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The following article is in 3 parts, all 3 are following below.

It has been pointed out to me that mysticism was discussed previously on GC but that was quite a long time ago.
Perhaps it has been within the past few years but I do not recall, or if it was it did not particularly grab me as the following did.

Part one of three... which is here ... I have copied and pasted exactly as presented and the only emphasis that would be mine is in blue... or perhaps bolded.

Mysticism and the Coming World Religion – Part 1
April 11, 2023
Bible Prophecy, Cults and False Religions, End Times
Mysticism and the Coming World Religion — Part 1
By T. A. McMahon

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." – 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4

"And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?" – Revelation 13:3-4

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." – Revelation 13:8

According to the Scriptures, in the last days prior to Christ's return a religion will appear that will deceive virtually the entire world into following it. It will be led by the Antichrist ("the beast"), who will be worshiped as God.

Scripture also indicates, however, that the bride of Christ will be removed from the earth in the Rapture (Jn 14:1-3; 1 Th 4:16-18) before that religion is fulfilled. If true, then why would the knowledge of the coming world religion be of value for true believers in Christ?

There are a number of reasons. First of all, the biblically false content of the coming world religion doesn't suddenly appear overnight. The seeds of it began in the Garden of Eden with Satan's seduction of Eve (Gn 3:1). His first words, "Yea, hath God said...?," set forth his strategy of undermining God's commands and instructions. That has continued right up to this present time and is increasing exponentially. Secondly, Satan's offer of godhood to Eve has manifested itself throughout history. Most of the religions of the Far East teach that God is everything or in everything, making everything and everyone God or part of God. Many of the Caesars and other rulers imposed the worship of themselves as deities upon their people. Those forms of idolatry will culminate in the worship of self, the Antichrist, and Satan.

Thirdly, Jesus characterized the days prior to His return for His bride as a time of great deception. He told His disciples, "Take heed that no man deceive you" (Mt 24:4 – emphasis added). His warning included deceits such as false Christs, lying signs and wonders, and unbiblical doctrines and teachers. Some have wrongly concluded that Christ's warning wasn't for believers, asserting that verse 24 implies that it would be impossible to "deceive the very elect" (24:24). That can't be the case because Jesus addressed this warning (v. 4) to His disciples — who were certainly His "elect." Fourthly, the Word of God gives multiple instructions on how to protect ourselves from the lies of Satan that can adversely affect our fruitfulness in the Lord.

These seductive and deceptive devices of God's chief adversary will increase prior to the Rapture, but God's Word gives us the prevention program against being seduced by Satan's lies: "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour" (1 Pt 5:8).

The Apostle Paul pointed to a time in the history of the church when a condition would be prevalent that would greatly undermine the faith of professing and true believers: "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables" (2 Tm 4:3). Sound doctrine — what is that? It's simply the teachings given to mankind by God through His prophets. It is God's written Word, His objective communication to humanity, containing information that comes directly from Him without the input of mankind. That's what makes it sound doctrine. God, being infinite, has communicated to finite man what He wants him to know and do. That's the only way finite humanity can truly know their infinite Creator and what He has in mind regarding them.

Undermining sound doctrine is Satan's primary goal in his attempt to shipwreck the faith and fruitfulness of believers. The strategy involves corrupting the Word of God by adding to it or subtracting from it. Thus the Scriptures are distorted through the input of fallen, finite man and the contributions of seducing spirits and doctrines of demons (1 Tm 4:1). Such modifications demolish the objective truth of Scripture. The Bible no longer stands as God's Word when "adjustments" are made by other sources. This is taking place today in unprecedented fashion, especially through the introduction (or re-introduction) of mysticism.

The antithesis of the objective Word of God, mysticism is defined by The Merriam-Webster Dictionary as "the belief that direct knowledge of God, spiritual truth, or ultimate reality can be attained through subjective experience such as intuition or insight," and adds that it is "vague speculation, a belief without sound basis." Google gives this definition: "belief characterized by self-delusion or dreamy confusion of thought, especially when based on the assumption of occult qualities or mysterious agencies." A mystical worldview, which is intensifying in both the world and its religions, will be foundational to the coming one-world religion.

Among many reasons, the primary one is that mysticism has a universal appeal that will attract and unify all the religions of the world. Why? Because it avoids doctrine (rules, regulations, commandments, obligations, requirements, etc.). The doctrines of the Bible are given by God and are to be obeyed; not obeying them is rebellion, which is the state of the world as well as the state of many within the church. The religions of the world also have doctrines, albeit false ones, against which their followers often rebel. Doctrines divide because people don't particularly like rules that demand obedience. The stricter the rules, the less attractive the religion. That's a potential problem for the religion of the Antichrist because its goal is to attract other belief systems and draw all people into its spiritual web.

Mysticism avoids objective rules and requirements, whether biblical or not. It's a belief system without a sound (objective) basis that majors on subjective experience, insights, intuition, dreamy confusion of thought (e.g., altered states of consciousness), speculation, and mysterious agencies. So the arbiter of what is right and true is how one feels: "If it feels right, then it must be right, and therefore ultimately true."

In order for mysticism to become the foundational belief system of the one-world religion, it must include all the world religions. With rare exceptions, the religions of the Far East are fundamentally mystical, so little change is necessary for them. But what of the law-oriented religions of Roman Catholicism and Islam? Their combined numbers exceed two billion followers, so they must be included in the religion of the Antichrist. Yet they are both legalistic—Catholicism with its canons and decrees, inquisitions, and obligations, and Islam with its Sharia laws. Obviously this must change in order for them to fit in with the necessary ecumenism of the one-world religion.

Such a change will likely be facilitated by the roots of mysticism that have been a part of both religions for centuries. In Roman Catholicism, for example, the influence of the Desert Fathers began in the third century, just before Constantine, and continued past the time of Augustine in the fourth and fifth centuries. These were hermits and mystics, living in seclusion, in caves, some of them attempting to imitate Jesus in His personal desert confrontation with the devil. Their fleshly attempts at overcoming Satan and his demons often led to madness. They lived in caves, isolated from the rest of civilization, which also led to altered states of consciousness. As we know today, that condition opens a person to communication with the spirit world, i.e., demons. An altered mental state often creates the illusion of oneness, or union, with God—the ultimate goal of mysticism.

This system of isolation was in place at the beginning of the development of the Roman Catholic Church. It was furthered through monasticism, in which monks and nuns withdrew from society by entering monasteries. The idea was to fully commit themselves to God by separating from the secular world. Some monastic orders took vows of silence. That left them vulnerable to the spirit realm. (Silence, by the way, is a huge feature of and heavily promoted by the contemplative movement today.)

In the sixteenth century, a Spaniard named Ignatius Loyola, who was the founder of the Jesuits, fostered mysticism through his Spiritual Exercises. They are enormously popular among Catholics and contemplative evangelicals today. One Jesuit source tells us: "Ignatius was convinced that God can speak to us as surely through our imagination as through our thoughts and memories. In the Ignatian tradition, praying with the imagination is called contemplation" (Kevin O'Brien, The Ignatian Adventure: Experiencing the Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius, p.141). "Praying with the imagination," by the way, is another term for creative visualization, a powerful occult technique that ushers the visualizer into the spirit realm.

Contemplative techniques have divorced the practitioner from the objective Word of God, leading one into the subjective arena of the imagination and feelings. This is what people like Richard Foster (Celebration of Discipline) and Sarah Young (Jesus Calling) are promoting. The practical consequences of disregarding critical judgment are often disastrous. Yet that is and will be the outcome of a religious system that people will flock to in the Last Days.

Following the mystical practices of Ignatius Loyola in our day were Catholics Thomas Merton and Henri Nouwen. Both are deceased. Merton was a Trappist monk and priest; Nouwen was also a priest, and both were well-known mystics. They were paragons of the modern contemplative movement and greatly influenced leading evangelicals such as Richard Foster, Dallas Willard, Eugene Peterson, Beth Moore, Kay Warren, and others. Merton studied the Desert Fathers and the Christian mystics and recognized their connection with the meditative practices of Eastern mysticism in Zen Buddhism, Taoism, and Sufism, which he taught and practiced. Asked if he felt that "turning away from traditional Christianity toward the East" would cause "an eventual turning back to a different form of Christianity, one that might even be more genuine," Merton replied, "Yes, I think so" (Merton, Thomas Merton: Preview of the Asian Journey, 53-54).

Henri Nouwen has become the favored mystic among evangelicals. One of his most popular books is Behold the Beauty of the Lord: Praying with Icons. It's an instruction manual on how to use imagery as the window of heaven in order to enter into the deeper things of the soul. Nouwen espouses mysticism because he sees it "as my call to help every person claim his or her own way to God." That doesn't seem to faze Rick Warren, who quotes him favorably in his best-selling Purpose Driven Life, or Kay Warren, who recommends Nouwen's books, or Philip Yancy, who sings his praises in Christianity Today, or Chuck Swindoll, who is enamored with his contemplative teachings, or Tony Campolo, who calls the deceased Catholic priest "one of the great Christians of our time."

Of late there is Pope Francis. Surging ahead at an ecumenical and mystical speed that thrills the world's religions and has left traditional Catholicism in its wake, the pope and his ecumenism has many professing Christians flocking to Rome at his personal invitation: Kenneth Copeland, James Robison, Rick Warren, Geoff Tunnicliffe, John Arnott, and Joel Osteen, to name a few. After meeting with the pope, Osteen said, "I like the fact that this pope is trying to make the church larger, not smaller. He's not pushing people out but making the church more inclusive. That resonated with me." Luis Palau has been a long-time friend of the pope, and Timothy George wrote an article for Christianity Today titled "Our Francis, Too: Why we can enthusiastically join arms with the Catholic leader."

The most influential evangelical pastor today, Rick Warren, refers to him as "our new pope." Pope Francis is certainly the man for the renewal of mystical Roman Catholicism. He's a Jesuit, fully rehearsed in the Spiritual Exercises. In his address before the US Congress recently, he praised mystic monk and priest Thomas Merton.

Many were appalled that one of the first overtures of the new head of the Roman Catholic Church in regard to winning and influencing evangelicals was to send a personal greeting to a conference led by Kenneth Copeland. Was the pope clueless about Copeland's false doctrines, his charismatic abuses, his prosperity distortions of Scripture, not to mention his con-man-like greed? I think not. Why? Because it doesn't really matter. Doctrines, whether true or false, take a back seat — or no seat at all — in mysticism. Remember, as noted, doctrines divide. Therefore they need to be pushed aside in order to make room for what helps people to get along, what encourages relationship building, what feels right. That was the gist of the Christianity Today article, "What Evangelicals Like about Francis." Never mind the theology of the pope. It's how he makes everyone feel. More and more, it seems, this is what's important to people.

Fewer and fewer evangelicals today seem to care that all the feel good stuff that Francis reflects personally won't save him or anyone else. Neither will the gospel of his Church save anyone – whether it's the new or the old Catholicism. The following quotes in the official Catholic catechism have been a mystery for quite a while. Many within and without the Church have been at a loss as to how to interpret them: "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God....The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods" (CCC paragraph 460). What is now becoming apparent is the way those statements fit perfectly with the foundational objective of mysticism: union with God.

The seeds of mysticism have certainly found fertile soil within legalistic Roman Catholicism, but what of the even more oppressive Sharia law that is foundational to Islam? Are Muslims therefore impervious to mystical beliefs?

(To be continued)

TBC

Before moving on to Part 2 in the next thread I will comment about this, for I found it to be quite eye opening and possibly in error.

"For the Son of God became man so that we might become God....The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods" (CCC paragraph 460). So I looked it up, as I encourage you too.

CCC460 http://scborromeo.org/ccc/para/460.htm

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
SECOND EDITION

460 The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature":"For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God." "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God." "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."

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Part two of three... which is here ... I have copied and pasted exactly as presented and the only emphasis that would be mine is in blue... or perhaps bolded.

Mysticism and the Coming World Religion – Part 2
April 11, 2023
Bible Prophecy, Cults and False Religions, End Times, Roman Catholicism
Mysticism and the Coming World Religion – Part 2
By T.A. McMahon

As noted in part one of this series, there is a coming world religion (CWR), and it is advancing rapidly. One of the significant elements that expedites its growth is mysticism, which is a belief system that ultimately rejects teachings that involve objective laws, rules, requirements, obligations, dogmas, doctrines, and the like, in favor of subjective experiences and intuitive feelings. The goal of the CWR (also known as the religion of the Antichrist) is to bring all religions under its patronage and control. Since all religions have doctrines that separate them from one another, even to the point of hostility in some cases, their doctrines must be compromised or altered in order to be acceptable to all — or they must be removed altogether. Mysticism facilitates doctrinal compromise because of its subjective nature. In other words, the objective meaning of a doctrine must give way to one's subjective interpretation, i.e., how one feels about it. When such a belief system is in place, there can be no absolute truth; so-called truth is whatever an individual feels it is. It's in the mind of the beholder.

Religions that are heavily legalistic in their theology must change in order to fit in with the ecumenical CWR. Two such religions are Roman Catholicism and Islam. In part one of this series we documented how the Church of Rome is well along the way of shifting from its highly legalistic system of rules and obligations toward a more mystical process. The Catholic Church has more than a billion followers, and they also must be included in the religion of the Antichrist. Islam, too, has greater than a billion adherents, so it also must become a part of the CWR. However, it is legalistic—and aggressively so — in its doctrine and practices, far more so than any other religion in the world. Consequently, many doubt that it could ever change.

Some have suggested, therefore, that the religion of the Antichrist will be Islam itself. For that to happen, the conversion of the world to Islamic beliefs would follow its historical method, which is at the point of a sword. Although that worked to a large degree in the past, it falls far short of what is necessary to spiritually transform the entire world. Additionally, there are obvious problems for this belief system regarding the coming religion of the Antichrist. The fact that the entire world will worship the Antichrist as God is inconsistent with and opposed by the Muslim worship of Allah. Sharia law, which is the Islamic code of law, is derived from the Qur'an and the Sunnah (Muhammad's teachings and examples). Consequences for disobeying Sharia laws are the harshest among religions. Its rules are overtly abusive regarding women. Furthermore, Islam's collectively intense hatred of Jews and Christians, as well as "all infidels," is diametrically opposed to the CWR's necessary ecumenism. These doctrines of Islam work against its efforts to attract followers to the coming world religion. What then, if anything, is there within Islam that might reconcile the billion-plus Muslims to the religion of the Antichrist, with its mystical underpinnings? The answer is Sufism.

Sufism is the mystical Islamic belief and practice through which Muslims seek to find the truth of divine love and knowledge by way of a direct personal experience with Allah. This is Islam in the throes of experiential and subjective beliefs and practices. Being functionally at odds with Sharia laws and practices, many Sufi practitioners reject the rules of Sharia outright, regarding mysticism as the most direct way to achieve union with Allah. Moreover, where it has been historically practiced throughout the world, Sufism has had no problem coexisting with other religions. This is not the case, as we're well aware, for Sharia-law Islam.

One mystical aspect of Sufism is for its practitioners to put themselves into an ecstatic trance or altered state of consciousness through whirling. These individuals are known as Whirling Dervishes. According to one source, "The hundreds of the Dervish twirling rotations (20-30 per minute) coincide with the theta rhythm in the brain, and the chanting (they repeat the word 'God' [more likely 'Allah,'] about 99 times) makes the dancers dissociate from reality and enter a different state of mind. When the ceremony is over, the dervishes return, side by side, in front of the sheikh [master and guide] and then move to another room to meditate. The physiological goal of the whirling is for the dervish to 'empty' himself of all distractions". It should be obvious that this is just another form of Eastern mystical meditation along with the contemplative forms practiced by more and more professing Christians in the West.

The various exercises of mysticism are similar throughout the world, even where there has been no connection between the cultures or people groups. Sufi meditation and yoga employ the same lotus sitting position and a hasta mudra (with the thumb curled and touching the tip of the forefinger). Sufi whirling has the same effect as the uncontrollable shaking in the Dynamic Meditation practiced by the followers of Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh. The Sufi Shaykh is similar to the guru in yoga in terms of the practitioner's absolute submission to him and obedience to the guidance given. In some practices, the Shaykh is a transcended spiritual entity channeled by the meditator. The Encyclopedia of Islam lists a number of manifestations found within the meditation practices of Sufism, e.g., "barking and howling" (MacDonald, D. B. "Darwish (Darwesh)," Encyclopedia of Islam, Second Edition, edited by: P. B. Bearman, Th. Bianquis, C. E. Bosworth, E. van Donzel and W. P. Heinrichs, Brill Online, Augustana, 21 Sept 2009), behavior that was also exhibited through the so-called impartation of the Holy Spirit in places such as the Toronto Airport Vineyard, Pensacola and Lakeland, Florida, International House of Prayer (IHOP), and Bethel Church in Redding, California, among numerous others. These experiences taking place throughout the world should give one more than a hint that spirit entities, contacted through altered states of consciousness and meditation, as well as some people's faith in the false signs-and-wonders methods, have been facilitating Satan's goal of seducing and controlling the consciousness and beliefs of mankind. "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils" (1 Timothy 4:1).

Mehmet Oz, better known as Dr. Oz, is someone whom I would describe as the poster boy for everything that I've been noting in this article, which is the acceptance of all religions in the formation of a one-world religion. He is a Muslim — a Sufi Muslim. He is also a New Ager and a national spokesman for Transcendental Meditation or TM. TM is the pseudo-scientific title conjured up by Hindu guru Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. The Maharishi, who came to fame as the spiritual advisor and guru to the Beatles, began teaching meditation in US schools as the Spiritual Regeneration Movement, but it was shut down because the courts realized that it was clearly a religion. The Maharishi simply renamed it The Science of Transcendental Meditation [emphasis added]. This incredibly important alteration was not only successful in promoting his Hinduism in schools, but it also opened the door for other pseudoscientific forms of meditation such as Mindfulness and MindUP, which have been overwhelmingly accepted by our school systems here in the US.

Dr. Oz is a protégé of Oprah Winfrey, who is the leading advocate of New Age beliefs and practices in America. Dr. Oz, a Muslim, is a close second. How can that be? Oz has explained that he grew up in America with parents who were diverse in their Muslim beliefs — one leaned toward Sufism and the other toward Sharia law. "I found myself tugged more to the spiritual side of the religion rather than the legal side of the religion... [Sufism] is the order I resonate to because it's much more mystical... [Sufis] are more concerned with the true connection with God... But when you get caught up in the religious legal aspects of religion, it frustrates me to no end." Dr. Oz also noted with enthusiasm that his wife, a "Protestant," is a follower of the teachings of Emanuel Swedenborg who was heavily involved in mystical experiences (as well as blatant biblical heresies).

Dr. Oz personifies what I have been trying to explain regarding what could attract humanity to the coming subjective, experiential, and feelings-oriented one-world religion. Laws, rules, doctrines, and requirements are out; intuition, feelings, and mystical experiences are in. Dr. Oz's charisma and enthusiasm for the mystical have already deceived millions, Christians and non-Christians alike, toward the direction of the CWR. Rick Warren had Mehmet Oz as a teacher of meditation (read "occult meditation") for the "Daniel Plan" weight loss program that Warren promoted for his Saddleback Church members and his followers.

Changes are taking place in the world — new concepts that are speeding along at a breathtaking rate. Furthermore, these are changes that defy logic and reason. As the lyrics of a modern song plead seductively, "If it feels so right, how can it be wrong?" And an even more recent popular tune exclaims in its title, "Wrong feels so right!" The very idea that something could be considered "wrong" has not only been questioned, but it is now regarded as belonging to the "archaic realm of judgmentalism." Daring to call something wrong has become the social sin of the day, and it's being drowned in the deluge of "let your feelings be your guide."

In the 1977 blockbuster, Star Wars, which was the most financially successful (and therefore influential) movie series in the history of motion pictures, Yoda (as in "Yoga") instructs Luke Skywalker to control the Force with this admonition: "Luke, trust your feelings." Eastern mysticism has gone viral in the West. What were once foreign terms such as karma or guru or deva or mantra have become commonplace. What used to be the Young Men's Christian Association has morphed into the Yoga Mastery Coaching Association. The latest survey has the number of practitioners of yoga at 37 million people in the US, with projections of 80 million over the next few years. Numerous evangelical churches have pushed aside pews in their sanctuaries in order to practice "Christian" Yoga. "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" (Isaiah 5:20).

The chief reinforcement from the world for the development of the mystical religion of the Antichrist, however, comes from the pseudoscience and religion of psychology. Psychology has duped mankind into accepting psychotherapy as a science when it has no basis in true science. Most of the practice comprises a subjective belief system, i.e., a religion. This is abundantly clear particularly as it pertains to counseling, which is overwhelmingly the largest field of psychology. How, then, does psychotherapy bolster the development of the Antichrist's mystical spirituality? Consider just a few of psychotherapy's Antichrist beliefs:

1) Mankind is innately good. That innate goodness, we are told, is the source of the "true self." Getting back to our true self is accomplished through the psychotherapeutic process of self-actualization. Self-actualization, conjured up by Abraham Maslow, is no different from the Eastern mystical teaching of self-realization — realizing one's godhood.

2) Sin is simply wrong thinking. Sin, we are told, is a construct of judgmental religions imposing their beliefs and practices upon humanity. It is a control mechanism that prohibits mankind from reaching its potential — which, again, is godhood.

3) Being guided by one's feelings is the basis for true wellness. Feelings emanate from one's subconscious, which, we're told, is where one's true self resides. Being true to one's feelings, therefore, is the ultimate path of truth.

Carl Jung, who is highly favored in Christendom, claimed that the comprehension of Eastern mystical thought was essential if Western psychology was to develop. Psychology Today years ago added its own confirmation to the changes we're seeing now by declaring that Eastern mysticism would come to the West through psychology. It has, and it will continue until the second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The demonic strategy of mysticism (which is union with God) is to make man believe that he is God. That lie had its beginning in heaven when Lucifer declared, "I will be like the most High (God)" (Isaiah 14:14). His prideful self-delusion turned him from being a "light bringer" (which was what his name meant) to what he is now — God's chief adversary and the ruler of the darkness of this world, Satan. He then introduced the lie of Godhood to humanity by convincing Eve that she could become a god (Genesis 3:5) and this lie will culminate with the Antichrist, "...who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God" (2 Thessalonians 2:4).

Of course, the lie of godhood will not be exclusive to Antichrist but rather will be all-inclusive. Universally, it will likely take on the form that we find in the Namaste of Hinduism, where a person "recognizes the divinity of another" by declaring, "I bow down to the god in you," or the grand delusion of Mormonism: "As man is, God once was; and as God is, man may become."

That is the religion of the Antichrist. It will continue to increase in various forms until it reaches its fulfillment when the "man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition" (2 Thessalonians 2:3). As our Lord warned us, the times prior to His return for His church will be days of great spiritual deception (Matthew 24:4). How, then, should believers who are living in these perilous days not only protect themselves spiritually but also be fruitful and productive in order to do His will and look forward to His coming? That will be the subject of Part 3.

TBC

Original Article

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Part three of three... which is here ... I have copied and pasted exactly as presented and the only emphasis that would be mine is in blue... or perhaps bolded.

Mysticism and the Coming World Religion – Part 3
April 11, 2023
Bible Prophecy, Cults and False Religions, End Times, Roman Catholicism
Mysticism and the Coming World Religion, Part 3 – Spiritual Protection
By T. A. McMahon

"Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand...Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints." – Ephesians 6:13, 16-18

"And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers." – Acts:2:42

What lies ahead, according to the Scriptures, regarding the increasing development of mysticism today has been addressed in the previous two articles presented in October and November. That's one of the purposes of biblical prophecy: to have believers "take heed." But being aware of what's coming is only part of what God would have us know. There is also the "what we are to do" part. And the good news is that He enables us by His grace and His Holy Spirit.

How we go about our life in Christ is critical. Whether in peace or persecution, in poverty or prosperity, in sickness or in health, our condition cannot determine a response that keeps us from being fruitful, productive, and pleasing to the Lord. That certainly makes no sense to the world and, sadly, many Christians are confused by it. Yet that's the gist of John 10:10: "I [Jesus] am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." How can persecution, poverty, and sickness equate with an abundant life? That doesn't seem right, but perhaps one's definition of "abundantly" inhibits a correct biblical understanding of the word.

If we're thinking that the abundant life is one filled only with the physical pleasures and provisions of life to the suspension of things not so pleasant or seemingly favorable, we've misunderstood John 10:10, as well as other verses throughout Scripture. That erroneous mindset cannot reconcile the joy indicated in verses such as 2 Corinthians 7:4: "...I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation," and 2 Corinthians 8:2: "How that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality." Words such as "tribulation," "trial of affliction," and "deep poverty" seem at odds with "abundance" and may lead a person to a misunderstanding that could play havoc in a believer's life in Christ.

Jesus said, "Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of Man's sake. Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets" (Luke 6:22-23). The point of bringing these verses to our attention is because as we draw closer to the return of Jesus Christ, the obstacles, both physical and spiritual, will increase. Many of our brothers and sisters throughout the world are already undergoing horrendous persecution. Where that is limited, such as here in the West, spiritual deception and seduction are running rampant, thereby shipwrecking the faith of multitudes of believers. Ignorance of what the Scriptures teach is a major contributor to said conditions, but there are numerous verses that every biblical Christian needs to understand in order to successfully weather the trials and tribulations that will surely come.

The good news is that God has provided "abundantly" everything a true believer in Jesus needs in order to be fruitful in his or her life in Christ. The Apostle Peter wrote, "According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue" (2 Peter 1:3). "All things" means all things, and therefore that must include spiritual protection in the days that Jesus characterized by declaring, "Take heed that no man deceives you," and "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect" (Matthew 24:4, 24). Furthermore, the good news is that the biblical prevention program against being led astray by the cunning deceits of the Adversary is that it is neither complicated nor formidable. Here are the basic elements for preventing being deceived: the Word of God, prayer, and fellowship.

"All things" that the Lord has provided are empowered by the Holy Spirit and enabled through His grace. The preventative process against being spiritually duped isn't complex, but it does demand a willing heart, a love of the truth, and the exercise of discipline. Avoiding being deceived or seduced by the apostasy must begin with the Word of God and our commitment to it, meaning a consistent reading of the Bible – daily. There is no better habit for the man, woman, and child of God. James gives the primary exhortation for that: "Submit yourselves therefore to God." (James 4:7) That must include submitting ourselves to God's instructions. Two things here: we can't submit to instructions we haven't read, and submission involves doing what God has instructed.

God's Word has long been held as a Christian's authority. Today, although many evangelicals profess that they do believe in the authority of Scripture in matters of faith and practice, in actuality they deny them in practice. A young man who was a local leader in promoting the Emerging Church Movement came in to see me one day. Previous to that, I was praying about how I could explain some things to him and perhaps help him to get back on track with God's Word. As we were about to start our conversation, I said that I thought it would be very helpful if we acknowledged to what spiritual authority each of us was submitting. With my Bible squarely in front of him, I said, "This book is my authority. What's your authority?" He looked around, and looked around, as though searching for a response, and then finally said, "My God is bigger than that book." I wasn't shocked by his answer because I've heard it a number of times. Nevertheless, I followed that by responding that he must therefore have other authorities, and who might they be in whom he was trusting in place of God? Needless to say, our "conversation" went nowhere worthwhile after that.

Most Christians tend to hang on to the belief in the authority of God's Word, but functionally they bail out on it. That's because they don't really believe in the sufficiency of Scripture. That's unfortunate. It's also senseless. Why? Because anyone who claims to believe in the authority of God's Word but denies its sufficiency means he doesn't believe it has all the answers that it claims. Therefore, if a person feels he must go elsewhere for answers, he's doing...what? He's looking for another authority.

It should be obvious that not believing in the Bible's sufficiency is a rejection of its authority. Again, the Bible makes it absolutely clear regarding its sufficiency. Second Timothy 3:16-17 proclaims: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." These expressions — "inspiration," being "profitable," giving "instruction" in order to grow in maturity, and being "furnished" (equipped) for every good work — certainly confirm sufficiency. Ephesians 2:10 spells out a major reason for God making His Word sufficient for every believer: "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." And by "all things that pertain to life and godliness," which we noted in Peter's second epistle, Scripture is referring to all that is necessary to please God regarding things that have both temporal and eternal value. To what or to whom should a believer in Christ turn for that?

The daily habit of reading the Word of God, recognizing its sufficiency for our growth, maturity, fruitfulness — and then doing what it says by God's enablement — is necessary for protection against spiritual deception. And that must be under-girded by prayer. "In every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God" – Philippians:4:6.

Hopefully, we all realize that when the verse says "every thing," it means everything. A number of years ago when I was in England I was with a couple of believers, guys I hadn't met before, but after spending a few days with them, I was stunned by their approach to what we were doing: they prayed about everything. Although I wasn't used to their zeal for prayer, the way they went about it reflected it as a seamless part of their lives. They prayed at the day's beginning, prior to a drive to a meeting, for the spiritual blessing of the meeting, thanking the Lord at meals, for those we met along the way, and on and on. I found myself singing phrases from the hymn What a Friend We Have in Jesus: All our sins and griefs to bear. What a privilege to carry everything to God in prayer. That experience with them got me both excited and re-invigorated about how important prayer is.

When I came out of the Roman Catholic Church and into a personal relationship with Jesus, it was difficult at first (on my part) to make that relationship truly personal. My early prayer life more closely reflected the rote prayers I practiced for decades when Jesus was hardly a "friend" to me — certainly far less so than His mother. As the evangelical church of late has become enamored with the Church of Rome, many are practicing contemplative prayer, which has been a historic part of Catholicism from the Desert Fathers to the modern-day promotions of mystic priests such as Henri Nouwen and Thomas Merton. Although the claim is that contemplative prayer is more intimate and draws one closer to God, the reality is that it involves hundreds of vain repetitions of phrases and singular words, a process that is condemned in Scripture (Matthew 6:7-8) and renders intelligent communication totally absurd.

Biblical prayer, on the other hand, consists of a believer's personal communication with his Creator. Although fully God, Jesus is also fully Man. He demonstrated the intimate relationship we are to have with Him and with God the Father in numerous ways He drew away from the crowds in order to commune with His Father: "And when he had sent the multitudes away, he went up into a mountain apart to pray: and when the evening was come, he was there alone." and at times He "continued all night in prayer" (Matthew 14:23; Luke 6:12). Prayer, according to the Scriptures, is set forth as an imperative for the believer. We are to pray "without ceasing," "always," "exceedingly," "night and day," regarding whatever conditions beset us. We are to pray for our brothers and sisters in Christ (Romans 15:30), for our rulers, as well as for our enemies (1 Timothy 2:1-2; Luke 6:27-28). The simple reason that biblical prayer is so important is that we cannot do anything that has eternal value except by God's grace, and that is mostly received through prayer.

Specific to spiritual protection we are exhorted to pray "always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints" (Ephesians 6:18). The Apostle Paul asked for prayer "that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men"...declaring that "the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil" (2 Thessalonians 3:1-3). Moreover, and better yet, we have Jesus, who prayed for Peter that his faith would not fail (Luke 22:32), and who now is at the right hand of the Father making "intercession for the saints" (Romans 8:27, 34).

Another necessary element in regard to preventing being seduced or deceived by the increasing apostasy may be the most difficult one to satisfy or maintain. It has to do with fellowship. Scripture declares "Two are better than one; because they have a good reward for their labour. For if they fall, the one will lift up his fellow: but woe to him that is alone when he falleth; for he hath not another to help him up. Again, if two lie together, then they have heat: but how can one be warm alone? And if one prevail against him, two shall withstand him; and a threefold cord is not quickly broken" (Ecclesiastes 4:9-12).

Those verses give simple insight regarding how we should go about dealing with these troubling times that aggressively oppose the Bible's instructions for living our lives in a way that is pleasing to the Lord. Fellowship with like-minded brothers and sisters in Christ is a major part of the Lord's instructions, given for our protection, strengthening, and fruitfulness. Ecclesiastes implies that those who disdain fellowship have put themselves into a weak and vulnerable position: "Two are better than one... For if they fall, the one will lift up his fellow: but woe to him that is alone when he falleth; for he hath not another to help him up." A believer who has no one to support him spiritually will find himself in trouble sooner or later. When any of us gets knocked down spiritually, we need a fellow believer to help us up — mentally, emotionally, and, most important, spiritually. As for those who declare, "The Lord is all we need," too often, their subsequent thinking is out of line with God's Word. Jesus said in Luke 6:46, "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" We as believers need to "circle our wagons" now and in the days ahead. Our best option is in a church fellowship, supporting the leadership that is steadfast and staying the course of God's Word, and especially — serving the body. When that isn't an option, we must ask the Lord to help us to find another committed believer or believers with whom we may have a Bible study, with whom we can pray, with whom we might minister to one another, encourage one another, and with whom we can gather together for doctrinal discernment and spiritual fortification. "And if one prevail against him, two shall withstand him; and a threefold cord is not quickly broken." First and foremost, that third strand must be the Lion of Judah, the Lamb of God, our Lord and Savior Jesus himself.

In summary, the Word of God, prayer, and fellowship are the biblical keys empowered by God's grace for a believer's spiritual protection. By His grace, may we be motivated to make these a priority as we see the spiritual darkness overtake the world around us.

TBC

Original Article

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In summary, the Word of God, prayer, and fellowship are the biblical keys empowered by God's grace for a believer's spiritual protection. By His grace, may we be motivated to make these a priority as we see the spiritual darkness overtake the world around us.

Keep it simple. Not rocket science, just a lot of interference from the enemy. The final deception is not rocket science either. Though God will allow strong delusion to empower it. This is only because most have already rejected the truth and chosen to believe lies. When it comes right down to it, though deception is rife and abundant, the final deception only needs to be as simple as the first one. One choice, regarding the rejection of just one commandment of God by almost all, and the harvests of the world will be ripe for reaping.

Just like in the garden. One choice, regarding one command, equaled humanity lifting themselves up above God who gave that command. It started this whole mess. We will either worship God, or we will worship the beast, according to that one choice. It will end, as it began. As the article pointed out, it is an issue of authority. Whose authority will we choose? Because that is who we worship.

This world is waxing old. The bible predicts that eventually mens hearts will be failing them for fear of those things coming upon it. Fear inspires religious fervor. The fear mongering politics we have been witnessing especially concerning Climate Control will increasingly be empowered as the events the scriptures predict increase as well. People, including many nominal "Christians" will get real religious real fast, for the wrong reason. They will agree to legislate some form of worship in response to the fear they are experiencing in relation to offending God. Yet they will not abandon the lies or life styles they have chosen which blatantly contradict God's word. Therefore will strong delusion sent by God Himself overtake them, and they will try to force a form of false worship upon the world as a consequence. Just one choice, worship God as he has commanded, or worship self as humanity will command in contradiction. So be it, as God's word has determined.

Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 12  nd he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

There are so many wrong premises included in the comments above...

For one thing, none of the comments above include a consideration of the power of the Spirit of God at work in this world.  God has promised concerning His kingdom in this world that it will increase like leaven, like the mustard seed, like the rock which Daniel's prophesies said would increase in size until it filled the whole world.  These are not vain promises.  These promises are polar opposite to the expectations expressed above that there will be a one-world religion that overtakes the globe.  Concerning Christ's kingdom, the promise was "of the INCREASE of His government and of His peace THERE SHALL BE NO END".  America's current moral lapses notwithstanding, God's Spirit is STILL at work, and His kingdom is incrementally increasing.

The problem is that those who read about the Revelation 13 deception and worship of the Beast that will overtake those "in the EARTH" are presuming that this includes the entire globe's citizens.  It doesn't.  Those Revelation predictions were for those in "TES GES", which to John's Jewish audience meant "THE LAND of Israel".   That deception already took place long, long ago in the first century when Satan's "little season" was THEN TAKING PLACE.  Satan's "little season" of ramped-up deception was not going to last for thousands of years.  It lasted until AD 70 when Satan and the entire demonic realm was destroyed by God. 

What deception we have taking place today is that which originates from the human heart itself - and needs no Satanic presence to jump-start it. 

There is pessimism just dripping from this post, with a mindset of fear that is saturating it.  We are not to have a spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.  God is not in heaven wringing His hands in desperation over the antics of sinful men.  He in incrementally visiting those He intends to receive salvation, and is steadily at work by the Spirit's power building a kingdom that will never cease.  Those who can't see this are looking at the tossing of the waves, and not at the hand of the One standing on the surface of those waves reaching out a reassuring hand to us.  If you keep looking at the waves, you will sink in despair instead of walking on the water in faith. 

   

: 3 Resurrections  Mon May 01, 2023 - 10:06:23
There are so many wrong premises included in the comments above...

For one thing, none of the comments above include a consideration of the power of the Spirit of God at work in this world.  God has promised concerning His kingdom in this world that it will increase like leaven, like the mustard seed, like the rock which Daniel's prophesies said would increase in size until it filled the whole world.  These are not vain promises.  These promises are polar opposite to the expectations expressed above that there will be a one-world religion that overtakes the globe.  Concerning Christ's kingdom, the promise was "of the INCREASE of His government and of His peace THERE SHALL BE NO END".  America's current moral lapses notwithstanding, God's Spirit is STILL at work, and His kingdom is incrementally increasing.

The problem is that those who read about the Revelation 13 deception and worship of the Beast that will overtake those "in the EARTH" are presuming that this includes the entire globe's citizens.  It doesn't.  Those Revelation predictions were for those in "TES GES", which to John's Jewish audience meant "THE LAND of Israel".   That deception already took place long, long ago in the first century when Satan's "little season" was THEN TAKING PLACE.  Satan's "little season" of ramped-up deception was not going to last for thousands of years.  It lasted until AD 70 when Satan and the entire demonic realm was destroyed by God. 

What deception we have taking place today is that which originates from the human heart itself - and needs no Satanic presence to jump-start it. 

There is pessimism just dripping from this post, with a mindset of fear that is saturating it.  We are not to have a spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.  God is not in heaven wringing His hands in desperation over the antics of sinful men.  He in incrementally visiting those He intends to receive salvation, and is steadily at work by the Spirit's power building a kingdom that will never cease.  Those who can't see this are looking at the tossing of the waves, and not at the hand of the One standing on the surface of those waves reaching out a reassuring hand to us.  If you keep looking at the waves, you will sink in despair instead of walking on the water in faith. 

Nice little fairy tale, but not at all the testimony of scripture. It is not about fear, it is about giving the warnings the New Testament is filled with. Because it is not about us, our fear or not. Perfect love casts out fear. It is about giving fair warning to the world, and the salvation of many a deceived soul.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. 4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia:

The revelation of Jesus Christ is to and for the seven churches. Not Israel. Unless of course you mean spiritual Israel, which is the true church.

: 3 Resurrections  Mon May 01, 2023 - 10:06:23
There are so many wrong premises included in the comments above...

For one thing, none of the comments above include a consideration of the power of the Spirit of God at work in this world.  God has promised concerning His kingdom in this world that it will increase like leaven, like the mustard seed, like the rock which Daniel's prophesies said would increase in size until it filled the whole world.  These are not vain promises.  These promises are polar opposite to the expectations expressed above that there will be a one-world religion that overtakes the globe.  Concerning Christ's kingdom, the promise was "of the INCREASE of His government and of His peace THERE SHALL BE NO END".  America's current moral lapses notwithstanding, God's Spirit is STILL at work, and His kingdom is incrementally increasing.

The problem is that those who read about the Revelation 13 deception and worship of the Beast that will overtake those "in the EARTH" are presuming that this includes the entire globe's citizens.  It doesn't.  Those Revelation predictions were for those in "TES GES", which to John's Jewish audience meant "THE LAND of Israel".   That deception already took place long, long ago in the first century when Satan's "little season" was THEN TAKING PLACE.  Satan's "little season" of ramped-up deception was not going to last for thousands of years.  It lasted until AD 70 when Satan and the entire demonic realm was destroyed by God. 

What deception we have taking place today is that which originates from the human heart itself - and needs no Satanic presence to jump-start it. 

There is pessimism just dripping from this post, with a mindset of fear that is saturating it.  We are not to have a spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.  God is not in heaven wringing His hands in desperation over the antics of sinful men.  He in incrementally visiting those He intends to receive salvation, and is steadily at work by the Spirit's power building a kingdom that will never cease.  Those who can't see this are looking at the tossing of the waves, and not at the hand of the One standing on the surface of those waves reaching out a reassuring hand to us.  If you keep looking at the waves, you will sink in despair instead of walking on the water in faith. 

::frown::

Hi 3W,

Not altogether surprised to find you replying but you are wrong.

Your preterist mindset will not allow you to see what is transforming in front of all of our eyes as they are happening and about to happen and will eventually happen.

But stay tuned for this ride is far from over . As the title of this article says... the Coming World Religion... It has only just begun... and yes,  world meand all of this ball of dirt that we inhabit.

: Rella  Tue May 02, 2023 - 06:54:20
::frown::

Hi 3W,

Not altogether surprised to find you replying but you are wrong.

Your preterist mindset will not allow you to see what is transforming in front of all of our eyes as they are happening and about to happen and will eventually happen.

But stay tuned for this ride is far from over . As the title of this article says... the Coming World Religion... It has only just begun... and yes,  world meand all of this ball of dirt that we inhabit.

Hi Rella,

My Preterist views have absolutely nothing to do with my reminding you of scripture's promised progress of the kingdom of God in this world.  You are totally ignoring the symbols which scripture gives (the leaven, the growing rock kingdom, the mustard seed, etc.) that illustrate the prevailing power and the continual growth of Christ's kingdom.  Christ promised that not even the gates of Hades can withstand this - let alone a world culture that would try to enforce a single religion on this globe.  You are not giving the Holy Spirit the proper recognition of His abilities to make trophies for God out of the most despicable characters that have ever practiced evil in this world.

I have made no secret of my beliefs that we are rapidly approaching a transition point for this globe's status.  I have called it "God's Y2K" coming up in 2033, because it will have been 2,000 years since Christ's resurrection in AD 33.  The turmoil in this world and the moral chaos are just setting the stage for the year 2033 when the whole world will be transitioning  into a sort of Sabbath mode - a fallow period of existence which will characterize the majority of the next, final, 7th millennium of fallen man's history on this planet. 

God is going to press the "reset button", as it were, to humble humanity's vain opinion of itself and its accomplishments.  This will be for the betterment of mankind.  Can you honestly say that if the grid goes down, and abortion clinics are unable to operate, that this will not be a true blessing in disguise?

There will be no one-world religion.  Scripture does not predict one for our generation.  As you have surely noticed by now, it is extremely difficult for even two people posting on this website to come to an agreement on their doctrinal stance.  What makes you think that the entire world will be able to unify on a single religious position, if not even two people on this website are on exactly the same page?

: Amo  Mon May 01, 2023 - 23:03:33
Nice little fairy tale, but not at all the testimony of scripture. It is not about fear, it is about giving the warnings the New Testament is filled with. Because it is not about us, our fear or not. Perfect love casts out fear. It is about giving fair warning to the world, and the salvation of many a deceived soul.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. 4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia:

The revelation of Jesus Christ is to and for the seven churches. Not Israel. Unless of course you mean spiritual Israel, which is the true church.

Hey Amo,

Not really sure what you are referring to by the "fairy tale" comment.  Perhaps, (as RB used to write), you are certain that I am deluded about the Satanic realm being destroyed back in AD 70.   That seems to be the hill that most are willing to die on.  People are addicted to the idea of still having the devil around to whom they can pass the blame for the world's evil - even when God predicted in Isaiah and Ezekiel that Satan would be slain and turned into ashes on the earth almost 2,000 years ago.  The Catholic church has used the threat of Satan like a sword hanging over people's heads for generations.  There's nothing like fear of the demonic spirit world to motivate a deluded congregation into supporting and obeying all the Catholic church's dictates.   

I've no argument that Revelation was written to the seven churches of Asia.  What I wrote about Revelation 13 and "those on the earth" (tes ges) being Israelites giving homage to the Roman Sea Beast back then does not contradict this fact about John addressing the 7 churches of Asia. Those 7 churches needed a warning of what was soon "about to" occur in their generation. Satan back then was "about to throw some of them into prison".  They were not to fear what they were"about to suffer" in tribulation for Christ's name for a 10-day term.  From this timely warning to that generation, we can always extrapolate a lesson in how to remain faithful under any kind of persecution ourselves.  However, this hardly means that the exact imminent dangers the 7 Asian churches would soon be experiencing back then were predictions whose fulfillment would be delayed until our generation.  God fulfilled those imminent predictions of tribulation back then, and these particular prophesies are not hanging over our own heads today. 

I'm not even sure why you quoted those verses from Revelation 1 above, since they speak in no uncertain terms that the time for those prophesied events was THEN "AT HAND".  That doesn't mean a 2,000 year delay and still counting until these events would happen.  "At hand" meant that the beginning of those prophesies of future events had already begun taking place in the days of those John was originally addressing.  You don't believe this, so I'm not sure why you are quoting these verses. 

: 3 Resurrections  Tue May 02, 2023 - 10:25:05
Hi Rella,

My Preterist views have absolutely nothing to do with my reminding you of scripture's promised progress of the kingdom of God in this world.  You are totally ignoring the symbols which scripture gives (the leaven, the growing rock kingdom, the mustard seed, etc.) that illustrate the prevailing power and the continual growth of Christ's kingdom.  Christ promised that not even the gates of Hades can withstand this - let alone a world culture that would try to enforce a single religion on this globe.  You are not giving the Holy Spirit the proper recognition of His abilities to make trophies for God out of the most despicable characters that have ever practiced evil in this world.

I have made no secret of my beliefs that we are rapidly approaching a transition point for this globe's status.  I have called it "God's Y2K" coming up in 2033, because it will have been 2,000 years since Christ's resurrection in AD 33.  The turmoil in this world and the moral chaos are just setting the stage for the year 2033 when the whole world will be transitioning  into a sort of Sabbath mode - a fallow period of existence which will characterize the majority of the next, final, 7th millennium of fallen man's history on this planet. 

God is going to press the "reset button", as it were, to humble humanity's vain opinion of itself and its accomplishments.  This will be for the betterment of mankind.  Can you honestly say that if the grid goes down, and abortion clinics are unable to operate, that this will not be a true blessing in disguise?

There will be no one-world religion.  Scripture does not predict one for our generation.  As you have surely noticed by now, it is extremely difficult for even two people posting on this website to come to an agreement on their doctrinal stance.  What makes you think that the entire world will be able to unify on a single religious position, if not even two people on this website are on exactly the same page?

3R, this likely should go off in another thread but since few ever involve themselves I will ask you a question.

Was Herod responsible for the  killing of all 2 year olds and under after he realized the Wise Men did not come back with a location to him?

: Rella  Tue May 02, 2023 - 16:24:12
3R, this likely should go off in another thread but since few ever involve themselves I will ask you a question.

Was Herod responsible for the  killing of all 2 year olds and under after he realized the Wise Men did not come back with a location to him?

Well, that certainly is a question coming out of left field, but that's okay.  I should say from scripture testimony that Herod was the instrument by which the prophecy was fulfilled (in a secondary sense) about Bethlehem's sons dying and Rachel weeping for those children.  Yet the guilt for that murder of the innocents of Bethlehem lies squarely on Herod's shoulders. 

: 3 Resurrections  Tue May 02, 2023 - 18:07:53
Well, that certainly is a question coming out of left field, but that's okay.  I should say from scripture testimony that Herod was the instrument by which the prophecy was fulfilled (in a secondary sense) about Bethlehem's sons dying and Rachel weeping for those children.  Yet the guilt for that murder of the innocents of Bethlehem lies squarely on Herod's shoulders.

OK, when do you believe Herod the great died?

And please cite your source.

Britannica says in 4 BC

Never Thirsty says  about 4 BCE

Wiki says 4BCE

Professor John A. Cramer argues that Herod the Great most likely died shortly after the lunar eclipse of December 29, 1 B.C., rather than that of March 13, 4 B.C., which, as Cramer points out, is the eclipse traditionally associated with Josephus's description in Jewish Antiquities 17.6.4

Jaime gaave a link that says it is believed to be 4 BC

https://edition.cnn.com/2002/HEALTH/conditions/01/25/king.herod/

Scholars believe Herod died in the year 4 BC. The Jewish historian Flavius Josephus recorded details of his death, telling of symptoms that included intense itching, intestinal pain, shortness of breath, convulsions, and gangrene of the genitalia. Hirschmann used these texts to make his diagnosis.

So what say you? Yes, I am heading somewhere.[/size]

: Rella  Tue May 02, 2023 - 19:21:39

OK, when do you believe Herod the great died?

And please cite your source.

Britannica says in 4 BC

Never Thirsty says  about 4 BCE

Wiki says 4BCE

Professor John A. Cramer argues that Herod the Great most likely died shortly after the lunar eclipse of December 29, 1 B.C., rather than that of March 13, 4 B.C., which, as Cramer points out, is the eclipse traditionally associated with Josephus's description in Jewish Antiquities 17.6.4

Jaime gaave a link that says it is believed to be 4 BC

https://edition.cnn.com/2002/HEALTH/conditions/01/25/king.herod/
So what say you? Yes, I am heading somewhere.

4 BC more than likely.  Source is Ussher's "Annals of the World".  He is not always on target with his dates, but in this case, I believe he is correct.  And I'm sure you have a certain reason for bringing this up.

Be careful so that you are not left behind.

My Preterist views have absolutely nothing to do with my reminding you of scripture's promised progress of the kingdom of God in this world.  You are totally ignoring the symbols which scripture gives (the leaven, the growing rock kingdom, the mustard seed, etc.) that illustrate the prevailing power and the continual growth of Christ's kingdom.

The pot calling the kettle black. You are totally ignoring gobs and gobs of scripture concerning the details of the above all along the way to the end. Not to mention perfectly setting yourself up for the final deception. You will no doubt be part of the false and apostate "Christianity" which will be an intricate part of the final persecuting beast of biblical prophecy. As false and apostate "Christianity" was a major factor in one of the previous persecuting beasts as well.

Tell us if you do not mind, how far along are we in this progressive kingdom of God in this world? Just exactly who is part of this progressive kingdom at present? If it will entail the whole world before Christ returns, there must already be many churches, religions, and or organizations that are a growing part of it. Who are they? By their fruits we should be able to identify them, should we not? Please do. Thank you.

: 3 Resurrections  Tue May 02, 2023 - 19:58:59
4 BC more than likely.  Source is Ussher's "Annals of the World".  He is not always on target with his dates, but in this case, I believe he is correct.  And I'm sure you have a certain reason for bringing this up.

rofl, Yes I do have a reason for bringing it up. I believe an important one. Just bear with me a bit longer.

Just another question or two before I get to the crux of things....

I had agreed with the 4BC dating of Herods death until further investigating truly has me nearly convinced that 1BC was more likely.

From :https://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2020/12/timeline-star-of-bethlehem-herods-death-jesus-birth.html

It is suggested...

a) Historians have primarily replied on the Jewish historian Josephus (37 – c. 100) to calculate this "death date "of 4 BC: particularly a chronology developed by Protestant theologian and historian Emil Schürer in his 1891 book, A History of the Jewish People in the Time of Jesus Christ.

     i) Josephus stated (Antiquities 17.6.4) that a lunar eclipse was observed right before Herod's death. This is usually ascribed
     to an eclipse dated March 13, 4 BC. But it's been observed that this was very late, and a minor partial eclipse. There was
     another much more visible lunar eclipse on 29 December, 1 BC (just three days before "AD" begins).

     ii) Josephus (Antiquities 17.9.3, The Jewish War 2.1.3) also noted that Herod died between a "fast" (probably Yom Kippur)
     and the Jewish Passover. These are our two big historical clues. The eclipse 29 December, 1 BC is a plausible (though not
     proven) candidate, all things considered.

     iii) But  there are also ongoing scholarly disputes about the manuscripts of Josephus. Twenty-seven texts of Antiquities from
     before 1544 indicate that Herod died later than usually supposed: in 1 BC or maybe 1 AD.

     iv) This would "move" the date of Jesus' birth to 3 or 2 BC: which is the most common date stated by many early Church
     fathers, such as Irenaeus of Lyons, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Hippolytus of Rome, Eusebius of Caesarea, and
     Origen. (this is important which will be explained quite soon)

b) Another argument that can be made is the date of coins issued by Herod the Great's successors. The evidence shows that none can be dated before 1 AD. These coins were controlled by Rome and only after Herod the Great's death could such coins be issued.

Now I will stop, for the moment with the references and ask you if you believe Jesus was born in 5 or 6 BC or 2or 3 BC as this
suggests?

There is an important reason that this matters.

2nd question for this morning is what you, personally... (what is commonly accepted)... believe that Jesus was tried at 6AM on Friday. Crucified at noon on Friday and Died 3PM on Friday. and before 2 full days could be counted was found that his tomb.... early in the morning... on Sunday was empty. (That not only is not 3 days , it does not track with what Jesus himself said that "for just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.)

Just a small PS.

If you are dogmatic about the 4BC... that also works. Provided you also believe that Jesus could have been 33 1/2 years old at crucifixion tie... coupled with the couple of commentaries I have read that suggest Jesus was born just before Herod's death in 4BC. Suggesting that 4BC would have been the date of His birth. 

from: https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/people-cultures-in-the-bible/jesus-historical-jesus/herods-death-jesus-birth-and-a-lunar-eclipse/
Both Luke and Matthew mention Jesus' birth as occurring during Herod's reign (Luke 1:5; Matthew 2:1). Josephus relates Herod's death to a lunar eclipse. This is generally regarded as a reference to a lunar eclipse in 4 B.C. Therefore it is often said that Jesus was born in 4 B.C.

: Amo  Wed May 03, 2023 - 06:28:20
The pot calling the kettle black. You are totally ignoring gobs and gobs of scripture concerning the details of the above all along the way to the end. Not to mention perfectly setting yourself up for the final deception. You will no doubt be part of the false and apostate "Christianity" which will be an intricate part of the final persecuting beast of biblical prophecy. As false and apostate "Christianity" was a major factor in one of the previous persecuting beasts as well.

Tell us if you do not mind, how far along are we in this progressive kingdom of God in this world? Just exactly who is part of this progressive kingdom at present? If it will entail the whole world before Christ returns, there must already be many churches, religions, and or organizations that are a growing part of it. Who are they? By their fruits we should be able to identify them, should we not? Please do. Thank you.

Amo, I am certainly not ignoring those "gobs and gobs of scripture".  I just pay careful attention to the time-relevant terms which John applied to the fulfillment of all those prophesies, which you are not doing.  Those time-relevant terms which were applied to all of those unsealed, revealed visions meant that they would be fulfilled in John's generation, by the close of the first-century "time of the end" which concluded in AD 70.  That was the end of Daniel's people, when the power of the holy people was crushed, as Daniel 12:7 predicted.  Only the sealed-up prophesies which the seven thunders uttered in Revelation 10:4 were reserved for later generations after the close of AD 70, some of which apply to us and our future. 

There will be no "final persecuting beast of biblical prophecy" (which you are expecting for our future), because, long ago, the power behind all those beast kingdoms has already been simultaneously crushed to dust blowing on the wind (as Daniel 2:35 predicted).  The power behind these destroyed beast kingdoms has been replaced by the growth of Christ's stone kingdom, which is incrementally increasing in this world at present.  You, Amo, are part of that stone kingdom, as am I, since we are called those "living stones" built upon the "chief cornerstone" which is Christ. 

This kingdom of Christ which was promised to "fill the whole earth" in Daniel 2:35 does not necessarily mean that the entire world's civic organizations and governments will become identified as Christian.  God gives His salvation to individuals, not corporations.   Not all humanity is promised to become a child of God.  Some are bastards, and not sons.  Some are goats and not sheep.  There will always be some "tares" in comparison to the majority of the "wheat" harvest.   For Christ's kingdom to "fill the earth" means that the knowledge or awareness of Christ's gospel will permeate the globe - not that all governments or people will universally become Christian. 

It will take Christ's final return in the fall of 3033 to purge human evil out of this planet entirely.  God has already purged Satanic and demonic evil out of this world back in AD 70, and in the final return of Christ, the presence of humanity's evil will also come to an end by being utterly destroyed.

: Rella  Wed May 03, 2023 - 06:40:21
rofl, Yes I do have a reason for bringing it up. I believe an important one. Just bear with me a bit longer.

Just another question or two before I get to the crux of things....

I had agreed with the 4BC dating of Herods death until further investigating truly has me nearly convinced that 1BC was more likely.

From :https://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2020/12/timeline-star-of-bethlehem-herods-death-jesus-birth.html

It is suggested...

a) Historians have primarily replied on the Jewish historian Josephus (37 – c. 100) to calculate this "death date "of 4 BC: particularly a chronology developed by Protestant theologian and historian Emil Schürer in his 1891 book, A History of the Jewish People in the Time of Jesus Christ.

     i) Josephus stated (Antiquities 17.6.4) that a lunar eclipse was observed right before Herod's death. This is usually ascribed
     to an eclipse dated March 13, 4 BC. But it's been observed that this was very late, and a minor partial eclipse. There was
     another much more visible lunar eclipse on 29 December, 1 BC (just three days before "AD" begins).

     ii) Josephus (Antiquities 17.9.3, The Jewish War 2.1.3) also noted that Herod died between a "fast" (probably Yom Kippur)
     and the Jewish Passover. These are our two big historical clues. The eclipse 29 December, 1 BC is a plausible (though not
     proven) candidate, all things considered.

     iii) But  there are also ongoing scholarly disputes about the manuscripts of Josephus. Twenty-seven texts of Antiquities from
     before 1544 indicate that Herod died later than usually supposed: in 1 BC or maybe 1 AD.

     iv) This would "move" the date of Jesus' birth to 3 or 2 BC: which is the most common date stated by many early Church
     fathers, such as Irenaeus of Lyons, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Hippolytus of Rome, Eusebius of Caesarea, and
     Origen. (this is important which will be explained quite soon)

b) Another argument that can be made is the date of coins issued by Herod the Great's successors. The evidence shows that none can be dated before 1 AD. These coins were controlled by Rome and only after Herod the Great's death could such coins be issued.

Now I will stop, for the moment with the references and ask you if you believe Jesus was born in 5 or 6 BC or 2or 3 BC as this
suggests?

There is an important reason that this matters.

2nd question for this morning is what you, personally... (what is commonly accepted)... believe that Jesus was tried at 6AM on Friday. Crucified at noon on Friday and Died 3PM on Friday. and before 2 full days could be counted was found that his tomb.... early in the morning... on Sunday was empty. (That not only is not 3 days , it does not track with what Jesus himself said that "for just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.)

Just a small PS.

If you are dogmatic about the 4BC... that also works. Provided you also believe that Jesus could have been 33 1/2 years old at crucifixion tie... coupled with the couple of commentaries I have read that suggest Jesus was born just before Herod's death in 4BC. Suggesting that 4BC would have been the date of His birth. 

from: https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/people-cultures-in-the-bible/jesus-historical-jesus/herods-death-jesus-birth-and-a-lunar-eclipse/
Both Luke and Matthew mention Jesus' birth as occurring during Herod's reign (Luke 1:5; Matthew 2:1). Josephus relates Herod's death to a lunar eclipse. This is generally regarded as a reference to a lunar eclipse in 4 B.C. Therefore it is often said that Jesus was born in 4 B.C.

To me, pinpointing the date of Jesus' birth is not a critical one.  Ecclesiastes 7 tells us that the day of a man's death is better than the day of one's birth, and that the end of a matter is better than its beginning.  That would indicate that pinpointing Christ's crucifixion date when He said "It is finished" (and His subsequent resurrection) would actually be a more vital matter to identify a dated year.

That would mean it is more critical to get the correct date of Christ Jesus' coming unto His own people, manifested as "Messiah the Prince" from the Daniel 9:25 prophecy.  This "coming" unto His own people was supposed to be 483 years after the (454 BC) decree to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem, complete with walls and the street in front of the temple.   The year of this "coming" of Jesus being publicly manifested to the people of Israel at the beginning of His miraculous public ministry was the year AD 30.  Three and a half years later, in the middle of the 70th "week" of years, Jesus was "cut off" out of the land of the living, and then bodily resurrected 3 days and 3 nights later.  Yes, He was bodily resurrected on what we would call Saturday just at sunset, fulfilling the prediction that Christ's body lying in the grave would match Jonah's experience, who was 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the fish. 

Luke tells us that Christ "began to be about 30 years old" at His baptism.  This baptism of Christ took place around AD 26/27.  About three years later in AD 30, Jesus' public miraculous ministry began, fulfilling the beginning year of the 70th "week" of years.

We can absolutely confirm that AD 30 was the beginning year of Christ's ministry (Daniel's beginning of the 70th "week" of years) by looking at John 2:20.  At this first Passover of Christ's public ministry, the Jews said to Jesus, "Forty six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?"  If we count backward in time 46 years when Herod began the lavish renovations of the temple in 17 BC, this means AD 30 was the first year of Christ's public ministry (the beginning of Daniel's 70th "week" of years).  This is absolutely essential to pin down, because Christ had to fulfill exactly the timing of Daniel's prophecy about the prophesied year for the coming of "Messiah the Prince", or He would have proved to be a false Messiah, and we need not believe a single thing He said. 

: 3 Resurrections  Wed May 03, 2023 - 11:15:30
To me, pinpointing the date of Jesus' birth is not a critical one.

Yes, it is IF it alters one whit of your timeline for 2033, which I believe it does.

I am just going to jump to it and not let it hang til the end of this.

Nisan14 ... the date Jesus was crucified... ( see below) ... in 33 AD was on a Friday.

That is impossible. If you trust what Jesus himself had said.

He had to be most likely crucified in 30 AD on a Wednesday.

And that is why the date of his birth is important... if you  believe that age 33 was a fairly accurate age. And that Herod Died in 1 or 2 BC....

Even if he died in 4BC that date can be made to work also.

Repeating: things on Herod's death.

a) Historians have primarily replied on the Jewish historian Josephus (37 – c. 100) to calculate this "death date "of 4 BC: particularly a chronology developed by Protestant theologian and historian Emil Schürer in his 1891 book, A History of the Jewish People in the Time of Jesus Christ.

     i) Josephus stated (Antiquities 17.6.4) that a lunar eclipse was observed right before Herod's death. This is usually ascribed
     to an eclipse dated March 13, 4 BC. But it's been observed that this was very late, and a minor partial eclipse. There was
     another much more visible lunar eclipse on 29 December, 1 BC (just three days before "AD" begins).

     ii) Josephus (Antiquities 17.9.3, The Jewish War 2.1.3) also noted that Herod died between a "fast" (probably Yom Kippur)
     and the Jewish Passover. These are our two big historical clues. The eclipse 29 December, 1 BC is a plausible (though not
     proven) candidate, all things considered.

     iii) But  there are also ongoing scholarly disputes about the manuscripts of Josephus. Twenty-seven texts of Antiquities from
     before 1544 indicate that Herod died later than usually supposed: in 1 BC or maybe 1 AD.

     iv) This would "move" the date of Jesus' birth to 3 or 2 BC: which is the most common date stated by many early Church
     fathers, such as Irenaeus of Lyons, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Hippolytus of Rome, Eusebius of Caesarea, and
     Origen. (this is important which will be explained quite soon)

b) Another argument that can be made is the date of coins issued by Herod the Great's successors. The evidence shows that none can be dated before 1 AD. These coins were controlled by Rome and only after Herod the Great's death could such coins be issued.

Now why is this important....???

Please try to follow this.

Nisan 14: after 6PM, Jesus was with his 12 in the upper room having what we commonly call "His Last Supper.

At midnight Jesus was arrested and 12 hours later he was crucified.  Shy of 18 hours after his arrest he was buried. and it
was still Nisan 14.

Everyone make a big thing about his crucifixion and the Sabbath.

Well... there is no more important Sabbath then Passover and the week Jesus was crucified there were 2 Sabbaths .

I am not going into any in-depth talks of prep days, and the do's and don'ts surrounding those important days... just
suffice it to say that it was all done appropriately.

NOW you must be wondering about why the importance of this!!!

IT IS IMPORTANT BECAAUSE JESUS WAS ARRESTED, TRIED, CRUCIFIED AND BURIED ON NISAN 14 AND THE DAY OF THIS WAS  WEDNESDAY30 CE (Or AD, as I prefer) That is the only day gets us 3 full days and nights before the discovery of the empty tomb as Jesus, Himself, specified.

Please just keep this in mind as I go back to Jesus and his inability to lie. And to his Matt 12:40 statement for just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. I dont care 9f you call it a metaphor, parable, or pipedream... the fact is that Jesus wanted this to be known as a point of importance.

You know the number 3 is an important number in God's plans.

To keep this from becoming so long you wont read it lets condense what this means so far...

Jesus was dead and in the grave at the beginning of the 15th day (Thursday) of Nissan. Using the timeline Jesus provided of three full days and nights, Thursday night was the first complete day, Friday night was the second complete day and Saturday night was the third complete day. If we correctly interpret the timeline provided by the four gospels, it is not possible for Jesus to have been crucified on Friday as commonly thought, but He was crucified and buried on Wednesday.

I can readily provide a number of links and tables of dates to support this but for times sake will not do so now.

WHY IS THIS IMPORTANT. ??? ??? ???

Because you have consistently said  2033.

And it needs to be adjusted to 2030.

No... I am not saying I am a believer in this of yours, but if, by chance you could be right you need the right year.

That year is 2030.


BTW... I do have one chart among others that copied fairly well so I posted it here.


Proleptic Gregorian date

Day of the week

Nisan 14, 3780 A.M.   March 25, 20 A.D.   Wednesday
Nisan 14, 3781 A.M.   April 12, 21 A.D.   Monday
Nisan 14, 3782 A.M.   April 2, 22 A.D.      Saturday
Nisan 14, 3783 A.M.   March 22, 23 A.D.   Wednesday
Nisan 14, 3784 A.M.   April 10, 24 A.D.   Wednesday
Nisan 14, 3785 A.M.   March 31, 25 A.D.   Monday
Nisan 14, 3786 A.M.   March 20, 26 A.D.   Friday
Nisan 14, 3787 A.M.   April 7, 27 A.D.           Wednesday
Nisan 14, 3788 A.M.   March 27, 28 A.D.   Monday
Nisan 14, 3789 A.M.   April 14, 29 A.D.   Saturday
Nisan 14, 3790 A.M.   April 3, 30 A.D.   Wednesday
Nisan 14, 3791 A.M.   March 24, 31 A.D.   Monday
Nisan 14, 3792 A.M.   April 12, 32 A.D.   Monday
Nisan 14, 3793 A.M.   April 1, 33 A.D.           Friday
Nisan 14, 3794 A.M.   March 20, 34 A.D.   Monday
Nisan 14, 3795 A.M.   April 9, 35 A.D.           Monday
Nisan 14, 3796 A.M.   March 28, 36 A.D.   Friday
Nisan 14, 3797 A.M.   March 18, 37 A.D.   Wednesday
Nisan 14, 3798 A.M.   April  5, 38 A.D.           Monday
Nisan 14, 3799 A.M.   March 25, 39 A.D.   Friday
Nisan 14, 3800 A.M.   April 13, 40 A.D.   Friday

: Rella  Wed May 03, 2023 - 18:01:56
Nisan14 ... the date Jesus was crucified... ( see below) ... in 33 AD was on a Friday.

The church-father Eusebius said that Jesus died in about 45 AD.  That's usually dismissed as a weird error from someone who was usually very meticulous with his information, but what if he was right?

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Thu May 04, 2023 - 00:45:56
The church-father Eusebius said that Jesus died in about 45 AD.  That's usually dismissed as a weird error from someone who was usually very meticulous with his information, but what if he was right?

Well, I have been looking for what he said but have not found it yet.

I also cannot find a chart or reference to when Passover was in 45 AD to know the day of the week it fell on.

I doubt 45AD myself because it would know the accepted age of Jesus at 33 out of consideration....

But now.... I am on another search.... rofl

I did just find this timeline AD 30 to AD 70

https://www.agapebiblestudy.com/charts/TIME%20LINE%2030-70%20AD.htm

: Rella  Thu May 04, 2023 - 07:31:17
Well, I have been looking for what he said but have not found it yet.

I also cannot find a chart or reference to when Passover was in 45 AD to know the day of the week it fell on.

I doubt 45AD myself because it would know the accepted age of Jesus at 33 out of consideration....

But now.... I am on another search.... rofl

I did just find this timeline AD 30 to AD 70

https://www.agapebiblestudy.com/charts/TIME%20LINE%2030-70%20AD.htm

Rella, Jesus's age at time of death or His date of birth is actually immaterial to any kind of prophetic fulfillment.  The critical information that needs to align with prophecy is the actual year of Jesus' crucifixion, as well as the year His earthly public ministry began.  The years for these events were precisely predicted by Daniel 9.  If Christ did not fulfill those two events in the very year they were prophesied to take place, then He was not Daniel's true "Messiah the Prince" that should come. 

So it is not necessary to go to great lengths to prove what year Christ was born, when Herod died, etc.  Those are what we could consider "fun facts", but there is no prophecy linked to the actual year for those events that would be absolutely necessary to pin down to a specific year.

The chart you just submitted dating Christ's crucifixion at AD 30 does not align with 3 scriptural events which relate to that event, as follows: 

#1)  The beginning of Daniel's 70th "week" of years, when "Messiah the Prince" would come and be manifested to His people.  John 2:20 gives us the information that this very first Passover which Jesus was attending at the beginning of His public ministry was 46 YEARS after Herod had begun His expensive renovation of the temple back in 17 BC.  That tells us this first year of Christ's public ministry was in AD 30.  This AD 30 year is exactly 483 years (the end of Daniel's 69 "weeks" of years) after the specific decree which Daniel mentioned regarding the restoration and building of Jerusalem, including its walls and the street in front of the temple.  This particular decree was given in the 20th year of Artaxerxes's reign (454 BC), which reign began with a co-regency Artaxerxes shared with his father starting in 474 BC. 

The fulfillment of the beginning of this 70th "week" was announced by Christ in Mark 1:14-15, "Now after that John was put in prison,"(in AD 30) "Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and Saying, The time is fulfilled," (the beginning of Daniel's 70th week)  "and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel."

#2)  Daniel prophesied that Messiah the coming Prince would confirm the covenant with many of Daniel's people for that last "one week" of years.  During that 70th "week", the Messiah would be "cut off" (out of the land of the living).  Also, in the middle of that 70th "week", He would cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (by His crucifixion, once for all providing the last sacrifice that was needed to secure our salvation).    So, if Christ's public ministry began back in AD 30, then 3-1/2 years later He would have to be "cut off" by His crucifixion in AD 33. 

#3)  The Revelation 20 millennium of a literal thousand years was supposed to be "finished", "fulfilled", and "expired" at the time the "First resurrection" occurred.  That "First resurrection" event was "Christ the First-fruits" and the Matthew 27:52-53 saints rising from the grave that day - in AD 33.  A literal thousand years prior in 968/967 BC, Solomon's temple foundation stone was laid down.  The placement of this foundation stone began a literal thousand years of a God-sanctioned, physical temple which foreshadowed the coming spiritual temple and its "chief cornerstone" which Christ became once He was resurrected.  We can confirm this date of 968/967 BC by referring to the Tyrian list of kings and their regnal dates (King Hiram in particular who helped Solomon begin temple construction).

Rella, you have pointed out that the Passover charts list only AD 30 as having a Wednesday evening burial of Christ, fulfilling the 3 days and 3 nights when Christ would be in the grave until Saturday evening.  Yes, I agree that the 3 days and 3 nights were required to fulfill Christ's prediction.  The only thing I can say is that the charts which list this information are in direct opposition to the scriptures and the prophecies that I listed above that point to AD 33 as Christ's crucifixion year.  The questions would then be, "Are there errors in the tables of Passover dates for those years?"  Or "Are the dates indicated by the prophecies in error?" 

: 3 Resurrections  Thu May 04, 2023 - 09:38:03
Rella, Jesus's age at time of death or His date of birth is actually immaterial to any kind of prophetic fulfillment.  The critical information that needs to align with prophecy is the actual year of Jesus' crucifixion, as well as the year His earthly public ministry began.  The years for these events were precisely predicted by Daniel 9.  If Christ did not fulfill those two events in the very year they were prophesied to take place, then He was not Daniel's true "Messiah the Prince" that should come. 

So it is not necessary to go to great lengths to prove what year Christ was born, when Herod died, etc.  Those are what we could consider "fun facts", but there is no prophecy linked to the actual year for those events that would be absolutely necessary to pin down to a specific year.

The chart you just submitted dating Christ's crucifixion at AD 30 does not align with 3 scriptural events which relate to that event, as follows: 

#1)  The beginning of Daniel's 70th "week" of years, when "Messiah the Prince" would come and be manifested to His people.  John 2:20 gives us the information that this very first Passover which Jesus was attending at the beginning of His public ministry was 46 YEARS after Herod had begun His expensive renovation of the temple back in 17 BC.  That tells us this first year of Christ's public ministry was in AD 30.  This AD 30 year is exactly 483 years (the end of Daniel's 69 "weeks" of years) after the specific decree which Daniel mentioned regarding the restoration and building of Jerusalem, including its walls and the street in front of the temple.  This particular decree was given in the 20th year of Artaxerxes's reign (454 BC), which reign began with a co-regency Artaxerxes shared with his father starting in 474 BC. 

The fulfillment of the beginning of this 70th "week" was announced by Christ in Mark 1:14-15, "Now after that John was put in prison,"(in AD 30) "Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and Saying, The time is fulfilled," (the beginning of Daniel's 70th week)  "and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel."

#2)  Daniel prophesied that Messiah the coming Prince would confirm the covenant with many of Daniel's people for that last "one week" of years.  During that 70th "week", the Messiah would be "cut off" (out of the land of the living).  Also, in the middle of that 70th "week", He would cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (by His crucifixion, once for all providing the last sacrifice that was needed to secure our salvation).    So, if Christ's public ministry began back in AD 30, then 3-1/2 years later He would have to be "cut off" by His crucifixion in AD 33. 

#3)  The Revelation 20 millennium of a literal thousand years was supposed to be "finished", "fulfilled", and "expired" at the time the "First resurrection" occurred.  That "First resurrection" event was "Christ the First-fruits" and the Matthew 27:52-53 saints rising from the grave that day - in AD 33.  A literal thousand years prior in 968/967 BC, Solomon's temple foundation stone was laid down.  The placement of this foundation stone began a literal thousand years of a God-sanctioned, physical temple which foreshadowed the coming spiritual temple and its "chief cornerstone" which Christ became once He was resurrected.  We can confirm this date of 968/967 BC by referring to the Tyrian list of kings and their regnal dates (King Hiram in particular who helped Solomon begin temple construction).

Rella, you have pointed out that the Passover charts list only AD 30 as having a Wednesday evening burial of Christ, fulfilling the 3 days and 3 nights when Christ would be in the grave until Saturday evening.  Yes, I agree that the 3 days and 3 nights were required to fulfill Christ's prediction.  The only thing I can say is that the charts which list this information are in direct opposition to the scriptures and the prophecies that I listed above that point to AD 33 as Christ's crucifixion year.  The questions would then be, "Are there errors in the tables of Passover dates for those years?"  Or "Are the dates indicated by the prophecies in error?"

3Rs,

First of all... you say... "Rella, you have pointed out that the Passover charts list only AD 30 as having a Wednesday evening burial of Christ, fulfilling the 3 days and 3 nights when Christ would be in the grave until Saturday evening. "

There is no where in anything that you have ever read that shows there was a single ounce of evidence that Christ stayed in the grave one second after the stone was rolled to close him in.

Last of all...you say..."Are there errors in the tables of Passover dates for those years?"  Or "Are the dates indicated by the prophecies in error? And I have to say more likely prophesies... or more precisely the interpretation of such.

I do not see Jesus starting his ministry in 30AD... I say he started it at age 30.

This important timeline of Jesus ministry date is 42 days before the calculated 30th birthday of Jesus. Jesus baptism date and year is 480 years from the completion of the Jerusalem Wall in 455 BC according to Nehemiah 6:15. And...Jesus was crucified on Passover three and a half years later in 30 AD.

Now, I do have an interesting article about this that only will muddy the water more in comprehension.... so will require more then one reading.... I highly recommend reading and studying this. It is far too long to post here but. The following is a quote from it.

From the Jerusalem Post... ( I subscribe) ... https://www.jpost.com/Blogs/Truth-Beyond-Price/Holy-Hebrew-Arithmetic-What-Age-was-Jesus-when-he-became-Teacher-Priest-542343

The gist of this article starts with

The Bible says that a priest had to be 30 years old before he took up the mature, senior office of priest, Num 4:3. "From thirty years old and above, even to fifty years old..." (Some other junior posts could start when men reached twenty.)
"Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age," says Luke in 3:21.
But if Jesus was born in the autumn of 3 BCE and died at Passover 30 CE after 3 1/2 years mission, how could he be 30 when he started the mission? That would mean he started his mission in the autumn of 26 CE. Are there 30 years between 3BCE and 26CE?

And then it ends with...

So how does this apply to Christ?
According to the calculation made by Dr Ernest L Martin in his book, The Star that astonished the World, Jesus was born at the beginning of the first of Tishri at the start of the Feast of Trumpets, 3 BCE.
So we can calculate:
3 BCE to 2BCE is one year.
3 BCE to 1 BCE is two years.
Then we have to remember that there was no year zero. The next year is 1 CE.
3 BCE to 1 CE is 3 years.
3 BCE to 6 CE is 8 years.
3 BCE to 26 CE is 28 years!
So how could Jesus be reckoned to be 30?
Firstly, we should note that Jesus was born at the beginning of Trumpets -- at night. Hebrew days begin at sunset and end at sunset. There were shepherds in the field at night who announced that he had been born in their crib in their tents. (Jesus, James Joseph chapter 15)
So what part of the whole day of the Feast of Trumpets was the critical time that marked the king's reign and distinguished it from the previous king?
The clue is in the name -- Feast of Trumpets. It was the time when the trumpets sounded. If this was midday, then if the king B died before the trumpet he was without the regnal year.  If he took office only just before and died a few seconds after the trumpet he had reigned a whole year!
So we must count the time before the trumpets of 3 BCE as the first year of Jesus's life. The second year started with the Trumpet and continued to the next first of Tishri in 2 BCE.
So the calculation should read as following:
Birth to the time of Trumpets 3 BCE year one
3 BCE to 2 BCE 2 years.
3 BCE to 1 BCE is three years.
3 BCE to 26 CE is 29 years.
But aren't we still a year short of 30?
That's when we need to look at the gospel of Luke again. Luke 3:23 says:
"And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being according to Torah law (Greek does not mean 'supposed' as Jerome mistranslated it into Latin for doctrinal purposes. The word 'enomizeto' means regulated and according to nomos, Hebrew or Torah Law, literally legalized)  son of Joseph, ... "
Jesus was beginning his thirtieth year. Come the1st of Tishri, this would all be recognized as his year.  Under Hebrew law he was entitled to count this year. As Jesus was alive on this next feast of Trumpets, we can say with Luke Jesus was beginning to be thirty years and fully qualified to be priest.

AND

This is presents things that are NOT covered in the four corners of the bible... such as

But if Jesus was born in the autumn of 3 BCE and died at Passover 30 CE after 3 1/2 years mission, how could he be 30 when he started the mission? That would mean he started his mission in the autumn of 26 CE. Are there 30 years between 3BCE and 26CE?

So I maintain that Jesus was crucified in 30AD.... on a Wednesday....

But as you maintain it was 33AD ... on a Friday... and you agree that ..."Yes, I agree that the 3 days and 3 nights were required to fulfill Christ's prediction." HOW DO YOU MAKE  THAT WORK WITH FRIDAY AS THE CONSIDERATION?

Even if you were to count the full 3 1/2 years after the year 30AD when you see Jesus starting his ministry.. that arguably could take things to 34AD Nisan 14, 3794 A.M.   March 20, 34 A.D.   Monday That is worse for you cannot get 3 days and nights going to Sunday from then either.

He was crucified in 30 AD. It fits, it works. I wish I had time right now... and maybe I will find some to take your prophesy info and see what else I can find about it regarding the counting of time.[/size]

Rella, I maintain that Christ was crucified and buried on Wednesday in AD 33, with His body lying 3 days and 3 nights in the grave, to rise from the dead on Saturday at evening.  Does this contradict the charts? Yes, and I don't care.  If it comes to a choice between either a man-made chart or having those scripture prophecies fulfilled at certain required years on the calendar, I will pick the scriptural prophetic time markers every time. 

I've no problem with Christ needing to be at least a required 30 years old at the time He began His ministry, in order to be called "Rabbi", or to be qualified to become a priest.  But Luke does NOT say that Christ began to be about 30 at the beginning of His ministry.  He says that this was Christ's age at His BAPTISM, which was in AD 26/27 depending on your source. 

Christ did not immediately begin His miraculous public ministry that year at His baptism.  He spent another approximate 3 years until AD 30 before He began choosing His disciples and performed His first miracle at Cana, causing His disciples to believe on Him (John 1:35-2:11).  We know this because immediately after His baptism in AD 26/27, Christ was driven by the Spirit into the wilderness for 40 days.  Once that period of testing was over, Satan "left Him for a SEASON" (kairos - which indicates a specific appointed period of time).  I maintain the length of that "season" was the approximate 3 years before Christ began His public miraculous ministry in AD 30; the same year of AD 30 when John was thrown into prison, and when Christ announced that "The time is fulfilled..." - in AD 30. 

This would have made Jesus 33 plus years old at the beginning of His ministry in AD 30 - which was 46 years after Herod's temple renovations had begun back in 17 BC.   Christ's age at death would have been somewhere around 36-1/2 in the year AD 33, a year which coincides with Daniel's prophecy of the middle of the 70th week of years (which began all the way back in 454 BC).  AD 33 was also the year which matched the end of the literal thousand-year millennium (which began all the way back in 968/ 967 BC).  It also fits perfectly with the ending year AD 37 of Daniel's 70th week, when Paul received his temple vision in Jerusalem, and was told to leave Jerusalem and switch his evangelistic priorities over to the Gentiles.  Paul's commission by God in AD 37 to go to the Gentiles ended Daniel's last 70th week when the covenant had been confirmed with Daniel's people. 

: Rella  Thu May 04, 2023 - 07:31:17
Well, I have been looking for what he said but have not found it yet.

I also cannot find a chart or reference to when Passover was in 45 AD to know the day of the week it fell on.

I doubt 45AD myself because it would know the accepted age of Jesus at 33 out of consideration....

But now.... I am on another search.... rofl

I did just find this timeline AD 30 to AD 70

https://www.agapebiblestudy.com/charts/TIME%20LINE%2030-70%20AD.htm

I made a mistake.  It wasn't Eusebius.  It was Ireneus.

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Fri May 05, 2023 - 00:30:30
I made a mistake.  It wasn't Eusebius.  It was Ireneus.

Thanks for the correction....

NOE... Does anyone here have a good "reliable"  reference as to what day  Nisan 14/15  fell in 30AD and 33AD?

: 3 Resurrections  Thu May 04, 2023 - 22:14:29
Rella, I maintain that Christ was crucified and buried on Wednesday in AD 33, with His body lying 3 days and 3 nights in the grave, to rise from the dead on Saturday at evening.  Does this contradict the charts? Yes, and I don't care.  If it comes to a choice between either a man-made chart or having those scripture prophecies fulfilled at certain required years on the calendar, I will pick the scriptural prophetic time markers every time. 

I've no problem with Christ needing to be at least a required 30 years old at the time He began His ministry, in order to be called "Rabbi", or to be qualified to become a priest.  But Luke does NOT say that Christ began to be about 30 at the beginning of His ministry.  He says that this was Christ's age at His BAPTISM, which was in AD 26/27 depending on your source. 

Christ did not immediately begin His miraculous public ministry that year at His baptism.  He spent another approximate 3 years until AD 30 before He began choosing His disciples and performed His first miracle at Cana, causing His disciples to believe on Him (John 1:35-2:11).  We know this because immediately after His baptism in AD 26/27, Christ was driven by the Spirit into the wilderness for 40 days.  Once that period of testing was over, Satan "left Him for a SEASON" (kairos - which indicates a specific appointed period of time).  I maintain the length of that "season" was the approximate 3 years before Christ began His public miraculous ministry in AD 30; the same year of AD 30 when John was thrown into prison, and when Christ announced that "The time is fulfilled..." - in AD 30. 

This would have made Jesus 33 plus years old at the beginning of His ministry in AD 30 - which was 46 years after Herod's temple renovations had begun back in 17 BC.   Christ's age at death would have been somewhere around 36-1/2 in the year AD 33, a year which coincides with Daniel's prophecy of the middle of the 70th week of years (which began all the way back in 454 BC).  AD 33 was also the year which matched the end of the literal thousand-year millennium (which began all the way back in 968/ 967 BC).  It also fits perfectly with the ending year AD 37 of Daniel's 70th week, when Paul received his temple vision in Jerusalem, and was told to leave Jerusalem and switch his evangelistic priorities over to the Gentiles.  Paul's commission by God in AD 37 to go to the Gentiles ended Daniel's last 70th week when the covenant had been confirmed with Daniel's people.

OK 3R,

We again need to agree to disagree.

I maintain AS 30 and you AD 33.

For the moment I shall not argue but my looking into which will continue until there is viable proof which one of those was a Wednesday.

As to hanging my hat on Daniel....  ::frown::

Later... I now am off to re-study Daniel.....

But Rella, this is not hanging everything on Daniel alone.  All the related scripture from Daniel 9, Revelation 20, Mark 1:15, Luke 4:18-21 and John 2:20 must all coincide and produce the same dated year for the crucifixion.  And there's no need to find your "viable proof" in a man-made chart that confirms Wednesday as the crucifixion day - comparing the gospel accounts themselves does that for us.  It HAD to be Wednesday, and no other day of the week.   And it HAD to be 3 days and 3 nights, for a total of 72 hours, and nothing else.    Begging your pardon...but damn the charts if they don't agree with the scriptures' combined testimony.

And I'm off to help haul and unload a truckbed of mulch for a lady up the street and to tear down a decrepit utility building...

: 3 Resurrections  Fri May 05, 2023 - 07:38:57
But Rella, this is not hanging everything on Daniel alone.  All the related scripture from Daniel 9, Revelation 20, Mark 1:15, Luke 4:18-21 and John 2:20 must all coincide and produce the same dated year for the crucifixion.  And there's no need to find your "viable proof" in a man-made chart that confirms Wednesday as the crucifixion day - comparing the gospel accounts themselves does that for us.  It HAD to be Wednesday, and no other day of the week.   And it HAD to be 3 days and 3 nights, for a total of 72 hours, and nothing else.    Begging your pardon...but damn the charts if they don't agree with the scriptures' combined testimony.

And I'm off to help haul and unload a truckbed of mulch for a lady up the street and to tear down a decrepit utility building...

Good Morning 3R,

You are a good neighbor. And as your reward the latter part of my reply to you gives your some fun facts .

I know not Daniel alone, but I have not read Daniel much for at least 10 years. I want to refresh my own memory on Daniel 9 and some other areas.

With the way the last reply to you about the dating of how Jesus got to 30 years and so forth it got me thinking that it is possible that as the books of the bible were written with a different mindset when days and times and years were given.

There is a difference between the Gregorian Calendar and the Jewish Calendar.  And there have been countless ways to try and figure out a system by which we can relate the ages of things.

First... we cannot even be sure of the years that Daniel was spcifically written. ( I have included a few that are at odds with each other for you to scan)

Daniel was written allegedly between 540 and 550 BC. But there is a great discretion over that.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/The-Book-of-Daniel-Old-Testament

Because its religious ideas do not belong to the 6th century BC, numerous scholars date Daniel in the first half of the 2nd century BC and relate the visions to the persecution of the Jews under Antiochus IV Epiphanes (175–164/163 BC).

https://christian-apologist.com/2019/09/06/when-was-the-book-of-daniel-written (THIS IS A GOOD READ)

The book of Daniel begins in 604 B.C., which is eighteen years prior to the destruction of the first Temple in 586 B.C. Daniel and several other young men (1:4) were deported from Judah to Babylon under King Nebuchadnezzar. The book ends two years after the seventy years of exile in 532 B.C.

https://christian-apologist.com/2021/10/23/josephus-debunked-critical-scholars-late-dating-claims-of-daniel-and-isaiah/

In Against Apion 1:8, Josephus stated that the canon of the Jewish Scriptures was closed at the reign of Artaxerxes, between 465 and 425 B.C., which refutes claims of 165 B.C. dating of Daniel.

https://www.bibleblender.com/2018/bible-stories/old-testament/daniel/an-introduction-to-daniel-detailed-outline-and-introduction-to-the-book-of-daniel

The difference in Greek and Hebrew translations of Daniel
In some bibles, the Greek text of Daniel is considerably longer than the Hebrew variant due to three different stories included in the Greek text that are missing from the Hebrew version. These stories were accepted by all branches of Christianity until the Protestant movement rejected them in the 16th century. The three stories included in the Greek text are:

1. The Prayer of Azariah and Song of the Three Holy Children, placed after Daniel 3:23;
2. The story of Susanna and the Elders, placed before chapter 1 in some Greek versions and after chapter 12 in others;
3. The story of Bel and the Dragon, placed at the end of the book.

The stories are included in Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox bibles but are considered apocryphal books by Protestants.

https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/107/arguments-for-early-late-date-of-authorship-of-daniel

Arguments for a late (2nd century BC) dating:
Anti-Prophetic Argument
One of the first people to dispute the traditional dating of Daniel was Porphyry, a pagan philosopher whose arguments have been preseved by Jerome. He argues that some of the prophecies in Daniel are so congruent to the time of Antiochus IV Epiphanes, the book must have been written during his time (175-164 BC).

OK, I am not going to read anymore of this as my mind is getting mushy,

We know Daniel was a great prophet. BUT WHAT WE CANNOT BE SURE OF IS FROM WHERE HE GOT HIS DATES.

We know that Daniel was in the Old Testament and that it is the first division of the Christian biblical canon, which is based primarily upon the 24 books of the Hebrew Bible or Tanakh, a collection of ancient religious Hebrew and occasionally Aramaic writings by the Israelites.

A few passages in the Old Testament were written in Aramaic (Genesis 31:47; (OH NO!... Moses really wanted us confused didn't he  rofl) Ezra 4:8-6:18, 7:12-26; Jeremiah 10:11)

The earliest translation of the Hebrew Bible is the Old Greek (OG), the translation made in Alexandria, Egypt, for the use of the Greek-speaking Jewish community there.  At first, just the Torah was translated, in the third century B.C.E.

So I would think that a Jewish calendar or recording of Dates would be in line, rather then to trust in some translation that came along without understanding of of the history of such back then.

IF... FOR EXAMPLE... FROM THE LINK IN THE ABOVE POST... In the Hebrew scriptures, the dates of kings and priests were governed by regnal years. Instead of noting a specific date in the calendar when the last king died and counting the days, the method was to note who was the king on the first day of the beginning of the civil year and then count the number of years that this applied. The civil year began on the first day of the month of Tishri, the Feast of Trumpets.

Then... whatever is written such as so many years to so many years likely is off some.....

NOW... LET THE FUN BEGIN

https://www.galileecalendarcompany.com/differences-between-gregorian-calendar-and-jewish-calendar-systems%E2%80%A8/ 

Differences Between Gregorian Calendar and Jewish Calendar Systems


The Gregorian calendar is the most commonly used calendar system worldwide given that it is also the international standard. The Jewish calendar, on the other hand, is still used today by the Jews for religious purposes. The Gregorian calendar is used for secular matter and civil purposes. Aside from the Jews, the dates written in certain passages in the bible are in Jewish calendar setting. Check out the differences between the two calendar systems below. ( my note:...... NOT ALL passages.)

The Jewish calendar is based on a lunar calendar system. The first day of the week in the Jewish calendar is on Yom Rishon which is Sunday in the Gregorian calendar. The last day of the week on the Jewish calendar is the Yom Shabbat or Sabbath Day is on Saturday. The Jewish calendar's first month is Nissan which begins in either March or April. The Jewish calendar only has 354 days but adds an additional month seven times in 19 years to keep in sync with the solar year.

The Jewish calendar also dictates the age of the earth since its creation according to the Bible in the Book of Genesis. As of the Jewish calendar today, it is year 5779 since the creation of the earth. The Jewish holidays also follow the Jewish calendar only since using the Gregorian calendar would result to a different date every year. The Three Pilgrimage Festivals (Pesach, Shavuot, and Sukkot) begins in the first month of the Jewish calendar until the third month. The Jewish calendar also remained the same since the Old Testament.

https://pjlibrary.org/beyond-books/pjblog/june-2021/frequently-asked-questions-jewish-calendar
When did the Jewish calendar begin?

According to the biblical Book of Exodus, it's precisely when the Israelite slaves are about to go free that we see the first appearance of the Jewish calendar – as a map for their journey into freedom, because free people have control over their own time. ( my note: So this covers the time of Daniel and the entire rest of the OT and new.)

It says: "This month of Aviv (literally, "springtime," later renamed Nisan) will be the first month of the year [because it marks your exodus from Egypt]."

AND THE MOST THOUGHT PROVOKING FUN OF IT ALL.....

https://www.britannica.com/story/ten-days-that-vanished-the-switch-to-the-gregorian-calendar

Ten Days That Vanished: The Switch to the Gregorian Calendar
Written and fact-checked by the editors of the Encyclopedia Britannica.

Cathedrale St.Jean in Lyon, France has a 14th-century astronomical clock that shows religious feast days till the year 2019; Perpetual Calendar
© Jakez/Shutterstock.com

When it comes to calendars, small errors can add up over time. The Julian calendar—the prevalent calendar in the Christian world for the first millennium CE and part of the second millennium—was an improvement over the Roman republican calendar that it replaced, but it was 11 minutes and 14 seconds longer than the tropical year (the time it takes the Sun to return to the same position, as seen from Earth). The result was that the calendar drifted about one day for every 314 years.

One of the most pressing problems caused by the error was the increasing difficulty of calculating the date of Easter, which the Council of Nicaea in 325 had decreed should fall on the first Sunday following the first full moon after the vernal equinox, which at the time fell on March 21. The growing discrepancy between the date set by the council and the actual vernal equinox was noted in the 8th century CE, if not earlier, and a number of proposals for reform were brought before popes in the Middle Ages. But no action was taken, and the Julian calendar, flawed as it was, remained the official calendar of the Christian church.

In its session of 1562–63, the Council of Trent passed a decree calling for the pope to fix the problem by implementing a reformed calendar. But it took another two decades to find a suitable fix and put it into place. After years of consultation and research, Pope Gregory XIII signed a papal bull in February 1582 promulgating the reformed calendar that came to be known as the Gregorian calendar. The reforms were based on the suggestions of the Italian scientist Luigi Lilio, with some modifications by the Jesuit mathematician and astronomer Christopher Clavius. (  ::eek::  the Jesuit  )

The most surreal part of implementing the new calendar came in October 1582, when 10 days were dropped from the calendar to bring the vernal equinox from March 11 back to March 21. The church had chosen October to avoid skipping any major Christian festivals. So, in countries that adopted the new calendar, the Feast of St. Francis of Assisi on October 4, 1582, was directly followed by October 15. France made the transition separately in December.

Something as complex as implementing a new calendar couldn't go off without some complications, though. The Protestant and Orthodox countries didn't want to take direction from the pope, so they refused to adopt the new calendar. The result was that Catholic Europe—Austria, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Poland, and the Catholic states of Germany—suddenly jumped ahead of the rest of the continent by 10 days, and traveling across a border often meant traveling forward or backward on the calendar.

Eventually, non-Catholic countries did begin to adopt the Gregorian calendar. The Protestant regions of Germany and the Netherlands switched in the 17th century. Great Britain and the territories of the British Empire followed suit in 1752, spreading the Gregorian calendar around the globe.

So until and unless I can come up with a solid Jewish calendar shwing and incontrovertible Nisan 14 Wed being either in 30AD or 33AD I am sticking with 30AD.


BUT now I want to know what year Jewish and Gregorian it really is....... That 10 days could have made me born in June   ::eek::::eek::

And all the timing of things could make 2033 or even 2030 off the mark. ::headscratch:: ::headscratch:: ::headscratch::[/size]

: Rella  Fri May 05, 2023 - 06:12:09
Thanks for the correction....

Here's an article about what I was talking about...

https://orthodoxchristiantheology.com/2022/05/27/irenaeus-on-jesus-being-almost-50-years-old-and-ramifications-upon-apostolic-tradition/

...sorry if I wasted your time.

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Fri May 05, 2023 - 21:28:28
Here's an article about what I was talking about...

https://orthodoxchristiantheology.com/2022/05/27/irenaeus-on-jesus-being-almost-50-years-old-and-ramifications-upon-apostolic-tradition/

...sorry if I wasted your time.

Dont be sorry.... I find this interesting even if not true. And never a waste of time on anything historical or biblical.

If there was not discrepancy I would not have found what I will post in my next thread about
"It's possible that the writer of Daniel stated time periods precisely in days because calendars and calculations of dates was a major issue at the time, although we can't be certain this was the reason. In fact, there may be a reference in Daniel to a change in calendars during the Seleucid period:"

Now the search is on because inquiring minds want to know . (So much to read, so here is a start.....) The following, where bolded or color change etc is found that is me. Also I have split certain paragraphs for easier reading for those that may have trouble reading large paragraphs. But it is copied and pasted exactly.

Houston? Do we have a problem?

https://stephencook.com.au/2020/11/27/daniels-time-periods-and-the-lunar-versus-solar-calendar-debate/

Daniel's time periods and the Lunar versus Solar Calendar debate
מִקְרָא MIKRA: BIBLICAL STUDIES
Dr Stephen D. Cook (and friends)

I expect most modern Christians would be well aware that the eastern and western branches of Christianity celebrate Christmas (and Easter) on different days, and that two different calendars (the Gregorian and the Julian) have been in use since 1582. What they may not know is that in the second temple era – the time "between the testaments" and the first century of the common era – there was a similar debate about which calendar to use. The Bible itself doesn't have much to say about the controversy, although we might get the occasional hint of it.

Some of the books known as "pseudepigrapha" and some of the documents in the Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS) have more to say about it, including 1 Enoch, Jubilees, the Temple Scroll, and 4QMMT (Miqsat Ma'ase ha-Torah, or "Some Rulings Pertaining to the Torah").

The main reason for the debate was that some Jewish groups insisted that the festivals and holy days should be calculated using a lunar calendar (354 days) or a variation known as a lunisolar calendar which made up for the shortfall in days by adding leap-days or leap-months ("intercalary" months), while others used a solar calendar (364 days).

We also get hints in the Bible that a 360-days calendar was in use at some time. I won't go into the technical details here because ... well, it's technical!

In a nutshell, it appears from some of the discussion in the DSS that the calendar controversy was so important to the group which settled in Qumran (most scholars argue they were Essenes) that it was a contributing factor which led them to actually physically move from Jerusalem to the desert near the Dead Sea. The Qumran community used a solar calendar of 364 days.

The present-day Jewish calendar evolved over several centuries but is a lunisolar one and, as rabbinical Judaism is descended from the Pharisees there are good reasons for thinking that the Qumran community and the Pharisees used different calendars. The Greeks and the Hellenistic Jews also used a solar calendar but it was probably different to the one used by the Essenes and so was considered to be 'pagan' and therefore abhorrent.

In a couple recent posts I touched on the prophetic time periods in the book of Daniel. I suggested that they almost certainly referred to the length of the Maccabean revolt and the period between the desecration of the Temple by the Seleucid king Antiochus IV Epiphanes and its re-dedication by Judah Maccabee. Josephus states quite explicitly that this period was 3 years and 6 months (Wars of the Jews. 1.1.1). I did say it is a matter for the experts, and while acknowledging that I'm not a Daniel-expert (or even close) I'm going to put my toe in the water, especially as these dates quite possibly relate to calendars.

First, here is a list of the time periods mentioned in Daniel which approximate to 3 – 3 ½ years:

A time, two times, and half a time (7:25; 12:7). Possibly equivalent to "a year, two years, and half a year" i.e. 3 ½ years
2300 evenings and mornings (i.e. 1150 days, or about 38 months, or just over 3 years)

1290 days (12:11), approximately 3 ½ years (depending on which calendar is used and how many days are in the year)

1335 days (12:12), or 45 days longer than the 1290 days in the previous verse. This difference may simply be the length of time between Judah's victory over the Seleucids and the re-dedication of the Temple a short time later.

Daniel also has a period of seventy weeks (literally "seventy sevens" in Hebrew), broken into smaller periods of 7 weeks/sevens, 62 weeks/sevens and half a week/seven (9:24-27). The length of these "sevens" is not specified. Hence, the full period could be seventy "weeks" or 70 X 7 years. That would make the final small-division "half a seven", which could mean either 3 ½ days or 3 ½ years.

Second, the New Testament book of Revelation, which appears to draw much of its material from Daniel, has some similar periods:

1260 days, or 42 months (11:2-3; 12:6), which is approximately (or precisely) equivalent to 3 ½ years depending on which calendar is used and how many days are in the month and year.

42 months (11:2; 13:5), which is equivalent to 3 ½ years of 30-day months.

Although it's not 3 ½ years Revelation also has a period of 3 ½ days (11:9, 11). There may not be a connection, but equally it may not be coincidence.

It looks like the writer of Revelation is using a 360-days calendar, and this could explain why he has 1260 days when Daniel has 1290.

If they are using different calendars 3 ½ years would be 1260 days using one calendar but 1290 (including a 30-day intercalary month) using another.

It's possible that the writer of Daniel stated time periods precisely in days because calendars and calculations of dates was a major issue at the time, although we can't be certain this was the reason. In fact, there may be a reference in Daniel to a change in calendars during the Seleucid period:

He [Antiocus IV] shall speak words against the Most High, shall wear out the holy ones of the Most High, and shall attempt to change the seasons and the law; and they shall be given into his power for a time, two times, and half a time. DANIEL 7:25

Some scholars argue that the phrase "he shall attempt to change the seasons" is a reference to the imposition of the Hellenistic lunisolar calendar on Judea, changing the times when religious festivals would be observed. (The word זִמְנִין can mean either seasons or times.)

Some speculate that this could have been been one of the factors which triggered the Maccabean revolt. While the Qumran community and the priests at the Jerusalem Temple both used calendars of 364 days, the months, festivals and seasons were calculated using different methods.

There very well may have been three or four calendars in use around this time: the solar calendar used by the Qumran group; a lunisolar calendar used by the Pharisees; a Hellenistic solar calendar which also had 364 days but replaced Jewish festivals with Greek ones; and possibly a solar calendar used in the Temple by Hellenistic priests (Sadducees) which blended the Greek and Jewish calendars and was not accepted by the Pharisees or the Qumran group.

Does this matter at all to how we understand Daniel?

Perhaps not, although it is important to know the background to the conflicts between the Seleucids and the Maccabees which are the focus of much of Daniel.

The calendar was one of these issues, and there is a hint in Daniel 7:25 that it was a concern to the writer. ( added by me:  Daniel 7:25 King James Version 25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Daniel's numbers may be symbolic, although the fact that they line up pretty closely with the historical records in 1 & 2 Maccabees and in Josephus makes me think that they refer literally, rather than symbolically, to the duration of the Maccabean revolt.

But the writer of Daniel may also have been consciously using a kind of 'code' in his use of numbers to let his readers know exactly where he stood on the calendar issue.

It is similar to the way small details can reveal a lot about a person or a group.

For example, in some Christian denominations a visitor to a church might be able to detect from which edition of the denominational Prayer Book or Hymn Book is being used where that congregation stands on a whole host of issues. Simply from the congregation's choice about which edition of the Prayer Book to use, a visitor might be able to determine where they stand, for example, on the ordination of women. An outsider probably wouldn't pick anything up from such a small detail, but an insider would read it as a code which reveals more information. Perhaps we have a similar 'code' in Daniel's references to the days in a year, or in 3 ½ years.

Here you go Rella...

another source that is an interesting one to read, written by a New Zealand pastor named Christian Gedge.  His website is www.5loaves2fishes.net , in case you haven't run across this one yet. 

If you click on Christian Gedge's  "research articles", the ones you would mainly be interested in for your current study theme are entitled: "The Atonement Clock", "The Chronology of the Kingdom", and "Chronology of the Cross".  He agrees with your opinion that AD 30 is the crucifixion year, but unfortunately, he does not take into account that Christ's ministry was NOT dated from His baptism in AD 27, but from the beginning of His miraculous ministry which began 3 years later.   I don't agree with his position on many things, but the gentleman in so thorough in his studies that I have benefitted from just reading through his material.  I also enjoy just listening to his New Zealand accent on his podcasts...

The gospel of John shows us that the Jews knew very well when Daniel's prophesied beginning year for the manifestation of Messiah the Prince would take place (aka, the beginning of the 70th "week" of years).  This is why (in John 1:19 and following) they sent a delegation of priests and Levites from Jerusalem to John at that very specific year, asking John if he were the prophesied Christ, or Elias, or the prophet.  John told them that he himself was only the voice of one crying in the wilderness, who had been preparing the way of the Lord.  He reminded them that he, John, had already witnessed the Holy Spirit descending and remaining on Jesus at His baptism - which had already taken place much earlier in time.   Exactly three days later, Christ performed His first miracle at Cana, beginning His public ministry.  The gospel of John as written starts with events in the years AFTER Christ's baptism, while the other gospels include the story of Christ's baptism in their chronology of events. 

John said that Christ's manifestation as Messiah the Prince was to come AFTER his own period of ministry had ended: "There cometh one mightier than I AFTER ME, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose."  This means that Christ's public ministry as Daniel's Messiah the Prince coming to His own people would begin AFTER John had "fulfilled his course" and had been imprisoned - which was in AD 30.  John performed no miracles, but against this backdrop of no miracles being performed by John, Jesus immediately began His earthly ministry with the miracle at Cana (in AD 30), and continued displays of such miraculous power throughout His ministry. 

: 3 Resurrections  Sat May 06, 2023 - 11:11:36
Here you go Rella...

another source that is an interesting one to read, written by a New Zealand pastor named Christian Gedge.  His website is www.5loaves2fishes.net , in case you haven't run across this one yet. 

If you click on Christian Gedge's  "research articles", the ones you would mainly be interested in for your current study theme are entitled: "The Atonement Clock", "The Chronology of the Kingdom", and "Chronology of the Cross".  He agrees with your opinion that AD 30 is the crucifixion year, but unfortunately, he does not take into account that Christ's ministry was NOT dated from His baptism in AD 27, but from the beginning of His miraculous ministry which began 3 years later.   I don't agree with his position on many things, but the gentleman in so thorough in his studies that I have benefitted from just reading through his material.  I also enjoy just listening to his New Zealand accent on his podcasts...

The gospel of John shows us that the Jews knew very well when Daniel's prophesied beginning year for the manifestation of Messiah the Prince would take place (aka, the beginning of the 70th "week" of years).  This is why (in John 1:19 and following) they sent a delegation of priests and Levites from Jerusalem to John at that very specific year, asking John if he were the prophesied Christ, or Elias, or the prophet.  John told them that he himself was only the voice of one crying in the wilderness, who had been preparing the way of the Lord.  He reminded them that he, John, had already witnessed the Holy Spirit descending and remaining on Jesus at His baptism - which had already taken place much earlier in time.   Exactly three days later, Christ performed His first miracle at Cana, beginning His public ministry.  The gospel of John as written starts with events in the years AFTER Christ's baptism, while the other gospels include the story of Christ's baptism in their chronology of events. 

John said that Christ's manifestation as Messiah the Prince was to come AFTER his own period of ministry had ended: "There cometh one mightier than I AFTER ME, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose."  This means that Christ's public ministry as Daniel's Messiah the Prince coming to His own people would begin AFTER John had "fulfilled his course" and had been imprisoned - which was in AD 30.  John performed no miracles, but against this backdrop of no miracles being performed by John, Jesus immediately began His earthly ministry with the miracle at Cana (in AD 30), and continued displays of such miraculous power throughout His ministry.

::reading:: ::reading:: ::reading:: ::reading:: ::reading:: ::reading:: ::reading::

Oh I am a busy little bee. LOL

Thanks for this.... Ill delve in after I finish my Jesus baptism readings....

So close... those 3 years of separation. And nothing definitive.

OKAY... be happy. I wont post anymore today... ::clappingoverhead::

Good morning 3Rs,

First are my apologies for the length of this. And please not that "Last Days of Jesus Timeline" mentioned last in here has it's own thread... due to length and also content.

I have just started to read things you recommended in your link and admittedly will take me more then a brief hour.

I wont comment much right now as I have started with Chronology of the Cross and will want to study it further as there are contradictions that I have read but
definitively stated is Modern research has enabled us through astronomical and computer technology to pinpoint two possible dates for the cross. They are AD 30 or AD 33. This is based on Old Testament information that the Passover lamb was slain late on the 14th Nisan and eaten early on the fifteenth. Therefore, since the Hebrew day began at sunset, Jesus' last meal with his disciples would have been about 9 pm, Thursday, the fifteenth Nisan.

     You and I both agree that he was not buried between 3 and 6PM on Friday. (The 3 days just do not work! Period.)

Further, "Now, Hebrew months begin on the sighting of new moon and the position of the moon can be determined at any moment in history enabling us to convert lunar dates. When we examine AD 31 for example, Passover fell on a Tuesday; but Jesus' last supper was not on a Tuesday. This particular Passover had to be Thursday/Friday and, according to data from astronomical observatories, Passover occurred late Thursday 15th Nisan during this period only on 6th April AD 30 and 2nd April AD 33. Therefore, since Christ was crucified later on Friday, the crucifixion date must either be 7th April AD 30 or 3rd April AD 33.

Yet they confuse the issue with : "Therefore, the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius would make it AD 26-27 correlating with the start of Christ's ministry and supporting the AD 30 date as the most likely date of his crucifixion.

Last line, after all the supporting evidence it says "There is a consistent pattern of evidence that our Lord was crucified late on Passover day, approx 3 pm, April 7th AD 30.

I will continue to read from that site but I had done a lot of reading yesterday and wanted to post things I found.

I Had done a search for (The following links are by no means the only links I can provide, but are among the more easily understood.)

When was Jesus baptised... and from the drop down list it seems the consensus

     https://bibleask.org › jesus-get-baptized
     

When did Jesus get baptized? - BibleAsk
     According to Bible chronology, Jesus got baptized in the autumn of A.D. 27 (Matthew 3:13-17; Mark 1:9-11; Luke 3:21-22).
     The Bible tells us, " Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar ... the word of God came to John the son of
     Zacharias in the wilderness.

     https://evidenceforchristianity.org › what-year-was-jesus-baptized
     

What Year was Jesus baptized? - Evidence for Christianity
     If we take AD 30 as the most likely date for the death of Jesus and we take three years as the length of time of his public
     ministry, then Jesus was baptized in AD 27. I think we can say with a good degree of confidence that the baptism of Jesus
     was somewhere between AD 25-28, with the most likely date being AD 27. John Oakes

I then asked what year Jesus was Baptised and got

     https://www.biblestudy.org/maps/jesus-baptism-timeline.html
   

Fall of 26 A.D.
     On Monday, September 2 in 26 A.D., Jesus turned thirty years old. This was the most important birthday in his entire life,
     as thirty was the Biblical age that needed to be reached before a priest could begin to serve God (see Numbers 4:3, 23,
     47).

     Jesus, after turning this momentous age, travels from his boyhood home of Nazareth (Mark 1:9) to Bethabara (John 1:28)
     to be baptized. Bethabara is located southeast of the Sea of Galilee on the eastern side of the Jordan River. It is the place
     where John the Baptist, for the past six months, has been calling for people to repent of their sins and be baptized (John
     1:19 - 27).

     Interestingly, John does not know in advance who exactly is the Messiah (John 1:31, 33). God has told him, however, to
     look for a special sign denoting who is His only Son. This sign (likely only visible to John), which will occur after the
     baptism, will be the Holy Spirit descending out of heaven and remaining on the person (ultimately Jesus).

     https://www.crosswalk.com › faith › bible-study › where-was-jesus-baptized.html
     

Where Was Jesus Baptized? Importance of the Jordan River - Crosswalk.com
     It was there, somewhere in between A.D. 26-29, that John the Baptist began his public ministry, baptizing people in the
     Jordan River at a place described in John's gospel as "Bethany beyond the Jordan" (John 1:28).

SO WE CAN SEE THERE IS A LOT OF SUPPORT FOR THE APPROXIMATE DATE  OF 27AD FOR HIS BAPTISM.

NOW: I then searched for After Jesus was baptised how long until he started his ministry. THIS WAS NOT AS CLEAR CUT AS ONE MIGHT EXPECT.  (again from the drop down list.)

     https://www.thesacredcalendar.com/downloads/timeline-of-jesus-ministry/

      The timeline of Jesus Ministry and His public life begins with the baptism of Jesus by John the Baptist in the fifteenth year
     of Roman Emperor Tiberius according to Luke 3:1. John the Baptist begins his public ministry in the Spring of 26 AD with
     the call to repentance in the region of the Jordon River according to Luke 3:1-14. Tiberius Caesar began his joint reign with
     Augustus on July 1 in 11 AD.  This clearly puts this time of year for the Baptism of Jesus in the late summer of 26 AD.

     First Year of Public Ministry
     After His baptism by John the Baptist, Jesus is tempted in the wilderness for 40 days and 40 nights without water or food. 
     After coming out the wilderness, Jesus begins calling His Disciples saying "Come, follow me, and I will make you fishers of
     men" (Matthew 4:19). A sample of some of the first year events of the public life and ministry of Jesus includes the
     following:

I DONT HAVE MUCH BELIEF IN THE WIKI ACCOUNT.  Anytime you have spacing of years such as 27-29 or 30-36 it make for a harder to determing time. BUT one can gather some informative info.

     WIKI
     

https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Ministry_of_Jesus
     2] [3] A chronology of Jesus typically sets the date of the start of his ministry at around AD 27-29 and the end in the range
     AD 30-36. [2] [3] [4] [note 1] Jesus' early Galilean ministry begins when after his baptism, he goes back to Galilee from his
     temptation in the Judaean Desert. [5]

     The ministry of Jesus, in the canonical gospels, begins with his baptism in the countryside of Roman Judea and Transjordan,
     near the River Jordan by John the Baptist, and ends in Jerusalem, following the Last Supper with his disciples.[1] The
     Gospel of Luke (Luke 3:23) states that Jesus was "about 30 years of age" at the start of his ministry.[2][3] A chronology of
     Jesus typically sets the date of the start of his ministry at around AD 27–29 and the end in the range AD 30–36.[2][3][4]
     [note 1]

     The Early Galilean ministry begins when, according to Matthew, Jesus goes back to Galilee from the Judean desert, after
     rebuffing the temptation of Satan.

     https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%204&version=ESV

     The Temptation of Jesus
     4 And Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit in the wilderness 2 for forty days,
     being tempted by the devil. And he ate nothing during those days. And when they were ended, he was hungry.

     12 And Jesus answered him, "It is said, 'You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.'" 13 And when the devil had ended
     every temptation, he departed from him until an opportune time.

    Jesus Begins His Ministry
     14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit to Galilee, and a report about him went out through all the surrounding
     country. 15 And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified by all.

Obviously Jesus taught  (the beginning of His ministry) shortly after returning from the wilderness.

THE LAST POSTING ON HERE FOR NOW BECAUSE I AM GOING TO MAKE A SEPARATE THREAD FROM THIS LINK AS IT HAS QUITE A TIMELINE.

     https://www.biblestudy.org/maps/jesus-baptism-timeline.html

     Two main parts
     Jesus' earthly ministry, which encompassed the last 3 1/2 years of his life, can be divided into two main parts. The first part
     lasts roughly six months from the fall of 26 A.D. (where this timeline begins) to the spring of 27. Events in this period of
     include his baptism performed by John the Baptist and forty days of temptation by Satan in the Judean wilderness.

     This latter part of this six-month period, after Jesus' baptism, includes his initial contact with many of the men who would
     become his apostles. Jesus also performs his first Biblically recorded miracle at a Cana wedding celebration, travels to his
     new home in Capernaum, and then journeys to Jerusalem to keep the first Passover of his ministry.

     The second part or phase of Jesus' ministry, which lasts for three years until his crucifixion, begins during the Passover
     season of 27 A.D. It is during this special Holy Day period that he makes his presence, for the first time, publically
     known at Jerusalem's temple. He does so by throwing out the many merchants and "money changers" at the temple who
     were carnally benefitting in a place dedicated to worshipping the true God (John 2:13 - 25).

     Temptation ends . . . for now
     Satan's concentrated temptations finally ended on Sunday, October 20, exactly forty days after they began

[/size]
   

     

Perhaps a brand new thread altogether under a different subject title  is warranted, but since this is in the vein of our last few exchanges I am keeping this here.... (If you look at the actual link you will find pictures that I am not copying to here)

https://www.biblestudy.org/maps/last-days-of-jesus-timeline.html

Last Days of Jesus Timeline
(March 29 to April 9, 30 A.D.)
Ask a Question!   -   Newsletter
This next to last of our timelines in this series delineates, in detail, the last days of Jesus' life. It also covers the Biblical events immediately after his crucifixion. Other timelines in this series are listed at the bottom of this article.

Last Days of Jesus Timeline
What happened during Jesus' last days of life? When did he die? Who first saw him after the resurrection?



Wednesday, March 29th in 30 A.D.

The last days in the life of Jesus begin near sunset. His trip to Lazarus' house in Bethany began in Jericho, which is 17 miles (27.3 kilometers) away. In the early evening, after arriving in the home, he has supper (John 12:1 - 2).

Lazarus' sister Mary, after supper, anoints Jesus' feet with very expensive ointment. Judas (who carries the group's money bag) complains that what was spent on ointment could have been used to help the poor. The real reason Judas complained to Jesus was that he was a thief who wanted more money to steal (John 12:3 - 11).

Thursday, March 30

Jesus, in the morning, travels from Lazarus' house in Bethany to Bethphage, which is a Sabbath day's journey (1,000 yards or .91 kilometers) away from Jerusalem. He then mounts a colt for his triumphal entry into the city. The gathering crowd, as he travels, begins to praise him and God (Mark 11:9 - 10). They also place their clothes and cut palm tree branches on the road in front of him.

The Pharisees (religious leaders) hear the crowd's praises and ask Jesus to tell them to shut up! He replies that if they did not cry out praises the stones would (Matthew 21:1 - 11, Mark 11:1 - 10, Luke 19:29 - 40, John 12:12 - 19)!

Nearing Jerusalem Jesus begins to cry over the city. He is heard saying that, because the city did not accept him as Savior, it would soon be destroyed (Luke 19:41 - 44). He goes to the temple and returns in the evening to Bethany (Mark 11:11). He teaches daily in the temple (Luke 19:47 - 48).

Jesus in house of Martha and Mary
Jesus in house of Martha and Mary
Cornelis Engebrechtsz, c. 1515
Friday, March 31

Jesus, as he travels during the morning back to Jerusalem, becomes hungry. He spots a fig tree and goes to it hoping to find figs. Finding only leaves he says to the tree "Let no one eat fruit from you ever again" (Mark 11:14). He arrives at the temple and casts out the money changers and dove sellers, saying the following.

"It is written, 'My house is a house of prayer,' but you have made it a 'den of thieves'" (Luke 19:46).

Money changers, notorious for being corrupt, exchanged currency for the Temple's half-shekel coin needed to pay the yearly temple tribute. Those who were poor bought doves and used them to make a temple offering.

Children begin to shout "Hosanna to the Son of David!" (Matthew 21:15) while Jesus heals at the temple. The chief priests and scribes, hearing the children, make themselves quite angry and tell him to make them stop. He corrects them by stating the children are fulfilling prophecy (Matthew 21:12 - 16, Mark 11:12 - 17, Luke 19:45 - 48). He returns to Bethany for the night (Matthew 21:17, Mark 11:19).

Saturday, April 1

In the morning, while traveling to Jerusalem, the disciples notice that the cursed fig tree is dried up (Matthew 21:19 - 22, Mark 11:20 - 26). Some Hellenist Jews, in Jerusalem to celebrate the feast, ask Philip if they can see him. When told of the request Jesus states his time has come to be glorified (John 12:20 - 27). He asks God the Father to glorify His (the Father's) name.

A thunderous voice from heaven states God had, and will again, glorify His name (John 12:28 - 30). He states that now is the judgment of the world and that the prince of this world (Satan) will be cast out (John 12:31 - 36). He leaves the city again and hides himself for the remainder of the Sabbath (John 12:36).

Sunday, April 2

In the morning, at Jerusalem's temple, the chief priests, scribes and elders, for the final time, confront and challenge Jesus' authority (Matthew 21:23 - 24:2, Mark 11:27 - 13:2, Luke 20:1 - 21:4). The confrontation lasts from morning to late afternoon.

Late in the afternoon Jesus and the disciples start to leave the temple area for the Mount of Olives. As they exit he reveals that Jerusalem's temple will soon be destroyed (Matthew 24:1 - 2, Mark 13:1 - 2, Luke 21:5 - 6). On the Mount of Olives he prophesies about the events to occur just before his second coming to earth and the completion of the age (Matthew 24:3 - 26:2, Mark 13:3 - 7, Luke 21:7 - 38).

Near evening, the disciples are told that the Passover is after two days (Matthew 26:2, Mark 14:1). The chief priests, scribes, elders, etc. of the Great Sanhedrin, who hate him, meet at the palace of Caiaphas the high priest. They meet to discuss how to have him killed "by trickery" (Matthew 26:5). Jesus travels to Bethany and stays at Simon the Leper's house.

While eating a woman comes in and anoints his head with very expensive ointment. Some of the disciples roundly criticize the woman for buying such costly ointment instead of using the money to help the poor. He, however, first chides the disciples for being overly critical then states the woman was anointing him for his burial (Matthew 26:6 - 13, Mark 14:3 - 9).

Monday, April 3

Judas betrays Christ to the chief priests for thirty pieces of silver (Matthew 26:14 - 16, Mark 14:10 - 11, Luke 22:3 - 6).

Tuesday, April 4

The disciples prepare for the Passover (Matthew 26:17 - 19, Mark 14:12 - 16, Luke 22:7 - 13). At sunset, they observe the last Passover Jesus will partake of (Matthew 26, Mark 14, Luke 22, John 13). After the service is completed they sing a hymn then walk to the Mount of Olives (Matthew 26:30, Mark 14:26).

At roughly 9 p.m., while walking to the Garden of Gethsemane (at the foot of the Mount of Olives), Jesus tells the disciples he is the True Vine (John 15:1 - 27). He offers his final words of encouragement (John 16:1 - 31) and again states that the disciples will leave him (John 16:32 - 33).

Jesus and his disciples arrive at the Garden of Gethsemane, where Peter, James and John are designated to stand watch while Christ prays for three hours. His disciples, though asked to stay awake while he prays, quickly fall asleep. Although he initially prays that the "cup" of suffering and death awaiting him be taken away, the Lord ultimately accepts whatever the Father wills (Matthew 26: 36 - 44, Mark 14:32 - 40, Luke 22:39 - 46, John 17).

Wednesday, April 5

After midnight, when (according to the Roman calendar we use today) it becomes Wednesday, Judas arrives in the Garden of Gethsemane accompanied by armed officers and other men provided by the religious leaders. Judas, as a signal of which person to arrest, gives Jesus a kiss (Matthew 26:45 - 49, Mark 14:41 - 45, Luke 22:47 - 48, John 18:1 - 8).

The High Priest, at approximately 2 a.m., questions Jesus about His disciples and teachings but does not receive an answer. Frustrated, he adjures him by the living God to state whether or not he is the true Son of God (Matthew 26:62 - 63). The answer he receives so angers him that he tears his clothes and cries out that Christ has committed blasphemy.

The High Priest then immediately asks the council for a verdict, to which they unanimously shout that the death penalty should be carried out (Matthew 26:59 - 68, Mark 14:55 - 65, Luke 22:63 - 65). Peter then denies him three times (Matthew 26:69 - 75, Mark 14:66 - 72, Luke 22:56 - 62, John 18:17, 25 - 27).

At approximately 5 to 6 a.m., because Jewish law demanded two sessions of the Sanhedrin hear and try a defendant, a second trial of Jesus was held around 5 a.m. This second trial, however, seems little more than a "rubber stamp" or automatic approval of the first trial's decision. He is bound and sent to Pontius Pilate, the Roman Prefect of Judea, for punishment around 6 a.m. (Matthew 27:1 - 2, Mark 15:1, Luke 22:66 - 23:1, John 18:28)

Judas Iscariot, at sunrise, repents of betraying Christ but still hangs himself. The Chief Priests decide to buy a potter's field with thirty pieces of silver Judas gave back to them (Matthew 27:3 - 10, Acts 1:15 - 19)

At approximately 7 a.m., instead of blasphemy, the Jewish leaders bring Jesus to Pontius Pilate under the charge of treason against Rome. They do this in order to improve their chances of the Romans putting him to death.

While Pilate questions Jesus (Matthew 27:11 - 14, Mark 15:2 - 5, Luke 23:2 - 4, John 18:29 - 30) he discovers he is from Galilee and sends him to Herod Antipas (Tetrarch of Galilee and son of Herod the Great) for judgment. Herod questions him but receives no answers. Herod and his soldiers mock him, put a splendid robe on him, and send him back to Pilate (Luke 23:5 - 12).

Pontius Pilate, at roughly 8 a.m., tells the Jewish religious leaders that he and Herod Antipas find Jesus innocent. Pilate wishes to release him (Luke 23:13 - 15, John 18:31 - 38). Unable to do so because of the crowds, he releases the prisoner Barabbas. He then has his soldiers severely beat and scourge Jesus.

The soldiers take Jesus to Golgotha, also known as Calvary and the Place of the Skull, to be crucified. Along the route they force Simon of Cyrene to carry his cross (Matthew 27:32 - 33, Mark 15:21 - 22, Luke 23:26 - 31, John 19:16 - 17).

Jesus, from 9 a.m. to noon, is nailed to the cross. He is crucified along with two thieves (Matthew 27:38, Mark 15:27 - 28, Luke 23:32 - 33, John 19:18). He is given wine (vinegar) mixed with gall to drink while on the cross (Matthew 27:34, Mark 15:23). Roman soldiers also cast lots for his clothes.

Pontius Pilate has the charge against him written in Hebrew, Greek and Latin and put on Jesus' cross. Near the end of his life Christ asks God the Father to forgive those that are killing him (Matthew 27:35 - 36, Mark 15:24 - 25, Luke 23:34, John 19:23 - 24).

Some in the crowd, where Christ is crucified, stare at him in amazement. Others such as Roman soldiers, members of the Sanhedrin (chief priests, scribes, elders) and even the two thieves also being crucified, mock him.

Many family and friends, at a distance, watch Jesus suffer on the cross. These include his mother Mary, her sister, Mary Magdalene and the apostle John (Matthew 27:39 - 45, 55 - 56, Mark 15:29 - 33, 40 - 41, Luke 23:35 - 44, 48 - 49).

Darkness covers the entire land from noon to 3 p.m. Jesus tells his mother, Mary, to now consider the apostle John her son and tells John to take care of his mother Mary (John 19:25 - 27).

At 3 p.m. Jesus Christ, the Savior of man, is forsaken by God and cries out with a loud voice: "Eli Eli, lama sabachthani?" Some in the crowd think he is calling out to the prophet Elijah (Matthew 27:46 - 47, Mark 15:34 - 35). He accepts vinegar (sour wine) to wet his lips. A spear is thrust into his side and He cries out with a loud voice "It is Finished!" His last words are, "Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit."


What Does Eli Eli Lama Sabachthani Mean?
Was Jesus, on the cross, shouting out to Elijah for help? How did those near the cross respond?



The Jews, desiring the death of those crucified before the High Holy Day starts (around 6 pm), asks Pilate to break their legs. Pilate agrees. The legs of those crucified with Jesus are broken, but his are not since he is already dead (John 19:31 - 37).

Pilate, just before sunset, allows Joseph of Arimathea, a rich member of the Sanhedrin, to take the body of Jesus. Joseph and Nicodemus wrap his body in fine linen with a mixture of myrrh and aloes and bury him in the brand new tomb Joseph had made for himself (Matthew 27:57 - 61, Mark 15:42 - 47, Luke 23:50 - 55, John 19:38 - 42). At sunset the First Day of Unleavened Bread, a high Holy Day where no work is allowed, begins.

Thursday, April 6

The Chief Priests, along with the Pharisees, visit Pontius Pilate out of fear that Jesus' disciples will secretly steal his body then claim he has risen from the dead. The religious leaders request that Pilate use his troops to have the tomb secured. Pilate, however, gives them permission to use their own guard for the task. The garden tomb is made secure, the stone at the entrance of the tomb is sealed, and a guard is placed near it (Matthew 27:62 - 66). At sunset the holy day ends.

Friday, April 7

Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Salome buy and prepare spices for the body of Jesus. They also prepare to rest on the weekly Bible Sabbath which begins at sunset (Mark 16:1, Luke 23:56).

Saturday, April 8

Late in the afternoon of the weekly Sabbath, Mary Magdalene and the "other Mary" check on where Jesus is buried (Mark 16:1). Then, just before sunset, he is RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD after spending precisely three whole days and three whole nights (72 hours), from sunset Wednesday to sunset Saturday, in the tomb!

Sunday, April 9

Mary Magdalene and other women, early in the morning, go to Jesus' tomb with the spices they had prepared for his body. When the women arrive, they see the large stone that blocked entrance into the tomb moved away and an angel sitting on top of it. The angel then tells the women to enter the tomb.

The women, in the tomb, see a young man clothed in a white robe. He is sitting on the right side of where Jesus was laid. The man shows them that the body is gone. He tells the women to inform the disciples, especially Peter, that Jesus is alive.

Mary Magdalene runs to tell Peter and John what has happened. Peter and John run to the tomb and see his linen cloths lying inside the tomb in one place and the cloth put over his head neatly folded and placed by itself (Matthew 28:2 - 8, Mark 16:2 - 8, Luke 24:1 - 12, John 20:1 - 10).

Mary Magdalene, who had seven demons cast out of her, is the first human to see Jesus alive after his resurrection. He tells Mary not to touch him as he has not yet ascended to God the Father (Mark 16:9 - 11, John 20:11 - 18).

Sometime during the day some Roman soldiers, who guarded the tomb of Jesus, go to the chief priests and report all that had happened. The priests meet with the elders to decide what to do next. They decide to bribe the soldiers with a large sum of money to have them tell an incredibly absurd story as to what happened to the body (Matthew 28:11 - 15).[/size]

Amo, I am certainly not ignoring those "gobs and gobs of scripture".  I just pay careful attention to the time-relevant terms which John applied to the fulfillment of all those prophesies, which you are not doing.  Those time-relevant terms which were applied to all of those unsealed, revealed visions meant that they would be fulfilled in John's generation, by the close of the first-century "time of the end" which concluded in AD 70.

Yes there are time relevant terms, which we both understand, but quite apparently interpret very differently. Please do establish from scripture when the "time of the end" began, and why you think it ended in AD 70. I am not interested in a 3Res says so.

Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ sowed the good seed, and the devil sows the seed of the wicked. The world is the field, and the harvests are the end of this world, (Rev 14:14-20). The time of the end began with the climactic event of the first coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, who sowed the seeds of the fruits of righteousness, which the devil combats with his seeds of the fruits of wickedness. When these harvests are ripe, they will be reaped at the end of this world. As both the mysteries of godliness and iniquity will have played themselves out on the final global stage. Biblical prophecy predicts this before the end of the world concerning the gospel of Jesus Christ and His kingdom, verses the deceptions of this world and the evil ones kingdoms (beasts) at variance with the same.
 
Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

The preaching of the gospel to all nations of the world unto fruition, which is the sowing of the good seed, must take place before the end. The gospel of the kingdom of God at variance with the kingdoms of this world, must be preached unto fruition of both of the same, then the end will come. This is the exact scenario described in biblical prophecy when the final global beast of prophecy attempts to force everyone to worship itself, instead of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Everyone choosing whom they will obey, and therefore which kingdom they belong to. Which prophetic message you do reject and fight against. Though you cannot and will not prevent its fulfillment. (Rom 6:15-23)

Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

Again, the time of the end or the last days, began with the first coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. After which also in these last days, the Spirit of God was poured out at Pentecost, and has been and will continue to be until the end. Empowering the gospel of the kingdom of God proclaimed by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

And again, the last days began at the first coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Who spoke the gospel of the kingdom of God to humanity at that time, and continues to do so through His church to this day. And again, what is one of the culminations of the biblical prophecies of the book of Revelation pertaining to Babylon the Great and the final beast she rides, but the cry for God's people to come out of her. Come out of the the kingdoms and nations of this world which she rides, and into the kingdom of God, before His plagues are poured out upon her and the beast she rides (Rev 18). Which message you do war and fight against in your interpretations of biblical prophecy.

Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

And yet again, Christ appeared in this world, at the time of the end. Which is to say, that His appearing begins the time of the end for this world. As it presents the message according to which, all will decide their fate from that time forward. Until the appointed prophetic time of our Lord's second coming. Which biblical prophecy in the book of Revelation tells us will be immediately preceded by a final beast of prophecy which attempts to force all in the world to worship itself in the place of God. Which God Himself will allow for, that all in one generation will make the only one decision necessary unto salvation or not, in one generation. Then the end shall come, since all decisions regarding the gospel of the kingdom of God or not, will have been made. Which message again, you do war against in denying all such.

The above testimonies reveal the beginning of the time of the end or last days for this present world. Which time itself ends at the second coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, as the book of Revelation and the rest of the bible conclusively teach. Neither the culmination of the prophecies of the book of Revelation or the bible as a whole, end in AD 70 as you suggest. Though certain more specific prophecies of scripture may very well do so.

That was the end of Daniel's people, when the power of the holy people was crushed, as Daniel 12:7 predicted.  Only the sealed-up prophesies which the seven thunders uttered in Revelation 10:4 were reserved for later generations after the close of AD 70, some of which apply to us and our future.

This appears to be another because 3Res says so's. Again, please do back up such statements with scripture. Daniel 12:7 states that the power of the holy people shall be scattered, not that the holy people shall be crushed. God's people have been and shall continue to be persecuted and at times even scattered in this world (Acts 8 & 11:19), but never crushed. This statement in Dan 12:7 however, I believe properly applies to the power of the holy people as it simply states, and not the people themselves. The power of the holy people, is the Holy Spirit of God, unto the preaching and conviction of the truths of holy scripture. More particularly, the power of the gospel of the kingdom of Jesus Christ our Lord. Which message the devil has always sought to scatter and or destroy during both the old and new covenant eras. As the gospel was given during both, and was and is the only means of salvation (Heb 4:2). 

Daniel 12 however, begins with a reference to Michael the great prince which stands for the "children of Daniel's people", and an obvious reference to the resurrection as well. Who are the children of the resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, who wait upon the resurrection of the saved as well at Christ's appearing? The Church of Christ of course. Who are the children of the Jews, but the offspring and inheritors of the blessings of their Messiah. Which is and who are the Church of Christ Jesus our lord, who is the resurrection and the life (Joh 11:25). Who is Michael, but the archangel.

Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.And who calls forth the dead at the resurrection, but the archangel.

How are the dead raised, but by the voice of the archangel.

1 Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Who else's voice can the voice of the archangel be, but the voice of Christ Jesus himself, who testified the following.

Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

And what are the followers of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, but fellow citizens with the old covenant saints, and the children of Abraham by faith.

Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham............................
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith......................
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ......................
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Daniel 12:7 is not about the end of the literal Jewish nation, it is about silencing and scattering the power of the holy people, which is the gospel of the Kingdom of God in and through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. By way of conviction by the Holy Spirit of God.

Christ the Messiah had not come, and there was no Church of Christ for Daniel to refer to when he had his visions and wrote his prophecies. The prophecy therefore refers to Christ's Church as the children of Daniel's people, and rightly so. While the literal Jewish nation was being literally crushed as you suggest this prophecy refers to, the holy people of God were empowered by the Holy Spirit of God, spreading the gospel of the kingdom of God throughout Israel and the world. Their power was not being crushed, but to the contrary, was greater at that time than ever before or probably since. While the literal Jewish nation of the time was being destroyed in judgement form God, exactly because they were no longer God's holy people. Being in a state of apostasy in rejecting their Messiah, as they were in the days of old when God sent His judgements upon them as well.

Daniel 12 is not about the end of the literal nation of Israel, but rather the scattering of the power of God's people during the new covenant era. As much of the book of Daniel is about the new covenant era, as its prophecies also extend to the end of this world. Only there was no Christ or His established church to name at that time. But the true and spiritual Israel accepted their Messiah, and eventually came to be called Christianity. Which itself also apostatized over time, and lost the power as God's holy people through the same means Israel continually lost their witnessing power in this world. By compromising and adapting themselves to the false religions and kingdoms of this world.

The history of which is also an intricate part of the fulfillment of biblical prophecy as well. Prophecy which you fight and war against with your Jesuit inspired interpretations suited to deny these very things. As the masters the Jesuits once served, who now serve them, are in fact the very apostate "Christian" institution which developed over time and scattered the power of the holy people. By polluting the new covenant temple or sanctuary which is the Church of Christ, with false doctrines, idol worship, worship of the dead, the mysteries, and so on and so forth.

Nevertheless, these are the truths you war against. Disregarding the vast testimonies left by the many Protestant Reformers identifying a great many of these apostasies along their way on the road out of Babylon. So be it. I will address more of your as I see it false interpretations as time allows. This post is already to long.

Hey again Rella,

I should emphasize again that I am not in agreement with all points made by the Christian Gedge link I gave you.  On another website where I'm a member, I have briefly engaged with this gentleman, trying to get him to consider a revision for his dates for the no-gap 70 "weeks" of years from start to finish, based on the archaeological evidence we currently have.  However, once someone has written a book about their own view, they are pretty invested in maintaining that view without altering it.   The same is true for Dr. Gentry, who also dismisses my points for the same reason when I have tried to point out on his website some problems with his eschatology views. 

You wrote above that it was difficult to pinpoint the actual time between Christ's baptism and the beginning of His public ministry - that it was not as clear-cut as one might expect.  Perhaps not, but the gospel accounts do describe a time gap between these two events, and definitely indicate that the beginning of Christ's public ministry did NOT start with His baptism in AD 26/27.

The time gap between Christ's baptism and His public ministry is there in the gospels, which can be compared with each other for the proper chronology.  A long time gap is found between Matthew 4:11 (when Satan ended tempting Christ 40 days after His baptism) and later on in Matthew 4:12 (when John was cast into prison).  The scripture says that once Christ heard of John's imprisonment, that He then went successively into Galilee, Nazareth, and Capernaum for His ministry.  Matthew 4:17 says about John's imprisonment that "From that time, Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."  "From that time" after John was imprisoned, the beginning year of Daniel's 70th "week" of "Messiah the Prince" and His ministry of 3-1/2 years was launched. 

John Himself said that Christ was coming AFTER his own ministry had ended.  "He that cometh AFTER me is mightier than I..."  And we know that John's ministry of baptizing continued in the years immediately after Christ's baptism in AD 26/27, until John had "fulfilled his course" (Acts 13:25) and was imprisoned in AD 30.   

This Matthew 4:17 verse above is a duplicate of the Mark 1:15 verse - a quote of Jesus, which tells us that Jesus came into Galilee "after that John was put in prison"  It was then that Christ began preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel."  When Jesus Himself says that a certain set period of "time" has come to its fulfillment, it is best to take notice. 

The first miracle which Jesus performed at this time was in Cana of the region of Galilee.  This was the third day after John had specifically identified Christ as the Lamb of God which John had baptized earlier some time before that.  "Not many days" of Jesus dwelling in Capernaum after that miracle in Cana (John 2:12),  Jesus attended the first Passover of His ministry period.  That is when the Jews made their statement that "forty-six years was this temple in building..." (which would have been said in AD 30, 46 years after Herod began temple renovations in 17 BC).   

Christ also took advantage of his speaking in the Nazareth synagogue to announce that the very first year of Daniel's 70th week had begun.  After reading the Isaiah 61 prophecy about "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me..." and all the attending blessings that the ministry of the One having the Spirit would entail, including "the acceptable YEAR OF THE LORD", Christ then announced to His audience that "THIS DAY is this scripture fulfilled in your ears".  This means the "YEAR OF THE LORD" (the coming of Messiah the Prince) was then fulfilled for those listening to Christ at that moment.   

It is cross-referencing all these accounts and scripture texts that leads me to believe the AD 33 year to be correct for the crucifixion of Christ, in spite of the modern-day charts disagreeing with a Wednesday evening, 3 days / 3 nights burial of Christ in AD 33. 

Hi Amo,

The "time of the end" or the "last days" of course began with the entrance of the incarnate Christ's during His earthly ministry.  We agree on that.  However, this "time of the end" is not the "end of time" (which is a phrase that never appears in scripture).  The END was going to be the end of Israel as God's "holy people" which He had established as a nation in the era of the Exodus.  Even before the nation of Israel was about to enter Canaan, the aging Moses taught them a song to sing in Deuteronomy 32:1-43 which would be a witness against them in "their latter END", when evil would befall them in "the latter days" as a people (Deut. 32:29, Deut 31:29). 

"For the Lord shall judge His people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left." (Deut. 32:36).  In this song of Moses, God promised that "I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.  I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh..."  This was the "days of vengeance" predicted in advance.  It was the same warning of coming vengeance which Christ gave to His own generation for rejecting Himself as their promised Messiah.

As for the "harvest" by the angels as a bodily resurrection, that "harvest" Christ spoke of in the parable was going to take place at "the completion of the AGE (aionos) - not the so-called "end of the WORLD" (which would use the oikoumene or kosmos term).  This has been mistranslated by the JKV, to the confusion of those like yourself who think this particular harvest Christ was discussing will come at the close of fallen man's history on the planet. 

There is more than one "church" age, by the way.  Paul in Ephesians 3:21 said, 'Unto Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout ALL AGES, world without end.  Amen."  The word "ALL" indicates at least three or even more "church" ages under consideration in this verse.  It also shows that this planet is not destined for annihilation - even if each of those particular church ages have a concluding point. 

As for the gospel being preached "in all the world" before the end came - Paul already announced that this had occurred in his days.  The gospel back then Paul said "...was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister..." (Colossians 1:23).  Also in Colossians 1:6, Paul said of the truth of the gospel, "Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit..."

So, that gospel was taken into all the world in those days before "the completion of the age", and the bodily resurrection in AD 70.  And as you have said, the gospel continues to go forth into all the world, and it will again "fill the earth" before the third coming of Christ Jesus at the last, 3rd resurrection.

There will be no final global Beast to fight against.  I don't "reject" or "fight against" this prophecy.  Along with Daniel, John, and Christ, I agree that all three Beasts would experience their destruction - in John's days - not our future.  Christ's stone kingdom is the one kingdom left standing forever, once that rock cut without hands crushed and turned to dust the power behind all those former world empires.  No other world empire has ever, or will ever, usurp and take the place of Christ's growing stone kingdom since AD 70.  To say otherwise is to "reject" and to "fight against" the superiority of Christ's kingdom and reign. 

As for the destruction of the nation of Israel, God promised in Isaiah 65:11-15 that for those that forsook the Lord among the nation, "The Lord God shall SLAY THEE, and call his servants by another name."  They would be "numbered to the sword" and "bow down to the slaughter" because of their disobedience.  To "shatter the power of the holy people" as Daniel 12:7 said would be accomplished within 3-1/2 years, this was to destroy Israel's power to call themselves the sons of God.  Those that DID receive Him, to THEM gave He power to become the sons of God, even to those that believed in His name.  Those is Israel who did NOT receive Him when Christ was manifested to them as the Messiah, lost that power to call themselves the sons of God.   

Also, the temple at Jerusalem was called "the sanctuary of STRENGTH" in Daniel 11:31.  This stronghold was torn down to the last stone in AD 70.  The Jews who considered the physical temple to be the focus of all Judaism would lose that "sanctuary of strength" by the close of AD 70.   Once the power of the nation represented by that physical temple structure was demolished completely, the power of Israel to call themselves the "holy people" was also demolished in a very obvious physical demonstration to the surrounding nations.

I see, Amo, that you have fallen into the "archangel Michael is Jesus Christ" error. Michael was only "ONE of the chief princes", in Daniel 10:13, meaning there were other "chief princes" on the same authority level as Michael.  This is not true of Jesus Christ, who "has been given a name that is above every name." 

And regarding the Protestant Reformers who considered the papacy to be the Antichrist, they were only laboring under their own impressions due to their then-present persecution by the Catholic church.  Unfortunately, they did not pay attention to the time-relevant terms that 1 John 2:18-19 used to describe the many antichrists that were present back in the first-century.  The rise to power of one of them would last only briefly until God destroyed him almost as soon as he came into power.   The Reformers were doing their best with the knowledge they had at the time, but they were incorrect on the identity of this relatively minor Antichrist character in the drama of those first-century end times.  Just like them, Amo, you have inflated the level of importance that this single, wicked Antichrist character would achieve.  You have turned this character into something virtually indestructible and larger than life in its global influence, and the scriptures do not do this.

The Antichrist character was murdered in AD 66 after about two weeks of achieving the Zealot leadership and presenting himself as "king of the Jews" in Jerusalem's temple.  His rise to power and his destruction was only a mile-marker sign post that alerted the believers that the gathering together of the resurrected saints was soon to come after that.  Christ had already warned the believers to flee from Judea and Jerusalem when they saw those Zealot and Roman armies come to surround Jerusalem in AD 66 - we have records of how many believers did do just that in AD 66, and saved themselves from experiencing all the horrors of AD 66-70 in Jerusalem and Judea. 

Unfortunately, the Reformers did not read their history books and compare them to what scripture predicted that this Antichrist character would do before he was destroyed.  In neglecting to do this, they only ended up leading others like yourself astray.  Do I care that it was a Jesuit from the Catholic church who tried to do damage control from this teaching by the Reformers?  Not really.  Yes, I know that the Jesuits had their own selfish motives for trying to prove the Reformers wrong on this point of the papacy being the Antichrist, but that does not make their Preterist statements necessarily wrong. 

Let me ask you, and also Rella, a question: If Catholicism believes and teaches the virgin birth, should we reject the doctrine of the virgin birth because it is taught by a Catholic?  No, because the scripture teaches this as a fact.  Then if Preterist style teaching was also brought up by a Catholic Jesuit, does that make it automatically wrong?  No, it doesn't, if we are faithfully relying on the scripture's statements, and they lead in that direction.   

I'll agree with even a donkey that utters gospel truth, if what that donkey says comes straight from God's words.   Hey, I even believe what the devils said about Christ's identity.  "I know thee who thou art - the Holy One of God", they said.  Should I say this statement from the devils was absolutely wrong, just because of its source? 

There will be no "final persecuting beast of biblical prophecy" (which you are expecting for our future), because, long ago, the power behind all those beast kingdoms has already been simultaneously crushed to dust blowing on the wind (as Daniel 2:35 predicted).The power behind these destroyed beast kingdoms has been replaced by the growth of Christ's stone kingdom, which is incrementally increasing in this world at present.  You, Amo, are part of that stone kingdom, as am I, since we are called those "living stones" built upon the "chief cornerstone" which is Christ.

First, you are incorrectly applying Daniel's prophecy concerning the vision of the great image composed of different metals in Daniel 2, to Daniel's vision concerning the four beasts of Daniel seven. While these prophecies do address the same four kingdoms and beyond to the end of this world, more details which refute your above interpretation are revealed in the vision of Daniel seven. This according to the biblical principle of repetition and enlargement, very often associated with biblical prophecy in particular.

The kingdom of God that was set up during the days of the kings of Daniel 2, was of course the Church of Christ set up by the power of the gospel of the kingdom of God. Preached by our Lord Jesus Christ, and empowered by the Holy Spirit of God, unto conviction and conversion into the faith. This kingdom was and is to remain a spiritual kingdom within this world, until the return of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, at which time God's people will be delivered from death, while this world and its false kingdoms and religions will be destroyed. The new heavens and new earth will then be created, where the saved will dwell forever.

This is the teaching of holy scripture, and the testimony of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ when here on earth as one of us unto our salvation. Christ and His apostles warned the Church of the present and future dangers they did and would face until the second coming of our Lord. Which are prophetically addressed in the book of Revelation, and the three more beasts of biblical prophecy revealed there as well, making a total of seven biblical beasts of prophecy. All of which your Jesuit inspired interpretations of prophecy deny and war against in line with the exact intent of the Jesuits to do so. This because the prophecies themselves were and are directly connected to the papacy whom the Jesuits once served, but whom the papacy itself now serves. Which testimony the Protestant Reformers also gave concerning the papacy, who persecuted and killed them for doing so. Whose testimony you also reject in favor of Jesuit inspired interpretations of prophecy produced by them in the Counter Reformation. So be it.

Christ's kingdom having once been established in this world, will continue forever, and eventually grow into God's holy mountain when the new heaven and new earth are created. Just not according to the timing or Jesuit inspired interpretations you choose to believe and preach.

Joe 3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land. 3 And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink. 4 Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts of Palestine? will ye render me a recompence? and if ye recompense me, swiftly and speedily will I return your recompence upon your own head; 5 Because ye have taken my silver and my gold, and have carried into your temples my goodly pleasant things: 6 The children also of Judah and the children of Jerusalem have ye sold unto the Grecians, that ye might remove them far from their border. 7 Behold, I will raise them out of the place whither ye have sold them, and will return your recompence upon your own head: 8 And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the LORD hath spoken it. 9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: 10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong. 11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD. 12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great. 14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. 15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. 16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. 17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more. 18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim. 19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land. 20 But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation. 21 For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion.

The Harvest of the Earth

Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

The New Heaven and the New Earth

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The New Jerusalem

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. 16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. 18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. 19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; 20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass. 22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

: 3 Resurrections  Sun May 07, 2023 - 15:42:28
Hi Amo,

The "time of the end" or the "last days" of course began with the entrance of the incarnate Christ's during His earthly ministry.  We agree on that.  However, this "time of the end" is not the "end of time" (which is a phrase that never appears in scripture).  The END was going to be the end of Israel as God's "holy people" which He had established as a nation in the era of the Exodus.  Even before the nation of Israel was about to enter Canaan, the aging Moses taught them a song to sing in Deuteronomy 32:1-43 which would be a witness against them in "their latter END", when evil would befall them in "the latter days" as a people (Deut. 32:29, Deut 31:29). 

"For the Lord shall judge His people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left." (Deut. 32:36).  In this song of Moses, God promised that "I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.  I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh..."  This was the "days of vengeance" predicted in advance.  It was the same warning of coming vengeance which Christ gave to His own generation for rejecting Himself as their promised Messiah.

As for the "harvest" by the angels as a bodily resurrection, that "harvest" Christ spoke of in the parable was going to take place at "the completion of the AGE (aionos) - not the so-called "end of the WORLD" (which would use the oikoumene or kosmos term).  This has been mistranslated by the JKV, to the confusion of those like yourself who think this particular harvest Christ was discussing will come at the close of fallen man's history on the planet. 

There is more than one "church" age, by the way.  Paul in Ephesians 3:21 said, 'Unto Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout ALL AGES, world without end.  Amen."  The word "ALL" indicates at least three or even more "church" ages under consideration in this verse.  It also shows that this planet is not destined for annihilation - even if each of those particular church ages have a concluding point. 

As for the gospel being preached "in all the world" before the end came - Paul already announced that this had occurred in his days.  The gospel back then Paul said "...was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister..." (Colossians 1:23).  Also in Colossians 1:6, Paul said of the truth of the gospel, "Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit..."

So, that gospel was taken into all the world in those days before "the completion of the age", and the bodily resurrection in AD 70.  And as you have said, the gospel continues to go forth into all the world, and it will again "fill the earth" before the third coming of Christ Jesus at the last, 3rd resurrection.

There will be no final global Beast to fight against.  I don't "reject" or "fight against" this prophecy.  Along with Daniel, John, and Christ, I agree that all three Beasts would experience their destruction - in John's days - not our future.  Christ's stone kingdom is the one kingdom left standing forever, once that rock cut without hands crushed and turned to dust the power behind all those former world empires.  No other world empire has ever, or will ever, usurp and take the place of Christ's growing stone kingdom since AD 70.  To say otherwise is to "reject" and to "fight against" the superiority of Christ's kingdom and reign. 

As for the destruction of the nation of Israel, God promised in Isaiah 65:11-15 that for those that forsook the Lord among the nation, "The Lord God shall SLAY THEE, and call his servants by another name."  They would be "numbered to the sword" and "bow down to the slaughter" because of their disobedience.  To "shatter the power of the holy people" as Daniel 12:7 said would be accomplished within 3-1/2 years, this was to destroy Israel's power to call themselves the sons of God.  Those that DID receive Him, to THEM gave He power to become the sons of God, even to those that believed in His name.  Those is Israel who did NOT receive Him when Christ was manifested to them as the Messiah, lost that power to call themselves the sons of God.   

Also, the temple at Jerusalem was called "the sanctuary of STRENGTH" in Daniel 11:31.  This stronghold was torn down to the last stone in AD 70.  The Jews who considered the physical temple to be the focus of all Judaism would lose that "sanctuary of strength" by the close of AD 70.   Once the power of the nation represented by that physical temple structure was demolished completely, the power of Israel to call themselves the "holy people" was also demolished in a very obvious physical demonstration to the surrounding nations.

I see, Amo, that you have fallen into the "archangel Michael is Jesus Christ" error. Michael was only "ONE of the chief princes", in Daniel 10:13, meaning there were other "chief princes" on the same authority level as Michael.  This is not true of Jesus Christ, who "has been given a name that is above every name." 

And regarding the Protestant Reformers who considered the papacy to be the Antichrist, they were only laboring under their own impressions due to their then-present persecution by the Catholic church.  Unfortunately, they did not pay attention to the time-relevant terms that 1 John 2:18-19 used to describe the many antichrists that were present back in the first-century.  The rise to power of one of them would last only briefly until God destroyed him almost as soon as he came into power.   The Reformers were doing their best with the knowledge they had at the time, but they were incorrect on the identity of this relatively minor Antichrist character in the drama of those first-century end times.  Just like them, Amo, you have inflated the level of importance that this single, wicked Antichrist character would achieve.  You have turned this character into something virtually indestructible and larger than life in its global influence, and the scriptures do not do this.

The Antichrist character was murdered in AD 66 after about two weeks of achieving the Zealot leadership and presenting himself as "king of the Jews" in Jerusalem's temple.  His rise to power and his destruction was only a mile-marker sign post that alerted the believers that the gathering together of the resurrected saints was soon to come after that.  Christ had already warned the believers to flee from Judea and Jerusalem when they saw those Zealot and Roman armies come to surround Jerusalem in AD 66 - we have records of how many believers did do just that in AD 66, and saved themselves from experiencing all the horrors of AD 66-70 in Jerusalem and Judea. 

Unfortunately, the Reformers did not read their history books and compare them to what scripture predicted that this Antichrist character would do before he was destroyed.  In neglecting to do this, they only ended up leading others like yourself astray.  Do I care that it was a Jesuit from the Catholic church who tried to do damage control from this teaching by the Reformers?  Not really.  Yes, I know that the Jesuits had their own selfish motives for trying to prove the Reformers wrong on this point of the papacy being the Antichrist, but that does not make their Preterist statements necessarily wrong. 

Let me ask you, and also Rella, a question: If Catholicism believes and teaches the virgin birth, should we reject the doctrine of the virgin birth because it is taught by a Catholic?  No, because the scripture teaches this as a fact.  Then if Preterist style teaching was also brought up by a Catholic Jesuit, does that make it automatically wrong?  No, it doesn't, if we are faithfully relying on the scripture's statements, and they lead in that direction.   

I'll agree with even a donkey that utters gospel truth, if what that donkey says comes straight from God's words.   Hey, I even believe what the devils said about Christ's identity.  "I know thee who thou art - the Holy One of God", they said.  Should I say this statement from the devils was absolutely wrong, just because of its source?

Many errors in the above, and of course denial of plain, simple, and conclusive statements of our Lord Jesus Christ and his prophets and apostles as well. Which I will address later. After I finish addressing your previous post to me. Those who deny the global flood and first destruction of this world, employ your above argument about the word world as well. Context is the determining factor concerning its meaning, not personal fancy. 

"Personal fancy"?  That's not true, Amo.  I am quoting from a multitude of translations that also translate "aionos" as AGE and not "world" (twenty-seven of them that I can count).  Christ spoke about the harvest at "the consummation of this AGE" - not the end of the globe, which will abide forever. If you are a KJV-only adherent, then you will likewise mistranslate "aionos" as "world", just as they mistakenly did.  But even the New King James Version also saw the error of this and corrected the KJV by translating Matthew 13:40 as "so it will be at the end of this AGE."

I have no idea exactly what "Jesuit" material you think I have read to arrive at my current eschatological understanding.  I have read very few Preterist authors, and of those I have read, I differ with their position on many things.  I've never read a Catholic authored article that I am aware of.  Scripture itself is my tool to understand the book itself.   I use the Interlinear quite a bit as well as the Septuagint, since that was quoted by the NT authors.

I have never denied the statements of Christ, the prophets, or the Apostles; just those who are interpreting them incorrectly.  So your accusation that I am doing so is false. 

For instance, you have stated that Daniel 2's statue of world empires as well as Daniel 7's 4 beasts will last until the end of the world.  This is not true.  It's not even logical.  The stone kingdom which destroyed the power behind all of those world empires and turned them to dust is taking time after crushing them to dust to incrementally grow and  fill the whole world.  This incremental, steady growth over time could not possibly take place instantaneously at the end of the world, as you suppose.  That wouldn't allow any time for that incremental, steady growth to take place.

Daniel's prophecies have nothing whatever to do with the papacy, which developed long after the power behind all those beasts was destroyed in AD 70.   If you think the papacy is part of the beasts which Daniel was referring to, then this is your own delusion.   Mystery Babylon in Revelation 17 also has nothing to do with the papacy or Catholicism.  This is another delusion of yours.  Mystery Babylon was Old Jerusalem, as can be proved from multiple scripture passages, both OT and NT.

The Revelation 14:14 sickle harvest you mentioned was Christ resurrecting the Matthew 27:52-53 saints out of the earth.  It's a past fulfillment from back in AD 33.  Not a future harvest. Christ Himself alone harvested those Matthew 27:52-53 individuals, with no assistance from the angels, which angelic assistance would occur in the next, second bodily resurrection in AD 70 at Christ's second coming to the Mount of Olives.

Perhaps you did not get the memo, but we are currently dwelling in the New Jerusalem, as Hebrews 12:22 said was a reality even back then. 
You also apparently did not get the memo that the New Heavens and the New Earth conditions are in place now, and have been ever since AD 70.  Of course you will probably disagree, but I expect that from someone who is not taking the actual, specific terms of the NHNE into account.  Many of them are conditions that could not possibly take place in the eternal state. 

And I have read absolutely no "Jesuit" material to arrive at these conclusions.  Just scripture itself, reading it by myself, and paying very, very careful attention to the language.  If the Reformers didn't see it this way, then at least they know better by now in glory.  The library collection in my home is replete with the Reformers' writings, and it is sad that they did not catch the truth of these things back then.  They were not infallible, you know.  And since we have so much better and faster access to study scriptural materials now, there is no reason for anyone to remain ignorant of eschatology themes. 

: 3 Resurrections  Sun May 07, 2023 - 13:39:50
Hey again Rella,

I should emphasize again that I am not in agreement with all points made by the Christian Gedge link I gave you.  On another website where I'm a member, I have briefly engaged with this gentleman, trying to get him to consider a revision for his dates for the no-gap 70 "weeks" of years from start to finish, based on the archaeological evidence we currently have.  However, once someone has written a book about their own view, they are pretty invested in maintaining that view without altering it.   The same is true for Dr. Gentry, who also dismisses my points for the same reason when I have tried to point out on his website some problems with his eschatology views. 

You wrote above that it was difficult to pinpoint the actual time between Christ's baptism and the beginning of His public ministry - that it was not as clear-cut as one might expect.  Perhaps not, but the gospel accounts do describe a time gap between these two events, and definitely indicate that the beginning of Christ's public ministry did NOT start with His baptism in AD 26/27.

The time gap between Christ's baptism and His public ministry is there in the gospels, which can be compared with each other for the proper chronology.  A long time gap is found between Matthew 4:11 (when Satan ended tempting Christ 40 days after His baptism) and later on in Matthew 4:12 (when John was cast into prison).  The scripture says that once Christ heard of John's imprisonment, that He then went successively into Galilee, Nazareth, and Capernaum for His ministry.  Matthew 4:17 says about John's imprisonment that "From that time, Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."  "From that time" after John was imprisoned, the beginning year of Daniel's 70th "week" of "Messiah the Prince" and His ministry of 3-1/2 years was launched. 

John Himself said that Christ was coming AFTER his own ministry had ended.  "He that cometh AFTER me is mightier than I..."  And we know that John's ministry of baptizing continued in the years immediately after Christ's baptism in AD 26/27, until John had "fulfilled his course" (Acts 13:25) and was imprisoned in AD 30.   

This Matthew 4:17 verse above is a duplicate of the Mark 1:15 verse - a quote of Jesus, which tells us that Jesus came into Galilee "after that John was put in prison"  It was then that Christ began preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel."  When Jesus Himself says that a certain set period of "time" has come to its fulfillment, it is best to take notice. 

The first miracle which Jesus performed at this time was in Cana of the region of Galilee.  This was the third day after John had specifically identified Christ as the Lamb of God which John had baptized earlier some time before that.  "Not many days" of Jesus dwelling in Capernaum after that miracle in Cana (John 2:12),  Jesus attended the first Passover of His ministry period.  That is when the Jews made their statement that "forty-six years was this temple in building..." (which would have been said in AD 30, 46 years after Herod began temple renovations in 17 BC).   

Christ also took advantage of his speaking in the Nazareth synagogue to announce that the very first year of Daniel's 70th week had begun.  After reading the Isaiah 61 prophecy about "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me..." and all the attending blessings that the ministry of the One having the Spirit would entail, including "the acceptable YEAR OF THE LORD", Christ then announced to His audience that "THIS DAY is this scripture fulfilled in your ears".  This means the "YEAR OF THE LORD" (the coming of Messiah the Prince) was then fulfilled for those listening to Christ at that moment.   

It is cross-referencing all these accounts and scripture texts that leads me to believe the AD 33 year to be correct for the crucifixion of Christ, in spite of the modern-day charts disagreeing with a Wednesday evening, 3 days / 3 nights burial of Christ in AD 33.

Sorry, 3R...

I just do not agree that your understanding of when Jesus began his ministry after a long gap is correct.

I do agree with the statement, from my reply above, "    The timeline of Jesus Ministry and His public life begins with the baptism of Jesus by John the Baptist in the fifteenth year of Roman Emperor Tiberius according to Luke 3:1.

I also should have included....from " https://www.thesacredcalendar.com/downloads/timeline-of-jesus-ministry/" ( see above)

I had posted this part...

First Year of Public Ministry
     After His baptism by John the Baptist, Jesus is tempted in the wilderness for 40 days and 40 nights without water or food.
     After coming out the wilderness, Jesus begins calling His Disciples saying "Come, follow me, and I will make you fishers of
     men" (Matthew 4:19). A sample of some of the first year events of the public life and ministry of Jesus includes the
     following:

I should have continued with the rest of what followed.  All done in the first year.

    1. Jesus turns water to wine (John 2:1-11).
    2. Jesus began teaching in Synagogues in Galilee (Luke 4:14-15.
    3. Jesus goes to Jerusalem for 27 AD Passover (John 2:13).
    4. Jesus cleanses the Temple for the first time. He would do it again three years later a few days before He is crucified in 30
        AD (John 2:14-17).
     5.Nicodemus comes to Jesus at night (John 3:1-21).
     6.John the Baptist tells his Disciples Jesus is more important than he is: "he must increase, I must decrease": (John 3: 27-
        36).
     7. Jesus speaks to the Samaritan woman at the well four months before wheat harvest. This famous event at Jacob's Well is
        the first time that Jesus announces he is the expected 'Messiah' (John 4:5-38).
     8. King Herod puts John the Baptist in prison (Matthew 14:3-4; Mark 6:17-20; Luke 3:18-20).
     9 Jesus heals nobleman's son (John 4:46-54).
    10. Jesus rejected in Nazareth teaching from Isaiah. Jesus teaching reveals he is the Messiah (Luke 4:16-30).
    11. Jesus casts out demons in Capernum (Mark 1:21-28; Luke 4:31-37).
    12. Jesus healing miracles stories spread through Galilee (Matthew 4:23-25; Mark 1:39; Luke 4:33-44).

NOW: YOU likely WONT read all of he following but you should look at it and the length of what is posted as this is under the heading

NOTE: THIS IS ONLY THE FIRST YEAR OF PUBLIC MINISTRY. as dated. Look at the link for the second.

Dated Chronology First Year Public Ministry

Matthew 3:1-12; Mark 1:1-8; Luke 3:1-20; John 1:19-28

John the Baptist Begins Preaching Ministry at Thirty

This is the thirtieth birthday of John the Baptist.

Type of dated event: ESDIS

BR Calendar Day Number: 186

BR Years from Creation: 4139

BR: Sunday, April 20 — Iyar 3, 26 AD

GH: Sunday, March 29 — Nisan 7, 26 AD

Julian Day Number: 1730643.75

Matthew 3:13-17; Mark 1:9-11; Luke 3:21-22; John 1:32-34

The Baptism of Jesus at the River Jordon

The baptism of Jesus happens exactly 480 years after the completion of the Jerusalem Wall (Nehemiah 6:15). This event also occurs 42 days before the 30th birthday of Jesus in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius.

Type of dated event: PCD

BR Calendar Day Number: 326

BR Years from Creation: 4139

BR: Sunday, September 8 — Elul 25, 26 AD

GH: Sunday, August 16 — Av 29, 26 AD

Julian Day Number: 1730783.75

Matthew 4:1-11; Mark 1:12-13; Luke 4:1-2

Night Number One of Forty in the Wilderness

Type of dated event: PCD

BR Calendar Day Number: 327

BR Years from Creation: 4139

BR: Monday, September 9 — Elul 26, 26 AD

GH: Monday, August 17 — Av 30, 26 AD

Julian Day Number: 1730784.75

Matthew 4:3-4; Luke 4:3-4

Satan Temps Jesus to Turn Stones to Bread

Jesus quotes Deuteronomy 8:3.

Type of dated event: EST

BR Calendar Day Number: 338

BR Years from Creation: 4139

BR: Friday, September 20 — Tishri 8, 26 AD

GH: Friday, August 28 — Elul 11, 26 AD

Julian Day Number: 1730795.75

Matthew 4:5-7; Luke 4:9-12

Satan Temps Jesus to Jump from Top of Temple

Satan quotes Psalms 91:11-12. Jesus quotes Deuteronomy 6:16. Moses raises question of "tempting the Lord" in Exodus 17:2.

Type of dated event: EST

BR Calendar Day Number: 350

BR Years from Creation: 4139

BR: Wednesday, October 2 — Tishri 20, 26 AD

GH: Wednesday, September 9 — Elul 23, 26 AD

Julian Day Number: 1730807.75

Matthew 4:8-11; Luke 4:5-8

Satan Temps Jesus with World's Kingdoms

Jesus quotes from Deuteronomy 6:13 and Exodus 34:14. Jesus commands Satan in the same manner in Matthew 16:23 and Mark 8:33.

Type of dated event: EST

BR Calendar Day Number: 362

BR Years from Creation: 4139

BR: Monday, October 14 — Creation Day 1, 26 AD

GH: Monday, September 21 — Tishri 6, 26 AD

Julian Day Number: 1730819.75

Matthew 4:11; Luke 4:13

Satan Temporarily Departs After Temptations

Type of dated event: EST

BR Calendar Day Number: 362

BR Years from Creation: 4139

BR: Monday, October 14 — Creation Day 1, 26 AD

GH: Monday, September 21 — Tishri 6, 26 AD

Julian Day Number: 1730819.75

Matthew 4:11; Mark 1:13

Angels Minister to Jesus after Satan Departs

Type of dated event: EST

BR Calendar Day Number: 362

BR Years from Creation: 4139

BR: Monday, October 14 — Creation Day 1, 26 AD

GH: Monday, September 21 — Tishri 6, 26 AD

Julian Day Number: 1730819.75

Luke 4:2, 14

Jesus Fasts Forty Days and Returns to Galilee

Moses also fasted forty days as recorded in Deuteronomy 9:9, 18. Elijah fasted for forty days, according to I Kings 19:8.

Type of dated event: PCD

BR Calendar Day Number: 2

BR Years from Creation: 4140

BR: Friday, October 18 — Creation Day 5, 26 AD

GH: Friday, September 25 — Tishri 10, 26 AD

Julian Day Number: 1730823.75

Luke 3:1, 23

Jesus Turns Thirty Years Old in Fifteenth Year of Tiberius

The thirtieth birthday of Jesus occurs two days after he returns from the Temptations in the Wilderness. This event is in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberias.

Type of dated event: PCD

BR Calendar Day Number: 4

BR Years from Creation: 4140

BR: Sunday, October 20 — Creation Day 7, 26 AD

GH: Sunday, September 27 — Tishri 12, 26 AD

Julian Day Number: 1730825.75

John 1:29-34

John Tells About Events at the Baptism of Jesus

Type of dated event: EST

BR Calendar Day Number: 4

BR Years from Creation: 4140

BR: Sunday, October 20 — Creation Day 7, 26 AD

GH: Sunday, September 27 — Tishri 12, 26 AD

Julian Day Number: 1730825.75

John 1:35-36

John the Baptist Talks to Two of His Disciples

Type of dated event: EST

BR Calendar Day Number: 5

BR Years from Creation: 4140

BR: Monday, October 21 — Heshvan 1, 26 AD

GH: Monday, September 28 — Tishri 13, 26 AD

Julian Day Number: 1730826.75

John 1:37-39

Andrew and James Leave John and Follow Jesus

"Now it was about the tenth hour" means it was about 4:00 p.m. in the afternoon.

Type of dated event: EST

BR Calendar Day Number: 5

BR Years from Creation: 4140

BR: Monday, October 21 — Heshvan 1, 26 AD

GH: Monday, September 28 — Tishri 13, 26 AD

Julian Day Number: 1730826.75

John 1:40-42

Andrew Introduces Jesus to Simon Peter

Jesus renames Peter as Cephas which means "a stone."

Type of dated event: EST

BR Calendar Day Number: 5

BR Years from Creation: 4140

BR: Monday, October 21 — Heshvan 1, 26 AD

GH: Monday, September 28 — Tishri 13, 26 AD

Julian Day Number: 1730826.75

John 1:43-44

Jesus Instructs Philip to "Follow Me"

Type of dated event: EST

BR Calendar Day Number: 6

BR Years from Creation: 4140

BR: Tuesday, October 22 — Heshvan 2, 26 AD

GH: Tuesday, September 29 — Tishri 14, 26 AD

Julian Day Number: 1730827.75

John 1:45-51

Philip Introduces Nathanael to Jesus

Type of dated event: EST

BR Calendar Day Number: 6

BR Years from Creation: 4140

BR: Tuesday, October 22 — Heshvan 2, 26 AD

GH: Tuesday, September 29 — Tishri 14, 26 AD

Julian Day Number: 1730827.75

John 2:1-11

Jesus Turns Water to Wine in Cana

"On the third day" may refer to the third day of the wedding feast or the number of days the disciples were following Jesus. It may have been Heshvan 3 on the Hebrew calendar. The wedding may be connected to an invitation from Nathanael since he was from Cana, according to John 21:2.

Type of dated event: EST

BR Calendar Day Number: 7

BR Years from Creation: 4140

BR: Wednesday, October 23 — Heshvan 3, 26 AD

GH: Wednesday, September 30 — Tishri 15, 26 AD

Julian Day Number: 1730828.75

John 2:12

Jesus Goes to Capernaum with Family/Disciples

Type of dated event: EST

BR Calendar Day Number: 14

BR Years from Creation: 4140

BR: Wednesday, October 30 — Heshvan 10, 26 AD

GH: Wednesday, October 7 — Tishri 22, 26 AD

Julian Day Number: 1730835.75

Luke 4:14-15

Jesus Began Teaching in Synagogues in Galilee

Type of dated event: EST

BR Calendar Day Number: 26

BR Years from Creation: 4140

BR: Monday, November 11 — Heshvan 22, 26 AD

GH: Monday, October 19 — Creation Day 3, 26 AD

Julian Day Number: 1730847.75

John 2:13

Jesus Goes to Jerusalem For 27 AD Passover

This is the first of four Passover's in the Public Ministry of Jesus.

Type of dated event: EST

BR Calendar Day Number: 172

BR Years from Creation: 4140

BR: Sunday, April 6 — Nisan 19, 27 AD

GH: Sunday, March 14 — Adar 22, 27 AD

Julian Day Number: 1730993.75

John 2:13

Nisan 10-Start of Passover Feast in 27 AD

Type of dated event: SDIS

BR Calendar Day Number: 190

BR Years from Creation: 4140

BR: Thursday, April 24 — Iyar 7, 27 AD

GH: Thursday, April 1 — Nisan 10, 27 AD

Julian Day Number: 1731011.75

John 2:14-17

Nisan 11-First Time Jesus Cleanses the Temple

Jesus would cleanse the Temple again three years later on Nisan 11 in 30 AD during Easter Week. The second cleansing of the Temple in 30 AD is recorded in Matthew 21:12-13, Mark 11:15-17, and Luke 19:45-46.

Type of dated event: ESDIS

BR Calendar Day Number: 191

BR Years from Creation: 4140

BR: Friday, April 25 — Iyar 8, 27 AD

GH: Friday, April 2 — Nisan 11, 27 AD

Julian Day Number: 1731012.75

John 2:18-22

Jews Ask For Sign of His "Cleansing" Authority

This event occurs forty-six years after the start of the building of the Herodian Temple in 19 BC. Jesus' statement, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up", would be misquoted and used against him at his trial in Matthew 26:61 and Mark 14:58.

Type of dated event: ESDIS

BR Calendar Day Number: 191

BR Years from Creation: 4140

BR: Friday, April 25 — Iyar 8, 27 AD

GH: Friday, April 2 — Nisan 11, 27 AD

Julian Day Number: 1731012.75

John 2:13

Nisan 14 Passover in 27 AD

Nisan 14 Passover is the solar date from Creation (SDFC) when we look at events in the New Testament. Now we are now dealing with a solar calendar. Nisan 14 always falls on April 5 on the Gregorian calendar in a non-leap year. Nisan 14 falls on April 3 in a leap year.

Type of dated event: Sol-Passover

BR Calendar Day Number: 194

BR Years from Creation: 4140

BR: Monday, April 28 — Iyar 11, 27 AD

GH: Monday, April 5 — Nisan 14, 27 AD

Julian Day Number: 1731015.75

John 3:1-21

Nicodemus Comes to Jesus at Night

Jesus teaches on the need to be "born again".

Type of dated event: EST

BR Calendar Day Number: 197

BR Years from Creation: 4140

BR: Thursday, May 1 — Iyar 14, 27 AD

GH: Thursday, April 8 — Nisan 17, 27 AD

Julian Day Number: 1731018.75

John 3:22-24

Jesus and Disciples Baptize in Judea

John the Baptist teaches close by in Aenon near Salim. At this point in the New Testament, John the Baptist is getting close to the time that he will be put in prison.

Type of dated event: EST

BR Calendar Day Number: 200

BR Years from Creation: 4140

BR: Sunday, May 4 — Iyar 17, 27 AD

GH: Sunday, April 11 — Nisan 20, 27 AD

Julian Day Number: 1731021.75

John 3:25

John's Disciples Discuss Purification with Jews

Type of dated event: EST

BR Calendar Day Number: 202

BR Years from Creation: 4140

BR: Tuesday, May 6 — Iyar 19, 27 AD

GH: Tuesday, April 13 — Nisan 22, 27 AD

Julian Day Number: 1731023.75

John 3:26

John's Disciples Discuss "Success" of Jesus' Baptizing

Type of dated event: EST

BR Calendar Day Number: 203

BR Years from Creation: 4140

BR: Wednesday, May 7 — Iyar 20, 27 AD

GH: Wednesday, April 14 — Nisan 23, 27 AD

Julian Day Number: 1731024.75

John 3:27-36

John Tells How Jesus is More Important Than Him

Type of dated event: EST

BR Calendar Day Number: 203

BR Years from Creation: 4140

BR: Wednesday, May 7 — Iyar 20, 27 AD

GH: Wednesday, April 14 — Nisan 23, 27 AD

Julian Day Number: 1731024.75

John 4:1-2

Pharisees Hear Jesus is baptizing More Than John

Type of dated event: EST

BR Calendar Day Number: 204

BR Years from Creation: 4140

BR: Thursday, May 8 — Iyar 21, 27 AD

GH: Thursday, April 15 — Nisan 24, 27 AD

Julian Day Number: 1731025.75

John 4:3-4

Jesus Departs for Galilee by Way of Samaria

Type of dated event: EST

BR Calendar Day Number: 204

BR Years from Creation: 4140

BR: Thursday, May 8 — Iyar 21, 27 AD

GH: Thursday, April 15 — Nisan 24, 27 AD

Julian Day Number: 1731025.75

John 4:5-6

Jesus and Disciples Arrive in Samaria

Type of dated event: EST

BR Calendar Day Number: 207

BR Years from Creation: 4140

BR: Sunday, May 11 — Iyar 24, 27 AD

GH: Sunday, April 18 — Nisan 27, 27 AD

Julian Day Number: 1731028.75

John 4:5-38

Jesus Speaks with Samaritan Woman at Jacob's well

Jesus meets with a Samaritan woman four months before the August wheat harvest, according to John 4:34. Notice the solar date of this event is mid-April.

Type of dated event: EST

BR Calendar Day Number: 207

BR Years from Creation: 4140

BR: Sunday, May 11 — Iyar 24, 27 AD

GH: Sunday, April 18 — Nisan 27, 27 AD

Julian Day Number: 1731028.75

John 4:39-42

Jesus Teaches in Samaria for Two Days

Type of dated event: EST

BR Calendar Day Number: 209

BR Years from Creation: 4140

BR: Tuesday, May 13 — Iyar 26, 27 AD

GH: Tuesday, April 20 — Nisan 29, 27 AD

Julian Day Number: 1731030.75

Matthew 14:3-4; Mark 6:17-20; Luke 3:18-20

Herod Puts John the Baptist in Prison

Type of dated event: EST

BR Calendar Day Number: 251

BR Years from Creation: 4140

BR: Tuesday, June 24 — Tammuz 9, 27 AD

GH: Tuesday, June 1 — Sivan 12, 27 AD

Julian Day Number: 1731072.75

Mark 1:14-15; Luke 4:14-15; John 4:45

Jesus is Welcomed in Galilee

Type of dated event: EST

BR Calendar Day Number: 264

BR Years from Creation: 4140

BR: Monday, July 7 — Tammuz 22, 27 AD

GH: Monday, June 14 — Sivan 25, 27 AD

Julian Day Number: 1731085.75

John 4:46-54

Jesus Heals a Nobleman's Son-Second Sign in Cana

A nobleman's son is healed in Capernaum while Jesus is in Cana.

Type of dated event: EST

BR Calendar Day Number: 267

BR Years from Creation: 4140

BR: Thursday, July 10 — Tammuz 25, 27 AD

GH: Thursday, June 17 — Sivan 25, 27 AD

Julian Day Number: 1731088.75

Matthew 4:18-22; Mark 1:16-20; Luke 5:1-11

Jesus Calls His First Disciples

Type of dated event: EST

BR Calendar Day Number: 299

BR Years from Creation: 4140

BR: Monday, August 12 — Av 28, 27 AD

GH: Monday, July 19 — Av 1, 27 AD

Julian Day Number: 1731120.75

Luke 4:16-30

Jesus Rejected in Nazareth Teaching From Isaiah

Type of dated event: EST

BR Calendar Day Number: 325

BR Years from Creation: 4140

BR: Saturday, September 7 — Elul 24, 27 AD

GH: Saturday, August 14 — Av 27, 27 AD

Julian Day Number: 1731146.75

Matthew 4:13-17; Luke 4:31

Jesus Returns to Teach in Capernaum

Type of dated event: EST

BR Calendar Day Number: 326

BR Years from Creation: 4140

BR: Sunday, September 8 — Elul 25, 27 AD

GH: Sunday, August 15 — Av 28, 27 AD

Julian Day Number: 1731147.75

Mark 1:21-28; Luke 4:31-37

Jesus Casts Out a Demon in Capernaum

Type of dated event: EST

BR Calendar Day Number: 360

BR Years from Creation: 4140

BR: Saturday, October 12 — Tishri 30, 27 AD

GH: Saturday, September 18 — Tishri 3, 27 AD

Julian Day Number: 1731181.75
[/size]

Hi Rella,

I do agree with one critical statement found in your link.  It says that 480 years after the wall was built in Jerusalem (as in Nehemiah 6:15), that Jesus was baptized just before His 30th birthday.  But this 480 years to Christ's baptism is NOT the required 483 years that Daniel predicted for Messiah the Prince to come, which would end the 69th "week" and begin the 70th "week".  Your link is mistaken that the 480th year at Christ's baptism fulfilled the beginning point of Daniel's prophetic 70th "week" .  It wasn't.  480 years is 3 years short of the actual 483 years until Messiah came on the scene for His public ministry.

The particular decree that was related to rebuilding Jerusalem's wall and the consequent finishing of that wall in 52 days of labor were both dated in the year 454 BC (the 20th year of Artaxerxes' reign. which started in 474 BC in a co-regency with his father).  Exactly 480 years after the Nehemiah decree in 454 BC, Christ was baptized (for which your link is correct).  Three years AFTER that baptism year resulted in the 483rd year - the end of the 69th "week" and the beginning of the 70th "week". 

If Christ did not begin His public ministry in the year AD 30 (3 years after His baptism), then He is a false Messiah, and is not the fulfillment of Daniel's 70 week prophecy.  His deity is at stake in this. 

: 3 Resurrections  Mon May 08, 2023 - 13:25:26
Hi Rella,

I do agree with one critical statement found in your link.  It says that 480 years after the wall was built in Jerusalem (as in Nehemiah 6:15), that Jesus was baptized just before His 30th birthday.  But this 480 years to Christ's baptism is NOT the required 483 years that Daniel predicted for Messiah the Prince to come, which would end the 69th "week" and begin the 70th "week".  Your link is mistaken that the 480th year at Christ's baptism fulfilled the beginning point of Daniel's prophetic 70th "week" .  It wasn't.  480 years is 3 years short of the actual 483 years until Messiah came on the scene for His public ministry.

The particular decree that was related to rebuilding Jerusalem's wall and the consequent finishing of that wall in 52 days of labor were both dated in the year 454 BC (the 20th year of Artaxerxes' reign. which started in 474 BC in a co-regency with his father).  Exactly 480 years after the Nehemiah decree in 454 BC, Christ was baptized (for which your link is correct).  Three years AFTER that baptism year resulted in the 483rd year - the end of the 69th "week" and the beginning of the 70th "week". 

If Christ did not begin His public ministry in the year AD 30 (3 years after His baptism), then He is a false Messiah, and is not the fulfillment of Daniel's 70 week prophecy.  His deity is at stake in this.

::doh::  ::frown::  ::lookaround:: ::rolling::

Well, I dont agree with you and many do not.

And the most important thing would be is why he would have waited so long??? Did he need to complete his studies?

Timing is everything... and 3 years was not needed.....

This kingdom of Christ which was promised to "fill the whole earth" in Daniel 2:35 does not necessarily mean that the entire world's civic organizations and governments will become identified as Christian. God gives His salvation to individuals, not corporations. Not all humanity is promised to become a child of God. Some are bastards, and not sons. Some are goats and not sheep. There will always be some "tares" in comparison to the majority of the "wheat" harvest.  For Christ's kingdom to "fill the earth" means that the knowledge or awareness of Christ's gospel will permeate the globe - not that all governments or people will universally become Christian.

It will take Christ's final return in the fall of 3033 to purge human evil out of this planet entirely.  God has already purged Satanic and demonic evil out of this world back in AD 70, and in the final return of Christ, the presence of humanity's evil will also come to an end by being utterly destroyed.

Seems like your above two paragraphs contradict each other, and scripture of course. In the first you say there will always be some tares, and in the second you speak of a complete end to evil. The two are mutually exclusive.

Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

The Final Judgment

Mat 25:21 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43  I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Why will you reject the plain, simple, conclusive statements of scripture, which identify the workings of the devil right up to the second coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ? Why will you twist and manipulate the word of God into a scenario which it simply does not depict anywhere, save in submission to your own speculations and surmizings?

The devil and the wicked shall be destroyed at Christ's second coming. Up until that time, not 70 AD, the devil and his minions will be at work deceiving the peoples and nations of this world. The wheat and tares of this world and all nations were not separated in 70 AD, with the tares being burned, and the wheat entering into eternal life. The falling away in the future which Paul refers to, cannot be concerning the Jews who rejected Jesus during his day, because that event was already behind the Church of Christ at that time. The events concerning the temple of God, could not be referring to the temple during Paul's days of preaching, because that temple was no longer the temple of God. Jesus had already pronounced that temple to be desolate of God's presence, and doomed to destruction. The curtain between the most holy and the holy had been torn asunder at Christ's death, signifying the end of that temples significance. And no man of sin, had set himself up within said temple, showing himself to be God before its destruction.

The New testament has many warnings about the guile and temptations of satan. Who are you to declare all such warnings as applicable only up until 70 AD, with no scriptural backup? Are you not playing directly into the evil one's hands, in doing such? Hear the words of the true prophets and apostles, to us all, and abandon your mistaken and dangerous ramblings.

Luk 8:9 And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be? 10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Eph 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. 26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: 27 Neither give place to the devil.

Eph 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. 11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; 15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

1Ti 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) 6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Jas 4:1 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? 2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. 3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts. 4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. 5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy? 6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. 7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. 11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. 13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Act 26:13 At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me. 14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. 16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; 17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Your false teachings make the above scriptural warnings and admonitions of none effect. They set all who believe you up, for satanic deception and ruin. If Satan is no longer, then all supernatural events must be of God. Therefore all who believe as you do, will attribute Satan's present and future supernatural delusions and or deceptions as either fake, or worse yet from God Himself. Either or leading any soul doing so, straight to destruction.

Lying Prophets

Jer 14:13 Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, the prophets say unto them, Ye shall not see the sword, neither shall ye have famine; but I will give you assured peace in this place. 14 Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart. 15 Therefore thus saith the LORD concerning the prophets that prophesy in my name, and I sent them not, yet they say, Sword and famine shall not be in this land; By sword and famine shall those prophets be consumed.

Be careful 3Res when handling the word of God, especially the prophetic word of God. If you are wrong, you will surely be consumed by that danger God's prophetic word warns against, which your teachings have denied. If the devil is truly defeated and gone as you teach, then all is well for you no doubt. If he is not, then you are most certainly his servant in teaching such, and will therefore most certainly share his fate as well. Please do prayerfully study this out thoroughly, and be very sure you are correct.

: Rella  Mon May 08, 2023 - 19:00:40
::doh::  ::frown::  ::lookaround:: ::rolling::

Well, I dont agree with you and many do not.

And the most important thing would be is why he would have waited so long??? Did he need to complete his studies?

Timing is everything... and 3 years was not needed.....

Why would Christ have waited so long to begin His public ministry? As you have said, it really wasn't that Jesus needed to "complete His studies".  My best guess as to the motives for that extended period prior to Christ beginning His public ministry (aside from exactly fulfilling the dated year of Daniel's 483rd year for His coming) is that scripture seems to have a pattern for a kind of novitiate period before an individual enters their full capacity of ministry. 

Take the disciples for instance.  They had a total of 3-1/2 years of Christ's teaching them before they were commissioned to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 

Take Paul's case also.  Didn't he spend 3 years in Arabia being taught by God before he began the full scope of his ministry?   

And what about Joseph in Egypt?  Aside from his service in Potiphar's house, Joseph spent more than 2-plus years of humiliating conditions in prison before Pharaoh raised him to power and granted Joseph the control over all Egypt to prepare during the 7 years of plenty for for the approaching 7 years of drought. 

And in the NT, any person wishing to go into the ministry is required to be "NOT A NOVICE", lest they fall into the same temptation of pride as the devil did.  That requires a kind of novitiate proving period for them to give ample testimony to all that they are justified in taking that role of service.  It's rather like we have an election process, but the presidential inauguration does not take place until later.  Or how we spend 4 years in high school before passing on to yet 4 years more of college, before yet another period of years for post-graduate study to specialize in a profession.   

The scripture rule seems to be "before honor is humility".  So, if Christ followed this same proscribed period of proving Himself to all before His full ministry began, a period of 3 years between His baptism and the beginning of His miraculous ministry at Cana would seem to follow the scripture pattern. 

Faith IN Christ or Faith in dates?

: Amo  Tue May 09, 2023 - 06:34:55
Seems like your above two paragraphs contradict each other, and scripture of course. In the first you say there will always be some tares, and in the second you speak of a complete end to evil. The two are mutually exclusive.

Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

The Final Judgment

Mat 25:21 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43  I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Why will you reject the plain, simple, conclusive statements of scripture, which identify the workings of the devil right up to the second coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ? Why will you twist and manipulate the word of God into a scenario which it simply does not depict anywhere, save in submission to your own speculations and surmizings?

The devil and the wicked shall be destroyed at Christ's second coming. Up until that time, not 70 AD, the devil and his minions will be at work deceiving the peoples and nations of this world. The wheat and tares of this world and all nations were not separated in 70 AD, with the tares being burned, and the wheat entering into eternal life. The falling away in the future which Paul refers to, cannot be concerning the Jews who rejected Jesus during his day, because that event was already behind the Church of Christ at that time. The events concerning the temple of God, could not be referring to the temple during Paul's days of preaching, because that temple was no longer the temple of God. Jesus had already pronounced that temple to be desolate of God's presence, and doomed to destruction. The curtain between the most holy and the holy had been torn asunder at Christ's death, signifying the end of that temples significance. And no man of sin, had set himself up within said temple, showing himself to be God before its destruction.

The New testament has many warnings about the guile and temptations of satan. Who are you to declare all such warnings as applicable only up until 70 AD, with no scriptural backup? Are you not playing directly into the evil one's hands, in doing such? Hear the words of the true prophets and apostles, to us all, and abandon your mistaken and dangerous ramblings.

Luk 8:9 And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be? 10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Eph 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. 26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: 27 Neither give place to the devil.

Eph 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. 11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; 15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

1Ti 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) 6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Jas 4:1 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? 2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. 3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts. 4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. 5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy? 6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. 7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. 11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. 13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.



Act 26:13 At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me. 14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. 16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; 17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Your false teachings make the above scriptural warnings and admonitions of none effect. They set all who believe you up, for satanic deception and ruin. If Satan is no longer, then all supernatural events must be of God. Therefore all who believe as you do, will attribute Satan's present and future supernatural delusions and or deceptions as either fake, or worse yet from God Himself. Either or leading any soul doing so, straight to destruction.

Lying Prophets

Jer 14:13 Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, the prophets say unto them, Ye shall not see the sword, neither shall ye have famine; but I will give you assured peace in this place. 14 Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart. 15 Therefore thus saith the LORD concerning the prophets that prophesy in my name, and I sent them not, yet they say, Sword and famine shall not be in this land; By sword and famine shall those prophets be consumed.

Be careful 3Res when handling the word of God, especially the prophetic word of God. If you are wrong, you will surely be consumed by that danger God's prophetic word warns against, which your teachings have denied. If the devil is truly defeated and gone as you teach, then all is well for you no doubt. If he is not, then you are most certainly his servant in teaching such, and will therefore most certainly share his fate as well. Please do prayerfully study this out thoroughly, and be very sure you are correct.

Amo, I appreciate that your objections to what I post are rooted in your concern for what fate I may or may not experience if I am wrong.  If you read my post to Rella above about scripture showing a certain 3-year novitiate period of proving before an individual takes up any kind of ministry or a calling, that is a time period I carefully tried to abide by before I ever posted online  anything at all to anyone about these views.  I studied scripture voraciously between 2012 and 2015, sifting what I was reading and comparing texts with each other to make certain that everything I was seeing had no internal contradictions whatever.  Only then did I get online and start posting some of these things in public.  Even today I pray constantly for God to never feed me a lie from His book, or allow me to persist in any error of my own making.  What more can I do?   These different viewpoints have nothing to do with elevating me personally, since I deliberately post anonymously wherever possible on the websites where I am a member.

If you are sensing a contradiction in what I said about there always being tares in this world and yet having human evil in this world come to an end, that is perhaps because I did not clarify my point.  Up until the final resurrection at Christ's final return in our future (when God will finally obliterate all remaining elements of human evil from this world), God has promised that Christ's kingdom will increase continually until it "fills the whole earth".   This "filling" is the inhabitants of the whole world becoming exposed to the gospel - not that all will necessarily respond in faith to that exposure to the gospel.  For example, those following Islam are inadvertently taught about the gospel, because the Koran tells them about these so-called "infidels" which they are to do war against.   Unknown to themselves, the more they wage warfare against believers in Christ, they are unintentionally spreading the knowledge of the Christ we serve. 

The transition point when there is finally inhabiting this globe nothing but the resurrected righteous saints is a condition which Christ will accomplish at His final return.  Until then, the progress of Christ's "stone" kingdom will continue to grow, just as presented in the leaven parable. 

In the leaven parable which was supposed to portray the effects of the kingdom of God in this mortal world, the "loaf" is not composed of nothing but leaven.  This parable is a picture of the measures of meal (representing the people of this world over time) being incrementally and increasingly affected by the activity of leaven (Christ's kingdom) within those measures of meal, right up until the time that the "loaf" reaches peak development in size and is baked.

Every one of the scripture references regarding Satan's activity which you submitted above I DO apply to Christ's second coming.  I don't deny that.   It's just that you don't believe Christ when He said that His second coming was about to take place in His generation, before some of those whom He taught face to face had died. 

Any evil taking place today is NOT attributable to God as its cause.  It is caused by the desires within the fallen, wicked hearts of humanity, from which Christ said all manner of evil emerges.  Originally in the Garden of Eden, Satan jump-started that evil within the human heart by tempting the original couple to fall into sin and death.  But once Satan got that ball of evil rolling, his presence in this world is not required for evil to take place, because the "children of the devil" have the capability of doing that all by themselves. 

That is the very purpose why God slew Satan back in AD 70;  to prove to fallen humanity that they are every bit as capable of offending God the Creator as Satan ever was, even without having Satan or his devils around anymore.  Our sin is actually worse than Satan's, because we sin against grace extended to the human race through Christ's mercy.  The fallen angels and Satan were never offered that extended grace to their species. 

: Texas Conservative  Tue May 09, 2023 - 11:25:43
Faith IN Christ or Faith in dates?

TC, I have faith in Christ who, as God, could fulfill His coming on the very specific prophesied year for His coming.  God in the OT boasted that He alone had this ability to call things before they happened, and to bring them about in the time predicted.  This establishes proof for us of His omniscient deity.  Fulfilled events on particular prophesied dates are a wonderful confirmation which God grants to us to bolster our faith in Him.

"Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.  And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them." (Isaiah 44:6-7).  This is a gauntlet which God throws down to humankind, challenging anyone to match His ability to "call the shots" before those things come to pass.

"I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.  Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them."  (Isaiah 42:8-9).

: 3 Resurrections  Tue May 09, 2023 - 11:43:40
TC, I have faith in Christ...    who, as God, could... fulfill His coming on the very specific prophesied year for His coming.  God in the OT boasted that He alone had this ability to call things before they happened, and to bring them about in the time predicted.  This establishes proof for us of His omniscient deity.  Fulfilled events on particular prophesied dates are a wonderful confirmation which God grants to us to bolster our faith in Him.

::headscratch:: ::headscratch:: ::headscratch::

Yes, he could. But just like He could he also said in Matt 24: 36"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

You can count the days that are mentioned all you want from one thing to the other... but it will not lead you to the day we all are looking forward to.

Especially when you refuse to see the year was 30AD and not 33AD. ::tippinghat::

: Rella  Tue May 09, 2023 - 13:52:36

::headscratch:: ::headscratch:: ::headscratch::

Yes, he could. But just like He could he also said in Matt 24: 36"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

You can count the days that are mentioned all you want from one thing to the other... but it will not lead you to the day we all are looking forward to.

Especially when you refuse to see the year was 30AD and not 33AD. ::tippinghat::

Hey there Rella,

I guess I should have specified which "coming" I was referring to in that sentence.  I meant Christ's FIRST coming.  The one when He "came unto His own, and His own received Him not".  This FIRST coming of "Messiah the Prince" was dated by Daniel to be 483 years after the decree would go out to rebuild Jerusalem and its walls and street.  If someone doesn't find the right date for that specific decree, then the year for Christ's FIRST coming 483 years later than that decree will get blurred.

But of the day and hour of Christ's second coming, that exact "day and hour" was obscured temporarily, because Christ's second coming would be based on the day and hour's  appearance of the new moon which the priests watched for assiduously every month.  This new moon's first appearance dictated when the OT Passover week could begin (which varied from year to year), and consequently when the day of Pentecost arrived 50 days later.    But Daniel gave a very specific 1,335 days until the time came for the blessing of a resurrection. 

Once the believers saw Daniel 12:11's  two events happening together in the same season (Jerusalem surrounded by armies at the same season when a daily sacrifice was taken away - which happened together in AD 66), all they had to do was count down Daniel's 1,335 days until Christ returned.  Which countdown resulted in Pentecost day in AD 70.

The phrase "no man knoweth" is in the present tense for the time when that verse was first spoken.   At that time, it was true that this day and hour remained hidden.  But that does not mean no one would EVER know when the day and hour would be arriving.  It also does not mean no man should have even TRIED to know the day and the hour, or that it would be a sin to do so.  That would be adding to scripture's intent.   

: 3 Resurrections  Tue May 09, 2023 - 14:45:12
Hey there Rella,

I guess I should have specified which "coming" I was referring to in that sentence.  I meant Christ's FIRST coming.  The one when He "came unto His own, and His own received Him not".  This FIRST coming of "Messiah the Prince" was dated by Daniel to be 483 years after the decree would go out to rebuild Jerusalem and its walls and street.  If someone doesn't find the right date for that specific decree, then the year for Christ's FIRST coming 483 years later than that decree will get blurred.

But of the day and hour of Christ's second coming, that exact "day and hour" was obscured temporarily, because Christ's second coming would be based on the day and hour's  appearance of the new moon which the priests watched for assiduously every month.  This new moon's first appearance dictated when the OT Passover week could begin (which varied from year to year), and consequently when the day of Pentecost arrived 50 days later.    But Daniel gave a very specific 1,335 days until the time came for the blessing of a resurrection. 

Once the believers saw Daniel 12:11's  two events happening together in the same season (Jerusalem surrounded by armies at the same season when a daily sacrifice was taken away - which happened together in AD 66), all they had to do was count down Daniel's 1,335 days until Christ returned.  Which countdown resulted in Pentecost day in AD 70.

The phrase "no man knoweth" is in the present tense for the time when that verse was first spoken.   At that time, it was true that this day and hour remained hidden.  But that does not mean no one would EVER know when the day and hour would be arriving.  It also does not mean no man should have even TRIED to know the day and the hour, or that it would be a sin to do so.  That would be adding to scripture's intent.

::frown::

Still does not make your 2033 right when it should read 2030.

: Rella  Tue May 09, 2023 - 14:51:01
::frown::

Still does not make your 2033 right when it should read 2030.

I won't complain, Rella, if you get prepared 3 years early for the transition over to the last, 7th millennium in AD 2033.  It gives you 3 additional years to perfect your chicken raising and potato cultivation techniques before things go fallow on us all.   My dental technician has begun both of these activities already, she says.   ::smile:: Anyway, you and I will have been long dead by the time the final resurrection event rolls around in AD 3033. 

I'm curious as to what year you connect with the decree which started the 483-year period of 69 "weeks", if you have decided on one from your studies. 

: 3 Resurrections  Tue May 09, 2023 - 16:57:39
I won't complain, Rella, if you get prepared 3 years early for the transition over to the last, 7th millennium in AD 2033.  It gives you 3 additional years to perfect your chicken raising and potato cultivation techniques before things go fallow on us all.   My dental technician has begun both of these activities already, she says.   ::smile:: Anyway, you and I will have been long dead by the time the final resurrection event rolls around in AD 3033. 

I'm curious as to what year you connect with the decree which started the 483-year period of 69 "weeks", if you have decided on one from your studies.

"what year you connect with the decree which started the 483-year period of 69 "weeks"??? Truth be told I have never given it a thought.... But now you have me all curious.... so.... when I have time  rofl rofl rofl

I have always been curious about Jesus second coming but not tried to set dates specifically because I do believe that we are not to.

If the very disciples that Jesus not only would have confided in, but shared things not for the common ear were kept in the dark, we are supposed to also.

Look how many have picked a date with certainty only to have it come and go and mankind still goes on.

Matt 24:36  "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

Mark 24:36 But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

Matt 24:42  "Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.

Matt 24:44  For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will

Matt 25:13 " Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour.

Mark 13: 33-37 33 "Take heed, keep on the alert; for you do not know when the appointed time will come. 34 It is like a man away on a journey, who upon leaving his house and [t]putting his slaves in charge, assigning to each one his task, also commanded the doorkeeper to stay on the alert. 35 Therefore, be on the alert—for you do not know when the master of the house is coming, whether in the evening, at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or in the morning— 36 in case he should come suddenly and find you asleep. 37 What I say to you I say to all, 'Be on the alert!'"

Acts 1:7  He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;

It is not for you to know seems pretty definitive on what is permitted to me.

1 Thessalonians 5: 1-2  Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.

Mark 13: 32 But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

Mark 13: 33 "Take heed, keep on the alert; for you do not know when the appointed time will come.

So, if you feel you have it all figured out... perhaps you do.

I just never tried to pinpoint His return specifically.

I am not Marshall White, or Jim Jones, or even a David Koresh.

Heck ... I am not even a William Miller. You know him dont you???? He was the catalyst that spurred Ellen White's prominence when he missed it with his prediction Jesus would return in 1844.   She had been raised as a devout Methodist, but her family was forced out of the Methodist Church when she accepted William Miller's preaching about the imminent return of Jesus.

Imagine her disappointment when it did not happen. (no, I am not a folloerer of hers, but in a way I have a certain admiration for her dedication to her core beliefs.... as I do you.)

But rather than remain disappointed, Ellen,  and several others went back to their Bibles and dug deeper for truth. Where might they have gone wrong?

They discovered that 1844 actually marked the approximate time in which Jesus began His work in the Most Holy Place of the heavenly sanctuary (Hebrews 9:23-26). It wasn't a date for Jesus' return to earth.

I am sure Amo could tell us more for I just have scratched the surface of her in my curiosity over the years.(BTW.. not just her, but also Joseph Smith)

Well.. ::headscratch:: lets not let some of his beliefs stay silent....

"I have asked of the Lord concerning His coming; and while asking the Lord, He gave a sign and said, 'In the days of Noah I set a bow in the heavens as a sign and token that in any year that the bow should be seen the Lord would not come; but there should be seed time and harvest during that year: but whenever you see the bow withdrawn, it shall be a token that there shall be famine, pestilence, and great distress among the nations, and that the coming of the Messiah is not far distant.' "10

"Judah must return, Jerusalem must be rebuilt, and the temple, and water come out from under the temple, and the waters of the Dead Sea be healed [see Ezekiel 47:1–9]. It will take some time to rebuild the walls of the city and the temple, etc.; and all this must be done before the Son of Man will make His appearance. There will be wars and rumors of wars, signs in the heavens above and on the earth beneath, the sun turned into darkness and the moon to blood, earthquakes in divers places, the seas heaving beyond their bounds; then will appear one grand sign of the Son of Man in heaven. But what will the world do? They will say it is a planet, a comet, etc. But the Son of Man will come as the sign of the coming of the Son of Man, which will be as the light of the morning cometh out of the east [see Joseph Smith—Matthew 1:26]."11

"The coming of the Son of Man never will be—never can be till the judgments spoken of for this hour are poured out: which judgments are commenced. Paul says, 'Ye are the children of the light, and not of the darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief in the night.' [See 1 Thessalonians 5:4–5.] It is not the design of the Almighty to come upon the earth and crush it and grind it to powder, but he will reveal it to His servants the prophets [see Amos 3:7]."13

"Jesus Christ never did reveal to any man the precise time that He would come [see Matthew 24:36; Doctrine and Covenants 49:7]. Go and read the Scriptures, and you cannot find anything that specifies the exact hour He would come; and all that say so are false teachers."14

Regarding a man who claimed to have seen the sign of the Son of Man, the Prophet Joseph Smith said: "He has not seen the sign of the Son of Man, as foretold by Jesus; neither has any man, nor will any man, until after the sun shall have been darkened and the moon bathed in blood; for the Lord hath not shown me any such sign; and as the prophet saith, so it must be—'Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but He revealeth His secret unto His servants the prophets.' (See Amos 3:7.) Therefore hear this, O earth: The Lord will not come to reign over the righteous, in this world, in 1843, nor until everything for the Bridegroom is ready."15

OKAY, Ill stop for now.

I have never tried, nor even wanted to try to put a date to anything. I have prayed it would be imminent... but that did not work either. It would not surprise me at all if someone did date the 2nd ( for me) coming and they were correct that God very well would just delay things to let no man be correct when His son did not even know.

Amo, I appreciate that your objections to what I post are rooted in your concern for what fate I may or may not experience if I am wrong.  If you read my post to Rella above about scripture showing a certain 3-year novitiate period of proving before an individual takes up any kind of ministry or a calling, that is a time period I carefully tried to abide by before I ever posted online  anything at all to anyone about these views.  I studied scripture voraciously between 2012 and 2015, sifting what I was reading and comparing texts with each other to make certain that everything I was seeing had no internal contradictions whatever.  Only then did I get online and start posting some of these things in public.  Even today I pray constantly for God to never feed me a lie from His book, or allow me to persist in any error of my own making.  What more can I do?   These different viewpoints have nothing to do with elevating me personally, since I deliberately post anonymously wherever possible on the websites where I am a member.

If you are sensing a contradiction in what I said about there always being tares in this world and yet having human evil in this world come to an end, that is perhaps because I did not clarify my point.  Up until the final resurrection at Christ's final return in our future (when God will finally obliterate all remaining elements of human evil from this world), God has promised that Christ's kingdom will increase continually until it "fills the whole earth".   This "filling" is the inhabitants of the whole world becoming exposed to the gospel - not that all will necessarily respond in faith to that exposure to the gospel.  For example, those following Islam are inadvertently taught about the gospel, because the Koran tells them about these so-called "infidels" which they are to do war against.   Unknown to themselves, the more they wage warfare against believers in Christ, they are unintentionally spreading the knowledge of the Christ we serve. 

The transition point when there is finally inhabiting this globe nothing but the resurrected righteous saints is a condition which Christ will accomplish at His final return.  Until then, the progress of Christ's "stone" kingdom will continue to grow, just as presented in the leaven parable. 

In the leaven parable which was supposed to portray the effects of the kingdom of God in this mortal world, the "loaf" is not composed of nothing but leaven.  This parable is a picture of the measures of meal (representing the people of this world over time) being incrementally and increasingly affected by the activity of leaven (Christ's kingdom) within those measures of meal, right up until the time that the "loaf" reaches peak development in size and is baked.

Every one of the scripture references regarding Satan's activity which you submitted above I DO apply to Christ's second coming.  I don't deny that.   It's just that you don't believe Christ when He said that His second coming was about to take place in His generation, before some of those whom He taught face to face had died. 

Any evil taking place today is NOT attributable to God as its cause.  It is caused by the desires within the fallen, wicked hearts of humanity, from which Christ said all manner of evil emerges.  Originally in the Garden of Eden, Satan jump-started that evil within the human heart by tempting the original couple to fall into sin and death.  But once Satan got that ball of evil rolling, his presence in this world is not required for evil to take place, because the "children of the devil" have the capability of doing that all by themselves. 

That is the very purpose why God slew Satan back in AD 70;  to prove to fallen humanity that they are every bit as capable of offending God the Creator as Satan ever was, even without having Satan or his devils around anymore.  Our sin is actually worse than Satan's, because we sin against grace extended to the human race through Christ's mercy.  The fallen angels and Satan were never offered that extended grace to their species.

Dan 2:34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

Luk 13:20 And again he said, Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God? 21 It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

It appears that you have basically built a doctrine upon questionable interpretation of the above four verses of scripture. Declaring that the above verses mean that Christ's kingdom once established in the earth, will slowly grow and grow until it finally surpasses all others and fills the earth. Apparently subduing and or surpassing all other kingdoms of this world before our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ appears again. Is this not correct?

Before addressing the problems and contradictions of this interpretation, I should like to point out that this mindset is basically identical to that of the founders of the Holy Roman Empire. They believed it was their place to establish their version of Christ's kingdom above all other kingdoms of this world as well. As this was God's desire, according as interpreted it. Which kingdom resulted in the Dark Ages, and the persecution and murder of countless millions of peoples, including millions of professed Christians. Forming the first beast power described in the book of Revelation chapter 13. Which beast received a deadly wound to its head, which is healed with the help of the second beast of Revelation 13, unto the final beast of biblical prophesy described in the book of Revelation.

This event is transpiring right before our very eyes today. As the Vatican continues to reach new heights of power and influence on a global scale in the unification of this worlds nations, religions, and economies under her guiding and self proclaimed and established leadership. The United States itself being the second beast of biblical prophecy helping the Holy Roman Empire to heal its deadly wound and rise to even greater power on the world stage than she attained before. Believing of course again, that this is her place and purpose according to her own brand of so called "Christianity". Which brand of "Christianity" includes a government enforced day of rest and worship, contrary the the fourth commandment of God. The enforcement of which, will lead to the mark of the beast in direct opposition and contradiction to the seal of the living God. All choosing one or the other according to their choice of allegiance. But now back to addressing the problems with your interpretation.

The first contradiction I should like to address, is your support of the term "the whole earth" in Daniel 2:35, to mean just exactly what it states. That is to say, that it simply means exactly what it states, as in the whole world. This you allow for concerning your own interpretation, but disregard or argue against concerning similar and even more scripturally established statements to the same effect, regarding the final beast power of the book of Revelation. Does the whole earth or world, mean the whole earth or world, or not? Why do you apparently think and or agree that it does in Daniel 2:35, but refuse that it does elsewhere? I agree that the term does not always actually mean the entire world. Being at times more of a figurative statement concerning a very large area and or one's entire world according the their perspective. At which time, context becomes very important to the determination one way or the other. Do you not agree? It seems you must, since you accept that Dan 2:35 is the whole world, but reject such similar statements within scripture elsewhere.

Yes, the context within which these statements are made, is very important in determining their literal application, or not. As well as establishing such, with the greater testimony of increased scriptural support from throughout the Bible. So let's begin by examining the details of Dan2:35 and other scriptures within this same chapter to determine proper application or not, in your interpretation.  I can agree that the mountain described in Daniel 2 does eventually fill the whole earth, as this teaching is well established in many other scriptures as well.  The following highlighted verses from Daniel 2 though, create problems for your interpretations elsewhere.

Dan 2:34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. 45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

The timing seems to be off, in your interpretation. The stone which fills the whole earth, does not do so, until after all the other kingdoms are completely destroyed and gone. This was not historically the case at all, concerning the Roman Empire during the days of Christ when His kingdom was established upon this earth, or for hundreds of years past that time. Even well past AD 70, which you basically claim is when all these kingdoms ended. This is a pretty big problem with your interpretation, which certainly needs clarification. The Roman Empire did not completely fall until at least 476 I believe. Even that, was really just the western Roman Empire, not the eastern which lasted much longer. Apart from this also, certain aspects of all the empires of Daniel 2's vision lived on at least religiously through pagan Rome, who allowed for all of their religions to continue and be practiced within their Empire. Many of which still exist to this very day in and through the establishment of the Roman Catholic Church, which incorporated and or adapted many pagan practices, rites, and or ceremonies within her own. This is not to mention the establishment of the Holy Roman Empire as well, which was around in greater or lesser degrees until 1798, when the pope was exiled, and the Vatican and papal states were dissolved as it were.

None of which of course, fits the narrative described in the verses under examination, concerning the complete end of all the former kingdoms before the stone forms the mountain which fills the whole earth. Which prophecy you declare meets its fulfillment in AD70 with the destruction of literal Jerusalem alone. These are not minor issues or problems concerning your interpretation. They are blaring contradictions, which you have stated do not exist regarding your interpretation, as far as your own studies go. So what about these apparent contradictions? How did you solve them?

As is always the case, this post is getting long, and I have barely begun to address the many issues I have with your interpretation. The kingdoms described in Daniel 2 did not end in AD 70, nor is there any indication that Satan came to his end in AD 70. More on this though, and other problems, in other posts later. Please do address these apparent contradictions when time allows, Thanks.

Amo, I can spend just a little time answering some of your above comments because I have a birthday gift to make for my grandson's birthday tomorrow.  Also, I am having difficulty just sitting in a chair today because I re-injured a leg nerve with staining my deck yesterday.  I'm not quite up to outside labor for 7 hours straight anymore.  Sometimes getting old is not the golden years that we wish it could be.

If I remember my own posting on Daniel's stone crushing the elements of that statue to dust on the wind, I believe I have emphasized that it is the POWER BEHIND all those world empires which was simultaneously crushed all at one time.  We know the the former Chaldean, Medo-Persian, and Greek kingdoms of that statue had each lost their control one after the other over the centuries by the time the Roman empire came into being.  So it was not strictly the governmental structures themselves for those varied empireswhich Christ as the stone destroyed with one strike.    It was the Satanic power working behind the scenes of each of those kingdoms which was destroyed with one blow of Christ the rock cut without hands. 

Satan was called "the Prince of this world", and he boasted to Christ in the wilderness temptation that the power of the kingdoms of the world were his and he could give it to whom he chose.  When Christ slew Satan in AD 70, the nations were no longer operating with Satan as the "Prince of this world" working behind the scenes anymore.  Therefore, Christ confiscated those "many crowns" (Rev. 19:12) for Himself. 

So it makes no difference if the Roman empire lasted past the AD 70 era as a government structure in this world.  It was Satan and his devils' power operating behind the scenes of the Roman empire which God completely destroyed back in AD 70.   Any evil taking place in the nations since then has been originating from that which emerges from the hearts of mankind.  When the Catholic church later grew to become a persecuting force in this world, this was due to the evil impulses of the human heart causing religion to go wrong - not because the Roman Catholic church was the fulfillment of the Revelation 13 Sea Beast.  That Sea Beast was done away with once the Satanic realm was destroyed, just like Daniel's statue was destroyed completely in one strike of the rock.     
   

: 3 Resurrections  Fri May 12, 2023 - 16:15:31
Also, I am having difficulty just sitting in a chair today because I re-injured a leg nerve with staining my deck yesterday.  be.




   

Alternate ice and heat.

One for 20 min... no more then off for at least 40 min  or 1 hour 40 min.

Then the other for 20 min... no more and off like above.

Do this any chance you can all day long for the number of days it bothers you but it WILL help.

If it is from your sciatic nerve do the ice/heat at the base of your spine on the side the pain is in your leg.

The heat is soothing and the ice helps any inflammation.

DO NOT go to bed laying on a heating pad.... if you fall asleep you will get burned.

: 3 Resurrections  Fri May 12, 2023 - 16:15:31
Amo, I can spend just a little time answering some of your above comments because I have a birthday gift to make for my grandson's birthday tomorrow.  Also, I am having difficulty just sitting in a chair today because I re-injured a leg nerve with staining my deck yesterday.  I'm not quite up to outside labor for 7 hours straight anymore.  Sometimes getting old is not the golden years that we wish it could be.

If I remember my own posting on Daniel's stone crushing the elements of that statue to dust on the wind, I believe I have emphasized that it is the POWER BEHIND all those world empires which was simultaneously crushed all at one time.  We know the the former Chaldean, Medo-Persian, and Greek kingdoms of that statue had each lost their control one after the other over the centuries by the time the Roman empire came into being.  So it was not strictly the governmental structures themselves for those varied empireswhich Christ as the stone destroyed with one strike.    It was the Satanic power working behind the scenes of each of those kingdoms which was destroyed with one blow of Christ the rock cut without hands. 

Satan was called "the Prince of this world", and he boasted to Christ in the wilderness temptation that the power of the kingdoms of the world were his and he could give it to whom he chose.  When Christ slew Satan in AD 70, the nations were no longer operating with Satan as the "Prince of this world" working behind the scenes anymore.  Therefore, Christ confiscated those "many crowns" (Rev. 19:12) for Himself. 

So it makes no difference if the Roman empire lasted past the AD 70 era as a government structure in this world.  It was Satan and his devils' power operating behind the scenes of the Roman empire which God completely destroyed back in AD 70.   Any evil taking place in the nations since then has been originating from that which emerges from the hearts of mankind.  When the Catholic church later grew to become a persecuting force in this world, this was due to the evil impulses of the human heart causing religion to go wrong - not because the Roman Catholic church was the fulfillment of the Revelation 13 Sea Beast.  That Sea Beast was done away with once the Satanic realm was destroyed, just like Daniel's statue was destroyed completely in one strike of the rock.     

All of your speculations above are extra biblical, and as far as I can tell of private interpretation. The scriptures under examination do not make the distinctions you are privately making. Nor can history provide any support for your speculations, as they would be beyond observation and therefore recording. We are all therefore left with nothing but 3Res says so, as the proof and authority of your interpretations. Daniel 2:35 does not specify that it is only talking about the powers behind the scenes that would come to and end, nor does scripture state anywhere anything like satan coming to his end thousands of years before the world ends along with fallen humanity. These crucial points of your interpretation must taken by faith alone in your speculations. More scriptural support is necessary for these speculations if they are to be considered worthy of time and attention.

Daniel 7 addresses these same four kingdoms, and another power which arises out of the fourth kingdom. Reaching again to the end, judgment, and the establishment of Christ's kingdom over all. The fourth kingdom, and the little horn power which grows out of it, apparently exist in some form or another right up until the end. When all earthly kingdoms come to their end, and Christ's kingdom is literally established in this world over and above all forever, Amen. While the other kingdoms passed in succession, they are said to have lived on for a season, but the fourth beast or kingdom comes to a complete end at the judgment and establishment of Christ's kingdom over all. This is no doubt after His second coming when this fallen world ends, is judged, and replaced with the new heaven and earth over which Christ reigns supreme.

Dan 7:12  As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

The lives of the other kingdoms were prolonged in this world in that even though they were conquered, the peoples were not completely destroyed, but rather continued to play a part in this world concerning their influence upon it and the kingdoms which conquered them. Concerning their religious beliefs and cultures, as history testifies. The final kingdom though, continues in one form or another until the very end being conquered finally and completely at Christ's return. Their power and influence being completely ended by the judgment, execution of said judgment, and complete end of this world, being replaced by the new heaven and earth.

Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ's first coming unto salvation was during the Roman empire. The little horn power of Daniel 7 arose during the Roman empire as well. This little horn power was in fact the papacy, apostate "Christianity" which developed into the Holy Roman Empire, the first beast of Revelation chapter thirteen. The book of Revelation picks up where the book of Daniel left off, concerning the biblical beasts of prophecy during this new covenant age, unto the end. The prophetic events and beasts described and foretold in the book of Revelation, did not end in AD 70, they are God's prophetic utterance and instruction for Christ's church unto the end of the new covenant era. Which is also the end of this world.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. 4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.