https://ericmetaxas.com/books/letter-to-the-american-church/ (https://ericmetaxas.com/books/letter-to-the-american-church/)
I'm about halfway through this 136 page and recommend it. The author highlignts Dietrich Bonhoeffer's efforts to get the church involved in speaking against Hitler's evil in Germany back in the 1930's. I think it could speak to the Church of today as well.
Hmmm... who's more likely to grow "the stache," Biden or Trump?
rofl
I think Biden has more than proved HIS tendencies. There have been many unfounded accusations against Trump, but his 4 year record doesn't uphold that in my opinion. If you are in doubt, might wanna vote for RFK Jr. ::crackup:: at least Fauci would be somewhat concerned! At any rate Biden and the Dems are locked and loaded for way more lawfare that would make the Nazis proud!
At any rate the point of the book is that it might not be advisable for the church to stay silent politically looking back on the German Church's experiences in the Nazi era. I think that is true. Just staying neutral politically might not be the best with the evil we see in the world regardless of one's perspective, regardless of possibly endangering their tax exempt status.
: Jaime Sat Mar 09, 2024 - 14:41:54I think Biden has more than proved HIS tendencies. There have been many unfounded accusations against Trump, but his 4 year record doesn't uphold that in my opinion. If you are in doubt, might wanna vote for RFK Jr.
That's the plan!
: Jaime Sat Mar 09, 2024 - 14:41:54At any rate the point of the book is that it might not be advisable for the church to stay silent politically looking back on the German Church's experiences in the Nazi era. I think that is true. Just staying neutral politically might not be the best with the evil we see in the world regardless of one's perspective, regardless of possibly endangering their tax exempt status.
The tax-exempt status doesn't matter as much as it used to. The standard deduction is so high now that very few people get to claim charitable deductions anyway. The parishioners won't be hurt at all.
But, it would mean that the churches would have to file tax returns, and that would paint a pretty clear picture of where the church funds are
really going. If a church is scared of that, I'd say there's something rotten in Dodge.
The tax scam that LBJ put in where churches were scared to be politically active was one of LBJ's sad legacy among many other things. The church HAS to stand up to evil no matter which party is the source.
: Jaime Sat Mar 09, 2024 - 14:00:40https://ericmetaxas.com/books/letter-to-the-american-church/ (https://ericmetaxas.com/books/letter-to-the-american-church/)
I'm about halfway through this 136 page and recommend it. The author highlignts Dietrich Bonhoeffer's efforts to get the church involved in speaking against Hitler's evil in Germany back in the 1930's. I think it could speak to the Church of today as well.
I think a most obvious problem would be the Roman Catholic Church. Which many today believe to be authentic Christianity. They were a major problem back then, as the Vatican and Pope were the first to sign a political accord with Adolf Hitler and the Nazi party, and recommend that their adherents support them. Joe Biden is a Roman Catholic. Not only does the Vatican support most of what he is doing and advise others to as well, but much of what he is doing is directly in line with what the Vatican has been calling for in its Encyclicals, and social justice agenda.
Lest people forget, our form of government, Declaration of Independence, and Constitution were backed up by a predominantly Protestant peoples. Many of whom had escaped Roman Catholic persecution, and persecution at the hands of other Protestants who had not yet rejected a combined church and state. The Roman Catholic Church had little to do with the founding principles upon which our government was formed. To the contrary, the two papal Encyclicals published nearest our governments formation, reveal their hostility toward our founding principles. The following link examines these Encyclicals in posts 305 & 306.
https://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php?topic=93028.280
The following quote is from the book Ecclesiastical Megalomania, The Economic and Political Thought of the Roman Catholic Church, by Dr. John W. Robbins.
Roman Catholic economic thought, as developed by the popes in their encyclicals and by Roman Church-State councils, has been a contributor to, if not the only source of, several forms of anti-capitalist political and economic organization during the long hegemony of the Roman Church-State. Among these forms are
1. feudalism and guild socialism in Europe during the Middle ages.
2. fascism in Italy, Spain, Portugal, Croatia, and Latin America in the twentieth century;
3. Nazism in Germany in the twentieth century;
4. interventionism and redistributive state in the West, including the United States in the twentieth century; and
5. liberation theology in Latin America and Africa in the twentieth century.
(Ecclesiastical Megalomania, John W. Robbins, Pt. 1, chap. 1, pg. 30)
From these doctrines of the natural community of goods and the moral primacy of need developed all the forms of anti-capitalist social organizations that the Roman Church-State has supported for the thousand years. The Roman Catholic doctrine of private property is echoed in the nineteenth century Communist slogan, "From each according to his ability; to each according to his need." The Roman Catholic doctrine reverberates in the slogan of twentieth century American liberals: "Human rights are more important than property rights." It was the creed of Lyndon Johnson's Great Society:, "We shall take from the haves and give to the have nots, who need it so much." It appears in the literature of fascism, Nazism, liberation theology, interventionism, and socialism. (Ibid., pg. 35)
These Thomistic notions - that private property is merely a construct of human reason and government, and that need gives the needy title to the goods of others - are the reason the Roman Catholic bishops in Brazil in 1998 pronounced that looting is neither sin nor a crime. The needs of the looters gives the looters title to the goods they are taking. According to Roman Catholic doctrine, the looters are, by natural and divine law, the rightful owners of those goods.
(Ibid., pgs. 35&36)
The dispensing of riches to the needy is not merely a private moral obligation in Thomisitic thought, as fundamentally important as that is, but a public legal obligation that is properly enforced by the public authorities. That is the position officially adopted by the Roman Church-State shall become abundantly clear. (Ibid., pg. 36)
So apparently, only those Catholics willing to go against the teachings and social doctrine agenda of the leadership of the church, would join in with the warnings you are speaking of. More than likely they would argue against such, as many of them do at present.
In my view, too many Protestant churches are way too apolitical like the Lutheran church was in the 1930's in the face of the matastasizing Nazi cancer according to the author. We have dangerous tendancies boiling up with the Marxists in this country, and the church may be the only hope to mobilize real opposition against such. Hitler was able to succeed with his evil BECAUSE the church in Germany (largely protestant Lutherans) was silent.
: Jaime Sat Mar 09, 2024 - 19:43:53In my view, too many Protestant churches are way too apolitical like the Lutheran church was in the 1930's in the face of the matastasizing Nazi cancer according to the author. We have dangerous tendancies boiling up with the Marxists in this country, and the church may be the only hope to mobilize real opposition against such. Hitler was able to succeed with his evil BECAUSE the church in Germany (largely protestant Lutherans) was silent.
Agreed. Biblical Christianity should certainly stand up for the protection of freedom and liberty. In so doing though, it must be careful not to force itself upon others either, if or when they have the power to do so. As the Roman Catholic church has been and is presently so apt to do whenever possible concerning its own political views and or agendas.
The danger today is the ever closer connection between bible believing Christians, and Roman Catholicism. The latter presently holding an unbalanced amount of power over the peoples of this nation, by their large numbers inhabiting all three branches of our government. Which itself is exactly why we are rapidly devolving into the political vision of the Vatican globalist elitist agenda. The will of our people being increasingly bypassed by that of unelected officials of international elitist globalist organizations, which the Pope's of Rome not only support, but ask us to submit to.
Most churches today in the US and A don't even truly believe in the gospel. So who even cares about politics.
: Jaime Sat Mar 09, 2024 - 19:43:53In my view, too many Protestant churches are way too apolitical like the Lutheran church was in the 1930's in the face of the matastasizing Nazi cancer according to the author. We have dangerous tendancies boiling up with the Marxists in this country, and the church may be the only hope to mobilize real opposition against such. Hitler was able to succeed with his evil BECAUSE the church in Germany (largely protestant Lutherans) was silent.
I agree with you on this. I do not think that it is because the Protestant churches are way too apolitical; rather I think the Protestant churches are way too political. That is, far too many of the major denominations, including the Catholic Church, has succumbed to a leftist ideology.
This country was founded very solidly on the Judeo-Christian values; not so much on the religion but certainly on the values. However, without the religion, the values will not maintain. What we are witnessing is clearly a departure from those values. And the churches do not seem to be standing much against that departure.
I believe that the only real answer is a revival to those Judeo-Christian values. That will only happen with a revival to a true belief in the God of the Bible. I don't see that happening. What I am convinced of is that (1) short of his dying between now and November, Biden will be the democrat nominee; (2) if Biden wins, then this nation, and hence the west generally, will be lost; (3) even if Trump wins he can only slow the inevitable.
The reason that Trump cannot actually turn things around is because, I believe, while he seems to believe in Judeo-Christain values, he doesn't really know or believe what truly is the root of those values. He shows no tendency toward a revival of fear and worship of the God of the Bible. And that probably because he doesn't even know what that would mean. Is there someone else that will come along to change that? I doubt it.
Where we differ 4WD, i think God can and WILL use an unlikely man exactly like Trump to turn this country. God used a man who was a murderer and adulterer in King David.
I believe we are in a battle of good vs evil that is climaxing. Trump is not our savior, but I think iIF this country turns around, it may well be an unlikely man like Donald Trump, used by God, to bring about a revival that we need as well as undo some of the horrible fiscal folly we have allowed ourselves to engage. The manner of that turning is up to God.
From what I have seen in my lifetime, a lot of conservative churches including the CofC have overtly TRIED to remain apolotical and one could argue for good reason, but like the Church in the 1930s I think we need to be way more vocal than we are now with the evil we see arrayed against us whatever the source. It is NOT the church's place to hold political rallies or have military flybys during flag waving services. BUT it IS the church's place to take a stand against evil. We hesitate BECAUSE we don't want to appear political. With that hesitation we toy with the spiral of silence that plagued the German church in the 1930s. As you eloquently stated, we are more at a crossroads than ever before, even though EVERY election in the past 40 years has been said to be the most pivotal in history. This one actually IS in my opinion. At my age and yours, we become motivated for our kids and grandkid's sake. We may be looking at our last chance to take a stand against an evil that spans both of the major parties in the form of the Establishment Uniparty masquerading as a two party system marketing the illusion of choice, and augmented by and administrative DEEP STATE, all under the cover of an advocate media and Social Media platforms.
We have seen farmers recently all over the world rising up against the oppressive WEF and WHO elite surrogate governments. (This is not visible in our mainstream media) I believe we will likely see a WORLDWIDE standing up against such evil in the coming months of 2024. The evil ones sense the looming danger to their plans. They will NOT go quietly in my opinion.
https://www.bible.com/reading-plans/43814-letter-to-the-american-church/day/3 (https://www.bible.com/reading-plans/43814-letter-to-the-american-church/day/3)
"Silence in the face of evil is itself evil." Although not directly from Bonhoeffer, this phrase encapsulates the essence of his plea to the Church of his time. It's a call that's relevant today, reminding us that indifference and inaction in the face of injustice are not neutral; they side with oppression.
In our modern era, we too grapple with what German sociologist Elisabeth Noelle-Neumann coined as the "Spiral of Silence." It's the phenomenon where the fewer people that speak up, the higher the price becomes for speaking out, leading to an increasing culture of silence. This deadly spiral took hold in 1930s Germany and still finds resonance in our communities today.
So, what truly keeps us silent? Is it fear of isolation, criticism, or repercussion? Or is it, perhaps, a deeper misunderstanding about our faith and role as Christians in society?
: Jaime Mon Mar 11, 2024 - 07:04:54Where we differ 4WD, i think God can and WILL use an unlikely man exactly like Trump to turn this country. God used a man who was a murderer and adulterer in King David.
I could be totally wrong, but I do not see God providentially interacting with the events of today like He did with Israel in the days leading up to the first coming of Jesus. God did that for the very purpose of bringing Jesus to the world to establish His plan of salvation (Rom 9). I do not think any such similar purpose exists today. Europe was the original "nation" based upon the Judeo-Christian values. Europe has largely apostatized and yet God has not turned Europe in any way that you might picture His turning the US.
Under the Old Covenant, Israel was in fact a theocracy with God as her "official" leader. That is not the situation today. National (ethnic) Israel was God elect (chosen) nation. Under the New Covenant, there is no elect (chosen) nation. The body of Jesus Christ, Christians, constitute God's only elect people.
It will be interesting to see what happens in Argentina under the new right wing Javier Milei. He identifies as Catholic. Will he govern counter to Pope Francis?
I do not know of any significant nation, which having fallen under a Marxist type of government, ever to self-correct.
Obviously we are not Israel of old, but I do believe God had a providential purpose for this country. Will he intervene? I don't know, BUT if we are to TURN, I believe he will have to intervene and his intervention will be through imperfect men as it was with our founding. And we the Church will have to resist the spiral of silence.
: Amo Sun Mar 10, 2024 - 13:07:21Agreed. Biblical Christianity should certainly stand up for the protection of freedom and liberty. In so doing though, it must be careful not to force itself upon others either, if or when they have the power to do so.
I think you have American ideals confused with Biblical ones.
The first commandment is "no other gods" and that's precisely the opposite of "separation of church and state." That's state religion, and it
is forcing itself upon society.
As for liberty, Paul writes about it at length... but also identifies himself as a "bondservant of Jesus Christ." American liberty is quite a bit more... libertine... than Biblical liberty.
: 4WD Mon Mar 11, 2024 - 08:45:01I do not know of any significant nation, which having fallen under a Marxist type of government, ever to self-correct.
What do you consider as self-correction? There are a bunch of countries that are no-longer-communist.
Yugoslavia, for example, was a communist country, had a civil war, and is now several states which are not controlled by the communist party (oversimplified).
: Jaime Mon Mar 11, 2024 - 09:02:25Obviously we are not Israel of old, but I do believe God had a providential purpose for this country. Will he intervene? I don't know, BUT if we are to TURN, I believe he will have to intervene and his intervention will be through imperfect men as it was with our founding. And we the Church will have to resist the spiral of silence.
Referring to this?
2 Chronicles 7:14and My people who are called by My name humble themselves and pray and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, will forgive their sin and will heal their land.While we (USA) may have served a purpose in the plan of Christ, We aren't Israel. Neither is Europe.
: Jaime Mon Mar 11, 2024 - 07:04:54Where we differ 4WD, i think God can and WILL use an unlikely man exactly like Trump to turn this country. God used a man who was a murderer and adulterer in King David.
I believe we are in a battle of good vs evil that is climaxing. Trump is not our savior, but I think iIF this country turns around, it may well be an unlikely man like Donald Trump, used by God, to bring about a revival that we need as well as undo some of the horrible fiscal folly we have allowed ourselves to engage. The manner of that turning is up to God.
From what I have seen in my lifetime, a lot of conservative churches including the CofC have overtly TRIED to remain apolotical and one could argue for good reason, but like the Church in the 1930s I think we need to be way more vocal than we are now with the evil we see arrayed against us whatever the source. It is NOT the church's place to hold political rallies or have military flybys during flag waving services. BUT it IS the church's place to take a stand against evil. We hesitate BECAUSE we don't want to appear political. With that hesitation we toy with the spiral of silence that plagued the German church in the 1930s. As you eloquently stated, we are more at a crossroads than ever before, even though EVERY election in the past 40 years has been said to be the most pivotal in history. This one actually IS in my opinion. At my age and yours, we become motivated for our kids and grandkid's sake. We may be looking at our last chance to take a stand against an evil that spans both of the major parties in the form of the Establishment Uniparty masquerading as a two party system marketing the illusion of choice, and augmented by and administrative DEEP STATE, all under the cover of an advocate media and Social Media platforms.
We have seen farmers recently all over the world rising up against the oppressive WEF and WHO elite surrogate governments. (This is not visible in our mainstream media) I believe we will likely see a WORLDWIDE standing up against such evil in the coming months of 2024. The evil ones sense the looming danger to their plans. They will NOT go quietly in my opinion.
Standing up for bad government and spiritual revival is not the same thing. The problem with a Republic with representative Democracy, is that when the people stray from God, it all falls apart. We are there, we just haven't seen all the consequences yet. Short of a revival initiated by the Holy Spirit not Trump, we will fall.
: Texas Conservative Tue Mar 12, 2024 - 07:18:11Referring to this?
2 Chronicles 7:14
and My people who are called by My name humble themselves and pray and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
While we (USA) may have served a purpose in the plan of Christ, We aren't Israel. Neither is Europe.
Never said we were Israel. We aren't. But God CAN heal our land, if we turn for our ways, and he would likely use imperfect men in the process.
Of course the Holy Spirit will be the impetus, but the Holy Spirit will likely use imperfect men, or He will cause repentence in imperfect men as our government reps to implement laws and do away with horrible laws whether it is using me or Rand Paul or Franklin Graham, or Tony Evans or Donald Trump. No man or woman ( except maybe Hillary ::smile:: ) is beyond the reach of being a tool of the Holy Spirit.
Where the church must do is stand up and speek out or we will accelerate our country's fate as the German church did theirs. No need for political cheer leading, but fearlessly standing up for good and speakkng out boldy against evil, no matter whether the source is over zealous Conservarives OR Liberals. We cannot hold back for fear of appearing political.
: Jaime Tue Mar 12, 2024 - 07:38:17Of course the Holy Spirit will be the impetus, but the Holy Spirit will likely use imperfect men, or He will cause repentence in imperfect men as our government reps to implement laws and do away with horrible laws whether it is using me or Rand Paul or Franklin Graham, or Tony Evans or Donald Trump. No man or woman ( except maybe Hillary ::smile:: ) is beyond the reach of being a tool of the Holy Spirit.
Where the church must do is stand up and speek out or we will accelerate our country's fate as the German church did theirs. No need for political cheer leading, but fearlessly standing up for good and speakkng out boldy against evil, no matter whether the source is over zealous Conservarives OR Liberals. We cannot hold back for fear of appearing political.
Most churches don't even preach the gospel anymore.
We are called to preach Jesus, and spread the gospel. That is where change lies.
Obviously the gospel must be preached AND evil must be stood against BOLDLY! If not the Church, then WHO? People like Hitler counted on the Church being silent. Hitler was right about the German Church unfortunately.
: Texas Conservative Tue Mar 12, 2024 - 07:18:11While we (USA) may have served a purpose in the plan of Christ, We aren't Israel. Neither is Europe.
No, but we contain much of Israel. The 5 cities with the largest Jewish populations...
1. New York City
2. Jerusalem
3. Los Angeles
4. Tel Aviv
5. Chicago
NYC has 3x as many Jews as Jerusalem...
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Tue Mar 12, 2024 - 15:21:11No, but we contain much of Israel. The 5 cities with the largest Jewish populations...
1. New York City
2. Jerusalem
3. Los Angeles
4. Tel Aviv
5. Chicago
NYC has 3x as many Jews as Jerusalem...
We must define the "Israel of God" discussed in Galatians chapter 6 and the Israel discussed in Romans 11 that is comprised of grafted on wild branches (gentile believers) and grafted BACK ON broken off natural branches (Jewish believers) And likely not the obstinate secular Jews living in America or any Jews that don't accept Christ. The Israel of God IS His people people that put on Christ, not simply people that have Jewish blood flowing through their veins.
: Jaime Tue Mar 12, 2024 - 15:53:43We must define the "Israel of God" discussed in Galatians chapter 6 and the Israel discussed in Romans 11 that is comprised of grafted on wild branches (gentile believers) and grafted BACK ON broken off natural branches (Jewish believers) And likely not the obstinate secular Jews living in America or any Jews that don't accept Christ. The Israel of God IS His people people that put on Christ, not simply people that have Jewish blood flowing through their veins.
God still has plans for physical Israel.
: Texas Conservative Tue Mar 12, 2024 - 17:09:03God still has plans for physical Israel.
I believe that too. I don't know what that plan is. My denominational tribe does not believe God has a plan for physical Israel. I suspect the plan will be as surprising as God's plan for the Gentiles was when it was revealed to the Jews that God even had a plan for the Gentiles.
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Tue Mar 12, 2024 - 15:21:11No, but we contain much of Israel. The 5 cities with the largest Jewish populations...
1. New York City
2. Jerusalem
3. Los Angeles
4. Tel Aviv
5. Chicago
NYC has 3x as many Jews as Jerusalem...
If you take the combined Washington DC and Baltimore metroplex area, it beats out Chicago by 100,000
: Jaime Tue Mar 12, 2024 - 17:21:50I believe that too.
Why do you believe that given passages such as Galatians 3:26-29?
: 4WD Wed Mar 13, 2024 - 14:08:05Why do you believe that given passages such as Galatians 3:26-29?
Do you believe there is no distinction between male and female anymore?
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Tue Mar 12, 2024 - 15:21:11No, but we contain much of Israel. The 5 cities with the largest Jewish populations...
1. New York City
2. Jerusalem
3. Los Angeles
4. Tel Aviv
5. Chicago
NYC has 3x as many Jews as Jerusalem...
Rom 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,
: Texas Conservative Wed Mar 13, 2024 - 14:10:28Do you believe there is no distinction between male and female anymore?
Not so far as being "in Christ".
: 4WD Wed Mar 13, 2024 - 14:08:05Why do you believe that given passages such as Galatians 3:26-29?
4WD, I have to think about that but my first inclination is to refer back to Romans 11:25 about the Jews being partially harded or blinded (in some versions)
Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.I guess I believe God is going to do something supernaturally to lift that hardening or blindness, after that they will still need to respond to the Gospel as we do. But they were blinded presumably BY God, so BY God the blindness seems to be going to be lifted By God. Not two Gospels but their blindness to the Gospel will be lifted so they can respond one way or the other as all the rest of humanity does.
: Jaime Wed Mar 13, 2024 - 15:47:074WD, I have to think about that but my first inclination is to refer back to Romans 11:25 about the Jews being partially harded or blinded (in some versions)
Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
I guess I believe God is going to do something supernaturally to lift that hardening or blindness, after that they will still need to respond to the Gospel as we do. But they were blinded presumably BY God, so BY God the blindness seems to be going to be lifted By God. Not two Gospels but their blindness to the Gospel will be lifted so they can respond one way or the other as all the rest of humanity does.
The really all depends upon what you think is the fullness of the Gentiles. I think that happened not long after Paul wrote that. The term fullness as used in the NT is not about time or number unless it specifically says "fullness of time" or "fullness of number". I rather believe that "fullness" in Romans 11:25 is used in the sense of Colossians 1:19. I believe the fullness of the Gentiles is when the gospel message to the Gentiles is complete.
It says, "UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles COMES IN." To me that speaks of the full number coming into the kingdom or the church, not the number who have HEARD the gospel. The GOSPEL is STILL being preached to Gentiles. I strongly doubt the full number of Gentiles has come in as of yet, OR the blindness or hardening would been lifted from Israel, it seems to me.
: Jaime Wed Mar 13, 2024 - 20:50:54It says, "UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles COMES IN." To me that speaks of the full number coming into the kingdom or the church, not the number who have HEARD the gospel. The GOSPEL is STILL being preached to Gentiles. I strongly doubt the full number of Gentiles has come in as of yet, OR the blindness or hardening would been lifted from Israel, it seems to me.
It is not about the number of those who either heard or responded. The word, fullness, in Romans 11:25 is the same Greek word as that in Romans 11:12.
(KJV) Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?Some translations interpret this as "full number" as you are want to do with verse 25. I disagree with that. The Greek word is πλήρωμα [plērōma]. As a noun it carries the meaning of repletion or completion, that is, what fills or what is filled in a qualitative sense. I believe that it refers to spiritual fullness, i.e., being filled with all the abundance of salvation. The word itself as used elsewhere in the NT does not refer to "full number" but rather to completeness or abundance. See for example John 1:16.
(ESV) And from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace.
(KJV) And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
Also consider Romans 15:29,
(ESV) I know that when I come to you I will come in the fullness of the blessing of Christ. Also Ephesians 1:23, "the fullness of Him (Christ)"; Ephesians 3:19, "That you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God"; Ephesians 4:13, "Attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ."
And also compare the way the verb form πληρόω [plēroō] is used in Romans 15:13-14; Ephesians 3:19; 5:18; Phil 1:11; Col 2:10.
I believe this meaning fits the context. In Romans 11:12, "fullness" is in contrast with "transgression" or "fall" and "loss" or "diminishing", words that sum up the lost state as opposed to salvation. This does not have a numerical connotation; the point is simply the lost state as compared with a saved state.
All in all I believe this meaning corresponds to the meaning in verse 25. Fullness in verses 11 and 25 speaks of the rich state of the blessedness of salvation as opposed to the sorry state of being lost. There is nothing in verse 11 that projects the conversion of the Jews to some distant future date or in verse 25 that projects the conversion of the Gentiles at some future date.
I disagree 4WD. How is the state of Gentile blessedness "reached" and how do we know it has happened? Also, we must address the partial blindness or hardening of the Jews. Was this like God hardening Pharoah's heart for a purpose! I believe so. What purpose would their be in the story to speak of the partial blindness UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles has come in? Come in to WHAT? Or just simply come in to the obvious, the kingdom or church? Why leave the object of the sentence open to something like blessedness. In the Kingdom of God, one is either in or out right? Lost or saved. The initial Gentile comverts were purposed to provoke the Jews to jealosy. For what purpose? Maybe something to do with the imposed partial blindness or hardening?
: Jaime Thu Mar 14, 2024 - 06:31:41I disagree 4WD.
I had no doubt, Jaime, that you would disagree. You have to if you want to continue in the premillennial view of the end times. What I showed you is that the definition and meaning of the word "fullness" as you want to use it in Romans 11:25 is not right.
: Jaime Thu Mar 14, 2024 - 06:31:41How is the state of Gentile blessedness "reached" and how do we know it has happened?
I believe the state of Gentile blessedness was reached when the Holy Spirit finished delivering God's written word.
: Jaime Thu Mar 14, 2024 - 06:31:41Also, we must address the partial blindness or hardening of the Jews. Was this like God hardening Pharoah's heart for a purpose! I believe so. What purpose would their be in the story to speak of the partial blindness UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles has come in? Come in to WHAT? Or just simply come in to the obvious, the kingdom or church? Why leave the object of the sentence open to something like blessedness. In the Kingdom of God, one is either in or out right? Lost or saved. The initial Gentile comverts were purposed to provoke the Jews to jealosy. For what purpose? Maybe something to do with the imposed partial blindness or hardening?
The Jews partial blindness was the source for the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. It is the cross that initiated the New Covenant. The New Covenant was fully enunciated with the completion of the New Testament given through the Holy Spirit. Partial blindness of the Jews past that point serves no purpose in God's plan.
God's plan for the Jews now is no different that God's plan for the Gentile.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. That fact is given us in a number of ways throughout the NT. Paul repeatedly made that clear. I can post those for you if you want, but I think you are well aware of them if you would only admit it.
I don't consider myself premillenniel at all. If anything I am mid trib or post trib, per my understanding of Mathew 24, wherenit says AFTER the tribulation (the greatest of all time) of those days I believe the church WILL go through the tribulation, but not the final wrath of God. If not God has some 'splainin' to do to the first century Christian martyrs
I agree that God's plan for the salvation of Jews is the same as the Gentiles, except that the blindness or hardning is lifted on the Jews and THEN they mist answer the Gospel calling like we have. Otherwise why mention the. Lindnessnor hardening at all in Romans 11? Doesn't mean all Jews will say yes since all Gentiles do not say yes to the Gospel. Therefore same ol' same ol' after the supernatural hardening is lifted.
Jaime, the "millennium" is the undefined but very long time between the first and second comings of Jesus Christ. This is the millennium. The millennium is now. We are living in it.
But that is a subject for another OP.
I don't agree. If so, Satan is then presently bound? I don't believe that Satan is bound. If anything, he is more UNBOUND now. This present time is anything BUT a time of unprecedented peace all around the world.
: 4WD Thu Mar 14, 2024 - 07:44:25Jaime, the "millennium" is the undefined but very long time between the first and second comings of Jesus Christ. This is the millennium. The millennium is now. We are living in it.
But that is a subject for another OP.
Naw. We aren't.
: Jaime Thu Mar 14, 2024 - 08:04:22I don't agree. If so, Satan is then presently bound?
Yes.
To explain that would take far more than I can post here. I would recommend to you the chapter 28,
The Millennium, in
"The Faith Once For All" by Jack Cottrell.
4WD what does Cottrell say about Satan being bound now? To me obviously he isn't bound at all. He is roaming around like a roaring lion seeking whom he might devour. The Bible says once he is released, after being bound, he is free to deceive the nations. I think it is just as likely he has been released to decieve the nations presently if he was ever bound at all during an indeterminatelly long millenniel reign, based on the present state of the world.
Here are the first several paragraphs from Cottrell. There is quite a bit more to argue for his position. You can find the rest here: Cottrell, Jack. The Faith Once For All: Bible Doctrine For Today (p. 679 and follows). College Press Publishing Company, Inc.. Kindle Edition.
A. The Binding of Satan
The first three verses of Revelation 20 describe an event that surely sends a thrill through every Christian's heart: the binding of Satan.
The text says, Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.
My strong conviction is that Jesus bound the devil when he came the first time. Many find it extremely difficult to accept this idea, mainly because they hear the words "binding of Satan" and formulate their own idea of what this must mean before they examine the biblical data. If Satan is bound, they think, then there should not be any sin or even temptation on the earth. But sin obviously was not eliminated by Christ's first coming and is still abundant on the earth today. Would one not have to be blind to think that Satan is bound in times like these?
The key to understanding the binding of Satan is to pay close attention to what the Bible actually says about it, not only in Rev 20:1-3 but elsewhere in the NT as well. Regarding the latter we begin with the way Scripture describes the purpose of Christ's first coming. Among other things, it is specifically taught that Jesus came to deal with the devil. First John 3:8 says, "The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil." Among Satan's works are falsehood and death (John 8:44; Heb 2:14), but Jesus came "to testify to the truth" (John 18:37; see John 8:31-47). He has already "abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" (2 Tim 1:10).
Jesus came not only to destroy Satan's works but to "destroy" Satan himself. Hebrews 2:14 clearly states that Jesus came the first time "so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil" (NIV). The word rendered "destroy" by the NIV (katargeo) does not necessarily mean "to annihilate, to abolish completely." Obviously Jesus did not do this to Satan at his first coming. But the word also can mean "to set aside, to make ineffective, to nullify, to render powerless." This is the better understanding here, as in the NASB: Christ came to "render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil."
Either way this is very strong language. John says Jesus came specifically to destroy the devil's works; Hebrews says he came to render the devil powerless. We must ask, if this is why Jesus came, did he actually accomplish these things or did he fail? Surely it would be blasphemous to say the latter. Therefore we conclude that Jesus destroyed Satan's works and rendered him powerless when he came the first time. This is in effect no different from "the binding of Satan" in Rev 20:1-3. If anything, the language of 1 John and Hebrews is even stronger than that of Revelation 20.
If Jesus was to bind or destroy Satan at Jesus' first coming, I would say it failed by all accounts visible to us today.
I wonder if we need to better understand bound or bind. It can't mean to render powerless if Satan is bound today. Not meaning to sound sacreligious, but I am a big proponent of the notion we lose something in the translation of some words. At the bare minimum, bound should mean utterless powerless and I don't SEE that at all today. Evil is way out of control, and Satan seems to have perfected his devouring like a seasoned roaring lion. And nations and peoples are deceived on a wholesale level across the globe, what with child trafficking, sexual perversion, witchcraft and other occult practices, etc.
This all seems like a handy gymnastics to justify or defend an Amillennial or even Preterist position.
: Jaime Thu Mar 14, 2024 - 14:59:23If $the i te t was to bind or destroy Satan at Jesus' first coming, I would say it failed by all accounts visible to us today.
I wonder if we need to better understand bound or bind. It can't mean to render powerless if Satan is bound today. Not meaning to sound sacreligious, but I am a big proponent of the notion we lose something in the translation of some words. At the bare minimum, bound should mean utterless powerless and I don't SEE that at all today. Evil is way out of control, and Satan seems to have perfected his devouring like a seasoned roaring lion. And nations and peoples are deceived on a wholesale level across the globe, what with child trafficking, sexual perversion, witchcraft and other occult practices, etc.
This all seems like a handy gymnastics to justify or defend an Amillennial or even Preterist position.
Have you considered...
Perhaps humanity doesn't require an active devil in order to do horrible things?
I have considered unprecedented evil iS at least somewhat a result of Satan's activity rather than not. The revelation scripture about binding of Satan implies a peaceful or Utopian existence with Satan bound at least when coupled with Old Testament references of the 7th millennium where the lion lays down with the Lamb etc. of my 70 years, recent years are anything but peaceful or Idyllic, hence my view Satan is NOT now bound.
: Jaime Thu Mar 14, 2024 - 16:14:16I have considered unprecedented evil iS at least somewhat a result of Satan's activity rather than not. The revelation scripture anoit binding of Satan implies a peaceful or Utopian existence with Satan bound at least when coupled with Old Testament references of the 7th millennium where the lion lays down with the Lamb etc. of my 70 years, recent years are anything but peaceful or Idyllic, hence my view Satan is NOT now bound.
You are doing exactly what Cottrell has urged you not to do, namely, you are formulating your own idea of what the binding of Satan must mean instead of examining the biblical data. He goes on to point out that having the indwelling Holy Spirit as our helper is a sign of the binding of Satan in the sense presented in the Bible.
: 4WD Fri Mar 15, 2024 - 05:11:43You are doing exactly what Cottrell has urged you not to do, namely, you are formulating your own idea of what the binding of Satan must mean instead of examining the biblical data. He goes on to point out that having the indwelling Holy Spirit as our helper is a sign of the binding of Satan in the sense presented in the Bible.
Wouldn't you be doing the same thing? Except for formulating your own idea, you are giving Cottrell's?
: Texas Conservative Fri Mar 15, 2024 - 11:20:17Wouldn't you be doing the same thing? Except for formulating your own idea, you are giving Cottrell's?
Possibly, but having read and studied Cottrell's, I believe him. I don't agree with him on everything, but on this I agree. I started out many years ago thinking that the premillennial view was the correct one. I have since changed that, and Cottrell wasn't the reason I changed. I didn't realize until later that Cottrell's view was basically the same as mine. He does a better job than I do of laying the biblical reason for his view.
: 4WD Thu Mar 14, 2024 - 07:44:25Jaime, the "millennium" is the undefined but very long time between the first and second comings of Jesus Christ. This is the millennium. The millennium is now. We are living in it.
But that is a subject for another OP.
Lots of peace and safety in this 'millennium', and goodwill. I don't think you are correct to say the least...
: Jaime Mon Mar 11, 2024 - 07:04:54Where we differ 4WD, i think God can and WILL use an unlikely man exactly like Trump to turn this country. God used a man who was a murderer and adulterer in King David.
This is always a bad rationalization, and it leads to our current growing crop of over-testosteroned TheoBros. The ones posting muscle-bound, or gun-toting selfies of themselves on X and telling everyone we need to be prepared to kill people and take back the church, and form a theocracy. Bad, bad logic.
You cannot equate the actions of King David under Mosaic Law to behavior within the Age of Grace and the Church. IHOPKC is trying to use this same logic to excuse the actions of Mike Bickle and it is always the wrong way to go.
Point was Cobalt, God CAN use an imperfect man to bring about his will. We don't need to elect the percect or almost perfect human being for God to use him for His purposes. And who is Mike Bickle?
: Cobalt1959 Tue Mar 19, 2024 - 10:19:53IHOPKC is trying to use this same logic to excuse the actions of Mike Bickle and it is always the wrong way to go.
International House of Pancakes, Kansas City? ::headscratch::
International House of Prayer, Kansas City. Google it.
: 4WD Wed Mar 20, 2024 - 15:41:06International House of Prayer, Kansas City. Google it.
I was so close.
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Wed Mar 20, 2024 - 11:40:10International House of Pancakes, Kansas City? ::headscratch::
I think I like this one better. But House of Pancakes is probably more in line with truth than the guy talked about earlier by cobalt.