect or observe evidence supporting their theory. They were singled out because their observations and conclusions do not go along with the mainstream narratives of evolution. This is a no brainer. People simply do not like to be wrong, or proved wrong. History is filled with attempted coverups concerning a great many things. Government and institutional control have of course been employed for this very purpose time and again. As history also testifies in countless pages, in countless books and articles.
Alan, the government covered up the Ferengi visiting Earth in Roswell New Mexico.
: Rella Wed May 11, 2022 - 08:20:20
Amo,
Just a quick question.
You are a creationist believing that it is all covered in the four corners of the bible, is that correct.
Then how do you explain some of the things you post?
Do you think they all roamed the earth pre-flood at some point between "In the beginning" and Noah building that ark?
They would of course had to have roamed the earth at the times you specified, if scripture be true. Some afterward as well of course, during the devolving processes which have been taking place ever since. Less variety and ability to change, shorter life spans, and smaller creatures altogether, due to those shorter life spans and a very different atmosphere. There is no doubt whatsoever of their existence among Creationists and evolutionists. Plants and animals were simply much larger than at present, and there was much greater variety at some time in the history of this world. That variety continues to diminish to date, as we see many creatures going extinct, but no new ones evolving to replace them.
When these giants and greater variety existed is the issue of divisiveness, and whether humans were larger as well. It seems obvious to me, that this world and the creatures within it are and have been devolving, not evolving. Save certain changes and improvements concerning medical science, germs, and cleanliness perhaps. Variety and size have certainly diminished.
: Texas Conservative Wed May 11, 2022 - 08:42:38
Alan, the government covered up the Ferengi visiting Earth in Roswell New Mexico.
It was Ferengi? The Vulcans claimed they were the first here.
: Amo Wed May 11, 2022 - 08:27:57
https://www.nature.com/articles/4601067b (https://www.nature.com/articles/4601067b)
Article below from link above. Emphasis is mine.
I have already posted somewhere on these boards, about the legal battle Creationist scientists had to fight, in order to have access to certain areas to collect or observe evidence supporting their theory. They were singled out because their observations and conclusions do not go along with the mainstream narratives of evolution. This is a no brainer. People simply do not like to be wrong, or proved wrong. History is filled with attempted coverups concerning a great many things. Government and institutional control have of course been employed for this very purpose time and again. As history also testifies in countless pages, in countless books and articles.
So another conspiracy theory? Got it.
: Alan Wed May 11, 2022 - 08:20:55
The agenda in this case would be "look what we've found!", being the first to uncover a rare find is something governments strive for, and part of the reason archaeologists still receive limited funding.
The agendas would vary from place to place and peoples to peoples no doubt, as history testifies as well. Governments are simply people in control. Either by the will of those they control, or not. Those people are just as likely to be agenda driven as any of us. I'm not talking about theory here, I'm talking about historically established facts of government agenda driven control and abuse the world over. Not to mention the sinful human desire to control and manipulate which all must deal with and overcome according as the scriptures teach. Cain killed Abel for a reason, and such has been going on ever since.
: Alan Wed May 11, 2022 - 08:49:25
So another conspiracy theory? Got it.
You best be believing in conspiracy theories Alan, you're living in one. Read your bible. This planet is absolutely filled with lies and liars. Who have, do, and will continue to even kill large scale to support those lies. As has been demonstrated over and again, and recorded in one history book after another, after another, after another and so on, and so on, and so on. Conspiracy theory my big old hairy but. This world is filled with evil, and proved itself to be, time, and time, and time, and time again. Just as the scriptures teach and prophesy.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me,
It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
: Texas Conservative Wed May 11, 2022 - 08:42:38
Alan, the government covered up the Ferengi visiting Earth in Roswell New Mexico.
rofl rofl rofl
May the farce be with you!
: Alan Wed May 11, 2022 - 08:48:32
It was Ferengi? The Vulcans claimed they were the first here.
No, Ferengi came in 1947
: Texas Conservative Wed May 11, 2022 - 13:07:23
No, Ferengi came in 1947
Here is proof: One of them ran for Prez:
(https://www.ft.com/__origami/service/image/v2/images/raw/http%3A%2F%2Fprod-upp-image-read.ft.com%2F807338cc-a265-11e9-a282-2df48f366f7d?source=next-opengraph&fit=scale-down&width=900)
Vulcans first came to Earth in 1957 in Carbon Creek, Pennsylvania not too far from Rella.
: Texas Conservative Wed May 11, 2022 - 14:47:43
Vulcans first came to Earth in 1957 in Carbon Creek, Pennsylvania not too far from Rella.
::doh::
My kin. Just outside Pennsyltucky.
: Texas Conservative Wed May 11, 2022 - 14:47:43
Vulcans first came to Earth in 1957 in Carbon Creek, Pennsylvania not too far from Rella.
One of them fell in love with an earth girl and refused to return to Vulcan, IIRC.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEXM4dtdW6k
They admit the above topic of the short video is scientific in nature. So why can't they admit that the abundant evidence all over the planet of a probable global flood is scientific in nature as well?
: Amo Sat May 14, 2022 - 06:59:35
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEXM4dtdW6k
They admit the above topic of the short video is scientific in nature. So why can't they admit that the abundant evidence all over the planet of a probable global flood is scientific in nature as well?
A probably global flood as explained in the bible, could only have been achieved by God.
Even a partial (I say that for those who say it was only regional) also could only have been achieved by God and that is still a taboo concept.
We know there have been ic ages and warm ups globally as well as regionally since earth began.
But they cannot admit that either cause they would have been arranged by God within His plans.
: Rella Sat May 14, 2022 - 13:35:06
A probably global flood as explained in the bible, could only have been achieved by God.
Even a partial (I say that for those who say it was only regional) also could only have been achieved by God and that is still a taboo concept.
We know there have been ic ages and warm ups globally as well as regionally since earth began.
But they cannot admit that either cause they would have been arranged by God within His plans.
Exactly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZB6MDE_pE1g&t=1154s
Another Mystery History video questioning prevailing narratives of history and rightly so. In the first structure the video examines, one can easily see that the first two door ways shown were much larger and higher at one time. The top of the first one being filled in up to the same height of the hall it enters into and the one right adjacent to it. The second doorway with a man standing in it, has the top of an arch above the stone over him, that was no doubt the top of that entrance in the original structure. The structure has been built upon and altered by less technically advanced peoples later in time. Such evidence is found the world over. Higher tech. further back on time. Just the opposite of the present prevailing narrative of course.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gr_mrZbke74
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raxbL3Tiy3w
More about footprints.
I believe the human footprints at Glenrose are real. I've been there several times since the 70's and saw them. No question in my mind.
IMO the entire argument against the proof or lack there of Giant anything is silly.
We have mention in the Holy Scriptures of Giants,
Noting that one must believe that scriptures are yet we also have those that will go above and beyond to explain that scriptures are inspired by God, are without error, and do not misrepresent the facts.
And for those things that would question the facts of truth we are told, with certain understanding that such is a parable.
But, too many today lack the ability to believe that with God all things are and were possible and they prefer to place their own understanding upon what another would see differently.
I certainly do believe that at one point there were giants on the earth.
Why would there not be when there were giant animals in the form of dinosaurs and giant trees in the form of the Califoria Redwood ( to name one)
Does that mean that goes against God as the creator of all? Certainly not.
: Jaime Sat Jul 23, 2022 - 16:39:17
I believe the human footprints at Glenrose are real. I've been there several times since the 70's and saw them. No question in my mind.
Never had the privilege of seeing one on site. One video I watched quite a while back, said that an evolutionist had destroyed the foot prints, or at least some of them. That would be a shame.
: Rella Sun Jul 24, 2022 - 08:48:26
IMO the entire argument against the proof or lack there of Giant anything is silly.
We have mention in the Holy Scriptures of Giants,
Noting that one must believe that scriptures are yet we also have those that will go above and beyond to explain that scriptures are inspired by God, are without error, and do not misrepresent the facts.
And for those things that would question the facts of truth we are told, with certain understanding that such is a parable.
But, too many today lack the ability to believe that with God all things are and were possible and they prefer to place their own understanding upon what another would see differently.
I certainly do believe that at one point there were giants on the earth.
Why would there not be when there were giant animals in the form of dinosaurs and giant trees in the form of the Califoria Redwood ( to name one)
Does that mean that goes against God as the creator of all? Certainly not.
I think if there were half the Creationists out there with half the monies and government or institutional grants which evolutionists have, we would be seeing and hearing a lot more about the abundance of evidence still buried or even exposed around the world. Not to mention that which is presently intentionally overlooked by those of another narrative, who simply do not want to see that which does not support their own. Or what has been covered up intentionally.
: Amo Tue Jul 26, 2022 - 15:59:41
I think if there were half the Creationists out there with half the monies and government or institutional grants which evolutionists have, we would be seeing and hearing a lot more about the abundance of evidence still buried or even exposed around the world. Not to mention that which is presently intentionally overlooked by those of another narrative, who simply do not want to see that which does not support their own. Or what has been covered up intentionally.
The key words in that statement are "I think". The problem in this case is that you really don't. There are a lot of "creationists" out there who do not agree with your interpretation of scripture.
: 4WD Wed Jul 27, 2022 - 07:02:23
The key words in that statement are "I think". The problem in this case is that you really don't. There are a lot of "creationists" out there who do not agree with your interpretation of scripture.
No denying that. Apart from the many "Christian" or "Jewish" creationists which believe the bible does not mean what it simply states regarding the creation, there are many of other religions with very different ideas about creation as well. I of course am referring to those bible believers which take the biblical account for what it simply states.
Your point however, only validates my own. Pointing out a larger number of people looking at the same evidence in a very different way unto different application, than bible creationists of the more literal interprative perspective.
https://www.livescience.com/13340-giant-rabbit-fossils-minorca-island.html
Giant Rabbits.
https://www.ontariobeneathourfeet.com/giant-beaver
Giant Beavers.
https://www.livescience.com/48304-hopless-extinct-kangaroos.html
Giant Kangaroos.
https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/titanoboa-all-about-giant-extinct-snake-species-made-famous-by-internet-2854878
Giant snakes.
https://theconversation.com/gigantic-wolverines-otters-the-size-of-wolves-fossils-offer-fresh-insights-into-the-past-140752
Giant wolverines and otters.
https://www.scimex.org/newsfeed/its-rhi-normous-new-giant-rhino-species-discovered
Giant rhinos.
https://www.outdoorhub.com/stories/2015/11/02/five-prehistoric-bear-species-mop-floor-modern-bears/
Giant bears.
https://ieltsquangbinh.com/extinct-the-giant-deer/
Giant deer.
https://www.toptenz.net/10-horrific-extinct-monster-birds.php
Giant birds.
https://www.grunge.com/463093/giant-prehistoric-insects-that-no-longer-exist/
Giant bugs.
https://www.sciencealert.com/this-giant-severed-wolf-head-from-40-000-years-ago-was-unearthed-in-siberia
Giant wolves.
https://www.historicmysteries.com/aurochs/
Giant bovine.
https://listverse.com/2010/12/02/10-huge-prehistoric-cats/
Giant cats.
https://www.livescience.com/56797-hell-pigs-entelodonts.html
Giant pigs.
Kind of looks like there is an observable trend of larger life forms further back in time. One would think such would lend credence to the very many reports of giant humans in the past as well. Yet very many will not go there. I'll continue supplying evidence for that trend later.
From just a couple of the articles you posted
: Amo Sun Aug 07, 2022 - 06:09:34
https://www.livescience.com/56797-hell-pigs-entelodonts.html
Giant pigs.
From the link you posted:
Entelodonts were among the earliest of the pig-like lineages, known from the early to middle Eocene (c. 50 million years ago), according to Kenneth T. Wilkins, associate dean for sciences at Baylor University, Waco, Texas.
: Amo Sun Aug 07, 2022 - 06:03:27
https://www.sciencealert.com/this-giant-severed-wolf-head-from-40-000-years-ago-was-unearthed-in-siberia
Giant wolves.
From the article:
This Giant Severed Wolf Head From 40,000 Years Ago Was Unearthed in Siberia[/size]
Just curious why you would post what you obviously don't believe is true.
: 4WD Sun Aug 07, 2022 - 07:35:07
From just a couple of the articles you posted
From the link you posted:
From the article:
Just curious why you would post what you obviously don't believe is true.
The remains of the giant animals are the observable facts. The millions of years or thousands of years are the more faith based portions of both creationism and evolution. We see the remains before us. None of us see or saw when or what exactly happened or how long it took. The differing narratives concerning how and how long ago, are the differing faiths regarding the same.
Did those animals actually live or did God simply put those fossilized remains there when He created the world about 6000 years ago as YECs have postulated?
: 4WD Sun Aug 07, 2022 - 14:45:46
Did those animals actually live or did God simply put those fossilized remains there when He created the world about 6000 years ago as YECs have postulated?
I've never heard that about fossilized remains.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TnzM_Lvrsc
Ruins from the flood the world over.
: 4WD Sun Aug 07, 2022 - 14:45:46Did those animals actually live or did God simply put those fossilized remains there when He created the world about 6000 years ago as YECs have postulated?
I have heard some claim that the devil made up all the fossils to distract us. God had nothing to do with it.
God gave Satan that kind of power??
: 4WD Wed Aug 10, 2022 - 05:58:07
God gave Satan that kind of power??
Bible never says one way or the other. So we just do not know.
If it was important for us to walk our lives in HIS ways, He would have told us.
It is interesting that we seem to come down frequently to the paradox of the bible giving a timeframe for creation being about 6000 years ago while scientific records seem to indicate the age of the world is in the billions of years.
The week before last, the Chabad (chassidic Judaism) commentary on the end reading of the book of Numbers talked about contradictions and paradoxes. Unlike some forms of Christianity which has to have everything locked into a rigid framework, Judaism thrives on contradictions and paradoxes. An old joke about a Jew who tells his rabbi he finally figured out the answers to all of the questions. The shocked rabbi then starts hitting him over the head with a book and screams at him "Don't you know the questions are much more important than the answers?"
From the Chabad commentary on Parshat Matot-Massei:
Beyond Paradox
The Amidah (central prayer of the Jewish service - very long) embodies a paradox. On the one hand we abandon our ego and become a mere mouthpiece for the words of G-d. On the other hand, it is a prayer of requests for the satisfaction of our spiritual and material needs. And yet surely it is just at this point of selflessness that we forget our needs and are unconcerned with our welfare.
These two aspects of the Amidah are indeed opposed. But it is only reason and logic that cannot tolerate the joining of two opposites. The Amidah is a level of spirituality beyond the reach of reason. The nearer we reach to G-d, the more all opposites can be accommodated, all tensions dissolved. We say, "He who makes peace in His high places," for it is in the heights beyond reason that there is peace between contending parties, and compatibility amongst opposites. In this respect, the Amidah is a foretaste of the future world, when "all flesh shall see" the presence of G-d, when—in other words—the opposites of substance and spirit will be interfused.
: DaveW Wed Aug 10, 2022 - 11:06:59
It is interesting that we seem to come down frequently to the paradox of the bible giving a timeframe for creation being about 6000 years ago while scientific records seem to indicate the age of the world is in the billions of years.
That is not really a paradox. One, the age of billions of years is based upon quantifiable data; the other, the age of about 6000 years is based upon an interpretation of essentially a single Hebrew word.
It is of interest that, with Einstein's Relativity and the expansion of the universe, it can be shown that from the beginning looking forward the actual time of six 24-hour days can be actually equated with the time looking backward from man's creation as about 14 billion years. So it is not a paradox, it is simply observing from two different frames of reference. This is the same reason that time on the surface of the earth moves more slowly than time in space above the earth; and it is the same reason that time in the midst of a black hole has nearly come to a complete stop.
: 4WD Wed Aug 10, 2022 - 12:05:45
That is not really a paradox. One, the age of billions of years is based upon quantifiable data; the other, the age of about 6000 years is based upon an interpretation of essentially a single Hebrew word.
It is of interest that, with Einstein's Relativity and the expansion of the universe, it can be shown that from the beginning looking forward the actual time of six 24-hour days can be actually equated with the time looking backward from man's creation as about 14 billion years. So it is not a paradox, it is simply observing from two different frames of reference. This is the same reason that time on the surface of the earth moves more slowly than time in space above the earth; and it is the same reason that time in the midst of a black hole has nearly come to a complete stop.
Okay.
Then can you explain... via Einstein or something else why ... when it is traced backwards... that we have that 6000 to 8000 ( give or take) from us back to Adam?
: Amo Sun Aug 07, 2022 - 05:40:27
Giant wolverines and otters.
How I envision Amo:
(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/86402942.jpg)
: 4WD Wed Aug 10, 2022 - 12:05:45
That is not really a paradox. One, the age of billions of years is based upon quantifiable data; the other, the age of about 6000 years is based upon an interpretation of essentially a single Hebrew word.
Quantifiable yes, verifiable - no.
: Rella Wed Aug 10, 2022 - 16:05:06Okay.
Then can you explain... via Einstein or something else why ... when it is traced backwards... that we have that 6000 to 8000 ( give or take) from us back to Adam?
Because it has been 6000 to 8000 years from us back to Adam. I know that doesn't really answer the question that you have, but that is what I believe. I believe that Adam was the first human being, but I don't believe he was the first homo erectus, the first upright humanoid. But once again, that is quite beyond the Topic.
: Texas Conservative Wed Aug 10, 2022 - 19:18:00
Quantifiable yes, verifiable - no.
To a real degree, data is data. After that it depends upon what you do with that data.
: 4WD Wed Aug 10, 2022 - 19:27:16
Because it has been 6000 to 8000 years from us back to Adam. I know that doesn't really answer the question that you have, but that is what I believe. I believe that Adam was the first human being, but I don't believe he was the first homo erectus, the first upright humanoid. But once again, that is quite beyond the Topic.
No it is not beyond the topic. It hits the nail as squarely as it can. For we have no way of knowing at what point any giant may have been on the earth... other then the biblical mentions, and we have no way of knowing if what you believe were the first were normal sized ( like we consider ourselves to be) or larger species.
We actually semi-agree when you say " I believe that Adam was the first human being, but I don't believe he was the first homo erectus, the first upright humanoid "
I say semi as I am not sure I agree with your terming them " the first homo erectus, the first upright humanoid.
But am certain that Gen one fairly describes something other then Adam that was given ( or programmed) instructions by God,
before he formed Adam.
That also allows for the the earth being far older then the 6,000... or 8,000 or even 14,000 years that others have claimed on here.
But to date... can it be proved biblically?
I think it can to those who will study and read with an open mind.....
: Texas Conservative Wed Aug 10, 2022 - 19:18:00
Quantifiable yes, verifiable - no.
Because science is constantly improving, I can see maybe a +/- 10% allowance in the current data set, but certainly nothing that would resemble a 13,780,000,000 year error.
: Alan Thu Aug 11, 2022 - 18:02:14
Because science is constantly improving, I can see maybe a +/- 10% allowance in the current data set, but certainly nothing that would resemble a 13,780,000,000 year error.
I thought the current age of the earth was thought to be somewhere around 4.5 billion years and the Universe is 13.7 billion.
Anyway, I wouldn't make a guess on allowances. We are very, very early into modern science. At some point in a few hundred years if humans are going forward and Jesus has not yet returned, they may look at our understandings of many things now scientifically, the way we view those in the dark ages.
: Texas Conservative Thu Aug 11, 2022 - 20:14:05
At some point in a few hundred years if humans are going forward and Jesus has not yet returned, they may look at our understandings of many things now scientifically, the way we view those in the dark ages.
Science in the Dark Ages? ::headscratch::
They're called the Dark Ages because they lack science. The Dark Ages are what happens when the church decides it knows everything and suppresses attempts to discover anything new.
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Wed Aug 10, 2022 - 17:55:36
How I envision Amo:
(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/86402942.jpg)
Lose the silly hair on his head, no Einstein wannabe complex here. Cut my own hair about every two weeks to the length left, maybe a 16th of an inch, with my WAHL hair cutters. Make the hair white, add quite a bit more body and thickness to my mustache and goatee, lose the suit, and add thirty some odd years. Rounder head, and very different face. Apparently, I wouldn't be at all what you expected if we met.
: 4WD Wed Aug 10, 2022 - 12:05:45
That is not really a paradox. One, the age of billions of years is based upon quantifiable data; the other, the age of about 6000 years is based upon an interpretation of essentially a single Hebrew word.
It is of interest that, with Einstein's Relativity and the expansion of the universe, it can be shown that from the beginning looking forward the actual time of six 24-hour days can be actually equated with the time looking backward from man's creation as about 14 billion years. So it is not a paradox, it is simply observing from two different frames of reference. This is the same reason that time on the surface of the earth moves more slowly than time in space above the earth; and it is the same reason that time in the midst of a black hole has nearly come to a complete stop.
You have no idea what time or anything else does in what we call a black hole, just like the rest of us. Our perceptions and imaginings regarding what we can see and observe of what is, are so very limited from within the box God keeps us in. Separated from Him and all other creation as we are. The vain imaginings of fallen humanity regarding what they deem to be "science" so called, reach no further than our very limited minds, power of observation, and reality allow for. Only the willingly ignorant think they can or have figured out what is and why, when they don't even have access to, or any real idea of what actually is. Why will we compare ourselves to God, regarding whom, we know not even a fraction of what is? Therefore by extension as well, only a fraction at best of what actually exists in relation to Him as well.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.Isa 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. 2 Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness. 3
Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David. 4 Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people. 5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee. 6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
The thoughts and imaginations of fallen humanities "sciences" so called apart from holy scripture, are not God's thoughts or ways. They are infinitely lower among the dregs of deception.
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.Psa 119:113 SAMECH.
I hate vain thoughts: but thy law do I love. 114 Thou art my hiding place and my shield: I hope in thy word. 115 Depart from me, ye evildoers:
for I will keep the commandments of my God. 116 Uphold me according unto thy word, that I may live: and let me not be ashamed of my hope. 117 Hold thou me up, and I shall be safe: and I will have respect unto thy statutes continually. 118
Thou hast trodden down all them that err from thy statutes: for their deceit is falsehood. 119 Thou puttest away all the wicked of the earth like dross: therefore I love thy testimonies. 120 My flesh trembleth for fear of thee; and I am afraid of thy judgments. 121 AIN. I have done judgment and justice: leave me not to mine oppressors. 122 Be surety for thy servant for good: let not the proud oppress me. 123 Mine eyes fail for thy salvation, and for the word of thy righteousness. 124 Deal with thy servant according unto thy mercy, and teach me thy statutes. 125 I am thy servant; give me understanding, that I may know thy testimonies. 126
It is time for thee, LORD, to work: for they have made void thy law.While the law cannot save, it will most certainly destroy all who reject its authority and truth. None but those who believe the commandments of God, and seek the salvation offered by God for breaking them as all have, shall be saved in Christ Jesus our Lord. All would do well to read and heed all of Pslams 119. God spoke His commandments directly to humanity in the entire nation of Israel, and wrote them in tables of stone twice for us as well. They are the truth and righteousness of God Almighty. None who reject them or the steadfast truths they proclaim, will enter the kingdom of heaven. The so called "sciences" of humanity often preach directly against the truths uttered by God Himself in His Ten Commandments. This will not end well for those who choose to believe the testimony of these sciences so called, above the plain, simple, yet all powerful testimony of the law of God. How will one seek to keep a commandment of God, which they do not even believe? They will not, because they cannot.
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
The commandments of God are just that. They are not a recommendation, they are the bottom line basic standard of the truth and righteousness of God. All who reject them or any part of them, reject God in doing so. They will not have a right to the tree of life, or be allowed to enter through the gates into the city. This is a very significant point which all should consider.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth,
and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
May God grant us all, the privilege of being inside the city at the above prophesied time.
: Amo Sat Aug 13, 2022 - 02:15:07
You have no idea what time or anything else does in what we call a black hole, just like the rest of us. Our perceptions and imaginings regarding what we can see and observe of what is, are so very limited from within the box God keeps us in. Separated from Him and all other creation as we are. The vain imaginings of fallen humanity regarding what they deem to be "science" so called, reach no further than our very limited minds, power of observation, and reality allow for. Only the willingly ignorant think they can or have figured out what is and why, when they don't even have access to, or any real idea of what actually is. Why will we compare ourselves to God, regarding whom, we know not even a fraction of what is? Therefore by extension as well, only a fraction at best of what actually exists in relation to Him as well.
Thank you, Amo, for that excellent presentation of your absolute ignorance of any and all science. That you would enter any discussion involving any science is mind boggling.
: AmoThe thoughts and imaginations of fallen humanities "sciences" so called apart from holy scripture, are not God's thoughts or ways.
God's thoughts or ways concerning fallen humanities "sciences" is not really a subject that God has addressed in the Holy Scriptures. So you really don't know whether or not such thoughts and imaginations are His thoughts and ways.
: AmoThe so called "sciences" of humanity often preach directly against the truths uttered by God Himself in His Ten Commandments.
First, "sciences" don't preach anything. Second, none of the so-called "sciences" preach directly or indirectly against the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments are not the subject of science in any sense whatever.
: 4WD Sat Aug 13, 2022 - 05:48:02
Thank you, Amo, for that excellent presentation of your absolute ignorance of any and all science. That you would enter any discussion involving any science is mind boggling. God's thoughts or ways concerning fallen humanities "sciences" is not really a subject that God has addressed in the Holy Scriptures. So you really don't know whether or not such thoughts and imaginations are His thoughts and ways.First, "sciences" don't preach anything. Second, none of the so-called "sciences" preach directly or indirectly against the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments are not the subject of science in any sense whatever.
Thank you 4WD, for those words of wisdom from one who knows what goes on inside black holes. Your wisdom knows no end. Of course the scriptures do not address the vanity of fallen humanities imaginations, 4WD said so. The matter is resolved. So be it. Time to move on.
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Fri Aug 12, 2022 - 11:10:16
Science in the Dark Ages? ::headscratch::
They're called the Dark Ages because they lack science. The Dark Ages are what happens when the church decides it knows everything and suppresses attempts to discover anything new.
I never mentioned "science in the dark ages." I mentioned how those a few hundred years might look at what we believe now as though we were in the dark ages.
: Amo Sat Aug 13, 2022 - 02:15:07
You have no idea what time or anything else does in what we call a black hole....
We have pretty good idea about time just outside of a black hole near the event horizon. Measuring time from the outside it appears to pass slower and slower for any item as it approaches the black hole.
https://askanastronomer.org/bhc/2016/01/19/time-inside-black-hole/
If a clock could survive in a black hole, would time stand still inside the black hole? What would space-time be like?
The answer is kind of boring since we do not have physics to describe the inside of black holes, the official answer is "we don't know". We can speculate given what happens right at the edge of the black hole though.
The first thing to state is: who (i.e., which observer) is asking? If the person asking is standing outside the black hole looking at a clock falling towards the event horizon, then the clock appears to move slower as it approaches the black hole... and actually, it would never fall inside the black hole because time gets infinitely slow at the event horizon. If the person asking is attached to the clock, then everything looks normal, time runs normally. Actually, general relativity says that the event horizon can be crossed and time would keep running exactly in the same way.
General relativity also says that the density of the black hole is infinite because its volume is formally zero – it is a singularity. For a static black hole, the singularity is a point, while for a rotating black hole, it is a ring, but still with zero volume. The thing is, quantum physics does not allow such precise numbers, so there must be something else actually happening there, but we still don't have the physics to describe such a state.
Dr. Eva Noyola
UT Austin
: 4WD Mon Aug 15, 2022 - 11:43:12
We have pretty good idea about time just outside of a black hole near the event horizon. Measuring time from the outside it appears to pass slower and slower for any item as it approaches the black hole.
https://askanastronomer.org/bhc/2016/01/19/time-inside-black-hole/
If a clock could survive in a black hole, would time stand still inside the black hole? What would space-time be like?
The answer is kind of boring since we do not have physics to describe the inside of black holes, the official answer is "we don't know". We can speculate given what happens right at the edge of the black hole though.
The first thing to state is: who (i.e., which observer) is asking? If the person asking is standing outside the black hole looking at a clock falling towards the event horizon, then the clock appears to move slower as it approaches the black hole... and actually, it would never fall inside the black hole because time gets infinitely slow at the event horizon. If the person asking is attached to the clock, then everything looks normal, time runs normally. Actually, general relativity says that the event horizon can be crossed and time would keep running exactly in the same way.
General relativity also says that the density of the black hole is infinite because its volume is formally zero – it is a singularity. For a static black hole, the singularity is a point, while for a rotating black hole, it is a ring, but still with zero volume. The thing is, quantum physics does not allow such precise numbers, so there must be something else actually happening there, but we still don't have the physics to describe such a state.
Dr. Eva Noyola
UT Austin
I'll just stick to the frank admission above as in "we don't know". "Scientists" have and do continue to be wrong about things right here in front of their faces, making corrections time and again, let alone concerting such as black holes far beyond our present reach.
: Amo Mon Aug 15, 2022 - 12:28:38
"Scientists" have and do continue to be wrong about things right here in front of their faces...
....as do so many self-proclaiming authorities (like you} about things in God's word.
: Amo Mon Aug 15, 2022 - 12:28:38
I'll just stick to the frank admission above as in "we don't know". "Scientists" have and do continue to be wrong about things right here in front of their faces, making corrections time and again, let alone concerting such as black holes far beyond our present reach.
You're not entirely wrong. Science is often a work in progress, but by no means is it on the side of error that would result in YEC claims being correct.
: Alan Mon Aug 15, 2022 - 20:20:28
but by no means is it on the side of error that would result in YEC claims being correct.
While I tend to agree with you somewhat... the result... from science.... would not necessarily result in YEC claims being wrong.
YEC creation people generally live their lives in faith and belief that all that is needed for their point of view is the Holy Bible.
Science usually cannot provide concrete evidence that YEC is wrong because they live their lives in speculation.
NO... I do not think I am wrong.
I am one of the inbetweens. Knowing the Holy Words are accurate as far as the translators can be believed, but seeing things the translators translated as indicating they either missed something correctly either by misunderstanding Divine Inspiration or because Divine Inspiration either felt it not necessary to be so specific ( as to confuse the people or it not being needed for the message and teachings within the 4 courners of the Holy Bible.)
I personally have not question that there were giants on the earth at some point (That is biblical) And very large animals.
What I have trouble with is why there are scant few skeletal remain from the animals and hardly any for the people.
I have difficulty with them dating the age of the earth and then they tell us that the earth is younger then the Universe.
All the while expounding on their "big bang" stuff.
Could earth be younger. Certainly... but then that gets closer to my beliefs for the reason why ::tippinghat::
Well... I have said enough
Just know that science is obviously more wrong then right. When they spout off with their ideas of everything but cannot even come up with medial helps for things like Covid and such... either to wipe it out or to actually immunize people against they just are guessing
Science has no interest in what YEC pseudo-science says, and yes, with very little effort most of the bizarre claims of YEC can be easily dismissed.
: Rella Tue Aug 16, 2022 - 07:01:18
YEC creation people generally live their lives in faith and belief that all that is needed for their point of view is the Holy Bible.
It took you only 2 sentences to identify their error. You are far ahead of Amo and the answers-in-Genesis crowd.
: Rella Tue Aug 16, 2022 - 07:01:18
Science usually cannot provide concrete evidence that YEC is wrong because they live their lives in speculation.
No. Don't buy into the spin put out by the YEC crowd. What is labeled a
theory in science is
not speculative, but something well-established logically and well-tested. It is the second-highest level of certitude that science awards. Science is not about speculation; it is about testing to prove/disprove.
: Rella Tue Aug 16, 2022 - 07:01:18
I personally have not question that there were giants on the earth at some point (That is biblical) And very large animals.
What I have trouble with is why there are scant few skeletal remain from the animals and hardly any for the people.
I think science and the Bible agree on very large animals. As for giants, that is probably a question of the frame-of-reference. People have been getting taller throughout history due to improving nutrition. A giant 3000 years ago may have been someone six and a half feet tall.
: Rella Tue Aug 16, 2022 - 07:01:18
Just know that science is obviously more wrong then right. When they spout off with their ideas of everything but cannot even come up with medial helps for things like Covid and such... either to wipe it out or to actually immunize people against they just are guessing.
That's not inability; it's malevolence. The pharmaceutical industry engineered and propagated a home-made virus, just so that they could sell a therapeutic medicine while advertising it as a vaccine. That's a high degree of ability, just used for bad instead of good.
Jarrod
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Tue Aug 16, 2022 - 21:11:30
It took you only 2 sentences to identify their error. You are far ahead of Amo and the answers-in-Genesis crowd.
No. Don't buy into the spin put out by the YEC crowd. What is labeled a theory in science is not speculative, but something well-established logically and well-tested. It is the second-highest level of certitude that science awards. Science is not about speculation; it is about testing to prove/disprove.
By what are you claiming well tested of things that have no true time reference that we can count on from the Holy Scriptures
and Genesis 2. Yes I skipped Genesis 1 completely and I start my biblical time line with Adam being formed of God.Are you basing things on things like... carbon dating, for simplicity... because that has gone from being the end all that is all to other things they claim are better or it is not viable. ( no... I dont want to get into that cause I admittedly am not up to speed with things like dating that I was 20 years ago)I think science and the Bible agree on very large animals. As for giants, that is probably a question of the frame-of-reference. People have been getting taller throughout history due to improving nutrition. A giant 3000 years ago may have been someone six and a half feet tall.
Question. Do you think the Holy Bible, when inspired,... for I am not convinced every word was... and certainly not the sentence and grammar construction... but when it truly was inspired was actually the words or thoughts from God to the scribes, or do you think a thought came to their minds ( much like a vision or dream) and they interpreted what they felt to be correct?We are told
Deuteronomy 1:28
28 Where can we go? Our brothers have made our hearts melt in fear. They say, 'The people are stronger and taller than we are; the cities are large, with walls up to the sky. We even saw the Anakites there.' "
Deuteronomy 3:11
11 (Og king of Bashan was the last of the Rephaites. His bed was decorated with iron and was more than nine cubits long and four cubits wide. It is still in Rabbah of the Ammonites.)
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Tue Aug 16, 2022 - 21:11:30
That's not inability; it's malevolence. The pharmaceutical industry engineered and propagated a home-made virus, just so that they could sell a therapeutic medicine while advertising it as a vaccine. That's a high degree of ability, just used for bad instead of good.
Isaiah 40:22
22 He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.
Numbers 13:33
33 We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them."
Deuteronomy 2:10-12
10 (The Emites used to live there—a people strong and numerous, and as tall as the Anakites.
So you feel these larger people are just taller but not giants?
Consider this and I shall stop.[/size]
When God talked to Moses
21 And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
I envision a very large singular hand that could shield Moses..... Far larger then a normal man.
God may be a giant Himself. Also and this will bring the comments I know but the man and woman in Genesis 1 may have been made larger then Adam, for a different purpose.
: Rella Wed Aug 17, 2022 - 15:18:46
By what are you claiming well tested of things that have no true time reference that we can count on from the Holy Scriptures
and Genesis 2. Yes I skipped Genesis 1 completely and I start my biblical time line with Adam being formed of God.
Are you basing things on things like... carbon dating, for simplicity... because that has gone from being the end all that is all to other things they claim are better or it is not viable. ( no... I dont want to get into that cause I admittedly am not up to speed with things like dating that I was 20 years ago)
I don't want to get into that either. I'm not a scientist.
But even I know, a scientific theory isn't some schmuck's guess that he scribbled on the bathroom stall (i.e. on the Internet). It's a sourced scholarly article with citations that is peer-reviewed before being published.
: Rella Wed Aug 17, 2022 - 15:18:46
Question. Do you think the Holy Bible, when inspired,... for I am not convinced every word was... and certainly not the sentence and grammar construction... but when it truly was inspired was actually the words or thoughts from God to the scribes, or do you think a thought came to their minds ( much like a vision or dream) and they interpreted what they felt to be correct?
Some of both. I think the Bible does a fair job of telling us who is speaking. When God is speaking, the text introduces it as God speaking. Other times, it introduces it as "the Word of the Lord by the prophet Daniel (or whoever)." And other times, it does neither and just reads as history, which is to say it isn't inspired.
: Rella Wed Aug 17, 2022 - 15:18:46
We are told
Deuteronomy 1:28
28 Where can we go? Our brothers have made our hearts melt in fear. They say, 'The people are stronger and taller than we are; the cities are large, with walls up to the sky. We even saw the Anakites there.' "
Deuteronomy 3:11
11 (Og king of Bashan was the last of the Rephaites. His bed was decorated with iron and was more than nine cubits long and four cubits wide. It is still in Rabbah of the Ammonites.)
Yes. But those "walls up to the sky" still exist as mounds being excavated by archaeologists, and we know they were only 30-ish feet tall. And a cubit is measured from the fingertips to the elbow, so its significantly smaller for someone who's 5'2" than someone who's 6'6".
: Rella Wed Aug 17, 2022 - 15:18:46
Isaiah 40:22
22 He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.
Numbers 13:33
33 We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them."
Deuteronomy 2:10-12
10 (The Emites used to live there—a people strong and numerous, and as tall as the Anakites.
So you feel these larger people are just taller but not giants?
"People who are bigger" is the definition of a giant. Is Shaq a giant? I'd say yes. They don't need to be 15' tall to be giants.
Jarrod
In the end, all science so called, and scientists who have contradicted the word of God, will bend the knee and confess their sin in placing their own vain imaginations above the word of God. All those who have declared the evidences presented by bible believers backing up the bibles account of creation and the global flood to be false, pseudo, or non science, will confess their guilt for doing so before God and all humanity.
All sciences so called which contradict a plain thus saith the Lord, will be proved to be the deception and vain imaginings of fallen humanity which they are. Those who have claimed to be these "authorities of truth", will be revealed as the ignorant, self important impostures of deception that they are.
Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
The word of God is living and active, it accomplishes that which God pleases. At Creation it accomplished what God spoke, as testified in six days. As God Himself testified again in word from His own mouth and written twice with His own finger in tables of stone, to the entire nation of Israel. God does not lie, or tell exaggerating stories, and command everyone to believe and be obedient to such. People do lie, and tell exaggerated stories to exalt themselves. The theory of deep time evolution is one of those lies, which sets it's believers up above the word and testimony of God Himself. A very dangerous habit. Worse yet, those who believe it claim that those who believe God's word, cannot even begin to be considered people of science. That is proponents of factual observable truth.
Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabitants of earth.
Rev 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound. 7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. 8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; 9 and the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed. 10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; 11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter. 12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise. 13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!
Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. 3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. 5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. 6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them. 7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. 8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. 9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. 10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. 11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. 12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter. 13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. 15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men. 16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them. 17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone. 18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. 19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt. 20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: 21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
Rev 10:1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: 2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, 3 And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. 4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not. 5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, 6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: 7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. 8 And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth. 9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey. 10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter. 11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings..................
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
What is the ark of God's testament in the temple of God?
Exo 25:16 And thou shalt put into the ark the testimony which I shall give thee. 17 And thou shalt make a mercy seat of pure gold: two cubits and a half shall be the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof. 18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat. 19 And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof. 20 And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be. 21 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee. 22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.
Deu 10:1 At that time the LORD said unto me, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first, and come up unto me into the mount, and make thee an ark of wood. 2 And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables which thou brakest, and thou shalt put them in the ark. 3 And I made an ark of shittim wood, and hewed two tables of stone like unto the first, and went up into the mount, having the two tables in mine hand. 4 And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me. 5 And I turned myself and came down from the mount, and put the tables in the ark which I had made; and there they be, as the LORD commanded me.
The ark of the testament or testimony contains the Ten commandments of God. By which all of humanity shall be judged. All who reject the truth or authority of any of those commandments, shall be condemned by them. Including the fourth, which the world and even most of "Christianty" rejects today. Rejecting both the truth and authority of the same. These words spoken by the mouth of God Himself and written with His own finger for humanity. The theory of deep time evolution is a false religion and intellectual idol of fallen humanities vain imaginnings. It's false tree of life is just that. It's end is death, not life. Those who submit to this false tree of life deception in place of the commandments or fourth commandment of God, will have no right to the true tree of life in heaven unto eternal life.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
: Amo Fri Aug 19, 2022 - 10:01:24All sciences so called which contradict a plain thus saith the Lord, will be proved to be the deception and vain imaginings of fallen humanity which they are. Those who have claimed to be these "authorities of truth", will be revealed as the ignorant, self important impostures of deception that they are.
All theologies so called which contradict a plain thus saith the Lord, will be proved to be the deception and vain imaginings of fallen humanity which they are. Those who have claimed to be these "authorities of truth", will be revealed as the ignorant, self important impostures of deception that they are.
: 4WD Fri Aug 19, 2022 - 12:32:00
All theologies so called which contradict a plain thus saith the Lord, will be proved to be the deception and vain imaginings of fallen humanity which they are. Those who have claimed to be these "authorities of truth", will be revealed as the ignorant, self important impostures of deception that they are.
So be it unto us, as we have both declared, when we stand before God on that great day.
Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlPq2-_TAu8
More questions regarding present time line narratives, in relation to obvious ruins from the flood.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWByKmdYB2U
More about out of time and place technology.
It took you only 2 sentences to identify their error. You are far ahead of Amo and the answers-in-Genesis crowd.
If you feel you need something beyond the Bible to live out your "faith," such as science, you are not nearly as advanced, spiritually, as you believe yourself to be. You are actually several steps behind people who do not require today's psuedo science to have faith in something. Science works actively to attempt to prove God does not exists. Science in it's purest sense has not always operated on this basis. But since the Enlightenment, science has actively worked to eradicate faith and the concept of God. When you make posts as some of the ones you made above, denigrating people who do not believe as you do, you actively participate in secular society's goal of eradicating religion.
: Cobalt1959 Sun Sep 25, 2022 - 01:59:20
You are actually several steps behind people who do not require today's psuedo science to have faith in something.
What is pseudo science?
: CobaltScience works actively to attempt to prove God does not exists.
Where did you ever get such an idea? It is completely wrong. There may indeed be some scientists that do not believe in God, but that has nothing to do with science.
: CobaltScience in it's purest sense has not always operated on this basis.
And what in the world is "science in it's purest sense"?
: Cobalt But since the Enlightenment, science has actively worked to eradicate faith and the concept of God.
Another totally asinine statement.
: CobaltWhen you make posts as some of the ones you made above, denigrating people who do not believe as you do, you actively participate in secular society's goal of eradicating religion.
I truly believe that people who, being seriously scientifically challenged, make statements such as you have here have done more to eradicate faith in God than all those nasty scientists that you apparently abhor.
I truly believe that people who, being seriously scientifically challenged, make statements such as you have here have done more to eradicate faith in God than all those nasty scientists that you apparently abhor.
Same old, same old. As if those who view science as separated from scripture as a foundational building block of observation and conclusion, are "scientifically" superior, while those who do such are "scientifically" challenged. According to what authority are you so superior in understanding 4WD? We've been through this before. I can and have presented YEC scientists with far greater supposed "scientific credentials" of this world than you will ever have. Are they all scientifically challenged simply because you and your demigod's of deep time evolutionary theory say so? Simply because their world view is based upon scriptures, and those of your chosen faith are not?
The bottom line is simple enough. What are deep time evolutionists, but just the leaders of another faith, claiming superiority of intellect above all others in their boisterous claims because of some learning in their own specific fields of study. Which they apply as they see fit to their own understanding or faith. Nevertheless, the basics are just that, and these individuals are no wiser than any of the rest of us concerning them. The world is covered from one end to the other with countless and ever increasingly discovered small, medium, and massive graveyards of obvious extinction level event or events. Some refuse the biblical testimony regarding the reason for this most abundant evidence everywhere. Others do not. Both consider the others ignorant according to their chosen faiths regarding this evidence. One side however denies that their observations are built upon faith, while the others freely admit of the same. And there you have it in a nut shell. The same underlying core beliefs are what determine the many other observations each applies to their chosen faiths.
We can all see the same evidence, and even acknowledge this or that observable fact about them, but we will apply them differently according to our faiths. It is not always a matter of ignorance or apparent superior intellect as so often claimed, as though such knowledge was so far out of reach of the average Joe, but simple disagreement regarding one's faith. Yes some are truly ignorant, and some are truly self important and believe they actually are intellectually superior to all those who disagree with them. These are the exceptions though, not the rule. YEC's are not scientifically challenged, they are simply of another faith. Nor are deep time evolutionists of superior intellect but in their own minds perhaps, but simply of a different, perhaps more popular faith today.
Both form and submit theories according to their faiths. Some are good and withstand the tests of time and increased knowledge, many are not and do not. Neither is necessarily intellectually or scientifically challenged or superior. They are simply of different faiths or disciplines if you will. If anything ends up being superior or inferior, it will be between the faiths chosen, not actual intellect of this or that person. As for me, I will stand by scriptural testimony as the superior faith.
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
: Cobalt1959 Sun Sep 25, 2022 - 01:59:20
If you feel you need something beyond the Bible to live out your "faith," such as science, you are not nearly as advanced, spiritually, as you believe yourself to be. You are actually several steps behind people who do not require today's psuedo science to have faith in something. Science works actively to attempt to prove God does not exists. Science in it's purest sense has not always operated on this basis. But since the Enlightenment, science has actively worked to eradicate faith and the concept of God. When you make posts as some of the ones you made above, denigrating people who do not believe as you do, you actively participate in secular society's goal of eradicating religion.
Wait a minute.
First this is a silly statement
"If you feel you need something beyond the Bible to live out your "faith," such as science, you are not nearly as advanced, spiritually, as you believe yourself to be.
Why? Because the unfortunate fact of life... if you have not noticed ... is that we are alive in a world that has existed long before anyone here was ever thought of. IT IS because of that that there are things... primarily of the past that the Holy Bible does not explain.
Why? My belief is that it is totally irrelevant to why were are here and where we will be going in eternity.
And therefore has ZERO to do with faith of any kind. NOT Christianity, Muslim, Buddhist or any other.
That does not mean that we have to live in a bubble lacking curiosity.
If it was not for some scientist way back when... who came up with a vaccine against polio... how many people on here... maybe you would have been cripples all your life?
You are going to say a doctor is not a scientist.... WRONG
A scientist is a person who conducts scientific research to advance knowledge in an area of interest.
Curing the human body is an area of interest to many.
Can medical scientists be wrong.
You only have to look at Fauci ( And Birx) to know they can. Yet he still has his main interest in gain of function.
Does wanting to cure the human body go against God? Against Christianity? Against Faith? NO
So going in another direction and that is the history of things...
YOU have such by the very nature of your Christian faith and what you have endeavored to know and understand that comes from the HAND BOOK that God gave us.... The Holy Bible and What is in the four corners thereof.
But ... and not to be crude... stop and think what the bible does tell us.
It said... go and multiply.... All the way back in Genesis...
What does the bible not tell us.
HOW. There is no blueprint on how to conceive... and if it were not for scientists somewhere in history women would not even know when they were ovulating.....
And there are no instructions of manner and form ... and as far as we know intention was that all would mate like the animals....
Dont dare get into Solomon cause it is not mating specific... just forplay specific.
So when the subject comes up such as Giants....
You have not even said if you have a belief in them or not.
I posed the question long ago about why there were no skeletons found... and have only read stories about how they somehow disappeared from the Smithsonian... etc.
BUT they are mentioned in the bible..... usually under a Nephilim reference.
There are those who say the term simply describes tall people.
Deuteronony talks of OG
Wiki says..
Deuteronomy 3:11 declares that his "bedstead" (translated in some texts as "sarcophagus") of iron is "nine cubits in length and four cubits in width", which is 13.5 by 6 feet (4.1 by 1.8 m) according to the standard cubit of a man.
To need a sarcophagus 13.5 feet by 6 feet is for a pretty tall man.
It is said King Og was at least 11-feet tall, yet some claim up to 18. (I doubt 18 unless his legs were bent in his sarcophagus.
Or unless they broke his legs like Pilate's command to the soldiers to break the legs of the thieves, to be sure they were dead?)
Goliath was 6 cubits and a span... that translates to around 9 feet 9 inches.
Both of these men were far above just very tall people we might commonly see today.
But you have the scientists that come in the form of archaeologists, historians, physicists, astronomers etc.
You cannot uncategorical claim every one of these fields of study is an affront to the Christian faith.
Without question I personally believe their claim of the age of the universe is wrong.... and without question I personally believe that Adam of the Garden of Eden was not the first man God made.
But I would challenge my faith to be every bit as strong as yours.
Do I follow along the explorations of all things in space. YES.
NOT to find the age of the earth or to see what they may find UFO wise...
NO... I am totally fascinated by what we have seen out there by way of shapes and colors.
Every planet or anything else they send pictures back are individual and as special as the one you are living on.
A plethora of colors... because they are all individually composed differently...
And this picture ( I could post dozens upon dozens of the differences seen ) is of our neighbors....
All created by the master of all time... Our Lord God.... what a vision He had/has.... it gives me goose bumps to know his artistry and what we now... because of some scientists can enjoy. The planets of the solar system are varied in their appearance. Mercury is slate gray while Venus is pearly white, Earth a vibrant blue, and Mars a dusky red. Even the gas giants are different, Neptune and Uranus an opaque blue, while Jupiter and Saturn are mostly beige with brilliant red-brown belts.(https://i.ibb.co/fCQZ6Pw/jpeg-PIA03153.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7GbBM6m)
So many pictures showing the beauty He created... just for our Galaxy.... can be seen herehttps://www.istockphoto.com/photos/planets-in-solar-system
Well, I digress yet again so I will stop.
Final comment....
There is nothing wrong with wanting to know more about what God has given to us.
It takes nothing away from our faith.
Those who are agnostic or atheist never had faith to begin with but I believe God has used them to show us his grandeur.
: Amo Sun Sep 25, 2022 - 09:01:23
Same old, same old. As if those who view science as separated from scripture as a foundational building block of observation and conclusion, are "scientifically" superior, while those who do such are "scientifically" challenged.
I have never made such a statement. I have never ever suggested that anyone view science as separated from scripture. I have said on several occasions those, such as you, who are nearly devoid of any scientific knowledge are indeed scientifically challenged.
: According to what authority are you so superior in understanding 4WD? We've been through this before. I can and have presented YEC scientists with far greater supposed "scientific credentials" of this world than you will ever have. Are they all scientifically challenged simply because you and your demigod's of deep time evolutionary theory say so? Simply because their world view is based upon scriptures, and those of your chosen faith are not?
My chosen faith? I certainly would not bow to you in any sense of faith in God and His word. I have no doubt whatsoever that my faith in God is every bit as sincere and deep as yours.
: AmoThe bottom line is simple enough.
Yes, it is. And that is that you haven't a clue about what you rage on and on about when it comes to things scientific.
: Amo As for me, I will stand by scriptural testimony as the superior faith.
That is simply not true. What you stand by as superior faith is your particular translation/interpretation of scripture. As far as you are concerned, any who would disagree with you on just about anything scriptural is a non-believer.
: Amo2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Notice what it says. It is talking about being made "wise unto salvation" and "instruction in righteousness". There is absolutely nothing in that passage that would you make you "wise unto or instructed in science". That you would so interpret it only shows how far out, scripturally, you really are.
: 4WD Sun Sep 25, 2022 - 09:56:23
I have never made such a statement. I have never ever suggested that anyone view science as separated from scripture. I have said on several occasions those, such as you, who are nearly devoid of any scientific knowledge are indeed scientifically challenged. My chosen faith? I certainly would not bow to you in any sense of faith in God and His word. I have no doubt whatsoever that my faith in God is every bit as sincere and deep as yours. Yes, it is. And that is that you haven't a clue about what you rage on and on about when it comes to things scientific. That is simply not true. What you stand by as superior faith is your particular translation/interpretation of scripture. As far as you are concerned, any who would disagree with you on just about anything scriptural is a non-believer. Notice what it says. It is talking about being made "wise unto salvation" and "instruction in righteousness". There is absolutely nothing in that passage that would you make you "wise unto or instructed in science". That you would so interpret it only shows how far out, scripturally, you really are.
Like I said, same old, same old. I don't have a clue, but 4WD does and is the authority to tell me so, apparently. According to the authority of himself as well, apparently. It is not my translation 4WD, it is every translation that anyone has ever put forth. Correct me if I am wrong by showing us a translation anywhere which says what you have chosen to believe. It does not exist anywhere in scripture. Not to mention, you yourself will not even make a conclusive statement regarding exactly what you believe. We do not even know this, but only that you do not accept what scripture simply states, as translated by every translator, thus far at least that I know. Again, please do provide evidence to the contrary, if in fact there are translations I do not know of.
: Amo Sun Sep 25, 2022 - 10:07:35
Like I said, same old, same old. I don't have a clue, but 4WD does and is the authority to tell me so, apparently. According to the authority of himself as well, apparently. It is not my translation 4WD, it is every translation that anyone has ever put forth. Correct me if I am wrong by showing us a translation anywhere which says what you have chosen to believe. It does not exist anywhere in scripture. Not to mention, you yourself will not even make a conclusive statement regarding exactly what you believe. We do not even know this, but only that you do not accept what scripture simply states, as translated by every translator, thus far at least that I know. Again, please do provide evidence to the contrary, if in fact there are translations I do not know of.
It is not difficult to find many authoritative sources who interpret the Hebrew word, "yom" translated "day" in English, to mean something other than today's 24-hour period of time. I have presented a few of those in the past, some even being Hebrew scholars; but of course, you reject any such scholarly views.
: 4WD Sun Sep 25, 2022 - 10:18:01
It is not difficult to find many authoritative sources who interpret the Hebrew word, "yom" translated "day" in English, to mean something other than today's 24-hour period of time. I have presented a few of those in the past, some even being Hebrew scholars; but of course, you reject any such scholarly views.
There are people who interpret it as such, which some may consider authoritative, but there is no bible translation expressing the idea. There is a reason for that. Not the least of which is the fourth commandment, no doubt.
: Amo Sun Sep 25, 2022 - 11:13:15
There are people who interpret it as such, which some may consider authoritative, but there is no bible translation expressing the idea.
[/size]There is no Bible translation expressing the idea that the earth revolves around the sun, and there are plenty to suggest otherwise. But few doubt the actual truth is found in the science..
So your argument is completely invalid.
: 4WD Sun Sep 25, 2022 - 11:31:35
[/size]There is no Bible translation expressing the idea that the earth revolves around the sun, and there are plenty to suggest otherwise. But few doubt the actual truth is found in the science..
So your argument is completely invalid.
Apples and oranges. We are not talking about what the bible does not say, we are talking about what the bible does say. It does say that the world was created in six days. Several times over.
: 4WD Sun Sep 25, 2022 - 10:18:01
It is not difficult to find many authoritative sources who interpret the Hebrew word, "yom" translated "day" in English, to mean something other than today's 24-hour period of time. I have presented a few of those in the past, some even being Hebrew scholars; but of course, you reject any such scholarly views.
Good afternoon 4WD,
May I assume that based on what I bolded and colored in your reply to Amo that you do believe, without much hesitancy , that
you accept the scholarly views of those you suggested?
Please tell me if the following somewhat sums up what you believe... more or less, for this is not from me it is from another who will be revealed in due time with the source as I will list it all... in the hopes that you and also AMO will read in full.
"Contrary to what is often implied or claimed by young-earth creationists, the Bible nowhere directly teaches the age of the earth.
"I want to suggest there are some good, textual reasons—in the creation account itself—for questioning the exegesis that insists on the days as strict 24 hour periods. Am I as certain of this as I am of the resurrection of Christ? Definitely not. But in some segments of the church, I fear that we've built an exegetical "fence around the Torah," fearful that if we question any aspect of young-earth dogmatics we have opened the gate to liberalism. The defenders of inerrancy above show that this is not the case. And a passion for sola Scriptura provides us with the humility and willingness to go back to the text again to see if these things are so.
"How long were God's workdays? The Bible doesn't say. But I see no reason to insist that they were only 24 hours long.
Rella,
I could go along with most of that. Beyond that, I have presented articles by Gerold Schroeder to show how, through the theory of relativity, both the six 24-hour days of Genesis and the 13+ Billion years from science could both be literally true. He has shown how the schedule of events over the 13+ Billion years as presented by modern-day science lines up very nearly one-to-one with the schedule laid out in the six creation days in Genesis.
: 4WD Sun Sep 25, 2022 - 16:41:27
Rella,
I could go along with most of that. Beyond that, I have presented articles by Gerold Schroeder to show how, through the theory of relativity, both the six 24-hour days of Genesis and the 13+ Billion years from science could both be literally true. He has shown how the schedule of events over the 13+ Billion years as presented by modern-day science lines up very nearly one-to-one with the schedule laid out in the six creation days in Genesis.
I just had a reply ready to post. The article from the young blogger most will not know.
I mentioned that it has a brief statement at the beginning by RC Sproul that you will not give any credence to but it is not his article or commentary at all.
I said I hoped you and @Amo will truly read this as it has some points that are never discussed in these debates on the 24 hour day... and some interesting points on the 7th day... of rest.
I had taken time to bold, italicize , and color points for easier finding and reading...
But then Just as I was in the process of highlighting the article to make it a total quote, my mouse died, and when I changed the battery in it.... my 75 minutes of work was gone.
So.... Ill just post it here now as is and ask you please give thought to the 5 points and comments and those after.
BTW... TC likely will come along and knock this as it is not from his 100% right church... but argh... does have a Presbyterian
theologian reference toward the end, among others.
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justin-taylor/biblical-reasons-to-doubt-the-creation-days-were-24-hour-periods/R. C. Sproul, who drafted the original Chicago Statement of Biblical Inerrancy, once said, "When people ask me how old the earth is, I tell them I don't know—because I don't." (This is the only place he has been mentioned... )
Contrary to what is often implied or claimed by young-earth creationists, the Bible nowhere directly teaches the age of the earth.
Rather, it is a deduction from a combination of beliefs, such as (1) Genesis 1:1 is not the actual act of creation but rather a summary of or title over Genesis 1:2-2:3; (2) the creation week of Genesis 1:2-2:3 is referring to the act of creation itself; (3) each "day" (Heb. yom) of the creation week is referring to an 24-hour period of time (reinforced by the statement in Exodus 20:11); (4) an old-earth geology would necessarily entail macroevolution, hominids, and animal death before the Fall—each of which contradicts what Scripture tells us; and (5) the approximate age of the earth can be reconstructed backward from the genealogical time-markers in Genesis.
These five points may all be true, but I think it's helpful to understand that the question "how old is the earth?" is not something directly answered in Scripture but rather deduced from these and other points.
It is commonly suggested that this is such a "plain reading" of Scripture—so obviously clear and true—that the only people who doubt it are those who have been influenced by Charles Darwin and his neo-Darwinian successors. The claim is often made that no one doubted this reading until after Darwin. (This just isn't true—from ancient rabbis to Augustine to B. B. Warfield—but that's another post for another time.)
So it may come as a surprise to some contemporary conservatives that some of the great stalwarts of the faith were not convinced of this interpretation.
Augustine, writing in the early fifth century, noted, "What kind of days these were it is extremely difficult, or perhaps impossible, to determine" (City of God 11.7).
J. Gresham Machen (1881-1937), author of the 20th century's best critique of theological liberalism, wrote, "It is certainly not necessary to think that the six days spoken of in that first chapter of the Bible are intended to be six days of twenty four hours each."
Old Testament scholar Edward J. Young (1907-1968), an eloquent defender of inerrancy, said that regarding the length of the creation days, "That is a question which is difficult to answer. Indications are not lacking that they may have been longer than the days we now know, but the Scripture itself does not speak as clearly as one might like."
Theologian Carl F. H. Henry (1913-2003), one of the most important theologians in the second half of the twentieth century and a defender of Scriptural clarity and authority, argued that "Faith in an inerrant Bible does not rest on the recency or antiquity of the earth. . . . The Bible does not require belief in six literal 24-hour creation days on the basis of Genesis 1-2. . . . it is gratuitous to insist that twenty-four hour days are involved or intended."
Old Testament scholar and Hebrew linguist Gleason Archer (1916-2004), a strong advocate for inerrancy, wrote "On the basis of internal evidence, it is this writer's conviction that yôm in Genesis could not have been intended by the Hebrew author to mean a literal twenty-four hour day."
I want to suggest there are some good, textual reasons—in the creation account itself—for questioning the exegesis that insists on the days as strict 24 hour periods. Am I as certain of this as I am of the resurrection of Christ? Definitely not. But in some segments of the church, I fear that we've built an exegetical "fence around the Torah," fearful that if we question any aspect of young-earth dogmatics we have opened the gate to liberalism. The defenders of inerrancy above show that this is not the case. And a passion for sola Scriptura provides us with the humility and willingness to go back to the text again to see if these things are so.
What follows are brief sketches of biblical reasons to doubt young-earth exegesis.
1. Genesis 1:1 Describes the Actual Act of Creation Out of Nothing and Is Not a Title or a Summary
Genesis 1:1 tells us that "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
This is not a title or a summary of the narrative that follows. Rather, it is a background statement that describes how the universe came to be.
In Genesis 1:1, "created" is in the perfect tense, and when a perfect verb is used at the beginning of a unit in Hebrew narrative, it usually functions to describe an event that precedes the main storyline (see Gen. 16:1, 22:1, 24:1 for comparison).
Furthermore, the Hebrew conjunction at the beginning of Genesis 1:2 supports this reading.
If Genesis 1:1 is merely a title or a summary, then Genesis does not teach creation out of nothing. But I think Genesis 1:1 is describing the actual act of God creating "heaven and earth" (a merism for the universe, indicating totality—like "high and low," "east and west," "near and far," "rising up and sitting down," "seen and unseen"). Genesis 1:1 describes the creation of everything "visible and invisible" (Col. 1:16), with Genesis 1:2ff. focusing upon the "visible."
After the act of creation in Genesis 1:1, the main point of the narrative (in Gen. 1:3-2:3) seems to be the making and preparation of the earth for its inhabitants, with a highly patterned structure of forming and filling.
Screen Shot 2015-01-28 at 8.37.11 AM
2. The Earth, Darkness, and Water Are Created Before "The First Day"
In Genesis 1:1, God creates the "heavens and the earth." (In Joel 3:15-16 we see that "heavens" encompasses the sun, the moon, and the stars.) Then in Genesis 1:2 we are told that this earth that was created is without form and void, that darkness covers the waters, and that the Spirit is hovering over it.
If Genesis 1:1 is not the act of creation, then where do the earth, the darkness, and the waters come from that are referred to in Genesis 1:2 before God's first fiat? Further, if the sun is created in day four (Gen. 1:16), why do we have light already appearing in Genesis 1:3?
It helps to remember that in Hebrew there are distinct words for create and make. When the Hebrew construction let there be is used in the phrase "Let your steadfast love . . . be upon us" (Ps. 33:22; cf. Ps. 90:17; Ps. 119:76), this obviously isn't a request for God's love to begin to exist, but rather to function in a certain way. Similarly, if the sun, moon, stars, and lights were created in Genesis 1:1, then they were made or appointed for a particular function in Genesis 1:13, 14, 16—namely, to mark the set time for worship on man's calendar.
3. The Seventh "Day" Is Not 24 Hours Long
In Genesis 2:2-3 where we are told that "on the seventh day [yom] God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day [yom] from all his work that he had done. So God blessed the seventh day [yom] and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation." The question we have to ask here is: was God's creation "rest" limited to a 24-hour period? On the contrary, Psalm 95 and Hebrews 4 teach that God's Sabbath rest "remains" and that we can enter into it or be prevented from entering it.
Miles Van Pelt observes:
In Exod 20:11, the command for the people of God to remember the Sabbath day is grounded in God's pattern of work and rest during the creation week. The people of God are to work for six solar days (Exod 20:9) and then rest on the seventh solar day (Exod 20:10). If, therefore, it can be maintained that God's seventh day rest in Gen 2 extends beyond the scope of a single solar day, then the correspondence between the "day" of God's rest and our "day" of observance would be analogical, not identical. In other words, if day seven is an unending day, still in progress, then our weekly recognition of that day is not temporally identical. As such, there is no reason to maintain that the same could not be true for the previous six days, especially if the internal, exegetical evidence from Genesis 1 and 2 supports this reality.
4. The "Day" of Genesis 2:4 Cannot Be 24 Hours Long
After using "the seventh day" in an analogical way (i.e., similar to but not identical with a 24-hour day), we read in the very next verse, Genesis 2:4: "These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day [yom] that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens."
The precise meaning of this is debated. But what seems clear, if we believe the Bible does not contradict itself, is that this (singular) "day"—in which the creation events (plural "generations") occur—cannot refer to a single 24-hour period. In fact, it does not seem to correspond to any one of the creation week days, but is either a reference to the act of creation itself (Gen. 1:1) or an umbrella reference to the lengthier process of forming and fitting the inhabitable earth (Gen. 2:2ff). In either case, this use of yom presents a puzzle for those who insist that "young-earth" exegesis is the only interpretation that takes the opening chapters of Genesis "literally."
Defenders of the 24-hour view acknowledge that yom can mean more than a single calendar day but often insist that "[numbered] yom" (e.g., "first day") always, without exception, refers to a 24-hour day in the Hebrew Bible. This is not true, however. Not only does the rest of the canon tell us that the "seventh day" is not 24 hours, but Hosea 6:2 ("third day") seems to be used in an analogical way that does not refer to a precise 24-hour time period.
5. The Explanation of Genesis 2:5-7 Assumes More Than an Ordinary Calendar Day
In his article "Because It Had Rained" (part 1 and part 2), Mark Futato of Reformed Theological Seminary explains the logic of Genesis 2:5-7 and shows its role in OT covenantal theology.
Futato sees in this passage a twofold problem, a twofold reason, and a twofold solution.
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The twofold problem?
No wild vegetation had appeared in the land.
No cultivated grains had yet sprung up.
The twofold reason for this problem?
The Lord God had not sent rain on the land.
There was no man to cultivate the ground.
The twofold solution to this problem?
God caused rain clouds to rise up from the earth and water the whole surface of the ground.
The Lord God formed the man.
Note the reason why there were no shrubs or small plants in the Garden: because "it had not yet rained." The explanation for this lack of vegetation which is attributed to ordinary providence. But if the sixth day is a 24-hour period, this explanation would make little sense. The very wording of the text presupposes seasons and rain cycles and a lengthier passage of time during this "day [yom]" that God formed man. This doesn't mean that it refers to thousands of years, or hundreds of years. It just means that it's very doubtful it means a 24-hour period.
So What Does God Mean by "Days" in Genesis 1?
Let's go back to the "seventh day." On the seventh day, according to Exodus 31:17, God "rested and was refreshed." Why would an omnipotent and inexhaustible God need to be "refreshed"? It's the same Hebrew word used for getting your breath back after running a long race (Ex. 23:2; 2 Sam. 16:14). The reason it is not improper to say that God was refreshed is the same reason it's not improper to say that God breathes, hovers, is like a potter, gardens, searches, asks questions, comes down, etc.—all images of God used in Genesis. God's revelation to us is analogical (neither entirely identical nor entirely dissimilar) and anthropomorphic (accommodated and communicated from our perspective in terms we can understand).
So when God refers to "days," does he want us to mentally substitute the word "eons" or "ages"? No.
Does he want us to think of precise units of time, marked by 24 exact hours as the earth makes a rotation on its axis? No.
Does he want us to think of the Hebrew workday? Yes, in an analogical and anthropomorphic sense. Just as the "seventh day" makes us think of an ordinary calendar day (even though it isn't technically a 24-hour period), so the other "six days" are meant to be read in the same way.
This is what the great Reformed theologian Herman Bavinck (1854-1921) believed: "The creation days are the workdays of God. By a labor, resumed and renewed six times, he prepared the whole earth."
This is also what the Presbyterian theologian W.G.T. Shedd (1820-1894) advocated:
The seven days of the human week are copies of the seven days of the divine week. The "sun-divided days" are images of the "God-divided days."
This agrees with the biblical representation generally. The human is the copy of the divine, not the divine of the human. Human fatherhood and sonship are finite copies of the Trinitarian fatherhood and sonship. Human justice, benevolence, holiness, mercy, etc., are imitations of corresponding divine qualities.
The reason given for man's rest upon the seventh solar day is that God rested upon the seventh creative day (Ex. 20:11). But this does not prove that the divine rest was only twenty-four hours in duration any more than the fact that human sonship is a copy of the divine proves that the latter is sexual.
Augustine (the most influential theologian in the Western Church) believed something similar, as did Franz Delitzsch (perhaps the great Christian Hebraist). It was the most common view among the late 19th century and early 20th century conservative Dutch theologians.
God is portrayed as a workman going through his workweek, working during the day and resting for the night. Then on his Sabbath, he enjoys a full and refreshing rest. Our days are like God's workdays, but not identical to them.
How long were God's workdays? The Bible doesn't say. But I see no reason to insist that they were only 24 hours long.
Rella,
That is very much how I would describe, and have described, the creation events. I could take issue with some of the statements there, but it would not be helpful to the discussion here. The major points that are raised there are the very same major points that I have raised in many of the discussions that I have held with YECs.
I think if you could look back on all of what I have said in the past, you would find on several occasions, I have raised the issue of God's seventh day of rest which is even now, according to the Bible itself, still in progress.
Side tracking this conversation to a reference.
I HAVE NOT read it all but wanted to get it posted before I lose it as I ran across this mention of giants when I was delving into Josephus about the flood.
https://www.marquette.edu/maqom/giants.html
This is what caused me to post this link so quickly without fully reading it: But have read enough to ask who knows anything about the mentioned Book of Giants and Enoch?
"Overshadowed by Enoch's Greatness: "Two Tablets" Traditions from the Book of Giants to Palaea Historica
"Preaching to the Giants
It was observed earlier that in Josephus' account the "two stelae" story is attached to the Watchers/Giants narrative. The author of Jewish Antiquities portrays Noah's unsuccessful preaching to the Giants. J. Vanderkam notes that "it is not impossible that Josephus took his information from a source such as 1 Enoch 6-11, which mentions Noah but not Enoch, although in those chapters Noah does not try to improve the overbearing giants."[37] Indeed, despite the fact that some traditions point to a possible close relationship between Noah and the Giants in view of his miraculous birth,[38] his "experience" in dealing with the Giants in Enochic traditions cannot be even compared with Enoch's record. In various Enochic materials, Enoch is pictured as the special envoy of the Lord to the Watchers/Giants with a special, long-lasting mission to this rebellious group, both on earth and in other realms. The Book of Watchers depicts him as the intercessor to the fallen angels. According to Jub. 4:22, Enoch "...testified to the Watchers who had sinned with the daughters of men... Enoch testified against all of them."[39] In the Book of Giants Enoch delivers the written "sermon," reprimanding the Watchers/Giants' sinful behavior and warning them about the upcoming punishment.[40] 2 Enoch 18 portrays Enoch's "preaching" to the Watchers during his celestial tour, encouraging them to start the liturgy before the face of the Lord.[41]
An examination of the surviving evidences to the "two stelae" story shows that some of them attest to a tradition different from that attested in Josephus. Instead of Noah's preaching to the Giants, they portray Enosh's preaching to the sons of God. Two references about the preaching to the sons of God in the "two stelae" traditions are especially important. Both of them have been preserved in the Armenian language and include the Armenian History of the Forefathers and Abel.
The Armenian History of the Forefathers 40-44 deals with the two stelae story. In 45 the narrative continues with the description of Enosh's preaching:
https://www.marquette.edu/maqom/giants.html
I truly believe that people who, being seriously scientifically challenged, make statements such as you have here have done more to eradicate faith in God than all those nasty scientists that you apparently abhor
And you know this . . . how?
I see that when you see something in a scientific vein you don't accept, your default way to go is to claim the other person doesn't like science simply because they do not agree with
you. Logically, that is a non-starter.
I doubt there are many people here, or anywhere who have watched Jame's Burke's "Connections" series, all 3 of them, more times than I have. I have all of them digitalized and I watch them often. The problem is not with science. The problem is people who try to come to "scientific" conclusions outside of an understanding that God didn't just create the Earth. He created science as well. God is in control of science, just as He is in control of everything else. But some people don't seem to be able to grasp this concept. God was forced to create a universe billions of years old, because Evolutionists say so. Every single time that you, or anyone else on here denigrate YEC's and claim they hate science or say they are stupid for believing in a young Earth, what you are actually saying is that an omnipotent Creator was unable to create a young Earth. Over in the creation thread you have people pretty much directly saying the Bible isn't reliable when it comes to Genesis. That Genesis isn't a literal description of actual events. If you are not a young Earth believer, the first thing you have to do is toss Genesis in the trash, because it conflicts with a belief in an ancient, ancient Earth. When you claim to be a devote Christian, but you start figuring out ways to marginalize certain books of the Bible because they don't fit your personal worldview, you create yourself some spiritual problems. You can poke fun at other people for believing that all scripture is divinely inspired and reliable, but that doesn't solve your problem.
First this is a silly statement
That was taking the long way around the barn. Kind of a novella. I'm not sure what you expect me to do with it. God is not forced to have created the universe the way
you think He did. I thought the point was pretty plain. You, and a couple other people in this thread frequently
make fun of people who express a belief in a young Earth. And you do it with a smug, smarter-than-you attitude. Like anyone who doesn't believe the way you do are stupid, uneducated hicks. Both behaviors are a problem, from a Christian point of view. But I guess when you are more advanced than them that makes the poor behavior acceptable . . .
: Cobalt1959 Thu Sep 29, 2022 - 01:54:18
That was taking the long way around the barn. Kind of a novella. I'm not sure what you expect me to do with it. God is not forced to have created the universe the way you think He did. I thought the point was pretty plain. You, and a couple other people in this thread frequently make fun of people who express a belief in a young Earth. And you do it with a smug, smarter-than-you attitude. Like anyone who doesn't believe the way you do are stupid, uneducated hicks. Both behaviors are a problem, from a Christian point of view. But I guess when you are more advanced than them that makes the poor behavior acceptable . . .
Ah, Cobalt... lighten up.
First things are that no one... no, not one person here is calling anyone an uneducated hick.
The plain truth of the matter is that we... the people... collectively... on GC.... have differing opinions of every single thing within the four corners of the Holy Bible....
Is that wrong? Certainly not, because even the authors of the first 4 gospels in the New testament do not 100% agree with each other and them living back then... even if recording from word of mouth being passed down... one would think that it would all match.
Do I tend to write too much. Sure.
First it is the latent author in me....
Next... not sure if it is because God made me this way, or because of my age, or maybe just being a woman I tend to have my mind offshoot in areas that carry conversations in differing directions. ALSO I use a lot of reference points and if you have not noticed... a few folk here even knock the education and knowlege of theologians and far better educated people then I if they happen to disagree with them ... which is a good 90% of the time.
BTW.... YOU try being a woman in these biblical theological debates where most of the men here feel you should be in the kitchen out of the men's conversations. And then try being in a different denomination then everyone else.... and then you will know what being made fun of is really about.... and add to that people actually questioning or saying you are not saved....
you tend to get a back bone... or just fade away...
You say... "You, ( meaning me) and a couple other people in this thread frequently make fun of people who express a belief in a young Earth.
I do beg to differ with you on that. As for myself... there is only one that I habitually go after... and he retaliates to me. But it is not because we make fun of either's biblical beliefs....I am just waiting until the day he consistently wears his long pants ::tippinghat::
As to young earth. If that is your belief, fine...many do.
I happen to believe the earth is not only 6,000, 8,000 or 13,000 years old and that stems from my firm belief that Adam of the Garden of Eden was not the first man God made.
Now... I am not going into a long explanation of that on here because I, admittedly am in the minority believing that... just like I do believe Jesus was married.... I also believe in giants, and the flood covering the entire earth.
Ya wanna make fun of me.... go right ahead. I know what I know and knowing what I know allows me to say... I knew that.
(My best Kamala imitation. rofl)
: Cobalt1959 Thu Sep 29, 2022 - 01:45:33
And you know this . . . how?
I don't KNOW this; but I do think it may well be the case. That is because, when so many, perhaps most by far, who have been taught the YEC version of creation, see that nearly the entire extent of available data does not support it, they not only abandon their belief in the YEC version of creation, but they abandon their belief in God and His word as truth.
: Cobalt1959I see that when you see something in a scientific vein you don't accept, your default way to go is to claim the other person doesn't like science simply because they do not agree with you. Logically, that is a non-starter.
No, it is not that the other person doesn't like science simply because they do not agree with me; rather, it is because the other person doesn't agree with what the implied results of the available data.
: Cobalt1959I doubt there are many people here, or anywhere who have watched Jame's Burke's "Connections" series, all 3 of them, more times than I have. I have all of them digitalized and I watch them often. The problem is not with science. The problem is people who try to come to "scientific" conclusions outside of an understanding that God didn't just create the Earth. He created science as well. God is in control of science, just as He is in control of everything else. But some people don't seem to be able to grasp this concept.
I am not familiar with James Burke. I shall look him up. However, while it is true that many reject God, generally, including the fact that God, in creating the universe, also created the natural laws that control the universe. There are many however who are believers and recognize God as the creator of the universe including the natural laws that control it.
Ironically, it is usually the YEC types who object to the natural laws that God created as He created them; and instead insist that those natural laws have been changed in ways to allow the interpretation of creation to fit their own YEC narrative. Thus, for example, the speed of light is not constant, but has been changed from what it is now to allow for what now appears to imply the existence of a universe billions of years old.
: Cobalt1959God was forced to create a universe billions of years old, because Evolutionists say so.
No, that is not true at all. It is not because Evolutionists say so; rather, it is because the data from God's own science says so. I would imagine that your James Burke would not agree that the data from God's own science says so and instead thinks God's own science says something else. But that nearly always comes by way of a denial of the science that is.
: Cobalt1959Every single time that you, or anyone else on here denigrate YEC's and claim they hate science or say they are stupid for believing in a young Earth, what you are actually saying is that an omnipotent Creator was unable to create a young Earth.
That is not true at all. First I do not denigrate YECs; I do reject their interpretation of some things in the Bible. I believe it is entirely possible that an omnipotent Creator is quite capable of creating a young Earth. One cannot prove that He didn't. One cannot prove that He didn't create the entire universe together with the entire apparent history of events 6000 years ago; or 4000 years ago; or 1000 years ago, or yesterday. However, that is not what God's own science says happened. God's own science suggests something else entirely. So if God did if fact create a young Earth, then it seems to me He is being very deceptive in doing something that is in contradiction to the evidence presented by His own science.
: Cobalt1959Over in the creation thread you have people pretty much directly saying the Bible isn't reliable when it comes to Genesis. That Genesis isn't a literal description of actual events. If you are not a young Earth believer, the first thing you have to do is toss Genesis in the trash, because it conflicts with a belief in an ancient, ancient Earth. When you claim to be a devote Christian, but you start figuring out ways to marginalize certain books of the Bible because they don't fit your personal worldview, you create yourself some spiritual problems. You can poke fun at other people for believing that all scripture is divinely inspired and reliable, but that doesn't solve your problem.
Jesus said,
"I am the door". Is that true? Is that a literal description of actual conditions? He said,
"I am the true vine". Is that a literal description?
I am curious. Genesis tells us that when Adam and Eve ate of the tree of forbidden fruit, they
"become as one of us, to know good and evil". What is your literal description of that event? Did they not know, before the ate that fruit, it was wrong to disobey God; did they not know before they ate that fruit that obeying God was good and disobeying God was evil? Please, what is the literal description of that event. Or how about
"he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life." What is your literal description of that event? Or how about on the first day,
"And God said, Let there be light: and there was light" , and yet there were no sun, moon or stars to give light until the fourth day. What is your literal description of those events?
Could it possibly be that you simply want to pick and choose which are literal descriptions and which are not?
"How long were God's workdays? The Bible doesn't say. But I see no reason to insist that they were only 24 hours long.
How about God who cannot lie, descending upon a mountain top before the entire nation of Israel making it smoke like a chimney stack, and telling that entire nation who understand a day to be from evening to evening, that He created the world in six days? Confirming what Moses told them and wrote in Genesis under Divine inspiration from God as well? Not to mention the many other confirmations from scripture in both the old and new testaments, or the complete lack of any suggestion otherwise anywhere in scripture.
Whoever wrote or spoke the above quote, simply did not want to see any reason to believe they were days as we all understand them. As it will be found to be with all who have rejected the simple and plain testimony of scripture, in the end. God does not lie, He has no need to exaggerate as we do, and He is and always has been perfectly capable of expressing the truth in a manner that all can easily understand. This is not to say that God cannot or does not also speak in symbols, which He fully intends only certain people should understand. Such as biblical prophecy, which is meant specifically for the guidance of His own in this world. The subject of creation though, is most obviously not among these exceptions. Being plainly stated and backed up several times, including testimony straight from the mouth and finger of God.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQK4nXehrp4
More probable pre-flood ruins.
So it may come as a surprise to some contemporary conservatives that some of the great stalwarts of the faith were not convinced of this interpretation.
Augustine, writing in the early fifth century, noted, "What kind of days these were it is extremely difficult, or perhaps impossible, to determine" (City of God 11.7).
I will look for this statement in the context it was written. I am always leery of quotes which are not even one sentence long. The following quote is also claimed to be from Augustine, revealing the limits of his wisdom apparently.
"It is, indeed, better that men should be brought to serve God by instruction than by fear of punishment or by pain. But because the former means are better, the latter must not therefore be neglected.... Many must often be brought back to their Lord, like wicked servants, by the rod of temporal suffering, before they attain the highest grade of religious development." — Augustine.
Apart from this, the following quotes are from the complete article which may be viewed at the link below, and above the quotes themselves. Emphasis is mine.
https://answersingenesis.org/days-of-creation/augustine-on-the-days-of-creation/
What Did Augustine Believe?
There are several problems with this view. To begin with, during the years AD 389-417, Augustine wrote three commentaries on Genesis and discussed the early chapters of Genesis in The City of God. His thinking changed in some ways in the process, and his writings are confusing, even somewhat contradictory, at points. Over the years he fluctuated between allegorical interpretations and literal views.1 But there is plenty of evidence that Augustine wasn't an old-earther. Rather, he believed that God created everything in an instant and that He described it for us as being completed in six normal days for the sake of our understanding. He wrote,
"Perhaps we ought not to think of these creatures at the moment they were produced as subject to the processes of nature which we now observe in them, but rather as under the wonderful and unutterable power of the Wisdom of God, which reaches from end to end mightily and governs all graciously. For this power of Divine Wisdom does not reach by stages or arrive by steps. It was just as easy, then, for God to create everything as it is for Wisdom to exercise this mighty power. For through Wisdom all things were made, and the motion we now see in creatures, measured by the lapse of time, as each one fulfills its proper function, comes to creatures from those causal reasons implanted in them, which God scattered as seeds at the moment of creation when He spoke and they were made, He commanded and they were created. Creation, therefore, did not take place slowly in order that a slow development might be implanted in those things that are slow by nature; nor were the ages established at plodding pace at which they now pass. Time brings about the development of these creatures according to the laws of their numbers, but there was no passage of time when they received these laws at creation."2
Furthermore, Augustine believed the genealogies given in Genesis to be literal chronologies and that the pre-Flood patriarchs lived to be around 900 years.3 He also stated, "Unbelievers are also deceived by false documents which ascribe to history many thousand years, although we can calculate from Sacred Scripture that not 6,000 years have passed since the creation of man."4
Since Augustine believed that the original creation happened in an instant of time, there is no basis for thinking that he believed millions of years of time transpired before Adam.
Furthermore, Augustine believed that Genesis 6–8 describes a global Flood. Once again, this distinguishes him from old-earthers like Hugh Ross who believe the Flood was a local catastrophe in the Mesopotamian Valley (modern-day Iraq). Augustine spent five pages answering skeptical objections about the Flood covering all the highest mountains, the Ark being big enough, Noah having the ability to build it, and the feeding of carnivorous animals on the Ark.5
Some claim that Augustine and other Christians of the past only believed in a recent creation and a global Flood because they didn't have contemporary old-earth and evolutionary theories to consider. (Indeed, some throw out the origins beliefs of all pre-19th-century Christians on these grounds.) Yet, early-20th-century evolutionist Henry Fairfield Osborn, director of the American Museum of Natural History, wrote the following:
"When I began the search for anticipations of the evolutionary theory . . . I was led back to the Greek natural philosophers and I was astonished to find how many of the pronounced and basic features of the Darwinian theory were anticipated even as far back as the seventh century BC."6
Augustine therefore had alternative "scientific" theories about earth history in his cultural context, but he refused to merge Scripture with such ideas.
"Even then the chronologies of Greek and Egyptian history do not agree; and since the former does not exceed the true number [of the duration of the world] implied in our Sacred Scripture, it may be accepted. Consequently, if this letter of Alexander [the Great] now so well known, is so far from authentic in its chronology, we can trust still less those other [pagan] documents, so full of mythology, which are cited in opposition to the established authority of inspired writings. The fact of the prediction that the whole world would believe and the fact that it has believed should prove that Sacred Scripture has given a true account of the past. Certainly, much that was predicted has been perfectly fulfilled."7
In fact, he very specifically rejected the old-earth theories of some of his contemporaries, describing them in ways reminiscent of the uniformitarian and catastrophist theories of the 19th century:
"I shall not dwell, then on the conjectures of men who "know not what they say" concerning the nature and origin of the human race. There are, for example, those who hold the opinion that men—like the universe—have always existed. . . . Suppose the following questions are put to these men: If the human race has always existed, how, then do you vindicate the truth of your own history which records the names of inventors and what they invented, the first founders of liberal education and of other arts, the first inhabitants of this or that region and of this or that island? They will answer that at certain intervals of time, most of the land was so devastated by floods and fire that the human race was greatly reduced in size and that from this small number the former population was again restored; and that, thus, at intervals, there was a new discovery and organization of all these things, or, rather a restoration of what had been damaged or destroyed by the great devastations; and that, in any case, men could simply not exist unless they were produced from man. Of course, all this is opinion, not science."8
Thus, Augustine clearly had old-earth views to contend with in his day—from the Greeks and from other pagans—but he did not accept them and did not try to fit those ideas into Genesis.
"and it came to be that when men began to increase on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of Elohim saw the daughters of men that they were fair, and they wives for themselves of all whom they chose. And YHVH said 'My Ruach will not strive with mankind forever in his going astray. He is flesh, and his days shall be 120. The Nephilim (in some translations, the giants) were on the earth in those days and when the sons of Elohim came into the daughters of men, they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men of old, men of name (fame). 6:1-4
There are two schools of thought when the issue of "B'nei Elohim" comes up. Some believe that it refers to the godly line of Seth mixing with the ungodly line of Kayin. The other school of thought which is more probable is that the "sons of God" refer to the fallen angels that were kicked out of heaven together with HaSatan. These "b'nei Elohim" somehow and someway transformed themselves into flesh and blood, and the offspring of those "demon-human" relationships were born "giants". The word "Nephilim" means "fallen ones". It does not mean "giants" ...however...those "mighty men of old" many were "giants" we have examples; Goliath of Gath, Og, king of Bashan.
There is archeological and paleontological evidence of a race of giants in the pre-diluvian world. Many fossil skeletons have been found some 20 and 30 feet tall. The Indians of the South-West claim that there was a race of red-haired giants who were cannibals, they could run after a herd of buffalo, catch one and bite off a leg and eat it on the run.
These giants were destroyed during the flood, however, their DNA still survived. Today there are "Giants" still around. They make millions of dollars on the football field, namely, the "N.Y. Giants"
: Jacob Ben Avraham Sun Oct 23, 2022 - 22:58:09
These giants were destroyed during the flood, however, their DNA still survived.
Or was re-created post flood in the same way it happened before:
Numbers 13:22
When they had gone up into the Negev, they came to Hebron where Ahiman, Sheshai and Talmai, the descendants of Anak were. (Now Hebron was built seven years before Zoan in Egypt.)
Numbers 13:33
There also we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak are part of the Nephilim); and we became like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight."
Deuteronomy 1:28
Where can we go up? Our brethren have made our hearts melt, saying, "The people are bigger and taller than we; the cities are large and fortified to heaven. And besides, we saw the sons of the Anakim there."'
Judges 1:20
Then they gave Hebron to Caleb, as Moses had promised; and he drove out from there the three sons of Anak.
: Jacob Ben Avraham Sun Oct 23, 2022 - 22:58:09
"and it came to be that when men began to increase on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of Elohim saw the daughters of men that they were fair, and they wives for themselves of all whom they chose. And YHVH said 'My Ruach will not strive with mankind forever in his going astray. He is flesh, and his days shall be 120. The Nephilim (in some translations, the giants) were on the earth in those days and when the sons of Elohim came into the daughters of men, they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men of old, men of name (fame). 6:1-4
There are two schools of thought when the issue of "B'nei Elohim" comes up. Some believe that it refers to the godly line of Seth mixing with the ungodly line of Kayin. The other school of thought which is more probable is that the "sons of God" refer to the fallen angels that were kicked out of heaven together with HaSatan. These "b'nei Elohim" somehow and someway transformed themselves into flesh and blood, and the offspring of those "demon-human" relationships were born "giants". The word "Nephilim" means "fallen ones". It does not mean "giants" ...however...those "mighty men of old" many were "giants" we have examples; Goliath of Gath, Og, king of Bashan.
There is archeological and paleontological evidence of a race of giants in the pre-diluvian world. Many fossil skeletons have been found some 20 and 30 feet tall. The Indians of the South-West claim that there was a race of red-haired giants who were cannibals, they could run after a herd of buffalo, catch one and bite off a leg and eat it on the run.
These giants were destroyed during the flood, however, their DNA still survived. Today there are "Giants" still around. They make millions of dollars on the football field, namely, the "N.Y. Giants"
Thank you so much for posting this portion here. ::tippinghat::
The color change to red and font size change within the quote are mine for emphasis.: DaveW Mon Oct 24, 2022 - 04:59:53
Or was re-created post flood in the same way it happened before:
Numbers 13:22
When they had gone up into the Negev, they came to Hebron where Ahiman, Sheshai and Talmai, the descendants of Anak were. (Now Hebron was built seven years before Zoan in Egypt.)
Numbers 13:33
There also we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak are part of the Nephilim); and we became like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight."
Deuteronomy 1:28
Where can we go up? Our brethren have made our hearts melt, saying, "The people are bigger and taller than we; the cities are large and fortified to heaven. And besides, we saw the sons of the Anakim there."'
Judges 1:20
Then they gave Hebron to Caleb, as Moses had promised; and he drove out from there the three sons of Anak.
Two references in two old testament books definitely talk of giants. As in "truly" big people.
I don't buy the fallen angels breeding with human women thing. Jesus said the angels neither marry nor are given in marriage. Such being the case, it is not even likely they were designed by God to procreate. If so, and they do, then God created two different moral standards for two of his different created beings concerning the same issue. Also something I do not see God doing. If premarital sex is a sin for one, it should before another as well. Perhaps if these angels married these women, which is another issue, it would be more acceptable. Then there is still the interspecies thing to consider. Which God apparently did not design creatures on earth to participate in.
Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Apart from this, there is the salvific issue of the consequences of God allowing fallen angels to interbreed with fallen humanity. We are in bad enough shape and in desperate need of salvation on our own, let alone being amalgamated with fallen angels. I don't think so. We are not even privy to seeing them, let alone having any intercourse with them, let alone sexual intercourse. Also, if fallen angels actually can produce offspring with humans, this would have to be according to God's own design. Which brings up several other issues. The humans giants of scripture were simply our antediluvian ancestors who were much larger than we presently are, as gobs of evidence suggest almost everything else was as well. Deep time, undirected, biological evolution is a crock. We, and everything else on this earth were far superior in size, to that which we are now. Not to mention no doubt a superior intellect and abilities for humanity as well, as evidenced with the many ancient ruins suggesting such rather than the primitiveness the false evolutionary narrative has created.
: Amo Mon Oct 24, 2022 - 07:01:42
I don't buy the fallen angels breeding with human women thing. Jesus said the angels neither marry nor are given in marriage.
C'mon Amo. Use the WHOLE verse:
Matthew 22:30
For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels
in heaven.Mark 12:25
For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels
in heaven.You left off the "in heaven" part. Clearly, if angels mated with human women they would not be "in heaven;" rather, they would have been the fallen satanic angels. And there is nothing to tell us that the human looking angels (not the ones with several faces and sets of wings) have genitalia or not. So it is pure assumption to say they are incapable of such an act.
There was a popular book in the first century named Enoch. It is obliquely referenced in a couple of places in the NT. In it (watchers section) it specifically says that the "sons of God" that sired the Nephelim were fallen angels. Our Lord said nothing to correct that understanding. So I believe it is at least a viable possibility.
: Amo Mon Oct 24, 2022 - 07:01:42
I don't buy the fallen angels breeding with human women thing. Jesus said the angels neither marry nor are given in marriage. Such being the case, it is not even likely they were designed by God to procreate. If so, and they do, then God created two different moral standards for two of his different created beings concerning the same issue. Also something I do not see God doing. If premarital sex is a sin for one, it should before another as well. Perhaps if these angels married these women, which is another issue, it would be more acceptable. Then there is still the interspecies thing to consider. Which God apparently did not design creatures on earth to participate in.
Amo,
Read what you wrote.
I don't buy the fallen angels breeding with human women thing.
WHY do you suppose they were fallen to begin with? ::doh::
And this:
Such being the case, it is not even likely they were designed by God to procreate.
Genesis 19
19 Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening, while Lot was sitting at the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he got up to meet them, and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 Then he said, "Here, please my lords, please turn aside to your servant's house, spend the night and wash your feet. Then you can get up early and go on your way."
But they said, "No. We will spend the night in the open plaza."
3 But he urged them strongly, so they turned aside to him and they came into his house. He prepared a feast for them and baked matzot, and they ate. 4 They had not yet lain down when the men of the city (the men of Sodom) surrounded the house—from youth to elderly, all the people without exception. 5 And they called out to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have relations with them!"
But Lot kept them safe.... and if angels were unable they well could have cut the men down to size with little effort... but is was as if they would be gang raped ... therefore they would have been able.
You have to remember on earth all these things had real bodies... not spiritual .... so I submit they could.
: DaveW Mon Oct 24, 2022 - 07:29:11
C'mon Amo. Use the WHOLE verse:
Matthew 22:30
For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.
Mark 12:25
For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.
You left off the "in heaven" part. Clearly, if angels mated with human women they would not be "in heaven;" rather, they would have been the fallen satanic angels. And there is nothing to tell us that the human looking angels (not the ones with several faces and sets of wings) have genitalia or not. So it is pure assumption to say they are incapable of such an act.
There was a popular book in the first century named Enoch. It is obliquely referenced in a couple of places in the NT. In it (watchers section) it specifically says that the "sons of God" that sired the Nephelim were fallen angels. Our Lord said nothing to correct that understanding. So I believe it is at least a viable possibility.
My point had nothing to do with where angels were or are, only that they neither marry or are given in marriage. Obviously not created to procreate. Unless it's like a 60's thing in heaven, everyone sleeping around with everyone else, and having children with multiple partners. Eventually with everyone I guess, since they have forever to make the rounds. I highly doubt such. I don't think God creates different moral standards for His creations. Nevertheless, this particular subject is necessarily about our speculations, rather specific thus saith the Lord's. I'm sharing my reasons for my views regarding that which I don't think we will know till all is revealed at His coming.
One more point while I am at it. If fallen angels can mate with humans, and actually are males, then why aren't they still doing such? If God will allow for such, then why isn't it happening anymore? What ever stopped it?
: Rella Mon Oct 24, 2022 - 07:44:18
Amo,
Read what you wrote.
I don't buy the fallen angels breeding with human women thing.
WHY do you suppose they were fallen to begin with? ::doh::
And this:
Such being the case, it is not even likely they were designed by God to procreate.
Genesis 19
19 Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening, while Lot was sitting at the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he got up to meet them, and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 Then he said, "Here, please my lords, please turn aside to your servant's house, spend the night and wash your feet. Then you can get up early and go on your way."
But they said, "No. We will spend the night in the open plaza."
3 But he urged them strongly, so they turned aside to him and they came into his house. He prepared a feast for them and baked matzot, and they ate. 4 They had not yet lain down when the men of the city (the men of Sodom) surrounded the house—from youth to elderly, all the people without exception. 5 And they called out to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have relations with them!"
But Lot kept them safe.... and if angels were unable they well could have cut the men down to size with little effort... but is was as if they would be gang raped ... therefore they would have been able.
You have to remember on earth all these things had real bodies... not spiritual .... so I submit they could.
If they weren't fallen before they did such, they no doubt were afterward. What, do you think God told them to mate with fallen humans? This was part of God's plan? What happened to that plan then? One of the apparent and immediate results was the universal moral decay and rebellion of humanity against God, resulting in the total destruction of not just humanity, but the entire existing world at the time. Was this according to God's plan and foreknowledge? I don't think so.
What God's angels can or are allowed by God to do, and what fallen angels can do, are two very different things. The one have the full power of God almighty behind them, the other are on their own. Spiritual bodies are real bodies.
Angels do not always appear as humans, if that is what you are song above. Lot did not keep the angels safe, they kept him safe. No number of people are a threat at any time to any angel carrying out God's will. They blinded the men who were trying to abuse them, until they wore themselves out trying to just find the door, and left. They probably did not destroy them then, simply because they awaited the execution of God's instruction, as instructed.
Again, if fallen angels could mate with human women and produce offspring, then why didn't and don't they continue to do so. That would be a great plan to spread sin and rebellion.
: Amo Tue Oct 25, 2022 - 06:31:38
If they weren't fallen before they did such, they no doubt were afterward. What, do you think God told them to mate with fallen humans? This was part of God's plan? What happened to that plan then? One of the apparent and immediate results was the universal moral decay and rebellion of humanity against God, resulting in the total destruction of not just humanity, but the entire existing world at the time. Was this according to God's plan and foreknowledge? I don't think so.
What God's angels can or are allowed by God to do, and what fallen angels can do, are two very different things. The one have the full power of God almighty behind them, the other are on their own. Spiritual bodies are real bodies.
Angels do not always appear as humans, if that is what you are song above. Lot did not keep the angels safe, they kept him safe. No number of people are a threat at any time to any angel carrying out God's will. They blinded the men who were trying to abuse them, until they wore themselves out trying to just find the door, and left. They probably did not destroy them then, simply because they awaited the execution of God's instruction, as instructed.
Again, if fallen angels could mate with human women and produce offspring, then why didn't and don't they continue to do so. That would be a great plan to spread sin and rebellion.
AND YOU DONT THINK THEY ARE NOT?
You are a literal bible believer.....
Genesis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
Some have taught that this refers to fallen angels interbreeding with human women to produce half-demon giants.
From Jude 1:6 KJV: And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
That means they no longer kept the form given to angels in Heaven and instead took on the form of humans on Earth. This is something angels have the ability to do, but only under God's direction for the purpose of ministering to us (Hebrews 1:14). Having human form gave them the ability to mate with human women.
https://www.bibleref.com/Jude/1/Jude-1-6.html#:~:text=Jude%201%3A6%2C%20KJV%3A%20And%20the%20angels%20which%20kept,darkness%20unto%20the%20judgment%20of%20the%20great%20day.
In this verse Jude refers to angels that rebelled against God's authority. They are charged with leaving their assigned role and leaving heaven. This statement may refer to the rebellion in heaven that Satan led against God in the dawn of human history (Isaiah 14:12–21; Ezekiel 28:12–19). He led as many as one third of the angels from their abode in heaven. Apparently, Satan and these angels were not content with the positions of authority God had assigned to them. They wanted greater authority and therefore rebelled against God. According to some interpreters, certain rebellious angels, called "sons of God" in Genesis 6:2, cohabited with "the daughters of man" (Genesis 6:1–4). Apparently as a result of this union, Nephilim, also translated as "fallen ones," or "giants" in English Bibles, appeared on earth.
Jude's reference to the rebellious angels may point to some other event known to Jude's readers, based on their familiarity with the non-biblical writings of Enoch. This book describes several instances of God's judgment against the fallen angels. At any rate, so far as Jude is using their example here, God punished those spiritual beings. He chained them in a place of darkness, where they await sentencing (2 Peter 2:4), likely when Satan is consigned to eternal punishment in the lake of burning sulfur (Revelation 20:7–10).
we learn that inter-marriage between angels and humans is forbidden by God because it produces a hybrid race that is neither angel nor human. In Genesis 6 these hybrids were called the nephilim, which means "fallen ones". Extra-Biblical sources tell us they had many supernatural abilities, which they used to lead humankind astray, and were a major cause of the Great Flood that destroyed all but 8 humans who had remained genetically pure.
WE all know Satan was cast out of heaven and 1/3 of the angels with him.
THOSE were fallen angels because evidently angels have free will to want to follow Satan...
OR... this possibility
https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-tools/booklets/angels-gods-messengers-and-spirit-army/did-angels-interbreed-with-women-to-produce-giants
Halley's Bible Handbook, a popular study resource, states that "the 'sons of God' (v. 2) are thought to have been either fallen angels . . . or leaders in Sethite families [those descended from Adam's son Seth] who intermarried with godless descendants of [Adam's son] Cain" (25th ed., 2000, p. 96).
And hence these giants came from normal sized people ::doh:: I don't think so.
The Bible is very clear on this. Genesis 6:2 says, "The sons of God (angels) saw that the daughters of men were beautiful and they married any of them they chose." Then Genesis 6:4 tells us, " The Nephilim were on the Earth in those days – and also afterward – when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them."[/size]
: DaveW Mon Oct 24, 2022 - 07:29:11
C'mon Amo. Use the WHOLE verse:
Matthew 22:30
For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.
C'mon Dave. Use the WHOLE verse:
For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.God is the one in heaven, not necessarily the angels. The angels travel back and forth. That's what angels do.
::noworries::
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Tue Oct 25, 2022 - 17:54:01
C'mon Dave. Use the WHOLE verse:
For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.
God is the one in heaven, not necessarily the angels. The angels travel back and forth. That's what angels do.
I am using the NASB 95 There is no "of God" in there.
: Amo Tue Oct 25, 2022 - 06:09:00
My point had nothing to do with where angels were or are, only that they neither marry or are given in marriage. Obviously not created to procreate.
That is a huge assumption. Angels have a lot of power that they typically do not use like striking whole cities blind. (like Sodom)
The general tone of God's creation was everything to reproduce after its own kind. Why would angels be different in their initial creation?
One more point while I am at it. If fallen angels can mate with humans, and actually are males, then why aren't they still doing such? If God will allow for such, then why isn't it happening anymore? What ever stopped it?
How do we know it stopped? Do you have proof?
: Amo Tue Oct 25, 2022 - 06:09:00
My point had nothing to do with where angels were or are, only that they neither marry or are given in marriage. Obviously not created to procreate. Unless it's like a 60's thing in heaven, everyone sleeping around with everyone else, and having children with multiple partners.
::doh:: We, or at least I am not talking about what angels do in heaven. Jesus stated, "For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven." Jesus personally stated that marriage would not exist in heaven. And God would forbid sex out of marriage in heaven.
But we know that angels have come to earth. In Hebrews 13:12
We have been told to be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
That means they looked like us, walked like us and talked like us. The 2 that showed up in Sodom and Gomorra certainly did.
In Rev we were told that Satan and 1/3 of the angels.. his followers were cast to earth.
The idea of one third of the angels falling from heaven is found in Revelation 12:4: "His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth." This passage is often interpreted to mean Satan and a third of angels were removed from heaven to earth.
Did they all go around appearing as demons or did some end up looking just like us?
You seem to be hung up on this marriage thing. We have been told there will be not marriage in heaven, therefore no procreation.
But it is irrational to believe that a fallen angel, walking as a man, would not take advantage of getting his jollies from a lovely young woman on earth.
Also is irrational to think that none of them ever married... especially if she was lovely and said NO.
Also is irrational to think that Satan would not have it in his plans to corrupt and destroy God's earthly creations. He did so with Eve.... notice, it was not Adam the man he went after but the woman. He did so with Job, with restrictions from God.
So for those fallen angels to breed with women back then would only be part of his plan.
He could not conquer heaven or even do as he wished... but he definitely had designs to conquer earth and destroy the people of God .
I submit... though cannot prove... that one of the reasons God sent the flood was because of the Satanic angels breeding with women and the resulting Nephilim. We know the entire population of mankind had become evil and wicked and God decided to bring a flood to the earth to destroy everyone but Noah and his family.
How and why did they become so wicked? Satanic angel interference is quite logical to assume.
I am not going into pre/post flood Nephilim as that is an extensive subject for another thread....
BUT I will close with ... I believe that Satan's fallen angels, as human form, are very much active in the world today. Breeding at will.
: Rella Wed Oct 26, 2022 - 07:14:36
I submit... though cannot prove... that one of the reasons God sent the flood was because of the Satanic angels breeding with women and the resulting Nephilim. We know the entire population of mankind had become evil and wicked and God decided to bring a flood to the earth to destroy everyone but Noah and his family.
How and why did they become so wicked? Satanic angel interference is quite logical to assume.
Here you go...
[Chapter 6]
1 And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto 2 them beautiful and comely daughters. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men 3 and beget us children.' And Semjaza, who was their leader, said unto them: 'I fear ye will not 4 indeed agree to do this deed, and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin.' And they all answered him and said: 'Let us all swear an oath, and all bind ourselves by mutual imprecations 5 not to abandon this plan but to do this thing.' Then sware they all together and bound themselves 6 by mutual imprecations upon it. And they were in all two hundred; who descended in the days of Jared on the summit of Mount Hermon, and they called it Mount Hermon, because they had sworn 7 and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. And these are the names of their leaders: Samlazaz, their leader, Araklba, Rameel, Kokablel, Tamlel, Ramlel, Danel, Ezeqeel, Baraqijal, 8 Asael, Armaros, Batarel, Ananel, Zaqiel, Samsapeel, Satarel, Turel, Jomjael, Sariel. These are their chiefs of tens.
[Chapter 7]
1 And all the others together with them took unto themselves wives, and each chose for himself one, and they began to go in unto them and to defile themselves with them, and they taught them charms 2 and enchantments, and the cutting of roots, and made them acquainted with plants. And they 3 became pregnant, and they bare great giants, whose height was three thousand ells: Who consumed 4 all the acquisitions of men. And when men could no longer sustain them, the giants turned against 5 them and devoured mankind. And they began to sin against birds, and beasts, and reptiles, and 6 fish, and to devour one another's flesh, and drink the blood. Then the earth laid accusation against the lawless ones.
[Chapter 8]
1 And Azazel taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals of the earth and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all 2 colouring tinctures. And there arose much godlessness, and they committed fornication, and they 3 were led astray, and became corrupt in all their ways. Semjaza taught enchantments, and root-cuttings, 'Armaros the resolving of enchantments, Baraqijal (taught) astrology, Kokabel the constellations, Ezeqeel the knowledge of the clouds, Araqiel the signs of the earth, Shamsiel the signs of the sun, and Sariel the course of the moon. And as men perished, they cried, and their cry went up to heaven . . .
Read more (https://www.ccel.org/c/charles/otpseudepig/enoch/ENOCH_1.HTM)
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Wed Oct 26, 2022 - 08:59:09
Here you go...
[Chapter 6]
1 And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto 2 them beautiful and comely daughters. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men 3 and beget us children.' And Semjaza, who was their leader, said unto them: 'I fear ye will not 4 indeed agree to do this deed, and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin.' And they all answered him and said: 'Let us all swear an oath, and all bind ourselves by mutual imprecations 5 not to abandon this plan but to do this thing.' Then sware they all together and bound themselves 6 by mutual imprecations upon it. And they were in all two hundred; who descended in the days of Jared on the summit of Mount Hermon, and they called it Mount Hermon, because they had sworn 7 and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. And these are the names of their leaders: Samlazaz, their leader, Araklba, Rameel, Kokablel, Tamlel, Ramlel, Danel, Ezeqeel, Baraqijal, 8 Asael, Armaros, Batarel, Ananel, Zaqiel, Samsapeel, Satarel, Turel, Jomjael, Sariel. These are their chiefs of tens.
[Chapter 7]
1 And all the others together with them took unto themselves wives, and each chose for himself one, and they began to go in unto them and to defile themselves with them, and they taught them charms 2 and enchantments, and the cutting of roots, and made them acquainted with plants. And they 3 became pregnant, and they bare great giants, whose height was three thousand ells: Who consumed 4 all the acquisitions of men. And when men could no longer sustain them, the giants turned against 5 them and devoured mankind. And they began to sin against birds, and beasts, and reptiles, and 6 fish, and to devour one another's flesh, and drink the blood. Then the earth laid accusation against the lawless ones.
[Chapter 8]
1 And Azazel taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals of the earth and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all 2 colouring tinctures. And there arose much godlessness, and they committed fornication, and they 3 were led astray, and became corrupt in all their ways. Semjaza taught enchantments, and root-cuttings, 'Armaros the resolving of enchantments, Baraqijal (taught) astrology, Kokabel the constellations, Ezeqeel the knowledge of the clouds, Araqiel the signs of the earth, Shamsiel the signs of the sun, and Sariel the course of the moon. And as men perished, they cried, and their cry went up to heaven . . .
Read more (https://www.ccel.org/c/charles/otpseudepig/enoch/ENOCH_1.HTM)
Thank you,
Truly an interesting read... and is more explanatory even though it is said to be a parable. Enoch was not included within the Holy Bible. But then ... I can imagine the disbelief even though it is far more descriptive then just what Genesis tells us.
6 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
: Rella Wed Oct 26, 2022 - 10:06:48
Truly an interesting read... and is more explanatory even though it is said to be a parable.
FWIW, I don't think this part of Enoch is meant to be a parable.
: Rella Wed Oct 26, 2022 - 10:06:48
Thank you,
Truly an interesting read... and is more explanatory even though it is said to be a parable. Enoch was not included within the Holy Bible. But then ... I can imagine the disbelief even though it is far more descriptive then just what Genesis tells us.
Yes, quite interesting. Even more interesting is the fact that until the late 1800s this book was "lost." I put that in quotes because European theologians and scholars considered it so, only having a few fragments to see; less than 5% of the actual text. BUT - our brothers to the south, specifically the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, had it in entirety as part of their biblical canon all along. So, rightly or wrongly, it was/is part of their Holy Bible.
Lost indeed.
: DaveW Wed Oct 26, 2022 - 12:13:05
Yes, quite interesting. Even more interesting is the fact that until the late 1800s this book was "lost." I put that in quotes because European theologians and scholars considered it so, only having a few fragments to see; less than 5% of the actual text. BUT - our brothers to the south, specifically the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, had it in entirety as part of their biblical canon all along. So, rightly or wrongly, it was/is part of their Holy Bible.
Lost indeed.
A copy was also unearthed among the Dead Sea scrolls, confirming that the book is actually THAT old.
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Wed Oct 26, 2022 - 14:40:55
A copy was also unearthed among the Dead Sea scrolls, confirming that the book is actually THAT old.
Yes, but again it was only a fragment. Like most of the Dead Sea scrolls. I think the only documents that were complete were the charter for the city of Qumran and the book of Isaiah.
: DaveW Thu Oct 27, 2022 - 12:24:05
Yes, but again it was only a fragment. Like most of the Dead Sea scrolls. I think the only documents that were complete were the charter for the city of Qumran and the book of Isaiah.
Uh, more like multiple copies.
https://bibleask.org/what-is-the-book-of-enoch-why-it-is-not-in-the-bible/
Quotes below from link above. Emphasis is mine.
What is the book of Enoch? Why it is not in the Bible?
The Book of Enoch
The first Book of Enoch, also named the Ethiopic Book of Enoch, is a pseudepigraphal work (not included in any canon of scripture) whose only complete extant version is an Ethiopic translation of a previous Greek translation formed in Palestine from the original Hebrew or Aramaic.
I Enoch is a collection of few separate works, most of which are apocalyptic. Its oldest part is the "Apocalypse of Weeks," recorded a little while before the Maccabean uprising of 167 bc. Other parts, specifically those that have to do with astronomical and cosmological speculations, are hard to date. Because of its perspective on messianism, celibacy, and the state of the soul after death, sections of I Enoch may have come from the Essene community of Jews at Qumrān.
However, no fragments of the longest portion of the work (chapters 37–71), were discovered among the Qumrān writings. This has caused scholars to believe that this part was probably recorded in the 2nd century ad by a Jewish Christian who wanted to diffuse his own eschatological ideas with the authority of Enoch, and attached his writings to the four older apocryphal Enoch writings. Fragments of similar writings were discovered at Qumran such as the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs, a pseudepigraphical work of the dying commands of the twelve sons of Jacob in the 2nd century ad.
The fragments of the book of Enoch were brought to Europe by James Bruce in the late 18th century. Afterwards, they were translated into English in the 19th century. It is interesting to note that no scholar believes that this book was truly been written by Enoch.
Enoch in the Bible
According to the Bible, Enoch, the great grandfather of Noah, was the son of Jared (Genesis 5:18). He lived seven generations after Adam (Genesis 5:1-24). He was a holy man, who walked closely with God. The Bible tells us that he did not die. Instead, it says, the Lord "took him away" (Genesis 5:24; Hebrews 11:5). Thus, he is one of the two people that were taken up to heaven without dying [the other was Elijah (2 Kings 2:1-18)].
In the Bible, we see the Book of Enoch referenced to in Jude: "Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: 'See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him'" (Jude 14-15). However, even this quote doesn't say that the Book of Enoch we have today is the same book. Nor can we say it was inspired or written by Enoch himself. The next few passages we'll see why.
Not Part of the Bible
There is little doubt that Enoch made the statements in Jude 1:14. But that doesn't mean that he authored the entire book (or any of it). The book was not accepted in the canon of Holy books because of its flawed doctrines that don't line up with Biblical truths. Here are some of the errors it contains:
The Book of Enoch claims that a demon named Gadreel led Eve astray. This demon later introduced weaponry to mankind. But the Bible states that the angel Satan is the one that used the serpent to deceive Eve in the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 28:13).
Further, the Book of Enoch presents the story of how 200 angels, or Watchers, rebelled against heaven. Then, these fallen angels descended to the plains of earth, married human wives, and fathered the Nephilim. The union of these angles with women produced 450-feet tall giants (chapter 7:12-15).
These fallen angels asked Enoch to plead on their behalf with God after He announced their final judgement. However, this teaching is not scriptural. Jesus clearly taught that angels do not marry. We find this in Mark 12:25: "For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven."
Also, the first chapter of the book, which claims to have been written before the flood, describes summer and winter. However, the Bible says that the seasons came after the flood: "And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried... While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease" (Genesis 8:14 & 22). Before the flood the earth was watered by dew (Genesis 2:6)..........................................................
Conclusion
The Book of Enoch was examined and tested by Bible scholars, who determined that it was not inspired or written by Enoch. As a result, this book was not included in the Holy Canon. It appears that the book was authored by someone else after the flood. Most Christian Churches exclude the Book of Enoch from the Bible. Yet, in spite of the evidence against its inspiration, some early Christian groups, like the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, still accept sections or all of 1 Enoch as inspired.
As I have stated many times over on these boards, backed up with observable scientific evidence, at one time the plants and animals of this world's past were far larger than they are now. This was not due to interbreeding with angels or anything else not of this earth. It is just the way it was in the past, as I understand it, pre-flood. Accordingly as well, there have been reports of giant human remains all over the world through the past. Many documented in news reports to this day. The evidence of this seems to always vanish. Which suggests two different conspiracy theories, the camps of which most of us fall within. One being either a global hoax executed by many different people, in many different lands, and at many different times throughout history. The other being a global effort to eradicate such evidence in support of this or that narrative which does not allow for the same, or simple hate for anything that might support biblical testimony. The enemy of all souls and his minions certainly fitting into the latter of the two mentioned.
Nevertheless, the evidence that this world was at one time very different than at present, and filled with much larger creatures than now inhabit it, is overwhelming. There is no need to add humans interbreeding with angels to the scenario, in order to have much larger humans in the past than we have today. It seems likely when viewed along side the extensive evidence already mentioned concerning many other plants and animals. Let each make what they will of such.
https://www.genesispark.com/exhibits/early-earth/larger-organisms/
Article below from link above.
Larger Organisms in the Past
Often larger organisms are healthier and longer-lived than smaller specimens of the same kind. Certainly environmental factors (particularly nutrition) and genetic variations play an important role in determining a creature's size and its lifespan. However, there are many creationists who believe that the larger ancestors of modern organisms (as seen in the fossil record) provide important evidence of decline in biological systems. Many years ago Henry Morris wrote, "[M]ost modern creatures are represented in the fossil record by larger and more highly developed individuals than their modern counterparts" (Morris, H, "The Power of Energy," CRSQ, 1964, pp. 18-23.) The early earth would have provided the optimal environment for healthy organisms (with specialized original biomes created directly by God). Perhaps part of the explanation for gigantism was the atmospheric conditions of the pre-Flood world. But we know that some giant species persisted even in the centuries after the Flood (ice age megafauna, for example). Undoubtedly, biological kinds continued to decline as they do today. With some possible exceptions (like the blue whale and African Elephant) the fossilized remains of the various animal kinds are significantly larger than their modern-day counterparts demonstrating a general trend of devolution over time.
While modern medicine and improved nutrition have actually reversed the downward trend in human lifespans, human genetic mutations continue to accumulate and new diseases pose fresh challenges. Those ancient plants and animals would not have suffered from the genetic deterioration that has accumulated since that time. In Romans 8:21-22 the Bible discusses the bondage to corrupting forces that was introduced with the fall of man and the curse of Genesis 3. But the scripture also tells of a time when men lived to be many hundreds of years old, giants were common on the earth, and the human genome was able to withstand extensive in-breeding (multiple genetic bottlenecks). Various animals can grow to indeterminate size, so they will become giants if they live long enough. How long would a dinosaur live in the pre-Flood world? Even today some reptiles live longer than humans. For example the tortoise Harriette that Charles Darwin brought back from the Galapagos Islands lived till 2006, dying at the ripe age of 175. If the dinosaurs lived significantly longer than humans on the early earth, some of the created organisms may have lasted right up till the Flood! Their longevity and reproductive capacity (as compared to mammals) could explain why the primeval world quickly became an "Age of Reptiles."
But the dinosaurs were certainly not the only creatures that grew to fantastic size on the early earth. A similar reptile, the crocodilian Sarcosuchus Imperator, grew to over 40 feet in length. Notice on right the Sarcosuchus skull compared to a modern crocodile skull. Fossils found in what is now the Giant Penguin & Skierdesert of Niger tell of a hyper-crocodile that would have feasted on dinosaurs in what was then a verdant river valley. Oftentimes we can identify fossilized plants and animals as closely allied to still living species. For example, fossil ferns have been discovered that are in the same family as modern ones, but the fossil ferns are the size of trees! On the early earth, horsetails once shot up over thirty feet tall. In 2018, a fossilized penguin was discovered in New Zealand. Taller than the modern Emperor Penguin, the penguins, named Crossvallia waiparensis, stood over 5 feet and weighed about 180 pounds. By comparison, the largest modern penguin species stands between 3 and 4 feet tall.
There were huge cockroaches, ants, crickets, grasshoppers and even monstrous spiders that thrived in a land of endless summer. Dragonflies with nearly three foot wingspan skimmed over swamps in which eight-foot beavers, monster frogs, and sixty-foot cattails flourished. Beetles once grew to be the size of a baseball mitt and climbed up conifers that towered a hundred feet high. Australia's iconic koala weighs as much as 31 pounds. Compare Cartoon man & Giant wormthis to the ancient forest canopies where a 150 pound marsupial, called Nimbadon, ruled. The fossil lungfish is twice the size of modern lungfish. Megapiranha, a fossil piranha discovered in Argentina was about 3 feet long–a beast four times as big as piranhas living today. Modern mayflies may sport a 10 inch wingspan at the most, but a primeval mayfly Bojophlebia prokopi had an 18 inch wingspan. A giant sand worm was discovered in Devon, England. These giant worms would have grown up to 3 feet long and 6 inches wide. Their large burrowing holes indicate that the creatures would have traveled beneath the surface, not unlike the modern earthworms used for fishing.
In his delightful book on fossil giants, Monumental Monsters, Vance Nelson demonstrates how creatures from all over the world have decline in size and diversity vs their ancient relatives. For example, the fossil raccoon Chapalmalania altaefrontis, would have dwarfed living raccoons. With its short tail and 5-foot body, it would have looked a bit like a giant panda bear. Pelorovis is an extinct genus of African cattle that resembled the Cape Buffalo, but sported a 10 ft horn spread! To the upper left is pictured the skull of the giant hyena-like animal Dinocrocuta. This fossil monster would have weighed in at about 850 pounds, nearly 4 times the size of the largest modern hyenas. An unlikely fossil was discovered in 2009 in a Colombian coal mine...the largest snake on record. The monster, called Titanoboa, was about 45 feet long and would have weighed over a ton! By comparison, the Guinness record for a snake found alive is just over 25 feet. The Australian fossil Varanus prisca (aka Megalania prisca) demonstrates dramatic decrease in size of these monitor lizards. While the extant Komodo Dragon might reach 10 ft in length, its ancestral relative would have been about 26 ft long. Wombat and seacow fossils similarly testify to giants in the past.
Gigantism seems to be a major feature of the fossil record. Fossil hunters in Uruguay uncovered the remains of a one ton rat creature (quite like the living South American Pacarana). The rodent would have been roughly the size of a small automobile and its head alone would have been larger than a cow! Another oversized rodent, the giant guinea pig, grew as big as a modern rhinoceros; while the ancient rhino grew to be the biggest mammal to ever walk on land. The large male white rhino might grow up to 4 tons, but a Paraceratherium, an extinct hornless rhino, found in China, grew up to 24 tons! Tracks of an eight-foot-long monster millipede were discovered in New Mexico in 2005. Spencer Lucas, paleontology Paracatherium vs Modern Rhinocurator at the New Mexico Museum of Natural History, commented, "They just couldn't survive at that size in modern air... For an insect to get that big, you'd need to have a lot more oxygen in the air." (Quoted in Vorenberg, Sue, "This Bug's a Big One," Tribune Reporter, April 14, 2005.) Then in 2021 a nearly 9 ft millipede fossil was discovered in a cliff in northern England! Fossils of a 10 pound toad, a 13 ft high camel, a giant, bear-sized dog, and an 8 ft platypus all tell the story of larger organisms in the past. The ancient Steppe Mammoth weighed as much as 31,000 pounds in comparison to the largest elephant on record, a 24,000 pound bull that was killed in Angola. Modern coyotes are smaller than their Ice Age ancestors. Dunkleosteus & scuba manThe remains of a giant iguana were found in sediments on the Fijian island of Viti Levu. It is more than twice the size of the living iguana. The remains of giant baboons were discovered on the plains of Kenya. Weighing about 140 pounds, they would be twice the size of modern baboons. In ancient times the ferocious-looking, giant armored fish, Dinicthys terrelli, grew to approximately 30 feet long, with its head and neck covered in solid armor-like bone and sporting four scissor-like teeth at the front of its jaw. The fossilized remains of an ancient sea scorpion found in NY measures 6 ft in length. It seems like monstrous creatures existed in every ecosystem on the early earth!
According to Guinness, the biggest hedgehog around today are the European hedgehog; and the largest on record is a porker that weighed just under 10 pounds. But the fossilized hedgehog Deinogalerix, which was discovered in Italy, was a huge hog that would have been 5 times the size of the European hedgehog. To the right is a comparison between a bald eagle and the giant Teratorn bird (Argentavis magnificens) with a wingspan of 25 ft (Giant Moacomparison after Campbell, Kenneth E., "The World's Largest Flying Bird," Terra, Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County, 19:2, 1980.) The living bird with the largest wingspan is the wandering albatross, which has about 12 ft between wing tips. But the Pelagornis sandersi, an ancient albatross whose remains were found in South Carolina, had a 24 ft wingspan. The extinct giant Moa (Dinornus maximus) from New Zealand stood an incredible 12ft tall (left). The South American seriemas are long-legged birds that forage on foot and prefer to run from danger rather than fly. They grow to about 35 inches in height. But the closely-related bird Brontis (whose fossils are found in South America) was a 900 pound "terror bird" who would have stood over 9 feet tall! Below are two of the fossils displayed at Mt. Blanco Fossil Museum: the skull of a giant salamander and horns of an ancient bison, measuring 8 foot tip-to-tip. Also below is a huge turtle skeleton exhibited at Yale's Peabody Museum. It is 11 feet long, 15 feet wide and would have weighed about 3 tons. Scientists in Spain found fossils of a mega-shrew that was capable of shooting venom out of blood-colored teeth. The researchers describe this extinct shrew, Dolinasorex glyphodon, as "giant" beacause it had a body mass of about 2 ounces, four times heavier than a modern water shrew. Massive deer, lemurs, kangaroo, and donkeys have all been found in the fossil record. Even an inch-long, Jurassic fossilized flea has been discovered that in China (bottom right).
The Entelodont (left) is an extinct creature that has been called the "Terminator Pig" because of its size and ferocious appearance. Looking something like a massively overgrown warthog, the Terminator Pig would have weighed up to 2,000 pounds. But unlike today's farm pigs that grow fat and lazy, the Entelodont would have been an omnivorous apex predator in the North American plains. There is some disagreement about exactly how to classify this beast.
The picture to the right is of artist William Munns and his re-creation of the giant ape Gigantopithecus. Based on teeth and jaw fragments found in China, the great ape is thought to be 10-12 feet tall. Some people believe something like this creature still Modern Armadillo vs Glyptodontexist in the form of Big Foot. The giant South American armadillo grows to about 70 pounds. Compare this to the Glyptodont, the ancient South American armadillo that was as big as a automobile and weighed up to two tons! Then there is the example of the saber-toothed mesonyx. It was a wolf, somewhat larger than a Great Dane, and at least twice as large as a modern timber wolf. In 2017 an ancient wolf-sized otter species was unearthed in China. Siamogale melilutra is more than twice the size of the modern giant South American river otter.
Discovered in 2011 on the Spanish island of Minorca were king-sized rabbit remains. Meike Kohler Giant Bunny pictureThe giant bunny weighed in at 26 pounds, about six times bigger than the common European rabbit (see the comparison to the left). The smilodon, a large saber-toothed tiger, was bigger and more ferocious than than any modern tiger. Remains of a giant short-faced bear skull was found in South Dakota. It was one third bigger than today's largest grizzly bears, standing at about 11ft. Today it is rare to find a sloth that weighs 20 pounds, but the remains of the giant ground sloth Megatherium have been found in South American caves. It grew up to 4 tons and stood at 18 feet tall. So it didn't need to climb trees to get plenty of leaves to eat. It seems that such gigantism was common among mammals even up through the Equus giganteus2Ice Age. The conventional picture of horse evolution from a small deer-like ancestor to today's large horses needs to be reevaluated. The largest horse in recorded history, a Shire gelding named Mammoth, was born in 1848 and eventually weighed 3,300 lbs. But the fossil horse Equus Giganteus, a huge zebra-like animal, would have weighed well over 3,500 pounds, much more than any modern zebra!
Fossil marine predators that resemble shrimp have been found in Morocco. But these ancient anomalocaridids were over 3 ft long. Perhaps the most terrifying of all the ancient monsters, the fossil shark megalodon grew to be thirty times as big as the largest reported modern great white shark. The fossil record is replete with examples of immense creatures that flourished in the past. That is not to say there aren't also smaller varieties of these animals among the rock layers. Some preserved remains of beavers, rodents, elephants, and birds of prey would be close in size to their modern populations. There are even quite a number of smaller dinosaurs. Animal kinds throughout history seem to have enjoyed the capacity for a wide variation in sizes (like modern dogs). The point is that, when we can identify comparable kinds, there were considerably larger varieties, as a rule, in the distant past than we have alive anywhere today. And as far as we can tell, these are not outliers, freak cases of giantism. The norm of the population was simply larger in the past. With our current understanding of information theory, this large-scale trend of genetic entropy over the ages should not come as a surprise to us.
Further evidence of biological decline comes from a California company, Ambergene, which has patented a process of sterilizing amber samples, grinding them up, and then growing the ancient microbes found in it. The company's research leads them to believe that these ancient microbes will yield more potent and powerful agricultural applications than modern-day descendants. They even isolated a yeast entombed in an ancient bee, grew it and found it very "active" as they brewed amber beer! The evidence suggests that biological deterioration and environmental degradation contributed to devolution (a decline in fitness, body mass, overall health, and longevity) through the ages.
God is the one in heaven, not necessarily the angels. The angels travel back and forth. That's what angels do.
They travel to the Earth because it is not their primary abode. The fallen angels are cast down to the Earth because it is not their home. They get kicked out of their home. Are you claiming that angels are some sort of cosmic transients that don't have a place to live?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxFA9c-iv38
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwVo9LP8TMo&t=553s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2geY0_CGWeI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lphz_zY0UXs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-N3NYOL0c0
Another thought provoking video from Mystery History.
: Amo Sun Dec 18, 2022 - 14:11:59
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-N3NYOL0c0
Another thought provoking video from Mystery History.
I enjoy seeing these as they are places I will never see in my lifetime.
But for some unexplained reason, things that defy the explainable make me uneasy.
Oh, not enough to stop looking but still uneasy, none the less
: Rella Mon Dec 19, 2022 - 06:31:23
I enjoy seeing these as they are places I will never see in my lifetime.
But for some unexplained reason, things that defy the explainable make me uneasy.
Oh, not enough to stop looking but still uneasy, none the less
It could be worse. You could feel real comfy and at home, in this ever increasingly creepy world.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wkdy23MANqY
Giant almost everything naturally existing in the past, as evidenced all over the world. Yet for some reason, giant humans of the past, have to be the result of interbreeding with angels or aliens. What's up with that?
: Amo Fri Dec 23, 2022 - 04:47:21
It could be worse. You could feel real comfy and at home, in this ever increasingly creepy world.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wkdy23MANqY
Giant almost everything naturally existing in the past, as evidenced all over the world. Yet for some reason, giant humans of the past, have to be the result of interbreeding with angels or aliens. What's up with that?
Yep... comfy in this subarctic weather brought to us courtesy of global warming...... NOT!
Not being a believer in aliens ( space) other then I know there is something to the UFO phenom but am fairly certain they are not Martians but likely spiritual.... ( most likely demonic) ... but not getting into that.... I feel they call the angel end of things because of the Nephilim....
NOW... in my quest of looking for provable proof of an actual giant I ran into this article. This is an interesting read.Including through the credits.
Following is the link as it is very long and a lot to quote here with the credits.
Giants in the Bible
by Tim Chaffey on February 22, 2012
Featured in Answers in Depth
Also available in Español
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Introduction: Giants in the Bible
The Bible describes many individuals as giants, and it also mentions several giant people groups. Interpreters have speculated about the size of these people with guesses ranging anywhere from 6 feet to more than 30 feet in height. Also, a great deal of misinformation about giants in the Bible has been proliferated on the Internet along with some fake pictures of supposed giants. So did these giants really exist? If so, how big were they?
https://answersingenesis.org/bible-characters/giants-in-the-bible/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K80JebExyEY&t=1120s
More problems with mainstream narratives.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCYMAs4cqRU
More agitation about government and Smithsonian coverups.
: Amo Sat Dec 24, 2022 - 13:26:18
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCYMAs4cqRU
More agitation about government and Smithsonian coverups.
Amo,
Odd question here.
Why do you think there are so many "cover ups " on this sort of thing?
We know... and we believe... at least I do and am certain that you do also or you would not be on GC... that we are grounded in what is written in the four corners of the Holy bible.
Albeit testy at times from differing understandings and personal beliefs and following the basic roots of our chosen "religious"
guidelines....
What I would like to know is... with so much over the past century plus or so that has been discovered, and not all has been a fake... what the purpose is of all the coverups (ie Smithsonian etc) ?
Any ideas?
Merry Christmas to you and yours
Merry Christmas to you and yours as well.
I think the devil knows that if too many people begin to believe and understand the truth in relation to actual evidence supporting the holy scriptures all over and throughout the earth, and many begin searching and properly interpreting such as it actually is, the proof would be almost overwhelming to other false theories. He therefore has , does, and will continue to have his agents deny and or destroy as much compelling evidence as possible. Not to mention, come up with and undyingly support many false theories.
The evidence is and has been absolutely everywhere all over the world. The enemy has just been very busy sowing his seeds of doubt, creating false theories to replace the truth, and destroying as much evidence as possible.
: Rella Sun Dec 25, 2022 - 07:33:19
Why do you think there are so many "cover ups " on this sort of thing?
It isn't cover ups, people just aren't gullible enough to believe this nonsense.
Like UFOs, that the government NOW has admitted exist? Whoa! Now they're NOT nonsense? Interesting. Just because a deceptive government agrees to release the truth, or ADMIT to it.
The government also tried to keep it quiet about the ghosts in Summerville, Oklahoma.
Did they succeed?
: Alan Sun Dec 25, 2022 - 10:10:58
It isn't cover ups, people just aren't gullible enough to believe this nonsense.
That statement contradicts the reality of this thread itself, and a whole lot of people throughout recorded history.
Abraham Lincoln (emphasis is mine) -
But still there is more. It calls up the indefinite past. When Columbus first sought this continent---when Christ suffered on the cross---when Moses led Israel through the Red-Sea---nay, even, when Adam first came from the hand of his Maker---then as now, Niagara was roaring here. The eyes of that species of extinct giants, whose bones fill the mounds of America, have gazed on Niagara, as ours do now. Co[n]temporary with the whole race of men, and older than the first man, Niagara is strong, and fresh to-day as ten thousand years ago. The Mammoth and Mastadon---now so long dead, that fragments of their monstrous bones, alone testify, that they ever lived, have gazed on Niagara. In that long---long time, never still for a single moment. Never dried, never froze, never slept, never rested,
: Alan Sun Dec 25, 2022 - 10:10:58
It isn't cover ups, people just aren't gullible enough to believe this nonsense.
ALAN!
Prove it is nonsense.
Oh pardon me... I forget. Everything in the bible that is talked of that man's mind is unwilling to accept, or believe is an Allegory or an infamous "Parable"... OR the not often called but the ubiquitous Metaphor
( And mentioning from above... but obvious not read, or possibly just a cursory scan...following is the link that I did not copy and paste as it is very long and a lot to quote here with the credits.)
From the link...
Many modern scholars scoff at the idea that there could have been giant warriors in excess of seven and a half feet tall. Consequently, the biblical dimensions of these people have often been downplayed or ignored. However, the biblical data about these people can be trusted because it is in the Word of God. Furthermore, other ancient sources describe giants, and the Anakim are even mentioned as dwelling in the land of Canaan.
Giants in the Bible
by Tim Chaffey on February 22, 2012
Featured in Answers in Depth
Introduction: Giants in the Bible
The Bible describes many individuals as giants, and it also mentions several giant people groups. Interpreters have speculated about the size of these people with guesses ranging anywhere from 6 feet to more than 30 feet in height. Also, a great deal of misinformation about giants in the Bible has been proliferated on the Internet along with some fake pictures of supposed giants. So did these giants really exist? If so, how big were they?
https://answersingenesis.org/bible-characters/giants-in-the-bible/
BTW... the Smithsonian was very definitely a cover up[/size]
: Rella Tue Dec 27, 2022 - 11:31:34
ALAN!
Prove it is nonsense.
Prove that a myth is nonsense? That's like asking to prove Leprechauns are fake. rofl How about you prove it's genuine? That is the usual way in which truth is derived. I doubt you can though, other than to post a series of articles from weird Christian websites.
: Alan Tue Dec 27, 2022 - 12:45:05
Prove that a myth is nonsense? That's like asking to prove Leprechauns are fake. rofl How about you prove it's genuine? That is the usual way in which truth is derived. I doubt you can though, other than to post a series of articles from weird Christian websites.
To not belabor this as your mind is unchanging....
What makes a giant in your mind? Would you believe Josephus?
The Amorites are mentioned more than 80 times in Scripture, and early on, some were allied with Abraham (Genesis 14:13). They were descendants of Noah's grandson Canaan (Genesis 10:15–16). Although the Bible does not provide this information, the Jewish general-turned-historian Josephus gives the name of their ancestor as Amorreus.1 While the Amorites are mentioned in the same contexts as other giants a few times, they are specifically described as giants in the Minor Prophets.
Through Amos, God clearly stated that the Amorites were generally very tall and strong. Some may downplay the description of the Amorites in this passage, since these verses employ figurative language, but there are some good reasons to take this passage in a straightforward manner.2 ( So AMOS either lied or did not understand God's inspiration?)
The idea that the Amorites were giants is supported by the report of the spies whom Moses sent through the land of Canaan. The Amorites were one of the people groups they saw (Numbers 13:29), and they claimed that "all the people whom we saw in it are men of great stature" (Numbers 13:32). It is telling that in their response, Joshua and Caleb did not challenge the size of the land's inhabitants (Numbers 14:6–9).
Further: And the bible also says that Giants have six fingers on each hand and six on each foot. Totally they can have 24 fingers. Normally humans have twenty fingers, five each hands-on and five each on each foot. We can see the proof in the bible from the verses
1 Chronicles 20:6 KJV
6 And yet again there was war at Gath, where was a man of great stature, whose fingers and toes were four and twenty, six on each hand, and six on each foot and he also was the son of the giant.
2 Samuel 21:19 KJV
19 And there was again a battle in Gob with the Philistines, where Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the staff of whose spear was like a weaver's beam.
BOY... just look what misdirection the author of ........ what ever YOU want to call them
The Torah
The Pentateuch,
OR Simply
The Books of Moses
Just terrible that such a lack of clarity for those who were to study the word. ::frown:: Oh my gosh... ::eek::... the word of God cannot be believed..... ::scared::... because one or more authors had no idea what they were talking about and winged it to make their deadlines. Can we truly trust what is written. The RCC who told people, even when I was in grade school not to read a bible and do not own one were ever so wise cause only they were able to understand things... SO THEY SAID.
The Emim had dwelt there in times past, a people as great and numerous and tall as the Anakim. They were also regarded as giants [Hebrew rephaim], like the Anakim, but the Moabites call them Emim (Deuteronomy 2:10–11).
OKAY... I am stopping because I am not going to post what you are not going to read ::tippinghat::
But will leave with the comment that these couple of areas certainly offer more proof ( from God ) then just blanketly saying they are nonsense.
I did read your comment Rella. From a biblical perspective, you are free to interpret, understand, and believe as you wish. I have zero issue with that, regardless of my own personal views. My issue with this topic, and many others here is when certain people make attempts to claim scientific and historical facts from bogus internet sites. Scientifically speaking, the existence of giants is a myth, there is zero evidence to prove they ever dwelled on this earth. That said, if the remains of giants ever were discovered, I believe that would be one of the most fascinating finds of the century and the findings would be prominently displayed in every media outlet around the globe.
: Alan Wed Dec 28, 2022 - 11:44:55
I did read your comment Rella. From a biblical perspective, you are free to interpret, understand, and believe as you wish. I have zero issue with that, regardless of my own personal views. My issue with this topic, and many others here is when certain people make attempts to claim scientific and historical facts from bogus internet sites. Scientifically speaking, the existence of giants is a myth, there is zero evidence to prove they ever dwelled on this earth. That said, if the remains of giants ever were discovered, I believe that would be one of the most fascinating finds of the century and the findings would be prominently displayed in every media outlet around the globe.
Scientific and historical fact, is that this planet once supported plant and animal life on a much larger scale, both in number and size in the past. This is indisputable. If you don't believe there are and have been powerful forces in this world, denying, hiding, and or covering up many truths, then you might as well throw your bible away. You do not understand at all, what its pages are trying to warn humanity about, and steering its adherents away from.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Such is the condition of all humanity, apart from the grace of God.
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments,
is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
1Jn 2:22
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
1Jn 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself:
he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him,
whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed:
and all the world wondered after the beast. 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.This world is absolutely filled with lies, and those who deny the truth. All and any who place more faith in those even who deny our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and the testimony of God's word which testifies of Him, will share the fate of all liars. May God have mercy on our souls, and deliver us from the unending deceptions perpetrated against humanity by the evil ones and his minions.
: Amo Fri Dec 30, 2022 - 10:40:12
If you don't believe there are and have been powerful forces in this world, denying, hiding, and or covering up many truths, then you might as well throw your bible away. You do not understand at all, what its pages are trying to warn humanity about, and steering its adherents away from.
You have turned anything published outside of biblical support into a conspiracy theory, I choose not to go down that road. I see both God and science and see absolutely no collision in accepting both, not science above God, but science revealing the handiwork of God.
Right on, Alan!!
: Alan Fri Dec 30, 2022 - 12:28:19
You have turned anything published outside of biblical support into a conspiracy theory, I choose not to go down that road. I see both God and science and see absolutely no collision in accepting both, not science above God, but science revealing the handiwork of God.
No sir, I am just submitting to biblically stated truth.
Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.The law and the testimony both speak of creation in six days. The testimony also speaks of the giants of the past. Which true "science" reveals as well. Because God's word is judge over all, including so called "science". By which all will be judged, including "sciences" so called.
1Co 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. 19
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. 20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise,
that they are vain.Psa 119:104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11
For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
: Amo Fri Dec 30, 2022 - 18:44:04
No sir, I am just submitting to biblically stated truth.
Okay rofl rofl rofl rofl
Luk 8:51 And when he came into the house, he suffered no man to go in, save Peter, and James, and John, and the father and the mother of the maiden. 52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth. 53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead. 54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise. 55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.
The non believers in the above testimony laughed the word of God spoken by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to scorn much like you do. Thinking God was or is limited much like you do. It changed nothing. The maiden was but sleeping the sleep of death which the scriptures clearly teach, which you reject as well, and was easily awakened from that sleep by the word of God. You may laugh to scorn the conclusively expressed teaching of the six day creation, global flood, existence of giants in the past, sleep of death, and what ever else scripture teaches which you reject, all you want. It will change nothing. You will bow down before God and humanity at the very least in the end, and admit your error and the truth of all these things. But I pray that you will repent before then, and stop fighting against the testimony of God's word, in favor of the foolishness of the supposed wisdom of the "sciences so called" of this world.
The danger you are in for placing more faith in the wisdom of this world in contradiction to God's word, is no laughing matter. So I will not go there. Though I will continue to point out the ridiculousness as I see it, of much of what you believe.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrpG1N0gf-M&t=4251s
Another video about ancient giants folklore, reports of giant bones, and six fingered and toed peoples the world over. Not much on the biblical perspective of course, just a brief mention of it. Many ancients claiming that giants built some of the structures they made use of, long before them. As I have stated before, it only makes sense that post flood descendants would find and utilize such structures, and even build societies established upon the reverence and or worship of these physically and technologically superior beings before them. Therefore do we find so many depictions of them throughout history. As well as reports of their large bones being found over and again.
: Amo Sat Dec 31, 2022 - 16:11:58The non believers in the above testimony laughed the word of God spoken by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to scorn much like you do. Thinking God was or is limited much like you do.
Straight from the pen of a seriously self-righteous sanctimonious creature.
: Amo Sat Dec 31, 2022 - 16:11:58The danger you are in for placing more faith in the wisdom of this world in contradiction to God's word, is no laughing matter. So I will not go there. Though I will continue to point out the ridiculousness as I see it, of much of what you believe.
And still more.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MXC6E_EE2s
Another video about Antarctica. Dwelling on aliens of course as usual. Nevertheless, even according to the biblical account, it is very possible that antediluvian remains are concealed under the ice in conditions created by the flood. Or post antediluvian remains from ice conditions produced not long afterwards. There have been all kinds of rumors surrounding discoveries made there, being withheld from the public. More than just a few prominent figures have gone there to see something. I suspect that if they have found something contradicting their chosen pet narratives, they will keep it hidden. If not figure out an alternative explanation before revealing that which might actually support the biblical account. It could very well play into the final deceptions brought upon this world which God Himself will allow for, and even send upon willfully deceived humanity.
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
: 4WD Sat Dec 31, 2022 - 16:36:20
Straight from the pen of a seriously self-righteous sanctimonious creature.And still more.
What little righteousness any may have, is filthy rags before God. To the contrary, I do daily struggle with sin, and often fail. My only hope is in acknowledging the truth of my condition, confessing my sins against the sure word of God's commandments, and praying for forgiveness and authentic repentance for my sins. Which I know and acknowledge to be sin, because I accept the authority of God's word above my own or any other. Therefore is there hope for me. But there is no hope, for the one who places any authority above that of God's word. Believing another testimony above God's. Such cannot repent of and or be forgiven for that which they will not ever even acknowledge as sin. They are doomed because of their lack of faith. Unable to repent and or come to a knowledge of the truth.
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. 4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. 5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 7
By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.Those who do not even believe the above testimony directly referring to the faith necessary unto salvation, which faith the biblical account of Noah and the global flood exemplify as the above scriptures plainly present, cannot be privy to such salvation. This is basic biblical understanding 101. I am not a self righteous enemy of those rejecting these basic truths. I am a God fearing bible believing individual, trying to convince those in danger of losing their souls, to repent. To humble themsleves before the plain testimony of the word of God, an by faith believe it above all other testimonies. As the scriptures themselves plainly state all the saved will do.
Think of me whatever you wish. I claim no righteousness, nor do I ask any to believe or follow me, they most certainly should not. They most certainly should and must, submit to the authority of scripture above all other, if they intend to be saved.
It isn't cover ups, people just aren't gullible enough to believe this nonsense.
Even though the Bible mentions them multiple times.
I am always amazed by people who claim to be Christians, and claim to believe in the Bible, but at the same time, conveniently and continually dismiss parts of the book that they are uncomfortable with, because it conflicts with their world-friendly sensibilities and would cause them to adopt beliefs that would make them unpopular in secular society.
The Bible forces you to make certain choices. And most of them are uncomfortable.
: Amo Sat Dec 31, 2022 - 16:41:10
I suspect that if they have found something contradicting their chosen pet narratives, they will keep it hidden.
Why would anyone keep such a miraculous find secret?
Spoiler: Because there is no such miraculous find, just more bogus internets. ::crackup::
: Amo Sat Dec 31, 2022 - 17:08:55I claim no righteousness
Of course you do; every time that you malign someone who doesn't agree with your interpretation of scripture you make that claim. It is not that you disagree with the views of another or simply present an alternative interpretation, you take it to the next step of directly attacking the faith of any who disagrees. In your reply#473 you accused Alan of laughing at
"the word of God spoken by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to scorn" and
"fighting against the testimony of God's word".
You went on to accuse him of
"placing more faith in the wisdom of this world in contradiction to God's word".
This is a continuing trait of so many of your posts and it is indeed your claim of righteousness.
: 4WD Sun Jan 01, 2023 - 05:51:56
Of course you do; every time that you malign someone who doesn't agree with your interpretation of scripture you make that claim. It is not that you disagree with the views of another or simply present an alternative interpretation, you take it to the next step of directly attacking the faith of any who disagrees. In your reply#473 you accused Alan of laughing at "the word of God spoken by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to scorn" and "fighting against the testimony of God's word".
You went on to accuse him of "placing more faith in the wisdom of this world in contradiction to God's word".
This is a continuing trait of so many of your posts and it is indeed your claim of righteousness.
This is you again, demonstrating the exact same type of denial the left everyone complains about, continually demonstrates. The topic is scripture, and the scriptures absolutely do speak of the things which Alan and you completely deny. These scriptures exist right in front of all of our faces, and are quoted right here on these threads for you and all to see. So when I say you are denying or laughing at what scripture plainly states, I am stating actual reality right in front of what everyone involved can plainly see, right in front of their faces. Such is not maligning anyone, but simply pointing out basic facts seen by anyone who cares to acknowledge realities right in front of their faces.
I am not the one saying that the scriptures do not mean what they simply state right in front of the faces of everyone and anyone who will read them. You are. Just like the lefty progressives, you deny what is right in front of your face, accuse those pointing this out of lying about what is right in front of everyones faces, then declare them to be mean or cruel for pointing the obvious out, and to top it off, you even basically tell them to believe the "science" just like they do. Forget what the bible plainly states, and place your faith instead upon the "so called sciences" of this world. When it comes to the holy scriptures, you guys basically are the radical left. Denying the testimony right in front of your faces, and demanding that anyone who will defend that testimony as it plainly states, is a big bad meany maligning those who disagree with them. Why not just throw racist, homophobe, and whatever other phobes the left uses as well. Get over it.
Wah wah wah, call the wambulance, I hurt 4WD's feelings because I don't agree with him. There should be a law against such, I should be censored for such. If I am maligning you and others simply by disagreeing with them and arguing my point, then isn't everyone who disagrees with me and argues their points, maligning me? Get a grip, grow a pair. Don't be transformed by the pussification of society going on all around you, the constantly offended. Stand up, and argue your points without devolving into lefty progressive attempts to silence those who disagree with you, by attempting to make them feel guilty about disagreeing with you, as though such were actually meanness or a personal attack upon you. BALONEY!
Keep it civil here if you want this thread to remain open. Last warning.
: Amo Fri Dec 30, 2022 - 10:40:12
Scientific and historical fact, is that this planet once supported plant and animal life on a much larger scale, both in number and size in the past. This is indisputable.
Very true. Apparently at the time of the dinosaurs (when ever that was) the oxygen levels were double to triple what they are now in the atmosphere.
: DaveW Thu Jan 05, 2023 - 15:35:10
Very true. Apparently at the time of the dinosaurs (when ever that was) the oxygen levels were double to triple what they are now in the atmosphere.
It is true, however the time difference between the Mesozoic era and the dawn of primates is 64 million years.
The last dinosaur was named Denver.
: Alan Thu Jan 05, 2023 - 17:04:42It is true, however the time difference between the Mesozoic era and the dawn of primates is 64 million years.
As a young earth creationist, I am not sure that fits the biblical timeline.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcgxVezZBg8
Apart from the deep time fairy tale narrative presented in the video, it presents several more fossils of giant animals. Likely pre-flood, or among those creatures which could not last long after the flood, in a very changed world.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSTh0FGflvU
Another one from WISE UP.
: DaveW Fri Jan 06, 2023 - 13:20:38
As a young earth creationist, I am not sure that fits the biblical timeline.
Please... from one creationist to another (me) prove it.
: Rella Sun Feb 26, 2023 - 07:42:28
Please... from one creationist to another (me) prove it.
Sorry, there is nothing to "prove."
I am a YEC because it fits the biblical narrative better than anything millions or billions of years long.
: DaveW Mon Feb 27, 2023 - 05:28:16
Sorry, there is nothing to "prove."
I am a YEC because it fits the biblical narrative better than anything millions or billions of years long.
That is what is the common belief when reading the Holy Words.
But I simply see the first 2 verses in Genesis offering a pre-created world before the coming of "life" ( inclusive of plant as well as animal)
I never said millions or billions of years ago. I do not trust the "dating " processes the scientists use. But I do see the wisdom in not blindly accepting it all happened in a mere 144 consecutive hours.
Can you prove it did?
: Rella Mon Feb 27, 2023 - 05:46:19
I never said millions or billions of years ago. I do not trust the "dating " processes the scientists use. But I do see the wisdom in not blindly accepting it all happened in a mere 144 consecutive hours.
Can you prove it did?
No - and I have no interest in even trying to do so.
It does not affect the way I live my life in the here and now, and the rest I can pick up when we get to the other side. So I don't sweat it.
: DaveW Mon Feb 27, 2023 - 06:56:30
No - and I have no interest in even trying to do so.
It does not affect the way I live my life in the here and now, and the rest I can pick up when we get to the other side. So I don't sweat it.
That is at least a very honest answer, and one that deserves respect.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlB22L7vvOE&t=5
Great video about giants. This guy rightly concludes a global flood, giants building the very large ancient structures found all over the world, the remains of which are now buried and partially exposed in various locations. He gets a little off in thinking giants and us regular sized folks lived together though. He states the obvious, that they were more advanced than we are, and that talk of such is taboo or forbidden among those who control the narratives today. Rather than giants and regular humans living together, post flood peoples found or dug up ruins of the pre-flood giants and built upon them. Commemorating and or deifying those of the pre-flood civilizations who were obviously much larger and more advanced than themselves. People who were part of the world occupied by all the other giant plants and animals the fossils of which we find everywhere.
This is not to discount the giants mentioned in scripture who existed along side us, who were only remnants of the antediluvian giants before them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPTgr9ROw5Y
Another video about alien influence and or technology explaining apparent devolving humanity, as opposed to evolution. More theories avoiding the biblical account of creation and destruction, involving a prior superior world, plants, animals, and people. No aliens needed. Post flood humanity often finding the remains of the superior tech and civilization existing before the flood, literally built upon the remains of those structures, and built their societies and religions upon the awe and deification they attributed to the same. Which is also why so many also referenced or had myths regarding giants, the remains of which they also found or speculated of, concerning the very large structures and or building materials employed by the antediluvians.
This is not to mention the physical and mental superiority of humanity itself immediately after the flood, applying such to ancient societies being lost over time by devolving humanity. Or, as the video points out regarding the Roman Catholic Inquisitors, the many attempts by peoples over time to hide the truth of history which they felt threatened them of their kingdoms. Being so obviously superior to what their kingdoms represented. Much as many historians and "scientists" today feel threatened by these evidences which strongly contradict their own narratives. There is also the issue of those who took credit for the works of those before them, that they might be feared and or respected accordingly.
There simply is no question, but that the "ancients" so to speak, were far more knowledgable and advanced than present historical or "scientific" evolutionary narratives allow for.
: Amo Sat Mar 04, 2023 - 20:29:49
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlB22L7vvOE&t=5
Great video about giants. This guy rightly concludes a global flood, giants building the very large ancient structures found all over the world, the remains of which are now buried and partially exposed in various locations. He gets a little off in thinking giants and us regular sized folks lived together though. He states the obvious, that they were more advanced than we are, and that talk of such is taboo or forbidden among those who control the narratives today. Rather than giants and regular humans living together, post flood peoples found or dug up ruins of the pre-flood giants and built upon them. Commemorating and or deifying those of the pre-flood civilizations who were obviously much larger and more advanced than themselves. People who were part of the world occupied by all the other giant plants and animals the fossils of which we find everywhere.
This is not to discount the giants mentioned in scripture who existed along side us, who were only remnants of the antediluvian giants before them.
HMMM. Somehow I missed this one when first posted. Caught it today.
One comment on this before I move to the next.
At the 10.57 mark in the video shows the carving of what appears to be a normal sized man and a giant.
Or so he describes.
I believe this to be in error and agree that his saying giants lived with normal men at the same time...
This carving shows the giant wearing clothing. The small person is not wearing clothing and is holding the hand of the giant.
I submit for consideration that this is a father and possible son.
Now I shall go look at the next video before further comment
Could very well be of course.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlUJxNFyRBM
Giant spear heads.
: Amo Sat Jun 03, 2023 - 11:38:01
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPTgr9ROw5Y
Another video about alien influence and or technology explaining apparent devolving humanity, as opposed to evolution. More theories avoiding the biblical account of creation and destruction, involving a prior superior world, plants, animals, and people. No aliens needed. Post flood humanity often finding the remains of the superior tech and civilization existing before the flood, literally built upon the remains of those structures, and built their societies and religions upon the awe and deification they attributed to the same. Which is also why so many also referenced or had myths regarding giants, the remains of which they also found or speculated of, concerning the very large structures and or building materials employed by the antediluvians.
This is not to mention the physical and mental superiority of humanity itself immediately after the flood, applying such to ancient societies being lost over time by devolving humanity. Or, as the video points out regarding the Roman Catholic Inquisitors, the many attempts by peoples over time to hide the truth of history which they felt threatened them of their kingdoms. Being so obviously superior to what their kingdoms represented. Much as many historians and "scientists" today feel threatened by these evidences which strongly contradict their own narratives. There is also the issue of those who took credit for the works of those before them, that they might be feared and or respected accordingly.
There simply is no question, but that the "ancients" so to speak, were far more knowledgable and advanced than present historical or "scientific" evolutionary narratives allow for.
I personally find videos of this kind to not hold my interest beyond the occasional jaw dropping sight
that are shown without explanation of how they came into being.
is there the possibility of extraterrestrials of some sort... be them little green men or angels.. having built
these structures.... I suppose... just as I suppose they could have come into being by something supernatural and or spiritual.
Perhaps the giants that were mentioned in the last video right above this one????
What always bothers me is that there is all of this evidence of all of these buildings from pyramids to cities, to housing that is beyond explanation.
Like those of our native American cliff dwellers that I saw in person and totally defied logical explanation.
I just did not buy what they said.
But we have solid concrete... if I can use that term for stone... evidence
What we do not have... and I am referring to the giants video above... anywhere in the entire world
that there has been human fossil remains.
No bones or teeth.
All museums have some piece of something giant that they reconstruct a bird, or fish, or dinosaur around...
all claiming the piece of whatever is very, very old... pre-history... if you will... but no sign that there
were any really big people.
If they existed and had the apparent intelligence to construct the things they did... world wide....
don't you think they would have found a way to do something that would leave a real trace of who or what they are?
Heck... even the Egyptians were able to preserve a semblance of a body in mummification.
And if others ... say before Adam were building these things.... and they all... each and every single one of them cremated the dead... why do we not find any cremation ovens.
DONT GET ME WRONG. I absolutely believe there were giants. The bible says so.
But something big enough would leave a dent upon demise.... or some recording somewhere yet there is nothing.
I cannot in all good conscience believe they were all built by ETs... and there are not nor were their ever other Gods.
Our heavenly Father is and has been the only one.
So there is a lot we dont and cannot know until we get to the other side.
Know... the last quandary would be for those YEC folks.
From day 1 as mentioned in the bible until Noahs flood they claim it was
Consider: Genesis chapter five provides the genealogy from Adam to Noah including the years between each generation. This can be used to determine the number of years between creation and the flood. A simple addition of these ages suggests that there were 1656 years from creation to the flood. However, there are four issues that make this calculation subject to some variation.
In http://amunrud.com/noah/noahyears.html#:~:text=Summary%3AA%20reasonable%20estimate%20of%20the%20time%20from%20creation,a%20ten%20year%20%22converting%20ages%20to%20years%22%20increase.
Is a chart that suggests the years from Adam to the flood
Masoretic 1656
Samaritan 1307
Septuagint 2242
Not all that long.....
It the beings , giant or not, built these cities and things found world wide... without the use of modern
technology... it seems incomprehensible to consider.
And then all of everything was destroyed in the flood except these kinds of buildings?
I have no answer other then to say they obviously came about before the flood.... and I personally believe before Adam.
But Ill keep on reading and looking and studying for it at the very least is very very interesting and good fodder for the mind
: Rella Sun Jun 04, 2023 - 11:07:44
I personally find videos of this kind to not hold my interest beyond the occasional jaw dropping sight
that are shown without explanation of how they came into being.
is there the possibility of extraterrestrials of some sort... be them little green men or angels.. having built
these structures.... I suppose... just as I suppose they could have come into being by something supernatural and or spiritual.
Perhaps the giants that were mentioned in the last video right above this one????
What always bothers me is that there is all of this evidence of all of these buildings from pyramids to cities, to housing that is beyond explanation.
Like those of our native American cliff dwellers that I saw in person and totally defied logical explanation.
I just did not buy what they said.
But we have solid concrete... if I can use that term for stone... evidence
What we do not have... and I am referring to the giants video above... anywhere in the entire world
that there has been human fossil remains.
No bones or teeth.
All museums have some piece of something giant that they reconstruct a bird, or fish, or dinosaur around...
all claiming the piece of whatever is very, very old... pre-history... if you will... but no sign that there
were any really big people.
If they existed and had the apparent intelligence to construct the things they did... world wide....
don't you think they would have found a way to do something that would leave a real trace of who or what they are?
Heck... even the Egyptians were able to preserve a semblance of a body in mummification.
And if others ... say before Adam were building these things.... and they all... each and every single one of them cremated the dead... why do we not find any cremation ovens.
DONT GET ME WRONG. I absolutely believe there were giants. The bible says so.
But something big enough would leave a dent upon demise.... or some recording somewhere yet there is nothing.
I cannot in all good conscience believe they were all built by ETs... and there are not nor were their ever other Gods.
Our heavenly Father is and has been the only one.
So there is a lot we dont and cannot know until we get to the other side.
Know... the last quandary would be for those YEC folks.
From day 1 as mentioned in the bible until Noahs flood they claim it was
Consider: Genesis chapter five provides the genealogy from Adam to Noah including the years between each generation. This can be used to determine the number of years between creation and the flood. A simple addition of these ages suggests that there were 1656 years from creation to the flood. However, there are four issues that make this calculation subject to some variation.
In http://amunrud.com/noah/noahyears.html#:~:text=Summary%3AA%20reasonable%20estimate%20of%20the%20time%20from%20creation,a%20ten%20year%20%22converting%20ages%20to%20years%22%20increase.
Is a chart that suggests the years from Adam to the flood
Masoretic 1656
Samaritan 1307
Septuagint 2242
Not all that long.....
It the beings , giant or not, built these cities and things found world wide... without the use of modern
technology... it seems incomprehensible to consider.
And then all of everything was destroyed in the flood except these kinds of buildings?
I have no answer other then to say they obviously came about before the flood.... and I personally believe before Adam.
But Ill keep on reading and looking and studying for it at the very least is very very interesting and good fodder for the mind
There is actually a great deal of recorded evidence of many discoveries of the remains of giant humans. Written records abound throughout history. Very few actual physical evidences though, which these written records testify of. There is no question in my mind, that if such evidences have actually existed as so many have testified they do or did throughout history, it would be the Devil's exact purpose to destroy all such. Especially since countless millions of the world today, have been duped by the false deep time theory of evolution. The existence of giant humans in the past, would basically trash this theory. In that it would make evident that plants, animals, and humans were all superior to us in the past. Which certainly does not fit the present evolutionary model. Though the theory does show great ability to adapt and completely abandon prior teachings proved wrong, which were presented by them as scientific fact at one time.
: Rella Sun Jun 04, 2023 - 11:07:44
Is a chart that suggests the years from Adam to the flood
Masoretic 1656
Samaritan 1307
Septuagint 2242
Not all that long.....
There are lots of problems with those numbers.
One is that when you add up the Septuagint numbers, the result is that Methusaleh lived through the flood. But we are told nobody but the 8 members of the Noah family survived. The Masoretic and Samaritan texts (which are not as old) have solved this problem by making each patriarch 100 years younger when they became a father. This is a case where we have evidence that the scribes tampered with the text. Whatever the original text said... we don't have it anymore.
Jarrod
Good video on the corrupted Masoretic text:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VI1yRTC6kGE (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VI1yRTC6kGE)
: Jaime Mon Jun 05, 2023 - 13:31:51
Good video on the corrupted Masoretic text:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VI1yRTC6kGE (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VI1yRTC6kGE)
I attended a class in the summer of '95 at the UMJC summer conference in Chicago put on by Rus Resnick on the history and changes made in the Masoretic text. The Masorites started working about 1000 ad and it was published circa 1500 ad. Their expressed purpose was to add vowel pointing to the text to preserve proper pronunciation of the Hebrew text which lacked vowels. A secondary purpose was to impede the Church from using the Hebrew scriptures to prove Jesus was the Messiah.
Apparently in that day there were competing OT manuscripts just as we have for the New Testament. So they started with the least messianic manuscripts and worked from there. As they went, they rounded up all competing manuscripts and destroyed them. They were not as interested in textural or historical accuracy as they were in preserving the anti-messiah stance. We no longer have any of those older texts, except for the fragments from the Dead Sea Scrolls. They could not destroy the Septuagint, which was not considered true Scripture by the Jews. It was just a bad translation so Gentiles could see what was in the Torah. There are enough differences between the Septuagint and the Masoretic texts that a "proto-septuagint" Hebrew text has been theorized. No copies have ever been found.
So yes, there were changes made to the OT text.
For this reason, I always keep a Septuagint handy along with my NASB or KJV or Blue Letter online Bible app when studying the OT. The Septuagint was Paul's OT scriptures or at least he quoted from it quite a bit. Since the KJV, NASB, ESV and others carried on the Masoretic corruptions, I was surprised to find out all this since at least the KJV was the pristine "authorized version" in my youth.
: DaveW Tue Jun 06, 2023 - 10:56:05
They could not destroy the Septuagint, which was not considered true Scripture by the Jews. It was just a bad translation so Gentiles could see what was in the Torah. There are enough differences between the Septuagint and the Masoretic texts that a "proto-septuagint" Hebrew text has been theorized.
This is untrue.
The majority of Jews in the world were using the Septuagint (LXX) as their primary scripture by the 1st century AD. For that matter, a majority of Jews did not use Hebrew as a spoken language (they used some combination of Aramaic, Greek, or Egyptian, depending on location).
A study of the usage of words between the Septuagint and the New Testament shows that they match very precisely - more precisely than the Masoretic text OR the Dead Sea Scrolls. Where the New Testament quotes the Old Testament, its text also matches the LXX. The 1st-century church in Judea used the LXX as their Scriptures.
Jarrod
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Tue Jun 06, 2023 - 11:55:54
The majority of Jews in the world were using the Septuagint (LXX) as their primary scripture by the 1st century AD. For that matter, a majority of Jews did not use Hebrew as a spoken language (they used some combination of Aramaic, Greek, or Egyptian, depending on location).
Jews in the Diaspora used either the Aramaic Targums or the LXX, but understood that the Hebrew text was the ACTUAL word of God, not the translations. Something I believe most christians should also understand.
A study of the usage of words between the Septuagint and the New Testament shows that they match very precisely - more precisely than the Masoretic text OR the Dead Sea Scrolls. Where the New Testament quotes the Old Testament, its text also matches the LXX. The 1st-century church in Judea used the LXX as their Scriptures.
Of course. Since our oldest and best Greek NT mss date to the 300s ad, and come from mostly Greek and Roman occupied areas, when the scribes copied the texts they used the LXX to make sure they quoted correctly. That is why the texts are identical to the LXX.
Manuscripts from the same era that are in Aramaic differ in certain areas, and they do NOT mimic the LXX. They do however contain a lot of Semitic word play which does not come across in the Greek texts. That means they were NOT translated from the Greek but had a Semitic language original source.
: Jaime Tue Jun 06, 2023 - 11:49:32
For this reason, I always keep a Septuagint handy along with my NASB or KJV or Blue Letter online Bible app when studying the OT. The Septuagint was Paul's OT scriptures or at least he quoted from it quite a bit. Since the KJV, NASB, ESV and others carried on the Masoretic corruptions, I was surprised to find out all this since at least the KJV was the pristine "authorized version" in my youth.
Yeah - I was taught that too.
Usually I have a 1950s translation of the whole bible from the Aramaic (manuscripts from the 300s-400s ad) so all the OT predates the Masoretic changes, and the double translation errors from Aramaic to Greek to English. It is not available now as my entire library is boxed up. we are in the process of moving and this house has not sold yet. So in the interest of "declutter" that is in storage right now.
: DaveW Tue Jun 06, 2023 - 13:15:11Manuscripts from the same era that are in Aramaic differ in certain areas, and they do NOT mimic the LXX. They do however contain a lot of Semitic word play which does not come across in the Greek texts. That means they were NOT translated from the Greek but had a Semitic language original source.
The majority of scholars seem to disagree... do you have some examples, or a source you can point me to?
https://ia803106.us.archive.org/16/items/tgwra/The%20Ancient%20Giants%20Who%20Ruled%20America%20by%20Richard%20J.%20Dewhurst%20%282014%29.pdf
THE ANCIENT GIANTS WHO RULED AMERICA
: Amo Thu Feb 29, 2024 - 08:01:40https://ia803106.us.archive.org/16/items/tgwra/The%20Ancient%20Giants%20Who%20Ruled%20America%20by%20Richard%20J.%20Dewhurst%20%282014%29.pdf
THE ANCIENT GIANTS WHO RULED AMERICA
Thank you Amo.
Will take me a while to read it all but so far is interesting.
Yea, I'll have to find the time as well. Looks interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gM_rUNe_5Fc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afNhfgP-Y8Q
Simply amazing.
Every single time I want to stop posting for a time, or tima anfd a half, something comes along and I find myself right here.
Anyway... in the vein of the subject of this thread I just got... to my inbox ( where else?)
https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/hebrew-bible/rock-giants-in-noah/?mqsc=E4159464&dk=ZE4130ZF0&utm_source=WhatCountsEmail&utm_medium=BHDA%20Daily%20Newsletter%201-90&utm_campaign=03_04_24_Nabonidus_The_First_Archaeologist
But the exciting "news" is this one mentions the book of Enoch...
Rock Giants in Noah
Can the Book of Enoch shed light on Noah the movie?
Megan Sauter March 02, 2024 76 Comments 151277 views Shareronald-hendel
Ronald S. Hendel
Who—or what—are the rock giants in Noahthe movie?
Genesis 6 makes no mention of rock giants—or fallen angels—helping Noah build the ark. Where then did the rock giants in Noah the movie come from? Are they merely an invention by Hollywood scriptwriters?
The Hollywood blockbuster Noah has generated its fair share of controversy, with some saying the movie took too many liberties with the Biblical text. Certainly it is not a straightforward retelling of the flood story in Genesis 6, but as Ronald S. Hendel points out in his Biblical Views column "Noah, Enoch, and the Flood: The Bible Meets Hollywood," which appears in the July/August 2014 issue of BAR, the flood story has been reimagined in Christian and Jewish texts, such as the apocryphal Book of Enoch, for millennia.
While rock giants are absent from the Book of Genesis, the Book of Enoch might shed light on their identity.
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The Book of Enoch is a collection of texts, the earliest dating to the third century B.C.E., supposedly authored by the famous Enoch of the Bible, who lived "in the seventh generation from Adam" (Jude 14) and was taken by God: "Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him" (Genesis 5:24). This apocryphal book reimagines the account of Genesis 5–6, adding details to the flood narrative and elaborating on what was revealed to Enoch in heaven.
noah-rock-giants
Who are the rock giants in Noah the movie? Are they to be identified with the Watchers, fallen angels in the Book of Enoch?
In its expansion of the flood account we are introduced to the Watchers, fallen angels who mated with human women and produced offspring—the Nephilim, the "heroes that were of old, warriors of renown" of Genesis 6:4—or giants. The Book of Enoch states that the Watchers shared secret knowledge with their sons that led to the corruption of the world. The giants ravaged the earth, filling it with destruction and evil; they depleted the world of food and terrified humankind. These actions trigger the flood.
For more on Hollywood movies, read "Excruciating Exodus Movie Exudes Errors," "The 'Gods of Egypt' Movie: A Mess of Anachronisms and Exoticization" and "Blending into One: The 'Left Behind' Movie, the Book of Revelation and the Rapture."
noah-movie
Darren Aronofsky's Noah (2014).
When Enoch confronts the Watchers about their impending doom, they implore him to intercede on their behalf. He agrees—but to no avail. The Watchers' petition is not granted; they and their sons are not able to escape their punishment—the flood.
Returning to our earlier question: Who are the rock giants in Noah the movie? They're called fallen angels and are based loosely on the Watchers we see in the Book of Enoch.
To find out more about the Genesis Flood and the Book of Enoch, read the full column "Noah, Enoch, and the Flood: The Bible Meets Hollywood" by Ronald S. Hendel in the July/August 2014 issue of BAR.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-aN1rdP3hA
Interesting video about the changing narrative relating to the occupation of the Americas by humans. Finding evidence for the continents being inhabited long before the Clovis peoples.
The narrative of the Clovis peoples being here first was wrong. Not only was it wrong, but those who believed this and claimed the evidence was here in the past, were ridiculed and had their careers destroyed. With no small participation from the Smithsonian in the smear campaigns.
There are similar claims of course in relation to the many reports of giant skeletal remains being found throughout the U.S. and elsewhere as well. Regarding the Smithsonian and others who simply chose to destroy this narrative which caused a major problem for the theory of evolution.
The video also speaks a lot about the flood conditions evidenced in the U.S. as well. Sticking with deep time false narratives of course, while admitting of the mysteries which still baffle them in relation to the same. Claiming no alternative to consider, while completely ignoring the biblical account of the flood. Which certain Creationists have correctly postulated, could explain and or have produced the evidence of large meteor and or other sourced impact sites in the U.S. and around the world. Which the video claims were the cause of the floods.
Choosing to ignore the biblical flood account as an explanation for the actual evidence observed, does not mean that the flood itself as described could not have been the catastrophe which created that evidence. This is simply where most do not choose to go. Nevertheless, all of this evidence can easily be attributed to the global flood catastrophe described in the scriptures, and the many lesser catastrophes that would have no doubt followed afterwards. As a direct result of the same.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPRFLBZr3uo
This video observably confirms that inferior civilizations and peoples built upon the ruins of more ancient and advanced civilizations of the past. Probably even basing their religions and cultures upon the remains of ancient more advanced civilizations they deified as it were, for the wonders of skill and technology they realized those before were capable of.
A whole lot of the evidence of more advanced peoples and tech in the video looks far more like imprints left in the sediments from the flood which later hardened, than actual carved out of rock stairs, structures, and such. Obvious ruins and chaos left over from the catastrophic flood event described in holy scripture. With many imprints of things once entombed in mud and sediments which have now hardened into rock, the items themselves being long since decayed, rotted and our rusted into oblivion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdYiItXR01I
Another interesting video. Which also points out the use of more ancient higher tech ruins as a base for later constructions by later lower tech societies.
While I do not agree with the deep time narrative of the video, it is obvious that nature itself has and does create seemingly designed or precisely cut rock formations. These I believe however, according to my faith, were the result of the global catastrophic events of the biblical flood. Which provided the global watery, muddy, volcanic, seismic, rapid heating and cooling, and so on and so forth conditions, which produced these seeming anomalies.
The abundance of such seeming anomalies may have provided the early post flood developing civilizations with a lot of free building materials for the many large monuments and or structures we find among their ruins. Needing little to no work to shape, with only the problem of moving and setting them in place to address. This is apart also from the possibility of them using what remnants of the ruins of the pre flood world they may have discovered and used as a base to build upon as well.
I found the Native American account of the flood very interesting as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZi4sIMhad8
China's evidence of pre flood civilization.
I find this stuff absolutely fascinating.
It also can be opening up a real can of worms.... under the "What If " headings
Such as... What if there was an advanced civilization inhabiting the earth before God made man in Genesis....? Possibly a series of civilizations?
After all... those of you who read and follow KJV only have to admit that his men's translation was a bit odd when it was not in the Greek
Interlinear or Peshitta like that.
Hebrews 1:2 King James Version
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;�
Hebrews 11:3 King James Version
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
: Rella Sun Apr 21, 2024 - 12:10:18Hebrews 1:2 King James Version
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;�
Hebrews 11:3 King James Version
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Rella, in both of these Hebrews texts, the word "worlds" (plural) should be "AGES" (aionas) as in the YLT and other literal versions.
But even though these two Hebrews verses can't be used as proof texts for pre-Adamic inhabitants of this planet, I believe Genesis 1:2 can. The original languages indicate that "the world BECAME without form and void...", as if God had used this globe for other purposes before Creation week, and obliterated the conditions of that world (or even a series of other civilizations) to repurpose this planet for humanity's use.
In other words, I believe it is possible that we could be occupying an extremely ancient planet which was being renovated during Creation week. This would explain the apparent difference between the roughly 6,000-year history of mankind on this planet and the dates which are given to the planet's material elements themselves.
Looks to me like in all versions, the earth WAS created formless and void. It didn't BECOME formless and void from some other state of existence, at least from the text as written. Verse 2 describes the state of the just created earth in verse 1.
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Genesis%201:2
: Jaime Sun Apr 21, 2024 - 18:37:35Looks to me like in all versions, the earth WAS created formless and void. It didn't BECOME formless and void from some other state of existence, at least from the text as written. Verse 2 describes the state of the just created earth in verse 1.
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Genesis%201:2
Many scholars now translate more like...
"At the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and earth, the earth was formless and void..."
If that's so, then Genesis 1:1 doesn't describe creation
ex nihilo, but rather it describes God FORMING some pre-existing material that has no defined shape.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmFE-qjoksc&t=4s
Interesting for sure. I was just addressing 3R's comment anout what the translated text says. I would have given him grace if he had said it "should have been translated thus and and so." But no present translations says "became."
: Jaime Sun Apr 21, 2024 - 18:37:35Looks to me like in all versions, the earth WAS created formless and void. It didn't BECOME formless and void from some other state of existence, at least from the text as written. Verse 2 describes the state of the just created earth in verse 1.
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Genesis%201:2
But the question remains..... WHEN.
Certainly this ball of mud and weeds at some point was nothing.
But it could well have come into existence.... some creations made.... some creation ended and then eventually mankind that we have been told about came.
All these findings of allegedly old buildings and such that they say came before the flood... Noah's flood... had to have had a source and I just dont see our early ancestors doing it....
I agree, but again 3Rs claimed the text said became, it didn't, but i can entertain a mistranslation, though it is kinda frustrating being the 2nd sentence in the entire story. The potential of totally game changing translation errors seem quite likely. Similar to the ages of Shem's descendants being 100 years off on every one of the descendents and ON PURPOSE.
I've posted this before:
: Jaime Sun Apr 21, 2024 - 19:54:28Interesting for sure. I was just addressing 3R's comment anout what the translated text says. I would have given him grace if he had said it "should have been translated thus and and so." But no present translations says "became."
Just doing a quick search online tonight concerning the Genesis 1:2 phrase in the original Hebrew.
Here is a comparison of the Hebrew term used in two separate cases. In Genesis 19:26, we have "But his wife looked back behind him, and she became (
hayeta) a pillar of salt."
And here again in Genesis 1:2 (KJV) there is the same verb used again. "And the earth was (
hayeta) without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep..."
Question: Why is it necessary to translate this "hayeta" Hebrew term as "became" when scripture mentions Lot's wife turning into a pillar of salt, but it is not necessary to translate it that way in Genesis 1:2?
This article I just read mentioned three versions which all have the earth "becoming" formless and void...
the Chaldee Version ("But the earth
had become desert and empty"),
the Aramaic Version ("And the earth
had become ruined and uninhabited"),
and the Septuagint Version ("But the earth
had become unfurnished and empty")
: Jaime Sun Apr 21, 2024 - 20:21:56I agree, but again 3Rs claimed the text said became, it didn't, but i can entertain a mistranslation, though it is kinda frustrating being the 2nd sentence in the entire story. The potential of totally game changing translation errors seem quite likely. Similar to the ages of Shem's descendants being 100 years off on every one of the descendents and ON PURPOSE.
I've posted this before:
Lots of good information in this.
But he still assumes the scope of the flood to be global. If he hadn't, he might have noticed that the date he sets for the flood - 3000 BC - aligns almost perfectly with the date archaeologists give to the Shurappak flood (2900 BC).
: 3 Resurrections Sun Apr 21, 2024 - 20:52:50Just doing a quick search online tonight concerning the Genesis 1:2 phrase in the original Hebrew.
Here is a comparison of the Hebrew term used in two separate cases. In Genesis 19:26, we have "But his wife looked back behind him, and she became (hayeta) a pillar of salt."
And here again in Genesis 1:2 (KJV) there is the same verb used again. "And the earth was (hayeta) without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep..."
Question: Why is it necessary to translate this "hayeta" Hebrew term as "became" when scripture mentions Lot's wife turning into a pillar of salt, but it is not necessary to translate it that way in Genesis 1:2?
This article I just read mentioned three versions which all have the earth "becoming" formless and void...
the Chaldee Version ("But the earth had become desert and empty"),
the Aramaic Version ("And the earth had become ruined and uninhabited"),
and the Septuagint Version ("But the earth had become unfurnished and empty")
The best you can do with that argument is to prove ambiguity.
The problem is in the translation of verse 1. See the link I posted on the last page showing a different translation there...
At the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and earth, the earth was formless and void...
: Amo Thu Feb 29, 2024 - 08:01:40https://ia803106.us.archive.org/16/items/tgwra/The%20Ancient%20Giants%20Who%20Ruled%20America%20by%20Richard%20J.%20Dewhurst%20%282014%29.pdf
THE ANCIENT GIANTS WHO RULED AMERICA
I am placing the following link here as it is of the same subject matter as THE ANCIENT GIANTS WHO RULED AMERICA..
IOW Giants.
I only am including this for comparason sake and not as dogmatic proof... The main reason is that the author of this... who attached it at the end of https://ia601001.us.archive.org/19/items/TheCompleteBookOfEnochStandardEnglishVersionJayWinter/The%20Complete%20Book%20of%20Enoch%2C%20Standard%20English%20Version%20-%20Jay%20Winter.pdf
THE COMPLETE BOOK OF ENOCH
Standard English Version
by Dr. Jay Winter , and while it has a Library of Congress
notation... it seems to be amiss in some of his translation/organization.
But because this has been a hotly debated subject for a very long while... it is worth consideration, from a differing view.
It is best to read from the link, but I know most will not bother.... Believe or not.... one day we shall all know the truth.
Starting at page 130 at the above link.... I will copy in full, as I can.
The Dead Sea Scrolls
This chart showing a listing of what scrolls were found in the Qumran caves isimportant to note in regards to the texts found therein as they include an associated body of work that is one in the same.
Parts of the Book of Giants were found regarding Enoch in the caves as well.
It would appear that whoever
the scribe or group of people who stored away these scrolls, intended them for
safe keeping as they represent a body of knowledge that has, curiously enough,
been largely fought since their inception. When a researcher gets to a certain
point they tend to realize that some information and studies surpass the
understanding of the intellect alone but rather sequesters the heart to
comprehend such mysteries of which the mind is unwilling.
(See page 131 in the link for the chart. It would not download to copy)
The Book of the Giants
The Book of the Giants was published in not less than six or seven languages.
From this point to page 144 is a lot of technical info, so
starting again at page 144)
RECONSTRUCTED SUMMARY OF THE
BOOK OF GIANTS
CHAPTER ONE: The Watchers are grieved over the sins of mankind, and
petition God to let them descend to the earth to teach the sons of men
righteousness and to rebuke them. God grants their petition. Azazel is sent to
prepare the way for the Watchers. Azazel prepares the way, and the Watchers
descend and they begin to teach them righteousness and justice. Enoch is chosen
by the Watchers to serve as a mediator between men and the Watchers.
CHAPTER TWO: The daughters of men lust after the attractive Watchers, and
seduce them; Azazel, with Shemhazah's help, instigates the fall of the 200
Watchers and their followers. The Watchers fall from their glorious nature, and
become bound to fleshly bodies as a consequence of their joining sexually to
flesh. They begin to reveal to their wives heavenly and earthly secrets.
CHAPTER THREE: The Watchers have their own families with humans and
also with animals, and those that were defiled by them give birth to Giants.
These Giants begin to grow to massive sizes, and become full of greed and
corruption. They kill many dragons and the sons of Cain worship them for
protecting them. The children of Cain are no longer able to sustain the Giants
with their offerings of vegtables and grain so the Giants turn on them and kill
them and begin to eat them. The Giants develop a taste for blood and begin
eating any moving thing including each other. The Watchers teach some of the
secrets they were appointed over to keep from the sons of men. The Giants
imitate the sins of their fathers, and take for themselves wives and animal mates,
and they beget Naphil and Eliyo. God seeing all this wickedness, sends Enoch to
declare to Shemhazah and the fallen Watchers that they will be soon punished
for causing the earth to be corrupted.
CHAPTER FOUR: Enoch is sent by the righteous Watchers to rebuke the fallen
Watchers and to declare to them their doom. He comes to Azazel first and
condemns him as the principal sinner amongst the fallen Watchers. He then
summons Mahaway to him and has him gather all the Watchers for his message.
Enoch enters the assembly of the fallen Watchers, and gives them the message of
doom. They weep and lament and beg Enoch to present to God their petition for
mercy and a second chance - to restore them to their former glory and that their
sons might have eternal life. They required a messenger to talk to God because
God had since stopped talking to them after their transgression. Enoch hears
their case and tells them he will talk to God on their behalf.
CHAPTER FIVE: Enoch, having written the petition of the fallen Watchers and
discussing it with God, receives a vision from God as a response, and Enoch
writes the vision for the fallen Watchers in a book and gives the book to them.
Enoch declares to them they will not be forgiven, and describes for them his
ascent into the presence of God, where he was given a message for them.
CHAPTER SIX: Enoch received from God an answer for the fallen Watchers: he
is told to tell them why they were not given permission to have sex, and what
their punishment is because of it, and he foretells unto them the miserable doom
and fate of the offspring of the fallen Watchers, and foretells to them that they
will become evil spirits and will not have eternal life but that their years will be
no more than 500. After hearing this the fallen Watchers and their Giant sons
take up stones to throw at Enoch but the holy Watchers shield Enoch from their
deadly blows and lift Enoch up into the heavens to escape their earthly wrath
against Enoch the messenger. (This is perhaps the first time that anyone ever
attempted to "kill the messenger.")
CHAPTER SEVEN: Hobabesh kidnaps another Giant's wife, and starts a war
amongst the Giants. When the war was ending, one of Ohyah's companions was
killed by Mahaway. Ohyah mourns with his father Shemhazah about his friend,
and they curse Mahaway. Mahaway defends himself, appealing to the words of
his father Baraqel as justification. Ohyah gets angry and attempts to kill
Mahaway, but Gilgamesh and the other Giants prevent Ohyah from doing so,
and they ward off Ohyah's murderous intentions. (This is where we learn about
Gilgamesh slaying dragons, or dinosaurs and being a hero for the normal sized
men of that time.)
CHAPTER EIGHT: Gilgamesh has a dream, but interprets it as indicating the
Giants will not be punished. The Giants celebrate but aren't entirely convinced,
and subsequent to this, Ohyah and Hahyah have dreams of their own. They seek
the interpretation of the dreams, but none of the Giants can declare to them what
the meaning of their dreams are, so the Giants have Mahaway go to Enoch in
order to learn from him the meaning of the dreams and to learn what the fate of
the Giants will be. Mahaway flies to Enoch, and Enoch greets Mahaway, and
Mahaway explains why he came, and Enoch proceeds to give Mahaway the
answer, and he writes it down in a tablet, and gives a second tablet as well to
Mahaway intended for Shemhazah and the Watchers, and he sends Mahaway
back to the Giants with the two tablets.
CHAPTER NINE: Mahaway flies back to the Giants with the two tablets. And
Mahaway tells them of his journey to Enoch and of Enoch saving his life, and
tells them that Enoch had given him two tablets and revealed everything they
had wanted to know form him. The first tablet is read. The Giants discuss the
contents of the first tablet after it is finished being read, and realize they are
doomed, and they lament over their miserable fate. They then have the second
tablet read. Enoch tells
Shemhazah that he and the other fallen Watchers will soon be bound, but that the
Giants should repent and pray, for they still have a chance to benefit from
reformation of their lives.
CHAPTER TEN: Shemhazah urges his two sons Ohyah and Hahyah to reform
their lives in the hopes that they will be yet given mercy. Ohyah and Hahyah
listen to the advice of Shemhazah and attempt to convince the Giants to reform
themselves, teaching them through proverbs where true success is found. The
Giants seek to reform their lives. Enoch is sent to declare to the Watchers that
within 120 years, they would all be bound in a dark prison of punishment for
their sins, and that their sons would all be destroyed from off the face of the
earth. Noah begins to build the Ark. Around this time, only Azazel is bound.
CHAPTER ELEVEN: The Giants lament over Azazel being bound, and then
they and the Watchers, seeing that they were not bound or destroyed vaunted
themselves. When this happened, Gabriel the archangel was sent to incite the
Giants to commit civil war against themselves and their offspring, and they all
began to kill each other, and the Watchers beheld the destruction of their
families. When the war of the Giants ends with few survivors, all of the fallen
Watchers are subsequently bound by the angels into the dark prison of
punishment.
CHAPTER TWELVE: Noah goes into the Ark, and the flood comes, and begins
to kill all life, but not all the Giants are killed by the flood. In order to fix this,
Yehuweh sends the Leviathan, and the Leviathan begins to kill all the Giants and
their sons who survived. Ohyah alone survives the attacks of the Leviathan, and
kills the Leviathan. The archangel Raphael is sent by Yehuweh in order to punish
Ohyah for killing the Leviathan, and to finally restore the earth to purity Ohyah
is killed and bound in the dark prison of punishment with the fallen Watchers.
The flood being over, and the Giants and their sons still remaining on the earth
without bodies, become evil spirits, and are given a law by an angel of Yehuweh
how they are to live if they want to avoid being sent to the dark prison of
punishment that the Watchers were sent to.
And this explains how the Nephilim
came to be on the earth after the flood.Evidence of Giants (starts on page 148 of the link) (pictures will not copy for me)
Fossilized remains of giant human skeletons have been found all around the
world. Ranging in size, many of them have been recovered with giant weapons,
armor, and strange artifacts dubbed OOPARTS (Out of Place Artifacts). The
current worldview model for humanity doesn't support the existence of a giant
human race (according to evolution). These enormous ancient human beings
were worshipped throughout various world religions of which tell of many of
them slaying dragons. It is important to note that the term "dragon" was replaced
by the word "dinosaur" in 1871 by Sir. Edward Owen. Hence, any reference in
ancient literature to dragons, is a reference to dinosaurs according to the
ontology of the word change associations involved. The following is a brief
report of recovered giant fossilized human remains of which most end up in
private collections of the elite of society save a few who have found their way to
museums around the world. Although in recent years many of these museums
have been selling these remains to private collectors for large sums of money
their discoveries remain documented and undisputed by reasonable scholars
without hidden agendas. Take a look at the evidence and decide for yourself if
there were "Giants on the earth in those days." - Genesis 6:4
Perhaps the best place to start off with providing evidence of the existence of
giant human beings is Crete. Crete was once known in old times as Arcadia. The
Greek historian Herodotus had written about another historian, Eustathius who
had said that Arcadia was once called Gigantis, or "The Land of Giants,"
because of the giants who had formerly lived there. It was also known as the
Greek Garden of Eden. This connection between Arcadia, giants, and to the
Garden of Eden makes sense, because the 4th century Roman author Servius in
his Commentary on the Eneid says, that the Arcadians often reached the age of
300 years.—Grotius.
( see link for map page 149)
Several of the world's most influential authors all throughout history verify these
accounts of giants, gods, and the island of Crete. People such as Diodorus
Siculus, Pliny, Strabo, Plutarch, and Plato, just to name a few. In addition to
these historical accounts by some of the world's most trusted authorities, there is
also the science with real life giant bones that have been found on Crete. In fact,
the largest bones that have ever been found were discovered on this very same
island, which may prove this was truly the home or the Land of Giants.
During the Cretan war from 205–200 BC a massive giant skeleton was
discovered on the island. This giant was measured at the length of thirtythree cubits, which equates to nearly 42 feet. The Roman Lucius Flaccus was
a notable eye witness to the gigantic bones, and the Greek writer under Roman
Emperor Hadrian, Phlegon of Tralles also mentions the discovery of several
giant skeletons. In the included chart of giant fossilized remains findings around
the world features the 36 foot skeleton found by the Carthaginians.
In the The Geography of Strabo, Volume 1 By Strabo, he writes about these
giants that were discovered in city founded by the biblical Corinthians who used
to reside in the modern day island of Crete;
"Somewhere in this neighbourhood is the mountain Bermius,2 which was
formerly in the possession of the Briges, a Thracian nation, some of whom
passed over to Asia and were called by another name, Phrygians (Phryges). After
Thessalonica follows the remaining part of the Therman Gulf, extending to
Canastneum. This is a promontory of a peninsula form, and is opposite to
Magnesia. Pallene is the name of the peninsula. It has an isthmus 5 stadia in width, with a ditch cut across it. There is a city on the peninsula, formerly called
Potidsna, founded by the Corinthians, but afterwards it was called Cassandria,
from king Cassander, who restored it after it was demolished. It is a circuit of
570 stadia round the peninsula by sea. Here giants were said to have lived, and
the region to have been called Phlegra. Some consider this to be a mere
fable, but others, with greater probability on their side, see implied in it the
existence of a barbarous and lawless race of people who once occupied the
country, but who were destroyed by Hercules on his return home, after the
capture of Troy. Here also the Trojan women are said to have committed the
destructive act of burning the ships, to avoid becoming the slaves of their
captors' wives."
There are more stories and eyewitness accounts of giant people and bones being
found on the island of Crete, than anywhere in the world as this information is
current. In addition to the eyewitness accounts and bones that have been found
here that help verify this history with some science, there is more scientific
evidence in the form of the tools that these giant people had used. Tools such as
the massive double headed axes that have been found in Crete. These axes are
said to be from up to 1700 years before Christ and were also the main religious
symbol of the ancient Cretans. They date to the Second Palace and Post-Palace
periods (1700 - 1300 BC)". The Minoan name for the double axe is "labrys",
thus the word labyrinth may originally have meant the "House of the Double
Axe," an ancient reference to the invention of the double axe which is attributed
to giants.
This biblical story may give us a clue as to what eventually had happened to
these giants from Crete:
The sons of Joseph were authorized to invade the "Land of the Giants" and Og,
the king of Bashan, and the last sovereign of the Ashtoreth dynasty, encountered
Moses at Edrei, where he fell "with his sons, and all his people, until there was
none left alive, and they (the Israelites) possessed the land," Numbers. xxi. 33,
34, 35.
Deuteronomy 2:11 Which also were accounted giants, as the Anakims; but the
Moabites call them Emims.
Deuteronomy 3:13 And the rest of Gilead, and all Bashan, being the kingdom of
Og, gave I unto the half tribe of Manasseh; all the region of Argob, with all
Bashan, which was called the land of giants.
Joshua 12:4 And the coast of Og king of Bashan, which was of the remnant
of the giants, that dwelt at Ashtaroth and at Edrei,
Joshua 13:12 All the kingdom of Og in Bashan, which reigned in Ashtaroth and
in Edrei, who remained of the remnant of the giants: for these did Moses
smite, and cast them out.
Fossilized human footprints have also been discovered in Sweden, and in
Mexico. Giant skeletons have been discovered throughout the United States and
giant fossilized remains are not solely exclusive to the lands of Crete but rather
world-wide. Photos of giants from recent times are all a part of important natural
history. An article from Strand magazine (December,1895) reprinted in "Traces
of the Elder Faiths" of Ireland by W.G. Wood-Martin mentions this fossilized
giant discovered during mining operations in County Antrim, Ireland:
"Pre-eminent among the most extraordinary articles ever held by a railway
company is the fossilized Irish giant, which is at this moment lying at the
London and North-Western Railway Company's Broad street goods depot, and a
photograph of which is reproduced here. . . This monstrous figure is reputed to
have been dug up by a Mr. Dyer whilst prospecting for iron ore in County
Antrim. The principal measurements are: entire length, 12ft. 2in.; girth of chest,
6ft. 6in.; and length of arms, 4ft. 6in. There are six toes on the right foot. The
gross weight is 2 tons; 15cwt.; so that it took half a dozen men and a powerful
crane to place this article of lost property in position for the Strand magazine
photographer to do her work."
The below is the picture of the giant published in Strand Magazine 1895: (see link)
Near Crittenden, Arizona, in 1891, workmen excavating for a commercial
building came upon a huge stone sarcophagus eight feet below the surface. The
contractor called in expert help, and the sarcophagus was opened to reveal a
granite mummy case which had once held the body of a human being more than
twelve feet tall - a human with six toes, according to the carving of the case. But
the body had been buried so many thousands of years that it had long since
turned to dust. Just another silent witness to the truth of Genesis, which tells us
that there were giants on the earth in those days, the excavation of over a dozen
skeletons 8 to 12 feet tall, around the world shocked archaeologists.
If you have already read through the Book of Giants then you may understand
why on so many Sumerian artifacts that we find depictions of giant humans
being served by lesser humans in stature. As the Book of Enoch testifies, and as
other texts of the same body of knowledge tell us, some men worshipped these
giants only to have them eventually turn on them.
The associated text in the Book of Giants that pertains to this particular
Sumerian tablet is the following:
". . . they took and imprisoned all the helpers that were in the heavens. And the
angels themselves descended from the heaven to the earth. And (when) the
two hundred demons saw those angels, they were much afraid and worried.
They assumed the shape of men and hid themselves. Thereupon the angels
forcibly removed the men from the demons, (10) laid them aside, and put
watchers over them. . . . the giants . . . . were sons . . . with each other in bodily
union . . . . with each other self- . . . . and the . . . . that had been born to them,
they forcibly removed them from the demons. And they led one half of them
(20) eastwards, and the other half westwards, on the skirts of four huge
mountains, towards the foot of the Sumeru mountain, into thirty-two towns
which the Living Spirit had prepared for them in the beginning. And one calls
(that place) Aryān-waižan. And those men are (>or: were) . . . . in the first arts
and crafts. (30) . . . . they made . . . the angels . . . and to the demons . . they went
to fight. And those two hundred demons fought a hard battle with the four
angels, until the angels used fire, naphtha, and brimstone. . ." - Book of Giants -
Sogdian Manuscript
Of such cities mentioned in the Book of Giants other authorities on the antiquities of history make note:
Cristoforo Buondelmonti (1386-1430) was an Italian monk, traveler, and a
pioneer in promoting first-hand knowledge of Greece and its antiquities, who
had written about a Cretan city named Sarandopolis that was formerly
inhabited by giants, and where modern eparkhia of Setia derived its name.
The San Diego Giant
The mummy remains of a giant were unearthed in a cave near San Diego,
California. It was discovered by a party of prospectors, and was displayed at the
Atlantic exposition while, a number of Smithsonian scientists were there. They
asked permission to examine it and when consent was given applied their tapes
and found that it measured eight feet four inches from crown to heel. The
body lied rest in a ten foot coffin. The exhibitor agreed to sell it for $500 to the
Smithsonian of which sold it in more recent days to an "unknown private
collector." The following photo is the San Diego Giant: (see link)
In terms of the life spans of the giants we find that it was appointed to them 500
years to live:
Enoch 4:12 And to Gabriel said the Lord, "Proceed against the bastards and the
reprobates, and against the children of fornication and destroy the children of the
Watchers from amongst men. Send them one against the other that they may
destroy each other in battle, for length of days shall they not have. And no
request that they make of thee shall be granted unto their fathers on their behalf;
for they hope to live an eternal life, and that each one of them will live five
hundred years." - Enoch Book 1: Watchers Ch.4:12
Notice how that is specific to a definite degree? Well it would seem that their
days were numbered as a curse and that perhaps they couldn't die until 500 years
had been allotted to them. Keep in mind that God was not pleased at all with that
the fallen angels had done and was using this as a testament against them for
breaking His laws. They wanted their giant sons to have the eternal life like they
had but God denied their plea for this. Although the exact contents of the
petition the fallen angels had Enoch deliver to God is not known this verse
appears to be a logical response to one of the things the fallen must have
included in it regarding their sons length of life.
Furthermore, in regards to their hybrid status (half man, half angel) of existence
we are encountered with the terms and conditions of their afterlife as the Book of
the Words of Righteousness tells us:
Enoch 5:28 And now, the giants, who are produced from the spirits and flesh,
shall be called evil spirits upon the earth, and on the earth shall be their dwelling.
Enoch 5:29 Evil spirits have proceeded from their bodies; because they are
born from men and from the Watchers is their beginning and primal origin;
they shall be evil spirits on earth, and evil spirits shall they be called.
Enoch 5:30 And the spirits of the giants afflict, oppress, destroy, attack, do
battle, and work destruction on the earth, and cause trouble. They take no
food, but nevertheless hunger and thirst, and cause offences.
Not having souls, once the giants had died they became roaming spirits of the
earth. Being able to inhabit the bodies of men and women, animals, and other
"forms." Only when reading through the Testament of Solomon do we find
evidence of these evil spirits residing on earth until the final judgement.
Solomon 1:70. And there came before my face another enslaved spirit, having
obscurely the form of a man, with gleaming eyes, and bearing in his hand a
blade. And I asked: "Who art thou?" But he answered: "I am a lascivious spirit,
engendered of a giant man who died in the massacre in the time of the giants." I
said to him: "Tell me what thou art employed upon earth, and where thou hast
thy dwelling
Closing notes and my own personal observations:
Being a former evolutionist (macro), finding about OOPARTS and fossilized
giant human beings around the world compelled me to look for answers outside
the modern scientific religion and into the accounts of historians, scribes, and the
body of knowledge of the divine. The earth and its artifacts seem to testify to its
own past so long as we pay attention to the ancient reporters who so diligently
made the happenings of ancient times known to us through the preservation of
their observations. The more one goes looking for evidence pertaining to giants,
the more one finds. The bulk of information pertaining to these giants seems to
be clustered on the body of biblical knowledge of which no other codex contains
more references or information about. This mystery itself seems best solved by
pouring over the evidence with diligent study performed by reading with not the
eyes but rather the heart.
The Ancient Giants in America? Were these said "giants" the ones that were based in New York, or the ones based around modern day San Francisco?
: Texas Conservative Mon Apr 22, 2024 - 07:34:21The Ancient Giants in America? Were these said "giants" the ones that were based in New York, or the ones based around modern day San Francisco?
No idea. My bloodline does not trace back that far.
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Sun Apr 21, 2024 - 21:18:17Lots of good information in this.
But he still assumes the scope of the flood to be global. If he hadn't, he might have noticed that the date he sets for the flood - 3000 BC - aligns almost perfectly with the date archaeologists give to the Shurappak flood (2900 BC).
The flood narrative is distantly second to the narrative of the purposely changed ages of Seth's descendants by the Masoretic scribes as well as the REASON. There's most often a motive for such things. To me the flood question in the title is an eye grabber not the most important thing addressed. I am a proponent of the flood covering the entire earth, but that is not the reason I posted this video. The reason is the masoretic revision of the ages of Seth's descendants.
: Rella Mon Apr 22, 2024 - 08:57:21No idea. My bloodline does not trace back that far.
Those are sports-ball teams he's talking bout.
: Jaime Mon Apr 22, 2024 - 10:10:26The flood narrative is distantly second to the narrative of the purposely changed ages of Seth's descendants by the Masoretic scribes as well as the REASON. There's most often a motive for such things. To me the flood question in the title is an eye grabber not the most important thing addressed. I am a proponent of the flood covering the entire earth, but that is not the reason I posted this video. The reason is the masoretic revision of the ages of Seth's descendants.
In that case... the video does a good job.
If you're a Bible student, it's probably important to understand that the Masoretes held an anti-Christian bias, and that they monkeyed around with the text.
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Mon Apr 22, 2024 - 10:52:24Those are sports-ball teams he's talking bout.
Jarrod... I know.
That held not relevance to the Enoc tale then did my comment.
TC brough it basically current and as we are talking about long before the world wide flood I simply was, once again
jesting to take it back there.
Obviously you have trouble with how I say things....
Sorry.. Ill go away for a while again
: Rella Mon Apr 22, 2024 - 13:53:44Jarrod... I know.
That held not relevance to the Enoc tale then did my comment.
TC brough it basically current and as we are talking about long before the world wide flood I simply was, once again
jesting to take it back there.
Obviously you have trouble with how I say things....
Sorry.. Ill go away for a while again
No problem. Sarcasm often doesn't hit the mark in a written medium.
: 3 Resurrections Sun Apr 21, 2024 - 17:59:17Rella, in both of these Hebrews texts, the word "worlds" (plural) should be "AGES" (aionas) as in the YLT and other literal versions.
But even though these two Hebrews verses can't be used as proof texts for pre-Adamic inhabitants of this planet, I believe Genesis 1:2 can. The original languages indicate that "the world BECAME without form and void...", as if God had used this globe for other purposes before Creation week, and obliterated the conditions of that world (or even a series of other civilizations) to repurpose this planet for humanity's use.
In other words, I believe it is possible that we could be occupying an extremely ancient planet which was being renovated during Creation week. This would explain the apparent difference between the roughly 6,000-year history of mankind on this planet and the dates which are given to the planet's material elements themselves.
As is always the case, the context of what is being said or discussed, is often the best determinant regarding proper interpretation or application of translation. It seems obvious to me, concerning the context of Heb 1, that worlds is the proper translation which fits the context. Not ages.
Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things,
by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person,
and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 10
And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. 13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? 14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
And again -
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.In the King James version in any case, the word under examination was translated as ages only twice. Where it seems to fit the context well.
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That
in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; 26 Even the mystery which hath been
hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Most versions translate the verse under examination correctly as worlds and or universe, which of course includes all the worlds within it. Not ages.
2 hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom He hath appointed Heir of all things, by whom also He made the
worlds,(KJ21)
2 hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the
worlds;(ASV)
2 [But] in the last of these days He has spoken to us in [the person of a] Son, Whom He appointed Heir and lawful Owner of all things, also by and through Whom He created the
worlds and the reaches of space and the ages of time [He made, produced, built, operated, and arranged them in order].(AMPC)
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the
worlds;(BRG)
2 In these final days, though, he spoke to us through a Son. God made his Son the
heir of everything and created the world through him.(CEB)
2 at the end of these days has spoken to us in [the person of the] Son, whom he has established heir of all things, by whom also he made the
worlds;(DARBY)
2 In these days hath spoken to us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the
world.(DRA)
2 And now in these last days, God has spoken to us again through his Son. He made the whole
world through his Son. And he has chosen his Son to have
all things.(ERV)
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of
all things, through whom also he created the
world.(ESV)
2 [d]Whom he hath made [e]heir of all things, by whom also he made the
worlds,(GNV)
2 But now in these last days God has spoken to us through ·his Son [or a son; 1:3]. God has ·chosen [appointed] his Son to ·own [be heir/inheritor of] all things,
and through him he made the ·world [universe; ages; C comprising both space and time; John 1:3].(EXB)
2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the
worlds;(NKJV)
2 at the last in these days he hath spoken to us by the Son; whom he hath ordained heir of all things, and by whom he made the
worlds.(WYC)
2 But now at last, God sent his Son to bring his message to us. God created the
universe by his Son, and everything will someday belong to the Son.(CEV)
2 In these last days, he has spoken to us by his Son. God has appointed him heir of all things and made the
universe through him.(CSB)
2 But now, in the acharit-hayamim, he has spoken to us through his Son, to whom he has given ownership of everything and through whom he created the
universe.(CJB)
2 But in these last days, he has spoken to us in his Son. In the beginning, God worked through his Son to make the
whole universe. He decided that everything should belong to his Son.(EASY)
2 In these last days, he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the
universe.(EHV)
2 In these last days he has spoken to us through his Son. God made his Son responsible for everything. His Son is the one through whom God made the
universe.(GW)
2 In these last days, He has spoken to us by His Son. God has appointed Him heir of all things and made the
universe through Him.(HCSB)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Z_EZVJLKeI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9FiNgOVqKQ
More ancient ruins. Some of which look more like imprints left in mud rock, lava flow, hardened volcanic ash and or a mixture of the same or more. Deposited, moved around, and chaotically dispersed by the convulsions of the global flood. The structures or items leaving the imprints being long gone. It is obvious as well, these more ancient ruins or imprints were built upon or around by later societies, being long gone now themselves as well.
There may be more ... but I stumbled on this and thought you might be interested???? OR NOT rofl
https://nypost.com/2024/04/04/us-news/mystery-surrounds-peculiar-giant-skeletons-claimed-to-be-found-in-nevada-caves/
Scientists still baffled from giant human skeletons up to 10 feet tall decades after initial discovery
AND https://www.ancientpages.com/2014/03/31/discovery-of-unusual-ancient-skeleton-offers-evidence-giants-inhabited-california/
Discovery Of Unusual Ancient Skeleton Offers Evidence Giants Inhabited California
AND
https://cdnc.ucr.edu/?a=d&d=SFC19080709.2.11&e=-------en--20--1--txt-txIN--------
Remains of Giant Race Are Found Near Santa Monica Beach SPECIAL DISPATCH TO THE CALL LOS ANGELES, July 8— Fourteen skeletons. of giant Indians, supposed. to have roved this section centuries ago, have Just been dug from the, sands of the beach on the Malibu ranch just north of Santa Monica.
Yep. A major cover up, or generations of hoaxers all perpetrating the same one.
Just saw this and tossing it into the mix
https://www.gotquestions.org/sons-of-God.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPNgGnUrCKM
An enlightening video about the truth of what has been happening for a long time now concerning "Archeological sites" which have the potential to ruin present accepted and harshly defended narratives. What they are doing in regards to Gobekli Tepe is not an isolated incident at all. The archeological remains which reveal the truth about the giants of our past, are not at all the only evidences destroyed, hidden, covered over, or intentionally contaminated with reconstructions dreamed up in the minds of agenda driven archeologists and "scientists so called" alone.
No this huge site which those protecting their own narratives against evidences disproving the same, was not intentionally buried by someone thousands of years ago. It was far more likely destroyed and buried by the global flood, and or later catastrophic events connected to the same. There are many sites the world over, which archeologists and scientists of a certain narrative simply abandon because they do not like where the evidence is leading.
This is not to mention the intentional destruction of many, built over or upon to cover them up, or flooded under waters by Damming projects, or simply designated as areas off limits to all but those in the know. While they examine the evidence they hide from others, and or figure out and or facilitate proper narratives to mislead, before revealing the tainted evidences they have altered unto their own agendas.
This will all come out in the laundry, when God reveals all of their deceptions and cover ups, to hide Him and the truths of His word from the masses.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oo9YagKpkz0
I found the above video interesting. It reveals how advanced societies were even 5000 years ago. Though it pictures them as basically primitives according to present faulty narratives. It also questions just exactly what happened to seemingly suddenly end this society. Which I think is obvious of course, a flood, if not the flood. Or catastrophic event later, likely still related to conditions caused by the flood.
I became curious though, as the video addressed artifacts and structures of importance at the site, while basically ignoring the structure right in the middle and atop the entire complex. Which the entire city or complex was obviously it appears, built around. The structure does not seem to be built of the same material or like the rest of the complex built around it. Why would this center of attention be ignored by the presentation and others I viewed in order to get more info and a better look at that structure?
The following video, though not in English, has the best views of that structure I could find.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiTGvNeGo1U
It seems to me, that this site is another possible example of peoples discovering and building upon or around antediluvian artifacts. Which they either honored as evidence of those before them who were more advanced than they were, and or deified and built their religions and or societies upon.
Perhaps there are videos or information relating to this object itself, which could add more light upon the subject. For now, or until then, I'm suspicious of the seeming indifference toward this central and uplifted monument or ruin of Mohenjo Daro.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHK2-MoR9Fs
Lots of underground tunnels and or complexes, locked up and basically hidden from the public. Not that there aren't good reasons to keep just anybody and everybody from trampling through these locations. But what are these tons and tons of materials the video addresses being removed from these underground locations and buried. The video claims there is much evidence of machined artifacts among them. Some which were visible in the video before being buried were obviously stone blocks of no doubt structures which the public has not been privy to. There are still many more underground tunnels and such which the public have no access to, and therefore no chance to examine the contents of for themselves.
We have no idea what they might be destroying and or altering, that might not fit the narratives they have been feeding us. There are historical accounts of many tunnels and very large chambers underground in the area. Just more fuel for conspiracy theories galore. It seems there is an ever increasing amount of good reasons to suspect conspiracies.
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/2131/2131-h/2131-h.htm
Quote below from link above. the quoted paragraph is in and around the 60th paragraph of the document not including the notes section above the rest. Emphasis is mine, my comments in blue.
AN ACCOUNT OF EGYPT
By Herodotus
Translated By G. C. Macaulay
Being set free after the reign of the priest of Hephaistos, the Egyptians, since they could not live any time without a king, set up over them twelve kings, having divided all Egypt into twelve parts. These made intermarriages with one another and reigned, making agreement that they would not put down one another by force, nor seek to get an advantage over one another, but would live in perfect friendship: and the reason why they made these agreements, guarding them very strongly from violation, was this, namely that an oracle had been given to them at first when they began to exercise their rule, that he of them who should pour a libation with a bronze cup in the temple of Hephaistos, should be king of all Egypt (for they used to assemble together in all the temples). Moreover they resolved to join all together and leave a memorial of themselves; and having so resolved they caused to be made a labyrinth, situated a little above the lake of Moiris and nearly opposite to that which is called the City of Crocodiles. This I saw myself, and I found it greater than words can say. For if one should put together and reckon up all the buildings and all the great works produced by Hellenes, they would prove to be inferior in labour and expense to this labyrinth, though it is true that both the temple at Ephesos and that at Samos are works worthy of note. The pyramids also were greater than words can say, and each one of them is equal to many works of the Hellenes, great as they may be; but the labyrinth surpasses even the pyramids. It has twelve courts covered in, with gates facing one another, six upon the North side and six upon the South, joining on one to another, and the same wall surrounds them all outside; and there are in it two kinds of chambers, the one kind below the ground and the other above upon these, three thousand in number, of each kind fifteen hundred. The upper set of chambers we ourselves saw, going through them, and we tell of them having looked upon them with our own eyes; but the chambers under ground we heard about only; for the Egyptians who had charge of them were not willing on any account to show them, saying that here were the sepulchres of the kings who had first built this labyrinth and of the sacred crocodiles. Accordingly we speak of the chambers below by what we received from hearsay, while those above we saw ourselves and found them to be works of more than human greatness. For the passages through the chambers, and the goings this way and that way through the courts, which were admirably adorned, afforded endless matter for marvel, as we went through from a court to the chambers beyond it, and from the chambers to colonnades, and from the colonnades to other rooms, and then from the chambers again to other courts. Over the whole of these is a roof made of stone like the walls; and the walls are covered with figures carved upon them, each court being surrounded with pillars of white stone fitted together most perfectly; and at the end of the labyrinth, by the corner of it, there is a pyramid of forty fathoms, upon which large figures are carved, and to this there is a way made under ground.
Interestingly, among the tons of materials mentioned in the video I shared in the previous post to this one, were many white stone blocks of seemingly equal size and cut. Which can be seen in the video. Possibly linking them to that which I highlighted in the above quote. These were among the many tons of materials that were removed from the underground tunnels and or structures for all we know, and buried. Or basically put out of sight and reach of examination.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caVNJsWJlHI
Another interesting Mystery History. The part about water erosion and extensive removal of encrusted salt from the pyramids, seems worthy of further investigation.
http://www.ancient-wisdom.com/Ghizawhen.htm#6.53
Quoted material below, from link above.
Flood 'Events':
The Greeks wrote of two great floods, which they called Deucalion and Ogyges.
Another possible source for dating the Great Pyramid may be found in sediments surrounding the base of the monument, in legends regarding watermarks on the stones halfway up its sides, and in salt incrustations found within. Silt sediments rising to fourteen feet around the base of the pyramid were found to contain seashells and fossils that have been radiocarbon-dated at nearly twelve thousand years old. These sediments could only have been deposited in such great quantities by major sea flooding; an event the dynastic Egyptians could never have recorded because they were not living in the area until thousands of years after the flood.
In support of this ancient flood scenario, there is a legend that a watermark was clearly visible on the limestone casing stones of the Great Pyramid before the stones were removed by the Arabs. These watermarks were halfway up the sides of the pyramid, or about 400 feet above the present level of the Nile River. Further, when the Great Pyramid was first opened, incrustations of salt an inch thick were found inside. While much of this salt is known to be natural exudation from the stones of the pyramid, chemical analysis has shown that some of the salt has a mineral content consistent with salt from the sea. These salt incrustations, found at a height corresponding to the water level marks left on the exterior, are further evidence that at some time in the distant past the pyramid was partially submerged.
The following is from the book 'Eden in the East' by S. Oppenheimer-
The oceanographic record shows that since the end of the last ice-age, the sea level rose at least 120 metres with three distinct periods of flooding on the following dates'. (Each Flood Period was proceeded by a 'Cold-snap' of 400-1,200 yrs)- 14,000 Yrs ago, 11,000 Yrs ago and 8,000 -7,500 Yrs ago - 'The last flush of the post glacial melt water slowed to a trickle as the rise in sea-level peaked on continental shelves around 5.500 yrs ago Over the next few thousand years the sea level settled back by up to 5m, and the coastline emerged (retreated) again, to a distance of over 100km'...Over this area, from 7,500 - 5,500 Yrs. ago., marine inundation persisted' (i.e. Woolle:. Royal Cemetery of Ur).
In addition to the written records, there is substantial visible evidence of inundation surrounding the Sphinx enclosure (see above).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfBfCkH49D8
This video includes some giant bones of the hand and foot if I remember correctly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBin7G3n4eE
Interesting video about Dolmens. The first dolmen they address within Russia I believe, looks far more like a left over imprint in rock which formed around and or inside a pre flood structure. Most of the others appear to have at least one main high tech looking piece of stone work, surrounded by much more primitive pieces. They seem to me to be more like monuments constructed to honor the pre flood builders who constructed things beyond the scope and capability of those who found the ruins or remains of their works. If not deifying them and erecting these possible idols of worship and praise in perhaps some form of ancestor worship, or made up fables concerning them.
On the other hand, concerning the perfect looking circles in the front stones of many of them, and the many plugs for those holes, they might have been some sort of storage containers. Built by inferior peoples after the flood, employing or using these remnants left them from the Antediluvians. Using the stones from the Antediluvians for the main building block and entrance to the storage unit, built around about with the inferior stone work most of them entail apart from the face stone.
Of course near the end of the video flood scenarios are brought into the picture, but they do not go where scripture testifies concerning the global flood. Which of course leads to other theories in connection with the same, such as those I have proposed concerning and in accordance with my world view. A great many of the "titled megalithic" stone works appear to me, to be more like imprints left in rock which formed around Antediluvian structures. Which themselves have long eroded away either under water, heat, and great pressure, and or being finished off after the flood waters receded in giving away to natural erosion processes. Not to mention possible deconstruction by those after the flood, using the materials themselves for building or other projects, and or possible use of the imprinted rock itself for shelter or what not.
Some day we will have all the answers.
: Rella Mon May 27, 2024 - 10:21:52There may be more ... but I stumbled on this and thought you might be interested???? OR NOT rofl
https://nypost.com/2024/04/04/us-news/mystery-surrounds-peculiar-giant-skeletons-claimed-to-be-found-in-nevada-caves/
Scientists still baffled from giant human skeletons up to 10 feet tall decades after initial discovery
The thing is, unless the evidence is produced, its just hearsay. So need the bones or skulls..
: Hobie Sat Aug 17, 2024 - 10:47:16The thing is, unless the evidence is produced, its just hearsay. So need the bones or skulls..
That's just it, there exists zero evidence other than some fakery which just further makes it all appear as a myth.
: Alan Sat Aug 17, 2024 - 18:31:59That's just it, there exists zero evidence other than some fakery which just further makes it all appear as a myth.
I admit the lack of bones is just too weird for belief... but...
in the video at 42 seconds is a picture of a sandal from the early 1900s that is said to be a size 29. And they claim a handprint inside a cave on a wall measured twice the size or a normal hand.
The sandal was said to have been with other artifacts found, and I asume were tested to be of the same age, or close.
An imbedded handprint.... I guess could be faked.
But at this point would not surprise me to find out these things all relate to aliens who left some trinkets behind when the left for other places.
OR... maybbe... just maybe... bigfoot is real.
This also, boils down to faith in the word of God or not. Either one believes in the testimony of scripture that there were giants, or one does not. Much like the flood though, ancient giant stories are found all over the world among a great many ancient peoples. Stories and accounts which have persisted to this very day.
There have been many accounts of evidences found all over the world, including within the US, which evidences have all mysteriously disappeared. Suggesting either continuous hoaxes throughout history, or continuous cover ups throughout history. Neither the evidences, nor the supposed hoaxes themselves being preserved. You would think the evidence of one or the other, would be preserved somewhere. Though as mentioned already, there are some bones still around, and evidences in stone, which scientists for the most part have no interest in authenticating or proving to be hoaxes.
No doubt there have been hoaxes about giants performed, just as we know there have been evolutionary hoaxes passed on as truth perpetrated as well. One thing both Creationists and Evolutionists know well, is that at some time in our past, plants and animals were obviously of much greater size than they are today. If therefore the biblical account of Creation is in fact an historical account as Creationists believe, it only makes good sense that human beings were much larger at one time as well. A fact which would seriously damage the theory of evolution, if proved true. Therefore is there at least, serious motive to commit a cover up concerning giants.
Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
Num 13:33 And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.
Deu 2:11 Which also were accounted giants, as the Anakims; but the Moabites call them Emims.
Deu 2:20 (That also was accounted a land of giants: giants dwelt therein in old time; and the Ammonites call them Zamzummims;
Deu 3:11 For only Og king of Bashan remained of the remnant of giants; behold, his bedstead was a bedstead of iron; is it not in Rabbath of the children of Ammon? nine cubits was the length thereof, and four cubits the breadth of it, after the cubit of a man.
Deu 3:13 And the rest of Gilead, and all Bashan, being the kingdom of Og, gave I unto the half tribe of Manasseh; all the region of Argob, with all Bashan, which was called the land of giants.
Jos 12:4 And the coast of Og king of Bashan, which was of the remnant of the giants, that dwelt at Ashtaroth and at Edrei,
Jos 13:12 All the kingdom of Og in Bashan, which reigned in Ashtaroth and in Edrei, who remained of the remnant of the giants: for these did Moses smite, and cast them out.
Jos 15:8 And the border went up by the valley of the son of Hinnom unto the south side of the Jebusite; the same is Jerusalem: and the border went up to the top of the mountain that lieth before the valley of Hinnom westward, which is at the end of the valley of the giants northward:
Jos 17:15 And Joshua answered them, If thou be a great people, then get thee up to the wood country, and cut down for thyself there in the land of the Perizzites and of the giants, if mount Ephraim be too narrow for thee.
Jos 18:16 And the border came down to the end of the mountain that lieth before the valley of the son of Hinnom, and which is in the valley of the giants on the north, and descended to the valley of Hinnom, to the side of Jebusi on the south, and descended to Enrogel,
https://lincolnstudies.blogspot.com/2008/06/lincolns-niagara-falls-never-dried.html
Quoted writings of Abraham Lincoln below, from link above. Emphasis is mine.
AL, [c. 25-30 September 1848], in Roy P. Basler, The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln, 9 vols. (New Brunswick, New Jersey: Rutgers University Press, 1953), 2:10-11.
Niagara-Falls! By what mysterious power is it that millions and millions, are drawn from all parts of the world, to gaze upon Niagara Falls? There is no mystery about the thing itself. Every effect is just such as any inteligent man knowing the causes, would anticipate, without [seeing] it. If the water moving onward in a great river, reaches a point where there is a perpendicular jog, of a hundred feet in descent, in the bottom of the river,---it is plain the water will have a violent and continuous plunge at that point. It is also plain the water, thus plunging, will foam, and roar, and send up a mist, continuously, in which last, during sunshine, there will be perpetual rain-bows. The mere physical of Niagara Falls is only this. Yet this is really a very small part of that world's wonder. It's power to excite reflection, and emotion, is it's great charm. The geologist will demonstrate that the plunge, or fall, was once at Lake Ontario, and has worn it's way back to it's present position; he will ascertain how fast it is wearing now, and so get a basis for determining how long it has been wearing back from Lake Ontario, and finally demonstrate by it that this world is at least fourteen thousand years old. A philosopher of a slightly different turn will say Niagara Falls is only the lip of the basin out of which pours all the surplus water which rains down on two or three hundred thousand square miles of the earth's surface. He will estim[ate with] approximate accuracy, that five hundred thousand [to]ns of water, falls with it's full weight, a distance of a hundred feet each minute---thus exerting a force equal to the lifting of the same weight, through the same space, in the same time. And then the further reflection comes that this vast amount of water, constantly pouring down, is supplied by an equal amount constantly lifted up, by the sun; and still he says, ``If this much is lifted up, for this one space of two or three hundred thousand square miles, an equal amount must be lifted for every other equal space, and he is overwhelmed in the contemplation of the vast power the sun is constantly exerting in quiet, noiseless opperation of lifting water up to be rained down again.
But still there is more. It calls up the indefinite past. When Columbus first sought this continent---when Christ suffered on the cross---when Moses led Israel through the Red-Sea---nay, even, when Adam first came from the hand of his Maker---then as now, Niagara was roaring here. The eyes of that species of extinct giants, whose bones fill the mounds of America, have gazed on Niagara, as ours do now. Co[n]temporary with the whole race of men, and older than the first man, Niagara is strong, and fresh to-day as ten thousand years ago. The Mammoth and Mastadon---now so long dead, that fragments of their monstrous bones, alone testify, that they ever lived, have gazed on Niagara. In that long---long time, never still for a single moment. Never dried, never froze, never slept, never rested,
Apparently in the not too distant past, even Presidents of these United States did not consider the many reports of the remains of giants being found within our nation, to be nothing but hoaxes. Of course, Darwin's theory of evolution was nowhere near as widely believed at the time Lincoln penned the above thoughts. Darwins Origin of Species was not even published till eleven years after these thoughts from Abraham Lincoln.
Hmmmmm? Even Presidents of the United States did not consider reports of the remains of giants to be hoaxes, before the theory of evolution became widely accepted as truth. Interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZzj3HyP1g
Things found in coal, that simply do not belong there, if deep time evolution is true. The video of course does not consider a pre-flood civilization, or rapid burial by of these artifacts by the flood and or other later catastrophic events because of it. Which would and does easily explain these seemingly mysterious phenomena.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BXsMgp8KLc
This video is a good example of one of the many ways scientists of the prevailing consensus, hide, destroy, or otherwise obscure investigation of evidences which do not fit their own speculative theories. This kind of thing has been going on for a long time now. Distorting and twisting narratives unto their own views, by withholding many evidences which simply do not support, or might endanger their own.
**WARNING - HAZARD**
THIS THREAD HAS BECOME CONTAGIOUS AND BEGUN INFECTING OTHER TOPICS. IT IS CURRENTLY IN QUARANTINE. THE THREAD WILL BE UNLOCKED ONCE YOU HAVE ALL RECEIVED THE APPROPRIATE SHOTS AND BOOSTERS. :P
Unlocked - it turns out this was a quarantine zone, and closing it caused it to spread faster ::lookaround::
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Mon Sep 09, 2024 - 16:38:27Unlocked - it turns out this was a quarantine zone, and closing it caused it to spread faster ::lookaround::
Well, to keep things tighter together I have copied PART OF my post from
https://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php?PHPSESSID=6106ddc82a515524dfb88e973e5198ed&topic=113574.msg1055218649;topicseen#new to keep it here.
And added more after this.
And within biblical context.
But we all know the biblical mention of said beings.
Could it be a mistranslated word got into the Holy Book?
Biblically we have the most famous account of a giant is Goliath ...1 Samuel 17.
Then we have others that include Goliath the Gittite and the giants at Gath ....2 Samuel 21:19–22, Plus Og the king of Bashan ....Deuteronomy 3:11
and what about the people of Canaan.... Numbers 13:30–33, and the Anakites ... Deuteronomy 9:1–2.
It is not just a simple matter of a one time mention.
Oh, it has often been said the Nephilim were giants because of the sons of God and the daughters of man.
If perchance you do not believe this accounting... how about that of Enoch?
Quote
While the giant Nephilim are barely mentioned in the Genesis narrative, they were the subject of great fascination in later apocalyptic literature, especially the Book of Enoch.
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Key Takeaways
The Nephilim in the Bible were superhuman giants born from unions between divine beings and mortal women, known as "the fallen ones."
The Book of Enoch expands on the Nephilim story, introducing rebellious angels called the Watchers who bring monstrous giants into the world.
Different interpretations exist on the origins of sin: Genesis blames Adam and Eve, while The Book of Enoch shifts the blame to the Watchers and their offspring, presenting a competing narrative in ancient Jewish beliefs.
The above is from
https://people.howstuffworks.com/nephilim.htm
Who Were the Nephilim, the Bible's Mysterious Race of Giants?
AND is well worth a consideration.
However,in addition to biblical evidence for giants, we can look to a few other sources of evidence.
There are accounts of giants in other historical sources, such as the Book of Enoch, the Book of Jasher, and the writings of Josephus, a Jewish historian.
These books relate to us stories of actual people engaged with giants in non-fiction accounts.
Josephus tells of a camp of Hebrews who moved to Hebron and there found "the race of giants, who had bodies so large, and countenances so entirely different from other men, that they were surprising to the sight, and terrible to the hearing. The bones of these men are still shown to this very day."
Note: You believe Josephus for other historical facts... would this be wrong?
The Bible mentions the Book of Jasher (Joshua 10:13 and 2 Samuel 1:18) along with the Book of Jubilees and the Book of Enoch.
All give accounts of the ancient world and reflect the passage in Genesis 6:1–4 that tells of fallen angels impregnating human women to produce Nephilim—giants.
This is the introduction to the account of Noah, who was found to be "blameless in his generation" (Genesis 6:9), which could be interpreted as being purely human and not having a bloodline crossed by the Nephilim.
However, the Anakim and the Rephaim were mentioned after the flood, indicating that some giants remained, or that the fallen angels resumed their relations with human women after the flood.
So it still is a subject of great interest and should be.
OF COURSE there are those who say nothing lived after the flood except Noah's 8 and the animals....
If we consider fallen angels, "then we must consider Scripture teaches that angels are eternal beings. Angels will never die. That is the testimony of Luke 20:34-36."
"Scripture teaches that a third of the angels in heaven joined Satan in rebellion against God and, consequently, were cast down to the earth along with him (Revelation 12:3-4). Later some of these fallen angels violated their "proper abode" or "domain" (Jude 6) and, apparently, possessed the bodies of some women and caused them to give to birth to children. "
https://www.neverthirsty.org/bible-qa/qa-archives/question/fallen-angels-produce-children/
THIS LINK SHOULD BE A NOT TO BE MISSED READ.
I ddid not copy it here as most will not read a long thread.... ::shrug::
Gen 6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. 3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. 4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
There were giants on the earth before the sons of God went in unto the daughters of men. The sons of God were those who remained faithful to God after the fall, not fallen angels. Therefore are the saved referred to as the sons of God as well.
Hos 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Php 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
1Jn 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
The sons of God when in reference to humanity, are God's own among fallen humanity, not angels.
Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli, 24 Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph, 25 Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge, 26 Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda, 27 Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri, 28 Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam, which was the son of Er, 29 Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, 30 Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eliakim, 31 Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David, 32 Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which was the son of Naasson, 33 Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares, which was the son of Juda, 34 Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor, 35 Which was the son of Saruch, which was the son of Ragau, which was the son of Phalec, which was the son of Heber, which was the son of Sala, 36 Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe, which was the son of Lamech, 37 Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan, 38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
But for the fall, we would all still be sons of God.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6IxpxWVSio
Haven't posted a Mystery History in a while. There is a good reason there are stories of a great flood and giants the world over.
https://archaeologynewsnetwork.com/2022/04/24/mystery-of-pyramids-submerged-on-cuba-coast-more-than-50000-years-ago/
quoted article below, from link above. Emphasis is mine.
Mystery Of Pyramids Submerged On Cuba Coast More Than 50,000 Years Ago
In 2001, a Cuban-Canadian research team discovered what could be the ruins of an ancient city that sank more than 50,000 years ago between Yucatan and the western coast of Cuba. The team worked on the "Project Exploramar," which discovered the well-preserved USS Maine, three miles off the Cuban coast at 1150 m depth in 2000.
On December 7, 2001, BBC News announced the discovery of an ancient sunken city with unusual features off the coast of the Guanahacabibes peninsula in the Pinar del Río province of Cuba. It was found using an underwater robot equipped with cameras, lights, and sonars at more than 2,000 feet (650 meters) below the sea's surface covering an area of 2 square kilometres (200 hectares).
The discovery was reported by Canadian Marine Engineer Paulina Zelitsky along with her husband Paul Weinzweig. She stumbled upon the fantastic geometric patterns which she found 2000 feet underwater while studying the grainy, black and white sonar images on her computer screen, searching for a scientific explanation.
Paulina Zelitsky was born in Poland and studied engineering in the former Soviet Union. During the Cold War, she worked on a submarine base in Cuba but defected to Canada, where she married Paul Weinzweig and together, they set up a company called Advanced Digital Communications (ADC).
The expedition that resulted in the discovery of megalithic structures off the coast of Cuba was a joint venture between ADC, the National Geographic Society, and the Centre for Marine Archaeology and Anthropology at the Cuban Academy of Sciences in Cuba. The Cuban government-employed Zelitsky & her team to assist in the location of a sunken treasure that is believed to lie off the coast in a variety of vessels.
The structures, located at a depth of approximately 650 meters, seemed to have an urban pattern and generated significant headlines such as "The Discovery of Atlantis in Cuba." ADA mapped the ocean floor surrounding Cuba for three years under contract with the Cuban government. Using their 265-foot ship, Ulises, they found about 20 shipwrecks, including the USS Maine, and vast oil fields in deep waters around the island.
"The structures we found on the side-scan sonar simply are not explicable from a geological point of view. There is too much organization. too much symmetry, too much repetition of form," Weinzweig said.
Discovery Made
According to Zelitsky, the research vessel Ulises sailed in the Yucatan Channel just off the west coast of Cuba that day, hired by the Castro government to look for undersea oil and gas, as well as old treasure ships if they could be found.
As Zelitsky and Weinzweig were watching the screen, the empty plain of sea bed suddenly gave way to images of massive geometric shapes, apparently cut from stone. As more shapes came into view, some appeared to be arranged in patterns over a large area of about 20 square kilometres.
Some stones seemed to be cut into blocks, and some blocks looked perfectly aligned. They appeared to form corridors and the outlines of rooms, the two scientists said. There were round stones and pyramid-shaped ones, too.
"The sea bottom in that area is an undulating sandplain. What they were seeing should not have been there. We were shocked, and frankly, we were a little frightened. It was as though we should not be seeing what we were seeing. Our first thought was maybe we found some kind of secret military installation," said Zelitsky.
"Nothing is known for certain now," Weinzweig noted, "but the oral tradition in early Mexico speaks of an advanced civilization of tall white people who came from the East, and of an island that sank in a great natural disaster." In the ancient language of some early Central American Indians, he said, "the word Atlantic means 'our good father,' or, 'the place where our good father rests.'"
What if the intriguing shapes found by the sonar are just carved over the centuries by whimsical nature? Zelitsky and Weinzweig did not think so. Besides, she added that they believed it to be the remnants of a city that had been built by locals upon a land bridge connecting Cuba to the mainland at some point, although such a bridge is not known to have ever existed.
"There is no granite in Cuba or the Yucatan. That area features limestone," Zelitsky said. Granite is found in Central Mexico, and was used by ancient people such as the Maya and an older civilization, the Olmec, in their construction of cities and buildings.
This site, perhaps built by a culture that far pre-dates the famous Maya of the Yucatan Peninsula, might have been the victim of a vast, mysterious cataclysm that somehow dropped it 2,000 feet beneath the surface of the sea. The Maya developed a magnificent civilization on the Yucatan Peninsula beginning about A.D. 250 and peaking about A.D. 900. Spain finally completed its conquest of the Maya in about 1500.
The Maya produced advanced architecture, paintings, pottery, and sculpture, and their grasp of mathematics and astronomy was remarkable for that time. They might have developed the first calendar and were among the first to make paper and books of tree bark. They cut large stone blocks and made buildings, courtyards, and pyramids, many for the worship of numerous gods.
But Zelitsky thought the Mega site pre-dates even the ancient Maya by a lot.
Then other voices arose that expressed their opinion about the discovery, such as Archaeologist Keith Fitzpatrick-Matthews of Bad Archeology. According to him, during the ice age, the city would never have been above sea level unless the place it was built on had sunk first.
"However, if we take Plato at his word – as we must if we assume Atlantis to have been a historical place – the violence of its sinking makes it improbable that an entire city could have survived plunging more than 600 m into an abyss. Rapid sinking would devastate structures; the persistence of mud just below the surface suggests that the sinking was not to a depth of 600-740 m. Unless we are prepared to jettison Plato's text – the sole source for the story of Atlantis – we cannot identify the features found by Paulina Zelitsky with Atlantis," he explained.
A similar discovery was made off the coast of Yonaguni Island in Japan in 1986. The find was known as the "Yonaguni Monument," an artificial rock formation submerged in prehistory. There, strange megaliths up to 5 stories high were found.
Are the Cuba underwater ruins really the sunken underwater city? Could it be another evidence of the lost mystical Atlantis? Unfortunately, there is simply not enough imagery data, and the ruins might be anything. Interestingly, there seems to have been no real follow-up expedition to the site, which some have seen as rather suspicious and conspiratorial.
Just add it to the list of sites and artifacts ignored by main stream science, because it might not fit into present possibly false narratives, though many would do their best to cram into them. A bunch of cities found under the ocean, might give credence to the biblical global flood account. So, let's not even go there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyEXwE9iNr0
Very interesting ocean floor anomalies. Remnants of buried antediluvian civilization?
: Amo Wed Oct 09, 2024 - 08:08:43https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyEXwE9iNr0
Very interesting ocean floor anomalies. Remnants of buried antediluvian civilization?
Area seems too large for any buried civilization pre or post flood.
Reminds me of the chisel marks one might see when starting a sculpture and smoothing out the material to start the actual piece.
I focussed more on the smaller ares which he zoomed in upon. Certainly unusually straight and symmetric for the ocean to form. Looks like the ocean sands and silt settled upon something straight and symmetric under it. The long line he followed itself being a wall or raised highway of sorts, if anything at all. We certainly have very long highways and walls. China comes to mind. If we can do it, they most certainly could have. Worth investigation I would say.
: Amo Wed Oct 09, 2024 - 12:51:44I focussed more on the smaller ares which he zoomed in upon. Certainly unusually straight and symmetric for the ocean to form. Looks like the ocean sands and silt settled upon something straight and symmetric under it. The long line he followed itself being a wall or raised highway of sorts, if anything at all. We certainly have very long highways and walls. China comes to mind. If we can do it, they most certainly could have. Worth investigation I would say.
I dont disagree but the area is very large. From what I could see..
SW Austrailia,
Pacific Ocean
South America west of Peru
South America west of Chile
at the 9:15 point Atlantic Ocean between South America and Africa
Then a little more south... South Atlantic ocean
A large area for almost an identical look. ::shrug::
: Rella Wed Oct 09, 2024 - 13:09:12I dont disagree but the area is very large. From what I could see..
SW Austrailia,
Pacific Ocean
South America west of Peru
South America west of Chile
at the 9:15 point Atlantic Ocean between South America and Africa
Then a little more south... South Atlantic ocean
A large area for almost an identical look. ::shrug::
If you think all the separate configurations viewed along the way of the video, have an identical look, then I am not sure you watched entire video. Following the line the video follows, there are many different configurations along side of or next to it. Which is why I suggested the very long line they are all along or next to, could be a very long HWY of sorts, or wall. Such as exist today within many countries. Larger of course, as all would be in a world of giants, compared to us today. Nevertheless, determine as you wish, of course.
https://www.jpost.com/archaeology/article-736139#google_vignette
Quoted article below from link above. Emphasis is mine, my comments in blue.
Archaeologists to find lost underwater civilization with magnetic fields
Magnetic data, like seismic data, is collected by those looking to extract energy sources from the sea floor in order to map out the landscape for construction.
Archaeologists at the University of Bradley are using data from the Earth's magnetic field to discover ancient European settlements buried under the North Sea.
According to a report from the university, these scientists are specifically investigating Doggerland, a stretch of land that once connected mainland Europe with the eastern coast of Great Britain. National Geographic's website explains that, approximately 12,000 years ago, what is now ocean was a series of sloping hills, marshland, wooded valleys and swamps.
The university already has a team dedicated to studying Doggerland; their project is entitled "Europe's Lost Frontiers." Both the Lost Frontiers data and National Geographic agree that humans once settled Doggerland based on evaluations of tools and other artifacts embedded in the sea floor.
Magnetometry, the research method Urmston will be using, has thus far been primarily used for "terrestrial archaeologists," and this will be one of the few attempts to use it to examine an underwater landscape.
Magnetic data, like seismic data, is collected by those looking to extract energy sources from the sea floor in order to map out the landscape for construction. Offshore wind farming companies, according to the university report, have also begun vying for Doggerland real estate.
The United Kingdom, along with dozens of other nations, took the United Nations pledge to reach net-zero carbon emissions by the year 2050. Part of that initiative involves expanding offshore wind power, which, per the university report, will eventually cause parts of Doggerland to be entirely inaccessible to scientists.
This is why the University of Bradford archaeologists are working with climate scientists and engineers to gather as much data as possible while they still can.
What are archaeologists looking for?
"Small changes in the magnetic field can indicate changes in the landscape," explained Urmston, "such as peat-forming areas and sediments, or where erosion has occurred, for example in river channels."
According to the university report, Doggerland was one of the most resource-rich and ecologically diverse regions between approximately 20,000BCE - 4,000 BCE. It was buried at the bottom of the ocean by the global warming that marked the end of the last ice age.
Artifacts discovered thus far have been encountered mostly by chance, the university report explained, which means that knowledge of Doggerland's ancient inhabitants remains elusive.
"As the area we are studying used to be above sea level, there's a small chance this analysis could even reveal evidence for hunter-gatherer activity," said Urmston. "That would be the pinnacle."
"We might also discover the presence of middens, he continued, "which are rubbish dumps that consist of animal bone, mollusk shells and other biological material, that can tell us a lot about how people lived."
Of course a global flood would have also left many areas once inhabited buried under the oceans and or other large masses of water left over from such an event. Which certain narratives refuse to consider. How convenient as well, that there are already mechanisms in place to prevent research in the future if necessary, to prevent narratives which lean toward supporting biblical historical accuracy from being pursued. As so very many sites are presently ignored, or have been conveniently covered over unto inaccessibility.
https://www.vice.com/en/article/there-are-lost-civilizations-under-the-sea-scientists-want-to-find-them-before-its-too-late/
Another article about civilizations buried under water. Evidences just as easily attributable to the global flood of scripture, as rising sea levels of more deep time scenarios.
https://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/ancient-underwater-ruins-atlantis-0011008
Another, among many more I am sure.
https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/archaeology/a43852453/scientists-discover-7000-year-old-stone-road-under-sea/
Another
So, I've been reading Stories from Ancient Canaan, and it contains a story called Rephaim, which is also one of the words in the Bible translated as "giants."
It gives some definition to the word beyond the idea of being large, and I figured I'd share. A few lines from the story
Sun rules the Rephaim,
Sun rules the divine ones:
Your company are the gods,
See, the dead are your company.
in the midst of the Rephaim of the underworld
Set up a stela for his divine ancestor, a votive for his clan in the sanctuary
So aside from being giant, this tells us that the Rephaim...
(a) ...were worshiped as gods by the Amorites
(b) ...that the Amorites considered them to be their ancestors
(c) ...that they were real people long dead but now passed into legend
That all works pretty well with what we know from the Bible, where two of the last Rephaim living were kings of the Amorites.
It also brings up a question - are Rephaim (giants) the same thing as Nephilim (giants)?
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Tue Oct 22, 2024 - 11:15:47So, I've been reading Stories from Ancient Canaan, and it contains a story called Rephaim, which is also one of the words in the Bible translated as "giants."
It gives some definition to the word beyond the idea of being large, and I figured I'd share. A few lines from the story
Sun rules the Rephaim,
Sun rules the divine ones:
Your company are the gods,
See, the dead are your company.
in the midst of the Rephaim of the underworld
Set up a stela for his divine ancestor, a votive for his clan in the sanctuary
So aside from being giant, this tells us that the Rephaim...
(a) ...were worshiped as gods by the Amorites
(b) ...that the Amorites considered them to be their ancestors
(c) ...that they were real people long dead but now passed into legend
That all works pretty well with what we know from the Bible, where two of the last Rephaim living were kings of the Amorites.
It also brings up a question - are Rephaim (giants) the same thing as Nephilim (giants)?[/size]
Good question? But the following link calls into more questions. I bolded a few areas and colored two of interesthttps://shreddingtheveil.org/2016/10/25/giants-rephaim-zamzummim-emim-anakim-nephilim-zuzim/
Giants: Rephaim, Zamzummim, Emim, Amorite, Anakim, Nephilim, Zuzim
It appears that the giants were called by many names, sometimes by the name of the lands they occupied, and other times by their reputation. So, let's take a closer look at the giants of old. For the most part, the references are from Young's Literal Translation as the generic translation of the King James loses some of the connotations regarding these giants. (Young's Literal Translation is choppy because it is a direct word-for-word translation of the Hebrew and Greek texts.)
In Genesis 14, about 400 years after the flood, God speaks of battles between some of the kings in the area which Abram and Lot were living. During one of these battles, Lot and his family are taken captive. We find,
Gen. 14:5, "And in the fourteenth year came Chedorlaomer, and the kings who [are] with him, and they smite the Rephaim in Ashteroth Karnaim, and the Zuzim in Ham, and the Emim in Shaveh Kiriathaim,"
The Rephaim and the Emim were giants (tall people) that were occupying the lands after the flood. As the Zuzim are named with these two tribes, it is probably safe to say that these were also a tribe of giant people. At the very least they were known to be wicked people.
But, we see here that the giants were again in the land. That means that Noah or his sons carried the DNA for these tall people, or they would not again be in the land after the flood.
In speaking to Abram in Gen. chap. 15 of the blessings he would have and of the land promised to his descendants through Isaac, the Israelite, God named the people who then occupied that territory. He told Abram that the iniquity of the Amorite was not yet complete in Gen. 15:16. So, we can know that the Amorite were a wicked people.
Gen 15:18-21, " 18 In that day hath Jehovah made with Abram a covenant, saying, `To thy seed I have given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Phrat, 19 with the Kenite, and the Kenizzite, and the Kadmonite, 20 and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Rephaim, 21 and the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Girgashite, and the Jebusite.'"
The other tribes listed with the Amorite were included in the area which was promised to Abram's descendants through Isaac, and are therefore classed with the Amorite as also being wicked people. All of the people of these lands were wicked and evil.
In Deu. chap. 1, Moses recalled the events that led the Israelite to spend forty years in the wilderness because the spies that had been sent into the land reported in fear of the giants. They did not trust in God to lead them.
Deu 1:28, " whither are we going up? our brethren have melted our heart, saying, A people greater and taller than we, cities great and fenced to heaven, and also sons of Anakim — we have seen there."
Num. 13:22, "And they ascended by the south, and came unto Hebron; where Ahiman, Sheshai, and Talmai, the children of Anak, were. (Now Hebron was built seven years before Zoan in Egypt.)
The children of Anak were the Anakim, and they had lived in Hebron.
Num. 13:28-32,
28 only, surely the people which is dwelling in the land [is] strong; and the cities are fenced, very great; and also children of Anak we have seen there.
29 Amalek is dwelling in the land of the south, and the Hittite, and the Jebusite, and the Amorite is dwelling in the hill country, and the Canaanite is dwelling by the sea, and by the side of the Jordan.'
30 And Caleb stilleth the people concerning Moses, and saith, `Let us certainly go up — and we have possessed it; for we are thoroughly able for it.'
31 And the men who have gone up with him said, `We are not able to go up against the people, for it [is] stronger than we;'
32 and they bring out an evil account of the land which they have spied unto the sons of Israel, saying, `The land into which we passed over to spy it, is a land eating up its inhabitants; and all the people whom we saw in its midst [are] men of stature;
It appears from this report that all of the people of the land of Canaan and Hebron may have been very tall people, or giants. It may be that certain of them had more stature than others because of the reputation their names are given.
When the forty years of wandering in the wilderness were coming to an end, the Israelite passed through other lands on their way to Canaan. God told them not to bother certain lands that he had promised to both Esau and Lot. God told them not to disturb Moab, as he had promised the land of Ar to Lot, and relates that that land had been formerly occupied by the Emim.
Deu. 2:10-11, " The Emim formerly have dwelt in it, a people great, and numerous, and tall, as the Anakim; 11 Rephaim they are reckoned, they also, as the Anakim; and the Moabites call them Emim."
The Emim were compared to the Anakim (the sons of Anak), a great, numerous, and tall people. So, the Emim, or Rephaim, and Anakim were tribes of very tall people, viewed as giants by the rest of mankind. People are men and women and children of the species of man.
Again speaking of the land which God gave to Lot –
Deu. 2::20-21, "A land of Rephaim it is reckoned, even it; Rephaim dwelt in it formerly, and the Ammonites call them Zamzummim; 21 a people great, and numerous, and tall, as the Anakim, and Jehovah destroyeth them before them, and they dispossess them, and dwell in their stead,"
So, the Rephaim were called Zamzummim by the Ammonite, and Emim by the Moabite.
After battling the Amorite, and defeating King Sihon, the Israelite turned to the land of King Og of Bashan, and all his kingdom of Argob.
Deu 3:11, "for only Og king of Bashan had been left of the remnant of the Rephaim; lo, his bedstead [is] a bedstead of iron; is it not in Rabbath of the sons of Ammon? nine cubits its length, and four cubits its breadth, by the cubit of a man."
Og was one of the Rephaim. A common or short cubit was about 18 inches, by the length of an average man's fingertips to his elbow. The long cubit was 20 -22 inches. So, if Og's bed was 9 cubits long x 4 cubits wide, then Og had to be able to fit within that length and width. If we use the short or common cubit of 18 inches, then at a minimum, Og had to be somewhere under 13.5 feet tall in order to lie down on his bed. If we use the long measure, then Og could have been as tall as 16 feet.
Og was the last of the Rephaim, the same giants whom the Ammonite called the Zamzummim, and whom the Moabite called the Emim. They were as tall as another tribe of giants, the sons of Anak called the Anakim. Deu. 4:46-47 says that Og was one of the two kings of the Amorite who were dispossessed, the other being king Sihon.
The Rephaim – known also as Zamzummim, and Emim – were of the Amorite. Amos 2:9 describes the Amorite's height as being "above the cedars" and they were as strong "as the oaks".
In His instructions to the Israelite in Deu. chap. 9 to cross over the Jordan, God told them that He was giving these lands to them because of the promises to their fathers – Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob – and because of the wickedness of the people of the lands; not for their righteousness, but because of the wickedness of these people. Their entry into the "promised land" was a simultaneous judgment upon the wicked people of those lands.
Deu 9:2-, "a people great and tall, sons of Anakim, whom thou — thou hast known, (and thou — thou hast heard: Who doth station himself before sons of Anak?) 3 and thou hast known to-day, that Jehovah thy God [is] He who is passing over before thee — a fire consuming; He doth destroy them, and He doth humble them before thee, and thou hast dispossessed them, and destroyed them hastily, as Jehovah hath spoken to thee."
No one stood against the sons of Anak, the tall and great people known as the Anakim. But, with God going before them, the Israelite did.
The forested land and the valley of the Rephaim was given to one half of the tribe of Manasseh, and was on the northern edge or border of the lands of Israel. (Deu 3:13; Josh. 12:4; 13:12; 15:8; Josh 17:15)
Josh. 11:21-22, " And Joshua cometh at that time, and cutteth off the Anakim from the hill-country, from Hebron, from Debir, from Anab, even from all the hill-country of Judah, and from all the hill-country of Israel; with their cities hath Joshua devoted them. 22 There hath not been left Anakim in the land of the sons of Israel; only in Gaza, in Gath, and in Ashdod, were they left."
The Anakim, sons of Anak, had inhabited the hill country. We find in Joshua chap. 14 that Caleb asked Joshua for that hill country where Caleb had destroyed the Anakim, and dispossessed them. The land was also known as Hebron.
Josh. 14:13-15, " And Joshua blesseth him, and giveth Hebron to Caleb son of Jephunneh for an inheritance, 14 therefore hath Hebron been to Caleb son of Jephunneh the Kenezzite for an inheritance unto this day, because that he was fully after Jehovah, God of Israel; 15 and the name of Hebron formerly [is] Kirjath-Arba (he [is] the great man among the Anakim); and the land hath rest from war."
The giants were men, a great and tall people who were wicked in the sight of God.
The valley of the Rephaim was well known, and was the site of some of the battles David fought with the Philistines. (2 Sam. 5:22; 23:13; 1 Chron. 11:15; 14:9) The King James calls it the valley of the giants in Josh. 15:8; 18:16 where Young's has Rephaim.
Job, answering the charge of Bildad challenges him in chap. 26:
Job 26:5, "The Rephaim are formed, Beneath the waters, also their inhabitants."
The Vulgate translates this as "Behold the giants, and those who dwell with them, groan from under the waters." The Septuagint has it, "Are not the giants formed from under the waters, and their neighbors?" The Chaldee has it, "Can the trembling giants be regenerated, when they and their hosts are under the water?" And, the King James as, "Dead things are formed from under the waters, and the inhabitants thereof."
The meaning is clearly of the state of the dead, and was referring to the wicked giants who were drowned in the great flood of Noah's day. They were dead and gone. The association is therefore made: valley of the giants; same as the valley of the Rephaim; and, therefore understood as the valley of the dead.
In Psa. 88, the sons of Korah had been praying for the Lord to help them with their afflictions and were asking if He would wait until they were dead before He responded to their petitions.
Psa. 88:10, " To the dead dost Thou do wonders? Do Rephaim rise? do they thank Thee? Selah."
Psa 88:5 speaks of the dead as having been cut off by the Lord, meaning that they had no children or descendants left in the land of the living. Cut off means no issue, no children. The Rephaim were dispossessed by Moses, and cut off by the Lord when the tribes of Israel moved into their lands. (Josh. 13:12) The Rephaim were finished, wiped out at that time, but the land was still frequently called by their name for many generations. It was famous as "the valley of the Rephaim."
Young's translation of Prov 2:18 remembers the Rephaim. In speaking of a wicked woman who had forsaken God to walk in paths inclined to death, "For her house hath inclined unto death, And unto Rephaim her paths." The reference is to a dead people who perished because of their wickedness.
Prov. 9:18 speaks of the dead that resided in the depths of hell as the guests of a foolish woman's house, and refers to them as the Rephaim. "And he hath not known that Rephaim [are] there, In deep places of Sheol her invited ones!"
Rephaim is found in Young's Literal Translation in several other places and refers to the dead, or likens wicked people to their dead state, which was the result of their wicked ways. The meaning is clear. God considers anyone compared to the Rephaim as being dead. (See Prov. 21:16, Is. 14:9; 17:5; 26:14; 26:19)
Young's translated the word "Nephilim" in only one place, and that was in Numbers 13:33. In that verse it is a clear reference to giants. Moses sent the spies into the land of Canaan to bring back a report, and they gave an account of the Nephilim, sons of Anak.
Num 13: 33, "and there we saw the Nephilim, sons of Anak, of the Nephilim; and we are in our own eyes as grasshoppers; and so we were in their eyes.'"
The name "Nephilim" was of the same people called the "Anakim", sons of Anak. Young's only has it this one time. He did not use it in Gen 6:4; where the King James has "giants", Young's has "fallen ones." The best reasoning for this difference is that the word "nephilim" is from the root word "nephal," meaning he fell.
Nephilim is the transliteration of Strong's Heb 5303, "נְפִילִים" ; and Strong's concordance has "Or nphil {nef-eel'}; from naphal; properly, a feller, i.e. A bully or tyrant — giant." Source: Biblehub
The giants had become bullies and wicked people most probably because their height and strength gave them advantage over others, which they then used for selfish, evil purposes. Remember that saying – absolute power corrupts absolutely ? They used their power and strength for evil, and became fallen ones – fallen from grace. The fallen ones were (and still are) those people who became wicked children of wrath (Eph. 2:3) and children of disobedience (Eph. 5:6).
The context of the scriptures in Gen 6 governed the translation. Numbers 13:33 was discussing a tribe of giant people called by two names, Nephilim and Anakim. Genesis 6 was discussing the fallen state and wickedness of all mankind. Young's translation stayed with the context of the scriptures in Gen 6 and did not limit the wicked people to just the giants. All of the people had become wicked, and had fallen away from God.
Gen. 6:3, " And Jehovah saith, `My Spirit doth not strive in man — to the age; in their erring they [are] flesh:' and his days have been an hundred and twenty years."
God's spirit was not going to strive, or fight against the spirit of wicked men for much longer. He gave them 120 years to repent.
Romans 8:13-14, "for if according to the flesh ye do live, ye are about to die; and if, by the Spirit, the deeds of the body ye put to death, ye shall live; 14 for as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God;
We have a clear definition of sons of God in Romans chapter 8. They are the ones who follow after and are led by God's spirit.
Genesis chap. 5 presented the lineage of those led by the spirit of God, the faithful line of Adam and his son, Seth through the faithful Noah and his sons. These were led by the spirit of God, and were therefore the Sons of God called in Gen 6.
There is no other acceptable conclusion than that the sons of God in Gen 6:2 were the faithful men of God who unwisely chose women of the unfaithful, and wicked men who lived according to the flesh.
To argue otherwise, that the sons of God in Gen 6:2, and 6:4 were fallen angels is to say that sons of God are not led by the spirit of God. This is a contradiction of the scriptures! They cannot be fallen angels, led by lusts of the flesh, and at the same time be sons of God led by the spirit of God!
Genesis chap 6 was not discussing fallen angels, but fallen, wicked, earth-born men. Wicked men, wicked mankind is the subject matter of Genesis 6. The King James should not have used the word "giants" in Gen 6:4, and the NIV should not have used the transliterated word "Nephilim."
The NIV and other English translations which use "Nephilim" in Gen. 6:4 are not translating it. They should have translated it as fallen mankind so that we would have the full connotation of that word as sinful, earth-born wicked men and women! The correct translation is Young's as "the fallen ones."
The so-called Book of Enoch is a fabrication. It contradicts God's word, and cannot be relied upon for any information. You might as well be discussing Jack and the Beanstalk, or Paul Bunyan and mining these fairy tales for secrets in God's word. It is the same thing as delving into the Book of Enoch. The Book of Enoch is a fairy tale.
God used a smaller, weaker people (the Israelite) to overcome a stronger, and much taller people – the wicked giants – and thereby showed His power, and proof of existence to all of the people of those lands. It was a testimony of His existence to all people.
The DNA for tall or giant people is still carried throughout the blood line of mankind. Goliath, at 6 cubits and a span, was about 9-1/2 ft tall. (1 Sam. 17:4) We have people today who are sometimes 7 feet tall. We see it occur now and then in each generation.
See other posts at the right margin including "Nephilim...Fallen Ones?", Nephilim...Reprise: And The Sons of God", and "The Book of Enoch – Fable or Truth". All bold emphasis is mine.
(Expanded and edited May 2018.)
: Rella Wed Oct 23, 2024 - 06:24:36Good question? But the following link calls into more questions. I bolded a few areas and colored two of interest
https://shreddingtheveil.org/2016/10/25/giants-rephaim-zamzummim-emim-anakim-nephilim-zuzim/
Thanks for sharing the fascinating article.
: articleThe meaning is clearly of the state of the dead, and was referring to the wicked giants who were drowned in the great flood of Noah's day. They were dead and gone. The association is therefore made: valley of the giants; same as the valley of the Rephaim; and, therefore understood as the valley of the dead.
The Rephaim are definitely dead, but the reference to waters isn't necessarily to a flood. In most mythologies men pass into the underworld through waters. For the Greeks, it's the river
Styx. The Babylonian underworld is the
Absu (abyss) which is made of water.
Even in the Bible,
Sheol has a strong affinity with waters. For instance, in the book of Jonah, the prophet goes down to Sheol by means of the great fish, and he is entangled by seaweed there. But I digress...
From reading their mythology, I now know that the Amorites don't conceive of their Rephaim as outsiders or coming from somewhere else... they certainly don't think of them as angels who fell. Kind of the opposite - in their stories they start as men, and they become divine
after their death.
Anyway, the article takes issue with Enoch at the end, but I think the author is trying to understand Enoch too literally. He has (correctly) interpreted the Bible's giants to be men, but has not extended the same interpretation to Enoch's angels and giants.
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Wed Oct 23, 2024 - 12:24:31Thanks for sharing the fascinating article.
The Rephaim are definitely dead, but the reference to waters isn't necessarily to a flood. In most mythologies men pass into the underworld through waters. For the Greeks, it's the river Styx. The Babylonian underworld is the Absu (abyss) which is made of water.
Even in the Bible, Sheol has a strong affinity with waters. For instance, in the book of Jonah, the prophet goes down to Sheol by means of the great fish, and he is entangled by seaweed there. But I digress...
From reading their mythology, I now know that the Amorites don't conceive of their Rephaim as outsiders or coming from somewhere else... they certainly don't think of them as angels who fell. Kind of the opposite - in their stories they start as men, and they become divine after their death.
Anyway, the article takes issue with Enoch at the end, but I think the author is trying to understand Enoch too literally. He has (correctly) interpreted the Bible's giants to be men, but has not extended the same interpretation to Enoch's angels and giants.
What I want to know is why archeologists never turn up a giant bone?
If there were all these tall people... even just 7 to 8 ft tall... where are the bones?
They cannot all have been eaten........
Or any others from Gen forward.....?
The discussion surrounding the Rephaim and their connection to thunderworld raises intriguing points about ancient beliefs and interpretations of scripture. The Rephaim, often associated with giants in biblical texts, are also linked to the spirits of the dead in various Near Eastern mythologies, suggesting a dual identity that reflects both their earthly existence and their afterlife.
Underworld Associations
In many ancient cultures, including the Babylonian and Ugaritic traditions, the underworld is depicted as a watery realm. The Rephaim are frequently mentioned in relation to Sheol, where they are seen as shades or spirits of the deceased. This connection emphasizes a common theme across mythologies: the transition into the afterlife often involves crossing through waters, symbolizing a passage from the living world to the realm of the dead.
The Nature of the Rephaim
The text highlights that the Amorites viewed the Rephaim not as outsiders or fallen angels but as men who became divine after death. This perspective contrasts with some interpretations of biblical giants, suggesting that these figures were once mortal and gained a form of divinity posthumously. This notion aligns with other ancient beliefs where heroes or significant figures were venerated after death, further complicating our understanding of their role in mythology.
Enoch and Interpretation
The commentary on Enoch's portrayal of angels and giants suggests that there may be a tendency to interpret these figures too literally. While some scholars view the giants as human beings, they may overlook similar interpretations regarding angels in Enoch's writings. This inconsistency raises questions about how we approach ancient texts and their symbolism.
Conclusion
In summary, the Rephaim serve as a fascinating example of how ancient cultures understood life, death, and divinity. Their dual identity as both giants and spirits reflects a complex interplay between mortality and the afterlife. As we explore these themes further, it becomes clear that interpretations can vary widely based on cultural context and textual analysis, inviting ongoing dialogue about their significance in both mythology and scripture.
_________________________
: podnad Thu Oct 24, 2024 - 08:38:15The discussion surrounding the Rephaim and their connection to thunderworld raises intriguing points about ancient beliefs and interpretations of scripture. The Rephaim, often associated with giants in biblical texts, are also linked to the spirits of the dead in various Near Eastern mythologies, suggesting a dual identity that reflects both their earthly existence and their afterlife.
Underworld Associations
In many ancient cultures, including the Babylonian and Ugaritic traditions, the underworld is depicted as a watery realm. The Rephaim are frequently mentioned in relation to Sheol, where they are seen as shades or spirits of the deceased. This connection emphasizes a common theme across mythologies: the transition into the afterlife often involves crossing through waters, symbolizing a passage from the living world to the realm of the dead.
The Nature of the Rephaim
The text highlights that the Amorites viewed the Rephaim not as outsiders or fallen angels but as men who became divine after death. This perspective contrasts with some interpretations of biblical giants, suggesting that these figures were once mortal and gained a form of divinity posthumously. This notion aligns with other ancient beliefs where heroes or significant figures were venerated after death, further complicating our understanding of their role in mythology.
Enoch and Interpretation
The commentary on Enoch's portrayal of angels and giants suggests that there may be a tendency to interpret these figures too literally. While some scholars view the giants as human beings, they may overlook similar interpretations regarding angels in Enoch's writings. This inconsistency raises questions about how we approach ancient texts and their symbolism.
Conclusion
In summary, the Rephaim serve as a fascinating example of how ancient cultures understood life, death, and divinity. Their dual identity as both giants and spirits reflects a complex interplay between mortality and the afterlife. As we explore these themes further, it becomes clear that interpretations can vary widely based on cultural context and textual analysis, inviting ongoing dialogue about their significance in both mythology and scripture.
Did you write this just now, or are you quoting from somewhere else? If you are quoting, you should cite your source.
Another interesting article....
The Riddle of the Rephaim
https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/the-riddle-of-the-rephaim/
Exploring the mysterious demigods of the Bible
Jonathan Yogev March 08, 2023 3 Comments 17392 views Share
An illustration of the War in Heaven for Milton's Paradise Lost by Gustave Doré. {{PD-US}}
The identification of the beings known as "Rephaim" in biblical and ancient Near Eastern sources has caused much bewilderment throughout the years. Biblical dictionaries and encyclopedias usually provide two main meanings for the word: (1) ghosts or shades of the dead, and (2) a mythical and ancient race of giants. These meanings are mostly derived from the mentions of the Rephaim in the Bible.
The Rephaim appear in the Bible in a variety of contexts. Here are some examples (author's translation):
Only King Og of the Bashan was left of the remaining Rephaim. His bedstead, an iron bedstead, is now in Rabbah of the Ammonites; it is nine cubits long and four cubits wide, by a standard cubit.
Deuteronomy 3:11
After this, fighting broke out with the Philistines at Gezer; that was when Sibbecai the Hushathite killed Sipai, a descendant of the Rephaim, and they were humbled.
1 Chronicles 20:4
Do you work wonders for the dead? Do Rephaim rise to praise you?
Psalm 88:11-12
It will save you from the forbidden woman, from the alien woman whose talk is smooth. ... Her house sinks down to Death, and her course leads to the Rephaim.
Proverbs 2:16-18
The dead will not live, the Rephaim will not rise, you punished them and brought them to ruin; you wiped out all memory of them.
Isaiah 26:14
Were the Rephaim great warriors or leaders, such as King Og or the Philistine generals? Were they affiliated with a certain nation or people? Is the word Rephaim a synonym for the dead? Why were they considered to be so frightening in the afterlife? And why did God take it upon himself to punish and destroy them?
If we go over the dozens of references to the Rephaim in the Bible, we see that it is very difficult to reach a single clear conclusion about their identity. Luckily, we have other sources from the ancient Near East that mention them. The first source is the Ugaritic texts, written in alphabetic cuneiform. These texts were mostly found in the ancient city of Ugarit in northern Syria in the mid-20th century. They tell much of the mythical concepts and belief systems of the people who lived there during the Bronze Age until the destruction of the city (c. 1200 B.C.E.). Some of these concepts are also known from the Bible, such as rituals associated with the gods Baal and Asherah.
What do we know of the Rephaim in Ugaritic texts? They are heroes, warriors, judges, kings, and demigods, much like Heracles or Theseus in Greek myths. They are beloved and celebrated both by gods and men, in life and death.
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The word Rephaim is also found in three Phoenician burial inscriptions. These inscriptions share similar concepts with the Ugaritic texts: The Rephaim were ancient heroes and kings, and once they perished, they dwelled together in a specific place in the underworld.
Although we have plenty of sources that mention the Rephaim, scholars still debate their identity. The Rephaim have been affiliated with or depicted as: (1) shades of the dead or a specific group among the dead; (2) healers or physicians; (3) ancestors; (4) kings, rulers, judges, heroes, and generals; (5) gods or demigods; (6) giants or titans; (7) an ethnic group or tribe; and (8) household gods (biblical teraphim) or fertility deities.
In my recent study, I tried to unlock the riddle of the Rephaim in the ancient Near East using two main keys.1 The first is to prioritize the archaeological evidence, namely ancient inscriptions, which depict the Rephaim in a clearer sense than the Bible, which was edited and corrected according to different agendas over hundreds of years.
The second is to analyze the negative treatment of the Rephaim in the Bible. Whenever we encounter the Rephaim in biblical texts, they are either dead or being killed, enemies of Israel and of God, giants, monstrous humans, and objects of terror. It seems that although the Rephaim were highly regarded by many ancient Near Eastern peoples, they were hated and reviled by the biblical authors. What is it about them that causes God to struggle against them and their memory, and why are they still demonized long after death?
The fact that the Rephaim are considered to be demigods and the mortal descendants of the gods in the ancient Levant could not be tolerated through mono�theistic perceptions. Monotheistic belief systems were fragile in ancient Israel and caused great dispute among the people, prophets, priests, and monarchy. The idea that some men might be divine or descendants of God was thought outrageous, as presented in Genesis 6:1-4, when a race of heroes (Nephilim) with divine blood is born to the "sons of God" and the "daughters of men."a This race is later identified with giants and Rephaim whom the biblical writers believe need to be eliminated. This can also be demonstrated through the eyes of the prophets, who ridicule foreign kings who presented themselves as gods (see Isaiah 14:1-23; Ezekiel 28:1-9).
The Rephaim can be found in various places throughout the Levant, including Canaan, Philistia, Judah, Ammon, Moab, Bashan, Syria, and Phoenicia. This suggests a shared concept, which likely originated in a single place and then spread to different societies in the ancient Levant. The concept identifies a beloved ruler as a part of an ancient divine bloodline of mortal heroes, which provides justification for his own bloodline to rule.
In biblical texts, however, the idea of a semi-divine monarch or a leader cannot be tolerated. The concept of the Rephaim needed to be eradicated from the belief system of Israel and Judah, and this explains the negative treatment they receive in the Bible, which is the complete opposite of how they are viewed in Ugaritic and Phoenician sources.
Notes:
1. See Jonathan Yogev, The Rephaim: Sons of the Gods, Culture and History of the Ancient Near East 121 (Leiden: Brill, 2021).
a. See, e.g., Jaap Doedens, Biblical Profiles: "Exploring the Story of the Sons of God," BAR, Summer 2020.
Jonathan Yogev is a lecturer in the Bible Department at Kaye Academic College of Education in Beersheba, Israel.
OK, this is the last I will post because it firms up my mind of the existence of Giants.....
And then begs why? What was their purpose.
God obviously had them come into being. But just a strange idea.
If the days stretched longer in Genesis, Creation, as was suggested by...
I am sorry I dont remember his name.... recently....
Is it possible God had a creation that came before he wanted Adam ?
Could earth have been for a different purpose before ?
They just found a large dinosaur bone in Hong Kong.
145 million to 66 million years ago,
Then https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2022/08/27/europe-largest-dinosaur-bones-portugal/7907212001/
A man found dinosaur bones in his yard. It could lead to largest skeleton ever found in Europe
The creature discovered likely lived 100 to 160 million years ago and measured roughly 39 feet tall and 82 feet long, the researchers said.
Then
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/meet-cooper-largest-dinosaur-bones-unearthed-australia-180977927/
Two Farmers Found the Largest Dinosaur Ever Unearthed in Australia
While other titanosaur species were found in Australia before, Cooper is significantly larger. It is estimated that Cooper weighed 70 tons, stood at two stories tall, and measured 82 to 98 feet in length—or about the size of a basketball court, the New York Times reports.
All really really big... and their bones are found.
But no human bones of said giants ever???????? WHY?
It is certain that Noah never put these dinosaur things on the Ark?
It is almost as if earth had two, or more purposes?
See this article...
https://knowingscripture.com/articles/giants-in-the-land-a-biblical-theology-of-the-nephilim-anakim-rephaim-and-goliath
Giants in the Land: A Biblical Theology of the Nephilim, Anakim, Rephaim (and Goliath)
Zachary Garris Giants, 1-2 Samuel
Christians, including many pastors and scholars, tend to gloss over the references to giants in the Bible. Yet giants play an important role in the biblical story, particularly in relation to their occupation of the Promised Land. As will be seen, Israel initially refused to enter the land because of giants, and only men of great faith (Joshua, Caleb, and David) were able to defeat them.
The Sons of God and Giant Nephilim (Genesis 6:1-4)
The first mention of giants in the Bible is the Nephilim in Genesis 6:1-4. I have previously argued that the "sons of God" were spirit beings that mated with women and produced the Nephilim. The phrase "sons of God" elsewhere refers to spirit beings/angels (Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7), and Genesis 6:1-2 contrasts this group with all of mankind (not some subset such as Cain's line), meaning they are non-human. The common view that this was the mixing of the lines of Seth and Cain assumes that everyone in Seth's line was godly and everyone in Cain's line was wicked. This is not something the text ever claims. Furthermore, alternative views (also including the kingly-line view) fail to explain how this intermarriage produced mighty (giant) warriors:
The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown (Genesis 6:4).
It is important to note that Genesis 6:4 never explicitly calls the Nephilim "giants." However, the Nephilim have often been considered giants because of the description of the giants in the land as those who come from the Nephilim in Numbers 13:32-33. Also, the Septuagint translates both the Hebrew נְּפִלִ֞ים (Nephilim) and גִּבֹּרִ֛ים (gibborim, "mighty men" or "men of renown") in Genesis 6:4 as γίγαντες (gigantes, "giants").[1] (It may be that the Septuagint translated Nephilim as "giants" because of the account in Numbers 13, though some think Nephilim comes from the Aramaic word naphiyla for giant.[2])
Whether descendants of the Nephilim were actually in the land of Canaan is uncertain, as the Israelite spies may have been exaggerating their account. However, exaggeration is unlikely because Genesis 6:4 says the Nephilim were on the earth "in those days, and also afterward" and the link between the Anakim and Nephilim in Numbers 13:33 seems to be an editorial comment (possibly referring back to Numbers 6:4). At minimum, the claim in Numbers 13:33 shows that the Israelites were aware that the Nephilim of old had a reputation of being giants (more on this below).
In the context of Genesis 6, God sent the flood to wipe out violent humans, including the Nephilim, seen in the language of "all flesh" (Genesis 6:12-13). God continued the human race through Noah, a new Adam, who was not tainted by Nephilim blood. Noah's direct lineage is given all the way back to Adam (Genesis 5:1-32), and he is said to be "blameless in his generations" (Genesis 6:9), possibly referring to his pure line—notice the plural "generations" (דֹֽרֹתָ֑יו). In spite of the flood, giants eventually made a comeback and dwelt in the land of Canaan.
Nephilim and Anakim in the Land of Canaan (Numbers 13:21-33)
Numbers 13 is the key passage on giants in the land of Canaan. When Israel left Egypt and was in the wilderness seeking to enter the Promised Land, Moses sent 12 Israelite spies (one from each tribe) to Canaan. The spies were to scout out the land and assess "whether the people who dwell in it are strong or weak" (Numbers 13:18). The spies returned to Moses after 40 days and gave a good report about the land—"It flows with milk and honey, and this is its fruit" (Numbers 13:27). However, they gave a bad report about the people in the land:
However, the people who dwell in the land are strong, and the cities are fortified and very large. And besides, we saw the descendants of Anak there. The Amalekites dwell in the land of the Negeb. The Hittites, the Jebusites, and the Amorites dwell in the hill country. And the Canaanites dwell by the sea, and along the Jordan (Numbers 13:28-29).
Caleb, one of the spies, urged Israel to go up and occupy the land, but the other spies (except Joshua) said they were not able because the people there were stronger (Numbers 13:30-31). Then the "bad report" got even worse:
The land, through which we have gone to spy it out, is a land that devours its inhabitants, and all the people that we saw in it are of great height. And there we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak, who come from the Nephilim), and we seemed to ourselves like grasshoppers, and so we seemed to them (Numbers 13:32-33).
The spies lacked faith and were rightly judged for their unbelief. Israel was made to wander the wilderness for 40 years (one year for each day of spying) so that the adults would all die out. God even killed the 10 unfaithful spies with a plague, sparing only Caleb and Joshua (Numbers 14:20-38). However, what concerns us here is the report of giants in the land. Was their report accurate? If so, this would help explain why the spies were so fearful.
While it is possible that the spies were exaggerating their account of the people in the land, this exaggeration must be limited. This is because Moses confirms the spies' account in Deuteronomy 9:1-2, where he says that Israel would cross the Jordan to "dispossess nations greater and mightier than you, cities great and fortified up to heaven, a people great and tall, the sons of the Anakim, whom you know, and of whom you have heard it said, 'Who can stand before the sons of Anak?'" (cf. Deuteronomy 1:28; 2:10). The people in the land, particularly the Anakim, were in fact tall and mighty.
Who were the Anakim? They were descendants of a man name Anak, whom we are told had three sons, Sheshai, Ahiman, and Talmai (Joshua 15:14; Judges 1:10, 20). Joshua later devoted the Anakim to destruction, only leaving them in Gaza, Gath, and Ashdod (Joshua 11:21-22). (1 Samuel 17:4 says that Goliath was from Gath, leading us to conclude he was a descendant of Anak.) Caleb is said to have driven out the Anakim from Hebron (Joshua 14:12; 15:14; Judges 1:20), a city that was formerly called Kiriath-arba, named after Arba, who "was the greatest man among the Anakim" (Joshua 14:15; cf. Judges 1:10).
Numbers 13:33 mentions that these sons of Anak "come from the Nephilim" (which is the only explicit connection between the Anakim and Nephilim in Scripture). Is this claim correct? Since Moses never mentions the Anakim as coming from the Nephilim, this may be the part that the spies fabricated in order to support their case against entering the land. However, there are three reasons for believing the statement in Numbers 13:33 is correct and that the Anakim in fact came from the Nephilim:
Genesis 6:4 says the Nephilim were on the earth at a later time—"The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward." The "afterward" is presumably after the flood. Numbers 13:33 is the only other mention of Nephilim in Scripture, so this would explain the comment in Genesis 6:4.
The spies' claim to have seen the Nephilim in Numbers 13:33 is followed with what reads like an editorial comment that seeks to connect the reference of the "sons of Anak" in 13:28 with the reference to Nephilim in 13:33—"the sons of Anak, who come from the Nephilim." In this case, the author of Numbers considered the spies' report of the Nephilim accurate and then added his own explanation that the Anakim came from the Nephilim.
This connection between Anakim and the Nephilim in Numbers 13:33 is the only apparent explanation as to why some of the Canaanites were so tall. While some scholars suggest that these were only giants relative to the shorter Israelites (meaning six feet would be tall), Og's bed and Goliath's height suggest these were in fact genuine giants over nine feet tall (see below).
If the giants in the land came from the Nephilim, how did this happen when the Nephilim were wiped out in the flood? While some argue that the flood was only local, this would still be an unlikely explanation because the flood was intended to wipe out the Nephilim in Genesis 6. Thus there are two likely explanations: (1) The same event transpired later in history, as spirit beings again bred with women and produced more Nephilim; (2) Nephilim genes were passed down through Noah's daughters-in-law. These wives of Ham, Shem, and Japheth were not descended from Noah and thus potentially had Nephilim genes in them.
Moses Defeats Og of Bashan, One of the Last Rephaim (Deuteronomy 3)
Israel was afraid of the giants in the land of Canaan, and it would have to be a later generation that dealt with the giants under Joshua's leadership. However, Israel still had to deal with a giant while in the in the wilderness, Og of Bashan. As Israel went up the way to Bashan, King Og came out against them for battle.
Yahweh gave Og into Israel's hand, and they "devoted" Og's people to destruction (herem), leaving no survivors, just as they had done to Sihon king of the Amorites (Deuteronomy 3:6). (This victory is celebrated in Psalm 135:11 and 136:20.) We are told that both Og and Sihon were considered Amorite kings (Deuteronomy 3:8). Then we read this fascinating verse:
For only Og the king of Bashan was left of the remnant of the Rephaim. Behold, his bed was a bed of iron. Is it not in Rabbah of the Ammonites? Nine cubits was its length, and four cubits its breadth, according to the common cubit (Deuteronomy 3:11).
Seeing that a cubit was about 18 inches, Og's bed was about 13 feet 6 inches long. This suggests he was a giant. On top of this, Og is said to be the last remnant of the Rephaim. Both Joshua 12:4 and 13:12 also say Og was of the remnant of the Rephaim, which the LXX interestingly translates as "giants" (γιγάντων).
Who were the Rephaim? They were likely the descendants of a giant named Rapha. Rapha (רָפָה) is mentioned six times in the Bible (2 Samuel 21:16, 18, 20, 22; 1 Chronicles 20:6, 8), in contrast to the more common plural Rephaim (רְפָאִ֥ים). Though some translations like the ESV take this as "giants," Rapha is probably a proper name.
Deuteronomy 2 provides some interesting information about the Rephaim. It says the Rephaim were as "tall as the Anakim," but were mostly wiped out by Yahweh (Deuteronomy 2:21). The Ammonites called the Rephaim by the name "Zamzummim" (Deuteronomy 2:20). Deuteronomy 2:10-11 says that the "Emim" were also as "tall as the Anakim," but then it says that both the Anakim and Emim "are also counted as Rephaim." This is important, as it links the Anakim with the Rephaim. While Og was one of the last of the Rephaim, there were still Rephaim in the land, namely the Anakim and the "descendants of Rapha" in 2 Samuel 21:16, 18, 20, 22.
The prior information sheds interesting light on Genesis 14:5-7, where Chedorlaomer "defeated the Rephaim in Ashteroth-karnaim, the Zuzim in Ham, the Emim in Shaveh-kiriathaim, and the Horites in their hill country of Seir," in addition to defeating Amalekites and Amorites. It seems Chedorlaomer fought three groups of giants—the Rephaim (the Septuagint actually translates Rephaim in Genesis 14:5 as γίγαντας, "giants"), the Zuzim (which is probably the Zamzummim of Deuteronomy 2:20), and the Emim (Deuteronomy 2:10-11). The Amorites may also have been giants. Amos 2:9-10 says, "the Amorite before them, whose height was like the height of the cedars," and Og was also an Amorite (Deuteronomy 3:8).
What is all the more fascinating is that Abraham then went and defeated Chedorlaomer—the giant killer—in order to rescue his nephew Lot (Genesis 14:14-17). These groups, including the Amalekites, Amorites, and Anakim-Rephaim, were still in the land during the time of Joshua (Numbers 13:29, 33). Thus Abraham's victory in Genesis 14 is a foretaste of Joshua's later victories over the giants in the land of Canaan.
It is of note that the region of Bashan was in the land of the Rephaim. Og was king of Bashan, and Og was one of the Rephaim giants. But Deuteronomy 3:13 makes this land connection explicit—"The rest of Gilead, and all Bashan, the kingdom of Og, that is, all the region of Argob, I gave to the half-tribe of Manasseh. (All that portion of Bashan is called the land of Rephaim . . . " Scripture calls this both the "land of the Rephaim" (Joshua 17:15) and the "Valley of Rephaim" (Joshua 18:16; 2 Samuel 5:18, 22; 23:13; 1 Chronicles 11:15; 14:9; Isaiah 17:5). Bashan is seen as a place of darkness in the Old Testament and may even be called the "mountain of the gods" (Psalm 68:15). The Hebrew הַר־אֱ֭לֹהִים (har elohim) can be translated as "mountain of God" (as per the ESV) or "mountain of gods" (so false gods/spirit beings) which may make more sense due to the negative associations with Bashan elsewhere.
The Rephaim are also associated in the OT with Sheol, the place of the dead. They are said to be inhabitants of Sheol in the following passages: Isaiah 14:9; 26:14, 19; Psalm 88:10; Job 26:5-6; Proverbs 2:18; 9:18; 21:16. The Hebrew Rephaim is in every one of these passages, yet you would never see this in the English if reading translations like the ESV, NASB, or KJV. Instead, the ESV uses words like "shades," "dead," and "departed." If we leave Rephaim untranslated, this may reveal the role of the dead giants in Sheol, which is distinguished from other dead beings there. The Rephaim are said to rise up to greet the Babylonians when they sink down to Sheol in death (Isaiah 14:9). The false gods that Israelites at times worshipped are described as dead Rephaim that will not rise (Isaiah 26:14). The Psalmist asks whether the Rephaim will rise up to praise God (Psalm 88:10-11; cf. 88:3). The other passages highlight the Rephaim as inhabitants of Sheol (Job 26:5-6; Proverbs 2:18; 9:18; 21:16).
Joshua and Caleb Drive Out the Anakim (Joshua 11; 14–15)
Once Israel entered the land of Canaan under Joshua's leadership, they had to face the Anakim that the spies in Numbers 13 had feared 40 years prior. Joshua had to be strong and courageous, but with Yahweh fighting for them, he was able to drive out the Canaanites, including the giants (Deuteronomy 1:30-31).
Joshua and Caleb were the only two of the 12 spies who believed that Yahweh would give them victory over the giants in the land (Numbers 13:30; 14:6-9), and thus they were the only two allowed to enter the land 40 years later (Numbers 14:30). It is therefore fitting that Joshua and Caleb drove out those giants, which they did by faith in Yahweh:
And Joshua came at that time and cut off the Anakim from the hill country, from Hebron, from Debir, from Anab, and from all the hill country of Judah, and from all the hill country of Israel. Joshua devoted them to destruction with their cities. There was none of the Anakim left in the land of the people of Israel. Only in Gaza, in Gath, and in Ashdod did some remain (Joshua 11:21-22).
Joshua cut off the Anakim and "devoted" (herem) them to destruction (Joshua 11:21), thus carrying out Yahweh's command for Israel to "devote" the Canaanites to destruction (Deuteronomy 7:1-2). This practice is known as "the ban," or simply by its Hebrew term חרם (herem), which means to "devote" something to God. The Israelites were to kill the Canaanites as an offering to Yahweh. Though not the primary point of God's command, the destruction of the Canaanites included the giants who were in the land. Joshua only left the Anakim in three Philistine cities—Gaza, Gath, and Ashdod (Joshua 11:22).
Caleb went to Joshua and said that he was as strong at 85 years of age as he was at 45, after 40 years of wandering in the wilderness (Joshua 14:6-11). Caleb then asked Joshua for Hebron, the land of the Anakim:
So now give me this hill country of which the LORD spoke on that day, for you heard on that day how the Anakim were there, with great fortified cities. It may be that the LORD will be with me, and I shall drive them out just as the LORD said. Then Joshua blessed him, and he gave Hebron to Caleb the son of Jephunneh for an inheritance. Therefore Hebron became the inheritance of Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenizzite to this day, because he wholly followed the LORD, the God of Israel. Now the name of Hebron formerly was Kiriath-arba. (Arba was the greatest man among the Anakim.) And the land had rest from war (Joshua 14:12-15).
Hebron was the land of the three sons of Anak (Numbers 13:22). So Caleb received the land of Hebron and drove out the "three sons of Anak, Sheshai and Ahiman and Talmai, the descendants of Anak" (Joshua 15:14; cf. Judges 1:10, 20). Together, Joshua and Caleb drove out the giants that the 10 other spies feared 40 years before.
David Kills Goliath (1 Samuel 17)
As we have seen, Joshua left some Anakim remaining in the Philistine cities of Gath, Gaza, and Ashdod (Joshua 11:22). This is significant for several reasons. First, this means the task that God gave Israel to drive out the Canaanites was not complete (seen more clearly in Judges 1–2). Second, the Philistines, with whom the Anakim remained, became Israel's chief enemy during the time of Samuel. And third, the Philistines' champion in 1 Samuel 17 was from Gath.
This puts David's battle with Goliath in proper context. Goliath was from Gath, one of the three Philistine cities where Anakim remained. Goliath also receives the most explicit description of a giant in all of Scripture:
And there came out from the camp of the Philistines a champion named Goliath of Gath, whose height was six cubits and a span. He had a helmet of bronze on his head, and he was armed with a coat of mail, and the weight of the coat was five thousand shekels of bronze. And he had bronze armor on his legs, and a javelin of bronze slung between his shoulders. The shaft of his spear was like a weaver's beam, and his spear's head weighed six hundred shekels of iron (1 Samuel 17:4-7).
David did not just defeat some random giant that Saul and the Israelites feared. Rather, Goliath was a remnant of the Anakim that Israel was supposed to drive out of the land of Canaan. The Anakim apparently became aligned with Israel's new enemy, the Philistines. In killing Goliath, David was finishing the task of herem in Deuteronomy 7 that Joshua began to carry out.
Moreover, Goliath is called a gibbor (גִּבּוֹר), a "mighty man," in 1 Samuel 17:51, associating him with the gibborim-Nephilim of Genesis 6:4. (The ESV translates gibbor as "champion" in 1 Samuel 17:51, but this is a different Hebrew word than that for "champion" in 17:4.) David, of course, proved to be his own gibbor in defeating Goliath (1 Samuel 16:18).
There has been much discussion over Goliath's height. The Hebrew text says he was six cubits and a span tall. A cubit was approximately 18 inches and a span nine inches, making Goliath 9 feet 9 inches tall. Many scholars prefer the reading of the Septuagint and an early Hebrew manuscript from Qumran (Dead Sea Scrolls), both of which say that Goliath was only four cubits and a span, or about 6'9". In general, we should prefer the Hebrew Masoretic Text, unless we have good reason to go with alternate readings. There are problems with the MT textual tradition of 1-2 Samuel, so there may be a good reason to favor the alternate readings.[3]
However, thinking 9'9" is too tall for a giant is not a good reason to reject the Hebrew text. We already saw that Og of Bashan had a bed that was over 13 feet long, which cannot be explained well if he were under seven feet tall. This should at least make us open to the idea of Goliath being closer to 10 feet tall. The four cubit and a span reading (6'9") would make Goliath's height less impressive, nine inches shorter than the five cubit (7'6") Egyptian man killed by Benaiah, one of David's mighty men (gibborim) (1 Chronicles 11:23-24).
There is the possibility that the Septuagint used the longer Egyptian cubit in its description, meaning the Septuagint was essentially in agreement with the Hebrew.[4] The alternative is that there are two variant manuscript traditions, with one of them in error. Most text critical scholars seem to favor the Septuagint and Hebrew DSS reading, but this position is not certain (and still has to explain why the MT has a different number). One principle of text criticism is to prefer the harder reading, and the 9'9" measurement is certainly the harder reading.
It is also important to mention that Goliath wore "scale armor" (שִׁרְי֥וֹן קַשְׂקַשִּׂ֖ים, shiryon qasqasim) (1 Samuel 17:5). This armor weighed over 125 pounds, implying he was massive. Everywhere the term קַשְׂקַשִּׂ֖ים (qasqasim) is used in the OT, it means "scales" (Leviticus 11:9-10, 12; Deuteronomy 14:9-10; Ezekiel 29:4). The ESV only makes one exception, as it translates the word as "coat of mail" here in 1 Samuel 17:5. Though this translation is understandable because chain mail would resemble scales, it obscures an important connection with the serpent (and possibly Dagon).
Scale armor ramps up the significance, as it connects Goliath with the serpent himself. Goliath was the seed of the serpent, and David was of the seed of the woman. Whether Goliath was the biological offspring of the serpent (through the Nephilim) or merely the spiritual offspring, there is a connection with Genesis 3:15. David killed Goliath with a stone to the head, and then he cut off Goliath's head (1 Samuel 17:48-51). David, the seed of the woman, crushed the head of the seed of the serpent. Thus David's defeat of Goliath is ultimately a picture of Christ conquering the devil.
The scale armor may also connect Goliath with the Philistine god Dagon, who was possibly a god of the sea. Goliath had cursed David "by his gods," but in the end it was Goliath who was cursed (1 Samuel 17:43). Like his god Dagon, Goliath fell facedown and his head was cut off (1 Samuel 17:49-51; cf. 5:3-4). Israel's first king, Saul, fought a serpent in his first battle against Nahash (Hebrew "serpent"), king of the Ammonites, and here David faced his own serpent. David passed the test by defeating the giant serpent and cutting off his head. David was better than Saul, the tall man who feared the Philistine giant (1 Samuel 17:11).
David and His Men Finish Off the Giants (2 Samuel 21; 1 Chronicles 20)
In addition to Goliath, David and his men killed four other giants—all from Gath:
. . . And Ishbi-benob, one of the descendants of the giants, whose spear weighed three hundred shekels of bronze, and who was armed with a new sword, thought to kill David. But Abishai the son of Zeruiah came to his aid and attacked the Philistine and killed him . . . Then Sibbecai the Hushathite struck down Saph, who was one of the descendants of the giants. And there was again war with the Philistines at Gob, and Elhanan the son of Jaare-oregim, the Bethlehemite, struck down Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver's beam. And there was again war at Gath, where there was a man of great stature, who had six fingers on each hand, and six toes on each foot, twenty-four in number, and he also was descended from the giants. And when he taunted Israel, Jonathan the son of Shimei, David's brother, struck him down. These four were descended from the giants in Gath, and they fell by the hand of David and by the hand of his servants (2 Samuel 21:15-22).
Comparing the parallel passage of 1 Chronicles 20:4-8, we observe the following about these giants. Abishai killed the giant Ishbi-benob. Sibbecai killed the giant Saph. (1 Chronicles 20:4 says Sippai, which is probably a variant of the same name). Elhanan killed Goliath the Gittite (though 1 Chronicles 20:5 says he struck down "Lahmi the brother of Goliath").[5] And Jonathan (David's nephew) killed the unnamed 24-digit giant.
These four men are described as Rapha (רָפָה), which the ESV translates as "giants" (2 Samuel 21:16, 18, 20, 22; 1 Chronicles 20:6, 8). The description of Rapha is related to the word for Rephaim (רְפָאִ֛ים). This connection is made explicit in the use of the plural Rephaim (רְפָאִ֛ים) in 1 Chronicles 20:4 for Sippai and the use of the singular Rapha (רָפָה) for Saph in 2 Samuel 21:18. (Saph and Sippai are likely variant spellings of the same name.) While 2 Samuel 21:15-22 uses the singular Rapha four times, 1 Chronicles 20:4-8 uses Rapha once and the plural Rephaim twice (1 Chronicles 20:6, 8).
As noted above, Rapha is probably a proper name of a giant from whom Goliath was descended. To make the connections clear, the Anakim were "considered" Rephaim (Deuteronomy 2:11, 21). This makes sense, as Goliath and his relatives are associated with both the Anakim and the Rephaim. They were killed by David and his own "mighty men" (גִּבֹּרִ֖ים, gibborim, contra the "mighty men" of Genesis 6:4) (2 Samuel 23:8).
Conclusion—Giants Today
The story of giants starts with the mysterious Nephilim in Genesis 6:4, who were wiped out by the flood. However, the Nephilim are linked with the later Anakim and Rephaim. Ten of the 12 Israelite spies feared going into the land of Canaan because they saw giant Anakim there, and Numbers 13:33 says they came from the Nephilim. Deuteronomy 2:11 says the Anakim were part of the giant group known as the Rephaim. And while in the wilderness, Moses defeated the giant Og of Bashan, who was one of the remaining Rephaim. After wandering in the wilderness for 40 years, Joshua and Caleb—the two faithful spies—then drove out the giant Anakim from Canaan. They "devoted" the Anakim to destruction, though they left some Anakim in Philistine territory (Joshua 11:21-22). One of those cities was Gath, from where Goliath hailed.
Thus the giant Goliath represented not just the Philistines, but the dreaded Anakim—which even Joshua could not fully defeat. Goliath and his fellow Anakim were also considered Rephaim (2 Samuel 21:15-22; cf. Deuteronomy 2:11). And if the Anakim were descended from the Nephilim (as Numbers 13:33 claims) and the Nephilim were the children of fallen angels and women (Genesis 6:4), then this would make Goliath the biological offspring of the serpent (Genesis 3:15). Goliath's connection to the Nephilim is strengthened by his description as a gibbor, a "mighty" one (1 Samuel 17:51; cf. Genesis 6:4). Furthermore, Goliath wore serpent-like "scale armor" (1 Samuel 17:5). This was a battle between the seed of the woman, David, and the seed of the serpent, the giant gibborim-Nephilim-Anakim-Rephaim warrior named Goliath. By defeating Goliath and his relatives, David completed the conquest that Joshua began.
There is no mention of giants in Scripture after the time of David. As far as we know, the gibbor David (1 Samuel 16:18) and his group of gibborim (2 Samuel 23:8) brought an end to the giants, those gibborim of old (Genesis 6:4). There are no more Nephilim, Anakim, or Rephaim on the earth.
The typical sermon on Goliath today encourages Christians to "slay the giants" in their lives, usually referring to sin and the fears of life. Advocates of redemptive-historical preaching often criticize this example of how preachers cover the Goliath story. However, there may be something to considering our own giants to slay—not primarily our individual enemies, but rather those of the church.
This connection is seen when we understand that the Promised Land typifies the whole world in which we dwell. Now that King Jesus has come, the whole earth belongs to Him (Matthew 28:18; Romans 4:13). And just as there were giants in the land of Canaan that needed to be driven out, the earth today is filled with Christ's enemies. The spiritual giants, including unbelief and false teaching, must be driven from the earth so that all will come to saving faith in Christ. However, this is a spiritual war, not one of flesh and blood (Ephesians 6:12).
Jesus defeated the serpent on the cross, along with all spiritual forces opposed to God and His people (Colossians 2:15). And in the end, He will have victory. The nations will be converted, and the spiritual giants will be defeated. In the power of Christ, we now drive out His enemies through the faithful preaching and teaching of God's Word. It is a hard task we have been given, and just like the Israelites, we must trust the Lord to bring it about.
[1] The Septuagint also translates גִּבֹּרִ֛ים (gibborim) as γίγαντες (gigantes, "giants) in Ezekiel 32:21, 27, a passage that may describe giants and their place in Sheol after death. Nimrod was a גִּבֹּ֖ר (gibbor), which the Septuagint also translates as γίγας ("giant") in Genesis 10:8-9.
[2] Michael Heiser, The Unseen Realm, 107.
[3] See Daniel J. Hays, "Reconsidering the Height of Goliath," JETS 48.4 (2005), 702–715, who discusses the textual issues and argues for the shorter height.
[4] See Clyde E. Billington, "Goliath and the Exodus Giants: How Tall Were They?" JETS 50.3 (2007), 489–508., who criticizes Hays' article from two years prior and instead argues that Goliath was about eight feet tall. Hays then responded to Billington: Daniel J. Hays, "The Height of Goliath: A Response to Clyde Billington," JETS 50.3 (2007), 509–516.
[5] 2 Samuel 21:19 says, "Elhanan the son of Jaare-oregim, the Bethlehemite, struck down Goliath the Gittite." 1 Chronicles 20:5 says, "Elhanan the son of Jair struck down Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite." So which is it? There are three possibilities. The first possibility is that 2 Samuel left out "Lahmi the brother of" from the text. This would make sense because 1 Samuel 17 says that it was David who killed Goliath, not Elhanan. It is also the case that the text of 2 Samuel 21:19 appears to be corrupted, seen in that it describes Elhanan as "the son of Jaare-oregim." The word "oregim" (אֹרְגִ֜ים) is the same word used at the end of the verse for "weaver" and is not in 1 Chronicles 20:5, which only says "son of Jair." The second possibility, suggested by the NET notes, is that 1 Chronicles 20 corrupted the word for "Bethlehemite" (בֵּ֣ית הַלַּחְמִ֗י) and instead created the word "Lahmi" with the direct object marker (אֶת־לַחְמִי֙). The problem with this latter is that it requires too much change. The direct object marker is still in 2 Samuel 21:19, and 1 Chronicles 20:5 also adds the word "brother" (אֲחִי֙). The third option is that there were two giants named Goliath. David killed Goliath in 1 Samuel 17, and Elhanan killed the other Goliath in 2 Samuel 21/1 Chronicles 20. This latter Goliath was also known as Lahmi, making him both "Goliath" and "Lahmi the brother of Goliath." The fourth option, a variation of the latter, is that Goliath was a more general term for "giant."
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Tue Oct 22, 2024 - 11:15:47So, I've been reading Stories from Ancient Canaan, and it contains a story called Rephaim, which is also one of the words in the Bible translated as "giants."
It gives some definition to the word beyond the idea of being large, and I figured I'd share. A few lines from the story
Sun rules the Rephaim,
Sun rules the divine ones:
Your company are the gods,
See, the dead are your company.
in the midst of the Rephaim of the underworld
Set up a stela for his divine ancestor, a votive for his clan in the sanctuary
So aside from being giant, this tells us that the Rephaim...
(a) ...were worshiped as gods by the Amorites
(b) ...that the Amorites considered them to be their ancestors
(c) ...that they were real people long dead but now passed into legend
That all works pretty well with what we know from the Bible, where two of the last Rephaim living were kings of the Amorites.
It also brings up a question - are Rephaim (giants) the same thing as Nephilim (giants)?
I think, along with others which have been quoted on this thread, it is obvious that post flood civilizations built societies upon the ruins of discovered antediluvian remains. Building atop and or integrating with structural remains, and deifying these most obviously superior ancestors. Whose remains are literally part of the under world, buried by the global flood. All the global legends of giants themselves being built upon many accounts of their remains being discovered as well.
: Amo Sun Oct 27, 2024 - 07:22:48I think, along with others which have been quoted on this thread, it is obvious that post flood civilizations built societies upon the ruins of discovered antediluvian remains. Building atop and or integrating with structural remains, and deifying these most obviously superior ancestors. Whose remains are literally part of the under world, buried by the global flood. All the global legends of giants themselves being built upon many accounts of their remains being discovered as well.
Whose and where were remains discovered.
You know I am a firm believe in giants.... but other then the stories about our Smithsonian having covered over giants here and destroying evidence I am still waiting for actual, scientific verified "giant"skeletons , for it seems that so many of the pictures we have seen have been fake.
The closest biblical example... other then the stories that made it into the bible was Og's bed.
But a bed is not proof that he was a giant.... maybe he liked to sleep with a lot of people, or women?
All these examples from the stories above... yet no proof ... so maybe the dinosaurs ate them up? Unlikely as I have generally heard dinosaurs were vegetarians.
They keep turning up dinosaurs... just recently in Hong Kong....
but of people????
: Rella Sun Oct 27, 2024 - 07:57:44Whose and where were remains discovered.
You know I am a firm believe in giants.... but other then the stories about our Smithsonian having covered over giants here and destroying evidence I am still waiting for actual, scientific verified "giant"skeletons , for it seems that so many of the pictures we have seen have been fake.
The closest biblical example... other then the stories that made it into the bible was Og's bed.
But a bed is not proof that he was a giant.... maybe he liked to sleep with a lot of people, or women?
All these examples from the stories above... yet no proof ... so maybe the dinosaurs ate them up? Unlikely as I have generally heard dinosaurs were vegetarians.
They keep turning up dinosaurs... just recently in Hong Kong....
but of people????
Just think what one authentic giant human skeleton, would do to the theory of evolution. They simply will not allow it. There most certainly are many fakes, introduced for the exact purpose of casting doubt upon the large number of historic accounts of people actually finding such remains. Many of which are no doubt authentic. The devil himself does not want this truth to come out, having so very much invested in the theory of evolution.
Nevertheless, if God so chooses, there will be no hiding the evidence stored within our planet of which He is exactly aware. Perhaps He will save these awesome evidences to combine with his final plea to humanity before He returns.
: Amo Sun Oct 27, 2024 - 08:13:16Just think what one authentic giant human skeleton, would do to the theory of evolution.
There would be no effect. They would simply be classified as some other species.
edit: but there would be problems for physics... the skeletal/muscular structure required for something 10 feet tall doesn't work with something basically human-shaped
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Sun Oct 27, 2024 - 13:24:27There would be no effect. They would simply be classified as some other species.
edit: but there would be problems for physics... the skeletal/muscular structure required for something 10 feet tall doesn't work with something basically human-shaped
Then what was all of that gobbley gook that was in what I poste in I think 3 articles.
Especially the biblically related one.
Surely someone could not, or would not have taken the time to gather facts that they tie together as proof of not just 1 giant race which most would think would be the Nephilim... but seemingly all ove and area.
Did no one who fought these people ever take a souvenir of one?
The only proof is Ogs bed... as as I suggested that could have been for many reasons and not due to his height.
I think it was you who suggested that the giants may have been as short a 7' or 7 1/2' which would be quite tall to a 5' 8" man.
My girlfriiend was not quite 4'10" and her husband 6'11" He was a giant compared to her. I am 5' 2 3/4" and I felt very tall next to her.
If there were giants... why not souvenirs. If there were not why the talk in the bible?
And another thing. It seems like these giants were all fairly nasty.
Could it be that they simply disappeared or ceased to be... much as is seeming apparent regarding demons when they are cast out?
Even a finger bone would be helpful.
I just wonder if all those Ohio mounds have been dug up?
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Sun Oct 27, 2024 - 13:24:27There would be no effect. They would simply be classified as some other species.
edit: but there would be problems for physics... the skeletal/muscular structure required for something 10 feet tall doesn't work with something basically human-shaped
Oh, no doubt they would try to classify and explain it away. I don't see why larger, thicker, stronger bones and muscle, wouldn't work. All even now acknowledge that a great many animals and plants were much larger in the past than at present. Of course the pre flood world was likely different from this one in many ways as well.
https://truthwatchers.com/israel-sons-of-god/
Interesting quoted article below about the sons of god, is from link above.
Israel as "sons of God"
Discussing Second Temple Jewish thought and use of Father/son terminology can only cause the question, "where did the idea first come from?" The answer should be obvious—the Hebrew Bible. Other than the general expression of God being the father to the fatherless (Psalm 68:5), the nation of Israel particularly is referred to as Jehovah's son frequently, though this is often unnoticed by readers, and significantly downplayed by Heiser so he can twist his theological conundrum into a convincing thesis.
Heiser's selective hermeneutics causes him to ignore the fact that the majority of references to God's sons in the Old Testament is in context identifying Israel. His tendency is to only mention those few passages that provide proof texts for his divine council in order to argue that the "sons of God" must mean divine beings in Psalm 82, commonly citing Genesis 6:1-4; Job 1:5-6; 2:1; 38:7; Psalm 89:6-7; Daniel 3:25. He would add to this list of verses Deuteronomy 32:8 (LXX); and Psalms 29:1, but we will see these two passages are identifying Israel. For example, Psalm 29:1 which uses the phrase beney 'eliym is clearly parallel with "his people" (Psalm 29:11) in a chiastic structure. Note the italics, capitalization and bolds to bring out the emphasis of this Psalm below:
1 Give unto the Lord, O ye MIGHTY (beney 'eliym),
give unto the Lord glory and strength.
2 Give unto the Lord the glory due unto his name;
worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness.
3 The voice of the Lord is upon the waters:
the God of glory thundereth: the Lord is upon many waters.
4 The voice of the Lord is powerful;
the voice of the Lord is full of majesty.
5 The voice of the Lord breaketh the cedars;
yea, the Lord breaketh the cedars of Lebanon.
6 He maketh them also to skip like a calf;
Lebanon and Sirion like a young unicorn.
7 The voice of the Lord divideth the flames of fire.
8 The voice of the Lord shaketh the wilderness;
the Lord shaketh the wilderness of Kadesh.
9 The voice of the Lord maketh the hinds to calve,
and discovereth the forests:
and in his temple doth every one speak of his glory.
10 The Lord sitteth upon the flood;
yea, the Lord sitteth King for ever.
11 The Lord will give strength unto HIS PEOPLE;
the Lord will bless his people with peace. (Emphasis mine)
The middle section, verses 3-9, repeat the phrase "The voice of the LORD" seven times with the exception of verse 6 which is the pivot point. The parallel our attention is on is seen in verses 1-2 in connection with verse 10-11, where the "mighty" are to "give unto the LORD." In verse one the "mighty" (beney 'eliym) "give unto the LORD... strength"1) which is corresponding to verse 11 where "the LORD will give strength unto his people." The literary structure of this Psalm indisputably identifying the beney 'eliym, translated as "ye mighty," as God's people—Israel.
Israel is first called Jehovah's firstborn son in Exodus 4:22-23, who were called out of Egypt (Hosea 11:1). The Hebrew usually has the word "sons" being often translated as "children" because Deuteronomy 32:19 refers to the Lord's sons and daughters to make the terminology gender inclusive.2) The totality of the nation is made up of God's sons and daughters (Deuteronomy 14:1; 32:5, 6, 19; 1 Chronicles 29:10; Isaiah 43:6; 45:11; Hosea 1:10; Malachi 2:10).
God calls them "my people, children" (Isaiah 63:8) which also appears as a parallel in Isaiah 64:8-9; Jeremiah 4:22; Hosea 1:10 and, as we saw above, the chiasm in Psalm 29.3) Expressions such as "my people, which are called by my name" (2 Chronicles 7:14), is likely indicating the familial relationships "sons/children of God" as "the people" being called by the name of their Father is seen in Isaiah 63:16, 18-19. This is similar to how descendants can be called by the name of the family's patriarch "Abraham's children" (John 8:30), "sons of the house of Rechabites" (Jeremiah 35:5; also see Numbers 26 which is full of examples). God's sons and daughters are called by His name (Isaiah 43:6-7; 44:5; 56:5). Pagan nations can be called the "people of Chemosh" (Numbers 21:29; Jeremiah 48:46), or "daughters of a strange gods" (Malachi 2:11). In the Christian context, Peter also portrays the sonship terminology synonymous with being God's people, "being born again... as new born babes... ye are a chosen generation... now a people of God" (1 Peter 1:23; 2:2, 9, 10).
God is said to bare his sons as a father through the wilderness (Deuteronomy 1:31). He will "take up" those who have been forsaken by their human parents (Psalm 27:10). Israel is called children that God has brought up (Isaiah 1:2) and they are rebellious children (Isaiah 1:4; 30:1, 9), or backsliding children (Jeremiah 3:14, 22; 31:22), "sottish children" (Jeremiah 4:22). Jehovah's children had gone forth from Him (Jeremiah 10:20). He will chastise His nation as a man does his son (Deuteronomy 8:5) because he loves His people (Proverb 3:12).4) In the end He will spare his children (Malachi 3:17) with pity (Psalm 103:13).
The vineyard parable in Isaiah 5:1-7 pronounces coming judgement but uses the affectionate term "well beloved" (Isaiah 5:1) for "the house of Israel" (Isaiah 5:7). God continued to call the rebellious ten northern tribes His firstborn (Jeremiah 31:9), which He called His "dear son" (Jeremiah 31:20). This reveals a universality of the ethnicity of the Jewish people, not just those in Judah who were involved with the proper worship at the Temple in Jerusalem. The "sonship" terminology can be limited to the righteous (Psalm 73:15), or elsewhere be reduced to the priests only (Malachi 1:6).
Individuals can recognize God as their Father, though this is always in context as Israelite kings in the Old Testament (Solomon—2 Samuel 7:14; 1 Chronicles 17:11-14; 22:10; 28:6; Solomon is even said sit on the LORD's throne in 1 Chronicles 29:23; David—Psalm 89:26-27), but these sonship verses are often interpreted as prophecies calling the future Messiah God's son5) (cf. Psalm 2:7, 12; Zechariah 12:10), which would imply Christ's divinity (Proverb 30:4; Isaiah 7:14; 8:8; 9:6). However, more generally the nation is encouraged to call God their "Father" (Jeremiah 3:4, 19), and they do call Him "our Father" (Isaiah 63:16; 64:8).
Israel can be depicted as God's wife who has borne children to Him (Hosea 2:3) or elsewhere Jerusalem as the wife (Ezekiel 16:20-21). Completing the wife and children analogy, they are called backsliding children that God is married to (Jeremiah 3:13; Isaiah 62:5). Israel was formed from the womb (Isaiah 44:2, 24; 46:3-4; 49:5; 66:8-9) making them God's offspring (Isaiah 65:23), with other expressions of the nation being made by God (Isaiah 45:10-11; Psalm 149:2). Jeremiah the prophet was formed by God in the belly (Jeremiah 1:5) as one of the four people Rabbinic tradition recognized God personally formed (the other three were Adam [Genesis 2;7], Jacob [Isaiah 43:1], and Isaiah [Isaiah 49:5]).6)
Isaiah's children were given to him by God (Isaiah 8:18). On a few occasions the analogy is depicting God in feminine terms such as "mother" (Isaiah 66:13), which even Christ portrayed when lamenting over Jerusalem applying feminine terminology of a hen seeking to gather her chicks under her wings (Matthew 23:37). The "mother" terminology is rare and should not be taken in any Gnostic or Kabalistic concept as setting God as an androgynous figure.7) In the New Testament the terminology is generally used for Christians, but the inspired text continues to use terms of endearment for Israelites who have rejected the gospel, as in Roman 11:28 which calls them God's "beloved."
The "father" language in Deuteronomy 32:5, 6, and verses 18, 19, 20 are in the context of the "son" language of Deuteronomy 32:8 (LXX), which is Heiser's paradigm passage. He assumes the "sonship" language infers divinity, and misconstrues the proper interpretation of the main verse in the passage his entire theological perspective is established upon. Whether Deuteronomy 32:8 is taken from the Masoretic text "children of Israel," or the Septuagint "sons of God," the meaning in its context is still pointing to the nation of Israel as God's son. This is why Heiser has to downplay the abundance of Father/son terminology identifying Israel throughout the Old Testament to convince his readers of his false interpretation.
https://avalonlibrary.net/ebooks/Richard%20J.%20Dewhurst%20-%20The%20Ancient%20Giants%20Who%20Ruled%20America.pdf
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ioWq6NbVos
Been a while since I posted anything from WISE UP.
: Amo Sun Oct 27, 2024 - 14:10:16I don't see why larger, thicker, stronger bones and muscle, wouldn't work.
Oh, they do. Just look at a rhino or an elephant. It's just that... if you have differences that large in skeletal and muscular structure, then what you're looking at is no longer
homo sapiens. We aren't built that way.
Basically, you can have "giants" of the ancient world who are 6'6" and human, but if you want them to be 9-10' tall, by necessity you are talking about another species.
: Amo Sun Oct 27, 2024 - 14:10:16All even now acknowledge that a great many animals and plants were much larger in the past than at present.
We still have mega-fauna and mega-flora today... they aren't gone, just less prevalent.
It's a function of Determinate vs Indeterminate Growth (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indeterminate_growth#:~:text=In%20biology%20and%20botany%2C%20indeterminate,predetermined%20structure%20has%20completely%20formed.) in genetics, paired with average lifespan.
Sure these are fake but interesting idea anyway.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QE9ekzlHjww
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eR_Jn9Dfx4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rp-W7c8xWuU
some day we are all going to die and might find out all these giants were actually bigfoot ::lookaround::
: Rella Sat Dec 28, 2024 - 19:29:17Sure these are fake but interesting idea anyway.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QE9ekzlHjww
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eR_Jn9Dfx4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rp-W7c8xWuU
some day we are all going to die and might find out all these giants were actually bigfoot ::lookaround::
Nah. God's word is truth. There were giants.
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Sat Dec 28, 2024 - 16:26:56Oh, they do. Just look at a rhino or an elephant. It's just that... if you have differences that large in skeletal and muscular structure, then what you're looking at is no longer homo sapiens. We aren't built that way.
Basically, you can have "giants" of the ancient world who are 6'6" and human, but if you want them to be 9-10' tall, by necessity you are talking about another species.
We still have mega-fauna and mega-flora today... they aren't gone, just less prevalent.
It's a function of Determinate vs Indeterminate Growth (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indeterminate_growth#:~:text=In%20biology%20and%20botany%2C%20indeterminate,predetermined%20structure%20has%20completely%20formed.) in genetics, paired with average lifespan.
All of course under the most prevalent assumption of most "scientists" today, that the past is bound by what we observe today. As though we can judge the unobservable past with complete accuracy according to what we observe today. Scripture though, presents a very different picture. Of a world that has experienced major changes since its creation, changed by the Creator Himself, and which continues to deteriorate toward its end. The scriptures themselves predicting this erroneous presumption.
2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 3 Knowing this first,
that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Basically, you can have "giants" of the ancient world who are 6'6" and human, but if you want them to be 9-10' tall, by necessity you are talking about another species.
This is not what we observe even today, concerning the fossilized remains of ancient animal species. We find them to have been much larger, but basically still identifiable as the same species.
https://www.genesispark.com/exhibits/early-earth/larger-organisms/
Quoted article below from link above.
Larger Organisms in the Past
Often larger organisms are healthier and longer-lived than smaller specimens of the same kind. Certainly environmental factors (particularly nutrition) and genetic variations play an important role in determining a creature's size and its lifespan. However, there are many creationists who believe that the larger ancestors of modern organisms (as seen in the fossil record) provide important evidence of decline in biological systems. Many years ago Henry Morris wrote, "[M]ost modern creatures are represented in the fossil record by larger and more highly developed individuals than their modern counterparts" (Morris, H, "The Power of Energy," CRSQ, 1964, pp. 18-23.) The early earth would have provided the optimal environment for healthy organisms (with specialized original biomes created directly by God). Perhaps part of the explanation for gigantism was the atmospheric conditions of the pre-Flood world. But we know that some giant species persisted even in the centuries after the Flood (ice age megafauna, for example). Undoubtedly, biological kinds continued to decline as they do today. With some possible exceptions (like the blue whale and African Elephant) the fossilized remains of the various animal kinds are significantly larger than their modern-day counterparts demonstrating a general trend of devolution over time.
While modern medicine and improved nutrition have actually reversed the downward trend in human lifespans, human genetic mutations continue to accumulate and new diseases pose fresh challenges. Those ancient plants and animals would not have suffered from the genetic deterioration that has accumulated since that time. In Romans 8:21-22 the Bible discusses the bondage to corrupting forces that was introduced with the fall of man and the curse of Genesis 3. But the scripture also tells of a time when men lived to be many hundreds of years old, giants were common on the earth, and the human genome was able to withstand extensive in-breeding (multiple genetic bottlenecks). Various animals can grow to indeterminate size, so they will become giants if they live long enough. How long would a dinosaur live in the pre-Flood world? Even today some reptiles live longer than humans. For example the tortoise Harriette that Charles Darwin brought back from the Galapagos Islands lived till 2006, dying at the ripe age of 175. If the dinosaurs lived significantly longer than humans on the early earth, some of the created organisms may have lasted right up till the Flood! Their longevity and reproductive capacity (as compared to mammals) could explain why the primeval world quickly became an "Age of Reptiles."
But the dinosaurs were certainly not the only predatory reptiles that grew to fantastic size on the early earth. Crocodilians like Deinosuchus and Sarcosuchus grew to as long as 40-50 feet. Notice on right the Sarcosuchus skull compared to a modern crocodile skull. Fossils found in what is now the Giant Penguin & Skierdesert of Niger tell of a hyper-crocodile that would have feasted on dinosaurs in what was then a verdant river valley. The fossil crocs not only were much larger, but they would have weighed ten times as much as today's largest crocodilians. Oftentimes we can identify fossilized plants and animals as closely allied to still living species. For example, fossil ferns have been discovered that are in the same family as modern ones, but the fossil ferns are the size of trees! On the early earth, horsetails once shot up over thirty feet tall. In 2018, a fossilized penguin was discovered in New Zealand. Taller than the modern Emperor Penguin, the penguins, named Crossvallia waiparensis, stood over 5 feet and weighed about 180 pounds. By comparison, the largest modern penguin species stands between 3 and 4 feet tall.
There were huge cockroaches, ants, crickets, grasshoppers and even monstrous spiders that thrived in a land of endless summer. Dragonflies with nearly three foot wingspan skimmed over swamps in which eight-foot beavers, monster frogs, and sixty-foot cattails flourished. Beetles once grew to be the size of a baseball mitt and climbed up conifers that towered a hundred feet high. Australia's iconic koala weighs as much as 31 pounds. Compare Cartoon man & Giant wormthis to the ancient forest canopies where a 150 pound marsupial, called Nimbadon, ruled. The fossil lungfish is twice the size of modern lungfish. Megapiranha, a fossil piranha discovered in Argentina was about 3 feet long–a beast four times as big as piranhas living today. Modern mayflies may sport a 10 inch wingspan at the most, but a primeval mayfly Bojophlebia prokopi had an 18 inch wingspan. A giant sand worm was discovered in Devon, England. These giant worms would have grown up to 3 feet long and 6 inches wide. Their large burrowing holes indicate that the creatures would have traveled beneath the surface, not unlike the modern earthworms used for fishing.
In his delightful book on fossil giants, Monumental Monsters, Vance Nelson demonstrates how creatures from all over the world have decline in size and diversity vs their ancient relatives. For example, the fossil raccoon Chapalmalania altaefrontis, (right) would have dwarfed living raccoons. With its short tail and 5-foot body, it would have looked a bit like a giant panda bear. Pelorovis is an extinct genus of African cattle that resembled the Cape Buffalo, but sported a 10 ft horn spread! To the upper left is pictured the skull of the giant hyena-like animal Dinocrocuta. This fossil monster would have weighed in at about 850 pounds, nearly 4 times the size of the largest modern hyenas. An unlikely fossil was discovered in 2009 in a Colombian coal mine...the largest snake on record. The monster, called Titanoboa, was about 45 feet long and would have weighed over a ton! By comparison, the Guinness record for a snake found alive is just over 25 feet. The Australian fossil Varanus prisca (aka Megalania prisca) demonstrates dramatic decrease in size of these monitor lizards (left). While the extant Komodo Dragon might reach 10 ft in length, its ancestral relative would have been about 26 ft long. Wombat and seacow fossils similarly testify to giants in the past.
Gigantism seems to be a major feature of the fossil record. Fossil hunters in Uruguay uncovered the remains of a one ton rat creature (quite like the living South American Pacarana). The rodent would have been roughly the size of a small automobile and its head alone would have been larger than a cow! Another oversized rodent, the giant guinea pig, grew as big as a modern rhinoceros; while the ancient rhino grew to be the biggest mammal to ever walk on land. The large male white rhino might grow up to 4 tons, but a Paraceratherium, an extinct hornless rhino, found in China, grew up to 24 tons! Tracks of an eight-foot-long monster millipede were discovered in New Mexico in 2005. Spencer Lucas, paleontology Paracatherium vs Modern Rhinocurator at the New Mexico Museum of Natural History, commented, "They just couldn't survive at that size in modern air... For an insect to get that big, you'd need to have a lot more oxygen in the air." (Quoted in Vorenberg, Sue, "This Bug's a Big One," Tribune Reporter, April 14, 2005.) Then in 2021 a colossal 9 ft millipede fossil was discovered in a cliff in northern England! The car-sized arthropod would have weighed about 110 pounds. Fossils of a 10 pound toad, a bear-sized dog, and an 8 ft platypus all tell the story of larger organisms in the past. In 2006 bones of an enormous camel, double the size of the modern-day camel, were found in El Kowm, Syria.
The ancient Steppe Mammoth weighed as much as 31,000 pounds in comparison to the largest elephant on record, a 24,000 pound bull that was killed in Angola. Modern coyotes are smaller than their Ice Age ancestors. Dunkleosteus & scuba manThe remains of a giant iguana were found in sediments on the Fijian island of Viti Levu. It is more than twice the size of the living iguana. The remains of giant baboons were discovered on the plains of Kenya. Weighing about 140 pounds, they would be twice the size of modern baboons. In ancient times the ferocious-looking, giant armored fish, Dinicthys terrelli, grew to approximately 30 feet long, with its head and neck covered in solid armor-like bone and sporting four scissor-like teeth at the front of its jaw. The fossilized remains of an ancient sea scorpion found in NY measures 6 ft in length. It seems like monstrous creatures existed in every ecosystem on the early earth!
According to Guinness, the biggest hedgehog around today are the European hedgehog; and the largest on record is a porker that weighed just under 10 pounds. But the fossilized hedgehog Deinogalerix, which was discovered in Italy, was a huge hog that would have been 5 times the size of the European hedgehog. To the right is a comparison between a bald eagle and the giant Teratorn bird (Argentavis magnificens) with a wingspan of 25 ft (Giant Moacomparison after Campbell, Kenneth E., "The World's Largest Flying Bird," Terra, Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County, 19:2, 1980.) The living bird with the largest wingspan is the wandering albatross, which has about 12 ft between wing tips. But the Pelagornis sandersi, an ancient albatross whose remains were found in South Carolina, had a 24 ft wingspan. The extinct giant Moa from New Zealand stood an incredible 12ft tall (left) and weighed 400 pounds. The South American Seriemas are long-legged birds that forage on foot and prefer to run from danger rather than fly. They grow to about 35 inches in height. But the closely-related bird Brontis (whose fossils are found in South America) was a 900 pound "terror bird" who would have stood over 9 feet tall! Below are two of the fossils displayed at Mt. Blanco Fossil Museum: the skull of a giant salamander and horns of an ancient bison, measuring 8 foot tip-to-tip. Also below is a huge turtle skeleton exhibited at Yale's Peabody Museum. It is 11 feet long, 15 feet wide and would have weighed about 3 tons. Scientists in Spain found fossils of a mega-shrew that was capable of shooting venom out of blood-colored teeth. The researchers describe this extinct shrew, Dolinasorex glyphodon, as "giant" because it had a body mass of about 2 ounces, four times heavier than a modern water shrew. Massive deer, lemurs, kangaroo, and donkeys have all been found in the fossil record. Even an inch-long, Jurassic fossilized flea has been discovered that in China.
The Entelodont (left) is an extinct creature that has been called the "Terminator Pig" because of its size and ferocious appearance. Looking something like a massively overgrown warthog, the Terminator Pig would have weighed up to 2,000 pounds. But unlike today's farm pigs that grow fat and lazy, the Entelodont would have been an omnivorous apex predator in the North American plains. There is some disagreement about exactly how to classify this beast.
The picture to the right is of artist William Munns and his re-creation of the giant ape Gigantopithecus. Based on teeth and jaw fragments found in China, the great ape is thought to be 10-12 feet tall. Some people believe something like this creature still Modern Armadillo vs Glyptodontexist in the form of Big Foot. The giant South American armadillo grows to about 70 pounds. Compare this to the Glyptodont, the ancient South American armadillo that was as big as an automobile and weighed up to two tons! Then there is the example of the saber-toothed mesonyx. It was a wolf, somewhat larger than a Great Dane, and at least twice as large as a modern timber wolf. In 2017 an ancient wolf-sized otter species was unearthed in China. Siamogale melilutra is more than twice the size of the modern giant South American river otter.
Discovered in 2011 on the Spanish island of Minorca were king-sized rabbit remains. Meike Kohler Giant Bunny pictureThe giant bunny weighed in at 26 pounds, about six times bigger than the common European rabbit (see the comparison to the left). The smilodon, a large saber-toothed tiger, was bigger and more ferocious than than any modern tiger. Remains of a giant short-faced bear skull was found in South Dakota. It was one third bigger than today's largest grizzly bears, standing at about 11ft. Today it is rare to find a sloth that weighs 20 pounds, but the remains of the giant ground sloth Megatherium have been found in South American caves. It grew up to 4 tons and stood at 18 feet tall. So it didn't need to climb trees to get plenty of leaves to eat. It seems that such gigantism was common among mammals even up through the Equus giganteus2Ice Age. The conventional picture of horse evolution from a small deer-like ancestor to today's large horses needs to be reevaluated. The largest horse in recorded history, a Shire gelding named Mammoth, was born in 1848 and eventually weighed 3,300 lbs. But the fossil horse Equus Giganteus, a huge zebra-like animal, would have weighed well over 3,500 pounds, much more than any modern zebra!
Fossil marine predators that resemble shrimp have been found in Morocco. But these ancient anomalocaridids were over 3 ft long. Perhaps the most terrifying of all the ancient monsters, the fossil shark megalodon grew to be thirty times as big as the largest reported modern great white shark. The fossil record is replete with examples of immense creatures that flourished in the past. That is not to say there aren't also smaller varieties of these animals among the rock layers. Some preserved remains of beavers, rodents, elephants, and birds of prey would be close in size to their modern populations. There are even quite a number of smaller dinosaurs. Animal kinds throughout history seem to have enjoyed the capacity for a wide variation in sizes (like modern dogs). The point is that, when we can identify comparable kinds, there were considerably larger varieties, as a rule, in the distant past than we have alive anywhere today. And as far as we can tell, these are not outliers, freak cases of giantism. The norm of the population was simply larger in the past. With our current understanding of information theory, this large-scale trend of genetic entropy over the ages should not come as a surprise to us.
In 2015 the discovery of a fossilized wasp was announced. The wasp found near Cache Creek, British Columbia, Canada. The journal article reported that it resembles modern horntail wasps and is in remarkable condition. But in terms of size, it is gigantic, measuring almost 3 inches long! Further evidence of biological decline comes from a California company, Ambergene, which has patented a process of sterilizing amber samples, grinding them up, and then growing the ancient microbes found in it. The company's research leads them to believe that these ancient microbes will yield more potent and powerful agricultural applications than modern-day descendants. They even isolated a yeast entombed in an ancient bee, grew it and found it very "active" as they brewed amber beer! The evidence suggests that biological deterioration and environmental degradation contributed to devolution (a decline in fitness, body mass, overall health, and longevity) through the ages.
: Amo Sun Dec 29, 2024 - 09:52:02This is not what we observe even today, concerning the fossilized remains of ancient animal species. We find them to have been much larger, but basically still identifiable as the same species.
Only for species with indeterminate growth. Every creature that has ever existed has genetics. That hasn't changed.
For some plants and animals, those genetics define a maximum size. That's called determinate growth. They will only ever grow to the maximum size their genes allow.
For others, those genetics DON'T define a maximum size. They will continue growing for as long as they live. The Nile Crocodile, for example, grows indeterminately. When they live long, they can get to 20' long and upwards of a ton.
Mankind grows determinately. Living longer will not result in us growing larger. Our size is dictated strictly by our genes.
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Sun Dec 29, 2024 - 13:46:09Only for species with indeterminate growth. Every creature that has ever existed has genetics. That hasn't changed.
For some plants and animals, those genetics define a maximum size. That's called determinate growth. They will only ever grow to the maximum size their genes allow.
For others, those genetics DON'T define a maximum size. They will continue growing for as long as they live. The Nile Crocodile, for example, grows indeterminately. When they live long, they can get to 20' long and upwards of a ton.
Mankind grows determinately. Living longer will not result in us growing larger. Our size is dictated strictly by our genes.
Another thought.
Was it only Moses who ever mentioned Giants in the OT?
I have been watching some movies this holiday on Great American Family and Hallmark.
I have noticed that there is an over abundance of really tall men and very short girls when the tops of the girls heads hit at the guys shoulders or below.
If Moses saw this, or those he wrote about could they think maybe the guys were giants.
You had mentioned if there were there would not be normal "humans" but variants... or however you said it.
That is why I posted those 3 links about the double teeth and 6 fingers and toes.
Certainly would be a variant from us. Possibly another species.
I just read, but cant find this AM about an addition to the Dennisovians and Neanderthals....
I did run across this..
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/dna-reveals-new-branch-european-ancestry-180957312/
DNA from a Huge Tooth Confirms a New Ancient Cousin
The Denisovans may have co-existed and interbred with Neanderthals and Homo sapiens
I digress and off topic so... toodles.
: Rella Mon Dec 30, 2024 - 07:26:21Another thought.
Was it only Moses who ever mentioned Giants in the OT?
No, they're in Joshua, Samuel, and the books of history. 1 mention in Job.
Also, they're in the stories of the Canaanites and Amorites from the same time period.
: Rella Mon Dec 30, 2024 - 07:26:21You had mentioned if there were there would not be normal "humans" but variants... or however you said it.
That is why I posted those 3 links about the double teeth and 6 fingers and toes.
Certainly would be a variant from us. Possibly another species.
If they were another species, then they couldn't interbreed with people. I believe that's actually the definition of a species.
The point is that the genetic adaptations for that size (much heavier bones, extra ligaments, some sort of shock-absorbing tissue in the feet) aren't compatible with people. If such things interbred with humanity, we should find groups of people nowadays with some really weird feet.
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Mon Dec 30, 2024 - 20:46:50No, they're in Joshua, Samuel, and the books of history. 1 mention in Job.
Also, they're in the stories of the Canaanites and Amorites from the same time period.
If they were another species, then they couldn't interbreed with people. I believe that's actually the definition of a species.
The point is that the genetic adaptations for that size (much heavier bones, extra ligaments, some sort of shock-absorbing tissue in the feet) aren't compatible with people. If such things interbred with humanity, we should find groups of people nowadays with some really weird feet.
This observation is of course once again built upon the highlighted presumption of fallen humanity in the following scriptures.
2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying,
Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:Apart from the above, are you suggesting that all the giant rabbits, rodents, bears, cats, dogs, sloths, insects, and numerous others I have posted articles about on these boards do not have this suggested restriction, but we do? You know this to be true concerning all of them?
: Amo Tue Dec 31, 2024 - 05:05:58Apart from the above, are you suggesting that all the giant rabbits, rodents, bears, cats, dogs, sloths, insects, and numerous others I have posted articles about on these boards do not have this suggested restriction, but we do? You know this to be true concerning all of them?
No, all the animals are still subject to the laws of physics just the same.
It's just your articles that are rubbish.
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Tue Dec 31, 2024 - 12:30:51No, all the animals are still subject to the laws of physics just the same.
It's just your articles that are rubbish.
Why were giants... as in people... even mentioned in the bible if there is no tangible proof they ever existed?
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Tue Dec 31, 2024 - 12:30:51No, all the animals are still subject to the laws of physics just the same.
It's just your articles that are rubbish.
You may consider the suggested theory rubbish, but the evidence of far larger plant and animal life is abundantly observed. Therefore, either physics, or the world was very different in the past. Which do you suppose it was? Or do you have another explanation altogether? If conditions were conducive to having much larger plants and animals, as they most obviously were, why would this not apply to humanity as well? What is your reasoning for allowing such regarding plants and animals, but not humanity as well?
: Rella Tue Dec 31, 2024 - 14:46:48Why were giants... as in people... even mentioned in the bible if there is no tangible proof they ever existed?
There's evidence of some taller-than-average tribes of people existing in the Bronze Age. There's no evidence of a group of 10' tall giants with superhuman powers, though.
As for why they were mentioned, Moses tells us that God sent the Israelites specifically to wipe out the last remnants of the giants.
https://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php?topic=113701.0
https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/22/us/smithsonian-apologizes-racial-brain-collection-cec/index.html
The Smithsonian is apologizing for how it amassed its vast collection of human remains
Interesting article concerning the abusive practices and power of the Smithsonian Institute. If it was willing to do that described in the article in order to bolster false conceptions of the evolutionary theory, why do so many act so offended or surprised at the suggestion that it has buried or withheld evidence of giants of the past, to protect this theory as well? They certainly demonstrated this spirit in the past, as the article reveals.
: Amo Fri Jan 03, 2025 - 08:06:50https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/22/us/smithsonian-apologizes-racial-brain-collection-cec/index.html
The Smithsonian is apologizing for how it amassed its vast collection of human remains
Interesting article concerning the abusive practices and power of the Smithsonian Institute. If it was willing to do that described in the article in order to bolster false conceptions of the evolutionary theory, why do so many act so offended or surprised at the suggestion that it has buried or withheld evidence of giants of the past, to protect this theory as well? They certainly demonstrated this spirit in the past, as the article reveals.
Good find. ::thumbup::
Quoted chapter below from GIANTS ON RECORD,
America's Hidden History, Secrets in the Mounds and the Smithsonian Files
First published 2015 AD
This edition © Jim Vieira & Hugh Newman 2015 AD Published by Avalon Rising Publications. British Library Cataloguing in Publication Data Vieira, J and Newman, H.
Giants on Record
8. The Smithsonian Files
The Smithsonian Institution is continually linked to giant skeletons, or at least the lack of them. Dozens of reports end in something like this: "The bones were shipped to the Smithsonian Institution for further study".
In this chapter we look at giants skeletons that were sold to the institution, some that were simply given, and even Smithsonian reports of directly discovering them. Our favorite report is of the gentleman who refused to sell them a skeleton! The story of the Smithsonian is remarkable tale that has become what some researchers describe as a "conspiracy".
The Institution was originally founded thanks to just over half a million dollars (equating to over $13 million today), donated by English scientist James Smithson (1765-1829). Due to his unusual will, his fortune ended up being given to the people of the United States in 1836 to found an institution "at Washington, under the name of the Smithsonian Institution, an establishment for the increase and diffusion of knowledge."
The amount he gave to the U.S. was around 1/66 of the United States' entire federal budget at the time.2 President Jackson sent a diplomat to collect the money that consisted of 104,960 gold coins, but Congress decided to invest the money in treasury bonds issued by the state of Arkansas. The bonds became worthless after they defaulted. However, after much debate, ex-President John Quincy Adams persuaded Congress to restore the lost funds with interest. Smithson's reasons for providing for a research and educational institution in a new country on another continent remains a mystery, as he never set foot in America. His bequest sparked widespread debate over what such a national institution might be. However, once established, "the Smithsonian Institution became part of the process of developing the U.S. national identity."3 This is certainly the case, as early pioneers in the newly founded Bureau of Ethnology drove an agenda of manifest destiny and the new theory of evolution. They also exerted control over the prehistoric mounds, and all artifacts and skeletons discovered within them.
In 1864 the Smithsonian was established as a governmental trust to be run by a board and secretary. Curiously, it is neither governmental or private, sitting in a gray area.
The first major Smithsonian publication was created by Ephraim Squire and Edwin Davis. They were commissioned to describe, survey and illustrate the mound culture sites that were being quickly demolished by the incoming Europeans. Their incredibly popular book, published in 1848, did not mention giants, but it concluded that a prehistoric race, superior to the Native Americans was responsible for building the mounds. This became a contentious issue within the hierarchy of the Smithsonian over the decades, and was refuted by future Director John Wesley Powell, who was sympathetic towards the Native Americans due to his interactions with them over the years. Although the lost race theory was a popular one, it didn't succeed in becoming part of the new paradigm that the Smithsonian was building. To this day, it is official doctrine that the mounds were built by the ancestors of the Native Americans, and not a legendary lost race.
The publication caused quite a stir, as evolutionary theories and Manifest Destiny were being advanced by Lewis Henry Morgan, John Wesley Powell, and Otis T. Mason. These combined agendas would become the public norm, and influence how modern Native Americans were being treated for decades to come.
"With land rights being one of the foremost issues facing lawmakers, having evolutionary theories that labeled the American Indian populations as savage would be seen as a pivotal breakthrough in addressing and advancing a Manifest Destiny agenda, along with a host of other scientific, government, and social ethnological issues."
In 1879 John Wesley Powell (pictured with Pauite Indian) founded the Bureau of Ethnology in a new format. It was set up to be a storehouse of records and artifacts relating to Native Americans, and to transfer archives, records and materials relating to the North America Indians from the Interior Department to the Smithsonian Institution. An annual budget of $25,000 was granted, with $5,000 given to the newly formed Division of Mound Exploration, much to Powell's discontent. As a firm believer in the Native origins of the mounds, he wanted to keep any research ethnological, not intrusive, but agreed to comply with the bill.
John Wesley Powell, who lost his arm in the Civil War, was a famous geologist and explorer (of Grand Canyon exploration fame 1869-1872). His interest in history and archaeology stimulated his vision to create the nation's ultimate storehouse and research agency. The first annual report was published by the Smithsonian in 1882, under the guidance of Powell. That same year he appointed Cyrus Thomas as the Director of the Division of Mound Exploration.
Thomas was also quietly a believer in the legendary lost race theory, as by then hundreds of reports of giant skeletons, strange artifacts that appeared to have come from other countries, and sophisticated astronomy, geometry, and mathematics were being revealed from the earthworks, regardless of any Smithsonian involvement. The question of who the original inhabitants of North America were did not leave the spotlight for too long.
Thomas' organisational skills were put to use in coordinating the field workers who would go across the country collecting data, artifacts, and most importantly to our investigation, skulls and skeletons for research and display at the Smithsonian. Many of these discoveries were documented in the Annual Reports that we explore later in this chapter.
"These [Smithsonian] men were in every valley, on every hill, north and south. They let nothing escape."
He outlined his intentions clearly. The primary goal being:
"1. To make a collection of skeletons, especially crania found entombed in the mounds or graves."
Cyrus Thomas soon came round to Powell's views of Native American origins, but this may have also been the trigger for "the Smithsonian to quash all evidence that showed that the mound builders were related to any other culture on any continent."6 They also ignored any suggestion of 'diffusionism', the school of thought that believes throughout history there has been worldwide contact via the oceans and trade routes. Isolationism became the norm, where it is believed to have been isolated from any influence of overseas navigators, or even neighboring tribes.
In 1910 the Smithsonian hired the most infamous figure in its short history to be the curator of the Division of Physical Anthropology. Aleš Hrdlička was involved in the Eugenics movement, a pre-Nazism philosophy funded by the Rockerfeller Foundation.7 His influence overpowered many contemporaries who were afraid to challenge the paradigm he was enforcing. We discuss Hrdlička further in the chapter, but his draconian zeal, combined with his racist denial of culturally advanced Native Americans did not help the image of the Smithsonian in the following decades.
Author David Hatcher Childress first raised the alarm that something was not right within the Smithsonian in 1993 with his controversial article entitled "Smithsoniangate." It outlined many non-giant related artifacts discoveries at ancient sites, that were never heard of again. These included the lost Egyptian artifacts that were said to have been discovered in the Grand Canyon in April 1909 with numerous other discoveries. Online skeptics have ridiculed this article as the genesis of the Smithsonian conspiracy theory, but as we delved into these upcoming accounts, we quickly found it may prove to be relevant to giantology. A probable urban legend, first written and published by Childress in his article, stated something quite strange and disconcerting, but could it really be true?
"In a private conversation with a well-known historical researcher (who shall remain nameless), I was told that a former employee of the Smithsonian, who was dismissed for defending the view of diffusionism in the Americas (i.e. the heresy that other ancient civilisations may have visited the shores of North and South America during the many millennia before Columbus), alleged that the Smithsonian at one time had actually taken a barge full of unusual artifacts out into the Atlantic and dumped them in the ocean."
Before we started this investigation, the Smithsonian was simply just another historical institution that everyone loved, looked up to, and had some nice museums. However, as we uncovered more and more accounts, it quickly became clear that the Smithsonian collected and received thousands of artifacts, treasures, sizeable skeletons, and amassed an impressive knowledge of America's earlier inhabitants. If there is no 'conspiracy', then where are all these relics now, and why do they deny they received them? Does the scene of the crated-up artifacts in Raiders of the Lost Ark hold any truth? Ross Hamilton tackles this ongoing issue:
"Combing through the Museum's old Annual Reports has been an education, raising a number of questions regarding the modern Smithsonian's repeated denials of specific, albeit lacking-in-detail nineteenth century finds. Interestingly, there were few or no such denials until the tenure of Aleš Hrdlička, early twentieth century head of anthropology at the Museum. Thus an important—perhaps pivotal question is raised: Why would this gentleman discount the existence of relics carefully recorded in the field reports of his predecessors John Wesley Powell and Cyrus Thomas? Was Hrdlička simply an apologist ignorant of his own reliquary's contents, a rank materialist who had not taken time to search the collections, or was there something darker creeping insidiously into American anthropology at the highest levels in the early twentieth century?"
Hugh visited the Smithsonian Institution in Washington D.C. in late 2014 to take a look for himself. It is a sparse place, with very few artifacts or anything 'ancient' on display. It has a cold, unwelcoming atmosphere, and the workers there knew nothing of giant skeletons in their records, even though Hugh showed them several examples. Hugh simply saw an empty shell of what could have been one of the most important repositories of knowledge in the world.
It's not all bad though. Their recent court case against the federal government over Kennewick Man shows a shift within the ranks, and a new respect for the ancestors of this ancient land.
The authors are fascinated by these following accounts because they appear to reveal an unfolding agenda and deliberate suppression of what was really being discovered in ancient America, as well as a severe lack of respect for Native American burials. Other commentators deny there is any cover-up, so please take a look at the following accounts—firstly from newspapers—then from their own journals, to determine what really happened at the Smithsonian.
I will follow up this posts, by more posts of the accounts and articles referred to above.
: Amo Fri Jan 03, 2025 - 08:06:50https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/22/us/smithsonian-apologizes-racial-brain-collection-cec/index.html
The Smithsonian is apologizing for how it amassed its vast collection of human remains
Interesting article concerning the abusive practices and power of the Smithsonian Institute. If it was willing to do that described in the article in order to bolster false conceptions of the evolutionary theory, why do so many act so offended or surprised at the suggestion that it has buried or withheld evidence of giants of the past, to protect this theory as well? They certainly demonstrated this spirit in the past, as the article reveals.
Interesting. The scientific community is as much dogma driven as the catholic and orthodox churches.
In the very office where my wife and I work, (NOAAs Office of Coast Survey) in the 1950s a young cartographer decided to take the sounding measurements in the mid Atlantic and make a 3D model of them. She discovered a mountain range roughly following a mid line between North America and Europe. She got fired because it hinted at tectonic plate movement.
And we all have heard when the first Brits to explore Australia brought back some duck bill platypus specimens. They were laughed out of England's scientific community and some in there ripped the bill off of one to prove they had faked them.
Science has never been as scientific as they claim it to be.
: DaveW Fri Jan 03, 2025 - 09:35:31Interesting. The scientific community is as much dogma driven as the catholic and orthodox churches.
In the very office where my wife and I work, (NOAAs Office of Coast Survey) in the 1950s a young cartographer decided to take the sounding measurements in the mid Atlantic and make a 3D model of them. She discovered a mountain range roughly following a mid line between North America and Europe. She got fired because it hinted at tectonic plate movement.
And we all have heard when the first Brits to explore Australia brought back some duck bill platypus specimens. They were laughed out of England's scientific community and some in there ripped the bill off of one to prove they had faked them.
Science has never been as scientific as they claim it to be.
Agreed!
Article: Excavation near Jerusalem finds 9,000-year-old six-fingered Neolithic shaman woman
https://www.jpost.com/archaeology/archaeology-around-the-world/article-840914
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Thu Feb 06, 2025 - 09:24:16Article: Excavation near Jerusalem finds 9,000-year-old six-fingered Neolithic shaman woman
https://www.jpost.com/archaeology/archaeology-around-the-world/article-840914
You got me all excited and then no mention of a giant at all. ::frown::
Just 6 fingers on one hand, where others claim 6 fingers and 6 toes and double teeth rows. (I personally think these would be a different species)
funny though... I turned to this just as I finished reading a pitch for
WHAT HAPPENED TO THE NEPHILIM?
From Genesis Apologetics.
(https://ecp.yusercontent.com/mail?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmcusercontent.com%2F10e7ae263856c95f48a116f71%2Fimages%2F6a1eab88-ee7a-4c31-4b23-8ee18cdc4cf8.png&t=1738871024&ymreqid=55a0b8aa-0f75-8510-1ce6-03000401c300&sig=yUzpqIlmwnXn36WO4ppZFA--~D)
https://anomalien.com/the-giants-found-in-romania-and-the-huge-cover-up/#google_vignette
Quoted article below from link above.
The Giants Found In Romania And The Huge Cover-Up
In the 1940's, archaeologists were overseeing a dig at Argedava in Romania, searching for priceless artifacts within the ruins of what was once the greatest citadel of the Dacian leader Burebista. The locals did most of the digging and they were glad to be making a little extra during those times of hardship.
Among them was Ionita Florea, now an old man well in his eighties. He was the one who dug up an enormous skull, two or three times the size of a regular one. When he notified the archaeologists, the workers were quickly dismissed and the researchers resumed the digging themselves.
Their findings were loaded onto trucks and shipped away with the utmost secrecy. By the end of the excavation, they had collected around 80 skeletons, most of them complete. They had also recovered giant ceramic pots filled with grains.
To this day, nobody knows where the skeletons are.
This is not an isolated incident. In more recent years, villagers in Scaieni uncovered an ancient giants' graveyard while planting an apple orchard. Once again, it was the skulls' giant sizes that puzzled everyone.
Alongside the complete skeletons, the villagers also found pottery fragments, jewelry and strange metal statues about 3 feet tall. A team of archaeologists came, dug everything up and vanished. No public statement was made and the locals refuse to discuss what happened after they announced their finding.
There are plenty of legends about giants in the area. According to folklore, giants once inhabited the mountains and forests around Scaieni. In fact, huge thrones were found sculpted in the mountainside, in an area inaccessible to regular human beings.
Legends tell that there are two gigantic underground vaults beneath the mountains, holding the giants' ancient treasures. Could these vaults be real? If found, what stories would they tell?
In 2009, a local news channel started an investigation about the giants and their secret tunnels beneath the Bucegi mountains. Just as their report went on air, they received a live phone call from a man who refused to identify himself.
The journalists were threatened to stop their ongoing investigation or else. As the mysterious man put it, they were "playing a dangerous game."
"Stop talking about the Bucegi [mountains]. Information like that must not be made public and there are certain structures that deal with cases such as this.
You do not wish to know us, you don't want to interview us. That's all I want to say." He then hung up and the broadcast was interrupted. Was this an orchestrated hoax or a live case of a threatening secret cover-up? Only the journalists know and they refuse to discuss the subject.
In an intriguing twist, the airspace above the Bucegi Plateau is a restricted no-fly zone. Many sources point to the CIA being involved.
Incidents like these happen all around the world. There is a distinct lack of physical evidence whenever people report findings of giant skeletons. Authorities arrive first, leaving behind hastily covered excavations, no artifacts and muted locals. One might think something really strange is going on.
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/salim-y-tannous-b5a073213_a-limited-number-of-areas-are-undisputed-activity-7281665001717698560-Nhsr?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_ios&rcm=ACoAADdUzDcByCxZ9dhxoBKGRKCmJmSShbd8Vt0 (https://www.linkedin.com/posts/salim-y-tannous-b5a073213_a-limited-number-of-areas-are-undisputed-activity-7281665001717698560-Nhsr?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_ios&rcm=ACoAADdUzDcByCxZ9dhxoBKGRKCmJmSShbd8Vt0)
: Jaime Sat Feb 15, 2025 - 08:23:09https://www.linkedin.com/posts/salim-y-tannous-b5a073213_a-limited-number-of-areas-are-undisputed-activity-7281665001717698560-Nhsr?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_ios&rcm=ACoAADdUzDcByCxZ9dhxoBKGRKCmJmSShbd8Vt0 (https://www.linkedin.com/posts/salim-y-tannous-b5a073213_a-limited-number-of-areas-are-undisputed-activity-7281665001717698560-Nhsr?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_ios&rcm=ACoAADdUzDcByCxZ9dhxoBKGRKCmJmSShbd8Vt0)
::thumbup:: ::thumbup::
thank you , thank you, thank you.
: Jaime Sat Feb 15, 2025 - 08:23:09https://www.linkedin.com/posts/salim-y-tannous-b5a073213_a-limited-number-of-areas-are-undisputed-activity-7281665001717698560-Nhsr?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_ios&rcm=ACoAADdUzDcByCxZ9dhxoBKGRKCmJmSShbd8Vt0 (https://www.linkedin.com/posts/salim-y-tannous-b5a073213_a-limited-number-of-areas-are-undisputed-activity-7281665001717698560-Nhsr?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_ios&rcm=ACoAADdUzDcByCxZ9dhxoBKGRKCmJmSShbd8Vt0)
Sorry, but Jesus and the apostles were not discussing mount Herman, the book of Enoch, or a certain rebellion of the fallen angels against God in producing offspring with the woman of humanity at all. This is to completely ignore the context of what was actually being discussed, concerning the spiritual truth and prophetic reality of the Lord being the rock of salvation for His people. And replacing it with unbiblical legends.
Ps 118:22 The
stone which the builders refused is become the head
stone of the corner. 23 This is the LORD's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
Isa 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation
a stone, a
tried stone, a
precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
Dan 2:34 Thou sawest till that
a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them:
and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.Matt 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures,
The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Ps 18:2 The LORD is
my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.
Ps 18:31 For who is God save the LORD? or
who is a rock save our God?
Ps 18:46 The LORD liveth;
and blessed be my rock; and let the God of my salvation be exalted.
Ps 28:1 Unto thee will I cry,
O LORD my rock; be not silent to me: lest, if thou be silent to me, I become like them that go down into the pit.
Ps 31:1 In thee, O LORD, do I put my trust; let me never be ashamed: deliver me in thy righteousness. 2 Bow down thine ear to me; deliver me speedily:
be thou my strong rock, for an house of defence to save me. 3 For thou art
my rock and my fortress; therefore for thy name's sake lead me, and guide me.
Ps 42:9 I will say unto
God my rock, Why hast thou forgotten me? why go I mourning because of the oppression of the enemy?
Ps 62:1 Truly my soul waiteth upon God: from him cometh my salvation. 2
He only is my rock and my salvation; he is my defence; I shall not be greatly moved.
Ps 62:6
He only is my rock and my salvation: he is my defence; I shall not be moved.
Ps 95:1 O come, let us sing unto the LORD: let us make a joyful noise
to the rock of our salvation.Isa 8:13 Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. 14 And he shall be for a sanctuary;
but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
Isa 32:1 Behold, a king shall reign in righteousness, and princes shall rule in judgment. 2 And a man shall be as an hiding place from the wind, and a covert from the tempest; as rivers of water in a dry place,
as the shadow of a great rock in a weary land. 3 And the eyes of them that see shall not be dim, and the ears of them that hear shall hearken.
1 Cor 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they
drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets,
Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
He could have told what he told them anywhere. I would suggest he had a specific reason to travel to that extremely pagan site for that discussion that day. To practicing Jews of that day Caesarea Phillipi area was a place to be avoided for devout Jews. The sin city of that day.
I think he wanted to demonstrate that they shouldn't be afraid of evil, but that they ahould be willing to storm the gates of hell, and the evil epitomized by that place would not prevail against the church they would build. The imagery of the place must have been important to Jesus and his message or he would have communicated his message in a more "acceptable and appropriate" place. He wanted the picture and the idea of his message to have a lasting impact, otherwise why go out of the way to THAT repulsive place?
: Jaime Sun Feb 16, 2025 - 17:04:45He could have told what he told them anywhere. I would suggest he had a specific reason to travel to that extremely pagan site for that discussion that day. To practicing Jews of that day Caesarea Phillipi area was a place to be avoided for devout Jews. The sin city of that day.
I think he wanted to demonstrate that they shouldn't be afraid of evil, but that they ahould be willing to storm the gates of hell, and the evil epitomized by that place would not prevail against the church they would build. The imagery of the place must have been important to Jesus and his message or he would have communicated his message in a more "acceptable and appropriate" place. He wanted the picture and the idea of his message to have a lasting impact, otherwise why go out of the way to THAT repulsive place?
OK. So let's follow through with that thought. What distinct church is at Caesarea Philippi today? And do you seek out and acknowledge that literal church as the literal church of Christ established against the gates of hell? Are places themselves holy or evil, or do the evil or holy actions of people in places make them either or?
Jhn 4:21 Jesus saith unto her,
Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.As far as the location, Jesus went many places the Jews would not go, to reach those the most in need. And He has commanded His very own to go to all the world. Perhaps the location is and was of significance as well. Nevertheless, the lesson and truth being taught, far ascends mere location. There is already one major deception in the world concerning just who or what the rock being addressed in the verses under examination really represent. Which millions have and do continue to be deceived by. No one will be saved by considering the rock addressed to be Mount Herman itself. All will be saved who acknowledge the rock to be our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, who alone is the rock of our salvation, for all who choose to believe in and follow His most perfect example.
Mat 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: 34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. 35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. 36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. 37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. 38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. 40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? 41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. 42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures,
The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. 45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
Let us not contribute today, in any way, to the rejection of this stone unto destruction. For all who would reject and or replace this stone, or this rock, will have the kingdom of God taken away from them.
Think the place called the gates of hell versus the spiritual gates of hell. Jesus'point was NOT that the physical place called the gates of hell near Ceasarea Phillipi would not prevail over the church, but the evil it epitomized would not. Jesus took them to that place to drill into their heads a truth about the Church and evil. It was NOT a lesson about a cave in a cliff. The place brought a picture clear to their minds. The Jewish/Eastern mind deals and communicates in pictures versus concepts like our Western minds. How better to demonstrate to the diciples they have nothing to fear from the place they avoided like the plague, nor do they have a reason to fear evil overcoming the worldwide Church Jesus is commissioning them to build. The place they went for the story was for their benefit in absorbing and applying Jesus' words. Jesus had a purpose for every move he made in his training the disciples. I don't believe it was happenstance for him to take them out of way to this repugnant location as devout Jews. It was an object lesson involving a picture of the evil they believed existed there and were raised to avoid at all cost. Jesus' message to them as curators of His early Church was fear not (what this place represents) for I have overcome the world.
Amo, your message about the Rock is valid, no argument. I just think there are multiple lessons to glean from this story. AND this place they were at was host to unspeakable evil. A force ultimatrly subjected to Jesus and his Church demonstrated in an object lesson to the disciples. AND because of the book of Enoch this place is relative to the issue of Giants and Nephilim, the topic of this thread. I accept that the book of Enoch is not scripture, but I definitely do believe it holds some value and insight. Your fopic about the Rock would be an awesome aeparate topic. Go for it!
I won't argue that the place of Christ's declaration of what His Church is built upon has no significance. Only stress that without question, who His Church is built upon, is the very most important detail to know.
I have never bought into the old fallen angels mating with the women of fallen humanity thing. The world is filled with the remains of countless creatures, many still prevalent today, who were much larger in the past than they are now. There was no "supernatural" mechanism necessary to this apparently, so why would humanity be any different? The world was obviously far more conducive to what we would consider giantism today, in the past. This is agreed to by evolutionists and creationists alike. Accepting humans of course, whom evolutionists simply do not believe existed at such a time.
https://www.genesispark.com/exhibits/early-earth/larger-organisms/
: Jaime Sat Feb 15, 2025 - 08:23:09https://www.linkedin.com/posts/salim-y-tannous-b5a073213_a-limited-number-of-areas-are-undisputed-activity-7281665001717698560-Nhsr?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_ios&rcm=ACoAADdUzDcByCxZ9dhxoBKGRKCmJmSShbd8Vt0 (https://www.linkedin.com/posts/salim-y-tannous-b5a073213_a-limited-number-of-areas-are-undisputed-activity-7281665001717698560-Nhsr?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_ios&rcm=ACoAADdUzDcByCxZ9dhxoBKGRKCmJmSShbd8Vt0)
The video was interesting, but where did you find this guy? His page is full of anti-Israel pro-Palestine stuff.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-WKE0FIdvs
Ancient Stone Structures: Evidence Against Evolution? | David Rives' Thoughts on GSR
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Fri Feb 21, 2025 - 13:10:58The video was interesting, but where did you find this guy? His page is full of anti-Israel pro-Palestine stuff.
Somebody sent me the link. I don't do any research much on a writers background. It's the coracity of the story that counts to me. I don't typically filter things too much if they have an interesting theme. A stopped clock is right twice a day, right? 🤓 if we all filtered everything to the nth degree, it would remove most fodder for discussion. Him being anti-Israel and pro-Palestinian would be A factor, but certainly no reason to theownout a story inrelated to this topic, that I could discern anyway.
This was on Youtube, following my morning church that is broadcast there.
It is new to me.. I think.... unless I am forgetting things now. rofl . Some does seem familiar but not all.
Title: A Race of Giants
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mR5i0lI3xrw&t=981s
You may need to move that little red dot to the left to get to the beginning.
@Amo, @Wycliffes-Shillelagh, @DaveW, @Jaime,
Amo, I do hope this opens for you...........
Well, now I see a possible link to the proof of bigfoot. If they can come up with one linking Nessie, I will be happy. ... maybe.
Yea, you still have to sign in, as youtube has labeled the video unrated. Cause it might only be suitable for mature audiences. Which is probably a load of dung.
: Amo Fri Feb 28, 2025 - 07:32:49Yea, you still have to sign in, as youtube has labeled the video unrated. Cause it might only be suitable for mature audiences. Which is probably a load of dung.
I dont understand that.
I dont have to sign in. I never had any kind of a youtube account.
My church broadcasts the sermons on Youtube and it was while watching the service this came up the side ... kind of like a thumbnail so after church was done I clicked on it and it has so really really new stuff for me.
First half I have seen on and off over the years....
BUT... if it is unrated then it is suitable for all audiences...
It shows bones, and people at digs, and talk of various locations, and all the native American locations, and those around the world, and of the Smithsonian, and you cannot hardly walk away from this one
thinking there is nothing to it.
Unless you have a VPN?
I have to run out but when I am back Ill see if there is other links or a link other then Youtube.
@Amo
Try this one as it came from the drop down in my search
https://tubitv.com/movies/418130/a-race-of-giants
It is a different link for the same video... and still might need to move that red dot to the left to get it to the beginning???
Looks like that one works. I'll check it out later. Thanks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZjU_hioDfQ
If the above video among others concerning the discovery of huge structures deep under the Pyramids turns out to be true, present evolutionary and historical narratives and time scales will have to radically change.
I predict - 1. another movement of evolutionary time scales to include much earlier dates of human development to allow for such major accomplishments by humans so far back in time under present models.
2. More Alien influence and tech. conspiracy theories.
3. More cyclical human development and catastrophic end scenarios.
4. More evidence supporting my own views, A. that the antediluvians were giants compared to people today, both physically and intellectually. B. Capable of such tremendous feats as those we find the remains of all over the world, which have even been built upon by past civilizations who claimed their accomplishments as their own. C. The post flood descendants of which were also so capable of such, that God intervened to prevent them from accomplishing their own evil designs unto universal destruction again too soon.
Gen 11:1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech. 2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there. 3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter. 4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. 5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. 6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. 7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. 8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. 9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.
We were never a lower form of life, but to the contrary, perfect from the beginning. Having devolved since the fall and direct intervention of God in the destruction of that more perfect world by the judgment. And further interference by God at the Tower of Babel unto necessary divisive measures to prevent a rapid repeat of humanities leaning unto evil, unto universal destruction once again.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PADK6Qq2hgk&t=79s
More about buried structures in Egypt. Concerning the ancient megalithic labyrinths many historians referred to.
This is well worth the time to watch for new info as well as some old.
The Nephilim - Was There a Giant Problem in America?
@Amo
This is a Youtube video so I am not sure you will be able to see it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlxROOvmNuk
It can also be seen here by clicking on the arrow where you see the native americans...
https://charismanews.com/news/were-giants-real-new-evidence-links-biblical-nephilim-to-north-america/