I have checked this site and there appears to be no segment where a user can uphold a moderator against the rules, and ask him to account for his actions if he (appears to) violate the board rules.
I suppose this segment of the board is used for that purpose.
This is a Christian forum, and one of the purposes as claimed, is to grant Christians a place where they can post their opinions.
The rules and regulations of this board do NOT mention that a member:
- may not criticize a public political figure
- must declare his country of residence to the other members.
Yet my account was muted for those exact same reasons: "For criticizing our President (Donald Trump) and for not letting members know where -he- lives".
As said above, there are no references in the regulations of this board that such are requirements.
By application therefore, the Moderator has overstepped his authority and he has let his political preference interfere with his judgment.
In addition, there are rules by which a moderator is to operate.
A user is warned of his violation of the rules.
The user is moderated, and after multiple warnings only, is muted.
In this case however there was no violation. The process of moderation was completely skipped and the user (me) was muted.
This is an absolute new low on this forum.
It appears that a Christian may come to this board and post his opinions, as long as there are not in disfavor of Donald Trump.
What I have seen in the past that one is allowed to criticize and disagree with the Apostles, the church, church fathers, Calvin, Luther, Pink, the Pope and other members and you may call them liars and false prophets.
You may also criticize public political figures like Hillary Clinton or Teresa May. You may call them evil and murderers.
Criticism of public figures has been an ongoing ingredient of the Political Forum and a number of moderators have actively participated.
Yet, as now has been made clear, the only thing one is not allowed to do is criticize Donald Trump.
If you do, you get muted.
How sad is it that a moderator, who resides in a country that wishes to defend and uphold the First Amendment, revokes that right from a member on this forum.
Has this forum become a bulwark of followers of Donald Trump, and does this board principally condone many opinions regarding Christianity and the execution of religion, but having an opinion of the US President overrules that principle?
I believe that moderators too should be held to account of their actions.
In this case it is very clear that there was no violation of the board rules, and the moderator abused his authority to cut of the member.
A moderator too is completely free to either ignore the opinions of a user if he does not like them, or even use the ignore function available on this board as to avoid having to read messages from that member.
I also believe that especially a moderator should exercise objective judgment even if his personal (political) opinions differ.
I do expect the disabling of my account to be revoked, however, if the members of this board prefer to unite in their faith whilst wallowing in glorification of Donald Trump, a clear signal is given that Christianity as it is executed on this forum is as equally intolerant of diverting opinions as many other religions that are being fervently rejected on this board.
*Note: I created this account to be able to post this message. My usual handle is AVZ.*
Violation of rule 2.5-
You will not post in public any private correspondence (including contents of emails, PMs, IMs etc.) between yourself and another GCM member without the expressed permission of that member.
Violation of rule 2.6-
You will not publicly question a moderator's decision or accuse him/her of being biased or dishonest because of a decision. This will result in deletion of your post and possibly cause your account to be banned or suspended. Questioning of a moderator's decision may be done by sending
a polite private message to the moderator who made the decision or other moderators.
While we're at it, you're also guilty of violating rules pertaining to baiting, brinking, and flaming.
I have said negative things about Donald Trump on more than one occasion. I have not been silenced. But then again, I am not a coward who refuses to say where I am from and spends my time tearing apart a country I don't live in on top of it.
: Texas Conservative Tue Apr 07, 2020 - 10:11:43
I have said negative things about Donald Trump on more than one occasion. I have not been silenced. But then again, I am not a coward who refuses to say where I am from and spends my time tearing apart a country I don't live in on top of it.
+1
AVZ, I have stated to you over and over, you are welcome to bash Trump or anything else about America, but you will NOT keep your country a secret, at least as long as I am here. We deserve the same opportunity to research your country and bash IT. Fair is fair. This all was YOUR option. If you wish to complain, send Admin a PM. If you would rather just participate, tell us what your country is. If you do, I will unmute you. Easy enough.
Other Mods, please DO NOT remove this thread. If other members want to post their opinion, feel free to do so.
I'm certainly not a glorifier or fanboy of Trump although at the same time I can appreciate some of the things he has done. This isn't about liking him or disliking him, it's about the hit'n'run continual bashing that has taken place, the same reason crowcamp was moderated, because his displeasure with America's choice turned into a trolling session in a one way discussion. I believe AVZ was asked politely and then sternly to share some background, it may not be necessary on all of our boards but on the political board it should be fair to show some transparency if you want to be taken even the least bit serious.
BTW, we actually know where AVZ is from and we know who he is, rather than publicly disclose that information it would have been much more appropriate if he just revealed that himself.
Easy Peasy!
There are those here who have consistently bashed my country and leaders, no one cares about that though.
: chosenone Tue Apr 07, 2020 - 14:25:51
There are those here who have consistently bashed my country and leaders, no one cares about that though.
Consistently? Yeah right. I have lobbed criticisms against your country, just like you have against our country. I didn't hide where I am from. You didn't hide where you are from.
Get over it.
Chosenone, your country was never a secret. You and anyone else are free to bash Trump or the USA, as long as everyone else is given a shot at your country and they have.
No one should be given cover to criticize other people's countrIes unless their own country is revealed for fair game criticisms.
When you criticize our country or leader, you typically get something in return criticizing your country. Two way street is preferable, don't you think? If someone from Austria bashes the UK, I would stand by you to also find something to fairly counter punch Austria about, ESPECIALLY if they refused to reveal that they were from Austria and denied you the equal opportunity to research and criticize Something about their country.
Chosen, you know good and well you like it when Rella and I start discussing that soap opera y'all have going on within the Royal Family! You've joined in on more than one occasion. ::tippinghat::
And to this day, I still think Charles is a cad for what he did to Diana!!!
(https://i.imgur.com/T2nIvnq.png)
With her-
(https://i.imgur.com/dKerBpC.png)
By the way Judy, old news now but looks like Meghan and Harry did indeed move to the USA despite the remaining presence of bad orange man.
: Alan Tue Apr 07, 2020 - 15:48:30
By the way Judy, old news now but looks like Meghan and Harry did indeed move to the USA despite the remaining presence of bad orange man.
Yes, after saying they never would.
: Jaime Tue Apr 07, 2020 - 15:07:44
Chosenone, your country was never a secret. You and anyone else is free to bash Trump or the USA, as long as everyone else is given a shot at your country and they have.
No one should be given cover to criticize other people's country unless their own country is revealed for fair game criticisms.
When you criticize our country or leader, you typically get something in return criticizing your country. Two way street is preferable, don't you think? If someone from Austria bashes the UK, I would stand by you to also find something to fairly counter punch Austria about.
Some here do it just for the sake of it. That's why I stopped reading their posts or responding to them some time back. Much more sensible.
We can all have opinions and disagree about things, but to do it purely to get at others or goad others is very immature and that has happened many times in the past. That one of the reasons I generally stay out of 'bashing' threads and have done for some time.
: chosenone Tue Apr 07, 2020 - 16:00:03
Some here do it just for the sake of it. That's why I stopped reading their posts or responding to them some time back. Much more sensible.
We can all have opinions and disagree about things, but to do it purely to get at others or goad others is very immature and that has happened many times in the past. That one of the reasons I generally stay out of 'bashing' threads and have done for some time.
Violation of rule 7.2-
You may not post holier-than-thou comments, and display an attitude of hypocritical moral superiority when referring to other members in the forum. ::smile::
I have checked this site and there appears to be no segment where a user can uphold a moderator against the rules, and ask him to account for his actions if he (appears to) violate the board rules.
I suppose this segment of the board is used for that purpose.
This is a Christian forum, and one of the purposes as claimed, is to grant Christians a place where they can post their opinions.
The rules and regulations of this board do NOT mention that a member:
- may not criticize a public political figure
- must declare his country of residence to the other members.
Yet my account was muted for those exact same reasons: "For criticizing our President (Donald Trump) and for not letting members know where -he- lives".
As said above, there are no references in the regulations of this board that such are requirements.
By application therefore, the Moderator has overstepped his authority and he has let his political preference interfere with his judgment.
In addition, there are rules by which a moderator is to operate.
A user is warned of his violation of the rules.
The user is moderated, and after multiple warnings only, is muted.
In this case however there was no violation. The process of moderation was completely skipped and the user (me) was muted.
This is an absolute new low on this forum.
It appears that a Christian may come to this board and post his opinions, as long as there are not in disfavor of Donald Trump.
What I have seen in the past that one is allowed to criticize and disagree with the Apostles, the church, church fathers, Calvin, Luther, Pink, the Pope and other members and you may call them liars and false prophets.
You may also criticize public political figures like Hillary Clinton or Teresa May. You may call them evil and murderers.
Criticism of public figures has been an ongoing ingredient of the Political Forum and a number of moderators have actively participated.
Yet, as now has been made clear, the only thing one is not allowed to do is criticize Donald Trump.
If you do, you get muted.
How sad is it that a moderator, who resides in a country that wishes to defend and uphold the First Amendment, revokes that right from a member on this forum.
Has this forum become a bulwark of followers of Donald Trump, and does this board principally condone many opinions regarding Christianity and the execution of religion, but having an opinion of the US President overrules that principle?
I believe that moderators too should be held to account of their actions.
In this case it is very clear that there was no violation of the board rules, and the moderator abused his authority to cut of the member.
A moderator too is completely free to either ignore the opinions of a user if he does not like them, or even use the ignore function available on this board as to avoid having to read messages from that member.
I also believe that especially a moderator should exercise objective judgment even if his personal (political) opinions differ.
I do expect the disabling of my account to be revoked, however, if the members of this board prefer to unite in their faith whilst wallowing in glorification of Donald Trump, a clear signal is given that Christianity as it is executed on this forum is as equally intolerant of diverting opinions as many other religions that are being fervently rejected on this board.
*Note: I created this account to be able to post this message. My usual handle is AVZ.*
Back to OP.
Has no one caught this???
" For criticizing our President (Donald Trump) " Our? OUR?
Chosenone, I don't presume I know people's motives, but if being "goaded" is repulsive, I would say you might ought to stay away as you have threatened many times to do. It may well be a British thing to turn one's nose up at a goader, but I have always perceived the British to be able and willing to handle themselves well in these type interactions. Being goaded or goading is an American passtime. Our media is quite good at it! And our President and the opposition party is as well.
: Rella Tue Apr 07, 2020 - 16:35:00
Back to OP.
Has no one caught this???
" For criticizing our President (Donald Trump) " Our? OUR?
Well, actually, Rella, I think AVZ was just quoting the message sent to him from a moderator. I don't think AVZ was claiming Trump as his president.
: mommydi Tue Apr 07, 2020 - 16:56:54
Well, actually, Rella, I think AVZ was just quoting the message sent to him from a moderator. I don't think AVZ was claiming Trump as his president.
Right. That makes sense.
Thanks.
: Jaime Tue Apr 07, 2020 - 16:49:47
Chosenone, I don't presume I know people's motives, but if being "goaded" is repulsive, I would say you might ought to stay away as you have threatened many times to do. It may well be a British thing to turn one's nose up at a goader, but I have always perceived the British to be able and willing to handle themselves well in these type interactions. Being goaded or goading is an American passtime. Our media is quite good at it! And our President and the opposition party is as well.
I stay for reasons that I wont go into here, but yes I can handle myself and did for many years, but one day just knew that it was pointless answering or standing up for myself against some folk who weren't going to change and tended to 'gang up' like school children. I think the key moment came when one of the nicest, sweetest and most godly people I have ever known was driven away from here by this manipulating and immature gang mentality. A sad day. Lost my enthusiasm for this site that day, as she had no support apart from myself.
Goading may be an American thing but should it be a Christian thing? People are free to goad (if they REALLY think that is a godly way to behave), just as others are free not to take the bait. I chose not to take the bait and get into a pointless silly argument. For now I feel God wants me around here albeit for limited amounts of time. Life in our house is mega busy right now and will be for a long time, so I am not here for long when I can come. I am not going to let the gang drive me away as it did others.
: chosenone Tue Apr 07, 2020 - 22:13:28
I stay for reasons that I wont go into here, but yes I can handle myself and did for many years, but one day just knew that it was pointless answering or standing up for myself against some folk who weren't going to change and tended to 'gang up' like school children. I think the key moment came when one of the nicest and most godly people I have ever known was driven away by from here by this manipulating and immature gang mentality. A sad day. Lost my enthusiasm for this site that day, as she had no support apart from myself.
Goading may be an American thing but should it be a Christian thing?
Chosen, there are varying personality types here - just as there are at all other message boards. However, message boards, such as this one, are going the way of dinosaurs. It has always been lively here. I've been here off and on since January of 2005, and there have always been rowdy conversations and heated arguments along with some more quiet conversations, prayerful moments, and a great deal of humor - both out right, boisterous laughter and more subtle, mischievous grins. And can I say, in all the years I've been here, I've never witnessed you joining in on any of the light-hearted, fun loving thread - which to me is sad. Do you ever laugh or join in any type light-hearted convos? Do you want to? Some people laugh, love, and communicate boldly, while others are more subdued, sensitive, and retiring. Neither personality types are wrong/bad - even though you keep referring to the more vocal and bold members as "ungodly."
You see people here who have a stronger, bold personality as "childish" and "sad." I see people who can never laugh or be light-hearted as "sad."
And while I'm at it-
When you insult someone's country, leader, customs, or whatever, please stop calling them "rude" when they answer back. ::smile::
: chosenone Tue Apr 07, 2020 - 22:13:28
I stay for reasons that I wont go into here, but yes I can handle myself and did for many years, but one day just knew that it was pointless answering or standing up for myself against some folk who weren't going to change and tended to 'gang up' like school children. I think the key moment came when one of the nicest, sweetest and most godly people I have ever known was driven away from here by this manipulating and immature gang mentality. A sad day. Lost my enthusiasm for this site that day, as she had no support apart from myself.
Goading may be an American thing but should it be a Christian thing? People are free to goad (if they REALLY think that is a godly way to behave), just as others are free not to take the bait. I chose not to take the bait and get into a pointless silly argument. For now I feel God wants me around here albeit for limited amounts of time. Life in our house is mega busy right now and will be for a long time, so I am not here for long when I can come. I am not going to let the gang drive me away as it did others.
As one of the gang I need make a comment.
When someone comes bashing the candidate and President of another country it sure does not make a good citizen to stand by and take it on the chin when the accuser's own politicians and heads of the country were not better. And was demonstrated here a mere few days back.
We did not start the goading.... that was started by someone... hmmm I wonder who.... who said "What horrible man."
We will always stand up for our country.
As to you other comment about
" one of the nicest, sweetest and most godly people I have ever known was driven away from " will be left unnamed, but everyone from back then knows who are are referring to.
I suggest you follow him on twitter. Same user name. And definitely Not a godly person. Enough said.
I HOPE Chosenone was referring to a female poster that left a while back.
: Jaime Wed Apr 08, 2020 - 09:20:40
I HOPE Chosenone was referring to a female poster that left a while back.
I remember that one also. But the gang as she refers to me and the others were not so had to be another gang?
: chosenone Tue Apr 07, 2020 - 22:13:28
I stay for reasons that I wont go into here, but yes I can handle myself and did for many years, but one day just knew that it was pointless answering or standing up for myself against some folk who weren't going to change and tended to 'gang up' like school children. I think the key moment came when one of the nicest, sweetest and most godly people I have ever known was driven away from here by this manipulating and immature gang mentality. A sad day. Lost my enthusiasm for this site that day, as she had no support apart from myself.
Goading may be an American thing but should it be a Christian thing? People are free to goad (if they REALLY think that is a godly way to behave), just as others are free not to take the bait. I chose not to take the bait and get into a pointless silly argument. For now I feel God wants me around here albeit for limited amounts of time. Life in our house is mega busy right now and will be for a long time, so I am not here for long when I can come. I am not going to let the gang drive me away as it did others.
I think He does also.
There is a concept called grace, it is a most powerful tool, often it is the only option to deescalate a situation. Unfortunately it can also be seen as unfair/unjust, if someone bashes my PM, surely I should bash their leader, fair is fair right. ::frown:: As a Christian, some things may seem unfair, everyone else can sleep around, lie, and cheat, yet we are held to a higher standard. As far as I can tell, Christianity discourages the two wrongs make a right philosophy, we are to swallow our pride, turn the other cheek, apply grace generously,
: jaimeAVZ, I have stated to you over and over, you are welcome to bash Trump or anything else about America, but you will NOT keep your country a secret, at least as long as I am here. We deserve the same opportunity to research your country and bash IT. Fair is fair. This all was YOUR option. If you wish to complain, send Admin a PM. If you would rather just participate, tell us what your country is. If you do, I will unmute you. Easy enough.
Personally, criticism not withstanding, "bashing" another's country should be condemned or ignored, therefore I would certainly not endorse a tit for tat rebuttal, and frankly I see it as contrary to the Christian teachings of grace.
As for valid criticism, if the location of the poster is not relevant to the discussion, it is not relevant to the discussion, and demanding a person reveal it so one can criticize his/her country, may seem fair, but is it consistent with the teachings of Christianity? No longer do we demand an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, Jesus seems to contradict this fair is fair philosophy.
Perhaps AVZ has a very good reason not to disclose his location. I have a friend that had a serious issue on another forum, without getting into it too deeply all he revealed was his country, but some folks went through years of posts for clues, and threats were made and pictures of his home and work posted. These were not images from Streetview, these were pictures somebody took. He is unlikely to ever reveal details about his location again, and rightly so.
I am not suggesting anyone here would do such a thing, but y'all are not the only folks reading this stuff.
I do think AVZ should tone down his criticism of Trump, for his own sake, it harms his credibility and I do think he has made some very good points, that are simply lost due to his rhetoric.
Anyway, probably upset enough of y'all for now.
Please consider my arguments, it is not an attempt to condemn or judge, it is simply how I feel.
And Judy, you are truly a warrior, on the day of judgment God will look upon you and say, You are my daughter, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.
Cheers Y'all, and be safe.
Carey.
: Carey Wed Apr 08, 2020 - 09:57:48
I think He does also.
There is a concept called grace, it is a most powerful tool, often it is the only option to deescalate a situation. Unfortunately it can also be seen as unfair/unjust, if someone bashes my PM, surely I should bash their leader, fair is fair right. ::frown:: As a Christian, some things may seem unfair, everyone else can sleep around, lie, and cheat, yet we are held to a higher standard. As far as I can tell, Christianity discourages the two wrongs make a right philosophy, we are to swallow our pride, turn the other cheek, apply grace generously,
Personally, criticism not withstanding, "bashing" another's country should be condemned or ignored, therefore I would certainly not endorse a tit for tat rebuttal, and frankly I see it as contrary to the Christian teachings of grace.
As for valid criticism, if the location of the poster is not relevant to the discussion, it is not relevant to the discussion, and demanding a person reveal it so one can criticize his/her country, may seem fair, but is it consistent with the teachings of Christianity? No longer do we demand an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, Jesus seems to contradict this fair is fair philosophy.
Perhaps AVZ has a very good reason not to disclose his location. I have a friend that had a serious issue on another forum, without getting into it too deeply all he revealed was his country, but some folks went through years of posts for clues, and threats were made and pictures of his home and work posted. These were not images from Streetview, these were pictures somebody took. He is unlikely to ever reveal details about his location again, and rightly so.
I am not suggesting anyone here would do such a thing, but y'all are not the only folks reading this stuff.
I do think AVZ should tone down his criticism of Trump, for his own sake, it harms his credibility and I do think he has made some very good points, that are simply lost due to his rhetoric.
Anyway, probably upset enough of y'all for now.
Please consider my arguments, it is not an attempt to condemn or judge, it is simply how I feel.
And Judy, you are truly a warrior, on the day of judgment God will look upon you and say, You are my daughter, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.
Cheers Y'all, and be safe.
Carey.
Thank you Carey, you have confirmed a word that someone else gave me a while back.
You are always such a breath of fresh air and have a lot of wisdom, its those like you who keep me here.
God Bless
Carey, bashing was only a term I used to describe pointing out faults. No one needs to bash for bashing sake, BUT a spirited discussion about the comparative faults of a couple of countries or their leaders is anything but unChristian. Can it BECOME unChristian? Sure. I am only wanting to promote fairness among the participants. If someone points out a weakness they perceive in America, I or anyone else should have the opportunity to research the other country and point out its weaknesses. Nothing unChristian about that. Can it TURN INTO vindictiveness? Yes. But I think for the most part we do a pretty good job of preventing that. Not perfectly, but pretty good. About the same as one would find in our theology forum. Again, don't get too wound up about the word bash. People from different countries have different connotations of the same word. One can see pointing out weaknesses, the other sees total personal destruction. Bashing is a hugely subjective term and I should have chosen a better term. Anyone who wants to criticize my country should fairly reveal their country and allow me to research and calmly criticize it or it's leader. "Calmly" is another hugely subjective word. My wife and I differ greatly on what that word means. I usually go with her interpretation!
Back to people's perception of words, we knew a couple from Austrailia, and one day she asked my wife at church if she had a rubber with her. My wife was aghast at the question, especially in church but our Austrailian friend was referring to an ERASER! Not a colloquialism for a condom. Crisis averted. My wife revived pretty quickly.
Again as to AVZ, I'm pretty surr we could converse for hours and not need each other's location. It only becomes relevant when one criticizes the other's country or leader. It's not unChristian to have a spirited debate of the plusses and minuses of each other's country or leader. When someone indicates orange man bad, it is not unChristian to disagree or to point out faults with their leader that may be just as repulsive. Most of the time, it boils down to we supposedly worship Trump and that is horse hockey, to put it diplomatically.
Also Carey, we don't need want AVZ's GPS Coordinates, address or zip code. Just his country. I even told him once if he is concerned about persecution from his government or countrymen we can do something else. That got no response. In my western mind fairness should override pretty much everything. Being unfair Is being unChristian. I asked for fairness on his part multiple times in this regard. It was not one and done. This is why I asked for this thread NOT to be deleted or moved. I want to FAIRLY address everyone's concerns. That is also why I encouraged AVZ and others to PM Admin about the situation. Someone or everyone PLEASE do that! I appreciate everyone's input. Notice I am capable of calm dispute and not just unhinged lashing out (bashing to some) If there are any others that would like to weigh in, let 'er rip........not literally mind you! ::blushing:: (not so veiled humor BTW for the non West Texans).
Jaime, I appreciate your openness, and explanation.
But I have seen what I would define as bashing, it goes beyond criticism and becomes personal. Name calling, using derogatory terms to describe your POTUS, even seen "Trump Virus" used a few times. Not necessarily here, I am active on two forums and sometimes it is hard to separate the two in my memory, I am not attributing these to AVZ.
What it comes down to is respect for the office, criticism is entirely appropriate, but some of the things I have seen are not.
That said, I am going to have to disagree with you on the desire to know a members location, I still maintain that if the location of a poster is not relevant to his argument, it should not be demanded, and simply wanting the same opportunity to discuss their country is not a valid reason to make such a demand. I think turn the other cheek is absolutely applicable here. That said, I accept that you see things differently. And understand, when you and I disagree I do see grace in your responses to me, thanks for that.
And please know, I laboured over my comments as applying to Christianity. I did my best to present my feelings on the matter as inoffensively as possible, if I came across as judgmental I am sorry, but I believe it was more important to be honest in my perception of this than worry about stepping on a few toes.
Anyway, thanks you for leaving this thread open and letting me share my thoughts on the matter.
Stay safe brother,
Carey.
AVZ is a godly man and loves the scriptures. I may not agree with his political views and other points, (and I truly do not know them) yet he's a brother and should be loved by me and others as well. His location is his right to keep private even his nation if he so desires, I see no problem with that, also I see no reason why he should withhold it, but who cares, what difference does it really mean, other than some may not like what he's doing? One reason I kinda stay free of some threads is for this very reason. I'm NOT taking sides, just giving my own thoughts on this~this is NOT about taking sides but what is right and godly.
I agree with what Carey wrote who is more qualified than myself to speak on such issues since he's MUCH MORE gentle of a person than myself, for I do get fired up very quickly at times and have to ask forgiveness later. I do not think I need to convince others of this.
AVZ 100% trolls the political forum. There is no question about that at all. He's been warned by the mods to tone down his trolling of the political forum - but yet no - he refuses.
And excuse me, but where is his outpouring of grace in the political forum? Even after he's been warned, he keeps on trolling, trolling, trolling.
And it's not just a "Trump" thing. His disdain for everything USA permeates his posts. Where is his grace and mercy toward his brothers and sisters in the US??
I agree Mommydi. Red, I am more than happy to un-mute AVZ if he plays fair and allows others the opportunity to point out faults in HIS country. Fairness does make a difference ABSOLUTELY! Red, I have probably disagreed more with few people here more than you, and I ALWAYS consider you fair and I hope you do me. I have offered AVZ an out if he feels he would be oppressed or persecuted by someone, his countrymen or others, no response. There is NO reason to not be fair and offer that bit of information. We are not trying ro pinpoint him for a cruise missile strike. His disagreement with me or his dislike of Trump is not the issue. Godly is as Godly DOES and being and acting fairly IS The demonstration of Godliness.
Carey, how in the name of Waylon Jennings is AVZs location NOT relevant when criticizing someone else's country? The other party deserves the basic fairness in knowing what country to research and compare and offer counter criticisms in return. If that is stifled, all we have is just pointless, malicious one sided trolling. It's akin to keeping men out of women's forums and vice versa. It's only fair.
: mommydi Wed Apr 08, 2020 - 14:09:38
AVZ 100% trolls the political forum. There is no question about that at all. He's been warned by the mods to tone down his trolling of the political forum - but yet no - he refuses.
And excuse me, but where is his outpouring of grace in the political forum? Even after he's been warned, he keeps on trolling, trolling, trolling.
And it's not just a "Trump" thing. His disdain for everything USA permeates his posts. Where is his grace and mercy toward his brothers and sisters in the US??
Thank you for saying this in a far more gentle way then I would have.
+1
: mommydi Tue Apr 07, 2020 - 15:42:50
Chosen, you know good and well you like it when Rella and I start discussing that soap opera y'all have going on within the Royal Family! You've joined in on more than one occasion. ::tippinghat::
And to this day, I still think Charles is a cad for what he did to Diana!!!
(https://i.imgur.com/T2nIvnq.png)
With her-
(https://i.imgur.com/dKerBpC.png)
Beyond me how he could have selected that face over her legs ::frown::
: Jaime Wed Apr 08, 2020 - 14:18:56
I agree Mommydi. Red, I am more than happy to un-mute AVZ if he plays fair and allows others the opportunity to point out faults in HIS country. Fairness does make a difference ABSOLUTELY! Red, I have probably disagreed more with few people here more than you, and I ALWAYS consider you fair and I hope you do me. I have offered AVZ an out if he feels he would be oppressed or persecuted by someone, his countrymen or others, no response. There is NO reason to not be fair and offer that bit of information. We are not trying ro pinpoint him for a cruise missile strike. His disagreement with me or his dislike of Trump is not the issue. Godly is as Godly DOES and being and acting fairly IS The demonstration of Godliness.
Well, one thing I see is this.
AVZ continues to sew disharmony even when he is not around.
Opens a new listing with a modified user name.
Level accusations....
And now is gone...
Sheeesh...................................................................... ::doh::
If people here don't like what AVZ says then don't read his posts and don't reply. Its not hard. I don't think he should be banned for disagreeing with others here on politics. Nor does he have to say where he lives, in fact I think he is wise not to say after my experiences here.
People will attack and be rude about other countries/leaders just to get a rise, which is why I not longer reply to such posts. Best such comments are ignored.
Chosenone I have told you three times in the last two days I didn't mute him because he disagreed with me. I would appreciate it if you would quit saying you don't think he should be muted because I disagreed with him. Would that be possible, employing all the grace you can muster? I'm asking nicely! I'm serious as a heart attack!
And when have you ignored comments about the UK?
If you can't take the criticism, don't comment about the US and our leader, and if you get any attack comments about the UK unprovoked, that's a whole different thing.
: chosenone Wed Apr 08, 2020 - 15:15:06
People will attack and be rude about other countries/leaders just to get a rise...
So when you've attacked our president, healthcare system, gun laws, etc, you were doing it to get a rise. I knew it, but it's nice of you to confirm. ::tippinghat::
When AVZ trolls the politics forum, attacking everything USA, he's doing it "just to get a rise." Yes, that's called trolling.
Absolutely. I try to get a rise out of TC all the time and we joust back and forth in good nature. It's easy to tell the difference!
There have been a few occasions where me and TC will get into a serious debate. We do respect each other.
: chosenone Wed Apr 08, 2020 - 15:15:06
People will attack and be rude about other countries/leaders just to get a rise, which is why I not longer reply to such posts.
Always in response to having the homelands leader(s) attacked/accused first. And then to point out the accusations against the homelands leader(s) can always be found within the accuser's leaders.
Let's all agree that we are sensitive to having our country lambasted, those of us with the guts to reveal our country. Or could we get a concession from the "Godly ones" that we all are sensitive to such.
: Jaime Wed Apr 08, 2020 - 15:19:52
if you get any attack comments about the UK unprovoked, that's a whole different thing.
Ummm, I kind of did that in a way recently. I'msorry.
So is good she does not read me anymore.
: Jaime Wed Apr 08, 2020 - 15:32:35
Let's all agree that we are sensitive to having our country pummeled, those of us with the guts to reveal our country.
I agree. Note:I will always have my countrymen's backs... From POTUS to pauper.
I like that this discussion is being held in the open. ::applause::
I think it's a good principle that people should be required to disclose their own country of residence if they are going to criticize others' countries.
: Rella Wed Apr 08, 2020 - 15:29:33
Always in response to having the homelands leader(s) attacked/accused first. And then to point out the accusations against the homelands leader(s) can always be found within the accuser's leaders.
Absolutely not, there have been many occasions in past years where my country or its leaders were attacked with no provocation or reason. At least one member here seems to hate the UK for reasons I can't fathom but that's between them and God.
: Rella Wed Apr 08, 2020 - 15:34:44
I agree. Note:I will always have my countrymen's backs... From POTUS to pauper.
I love my country very much, and support its leaders, but I feel I can support them and pray for them more than adequately without having to read, listen to or reply to rude and inane and baiting comments directed towards them.
Norrinradd, you are 100% correct, and obviously not Godly to some.
::lookaround::
That's good to know Chosenone. We will expect to not hear any rebuttals from you then concerning any upcoming criticisms of the UK, inane or otherwise. Lead the way! Thanks.
: chosenone Wed Apr 08, 2020 - 15:38:37
Absolutely not, there have been many occasions in past years where my country or its leaders were attacked with no provocation or reason. At least one member here seems to hate the UK for reasons I can't fathom but that's between them and God.
Listen, just because TC thinks you all should invest more in orthodontics, that doesn't mean he hates you guys. He's just concerned for your oral health and wants y'all to look your best! ::tippinghat::
: Jaime Wed Apr 08, 2020 - 15:46:22
That's good to know Chosenone. We will expect to not hear any rebuttals from you then concerning any upcoming criticisms of the UK, inane or otherwise. Lead the way! Thanks.
An air high five because of the coronas!
(https://media.giphy.com/media/uIu5b0YYpTPR6/giphy.gif)
: chosenone Wed Apr 08, 2020 - 15:42:29
I love my country very much, and support its leaders, but I feel I can support them and pray for them more than adequately without having to read, listen to or reply to rude and inane and baiting comments directed towards them.
Many of us here feel in a similar way. But what is good for the goose is not good for the gander. You have many times said horrible things about Trump.
: chosenone Wed Dec 23, 2015 - 06:57:25
I was talking about his wives. ::eek::
He is VERY disliked in the uk, probably because he is very rude, very arrogant, and cant seem to say a single thing without putting his foot in it. I also think it would be very dangerous to have such a man in a position of such importance.
Another post by you:
Quote from: chosenone on Thu Dec 10, 2015 - 12:28:57
If I were American I would be completely horrified at the thought of this awful, rude, arrogant man becoming president. As a citizen of the world I am horrified. The only reason he is allowed to get away with so many of the appalling things he has said and done is because he is a billionaire. He uses peoples fear and ignorance to get support, and sadly its working.
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/08/the-absolute-trumpest-121328
And another one accusing Trump of paying to kill his offspring without proof. Should have been a rules violation.
: chosenone Wed Jul 24, 2019 - 15:49:01
Oh I do, Trump has had numerous affairs, cheating on his wives, made appalling comments about women, is incredibly racist, and had even paid for his own babies to be killed. Charles had one affair and has now been married to that lady for many many years. Trump makes him look like a saint.
TC jabs at me for being a West Texas Baptist wannbe Church of Christer Neo Con, but I know it is mostly in good humor. Chosenone, you have misread him on hating the UK and the British people. You have misread TC pretty much as badly as you misread another male poster here, except oppositely.
I don't hate the UK. The UK is where a good portion of my ancestry comes from on both sides of my family.
Chosen, the post TC just made where you said horrible things about our leader and country proves one thing about both you and AVZ.
You can dish it out, but can't take it.
So if saying rude things about another person's country is "ungodly" - what does that make you and AVZ?
Look in the mirror.
: Texas Conservative Wed Apr 08, 2020 - 16:00:43
I don't hate the UK. The UK is where a good portion of my ancestry comes from on both sides of my family.
No one here hates the UK - as far as I know. That's where a lot of my ancestry comes from, too.
I'd also like to know, if saying something rude about another person's country indicates a hatred for that country, then by chosen's own words, she must hates the US.
: Jaime Wed Apr 08, 2020 - 15:59:21
TC jabs at me for being a West Texas Baptist wannbe Church of Christer Neo Con, but I know it is mostly in good humor. Chosenone, you have misread him on hating the UK and the British people. You hVe misread TC pretty much as badly as you misread another male poster here, except oppositely.
Yep
This is why I refrain from posting on such issues, because of godly people on BOTH sides. Good night~yes good night I'll be heading to bed in about two hours OR less. AVZ is a good man and I will not change from that position~even though I think he has allowed himself to get involved in something that takes away from his true calling. I'm reminded of the scripture that said: "I will HAVE MERCY and NOT sacrifice!
So you're saying there's a chance he will do the fair and Godly thing and tell us his country? Or is Jaime being totally unreasonable? Did you say you refrain from posting on these issues? Sounds like a Church of Christer "refraining" from beer!
All kidding aside Red, if I came on here and railed against Clemson and their football coach (admittedly the best program in the country) and refused to reveal who I was a fan of, would that be fair? (Even though my team Texas Tech sucks!)
: mommydi Wed Apr 08, 2020 - 16:13:35
No one here hates the UK - as far as I know. That's where a lot of my ancestry comes from, too.
I'd also like to know, if saying something rude about another person's country indicates a hatred for that country, then by chosen's own words, she must hates the US.
Over the years that has been the impression I have gotten.
: Rella Wed Apr 08, 2020 - 16:56:28
Over the years that has been the impression I have gotten.
You are wrong, but I am not going to name names.
: Jaime Wed Apr 08, 2020 - 15:59:21
TC jabs at me for being a West Texas Baptist wannbe Church of Christer Neo Con, but I know it is mostly in good humor. Chosenone, you have misread him on hating the UK and the British people. You have misread TC pretty much as badly as you misread another male poster here, except oppositely.
I disagree, its not hard to see when people have issues with the opposite sex or someone elses country/leaders.
Sometimes it IS hard for the person who perceives what you are talking about to see the truth. I've been wrong before, have you? People that used to give me heartburn, I think are probably the most honest and trustworthy here, and vice versa of course.
HERE ME SAY THIS, it's NOT the disagreement about my country or our leader that is the problem. I KNOW I have had more disagreement with TC over politics than pretty much anyone here over my time here. (just search "lesser of two evils" if you doubt it) The thing that torques me is being unfair about it. TC is blunt and plain spoken but never unfair in my opinion. TC and I have had many disagreements over his views of the Church of Christ as was the case with another poster you know of that left. The difference was the other guy's patent dishonesty. And for the record I didn't mute him either. I enjoyed sparring with him and exposing his dishonesty. If muting people that disagree with me the most was my modus operandi, I would have long ago muted Red. But he is fair. He might get up in my grill, but I have no need to mute him over that. I respect everything about AVZ and have enjoyed our back and forth, but I won't tolerate unfairness. If Admin thinks I overstepped, it will be reversed, no questions asked. You can accuse me of a lot of things maybe, but muting someone because they disagree with me is NOT one of them. I am way more passionate about salvation discussions and I have never even remotely considered muting anyone for simply disagreeing with me. Disagreement is my super food. Frankly I THRIVE on disagreement, most including my wife would say to a huge fault! Some people shy away from discussions like this particular thread, but I think it has been therapeutic, kinda like George Costanza's Dad's Festivus Holiday for the airing of grievances.
::smile:: (Seinfeld fans will understand)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1l8Eag9CAFk (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1l8Eag9CAFk)
I am 100% fine with good humoured banter, or discussions, or disagreements, but when it gets past that into clear goading and rudeness, or manipulation or passive aggressive behaviour, or attacking others or their countries or leaders for no reason and with no provocation, then no, that's not acceptable. That's why I ignore some posts and largely stay right off the political forum.
Good, then you shouldn't be bothered with the totally subjective issue of rudeness you might otherwise perceive in others if you ignore it and don't see it.
Could OUR perceptions of honesty and rudeness be akinned? I'm willing to explore that.
: Jaime Thu Apr 09, 2020 - 07:10:20
Good, then you shouldn't be bothered with the totally subjective issue of rudeness you might otherwise perceive in others.
No I am not bothered by others rudeness or goading, because I don't read their posts.
Well I do read dishonest posts. Can we talk about how our perception of dishonesty and rudeness might be akinned? I would like to hear your thoughts. Maybe we could have a Festivus moment!
::smile::
: chosenone Thu Apr 09, 2020 - 04:24:10
I disagree, its not hard to see when people have issues with the opposite sex or someone elses country/leaders.
When you jumped all over Trump from the get go about his "low morals" and us for supporting him because you claim he is unChristian..... YES YOU DID....and kept holding up your saintly Theresa May by comparison...
how can I possibly not find it amusing you have nothing to say when your own Boris Johnson is fathering a child out of wedlock. And I pray to God he does pull through this covid thing... we ALL are praying for that in the US...
Including the man you detest by the name of Donald Trump who multiple times over the past 2 days has been on air stating we all are praying for him...............
I want him to live and I want him to get married so that baby has a name.
You are a Christian... go back to Deuteronomy 23:2 and think about why that would have been put there in the first place.
I do not hate England. I do have ancertor who was in the church heirarchy back in the day....
But I will not allow my president be attacked for unwarranted reasons, especially when it is a case of the pot calling the kettle black
::eatingpopcorn:
There are some things about Trump that I can see irritate, but calling him a racist is totally unfounded and unwarranted and patently dishonest if not wildly uninformed. I will fight back on that and call that out as a lie everytime. People always refer to Charlottesville. He said their are good people on both sides. Their certainly was. Not everyone there protesting was a skinhead or Nazi. Some were there simply protesting the ridiculous tearing down of historical statues for the sake of preserving history. If I had been in the area I too would have been protesting the ripping down of historical statues. An honest person would readily admit that Trump has done many things for minorities especially in the realm of employment. He hasn't been the moral bastion all his life, but I am sure he has changed a lot, especially over the no brainer of abortion that geniuses and "moral giants" on the Democrat side can't get for some reason.
: chosenone Thu Apr 09, 2020 - 07:06:20
I am 100% fine with good humoured banter, or discussions, or disagreements, but when it gets past that into clear goading and rudeness, or manipulation or passive aggressive behaviour, or attacking others or their countries or leaders for no reason and with no provocation, then no, that's not acceptable. That's why I ignore some posts and largely stay right off the political forum.
The real problem is you are unable to admit that you have ever said or did anything wrong. The same applies to your responses about your leaders. You said Trump paid to kill his offspring without proof. But Theresa May had no faults and she was so great.
When a person cannot admit their shortcomings, and only find individuals worth talking to that are willing to blow smoke up their behinds, they tend to discount anyone personally who disagrees with them.
: Jaime Thu Apr 09, 2020 - 07:49:19
There are some things about Trump that I can see irritate, but calling him a racist is totally unfounded and unwarranted and patently dishonest if not wildly uninformed. I will fight back on that and call that out as a lie everytime. People always refer to Charlottesville. He said their are good people on both sides. Their certainly was. Not everyone there protesting was a skinhead or Nazi. Some were there simply protesting the ridiculous tearing down of historical statues for the sake of preserving history. If I had been in the area I too would hVe been protesting the ripping down of statues. An honest oerson would readily admit that Teump has done many things for minorities especially in the realm of employment. He hasn't been the moral bastion all his life, but I am sure he has changed a lot, especially over the no brainer of abortion that geniuses "moral giants" on the Democrat side can't get for some reason.
Jaime,
A slight off topic for a minute....
I heard him say something yesterday and it struck a chord in me... (I think yesterday, but time is blurring now)... though others will chime in that he is insincere....
No... that is not true.
A couple weeks back everyone was up in arms that he wanted the country, IF POSSIBLE, to be opened back up on Easter.
You would have thought he would need to declare Marshall law and machine guns be roaming the streets if he did that to listen to the MSM.
He commented about how he had wanted the country opened back up on Easter because of the "importance" of that day.
He said something about it being important to those in the room... (reporters)... or many of them and if not to them it is very important to him. And let it go.
My take is Christ gave us all the opportunity for a new beginning culminating on Easter. That was what he was referencing.
Does he worship as you and I? Not exactly... but it is where his heart is and for a leader who is the most powerful in the world, he is never shy about his faith.
Heck you and I see things differently.
Yes Rella, we disagreed recently over whether we should focus on the virus or the economy or both. We were both very passionate and opinionated. And I didn't even want to mute you once. Who'da thunk it?
: Jaime Thu Apr 09, 2020 - 08:25:14
Yes Rella, we disagreed recently over whether we should focus on the virus or the economy or both. We were both very passionate and opinionated. And I didn't even want to mute you once. Who'da thunk it?
::tippinghat::
: chosenone Thu Apr 09, 2020 - 07:11:45
No I am not bothered by others rudeness or goading, because I don't read their posts.
Then how do you know rude posts are being posted if you're not reading them? rofl
Why even comment if you're so out of the loop you don't know what's being posted? ::noworries::
GIRL, you're not fooling anyone when you claim you ignore certain members, cause you turn around and respond to their comments - indirectly, in other posts! rofl You've done it right here in this thread! You're not fooling anyone, chosen. ::sarcasm::
You honestly remind me of the little kid who sanctimoniously tattles on her sibling for not closing her eyes during prayer. ::doh:: ::smile::
: Jaime Thu Apr 09, 2020 - 08:25:14
And I didn't even want to mute you once. Who'da thunk it?
LOL... rofl Perhaps, just sayin, you thought I would get miffed and cclose my account. ::shrug::
My trouble is... admittedly... I am 100% addicted ::frustrated:: to Grace Centered...... but when I get carried over the top
I have been trying to report myself before any of you has to give me a warning.... trying to make your job easier rofl
: Rella Thu Apr 09, 2020 - 10:06:54
I have been trying to report myself before any of you has to give me a warning.... trying to make your job easier rofl
That always cracks me up when you do that. I just have one question. You always publicly report yourself to Alan - not the other mods. Is Alan the most lenient with you or the most brutal so you're going right for the "rip the bandaid off" experience?
(https://media.giphy.com/media/1itJk0YC7kUYF6yv70/giphy.gif)
: mommydi Thu Apr 09, 2020 - 10:19:56
That always cracks me up when you do that. I just have one question. You always publicly report yourself to Alan - not the other mods. Is Alan the most lenient with you or the most brutal so you're going right for the "rip the bandaid off" experience?
(https://media.giphy.com/media/1itJk0YC7kUYF6yv70/giphy.gif)
Alan, brutal??? Naw... he is a pussy cat.
But in truth, he is the one who has had me tone myself down when necessary. So I just figure he always is keeping an eye on me???
: Rella Thu Apr 09, 2020 - 10:36:53
Alan, brutal??? Naw... he is a pussy cat.
But in truth, he is the one who has had me tone myself down when necessary. So I just figure he always is keeping an eye on me???
Awww, that's sweet. He's never been brutal with me, either, and I'm sure I've given him a good run for his money.. ::blushing:: ::droppingjaw:: ::eek::
Which reminds me of something-
AVZ, if you're reading, I've been muted in the past.
It's not the end of the world. Just try to do better. You actually have to
try to do better, though. ::smile::
: Jaime Wed Apr 08, 2020 - 14:18:56
I agree Mommydi. Red, I am more than happy to un-mute AVZ if he plays fair and allows others the opportunity to point out faults in HIS country. Fairness does make a difference ABSOLUTELY! Red, I have probably disagreed more with few people here more than you, and I ALWAYS consider you fair and I hope you do me. I have offered AVZ an out if he feels he would be oppressed or persecuted by someone, his countrymen or others, no response. There is NO reason to not be fair and offer that bit of information. We are not trying ro pinpoint him for a cruise missile strike. His disagreement with me or his dislike of Trump is not the issue. Godly is as Godly DOES and being and acting fairly IS The demonstration of Godliness.
Carey, how in the name of Waylon Jennings is AVZs location NOT relevant when criticizing someone else's country? The other party deserves the basic fairness in knowing what country to research and compare and offer counter criticisms in return. If that is stifled, all we have is just pointless, malicious one sided trolling. It's akin to keeping men out of women's forums and vice versa. It's only fair.
Waylon Jennings? Giving you a plus one for the reference. Don't quite recall how it came up, but in a discussion with a family friend I mentioned it would be nice to hear our should've been famous, guitar and vocal star at church. He is uniquely qualified for Jennings genre, and when he does Cash, you would swear Johnny was there. I said that the congregation might be a bit shocked at such a tribute. My friend said, Waylon himself would probably more shocked. Struck me as hilarious at the time. Never got to hear Warren do Jennings in church, but at our Stampede breakfast, our worship team becomes a country and western band out in the parking lot. I was right Warren does a mean Walyon Jennings.
As for your question, I don't know what I can add to my argument, I would just be repeating myself which ain't gonna win anybody over that it hasn't already.
I have said what I feel I needed to say, please allow me to politely bow out of the discussion.
Any decision is above my pay grade, thanks for the opportunity to voice my concerns, what ever decision is made, you will not hear a
(https://food.fnr.sndimg.com/content/dam/images/food/fullset/2012/2/28/3/FNM_040112-Piece-Of-Cake-001_s4x3.jpg.rend.hgtvcom.826.620.suffix/1382541324873.jpeg)
out of me.
Kindest regards,
Carey.
In all honesty, I don't see that AVZ broke any rules here. Where is the rule that says we must give out where we live if we don't want to? That we must all agree with the majority of members here who support a particular leader?
: chosenone Thu Apr 09, 2020 - 15:35:12
In all honesty, I don't see that AVZ broke any rules here. Where is the rule that says we must give out where we live if we don't want to? That we must all agree with the majority of members here who support a particular leader?
You typically never see any wrongdoing on your part or any others you deem worthy of your support. I have yet to see any contrition for the slander/libel you engaged in against Trump for saying he paid to kill his offspring without proof.
: Carey Thu Apr 09, 2020 - 11:09:19
(https://food.fnr.sndimg.com/content/dam/images/food/fullset/2012/2/28/3/FNM_040112-Piece-Of-Cake-001_s4x3.jpg.rend.hgtvcom.826.620.suffix/1382541324873.jpeg)
PEEPS... Wonderful......They deserve their own thread......... ::playingguitar::
: chosenone Thu Apr 09, 2020 - 15:35:12
In all honesty, I don't see that AVZ broke any rules here.
Of course you don't. ::smile::
AVZ does your bidding.
If every time AVZ visited the political forum, he ripped your country and people to shreds, you'd sing a different tune, missy, and you know it. You'd tell him how "ungodly" he is. As long as he's doing it to those of us in the US, you "just don't see it."
Chosenone for the fourth time, it is about fairness. Did I accidentally click on a foreign language here? AVZ doesn't have to agree with me at all. But to BE FAIR he needs to offer up his country for equal scrutiny. No rule was contemplated for this type of arrogant disregard for fairness.
One more time S L O W L Y . He doesn't have to agree with me or anyone else.
I can explain this as many times as you chose to ignore it.
: mommydi Thu Apr 09, 2020 - 15:57:26
Of course you don't. ::smile::
AVZ does your bidding.
If every time AVZ visited the political forum, he ripped your country and people to shreds, you'd sing a different tune, missy, and you know it. You'd tell him how "ungodly" he is. As long as he's doing it to those of us in the US, you "just don't see it."
Yes she does. She just agrees with him therefore he does no wrong.
: Rella Thu Apr 09, 2020 - 10:36:53
Alan, brutal??? Naw... he is a pussy cat.
But in truth, he is the one who has had me tone myself down when necessary. So I just figure he always is keeping an eye on me???
Just watch your step young lady. ::crackup::
Carey,
When I said, "What in the name of Waylon Jennings......" it had nothing to do with Waylon Jennings. It is like saying, "What in the name of all that is Holy.......", that has nothing whatsoever to do with the name of all that is Holy. It is a way of saying, "what the heck are you saying?" Probably not something Canadians do!
::smile::
Quote from: Rella on Yesterday at 10:36:53
Alan, brutal??? Naw... he is a pussy cat.
But in truth, he is the one who has had me tone myself down when necessary. So I just figure he always is keeping an eye on me???
Just watch your step young lady. ::crackup::
::drama:: ::peeking:: ::salute::( from the US to Canada)