"Healing the Culture" by Robert Spitzer.
He covers 6000 years of secular philosophy in the introduction and 1st chapter. And, he's so clear that I can almost quote him from memory.
For example, he describes the basis of our modern problems as "metaphysical materialism," meaning that society only values material gain and sensations (he calls these and has devalued or completely discounted non-tangibles, such as love, contribution, and God.
Since the intangibles are not valued, our fellow humans are devalued if they don't contribute to the tangible gains that most are looking for. So, non-valuable humans are devalued further and their very "personhood" is doubted. So, the attitudes about abortion and euthanasia are reconsidered in the public sphere until they are accepted. Once they are accepted, they must be legalized. Once they are legal, they become expected, at least on a certain level. (Why should society have to pay for "unwanted" or "defective" children? And then "rights" cease being inalienable rights, and become something bestowed by society.
Life is further devalued, until the rights and personhood of the the people with more and more marginal materialistic value are in question, etc.
Wait until you see how he explains "personhood"!
I would say that F. LaGard Smith puts himself in a tough place. On one side traditionalists will hate the book because he is basically showing how a lot of traditions are probably not like the early church. On the other side of the discussion he comes across as someone who is just trying to add a new pattern to correct one that has failed.
I enjoyed the book because it shows that the emperor has no clothes in regards to pattern theology, I didn't because it seemed to want to bind a new pattern on me, I got rid of one, don't need another.
I have been reading the writings of the early church up to about 325 a.d. Justin the Martyr is a good read. I find most of it on the internet. Have read several fred Peatross books, have read Crux of the Matter, a lot of Philip Yancey. The Worldly Church was a interesting read. Also some books on the Church of God-Anderson, Indiana.
You people have interesting discussions, thanks for allowing me to step in.
Julie--the back cover of Come to the Table features a blurb from William Willimon and identifies him as the author of Sunday Dinner. I hope that means the book's still in print. I'll have to check it out. Thanks.
Currently I am reading three books that I would recommend to all of you. One is "Paul" by Chuck Swindoll. The second is "Wild at Heart" by John Eldredge (which I am leading a small group of High School students through), and the last is "Shaping the Spiritual Life of Students" by Richard Dunn. They are all worth reading.
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (winky @ Oct. 07 2002,12:25)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I'm re-reading [/I]Mere Christianity. It's so logical and convincing, I like to refresh myself on the basics of why Christianity makes so much sense.
Have any of you read Deadline or Dominion by Randy Alcorn? Those are great Christian fiction books that give a really thought-provoking look at spiritual warfare and what the after-life (both Heaven and Hell) might be like, all weaved into a really interesting fictional story. I just couldn't put them down.
Also in the recent past I've read The Crux of the Matter, Traveling Light, part of God's Holy Fire and Jabez: A Novel, all of which were very good.
This is a great thread. I love to have new ideas to add to my reading list.[/quote]
Frank J Paretti is another Christian author of fiction whose mission is realized through his books. We are able to find him is Spanish as well.
English books are difficult to find here so whenever someone leaves they usually donate their library to those who stay. Suffice to say that I am currently receiving a good number of books.
One question; is this western writer, Louis La Amour really that popular or could it just be the yanks that seem to travel here? I do hope I don't offend when I confess that I usually pass his books on rather quickly unless I am so desperate that I have taken to reading the ingredients of the imported products on the market shelves, (You really don't survive on some of that, that, that ...... Stuff? It is a wonder you don't explode!! )
Pretty self explanatory...What are you reading (or have read lately) that is worth passing on to others?
Main interest is in two categories: 1) RM authors who are grace centered, and 2) The best from "outside the tribe" of the RM. However, I really just want to know what you're reading. Any takers?
OD
I recently finished the following ones
Crux of the Matter
This was an interesting book. I certainly felt like the authors were describing me when they talked about those willing to leave or consider leaving the RM wing in search of connection and experience with Jehovah God. I'll post more a more detailed review later
The Great Investment:Faith, Family,& Finance. T.D. Jakes Good introduction to principles we all should keep in mind. There were some verses that I considered stretched
Basic Christianity. John Stott
Absolutely wonderful. Should be read and re-read
Nicholas.....saved by grace
I could not resist jumping into this conversation on two fronts:
1. I have recently read The Crux of the Matter and am reading God's Holy Fire, the first two books in a series by ACU press. Although both have weaknesses, they are worth reading for their outlook on where the restoration movement is today and our view of scripture.
I have also read Hughes, Reviving the Ancient Faith and thought it was a well done look at the history fo the restoration movement.
I most highly recommend Allen, Participating in God's Life, recently released by New Leaf Books. It is a great look ot the path the restoration movement took with regard to the Holy Spirit in the 19th Century and the crossroads we face with regard to the same issue today. I just ordered Hicks, Come to the Table and look forward with great anticipation to reading it. I recommend you order anything New Leaf publishes directly through their toll free number. I have done so twice and both times gotten to speak to Leaonard Allen personally.
If you are interested in the Lords Supper, I recommend "Communings in the Sanctuary" by Robert Richardson, a series of meditations on the Lord's Supper by Richardson who was a the personal physician to Alexander Campbell and a Professor at Behtany College in the !800s. It is available in re-print form from New Leaf [but is also available on-line at Hans Rollman's web site].
2. As to the discussion of "Radical Restoration" after reviewing Smith's comments in an interview in the Christian Chronicle [which has been run twice now, I decided I have better ways to spend my reading time and book money, so I neither have nor have read the book. In the interview he said two things that I have peviously described as "nitwittery." First he championed 4 part harmony as part of who we are. If that is even one of the significant distinctions of us as a group, we need some serious introspection. Second, he urged an abandonment of "youth ministry." The only way I can take that is a suggestion that we abandon any and all ministry to our youth. We may have differing views as to how to go about it, but his suggestion in my view will perpetuate a system where we continue to lose more of our youth than we keep. I also find it amusing that he makes these comments as a man who at about 50 has only recently been married and has no children. He is not engaging in any serious scholarship, he is merely speculating. As I said, I have better things to read, better books to buy.
kanham, I love what you said about not needing another pattern being bound to you--AMEN to that! Our nature a lot of times does that, gets freed from one chain just to put on another. Freedom is so much better.
Maurine
Becoming One by Joe Beam and Equal to Serve by Gretchen Graebelin Hull.
(How's that for a good Christian woman?)
My reading is so eclectic!!
I just finished Christian Attitudes towards War & Peace by Roland Bainton. I Now start on The Reformation of the Sixteenth Century by the same author.
For pleasure I am rereading Desire of the Everlasting Hills by Thomas Cahill. This man is so talented, I would stand in line to read his laundry lists!!
My Irish history studies is currently absorbed in For the Cause of Liberty by Terry Golway and my USA history is represented by America's Ceaser by Greg Durand. And yes I am still studying my written Spanish and combining my Venezuelan history in one by reading Seis Temas de Historia Venezuela Ildefonso Mendez Salcedo.
I have a paper to prepare on the travels of Paul for my degree pursuit and as well I must prepare for an exam on the cause and effects of gnosticism on the early church.
I also am spending hours building bookshelves!!
Ya mean besides the Bible? :)
Have recently finished, refering back to, or skimming-prior-to-deeper-reading, the following:
Daring to Dance With God, Jeff Walling;
The Courage To Be Christian, [? will insert author when I remember him!];
The Evidence for For Christ, Lee Strobel;
Take God At His Word/Experience the Power of Giving, Dr. Kregg Hood;
Holy and Reverend Is His Name, Mack Lyon;
Eat Right 4 Your Type, Dr. Peter J. D'Adamo/Catherine Whitney;
and several sci fi works, some by various authors in the Star Trek universe; others by one of my favorite authors, C.J. Cherryh, and at least one yearly re-read of Tolkein's Hobbit/LOTR cycle;
also, World Magazine and Women's World Magazine...
and then, of course, GCM!
I might shake things up a bit by these comments but I couldn't hold myself back from commenting. So, here it goes...those of you who read F. Lagard Smith's book, Radical Restoration...do you really think that his approach is a healthy one for the church of Christ? What is F. Lagard Smith afraid of?...that we might come to a greater realization of the power of the Spirit? that our worship might be more emotionally demonstrative and those that think might have an impact on the church and its' functions? Sorry this sounds so angry but I can't stomach so much of the stuff I hear him say or write. Please tell me what you find appealing about his writings. only by grace, Julie
I will try to explain what I meant by comments but this will be brief as I should be heading to work soon. I believe F. Lagard Smith would like for us to go back the church of the 1950s where men had all the power and I don't believe that restoring 1st century Christianity should be our goal. We should be thinking and reexamining where we are and what needs to be done to bring the lost to the feet of Jesus. Smith seems to be afraid of the bigger churches who are influencing the church of Christ brotherhood and he is afraid of youth and their influence on the church. He is the Rush Limbaugh of the church of Christ and has very pointedly criticized those who are doing good and I believe he needs to examine his motives. I am just surprised that so many still hang on his every word. I don't mean to be harsh but only to state my feelings. I feel that he has been divisive and hurtful. Yes, we should hear all sides but only to the point that it is beneficial. I feel his book Radical Restoration is a knee jerk response to the worship renewal that has been going on in churches of Christ across the nation. I will ask again...what is he afraid of? only by grace, Julie
Julie and Mike,
I have to agree with you both on LaGard. I did not like his tone in Who is My Brother. I feel he is really conservative at heart. I have not read Radical Restoration yet, I have put off reading due to my unhappiness with his other book. (The only oone of his I have read). I did not like the way he seemed to "put some down". I felt I had to go all the way to the end of the book to "get" what he was saying. I was hoping Radical Restoration would be better. I agree with some he has to say, but I disagree with some also. It is really just his tone that bothers me. Is Radical Restoration a better book? I want to read it, but not if it is like the Brother book.
Old dad,
What is The Rest of the Gospel by Dan Stone about? Is it easily accessible? Any christian bookstore or where on the internet?
Susie
I've read Jim McGuiggan's "Celebrating the Wrath of God" and John Mark Hicks "Come to the Table." Both are rich in material, especially the use of the Hebrew scriptures. Anything these two write is worth purchaseing.
George
I will finish Founding Brothers tonight. Then it is on to Walking the Bible: A Journey by Land Through the Five Books of Moses. Bruce Feiler is Jewish and he writes about walking through different sites mentioned in the books of Moses.
It's funny but Amazon.com is offering a bundle deal if you buy it and John Adams. I snagged Walking at Booksamillion because it was on sale in hardback for $5.97.
My plans are to re-read Your God is too Small by J.B. Phillips and to wade into Stephen Ambrose's Band of Brothers before much longer.
Lacy,
A book I think you might enjoy is Thomas C. Oden's After Modernity ... What? (Zondervan, 1990), a revision and reworking of his Agenda For Theology, 1979,
He was an extreme liberal for decades, of the ilk of liberation and other fad theologies. His insightful and scathing critique of modernity is priceless and very different from anything written by conservatives who have never been there done that.
Read a little about it here:
http://www.goodnewsmag.org/library/articles/oden-jf93.htm (http://www.goodnewsmag.org/library/articles/oden-jf93.htm)
I lucked up on the book for a buck at at a used book sale.
Is anyone familiar with John Piper? At church tonight I was given a copy of A Godward Life, and it looks like it will be good.
The back flap says he is a Baptist pastor, and has written several other books.
OD
I'm just about to finish The Great Rescue by Edward Fudge. Fantastic book!
His discussion on baptism as a non-saving yet essential can make your head hurt but the second or third time through the little light starts clicking on. To boil it down.... his argument is that faith does not save, Christ saves. Salvation is extended to all but only those with faith are saved. Baptism does not save because those without faith can be and are baptized. Those with faith though are baptized and receive remission of sins.
I really have enjoyed his discussion of Jesus as the "covenant man" who did live the law perfectly. Just as Adam representing all men brought sin into the world, Jesus representing all mankind lived perfectly.
He paints the picture of us in heaven and upon being asked if we lived up to what was expected us that we bow our heads in shame and point to Jesus saying "No but he did it for me".
Man, I can't believe I had to go so far back to find this thread! I didn't realize it had been more than a month since anyone had posted here.
I'm just posting to say that I'm finally reading john Adams not that it's out in paperback. I'm just a bit more than 100 pages in so far. Very vivid picture of Revolutionary times. As much good as I've heard about this and I'm still impressed.
btw, I've had people recommending The Road Less Travelled for a long, long time now. I'm going to have to read it soon.
Celebration of Discipline by Richard Foster is superb. I think it is the best book written on the spiritual disciplines.
If you like Foster, check out the following books by my favorite author, Dallas Willard:
Hearing God
The Divine Conspiracy
Renovation of the Heart.
Mike
Hey,
Come to the Table by John Mark Hicks
The Jesus I Knever Knew by Phillip Yancey
Radical Restoration by F. Lagard Smith
They are all great books. I hope you get a chance to read them sometime.
Gilbert
Thanks for the replies so far. Added several books to my "to-be-read" list, particularly those from the RM. Have to admit, I've not kept up with RM authors outside of Lucado for quite some time. My list below reflects that...
Since the first of the year I have read (or re-read):
What God Wishes Christians Knew About Christianity by Bill Gillham. Terrible title, challenging book.
The Rest of the Gospel by Dan Stone, with Greg Smith. Best book I've read in 10 years. The section titled "Double Cross" is worth twice the price of the book.
The Handbook to Happiness by Charles Solomon. First time I'd read this older book. Great counseling resource.
Grace Works by Dudley Hall. A re-read, but worth every second.
Living with Jesus Today by Juan Carlos Ortiz. Owned this book for almost 20 years, but was never able to get past the first 30 or 40 pages until this past winter. Then I read the whole thing in one night. Simple and fascinating.
Lifetime Guarantee by Bill Gillham. Read this one every year. Revolutionized my life and ministry.
The Saving Life of Christ by Maj. W. Ian Thomas. A classic from the early sixties. The major has been a tremendous influence on the "grace teachers" in all Christian streams.
So there it is, something to offend almost everyone :p
OD
I do not have access to books, as far as ordering new ones, but Julie piqued my interest in F. Lagard, so I looked him up and found a transcript on his views of radical restoration. What I read sounded so great, so much of what God has shown me. And yes, the institution will not accept this kind of change, but Christ's church (us) can if we stop doing things they way they've always been done. Didn't read too much on the youth thing, but what I read I agree with. I think the program has taken over relationship with each other. I didn't read anything about the acappella issue (which is no issue in God's eyes) so I cannot comment on that, but it is important that we are all flawed and wrong about some things to keep us from becoming conceited. I'm sure none of us agree with everything we read that someone has written, as I think it should be that way. But there is a lot of good to be gleaned from a lot of sources.
Maurine
Two really RM character books, I'm to read, soon enough:
"Barton Stone" (2001) and "Walter Scott: A 19th-Century Evangelical" w/ essays by scholars of all three branches of the Movement.
And, for those who give a hoot, though written for mainline Prot. congos, I'd recommend "Cracking your Congregation's Code"--for those of us trying to revitalize congregations, it's a keeper! :p
Smith comes across to me as someone who has some definite convictions about the Lord and His church, but who is willing to point out that yes, the emperor is naked...
I found nothing but loving disagreement in his 'open letter' to Max Lucado. Does he come across as swell-headed or arrogant because he dares to disagree with Saint Max? I don't know.
Maybe the perfect balance would be to alternate reading: one Lucado book, one Smith book, one Lucado, another Smith...
The author I couldn't recall was Mike Nappa, who wrote "The Courage To Be Christian". The dustjacket says things like "Entering a Life of Spiritual Passion" and "Christianity Isn't For Wimps".
I'm reading "Fresh Wind, Fresh Fire" by Jim Cymbala. Also, "A Case for Faith" by Lee Stroebel. Highly recommend both. Mostly "Fresh Wind..." - it will bless and break your heart for serving God.
Janine,
Loved your examples! As you know, we are supposed to be talking to the unsaved, untaught and uncertain, but some tradition or taboo gets hooked in our minds and embedded in our congregations which causes us to talk and talk about it among ourselves instead. Everyone who becomes a member has to know about it, so we have "taboo classes" in which we initiate those coming from the denominations. Before long it is disseminated widely and becomes, not only a major topic of conversation, but a major tenet of our faith. A taboo first becomes a matter of faith, and when it is sufficiently established, it becomes a law. Eventually we live under law and have forgotten, if we ever knew, about gtace--all because we were talking to ourselves about unessentials and not to those who need to hear us talk about the things that really matter. This is an example of a legalistic church talking to itself.
But in the case I cited in the earlier post regarding a liberal denomination, the latest philosophy captures the people's minds and through this same process becomes the theology of that denomination. They have Bible classes alright, but the Bible is interpreted in the light of their new-found belief, hence, losing its value and effectiveness. It is at this point that leaders say, as one recently did, "We don't need expository sermons, what we ned is need centered sermons." So they have "need centered' classes, using some liberal book and casually refer to the Bible just to sure they are properly interpreting it in the light of their human help.
The legalist church doesn't go outside its circle but brings people in, as a spider does, but a liberal church removes their identifying circle and tries to bring everyone else in, making a bigger circle. But people who live in circles, be they small or large, talk in circles and not to the "squares" who live outside their circles.
We have "the ladie's circle," church circles, and now, I suppose, this board as a circle. I have finished my round, so I'll see you the next time around. But meanwhile, let's see if we can't get acquainted with some "squares" and talk to them about Jesus. It might help if we listen as well as talk.
Lacy
Am reading Difficult Conversations by a group of authors from Harvard. Interesting book on communication. Also, enjoying Cahill's How the Irish Saved Civilization, which is almost a "must" read for history fans. Also am finding Martin Seligman's Learned Optimism somewhat of an interesting re-read.
I'm re-reading [/I]Mere Christianity. It's so logical and convincing, I like to refresh myself on the basics of why Christianity makes so much sense.
Have any of you read Deadline or Dominion by Randy Alcorn? Those are great Christian fiction books that give a really thought-provoking look at spiritual warfare and what the after-life (both Heaven and Hell) might be like, all weaved into a really interesting fictional story. I just couldn't put them down.
Also in the recent past I've read The Crux of the Matter, Traveling Light, part of God's Holy Fire and Jabez: A Novel, all of which were very good.
This is a great thread. I love to have new ideas to add to my reading list.
This is an author I want to read!
I've heard that "Celebration of Discipline" by Foster is good.
Found a used hardcover 20th anniversary edition online, cost me $8.48 total. Better than $22 plus tax from the local bookstore. Just hope it's not too over my head. Anyone here read it? Thoughts?
Saw a book not long ago by somebody McNutt - CoC preacher, I think -- semi-autobiographical, but also included little inspirational and humorous pieces. All I recall of the title is the last part ...
"... and Biblical Briefs" -- I wondered if it was about underwear in Bible times.
:D
I like F. LaGarde Smith, too. And Jim McGuiggan.
Hmmm. . . in the last week or two:
Discovering our Roots by Leonard Allen & Richard Hughes. Rereading bits and pieces, really.
Thy Kingship Come by David Mains. This was a little companion book for the "Chapel of the Air" radio broadcast from back when I worked in Christian radio. I've always liked the way Mains approached the kingdom in this book, with a focus on the kingship and the rule of God.
Founding Brothers by Joseph Ellis. Okay, so he's not great at autobiography; his history's still first-rate.
julie danley:
I agree with you regarding F. LaGard Smith. It may be that it's just his style or tone of writing that irritates me. I do admire his scholarship and his zeal, but he comes across as arrogant to me. I remember being irritated at the tone of his open letter to Max Lucado in Who Is My Brother?
I don't intend this to mean anything specific about Lucado. Although he is a gifted poetic writer and a man of great influence, he is certainly not a deep theological author.
I guess it may just be that Smith seems more interested in restoration than I am. A funny thing to say for someone who grew up in Churches of Christ. In my spiritual pilgrimmage, I am more concerned with things like knowing God, true discipleship, and love and unity among all believers in Jesus. Smith seems to be a lot more interested in form than I am.
Concerning II Cor. 4:7, Dallas Willard said that both we, as individuals, and our churches, are "vessels" that contain the "heavenly treasure" of Jesus Christ. In Renovation of the Heart, p.243, he says:
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]The groups and times where individual and social transformation unto Christlikeness have manifestly taken place and have shaken the human order to its foundations all verify this completely: the early Christians, the early monastics, the early Franciscans or Dominicans, the early Quakers and early Methodists, for example. Note how in all these cases the word "early" has to be used this is because the "vessel" that emerges in the course of a particular outbreak of radical discipleship gradually overwhelms the heavenly "treasure" it initially served to convey. That is a primary satanic strategy in defeating the cause of Christ on earth. Then we have yet another tradition on exhibit in the museum of Christian history.[/quote]
I'm more interested in and committed to Jesus, while Smith (albeit only from his books, as I've never met him) seems to be more interested in the Church of Christ exhibit in the museum of Christian history.
Thanks, everyone, for listening to my rantings.
Mike
:D
Don't get mad at me ... but I have been given a brand new first edition hardback copy of Christopher Moore's new book, Lamb: The Gospel According to Biff, Christ's Childhood Pal.
:0
I'll let you know .... :)
patriciaredstone,
I read Lamb a few weeks back. Tends toward the sacreligious, but never discounts Jesus' Messiah-hood. It's definitely interesting to see how a non-Christian views Jesus.
Church That Flies is a pretty great. Tim has some strong insights. Most people that have read it have said that he's put into words what many of us have been thinking about church, that being form vs. function, where function is more important than form in most progressive churches and form is more important than function in most conservative churches.
A better book is Distant Presence also by Woodroof. It's a historical fiction book based on Philippians. It's great both as a straight read, but also a Bible study.
Highly, highly recommended.
Finished Founding Brothers this morning. It made me want to read more deeply on the lives of the men portrayed, so I think I'll be patrolling used book stores and flea markets this weekend looking for the Adams book. Now I can start on John Mark Hicks' book--I didn't want to begin reading it until I was able to concentrate on it fully.
"...they, like we, talk to themselves a lot." -- Lacy
Meaning, they write up a lot of drivel aimed at others within their denomination, "preaching to the choir", so to speak, rather than writing for unbelievers?
Or, meaning that they may be two fries short of a Happy Meal? :p
I'd also like to go back and read Mere Christianity and then read some of the books by CS Lewis I've never got to. Ah, so many books, so little time.
Why does that remind me of Burgess Meredith and The Twilight Zone?
I recently finished The Reconciled Life, A Critical Theory of Counseling, by R. Paul Olson. Dr. Olson is a professor of psychology, and has some academic background in theology. He is a liberal Christian (I hope I don't regret saying that!).
The main point of the book is Olson's thesis that reconciliation is the main goal of psychological counseling. He attempts to construct a workable, practical dialogue between psychology and Christianity.
I'm now reading Jesus and the Gospels, by Craig L. Blomberg. This is basically a textbook survrying the gospels, the historical and cultural backgrounds, and the life and teachings of Jesus. So far, I'm really enjoying it.
Mike
:D
I am presently reading "Early Christians Speak: Faith and Life in the First Three Christians (3rd edition)" by Everett Ferguson. Extremely revealing in the schools of thought by early Christian leaders/writers (2nd - 4th centuries). Published by ACU Press. I found it at the ACU Bookstore for $11.95, which was cheaper than the other places I looked.
I am reading a book by Stever Farrar that I think is called, "Get in the Ark". It's a book where he talks about the coming judgment on America for her sins, and he encourages people to get int he Ark of Jesus Christ because he will be the only safe harbor during the judgment.
It is pretty good.
Kevin
Hello!
I must encourage you to read:
Fresh Wind, Fresh Fire
Fresh Faith
Fresh Power
3 book series by Jim Cymbala
These came at a time when I felt I was drowning in a stagnet pool of emotionless, empty "religion". As my personal bible study became intense in an effort for "more", the Holy Spirit was trully revealing to me that He was the "more" I was looking for, and He is what my congregation is missing out on. (and so many other congregations) Another Gift sent that we refuse to receive. These are a must read.
Two other favorites are probably familiar to most:
Forgiven Forever Joe Beam
Revolutionary Grace and the Holy Spirit Jay Guin
Great post! I'm looking for some good reading!
GGGG US
Hey good topic!
Where Is God When It Hurts ~ Philip Yancey
A Bend In the Road ~ Dr. David Jeremiah
Beginner's Guide to Spiritual Warfare ~ Neil Anderson
Next on the to read list:
The Case for Christ
The Jesus I Never Knew
It is so good to have honest discussion. I don't mind if you disagree with me as long as you listen.
Janine, you may have described me accurately but keep in mind that the Spirit also lives in me...that flaming liberal... and in F. Lagard Smith. I have to remind myself of that when I am angered by someone's comments.
Mike, thanks for letting me know that we were close to the same page.
Please let's continue with honest conversation and I promise I will work on being more diplomatic and gentle in my posts. grace, Julie
Ok, I am buying Come To The Table. I have been convinced.
Susie
This is off topic.
I've been having some trouble posting and want to see if it's in just one forum or all of them.
Sorry for the interuption, keep the book suggestions coming!
OD
The main thing I liked about Founding Brothers was that central theme of the people who were there, who wrote the documents, fought the war, and debated the issues being unable to achieve harmony on just what it was they were trying to accomplish.
It was really a 1780 to 1800 version of Acts. Is this message of Christ just for the Jews? Is it for them plus Gentiles willing to become this new version of Jew? Is it is a smaller core message that is for all, free of Jewishness? Those early church arguments were so similar to the debate of just how is this new government supposed to carry out the ideals of 1776?
Kanham
You mentioned reading some books from the Church of God, Anderson, IN. This was the church I affiliated with in 1975 after I left the coC. I was truly blesses by their great humns and the books their early leaders had written about the Holy Spirit, Sanctification and unity. Their official title was "The Church of God Reformation Movement," and they had a lot in common with the Restoratioan Movement of which I had been a part. I became a pastor of this church until I retired in '96. It was ten years or more before I realized that the present leaders--authors, pastors and especially professors at the School of Theology--were as liberal as the United Methodist or Presbyterian churches. Their emphases now is on the Ecumenical Movement and not the Reformation Movement.
More than a year ago I began writing a book, as I mentioned in another post, in which I have a chapter on "Restoration and the Church of Christ," and another on "Reformation and the Church of God." I show that both Movements have failed in their original intent, one becoming a legalistic denomination and the other becoming a liberal denomination, rather than movements.
In a paper I received from a School of Theology, Professor of missions, Douglas E. Welch, he had this to say about what "The Word of the Lord," means as it is used in the Bible and what it means today, after he says that our view is "too narrow and restricted:
"The word of the Lord is what God is doing in historical terms...It is God's word, not ours and indeed it may come, not from the historical past, but from the historical future, not a word about the future, but a word out of the future, a new and unexpected word--but always a liberative word." The rejection of the written word "from the historical past" is pure modernism; the term "liberative word" is the heart of liberation theology, which has become the accepted theology of the Anderson School of Theology.
Welch continues, "At this point, I will suggest--very briefly--three representative historical events which I believe are the word of the Lord to us today.
"First, the rise in our time of the theology of liberation, especially that exemplified by the basic ecclesial community movement of the Catholic Church in Latin America...We have, through this movement, learned to think more biblically about the Kingdom of God and God's justice, discovering that it is often in the vexing seculat that God is at work. And we have learned a new way of doing (emphases added) biblical hermeneutics, or reading the Bible.
"Secondly, the civil rights movement. Like the question of poverty, injustice, and oppression, the question of racism ought to have been a question addressed in a creative and liberating manner in Christian communities...Without the word of the Lord in the form of the civil rights movement, we would not yet perhaps been aware of the sinfulness of our basic social institutions.
"Thirdly, the feminist movement." What Welch says about the liberation of the poor and minority races, in this liberation theology article, is also applicable to the liberation of women.
The new way of "doing theology" is to "reinterpret the [biblical event] in light of each new contingent situation." This evolving and diverse theology is not from Scripture but from evolving events and movements, and is called "contextual theology," the political, economical and socail contexts, and not the biblical context, determining the meaning of Scripture.
Welch concludes this article by saying (paraphrased), Neither what Jesus and His apostles said nor what the early Christians experienced is the word of the Lord for us--no matter that it is written in the Bible--but only that which results from the events and movements of our time, such as the above three movements.
I have more than eighty double spaced pages in my manuscript but I'll stop here with this post. Again I say, "We'll just have to eat the grass and spit out the sticks."
Lacy
p.s. You will be blessed by reading the old coG books, which are written from the Weslyan Holiness perspective and are heavy on sanctification and "sinless perfection," but I fear that most of their modern books are mostly sticks--hardly enough grass to justify the effort. And they, like we, talk to themselves a lot.
If you are interested in psychology and christianity you might check out "The Road Less Traveled" by M. Scott Peck
Please forgive my italics issues!
I'm currently reading a few thought-provoking books about restoring New Testament Christianity and challenging CoC traditions:
Spilt Grape Juice, by Mike Root
Interesting title, but awesome book! Mike Root offers a fresh look at what worship means in the Scriptures - not confined to a certain place at a certain time. Also addresses the assembling of the early Christians vs. the assemblies we have today.
Radical Restoration, by F. LaGard Smith
Great book on restoring 1st Century principles and practices. It's also very challenging: how close to New Testament Christianity are we? Though I don't agree with everything LaGard writes, his book is really helping me to "think outside the box" and look outside of tradition.
Next in line for me to read:
12 Steps for the Recovering Pharisee (like me), by John Fischer
A very humbling book, from what I've heard. A good heart-examiner. My husband thinks it's the best book he's ever read!
Tradition, Opinion, and Truth: The Emerging Church of Christ, by Fred Peatross
I've started reading this one and like it so far. He makes a statement or two I don't agree with (or see the logic in), but he targets legalism, tradition, hermeneutics, etc. in this book.
Happy reading!
kimmie
I am enjoying two books by Marva Dawn. I have not finished them.
A Royal "Waste" of Time: The Splendor of Worshiping God and Being Church for the World
and
Is It A Lost Cause?: Having the Heart of God for the Church's Children
Hey Julie,
I listed Radical Restoration as a book to look into. It doesn't mean I totally agree with everything in it. I like the idea behind the book. If people are really serious on restoring the "form" of the NT church then we need to rethink some things. I've always thought that and like that he has written a book with that idea in mind. I don't always agree with his ideas though. I felt he was pretty harsh on the youth. He almost sounded bitter toward youth groups. That is just one example though. There were things I liked and things I didn't like, but I still think it is worth looking into.
Gilbert
Not having investigated fully (just one article) does not make me very knowledgeable. I do not like harsh stances,also, even in myself. I believe Christ's church is and has always been restored and always will be. How can it not be that way? It is a personal walk with Him and religiosity always stifles our efforts to be what He would have us be. Our views of restoring an institution by our calculations is not restoring the church. God restores, we just follow and hopefully will just be in a place God can use us with others. I think Lagard has some truth from what I have read, but we cannot change anything, we can just show others truth and wait for God to open their eyes. "I will build my church and the gates of Hades will NOT overcome it." I do not care what the organization subscribes to--the church is us.
Maurine
Has anyone read Diogenes Allen on Temptation? I recommend it.
Keener's Paul, Women and Wives is worth a read.
Elie Wiesel's Sages and Dreamers introduces us to a world most of us are unfamiliar with, at least I was.
Martin Seligmann's Learned Optimism helped me understand why I get so negative at times.
Ralph Martin's The Spirit is the Congregation should be on your short list.
Lois Cheney has published a new book, and I have read it, but I do not have the title, sorry!
Hi,
If anyone is interested, we have a completely free e-book that is given to our visitors that I wrote: Life Stages: Growing Toward Spiritual Maturity You can download it by CLICKING HERE (http://www.coonrapidschristian.org)
Barry
I'm finally getting around to "Free In Christ" by Cecil Hooks.
I finished The Names of Jesus by Rubel Shelly last night and started on Come to the Table by John Mark Hicks.
I give high recomendation to The Names of Jesus. It is an exploration of different names used to identify Jesus and in turn helps reveal more of the nature of our Savior. I will admit to being a bit partial to Shelly. He is a great writer, not because he uses great words but great ideas.
Very accessible book for both the new and mature Christian.
Books on the go in my life:
I am in the middle of "Two Views of Hell" - Edward Fudge and Robert Peterson. It is kind of a debate style of book. I have not gotten far enough yet to tell you my definitive once for all beliefs, but it is certainly interesting so far. Both writers make a case for why this is an important topic to be clear on at the beginning.
I am also in the middle of "Radical Restoration" F LaGard Smith. It is an interesting book. I do not agree with all that I have read so far, but it does challenge me both when I agree and when I disagree to think about what I believe and what I value about the Restoration Movement.
My wife finished a book and handed it to me and told me to read it. "Daring to Dance with God" by Jeff Walling. One of the interesting parts of the book is on the back cover. There is an endorsement from Rick Warren and one from F LaGard Smith. I have read the chapter on Death (Save the Last Dance for Me) - he makes the statement that makes such great sense to me, "We were not made for death". That is why there is such pain when people die, it is unnatural. We were not meant to go through it, but we sinned and now death is in the world. God's perfect plan did not include that, his plan b through z is helping us overcome it.
I also picked up from the church library, but haven't opened it yet, "Prepare to Answer" by Rubel Shelly. Looks interesting.
Most of what I read now has been written by Theo LeSeig. A People House, Ten Apples Up On Top, Oh the Thinks You Can Think ...
I am surprised my posts don't rhyme more.
Eric
I almost started a new thread and elected to bump this one up.
I finished Walking the Bible: A Journey by Land Through the Five Books of Moses while I was on vacation. It was interesting to get the author's perspective on the Holy Land.
I've misplaced Stephen Ambrose's Band of Brothers so I read Wild Blue by Ambrose instead. It's short but an interesting look at B-24 crews mainly focusing on George McGovern.
I started Rubel Shelly's The Names of Jesus today and should be done fairly quickly. So far its been pretty good (he sometimes gets a little too academic for my taste). Glad I started on it today though, as I got into the chapter "Lamb of God" I was called and asked to lead the communion devotional for the morning and our sermon is on forgiveness so I was already in the right mind-set to get prepared.
Next up will probably be Shelly and Mike Cope's book What Would Jesus Do Today?
[!--EDIT|Arkstfan|Aug. 10 2002,11:32--]
Morris,
I read your exerpt from Oden's book and thought it was great. I'll check it out at Zondervans. I was there in the fifties and sisties when all of those liberal birds were teaching heir "fads," so I identified completely with Oden. Harvy Cox wrote his Secular City and two decades later wrote Religion In the Secular City, just as Bonhoffer had wished for a secular interpretation of the Bible.
If it wasn't so tragic, it would be humorous, the way the uppity professors pick up on a fad--whether it be the philosophy of Marx or Schleirmocher, which has already made the rounds and done its dastardly work, but has been revived just in time for them to learn it and pass it on to their students. An then the little brainwashed know-it-alls return to the churches to corrupt them as well.
Thanks for the post.
Lacy
I have recently finished reading:
God's Holy Fire, by Kenneth Cukrowski, Mark Hamilton, & James W. Thompson
Conflict and Community in Corinth, by Ben Witherington III
Grace Unknown, by R. C. Sproul
False Intimacy, by Harry Schaumburg
How People Grow, by Henry Cloud & John Townsend
Evangelism & the Sovereignty of God, by J. I. Packer
Renovation of the Heart, by Dallas Willard
All of these are very good, but the first and last books listed are great.
Mike
:D
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--],I might shake things up a bit by these comments but I couldn't hold myself back from commenting. So, here it goes...those of you who read F. Lagard Smith's book, Radical Restoration...do you really think that his approach is a healthy one for the church of Christ? What is F. Lagard Smith afraid of?...that we might come to a greater realization of the power of the Spirit? that our worship might be more emotionally demonstrative and those that think might have an impact on the church and its' functions? Sorry this sounds so angry but I can't stomach so much of the stuff I hear him say or write. Please tell me what you find appealing about his writings. only by grace, Julie[/quote]
Hey Julie,
I will try to address your questions. Is Radical Restoration healthy? Some of it is, however, in reality I doubt any churches of Christ will put much into practice from this as its non traditional. I think there were some interesting ideas in the book, ie house churches, emphasis on Lords Supper, that are good. However, the institutionalized church wont implement much of this as too many would be pushed beyond their comfort zones. I think it is good to think about how we do church. Thats why I think this is healthy. Its good to think about how we do things. Too many in the cofc think we've got it all figured out yet we can lose sight of the importance if we arent continually self examining ourselves against scripture.
On your emotionally demonstrative comment, he seemed to argue in the book that that would be easier to accomplish in the house church environment than church buildings. He said things could be more spontanious in that environment and seems to get at that.
What is Lagard afraid of? I dont know what you mean. He does guard some traditions like 4 part acappella while seems to let others go.
If Lagard makes you angry dont read him. I read a broad range of things not just what I already think. I want to hear a broad range of views so perhaps I approach reading differently than you. I cant imagine getting angry over an author like Lagard. I might think him or her wrong, but again I guess I just approach differing opinions differently.
To me many of Lagard's books do stimulate thinking and even if you dont agree with everything thats ok. I liked many of his books on moral issues such as When Choice Becomes God dealing with abortion and Sodoms Second Coming about the gay rights movement.
Rocketman
julie danley:
I really, really need to get my hands on more F. Lagarde Smith!! From what I've read so far, if you look at it from the "lost-in-the-50's" point of view, he does look like he wants to be more grace-centered and less stagnant. His stuff that I've read would look positively "liberal" to some of our brethren, and you feel it's calcified and legalistic... wow, the stuffy "conservative" side of our group would likely find you an absolutely flamingly incomprehensible liberal...
I heard some brethren branding Reuel Lemmons a liberal... when I met him and heard him preach a meeting, he came across to me as hopelessly conservative... I was a new Christian then... all I can remember from his lesson almost 20 years later is that he preached against wearing blue jeans to the assembly (and that was in the 80's, when jeans were neat and un-holey...)
So much is so subjective...
Visited the OVC Bookstore today and picked up Come to the Table by John Mark Hicks. I've heard good things about this, and I'm looking forward to reading it. I've been reading as much as I can on the Lord's Supper the last couple of months, as I seem to have aquired a permanant position "presiding at the table".
I think the reason LaGard is so controversial is that he is just as frustrated and dissillusioned as the rest of us. The difference is that he writes.
Books, Books, and more books. It seems that I will never read all the books! But I will sure try :)
What have I been reading lately? I am currently reading David McCullough's rich biography of John Adams. I am reading (with my wife) Harold Shank's new book Children Mean the World to God.
Other works that I recently finished include:
William Sheehan's Epic Moon: A History of Lunar Exploration in the Age of the Telescope. (Great Book).
Benson Bobrick's As Wide as the Waters: The Story of the English Bible and the Revolution it Inspired. This is a very readable presentation of the development of the KJV and its impact on democracy. I think Alister McGrath's In The Beginning: The Story of the King James Bible is a superior book however.
I recently read John Mark Hicks book Come to the Table and LaGard Smith's Radical Restoration. Hicks, my major professor, has written the best book on communion in the history of the Stone-Campbell Movement. Smith, well honestly, I think this is his worst book to date. Perhaps we could discuss that book in the Book Reviews section if some one wants to really get into it.
I have two new book in the wings that I am waiting to get into. The first is a new -- and significant -- book edited by William Baker called Evangelicalism and The Stone-Campbell Movement. The work is published by InterVarsity Press. Scholars from the Independent Christian and Churches of Christ as well as four eminent evangelical scholars (Wayne House, Craig Bloomberg, Stan Grenz and Mark Knoll are all contributers). The book focuses on conversion theology, the Holy Spirit and the doctrine of the church -- historic areas of difference between "restorationists" and evangelicals of a Calvinistic bent. The book is significant because this is the first time this kind of "brotherly" dialogue has taken place. I recommend the book to all.
The other book is also brand new. It is edited by Michael Casey and Douglas Foster and is titled The Stone-Campbell Movement: An International Religious Tradition (University of Tennessee Press). The work is a compilation of 26 essays most previously published though in obscure journals. It is also a significant work.
I would also like to mention Leonard Allen's outstanding book Participating In God's Life. This was a spiritual feast.
His Mark +
Bobby Valentine
[a href=\"mailto:bvalentine@dixie-net.com\"]bvalentine@dixie-net.com[/a]
O.K., it's been a couple of weeks. What are you reading, now?
I typically keep about 4-5 books going at once - a couple by the bed, at least one in the briefcase for downtime at work, and a couple in "places" where some folks read the newspaper. :) I like to take my time with a book, but I've managed to finish a couple in the past week...
Alive for the First Time by David Needham is a sequel to Birthright which was the book other than the Bible itself that moved me toward grace-centeredness. I found Alive... for a couple of dollars on a bargain shelf at a Family Bookstore, so I'm sure it's still available.
A Divine Invitation by Steve McVey is a wonderful teaching on the furious love God has for His children. McVey is the author of Grace Walk, Grace Rules, and Grace Land.
OD
There were some particular passages in the last couple of chapters that made me think about party disputes within Christianity. The difficulty of humans implementing lofty ideals is a familiar one. I've been considering writing a longer post on this subject, and may do so tonight or tomorrow when I have more time.
Thanks Arkstfan for reviving this thread. I had almost forgotten it existed...
I typically keep three or four books going at once. Lately I've been into...
Birthright by David Needham, a theology professor from Oregon. An older book focusing on Christian identity and the quest for meaning.
2000 Years of Charismatic Christianity by Eddie Hyatt. A look at church history from a Pentecostal/Charismatic perspective.
Ava's Man by Rick Bragg. A memoir from this Pulitzer prize winner about the grandfather he never knew. Not a "Christian" book per se, but it is one of the best books I have ever read.
OD
Anyone read C.S. Lewis' The Dark Tower? Interdimensional travel, that creepy Stingingman, shudder...
The last 2 books I have read recently(christian) is
"How to Build a Church" by Bob Russell (good practical ideas)
"A Church That Flies" by Tim Woodruff (excellent)
"Forgiven Forever" by Joe Beam is one of my absolute favorites. I bought about 3 yrs. ago and have reread it many times. I also love "Daring to Dance" by Jeff Walling.
I need to buy "Radical Restoration" by F. LaGard-Smith. Is it good?
Susie
Marc, I have not read John Mark Hicks book...Come to the Table but attended his class on that subject at the Zoe conference in Nashville last fall. John Mark and I grew up together...neighboring congregations whose youth did a great deal together. The class in Nashville was a wonderful experience. He has so much insight. Can I suggest another book about communion? It is old but powerful and I don't know if it is still in print...William Willimon's Sunday Dinner. You will never think about it the same again. grace, Julie
I've been circling McCullough's John Adams book in bookstores for some time now, but every time I look at the price I think "well, maybe it will eventually be out in softcover". I think, though, that my current reading of Founding Brothers is going to force me to give in and buy the book.
I just got through reading Gary DeMar's End Times Fiction. I think it pretty much tore up the "Left Behind" series of books that are so popular these days.
I'm reading Barabbas by Par Lagerkvist, Vintage Publishing. It was first released in 1951 and has been recently released in a new translation. With the fashionable trend in biblical fiction I feel the need to read some of the old biblical fiction to compare. Barrabbas is a beautiful book! Like Victor Hugo, Lagerkvist (nobel Prize for Literature in 1951) fleshes out both body and soul with graceful nuance. It is short. Only about 150 pages. I plan to finish it today.
I'm in the middle of "Fresh Wind Fresh Fire" by Jim Cymbala. Its very good. Very convicting as to the importance of prayer.
I recently read both the "The Church That Flies" by Tim Woodroof and "Radical Restoration" by LaGard Smith. I thought they were both very interesting, good books.
Woodroof and Smith are cousins as referenced by Smith in the book and Smith indicates they disagree in their approach to the changes needed in the church. But in my opinion they are much closer to agreement than they realize. They both present some compelling arguments.
I have read much of F. Lagard Smith's Radiacal Restoration and I like it. I have not finished it because I misplaced it somewhere and I am still looking for it.
I have read Sodom's Second Coming, Who is My Brother? and Crystal Lies.
What I like about Lagard is his points are well constructed with much evidence of Bible study.
MaSouth
Marc I am like you about the price. But I was given John Adams by John Mark Hicks so I did not have to buy it. As for Ellis' Founding Brothers that is an outstanding read as well. I believe he won a pulitzer for that work.
Another great book that is now in paper back is Jacques Barzun's From Dawn to Decadence: 500 Years of Western Cultural Life, 1500 to Present. This is an incredibly rich work.
His Mark +
Bobby Valentine
[a href=\"mailto:bvalentine@dixie-net.com\"]bvalentine@dixie-net.com[/a]
Ark,
What Would Jesus Do Today? is a very good book. You will enjoy it. I read it sometime back and need to reread it. It doesn't get too academic.
Susie
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Guest @ Oct. 08 2002,10:19)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I've heard that "Celebration of Discipline" by Foster is good.
Found a used hardcover 20th anniversary edition online, cost me $8.48 total. Better than $22 plus tax from the local bookstore. Just hope it's not too over my head. Anyone here read it? Thoughts?
Saw a book not long ago by somebody McNutt - CoC preacher, I think -- semi-autobiographical, but also included little inspirational and humorous pieces. All I recall of the title is the last part ...
"... and Biblical Briefs" -- I wondered if it was about underwear in Bible times.
:D[/quote]
JTH,
You should be able to read Foster with no trouble. Enjoy!
McNutt is an oldie! Is it J. B. McNutt? I think he wrote sermon outline books.