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You would do yourself a favor by getting ahold of "Grand Canyon Geology", edited by Stanley S. Beus and Michael Morales, published by the Oxford University  Press, 2003.  It contains 21 chapters, each one of which is written by one or more authorities in their respective fields.  Many have spent years studying the canyon geology.  I can't know for sure, but I suspect that provides a bit more insight to the canyon's formation than your couple of hikes through it.

You and others like you make these sorts of unintelligible uneducated geological, cosmological, biological and other assessments of nature claiming that your views come from God's word and then wonder why so many are leaving the faith.

: 4WD  Sun Aug 25, 2024 - 06:42:58You would do yourself a favor by getting ahold of "Grand Canyon Geology", edited by Stanley S. Beus and Michael Morales, published by the Oxford University  Press, 2003.  It contains 21 chapters, each one of which is written by one or more authorities in their respective fields.  Many have spent years studying the canyon geology.  I can't know for sure, but I suspect that provides a bit more insight to the canyon's formation than your couple of hikes through it.

You and others like you make these sorts of unintelligible uneducated geological, cosmological, biological and other assessments of nature claiming that your views come from God's word and then wonder why so many are leaving the faith.

As a world wide flood believer, I will also say I do not believe the Grand Canyon was carved from the Colorado river.

At the same time...I will say that if it came about during Noah's flood I also have a problem.

Other canyons similar to the Grand world wide have been described as
having rivers that carved them with no mention of a flood.

: 4WD  Sun Aug 25, 2024 - 06:42:58You would do yourself a favor by getting ahold of "Grand Canyon Geology", edited by Stanley S. Beus and Michael Morales, published by the Oxford University  Press, 2003.  It contains 21 chapters, each one of which is written by one or more authorities in their respective fields.  Many have spent years studying the canyon geology.  I can't know for sure, but I suspect that provides a bit more insight to the canyon's formation than your couple of hikes through it.

You and others like you make these sorts of unintelligible uneducated geological, cosmological, biological and other assessments of nature claiming that your views come from God's word and then wonder why so many are leaving the faith.

If people are "leaving the faith" because of posts like Buff's here I doubt they ever had saving faith in Jesus Christ.

: Texas Conservative  Sun Aug 25, 2024 - 09:45:33If people are "leaving the faith" because of posts like Buff's here I doubt they ever had saving faith in Jesus Christ.

No, but perhaps their parents did and spoke much like Buff did about things like the Grand Canyon.

If stuff like this gets their goat, why would they ever accept the virgin birth or the resurrection? If everything has to align with science or logic there is no room for the supernatural. If one demands such there can be no faith in such a one. And telling me that science and logic can't contemplate the supernatural, that is correct.
"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen", (or intellectually corroborated)

TO ALL OF YOU COMMENTARY CONTRIBUTORS:


Blessings,

Buff

: Jaime  Sun Aug 25, 2024 - 11:44:24If stuff like this gets their goat, why would they ever accept the virgin birth or the resurrection? If everything has to align with science or logic there is no room for the supernatural. If one demands such there can be no faith in such a one. And telling me that science and logic can't contemplate the supernatural, that is correct.
"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen", (or intellectually corroborated)

There is science and there are miracles. There is no contradiction in that.

: Reformer  Sun Aug 25, 2024 - 12:28:49TO ALL OF YOU COMMENTARY CONTRIBUTORS:

Of all the controversial issues relative to the creation of anything and everything, this one seems to be among the heaviest sought after and wrangled with. But "so be it," the Lord will settle all controversies in the end.

Blessings,

Buff

Will anyone really care at that point in time?

The canyon is actually pretty mysterious.  It's a very small portion of the canyon can actually be visited.  There's a couple approved trails that are confined to a few miles, a set helicopter ride you can take, and a few hotels. 

The rest of the canyon is "protected" either because it is either

(a) "too dangerous" (but I'm allowed to free climb the side of Picacho peak? (https://www.outside365.blog/blog/scaling-sheer-cliff-faces-and-80-year-old-cables-on-picacho-peak))

(b) "Federally owned land" (aren't National parks meant to be accessible to the public?)

(c) Sacred to Native American tribes (who are... also... not allowed to go there?)

But here's the thing...  should you try to go exploring yourself... it isn't some poor park ranger that shows up to scold you... it's black helicopters with military specs.

So naturally there are a million different theories on about what's down there that we aren't allowed to see. ::smile::

There are preserved skeletons of giants that the government is hiding?

: 4WD  Sun Aug 25, 2024 - 20:36:41There is science and there are miracles. There is no contradiction in that.

Then "unscientific" miraculous occurrences shouldn't run anyone away from their faith! Unless of course they don't also believe in the miraculous and wouldn't need faith in their unnecessarily pius minds.

: Jaime  Mon Aug 26, 2024 - 12:11:13Then "unscientific" miraculous occurrences shouldn't run anyone away from their faith! Unless of course they don't also believe in the miraculous and wouldn't need faith in their unnecessarily pius minds.

Are your talking about an "unscientific" miraculous global flood that caused the Grand Canyon?  If so, then that is not what is happening. There is all indications that there was nothing miraculous about the Grand Canyon. There is a perfectly good explanation of its formation. The notion of the flood of Noah being global is simply a translation/interpretation of the Hebrew word "erets". Neither the virgin birth nor the resurrection depend in any way on the translation/interpretation of any Greek word.  There is a significant amount of specific descriptive narrative discussing both.

Would the  belief in the miraculous crossing of the Red Sea also risk steering people from their faith? I know of one that refuses to believe in God or the Bible because of that specific "fantasy", and others I'm sure. If it can't be explained by some natural process, it didn't happen in their minds. Therefore how is "faith" or trust in a supernatural God even possible for such people?

Wycliffes:




Buff

4WD:

: Reformer  Mon Aug 26, 2024 - 23:38:554WD:

One man's opinion: "The notion of the flood of Noah being global is simply a translation/interpretation of the Hebrew word 'erets.' "

Obvioualy not one man's opinion. There is only a relatively few, even among believers, who hold to the idea that the flood of Noah was global.

: Jaime  Mon Aug 26, 2024 - 14:41:16Would the  belief in the miraculous crossing of the Red Sea also risk steering people from their faith? I know of one that refuses to believe in God or the Bible because of that specific "fantasy", and others I'm sure. If it can't be explained by some natural process, it didn't happen in their minds. Therefore how is "faith" or trust in a supernatural God even possible for such people?

I do not question the that the flood of Noah was real. I believe it actually happened.  I also believe it was more than just an ordinary flood of a river overflowing its banks.  And I believe that it was fairly widespread.  But I do not believe that it was a global catastrophe. There is no physical evidence of any such global flood.

Buff wants to explain the Grand Canyon's formation by the flood of Noah. Was it caused when the flood came?  If so, when did the mile deep of over 40 separate and distinct sedentary rock layers get deposited which have been cut by flowing water?  If the layers were deposited during the flood, then the actual formation of the canyon must have been formed when the water receded. But receding flood waters do not carve canyons.

As an added note; some of those 40 rock layers are the result of an arid desert environment.  How does that happen during a flood?

And finally, I have not hiked the canyon from the top to the bottom or from rim to rim, but I have spent many days camping on both rims, with most of that time on the north rim. I have visited more of the rims than most since I have four wheeled much of the back country roads to the remote locations on the rims.

I live just about 125 miles south of the Grand Canyon.  When my wife and I travelled all over the west, the Grand Canyon was one of our favorite four- or five-day get-away camping spots.  Over the last 25 years here we visited the Canyon probably a dozen of more times. We have seen the Canyon in hot summer under bright sun and have even seen it in early snows in late fall conditions.  It is one of the most marvelous of God's magnificent views of this earth.  I am quite convinced that it was not carved by a flood some 4,500 years ago.

4WD:


Buff

: Reformer  Tue Aug 27, 2024 - 22:29:184WD:

You noted, "Buff wants to explain the Grand Canyon's formation by the flood of Noah."

That is not precisely what I believe. The entire earth experienced a spasmodic revolution or convulsion, such as the one described during the global flood of Noah's day, but it was not the worldwide floor that cut out the Canyon. It was the earth's convulsion.

During the flood and the convulsion associated with it, numerous canyons were created, including our Grand Canyon. But water-flow alone is not the creator of canyons. If it were so, why hasn't a canyon been created by the Nile River, as well as the Ohio River? Both Rivers, especially the Nile, are as old, or nearly as old, as the Colorado River.

Buff

First of all, where do you find the information about that "spasmodic revolution or convulsion" of the earth 4500 years ago?  That certainly is not something found in the biblical record or the geological record.

Second, there is nearly 8 feet/mile drop in average elevation between Lake Powell and Lake mead and much, much greater than that in long sections of the Colorado River in the heart of the canyon.  There is a reason why the Colorado is such a favorite for running rapids.  And the basic geology is layers of limestone and sandstone which is very susceptible to water erosion.

The Mississippi drops less than a 700 feet in the over 2000 miles between Minneapolis and the Gulf of Mexico or about 4 inches/mile average.

It seems pretty obvious that you have not read anything about the actual geology of the Grand Canyon and the surrounding region of the Colorado Plateau.

I have never heard of a "spasmodic revolution or convulsion" in regards to a worldwide flood.

TEXAS CONSERVATIVE:

That's okay. You're not too old yet to learn. "Stay at it!."

Buff

4WD:


Buff

: Reformer  Wed Aug 28, 2024 - 12:21:25TEXAS CONSERVATIVE:

That's okay. You're not too old yet to learn. "Stay at it!."

Buff

No one can learn, if the person claiming something doesn't provide proof for their assertions.

So, what are the proofs and reasons behind your assertion?

Buff

: Reformer  Wed Aug 28, 2024 - 22:09:49

Texas Conservative:

My "proofs," brother, would not likely change your negativism toward most of what I post—as well as many of the posts of others. Just how often do you compliment someone—or anyone—for their doctrinal submissions? Do you ever consider the possibility of being in error?

You may not accept this as valid, but there have been a whole host of occasions when I have openly and publicly admitted to being in error. When I reach a time in my life when I declare perfection, it will be at that stage when I have lost my mental marbles.

Buff

Provide your reasoning for this "spasmodic convulsion" theory or be quiet.

Your personal attack and deflection instead of providing your reasoning is telling.

: Reformer  Wed Aug 28, 2024 - 12:41:20As noted yesterday: "If it were so, why hasn't a canyon been created by the Nile River, as well as the Ohio River? Both Rivers, especially the Nile, are as old, or nearly as old, as the Colorado River.

You didn't even read what I wrote.  If you had, you wouldn't have repeated your nonsense.

: 4WD  Thu Aug 29, 2024 - 06:08:49You didn't even read what I wrote.  If you had, you wouldn't have repeated your nonsense.

On my way to the therapy place where mom is, but could not resist posting this.

MAKE SURE TO CLICK THE LINK AND LOOK AT THE GORGEOUS PICTURES THAT I DONT HAVE TIME TO POST.....

12 Most Stunning Canyons and Gorges in the World
By Mike Kaplan · Last updated on June 17, 2024

Canyons or gorges are one of nature's natural wonders carved out over eons by fast moving rivers. Most canyons were formed by a process of long-time erosion from a plateau level. The cliffs form because harder rock that are resistant to erosion and weathering remain exposed on the valley walls. Canyons offer some of the most dramatic landscapes on earth (and even in the solar system), not only for the sheer size but also for the beauty that often lie hidden beneath the ground.

Note: The word canyon is generally used in the United States, while the word gorge is more common in Europe.

Table of Contents

https://www.touropia.com/canyons-of-the-world/

: Rella  Thu Aug 29, 2024 - 09:05:59On my way to the therapy place where mom is, but could not resist posting this.

MAKE SURE TO CLICK THE LINK AND LOOK AT THE GORGEOUS PICTURES THAT I DONT HAVE TIME TO POST.....

Yes, and think you for that.

TEXAS CONSERVATIVE:


Buff

: Texas Conservative  Mon Aug 26, 2024 - 04:43:42There are preserved skeletons of giants that the government is hiding?

Probably not, but that is one of the rumors ::smile::

: 4WD  Thu Aug 29, 2024 - 06:08:49You didn't even read what I wrote.  If you had, you wouldn't have repeated your nonsense.

4WD, you may wish to review this statement again, posted in #22.


Buff

: Reformer  Thu Aug 29, 2024 - 12:58:264WD, you may wish to review this statement again, posted in #22.

"it seems pretty obvious that you have not read anything about the actual geology of the Grand Canyon and the surrounding region of the Colorado Plateau in the scriptures."

Buff

You want me to search the scriptures for something about the actual geology of the Grand Canyon and the surrounding region of the Colorado Plateau.  I did a word search and neither the Grand Canyon nor the Colorado Plateau turned up.

Buff

: Reformer  Sun Aug 25, 2024 - 00:45:13

The Massive Grand Canyon—It's Geneses

Buff Scott, Jr.

The common view is that the Canyon was cut out by the Colorado River over a period of millions of years. This evolutionary view is widely taught, and our children are being subjected to it in school at a young age. It is my conception the evolutionary view is full of loopholes and inconsistencies.

Let's approach this controversial issue with a little bit of common intelligence. The Nile River in Egypt is as old as the Colorado River, perhaps even older. If age and continual flow are the key factors, why hasn't the Nile River cut out a canyon as awesome, or at least similar to, the Grand Canyon? Then there's the Mississippi, the Ohio, the Rio Grande, and many other old waterways. Why haven't they hewed out canyons?

The answer, I think, is obvious. Time and continual flow have little if anything to do with canyons whose walls are sheer rock, like the Grand Canyon. And we'll even allow for a little erosion along the way. That still doesn't cut it, however. For if erosion carved out the Grand Canyon, why hasn't erosion carved out other old waterways, thus forming canyons of them? Again, age and continual flow have little to do with canyons whose walls are compacted rock.

THE CANYON'S INNER GORGES
If you have ever hiked the Canyon, you have observed, as I have, thousands of inner gorges—all solid rock. Many of them are as deep and as high as the Canyon itself. Now tell me: If the Colorado River is responsible for carving out the Grand Canyon, how did the inner gorges develop?

The great Colorado could not have shaped them. The raging billows of the river would have by-passed them. I can see the river's back-flow pervading the gorges at one time, at least fractionally, but carving them out? No way! And I'm allowing for a small fraction of erosion in the process. Erosion, however, is not the author of the inner gorges, or of the Canyon itself. We must look for a greater source than erosion.

I have hiked the Grand Canyon a number of times, all the way to the floor and back. Of all the Canyon excursions, I have never once viewed any evidence that the Colorado River is responsible for carving out such an awesome gully. I have seen, however, layer upon layer of solidified sediment, one placed upon the other, caused by a violent revolution of the Earth, when a worldwide catastrophe in the form of a flood occurred, such as the one described in chapters 6-8 of the Book of Genesis.

"All the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened. And rain fell upon the earth forty days and forty nights" [Genesis 7:11-12].

VERTICALLY INLAID SEDIMENTS
During the Summer of 2000, my two sons, a grandson, and I hiked the Grand Canyon from rim-to-rim. We hiked out on the 14-mile North Kaibab Trail. Usually, layer upon layer of solidified sediment form the Canyon's sheer walls. On our trek this time, we saw unique rock formations we had not seen previously. Instead of horizontal layers of solidified sediment that are found throughout the Canyon, we observed many solidified sediments that are vertically inlaid.

We also noticed that the major rock formations had vertical sheer markings rather than diagonal, as one would expect from a flowing river. I wondered to myself: How do evolutionists and atheists explain this aside from a violent revolution of the Earth, "when all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of heaven were opened, and rain fell upon the earth forty days and forty nights" [Genesis 7:11-12].

A GEOLOGICAL FACT
Consequently, it seems the sedimentary layers of the Grand Canyon were deposited by the violent upheaval of the global flood in Noah's day. When we ponder the geological fact that in different parts of the world young strata, which should be at the top of rock layers, are at or toward the bottom (called "flip-flopped" or "reversed strata"), we are compelled to admit that at one time the earth experienced a spasmodic revolution or convulsion, such as the one described during the global flood of Noah's day. But whatever happened, God was behind it. And it seemed to have come about quickly, not over a period of millions of years. On that note, I have no doubt.

Very good article..

: Rella  Sun Aug 25, 2024 - 08:51:27As a world wide flood believer, I will also say I do not believe the Grand Canyon was carved from the Colorado river.

At the same time...I will say that if it came about during Noah's flood I also have a problem.

Other canyons similar to the Grand world wide have been described as
having rivers that carved them with no mention of a flood.

Well, if its a 'world wide' flood, they too would have been carved out at that time..

: Reformer  Thu Aug 29, 2024 - 12:49:30TEXAS CONSERVATIVE:

In Post #25, said, "Provide your reasoning for this 'spasmodic convulsion' theory or be quiet."

Not once have I attributed my expression, "spasmodic convulsion," as a direct uttering from the scriptures. Based on my biblical and non-biblical research of the Flood in Noah's day, I concluded my expression was accurate.

The entire Earth was affected by the flood, in a diversity of ways. Even human history agrees. Geneses 7:19 speaks of "the waters prevailed so mightily on the earth that all the high mountains under the whole heaven were covered."

What do you think might be interpreted from the term "mightily"? We all, including you, often in our biblical conversations use vocabulary not specifically found in the scriptures. But we usually understand what is being alluded to.

And please don't tell me to be quiet. My freedom of speech is as valid as yours. You may not agree with what I say or indicate, but I certainly have the freedom to say it.

Buff

You spend more time defending yourself, than your ideas. 

Your "preacher-ese" won't work here

: Texas Conservative  Fri Aug 30, 2024 - 07:07:38You spend more time defending yourself, than your ideas. 

Your "preacher-ese" won't work here

TEXAS CONSERVATIVE


In other words, according to you I'm making false unproven assertions.

: Hobie  Fri Aug 30, 2024 - 00:49:25Well, if its a 'world wide' flood, they too would have been carved out at that time..

This is not a flood discussion... it is about what was carved by a river... not the upheaval of water pushing up...

In every scientific hoopla about rivers carving ... there never is a mention of potential upheaval of volcanic activity... tye the Grand Canyon has lava rock to be found all over.

Im surprised scientist never said there is no activity now cause the Colorado river extinguished them over the years...

: Texas Conservative  Sun Aug 25, 2024 - 09:45:33If people are "leaving the faith" because of posts like Buff's here I doubt they ever had saving faith in Jesus Christ.

It's a very well known fact that many peoples issues with Christianity are Christians themselves. The lunacy purported by the anti-evolutionists and anti-science cults are enough to turn anyone off aside from those that were well versed in Jesus himself. 

: Alan  Sat Aug 31, 2024 - 08:12:43It's a very well known fact that many peoples issues with Christianity are Christians themselves. The lunacy purported by the anti-evolutionists and anti-science cults are enough to turn anyone off aside from those that were well versed in Jesus himself.

It is a well known scripturally established teaching and doctrine, that the majority of this world will reject the plain testimony and truths of holy scripture. It is therefore no surprise that many will turn away from conclusively stated bible truths, unto the speculative fables and fairy tales of prideful fallen humanity. Just as holy scripture has predicted and portrayed.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

: Alan  Sat Aug 31, 2024 - 08:12:43It's a very well known fact that many peoples issues with Christianity are Christians themselves. The lunacy purported by the anti-evolutionists and anti-science cults are enough to turn anyone off aside from those that were well versed in Jesus himself.

People's issues with Christianity are the teachings of Jesus.

Every other thing (the well known fact you mentioned) is just an excuse. 

Luke 12:49-53
[49]"I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled!
[50]But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished!
[51]Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division;
[52]for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three.
[53]They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."

: Reformer  Fri Aug 30, 2024 - 18:57:11TEXAS CONSERVATIVE

As a means of clarification regarding false accusations, you said in Post# 23, "No one can learn, if the person claiming something doesn't provide proof for their assertions. So, what are the proofs and reasons behind your assertion?"

In other words, according to you I'm making false unproven assertions.

In other words, you are making assertions without any proof to back up your claims.

: Texas Conservative  Sat Aug 31, 2024 - 09:21:06In other words, you are making assertions without any proof to back up your claims.

: Texas Conservative  Mon Aug 26, 2024 - 04:43:42There are preserved skeletons of giants that the government is hiding?

WS is not far off the beaten path.  They are supposed to be our parks, but the Forest Service tells you that you are not allowed to go off-trail.  Why?  If the parks belong to us, then why are we not allowed to go where we want to in them?  I can only speak to the parks in Arizona, but they have gotten more and more draconian when it comes to enforcing their "can't go there" laws that make absolutely no sense.  The Grand Canyon is basically one big Forbidden Zone, and not just on the ground, but for it's air space as well.  People die on the Bright Angel trail all the time and that's totally OK, but the other areas are too dangerous.  Or hiking there would have too much of a negative "impact."  But the Havasupai can turn their own tourist trap into a big garbage dump.  They also continue to try and curtail access to more and more of the Superstition  Mountains.  The USFS excuses for why they restrict so much access in National parks, beyond Yellowstone are unconvincing.

: Cobalt1959  Sun Sep 01, 2024 - 03:03:47WS is not far off the beaten path.  They are supposed to be our parks, but the Forest Service tells you that you are not allowed to go off-trail.  Why?  If the parks belong to us, then why are we not allowed to go where we want to in them?  I can only speak to the parks in Arizona, but they have gotten more and more draconian when it comes to enforcing their "can't go there" laws that make absolutely no sense.  The Grand Canyon is basically one big Forbidden Zone, and not just on the ground, but for it's air space as well.  People die on the Bright Angel trail all the time and that's totally OK, but the other areas are too dangerous.  Or hiking there would have too much of a negative "impact."  But the Havasupai can turn their own tourist trap into a big garbage dump.  They also continue to try and curtail access to more and more of the Superstition  Mountains.  The USFS excuses for why they restrict so much access in National parks, beyond Yellowstone are unconvincing.

What is the excuse for the rest of the world where no evidence of giants have been found?  rofl

This is sort of unrelated, but disturbing about some of our parks and monuments, etc.

http://www.vlrc.org/articles/79.html (http://www.vlrc.org/articles/79.html)

: Alan  Tue Sep 03, 2024 - 07:23:05What is the excuse for the rest of the world where no evidence of giants have been found?  rofl

Why do we have to turn all of the topics into something about giants?  ::frown::  Is that thread contagious or something?

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Wed Sep 04, 2024 - 12:29:46Why do we have to turn all of the topics into something about giants?  ::frown::  Is that thread contagious or something?

I wonder if those giants believed that baptism is for the remission of sins?

: Texas Conservative  Wed Sep 04, 2024 - 16:44:48I wonder if those giants believed that baptism is for the remission of sins?

They would have if they were Pauline giants. Especially if washing away sins equals remission of sin. Acts 22:16.

https://revivedlife.com/is-remission-and-forgiveness-of-sins-the-same/amp/

: Alan  Tue Sep 03, 2024 - 07:23:05What is the excuse for the rest of the world where no evidence of giants have been found?  rofl

https://www.sciencealert.com/archaeologists-discover-the-ancient-remains-of-5-000-year-old-giants-in-china

The Ancient Remains of 5,000-Year-Old 'Giants' Discovered in China

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/graveyard-giants-found-china-180963976/

Graveyard of "Giants" Found in China
Many of the 5,000 year-old skeletons measured 5' 9" or longer, making the Neolithic humans exceptionally tall for that period


https://medium.com/understanding-reality/7-examples-of-proof-that-giants-existed-7e2de8806a0f

1. The Giants of Ecuador

Ecuadorian Giant Skeleton on display in a museum

In 2013, after heavy storms in Ecuador, a large female skull was found in Aloha province. Scientists determined the skull was approximately 600 years old. The discovery of the skull inspired a search for the rest of the skeleton, the parts of which were found and assembled a few weeks later. The skeleton stood at 7ft 4" tall, which was astounding, considering that the average height of a woman in those days was only 5ft 8".

Further research lead to the discovery of 5 more giant skeletons in the same area. All of the skeletons were between 7–8 feet tall, and were buried in deep, elaborate graves. They were found at two separate sites, leading scientists to conclude they were probably from two different tribes.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/121102-gigantism-ancient-skeleton-archaeology-history-science-rome

Ancient Roman Giant Found—Oldest Complete Skeleton With Gigantism
At six feet, eight inches, he would have towered over his contemporaries.

ByChristine Dell'Amore

It's no tall tale—the first complete ancient skeleton of a person with gigantism has been discovered near Rome, a new study says.

At 6 feet, 8 inches (202 centimeters) tall, the man would have been a giant in third-century A.D. Rome, where men averaged about 5 and a half feet (167 centimeters) tall. By contrast, today's tallest man measures 8 feet, 3 inches (251 centimeters).

So... conclusion.

There were no giants.


Then do the following mean other things can be discounted in the Holy Book?


Genesis 6:4 ~ The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.

Numbers 13:33 ~ And there we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak, who come from the Nephilim), and we seemed to ourselves like grasshoppers, and so we seemed to them."

Deuteronomy 1:28 ~ Where are we going up? Our brothers have made our hearts melt, saying, "The people are greater and taller than we. The cities are great and fortified up to heaven. And besides, we have seen the sons of the Anakim there."'

Deuteronomy 3:11 ~ (For only Og the king of Bashan was left of the remnant of the Rephaim. Behold, his bed was a bed of iron. Is it not in Rabbah of the Ammonites? Nine cubits was its length, and four cubits its breadth, according to the common cubit.)

2 Samuel 21:18 ~ After this there was again war with the Philistines at Gob. Then Sibbecai the Hushathite struck down Saph, who was one of the descendants of the giants.

Deuteronomy 2:21 ~ A people great and many, and tall as the Anakim; but the Lord destroyed them before the Ammonites, and they dispossessed them and settled in their place.

: Texas Conservative  Wed Sep 04, 2024 - 16:44:48I wonder if those giants believed that baptism is for the remission of sins?

ATTENTION:


Buff

: Reformer  Thu Sep 05, 2024 - 22:32:53ATTENTION:

By the way, how did we wander so far from the initial topic, "The Massive Grand Canyon"?

Buff

The same question might could be asked of Christianity at large about the subject of baptism.

 ::peeking::

: Reformer  Thu Sep 05, 2024 - 22:28:41

Peter had something to say about that in Acts 2:38. Your interpretation?

One interpretation: Immersion in water confirms that one has accepted Jesus, not finalizing it.

So  Peter said that "  Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."?????????????/

And someone twisted that to " Immersion in water confirms that one has accepted Jesus, not finalizing it.

If we were to assume this suggested interpretation to be true...
then they , I would bet, are an anti-trin believer.

Question. Does God know every thought and in our minds and feeling in our heart and beliefs in our very souls?

ATTENTION:

: Rella  Thu Sep 05, 2024 - 17:48:44https://www.sciencealert.com/archaeologists-discover-the-ancient-remains-of-5-000-year-old-giants-in-china

The Ancient Remains of 5,000-Year-Old 'Giants' Discovered in China

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/graveyard-giants-found-china-180963976/

Graveyard of "Giants" Found in China
Many of the 5,000 year-old skeletons measured 5' 9" or longer, making the Neolithic humans exceptionally tall for that period


https://medium.com/understanding-reality/7-examples-of-proof-that-giants-existed-7e2de8806a0f

1. The Giants of Ecuador

Ecuadorian Giant Skeleton on display in a museum

In 2013, after heavy storms in Ecuador, a large female skull was found in Aloha province. Scientists determined the skull was approximately 600 years old. The discovery of the skull inspired a search for the rest of the skeleton, the parts of which were found and assembled a few weeks later. The skeleton stood at 7ft 4" tall, which was astounding, considering that the average height of a woman in those days was only 5ft 8".

Further research lead to the discovery of 5 more giant skeletons in the same area. All of the skeletons were between 7–8 feet tall, and were buried in deep, elaborate graves. They were found at two separate sites, leading scientists to conclude they were probably from two different tribes.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/121102-gigantism-ancient-skeleton-archaeology-history-science-rome

Ancient Roman Giant Found—Oldest Complete Skeleton With Gigantism
At six feet, eight inches, he would have towered over his contemporaries.

ByChristine Dell'Amore

It's no tall tale—the first complete ancient skeleton of a person with gigantism has been discovered near Rome, a new study says.

At 6 feet, 8 inches (202 centimeters) tall, the man would have been a giant in third-century A.D. Rome, where men averaged about 5 and a half feet (167 centimeters) tall. By contrast, today's tallest man measures 8 feet, 3 inches (251 centimeters).

So... conclusion.

There were no giants.


Then do the following mean other things can be discounted in the Holy Book?


Genesis 6:4 ~ The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.

Numbers 13:33 ~ And there we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak, who come from the Nephilim), and we seemed to ourselves like grasshoppers, and so we seemed to them."

Deuteronomy 1:28 ~ Where are we going up? Our brothers have made our hearts melt, saying, "The people are greater and taller than we. The cities are great and fortified up to heaven. And besides, we have seen the sons of the Anakim there."'

Deuteronomy 3:11 ~ (For only Og the king of Bashan was left of the remnant of the Rephaim. Behold, his bed was a bed of iron. Is it not in Rabbah of the Ammonites? Nine cubits was its length, and four cubits its breadth, according to the common cubit.)

2 Samuel 21:18 ~ After this there was again war with the Philistines at Gob. Then Sibbecai the Hushathite struck down Saph, who was one of the descendants of the giants.

Deuteronomy 2:21 ~ A people great and many, and tall as the Anakim; but the Lord destroyed them before the Ammonites, and they dispossessed them and settled in their place.

My suspicions have been confirmed - the "Giants" topic is INDEED contagious and spreading.  Initiating CDC-recommended lockdown measures...

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Fri Sep 06, 2024 - 13:48:04My suspicions have been confirmed - the "Giants" topic is INDEED contagious and spreading.  Initiating CDC-recommended lockdown measures...

Just wear a mask

: Alan  Tue Sep 03, 2024 - 07:23:05What is the excuse for the rest of the world where no evidence of giants have been found?  rofl

I find your response odd, and also a non sequitur, since I said absolutely nothing about giants.  How could you possibly divine from my post that I believed there were giants in the Grand Canyon?  I was speaking to the fact that our park service routinely bars us from entering large areas of our national parks that are supposed be our land.  They do this with no explanation and they do it with open hostility to those who don't think our access should be restricted.

But, of course, the forum still operates in the way it has for the last five years or so.  3 people actively preach patently false doctrines and worldly nonsense and then openly insult people who disagree with them.  You are one of those people and you are a moderator.  And you wonder why the board is a ghost town with maybe 10 people who actively post and 3 or 4 of those are drive-bys.  Go look in the mirror.  Your superior attitude and poor behavior are why the board is dead.  When it croaks for good, I'll send flowers.

: Cobalt1959  Sat Sep 07, 2024 - 03:11:19I find your response odd, and also a non sequitur, since I said absolutely nothing about giants.  How could you possibly divine from my post that I believed there were giants in the Grand Canyon?  I was speaking to the fact that our park service routinely bars us from entering large areas of our national parks that are supposed be our land.  They do this with no explanation and they do it with open hostility to those who don't think our access should be restricted.

But, of course, the forum still operates in the way it has for the last five years or so.  3 people actively preach patently false doctrines and worldly nonsense and then openly insult people who disagree with them.  You are one of those people and you are a moderator.  And you wonder why the board is a ghost town with maybe 10 people who actively post and 3 or 4 of those are drive-bys.  Go look in the mirror.  Your superior attitude and poor behavior are why the board is dead.  When it croaks for good, I'll send flowers.

Buff

: Reformer  Thu Aug 29, 2024 - 21:35:42

4WD:

My statement was in reference to your Post #19, "First of all, where do you find the information about that 'spasmodic revolution or convulsion' of the earth 4500 years ago?  That certainly is not something found in the biblical record or the geological record."

Nor will you specifically find my "spasmodic revolution or convulsion." But it is certainly inferred in the biblical story of the Flood. Now I think we might be  understanding each other better.

Buff

You know... by this time maybe we all should be aware but when any mention of the flood occurs I think it should be mentioned if you are a world wide believer of a regional believer. ::bagonface::