Here is a response I gave to someone who tried to argue this same point with me....
Most guys don't realize it is possible to jackoff without fantasizing or lusting. But my belief is that we masturbation can be a great exercise in "taking thoughts captive." Instead of thinking of a person or people or scenarios...simply think of the task at hand. enjoy the moment, the feelings and the act.
Lets define terms:
-lust - to desire something or someone forbidden (lust)
-penis - something all men have
-wet dreams - what happens when I don't jack off. So it is going to happen one way or another.
-masturbation - jacking off
>Not one scripture addresses this issue, though it literally is a natural universal practice of all healthy males. However, it does address issues when sexual practices include other individuals--whether it is in thought or deed.
I found that masturbation can be done without lust. Yes, (like everything) it can be overdone, but so can eating. The solution is not to starve yourself, which leads to binge-eating. The solution is to train your mind to change how you eat or use food.
If God told you to abstain from jacking off, by all means, do it without a doubt. Also keep in mind though, I just read a post yesterday, where a guy said God's voice told him to go look at porn in the middle of the night. How do we know that was wrong?..because we have scripture and Jesus very own words to know that lusting over a woman is wrong.
Now let's look at some Bible references, because the Bible also says to rightly divide the word of truth - and they prove my point--not yours:
1 Corinthians 6:18 - is literally talking about sleeping with a prostitute.
1 Corinthians 10:13 - uses the example in Numbers when the jewish men committed whoredom with the Moabite women
1 Peter 2:11 - uses the greek word means to "lust after someone/thing forbidden."
James 1:14-15 - It is referring to the same greek word as above. But it also proves the point because it says when one is tempted by their own lust (impure thoughts, lusting after someone forbidden)... THEN that will LEAD to SIN.
Thessalonians 4:3-5 - is talking about fleeing fornification. definition:
illicit sexual intercourse
adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11,12
metaph. the worship of idols
of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols
Galatians 5:19-21 - same words used above.
2 Timothy 1:7 - this was actually my point. having control over your thought life.
my point...keep your thought life pure, and obey scripture.
Think you are seeking to "excuse" something that is not in God's best plan for us Christians - who are supposed to "walk in the Spirit". IMO there is an ever present problem of the conflict between the "flesh" and the "spirit" while we are in our mortal bodies - but thanks be! - if we submit to the leading of the Indwelling Holy Spirit, The Lord will help us because we are told "The battle belongs to the Lord". Of ourselves (who have inherited Adams self-pleasing nature - and that includes "self-pleasuring"!) we can by dint of will-power try our best - but we often fail to live up to godly high standards - "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak". Am thinking of the list Paul gives of the "Fruit of the Spirit" (which am sure you know well and may "show" in the life you lead, viz: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. But what most casual readers of Scripture fail to notice, and "do something about" - is the following verse "And those who belong to Christ have crucified the lower nature, with it's passions and desires." Now what is it that we can do - I think Jesus gave the answer in John's Gospel when at The Last Supper" He stated "Abide in Me, as I in you - the same bringeth forth much fruit, for without Me you can do nothing!". We can find verses in the Bible that substantiate this tenet that we, who try to please God, can't do much by self-effort.
That brings me to a vital point! Many of us know full well that Christ's sacrifice of Himself, the shedding of His precious blood (having the DNA of God - because of the virgin conception from on high, and not that of Man) - and the laying down of His life - has purchased us from sin, so He owns us. As Paui wrote "Do you not know that your body is a temple of the living God. You do not belong to yourselves, but have been bought at a price. Then honour God in your body." . So we have been "reconciled" to God - but there is another vital step He wants us to "be conformed to the image of His Son", and to aid us in that process, as Joel says He has "poured out His spirit on all men"/ Paul writes that "If a man does not possess the Spirit of Christ - he is no Christian.". The purpose of the indwelling Holy Spirit is to "sanctify" us - make us like Jesus in character - that's going to be a life-long job, so that at our end, He will be the First among many brethren". Now that requires us to submit (Thy will be done- not my will) to the leading, and if needs be, the correction of the Holy Spirit. The "still small voice of calm" within us! I don't think that any form of self-indulgence or self-pleasuring is acceptable under such "jurisdiction"! Sadly for many that "still small voice pf calm within" is silent! There may be many different reasons for that loss - e.g. determination to go one's own way in life, or indulgence in outright sin ("If we regard evil in our hearts - God will not hear us.).
Making "The Sinner's Prayer" is but a beginning - we need to have a deep relationship with the Lord - holding Him in reverence as not only a "ticket to heaven" - but the very finest and best Friend we will ever have - and take care (in our right mind) not to grieve Him. We wouldn't spit in a friend's face or ignore them - so how come we sometimes ignore the Lord and please ourselves? If we really want that deeper relationship, then as Jesus said to Nicodemus - we must be born again to "see" the kingdom of God - "The water [i.e. of a believer's baptism] and the Spirit bring new life in Christ Jesus" as the Charismatic Renewal Song "The Light Of Christ" says. What does it mean to us "to be born again"? It is a "touch" from the Lord, a realization that we are no longer alone in life - He shares it with us, if we let Him - "walking in the Light, as He is in the Light!" Every thing is made new in our eyes - we start to understand the wonder of it all!
If our lives have been "touched" by the Lord and are trying to "walk in the Spirit" - we need to remember Paul's injunction to us in Eph 4:30 "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God .for that Spirit is the seal with which you were marked for the day of our final liberation."!
by that logic, we should overcome eating, using the restroom, or any other bodily function through the Spirit too.
: st831 Mon Oct 28, 2019 - 08:16:48
by that logic, we should overcome eating, using the restroom, or any other bodily function through the Spirit too.
Methinks you are "wriggling"! You know
full well what Paul was alluding to when he wrote
"And those who belong to Christ have crucified the lower nature, with it's passions and desires." -
as he does in passages like Rom 6:12-14 "So sin must no longer reign in your mortal body, exacting obedience to the body's desires.(*) You must no longer put it's several parts at sin's disposal as implements for doing wrong. No : put yourself at the disposal of God, as dead men raised to life; yield your bodies to Him as implements for doing right; for sin shall no longer be your master, because you are no longer under law, but under the grace of God." IMO, if one is living in an environment where "temptations" that excite "illicit" sexual urges abound (which applies to the majority of us in these times); then it is difficult to fight against those inclinations. A cry to the Lord for help, to turn away from such "urges" - will, if we have a trusting relationship with Him, provide relief - until in our human weakness we may take a "tumble" again, and come crying to the Lord. From experience, in most cases His response may be something like :
"Get up, and move on - "it's water under the bridge", or in other words "it's no good crying over spilt milk"! The problem is that those "illicit" urges are sexually unproductive in producing new life, and hence would seem to be classed as ungodly acts - only done to gain some personal "selfish" satisfaction, or relief from "pressures". That's Adam's inherited "self-pleasing" nature again!
Paul writes that "We have been crucified with Christ!", or rather "in God's eyes" when Jesus went to the cross we were
"in" him" (Paul uses this
"in" business a lot in his epistles e.g.
"God has set us in Christ Jesus", "Christ in you the hope of glory to come." etc,) This is made plain by Jesus statements at The last Supper
"I in you and you in me" (vide John's Gospel) before He went to the cross.
We gather that the purpose of that, was that "in God's eyes" our inherited Adamic sin-nature should also be crucified with Jesus as our "sin-offering and Great High Priest!" Sadly, we still
experience that "curse" of a self-pleasing nature - concentrating too often on "looking after numero 1" i.e. ourselves, instead if revering the Lord and caring for our fellow humanity!
(
* "...exacting obedience to the body's desires"? We all know what that really means! Sometimes a glance at something it would have been better to ignore - then the wrong thoughts - leading us on to possibly relieve the "pressure". So let's not pretend to be too holy to know about it! The "wrong thought" is often "father" to the "wrong deed"! Night-time is often the danger time, when in our preparations to drop-off to sleep, our subconscious minds play-back those wrong thoughts of our waking day. Prayer before "snoozing off" can help. Re that, personally I like praying relevant portions of the psalms, such as this relevant excerpt from one of David's Psalms : -
"When I call Thee to mind upon my bed.
And think on Thee in the watches of the night.
Remembering how Thou hast been my help,
And that I am safe in the shadow of Thy wings,
Then I humbly follow Thee with all my heart,
And Thy right hand is my support.")
Lest you think I might consider myself "to be 'up there', above other lesser mortals" - I confess to taking a "tumble" last night. Instead of flipping the page over in my paper containing a salacious article - I read it, and what is worse, went back later to re-read it again! ::frown:: Needless to say - I fell into my own "pit" of wicked imaginings! Oh weak humanity! ::prayinghard::