Even if a hearts-and-flowers day and a long life with her lesbian lover leads her to an eternal barbeque?
We don't go to a wedding to state that two perfect sinless people are getting married. If that was necessary no one could ever go to any wedding.
We go to a wedding to witness a plan of God being committed to and put into action.
If Richard sees through his faith and in his Bible that God didn't plan this, then Richard may not want to be there as a witness, approving merely by being there.
Write her a loving note. Heck, write the... other bride... a note dripping with Jesus-love. Let them know your absence is not a function of hatred, but that you cannot in good faith wish them well in an enterprise never condoned by God, an enterprise that is a twisted travesty of the "one flesh" plan.
:inlove: :kiss: Make sure it positively drips looooove, now. :kiss: :inlove:
Also, you should enclose a copy of it in a cover letter you send to any relative or close friend who might join in a diatribe or gossip-fest against you for not going. Just to make sure no one off in some spiteful corner tries to turn your gentle refusal into a mean unwarranted "Richard's-the-bad-guy" attack on lesbians.
[!--EDIT|janine|Feb. 20 2003,08:53--]
Would I go? Probably not. I don't think that my presence would do anything but say that I condone what is happening. Would I talk to my sister before the event? Yes. What would I say to her? I have no idea.
Maybe I would try to convince her that I loved her, but could not support her because I believed what she was doing was going to lead to her judgment. And loving her means I do everything possible to help her avoid a judgment of eternity without God.
Kevin
This is a very difficult subject. How do you let someone know you love them, but not condone their actions? Where is the line? I know my dad has had a hard time with this and his brother's homosexuality.
shorty
This verse is from bible gateway and may help answer your questions.
"For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage[ 19:12 Or have made themselves eunuchs] because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."
The definition of eunuch is "A castrated man employed as a harem attendant or as a functionary in certain Asian courts.
A man or boy whose testes are nonfunctioning or have been removed.
Informal An ineffectual, powerless, or UNMASCULINE man."
Now i realize this is not necessarily homosexuals, but i believe some of them probably were BECAUSE they were born that way. In some instances homosexuality is sin and some instances it was created within them because of sin and some were born that way. Some will die in their sin and some will be saved. This is why we do not judge. Let God be the judge in this, not us.
Could a person be a homosexual who has never even been with the same sex? Could that person ever live a life of denial because they choose to not see that within themselves? And yet it is there and God loves them. I know of such a person. So is it the act itself that makes someone gay?
seekr
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Roman @ Feb. 21 2003,11:19)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][/quote]
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Talulah- (Ta-luh-laa)???[/quote]
Right!
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Did you really come to a Christian site and then ask the question "Without using the Bible (the final authority for Christians) why homosexuality is wrong?
Sounds like you just came to stir up some debate, and Richard deserves sincere and thoughtful answers, not to be used an excuse for you to start controversy. However, you lacking powers of observation I will give you the answer you requested.[/quote]
I already gave my opinion (even though it wasn't asked for), others have given their opinions and now I see a discussion on whether people are born that way or not, and if people are born that way but never act on it, should they be dissociated from. :sarcasim: I don't have adequate or polite words to express my feelings about that so I just won't comment.
In essence, I asked a simple question, which could be anwsered simply if the respondants don't get up in arms about me trying to 'start controversy.'
Your comments on men and women read like you think the two are unequal halfs that form a whole when together. That is biblical. However, I don't agree. I think men are men and women are women and no mystical union happens when they are together. They produce children because that is biology, nothing more.
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Even homosexual couples that have no children are damaging because they are promoting and encouraging an institution that serves to edify the individual more than society as a whole the way marriage is intended. [/quote]
And I would argue they promote nothing...they are just living their lives. I don't understand the 'edify the individual' part.
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]In the end you can't throw out the Bible and ask for all the good reasons. Too many of the good reasons are in the Bible. [/quote]
It was a challange to think outside the box. To see how many of your ideas come from the bible. You see, even though you tried to answer my question, you still fell back on biblical definitions and ideas.
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] Christian or not, heterosexual or not you should be able to see the benefit of being in a union with the opposite sex, having the 2 strengths become one and making both whole. That's not just corny, that's beautiful and true. [/quote]
Again, I don't see the benefit, other than in raising children. When two homosexual partners are in a relationship, they have different strengths and help to compliment each other too. But they are both seperate individuals, not a half searching for another half to make themselves whole. At least if they are healthy people.
Well said Janine,
It's just like telling teenagers not to have sex before they are married. They were born to desire sex and have extremely strong urges for it--yet we hold them to the Christian commitment to purity before marriage.
A person who thinks he or she is a homosexual by nature should be expected to have just as much self control as an unmarried Christian.
Lee
seekr, Thank you for your insight, but the fact remains that, Homosexuality is one of the sins in which he condemned Sodom and Gommorah. Not the ONLY sin, by far, but one of the sins. Also let me clarify, I didn't mean it to sound like regardless of whether they repent or not they are going to the "smoke stack" as I like to call. I meant, IF they DONT repent of their sin then they would be going. I was just curious if anyone saw a corelation in that. But again I thank you so much for your insight to it. Through discussion we can learn. Also, There are several reasons why I still associate with Jason and Ron. First, its because God loves them and I know that God would want me to at least show them what his love is all about. 2cd, They happen to be very nice people who like to have fun and like to joke around and are friends of mine and 3rd, The least important in my mind, I work with them and I don't want work to be "hostile" environment. Anyways, Mainly I was just on the curious side as to see if anyone else saw that as a corelation with homesexuality.
Also, One more Question. If Homesexuality is not wrong, Why does in Leviticus, it says that if any man lays with a man of the same sex they should be condemned for this is detestable to God (Lev 18:22). IN fact most of that chapter is about "impure" sexual relations. I know we don't go by the 'old' Law anymore. That when Christ came he brought about the NEW Law and We are to follow that. But what about Little things like Lev 18 that go along with What Paul says about Remaining sexually pure. How can we dismiss those laws that are talked about in the New Law and Say that its okay? Can anyone explain that.
Taluhla>> I want to say this, WE are able to get inside his head and figure out whats going on, becuase he speaks of it to the students. Also, I didn't say that celibacy is for everyone, but I do believe that if you are in a sin then you should stop that act, repent, and not ever do it again (Though its very hard and thats why Gods Grace and MERCY is very very important). Why are homosexuals allowed to remain in sin and we cant? If I was sinning (which i do everyday) and a brother confronted me with it, he would ask me to repent and SIN no more.
Kathie
I want to thank all of you for your thoughts, support, and most importantly your prayers.
I do not plan to attend the ceremony. My biggest dilema, as stated in my original post, is finding the best way to demonstrate God's love and Grace when I explain to my sister why I will not be attending.
I'm going to respond to a few comments and questions from other posts on this thread in the hopes that the process helps me clarify my views:
seekr asked
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Would you refuse to go to a wedding of a known liar? [/quote]I don't see the analogy. If someone asked me to come to a ceremony where they were going to stand before God and say "I'm a liar, I have no regrets for being a liar, and I intend to remain a liar for the rest of my life" and ask me to join them in seeking God's blessing on that commitment - no I would not go.
jarschqua asked:[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]would Jesus have gone?
if so, what would He have said and done? [/quote]I don't know if Jesus would have gone, but I think I know what he might have said. Maybe something like: "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."
janine said[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]We go to a wedding to witness a plan of God being committed to and put into action.[/quote] and spurly said[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Would I go? Probably not. I don't think that my presence would do anything but say that I condone what is happening.[/quote]Yep, that's why I can't go.
patriciaredstone said[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Marriage is not a Christian institution. It was being practiced even before Abraham. People from every religion under the sun get married and most often there is nothing even remotely Christian about it.[/quote]True, but this ceremony is taking place in an Episcopal church, ostensibly for the purpose of asking God's blessing on the 'union".
booty said[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]While we, those of your brothers and sisters on this board can offer advice, what you need more from us now is prayer. Prayer that you may find an answer that will serve Him.[/quote]Amen booty. I want nothing more than to serve God.
shorty asked (and others asked similar questions) [!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Every homosexual person that I have known claims thay were born that way.[/quote]According to the doctors at the treatment center I attended back in 1985, I was born an alcoholic. I know that, at times, the cravings are intense. I don't think God intended for me to live my life in a drunken state. By God's grace I have been able to avoid doing that for quite some time now. It isn't always easy but the blessings that come from obeying God's will far outweigh the hardships.
Talulah wrote:[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Quote
"A person who thinks he or she is a homosexual by nature should be expected to have just as much self control as an unmarried Christian."
With no end in sight. Familiarity with human nature should tell you this won't work. [/quote]If my wife becomes incapacitated and incapable of sexual relations, would this excuse my going outside the bonds of God's ordained marriage plan to seek sexual gratification?
Roman wrote:[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] I seriously believe these are the instances that should result in unified prayer for the homosexual. It's easy to think of her as a topic for discussion and forget she is a loved and cherished sister. ...............God alone can change a heart and bring hope to what seems hopeless. There is a chance that this can be an opportunity that ignites a miracle.
In the end, I pray you will see the day your sister thanks you for loving her enough to remain a clear example of Christ. [/quote]Amen Roman. That is my prayer as well.
I hope this clarifies some of the issues. Thanks again to everyone who has posted here.
Please continue the discussion if you are so inclined.
Richard
OK folks,
Once again I'm coming to you asking advice and counsel. I have a sister (as in blood relative) who is in a "committed" lesbian relationship. She is also a professing christian active in her Episcopal church.
Today I received the following invitaion:
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Liza and I are planning to celebrate our committment to one another in a ceremony (read: mushy teary ritual followed by dancing and eating and general merriment) on Saturday, June -- at 1:00pm at -------- Episcopal Church in Washington, DC!!! It will mean so much to us if you can come. Please try to make it if you can. We realize it's a big trip, but it's a huge deal to us and you are all very important.
[/quote]
I cannot in good conscience attend or support the ceremony because I don't believe this relationship is one upon which God looks with favor. How do I tell her that?
I'm already known as the "fundamentalist christian fanatic" in the family. (A label I do not deny - I believe in the fundamentals of christianity and I am a BIG fan of Christ :clap: )
How do I demonstrate the Grace of God while standing firm for the truth of His word?
:help: :help: :help:
Richard
Talulah, somehow I knew you wouldn't.
Can someone please explain to me how a reply appeared before the post it was replying to? Just asking.
btw, tough question. My initial, not-thought-out response is that for a related-by-blood sister, I would probably attend. But like I say, that's just a reaction; I can't say for sure what I'd do.
Good points, JB and Spurly! Such a difficult subject. I always wanted to discuss it but never had anyone that I could ask. I honestly believe you couldn't even ask the question at my church without evil stares.
I think the pedophilia comment is a good one. I have heard that could be in-born (or created thru abuse).... but how vile. Homosexuality can be victimless (but not always) and I do see some analogy.
I believe my sister-in-law is gay. We rarely see her...she lives on the other side of the country. I send Christmas presents to her and her partner (the aunt and the other aunt?). If they married, I probably wouldn't attend but I probably am kinder to them than many others in the family.
I would never let my kids travel unsupervised to visit them although they have asked.
I think somehow we do have to balance what is said in 1 Cor 5: 9-11 with being loving and not judging.
I have to disagree with Jarschqua about passing judgement and telling them. I thank God that He doesn't ask us to judge because I wouldn't want that overwhelming responsibilty. I gladly leave that to the Father.
Shorty,
Here is my idea. All of us have a tendency toward some sin or another. Our natural body pulls us in certain directions. Our goal, as Christians, should be to have enough spirit control and self-control to make a choice not to act on any tendencies toward sin we might have, whether those tendencies be inborn or brought about by environment or upbringing.
Kevin
Talulah- (Ta-luh-laa)???
Did you really come to a Christian site and then ask the question "Without using the Bible (the final authority for Christians) why homosexuality is wrong?
Sounds like you just came to stir up some debate, and Richard deserves sincere and thoughtful answers, not to be used an excuse for you to start controversy. However, you lacking powers of observation I will give you the answer you requested.
All logical humans have no qualms admitting that men and women are different. They both have strengths that go beyond the obvious physical differences, when they are brought together they are stronger and more complete. Studies show children develop better when they have a strong role model for both man and woman. This doesn't mean you can't grow up healthy and whole with one parent, many do, but there is no denying that child has been robbed of something valuable they should have been given. Even homosexual couples that have no children are damaging because they are promoting and encouraging an institution that serves to edify the individual more than society as a whole the way marriage is intended.
In the end you can't throw out the Bible and ask for all the good reasons. Too many of the good reasons are in the Bible. Did you know that during the creation every time God created something He looked upon it and said the word "tob" meaning good, or right. The only time he didn't say it was when He created man and saw that he was alone and said "not tob", he then created Eve out of Adam not as a maid, but as a partner. Adam exclaimed "flesh of my Flesh and Bone of my Bone" meaning this was the other half of him. Many people don't realize it, but many times in the story of creation when God says Adam He is really saying "adam" (from adamah- from the ground) which means mankind in -plural form- refering to both Adam and Eve- which means we are complete together, we are in His image together.
Christian or not, heterosexual or not you should be able to see the benefit of being in a union with the opposite sex, having the 2 strengths become one and making both whole. That's not just corny, that's beautiful and true. Homosexuality runs counter to that. It promotes a union that doesn't bring the strength of the two sexes, can't produce offspring, can't provide offspring with the full benefit of true parenthood, and ultimately glorifies only the 2 people in place of contributing to a healthy marriage, family, community, or society.
I willl say Christians bring a lot of deserved criticism on this issue for failing to have love and mercy for gay people. Grace and pity should always be shown if you have received it yourself undeservingly from God. In their attempts to stand for God, people sometimes forget the depths God pulled them from.
But in regard to Richard- true love is not always easy, understood, or even recognized as such by those we're hurting for. You have my prayer and admiration Richard.
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]A person who thinks he or she is a homosexual by nature should be expected to have just as much self control as an unmarried Christian.[/quote]
With no end in sight. Familiarity with human nature should tell you this won't work.
<< Janine said...
Yeah, I know, Jesus didn't wait until I got it all right to save me. He made me right by saving me.
But, still I think the time to "be there" for them is when they have a poor pay week and you bring them some groceries... or when they get sick and you drive them to the outpatient clinic for a treatment... or when you go with them to the vet and hold their hand when they have to put a beloved old pet to sleep. That's "being there", being "Jesus with skin on". >>
The problem with "being there" is that you have to be "in touch" to know when to "be there." Being "in touch" is a two way street. If you are only "in touch" when YOU want to "be there" and absent when the other party has reached out with a request or a need for you to "be there" the likelyhood of being "shut out" is high and all of the wonderful opportunities to "be there" will be few are far between.
Our loved ones tell us when we need to "be there." Of course we can "be there" on our own terms to some extent, but we should "be there" when it is requested of us. Remember Jonah. He thought he was being shanghied to a completely inappropriate spiritual event. God allowed him to vent and duck and hide and to express his opinion. Still, God ensured that Jonah appeared in his "come as you are" state at the designated time to not only attend, but to sanction and officiate the distasteful and reprehensible event. God works in mysterious ways.
Dag Hammerskjold says it better: "Jesus' 'lack of moral principles.' He sat at meat with publicans and sinners, he consorted wit harlots. Did he do this to obtain their votes? Or did he think that, perhaps, he could convert them by such 'appeasement'? Or was his humanity rich and deep enough to make contact, even in them, with that in human nature which is common to all men, indestructible, and upon which the future has to be built?"
I would go.
[!--EDIT|patriciaredstone|Feb. 22 2003,02:36--]
Richard: thanks for asking the question here and taking the time to respond back to all our comments. The discussion was needed for many of us.
I think your sister is lucky to have a brother like you.
God bless, Shorty
Richard: Tough situation, and I feel for you! Have you expressed your displeasure/disappointment in the past? If so, how have you chosen to express your convictions and how has that expression been received? If you have had conversations with your sister before on this subject, does she really expect you to attend? I would think a gentle letter expressing why you will not be attending would be the best thing. Of course, you're also going to have to deal with the rest of the family, but it would seem that clear, kind communication to your sister is the first order of business.
May God bless your efforts and use you as a vehicle to help your sister!
As for me, I'm not transparent so much as too tired to hide.
I would go.
Marriage is not a Christian institution. It was being practiced even before Abraham. People from every religion under the sun get married and most often there is nothing even remotely Christian about it.
So would Jesus come? I don't see why not. Would he take note that the couple is the same gender and that it is not a perfect union? I think so. But he would do that in love. Perhaps, even with some dry humor... He certainly would not go with the attitude that "I am going to pretend that everything is perfectly fine." Why should Jesus lie? Why should you lie? Who needs that kind of stress? But your love and acceptance of your sister as a work-in-progess (as we all are) will be a special blessing to her and to all present when they know your true feelings and that you still came to wish her well.
Everything in scripture (even the sacrifical laws) are about the healing of Man and Woman. Two women being married is a failure of biblical proportions, but not a complete failure. With Christ, everything can be redeemed. At least these two women have learned to love and to commit. I have often seen (but, unfortunately, only with women) how a committed homosexual partnership can be a healing step. Often, the partnership creates a longing for a committed heterosexual partnership.
All is not lost with your sister. She wants your support or she would not have sent you an invitation. I think you should give her your support, but firmly, letting her know squarely where you stand so that your support is real to her.
Here's a another one of those concepts that take me a flash, a twinkling, to think of/identify, but will take me a looooong and boring post to explain... I'll try to be concise.
Even when an issue is under consideration that is very important; even when said issue has eternal implications; and even when I have been blessed to be humbly in possession of some bit of knowledge about it that could save people years of heartbreak (not to mention an eternity in the Smoking Section); and even when I am driven as with a fire in my bones to share that knowledge, for the love of God!...
Who am I to think a word from me is going to rock somebody else's world?!?
Even if it's the very Word of God coming out of my mouth, the Word that will not come back void!
Why would I be so cocky as to think that the pearls of wisdom dropping from my beautiful lips are gonna make any difference (that I can see), here and now?
I still don't think I'd go to the ceremony. But if I did not go, it would not be out of some stupid idea on my part that they'd say "Oh, woe, Janine isn't here!
"Our love is a cursed evil designed in the pits of Hell by a campy effeminate Satan himself!
"Quickly, let us run to the Christian psychologist's office to be led through the "Love One Out" program!
"Perhaps after we have been miraculously healed and after we have suitably groveled at her feet, Janine will forgive us! And find us burly testosterone-laden husbands like Mike!"
There, the long-winded illustration is over now. Thank yew fer yer support!
P.S. Sorry, Marc, that was my fault. I was cleaning up a messy post of mine, & me & Talulah cross-posted. Since it was still pretty clear I left it alone.
Richard,
There have been many people here telling you some very different answers. Some, amazingly, have said that the very Jesus who created man and woman to be together in the one flesh relationship would attend a wedding promoting and condoning what God clearly condemns (Romans 1:26-28; 1 Cor. 6:9; Judges 19:22; Jude 1:7). :doh:
If we consult the Bible, God tells us through Paul not to associate with sexually immoral people (1 Corinthians 5:9-11). Attending a wedding is much more than just associating. The text clearly tells us we should not associate with people we know to be cheating sexually on their spouse, fornicators, and homosexuals.
Kari (KMV) told us in one of her posts that we should be willing to pay the price for our convictions. Your price will be high. It will be hurting the feelings of your sister and having some members of your family look down on you. Though it will be very difficult Richard, I think we both know what must be done.
Sometimes, it's best not to wish someone well. The Bible often times talks of God using difficult times to bring someone back to the Him. In 1 Corinthians 5, Paul says,
(1) It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. (2) And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? (3) Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. (4) When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, (5)hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.
Then in verse 9-11, (9) I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people-- (10) not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. (11) But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral...
Sometimes, being a Christians means not being the "nice" guy. I experienced this with a dear friend of mine who is now gay. I have told him that I am still his friend and love him with the love of the Lord, but I will not associate with him. When I see him I say hello and am polite, but he knows where I stand. If he were to invite me to a wedding of himself and his male lover, he knows I wouldn't come--because of my convictions and the fact that I do not condone what Paul says I should not associate with.
Lee
sometimes you have to love someone enough to tell them they are wrong.
not just "not condoning" but passing judgement on the sin. and telling them of that judgement.
why? someone has to share the Word of God with that person. that same Word challenges all of us and all of our sins, as well it should.
maybe you can tell her about something you knew to be sinful in your life that God's Word challenged you with. then it's not an attack on her but an understanding of submission to Him, on both your parts.
You have my sincere prayer in support for your situation. You mentioned in your post that you already feel that you cannot attend, and I agree with your conclusion. There have been some very misguided people mentioning judgement in regard to this issue and that can tend to confuse the topic. For one thing God warns us about judgement in regard to punishment. It means we should never put ourselves in his place, it doesn't mean He doesn't expect us to recognize sin. He expects us to recognize right from wrong, that's not judging. Two of my best friends are gay, and one of them always ask me if I will sing at his wedding. I honestly pray for God to give me a spirit of love not one of pride or arrogance when I tell him I can't attend his wedding because it would be giving my blessing or support to something that will hurt my convictions and my friend himself. I don't want to have a part in something that will only cause more pain and cause confusion in the heart of my friend as to where I stand. Unconditional love is not unconditional acceptance. Sometimes love involves being misread and mislabeled while holding firm to what you know to be true.
I seriously believe these are the instances that should result in unified prayer for the homosexual. It's easy to think of her as a topic for discussion and forget she is a loved and cherished sister. I propose every believer that reads this post commit to Richard a time of prayer for him and the sister he loves. Not a hollow prayer out of duty, but a sincere prayer out of faith. God alone can change a heart and bring hope to what seems hopeless. There is a chance that this can be an opportunity that ignites a miracle.
In the end, I pray you will see the day your sister thanks you for loving her enough to remain a clear example of Christ.
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Guest @ Feb. 21 2003,10:17)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]shorty
This verse is from bible gateway and may help answer your questions.
"For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage[ 19:12 Or have made themselves eunuchs] because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."
The definition of eunuch is "A castrated man employed as a harem attendant or as a functionary in certain Asian courts.
A man or boy whose testes are nonfunctioning or have been removed.
Informal An ineffectual, powerless, or UNMASCULINE man."
Now i realize this is not necessarily homosexuals, but i believe some of them probably were BECAUSE they were born that way. In some instances homosexuality is sin and some instances it was created within them because of sin and some were born that way. Some will die in their sin and some will be saved. This is why we do not judge. Let God be the judge in this, not us.
Could a person be a homosexual who has never even been with the same sex? Could that person ever live a life of denial because they choose to not see that within themselves? And yet it is there and God loves them. I know of such a person. So is it the act itself that makes someone gay?
seekr[/quote]
Seekr: thanks very much for your comments. I agree that there are many nuiances to this discussion. For the person born that way but never acting on it, do we disassociate from them? Is it the act we abhore or the orientation? Or, both?
Tululah: As to what hurts and/or is wrong (other than the Bible)? I wanted cousins for my kids! It hurts me to not have neices and nephews to dote on!
Ark: I have seen the same thing...churches turning people away...judging the sin and sinner. It's sad, really sad....
There are many sins I have to fight off every day, rooted in lots of different places:
the way I was at birth,
where and how I was raised,
my own sinful laxity in the control of God-given desires
and other places too, probably.
Why do homosexuals get a "pass" for the places where they suffer if they live by Christian/Bible standards, but not me? Is the opportunity to conduct the "sex act" with the person/people/animals/appliances of my choice a gift only gays get?
If Scripture condemns a guy for being effeminate... and that's the English word, now, maybe the word in Greek translates more literally to "catamite", "sodomite", or something else, action words, not descriptions of qualities... then it condemns him. That's it. It's his job, if he is a Christian, to figure out how to so live that he doesn't act on sinful impulses.
It happens sometimes that people come to believe that they must not live as a homosexual any more, and give it up (as a manifested, acted-out lifestyle). Such a guy may go the rest of his life on Earth finding only men attractive. I don't think that's the sinful part at all.
It may be - ah - not the norm - to think of yourself as a Kenmore washer. But, if you can function and have an otherwise happy and fulfilling life, go-head on, bro', knock y'seff out! Trouble comes in when you swallow 25 pounds of dirty jeans and do the Twist to clean them.
There's the sin. Thoughts or desires aren't a problem - birds flying over your head aren't the problem. What's the worst they can do, drop a poop on you? It's when you let them stop and build nests in your beard, that's the sinful problem.
So why not abandon all self-control and party?!?
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Renee @ Feb. 21 2003,2:16)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]It seems to me that we as individuals are to be an example of Christ to others. When I look at being an example, I have come to realize that for me that does not mean me trying to change anything in the other person, but rather me simply being what God designed me to be and what I have grown to understand and be in Christ. I tend to leave in Gods hands the "what" and "how" my example affects others and if that example is of service to them. It seems to me that this is much what Christ did for us...He was the example for us and we are now in the process of letting that example form and shape us daily.
If my brother was gay and was in the process of committing to a homesexual relationship He would alread know that I believe this is against what God teaches. He would also know without a doubt that I love him and would be there for him through thick and thin. I could attend his committment ceromony, I could look both in the eye and tell them that I love them. I could accept them without accepting their present understanding of what is right. As others have stated ..Christ accepted us clothed in all our many sins but no one is misguided into believeing that He places His stamp of approval on anything that is sinful. He rather, shapes us via a process into the vessel He would have us be.
Renee[/quote]
I love how you expressed that, Renee. I'm not sure that attending a wedding ceremony gives approval or blessings or anything like that. It's just being there for the person. If we focus on setting a Christ-like example, then I believe you are right...the rest is in God's hands. Christ accepted us, sins and all, surely we can do the same for our brothers and sisters!
Katc In your statement "Does anyone see a corelation of this historical event and his judgement with a sin of homosexuality? If he destroyed for it then, would he not condemn us to the "smoking stack" now if we don't repent of that sin?"
This was not the reason Sodom was destroyed. This was just a result of their "sin" that leads to death...kind of like a symptom. And yes in many instances homosexuality is sin, but God has given us a "pass" with Jesus shedding His blood for us, when we love Him. In Ezekiel16:49 it states what the sin of Sodom was--'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen." Don't you see this in our own country--we also have become unconcerned and overfed and the laws oppress the poor and the symptoms of wickedness because ofthis are evident. We keep trying to address the symptoms instead of doing what would heal our nation and change what is taking place. We will never stop the sin until we become just. In Isaiah 10:1-4
"1 Woe to those who make unjust laws, to those who issue oppressive decrees, 2 to deprive the poor of their rights
and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people,
making widows their prey and robbing the fatherless. 3 What will you do on the day of reckoning, when disaster comes from afar? To whom will you run for help? Where will you leave your riches? 4 Nothing will remain but to cringe among the captives or fall among the slain. Yet for all this, his anger is not turned away,
his hand is still upraised."
If you have read other posts of mine you will know that this ties in with what I try to continuosly get across to others...to love God, you show love to others. This is what fulfills the law of Christ and the ONLY rule we live under (Romans 13:9-10) as believers. Sin is sin when we do not believe and judgment comes about from oppressing the poor and becoming arrogant in how we treat those we consider brothers or anyone else. We all struggle with sin and sometimes in our struggle we give up from others judging us and the pain that we are in. I know of no one who has overcome it all. And maybe that is the case with Richard's relative. We do not know. So I still would rather show love and allow God to work in someone's life. I am a "sinner" also saved by grace.
seekr
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Also, I didn't say that celibacy is for everyone[/quote]
Just all homosexuals, forever.
One small point we have all overlooked and Richard might clarify.
This is presented as a Committment Ceremony. Is that a pseudo wedding to skirt laws or is it an acknowledgement that a marriage is not appropriate by the participants.
As to attending or not, even if it were a pseudo wedding, I would attend, remaining in prayer as I stated previously. My presence in prayer is in no way sanctioning nor condoning homosexuality. In fact, I believe my prayer and the known fact that I was doing so sends a quite different message.
Curious, if one or both of the participants were waiting sentencing for embezzlement, but heterosexual, would some still shun the event?
I respect your decision, Richard and I will keep you and your sister in my prayers.
:wave: Richard,
I appreciate your decision.You have made it in a very mature way.
However,your attendance would only be an expression of love for your sister and would make you less self righteous in her eyes.
It's your call and I commend you either way.
God bless,Charles
Richard, if love is the law, what should your response be? I would not "stand by" with any harsh stances especially if she already knows how you feel. To communicate love, no matter what and support her in her decision would be much better. God saves, not us. He has just called us to love one another. Would you refuse to go to a wedding of a known liar? Sorry about the anology, but God came to save sinners and it is not our place to decide who is worthy. You do not know the outcome of her life and an act of love would draw someone closer to God than presenting our harsh stances.
seekr
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (janine @ Feb. 20 2003,1:41)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Even if a hearts-and-flowers day and a long life with her lesbian lover leads her to an eternal barbeque?[/quote]
I don't believe in hell and I don't believe there is anything wrong with homosexuality.
Sometimes it is nice to be transparent.
Richard,
I would attend the service and behave in a gracious and loving manner. Attending is not condoning. She probably knows your view and has been gracious enough to include you.
Think of Jesus and all those sinners he hung out with. Think of King David.
Ranger
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Guest @ Feb. 21 2003,07:12)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I have a question! I've just always wondered if homosexuality could be a natural condition just like epilepsy is a natural condition that was misunderstood in Biblical times. Every homosexual person that I have known claims thay were born that way. Could the Bible be wrong on this if it was wrong on epilepsy? Is that possible?[/quote]
Only if sex is an uncontrolable action...sort of like epileptic seizures.
You can control epilepsy with medication. I think sexual drive maybe could be controlled with castration?
Even, if you use the argument that a homosexual can choose chastity....if it is a natural condition (and I don't know if that's true or not) and people understood that, then maybe homosexuals wouldn't be so stigmatized....ostrasized...hated.....misunderstood.
I'm scared I'll be hated just for asking a question about it....there's that much prejudice out there about this.
Goodmorning..Since I deal with homosexuals at work, I have a heard time believeing that we should disassociate with them. Fortunatly, Those at work that are homosexual know that I strongly disagree with that way of life, but I have philosophy that Christ demostrated to us so often in the Gospels that should not be overlooked. We should Love the Sinner but hate the Sin. If I disassociated with Jason and Ron (both are in my unit at work) then how are they to know who Christ is?
BUT, I would not go to a wedding if Jason wanted me to because to others its saying that I believe its okay for them to live together in sin and its NOT okay. We shouldn't tell someone its okay for them to perish, we should be trying to help them and showing them though actions and by talking to them that they need to confess their sin, repent of the sin and stop the sin.
Also, I disagree with Talulah and the statement that "homosexuality is not wrong" Afterall, there are numerous scriptures that says that it is. Paul stated over and over not only in Corinthians but in several other letters to the chrurchs, that we should sustain from sexual immorality. Also, Does anyone see a corelation to the way God feels about homosexuality and Sodom and Gomorrah? IN Genesis 19:1-5 it states,
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw the, he got up to meet them and bowd down with his face to the ground. 2. "My lords," he said "please turn aside to your servant's house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning." "no," they answered, "we willspend the night in the square." 3. But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. 4. Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom-both young and old-surrounded the house. 5. They called to Lot, "Were are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."[/quote]
Does anyone see a corelation of this historical event and his judgement with a sin of homosexuality? If he destroyed for it then, would he not condemn us to the "smoking stack" now if we don't repent of that sin?
Honestly, I wouldn't go. But that is mainly becuase I am uncomfortable with the whole Homosexual thing and I believe it is a sin that God would not condone. Its not natural and its not meant to be. God Created Man and Woman to be together. Not Man and Man or Woman and Woman. If I'm wrong about this, Im up for correction but that is how I read the creation of man in Genesis 2. (Genesis 2:21-25) I don't see any mention of God Creating Man to help comfort Man or Woman to help comfort Woman.
Other than that, Please let me know if anyone else sees the corelation in the fall of Sodom and Gommorrah and Homosexuality and other sins, or if that is just me..
i think judging is misunderstood.
judging is coming to grips in your mind with the concept that something is wrong. you have then judged. i say judge that homosexuality is wrong.
God wants us to judge in the above sense.
we don't have the ability judge in the sense of literally plucking out someone's soul and putting them in hell. that's not what i refer to shorty.
judging is taking a stance and sticking to it. that's what i meant. sorry if that wasn't clear.
i think if you are the only Bible that your sister will ever see, then you not only have to paint a picture of Jesus' love focusing on the path to forgiveness, but also tell her that God doesn't accept homosexuality.
i'm personally tired of this too-nice Christianity that has us afraid to say something is wrong. if you don't impact your sister in a way that she'll remember, you haven't impacted her.
you can't pull her from the fire by giving her coal wrapped in pretty ribbons, or tossing her nice looking flowers from a safe distance that only add to the blaze. her soul is at stake. to what extent will you go to change that?
a slow steady impact on her life, tempering love with telling her about God's judgement on the rightness/wrongness of sins like homosexuality is one of your lots in life.
nobody likes hearing that they are in the wrong. none of us wanted to hear that our sins were bad. but we had to know. and thank God someone was bold enough to tell us to our faces while also presenting the hope of our Lord to fall into.
Shorty, but then we can find natural reasons to excuse pedophilia and murders.
If gay people were born gay, why can't pedophiles be born that way too. If chastity is a burden to heavy to carry for homosexuals, why not for pedophiles?
There is one difference, significant IMHO, between Paul's instruction and the current situation. Paul is dealing with a member of the body. If we carry this down it's logical path, as Lee presents it, then Jesus should have never talked with the Samaritan woman, etc. If your sister is a member of the Lord's body it would alter the way in which we approach this. If she is not, we have more lattitude in our dealings with her. Having said that, let me offer my approach. I would not attend the "wedding" as I agree with others that the attendance at the ceremony does demonstrate support for it. But at the same time, I would invite the ladies over for dinner wih the family and would accept invitations to socialize with them. For me, at any rate, I guess this fulfills the old saw about loving the sinner, but not the sin.
Jim
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]It is only, that the idea that anyone could believe that a person was born that way and can't help it, and even would never act on it because they believe it to be wrong but STILL be shunned because of something can't help it. The idea is appalling to me. It would be identical to believing it was a sin to be diabetic and the person denied the inherant diabetic nature, refused to take insulin and was still shunned because they are 'diabetic'
[/quote]
I have never heard of anyone (especially not anyone on this board but even in the most conservative of churches) shunning someone who has homosexual leanings but does not practice homosexuality. Seriously. The only people I've seen churches shun are those who are actively involved in homosexual acts and not willing to leave that lifestyle. Maybe I'm just sheltered. Has anyone else seen someone/some group shun someone simply for having those tendencies but not acting on them?
It seems to me that we as individuals are to be an example of Christ to others. When I look at being an example, I have come to realize that for me that does not mean me trying to change anything in the other person, but rather me simply being what God designed me to be and what I have grown to understand and be in Christ. I tend to leave in Gods hands the "what" and "how" my example affects others and if that example is of service to them. It seems to me that this is much what Christ did for us...He was the example for us and we are now in the process of letting that example form and shape us daily.
If my brother was gay and was in the process of committing to a homesexual relationship He would alread know that I believe this is against what God teaches. He would also know without a doubt that I love him and would be there for him through thick and thin. I could attend his committment ceromony, I could look both in the eye and tell them that I love them. I could accept them without accepting their present understanding of what is right. As others have stated ..Christ accepted us clothed in all our many sins but no one is misguided into believeing that He places His stamp of approval on anything that is sinful. He rather, shapes us via a process into the vessel He would have us be.
Renee
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I would go.
Marriage is not a Christian institution. It was being practiced even before Abraham. People from every religion under the sun get married and most often there is nothing even remotely Christian about it.
So would Jesus come? I don't see why not. Would he take note that the couple is the same gender and that it is not a perfect union? I think so. But he would do that in love. Perhaps, even with some dry humor... He certainly would not go with the attitude that "I am going to pretend that everything is perfectly fine." Why should Jesus lie? Why should you lie? Who needs that kind of stress? But your love and acceptance of your sister as a work-in-progess (as we all are) will be a special blessing to her and to all present when they know your true feelings and that you still came to wish her well.
Everything in scripture (even the sacrifical laws) are about the healing of Man and Woman. Two women being married is a failure of biblical proportions, but not a complete failure. With Christ, everything can be redeemed. At least these two women have learned to love and to commit. I have often seen (but, unfortunately, only with women) how a committed homosexual partnership can be a healing step. Often, the partnership creates a longing for a committed heterosexual partnership.
All is not lost with your sister. She wants your support or she would not have sent you an invitation. I think you should give her your support, but firmly, letting her know squarely where you stand so that your support is real to her.[/quote]
Lee has wisely informed me that there are several who are very troubled with my post quoted from page 2 above.
Even though I think the post is perfectly clear :D if you still have questions or doubts after carefully re-reading the post above, please feel welcome to send me an IM or post on this thread and I will attempt to clarify for you.
Sorry for any offense.
[!--EDIT|patriciaredstone|Feb. 21 2003,4:14--]
Janine..
I tried to send you an email but your box was full :D Nice to be popular. Thanks for the editing you did for me the other day.
Janine said...
Yeah, I know, Jesus didn't wait until I got it all right to save me. He made me right by saving me.
But, still I think the time to "be there" for them is when they have a poor pay week and you bring them some groceries... or when they get sick and you drive them to the outpatient clinic for a treatment... or when you go with them to the vet and hold their hand when they have to put a beloved old pet to sleep. That's "being there", being "Jesus with skin on".
I agree with you that these are ways to be there for another. I have just seen people in my lifes journey that needed things of a more intangible nature as well. Things like feeling accepted as a valuable human being warts and all. Feelings and emotions seem to be what drives us in this world for good or bad. My feelings about myself or others define how I deal with things and if I am cut off or made to feel less valuable than the next person I will probably behave that way. If I feel unloved inside I will probably emitt the qualities of a unloving human. And please everyone remember this ...we are all salesmen...we sell others on their own value as well as ours both directly and indirectly, intentionally or unintentional. We sell Christ daily by letting others see and hear His love witnessed to them through the way we handle the simple as well as the complicated times of our lives and theirs.
Janine..you are a blessing... I love the ability of yours to tare into things and look at them from all directions. Christ is shinning out and the love is beautiful :)
Renee
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Make up your mind, silly lady! Either the sexual union of two people is nothing, a sneeze, a passing of methane, or else it is too a God-designed magic which is a vital part of "two becoming one flesh". You can't have your snake and beat it too. [/quote]
What about in between? Pleasurable, bonding, a release and expression of effection. I never said sex was akin to passing gas.
Booty,
The way I see this ceremony is that it is related directly to the sin they are openly involved in. They are basically flaunting the sin of homosexuality by having this psuedo marriage ceremony--as that is exactly what it is- as a way to skirt the law which does not allow same sex marriage in almost all states (in Texas, same sex marriage is expressly prohibited in the law). They are making a commitment in front of everyone to live openly as a married couple in a permanent sinful state. I personally cannot support that type of action. If it was one of my own kids doing this, I would not be there for this event. It would be adding fatherly approval to a continueing sin. That is a large part of what is occuring here. They are looking for defacto approval. By attending, you would be giving defacto public support to this action, unless you took public action in the ceremony to publicly denounce the sin that is ongoing. As a parent, the doors of my home would always be open for my child if that child was in dire need of help, but there would be a tough stance as far as the sin is concerned. The love would always be there, but I could not condone allowing the sin in my home. Removing the source of the sin and repentance, and seeking help and support to not fall back into the this sin would bring quick forgiveness, and cause the "the fatted calf" to be quickly slaughtered to celebrate the return of the child.
That is alot of how I see God's grace working for us. He does not condone the open sin. He cannot allow it into his house and in his presence. However, he continues to love us and leaves the door open for us to return home if we are repentant and trying to correct our ways. We may fall again but that door is always open when we come back truely repentant. However, as long as we flaunt our sin in his face and everyone elses faces, then we have stepped out of that grace that he offers. His grace is always there when we look and ask, and he is anxious for our return. His ear is always open as we ask for help and he always gives help in dire need. However, he does not ever condone continueing sin by allowing in his presence.
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Curious, if one or both of the participants were waiting sentencing for embezzlement, but heterosexual, would some still shun the event?[/quote]
Seems to me there is a difference between the two. The embesslement has been committed, the participants caught (the sin is no longer being committed), found guilty (and probably very repentant in the case), and waiting sentencing. We are not supporting the on going sin of embezzlement by attending a marriage ceremony in this case. We are supporting the commitment of a man and woman who have jointly broken the law concerning theft by embesslement but are not longer commiting that theft, and we are supporting the couple as they wait their punishment which they will serve (ongoing embezzlement is not occuring and not what is at center stage) and be forgiven by society afterward. It is the commitment of the two people to each other while they are punished for the crime they committed but are not committing any longer. In this situation, I think God would expect us to be there!
My thoughts for the morning.
What Shorty said, Richard. :thumbup:
would Jesus have gone?
if so, what would He have said and done?
I have a question! I've just always wondered if homosexuality could be a natural condition just like epilepsy is a natural condition that was misunderstood in Biblical times. Every homosexual person that I have known claims thay were born that way. Could the Bible be wrong on this if it was wrong on epilepsy? Is that possible?
I would not go. I have a brother-in-law who is homosexual. This has not come up yet but the thoughts about him and his partner at family functions has been thought about by me. I don't really know if he is with anyone right now and the issue has not come up. I do struggle with dealing with such a situation. I just see going as condoning.
Patrick
Would Jesus attend?
I don't know, but he sure went to some bad places and associated with some major outcasts. We know God will be there and see what happens.
I don't have any swell answers (though Patricia did a good job). I don't know the dynamics of your relationship but whatever course you take make sure your sister knows that you love her, you disagree with what she is doing, and that you love her any way and are available if she needs you.
I've been working with a woman who made some bad choices and got caught up in some terrible things and because of the people who turned their back on her she has struggled mightily in her relationship with God because she was left with the feeling that there would be no one waiting to put the best cloak on her, rings on her fingers and to celebrate and welcome her home. One church "family" she found turned its back on her when she had the first slip that they had been waiting for, instead of helping her back up.
I think we often miss an important element of the story of the Prodigal Son. Jesus told this parable at the house of tax collector with the outcasts of society all around him.
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Talulah @ Feb. 21 2003,11:46)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I already gave my opinion (even though it wasn't asked for), others have given their opinions and now I see a discussion on whether people are born that way or not, and if people are born that way but never act on it, should they be dissociated from. :sarcasim: I don't have adequate or polite words to express my feelings about that so I just won't comment.[/quote]
Tululah: I didn't mean to hurt your feelings or provoke with questions. I was and am seeking better understanding of this issue and was thinking out loud. Please forgive me if I offended you...
Just for future reference.
Taluhlaa, I go to a very respected University and within that University is a professor who is "celebate". He speaks to the Students often about sexual purity and what Singles can do for Christ. He to has the 'no end to sight' type of life. If he can do it, WHY can't Homosexuals do it as well? It takes Strength and Faith and complete reliance on God but it is possible.
Kathie
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I'm not sure that attending a wedding ceremony gives approval or blessings or anything like that. It's just being there for the person. If we focus on setting a Christ-like example, then I believe you are right...the rest is in God's hands. Christ accepted us, sins and all, surely we can do the same for our brothers and sisters![/quote]
Yeah, I know, Jesus didn't wait until I got it all right to save me. He made me right by saving me.
But, still I think the time to "be there" for them is when they have a poor pay week and you bring them some groceries... or when they get sick and you drive them to the outpatient clinic for a treatment... or when you go with them to the vet and hold their hand when they have to put a beloved old pet to sleep. That's "being there", being "Jesus with skin on".
To be there, "dearly beloved", at the wedding/ceremony, is to be a witness of something lifelong, and tied intimately into God's will, being inaugurated.
So what if people got married in some way before marriage became a "Christian" thing? God started the whole thing with a pile of red earth and a piece of prime rib! It's always been his deal, one way or another.
Richard,
I had an idea and may be way off, but I wanted to share it anyhow. Your sister knows how you feel about her lesbianism. However, the event is a big event to her. Is it possible that maybe your sister is just trying to cover her bases here? She knows you don't approve but at the same time does not want to you somehow to be snubbed if she didn't tell you what was going on. Do you understand what I am getting at?
Look at it like this: suppose she were converting to Catholicism and you did not approve of that either. However, she could do it without teling you and risk hurting you even more that you were not told or she could tell you out of a desire to not be so "secretive" to someone so close to her that she loves.
I wish your sister a happy day and much success.
Richard,
With a dear gay cousin I can certainly empathize with you.
You have a very hard decision to make which you need to take to Him in prayer, on your knees, in fasting and in that dark place where you can be totally in private, just you and Him.
While we, those of your brothers and sisters on this board can offer advice, what you need more from us now is prayer. Prayer that you may find an answer that will serve Him.
The good Friar, (My other cousin) and I have corresponded about Lawrence and his wee friend with whom Lawrence has shared a faithful loving relationship for oh so many years. We do not have an answer because neither of us can find it to condone this relationship, but neither of us can toss Lawrence either.
With Lawrence, I follow these guidelines. I have talked with he and his mate. They are quite aware that I believe they are living in what I personally believe to be sin. They also are aware that I believe their lack of repentance is a very dangerous defiance of God's will. They also know that I do not agree that this is a "natural" condition brought about by some element in their physical being over which they have no control.
Beyond that we follow a normal relationship. They are welcome in my home and I in theirs, (LOLOL Their wee cottage screams Machisimo & Testosterone !! Why?). We talk and correspond frequently, Lawrence and Liam have graciously offered to take Sandi and myself in when and if we have to run from here. He was the first in my family to do so and certainly is the one the most attentive to the news from here. Candidly Richard, that offer is a very valueable one. They are located in an area where I could offer my services and commence the rebuilding financially that will be required if we flee. Of course though Lawrence is also outcast from the clan much as I am to a certain degree.
L&L have not attempted to formalize their relationship yet, when and if they do I will face a decision similar to yours and I am not the full shilling, no Solomon here. As they know my convictions, I expect they would invite me but respecting my beliefs, I believe they would not ask me to participate in any significant way. For my own part I would like to think that I would accept the invitation with the clear understanding that I would be uncomfortable and as is my practice when I am in an uncomfortable situation I would pass my time in prayer. Somehow I am certain that Lawrence and Liam would respect this and I also trust it would be acceptable in the eyes of our Lord. T the Friar, (He calls me "The Preacher"), has decided on a similar course of action.
But then in all honesty Richard, I very seriously doubt the L's will ever decide to formalize their relationship, too many years have gone by and they have legally managed to establish a relationship where each has the rights a spouse would have. Liam is the cute hoor, he formed them into a corporation years back so the "Surviving Partner" retains control of all assets of the corporation including the testosterone cottage and the vehicles.
Thank the Lord then that I may never be faced with your decision. Richard I will be on my knees for strength and guidance for you. Vaya con Dios mi hermano.
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]You can control epilepsy with medication. I think sexual drive maybe could be controlled with castration?
Even, if you use the argument that a homosexual can choose chastity....if it is a natural condition (and I don't know if that's true or not) and people understood that, then maybe homosexuals wouldn't be so stigmatized....ostrasized...hated.....misunderstood.
I'm scared I'll be hated just for asking a question about it....there's that much prejudice out there about this.[/quote]
Any sex-related sin causes an uproar. People are such babies about it. Not that it isn't vitally important... we ought to take Bible stances on stuff... which includes a lot better responses than virulent hate, for sure!
People are so lopsided. It gets to a weird point sometimes. In my advocates' training when I worked with battered women and sexual assault survivors, they tried to teach us some sort of bra-burning/free women from sexual tyrany approach to dealing with rape. "Rape is not sexual, it's about power!"
I wasn't the only one in the class who came back with a "Whoa!" It sure is about sex - in that, the rapist uses the victim's own sexuality, her sex-related body parts and society's own skewed look at gender and sexuality, as a weapon OF power. See what I mean? I was never sure the instructor "got it", though. She was so thoroughly indoctrinated with this "sexual abuse hasn't anything to do with sex/men are beasts" mindset...
People get "indoctrinated" about homosexuality, too, either against it to the point of violent idiocy, or they try to be so very neutral about it they end up condoning it. Only by holding the Lord's hand can we be led through the maze without bashing into one wall or another.
I would be interested to know, if, without using the bible, anyone here could tell me what is wrong with homosexuality. How is hurts people, why it is wrong, etc.
PS...(you can't use the word gross.)
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Tululah: I didn't mean to hurt your feelings or provoke with questions. I was and am seeking better understanding of this issue and was thinking out loud. Please forgive me if I offended you... [/quote]
Don't worry, you didn't offend me, I understand the questioning nature of your posts.
It is only, that the idea that anyone could believe that a person was born that way and can't help it, and even would never act on it because they believe it to be wrong but STILL be shunned because of something can't help it. The idea is appalling to me. It would be identical to believing it was a sin to be diabetic and the person denied the inherant diabetic nature, refused to take insulin and was still shunned because they are 'diabetic'
I know Christians have all these theories and nuances, but it really is that simple to me. I respect it if you believe it is wrong to act on and is a choice, that is your choice to make, but it is just downright silly to believe a person is wrong because of an inherant quality that isn't acted upon.
edited to add: however, no matter what you think about the matter, spend some time with a homosexual man, observe the way he acts, talk to his family that knew he was gay when he was a very small child, the kids that bullied him and made fun and called him 'fag' his entire life, and see if you can make yourself believe he wasn't born that way. I don't particularly feel comfortable around gay men, but I can see there is something there that I don't understand that makes them that way.
(Not trying to be antagonistic, just stating my honest opinion)
[!--EDIT|janine|Feb. 21 2003,08:07--]
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (KatC @ Feb. 21 2003,2:22)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Just for future reference.
Taluhlaa, I go to a very respected University and within that University is a professor who is "celebate". He speaks to the Students often about sexual purity and what Singles can do for Christ. He to has the 'no end to sight' type of life. If he can do it, WHY can't Homosexuals do it as well? It takes Strength and Faith and complete reliance on God but it is possible.
Kathie[/quote]
Because one person who choses to be celibate as a personal choice (and you don't live with him and aren't inside his head to know what he feels) isn't the same as mandating that EVERY person who is completed and fulfilled only in a same-sex relationship should be celibate for their ENTIRE lives.
I have heard people say that the reason for all the scandel in the Catholic church is because of celibacy but the same people will say that homosexuals should be celibate. It is hypocrisy.
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Your comments on men and women read like you think the two are unequal halfs that form a whole when together... However, I don't agree. I think men are men and women are women and no mystical union happens when they are together. They produce children because that is biology, nothing more.[/quote]
OK, everyone who thinks sexual intercourse is nothing more than another bodily function, like blowing your nose or voiding your bowels, raise your hand... but wash it first. :p
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[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]...one person [chosing] to be celibate as a personal choice... isn't the same as mandating that EVERY person who is completed and fulfilled only in a same-sex relationship should be celibate for their ENTIRE lives.[/quote]
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]...men are men and women are women and no mystical union happens when they are together.[/quote]
Make up your mind, silly lady! :D Either the sexual union of two people is nothing, a sneeze, a passing of methane, or else it is too a God-designed magic which is a vital part of "two becoming one flesh". You can't have your snake and beat it too.
Barry,
That thought has occurred to me. I don't think she will be surprised when I decline.
But I still have to decline. And I have to be honest about why. ( I can't just make up some excuse, like my cow got sick or I had to wash the dog)
Paul told us we must always speak the thruth in love.
Richard