: Jaime Tue Apr 18, 2023 - 06:55:43
Dave... I think it would be cool to have a thread to explore more about the differences in the Eastern vs the Western mindset.
I recognize that their IS a difference, but maybe not how those differences affect the way we interpret Scriptures. It's probably uniquely unusual that the Bible is basically an Hebraic (Eastern) text or story about Eastern or Hebraic people retold and recorded in the Greek language (Western perspective) and translated into English.
I think it would be a very useful thread and you could maybe be our ambassador to Eastern thinking via your Messianic experience. I would like to hear what some of the examples you find of the rub between Eastern and Western thinking. I DO realize the challenge of translating from an Eastern text or thought and accurately portraying the intended thought, especially in a comparatively limited language like English.
I like this idea. Maybe we can take turns?
The first thing I thought of was how Western/modern culture is very centered around the individual. We all choose our own professions, seek out education in our chosen field, choose ourselves a mate, and raise a nuclear family. Our identities are formed by our choices.
Eastern/ancient culture culture is instead about the group. Your profession would have been chosen by birth - you would apprentice to your father in the family business, and take over for him when he passed on. Your mate was likely chosen for you, or at the very least, was restricted to a small group of families that your own family knew and interacted with. Your identity was a product of your clan.
I find that this influences our understanding of salvation. Western minds tend to think of it in terms of individuals, whether that means individuals choosing to believe, or a system in which God picks out individuals and elects them for salvation.
An Eastern mindset thinks of it in terms of the group. Israel has already been elected. The concern for individuals is only whether they are part of the assembly of the elect (whether tribe or church). To be saved, one has to become part of the elect group, and that can only happen by changing one's parents. It is necessary to be "born again" in order that God may become a Father, whereby they join the family.
Jarrod
Thanks for the input Jarrod! I want to think on it a while.
Please pardon the link rather than my own thoughts. I thought there was some excellent thoughts here:
https://torahlifeministry.com/teachings/articles/23-bible-study/65-the-hebrew-v-greek-world-view.html (https://torahlifeministry.com/teachings/articles/23-bible-study/65-the-hebrew-v-greek-world-view.html)
I have to disagree with the Jarrod mindset, pardon the pun. Salvation is an individual concern. One doesn't join a group to be saved; rather the one who is saved joins the group. God doesn't save groups; He saves individuals. It is a signature difference between the old and the new covenants. The Holy Spirit is given to individuals, not to groups. He is a gift to the one who has been justified.
Paul was continually forced to contend with that Jewish mindset that being a Jew was necessary for salvation. The Judaizers tried to impose the necessity of "becoming" a Jew first by following the law of Moses and the Jewish customs. In particular they insisted upon circumcision as a defining characteristic. They demanded that one must first "join the group", then he could be saved. Paul vehemently denied that. That is one of the central themes of Romans 9. Being a member of the group, i.e., ethnic Israel, was not salvic in any sense. There were indeed advantages of being a Jew, according to the flesh; but salvation was not one of them (vv. 4-8).
Being born again has nothing to do with changing parents. It has to do with cleansing the sin-sullied spirit and returning it to its original condition as given by God in the first birth, hence born again.
And by the way, the fact that God, in Christianity, is dealing with us as individuals is the guiding principle for western civilization centering on the rights of the individual. It is to a large extent what drove the founding fathers to produce the Constitution of the United States which places the individual above the government. It is why the Marxist Left fights so hard against the Constitution and against God of the Bible. Leftism is government first.
: Jaime Wed Apr 19, 2023 - 15:36:31
Please pardon the link rather than my own thoughts. I thought there was some excellent thoughts here:
https://torahlifeministry.com/teachings/articles/23-bible-study/65-the-hebrew-v-greek-world-view.html (https://torahlifeministry.com/teachings/articles/23-bible-study/65-the-hebrew-v-greek-world-view.html)
I think that article laid out quite clearly the difference, not so much between Hebrew and Greek mindsets, but rather the difference between Judaism and Christianity; and that as laid out by Scripture. Quite against the author of that article, when Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the light", there is no problem understanding that from a "western mindset" point of view.
Yes Jesus is the only way, truth and light. The author is right about the Hebrew vs Greek or Western mindset. AND Messianic Jews and Gentile Christians have found Jesus inspite of our different perspectives. Jesus left plenty of clues for the Hebrew mindset to discover who he was. I think an understanding of the Hebrew culture and mindset is useful in understanding some scriptures that we as Westerners tend to glaze over. Without this understanding I think we miss some things.
For me personally, looking into the differences in the Hebrew and Western mindset has shown me that the Old Testament and the New Testament are ONE story, not two. The one story is way richer for me understanding that rather than the way I was raised. When I graduated from High School, my church congregation gave me a shiny New Testament with my name embossed on the cover. Looking back that seems so odd, knowing God's one story is comprised of BOTH the old and new testaments. THAT one story is much richer to me now.
One thing that I have discovered is that Jesus sometimes used the rabbinic technique of teaching called Remez.
As we all agree that being Jewish is NOT a prerequisite of salvation, BUT understanding the culture and history around the Bible is not a detriment.
https://www.worthbeyondrubies.com/remez/ (https://www.worthbeyondrubies.com/remez/)
The remez in this link doesn't change the story of the cross, but deepens it and enriches it for me and increases my faith.
: 4WD Wed Apr 19, 2023 - 17:16:22
God doesn't save groups; He saves individuals.
Oh, but He certainly saves groups. The prophets are almost universally aimed at whole people groups, whether Israel or Judah or some foreign country. "All Israel shall be saved" is right there, even in Romans 11.
: 4WD Wed Apr 19, 2023 - 17:16:22
It is a signature difference between the old and the new covenants.
You are conceding the whole of the Old Testament.... Are you sure that a God who does not change... uh, changed?
: 4WD Wed Apr 19, 2023 - 17:16:22
The Holy Spirit is given to individuals, not to groups.
Are you quite sure of that? The two New Testament examples in which the Spirit is initially given are both to groups - once to the apostles and once to the household of Cornelius.
: 4WD Wed Apr 19, 2023 - 17:16:22
Paul was continually forced to contend with that Jewish mindset that being a Jew was necessary for salvation. The Judaizers tried to impose the necessity of "becoming" a Jew first by following the law of Moses and the Jewish customs. In particular they insisted upon circumcision as a defining characteristic. They demanded that one must first "join the group", then he could be saved. Paul vehemently denied that. That is one of the central themes of Romans 9. Being a member of the group, i.e., ethnic Israel, was not salvic in any sense. There were indeed advantages of being a Jew, according to the flesh; but salvation was not one of them (vv. 4-8).
There is a difference between being/becoming ethnically Jewish, and being/becoming Israel spiritually.
Paul indeed fought against Judaizers. But he also proclaims that all believers have become children of Abraham (Romans 4, Galatians 3), echoing the teachings of Jesus and John before him. Indeed, for Paul the church is NOT under the Law of Moses BECAUSE we are under Abraham, whose covenant and promises exist BEFORE the Law (v.12).
: 4WD Wed Apr 19, 2023 - 17:16:22
Being born again has nothing to do with changing parents. It has to do with cleansing the sin-sullied spirit and returning it to its original condition as given by God in the first birth, hence born again.
Well of course it has everything to do with changing parents. Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? ::smile::
When the Pharisees came to question John and Jesus, their objection was - why are you baptizing people are (already) Jews? John told them, "God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham." That's a funny thing to say if all they were doing was a little spiritual laundry. But it makes a lot of sense if they were being added to the tribe.
: 4WD Wed Apr 19, 2023 - 17:16:22
And by the way, the fact that God, in Christianity, is dealing with us as individuals is the guiding principle for western civilization centering on the rights of the individual. It is to a large extent what drove the founding fathers to produce the Constitution of the United States which places the individual above the government. It is why the Marxist Left fights so hard against the Constitution and against God of the Bible. Leftism is government first.
I'm not sure what government has to do with anything. Israel is the people; not their government. Good thing, since God essentially capitated Israel, and installed His Son as the new Head for that Body.
Jarrod
Well Jarrod, I do hope you have not joined the wrong group.
But more to the point, Red Baker would be quite pleased with your thinking on this. He would likely have only a small correction. He would tell you that there is only one such group and that group is the elect. He would also tell you that being in that group is not your choice.
: 4WD Fri Apr 21, 2023 - 02:56:36
Red Baker would be quite pleased with your thinking on this. He would likely have only a small correction. He would tell you that there is only one such group and that group is the elect. He would also tell you that being in that group is not your choice.
Red and I don't usually agree on a lot.
I think perhaps right about now he's probably frothing at the mouth a bit with the two of us putting words in his mouth. ::lookaround::