The Mark of the Beast will be implemented and the whole world will follow after the Beast in its work or setting its mark, in a world wide law. The Bible declares that before the coming of the Lord, Satan will work "with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness;" and they that "received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved," will be left to receive "strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."
2 Thessalonians 2:9-11
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
In the issue of the Mark of the Beast the world will be divided into two great classes, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and those who worship the beast and his image and receive his mark. We know that the apostate church and the power of the state will unite in power to compel "all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond" , to receive "the mark of the beast," yet the people of God will not receive it.
Revelation 13:11-16
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
As the seal of God, the Sabbath has become the special point of controversy throughout Christendom, and religious and secular authorities have combined to enforce the observance of the Sunday, the Mark of the Beast. But the refusal of a small minority, a remnant, to yield to the popular demand will come to a head. It will be urged that the few who stand in opposition to this day of the apostate church and a law of the state ought not to be tolerated; that it is better for them to be taken out than for all the nations to be thrown into confusion and their interpretation of the rule of law be ignored. The same argument was brought against Christ by the "rulers of the people." "It is expedient for us," said Caiaphas, "that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not."
John 11:49-50
49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
So how do church and state unite to bring this world wide law of Sunday keeping, well, its already in the works. The UN is pushing it as well as the apostate church and the "new" commandments could include a worldwide day of rest....as in, a Sabbath, yet it would be on another day.
The Pope is at the center of this idea and his Laudato Si Treaty is at the center of this movement, with the world governments being brought together in agreement. In October 2021, Pope Francis and other religious leaders made a joint appeal for leaders of COP 26 to take concrete steps to save the planet from a climate crisis. These steps support the Paris Agreements and Agenda 2030, whose goals are to reduce carbon emissions at any cost. They went forward with the advocation of the creation of a Green Sabbath, where each person is required to "give the environment a break one day a week", and Climate Sundays where they preach the religion of climate change.
Here is what they want to do..
"One day a week, minimize the need for more goods, minimize the use of natural resources, minimize the emission of carbon dioxide and other pollutants.
The Sabbath is said to be a foretaste of the world to come (Babylonian Talmud, Berakhot 57b). Literally. If you care about our future, about your well-being, observe a real sabbath day of rest. It helps cultivate community, self-discipline, inner calm and contentment. One powerful weapon in the fight against environmental deterioration and climate disaster may just be an age-old spiritual technology"
https://www.greensabbathproject.net/
And we see the power behind it..
"In January 2024, a Washington Post article in the climate section, titled "Why Reviving a 2,600-Year-Old Spiritual Practice Made My Life Better," pointed to Pope Francis' argument about "Sunday in his 2015 'Laudato Si,' an encyclical about caring for the natural world. Not resting is not just bad for the soul, he says, but it's also bad for the Earth. The constant drive to produce and consume more is squandering natural resources, and it prevents us from treating the living world, and one another, with dignity and respect. The Sabbath forces us to consider how we spend all our days.
"Sunday, like the Jewish Sabbath, is meant to be a day which heals our relationships with God, with ourselves, with others and with the world."
Pope Francis was expanding on the Catholic teaching that Sunday is sacred, trying to give it new meaning for a modern audience in a secular age."
https://lifehopeandtruth.com/prophecy/prophecy-in-the-news/a-green-sabbath-or-gods-sabbath/
Dan 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. 41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
Just wondering what your thoughts are concerning those above, that escape the king of the north, at the end of time. It certainly does not appear to be God's own, Israel.
: Amo Sat Oct 12, 2024 - 10:10:13Dan 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. 41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
Just wondering what your thoughts are concerning those above, that escape the king of the north, at the end of time. It certainly does not appear to be God's own, Israel.
We were taking a look at that, and I am looking at Islam and the nations under the Papal influence such as the UN. So at the time of the end, Israel is overcome by the rule of international forces and they dont care about those places or other people related to them (other believers?). We see this beginning with the rulings and bias against Israel..
https://www.icj-cij.org/node/204176#:~:text=On%20the%20basis%20of%20the,its%20obligations%20under%20international%20law.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/7/19/world-court-says-israels-settlement-policies-breach-international-law
https://www.jpost.com/international/article-825935
This has some interesting view on this, look to the end..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggxbk38zpNg
I've been leaning toward the ten final kings who give their power over to the beast, being ten international organizations that most of the world will eventually submit to. Those who escape the king of the north therefore, being those who never submit to these international organizations, who usurp the elective authority of the people of subjected nations. I'll check out your latest link when time permits. Thanks.
: Amo Mon Oct 28, 2024 - 07:50:40I've been leaning toward the ten final kings who give their power over to the beast, being ten international organizations that most of the world will eventually submit to. Those who escape the king of the north therefore, being those who never submit to these international organizations, who usurp the elective authority of the people of subjected nations. I'll check out your latest link when time permits. Thanks.
Take a look at this article from the Review and Herald, and note what it says at the 'a god whom are fathers knew not' near the end...
"l. The pioneers of this movement were for the first twenty-five or thirty years of our history unanimous in stating that papal Rome is the power referred to by the prophet Daniel in these verses. No other conclusion could be reached after a careful study of the literature of the church during this period. William Miller held this view as far back as 1842 (see Evidences From Scripture and Prophecy, by ]. V. Himes, pp. 97, 98). This was the interpretation presented by James White on many occasions, the first being in A Word to the "Little Flock," published in 1847, pages 8, 9. He says: "Michael is to stand up at the time that the last power in chap. 11, comes to his end, and none to help him. This power is the last that treads down the true church of God. . . . This last power that treads down the saints is brought to view in Rev. 13:11-18. His number is 666." Later, in the Review and Herald of November 29, 1877, James White defends this exposition of the text as follows: "Let us take a brief view of the line of prophecy four times spanned in the book of Daniel. It will be admitted that the same ground is passed over in chapters two, seven, eight, and eleven, with this exception that Babylon is left out of chapters eight and eleven. Th'e first pass down the great image of chapter two, "?here Babylon, Persia, Greece, and o r r. . brass, and the iron. All agree that these feet are not Turkish but Roman. And as we pass down, the lion, the bear, the leopard, and the beast with ten horns, representing the same as the great image, again all will agree that it is not Turkey that is cast into the burning flame, but the Roman beast. So of chapter eight, all agree that the little horn that stood up against the Prince of princes is not Turkey but Rome. In all these three lines thus far Rome is the last form of government mentioned. "J\'ow comes the point in the argument upon which very much depends. Does the eleventh chapter of the prophecy of Daniel cover the ground measured by chapters two_. seven, and eight? If so, then the last power mentioned in that chapter is Rome."
Elder White at the same time advised caution in giving a positive' interpretation of unfilled prophecy. He also warns against "removing the landmarks fully established in the advent movement." This article leaves no doubt that James 'ii\Thite considered in 1877 that the power referred to in Daniel ll :36-39 is papal Rome and that this was a landmark "fully established in the advent movement."
Even Uriah Smith, who later departed from this view, in an editorial in the Review and Herald, May 13, 1862, under the title "Will the Pope Remove the Papal Seat to Jerusalem?" refers to the Papacy as the power in Daniel 11:45. He quotes a statement from the Liverpool Mercury in which it is stated that a certain plan was under way which "points to the realizing of Pio Nono's favorite plan of removing the seat of the Papacy to Jerusalem." This is commented on by Uriah Smith as follows: "Is not the above item significant, taken in connection with Daniel XI, 45?" This statement confirms the fact that there was virtual unanimity among the leaders of the church with respect to our denominational teaching; namely, that Rome in its papal form is the power referred to in Daniel 11:36-39, and that papal Rome is also one of the powers referred to in the later verses of Daniel II. 2. Adventists take for granted today what James White emphasized in 1877 and 1878: that the prophecies of Daniel, chapters 2, 7, 8, and ll, show remarkable parallels in treating of Rome. The committee felt that the evidence that there is a parallelism between chapter 11 and the earlier chapters of Daniel has been established beyond a reasonable doubt. The eleventh chapter presents a literal exposition of the symbolic prophecies of Daniel 2, 7, and 8. It is generally agreed among Seventh-day Adventist Bible students that the "king" of Daniel MARCH, 1954 7:24, 25, and Daniel 8:23-25 refers to the Roman Catholic power, which accurately fulfills the propeucsym it was the conviction of the committee that where the "king" is again mentioned in Daniel 11:36 and described in almost identical language it could not represent a new power like France or Turkey not previously presented by Daniel in his prophetic outline, and that it would be most reasonable and in harmony with the prophetic outline of the rest of the chapter to conclude that the "king" in these and following verses also refers to papal Rome. The committee felt that a careful study of Daniel ll: 36-39 reveals outstanding characteristics of the Papacy and a remarkably clear picture of the cunning flattery and deceit of this power in its historical activities and its religious practices. These verses parallel not only the above-mentioned verses in Daniel 7 and 8 but also 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Revelation 13:5, 6. It was therefore the unanimous conclusion of the committee that, both historically and according to a sound exegesis of the text, Daniel 11:36-39 must refer to the papal power, and further, that these verses are parallel to Daniel 7:24, 25, a~d Daniel 8:23-25, which have always been cons1dered by the Seventh-day Adventist ministry as referring to the Papacy. 3. The committee also studied the possible causes that prompted Uriah Smith and others to depart from this historic denominational interpretation, substituting the history of France during the French Revolution for papal Rome as fulfilling Daniel 11:35, 36, and Turkey as the power in later verses, as well as the results of this shift of position in our denominational teaching. Some of the causes for the shift of position were found to be:
a. The complete loss of temporal power by the Papacy in 1870, resulting in Pius X proclaiming himself a "prisoner in the Vatican." For example, Uriah Smith states in the 1873 edition of Thoughts on Daniel in referring to the events of 1870, which he believed knocked "the last prop from under the papacy": "Victor Emmanuel, seizing his opportunity to carry out the long-cherished dream of a United Italy, seized Rome to make it the capital of his kingdom. To his troops, under General Cadorna, Rome surrendered, September 20, 1870. Then the last vestige of temporal power departed, nevermore, said Victor Emmanuel, to be restored; and the Pope has been virtually a prisoner in his own palace since that time. . . . The last vestige of temporal power was swept from his grasp."Pages 146, 147.
b. The conviction expressed in the secular and religious press that the Papacy had fallen to rise no more. This led Uriah Smith to state in the 1883 edition of Thoughts on Daniel: "The attempt which some make to bring in the Papacy here (that is, in Daniel ll:36-45) is so evidently wide of the mark that its consideration need not detain us."-Page 383.
c. The bringing of France, Turkey, and Egypt into the interpretation of these verses, and those following, seemed to bring a series of current events into the fulfillment of the prophecy, which to those who advocated it gave "great confirmation of faith in the soon loud cry and close of our message." (Comment by James White on the new theories, Review and Herald, November 29, 1877.)
d. Russian armies seemed about ready to close in on Constantinople, and the world press was full of declarations that the "sick man of the East" would soon be expelled from Europe. Uriah Smith, it seems, reflected the popular Protestant and secular viewpoint as he wrote under the title, "Turkish Empire's Downfall," and similar titles, during the last quarter of the nineteenth century.
e. Earlier Protestant commentators, such as Bishop Newton, Adam Clarke, and others, had generally held that the Ottoman Empire was one of the powers designated in Daniel 11:40-45, and events in the decade from 1870 to 1880 seemed undeniably to substantiate this line of reasoning, with current history pointing in the same direction.
f. Uriah Smith was evidently not in agreement with James White, who gave definite warnings that the positions being taken on the Eastern question were based on prophecies that had not yet met their fulfillment. White said, "But what will be the result of the positiveness in unfulfilled prophecies should things not come as very confidently expected, is an anxious question." (Emphasis his. James White in Review and Herald, Nov. 29, 1877.) He then proceeded to point out the parallel between Daniel II and the prophecies of Daniel in earlier chapters that were to him convincing proof "that the last power mentioned in that chapter is Rome!'
James White's position was clearly stated in 1878 as follows: "And there is a line of historic prophecy in chapter eleven, where the symbols are thrown off, beginning with the kings of Persia, and reaching down past Grecia and Rome, to the time when that power 'shall come to his end, and none shall help him.' If the feet and ten toes of the metallic image are Roman, if the beast with ten horns that was given to the burning flames of the great day be the Roman beast, if the little hom which stood up against the Prince of princes be Rome, and if the Page 24 same field and distance are covered by these four prophetic chains, then the last power of the eleventh chapter, which is to 'come to his end and none shall help him,' is Rome. But if this be Turkey, as some teach, then the toes of the image of the second chapter are Turkish, the beast with ten horns of the seventh chapter represents Turkey, and it was Turkey that stood up against the Prince of princes of the eighth chapter of Daniel. True, Turkey is bad enough off; but its waning power and its end is the subject of the prophecy of John and not of Daniel." -Review and Herald, Oct. 3, 1878, p. 116.
The committee therefore concluded that the change from the earlier views held by the denomination came about largely under the direction of Uriah Smith. In light of current political developments of the time, together with the apparent recession of the Papacy into a position of nonpotency in the political and religious world, he presented very ably and with deep conviction :what seemed to him the more reasonable interpretation of the text in question. This view, as taught by Uriah Smith, was published in our periodicals and more permanently in the book Thoughts on Daniel and the Revelation, written by Smith about this time. This book had a wide circulation and was a large factor in bringing possibly thousands into the truth. Its interpretation of the prophecies was very largely in harmony with former Seventh- day Adventist teachings. It became, therefore, to a large majority of our ministers and laymen the accepted interpretation of all the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation. During the years it came to be looked upon as our official denominational teaching. The fact that it differed in some respects from the position of the pioneers was almost lost from view. Not until the events so confidently predicted did not materialize, and the Papacy, instead of having "fallen to rise no more," again became a decisive influence in international affairs with a resumption of temporal power in 1929, did our Bible students undertake a re-examination of our denominational interpretation of these prophecies. Our earlier teaching was then rediscovered, together with the explicit warnings given by Elder White and others concerning the newer views advocated by Elder Smith. These findings, with the realization that current historical events had failed to develop along the lines expected, convinced many of our ministers and Bible teachers that those texts demanded a careful restudy. This study has resulted in again placing the Papacy rather than France as the power referred to in verses 36-39, by many of our Bible students. That this is the correct and historical denominational interpretation was the conviction of the committee, who were in complete agreement in this conclusion. The difference of opinion among Seventh-day Adventists begins with the 36th verse, with the introduction of "the king" who "shall do according to his will" and "shall exalt himself."
In deciding who this "king" represents, it is well to remember that in verses 33-35 there is a slight break in the sequence of thought, where the faithfulness of the honest of heart, and their sufferings, and the brief respite brought to them are described. That Papal Rome is included in the prophecy is made clear in verses 30-32, where its relationship to the "holy covenant," "the daily," and "the abomination that maketh desolate" is presented. Then in verses 33-35 the papal persecutions, together with the Reformation, are presented. "The people" that "instruct many" are "holden with a little help,'' "even to the time of the end." The power causing the people of God their trouble is not mentioned after the 32d verse, but is implicit in the troubled experience of the faithful. When is this persecuting power again referred to? It is "the king" of verse 36. It must be noted that the reading "the king" is found in the accepted Hebrew text, and translated thus in the King James Version and nearly all standard versions of the Scripture. Meter carefully weighing translations of the Hebrew of this question, we feel that the weight of evidence is on the side of the generally accepted rendering, "the king." It helps in the identification of this "king" to notice that the power introduced as Rome is usually spoken of as "he" or "him,'' but in verse 21 it is called a "kingdom," and in verse 27 the "he" and his opponent in the battle are spoken of as "both these kings." When, therefore, the prophet again refers to "the king" in verse 36, it is most reasonable to apply the text to the king already mentioned. In verse 36, without a break in the thought, and without even a new sentence in some translations, "the king" is again presented and his activities further explained. It would, therefore, seem to be but reasonable to conclude that the power here set forth is the same as in previous verses. 4. This is further emphasized by the fact that verses 36-39 so nearly parallel other texts that have always been applied to the Papacy by lost Protestant commentators.
The translation here seems to be obscure and in the King James Version there are three marginal readings indicating the lack of agreement on the part of the translators as to its correct rendering. The first marginal reading indicates that this power would, while seated in "his," or God's, seat, "honour the God of forces.'' The word "forces" is again obscure. One marginal reading gives "munitions," another "Gods protectors." Some translators do not translate the word but retain the original Mauzzim in the text. This word implies "protection," or a "protector," as used in Psalms 27:1; 28:8; and 31:3. Claiming therefore to be God, or at least from God's "seat," he points to a "god whom his fathers knew not" for protection and help. Surely the prayers directed to the saints of the church and to the virgin Mary would accurately fulfill this verse. Also the gifts of "gold, and silver, with precious stones, and pleasant things" point directly to the priceless gifts that the church has bestowed upon the images of the saints.
https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/1954/03/research
Here is from Amazing Facts..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMGTCPvR1pU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBPCnlBOw_o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggxbk38zpNg
Seems like a law banning religion is more likely than a "Sunday law."
Well, I'm all for playing it safe and taking both Saturday and Sunday off.
: Amo Mon Oct 28, 2024 - 07:50:40I've been leaning toward the ten final kings who give their power over to the beast, being ten international organizations that most of the world will eventually submit to.
This video is the best I have seen so far when it comes to the Ten Kings...
All of this nonsense about the UN, European Union, Papacy. bla bla is just worthless dogma.
SDA teachings are the worst. You will never understand Prophecy listening to false teachers like the OP.
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Sat Nov 02, 2024 - 22:10:18Seems like a law banning religion is more likely than a "Sunday law."
Who is going to ban religion? Secular humanism is a religion. Evolutionists are people of great faith, in the religion of their own making. Under papal guidance the religions of the world are coming together, not disappearing. No, religions will not end. They will compromise, come together with political intentions and outcomes as they already are, and create, establish, and enforce the mark of the beast. Until they do such, there is no mark of the beast.
: Mere Nick Sun Nov 03, 2024 - 00:02:27Well, I'm all for playing it safe and taking both Saturday and Sunday off.
I prefer Friday, Saturday, and Sunday off. Have worked 4 tens for many years. The seventh day is God's sabbath though. Just taking this or that day off, will not solve anything though. When the abominable mark of the beast is set up in place of God's holy sabbath commanding obedience to a man made tradition above and over a direct commandment of God, it will be a sin against God to submit to such blaspheme.
This will be allowed by God, that all may decide whom they will serve and worship in one final generation before our Lord returns. Therefore will it be necessary to make the decision as simple as possible. Choose between only one of two commands, each representing one's acceptance or rejection of the authorities claiming jurisdiction over our lives. The true God always leaving the decision up to the individual, the false God removing our God given power of choice.
So be it, as God's word has determined. Amen.
Mat 24:15
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20
But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27
For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
: Quantumbit Sun Nov 03, 2024 - 00:19:11This video is the best I have seen so far when it comes to the Ten Kings...
All of this nonsense about the UN, European Union, Papacy. bla bla is just worthless dogma.
SDA teachings are the worst. You will never understand Prophecy listening to false teachers like the OP.
A truly ignorant statement. Ignoring a long line of Christian historical interpretation of biblical prophecy. Based upon historical facts, and present realities which have been developing and continue to develop right before our very eyes.
: Hobie Sat Nov 02, 2024 - 17:22:04Take a look at this article from the Review and Herald, and note what it says at the 'a god whom are fathers knew not' near the end...
"l. The pioneers of this movement were for the first twenty-five or thirty years of our history unanimous in stating that papal Rome is the power referred to by the prophet Daniel in these verses. No other conclusion could be reached after a careful study of the literature of the church during this period. William Miller held this view as far back as 1842 (see Evidences From Scripture and Prophecy, by ]. V. Himes, pp. 97, 98). This was the interpretation presented by James White on many occasions, the first being in A Word to the "Little Flock," published in 1847, pages 8, 9. He says: "Michael is to stand up at the time that the last power in chap. 11, comes to his end, and none to help him. This power is the last that treads down the true church of God. . . . This last power that treads down the saints is brought to view in Rev. 13:11-18. His number is 666." Later, in the Review and Herald of November 29, 1877, James White defends this exposition of the text as follows: "Let us take a brief view of the line of prophecy four times spanned in the book of Daniel. It will be admitted that the same ground is passed over in chapters two, seven, eight, and eleven, with this exception that Babylon is left out of chapters eight and eleven. Th'e first pass down the great image of chapter two, "?here Babylon, Persia, Greece, and o r r. . brass, and the iron. All agree that these feet are not Turkish but Roman. And as we pass down, the lion, the bear, the leopard, and the beast with ten horns, representing the same as the great image, again all will agree that it is not Turkey that is cast into the burning flame, but the Roman beast. So of chapter eight, all agree that the little horn that stood up against the Prince of princes is not Turkey but Rome. In all these three lines thus far Rome is the last form of government mentioned. "J\'ow comes the point in the argument upon which very much depends. Does the eleventh chapter of the prophecy of Daniel cover the ground measured by chapters two_. seven, and eight? If so, then the last power mentioned in that chapter is Rome."
Elder White at the same time advised caution in giving a positive' interpretation of unfilled prophecy. He also warns against "removing the landmarks fully established in the advent movement." This article leaves no doubt that James 'ii\Thite considered in 1877 that the power referred to in Daniel ll :36-39 is papal Rome and that this was a landmark "fully established in the advent movement."
Even Uriah Smith, who later departed from this view, in an editorial in the Review and Herald, May 13, 1862, under the title "Will the Pope Remove the Papal Seat to Jerusalem?" refers to the Papacy as the power in Daniel 11:45. He quotes a statement from the Liverpool Mercury in which it is stated that a certain plan was under way which "points to the realizing of Pio Nono's favorite plan of removing the seat of the Papacy to Jerusalem." This is commented on by Uriah Smith as follows: "Is not the above item significant, taken in connection with Daniel XI, 45?" This statement confirms the fact that there was virtual unanimity among the leaders of the church with respect to our denominational teaching; namely, that Rome in its papal form is the power referred to in Daniel 11:36-39, and that papal Rome is also one of the powers referred to in the later verses of Daniel II. 2. Adventists take for granted today what James White emphasized in 1877 and 1878: that the prophecies of Daniel, chapters 2, 7, 8, and ll, show remarkable parallels in treating of Rome. The committee felt that the evidence that there is a parallelism between chapter 11 and the earlier chapters of Daniel has been established beyond a reasonable doubt. The eleventh chapter presents a literal exposition of the symbolic prophecies of Daniel 2, 7, and 8. It is generally agreed among Seventh-day Adventist Bible students that the "king" of Daniel MARCH, 1954 7:24, 25, and Daniel 8:23-25 refers to the Roman Catholic power, which accurately fulfills the propeucsym it was the conviction of the committee that where the "king" is again mentioned in Daniel 11:36 and described in almost identical language it could not represent a new power like France or Turkey not previously presented by Daniel in his prophetic outline, and that it would be most reasonable and in harmony with the prophetic outline of the rest of the chapter to conclude that the "king" in these and following verses also refers to papal Rome. The committee felt that a careful study of Daniel ll: 36-39 reveals outstanding characteristics of the Papacy and a remarkably clear picture of the cunning flattery and deceit of this power in its historical activities and its religious practices. These verses parallel not only the above-mentioned verses in Daniel 7 and 8 but also 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Revelation 13:5, 6. It was therefore the unanimous conclusion of the committee that, both historically and according to a sound exegesis of the text, Daniel 11:36-39 must refer to the papal power, and further, that these verses are parallel to Daniel 7:24, 25, a~d Daniel 8:23-25, which have always been cons1dered by the Seventh-day Adventist ministry as referring to the Papacy. 3. The committee also studied the possible causes that prompted Uriah Smith and others to depart from this historic denominational interpretation, substituting the history of France during the French Revolution for papal Rome as fulfilling Daniel 11:35, 36, and Turkey as the power in later verses, as well as the results of this shift of position in our denominational teaching. Some of the causes for the shift of position were found to be:
a. The complete loss of temporal power by the Papacy in 1870, resulting in Pius X proclaiming himself a "prisoner in the Vatican." For example, Uriah Smith states in the 1873 edition of Thoughts on Daniel in referring to the events of 1870, which he believed knocked "the last prop from under the papacy": "Victor Emmanuel, seizing his opportunity to carry out the long-cherished dream of a United Italy, seized Rome to make it the capital of his kingdom. To his troops, under General Cadorna, Rome surrendered, September 20, 1870. Then the last vestige of temporal power departed, nevermore, said Victor Emmanuel, to be restored; and the Pope has been virtually a prisoner in his own palace since that time. . . . The last vestige of temporal power was swept from his grasp."Pages 146, 147.
b. The conviction expressed in the secular and religious press that the Papacy had fallen to rise no more. This led Uriah Smith to state in the 1883 edition of Thoughts on Daniel: "The attempt which some make to bring in the Papacy here (that is, in Daniel ll:36-45) is so evidently wide of the mark that its consideration need not detain us."-Page 383.
c. The bringing of France, Turkey, and Egypt into the interpretation of these verses, and those following, seemed to bring a series of current events into the fulfillment of the prophecy, which to those who advocated it gave "great confirmation of faith in the soon loud cry and close of our message." (Comment by James White on the new theories, Review and Herald, November 29, 1877.)
d. Russian armies seemed about ready to close in on Constantinople, and the world press was full of declarations that the "sick man of the East" would soon be expelled from Europe. Uriah Smith, it seems, reflected the popular Protestant and secular viewpoint as he wrote under the title, "Turkish Empire's Downfall," and similar titles, during the last quarter of the nineteenth century.
e. Earlier Protestant commentators, such as Bishop Newton, Adam Clarke, and others, had generally held that the Ottoman Empire was one of the powers designated in Daniel 11:40-45, and events in the decade from 1870 to 1880 seemed undeniably to substantiate this line of reasoning, with current history pointing in the same direction.
f. Uriah Smith was evidently not in agreement with James White, who gave definite warnings that the positions being taken on the Eastern question were based on prophecies that had not yet met their fulfillment. White said, "But what will be the result of the positiveness in unfulfilled prophecies should things not come as very confidently expected, is an anxious question." (Emphasis his. James White in Review and Herald, Nov. 29, 1877.) He then proceeded to point out the parallel between Daniel II and the prophecies of Daniel in earlier chapters that were to him convincing proof "that the last power mentioned in that chapter is Rome!'
James White's position was clearly stated in 1878 as follows: "And there is a line of historic prophecy in chapter eleven, where the symbols are thrown off, beginning with the kings of Persia, and reaching down past Grecia and Rome, to the time when that power 'shall come to his end, and none shall help him.' If the feet and ten toes of the metallic image are Roman, if the beast with ten horns that was given to the burning flames of the great day be the Roman beast, if the little hom which stood up against the Prince of princes be Rome, and if the Page 24 same field and distance are covered by these four prophetic chains, then the last power of the eleventh chapter, which is to 'come to his end and none shall help him,' is Rome. But if this be Turkey, as some teach, then the toes of the image of the second chapter are Turkish, the beast with ten horns of the seventh chapter represents Turkey, and it was Turkey that stood up against the Prince of princes of the eighth chapter of Daniel. True, Turkey is bad enough off; but its waning power and its end is the subject of the prophecy of John and not of Daniel." -Review and Herald, Oct. 3, 1878, p. 116.
The committee therefore concluded that the change from the earlier views held by the denomination came about largely under the direction of Uriah Smith. In light of current political developments of the time, together with the apparent recession of the Papacy into a position of nonpotency in the political and religious world, he presented very ably and with deep conviction :what seemed to him the more reasonable interpretation of the text in question. This view, as taught by Uriah Smith, was published in our periodicals and more permanently in the book Thoughts on Daniel and the Revelation, written by Smith about this time. This book had a wide circulation and was a large factor in bringing possibly thousands into the truth. Its interpretation of the prophecies was very largely in harmony with former Seventh- day Adventist teachings. It became, therefore, to a large majority of our ministers and laymen the accepted interpretation of all the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation. During the years it came to be looked upon as our official denominational teaching. The fact that it differed in some respects from the position of the pioneers was almost lost from view. Not until the events so confidently predicted did not materialize, and the Papacy, instead of having "fallen to rise no more," again became a decisive influence in international affairs with a resumption of temporal power in 1929, did our Bible students undertake a re-examination of our denominational interpretation of these prophecies. Our earlier teaching was then rediscovered, together with the explicit warnings given by Elder White and others concerning the newer views advocated by Elder Smith. These findings, with the realization that current historical events had failed to develop along the lines expected, convinced many of our ministers and Bible teachers that those texts demanded a careful restudy. This study has resulted in again placing the Papacy rather than France as the power referred to in verses 36-39, by many of our Bible students. That this is the correct and historical denominational interpretation was the conviction of the committee, who were in complete agreement in this conclusion. The difference of opinion among Seventh-day Adventists begins with the 36th verse, with the introduction of "the king" who "shall do according to his will" and "shall exalt himself."
In deciding who this "king" represents, it is well to remember that in verses 33-35 there is a slight break in the sequence of thought, where the faithfulness of the honest of heart, and their sufferings, and the brief respite brought to them are described. That Papal Rome is included in the prophecy is made clear in verses 30-32, where its relationship to the "holy covenant," "the daily," and "the abomination that maketh desolate" is presented. Then in verses 33-35 the papal persecutions, together with the Reformation, are presented. "The people" that "instruct many" are "holden with a little help,'' "even to the time of the end." The power causing the people of God their trouble is not mentioned after the 32d verse, but is implicit in the troubled experience of the faithful. When is this persecuting power again referred to? It is "the king" of verse 36. It must be noted that the reading "the king" is found in the accepted Hebrew text, and translated thus in the King James Version and nearly all standard versions of the Scripture. Meter carefully weighing translations of the Hebrew of this question, we feel that the weight of evidence is on the side of the generally accepted rendering, "the king." It helps in the identification of this "king" to notice that the power introduced as Rome is usually spoken of as "he" or "him,'' but in verse 21 it is called a "kingdom," and in verse 27 the "he" and his opponent in the battle are spoken of as "both these kings." When, therefore, the prophet again refers to "the king" in verse 36, it is most reasonable to apply the text to the king already mentioned. In verse 36, without a break in the thought, and without even a new sentence in some translations, "the king" is again presented and his activities further explained. It would, therefore, seem to be but reasonable to conclude that the power here set forth is the same as in previous verses. 4. This is further emphasized by the fact that verses 36-39 so nearly parallel other texts that have always been applied to the Papacy by lost Protestant commentators.
The translation here seems to be obscure and in the King James Version there are three marginal readings indicating the lack of agreement on the part of the translators as to its correct rendering. The first marginal reading indicates that this power would, while seated in "his," or God's, seat, "honour the God of forces.'' The word "forces" is again obscure. One marginal reading gives "munitions," another "Gods protectors." Some translators do not translate the word but retain the original Mauzzim in the text. This word implies "protection," or a "protector," as used in Psalms 27:1; 28:8; and 31:3. Claiming therefore to be God, or at least from God's "seat," he points to a "god whom his fathers knew not" for protection and help. Surely the prayers directed to the saints of the church and to the virgin Mary would accurately fulfill this verse. Also the gifts of "gold, and silver, with precious stones, and pleasant things" point directly to the priceless gifts that the church has bestowed upon the images of the saints.
https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/1954/03/research
If you haven't read THE KING OF THE NORTH AT JERUSALEM, and The Kings that come from the Sunrising, by Louis F. Were, I highly recommend them concerning your above quotes.
http://pdf.amazingdiscoveries.org/KingOfTheNorth-Were.pdf
https://www.2520yearprophecy.com/PDF/Louis%20Were/KingsfromSunrising.pdf
: Amo Sun Nov 03, 2024 - 06:46:14A truly ignorant statement. Ignoring a long line of Christian historical interpretation of biblical prophecy. Based upon historical facts, and present realities which have been developing and continue to develop right before our very eyes.
Your comment proved nothing except how proud and arrogant you are. I doubt you are capable of ever extricating yourself from all that disinfo you swallowed.
The Mark of the Beast is Transhumanism. This is what Scripture teaches from Genesis to Revelation.
We have something called the 'internet' now. SDA garbage teachings have been debunked over and over. They should be considered spam at this point and treated accordingly.
To teach that the Mark of the Beast is when someone does not go to your church on a specific day is beyond retarded.
Seriously. How stupid can one be to believe such self-serving, egotistical, narcissistic, demonic Antichrist drivel. Disgusting.
: Hobie Fri Oct 04, 2024 - 19:34:52We know that the apostate church and the power of the state will unite in power to compel "all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond" , to receive "the mark of the beast," yet the people of God will not receive it.
'Apostate Church'. Give me a break.
Have you folks even tried to look in the mirror to see if you yourselves belong to the so-called Apostate Church? Obviously not. If you did you would leave in a nanosecond.
So childish.
"My Church is better than yours". Grow up already.
Did the Plandemic not teach you anything?
Where were you when the world needed you most? You played the COWARD is what you did. You were too afraid to tell the truth. You failed miserably.
Your time to prove yourself came and went and you thoroughly blew it.
Millions dead and injured because your false teachings prevented you from seeing what was happening right before your very eyes.
Pathetic!
Sounds like a lot of angry and delusional ranting. How do you know what anybody did during the plandemic. Just about everyone on these boards, from what I recall, properly identified the load of crap that it was. Regardless, you of course have the right to continue to Babyl-on.
I invite you to the SDA thread, to actually attempt to back up all the load of crap you just spewed out regarding our beliefs. If you care to do more than spew out angry accusations. Good day.
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Sat Nov 02, 2024 - 22:10:18Seems like a law banning religion is more likely than a "Sunday law."
Look thru this..
https://www.tomorrowsworld.org/news-and-prophecy/the-pope-environment-and-sunday-law
The mark of the beast is Saturday worship
: Hobie Fri Oct 04, 2024 - 19:34:52The Mark of the Beast will be implemented and the whole world will follow after the Beast in its work or setting its mark, in a world wide law. The Bible declares that before the coming of the Lord, Satan will work "with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness;" and they that "received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved," will be left to receive "strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."
2 Thessalonians 2:9-11
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan (https://christianpure.com/learn/satan-role-confusion-bible/) with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
In the issue of the Mark of the Beast (https://christianpure.com/learn/biblical-prophecy-what-does-the-mark-of-the-beast-mean-and-how-is-it-described/) the world will be divided into two great classes, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and those who worship the beast and his image and receive his mark. We know that the apostate church and the power of the state will unite in power to compel "all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond" , to receive "the mark of the beast," yet the people of God will not receive it.
Revelation 13:11-16
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
As the seal of God, the Sabbath has become the special point of controversy throughout Christendom, and religious and secular authorities have combined to enforce the observance of the Sunday, the Mark of the Beast (https://christianpure.com/learn/bible-mysteries-where-does-satan-live-where-is-satan-now/). But the refusal of a small minority, a remnant, to yield to the popular demand will come to a head. It will be urged that the few who stand in opposition to this day of the apostate church and a law of the state ought not to be tolerated; that it is better for them to be taken out than for all the nations to be thrown into confusion and their interpretation of the rule of law be ignored. The same argument was brought against Christ by the "rulers of the people." "It is expedient for us," said Caiaphas, "that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not."
John 11:49-50
49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
So how do church and state unite to bring this world wide law of Sunday keeping, well, its already in the works. The UN is pushing it as well as the apostate church and the "new" commandments could include a worldwide day of rest....as in, a Sabbath, yet it would be on another day.
The Pope is at the center of this idea and his Laudato Si Treaty is at the center of this movement, with the world governments being brought together in agreement. In October 2021, Pope Francis and other religious leaders made a joint appeal for leaders of COP 26 to take concrete steps to save the planet from a climate crisis. These steps support the Paris Agreements and Agenda 2030, whose goals are to reduce carbon emissions at any cost. They went forward with the advocation of the creation of a Green Sabbath, where each person is required to "give the environment a break one day a week", and Climate Sundays where they preach the religion of climate change.
Here is what they want to do..
"One day a week, minimize the need for more goods, minimize the use of natural resources, minimize the emission of carbon dioxide and other pollutants.
The Sabbath is said to be a foretaste of the world to come (Babylonian Talmud, Berakhot 57b). Literally. If you care about our future, about your well-being, observe a real sabbath day of rest. It helps cultivate community, self-discipline, inner calm and contentment. One powerful weapon in the fight against environmental deterioration and climate disaster may just be an age-old spiritual technology"
https://www.greensabbathproject.net/
And we see the power behind it..
"In January 2024, a Washington Post article in the climate section, titled "Why Reviving a 2,600-Year-Old Spiritual Practice Made My Life Better," pointed to Pope Francis' argument about "Sunday in his 2015 'Laudato Si,' an encyclical about caring for the natural world. Not resting is not just bad for the soul, he says, but it's also bad for the Earth. The constant drive to produce and consume more is squandering natural resources, and it prevents us from treating the living world, and one another, with dignity and respect. The Sabbath forces us to consider how we spend all our days.
"Sunday, like the Jewish Sabbath, is meant to be a day which heals our relationships with God, with ourselves, with others and with the world."
Pope Francis was expanding on the Catholic teaching that Sunday is sacred, trying to give it new meaning for a modern audience in a secular age."
https://lifehopeandtruth.com/prophecy/prophecy-in-the-news/a-green-sabbath-or-gods-sabbath/
I find this interpretation of Laudato Si and the "Mark of the Beast" narrative problematic on several levels. Let me offer a more nuanced perspective:
While Laudato Si does discuss Sunday rest, it's important to understand its historical context. The Catholic Church's emphasis on Sunday observance dates back to the earliest Christian communities and wasn't developed as an opposition to the Jewish Sabbath rather as a celebration of Christ's resurrection. The environmental aspects highlighted in Laudato Si are a modern application of ancient principles of stewardship, not a new doctrine.
Psychologically I'm concerned about the anxiety-inducing nature of interpreting modern environmental initiatives through an apocalyptic lens. The Green Sabbath Project, while perhaps well-intentioned, is being mischaracterized here as part of a sinister plot. In reality, it's merely one of many contemporary movements attempting to address environmental concerns through traditional spiritual practices.
The suggestion that the Catholic Church is attempting to enforce worldwide Sunday observance through climate policy is, frankly, a misreading of both Catholic doctrine and current ecclesiastical politics. The Church's influence on international policy, while notable, is far more limited than suggested here.
I should point out that the Catholic position on Sunday observance has always been pastoral rather than coercive. The linking of environmental stewardship with traditional day-of-rest concepts is more about encouraging voluntary spiritual practice than imposing religious law.
That said, I respect the sincere concerns about religious liberty that underlie these interpretations, even if I disagree with their conclusions.
: armchairscholar Thu Dec 19, 2024 - 05:34:47I find this interpretation of Laudato Si and the "Mark of the Beast" narrative problematic on several levels. Let me offer a more nuanced perspective:
While Laudato Si does discuss Sunday rest, it's important to understand its historical context. The Catholic Church's emphasis on Sunday observance dates back to the earliest Christian communities and wasn't developed as an opposition to the Jewish Sabbath rather as a celebration of Christ's resurrection. The environmental aspects highlighted in Laudato Si are a modern application of ancient principles of stewardship, not a new doctrine.
Psychologically I'm concerned about the anxiety-inducing nature of interpreting modern environmental initiatives through an apocalyptic lens. The Green Sabbath Project, while perhaps well-intentioned, is being mischaracterized here as part of a sinister plot. In reality, it's merely one of many contemporary movements attempting to address environmental concerns through traditional spiritual practices.
The suggestion that the Catholic Church is attempting to enforce worldwide Sunday observance through climate policy is, frankly, a misreading of both Catholic doctrine and current ecclesiastical politics. The Church's influence on international policy, while notable, is far more limited than suggested here.
I should point out that the Catholic position on Sunday observance has always been pastoral rather than coercive. The linking of environmental stewardship with traditional day-of-rest concepts is more about encouraging voluntary spiritual practice than imposing religious law.
That said, I respect the sincere concerns about religious liberty that underlie these interpretations, even if I disagree with their conclusions.
Sorry my friend, but to very many present facts, and facts of history, blatantly contradict your above statement. The Roman Catholic Church is a political machine. The leadership of which has been in bed and united with various governments of the world ever since the time of Constantine. Which governments very often have, and do continue to create and enforce Sunday laws, along with many other Vatican inspired laws and policies. Unto a great deal of persecution throughout history.
Papal Encyclicals are lengthy instructions concerning the political establishment of papal dogma and or social justice agendas. Per the doctrinal note concerning Catholics participation in politics, it is the duty of all good Roman Catholics to facilitate these instructions and social justice agendas by law whenever and wherever possible. Unto the establishment of the Vatican authorized "common good".
Apart from this, the Catechism itself instructs all good Catholics and all others who believe in a legislatively established "common good", to seek to establish Sunday sacredness as "legal" holidays wherever or from within any nation they happen to reside. The Roman Politics and Sabbath, Sunday, and Legalism threads in the SDA forum, are filled with historical and present accounts of papal political teaching and policy directing the continuous efforts of the Vatican to reestablish her political authority on a global scale.
You may of course believe and speak as you wish. Nevertheless, many will not deny what can easily be seen right before their very eyes.
Plus the fact that the early church never held Sunday as sacred, to say nothing of holy or made as the day of the Sabbath, only Rome brought in the corruption from its festival to the sun. Thus the old saying that came about, when in Rome, do as the Romans do..
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Sat Nov 02, 2024 - 22:10:18Seems like a law banning religion is more likely than a "Sunday law."
Well, looks like thats no longer the case... here from Pr Doug Batchelor..
PRESIDENT TRUMP SIGNS DECLARATION MAKING SUNDAY A 'NATIONAL DAY OF PRAYER'
Now I expect someone is going to misunderstand this post. I am in favor of national days of prayer. It's biblical. Several times in the Bible during times of a national crisis, Kings (and Queens in the case of Esther), called people to special times prayer.
2 Chronicles 20:3–4
In addition, I would guess most Christians have already been praying for those dear people in Houston and East Texas reeling from the recent floods. And of course this is not every Sunday but just September 3rd.
But still, for Sabbath keeping Christians, when you see the president in the Oval Office surrounded by government and religious leaders signing a declaration to especially recognize Sunday... well let's just say it conjures up sobering images of what's coming. Here's a quote from the declaration;
"I call on all Americans and houses of worship throughout the Nation to join in one voice of prayer, as we seek to uplift one another and assist those suffering from the consequences of this terrible storm," Trump says.
Meanwhile, the governor of Texas has also called on his fellow Texans and people around the country to pray for Texas on Sunday." You might want to share this with your friends?
http://www.wkbw.com/.../president-trump-signs-declaration
: Hobie Wed Dec 24, 2025 - 06:04:35Well, looks like thats no longer the case... here from Pr Doug Batchelor..
PRESIDENT TRUMP SIGNS DECLARATION MAKING SUNDAY A 'NATIONAL DAY OF PRAYER'
Now I expect someone is going to misunderstand this post. I am in favor of national days of prayer. It's biblical. Several times in the Bible during times of a national crisis, Kings (and Queens in the case of Esther), called people to special times prayer.
2 Chronicles 20:3–4
In addition, I would guess most Christians have already been praying for those dear people in Houston and East Texas reeling from the recent floods. And of course this is not every Sunday but just September 3rd.
But still, for Sabbath keeping Christians, when you see the president in the Oval Office surrounded by government and religious leaders signing a declaration to especially recognize Sunday... well let's just say it conjures up sobering images of what's coming. Here's a quote from the declaration;
"I call on all Americans and houses of worship throughout the Nation to join in one voice of prayer, as we seek to uplift one another and assist those suffering from the consequences of this terrible storm," Trump says.
Meanwhile, the governor of Texas has also called on his fellow Texans and people around the country to pray for Texas on Sunday." You might want to share this with your friends?
http://www.wkbw.com/.../president-trump-signs-declaration
I was going to post this on a forum you are not on but I hit the link and it cannot be found.
I now am coming to conclusions that unless it hits local and national news about Trump it will go in one ear and out the other.
In the first place, naming Sunday... any Sunday is not national law.
As I read the article it was just a spcific Sunday to pray for people who need it rather then just randomly saying please pray.
On the forum I was going to post someone recently made a comment that Trump says he will not be in heaven.
Of course... he is listening to the one he gave praises to Paula White and he also said... which I heard... he is now nondenominational... so
Satan is having a field day in the oval I am sure.
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Sat Nov 02, 2024 - 22:10:18Seems like a law banning religion is more likely than a "Sunday law."
But who would go in that direction, Satan wants worship for himself so uses what we can see is pagan worship, and true believers would not want to destroy it.