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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PD1v7yyOO4w

Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. 8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. 9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. 14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. 2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image. 3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea. 4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood. 5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. 6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. 7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments. 8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. 9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory. 10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, 11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds. 12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. 17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. 18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. 19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. 20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

All of the above is ancient history, and already fulfilled.  Every bit of it.

Amo, the you tube selection you submitted is nothing but fear-mongering that ignores God's repeated promises to grow His kingdom in this world. 

It matters not what the subversive plans of men are to establish a one-world government.  God has no such design to allow this, since He has already smashed Daniel's statue of world government powers into dust long ago.  There is no other "statue" of world government powers that has replaced that one.  The "stone" kingdom of Christ is the only one that will grow and eventually fill the earth - as promised by God Himself.

: 3 Resurrections  Sun Nov 20, 2022 - 10:21:24


Amo, the you tube selection you submitted is nothing but fear-mongering that ignores God's repeated promises to grow His kingdom in this world. 

  The "stone" kingdom of Christ is the only one that will grow and eventually fill the earth - as promised by God Himself.

No 3R... Fearmongering it is not. Fact it is. Just look how fast this growth is becoming.... Remember Jesus himself said Render unto (Caesar) And God the Father said "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God."

A couple of fine  ??? examples are shown below.

LGBTQ Appointments in the Biden - Harris Administration
As of April 29, 2021 – the 100 Days mark of Joe Biden's presidency – over 200 known LGBTQ people have been appointed to his administration, the most in history at this point in any administration.

LGBTQ Victory Institute's Presidential Appointments Initiatives advocates for LGBTQ appointments and tracks the success. Below is a list of more than 200 LGBTQ appointees whose names are publicly available.

Look at the link to see the names....

https://victoryinstitute.org/programs/presidential-appointments-initiative/lgbtq-appointments-in-the-biden-harris-administration/

(https://i.ibb.co/8xJhd0L/55628340-8dd6-11ec-be5e-e1be01fe8c2f-1.webp) (https://ibb.co/rpgWcmR)

(https://i.ibb.co/tY3Tm3V/rachel-levine.webp) (https://ibb.co/ygVcfVH)

Rella, God is perfectly capable of taking out the trash in His own time.  Your focus and that of Amo is to look at all the dire circumstances of the immediate moment and presume that mankind's sinful activities can somehow overturn God's plans for this world and the progress of His kingdom within it. 

You are looking at too small a section of the graph of all of human history.  This is much too myopic a view.  And it IS fear-mongering to focus mainly on the wickedness of mankind and to forget God's promises of kingdom growth.

"Greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world."

Just curious, 3 Res,

Was it God's plan for this world that Stalin would murder millions and cause really serious harm to even more?  Or that Mao Zedong would murder even more than Stalin or that Pol Pot would torture and kill half of the inhabitants of Cambodia?  And that was just in the twentieth century.  Is it fearmongering to point out that even worse could happen in the not-too-distant future?

4WD, it is God's plan in this world to use His Spirit's work in men's lives to triumph and build His kingdom in spite of every evil act ever committed by fallen mankind and it's corrupted nature. 

Believers are on the winning side.  And God helping me, I would say the same thing with a Muslim sword at my neck.  Didn't Christ say that even the gates of Hell could not withstand the advance of His church in this world?

3 Res, you didn't answer my question.  But I didn't really expect you to answer it.  Your thinking that the horrendous activities spoken of in Revelation are in the past would prevent you from any reasonable answers about what is going on in the world today.

: 3 Resurrections  Mon Nov 21, 2022 - 11:00:38
Rella, God is perfectly capable of taking out the trash in His own time.  Your focus and that of Amo is to look at all the dire circumstances of the immediate moment and presume that mankind's sinful activities can somehow overturn God's plans for this world and the progress of His kingdom within it. 

You are looking at too small a section of the graph of all of human history.  This is much too myopic a view.  And it IS fear-mongering to focus mainly on the wickedness of mankind and to forget God's promises of kingdom growth.

"Greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world."

When it affects you and yours personally it is difficult to accept.

Too small a section? No, because evel is expanding by leaps and bounds everywhere and there is NO place one can escape it. It is getting worse and worse because that is what the people want.

Is this God's plan. YES IT IS... but it also is difficult when there is no way of escaping things around us until we die from this earth.

God may be expanding His kingdom.... but very few will ever see it or experience it these days.

YES, 4WD, it IS fearmongering to say that evils that are even worse than the first-century Great Tribulation period will happen in the not-too-distant-future.  That is impossible, and it is because that particular kind of unequalled and unprecedented tribulation has already happened back in AD 66-70.  With Christ's promise in Matthew 24:21, a tribulation period such as that one WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN IN HISTORY - "NO, NOR EVER SHALL BE".  You can stake your life on that promise that the generation which put the Son of God to death by wicked hands experienced the ultimate punishment for that ultimate crime.

You have a disturbing way of ranking evil in this world, 4WD.  You can name all the evil despots and their tyrannical tenures throughout history, but none of them has ever committed the supreme offense of crucifying the incarnate Son of God Himself.  That distinction goes to the first-century generation of Jews which crucified their own prophesied Messiah, Christ Jesus, and called down that blood curse on their own heads and that of their children.  Yet this supreme act of offense against God Himself in the person of Christ Jesus by that one generation's "WICKED HANDS" was done "BY THE DETERMINATE COUNSEL AND FOREKNOWLEDGE OF GOD", according to Acts 2:23.   God decreed this to happen, yet the guilt for that wicked act fell on the perpetrators themselves. 

It's an eternal marvel and a wonder that God can take that ultimate offense of mankind against Himself and turn it into the ultimate means of blessing for mankind's salvation.  The ultimate good was alchemized out of the ultimate evil.  Do you really think that anything less than that ultimate crime that you can list as a despicable wicked act of man (with full blame for their wicked actions) cannot also be utilized by God to further His own kingdom in this world?  If you think not, then you need to expand your faith in the God you serve.

Rella, speaking of God's kingdom in this world - if you think that "very few will ever see it or experience it in these days", then your news feed is inadequate.  You know as well as I that the mantra of the news programs is "if it bleeds, it leads".  Disasters always make front page coverage.  Nice stories don't sell as well.  The growth of God's kingdom in this world is the last concern of the reporters.   Why would you expect the run-of-the-mill, unconverted reporter to mention this? 

This kingdom growth is something that must be taken on faith in the God who promised it multiple times.  It matters not if you can perceive it with your own eyes (which are limited in scope).  The Holy Spirit's work takes place in more locations than you can recognize by just reading the available news for the day.    You are sounding very much like the prophet Elijah who thought that he alone was left to speak for God in the land of Israel.  What did God tell him?  "I have reserved seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal".   Faith will always believe that God is doing more behind the scenes than we are aware of. 

: 3 Resurrections  Tue Nov 22, 2022 - 09:44:50YES, 4WD, it IS fearmongering to say that evils that are even worse than the first-century Great Tribulation period will happen in the not-too-distant-future.

No, not fearmongering sir, it is called believing God's testimony over man's twisted perversion of the truth.

: 3 Resurrections on: Today at 09:44:50that evils that are even worse than the first-century Great Tribulation period will happen in the not-too-distant-future.  That is impossible, and it is because that particular kind of unequalled and unprecedented tribulation has already happened back in AD 66-70.

there was very little tribulation in 66-70 A.D. and it was very limited to a very small part of the world. That tribulation (if you insist on calling that four short years a GREAT TRIBULATION) was a more physical tribulation whereas, the latter-day biblical prophesied tribulation by Daniel, Christ, Paul and John is spiritual in nature, not physical. It is the time when false prophets shall be turned loose upon the WORLD of antichrist folks, both religious and nonreligious. The Devil (whom you think was destroyed in 70 A.D.) will be given his power unrestrained to go out and deceive the whole world in destroying God's people and bible truth, but, he shall be destroyed at the second coming of Jesus Christ. Revelation 20:1-15;

: Paul2nd Thessalonians 1:6-9~"Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"

: 3 Resurrections on: Today at 09:44:50With Christ's promise in Matthew 24:21, a tribulation period such as that one WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN IN HISTORY - "NO, NOR EVER SHALL BE". 

3 R's~that short period of time is not to be compared to what shall come in the latter days of the times of Christ. 2nd Timothy 3:1-4:5 describes the times of the latter days of Christianity ""This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come". So much worse than 70 A.D.

: 3 Resurrections on: Today at 09:44:50SO much worse than 70 A.D.

We use the WHOLE NT, without rubber-stamping certain scriptures FULFILLED 70 A.D.

: 3 Resurrections on: Today at 09:44:50That distinction goes to the first-century generation of Jews which crucified their own prophesied Messiah, Christ Jesus, and called down that blood curse on their own heads and that of their children.  Yet this supreme act of offense against God Himself in the person of Christ Jesus by that one generation's "WICKED HANDS" was done "BY THE DETERMINATE COUNSEL AND FOREKNOWLEDGE OF GOD", according to Acts 2:23.   God decreed this to happen, yet the guilt for that wicked act fell on the perpetrators themselves.

I'm going to tell you what I told JRC (I think you know well, it is fair to say) thirty-five plus years ago when he tried to say the exact same thing to me. The generation living in Jesus' day was most likely the MOST spiritual group of men/women that at one time ever lived on this earth at a given time! Consider; John the Baptist, the apostles, and a thousand upon thousands of righteous folks who WERE CONVERTED in the early stage of the church at Jerusalem. It is very hard to find truly FIFTY Holy Ghost filled believers in our day at any given place on this earth which has billions of more people than they had in 70 A.D. Yes they killed the Prince of glory, but he would NOT EVEN BE ALLOWED to speak publicly in our day, pretty sure of that. Evil men have wax worse and worse to where we are now living, very dangerous times to live in~ just as Paul said it would be.

I rush through this very quickly but may come back tomorrow and be much more detailed than I was today, to many people here that desires my presence.

: 3 Resurrections  Tue Nov 22, 2022 - 10:06:20Rella, speaking of God's kingdom in this world - if you think that "very few will ever see it or experience it in these days", then your news feed is inadequate. 

My source of truth and yours should be, the word of God~by saying this, I believe you look to God's word, but through the lens of your own creation, which obviously is keeping you in the dark on this doctrine.

: 3 Resurrections Reply #9 on: Yesterday at 10:06:20 This kingdom growth is something that must be taken on faith in the God who promised it multiple times.  It matters not if you can perceive it with your own eyes (which are limited in scope). 

Every truth must be taken by faith in God's testimony, not man~so this we can agree. So, base on God's testimony, what does he have to say concerning the days leading up to his return~I trust you still believe in at least this truth, for a full-blown preterist does not, as you well know.

: JESUS CHRISTLuke 18:8~"I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

I would say, very little, and if he prolonged his coming , then NO FLESH would be saved with the true knowledge of the truth, even now it is scarce.

: JESUS CHRISTMatthew 24:22-24~"And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

Yes, I agree God has his seven thousand in just about every generation that has lived on this earth, yet in the final days before Jesus' coming, faith/truth is going to be far apart on this earth, almost to a point where many (saints) will be isolated from each other.

: 3 Resurrections Reply #9 on: Yesterday at 10:06:20Faith will always believe that God is doing more behind the scenes than we are aware of.

That is so, yet we have so many scriptures that testified of the latter days of the times of Christ and what they entail, spiritual speaking.

2nd Timothy 3:1-4:4~"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy. Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was. But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

PLEASE do not tell me that this was fulfilled 70. A.D. What are these scriptures saying to you? Do you see this happening in our day on a very large scale?

To me~this is so true of our day, if it has ever been true. These are very dangerous times in which we are now living in.

RB, you are taking Christ's rhetorical question ("When the Son of Man cometh shall He find faith on the earth?") and applying it to the wrong period of time on the calendar and to the wrong audience.  "The EARTH" (tes ges) in this verse referred to the LAND of Israel in Christ's days.  Did you never read Paul speaking of the small "remnant" of ethnic Israelites which would become believers? ("Even so then at this present time also" - in first century times - "there is a remnant according to the election of grace...") It was the ethnic nation of Israel's people of the first-century generation which had very few - an elect remnant - who would receive Jesus Christ as being their prophesied Messiah.  ("He came unto His own, and His own received Him not...")   

Contrary to what you think, that first-century generation was not the most spiritual of all time.  Christ and the apostles called it "this wicked and perverse generation", among whom the believers were to shine like lights in contrast to the darkness. 

You are misapplying this rhetorical question of Christ's about not finding faith on the earth, and are thinking that at the close of fallen man's history on this planet, that the gospel's message will be almost totally ineffectual across the world.  Not so.

THIS IS NOT WHAT CHRIST AND THE SCRIPTURES PROMISED.

Scripture gives us the examples of leaven, the mustard seed, the growing "stone" kingdom, and "of the INCREASE of His government and of His peace there shall be NO END".  Also that Christ said the church He would set up would be able to prevail against even the gates of Hell.  Every one of these examples show us the STEADY INCREASE of God's kingdom in this world up until the final resurrection and judgment.  These scripture examples are totally against your doom-and-gloom scenario.  You yourself cannot possibly know of every individual coming to faith in our current generation.  Even with the internet, you cannot possibly know every location where the Holy Spirit is spreading its influence even today.  Do you think that the Holy Spirit cannot penetrate even the hardline Muslim communities?  I contend that these locations are showing and will continue to show trophies of Christ's redeeming work.

And if you think that the OP list of the vials of God's wrath being poured out is destined for our future, you haven't read Revelation carefully enough.  In those Revelation 15-16 chapters, those vials were to be poured out at the same time that John saw those standing on the "sea of glass" in heaven WHO WERE SINGING THE SONG OF MOSES (Revelation 15:3).

Don't you realize what that "Song of Moses" entails?  Moses taught this song in Deuteronomy 32:1-43 to the nation of Israel's people so that this "song" would be a witness against them in their "LATTER END", when their "power" was gone.   That "Song of Moses" was a prediction of God's VENGEANCE on the ethnic children of Israel for their abominations in going after other gods and forgetting the Lord their God.   God would kindle a fire in His anger that would burn unto the lowest hell, and consume the earth with its increase, and (literally) set on fire the foundations of the mountains upon which Jerusalem sat. 

You can't take this "Song of Moses" judgment on ethnic Israel for its betrayal, rejection, and murder of their prophesied Messiah and mistakenly apply it to our future.  We are not ethnic Israel of the OC.  We are the spiritual "Israel of God" under the NC.  God predicted of disobedient, OC, ethnic Israel that "I will slay thee and call my servants by another name" (Isaiah 65:15).   

The 7 vials of judgment poured out in Revelation 16 were a repetition of God's predicted judgments of His people in the "Song of Moses" that were going to fall on that first-century generation of ethnic Israelites during their "LATTER END" (Deuteronomy 32:29).   That "latter end" came and went back in the AD 66-70 era.  And yes, it DID include massive spiritual oppression and deception - not just physical disasters.  Christ had promised that the demonic realm would descend upon "THIS WICKED GENERATION" in its "last state", making it increasingly oppressed by the Satanic realm in seven-fold levels more wicked that their "first state" when Christ was among them casting out devils right and left (Matthew 12:43-45).   

The "perilous times" during those "last days" Paul was warning Timothy about (written around AD 67) were conditions that Timothy himself was then facing.  II Timothy's "last days"  had turned into "THE LAST HOUR" by the time John was writing I John 2:18.  You are stretching scripture's time comparisons out of all recognition to say that this "last HOUR" in I John 2:18 at the close of Timothy's "last days" has been continuing to linger for over 2,000 years.   

In spite of these 7 vial judgments being already fulfilled back in the AD 66-70 time period, I have made no secret of my estimation of scripture's predictions for conditions in our own time.  many years before Covid showed up, I was posting here on this website that there would be worldwide conditions that would cause the nations of the world to implode around the transition over to the last, 7th millennium of fallen man's history on this planet.  That 7th millennium will crank up in 2033.  We are approaching that point rapidly, and the surge in the world's chaotic conditions leading up to that point fits perfectly with the millennial patterns I see in scripture.   God has a plan, and it will unfold exactly as He has determined it will do.

But as I said above - God can and will use even the most vile settings to create growth for His kingdom in this world.  If you can't see that, then you also need an increase in your faith.  Take the prophet Habakkuk for an example.  That prophet had faith to spare - even in the face of the worst national conditions ever for His people (Habakkuk 3:17-19).

I'll answer you in the morning, the Lord willing~btw~I'm chomping at the bit!

: 3 Resurrections on: Today at 12:03:14 God has a plan, and it will unfold exactly as He has determined it will do.

I agree with you on this statement. Later...RB

: 3 Resurrections  Tue Nov 22, 2022 - 09:44:50
You have a disturbing way of ranking evil in this world, 4WD.  You can name all the evil despots and their tyrannical tenures throughout history, but none of them has ever committed the supreme offense of crucifying the incarnate Son of God Himself. 

I want to be very careful here.  The supreme offense, and indeed it was, is the supreme offense because of who was the offended party, namely Jesus Christ the Son of God.  It was not the supreme offense because of who committed the offense.

: 3 Resurrections  Tue Nov 22, 2022 - 09:44:50 Yet this supreme act of offense against God Himself in the person of Christ Jesus by that one generation's "WICKED HANDS" was done "BY THE DETERMINATE COUNSEL AND FOREKNOWLEDGE OF GOD", according to Acts 2:23.   God decreed this to happen, yet the guilt for that wicked act fell on the perpetrators themselves.

And here I think you need to be very careful. Acts 2:23 cannot be taken, as you seem to do, as a declaration that the crucifixion of the Son of God was at the direction of God Himself.  It was not. That God used what He knew would happen does not mean that God caused it to happen.  What did Jesus say of those who had crucified Him?  He said, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." I do not think that Jesus lied about that.  I believe that they truly did not know and did not believe that they were crucifying the Son of God.  If that was not the case, then Jesus would not have asked God to forgiven them. That does not mitigate against the crime they committed; they were guilty.  However, I do not believe the same can be said of Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Mao Zedong and the rest of such evil dictators. How God measures the evil that men do is up to God.  But I believe that measure includes the mind and intent of the perpetrator. 

: 3 Resurrections  Wed Nov 23, 2022 - 12:03:14
God has a plan, and it will unfold exactly as He has determined it will do.

: RB  Wed Nov 23, 2022 - 14:56:20
I agree with you on this statement.

I agree that God has a plan.  I agree that plan will be carried out as God has determined.  But you both need to be very careful here.  It appears to me that you both see God as causing what happens rather than reacting to what happens and using it.  It is the common fallacy of equating foreknowledge of God with the predestination by God.  That common fallacy is at the crux of so much of what is wrong in the understanding of the prophecies concerning the end times and indeed so much of what is wrong in the understanding of God's plan of salvation.

Was the determinant counsel or plan of God spoken of in Acts 2:23 that the men who crucified Jesus would do so?  Yes, but it was not at God's direction that they did.  The plan was not that they would crucify Jesus; rather, the plan was that God would use what He foreknew that they would do. That is a critical difference.

: 4WD  Thu Nov 24, 2022 - 04:59:22I want to be very careful here.  The supreme offense, and indeed it was, is the supreme offense because of who was the offended party, namely Jesus Christ the Son of God.  It was not the supreme offense because of who committed the offense. And here I think you need to be very careful. Acts 2:23 cannot be taken, as you seem to do, as a declaration that the crucifixion of the Son of God was at the direction of God Himself.  It was not. That God used what He knew would happen does not mean that God caused it to happen.  What did Jesus say of those who had crucified Him?  He said, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." I do not think that Jesus lied about that.  I believe that they truly did not know and did not believe that they were crucifying the Son of God.  If that was not the case, then Jesus would not have asked God to forgiven them. That does not mitigate against the crime they committed; they were guilty.  However, I do not believe the same can be said of Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Mao Zedong and the rest of such evil dictators. How God measures the evil that men do is up to God.  But I believe that measure includes the mind and intent of the perpetrator.

4WD, I probably will not be far from what you are saying, but may word it a little differently. God does not choose certain individuals to do sinful acts, even those he may choose the time of his Son's death. What he does do is he does not stop the evil in their hearts from doing what they naturally would do~so in this sense Christ's death was indeed predetermined by God, as far as time and with the very person living at that time, and God knowing every single thought before they ever had them, and he just left them to themselves to carry out the evil that LIVED in their unregenerate hearts. By His wisdom and power, he used their own wickedness to accomplish his desire plan perfectly, which was for the salvation of his elect.

: 4WDrather than reacting to what happens and using it.

He did not react to their afterthoughts AND DEEDS...he planned KNOWING every thought of what they would do, WHEN LEFT to themselves before they even had them in time. We must not limit his power.

Just an added thought here.  You said,

: RB  Thu Nov 24, 2022 - 06:18:41We must not limit his power.

That is true.  But you do limit His power.  According to you God simply doesn't have the power to actually communicate with the unregenerated. That is not true.

That is so true 4WD but I for the life of me with all the scriptures teaching that cannot see how RB can't see it.

: 4WD  Thu Nov 24, 2022 - 10:21:50
Just an added thought here.  You said,That is true.  But you do limit His power.  According to you God simply doesn't have the power to actually communicate with the unregenerated. That is not true.

4WD, oh, God CAN communicate to them, it is they  who WILL NOT hear, they closed their eyes and ears to his word~God must regenerate them so THEY CAN see, hear, and obey!

: yogi bear  Thu Nov 24, 2022 - 11:27:21
That is so true 4WD but I for the life of me with all the scriptures teaching that cannot see how RB can't see it.

Yogi, let me ask you a question: who made the difference between those who becomes a friend of God and those who do not. Is it God communicating to them and to others he does not? Or, is it that some of themselves make the difference. Help me out.

RB, Paul answers that for you let me direct to his answer.

Romans 10:11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."

14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!"

One of these days, I might start a new topic on the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of the unregenerated. Maybe after Christmas and New Year holidays.

4WD, I think that is a wonderful idea. I will be very interested in your study. Waiting patiently to see this thread.

: yogi bear  Thu Nov 24, 2022 - 17:36:39
RB, Paul answers that for you let me direct to his answer.

Romans 10:11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."

14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!"

My man yogi, you did not answer my question, and neither did Paul with the scriptures YOU QUOTED, like to try again, I'll give you a second chance to redeem yourself. :

: RB who believes in such scriptures as 1st Corinthians 4:7who made the difference between those who becomes a friend of God and those who do not. Is it God communicating to them and to others he does not? Or, is it that some of themselves make the difference. Help me out.

: yogi bear  Thu Nov 24, 2022 - 18:57:26
4WD, I think that is a wonderful idea. I will be very interested in your study. Waiting patiently to see this thread.

That would be a wonderful Christmas present for me from you. I would love to post some of our discussion on my reddit community forum for others to join in all over the world.    https://www.reddit.com/r/OldPaths/

who made the difference between those who becomes a friend of God and those who do not. Is it God communicating to them and to others he does not? Or, is it that some of themselves make the difference. Help me out.

RB, I am not sure if I understand what you are asking. What I think you are asking is What makes the difference in who is saved? is it that God calls some and not others or is it free will?

If that is your question then my answer is God calls all through the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Therefore the answer I gave is your answer;

Romans 10:11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!"

God calls every person through the gospel of Christ, the sinner hears this gospel carried forth by preachers as we are told by Paul and obeys the gospel as confirmed by Paul in Romans 6:17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

Those that hear and do not obey chose for themselves to reject the grace offered in their behalf.

: 3 Resurrections  Sun Nov 20, 2022 - 10:21:24
All of the above is ancient history, and already fulfilled.  Every bit of it.

Amo, the you tube selection you submitted is nothing but fear-mongering that ignores God's repeated promises to grow His kingdom in this world. 

It matters not what the subversive plans of men are to establish a one-world government.  God has no such design to allow this, since He has already smashed Daniel's statue of world government powers into dust long ago.  There is no other "statue" of world government powers that has replaced that one.  The "stone" kingdom of Christ is the only one that will grow and eventually fill the earth - as promised by God Himself.

Stick your head back into the sands of delusion within which you have buried it, I didn't mean to cause you to pull it out. Just keep sucking the tit of that bottle of warm milk you are sucking on. Tell yourself you are now in this world living in the everlasting kingdom of God, and don't worry be happy. Tell everyone else to do the same, and just do whatever the leaders of this world today tell you to do, as they are the leaders of the Kingdom of God of course. Nothing to warn anyone about, all the bible warnings were for people in the past not us or you. Sing yourself these sweet lullabies, and go back to sleep. Zzzzzzzzzzzzeeeees. Good night.

: RB  Thu Nov 24, 2022 - 16:15:50
4WD, oh, God CAN communicate to them, it is they  who WILL NOT hear, they closed their eyes and ears to his word~God must regenerate them so THEY CAN see, hear, and obey!

No, RB, according to you it was God who imputed Adam's sin unto them such that they could not see and hear and then, when He could, He didn't bother to regenerate them so they could see and hear.  Sorry, RB, but in your scenario, it is God, and only God, who causes their inability.  And left in that condition, according to you, they cannot see and hear.  And that is just wrong.  That is not at all consistent with God's character.

: 4WD  Mon Nov 28, 2022 - 03:55:45No, RB, according to you it was God who imputed Adam's sin unto them such that they could not see and hear and then, when He could, He didn't bother to regenerate them so they could see and hear.  Sorry, RB, but in your scenario, it is God, and only God, who causes their inability.  And left in that condition, according to you, they cannot see and hear.  And that is just wrong.  That is not at all consistent with God's character.

Well, you do not follow very well what others are saying. When God created Adam and made him the representative or federal head of his posterity, we IN ADAM possess the very SAME qualities which God created Adam with! Our opportunity to obey was the most righteous opportunity flesh and blood could have had. Sin was not in Adam's flesh as it is in our fallen nature we all are born into this world with through Adam, the image he took on after his disobedience!

So, do not twist and pervert what I say to make your rejection of the truth look like a righteous deed and the truth that we believe in and teach an evil gospel.

:  4WD on: Today at 03:55:45[size=10ptNo, RB, according to you it was God who imputed Adam's sin unto them such that they could not see and hear ][/size]

Sir, that's the results of Adam's disobedience! Genesis 5:3 is in our Bible to TEACH US THIS TRUTH! Again....shame on you for twisting the truth to make your rejection of it as a righteous act!

: 4WD on: Today at 03:55:45Sorry, RB, but in your scenario, it is God, and only God, who causes their inability.

Adam is the cause of our FIRST DEATH! Jesus Christ came and saved his people from the power of the second death, which is the lake of fire where sinners shall perish.

: 4WD on: Today at 03:55:45That is not at all consistent with God's character

The manner in which you attempt to present it is not, but if we follow God's testimony of the truth, it fits perfectly, and truly exalt the wisdom, power, and the grace of God to sinners who were at enmity against him BECAUSE of Adam's disobedience.

: 4WD on: Today at 03:55:45when He could, He didn't bother to regenerate them so they could see and hear.

God is not in debt to any person, and does not owe anyone mercy~they sinned against him, all are at HIS MERCY through the fall of our head~Adam, if he so please to show his mercy and to some he does, to others he does not. Romans nine is very clear on this subject.

Romans 9:14-24~"What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"

God hardened folks like Pharaoh of old by not showing them mercy, their hearts naturally hardens itself against God without God's mercy showed toward them. It IS of God's mercy that one's heart is softened toward him, and another is left to be hardened.

WHY do you even think this is unfair? What is it about YOU that causes you to have hard thoughts against God's free mercy? Do you truly think you have a right to it?   

: RB  Mon Nov 28, 2022 - 14:13:09
Well, you do not follow very well what others are saying. When God created Adam and made him the representative or federal head of his posterity, we IN ADAM possess the very SAME qualities which God created Adam with! Our opportunity to obey was the most righteous opportunity flesh and blood could have had. Sin was not in Adam's flesh as it is in our fallen nature we all are born into this world with through Adam, the image he took on after his disobedience!

I follow very well what you are saying.  My point in all of this is that whatever our nature is, fallen or not, through Adam or not, must be precisely as God created it to be.  No one, and I mean no one, has the power to change God's creation.  So if Adam lost God's image and we then are created in Adam's image, not God's image, then that must be as God created it to be.  So, I repeat; according to your view of things, it is God who imputes Adam's sin to the rest of us and then either regenerates or not according as He chooses.  You can speak the words that "we sinned in Adam"; but you and I both know that neither you nor I actually did anything.  If we have sinned "in Adam", that actually can only mean that God has imputed the sin of Adam unto us.

: RB  Mon Nov 28, 2022 - 14:13:09So, do not twist and pervert what I say to make your rejection of the truth look like a righteous deed and the truth that we believe in and teach an evil gospel. Sir, that's the results of Adam's disobedience! Genesis 5:3 is in our Bible to TEACH US THIS TRUTH!

RB, I am not twisting anything.  I am only describing what follows rationally from your own words; which of course you don't want to admit.  As far as Genesis 5:3 is concerned, you are claiming that likeness after Adam's image is Adam's spirit dead in sin.  Again, if that were true, which it is not, then it must be according to God's creation that such could even occur. In reality, the only image which Adam can pass along is that image according to the manner in which God created.  So again, only God can create.

: RB  Mon Nov 28, 2022 - 14:13:09Again....shame on you for twisting the truth to make your rejection of it as a righteous act! Adam is the cause of our FIRST DEATH!

That of course might have been the case had not Jesus changed it, and change it Jesus did. That is the whole point of Paul's message in Romans 5.

Rom 5:18  Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19  For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

In every FOR AS/EVEN SO construction, it is the second half, the EVEN SO, that is the message.  If the FOR AS was a condition imposed at birth upon all men, then the EVEN SO is the condition imposed at birth upon all men and that is the message. That is the way the FOR AS/EVEN SO construction works.

You, RB, are the cause of your FIRST DEATH, not me, not your father, not grandfather, not your great grandfather, as far back as you want to go, all the way back to Adam.  Just you RB. And Jesus saw to that by His obedience at the cross in His death.  Jesus' obedience nullified Adam's disobedience. Anything less than that would mean that Jesus' obedience was less efficacious than was Adam's disobedience.  That is in direct defiance of verses 15,16 and 17 which declare the act of Jesus to be MORE efficacious than the act of Adam.

: RB  Mon Nov 28, 2022 - 14:13:09
WHY do you even think this is unfair?

WHY would you question what I think is fair, when it is you who thinks God imputes the sins of one man unto a completely different man.  That wouldn't be fair.  And God is fair and He doesn't do that. God declared "The soul who sins shall die" (Ezek 18).

: RB  Mon Nov 28, 2022 - 14:13:09What is it about YOU that causes you to have hard thoughts against God's free mercy? Do you truly think you have a right to it?

I have no hard thoughts against God's free mercy.  Such thoughts are yours.  You take great pride in the fact that you think you have been chosen as one of a few out of many who weren't. I have no right to it and neither do you.  All either of us have is God's promise of that free mercy.

: 4WD  Mon Nov 28, 2022 - 16:18:01I follow very well what you are saying.  My point in all of this is that whatever our nature is, fallen or not, through Adam or not, must be precisely as God created it to be.  No one, and I mean no one, has the power to change God's creation.

It is impossible to change God's creation, but it is not impossible to receive the wages of sin in disobeying God's commandment as Adam did, not only upon himself, but upon his posterity whom God made him the head of, acting on their behalf in a nature which God created, which he gives us a testimony..."

Genesis 1:31~"And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."

4WD, this includes MAN~God created Adam after His image, in true holiness, wisdom, knowledge, and understanding, and then placed him in a perfect world with only ONE commandment to keep~and then, left him to himself, to his own free will to obey~and we know the end of that story, (both by God's testimony to us, and our own sinful nature in which we all live in, a body of SIN and DEATH) which I believe lasted no more than when God left Adam and Eve to themselves~another post for another day. As far as Adam being our federal head before God, we have gone over Romans 5 verse by verse with you more than once, so I will forbear doing so again at this time~but will only add this verse:

1st Corinthians 15:22~"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

You eject God's testimony that IN ADAM ALL die, you believe that Adam's sin only effected him and not his seed after him, which both scriptures and life tells us that you are so wrong in this doctrine which you embraced and are teaching others to do likewise. If ALL die in Adam, and they DID, then all sinned in Adam, since the wages of sin is deathRomans 6:23.

: 4WD Reply #30 on: Yesterday at 16:18:01 So if Adam lost God's image and we then are created in Adam's image, not God's image, then that must be as God created it to be.

You are leaving out Adam's fall into sin and condemnation, in which he LOST God image, and took on the image of the devil who deceived him and became his captive servant doing his will and became at once at enmity against God, per so many scriptures, which we have provided to you several times over. He just did not become an enemy of God, which is bad enough, he became at ENMITY against him, or at war against All of God's attributes. Not only is this true of Adam, but of all that comes forth from his loins. Likeness always produce likeness in God's creation. Consider Genesis one "After HIS KIND"![quote ] So, I repeat; according to your view of things, it is God who imputes Adam's sin to the rest of us[/quote]Sir, it is not according to "my view", it IS God's testimony of the truth.

Romans 5:12~"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

Death passed upon ALL men for or, because of, all have sinned IN ADAM, even has death passed upon those who had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression which is speaking of INFANTS!

Romans 5:14~"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

So, it is not Red Baker's doctrine, but God's word which declares this truth.

: 4WD Reply #30 on: Yesterday at 16:18:01 then either regenerates or not according as He chooses.

We are elected according to the foreknowledge of God, meaning he KNEW if he did not elect some, then NONE would have ever come on their own, so he did so according to his own will, which is NOT indebted to anyone, including you and certainly not to me either. I had my PERFECT opportunity IN ADAM, but lost it~the best chance I could possibly have, not possessing a sinful nature at enmity against God.

: 4WD Reply #30 on: Yesterday at 16:18:01You can speak the words that "we sinned in Adam"; but you and I both know that neither you nor I actually did anything.

God said I was IN ADAM, that is good enough for me.  If you reject this truth, then it is IMPOSSIBLE for you to see the truth of the gospel how each and everyone of God's elect were IN CHRIST as our federal head~what he did, they DID, all that happened to Christ is said to be true of each and every elect sinner IN CHRIST. We are forgiven for CHRIST'S SAKE since we were IN CHRIST. We posted the scriptures above which said these words:

Romans 5:14~Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

So, in what sense was Adam a figure of Christ?   The resemblance, on account of which Adam is regarded as the type of
Christ, consists in this, that Adam communicated to those whom he represented what belonged to him, and that Christ also communicated to those whom He represents what belonged to him. There is, however, a great dissimilarity between what the one and the other communicates by his disobedience Adam has communicated sin and death, and by his obedience Christ has communicated righteousness and life; and as Adam was the author of the natural life of his posterity, so Christ is the author of
the spiritual life which His people now possess, and which they shall enjoy at their resurrection, so that, in accordance with these analogies, He is called the last Adam. If, then, the actual obedience of Christ is thus imputed to all those of whom He is the head, and is counted to them for their justification as their own obedience; in the same way, the actual sin of Adam, who is the type of Christ, is imputed to all those of whom he is the head, and is counted for their condemnation, as their own sin.

: 4WD Reply #30 on: Yesterday at 16:18:01RB, I am not twisting anything.  I am only describing what follows rationally from your own words; which of course you don't want to admit.  As far as Genesis 5:3 is concerned, you are claiming that likeness after Adam's image is Adam's spirit dead in sin.  Again, if that were true, which it is not, then it must be according to God's creation that such could even occur. In reality, the only image which Adam can pass along is that image according to the manner in which God created.  So again, only God can create.

I'm going to cut this short since my post is already getting too long. Exactly what Adam communicated to his posterity, I will only say this, he communicated~ BODY OF SIN and DEATH, now if that includes a dead spirit toward God, then so be it, yet I know he communicated a body of flesh and blood that is at enmity against its creator, that much I know. I have 18 grandchildren, and they ALL were born IN SIN, we had to train them to love, to think of others before themselves, etc. etc., and they still have a hard time of doing so, it is almost a losing battle, and it is so with all other children born with Adam's sinful nature he took on after his fall into sin.

: 4WD Reply #30 on: Yesterday at 16:18:01I have no hard thoughts against God's free mercy.  Such thoughts are yours.  You take great pride in the fact that you think you have been chosen as one of a few out of many who weren't. I have no right to it and neither do you. 

Nice try, but you are so wrong. I take NO pride in the fact that God has an elect people out of His pure mercy, and I daily seek to make my calling and election sure, living up to God's commandment, which commandment I fall way short of every single day, almost every single hour.

All either of us have is God's promise of that free mercy.

You are so wrong again~no, we have God's OATH and PROMISES of grace to the seed of Jesus Christ, based upon what he did for us to secure our right to enteral life! It is NOT a promise "dangling before us", to see if we would accept or not, it is the SURE MERCIES OF DAVID to his seed based on Jesus' obedience FOR US. So much could be said, but I'm stopping for now.

: RB  Tue Nov 29, 2022 - 05:41:47
It is impossible to change God's creation, but it is not impossible to receive the wages of sin in disobeying God's commandment as Adam did, not only upon himself, but upon his posterity whom God made him the head of, acting on their behalf in a nature which God created, which he gives us a testimony..."

All of that basically says that God imputes the sin of Adam upon the rest of humanity.  God is the one who does that.  That is wrong.  God does not impute the sins of one upon another.

: RB  Tue Nov 29, 2022 - 05:41:474WD, this includes MAN~God created Adam after His image, in true holiness, wisdom, knowledge, and understanding, and then placed him in a perfect world with only ONE commandment to keep~and then, left him to himself, to his own free will to obey~and we know the end of that story, (both by God's testimony to us, and our own sinful nature in which we all live in, a body of SIN and DEATH) which I believe lasted no more than when God left Adam and Eve to themselves~another post for another day. As far as Adam being our federal head before God, we have gone over Romans 5 verse by verse with you more than once, so I will forbear doing so again at this time~

I will comment on a couple of things here.  First, nothing is said about Adam created in true holiness, wisdom, knowledge and understanding.  He didn't even know good from evil.  And there is nothing said about Adam given only ONE commandment.  Both of those are simply what you wish to read into the scriptures.

: RB  Tue Nov 29, 2022 - 05:41:47but will only add this verse:

With respect to 1 Corinthians 15:22, that has nothing to do with Adam's sin. All that is saying is that humans die physically.  Adam was created.  That means Adam was finite.  By definition, nothing physical was ever created to exist forever. Only God is forever.  Physical death is a part of creation.  As created Adam had a finite life.  Only the tree of life, in the garden, could prevent Adam from dying physically.  That verse deals with physical death and resurrection.

: RB  Tue Nov 29, 2022 - 05:41:47 You eject God's testimony that IN ADAM ALL die,

No I do not reject God's testimony that in Adam all die.  I reject your interpretation what that actually means. It means that as a part of the human race, which comes from Adam, all die physically.  Nothing there says that is because Adam sinned.  Rather Adam died physically because he was ejected from the Garden and no longer had access to the tree of life.  That is, as God said, the reason that He ejected Adam from the Garden (Gen 3:22).

: RB  Tue Nov 29, 2022 - 05:41:47you believe that Adam's sin only effected him and not his seed after him, which both scriptures and life tells us that you are so wrong in this doctrine which you embraced and are teaching others to do likewise. If ALL die in Adam, and they DID, then all sinned in Adam,

You have misinterpreted the phrase in Adam, to mean more that it does.  It does not mean "because of Adam's sin"; rather it simply means being a descendent of Adam, i.e., being human.  Thus it means being human, all die.  That is not from Adam's sin, that is from God's creation. And it means being human, all sin.

: RB  Tue Nov 29, 2022 - 05:41:47since the wages of sin is death[/u][/i]Romans 6:23.

The wages of sin is spiritual death (Eph 2:1). Physical death is from God's creation.

: RB  Tue Nov 29, 2022 - 05:41:47You are leaving out Adam's fall into sin and condemnation, in which he LOST God image, and took on the image of the devil

I am not leaving anything out.  Nowhere does the Bible ever say that Adam lost God's image.  Nor does it ever say that Adam took on the image of the devil.

: RB  Tue Nov 29, 2022 - 05:41:47Death passed upon ALL men for or, because of, all have sinned IN ADAM, even has death passed upon those who had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression which is speaking of INFANTS! So, it is not Red Baker's doctrine, but God's word which declares this truth.

Again, you are imposing your own interpretation of the phrase IN ADAM to mean something it does not. And the verse you are alluding to doesn't present Adam as the reason for all sinning. RB says that, but the bible doesn't say that.

: RB  Tue Nov 29, 2022 - 05:41:47We are elected according to the foreknowledge of God, meaning he KNEW if he did not elect some, then NONE would have ever come on their own, so he did so according to his own will, which is NOT indebted to anyone, including you and certainly not to me either.

Again, that is an RBism, The Bible doesn't say that.  There is no place in the bible that says, God "KNEW if he did not elect some, then NONE would have ever come on their own".

: RB  Tue Nov 29, 2022 - 05:41:47I had my PERFECT opportunity IN ADAM,

Sorry, RB, but that is one really stupid statement.  You had no opportunity to do anything 6000 years ago.  You did have the opportunity, at some point in your life, to choose to obey nor not obey God's commands and you obviously choose not to obey and thus you sinned.

: RB  Tue Nov 29, 2022 - 05:41:47If you reject this truth, then it is IMPOSSIBLE for you to see the truth of the gospel how each and everyone of God's elect were IN CHRIST as our federal head~

You and your federal heads  --  just another Calvinist construct.

: RB  Tue Nov 29, 2022 - 05:41:47what he did, they DID,

Yet another really stupid statement, either with reference to Adam or Jesus.

Enough for now.

: 4WD  Tue Nov 29, 2022 - 08:08:01All of that basically says that God imputes the sin of Adam upon the rest of humanity.  God is the one who does that.  That is wrong.

Wrong? Based upon man's fairness? Actually, it shows the wisdom of God in making the first Adam the head/representative of his posterity that shall come forth of his lions. There is not a more righteous act that could have been put into motion than creating man after His image, and then putting ALL of his posterity under a covenant tor works in order to inherit eternal life, than the one God chose to set forth, and record for us to see in his word. Do you believe you have a better option, a more righteous one? Obviously you do, or you would believe and accept God's will/wisdom over yours. If you have a more righteous plan, then let me hear it. Would you rather be put under a covenant works WITH your sinful nature in order to inherit eternal life? NOT ME.

: 4WD Reply #32 on: Yesterday at 08:08:01 I will comment on a couple of things here.  First, nothing is said about Adam created in true holiness, wisdom, knowledge and understanding. 

He was created after God's image, which image consisted of wisdom, righteousness, knowledge! An image that God did not give to the rest of His creation. Besides, I KNOW what this image consisted of by understanding what the NEW MAN in Christ has been created in, which I have provided for you several times form Paul's writings which you jsut reject without even commenting on.

Ephesians 4:23,24~"And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

One more:

Colossians 3:10~"And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:"

: 4WD Reply #32 on: Yesterday at 08:08:01He didn't even know good from evil.  And there is nothing said about Adam given only ONE commandment.  Both of those are simply what you wish to read into the scriptures.

4WD, you are so wrong on so many important truths, no wonder you are mess up in your Soteriology. He knew, but allowed his wife to deceive him~Satan deceived Eve, and Adam allow his wife to lead him to disobey God. He sinned with his eyes open, unlike his wife, who was beguiled by the serpent.  They only had ONE commandment, which was no to eat of the tree in the midst of the beautiful garden. Many of the ten commandments did not even applied to them before their fall into sin.

: 4WD Reply #32 on: Yesterday at 08:08:01With respect to 1 Corinthians 15:22, that has nothing to do with Adam's sin. All that is saying is that humans die physically.  Adam was created.  That means Adam was finite.  By definition, nothing physical was ever created to exist forever. Only God is forever.  Physical death is a part of creation.  As created Adam had a finite life.  Only the tree of life, in the garden, could prevent Adam from dying physically.  That verse deals with physical death and resurrection.

First, it clearly said:

1st. Corinthians 15:22~"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

No, 4WD, IN ADAM all die~meaning when Adam sin, all his posterity DIE, spiritual, and eventually physically which will also cause them to die eternally in the lake of fire which IS the second death. Adam would have live forever IF he did not sin~for the wages of sin IS DEATH, which means he would have live if he had not sin, but truly that was impossible since both angels and men are NOT IMMUTABLE thereby, God's infinite knowledge knowing this truth, prepare a salvation through a covenant of GRACE to secure man's eternal salvation THROUGH Christ.

: 4WD Reply #32 on: Yesterday at 08:08:01No I do not reject God's testimony that in Adam all die.  I reject your interpretation what that actually means. It means that as a part of the human race, which comes from Adam, all die physically.  Nothing there says that is because Adam sinned.  Rather Adam died physically because he was ejected from the Garden and no longer had access to the tree of life.  That is, as God said, the reason that He ejected Adam from the Garden (Gen 3:22).

4WD, your understanding is against the Scriptures.

Romans 5:12~"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Bear with me, it's going to be detail so, there can be no misunderstanding of the truth in this scripture.

To this point in Romans, Paul has established all men guilty before God by virtue of their own sins in light of creation, providence, nature, conscience, and revelation of scripture (1:18 – 3:19,23).

The preceding context described the purely gratuitous salvation of helpless, ungodly enemies by the love of God in the sacrificial death and intercessory life of Jesus Christ for them (5:6-10).

The preceding verse specifically identified the atoning work of Jesus Christ (5:11), which implies and refers to the separation and enmity between God and men, which began in Eden by Adam's sin.

While there is reference to Israel's Day of Atonement, given his strategy, Paul will now show a greater enmity and separation that existed for 2500 years and was not remedied by bulls or goats.

The first Adam separated himself and us from God, and the second Adam Jesus reconciled us.

Adam's foolish efforts at clothing, hiding in the garden, and blaming God for Eve are just a few immediate symptoms of the effect of sin in his life that separated him (and us) from God.

Wherefore does not always draw a conclusion as directly or obviously as therefore, for it may instead introduce further evidence or explanation in line with the reasoning being pursued.

Wherefore~ Introducing a clause expressing a consequence or inference from what has just been stated: On which account; for which reason; which being the case; and therefore.

We may best view the connection here as Paul's further explanation of what atonement was needed, how guilt and enmity originated, how they were resolved, and the nature of it.

To show the origin and magnitude of the sin problem, Paul took his readers back to Adam, where a sin matter far exceeding total depravity and guilt before Moses' Law is found.

Paul's primary objective to this point has been the refutation of Jewish legalism in its error to seek justification with God by circumcision, Moses' Law, and connected Jewish traditions.

He first took the Jews back to Abraham to show their false confidence in Moses (4:1-25), for it was Abram whom God declared to be righteous on the evidence of his faith without the Law.

He then took them back to Adam in this place, for they were guilty long before Moses (5:12-14). Moses' Law was a Jewish privilege that proved man's sinfulness (3:19-20; 5:20), but there was condemning guilt by a law long before Moses ~God's first law to their father Adam (5:13).
Moses' Law was a Jewish privilege for fleshly sanctification before God (Heb 9:13), but how could or would such base sacrifices undo the covenant damage from their first father Adam!

As by one man~Here is the doctrine of representation~one man representing many men in the sight of God. Here is the doctrine of imputation~the act(s) of one man being applied legally/judicially to others. This doctrine is also called ancestral sin and federal headship of Adam and other manmade names.

Far beyond our own sins, or even if we were able to cover our own sins by some means, there is another sin issue far greater and earlier, which carried with it the very serious punishment of death.

Use of "as ... so" means, "As this occurred in this specified manner ... so this event also occurred that same specified way." This powerful form of grammar is found in verses 12,15,16,18, and 19.

This is no collective noun for mankind's sins, but rather the one man Adam, whose singular transgression and disobedience is clearly identified here and elsewhere (5:14-19; I Cor 15:22). This one man Adam was your representative without you choosing him ~ God chose Adam for you. This one man Adam is your representative without you knowing about him ~ imputation still applies.

Most men have lived and died without knowing Adam or believing in him or imputation of sin, but they are as guilty and condemned before God for Adam's sin as the greatest defender of original sin.

As I have said many times over: Whoever might be foolish enough to deny Adam's representation also denies Christ's salvation. For a related principle of representation, consider how Levi paid tithes to Melchisedec (Heb 7:9).

Sin entered into the world~The sin under consideration is Adam's transgression in Eden, which is clearly identified (5:14). God had made His covenant with Adam and warned him before creating Eve (Gen 2:17-25). Eve evilly listened to Satan and was judged for it (Genesis 3:16), but the covenant was with Adam.

Fussing about Eve bringing sin into the world is a foolish and unlearned question and striving about the law to no profit, for Satan brought a lie into the world before Eve or Adam ever sinned. These same kind of scorners want to know about Enoch and Elijah in light of Hebrews 9:27. Depending on context, either Adam or Eve were primarily the transgressors (5:14; Ist Timothy 2:14).

The guilt and condemnation of sin upon all human posterity was by Adam's sin (Genesis 2:17; 5:1).Satan belonged to another world, the angelic world in heaven, where he was unclean (Job 15:15).

And death by sin~Death is the necessary consequence and result of sin before a holy and righteous God (6:23). God told Adam very plainly for all to read that he would die if he ate the fruit (Genesis 2:17). Sin and death (Gen 2:17) were brought into the human world by Adam's sin (5:14; 6:23). Spiritual death came immediately (Genesis 2:17; Ephesains 2:1), physical death came 930 years later for Adam (Genesis 3:19; 5:5; Hebrews 9:27), and eternal death awaits final execution (Revelation 20:6,14).

There is more here than physical death, though important (Rom 5:14; I Corinthians 15:22), for the contrast and comparison throughout the passage indicate a more extensive consideration of death than that.

The leading context introduced the fullest extent of death in all component parts (5:6-11). The atonement by Jesus Christ securing peace with God has just been stated (5:11). The grace of God and the gift by grace (eternal life) by Jesus Christ is included (5:15). The free gift of justification of many offences is here, which goes beyond death (5:16). Abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reigning in life is here (5:17). Justification of life is more than just physical life, for it includes eternal life (5:18). Rather than just physical life and death, sin and righteousness are the contrast (5:19).

And so death passed upon all men~ All men are considered sinners by Adam's sin and must therefore die (Genesis 2:17; I Corinthians 15:22). Adam originally bore God's image; we now bear his fallen image (Genesis 5:1-3 cp I Corinthains15:49), but this depravity of nature is not the argument or thought here, rather our legal guilt and condemnation.


A judicial sentence was passed ~death was assigned to all men as the just and holy punishment, even to infants and ignorant (5:14), for Adam's singular sin in the Garden of Eden. We truly sinned in Adam, so we bear the sentence of that crime (and so death passed on us). Spiritual death came instantly for Adam and Eve, and we are born spiritually dead with the same wicked traits of self-righteousness, hiding, and blaming they quickly showed (Gen 2:17; Eph 2:1). Adam died physically 930 years later, and you will most certainly die a physical death unless Jesus Christ makes an exception of you by returning (Gen 3:19; 5:5; Eccl 3:20; 8:8; Heb 9:27; etc.).
Eternal death, called the second death in comparison to physical death, when the wicked shall be cast into hell for their sins, including Adam's sin (Heb 9:27; Rev 20:14; 21:8; Heb 6:2; Rom 2:5,16). The death considered ahead is legal condemnation contrasted to justification and righteousness, which includes all three aspects of death, as it did for Adam, though used singularly (5:18-19).

For that all have sinned~Grammatically, a reader may proceed from 5:12 to 5:18, where Paul took up after the parentheses. By temporarily ignoring the parentheses, the doctrine of representation is clearly seen, which again is the legal headship and covenant consequences of one person acting for many. For 5:18 draws a conclusion from the argument of 5:12-14 by virtue of its therefore. For 5:19 is the contextual argument of one man's disobedience making many sinners. Why do some good men argue without cause or basis that there is nothing here of original sin? If you were not to sin yourself, you would still be guilty as a sinner and condemned to the complete punishment of sin through your participation by representation in Adam's first sin in Eden.

God has imputed, charged or accounted, Adam's sin to the account of every human conceived. We are sinners in Adam naturally (Genesis 5:3; Eccl 7:29) and legally (Romans 5:18; Hebrews 7:9-10). Each one of the human race is legally guilty and punishable for eating the forbidden fruit. It is true that all men have sinned themselves, but that is not the point of this phrase at all. It is a fact that we have a totally depraved sin nature from Adam (Psalms 51:5; 58:3; Romans 3:9-19; Ephesaisn 2:1-3), but that is not the point of this phrase, verse, or passage at all. The doctrine of original sin is not a sacred cow we must protect, for we would reject it in a minute if we thought it contrary to scripture; we are slaves to the context, and the context speaks of one man's disobedience being imputed to the whole race, just as Jesus' obedience is imputed to God's elect.

What figure would there be of Christ, if Adam sinned and died for himself, and each man sinned and died because of his own sins? Should we conclude from that figure that Jesus secured His own righteousness by obedience, and we are to follow suit and do the same? Why would Paul belabor the point of one sin made many sinners, one sin made many dead, etc.? Where did the curse on all creation come from? By imputation or charge for Adam's sin or by nature's cooperation and participation in his same fault – sin. Come on, Albert Barnes, do better! Did Adam merely introduce sin into the world for you to see and consider it ... and Jesus introduced righteousness that way, or is there a much greater doctrine here of representation and imputation?

We totally reject any concept of cooperative, sympathetic, or consequential righteousness with Jesus Christ for our justification. We also reject any such relationship in the figure of Adam and his sin.

What about the actual words in the clause? Does the Spirit's use of that agree with our conclusion? Context usually determines grammar, not the other way around, especially in the use of such words as that, which have many varied grammatical uses e.g. conjunction, demonstrative pronoun, demonstrative adjective, demonstrative adverb, or relative pronoun. When Paul wrote of all men sinning themselves, he clearly wrote, "For all have sinned" (3:23). But the text does not say, "For all have sinned," because there is a demonstrative pronoun that placed in the clause by the Holy Spirit that demands a sense of all men sinning in agreement with what has already been stated ... "for by one man's sin all have sinned," or ... "for in this manner all have sinned," or ... "for by this means all have sinned," etc.

Why do babies die, if they have not done good or evil in regard to God's electing grace (Romans 9:13)? If this section is Adam introducing sin that men followed by their sins, it is redundant (1:18 – 3:20). Justification and eternal life by Jesus Christ is legal, unconditional, monergistic, so Adam is as well. If this section, 5:13-14, is other forms of condemnation, as conscience, it is redundant (1:18 – 3:20).

The constant appeal to ONE in this section both in condemnation and salvation demands imputation. Why do some good men argue weakly that there is nothing here in this passage of original sin? We can only speculate. Must they cover a false doctrine of salvation like baptismal regeneration, or the age of accountability, or related salvation heresies overthrown by original sin? We can only speculate. Are they terrified by a God so sovereign that He can choose their birth into a race already completely condemned by the sin of their first father? We can only speculate. Are they intimidated to answer mothers about children dying in infancy?We can only speculate. Are they afraid to admit the corollary of the doctrine – that Jesus Christ has saved a covenant people as unconditionally as Adam condemned the


Conclusion: We believe in original sin, for we accept the doctrine of representation and imputation found in Romans 5:12-19, which declares our guilt, death, and coming judgment for the disobedience of our sin representative, Adam.

We believe God designed and ordained in great wisdom the work of two Adams for two kinds of vessels.

We believe in unconditional justification and eternal life, for they and any related facets of salvation were secured by the singular obedience of Jesus Christ, Who was the representative and surety for His people.

We believe in total depravity from numerous other scriptures, though we understand it is not taught here.

But the Second Adam has done so much more that there must be three verses of contrasts (5:15-17), and though the Law of Moses was given to further aggravate sin and death, grace did much more abound!

Where did the curse on all creation come from? By imputation or charge for Adam's sin or by its cooperation and participation in his same fault ~ sin. It is by God's charge of sin on the universe!

RB, there is so little of that which is biblically correct.  I will come back to it later.  I have a doctor's appointment that I need to keep.

: RB  Wed Nov 30, 2022 - 08:19:50
Wrong? Based upon man's fairness?

First of all for the one who believes in God of the Bible, the only fairness is the fairness that comes from God.

: RBActually, it shows the wisdom of God in making the first Adam the head/representative of his posterity that shall come forth of his lions.

Actually, there is not one word in the bible about God making Adam the head/representative of anyone.  That is simply one more of your Augustinian/Calvinist constructs created to align with your false doctrines.

: RBDo you believe you have a better option, a more righteous one?

I most certainly do.  The one presented by God Himself.  The one where God doesn't condemn the entire company of humanity for the sins of one man.  Not only does God not condemn all humanity for what Adam did, God does not condemn even one other human being for what Adam did.  There was/is no need for God to do that.  Why?  Because, "... death spread to all men because all sinned-- " (Rom 5:13).

: RBIf you have a more righteous plan, then let me hear it.

You have heard it again and again, and you have read it from God's word, but it doesn't align with your TULIP scenario and therefore you reject it.

: RBWould you rather be put under a covenant works WITH your sinful nature in order to inherit eternal life? .

Why would I want that?  I am not in fact under a covenant works. to inherit eternal life.

: RBHe was created after God's image, which image consisted of wisdom, righteousness, knowledge! An image that God did not give to the rest of His creation. Besides, I KNOW what this image consisted of by understanding what the NEW MAN in Christ has been created in....

Interesting.  As stated by God, Adam was created without a knowledge of good and evil.  He obtained that after disobeying God and eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. You say that the God did not give to the rest of His creation the image that He gave to Adam. Where, exactly, did you read that?  Genesis 5:1-3 tells that God created Adam in His own likeness.  Nothing there says anything about Adam not having that image.  It then says Adam's son was born in Adam's likeness, after his image.  Again, there is nothing there that would even suggest that the Adam's likeness was any other than the likeness in which God created him.

: RBHe knew, but allowed his wife to deceive him~Satan deceived Eve, and Adam allow his wife to lead him to disobey God. He sinned with his eyes open, unlike his wife, who was beguiled by the serpent.

There are several red flags to be cast down with that statement.  He knew but she didn't? Where do you get that?  She was deceived by Satan, but he was only deceived by Eve.  You say that like there is a difference.  What? His sin was somehow not as bad as hers?  His eyes were open but hers were what? close? Where in the world to you get such stuff?

: RBThey only had ONE commandment, which was no to eat of the tree in the midst of the beautiful garden. Many of the ten commandments did not even applied to them before their fall into sin.

First, you have no idea at all what other commandments were given to Adam and Eve.  And second, it doesn't really matter if they did or didn't; the simple truth is they disobeyed the one identified in Genesis 3. Whether there were others is moot.  It only takes one.

: RBFirst, it clearly said: No, 4WD, IN ADAM all die~meaning when Adam sin, all his posterity DIE, spiritual,

Again, you are making stuff up.  All the expression, in Adam, which by the way occurs only once and that is in 1 Corinthians 15:22, is simply a signifying of being human.  That verse is, "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive". "In Adam" is the physical while "in Christ" is the spiritual. As a physical being we will die, as a spiritual being we will live. There is absolutely nothing in that verse that speaks about Adam's sin having anything to do with our dying.

In getting ready to exegete on Romans 5:12, you said,

: RBBear with me, it's going to be detail so, there can be no misunderstanding of the truth in this scripture.

You then proceeded to eisegete the absolutely worst bit of Calvinist doctrine I have yet seen.

Just for reference, Romans 5:12 says, (ESV)  Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned--

: RBThe first Adam separated himself and us from God

That is pure RB talk.  That is simply not in that verse anywhere.  And all your "explanation" goes south at that point.  while the sin of Adam did indeed cause some sort of a separation between Adam and God, it was not one of complete separation as you would indicate.  God continued to be able to converse with Adam and Adam understood quite well what God was saying.  There was no Total Depravity established in Adam by his sinning.  But even more, nothing about that one way or the other is discussed in that verse.  It says that "sin came into the world".  Here "the world" (as in John 3:16) is the world of mankind, the physical sphere of human beings; sin had already entered world of angels through the sin of Satan (1 Joh 3:8).  Paul adds here that death entered through sin.  As I have repeated here so often, the death that entered through sin was not physical death, but rather spiritual death.  I think it is well accepted that the physical death of the entire animal kingdom existed as a part of creation.  So clearly physical death was not introduced as a result of Adam's sin.  Moreover, from Genesis 3:22, it is self-evident that Adam's physical death was only an indirect result of his sin; Adam's physical death was the direct result of being ejected from the Garden and no longer had access to the fruit of the tree of life which had the property of sustaining physical life, i.e., the putting off of physical death.  Thus what entered the world as a result of Adam's sin was spiritual death; and it entered by way of Adam's spiritual death, his estrangement from God. 

Next, Paul says, so death spread to all men.  Why or how? Paul says, "death spread to all men because all sinned-- ". There is no ambiguity in what Paul says. It is because all sinned.  It is not because Adam sinned; rather it is because all men sinned.

: RBAs by one man~Here is the doctrine of representation~one man representing many men in the sight of God. Here is the doctrine of imputation~the act(s) of one man being applied legally/judicially to others. This doctrine is also called ancestral sin and federal headship of Adam and other manmade names.

There is no such thing there.  There is no representation even suggested there.  It is a simple statement that sin was first introduced to this earthly world by the one man, Adam.  And with that sin, Adam, died spiritually.  The manner in which everyone subsequent to Adam died spiritually was through their sins, i.e., "death spread to all men because all men sinned".  They did it to themselves. They didn't die through any representation.  They died through their own sinning.

: RBUse of "as ... so" means, "As this occurred in this specified manner ... so this event also occurred that same specified way." This powerful form of grammar is found in verses 12,15,16,18, and 19.

That is a true statement.  It is really too bad that you have not really understood that powerful form of grammar.  What exactly does the "so...as" here tell us.  It says, just as Adam died spiritually because of his sin, so also all men die spiritually because they all sin.

: RBAnd death by sin~Death is the necessary consequence and result of sin before a holy and righteous God (6:23). God told Adam very plainly for all to read that he would die if he ate the fruit (Genesis 2:17). Sin and death (Gen 2:17) were brought into the human world by Adam's sin (5:14; 6:23). Spiritual death came immediately (Genesis 2:17; Ephesains 2:1), physical death came 930 years later for Adam (Genesis 3:19; 5:5; Hebrews 9:27), and eternal death awaits final execution (Revelation 20:6,14).

But again, physical death came, not the direct result of Adam's sin, but as a result of being ejected from the Garden and no longer haveing access to the life preserving fruit of the Tree of Life.

: RBA judicial sentence was passed ~death was assigned to all men as the just and holy punishment, even to infants and ignorant (5:14), for Adam's singular sin in the Garden of Eden.

You keep talking about physical life and death.  Nothing in the whole of Romans 5 has anything to do with our physical life and death.  The only physical death that is mentioned is Christ's physical death on the cross.

And the entire rest of your comments there concerning Romans 5 is nothing more than an Augustinian/Calvinistic atrocious attempt to promote Original Sin and the even worse Total Depravity.  You presented above the "powerful form of grammar" of the "so...as" construction.  Then in all of your discourse concerning the verses from 12 on, you ignored the truth presented by it.

The point of the "so...as" construction is in the truth presented in the "as" part of the statement.  In verse 18: (KJV) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. , the first thing we need to see is that we have "as .....upon all men....; even so ....upon all men....". Thus, whatever the "as" refers to, it is upon all men, and by the powerful form of grammar then whatever the "so" refers, it is also upon all men.

Having established the absolute consistency demanded by the "as...so" construction, we next look to see what it is that is confirmed for all men.  In verse 18 the "as" part seems clearly to indicate that by Adam's offense brought condemnation to all men.  How?  You and many others have concluded that condemnation comes upon all men at birth.  You call it Original Sin.  I agree.  So then what should we conclude came upon all men by Jesus' righteousness?  Paul said justification of life.  How? Well to be consistent, one must conclude that justification of life comes upon all men at birth.  I call that Original Grace.

So what does that mean? What is it that Paul is trying to tell us?  What Paul is saying there that the effects upon all men of what Jesus did negated entirely the effects upon all men of what Adam did.

It is important to note that none of the discussion in verses 12 through 19 have anything to do with what we have done.  None of it speaks to the effects of our sins.  Paul takes up that discussion immediately following in Chapter 6.

That entire passage speaks only to the comparison of the effects of Adam's disobedience and the effects of Jesus' obedience.  The fact is that what Jesus did wiped out completely the effects of what Adam did.  Only in that way could Paul say, speaking of Adam's disobedience and Jesus' obedience that "where sin abounded, grace did much more abound"[ (v.19)/i].

: 4WD  Thu Dec 01, 2022 - 07:11:06That is simply one more of your Augustinian/Calvinist constructs created to align with your false doctrines.

I had said this to you:

: RBActually, it shows the wisdom of God in making the first Adam the head/representative of his posterity that shall come forth of his lions.

So, you reject the federal headship of Adam for his posterity? Then you explain to me in what sense was Adam the "figure" of Christ, according to Paul's words.

Romans 5:14~"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

The "only" resemblance, on account of which Adam is regarded as the type of Christ, consists in this, that Adam communicated to those whom he represented what belonged to him, and that Christ also communicated to those whom He represents what belonged to Him.

4WD, if you refuse to accept this truth, then by your refusal you are clearly stating you do not understand the gospel of Jesus Christ and the biblical doctrine of imputation as taught by Paul in such places as Romans 4:1-8, etc. Beautifully illustrated in the book of Philemon. You are getting at the end of your life on earth, you need to reconsider your position.

As we have said above there is, however, a great dissimilarity between what the one and the other communicates by his disobedience Adam has communicated sin and death to all which came from his lions; and by His obedience Christ has communicated righteousness and life; and as Adam was the author of the natural life of his posterity, so Christ is the author of the spiritual life which His people now possess, and which they shall enjoy at their resurrection, so that, in accordance with these analogies, Christ is called by Paul, the last Adam.

If, then, the actual obedience of Christ is imputed to all those of whom he is the head, and is counted to them for their legal justification as their own obedience; in the same way, the actual sin of Adam, who is the type of Christ, is imputed to all those of whom he is the head, and is counted for their condemnation, as their own sin. In writing to those at Corinth, who were "sanctified in Christ Jesus," the apostle says~"The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from
heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy; and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly."

The information which the Scriptures give us of the sin of the first man, show that it was a complete subversion of nature, and the establishment of the kingdom of Satan in the world; they also show us that the purpose of sending Jesus Christ into the world was to destroy the empire of Satan, sin, and death.

One of the old divines said:  "On the Covenants, of two Adams, 1 Corinthians 15:45-49. As the one is called the first man, the other is called the second, even the Lord from heaven. Now, as there were innumerable multitudes of men between the first man and Him, it is plain that He is called the second man for some very peculiar reason. And what else can that be but because

He is the representative and father of all His spiritual seed, as the first man was of all his natural seed? The one is the head, the federal head of the earthly men, the other of the heavenly. Since the one is called the second man, not because He was the second in the order of creation, but because He was the second public head, it follows that the other is called the first man not because he was first created, or in opposition to his descendants, but because he was the first public head in opposition to Christ the second.

So, the two Adams are the heads of the two covenants. The one the representative of all who are under the covenant of works, communicating his image unto them; the other the representative of all who are under the covenant of grace, and communicating His image unto them. By the one man's disobedience many were made sinners, and by the obedience of the other many shall be made
righteous."

Again, you explain to me in what sense was Adam the "figure" of Christ, according to Paul's words.

I asked you: "Do you believe you have a better option, a more righteous one?"

: 4WD on: Yesterday at 07:11:06I most certainly do.  The one presented by God Himself.  The one where God doesn't condemn the entire company of humanity for the sins of one man.  Not only does God not condemn all humanity for what Adam did, God does not condemn even one other human being for what Adam did.  There was/is no need for God to do that.  Why?  Because, "... death spread to all men because all sinned-- " (Rom 5:13).

4WD, you saying you most certainly do, and proving the same are worlds apart! Again, God provided Adam all he needed to obey, he did not have a body of SIN and DEATH as we all have by nature. He provided Adam with a will created after His image, FREE from corruption.

Your use of Romans 5:12 (you typed 5:13, but pretty sure you wanted 5:12)  is a corruption of the truth~

Romans 5:12~Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

For that all have sinned~ That is, all have really sinned, though not in their own persons. This does not mean, as some explain it, that infants become involved in the consequences of Adam's sin without his guilt. Adam stood as the head, the forefather and representative of all his posterity They were all created in him; and in the guilt of his sin, as well as its consequence, they became partakers.  These truths, that sin, death, and condemnation come upon all by one man, are clearly taught in the following verses, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19. Through the offense of one, many are dead. The judgment was by the one that sinned to condemnation. By one man's offense death reigned by one. By the offense of one, judgment came upon all men to condemnation. By one man's disobedience many were made sinners.

Adam's sin was as truly the sin of every one of his posterity, as if it had been personally committed by him. It is only in this way that all could be involved in its consequences. Besides, it is only in this light that it is illustrative of justification by Christ. Believers truly die
with Christ, and pay the debt in Him by their union or oneness with Him. It belongs not to us to inquire how these things can be. We receive them on the testimony of God. Secret things belong to the Lord our God; but those things which are revealed belong unto us and our children. It is revealed in the scriptures, and it would be a sign of unbelief to reject God's testimony.

Your post is long which that's okay, yet for me to answer it in the manner in which I should, I'm going to break it down into one, or two more posts.

: RB  Fri Dec 02, 2022 - 05:41:31
So, you reject the federal headship of Adam for his posterity? Then you explain to me in what sense was Adam the "figure" of Christ, according to Paul's words. The "only" resemblance, on account of which Adam is regarded as the type of Christ, consists in this, that Adam communicated to those whom he represented what belonged to him, and that Christ also communicated to those whom He represents what belonged to Him.

First off, all that "communicated" stuff is little more than contrived verbiage to sound like you're correct in your analysis. The obvious reason for that is that so that in what follows you can claim that the effects of Adam's disobedience, his sin, is imputed to the whole of humanity, while the effect of Jesus' obedience, His righteousness, is imputed to only a few, namely those you claimed to be "elected" to salvation. The very idea that Jesus' obedience, His righteousness, is so ineffectual compared to Adam's disobedience, his sin, is truly a slap in the face of God, both the Father and the Son. You should be very careful to even listen to such garbage.

How is Adam a type for Jesus?  That is well explained in the verses that follow.  And irony is that you reject it all.  You made a big deal out of the "so....as" powerful form of grammar and then you proceed to ignore what it actually says.  In your reply #33, you spoke of 1 Corinthians 15:22.  Ironically, you almost got it, and then you lost it again.  It is true that in that verse we have a case in which Adam is indeed a type, a figure, of Christ. 

However, the subject there was the resurrection of the dead. Paul says there, "If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied. But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive" 1 Cor 15:19-22). Here obviously the subject is physical death. Clearly here Paul is speaking of every last human being who has ever lived or will ever live. All men will die; all men will be resurrected.

The interesting feature is that this type, this figure, deals with the end of life.  The passage in Romans five clearly deals with the beginning of life. In the 1 Corinthian 15 type, it is the physical.  In the Romans 5 type it is the spiritual.  In both cases the effect of one man, Jesus, completely undoes the effect of one man, Adam.  Your error in all of this is that you proclaim Adam as a type of Jesus for all humanity in death but only for some in life.

Paul wrote, (ESV)  "Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men" (Rom 5:18).  

RB says, "No, that is not right.  It should be, (RB) "Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for only some men" . Here the some men you have in mind are your so-called elect, the elect of Calvin.

The point you refuse to see here is that Paul is speaking about the effects brought upon all men at birth (or at conception). 

Adam is a type for Jesus in the spiritual life of all men in birth and in the physical life of all men in death.  In both cases, the effect of Jesus' obedience undoes the effect of Adam's disobedience.  And that my dear brother in Christ is at the very heart of grace. You claim allegiance to original sin; I claim allegiance to original grace.

4WD, if you refuse to accept this truth, then by your refusal you are clearly stating you do not understand the gospel of Jesus Christ and the biblical doctrine of imputation as taught by Paul in such places as Romans 4:1-8, etc. Beautifully illustrated in the book of Philemon. You are getting at the end of your life on earth, you need to reconsider your position.

Unlike you, I do not think your error in all of this will keep you out of eternal life. Interesting that you would refer to Romans 4, since you clearly do not understand the imputation of righteousness to Abraham.  "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness" (Rom 4:3).  

Abraham was justified by his belief, his faith, in God.

: RB  Fri Dec 02, 2022 - 05:41:31
Your use of Romans 5:12 (you typed 5:13, but pretty sure you wanted 5:12)  is a corruption of the truth~For that all have sinned~ That is, all have really sinned, though not in their own persons.

Yes, of course, I did intend Romans 5:12.  And, of course, you deny what it actually says.  What it says is that the reason that death (spiritual death) passed to all men is because all men sinned.  No one can sin not in their own persons.  Sin is, by every possible definition, in their own persons. Eze 18:4  Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die......20  The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

: 4WD  Fri Dec 02, 2022 - 07:47:14Unlike you, I do not think your error in all of this will keep you out of eternal life. Interesting that you would refer to Romans 4, since you clearly do not understand the imputation of righteousness to Abraham.  "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness" (Rom 4:3).  

Just quick word or two, I'll come back alter and finish my posts to you.

I DO NOT think your understanding will keep you from possessing eternal life, yet it will rob you of joy and perfect peace knowing that Christ's obedience/righteousness is the only means of one inheriting eternal life, nothing from us secures our right to life hereafter. Maybe I did not make it as clear as I should have, my bad. I'm NO man's judge, certainly not based on understanding of truth which is very subjected, since no man is free of error, only one that lived was.

: 4WD  Fri Dec 02, 2022 - 07:47:14Unlike you, I do not think your error in all of this will keep you out of eternal life. Interesting that you would refer to Romans 4, since you clearly do not understand the imputation of righteousness to Abraham.  "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness" (Rom 4:3).  

Just quick word or two, I'll come back alter and finish my posts to you.

I DO NOT think your understanding will keep you from possessing eternal life, yet it will rob you of joy and perfect peace knowing that Christ's obedience/righteousness is the only means of one inheriting eternal life, nothing from us secures our right to life hereafter. Maybe I did not make it as clear as I should have, my bad. I'm NO man's judge, certainly not based on understanding of truth which is very subjected, since no man is free of error, only one that lived was.

: RB  Fri Dec 02, 2022 - 08:14:24
I DO NOT think your understanding will keep you from possessing eternal life, yet it will rob you of joy and perfect peace knowing that Christ's obedience/righteousness is the only means of one inheriting eternal life, nothing from us secures our right to life hereafter. Maybe I did not make it as clear as I should have, my bad. I'm NO man's judge, certainly not based on understanding of truth which is very subjected, since no man is free of error, only one that lived was.

Your joy and perfect peace comes from thinking you have been appointed as one of the elect.  And yet, you cannot prove that you really have been so appointed.  You think and you hope that is the case.  But that is all it is.  You have no biblical assurance that you have been selected.

That's not so, 4WD.  We do have "biblical assurance" of this. 

"WE KNOW that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren..." (I John 3:14).
"By this shall all men KNOW that ye are my disciples; if ye have love one to another..." (John 13:35).

And just how do we have any assurance that we "love the brethren"?

"By this WE KNOW that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments." (I John 5:2).

John's message of biblical assurance was pretty consistent.

: 3 Resurrections  Sun Dec 11, 2022 - 09:08:28
That's not so, 4WD.  We do have "biblical assurance" of this. 

"WE KNOW that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren..." (I John 3:14).
"By this shall all men KNOW that ye are my disciples; if ye have love one to another..." (John 13:35).

And just how do we have any assurance that we "love the brethren"?

"By this WE KNOW that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments." (I John 5:2).

John's message of biblical assurance was pretty consistent.

First in response to you, Jesus, in John 13:35, was speaking to His disciples at the last supper.  There is no basis for assuming that applies to you. With respect to 1 John 5:2, who do you know that actually keeps the commandments of God?  I have known unbelievers who probably, in reality, kept the commandments of God better than some believers I have known.  That passage, in and of itself, would convince many of the Judaizing Jews of Paul's days that they were saved when they most likely were not.  The problem with verses like 1 John 3:14 and 1 John 5:2 is how well do such admonitions need to be adhered to in order to prove that one is saved.  There really is no answer for that. 1 John 5:4 says "For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world." Who do you know that fits that description?  Are you sure you fit that description?

It is interesting that those following Calvin in the early days could never state for sure that they were among the elect. That being the case because according to Calvin God chose the elect based solely upon the counsel of his own will. Based upon verses like you posted, they would keep notes, either in their minds or actually in writing, about all the good things they did hoping that they would be keeping the commandments of God good enough to be counted as one of the elect, the born of God.

Passages such as those you cited are meant, not as a test of having been saved, but rather as admonitions to the saved as what their behavior should be.  Once you make them a test of having been saved, you are then into a salvation by works, whatever you think "works" are.

Second, I am thoroughly convinced that we are saved by grace through our faith.  And it is in that faith that we have assurance of our salvation.  And thankfully, that is not dependent upon "our works".  My comments in reply #41 were to RB who believes that faith is a gift to the elect and they are strictly chosen solely by the counsel of God's own will, not by anything having to do with the individual.  That being the case, I repeat, he cannot prove that he is actually one of the elect.

We could have a very indepth discussion of the assurance of salvation, but that probably should be a topic for another discussion.

Your question regarding the I John 5:4 verse, "For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world."  You asked if anyone fits that description, and if I did.  The answer is in the very next verse.  "Who is he that overcometh the world, but HE THAT BELIEVETH THAT JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD?"

That statement describes both you and me.  Didn't Christ tell the disciples, "In the world ye shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer: I HAVE OVERCOME THE WORLD."  You and I share this victory as overcomers.  "We are more than conquerors THROUGH HIM THAT LOVED US."  Our overcoming the world is a vicarious one, since we are IN CHRIST, and share in His victory that has overcome the world. 

Our discussion was of a person having self-assurance of their election.  We are told to "make our calling and election sure".  This is making our election assured to our own conscience - not that we were ever responsible as being the author of that election.  The difference between EVIDENCE and CAUSE. 

I agree with RB (and the scriptures) that faith is a gift to those whom God choses to give it.  The rest (which are a small minority of "tares" compared to the "wheat" harvest) are left in their blindness, which they are very willing to remain in considering their state, even from conception.

: 3 Resurrections  Mon Dec 12, 2022 - 08:25:15
I agree with RB (and the scriptures) that faith is a gift to those whom God choses to give it.  The rest (which are a small minority of "tares" compared to the "wheat" harvest) are left in their blindness, which they are very willing to remain in considering their state, even from conception.

Personally, I think that the idea that faith is a gift to those to whom God chooses to give it is a truly despicable character assassination of God; not because He chooses to give a gift to some, but because he doesn't give the gift to the rest and then condemns them because they do not have faith.

I think it is very presumptuous of you, 4WD, to attempt the role of being the judge of God Himself.  "Shall not the judge of all the earth do right?"  Scripture says that God looked down from heaven on the world to see if there were any that did understand and that would seek God, and He found none.  "There is not a just man upon earth that doeth good and sinneth not."  How could it possibly be a "character assassination" of God to give Him praise for rescuing many - even the majority of mankind - out of that condition? 

You seem to assign an entitlement to mankind - a so-called debt that God owes humanity to rescue all without a single exception from their innate, fallen condition, or if He does not do so, He is an autocratic fiend.  Left to themselves, no man has the innate ability to choose life.  This ability must be granted by the Spirit, or it will never emerge spontaneously from anyone.  Our ability to choose life by our own volition has been corrupted from conception.   

The fate for those who are not given the gift of faith that "flips the switch" and initiates their eternal life as a child of God is NOT to be barbecued for all eternity in the flames of a tortured existence.  The fate of those who remain separated from God at the last judgment is to be destroyed from existence - both body and soul.   This is only the inevitable result of a sinner standing in the absolutely holy presence of God's "consuming fire" of utter perfection.     

You sound like a person who would approve of a basketball coach not only giving a trophy to everyone on his own team, but also giving a trophy to those on the opposing team also. 

: 3 Resurrections  Tue Dec 13, 2022 - 10:16:43You sound like a person who would approve of a basketball coach not only giving a trophy to everyone on his own team, but also giving a trophy to those on the opposing team also.

Not hardly.  But you sound like a person who would approve of a basketball referee who calls fouls only on the team he has decided shouldn't win.

: 3 Resurrections  Tue Dec 13, 2022 - 10:16:43
Scripture says that God looked down from heaven on the world to see if there were any that did understand and that would seek God, and He found none. 

And that while looking at you, it would seem.

Of course that includes me also.  I could take you to the exact location in my city when I was in an elementary school chapel service where I first realized that I couldn't ride on the coattails of my parents' own standing before God to claim a similar status as a child of God myself. 

I remember very well the sense of shock in realizing at last that I had my own sinful status that needed a Savior.  My believing parents couldn't speak for me.   It was like a still small voice whispering to my soul that woke me up to see myself as I really was before God's utter righteousness.  I can't claim credit for that at all.

Oh, of course; that still small voice.  How many of those have I been told about that ended up being complete nonsense. If effective in your case, then lucky for you.  I am more inclined to Paul's technique outlined in Romans 10.

: 3 Resurrections  Tue Dec 13, 2022 - 10:16:43
I think it is very presumptuous of you, 4WD, to attempt the role of being the judge of God Himself.  "Shall not the judge of all the earth do right?"  Scripture says that God looked down from heaven on the world to see if there were any that did understand and that would seek God, and He found none.  "There is not a just man upon earth that doeth good and sinneth not."  How could it possibly be a "character assassination" of God to give Him praise for rescuing many - even the majority of mankind - out of that condition? 

You seem to assign an entitlement to mankind - a so-called debt that God owes humanity to rescue all without a single exception from their innate, fallen condition, or if He does not do so, He is an autocratic fiend.  Left to themselves, no man has the innate ability to choose life.  This ability must be granted by the Spirit, or it will never emerge spontaneously from anyone.  Our ability to choose life by our own volition has been corrupted from conception.   

The fate for those who are not given the gift of faith that "flips the switch" and initiates their eternal life as a child of God is NOT to be barbecued for all eternity in the flames of a tortured existence.  The fate of those who remain separated from God at the last judgment is to be destroyed from existence - both body and soul.   This is only the inevitable result of a sinner standing in the absolutely holy presence of God's "consuming fire" of utter perfection.     

You sound like a person who would approve of a basketball coach not only giving a trophy to everyone on his own team, but also giving a trophy to those on the opposing team also.

+1 for my man 3R's.

4WD, it was hardly "luck" that brought me a realization of my need for a Savior.  That's a little too casual a way to describe a soul passing from death unto life by the Spirit's work, which is hardly just a happy accident. 

And there's not a particle of difference between what I described as my experience and Romans 10 which you brought up.  These are not in opposition to each other.  I truly was not seeking after Christ at that moment, yet He was manifested to me anyway, just as Romans 10:20 said of the Gentile world.

Romans 10:17 sums up Paul's thought on the subject when he said,  "So then faith cometh by hearing, and HEARING BY THE WORD OF GOD".  My faith came through the means of hearkening to a message of the gospel, and that ability granted to me to actually hear and comprehend it was due to the FIRST CAUSE - "The Word of God".

That "Word of God" Paul spoke of is the incorruptible Seed - Jesus Christ.  Just like it says in I Peter 1:23, "Being born again, not of incorruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the WORD OF GOD (logos) which liveth and abideth forever." 

Without the Spirit waking me up to my fallen state, the thought would not have occurred to me that I had any personal spiritual need whatever for Christ Jesus.

: 3 Resurrections  Tue Dec 13, 2022 - 18:19:40
Without the Spirit waking me up to my fallen state, the thought would not have occurred to me that I had any personal spiritual need whatever for Christ Jesus.

I wonder if RB will give you a +1 on the Spirit waking you up to your fallen state?  I suspect he would reject that one out of hand.

Actually, on that one I might tend to at least agree with you. But about faith being a gift I must reject as completely unscriptural.  We believe in God in basically the same way we believe in anything or anyone else.  It comes as Paul said in Romans 10.  We hear [or in this day and age, we read] about God, about Christ, about who God is and what He has done.  We become convinced of the truth of what we hear or read. For some, depending partially upon how they have been raised, it is not that difficult to become convinced of that truth and place their trust in God and His word.  For others it may not be so easy and it can take a great deal of time and energy to finally come to the truth.  For still others it doesn't happen and they reject it.

What you said here

: 3 Resurrections  Mon Dec 12, 2022 - 08:25:15
I agree with RB (and the scriptures) that faith is a gift to those whom God choses to give it.

is incorrect; the gift is salvation that comes from God's grace by way of the faith that you have come to through hearing the gospel message; the gospel that is "the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes"

: 4WD  Wed Dec 14, 2022 - 03:53:05I wonder if RB will give you a +1 on the Spirit waking you up to your fallen state?  I suspect he would reject that one out of hand.

Actually, on that one I might tend to at least agree with you. But about faith being a gift I must reject as completely unscriptural.

Concerning faith consider: The more I am exercised herein, the more I see into it and enjoy justification by Christ alone, and more clearly see our believing cannot justify us. Yet I deny not but the power to believe is from the Spirit, who is the life of motion in faith. The life of faith is the life of Chris living IN US~ what faith is, and what it does, and wherein it differs from presumption, etc.

God has given faith in His to know, assent and believe the Truth. See Hebrews 11:3;  Acts28:24. This encourages us to go to God for all we need. {Acts 26:18} This enables us to suffer for Christ. Philippians 1:28,29. This enables us to conquer enemies. Ephesians 6:16. It makes our afflictions easy to bear. It enables us to obey. Romans 6:17. It helps us to cleave to God, Acts 11:23, and to His word~Psalms 119:30,31. This helps us to hope in His mercy. Psalms 147:11... Faith causes us to depend upon Jesus Christ alone for life and salvation. What more necessary and useful in this life than faith?

There is a light in faith, and as our blind eyes and dark understandings are enlightened; Ephesians 1:18, 5:13; so accordingly, we are filled with the fullness of God. Ephesians 3:19.  The fullness of knowledge is that perfection we are to press after. Philippinas 3:12, Col.2:2, 4:12. This sight shows us our justification to be in Christ alone. And the seeking of a further measure of knowledge is a seeking to be justified. Galatians 2:17 Because this knowledge is that which justifies our Conscience. Faith cannot satisfy justice nor merit the pardon of the least sin. Only Christ can do that. And that exposition that gives most glory to Christ and least to man, I believe is the truth.

Faith nor unbelief can make anything true or false, nor cause the being of that which had no being before. Therefore, when Christ, by His Spirit and Word of truth, declares and reveals to a soul that all his sins are forgiven and washed away in the blood of Christ, etc., it is a certain truth, and it is "the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth." Ist John 5:6.... Therefore, seeing we are justified by Christ before we believed it, may we not believe that faith in us was either a cause or a means, or any instrument of it, but only a means of our receiving the knowledge of it, and of our enjoying the comfort of it?

That faith or anything in us is not a cause, means, or condition, required to partake of the Covenant of Grace, justification or salvation, but only fruits and effects of the Covenant. That the Scripture holds forth justification by faith in a sense is very clear, but yet under no other consideration, but by way of evidence; Heb.11:1,2; as it respects the taking away of sin from off the conscience; for indeed the debt is paid by the blood of Christ alone, and we are therefore said to be justified by His blood. Romans 5:9.... For indeed, as Christ Jesus our Lord has paid the debt, "the Lord having laid upon Him the iniquities of us all," so does He declare this satisfaction and acceptation of us in Christ by faith. Faith is the eye of the understanding whereby the soul comes to see the great things which God the Father has prepared for them who love Him.

Most idolize their believing. They live upon it; fetch all their comfort from it and not from God in Christ. The work of faith is only to assent to the truth of what the Spirit
in the word says, and receive its testimony.

We must be in Christ, before we can bear fruit; John.15:4; therefore we must be in Christ, before we can believe; he that hath the Spirit of Christ hath Christ. We have the Spirit of Christ before we believe, therefore we have Christ before we believe, Romans 8:9-11. Men are ordained unto eternal life before they believe. Acts 13:48 Faith is a grace of the Covenant on God's part to be given to those who are given to Christ; faith is given to some, that by it they may know their interest in Christ, and by it live upon Him. Faith is no condition of the Covenant, therefore they mistake who conceive faith to be a condition of the Covenant, either required on man's part to partake of the Covenant of Grace, or given to men, and then required of them as a condition; although the Scripture expresses, that he that believes shall be saved, yet is not faith any condition of salvation; but such expressions are to be considered as a declaration to us what persons shall be saved; namely, such as believe. It is an information to such as know not who shall be saved, and if any desire to know who shall be saved; the answer is, he that believes shall be saved. John.3:16.  If faith did
give us interest in Christ, when faith did not appear to act, it would appear to us, that we had no interest in Christ, and that we were not justified by him.

It is not men's believing, but the Object of faith, that gives faith its denomination, or name, for there be divers kinds of faith; there is a natural faith; Luke8:13; and a divine faith, or the faith of God's Elect. Titus 1:1 Faith and its object is not to be separated, because faith and its object is one and the same.

It is against truth and reason to believe that by believing I make myself a son, and God my father. If I believe myself to be a King's son, will believing it make me so? If I believe brass is gold, will it be so? He that is a Prince knows not that he is so until sometime after he is so, yet he is a son and a Prince whether he knows it or believes it or no; therefore, believing makes us not sons, but by it we see ourselves to be sons and enjoy the comfort of it by believing.

Some hold the act of faith is that which God accepts to Justification, but this is a mistake, because it makes Christ inferior to faith, and in ascribing such an honor to faith, they dishonor Christ, for although they do not exclude Christ wholly, yet in the act of Justification, it gives all to faith. They say, 'as the act of Adam's sin condemned him, so our act of faith justifies us.' Adam's sin was enough to condemn him and us, but our faith cannot save others, nor ourselves. They reply, 'but we are justified by faith.' Christ is called faith. "Before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed." Galatians 3:23..... "Before faith came;" which must be understood of Christ. We are justified before God in His sight only by Christ. Romans3:24 "My righteous servant (Christ) shall justify many." Isaiah 53:11..... We are not justified before God by faith which is in us, but by Christ, by his blood; justified by his blood. Romans 5:9. That which saves us is the blood of Christ/life and death of Jesus Christ hath loved us, and washed us from our sins in his blood. Revelation 1:5. Also we are said to be justified by faith, because it is the instrument whereby we apprehend and apply Christ our Righteousness; by faith we know ourselves to be justified. Romans 5:1 Though faith be a grace of God, yet as it is an act, it is a work, and to be justified by it, is to be justified by a work of our own; for with the heart {man} believes. Romans 10:9-10. [b That which justifies us, must be perfect, and so it is no act of ours[/b]; for all our Righteousness are as filthy rags, etc.; Isaiah 64:6... Not of works, least any man should boast. Ephesians 2:9.

The Scripture says, that "Christ dwells in our hearts by faith," but where does it say, that we are in Christ by faith? The being in Christ, as in Ephesians 1:4, is by election, and not by faith.

They rob Christ of the greatest part of his work and his glory, and give it to faith, and set faith in Christ's throne. And an hundred errors more may be reckoned up
that will follow this opinion.

To believe that Jesus is the Christ implies a seeing and knowing all to be in Christ for life, and to trust in Him for pardon and life, and rest upon him for it. He that thus believes in Christ, is brought over to Christ, and so centered upon Him, that he will not go from him. As Peter saith, "Lord, to whom shall we go; thou hast the words of eternal life." John.6:68... "My soul, wait thou only upon God; for my expectation is
from him." Psalms 62:5. For the most part we are indebted to....Samuel Richardson {Divine Consolations, Part Two, 1649}

: RB  Wed Dec 14, 2022 - 06:08:10
Concerning faith consider: The more I am exercised herein, the more I see into it and enjoy justification by Christ alone, and more clearly see our believing cannot justify us.

So many words; so little truth.  That you think that faith in God was a characteristic of Jesus Christ, who is Himself God, tells me that you have no idea even what faith is.  How in all that is holy you can attribute the distinctive of "assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen" (Heb 11:1), to Jesus, even in His existence as a human being, is quite unbelievable. Jesus said, "I and the Father are one." And yet you seem to suggest that He didn't know that to be absolute truth but hoped that was true or was simply convinced that it was so. And not knowing what faith in God means, says that you also don't know it means that we have faith in God.

Also, I don't know anyone who thinks that our believing can justify us.  So why would you bother to even argue against that? Only God can justify us.  When Paul said "we are justified by faith" (Rom 3:28; 5:1; Gal 3:24), he wasn't suggesting that faith was the means whereby we are justified; however, he was declaring that faith was the basis upon which God declares us as righteous. 

Perhaps I will come back to address some of the other misconceptions presented there.

Of course we are justified by faith as Paul indicated in those texts.  The question still remains "Just how do we get that faith to begin with?".  Scripture tells us "What hast thou, that thou hast not received?"  "Every good gift, and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights..."  And faith is one of those gifts, as in "For by grace are ye saved, through faith, and that NOT OF YOURSELVES, it is the GIFT of God..."

You want to claim we can initiate a saving faith on our own.  That is impossible for a spiritually dead person.  We all began life that way - dead spiritually from conception.  Dead people don't initiate action of any kind until they are acted upon by a Power outside themselves.  Like I said before, the Holy Spirit has to come and "flip the switch" by implanting life within us as a desire to seek God.  That desire does not come of our own power, for we had none to begin with, being dead to all things spiritual. 

Now, once faith is present after the Holy Spirit implants it, faith is then exercised to varying levels of operation in each individual.  That is when we are to "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling..."   But even then we are told "For it is GOD THAT WORKETH IN YOU both to will and to do of His good pleasure." 

To claim credit for our abilities beyond what scripture tells us is to worship the creature more than the Creator.  Totally imbalanced thinking.

: 3 Resurrections  Wed Dec 14, 2022 - 08:38:42
To claim credit for our abilities beyond what scripture tells us is to worship the creature more than the Creator.  Totally imbalanced thinking.

Where in scripture does it tell us believing is beyond the ability of anyone?

: 3 Resurrections  Wed Dec 14, 2022 - 08:38:42You want to claim we can initiate a saving faith on our own.

No, I have never said that.  We do not initiate a saving faith.  God does that.  The question is how does God do that?  It would seem that you think God simply zaps faith into you. But He doesn't.  That is not how belief or faith in anything is developed.  God has given us His revelation; both general revelation and special revelation.  It is specifically in the special revelation, His written word, that we have the necessary information and data to first believe that what is said there is truth. And then believing that what God as said to us is truth, we can then begin to believe in Him.  To believe someone and to believe in someone are not the same.  But in both, we are the actors.  We are the ones who believe what God says, we mentally accept what God says it true.  But that is not sufficient.  We then, believing it to be truth, place our trust in what God says.  That is the message of Romans 10.  We hear, we learn, we accept the word about Christ and we place our trust in that word about Christ.  That word, which comes initially from God, is relayed to us either in speech [or writings] from another.  God initiates it by providing His truth in the form of His written word.

: 4WD  Wed Dec 14, 2022 - 07:52:14Perhaps I will come back to address some of the other misconceptions presented there.

Please do......I'll do the same with your post later as time permits. Before stopping, let me add a word or two.

: 4WD  Reply #57 on: Today at 09:14:08   It would seem that you think God simply zaps faith into you. But He doesn't.  That is not how belief or faith in anything is developed.

No sir, that's not how it works, it is the way you desire others to believe it does, so you can keep them from seeing the truth!

God creates a new man within his elect children, by His almighty power, so with the new man they have a FREE WILL and power WITH THAT WILL to hear, see, and understand...that my friend is how it truly works...... according to the testimony of God himself. Thank you most blessed God that this is so! Without which, NONE would ever come to see, hear, and understand.

But first, please come back and address a few points in my other post, as you suggest you may do.

Christ is called both the "AUTHOR" and also the "FINISHER OF OUR FAITH".

We were dead on the operating table, and yes, God had to "zap" us into life before we were capable of having a heartbeat that could respond in a living manner.

Believing is merely that first living response of one who has been "zapped", if you will, into a spiritually living person with a new birth.  "This is the WORK OF GOD, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."  (John 6:28). 

Christ once told the religious leaders of His days, "Ye believe NOT, because ye are not of my sheep."  The identity as a "sheep" must be established by God first, or belief will never follow.

Where is your ear tag identifying you as one of the sheep?

Perhaps Res 3 and RB could get together and agree about the zapping process.

My "ear tag"?  Christ already told you how sheep are identified.  "My sheep HEAR MY VOICE, and I know them, and THEY FOLLOW ME.  And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." 

I was made a sheep first, which enabled me to hear God's voice calling to me as a child in that chapel service long ago.   

The sheep do not follow the voice of a stranger.  Over time, I have ditched a number of "strangers" to follow the voice and leading of my true Shepherd.  A couple of false pastor/shepherds, the company of a very dear congregation with which I cannot have real unity anymore, and any close spiritual fellowship with my spouse.  These are sacrifices I am willing to make for the One who gave me eternal life, and I have been given the promise that I will never perish or be plucked out of His hand.

How come He didn't make you a sheep before you came across those "false pastors/shepherds"?

Oh well, don't bother.  I think I will just step aside and let this one go where it goes.  It is way out beyond my league.  You and RB can take it wherever you wish.

Those false pastors/shepherds were revealed for what they were some time after my chapel service experience at elementary school when I first became a "sheep".   Later on, I was 16 and 36 years old respectively when I saw those other false pastors in my rear-view mirror.  Sometimes it takes a while before a false pastor/shepherd is manifested for what they really are.  RB knows exactly which one of these false pastors I am talking about, since he was sitting there along with me for a number of years. 

It was 7 years ago when I (sadly) had to leave the last congregation.  For my spouse, we are still married after 44 years, though we are not united on many points of doctrine and cannot discuss them at all for the sake of peace in the home.   I figure they are close enough to glory that they will know better on these things before long. 

: 3 Resurrections  Wed Dec 14, 2022 - 12:19:36For my spouse, we are still married after 44 years,

My dear brother...GOOD FOR YOU and I pray that God would give you two many more GOOD YEARS together in all sincerity. Brother Red.

Sherry and I and been together close to 56 years if she was in the Catholic church they would make her a saint living with me that long.  ::smile:: 

: Rella  Mon Nov 21, 2022 - 06:44:28

No 3R... Fearmongering it is not. Fact it is. Just look how fast this growth is becoming.... Remember Jesus himself said Render unto (Caesar) And God the Father said "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God."

A couple of fine  ??? examples are shown below.

LGBTQ Appointments in the Biden - Harris Administration
As of April 29, 2021 – the 100 Days mark of Joe Biden's presidency – over 200 known LGBTQ people have been appointed to his administration, the most in history at this point in any administration.

LGBTQ Victory Institute's Presidential Appointments Initiatives advocates for LGBTQ appointments and tracks the success. Below is a list of more than 200 LGBTQ appointees whose names are publicly available.

Look at the link to see the names....

https://victoryinstitute.org/programs/presidential-appointments-initiative/lgbtq-appointments-in-the-biden-harris-administration/

(https://i.ibb.co/8xJhd0L/55628340-8dd6-11ec-be5e-e1be01fe8c2f-1.webp) (https://ibb.co/rpgWcmR)

(https://i.ibb.co/tY3Tm3V/rachel-levine.webp) (https://ibb.co/ygVcfVH)

Very sobering to say the least...

: 3 Resurrections  Sun Nov 20, 2022 - 10:21:24All of the above is ancient history, and already fulfilled.  Every bit of it.

Amo, the you tube selection you submitted is nothing but fear-mongering that ignores God's repeated promises to grow His kingdom in this world. 

It matters not what the subversive plans of men are to establish a one-world government.  God has no such design to allow this, since He has already smashed Daniel's statue of world government powers into dust long ago.  There is no other "statue" of world government powers that has replaced that one.  The "stone" kingdom of Christ is the only one that will grow and eventually fill the earth - as promised by God Himself.

I don't think all the islands have fled away or even the mountains, so you seem to be off a bit...