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I had started this topic on the last boards I was posting in. Before they locked it and others down, and removed me from membership. I think it is worthy of time and consideration, and so will restart it here with continuing posts upon the subject. Please do contribute as you wish.

chap. xxv.—the phœnix an emblem of our resurrection.

Let us consider that wonderful sign [of the resurrection] which takes place in Eastern lands, that is, in Arabia and the countries round about. There is a certain bird which is called a phœnix. This is the only one of its kind, and lives five hundred years. And when the time of its dissolution draws near that it must die, it builds itself a nest of frankincense, and myrrh, and other spices, into which, when the time is fulfilled, it enters and dies. But as the flesh decays a certain kind of worm is produced, which, being nourished by the juices of the dead bird, brings forth feathers. Then, when it has acquired strength, it takes up that nest in which are the bones of its parent, and bearing these it passes from the land of Arabia into Egypt, to the city called Heliopolis. And, in open day, flying in the sight of all men, it places them on the altar of the sun, and having done this, hastens back to its former abode. The priests then inspect the registers of the dates, and find that it has returned exactly as the five hundredth year was completed.

chap. xxvi.—we shall rise again, then, as the scripture also testifies.

Do we then deem it any great and wonderful thing for the Maker of all things to raise up again those that have piously served Him in the assurance of a good faith, when even by a bird He shows us the mightiness of His power to fulfil His promise? For [the Scripture] saith in a certain place, "Thou shalt raise me up, and I shall confess unto Thee;"  and again, "I laid me down, and slept; I awaked, because Thou art with me;" and again, Job says, "Thou shalt raise up this flesh of mine, which has suffered all these things."

(Clement of Rome, "The First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 12.)

The above quote is one of the reasons I consider the writings of the "Church Fathers" to be inferior to holy scripture. This early on, Clement is already introducing pagan mythology into the mix, to be considered regarding the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ and his faithful followers.

Phoenix | Egyptian, Greek & Roman | Britannica

Quoted article below from link above.

phoenix, in ancient Egypt and in Classical antiquity, a fabulous bird associated with the worship of the sun. The Egyptian phoenix was said to be as large as an eagle, with brilliant scarlet and gold plumage and a melodious cry. Only one phoenix existed at any time, and it was very long-lived—no ancient authority gave it a life span of less than 500 years. As its end approached, the phoenix fashioned a nest of aromatic boughs and spices, set it on fire, and was consumed in the flames. From the pyre miraculously sprang a new phoenix, which, after embalming its father's ashes in an egg of myrrh, flew with the ashes to Heliopolis ("City of the Sun") in Egypt, where it deposited them on the altar in the temple of the Egyptian god of the sun, Re. A variant of the story made the dying phoenix fly to Heliopolis and immolate itself in the altar fire, from which the young phoenix then rose.

The Egyptians associated the phoenix with immortality, and that symbolism had a widespread appeal in late antiquity. The phoenix was compared to undying Rome, and it appears on the coinage of the late Roman Empire as a symbol of the Eternal City. It was also widely interpreted as an allegory of resurrection and life after death—ideas that also appealed to emergent Christianity.

In Islamic mythology the phoenix was identified with the ʿanqāʾ (Persian: sīmorgh), a huge mysterious bird (probably a heron) that was originally created by God with all perfections but thereafter became a plague and was killed.

So, here we have in the writings of Clement, the introduction of pagan sun worshiping mythology. A trend that would only increase over time unto the formation of the first mandated form of "Christianity" for the Roman Empire. One heavily influenced and established by professed converted sun worshipping Emperors, and a mass of pagan sun worshippers brought into the "Church" via imperial mandate over and above gospel believing conviction and conversion.

Did you want to talk about Clement specifically, or all church fathers?

I find your criticism of Clement to be fair.

I don't think you can/should extend it to all the other writings of the church fathers, except perhaps to someone who was the student of Clement.

I began reading and examining a collection of them, and addressing things which did not seem to line up very well with Holy Scripture. I only made it so far, before they locked down the topic. The intention is to go through them all over time, reading them all, and comparing their writings with that of the scriptures as well. Pointing out where they appear to have drifted away from scripture, from my point of view or knowledge in any case.

I have some more posts regarding that which I have already examined, after which the pace will probably slow down, as I will have to continue reading the rest of course, before commenting. I have read some of them in the past, but never studied them as a whole. Which will no doubt take quite some time.

Having finished reading Clement of Rome, apart from his reference to the Phoenix, the work seems to be very biblically based. Somewhat generic though, in that it did not address any of the specifics of the contentions it was addressing. Focussed upon salvation in Christ alone, our High Priest. The importance of faith, right living, the commandments of God and Jesus, and unity of course. As the holy scriptures admonish us to keep the commandments of God, without any reference to the changing of the fourth commandment, so also does this address by Clement. Unless of course a contention regarding such a change was one of the issues he was addressing, which we do not know. Seems like there would have been some debate about such a change, if it were occurring at the time. So probably not. I suppose I will move on to the Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus next.

: Amo  Sun Dec 21, 2025 - 21:12:21Having finished reading Clement of Rome, apart from his reference to the Phoenix, the work seems to be very biblically based. Somewhat generic though, in that it did not address any of the specifics of the contentions it was addressing. Focussed upon salvation in Christ alone, our High Priest. The importance of faith, right living, the commandments of God and Jesus, and unity of course. As the holy scriptures admonish us to keep the commandments of God, without any reference to the changing of the fourth commandment, so also does this address by Clement. Unless of course a contention regarding such a change was one of the issues he was addressing, which we do not know. Seems like there would have been some debate about such a change, if it were occurring at the time. So probably not. I suppose I will move on to the Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus next.

I found Clement to be very top-down-authoritarian, which I suppose is to be expected in Rome itself.  I don't find the NT to be that way, though.

Among the early church fathers, I find the Didache and the Epistle of Barnabas to be most trustworthy.

Agreed. Christ is the head, the rest of us are the body, to do as the mind directs us.

I've read parts of them some time ago. Intend to get to them along with the rest as time allows.

Emphasis in the following quoted materials is mine.

THE EPISTLE OF MATHETES TO DIOGNETUS

CHAP. I.—OCCASION OF THE EPISTLE.

SINCE I see thee, most excellent Diognetus, exceedingly desirous to learn the mode of worshipping God prevalent among the Christians, and inquiring very carefully and earnestly concerning them, what God they trust in, and what form of religion they observe, so as all to look down upon the world itself, and despise death, while they neither esteem those to be gods that are reckoned such by the Greeks, nor hold to the superstition of the Jews; and what is the affection which they cherish among themselves; and why, in fine, this new kind or practice [of piety] has only now entered into the world, and not long ago; I cordially welcome this thy desire, and I implore God, who enables us both to speak and to hear, to grant to me so to speak, that, above all, I may hear you have been edified, and to you so to hear, that I who speak may have no cause of regret for having done so.

CHAP. II.—THE VANITY OF IDOLS.

Come, then, after you have freed yourself from all prejudices possessing your mind, and laid aside what you have been accustomed to, as something apt to deceive you, and being made, as if from the beginning, a new man, inasmuch as, according to your own confession, you are to be the hearer of a new [system of] doctrine; come and contemplate, not with your eyes only, but with your understanding, the substance and the form of those whom ye declare and deem to be gods. Is not one of them a stone similar to that on which we tread? Is not a second brass, in no way superior to those vessels which are constructed for our ordinary use? Is not a third wood, and that already rotten? Is not a fourth silver, which needs a man to watch it, lest it be stolen? Is not a fifth iron, consumed by rust? Is not a sixth earthenware, in no degree more valuable than that which is formed for the humblest purposes? Are not all these of corruptible matter? Are they not fabricated by means of iron and fire? Did not the sculptor fashion one of them, the brazier a second, the silversmith a third, and the potter a fourth? Was not every one of them, before they were formed by the arts of these [workmen] into the shape of these [gods], each in its own way subject to change? Would not those things which are now vessels, formed of the same materials, become like to such, if they met with the same artificers? Might not these, which are now worshipped by you, again be made by men vessels similar to others? Are they not all deaf? Are they not blind? Are they not without life? Are they not destitute of feeling? Are they not incapable of motion? Are they not all liable to rot? Are they not all corruptible? These things ye call gods; these ye serve; these ye worship; and ye become altogether like to them. For this reason ye hate the Christians, because they do not deem these to be gods. But do not ye yourselves, who now think and suppose [such to be gods], much more cast contempt upon them than they [the Christians do]? Do ye not much more mock and insult them, when ye worship those that are made of stone and earthenware, without appointing any persons to guard them; but those made of silver and gold ye shut up by night, and appoint watchers to look after them by day, lest they be stolen? And by those gifts which ye mean to present to them, do ye not, if they are possessed of sense, rather punish [than honour] them? But if, on the other hand, they are destitute of sense, ye convict them of this fact, while ye worship them with blood and the smoke of sacrifices. Let any one of you suffer such indignities! Let any one of you endure to have such things done to himself! But not a single human being will, unless compelled to it, endure such treatment, since he is endowed with sense and reason. A stone, however, readily bears it, seeing it is insensible. Certainly you do not show [by your conduct] that he [your God] is possessed of sense. And as to the fact that Christians are not accustomed to serve such gods, I might easily find many other things to say; but if even what has been said does not seem to any one sufficient, I deem it idle to say anything further.

CHAP. III.—SUPERSTITIONS OF THE JEWS.

And next, I imagine that you are most desirous of hearing something on this point, that the Christians do not observe the same forms of divine worship as do the Jews. The Jews, then, if they abstain from the kind of service above described, and deem it proper to worship one God as being Lord of all, [are right]; but if they offer Him worship in the way which we have described, they greatly err. For while the Gentiles, by offering such things to those that are destitute of sense and hearing, furnish an example of madness; they, on the other hand by thinking to offer these things to God as if He needed them, might justly reckon it rather an act of folly than of divine worship. For He that made heaven and earth, and all that is therein, and gives to us all the things of which we stand in need, certainly requires none of those things which He Himself bestows on such as think of furnishing them to Him. But those who imagine that, by means of blood, and the smoke of sacrifices and burnt-offerings, they offer sacrifices [acceptable] to Him, and that by such honours they show Him respect,—these, by supposing that they can give anything to Him who stands in need of nothing, appear to me in no respect to differ from those who studiously confer the same honour on things destitute of sense, and which therefore are unable to enjoy such honours.

CHAP. IV.—THE OTHER OBSERVANCES OF THE JEWS.

But as to their scrupulosity concerning meats, and their superstition as respects the Sabbaths, and their boasting about circumcision, and their fancies about fasting and the new moons, which are utterly ridiculous and unworthy of notice,—I do not think that you require to learn anything from me. For, to accept some of those things which have been formed by God for the use of men as properly formed, and to reject others as useless and redundant,—how can this be lawful? And to speak falsely of God, as if He forbade us to do what is good on the Sabbath-days,—how is not this impious? And to glory in the circumcision of the flesh as a proof of election, and as if, on account of it, they were specially beloved by God,—how is it not a subject of ridicule? And as to their observing months and days, as if waiting upon the stars and the moon, and their distributing, according to their own tendencies, the appointments of God, and the vicissitudes of the seasons, some for festivities, and others for mourning,—who would deem this a part of divine worship, and not much rather a manifestation of folly? I suppose, then, you are sufficiently convinced that the Christians properly abstain from the vanity and error common [to both Jews and Gentiles], and from the busy-body spirit and vain boasting of the Jews; but you must not hope to learn the mystery of their peculiar mode of worshipping God from any mortal.

Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, eds., "The Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 25–26.

In the above quoted portions of THE EPISTLE OF MATHETES TO DIOGNETUS, we begin to see greater departure, or shall we say deviation from the testimony of holy scripture. In an attempt it appears, to distance "Christianity" from the Jews and apparently the teachings of the Old Testament. In the very first chapter referring to "the superstitions of the Jews", and alluding to "Christianity" as a new religion, rather than the New Covenant era of the most ancient and true religion or message on earth. The everlasting gospel of Jesus Christ.

In the second chapter we see that Mathetes does not consider all Jewish or Old Testament teaching as superstition, since his stance upon idols is most obviously identical to that of the Jews and Old Testament teaching. Particularly in line with that of the first and second commandments of God. These commandments in any case, he has not ditched into the category of superstition. Nevertheless, declaring anything the Jews believed by commandment and or teaching of God within holy scripture to have become superstition during the New covenant era, is gross error. Our God is not, has never been, and will not ever be the creator or propagator of superstitions.

Chapter three misses and excellent opportunity to address the changes from Old Covenant to New Covenant teaching and practice regarding the sacrificial system. That of the Old Covenant being fulfilled by the once and for all sacrifice of the New Covenant in Christ Jesus our Lord. And the spiritual sacrifice of the saved themselves, in response to the gospel, during this New Covenant era.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Nothing about the Israelites sacrificial system had anything to do with superstition, but rather the revelation of the everlasting gospel in type and symbol until the antitype appeared. The Lamb of God, Christ Jesus our Lord. The fulfillment of biblical prophecy which each and every sacrifice was intended to represent and foretell. These teachings and practices of the Old Covenant did not turn into superstition by the establishment of the New Covenant. Rather it became fulfilled prophecy which still had great depth of meaning and revelation concerning the gospel. Providing excellent opportunity for instruction concerning the continuity of the everlasting gospel throughout our earth's history. God's people of the Old Covenant having exercised prophetic faith in the forgiveness of their sins by the sacrifice of the LAMB OF GOD, the Messiah of the Jews.  And those of the New Covenant accepting the reality of that sacrifice for them, in the life, crucifixion, and resurrection of Christ Jesus our Lord.

Chapter four becomes more specific in addressing what Mathetes deems to be superstition. Which includes teaching and practices concerning meats, Sabbaths, circumcision, new moons, observation of months and days, some for festivities and others for mourning. Referring to these Old covenant teachings and observances as not just superstition, but actual folly concerning authentic worship. All of these which were commanded to be observed by the very God Mathetes claimed to worship. As though God Himself instituted worthless, superstitious, folly to be observed by the people He Himself chose for a nation to be a witness among all the other nations of this earth. Perhaps Mathetes will expound upon the subject later in more depth, to the proper effect of the real folly concerning all such. In that they were never meant to be the means of salvation which so many of Israel often made them. Nor of course in many cases, meant to be observed by the multitudes of the saved from other nations during the New Covenant dispensation.

Nevertheless, these commanded teachings and observances established by God Himself for Israel never were and or will be mere worthless superstitions or folly. They had exact purpose, intent, value, and lessons of importance for those of the Old Covenant era, none of which has disappeared in this New Covenant era. The lessons and purposes are still there to be studied unto increased knowledge of God's guidance and providence for His people throughout history. As the New Testament writers themsleves expounded upon, rightly dividing the word of God under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit of God. As the Old Covenant prophets did as well. There is no folly at all in the teachings and observances of the Old Covenant, but by sinful humanity itself in attributing such to the cause of their salvation. Instead of observing that which God commanded and or commands because of their salvation in Him alone. Which problem exists to this very day, among professed Christianity. Being a natural inclination of our fallen natures, which must always be guarded against.

It is interesting to note that Mathetes makes a distinction between the Sabbaths of the "Jews" which he refers to as superstitions, and the weekly Sabbath day or days of the fourth commandment, which he apparently did not consider to be part of such superstitions. The Lightfoot & Harmer translation translates Mathetes reference to the Sabbaths which it is lawful to do good upon, as sabbath day, not days.

(from: _Apostolic Fathers_ Lightfoot & Harmer, 1891 translation)
4:3 And again to lie against God, as if He forbad us to do any good thing on the sabbath day, is not this profane?

Which testimony is itself a direct reference to the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ concerning God's weekly seventh day sabbath established at creation by His word , spoken by the mouth of God and written with His own finger for his chosen people twice among His Ten Commandments. Not the other sabbaths specific to the ceremony, holidays, and or agriculture of the nation of Israel. Those of the law written for them by the hand of Moses.

Mat 12:9 And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue: 10 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him. 11  And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? 12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days. 13 Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other. 14 Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.

Luk 6:6  And it came to pass also on another sabbath, that he entered into the synagogue and taught: and there was a man whose right hand was withered. 7 And the scribes and Pharisees watched him, whether he would heal on the sabbath day; that they might find an accusation against him. 8 But he knew their thoughts, and said to the man which had the withered hand, Rise up, and stand forth in the midst. And he arose and stood forth. 9 Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it ? 10 And looking round about upon them all, he said unto the man, Stretch forth thy hand. And he did so: and his hand was restored whole as the other.

Luk 14:1 And it came to pass, as he went into the house of one of the chief Pharisees to eat bread on the sabbath day, that they watched him. 2 And, behold, there was a certain man before him which had the dropsy. 3 And Jesus answering spake unto the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath day? 4 And they held their peace. And he took him, and healed him, and let him go; 5 And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day? 6 And they could not answer him again to these things.

If in fact God's seventh day Sabbath had been done away with by the early church, and replaced with a Sunday observance based upon the resurrection, these first two "Church Fathers" under examination address no such thing. Though many might choose to associate Mathetes reference to sabbaths of the Jews being among supposed superstitions which God Himself apparently instituted. His later reference to God's weekly seventh day Sabbath is problematic to such an idea though. In that he references our Lord's teaching regarding it, and the mistake which many Jews made in relation to it, without taking any opportunity to address any major changes concerning it. Even though changes and differences between the Jews and Christians was the exact context being discussed. In this Epistle exactly addressing the teachings of the early church, and its differences from the teachings and observances of the Jews.

If indeed Mathetes had already discontinued his observance of God's seventh day Sabbath, and firmly believed its observance to have been replaced by Sunday observance as the "Lord's day" in honor of the resurrection, it makes no sense for him to not address such. Neither in this Epistle at all, or even when the Sabbath itself was the exact topic being discussed, regarding the "mode of worshipping God prevalent among the Christians" in his day. Mathetes stated entire reason for this Epistle.

CHAP. VI.—THE RELATION OF CHRISTIANS TO THE WORLD.

To sum up all in one word—what the soul is in the body, that are Christians in the world. The soul is dispersed through all the members of the body, and Christians are scattered through all the cities of the world. The soul dwells in the body, yet is not of the body; and Christians dwell in the world, yet are not of the world. The invisible soul is guarded by the visible body, and Christians are known indeed to be in the world, but their godliness remains invisible. The flesh hates the soul, and wars against it, though itself suffering no injury, because it is prevented from enjoying pleasures; the world also hates the Christians, though in nowise injured, because they abjure pleasures. The soul loves the flesh that hates it, and [loves also] the members; Christians likewise love those that hate them. The soul is imprisoned in the body, yet preserves that very body; and Christians are confined in the world as in a prison, and yet they are the preservers of the world. The immortal soul dwells in a mortal tabernacle; and Christians dwell as sojourners in corruptible [bodies], looking for an incorruptible dwelling in the heavens. The soul, when but ill-provided with food and drink, becomes better; in like manner, the Christians, though subjected day by day to punishment, increase the more in number. God has assigned them this illustrious position, which it were unlawful for them to forsake.

Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, eds., "The Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 27.

In this sixth chapter of Mathetes we have the introduction of yet another ancient pagan concept and term. The immortal soul, or immortality of the soul. This term and or concept is found nowhere in holy scripture at all. To the contrary, souls are referred to as dying many times over in the scriptures.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

When God united His breath, or spirit with man, man became a living soul. A living soul is composed of body and spirit.

05397 hmvn n@shamah nesh-aw-maw'

from 05395; n f; {See TWOT on 1433 @@ '1433a'}

AV-breath 17, blast 3, spirit 2, inspiration 1, souls 1; 24

1) breath, spirit
1a) breath (of God)
1b) breath (of man)
1c) every breathing thing
1d) spirit (of man)

When one dies, their spirit goes back to God who gave it, at which point, one is no longer a living soul.  This is why humanity is not immortal, and must receive the same from God as a gift of salvation.

Eccl 12:5....... because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets: 6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

When the dust returns to the earth, and the spirit back to God who gave it, there is no longer a living soul. If the soul were immortal, then the scriptures would not speak of living, or dying souls. Of course a soul would be living if souls were immortal, and of course they would never be spoken of as dying if they were immortal either. So why do the scriptures apply both to the soul?

Ps 6:2 Have mercy upon me, O LORD; for I am weak: O LORD, heal me; for my bones are vexed. 3 My soul is also sore vexed: but thou, O LORD, how long? 4 Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake. 5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

In the above, David seeks to have himself, that is his soul delivered from death, because in the grave there is no remembrance of God, and he cannot give God thanks from the grave. How is this possible if the soul is immortal? If the soul were alive and in heaven with God surely it would be praising Him. Or if it were in hell, surely it would be cursing Him.

Ps 7:1 O LORD my God, in thee do I put my trust: save me from all them that persecute me, and deliver me: 2 Lest he tear my soul like a lion, rending it in pieces, while there is none to deliver. 3 O LORD my God, if I have done this; if there be iniquity in my hands; 4 If I have rewarded evil unto him that was at peace with me; (yea, I have delivered him that without cause is mine enemy:) 5 Let the enemy persecute my soul, and take it; yea, let him tread down my life upon the earth, and lay mine honour in the dust. Selah.

Again what sense do the above verses make if a soul is not a living person, rather than some floating entity that lives apart from the body? Can a soul be torn to pieces? Will it end when one's life does? Yes it will.

Ps 30:2 O LORD my God, I cried unto thee, and thou hast healed me. 3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.

How can a soul go to the grave? If it is immortal and goes to heaven or hell at death it should not be spoken of as dying and going to the grave. If on the other hand, it is a living being, then it could be said that ones soul goes to the grave when they die, it is its end. When life ends, it ends.

Ps 33:18 Behold, the eye of the LORD is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy; 19 To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine. 20 Our soul waiteth for the LORD: he is our help and our shield. 21 For our heart shall rejoice in him, because we have trusted in his holy name. 22 Let thy mercy, O LORD, be upon us, according as we hope in thee.

If our souls must be delivered from death, then they are not immortal. They are like us, they are us, when we are alive. When we are raised from the dead and given everlasting life, we will again be living souls.

Ps 40:13 Be pleased, O LORD, to deliver me: O LORD, make haste to help me. 14 Let them be ashamed and confounded together that seek after my soul to destroy it; let them be driven backward and put to shame that wish me evil.

Who can destroy a soul if it is immortal? It is not. When life ends, it ends, because when one is alive, they are a living soul.

Ps 49:12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish. 13 This their way is their folly: yet their posterity approve their sayings. Selah. 14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling. 15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.

Again the soul being associated with life, being redeemed from the grave. If it were immortal, this would not be so.

Ps 56:12 Thy vows are upon me, O God: I will render praises unto thee. 13 For thou hast delivered my soul from death: wilt not thou deliver my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living?

Again, when God delivers the soul from death, one can walk in the light of the living. Makes no sense if the soul is immortal.

Ps 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them. 50 He made a way to his anger; he spared not their soul from death, but gave their life over to the pestilence; 51 And smote all the firstborn in Egypt; the chief of their strength in the tabernacles of Ham:

God spared not the Egyptians souls from death, but killed them by the plagues. Their souls died, that is, they died. Obviously their souls were not immortal.

Ps 86:1 Bow down thine ear, O LORD, hear me: for I am poor and needy. 2 Preserve my soul; for I am holy: O thou my God, save thy servant that trusteth in thee. 3 Be merciful unto me, O Lord: for I cry unto thee daily.

Who needs their soul to be preserved if it is immortal?

Ps 89:47 Remember how short my time is: wherefore hast thou made all men in vain? 48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.

Again, why would a soul go to the grave at death if it is immortal and goes to heaven or hell at death? It is because the body goes into the grave at death, it is a dead soul, it is not living, because the body and the breath or spirit from God have separated.

Ps 116:7 Return unto thy rest, O my soul; for the LORD hath dealt bountifully with thee. 8 For thou hast delivered my soul from death, mine eyes from tears, and my feet from falling. 9 I will walk before the LORD in the land of the living.

Because his soul was delivered from death, he will walk before the Lord in the land of the living, he is a living soul.

Ps 119:174 I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight. 175 Let my soul live, and it shall praise thee; and let thy judgments help me. 176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.

Makes no sense if the soul is immortal.

Isa 38:16 O Lord, by these things men live, and in all these things is the life of my spirit: so wilt thou recover me, and make me to live. 17 Behold, for peace I had great bitterness: but thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption: for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back. 18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. 19 The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.

Because he was delivered from death, his soul was delivered from the pit of corruption, that is, the grave. The living, they are the ones who praise God. The dead cannot, because they are not living souls. All such nonsense if the soul is immortal.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

A prophecy concerning Christ. How can a soul be an offering? A sacrifice must die. If the soul is immortal, then it cannot be a sacrifice. Yet Christ poured out His soul unto death for our sins. He died the death we deserved, and when He did, He was no longer a living soul.

Ezek 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Is God a liar? If a soul is immortal it cannot die. God says the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ezek 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. 21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? 24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. 25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? 26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. 27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

Again, the soul is identified with the person. If the person lives, the soul lives. If the person dies, the soul dies. A soul is a living person with a body combined with the breath, or spirit from God.

Matt 10: 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

God will destroy both body and soul in hell. The soul is not immortal.

Matt 16: 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

How can one lose their soul, if their soul is immortal? Where could it go to get away from them.

Acts 2: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Christ was raised before His body saw corruption. Thus His soul was not left in hell, or the grave. He once again walked in the light of the living, that is, He became a living soul. This is our salvation. Our souls will not be left in the prison house of death, but we will once again be raised and receive the breath, or spirit of God in our spiritual bodies, and then we shall ever be with the Lord.

Acts 3: 22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Every soul that will not hear and accept Christ, will be destroyed.

1 Cor 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

No mistake about when it is that we receive immortality. It is at the last trump, when the dead are raised incorruptible, and immortal. None of the above makes sense if the soul is immortal.

Heb 10:38-39 38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

The soul needs saving, it is not immortal.

James 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

The soul needs to be saved from death, it is not immortal.

Rev 16: 3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

According to scripture then, souls can and do die. The souls of humans and animals do die. Souls therefore, are not immortal.

: Amo  Tue Dec 23, 2025 - 20:27:45In this sixth chapter of Mathetes we have the introduction of yet another ancient pagan concept and term. The immortal soul, or immortality of the soul. This term and or concept is found nowhere in holy scripture at all. To the contrary, souls are referred to as dying many times over in the scriptures.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

When God united His breath, or spirit with man, man became a living soul. A living soul is composed of body and spirit.

When one dies, their spirit goes back to God who gave it, at which point, one is no longer a living soul.  This is why humanity is not immortal, and must receive the same from God as a gift of salvation.

Eccl 12:5....... because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets: 6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

When the dust returns to the earth, and the spirit back to God who gave it, there is no longer a living soul. If the soul were immortal, then the scriptures would not speak of living, or dying souls. Of course a soul would be living if souls were immortal, and of course they would never be spoken of as dying if they were immortal either. So why do the scriptures apply both to the soul?

Ps 6:2 Have mercy upon me, O LORD; for I am weak: O LORD, heal me; for my bones are vexed. 3 My soul is also sore vexed: but thou, O LORD, how long? 4 Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake. 5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

In the above, David seeks to have himself, that is his soul delivered from death, because in the grave there is no remembrance of God, and he cannot give God thanks from the grave. How is this possible if the soul is immortal? If the soul were alive and in heaven with God surely it would be praising Him. Or if it were in hell, surely it would be cursing Him.

Ps 7:1 O LORD my God, in thee do I put my trust: save me from all them that persecute me, and deliver me: 2 Lest he tear my soul like a lion, rending it in pieces, while there is none to deliver. 3 O LORD my God, if I have done this; if there be iniquity in my hands; 4 If I have rewarded evil unto him that was at peace with me; (yea, I have delivered him that without cause is mine enemy:) 5 Let the enemy persecute my soul, and take it; yea, let him tread down my life upon the earth, and lay mine honour in the dust. Selah.

Again what sense do the above verses make if a soul is not a living person, rather than some floating entity that lives apart from the body? Can a soul be torn to pieces? Will it end when one's life does? Yes it will.

Ps 30:2 O LORD my God, I cried unto thee, and thou hast healed me. 3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.

How can a soul go to the grave? If it is immortal and goes to heaven or hell at death it should not be spoken of as dying and going to the grave. If on the other hand, it is a living being, then it could be said that ones soul goes to the grave when they die, it is its end. When life ends, it ends.

Ps 33:18 Behold, the eye of the LORD is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy; 19 To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine. 20 Our soul waiteth for the LORD: he is our help and our shield. 21 For our heart shall rejoice in him, because we have trusted in his holy name. 22 Let thy mercy, O LORD, be upon us, according as we hope in thee.

If our souls must be delivered from death, then they are not immortal. They are like us, they are us, when we are alive. When we are raised from the dead and given everlasting life, we will again be living souls.

Ps 40:13 Be pleased, O LORD, to deliver me: O LORD, make haste to help me. 14 Let them be ashamed and confounded together that seek after my soul to destroy it; let them be driven backward and put to shame that wish me evil.

Who can destroy a soul if it is immortal? It is not. When life ends, it ends, because when one is alive, they are a living soul.

Ps 49:12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish. 13 This their way is their folly: yet their posterity approve their sayings. Selah. 14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling. 15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.

Again the soul being associated with life, being redeemed from the grave. If it were immortal, this would not be so.

Ps 56:12 Thy vows are upon me, O God: I will render praises unto thee. 13 For thou hast delivered my soul from death: wilt not thou deliver my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living?

Again, when God delivers the soul from death, one can walk in the light of the living. Makes no sense if the soul is immortal.

Ps 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them. 50 He made a way to his anger; he spared not their soul from death, but gave their life over to the pestilence; 51 And smote all the firstborn in Egypt; the chief of their strength in the tabernacles of Ham:

God spared not the Egyptians souls from death, but killed them by the plagues. Their souls died, that is, they died. Obviously their souls were not immortal.

Ps 86:1 Bow down thine ear, O LORD, hear me: for I am poor and needy. 2 Preserve my soul; for I am holy: O thou my God, save thy servant that trusteth in thee. 3 Be merciful unto me, O Lord: for I cry unto thee daily.

Who needs their soul to be preserved if it is immortal?

Ps 89:47 Remember how short my time is: wherefore hast thou made all men in vain? 48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.

Again, why would a soul go to the grave at death if it is immortal and goes to heaven or hell at death? It is because the body goes into the grave at death, it is a dead soul, it is not living, because the body and the breath or spirit from God have separated.

Ps 116:7 Return unto thy rest, O my soul; for the LORD hath dealt bountifully with thee. 8 For thou hast delivered my soul from death, mine eyes from tears, and my feet from falling. 9 I will walk before the LORD in the land of the living.

Because his soul was delivered from death, he will walk before the Lord in the land of the living, he is a living soul.

Ps 119:174 I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight. 175 Let my soul live, and it shall praise thee; and let thy judgments help me. 176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.

Makes no sense if the soul is immortal.

Isa 38:16 O Lord, by these things men live, and in all these things is the life of my spirit: so wilt thou recover me, and make me to live. 17 Behold, for peace I had great bitterness: but thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption: for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back. 18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. 19 The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.

Because he was delivered from death, his soul was delivered from the pit of corruption, that is, the grave. The living, they are the ones who praise God. The dead cannot, because they are not living souls. All such nonsense if the soul is immortal.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

A prophecy concerning Christ. How can a soul be an offering? A sacrifice must die. If the soul is immortal, then it cannot be a sacrifice. Yet Christ poured out His soul unto death for our sins. He died the death we deserved, and when He did, He was no longer a living soul.

Ezek 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Is God a liar? If a soul is immortal it cannot die. God says the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ezek 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. 21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? 24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. 25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? 26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. 27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

Again, the soul is identified with the person. If the person lives, the soul lives. If the person dies, the soul dies. A soul is a living person with a body combined with the breath, or spirit from God.

Matt 10: 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

God will destroy both body and soul in hell. The soul is not immortal.

Matt 16: 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

How can one lose their soul, if their soul is immortal? Where could it go to get away from them.

Acts 2: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Christ was raised before His body saw corruption. Thus His soul was not left in hell, or the grave. He once again walked in the light of the living, that is, He became a living soul. This is our salvation. Our souls will not be left in the prison house of death, but we will once again be raised and receive the breath, or spirit of God in our spiritual bodies, and then we shall ever be with the Lord.

Acts 3: 22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Every soul that will not hear and accept Christ, will be destroyed.

1 Cor 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

No mistake about when it is that we receive immortality. It is at the last trump, when the dead are raised incorruptible, and immortal. None of the above makes sense if the soul is immortal.

Heb 10:38-39 38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

The soul needs saving, it is not immortal.

James 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

The soul needs to be saved from death, it is not immortal.

Rev 16: 3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

According to scripture then, souls can and do die. The souls of humans and animals do die. Souls therefore, are not immortal.

There is no indication that the soul will be saved.  It is the spirit that remains after death. When Jesus returns, the departed spirits will stand before God, those who have done good will continue to live, those who have done bad will suffer the second death (John 5:29; Rev 21:8). I believe those that suffer the second death will cease to exist.  I think all the weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matt 25:30; etc.) of those who will suffer the second death will occur in that interim period between physical death and the second coming when those who will suffer the second death realize that they could have received the gift of eternal life but rejected it (Luke 13:28). 

Perhaps that is just me, but that is what I believe.

: 4WD  Wed Dec 24, 2025 - 05:20:12There is no indication that the soul will be saved.  It is the spirit that remains after death. When Jesus returns, the departed spirits will stand before God, those who have done good will continue to live, those who have done bad will suffer the second death (John 5:29; Rev 21:8). I believe those that suffer the second death will cease to exist.  I think all the weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matt 25:30; etc.) of those who will suffer the second death will occur in that interim period between physical death and the second coming when those who will suffer the second death realize that they could have received the gift of eternal life but rejected it (Luke 13:28). 

Perhaps that is just me, but that is what I believe.

Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Num 15:27 And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering. 28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him. 29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them. 30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.31 Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.

Psa 34:21 Evil shall slay the wicked: and they that hate the righteous shall be desolate.22 The LORD redeemeth the soul of his servants: and none of them that trust in him shall be desolate.

Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Apart from the above, there are hundreds of bible verses which speak of the soul as the individual themselves. You are of course free to believe whatever you wish.

CHAP. VII.—THE MANIFESTATION OF CHRIST.

For, as I said, this was no mere earthly invention which was delivered to them, nor is it a mere human system of opinion, which they judge it right to preserve so carefully, nor has a dispensation of mere human mysteries been committed to them, but truly God Himself, who is almighty, the Creator of all things, and invisible, has sent from heaven, and placed among men, [Him who is] the truth, and the holy and incomprehensible Word, and has firmly established Him in their hearts. He did not, as one might have imagined, send to men any servant, or angel, or ruler, or any one of those who bear sway over earthly things, or one of those to whom the government of things in the heavens has been entrusted, but the very Creator and Fashioner of all things—by whom He made the heavens—by whom he enclosed the sea within its proper bounds—whose ordinances all the stars faithfully observe—from whom the sun has received the measure of his daily course to be observed—whom the moon obeys, being commanded to shine in the night, and whom the stars also obey, following the moon in her course; by whom all things have been arranged, and placed within their proper limits, and to whom all are subject—the heavens and the things that are therein, the earth and the things that are therein, the sea and the things that are therein—fire, air, and the abyss—the things which are in the heights, the things which are in the depths, and the things which lie between. This [messenger] He sent to them. Was it then, as one might conceive, for the purpose of exercising tyranny, or of inspiring fear and terror? By no means, but under the influence of clemency and meekness. As a king sends his son, who is also a king, so sent He Him; as God He sent Him; as to men He sent Him; as a Saviour He sent Him, and as seeking to persuade, not to compel us; for violence has no place in the character of God. As calling us He sent Him, not as vengefully pursuing us; as loving us He sent Him, not as judging us. For He will yet send Him to judge us, and who shall endure His appearing? ... Do you not see them exposed to wild beasts, that they may be persuaded to deny the Lord, and yet not overcome? Do you not see that the more of them are punished, the greater becomes the number of the rest? This does not seem to be the work of man: this is the power of God; these are the evidences of His manifestation.


Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, eds., "The Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 27–28.

From the above we may ascertain, that imperial mandated "Christianity", was not yet conceived or considered acceptable at the time. If it was, this document thus far, gives the idea no credence. Still maintaining and practicing the teaching and example of our Lord Jesus Christ and His chosen Apostles. Amen.

CHAP. VIII.—THE MISERABLE STATE OF MEN BEFORE THE COMING OF THE WORD.

For, who of men at all understood before His coming what God is? Do you accept of the vain and silly doctrines of those who are deemed trustworthy philosophers? of whom some said that fire was God, calling that God to which they themselves were by and by to come; and some water; and others some other of the elements formed by God. But if any one of these theories be worthy of approbation, every one of the rest of created things might also be declared to be God. But such declarations are simply the startling and erroneous utterances of deceivers; and no man has either seen Him, or made Him known, but He has revealed Himself. And He has manifested Himself through faith, to which alone it is given to behold God. For God, the Lord and Fashioner of all things, who made all things, and assigned them their several positions, proved Himself not merely a friend of mankind, but also long-suffering [in His dealings with them.] Yea, He was always of such a character, and still is, and will ever be, kind and good, and free from wrath, and true, and the only one who is [absolutely] good; and He formed in His mind a great and unspeakable conception, which He communicated to His Son alone. As long, then, as He held and preserved His own wise counsel in concealment, He appeared to neglect us, and to have no care over us. But after He revealed and laid open, through His beloved Son, the things which had been prepared from the beginning, He conferred every blessing all at once upon us, so that we should both share in His benefits, and see and be active [in His service]. Who of us would ever have expected these things? He was aware, then, of all things in His own mind, along with His Son, according to the relation subsisting between them.


Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, eds., "The Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 28.

What can be said about the above testimony? It completely bypasses the entire recorded history of the Old Testament. Which was exactly about revealing and maintaining a knowledge of God in this world, and His great mercy towards His chosen people and all of humanity thereby as well. While also maintaining the high divine standards of morality and justice. Once again, not only missing an excellent opportunity to reveal the most ancient nature and continuation of God's mercy and everlasting covenant with all of willing humanity throughout our history, but seeming to suggest there was no such thing.

Perhaps the writer thought to express sentiments related by the Apostle Paul in the following -

1Co 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Eph 3:9  And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

None of these statements by Paul though, were in neglect and or denial of the history of divine revelation between God and humanity. Or certainly, that of divine revelation to His chosen people Israel via Moses and all the prophets. Which thus far, this writer has either ignored or relinquished to the realms of superstition or folly, while supposedly expounding upon authentic Christianity. Which is the New Covenant era of the everlasting covenant and gospel, established in the Garden of Eden immediately after the fall of humanity for our salvation. Continuing from that time forward to the present by way of special revelation from God, through His chosen people concerning the entire history of this world to its end. The only original, true, and authentically God revealed religion of this world.

Perhaps the author will address this most important point later.

: Amo  Wed Dec 24, 2025 - 10:37:20Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Num 15:27 And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering. 28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him. 29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them. 30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.31 Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.

Psa 34:21 Evil shall slay the wicked: and they that hate the righteous shall be desolate.22 The LORD redeemeth the soul of his servants: and none of them that trust in him shall be desolate.

Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Apart from the above, there are hundreds of bible verses which speak of the soul as the individual themselves. You are of course free to believe whatever you wish.

In both the OT and the NT when speaking about human beings, the words "soul" and "spirit" are very often used interchangeably even though they are not strictly the same.  And there is no indication in either the OT nor the NT that the body of flesh and blood will be saved.  Only the spirit of a man continues on after physical death.

: Amo  Sun Dec 21, 2025 - 13:51:35I had started this topic on the last boards I was posting in. Before they locked it and others down, and removed me from membership. I think it is worthy of time and consideration, and so will restart it here with continuing posts upon the subject. Please do contribute as you wish.

The above quote is one of the reasons I consider the writings of the "Church Fathers" to be inferior to holy scripture. This early on, Clement is already introducing pagan mythology into the mix, to be considered regarding the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ and his faithful followers.

Phoenix | Egyptian, Greek & Roman | Britannica

Quoted article below from link above.

So, here we have in the writings of Clement, the introduction of pagan sun worshiping mythology. A trend that would only increase over time unto the formation of the first mandated form of "Christianity" for the Roman Empire. One heavily influenced and established by professed converted sun worshipping Emperors, and a mass of pagan sun worshippers brought into the "Church" via imperial mandate over and above gospel believing conviction and conversion.

Why would anyone consider the writings of the "church fathers" to be scriptural?  They are no better nor worse that the writings in today's commentaries. Some are good, some are not good.

: 4WD  Fri Dec 26, 2025 - 05:07:53In both the OT and the NT when speaking about human beings, the words "soul" and "spirit" are very often used interchangeably even though they are not strictly the same.  And there is no indication in either the OT nor the NT that the body of flesh and blood will be saved.  Only the spirit of a man continues on after physical death.

Now we know what 4WD believes and says. Please use and demonstrate your above thoughts from Holy Scripture. As we are examining the writings of the "Fathers" in relation to them, let us also establish our own views by them. Thank you.

If you are going to say that spirit and soul are the same, then one must logically conclude that spirits die, just like scripture plainly and repetitively teaches and states regarding the soul. So body, spirit, and soul can and do die. Nevertheless, when one dies, the spirit returns to God who gave it unto a living soul.

Ecc 12:1 Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them; 2 While the sun, or the light, or the moon, or the stars, be not darkened, nor the clouds return after the rain: 3 In the day when the keepers of the house shall tremble, and the strong men shall bow themselves, and the grinders cease because they are few, and those that look out of the windows be darkened, 4 And the doors shall be shut in the streets, when the sound of the grinding is low, and he shall rise up at the voice of the bird, and all the daughters of musick shall be brought low; 5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets: 6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Psa 146:1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise the LORD, O my soul. 2 While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being. 3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. 4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Psa 6:4 Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake. 5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. 7 Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works. 8 Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment. 9 Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun. 10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Obviously, all of the above cannot be true, if spirits departing from living souls are conscious, thinking, reasoning, and feeling entities.

: 4WD  Fri Dec 26, 2025 - 05:14:58Why would anyone consider the writings of the "church fathers" to be scriptural?  They are no better nor worse that the writings in today's commentaries. Some are good, some are not good.

As no doubt, most of them claimed to believe scripture, I am examining whether their writings are actually based upon scriptural teaching or not. Pointing of course, to the greater and more trustworthy testimony of Holy Scripture over and above their writings. Rightly judging their writings by Holy Scripture, and not the other way around.

I was not and am not actually asking anyone if they think their writings were scriptural or not, simply examining the issue and giving my conclusion regarding such. While inviting others to give their views as well, or even contest my conclusions for discussion and or debate.

CHAP. IX.—WHY THE SON WAS SENT SO LATE.

As long then as the former time endured, He permitted us to be borne along by unruly impulses, being drawn away by the desire of pleasure and various lusts. This was not that He at all delighted in our sins, but that He simply endured them; nor that He approved the time of working iniquity which then was, but that He sought to form a mind conscious of righteousness, so that being convinced in that time of our unworthiness of attaining life through our own works, it should now, through the kindness of God, be vouchsafed to us; and having made it manifest that in ourselves we were unable to enter into the kingdom of God, we might through the power of God be made able. But when our wickedness had reached its height, and it had been clearly shown that its reward, punishment and death, was impending over us; and when the time had come which God had before appointed for manifesting His own kindness and power, how the one love of God, through exceeding regard for men, did not regard us with hatred, nor thrust us away, nor remember our iniquity against us, but showed great long-suffering, and bore with us, He Himself took on Him the burden of our iniquities, He gave His own Son as a ransom for us, the holy One for transgressors, the blameless One for the wicked, the righteous One for the unrighteous, the incorruptible One for the corruptible, the immortal One for them that are mortal. For what other thing was capable of covering our sins than His righteousness? By what other one was it possible that we, the wicked and ungodly, could be justified, than by the only Son of God? O sweet exchange! O unsearchable operation! O benefits surpassing all expectation! that the wickedness of many should be hid in a single righteous One, and that the righteousness of One should justify many transgressors! Having therefore convinced us in the former time that our nature was unable to attain to life, and having now revealed the Saviour who is able to save even those things which it was [formerly] impossible to save, by both these facts He desired to lead us to trust in His kindness, to esteem Him our Nourisher, Father, Teacher, Counsellor, Healer, our Wisdom, Light, Honour, Glory, Power, and Life, so that we should not be anxious concerning clothing and food.


Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, eds., "The Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 28.

While the above chapter does address or reference teachings apparently, from former times which convinced us "that our nature was unable to attain to life", it leaves Old covenant and or testament teaching out of the picture. Therefore also of course, the history of Israel and or reference to the Jews. Further evidence that this claimed church father, is intent upon the task of distancing himself and or the church from the Jews, in his epistle under examination. Though we have a few more chapters from which he might change this seemingly apparent motive up to this point.

Apart from this, I would address only the term applied by the writer concerning the covering of our sins by Christ's righteousness. The everlasting gospel of Jesus Christ established in the testimonies of both the Old and New testament scriptures, are not about our sins being covered by the Savior, but rather thoroughly cleansed and washed away. As in they are no more. This by our Lord and Savior among the believing, and willingly submissive followers of His way of the cross.

Zec 3:1  And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. 2  And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? 3  Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel. 4  And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment. 5  And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by. 6  And the angel of the LORD protested unto Joshua, saying, 7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by. 8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH. 9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

Ezk 36:22  Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. 23  And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. 24  For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25  Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26  A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27  And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28  And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Psa 51:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba. Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. 2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. 3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. 4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. 5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. 6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. 7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. 8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. 9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. 13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee. 14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness. 15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.

1Co 6:9  Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10  Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11  And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Rev 1:4  John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5  And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

CHAP. X.—THE BLESSINGS THAT WILL FLOW FROM FAITH.

If you also desire [to possess] this faith, you likewise shall receive first of all the knowledge of the Father. For God has loved mankind, on whose account He made the world, to whom He rendered subject all the things that are in it, to whom He gave reason and understanding, to whom alone He imparted the privilege of looking upwards to Himself, whom He formed after His own image, to whom He sent His only-begotten Son, to whom He has promised a kingdom in heaven, and will give it to those who have loved Him. And when you have attained this knowledge, with what joy do you think you will be filled? Or, how will you love Him who has first so loved you? And if you love Him, you will be an imitator of His kindness. And do not wonder that a man may become an imitator of God. He can, if he is willing. For it is not by ruling over his neighbours, or by seeking to hold the supremacy over those that are weaker, or by being rich, and showing violence towards those that are inferior, that happiness is found; nor can any one by these things become an imitator of God. But these things do not at all constitute His majesty. On the contrary he who takes upon himself the burden of his neighbour; he who, in whatsoever respect he may be superior, is ready to benefit another who is deficient; he who, whatsoever things he has received from God, by distributing these to the needy, becomes a god to those who receive [his benefits]: he is an imitator of God. Then thou shalt see, while still on earth, that God in the heavens rules over [the universe]; then thou shall begin to speak the mysteries of God; then shalt thou both love and admire those that suffer punishment because they will not deny God; then shall thou condemn the deceit and error of the world when thou shall know what it is to live truly in heaven, when thou shalt despise that which is here esteemed to be death, when thou shalt fear what is truly death, which is reserved for those who shall be condemned to the eternal fire, which shall afflict those even to the end that are committed to it. Then shalt thou admire those who for righteousness' sake endure the fire that is but for a moment, and shalt count them happy when thou shalt know [the nature of] that fire.

Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, eds., "The Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 29.

Mathetes once again refers to a knowledge to be gained regarding several things taught and revealed in the Old Testament, without mentioning it or the people God used to preserve its place in this world, of course. To be fair though, he does not make much use or reference to either Old or New Testament holy scripture.

Interestingly, he refers to eternal fire, in connection with the end of those committed to it. As though, even though earlier he referred to the soul as immortal, he is not necessarily convinced of or adheres to any doctrine concerning eternal punishment in hell. Not that any actual doctrine concerning the subject can be deduced to have been believed or taught by him, according to this one somewhat vague statement. A more direct statement or address would be necessary to establish such.

CHAP. XI.—THESE THINGS ARE WORTHY TO BE KNOWN AND BELIEVED.

I do not speak of things strange to me, nor do I aim at anything inconsistent with right reason; but having been a disciple of the Apostles, I am become a teacher of the Gentiles. I minister the things delivered to me to those that are disciples worthy of the truth. For who that is rightly taught and begotten by the loving Word, would not seek to learn accurately the things which have been clearly shown by the Word to His disciples, to whom the Word being manifested has revealed them, speaking plainly [to them], not understood indeed by the unbelieving, but conversing with the disciples, who, being esteemed faithful by Him, acquired a knowledge of the mysteries of the Father? For which reason He sent the Word, that He might be manifested to the world; and He, being despised by the people [of the Jews], was, when preached by the Apostles, believed on by the Gentiles. This is He who was from the beginning, who appeared as if new, and was found old, and yet who is ever born afresh in the hearts of the saints. This is He who, being from everlasting, is to-day called the Son; through whom the Church is enriched, and grace, widely spread, increases in the saints, furnishing understanding, revealing mysteries, announcing times, rejoicing over the faithful, giving to those that seek, by whom the limits of faith are not broken through, nor the boundaries set by the fathers passed over. Then the fear of the law is chanted, and the grace of the prophets is known, and the faith of the gospels is established, and the tradition of the Apostles is preserved, and the grace of the Church exults; which grace if you grieve not, you shall know those things which the Word teaches, by whom He wills, and when He pleases. For whatever things we are moved to utter by the will of the Word commanding us, we communicate to you with pains, and from a love of the things that have been revealed to us.

Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, eds., "The Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 29.

Once again, while making honorable mention of the Father, the Word, His disciples, Apostles, prophets, gospels, teachings, tradition, the law, and grace, Mathetes quotes no scripture or even suggests an examination of them in order to understand what Christians of his day believe and or practice. No reference to the Old Testament of course, as he relinquished much of them to the rank of superstition and or folly, and no quotes from and or advice to examine any of the writings of the Apostles which should have been prevalent at the time. Perhaps as a declared teacher of the gentiles, he didn't want to encourage the study of the actual words of the Jews who wrote the Old testament, or the vast majority of the New Testament as well. Setting a precedence perhaps, of church tradition equal to and or above scripture itself in the near future. As traditional and ever more political "Christianity" arose to a place of more prominence in and of this world, than authentic scripturally based and evangelical Christianity. Which was ever non political, and a more conviction based and personally chosen faith.

Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. 5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; 6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. 7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Mrk 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. 7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. 10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: 11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. 12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; 13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Col 2:6  As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

CHAP. XII.—THE IMPORTANCE OF KNOWLEDGE TO TRUE SPIRITUAL LIFE.

When you have read and carefully listened to these things, you shall know what God bestows on such as rightly love Him, being made [as ye are] a paradise of delight, presenting in yourselves a tree bearing all kinds of produce and flourishing well, being adorned with various fruits. For in this place the tree of knowledge and the tree of life have been planted; but it is not the tree of knowledge that destroys—it is disobedience that proves destructive. Nor truly are those words without significance which are written, how God from the beginning planted the tree of life in the midst of paradise, revealing through knowledge the way to life, and when those who were first formed did not use this [knowledge] properly, they were, through the fraud of the Serpent, stripped naked. For neither can life exist without knowledge, nor is knowledge secure without life. Wherefore both were planted close together. The Apostle, perceiving the force [of this conjunction], and blaming that knowledge which, without true doctrine, is admitted to influence life, declares, "Knowledge puffeth up, but love edifieth." For he who thinks he knows anything without true knowledge, and such as is witnessed to by life, knows nothing, but is deceived by the Serpent, as not loving life. But he who combines knowledge with fear, and seeks after life, plants in hope, looking for fruit. Let your heart be your wisdom; and let your life be true knowledge inwardly received. Bearing this tree and displaying its fruit, thou shalt always gather in those things which are desired by God, which the Serpent cannot reach, and to which deception does not approach; nor is Eve then corrupted, but is trusted as a virgin; and salvation is manifested, and the Apostles are filled with understanding, and the Passover of the Lord advances, and the choirs are gathered together, and are arranged in proper order, and the Word rejoices in teaching the saints,—by whom the Father is glorified: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, eds., "The Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 29–30.

This last chapter seems to be as vague and or generic, as the others which preceded it. Though we finally have one short sentence of scripture quoted, it is surrounded by what I can only describe as gobbledygook, concerning apparently the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Though the evil part is left out by the author. Which the author relates as though someone unfamiliar with holy scripture and the account of the fall of humanity in Genesis, would have any idea of what they were talking about.

The main problem with this Epistle as I see it, is it's complete lack of scriptural reference or authority. While it begins as an address to explain Christianity to one who is apparently ignorant of the same, it is void of reference to holy scripture, and or the prominent place and authority of them which is paramount to the Christian faith. As already stated, relinquishing much of the Old Testament scriptures to the ranks of superstition and folly, it never seems to attempt to establish the writings of the Apostles as authoritative either. Leaning apparently upon the authors own authority or knowledge regarding them, to be considered as such by the reader as well.

It almost seems as though it was written to one who was already very familiar with holy scripture, and therefore needed no reference to it, in order to understand where the author came up with the truths he was promulgating. Which seems to be at odds with the opening statement of the Epistle itself, to the effect that it was addressing one who did not know the "mode of worshipping God prevalent among the Christians, and inquiring very carefully and earnestly concerning them, what God they trust in, and what form of religion they observe". In any case, the Epistle does not as I see it, properly seek to establish the significance and authority of holy scripture to or within authentic Christian faith.

Nor as already stated, does it address at all the significance of the fairly new establishment of a Sunday sacredness, which many claim was prevalent among the early Christians. While it did address sabbaths of the Jews which the author considered superstitious in nature, and the seventh day Sabbath of the Lord. This ends my examination of Mathetes. I will move on to EPISTLE OF POLYCARP TO THE PHILIPPIANS next.

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

: Amo  Sun Dec 21, 2025 - 13:51:35I had started this topic on the last boards I was posting in. Before they locked it and others down, and removed me from membership. I think it is worthy of time and consideration, and so will restart it here with continuing posts upon the subject. Please do contribute as you wish.

The above quote is one of the reasons I consider the writings of the "Church Fathers" to be inferior to holy scripture. This early on, Clement is already introducing pagan mythology into the mix, to be considered regarding the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ and his faithful followers.

Phoenix | Egyptian, Greek & Roman | Britannica

Quoted article below from link above.

So, here we have in the writings of Clement, the introduction of pagan sun worshiping mythology. A trend that would only increase over time unto the formation of the first mandated form of "Christianity" for the Roman Empire. One heavily influenced and established by professed converted sun worshipping Emperors, and a mass of pagan sun worshippers brought into the "Church" via imperial mandate over and above gospel believing conviction and conversion.

I find the highlighted portion somewhat puzzling since you spend a lot of time trying to defend the writings of Ellen G. White.  Would she not be placed in a category such as the one you are referring to?  Not nearly as early, but still in the same category?

: Cobalt1959  Wed Jan 07, 2026 - 23:36:31I find the highlighted portion somewhat puzzling since you spend a lot of time trying to defend the writings of Ellen G. White.  Would she not be placed in a category such as the one you are referring to?  Not nearly as early, but still in the same category?

First and foremost of course, she is not nor has ever been considered a Church Father. Secondly, I only defend her positions, when others question and or attack them. Even when responding to such, support of the Holy Scriptures themselves or not, is what I examine in relation to them. Just as I am examining on this thread in relation to the suggested Church Fathers. Therefore also yes, the writings of EGW and all else should be judged by the testimonies of Holy Scriptures, as authentic divinely inspired truth, or not. Please do judge her writings and all others by the highest standards of Holy Scripture. As she herself admonished all to do as well, many times over.

Emphasis in the following quotes is mine.

Christian Education (1893, 1894), page 120, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: The Value of Bible Study.

We should not allow any argument of man's to turn us away from a thorough investigation of Bible truth. The opinions and customs of men are not to be received as of divine authority. God has revealed in his word what is the whole duty of man, and we are not to be swayed from the great standard of righteousness. He sent his only begotten Son to be our example, and bade us to hear and to follow him. We must not be influenced from the truth as it is in Jesus, because great and professedly good men urge their ideas above the plain statements of the word of God.

Education (1903), page 17, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: Source and Aim of True Education

The Holy Scriptures are the perfect standard of truth, and as such should be given the highest place in education. To obtain an education worthy of the name, we must receive a knowledge of God, the Creator, and of Christ, the Redeemer, as they are revealed in the sacred word.

The Faith I Live By (1958), page 13, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: The Word and Works of God

In His Word, God has committed to men the knowledge necessary for salvation. The Holy Scriptures are to be accepted as an authoritative, infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the revealer of doctrines, and the test of experience.

Gospel Workers (1915), page 250, paragraph 4
Chapter Title: Helps in Gospel Work

The word of God is the standard of character. In giving us this word, God has put us in possession of every truth essential to salvation. Thousands have drawn water from these wells of life, yet there is no diminishing of the supply. Thousands have set the Lord before them, and by beholding have become changed into the same image. But these searchers have not exhausted these grand and holy themes. Thousands more may engage in the work of searching out the mysteries of salvation.

In Heavenly Places (1967), page 133, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: The Great Standard of Right and Wrong

In the Word of God is contained everything essential to the perfecting of the man of God. It is like a treasure house, full of valuable and precious stores, but we do not appreciate its riches nor realize the necessity of equipping ourselves with the treasures of truth. We do not realize the great necessity of searching the Scriptures for ourselves. Many neglect the study of the Word of God in order to pursue some worldly interest or to indulge in some trifling pleasure. . . . Oh, we might better put off anything of an earthly character than the investigation of the Word of God, which is able to make us wise unto life eternal. "Given by inspiration of God," . . . the Book of books has the highest claims to our reverent attention. . . .

Mind, Character, and Personality Volume 1 (1977), page 323, paragraph 5
Chapter Title: Conscience

Take your conscience to the Word of God and see if your life and character are in accordance with the standard of righteousness which God has there revealed. You can then determine whether or not you have an intelligent faith and what manner of conscience is yours. The conscience of man cannot be trusted unless it is under the influence of divine grace. Satan takes advantage of an unenlightened conscience, and thereby leads men into all manner of delusions, because they have not made the Word of God their counselor. Many have invented a gospel of their own in the same manner as they have substituted a law of their own for God's law.--RH, Sept 3, 1901.

Mind, Character, and Personality Volume 2 (1977), page 699, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: Pseudoscience[SEE CHAPTER 3, "DANGERS IN PSYCHOLOGY."]

That Which Contradicts God's Word Is Guesswork. --He who has a knowledge of God and His word has a settled faith in the divinity of the Holy Scriptures. He does not test the Bible by man's ideas of science. He brings these ideas to the test of the unerring standard. He knows that God's word is truth, and truth can never contradict itself; whatever in the teaching of so-called science contradicts the truth of God's revelation is mere human guesswork.--8T 325 (1904).

The Review and Herald, June 11, 1908, paragraph 2
Article Title: What the Word of God Is to UsMrs. E. G. White

The Bible is the great standard of right and wrong, clearly defining sin and holiness. Its living principles, running through our lives like threads of gold, are our only safeguard in trial and temptation.

As is almost always the case, I have not brought up the subject of EGW. Nor do I appeal to her writings as authoritative for those I know do not believe some or many of her views. If our views align with the teachings of Holy Scripture, they are correct. If they do not, they are not. Easy peasy.

: Amo  Wed Dec 24, 2025 - 10:37:20Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Num 15:27 And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering. 28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him. 29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them. 30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.31 Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.

Psa 34:21 Evil shall slay the wicked: and they that hate the righteous shall be desolate.22 The LORD redeemeth the soul of his servants: and none of them that trust in him shall be desolate.

Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Apart from the above, there are hundreds of bible verses which speak of the soul as the individual themselves. You are of course free to believe whatever you wish.

There's several meanings for "soul" in the Bible.

In ALL of these verses, the one that makes most sense is simply "people" or "a person."

The special meaning of the word, referring to a specific part of us, isn't in view here.  It's really only Paul who uses the word that way.

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Fri Jan 09, 2026 - 12:00:29There's several meanings for "soul" in the Bible.

In ALL of these verses, the one that makes most sense is simply "people" or "a person."

The special meaning of the word, referring to a specific part of us, isn't in view here.  It's really only Paul who uses the word that way.

Is that special meaning defined in scripture, or is it extra biblical?

All emphasis in the following quoted Epistle, and those addressed in later posts examining the same, is mine.

THE EPISTLE OF POLYCARP TO THE PHILIPPIANS

POLYCARP, and the presbyters with him, to the Church of God sojourning at Philippi: Mercy to you, and peace from God Almighty, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, our Saviour, be multiplied.

CHAP. I.—PRAISE OF THE PHILIPPIANS.

I have greatly rejoiced with you in our Lord Jesus Christ, because ye have followed the example of true love [as displayed by God], and have accompanied, as became you, those who were bound in chains, the fitting ornaments of saints, and which are indeed the diadems of the true elect of God and our Lord; and because the strong root of your faith, spoken of in days long gone by, endureth even until now, and bringeth forth fruit to our Lord Jesus Christ, who for our sins suffered even unto death, [but] "whom God raised from the dead, having loosed the bands of the grave." "In whom, though now ye see Him not, ye believe, and believing, rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory;" into which joy many desire to enter, knowing that "by grace ye are saved, not of works," but by the will of God through Jesus Christ.

CHAP. II.—AN EXHORTATION TO VIRTUE.

"Wherefore, girding up your loins," "serve the Lord in fear" and truth, as those who have forsaken the vain, empty talk and error of the multitude, and "believed in Him who raised up our Lord Jesus Christ from the dead, and gave Him glory," and a throne at His right hand. To Him all things in heaven and on earth are subject. Him every spirit serves. He comes as the Judge of the living and the dead. His blood will God require of those who do not believe in Him. But He who raised Him up from the dead will raise up us also, if we do His will, and walk in His commandments, and love what He loved, keeping ourselves from all unrighteousness, covetousness, love of money, evil speaking, falsewitness; "not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing," or blow for blow, or cursing for cursing, but being mindful of what the Lord said in His teaching: "Judge not, that ye be not judged; forgive, and it shall be forgiven unto you; be merciful, that ye may obtain mercy; with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again; and once more, "Blessed are the poor, and those that are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of God."

CHAP. III.—EXPRESSIONS OF PERSONAL UNWORTHINESS.


These things, brethren, I write to you concerning righteousness, not because I take anything upon myself, but because ye have invited me to do so. For neither I, nor any other such one, can come up to the wisdom of the blessed and glorified Paul. He, when among you, accurately and stedfastly taught the word of truth in the presence of those who were then alive. And when absent from you, he wrote you a letter, which, if you carefully study, you will find to be the means of building you up in that faith which has been given you, and which, being followed by hope, and preceded by love towards God, and Christ, and our neighbour, "is the mother of us all." For if any one be inwardly possessed of these graces, he hath fulfilled the command of righteousness, since he that hath love is far from all sin.

CHAP. IV.—VARIOUS EXHORTATIONS.

"But the love of money is the root of all evils." Knowing, therefore, that "as we brought nothing into the world, so we can carry nothing out,"2 let us arm ourselves with the armour of righteousness; and let us teach, first of all, ourselves to walk in the commandments of the Lord. Next, [teach] your wives [to walk] in the faith given to them, and in love and purity tenderly loving their own husbands in all truth, and loving all [others] equally in all chastity; and to train up their children in the knowledge and fear of God. Teach the widows to be discreet as respects the faith of the Lord, praying continually for all, being far from all slandering, evil-speaking, false-witnessing, love of money, and every kind of evil; knowing that they are the altar of God, that He clearly perceives all things, and that nothing is hid from Him, neither reasonings, nor reflections, nor any one of the secret things of the heart.

Polycarp of Smryna, "The Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 33–34.

This Epistle immediately differentiates itself from that of Mathetes, as most of that which is written is either a direct quote of scripture, or reference to them. This man is very familiar with the scriptures, or at the very least, the writings of Paul.

As a point of interest, chapter three brings a new or different concept to our attention, apart from scriptural testimony, that I know of in any case. In referring to the faith of Paul or the New covenant I gather, to the mother of us all. According to New Testament scripture, our faith is in the Father through His Son Jesus Christ. Our profession of faith in the Father was exemplified in the faith of His Son, whose example we are admonished to follow. Which faith was and or is not of course, the mother of us all. The church of Christ symbolically represented as a women, is that of a chaste virgin, not a mother. Though the term mother church certainly developed over time, referring to being the original I suppose, it does not appear to be established by scripture.

While Gal 4:26 does refer to the Jerusalem above as the mother of us all, in relation to the child of promise and faith in that promise of course, this faith is not in regards to a Jerusalem of this earth. It is in regards to the Jerusalem above, by faith according to the promise of the believers final abode in that very Jerusalem.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

While the Old Testament speaks of the daughter or daughters of Jerusalem, the New Testament does not expound greatly upon this point, save one daughter in particular.

2Co 11:1 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. 2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Who are the spiritually chaste virgins of holy scripture, but those who remained true to the authentic faith and teachings of holy scripture, the word of God. Which is why no guile was found within their mouths, they remained faithful to the truth, following the Lamb wherever He goes according to that which He teaches. This of course, as verily the WORD OF GOD.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

So the true church of the faithful are the chaste virgin of Christ, to be united with the promised new Jerusalem, of which our Lord Jesus is the King forever more. The bride of Christ inhabited by the true and faithful servants of God, which shall never be corrupted as the Jerusalem of this world so often was. As the Old Testament predicted.

Zep 3:13 The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid. 14 Sing, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel; be glad and rejoice with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem. 15 The LORD hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the LORD, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more.

Zec 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. 10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river evento the ends of the earth.

Mic 4:6 In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted; 7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever. 8 And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.

Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Fri Jan 09, 2026 - 12:00:29There's several meanings for "soul" in the Bible.

In ALL of these verses, the one that makes most sense is simply "people" or "a person."

The special meaning of the word, referring to a specific part of us, isn't in view here.  It's really only Paul who uses the word that way.

In both the OT and the NT, when the human being, as opposed to animals generally, is being spoken of the words for soul and for spirit are used all most always interchangeably.

: Cobalt1959  Wed Jan 07, 2026 - 23:36:31I find the highlighted portion somewhat puzzling since you spend a lot of time trying to defend the writings of Ellen G. White.  Would she not be placed in a category such as the one you are referring to?  Not nearly as early, but still in the same category?

Obviously!!

: 4WD  Sat Jan 10, 2026 - 02:52:53In both the OT and the NT, when the human being, as opposed to animals generally, is being spoken of the words for soul and for spirit are used all most always interchangeably.

Interesting. Some examples from scripture would be appropriate I think. Since the body was formed first at creation, then the breath and or spirit of God was put into the body resulting in a living soul, it should be no surprise that a soul could or should end up being associated with either the body or spirit of men. Nevertheless, when the body and spirit are separated, it appears that a living soul ceases to exist. Entering a state of being the Holy scriptures refer to a sleeping.

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The three being tied together again in the above scripture, tied directly to the preservation of our lives as blameless in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

And again in the above, to the effect that the word of God can even divide the soul, spirit, and body. In reference to the judgement of our thoughts and the intentions of our hearts. As in death these three are divided, when the spirit goes back to God who gave it, and the body goes back to the dust it was formed from, and the soul is therefore no more. The result of the judgment of God for our first parents disobedience in the Garden, and the biblically predicted end of the wicked in the lake of fire. Where the unsaved die the second and final death, of which the saved have no part.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

There is a book of life in which the names of the saved are written, and a second death for a reason. Those whose names have been removed from the book of life, will not have life or existence of any kind.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. 8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. 20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. 21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

CHAP. V.—THE DUTIES OF DEACONS, YOUTHS, AND VIRGINS.

Knowing, then, that "God is not mocked," we ought to walk worthy of His commandment and glory. In like manner should the deacons be blameless before the face of His righteousness, as being the servants of God and Christ, and not of men. They must not be slanderers, double-tongued, or lovers of money, but temperate in all things, compassionate, industrious, walking according to the truth of the Lord, who was the servant of all. If we please Him in this present world, we shall receive also the future world, according as He has promised to us that He will raise us again from the dead, and that if we live worthily of Him, "we shall also reign together with Him," provided only we believe. In like manner, let the young men also be blameless in all things, being especially careful to preserve purity, and keeping themselves in, as with a bridle, from every kind of evil. For it is well that they should be cut off from the lusts that are in the world, since "every lust warreth against the spirit;" and "neither fornicators, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, shall inherit the kingdom of God," nor those who do things inconsistent and unbecoming. Wherefore, it is needful to abstain from all these things, being subject to the presbyters and deacons, as unto God and Christ. The virgins also must walk in a blameless and pure conscience.

Polycarp of Smryna, "The Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 34.

The highlighted section of the above quote is another addition of a new nature, to any instruction given or found in holy scripture.  Not even the Apostles themselves taught or declared that any should be subject to themselves, as unto God or Christ. Other "Church Fathers" later built up and expounded upon this erroneous declaration. Bishops and deacons were given special instruction for their own behavior as examples to the flock, but were never raised to the authority of God or Christ by the apostles. Paul declared that it was the man of sin, that would place himself in the temple or church of God, as though he were God. He also warned of those who would enter the church seeking followers after their own selves, misleading the flock. Such who would themselves of course make such claims, that they might lead people astray after them. Using their title and office in the church, to usurp the authority of God for themselves.

This short statement and addition to holy scripture, had disastrous results in the future. As many followed the lead of impostures over an above the clear testimony of holy scripture, unto the establishment of apostate forms of Christianity which exalted one sinful fallen human being over and above all others.

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

CHAP. VI.—THE DUTIES OF PRESBYTERS AND OTHERS.

And let the presbyters be compassionate and merciful to all, bringing back those that wander, visiting all the sick, and not neglecting the widow, the orphan, or the poor, but always "providing for that which is becoming in the sight of God and man;" abstaining from all wrath, respect of persons, and unjust judgment; keeping far off from all covetousness, not quickly crediting [an evil report] against any one, not severe in judgment, as knowing that we are all under a debt of sin. If then we entreat the Lord to forgive us, we ought also ourselves to forgive; for we are before the eyes of our Lord and God, and "we must all appear at the judgment-seat of Christ, and must every one give an account of himself." Let us then serve Him in fear, and with all reverence, even as He Himself has commanded us, and as the apostles who preached the Gospel unto us, and the prophets who proclaimed beforehand the coming of the Lord [have alike taught us]. Let us be zealous in the pursuit of that which is good, keeping ourselves from causes of offence, from false brethren, and from those who in hypocrisy bear the name of the Lord, and draw away vain men into error.

Polycarp of Smryna, "The Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 34.

Good scriptural advice. Which if followed, would have prevented the wolves and such as were seeking followers after themselves, from teaching perverse things and leading people away with them. Nevertheless, the extra biblical teaching in the previous chapter, did eventually lead to the same as our Lord and Paul predicted.

CHAP. IX.—PATIENCE INCULCATED.

I exhort you all, therefore, to yield obedience to the word of righteousness, and to exercise all patience, such as ye have seen [set] before your eyes, not only in the case of the blessed Ignatius, and Zosimus, and Rufus, but also in others among yourselves, and in Paul himself, and the rest of the apostles. [This do] in the assurance that all these have not run in vain, but in faith and righteousness, and that they are [now] in their due place in the presence of the Lord, with whom also they suffered. For they loved not this present world, but Him who died for us, and for our sakes was raised again by God from the dead.

Polycarp of Smryna, "The Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 35.

Having already addressed the state of the dead in regard to Holy Scripture verses this epistle, and Apostolic or Scriptural authority over and above all others, I will not repeat these examinations in relation to the above.

: Amo  Fri Jan 09, 2026 - 18:51:25Is that special meaning defined in scripture, or is it extra biblical?

Scripture expects us to already know the meaning of the word nepesh (soul).  I can't think of a spot where it tries to define it for us.  However, the meaning is easily deduced if we look at its usage throughout the OT, which is extensive.

Should one want to look outside the Bible, there is a large body of work by the Greek philosophers dedicated to the study.  Paul is clearly aware of this and draws on it.  The Old Testament authors precede it, and do not use it in this way.

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Mon Jan 26, 2026 - 21:13:15Scripture expects us to already know the meaning of the word nepesh (soul).  I can't think of a spot where it tries to define it for us.  However, the meaning is easily deduced if we look at its usage throughout the OT, which is extensive.

Should one want to look outside the Bible, there is a large body of work by the Greek philosophers dedicated to the study.  Paul is clearly aware of this and draws on it.  The Old Testament authors precede it, and do not use it in this way.

Not exactly a definition, more like the formula or ingredients.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Material body + breath or spirit from God = living soul. When one dies the body goes back to the dust, the spirit back to God, and the living soul dies.

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Isa 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. 20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The Lord did not lie, when He told us what the penalty for eating from the forbidden tree was.

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Having finished reading THE EPISTLE OF POLYCARP TO THE PHILIPPIANS and seeing no issues, I will now move on to THE ENCYCLICAL EPISTLE OF THE CHURCH AT SMYRNA, CONCERNING THE MARTYRDOM OF THE HOLY POLYCARP.

THE ENCYCLICAL EPISTLE OF THE CHURCH AT SMYRNA

CONCERNING THE MARTYRDOM OF THE HOLY POLYCARP

THE Church of God which sojourns at Smyrna, to the Church of God sojourning in Philomelium, and to all the congregations2 of the Holy and Catholic Church in every place: Mercy, peace, and love from God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, be multiplied.

CHAP. I.—SUBJECT OF WHICH WE WRITE.

We have written to you, brethren, as to what relates to the martyrs, and especially to the blessed Polycarp, who put an end to the persecution, having, as it were, set a seal upon it by his martyrdom. For almost all the events that happened previously [to this one], took place that the Lord might show us from above a martyrdom becoming the Gospel. For he waited to be delivered up, even as the Lord had done, that we also might become his followers, while we look not merely at what concerns ourselves, but have regard also to our neighbours. For it is the part of a true and well-founded love, not only to wish one's self to be saved, but also all the brethren.


Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, eds., "The Encyclical Epistle of the Church at Smyrna," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 39.

The above I suppose, refers to an end of a particular persecution, as our Lord did not predict an end to persecution of His followers in this world until His glorious return. Not to mention the recorded histories of many a persecution throughout history after the above mentioned.

Jhn 15:18  If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. 19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. 20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.

CHAP. II.—THE WONDERFUL CONSTANCY OF THE MARTYRS.

All the martyrdoms, then, were blessed and noble which took place according to the will of God. For it becomes us who profess greater piety than others, to ascribe the authority over all things to God. And truly, who can fail to admire their nobleness of mind, and their patience, with that love towards their Lord which they displayed?—who, when they were so torn with scourges, that the frame of their bodies, even to the very inward veins and arteries, was laid open, still patiently endured, while even those that stood by pitied and bewailed them. But they reached such a pitch of magnanimity, that not one of them let a sigh or a groan escape them; thus proving to us all that those holy martyrs of Christ, at the very time when they suffered such torments, were absent from the body, or rather, that the Lord then stood by them, and communed with them. And, looking to the grace of Christ, they despised all the torments of this world, redeeming themselves from eternal punishment by [the suffering of] a single hour. For this reason the fire of their savage executioners appeared cool to them. For they kept before their view escape from that fire which is eternal and never shall be quenched, and looked forward with the eyes of their heart to those good things which are laid up for such as endure; things "which ear hath not heard, nor eye seen, neither have entered into the heart of man," but were revealed by the Lord to them, inasmuch as they were no longer men, but had already become angels. And, in like manner, those who were condemned to the wild beasts endured dreadful tortures, being stretched out upon beds full of spikes, and subjected to various other kinds of torments, in order that, if it were possible, the tyrant might, by their lingering tortures, lead them to a denial [of Christ].

Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, eds., "The Encyclical Epistle of the Church at Smyrna," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 39.

Interesting comment concerning those martyred becoming angels. Probably just a figure of speech, as I am not aware of such teaching from scripture or otherwise in the early church.

CHAP. XIII.—THE FUNERAL PILE IS ERECTED.

This, then, was carried into effect with greater speed than it was spoken, the multitudes immediately gathering together wood and fagots out of the shops and baths; the Jews especially, according to custom, eagerly assisting them in it. And when the funeral pile was ready, Polycarp, laying aside all his garments, and loosing his girdle, sought also to take off his sandals,—a thing he was not accustomed to do, inasmuch as every one of the faithful was always eager who should first touch his skin. For, on account of his holy life, he was, even before his martyrdom, adorned with every kind of good. Immediately then they surrounded him with those substances which had been prepared for the funeral pile. But when they were about also to fix him with nails, he said, "Leave me as I am; for He that giveth me strength to endure the fire, will also enable me; without your securing me by nails, to remain without moving in the pile."

Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, eds., "The Encyclical Epistle of the Church at Smyrna," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 42.

Sounds like certain people were getting a little out of focus concerning their faith. Beginning to exalt certain individuals and their flesh apparently, above Him alone who can make anyone or thing holy.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
 
There is nothing in the flesh or of fallen humanity that is holy. Save the Holy Spirit of God which may dwell within by faith. Which Spirit cannot be imparted or attained by or through the flesh.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

: Amo  Fri Feb 20, 2026 - 09:31:31Sounds like certain people were getting a little out of focus concerning their faith. Beginning to exalt certain individuals and their flesh apparently, above Him alone who can make anyone or thing holy.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
 
There is nothing in the flesh or of fallen humanity that is holy. Save the Holy Spirit of God which may dwell within by faith. Which Spirit cannot be imparted or attained by or through the flesh.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

::announcment::  ::preachit::  ::nodding::

CHAP. XIV.—THE PRAYER OF POLYCARP.

They did not nail him then, but simply bound him. And he, placing his hands behind him, and being bound like a distinguished ram [taken] out of a great flock for sacrifice, and prepared to be an acceptable burnt-offering unto God, looked up to heaven, and said, "O Lord God Almighty, the Father of thy beloved and blessed Son Jesus Christ, by whom we have received the knowledge of Thee, the God of angels and powers, and of every creature, and of the whole race of the righteous who live before thee, I give Thee thanks that Thou hast counted me worthy of this day and this hour, that I should have a part in the number of Thy martyrs, in the cup of thy Christ, to the resurrection of eternal life, both of soul and body, through the incorruption [imparted] by the Holy Ghost. Among whom may I be accepted this day before Thee as a fat and acceptable sacrifice, according as Thou, the ever-truthful God, hast fore-ordained, hast revealed beforehand to me, and now hast fulfilled. Wherefore also I praise Thee for all things, I bless Thee, I glorify Thee, along with the everlasting and heavenly Jesus Christ, Thy beloved Son, with whom, to Thee, and the Holy Ghost, be glory both now and to all coming ages. Amen."

Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, eds., "The Encyclical Epistle of the Church at Smyrna," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 42.

Uh Oh!

Heb 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. 21 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: 24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. 26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. 28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 23 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Heb 10:4  For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Only one man died the only sacrificial death which was, is, and only will be acceptable to God unto the salvation of humanity. Nor does God require sacrifices from the lost unto salvation as all the pagan gods did and do, but rather God Himself supplied His and our sacrifice unto salvation. The individual and spiritual sacrifice of the New Covenant era is described by Paul, and it distinctly not a literal one.

Rom 12:1  I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

It was the devil and his minions of the flesh, who martyred, and burned alive one who would not submit to them. God has called for no such thing, but rather the sacrifice of self by self, in willful submission to the Father through Christ Jesus the Son. Martyrs are witnesses to the steadfastness and surety of the promises of God. Certainly not any kind of acceptable sacrifice by the wicked unto God, or any kind of blasphemy intended by the martyred, as though they were in any way shape or form the one acceptable sacrifice for sin unto God. Nevertheless, only the Spirit of God can inspire and empower the believer unto authentic martyrdom. Making those responsible for persecuting God's very own, guilty of persecuting our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ again as well.

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

: Amo  Sat Mar 07, 2026 - 17:49:30Uh Oh!

Heb 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. 21 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: 24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. 26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. 28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 23 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Heb 10:4  For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Only one man died the only sacrificial death which was, is, and only will be acceptable to God unto the salvation of humanity. Nor does God require sacrifices from the lost unto salvation as all the pagan gods did and do, but rather God Himself supplied His and our sacrifice unto salvation. The individual and spiritual sacrifice of the New Covenant era is described by Paul, and it distinctly not a literal one.

Rom 12:1  I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

It was the devil and his minions of the flesh, who martyred, and burned alive one who would not submit to them. God has called for no such thing, but rather the sacrifice of self by self, in willful submission to the Father through Christ Jesus the Son. Martyrs are witnesses to the steadfastness and surety of the promises of God. Certainly not any kind of acceptable sacrifice by the wicked unto God, or any kind of blasphemy intended by the martyred, as though they were in any way shape or form the one acceptable sacrifice for sin unto God. Nevertheless, only the Spirit of God can inspire and empower the believer unto authentic martyrdom. Making those responsible for persecuting God's very own, guilty of persecuting our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ again as well.

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

::preachit::

CHAP. XV.—POLYCARP IS NOT INJURED BY THE FIRE.

When he had pronounced this amen, and so finished his prayer, those who were appointed for the purpose kindled the fire. And as the flame blazed forth in great fury, we, to whom it was given to witness it, beheld a great miracle, and have been preserved that we might report to others what then took place. For the fire, shaping itself into the form of an arch, like the sail of a ship when filled with the wind, encompassed as by a circle the body of the martyr. And he appeared within not like flesh which is burnt, but as bread that is baked, or as gold and silver glowing in a furnace. Moreover, we perceived such a sweet odour [coming from the pile], as if frankincense or some such precious spices had been smoking there.


CHAP. XVI.—POLYCARP IS PIERCED BY A DAGGER.

At length, when those wicked men perceived that his body could not be consumed by the fire, they commanded an executioner to go near and pierce him through with a dagger. And on his doing this, there came forth a dove, and a great quantity of blood, so that the fire was extinguished; and all the people wondered that there should be such a difference between the unbelievers and the elect, of whom this most admirable Polycarp was one, having in our own times been an apostolic and prophetic teacher, and bishop of the Catholic Church which is in Smyrna. For every word that went out of his mouth either has been or shall yet be accomplished.


Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, eds., "The Encyclical Epistle of the Church at Smyrna," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 42.

A strange account indeed. In chapter 14 which we already discussed, Polycarp was compared to a sacrificial ram and burnt offering to God, which our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was Himself, being the Lamb of God sacrificed from the foundation of the world. Which I thought improper, as it was and is.

Gen 22:11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. 12  And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. 13  And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.

Rev 13:8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Now in chapter 15, he appears as a baked loaf of bread, or as glowing gold or silver. Not that I see any likeness between baked bread and glowing gold or silver, unless he looked like a glowing gold or silver baked loaf of bread. Very strange. On the other hand, our Lord and savior Jesus Christ was the bread of life. By His blood we are saved, not by putting out fires, but rather cleansing from sin. And to what purpose would God put out the fire, only to allow his servant o be stabbed to death? The Holy Spirit who is God, visibly descended upon our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the form of a dove, what pray tell therefore does a dove leaving someone represent? At best their death I suppose, but according to this epistle itself Polycarp did not die but already being an angel as it were simply ascended up to heaven. Oh yes I almost forgot, every word that went out of Polycarps mouth either has been or shall yet be fulfilled. Kind of like, you know, God or our Lord Jesus Christ.

John 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. ................35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. ...................    48 I am that bread of life............................ 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world

1Co 1:29  That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30  But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31  That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

1Co 3:21  Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours; 22  Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours; 23  And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

A little to much praise for the saved sinner Polycarp in this epistle, and allusions to attributes of our Lord Himself concerning him, than I care for.

CHAP. XVII.—THE CHRISTIANS ARE REFUSED POLYCARP'S BODY.

But when the adversary of the race of the righteous, the envious, malicious, and wicked one, perceived the impressive nature of his martyrdom, and [considered] the blameless life he had led from the beginning, and how he was now crowned with the wreath of immortality, having beyond dispute received his reward, he did his utmost that not the least memorial of him should be taken away by us, although many desired to do this, and to become possessors of his holy flesh. For this end he suggested it to Nicetes, the father of Herod and brother of Alce, to go and entreat the governor not to give up his body to be buried, "lest," said he, "forsaking Him that was crucified, they begin to worship this one." This he said at the suggestion and urgent persuasion of the Jews, who also watched us, as we sought to take him out of the fire, being ignorant of this, that it is neither possible for us ever to forsake Christ, who suffered for the salvation of such as shall be saved throughout the whole world (the blameless one for sinners), nor to worship any other. For Him indeed, as being the Son of God, we adore; but the martyrs, as disciples and followers of the Lord, we worthily love on account of their extraordinary affection towards their own King and Master, of whom may we also be made companions and fellow-disciples!

Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, eds., "The Encyclical Epistle of the Church at Smyrna," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 42–43.

More attributes of God and Christ alone being applied to Polycarp in the above inflated testimonies. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is the only man after the fall, who has been blameless since the beginning. Nor do any of us sinners have holy flesh. Our Flesh being the old man which all of us must contend and do battle with. As the apostle Paul clearly taught in his testimonies, not to mention Paul's testimony as to when the saved will receive immortality as well, which the above inflated testimony also declares Polycarp had already received beyond ability to dispute. And what of Polycarp himself according to the above testimony, thinking himself to be so greatly admired, as to his body being worshipped in the place of Jesus by professed Christians after his death? If this testimony be true, which I begin to doubt the further along I read.

Rom 8:1  There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Gal 5:16  This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

1Co 15:50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1Th 4:13  But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Jhn 5:26  For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

CHAP. XVIII.—THE BODY OF POLYCARP IS BURNED.

The centurion then, seeing the strife excited by the Jews, placed the body in the midst of the fire, and consumed it. Accordingly, we afterwards took up his bones, as being more precious than the most exquisite jewels, and more purified than gold, and deposited them in a fitting place, whither, being gathered together, as opportunity is allowed us, with joy and rejoicing, the Lord shall grant us to celebrate the anniversary of his martyrdom, both in memory of those who have already finished their course, and for the exercising and preparation of those yet to walk in their steps.

Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, eds., "The Encyclical Epistle of the Church at Smyrna," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 43.

The beginning of saint and relic worship, which continues to this day. The exaltation of another sinner such as ourselves, above their fellow laborers and brethren, in eventual competition with and to Christ Jesus our Lord. Who alone is worthy of such praise and exaltation. By whom alone any authentically blessed and or unusually committed or righteous individual, attained such a status. Which in the future occupied to much time, ceremony, and practice also belonging to Christ our Lord alone.

Nobodies bones are more precious than exquisite jewels, or purified gold. They are and will return to dust. Always meant to be replaced with that which is more precious and purified than jewelry or gold, our new glorified, purified, and eternal characters and spiritual bodies. For there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

CHAP. XIX.—PRAISE OF THE MARTYR POLYCARP.

This, then, is the account of the blessed Polycarp, who, being the twelfth that was martyred in Smyrna (reckoning those also of Philadelphia), yet occupies a place of his own in the memory of all men, insomuch that he is everywhere spoken of by the heathen themselves. He was not merely an illustrious teacher, but also a pre-eminent martyr, whose martyrdom all desire to imitate, as having been altogether consistent with the Gospel of Christ. For, having through patience overcome the unjust governor, and thus acquired the crown of immortality, he now, with the apostles and all the righteous [in heaven], rejoicingly glorifies God, even the Father, and blesses our Lord Jesus Christ, the Saviour of our souls, the Governor of our bodies, and the Shepherd of the Catholic Church throughout the world.9

Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, eds., "The Encyclical Epistle of the Church at Smyrna," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 43.

2Ti 4:6  For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7  I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8  Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Paul expected to receive his crown of immortality at Christ's appearing, not at death. Was this Polycarp greater than the apostle Paul? Or perhaps those who have stated such regarding Polycarp consider that they know what really happens at death, better than Paul did.

Jhn 6:39  And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. ..............................
40  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. ......................
44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. ......................
54  Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

According to holy scripture, the dead do not praise or glorify God.

Psa 30:1  A Psalm and Song at the dedication of the house of David. I will extol thee, O LORD; for thou hast lifted me up, and hast not made my foes to rejoice over me. 2  O LORD my God, I cried unto thee, and thou hast healed me. 3  O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit. 4  Sing unto the LORD, O ye saints of his, and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness. 5  For his anger endureth but a moment; in his favour is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning. 6  And in my prosperity I said, I shall never be moved. 7  LORD, by thy favour thou hast made my mountain to stand strong: thou didst hide thy face, and I was troubled. 8  I cried to thee, O LORD; and unto the LORD I made supplication. 9  What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth? 10  Hear, O LORD, and have mercy upon me: LORD, be thou my helper. 11  Thou hast turned for me my mourning into dancing: thou hast put off my sackcloth, and girded me with gladness; 12  To the end that my glory may sing praise to thee, and not be silent. O LORD my God, I will give thanks unto thee for ever.

Psa 88:1  A Song or Psalm for the sons of Korah, to the chief Musician upon Mahalath Leannoth, Maschil of Heman the Ezrahite. O LORD God of my salvation, I have cried day and night before thee: 2  Let my prayer come before thee: incline thine ear unto my cry; 3  For my soul is full of troubles: and my life draweth nigh unto the grave. 4  I am counted with them that go down into the pit: I am as a man that hath no strength: 5  Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand. 6  Thou hast laid me in the lowest pit, in darkness, in the deeps. 7  Thy wrath lieth hard upon me, and thou hast afflicted me with all thy waves. Selah. 8  Thou hast put away mine acquaintance far from me; thou hast made me an abomination unto them: I am shut up, and I cannot come forth. 9  Mine eye mourneth by reason of affliction: LORD, I have called daily upon thee, I have stretched out my hands unto thee. 10  Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. 11  Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction? 12  Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness? 13  But unto thee have I cried, O LORD; and in the morning shall my prayer prevent thee. 14  LORD, why castest thou off my soul? why hidest thou thy face from me? 15  I am afflicted and ready to die from my youth up: while I suffer thy terrors I am distracted. 16  Thy fierce wrath goeth over me; thy terrors have cut me off. 17  They came round about me daily like water; they compassed me about together. 18  Lover and friend hast thou put far from me, and mine acquaintance into darkness.

Psa 115:1  Not unto us, O LORD, not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, for thy mercy, and for thy truth's sake. 2  Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God? 3  But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased. 4  Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands. 5  They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not: 6  They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not: 7  They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat. 8  They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them. 9  O Israel, trust thou in the LORD: he is their help and their shield. 10  O house of Aaron, trust in the LORD: he is their help and their shield. 11  Ye that fear the LORD, trust in the LORD: he is their help and their shield. 12  The LORD hath been mindful of us: he will bless us; he will bless the house of Israel; he will bless the house of Aaron. 13  He will bless them that fear the LORD, both small and great. 14  The LORD shall increase you more and more, you and your children. 15  Ye are blessed of the LORD which made heaven and earth. 16  The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men. 17  The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. 18  But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore. Praise the LORD.

Ecc 9:5  For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6  Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. 7  Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works. 8  Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment. 9  Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun. 10  Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Hi I would offer. Martyrizing is a false doctrine that Roman Catholic with Greek Orthodox  use to build there own sect for venerating the dead (patron saints)

What I call a abomination of desolation attributing the work of our unseen Holy Father over to dying mankind and oral traditons. called Apostolic Fathers.  showing hatred of our Holy Father.

Christ as anti christ another teaching authority other than sola scriptura 

Simply deceitfully a lying sign (martyrizing ) that unbelievers wonder and marvel after just as if Christ was brining new prophecy

Completely  destroy the intended meaning of two words martyrs (simple witness) and apostle sent one-- deliver boy- UPS-- FED X

Clearly the first apostle Abel the second born sent with the gospel martyred His witness still cries out  The church began in Genesis not Mathew 

The Original Meaning of "Martyr" The Greek word μάρτυς (martyrs) literally means "witness." Nothing more and nothing less.

The law of interpretation protecting the one "author" and "finisher""the one who gives his understanding --- do not add new meaning to one word. . Itcan change all the loving commandments.  Found in Deuteronomy 4:2 another at the end(Rev22) do not add or subtract.

Two working to protect the integrity of Christ the invisible author. The just and justifier our Holy father Christ

A martyr is anyone who testifies to the truth of God's Word, often at the cost of their life, but the emphasis is on faithful witness, not the act of dying itself.----all die in the end In Sola Scriptural John the Baptist, Stephen, and the apostles were martyrs because they witnessed God's truth, even unto death. Institutional confusion---- Catholic oral tradition emphasizes suffering or death as a kind of works-righteousness making dying mankind venerable, praise worthy of prayer . .

This can falsely lead to a mindset where the act of dying for faith becomes a venerable merit, rather than faithfulness of Christ being the witness---  yoked with Christ .True Christian witness is faithful living-- testifying to sola scriptura God's Word not achieving reward through martyrdom. In that way "let the dead bury the dead "  

All Believers Are "Martyrs" in the true biblical sense. Every believer who testifies to God's living word--- whether through preaching , obedience, or enduring persecution, is a witness.(martyr ) Death may or may not occur, but the key is faithful testimony. Christ in us In that sense, all believers are martyrs, because every life lived in obedience is a testimony to God.

The unseen witness Christ must be mixed with that which the seen the temporal historical dying .  No unseen gospel version was given to the father of lies .Not subject to the gospel . .His vision the tip of his lying nose.. what the eyes see  no hidden manna-- daily bread no understanding of the parables

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.


Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

There is no eternal life for us, without our death.

Jhn 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. 25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

CHAP. XXI.—THE DATE OF THE MARTYRDOM.
Now, the blessed Polycarp suffered martyrdom on the second day of the month Xanthicus just begun, the seventh day before the Kalends of May, on the great Sabbath, at the eighth hour. He was taken by Herod, Philip the Trallian being high priest, Statius Quadratus being proconsul, but Jesus Christ being King for ever, to whom be glory, honour, majesty, and an everlasting throne, from generation to generation. Amen.

Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, eds., "The Encyclical Epistle of the Church at Smyrna," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 43.

Finally, regarding the epistle under examination, it refers to the great Sabbath while of course not addressing the Sabbath or not issue. The subject being that of the martyrdom of Polycarp. Nevertheless, it is interesting that Christians who many claim no longer observed the seventh day Sabbath or other claimed Jewish "ceremonial" practices by this time, would still refer to the day Polycarp was martyred upon with the Jewish reference to the Great Sabbath.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

THE EPISTLE OF IGNATIUS TO THE EPHESIANS

LONGER VERSION

CHAP. I.—PRAISE OF THE EPHESIANS.

I HAVE become acquainted with your greatly-desired name in God, which ye have acquired by the habit of righteousness, according to the faith and love in Christ Jesus our Saviour. Being the followers of the love of God towards man, and stirring up yourselves by the blood of Christ, you have perfectly accomplished the work which was beseeming to you. For, on hearing that I came bound from Syria for the sake of Christ, our common hope, trusting through your prayers to be permitted to fight with beasts at Rome, that so by martyrdom I may indeed become the disciple of Him "who gave Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God," [ye hastened to see me]. I have therefore received your whole multitude in the name of God, through Onesimus, a man of inexpressible love, and who is your bishop, whom I pray you by Jesus Christ to love, and that you would all seek to be like him. Blessed be God, who has granted unto you, who are yourselves so excellent, to obtain such an excellent bishop.

Ignatius of Antioch, "The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 50.

Interesting. I may be wrong, but I don't remember any of the apostles praying for martyrdom, in order to become a disciple of our Lord Jesus Christ. As though He required that His followers seek to be literally martyred by their enemies in faith. Even our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ prayed that He might be delivered from the cup of His humiliation and death by crucifixion.

Mat 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour? 41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak. 42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done. 43 And he came and found them asleep again: for their eyes were heavy. 44 And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.

The New Covenant sacrifice of the sinner is a spiritual one. Which is even more necessary than a literal one at the hands of God's enemies in martyrdom. Without the spiritual sacrifice first, a literal one would be meaningless and accomplish nothing. This is aside from the fact that one who has already spiritually sacrificed their lives unto God in Christ Jesus our Lord, would and will of course be ready for martyrdom if or when God allowed for the same unto the glory and honor of His name. Nevertheless, it is not required for salvation or to be a disciple of Christ in scripture. Nor would I think it should be something one should pray would happen to them. Perhaps though, that we might be ready and able if such were according to God's will and for the glory and honor of His name.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, hat ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

I have little use for the ECFs.  It is clear from their writings that they got some stuff right and a lot of stuff very wrong. 

There is a school of thought that Clement of Alexandria was the author of the book of Hebrews.  I suppose it is possible.   But I lean more toward Barnabas or Apollos. 

: DaveW  Sun May 10, 2026 - 13:58:39I have little use for the ECFs.  It is clear from their writings that they got some stuff right and a lot of stuff very wrong. 

There is a school of thought that Clement of Alexandria was the author of the book of Hebrews.  I suppose it is possible.   But I lean more toward Barnabas or Apollos. 

EFC false dichotomy

Earthly dying fathers are used in scripture in two very different ways. Satan would collapse them into one category because he has no spiritual understanding subject to the written gospel.

One kind of father protects all things written in the law and prophets — holding to the authority of the written testimony. Those are servants pointing beyond themselves toward Christ the unseen Holy Father.

The other kind builds outward through oral traditions of dying mankind, seeking after signs, wonders, apparitions, and religious authority as though Christ were still adding new prophecy.

To those trusting in counterfeit authority and lying signs, scripture says God sends strong delusion.

Acts 24 becomes a good example of the two kinds of fathers struggling against one another. One side accused the gospel itself of being heresy and attempted to replace the written witness with inherited traditions and accusations.

I would rather follow those truly sent by God — the apostles carrying the infallible gospel message — not later systems of earthly religious authority claiming inspired status beside scripture.

Even the term "early church fathers" can become misleading if it subtly shifts attention away from the first and highest Father: our invisible Abba Holy Father.

Scripture warns repeatedly not to elevate dying earthly mankind into spiritual fatherhood as though they were the source of divine authority.

There are always two voices:
the written word of God,
or the traditions proceeding from the mouth of men.

Jeremiah 44 reveals the pattern clearly. The people preferred the traditions of their fathers and the worship of the "queen of heaven" because they believed those practices brought earthly prosperity and visible comfort.

Jeremiah spoke in the name of the Lord, yet they answered:

"As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee."

That same conflict remains today. One voice calls men back to the written testimony and Christ alone. The other continually builds systems of visible religious comfort around traditions inherited from earthly fathers.

CHAP. II.—CONGRATULATIONS AND ENTREATIES.

As to our fellow-servant Burrhus, your deacon in regard to God and blessed in all things, I pray that he may continue blameless for the honour of the Church, and of your most blessed bishop. Crocus also, worthy both of God and you, whom we have received as the manifestation of your love to us, hath in all things refreshed7 me, and "hath not been ashamed of my chain," as the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ will also refresh9 him; together with Onesimus, and Burrhus, and Euplus, and Fronto, by means of whom I have, as to love, beheld all of you. May I always have joy of you, if indeed I be worthy of it. It is therefore befitting that you should in every way glorify Jesus Christ, who hath glorified you, that by a unanimous obedience "ye may be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment, and may all speak the same thing concerning the same thing," and that, being subject to the bishop and the presbytery, ye may in all respects be sanctified.

Ignatius of Antioch, "The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 50.

Do the scriptures really teach us to be unanimously obedient to the bishop and presbytery? To all say the same thing, concerning the same thing? As though what, Bishops have all knowledge and alone express the teachings and will of God by way of proper witnessing? So that we should imitate and subject ourselves to their examples and manner of teaching in the place of who, Jesus Christ?

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. 3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; 7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; 8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy,[\u] with cheerfulness.

Mat 20:25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. 26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; 27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: 28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, 6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. 8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

Our Lord and the Apostle Paul did not point to Bishops or a presbytery or clergy to whom a supposed laity were to be subordinated. To the contrary, they warned against those who desired after and sought such titles or exalted positions. Nor were those of the church with varying gifts instructed to seek out the approval of other mere men to learn what to say or how to present the truths of the gospel. To the contrary, they were pointed to the study of the scriptures themsleves for knowledge of such, and the power of the Holy Spirit of God unto the recollection of truth and power of presentation unto conversions. It was only in the apostasy that the Christian religion became Imperially mandated, and a laity was subjected to a clergy that were supported and backed up by Imperial command. Though some such as Ignatius planted the seeds for such illicit authority and exaltation of one man over another within professed Christianity. Once the church and the empire were united, then such illicit union brought about the enforcement these sentiments previously sought out only by way of persuasion by such as Ignatius. Bringing persecution upon those who would not conform to such wishes by mere men, with no scriptural command concerning such.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Nevertheless -

2Ti 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

The knowledge of truth was to be obtained by careful and prayerful study of the holy scriptures. Not the boasted positions of mere men who sought and seek to lord themselves over us. As to the type and power of the presentation of scriptural truths -

Jhn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? 23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. 25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. 27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. 28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. 29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.


Mrk 13:9  But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them. 10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations. 11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

Luk 12:11 And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say: 12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.

Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

CHAP. III.—EXHORTATIONS TO UNITY.

I do not issue orders to you, as if I were some great person. For though I am bound for His name, I am not yet perfect in Jesus Christ. For now I begin to be a disciple, and I speak to you as my fellow-servants. For it was needful for me to have been admonished by you in faith, exhortation, patience, and long-suffering. But inasmuch as love suffers me not to be silent in regard to you, I have therefore taken upon me first to exhort you that ye would run together in accordance with the will of God. For even Jesus Christ does all things according to the will of the Father, as He Himself declares in a certain place, "I do always those things that please Him." Wherefore it behoves us also to live according to the will of God in Christ, and to imitate Him as Paul did. For, says he, "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ."

Ignatius of Antioch, "The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 50.

Here Ignatius hits the mark concerning proper submission to elected church leaders. They are to be followed only in that they exemplify the life or teachings of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The word, life, and teachings of Christ are what the world will be judged by. Not the authority of the many differing opinions or teachings of men with titles in various churches or denominations, who teach many an extra biblical doctrine or practice, or blatantly contradict holy scripture and the teachings of our Lord. There is no sin in disobeying any bishop or otherwise, who practices or preaches such. Whether a state or empire backs such teachings up by law or not. We will each be judged by the words and teachings of Jesus Christ, not such as these.

Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. 30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Jhn 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Jhn 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: 55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

CHAP. IV.—THE SAME CONTINUED.

Wherefore it is fitting that ye also should run together in accordance with the will of the bishop who by God's appointment rules over you. Which thing ye indeed of yourselves do, being instructed by the Spirit. For your justly-renowned presbytery, being worthy of God, is fitted as exactly to the bishop as the strings are to the harp. Thus, being joined together in concord and harmonious love, of which Jesus Christ is the Captain and Guardian, do ye, man by man, become but one choir; so that, agreeing together in concord, and obtaining a perfect unity with God, ye may indeed be one in harmonious feeling with God the Father, and His beloved Son Jesus Christ our Lord. For, says He, "Grant unto them, Holy Father, that as I and Thou are one, they also may be one in us." It is therefore profitable that you, being joined together with God in an unblameable unity, should be the followers of the example of Christ, of whom also ye are members.

Ignatius of Antioch, "The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 51.

Mrk 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. 43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: 44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all. 45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

As always, Ignatius advice to submit to the will of the bishop is only if said bishop remains within the boundaries of the teachings of our Lord and holy scripture. Bishops are to be as ministers of God, they are not to lord themselves over or exercise authority upon the body of Christ, as the Gentiles do over their subordinates. This is why the Church of Christ must remain separate from the state or empire. As soon as civil authorities enforce the dogmas of a church, the leaders of the church become just like the Gentiles and are therefore apostate. Especially if they agree and support this unholy union. How could it be any other way, when our Lord and the Apostle Paul have warned us that false leaders would arise from within the church, who would seek such authority for themselves?

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. 15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

It is incumbent therefore, upon all to examine and compare the teachings and lives of those who have been given and or claim authority within the church, with the teachings of holy scripture for authenticity. For what excuse will the deceived who had the word of God before them, and made no use of it unto knowledge, justification, and sanctification, have before God on that great day?

Act 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. 12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

Choose that which is more noble, and search the scriptures to see if the things you have been taught are truly so. What, do your professed leaders have authority above that of the Apostle Paul? If it was right to check what Paul preached concerning the truth, then it is certainly right and noble to check what your church leaders preach, teach, or exemplify, for conformity to the teachings of holy scripture. Especially since we have been warned of wolves seeking lordship over the Lord's flock. Make use of that which has been given to you by God, for this very purpose.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

CHAP. V.—THE PRAISE OF UNITY.

For if I, in this brief space of time, have enjoyed such fellowship with your bishop—I mean not of a mere human, but of a spiritual nature—how much more do I reckon you happy, who so depend on him as the Church does on the Lord Jesus,]/u] and the Lord does on God and His Father, that so all things may agree in unity! Let no man deceive himself: if any one be not within the altar, he is deprived of the bread of God. For if the prayer of one or two possesses such power that Christ stands in the midst of them, how much more will the prayer of the bishop and of the whole Church, ascending up in harmony to God, prevail for the granting of all their petitions in Christ! He, therefore, that separates himself from such, and does not meet in the society where sacrifices are offered, and with "the Church of the first-born whose names are written in heaven," is a wolf in sheep's clothing, while he presents a mild outward appearance. Do ye, beloved, be careful to be subject to the bishop, and the presbyters and the deacons. For he that is subject to these is obedient to Christ, who has appointed them; but he that is disobedient to these is disobedient to Christ Jesus. And "he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him." For he that yields not obedience to his superiors is self-confident, quarrelsome, and proud. But "God," says [the Scripture] "resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble;" and, "The proud have greatly transgressed." The Lord also says to the priests, "He that heareth you, heareth Me; and he that heareth Me, heareth the Father that sent Me. He that despiseth you, despiseth Me; and he that despiseth Me, despiseth Him that sent Me."

Ignatius of Antioch, "The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 51.

Wow, Ignatius is really heading off course with the above almost blasphemous and or twisted statements. The Lord Jesus Christ is God, the self existing one, one with the Father, the Alpha and the Omega. To suggest that anyone should depend upon their bishop as they do their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is borderline, if not straight forward blasphemy. I'm not going there.

We have the following testimony of Holy Scripture in relation to wolves.

Mat 7:15  Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30  Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

One thing to remember is that Scripture presents two kinds of fathers.

There is the father of lies, who has no understanding of the gospel hidden in parables and judges according to the lust of the eyes.

Then there is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who gives understanding by His Spirit through the written Word.

Saul of Tarsus was once a "father" according to the traditions of his day. In his zeal, he persecuted the born-again believers.

"I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women..." (Acts 22:4, KJV)

But after Christ opened his eyes, Saul became Paul. Before his accusers, he did not appeal to the traditions of men. Instead, he confessed:

"Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me... so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets." (Acts 24:13–14, KJV)

Paul's authority was no longer the traditions of men, but the written Scriptures. The gospel reveals the unseen things of Christ, our hope of glory, to those who hear God's Word.


"Taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers..." (Acts 22:3, KJV)

Filled with zeal, he persecuted those who followed Christ.

But after the Lord opened his eyes, Paul's authority changed. He no longer rested in the traditions of the fathers, but in the testimony of the one heavenly Father revealed in the written Scriptures.

His confession became:

"So worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets." (Acts 24:14, KJV)

The contrast is between the traditions of earthly fathers and the written testimony given by our one heavenly Father.

"For one is your Father, which is in heaven." (Matthew 23:9, KJV)

The law of the fathers gave way to the law of faith revealed by the one Father through His Son.the dynamic duo

CHAP. VI.— HAVE RESPECT TO THE BISHOP AS TO CHRIST HIMSELF.

The more, therefore, you see the bishop silent, the more do you reverence him. For we ought to receive every one whom the Master of the house sends to be over His household, as we would do Him that sent him. It is manifest, therefore, that we should look upon the bishop even as we would look upon the Lord Himself, standing, as he does, before the Lord. For "it behoves the man who looks carefully about him, and is active in his business, to stand before kings, and not to stand before slothful men."3 And indeed Onesimus himself greatly commends your good order in God, that ye all live according to the truth, and that no sect has any dwelling-place among you. Nor indeed do ye hearken to any one rather than to Jesus Christ, the true Shepherd and Teacher. And ye are, as Paul wrote to you, "one body and one spirit, because ye have also been called in one hope of the faith.5 Since also "there is one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in all." Such, then, are ye, having been taught by such instructors, Paul the Christ-bearer, and Timothy the most faithful.

Ignatius of Antioch, "The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 52.

Hmmm? First he tells them to look upon the bishop, a sinner such as ourselves, as though they were looking upon the Lord Himself. Seemingly border line blasphemy once again. Then he states that they do not hearken to any other than Jesus Christ, the true shepherd. Two seemingly contradictory statements. The main ingredient which Ignatius seems to leave out of the picture, which might remedy the problems I see with his continued exaltation of the Bishops, is the admonition to judge all Bishops and otherwise in accordance with the testimonies of Holy Scripture. Without this main ingredient, you simply have the exaltation of Bishops who are sinners such as ourselves, as unto God. If this very thing was not exactly what happened over time, one might be inclined to attribute this lack as a simple presumption on Ignatius' part, that all professed Christians were already doing so of their own accord.

Nevethrless and to the contrary, history records the establishment of one supreme Bishop over all others. Whose subservient Bishops were and are over all the priests of a supposed New Covenant priesthood as well, to replace the Old Covenant priesthood of sinful intermediaries upon whom the laity are dependent for intercession and salvation. An entire and enormous Old Covenant type system put in place during our New Covenant, in direct violation of the teachings and purpose of our Lord Jesus Christ and His authentic church. The latter consisting of those who truly do look to the Lord Jesus Christ alone for salvation by Him alone, and His intercession alone for the forgiveness of their sins, by faith in His once and for all time sacrifice for our sins. Whom seek to no longer crucify their Lord afresh by stubborn disobedience and or some extra biblical un-bloody sacrifice of our Lord once again, and again, and again. But rather by the obedience of faith, in the willful crucifixion of their own sinful selves at the foot of the cross. That the Spirit of God might dwell within them unto the establishment of Christ's righteousness within, and not their own. All of this and more also, according to the exemplary life and teachings of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and His apostles and prophets. Whose written testimonies are here for us to live by in the Holy Scriptures, the last and final word concerning all doctrine.

2Ti 3:10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, 11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

: garee  Sun Jul 12, 2026 - 07:20:50One thing to remember is that Scripture presents two kinds of fathers.

There is the father of lies, who has no understanding of the gospel hidden in parables and judges according to the lust of the eyes.

Then there is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who gives understanding by His Spirit through the written Word.

Saul of Tarsus was once a "father" according to the traditions of his day. In his zeal, he persecuted the born-again believers.

"I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women..." (Acts 22:4, KJV)

But after Christ opened his eyes, Saul became Paul. Before his accusers, he did not appeal to the traditions of men. Instead, he confessed:

"Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me... so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets." (Acts 24:13–14, KJV)

Paul's authority was no longer the traditions of men, but the written Scriptures. The gospel reveals the unseen things of Christ, our hope of glory, to those who hear God's Word.


"Taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers..." (Acts 22:3, KJV)

Filled with zeal, he persecuted those who followed Christ.

But after the Lord opened his eyes, Paul's authority changed. He no longer rested in the traditions of the fathers, but in the testimony of the one heavenly Father revealed in the written Scriptures.

His confession became:

"So worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets." (Acts 24:14, KJV)

The contrast is between the traditions of earthly fathers and the written testimony given by our one heavenly Father.

"For one is your Father, which is in heaven." (Matthew 23:9, KJV)

The law of the fathers gave way to the law of faith revealed by the one Father through His Son.the dynamic duo

Agreed. Nevertheless -

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

: Amo  Sun Jul 12, 2026 - 10:16:23Agreed. Nevertheless -

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

I agree. Hebrews 4:2 says the gospel was preached to them just as it is to us, yet many never profited because they did not mix what they heard with faith.

That's why Christ taught in parables. The historical events were real, but they were also God's way of revealing the unseen gospel. When we rightly divide the Scriptures, comparing the temporal things we can see with the eternal things we cannot see (2 Corinthians 4:18), the history isn't changed—it becomes richer because we see what it was always pointing to.

The history remains true, but faith allows us to see the eternal message hidden within it.

: Amo"Church Fathers" Scriptural or Not

I don't think you can lump them all together for evaluation.  The quality of the works there varies drastically. 

It's necessary to consider them each separately.  In my opinion:

Should be canon:
Epistle of Barnabas

Reliable, not Scripture
The Didache
Fragments of Papias

Useful Historical Context
Irenaeus
Justin Martyr

Too Political for my Liking
Clement
Polycarp

Don't Remember Them Well Enough to Say
Ignatius
Mathetes

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Fri Jul 17, 2026 - 11:20:00I don't think you can lump them all together for evaluation.  The quality of the works there varies drastically. 

It's necessary to consider them each separately.  In my opinion:

Should be canon:
Epistle of Barnabas

Reliable, not Scripture
The Didache
Fragments of Papias

Useful Historical Context
Irenaeus
Justin Martyr

Too Political for my Liking
Clement
Polycarp

Don't Remember Them Well Enough to Say
Ignatius
Mathetes

Agreed. That is why I am going through them one at a time, regarding their fidelity to Holy Scripture or not. At the very least, they should reveal historical fidelity to the teachings of the Holy Scriptures, or historical departure and or apostasy from the same.

CHAP. VII.—BEWARE OF FALSE TEACHERS.

But some most worthless persons are in the habit of carrying about the name [of Jesus Christ] in wicked guile, while yet they practise things unworthy of God, and hold opinions contrary to the doctrine of Christ, to their own destruction, and that of those who give credit to them, whom you must avoid as ye would wild beasts. For "the righteous man who avoids them is saved for ever; but the destruction of the ungodly is sudden, and a subject of rejoicing." For "they are dumb dogs, that cannot bark,"9 raving mad, and biting secretly, against whom ye must be on your guard, since they labour under an incurable disease. But our Physician is the only true God, the unbegotten and unapproachable, the Lord of all, the Father and Begetter of the only-begotten Son. We have also as a Physician the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For "the Word was made flesh."11 Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passible body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts.

Ignatius of Antioch, "The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 52.

It doesn't seem proper, that one who follows our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, should be referring to anyone as worthless. Our Lord died for everyone, making it impossible for any to be worthless. Nor does it seem proper to rejoice over the destruction of the ungodly.

Ezk 18:31  Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Ezk 33:10  Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live? 11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Our Lord has appeared, and been seen in vision, in bodily form. Surely He is not restricted in any sense as such, nevertheless He has manifested Himself in such form to us several times.

Gen 3:8  And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

Gen 18:1  And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; 2  And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, 3  And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant: 4  Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree: 5  And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said. 6  And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth. 7  And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it. 8  And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat. 9  And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent. 10  And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him. 11  Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women. 12  Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also? 13  And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old? 14  Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son. 15  Then Sarah denied, saying, I laughed not; for she was afraid. And he said, Nay; but thou didst laugh. 16  And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way. 17  And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; 18  Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19  For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him. 20  [v]And the LORD said[/b], Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21  I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

Gen 32:24  And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. 25  And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. 26  And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27  And 28  And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. 29  And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. 30  And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Jos 5:13  And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? 14  And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? 15  And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

Ezk 1:4  And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire. 5  Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man. 6  And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings. 7  And their feet were straight feet; and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf's foot: and they sparkled like the colour of burnished brass. 8  And they had the hands of a man under their wings on their four sides; and they four had their faces and their wings. 9 Their wings were joined one to another; they turned not when they went; they went every one straight forward. 10 As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle. 11 Thus were their faces: and their wings were stretched upward; two wings of every one were joined one to another, and two covered their bodies. 12 And they went every one straight forward: whither the spirit was to go, they went; and they turned not when they went. 13 As for the likeness of the living creatures, their appearance was like burning coals of fire, and like the appearance of lamps: it went up and down among the living creatures; and the fire was bright, and out of the fire went forth lightning. 14 And the living creatures ran and returned as the appearance of a flash of lightning. 15 Now as I beheld the living creatures, behold one wheel upon the earth by the living creatures, with his four faces. 16 The appearance of the wheels and their work was like unto the colour of a beryl: and they four had one likeness: and their appearance and their work was as it were a wheel in the middle of a wheel. 17 When they went, they went upon their four sides: and they turned not when they went. 18 As for their rings, they were so high that they were dreadful; and their rings were full of eyes round about them four. 19 And when the living creatures went, the wheels went by them: and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up. 20 Whithersoever the spirit was to go, they went, thither was their spirit to go; and the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels. 21 When those went, these went; and when those stood, these stood; and when those were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels. 22 And the likeness of the firmament upon the heads of the living creature was as the colour of the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above. 23 And under the firmament were their wings straight, the one toward the other: every one had two, which covered on this side, and every one had two, which covered on that side, their bodies. 24 And when they went, I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise of great waters, as the voice of the Almighty, the voice of speech, as the noise of an host: when they stood, they let down their wings. 25 And there was a voice from the firmament that was over their heads, when they stood, and had let down their wings. 26 And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it. 27 And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about. 28  As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

: Amo  Tue Feb 10, 2026 - 09:49:19Interesting comment concerning those martyred becoming angels. Probably just a figure of speech, as I am not aware of such teaching from scripture or otherwise in the early church.

martyrdoms false prophecy oral tradtion s dying mankind


The Original Meaning of "Martyr" The Greek  word μάρτυς (martys) literally means "witness." Nothing more and nothing less.

The law of interpretation protects the one "author" and "finisher ""the one who gives his understanding --- do not add new meaning to one word. . It can change all the loving commandments.  Found in Deuteronomy 4:2 another at the end(Rev22) do not add or subtract. 

Two witnesses  working to protect the integrity of Christ the invisible author. The just and justifier our Holy father Christ

A martyr is anyone who testifies to the truth of God's Word, often at the cost of their life, but the emphasis is on faithful witness, not the act of dying itself.----all die in the end

In Sola Scriptural John the Baptist, Stephen, and the apostles were martyrs because they witnessed God's truth, even unto death. 

Institutional confusion---- Catholic oral tradition emphasizes suffering or death as a kind of works-righteousness making dying mankind venerable, praise worthy of prayer . .

This can falsely lead to a mindset where the act of dying for faith becomes a venerable merit, rather than faithfulness of Christ being the witness---  yoked with Christ .

True Christian witness is faithful living-- testifying to sola scriptura God's Word not achieving reward through martyrdom. In that way "let the dead bury the dead

"All Believers Are "Martyrs" in the true biblical sense. Every believer who testifies to God's living word--- whether through preaching , obedience, or enduring persecution, is a witness.(martyr )

Death may or may not occur, but the  key is faithful testimony. Christ in us In that sense, all believers are martyrs, because every life lived in obedience is a testimony to God.

The unseen witness of Christ must be mixed with that which is seen the temporal historical dying .  No unseen gospel version as a parable is given to the father of lies .Not subject to the gospel . .His vision the tip of his lying nose what the eyes see  no hidden manna-- daily bread no understanding of the parables 

We will now move on to the  -

THE EPISTLE OF IGNATIUS TO THE MAGNESIANS

CHAP. II.—I REJOICE IN YOUR MESSENGERS.

Since, then, I have had the privilege of seeing you, through Damas your most worthy bishop, and through your worthy presbyters Bassus and Apollonius, and through my fellow-servant the deacon Sotio, whose friendship may I ever enjoy, inasmuch as he, by the grace of God, is subject to the bishop and presbytery, in the law of Jesus Christ, [I now write to you].

Ignatius of Antioch, "The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 59.

Interesting, as there actually is no law of Jesus Christ pertaining to bishops or a presbytery. As there were no bishops or that referred to as a presbytery during His days among us. Rather the Old Covenant system of leadership and organization. With which He was continually in conflict, as they had wandered far from proper biblical leadership, as our Lord and His apostles predicted a great deal of New Covenant leadership would as well. Therefore they also firmly established the word of God through our Lord, His prophets, and apostles, as the final word and standard regarding all issues or questions of authority. Not mere men in supposedly high positions above all others, who are themsleves sinners and therefore susceptible to corruption just like the rest of us. As the many examples in Holy Scripture of such, not to mention history, have clearly demonstrated.

CHAP. III.—HONOUR YOUR YOUTHFUL BISHOP.

Now it becomes you also not to despise the age of your bishop, but to yield him all reverence, according to the will of God the Father, as I have known even holy presbyters do, not having regard to the manifest youth [of their bishop], but to his knowledge in God; inasmuch as "not the ancient are [necessarily] wise, nor do the aged understand prudence; but there is a spirit in men." For Daniel the wise, at twelve years of age, became possessed of the divine Spirit, and convicted the elders, who in vain carried their grey hairs, of being false accusers, and of lusting after the beauty of another man's wife. Samuel also, when he was but a little child, reproved Eli, who was ninety years old, for giving honour to his sons rather than to God. In like manner, Jeremiah also received this message from God, "Say not, I am a child." Solomon too, and Josiah, [exemplified the same thing.] The former, being made king at twelve years of age, gave that terrible and difficult judgment in the case of the two women concerning their children. The latter, coming to the throne when eight years old, cast down the altars and temples [of the idols], and burned down the groves, for they were dedicated to demons, and not to God. And he slew the false priests, as the corrupters and deceivers of men, and not the worshippers of the Deity. Wherefore youth is not to be despised when it is devoted to God. But he is to be despised who is of a wicked mind, although he be old, and full of wicked days. Timothy the Christ-bearer was young, but hear what his teacher writes to him: "Let no man despise thy youth, but be thou an example of the believers in word and in conduct." It is becoming, therefore, that ye also should be obedient to your bishop, and contradict him in nothing; for it is a fearful thing to contradict any such person. For no one does [by such conduct] deceive him that is visible, but does [in reality] seek to mock Him that is invisible, who, however, cannot be mocked by any one. And every such act has respect not to man, but to God. For God says to Samuel, "They have not mocked thee, but Me." And Moses declares, "For their murmuring is not against us, but against the Lord God." No one of those has, [in fact,] remained unpunished, who rose up against their superiors. For Dathan and Abiram did not speak against the law, but against Moses, and were cast down alive into Hades. Korah also, and the two hundred and fifty who conspired with him against Aaron, were destroyed by fire. Absalom, again, who had slain his brother, became suspended on a tree, and had his evil-designing heart thrust through with darts. In like manner was Abeddadan beheaded for the same reason. Uzziah, when he presumed to oppose the priests and the priesthood, was smitten with leprosy. Saul also was dishonoured, because he did not wait for Samuel the high priest. It behoves you, therefore, also to reverence your superiors.

Ignatius of Antioch, "The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 60.

Wow. I wonder just how young the bishop Ignatius is demanding all submit to, actually was? I'm not so sure about the way Ignatius used or applied the scriptures concerning very young prophets or kings. We know from history that later on, many obtained high offices within the church by purchasing the positions, or other fraudulent or unbiblical means. Though we do not know anything about this case Ignatius is addressing. Nevertheless, Ignatius definitely inappropriately applied examples of disobedience to prophets and or kings in the older years of their lives, to his position concerning an apparently very young bishop. Thereby falsely supporting his request.

I would say Ignatius unbalanced and unbiblical views in relation to the exaltation of the Bishopric, is my main beef with his writings. As they unquestionably aided the attitude which led to the false position of a universal bishop above all others, between Christ and the rest of the church, and an unhealthy submissiveness of an ill invented laity to bishops as well. There is nothing wrong with being obedient to your bishop when their teachings and leadership are in line with biblical teaching and standards. There most certainly is something wrong with obeying or contradicting them in nothing though, when they are not. Duh!

CHAP. IV.—SOME WICKEDLY ACT INDEPENDENTLY OF THE BISHOP

It is fitting, then, not only to be called Christians, but to be so in reality. For it is not the being called so, but the being really so, that renders a man blessed. To those who indeed talk of the bishop, but do all things without him, will He who is the true and first Bishop, and the only High Priest by nature, declare, "Why call ye Me Lord, and do not the things which I say?" For such persons seem to me not possessed of a good conscience, but to be simply dissemblers and hypocrites.

Ignatius of Antioch, "The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 61.

Ignatius again, suggesting that doing things without the bishop and or his knowledge I reckon, is the equivalent of disobeying our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.