The resurrection both of the just and the unjust takes place on the last day but Revelation 20:4-5 separates the resurrection by 1000 years. Which is symbolic?
The resurrection both of the just and the unjust takes place on the last day but Revelation 20:4-5 separates the resurrection by 1000 years. Which is symbolic?
The bodily resurrection of both the just and unjust takes place on the last day.
The 1000 years are symbolic of a period of time beginning at the start of NT church age at the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and will continue until the last day of this world as we now know it.
Revelation 20:3~"And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled, and after that he must be loosed a little season".
The part of this verse which gives people the most problems is the understanding of the thousand years. We read that the angel from heaven~ bound Satan for 1000 years, and some people tend to think, "since it's been more than 1000 years since Christ went to the cross, that can't be the right conclusion". They say that because they are thinking of this chapter as a strictly
literal interpretation even though it is "quite obviously" replete with symbolism. Revelation chapter 20 is not speaking of literal objects or times, (this should not even be debatable) it is speaking
in symbolic terms of very literal happenings and time. There is a difference! It is using symbolic words which man will recognize as representations of what is happening. i.e., the chain is not a literal chain, it represents or
signifies restraint, the key is not a literal key, it represents or
signifies authority and ability, power, etc. All we have to do is look at the rest of the chapter to clearly see this. This angel didn't come down from heaven with a literal key. This angel didn't come with a literal great Chain. Satan
cannot be bound with a literal Chain nor locked up with a literal lock one does not need to be too smart to understand this.
Satan is a spirit being. He must be restrained spiritually by God Himself.
Rather than literal, this Language is representative Spiritual language to illustrate binding, and securing, and the key illustrates He has the power and authority to keep bound, or to unlock and set loose.
So if we are not talking about strictly literal things here, what would make anyone think that the 1000 years must be a literal number of years anymore than the chain to hold Satan that 1000 years was a literal chain?
The answer is Nothing! Nothing
except Church tradition or teachings. It's not literal years! We understand this number 1000 to be symbolic to show us that Satan is being restrained so that he cannot bring this great iniquity and deceive the nations "
for the fullness of God's time." Likewise, the bottomless pit or Abyss signifies a void place of nothing, as fathomless as can be imagined, to hold a spirit.
So why would we pick the 1000 years out of all these symbolic terms and say it must be taken literally or else we are in gross error? It makes no sense! The main reason that some Theologians take this tact is that they have been taught the Jewish fables that when Christ comes, He's going to free the earthly captivity, bring earthly peace, and reign literally on this earth. Believing this, they seek to discredit any view that Christ won't reign on the earth in literal (the middle east) Jerusalem.
Nevertheless, this view is contrary to all other clear passages in scripture. When Christ returns, it will be to gather His people in the heavens to meet Him in the air (commonly called the Rapture), raise the unsaved to stand for Judgment, and to cast Satan in the lake of fire. All scripture consistently indicates this takes place at "The Last Day" and at "The Last Trumpet". There is
no 1000 year reign on this present earth at the second advent of Christ. Believers reign with Christ "now" having been translated from Satan's power of darkness, into this kingdom of Christ. Either that is true, or it is a lie. There is no in between.
When we study scripture we will find that God often uses certain number of relationships to signify things. For example, the number 3 for the purpose or will of God, as in the 3 times Christ prayed, the 3 times the sheet was let down and God said kill and eat, the 3 times Paul sought the Lord that the thorn in the flesh would be removed from him, the 3 times God came seeking fruit on the fig tree, or the 3 days till the Temple was raised up, etc., etc. Likewise, the number 12 representing the congregation, as in the 12 stars, the 12 tribes of Israel, the 12 Apostles, the 12 gates of the city, etc., or the number 7 and it's multiples, 70, 700, 7000 as the "Totality" of whatever is in view. And in this same way the number 10, 100, 1000 is likewise used in a spiritual sense to signifies the fullness of whatever is being spoken about. As an example, as you might say to your wife, "I'll love you for a thousand years". You're not literally putting a number on the time, rather, you're expressing the "fullness" of your Love for her. The 1000 is a symbolic length of time to indicate you'll love her from now till the fullness of time. Whatever that time may literally be, whether it be 10 years, 30 years 63 years, whatever it may be is symbolized by the use of the term a thousand years. And God uses this number in that way in scripture. Also, 666 to represent the NON-ELECT~
Zachariah 13:8,9~And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God."
Two third of a whole is
666~one third is a small remnant among the whole.
This angel has put God's seal on Satan that he cannot be loosed till God looses him. God is in control and Satan will be held in restraint until the fulfilling of time that God has set that the nations be not deceived. Remember in 2nd Thessalonians 2 we read that what was being restrained was the iniquity revealed in Satan and that it would be revealed in its time. God has set that time. How long O Lord? It is not given to us to know the date of Christ's return, but Satan is bound the time that it takes to build the Holy Temple, Christ being the chief cornerstone.
Symbolism:
1000 Years = fullness of time
Seal = God's Security
Bottomless Pit = a expanse, an abyss of captivity
This verse 3 of Revelation chapter 20 is illustrating that when The angel came from Heaven, He bound Satan, and cast him into a fathomless void to bind spirits that he would not be allowed to deceive the nations as he was doing at the first advent of Christ. Now is come salvation and strength, because the accuser of the nations has been cast down, and we are free from the death that hung over us as a result of his having us in bondage. God has sealed him, or literally "secured" him that he cannot be loosed upon the Church until all those who are to be sealed of the nations have been sealed (secured) in their foreheads. The Purpose is clearly that God keep him bound till the appointed time after the testimony of the saints is finished and all Israel is saved. When the Lord sets His seal upon something, you can be sure that it won't get out until "the time" the Lord alone releases him. So like everything else here, this seal is "symbolic" of something being "secured of God". No one secured or sealed of God can loose themselves. And my friends, that includes us, the believers. We are eternally secure (sealed) by God. And since it wasn't by our own good that we were secured, it cannot be by our own good we are held secured. Grace!
The question is often asked, "but why is Satan loosed a little season in the future?" It's because this loosing is a prelude to the second advent of Christ and rapture of His Church. At this set time God judges the unfaithful Church by the release of Satan. Satan marshals his army near the time of the Lord's return and comes against the Church (The camp of the saints). The Saints are overcome by Satan and his false prophets, and the Word trampled under foot, and the "true" gospel is silenced in the Holy Temple. There is a famine of hearing the Word of God, for the lawless man (man who won't obey the laws of God) is seated there refusing to accept God's authority (the scriptures) and thus ruling himself, "as if" he was his own god. The faithful who brought the truth are a torment to these people, so that at this time of falling, the unrighteous rejoice because they control the churches and their voice there is the rule. The true Witness (two witnesses) of the truth is silenced. But their rejoicing only lasts a short while, a little season, because Our Lord will come. That's what happens after the 1000 years after Satan is loosed.
I am well aware that the 1000 years being symbolical goes contrary to the thinking of a lot of people brought up in the premillennialist traditions, (which I was and also 3 Resurrections if I remember correctly) and therefore it is "very hard" for many to turn away from those teachings, but we should be interested in truth, not man's tradition. Belief based on scripture is one thing, but indoctrination based on our teachers theories is another. If someone shows me (by Scripture) where I hold a wrong interpretation, I'd like to think that I will
still check those verses and gladly change my doctrine, giving thanks to the Lord for his giving me the eyes to see. Never will I blindly hold onto doctrine simply because it is what I have been taught. For one simple reason. I understand that The Holy Spirit is the teacher and I am simply the vessel. I must obey God rather than men. Be true to God rather than be true to my ideas, or my teacher's ideas. Faithfulness, is to God, not theologians. Whosoever is our authority, that is who we serve. Likewise, I would hope that all Christians take that very same philosophy in their study of scripture.
: RB Sat Nov 06, 2021 - 04:52:45
The bodily resurrection of both the just and unjust takes place on the last day.
The 1000 years are symbolic of a period of time beginning at the start of NT church age at the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and will continue until the last day of this world as we now know it. The part of this verse which gives people the most problems is the understanding of the thousand years. We read that the angel from heaven~ bound Satan for 1000 years, and some people tend to think, "since it's been more than 1000 years since Christ went to the cross, that can't be the right conclusion". They say that because they are thinking of this chapter as a strictly literal interpretation even though it is "quite obviously" replete with symbolism. Revelation chapter 20 is not speaking of literal objects or times, (this should not even be debatable) it is speaking in symbolic terms of very literal happenings and time. There is a difference! It is using symbolic words which man will recognize as representations of what is happening. i.e., the chain is not a literal chain, it represents or signifies restraint, the key is not a literal key, it represents or signifies authority and ability, power, etc. All we have to do is look at the rest of the chapter to clearly see this. This angel didn't come down from heaven with a literal key. This angel didn't come with a literal great Chain. Satan cannot be bound with a literal Chain nor locked up with a literal lock one does not need to be too smart to understand this. Satan is a spirit being. He must be restrained spiritually by God Himself. Rather than literal, this Language is representative Spiritual language to illustrate binding, and securing, and the key illustrates He has the power and authority to keep bound, or to unlock and set loose.
So if we are not talking about strictly literal things here, what would make anyone think that the 1000 years must be a literal number of years anymore than the chain to hold Satan that 1000 years was a literal chain? The answer is Nothing! Nothing except Church tradition or teachings. It's not literal years! We understand this number 1000 to be symbolic to show us that Satan is being restrained so that he cannot bring this great iniquity and deceive the nations "for the fullness of God's time." Likewise, the bottomless pit or Abyss signifies a void place of nothing, as fathomless as can be imagined, to hold a spirit. So why would we pick the 1000 years out of all these symbolic terms and say it must be taken literally or else we are in gross error? It makes no sense! The main reason that some Theologians take this tact is that they have been taught the Jewish fables that when Christ comes, He's going to free the earthly captivity, bring earthly peace, and reign literally on this earth. Believing this, they seek to discredit any view that Christ won't reign on the earth in literal (the middle east) Jerusalem.
Nevertheless, this view is contrary to all other clear passages in scripture. When Christ returns, it will be to gather His people in the heavens to meet Him in the air (commonly called the Rapture), raise the unsaved to stand for Judgment, and to cast Satan in the lake of fire. All scripture consistently indicates this takes place at "The Last Day" and at "The Last Trumpet". There is no 1000 year reign on this present earth at the second advent of Christ. Believers reign with Christ "now" having been translated from Satan's power of darkness, into this kingdom of Christ. Either that is true, or it is a lie. There is no in between.
When we study scripture we will find that God often uses certain number of relationships to signify things. For example, the number 3 for the purpose or will of God, as in the 3 times Christ prayed, the 3 times the sheet was let down and God said kill and eat, the 3 times Paul sought the Lord that the thorn in the flesh would be removed from him, the 3 times God came seeking fruit on the fig tree, or the 3 days till the Temple was raised up, etc., etc. Likewise, the number 12 representing the congregation, as in the 12 stars, the 12 tribes of Israel, the 12 Apostles, the 12 gates of the city, etc., or the number 7 and it's multiples, 70, 700, 7000 as the "Totality" of whatever is in view. And in this same way the number 10, 100, 1000 is likewise used in a spiritual sense to signifies the fullness of whatever is being spoken about. As an example, as you might say to your wife, "I'll love you for a thousand years". You're not literally putting a number on the time, rather, you're expressing the "fullness" of your Love for her. The 1000 is a symbolic length of time to indicate you'll love her from now till the fullness of time. Whatever that time may literally be, whether it be 10 years, 30 years 63 years, whatever it may be is symbolized by the use of the term a thousand years. And God uses this number in that way in scripture. Also, 666 to represent the NON-ELECT~Two third of a whole is 666~one third is a small remnant among the whole.
This angel has put God's seal on Satan that he cannot be loosed till God looses him. God is in control and Satan will be held in restraint until the fulfilling of time that God has set that the nations be not deceived. Remember in 2nd Thessalonians 2 we read that what was being restrained was the iniquity revealed in Satan and that it would be revealed in its time. God has set that time. How long O Lord? It is not given to us to know the date of Christ's return, but Satan is bound the time that it takes to build the Holy Temple, Christ being the chief cornerstone.
Symbolism:
1000 Years = fullness of time
Seal = God's Security
Bottomless Pit = a expanse, an abyss of captivity
This verse 3 of Revelation chapter 20 is illustrating that when The angel came from Heaven, He bound Satan, and cast him into a fathomless void to bind spirits that he would not be allowed to deceive the nations as he was doing at the first advent of Christ. Now is come salvation and strength, because the accuser of the nations has been cast down, and we are free from the death that hung over us as a result of his having us in bondage. God has sealed him, or literally "secured" him that he cannot be loosed upon the Church until all those who are to be sealed of the nations have been sealed (secured) in their foreheads. The Purpose is clearly that God keep him bound till the appointed time after the testimony of the saints is finished and all Israel is saved. When the Lord sets His seal upon something, you can be sure that it won't get out until "the time" the Lord alone releases him. So like everything else here, this seal is "symbolic" of something being "secured of God". No one secured or sealed of God can loose themselves. And my friends, that includes us, the believers. We are eternally secure (sealed) by God. And since it wasn't by our own good that we were secured, it cannot be by our own good we are held secured. Grace!
The question is often asked, "but why is Satan loosed a little season in the future?" It's because this loosing is a prelude to the second advent of Christ and rapture of His Church. At this set time God judges the unfaithful Church by the release of Satan. Satan marshals his army near the time of the Lord's return and comes against the Church (The camp of the saints). The Saints are overcome by Satan and his false prophets, and the Word trampled under foot, and the "true" gospel is silenced in the Holy Temple. There is a famine of hearing the Word of God, for the lawless man (man who won't obey the laws of God) is seated there refusing to accept God's authority (the scriptures) and thus ruling himself, "as if" he was his own god. The faithful who brought the truth are a torment to these people, so that at this time of falling, the unrighteous rejoice because they control the churches and their voice there is the rule. The true Witness (two witnesses) of the truth is silenced. But their rejoicing only lasts a short while, a little season, because Our Lord will come. That's what happens after the 1000 years after Satan is loosed.
I am well aware that the 1000 years being symbolical goes contrary to the thinking of a lot of people brought up in the premillennialist traditions, (which I was and also 3 Resurrections if I remember correctly) and therefore it is "very hard" for many to turn away from those teachings, but we should be interested in truth, not man's tradition. Belief based on scripture is one thing, but indoctrination based on our teachers theories is another. If someone shows me (by Scripture) where I hold a wrong interpretation, I'd like to think that I will still check those verses and gladly change my doctrine, giving thanks to the Lord for his giving me the eyes to see. Never will I blindly hold onto doctrine simply because it is what I have been taught. For one simple reason. I understand that The Holy Spirit is the teacher and I am simply the vessel. I must obey God rather than men. Be true to God rather than be true to my ideas, or my teacher's ideas. Faithfulness, is to God, not theologians. Whosoever is our authority, that is who we serve. Likewise, I would hope that all Christians take that very same philosophy in their study of scripture.
I agree the Last Day is literal and the 1000 years represent something. I believe the Last Day was the last day Jesus was in the heart of the earth and the "thousand" years denotes the earthly life of believers, just like the cattle on a "thousand" hills denotes God's people.
We don't have to guess at the meaning of a "thousand years" because the bible tells us EXACTLY what it is. The bible will always interpret the bible.
2Pe_3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that
one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
According to Peter, one day in the believers life IS AS or equal to a thousand years. For whatever reason, probably because it doesn't fit their doctrine, most people will completely blow that off and relegate it to a meaningless verse about a "long period of time".
: Rob Sat Nov 06, 2021 - 07:16:38
I agree the Last Day is literal and the 1000 years represent something. I believe the Last Day was the last day Jesus was in the heart of the earth and the "thousand" years denotes the earthly life of believers,
::doh:: Oh, brother
just like the cattle on a "thousand" hills denotes God's people.
We don't have to guess at the meaning of a "thousand years" because the bible tells us EXACTLY what it is. The bible will always interpret the bible.
BUT man will not always interpret their personal choice of translations properly.
2Pe_3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
According to Peter, one day in the believers life IS AS or equal to a thousand years. For whatever reason, probably because it doesn't fit their doctrine, most people will completely blow that off and relegate it to a meaningless verse about a "long period of time".
Peter is simply reminding us that God is working on a different timetable.
Are you a dad Rob? How many times have your kid(s) asked, when enroute to somewhere... "When will we get there?" and you have said "Soon". You are aware that soon to a kid means within 5 minutes or so and to an adult it can be much longer.
This 1000 years is an example of how God views time. It is an example of the vast differences between eternal living and those who are given a limited number of years. It was God who set time into motion for those on earth when he created
the system. There is no reason to believe that the statement thate with God 1000 years is a day means anynore then what it says.
God's time in heaven IS NOT the same as what he created for us....
NOTE: It says
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Nothing more, nothing less
: Rella Sat Nov 06, 2021 - 08:13:16
Are you a dad Rob? How many times have your kid(s) asked, when enroute to somewhere... "When will we get there?" and you have said "Soon". You are aware that soon to a kid means within 5 minutes or so and to an adult it can be much longer.
This 1000 years is an example of how God views time. It is an example of the vast differences between eternal living and those who are given a limited number of years. It was God who set time into motion for those on earth when he created
the system. There is no reason to believe that the statement thate with God 1000 years is a day means anynore then what it says.
God's time in heaven IS NOT the same as what he created for us....
NOTE: It says
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Nothing more, nothing less
It means exactly what it says "one day is with the Lord as a thousand years". So whenever we encounter "a thousand years" in our reading the only leeway we have is to determine if it's literally 1000 years or is it one day. What we CAN NOT do is replace the words with our own words.
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
The book of Revelation was written for the church of Christ, admitted to have been written no earlier than 70 AD by almost all, and probably no earlier than 90 AD by many. In any case quite some time after our Lord and Saviors life, death, resurrection, and ascension. Placing the thousand years of Rev 20 symbolically as the entire new covenant era, causes problems, concerning its testimony regarding the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan. Both of the following quoted verses cannot be true at the same time for new covenant Humanity. The Devil cannot be bound for this entire time and unable to deceive the nations as some suggest, and also deceive the entire world during the same time frame.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. 13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
The Devil cannot be both bound that he should deceive the nations no more, and deceiving the whole world while persecuting the church of Christ at the same time. The thousand years is not the new covenant era established by our Savior.
Rev. 20&21 The thousand years and the new Jerusalem
Rev 20: 1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
We will now examine the thousand year period of Rev. 20. A correct understanding of this time period is very important. Verses one through three, are referring of course to the leader of the lost, Satan himself. During this thousand year period, Satan is bound in the bottomless pit. We will discuss just what the bottomless pit is after we finish with the thousand year period. Not only is Satan bound during this thousand years, but he is not able to deceive the nations anymore during this same time. The scriptures themselves will tell us why this is so.
Verse four, switches the topic to that of the saved during this same thousand years. It states that the judgment was given unto them. The saints then, are involved in the work of judgment during this thousand year period. Paul makes reference to this event in 1 Corinthians.
I Corinthians 4:5
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
I Corinthians 6:2
Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3
Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
Of course this judgment cannot be about who will, or will not have eternal life. This question has already been answered, since the saved are in heaven with Christ judging the world. This is why the saints are caught up in the air to meet Christ when He returns, and will ever be with Him (1Th 4:14-18). During this thousand years, the saints are in heaven with Christ who has taken them there. Later, the wicked will surround the beloved city, or New Jerusalem, apparently after it descends from heaven down to earth (Rev. 21:1-5), at the end of the thousand years.
The judgment that the saints are involved in is apparently for the purpose of understanding why or why not, certain people are or are not in heaven with the saved. No doubt God will answer all the questions of the saints during these thousand years. Surely there will be questions from the saints regarding who is, and who is not there. In the end though, every knee will bow and confess that Christ is the righteous judge of all (Rom. 14:10&11).
Verse five points out that the rest of the dead, that is those who were not saved, did not live again until the thousand years were finished. Then it says that this is the first resurrection. That is not to say that the rest of the dead not living again for a thousand years is the first resurrection, for this would make no sense at all. Rather, that those who were involved in judging the world during this thousand years were part of the first resurrection, that is, the resurrection of the saved.
Verse six says that those who are saved and take part in the first resurrection are blessed and holy. It also points out that the second death will have no power over them. For them, death has been swallowed up in victory, in and through their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. They shall be priests of God and reign with Him during this thousand year period.
Verses seven through fifteen point out what will happen to the wicked at the end of this thousand year period. This begins with Satan being let loose again to deceive the nations. In order for this to take place, the lost who have been dead during this thousand year period (verse 5), must be resurrected. Thus having died once either naturally before Christ's coming or at Christ's coming (Luke 17:28-30, 2 Th. 2:8, Rev. 6:14-17), they will die again at the second death, when they come up on the beloved city with their leader Satan. That both the saved and the wicked will be resurrected, was pointed out by Christ Himself when here on earth.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth;
they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.The resurrection of life is at the beginning of the thousand years. The resurrection of damnation is at the end of the thousand years.
The wicked surround the beloved city, and fire comes down from God and devours them (verse 9). This is the lake of fire, where the Devil, the Beast, and the False prophet are. It is where all those whose names are not written in the book of life will end up, and die the second death (verses 13-15). The book of life, from which all these people were judged, must be the book that the saints were examining during this thousand year period. This would be the judgment that they were involved in (verses 11&12).
Now to the definition of the bottomless pit into which Satan was cast. The definition of which, will reveal that the lost are dead during this thousand year period. Let us look at some scriptures to see what a bottomless pit might represent.
Job 17:13 If I wait,
the grave is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness. 14 I have said to corruption, Thou art my father: to the worm, Thou art my mother, and my sister. 15 And where is now my hope? as for my hope, who shall see it? 16
They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in the dust.Psalm 30:3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from
the grave: thou hast kept me alive,
that I should not go down to the pit.Proverbs 1:11 If they say, Come with us, let us lay wait for blood, let us lurk privily for the innocent without cause: 12 Let us swallow them up alive
as the grave; and whole,
as those that go down into the pit:Isaiah 38:17 Behold, for peace I had great bitterness: but thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from
the pit of corruption: for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back. 18 For the
grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.Jeremiah 41:7 And it was so, when they came into the midst of the city, that Ishmael the son of Nethaniah
slew them, and cast them into the midst of the pit, he, and the men that were with him.
9 Now
the pit wherein Ishmael had cast all the
dead bodies of the men, whom he had slain because of Gedaliah, was it which Asa the king had made for fear of Baasha king of Israel: and Ishmael the son of Nethaniah
filled it with them that were slain.In the bible, a pit is very often associated with the grave, or a place to put the dead. A bottomless pit then, would undoubtedly represent an enormous grave, filled with countless people. If the bible tells us that all the lost will be slain when Christ returns the second time, which it does, then this world would be one massive grave. The dead bodies of countless millions strewn all over it. This is in fact where Satan is bound for this thousand years, while the saved are in heaven going over the book of life, he is here with nothing but the dead. Thus Satan can no longer deceive the nations during this thousand years, for there are no nations or peoples to deceive. Jeremiah speaks of the world in this condition.
Jer 25:30 Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes,
against all the inhabitants of the earth. 31 A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth;
for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh;
he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD. 32 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold,
evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth. 33
And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.Jer 4: 23 I beheld the earth, and, lo,
it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. 24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. 25 I beheld, and, lo,
there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. 26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness,
and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.Isaiah not only spoke of this condition of the earth, but prophesied of the very things we are discussing.
Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15
Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. 16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; 17
That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? 18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house. 19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet. 20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.Though all the kings and people will be slain, yet Satan will not join them in burial. Though he be in the pit with them, the bottomless pit, yet he will not be given the rest of the sleep of the dead. He will live for a thousand years alone with no one to deceive, and nothing to do but ponder the effects of the works of his own hands. Ever looking forward to the judgment, and his destruction at the end of the thousand years.
Isaiah 24:18 And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open,
and the foundations of the earth do shake. 19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly. 20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again. 21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. 22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited. 23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.
Here again, Isaiah is referring to the destruction of the earth, and the death of the wicked. When the wicked are gathered together in the pit, that is dead, and shut up in death as in prison (Job3:11-18, Isa. 53:8), then they will be visited after many days. That many days is the thousand years that we are discussing, and it will not be well for them when they are visited.
Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. 9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. 16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. 17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. 18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. 19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; 20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass. 22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
I want to be in that city, don't you?
"The Last Day" appears only in the book of John, where it is applied ONLY to the resurrection of the saints; not of the wicked dead.
How do you figure the resurrection of the wicked dead to be on that day?
Jarrod
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Sun Nov 21, 2021 - 22:16:29
"The Last Day" appears only in the book of John, where it is applied ONLY to the resurrection of the saints; not of the wicked dead.
How do you figure the resurrection of the wicked dead to be on that day?
Jarrod
John 12:48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.
: 4WD Mon Nov 22, 2021 - 04:43:37
John 12:48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.
There's no resurrection in that passage. Jesus is speaking to a very-much-alive crowd of Jews.
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Mon Nov 22, 2021 - 07:58:38
There's no resurrection in that passage. Jesus is speaking to a very-much-alive crowd of Jews.
And will those very-much-alive crowd of Jews still be alive on that last day when they are judged or will they be of the resurrection?
: 4WD Mon Nov 22, 2021 - 09:04:06
And will those very-much-alive crowd of Jews still be alive on that last day when they are judged or will they be of the resurrection?
You are assuming that event is in the future still. That generation was indeed judged, already. And yes, they were alive for it.
So there is a different last day for each and every person? I am not sure I get your point. It seems to me that the entire passage of John 12:44-50 relates to the "day of judgment" at the resurrection on Jesus' return. But perhaps that is just me.
: 4WD Tue Nov 23, 2021 - 05:37:41
So there is a different last day for each and every person? I am not sure I get your point. It seems to me that the entire passage of John 12:44-50 relates to the "day of judgment" at the resurrection on Jesus' return. But perhaps that is just me.
There was a Last Day for Judah, and they were there for it.
: Rob Fri Nov 05, 2021 - 10:27:38
The resurrection both of the just and the unjust takes place on the last day but Revelation 20:4-5 separates the resurrection by 1000 years. Which is symbolic?
Your question cannot be adequately answered without having to filter out a lot of false doctrine and gibberish that has infected Christian doctrine since Revelation was written.
Does the reader possess an adequate filter to separate out the nonsense or does the reader simply believe everything that's written?
Bear in mind the devil and its minions uses scripture constantly to falsify its purposes in human minds. Even Jesus was tempted by the devil's use of scripture. Posts here will inevitably quote scripture used as religious slogans or buzz words. Others will cite TV preachers and internet celebrities. Paul wrote we ought not follow teachers as though they were rock star religious celebrities, yet many Christians today do exactly that. (1 Corinthians 3:4)
Many falsely claim they are led of the spirit to determine truth from falsehood. As bad as it may be to follow celebrities this is worse. Do you not know that we are advised to TEST the spirits? (1 John 4:1) What filter do we employ for this testing? How about using the Bible? God's Word is self-interpreting, which means it doesn't take a rocket scientist to decipher its meaning. It does, however, require diligent study. (2 Tim 2:15) That sort of study means the entire Bible, not just the letters of Paul or the gospel of John. Many have been led of a false spirit into doctrines of demons - believing they were doing God a service. (John 16:2)
History teaches as well as any college professor. For instance, the one thousand year period spoken of in the New Testament is often referred to as the Millennium. Historically our church leaders have argued about it for nearly two thousand years. Does Jesus return at the beginning of the Millennium at the end of the Millennium or is there no real thousand year period at all?
Amillenialism teaches there's no real return of Christ to earth. It's all symbolism and not to be expected in actuality.
PreMillenialism teaches the reentry of Christ into the world at the beginning of a thousand year reign of terror over the nations. (Rev 19:15)
Post Millenialism teaches the return of Jesus AFTER a thousand year reign of Christian ethics on the planet.
Following the end of WWI most theologians abandoned the post-millennial idea. It had become apparent the entire world would never be evangelized into church membership. Human nature proved itself to be so self-destructive that the hope of the gospel as a religious benchmark was deemed an impossibility.
As a consequence the church of the twenty-first century is left with two points of view; Amillenialism and PreMillenialism.
The addition of the heretical doctrine of the rapture only confuses the debate. According to Biblically illiterate American Protestants the rapture will further subDivide the millennial period into three or four sections. The dogma is so confused that many believe Jesus will return to earth two, three or four times before matters are settled.
All of this is purely academic as the church is presently withering on the vine and will be nearly extinct by the year 2050 - assuming statistics provide an accurate projection of trends.
(*) According to scripture Jesus doesn't return to earth to save the church anyway. (John 19:14) The
King of the Jews returns to earth to save ISRAEL. (John 11:51)
All our heated discussions about the millennium are pointless since there is no accurate and reliable method to filter out all the garbage that's being tossed about as interpretations. Everybody thinks they're a prophet with the result that nobody knows what they're talking about.
Until and unless a filter is used to sort out the mess of doctrines that are flying about, the bulk of Christians will have to make do with Jesus' advice.
Be ready.that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
(*) According to PEW and Gallup national surveys, regular church attendance measured as once per month declined in 2010 to 50% of 1948 levels. Projections of that rate of decline suggest regular attendance will shrivel to 10% by the year 2050.
: Choir Loft Tue Dec 21, 2021 - 11:42:26
Amillenialism teaches there's no real return of Christ to earth. It's all symbolism and not to be expected in actuality.
Once again you demonstrate that you do not know what you are talking about. The truth is that amillennialism treats the number 1000 as symbolic as are most other numbers in Revelation; amillennialism posits that the 1000 years consists of the time between the First and Second comings of Christ. Therefore, we are even now living in the millennium. There are some amillennialists who present the beginning of the millennium with the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and some who present the beginning with the events at Pentecost. Both of those seem to me to be moot points.
Choir Loft, I've been looking for you. I made this thread for you to post on, so we can discuss this subject.
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/how-can-a-man-be-saved-for-sin-and-condemnation/
: Choir Loft Tue Dec 21, 2021 - 11:42:26Amillenialism teaches there's no real return of Christ to earth. It's all symbolism and not to be expected in actuality.
4WD hit the nail on the head when he said:
: 4WD on: Yesterday at 12:58:05Once again you demonstrate that you do not know what you are talking about. The truth is that amillennialism treats the number 1000 as symbolic as are most other numbers in Revelation; amillennialism posits that the 1000 years consists of the time between the First and Second comings of Christ. Therefore, we are even now living in the millennium. There are some amillennialists who present the beginning of the millennium with the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and some who present the beginning with the events at Pentecost. Both of those seem to me to be moot points.
I will add this: Amillennialism is broken down into three or even four different groups among them~the preterist among them teach there is no real return of Christ to earth, but they make up a very small group of Amillennialism.
The Historical amillennialist group to teach a personal coming of Christ to this earth~but they are half baked preterist.
The Idealist amillennialist like myself clearly teaches a visibly second coming of Jesus Christ to gather together his elect from the four winds of heaven.
There's another form of amillennialist on this forum~ 3 Resurrections he can speak for himself if he so desires to do so.
: Choir Loft on: Yesterday at 11:42:26According to scripture Jesus doesn't return to earth to save the church anyway. (John 19:14) The King of the Jews returns to earth to save ISRAEL. (John 11:51)
No sir, that's according to
your private intrepretation.
Jesus Christ comes back to deliver HIS CHURCH from the destruction of the antichrist spirit of the last days that is even now present in this world
gaining momentum at a very fast pace.
Revelation 20:9~"And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
The
only beloved city is the
new Jerusalem made up of people from every nation under heaven.
There are
no promises to natural Israel after the flesh, only to Israel after the Spirit of God. Of course, this has always been the case even in the OT. ::backontopic::
: 4WD Tue Dec 21, 2021 - 12:58:05
Once again you demonstrate that you do not know what you are talking about. The truth is that amillennialism treats the number 1000 as symbolic as are most other numbers in Revelation; amillennialism posits that the 1000 years consists of the time between the First and Second comings of Christ. Therefore, we are even now living in the millennium. There are some amillennialists who present the beginning of the millennium with the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and some who present the beginning with the events at Pentecost. Both of those seem to me to be moot points.
You really don't need to begin your post with an insult. I DO know what I wrote about.
My purpose was to define the characteristics of the argument, not to justify one point or another. If you were half as clever as you think you are you'd have picked up on that.
My POINT was to seek and define a FILTER to all the garbage doctrine that's collected over the last two thousand years. Such a filter would begin with definitions of terms. People cannot decide what is true or not until and unless they know the meaning of the words they use. Salvation, for example, means totally different things to people of different denominations and disciplines. It's all about words and their meaning.
Returning to your definition of amillennialism; the BASIC definition of the term describes nothing based upon reality. It's entirely irrelevant to the real world. According to this term there will be no earthly reign of the King of Kings and no political system to back it up. I personally disagree with this dogma, but cannot bury it in the sand as if it didn't exist.
There are aberrations to almost any philosophical construction invented by the mind of man. The millennium is one of them. There is so much trash incorporated into the notion that one can barely recognize truth in any of it. The only people who profit by it are those who write books and sponsor videos on the internet. They collect shovels full of loot from gullible people who buy their fantasies. It can be truly said that these persons have one hand on the Bible and the other in someone else's pocket. Meanwhile a lot of people go astray - being greatly concerned about matters that are completely unimportant. The millennium is one of them.
that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
Choir Loft, I only pointed out that you, in your attempt to teach the rest of us, were wrong. You made an explicit statement that was incorrect. You made that incorrect statement either because you were malicious, or you simply did not know the truth. I do not think you are malicious.
: Choir Loft Wed Dec 22, 2021 - 07:02:33
You really don't need to begin your post with an insult. I DO know what I wrote about.
So you know what you wrote about was wrong? Interesting.
: Choir LoftMy purpose was to define the characteristics of the argument, not to justify one point or another. If you were half as clever as you think you are you'd have picked up on that.
Why would you use an inaccuracy to define the characteristics of the argument? That doesn't seem very clever at all.
: Choir LoftAll our heated discussions about the millennium are pointless since there is no accurate and reliable method to filter out all the garbage that's being tossed about as interpretations. Everybody thinks they're a prophet with the result that nobody knows what they're talking about.
What a strange thing to say about God's word. If you truly believe that I wonder how you support anything that you believe.
: RB Wed Dec 22, 2021 - 04:06:00
. . .
Jesus Christ comes back to deliver HIS CHURCH from the destruction of the antichrist spirit of the last days that is even now present in this world gaining momentum at a very fast pace. The only beloved city is the new Jerusalem made up of people from every nation under heaven.
There are no promises to natural Israel after the flesh, only to Israel after the Spirit of God. Of course, this has always been the case even in the OT.
You are eager to call me a liar, but provide nothing of substance to back up your opinion.
I quoted scripture to PROVE that Jesus, the King of the Jews, died for the nation of Israel. He didn't die for the church. The Bible does not allude to the church in this regard at all. In point of fact, when a man or woman surrenders to the Lordship of Christ he or she BECOMES A JEW. (Romans 2:29)
Your Christian anti-semitism is showing and it's an ugly thing to behold.
The doctrine of Supersessionism or Replacement Theology was born of the Vatican and predicted by both Daniel and Christ. God has NEVER abandoned His people Israel. I can provide numerous scripture references as well as historic accuracy to back this up, but I doubt you or anyone else would appreciate it. Nobody really cares about the Bible except to use snippets of it to justify their hatred of Jews and the State of Israel (which is a reality whether you like it or not).
Thank God for His Torah and God Bless Israel who He has loved. (Genesis 12:3)
that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
: 4WD Wed Dec 22, 2021 - 07:53:51
What a strange thing to say about God's word. If you truly believe that I wonder how you support anything that you believe.
The millennium is an extraneous point of Biblical reference. It does NOT apply to salvation. It does NOT encourage spiritual responsibility. It does NOTHING to add to the normal Christian life.
What it does do is reinforce Roman Catholic dogma nearly six hundred years old and that is something I cannot subscribe to.
Biblical illiteracy notwithstanding, most Christians follow in lock step with Vatican dogma as per the warnings of Daniel and Jesus Christ.
that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
: Choir Loft Wed Dec 22, 2021 - 08:08:38
The millennium is an extraneous point of Biblical reference. It does NOT apply to salvation. It does NOT encourage spiritual responsibility. It does NOTHING to add to the normal Christian life.
What it does do is reinforce Roman Catholic dogma nearly six hundred years old and that is something I cannot subscribe to.
Biblical illiteracy notwithstanding, most Christians follow in lock step with Vatican dogma as per the warnings of Daniel and Jesus Christ.
that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
Maybe you should just quit hollering from the choir loft and treat the whole of God's word with the importance it rightly deserves. That you would claim that what God said about something, about anything actually, is "an extraneous point of biblical reference" is truly bazaar.
: Choir Loft Wed Dec 22, 2021 - 08:05:33You are eager to call me a liar, but provide nothing of substance to back up your opinion.
Your words, not mine~I have no desire to call any man a liar, a man's doctrine will speak for itself whether or not he is a liar, or if he/she speaks the truth.
: Choir Loft on: Today at 08:05:33 I quoted scripture to PROVE that Jesus, the King of the Jews, died for the nation of Israel. He didn't die for the church. The Bible does not allude to the church in this regard at all.
God's word which is the truth said otherwise.
: Paul Jews by natureActs 20:28~"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
One of your own prophets said otherwise:
: Caiaphas, being the high priestJohn 11:49-52~"And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
Jesus died for the CHURCH made up of Jews and Gentiles.
So, I with Caiaphas say to you as he did to the Jews......
Ye know nothing at all, Nor consider..........
There are so many more that can be given.
: Choir Loft on: Today at 08:05:33Your Christian anti-semitism is showing and it's an ugly thing to behold
No, my Christian faith understands we are indebted to the faithful Jews of the past, beginning with our father Abraham~ we just refuse to give our promises (the elect Jews and Gentiles) to a nation that rejects Jesus Christ and the New Covenant sealed with the blood of our Saviour.
: Choir Loft on: Today at 08:05:33Thank God for His Torah and God Bless Israel who He has loved. (Genesis 12:3)
The law IS good, holy, and spiritual so much so, no man could ever live in perfect obedience to the Law, EXCEPT one, Jesus Christ who we trust in as a perfect surety for God's people. HE IS the righteousness of God provided for God's elect, revealed in the gospel.
The Israel that God loves is seen here:
: Paul a Jew by natureGalatians 6:16~"And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
The Israel of God are the children of God's promises beginning with Genesis 12 and explain to us by Paul in Romans 9.
: Paul a Jew by natureRomans 9:1-8~"I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
So, it is men like you that are truly guilty of the doctrine of Supersessionism or Replacement Theology~by trying to replace the elect Jews and Gentiles with unbelieving Jews who reject the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ! Since Christ, for the most part, Gentiles have followed Christ and proclaimed him to the world.
I would not deny that the Gentiles like the Jews of old have apostate from the truth as a whole, which puts us very close to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Previously posted -----
it is men like you that are truly guilty of the doctrine of Supersessionism or Replacement Theology~by trying to replace the elect Jews and Gentiles with unbelieving Jews who reject the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ!
* * * *
Your statement is laughable in its ignorance. Hateful in its anti-Semitic arrogance. Would you PLEASE refer to a dictionary when you throw around multi-syllable words and the convoluted meanings you mistakenly represent. PLEASE STUDY - SOMETHING. This is a perfect example of the theme of my accusations of post-protestant churches today. They know not of which they speak and write. Not for nothing do statistics tell us that American Christians know LESS of their own religion than anyone else. They are only fooling themselves with their religious slogans, buzz words, and repititions of nonsensical rubbish. They are fooling themselves because they know not of what they speak or write.
Definitions of words are critical for understanding.
Replacement Theology or Supersessionism refers to the false notion that the church has replaced Israel as God's elect. In truth it's not the other way around as anti-Semitic Christians assert. Hating Jews doesn't make a dogma truth. It only proves demonic sources. The Bible promises that God will NEVER abandon His people Israel. Even the most cursory review of the old testament (Tanakh) will reveal that promise. Please please please familiarize yourself with words and their definitions. If you were a student in my class I'd give you an F for stubborn refusal to learn the simplest of lessons. LOOK UP THE WORD. PLEASE. WE CANNOT HAVE ANYTHING APPROACHING AN INTELLIGENT DISCUSSION UNLESS WORD DEFINITIONS ARE AGREED UPON. Do some homework. Stop making things up to justify hatred of Jews, Jewish LAW and the old testament in general.
As we explore the roots of the doctrine we discover (provided we are so motivated to actually LEARN something) Replacement Theology was invented by the Roman Catholic church. In fact MOST of what post protestant churches believe to be true - isn't. Most of it is a demonic representation of the Vatican to oppose the protestant reformation. It even goes so far as walking in the church front door on Sunday morning. Violation of the 4th commandment is still a SIN.
Remember the Sabbath Day (Shabbat) to keep it holy. - Exodus 20:8 <---- This is God's Word, God's commandment. The sabbath day is Saturday, not Sunday.
We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday." -Rev. Peter Geiermann C.SS.R., The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50 <--- doctrine of demons sponsored by the RCC
He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. - Daniel 7:25 Prediction that the anti-Christ system will attempt to usurp God's Holy LAW.
Reformation fathers such as Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Tyndale and all the rest OPPOSED Replacement Theology as asserted by the RCC. THEY KNEW as post protestant ignorant churches DO NOT, that Israel was and is the oracle of God CHOSEN from the foundation of the world to bless the nations with God's LAW and the salvation it points to. Those who become Christians become Jews in God's eyes. They are adopted into the family of people God has blessed with His love and affection. They do NOT join a church !!!!!
Returning once again to the 1,000 years mentioned in the Bible, a strict interpretation reveals that NOTHING will exist on the surface of the earth during that period. Arguments suggesting some sort of global religious government at that time are supurious manifestations of fantasy.
The level of hatred toward Jews and the State of Israel is becoming more intense daily. Attacks against synagogues by Christian zealots are increasing in number all over the world. The theology of the tribulation has been highjacked by post protestant church folk to glorify a SECOND HOLOCAUST OF MURDER UPON JEWS. Are you proud of this attitude? I for one am horrified that any civilized person, much less one that calls themselves by the name of the Son of God should embrace murder as a method to advance the gospel. No one in his right mind would give an ounce of allegiance to such an inhuman ideology and to people who suggest the advance of their religious doctrine is justified by murder of innocent Jews. Instead of shame and revulsion a lot of church people smile and act as though they were doing God a favor.
This attitude is disgusting in the extreme.
The proper answer and solution to such a filthy ideology is to follow Timothy's advice - to STUDY to show one's self approved. To date the church is shriveling in regular attendance because thinking people, people with conscience, judge the present church doctrines as filth and rubbish worthy of rejection. Don't blame me for this. Consult the numbers.
According to PEW and Gallup statistical polls regular once a month attendance in American churches fell in 2010 to 50% of 1948 levels. By the year 2050 the projected trend will result in 10% attendance. Is this MY FAULT? It is not. Is this GOD'S FAULT? It is not. Is this the fault of Biblically illiterate ignorant people who profess faith in Christ, but deny His Lordship and His Kingship over His Own People? Yes, it certainly is.
Let us begin again with a clean pure assessment of what it is we find in God's Holy Word - beginning with the LAW of the old testament, for that is where the Lord of Hosts led His people after delivering them from bondage. It is the LAW that points to clean living with each other, the LAW that points to Christ and the LAW that defines how we ought to live to please God WHO GAVE IT TO THE WORLD. Let us cease worshipping lawLESSness in our churches and embrace REPENTANCE.
The purpose of the LAW is to convince us we need to REPENT of our SINS and wickedness, one of which is to lose false doctrines such as those of the millennium.
Will Christ return to a world riddled with SIN and a church convinced of its own righteousness or will He return to a people gathered unto Him and called by His Name - ISRAEL.
"I will bless those who bless you (Israel) and curse those who curse you. In you (Israel) all the families of the earth will be blessed." - God as quoted in Genesis 12:3
that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
Back to the original question of the post...
It is not a question of the millennium and the last day being EITHER symbolic or NOT being symbolic. As many other texts in scripture...it is BOTH symbolic AND literal at the same time. Just as the literal number of 12 apostles became the symbolic foundation of the New Jerusalem, which is also composed of literal, living bodies of believers, and is also symbolic of the holy city of God's presence among mankind.
The literal time period of a thousand years for the millennium is quite simple to pin down when we compare Revelation with itself. According to Revelation 20:3 and 7, we know that Satan was supposed to be loosed on earth from his restricting chain FOR ONLY A "LITTLE SEASON" when the millennium period had "expired" or was "finished". This is a specific point on the calendar when the millennium came to an end - not a vague, indeterminate state of things in this world with no precise ending or beginning.
Compare this loosing of Satan in Revelation 20:3 and 7 to what John wrote elsewhere about Satan's loosing on earth. He claimed in Revelation 12:12 that Satan had already come down to the earth with great anger, knowing that his "SHORT TIME" of operating in this world would not last for long. If John said that Satan was ALREADY loosed into the world for that same "SHORT TIME", (the "LITTLE SEASON" at the millennium's end), then this tells us that the millennium was already over and done with by the time John was writing Revelation.
The millennium came to an end when Satan was cast out of heaven with his angels in Revelation 12. This was accomplished when Christ ascended to heaven on the morning after His resurrection. Because all the legal requirements for the saints' justification had been met by Christ's actions on our behalf, the "accuser of the brethren" didn't have a leg to stand on in heaven's court anymore. After that point, Satan and his angels were banned from heaven's realm for all time; cast down to earth for Satan's last, desperate attempt to persecute the saints during his "short time" of being loosed on earth. This "short time" or "little season" lasted from the year AD 33 until AD 66 when he and his angels finally became imprisoned in the city of Jerusalem, as Isaiah 24:21-23 had foretold. God used that location of the city of Jerusalem for the destruction of Satan and his angels, along with every unclean spirit passing out of the land at that point, as Zechariah 13:2 had foretold would happen along with the destruction of AD 70 besieged Jerusalem.
The symbolism behind this very literal thousand-years millennium was the entire period of a physical temple worship system in Israel, which began ever since Solomon had laid the foundation stone of the Temple back in 968/967 BC. It served its purpose for the time being, and helped to bring the knowledge of the God of Israel into repute among the nations, thus limiting Satan's deception. But once Christ at His resurrection became the True Foundation Stone of the True Temple NOT made with hands, the period of this physical temple worship system had truly "finished" and "expired".
: 3 Resurrections Sat Jan 01, 2022 - 10:47:20
Back to the original question of the post...
It is not a question of the millennium and the last day being EITHER symbolic or NOT being symbolic. As many other texts in scripture...it is BOTH symbolic AND literal at the same time. Just as the literal number of 12 apostles became the symbolic foundation of the New Jerusalem, which is also composed of literal, living bodies of believers, and is also symbolic of the holy city of God's presence among mankind.
The literal time period of a thousand years for the millennium is quite simple to pin down when we compare Revelation with itself. According to Revelation 20:3 and 7, we know that Satan was supposed to be loosed on earth from his restricting chain FOR ONLY A "LITTLE SEASON" when the millennium period had "expired" or was "finished". This is a specific point on the calendar when the millennium came to an end - not a vague, indeterminate state of things in this world with no precise ending or beginning.
Compare this loosing of Satan in Revelation 20:3 and 7 to what John wrote elsewhere about Satan's loosing on earth. He claimed in Revelation 12:12 that Satan had already come down to the earth with great anger, knowing that his "SHORT TIME" of operating in this world would not last for long. If John said that Satan was ALREADY loosed into the world for that same "SHORT TIME", (the "LITTLE SEASON" at the millennium's end), then this tells us that the millennium was already over and done with by the time John was writing Revelation.
The millennium came to an end when Satan was cast out of heaven with his angels in Revelation 12. This was accomplished when Christ ascended to heaven on the morning after His resurrection. Because all the legal requirements for the saints' justification had been met by Christ's actions on our behalf, the "accuser of the brethren" didn't have a leg to stand on in heaven's court anymore. After that point, Satan and his angels were banned from heaven's realm for all time; cast down to earth for Satan's last, desperate attempt to persecute the saints during his "short time" of being loosed on earth. This "short time" or "little season" lasted from the year AD 33 until AD 66 when he and his angels finally became imprisoned in the city of Jerusalem, as Isaiah 24:21-23 had foretold. God used that location of the city of Jerusalem for the destruction of Satan and his angels, along with every unclean spirit passing out of the land at that point, as Zechariah 13:2 had foretold would happen along with the destruction of AD 70 besieged Jerusalem.
The symbolism behind this very literal thousand-years millennium was the entire period of a physical temple worship system in Israel, which began ever since Solomon had laid the foundation stone of the Temple back in 968/967 BC. It served its purpose for the time being, and helped to bring the knowledge of the God of Israel into repute among the nations, thus limiting Satan's deception. But once Christ at His resurrection became the True Foundation Stone of the True Temple NOT made with hands, the period of this physical temple worship system had truly "finished" and "expired".
::doh::
Rella, head slapping is not exactly a coherent response that can offer evidence against the scripture texts I supplied. If you disagree, then you should be able to use your very well-honed verbal skills to refute what I've said. Not that you are required to do this, but it doesn't validate your views to offer nothing substantive from scripture to contradict what I've said. Got anything better to provide?
: 3 Resurrections Sat Jan 01, 2022 - 11:45:12
Rella, head slapping is not exactly a coherent response that can offer evidence against the scripture texts I supplied. If you disagree, then you should be able to use your very well-honed verbal skills to refute what I've said. Not that you are required to do this, but it doesn't validate your views to offer nothing substantive from scripture to contradict what I've said. Got anything better to provide? ( ::eek:: Ummm, Yes )
Hi 3Rs,
Happy New Year,
Not a great deal of time at the moment but as usual you place a lot into you replies and I just wanted to let you know that you have been read and as usual I do not agree .
Let me start with your
" He claimed in Revelation 12:12 that Satan had already come down to the earth with great anger, knowing that his "SHORT TIME" of operating in this world would not last for long"
There is that pesky "short time" thing again.
The actual quote ( from one translation) is Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
If you would read the entire chapter you would see it was not voluntary that Satan came down to earth
We are told about the war Michael had with "the dragon" who was the one whose tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and who stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
It does not take the IQ of a rocket scientist to conclude this dragon was none other then Satan himself as is absolutely confirmed in vs 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
So Satan was cast out of heaven. He did not leave voluntarily.
And as this is during the exaggerated telling of Satan wanting to devour the woman's child when born, as she was in labor, it is not a stretch to believe that is casting out from heaven of Satan was at a point before Jesus was born on earth.
I do not for one minute believe that the millennium ended when Satan was cast to earth.
But that needs to wait for more time at the moment.
Suffice it to say that we are told at the end of the millennium Satan will be loosed for a time.
Rev 20:7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8:and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.
If the millennium ended when Satan was cast to earth, where was he bound when he was still in heaven in Rev 12.
Spinning scriptures to make them fit your beliefs does not work.
Hi Rella,
And a Happy New Year to you and yours. Hope you are staying safe...and thank you for reading and digesting...
I did not write in my comment that it was a voluntary decision for Satan to be cast out of heaven down to earth for a "short time". Of course, it wasn't a voluntary action in John's statement that Satan had come down unto the earth in great wrath for a "short time". Satan was "cast down to earth", and "had come down" to the earth... neither of these was a voluntary choice for Satan. Satan's own wrathful response tells us that this was not a voluntary decision of his to be limited only to the earth's domain after he was cast out of heaven.
But you are missing my point altogether. If John said that Satan had already been loosed on earth for a "short time" in great wrath, then that means without a doubt that the millennium was already over and done by the time Revelation was being written. Because the millennium was supposed to be "finished" at the time Satan was loosed on earth for a "little season". This is merely comparing Revelation by itself to make this deduction.
The Revelation 20:5 text tells us also that the thousand years would culminate with the remnant of the dead living again as being the first resurrection event. If you don't recognize that Christ rising from the dead as the "First-fruits" along with the Matthew 27:52-53 saints is the "First resurrection" event, then we have reached a communication impasse. The "First-fruits" WAS the "First Resurrection" event, which gives Christ the preeminence. This means the literal millennium finished on Christ's resurrection day. If you can't recognize this, well, you just can't, that's all. It's not a salvific issue.
And Satan and his angels were not cast out of heaven before Jesus was born. He was cast out of heaven when the male child was caught up to God and to His throne. That was Christ's ascension on His resurrection day.
You ask "WHERE" Satan was bound during the time that he had access to heaven. You are mistaking the bottomless pit for a physical location. It isn't. It is a status, or a condition. Just as Romans 10:7 tells us that Christ was also in the "abyss" for three days and nights, meaning His physical body was lying inert in the grave for that time. The "bottomless pit" or the "abyss" (abusson) is an expression that describes a non-functioning condition. It isn't a place per se. Satan was in a chained, restricted condition for those literal thousand years that did not allow him to deceive the nations as he had freely been able to do before then. God had "bound" the "strong man" at the beginning of the millennium back in 968 / 967 BC, and Christ and His disciples took advantage of his already-bound condition to "spoil his goods" by casting out devils during His earthly ministry.
This chained-up, sealed condition on Satan's deception of the nations was released at Christ's ascension that resurrection day. This is why (just as Joel 2:28-29 prophesied) God poured out His Spirit on all flesh in those days, both men and women of all ages and classes of society. This helped to equip the believers in dealing with this ramped up level of Satanic wrathful oppression when he was loosed on the world for that "short time" and "little season", just before his destruction.
You describe the abyss or the bottomless pit as a condition, not a place. But you continue to think of heaven, not as a condition, but rather as a place.
And the "first resurrection" is the resurrection of the spirit as described in John 5:24-25: Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment; but has passed from death to life. Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
The dead there is the spiritually dead. That is contrasted with the those in John 5:28-29 who are physically dead and in their graves: Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
The first resurrection is regeneration, being born again. The second resurrection is that at the end of the age.
: 4WD Wed Dec 22, 2021 - 08:15:17
Maybe you should just quit hollering from the choir loft and treat the whole of God's word with the importance it rightly deserves. That you would claim that what God said about something, about anything actually, is "an extraneous point of biblical reference" is truly bazaar.
You missed my point completely. It isn't about the Bible at all.
It IS about the interpretations assigned to certain phrases pulled out of context and given importance its doesn't deserve and which God did not intend. THAT is the point of millennial dissension. Do you not see it? Multiple interpretations of the dogma serve evidence that there isn't a central idea being promoted AND that those who argue about it care less about God's Word than they do about their pet ideology.
Thus the discussion is extraneous to Biblical context as a whole.
or do you just want to argue about it and claim you are perfect in your understanding.......
?????
that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...
No I didn't miss your point at all. The simple fact is that virtually everything in the Bible can be fit into your "interpretations assigned to certain phrases pulled out of context and given importance its doesn't deserve and which God did not intend".
: RB Wed Dec 22, 2021 - 09:52:40
I would not deny that the Gentiles like the Jews of old have apostate from the truth as a whole, which puts us very close to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Since you admit Gentiles are apostate in their interpretation of God's Word, why do you deny what it says about God's people and Gentiles?
At issue here is protestant theology. It's in lock step with Vatican doctrine established five hundred years ago. That particular doctrine despises and rejects anything Jewish INCLUDING Biblical statements that;
1. Jesus died for the nation, not individuals. (John 11:51)
2. Jesus is King of the Jews.(John 19:21 & Mark 15:26)
3. He who accepts the King of the Jews as His Lord and Savior becomes part of Jesus' kingdom - becomes a Jew. (Romans 2:29)
4. He who does not live by the LAW will die by the LAW. (Romans 2:12)
5. I did not come to abolish the LAW. I came to fulfill it. Jesus as quoted by Matthew 5:17
6. The Lord will not forsake His people Israel. (Psalm 94:14).
As RB has so generously conceded, the church is ICHABOD (1 Sam 4:21). The Holy Spirit has departed from it because of its wickedness and approval of overt SIN.
1. Humanism has crept into every worship service in the land. It is the human and the culture that is worshipped, not God. Bible references are unjustly used to promote the attitude.
2. It has been readily acknowledged by everyone that Jesus is King of the Jews, but the Roman church has succeeded where Jews did not. They've taken Christ's title and authority for their own. The RCC now claims its leader is God, not Jesus.
"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in heaven and earth." - Barclay Cap. XXVII, p. 218. Cities Petrus Bertrandus, Pius V.
3. If Jesus is King of Jews, then surrendering to His authority and Lordship makes one a part of His kingdom - a Jew. Not only it this logical, but its Biblical.
4. The LAW still stands. Those who surrender to Christ are justified in that the punishment for their SIN is removed by the blood of Jesus. Shall we who are now forgiven rush back into the arms of SIN? God forbid. May it never be. The LAW still stands.
We are granted grace so as to live lives pleasing to God according to the LAW.
5. How did Christ fulfill the LAW? If now that requirement of LAW is fulfilled by Christ then the LAW isn't abolished. It is still in effect.
6. The Lord never abandoned His people Israel. They live and exist among the family of nations in fulfillment of the prophecy of Ezekiel 37. Whether anti-semitic types like it or not God is still with His people Israel - AS WELL AS those who join themselves to it via the Kingdom of Christ.
Hope this clears up a few basic items.
that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
You have in the that posting just proven yourself guilty of your own criticism that "interpretations assigned to certain phrases pulled out of context and given importance its doesn't deserve and which God did not intend". You do it with nearly everything you post.
: 3 Resurrections Sat Jan 01, 2022 - 20:51:56
Hi Rella,
And a Happy New Year to you and yours. Hope you are staying safe...and thank you for reading and digesting...
I did not write in my comment that it was a voluntary decision for Satan to be cast out of heaven down to earth for a "short time". Of course, it wasn't a voluntary action in John's statement that Satan had come down unto the earth in great wrath for a "short time". Satan was "cast down to earth", and "had come down" to the earth... neither of these was a voluntary choice for Satan. Satan's own wrathful response tells us that this was not a voluntary decision of his to be limited only to the earth's domain after he was cast out of heaven.
But you are missing my point altogether. If John said that Satan had already been loosed on earth for a "short time" in great wrath, then that means without a doubt that the millennium was already over and done by the time Revelation was being written. Because the millennium was supposed to be "finished" at the time Satan was loosed on earth for a "little season". ( This will need to be addressed later) This is merely comparing Revelation by itself to make this deduction.
No it does not and it needs to be addressed..... but the most important thing you need to answer is WHAT TRANSLATION OF THE BIBLE DO YOU FOLLOW? Leaving the millennium and Satan out of this for a while..... let's address the first part of your reply here.
You need to prove... beyond a doubt ... what is meant by a short time.
You have been very hung up by this "short time" statement. But you need to dig to see what Paul might mean when he says "the time is short. Is this an eschatological statement? Or does is merely reflect some kind of local crisis in Corinth? Something else?
You are of the belief ( correct me if I am wrong) "The time is short" because Jesus Christ set in motion with His death, burial, and glorious resurrection a movement toward a telos: the completion of the universal Church of God, the bride of Christ, and her glorification with Him in new heavens and a new earth as we are told in 2 Peter 3:13.
Yet the NASB 95 updated says "the time has been shortened"
As does the American Standard Version
Gods Word Translation
The Lexington English Bible
AND the 1890 Darby Bible says the time is straightened.
Has been shortened does not carry the same understanding as a short time.
By example... If a man is expecting to live to 90 and by illness died at the age of 75
Some might say he was not very old because his life has been shortened. While others might say he lived a short time because he was not very old. They do not mean the same thing.
So, as you continue to use short time as your basis for your beliefs... you need to quantify why you believe that short time is as you believe and that it is not a simple misunderstanding that the original meaning was ... has been shortened.
WE must always be aware that To God, however, who views time completely differently from the way we view it, the time is very short indeed. For with God, a day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as a day (2 Peter 3:8). We are therefore not to lose heart, not only because His return is imminent, but also because each and every Christian has but a few short years in which to Occupy till Jesus comes... Luke 19:13.
The Revelation 20:5 text tells us also that the thousand years would culminate with the remnant of the dead living again as being the first resurrection event. If you don't recognize that Christ rising from the dead as the "First-fruits" along with the Matthew 27:52-53 saints is the "First resurrection" event, then we have reached a communication impasse. The "First-fruits" WAS the "First Resurrection" event, which gives Christ the preeminence. This means the literal millennium finished on Christ's resurrection day. If you can't recognize this, well, you just can't, that's all. It's not a salvific issue.
And Satan and his angels were not cast out of heaven before Jesus was born. He was cast out of heaven when the male child was caught up to God and to His throne. That was Christ's ascension on His resurrection day.
You ask "WHERE" Satan was bound during the time that he had access to heaven. You are mistaking the bottomless pit for a physical location. It isn't. It is a status, or a condition. Just as Romans 10:7 tells us that Christ was also in the "abyss" for three days and nights, meaning His physical body was lying inert in the grave for that time. The "bottomless pit" or the "abyss" (abusson) is an expression that describes a non-functioning condition. It isn't a place per se. Satan was in a chained, restricted condition for those literal thousand years that did not allow him to deceive the nations as he had freely been able to do before then. God had "bound" the "strong man" at the beginning of the millennium back in 968 / 967 BC, and Christ and His disciples took advantage of his already-bound condition to "spoil his goods" by casting out devils during His earthly ministry.
This chained-up, sealed condition on Satan's deception of the nations was released at Christ's ascension that resurrection day. This is why (just as Joel 2:28-29 prophesied) God poured out His Spirit on all flesh in those days, both men and women of all ages and classes of society. This helped to equip the believers in dealing with this ramped up level of Satanic wrathful oppression when he was loosed on the world for that "short time" and "little season", just before his destruction.
Hi Rella,
Your question about the length of time a 'short time" lasts is actually immaterial to the case I am making. It's a moot point. Regardless of how long that "short time" was, makes no difference to the fact that this "short time" or "little season" after the millennium expired had already begun as John was writing Revelation, according to Revelation 12:12. Which consequently means that the millennium had ended prior to the time Revelation was composed.
Why is this so difficult to understand?
: 3 Resurrections Mon Jan 03, 2022 - 11:05:49
Why is this so difficult to understand?
Because you are wrong.
4WD, you aren't even trying to address the two texts in Revelation that I am comparing with each other.
: 3 Resurrections Mon Jan 03, 2022 - 11:05:49
Hi Rella,
Your question about the length of time a 'short time" lasts is actually immaterial to the case I am making. It's a moot point. Regardless of how long that "short time" was, makes no difference to the fact that this "short time" or "little season" after the millennium expired had already begun as John was writing Revelation, according to Revelation 12:12. Which consequently means that the millennium had ended prior to the time Revelation was composed.
Why is this so difficult to understand?
Hi 3 Rs,
You asked "Why is this so difficult to understand?" And you responded to 4WD with
4WD, you aren't even trying to address the two texts in Revelation that I am comparing with each other.
Well I am using Rev., but I also need include important points from Mathew and Luke,
primarily because these were during the time you claim Satan was bound.
"Why is this so difficult to understand?"
Because not once have you ever said why Satan was bound for 1000 years starting in 968/967 BC , and then cast to earth on at Christ's ascension on His resurrection day.
We know that the perfectly created angel , Lucifer, grew into rebellion and wanted to be higher then God.
But that would not be a reason for being bound 1000 years to be cast to earth on Jesus' ascension.
( And while you are looking to discount what I say here... please explain ... IF Satan was bound for the 1000 years prior to Christ's ascension on His resurrection day who was it who tempted Jesus in the wilderness as we are told in Luke 4: and Mathew 4:?
8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: (Jesus called him that)(Was he wrong?) for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Mathew 14:10
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Luke 4:
13 And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.( which could not be IF he was bound during this time)
Especially when Rec 20: 1-3 states
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, (REASON) so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.
So your beliefs that Satan was bound for 1000 years before being cast to earth is not true as Rev 20 shows us.
And we see that an angel came down from heaven and threw him into the pit.
That, my friend , was right here on earth... as is shown in the very book of the bible you are making your arguments from.
Rella, perhaps you have never read them, but I have already made comments before on why Satan was bound for that literal thousand years starting in 968.967 BC until AD 33.
It has a lot to do with the discussion about the divine council that God set up over the nations of the world back in Peleg's time.
Also related to the total of 7,000 years of mankind's history on this planet from the Fall to the final judgment, and how Satan's biography intersects with that.
Also related to the reason for God allowing the presence of evil in this world to have persisted, in spite of God's reign over the world.
Also related to Satan being used as a judgment tool to bring about the end of the Jewish commonwealth in the AD 70 era, and to bring God's vengeance upon them for murdering His Son.
Also related to Satan instigating the Sea Beast's war on the saints, to maximize the number of martyred believers that would be able to participate in the AD 70 bodily resurrection.
And it is not me that is pinning down this time of Satan being bound. It's John in Revelation 12:12 compared with Revelation 20:3 and 7, which no one can seem to bring themselves to seriously consider.
And you are still operating under the impression that the "abusson", the "abyss", or the "bottomless pit" which kept Satan bound is a location which can be pointed to on a map somewhere. It's not a place. It's a CONDITION OR STATUS of something that is not in its usual operating mode. It was not necessary for Satan to go out of existence or out of the world to be in a "chained" and "sealed" condition and not allowed to deceive the nations during this literal thousand years. This "pit" is not a place here on earth, as you suppose. This idea is not found anywhere in the scripture.
Just because Satan's deception of the nations was chained made no difference in his retaining the title of "the Prince of this world". His temptation of Jesus in the wilderness had nothing to do with deceiving Christ or the nations, so I'm not sure how you think that this is a problem for what I am stating. To be restricted from deceiving the nations for a thousand years has no bearing on Satan going from place to place in this world, either.
: 3 Resurrections Mon Jan 03, 2022 - 11:45:01
4WD, you aren't even trying to address the two texts in Revelation that I am comparing with each other.
3 Res, I think that you are so fundamentally wrong with your entire approach to the meaning of Revelation, that discussing the meaning of a couple of verses just doesn't accomplish very much.
I understand Revelation to be an account, a prophecy, about the entire church age from Christ's first coming to His second coming at the end of the age, the end of the age being described by Peter in chapter three of his second letter. You necessarily discuss Revelation, including the two texts that you are comparing with each other, from a
preterist point of view. Since I hold that view to be so completely wrong, the nuances of a couple of texts is not likely to make much difference in the real meaning of anything presented in Revelation.
Thus when you posted,
: 3 Resurrections Mon Jan 03, 2022 - 11:05:49
Hi Rella,
Your question about the length of time a 'short time" lasts is actually immaterial to the case I am making. It's a moot point. Regardless of how long that "short time" was, makes no difference to the fact that this "short time" or "little season" after the millennium expired had already begun as John was writing Revelation, according to Revelation 12:12. Which consequently means that the millennium had ended prior to the time Revelation was composed.
, and then asked, "Why is this so difficult to understand?", I answered quite truthfully. I told you why it is so difficult to understand. It is difficult to understand because it is wrong. Your entire approach to anything in Revelation is wrong. The preterist approach to interpreting and understanding the message of Revelation is wrong.
As to the whole question posed by the OP, RB answered it quite nicely and accurately in his reply #1 where he posted
: RB Sat Nov 06, 2021 - 04:52:45
The bodily resurrection of both the just and unjust takes place on the last day.
The 1000 years are symbolic of a period of time beginning at the start of NT church age at the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and will continue until the last day of this world as we now know it.
He said a lot more in that reply, but those first couple of sentences answered the question asked.
: 3 Resurrections Mon Jan 03, 2022 - 22:41:10
Rella, perhaps you have never read them, but I have already made comments before on why Satan was bound for that literal thousand years starting in 968.967 BC until AD 33.
3R.. I am certain I have read them with out giving much though to your reasoning because your logic is fallible.
You say until 33AD. Where do you get that specific date from because the crucifixion happened at some time before 33 AD based on the recorded history that we know...
In Matthew 2, it makes it clear that Jesus was conceived during the reign of King Herod and was born under the same.
To differentiate between which Herod Jesus was conceived and born under let us consider
Herod The Great
Historical records identify the Herod in this passage as Herod the Great. He was the ruler of Judea at this time. He appears in the following verses in the New Testament: Matthew 2:1, 3, 7, 12, 13, 16, 19, 22 and Luke 1:5.
While it has been considered by most authoritarians and still most historians today depend upon the work of Emil Schurer who wrote in A.D. 1890 that Herod the Great died in 4 B.C. ( which would put your date of Jesus' ascension before 33 AD as he would have been born at the latest in 4BC but more likely 5 or 6 BC because of Herod's order to slaughter the male children from 2 years of age and under.
But new info has come to light by a man named of Finegan. His detailed information is impressive. He demonstrates that Herod Philip died in the 22nd year of Tiberius (A.D. 35-36), rather in the 20th year. This shifts the death of Herod the Great from 4 B.C. to 1 B.C. and in turn shifts the birth of Christ to 2 or 3 B.C.
This matters little to the conversation at hand but does indicate that Jesus was not crucified, nor had his ascention in 33 AD but at some point before that.
It has a lot to do with the discussion about the divine council that God set up over the nations of the world back in Peleg's time.
Also related to the total of 7,000 years of mankind's history on this planet from the Fall to the final judgment, and how Satan's biography intersects with that.
Also related to the reason for God allowing the presence of evil in this world to have persisted, in spite of God's reign over the world.
Also related to Satan being used as a judgment tool to bring about the end of the Jewish commonwealth in the AD 70 era, and to bring God's vengeance upon them for murdering His Son.
Also related to Satan instigating the Sea Beast's war on the saints, to maximize the number of martyred believers that would be able to participate in the AD 70 bodily resurrection.
And it is not me that is pinning down this time of Satan being bound. It's John in Revelation 12:12 compared with Revelation 20:3 and 7, which no one can seem to bring themselves to seriously consider.
There is no understandable tie in for this between those two verses and Chapter 12.
Lets look at that chapter 20.... Ill use KJV as that is what most are familiar with, even though it is full of errors and misconceptions.
REV 20: 1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. ( So John saw an angel come down from heaven???????. Come down to where???????)
REV 20: 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
REV 20 :3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
(This was when the angel came down (to where?) and chained Satan and sealed him into the bottomless pit for 1000 years.
Because if the angel was already in heaven then he could not have come down to heaven to chain Satan and if the angel was on earth already and Satan in heaven still .... he would have had to go up!!!!!!!!)
REV 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
REV 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
When Satan is loosed out of his prison it says he shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth.
(There is no mention of being cast out from heaven after being loosed... it says once he is loosed he shall go out to deceive .
Not down)
CONTINUING:
REV 12: 7-12
7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
(This casting out from heaven into the earth, I submit, IS NOT when the angel cast Satan into the bottomless pit)
10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.[/color] ( He has not been bound at this point yet.... anywhere)
And you are still operating under the impression that the "abusson", the "abyss", or the "bottomless pit" which kept Satan bound is a location which can be pointed to on a map somewhere. It's not a place. It's a CONDITION OR STATUS of something that is not in its usual operating mode. It was not necessary for Satan to go out of existence or out of the world to be in a "chained" and "sealed" condition and not allowed to deceive the nations during this literal thousand years. This "pit" is not a place here on earth, as you suppose. This idea is not found anywhere in the scripture.
Yes it is.... right there in Rev 20: 3
Just because Satan's deception of the nations was chained made no difference in his retaining the title of "the Prince of this world". His temptation of Jesus in the wilderness had nothing to do with deceiving Christ or the nations, so I'm not sure how you think that this is a problem for what I am stating. To be restricted from deceiving the nations for a thousand years has no bearing on Satan going from place to place in this world, either.
Rev 12 and Rev 20 cannot be compared because the entire book was written with 3 thoughts. Past, present and future.
And it is the future of Rev 20 that has yet to take place .
John was told to write... The things which thou hast seen... The things which are and ...The things which shall be hereafter..
And until and unless one realizes this they will be forever wandering in wrong directions.
Hi Rella,
Why do I have the feeling that if I told you that, as a Preterist, I ascribe to the virgin birth, that you would find a way to disagree with that as well? Anybody reading this exchange should be able to tell that you are avoiding a very plain argument of two Revelation texts being compared by simply waving your hand over them to dismiss them. That is a lazy way to deal with scripture, and betrays a bias on your side. Are you telling us that if you had been there, you would have scoffed at what Balaam's donkey said, simply because it was an ass who was stating those things? It shouldn't matter a twit who or what the source of the scripture text is.
For myself, I have no argument with RB's off-topic statement that there is a bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust at the last day. I believe this point in addition to my stated views. But his statement that the millennium lasts all the way to the end of the last day of this world as we know it cannot possibly be true. That is because Satan was supposed to be loosed to deceive the nations once more at the end of the millennium, according to Revelation 20:3, 7-8. How can Satan be loosed to deceive the nations once more for a short time when the conditions in the world as we know it will come to an end at the last day with that final judgment? These ideas totally contradict each other.
You say that the AD 33 date for Christ's crucifixion has very little to do with the subject at hand, but it does. Christ's crucifixion and subsequent resurrection are the pivotal point for ALL of prophecy. Get that wrong, and you do indeed wander off in wrong directions.
It is very simple to pin down the AD 33 date for the crucifixion. Compare what the Pharisees told Christ in John 2:20 on His very first Passover in Jerusalem. "FORTY-SIX YEARS was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?" Herod's temple renovations began back in AD 17. Forty-six full years later is AD 30, at the beginning of Christ's public ministry. Three and a half years later He is crucified in AD 33. Christ was about 36 years old when He died, and about 30 years old when He was baptized in AD 27.
As for the Revelation 12 text about Satan being cast out of heaven, I agree with you that this is NOT the time when Satan was cast into the abyss, because that was long before back in 968/967 BC. Satan's being cast out of heaven coincided with the time when He was RELEASED from the condition of being bound by the abyss. It doesn't matter where Satan's presence actually was when he was bound. God can impose a restricted condition upon an angelic being regardless of their physical location. I repeat...the abyss is NEVER identified anywhere in scripture with a specific place . It is a state of being, or a condition imposed on something. Even Christ's body was said to be in the abyss while his body was in a state of death. Romans 10:7 shows us just how we are to interpret what an "abysmal" condition actually is.
You are not quite on target with the 3 main points of focus for Revelation. Yes, John was told to write about past and present things he had seen and was seeing. But he was to write more specifically than just "things that are to come" in the distant future. He was to write about "things that are ABOUT TO BE HEREAFTER". As you have said, the KJV tends to obscure things. It is the more accurate rendering of the Greek word "mello" which should be included. Unfortunately, the KJV and other versions with similar mistranslations have sent eschatology students wandering off in the wrong direction with their interpretations.
: 3 Resurrections Tue Jan 04, 2022 - 10:20:34For myself, I have no argument with RB's off-topic statement that there is a bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust at the last day. I believe this point in addition to my stated views. But his statement that the millennium lasts all the way to the end of the last day of this world as we know it cannot possibly be true. That is because Satan was supposed to be loosed to deceive the nations once more at the end of the millennium, according to Revelation 20:3, 7-8. How can Satan be loosed to deceive the nations once more for a short time when the conditions in the world as we know it will come to an end at the last day with that final judgment? These ideas totally contradict each other.
Hold on 3 Resurrections~I had to go back to see when and why I made that statement and it was not to you and truly it was not off-topic. My statement was made two months ago and it was the second post of this thread to Rob, not you~and, if you look at his opening point my response back was certainly not off-topic as you claim.
I'll let you finish posting with Rella, and then I will answer your words spoken against what I said to be the truth. Btw, my position does not contradict God's word but your newfound revelation out of the pits of hell.
RB, What I meant when I wrote "off-topic" was that this point was off-topic to the comparison between the two texts of Revelation 12:12 and Revelation 20:3 & 7 that I was discussing with Rella. Not that you were off-topic to the original post, if that clears anything up. Perhaps I should have gone back through the post and found for myself where you had made those comments about the millennium's ending. I was copying what Rella said you had said. Are you saying she quoted you incorrectly? If so, I don't mind being set straight.
"The pits of hell"?! ::crackup:: that's a bit of overkill, RB. You should save your large shot for more critical topics that truly have a bearing on our salvation.
: 3 Resurrections Tue Jan 04, 2022 - 10:20:34
Hi Rella,
Why do I have the feeling that if I told you that, as a Preterist, I ascribe to the virgin birth, that you would find a way to disagree with that as well? Anybody reading this exchange should be able to tell that you are avoiding a very plain argument of two Revelation texts being compared by simply waving your hand over them to dismiss them. That is a lazy way to deal with scripture, and betrays a bias on your side. Are you telling us that if you had been there, you would have scoffed at what Balaam's donkey said, simply because it was an ass who was stating those things? It shouldn't matter a twit who or what the source of the scripture text is.
For myself, I have no argument with RB's off-topic statement that there is a bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust at the last day. I believe this point in addition to my stated views. But his statement that the millennium lasts all the way to the end of the last day of this world as we know it cannot possibly be true. That is because Satan was supposed to be loosed to deceive the nations once more at the end of the millennium, according to Revelation 20:3, 7-8. How can Satan be loosed to deceive the nations once more for a short time when the conditions in the world as we know it will come to an end at the last day with that final judgment? These ideas totally contradict each other.
You say that the AD 33 date for Christ's crucifixion has very little to do with the subject at hand, but it does. Christ's crucifixion and subsequent resurrection are the pivotal point for ALL of prophecy. Get that wrong, and you do indeed wander off in wrong directions.
It is very simple to pin down the AD 33 date for the crucifixion. Compare what the Pharisees told Christ in John 2:20 on His very first Passover in Jerusalem. "FORTY-SIX YEARS was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?" Herod's temple renovations began back in AD 17. Forty-six full years later is AD 30, at the beginning of Christ's public ministry. Three and a half years later He is crucified in AD 33. Christ was about 36 years old when He died, and about 30 years old when He was baptized in AD 27.
As for the Revelation 12 text about Satan being cast out of heaven, I agree with you that this is NOT the time when Satan was cast into the abyss, because that was long before back in 968/967 BC. Satan's being cast out of heaven coincided with the time when He was RELEASED from the condition of being bound by the abyss. It doesn't matter where Satan's presence actually was when he was bound. God can impose a restricted condition upon an angelic being regardless of their physical location. I repeat...the abyss is NEVER identified anywhere in scripture with a specific place . It is a state of being, or a condition imposed on something. Even Christ's body was said to be in the abyss while his body was in a state of death. Romans 10:7 shows us just how we are to interpret what an "abysmal" condition actually is.
You are not quite on target with the 3 main points of focus for Revelation. Yes, John was told to write about past and present things he had seen and was seeing. But he was to write more specifically than just "things that are to come" in the distant future. He was to write about "things that are ABOUT TO BE HEREAFTER". As you have said, the KJV tends to obscure things. It is the more accurate rendering of the Greek word "mello" which should be included. Unfortunately, the KJV and other versions with similar mistranslations have sent eschatology students wandering off in the wrong direction with their interpretations.
3R,
I asked you before which translation is your preference. You never answered.
I said I used KJ which is not my choice but because there are those reading here who will not read anything else.
If you feel there are other translations with similar mistranslations I do wish you would name them so I can avoid them when exchanging with you.
I am not ignoring the contents in this reply but I want to interject another area that is not from KJV so you should not find fault with it... but I am sure you will as I am sure it wont be your approved reading list.
Addressing a section of Revelation 20 again and expanding it.
Rev 20: 1-4
20 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain [a]in his hand.
2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.
You use this in alleging proof that when Jesus was ressurected and ascended that finished the 1000 year. ( We will ignore the BC start of this 1000 years.)
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,
8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the [c]seashore
If you want another translation Ill be happy to provide my Greek interlinear one tomorrow. Why can you not see Satan is bound while Jesus is reigning on earth for 1000 years and will not be released until the 1000 years of Jesus reign is a near the prophetic end?
Hey again Rella,
I'm sorry, I forgot you asked about my preferred translation. It's either the Interlinear or the YLT or the LXX, since all of them recognize the full impact of the Greek terms of imminence that scripture employs. For memorization, however, I am so familiar with the KJV from my childhood that it is the easiest for me to quote without looking up. And as you say, there are those who will ignore all other translations but that one, so out of deference to them when I am discussing scripture with them, I'll revert to the KJV many times. Sort of the "all things to all men" kind of thing, you know. And I have no problem with comparing every translation when doing careful word studies of a passage. Because they can all bring something to the table.
You asked why I could not see that Satan is bound while Jesus is reigning on earth. Actually, it never says Jesus is on earth for this entire 1,000 reign with the saints, although the years of Christ's incarnation were part of it at the very end of the millennium. Jesus is not now bodily upon the earth, yet you and I are presently said to "reign in life by one, Jesus Christ" (Romans 5:17). This was the same "reign" of the second person of the Trinity which the OT believers shared back in Solomon's temple days. The incarnate Jesus did not yet have to be upon the earth for these living OT saints to share in the benefits of God binding Satan and restricting him from deceiving the nations during those literal thousand years.
The Lord's reign over the earth from heaven is emphasized repeatedly in the Psalms with verses such as "Say among the heathen that the Lord reigneth...", (Ps. 96:10), and "The Lord reigneth, let the earth rejoice" (Ps. 97:1). "The Lord reigneth; let the people tremble" (Ps. 99:1) "The Lord hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all." (Ps. 103:19).
The perpetuity of the Lord's reign is expressed in verses like, "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre." (Ps. 45:6), or "Thy throne is established of old, thou art from everlasting." (Ps. 93:2). The Lord's reign is not limited to a mere thousand years; that thousand-year time limit is put upon SATAN and his deception of the nations. For the length of time that Satan's deception was bound, the glory of God's perpetual kingdom reign was magnified even more. The believers who lived during that time were able to participate in that increased blessing of God's reign being magnified by Satan's deception being shut down for the thousand years.
In the middle of all these highlighted texts emphasizing the Lord's reign in Psalms, there is a curious statement by the aging King David in Ps. 102:11-15 that I believe applies to the beginning of the millennium about to come when Solomon would lay the foundation stone of the temple. King David said, "My days are like a shadow that declineth; and I am withered like grass. But thou, O Lord, shalt endure forever; and thy remembrance unto all generations. Thou shalt arise, and have mercy upon Zion: for the time to favour her, yea, the SET TIME is come. For thy servants take pleasure in her stones, and favour the dust thereof. So the heathen shall fear the name of the Lord, and all the kings of the earth thy glory."
The Greek for this "set time" carries the sense of a prophetically-appointed time period of significance. David knew that God intended and promised that his own son Solomon as a man of peace would build a temple for Him. David had prepared materials in abundance for this temple. When Solomon's temple foundation stone would be laid in place, so too would "the set time" of the millennium be launched with the binding of Satan's deception of the nations; when the special time of God's favour to Zion would begin; when He would have mercy upon her. The result would be that the heathen would fear the name of the Lord. And we know that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom - the opposite of Satan and his deception of the heathen nations.
: 3 Resurrections Thu Jul 09, 1970 - 18:19:48I'm sorry, I forgot you asked about my preferred translation. It's either the Interlinear or the YLT or the LXX, since all of them recognize the full impact of the Greek terms of imminence that scripture employs. For memorization, however, I am so familiar with the KJV from my childhood that it is the easiest for me to quote without looking up. And as you say, there are those who will ignore all other translations but that one, so out of deference to them when I am discussing scripture with them, I'll revert to the KJV many times. Sort of the "all things to all men" kind of thing, you know. And I have no problem with comparing every translation when doing careful word studies of a passage. Because they can all bring something to the table.
With a "few" exceptions (Geneva, etc)
all others are liken unto
fast foods cooked with old grease over and over again! Amen from the KJV corner. ::applause::
: 3 Resurrections Tue Jan 04, 2022 - 23:01:27
Hey again Rella,
I'm sorry, I forgot you asked about my preferred translation. It's either the Interlinear or the YLT or the LXX, since all of them recognize the full impact of the Greek terms of imminence that scripture employs. For memorization, however, I am so familiar with the KJV from my childhood that it is the easiest for me to quote without looking up. And as you say, there are those who will ignore all other translations but that one, so out of deference to them when I am discussing scripture with them, I'll revert to the KJV many times. Sort of the "all things to all men" kind of thing, you know. And I have no problem with comparing every translation when doing careful word studies of a passage. Because they can all bring something to the table.
You asked why I could not see that Satan is bound while Jesus is reigning on earth. Actually, it never says Jesus is on earth for this entire 1,000 reign with the saints, although the years of Christ's incarnation were part of it at the very end of the millennium. Jesus is not now bodily upon the earth, yet you and I are presently said to "reign in life by one, Jesus Christ" (Romans 5:17). This was the same "reign" of the second person of the Trinity which the OT believers shared back in Solomon's temple days. The incarnate Jesus did not yet have to be upon the earth for these living OT saints to share in the benefits of God binding Satan and restricting him from deceiving the nations during those literal thousand years.
I must disagree that Jesus is not living on earth during the millennium.
The millennium or millennial kingdom) is the 1,000-year reign of Jesus after the tribulation and before the Great White Throne Judgment of the wicked.
During this time , Jesus will reign as king over Israel and all the nations of the world (Isaiah 2:4 He shall judge between the nations, and shall decide disputes for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.
Now if Jesus is not living on earth during this time then he is doing a frequent commute. Maybe staying at Jerusalems Motel 6 while here? (They keep the light on)
The world will live in peace . Isaiah 32:18 18 My people will abide in a peaceful habitation, in secure dwellings, and in quiet resting places., and, at the beginning, everyone will worship God Isaiah 2:2–3 2 lIt shall come to pass in the latter days
that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established as the highest of the mountains, and shall be lifted up above the hills; and all the nations shall flow to it,
3 and many peoples shall come, and say: "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob,
that he may teach us his ways and that we may walk in his paths." For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem..
Do you disagree that the purpose of the 1,000-year reign is to fulfill various promises God made to the world? Some of these promises, called covenants, were given specifically to Israel. Others were given to Jesus, the nations of the world, and creation. Jesus' 1,000-year reign will be a time of promises kept?
The Lord's reign over the earth from heaven is emphasized repeatedly in the Psalms with verses such as "Say among the heathen that the Lord reigneth...", (Ps. 96:10), and "The Lord reigneth, let the earth rejoice" (Ps. 97:1). "The Lord reigneth; let the people tremble" (Ps. 99:1) "The Lord hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all." (Ps. 103:19).
The perpetuity of the Lord's reign is expressed in verses like, "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre." (Ps. 45:6), or "Thy throne is established of old, thou art from everlasting." (Ps. 93:2). The Lord's reign is not limited to a mere thousand years; that thousand-year time limit is put upon SATAN and his deception of the nations. For the length of time that Satan's deception was bound, the glory of God's perpetual kingdom reign was magnified even more. The believers who lived during that time were able to participate in that increased blessing of God's reign being magnified by Satan's deception being shut down for the thousand years.
In the middle of all these highlighted texts emphasizing the Lord's reign in Psalms, there is a curious statement by the aging King David in Ps. 102:11-15 that I believe applies to the beginning of the millennium about to come when Solomon would lay the foundation stone of the temple. King David said, "My days are like a shadow that declineth; and I am withered like grass. But thou, O Lord, shalt endure forever; and thy remembrance unto all generations. Thou shalt arise, and have mercy upon Zion: for the time to favour her, yea, the SET TIME is come. For thy servants take pleasure in her stones, and favour the dust thereof. So the heathen shall fear the name of the Lord, and all the kings of the earth thy glory."
The Greek for this "set time" carries the sense of a prophetically-appointed time period of significance. David knew that God intended and promised that his own son Solomon as a man of peace would build a temple for Him. David had prepared materials in abundance for this temple. When Solomon's temple foundation stone would be laid in place, so too would "the set time" of the millennium be launched with the binding of Satan's deception of the nations; when the special time of God's favour to Zion would begin; when He would have mercy upon her. The result would be that the heathen would fear the name of the Lord. And we know that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom - the opposite of Satan and his deception of the heathen nations.
But I say it is basically irrelevant if Jesus is ruling from heaven or earth. The fact is it will be for 1000 years while Satan is bound and there is no way possible you can make this binding during the time span you claim.
: RB Wed Jan 05, 2022 - 04:09:58
With a "few" exceptions (Geneva, etc) all others are liken unto fast foods cooked with old grease over and over again! Amen from the KJV corner. ::applause::
Prove it. Please ::pray::
RB, most modern English translations, including even the NJKV, are not revisions of the KJV. They are translations from texts of the available manuscripts in the original languages.
Hi RB,
I like me some "fast food" every now and then ::smile::...it seems to work for The Beacon in Spartanburg...
For Rella,
If, as you say, it is "basically irrelevant" if Christ is either on earth or in heaven during those thousand years, then what's the dispute? My basic point is that the reign of God has always been from everlasting to everlasting. This perpetual reign is manifested more openly to the world at certain times, but that doesn't mean His reign waxes or wanes in its level of power. When we discuss the specific, literal millennium portion of this perpetual reign, we are speaking of a particular segment of time when God tamped down on Satan's deceptive activity to allow the more rapid progress of His kingdom in this world.
This was the purpose of raising up King David, and subsequently his son King Solomon who established the beginning of the stationary, physical temple worship system in Jerusalem (which is what characterized the millennium). It was only a type; a picture of God's established presence among mankind which would later be realized by the Holy Spirit dwelling forever within the saints - never to leave them.
There is no indication whatever in scripture that the millennium must follow the Great Tribulation. What DOES "immediately" follow the Great Tribulation is Christ's second coming return in great glory for the saints, which He then takes to heaven so that wherever He is, they can be also.
You wrote of "covenants kept" during this millennium. Yes, God always keeps promises, and to the ones He promises them to. He predicted in the Isaiah 32 text you brought up a restoration of peace and prosperity in Israel, which was most definitely brought about in the post-exilic return. Directly in the middle of the millennium years.
The prophet Habbakuk 3:2 prayed that God would "revive Thy work in THE MIDST OF THE YEARS". This "revival" God performed for His people Israel in the MIDDLE OF THE MILLENNIUM during the post-exilic return period when He said His Spirit would remain among them. He said He would give "peace of soul" to those laboring to rebuild His temple in those days. Because one day the Messiah would be brought into that temple as a newborn baby, filling it with more glory than Solomon's temple ever had.
The millennium was never intended to be the ultimate experience of peace on earth. It was only a foretaste of even greater things to come with Christ as the True Temple foundation stone, and we believers as "living stones" being built upon that foundation.
: Rella Wed Jan 05, 2022 - 08:25:57
Prove it. Please ::pray::
Say pretty please. I'll work on this from my understanding, I do not claim to be an expert by any means.
: 3 Resurrections Wed Jan 05, 2022 - 10:44:44
Hi RB,
I like me some "fast food" every now and then ::smile::...it seems to work for The Beacon in Spartanburg...
The Beacon in Spartanburg, is great from what I have heard, never visited the place but have heard others who have. That's about forty-five miles from Easley, a little too far to go for Hamburgers, etc. Now, Sherry would love to go there if I would take her~but she has not been that good of a girl to take that ride just for fast food. ::smile::
Well, Boston may have its "Green Dragon" tavern for being the "headquarters of the Revolution" for Washington, Hancock, Franklin and the like, but down here, we've got the Beacon, don't we? Seems like every known or wannabe-known politician hits that watering hole with regularity. It's not just the hamburgers and fries; it's the political sauce on top of them.
But hey, since when did Sherry have to earn a trip out of town for a treat?!
: RB Wed Jan 05, 2022 - 15:18:43
Say pretty please. I'll work on this from my understanding, I do not claim to be an expert by any means.
Not until you take Sherry to the Beacon rofl
: 3 Resurrections Wed Jan 05, 2022 - 10:44:44
Hi RB,
I like me some "fast food" every now and then ::smile::...it seems to work for The Beacon in Spartanburg...
For Rella,
If, as you say, it is "basically irrelevant" if Christ is either on earth or in heaven during those thousand years, then what's the dispute? My basic point is that the reign of God has always been from everlasting to everlasting. This perpetual reign is manifested more openly to the world at certain times, but that doesn't mean His reign waxes or wanes in its level of power. When we discuss the specific, literal millennium portion of this perpetual reign, we are speaking of a particular segment of time when God tamped down on Satan's deceptive activity to allow the more rapid progress of His kingdom in this world.
From everything I have read throughout the written words in the bible
it seems perfectly clear by the way they are phrased that Jesus was on earth
during the 1000 years of the millennium, but will spare you references as it truly does not matter to your contention that Satan was bound from 968/967 BC thru 33 AD
We have been told over and over again that the millenium would be a time
characterized by health, prosperity, satisfaction, and longevity as can be seen early on in Isa. 65:18-25. Isaiah's description of the earthly kingdom in the earliest of the prophetic writings of the Old Testament suggestive of of the millennial age is one
Isa 65:18 and part 19
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing, And her people a joy.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem, And joy in My people;
Now before you say this is not the 1000 years... this is what I read those 1000 years will be like.
I also perfectly understand and see during the Millennial Kingdom Jesus will be physically present on earth. And this is the time Satan is bound. Rev proves this IMHO
And I say this because at that time, the literal body of Christ Himself will be seated on the throne of David and ruling from Jerusalem.
Remember that His sitting on the throne of David is clearly linked with His reign over the house of Jacob (Israel). Today Christ is Head over the Church which is His body. It is not until the future millennium that Christ will rule over the house of Jacob. It is then that the kingdom will be restored again to Israel.
And it is during this 1000 years that Satan will be bound.
Your contention that Satan has already been bound, before Jesus was ever born. Before Jesus was known to anyone makes zero sense.
If what you claim is true... With a millennial age of peace that has been described there certainly is no reason for God to have sent Jesus to earth toward the end of those 1000 wonderful years... especially when we know they were not wonderful at all.
Satan was bound to keep him from his evil influences on the nations and then God felt Jesus had to come to start His ministry after 1000 years of wonderful life?
No... not reasonable at all.
The 1000 years of Satan being bound, and that wonderful 1000 years of life on earth with Jesus reigning over all and then Satan being loosed for a short time? That did not happen when you said it did. It is impossible and you can spin all the scriptures you want... you still cannot provide where Jesus reigned over the earth, either here or spiritually from heaven for nearly 1000 years before he was born while Satan was bound.
This was the purpose of raising up King David, and subsequently his son King Solomon who established the beginning of the stationary, physical temple worship system in Jerusalem (which is what characterized the millennium). It was only a type; a picture of God's established presence among mankind which would later be realized by the Holy Spirit dwelling forever within the saints - never to leave them.
There is no indication whatever in scripture that the millennium must follow the Great Tribulation. What DOES "immediately" follow the Great Tribulation is Christ's second coming return in great glory for the saints, which He then takes to heaven so that wherever He is, they can be also.
You wrote of "covenants kept" during this millennium. Yes, God always keeps promises, and to the ones He promises them to. He predicted in the Isaiah 32 text you brought up a restoration of peace and prosperity in Israel, which was most definitely brought about in the post-exilic return. Directly in the middle of the millennium years.
The prophet Habbakuk 3:2 prayed that God would "revive Thy work in THE MIDST OF THE YEARS". This "revival" God performed for His people Israel in the MIDDLE OF THE MILLENNIUM during the post-exilic return period when He said His Spirit would remain among them. He said He would give "peace of soul" to those laboring to rebuild His temple in those days. Because one day the Messiah would be brought into that temple as a newborn baby, filling it with more glory than Solomon's temple ever had.
The millennium was never intended to be the ultimate experience of peace on earth. It was only a foretaste of even greater things to come with Christ as the True Temple foundation stone, and we believers as "living stones" being built upon that foundation.
: 3 Resurrections Wed Jan 05, 2022 - 15:42:12
But hey, since when did Sherry have to earn a trip out of town for a treat?!
Please do not tell her what I said. ::smile:: But she knows me, I'm nothing but a big marshmallow when it comes to her. She tells me all the time~you are all talked, Mr. Sugar Daddy! Her nickname for me with the children and grandchildren~ "Mr. Softly"...she said to them you always go to your dad and Papa because you know he will give in....AND SHE IS RIGHT, not a good trait to be known by.
Can I jump into the argument between you two? I can wait until one of you stop if you like, no problem.
Yeah Red, Papa in our family is a HUGE softie. One time one of the grand daughters ran crying profusely to Nana exclaiming, "Papa said no to me."
: RB Thu Jan 06, 2022 - 04:55:37
Can I jump into the argument between you two? I can wait until one of you stop if you like, no problem.
Between who? 3R and me or another two? rofl
That would be up to 3R. ( If you are referencing us)
I know you are not a preterist but you always disagree with me and am slightly curious of where you would take this debate.
But 3R will decide.
Between who? 3R and me or another two? rofl
That would be up to 3R. ( If you are referencing us)
I know you are not a preterist but you always disagree with me and am slightly curious of where you would take this debate.
But 3R will decide.
[/quote]Yes you two~Back to the truth of AMill idealist.
Hey, this wasn't a post I originated, so I'm not really the one in charge of steering the direction of the comments or limiting who can post. Jump in anywhere you want, RB. I know I'm not going to be able to change either of you crusty individuals - you've both got your own paradigms pretty much set in place, and there's not much I can do to convince you otherwise - I know that.
I'm just writing to avoid 3 rather nasty workroom projects on my table at the moment. I need the money for getting brick and landscaping stone to wrap my new workroom addition, but that doesn't make these 3 projects any fun to tackle.
To keep my point about the millennium very, very simple, these are the questions I have that my two texts answer:
Q: When is Satan released for a "little season"?
A: Satan is released for a "little season" when the millennium period of his restraint is "finished" and "expired", according to Revelation 20:3 and 7.
Q: When does John say that Satan's brief period of a "little season" begins?
A: John gives a warning to his readers in Revelation 12:12 that Satan's "short time" had already started, because Satan had already come down to them, knowing he had only a "short time" to operate.
The ONLY argument I am trying to prove for the moment with these two texts is WHEN THE MILLENNIUM ENDED. I am NOT concentrating on how long this millennium actually is, or when it began, or when the Great Tribulation is, or what characterized the millennium's conditions, or any of those other side issues. If anyone is dealing honestly with these two texts, it should be as plain as the nose on your face that the millennium period "expired" and was "finished" back in the first century, even before John wrote Revelation.
Now, if one wants to debate that a "little season" and a "short time" are two different things, that might be the start of a discussion, but it would be a real stretch to deny that they are the same thing.
: 3 Resurrections Thu Jan 06, 2022 - 09:18:18I'm just writing to avoid 3 rather nasty workroom projects on my table at the moment. I need the money for getting brick and landscaping stone to wrap my new workroom addition, but that doesn't make these 3 projects any fun to tackle.
I have some beautiful landscaping stones you can have free if you come and get them, or I can bring them.
: 3 Resurrections Thu Jan 06, 2022 - 09:18:18
Hey, this wasn't a post I originated, so I'm not really the one in charge of steering the direction of the comments or limiting who can post. Jump in anywhere you want, RB. I know I'm not going to be able to change either of you crusty individuals - you've both got your own paradigms pretty much set in place, and there's not much I can do to convince you otherwise - I know that.
I'm just writing to avoid 3 rather nasty workroom projects on my table at the moment. I need the money for getting brick and landscaping stone to wrap my new workroom addition, but that doesn't make these 3 projects any fun to tackle.
To keep my point about the millennium very, very simple, these are the questions I have that my two texts answer:
Q: When is Satan released for a "little season"?
A: Satan is released for a "little season" when the millennium period of his restraint is "finished" and "expired", according to Revelation 20:3 and 7.
Q: When does John say that Satan's brief period of a "little season" begins?
A: John gives a warning to his readers in Revelation 12:12 that Satan's "short time" had already started, because Satan had already come down to them, knowing he had only a "short time" to operate.
The ONLY argument I am trying to prove for the moment with these two texts is WHEN THE MILLENNIUM ENDED. I am NOT concentrating on how long this millennium actually is, or when it began, or when the Great Tribulation is, or what characterized the millennium's conditions, or any of those other side issues. If anyone is dealing honestly with these two texts, it should be as plain as the nose on your face that the millennium period "expired" and was "finished" back in the first century, even before John wrote Revelation.
Now, if one wants to debate that a "little season" and a "short time" are two different things, that might be the start of a discussion, but it would be a real stretch to deny that they are the same thing.
But you miss my point... yet again.
And lets not call it the millenim any longer as that word is not in the bible anywhee that I can recall without searching and I dont have time at the moment for that.
1. When Satan is bound the 1000 years ( biblical so there can be no debate as to how long... other then in Gods time a day is yada yada) Jesus is reigning over everything and every one. Again biblical ( Can provide scriptur later if you need them)
2. When Jesus is reigning... either spiritually from heaven or physically on the throne of David (biblical) the world will finally be at peace.
Do you argue either of these?
then my point is...
C. When Jesus was ruling over the nations in the 1000 years.... that would have been a definitive period of knowledge of all things God... with or without Jesus (if He was still in heaven)
d. People would have been properly worshipping GOD.
IV. There would be no reason then for Jesus to need to be born of a virgin and end up crucified and buried and resurrected because Jesus' ministry was to bring people back into the fold of God and He sent his disciple to preach it.
NOW as to the short time... I WILL GIVE YOU THAT simply because when Satan is loosed at the end of the 1000 years, he has but a short time before the Great White Throne Judgement. Satan has but 1 final rebellion before his end and the GWT judgement occurs....
V Ergo.... Your timing and understanding on this are all wrong
Hey RB,
You're a generous guy, and I know you would be as good as your word, but I would have to crawl out of my hiding place to meet with you, and I can't do that yet. I promise, however, that if and when my partner dies, I will invite you to the funeral, and we can meet up then. You are probably in better health than they are.
For Rella,
Sigh. Those are all peripheral issues that I'm not even touching. Those are just a diversion from the very plain fact that the two texts I am concentrating on show us that the millennium came to an expired end loooooong ago, which was before John was writing Revelation. We aren't even discussing how long a "little season" actually lasts, or what happens to Satan at the end of that "little season". Forget ALLLLLLLLLLLLLL of those things. Concentrate on just ONE THING ONLY - please. WHEN DID THE THOUSAND YEARS END? That's it. NOTHING ELSE. I repeat - NOTHING ELSE BUT THAT.
: 3 Resurrections Thu Jan 06, 2022 - 10:23:42
Hey RB,
You're a generous guy, and I know you would be as good as your word, but I would have to crawl out of my hiding place to meet with you, and I can't do that yet. I promise, however, that if and when my partner dies, I will invite you to the funeral, and we can meet up then. You are probably in better health than they are.
For Rella,
Sigh. Those are all peripheral issues that I'm not even touching. Those are just a diversion from the very plain fact that the two texts I am concentrating on show us that the millennium came to an expired end loooooong ago, which was before John was writing Revelation. We aren't even discussing how long a "little season" actually lasts, or what happens to Satan at the end of that "little season". Forget ALLLLLLLLLLLLLL of those things. Concentrate on just ONE THING ONLY - please. WHEN DID THE THOUSAND YEARS END? That's it. NOTHING ELSE. I repeat - NOTHING ELSE BUT THAT.
::shrug::
Ummm RB. WE are currently done for this round....
So feel free to have at us.
: 3 Resurrections Thu Jan 06, 2022 - 10:23:42Hey RB,
You're a generous guy, and I know you would be as good as your word, but I would have to crawl out of my hiding place to meet with you, and I can't do that yet. I promise, however, that if and when my partner dies, I will invite you to the funeral, and we can meet up then. You are probably in better health than they are.
I would indeed, God forbid I would be otherwise.
I was hoping (against hope, I'm sure) you would uncover your secret face to me. I'm getting toward the end of my time on earth, most likely I will never know.
Hey, these landscaping stones are beautiful, leftover from a job last summer.
: 3 Resurrections Thu Jan 06, 2022 - 10:23:42For Rella,
Sigh. Those are all peripheral issues that I'm not even touching. Those are just a diversion from the very plain fact that the two texts I am concentrating on show us that the millennium came to an expired end loooooong ago, which was before John was writing Revelation. We aren't even discussing how long a "little season" actually lasts, or what happens to Satan at the end of that "little season". Forget ALLLLLLLLLLLLLL of those things. Concentrate on just ONE THING ONLY - please. WHEN DID THE THOUSAND YEARS END? That's it. NOTHING ELSE. I repeat - NOTHING ELSE BUT THAT.
I understand this is to Rella, but since she blew you a kiss and said goodbye, I thought it would be a good time to step in.
Let me go back to when you first jumped into this discussion, you said:
: 3 Resurrections Reply #25 on: Sat Jan 01, 2022 - 10:47:20 Back to the original question of the post...
So, let us goes back to the very first post:
: Rob on: Fri Nov 05, 2021 - 10:27:38The resurrection both of the just and the unjust takes place on the last day but Revelation 20:4-5 separates the resurrection by 1000 years. Which is symbolic?
Rob has not posted in two months on this thread, he was also a guest so I cannot tell when the last time he even visited the forum being just a "guest". SO, he's not here to even add thoughts to all he was seeking for in this discussion. Nevertheless, let's look at his statement again:
: Rob on: Fri Nov 05, 2021 - 10:27:38The resurrection both of the just and the unjust takes place on the last day but Revelation 20:4-5 separates the resurrection by 1000 years. Which is symbolic?
A closer look at Revelation 20:4,5
does not separate the
bodily resurrection of all men by a thousand years.
: THE HOLY GHOSTRevelation 20:4,5~"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
These two scriptures are
not speaking of an bodily resurrection, but are teaching us
the biblical essence of what
'IS" the
first resurrection.
The first resurrection is a
spiritual rebirth , and those who were born again worshipped Jesus Christ and NOT the beast (or, the anti-Christian system of this world) evidence by not receiving the beast mark upon their foreheads, signifying in
agreement with this world's system, nor "IN" their right hand, signifying in
fellowship with them:
: PaulGalatians 2:9~"And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
Concening the first resurrection being a spiritual rebirth this is exactly what Christ spoke of in John 5 when he taught the people and said these words:
: JESUS CHRISTJohn 5:21-29~"For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
So, to answer Rob's question:
The resurrection both of the just and the unjust takes place on the last day but Revelation 20:4-5 separates the resurrection by 1000 years. Which is symbolic?
concerning the bodily resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous Revelation 20: 4,5
does not separate them a thousand years for John was NOT describing a bodily resurrection but a spiritual resurrection how they who experience THIS FIRST resurrection shall continue to live on during the thousand years
which ARE symbolic of a period of time during which Satan was restrained, or bound so that the Gentiles nations could hear and receive the gospel of Jesus Christ.
: The thread's questionRe: Is the "Last Day" symbolic or is the "1000 Years" symbolic?
The thousand years without question!
: 3 Resurrections Reply #25 on: Sat Jan 01, 2022 - 10:47:20It is not a question of the millennium and the last day being EITHER symbolic or NOT being symbolic. As many other texts in scripture...it is BOTH symbolic AND literal at the same time. Just as the literal number of 12 apostles became the symbolic foundation of the New Jerusalem, which is also composed of literal, living bodies of believers, and is also symbolic of the holy city of God's presence among mankind.
The literal time period of a thousand years for the millennium is quite simple to pin down when we compare Revelation with itself. According to Revelation 20:3 and 7, we know that Satan was supposed to be loosed on earth from his restricting chain FOR ONLY A "LITTLE SEASON" when the millennium period had "expired" or was "finished". This is a specific point on the calendar when the millennium came to an end - not a vague, indeterminate state of things in this world with no precise ending or beginning.
Compare this loosing of Satan in Revelation 20:3 and 7 to what John wrote elsewhere about Satan's loosing on earth. He claimed in Revelation 12:12 that Satan had already come down to the earth with great anger, knowing that his "SHORT TIME" of operating in this world would not last for long. If John said that Satan was ALREADY loosed into the world for that same "SHORT TIME", (the "LITTLE SEASON" at the millennium's end), then this tells us that the millennium was already over and done with by the time John was writing Revelation.
The millennium came to an end when Satan was cast out of heaven with his angels in Revelation 12. This was accomplished when Christ ascended to heaven on the morning after His resurrection. Because all the legal requirements for the saints' justification had been met by Christ's actions on our behalf, the "accuser of the brethren" didn't have a leg to stand on in heaven's court anymore. After that point, Satan and his angels were banned from heaven's realm for all time; cast down to earth for Satan's last, desperate attempt to persecute the saints during his "short time" of being loosed on earth. This "short time" or "little season" lasted from the year AD 33 until AD 66 when he and his angels finally became imprisoned in the city of Jerusalem, as Isaiah 24:21-23 had foretold. God used that location of the city of Jerusalem for the destruction of Satan and his angels, along with every unclean spirit passing out of the land at that point, as Zechariah 13:2 had foretold would happen along with the destruction of AD 70 besieged Jerusalem.
The symbolism behind this very literal thousand-years millennium was the entire period of a physical temple worship system in Israel, which began ever since Solomon had laid the foundation stone of the Temple back in 968/967 BC. It served its purpose for the time being, and helped to bring the knowledge of the God of Israel into repute among the nations, thus limiting Satan's deception. But once Christ at His resurrection became the True Foundation Stone of the True Temple NOT made with hands, the period of this physical temple worship system had truly "finished" and "expired".
Later.....RB
Quote from: The thread's question
Re: Is the "Last Day" symbolic or is the "1000 Years" symbolic?
The thousand years without question!
Quote from: 3 Resurrections Reply #25 on: Sat Jan 01, 2022 - 10:47:20
It is not a question of the millennium and the last day being EITHER symbolic or NOT being symbolic. As many other texts in scripture...it is BOTH symbolic AND literal at the same time. Just as the literal number of 12 apostles became the symbolic foundation of the New Jerusalem, which is also composed of literal, living bodies of believers, and is also symbolic of the holy city of God's presence among mankind.
The literal time period of a thousand years for the millennium is quite simple to pin down when we compare Revelation with itself. According to Revelation 20:3 and 7, we know that Satan was supposed to be loosed on earth from his restricting chain FOR ONLY A "LITTLE SEASON" when the millennium period had "expired" or was "finished". This is a specific point on the calendar when the millennium came to an end - not a vague, indeterminate state of things in this world with no precise ending or beginning.
Compare this loosing of Satan in Revelation 20:3 and 7 to what John wrote elsewhere about Satan's loosing on earth. He claimed in Revelation 12:12 that Satan had already come down to the earth with great anger, knowing that his "SHORT TIME" of operating in this world would not last for long. If John said that Satan was ALREADY loosed into the world for that same "SHORT TIME", (the "LITTLE SEASON" at the millennium's end), then this tells us that the millennium was already over and done with by the time John was writing Revelation.
The millennium came to an end when Satan was cast out of heaven with his angels in Revelation 12. This was accomplished when Christ ascended to heaven on the morning after His resurrection. Because all the legal requirements for the saints' justification had been met by Christ's actions on our behalf, the "accuser of the brethren" didn't have a leg to stand on in heaven's court anymore. After that point, Satan and his angels were banned from heaven's realm for all time; cast down to earth for Satan's last, desperate attempt to persecute the saints during his "short time" of being loosed on earth. This "short time" or "little season" lasted from the year AD 33 until AD 66 when he and his angels finally became imprisoned in the city of Jerusalem, as Isaiah 24:21-23 had foretold. God used that location of the city of Jerusalem for the destruction of Satan and his angels, along with every unclean spirit passing out of the land at that point, as Zechariah 13:2 had foretold would happen along with the destruction of AD 70 besieged Jerusalem.
The symbolism behind this very literal thousand-years millennium was the entire period of a physical temple worship system in Israel, which began ever since Solomon had laid the foundation stone of the Temple back in 968/967 BC. It served its purpose for the time being, and helped to bring the knowledge of the God of Israel into repute among the nations, thus limiting Satan's deception. But once Christ at His resurrection became the True Foundation Stone of the True Temple NOT made with hands, the period of this physical temple worship system had truly "finished" and "expired".[/size]
Later.....RB
Okay, RB.
Are we to understand that you , yourself also agree with 3R in that the 1000 years ( as it is called in the bible) of Satan being bound happened from 967/968 BC to 33 AD.?
At the moment that is my only question for it appears as if you do agree with those dates because you quoted him and let it drop saying later.
: Rella Fri Jan 07, 2022 - 07:18:29Okay, RB.
Are we to understand that you , yourself also agree with 3R in that the 1000 years ( as it is called in the bible) of Satan being bound happened from 967/968 BC to 33 AD.?
Not even close to what he believes~Satan was running wild in the OT days, with only a very, very small remnant
within Israel who did not follow the beast!
Stay tune~I'm just getting starting.
Btw, I'm sure what you read in my post above that would even cause you to believe what you are asking. ::shrug::
: RB Fri Jan 07, 2022 - 07:29:35
Not even close to what he believes~Satan was running wild in the OT days, with only a very, very small remnant within Israel who did not follow the beast!
Stay tune~I'm just getting starting.
Btw, I'm sure what you read in my post above that would even cause you to believe what you are asking. ::shrug::
I was certain you did not believe his beliefs, but I read you quoting him where it started out
The thousand years without question!
Quote from: 3 Resurrections Reply #25 on: Sat Jan 01, 2022 - 10:47:20
and then that long reply of his you quoted followed by no comment just " Later.....RB"
I just wanted definitive confirmation that you are not subscribing to what you quoted of his.
It is difficult enough when people read the same word or the same sentence or even the same scripture and see something
different then what you do..... so thanks for clarifying
: Rella Fri Jan 07, 2022 - 08:27:28I was certain you did not believe his beliefs, but I read you quoting him where it started out
All one has to do is go back to the very first reply in this thread which was made by me, and they can see clearly what I believe concerning the 1000 years.
: RB Reply #1 on: Sat Nov 06, 2021 - 04:52:45The bodily resurrection of both the just and unjust takes place on the last day.
The 1000 years are symbolic of a period of time beginning at the start of NT church age at the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and will continue until the last day of this world as we now know it.
Then I went into details concerning Revelation 20:3~showing how we must start out right understanding Revelation 20 if we expect to end up with the truth of Revelation 20..... especially the first nine scriptures.
So, the 1000 years are symbolic and the last day means just what the word last means....LAST. When the scriptures speaks of the
last trump, then we understand there will be
no more to follow.
: Paul1st Corinthians 15:51,52~"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
The last DAY in Revelation is when the seventh trumpets, bowls, and vials begin~ALL depicted the LAST DAY.
I just might go back and refresh my memory of what has been said so far before moving on~I think it would be wise to do so.
: RB Sat Jan 08, 2022 - 04:55:09
I just might go back and refresh my memory of what has been said so far before moving on~I think it would be wise to do so.
A complicated subject deserves fresh readings.
But you say...: RB Sat Jan 08, 2022 - 04:55:09
So, the 1000 years are symbolic
While we wait....
Can we conclude your beliefs are such that there was not nor will be ever a literal 1000 year period of Satan being bound?
Can we conclude your beliefs are such that there was not nor ever will be a literal 1000 period of Jesus reigning over earth
while Satan is bound?
: Rella Sat Jan 08, 2022 - 07:43:18Can we conclude your beliefs are such that there was not nor will be ever a literal 1000 year period of Satan being bound?
In a few words ....Yes~Satan has been free to go to and fro throughout this world since the creation of man, up and until the death of Christ~that's so easy proven by the world at large and even among Israel as a whole was deceived and served other gods.
Gentiles: Ephesians 2:11,12~"Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Many more we could provide.
Jews: Their whole history proves that only a small remnant truly believed and followed God. There are thousands of scriptures that would prove this truth. The whole northern Kingdoms served Baal and many other gods of the nations around them and some even did worst than other nations!
Ezekiel 5:6~"And she hath changed my judgments into wickedness more than the nations, and my statutes more than the countries that are round about her: for they have refused my judgments and my statutes, they have not walked in them."
You should know the history of Israel~not very good, even to their great sin of rejecting and killing the Lord of Glory!
No bounding of Satan from creation until Christ!
Satan was bound at the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ~the white horse of Revelation 6:1,2 represents the VICTORY and SUCCESS the gospel had at the beginning of the books of Acts as the first Church left Jerusalem and went northeast up into the Gentiles nations converting thousands of thousand Gentiles and forming churches throughout the Roman Empire.
That's from whence comes the NT church epistles. Satan had to be bound so that the gospel could have its success God preordained it should have. Be sure Satan and evil spirits were here, just they were RESTAINED or bound meaning the same thing.
During this time Christ IS reigning IN HEAVEN at God's right hand, called David's throne by the scriptures.
: LukeActs 2:28-36~"Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ."
One more witness:
: Paul1st Corinthians 15:22-26~"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
Christ is reigning NOW and will until the second coming and the resurrection of the dead, which are ONE and the SAME event.
: Rella on: Today at 07:43:18Can we conclude your beliefs are such that there was not nor ever will be a literal 1000 period of Jesus reigning over earth while Satan is bound?
Absolutely.
We shall cover this very shorty in more details.
RB,
You are confusing the innate ability of mankind to perform wickedly with Satan instigating those actions. Satan does not need to be released for mankind to deceive itself - whether Jew or Gentile back in Solomon's days. That is one of the lessons we can learn from Satan being bound from AD 968 967 BC until the ascension in AD 33.
You claim that Satan was bound due to Christ's crucifixion, but it is the opposite. He was RELEASED from his chain at that point. This is why we have verses such as Peter warning the believers in those days that their adversary the Devil was then "walking about as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour" in 1 Peter 5:8. That is NOT a chained-up Satan being described there.
A loosed Satan is why we have the text about the saints putting on the whole armor of God at that point in Ephesians 6:11-18, so that they could withstand the attacks of Satan. That is NOT a chained-up Satan in that text.
A loosed Satan is why we have verses such as 2 Timothy 2:26, with the saints being encouraged to recover themselves out of the snare of the Devil, who were being taken captive by him "at his will". That is NOT a chained-up Satan in that text.
You would have us believe that the millennium will continue until the last day of this world as we know it. That is pure contradiction to your own beliefs, since you say that at the last day, history for mankind is over completely. So how can the millennium end at the last day, when scripture tells us very plainly that Satan is afterward released for a "little season" when the millennium is "expired" and "finished"?
The Binding of Satan
The first three verses of Revelation 20 describes an event that surely sends a thrill through every Christian's heart; the binding of Satan. The text says,
1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
My Strong conviction is that Jesus bound the devil when he came the first time. Many find it extremely difficult to accept this idea, mainly because they hear the words "binding of Satan" and formulate their own idea of what this must mean before they examine the Biblical data. If Satan is bound, they think, then there should not be any sin or even temptation on the earth. But sin obviously was not eliminated by Christ's first coming and is still abundant on the earth today. Would one not have to be blind to think that Satan is bound in times like these?
The key to understanding the binding of Satan is to pay close attention to what the Bible actually says about it, not only in Rev 20:1-3 but elsewhere in the NT as well. Regarding the latter we begin with the way Scripture describes the purpose of Christ's first coming. Among other things, it is specifically taught that Jesus came to deal with the devil. 1 John 3:8 says, "The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil." Among Satan's works are falsehood and death (John 8:44; Heb 2:14), but Jesus came "to testify to the truth" (John 18:37; see John 8:31-47). He has already "abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" (2 Tim 1:10).
Jesus came not only to destroy Satan's works but to "destroy" Satan himself. Hebrews 2:14 clearly states that Jesus came the first time "so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death – that is, the devil" The word rendered "destroy" by the NIV (katargeo) does not necessarily mean "to annihilate, to abolish completely." Obviously Jesus did not do this to Satan at his first coming. But the word also can mean "to set aside, to make ineffective, to nullify, to render powerless." This is the better understanding here, as in the NASB: Christ come to "render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil."
Either way this is very strong language. John says Jesus came specifically to destroy the devil's works; Hebrews says he came to render the devil powerless. We must ask, if this is why Jesus came, did he actually accomplish these things or did he fail? Surely it would be blasphemous to say the latter. Therefore we conclude that Jesus destroyed Satan's works and rendered him powerless from "the binding of Satan" in Rev 20:1-3). If anything, the language of 1 John and Hebrews is even stronger than that of Revelation 20.
What about the expression, "the binding of Satan"? Does this specific language appear elsewhere in Scripture" The answer is yes. In Matt 12:29 (and Mark 3:27) it is used to describe what Jesus was doing during his first advent. Throughout Jesus earthly ministry he was already limiting Satan's power, especially through his many victorious encounters with demonic spirits who had taken over people's bodies. By casting out demons Jesus was demonstrating his power over Satan's kingdom; he was winding the chains around the devil's neck.
Jesus made this very claim in connection with an exorcism recorded in Matt 12:22-30 (see Mark 3:22-27; Luke 11:14-23). Here Jesus explains that in casting out demons he is not working with Satan but against him. He uses the illustration of a strong man who is holding people captive in his house, and a stronger man who attacks and overpowers the captor and sets the captives free (Luke 11:21-22). As he explains in Matt 12:29, "or how can anyone enter the strong man's house and carry of his property, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house." By casting out demons Jesus was already in the process of binding the devil (the "strong man") during his earthly ministry.
Jesus also gave his disciples the authority to cast our demons (Matt 10:1). In Luke 10:1-20 he sent out 70 evangelists with similar authority. When they returned, they joyfully reported, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name" (Luke 10:17). Jesus replied, "I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning" (Luke 10:18). Satan's "fall from heaven" here is not his prehistoric, initial sin; it refers to the defeat he was experiencing through Christ's power at the hands of the disciples at that very time. This is the same event described symbolically in Rev 12:7-9,
And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
Again this is not Satan's initial sin, but his defeat at the hands of the Messiah at the latter's first coming (Rev 12:1-6).
The death blow against Satan was struck in the death and resurrection of Jesus (see Gen 3:15; John 12:31-33; Col 2:15). On the eve of his crucifixion Jesus announced his imminent mortal combat with the devil (John 14:30). Through his own death he rendered Satan powerless (Heb 2:14), and through his resurrection the victory was complete. The risen victor declares, "I am the first and the last, the living One, and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades " (Rev 1:17-18). The keys here are the same as "the key of the abyss" in Rev 20:1. A key is symbolic of power and authority. Through his death and resurrection Jesus gained power over the abyss – realm of death, Satan's proper domain; and with that power he both locks Satan himself in the abyss and rescues those who have been held captive there (Heb 2:15). Revelation 20:1-3 thus symbolically represents Christ's present control over Satan and his works, and the consequent limitation of his power.
Some will still be skeptical that "the binding of Satan" has been a reality since Christ's first coming. Again this is because they have created their own idea of what this should entail, i.e., the earth should be a perfect place, free from sin and filled with righteousness, peace, and prosperity. But this is not how things have been. So how can this be the millennium? How can we accept the idea that Satan is bound now? We can do this if we do not jump to unwarranted conclusions about the results of Satan's binding. Does the Bible actually say that this binding will result in a paradise-like world? No. In fact, Rev 20:3 states very specifically that the single purpose of Satan's binding is "so that he would not deceive the nations any longer."
The question is whether this was actually a result of Christ's first coming, and the answer is yes. Satan's main activity is deception. John 8:44 says, 'he is a liar and the father of lies." Revelation 12:9 describes him, prior to his defeat at Christ's first coming, as the one "who deceives the whole world," He is the source of lies, false teachings, false religions, and all idolatry. With the exception of Israel, prior to Christ's first coming the entire world – all nations as nations – was totally engulfed in Satan's lies, languishing in darkness (see Rom 1:18-32). But what happened when Christ came? He accomplished the works of redemption, thus defeating the devil and his hosts. The gospel -- the good news about the saving power of Christ -- is the gospel truth that dispels Satan's lies and brings light and life to all the world (2 Tim 1:10),
This is exactly how the risen Jesus described Paul's mission to the Gentiles, i.e., to the nations: "to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me" (Acts 26:18). this tells us that prior to the preaching of the gospel, the nations were in darkness; they were the domain of Satan. But as the gospel has been preached "to all the nations" in obedience to the Great Commission (Luke 24:47; see Matt 28:18-20, Mark 16:15), multitudes "from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues" (rev 7:9) have been delivered from captivity to the devil. In terms of Rev 20:1-3, the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ is the chain that binds Satan, so that is not able to deceive the nations any longer.
This does not mean that Satan is doing nothing today. He still roams about, like a roaring lion, seeking to devour us (1 Pet 5:8). But Christ has established a safety zone, as it were, a place where Satan has no power. It is the church, which is the realm over which Christ reigns in his millennial kingship, a haven from the forces of death (Matt 16:18), and "the pillar and support of the truth" (1 Tim 3:15). Anyone who accepts the truth of the gospel and surrenders to the Lordship of Christ is rescued from captivity to Satan and set free to live beyond the reach of his lying mouth and slashing claws.
The results of Christ's initial binding of Satan are bestowed on individuals. When one makes his choice to follow Christ instead of Satan, the almighty power of Jesus Christ binds the devil in reference to that person's life. Jesus has already bound the strong man as such; when we preach the gospel and convert individuals, we are in effect plundering the strong man's house and carrying off his property (Matt 12:29). Because this has already been done on a worldwide basis, with practically every nation being exposed to Christ's liberating power to some degree, it can no longer be said that Satan is deceiving the Nations. Therefor
::eatingpopcorn: ::eatingpopcorn: ::eatingpopcorn:
: 3 Resurrections Sat Jan 08, 2022 - 09:52:42
RB,
You are confusing the innate ability of mankind to perform wickedly with Satan instigating those actions.
I just lost a long post! So, I'll come back soon and see if I can redo this again~I need to kick myself for not saving it.
: 3 Resurrections Sat Jan 08, 2022 - 09:52:42RB,
You are confusing the innate ability of mankind to perform wickedly with Satan instigating those actions.
No sir, that's incorrect. I know very well since sin entered into the world through Adam, the man took on the image of Satan by being taken captive by him and man became the servant of sin under their new master, the devil himself.
God's words said:
: MosesGenesis 6:3,5~And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years..................And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."
When God's word said:
for that he also is flesh
It means that he is corrupt and is not subject to the law of God and
neither indeed can be. You know the scripture I'm referencing from Romans 8.
The truth is: men are little devils, (by nature all are children of wrath, seen by their wicked work, and
only God's election of grace saves of some from condemnation) knowing this, sinners can do even more so wickedly when God allows Satan to use his power to instigate the sin that dwells within them.
: PaulEphesians 2:2,3~"Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."
Yes, I understand fully that men of the flesh serve the desires of their wicked flesh and mind~(after all, Satan is not omnipresent and cannot be every where at once, he comes and go to and fro throughout this world, even the other evils spirits are much less powerful so all cannot be blamed on the devil, man is a devil by nature as far as doing wickedness, it comes naturally to him...it IS who he is by nature!) yet that does not mean that the spirit of the air does not
also work in them to put those wicked sins into motion~
both are true~just like the Spirit of God works in God's elect to bring forth godliness, yet it is the power of the new man within us that was created after Jesus' image that performs those godly deeds that God is well please in.
: 3 Resurrections Reply #76 on: Yesterday at 09:52:42 Satan does not need to be released for mankind to deceive itself - whether Jew or Gentile back in Solomon's days.
Agree, yet it increases greatly when he is released without any restrain put upon him by God.
: DavidPsalms 76:10~"Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain."
The key is God restraining Satan from using all of his power.
: THE HOLY GHOSTJob 1:12~"And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD."
Satan is a little god with not that much power and can only use what he has with permission from the God who is above all...so much above all.
: 3 Resurrections Reply #76 on: Yesterday at 09:52:42You claim that Satan was bound due to Christ's crucifixion, but it is the opposite. He was RELEASED from his chain at that point.
I'm coming back later to address this since it may take more space than I need to do here.
RB, you and I are in unity that the natural mind of man operates out of the corruption of that fallen nature. Satan may have been the one to jump-start this evil by his tempting of the originally-sinless couple, but since then, mankind in its fallen state does not require the presence of Satan for evil to be performed in this world. We are also in agreement that God allowed Satan to roam earth and heaven without restraint for a certain period of ages back in the OT days. And yes, this did magnify the level of natural evil that mankind was capable of performing.
I believe we are also in agreement that during the days of Christ's earthly ministry, that His actions and those of His disciples in casting out devils was proof that Satan's "goods" were being spoiled at that time; a sign of Satan's condition of "the strong man" being bound.
Where we differ is the point on the calendar when the chain of restraining Satan's deception was put on him, and when it was taken off. You would have us believe that the millennial binding of Satan continues until the end of the world as we know it. This cannot possibly be true. Revelation 20:3 and 7 tells us that when the millennium has "expired" and is "finished", that Satan is then released for a "little season" of time, to freely deceive the nations once more. So, the millennium cannot possibly extend to the very end of fallen man's history in this world.
Your theory has no answer for the comparison between the two texts I am highlighting - that of Revelation 12:12 and Revelation 20:3 and 7, which combine to prove that the millennium had already expired before Revelation was written, and that the "little season" and "short time" of Satan's renewed deception of the nations had already begun back then.
: 3 Resurrections Sun Jan 09, 2022 - 15:22:37RB, you and I are in unity that the natural mind of man operates out of the corruption of that fallen nature.
That is a given since Satan is not omnipresent, and neither are other evil spirits~they must come and go and CONSIDER what to do next~unlike God, who knows the end from the beginning and knows every single thought and detail in between, even every hair on every pigs belly that has ever walked this earth and that's not even touching his greatness.
Job 1:8~"And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?"
So, we know Satan is very limited in knowledge and knowing all~and certainly not omnipresent, i
n our flesh we all are little devils in the sense abominable evil dwell there~every honest soul should and does know this, it is much worst than most even imagine and wants to confess.
: 3 Resurrections Reply #81 on: Yesterday at 15:22:37 Satan may have been the one to jump-start this evil by his tempting of the originally-sinless couple,
Adam and Eve were created upright
without sin in their members, that came through Eve being deceived and Adam following his wife~at that point, their eyes were opened and they became the servants of
SIN and the father of sin, Satan himself~they took on his image, and in a sense became little devils and at enmity against God Almighty.
You and I know, that enmity is much worse than being an enemy~enmity means you are a
t constant war against each other and hate each other to a point that there is no comparison on earth like it~not even the
Hatfield–McCoy feud~which I personal were friends of some of their family members from both sides~even worshipped with one of them~one of the Hatfield descendants and knew well one of the McCoy girls descendants and still very close friends with her.
So, no jumpstart............ deception~and then ownership took place they became the devil's servant.
: 3 Resurrections Reply #81 on: Yesterday at 15:22:37We are also in agreement that God allowed Satan to roam earth and heaven without restraint for a certain period of ages back in the OT days.
The whole time from creation until Christ~yet a
certain amount of restraining was used from time to time, we know that by the fact God had always had his
seven thousand reserved who refuse to bow before Baal and other false God~that's a given form such scriptures as we quoted yesterday from
Psalms 76:10, etc. : 3 Resurrections Reply #81 on: Yesterday at 15:22:37I believe we are also in agreement that during the days of Christ's earthly ministry, that His actions and those of His disciples in casting out devils was proof that Satan's "goods" were being spoiled at that time; a sign of Satan's condition of "the strong man" being bound.
Base on what I just said, so, yes.
: 3 Resurrections Reply #81 on: Yesterday at 15:22:37Where we differ is the point on the calendar when the chain of restraining Satan's deception was put on him, and when it was taken off.
As far as
building the Gentiles churches of THE WORLD~
Matthew 28:19~"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
This requires a restraining of Satan that we shall cover soon.
: 3 Resurrections Reply #81 on: Yesterday at 15:22:37You would have us believe that the millennial binding of Satan continues until the end of the world as we know it. This cannot possibly be true. Revelation 20:3 and 7 tells us that when the millennium has "expired" and is "finished", that Satan is then released for a "little season" of time, to freely deceive the nations once more. So, the millennium cannot possibly extend to the very end of fallen man's history in this world.
Your theory has no answer for the comparison between the two texts I am highlighting - that of Revelation 12:12 and Revelation 20:3 and 7, which combine to prove that the millennium had already expired before Revelation was written, and that the "little season" and "short time" of Satan's renewed deception of the nations had already begun back then.
We shall see as we come to these scriptures. I'm not even finished answering your first post to me~give me the time I want to address each and every point an leave no stone uncovered~Rella is going to eat a lot of ::eatingpopcorn: ::eatingpopcorn: ::eatingpopcorn: before this is over.
3 Resurrections~I'm going to give you some scriptures along the way in this discussion for you to consider to prove that Satan and other evil spirits were not destroyed in 70 A.D. as the preterist believe. Here's the first one:
: JESUS CHRISTMatthew 13:24-30~"Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."
We need not to labor very long concerning the meaning of this parable for our Lord explains this parable for us, in detail, every single phrase that was used by him... consider:
: JESUS CHRISTMatthew 13:36-43~"Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."
3 Resurrections~the devil is here until the end of the world sowing his children among the wheat and both will be here together until then along with the devil. He works through his children until the harvest which is the end of this present world as we know it. There is more even within Matthew 13 to prove your doctrine has some serious holes in it.
My question to you is: do you have ears to hear this parable?
: RB Mon Jan 10, 2022 - 04:40:00
. I'm not even finished answering your first post to me~give me the time I want to address each and every point an leave no stone uncovered~Rella is going to eat a lot of ::eatingpopcorn: ::eatingpopcorn: ::eatingpopcorn: before this is over.
Keeping my mouth full ::eatingpopcorn: helps me keep my mouth shut when I get the urge to pipe in.... rofl.
At the same time gives me further study ::reading:: on both sides of your presentations ::tippinghat::
I promise to try and restrain myself. ::lookaround::
RB, you aren't a farmer apparently. Sowing in a wheat field is NOT done during the entire growing season. It is done at the beginning. Satan did his sowing of the wicked at the beginning in the Garden of Eden. The results grew up from there.
The harvest Jesus spoke of in this parable is not the "end of the WORLD" (oikoumene). It's "the consummation of the AGE" (aionos), even in the NKJV. "So shall it be at the end of THIS AGE". You really are crippled by not considering the original languages that the KJV translators had in front of them. God expects you to know at least SOME of the original languages. Even the KJV has a smattering of words and phrases in the original languages. This relic of the Greenville church false doctrine has stuck to you like glue, unfortunately. They had no use for the original languages either, which explains how a lot of their corrupt teaching grew up.
The "end of THIS AGE" meant the end of the age Christ was presently in at the time. Satan's "little season" of being loosed on earth lasted until the end of THAT AGE, and no longer, as we have other scripture that tells us when God got rid of the entire Satanic realm. God did this to display to humanity that, even without the presence of Satan and his devils in this world anymore, that humanity is just as creative (even more so) than the Devil ever was at rebellion against its Maker. It's humiliating, but true.
: 3 Resurrections Sun Jan 09, 2022 - 15:22:37
Your theory has no answer for the comparison between the two texts I am highlighting - that of Revelation 12:12 and Revelation 20:3 and 7, which combine to prove that the millennium had already expired before Revelation was written, and that the "little season" and "short time" of Satan's renewed deception of the nations had already begun back then.
However... gotta ask.
Sorry, RB... I need an answer to this and while I am sure you will get around to it perhaps 3Rs will enlighten both of us.
Hi3Rs,
You have been trying to impress on us that Rev 12:12, Rev 20: 3 and Rev 20:7 are "proof" to you that Satan has been already bound and then released.... the latest of which time could have been the temple destruction of 70AD. ... but without going to reread all the replies I think you suggested 66 AD (?).
This is the text from those verses: (All NASB 95)Rev 12:12
12 "For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time."
Rev 20:3
3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.
Rev 20:7
7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,
This does seem to be somewhat clear, but you are avoiding 3 scriptures that are sandwiched in between Rev 20 : 3 and 7.
Namely 4 thru 64 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
Verse 5 here definitively states that the "rest" of the dead would come to life once the 1000 years were complete, (after Satan's release,) so are you contending all who died from Adam onward, who did not reign with Jesus for the 1000 years, came back to life when Jesus was resurrected and ascended to God around 33AD when you contend that Satan was released?Verse 6 here definitely states that the first resurrectedees will (future tense) reign with Jesus for those 1000 years.
We have already previously established that Jesus' reign was or will be while Satan was or will be bound. Your verse 7 , as the continuation of 1 thru 7 confirms that. And verse 5 "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed" shows this happening once Satan is released.Again... apologies for jumping in at this time..... but did want to get these thoughts on record.
Hey Rella,
If I have not brought up Revelation 20:4-6 in this post yet, it isn't that I'm ignoring it. I have written copious amounts about these particular verses and the "First resurrection" on many another post.
The thrones that were mentioned in Revelation 20:4, with judgment given to those sitting on those thrones, were the 12 thrones that the 12 apostles were promised to sit upon when Christ had risen in the regeneration, and sat on the throne of His glory (Matthew 19:28 - "And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.")
Peter on the day of Pentecost announced that this was already an established throne which Christ had been seated upon (Acts 2:29-36 - "Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.")
Those "thrones of judgment" given to the 12 apostles gave them the responsibility to pass on Christ's doctrine to the early church; to establish these doctrines, and to pass judgment on various matters of church practices, since the apostles along with Christ the chief cornerstone provided the 12 foundations of the New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:14 - "And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.")
Those "souls" which were portrayed in Revelation 20:4-5 were the "remnant (loipoi) of the dead" which came to life again when the thousand years was finished. This event of the "remnant of the dead" coming to life again was called "the First Resurrection". This was the 144,000 First-fruits - the Matthew 27:52-53 saints raised on the same day as "Christ the First-fruits". Those 144,000 resurrected Jewish saints shared the very same title with Christ because they shared the very same "First Resurrection" event in AD 33 - when the millennium had just "expired".
Those "souls" in Revelation 20:4 during their natural lifetime on earth had each shared a part in living and reigning with Christ at some point during those thousand years when Satan was bound. Some had been martyred for their faithfulness, like the prophets Queen Jezebel murdered. Others had merely died naturally after a lifetime of faithfulness to God's word, like Daniel. During the years when the Sea Beast had existed (ever since Nebuchadnezzar's first attack on Jerusalem) some had refused to worship that Sea Beast, like Daniel's three friends; like those martyred by Antiochus Epiphanes for remaining faithful to the laws of Moses in those days, earning them a place in Hebrews' "Hall of Faith". Each in their turn shared a part in the benefits of a period of time when Satan's deception of the nations was bound.
But remember, simply because Satan's deception was bound during those thousand years did not mean that the nations could not deceive themselves. That was one of the purposes for this millennial binding of Satan; to show us that humanity was fully capable of deceiving itself, without any outside influence of Satan doing this deceiving.
3R's....Have some appointments early this morning so I'll answer your post later..RB
I stay up and watch Georgia beat big bad Alabama Crimson Tide last night and got a late start for today.
3 Resurrections,
The problem you are having with the two passages, Revelations 12:12 and 20:3, is that you are treating the Book of Revelation as events as happening in the chronological sequence in which they appear in the book. I truly believe that the correct approach to the structure of the Book of Revelation is one referred to as the cyclical or recapitulation view.
That view says that the contents of the book (after the introduction in chs. 1–3) form a series of parallel descriptions relevant to the whole of Christian history and the end time. This view has several important characteristics. First, it denies the assumption of the historical and futurist views, i.e., that chapters 4–22 are a single chronological series of events happening in an unbroken sequence. This means that the events of chapter 9, e.g., may or may not follow sequentially upon those of chapter 8; it means that the events of chapter 20, e.g., may or may not follow sequentially upon those of chapter 19. This means that we cannot assume that just because something is described in chapter 19 or in chapter 20, near the end of the book, that it must necessarily occur at the end of history. Instead of this chronological approach, the cyclical view says that Revelation 4–22 is divided into several sections that are parallel descriptions of church history and the end time.
Second, each of these parallel units is relevant to the entire sweep of church history from the first coming of Christ to his second coming. This does not mean that each unit necessarily covers the entire scope of Christian history. Each has its own perspective, its own focus, its own purpose. One may focus on the entire church age; another may concentrate upon the last days. One may describe events from the perspective of the church, another from the perspective of its enemies.
Third, each segment basically raises the same question, namely, "Who's in charge here?" In its symbolic reference to some aspect of Christian history, each unit of Revelation highlights the conflict between good and evil, specifically between Satan and his forces on the one hand, and God and his people on the other hand. The strength of the powers of evil and their enmity toward the church are emphasized, as is the reality of Christian suffering and tribulation. Thus, Revelation is addressed especially to Christians who find themselves to be the objects of persecution, and who ask with pious sincerity, "Who's in charge here? God, are you in control?"
Fourth and most significantly, each of the parallel segments in Revelation ends with the resounding note of victory! Christ is pictured as triumphing over Satan and his forces, bringing all his enemies to righteous judgment, and delivering his saints while sharing his victory with them. Like a symphony that develops a single strain or repeats the same musical refrain over and over yet in different ways, so does Revelation echo and reecho this single theme, this one main point several times in different ways: Christ is King!
I can go into more detail if you wish, detailing the five cyclical passages in the book. But I doubt that you will accept even what I have presented here. However, it clearly rebuts your contention that Revelation 12:12 and 20:3 combine to prove that the millennium had already expired before Revelation was written.
Briefly, chapter 12 starts a new cycle, and clearly begins with the birth of Christ (12:1-6). The conflict between Christ and the devil is prominent here. The spiritual warfare in 12:7-10 is a picture of the battle between Christ and Satan that occurred at Christ's first coming, and Satan's decisive defeat accomplished through Christ's death and resurrection.
This leads to the final segment (chs. 20–22), which begins with a symbolic description of a consequence of Christ's first coming: the binding of Satan. This marks the beginning of the church age, which is in fact the era of Christ's millennial kingdom.
Thus both 12:12 and 20:3 mark the beginning, not the end, of the Millennium. The Millennium is now. It began with the birth of Christ, His first coming, and will end with His second coming.
Good to see you back 4WD!
Thank you and Alan for all your efforts to make that happen.
: 4WD Tue Jan 11, 2022 - 11:22:11
Thank you and Alan for all your efforts to make that happen.
Place isn't the same without you. ::smile::
4WD, you are going to great lengths to construct a strawman. I'm in agreement that there is a recapitulation pattern going on in Revelation. I was posting in agreement with this point on Dr. Kenneth Gentry's site many years ago. Also, have you not read before where RB and I expressed agreement with each other on this very point here on this forum? Perhaps you missed it.
This established pattern of recapitulation in Revelation does NOT contradict the comparison that I am making between these two texts, Revelation 12:12 and Revelation 20:3 and 7. In fact, it proves it. In Revelation 12:12, John is directly speaking to his readers about a current state of affairs in the world; warning them in their days of the dangers of a then-presently-released Satan who only had a "short time" left to operate in the world. This is a plain speech of warning that even a child in those days could understand.
This language describing Satan's release for a "short time" is brought up once more in Revelation 20:3 and 7 when it tells us that Satan is released from his millennial chain for that "short time" at the end of those thousand years. This is an example of recapitulation in Revelation. Same subject of Satan's "short time" of release. Brought up for a second time.
The "church age" is NOT the millennial age. The millennial age of a literal thousand years ENDED with the introduction of the new covenant with the church in AD 33. The millennium was merely a foreshadowing of the "church age", which was a vast improvement to the literal thousand-year age of a physical Temple worship system. That physical Temple worship system was supposed to give way for the superior spiritual Temple not made with hands, built upon Christ the "chief cornerstone" who was rejected by the physical Temple builders of that generation.
The first resurrection, as RB has stated, is the spiritual resurrection of regeneration described in John 5:24-25 and elsewhere. The second resurrection, also spiritual, is the resurrection of the spiritual body described in 1 Corinthians 16. The binding of Satan is as I described in reply #77. At the end of the "Millennium" Satan is to be released; how long that release will be, we are not told. But we know that he will eventually be cast into the "lake of fire and sulfur", and then comes the Judgment before the Great White Throne. Following that we read of The New Heaven and the New Earth, the New Jerusalem, the River of Life.
The "First resurrection" is the first resurrection event in chronology on the timeline, according to 1 Corinthians 15:23. Christ was the First-fruits. Then AFTERWARD the next resurrection event would take place at Christ's coming. That makes this "First resurrection" more than just a spiritual regeneration every time someone comes to faith in Christ. You and RB are in error on this.
Because the millennium ENDED with the First resurrection event, when the remnant of the dead came to life again, according to Revelation 20:5. That "remnant of the dead" was the Matthew 27:52-53 Jewish saints who came to life again on the same day of Christ's resurrection. THEY along with Christ composed the "First resurrection", which came when the millennium was "finished" and had "expired".
: Alan Tue Jan 11, 2022 - 11:45:59
Place isn't the same without you. ::smile::
No, it is not. Glad to see our friend back. Jarrod was a big help as well~we have a great company of moderators.
: 3 Resurrections Tue Jan 11, 2022 - 13:44:13
The "First resurrection" is the first resurrection event in chronology on the timeline, according to 1 Corinthians 15:23. Christ was the First-fruits. Then AFTERWARD the next resurrection event would take place at Christ's coming. That makes this "First resurrection" more than just a spiritual regeneration every time someone comes to faith in Christ. You and RB are in error on this.
Because the millennium ENDED with the First resurrection event, when the remnant of the dead came to life again, according to Revelation 20:5. That "remnant of the dead" was the Matthew 27:52-53 Jewish saints who came to life again on the same day of Christ's resurrection. THEY along with Christ composed the "First resurrection", which came when the millennium was "finished" and had "expired".
Nah!
: 3 Resurrections Tue Jan 11, 2022 - 13:44:13
The "First resurrection" is the first resurrection event in chronology on the timeline, according to 1 Corinthians 15:23. Christ was the First-fruits. Then AFTERWARD the next resurrection event would take place at Christ's coming. That makes this "First resurrection" more than just a spiritual regeneration every time someone comes to faith in Christ. You and RB are in error on this.
Not so fast as Lee Corso would say. The scriptures said:
Revelation 20:6~Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
The first resurrection biblical speaking and as the Holy Ghost teaches as far as those that the second death has
no power over is clearly a spiritual resurrection that takes place when one is born again.
We shall soon consider Revelation 20:6 in-depth, the Lord willing.
: 3 Resurrections on: Today at 13:44:13That "remnant of the dead" was the Matthew 27:52-53 Jewish saints who came to life again on the same day of Christ's resurrection.
3 Reusrrections~
legally every saint, past, then present, and future saints were resurrected when God brought from the dead our Lord Jesus Christ~we were members of his elect body from eternity.
: PaulEphesians 2:5-7~"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus."
So, your three phases of Resurrection have left out the main one! The others ones (being born again, our bodily resurrection on the last day) are the results of this one! The first resurrection at the new birth and our faith and obedience to the word of God is
evidence that the second death has no power over that person.
: 3 Resurrections on: Today at 13:44:13 That "remnant of the dead" was the Matthew 27:52-53 Jewish saints who came to life again on the same day of Christ's resurrection. THEY along with Christ composed the "First resurrection"
We shall see as we work through this subject, I would say you will be disappointed, but I'm sure you believe otherwise on your newly founded doctrine. So, you limit the first resurrection to Jewish believers only~let us see as we continue. I first need to finish your first post which I plan of doing before moving on.
: 3 Resurrections Sat Jan 08, 2022 - 09:52:42A loosed Satan is why we have the text about the saints putting on the whole armor of God at that point in Ephesians 6:11-18, so that they could withstand the attacks of Satan. That is NOT a chained-up Satan in that text.
Let me go back and finish the post I originally started with you so no one can accuse me of skipping anything of what they may consider very important to their position.
So are you saying that even such scriptures as:
: The HOLY GHOST TO ALL SAINTS throughout the church history from Pentecost until Christ's second comingEphesians 6:10-18~"Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;"
Is not for us
today? Notice, Paul
did not say that you may be able to stand against the wiles of THE FLESH, where you desire to LIMIT this warfare, but he clearly said we should put on the whole armour of God that ye may be able to stand against
the wiles of the devil. Our sinful flesh and the devil are not one and the same as some Sadducees would have us to believe~Mountain Retreat forum being one of them!
The biblical truth is: Satan has been loose since the beginning of creation and was bound~(
not to make him INACTIVE, but to restrain him) at the beginning of the NT church age, from Pentecost
until the little season at the end of the world called the time of Jacob's trouble~that is:
spiritual Jacob, the very elect within the professing body of Christ.
But you say, Satan and all evil spirits were destroyed in 70 A.D. which makes such scriptures according to your doctrine useless for us today! Actually, you make almost all of the word of God useless to be honest.
: 3 Resurrections Reply #76 on: Sat Jan 08, 2022 - 09:52:42A loosed Satan is why we have verses such as 2 Timothy 2:26, with the saints being encouraged to recover themselves out of the snare of the Devil, who were being taken captive by him "at his will". That is NOT a chained-up Satan in that text.
I could just as easily say and more so say to you, that such scriptures
does not equate to a
destroyed Satan and other evil spirit, now does it?
Again Satan being bounded does not mean he is not active, of course, he has since the Garden of Eden tempting our first parents~ it just means that his power is LIMITED until a little season toward the end of this world as we know it.
: 3 Resurrections Reply #76 on: Sat Jan 08, 2022 - 09:52:42You would have us believe that the millennium will continue until the last day of this world as we know it. That is pure contradiction to your own beliefs, since you say that at the last day, history for mankind is over completely. So how can the millennium end at the last day, when scripture tells us very plainly that Satan is afterward released for a "little season" when the millennium is "expired" and "finished"?
The scriptures you are referencing are:
: JohnRevelation 20:7-9~"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."
The time expired to be would be the coming to the end of completion of the NT church per such scriptures as:
: Peter2nd Peter 3:9,10~"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."
3 Resurrections~once all come to repentance, then God will come, it does not have to be on the
same day, for with God one day is as a thousand years, knowing God uses time FOR US not for him, he just said when the church age (the thousand years) is expired, then Satan will be loose for a little season, a little season as WE KNOW TIME. Bottom line~when Satan is loose, and we see the evidence of this (deception and many false prophets) then we as believers should know we are IN that little season~what we do not know exactly when it started or when it will end.
Personally, I believe it started around 1800 and is nearer its end. I base this on the many false sects (Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, SDA, Pentecostalism, etc) that have arisen in this world since then and all the false bibles that started at the same time
RB, you are totally ignoring the text of Revelation 12:12 in which John announced that Satan was PRESENTLY LOOSED for his designated period of a "SHORT TIME". Why is this so difficult for you? Why is this so difficult for anybody? Satan's "little season" did not last from the first century until the end of the world as we know it sometime in our future. That theory goes contrary to every sense of what a "little season" is by scripture's own definitions.
God defined what a LONG SEASON was back in Joshua 24:7, compared with Deuteronomy 8:2. A "LONG SEASON" lasted a total of 40 years of wilderness wanderings for the Israelites. So if a "LONG SEASON" is 40 years, then a "LITTLE SEASON" for Satan to be loosed from his chain cannot possibly last as long as that 40 years. If John said that Satan's "short time" had already begun back in those days, then from the time that Revelation was written, LESS than 40 years would go by before Satan was destroyed, as God predicted He would "slay the Dragon that is in the sea".
You have a strange idea of fulfilled scripture becoming "useless". Is Christ's fulfilled crucifixion "useless" because it has already occurred? Is the inauguration of the New Covenant "useless" because it was launched long ago back in AD 33? Is Joel 2:28-31's prophecy about the Spirit being poured out on all flesh in those first-century days "useless" because that period has expired by now? If Christ fulfilled the scripture promise to destroy Satan already, does that make reading about His victory over Satan's entire realm "useless"? It should be FAITH-CONFIRMING to read about Christ fulfilling His promises, just as He declared He would do, and in the exact time He promised to perform those actions.
We no longer need the "whole armor of God" to defend against a non-existent Satan, who was destroyed long ago. That Ephesians 6 text was a warning for THAT generation to give heed to. Satan was indeed operating in full deceptive mode, in great wrath making war on the saints during that "little season" in John's days. The "whole armor of God" was an absolute necessity for those times. But not anymore. We have our hands full with HUMANITY"S own deception of itself to do battle with since then. This is hardly a "limited" battle, since it emerges from our own hearts as well as everybody else's heart.
As for the definition of the "First Resurrection" and its "expiration", you have always been off base and will probably never change. You have no concept of what the "First-fruits" means, or what the "First-born" status entailed for Christ as compared to the rest of the 144,000 Jewish "First-fruits" raised from the dead that same day as Christ arose. You have no concept of what the "Second Death" is, as defined by scripture itself. We have gone over all these points before, and neither of us is altering our position.
: 3 Resurrections Wed Jan 12, 2022 - 09:36:29We have gone over all these points before, and neither of us is altering our position.
Yes you have and you are wrong, horribly wrong, and RB is correct; for the most part at least.
4WD, From what I remember of previous conversations with you, your position is totally against a bodily resurrection for the believers, am I right? This is one of the key foundational doctrines that Hebrews 6:1-2 said was just basic beginner's instruction in the faith . If you can't even get this basic doctrine right, why should I give credence to anything else you might build on top of that?
It does absolutely nothing for your case simply to say, "you are horribly wrong". This is your mere opinion, and worth no more and no less than anyone else's opinion. I figure you are close enough to glory when you will be perfected in knowledge, and probably sooner than I will be. In the meantime, you'll pardon me if I trust the scriptures in front of me rather than opinions expressed by those who can't figure out the bodily resurrection...yet.
: 3 Resurrections Wed Jan 12, 2022 - 09:36:29
RB, you are totally ignoring the text of Revelation 12:12 in which John announced that Satan was PRESENTLY LOOSED for his designated period of a "SHORT TIME".
Give me time, I haven't gotten to that scriptures yet, but will. I just got up from a nap ::smile:: and will leave shortly, I might get back in time to say more today, but it might have to wait until tomorrow the Lord willing to give us another day to see and speak.
You should know me by now that I will never purposely refuse to address any scripture placed before to address. I want the truth as much as the next man~I believe the same for others here since I cannot see the hearts of anyone, so charity demands me to give them the benefit of any doubt I may have.
Btw, you said:
: 3 Resurrections on: Today at 09:36:29 Satan's "little season" did not last from the first century until the end of the world as we know it sometime in our future. That theory goes contrary to every sense of what a "little season" is by scripture's own definitions.
No one has said Satan's "little" season has lasted
: 3 Resurrections on: Today at 09:36:29from the first century until the end of the world as we know it sometime in our future
That is the time of God restraining him so the Gentiles could hear the gospel and receive Jesus Christ.
Toward the end of
God visiting the Gentiles, when they like Israel of old turn from hearing the word of God, then God will lose Satan and his false ministers upon them for a period of time called in the scriptures a "short time/little season".
Later....RB
: 3 Resurrections Wed Jan 12, 2022 - 11:28:17
4WD, From what I remember of previous conversations with you, your position is totally against a bodily resurrection for the believers, am I right? This is one of the key foundational doctrines that Hebrews 6:1-2 said was just basic beginner's instruction in the faith .
I can provide scriptures that could be said to support a physical bodily resurrection, but Hebrews 6:1-2 surely is not one of them. ::smile:: I should add here that I do distinguish, as I believe the scriptures do, between a raising of the dead and the resurrection to eternal life. I'll not bother here to pursue that.
RB, I also caught 3 Res' misstatement about the time of Satan's "little season". I started to respond buy then decided not to bother.
4WD and RB, this is NOT a misstatement of mine that your theory would present Satan's "little season" and "short time" as lasting until the end of the world as we know it. You claim that Satan and his minions are still in existence, and will be until the end of the world. John said Satan's "short time" and "little season" of being loosed in the world had already begun in his days, according to Revelation 12:12. If we accept your theory that Satan is still in existence, then Satan's "short time" and "little season" would then have to last from the first century in John's days until the end of the world as we know it. Which is wrong, and a gross distortion of what scripture calls a "little season" (which at the very least would be less than 40 years duration, which is called a "long season" in Joshua 24:7).
Yet you are also contradicting John in Revelation 12:12 when you claim that Satan is presently bound today, and will be until the end of the world as we know it. John said Satan was LOOSED from his bonds for his designated "short time" in those days when he was writing Revelation. You are both trying to wiggle around that very, very plain statement of John's in Revelation 12:12. It can't be done. The millennium had ended before Revelation was being written, and a wrathful Satan was THEN AT THAT PRESENT TIME LOOSED for just a "SHORT TIME" to deceive the nations at the end of that millennium. There is plenty of scripture evidence of Satan's then-current deception of the nations going on in NT days. This is based on repeated warnings by Christ and the writers of the epistles to NOT be deceived in those days by Satan's wiles and the deception by seducers and those following false doctrines.
: 3 Resurrections Wed Jan 12, 2022 - 17:03:484WD and RB, this is NOT a misstatement of mine that your theory would present Satan's "little season" and "short time" as lasting until the end of the world as we know it.
It
is misrepresenting our teaching, even though it does not misrepresent your understanding, but your understanding is not necessarily the truth as you strongly believe. You believe Satan was loose in Revelation 12~that is not the TIME of him being loose,
but when he was cast out of heaven.
: JohnRevelation 12:9~ "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the devil and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."
When Christ sent the 70 (the number 70 was representing the fullness or totality of the church) out to witness two by two, and when they returned He said He saw Satan as lightning fall from heaven (
Luke 10:18), this is what Revelation 12 is symbolizing. The accuser is cast out! There is no longer a fear of death as the law does not condemn us, and he no longer has any power to accuse the Church. Ultimately through Christ's death and resurrection, Satan was cast out and
the Lord's army gained the Victory. They went forth Conquering and to conquer,
Revelation 6:1) because Christ went forth Conquering and to Conquer and they were risen in Him. They go forth in battle, and overcome not of themselves, but by the blood of Christ. Satan and all devils are subject to them through Christ's by the power of the cross.
Christ gave us the power to overcome Satan by the Cross alone, and this assured that nothing Satan could do could harm us. He can Kill us, have us stoned to death, or fed to the Lions, but ultimately, he has lost and has no power in the Kingdom of God because
his accusations mean nothing because of the work of Christ. He cannot harm us in any way, and certainly not by false Gospels:
: JESUS CHRISTMark 16:17,18~"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."
Again:
: THE HOLY GHOSTLuke 10:17-19~And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you."
Some people want to handle literal snakes, or think that they can drink literal poison to prove their faith~ But that's not what is in view. When Mark 16 says we can pick up serpents and not be harmed, and when this verse says we can tred on serpents and scorpions and not be hurt, what is in view is Satan and his ministers with their false gospel. He is the Serpent that cannot harm us, not a literal snake in the grass. He is the scorpion whose sting in his tail cannot harm us~it is gone as far as hurting God's very elect This is Symbolic language, not a literal promise that you can't be poisoned or killed by a snake! Sad to say, I have drunk too much poison by hearing and following false prophets and their teachings~but thanks be unto God, he delivered me from them. These things are the results of Satan being cast out of heaven.
It was Christ who cast Satan from heaven, and it's through Christ that we have the power over serpents, scorpions, Poisonous drinks.
Poisons from the lips of Satan's false Prophets. This took place at the beginning of the NT churches being established throughout the Romans empire. As he was cast out, his power to deceive was restrained so the Gentiles world could hear the gospel~but, they like Israel of old begin to reject the truth for other gods that could not see, speak, and without power to deliver them; so Satan was release upon them with his ministers and their false gospel~oh, they, for the most part, stay very religious just as Israel of old, but the like Israel turn the truth of God into a lie.
When Satan was cast out of heaven he knew his time was short, yet this time period is not the SAME time period as the little season, because in the following scriptures in Revelation 12 point to the
WHOLE time of the NT church age as we can consider later in this study/debate, etc.
It is WOE to not only the saints, but to.....
Woe unto the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! The cross success doomed Satan and he KNEW IT, so it caused great wrath and this wrath will be upon ALL
the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! In Revelation twenty during that little season, his wrath is directed toward the camp of the saints mainly. Two totally different events.
: 3 Resurrections on: Yesterday at 17:03:48 You claim that Satan and his minions are still in existence, and will be until the end of the world.
I must come back, to address this, or I'll have a long post for most to read and profit thereby.
RB, you and I are in unity, I believe, that Christ is the one on the white horse going forth "conquering and to conquer" from the days of the early church. As you have said in your last comment, this was to do battle with Satan. However, this makes no sense to say that Christ was going forth on a white horse to do battle with Satan if Satan was then in a BOUND condition with his deception being stopped for that time. Why was Christ doing battle on a white horse, going out "conquering and to conquer" if Satan was then in a bound condition? This is contradictory.
You have yet to address why Paul Peter mentions Satan walking about as a roaring lion, seeking those he could devour in those days, and how there could be those who were being taken captive by the snare of the Devil at his will in those days. There is no way Satan could have been doing those things back in those days of the early church if he was then presently bound and forbidden to deceive the nations at that time.
Satan was LOOSED on the inhabitants of the earth and the sea for a "SHORT TIME" in those days. Cast out of heaven's realm forever, and only temporarily consigned to freely roam the earth and sea for only a brief period of time after Christ's ascension. Contrary to what you are saying, this "SHORT TIME" actually IS the same as the "LITTLE SEASON" at the end of the millennium when Satan was loosed from his chain. It is NOT the "whole time of the NT church age", because that is certainly NOT a "SHORT TIME".
When you attempt to blur the meaning of these time-relevant terms, you are obscuring the interpretation that scripture intends to give. You have no justification for doing this. If God describes a "little season" as being shorter than a "long season" of 40 years, then this is the meaning we are to understand. You have no scriptural grounds to extend a "SHORT TIME" and a "LITTLE SEASON" to extend some 2,000 years and counting. Satan's "SHORT TIME" of operating in the world back in Revelation 12:12 was over long ago, and he and his minions no longer exist on this planet.
It amazes me that you are so devoted to still having Satan around. Why is the continued presence of Satan so necessary to your paradigm? Indeed, realizing that he is gone from this world since AD 70 only gives further proof of the level of natural depravity in mankind, which I KNOW you agree with. This human depravity does NOT require the presence of Satan to express itself, even in its most evil manifestations.
You and many others are confused about what is meant by Satan being bound. Read [again?] my reply #77 on the binding of Satan.
4WD, it is stated simply enough in scripture what the binding of Satan is. "... that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled." Very simple. Satan's favorite activity as the "Father of lies" would be shut down for a literal thousand years. Which is NOT to say that there was no deception taking place in the world during that time. Because the nations were still able to deceive themselves without Satan's contribution to that deception. The millennium period was not designed to be a utopia on earth, as many try to characterize it. There is no scriptural backing for such an idea.
You are correct; the millennium was "not designed to be a utopia on earth, as many try to characterize it". The millennium is the church age, beginning with the first coming of Christ. The millennium is now! The millennium will end with Satan's release from his prison (Rev 20:7).
I would point out to you that Revelation 12-14 one of the five recapitulations in the book that begins with the first coming of Christ, the beginning of the millennium, and ends with the second coming of Christ and the Harvest of the earth, at the end of the millennium.
4WD, the millennium cannot possibly be now. This flat-out contradicts John in Revelation 12:12. The millennium was DONE and FINISHED by then, since Satan had been cast out of heaven, and was at that time loose in the world, for that "short time" AFTER the millennium had ended.
Not only are you contradicting John, but you are contradicting your own position. How can you possibly have the millennium ending with the second coming of Christ and the Harvest of the earth, if Satan is then supposed to be LOOSED for a short time AFTER that millennium ends? This is an impossibility. You're not thinking straight.
: 4WD Thu Jan 13, 2022 - 11:34:54You are correct; the millennium was "not designed to be a utopia on earth, as many try to characterize it". The millennium is the church age, beginning with the first coming of Christ. The millennium is now! The millennium will end with Satan's release from his prison (Rev 20:7).
I would point out to you that Revelation 12-14 one of the five recapitulations in the book that begins with the first coming of Christ, the beginning of the millennium, and ends with the second coming of Christ and the Harvest of the earth, at the end of the millennium.
Agreed~we very briefly covered this:
Reply #75 on: Sat Jan 08, 2022 - 08:46:52,
: Resurrections Reply #110 on: Today at 11:09:024WD, it is stated simply enough in scripture what the binding of Satan is. "... that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled."
True, but the sense could
only mean:
to the same degree he did in days from creation of man until the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. : 3 Resurrections Reply #108 on: Today at 10:15:32RB, you and I are in unity, I believe, that Christ is the one on the white horse going forth "conquering and to conquer" from the days of the early church. As you have said in your last comment, this was to do battle with Satan. However, this makes no sense to say that Christ was going forth on a white horse to do battle with Satan if Satan was then in a BOUND condition with his deception being stopped for that time. Why was Christ doing battle on a white horse, going out "conquering and to conquer" if Satan was then in a bound condition? This is contradictory.
Have you never read so much as this:
: PaulActs 26:18~"To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me."
Of course you have read this, yet you have come to believe it
all stop in 70 A.D.. So, let me ask you this question: Did this type of biblical evangelism just stop
before it truly ever started according to your doctrine. Are men today delivered from the kingdom of Satan into the kingdom of God's dear Son? Satan does have a kingdom you should know:
: JESUS CHRISTMatthew 12:26~"And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?"
He IS the god of this present wicked world, that has never changed, even though with limited power. You no longer believe such scriptures pertain to us as:
2nd Corinthians 11:3, 13-15~"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.....................For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."
Well, Satan
and his ministers are very much alive and active and are multiplying daily. : 3 Resurrections Reply #108 on: Today at 10:15:32You have yet to address why Paul mentions Satan walking about as a roaring lion, seeking those he could devour in those days, and how there could be those who were being taken captive by the snare of the Devil at his will in those days.
I cannot address everything at once, give me time~btw, it was Peter who said those words in 1st Peter 5:8. Later......RB
Got the typo, RB, thanks. I'm posting in a hurry. Will get that fixed...
As you know, Paul's commission on the Damascus Road, and especially in the temple vision in AD 37, was to be the Apostle to the Gentiles. Paul "labored more abundantly than they all" at this task. He was able to say that the gospel had been preached unto "every creature under heaven". Did he lie? Not if we are to believe Colossians 1:23 and 1:6. Paul was martyred in AD 67 by Nero's orders, but this evangelism to the Gentiles did not stop with Paul's death.
However, in AD 70 when God "slew the Dragon" as He promised to do back in Isaiah 27:1, then Satan's kingdom had no more standing in this world. That is why Hebrews 12 promised that in those days, not only the earth, but the heavens would be shaken, so that those powers which could be shaken would be "REMOVED". That means Satan's kingdom as the "Prince of the power of the air" was not only going to be shaken, but it was going to be "REMOVED" also.
You wrote about Satan's kingdom being divided against itself, which would cause it to fall. Satan's kingdom was certainly divided against itself in that first century, because his followers made war on each other. After all, what do you think Zealotry was in those days? It was Israelites practicing civil war against the people of their own nation. They were divided against themselves, with each of those Zealot leaders absolutely convinced that they could become the military Messiah over their own nation and the world, once they could defeat Rome. A "great delusion" - of course. They took their own Daniel prophecies and selfishly twisted them to their own destruction.
But what could be expected if that wicked generation was going to have a seven-fold increase in demonic possession before it had ended? Christ promised that this was going to happen, back in Matthew 12:43-45 in the "last state" of that wicked generation which had rejected His personal ministry among them.
With the destruction of Satan and his devils and every unclean spirit in Jerusalem back in AD 70, anyone coming to Christ after that is just added spoils being brought into the kingdom of God's dear Son. The enemy Satan and his devils are literally dead, and are no longer around to personally exercise their power in this world. The human "children of the devil" can do their worst, but this has no effect on God's ultimate plans to continually increase the numbers of those being adopted into His kingdom.
Satan is NOT the god of this present world. Christ even now is presently wearing those "many crowns" of Satan's confiscated kingdoms, once He slew that Dragon back in AD 70. Christ presently "rules in the midst of His enemies", and of the increase of His government and of His peace between God and regenerated man there shall be no end.
The difference between your pessimistic attitude regarding the state of affairs in this world and God's own optimistic plans for it are obviously opposed to each other. Thank you, no, I prefer to adopt God's attitude with His intended plans of incrementally increasing His kingdom in this world. I don't want to be insulting, but I live with someone with your same attitude toward life, people, and the world in general, and frankly, it is poisonous to be around. THEY are the ones with the resulting health problems - not me. I can't live like that, and I don't think God intended that for His children.
: 3 Resurrections Thu Jan 13, 2022 - 13:20:28
Not only are you contradicting John, but you are contradicting your own position. How can you possibly have the millennium ending with the second coming of Christ and the Harvest of the earth, if Satan is then supposed to be LOOSED for a short time AFTER that millennium ends? This is an impossibility. You're not thinking straight.
I am thinking straight enough. The millennium ends, Satan is loosed for a little while, he is then defeated and thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, then Jesus returns, and judgment proceeds (Rev 20 7-15,)
4WD, your basic chronology is on target, but your verb tenses are wrong.
"The millennium ENDED, Satan WAS LOOSED for a little while in those first-century days (according to Revelation 12:12), he WAS then defeated and thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, then Jesus RETURNED, and judgment PROCEEDED." All of which events were brought to a conclusion soon after in John's days, since he said those events were "at hand" to the time he was writing those prophecies.
And you haven't included the prophetic texts which speak about the punishment of the "high ones that are on high" being imprisoned within the city of Jerusalem (Isaiah 24:21-23). Jerusalem's Lake of Fire in the AD 66-70 era was "prepared for the devil and his angels". The city of Jerusalem was going to become a "prison" (phulake) for every unclean spirit that existed (Revelation 18:2), along with the inhabitants of the besieged city being trapped with them.
Christ said earlier that in that wicked generation's "last state", the members of the demonic realm would return to the very ones out of whom He had cast out those devils, who would bring with them other devils seven times more wicked than the ones that had originally plagued that wicked generation before during its "first state" under Christ's earthly ministry. The result of this toxic mix of imprisoned demons and inhabitants of Jerusalem was the "Great Tribulation" which had never before been experienced, and would never again be experienced at any time future to that generation.
: 3 Resurrections Thu Jan 13, 2022 - 14:48:11s you know, Paul's commission on the Damascus Road, and especially in the temple vision in AD 37, was to be the Apostle to the Gentiles. Paul "labored more abundantly than they all" at this task. He was able to say that the gospel had been preached unto "every creature under heaven". Did he lie? Not if we are to believe Colossians 1:23 and 1:6. Paul was martyred in AD 67 by Nero's orders, but this evangelism to the Gentiles did not stop with Paul's death.
I agree with John Gill more than what the Preterist and the Historic folks teach concerning Colossians 1:23: "This must be understood not of every individual creature, even human and rational, that was then, or had been in, the world;
but that it had been, and was preached far and near, in all places all over the world, to the Gentiles as well as to the Jews;
who are sometimes styled "every creature", "the creature", "the whole creation", "all men" see (Romans 8:19-22; Titus 2:11 )"
Even as late in our own times, some tribes of the earth have never heard the name of Jesus Christ~who just might have YOU for lunch if you even attempt to preach to them!
: 3 Resurrections Reply #114 on: Yesterday at 14:48:11However, in AD 70 when God "slew the Dragon" as He promised to do back in Isaiah 27:1, then Satan's kingdom had no more standing in this world. That is why Hebrews 12 promised that in those days, not only the earth, but the heavens would be shaken, so that those powers which could be shaken would be "REMOVED". That means Satan's kingdom as the "Prince of the power of the air" was not only going to be shaken, but it was going to be "REMOVED" also.
Isaiah 27:1.... has yet taken place~we hope to prove in a post totally committed to that one subject coming soon.
Satan's kingdom of darkness is still here with his children living therein with their father and other fallen angles~evil and wicked spirit. To say this is not true, then you would also say many NT scriptures are no longer for us to heed in our day, not just a few, but most of them~according to your teachings. We shall consider in that post we will make dedicated to that subject.
: 3 Resurrections Reply #114 on: Yesterday at 14:48:11You wrote about Satan's kingdom being divided against itself, which would cause it to fall.
Those are
your words not mine~I quoted Matthew 12:26 to
prove Satan had a kingdom, which we have been delivered from~I said not a word about his kingdom being divide and falling~as a matter of fact his kingdom is more determined to push their evil and wicked agenda much more than the children of LIGHT are their's, which is very sad to say. Apart from Christ's victory over sin, death, and Satan, there would be no victory for us~Christ secured this for us. When Jesus comes again~shall he find faith on the earth he once asked his disciples:
: JESUS CHRISTLuke 18:7,8~"And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?"
Very few will he find when he comes again, that is strong faith~oh, there will children of God in the earth, but very weak and almost at a point of being overcome of the beast. (you do know who the beast is do you not?)
: 3 Resurrections Reply #114 on: Yesterday at 14:48:11But what could be expected if that wicked generation was going to have a seven-fold increase in demonic possession before it had ended? Christ promised that this was going to happen, back in Matthew 12:43-45 in the "last state" of that wicked generation which had rejected His personal ministry among them.
Just a word or two more, then I'm stopping for now since I have grandchildren that drove it late last night and some more coming in today. I was asleep when they got here, Sherry was up waiting on them, so Ill see them shortly.
3 Resurrection~You got some of JRC beliefs where he taught the generation of Jews living when Christ was here was the most wicked generation of men that ever lived at one time in this world~using the phrase WICKED GENERATION as used by Christ several times in the gospel.
But what could be expected if that wicked generation was going to have a seven-fold increase in demonic possession before it had ended?
Every time in the gospel where evil, wicked generation is used WITHOUT an exception it refers to the generation of VIPERS, or the children of the devil....WITHOUT EXCEPTION this is true. THIS generation is used several times and each time it has reference to the WICKED AND EVIL generation of little snakes! Never does it has reference to the common use of the word generation, God's word is its own dictionary and will define it use of words for us. This is a post within itself that we might have to do, to establish our position on this. As a matter of truth~that then living generation of folks well may be the most righteous generation of men on the face of the earth at one given time when you consider: the apostles, John the Baptist, and thousands of others we read about in the gospels and the book of Acts~pretty sure the like the world has never seen at ONE given time.
: 3 Resurrections Thu Jan 13, 2022 - 18:37:33
"The millennium ENDED, Satan WAS LOOSED for a little while in those first-century days (according to Revelation 12:12),
Revelation 12:12 is a prophetic vision, not a history lesson. You are only trying [in vain] to impose your nonbiblical beliefs of Preterism onto Scripture.
Has the devil and his angles been judged and destroyed according to those who hold to the doctrine of Preterism?
Preterism: Eschatological view, interprets most or all prophecies of the Bible as events that have already happened~mainly in 70 A.D.
: THE HOLY GHOStJude verse 6~"And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Not a word about being destroyed
before the great day of judgment at the Great White Throne Judgment.
: THE HOLY GHOST2nd Peter 2:4~For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;"
We have here the mouth of TWO witnesses both which were apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ tells us how God spare not the angles that sinned at the beginning and his judgment upon them when they did sin.
1. God has RESERVED them in everlasting chain (or that which cannot be broken)
under darkness.
2. God cast them down to hell~or, a curse upon them where they shall never see the TRUE LIGHT of understanding, but shall go to and fro seeking rest but finding none. He has left them under a most powerful state of darkness so powerful, they do the devils' bidding~though he is WITH THEM under these chains of darkness, and truly believes he can overthrow the Most High.
3. These fallen angels will be left in this state of darkness until the judgment of the GREAT DAY.
: THE FALLEN ANGELSMatthew 8:29~
"And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?"
No, he was not come to torment
before the great day of judgment. 70 A.D. was NOT that great DAY of judgment, regardless of the vain and wicked teachings of Preterism.
Later, we will add to his post.
Re: Is the "Last Day" symbolic or is the "1000 Years" symbolic?
« Reply #117 on: Today at 04:55:07 »
ReplyQuote
Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Yesterday at 14:48:11
s you know, Paul's commission on the Damascus Road, and especially in the temple vision in AD 37, was to be the Apostle to the Gentiles. Paul "labored more abundantly than they all" at this task. He was able to say that the gospel had been preached unto "every creature under heaven". Did he lie? Not if we are to believe Colossians 1:23 and 1:6. Paul was martyred in AD 67 by Nero's orders, but this evangelism to the Gentiles did not stop with Paul's death.
I agree with John Gill more than what the Preterist and the Historic folks teach concerning Colossians 1:23: "This must be understood not of every individual creature, even human and rational, that was then, or had been in, the world; but that it had been, and was preached far and near, in all places all over the world, to the Gentiles as well as to the Jews; who are sometimes styled "every creature", "the creature", "the whole creation", "all men" see (Romans 8:19-22; Titus 2:11 )"
Even as late in our own times, some tribes of the earth have never heard the name of Jesus Christ~who just might have YOU for lunch if you even attempt to preach to them!
Quote from: 3 Resurrections Reply #114 on: Yesterday at 14:48:11
However, in AD 70 when God "slew the Dragon" as He promised to do back in Isaiah 27:1, then Satan's kingdom had no more standing in this world. That is why Hebrews 12 promised that in those days, not only the earth, but the heavens would be shaken, so that those powers which could be shaken would be "REMOVED". That means Satan's kingdom as the "Prince of the power of the air" was not only going to be shaken, but it was going to be "REMOVED" also.
Isaiah 27:1.... has yet taken place~we hope to prove in a post totally committed to that one subject coming soon.
Satan's kingdom of darkness is still here with his children living therein with their father and other fallen angles~evil and wicked spirit. To say this is not true, then you would also say many NT scriptures are no longer for us to heed in our day, not just a few, but most of them~according to your teachings. We shall consider in that post we will make dedicated to that subject.
Quote from: 3 Resurrections Reply #114 on: Yesterday at 14:48:11
You wrote about Satan's kingdom being divided against itself, which would cause it to fall.
Those are your words not mine~I quoted Matthew 12:26 to prove Satan had a kingdom, which we have been delivered from~I said not a word about his kingdom being divide and falling~as a matter of fact his kingdom is more determined to push their evil and wicked agenda much more than the children of LIGHT are their's, which is very sad to say. Apart from Christ's victory over sin, death, and Satan, there would be no victory for us~Christ secured this for us. When Jesus comes again~shall he find faith on the earth he once asked his disciples:
Quote from: JESUS CHRIST
Luke 18:7,8~"And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?"
Very few will he find when he comes again, that is strong faith~oh, there will children of God in the earth, but very weak and almost at a point of being overcome of the beast. (you do know who the beast is do you not?)
Quote from: 3 Resurrections Reply #114 on: Yesterday at 14:48:11
But what could be expected if that wicked generation was going to have a seven-fold increase in demonic possession before it had ended? Christ promised that this was going to happen, back in Matthew 12:43-45 in the "last state" of that wicked generation which had rejected His personal ministry among them.
Just a word or two more, then I'm stopping for now since I have grandchildren that drove it late last night and some more coming in today. I was asleep when they got here, Sherry was up waiting on them, so Ill see them shortly.
3 Resurrection~You got some of JRC beliefs where he taught the generation of Jews living when Christ was here was the most wicked generation of men that ever lived at one time in this world~using the phrase WICKED GENERATION as used by Christ several times in the gospel.
Quote
But what could be expected if that wicked generation was going to have a seven-fold increase in demonic possession before it had ended?
Every time in the gospel where evil, wicked generation is used WITHOUT an exception it refers to the generation of VIPERS, or the children of the devil....WITHOUT EXCEPTION this is true. THIS generation is used several times and each time it has reference to the WICKED AND EVIL generation of little snakes! Never does it has reference to the common use of the word generation, God's word is its own dictionary and will define it use of words for us. This is a post within itself that we might have to do, to establish of position on this. As a matter of truth~that then living generation of folks well may be the most righteous generation of men on the face of the earth at one given time when you consider: the apostles, Jogn the Baptist, and thousands of others we read about in the gospels and the book of Acts~pretty sure the like the world has never seen.
::eatingpopcorn: ::reading:: ::amen!::
RB, I'm going to concentrate on just one verse you brought up in your last comment, simply because it exemplifies how polar opposite we are in our worldviews. Yours is a pessimistic, sour perspective on the prospects of God's kingdom in this world, which you think is going to continually go downhill until the end when it will implode. I prefer to rely on Christ's examples of the leaven in the bread dough, the mustard seed, the rock cut without hands growing into a mountain that fills the world, and the endless increase of Christ's government and peace.
We couldn't be more different in our outlook.
You quoted (and misinterpreted) Christ's rhetorical question in Luke 18:8. "...When the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" You would have this applying to the entire world at the close of fallen man's history. It doesn't. It applied specifically to "THE EARTH" (tes ges), which referred to the LAND OF ISRAEL ALONE, and to only a certain single generation which Jesus called "a wicked and perverse generation". If Christ had meant the entire world would be without faith, He would have used the word "oikoumene", not "tes ges". But since you reject using the original languages to assist with your interpretations of God's Word, you are crippled in your understanding of this text.
Don't you remember the prophets speaking about how the number of the children of Israel would be like the sand of the sea, yet only a remnant would be saved? Christ's limit of only a FEW having faith in the earth meant that His own people who had rejected His earthly ministry would comparatively speaking have only a few at that time, who would accept Him for who He was - the Son of God. This is the "narrow gate" of only THAT "wicked and perverse generation" in Christ's days. It is NOT a limit put on only a few over the entire course of history who would be children of faith.
You and I have spoken about this before when I told you that the parable of the "wheat and tares" harvest was NOT a majority of TARES being harvested. The majority of the harvest was good WHEAT which was to be gathered into the "barn". The MAJORITY of humanity will become children of God - with only a FEW rejected "tares" mixed among them.
Also, you would have the word "generation" (genos) mean the same thing as the word "generation" (genea). There is also the "generation" (gennemata) of vipers", which means "offspring".
Though the KJV translates all three of these words by the same name of "generation", they are not the same thing, as Scofield deliberately lied about this very point in his inserted Bible notes. "THIS wicked and perverse generation" was the single generation of Jewish people living in those days who betrayed and murdered Christ. Specifically, Christ defines what "THIS generation" is when He foretold the events preceding His return in Luke 17:25, "But first he must suffer many things, and be rejected by THIS GENERATION." It was a first-century generation which directly caused Christ's earthly sufferings, and who delivered Him up to be crucified.
It was "THIS GENERATION" which would have "the sign of the prophet Jonas" given to them firsthand, which they would then reject. That does not apply to every generation of all time.
You would like for the words "THIS WICKED AND PERVERSE GENERATION' (which experienced the entire Satanic realm plaguing them in their "last state") to be an all-time application to every time period until the end of the world as we know it.
It isn't. That label of "THIS GENERATION" applied specifically to the single generation of wicked and perverse Jews who received the sign of the prophet Jonas and then rejected Jesus as being their prophesied Messiah. It was THAT GENERATION who rejected Him which received the "Days of Vengeance" poured out upon THEM. Indeed, they called down a blood curse on their own heads when they said, "His blood be on US AND OUR CHILDREN". God made good on that self-imposed curse to those parents and their children. But He did not extend the "Days of Vengeance" on that "wicked and perverse generation" to every single generation of all time. That would have been an injustice, and God is not an unjust judge.
As I said, you and I are polar opposite in the way we regard the world in general. I prefer to adopt Christ's optimistic heart and mind about the predicted fulfillment of His plans for the growth of His kingdom in this world. He made good on His judgment of that "wicked and perverse generation" back in the first century, by using the now-extinct Satanic realm to punish them for rejecting Him. Since then, He is continuing to incrementally increase the size of His kingdom. Eventually, He will purify this world entirely of the remaining remnants of wicked humanity at the final judgment. There is more than just one Great White Throne judgment, though you refuse to acknowledge it.
4WD, the Revelation 12:12 verse is NOT a future prediction for us. It was a declaration and a warning to those John was directly speaking to, describing conditions that were presently occurring in their time.
Back in Revelation 1:19, Christ told John to write the things which he "had seen" (in the past), and "the things that are" (presently happening in those days), and the things which were "about to happen hereafter" in John's time (the near future for John's readers).
What happened in Revelation 12 was an already-fulfilled ascension of the man-child Christ to His Father's throne, and the already fulfilled casting out of Satan and his angels from heaven down to the earth and sea. As a result of those already-fulfilled happenings, John then issued a timely warning for the inhabitants of the earth and of the sea at that time. Satan was then among them, loosed in the world in great wrath for just a "short time" left to operate in the world.
This Revelation 12:12 text was clearly a then-present condition in John's days - NOT a future prospect for us. But I doubt you will ever figure this out. You are too deeply invested in a life-long belief that isn't going anywhere.
: 3 Resurrections Fri Jan 14, 2022 - 10:14:24
This Revelation 12:12 text was clearly a then-present condition in John's days - NOT a future prospect for us. But I doubt you will ever figure this out. You are too deeply invested in a life-long belief that isn't going anywhere.
It is you who are too deeply invested in a belief that isn't going anywhere. Discussing eschatology with a preterist is much like discussing the moon landings with one who is convinced that it was all fake narrative photographed and photoshopped on a Hollywood sound stage.
It makes no difference at all what biblical truth RB presents to you. You simply reject it out of hand. I don't necessarily blame you for than since I must admit that I do the same for everything you post relative to eschatology; and that because neither your basic premise nor the ending conclusion makes any sense at all. I am not so certain, as some here have presented, about when, where or by whom Preterism first raised its ugly head, but I suspect it was somewhat of an outgrowth of Post-millennialism when that view of eschatology first began to be a suspect interpretation of the last days. Just as Post-millennialism isn't going anywhere, so also Preterism isn't going anywhere.
You are right, 4WD, that Preterism is not going anywhere. We are here to stay, like it or not. Your generation (and mine) which was steeped in the fad of the Pre-mil-dispensational paradigm is passing away, just like the Israelites of old whose carcases dropped in the wilderness, so that their children could go in and inherit the promised land.
This generation of young people in America is growing up in general with a spiritual blank slate, which actually can ultimately be a good thing. God doesn't have to do as much mop-up operations of false teaching from the pulpit, since in general, these young people are not growing up in a church atmosphere. I want to live long enough to be the bridge for my grandchildren between what I was taught in my youth and what I know now from a deeper study of the Word of God. Times are going to get very tough for our kids and grandkids, and I want to be there to provide a voice of hope and optimism for them, based on the historical patterns of what I see God having done over the millennia.
: 3 Resurrections Fri Jan 14, 2022 - 10:05:04You and I have spoken about this before when I told you that the parable of the "wheat and tares" harvest was NOT a majority of TARES being harvested. The majority of the harvest was good WHEAT which was to be gathered into the "barn". The MAJORITY of humanity will become children of God - with only a FEW rejected "tares" mixed among them.
Very breifly I will say a word or two, then I will come back today and look at your post and address each and every point mainly for others to consider and help them in their faith, for I do not expect to convert you on any point on your new-found faith since we first met many years ago back in the mid to late eighties.
So you now believe
The MAJORITY of humanity will become children of God~ interesting ::pondering:: You did also say to 4WD:
"Times are going to get very tough for our kids and grandkids, and I want to be there to provide a voice of hope and optimism for them, based on the historical patterns of what I see God having done over the millennia."
Which one is it? The majority of this world becoming children of God, or
"Times are going to get very tough for our kids and grandkids"? Of course, the latter and I will provide scriptures to prove this to any reasonable person who has not been duped by the devil and his false apostles. I also will do (the Lord willing) a post on
"THIS" generation as used by Christ and his apostles.
You actually bought into JRC's theology much more than you realize~He and I was at war from day one on these very points which prompt me to write him a fifty-page rebuttal on THIS generation which he never attempted to answer, or disprove, not even on one or two points. I still have that and will post some of my points to you for you to answer. Btw, how about those verses above from Peter and Jude. Any thoughts?
What, RB, you are going to "help people in their faith" by telling them that the Devil and his angels are still around to plague them, when God told you when He was going to get rid of that entire Satanic realm long ago? Save me from such false "help". For some reason you think this world and the church can't function without having a Devil around. Weird that your doctrine is so tightly linked to that dead creature.
There is no contradiction between scripture teaching that the MAJORITY of mankind will become the children of God, and saying that our children and grandchildren are due for some tough times. These ideas are NOT mutually exclusive. Haven't you recognized God's usual pattern for growing His kingdom in scripture? It is BECAUSE of tough times that His kingdom grows in strength and numbers. This has been true in your own life, naturally speaking, I'm sure. Haven't you grown much more as a person because of hardships in your life? Same thing for the growth of the kingdom of God in this world.
You needn't veer off in another direction by devoting copious amounts of material to describe "THIS generation". It goes off track of this post's theme. Just insert a link to the couple of posts where you (and I) have already spent time listing the pertinent verses and offering comments on them.
As far as that person JRC, I have told you before that personally, I have never heard him deliver a single sermon on the book of Revelation. Just Daniel. And for a lot of that, I was not even in the meeting room, but walking the halls of the hotel, so I missed a lot of sermon content. I never had any personal conversations with him about anything eschatological, either. So how could I "buy into" something of JRC's that I never even heard? I DO remember your one and only sermon before we ever got a pastor. You were very thorough, but covered a lot of material that wasn't exactly related to the sermon theme. Sort of like you do even today ::smile::
As for the Jude and Peter references to the "Great Day of Judgment", that is nothing more and nothing less than referring to Malachi's "Great and dreadful Day of the Lord", which would "burn like an oven". That "Day" would be preceded by the appearance of John the Baptist as "Elijah". Who, of course, Christ identified as that "Elijah" which should come. This links that "Great and dreadful Day of the Lord", or simply "The Day" with John the Baptist's generation - not our future. The destruction of the Satanic realm was reserved for that particular "Day" - not our future.
: 3 Resurrections Sat Jan 15, 2022 - 09:16:28As far as that person JRC, I have told you before that personally, I have never heard him deliver a single sermon on the book of Revelation. Just Daniel.
I have known him for almost thirty 38 years I believe, and he still has not attempted his first sermon on Revelation. I can go to his site and see every sermon he has ever preached and so far, that book he avoids like a plague.
He treated Daniel as a history book, instead of a prophetic message for us today, just a Jesus applied it.
: JESUS CHRISTMatthew 24:15~"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)"
Daniel was not a history teach, but a prophet of God, much of which is
now being in the process of being fulfilled. I'm taking the day off to spend time with my older grandchildren in visiting us, they will be leaving Monday the Lord willing.
: 3 Resurrections on: Today at 09:16:28I DO remember your one and only sermon before we ever got a pastor. You were very thorough, but covered a lot of material that wasn't exactly related to the sermon theme. Sort of like you do even today ::smile::
You have a good memory I could not even begin to tell you. BUT, come on, I very seldom leave my subject. ::smile::
: 3 Resurrections Sat Jan 15, 2022 - 09:16:28For some reason you think this world and the church can't function without having a Devil around. Weird that your doctrine is so tightly linked to that dead creature.
Oh, it would function
much better. One day he will be totally destroyed with no access to the New Heaven and Earth. Knowledge and righteousness will cover that earth as the seas do now~Jesus will reign and the very elect with him with all of his enemies destroyed never to rise again world without end.
: 3 Resurrections Reply #126 on: Yesterday at 09:16:28 There is no contradiction between scripture teaching that the MAJORITY of mankind will become the children of God, and saying that our children and grandchildren are due for some tough times. These ideas are NOT mutually exclusive. Haven't you recognized God's usual pattern for growing His kingdom in scripture? It is BECAUSE of tough times that His kingdom grows in strength and numbers.
Oh, they are for sure exclusively. Every time SIN and false prophets arise in Israel, they suffered greatly and eventually become a servant to other nations and were taken captive by them~and eventually were destroyed and scattered by the Romans throughout this world with their temple destroyed never to rise again, never!
: THE HOLY GHOST2nd Timothy 3:1-4:4~This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was. But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."
Do not tell me that this was fulfilled before 70 A.D.~if so, then
where are the scriptures speaking of our last days before his coming and kingdom? They are not there, these scriptures are for us, just as such scriptures as
2nd Peter 2,3; Jude and a thousand others we could provide for others to consider knowing you have closed your eyes to the truth and have been deceived into believing a lie.
Yes, YOU closed them is very true, also the devil has
helped you to be more deceived even to a place of full security of having the truth.
: JESUS CHRISTMatthew 13:14-15,~"And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."
: JohnRevelation 20:10~"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever"
The Serpent deceiving the little serpents~BOTH are
poisonous~Satan and men's own sinful hearts.
: 3 Resurrections 3 Resurrections Reply #126 on: Yesterday at 09:16:28 You needn't veer off in another direction by devoting copious amounts of material to describe "THIS generation".
It was you that said:
: 3 Resurrections Reply #121 on: Fri Jan 14, 2022 - 10:05:04 That label of "THIS GENERATION" applied specifically to the single generation of wicked and perverse Jews who received the sign of the prophet Jonas and then rejected Jesus as being their prophesied Messiah. It was THAT GENERATION who rejected Him which received the "Days of Vengeance" poured out upon THEM. Indeed, they called down a blood curse on their own heads when they said, "His blood be on US AND OUR CHILDREN". God made good on that self-imposed curse to those parents and their children. But He did not extend the "Days of Vengeance" on that "wicked and perverse generation" to every single generation of all time. That would have been an injustice, and God is not an unjust judge.
so I may do a short post on it late
: 3 Resurrections Sat Jan 15, 2022 - 09:16:28
There is no contradiction between scripture teaching that the MAJORITY of mankind will become the children of God, and saying that our children and grandchildren are due for some tough times. These ideas are NOT mutually exclusive. Haven't you recognized God's usual pattern for growing His kingdom in scripture? It is BECAUSE of tough times that His kingdom grows in strength and numbers. This has been true in your own life, naturally speaking, I'm sure. Haven't you grown much more as a person because of hardships in your life? Same thing for the growth of the kingdom of God in this world.
The mistake you, and far too many other Christians, make is thinking that God's dealing with nations today, such as the United States or the world as a whole, is the same as was His dealing with Israel. It isn't. The kingdom of God, the kingdom of heaven, is a kingdom of individuals who have obeyed the gospel. God dealt with Israel on an individual level only occasionally. And that was almost always to facilitate His dealing with Israel as a nation. And that was to bring the gospel of Jesus Christ to the world. That has been accomplished. It is a major distinction between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. The Old Covenant dealt with Ethnic Israel as the nation of physical circumcision; however, the New Covenant deals with Spiritual Israel as a body of spiritual circumcision.
: 3 Resurrections Fri Jan 14, 2022 - 10:05:04You quoted (and misinterpreted) Christ's rhetorical question in Luke 18:8. "...When the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" You would have this applying to the entire world at the close of fallen man's history.
Well, being faithful and honest to the scriptures with a fear of God of corrupting them, why should I not take the words~
"on the earth", as referring to the whole world as we know it? Also, why should I not take
"When the Son of man cometh"~to mean his second and only coming. I would listen to anyone if they can prove to me I should listen to a sense in which I could consider this to mean any other meaning other than the whole world and his second coming,
if they would use SCRIPTURES to convince me, but will never consider looking at other versions or going to the Greek to force a meaning that is not taught in the scriptures.
: Paul2nd Corinthians 2:17~"For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ."
Say what you will to me how I'm crippled by rejecting others versions that for the most part came into the world around 130 years ago and thereafter~it will never move me to not live by every word of God that he has graciously given to the English speaking people of this world in Authorized Version (KJV) that our forefathers trusted in.
: 3 Resurrections Reply #121 on: Fri Jan 14, 2022 - 10:05:04 It applied specifically to "THE EARTH" (tes ges), which referred to the LAND OF ISRAEL ALONE, and to only a certain single generation which Jesus called "a wicked and perverse generation".
That sir is a totally corruption of God's word, given only to support your doctrine Preteristism. Jesus knew the different between
in Israel and in the world.
: JESUS CHRISTLuke 7:9~"When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel."
: JESUS CHRISTJohn 15:19~"If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
You would be wise to know that the scriptures carefully use words to teach us the truth on any given subject. I'll believe the scriptures, knowing the Lord knows the difference between the earth/world and the land of Israel. Why are you corrupting the scriptures to support your doctrine? Shame on you.
: 3 Resurrections Reply #121 on: Fri Jan 14, 2022 - 10:05:04 and to only a certain single generation which Jesus called "a wicked and perverse generation".
Later....RB
Hey 4WD
Everything in your reply #129 I heartily concur with. Not sure why you think it is opposite to what I've been writing. You spoke of the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. That is more or less why scripture often puts a distinction between the terms "the EARTH" and "the WORLD" (tes ges and oikoumene), or often between "the EARTH" and "the SEA" (of the pagan Gentile nations). To the Jews of the Old Covenant, "The EARTH" was what referred to "the LAND" - of ISRAEL. Meaning the promised LAND of Canaan.
As in Jeremiah 22:29, when God prophesied to the land of Judah itself, saying, "...O earth, earth, earth, hear the word of the Lord". There was no longer going to be a descendant of Coniah ruling on the throne in the land of Judah. And as in Joel 2:18-20 when the Lord spoke about having pity on His people, and being jealous for "His LAND". He said "Fear not, O LAND; be glad and rejoice: for the Lord will do great things". This was leading up to the prophecy when God would pour out His Spirit on His sons and daughters at Pentecost in the LAND of Israel. But those, as you say, were days when the expansion of God's kingdom was spreading beyond just the LAND of Israel into the New Covenant conditions that are presently in place throughout the entire WORLD.
This, I think, is a point of distinction between "EARTH" and "WORLD" that is lost on RB.
RB, if you think that koine Greek came into existence 130 years ago, I can't help you. The KJV translators themselves used this tool for their translation labors, which is one that anybody today is equally entitled to employ. English is not a sacred language that only the most holy use. If you are so opposed to the original languages, then I never want to hear you using the word "Selah" again. Or "Messiah". Or "Apollyon". Or "Maranatha". Or "Amen". Etc., etc.
I strongly reject your assessment that I am "corrupting" the Word of God. When Christ said in Matthew 12:45 that it was "THIS wicked generation" whose "last state" would become worse than its "first state" when He was among them casting out devils, this specifically pinpoints the words "THIS wicked generation" to the generation He had been living in during the time of His earthly ministry.
It was called "THIS generation" in Luke 17:25 which directly caused Christ's sufferings and then rejected Him. "But first must he" (the Son of Man) "suffer many things, and be rejected of THIS generation." Christ "came unto His own, and His own received Him not" (John 1:11). That was a single generation of Jews spoken about which rejected the day of their visitation by their own prophesied Messiah, and who became His "betrayers and murderers" as Stephen accused them.
You say if one gives you scripture, that you would consider another meaning than Christ having "a second and ONLY coming". I have done so before, and you reject this plain sense of Matthew 24:21-30. There is clearly another third coming of Christ taught in that text, taking place after Christ's second coming which is described in that text. But the logic of this is lost on you when I compare scripture with scripture.
That Matthew 24:21-30 text teaches continuing tribulation periods occurring over history AFTER the "Great Tribulation". Those continuing tribulation periods were never going to be able to duplicate that former "Great Tribulation" period. Yet Christ returns "IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation of those days", in power and great glory. How can regular periods of tribulation continue happening over the span of history AFTER the Great Tribulation and Christ's second coming at that time, without another third coming of Christ to resurrect the rest of His saints and stage a final judgment for them also? After all, "we must ALL appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." (2 Cor. 5:10). That includes you and me as well.
But regardless of when this second and third coming happen on the timeline, this Matthew 24:21-30 text compared with 2 Cor. 5:10 teaches that there must be more than ONLY a second coming of Christ.
: 3 Resurrections Sun Jan 16, 2022 - 16:36:04
Hey 4WD
Everything in your reply #129 I heartily concur with. Not sure why you think it is opposite to what I've been writing.
We have no scripture telling us that God is dealing with any particular nation today as a nation. Israel was essentially a theocracy. There are no such nations today or since Israel. There is no scriptural indication that God either blesses or punishes nations today based upon national directions.
EXACTLY RIGHT, 4WD. We don't have that at present.
As Paul said in Romans 11:32, "For God hath concluded ALL in unbelief, that He might have mercy on all", regardless of the nation from which our parentage comes or in which we reside. Under the New Covenant, these things became immaterial.
That should tell you that these prophecies regarding those particular "tribes of the EARTH" (of the land of Israel) were a judgment taking place to clear out all the Old Covenant leftovers hanging around: the tribes of Israel, the physical temple structure, the Levitical priesthood, the distinction between Jew and Gentile...all of it physically burned up or shattered back in the end of the first century. These things had already been abrogated with the "change in the law" over to the New Covenant at Christ's resurrection and ascension, but humanity somehow needs to see a dramatic physical demonstration of something before they get the message. Even then, some still don't get the point.
: 3 Resurrections Sun Jan 16, 2022 - 16:36:04RB, if you think that koine Greek came into existence 130 years ago, I can't help you. The KJV translators themselves used this tool for their translation labors, which is one that anybody today is equally entitled to employ. English is not a sacred language that only the most holy use.
I do not know when koine Greek came into existence, and really do not care, it serves me no purpose in knowing. I'm a Christian of the English speaking world and have faith in God according to the scriptures (Psalms 12, etc) that he has preserved for us a copy of His word in our own language, and over time he has convinced me more of this than when I began to believe this in the same movement your parents worshipped God in. You know the one I'm speaking of. Those people were not too deep in their theology but were very sincere and simple folks trusting in God.
: 3 Resurrections Reply #131 on: Yesterday at 16:36:04 If you are so opposed to the original languages, then I never want to hear you using the word "Selah" again. Or "Messiah". Or "Apollyon". Or "Maranatha". Or "Amen". Etc., etc.
It is not difficult to know the meanings of certain words we find in our English Bibles, generally even the text will guide you into the meaning of certain words by reading the context~no problem, and I'm a very simple man, so If I can, most others can as well.
: 3 Resurrections Reply #131 on: Yesterday at 16:36:04I strongly reject your assessment that I am "corrupting" the Word of God. When Christ said in Matthew 12:45 that it was "THIS wicked generation" whose "last state" would become worse than its "first state" when He was among them casting out devils, this specifically pinpoints the words "THIS wicked generation" to the generation He had been living in during the time of His earthly ministry.
It was called "THIS generation" in Luke 17:25 which directly caused Christ's sufferings and then rejected Him. "But first must he" (the Son of Man) "suffer many things, and be rejected of THIS generation." Christ "came unto His own, and His own received Him not" (John 1:11). That was a single generation of Jews spoken about which rejected the day of their visitation by their own prophesied Messiah, and who became His "betrayers and murderers" as Stephen accused them.
You say if one gives you scripture, that you would consider another meaning than Christ having "a second and ONLY coming". I have done so before, and you reject this plain sense of Matthew 24:21-30. There is clearly another third coming of Christ taught in that text, taking place after Christ's second coming which is described in that text. But the logic of this is lost on you when I compare scripture with scripture.
That Matthew 24:21-30 text teaches continuing tribulation periods occurring over history AFTER the "Great Tribulation". Those continuing tribulation periods were never going to be able to duplicate that former "Great Tribulation" period. Yet Christ returns "IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation of those days", in power and great glory. How can regular periods of tribulation continue happening over the span of history AFTER the Great Tribulation and Christ's second coming at that time, without another third coming of Christ to resurrect the rest of His saints and stage a final judgment for them also? After all, "we must ALL appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." (2 Cor. 5:10). That includes you and me as well.
But regardless of when this second and third coming happen on the timeline, this Matthew 24:21-30 text compared with 2 Cor. 5:10 teaches that there must be more than ONLY a second coming of Christ.
Well, you are corrupting the scriptures, and by God's help I'm going to prove it with some posts forthcoming.
Trying to decide my best approach to doing this. Obviously,
This generation; and Christ's second coming; and a few more pertinent related doctrines in the scriptures need to be revisited carefully.
I'm going to do it here since Rob is not even around to contribute to the thread he started, and besides, it is all related when it comes to Eschatology.
I'll have more time later in the afternoon when the grandchildren leave. RB
3 Res,
There is no "change in the law". "...the law IS holy..." (Rom 7:12), ..."the law IS good" (Rom 7:16; 1 Tim 1:8)
4WD, I am simply quoting from Hebrews 7:12. "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." This was referring to the change from the Levitical priesthood over to the priesthood according to the order of Melchizedek. This was the change from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant in Christ's blood.
RB, if your comfort zone is the KJV, God can bless this to your understanding. If others can use the tools of lexicons and Greek grammar to come to a better understanding of what they are reading, God can bless this also. My point was that if you are using the few simple Greek and Hebrew words that you do recognize, then you can hardly criticize someone else for digging further into the same Greek and Hebrew, if God leads them to do so. This is not to corrupt the Word of God, anymore than your reading of those few simple Greek and Hebrew words would corrupt you.
God can even use pictures of religious art to open the eyes of a person's understanding. I just watched the history-based "Amistad" movie again last night. So moving. This was a group of desperate slaves who mutinied on the slave ship and slew those holding them captive. Unfortunately, they were again taken captive and jailed. While awaiting trial, a man gave them an illustrated Bible. Without knowing a single word of the script in front of him, the pictures alone told this jailed slave the gospel message from beginning to end, and opened his heart to its truth. So God can use any means whatever that He chooses to bring someone to faith.
If you address anything at all that I have written, I wish you would concentrate first on the two text comparisons I have made: Revelation 12:12 compared with Revelation 20:3 and 7, proving a past millennium as of Revelation's writing, and also Matthew 24:21-30 compared to 2 Corinthians 5:10, proving a third coming of Christ.
: 3 Resurrections Mon Jan 17, 2022 - 10:43:21RB, if your comfort zone is the KJV, God can bless this to your understanding. If others can use the tools of lexicons and Greek grammar to come to a better understanding of what they are reading, God can bless this also. My point was that if you are using the few simple Greek and Hebrew words that you do recognize, then you can hardly criticize someone else for digging further into the same Greek and Hebrew, if God leads them to do so. This is not to corrupt the Word of God, anymore than your reading of those few simple Greek and Hebrew words would corrupt you.
Now, this is a different thing from taking whole verses and changing the total meaning of what God is saying, which we know he is saying by knowing the scriptures overall. I have NO PROBLEM with folk explaining meanings of WORDS from another language~or even how they form their phrase of words to get to the same point of understanding. Example: I would say.... "the cow jumped over the fence~yet some Germans (which I'm about 39%)...would say... "Over the fence, the cow jumped". Same thing, no damage to the true meaning of what the cow actually did. I do have a major problem of corruption God's word and I could go into details, many of which you have heard in the past from JRC, and maybe even myself here. Enough now on this point. maybe later since Rella started a thread that I will address when I have time.
: 3 Resurrections on: Yesterday at 10:43:21If you address anything at all that I have written, I wish you would concentrate first on the two text comparisons I have made: Revelation 12:12 compared with Revelation 20:3 and 7, proving a past millennium as of Revelation's writing, and also Matthew 24:21-30 compared to 2 Corinthians 5:10, proving a third coming of Christ.
Brother, I'll be happy to do so. I have looked at them already and did not see what you say is there, but let me address only these and then talk.
I'm very tired~We've had grandchildren visiting for the past three days~ older ones and younger ones and it leaves you exhausted even though Sherry swears she did most of the work. ::smile:: (she did) They took me out of my comfort zone that I do not like folks doing not even them.
: 3 Resurrections Mon Jan 17, 2022 - 10:43:21If you address anything at all that I have written, I wish you would concentrate first on the two text comparisons I have made: Revelation 12:12 compared with Revelation 20:3 and 7, proving a past millennium as of Revelation's writing
Revelation 12:12~"Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."
Revealtion 20:3 and verse 7~"And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season..........And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,"
I sightly covered some of this above:
: RB Reply #107 on: Thu Jan 13, 2022 - 05:06:16 You believe Satan was loose in Revelation 12~that is not the TIME of him being loose, but when he was cast out of heaven~ OR/and, having no more to accuse the very elect.
Revelation 12:9~ "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the devil and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."
When Christ sent the 70 (the number 70 was representing the fullness or totality of the church) out to witness two by two, and when they returned He said He saw Satan as lightning fall from heaven (Luke 10:18), this is what Revelation 12 is symbolizing. The accuser is cast out! There is no longer a fear of death as the law does not condemn us, and he no longer has any power to accuse the Church. Ultimately through Christ's death and resurrection, Satan was cast out and the Lord's army gained the Victory. They went forth Conquering and to conquer, Revelation 6:1) because Christ went forth Conquering and to Conquer and they were risen in Him. They go forth in battle, and overcome not of themselves, but by the blood of Christ. Satan and all devils are subject to them through Christ's by the power of the cross.
Christ gave us the power to overcome Satan by the Cross alone, and this assured that nothing Satan could do could harm us. He can Kill us, have us stoned to death, or fed to the Lions, but ultimately, he has lost and has no power in the Kingdom of God because his accusations mean nothing because of the work of Christ. He cannot harm us in any way, and certainly not by false Gospels:
From the time he was cast out, until the time he is actually loose
is the time of the 1000 yrs which is the totality of the NT church age. 1000 years is not to be taken literally, no more than Satan who is a spirit being bound with a chain, is to be taken literally, etc.
Once cast out of heaven~the JOYFUL SOUND goes forth unto all nations:
Revelation 12:10~"And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."
You are guilty of making those two events as one and they are not one event but two separate events separated by the church kingdom being built and Christ's enemies being made his footstool~the losing of Satan comes just before the second coming of Christ which will be a visible coming with every eye seeing him with his holy army behind coming to destroy and take full possession of what truly belongs to Christ and his people.
What more can the devil have to accuse the elect? NOTHING. Christ paid in full for their sins by being made sin for them and suffering death for those sins. Yes, once sins were paid for the devil knew he had but a short time, yet in Revelation 20 it is even shorter!
Revelation 20:3 and verse 7~"And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season..........And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,"
Here in Revelation 20 Satan is cast into the bottomless pit that he should not deceive the nations no more, or, to the degree he did in the OT, till Christ brings all of his elect into the fold out of all nations~per 2nd Peter 3:9, etc.
Once the church fold is completed, then he will be loose for a little season to deceive as he did before the coming of Christ. How long that little season is hidden from us, for in such an hour, the Son of Man will come when most of the world is sleeping and not prepared. All these truths are clearly taught in gospels and church epistles which I purposely withheld so I could complete this in one post.
On the heel of Matthew 24 is Matthew 25 which IS part of the same discourse teaching exactly what I'm saying. So many labors to separate Matthew 24
from Matthew 25, but Christ is addressing the very same doctrine of the latter days of this world and his second coming to gather together his elect from the four winds of heaven.
RB, I suppose you are trying to make a difference between Satan's "short time" in Revelation 12:12 and his "little season" in Revelation 20:3. They are both speaking of the same event when Satan was released from his millennial chain, which was the time when he was cast down to earth out of heaven for that "short time". That casting out of heaven was at Christ's resurrection-day ascension. This took place not long before John was writing Revelation (which composition of Revelation was no later than early AD 60, just before the AD 60 Laodicean earthquake).
Satan was not loosed for a brief period of time on two occasions - only one occasion. And a "little season" is scripturally going to be composed of less time than a "long season", which Joshua 24:7 tells you was 40 years of wilderness wanderings for the Israelites, when they "dwelt in the wilderness a LONG season".
Satan's "short time" / "little season" of freedom to deceive the nations lasted for a time period less than 40 years, once his millennial chain was taken off at Christ's ascension in AD 33. When scripture itself defines for you how long a "little season" is, it is best to pay attention to it. Especially when Romans 16:20 informed the believers around AD 60 that God was going to crush Satan under their feet "shortly". That encouraging, timely promise of Satan's approaching death meant something hopeful to the persecuted believers of those days, even though it carries little significance to you.
: 3 Resurrections Tue Jan 18, 2022 - 17:41:14RB, I suppose you are trying to make a difference between Satan's "short time" in Revelation 12:12 and his "little season" in Revelation 20:3. They are both speaking of the same event when Satan was released from his millennial chain, which was the time when he was cast down to earth out of heaven for that "short time". That casting out of heaven was at Christ's resurrection-day ascension.
I was already planning to add to Revelation 12/20 this morning, knowing I did not say enough.
A brief Timeline would help.The
casting out of Satan in Revelation 12 and the
blinding of Satan happened within a fifty-day period~from Christ's resurrection to Pentecost when the Church was empowered from on high for the purpose of evangelizing the nations of this world according to
Matthew 28:19,20; Mark 16:15,16; and Acts 1:9~which reads:
: JESUS CHRIST"But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."
Earth is
the same as the world, in spite of what you say otherwise when you said:
: 3 Resurrections on: Fri Jan 14, 2022 - 10:05:04You quoted (and misinterpreted) Christ's rhetorical question in Luke 18:8. "...When the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" You would have this applying to the entire world at the close of fallen man's history. It doesn't. It applied specifically to "THE EARTH" (tes ges), which referred to the LAND OF ISRAEL ALONE, and to only a certain single generation which Jesus called "a wicked and perverse generation". If Christ had meant the entire world would be without faith, He would have used the word "oikoumene", not "tes ges". But since you reject using the original languages to assist with your interpretations of God's Word, you are crippled in your understanding of this text.
The red highlights are mine to show you your position is not according to the scriptures, but you must wrest them to make them fit your damnable doctrine of Preterism. Back to the Timeline of Revelation 12/20.
Revelation 12 when Satan was cast out and the Salvation of God is ordained of God to go forth unto all nations~Satan did come down having great wrath for he knew his time was short to do his evil deeds. What did he truly know? He knew that he was approaching the LAST DAYS for the times of Christ is the last days of this earth with no more dispensations to follow
these times.
Acts 2:17~ And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Last days here meaning the
TIMES OF CHRIST" and his kingdom on earth are the last days with NONE to follow.
1st John 2:18~ "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time."
No more TIMES following the last time in Biblical prophecy. At the end of THIS TIME the beast (antichrist kingdoms of this world under the king from the bottomless pit) shall make war with God and his saints to make one final effort to destroy the righteous from off the earth once and for all~but their mission will be their destruction!
The short time of Revelation 12 is the LAST DAY of this world with NO MORE dispensations to follow.
Again, there are LATTER DAYS of the last day which the scriptures speak much concerning. 2nd Timothy 3:1-4:5; 2nd Peter 3:3; 1st Timothy 4:1, and so many more.
The blinding of Satan occurred when the Church was empowered on Pentecost, while the kingdom of God/heaven was being established throughout this world. The blinding was a restrain placed on the devil by God in order for the gospel to go forth unto all nations of the earth. To what degree Satan understood God's plan no one will ever know fully, yet he WAS A DECEIVED spirit in chains of darkness reserved unto the judgment of the great day of God's wrath~so, we will never know, yet he had some knowledge being a powerful created spirit that he is.
Once the elect comes into the fold overall speaking, Satan will be loose upon the world of God-haters and despisers of those that are good. This is the little season we see and read so much of in Matthew 24, 25; Mark 13; Luke 21; 2nd Thessalonians 2; Daniel and Revelation. Following this little season is the Great White Throne Judgment, and then on into the New heaven and earth, The kingdom of God~where God reigns overall world without end.
RB, there is zero scripture that tells you Satan was being bound with a millennial chain at Pentecost. On the contrary, the Holy Spirit was being poured out upon all God's sons and daughters in those days so that they could be equipped to do battle with Satan who was then LOOSED for a "short time", as John said was then happening in Revelation 12:12.
What do you think Ephesians' defensive armor of God was for in those days? The believers were "wrestling" with spiritual wickedness in high places - a LOOSED Satan, who was waging war in great anger with the saints (all those "fiery darts" being thrown at them by Satan). This was NOT a bound Satan being described. You cannot possibly say that Satan "walking about as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour" was describing a BOUND Satan at that time. That's impossible.
Neither could Satan's snares which were taking people captive "at his will" at that time be describing a BOUND Satan. Satan was freely operating on a broad spectrum in those days after Pentecost. Evil men and seducers in those days were getting into a worse and worse condition - deceiving others, and being deceived themselves. You would like to yank this out of its first-century context and say that it exclusively applies to today, but that's wrong. Even Paul's complete evangelistic coverage of all of Asia had soon disintegrated in those days into "all they which are in Asia be turned away from me", as Paul told Timothy in 2 Timothy 1:15.
I again strongly reject your assumption that I am teaching a "damnable doctrine" by noticing scripture's distinction between "the EARTH" (tes ges - usually the land of Israel) and "all the WORLD" (holes oikoumenes - the entire habitable world). The KJV translators did you no favor by their ignoring this difference between these two Greek words. This distinction between Israel and the Gentile lands (often referred to as "the Sea" as well as "the World") is all throughout the scriptures, in reference to the Israelites being identified with the promised LAND. When Christ said there would be "great distress in THE LAND, and wrath upon THIS PEOPLE" in Luke 21:23, He was referring specifically to the LAND of ISRAEL or JUDEA, and the Israelite people living there who would receive God's "Days of Vengeance". God has not extended those "Days of Vengeance" into several millennia of ongoing vengeance on the entire world for betraying and murdering His Son. That would make Him unjust.
You wrote of the "last days" being the times of Christ when His Spirit would be poured out on all flesh. We know Peter applied Joel's "last days" prophecy to the very time when the Pentecost period had begun, with men and women speaking in tongues about the wonderful works of God ("This is that which was spoken of by the prophet Joel..." - Acts 2:16). Those special miraculous "sign gifts" were given to a particular generation (the first-century one) so that this generation who, in spite of those miraculous signs would NOT HEAR, would then be condemned for not giving heed to those speaking in the tongues of other nations.
This miraculous "sign gift" of tongues passed away at the same time as that "wicked generation" passed away who did not give heed to this miraculous sign. That means that particular set of "last days" also passed away with that "wicked generation".
Scripture progresses in time from Pentecost and "the last days" in Acts 2:17 into "the last HOUR" in 1 John 2:18. Then we have Peter in no uncertain terms announcing that "the end of all things is AT HAND" in 1 Peter 4:7.
You just don't know how to tell time, RB. That's your problem. Scripture is very clear on this. And you have a REAL problem with reading verb tenses correctly in English, even in the KJV. If scripture announces that something is "NOW" going on at the time it is written, then you are not at liberty to kidnap that statement and transfer its fulfillment to a time of your choosing.
: 3 Resurrections Wed Jan 19, 2022 - 10:43:19You just don't know how to tell time, RB. That's your problem. Scripture is very clear on this. And you have a REAL problem with reading verb tenses correctly in English, even in the KJV. If scripture announces that something is "NOW" going on at the time it is written, then you are not at liberty to kidnap that statement and transfer its fulfillment to a time of your choosing.
Listen at the worm calling the snail slimy! I need to be brief (well as brief as possible, too long for most I'm sure, but not for you~this will be my last one of this point, so I'll make sure I cover my bases with you) so I can answer your Revelation 20 question~you make it difficult for me to get there, but I must just as Paul heading to Jerusalem...I'm coming in spite of the opposition from you. ::smile::
It would be nice if you heeded your own words.
: Paul to 3 Resurrections Romans 2:19-24~"And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law. Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written."
: 3 Resurrections Reply #142 on: Yesterday at 10:43:19RB, there is zero scripture that tells you Satan was being bound with a millennial chain at Pentecost.
You wish! It is hard to prove this in a few words to bear with me.
Revelation 20:2~ "and He laid hold on the Dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil and Satan, and bound him a thousand years".
Because of preconceived ideas, this is the verse where some Theologians become somewhat confused. Many make the assertion that this hasn't occurred as yet. They hypothesize that this will take place sometime during Christ's second coming. And
ironically, in the midst of all the symbolic language here, they take exception to this thousand years being understood
any other way but a literal length of time. Nevertheless, when we practice sound biblical hermeneutics, it becomes clear from the scriptures that Satan was bound
by the victory of Christ on the cross. Teachings you reject. Satan bounding is to be understood to mean
restraining HIM. He had to be bound so that Christ could build His Church by going into a domain where Satan has ruled from the beginning of time, so Christ's gospel could forth triumphantly releasing those whom Satan had held captive since the beginning of time. Satan is the great deceiver of the world and he held the people in bondage to him so that they were his slaves. We can get a much better understanding of this truth by looking "carefully" at Matthew chapter 12, where the Pharisees are claiming that Jesus is casting out devils by the power of Satan. And Jesus asks them, "how can Satan fight himself? A Kingdom divided against itself cannot stand". Christ says that if He casts out Devils by the Spirit of God, then the Kingdom of God has come unto them! Of course, we know He did cast them out by the Spirit of God. Therefore, it is likewise
unquestionably true that the Kingdom of God had come unto them in the person of the King himself! And that is a very telling and unmistakable truth not subject to private interpretation, and which shouldn't be taken lightly, nor trampled upon. The Kingdom of God "Had" Come to Israel by the King himself and his forerunner, John the Baptist. And Christ doesn't stop there, He goes on to make sure we all know exactly what He is talking about, by then giving us this most revealing parable:
: JESUS CHRISTMatthew 12:29~"How can one enter into a strong man's house and spoil his goods, except he first Bind the strong man and then he will spoil his house."
When we study this parable honestly, by the Grace of God we must assuredly come to the truth of it. The Lord Jesus Christ came to spoil, or Plunder (Take by conquest the possessions from) Satan's house. And those possesions were you, I, and every other person who was unregenerate. We were those held strongly in captivity in
this house of bondage. But in order to take Satan's goods, first, Christ had to
"bind him." Look again carefully at the parable itself, and ask yourself honestly these questions:
#1. Who is the Strong man?
#2. What is his house?
#3. Who is it that comes to bind him?
#4. What are the possessions in the strong man's house that he wants to Spoil (take by conquest)?
#5. What "MUST" be done first, before that can happen?
#6.
WHEN did this take place? When you have answered those questions nobly, it's an absolute! There can be no other rational conclusion but that #1, Satan is the strong man. #2, His house is the adversarial principality. #3, Christ is the one who came to bind him and take the possessions or prisoners in his principality, #4, the Church were those possesions being held captive or in bondage by Satan, and #5, Christ is he who had to First, bind Satan! #6. This took place at the death and resurrection of Christ. God highly exalting Jesus as a victorious King bringing all his enemies under his feet~ his army of believers going forth conquering its foes in the regions where they served other gods.
If indeed Christ had cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then obviously it was the power of God manifest in Him, and thus unambiguously demonstrated that He was the prophesied Messiah, the Son of David who was to come and establish that Kingdom. The same Son of David of whom the multitude spoke in the first instance. It was indeed for this reason the Pharisees had accused Christ of having a devil. Consider wisely and in context.
Matthew 12:22-24~"Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the Son of David? But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils."
But indeed Christ had cast out devils by the Spirit of God and that meant that the Messiah, the Son of David had been manifest, and His Kingdom had come unto them. It is in this "context" that Christ speaks about how He must first bind Satan. When Christ cast Satan out of individuals, He was 'signifying' by this that the Kingdom of God had come (Matthew 12:28). The kingdom of God was in their mist and they perceived it not (Luke 17:21) by Christ coming to dwell where Satan once was, it's not an earthly kingdom. And the Spoiling of Satan's Kingdom or principality is the principle of this parable. His goods, (The Spoil) are all of the disciples, and all of us who were unsaved (in captivity to Satan) and deceived of Satan, who are now set free in Christ. This parable is a clear picture that God gives us to illustrate Christ came to plunder the house of Satan and set free those who sat in the darkness thereof. And God tells us,
first Christ had to bind the strong man, and only then could He spoil his house. This blinding did not make Satan inactive, but
limited his power . This is not incidental or insignificant language.
Scripture must be defined by scripture, not by Theologians. When we do that,
it is clear the binding of Satan took place at the cross, or the death and resurrection of Christ.
Again in Mark chapter 3. The Lord Jesus has the blasphemous accusation brought against Him that He was working through Satan. Christ asks them, "how can He battle against the Kingdom of Satan, if He is of the Kingdom of Satan? A House divided against itself cannot stand! And He declares:
Mark 3:26~"And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except He FIRST Bind the strong man; and then He will spoil his House."
These are God's parables and God puts parables in His Word not to be "ignored", but to be considered and discerned. Some people close their eyes and ears to the truth because of their Church tradition, OR, their newfound doctrine that they believe cannot be wrong~ but this is unrighteousness of the highest order. God says, "hear His parable!" Christ is the one who has come to conquer this strong man's (Satan's) kingdom, and God says, in order for Him to spoil Satan's house,
Satan first had to be bound~ meaning, his power LIMITED.
Indeed, as our Lord says, "if He cast out Satan by the power of God, then the Kingdom of God had come upon them." Not 2000 years later, but with Christ! The Kingdom had come, and the captivity was being set free, and there was Peace being made with God by those whom Christ delivered.
This isn't speculation, it's clearly delineated in the pages of Scripture. Preterism and doctrines like Premillennialism are in effect saying, "wrong God, You claim that Satan was even destroyed along with his angels just a few years later in 70. A.D. Premillennialism thinks the Kingdom of God has not come yet, for Christ has not bound Satan yet, the captivity has not been freed, and Christ has not yet brought Peace to the earth, nor established righteousness". But according to these scriptures Christ has bound Satan, and He has taken a spoil from his house, and He has established His Kingdom in "His" righteousness.
Luke 11:20-23~"But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the Kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, He TAKETH from him all his armor wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils."
Satan is the Strong man in this parable. Stronger than all of us so that he held us firmly in captivity to serve him in his kingdom of drakness. And you can be sure, he keeps his palace! No one can set themselves free from his strong grip. But when one stronger than him (Christ) comes and overcomes him, He takes away Satan's armor, making him defenseless so that he is unable to stop Christ's onslaught. Thus Christ conquers and divides Satan's spoil. He is unable to defend himself and prevent the Church from being built on those spoiled from the world. This is what these parables are teaching. Likewise, the Angel of Revelation chapter 20 had came with a Great chain to symbolize this is to hold this "strong" adversarial spirit. And as these scriptures clearly show, before this Strong one's house could be spoiled, he "First" had to be bound by Christ.
While Satan is bound, the Holy Temple is being built and the true gospel is going forth to the nations that the called of these nations are Saved. Satan is without defense (as per parable) being
restrained from being able to (with his deceiving these nations) prevent people from receiving truth and becoming truly Saved. In other words, while he is bound,
the Lord's Church will be built with the spoils of Satan's house. Iniquity is held down until all who are to be sealed are sealed (Saved). And when the 1000 years are over and the kingdom prepared to be delivered up to God, Satan will then be allowed loose from his binding (by he who has the key) to once again go forth deceiving the world. This will bring Great Tribulation to the camp of the Saints (Saints are believers) as the Churches will then be overrun and the people therein brought into captivity to Satan. There will be a great falling away or divorcing (apostasy) from God in the Church at this time. (2nd Thess. 2) It will become so wicked, that if God didn't shorten those days and return in final judgment, there would be no flesh saved (practically speaking) . I.e., with true biblically knowledge of its doctrines...we are almost there now. But that will never happen totally, as scripture says God will shorten the days (for the sake of the Chosen). Those who will endure in this time of Great Tribulation (the faithful, those who keep God's word over man's) will be Saved with true understanding of the word of God overall speaking. They shall be changed instantly, without death, into their new spiritual bodies at Christ's coming where every eye shall see him.
The point being made is, the Church is Saved by being freed from the house of Satan by the work of Christ at the cross to bind Satan. I don't know why anyone would consider it strange to hear that Satan was bound at the cross. The New Testament bears abundant testimony to the fact that Satan is a defeated foe. Colossians 2:15 says that Jesus Spoiled principalities and Powers and made a show of them openly triumphing over them in it. Keep in mind what Jesus said in Mark, that He first had to bind the strong man before He can spoil his house. Ephesians 4:8 tells us very plainly Christ led captivity captive and gave gifts to men. The captivity is the power of Satan to hold us in his Prison, and the gift Christ gave is Salvation! But, He first had to lead the captivity "Captive," Then He could give the gifts to men. You see, these verses are glossed over (or worse) by so many people. The question is, does it really mean that Satan had to be bound in order for Christ to spoil his house, when it says it? What was the captivity that Christ had to lead captive in order to give gifts to men? No need for vague speculation, the scriptures are clear about it.
Scripture indicates that being unsaved is as being in a prison or in captivity, with Satan as your Captor. No way you can get out because you are in bondage to sin. You serve sin. But Christ came to set this captivity free. He came to loose the prisoners, to spoil Satan's house. Remember Jesus said, If "I" shall make you free, you shall be free indeed? Israel didn't know what He was talking about! They retorted, "they were never in bondage and were born free (-John 8:33)". But Jesus was talking about a different captivity, a different house of Bondage. A captivity far greater than any political one and a prison house far more damnable than any earthly prison. He was talking about Israel being in captivity to Satan. And Jesus said, If I will make you free, ye shall be free indeed. But like so many today, they were thinking in worldly terms, or in earthly or carnal terms, and Jesus was speaking in the language of the Spiritual. They thought He was going to set up an earthly Kingdom, but Jesus came to set up a "far" superior Kingdom than a worldly one. They wanted Him to set Jacob free from captivity to the Romans, but He came to redeem Jacob in a way that would set them free forever, and would rule them in a kingdom which has no end. They thought apart from the Romans, they were already free, but Jesus knew that they were captives
in the House of Satan. He came down from Heaven to bind Satan and loose the captivity and give gifts to men. Doing that, this freedom would be greater than any worldly or (so called) literal freedom that they could imagine. When we learn the parable of the binding of the strong man, we see (By the Grace of God) exactly when, and more importantly why Satan was bound. This is also illustrated in the Prophesy of the messenger of the Covenant redeeming Israel, as fulfilled in Christ:
Jeremiah 31:11~"For the Lord hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was Stronger than He..
Jacob (Israel) was redeemed at the cross, and He who redeemed him was the Son of God from Heaven, Christ. Jacob was held in bondage by one who was stronger (remember the parable) and this of course was Satan. He was stronger than Israel and held them in bondage. The Redemption was made on the cross (it's not a future event) that Israel would be set free from the hand of Satan. And this is what the "great" chain to hold him signifies. Jeremiah 31 tells us all about this New Testament with the House of Israel that this Messenger confirmed or strengthened. Compare this diligently with the commentary on it in Hebrews chapters 8 and 9 (read it all carefully) and you will see that this is Christ, the messenger of the New Covenant or Testament with Israel. And the Israel in view is the New Testament Church! According to it's fulfillment spoken of in Hebrews, Christ accomplished this by the cross.
Look at 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2, which speaks of the time when iniquity will be un-restrained or loosed after having been restrained. Particularly take note of verses 6,7,8, and 9:
2nd Thessalonians 2:6-9~"And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only He who now restraineth will restrain, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming: Even him whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders.."
This Chapter of 2nd Thessalonians is dealing with the falling away from God, which precedes the Lord's second advent. And verse 6 tells us that there is something withholding or holding down this "Evil" power of Satan, but that there is a "specific time " appointed when this evil will be set loose and revealed. This sin (lawlessness or iniquity) of Satan was in the world even at the time of the writing of 2nd Thessalonians, and had been since the fall of man and yet God reveals here 'unambiguously' that it was being restrained to be revealed at a later (His) time.
This iniquity or transgression that is being held down is obviously the power of Satan to do great lawlessness in the Holy Temple and thus deceive the nations thereby. While it is being restrained the man of lawlessness cannot sit in God's Temple. The Church will continue to grow. This was iniquity of Satan bound at the cross so the Temple (Church) could be built. That's why these verses illustrate that it is being held down or restrained and declares a time it will be loosed. Naturally when it is let go, (unbound, unrestrained, released, whatever you want to call it), then this iniquity will abound (see Matt. 24:12) and there will be deceivings of false prophets, lying signs and wonders and miracles and great tribulation for true believers.
2nd Thessalonians 2:9~"even him whose coming is is after the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders."
When that iniquity that was held down is loosed, then false prophets, lying teachers and the lawless man, will come to deceive the nations with all Power and lying Signs and Wonders.
It is no mere coincidence that this mirrors Revelation chapter 20 where when Satan is loosed from being bound, he goes forth to "deceive" the nations of thefour quarters of the world. In other words,
it will be a universal deception of the peoples of the world by the loosing of this spirit of Satan. The iniquity of Satan (which was restrained) spoken of in Revelation 20, will be loosed to go forth deceiving the world with false gospels, and 2nd Thessalonians mirrors that message of Satan's deception in great power. This isn't God playing word games, it's talking about the same time, and the same loosing of Satan.
The context of 2nd Thessalonians 2 is of Christ's second coming and our gathering together to meet Him, but First it declares, these things had to happen. Apostasy, lawless man in the temple of God as if he was God, and the iniquity that was restrained be loosed.
It all points to the same conclusion. Namely, after Christ build's his Holy Temple, then Satan will be loosed to deceive. The question would now arise, Why? 2nd Thessalonians 2:10 answers this. It is because they received not the love of truth, that they might have Salvation, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. The same reason God has always brought judgment upon His congregation! It shouldn't come as any surprise to faithful students of the Bible. History repeats itself, just as Israel of old corrupted themselves, so the professing temple of the NT does the same, and will receive the same punishment.
There are those who are commonly called 'Carnal Christians' (which is really no Christian at all) in most every Church, and they tend to want the wide road, the smooth road, the worldly way. They are usually kept in check by the faithfulness of the majority, but as many in the Church depart from the faith, it is spoken of as their being seduced and deceived by false prophets and teachers. And verse 7 of 2nd Thessalonians 2 explains that something was holding this iniquity restrained that it couldn't take place then. It says "he that now letteth, will let, until he be taken out of the way." In the KJV this word "letteth" is an old English word which means restrain. . So once again we see the principle that something is holding Satan's iniquity down until a certain set time (spoken of here as, till one be taken out of the midst). This iniquity of Satan that will be revealed later, was restrained until Christ be taken out of the midst of the Churches. Because the Lord is the only one who could restrain it. The Lord is the only one in the midst of the Church or temple who restrains iniquity. When iniquity is loosed (Matthew 24:12, the great tribulation period) iniquity will again abound, and the Love of God shall grow cold. This is the apostasy, from God which 2nd Thessalonians speaks of.
There are two things that we see conclusively in this verse of Thessalonians:
The mystery of this iniquity was already at work then when this was written to the Thessalonians! i.e., The spirit of Satan was "still" active in the world~but though this iniquity was still active in the world then, it was declared by God to be being HELD DOWN, (restrained or bound) until a certain time when He that held it down should be taken out of the way (midst).
It is clear that He that holds the evil spirit of iniquity down can only be God Himself. Again, as in Revelation chapter 20, no one else has that kind of power to restrain that spirit, Satan! Who is it that has the keys to the bottomless pit and has bound Satan there, sealed, reserved for this time? It can only be God Himself! And only the Lord can remove this restraint of iniquity of Satan. And when the Temple which He came to build is come to the full with the gentiles that are now coming in, God will do just that. For their testimony is finished and God will remove His hand of restraint of Satan as Judgment on the unfaithful. And so all Israel shall be saved! When we read 2nd Thessalonians 2:10,11, and 12, we see the reasons. Those who think that the Lord will not remove his hand of restraint of Satan to bring Judgment on those who refuse to receive truth of scripture are not reading, nor considering all of these scriptures carefully.
To make a long story short, (already been too long for the average person) the binding of Satan to withhold or restrain this horrible iniquity of deceiving was instituted by the Cross of Christ, and it will last until the time near the end of the world, when Christ is taken out of the midst of the Churches (where two or three are gathered together in His name, there is He in the midst~Matthew 18:20). Satan is then loosed as Judgment
upon this unfaithful Church, as the Lord says that "judgment must begin at the House of the God." This judgment doesn't last long because Satan's end is that he will be destroyed with the manifestation or brightness of the Lord's second coming.
So this Binding of Satan, and his Iniquity being held down is all intimately tied together. You can't have this iniquity loosed without Satan being loosed, and vise versa. They both are of the same restraining that took place at the Cross when Christ wounded his head (but his deadly wound will be healed!) Just as the scriptures said, in order for Christ to spoil Satan's house, He first had to Bind him. He did! And his house has been continually spoiled every since. And it will continue to be spoiled until all that are to be sealed, are sealed. Then the dragon Satan will be unsealed, and loosed, and the end follow soon thereafter.
Revelation 13:3, 12~"And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast...............................And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed"
Fits perfectly with the bounding and loosing of Satan. Of course, there is~ what do we expect, there's a perfect flow of truth throughout God's word.
Does anyone need help in understanding Revelation 13:3, and verse12? I'll be happy to share my understanding with them?
he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him
::pondering:: This is rich spiritual food for sheep to eat~lush green pastures! Thank you Lord Jesus!
Morning RB,
By the length of your post, it looks as if you have recovered a bit from the last visit of grands. I'm sure you wouldn't exchange them for the world, but they will tax your energy keeping up with them, for sure.
Ok, back to the chronology of "binding the strong man". I've no argument that the symbolism of the "strong man" was fully intended to represent Satan. But this is where you again have the chronology of Satan's biography going off track. You are putting great emphasis on Christ "FIRST" binding the strong man, and THEN spoiling his goods. And this is absolutely true. But you are applying that to the wrong period of history.
What you are tripping over is failing to recognize that Christ was ALREADY SPOILING Satan's "goods" by casting our devils during His earthly ministry because Satan had "FIRST" BEEN BOUND much earlier in time before Christ's days on earth. You would have the binding of Satan being initiated at the cross. That's impossible, because the "spoiling" of Satan's property by Christ and the disciples casting out of devils was clear evidence of Satan's binding being initiated even before Christ's earthly ministry.
The "defeat" of Satan that was accomplished by the cross and the resurrection was to have Satan lose the battle in heaven when Christ ascended on His resurrection day. This defeat in heaven was the catalyst for turning Satan into an infuriated foe. He was a cornered rat on earth at that time, with only a few more desperate years of that "short time" left in which to operate on the planet upon which he was loosed.
You seem to be avoiding the clear examples I am giving of Satan's obviously loosed condition by the "armor of God" example, the "roaring lion" example, and Satan's willful "ensnaring" people at his pleasure in those first-century days. You need to deal directly with each one of these examples, because there is no getting around them.
Instead of addressing these examples above, you are bringing up the temporarily restrained "MAN of Lawlessness" (not Satan) who would be operating similar to Satan with lying wonders, etc. This was NOT SATAN being "withheld" by a chain. It was a MAN who was going to sit in the actual second temple claiming to be God, once this MAN'S restrainer was taken out of the way.
It was not a "chain" that was "withholding" the revelation of this one particular MAN of Lawlessness. It was another man who was doing the "withholding" of this single Man of Lawlessness. I have already written before that this MAN was the Zealot named Menahem who was being restrained by the high priesthood with Ananias in power at the time Paul was writing. Ananias and the high priesthood still being in power in those days was keeping Zealotry in check. The Zealot cause was an influence in Israel that was "already working" in Paul's days. The word "Lawless ones" was applied in prophecy to the Zealot thieves crucified beside Christ, because Christ "was numbered with the lawless ones".
Satan's biography is not a triumphant one.
Satan had been bound long before Christ's earthly ministry. The examples of devils being cast out of those in Israel were proof that Satan had "FIRST" been bound already before then.
Satan and his devils were then defeated in heaven by an ascending Christ. Satan was "judged" (John 16:11) by being kicked out of heaven's realm forever at that point, and thrown down to earth for a "short time" (Revelation 12:12). At this point, the "judgment of the earth" began (John 12:31) by Satan's wrathful presence among humanity - fully released for only that "little season" after the millennium's end (Revelation 20:3). Satan was doing whatever deceptive damage he could during that first century, as we have multiple examples listed above in Ephesians 6:11-18, 1 Peter 5:8, and 2 Tim. 2:26.
Then Satan and all his devils were "imprisoned" in the city of Jerusalem, as Isaiah 24:21-23 and Revelation 18:2 described. After which time of oppressing the inhabitants of the city in that "Great Tribulation" period, Satan and his devils were destroyed to ashes on the earth by God's consuming fire, as Ezekiel 28:18-19 predicted.
A dead Satan was then crushed under the feet of the believers, as promised in Romans 16:20. And every unclean spirit "passed out of the land", as predicted in Zechariah 13:2.
This is not a story with a happy ending for Satan and his devils. And since you yourself, RB, believe Satan comes to a similar dismal ending, how is this such a "damnable doctrine" if I am showing from scripture how God already performed this very thing in the past?
You are imposing your own view of what it means that Satan be bound rather than the biblical view. I present a biblical view of what it means that Satan be bound. You obviously didn't bother to read it, or you simply ignored it.
Of course I read what you wrote, 4WD. Anybody taking the time to post something online here deserves that respect at the bare minimum.
But the argument I am currently engaging in with RB for the moment is not really discussing what composes that particular binding of Satan. We are concentrating more on the chronology of WHEN that binding took place, and WHEN Satan was released. This determines exactly WHEN the millennium was "finished" and "expired". Simply that. It gets into a different kind of discussion when we delve into HOW that binding affected Satan.
: 3 Resurrections Thu Jan 20, 2022 - 10:01:12This is not a story with a happy ending for Satan and his devils. And since you yourself, RB, believe Satan comes to a similar dismal ending, how is this such a "damnable doctrine" if I am showing from scripture how God already performed this very thing in the past?
I said my last one would be all on that particular point~I may post more to better cover certain points
By the length of your post, it looks as if you have recovered a bit from the last visit of grands.
We both have, getting some good sleep without NOISE and little feet running everywhere~the older ones are so so taxing as the younger.
At the moment I'm studying to answer so I cannot be gainsaid. I want to be as thorough as possible with my limited ability, so give me time, I'm laboring to decide my next move. There're so many different avenues to approach this~so I need time. I may be ready by tomorrow. ::smile::
: 3 Resurrections Thu Jan 20, 2022 - 10:01:12What you are tripping over is failing to recognize that Christ was ALREADY SPOILING Satan's "goods" by casting our devils during His earthly ministry because Satan had "FIRST" BEEN BOUND much earlier in time before Christ's days on earth. You would have the binding of Satan being initiated at the cross. That's impossible, because the "spoiling" of Satan's property by Christ and the disciples casting out of devils was clear evidence of Satan's binding being initiated even before Christ's earthly ministry.
As I go on into this discussion, please address below my questions and thoughts.
When and where do the scriptures reveal Satan was bound
much earlier in time before Christ's days on earth~and show the
reason "why" he was bound.
I agree that Satan's power was restained as far as Israel after the flesh was concerned at times in their history.
Also, the casting out of devils during Christ's ministry on earth was proof that the kingdom of God had come as promised in the OT. Satan did not need to be bound, because a greater and more powerful kingdom was there confronting Satan's kingdom~yet this kingdom at Christ's coming was limited to Israel only, it was not meet to take the children's bread and cast it to the dogs. But that all changed when Israel rejected the kingdom and its king! They were looking for an earthly kingdom of this world and still are btw. All this was done by the determining eternal counsel of God
The Gentile nations steep in worshipping false gods were going to get that kingdom promised in the OT, yet in order to accomplish this, Satan, their god had to be bound and was according to the word of God.
This is only half of the story, the Gentiles like Israel of old did as wicked as Israel in turning away their ears from hearing the word of God, and that rebellion brings on the wrath of God just as it did on Israel after the flesh.
The book of Daniel, certain parts of the gospels, and 2nd Thessalonians 2; and Revelation, covers this period of the Gentiles nations rebellious spirit and the judgment that was appointed unto them of God, and how God had His seven thousand who never bow their knees to the god of the nations they were in, and because of this suffered greatly at their hands.
Preterism rejects these truths and rubber-stamps much of the bible by saying
FULLIFLLED 70 A.D. ! leaving us with very little scriptures for the church in the very midst of this great tribulation that Daniel, Christ, Paul, and John said would come and is upon her even as we speak.
We are now living at the end of the days of the parable of the
mustard seed. Matthew 13:31~"Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof. "
This parable is very easy to understand and if one does not understand this parable then how could they ever understand any of the parables.
This parable proves that your position on the devil and his evil spirits friends were destroyed in 70 A.D. is false and they are very much alive and present in the churches of the Gentiles in the last days before the coming of Jesus Christ.
The kingdom of heaven/God which IS HERE at this very hour~ started out in the days of Christ very, very small, only about a hundred and twenty in the upper room just before Pentecost has turned in the one of, if not the largest known entity in this world on just about every secondary and main street across this globe.
Guess what, they are
not filled with saints but
fowls of the air...in other words devils, and teachings doctrines of devils in those places of worship! They are not just there~they LODGE THERE, permanently to stay! The man of sin ruling in the temple of God~so, let those in Judea flee unto the mountains and they WILL~that's, the seven thousand will.
I may take some chapters in Revelation and prove that that prophetic book gives us details of these very days~days going on now, not 2000 years ago.
: 3 Resurrections on: Thu Jan 20, 2022 - 10:01:12 When and where do the scriptures reveal Satan was bound much earlier in time before Christ's days on earth~and show the reason "why" he was bound.
I really need you to address this for now.
3Rs,
May I be permitted to interject a question here?
You claim Satan had been bound and then Satan was released ... for his little time.... See reply #29 of this thread.
This chained-up, sealed condition on Satan's deception of the nations was released at Christ's ascension that resurrection day.
If Satan was bound and not released until Christ's ascension that resurrection day who was Jesus talking to when he said
Matt 4: 10 Then Jesus said to him, "Away with you, Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.' " ?
This was before His crucifixion and during His 40 days in the wilderness after His own baptism by John.Please answer only after you respond to RB. TY!
I'll give a quick brief overview of "my" understanding of Revelation 13. Evil beasts are images in Scripture that often signify the carnal (fleshly), beastly, dangerous and wicked nature of man. It is sometimes used to signify evil Kingdoms or wicked carnal individuals therein.
: DavidPsalms 73:22~"So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee."
It is my position that beasts are often used in Scripture to signify the animalistic flesh-driven nature of man.
Without Christ, man is as a creature or beast
without conscience or wisdom, and like a beast his driving force is to get whatever it desires, to tear, to devour,
without consideration for law. It is often used to represent kingdoms or individuals as a token of those who live by the flesh (carnal nature) rather than the Spirit of God's law. We are convinced that Revelation chapter 13 uses this imagery to paint a portrait of the carnal and wicked kingdom of Satan, as well
as the false prophets whom he empowers to devour. The carnal, rebellious, disobedient man ruled by Satan is the likness (image) of the beast.
See 2nd Corinthians 11:13-15Revelation 13:1-2~"And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority."
Without going into too much detail, the sea often used in Scripture as a synonym for the deep, bottomless pit or abyss, the spiritual place where this evil spirit resides ready to be loosed upon man at any moment. The first beast is the body of the antichrist (his kingdom)
that was wounded at Christ's death and resurrection.
The heads in Scripture often signify authority, and the number 7 is the perfect number of completeness. Thus I believe that the 7 heads represent Satan's authority to rule as the prince of this world throughout time (7 mountains = 7 kingdoms). Those seven kingdoms are easily identified in the Scriptures...later we may cover them.
Horns in Scripture often signify the power
of whatever is in view, as the horn that was broken in Daniel (meaning his power was broken). The number 10 signifies
the fullness of whatever is in view.
In this instance the 10 horns signify Satan's "Power" over men to rule for the fullness of this short period of time near the time of the end of the world. The fullness and rule of this period is also spoken of in Scripture as one hour. Thus these 10 horns rule (as kings) with the beast kingdom one hour. And their crowns again illustrate they reign with him. i.e., crowns are for kings.
: JOHNRevelation 17:12~"And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast."
This also shows clearly that the first beast (with these 10 horns) spans the completeness (7) of time, and near the end of this time (the 1 hour of God's judgment) when the church is overtaken by the man of sin, these 10 kings will reign driven by the spirit of the devil himself for this short period (little season) after Satan is loosed from the bottomless pit. The
wound that was healed was the power of Satan to deceive the nations, which was before taken away (when Satan was bound) by Chris. At this time when Satan is loosed (the would healed), he again goes out to gather together and deceive the nations to bring them up against the camp of the saints.
: THE HOLY GHOSTRevelation 13:3~"And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast."
Christ, of course, wounded him by the cross, and also looses the beast, or heals that wound, after all Israel are sealed. (See
2nd Peter 3:9)Satan is loosed so that He might bring judgment upon the unfaithful (spiritual harlot) church.
: JOHNRevelation 13:4-5~"And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months."
Under the authority of Satan, these kings rule and go to make war
against the camp of the saints (the church), it being judged of God for its abominations, after which is the return of Christ on the clouds of glory. Christ wounds and Christ heals that wound, to the glory of God.
Compare Revelation 17:8,11 of, "the beast that was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit." In other words, this is the Beast, this is the power of Satan as he brought Israel into apostasy, as Christ defeated him, and as he again ascends out of the bottomless pit to attack the church. Just as a ravenous beast would attack the sheep in a fold, so Satan comes as an adversary of the house of God.
He was because He ruled before Christ bound him. He is not because Christ bound Him. And He ascends out of the Pit because Christ looses him.And the ability to bring God's external church down was bound or restrained by Christ's binding Satan at the cross, but his losing at end of the millennial reign allows this judgment, even as Israel was judged.
Thus the Gentile congregation is no better than the Jewish one. Apostasy knows no bounds. The blasphemies that he speaks are his false teachings and contradictions forsaking the Word of God. These are the great things he speaks that deceive and which Revelation 13 talks about.
Revelation 13:6-7~"And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."
Same as Revelation 20 when Satan is loosed from the Pit to make war with the saints.
: JOHNRevelation 13:8-9~"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, let him hear."
All of those who aren't sealed of God in Israel worship the carnal, Pseudo, or Antichrist religion instead of God. He has deceived them so that they serve him, while thinking they do God service.
Revelation 13:10-11~"He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon."
Later
RB, please, slow it down. We are talking about one point only right now. It does no good to throw an entire basket of tennis balls into the court. They only deflect from the main point of WHEN Satan was released, which was the same time as the millennium was "expired" and "finished".
You have asked me to prove that Satan was bound with his millennial chain much earlier than Christ's ministry. I have already done this with the discussion of Christ "FIRST binding the strong man" (which we agree is Satan) even BEFORE He spoiled Satan's goods. If Christ was comparing His own casting out of devils during His earthly ministry with this "spoiling of Satan's goods, then Satan MUST have already been bound "FIRST" before then. This is a very, very simple point. I could get my autistic grandson to understand this chronology of what happens "FIRST".
All during Christ's earthly ministry, Satan was still in that restricted condition of not deceiving the nations. (They were doing a competent job of deceiving themselves, however, even without Satan's influence.) But Christ predicted to the people just when that release of Satan would occur. Five days before His crucifixion, Jesus told them "NOW is the judgment of this world; NOW shall the prince of this world be cast out." He was referring to the war in heaven, in which Satan would be cast out of heaven, down to the earth for that "short time" of deceiving the nations once more. And scripture tells us that this very prediction Christ made was applying to what death He was about to die (John 12:31-33).
And once more, on the very night of the Last Supper, Christ again warned the disciples "The prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me." (John 14:30). Satan was soon going to be released in great wrath on earth for that "short time" of deceiving the nations again, and Christ wanted the disciples to be forewarned of this rapidly-approaching threat. Mercifully, the newly-risen Christ did not let even a day go by of Satan's release from his millennial chain before He came to breath the Holy Spirit into His disciples that evening. That Holy Spirit in them was greater than he that was in the world (a newly-released Satan).
For Rella,
Your objection seems to be based on the supposition that a bound Satan who cannot deceive is a bound Satan who cannot move, and cannot even be present in that situation. Not so. That was not a literal metal chain put upon Satan made of interlocking links, and it was not a literal pit of earth and rock with no bottom to it. These were symbols denoting a spiritual limit on what influence Satan was allowed to have on the minds of men.
Do you see Satan being able to successfully deceive Christ in that wilderness setting? Of course not. The millennial chain restricting Satan's deception also never states that Satan would not TRY to deceive. It just means he himself would have no success with his efforts to deceive.
: JOHNRevelation 13:10-11~ "He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon."
John sees another vision of a beast coming up from the earth. The earth signifies they come up from the world, and this beast has two horns like a lamb, but speaks as a dragon.
This beast represents the false prophets. They come looking like they have the power of the prophets of light (horns signify power, the number two signifies the truthful witness of the church), but what gives them away is that they speak
as the Dragon, which is Satan. In other words, they appear as a messenger of light, but their gospel is false and of the adversary Satan. WHich proves Satan has not gone anywhere still doing what he has always done~being an enemy of God and truth.
The first beast, who the false prophets cause men to worship, represents the antichrist system of this world, or more to the point
Satan's substitute kingdom.
It is the body of false worshipers. Revelation is written this way because just as the true church is represented by the body of Christ, and the Old Testament congregation by the body of Moses, the false congregations is seen as the body of the anti (substitute) or false Christ. The false prophets are those who cause the unfaithful to depart from Scripture and worship Him. All Israel who are not sealed unto the day of redemption.
Revelation 13:12-14~
"And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live."
The deadly wound was given the beast who is to be worshiped
at the cross. Christ dealt the adversary a death wound so that he could not deceive the nations (and the church could be built),
but at this time Satan is loosed from his prison. This is spoken of as the deadly wound being healed, and the reason is so that the unfaithful people of the world might again serve him (as judgment). The false prophets, the second beast, deceive the unfaithful people and seduce them into serving this antichrist kingdom
by means of false miracles, signs and wonders. Remember, the devil was bound for the specific purpose of the nations not being deceived. Now that He is loosed, his false prophets again deceive the nations,
in order to usher in the Lord's second coming.
Revelation 13:15-16~" And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:"
The false prophets give life to the likeness of the Antichrist by propagating their false teachings, which leads to them overcoming the church and causing all the faithful therein (the two witnesses=JEWS and GENTILES) to be killed. Those remaining as a judgment of God are said to be marked on their hand (not literally as some suppose, but spiritually~speaking of them in FELLOWSHIP with the beast signifying their will belongs to them,) and in their forehead, signifying their mind is sold out to Satan, they are in AGREEMENT in the spirit of doing wickedness. Just as a cow is branded or marked to signify ownership, so this signifies these unsealed are slaves to the antichrist~this world system.
Revelation 13:17-18~"And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."
I'm coming back in the morning and finishing this chapter.
: 3 Resurrections Sat Jan 22, 2022 - 11:18:03RB, please, slow it down. We are talking about one point only right now. It does no good to throw an entire basket of tennis balls into the court. They only deflect from the main point of WHEN Satan was released, which was the same time as the millennium was "expired" and "finished".
That is not the real question. I am almost positive that RB agrees with you on that statement. But the real question is when did the millennium end. And that is where you are clearly wrong. You are both talking past each other. With you 3 Res, being a Preterist, that is typical in any discussion in eschatology.
Revelation thirteen is very critical to understand for it helps greatly in understanding the
timeline of Satan's blinding and loosening~or when his deadly wound is healed, which is one and the same.
Also, it helps to know perfectly whose is under consideration of Satan's wrath~you desire to limit it to national Israel, when the truth is~they are
not even under consideration. His wrath mainly is directed to the camp of the saints, the spiritual twelve tribes of Israel~the two witnesses of Revelation, God's two chosen Olive trees~per Zachariah 4; Romans 11; and Revelation 11.
This wrath of Satan reaches its pinnacle during the time of Jacob's trouble~the greatest
spiritual tribulation period ever to take place on this earth. A time the likes this world has never seen, no will ever see. It will not be fought with spears and swords, tanks and missiles, guns and bombs, but over the words of the Living God....those who keep the testimony of Jesus Christ, against those that despise those glorious and blessed truths.
: JohnRevelation 12:17~"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
3 Resurrections~maybe some think I'm speaking past you, but these things are important to see and understand, in order to get this timeline correct of Satan's blinding and losing~the time his deadly wound was healed which makes up the eight and FINAL KINGDOM on this earth to withstand the God of heaven and His chosen holy army of believers.
Now to quickly finish chapter 13, then I'll look at another chapter that helps to see the release of Satan for short time just before the coming Of Jesus Christ and the end of the world. Revelation mainly has to do with the last half of the times of Christ~the last half of the week of Daniel's prophecy.
: THE HOLY GHOSTRevelation 13:17-18~"And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."
A number of "a" man without the Spirit of God!
The buying and selling
signify the work of the church, and no one can work within the latter-day false churches except those who have been spiritually marked slaves of Satan~the saints are, for the most part, gone, cast out as trouble makers, spiritually zealots, unwanted, for they make those who have the mark of beast uncomfortable, etc.
: JOHNRevelation 11:10~"And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
God's faithful witnesses
tormented the conscience of those false witnesses of the latter-day churches where the spirit of devils dwell who alone are able to buy and sell therein! Much like Christ's days and all the prophets before them. Selah
The mark~ God tells us is 666, the number of a man void of God's Spirit.
: THE HOLY GHOSTZachariah 13:7-9~Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast~and its secret lies within such scriptures as Zachariah 13:7-9!
666 is two-thirds of a whole, leaving a small remnant of one-third.
666 is the mark of beast meaning all that follow the devil has that mark on the forehead (in agreement with him) and on their right hand (meaning in fellowship by following the king of darkness~and all of them like Eve truly think they are making themselves wise by doing so! That's called deception. If the truth was truly proclaimed we ALL are born with the mark of the beast! The mystery of iniquity is no new doctrine, it has been here since the fall of man! The only thing different is that it will increase greatly as this world comes to its end. He that hath ears, LET HIM HEAR!
Now you can give your own timeline so we can compare them to the scriptures in order to put it to the test against the testimony of the scriptures, the ONLY source of truth.
: 3 Resurrections Sat Jan 22, 2022 - 11:18:03For Rella,
Your objection seems to be based on the supposition that a bound Satan who cannot deceive is a bound Satan who cannot move, and cannot even be present in that situation. Not so. That was not a literal metal chain put upon Satan made of interlocking links, and it was not a literal pit of earth and rock with no bottom to it. These were symbols denoting a spiritual limit on what influence Satan was allowed to have on the minds of men.
Do you see Satan being able to successfully deceive Christ in that wilderness setting? Of course not. The millennial chain restricting Satan's deception also never states that Satan would not TRY to deceive. It just means he himself would have no success with his efforts to deceive.
Why do you not listen to us when we say the SAME THING to you as far as Satan being bound~we too, have taught that Satan's blinding is nothing more than a
restraint placed upon him, and his loosening is nothing more than allowing him to use MORE power.
: 3 Resurrections Reply #76 on: Sat Jan 08, 2022 - 09:52:42RB,
You are confusing the innate ability of mankind to perform wickedly with Satan instigating those actions. Satan does not need to be released for mankind to deceive itself - whether Jew or Gentile back in Solomon's days. That is one of the lessons we can learn from Satan being bound from AD 968 967 BC until the ascension in AD 33.
You claim that Satan was bound due to Christ's crucifixion, but it is the opposite. He was RELEASED from his chain at that point. This is why we have verses such as Peter warning the believers in those days that their adversary the Devil was then "walking about as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour" in 1 Peter 5:8. That is NOT a chained-up Satan being described there.
A loosed Satan is why we have the text about the saints putting on the whole armor of God at that point in Ephesians 6:11-18, so that they could withstand the attacks of Satan. That is NOT a chained-up Satan in that text.
A loosed Satan is why we have verses such as 2 Timothy 2:26, with the saints being encouraged to recover themselves out of the snare of the Devil, who were being taken captive by him "at his will". That is NOT a chained-up Satan in that text.
You are talking out of both sides of your mouth! Inconsistency is the hallmark of error!
Maybe you want to reconsider your position.
For Rella,
Your objection seems to be based on the supposition that a bound Satan who cannot deceive is a bound Satan who cannot move, and cannot even be present in that situation. Not so. That was not a literal metal chain put upon Satan made of interlocking links, and it was not a literal pit of earth and rock with no bottom to it. These were symbols denoting a spiritual limit on what influence Satan was allowed to have on the minds of men.
Do you see Satan being able to successfully deceive Christ in that wilderness setting? Of course not. The millennial chain restricting Satan's deception also never states that Satan would not TRY to deceive. It just means he himself would have no success with his efforts to deceive.
[/quote]
Sorry for the length of the following but pent up thoughts just beg to burst forth.
Your logic is about as clear as mud.
And only correct, in a limited way. My supposition that "A bound Satan who cannot deceive is a bound Satan who cannot move, and cannot even be present in that situation." I do believe that based on the chains that I believe to be real. And I believe based on Rev 20:1
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand
Where in history have you read that The chains were not real?
Starting with Rev 20: 1-3
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.
Holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and holding a great chain.
What do YOU suppose that chain was for? Maybe walking the dog? Or is it your contention the chain put Satan on a short leash so he could get about like someone with an ankle monitor out of prison..... but then you have that sealed over. So Satan might well have had unlimited movement in the pit... just could not get out.
"into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him"
Now if there was no pit that Satan was thrown in... why was there a key? Maybe to pick up Satan's belongings at the Greyhound Bus Station?
What do you suppose the reason for sealing the pit over him was for, if this was simply a spiritual binding then Satan could come and go as he pleased? Also if merely spiritual then the chain ? And a key? ::frown::
"he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended"
Why do you suppose that he was to be loosed after the 1000 years were ended? What was the purpose? Why allow the nations to be deceived for a short time then never again... as we go on and on waiting.
Why do you suppose Rev 20:7 says
And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth?
It is clear that his demons , through out the NT had freedom even while he had his whatever confinement. Jesus handled those demons with out trouble. If he was bound even spiritually without influence, then his Demons really did not need him at all. That is just common logic.
Therefore, there would be no need to say "and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth" because that has been ongoing with or without his presence.
And again, what is he coming out from if he is only spiritually handicapped, and more importantly DO YOU REALLY THINK that Jesus could have been tempted by SATAN with or without Satanic limitations?.... (those pesky 40 days in Jesus' time)?
I DO NOT...
I will close this with my thoughts on why the 1000 years did not end with the resurrections and ascension
First let us talk about the 1000 years. I use 1000 years because the word millennium is not biblical. I find it bothersome as I do Easter in King Jimmy's translation.
How long is 1000 years you might ask? At all times one must remember that we are talking of references from the book of Revelation. A book that is highly symbolic.
There can be little doubt that the 1000 years began with the completed work of Christ on earth... not ended with it.
Rev 19 celebrates the triumph of the One who is "King of kings and Lord of lords"
Rev 20 enters in that pesky 1000 years.
But when does it truly end?
Rev 20 suggests it as continuing until the end of the age, when after being loosened Satan is fee to deceive the nations until the final judgment takes place.
That can only mean that the evil one is bound from deceiving the nations, and bound from directing his demons, until just before the conclusion of salvation history.
So...Why then, does Revelation use the expression a thousand years?
We know that in terms of biblical numbers, ten represents fullness, and a thousand is ten times ten times ten, hence fullness times fullness times fullness.
A very large number without it being a precise chronology of human history.
Nowhere else, have I found... (if you do let me know)... any scripture limiting the binding of Satan's binding to a specific period of time before the end of the age.
Consider there are other places in scripture , however, where the word thousand is used without being a literal number. Such as...Psalm 68:17 , where the chariots of God are said to be "twice ten thousand."
Is it not highly unlikely that God has only twenty thousand active angels at his beck and call?
Afterall, Jesus on the cross could have called down twelve legions of angels (Matt 26:53)... which is far more than twenty thousand.
The message is one of fullness, and 1000 years is the same in Rev 20.
One day, the fullness of the elect will be brought into the church, and then the end will come.
It is not a matter of literally one thousand years, but of God's secret timing as to the gathering of His people into union with the Christ, however long that may take from our human perspective.
DO YOU DISAGREE as we are told in Matt 28: 19 that after Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection, and immediately before His ascension back to the Father, He commissioned the church to "go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"?
They would be able to do this because of Jesus' victory over Satan, who had long blinded the nations, for He told us in Matt 28: 18 , ''All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me'' .
It was at this point that Satan's illegitimate power over the nations has been wrested from him, and placed into the hands of our legitimate Lord and Savior of the world.
Allowing the Christian church to do its work. Engaging in successful missions all over the world, bringing the good news of freedom from captivity to those who had long been in chains themselves because of sin and unbelief.
When Jesus purged all of our sins on Calvary, something happened to Satan. The evil one lost his authority to keep people back from God. He was bound by what Jesus did.... Not the other way around.
The question I have is if Satan has been loosed for his short time yet.
I think the answer to that is Yes.
Overall, you did a good job with your post. If I may I want to answer this question:
: Rella on: Yesterday at 18:34:03Nowhere else, have I found... (if you do let me know)... any scripture limiting the binding of Satan's binding to a specific period of time before the end of the age.
Later...RB
: Rella Sun Jan 23, 2022 - 18:34:03Nowhere else, have I found... (if you do let me know)... any scripture limiting the binding of Satan's binding to a specific period of time before the end of the age.
2ND THESSALONIANS CHAPTER 2 speaks of the
God's Timeline for the NT church briefly and it is there we see where the Mystery of iniquity
restraint is removed during the falling away of the worshippers at the NT Temple of God~where the man of sin would sit a reign therein,
just as he did when the kingdom of heaven as preached by John the Baptist came in his days by him preparing the way of the promised Messiah. No new thing under the sun just a the wise said three thousand years ago.
This chapter truly fits in perfectly with what is being discussed and should be considered along with other important scriptures we hope to cover over time as the Lord wills. Maybe we will do one verse a day until we are finished with what we desire to cover in this chapter.
Verse one~"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of Our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"
In verse one Paul is referencing the return of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and
our gathering together unto him~so, there can be no mistake as to what coming the apostle Paul is speaking about....Jesus coming when every eye shall see him.
Earlier in chapter one of this same letter, he said these words:
: Paul2nd Thessalonians 1:7-10~"And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
There are some worthy points we need to make concerning Jesus' second and only coming since he left in Acts one.
the Lord Jesus shall be revealed~This coming will be a revelation, not a secret rapture coming, that is taught by so many.
with his mighty angels~literally angels, not ministers, as so many proclaim. Every time the Lord Jesus taught on his second coming, he always mention his holy angels coming with him for the purpose of gathering together the elect from the four winds of heaven. Read the gospel:
Matthew 16:27; 24:30,31; etc. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord~His second coming is a time of revelation and a time of judgment upon the whole world, all that know not God and obey not the gospel.
When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. His coming will be a time when Jesus shall be glorified in his
saints, which consist in Gentiles and Jews, the two faithful witnesses of God's truth.
The entire flow and context of chapter of 2nd Thessalonians 2 confirm this. The only question is, #1) when will the second coming presence of the Lord be, and #2) when will the saints be gathered together to meet Him as this verse specifies? The only biblical answer to these questions I believe is, at the end of the world when what is commonly called 'The Rapture' will take place~all the word means is "caught up" and we agree, where we disagree is that it is no secret rapture and there is no time after the resurrection of all folks, both the righteous and the wicked.
And this is also what that first verse of 2nd Thessalonians 2 is speaking about. Christ's coming presence, and our "gathering together" to meet Him. Comparing scripture with scripture, we read in 1st Thessalonians:
: Paul1st Thessalonians 4:15-17~"For this we say unto you by the Word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the Coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. for the Lord Himself shall descend with a shout, and the voice of the Archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
Clearly, this is in full agreement with 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2:1. This is the coming presence of the Lord when the saints would be gathered together to meet Him. The two verses use almost the same language of the second coming. It's not talking about 70 A.D., it's not talking about a time when the Romans overran Jerusalem, and it's not talking about a time when Pigs were slaughtered in a Temple as some surmise. By allowing scripture to interpret scripture, we can see that it's parallel language to the second coming of the Lord, and our gathering together to Meet Him.
It never ceases to amaze me how some people take a concise and relatively easy to understand verse (considering the rest of scripture), and by theological osmosis make it appear all over the place, where thirty different people can come to thirty different conclusions, and they all will be considered valid points of view. Many make it so complicated that it's almost as if they want you to think we can't know where the truth really lies so that every idea will be valid.
For example,
there are those who claim it's not really speaking about His second coming, they claim it's speaking about a second presence of the Lord which occurred in the past. This theory is usually taught in order to support the Preterist doctrine that Christ returned in 70 A.D. to Jerusalem, gathered the Elect, and fulfilled Matthew chapter 24.
The context, content, and all other pertinent scriptures which relate to Christ's coming again, the apostasy, and God's judgments,
make it unmistakably clear that this is referring to Christ's second coming presence/revelation at the end of the world. ..which we will see as this study progresses.
: RB Tue Jan 25, 2022 - 05:17:04
2ND THESSALONIANS CHAPTER 2 speaks of the God's Timeline for the NT church briefly and it is there we see where the Mystery of iniquity restraint is removed during the falling away of the worshippers at the NT Temple of God~where the man of sin would sit a reign therein, just as he did when the kingdom of heaven as preached by John the Baptist came in his days by him preparing the way of the promised Messiah. No new thing under the sun just a the wise said three thousand years ago.
This chapter truly fits in perfectly with what is being discussed and should be considered along with other important scriptures we hope to cover over time as the Lord wills. Maybe we will do one verse a day until we are finished with what we desire to cover in this chapter.
In verse one Paul is referencing the return of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto him~so, there can be no mistake as to what coming the apostle Paul is speaking about....Jesus coming when every eye shall see him.
Earlier in chapter one of this same letter, he said these words: There are some worthy points we need to make concerning Jesus' second and only coming since he left in Acts one.
the Lord Jesus shall be revealed~This coming will be a revelation, not a secret rapture coming, that is taught by so many.
with his mighty angels~literally angels, not ministers, as so many proclaim. Every time the Lord Jesus taught on his second coming, he always mention his holy angels coming with him for the purpose of gathering together the elect from the four winds of heaven. Read the gospel: Matthew 16:27; 24:30,31; etc.
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord~His second coming is a time of revelation and a time of judgment upon the whole world, all that know not God and obey not the gospel.
When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. His coming will be a time where Jesus shall be glorified in his saints, which consist in Gentiles and Jews, the two faithful witnesses of God's truth.
The entire flow and context of chapter of 2nd Thessalonians 2 confirm this. The only question is, #1) when will the second coming presence of the Lord be, and #2) when will the saints be gathered together to meet Him as this verse specifies? The only biblical answer to these questions I believe is, at the end of the world when what is commonly called 'The Rapture' will take place~all the word means is "caught up" and we agree, where we disagree is that it is no secret rapture and there is no time after the resurrection of all folks, both the righteous and the wicked.
And this is also what that first verse of 2nd Thessalonians 2 is speaking about. Christ's coming presence, and our "gathering together" to meet Him. Comparing scripture with scripture, we read in 1st Thessalonians:Clearly, this is in full agreement with 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2:1. This is the coming presence of the Lord when the saints would be gathered together to meet Him. The two verses use almost the same language of the second coming. It's not talking about 70 A.D., it's not talking about a time when the Romans overran Jerusalem, and it's not talking about a time when Pigs were slaughtered in a Temple as some surmise. By allowing scripture to interpret scripture, we can see that it's parallel language to the second coming of the Lord, and our gathering together to Meet Him.
It never ceases to amaze me how some people take a concise and relatively easy to understand verse (considering the rest of scripture), and by theological osmosis make it appear all over the place, where thirty different people can come to thirty different conclusions, and they all will be considered valid points of view. Many make it so complicated that it's almost as if they want you to think we can't know where the truth really lies so that every idea will be valid.
For example, there are those who claim it's not really speaking about His second coming, they claim it's speaking about a second presence of the Lord which occurred in the past. This theory is usually taught in order to support the Preterist doctrine that Christ returned in 70 A.D. to Jerusalem, gathered the Elect, and fulfilled Matthew chapter 24. The context, content, and all other pertinent scriptures which relate to Christ's coming again, the apostasy, and God's judgments, make it unmistakably clear that this is referring to Christ's second coming presence/revelation at the end of the world. ..which we will see as this study progresses.
A verse by verse is a great idea....
HOWEVER ::smile:: to not be a devil's advocate... because I believe you and I are reasonable close in our beliefs of His 2nd coming, you need to know the verses you provided DO lay groundwork for for that possibility in 70AD. (And, without comment there could be some that will read this post and say... "Well, there's the proof I need" and never go farther (Or further?) into the subject.
You quoted
Quote
Verse one~"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of Our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"
Then commented
In verse one Paul is referencing the return of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto him~so, there can be no mistake as to what coming the apostle Paul is speaking about....Jesus coming when every eye shall see him.
Before going on further people need to realize that Paul's use of the our had nothing to do with you or me... it had to do with the people he was writing to and himself. ( The new 'Christians' of the day)
Either
1. Translations came up short, or
2. Paul thought the time was closer then it was for His 2nd coming
I vote the later because of the bolded red words below.
You commented on
Quote from: Paul
1st Thessalonians 4:15-17~"For this we say unto you by the Word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the Coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. for the Lord Himself shall descend with a shout, and the voice of the Archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
Clearly, this is in full agreement with 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2:1. This is the coming presence of the Lord when the saints would be gathered together to meet Him. The two verses use almost the same language of the second coming. It's not talking about 70 A.D., it's not talking about a time when the Romans overran Jerusalem, and it's not talking about a time when Pigs were slaughtered in a Temple as some surmise. By allowing scripture to interpret scripture, we can see that it's parallel language to the second coming of the Lord, and our gathering together to Meet Him.
However.... can you not see why some could misinterpret what Paul was saying because these definitely suggest Paul would be alive... as they , in that day... would be? And that God directed temple destruction surly must have seemed like an Armagedon to those who experienced it.
I am all for doing a verse by verse. Of this book and any other in our search for knowledge and truth ... but you have to read the words and understand why others could see them differently.
: 3 Resurrections Mon Jan 17, 2022 - 09:22:38
4WD, I am simply quoting from Hebrews 7:12. "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." This was referring to the change from the Levitical priesthood over to the priesthood according to the order of Melchizedek. This was the change from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant in Christ's blood.
Yes, but this verse isn't an abrogation of the entire Torah.
The (lowercase-l) law for the making of Levitical priests was done away with.
The (capital-L) Law remains, but in the hands of the Melchizedek priesthood, which actually existed before the other.
Jarrod
: Rella Tue Jan 25, 2022 - 08:47:38Before going on further people need to realize that Paul's use of the our had nothing to do with you or me... it had to do with the people he was writing to and himself. ( The new 'Christians' of the day)
Either
1. Translations came up short, or
2. Paul thought the time was closer then it was for His 2nd coming
I vote the later because of the bolded red words below.
Rella, I respectfully disagree, and here's why: Paul was writings to those beloved of God which would include you and me and every saint that has and would read these words;
2nd Thessalonians 2:13,14~"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Let me supply you with an example that Christ used:
: JESUS CHRISTMark 10:3~"And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you?"
Question for you:
"Did Moses actually say and write those words to those folks of Jesus' day? No, yet Being inspired by God what he wrote was for
every generation of Jews that would ever read what Moses said and recorded for them to do.
One more
of many we could provide:
: PaulRomans 10:19~ But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you."
First Moses said this to Israel and then all the prophets followed, and Both Moses' words and the prophets were for ALL Israel to hear even though it was fulfilled in the first century. Btw, it is still for Israel today as to why God turned to the Gentiles.......from man's perspective even though it was part of His eternal plan from eternity past~to prove to man Salvation from sin and condemnation is all of grace.
VERSE TWO~"That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of the Lord is at hand."
The focus of this study is more to establish a biblical timeline as to when Satan was loose from his blinding~niether is our focus at the moment to condemn preterism, but I feel I must briefly address the teaching that this verse alludes to the Church of Thessalonica believing that Christ had already come. They come to this conclusion based on erroneous assumptions, one of which is their handling of the words "at hand"~which means impending or soon. The problem is, this word can also be used to signify something which has come, or which is present, or, at hand in comparison to the speed of time moving so quickly. And this is why they make the error of thinking this can mean the Church thought Christ had already come. But when you read that verse with no preconceived ideas about what it means, and in the light of all other verses, we see that there is no possibility that it means that.
And it is in error on multiple levels. Again:
: THE HOLY GHOST2nd Thessalonians 2:2~"That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."
Why would Paul be writing a (letter) to them denying that Christ had already come? ..indeed why would the Church ask if Christ had already come and gathered the Church unto him? This was not the false doctrine of Hymenaeus and Philetus which declared the resurrection past, it was an idea they had of the Lord's soon coming, and that they'd be gathering together to meet Him. Exactly as the text illustrates.
Faithfully going over that verse we find not a single word that says (either explicitly or implicitly) that the Church at Thessalonica was afraid that Christ had already come. Did they fear Christ already come had taken the Church up and left "them" (and Paul) there at Thessalonica? They were certainly made well aware that when Christ returned it would be to take them up to be with Him into the Kingdom of Heaven. How could they think it had already occurred? Just reading this seems unbelievable. Did God inspire Paul writing that the Church at Thessalonica was afraid that Christ had already come and taken the Church? No, they are the Church! Did they fear they weren't? And are we to incredibly believe that the Church at Thessalonica didn't know what "the day of the Lord" was, and so thought it came and they missed it? Not at all. In fact, Paul told them in 1st Thessalonians that they were Children of the Light and that day (the day of the Lord) would not overtake them as a thief in the night. So why would they then ask if it had? The whole idea that they thought the day of the Lord had come, is built upon theological
tunnel vision and exegetical misdirection. It is not something read in scripture, it is something "read into" scripture, which many are famous for doing so.
These verses are speaking of the misapprehension of the Church as
they thought Christ would be returning soon that they would be gathered together to meet Him. The same righteous apprehension that we see every single prophet or righteous man in the old testament have at the presence of God. It is normal apprehension to know you'll be standing in the very Presence of God soon. It is the reverent fear of God.
Paul is explaining to the Church, don't be shaken or troubled in mind, that the day of the Lord was at hand. In other words,
he is saying that it isn't at hand or soon coming. This is an 'important' point. A study of the term will show that The day of Christ (The Lord) is a reference to judgment day,
not 70 A.D. He is telling them in no uncertain terms that it isn't at hand, and that it will
not arrive immediately as they were told it would. And in fact, (verse 3) they should not be deceived by any man that it would, it would not come until certain things prophesied have taken place. This should alert anyone to the error of those who are claiming that the "day of the Lord" he was talking about was already there, had already happened, or was soon to come in 70 A.D. ~as a matter of truth we would not even have to mention 70 A.D. if some false prophet had not started that theory years ago.
If I were on an island with nothing but the written word of God and began to study the scriptures I would NEVER even have a slight thought about 70 A.D. for there is not one word in the NT that would cause my mind to go into that direction, not one.
It is clear that Paul is telling them, you hear it's coming soon, but it isn't coming soon,
and that it would not arrive until certain things took place. Namely, the
signs which Christ spoke of foreshadowing His second advent. He asks them earnestly that they not be soon shaken. Why would He tell them not to be soon shaken, if they were already shaken that it had already passed? On the contrary, he is telling them that they don't even have to worry or be troubled in mind about the Lord "at hand" (soon) coming. It is not coming soon, and
not until there first is apostasy in the Holy Temple of God.
Does this language and context lead us to believe that the day would not come in their lifetime? It would certainly appear so, wouldn't it? He would certainly not be telling them don't worry about receiving an letter from us, or be troubled in mind about the day of the Lord being at hand, if it was indeed "at hand",
now would he? And a letter from him saying that it had already come is ridiculous, isn't it? That comment itself proves he wasn't talking about a belief it had already happened. He's telling them they don't even have to worry or be troubled about it coming soon, or being at hand. You won't be receiving a messages from us saying the Lord is coming soon, because it won't be coming until
the prophesy of apostasy, or the falling away of the Church takes place first. That's exactly what Paul is saying. How some theologians teach this in a way that (they theorize) it actually means Christ had come, or was coming in 70 A.D.,
is dubious at best. There isn't anything in this chapter that would lead anyone to that conclusion
without outside influence. If he meant 70 A.D., then he's contradicting himself. For the time "was" at hand, and yet he'd be declaring they shouldn't think so.
The truth is, there is nothing here to suggest such an interpretation. And only those predisposed to believe this would even think of such an understanding of this text . In other words, you'd have to be specifically directed to this, or
specifically looking for such an interpretation. You'd have to 'read it into' the text in order to see it there.
Because it's certainly not written that Christ came in 70 A.D., or that the Thessalonians thought that they had missed Christ's coming and their gathering together to meet Him. It's a disjointed understanding of the text.
The overview of verses one and two are that there was a misapprehension in the Church where they thought the Lord's second coming was at hand, and God inspires Paul to write a letter to remove their misapprehension on the subject.
: RB Thu Jan 27, 2022 - 05:02:42
VERSE TWO~
The focus of this study is more to establish a biblical timeline as to when Satan was loose from his blinding~niether is our focus at the moment to condemn preterism, but I feel I must briefly address the teaching that this verse alludes to the Church of Thessalonica believing that Christ had already come. They come to this conclusion based on erroneous assumptions, one of which is their handling of the words "at hand"~which means impending or soon. The problem is, this word can also be used to signify something which has come, or which is present, or, at hand in comparison to the speed of time moving so quickly. And this is why they make the error of thinking this can mean the Church thought Christ had already come. But when you read that verse with no preconceived ideas about what it means, and in the light of all other verses, we see that there is no possibility that it means that. And it is in error on multiple levels.
These verses are speaking of the misapprehension of the Church as they thought Christ would be returning soon that they would be gathered together to meet Him. The same righteous apprehension that we see every single prophet or righteous man in the old testament have at the presence of God. It is normal apprehension to know you'll be standing in the very Presence of God soon. It is the reverent fear of God.
The overview of verses one and two are that there was a misapprehension in the Church where they thought the Lord's second coming was at hand, and God inspires Paul to write a letter to remove their misapprehension on the subject.
Yes, I am in agreement with most of what is said as it follows what I have read that some in Thessalonica were deliberately misleading the new believers, even to the point of false teachers forging letters to make them look as if they had come from Paul. (If verse by verse continues we will see Paul's concern and addressing this in 2 Thes 3:17 ... but I am getting ahead of things...so sorry)
So he felt it incumbent to write the 2nd letter ( within months of the first ) and it is also note worthy to know that the time of this letter is around 51AD.As you continue your explanation by verse everyone should keep that in mind.
To RB and Rella,
As Jarrod has mentioned before, the words "AT HAND" do NOT mean "soon". They mean that something is presently in place. This applied to Paul explaining to the Thessalonians that the Day of the Lord was NOT "at hand" (or presently occurring for them) until the Man of Lawlessness was manifested. They were not to believe anyone telling them that the Day of the Lord was PRESENTLY HAPPENING among them until an "apostasia" had happened and that Man of Lawlessness had come first, which as of 2 Thessalonians' composition around AD 51, had not yet happened. This does not refute an AD 66 coming of the Man of Lawlessness and an "apostasia" of a national rebellion breaking out under the Zealots, nor does it refute an AD 70 coming of Christ.
We have plenty of examples of what "at hand" means in context. Christ in Mark 14:42-43 told the disciples in the Garden of Gethsemane that "he that betrayeth me is AT HAND. And IMMEDIATELY, while he yet spake, cometh Judas, one of the twelve..." Nothing about this means "soon". It meant a situation presently in place.
Another example is in Jeremiah 23:23 with God questioning his people through Jeremiah saying, "Am I a God AT HAND, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off?" God is not only presently near, and observing events, but He will also be present during distant events or distant locations also.
: 3 Resurrections Thu Jan 27, 2022 - 08:51:28
To RB and Rella,
As Jarrod has mentioned before, the words "AT HAND" do NOT mean "soon". They mean that something is presently in place. This applied to Paul explaining to the Thessalonians that the Day of the Lord was NOT "at hand" (or presently occurring for them) until the Man of Lawlessness was manifested. They were not to believe anyone telling them that the Day of the Lord was PRESENTLY HAPPENING among them until an "apostasia" had happened and that Man of Lawlessness had come first, which as of 2 Thessalonians' composition around AD 51, had not yet happened. This does not refute an AD 66 coming of the Man of Lawlessness and an "apostasia" of a national rebellion breaking out under the Zealots, nor does it refute an AD 70 coming of Christ.
Exactly what I have said from day one. Something presently in place.
You are the one who consistently pulls the "soon" card emphasize your beliefs.
: 3 Resurrections Thu Jan 27, 2022 - 08:51:28
To RB and Rella,
As Jarrod has mentioned before, the words "AT HAND" do NOT mean "soon". They mean that something is presently in place. This applied to Paul explaining to the Thessalonians that the Day of the Lord was NOT "at hand" (or presently occurring for them) until the Man of Lawlessness was manifested. They were not to believe anyone telling them that the Day of the Lord was PRESENTLY HAPPENING among them until an "apostasia" had happened and that Man of Lawlessness had come first, which as of 2 Thessalonians' composition around AD 51, had not yet happened. This does not refute an AD 66 coming of the Man of Lawlessness and an "apostasia" of a national rebellion breaking out under the Zealots, nor does it refute an AD 70 coming of Christ.
We have plenty of examples of what "at hand" means in context. Christ in Mark 14:42-43 told the disciples in the Garden of Gethsemane that "he that betrayeth me is AT HAND. And
IMMEDIATELY, while he yet spake, cometh Judas, one of the twelve..." Nothing about this means "soon". It meant a situation presently in place.
This is correct for the New Testament. The Greek translated "at hand" literally means "has arrived."
: 3 Resurrections Thu Jan 27, 2022 - 08:51:28
Another example is in Jeremiah 23:23 with God questioning his people through Jeremiah saying, "Am I a God AT HAND, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off?" God is not only presently near, and observing events, but He will also be present during distant events or distant locations also.
This is from the Old Testament. "At hand" here is translated from Hebrew; not Greek, and the word usage is not consistent between the two Testaments.
Hi Jarrod,
Both you and I acknowledge that word derivations and usage are different between the two Testaments, but I included this OT example for RB, simply because the KJV he prefers uses the very same phrase in both places. The interpreted sense is the same meaning. And as you know, there are plenty more scripture examples of "at hand" meaning "has arrived" that I could have mentioned. But I'm posting hurriedly, because I am behind schedule in the workroom.
For Rella,
Please don't confuse the "at hand" phrase with the two other different time-relevant terms that are scattered throughout the NT. I believe there have been posts before that commented on the Greek "tachei" (meaning shortly or quickly), "mello" (meaning about to do something), and "engus" (meaning presently at hand in time or place). It is the "mello" term and its derivatives that indicate something happening "soon". And there are plenty of these "mello" examples related to Christ's second coming and a resurrection in that first-century generation. This is not a "card" I am pulling out. The words are there in the Greek text, and the language speaks for itself. It is clearly defined usage of language terms, and they are not of my invention.
: 3 Resurrections Thu Jan 27, 2022 - 08:51:28As Jarrod has mentioned before, the words "AT HAND" do NOT mean "soon". They mean that something is presently in place.
agreed
: 3 Resurrections Reply #165 on: Yesterday at 08:51:28This applied to Paul explaining to the Thessalonians that the Day of the Lord was NOT "at hand" (or presently occurring for them) until the Man of Lawlessness was manifested.
Not quite true, enough to miss lead a person searching for truth.
Briefly, for now, I will cover verse three next in-depth where we shall see the truth of what you saying.
The man of sin, or, the abomination of desolation (one and the same) spoken of by both Daniel and Christ, will be manifest
first before the coming of Jesus Christ, yet the
full manifestation of the man of sin will come to its apex and THEN Christ will come~that
secret time period is hidden from, know only by the Godhead, not even angels know. That's that period of time between 1290 and 1335.
: DANIEL THE PROPHETDaniel 12:11,12~"And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
OR,
: JESUS CHRISTMatthew 24:13~"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."
That is the period of time of the great tribulation period spoken of in Matthew 24 that is totally spiritual in nature. Selah
Take the time to go here and look at the chart of
reply #9 http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/robycop3~who-is-the-antichrist/msg1055170346/#msg1055170346 Also
Reply #22:
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/preterist-forum/shamed/msg1055164753/#msg1055164753
VERSE THREE of 2nd Thessalonians 2"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition."
When speaking of "that day", Paul gave the very same warning that the Master of all teachers gave concerning the very same subject~the day of Christ's coming to gather together the church unto himself, of both OT and NT saints.
Paul said:
"Let no man deceive you by any means"~Christ said this
before he began his last lengthly discourse:
: THE MASTERMatthew 24:4,5~"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."
In Paul's and John's day there were
many antichrist (man of sin/abomination of desolation all three one and the same):
: John 1st John 2:18~"Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."
In the latter days of the last times (no more dispensations to follow) false prophets shall be
greatly multiple, more than anytime in this world's history~that is the very reason believers
must take heed that no man deceives us by
any means....... those days will be an exhibition of so-called miracles and signs and wonders the which, if it were possible, could deceive the very elect, but thanks be unto God~ they will be protected by the seal of God upon them, or else they would be deceived in the days leading up to Christ's second coming.
"for that day shall not come"~The
only day under consideration is clear~
the day of Crist's second coming and "our gathering" together unto him.
Paul said that day
shall not come......." except " some important pieces of the true prophecy Bible puzzle must occur
first before Jesus' second coming and before we can see the complete picture of the spiritual puzzle
of God's timeline on Jesus Christ's second coming.
"except there come a falling away first"~Obviously there were those in Thessalonica who were prophesying to the Church that the DAY OF THE LORD (His coming presence) was imminent. But Paul is telling them that this is not so. And he instructs them that they not be 'deceived' by these false prophets. He declares that the Lord's coming was not at hand because there has to first come a falling away from the faith by the Church.
Paul is prophesying that the professing Church (which is the visible Holy Temple of God) will separate themselves from God by forsaking His laws and doing whatever seems right in their own eyes. Being seduced by deceivers (verse 10), these people are committing 'spiritual fornication' or harlotry against God. This is manifested by their having "another" to rule over the Church (verse 4). The term God uses for man forsaking Him to serve a false god is "Abomination"~that He will make desolate in His own time. Serving other gods in the Holy Temple of God is an abomination that will leave the congregation desolate. The same as it did Israel, the Old Testament congregation of God~history shall repeat itself with the Gentiles following Israel of old.
In regards to this Abomination of Desolation, there is a school of thought that this actually refers to A.D. 70, but the literal earthly Temple in A.D. 70 was neither of God, nor was it Holy that it could fall from that plane to abomination. On the contrary, it was already the fallen Temple of those who rejected Christ. It could not have been God's Holy Temple
at that time. This temple made with hands fell
at the Cross and ceased to be a representation of Christ (who fulfilled it). And the 'building again' of the Holy Temple was
in Christ. He was made the Chief corner stone of that rebuilding. The New Testament congregations (Churches)
are now the Holy Temple of God, built upon that solid foundation.
Thus it is in this New Testament representation of the Holy Temple of God where people will separate themselves from the law of Christ. And such a falling away from the faith can only occur
at the loosing of Satan, who was bound at the cross. And that most certainly did not occur in A.D. 70 in a Jewish Temple which had long ago ceased to be the Holy Temple of God. This departing or forsaking the true God at the revealing of Satan, is because the Churches will be led of their own lusts and deceived of the devil, that they won't recognize they are serving this false god. That indeed is the "nature" of his deception. Remember Jesus said:
: JESUS CHRISTMatthew 24:5~"For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
I was listening to last night "The Voice of Victory" Kenneth Copeland's network whose slogan is
"Jesus is Lord" and guess what HE IS, just like Christ said~shall come in my name saying I am Christ, and Jesus IS the Christ~yet they deny him in doctrines and deeds! Their god is $$$$$$. if you look at their ministry it is a WONDER and almost a miracle that these men like Copeland, Swaggart, Oral Robert, and many, many thousand more have built for themselves a small little enterprise of wealth with schools, hospitals, private jets, and the most expensive cars, and houses, clothing, etc., etc.!
1st Timothy 4:1~"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and Doctrines of Devils;
Does the Spirit speak this expressly to you? Because it speaks it expressly to me! It spoke it expressly to the Apostle Paul who penned it. It says that in the latter times there was going to be those who are seduced by evil spirits and doctrines of devils, who would depart from the faith. Of course, this is in perfect agreement with 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2~ (also see: 2nd Timothy 3:4-5) of Satan through his ministers by false doctrines and miraculous lies (2nd Thessalonians 2:9), that there come a falling away or departing from the faith (apostasy). 1st Timothy 4 says this would happen at the latter times, just as 2nd Thessalonians 2 says it happens just before the coming of the Lord and our gathering together unto Him. It all fits perfectly and consistently because it's the unadulterated Word of God. Compare scripture with scripture and the picture of the end-time events are made manifest.
There are those who insist that 2nd Thessalonians 2 speaks about a time in the past, and not the second coming of the Lord when we will be gathering together to meet Him. In the face of what God's Word clearly says, can we dare depend on ourselves for truth? This type of error is exactly why the unfaithful Church is deceived at this appointed time. As verse 10 of 2nd Thessalonians tells us, they were deceived because they would not receive the love of truth that they might be saved, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. Their pleasure is in doing what is right in their own eyes, and not what is the law of God. That's the lusts of unrighteousness. Their pleasure is from thinking highly of themselves, and cleverly coming up with new ways to wrest (twist) scripture so that it 'appears' to agree with any doctrines they can dream up. This is the pleasure in unrighteousness that is the reason they are deceived. It was by their own stubbornness and pride in rejecting God's Word of Truth. And this unrighteousness gives place to the man of sin Because of his lack of love for God's laws, he brings about this apostasy, and Satan is uncovered or revealed.
that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition~Ill come back and finish verse three shortly keep from this being too long.
2nd Thessalonians 2:3~Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that Man of Sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Many Theologians have privately interpreted this man of sin to be everything from The Pope, Hitler, Stalin, to a new born devil man himself. It makes for entertaining movie fodder, and for intriguing stories around the campfire, but as far as Biblical Theology, it's all worth nothing. There is a better way to determine who this passage is referring to.
How about we let the scriptures themselves tell us. It is a man who refuses to be subject to the laws of God! This is the definition of the lawless man. He is a transgressor of the laws of God.
It seems clear to me and should to every reader that these verses (3-8) are not referring to one particular man,
but to man, "in particular", Man who being led by the spirit of Satan, forsakes the Lord to transgress the law of God in the Holy Temple. This is the prophecy of the time preceding the second advent of the Lord, when man refuses to be subject to the authority of God's Law, and will instead exalt
"himself" to rule in God's Holy Temple. In other words, forsake the law of God for his own precepts and rules and authority. A time when iniquity will abound as it ushers in the return of the Lord. Matthew 24 speaks of this time as one of "Great tribulation" for believers. This would follow, for the believers are those who will "Keep" the Law of God faithfully, and so will be persecuted by the man of lawlessness.
: JESUS CHRISTMatthew 24:12~"And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold".
Man of sin is a collective noun~meaning ALL who serve their own lust instead of submitting God's word. Let me break it down this way:
MAN of sin~man
OF SIN...it is ALL men who serve their own lust other than submitting to the word of God.
Man of war is not a single person who goes to war, but ALL men who go forth in combat with other soldiers. Man of God is not s single person who serves God and does his will~but ALL who are called of God and are faithful in that calling. The man of sin is also called the son of perdition for that is his fate in serving his own lust~eternal destruction in the lake of fire.
This is a time when the transgression of Abomination occurs and many of the Church are deceived by false prophets ruled by Satan. Man of sin/lawlessness who sits to rule in the Holy Temple of God (Church) as if he was God. Iniquity shall "abound", and the love of God shall grow cold. In fact, right here in 2nd Thessalonians 2:6-8 it tells us this iniquity was being restrained or held down (when the text was written) until a time when He who restrains it is taken out of the midst. In other words, iniquity (Lawlessness, Sin, Wickedness, Transgression) was being held down, but the prophecy was that at some time in the future (spoken of as when he who restrains it would be taken out of the midst) this iniquity would be loosed and then the lawless man revealed. Many will be deceived by this iniquity and it gives the reason as, "Because they refused to receive the love of truth! -2nd Thessalonians 2:10"~ They don't want to be obedient to the law of God, therefore they will not receive God's word and are deceived by the words of man (lawless man) in the Holy Temple of God. Man saying God declares you can divorce. Man saying God declares Women can rule and have authority over men in the Churches. Man saying that God declares Homosexuality is not an abomination. Man saying God declares abortion is not murder, etc., etc. This is man of sin/lawlessness who is ruling as God in the Holy Temple. Remember, after the cross, the Holy Temple was no longer a building in Jerusalem. It is either one of three things.
#1.The Lord Jesus Christ
#2.The Body of a believer
#3.The Church.
Those are the only three things possible after the cross to be prophesied as the Holy Temple of God. You cannot have a "shadow" which has been fulfilled by Christ, returning as the Holy Temple again. Therefore, the building in Jerusalem no longer qualified to be prophesied as the Holy Temple of God after the cross. It is a shadow that was fulfilled.
So since abomination cannot stand in Christ, nor in the body of a believer where Christ dwells and will never leave nor forsake them,
it can only stand in the churches. You see the Holy Temple is built not only with Gold, silver, and precious stones, but also with wood, hay and stubble. i.e., all in the Churches are not Saved.
1st Corinthians 3:10~"According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is."
Jesus is that Cornerstone of this holy temple and we are built upon Him, but all are not precious building material. These who are wood, hay, and stubble are unfaithful in the Church. Because of these, near the second advent, abomination will stand in the Holy Temple as the Churches fall away.
It is clear this coming time when iniquity will abound (come to the full or multiply), coincides with Satan being loosed (Revelation 20). Man, being deceived by the spirit of antichrist coming with all power, and signs and Lying wonders, will think to change times and laws and rule as if he were God in the Temple. As Judas was one of the 12, yet betrayed our Lord, so many false prophets and false teachers will deceive many, and many will betray Christ in the Church. When man sets himself up as the authority in the church, the law replacing God's Word,
this is abomination. We have a false Christ, and this abomination leads to it's Desolation.
The "mystery of inquity" was already at work at the time Paul was writing this (2nd Thessalonians 2:7),
but it was being restrained that it could not come to the full until it's time. Just as we can read the Antichrist was already in the world at the time of Paul and John (1st John 2:18), but would also come in the future in its FULNESS. It all refers to the Spirit of Satan who indwells "man" and deceives him and causes him to fall away from the law of God. Since the cross, this (The Great Tribulation period) has not been allowed to occur, for Christ restrains it as He was building His Church. But near the return of the Lord (verse 1-4) then this Apostasy must take place. As it is written, Judgment must begin at the House of God. Christ Restrained it by the Cross. Bound Satan! Verse seven refers to that, saying it would continue to be restrained until He be taken out of the midst. When a church (The Holy Temple of God) falls away from the faith, it has no Spirit of God in the midst (i.e., where two or three are gathered together in My name, there am I in the midst~Matthew 18:20). When the Spirit is no more in the midst of a Church, iniquity abounds. Apostasy sets in and
man rules in the place of God by following his own laws instead of God's. This is what 2nd Thessalonians 2 speaks about.
Simply put,
the man of sin is the man of sin. Not an individual, but man of sin. Just as I would say the man of lawfulness or faithfulness worships in the Temple. It's not a reference to one single man, but to the man who is faithful or follows the laws of God. Likewise, the man of sin/lawlessness is just the opposite! Any betrayer of Christ, just as Judas was deceived of Satan to betray Christ.
Any false teachers that seek to establish themselves as authority "over" the teaching of God, abandoning His Word for their own private interpretations, this is the man of sin/lawlessness. We are seeing this falling away right now in the Churches. There are many Churches today ruled by the man of lawlessness instead of God.
Not a few, many! These are those who make up their own rules and laws to govern themselves, rather than humbly receive God's laws. And can the Coming of the lord be far off? even so, Come Lord Jesus!
: 3 Resurrections Thu Jan 27, 2022 - 11:44:25
For Rella,
Please don't confuse the "at hand" phrase with the two other different time-relevant terms that are scattered throughout the NT. I believe there have been posts before that commented on the Greek "tachei" (meaning shortly or quickly), "mello" (meaning about to do something), and "engus" (meaning presently at hand in time or place). It is the "mello" term and its derivatives that indicate something happening "soon". And there are plenty of these "mello" examples related to Christ's second coming and a resurrection in that first-century generation. This is not a "card" I am pulling out. The words are there in the Greek text, and the language speaks for itself. It is clearly defined usage of language terms, and they are not of my invention.
NO I am not confusing anything,
I am well aware what Greek verses use mello and its varients.
I have 2 definitions on the laptops...
Definition:
to be about
to be on the point of doing or suffering something
to intend, have in mind, think to
The NAS new Greek Lexicon word study lists the assortment of translations to be about 30, as follows.
almost 1, am about 2, certainly 1, come 12, delay 1, future 1, going 19, intend 1, intending 8, later 1, must 1, next* 1, point 1, propose 1, ready 1, things to come 3, will 6, will certainly 1, would 3, would live...thereafter 1, would certainly 1
Further are the books and number of times listed
Matthew9 ... Mark2 ... Luke12 .... John9 ..... Acts31 .... Romans4.... 1 Corinthians1 .... Galatians1 ... Ephesians1 .... Colossians1 ... 1 Thessalonians1 ... 1 Timothy3 .... Hebrews8 ... 2 Peter2 and not least Revelation9 ... A t otal of 94
And a further definition
Definition
to be about
to be on the point of doing or suffering something
to intend, have in mind, think to
King James has the word usage 110 times.
shall 25, should 20, would 9, to come 9, will 7, things to come 4, not translated 3, miscellaneous 33
But that is not what this thread is about and we should get back OT and address these another time.
Within this thread you have been concentrating on Rev 12:12 and Rev 20:3 and 7 and excluding 4-6
: 3 Resurrections Sat Jan 01, 2022 - 10:47:20
Compare this loosing of Satan in Revelation 20:3 and 7 to what John wrote elsewhere about Satan's loosing on earth. He claimed in Revelation 12:12 that Satan had already come down to the earth with great anger, knowing that his "SHORT TIME" of operating in this world would not last for long. If John said that Satan was ALREADY loosed into the world for that same "SHORT TIME", (the "LITTLE SEASON" at the millennium's end), then this tells us that the millennium was already over and done with by the time John was writing Revelation.
Rev 12:12 in the Greek interlinear states
Because of this rejoice, the heavens and those in them camping. Woe to those inhabiting the earth and the sea, because he has come down the Devil to you having wrath great, knowing that a short ( oligon ) time (kairon) he has.
Before we get to Rev 20:3 we need to start with Rev 20:1
Again I am using KJV ONLY ( my Greek interlinear) because there are those who will not read any other.
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
NOTE: this was after Satan was cast out of heaven in Rev 12;12 for Rev 12:9 tells us.... 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
NOTE: John saw an angel come down from heaven. That would be down to earth. And this angel brought with him the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
This was because Satan was no longer in heaven at this point.
vs 3 3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Interlinear translation of vs 3:
And he cast him into the abyss, and shut him in, and sealed over him,
NOTE: Satan was not free to roam the earth, even with limited powers.
cont.
that he could not deceive the nations anymore until are ended the thousand years. And after these things it is necessary for him to be loosed for a little (mikron) time
Rev 20:7
KJ And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Interlinear
And whenever may end the 1000 years, ..(YES>>> IT SAYS WHENEVER) ... will be loosed the Satan out of the prison of him,
There is nowhere in the verses of the chapters that you have selected that use mello or any derivative.
But your selection of verses sure has firmed up in my mine that the 1000 years did not and could not have
ended with the Resurrections and Ascension.
Thank you ::tippinghat::
[/size]
The overview of verse three is that it is an exhortation to
the Church that they not be deceived by any man that the coming of Christ is at hand. It is an illustration that they shouldn't expect Christ's coming, because there were
certain signs or events which have to take place first. Namely,
a great falling away or apostasy in the Church, and the removal of the restraint which held down the man of sin (as we'll see later). God declares that this power of Satan to rule in the Holy Temple, from a first-century vantage point,
was yet to be "revealed" . This is confirmation that the end time forsaking of God (as prophesied by both Daniel and Christ) is a sign that must first take place before any future coming presence of Christ where every eye shall behold him. The Apostle Paul is correcting the false impression that the Thessalonians had in believing that the coming of Christ was imminent. Paul had told them of these signs previously while with them (verse 5), but now he writes to more fully expound upon these end-time events.
I'll start verse four and make two posts out of that verse.
2nd Thessalonians 2:4~"Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he, as god sitteth in the Temple of God, shewing himself that he is god."
This man of sin (transgressor of God's laws and doctrines) has been pondered, interpreted, and alleged to be every character from Judas Iscariot, Nero, the Pope, Mussolini, Napoleon, Adolf Hitler and a few others we could add. But speculations and guesswork are not the correct methods of sound hermeneutics. Carefully considering what the scriptures say is paramount to our understanding of them. First of all, we know by the text exactly in what time period this will take place. Its timeline is
just before the coming of the Lord, and our gathering together to meet Him (-verse 1). Second, we know this evil will be taking place in the Holy Temple of God and
from there through the whole world (-verse 4). And so the logical question is, who is the lawless man who will sit to rule in the Holy Temple of God at this time, and how can that be? The simple answer is, "he is exactly what the text says he is." In other words,
he is the "man of sin". This speaks of the man who transgresses the laws and doctrines of God. Sin is the transgression of the law of God. And not the 10 commandments only, but any and all of what God commands and teaches in His Holy word.
That in a nutshell is the biblical definition of sin. The point here is that, the man of transgressions in the Holy Temple is nothing more than what that passage says he is. He is the man that transgresses the law and teaches false doctrines, and who takes a seat
to rule in God's Holy Temple. Any man who is deceived by Satan to forsake God's laws/doctrines and sit to rule himself in God's Temple,
is the man of sin. Just as man is doing in the Churches today, ruling as if they are God, through the spirit of Satan.
This is an Abomination in God's sight. This prophesied man is not a single supernatural anti-Christ in human form. He is not Satan incarnate the super being, and he is not the Pope, nor
any man in particular. He is the man of sin, period. In other words, lawless man as he forsakes God's laws and his truths, to be a law in and of himself and rule in the House of the Lord (Church) where God alone should rule. He is governing by his own rules and teachings and by what
seems right in his own eyes. From the very beginning, in the garden of Eden, man has sought to be in a position equal with God. In his arrogance, m
an often thinks that it is his own 'right' to decide what is good and evil. He doesn't want God's will to be done, he wants his own will done in God's name. And so he forsakes the word of God for humanistic reasoning, thus becoming the lawless man, or the man of sin.
Those who think that Satan will come to earth as one man, haven't really read scripture very carefully. God's Word has never said that. Satan is a spirit, not a man. He has been around a long time and doesn't need to indwell 'one man' to work his evil in the world. He works his evil by dwelling in many men as the spirit of disobedience (Ephesians 2:2), making an army of lawless men to war against the Saints. He makes his abode with, and deceives any unsaved man. The spirit of Antichrist proper is Satan, but the working of antichrist is manifest in the heresy (1st John 2:18-22) of men who serve him.
: THE HOLY GHOSTRomans 6:16~ "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"
Men are servants to him whose works they do, and to whose spirit they obey. in other words, the spirit of Satan rules in the Holy Temple through sinful men. The fact is, if you have a man who has been deceived of Satan, ruling a Church, then you have the man of sin/lawlessness ruling that Temple. In actuality, we don't have to look any further than the very words there in the verse to discover who it is. Many of today's Theologians are looking for intricate and politically complex interpretations, and so the more curious and intriguing the interpretation, the better. But the truth is much more studied and Biblical.
It is the man ...of sin. Anyone whom Satan uses to attack the Church from within, is a son of perdition, a child of the devil, and the man of lawlessness in the temple. Likewise, anyone whom God uses as a messenger of the gospel is a Son of God, and a Man of Lawfulness in the temple. Two distinct spirits warring for the souls of men. Believers with the Spirit of Christ, and unbelievers with the spirit of Antichrist. One man sinless, and another man of sin. There is nothing really difficult in comprehending this Biblical principle. That's why God tells us to test the spirits whether they be of God or of antichrist (1st John 4:1-3). What spirit we have, determines if we are the man of sin or lawlessness, or the man of lawfulness, who in Christ is without sin.
2nd Peter 3:16~"And also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the scriptures, unto their own destruction."
Here God is telling us there are things in the scriptures that are hard to be understood, and that there are some who call themselves Christian that are unlearned in the scripture, and so they twist these scriptures to get make them appear to mean whatever they want. They wrest these things "to their own ruin or destruction".
Again, Jesus says in
Matthew 7:13~ " ..broad is the way that leadeth unto destruction."
Those on the broad way are those who are lawless, and those on the narrow way are those who obey the law of God.
The narrow way is the way of lawfulness, the broad the way of destruction. One a child of perdition and one a child of God. 2nd Peter 2:1 says the wicked bring in destroying, or damnable heresies into the Church. These are the lawless of the Church, sons or children of perdition or ruin who forsake God's word for Heresy. And so this should give us a better Biblical guide to what is in view in 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2. The son of perdition is the son of destruction, or literally the son of total ruin and wasting because he is a man of sin. The children of the devil or the children of God. One the lawful man, the other the lawless man. One the man which cannot sin, the other the man of sin.
Ultimately Satan is the great destroyer that brings to ruin. He is the King of destruction [apollyon] (Revelation 9:11) and those who are of Satan are sons of destruction. They destroy the laws/truths of God in the Holy Place, while the sons of God keep the laws of God faithfully (1st John 2:3-5). The Bible, being its own interpreter, is where we will find the interpretations of these scriptures. We won't find them in the world, or in the fanciful imaginations of man.
Moreover, when we search the scriptures, we find that there is only one other place in the entire Bible where the exact phrase 'son of perdition' is mentioned. Not coincidentally, that man was a member of the early church. And he also betrayed the cause of Christ from within, as he came under the power and deception of Satan. This was Judas Iscariot. His very name implies part of the Church. Judas wasn't Satan incarnate, he wasn't the pope, he wasn't a body politic, he was simply a man of lawlessness indwelt by Satan. He was just like so many other men who are deceived and made slaves to do his bidding. Jesus says,
John 17:12~ "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Thy Name: those that thou gavest Me I have kept, and none of them is Lost, but the Son of Perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."
Fulfilled that the betrayer is one of His own congregation, not the infidels or the nations, but the congregation.
: DAVID Psalms 41:9~"Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me."
Judas, the thief, is a
representation of the unfaithful in the Church who make the house of God, a den of thieves and robbers, buyers and sellers. Note that he was a son of perdition before we read Satan entered him. Therefore was he always lost from among the brethren. Can we look at Judas and claim he was a supernatural anti-Christ? He was a anti-christ to be sure, but he didn't control world economics,
he controlled the Church purse. He was a Church thief, not a world leader. He went to the lawless Priests and Leaders of the Congregation to betray Christ, not to the King. And it should not escape our consideration that he betrayed Christ 'deceitfully' with a kiss, not by openly condemning Him. Likewise will the body of Christ be betrayed. With a Kiss by the thieves, the buyers and sellers in the Holy Temple of God who make merchandise of the Lord's house. This is the Character of the son of ruin or perdition. That verse in the book of John about Judas is the only other place where the phrase 'son of perdition' is mentioned in scripture, and it illustrates he is one of us, whose end is perdition or destruction. Speaking of Him, we read in the Book of Acts, of the fulfillment of scripture.
: LUKEActs 1:20~"For it is written in the book of Psalms, let his habitation be DESOLATE, and no man dwell therein: and his office let another take."
Judas's house, the house of those he conspired against Jesus with, was indeed left desolate (Luke 13:35). His office another did take because he was unworthy to hold it (Acts 1:25). This is the fate of the son of perdition, the man of sin. When Satan entered into Judas (Luke 22:3) he sought to betray Christ because he was brought under the control of Satan. He was in servitude to him. Remember what Jesus said to some of the Old Testament Congregation?
: JESUS CHRISTJohn 8:44~"Ye are of your Father the Devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
Having the Devil as their father means that they are his sons or offspring. They were sons of perdition because their father was Satan, and the lusts of their father they would do. He was the King of Destruction (Apollyon~Revelation 9:11) and these would not receive the law of truth Jesus brought because there was no truth in their father, the Devil. Thus they would do the lusts of their father. In harmony with this, 2nd Thessalonians 2:10 says that those at this coming time of apostasy will be deceived because they, "Received not the love of truth." Again, because Satan is the 'Father' of lies, and because they are the son of perdition, the truth they will not believe, but they will believe the lies of their father. They are the man of sin because they won't listen to the law of God, but they will listen to lawlessness. And in doing so, they place themselves (man) as ruler in the Temple "as if" they are God themselves.
Jesus told Peter, "get thee behind me Satan."
Jesus wasn't saying Peter was a son of perdition, but He was illustrating those who are of Satan take pleasure or savor these same things. Look carefully at Christ's reason for calling Peter, Satan.
Matthew 16:23~"But He turned, and said unto Peter, get thee behind Me, Satan: thou art an offence unto Me: because thou savorest Not the things that be of God, but those that be of Men."
We will finish verse four later today, or in the morning, the Lord willing.
Hi Rella,
You have stated that nowhere in Revelation 12:12 and 20:3 and 7 is the word "mello" used. Of course not, because the actions of those verses were all performed in the past from John's perspective. The thousand years ending and Satan's loosing was certainly not something that was "about to happen" in John's days. This only proves my point; that the thousand year's ending and Satan's being loosed was a PAST event from the time John was writing.
John was also told to write about what he had seen in the past, as well as presently occurring events, and things which were about to happen in his near future (Revelation 1:19). The thousand years falls into the category of PAST things which John had seen.
My comment did not imply that you don't know what the word "mello" means. I was only stating that the "at hand" term in the Greek which we were discussing was not using the "mello" term. You were the one who brought up the point in your reply that you think I pull the "soon" card consistently. That "mello" term wasn't even the Greek word under discussion at the time. We were discussing the "engus" (presently at hand) term and its use in 2 Thessalonians 2:2.
You have also said that I am excluding Revelation 20:4-6. No, I believe you and I have already exchanged what I think about the interpretation of Revelation 20:4-6. But I will repeat it again if necessary.
And you are still laboring under the impression that the "abyss" is an actual physical location somewhere in the universe. It's not. The "abyss" is a STATUS which Christ also experienced at His death, as in Romans 10:7. The "abyss" is no more a physical location than the "keys of death and hell" in the vision were literal metal objects which can open and shut a physical door behind which all the dead are restrained. The "seal" and the "chain" put on Satan are no more a physical thing than is the seal of God in the forehead of the believers. You and I do not have a tattoo mark imprinted on our forehead designating us as children of God. Being "sealed" by the Holy Spirit is to be put in a reserved STATUS as children of God. The particular seal put upon Satan kept him in that reserved STATUS of not being able to deceive until the thousand years expired at Christ's ascension.
That reserved status for Satan by being sealed in the abyss did not say anything about restricting his ability to move around on earth or in heaven. It merely restricted Satan's ability to deceive. You are wanting the chain and the abyss to represent more than the scripture says they do.
VERSE FOUR CONTINUATION.....Did not want to make verse four into another post, so bear with us a little and read it carefully. Matthew 16:23~But He turned, and said unto Peter, get thee behind Me, Satan: thou art an offence unto Me: because thou savorest Not the things that be of God, but those that be of Men.""
Those of Satan are not interested in seeing God's will be done, or following God's Word. They are interested in man's lust/will and man's word.
The Things that be of God they do not Love. If you quote scripture to them, they generally look at you like you are from another planet to believe such things. ..Why? Because they don't like what God says, they don't want to believe He means it, and they don't want to do what is written as law
for them. In the Biblical vernacular, they have forsaken the Word of God, and want to hear smooth things, easy to swallow things, things that tickle the ears~they want to be religious, but in their own way and timing and around their own lust. Tell them smooth things or deceitful things and this they will receive. Just as Judas believed not the truth but listened to man's lies and briberies, because he loved not the things of God but had pleasure in unrighteousness. And so he betrayed our Lord for a stack of coins. And likewise, these spoken of in 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2
will do the same.
Have you ever wondered why the time of the cross so closely parallels the time of the end, and the second coming, in almost every aspect? It is because Christ so magnificently identifies 'Himself' with the Church. So much so that it is pictured as the body, and He the Head. This is the marvelous picture of the great Salvation plan God has from the beginning placed in His book. Just as the Holy Temple (Christ) was destroyed, betrayed by one of those claiming to be of Him, so the Holy Temple (The Church) will be destroyed near His second coming
by the same method. Those who are a son of perdition, claiming to be a part of the body, but who in reality are wolves in sheep's clothing. Those who are of Satan and "opposing" everything that is of God. When the Church leaders serve man instead of God, they are the man of sin ruling in the Temple.
2nd Thessalonians Chapter 2 is just another picture of the abomination that God will make desolate standing in The Holy Temple of God of the NT The same which has been spoken about throughout scripture. It is the fulfillment of Daniel and Matthew chapter 24 and other books and chapters that talk about this same end-time event, a precursor of the return of the Lord.
Matthew 24:14~"And this gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. When ye Therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the Holy place, whoso readeth, let him understand: then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains."
This is not A.D. 70, that has to be
forced into the scriptures~ it is at the end of the world. If we study God's Word carefully then we can come to
no other conclusion. Look first at the Context of the verses. It says the gospel will be preached to all the world, and "then" the end will come. Therefore, when ye see the abomination stand in the Holy place, then flee to the mountains. The whole chapter
in context is about end time events. Christ was asked when would the Temple be destroyed (verse 3), and what are the signs of
His coming and the end of the world? And Christ proceeds to answer the questions. He tells them the signs that will alert them that His return is nigh, (false Christs, prophets, famine, Fig Tree and ALL trees budding, etc.) and says "Therefore", when you see the abomination stand in the Holy place, flee to the Mountain.
We can't ignore the fact that verse 14 is talking about the end of the world, and then verse 15 says therefore when you see the abomination in the temple, flee. By the use of the word "therefore"~ God has equated the time when iniquity abounds, love runs cold, false Christ arise, and the time of the end (verse 14), with the abomination that makes desolate (verse 15).
To ignore that fact that the two verses go together would be disjointed and tortuous of scripture.For example, if I explained in several verses how, "It will be -20 degrees outside, how things will freeze, etc.," and in the next verse said, "therefore, when you go outside, you must wear a heavy coat," no one would think to understand it anyway but the way it is written. But because many Christians have been taught certain traditions,
they ignore both context and flow of Matthew 24 in order to hold on to whatever error they have been taught. There is no mistaking that Christ is telling us when the Holy Temple of God would be brought to desolation. It will be near the end of the world when abomination stands in it.
Not a Non-Holy Temple that was ruined in A.D. 70 (since the A.D. 70 temple was not a sacred Temple of God to qualify for these Prophesies of having abomination stand in what is Holy). Christ was the Fulfillment (completion) of the Holy Temple in Jerusalem (the type) and the only Holy Temple after the cross was the literal body of Christ, the body of Christ which are the believers, and the Corporate Church external Covenant representation of the body of Christ. This is easily proven, conclusively, by scripture. The prophecy of Matthew chapter 24 was addressing the end times when believers would see these signs of spiritual declension. It is further confirmed to be talking about the coming end as verse 21 continues....
: JESUS CHRISTMatthew 24:21~"for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. and except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Again, 70 A.D. doesn't qualify to be the great Tribulation period, "greater than any period ever before" or after~again, one would have to force that interpretation. No matter how much men twist, push, shove, or distort what is said,
A.D. 70 doesn't qualify~IMPOSSIBLE!. Neither were those days shortened, because if they weren't, no flesh on earth would have been saved (though just about all misinterpret the sense of saved, but that's another study for another day).
That simply didn't happen in those days. With all due respect, it's quite ludicrous and overtly self-serving to declare these pertinent passages were all fulfilled in A.D. 70. Again, notice the word 'then' indicating that these all take place at this time. This Great Tribulation is when the abomination stands in the Holy Place, and is when we reach the end of the world. For then shall be Great Tribulation which had been previously unheard of. The only way any logically thinking person could think that these refer to A.D. 70, or to two entirely separate occurrences, is
if his indoctrination in such teachings predisposes him to think that way.
The question is, why is it that people come to the conclusion that the desolation of the Holy Temple was in A.D. 70? The answer is because they are living by sight or by what seems to be, and listening to the reports of man, and not the report of the Bible. They are listening to their teachers, historians, and theorists, rather than letting the Holy Spirit be the teacher, through God's Word.
The Theory of A.D. 70 is based upon secular historical accounts, not on scripture. It relies on man's record of what happened in Jerusalem. But God does not base interpretations of His Holy Word on secular man's writings and findings. No matter how trustworthy we might think others are, we don't interpret scripture by
man's non-canonical writings. God puts the understanding of His Word
in His Word. The fact is, once examined carefully, this theory has more holes in it than Swiss Cheese. How could the Jewish Temple be the Holy Place in A.D. 70? It was neither Holy (God ripped the veil separating the Holy Place of the Temple in Jerusalem, from the top to the bottom the instant that Christ died on the cross -Matthew 27:51). That building, a shadow of the true building whose maker is God,
fell at the cross. This tearing of the veil of the Temple signified that the Holy place which was a "type" was
no longer valid in that Building made with hands. The type had passed into history because it was fulfilled in Christ. A search of the pertinent scriptures would prove that to even the novice Bible student. Nor was this Temple building any longer the Holy Temple "of God". And to say it was makes a mockery of the work and accomplishment of Christ on the Cross.
The only Holy Temple of God after the cross is either, Christ, the external Church, or the body of Believers. Nothing else after the cross qualifies as the Holy Temple of God to have further prophecy. The Old Testament Holy Temple of God had been Fulfilled and the New Holy Temple of God is in building in Christ. He is the Chief cornerstone of its building. And the veil separating the Holy Place from then on was not in a Temple made with hands in Jerusalem, but the veil to the Holy of Holiest (the Holy Place) is through His flesh (
See and read Hebrews 10:19-20 carefully). This is God's Word, not speculation. Christ Fulfilled the Temple just as he fulfilled the sacrifice. That building in Jerusalem no longer had any "prophetic value" after the cross. To say that the literal Temple in Jerusalem has more scripture to be fulfilled after the cross
is to virtually DENY Christ came as the fulfillment and completion of that Temple. Matthew chapter 24 speaks of believers fleeing from the Holy place, "therefore" it cannot be talking about the Jewish Temple after the cross.
Such an interpretation simply makes no sense, for it is disjointed. It doesn't fit. Inconsistency piled upon inconsistency.
Jesus also said not one stone would be left standing upon another (Matthew 24:2) in this Temple. He was very specific that it would be not one stone upon another. Of course, some theologians again attempt to "ignore" the fact that stones were left standing one upon another after the literal Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed. In fact, you can still find the Temple ruins in Israel with the foundation stones One upon another. Not only the Spirit of truth, but even common sense (which is NOT too common anymore) should tell us that inconsistency is the hallmark of error. Moreover, the prophecy was not only in specifics of the temple, but Christ declared that of all the buildings there, not one stone would be left standing (Mark 13:1-2). If that wasn't enough, Jesus wept over the city and said of the city that it would be laid "even with the ground" and not one stone left standing upon another (Luke 19:43-44). In all these passages, God is 'obviously' taking great pains to show that He's not just saying it's destroyed, He's being specific about the destruction. Just as obvious is that there were stones were left standing one upon another in the city after A.D. 70.
So the question arises, how do professed Christians get around these obvious contradictions to the popular A.D. 70 theory? Most will simply rationalize their inconsistencies away, declaring that, "..Jesus didn't really mean it literally, He could have been using a type of hyperbole or extravagant exaggeration." but the more they wrest the text,
the more they entangle themselves in a web. Because first they insist that when Jesus was speaking about this Temple, He was speaking about a literal temple and not spiritually of the Church. Then when it becomes obvious that many of the literal stones of the literal Temple were left standing one on another, (i.e., the prophecy doesn't fit), then they do the exact opposite and declare, on the stones part, He was talking figuratively about not one left standing one upon another.
"Inconsistency is the hallmark of error" -WiseManSay
If the Temple is literal, then the stones which Christ was very specific about, must also be Literal. And if the stones not left standing are not literal, then the Temple which they consist in cannot be Literal. But you cannot say that this is a literal Temple but when the stones fall they're not real falling stones, but an exaggeration or speaking figuratively about none left standing one upon another. You can't have it both ways where it's (in the same temple) both literal when man sees fit, and then figurative when literal doesn't fit. For then we are not conforming to what scripture says,
we're trying to make scripture conform to what we believe.
The Temple fell once at the cross, and it's rebuilding (building again) was in Christ. He was the Chief cornerstone of that building. There are stones being laid in this Temple which are Gold, Silver, and Precious. And then there are other stones which are of wood, hay, and stubble. Judgment day will reveal which is which. This is image of the Holy Temple of God which at the end of the World will have great apostasy stand in it. It's not a physical building in Jerusalem,
and it wasn't so in A.D. 70 . The Holy Temple fell once at the cross, and t
he Holy Temple which is the Church falls once near the end of the world. This is why Christ so closely identifies the Church with Himself. The Buyers and sellers were in this temple at Christ's first advent, and they will be again at His second advent.
If we forget what some Theologians say, and rely solely upon what the Bible declares, then we see that the Holy Temple (after the cross) is the Congregation of God, and the stones of The Holy Temple
are representative of professed Christians. In other words, those people of the Church are the stones. Some good and precious, and some sub-standard and worthless. Some will burn, and some will not. And this is not some theologian's interpretation, this is directly from the Word of God.
: PaulEphesians 2:20~"And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an Holy Temple in the Lord."
There it is in God's Word, for all to see. We (the Church) are the earthly representation of the Holy Temple of God (after the Cross). God said that, not Man. Man says the Holy Temple is made with hands and still consists of literal bricks and Mortar,
but God defines it differently after Christ fulfilled it. These teachers are making the exact same mistake that the Jewish people made when Jesus told them as much. When Jesus threw the Buyers and Sellers out of the Temple, the people asked for a sign showing He had authority to do these things? In reply, Jesus gave them a sign. He said, "Destroy this Temple and in 3 days I will raise it up."
Yet all the people could think about was the literal Temple that they were standing in front of which He had just thrown the buyers and Sellers out of. Their minds were on the earthly or literal bricks and Mortar Temple. But God's ways were far above man's ways, and He wasn't talking about that Temple building, He was talking about the Body of Christ.
You would have thought Christians would have learned a lesson. Because that is exactly why it is there. As a lesson to us. When the scriptures said that Elias must come first, the people were baffled, because John the Baptist wasn't Elias incarnate. But nevertheless he 'was' the fulfillment of 'that' scripture of Elijah's coming. The people just didn't understand how God uses prophecy in the spiritual sense. John the Baptist wasn't literally Elijah, but he came in the Spirit and Power of Elijah. In other words, Spiritually speaking (Luke 1:17), he was like Elijah because he had the same Spirit of witness and prophecy. Professed Christians just don't seem to learn from Biblical History. Again, we can see how the people in the time of the first advent thought that Christ came to set up an earthly Kingdom. They didn't understand that His Kingdom is a Spiritual Kingdom, and He didn't come to reign on an earthly throne, but that by his ascension to the throne, we would become kings and priests unto our God and reign on earth through Him. Setting up an earthly Kingdom is man's idea. Christ told us plainly that His kingdom was now "not" of this world, but it was already within their midst and they could not recognize this truth If we have Christ dwell within us, we are members of that Kingdom and do reign. Those worldly kingdoms of Biblical history were a 'type' (as David's) signifying a greater rule, and with His coming the types were fulfilled. Yet today, there are those who make the exact same mistake as Israel did. They tell you Christ is coming back to govern and to reign on this sin cursed earth. Just as Israel before them, these theologians are missing the point. His Kingdom is not a earthly one, it's a heavenly one. His kingdom not of this world, but in this world in the camp of the saints.
Likewise, the old Temple fell at the cross, and the 'Building Again' is in Christ. It's foundation is the Apostles, and we are built up on them.
: Peter 1st Peter 2:5~"Ye also as living Stones, are built up a spiritual house.."
That's not speculation on the stones of the Temple, or from the desks of archaeologists, or the pens of secular historians. That's not from the mouth of man, that's the Word directly from the mouth of God. When the man of lawlessness or sin takes a seat in The Temple of God, this is speaking of sinful man taking a ruling position in the Church. The Church is the Temple of God.
This is all in conjunction with the Prophecy of Revelation chapter 20. When Satan is loosed, he will go forth deceiving and bring the wicked against the camp of the saints (The only Saints in this world is the believers, the Church). He will bring them against the Holy City (The only city that is holy 'after the cross' is the Church). If you think any other city is Holy besides the City set upon a Hill that can't be hid (Matthew 5:14), you are deceiving yourself. Satan attacks the household of God by bringing deceivers into it. This is what is illustrated in chapters such as 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2, Revelation 20, and Matthew 24. It is Satan's deception that has people believing a lie. False teachers bringing false gospels are signs and lying wonders where people are not worshiping the God of the Bible, but are worshiping a false god. A god of their own construction and image. A god after the imagination of their own hearts. The God of the Bible is worshiped by keeping His commandments or laws and teaching his truths even if unpopular and hated by the masses. But these are identified or made manifest in that they don't "keep" the laws of God, or teach his truths, but are lawless and ungodly. They have become the man of sin instead of the man of God.
The overview of verse four of 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2, is that God is telling us that Satan indwells the man of sin (lawlessness), the son of perdition, just as he did with Judas, so that he will be deceived and betray Christ. Satan thus rules in the temple of God through the servitude of lawless man, and not a few by many. And by man ruling as if he is God, he exalts himself above the true ruler, thus displaying himself as being God Himself. This is the humanistic teachings of the unfaithful Church, which in essence proclaim man has the right to choose his own path, to hold to opinion and to do whatever he decides is right, regardless of what God's law actually says. i.e., manipulate God's word. But the true Saints of God will not be unequally yoked with idolatry of any kind (2nd Corinthians 6:16), and so they will come out of this Temple that has become filled with abomination, that we not be partaker with her sins. When professed Christians will not obey God's Word, the Lord speaks of this as building a house not upon Christ (The Solid Rock), but upon the shifting foundation of earth or sand. And that is precisely why the Holy Temple is brought to desolation. Because it is not built on the Solid Rock. It forsakes the word of God (Apostasy) and so falls to its own destruction.
: JESUS CHRISTLuke 6:48-49~"He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a Rock: and when the flood arose the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a Rock. BUT he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell and the ruin of that house was great."
Just as the ruin of Judas was brought to desolation (Acts 1:16-20) though he was numbered with the Apostles, so the ruin of every man who is a son of perdition and will not listen to the Word of God will be brought to desolation. Their house will be brought to desolation because their house will be a den of thieves, as Judas. It will not be the house of God, but fall headlong as the house of Satan. And great will be the ruin of that house. Such abomination is brought to desolation.
Verse five....next.
: 3 Resurrections Sun Jan 30, 2022 - 10:06:43
Hi Rella,
You have stated that nowhere in Revelation 12:12 and 20:3 and 7 is the word "mello" used. Of course not, because the actions of those verses were all performed in the past from John's perspective. The thousand years ending and Satan's loosing was certainly not something that was "about to happen" in John's days. This only proves my point; that the thousand year's ending and Satan's being loosed was a PAST event from the time John was writing.
John was also told to write about what he had seen in the past, as well as presently occurring events, and things which were about to happen in his near future (Revelation 1:19). The thousand years falls into the category of PAST things which John had seen.
My comment did not imply that you don't know what the word "mello" means. I was only stating that the "at hand" term in the Greek which we were discussing was not using the "mello" term. You were the one who brought up the point in your reply that you think I pull the "soon" card consistently. That "mello" term wasn't even the Greek word under discussion at the time. We were discussing the "engus" (presently at hand) term and its use in 2 Thessalonians 2:2.
You have also said that I am excluding Revelation 20:4-6. No, I believe you and I have already exchanged what I think about the interpretation of Revelation 20:4-6. But I will repeat it again if necessary.
And you are still laboring under the impression that the "abyss" is an actual physical location somewhere in the universe. It's not. The "abyss" is a STATUS which Christ also experienced at His death, as in Romans 10:7. The "abyss" is no more a physical location than the "keys of death and hell" in the vision were literal metal objects which can open and shut a physical door behind which all the dead are restrained. The "seal" and the "chain" put on Satan are no more a physical thing than is the seal of God in the forehead of the believers. You and I do not have a tattoo mark imprinted on our forehead designating us as children of God. Being "sealed" by the Holy Spirit is to be put in a reserved STATUS as children of God. The particular seal put upon Satan kept him in that reserved STATUS of not being able to deceive until the thousand years expired at Christ's ascension.
That reserved status for Satan by being sealed in the abyss did not say anything about restricting his ability to move around on earth or in heaven. It merely restricted Satan's ability to deceive. You are wanting the chain and the abyss to represent more than the scripture says they do.
Just a small FYI
I will be addressing this post later today or tomorrow.
I had a comprehensive response that I was rereading for spelling and grammar when I had to be out of the house.
When I came back all my hours of work have gone poof ::headscratch:: so I will need time to reconstruct things.
I'll be back
: 3 Resurrections Sun Jan 30, 2022 - 10:06:43
Hi Rella,
Hi 3Rs,
Here is my second attempt to respond to you on this reply.
You have stated that nowhere in Revelation 12:12 and 20:3 and 7 is the word "mello" used. Of course not, because the actions of those verses were all performed in the past from John's perspective. The thousand years ending and Satan's loosing was certainly not something that was "about to happen" in John's days. This only proves my point; that the thousand year's ending and Satan's being loosed was a PAST event from the time John was writing.
No it does not. Not exactly.
Read the verse of Rev 12:12. ( KJ is used for expediency)
Revelation 12:12, KJV: Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. (interlinear states ~ that a short (oligon) time (kairon) he has.
This is not a past tense wording. "for the devil is come down to you.
In fact... let's read all of Rev 12 : 1through vs 13. I include vs 13 as it is the reason for these verses.
Chapter 12
1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. (They had been removed from what they were familiar with.)
9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
John was also told to write about what he had seen in the past, as well as presently occurring events, and things which were about to happen in his near future (Revelation 1:19). The thousand years falls into the category of PAST things which John had seen.
You have not made the case for the 1000 years being in the PAST things.
And neither has Rev 1:19.... , and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things.
My comment did not imply that you don't know what the word "mello" means. I was only stating that the "at hand" term in the Greek which we were discussing was not using the "mello" term. You were the one who brought up the point in your reply that you think I pull the "soon" card consistently. That "mello" term wasn't even the Greek word under discussion at the time. We were discussing the "engus" (presently at hand) term and its use in 2 Thessalonians 2:2.
You have also said that I am excluding Revelation 20:4-6. No, I believe you and I have already exchanged what I think about the interpretation of Revelation 20:4-6. But I will repeat it again if necessary.
We did. But I find them to be of importance and I do not think they ever should be left out.
And you are still laboring under the impression that the "abyss" is an actual physical location somewhere in the universe. It's not.
Yes, it is.
The "abyss" is a STATUS which Christ also experienced at His death, as in Romans 10:7. The "abyss" is no more a physical location than the "keys of death and hell" in the vision were literal metal objects which can open and shut a physical door behind which all the dead are restrained. The "seal" and the "chain" put on Satan are no more a physical thing than is the seal of God in the forehead of the believers. You and I do not have a tattoo mark imprinted on our forehead designating us as children of God. Being "sealed" by the Holy Spirit is to be put in a reserved STATUS as children of God. The particular seal put upon Satan kept him in that reserved STATUS of not being able to deceive until the thousand years expired at Christ's ascension.
That reserved status for Satan by being sealed in the abyss did not say anything about restricting his ability to move around on earth or in heaven. It merely restricted Satan's ability to deceive. You are wanting the chain and the abyss to represent more than the scripture says they do.
Am I? I think that various translations are self explanatory in my beliefs.
Once again I am posting Rev 20: King Jimmy's version....
1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. (Right here I see your error.)
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
At this point it is important to note that Rev 12:12 states Satan "because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."
and not confuse it with Rev 20:7 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
They seem to say the same thing.... but they don't. Satan knows he has but a short time once he is permanently cast to earth because Jesus was born and Satan knows God's salvation plan is in full swing and he is desperate to interfere with that and as many people as he can.
He must be loosed a little season..... then Satan is let loose for one last time to come upon our earth to try and cause one more round of trouble, and to try and pull those away from worship of God/Jesus into final destruction. He will offer one final rebellion against God and His saints.
But I want to show you some translations of REV 20: 3. (Many that support my contention that the abyss is indeed a definite place and a place that could be sealed over.
As you read these I have made the important words red, for easily seeing them....
Keep in mind my Greek interlinear states
Rev 20:3 And shut him in, and sealed over him ( not sealed him but sealed over him)
American Standard Version
Revelation 20:3 (ASV) and cast him into the abyss, and shut [it], and sealed [it] over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years should be finished: after this he must be loosed for a little time.
The Bible in Basic English
Revelation 20:3 (BBE) And put him into the great deep, and it was shut and locked over him, so that he might put the nations in error no longer, till the thousand years were ended: after this he will be let loose for a little time.
Common English Bible
Revelation 20:3 (CEB) He threw him into the abyss, then locked and sealed it over him. This was to keep him from continuing to deceive the nations until the thousand years were over. After this he must be released for a little while.
Common English Bible w/ Apocrypha
Revelation 20:3 (CEBA) He threw him into the abyss, then locked and sealed it over him. This was to keep him from continuing to deceive the nations until the thousand years were over. After this he must be released for a little while.
The Complete Jewish Bible
Revelation 20:3 (CJB) He threw him into the Abyss, locked it and sealed it over him; so that he could not deceive the nations any more until the thousand years were over. After that, he has to be set free for a little while.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Revelation 20:3 (CSB) He threw him into the abyss, closed it, and put a seal on it so that he would no longer deceive the nations until the 1,000 years were completed. After that, he must be released for a short time.
The Darby Translation
Revelation 20:3 (DBY) and cast him into the abyss, and shut [it] and sealed [it] over him, that he should not any more deceive the nations until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be loosed for a little time.
English Standard Version
Revelation 20:3 (ESV) and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.
Good News Translation
Revelation 20:3 (GNT) The angel threw him into the abyss, locked it, and sealed it, so that he could not deceive the nations any more until the thousand years were over. After that he must be set loose for a little while.
Good News Translation w/ Apocrypha
Revelation 20:3 (GNTA) The angel threw him into the abyss, locked it, and sealed it, so that he could not deceive the nations any more until the thousand years were over. After that he must be set loose for a little while.
GOD'S WORD Translation
Revelation 20:3 (GW) He threw it into the bottomless pit. The angel shut and sealed the pit over the serpent to keep it from deceiving the nations anymore until the 1,000 years were over. After that it must be set free for a little while.
Hebrew Names Version
Revelation 20:3 (HNV) and cast him into the abyss, and shut it, and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years were finished. After this, he must be freed for a short time.
Jubilee Bible 2000
Revelation 20:3 (JUB) and cast him into the bottomless pit and shut him up and set a seal upon it, that he should deceive the Gentiles no more, until the thousand years should be fulfilled; and after it is necessary that he be loosed a little while.
King James Version
Revelation 20:3 (KJV) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
King James Version w/ Apocrypha
Revelation 20:3 (KJVA) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up , and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled : and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Lexham English Bible
Revelation 20:3 (LEB) and threw him into the abyss, and shut [it] and sealed [it] above him, in order that he could not deceive the nations again until the thousand years are completed. After these [things] it is necessary [for] him to be released [for] a short time.
The Message Bible
Revelation 20:3 (MSG) dumped him into the Abyss, slammed it shut and sealed it tight. No more trouble out of him, deceiving the nations - until the thousand years are up. After that he has to be let loose briefly.
New American Standard Bible
Revelation 20:3 (NAS) and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.
New Century Version
Revelation 20:3 (NCV) Then he threw him into the bottomless pit, closed it, and locked it over him. The angel did this so he could not trick the people of the earth anymore until the thousand years were ended. After a thousand years he must be set free for a short time.
New International Reader's Version
Revelation 20:3 (NIRV) Then he threw him into the Abyss. He locked it and sealed him in. This was to keep Satan from fooling the nations anymore until the 1,000 years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
New International Version
Revelation 20:3 (NIV) He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
New King James Version
Revelation 20:3 (NKJV) and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
New Living Translation
Revelation 20:3 (NLT) The angel threw him into the bottomless pit, which he then shut and locked so Satan could not deceive the nations anymore until the thousand years were finished. Afterward he must be released for a little while.
New Revised Standard
Revelation 20:3 (NRS) and threw him into the pit, and locked and sealed it over him, so that he would deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be let out for a little while.
New Revised Standard w/ Apocrypha
Revelation 20:3 (NRSA) and threw him into the pit, and locked and sealed it over him, so that he would deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be let out for a little while.
Orthodox Jewish Bible
Hisgalus 20:3 (OJB) And threw him into the Tehom (Abyss), and shut and sealed it over him that he could not deceive any more the Goyim until the elef shanim (thousand years) were completed. After these things it is necessary for him to be released a short time. [DANIEL 6:17]
Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible
Revelation 20:3 (RHE) And he cast him into the bottomless pit and shut him up and set a seal upon him, that he should no more seduce the nations till the thousand years be finished. And after that, he must be loosed a little time.
Revised Standard Version
Revelation 20:3 (RSV) and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years were ended. After that he must be loosed for a little while.
Revised Standard Version w/ Apocrypha
Revelation 20:3 (RSVA) and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years were ended. After that he must be loosed for a little while.
World English Bible
Revelation 20:3 (WEB) and cast him into the abyss, and shut it, and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years were finished. After this, he must be freed for a short time.
Hi Rella,
My sympathies on losing your first long post. When that happens around here, makes me want to stab an ice pick into the brain of the computer's hard drive. But I trust you retrieved enough of it from memory for your second post here.
I would challenge you on thinking that the words "IS come" in the KJV of Revelation 12:12 are in the present tense . This just means "HAS come", as many of the other translations rightly translate it so.
Let me give another pretty clear example of "IS come" being used in the same way (using the KJV). When Christ was casting out devils in the days of His earthly ministry, He told the cynical, doubting ones among the people, "But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God IS COME upon you." Because the kingdom of God in the person of Christ had already come upon them earlier, then Christ's casting out devils was providing the indisputable proof of that which had already happened.
It's the very same with John saying that "the Devil IS come down unto you". Satan had already come down to harass the inhabitants of the earth and the sea, and they were to beware of his wrathful activity, because he had only a "short time" left since he had been loosed on earth to do his deceptive damage.
If you still think that the abyss (abusson) or the bottomless pit is an actual physical location, then you need to tell us where that pit was located when Christ was in it while He was dead. This is mentioned in Romans 10:6-7. "Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) Or, Who shall descend into the deep?" (the abusson) "(that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)" Christ's physical body being in a lifeless state in the tomb was the equivalent of Christ being in the "abyss": a non-functioning condition. Just as the Devil's chain kept his deception of the nations in a non-functioning condition for those thousand years.
You at least can admit that the "short time" of Revelation 12:12 and the "little season" of Satan's being loosed in Revelation 20:3 "...seem to say the same thing...", even though you ultimately deny that they do. This "loosing" of Satan in the context comes just after the woman's child was "caught up to God and His throne" (Christ's ascension in Revelation 12:5). Satan's loosing and consequent persecution of the woman are very obviously the persecution of the early church which broke out the very day of Stephen's martyrdom, led in great part by Saul / Paul's efforts.
Because of Saul / Paul's persecution, the members of the early church fled into the countryside away from Jerusalem, just as the woman also fled into the wilderness. That "flood" cast out by the Dragon / Satan trying to overcome the fleeing woman was that "exceeding mad" torment which Saul / Paul caused among the church; imprisoning, killing, and causing some to blaspheme to avoid death - all with the full support and authorization of the antagonistic high priesthood. Saul / Paul even pursued the believers to "strange cities", bringing them back to Jerusalem for trial and imprisonment.
When Saul / Paul was miraculously converted, the Dragon lost one of his great tools of oppressing the early church. This is how that "flood" of persecution by Saul / Paul was swallowed up in Revelation 12:16. It made the Dragon even angrier, so that he "went to make war with the remnant of her seed". This was Satan operating in full, infuriated battle mode - like the "roaring lion" which Peter called him in those first-century days. This was the "great wrath" of a loosed Satan in Revelation 12:12, which John reminded the church was then occurring for them.
You spoke of Revelation 20:4-6 not being left out of the discussion. These 3 verses are directly linked to the early church and Christ's resurrection day. Immediately after Christ's resurrection, the disciples were then seated on 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel by supervising affairs of the early church for the believing Jews in Jerusalem. These were the very same "thrones" in Revelation 20:4, with the power to judge being given to those sitting on those thrones. Christ had promised that these 12 thrones along with the job of judging the 12 tribes of Israel would be given to the 12 disciples on His resurrection day in Matthew 19:28. That promise anchors this section of scripture to the period of time immediately following Christ's resurrection.
That "remnant of the dead" in Revelation 20:5 which came to life again after the thousand years had finished was called the "First resurrection". Even RB acknowledges that Christ's resurrection was the "First resurrection". This "First resurrection" of Christ's also included the many Matthew 27:52-53 saints coming to life again. THEY were the "remnant of the dead", or the relatively small fraction of resurrected saints who were included in this "First resurrection" event. They were all "blessed and holy", because it was only saints who were raised to life again in Matthew 27:52-53. And they had each reigned with Christ at some point of time during those thousand years when Satan had been bound (from 968 / 967 BC until AD 33).
You have gone to a great deal of trouble to copy versions which say that the "seal" was "OVER" Satan and not ON him for those thousand days. I'm sorry, but this is actually immaterial. A "seal" is merely a symbol that something is put in a reserved state for a period of time. This is why Daniel 12:9 said that Daniel's written visions were "sealed" for a fulfillment at a later time. Daniel's words at the time were being "closed up and sealed till the time of the end", by being purposefully reserved.
As was Satan's deception reserved, by being stalled for a thousand years. By God's design, Satan's deception would be loosed on the world again from AD 33 onward for a particular purpose: to allow the "strong delusion that they should believe a lie, that they might all be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12). This was the great lie that the Zealots believed in: a military Messiah that would conquer Rome and bring a physical kingdom for the Jews in Israel to rule the world.
This great surge of deception by Satan was only justice for those who had rejected their own prophesied Messiah's coming in the flesh. Christ had mercifully cast out devils right and left out of His people during His earthly ministry. As a result of their ultimate rejection of Him, those same devils would return with seven more devils even more wicked than they were. These would all be allowed to oppress the citizens who had rejected Christ Jesus the Messiah - making their last state worse than their first state when Christ was among them.
Rella, you seem to anticipate that this ramped up demonic oppression will come upon the world in our future. It won't. This particular judgment was one which Christ said would apply to that "wicked generation" to whom He had personally ministered (Matthew 12:45). That "wicked generation" and their own children passed away almost 2,000 years ago, so this will not be something that any generation since then will experience. Sorry to disappoint!
: 3 Resurrections Mon Jan 31, 2022 - 21:44:04A "seal" is merely a symbol that something is put in a reserved state for a period of time. This is why Daniel 12:9 said that Daniel's written visions were "sealed" for a fulfillment at a later time. Daniel's words at the time were being "closed up and sealed till the time of the end", by being purposefully reserved.
I just want to clear the air on a couple of of thoughts before continuing my post through 2nd Thess.
I agree with you on what you have said above concerning the seal of God. Also, the bottomless pit is not an actual place~on these two points we agree.
But, you made one that's not so (along with others) concerning what
I believe which I want to correct.
: 3 Resurrections Reply #178 on: Yesterday at 21:44:04 Even RB acknowledges that Christ's resurrection was the "First resurrection".
I will only say this for now~the doctrine of the first resurrection is the new birth, and all who are born again, the second death has no power over them.
RB~later.
: The apostle Paul2nd Thessalonians 2:5~"Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?"
Even though these things were not to take place in their time, He had taught them about it when with them, and is repeating the prophecy here both for their state of mind,
and for us. This teaching is really a warning to the faithful against degradation and adulteration, and to the unfaithful about the judgments of such unfaithfulness. But more than a simple statement by Paul to those at Thessalonica, I
believe that under the inspiration of God this is an exhortation by the lord that He has told "all of us" these things in Christ's teachings, and that we should now bring it to mind with this statement. The Lord works in marvelous ways, and one way is to address something to the Church at Philipi, or Corinthians, or Romans, and have it "truly" be to the whole Church, not simply to those immediate individuals to whom it is addressed, or speaking to at that particular moment in time.
Regardless, Christ
did tell the Church these things when He was here with them on earth. For example in Matthew Chapter 24 where He told the Church about His coming, and those who would be deceived of Satan near the end of the world~which is exactly what Paul is saying here before us. When He was asked when the Temple would be destroyed, and when would be the sign of His coming, and when would be the end of the world, Christ started telling them all these things signifying how many false prophets and false Christs' would arise (verse 5), Kingdom against Kingdom (verse 7) and there would be affliction that they would be hated of all for His name's sake (verse 9). He declared that many false teachers would arise and deceive many (verse 11) and that he that shall endure to the end would be saved (verse 13). He said that this gospel shall be preached in all the world for a witness and
then the end would come (verse 14). This is the exact same teaching we see in 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2.
You will note that among the countless inconsistencies of those Theologians who teach that this all speaks about A.D. 70 is that it blatantly ignores
content, context, and flow. Many chop this chapter up like cold turkey, claiming one verse deals with A.D. 70, and the next verses deal with all through time, and still the next verses deal with the end of the world. This theological view is tortuous of the text here, for it is all talking about the same time period. God is Not the author of confusion. You cannot go to the Bible interpreting one verse in one time and space, and the next in another time and space, and then in the next you go back to the first time. There is no Biblical justification for doing so.
The correlation between the apostasy of 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2, and the apostasy of Matthew chapter 24, is self evident by comparing scripture with scripture. This is the time of Christ's soon return, when Satan is loosed and deceives so many of the world with false gospel, that it is a time of such Great tribulation as never before.
Yes, Jesus has told us before. When He was with the Apostles on the earth He told them (and us) all about this falling away or increase in iniquity, and this time when many false prophets would deceive the Church. But not a lot of Christians are listening. They ask, 'where did He tell us that?' Show them where there is Great Tribulation prophesied near the end of the world, and they will ask again, where does it say that? You show them where, and they'll retort, that's just your interpretation. The Church today cannot see what is right before their eyes because they are too busy turning to the right hand and to the left in order to avoid the truth right in front of them. But The Word of God has told it time and time again, in one way and another.
Just as Paul does in this verse of 2nd Thessalonians. He says, "remember ye not that when I was with you, I told you these things." And as Paul said in 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2, so Jesus says in Matthew chapter 24:25 when talking about these very same things,".....Behold, I have TOLD you before"~We should by the Spirit be starting to get the picture. We have been told before. The teacher prophet told us before. Paul has told us before. Christ has told us before. God has told us before. There is no excuse for us not knowing about the coming apostasy and the great deception of Satan which is to come, because we have been told before. ..and if we don't hear it, then perhaps it's because we're not listening.
: JESUS CHRIST Mark 13:22-23~"for false Christ's and false Prophets shall arise and shall Shew SIGNS and WONDERS, to SEDUCE if it were possible, even the very elect.
But take heed: Behold, I have foretold you all things."
Who is Christ talking to there? Was He just talking to those who were standing there at the time, or is He talking to them,
you and me? : JESUS CHRISTMark 13:37~And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.
So, the question is clearly answered by Christ himself! ! He has foretold them/us all these things about this apostasy. What are these signs and Wonders? Were they in A.D. 70?
Certainly not. Satan wasn't loosed in A.D. 70 so that there was Great Tribulation such as never was before in the history of the world, nor ever would be. Despite the protests by some,
it doesn't qualify for fulfillment of these scriptures.
: Paul2nd Thessalonians 2:9~ "Even Him whose coming is after the working of Satan, with all power and lying signs and Wonders."
This is what the prophecies of Matthew and Mark were talking about. Just as we read in 2nd Thessalonians 2 as it talked about
the time of the end, and the coming of the Lord. Likewise, Mark and Matthew prophesy this. The Bible says when Satan is loosed, he goes forth deceiving, and that this deceiving is a sign and lying wonders. This is illustrated in many places and can only be false prophets and false teachers who come to seduce the Church.
The overview of verse five is that here
God is alerting us that these are not new things. God has told us of this before. When speaking of false Christs' and false prophets coming, Christ said, "But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things." - Mark 13:23. He has told us before. But who has believed His report, or in other words, who is listening to what He is really saying? He who hath an ear to hear will receive the love of the truth of scripture, while the rest will ignore its meaning. So when God says, "Behold, I have told you before," He gives no guarantee, He'll tell you again. For revelation is by the grace of God.
: Paul2nd Thessalonians 2:6~"And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time."
This verse shall help us greatly in determining the timeline of end-time events.
Later~RB
: 3 Resurrections Mon Jan 31, 2022 - 21:44:04
You have gone to a great deal of trouble to copy versions which say that the "seal" was "OVER" Satan and not ON him for those thousand days. I'm sorry, but this is actually immaterial. A "seal" is merely a symbol that something is put in a reserved state for a period of time. This is why Daniel 12:9 said that Daniel's written visions were "sealed" for a fulfillment at a later time. Daniel's words at the time were being "closed up and sealed till the time of the end", by being purposefully reserved.
No, you do not disappoint me. You are set in your mind as I am.
You are convinced that the abyss was not an actual place of confinement
for Satan and you have insisted the seal was actually upon Satan that would keep him from being so dastardly for those 1000 years, while he had a certain freedom to roam about.
You state your opinion that "A "seal" is merely a symbol that something is put in a reserved state for a period of time".
I should comment that a seal could well be used to seal up something for that same period of time.
But before we depart exchanging on these points, however brief they might be would you explain what you believe they meant by the "partial"
verses I list below. All Rev 20:3.
IOW... When you would read from the Greek Interlinear ... And shut him in, and sealed over him . What was he being shut into?
Why do these all indicate Satan was shut in something and that something was sealed over so he could not get out and wander about......
You do not cast, throw, or put someone or something into something that is not there.
You do not close or lock or have a door on something that is not tangible.
But you can place a seal upon something to remain in place until it is opened... Just like a waxed seal on an envelope.
You have shared that your opinion is he was not shut into anything, nor cast ( thrown) into any kind of a pit... bottomless or other. I disagree as do those translators of all those below.
When Greek and Aramaic bibles both of which would have been closer to the time of the happening... why do you say they are wrong? Where is your proof.....?
My list from yesterday is added to with
Geneva Bible of 1587 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and he shut him vp, and sealed the doore vpon him, (You cannot have a door if there is nothing to keep behind it)
Worell New Testament
into the abyss, and shut it, and sealed it over him,
The Passion Translation
threw him into the pit, locked it, and sealed it
1599 Geneva Bible
And cast him into the bottomless pit, and he shut him up, and sealed the door upon him
And my list previously
American Standard Version
Revelation 20:3 (ASV) and cast him into the abyss, and shut [it], and sealed [it] over him,
The Bible in Basic English
put him into the great deep, and it was shut and locked over him,(NOTICE SHUT AND LOCKED)
Common English Bible
threw him into the abyss, then locked and sealed it (NOTICE LOCKED)
Common English Bible w/ Apocrypha
He threw him into the abyss, then locked and sealed it over him. (NOTICE LOCKED)
The Complete Jewish Bible
threw him into the Abyss, locked it and sealed it over him; (NOTICE LOCKED)
Holman Christian Standard Bible
threw him into the abyss, closed it, and put a seal
The Darby Translation
cast him into the abyss, and shut [it] and sealed [it] over him,
English Standard Version
threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him,
Good News Translation
threw him into the abyss, locked it, and sealed it, (NOTICE LOCKED)
Good News Translation w/ Apocrypha
threw him into the abyss, locked it, and sealed it, (NOTICE LOCKED)
GOD'S WORD Translation
threw it into the bottomless pit. The angel shut and sealed the pit
Hebrew Names Version
cast him into the abyss, and shut it, and sealed it
Jubilee Bible 2000
him into the bottomless pit and shut him up and set a seal upon it,
Lexham English Bible
threw him into the abyss, and shut [it] and sealed [it] above him,
The Message Bible
dumped him into the Abyss, slammed it shut and sealed it tight.
New American Standard Bible
threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed
New Century Version
threw him into the bottomless pit, closed it, and locked it (NOTICE CLOSED AND LOCKED)
New International Reader's Version
threw him into the Abyss. He locked it and sealed him in. (NOTICE LOCKED AND SEALED)
New International Version
threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him,
New Living Translation
threw him into the bottomless pit, which he then shut and locked (NOTICE : LOCKED)
New Revised Standard
threw him into the pit, and locked and sealed it over him,
New Revised Standard w/ Apocrypha
threw him into the pit, and locked and sealed it over him,
Orthodox Jewish Bible
threw him into the Tehom (Abyss), and shut and sealed it over him
Revised Standard Version
threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him,
Revised Standard Version w/ Apocrypha
threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him,
World English Bible
cast him into the abyss, and shut it, and sealed it over him,
"You do not cast, throw, or put someone or something into something that is not there.
You do not close or lock or have a door on something that is not tangible."
This is incorrect, Rella. It is most certainly the case in scripture, many times. Remember Revelation 3:7-8. It says, "...These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it..." This was speaking figuratively, of course. God was not placing a door made of literal planks of wood in front of this church. He was speaking of an opportunity for this Philadelphia church, which would be wide open for them to take advantage of it, and with no man being able to prevent them from doing so.
You should also remember the vision Zechariah 5 had of the woman cast into the basket, with a lead weight put on top of the ephah basket to keep that "wickedness" restrained within the basket. This was not a literal basket, a literal lead weight, or literal stork-like wings on the women lifting this basket into the air and taking it to Babylon. There was all kind of symbolism going on here to convey a prophecy of a literal event in Zechariah's near future. This symbolism represented the time during the post-exilic return of putting away the foreign wives from among the Jews, in obedience to God's commands.
Remember also the "gates of Hell" which would not be able to withstand the ongoing triumph of the church's progress in this world. This is not literal gates of iron bars behind which the physically dead of Hades are imprisoned, since there is no location in the universe where physical gates are needed to confine the physically dead in one spot. This is symbolism and metaphor going on, indicating that the physically dead are separated from the living by an inaccessible barrier between them.
You remember also, I'm sure, that Christ told Peter that He was giving him the "keys" of the kingdom of heaven. What Peter bound on earth would be bound in heaven, and what Peter loosed on earth would be loosed in heaven (Matthew 16:19). This was not literal keys to a literal door. It was symbolism and metaphor again.
For the angel to put a seal over Satan in the abyss was to reserve Satan in that state of his deception being restricted for that exact period of a thousand years of time. The seal merely represented that Satan had no way of altering his restricted state until that time had "expired".
I have not said that the Greek and Aramaic translations are wrong. What I am saying is that the Eastern mind used words as pictured representations to convey a vivid impression of what would happen in real time. The Western mind tends to think in more concrete terms, without as much pictorial language. It's actually a more poetic way of writing. Like David writing in Psalms 6:6 "All night make I my bed to swim, and water my couch with my tears". This gives the sense of David's great grief much better than if he simply said, "I cried a lot all night long until my pillow got wet." Unless you believe that beds can literally swim at our command, in which case, I can't help you.
: 3 Resurrections Tue Feb 01, 2022 - 21:27:37
"You do not cast, throw, or put someone or something into something that is not there.
You do not close or lock or have a door on something that is not tangible."
This is incorrect, Rella. It is most certainly the case in scripture, many times. Remember Revelation 3:7-8. It says, "...These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it..." This was speaking figuratively, of course. God was not placing a door made of literal planks of wood in front of this church. He was speaking of an opportunity for this Philadelphia church, which would be wide open for them to take advantage of it, and with no man being able to prevent them from doing so.
You should also remember the vision Zechariah 5 had of the woman cast into the basket, with a lead weight put on top of the ephah basket to keep that "wickedness" restrained within the basket. This was not a literal basket, a literal lead weight, or literal stork-like wings on the women lifting this basket into the air and taking it to Babylon. There was all kind of symbolism going on here to convey a prophecy of a literal event in Zechariah's near future. This symbolism represented the time during the post-exilic return of putting away the foreign wives from among the Jews, in obedience to God's commands.
Remember also the "gates of Hell" which would not be able to withstand the ongoing triumph of the church's progress in this world. This is not literal gates of iron bars behind which the physically dead of Hades are imprisoned, since there is no location in the universe where physical gates are needed to confine the physically dead in one spot. This is symbolism and metaphor going on, indicating that the physically dead are separated from the living by an inaccessible barrier between them.
You remember also, I'm sure, that Christ told Peter that He was giving him the "keys" of the kingdom of heaven. What Peter bound on earth would be bound in heaven, and what Peter loosed on earth would be loosed in heaven (Matthew 16:19). This was not literal keys to a literal door. It was symbolism and metaphor again.
For the angel to put a seal over Satan in the abyss was to reserve Satan in that state of his deception being restricted for that exact period of a thousand years of time. The seal merely represented that Satan had no way of altering his restricted state until that time had "expired".
I have not said that the Greek and Aramaic translations are wrong. What I am saying is that the Eastern mind used words as pictured representations to convey a vivid impression of what would happen in real time. The Western mind tends to think in more concrete terms, without as much pictorial language. It's actually a more poetic way of writing. Like David writing in Psalms 6:6 "All night make I my bed to swim, and water my couch with my tears". This gives the sense of David's great grief much better than if he simply said, "I cried a lot all night long until my pillow got wet." Unless you believe that beds can literally swim at our command, in which case, I can't help you.
Whatever ::shrug::
We will remain in disagreement and add this to our lists of disagreements......
Until you know the meaning of what is, is... and I am not referring to its use in Rev 12.
: THE HOLY GHOST2nd Thessalonians 2:5~"And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time."
The word withholdeth means to "hold down"~ It is illustrating a restraint. The question then is, what is being restrained, or who is doing the ''Holding Down~holding back"? This is a scripture that many theologians
conveniently skirt over quickly or give superficial attention to, because
then they can continue to parrot the
line that the iniquity or the wickedness in Satan was not bound at the cross~when the scriptures clearly teach it was indeed. Once you
honestly addressed this question, you can only come to the conclusion that the iniquity of Satan (at the time of the writing of 2nd Thessalonians) was being restrained or held down, held back of God that the spirit of Antichrist not be revealed
until his appointed time. These verses make clear that the spirit of Satan was bound or being held down until the time period of the second coming of the Lord was at hand.
Lest we forget, and we do so quickly, that's what the beginning verses of this chapter illustrated. Christ couldn't come "until" after this Apostasy under the power of Satan would occur in the Holy Temple of God.
It is often helpful to look at this logically as well as Biblically. How do we know that this is Satan being restrained until this set time? We know it because God tells us that this wickedness or lawlessness that would be revealed, was already at work at the time this epistle was written (around 2000 years ago)~and actually even all the way back to the Garden of Eden. And yet, clearly, God declares that it would also be loosed or unrestrained at an appointed time (2nd Thessalonians 2:7). The coming of the man of sin
is according to the workings of Satan with all signs and lying wonders to deceive. By sound exegesis and Biblical induction, we can only conclude that the only wicked presence or coming that could be at work in the world at that time, yet be bound or restrained (held Down) for 2000 years to be released at the appointed time to deceive the peoples of the world and bring about the man of lawlessness,
is Satan. The unadulterated truth is, it can
only be Satan. He is the only spirit who can qualify to live that long working evil in the world continually and yet has been held down to be loosed when God allows. The evil spirit being called Satan, the old serpent, the Dragon, is the only one who qualifies here~he works THROUGH his children the generation of evil and wicked little serpents. That is to say, if we follow scripture, and not the imaginations of men. He is that evil Spirit of iniquity which was bound at the cross, to be loosed at the appointed little season.
This loosing of restraint of iniquity by no coincidence matches the language of Satan being bound, and then loosed near the end of the world as recorded in Revelation Chapter 20~the timeline is one and the same. There too when he is loosed he goes forth deceiving
the world and to accost the camp of the saints (the very elect...the Church). These things are consistent and agree right down the line not because it is a coincidence,
but because it is God-breathed and the truth. More on this subject when we deal with verse 9.
The iniquity being held down or restrained
is the work of the spirit of Satan. It IS the spirit of Antichrist. He was already in the world then, and
yet was also coming in the future when he is to be loosed with greater power to deceive than ever before, the such the world has never see~and TV will be the very means of helping his deception on Gog and Magog. Is it a contradiction that Satan was restrained, yet working in the world? No, not when we understand all the scriptures in their proper context/sense. Satan is the prince of this world, he goes about as a roaring lion, but that doesn't then mean that Christ didn't defeat him at the cross. By the death and resurrection of Christ Satan was bound, restrained, and made
ineffective against the elect. This was done that Christ could free the captives (which we were before we were being born of the Spirit of God). By conquest, He took us from the House of Satan and the habitation of bondage~there's no such thing as a sinner having a free will toward RIGHTEOUSNESS. He spoiled Satan's house and set free the captivity. Every one of us (the very elect) are sinners that became born again/delivered because we have been freed from the prison-house of Satan. We were slaves to him, and in order to free us, Satan had to be bound.
Not bound for the sake of the world, as God allows him still to be the prince of this world, but for our sakes. Christ has been made our Prince as we were delivered from Satan's Kingdom to His. What this means is that Satan was not bound for every soul in the world, but bound
so that he could not prevent the Lord's freeing His captives (Luke 11:22, Mark 3:27) and building His Church from the nations. He will only be loosed totally after the testimony of the witnesses of Christ
is finished and the Church is built. Then (only for a little season), he will be loosed as judgment, and the Lord will return to Rapture His Church. It must be only a short time because Satan the destroyer is terrible, and there would be no flesh left on earth to be saved with a true understanding of these things. This great evil period has to be only for a short time. This is also why he had to be bound in the first place. To prevent this great evil from taking place the last 2000 years. In other words, so that there could be this time (the New Covenant Church Period) of Peace when all nations 'could' be Saved. But the point is, he was bound for this specific purpose, not so the world could be free of him,
but so the Chosen could be free from him. The Gentile world had been deceived by Satan for the most part since the beginning of time, so Satan HAD to be bound so the truth could go into all the world. Not so that the world would be free of bondage to him, but so that the elect could be free of bondage to him. He was bound so that the kingdom of God could reign on earth, and the Church could be built throughout this New Testament period.
2nd Thessalonians 2:6 poses a second question, which is, "who is restraining this mystery of Iniquity"?
2nd Thessalonians 2:6 poses a second question, which is, "who is restraining this spirit of Iniquity"?
#1. It was already bound (held down or restrained) at the time of Paul's writing. And,
#2. It would be loosed or un-restrained before the coming of the Lord, and our gathering together to meet Him.
It's very important that we see those two FACTS, because they contradict the widely held view that the spirit being Satan will be bound sometime in the future, (or he was destroyed in 70 A.D which is ridiculous) and wasn't bound at the cross. These theories cannot stand when carefully compared with all passages of scripture. The Iniquity that is after the working of Satan which will manifest itself in its fulness when he is loosed, was obviously restrained at the cross. It's not something to be bound, it's something that Paul under inspiration of God declared was already restrained,
else iniquity would have increased even then and the gospel would not have been as successful as it was at the beginning of Acts of the apostles. The reason the gospel was very successful as it were was that Satan (the spirit of the antichrist) was bound. Jesus Himself (speaking of Satan) said clearly:
Matthew 12:29~ "Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except He first Bind the strong man? and then He will spoil his house."
Anyone with eyes to see will know the spiritual truth of these words. Satan is unquestionably the strong man of this parable, and his goods are those who are under his control (the unsaved). He that seeks to Spoil (take by way of conquest) Satan's property is the Lord Jesus Christ. Unambiguously, God illustrates here that Christ could not build His Church by freeing those in captivity to Satan,
except He first bind Satan. That is the picture that Christ (not I) is clearly painting here. This is the same truth taught in Revelation 20:2 where Christ "binds" Satan, OR, limits his power of deception.. Looking at the context of Matthew 12 we see that Christ had authority over Satan by the Power of God (Matthew 12:28), therefore the Kingdom of God had come as Christ spoiled (or seized by right of conquest), Satan's goods. i.e., Christ bound Satan and plundered his house establishing the Kingdom of God. Amen!
He didn't fail to do this, He accomplished His task bringing the glorious gift of Salvation to men. But the parable states that He
FIRST had to bind Satan
before He could do this. This truth is lost on many theologians, but it is nonetheless the Word of God. It is the same truth illustrated in the passage that declares that, "When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men"~Ephesians 4: but first He had to lead captivity captive. The prison house of bondage or slavery in which Satan held us is broken. the law to which we had to answer to because of our sin,
is fulfilled in His His death and resurrection. And if Christ therefore has made us free, then are we free indeed (John 8:36). Speaking of Christ, we read in Colossians:
: Paul Colossians 2:14-15~"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and POWERS, He made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it."
Exactly what principalities or rules and power did Christ triumph over, and when was this done? The "only" honorable answer is that He triumphed over the power of Satan, and the power he spoiled or divested himself of by His death, is the power Satan had over us. Christ triumphed or gained the victory
over Satan for us. He broke the power that Satan had, and He did it at the cross. He by strength greater than Satan's took us from that kingdom (the Kingdom of darkness) and translated us into His Kingdom of light, joy, peace. And He did this by the power of God and the work of the cross. Christ came for the Lost sheep of the House of Israel, and he took them from the house of the strong (Matthew 12) which no one was able to break free from. Christ destroyed the power of Satan over us.
: John1st John 3:8b~"..................................... For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
: The weeping prophetJeremiah 31:10-11~"Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock. For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he."
He that was stronger than Israel is power of Satan. Christ redeemed Israel from the hand of Satan (that was stronger than Israel) by the cross. But as Matthew 12:29 declares,
first, Christ had to bind him. In doing so, He allowed us to go free from his prison-house of darkness (Isaiah 42:7; Luke 4:18). That's why when Jesus spoke of this binding (luke 11:21-22, Matt 12:29), He said if this be so, then the Kingdom had come.
: LukeLuke 11:20~"But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you".
He has redeemed us, delivered us from captivity in one kingdom and translated us into Christ's Kingdom.
: PaulColossians 1:13~"Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the Kingdom of His dear Son."
So then, at the very least we must confess, Yes, Christ triumphed over Satan, bound him, spoiled his house, and put down his principality or rule. He gave freedom to many of those whom Satan had held in bondage to sin. Indeed the scriptures, again and again, testify to these things.
Hebrews 2:14-15~"...that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the DEVIL; and Deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to Bondage.
The Word of God says that by the cross, Christ destroyed Satan in order to deliver us from Bondage by him. That's not my private interpretation or my spin on it, that is what God said there. And it's an important witness, because many Christians do 'mock' at the idea that Satan was put under restraint by the cross. Christ brought Satan down to powerlessness or idleness as far as believers go. Instead of him ruling over them, they rule over him (Psalms 91:13; Luke 10:19; Mark 16:18; Romans 16:20) By His death He has brought Satan down to idleness against the saints that He could deliver those who all their lifetime were subject in bondage. We DO NOT fear Satan he has nothing over us as a child of God. Hebrews says, that is what Christ did for us by His death. It's just another way God speaks about the binding or restraining of Satan by His cross, and the spoiling of his house (our deliverance). Matthew 12 and Revelation 20 speaks about it as the binding of Satan, 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2 speaks about it as the Holding down or restraining of iniquity, Ephesians 4:8 speaks about it as leading captivity captive to give gifts to men, Mark and Isaiah speak of it as house of the strong man, and ransoming from the hand of the strong.
These are all different ways God is saying that we become ruler of the serpent (satan) rather than the serpent ruler over us (Mark 16). They are all talking about the exact same event. Not for all the world, but for all of the world that are Chosen. For them Christ led captivity captive. For them Satan was bound, or made idle that he cannot desolate the Church or it's work until the time he is loosed and the great Apostasy and tribulation will occur. He's not bound for the unsaved (he goes about as a roaring lion), he is bound so that the Lord's house could be built. He's bound for those who would be set free.[quoteLuke]
Luke 4:18~"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,"[/quote]A clear reference to Isaiah 41:1-7 and Isaiah 61. The fulfilling of the freeing of the captivity. In other words, those who are held captive by Satan, not held by the Roman empire, as surmised by some.
Isaiah 61:1-3~"The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified".
Not to set free literal criminals from literal prison houses, but to set free those
who have broken the laws of God from the prison-house of Satan. That is the captivity of Israel which Christ came to free (or set at liberty). The Jews (like many theologians today) didn't understand the spiritual nature of prophecy, retorting that they were already free (John 8:33). They didn't understand that they were held in bondage by Satan and Christ came to set them at liberty from 'this' prison. But in order to do that, He first had to bind Satan, or bring him down to idleness against them. Satan was the strong that held them and Christ did destroy Satan through His death. He delivered or 'released' the chosen from Satan's house of bondage, leading him captive to giving gifts to men. The Gift is that we have no more fear of death, because we are brought out of that house of pain. Those best selling authors and highly touted Theologians who don't understand that Satan was bound at the cross, or who arrogantly claim that Jesus didn't need to bind Satan to spoil his house, demonstrate
a lack of careful exegesis of the scriptures. Matthew 12:29 says, How could Satan's house be spoiled, unless Satan was first bound?
Then and only then could his house be spoiled. That's God's testimony of what "had" to happen versus man's claims that it didn't happen, and wasn't necessary. God's Word is magnificently in total agreement
with itself when we let it interpret itself instead of forcing scripture to say what we have been taught by vaunted Theologians.
The overview of 2nd Thessalonians 2:6 is that God is declaring that the Church knows the impediment that hinders Satan's revelation then, that it will be revealed at the time appointed. He declares, "You know what is restraining, that he might be revealed in his time." The question is, what is his time? And the answer is, i
t's the time near our gathering together to meet the Lord at His second advent. The time when this restraining of Satan is loosed. That which restrains Satan is the power of the Holy Spirit of God. Since Christ bound Satan, and has the keys of Hell and death, only Christ can loose him. This is the angel who came down from heaven who put the seal (security) of God upon Satan when He bound him (Revelation 20:2-3), is He that will loose him at the appointed time. And when the spirit of Satan is loosed, then will the lawless man (transgressor) in the Holy Temple of God be revealed.
: RB Thu Feb 03, 2022 - 05:04:18
2nd Thessalonians 2:6 poses a second question, which is, "who is restraining this spirit of Iniquity"?
#1. It was already bound (held down or restrained) at the time of Paul's writing. And,
#2. It would be loosed or un-restrained before the coming of the Lord, and our gathering together to meet Him.
It's very important that we see those two FACTS, because they contradict the widely held view that the spirit being Satan will be bound sometime in the future, (or he was destroyed in 70 A.D which is ridiculous) and wasn't bound at the cross.
We know 3Rs stand on things and I am in limited agreement with 2 Thes and the restraining of Satan.... but different then you seem to believe. I just do not agree that this restraining of Satan is the end of it.
If the "Holy Spirit" ( I feel that is his restrainer) was not restraining him, the earth would be fairly uninhabitable for anyone who was not following after Satan.
It is obvious that at a minimum God is and has been restraining the power of lawlessness. Comparing today with even the recent past shows that this restraint is being progressively relaxed. Surely you must have noticed that yourself?
I cannot help but feel God is preparing to soon release the forces of evil to do their worst. Leading to that battle we call Armageddon.
I know many say that Satan the most powerful force of evil in the universe has already been defeated and the timer on the end of his evil activities was set when the Jesus walked out of the tomb and defeated sin and death. Therefore, Satan's time is short as is told in Rev 12:12. I feel the statement that his time is short in this verse is more involved but that is for another time.
Satan has been called "the prince of the power of the air" (John 12:31; Ephesians 2:2), or "the god of this world" (2 Corinthians 4:4), "the accuser" of Christians (Revelation 12:10), and "the deceiver of the whole world" (Revelation 12:9).
And rightfully God certainly has prepared hell as a place of punishment for Satan (Matthew 25:41).
So what of those restrictions put on Satan that have been talked of in the bible?
Jesus had alluded to Satan having a short leash in Luke 22:31-32, when He told Peter that Satan had asked to test Peter . That clearly proves that Satan has been restrained
from unleashing his will on all of mankind. Reading the book of Job Satan had to abide by God's rules to do no physical harm to Job when he was trying to pull Job's devotion from God.
And For reasons known only to God, Satan is allowed to wreak havoc on the earth until the time God will forever banish him.
So certainly there is a restraint place on Satan.
But here is where I differ with you and others in this thread.
Before we get to Rev 20 we are told in Rev 16:16
And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
We all are familiar with the Battle of Armageddon as an end-times battle between the forces of the Satan and the forces of Jesus, after His return. Satan , the Antichrist, False Prophet, and all the demons serving them will gather forces together ( Rev 16: 13-14) at a place called Armageddon, which means "Mount of Meddigo" (Rev 16:16).
This will occur some time after the return of Jesus. At what specific point which will be after the seven trumpets of Revelation ( read Rev 11), and before the pouring out of the seven bowls of God's wrath ( read Rev 14).
The battle will occur specifically after the sixth bowl (Rev 16:12-16). The pouring of the sixth bowl dries up the great river Euphrates, to make way for the "kings of the East".
We are told in Rev 17 In the last days, Jerusalem will be the religious headquarters of the Antichrist.
We are told in Rev 18 It will be destroyed, seemingly after the second coming of Jesus
We are told in Rev 19: 17-21 The Battle of Armageddon will be the Antichrist's final attack against Jesus .
We are told in Rev 20:1-3 This will occur before the millennium, when Satan is bound for a thousand years
IMPORTANT to remember ... The battle of Armageddon IS NOT the final battle between good and evil. .
Satan will lead another battle of his forces against God, when he is released at the end of the millennium (Revelation 20:7-10).
The Great White Throne judgment will occur after this final battle (Revelation 20:11-15).
We are told in 1 Corinthians 15:24–26 which says, "Then the end will come, when Jesus hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he 'has put everything under his feet.'"
Satan's time of freedom is nearing the end. When Jesus returns, He will be victorious in the battle we call "Armageddon" (Revelation 16:6). It won't be much of a fight because Jesus annihilates Satan's forces with the word of his mouth (2 Thessalonians 2:8; Revelation 19:21).
To be clear.
It is after his defeat at Armageddon, Satan will be bound for a thousand years "to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time" (Rev 20:3).
At the end of that time, Satan is released; true to form, he leads one more rebellion against Christ and His kingdom (verses 7–9). Again, Satan's forces are defeated, and Satan himself is "thrown into the lake of burning sulfur" to "be tormented day and night for ever and ever" (verse 10).
There is then one final judgment of all those who have rejected Christ (Revelation 20:11–15). The last act before eternal paradise begins for the children of God is the eternal banishment of sin and of Satan.
So we do have the restraining going on but it is less and less which is obvious to anyone who cares to notice.
We will have the actual sealed over binding of Satan for that 1000 years, after Armageddon. And Armageddon has not happened yet.
2nd Thessalonians 2:7~"For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."
This is the verse we touched on earlier. Mystery of Iniquity was already at work at the time of the writing of this epistle, and yet it was being restrained. The word word "letteth" is an old English word which simply means restrains~meaning to hold down, and by implication to prevent one from doing something. For example, if I were to grab someone and hold them down so that they couldn't attack someone, I would be restraining them. That is how this word is used here. To be held down or restrained from doing something.
The mystery of iniquity is Satan working his guile to deceive folks. It all started in the garden of Eden after Eve was created from Adam's rib. We see Satan deceiving folk through his false prophets all through the OT.
The professed churches of the latter days of the last days will be allowed to act outside of God's law without restraint. And this secret or mystery is revealed to the saints as rebellion against the laws of God by man will greatly increase as this world comes to its end. In a word, the places of worship will become lawlessness, worship that our forefather never dreams of coming to the degree we now see it with our eyes.
This mystery of Iniquity was already at work when 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2 was written and has since the beginning of time~but would be restrained so that the NT Church of Jews and Gentiles could be built. There are those Theologians who like to argue that, "If Satan was bound at the cross, why is there so much evil in the world," or who actually mock declaring that, "He must not have been bound to tightly, because he is sure loose in the world today." I can understand this sentiment in light of the world, but
not in the
light of the Scripture. First of all, this is what this verse is saying, not something man merely claims that it says. It says Yes, iniquity was already at work in the world even then, and yet it declares it nevertheless was being restrained, and would continue to be restrained until the time when he who restrains it was removed from the midst. God said this~ And for any Christian to mock or deny that is tank foolishness on his part.
We didn't say iniquity was working and yet was restrained, God said that. So all these Theologians who want to argue semantics are arguing with God. How can iniquity be held down
if it's up and working in the world~soem would argue? Because "God defines terms", not man! It's not defined by Webster's dictionary of what is bound, restrained, or held down,
but God's Word. The fact is, Satan was bound/restrained
for a specific reason. He was
not so that there would be no more evil in the world, he was not restrained so that the Church
would never be persecuted, and he was not held in check so there would be a golden age of purity. He was (as we've clearly seen) bound so that he could
not go forth deceiving the nations to the degree he had since the world begun and so he could NOT gather them together to assault the camp of the Saints to "TRY" completely destroy them until after Christ's Church was built. That is why he was bound. Satan has no defense against Christ's onslaught at his gates. When Christ assaults the gates of Satan's Kingdom, He builds His Church with the spoils thereof.
: THE HOLY GHOSTLuke 11:21-22~"When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils."
: JESUS CHRIST Matthew 16:18~"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
Christ assaults satan's gates to build His Church, spoiling his kingdom and translating those He has chosen from that prison house of darkness into the glorious Kingdom of the Lord. Nothing will prevent the Church from being built, and
that is why Satan was bound. But when the time nears for Christ's return (meaning the Church is complete or
nearly complete) then Satan will be loosed, and will deceive again and cause a "great Apostasy" and Tribulation in the world toward the camp of the saints. But only for a little season, as judgment upon the unfaithful Church. As it is written, Judgment must begin at the House of God (1st Peter 4:127). Iniquity is restrained of God, until Christ is removed out of the midst of the temple, the light of the world darkened.
Many have hypothesized about what really restrains sin. Church tradition once held that it was restrained by the law of the Roman Empire. But that didn't last long because after Roman law was long gone,
the Church prospered and grew even more. Others theorized that it was the gospel itself being witnessed which restrained sin. This is a much more biblical interpretation, but still does not really get down to the root, or efficacy of the restraint. i.e., sin is not restrained by words (scripture), but by the power of the Word (which is the Spirit).
Again, that which restrains iniquity is referred to as that which restrains (verse 6), and as he which restrains (verse 7).
This would seem to indicate a power involving personal agency. Moreover, "we know most assuredly" that the only true restrainer of sin is the Holy Spirit of God. Thus, we have our answer. The Holy Spirit is this restrainer of iniquity of which Paul writes, and which has been doing it's job for around 2000 years since this epistle was penned.
He who is in the midst of the Church who restrains, is the Spirit of Christ. When Christ is taken out of the Churches, then the Spirit is no longer there. Then will the spirit of Satan be loosed to take its place as the substitute, or anti-Christ. This is the time when many false authorities or pseudo Christs' arise because of lack of restraint. In other words, these were already here in the world but were being restrained. In fact, when we look carefully at 2nd Thessalonians verse 7, it is not unlike what we read of Anti-Christ in 1st John:
1st John 4:3~"And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is NOT of God: and this is that spirit of anti-Christ, whereof ye have heard that it Should Come; and Even Now Already is it in the world."
Is this evil spirit of Anti-Christ Coming? Indeed it is. And yet God said that this spirit was already there in the world even then. It's very easy for some Theologians to mock and say how can Satan be bound when he's loose in the world, or how can Satan be destroyed (made idle down) when he goes about as a roaring lion in the world, but this mocking shows an unbridled ignorance of scriptures. And this verse declaring of the spirit of Antichrist (Satan, the spirit against or opposed to Christ) even then was already in the world, and yet was also coming, illustrates this principle very clearly. Because he was at the time, simply "held Down" that in the future he would be released to come in power which he didn't have the authority to do then.
There are Christians who will tell you that the Antichrist must come. They are absolutely right. But then they tell you it is
a single man, and they are totally wrong. No man was already in the world when these passages were written, and will also be in the world when the end comes.
This is obviously no single man. It is the spirit of Satan, working his deceivings
through men. Not through 'a man,' but through mankind. Only Satan could exist from the time of John, to the time of the second coming. And even though some Theologians try to split hairs in saying, "there are many antichrists but these are the spirit of AntiChrist, not Antichrist. But careful examination of scriptures shows that they are grasping at straws. We read unambiguously that the antichrist was already there at that time also.
2nd John 1:7~"For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a DECEIVER and an ANTICHRIST."
This doesn't say The spirit of Antichrist, or The antichrist, it says an "antichrist". Obviously, there are many, and it's not just one man as is popularly theorized. So then, if we have an antichrist at the time of John, and will come to power near the end, then this theory that this is a single man cannot be Biblically validated nor substantiated. Let me say with all due respect to those who believe such things, It can "nowhere" be shown in the scriptures that the Antichrist is one single man who manifests himself near the end. If we let the Bible (and not our imaginations and teachers) "define" what Antichrist is, then we will have no problem understanding scripture, nor God's interpretation. The spirit Satan working through his children is the Antichrist that is to come greater than in all history of this world. TV and the Internet is the means of bringing this to past. The Problem comes in when people ignore how the Word of God defines the spirit antichrist, and accept what some teachers say he is. That is an old and yet continuing mistake in the Church. God defines terms, not preachers, horror movies, tradition or webster's dictionary. The Word of God says a deceiver who confesses not that Jesus is the Christ, is an AntiChrist. And that is because he has the spirit of Satan ruling within him.
Many make the exact same error in defining the man of sin (lawlessness) as they think he also is a single man, the Antichrist. But the man of sin is an Antichrist, not "the" Antichrist. He was here at the time of the writing of scripture, and he will/and has come in our day. Only the spirit of Satan qualifies as both. Antichrist was to come, and yet scripture also said it was already in the world at that time of John. That's exactly what 2nd Thessalonians 2:7 means when it says the iniquity was already at work, yet was restrained to be revealed at a future time. Both verses say the same thing. There will come a time when the spirit of Satan will be loosed and iniquity
will increase and abound. It is a time of great deceiving when the spirit Satan is loosed. There is no one lawless man coming,
but many will be a man of sin or lawlessness. And this man of lawlessness will rule in the Holy Temple in his own authority (as if he is God) and cause its downfall. These evil men who don't follow the laws of God all have one thing in common. They all are sons of the Devil with the spirit of Satan in them. They are sons of Perdition, all in servitude to Satan.
Why is it that the Great Tribulation period could not come upon the world until near the end of Time? What was preventing it? The answer is that it was God of course. This great tribulation and iniquity (Matthew 24) have been prevented from happening for nearly 2000 years because Satan was bound as God builds His Church. Satan could not muster his armies from all the nations to assault the camp of the Saints in a way that would bring this great tribulation (greater than this world has ever seen, nor will see thereafter). Are we to think that Satan didn't want to bring this iniquity and Great tribulation 1000 years ago? 500 year ago? 100 years ago? Surely he does because he is the father of lies and deception, the epitome of Evil. But he was obviously bound from being able to do so by God. He cannot bring it until he is loosed.
The overview of verse seven is that God is telling us that there is a mystery in how the iniquity of Satan was at work in the world already then, but was being restrained until the time when he who restrained it was taken out of the way (midst). Because of Satan's being bound in this New Testament millennial reign of Christ, many through the years were freed from his captivity, and are risen up to live and reign with Christ in His kingdom. Because of this restraint of Satan many are translated from the power of darkness to the Kingdom of God. The point is, when the time comes, Satan is loosed as God takes His hand of restraint out of the midst of the Church. This is what this verse is declaring. Iniquity was still at work, and yet was restrained until He who retrains it will be taken out of the midst
2nd Thessalonians 2:8~"And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming;"
The latter days leading up to the day of the Christ/Lord which are one and the same just before his coming, the THAT WICKEd shall be reveal, but
only to those who know the times of the seasons just as Anna and Simeon did in Luke three.
When the time comes, and Christ is taken out of the midst of the Church, then will this iniquity or lawlessness of Satan be revealed seen ruling therein~ again known only to a few who have eyes to see and ears to hear. This is when the times of Jacob's trouble will truly start. In other words, that which has been restrained of God all those years is let loose to do its work with/in men who are lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God. The Spirit of disobedience (Ephesians 2:2) will be free to use the man of sin or lawless man to do his will against God and the saints.
Revelation chapter 20 says, then Satan must be loosed a little season. And though it doesn't say in this verse he's loosed a little season,
it is clear by the context and language that it is for a short period just before the coming of the Lord. The context after all 'is' (verse 1-3) the return of the Lord when we shall gather to meet Him, and the things which must happen
first before that takes place. God declares that He will consume this evil with the Spirit of his mouth (The Word of God) and shall destroy it with the brightness of His coming. Clearly, when the iniquity is loosed the lawless man ruling the spirit of antichrist won't be destroyed until Christ's second coming. And it will be a notable manifestation of Christ,
not secret. Not like the
"alleged" coming in A.D. 70.
All will see Him.
Matthew 24:27~"For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and SHINETH even unto the west; so shall also the COMING of the Son of man be."
This passage isn't talking about 70 A.D., or anytime thereabouts. It's talking about Christ coming in "final" judgment and there will not be one eye anywhere on the earth that will not see Him. This is the brightness or notable shining that Christ comes with. The brightness shines from the east even unto the west and none shall be able to hide from His presence. It will lighten every corner. The minute His light shines upon them, the wicked will be undone. And they know they are undone and must stand for the Judgment. They will seek to flee but to no avail.
The overview of verse eight is that it is illustrating to us that when the spirit of Satan is loosed, then will Satan, that wicked one, be revealed as he works within man to bring wickedness upon the earth. In a vain attempt to overthrow God and destroy the very elect. This is he who the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, which is the Word of God. The wicked shall be destroyed with the brightness of Christ's coming and then will man discover that life really wasn't a game after all. Then will be the realization of the seriousness of crimes against the most Holy God.
: Paul2nd Thessalonians 2:9~"Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders."
This verse tells us who Christ will destroy with the brightness of His coming. He will destroy the man OF SIN, or MAN of sin, whose coming is after the working or operation of Satan, with all signs and "lying" wonders. Again, Satan manifests himself in man, not as a red colored aberration with goat horns a pitch fork with fish hook tail. He doesn't manifest himself as a single man with dark and supernatural powers to spin beds or command dogs,
he works (operates) through his generation of serpents.....mankind void of the Spirit of God. Mainly through false prophets with signs and lying wonders which is a synonym for false gospels.
Note that the man of sin (sinful man) has the primary work of spiritual deception of the Church with the power of false gospels and with/by lying wonders.
He is not the political ruler governing nations, nor does he have military domination~not even connected with military domination, it is mainly religious in nature. The apostasy is obviously of a Christian Church character and is that which welcomes this lawlessness of man. We should not miss the point that if the gospel that people bring is false, then the god that they worship is false. The man of sin (who is not of God) will come with these signs of lying wonders. In other words, in contrast to the true signs and miracles of Salvation, their signs and miracles are of damnation. No one is saved (in a practical sense) by their gospel, but they are deceived into thinking that they are. Their words are SEE THERE, SEE HERE Christ is among us! That's the "lie". These false Prophets say "Peace and Safety" when there is none. There is no Peace with God in their gospel, and there is no Safety in the arms of the Lord when they follow false teachings (despite what some church leaders will tell you). The false gospels deceive the people into thinking they have salvation and try to prove it with sign and wonders for their gospel certainly cannot prove that they are of God. And from all scriptures, we learn that this is exactly what will happen near the end of the world. Satan will be loosed and false Christs (Churches are the body of Christ) and false prophets will abound to deceive even the elect (chosen) if that were possible. But it is not possible, because the Elect don't put stock in man's words, fables, private interpretations, or the writings of secular history. They rely on God's Word
only (sola scriptura) as the
ultimate authority for truth, that they are not deceived by man's teachings~signs and supposedly wonders.
So when Satan is loosed, he shall come upon the world manifesting himself in false prophets with signs and lying wonders~in our days with TONGUES and the empire in which they have built with their lying gospel.
Again this perfectly mirrors Matthew 24 of Abomination standing in the Holy Place and false Christs, and false prophets arising to deceive even the Elect if that were possible. It is called a time of great tribulation or a time of trouble. As well it would be because when false prophets are loosed in the Holy Temple, they make it abominable and
there can be no greater tribulation for true believers. What could be worse than that? What could be more trouble than having the Temple of God brought to desolation by those under Satan's power, deceiving by lying wonders or miracles? Deceived, the Church will not receive the love of truth of God's Word,
but they will receive these lying words of wonder. Those bringing the truth will be reviled, spoken evil of, and persecuted as uncompassionate and unloving legalistic and judgmental. This is because they come with the truth of the Word rather than compromise with the way of the world. Those who forsake God's Word the Churches will call caring, and compassionate and Loving Christians. These are confused times when man will give every excuse imaginable for turning away from God's Word, except the truth (that they don't want to obey it). They don't wish to be under God's law, and that is why they are called the man of sin. They have no love for it, as their love has grown cold (Matthew 24:12). This is the man of sin. When you don't want to follow God's Laws, then you will have in your heart hatred for someone who keeps bringing it up (testifying of it) because it has become as a torment to you. This is what Revelation 13:13-14 is talking about when it declares:
Revelation 13:13-14~"And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, and DECEIVETH them that dwell on the earth, by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword and did live."
This is the same spirit of Satan working through false prophets and deceiving many by signs and lying wonders. The same as we see in 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2. The Beast is "Symbolic" of those men of Satan's Kingdom. Throughout scripture, Beasts symbolize Kingdoms (see Daniel's Beasts for example). The symbolism is Horns like a Lamb (imitating the power of Christ, the Lamb) but speaks like a Dragon. The Dragon is "symbolic" of Satan. In other words, Revelation is saying that they "appear" as the power of Christ, but their words (what they speak) are not word of God, but of the Dragon, Satan. They go forth doing great wonders and deceiving the people on earth by the great miracles they had the power to do in the sight of the Beast (those men of Satan's kingdom). T
hose of his kingdom see this as miraculous works, but not the faithful children of God. Christ brought the true miracle, but these are of Satan and they bring false miracles. Miracles symbolize salvation. Healing the sick, raising the dead, opening the eyes of the blind, having the deaf to hear, laying hands on the sick and they recover, all these things
are representing the true nature of salvation. Christ did the true miracles "representing" true salvation. but the man of sin deceives those who do not love the truth of God's word, by virtue of the "lying miracles" he effects. These are counterfeit miracles
or false salvation. False salvation in that people worships the false god (represented by the image or likeness of the beast). They've made their god in the image of themselves, and the kingdom in which they serve.
Those who will not worship this false god are spiritually killed.
That means all the true believers in the Church are silenced from among their misdt~they are NOT welcome. For the true believers "of the Spirit" can see this abomination in the Holy Place and they speak out against it (unlike those deceived who are overcome of this death). And in standing against this abomination, they are driven from the Churches that their witness is dead (killed). No one mourns the loss of the Witness of truth in the Church at this time, they rejoice.
The two witnesses know a lying miracle when they see it, and they know the fire from heaven (Judgment of God) called, when they see it. And because they testify against the deeds of the Church, they are hated, driven out, killed (in the spiritual sense ~Revelation 11:7), yet they will not be Satan's Slave (marked 666), they will not worship the beast, nor stay in a place that is abominable to God. They will flee to the mountain retreat or refuge, as God had warned them to do. Security is in the mount of God, it is the only retreat in this time of trouble. It is the great mountain Kingdom of the Lord. God has promised, "
Isaiah 11:9~They will not Hurt Nor Destroy, in all My Holy Mountain".
This is the only place we are safe and secure from the Destroyer. And the true believers leaving the unfaithful or harlot churches of course leaves behind them a Dead church, an assembly without life. Without Christians, without Christ, and therefore it is without Life. Christ has been removed from the midst. The believers see this power of Satan ruling there and understand they must flee. For what agreement has the Holy Temple of God with an image of the beast?
None!
The Overview of verse nine is that God tells us that when Satan is loosed from his prison, he will come in the form of the man of sin. In other words, the coming of the lawless man is in accord with the activity of Satan. The ruler of the Holy Temple will be acting as an agent of the devil. That is what is meant by, his operation is after the working of Satan. In other words, the man of sin gets his energy from that ruling spirit working within him, which is Satan. This spirit of disobedience moves him to bring false gospels with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish. These false signs and wonders are significations of a false salvation program, as contrasted with the true signs and wonders of the Apostles which illustrated the true salvation in the person of the Son of God where he was made a surety for God's elect.
: THE HOLY GHOST2nd Thessalonians 2:10~"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of Truth that they might be saved."
Satan deceives those who are unfaithful to God's Word.
This is expressly why Satan is loosed. Does not Revelation chapter 20 tell us this plainly, in that he is Loosed and deceives the nations. And this verse tells us that those who are deceived by the false prophets are deceived because they
would not receive the love of truth that they might be Saved. These are the unfaithful of the Churches who won't take heed to what the Word of God says. They are the unrighteous spoken of here that are going to perish because they don't want the truth. The testimony here is that they refused to receive the love of truth. They don't really love God because they don't want truth. The question is often asked, "What is the truth?" The answer is that
"it is Christ, and it is the Word which His Spirit reveals to us." None will receive it but him who God gives it as a gift.
: JESUS CHRISTJohn 14:17~"Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know Him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."
Only those who are truly born of God love God (because He first loved them) and thus will receive the love of truth. The rest will not receive it because they want to do their own will instead of God's. They will be judged because of their unfaithfulness. We must try or test what our teachers tell us, that we not be deceived. When we receive what the scriptures say, we evidence the love of God and truth. If we without questioning believe our pastors, or teachers, or Church leaders, or TV Evangelist,
then we place ourselves in a position to be deceived by things which we want to hear. We must always make an effort never to fight against God's Word because of our own will or Church traditions, but receive His truth with humility and surrendering love. Because there are those who no matter how many scripture passages there are to prove God said something, will fight against it without fail. In other words,
they don't really like what God has to say and so they won't "receive" it as truth. And it doesn't matter if it's plainly written or if it's not plainly written, because if it goes against what they already believe or have been taught, they will not receive it. They are drawn into lawlessness or sin because they don't truly love God~regardless of what they say otherwise.
1st John 5:3~"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous."
Again:
]2nd John 1:6~"And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it."
When we receive God's laws, we receive the love of truth. Those who will not receive it will come under God's wrath. And with each passage witnessed to them that verifies that the Bible indeed says something contrary to their teachings, many will become more agitated and will revile you for making them uncomfortable in their beliefs. They simply don't want to hear that scripture contradicts their views. Some become so incensed that they start calling names like false prophets, or they may refuse to even consider the verses or even speak to you. This is because the word is as a torment to them because they don't want to be under its authority, the witness of, "Thus saith the Lord," torments them. It's like a burr in the saddle. What they want to hear is that they're right, or that God is flexible in His laws, or that we can compromise about what the Word says. They want to hear nothing which makes them uncomfortable in their sins. And this verse of 2nd Thessalonians is speaking of those who are just such people. People under the wrath of God have no excuse for their refusal to receive the love of truth.
Romans 1:18~"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;"
God shall judge them in His wrath because they held the truth in unrighteousness, who changed the truth of God into a lie and worshipped and served the creation more than the Creator. They served themselves (man of lawlessness) in the Holy Temple, not God. Therefore will God remove His hand of restraint of iniquity and will give them up, just as He has done before.
: Paul Romans 1:26-28~"For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;"
Sound familiar? Sound at all like what is going on in our day? A reprobate mind is an unapproved, or unsound mind. It is a flawed mind, a mind which cannot make sound judgments. It is the mind which is spiritually marked of the beast, and antithetical to the mind of Christ (1st Corinthians 2:16). We look around at obvious (to children of God) lawlessness in the Churches and we ask ourselves how can professing Christians condone such, and put to silence those who would dare to testify to God's Word which speaks against it? And the answer is that the mind becomes unsound and reprobate. The heart of natural man is desperately wicked, and the prophecy is that near the end, this heart will be more and more in the Church. Iniquity abounds and the love of God grows cold (Matthew 24). This is what we see prophesied in these verses of Thessalonians. But God is not mocked and will judge.
The overview of verse ten is that when the man of sin comes, energized by that spirit Satan, he will come with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish. And the reason they will perish God tells us is that "they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved." In other words, the unfaithful of the Church became backslidden, where they turned away from the God of the Bible having a lapse in morals where they fell to lawlessness or sin. God indeed is longsuffering or patient, but when the time comes to the full, God will reveal the judgment of His wrath on these people. God is informing us that these are unlawful, and 'this' is why they will be deceived of Satan.
: The HOLY GHOST2nd Thessalonians 2:9~"Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders."
I want to enlarge a little on:
"after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders".
In our days the professing temple of God has been overrun with men and women under the power of Satan showing
signs and wonders. This has nothing to do with what they preach for their message is corrupted and they have no clue of the gospel of Christ as taught by Paul in Galatians 2-5. We judge them NOT by signs and wonders, but by the gospel as taught by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Examples of signs and wonders: Jesus said these words:
Luke 13:18-21~"Then said he, Unto what is the kingdom of God like? and whereunto shall I resemble it? It is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and cast into his garden; and it grew, and waxed a great tree; and the fowls of the air lodged in the branches of it. And again he said, Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God? It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
These two parables fits perfectly with
2nd Thessalonians 2. The church in its beginning was very small, yet it has become a GREAT source of $$$$$$$ for the fowls of the air (evil spirits/devils who teach doctrines of devils) They are here to lodge and only are increasing almost daily.
In around 1900 the sect of Pentecostalism was born and from them, The Word of Faith movement was born basically each has the same doctrine, only the Word of Faith movement are more liberal in their practices and GREED. These two groups are the main movement described by parables and by Paul and John.
They deceive folks with their lying wonders and fake gifts. The wonders are they can go from a storefront to a larger place, onward to even larger places growing at an enormous rate. The fake gifts are the unknown tongues that they can utter at a drop of a bucket that actually serves only their fleshly proud hearts. Their fake healings most of the time are set up beforehand.
IF they truly had the gift of healing as they proclaim then they would enter places like St Jude hospital and heal those precious little children who we KNOW children believe whatever you tell them. They would go into the hospitals around the world and PROVE their gifts as Jesus did going about everywhere to heal all that were oppressed of the devil~many he told them to tell no man because he did not do this to be seen or to make a name for himself.
The wonders are these false prophets live like kings of the earth and are extremely rich robbing simple-minded folks (spiritual speaking) who are primed to be deceived by them
These men and women come saying that Jesus is the Christ and that is true, but a careful examination of their doctrine proves that they preach another gospel, having another spirit just as Paul said. First, Christ said:
: JESUS CHRISTMatthew 24:4,5~And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Yes Jesus is Lord, but their Jesus is another Jesus.
: Paul2nd Corinthians 11:3,4~But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear
I listen every day to SBN~Jimmy Swaggart's station~Pentecostalism, and The Victory Channel~Kenneth Copeland station~The Word of Faith sect..... who follow the steps of Oral Roberts, their spiritual father so that I can see with my eyes and hear with my ears so that I can speak with true knowledge of what I'm talking about. These two men along with a host of others have built an empire of great wealth using the word of God and have millions following them and every day, their numbers are increasing, yet knowledge of the truth is not there~I know, I test them daily.
That being said, we DO NOT judge every single person therein but their false prophets and main followers and supporters who have been strongly deceived by them and are living under a very strong delusion thinking God is with them and that they are Spirit-filled with the evidence of speaking in other tongues. I have talked with two of them in my own home of how they were in them and went through the motion speaking in some type of utterance that they now ashamedly confess was not of God.
They were in their early twenties seeking some type of religious experience trying to find God......... using their own words to me.
3 Resurrections know them very well. or at least should.
: Rob Fri Nov 05, 2021 - 10:27:38
The resurrection both of the just and the unjust takes place on the last day but Revelation 20:4-5 separates the resurrection by 1000 years. Which is symbolic?
Have you noticed how RB & Rella have hijacked the entire thread with their personal ideology?
Have you noticed that nobody else participates except them now?
That's me, hollering from the choir loft...
: Choir Loft Sun Apr 24, 2022 - 08:27:15
Have you noticed how RB & Rella have hijacked the entire thread with their personal ideology?
Have you noticed that nobody else participates except them now?
That's me, hollering from the choir loft...
Have you noticed that the person you are replying to is no longer an active member of the forum? Have you noticed that you're replying to a thread that is 1 1/2 years old?
A little more reading and a little less hollering.
: Choir Loft Sun Apr 24, 2022 - 08:27:15
Have you noticed how RB & Rella have hijacked the entire thread with their personal ideology?
Have you noticed that nobody else participates except them now?
That's me, hollering from the choir loft...
See
Reply #16