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What happens spiritually that makes us born again?

Usually you'll get an answer like "the wind blows where it wishes...etc." In other words, it's not for us to know. But I do believe the Bible gives us some insight into this.

I'll give my thoughts on this matter and we'll go from there. Just for the record, if I'm speaking of baptism, it's the spiritual baptism that I'm speaking of unless otherwise noted. I'll tell you if I mean water baptism.

When we are placed into/immersed/baptized into Christ, we receive everything at once, all the ingredients to be saved. Thus we are complete "in Him" and lacking nothing (Col. 2:10-14). Setting aside the legality of our salvation, that is, being saved/delivered from the penalty of sin, the focus in this thread will be our being saved/delivered from the power of sin. This is the practical side of being saved, and our being born again not only frees us from the power of sin, but also allows us to begin being conformed to Christ likeness.

Being born again is the result of being placed into Christ. Assumed into this discussion is that the receiving the Holy Spirit indwelling, known as the baptism with the Holy Spirit, by Jesus, with the Holy Spirit being the agent of that baptism/placing into/immersion, is how we are placed into Christ, the spiritual body, the true Church.

It is my belief that when the Bible speaks of our being raised up with Him, or raised up in Christ, it's speaking of our being born again. When it speaks of being crucified with Christ, dying with Him, that is the necessary death that must precede being raised up with Him. When we are placed into/immersed/baptized into Christ, we're also placed into/immersed/baptized into His death, and raised up with Him, thus we are born again.

These are verses that I believe are speaking of being born again, though they do not use the typical language.

Romans 6:3-11 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Col. 2:10-14 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Gal. 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

Gal. 3:2-3 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit (baptism with the Holy Spirit) by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? ---- *(added by me)*

26-27 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized (with the Holy Spirit) into Christ have put on Christ. ---- *(added by me)*

Ephesians 2:5-6 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Being born again is simultaneous to being placed into Christ, also being placed into Jesus' death and raised up with Him.

The Bible tells us that we are saved/delivered through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. I believe this is Saved/delivered both judicially and being born again. But when the Bible speaks of being 'raised up with Him', like Ephesians 2:5-6, I believe that it's specifically speaking of our being born again.

Do you recognize this Scripture of speaking of being born again? Is this a metaphor, or does this really happen spiritually when we receive the Holy Spirit.

We can get into more verses that speak about being born again, but I wanted to lay out my thoughts first.

It's a simple concept. We believe, and Jesus places the Holy Spirit, called the Spirit of Christ in us (NT-Romans 8:9-11, OT promise-John 14:16-18). This is called the baptism with the Holy Spirit. It's what places us into Christ. In other words, the placing into, or the immersion, is not the holy spirit being placed into us, but is speaking of our being placed into Christ as a result of that indwelling (NT-1 Cor. 12:13).

Thoughts?

Both these first two OT passages are speaking of being born again, but still a future event to be realized. Later in John it's called the Promise of the Father. The Holy Spirit.

OT-EZ 36:26-37 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

OT-John 7:38-39 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. (born again)" But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

OT-John 16:12-15 I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you. (John 3:3 points to the same fulfilment, notice, they still cannot see).

OT-John 3:13-14 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, (Jesus must first be glorified)

OT-John 15:26, 14:25-26

OT-14:14-20 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever-- the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.

Do you see it? Born again, A future promise. Aligned with the indwelling, that's the baptism with the Holy Spirit. The baptism that saves.

Jesus the prophesied baptizer by John the Baptist himself. Fulfilled at Pentecost.

Water baptism is the occasion of Holy Spirit baptism. That is the message of Acts 2:38.  There can be no question that water baptism is the moment in time in the life of the repentant believer when not only are his sins forgiven but he is given the gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit.  The moment of the giving of the indwelling Holy Spirit is the baptism in the Holy Spirit.  That happens when the repentant believer is water baptized.

: 4WD  Wed Nov 05, 2025 - 04:06:17Water baptism is the occasion of Holy Spirit baptism. That is the message of Acts 2:38.  There can be no question that water baptism is the moment in time in the life of the repentant believer when not only are his sins forgiven but he is given the gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit.  The moment of the giving of the indwelling Holy Spirit is the baptism in the Holy Spirit.  That happens when the repentant believer is water baptized.

Water baptism a ceremonial law as a shadow pointing the unseen glory of our invisible Holy eternal Father .Not a outward sign the seeking of ones own glory

The doctrine of water (H20 baptism is found when Aarons two sons (the witness of two---law ) The two added to prophecy with there own oral tradition of dying mankind (15 seconds of false fame) they were complete consumed by the fiery judgment not a hint of smoke on the ceremonial attire.

The cause of the fall adding 4 words "neither shall you touch"--- fell for it hook, sinker and line '

   

: 4WD  Wed Nov 05, 2025 - 04:06:17Water baptism is the occasion of Holy Spirit baptism. That is the message of Acts 2:38.  There can be no question that water baptism is the moment in time in the life of the repentant believer when not only are his sins forgiven but he is given the gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit.  The moment of the giving of the indwelling Holy Spirit is the baptism in the Holy Spirit.  That happens when the repentant believer is water baptized.

4wd, What you're doing is applying the power to the types, and not the spiritual truths that they point to. Please reconsider. Water baptism never saved anyone.

1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Compare to Romans 6:3-11, Col. 2:10-14, and Gal. 3:27 as they all define each other.

: Dave...  Thu Nov 06, 2025 - 12:37:524wd, What you're doing is applying the power to the types, and not the spiritual truths that they point to. Please reconsider. Water baptism never saved anyone.

1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Compare to Romans 6:3-11, Col. 2:10-14, and Gal. 3:27 as they all define each other.

Yes, that is true.  Watter baptism never saved anyone.  But God does indeed save the penitent believer when he repents and submits to being water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

As to types, in 1 Peter 3:21 the water of Noah's flood is the type; baptism is the antitype. The reference to a type or analogy indicates that there is a figurative connection here somewhere. The King James Version says, "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us." Through careless reading some have interpreted this to mean that baptism itself is the figure or symbol that stands for some other reality. Following the prevalent theology of the day, they conclude that baptism thus symbolizes the moment of salvation that has already occurred. But this is just the opposite of what Peter says. The two things being compared are the Noahic flood and baptism, and the relation between them is that of type and antitype. As such the flood is the preceding type or figure, and baptism is the reality to which it points. Thus baptism is not the symbol but the reality itself, namely water baptism.

And so far as Romans 6:3-11, Colossians. 2:10-14, and Galatians 3:27 are concerned, they are all speaking of water baptism.  It is in water baptism that the baptism with the Holy Spirit is accomplished.  That is the indwelling Holy Spirit not the Holy Spirit empowering to do signs, wonders and miracles such as speaking in tongue and prophesying.

I would offer.

Christian, the new testament priesthood--- no longer after Jews from the tribe of Levi now after Jesus from the tribe of Judah. Judah used to represent all the tribes or nations of the world a kingdom of priest   .

Passed down from Aaron in a ceremonial law a shadow pointing toward the unseen eternal things of Christ.

On the first day anointing his two sons using H20 in that parable H20 to represent the unseen eternal things of Christ .

The witness of two they added to prophecy violating the warning not to add to prophecy . The fire consumed them .Not a hint of smoke on the cerinimoinal attire.

A sign to the unbelieving world not to the themselves---a abomination of desolation in the end making his Holy Spirit that dwells in the believer to no efect by adding to it. .

Baptism continues as as sign to the unbelieving word .

Believers have prophecy and aware of lying signs of the father of lies  that cause wondering, wondering, wondering just as if God was still adding to his perfect sealed with 7 seals till the end of time.

God promises he will send them a strong delusion so they can beleive the wondering, wondering, marveling lie. the father of lies  saying  "Its more than a ceremony" Its the very substance not a shadow . The shadow is used to draw the unbeliever to sola scriptura the hidden mysteries of our Faithful Holy Father .   

: 4WD  Fri Nov 07, 2025 - 05:41:58Yes, that is true.  Watter baptism never saved anyone.  But God does indeed save the penitent believer when he repents and submits to being water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

As to types, in 1 Peter 3:21 the water of Noah's flood is the type; baptism is the antitype. The reference to a type or analogy indicates that there is a figurative connection here somewhere. The King James Version says, "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us." Through careless reading some have interpreted this to mean that baptism itself is the figure or symbol that stands for some other reality. Following the prevalent theology of the day, they conclude that baptism thus symbolizes the moment of salvation that has already occurred. But this is just the opposite of what Peter says. The two things being compared are the Noahic flood and baptism, and the relation between them is that of type and antitype. As such the flood is the preceding type or figure, and baptism is the reality to which it points. Thus baptism is not the symbol but the reality itself, namely water baptism.

And so far as Romans 6:3-11, Colossians. 2:10-14, and Galatians 3:27 are concerned, they are all speaking of water baptism.  It is in water baptism that the baptism with the Holy Spirit is accomplished.  That is the indwelling Holy Spirit not the Holy Spirit empowering to do signs, wonders and miracles such as speaking in tongue and prophesying.

Hey 4wd

The picture being painted in 1 Peter 3:21 is very clear. Jesus is the Arc. The water is God's judgment. In the Arc we are protected from God's Judgment. It's a perfect picture of what being placed into Christ means. Being "placed into" (spirit baptism)--In Christ (the Arc)--We are delivered from God's wrath (water). The water in that picture represents God's judgment, not salvation.

This is the baptism that places us into Christ...

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

This is always a baptism by faith. Believe and be saved.  To rewrite the entire Bible for one misinterpreted verse is a mistake.

https://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-Acts-2-38.html

The word "baptize" is just an action. The agent of that baptism, and the baptizer are not part of the definition of that word. We rely mostly on the context for that. To assume water every time the word baptism is used is a huge mistake.

In Matthew 3:11, Baptism *with* the Holy Spirit by Jesus. He tells you the Agent of that baptism. It's the Holy Spirit, not water. By Jesus. That's exactly what Peter said in 1 Peter 3:21.

You're answer is right here...

1 Cor. 1:17-17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect. For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent." Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

There's many more just like that.

: Dave...  Fri Nov 07, 2025 - 12:34:06Hey 4wd

The picture being painted in 1 Peter 3:21 is very clear. Jesus is the Arc. The water is God's judgment. In the Arc we are protected from God's Judgment. It's a perfect picture of what being placed into Christ means. Being "placed into" (spirit baptism)--In Christ (the Arc)--We are delivered from God's wrath (water). The water in that picture represents God's judgment, not salvation.

That is one of the worst rewrites of a passage of scripture that I have come across. Go back to verse 20.  It says that "eight souls were saved by water". The Greek used there is δι᾿ ὕδατος  [by, through the agency of water]  The Water there is not God's judgment; rather, the water there is the saving agent of those eight souls.  Then Paul carries that thought on to the issue of the water of baptism which he says in verse 21,

(NASB} "Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you"

(ESV) "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you"

(KJV) "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us"

(NIV) "and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also"

(NKJV) "There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism"

Without doubt, it is in water baptism that God saves us.

: Dave... link=msg=1055222150 date=1762540446
1 Cor. 1:17-17b]For Christ did not send me to baptize[/b], but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect. For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent." Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

I think you have misunderstood that one also.  First, Paul is talking about water baptism there.  He is not speaking against water baptism.  He in fact says that he did baptize some. Second, the problem he is contending with is the problem of some people who seem to claim superiority through who baptized them.  Paul is condemning that claim. He says in verses 14 and 15, "I thank God that I baptized none of you, save Crispus and Gaius; lest any man should say that ye were baptized into my name".

: 4WD  Sat Nov 08, 2025 - 05:40:03I think you have misunderstood that one also.  First, Paul is talking about water baptism there.  He is not speaking against water baptism.  He in fact says that he did baptize some. Second, the problem he is contending with is the problem of some people who seem to claim superiority through who baptized them.  Paul is condemning that claim. He says in verses 14 and 15, "I thank God that I baptized none of you, save Crispus and Gaius; lest any man should say that ye were baptized into my name".

Baptized into a name or power.  not into H20  but washed (baptized) into the water of the word the washing an renewing of the gospel .

H20 coming down not inspired from earth as before the flood and sons of God destroyed that witness. Daughters of men (unredeemed mankind) were unevenly yoked cohabitating with Christ sons of God .Installed a rainbow reminder

Many liquids are used as metaphors in parables to represent the unseen work of the Holy Spirit. He pours out his Spirit life on dying flesh in jeapordy of his own Holy Spirit life---- as if it was spit, water , fresh and salt, rain coming down , dew, small rain shower upon grass falling on the green living things, blood, sweat. living water


Deuteronomy 32 King James Version32 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth. My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

Baptism is a sign to the unbelieving word .Believer have prophecy till the end of time .

Beware of lying signs that cause mankind to wonder, wonder, wonder, marvel  after just as if God was still bringing new prophecy .

Christians know the results of Aarons two sons when they tried to personalize the sign designed for the unredeemed in order to draw the un-redeemed by the living word. Consumed them both not a hint of smoke on the cerinimoinal attire .

Sign are not for those who are freely given the faith or understanding of Christ that comes from hearing God as it is written .Prohecy for those who do believe. Signs those who believe not prophecy.

One example the Hebrew in bondage that were trusting prophecy knew the time period (400 years in Egypt) Those who apposed the gospel offered a lying sign to wonder after 

Exodus 4:8-9 And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe thee, neither hearken to the voice of the first sign, that they will believe the voice of the latter sign. And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe also these two signs, neither hearken unto thy voice, that thou shalt take of the water of the river, and pour it upon the dry land: and the water which thou takest out of the river shall become blood upon the dry land.
 
In the parable above using the witness of two  .The beginning and end-- or alfa Omega or The "Let there be" and it was Good.(law of faith) 


The first sign death  The power of death and life the second they that sought after lying sign to wonder after---they chose death.

God literally removed the form of government killings the first born of any living thing.

Signs for the unredeemed-- Prohecy (sola scriptura) the living word for sons of God. Christians.
 

: 4WD  Sat Nov 08, 2025 - 05:28:18That is one of the worst rewrites of a passage of scripture that I have come across. Go back to verse 20.  It says that "eight souls were saved by water". The Greek used there is δι᾿ ὕδατος  [by, through the agency of water]  The Water there is not God's judgment; rather, the water there is the saving agent of those eight souls.  Then Paul carries that thought on to the issue of the water of baptism which he says in verse 21,

(NASB} "Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you"

(ESV) "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you"

(KJV) "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us"

(NIV) "and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also"

(NKJV) "There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism"

Without doubt, it is in water baptism that God saves us.

You're missing the point, 4. There's a picture being painted. And the word baptism doesn't carry with it the idea of water. It simply means to place into, to immerse. The water in that picture is God's judgment. Your interpretation is eisegesis. People do not need to be dunked into God's judgment to be saved.  That's the picture that you're painting. However, Peter is painting a different picture from yours. 

It's a "placing into" that saves. That "placing into" is in reference to Christ. We are "placed into" Christ when we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. We receive the Holy Spirit indwelling as a result of faith, always. Believe and be saved. That's the Gospel.

Peters type is a picture of the anti type, that is believers being "placed into" Christ, who are then save from God's judgment.
 
1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized (placed into) into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:22, 26-27 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe....For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized (placed into) into Christ have put on Christ.

Dave wouldn't there have been a better word to use as "placed" than baptized in that verse which has connoted water immersion forever? Would that have been the ideal phrasing to have used by the Holy Spirit for such an auspicious and paradigm changing object lesson? I agree with 4WD on this one. Using the term baptism there to articulate the idea of simply placed seems awfully contrived AND there HAS to be better words in Greek  available to communicate that message better OR confusion was actually the intent, and I strongly doubt that.

The mechanics is grace by faith.  Baptism is at Faith. 

Continual overemphasis of baptism due to the under emphasis of baptism

: Dave...  Sun Nov 09, 2025 - 12:49:56You're missing the point, 4. There's a picture being painted. And the word baptism doesn't carry with it the idea of water.

Yeah, it does.  John baptized in water.  Jesus, i.e., his disciples, baptized in water. When Jesus spoke in Mark 16:16 and Matthew 28:19-20 the only baptism that makes any sense is water baptism.  That is especially the case in Matthew 28 since it is the means dictated by Jesus for making disciples and is something that is to be administered by the one commanded to make disciples. Baptizing and teaching are the means by which the peoples from all the nations are made into disciples. Baptizing and teaching are what someone, a person, is to do. A person can only perform water baptism.

Moreover, the baptism commanded by Peter in Acts 2:38 can only be water baptism, since it is in water baptism performed by someone on the repentant believer that results in the forgiving of sins and the baptizing with the Holy Spirit.

: 4WD  Mon Nov 10, 2025 - 06:05:43Yeah, it does.  John baptized in water.  Jesus, i.e., his disciples, baptized in water. When Jesus spoke in Mark 16:16 and Matthew 28:19-20 the only baptism that makes any sense is water baptism.  That is especially the case in Matthew 28 since it is the means dictated by Jesus for making disciples and is something that is to be administered by the one commanded to make disciples. Baptizing and teaching are the means by which the peoples from all the nations are made into disciples. Baptizing and teaching are what someone, a person, is to do. A person can only perform water baptism.

Moreover, the baptism commanded by Peter in Acts 2:38 can only be water baptism, since it is in water baptism performed by someone on the repentant believer that results in the forgiving of sins and the baptizing with the Holy Spirit.

I would offer . .With the ceremonial washing of the Water of the Word a shadow of the unseen Holy Spirit. It is used in a ceremonial law as sign (shadow) to the world not a sign to the priesthood of believers .Like Aarons two sons who offered " Look I did it it proves it, they were consumed by the fiery judgment of our Holy Father Christ .

Believers  have prophecy.no need to seek after signs to wonder, wonder, wonder after just as if true prophecy.

We seek after our new born again hearts desires. . the washing of the word just as he washes us. Husbands wash there own wives  with the loving doctrines of Christ .they fall like rain they distill a dew.

God bringing His pure honey sweet word as Manna (what is it?) placing it on the dew to signify the separation from the cursed earthly inspired---- separated from our Holy Father

Deuteronomy 32:1-2 King James Version Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth. My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

Exodus 16:13 And it came to pass, that at even the quails came up, and covered the camp: and in the morning the dew lay round about the host. And when the dew that lay was gone up, behold, upon the face of the wilderness there lay a small round thing, as small as the hoar frost on the ground.

: garee  Mon Nov 10, 2025 - 08:20:47I would offer . .With the ceremonial washing of the Water of the Word a shadow of the unseen Holy Spirit. It is used in a ceremonial law as sign (shadow) to the world not a sign to the priesthood of believers .Like Aarons two sons who offered " Look I did it it proves it, they were consumed by the fiery judgment of our Holy Father Christ .

Believers  have prophecy.no need to seek after signs to wonder, wonder, wonder after just as if true prophecy.

We seek after our new born again hearts desires. . the washing of the word just as he washes us. Husbands wash there own wives  with the loving doctrines of Christ .they fall like rain they distill a dew.

God bringing His pure honey sweet word as Manna (what is it?) placing it on the dew to signify the separation from the cursed earthly inspired---- separated from our Holy Father

Deuteronomy 32:1-2 King James Version Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth. My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

Exodus 16:13 And it came to pass, that at even the quails came up, and covered the camp: and in the morning the dew lay round about the host. And when the dew that lay was gone up, behold, upon the face of the wilderness there lay a small round thing, as small as the hoar frost on the ground.

You didn't read a thing that I posted.  Or at the least, nothing you posted had anything to do with what I said.  I am not sure why you bothered to use the quote.

: Jaime  Sun Nov 09, 2025 - 14:15:25Dave wouldn't there have been a better word to use as "placed" than baptized in that verse which has connoted water immersion forever? Would that have been the ideal phrasing to have used by the Holy Spirit for such an auspicious and paradigm changing object lesson? I agree with 4WD on this one. Using the term baptism there to articulate the idea of simply placed seems awfully contrived AND there HAS to be better words in Greek  available to communicate that message better OR confusion was actually the intent, and I strongly doubt that.

That passage in 1 Corinthians 1:17-21, that was the point, he was speaking of water baptism. 4wd is not arguing against the point that I made, but rather, a ghost. The whole point is that if water baptism saved, Paul would never, ever say that. He would never say I did not come here to save anyone, but to teach. That is, in effect what 4wd would be claiming that Paul said.

And, that's what baptism means, placed into, immersed, into or third dipped into. Water is not part of the definition. To assume water as part of the definition of the the word baptize is going beyond the text.

An Example that you're not attached to...Can you tell me why we still use the translation tongues for the word languages when all the modern English translations have gotten rid of all that old English? The term tongues has baggage assumed into it it. Same with baptize.

There are two different baptisms (at least), so we cannot assume one into every time the word baptize is used. See Matt. 3:11).

: Dave...  Mon Nov 10, 2025 - 13:49:39There are two different baptisms (at least), so we cannot assume one into every time the word baptize is used. See Matt. 3:11).

Eph 4:4  There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5  one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

So there really are not two different baptisms.  There is one baptism giving rise to two different actions by God.  The one baptism is in water.

: 4WD  Mon Nov 10, 2025 - 15:15:13Eph 4:4  There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5  one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

So there really are not two different baptisms.  There is one baptism giving rise to two different actions by God.  The one baptism is in water.

Hey 4wd

One baptism is a type, and cannot save. And one baptism is spiritual, and can save. Thus one [true] baptism of Ephesians 4:4. 

OT-Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance (<---that's one, it's a type and doesn't save), but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. (Here's the second, the one true baptism, Eph. 4:4, that does save--->) He [Jesus] will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Two baptisms, the one that saves, and the other is a type, that points. Which one is the type, and which one is the antitype, the one that saves?

NT-1 Peter 3:21  There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

: Dave...  Mon Nov 10, 2025 - 19:22:53Hey 4wd

One baptism is a type, and cannot save. And one baptism is spiritual, and can save. Thus one [true] baptism of Ephesians 4:4. 

OT-Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance (<---that's one, it's a type and doesn't save), but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. (Here's the second, the one true baptism, Eph. 4:4, that does save--->) He [Jesus] will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Two baptisms, the one that saves, and the other is a type, that points. Which one is the type, and which one is the antitype, the one that saves?

NT-1 Peter 3:21  There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

where do you read that water baptism is a type? You don't. And you are seriously confused. The type in 1 Peter 3:21 is the water of Noah's flood, the antitype is the water of baptism. That is what it says.\

Here is one theologian's commentary on that verse.  Read and learn.

From Albert Barnes

  The like figure whereunto, even baptism, doth also now save us - There are some various readings here in the Greek text, but the sense is not essentially varied. Some have proposed to read (ῷ  hō) to which instead of (ὅ  ho) which, so as to make the sense "the antitype to which baptism now also saves us." The antecedent to the relative, whichever word is used, is clearly not the ark, but water; and the idea is, that as Noah was saved by water, so there is a sense in which water is made instrumental in our salvation. The mention of water in the case of Noah, in connection with his being saved, by an obvious association suggested to the mind of the apostle the use of water in our salvation, and hence led him to make the remark about the connection of baptism with our salvation. The Greek word here rendered "figure" - ἀντίτυπον  antitupon - "antitype" means properly, "resisting a blow or impression," (from ἀντί  anti and τύπος  tupos;) that is, hard, solid. In the New Testament, however, it is used in a different sense; and (ἀντί  anti) in composition, implies resemblance, correspondence and hence, the word means, "formed after a type or model; like; corresponding; that which corresponds to a type" - Robinson, Lexicon. The word occurs only in this place and Heb_9:24, rendered "figures." The meaning here is, that baptism corresponded to, or had a resemblance to, the water by which Noah was saved; or that there was a use of water in the one case which corresponded in some respects to the water that was used in the other; to wit, in effecting salvation. The apostle does not say that it corresponded in all respects; in respect, e. g., to quantity, or to the manner of the application, or to the efficacy; but there is a sense in which water performs an important part in our salvation, as it did in his.
  Baptism - Not the mere application of water, for that idea the apostle expressly disclaims, when he says that it involves not "putting away the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God." The sense is, that baptism, including all that is properly meant by baptism as a religious rite - that is, baptism administered in connection with true repentance, and true faith in the Lord Jesus, and when it is properly a symbol of the putting away of sin, and of the renewing influences of the Holy Spirit, and an act of unreserved dedication to God - now saves us. On the meaning of the word "baptism," see the notes at Mat_3:6, Mat_3:16.
  Doth also now save us - The water saved Noah and his family from perishing in the flood; to wit, by bearing up the ark. Baptism, in the proper sense of the term, as above explained, where the water used is a symbol, in like manner now saves us; that is, the water is an emblem of that purifying by which we are saved. It may be said to save us, not as the meritorious cause, but as the indispensable condition of salvation. No man can be saved without that regenerated and purified heart of which baptism is the appropriate symbol, and when it would be proper to administer that ordinance. The apostle cannot have meant that water saves us in the same way in which it saved Noah, because that cannot be true. It is neither the same in quantity, nor is it applied in the same way, nor is it efficacious in the same manner. It is indeed connected with our salvation in its own proper way, as an emblem of that purifying of the heart by which we are saved. Thus, it corresponds with the salvation of Noah by water, and is the (ἀντίτυπον  antitupon) "antitype" of that. Nor does it mean that the salvation of Noah by water was designed to be a type of Christian baptism. There is not the least evidence of that; and it should not be affirmed without proof. The apostle saw a resemblance in some respects between the one and the other; such a resemblance that the one naturally suggested the other to his mind, and the resemblance was so important as to make it the proper ground of remark.
  (But if Noah's preservation in the ark, be the type of that salvation of which baptism is the emblem, who shall say it was not so designed of God? Must we indeed regard the resemblance between Noah's deliverance and ours, as a happy coincidence merely? But the author is accustomed to deny typical design in very clear cases; and in avoiding one extreme seems to have gone into another. Some will have types everywhere; and, therefore, others will allow them nowhere. See the supplementary note at Heb_7:1; M. Knight's Essay, viii. Sect. v., on the laws of typical interpretation, with his commentary in loco)
The points of resemblance in the two cases seem to have been these:
  (1)    There was salvation in both; Noah was saved from death, and we are saved from hell.
  (2)    Water is employed in both cases - in the case of Noah to uphold the ark; in ours to be a symbol of our purification.
  (3)    The water in both cases is connected with salvation: in the case of Noah by sustaining the ark; in ours by being a symbol of salvation, of purity, of cleansing, of that by which we may be brought to God.
  The meaning of this part of the verse, therefore, may be thus expressed: "Noah and his family were saved by water, the antitype to which (to wit, that which in important respects corresponds to that) baptism (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, or the mere application of material water, but that purifying of the heart of which it is the appropriate emblem) now saves us."
  Not the putting away of the filth of the flesh - Not a mere external washing, however solemnly done. No outward ablution or purifying saves us, but that which pertains to the conscience. This important clause is thrown in to guard the statement from the abuse to which it would otherwise be liable, the supposition that baptism has of itself a purifying and saving power. To guard against this, the apostle expressly declares that he means much more than a mere outward application of water.
  But the answer of a good conscience toward God - The word here rendered "answer" (ἐπερώτημα  eperōtēma) means properly a question, an inquiry. It is "spoken of a question put to a convert at baptism, or rather of the whole process of question and answer; that is, by implication, examination, profession" - Robinson, Lexicon. It is designed to mark the spiritual character of the baptismal rite in contrast with a mere external purification, and evidently refers to something that occurred at baptism; some question, inquiry, or examination, that took place then; and it would seem to imply:
  (1)    That when baptism was performed, there was some question or inquiry in regard to the belief of the candidate;
  (2)    That an answer was expected, implying that there was a good conscience; that is, that the candidate had an enlightened conscience, and was sincere in his profession; and,
  (3)    That the real efficacy of baptism, or its power in saving, was not in the mere external rite, but in the state of the heart, indicated by the question and answer, of which that was the emblem.
On the meaning of the phrase "a good conscience," see the notes at 1Pe_3:16 of this chapter. Compare on this verse Neander, Geschich der Pfianz. u. Leit. der chr, Kirche, i. p. 203ff, in Bibl. Reposi. iv. 272ff. It is in the highest degree probable that questions would be proposed to candidates for baptism respecting their belief, an we have an instance of this fact undoubtedly in the case before us. How extensive such examinations would be, what points would be embraced, how much reference there was to personal experience, we have, of course, no certain means of ascertaining. We may suppose, however, that the examination pertained to what constituted the essential features of the Christian religion, as distinguished from other systems, and to the cordial belief of that system by the candidate.
  By the resurrection of Jesus Christ - That is, we are saved in this manner through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The whole efficiency in the case is derived from that. If he had not been raised from the dead, baptism would have been vain, and there would have been no power to save us. See this illustrated at length in the notes at Rom_6:4-5. The points, therefore, which are established in regard to baptism by this important passage are these:
  (1) That Christian baptism is not a mere external rite; a mere outward ablution; a mere application of water to the body. It is not contemplated that it shall be an empty form, and its essence does not consist in a mere "putting away of the filth of the flesh." There is a work to be done in respect to the conscience which cannot be reached by the application of water.
  (2) That there was an examination among the early Christians when a candidate was about to be baptized, and of course such an examination is proper now. Whatever was the ground of the examination, it related to that which existed before the baptism was administered. It was not expected that it should be accomplished by the baptism. There is, therefore, implied evidence here that there was no reliance placed on that ordinance to produce that which constituted the "answer of a good conscience;" in other words, that it was not supposed to have an efficacy to produce that of itself, and was not a converting or regenerating ordinance.
  (3) The "answer" which was returned in the inquiry, was to be such as indicated a good conscience; that is, as Bloomfield expresses it, (New Testament in loc.,) "that which enables us to return such an answer as springs from a good conscience toward God, which can be no other than the inward change and renovation wrought by the Spirit." It was supposed, therefore, that there would be an internal work of grace; that there would be much more than an outward rite in the whole transaction. The application of water is, in fact, but an emblem or symbol of that grace in the heart, and is to be administered as denoting that. It does not convey grace to the soul by any physical efficacy of the water. It is a symbol of the purifying influences of religion, and is made a means of grace in the same way as obedience to any other of the commands of God.
  (4) There is no efficacy in the mere application of water in any form, or with any ceremonies of religion, to put away sin. It is the "good conscience," the renovated heart, the purified soul, of which baptism is the emblem, that furnishes evidence of the divine acceptance and favor. Compare Heb_9:9-10. There must be a deep internal work on the soul of man, in order that he may be acceptable to God; and when that is missing, no external rite is of any avail.
  (5) Yet, it does not follow from this that baptism is of no importance. The argument of the apostle here is, that it is of great importance. Noah was saved by water; and so baptism has an important connection with our salvation. As water bore up the ark, and was the means of saving Noah, so baptism by water is the emblem of our salvation; and when administered in connection with a "good conscience," that is, with a renovated heart, it is as certainly connected with our salvation as the sustaining waters of the flood were with the salvation of Noah. No man can prove from the Bible that baptism has no important connection with salvation; and no man can prove that by neglecting it he will be as likely to obtain the divine favor as he would by observing it. It is a means of exhibiting great and important truths in an impressive manner to the soul; it is a means of leading the soul to an entire dedication to a God of purity; it is a means through which God manifests himself to the soul, and through which he imparts grace, as he does in all other acts of obedience to his commandments.

: Dave...  Mon Nov 10, 2025 - 19:22:53Hey 4wd

One baptism is a type, and cannot save. And one baptism is spiritual, and can save. Thus one [true] baptism of Ephesians 4:4. 

OT-Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance (<---that's one, it's a type and doesn't save), but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. (Here's the second, the one true baptism, Eph. 4:4, that does save--->) He [Jesus] will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Two baptisms, the one that saves, and the other is a type, that points. Which one is the type, and which one is the antitype, the one that saves?

NT-1 Peter 3:21  There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Amen. .

Without parables that use water as a metaphor to give us the unseen understanding of Christ working in us.( temporal dying mankind )  .Without He spoke not .

The key is "without" one parable--- he spoke not. Hiding the unseen spiritual understanding from the god of this world---- not subject to the gospel understanding .

The guessing god. The iffy you are the Son of God . The non iffy as it is written (sola scriptura) Three times the Holy Father gave words to his apostle Jesus the Son of man as it is written


The same god as king of lying signs to wonder, wonder, wonder after as if true prophecy (sola scriptura) which is sealed with seven seals till the end of time.

It would seem many today are trusting the lying signs as a wondering, wondering  tool today--- again just as if prophecy. The danger of seeking signs rather than prophecy

It would seem they shy away from parables that were designed to comfort and give rest when searching for hidden understanding . but rather they remain a mystery of faith (unseen things of Christ )

Believers have prophecy no need to wonder, wonder, wonder----marvel, marvel, Purgatory, Limbo   .
 

Lucifer would literalize the whole historical. Blind to the gospel. . .faithless.. clueless   

: 4WD  Tue Nov 11, 2025 - 01:38:33Doth also now save us - The water saved Noah and his family from perishing in the flood; to wit, by bearing up the ark.

This pretty much sums up his argument. Water, saved Noah and family from water by lifting up in the arc [above water]. This equation removes Jesus, the Arc, as the saving agent, but has the water saving us from the water. The lengths that people will go...

What is the point of the parenthetical reference "not as a removal of dirt from the body"?

: Dave...  Wed Nov 12, 2025 - 11:42:13This pretty much sums up his argument. Water, saved Noah and family from water by lifting up in the arc [above water]. This equation removes Jesus, the Arc, as the saving agent, but has the water saving us from the water. The lengths that people will go...

Water or blood in parables is used to represent the Holy Spirit.

 
The Holy Spirit is Eternal God not H20.

: 4WD  Thu Nov 13, 2025 - 05:46:03What is the point of the parenthetical reference "not as a removal of dirt from the body"?

It means that water baptism doesn't save a person. What saves a person in the Spirit baptism. Receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit from Jesus which is always a result of faith. What makes us one with Jesus is what saves us. Faith...

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all placed into/immersed into one body [Jesus]--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

That's what gives us access to the resurrection by which we are born again, thus crucified with Him (Gal 2:20), and raised up with Him (Eph. 2:6). See Romans 6:3-11, Col. 2:9-14, Gal. 3:26-29, and...

1 Peter 3:21  There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

: garee  Thu Nov 13, 2025 - 07:26:32Water or blood in parables is used to represent the Holy Spirit.

 
The Holy Spirit is Eternal God not H20.

It's a simple picture being painted.

What saved Noah? Being in the Ark.

What was He saved from? God's judgment, the flood.

What saves us? Being "in Christ"

What are we saved from? God's judgment.

What places us in Christ?

Lest anyone be confused as to what Peter is saying, he also states "not the removal of filth from the flesh". Not water baptism. A baptism that saves, NOT the removal of filth from the flesh. The "appeal" is the work of faith in a believer's heart. That's what initiates Jesus putting His Spirit in us, called the placing into with the Holy Spirit. That's what gives us access to the resurrection, faith. The "Appeal in good conscience towards God" is what saves us. What brings the baptism spiritually, what gives us access to the resurrection because we are then placed into Christ by receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

: Dave...  Thu Nov 13, 2025 - 12:03:25It means that water baptism doesn't save a person. What saves a person in the Spirit baptism. Receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit from Jesus which is always a result of faith. What makes us one with Jesus is what saves us. Faith...

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all placed into/immersed into one body [Jesus]--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

That's what gives us access to the resurrection by which we are born again, thus crucified with Him (Gal 2:20), and raised up with Him (Eph. 2:6). See Romans 6:3-11, Col. 2:9-14, Gal. 3:26-29, and...

1 Peter 3:21  There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

If the subject of 1 Peter 3:21 was not water baptism, the parenthetical comment, "not the removal of the filth of the flesh", would not even have been included.  It is not a rejection of water baptism.  Conversely it is a firm affirmation of the purpose of water baptism.  It is in water baptism that the participant is appealing to God for a good conscience.  The participant in water baptism is not appealing to get physically clean; rather, he is appealing to God to get spiritually clean.

: 4WD  Fri Nov 14, 2025 - 05:18:36If the subject of 1 Peter 3:21 was not water baptism, the parenthetical comment, "not the removal of the filth of the flesh", would not even have been included.  It is not a rejection of water baptism.  Conversely it is a firm affirmation of the purpose of water baptism.  It is in water baptism that the participant is appealing to God for a good conscience.  The participant in water baptism is not appealing to get physically clean; rather, he is appealing to God to get spiritually clean.

The subject, the unseen Holy Spirit outwardly demonstrating to the world His "let there be labor of love " by  using "H20" as a ceremonial law a sign to the unbelieving world .

Not a sign to themselves proving they are Christians. Christian have prophecy till the end of time no need to wonder, wonder, wonder after  just as if new prophecy. 

2 Thessalonian2: 9-11 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Leviticus 10:1-2 King James Version And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the Lord, which he commanded them not.And there went out fire from the Lord, and devoured them, and they died before the Lord.

I remains a sign to the world today with the warning Do not add or subtract from the living word Sings for unbelievers--- believers walk by faith (invisible things of God   The "let there be" --good law

The law as power of faith the unseen eternal

Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works(What the eyes see) ? Nay: but by the law of faith.(power and glory)

I am sorry garee, but I never seem to understand what you are talking about. But I am sure that it is just me.

: 4WD  Fri Nov 14, 2025 - 07:12:37I am sorry garee, but I never seem to understand what you are talking about. But I am sure that it is just me.

Thanks one thing that I hope I am learning is how to use parables which the Bible declares "without" parables Christ in us spoke not. The focus without .

Parables do not change the temporal historical but do enrich it for the believers

Parables by itself can cause confusion just as they are designed to ---hide the spiritual truth from the god of this world . Mix that with  my poor grammar. A little digging is required .

They old testament parables as shadows of ceremonial laws were fulfilled at the time of reformation (Hebrew 9) One new cerinimoinal shadow (law) is shown in 1 Corinthian 11 (the head of hair covering parable )representing the glory of God it will be performed in the new heaven and earth.

It is the reason I replied in respect to that ceremonial sign of the sufferings of Christ before hand 

The ceremonial baptism subject, the unseen Holy Spirit outwardly H20 demonstrating to the world His "let there be labor of love " by  using "H20" as a ceremonial law a sign to the unbelieving world .

In that way The Lord has given us a valuable tool needed to righty divide the parables ---- the comparing of the things seen the temporal dying historical to the unseen eternal things

2 Corinthians 4 A very valuable mixing tool giving the spiritual understanding of parable which seems to get ignored in favor of signs to wonder, wonder, wonder after as if God was still adding to prophecy.

Parable can cause us to wonder just like that of the king of lying sign that some do wonder after .

It would seem today parables have been turned into lying signs to wonder, wonder, marvel after as if true prophecy. Satan working overtime

Christians no power. . faithless in living the dying temporal dust

2 Corinthians4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

The parable--- mixing recipe--

2 Corinthians4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

There are many examples where the Lord hid the gospel understanding in parables from the god of this world---- using parable in order to teach us how to mix the two.

One one occasion one right after another hiding of the unseen spiritual from the apostles  . At one point they had become so confused that even though jesus was two feet away thier took a vote for a new leader .They must had  thought Jesus the apostle  went off the deep end .

His own family the same confusion because of the parables . At the end as a parables in Luke 9 the apostle thought he was going toward Jerusalem for the Jews  but he went to the gentiles still confused they demanded God bring down fire and consume the Gentiles (out of sight out of mind . then after the series of parable he rebuked them and revealed to the apostles  they had no faith coming from Christ needed to understanding the parables

(Purple) my added comment

Luke 9:42-55 And as he was yet a coming, the devil threw him down, and tare him. And Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, and healed the child, and delivered him again to his father. And they were all amazed (not belief faith) at the mighty power of God. But while they wondered every one at all things which Jesus did, he said unto his disciples, Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men. But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying. Then there arose a reasoning among them, which of them should be greatest. ( like Jesus went off the deep end )And Jesus, perceiving the thought of their heart, took a child, and set him by him, And said unto them, Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great.And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us. And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem, And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.(they thought the apostle Jesus tricked them)And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.


 

: 4WD  Fri Nov 14, 2025 - 05:18:36If the subject of 1 Peter 3:21 was not water baptism, the parenthetical comment, "not the removal of the filth of the flesh", would not even have been included.  It is not a rejection of water baptism.  Conversely it is a firm affirmation of the purpose of water baptism.  It is in water baptism that the participant is appealing to God for a good conscience.  The participant in water baptism is not appealing to get physically clean; rather, he is appealing to God to get spiritually clean.

One thing that you can never say, is that you were never told.

: Dave...  Fri Nov 14, 2025 - 12:10:25One thing that you can never say, is that you were never told.

Never told what?

: 4WD  Fri Nov 14, 2025 - 15:46:37Never told what?

Good question.

Never told water is used as a metaphor used in parables.? Without parables Christ did not use metaphors.

: garee  Fri Nov 14, 2025 - 20:04:14Good question.

Never told water is used as a metaphor used in parables.? Without parables Christ did not use metaphors.

Yes, But every mention of water is not metaphorical.  In John's baptism in the water of the Jordan River, water is not used metaphorically.

: 4WD  Sat Nov 15, 2025 - 02:23:28Yes, But every mention of water is not metaphorical.  In John's baptism in the water of the Jordan River, water is not used metaphorically.

Hi Thanks for the reply.

I would offer. . .John baptism the priest  passed down the priesthood to the tribe of Judah the priesthood of believer to represent all the nation .


H20 used as  ceremonial law as shadow of the unseen eternal. A sign to the unbelieving world . Born again believers have the perfect no need to wonder wonder, wonder after as if true prophecy .

Satan the king of lying signs to wonder, wonder, wonder after as if true prophecy would make the shadow the true substance.

Lucifer the false prophet  is blind to spiritual understanding of the gospel.

The father of lies a guessing god is not subject to the spiritual understanding of the parable revealed to the believers


The law of integrity---- do not add or subtract from sola scriptura .

Aarons two sons (witness of two) used the metaphor H20 as a personal sign as thier own oral tradition (strange fire) making the written tradition of Christ without effect.

To show it is a shadow of the unseen eternal a sign to the unbelieving world and not thier own dying flesh. The fire consumed the two----- up in smoke--- not a hint of smoke on the ceremonial attire .

The ceremonial attire as a shadow looked ahead to the sufferings of Christ beforehand and the glory that did follow the three days and night prophesied demonstration of the Lamb slain during the 6 days the Holy Father did work 
 
1 Peter 1:8-11 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your (born again) faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
 
The one purpose of a parable the signified understanding using the temporal things seen the historical and mix with the unseen eternal Spirit that works in the born again sons of God called Christians. .  hid from those who do not trust prophecy a sign of wonderment to draw them into sola scriptura   


Numbers 3:3-5King James Version These are the names of the sons of Aaron, the priests which were anointed, whom he consecrated to minister in the priest's office. And Nadab and Abihu died before the Lord, when they offered strange fire before the Lord, in the wilderness of Sinai, and they had no children: and Eleazar and Ithamar ministered in the priest's office in the sight of Aaron their father. And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

Ceremonial laws are alone used for ceremonies a religious observance not a religious action .In that way His kingdom does not come by observing dying mankind  .
 
Luke 17:20 DRA And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come? he answered them, and said: The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

Luke 17:20 ERV Some of the Pharisees asked Jesus, "When will God's kingdom come?" Jesus answered, "God's kingdom is coming, but not in a way that you can see it.

Luke 17:20 EASY Then some Pharisees asked Jesus a question. 'When will the kingdom of God begin here?' Jesus replied, 'When God begins to rule here, people will not see it with their eyes

   

: garee  Sat Nov 15, 2025 - 08:42:08Hi Thanks for the reply.

I would offer. . .John baptism the priest  passed down the priesthood to the tribe of Judah the priesthood of believer to represent all the nation .

The cleansing rituals of the old law was a self-cleansing action; it was not administered by another. The baptism of John was a completely new sort of ritual performed by him and by Jesus, in the persons of his disciples, the twelve. It was not any sort of carryover from the old priesthood.

: 4WD  Sun Nov 16, 2025 - 03:13:58The cleansing rituals of the old law was a self-cleansing action; it was not administered by another. The baptism of John was a completely new sort of ritual performed by him and by Jesus, in the persons of his disciples, the twelve. It was not any sort of carryover from the old priesthood.

4WD

I asked Grok and he replied...

No — John's baptism was not a "completely new" ritual invented out of thin air.

It was a new application of existing Jewish purification practices, but with a radical new meaning tied to repentance for the kingdom — and Jesus' disciples continued it in His name.

John's baptism was not a carryover from the old priesthood.

It was a prophetic adaptation of Jewish ritual washings (mikveh, proselyte baptism),
with a new message: "Repent, the kingdom is near!"

Jesus' disciples continued it — first under John's model, then in Jesus' name (Acts 2:38).

John's baptism did not convey the gift of the Holy Spirit, but  baptism in Jesus' name DID convey the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 19:1-6

1 While Apollos was in Corinth, Paul traveled through the interior regions and came to Ephesus. He found some disciples
2 and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed? "
"No," they told him, "we haven't even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
3 "Into what then were you baptized? " he asked them.
"Into John's baptism," they replied.
4 Paul said, "John baptized with a baptism of repentance, telling the people that they should believe in the one who would come after him, that is, in Jesus."
5 When they heard this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began to speak in tongues and to prophesy.

Presumably Paul laid hands on them to convey the Spirit UPON (tongues and prophesy) rather than the indwelling gift they got when baptised in Jesus' name.

: Jaime  Sun Nov 16, 2025 - 14:59:58John's baptism did not convey the gift of the Holy Spirit, but  baptism in Jesus' name DID convey the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Presumably Paul laid hands on them to convey the Spirit UPON (tongues and prophesy) rather than the indwelling gift they got when baptised in Jesus' name.

Can't separate the gift from the baptism .

The baptism of new born again spirit life---- is the gift of eternal life.

: garee  Sun Nov 16, 2025 - 19:37:23Can't separate the gift from the baptism .

The baptism of new born again spirit life---- is the gift of eternal life.

Paul conveyed the Spirit UPON to them for a purpose. They had the indwelling gift as a result of bapfism in Christ's name. Same as me personally. I have never had the Spirit UPON with tongues and prophecy. I am assurred of my indwelling gift of the Spirit as promised at my baptism in Christ's name. Therefore the gift of prophecy and to tongues IS or usually IS seperate from water baptism in Christ's name, as the verse above indicates.

: Jaime  Sun Nov 16, 2025 - 20:45:49Paul conveyed the Spirit UPON to them for a purpose. They had the indwelling gift as a result of bapfism in Christ's name. Same as me personally. I have never had the Spirit UPON with tongues and prophecy. I am assurred of my indwelling gift of the Spirit as promised at my baptism in Christ's name. Therefore the gift of prophecy and to tongues IS or usually IS seperate from water baptism in Christ's name, as the verse above indicates.

HEAR!! HEAR!!

I would add that the gift of prophecy, tongues and all signs, wonders and miracles ALWAYS IS separate from water baptism in Christ's name, as the verse above indicates.

: Rella  Sun Nov 16, 2025 - 08:23:294WD

I asked Grok and he replied...

No — John's baptism was not a "completely new" ritual invented out of thin air.

It was a new application of existing Jewish purification practices, but with a radical new meaning tied to repentance for the kingdom — and Jesus' disciples continued it in His name.

John's baptism was not a carryover from the old priesthood.

It was a prophetic adaptation of Jewish ritual washings (mikveh, proselyte baptism),
with a new message: "Repent, the kingdom is near!"

Jesus' disciples continued it — first under John's model, then in Jesus' name (Acts 2:38).

The Jewish ritual washings were self administered and not administered by another.  So yes I believe that John's baptism was a new thing to the Jews.

In a very real sense, the idea of individual repentance was new. You do not find the word or concept of that much at all in the OT.  Repenting and repentance was used more in the sense of national repentance.  See for example Ezekiel 14:6; 18:30.

: 4WD  Mon Nov 17, 2025 - 03:43:05The Jewish ritual washings were self administered and not administered by another.  So yes I believe that John's baptism was a new thing to the Jews.

In a very real sense, the idea of individual repentance was new. You do not find the word or concept of that much at all in the OT.  Repenting and repentance was used more in the sense of national repentance.  See for example Ezekiel 14:6; 18:30.

John's baptism was used and represented as a parable .Which without parables Christ our teaching master spoke not.

The priesthood passed on from the tribe of Levi to the new testament after Jesus the Son of man from the tribe of Judah (the tribe that represents Christianity)  named by the father in Acts named after Christ our Holy Father.'
 

In that baptism parable using water to represent the unseen eternal work of our Holy Father.

Aarons two sons on thier first day of entering the priesthood of dying mankind   Both added to the living word with thier own 15 second of false fame .


The strange fire(adding to the word)  they offered (look we did it. . it proves we are righteous, consumed them both not a hint of smoke on the priestly attire .

Believer have prohecy till he end of time .Its a un-redeemed  generation like that of Aarons two sons that seeks after lying signs to wonder, wonder, wonder after just as if true prophecy  We have the perfect sealed with 7 seals till the end of time . No need to wonder, wonder, wonder, limbo after if we have the eternal living word

The house of Israel. Remember the word Israel is used in two ways .Satan having no spiritual understanding would make it all one in the same


Not all Israel is born agin Israel some remained as Jacob the second born meaning "the deceiver". His new born again name Israel

The Lord gives us a beautiful parable I beleive teaching us that repentance is a work of Christ who is not served by the dying hands as a will of mankind .

In the parable he uses a Bollock as a metaphor to represent un-redeemed mankind.

Therefore having no interest in the things of the lord. The Lord as Christ  performs his two part surgery spoken of in Philippian 2:13.  God our Holy Father---faithfully working in dying mankind to both the key Again I emphasize both working as one to reveal his will and empowers them to do it to the Holy Father's good pleasure .

Two turning or works of repenting. Two the metaphor used in parables to represent the invisible things of God called faith. At the witness of one no doctrine can be validated . Two the Holy Father not seen working in the son of man Jesus seen . two husbands and wife, tow or three gather under the hearing of his living word he is there . two by two the church  etc.   

Jeremiah 31:18-20King James Version I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock (unredeemed) unaccustomed to the yoke: (1st) turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God.Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after(2nd) that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.
 
Full circle God forgives---having been forgiven they are reminded to put away childish things .

Another example found in another repenting parable


 Like the parable of the Bullock. God using his living word to turn some and as a labor of love causes them to turn back to him the leader .

Our Holy Father hated the sign and wonders seekers like Nicodemus also
 
Revelation 2:1-6  King James Version2 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love (hearing God and obeying). Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works;(hear God moved by God)  or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.

Either Christ does all the work of repenting or he causes nothing .It becomes --"Let there be" and "it was good for nothing"

: 4WD  Mon Nov 17, 2025 - 03:43:05The Jewish ritual washings were self administered and not administered by another.  So yes I believe that John's baptism was a new thing to the Jews.

In a very real sense, the idea of individual repentance was new. You do not find the word or concept of that much at all in the OT.  Repenting and repentance was used more in the sense of national repentance.  See for example Ezekiel 14:6; 18:30.

I'm not sure the idea of individual repentance is in the New Testament, either.

Baptism seems to be about joining a group, not improving oneself, or attaining to salvation on our own.

: garee  Mon Nov 17, 2025 - 08:06:40The priesthood passed on from the tribe of Levi to the new testament after Jesus the Son of man from the tribe of Judah (the tribe that represents Christianity)  named by the father in Acts named after Christ our Holy Father.'

The Levitical priesthood wasn't passed on to someone else.  It straight up ended.

Jesus became high priest in an entirely different order.  Jesus is a priest after the order of Melchizedek; He did not become part of the Aaronic/Levitical priesthood.

Hebrews 7

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Mon Nov 17, 2025 - 12:40:49I'm not sure the idea of individual repentance is in the New Testament, either.

Baptism seems to be about joining a group, not improving oneself, or attaining to salvation on our own.

Peter's command in Acts 2:38 to REPENT and be baptised was nothing but a command TO individuals FOR forgiveness of sins and TO receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

As a result:

Acts 2:47 —> praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. Every day the Lord added to their number those who were being saved.

HOW were they saved? (see Acts 2:38) ny repenting, and being baptised for forgiveness of sin and receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Where is your disconnect on this? Why would you say it's not to improve one's self or about salvation, but only of joining a group? Seems rather straight straight forward to me.

: Jaime  Mon Nov 17, 2025 - 12:59:54Peter's command in Acts 2:38 to REPENT and be baptised was nothing but a command TO individuals FOR forgiveness of sins and TO receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I would quibble with the bolded part.

Peter was addressing the whole congregation of Israel that had assembled for the prescribed feast.  It isn't obvious that this is about individuals.

: Jaime  Mon Nov 17, 2025 - 12:59:54As a result:

Acts 2:47 —> praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. Every day the Lord added to their number those who were being saved.

Yes, they joined the group.

: Jaime  Mon Nov 17, 2025 - 12:59:54HOW were they saved? (see Acts 2:38) by repenting, and being baptised for forgiveness of sin and receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Yes, by repenting... Repentance isn't about individuals.  It's the abolition of the individual bringing their mind into conformity with the group.

Yes, by baptism.... baptism for proselytes is an adoption ceremony.  It's all about inclusion in a group.

Yes, by the gift of the Holy Spirit... which gift is the adoption (Romans 8).

: Jaime  Mon Nov 17, 2025 - 12:59:54Where is your disconnect on this? Why would you say it's not to improve one's self or about salvation, but only of joining a group? Seems rather straight straight forward to me.

No disconnect on my end.  Salvation has always been a group thing.  The elect aren't Tom, Dick, and Harry... the elect is Israel, from the front cover of the Bible to the back.

Salvation is a matter of a person (A) becoming part of a group (A ∈ Israel).

Yes it Is an individual thing. For those that accept the free gift. They didn't join a group, God adds those who are saved to the church. The act or rite doesn't add them, God does the adding or grafting in of those being saved.  Baptism is where forgiveness of sin is conveyed as well as the gift of the Holy Spirit. Possession of forgiveness of sin and the gift of the Holy Spirit ARE salvation.  Baptism is not a punched ticket, it is dropping a clenched fist of resistance and accepting the free gift of salvation.

: Jaime  Mon Nov 17, 2025 - 15:05:28Yes it Is an individual thing. For those that accept the free gift. They didn't join a group, God adds those who are saved to the church. The act or rite doesn't add them, God does the adding or grafting in of those being saved.  Baptism is where forgiveness of sin is conveyed as well as the gift of the Holy Spirit. Possession of forgiveness of sin and the gift of the Holy Spirit ARE salvation.  Baptism is not a punched ticket, it is dropping a clenched fist of resistance and accepting the free gift of salvation.

No. Baptism is the ceremony connected to faith and it is definitely a connection to the group.  It was a formal declaration and belonging to Jesus.  In Israel the bodies of water would have been public.  The standard cofc understanding of baptism is too focused on "the remission of sins" and parses out faith and everything else. 

It is an individual decision. It's purpose is for individual salvation. A result of being saved is we are added by God to Christ's church.

The original point someone made was that repentance was a national thing in the OT.  It is purely an individual decision in the NT, yet we ARE added by God to his congregation.

I assume a nation could definitely still turn from its wicked ways, but NT salvation is an individual thing.

: Jaime  Mon Nov 17, 2025 - 16:15:24It is an individual decision. It's purpose is for individual salvation. A result of being saved is we are added by God to Christ's church.

The original point someone made was that repentance was a national thing in the OT.  It is purely an individual decision in the NT, yet we ARE added by God to his congregation.

I assume a nation could definitely still turn from its wicked ways, but NT salvation is an individual thing.

You divorce baptism from faith.  You also miss there are other purposes accomplished in baptism

: Texas Conservative  Mon Nov 17, 2025 - 17:08:33You divorce baptism from faith.  You also miss there are other purposes accomplished in baptism

I haven't divorced baptism from faith. Faith is the pre-requisite 100% of the time, otherwise one just got ceremonially wet. That is or should be a universal truth. Otherwise carnival dunking booths would be salvational, and we ALL know that isn't the case.

Neither do I divorce confessing with one's lips that Jesus is Lord, since scripture should be taken cummulatively, and not cherry picked. That can only be OK when one is trying to dismiss baptism in Christ name as integral in salvation apparently.

: Jaime  Mon Nov 17, 2025 - 17:44:40I haven't divorced baptism from faith. Faith is the pre-requisite 100% of the time, otherwise one just got ceremonially wet. That is or should be a universal truth. Otherwise carnival dunking booths would be salvational, and we ALL know that isn't the case.

Neither do I divorce confessing with one's lips that Jesus is Lord, since scripture should be taken cummulatively, and not cherry picked. That can only be OK when one is trying to dismiss baptism in Christ name as integral in salvation apparently.

Faith is separate from baptism, but baptism is not separate from faith.  There are not five separate acts of salvation.  Baptism is a surrender of faith.  It isn't I who divorces baptism and parses it. 

: Texas Conservative  Mon Nov 17, 2025 - 18:21:50Faith is separate from baptism, but baptism is not separate from faith.  There are not five separate acts of salvation.  Baptism is a surrender of faith.  It isn't I who divorces baptism and parses it. 

It isn't me either. I have never divorced baptism from faith and do not advocate doing so. Baptism is a faith response. Inextricably linked to faith. There may be people that do what you said, I am not one of them. In my reckoning, baptism has never been parsed from faith in my view. That would be ludicrous. I just previously described it as a surrender of faith. Have I eseen people try to do that? Absolutely and yes they are wrong. 

In case I have been clear, a baptism does not  occur apart from faith. Getting wet does not  constitute a baptism or any other semblance of  a faith response.

Followup question: would true faith inspire a several year wait in one's scriptural faith response as many do? Do they  not try to divorce baptism from faith, the inverse of what you accuse me of and I adamantly AND ADEQUATELY have refuted

: Jaime  Mon Nov 17, 2025 - 19:04:29It isn't me either. I have never divorced baptism from faith and do not advocate doing so. Baptism is a faith response. Inextricably linked to faith. There may be people that do what you said, I am not one of them. In my reckoning, baptism has never been parsed from faith in my virw. That would be ludicrous.

New born again creatures not reconditioned by reincarnation All things "let there be" new.

Christ creative faith "let there be" is always God alone--- good .

Most do not attribute the work of the powerful "Let there be" faith to God .as if it was not necessary to believe exercise the work of faith before things appear

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Mon Nov 17, 2025 - 14:09:36I would quibble with the bolded part.

Peter was addressing the whole congregation of Israel that had assembled for the prescribed feast.  It isn't obvious that this is about individuals.

Act 2:38  And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

That seems to me to be addressed to every individual that had assembled there.

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Mon Nov 17, 2025 - 14:09:36Yes, by the gift of the Holy Spirit... which gift is the adoption (Romans 8).
No disconnect on my end.  Salvation has always been a group thing.  The elect aren't Tom, Dick, and Harry... the elect is Israel, from the front cover of the Bible to the back.

Salvation is a matter of a person (A) becoming part of a group (A ∈ Israel).

Becoming a part of the group is an individual thing by individually being forgiven of sins and being given the gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit.  And that in response to the individual's believing.

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Mon Nov 17, 2025 - 14:09:36Yes, by repenting... Repentance isn't about individuals.  It's the abolition of the individual bringing their mind into conformity with the group.

Repentance is absolutely about individuals.  Only the individual can repent.  The group cannot repent for the individual.

: 4WD  Tue Nov 18, 2025 - 04:10:17Repentance is absolutely about individuals.  Only the individual can repent.  The group cannot repent for the individual.

How can a person repent if dead in their trespass and and sin without Hope in this world  without a living God?

Who does the first "let there be" and "it was a good work" of turning ?

God must first turn us so that we in return empowered by him can turn to him .Two turning .the law of two ---#1 According to the faithfulness of Christ ."Let there be" and #2-- the witness of the unseen work  - -and--- "it was God alone" good .

Two the law "Let there be" and working with to its testimony  as one voice.

Isaiah 8 informs us if they do not seek the understnding of our invible Holy Father according to the law of faith--- the invisible working of Christ, then there is no gospel light. 

They must rather seek after the legion of gods disembodied workers  with familiar spirit of the dead that some call patron saints .They reject the "Let there be" faithfulness of our faithful Creator Christ according to sola scriptura which they hate so they can serve the oral tradition of dying mankind as a law of the fathers .(two kinds of fathers )

Isaiah 8:19-20 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? To the law(let there be) and to the testimony:(it was God alone good)  if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
 
The law of faith or the law of hearing the understanding of Christ not seen  two turnings by one powerful "Let there be"

Jeremiah 31:17-19 King James VersionI have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock(unredeemed)  unaccustomed to the yoke: (#1 "Let there be" )turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God. Surely after that I was turned,(#2 it was God alone good) )I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.

: garee  Tue Nov 18, 2025 - 08:09:22How can a person repent if dead in their trespass and and sin without Hope in this world  without a living God?

Without a Living God, there would be no reason to repent.

: 4WD  Tue Nov 18, 2025 - 03:49:53Act 2:38  And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

That seems to me to be addressed to every individual that had assembled there.

2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all [ye] that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words...

It was a message to all the INDIVIDUALS in Jerusalem and all of Judea. A message he was expecting individuals to respond to. About 3000 individuals DID! How many didn't on that crowded Feat day?

: 4WD  Tue Nov 18, 2025 - 04:10:17Repentance is absolutely about individuals.  Only the individual can repent.  The group cannot repent for the individual.

Repent: μετανοέω G3340
From μετά (G3326) and νοέω (G3539)

μετά means 'with'
νοέω means 'mind'

So... to change one's mind to be in agreement with...

To change one's mind to repent and be like others that have repented is not the group repenting. It is the individual repenting. No arguement disputing that he/she is among many who have repented. It is still an individual phenomenon.

When I accepted Christ, it was not because of the many that had done so before, it was all about MY individual personal need for a savior.  I would think that is the case for every heart that experiences Godly sorrow that leads to repentance.

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Tue Nov 18, 2025 - 12:40:02Repent: μετανοέω G3340
From μετά (G3326) and νοέω (G3539)

μετά means 'with'
νοέω means 'mind'

So... to change one's mind to be in agreement with...

Yes.....to change one's mind.

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Tue Nov 18, 2025 - 12:40:02Repent: μετανοέω G3340
From μετά (G3326) and νοέω (G3539)

μετά means 'with'
νοέω means 'mind'

So... to change one's mind to be in agreement with...

But that is only PART of the issue.   The first part is teshuva - Root word shuv (H7725) which means to turn around and go back.

Just a change of mind is inadequate.  It must have an accompanying change of action.

: Jaime  Tue Nov 18, 2025 - 12:36:28It was a message to all the INDIVIDUALS in Jerusalem and all of Judea. A message he was expecting individuals to respond to. About 3000 individuals DID!

Yes, and they were then added to the group that is predestined for salvation.

: DaveW  Wed Nov 19, 2025 - 10:18:08But that is only PART of the issue.   The first part is teshuva - Root word shuv (H7725) which means to turn around and go back.

Just a change of mind is inadequate.  It must have an accompanying change of action.

Are you comparing usage in the Septuagint vs the Hebrew?  Not sure how the Hebrew came into this?  We're in Acts 2.

: 4WD  Tue Nov 18, 2025 - 10:03:58Without a Living God, there would be no reason to repent.

Without our living God needed to turn those dead in their trespass and sin without hope and  no ressurection power coming from  the dying flesh and blood 

The law of faith  "Be turned or moved. . . and they were turned as a result. After Christ turn them the then empowered can move.   

Why ignore the law of repentance. Two turnings . with by Christ's faithful nes turns us to hear him having heard the living word or having been turned .In return we can complete the will of the Holy Father


Jeremiah 31:18I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock (un redeemed) unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God. Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.

Again we have the power of Christ needed to turn us but we would never say it is of those dead in the trespass and sin .

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we(dead in tresspass and sin)  have this treasure in earthen vessels,(dying)  that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

If that the case---- if dying mankind is looking for self approval "Look at me I did it) Why not just say I read my Bible as evidence of being turned ? .

: DaveW  Wed Nov 19, 2025 - 10:18:08But that is only PART of the issue.   The first part is teshuva - Root word shuv (H7725) which means to turn around and go back.

Just a change of mind is inadequate.  It must have an accompanying change of action.

I have not denied the need for an accompanying change of action.  But the fact is that in the New Covenant, the issue of salvation is to the individual, not the group. One joins the group by becoming saved.