Proof 1
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
When does the Son of man return? When He redeemed the world.
When did Jesus redeem the world? At His resurrection.
I don't see how there can be any argument against this but I'm sure there will be. ::smile::
Rob,
I can assure you that no matter your choice of translation to guide you the resurrection could not have been the 2nd coming.
First and most important is your use of Luke
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Please take your time to slowly read the following.
As Matthew 28 begins, we see Mary Magdelene and "the other Mary" coming to look at Jesus's grave. Remember, they were present when the stone was rolled in front of the tomb (Matthew 27:60–61) and, remembering Jesus's promise to rise (Matthew 16:21), they came back. They had to be quite shocked.... and even more so when they saw
An "angel of the Lord" had rolled the stone away, causing a "severe earthquake" (Matthew 28:2). The soldiers guarding the tomb also quaked, and they were as good as dead (Matthew 28:4).
The angel comforted the women and answered their (unspoken) questions plainly: Jesus is not here, he is risen.
He did not say look up and see him descend
Note how the angel speaks about the resurrection to the women. He invites them to see the empty tomb. He also reminds them that Jesus had predicted this himself (Matthew 28:6).
The angel dispatches the women to announce the resurrection to the disciples, and Jesus meets the women on the road. His encounter with them is the key to this passage.
So they departed quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to tell his disciples. And behold, Jesus met them and said, "Greetings!" And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him. Then Jesus said to them, "Do not be afraid; go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee, and there they will see me." (Matthew 28:8–10)
Let's look at Mark.. the entire story is quite different then Mathew yet they were sent on their way just the same to tell the disciples.
5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted. 6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.
7 But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you. 8 And they went out quickly, and fled from the sepulchre; for they trembled and were amazed: neither said they any thing to any man; for they were afraid.
Again... they saw no one descending in the clouds... nor would they
John 20: KJV Offers the evidence that you are wrong. See vs 14 below....
20 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
2 Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.
3 Peter therefore went forth, and that other disciple, and came to the sepulchre.
4 So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre.
5 And he stooping down, and looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in.
6 Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,
7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.
8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.
9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.
10 Then the disciples went away again unto their own home.
11 But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, and looked into the sepulchre,
12 And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.
13 And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him.
14 And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.
15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her.
19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
If Jesus had not yet ascended, he could not have returned in the clouds.
: Rella Sat Oct 23, 2021 - 08:47:04
Rob,
I can assure you that no matter your choice of translation to guide you the resurrection could not have been the 2nd coming.
If you don't like the KJV then here it is from the NIV and NASB... they all say the same thing.
27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near
27 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
When you see those things happen, then know that you're and everyone else on the planet's REDEMPTION is coming soon. I'm not being facetious here but when do you think Jesus redeems the world? Seriously do you think the redemption of the world takes place somewhere other than the cross?
: Rella Sat Oct 23, 2021 - 08:47:04
First and most important is your use of Luke
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Please take your time to slowly read the following.
As Matthew 28 begins, we see Mary Magdelene and "the other Mary" coming to look at Jesus's grave. Remember, they were present when the stone was rolled in front of the tomb (Matthew 27:60–61) and, remembering Jesus's promise to rise (Matthew 16:21), they came back. They had to be quite shocked.... and even more so when they saw
An "angel of the Lord" had rolled the stone away, causing a "severe earthquake" (Matthew 28:2). The soldiers guarding the tomb also quaked, and they were as good as dead (Matthew 28:4).
The angel comforted the women and answered their (unspoken) questions plainly: Jesus is not here, he is risen.
He did not say look up and see him descend
Note how the angel speaks about the resurrection to the women. He invites them to see the empty tomb. He also reminds them that Jesus had predicted this himself (Matthew 28:6).
The angel dispatches the women to announce the resurrection to the disciples, and Jesus meets the women on the road. His encounter with them is the key to this passage.
So they departed quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to tell his disciples. And behold, Jesus met them and said, "Greetings!" And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him. Then Jesus said to them, "Do not be afraid; go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee, and there they will see me." (Matthew 28:8–10)
Let's look at Mark.. the entire story is quite different then Mathew yet they were sent on their way just the same to tell the disciples.
5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted. 6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.
7 But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you. 8 And they went out quickly, and fled from the sepulchre; for they trembled and were amazed: neither said they any thing to any man; for they were afraid.
Again... they saw no one descending in the clouds... nor would they
John 20: KJV Offers the evidence that you are wrong. See vs 14 below....
20 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
2 Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.
3 Peter therefore went forth, and that other disciple, and came to the sepulchre.
4 So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre.
5 And he stooping down, and looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in.
6 Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,
7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.
8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.
9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.
10 Then the disciples went away again unto their own home.
11 But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, and looked into the sepulchre,
12 And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.
13 And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him.
14 And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.
15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her.
19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
If Jesus had not yet ascended, he could not have returned in the clouds.[/size]
I carefully read everything you wrote there and the thing that stood out to me was the verse you highlighted in red about Jesus not ascending to the Father.
We know that at some point between that day and the day that Jesus told Thomas to put his finger in his side, Jesus both ascended to the Father and descended back to earth. So there's a whole series of events that aren't even mentioned in the bible.
What I find most fascinating about your response is how you completely ignore the simplest and easiest to understand point that Matthew 24 takes place at the time when Jesus redeemed the world on the cross and you focus in on some obscure argument that nobody can prove.
: Rob Sat Oct 23, 2021 - 18:10:07
If you don't like the KJV then here it is from the NIV and NASB... they all say the same thing.
27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near
27 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
When you see those things happen, then know that you're and everyone else on the planet's REDEMPTION is coming soon. I'm not being facetious here but when do you think Jesus redeems the world? Seriously do you think the redemption of the world takes place somewhere other than the cross?
I carefully read everything you wrote there and the thing that stood out to me was the verse you highlighted in red about Jesus not ascending to the Father.
We know that at some point between that day and the day that Jesus told Thomas to put his finger in his side, Jesus both ascended to the Father and descended back to earth. So there's a whole series of events that aren't even mentioned in the bible.
What I find most fascinating about your response is how you completely ignore the simplest and easiest to understand point that Matthew 24 takes place at the time when Jesus redeemed the world on the cross and you focus in on some obscure argument that nobody can prove.
Setting aside your redemption comments for a moment....
Tell me specifically when this happened and who witnessed it and what historian wrote about it.
27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
For all translations I have read read as if this is a future event, not yet happened.
AS does Mark 13:26
...25the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.' 26 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27And He will send out the angels to gather His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven....
And no one has recorded any of this either.
: Rella Sat Oct 23, 2021 - 18:57:22
Setting aside your redemption comments for a moment....
Tell me specifically when this happened and who witnessed it and what historian wrote about it.
27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
For all translations I have read read as if this is a future event, not yet happened.
AS does Mark 13:26
...25the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.' 26 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27And He will send out the angels to gather His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven....
And no one has recorded any of this either.
The sun went dark over the entire world for 3 hours on the day Jesus was crucified. Dead people came out of their graves and walked the streets of Jerusalem during that time yet none of that is recorded in history. I don't think God wanted it to be recorded because he obviously wanted the 2nd coming to be vague and only discerned from the bible.
: Rob Sat Oct 23, 2021 - 19:56:38
The sun went dark over the entire world for 3 hours on the day Jesus was crucified.
Dead people came out of their graves and walked the streets of Jerusalem during that time yet none of that is recorded in history.
Wrong, see below.
I don't think God wanted it to be recorded because he obviously wanted the 2nd coming to be vague and only discerned from the bible.
This is possibly the oddest thought of any part of the bible I have ever heard. Especially in light that the bible is supposed to be the inspire word of God. If He wanted it vague, why mention it at all?
Your timing is off. It IS NOT during those 3 hours.
IT IS in Mathew 27
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. (Jesus died)
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; (Earthquake happened)
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, (Then the dead arose)
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
(After the resurrection)[/color]
@RellaI'd like to stick with the original proof that I posted.
The culmination of Luke 21 is the 2nd coming of Christ and the redemption of mankind. How is that not referring to the resurrection?
: Rob Sat Oct 23, 2021 - 22:08:58
@Rella
I'd like to stick with the original proof that I posted.
::headscratch:: ::doh:: ::pondering:: Alright... I don't want to confuse you any more then you already are, but need to comment also on things you are suggesting.
The culmination of Luke 21 is the 2nd coming of Christ and the redemption of mankind. How is that not referring to the resurrection?
@Rob,
You are free to believe whatever you read but you are believing your errors....
YOU said....
Jesus both ascended to the Father and descended back to earth. So there's a whole series of events that aren't even mentioned in the bible.?????????
How in the world are we to know this happened? HOW DO YOU know what happened?
You also said
When did Jesus redeem the world? At His resurrection.
I don't see how there can be any argument against this but I'm sure there will be.
Totally irrelevant to His second coming.
This.... "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?" (John 11:25–26)
His resurrection... period.... and our faith/belief.... fulfills the redemption. NOT a second return.
You are mixing up the two.
Webster tells us that
Definition of redeem
transitive verb
1a: to buy back : REPURCHASE
b: to get or win back
The word redeem also means "to buy out." ( As some would say) The term was used specifically in reference to the purchase of a slave's freedom. The application of this term to Christ's death on the cross is quite telling. If we are "redeemed," then our prior condition was one of slavery. God has purchased our freedom, and we are no longer in bondage to sin or to the Old Testament law. This metaphorical use of "redemption" is the teaching of Galatians 3:13 and 4:5.
So when Jesus gave His life and shed His blood for you, me and all believers of this fact... that was our redemption.
BUT Jesus did not need to have come a 2nd time already for this part of our eternity.
And certainly not in secret.
: Rella Sun Oct 24, 2021 - 07:52:23
@Rob,
You are free to believe whatever you read but you are believing your errors....
YOU said....
Jesus both ascended to the Father and descended back to earth. So there's a whole series of events that aren't even mentioned in the bible.?????????
How in the world are we to know this happened? HOW DO YOU know what happened?
Mary couldn't touch Jesus because he had not ascended to the Father yet so Jesus told her to go tell the disciples "I ascend to my Father". Jesus ascended, apparently that day, then 8 days later he returned and allowed Thomas to touch him. Neither his ascension nor return during that 8 day period is recorded in the bible.
: Rella Sun Oct 24, 2021 - 07:52:23
You also said
When did Jesus redeem the world? At His resurrection.
I don't see how there can be any argument against this but I'm sure there will be.
Totally irrelevant to His second coming.
This.... "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?" (John 11:25–26)
His resurrection... period.... and our faith/belief.... fulfills the redemption. NOT a second return.
I don't know why you are arguing against this, you are agreeing that redemption happened at the cross.
: Rella Sun Oct 24, 2021 - 07:52:23
You are mixing up the two.
Webster tells us that
Definition of redeem
transitive verb
1a: to buy back : REPURCHASE
b: to get or win back
The word redeem also means "to buy out." ( As some would say) The term was used specifically in reference to the purchase of a slave's freedom. The application of this term to Christ's death on the cross is quite telling. If we are "redeemed," then our prior condition was one of slavery. God has purchased our freedom, and we are no longer in bondage to sin or to the Old Testament law. This metaphorical use of "redemption" is the teaching of Galatians 3:13 and 4:5.
So when Jesus gave His life and shed His blood for you, me and all believers of this fact... that was our redemption.
Here again you are agreeing that redemption happened at the cross.
: Rella Sun Oct 24, 2021 - 07:52:23
BUT Jesus did not need to have come a 2nd time already for this part of our eternity.
And certainly not in secret.[/size]
Jesus came as babe through Mary. He died and left this world and literally came back to earth a 2nd time at his resurrection and it wasn't a secret to anyone alive at that time. In fact the bible says that every eye saw him, even those who pierced him as was prophesied in Zechariah. Which will be the next irrefutable proof the resurrection was the second coming.
(Zec 12:10) And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Proof 2
(Rev 1:7) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
It should be evident that the 2nd coming of Jesus happened when those that pierced him were present. But I'm pretty sure that won't be enough for most futurists. So we can go to the prophecy in Zechariah to get more details.
(Zec 12:10) And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
From here we see that at the time when Jesus comes with the clouds, his 2nd coming, that is the time when the spirit of grace was poured out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem. When was the spirit of grace was poured out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem? At the death and resurrection of Christ.
When did those who pierced Jesus look upon him? Definitely limited to their life time.
When did the followers of Jesus morn for him? From the time he was taken until they saw him resurrected.
But here is the most compelling piece of evidence.
Joh 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
Joh 19:37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.
John tells us that Zechariah 12:10 was fulfilled at the cross.
: Rob Sun Oct 24, 2021 - 09:54:10
Mary couldn't touch Jesus because he had not ascended to the Father yet so Jesus told her to go tell the disciples "I ascend to my Father". Jesus ascended, apparently that day, then 8 days later he returned and allowed Thomas to touch him. Neither his ascension nor return during that 8 day period is recorded in the bible. I don't know why you are arguing against this, you are agreeing that redemption happened at the cross.Here again you are agreeing that redemption happened at the cross.Jesus came as babe through Mary. He died and left this world and literally came back to earth a 2nd time at his resurrection and it wasn't a secret to anyone alive at that time. In fact the bible says that every eye saw him, even those who pierced him as was prophesied in Zechariah. Which will be the next irrefutable proof the resurrection was the second coming.
(Zec 12:10) And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
No... I am not arguing against the redemption end of things...just Jesus coming in the clouds at that time.
He did not have his 2nd coming at that time. Not the one that counts... and by that I mean the Revelation one. And certainly not secretly.
: Rella Sun Oct 24, 2021 - 12:03:00
No... I am not arguing against the redemption end of things...just Jesus coming in the clouds at that time.
He did not have his 2nd coming at that time. Not the one that counts... and by that I mean the Revelation one. And certainly not secretly.
There's only one 2nd coming and that's the point I'm trying to make. The 2nd coming in Revelation is the same 2nd coming that we've been discussing here.
Except no coming in the clouds in the resurrection version. Missed it by THAT much!
: Jaime Sun Oct 24, 2021 - 13:33:22
Except no coming in the clouds in the resurrection version. Missed it by THAT much!
Sure there were clouds at the resurrection.
Heb_12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a
cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Don't forget the Old Testament saints that Hebrews is talking about in that verse rose with Christ.
Edit: I forgot to add this verse. Those ten thousands in Jude are the same one's Hebrews 12 is talking about.... the OT saints.
Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
: Rob Sun Oct 24, 2021 - 13:30:02
There's only one 2nd coming and that's the point I'm trying to make. The 2nd coming in Revelation is the same 2nd coming that we've been discussing here.
Jaime's point cannot be ignored.
Except no coming in the clouds in the resurrection version. Missed it by THAT much!
But you missed it by more then that.
What we commonly refer to as Armaghedon
The prayers of the Jews are answered as Jesus Christ will return to earth to defeat the armies of the Antichrist at Petra/Bozrah and begin the final portions of the campaign. He will return to earth in the clouds, in the same manner in which He departed. At His second coming, Jesus Christ, the Messiah, will enter battle with the Antichrist's forces, fighting him without human assistance, with the word of His mouth. He will quickly and easily defeat them. According to Jude 14-15 and Revelation 19:11-16, Jesus will return with an angelic army. (Isaiah 34:1-7; 63:1-6; ; Micah 2:12-13)
Rob... I had thought you were a preterist, but you must be a pre-preterist cause you leave out so much of their also unprovable beliefs ::eek::
No Rob. No cigar. The cloud of witnesses in Hebrews was not the Lord coming in a cloud.
: Jaime Sun Oct 24, 2021 - 17:57:29
No Rob. No cigar. The cloud of witnesses in Hebrews was not the Lord coming in a cloud.
I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with. Are you saying the Old Testament saints didn't rise and ascend with Christ or are you saying the Old Testament saints aren't a cloud?
My disagreement is simple, Jesus did not return in the clouds at his resurrection. The cloud of witnesses is not the clouds of Jesus second return. Sorry. Continue on if you want, without me.
Rob, in one respect you are correct. The Matthew 27:52-53 saints were the 144,000 "First-fruits" (along with "Christ the First-fruits") who were said to be "redeemed from the earth" and "redeemed from among men" in Revelation 14. That group of 144,000 First-fruits, Matthew 27 saints were given their redemption experience "AFTER Christ's resurrection" on that same day when Christ arose. So that resurrection day of Christ did see the fulfillment of a remnant of the dead receiving the redemption of their bodies out of the grave in a glorified condition.
Yet for the saints of the early church in Romans 8:23, Paul said these were still waiting in "earnest expectation" for the same kind of redemption of their bodies. They were waiting with anticipating hope for that redemption to come in their future. They had not seen it yet, but they were with patience waiting for it when Christ would return at His second coming again in the clouds - of the AIR - when He would meet them as resurrected saints in the skies, as Paul predicted in I Thess. 4.
: 3 Resurrections Mon Oct 25, 2021 - 00:16:58
Rob, in one respect you are correct. The Matthew 27:52-53 saints were the 144,000 "First-fruits" (along with "Christ the First-fruits") who were said to be "redeemed from the earth" and "redeemed from among men" in Revelation 14. That group of 144,000 First-fruits, Matthew 27 saints were given their redemption experience "AFTER Christ's resurrection" on that same day when Christ arose. So that resurrection day of Christ did see the fulfillment of a remnant of the dead receiving the redemption of their bodies out of the grave in a glorified condition.
Yet for the saints of the early church in Romans 8:23, Paul said these were still waiting in "earnest expectation" for the same kind of redemption of their bodies. They were waiting with anticipating hope for that redemption to come in their future. They had not seen it yet, but they were with patience waiting for it when Christ would return at His second coming again in the clouds - of the AIR - when He would meet them as resurrected saints in the skies, as Paul predicted in I Thess. 4.
A couple things are wrong with that idea 3 R's. The biggest issue is that the OT saints could not be made perfect without us.
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us,
that they without us should not be made perfect.
Also, another issue was that Jesus was telling the disciples standing right in front of him that THEIR redemption draweth nigh. And their redemption along with everybody else's redemption did come at the cross.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up,
and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh
Goodie, goodie, goodie. ::clappingoverhead::
3R and you Rob can carry on and correct each other as you wish.
Neither will be alone.
Have fun. ::tippinghat::
Always glad to offer you some entertainment Rella...wouldn't want you to get bored ::nodding::
For Rob, yes, I'm aware of that verse. But remember; that verse was written AFTER the Matthew 27 resurrected saints were already resurrected. Not all the OT saints were raised to incorruptible life in Matthew 27:52-53 - only 144,000 of those First-fruits. The rest of the OT saints were still in the grave, waiting to be "made perfect" along with the the next scheduled resurrection.
::alert:: A lot of biblical gymnastics will be on display ::alert:: I'll watch for now.
Act 1:1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: 3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: 4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. 6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. 9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
At the end of the forty days Jesus appeared and instructed the disciples, He was taken up and "a cloud received him out of their sight." They that witnessed were not the cloud, rather they witnessed the cloud that received Him. At the end of these forty days when Jesus was taken up, the witnesses were told that Jesus would come again in like manner. The devil is only in the details, because the details reveal the truth and expose his errors. There is nothing that can be done for those who choose to believe something, and then make the scriptures fit what they have chosen believe, rather than studying scripture itself as the final word concerning their beliefs. The scriptures themselves address this problem of humanity over and again. Which is why it clearly states that we will all be judged by them, not what so very many have used them to support.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
May God grant us all the grace and wisdom to submit to the truths of his word over and above our own ideas and pride.
: 3 Resurrections Mon Oct 25, 2021 - 07:29:53
Always glad to offer you some entertainment Rella...wouldn't want you to get bored ::nodding::
For Rob, yes, I'm aware of that verse. But remember; that verse was written AFTER the Matthew 27 resurrected saints were already resurrected. Not all the OT saints were raised to incorruptible life in Matthew 27:52-53 - only 144,000 of those First-fruits. The rest of the OT saints were still in the grave, waiting to be "made perfect" along with the the next scheduled resurrection.
Not sure where you get the "next scheduled resurrection" from. There are only two resurrections, one of the just and one of the unjust and both happened on the Last Day. The Last Day Jesus was in "the heart of the earth" is when everyone that had died prior to Christ was either made perfect or condemned. That topic should be a thread of it's own.
I would like to hear your view of how Jesus telling the disciples that THEIR redemption draweth nigh doesn't apply to the them.
: Amo Mon Oct 25, 2021 - 08:04:11
Act 1:1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: 3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: 4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. 6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. 9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
At the end of the forty days Jesus appeared and instructed the disciples, He was taken up and "a cloud received him out of their sight." They that witnessed were not the cloud, rather they witnessed the cloud that received Him. At the end of these forty days when Jesus was taken up, the witnesses were told that Jesus would come again in like manner. The devil is only in the details, because the details reveal the truth and expose his errors. There is nothing that can be done for those who choose to believe something, and then make the scriptures fit what they have chosen believe, rather than studying scripture itself as the final word concerning their beliefs. The scriptures themselves address this problem of humanity over and again. Which is why it clearly states that we will all be judged by them, not what so very many have used them to support.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
May God grant us all the grace and wisdom to submit to the truths of his word over and above our own ideas and pride.
Amo you said "the witnesses were told that Jesus would come again in like manner". Well take a look at Jude.
Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold,
the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
According to your own logic, and I agree with it, Jesus returns with ten thousands of his saints which means he left with ten thousands of his saints.
In the book of Acts the saints that left with Jesus are called a cloud, in Jude they're called ten thousands of his saints.
Hi Rob,
Perhaps you aren't understanding my point. I have not said that redemption did not apply to the disciples. We are talking past each other a bit.
Our salvation (or our entire redemption process) is accomplished in an unbroken chain of several stages, as listed in Romans 8:30. "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." None of these stages included in our total redemption process will be left out, until the believer is finally standing in God's very presence in a glorified, incorruptible, resurrected human body that has been "perfected" forevermore.
As an "earnest", or certification of this promised conclusion to our salvation (i.e., our completed redemption) we are given the pledge of the Holy Spirit dwelling within us as a "down-payment" of our completed redemption in the final resurrection. In Greek, this term is an "arrabon", as found in Ephesians 1:13-14. "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest (arrabon) of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." Written around AD 62-64 AFTER Christ's resurrection, this verse speaks of a "redemption" which was future to the saints that were reading this for the first time.
If you were correct that our completed "redemption" took place at Christ's resurrection, then why would it be necessary for Christ to give the "earnest of the Spirit" within each believer as a promise of further redemption to come? In other words, the "redemption of our body"? What was completed on Christ's resurrection day was the very FIRST example of everything that will be included in our "inheritance" - since we are called "joint heirs with Christ". Christ was absolutely the first one of the "First-fruits" to ascend to the Father in a glorified, resurrected human body form on that resurrection day, when He presented Himself "without spot to God" (Hebrews 9:14). This resurrection-day ascension I believe you just said you agree with, yes?
For the disciples, Christ promised them that when they saw all those disasters in Luke 21:8-26 beginning to take place in their generation, they were not to get discouraged, but were to lift up their heads, because the time of their "redemption" (with the resurrection of their dead bodies) would have drawn near during those days. Most if not all of the 12 apostles would have been martyred by that point in time before the AD 70 resurrection and second coming of Christ. Jesus promised that His second coming, as well as all that list of disasters in Luke 21:8-35, were "ABOUT TO COME TO PASS". (Luke 21:36).
This AD 70 resurrection as well as the AD 33 "First resurrection" may be long past, but we, too, in the final third resurrection in the future, will be "presented faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy". (Jude 24). God has designed this redemption process to take place in stages - not all at once. He designed no less than THREE "harvests" of the believers' bodies out of the ground - not just one. Just as there were THREE harvest celebration feasts back under the Old Covenant.
: Rob Mon Oct 25, 2021 - 12:24:41
Amo you said "the witnesses were told that Jesus would come again in like manner". Well take a look at Jude.
Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
According to your own logic, and I agree with it, Jesus returns with ten thousands of his saints which means he left with ten thousands of his saints.
In the book of Acts the saints that left with Jesus are called a cloud, in Jude they're called ten thousands of his saints.
There are no saints leaving with Jesus mentioned in the verses I shared, or anywhere regarding His ascension after the resurrection. What do you mean He is coming with ten thousand of His saints, I thought you say He already came?
If you believe clouds of heaven is a symbol of thousands of saints, please do expound from scripture. The verses I quoted only mention two men, likely angels, clothed in white apparel. Your verses say nothing of clouds.
: 3 Resurrections Mon Oct 25, 2021 - 13:08:13
Hi Rob,
Perhaps you aren't understanding my point. I have not said that redemption did not apply to the disciples. We are talking past each other a bit.
Our salvation (or our entire redemption process) is accomplished in an unbroken chain of several stages, as listed in Romans 8:30. "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." None of these stages included in our total redemption process will be left out, until the believer is finally standing in God's very presence in a glorified, incorruptible, resurrected human body that has been "perfected" forevermore.
This I completely disagree with 3R's. I don't even want to bring this up, but I have to to explain why I disagree with the point you're making.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Those he FOREKNEW were the Old Testament saints who WERE NOT conformed to the image of Christ because Christ had not yet come. However they were PREDESTINED to be conformed to his image AFTER Christ came so that they might be the FIRSTBORN of MANY believers that were to come after them.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.Everything in verse 30 is past tense. Called (past tense), justified (past tense) and glorified (past tense). The only people that fit that category are the Old Testament saints that were raised with Christ. If those verses were talking people in the future they would say "will be called, will be justified and will be glorified".
God called those OT saints, just like he calls everyone of us. Those OT saints that answered the call, he JUSTIFIED them through the blood of the Lamb just like we are justified by the blood of the Lamb and
THEY ONLY were glorified (PAST TENSE) when they were raised with Christ at his resurrection.
A whole false theology of predestination exists around not reading those verses properly. Besides the grammar in that verse, we are told specifically that those who God FOREKNEW were the OT saints.
Rom 11:2
God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
I think I will respond to the other points of your post in another reply.
: 3 Resurrections Mon Oct 25, 2021 - 13:08:13
As an "earnest", or certification of this promised conclusion to our salvation (i.e., our completed redemption) we are given the pledge of the Holy Spirit dwelling within us as a "down-payment" of our completed redemption in the final resurrection. In Greek, this term is an "arrabon", as found in Ephesians 1:13-14. "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest (arrabon) of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." Written around AD 62-64 AFTER Christ's resurrection, this verse speaks of a "redemption" which was future to the saints that were reading this for the first time.
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our
inheritance until the redemption of the
purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Your assumption is that we as believer's are the purchased possession and if you're right then I would agree that redemption is a progressive process but that's not what that verses tells us. It tells us that the purchased possession is our inheritance. We know what our inheritance is, it's a city who's builder and maker is God.... heavenly Jerusalem.
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which
he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Heb 11:10
For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
It is up to us to redeem, as in take possession of heavenly Jerusalem through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I can't say much more about heavenly Jerusalem because futurism has really muddied the water on the topic.
: 3 Resurrections Mon Oct 25, 2021 - 13:08:13
If you were correct that our completed "redemption" took place at Christ's resurrection, then why would it be necessary for Christ to give the "earnest of the Spirit" within each believer as a promise of further redemption to come? In other words, the "redemption of our body"? What was completed on Christ's resurrection day was the very FIRST example of everything that will be included in our "inheritance" - since we are called "joint heirs with Christ". Christ was absolutely the first one of the "First-fruits" to ascend to the Father in a glorified, resurrected human body form on that resurrection day, when He presented Himself "without spot to God" (Hebrews 9:14). This resurrection-day ascension I believe you just said you agree with, yes?
For the disciples, Christ promised them that when they saw all those disasters in Luke 21:8-26 beginning to take place in their generation, they were not to get discouraged, but were to lift up their heads, because the time of their "redemption" (with the resurrection of their dead bodies) would have drawn near during those days. Most if not all of the 12 apostles would have been martyred by that point in time before the AD 70 resurrection and second coming of Christ. Jesus promised that His second coming, as well as all that list of disasters in Luke 21:8-35, were "ABOUT TO COME TO PASS". (Luke 21:36).
This AD 70 resurrection as well as the AD 33 "First resurrection" may be long past, but we, too, in the final third resurrection in the future, will be "presented faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy". (Jude 24). God has designed this redemption process to take place in stages - not all at once. He designed no less than THREE "harvests" of the believers' bodies out of the ground - not just one. Just as there were THREE harvest celebration feasts back under the Old Covenant.
I think we're too far off on our views on this to discuss further because I'm pretty sure you wouldn't agree with the comments I would make to this but nevertheless I respect your views even if I don't agree. ::smile::
You have said that it is my "assumption" that we as believers are the purchased possession. I am basing that on Paul's statement in I Corinthians 6:19-20.
"What? Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's." Both body and spirit are God's purchased possession. Until the final resurrection, we are given the "earnest" of the indwelling Holy Spirit, as a down-payment, and as proof that God will complete our redemption process in that final resurrection of our bodies.
Abraham may have been waiting for a city whose builder and maker is God, but unlike him in those days, I don't have to wait anymore. I'm already living in the New Jerusalem which came down from God out of heaven: a representation of the New Covenant kingdom, whose gates are always open for admittance to others. As a believer, I am one of the "living stones" laid upon Christ the foundation stone, who is building up the Spiritual Temple of God within that city.
: Amo Mon Oct 25, 2021 - 15:54:30
There are no saints leaving with Jesus mentioned in the verses I shared, or anywhere regarding His ascension after the resurrection. What do you mean He is coming with ten thousand of His saints, I thought you say He already came?
If you believe clouds of heaven is a symbol of thousands of saints, please do expound from scripture. The verses I quoted only mention two men, likely angels, clothed in white apparel. Your verses say nothing of clouds.
Jude isn't talking about the 2nd coming of Christ it's talking about judgment day but Jude only focuses on the judgment of ungodly people. Jesus and the saints come for us at our deaths also but Jude doesn't expound on that.
: 3 Resurrections Tue Oct 26, 2021 - 15:26:58
You have said that it is my "assumption" that we as believers are the purchased possession. I am basing that on Paul's statement in I Corinthians 6:19-20.
"What? Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's." Both body and spirit are God's purchased possession. Until the final resurrection, we are given the "earnest" of the indwelling Holy Spirit, as a down-payment, and as proof that God will complete our redemption process in that final resurrection of our bodies.
Abraham may have been waiting for a city whose builder and maker is God, but unlike him in those days, I don't have to wait anymore. I'm already living in the New Jerusalem which came down from God out of heaven: a representation of the New Covenant kingdom, whose gates are always open for admittance to others. As a believer, I am one of the "living stones" laid upon Christ the foundation stone, who is building up the Spiritual Temple of God within that city.
Amen to everything in that last paragraph, maybe our views are not as far off as I thought. As far as the first paragraph, I believe the Holy Spirit was given to lead us into Heavenly Jerusalem.
Would you be interested in a thread about the resurrection? If so I will start one so we can share ideas on it.
Hi Rob, always interested in any post concerning the future hope (as well as past fulfillments) of the resurrection. If you started such a post, I would jump on board...I never tire of discussing this theme, and I have been looking at this subject from every angle for about nine years now.
: Rob Fri Oct 22, 2021 - 21:02:43
Proof 1
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
When does the Son of man return? When He redeemed the world.
When did Jesus redeem the world? At His resurrection.
I don't see how there can be any argument against this but I'm sure there will be. ::smile::
The above is an example of Preterism, a modern heresy of the church that removes all hope for future events inspired and directed by God. In other words, Preterists attempt to pull the rug out from under Divine Promise by substituting their own form of darkness and deceit. The second coming of Christ is predicted by the prophets of ancient Israel, but the most illustrative event happened just as Jesus disappeared from the sight of His disciples. The quote appears below - totally devoid of Preterist censorship and obfuscation.
"Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven." - Acts 1:11
that's me, hollering from the choir loft...