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I had started this topic on the last boards I was posting in. Before they locked it and others down, and removed me from membership. I think it is worthy of time and consideration, and so will restart it here with continuing posts upon the subject. Please do contribute as you wish.

chap. xxv.—the phœnix an emblem of our resurrection.

Let us consider that wonderful sign [of the resurrection] which takes place in Eastern lands, that is, in Arabia and the countries round about. There is a certain bird which is called a phœnix. This is the only one of its kind, and lives five hundred years. And when the time of its dissolution draws near that it must die, it builds itself a nest of frankincense, and myrrh, and other spices, into which, when the time is fulfilled, it enters and dies. But as the flesh decays a certain kind of worm is produced, which, being nourished by the juices of the dead bird, brings forth feathers. Then, when it has acquired strength, it takes up that nest in which are the bones of its parent, and bearing these it passes from the land of Arabia into Egypt, to the city called Heliopolis. And, in open day, flying in the sight of all men, it places them on the altar of the sun, and having done this, hastens back to its former abode. The priests then inspect the registers of the dates, and find that it has returned exactly as the five hundredth year was completed.

chap. xxvi.—we shall rise again, then, as the scripture also testifies.

Do we then deem it any great and wonderful thing for the Maker of all things to raise up again those that have piously served Him in the assurance of a good faith, when even by a bird He shows us the mightiness of His power to fulfil His promise? For [the Scripture] saith in a certain place, "Thou shalt raise me up, and I shall confess unto Thee;"  and again, "I laid me down, and slept; I awaked, because Thou art with me;" and again, Job says, "Thou shalt raise up this flesh of mine, which has suffered all these things."

(Clement of Rome, "The First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 12.)

The above quote is one of the reasons I consider the writings of the "Church Fathers" to be inferior to holy scripture. This early on, Clement is already introducing pagan mythology into the mix, to be considered regarding the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ and his faithful followers.

Phoenix | Egyptian, Greek & Roman | Britannica

Quoted article below from link above.

phoenix, in ancient Egypt and in Classical antiquity, a fabulous bird associated with the worship of the sun. The Egyptian phoenix was said to be as large as an eagle, with brilliant scarlet and gold plumage and a melodious cry. Only one phoenix existed at any time, and it was very long-lived—no ancient authority gave it a life span of less than 500 years. As its end approached, the phoenix fashioned a nest of aromatic boughs and spices, set it on fire, and was consumed in the flames. From the pyre miraculously sprang a new phoenix, which, after embalming its father's ashes in an egg of myrrh, flew with the ashes to Heliopolis ("City of the Sun") in Egypt, where it deposited them on the altar in the temple of the Egyptian god of the sun, Re. A variant of the story made the dying phoenix fly to Heliopolis and immolate itself in the altar fire, from which the young phoenix then rose.

The Egyptians associated the phoenix with immortality, and that symbolism had a widespread appeal in late antiquity. The phoenix was compared to undying Rome, and it appears on the coinage of the late Roman Empire as a symbol of the Eternal City. It was also widely interpreted as an allegory of resurrection and life after death—ideas that also appealed to emergent Christianity.

In Islamic mythology the phoenix was identified with the ʿanqāʾ (Persian: sīmorgh), a huge mysterious bird (probably a heron) that was originally created by God with all perfections but thereafter became a plague and was killed.

So, here we have in the writings of Clement, the introduction of pagan sun worshiping mythology. A trend that would only increase over time unto the formation of the first mandated form of "Christianity" for the Roman Empire. One heavily influenced and established by professed converted sun worshipping Emperors, and a mass of pagan sun worshippers brought into the "Church" via imperial mandate over and above gospel believing conviction and conversion.

Did you want to talk about Clement specifically, or all church fathers?

I find your criticism of Clement to be fair.

I don't think you can/should extend it to all the other writings of the church fathers, except perhaps to someone who was the student of Clement.

I began reading and examining a collection of them, and addressing things which did not seem to line up very well with Holy Scripture. I only made it so far, before they locked down the topic. The intention is to go through them all over time, reading them all, and comparing their writings with that of the scriptures as well. Pointing out where they appear to have drifted away from scripture, from my point of view or knowledge in any case.

I have some more posts regarding that which I have already examined, after which the pace will probably slow down, as I will have to continue reading the rest of course, before commenting. I have read some of them in the past, but never studied them as a whole. Which will no doubt take quite some time.

Having finished reading Clement of Rome, apart from his reference to the Phoenix, the work seems to be very biblically based. Somewhat generic though, in that it did not address any of the specifics of the contentions it was addressing. Focussed upon salvation in Christ alone, our High Priest. The importance of faith, right living, the commandments of God and Jesus, and unity of course. As the holy scriptures admonish us to keep the commandments of God, without any reference to the changing of the fourth commandment, so also does this address by Clement. Unless of course a contention regarding such a change was one of the issues he was addressing, which we do not know. Seems like there would have been some debate about such a change, if it were occurring at the time. So probably not. I suppose I will move on to the Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus next.

: Amo  Sun Dec 21, 2025 - 21:12:21Having finished reading Clement of Rome, apart from his reference to the Phoenix, the work seems to be very biblically based. Somewhat generic though, in that it did not address any of the specifics of the contentions it was addressing. Focussed upon salvation in Christ alone, our High Priest. The importance of faith, right living, the commandments of God and Jesus, and unity of course. As the holy scriptures admonish us to keep the commandments of God, without any reference to the changing of the fourth commandment, so also does this address by Clement. Unless of course a contention regarding such a change was one of the issues he was addressing, which we do not know. Seems like there would have been some debate about such a change, if it were occurring at the time. So probably not. I suppose I will move on to the Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus next.

I found Clement to be very top-down-authoritarian, which I suppose is to be expected in Rome itself.  I don't find the NT to be that way, though.

Among the early church fathers, I find the Didache and the Epistle of Barnabas to be most trustworthy.

Agreed. Christ is the head, the rest of us are the body, to do as the mind directs us.

I've read parts of them some time ago. Intend to get to them along with the rest as time allows.

Emphasis in the following quoted materials is mine.

THE EPISTLE OF MATHETES TO DIOGNETUS

CHAP. I.—OCCASION OF THE EPISTLE.

SINCE I see thee, most excellent Diognetus, exceedingly desirous to learn the mode of worshipping God prevalent among the Christians, and inquiring very carefully and earnestly concerning them, what God they trust in, and what form of religion they observe, so as all to look down upon the world itself, and despise death, while they neither esteem those to be gods that are reckoned such by the Greeks, nor hold to the superstition of the Jews; and what is the affection which they cherish among themselves; and why, in fine, this new kind or practice [of piety] has only now entered into the world, and not long ago; I cordially welcome this thy desire, and I implore God, who enables us both to speak and to hear, to grant to me so to speak, that, above all, I may hear you have been edified, and to you so to hear, that I who speak may have no cause of regret for having done so.

CHAP. II.—THE VANITY OF IDOLS.

Come, then, after you have freed yourself from all prejudices possessing your mind, and laid aside what you have been accustomed to, as something apt to deceive you, and being made, as if from the beginning, a new man, inasmuch as, according to your own confession, you are to be the hearer of a new [system of] doctrine; come and contemplate, not with your eyes only, but with your understanding, the substance and the form of those whom ye declare and deem to be gods. Is not one of them a stone similar to that on which we tread? Is not a second brass, in no way superior to those vessels which are constructed for our ordinary use? Is not a third wood, and that already rotten? Is not a fourth silver, which needs a man to watch it, lest it be stolen? Is not a fifth iron, consumed by rust? Is not a sixth earthenware, in no degree more valuable than that which is formed for the humblest purposes? Are not all these of corruptible matter? Are they not fabricated by means of iron and fire? Did not the sculptor fashion one of them, the brazier a second, the silversmith a third, and the potter a fourth? Was not every one of them, before they were formed by the arts of these [workmen] into the shape of these [gods], each in its own way subject to change? Would not those things which are now vessels, formed of the same materials, become like to such, if they met with the same artificers? Might not these, which are now worshipped by you, again be made by men vessels similar to others? Are they not all deaf? Are they not blind? Are they not without life? Are they not destitute of feeling? Are they not incapable of motion? Are they not all liable to rot? Are they not all corruptible? These things ye call gods; these ye serve; these ye worship; and ye become altogether like to them. For this reason ye hate the Christians, because they do not deem these to be gods. But do not ye yourselves, who now think and suppose [such to be gods], much more cast contempt upon them than they [the Christians do]? Do ye not much more mock and insult them, when ye worship those that are made of stone and earthenware, without appointing any persons to guard them; but those made of silver and gold ye shut up by night, and appoint watchers to look after them by day, lest they be stolen? And by those gifts which ye mean to present to them, do ye not, if they are possessed of sense, rather punish [than honour] them? But if, on the other hand, they are destitute of sense, ye convict them of this fact, while ye worship them with blood and the smoke of sacrifices. Let any one of you suffer such indignities! Let any one of you endure to have such things done to himself! But not a single human being will, unless compelled to it, endure such treatment, since he is endowed with sense and reason. A stone, however, readily bears it, seeing it is insensible. Certainly you do not show [by your conduct] that he [your God] is possessed of sense. And as to the fact that Christians are not accustomed to serve such gods, I might easily find many other things to say; but if even what has been said does not seem to any one sufficient, I deem it idle to say anything further.

CHAP. III.—SUPERSTITIONS OF THE JEWS.

And next, I imagine that you are most desirous of hearing something on this point, that the Christians do not observe the same forms of divine worship as do the Jews. The Jews, then, if they abstain from the kind of service above described, and deem it proper to worship one God as being Lord of all, [are right]; but if they offer Him worship in the way which we have described, they greatly err. For while the Gentiles, by offering such things to those that are destitute of sense and hearing, furnish an example of madness; they, on the other hand by thinking to offer these things to God as if He needed them, might justly reckon it rather an act of folly than of divine worship. For He that made heaven and earth, and all that is therein, and gives to us all the things of which we stand in need, certainly requires none of those things which He Himself bestows on such as think of furnishing them to Him. But those who imagine that, by means of blood, and the smoke of sacrifices and burnt-offerings, they offer sacrifices [acceptable] to Him, and that by such honours they show Him respect,—these, by supposing that they can give anything to Him who stands in need of nothing, appear to me in no respect to differ from those who studiously confer the same honour on things destitute of sense, and which therefore are unable to enjoy such honours.

CHAP. IV.—THE OTHER OBSERVANCES OF THE JEWS.

But as to their scrupulosity concerning meats, and their superstition as respects the Sabbaths, and their boasting about circumcision, and their fancies about fasting and the new moons, which are utterly ridiculous and unworthy of notice,—I do not think that you require to learn anything from me. For, to accept some of those things which have been formed by God for the use of men as properly formed, and to reject others as useless and redundant,—how can this be lawful? And to speak falsely of God, as if He forbade us to do what is good on the Sabbath-days,—how is not this impious? And to glory in the circumcision of the flesh as a proof of election, and as if, on account of it, they were specially beloved by God,—how is it not a subject of ridicule? And as to their observing months and days, as if waiting upon the stars and the moon, and their distributing, according to their own tendencies, the appointments of God, and the vicissitudes of the seasons, some for festivities, and others for mourning,—who would deem this a part of divine worship, and not much rather a manifestation of folly? I suppose, then, you are sufficiently convinced that the Christians properly abstain from the vanity and error common [to both Jews and Gentiles], and from the busy-body spirit and vain boasting of the Jews; but you must not hope to learn the mystery of their peculiar mode of worshipping God from any mortal.

Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, eds., "The Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 25–26.

In the above quoted portions of THE EPISTLE OF MATHETES TO DIOGNETUS, we begin to see greater departure, or shall we say deviation from the testimony of holy scripture. In an attempt it appears, to distance "Christianity" from the Jews and apparently the teachings of the Old Testament. In the very first chapter referring to "the superstitions of the Jews", and alluding to "Christianity" as a new religion, rather than the New Covenant era of the most ancient and true religion or message on earth. The everlasting gospel of Jesus Christ.

In the second chapter we see that Mathetes does not consider all Jewish or Old Testament teaching as superstition, since his stance upon idols is most obviously identical to that of the Jews and Old Testament teaching. Particularly in line with that of the first and second commandments of God. These commandments in any case, he has not ditched into the category of superstition. Nevertheless, declaring anything the Jews believed by commandment and or teaching of God within holy scripture to have become superstition during the New covenant era, is gross error. Our God is not, has never been, and will not ever be the creator or propagator of superstitions.

Chapter three misses and excellent opportunity to address the changes from Old Covenant to New Covenant teaching and practice regarding the sacrificial system. That of the Old Covenant being fulfilled by the once and for all sacrifice of the New Covenant in Christ Jesus our Lord. And the spiritual sacrifice of the saved themselves, in response to the gospel, during this New Covenant era.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Nothing about the Israelites sacrificial system had anything to do with superstition, but rather the revelation of the everlasting gospel in type and symbol until the antitype appeared. The Lamb of God, Christ Jesus our Lord. The fulfillment of biblical prophecy which each and every sacrifice was intended to represent and foretell. These teachings and practices of the Old Covenant did not turn into superstition by the establishment of the New Covenant. Rather it became fulfilled prophecy which still had great depth of meaning and revelation concerning the gospel. Providing excellent opportunity for instruction concerning the continuity of the everlasting gospel throughout our earth's history. God's people of the Old Covenant having exercised prophetic faith in the forgiveness of their sins by the sacrifice of the LAMB OF GOD, the Messiah of the Jews.  And those of the New Covenant accepting the reality of that sacrifice for them, in the life, crucifixion, and resurrection of Christ Jesus our Lord.

Chapter four becomes more specific in addressing what Mathetes deems to be superstition. Which includes teaching and practices concerning meats, Sabbaths, circumcision, new moons, observation of months and days, some for festivities and others for mourning. Referring to these Old covenant teachings and observances as not just superstition, but actual folly concerning authentic worship. All of these which were commanded to be observed by the very God Mathetes claimed to worship. As though God Himself instituted worthless, superstitious, folly to be observed by the people He Himself chose for a nation to be a witness among all the other nations of this earth. Perhaps Mathetes will expound upon the subject later in more depth, to the proper effect of the real folly concerning all such. In that they were never meant to be the means of salvation which so many of Israel often made them. Nor of course in many cases, meant to be observed by the multitudes of the saved from other nations during the New Covenant dispensation.

Nevertheless, these commanded teachings and observances established by God Himself for Israel never were and or will be mere worthless superstitions or folly. They had exact purpose, intent, value, and lessons of importance for those of the Old Covenant era, none of which has disappeared in this New Covenant era. The lessons and purposes are still there to be studied unto increased knowledge of God's guidance and providence for His people throughout history. As the New Testament writers themsleves expounded upon, rightly dividing the word of God under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit of God. As the Old Covenant prophets did as well. There is no folly at all in the teachings and observances of the Old Covenant, but by sinful humanity itself in attributing such to the cause of their salvation. Instead of observing that which God commanded and or commands because of their salvation in Him alone. Which problem exists to this very day, among professed Christianity. Being a natural inclination of our fallen natures, which must always be guarded against.

It is interesting to note that Mathetes makes a distinction between the Sabbaths of the "Jews" which he refers to as superstitions, and the weekly Sabbath day or days of the fourth commandment, which he apparently did not consider to be part of such superstitions. The Lightfoot & Harmer translation translates Mathetes reference to the Sabbaths which it is lawful to do good upon, as sabbath day, not days.

(from: _Apostolic Fathers_ Lightfoot & Harmer, 1891 translation)
4:3 And again to lie against God, as if He forbad us to do any good thing on the sabbath day, is not this profane?

Which testimony is itself a direct reference to the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ concerning God's weekly seventh day sabbath established at creation by His word , spoken by the mouth of God and written with His own finger for his chosen people twice among His Ten Commandments. Not the other sabbaths specific to the ceremony, holidays, and or agriculture of the nation of Israel. Those of the law written for them by the hand of Moses.

Mat 12:9 And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue: 10 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him. 11  And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? 12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days. 13 Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other. 14 Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.

Luk 6:6  And it came to pass also on another sabbath, that he entered into the synagogue and taught: and there was a man whose right hand was withered. 7 And the scribes and Pharisees watched him, whether he would heal on the sabbath day; that they might find an accusation against him. 8 But he knew their thoughts, and said to the man which had the withered hand, Rise up, and stand forth in the midst. And he arose and stood forth. 9 Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it ? 10 And looking round about upon them all, he said unto the man, Stretch forth thy hand. And he did so: and his hand was restored whole as the other.

Luk 14:1 And it came to pass, as he went into the house of one of the chief Pharisees to eat bread on the sabbath day, that they watched him. 2 And, behold, there was a certain man before him which had the dropsy. 3 And Jesus answering spake unto the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath day? 4 And they held their peace. And he took him, and healed him, and let him go; 5 And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day? 6 And they could not answer him again to these things.

If in fact God's seventh day Sabbath had been done away with by the early church, and replaced with a Sunday observance based upon the resurrection, these first two "Church Fathers" under examination address no such thing. Though many might choose to associate Mathetes reference to sabbaths of the Jews being among supposed superstitions which God Himself apparently instituted. His later reference to God's weekly seventh day Sabbath is problematic to such an idea though. In that he references our Lord's teaching regarding it, and the mistake which many Jews made in relation to it, without taking any opportunity to address any major changes concerning it. Even though changes and differences between the Jews and Christians was the exact context being discussed. In this Epistle exactly addressing the teachings of the early church, and its differences from the teachings and observances of the Jews.

If indeed Mathetes had already discontinued his observance of God's seventh day Sabbath, and firmly believed its observance to have been replaced by Sunday observance as the "Lord's day" in honor of the resurrection, it makes no sense for him to not address such. Neither in this Epistle at all, or even when the Sabbath itself was the exact topic being discussed, regarding the "mode of worshipping God prevalent among the Christians" in his day. Mathetes stated entire reason for this Epistle.

CHAP. VI.—THE RELATION OF CHRISTIANS TO THE WORLD.

To sum up all in one word—what the soul is in the body, that are Christians in the world. The soul is dispersed through all the members of the body, and Christians are scattered through all the cities of the world. The soul dwells in the body, yet is not of the body; and Christians dwell in the world, yet are not of the world. The invisible soul is guarded by the visible body, and Christians are known indeed to be in the world, but their godliness remains invisible. The flesh hates the soul, and wars against it, though itself suffering no injury, because it is prevented from enjoying pleasures; the world also hates the Christians, though in nowise injured, because they abjure pleasures. The soul loves the flesh that hates it, and [loves also] the members; Christians likewise love those that hate them. The soul is imprisoned in the body, yet preserves that very body; and Christians are confined in the world as in a prison, and yet they are the preservers of the world. The immortal soul dwells in a mortal tabernacle; and Christians dwell as sojourners in corruptible [bodies], looking for an incorruptible dwelling in the heavens. The soul, when but ill-provided with food and drink, becomes better; in like manner, the Christians, though subjected day by day to punishment, increase the more in number. God has assigned them this illustrious position, which it were unlawful for them to forsake.

Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, eds., "The Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 27.

In this sixth chapter of Mathetes we have the introduction of yet another ancient pagan concept and term. The immortal soul, or immortality of the soul. This term and or concept is found nowhere in holy scripture at all. To the contrary, souls are referred to as dying many times over in the scriptures.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

When God united His breath, or spirit with man, man became a living soul. A living soul is composed of body and spirit.

05397 hmvn n@shamah nesh-aw-maw'

from 05395; n f; {See TWOT on 1433 @@ '1433a'}

AV-breath 17, blast 3, spirit 2, inspiration 1, souls 1; 24

1) breath, spirit
1a) breath (of God)
1b) breath (of man)
1c) every breathing thing
1d) spirit (of man)

When one dies, their spirit goes back to God who gave it, at which point, one is no longer a living soul.  This is why humanity is not immortal, and must receive the same from God as a gift of salvation.

Eccl 12:5....... because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets: 6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

When the dust returns to the earth, and the spirit back to God who gave it, there is no longer a living soul. If the soul were immortal, then the scriptures would not speak of living, or dying souls. Of course a soul would be living if souls were immortal, and of course they would never be spoken of as dying if they were immortal either. So why do the scriptures apply both to the soul?

Ps 6:2 Have mercy upon me, O LORD; for I am weak: O LORD, heal me; for my bones are vexed. 3 My soul is also sore vexed: but thou, O LORD, how long? 4 Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake. 5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

In the above, David seeks to have himself, that is his soul delivered from death, because in the grave there is no remembrance of God, and he cannot give God thanks from the grave. How is this possible if the soul is immortal? If the soul were alive and in heaven with God surely it would be praising Him. Or if it were in hell, surely it would be cursing Him.

Ps 7:1 O LORD my God, in thee do I put my trust: save me from all them that persecute me, and deliver me: 2 Lest he tear my soul like a lion, rending it in pieces, while there is none to deliver. 3 O LORD my God, if I have done this; if there be iniquity in my hands; 4 If I have rewarded evil unto him that was at peace with me; (yea, I have delivered him that without cause is mine enemy:) 5 Let the enemy persecute my soul, and take it; yea, let him tread down my life upon the earth, and lay mine honour in the dust. Selah.

Again what sense do the above verses make if a soul is not a living person, rather than some floating entity that lives apart from the body? Can a soul be torn to pieces? Will it end when one's life does? Yes it will.

Ps 30:2 O LORD my God, I cried unto thee, and thou hast healed me. 3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.

How can a soul go to the grave? If it is immortal and goes to heaven or hell at death it should not be spoken of as dying and going to the grave. If on the other hand, it is a living being, then it could be said that ones soul goes to the grave when they die, it is its end. When life ends, it ends.

Ps 33:18 Behold, the eye of the LORD is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy; 19 To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine. 20 Our soul waiteth for the LORD: he is our help and our shield. 21 For our heart shall rejoice in him, because we have trusted in his holy name. 22 Let thy mercy, O LORD, be upon us, according as we hope in thee.

If our souls must be delivered from death, then they are not immortal. They are like us, they are us, when we are alive. When we are raised from the dead and given everlasting life, we will again be living souls.

Ps 40:13 Be pleased, O LORD, to deliver me: O LORD, make haste to help me. 14 Let them be ashamed and confounded together that seek after my soul to destroy it; let them be driven backward and put to shame that wish me evil.

Who can destroy a soul if it is immortal? It is not. When life ends, it ends, because when one is alive, they are a living soul.

Ps 49:12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish. 13 This their way is their folly: yet their posterity approve their sayings. Selah. 14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling. 15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.

Again the soul being associated with life, being redeemed from the grave. If it were immortal, this would not be so.

Ps 56:12 Thy vows are upon me, O God: I will render praises unto thee. 13 For thou hast delivered my soul from death: wilt not thou deliver my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living?

Again, when God delivers the soul from death, one can walk in the light of the living. Makes no sense if the soul is immortal.

Ps 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them. 50 He made a way to his anger; he spared not their soul from death, but gave their life over to the pestilence; 51 And smote all the firstborn in Egypt; the chief of their strength in the tabernacles of Ham:

God spared not the Egyptians souls from death, but killed them by the plagues. Their souls died, that is, they died. Obviously their souls were not immortal.

Ps 86:1 Bow down thine ear, O LORD, hear me: for I am poor and needy. 2 Preserve my soul; for I am holy: O thou my God, save thy servant that trusteth in thee. 3 Be merciful unto me, O Lord: for I cry unto thee daily.

Who needs their soul to be preserved if it is immortal?

Ps 89:47 Remember how short my time is: wherefore hast thou made all men in vain? 48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.

Again, why would a soul go to the grave at death if it is immortal and goes to heaven or hell at death? It is because the body goes into the grave at death, it is a dead soul, it is not living, because the body and the breath or spirit from God have separated.

Ps 116:7 Return unto thy rest, O my soul; for the LORD hath dealt bountifully with thee. 8 For thou hast delivered my soul from death, mine eyes from tears, and my feet from falling. 9 I will walk before the LORD in the land of the living.

Because his soul was delivered from death, he will walk before the Lord in the land of the living, he is a living soul.

Ps 119:174 I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight. 175 Let my soul live, and it shall praise thee; and let thy judgments help me. 176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.

Makes no sense if the soul is immortal.

Isa 38:16 O Lord, by these things men live, and in all these things is the life of my spirit: so wilt thou recover me, and make me to live. 17 Behold, for peace I had great bitterness: but thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption: for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back. 18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. 19 The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.

Because he was delivered from death, his soul was delivered from the pit of corruption, that is, the grave. The living, they are the ones who praise God. The dead cannot, because they are not living souls. All such nonsense if the soul is immortal.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

A prophecy concerning Christ. How can a soul be an offering? A sacrifice must die. If the soul is immortal, then it cannot be a sacrifice. Yet Christ poured out His soul unto death for our sins. He died the death we deserved, and when He did, He was no longer a living soul.

Ezek 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Is God a liar? If a soul is immortal it cannot die. God says the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ezek 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. 21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? 24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. 25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? 26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. 27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

Again, the soul is identified with the person. If the person lives, the soul lives. If the person dies, the soul dies. A soul is a living person with a body combined with the breath, or spirit from God.

Matt 10: 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

God will destroy both body and soul in hell. The soul is not immortal.

Matt 16: 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

How can one lose their soul, if their soul is immortal? Where could it go to get away from them.

Acts 2: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Christ was raised before His body saw corruption. Thus His soul was not left in hell, or the grave. He once again walked in the light of the living, that is, He became a living soul. This is our salvation. Our souls will not be left in the prison house of death, but we will once again be raised and receive the breath, or spirit of God in our spiritual bodies, and then we shall ever be with the Lord.

Acts 3: 22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Every soul that will not hear and accept Christ, will be destroyed.

1 Cor 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

No mistake about when it is that we receive immortality. It is at the last trump, when the dead are raised incorruptible, and immortal. None of the above makes sense if the soul is immortal.

Heb 10:38-39 38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

The soul needs saving, it is not immortal.

James 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

The soul needs to be saved from death, it is not immortal.

Rev 16: 3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

According to scripture then, souls can and do die. The souls of humans and animals do die. Souls therefore, are not immortal.

: Amo  Tue Dec 23, 2025 - 20:27:45In this sixth chapter of Mathetes we have the introduction of yet another ancient pagan concept and term. The immortal soul, or immortality of the soul. This term and or concept is found nowhere in holy scripture at all. To the contrary, souls are referred to as dying many times over in the scriptures.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

When God united His breath, or spirit with man, man became a living soul. A living soul is composed of body and spirit.

When one dies, their spirit goes back to God who gave it, at which point, one is no longer a living soul.  This is why humanity is not immortal, and must receive the same from God as a gift of salvation.

Eccl 12:5....... because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets: 6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

When the dust returns to the earth, and the spirit back to God who gave it, there is no longer a living soul. If the soul were immortal, then the scriptures would not speak of living, or dying souls. Of course a soul would be living if souls were immortal, and of course they would never be spoken of as dying if they were immortal either. So why do the scriptures apply both to the soul?

Ps 6:2 Have mercy upon me, O LORD; for I am weak: O LORD, heal me; for my bones are vexed. 3 My soul is also sore vexed: but thou, O LORD, how long? 4 Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake. 5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

In the above, David seeks to have himself, that is his soul delivered from death, because in the grave there is no remembrance of God, and he cannot give God thanks from the grave. How is this possible if the soul is immortal? If the soul were alive and in heaven with God surely it would be praising Him. Or if it were in hell, surely it would be cursing Him.

Ps 7:1 O LORD my God, in thee do I put my trust: save me from all them that persecute me, and deliver me: 2 Lest he tear my soul like a lion, rending it in pieces, while there is none to deliver. 3 O LORD my God, if I have done this; if there be iniquity in my hands; 4 If I have rewarded evil unto him that was at peace with me; (yea, I have delivered him that without cause is mine enemy:) 5 Let the enemy persecute my soul, and take it; yea, let him tread down my life upon the earth, and lay mine honour in the dust. Selah.

Again what sense do the above verses make if a soul is not a living person, rather than some floating entity that lives apart from the body? Can a soul be torn to pieces? Will it end when one's life does? Yes it will.

Ps 30:2 O LORD my God, I cried unto thee, and thou hast healed me. 3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.

How can a soul go to the grave? If it is immortal and goes to heaven or hell at death it should not be spoken of as dying and going to the grave. If on the other hand, it is a living being, then it could be said that ones soul goes to the grave when they die, it is its end. When life ends, it ends.

Ps 33:18 Behold, the eye of the LORD is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy; 19 To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine. 20 Our soul waiteth for the LORD: he is our help and our shield. 21 For our heart shall rejoice in him, because we have trusted in his holy name. 22 Let thy mercy, O LORD, be upon us, according as we hope in thee.

If our souls must be delivered from death, then they are not immortal. They are like us, they are us, when we are alive. When we are raised from the dead and given everlasting life, we will again be living souls.

Ps 40:13 Be pleased, O LORD, to deliver me: O LORD, make haste to help me. 14 Let them be ashamed and confounded together that seek after my soul to destroy it; let them be driven backward and put to shame that wish me evil.

Who can destroy a soul if it is immortal? It is not. When life ends, it ends, because when one is alive, they are a living soul.

Ps 49:12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish. 13 This their way is their folly: yet their posterity approve their sayings. Selah. 14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling. 15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.

Again the soul being associated with life, being redeemed from the grave. If it were immortal, this would not be so.

Ps 56:12 Thy vows are upon me, O God: I will render praises unto thee. 13 For thou hast delivered my soul from death: wilt not thou deliver my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living?

Again, when God delivers the soul from death, one can walk in the light of the living. Makes no sense if the soul is immortal.

Ps 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them. 50 He made a way to his anger; he spared not their soul from death, but gave their life over to the pestilence; 51 And smote all the firstborn in Egypt; the chief of their strength in the tabernacles of Ham:

God spared not the Egyptians souls from death, but killed them by the plagues. Their souls died, that is, they died. Obviously their souls were not immortal.

Ps 86:1 Bow down thine ear, O LORD, hear me: for I am poor and needy. 2 Preserve my soul; for I am holy: O thou my God, save thy servant that trusteth in thee. 3 Be merciful unto me, O Lord: for I cry unto thee daily.

Who needs their soul to be preserved if it is immortal?

Ps 89:47 Remember how short my time is: wherefore hast thou made all men in vain? 48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.

Again, why would a soul go to the grave at death if it is immortal and goes to heaven or hell at death? It is because the body goes into the grave at death, it is a dead soul, it is not living, because the body and the breath or spirit from God have separated.

Ps 116:7 Return unto thy rest, O my soul; for the LORD hath dealt bountifully with thee. 8 For thou hast delivered my soul from death, mine eyes from tears, and my feet from falling. 9 I will walk before the LORD in the land of the living.

Because his soul was delivered from death, he will walk before the Lord in the land of the living, he is a living soul.

Ps 119:174 I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight. 175 Let my soul live, and it shall praise thee; and let thy judgments help me. 176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.

Makes no sense if the soul is immortal.

Isa 38:16 O Lord, by these things men live, and in all these things is the life of my spirit: so wilt thou recover me, and make me to live. 17 Behold, for peace I had great bitterness: but thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption: for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back. 18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. 19 The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.

Because he was delivered from death, his soul was delivered from the pit of corruption, that is, the grave. The living, they are the ones who praise God. The dead cannot, because they are not living souls. All such nonsense if the soul is immortal.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

A prophecy concerning Christ. How can a soul be an offering? A sacrifice must die. If the soul is immortal, then it cannot be a sacrifice. Yet Christ poured out His soul unto death for our sins. He died the death we deserved, and when He did, He was no longer a living soul.

Ezek 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Is God a liar? If a soul is immortal it cannot die. God says the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ezek 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. 21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? 24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. 25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? 26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. 27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

Again, the soul is identified with the person. If the person lives, the soul lives. If the person dies, the soul dies. A soul is a living person with a body combined with the breath, or spirit from God.

Matt 10: 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

God will destroy both body and soul in hell. The soul is not immortal.

Matt 16: 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

How can one lose their soul, if their soul is immortal? Where could it go to get away from them.

Acts 2: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Christ was raised before His body saw corruption. Thus His soul was not left in hell, or the grave. He once again walked in the light of the living, that is, He became a living soul. This is our salvation. Our souls will not be left in the prison house of death, but we will once again be raised and receive the breath, or spirit of God in our spiritual bodies, and then we shall ever be with the Lord.

Acts 3: 22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Every soul that will not hear and accept Christ, will be destroyed.

1 Cor 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

No mistake about when it is that we receive immortality. It is at the last trump, when the dead are raised incorruptible, and immortal. None of the above makes sense if the soul is immortal.

Heb 10:38-39 38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

The soul needs saving, it is not immortal.

James 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

The soul needs to be saved from death, it is not immortal.

Rev 16: 3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

According to scripture then, souls can and do die. The souls of humans and animals do die. Souls therefore, are not immortal.

There is no indication that the soul will be saved.  It is the spirit that remains after death. When Jesus returns, the departed spirits will stand before God, those who have done good will continue to live, those who have done bad will suffer the second death (John 5:29; Rev 21:8). I believe those that suffer the second death will cease to exist.  I think all the weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matt 25:30; etc.) of those who will suffer the second death will occur in that interim period between physical death and the second coming when those who will suffer the second death realize that they could have received the gift of eternal life but rejected it (Luke 13:28). 

Perhaps that is just me, but that is what I believe.

: 4WD  Wed Dec 24, 2025 - 05:20:12There is no indication that the soul will be saved.  It is the spirit that remains after death. When Jesus returns, the departed spirits will stand before God, those who have done good will continue to live, those who have done bad will suffer the second death (John 5:29; Rev 21:8). I believe those that suffer the second death will cease to exist.  I think all the weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matt 25:30; etc.) of those who will suffer the second death will occur in that interim period between physical death and the second coming when those who will suffer the second death realize that they could have received the gift of eternal life but rejected it (Luke 13:28). 

Perhaps that is just me, but that is what I believe.

Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Num 15:27 And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering. 28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him. 29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them. 30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.31 Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.

Psa 34:21 Evil shall slay the wicked: and they that hate the righteous shall be desolate.22 The LORD redeemeth the soul of his servants: and none of them that trust in him shall be desolate.

Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Apart from the above, there are hundreds of bible verses which speak of the soul as the individual themselves. You are of course free to believe whatever you wish.

CHAP. VII.—THE MANIFESTATION OF CHRIST.

For, as I said, this was no mere earthly invention which was delivered to them, nor is it a mere human system of opinion, which they judge it right to preserve so carefully, nor has a dispensation of mere human mysteries been committed to them, but truly God Himself, who is almighty, the Creator of all things, and invisible, has sent from heaven, and placed among men, [Him who is] the truth, and the holy and incomprehensible Word, and has firmly established Him in their hearts. He did not, as one might have imagined, send to men any servant, or angel, or ruler, or any one of those who bear sway over earthly things, or one of those to whom the government of things in the heavens has been entrusted, but the very Creator and Fashioner of all things—by whom He made the heavens—by whom he enclosed the sea within its proper bounds—whose ordinances all the stars faithfully observe—from whom the sun has received the measure of his daily course to be observed—whom the moon obeys, being commanded to shine in the night, and whom the stars also obey, following the moon in her course; by whom all things have been arranged, and placed within their proper limits, and to whom all are subject—the heavens and the things that are therein, the earth and the things that are therein, the sea and the things that are therein—fire, air, and the abyss—the things which are in the heights, the things which are in the depths, and the things which lie between. This [messenger] He sent to them. Was it then, as one might conceive, for the purpose of exercising tyranny, or of inspiring fear and terror? By no means, but under the influence of clemency and meekness. As a king sends his son, who is also a king, so sent He Him; as God He sent Him; as to men He sent Him; as a Saviour He sent Him, and as seeking to persuade, not to compel us; for violence has no place in the character of God. As calling us He sent Him, not as vengefully pursuing us; as loving us He sent Him, not as judging us. For He will yet send Him to judge us, and who shall endure His appearing? ... Do you not see them exposed to wild beasts, that they may be persuaded to deny the Lord, and yet not overcome? Do you not see that the more of them are punished, the greater becomes the number of the rest? This does not seem to be the work of man: this is the power of God; these are the evidences of His manifestation.


Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, eds., "The Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 27–28.

From the above we may ascertain, that imperial mandated "Christianity", was not yet conceived or considered acceptable at the time. If it was, this document thus far, gives the idea no credence. Still maintaining and practicing the teaching and example of our Lord Jesus Christ and His chosen Apostles. Amen.

CHAP. VIII.—THE MISERABLE STATE OF MEN BEFORE THE COMING OF THE WORD.

For, who of men at all understood before His coming what God is? Do you accept of the vain and silly doctrines of those who are deemed trustworthy philosophers? of whom some said that fire was God, calling that God to which they themselves were by and by to come; and some water; and others some other of the elements formed by God. But if any one of these theories be worthy of approbation, every one of the rest of created things might also be declared to be God. But such declarations are simply the startling and erroneous utterances of deceivers; and no man has either seen Him, or made Him known, but He has revealed Himself. And He has manifested Himself through faith, to which alone it is given to behold God. For God, the Lord and Fashioner of all things, who made all things, and assigned them their several positions, proved Himself not merely a friend of mankind, but also long-suffering [in His dealings with them.] Yea, He was always of such a character, and still is, and will ever be, kind and good, and free from wrath, and true, and the only one who is [absolutely] good; and He formed in His mind a great and unspeakable conception, which He communicated to His Son alone. As long, then, as He held and preserved His own wise counsel in concealment, He appeared to neglect us, and to have no care over us. But after He revealed and laid open, through His beloved Son, the things which had been prepared from the beginning, He conferred every blessing all at once upon us, so that we should both share in His benefits, and see and be active [in His service]. Who of us would ever have expected these things? He was aware, then, of all things in His own mind, along with His Son, according to the relation subsisting between them.


Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, eds., "The Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 28.

What can be said about the above testimony? It completely bypasses the entire recorded history of the Old Testament. Which was exactly about revealing and maintaining a knowledge of God in this world, and His great mercy towards His chosen people and all of humanity thereby as well. While also maintaining the high divine standards of morality and justice. Once again, not only missing an excellent opportunity to reveal the most ancient nature and continuation of God's mercy and everlasting covenant with all of willing humanity throughout our history, but seeming to suggest there was no such thing.

Perhaps the writer thought to express sentiments related by the Apostle Paul in the following -

1Co 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Eph 3:9  And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

None of these statements by Paul though, were in neglect and or denial of the history of divine revelation between God and humanity. Or certainly, that of divine revelation to His chosen people Israel via Moses and all the prophets. Which thus far, this writer has either ignored or relinquished to the realms of superstition or folly, while supposedly expounding upon authentic Christianity. Which is the New Covenant era of the everlasting covenant and gospel, established in the Garden of Eden immediately after the fall of humanity for our salvation. Continuing from that time forward to the present by way of special revelation from God, through His chosen people concerning the entire history of this world to its end. The only original, true, and authentically God revealed religion of this world.

Perhaps the author will address this most important point later.

: Amo  Wed Dec 24, 2025 - 10:37:20Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Num 15:27 And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering. 28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him. 29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them. 30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.31 Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.

Psa 34:21 Evil shall slay the wicked: and they that hate the righteous shall be desolate.22 The LORD redeemeth the soul of his servants: and none of them that trust in him shall be desolate.

Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Apart from the above, there are hundreds of bible verses which speak of the soul as the individual themselves. You are of course free to believe whatever you wish.

In both the OT and the NT when speaking about human beings, the words "soul" and "spirit" are very often used interchangeably even though they are not strictly the same.  And there is no indication in either the OT nor the NT that the body of flesh and blood will be saved.  Only the spirit of a man continues on after physical death.

: Amo  Sun Dec 21, 2025 - 13:51:35I had started this topic on the last boards I was posting in. Before they locked it and others down, and removed me from membership. I think it is worthy of time and consideration, and so will restart it here with continuing posts upon the subject. Please do contribute as you wish.

The above quote is one of the reasons I consider the writings of the "Church Fathers" to be inferior to holy scripture. This early on, Clement is already introducing pagan mythology into the mix, to be considered regarding the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ and his faithful followers.

Phoenix | Egyptian, Greek & Roman | Britannica

Quoted article below from link above.

So, here we have in the writings of Clement, the introduction of pagan sun worshiping mythology. A trend that would only increase over time unto the formation of the first mandated form of "Christianity" for the Roman Empire. One heavily influenced and established by professed converted sun worshipping Emperors, and a mass of pagan sun worshippers brought into the "Church" via imperial mandate over and above gospel believing conviction and conversion.

Why would anyone consider the writings of the "church fathers" to be scriptural?  They are no better nor worse that the writings in today's commentaries. Some are good, some are not good.

: 4WD  Fri Dec 26, 2025 - 05:07:53In both the OT and the NT when speaking about human beings, the words "soul" and "spirit" are very often used interchangeably even though they are not strictly the same.  And there is no indication in either the OT nor the NT that the body of flesh and blood will be saved.  Only the spirit of a man continues on after physical death.

Now we know what 4WD believes and says. Please use and demonstrate your above thoughts from Holy Scripture. As we are examining the writings of the "Fathers" in relation to them, let us also establish our own views by them. Thank you.

If you are going to say that spirit and soul are the same, then one must logically conclude that spirits die, just like scripture plainly and repetitively teaches and states regarding the soul. So body, spirit, and soul can and do die. Nevertheless, when one dies, the spirit returns to God who gave it unto a living soul.

Ecc 12:1 Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them; 2 While the sun, or the light, or the moon, or the stars, be not darkened, nor the clouds return after the rain: 3 In the day when the keepers of the house shall tremble, and the strong men shall bow themselves, and the grinders cease because they are few, and those that look out of the windows be darkened, 4 And the doors shall be shut in the streets, when the sound of the grinding is low, and he shall rise up at the voice of the bird, and all the daughters of musick shall be brought low; 5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets: 6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Psa 146:1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise the LORD, O my soul. 2 While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being. 3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. 4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Psa 6:4 Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake. 5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. 7 Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works. 8 Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment. 9 Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun. 10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Obviously, all of the above cannot be true, if spirits departing from living souls are conscious, thinking, reasoning, and feeling entities.

: 4WD  Fri Dec 26, 2025 - 05:14:58Why would anyone consider the writings of the "church fathers" to be scriptural?  They are no better nor worse that the writings in today's commentaries. Some are good, some are not good.

As no doubt, most of them claimed to believe scripture, I am examining whether their writings are actually based upon scriptural teaching or not. Pointing of course, to the greater and more trustworthy testimony of Holy Scripture over and above their writings. Rightly judging their writings by Holy Scripture, and not the other way around.

I was not and am not actually asking anyone if they think their writings were scriptural or not, simply examining the issue and giving my conclusion regarding such. While inviting others to give their views as well, or even contest my conclusions for discussion and or debate.

CHAP. IX.—WHY THE SON WAS SENT SO LATE.

As long then as the former time endured, He permitted us to be borne along by unruly impulses, being drawn away by the desire of pleasure and various lusts. This was not that He at all delighted in our sins, but that He simply endured them; nor that He approved the time of working iniquity which then was, but that He sought to form a mind conscious of righteousness, so that being convinced in that time of our unworthiness of attaining life through our own works, it should now, through the kindness of God, be vouchsafed to us; and having made it manifest that in ourselves we were unable to enter into the kingdom of God, we might through the power of God be made able. But when our wickedness had reached its height, and it had been clearly shown that its reward, punishment and death, was impending over us; and when the time had come which God had before appointed for manifesting His own kindness and power, how the one love of God, through exceeding regard for men, did not regard us with hatred, nor thrust us away, nor remember our iniquity against us, but showed great long-suffering, and bore with us, He Himself took on Him the burden of our iniquities, He gave His own Son as a ransom for us, the holy One for transgressors, the blameless One for the wicked, the righteous One for the unrighteous, the incorruptible One for the corruptible, the immortal One for them that are mortal. For what other thing was capable of covering our sins than His righteousness? By what other one was it possible that we, the wicked and ungodly, could be justified, than by the only Son of God? O sweet exchange! O unsearchable operation! O benefits surpassing all expectation! that the wickedness of many should be hid in a single righteous One, and that the righteousness of One should justify many transgressors! Having therefore convinced us in the former time that our nature was unable to attain to life, and having now revealed the Saviour who is able to save even those things which it was [formerly] impossible to save, by both these facts He desired to lead us to trust in His kindness, to esteem Him our Nourisher, Father, Teacher, Counsellor, Healer, our Wisdom, Light, Honour, Glory, Power, and Life, so that we should not be anxious concerning clothing and food.


Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, eds., "The Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 28.

While the above chapter does address or reference teachings apparently, from former times which convinced us "that our nature was unable to attain to life", it leaves Old covenant and or testament teaching out of the picture. Therefore also of course, the history of Israel and or reference to the Jews. Further evidence that this claimed church father, is intent upon the task of distancing himself and or the church from the Jews, in his epistle under examination. Though we have a few more chapters from which he might change this seemingly apparent motive up to this point.

Apart from this, I would address only the term applied by the writer concerning the covering of our sins by Christ's righteousness. The everlasting gospel of Jesus Christ established in the testimonies of both the Old and New testament scriptures, are not about our sins being covered by the Savior, but rather thoroughly cleansed and washed away. As in they are no more. This by our Lord and Savior among the believing, and willingly submissive followers of His way of the cross.

Zec 3:1  And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. 2  And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? 3  Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel. 4  And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment. 5  And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by. 6  And the angel of the LORD protested unto Joshua, saying, 7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by. 8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH. 9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

Ezk 36:22  Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. 23  And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. 24  For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25  Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26  A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27  And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28  And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Psa 51:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba. Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. 2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. 3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. 4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. 5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. 6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. 7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. 8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. 9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. 13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee. 14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness. 15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.

1Co 6:9  Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10  Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11  And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Rev 1:4  John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5  And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

CHAP. X.—THE BLESSINGS THAT WILL FLOW FROM FAITH.

If you also desire [to possess] this faith, you likewise shall receive first of all the knowledge of the Father. For God has loved mankind, on whose account He made the world, to whom He rendered subject all the things that are in it, to whom He gave reason and understanding, to whom alone He imparted the privilege of looking upwards to Himself, whom He formed after His own image, to whom He sent His only-begotten Son, to whom He has promised a kingdom in heaven, and will give it to those who have loved Him. And when you have attained this knowledge, with what joy do you think you will be filled? Or, how will you love Him who has first so loved you? And if you love Him, you will be an imitator of His kindness. And do not wonder that a man may become an imitator of God. He can, if he is willing. For it is not by ruling over his neighbours, or by seeking to hold the supremacy over those that are weaker, or by being rich, and showing violence towards those that are inferior, that happiness is found; nor can any one by these things become an imitator of God. But these things do not at all constitute His majesty. On the contrary he who takes upon himself the burden of his neighbour; he who, in whatsoever respect he may be superior, is ready to benefit another who is deficient; he who, whatsoever things he has received from God, by distributing these to the needy, becomes a god to those who receive [his benefits]: he is an imitator of God. Then thou shalt see, while still on earth, that God in the heavens rules over [the universe]; then thou shall begin to speak the mysteries of God; then shalt thou both love and admire those that suffer punishment because they will not deny God; then shall thou condemn the deceit and error of the world when thou shall know what it is to live truly in heaven, when thou shalt despise that which is here esteemed to be death, when thou shalt fear what is truly death, which is reserved for those who shall be condemned to the eternal fire, which shall afflict those even to the end that are committed to it. Then shalt thou admire those who for righteousness' sake endure the fire that is but for a moment, and shalt count them happy when thou shalt know [the nature of] that fire.

Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, eds., "The Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 29.

Mathetes once again refers to a knowledge to be gained regarding several things taught and revealed in the Old Testament, without mentioning it or the people God used to preserve its place in this world, of course. To be fair though, he does not make much use or reference to either Old or New Testament holy scripture.

Interestingly, he refers to eternal fire, in connection with the end of those committed to it. As though, even though earlier he referred to the soul as immortal, he is not necessarily convinced of or adheres to any doctrine concerning eternal punishment in hell. Not that any actual doctrine concerning the subject can be deduced to have been believed or taught by him, according to this one somewhat vague statement. A more direct statement or address would be necessary to establish such.

CHAP. XI.—THESE THINGS ARE WORTHY TO BE KNOWN AND BELIEVED.

I do not speak of things strange to me, nor do I aim at anything inconsistent with right reason; but having been a disciple of the Apostles, I am become a teacher of the Gentiles. I minister the things delivered to me to those that are disciples worthy of the truth. For who that is rightly taught and begotten by the loving Word, would not seek to learn accurately the things which have been clearly shown by the Word to His disciples, to whom the Word being manifested has revealed them, speaking plainly [to them], not understood indeed by the unbelieving, but conversing with the disciples, who, being esteemed faithful by Him, acquired a knowledge of the mysteries of the Father? For which reason He sent the Word, that He might be manifested to the world; and He, being despised by the people [of the Jews], was, when preached by the Apostles, believed on by the Gentiles. This is He who was from the beginning, who appeared as if new, and was found old, and yet who is ever born afresh in the hearts of the saints. This is He who, being from everlasting, is to-day called the Son; through whom the Church is enriched, and grace, widely spread, increases in the saints, furnishing understanding, revealing mysteries, announcing times, rejoicing over the faithful, giving to those that seek, by whom the limits of faith are not broken through, nor the boundaries set by the fathers passed over. Then the fear of the law is chanted, and the grace of the prophets is known, and the faith of the gospels is established, and the tradition of the Apostles is preserved, and the grace of the Church exults; which grace if you grieve not, you shall know those things which the Word teaches, by whom He wills, and when He pleases. For whatever things we are moved to utter by the will of the Word commanding us, we communicate to you with pains, and from a love of the things that have been revealed to us.

Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, eds., "The Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 29.

Once again, while making honorable mention of the Father, the Word, His disciples, Apostles, prophets, gospels, teachings, tradition, the law, and grace, Mathetes quotes no scripture or even suggests an examination of them in order to understand what Christians of his day believe and or practice. No reference to the Old Testament of course, as he relinquished much of them to the rank of superstition and or folly, and no quotes from and or advice to examine any of the writings of the Apostles which should have been prevalent at the time. Perhaps as a declared teacher of the gentiles, he didn't want to encourage the study of the actual words of the Jews who wrote the Old testament, or the vast majority of the New Testament as well. Setting a precedence perhaps, of church tradition equal to and or above scripture itself in the near future. As traditional and ever more political "Christianity" arose to a place of more prominence in and of this world, than authentic scripturally based and evangelical Christianity. Which was ever non political, and a more conviction based and personally chosen faith.

Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. 5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; 6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. 7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Mrk 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. 7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. 10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: 11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. 12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; 13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Col 2:6  As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

CHAP. XII.—THE IMPORTANCE OF KNOWLEDGE TO TRUE SPIRITUAL LIFE.

When you have read and carefully listened to these things, you shall know what God bestows on such as rightly love Him, being made [as ye are] a paradise of delight, presenting in yourselves a tree bearing all kinds of produce and flourishing well, being adorned with various fruits. For in this place the tree of knowledge and the tree of life have been planted; but it is not the tree of knowledge that destroys—it is disobedience that proves destructive. Nor truly are those words without significance which are written, how God from the beginning planted the tree of life in the midst of paradise, revealing through knowledge the way to life, and when those who were first formed did not use this [knowledge] properly, they were, through the fraud of the Serpent, stripped naked. For neither can life exist without knowledge, nor is knowledge secure without life. Wherefore both were planted close together. The Apostle, perceiving the force [of this conjunction], and blaming that knowledge which, without true doctrine, is admitted to influence life, declares, "Knowledge puffeth up, but love edifieth." For he who thinks he knows anything without true knowledge, and such as is witnessed to by life, knows nothing, but is deceived by the Serpent, as not loving life. But he who combines knowledge with fear, and seeks after life, plants in hope, looking for fruit. Let your heart be your wisdom; and let your life be true knowledge inwardly received. Bearing this tree and displaying its fruit, thou shalt always gather in those things which are desired by God, which the Serpent cannot reach, and to which deception does not approach; nor is Eve then corrupted, but is trusted as a virgin; and salvation is manifested, and the Apostles are filled with understanding, and the Passover of the Lord advances, and the choirs are gathered together, and are arranged in proper order, and the Word rejoices in teaching the saints,—by whom the Father is glorified: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, eds., "The Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 29–30.

This last chapter seems to be as vague and or generic, as the others which preceded it. Though we finally have one short sentence of scripture quoted, it is surrounded by what I can only describe as gobbledygook, concerning apparently the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Though the evil part is left out by the author. Which the author relates as though someone unfamiliar with holy scripture and the account of the fall of humanity in Genesis, would have any idea of what they were talking about.

The main problem with this Epistle as I see it, is it's complete lack of scriptural reference or authority. While it begins as an address to explain Christianity to one who is apparently ignorant of the same, it is void of reference to holy scripture, and or the prominent place and authority of them which is paramount to the Christian faith. As already stated, relinquishing much of the Old Testament scriptures to the ranks of superstition and folly, it never seems to attempt to establish the writings of the Apostles as authoritative either. Leaning apparently upon the authors own authority or knowledge regarding them, to be considered as such by the reader as well.

It almost seems as though it was written to one who was already very familiar with holy scripture, and therefore needed no reference to it, in order to understand where the author came up with the truths he was promulgating. Which seems to be at odds with the opening statement of the Epistle itself, to the effect that it was addressing one who did not know the "mode of worshipping God prevalent among the Christians, and inquiring very carefully and earnestly concerning them, what God they trust in, and what form of religion they observe". In any case, the Epistle does not as I see it, properly seek to establish the significance and authority of holy scripture to or within authentic Christian faith.

Nor as already stated, does it address at all the significance of the fairly new establishment of a Sunday sacredness, which many claim was prevalent among the early Christians. While it did address sabbaths of the Jews which the author considered superstitious in nature, and the seventh day Sabbath of the Lord. This ends my examination of Mathetes. I will move on to EPISTLE OF POLYCARP TO THE PHILIPPIANS next.

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

: Amo  Sun Dec 21, 2025 - 13:51:35I had started this topic on the last boards I was posting in. Before they locked it and others down, and removed me from membership. I think it is worthy of time and consideration, and so will restart it here with continuing posts upon the subject. Please do contribute as you wish.

The above quote is one of the reasons I consider the writings of the "Church Fathers" to be inferior to holy scripture. This early on, Clement is already introducing pagan mythology into the mix, to be considered regarding the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ and his faithful followers.

Phoenix | Egyptian, Greek & Roman | Britannica

Quoted article below from link above.

So, here we have in the writings of Clement, the introduction of pagan sun worshiping mythology. A trend that would only increase over time unto the formation of the first mandated form of "Christianity" for the Roman Empire. One heavily influenced and established by professed converted sun worshipping Emperors, and a mass of pagan sun worshippers brought into the "Church" via imperial mandate over and above gospel believing conviction and conversion.

I find the highlighted portion somewhat puzzling since you spend a lot of time trying to defend the writings of Ellen G. White.  Would she not be placed in a category such as the one you are referring to?  Not nearly as early, but still in the same category?

: Cobalt1959  Wed Jan 07, 2026 - 23:36:31I find the highlighted portion somewhat puzzling since you spend a lot of time trying to defend the writings of Ellen G. White.  Would she not be placed in a category such as the one you are referring to?  Not nearly as early, but still in the same category?

First and foremost of course, she is not nor has ever been considered a Church Father. Secondly, I only defend her positions, when others question and or attack them. Even when responding to such, support of the Holy Scriptures themselves or not, is what I examine in relation to them. Just as I am examining on this thread in relation to the suggested Church Fathers. Therefore also yes, the writings of EGW and all else should be judged by the testimonies of Holy Scriptures, as authentic divinely inspired truth, or not. Please do judge her writings and all others by the highest standards of Holy Scripture. As she herself admonished all to do as well, many times over.

Emphasis in the following quotes is mine.

Christian Education (1893, 1894), page 120, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: The Value of Bible Study.

We should not allow any argument of man's to turn us away from a thorough investigation of Bible truth. The opinions and customs of men are not to be received as of divine authority. God has revealed in his word what is the whole duty of man, and we are not to be swayed from the great standard of righteousness. He sent his only begotten Son to be our example, and bade us to hear and to follow him. We must not be influenced from the truth as it is in Jesus, because great and professedly good men urge their ideas above the plain statements of the word of God.

Education (1903), page 17, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: Source and Aim of True Education

The Holy Scriptures are the perfect standard of truth, and as such should be given the highest place in education. To obtain an education worthy of the name, we must receive a knowledge of God, the Creator, and of Christ, the Redeemer, as they are revealed in the sacred word.

The Faith I Live By (1958), page 13, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: The Word and Works of God

In His Word, God has committed to men the knowledge necessary for salvation. The Holy Scriptures are to be accepted as an authoritative, infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the revealer of doctrines, and the test of experience.

Gospel Workers (1915), page 250, paragraph 4
Chapter Title: Helps in Gospel Work

The word of God is the standard of character. In giving us this word, God has put us in possession of every truth essential to salvation. Thousands have drawn water from these wells of life, yet there is no diminishing of the supply. Thousands have set the Lord before them, and by beholding have become changed into the same image. But these searchers have not exhausted these grand and holy themes. Thousands more may engage in the work of searching out the mysteries of salvation.

In Heavenly Places (1967), page 133, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: The Great Standard of Right and Wrong

In the Word of God is contained everything essential to the perfecting of the man of God. It is like a treasure house, full of valuable and precious stores, but we do not appreciate its riches nor realize the necessity of equipping ourselves with the treasures of truth. We do not realize the great necessity of searching the Scriptures for ourselves. Many neglect the study of the Word of God in order to pursue some worldly interest or to indulge in some trifling pleasure. . . . Oh, we might better put off anything of an earthly character than the investigation of the Word of God, which is able to make us wise unto life eternal. "Given by inspiration of God," . . . the Book of books has the highest claims to our reverent attention. . . .

Mind, Character, and Personality Volume 1 (1977), page 323, paragraph 5
Chapter Title: Conscience

Take your conscience to the Word of God and see if your life and character are in accordance with the standard of righteousness which God has there revealed. You can then determine whether or not you have an intelligent faith and what manner of conscience is yours. The conscience of man cannot be trusted unless it is under the influence of divine grace. Satan takes advantage of an unenlightened conscience, and thereby leads men into all manner of delusions, because they have not made the Word of God their counselor. Many have invented a gospel of their own in the same manner as they have substituted a law of their own for God's law.--RH, Sept 3, 1901.

Mind, Character, and Personality Volume 2 (1977), page 699, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: Pseudoscience[SEE CHAPTER 3, "DANGERS IN PSYCHOLOGY."]

That Which Contradicts God's Word Is Guesswork. --He who has a knowledge of God and His word has a settled faith in the divinity of the Holy Scriptures. He does not test the Bible by man's ideas of science. He brings these ideas to the test of the unerring standard. He knows that God's word is truth, and truth can never contradict itself; whatever in the teaching of so-called science contradicts the truth of God's revelation is mere human guesswork.--8T 325 (1904).

The Review and Herald, June 11, 1908, paragraph 2
Article Title: What the Word of God Is to UsMrs. E. G. White

The Bible is the great standard of right and wrong, clearly defining sin and holiness. Its living principles, running through our lives like threads of gold, are our only safeguard in trial and temptation.

As is almost always the case, I have not brought up the subject of EGW. Nor do I appeal to her writings as authoritative for those I know do not believe some or many of her views. If our views align with the teachings of Holy Scripture, they are correct. If they do not, they are not. Easy peasy.

: Amo  Wed Dec 24, 2025 - 10:37:20Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Num 15:27 And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering. 28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him. 29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them. 30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.31 Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.

Psa 34:21 Evil shall slay the wicked: and they that hate the righteous shall be desolate.22 The LORD redeemeth the soul of his servants: and none of them that trust in him shall be desolate.

Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Apart from the above, there are hundreds of bible verses which speak of the soul as the individual themselves. You are of course free to believe whatever you wish.

There's several meanings for "soul" in the Bible.

In ALL of these verses, the one that makes most sense is simply "people" or "a person."

The special meaning of the word, referring to a specific part of us, isn't in view here.  It's really only Paul who uses the word that way.

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Fri Jan 09, 2026 - 12:00:29There's several meanings for "soul" in the Bible.

In ALL of these verses, the one that makes most sense is simply "people" or "a person."

The special meaning of the word, referring to a specific part of us, isn't in view here.  It's really only Paul who uses the word that way.

Is that special meaning defined in scripture, or is it extra biblical?

All emphasis in the following quoted Epistle, and those addressed in later posts examining the same, is mine.

THE EPISTLE OF POLYCARP TO THE PHILIPPIANS

POLYCARP, and the presbyters with him, to the Church of God sojourning at Philippi: Mercy to you, and peace from God Almighty, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, our Saviour, be multiplied.

CHAP. I.—PRAISE OF THE PHILIPPIANS.

I have greatly rejoiced with you in our Lord Jesus Christ, because ye have followed the example of true love [as displayed by God], and have accompanied, as became you, those who were bound in chains, the fitting ornaments of saints, and which are indeed the diadems of the true elect of God and our Lord; and because the strong root of your faith, spoken of in days long gone by, endureth even until now, and bringeth forth fruit to our Lord Jesus Christ, who for our sins suffered even unto death, [but] "whom God raised from the dead, having loosed the bands of the grave." "In whom, though now ye see Him not, ye believe, and believing, rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory;" into which joy many desire to enter, knowing that "by grace ye are saved, not of works," but by the will of God through Jesus Christ.

CHAP. II.—AN EXHORTATION TO VIRTUE.

"Wherefore, girding up your loins," "serve the Lord in fear" and truth, as those who have forsaken the vain, empty talk and error of the multitude, and "believed in Him who raised up our Lord Jesus Christ from the dead, and gave Him glory," and a throne at His right hand. To Him all things in heaven and on earth are subject. Him every spirit serves. He comes as the Judge of the living and the dead. His blood will God require of those who do not believe in Him. But He who raised Him up from the dead will raise up us also, if we do His will, and walk in His commandments, and love what He loved, keeping ourselves from all unrighteousness, covetousness, love of money, evil speaking, falsewitness; "not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing," or blow for blow, or cursing for cursing, but being mindful of what the Lord said in His teaching: "Judge not, that ye be not judged; forgive, and it shall be forgiven unto you; be merciful, that ye may obtain mercy; with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again; and once more, "Blessed are the poor, and those that are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of God."

CHAP. III.—EXPRESSIONS OF PERSONAL UNWORTHINESS.


These things, brethren, I write to you concerning righteousness, not because I take anything upon myself, but because ye have invited me to do so. For neither I, nor any other such one, can come up to the wisdom of the blessed and glorified Paul. He, when among you, accurately and stedfastly taught the word of truth in the presence of those who were then alive. And when absent from you, he wrote you a letter, which, if you carefully study, you will find to be the means of building you up in that faith which has been given you, and which, being followed by hope, and preceded by love towards God, and Christ, and our neighbour, "is the mother of us all." For if any one be inwardly possessed of these graces, he hath fulfilled the command of righteousness, since he that hath love is far from all sin.

CHAP. IV.—VARIOUS EXHORTATIONS.

"But the love of money is the root of all evils." Knowing, therefore, that "as we brought nothing into the world, so we can carry nothing out,"2 let us arm ourselves with the armour of righteousness; and let us teach, first of all, ourselves to walk in the commandments of the Lord. Next, [teach] your wives [to walk] in the faith given to them, and in love and purity tenderly loving their own husbands in all truth, and loving all [others] equally in all chastity; and to train up their children in the knowledge and fear of God. Teach the widows to be discreet as respects the faith of the Lord, praying continually for all, being far from all slandering, evil-speaking, false-witnessing, love of money, and every kind of evil; knowing that they are the altar of God, that He clearly perceives all things, and that nothing is hid from Him, neither reasonings, nor reflections, nor any one of the secret things of the heart.

Polycarp of Smryna, "The Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 33–34.

This Epistle immediately differentiates itself from that of Mathetes, as most of that which is written is either a direct quote of scripture, or reference to them. This man is very familiar with the scriptures, or at the very least, the writings of Paul.

As a point of interest, chapter three brings a new or different concept to our attention, apart from scriptural testimony, that I know of in any case. In referring to the faith of Paul or the New covenant I gather, to the mother of us all. According to New Testament scripture, our faith is in the Father through His Son Jesus Christ. Our profession of faith in the Father was exemplified in the faith of His Son, whose example we are admonished to follow. Which faith was and or is not of course, the mother of us all. The church of Christ symbolically represented as a women, is that of a chaste virgin, not a mother. Though the term mother church certainly developed over time, referring to being the original I suppose, it does not appear to be established by scripture.

While Gal 4:26 does refer to the Jerusalem above as the mother of us all, in relation to the child of promise and faith in that promise of course, this faith is not in regards to a Jerusalem of this earth. It is in regards to the Jerusalem above, by faith according to the promise of the believers final abode in that very Jerusalem.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

While the Old Testament speaks of the daughter or daughters of Jerusalem, the New Testament does not expound greatly upon this point, save one daughter in particular.

2Co 11:1 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. 2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Who are the spiritually chaste virgins of holy scripture, but those who remained true to the authentic faith and teachings of holy scripture, the word of God. Which is why no guile was found within their mouths, they remained faithful to the truth, following the Lamb wherever He goes according to that which He teaches. This of course, as verily the WORD OF GOD.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

So the true church of the faithful are the chaste virgin of Christ, to be united with the promised new Jerusalem, of which our Lord Jesus is the King forever more. The bride of Christ inhabited by the true and faithful servants of God, which shall never be corrupted as the Jerusalem of this world so often was. As the Old Testament predicted.

Zep 3:13 The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid. 14 Sing, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel; be glad and rejoice with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem. 15 The LORD hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the LORD, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more.

Zec 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. 10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river evento the ends of the earth.

Mic 4:6 In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted; 7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever. 8 And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.

Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Fri Jan 09, 2026 - 12:00:29There's several meanings for "soul" in the Bible.

In ALL of these verses, the one that makes most sense is simply "people" or "a person."

The special meaning of the word, referring to a specific part of us, isn't in view here.  It's really only Paul who uses the word that way.

In both the OT and the NT, when the human being, as opposed to animals generally, is being spoken of the words for soul and for spirit are used all most always interchangeably.

: Cobalt1959  Wed Jan 07, 2026 - 23:36:31I find the highlighted portion somewhat puzzling since you spend a lot of time trying to defend the writings of Ellen G. White.  Would she not be placed in a category such as the one you are referring to?  Not nearly as early, but still in the same category?

Obviously!!

: 4WD  Sat Jan 10, 2026 - 02:52:53In both the OT and the NT, when the human being, as opposed to animals generally, is being spoken of the words for soul and for spirit are used all most always interchangeably.

Interesting. Some examples from scripture would be appropriate I think. Since the body was formed first at creation, then the breath and or spirit of God was put into the body resulting in a living soul, it should be no surprise that a soul could or should end up being associated with either the body or spirit of men. Nevertheless, when the body and spirit are separated, it appears that a living soul ceases to exist. Entering a state of being the Holy scriptures refer to a sleeping.

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The three being tied together again in the above scripture, tied directly to the preservation of our lives as blameless in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

And again in the above, to the effect that the word of God can even divide the soul, spirit, and body. In reference to the judgement of our thoughts and the intentions of our hearts. As in death these three are divided, when the spirit goes back to God who gave it, and the body goes back to the dust it was formed from, and the soul is therefore no more. The result of the judgment of God for our first parents disobedience in the Garden, and the biblically predicted end of the wicked in the lake of fire. Where the unsaved die the second and final death, of which the saved have no part.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

There is a book of life in which the names of the saved are written, and a second death for a reason. Those whose names have been removed from the book of life, will not have life or existence of any kind.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. 8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. 20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. 21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

CHAP. V.—THE DUTIES OF DEACONS, YOUTHS, AND VIRGINS.

Knowing, then, that "God is not mocked," we ought to walk worthy of His commandment and glory. In like manner should the deacons be blameless before the face of His righteousness, as being the servants of God and Christ, and not of men. They must not be slanderers, double-tongued, or lovers of money, but temperate in all things, compassionate, industrious, walking according to the truth of the Lord, who was the servant of all. If we please Him in this present world, we shall receive also the future world, according as He has promised to us that He will raise us again from the dead, and that if we live worthily of Him, "we shall also reign together with Him," provided only we believe. In like manner, let the young men also be blameless in all things, being especially careful to preserve purity, and keeping themselves in, as with a bridle, from every kind of evil. For it is well that they should be cut off from the lusts that are in the world, since "every lust warreth against the spirit;" and "neither fornicators, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, shall inherit the kingdom of God," nor those who do things inconsistent and unbecoming. Wherefore, it is needful to abstain from all these things, being subject to the presbyters and deacons, as unto God and Christ. The virgins also must walk in a blameless and pure conscience.

Polycarp of Smryna, "The Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 34.

The highlighted section of the above quote is another addition of a new nature, to any instruction given or found in holy scripture.  Not even the Apostles themselves taught or declared that any should be subject to themselves, as unto God or Christ. Other "Church Fathers" later built up and expounded upon this erroneous declaration. Bishops and deacons were given special instruction for their own behavior as examples to the flock, but were never raised to the authority of God or Christ by the apostles. Paul declared that it was the man of sin, that would place himself in the temple or church of God, as though he were God. He also warned of those who would enter the church seeking followers after their own selves, misleading the flock. Such who would themselves of course make such claims, that they might lead people astray after them. Using their title and office in the church, to usurp the authority of God for themselves.

This short statement and addition to holy scripture, had disastrous results in the future. As many followed the lead of impostures over an above the clear testimony of holy scripture, unto the establishment of apostate forms of Christianity which exalted one sinful fallen human being over and above all others.

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

CHAP. VI.—THE DUTIES OF PRESBYTERS AND OTHERS.

And let the presbyters be compassionate and merciful to all, bringing back those that wander, visiting all the sick, and not neglecting the widow, the orphan, or the poor, but always "providing for that which is becoming in the sight of God and man;" abstaining from all wrath, respect of persons, and unjust judgment; keeping far off from all covetousness, not quickly crediting [an evil report] against any one, not severe in judgment, as knowing that we are all under a debt of sin. If then we entreat the Lord to forgive us, we ought also ourselves to forgive; for we are before the eyes of our Lord and God, and "we must all appear at the judgment-seat of Christ, and must every one give an account of himself." Let us then serve Him in fear, and with all reverence, even as He Himself has commanded us, and as the apostles who preached the Gospel unto us, and the prophets who proclaimed beforehand the coming of the Lord [have alike taught us]. Let us be zealous in the pursuit of that which is good, keeping ourselves from causes of offence, from false brethren, and from those who in hypocrisy bear the name of the Lord, and draw away vain men into error.

Polycarp of Smryna, "The Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 34.

Good scriptural advice. Which if followed, would have prevented the wolves and such as were seeking followers after themselves, from teaching perverse things and leading people away with them. Nevertheless, the extra biblical teaching in the previous chapter, did eventually lead to the same as our Lord and Paul predicted.

CHAP. IX.—PATIENCE INCULCATED.

I exhort you all, therefore, to yield obedience to the word of righteousness, and to exercise all patience, such as ye have seen [set] before your eyes, not only in the case of the blessed Ignatius, and Zosimus, and Rufus, but also in others among yourselves, and in Paul himself, and the rest of the apostles. [This do] in the assurance that all these have not run in vain, but in faith and righteousness, and that they are [now] in their due place in the presence of the Lord, with whom also they suffered. For they loved not this present world, but Him who died for us, and for our sakes was raised again by God from the dead.

Polycarp of Smryna, "The Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 35.

Having already addressed the state of the dead in regard to Holy Scripture verses this epistle, and Apostolic or Scriptural authority over and above all others, I will not repeat these examinations in relation to the above.

: Amo  Fri Jan 09, 2026 - 18:51:25Is that special meaning defined in scripture, or is it extra biblical?

Scripture expects us to already know the meaning of the word nepesh (soul).  I can't think of a spot where it tries to define it for us.  However, the meaning is easily deduced if we look at its usage throughout the OT, which is extensive.

Should one want to look outside the Bible, there is a large body of work by the Greek philosophers dedicated to the study.  Paul is clearly aware of this and draws on it.  The Old Testament authors precede it, and do not use it in this way.

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Mon Jan 26, 2026 - 21:13:15Scripture expects us to already know the meaning of the word nepesh (soul).  I can't think of a spot where it tries to define it for us.  However, the meaning is easily deduced if we look at its usage throughout the OT, which is extensive.

Should one want to look outside the Bible, there is a large body of work by the Greek philosophers dedicated to the study.  Paul is clearly aware of this and draws on it.  The Old Testament authors precede it, and do not use it in this way.

Not exactly a definition, more like the formula or ingredients.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Material body + breath or spirit from God = living soul. When one dies the body goes back to the dust, the spirit back to God, and the living soul dies.

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Isa 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. 20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The Lord did not lie, when He told us what the penalty for eating from the forbidden tree was.

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Having finished reading THE EPISTLE OF POLYCARP TO THE PHILIPPIANS and seeing no issues, I will now move on to THE ENCYCLICAL EPISTLE OF THE CHURCH AT SMYRNA, CONCERNING THE MARTYRDOM OF THE HOLY POLYCARP.

THE ENCYCLICAL EPISTLE OF THE CHURCH AT SMYRNA

CONCERNING THE MARTYRDOM OF THE HOLY POLYCARP

THE Church of God which sojourns at Smyrna, to the Church of God sojourning in Philomelium, and to all the congregations2 of the Holy and Catholic Church in every place: Mercy, peace, and love from God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, be multiplied.

CHAP. I.—SUBJECT OF WHICH WE WRITE.

We have written to you, brethren, as to what relates to the martyrs, and especially to the blessed Polycarp, who put an end to the persecution, having, as it were, set a seal upon it by his martyrdom. For almost all the events that happened previously [to this one], took place that the Lord might show us from above a martyrdom becoming the Gospel. For he waited to be delivered up, even as the Lord had done, that we also might become his followers, while we look not merely at what concerns ourselves, but have regard also to our neighbours. For it is the part of a true and well-founded love, not only to wish one's self to be saved, but also all the brethren.


Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, eds., "The Encyclical Epistle of the Church at Smyrna," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 39.

The above I suppose, refers to an end of a particular persecution, as our Lord did not predict an end to persecution of His followers in this world until His glorious return. Not to mention the recorded histories of many a persecution throughout history after the above mentioned.

Jhn 15:18  If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. 19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. 20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.

CHAP. II.—THE WONDERFUL CONSTANCY OF THE MARTYRS.

All the martyrdoms, then, were blessed and noble which took place according to the will of God. For it becomes us who profess greater piety than others, to ascribe the authority over all things to God. And truly, who can fail to admire their nobleness of mind, and their patience, with that love towards their Lord which they displayed?—who, when they were so torn with scourges, that the frame of their bodies, even to the very inward veins and arteries, was laid open, still patiently endured, while even those that stood by pitied and bewailed them. But they reached such a pitch of magnanimity, that not one of them let a sigh or a groan escape them; thus proving to us all that those holy martyrs of Christ, at the very time when they suffered such torments, were absent from the body, or rather, that the Lord then stood by them, and communed with them. And, looking to the grace of Christ, they despised all the torments of this world, redeeming themselves from eternal punishment by [the suffering of] a single hour. For this reason the fire of their savage executioners appeared cool to them. For they kept before their view escape from that fire which is eternal and never shall be quenched, and looked forward with the eyes of their heart to those good things which are laid up for such as endure; things "which ear hath not heard, nor eye seen, neither have entered into the heart of man," but were revealed by the Lord to them, inasmuch as they were no longer men, but had already become angels. And, in like manner, those who were condemned to the wild beasts endured dreadful tortures, being stretched out upon beds full of spikes, and subjected to various other kinds of torments, in order that, if it were possible, the tyrant might, by their lingering tortures, lead them to a denial [of Christ].

Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, eds., "The Encyclical Epistle of the Church at Smyrna," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 39.

Interesting comment concerning those martyred becoming angels. Probably just a figure of speech, as I am not aware of such teaching from scripture or otherwise in the early church.

CHAP. XIII.—THE FUNERAL PILE IS ERECTED.

This, then, was carried into effect with greater speed than it was spoken, the multitudes immediately gathering together wood and fagots out of the shops and baths; the Jews especially, according to custom, eagerly assisting them in it. And when the funeral pile was ready, Polycarp, laying aside all his garments, and loosing his girdle, sought also to take off his sandals,—a thing he was not accustomed to do, inasmuch as every one of the faithful was always eager who should first touch his skin. For, on account of his holy life, he was, even before his martyrdom, adorned with every kind of good. Immediately then they surrounded him with those substances which had been prepared for the funeral pile. But when they were about also to fix him with nails, he said, "Leave me as I am; for He that giveth me strength to endure the fire, will also enable me; without your securing me by nails, to remain without moving in the pile."

Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, eds., "The Encyclical Epistle of the Church at Smyrna," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 42.

Sounds like certain people were getting a little out of focus concerning their faith. Beginning to exalt certain individuals and their flesh apparently, above Him alone who can make anyone or thing holy.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
 
There is nothing in the flesh or of fallen humanity that is holy. Save the Holy Spirit of God which may dwell within by faith. Which Spirit cannot be imparted or attained by or through the flesh.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

: Amo  Fri Feb 20, 2026 - 09:31:31Sounds like certain people were getting a little out of focus concerning their faith. Beginning to exalt certain individuals and their flesh apparently, above Him alone who can make anyone or thing holy.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
 
There is nothing in the flesh or of fallen humanity that is holy. Save the Holy Spirit of God which may dwell within by faith. Which Spirit cannot be imparted or attained by or through the flesh.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

::announcment::  ::preachit::  ::nodding::

CHAP. XIV.—THE PRAYER OF POLYCARP.

They did not nail him then, but simply bound him. And he, placing his hands behind him, and being bound like a distinguished ram [taken] out of a great flock for sacrifice, and prepared to be an acceptable burnt-offering unto God, looked up to heaven, and said, "O Lord God Almighty, the Father of thy beloved and blessed Son Jesus Christ, by whom we have received the knowledge of Thee, the God of angels and powers, and of every creature, and of the whole race of the righteous who live before thee, I give Thee thanks that Thou hast counted me worthy of this day and this hour, that I should have a part in the number of Thy martyrs, in the cup of thy Christ, to the resurrection of eternal life, both of soul and body, through the incorruption [imparted] by the Holy Ghost. Among whom may I be accepted this day before Thee as a fat and acceptable sacrifice, according as Thou, the ever-truthful God, hast fore-ordained, hast revealed beforehand to me, and now hast fulfilled. Wherefore also I praise Thee for all things, I bless Thee, I glorify Thee, along with the everlasting and heavenly Jesus Christ, Thy beloved Son, with whom, to Thee, and the Holy Ghost, be glory both now and to all coming ages. Amen."

Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, eds., "The Encyclical Epistle of the Church at Smyrna," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 42.

Uh Oh!

Heb 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. 21 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: 24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. 26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. 28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 23 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Heb 10:4  For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Only one man died the only sacrificial death which was, is, and only will be acceptable to God unto the salvation of humanity. Nor does God require sacrifices from the lost unto salvation as all the pagan gods did and do, but rather God Himself supplied His and our sacrifice unto salvation. The individual and spiritual sacrifice of the New Covenant era is described by Paul, and it distinctly not a literal one.

Rom 12:1  I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

It was the devil and his minions of the flesh, who martyred, and burned alive one who would not submit to them. God has called for no such thing, but rather the sacrifice of self by self, in willful submission to the Father through Christ Jesus the Son. Martyrs are witnesses to the steadfastness and surety of the promises of God. Certainly not any kind of acceptable sacrifice by the wicked unto God, or any kind of blasphemy intended by the martyred, as though they were in any way shape or form the one acceptable sacrifice for sin unto God. Nevertheless, only the Spirit of God can inspire and empower the believer unto authentic martyrdom. Making those responsible for persecuting God's very own, guilty of persecuting our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ again as well.

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

: Amo  Sat Mar 07, 2026 - 17:49:30Uh Oh!

Heb 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. 21 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: 24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. 26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. 28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 23 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Heb 10:4  For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Only one man died the only sacrificial death which was, is, and only will be acceptable to God unto the salvation of humanity. Nor does God require sacrifices from the lost unto salvation as all the pagan gods did and do, but rather God Himself supplied His and our sacrifice unto salvation. The individual and spiritual sacrifice of the New Covenant era is described by Paul, and it distinctly not a literal one.

Rom 12:1  I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

It was the devil and his minions of the flesh, who martyred, and burned alive one who would not submit to them. God has called for no such thing, but rather the sacrifice of self by self, in willful submission to the Father through Christ Jesus the Son. Martyrs are witnesses to the steadfastness and surety of the promises of God. Certainly not any kind of acceptable sacrifice by the wicked unto God, or any kind of blasphemy intended by the martyred, as though they were in any way shape or form the one acceptable sacrifice for sin unto God. Nevertheless, only the Spirit of God can inspire and empower the believer unto authentic martyrdom. Making those responsible for persecuting God's very own, guilty of persecuting our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ again as well.

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

::preachit::

CHAP. XV.—POLYCARP IS NOT INJURED BY THE FIRE.

When he had pronounced this amen, and so finished his prayer, those who were appointed for the purpose kindled the fire. And as the flame blazed forth in great fury, we, to whom it was given to witness it, beheld a great miracle, and have been preserved that we might report to others what then took place. For the fire, shaping itself into the form of an arch, like the sail of a ship when filled with the wind, encompassed as by a circle the body of the martyr. And he appeared within not like flesh which is burnt, but as bread that is baked, or as gold and silver glowing in a furnace. Moreover, we perceived such a sweet odour [coming from the pile], as if frankincense or some such precious spices had been smoking there.


CHAP. XVI.—POLYCARP IS PIERCED BY A DAGGER.

At length, when those wicked men perceived that his body could not be consumed by the fire, they commanded an executioner to go near and pierce him through with a dagger. And on his doing this, there came forth a dove, and a great quantity of blood, so that the fire was extinguished; and all the people wondered that there should be such a difference between the unbelievers and the elect, of whom this most admirable Polycarp was one, having in our own times been an apostolic and prophetic teacher, and bishop of the Catholic Church which is in Smyrna. For every word that went out of his mouth either has been or shall yet be accomplished.


Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, eds., "The Encyclical Epistle of the Church at Smyrna," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 42.

A strange account indeed. In chapter 14 which we already discussed, Polycarp was compared to a sacrificial ram and burnt offering to God, which our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was Himself, being the Lamb of God sacrificed from the foundation of the world. Which I thought improper, as it was and is.

Gen 22:11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. 12  And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. 13  And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.

Rev 13:8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Now in chapter 15, he appears as a baked loaf of bread, or as glowing gold or silver. Not that I see any likeness between baked bread and glowing gold or silver, unless he looked like a glowing gold or silver baked loaf of bread. Very strange. On the other hand, our Lord and savior Jesus Christ was the bread of life. By His blood we are saved, not by putting out fires, but rather cleansing from sin. And to what purpose would God put out the fire, only to allow his servant o be stabbed to death? The Holy Spirit who is God, visibly descended upon our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the form of a dove, what pray tell therefore does a dove leaving someone represent? At best their death I suppose, but according to this epistle itself Polycarp did not die but already being an angel as it were simply ascended up to heaven. Oh yes I almost forgot, every word that went out of Polycarps mouth either has been or shall yet be fulfilled. Kind of like, you know, God or our Lord Jesus Christ.

John 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. ................35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. ...................    48 I am that bread of life............................ 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world

1Co 1:29  That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30  But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31  That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

1Co 3:21  Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours; 22  Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours; 23  And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

A little to much praise for the saved sinner Polycarp in this epistle, and allusions to attributes of our Lord Himself concerning him, than I care for.

CHAP. XVII.—THE CHRISTIANS ARE REFUSED POLYCARP'S BODY.

But when the adversary of the race of the righteous, the envious, malicious, and wicked one, perceived the impressive nature of his martyrdom, and [considered] the blameless life he had led from the beginning, and how he was now crowned with the wreath of immortality, having beyond dispute received his reward, he did his utmost that not the least memorial of him should be taken away by us, although many desired to do this, and to become possessors of his holy flesh. For this end he suggested it to Nicetes, the father of Herod and brother of Alce, to go and entreat the governor not to give up his body to be buried, "lest," said he, "forsaking Him that was crucified, they begin to worship this one." This he said at the suggestion and urgent persuasion of the Jews, who also watched us, as we sought to take him out of the fire, being ignorant of this, that it is neither possible for us ever to forsake Christ, who suffered for the salvation of such as shall be saved throughout the whole world (the blameless one for sinners), nor to worship any other. For Him indeed, as being the Son of God, we adore; but the martyrs, as disciples and followers of the Lord, we worthily love on account of their extraordinary affection towards their own King and Master, of whom may we also be made companions and fellow-disciples!

Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, eds., "The Encyclical Epistle of the Church at Smyrna," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 42–43.

More attributes of God and Christ alone being applied to Polycarp in the above inflated testimonies. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is the only man after the fall, who has been blameless since the beginning. Nor do any of us sinners have holy flesh. Our Flesh being the old man which all of us must contend and do battle with. As the apostle Paul clearly taught in his testimonies, not to mention Paul's testimony as to when the saved will receive immortality as well, which the above inflated testimony also declares Polycarp had already received beyond ability to dispute. And what of Polycarp himself according to the above testimony, thinking himself to be so greatly admired, as to his body being worshipped in the place of Jesus by professed Christians after his death? If this testimony be true, which I begin to doubt the further along I read.

Rom 8:1  There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Gal 5:16  This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

1Co 15:50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1Th 4:13  But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Jhn 5:26  For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

CHAP. XVIII.—THE BODY OF POLYCARP IS BURNED.

The centurion then, seeing the strife excited by the Jews, placed the body in the midst of the fire, and consumed it. Accordingly, we afterwards took up his bones, as being more precious than the most exquisite jewels, and more purified than gold, and deposited them in a fitting place, whither, being gathered together, as opportunity is allowed us, with joy and rejoicing, the Lord shall grant us to celebrate the anniversary of his martyrdom, both in memory of those who have already finished their course, and for the exercising and preparation of those yet to walk in their steps.

Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, eds., "The Encyclical Epistle of the Church at Smyrna," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 43.

The beginning of saint and relic worship, which continues to this day. The exaltation of another sinner such as ourselves, above their fellow laborers and brethren, in eventual competition with and to Christ Jesus our Lord. Who alone is worthy of such praise and exaltation. By whom alone any authentically blessed and or unusually committed or righteous individual, attained such a status. Which in the future occupied to much time, ceremony, and practice also belonging to Christ our Lord alone.

Nobodies bones are more precious than exquisite jewels, or purified gold. They are and will return to dust. Always meant to be replaced with that which is more precious and purified than jewelry or gold, our new glorified, purified, and eternal characters and spiritual bodies. For there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

CHAP. XIX.—PRAISE OF THE MARTYR POLYCARP.

This, then, is the account of the blessed Polycarp, who, being the twelfth that was martyred in Smyrna (reckoning those also of Philadelphia), yet occupies a place of his own in the memory of all men, insomuch that he is everywhere spoken of by the heathen themselves. He was not merely an illustrious teacher, but also a pre-eminent martyr, whose martyrdom all desire to imitate, as having been altogether consistent with the Gospel of Christ. For, having through patience overcome the unjust governor, and thus acquired the crown of immortality, he now, with the apostles and all the righteous [in heaven], rejoicingly glorifies God, even the Father, and blesses our Lord Jesus Christ, the Saviour of our souls, the Governor of our bodies, and the Shepherd of the Catholic Church throughout the world.9

Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, eds., "The Encyclical Epistle of the Church at Smyrna," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 43.

2Ti 4:6  For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7  I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8  Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Paul expected to receive his crown of immortality at Christ's appearing, not at death. Was this Polycarp greater than the apostle Paul? Or perhaps those who have stated such regarding Polycarp consider that they know what really happens at death, better than Paul did.

Jhn 6:39  And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. ..............................
40  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. ......................
44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. ......................
54  Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

According to holy scripture, the dead do not praise or glorify God.

Psa 30:1  A Psalm and Song at the dedication of the house of David. I will extol thee, O LORD; for thou hast lifted me up, and hast not made my foes to rejoice over me. 2  O LORD my God, I cried unto thee, and thou hast healed me. 3  O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit. 4  Sing unto the LORD, O ye saints of his, and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness. 5  For his anger endureth but a moment; in his favour is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning. 6  And in my prosperity I said, I shall never be moved. 7  LORD, by thy favour thou hast made my mountain to stand strong: thou didst hide thy face, and I was troubled. 8  I cried to thee, O LORD; and unto the LORD I made supplication. 9  What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth? 10  Hear, O LORD, and have mercy upon me: LORD, be thou my helper. 11  Thou hast turned for me my mourning into dancing: thou hast put off my sackcloth, and girded me with gladness; 12  To the end that my glory may sing praise to thee, and not be silent. O LORD my God, I will give thanks unto thee for ever.

Psa 88:1  A Song or Psalm for the sons of Korah, to the chief Musician upon Mahalath Leannoth, Maschil of Heman the Ezrahite. O LORD God of my salvation, I have cried day and night before thee: 2  Let my prayer come before thee: incline thine ear unto my cry; 3  For my soul is full of troubles: and my life draweth nigh unto the grave. 4  I am counted with them that go down into the pit: I am as a man that hath no strength: 5  Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand. 6  Thou hast laid me in the lowest pit, in darkness, in the deeps. 7  Thy wrath lieth hard upon me, and thou hast afflicted me with all thy waves. Selah. 8  Thou hast put away mine acquaintance far from me; thou hast made me an abomination unto them: I am shut up, and I cannot come forth. 9  Mine eye mourneth by reason of affliction: LORD, I have called daily upon thee, I have stretched out my hands unto thee. 10  Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. 11  Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction? 12  Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness? 13  But unto thee have I cried, O LORD; and in the morning shall my prayer prevent thee. 14  LORD, why castest thou off my soul? why hidest thou thy face from me? 15  I am afflicted and ready to die from my youth up: while I suffer thy terrors I am distracted. 16  Thy fierce wrath goeth over me; thy terrors have cut me off. 17  They came round about me daily like water; they compassed me about together. 18  Lover and friend hast thou put far from me, and mine acquaintance into darkness.

Psa 115:1  Not unto us, O LORD, not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, for thy mercy, and for thy truth's sake. 2  Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God? 3  But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased. 4  Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands. 5  They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not: 6  They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not: 7  They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat. 8  They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them. 9  O Israel, trust thou in the LORD: he is their help and their shield. 10  O house of Aaron, trust in the LORD: he is their help and their shield. 11  Ye that fear the LORD, trust in the LORD: he is their help and their shield. 12  The LORD hath been mindful of us: he will bless us; he will bless the house of Israel; he will bless the house of Aaron. 13  He will bless them that fear the LORD, both small and great. 14  The LORD shall increase you more and more, you and your children. 15  Ye are blessed of the LORD which made heaven and earth. 16  The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men. 17  The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. 18  But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore. Praise the LORD.

Ecc 9:5  For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6  Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. 7  Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works. 8  Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment. 9  Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun. 10  Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Hi I would offer. Martyrizing is a false doctrine that Roman Catholic with Greek Orthodox  use to build there own sect for venerating the dead (patron saints)

What I call a abomination of desolation attributing the work of our unseen Holy Father over to dying mankind and oral traditons. called Apostolic Fathers.  showing hatred of our Holy Father.

Christ as anti christ another teaching authority other than sola scriptura 

Simply deceitfully a lying sign (martyrizing ) that unbelievers wonder and marvel after just as if Christ was brining new prophecy

Completely  destroy the intended meaning of two words martyrs (simple witness) and apostle sent one-- deliver boy- UPS-- FED X

Clearly the first apostle Abel the second born sent with the gospel martyred His witness still cries out  The church began in Genesis not Mathew 

The Original Meaning of "Martyr" The Greek word μάρτυς (martyrs) literally means "witness." Nothing more and nothing less.

The law of interpretation protecting the one "author" and "finisher""the one who gives his understanding --- do not add new meaning to one word. . Itcan change all the loving commandments.  Found in Deuteronomy 4:2 another at the end(Rev22) do not add or subtract.

Two working to protect the integrity of Christ the invisible author. The just and justifier our Holy father Christ

A martyr is anyone who testifies to the truth of God's Word, often at the cost of their life, but the emphasis is on faithful witness, not the act of dying itself.----all die in the end In Sola Scriptural John the Baptist, Stephen, and the apostles were martyrs because they witnessed God's truth, even unto death. Institutional confusion---- Catholic oral tradition emphasizes suffering or death as a kind of works-righteousness making dying mankind venerable, praise worthy of prayer . .

This can falsely lead to a mindset where the act of dying for faith becomes a venerable merit, rather than faithfulness of Christ being the witness---  yoked with Christ .True Christian witness is faithful living-- testifying to sola scriptura God's Word not achieving reward through martyrdom. In that way "let the dead bury the dead "  

All Believers Are "Martyrs" in the true biblical sense. Every believer who testifies to God's living word--- whether through preaching , obedience, or enduring persecution, is a witness.(martyr ) Death may or may not occur, but the key is faithful testimony. Christ in us In that sense, all believers are martyrs, because every life lived in obedience is a testimony to God.

The unseen witness Christ must be mixed with that which the seen the temporal historical dying .  No unseen gospel version was given to the father of lies .Not subject to the gospel . .His vision the tip of his lying nose.. what the eyes see  no hidden manna-- daily bread no understanding of the parables

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.


Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

There is no eternal life for us, without our death.

Jhn 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. 25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

CHAP. XXI.—THE DATE OF THE MARTYRDOM.
Now, the blessed Polycarp suffered martyrdom on the second day of the month Xanthicus just begun, the seventh day before the Kalends of May, on the great Sabbath, at the eighth hour. He was taken by Herod, Philip the Trallian being high priest, Statius Quadratus being proconsul, but Jesus Christ being King for ever, to whom be glory, honour, majesty, and an everlasting throne, from generation to generation. Amen.

Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, eds., "The Encyclical Epistle of the Church at Smyrna," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 43.

Finally, regarding the epistle under examination, it refers to the great Sabbath while of course not addressing the Sabbath or not issue. The subject being that of the martyrdom of Polycarp. Nevertheless, it is interesting that Christians who many claim no longer observed the seventh day Sabbath or other claimed Jewish "ceremonial" practices by this time, would still refer to the day Polycarp was martyred upon with the Jewish reference to the Great Sabbath.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

THE EPISTLE OF IGNATIUS TO THE EPHESIANS

LONGER VERSION

CHAP. I.—PRAISE OF THE EPHESIANS.

I HAVE become acquainted with your greatly-desired name in God, which ye have acquired by the habit of righteousness, according to the faith and love in Christ Jesus our Saviour. Being the followers of the love of God towards man, and stirring up yourselves by the blood of Christ, you have perfectly accomplished the work which was beseeming to you. For, on hearing that I came bound from Syria for the sake of Christ, our common hope, trusting through your prayers to be permitted to fight with beasts at Rome, that so by martyrdom I may indeed become the disciple of Him "who gave Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God," [ye hastened to see me]. I have therefore received your whole multitude in the name of God, through Onesimus, a man of inexpressible love, and who is your bishop, whom I pray you by Jesus Christ to love, and that you would all seek to be like him. Blessed be God, who has granted unto you, who are yourselves so excellent, to obtain such an excellent bishop.

Ignatius of Antioch, "The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 50.

Interesting. I may be wrong, but I don't remember any of the apostles praying for martyrdom, in order to become a disciple of our Lord Jesus Christ. As though He required that His followers seek to be literally martyred by their enemies in faith. Even our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ prayed that He might be delivered from the cup of His humiliation and death by crucifixion.

Mat 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour? 41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak. 42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done. 43 And he came and found them asleep again: for their eyes were heavy. 44 And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.

The New Covenant sacrifice of the sinner is a spiritual one. Which is even more necessary than a literal one at the hands of God's enemies in martyrdom. Without the spiritual sacrifice first, a literal one would be meaningless and accomplish nothing. This is aside from the fact that one who has already spiritually sacrificed their lives unto God in Christ Jesus our Lord, would and will of course be ready for martyrdom if or when God allowed for the same unto the glory and honor of His name. Nevertheless, it is not required for salvation or to be a disciple of Christ in scripture. Nor would I think it should be something one should pray would happen to them. Perhaps though, that we might be ready and able if such were according to God's will and for the glory and honor of His name.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, hat ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

I have little use for the ECFs.  It is clear from their writings that they got some stuff right and a lot of stuff very wrong. 

There is a school of thought that Clement of Alexandria was the author of the book of Hebrews.  I suppose it is possible.   But I lean more toward Barnabas or Apollos. 

: DaveW  Sun May 10, 2026 - 13:58:39I have little use for the ECFs.  It is clear from their writings that they got some stuff right and a lot of stuff very wrong. 

There is a school of thought that Clement of Alexandria was the author of the book of Hebrews.  I suppose it is possible.   But I lean more toward Barnabas or Apollos. 

EFC false dichotomy

Earthly dying fathers are used in scripture in two very different ways. Satan would collapse them into one category because he has no spiritual understanding subject to the written gospel.

One kind of father protects all things written in the law and prophets — holding to the authority of the written testimony. Those are servants pointing beyond themselves toward Christ the unseen Holy Father.

The other kind builds outward through oral traditions of dying mankind, seeking after signs, wonders, apparitions, and religious authority as though Christ were still adding new prophecy.

To those trusting in counterfeit authority and lying signs, scripture says God sends strong delusion.

Acts 24 becomes a good example of the two kinds of fathers struggling against one another. One side accused the gospel itself of being heresy and attempted to replace the written witness with inherited traditions and accusations.

I would rather follow those truly sent by God — the apostles carrying the infallible gospel message — not later systems of earthly religious authority claiming inspired status beside scripture.

Even the term "early church fathers" can become misleading if it subtly shifts attention away from the first and highest Father: our invisible Abba Holy Father.

Scripture warns repeatedly not to elevate dying earthly mankind into spiritual fatherhood as though they were the source of divine authority.

There are always two voices:
the written word of God,
or the traditions proceeding from the mouth of men.

Jeremiah 44 reveals the pattern clearly. The people preferred the traditions of their fathers and the worship of the "queen of heaven" because they believed those practices brought earthly prosperity and visible comfort.

Jeremiah spoke in the name of the Lord, yet they answered:

"As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee."

That same conflict remains today. One voice calls men back to the written testimony and Christ alone. The other continually builds systems of visible religious comfort around traditions inherited from earthly fathers.

CHAP. II.—CONGRATULATIONS AND ENTREATIES.

As to our fellow-servant Burrhus, your deacon in regard to God and blessed in all things, I pray that he may continue blameless for the honour of the Church, and of your most blessed bishop. Crocus also, worthy both of God and you, whom we have received as the manifestation of your love to us, hath in all things refreshed7 me, and "hath not been ashamed of my chain," as the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ will also refresh9 him; together with Onesimus, and Burrhus, and Euplus, and Fronto, by means of whom I have, as to love, beheld all of you. May I always have joy of you, if indeed I be worthy of it. It is therefore befitting that you should in every way glorify Jesus Christ, who hath glorified you, that by a unanimous obedience "ye may be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment, and may all speak the same thing concerning the same thing," and that, being subject to the bishop and the presbytery, ye may in all respects be sanctified.

Ignatius of Antioch, "The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 50.

Do the scriptures really teach us to be unanimously obedient to the bishop and presbytery? To all say the same thing, concerning the same thing? As though what, Bishops have all knowledge and alone express the teachings and will of God by way of proper witnessing? So that we should imitate and subject ourselves to their examples and manner of teaching in the place of who, Jesus Christ?

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. 3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; 7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; 8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy,[\u] with cheerfulness.

Mat 20:25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. 26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; 27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: 28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, 6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. 8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

Our Lord and the Apostle Paul did not point to Bishops or a presbytery or clergy to whom a supposed laity were to be subordinated. To the contrary, they warned against those who desired after and sought such titles or exalted positions. Nor were those of the church with varying gifts instructed to seek out the approval of other mere men to learn what to say or how to present the truths of the gospel. To the contrary, they were pointed to the study of the scriptures themsleves for knowledge of such, and the power of the Holy Spirit of God unto the recollection of truth and power of presentation unto conversions. It was only in the apostasy that the Christian religion became Imperially mandated, and a laity was subjected to a clergy that were supported and backed up by Imperial command. Though some such as Ignatius planted the seeds for such illicit authority and exaltation of one man over another within professed Christianity. Once the church and the empire were united, then such illicit union brought about the enforcement these sentiments previously sought out only by way of persuasion by such as Ignatius. Bringing persecution upon those who would not conform to such wishes by mere men, with no scriptural command concerning such.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Nevertheless -

2Ti 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

The knowledge of truth was to be obtained by careful and prayerful study of the holy scriptures. Not the boasted positions of mere men who sought and seek to lord themselves over us. As to the type and power of the presentation of scriptural truths -

Jhn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? 23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. 25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. 27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. 28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. 29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.


Mrk 13:9  But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them. 10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations. 11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

Luk 12:11 And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say: 12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.

Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

CHAP. III.—EXHORTATIONS TO UNITY.

I do not issue orders to you, as if I were some great person. For though I am bound for His name, I am not yet perfect in Jesus Christ. For now I begin to be a disciple, and I speak to you as my fellow-servants. For it was needful for me to have been admonished by you in faith, exhortation, patience, and long-suffering. But inasmuch as love suffers me not to be silent in regard to you, I have therefore taken upon me first to exhort you that ye would run together in accordance with the will of God. For even Jesus Christ does all things according to the will of the Father, as He Himself declares in a certain place, "I do always those things that please Him." Wherefore it behoves us also to live according to the will of God in Christ, and to imitate Him as Paul did. For, says he, "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ."

Ignatius of Antioch, "The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 50.

Here Ignatius hits the mark concerning proper submission to elected church leaders. They are to be followed only in that they exemplify the life or teachings of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The word, life, and teachings of Christ are what the world will be judged by. Not the authority of the many differing opinions or teachings of men with titles in various churches or denominations, who teach many an extra biblical doctrine or practice, or blatantly contradict holy scripture and the teachings of our Lord. There is no sin in disobeying any bishop or otherwise, who practices or preaches such. Whether a state or empire backs such teachings up by law or not. We will each be judged by the words and teachings of Jesus Christ, not such as these.

Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. 30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Jhn 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Jhn 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: 55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

CHAP. IV.—THE SAME CONTINUED.

Wherefore it is fitting that ye also should run together in accordance with the will of the bishop who by God's appointment rules over you. Which thing ye indeed of yourselves do, being instructed by the Spirit. For your justly-renowned presbytery, being worthy of God, is fitted as exactly to the bishop as the strings are to the harp. Thus, being joined together in concord and harmonious love, of which Jesus Christ is the Captain and Guardian, do ye, man by man, become but one choir; so that, agreeing together in concord, and obtaining a perfect unity with God, ye may indeed be one in harmonious feeling with God the Father, and His beloved Son Jesus Christ our Lord. For, says He, "Grant unto them, Holy Father, that as I and Thou are one, they also may be one in us." It is therefore profitable that you, being joined together with God in an unblameable unity, should be the followers of the example of Christ, of whom also ye are members.

Ignatius of Antioch, "The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 51.

Mrk 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. 43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: 44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all. 45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

As always, Ignatius advice to submit to the will of the bishop is only if said bishop remains within the boundaries of the teachings of our Lord and holy scripture. Bishops are to be as ministers of God, they are not to lord themselves over or exercise authority upon the body of Christ, as the Gentiles do over their subordinates. This is why the Church of Christ must remain separate from the state or empire. As soon as civil authorities enforce the dogmas of a church, the leaders of the church become just like the Gentiles and are therefore apostate. Especially if they agree and support this unholy union. How could it be any other way, when our Lord and the Apostle Paul have warned us that false leaders would arise from within the church, who would seek such authority for themselves?

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. 15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

It is incumbent therefore, upon all to examine and compare the teachings and lives of those who have been given and or claim authority within the church, with the teachings of holy scripture for authenticity. For what excuse will the deceived who had the word of God before them, and made no use of it unto knowledge, justification, and sanctification, have before God on that great day?

Act 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. 12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

Choose that which is more noble, and search the scriptures to see if the things you have been taught are truly so. What, do your professed leaders have authority above that of the Apostle Paul? If it was right to check what Paul preached concerning the truth, then it is certainly right and noble to check what your church leaders preach, teach, or exemplify, for conformity to the teachings of holy scripture. Especially since we have been warned of wolves seeking lordship over the Lord's flock. Make use of that which has been given to you by God, for this very purpose.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

CHAP. V.—THE PRAISE OF UNITY.

For if I, in this brief space of time, have enjoyed such fellowship with your bishop—I mean not of a mere human, but of a spiritual nature—how much more do I reckon you happy, who so depend on him as the Church does on the Lord Jesus,]/u] and the Lord does on God and His Father, that so all things may agree in unity! Let no man deceive himself: if any one be not within the altar, he is deprived of the bread of God. For if the prayer of one or two possesses such power that Christ stands in the midst of them, how much more will the prayer of the bishop and of the whole Church, ascending up in harmony to God, prevail for the granting of all their petitions in Christ! He, therefore, that separates himself from such, and does not meet in the society where sacrifices are offered, and with "the Church of the first-born whose names are written in heaven," is a wolf in sheep's clothing, while he presents a mild outward appearance. Do ye, beloved, be careful to be subject to the bishop, and the presbyters and the deacons. For he that is subject to these is obedient to Christ, who has appointed them; but he that is disobedient to these is disobedient to Christ Jesus. And "he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him." For he that yields not obedience to his superiors is self-confident, quarrelsome, and proud. But "God," says [the Scripture] "resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble;" and, "The proud have greatly transgressed." The Lord also says to the priests, "He that heareth you, heareth Me; and he that heareth Me, heareth the Father that sent Me. He that despiseth you, despiseth Me; and he that despiseth Me, despiseth Him that sent Me."

Ignatius of Antioch, "The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 51.

Wow, Ignatius is really heading off course with the above almost blasphemous and or twisted statements. The Lord Jesus Christ is God, the self existing one, one with the Father, the Alpha and the Omega. To suggest that anyone should depend upon their bishop as they do their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is borderline, if not straight forward blasphemy. I'm not going there.

We have the following testimony of Holy Scripture in relation to wolves.

Mat 7:15  Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30  Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

One thing to remember is that Scripture presents two kinds of fathers.

There is the father of lies, who has no understanding of the gospel hidden in parables and judges according to the lust of the eyes.

Then there is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who gives understanding by His Spirit through the written Word.

Saul of Tarsus was once a "father" according to the traditions of his day. In his zeal, he persecuted the born-again believers.

"I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women..." (Acts 22:4, KJV)

But after Christ opened his eyes, Saul became Paul. Before his accusers, he did not appeal to the traditions of men. Instead, he confessed:

"Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me... so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets." (Acts 24:13–14, KJV)

Paul's authority was no longer the traditions of men, but the written Scriptures. The gospel reveals the unseen things of Christ, our hope of glory, to those who hear God's Word.


"Taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers..." (Acts 22:3, KJV)

Filled with zeal, he persecuted those who followed Christ.

But after the Lord opened his eyes, Paul's authority changed. He no longer rested in the traditions of the fathers, but in the testimony of the one heavenly Father revealed in the written Scriptures.

His confession became:

"So worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets." (Acts 24:14, KJV)

The contrast is between the traditions of earthly fathers and the written testimony given by our one heavenly Father.

"For one is your Father, which is in heaven." (Matthew 23:9, KJV)

The law of the fathers gave way to the law of faith revealed by the one Father through His Son.the dynamic duo

CHAP. VI.— HAVE RESPECT TO THE BISHOP AS TO CHRIST HIMSELF.

The more, therefore, you see the bishop silent, the more do you reverence him. For we ought to receive every one whom the Master of the house sends to be over His household, as we would do Him that sent him. It is manifest, therefore, that we should look upon the bishop even as we would look upon the Lord Himself, standing, as he does, before the Lord. For "it behoves the man who looks carefully about him, and is active in his business, to stand before kings, and not to stand before slothful men."3 And indeed Onesimus himself greatly commends your good order in God, that ye all live according to the truth, and that no sect has any dwelling-place among you. Nor indeed do ye hearken to any one rather than to Jesus Christ, the true Shepherd and Teacher. And ye are, as Paul wrote to you, "one body and one spirit, because ye have also been called in one hope of the faith.5 Since also "there is one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in all." Such, then, are ye, having been taught by such instructors, Paul the Christ-bearer, and Timothy the most faithful.

Ignatius of Antioch, "The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 52.

Hmmm? First he tells them to look upon the bishop, a sinner such as ourselves, as though they were looking upon the Lord Himself. Seemingly border line blasphemy once again. Then he states that they do not hearken to any other than Jesus Christ, the true shepherd. Two seemingly contradictory statements. The main ingredient which Ignatius seems to leave out of the picture, which might remedy the problems I see with his continued exaltation of the Bishops, is the admonition to judge all Bishops and otherwise in accordance with the testimonies of Holy Scripture. Without this main ingredient, you simply have the exaltation of Bishops who are sinners such as ourselves, as unto God. If this very thing was not exactly what happened over time, one might be inclined to attribute this lack as a simple presumption on Ignatius' part, that all professed Christians were already doing so of their own accord.

Nevethrless and to the contrary, history records the establishment of one supreme Bishop over all others. Whose subservient Bishops were and are over all the priests of a supposed New Covenant priesthood as well, to replace the Old Covenant priesthood of sinful intermediaries upon whom the laity are dependent for intercession and salvation. An entire and enormous Old Covenant type system put in place during our New Covenant, in direct violation of the teachings and purpose of our Lord Jesus Christ and His authentic church. The latter consisting of those who truly do look to the Lord Jesus Christ alone for salvation by Him alone, and His intercession alone for the forgiveness of their sins, by faith in His once and for all time sacrifice for our sins. Whom seek to no longer crucify their Lord afresh by stubborn disobedience and or some extra biblical un-bloody sacrifice of our Lord once again, and again, and again. But rather by the obedience of faith, in the willful crucifixion of their own sinful selves at the foot of the cross. That the Spirit of God might dwell within them unto the establishment of Christ's righteousness within, and not their own. All of this and more also, according to the exemplary life and teachings of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and His apostles and prophets. Whose written testimonies are here for us to live by in the Holy Scriptures, the last and final word concerning all doctrine.

2Ti 3:10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, 11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

: garee  Sun Jul 12, 2026 - 07:20:50One thing to remember is that Scripture presents two kinds of fathers.

There is the father of lies, who has no understanding of the gospel hidden in parables and judges according to the lust of the eyes.

Then there is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who gives understanding by His Spirit through the written Word.

Saul of Tarsus was once a "father" according to the traditions of his day. In his zeal, he persecuted the born-again believers.

"I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women..." (Acts 22:4, KJV)

But after Christ opened his eyes, Saul became Paul. Before his accusers, he did not appeal to the traditions of men. Instead, he confessed:

"Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me... so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets." (Acts 24:13–14, KJV)

Paul's authority was no longer the traditions of men, but the written Scriptures. The gospel reveals the unseen things of Christ, our hope of glory, to those who hear God's Word.


"Taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers..." (Acts 22:3, KJV)

Filled with zeal, he persecuted those who followed Christ.

But after the Lord opened his eyes, Paul's authority changed. He no longer rested in the traditions of the fathers, but in the testimony of the one heavenly Father revealed in the written Scriptures.

His confession became:

"So worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets." (Acts 24:14, KJV)

The contrast is between the traditions of earthly fathers and the written testimony given by our one heavenly Father.

"For one is your Father, which is in heaven." (Matthew 23:9, KJV)

The law of the fathers gave way to the law of faith revealed by the one Father through His Son.the dynamic duo

Agreed. Nevertheless -

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

: Amo  Sun Jul 12, 2026 - 10:16:23Agreed. Nevertheless -

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

I agree. Hebrews 4:2 says the gospel was preached to them just as it is to us, yet many never profited because they did not mix what they heard with faith.

That's why Christ taught in parables. The historical events were real, but they were also God's way of revealing the unseen gospel. When we rightly divide the Scriptures, comparing the temporal things we can see with the eternal things we cannot see (2 Corinthians 4:18), the history isn't changed—it becomes richer because we see what it was always pointing to.

The history remains true, but faith allows us to see the eternal message hidden within it.

: Amo"Church Fathers" Scriptural or Not

I don't think you can lump them all together for evaluation.  The quality of the works there varies drastically. 

It's necessary to consider them each separately.  In my opinion:

Should be canon:
Epistle of Barnabas

Reliable, not Scripture
The Didache
Fragments of Papias

Useful Historical Context
Irenaeus
Justin Martyr

Too Political for my Liking
Clement
Polycarp

Don't Remember Them Well Enough to Say
Ignatius
Mathetes

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Fri Jul 17, 2026 - 11:20:00I don't think you can lump them all together for evaluation.  The quality of the works there varies drastically. 

It's necessary to consider them each separately.  In my opinion:

Should be canon:
Epistle of Barnabas

Reliable, not Scripture
The Didache
Fragments of Papias

Useful Historical Context
Irenaeus
Justin Martyr

Too Political for my Liking
Clement
Polycarp

Don't Remember Them Well Enough to Say
Ignatius
Mathetes

Agreed. That is why I am going through them one at a time, regarding their fidelity to Holy Scripture or not. At the very least, they should reveal historical fidelity to the teachings of the Holy Scriptures, or historical departure and or apostasy from the same.

CHAP. VII.—BEWARE OF FALSE TEACHERS.

But some most worthless persons are in the habit of carrying about the name [of Jesus Christ] in wicked guile, while yet they practise things unworthy of God, and hold opinions contrary to the doctrine of Christ, to their own destruction, and that of those who give credit to them, whom you must avoid as ye would wild beasts. For "the righteous man who avoids them is saved for ever; but the destruction of the ungodly is sudden, and a subject of rejoicing." For "they are dumb dogs, that cannot bark,"9 raving mad, and biting secretly, against whom ye must be on your guard, since they labour under an incurable disease. But our Physician is the only true God, the unbegotten and unapproachable, the Lord of all, the Father and Begetter of the only-begotten Son. We have also as a Physician the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For "the Word was made flesh."11 Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passible body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts.

Ignatius of Antioch, "The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 52.

It doesn't seem proper, that one who follows our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, should be referring to anyone as worthless. Our Lord died for everyone, making it impossible for any to be worthless. Nor does it seem proper to rejoice over the destruction of the ungodly.

Ezk 18:31  Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Ezk 33:10  Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live? 11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Our Lord has appeared, and been seen in vision, in bodily form. Surely He is not restricted in any sense as such, nevertheless He has manifested Himself in such form to us several times.

Gen 3:8  And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

Gen 18:1  And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; 2  And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, 3  And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant: 4  Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree: 5  And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said. 6  And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth. 7  And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it. 8  And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat. 9  And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent. 10  And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him. 11  Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women. 12  Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also? 13  And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old? 14  Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son. 15  Then Sarah denied, saying, I laughed not; for she was afraid. And he said, Nay; but thou didst laugh. 16  And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way. 17  And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; 18  Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19  For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him. 20  [v]And the LORD said[/b], Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21  I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

Gen 32:24  And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. 25  And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. 26  And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27  And 28  And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. 29  And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. 30  And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Jos 5:13  And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? 14  And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? 15  And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

Ezk 1:4  And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire. 5  Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man. 6  And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings. 7  And their feet were straight feet; and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf's foot: and they sparkled like the colour of burnished brass. 8  And they had the hands of a man under their wings on their four sides; and they four had their faces and their wings. 9 Their wings were joined one to another; they turned not when they went; they went every one straight forward. 10 As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle. 11 Thus were their faces: and their wings were stretched upward; two wings of every one were joined one to another, and two covered their bodies. 12 And they went every one straight forward: whither the spirit was to go, they went; and they turned not when they went. 13 As for the likeness of the living creatures, their appearance was like burning coals of fire, and like the appearance of lamps: it went up and down among the living creatures; and the fire was bright, and out of the fire went forth lightning. 14 And the living creatures ran and returned as the appearance of a flash of lightning. 15 Now as I beheld the living creatures, behold one wheel upon the earth by the living creatures, with his four faces. 16 The appearance of the wheels and their work was like unto the colour of a beryl: and they four had one likeness: and their appearance and their work was as it were a wheel in the middle of a wheel. 17 When they went, they went upon their four sides: and they turned not when they went. 18 As for their rings, they were so high that they were dreadful; and their rings were full of eyes round about them four. 19 And when the living creatures went, the wheels went by them: and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up. 20 Whithersoever the spirit was to go, they went, thither was their spirit to go; and the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels. 21 When those went, these went; and when those stood, these stood; and when those were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels. 22 And the likeness of the firmament upon the heads of the living creature was as the colour of the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above. 23 And under the firmament were their wings straight, the one toward the other: every one had two, which covered on this side, and every one had two, which covered on that side, their bodies. 24 And when they went, I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise of great waters, as the voice of the Almighty, the voice of speech, as the noise of an host: when they stood, they let down their wings. 25 And there was a voice from the firmament that was over their heads, when they stood, and had let down their wings. 26 And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it. 27 And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about. 28  As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

: Amo  Tue Feb 10, 2026 - 09:49:19Interesting comment concerning those martyred becoming angels. Probably just a figure of speech, as I am not aware of such teaching from scripture or otherwise in the early church.

martyrdoms false prophecy oral tradtion s dying mankind


The Original Meaning of "Martyr" The Greek  word μάρτυς (martys) literally means "witness." Nothing more and nothing less.

The law of interpretation protects the one "author" and "finisher ""the one who gives his understanding --- do not add new meaning to one word. . It can change all the loving commandments.  Found in Deuteronomy 4:2 another at the end(Rev22) do not add or subtract. 

Two witnesses  working to protect the integrity of Christ the invisible author. The just and justifier our Holy father Christ

A martyr is anyone who testifies to the truth of God's Word, often at the cost of their life, but the emphasis is on faithful witness, not the act of dying itself.----all die in the end

In Sola Scriptural John the Baptist, Stephen, and the apostles were martyrs because they witnessed God's truth, even unto death. 

Institutional confusion---- Catholic oral tradition emphasizes suffering or death as a kind of works-righteousness making dying mankind venerable, praise worthy of prayer . .

This can falsely lead to a mindset where the act of dying for faith becomes a venerable merit, rather than faithfulness of Christ being the witness---  yoked with Christ .

True Christian witness is faithful living-- testifying to sola scriptura God's Word not achieving reward through martyrdom. In that way "let the dead bury the dead

"All Believers Are "Martyrs" in the true biblical sense. Every believer who testifies to God's living word--- whether through preaching , obedience, or enduring persecution, is a witness.(martyr )

Death may or may not occur, but the  key is faithful testimony. Christ in us In that sense, all believers are martyrs, because every life lived in obedience is a testimony to God.

The unseen witness of Christ must be mixed with that which is seen the temporal historical dying .  No unseen gospel version as a parable is given to the father of lies .Not subject to the gospel . .His vision the tip of his lying nose what the eyes see  no hidden manna-- daily bread no understanding of the parables 

We will now move on to the  -

THE EPISTLE OF IGNATIUS TO THE MAGNESIANS

CHAP. II.—I REJOICE IN YOUR MESSENGERS.

Since, then, I have had the privilege of seeing you, through Damas your most worthy bishop, and through your worthy presbyters Bassus and Apollonius, and through my fellow-servant the deacon Sotio, whose friendship may I ever enjoy, inasmuch as he, by the grace of God, is subject to the bishop and presbytery, in the law of Jesus Christ, [I now write to you].

Ignatius of Antioch, "The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 59.

Interesting, as there actually is no law of Jesus Christ pertaining to bishops or a presbytery. As there were no bishops or that referred to as a presbytery during His days among us. Rather the Old Covenant system of leadership and organization. With which He was continually in conflict, as they had wandered far from proper biblical leadership, as our Lord and His apostles predicted a great deal of New Covenant leadership would as well. Therefore they also firmly established the word of God through our Lord, His prophets, and apostles, as the final word and standard regarding all issues or questions of authority. Not mere men in supposedly high positions above all others, who are themsleves sinners and therefore susceptible to corruption just like the rest of us. As the many examples in Holy Scripture of such, not to mention history, have clearly demonstrated.

CHAP. III.—HONOUR YOUR YOUTHFUL BISHOP.

Now it becomes you also not to despise the age of your bishop, but to yield him all reverence, according to the will of God the Father, as I have known even holy presbyters do, not having regard to the manifest youth [of their bishop], but to his knowledge in God; inasmuch as "not the ancient are [necessarily] wise, nor do the aged understand prudence; but there is a spirit in men." For Daniel the wise, at twelve years of age, became possessed of the divine Spirit, and convicted the elders, who in vain carried their grey hairs, of being false accusers, and of lusting after the beauty of another man's wife. Samuel also, when he was but a little child, reproved Eli, who was ninety years old, for giving honour to his sons rather than to God. In like manner, Jeremiah also received this message from God, "Say not, I am a child." Solomon too, and Josiah, [exemplified the same thing.] The former, being made king at twelve years of age, gave that terrible and difficult judgment in the case of the two women concerning their children. The latter, coming to the throne when eight years old, cast down the altars and temples [of the idols], and burned down the groves, for they were dedicated to demons, and not to God. And he slew the false priests, as the corrupters and deceivers of men, and not the worshippers of the Deity. Wherefore youth is not to be despised when it is devoted to God. But he is to be despised who is of a wicked mind, although he be old, and full of wicked days. Timothy the Christ-bearer was young, but hear what his teacher writes to him: "Let no man despise thy youth, but be thou an example of the believers in word and in conduct." It is becoming, therefore, that ye also should be obedient to your bishop, and contradict him in nothing; for it is a fearful thing to contradict any such person. For no one does [by such conduct] deceive him that is visible, but does [in reality] seek to mock Him that is invisible, who, however, cannot be mocked by any one. And every such act has respect not to man, but to God. For God says to Samuel, "They have not mocked thee, but Me." And Moses declares, "For their murmuring is not against us, but against the Lord God." No one of those has, [in fact,] remained unpunished, who rose up against their superiors. For Dathan and Abiram did not speak against the law, but against Moses, and were cast down alive into Hades. Korah also, and the two hundred and fifty who conspired with him against Aaron, were destroyed by fire. Absalom, again, who had slain his brother, became suspended on a tree, and had his evil-designing heart thrust through with darts. In like manner was Abeddadan beheaded for the same reason. Uzziah, when he presumed to oppose the priests and the priesthood, was smitten with leprosy. Saul also was dishonoured, because he did not wait for Samuel the high priest. It behoves you, therefore, also to reverence your superiors.

Ignatius of Antioch, "The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 60.

Wow. I wonder just how young the bishop Ignatius is demanding all submit to, actually was? I'm not so sure about the way Ignatius used or applied the scriptures concerning very young prophets or kings. We know from history that later on, many obtained high offices within the church by purchasing the positions, or other fraudulent or unbiblical means. Though we do not know anything about this case Ignatius is addressing. Nevertheless, Ignatius definitely inappropriately applied examples of disobedience to prophets and or kings in the older years of their lives, to his position concerning an apparently very young bishop. Thereby falsely supporting his request.

I would say Ignatius unbalanced and unbiblical views in relation to the exaltation of the Bishopric, is my main beef with his writings. As they unquestionably aided the attitude which led to the false position of a universal bishop above all others, between Christ and the rest of the church, and an unhealthy submissiveness of an ill invented laity to bishops as well. There is nothing wrong with being obedient to your bishop when their teachings and leadership are in line with biblical teaching and standards. There most certainly is something wrong with obeying or contradicting them in nothing though, when they are not. Duh!

CHAP. IV.—SOME WICKEDLY ACT INDEPENDENTLY OF THE BISHOP

It is fitting, then, not only to be called Christians, but to be so in reality. For it is not the being called so, but the being really so, that renders a man blessed. To those who indeed talk of the bishop, but do all things without him, will He who is the true and first Bishop, and the only High Priest by nature, declare, "Why call ye Me Lord, and do not the things which I say?" For such persons seem to me not possessed of a good conscience, but to be simply dissemblers and hypocrites.

Ignatius of Antioch, "The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 61.

Ignatius again, suggesting that doing things without the bishop and or his knowledge I reckon, is the equivalent of disobeying our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

CHAP. V.—DEATH IS THE FATE OF ALL SUCH.

Seeing, then, all things have an end, and there is set before us life upon our observance [of God's precepts], but death as the result of disobedience, and every one, according to the choice he makes, shall go to his own place, let us flee from death, and make choice of life. For I remark, that two different characters are found among men—the one true coin, the other spurious. The truly devout man is the right kind of coin, stamped by God Himself. The ungodly man, again, is false coin, unlawful, spurious, counterfeit, wrought not by God, but by the devil. I do not mean to say that there are two different human natures, but that there is one humanity, sometimes belonging to God, and sometimes to the devil. If any one is truly religious, he is a man of God; but if he is irreligious, he is a man of the devil, made such, not by nature, but by his own choice. The unbelieving bear the image of the prince of wickedness. The believing possess the image of their Prince, God the Father, and Jesus Christ, through whom, if we are not in readiness to die for the truth into His passion, His life is not in us.

Ignatius of Antioch, "The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 61.

The above testimony is basic truth. The problem with it, is the prior context it is in relation to. That is, passive submission to another sinful human being in the place of God, called a bishop. Whom none are to contradict in anything, but rather to look upon as though they were God Himself. As the very next chapter will make crystal clear.

CHAP. VI.—PRESERVE HARMONY.

Since therefore I have, in the persons before mentioned, beheld the whole multitude of you in faith and love, I exhort you to study to do all things with a divine harmony, while your bishop presides in the place of God, and your presbyters in the place of the assembly of the apostles, along with your deacons, who are most dear to me, and are entrusted with the ministry of Jesus Christ. He, being begotten by the Father before the beginning of time, was God the Word, the only-begotten Son, and remains the same for ever; for "of His kingdom there shall be no end," says Daniel the prophet. Let us all therefore love one another in harmony, and let no one look upon his neighbour according to the flesh, but in Christ Jesus. Let nothing exist among you which may divide you; but be ye united with your bishop, being through him subject to God in Christ.

Ignatius of Antioch, "The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 61.

Ah yes, unity. The bishop is God, the presbyters along with the deacons, and the laity are to be passively submissive to them unto unity. Interesting how this slight deviation from truth, is also always surrounded by other straight up biblical truths in relation Christ, His apostles, and or prophets. Nevertheless it is a deviation, which had and continues to have devastating effect upon what would be authentic Christianity. Rising up into a massive redistribution and or usurpation of authority by sinful men lording themsleves over the deceived masses that submitted to them over and above the teachings and or authority of the word of God itself in the past, and still do to this very day. As predicted by our Lord, His prophets, and apostles in Holy Scripture as well. Just one of these predictions should suffice for now, as it speaks directly to exactly what Ignatius taught in relation to the exaltation of the bishopric to the place of God.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

And where is the New Covenant Temple of God, but within the individual believer and the corporate body of the church of Christ as well.

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

And what does bishop Ignatius teach, but that every member of the Church of Christ should look upon the bishop as though he were God. And what does this teaching do, but place the bishop atop the church as though he were God, among and above the rest of the temple of which his passively submissive subjects are. And what does it mean when the bishop of Antioch declares that bishops should be looked upon and obeyed as though they were God themselves, but that all should look upon the one making this claim as though he were God himself. And so was and is biblical prophecy fulfilled among all professed believers  who have done and continue to do so. So be it, as God's prophets have testified.

The following links provides historical information relevant to the subject of bishops and or a universal bishop.

https://www.biblelightinfo.com/Extravagantes.htm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7koHN45OBc&t=19s

CHAP. VII.—DO NOTHING WITHOUT THE BISHOP AND PRESBYTERS.

As therefore the Lord does nothing without the Father, for says He, "I can of mine own self do nothing," so do ye, neither presbyter, nor deacon, nor layman, do anything without the bishop. Nor let anything appear commendable to you which is destitute of his approval. For every such thing is sinful, and opposed [to the will of] God. Do ye all come together into the same place for prayer. Let there be one common supplication, one mind, one hope, with faith unblameable in Christ Jesus, than which nothing is more excellent. Do ye all, as one man, run together into the temple of God, as unto one altar, to one Jesus Christ, the High Priest of the unbegotten God.

Ignatius of Antioch, "The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 62.

No need to say anything more about the confirmation of my previous post in the above highlighted deviation from the truths of God's word. Which is of course followed by an exact statement of truth concerning our Lord, Savior, and High Priest, Jesus Christ.

CHAP. IX.—LET US LIVE WITH CHRIST.

If, then, those who were conversant with the ancient Scriptures came to newness of hope, expecting the coming of Christ, as the Lord teaches us when He says, "If ye had believed Moses, ye would have believed Me, for he wrote of Me;" and again, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it, and was glad; for before Abraham was, I am;" how shall we be able to live without Him? The prophets were His servants, and foresaw Him by the Spirit, and waited for Him as their Teacher, and expected Him as their Lord and Saviour, saying, "He will come and save us." Let us therefore no longer keep the Sabbath after the Jewish manner, and rejoice in days of idleness; for "he that does not work, let him not eat." For say the [holy] oracles, "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat thy bread." But let every one of you keep the Sabbath after a spiritual manner, rejoicing in meditation on the law, not in relaxation of the body, admiring the workmanship of God, and not eating things prepared the day before, nor using lukewarm drinks, and walking within a prescribed space, nor finding delight in dancing and plaudits which have no sense in them. And after the observance of the Sabbath, let every friend of Christ keep the Lord's Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days [of the week]. Looking forward to this, the prophet declared, "To the end, for the eighth day," on which our life both sprang up again, and the victory over death was obtained in Christ, whom the children of perdition, the enemies of the Saviour, deny, "whose god is their belly, who mind earthly things," who are "lovers of pleasure, and not lovers of God, having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof." These make merchandise of Christ, corrupting His word, and giving up Jesus to sale: they are corrupters of women, and covetous of other men's possessions, swallowing up wealth insatiably; from whom may ye be delivered by the mercy of God through our Lord Jesus Christ!

Ignatius of Antioch, "The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 62–63.       

In the above, we see Ignatius deviating from Holy Scripture once again, as well as introducing new teachings. He begins to reveal the extra biblical changes introduced that lead up to the setting aside of a commandment of God, in favor of a tradition of men. An exact sin of the scribes and Pharisees, which our Lord directly addressed as a major problem during His days on earth among them. Of course, it always helps to effect such changes, when your followers look upon you and your fellow bishops as though you were God Himself. As Ignatius has already taught this unbiblical deviation that he might gain more followers after himself.

Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. 5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; 6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. 7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Mrk 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. 7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. 10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: 11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. 12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; 13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

While there is and or was nothing wrong with starting a tradition of celebration on the first day of the week in commemoration of our Lord's resurrection in and of itself, replacing God's commanded seventh day sabbath with this tradition, is exactly the problem our Lord Jesus addressed in the above verses concerning such committed by the scribes and pharisees of His day.

Nor was or is it proper for Christians today, to teach as Ignatius did, in contradiction to the fourth commandment of God by teaching that the seventh day should no longer be a day of rest. Suggesting that work for sustenance should be conducted on that day as well, by quoting Gen 3:19 and 2 Thess. 3:10, which say no such thing at all. To which today, is added the extra biblical sabbath replacement teaching, of this first day of the week being the proper day of rest for our Lord's people. I'm not sure what prophet Ignatius referred to concerning the eighth day in reference to Sunday sacredness. I could find no such reference in Holy Scripture.

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

After Ignatius declared that the seventh day sabbath was no longer to be a day of rest, he stated that the recently created tradition of Sunday celebrations of the resurrection, were upon "the queen and chief of all the days [of the week]". This teaching exalting as it were a sacredness of Sunday, was and remains a completely extra biblical teaching. All of the above also completely contradicting our Lord and Saviors following authoritative teaching in the book of Mathew chapter five.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Therefore, will not Ignatius himself be among those who shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven. Nevertheless, even this "Church Father", had not yet preached doing away with the fourth commandment of God, or replacing the seventh day sabbath with a first day one. This honor belongs to the Popes and Vatican of the Roman Catholic Church. As the Popes themselves took the place of the Roman Pontifex Maximus' of the Roman Empire. For although the first professed Christian Roman Emperor and Pontifex Maximus Constantine established the first Sunday law for his empire, this law did not include an exclusion of seventh day sabbath observance according to God's commandment. It was the Catholic church and Popes which first began to forbid its observance by their adherents.

Roman Pontifex Maximus Constantine 321 A.D.
"One the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country however persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits because it often happens that another day is not suitable for gain-sowing or vine planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost. (Given the 7th day of March, Crispus and Constantine being consuls each of them the second time." Codex Justinianus, lib. 3, tit. 12, 3; translated in History of the Christian Church, Philip Schaff, D.D., (7-vol.ed.) Vol. III, p.380. New York, 1884

The Synod of Laodicea - 343-381 A.D. - furnishes a decree which is quoted by many:
"Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday [Sabbatum is always used for the Sabbath and is translated Saturday in the English edition of Hefele], but shall work on that day; but the Lord's-day they shall especially honor, and as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing they shall be shut out from Christ. (Canon 29, Hefele, Vol. 2, p. 316.)

Pope Gregory I (AD 590-604) said :
"Gregory, bishop by the grace of God to his well-beloved sons, the Roman citizens: It has come to me that certain men of perverse spirit have disseminated among you things depraved and opposed to the holy faith, so that they forbid anything to be done on the day of the Sabbath. What shall I call them except preachers of anti-Christ?." Epistles of Gregory I, b.13, epist.1, found in Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers.

The official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church today, is found in their Catechism. Which is, that their Sunday sacredness tradition, has replaced the fourth commandment of God.

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

Sunday- fulfillment of the sabbath
2175 Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ's Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man's eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ:[107]
Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, no longer keeping the sabbath, but the Lord's Day, in which our life is blessed by him and by his death.[108]

2190 The sabbath, which represented the completion of the first creation, has been replaced by Sunday which recalls the new creation inaugurated by the Resurrection of Christ.

Most of professed Christianity today, has also chosen the Sunday rest law of the first Christian professing Roman Pontifex Maximus, over and above the fourth commandment rest of God as well. A great many of them enforce the Roman law by their own nation's laws today. A great many more, also wish to do so in this nation and as many as possible around the world.

Millions today also believe that this trend will only increase, and create a final crisis between the proponents of either faith. That is those who have chosen the day of the Roman Pontifex Maximus and believe in enforcing its observance upon all within entire nations if not the world, and those who choose to keep the seventh day sabbath of the Lord God of Holy Scripture in accordance with their own free will and God given liberty of conscience. Time will of course testify to the truth of this scenario, or not.

: Amo  Sat Aug 01, 2026 - 15:41:54In the above, we see Ignatius deviating from Holy Scripture once again, as well as introducing new teachings. He begins to reveal the extra biblical changes introduced that lead up to the setting aside of a commandment of God, in favor of a tradition of men. An exact sin of the scribes and Pharisees, which our Lord directly addressed as a major problem during His days on earth among them. Of course, it always helps to effect such changes, when your followers look upon you and your fellow bishops as though you were God Himself. As Ignatius has already taught this unbiblical deviation that he might gain more followers after himself.

Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. 5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; 6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. 7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Mrk 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. 7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. 10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: 11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. 12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; 13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

While there is and or was nothing wrong with starting a tradition of celebration on the first day of the week in commemoration of our Lord's resurrection in and of itself, replacing God's commanded seventh day sabbath with this tradition, is exactly the problem our Lord Jesus addressed in the above verses concerning such committed by the scribes and pharisees of His day.

Nor was or is it proper for Christians today, to teach as Ignatius did, in contradiction to the fourth commandment of God by teaching that the seventh day should no longer be a day of rest. Suggesting that work for sustenance should be conducted on that day as well, by quoting Gen 3:19 and 2 Thess. 3:10, which say no such thing at all. To which today, is added the extra biblical sabbath replacement teaching, of this first day of the week being the proper day of rest for our Lord's people. I'm not sure what prophet Ignatius referred to concerning the eighth day in reference to Sunday sacredness. I could find no such reference in Holy Scripture.

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

After Ignatius declared that the seventh day sabbath was no longer to be a day of rest, he stated that the recently created tradition of Sunday celebrations of the resurrection, were upon "the queen and chief of all the days [of the week]". This teaching exalting as it were a sacredness of Sunday, was and remains a completely extra biblical teaching. All of the above also completely contradicting our Lord and Saviors following authoritative teaching in the book of Mathew chapter five.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Therefore, will not Ignatius himself be among those who shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven. Nevertheless, even this "Church Father", had not yet preached doing away with the fourth commandment of God, or replacing the seventh day sabbath with a first day one. This honor belongs to the Popes and Vatican of the Roman Catholic Church. As the Popes themselves took the place of the Roman Pontifex Maximus' of the Roman Empire. For although the first professed Christian Roman Emperor and Pontifex Maximus Constantine established the first Sunday law for his empire, this law did not include an exclusion of seventh day sabbath observance according to God's commandment. It was the Catholic church and Popes which first began to forbid its observance by their adherents.

The official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church today, is found in their Catechism. Which is, that their Sunday sacredness tradition, has replaced the fourth commandment of God.

Most of professed Christianity today, has also chosen the Sunday rest law of the first Christian professing Roman Pontifex Maximus, over and above the fourth commandment rest of God as well. A great many of them enforce the Roman law by their own nation's laws today. A great many more, also wish to do so in this nation and as many as possible around the world.

Millions today also believe that this trend will only increase, and create a final crisis between the proponents of either faith. That is those who have chosen the day of the Roman Pontifex Maximus and believe in enforcing its observance upon all within entire nations if not the world, and those who choose to keep the seventh day sabbath of the Lord God of Holy Scripture in accordance with their own free will and God given liberty of conscience. Time will of course testify to the truth of this scenario, or not.

I would make one distinction.

The command itself is moral: "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy." But the second half of the fourth commandment is presented as a parable with two different God-given explanations.

In Exodus 20, the reason is creation: God rested on the seventh day after His finished work.

In Deuteronomy 5, the reason is redemption: Israel is to remember that God delivered them from Egypt with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm.

The command does not change, but the Holy Spirit gives two different reasons because both point beyond the literal day. One points back to creation, the other points forward to redemption in Christ. Egypt becomes a picture of this present evil world, and the Exodus becomes a picture of Christ leading His people into His eternal rest.

This is how parables work. One command, two witnesses, revealing a deeper spiritual reality.

The other moral commandments do not have this same parabolic structure. "Thou shalt not kill" means exactly that. Murder is literal. "Thou shalt not commit adultery" is a literal moral command. Honor for parents is literal. They remain abiding moral laws.

The Sabbath command is unique because God Himself supplies two different historical foundations—creation and redemption. Those two witnesses invite us to compare Scripture with Scripture and see Christ, who is the true rest of His people.

Hebrews 4 brings those two witnesses together, showing that God's rest was never merely about one twenty-four-hour day but ultimately about entering His rest through faith in Christ.

: garee  Sun Aug 02, 2026 - 11:44:26I would make one distinction.

The command itself is moral: "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy." But the second half of the fourth commandment is presented as a parable with two different God-given explanations.

In Exodus 20, the reason is creation: God rested on the seventh day after His finished work.

In Deuteronomy 5, the reason is redemption: Israel is to remember that God delivered them from Egypt with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm.

The command does not change, but the Holy Spirit gives two different reasons because both point beyond the literal day. One points back to creation, the other points forward to redemption in Christ. Egypt becomes a picture of this present evil world, and the Exodus becomes a picture of Christ leading His people into His eternal rest.

This is how parables work. One command, two witnesses, revealing a deeper spiritual reality.

The other moral commandments do not have this same parabolic structure. "Thou shalt not kill" means exactly that. Murder is literal. "Thou shalt not commit adultery" is a literal moral command. Honor for parents is literal. They remain abiding moral laws.

The Sabbath command is unique because God Himself supplies two different historical foundations—creation and redemption. Those two witnesses invite us to compare Scripture with Scripture and see Christ, who is the true rest of His people.

Hebrews 4 brings those two witnesses together, showing that God's rest was never merely about one twenty-four-hour day but ultimately about entering His rest through faith in Christ.

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Deu 5:12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee. 13 Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work: 14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou. 15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

Both of the above commandments are truth. Neither one negates the other. The first commandment was spoken by God Himself to the entire nation of Israel, and written in tables of stone with the finger of God as well. Without the fundamental stated truth in the fourth commandment spoken by God, the commandment later spoken by Moses by way of remembrance, would fall short of the magnitude of God's greatness and mercy in the creation and redemption of this world. Which includes His right to proclaim Himself to be either one. Moses expounded upon the greater depth of meaning the seventh day sabbath represents, as other scriptures do as well.

Exodus 20 is not about creation, but rather the Creator. His ten commandments, spoken by His own mouth as moral standards of the most crucial nature, for fallen humanity. They are held up as the standard regarding the judgment of this world, right up to the last book and chapter of Holy Scripture. The fourth commandment also means exactly what it states, as God stated it. It is not broken down as a parable anywhere, but by you and or the others you have taken this extra biblical teaching from, I can only presume in order to excuse yourself from not keeping the commandment itself.

Nor is it true that the other commandments are not expounded upon within Holy Scripture as well. As to having deeper meaning than that simply stated in the commandment itself. God is spirit, as are his commandments, and all the truth He represents. All His words have deeper meaning and represent greater power than we can even now comprehend.

Jhn 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. 21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. 25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing. 27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Who do you think the Creator of this world is, Who has commanded those who worship Him to keep His sabbath?

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Mrk 2:28  Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Luk 6:5  And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Therefore, whose sabbath or commandment do professed Christians not observe or keep, having been extra biblically taught to do so? And who has originally taught them to disobey the commandment of God because doing so will make them more like God?

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. 24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. 25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. 26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. 27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

2 Thess 2:1 But relative to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) and our gathering together to [meet] Him, we beg you, brethren, 2 Not to allow your minds to be quickly unsettled or disturbed or kept excited or alarmed, whether it be by some [pretended] revelation of [the] Spirit or by word or by letter [alleged to be] from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has [already] arrived and is here. 3 Let no one deceive or beguile you in any way, for that day will not come except the apostasy comes first [unless the predicted great falling away of those who have professed to be Christians has come], and the man of lawlessness (sin) is revealed, who is the son of doom (of perdition), 4 Who opposes and exalts himself so proudly and insolently against and over all that is called God or that is worshiped, [even to his actually] taking his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming that he himself is God.(AMPC)

Yes, God in Christ Jesus the Lord, is our Creator and Redeemer.

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Who can be forgiven of their sins, while they will not acknowledge their sins as sin? Who will ask forgiveness of a sin, which they think to be no sin? Who will keep a commandment of God, they have been taught should no longer be kept, which they have believed? Who believing such, would confess it as sin, or seek to keep said commandment?

1Jn 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

What did our Lord and savior teach and practice regarding the fourth and all the rest of the commandments of God? How shall those who do not seek His standard of righteousness in their lives, or confess their sins regarding them, hope to be saved?

1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Again, who will confess a sin, or breaking of a commandment of God, who thinks such to be no sin? Are these not in danger?

: Amo  Mon Aug 03, 2026 - 05:40:22Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Deu 5:12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee. 13 Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work: 14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou. 15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

Both of the above commandments are truth. Neither one negates the other. The first commandment was spoken by God Himself to the entire nation of Israel, and written in tables of stone with the finger of God as well. Without the fundamental stated truth in the fourth commandment spoken by God, the commandment later spoken by Moses by way of remembrance, would fall short of the magnitude of God's greatness and mercy in the creation and redemption of this world. Which includes His right to proclaim Himself to be either one. Moses expounded upon the greater depth of meaning the seventh day sabbath represents, as other scriptures do as well.

Exodus 20 is not about creation, but rather the Creator. His ten commandments, spoken by His own mouth as moral standards of the most crucial nature, for fallen humanity. They are held up as the standard regarding the judgment of this world, right up to the last book and chapter of Holy Scripture. The fourth commandment also means exactly what it states, as God stated it. It is not broken down as a parable anywhere, but by you and or the others you have taken this extra biblical teaching from, I can only presume in order to excuse yourself from not keeping the commandment itself.

Nor is it true that the other commandments are not expounded upon within Holy Scripture as well. As to having deeper meaning than that simply stated in the commandment itself. God is spirit, as are his commandments, and all the truth He represents. All His words have deeper meaning and represent greater power than we can even now comprehend.

Jhn 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. 21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. 25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing. 27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Who do you think the Creator of this world is, Who has commanded those who worship Him to keep His sabbath?

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Mrk 2:28  Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Luk 6:5  And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Therefore, whose sabbath or commandment do professed Christians not observe or keep, having been extra biblically taught to do so? And who has originally taught them to disobey the commandment of God because doing so will make them more like God?

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. 24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. 25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. 26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. 27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

2 Thess 2:1 But relative to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) and our gathering together to [meet] Him, we beg you, brethren, 2 Not to allow your minds to be quickly unsettled or disturbed or kept excited or alarmed, whether it be by some [pretended] revelation of [the] Spirit or by word or by letter [alleged to be] from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has [already] arrived and is here. 3 Let no one deceive or beguile you in any way, for that day will not come except the apostasy comes first [unless the predicted great falling away of those who have professed to be Christians has come], and the man of lawlessness (sin) is revealed, who is the son of doom (of perdition), 4 Who opposes and exalts himself so proudly and insolently against and over all that is called God or that is worshiped, [even to his actually] taking his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming that he himself is God.(AMPC)

Yes, God in Christ Jesus the Lord, is our Creator and Redeemer.

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Who can be forgiven of their sins, while they will not acknowledge their sins as sin? Who will ask forgiveness of a sin, which they think to be no sin? Who will keep a commandment of God, they have been taught should no longer be kept, which they have believed? Who believing such, would confess it as sin, or seek to keep said commandment?

1Jn 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

What did our Lord and savior teach and practice regarding the fourth and all the rest of the commandments of God? How shall those who do not seek His standard of righteousness in their lives, or confess their sins regarding them, hope to be saved?

1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Again, who will confess a sin, or breaking of a commandment of God, who thinks such to be no sin? Are these not in danger?

The danger comes when men add to the Word of God without acknowledging that "without a parable spake he not unto them" (Matthew 13:34). Christ's parables do not remove the historical account; they reveal the unseen, spiritual gospel hidden within it.

The ceremonial laws themselves were shadows pointing to Christ. They were never an end in themselves but served as God's teaching pictures until their fulfillment.

Aaron's two sons provide a solemn warning. They added what God had not commanded by offering strange fire, and God judged them immediately. The lesson is that we must not add our own inventions to God's revealed worship. Human additions cannot improve what God has already spoken.

The Sabbath is another example. The word simply means rest. As born-again believers, we enter God's eternal rest whenever we hear His voice and refuse to harden our hearts.

Hebrews 4:3 (KJV)

"For we which have believed do enter into rest..."

The writer of Hebrews points beyond the shadow to its fulfillment in Christ. The Sabbath was never merely about one day; it testified beforehand of God's eternal rest in His Son.

Translation can also influence how we understand these passages.

Matthew 28:1 (KJV)

"In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week..."

Matthew 28:1 (Young's Literal Translation)

"And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre."

Likewise,

Luke 18:12 (YLT)

"I fast twice in the week..."

Here it is helpful to remember the languages of Scripture. The Hebrew word for week is שָׁבוּעַ (shābûaʿ), meaning a period of seven. It is used in places such as Genesis 29:27 and Daniel 9:24.

The New Testament, however, was written in Greek. In passages such as Matthew 28:1 and Luke 18:12, the inspired writers did not use a Greek equivalent corresponding to the Hebrew shābûaʿ. Instead, they used σάββατον (sabbaton), a word derived from the Hebrew shabbat, meaning Sabbath or rest.

Because Jewish time was commonly reckoned from one Sabbath to the next, many English translations render sabbaton as "week" in certain contexts. Yet the inspired text itself continues to use the word connected with Sabbath.

I believe this repeated use of sabbaton keeps the reader's attention on God's rest rather than on a mere calendar cycle. The emphasis is not simply counting seven days but entering the rest to which the Sabbath pointed.

The Pharisee in Luke 18 illustrates the danger of missing that spiritual meaning.

"I fast twice..."

His confidence rested in his religious performance. He measured righteousness by works rather than by God's mercy. The lesson is not about earning favor through repeated observances but about trusting God's provision.

The Reformation spoken of in Hebrews points believers away from confidence in ceremonial works and toward Christ Himself. We rest, not because our works save us, but because His finished work is sufficient.

The visible Sabbath pointed to an invisible and eternal reality. The shadow remains a beautiful testimony, but the substance belongs to Christ. As born-again believers, we enter that seventh-day rest whenever we hear His voice, believe His Word, and cease from trusting in our own works, resting instead in the finished work of our Lord.

The danger comes when men add to the Word of God without acknowledging that "without a parable spake he not unto them" (Matthew 13:34). Christ's parables do not remove the historical account; they reveal the unseen, spiritual gospel hidden within it.

Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: 35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

A fine example of personal interpretation. Taking one instance concerning a fulfillment of prophecy, and applying it everywhere. Or moreover, wherever it conveniently supports one's extra biblical notions. That one verse you quote, does not, and was not meant to convey the idea that everything Jesus spake or taught was meant to be a parable.

The ceremonial laws themselves were shadows pointing to Christ. They were never an end in themselves but served as God's teaching pictures until their fulfillment.

We are not discussing ceremonial laws or law, rather the moral law of God contained in the Ten Commandments of God. Nevertheless, you are of course free to believe as you wish, as we have already been discussing this issue at -

https://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php?topic=61496.910

Aaron's two sons provide a solemn warning. They added what God had not commanded by offering strange fire, and God judged them immediately. The lesson is that we must not add our own inventions to God's revealed worship. Human additions cannot improve what God has already spoken.

I agree. So why are you adding the idea that Christ spoke only in parables all the time, to Holy scripture? And then applying that to the giving of God's Ten Commandments to Old covenant Israel as well? As though your private decision to do so, were some kind of unction from God or biblical principle which must be applied everywhere? Or moreover, when and where you see fit. Why are you doing exactly what your words above are warning everyone else not to do?

The Sabbath is another example. The word simply means rest. As born-again believers, we enter God's eternal rest whenever we hear His voice and refuse to harden our hearts.

Yes, I would say that is true. But we are not discussing just the simple meaning of the word Sabbath. We are discussing the fourth commandment of God, as spoken by His own mouth, and written in tables of stone twice with His own finger. God Himself having added far more meaning and depth to a specific rest He has commanded, which is often addressed and expounded upon by Holy scripture itself. To the effect than none are bound by your particular private interpretations or applications concerning it and parables, apparently. Those who keep God's seventh day Sabbath acknowledge the truths proclaimed in that commandment, those who do not, apparently do not. God is the creator, sustainer, and redeemer of this world and everyone in it. And as such He has commanded that among other more in-depth spiritual applications to the sinners life, they are to acknowledge this truth every seventh day of the week. That they might not lose sight of this most crucial element of truth, and always properly understand exactly who God is to them, and who they are to Him. As we are all so very prone to the many troubles associated with forgetting this crucial element of every single life on this planet.

Much of what you say regarding the sabbath is true. Nor is it likely anything new, that most on these boards have not already heard, know,  and or understand. What your overall message is suggesting though is false. That the seventh day sabbath of God is just part of the ceremonial laws, and or shadows of the real. Therefore also done away with as the ceremonial laws of Israel, or simply suggestive of greater truths or realities as only shadows of the same. Such things as are meant to be fulfilled in a manner that basically replaces them. This is not true regarding the Ten Commandments of God though, as they are a standard which cannot be removed, which is exactly why our Lord had to die for us in the first place. Because they could not be changed or done away with, demanding the death of those who have broken them. They could not change then, and they most certainly will not change now, that the infinite cost of the life of God's only begotten Son has been given to those who could not and will not be saved from the condemnation of the law otherwise.

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

No one establishes any laws by ignoring them, or refusing to keep them.

Hebrews 4:3 (KJV)

"For we which have believed do enter into rest..."

The writer of Hebrews points beyond the shadow to its fulfillment in Christ. The Sabbath was never merely about one day; it testified beforehand of God's eternal rest in His Son.

There is no talk of shadows in Hebrews chapter four. You have added this concept to those scriptures. Why do you want to add your own private beliefs to the word of God concerning what Hebrews chapter four addresses? Why do you want to travel the road of Aaron's sons, by tampering with the Holy Word of God?

The subjects being addressed in Hebrews chapter four are present tense realities regarding the dangers God's own have faced all throughout their experience, which will continue to the end. That is, the exercise of a most crucial element of one's salvation, faith in God's word. As we all enter into God's rest, by faith in His word, which the Holy Scriptures are. Which the sabbath commandment is a sign of as well, concerning the most basic faith necessary to our salvation. That God is exactly who He claims to be in His fourth commandment, our Creator, who supernaturally created the heavens and earth in six days. Those who lack this basic fundamental foundation of biblical faith, are in danger of disregarding other fundamental truths tied directly to it as well. The implications of this fundamental lack of faith, distorting the gospel of Jesus Christ itself, seriously impeding the faith of many according to the improper understanding of Holy Scripture which such ultimately causes.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

In Hebrews chapter eleven, the faith chapter, the supernatural event of creation by the word of God is the first fundamental foundational faith set forth. This is the exact truth the fourth commandment of God upholds before all believers, not as a shadow of anything, but rather as the continuous basic fundamental biblical faith for all creation at all times. It is the foundational truth of resting in God, apart from whim there is nothing, including us. Everything Holy Scripture addresses, is in direct relation to this event and forward. Even those scriptures addressing time and or events before this world, are not separate from God's eternal purposes in the creation of this world, and the issues that will have been fully addressed and settled for all creation in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Why are you adding meaning to the testimony of Hebrews chapter four, which it is not addressing? As in shadows of things no longer relevant, being replaced by that which they only represented? Hebrews chapter four is not addressing such things.

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

The above opening verse of Hebrews four is present tense for the church. Addressing the age old problem of a lack of faith.

Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

Again, the issue is not regarding some bygone shadow which has been replaced by being fulfilled, but one concerning the church itself as well.

Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Why would any of the above, or anything in Hebrews chapter four, ever be construed to imply that God's fourth commandment no longer needs to be observed because it was just a shadow? It does not. Such is suggested nowhere in the context of the chapter. To the contrary, one of the main points of the chapter is to point out the unlimited power of the word of God. Which is most awesomely demonstrated in the creation of the heavens and earth by that very word. Which is exactly what God's seventh day sabbath is all about, by establishing this fundamental truth by way of commemoration for all creation every seventh day, from the day it was established and evermore.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Psa 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. 7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. 8 Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. 9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Here it is helpful to remember the languages of Scripture. The Hebrew word for week is שָׁבוּעַ (shābûaʿ), meaning a period of seven. It is used in places such as Genesis 29:27 and Daniel 9:24.

The New Testament, however, was written in Greek. In passages such as Matthew 28:1 and Luke 18:12, the inspired writers did not use a Greek equivalent corresponding to the Hebrew shābûaʿ. Instead, they used σάββατον (sabbaton), a word derived from the Hebrew shabbat, meaning Sabbath or rest.

Because Jewish time was commonly reckoned from one Sabbath to the next, many English translations render sabbaton as "week" in certain contexts. Yet the inspired text itself continues to use the word connected with Sabbath.

I believe this repeated use of sabbaton keeps the reader's attention on God's rest rather than on a mere calendar cycle. The emphasis is not simply counting seven days but entering the rest to which the Sabbath pointed.

The Pharisee in Luke 18 illustrates the danger of missing that spiritual meaning.

"I fast twice..."

His confidence rested in his religious performance. He measured righteousness by works rather than by God's mercy. The lesson is not about earning favor through repeated observances but about trusting God's provision.

The Reformation spoken of in Hebrews points believers away from confidence in ceremonial works and toward Christ Himself. We rest, not because our works save us, but because His finished work is sufficient.

The visible Sabbath pointed to an invisible and eternal reality. The shadow remains a beautiful testimony, but the substance belongs to Christ. As born-again believers, we enter that seventh-day rest whenever we hear His voice, believe His Word, and cease from trusting in our own works, resting instead in the finished work of our Lord.

You may of course believe whatever you wish. Nevertheless, Holy Scripture does not teach what you have above, anywhere at all. Is not bringing such spiritual teaching of private interpretation in to the New Covenant temple God, which is the church, a spiritual equivalent of the act of Aaron's sons. As they brought strange fire before the Lord, "which He had not commanded", are you not bringing strange teachings into the church which our Lord did neither command or teach. While ignoring what He did command and teach in both His fourth commandment, and the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ regarding the commandments of God.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Hopefully, many others will not be in danger of losing their fitness for heaven, by accepting this strange fire you and others have brought into the church. By not believing the fourth commandment of God should be kept any longer, or our Saviors teachings regarding all those who would teach others to break even the least of one of God's commandments.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

CHAP. X.—BEWARE OF JUDAIZING.

Let us not, therefore, be insensible to His kindness. For were He to reward us according to our works, we should cease to be. For "if Thou, Lord, shalt mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?" Let us therefore prove ourselves worthy of that name which we have received. For whosoever is called by any other name besides this, he is not of God; for he has not received the prophecy which speaks thus concerning us: "The people shall be called by a new name, which the Lord shall name them, and shall be a holy people." This was first fulfilled in Syria; for "the disciples were called Christians at Antioch," when Paul and Peter were laying the foundations of the Church. Lay aside, therefore, the evil, the old, the corrupt leaven, and be ye changed into the new leaven of grace. Abide in Christ, that the stranger may not have dominion over you. It is absurd to speak of Jesus Christ with the tongue, and to cherish in the mind a Judaism which has now come to an end. For where there is Christianity there cannot be Judaism. For Christ is one, in whom every nation that believes, and every tongue that confesses, is gathered unto God. And those that were of a stony heart have become the children of Abraham, the friend of God; and in his seed all those have been blessed who were ordained to eternal life in Christ.

Ignatius of Antioch, "The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 63.

An inevitable separation concerning those Jews who chose and still do choose to remain outside of their Messiah the Lord Jesus Christ, the true vine of God's vineyard.

Jhn 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. 9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. 11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. 12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. 13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. 15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. 16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. 17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.

Unfortunately today, there are countless professed Christians, who do not do or even believe in many things which our Lord Jesus taught and therefore also commanded. Many even turned around and committed the persecutions our Lord warned His own would suffer from this world, in the rest of the above quoted chapter.  Proving thereby, that they were not authentic Christians. They persecuted the Jews, and eventually even those who professed Christ, who would not bow down to them, when they had committed spiritual adultery by obtaining the power of the state. Preferring coercion by the state or empire, than the convicting power of the Holy Spirit unto authentic conversion. Demonstrating the spirit of the evil, rather than the Spirit of God.

Jhn 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. 19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. 20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me. 22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin. 23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also. 24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. 25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause. 26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning. Jhn 16:1 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended. 2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that who oever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. 3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

Such Christians throughout history, have not, and do not produce the fruits of God's true nation on earth. The following prediction concerning the Jewish nation is just as applicable to them, as it was to the Jews of our Lord Jesus Christ's days among us. Authentic Christianity loves their brethren, apostate "Christianity" persecutes them.

Mat 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes ? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Nevertheless -

Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Contrary to Ignatius' anti Judaism proclaimed in this chapter, authentic Judaism was never evil, or corrupt leaven. The first "Christians"were in fact Jews, who accepted their Messiah as all Israel was intended to do, according to the oracles of God which He gave them. Those Jews who came to a proper understanding of God's leading in their past, recognized the changes their own oracles from God had predicted in and through our Lord Jesus Christ, the predicted Messiah of the Jews. It was the corruption of a great many Jews themselves, that lead to their rejection of their Messiah. Not corrupt teachings, laws, ceremonies, or prophecies given to them by God. All of which centered around and pointed to Christ Jesus our Lord, and the New Covenant He came to establish through the gospel of Jesus Christ. Which gospel was to the Jew first, and then the Gentile. If all of Israel had accepted their Messiah, things would have certainly turned out very differently.

Today, the title of Christian is professed by an ever widening scope of peoples with very different beliefs, practices, and life styles. More than just a few of which have no biblical foundation, and or even contradict the plain teachings of both the Old and New Testaments. Without question much of Christianity today, as well as throughout history, is and has been every bit as corrupt as a great many Jews were during their day. The New Testament itself predicts this condition of professed believers before our Lord returns. Authentic bible belief and believers transitioned smoothly from the Old to the New Covenant. As authentic bible believers will transition smoothly from this world to the next as well, when our Lord returns to being His own Home with Him. Unfortunately, most will professed Christians will not likely be among them, as most of Israel did not follow their Messiah when He came the first time either.

CHAP. XI.—I WRITE THESE THINGS TO WARN YOU.

These things , my beloved, not that I know any of you to be in such a state; but, as less than any of you, I desire to guard you beforehand, that ye fall not upon the hooks of vain doctrine, but that you may rather attain to a full assurance in Christ, who was begotten by the Father before all ages, but was afterwards born of the Virgin Mary without any intercourse with man. He also lived a holy life, and healed every kind of sickness and disease among the people, and wrought signs and wonders for the benefit of men; and to those who had fallen into the error of polytheism He made known the one and only true God, His Father, and underwent the passion, and endured the cross at the hands of the Christ-killing Jews, under Pontius Pilate the governor and Herod the king. He also died, and rose again, and ascended into the heavens to Him that sent Him, and is sat down at His right hand, and shall come at the end of the world, with His Father's glory, to judge the living and the dead, and to render to every one according to his works. He who knows these things with a full assurance, and believes them, is happy; even as ye are now the lovers of God and of Christ, in the full assurance of our hope, from which may no one of us ever be turned aside!

Ignatius of Antioch, "The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 64.

Any Christian that blames the Jews for our Lords death, rather than their own sins, does not properly understand the gospel of Jesus Christ. Nor did such a statement help at all, when deceived Christinas began to persecute the Jews. As though God had ever called them to do so, or to ever persecute anyone.

: Amo  Sat Aug 08, 2026 - 15:14:43Any Christian that blames the Jews for our Lords death, rather than their own sins, does not properly understand the gospel of Jesus Christ

I think I agree?  The main thing to understand about the "Jews", is that they ALWAYS consisted of a combination of true Jews and false Jews.

It remains to this day

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Tue Aug 11, 2026 - 01:21:28I think I agree?  The main thing to understand about the "Jews", is that they ALWAYS consisted of a combination of true Jews and false Jews.

It remains to this day

Amen. The same principle applies to the word Christian.

Scripture distinguishes between the outward name and the inward work of God.

Romans 2:28–29 (KJV)
"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly... But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit..."

In the same way, calling oneself a Christian outwardly does not make someone born again inwardly.

There has always been a mixture.

The outward name can be put on by mankind.

The new birth can only be worked by God.

Jesus did not say, Ye must take the name Christian.

He said:

John 3:7
"Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again."

That is the difference between outward religion and inward faith.

A church membership cannot perform it.
A denomination cannot perform it.
A sacrament cannot perform it.
Calling ourselves Christian cannot perform it.

"Ye must be born again."

So yes, just as Scripture distinguishes the Jew outwardly from the Jew inwardly, we should distinguish the outward name Christian from the inward reality of being born again.

The visible assembly can be a mixture.

The household of born-again faith is known perfectly by God.

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
John 14:6

Your word is a lamp for my feet,
a light on my path.
Psalm 119:105

Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."
John 14:23
Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.
James 1:22


And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."
Luke 22:19
 
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body."
Matthew 26:26

I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
John 6:51
For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
1 Corinthians 12:13

Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies.
1 Corinthians 6:19-20


Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
Matthew 5:8

Blessed are those who keep his statutes
and seek him with all their heart.
Psalm 119:2

If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God.
1 John 4:15 
Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.
Hebrews 10:23
In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you."
Luke 22:20

If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 10:9

No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
1 John 2:23
Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine.
Exodus 19:5

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!
2 Corinthians 5:17 

Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again."
John 3:3

Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit."
John 3:5
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
1 Peter 1:23
 
For everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.
1 John 5:4

And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1 John 5:11
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one.
John 10:28-30
 
For those who find me find life
and receive favor from the Lord.
Proverbs 8:35
So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.
2 Corinthians 4:18

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
John 17:3

Who is he, this King of glory?
The Lord Almighty—
he is the King of glory.
Psalm 24:10

And every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
Philippians 2:11

 ::amen!::  ::amen!::  ::amen!::

THE EPISTLE OF IGNATIUS TO THE TRALLIANS

CHAP. II.—BE SUBJECT TO THE BISHOP, ETC.

Be ye subject to the bishop as to the Lord, for "he watches for your souls, as one that shall give account to God." Wherefore also, ye appear to me to live not after the manner of men, but according to Jesus Christ, who died for us, in order that, by believing in His death, ye may by baptism be made partakers of His resurrection. It is therefore necessary, whatsoever things ye do, to do nothing without the bishop. And be ye subject also to the presbytery, as to the apostles of Jesus Christ, who is our hope, in whom, if we live, we shall be found in Him. It behoves you also, in every way, to please the deacons, who are [ministers] of the mysteries of Christ Jesus; for they are not ministers of meat and drink, but servants of the Church of God. They are bound, therefore, to avoid all grounds of accusation [against them], as they would a burning fire. Let them, then, prove themselves to be such.

Ignatius of Antioch, "The Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 67.

Nothing new here. The bishops are to be looked upon as God.

CHAP. III.—HONOUR THE DEACONS, ETC.

And do ye reverence them as Christ Jesus, of whose place they are the keepers, even as the bishop is the representative of the Father of all things, and the presbyters are the sanhedrim of God, and assembly of the apostles of Christ. Apart from these there is no elect Church, no congregation of holy ones, no assembly of saints. I am persuaded that ye also are of this opinion. For I have received the manifestation of your love, and still have it with me, in your bishop, whose very appearance is highly instructive, and his meekness of itself a power; whom I imagine even the ungodly must reverence. Loving you as I do, I avoid writing in any severer strain to you, that I may not seem harsh to any, or wanting [in tenderness]. I am indeed bound for the sake of Christ, but I am not yet worthy of Christ. But when I am perfected, perhaps I shall then become so. I do not issue orders like an apostle.

Ignatius of Antioch, "The Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 67.

Unbelievable. Reverence mere sinners such as ourselves, as though they were Jesus Christ. The only man that was God Himself. And the bishop even more so of course, as God the Father. Apart from whom there is no church apparently. Highjacking the place and authority of God Himself through mere men who are supposed to be serving God and the church, not Lording themselves over it. Not that proper respect for such persons is not due, by those who themselves elected such individuals to serve the Church of Christ, by way of Godly example of living and proper authority as selected for such by the members of the church. Why would such authentic leaders of the church seek to become literally antichrist, by teaching that they should be looked upon as our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ Himself, and or our Father in heaven. Blasphemy.

Heb 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. 23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: 24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. 26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. 28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

No. Neither Popes, nor bishops, nor clergy, nor deacons should  be looked upon as God the Son or God the Father.  Nor do any of them stand in either of Their places. Which would of course amount to blasphemy by anyone professing that such was so. Nor can any of them save anyone to the uttermost, living ever to make intercession for us. Nor did any of them die for our salvation as our Lord did, once and for all. Nor are any of them separate from the rest of us sinners, being as completely dependent upon His salvation as all the rest of us. 

Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Nor are two or three gathered in Christ's name, dependent upon them to constitute members of the body and elect church. Among whom our Lord Jesus Christ dwells in the midst of, as our Lord taught in the above verses. Lest manifesting the spirit of antichrist, they consider their own presence as or more necessary than the presence of Christ Jesus our Lord to such effect.

Act 14:8 And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked: 9 The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed, 10 Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked. 11 And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men. 12 And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker. 13 Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people. 14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out, 15 And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein: 16 Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways. 17 Nevertheless he left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness. 18 And with these sayings scarce restrained they the people, that they had not done sacrifice unto them.

The Apostle Paul and Barnabas rent their clothes, denouncing that the people might consider them as gods let alone the God. Immediately protesting and identifying themselves as men of like passions with the rest those who might mistakingly consider them as such. Deploring the thought that some might look upon them in such a manner. Yet Ignatius repeatedly calls upon all Christians to look upon him and all bishops as though they were God Himself. Whether the Father or the Son. And the presbyter or deacons as the Lord Jesus Christ as well. Clearly demonstrating the beginnings of the spirit of antichrist entering the church.

Was reading about
Saint Ignatius of Antioch.
So who was Saint Ignatius?
Saint Ignatius was a Spanish soldier & his leg was shattered by a cannonball in 1521.
After he became confined to bed, he read books about Our Lord Christ & other Saints.

And this changed him completely & he decided to end his career as a military soldier,
& decided to live a life devoted to God.
And he wrote a series of prayers.
Around 107-110 A.D., an Emperor demanded that Christians choose either denouncing the Christian faith or face death.
Saint Ignatius refused to deny Jesus Christ & accepted death instead, as he longed for martyrdom.

And this lead to his arrest & a death sentence.
During his journey to Rome he wrote letters to the Churches,
begging Christians not to try to save him or prevent or interfere with his ex*cution.


Although Saint Ignatius died as a martyr refusing to deny the Christian faith,
then why did he teach the Christians to look upon the Bishop as a representative of Christ Jesus?
In earlier times,
Christians faced ideas that divided them.
So in order to stop the further division he taught the Christians to see the Bishop as a representative of Christ.

He viewed obedience to the Bishop as a way to keep the devout against the fake teachers, who only led Christians away from the Christian faith.
For Saint Ignatius, collecting around the Bishop was like mirroring the unity of an invisible Church in Heaven,
making the presence of Our Lord Jesus Christ

clearly seen in the local community of Christians.

This is what I read about him & Saint Ignatius was a good human being,
who stood up for the Christian faith even giving up his life for it.
From what was given, it seemed as if Saint Ignatius simply asked the Christians to look upon the Bishop

 as a representative for Christ to protect the Christians from getting divided, maintaining the unity of the Church,
& to stand against heresies, during those difficult times when  Christianity & Christians were being persecuted.

Christ was, is & will always remain the Head of every Church & every denomination,
Amen.
May the Holy Spirit bear witness to this story about a good man as Saint Ignatius of Antioch,
Amen.

And there is a huge difference between Saint Ignatius of Antioch & the Anti-christ.
Because Saint Ignatius gave up his life readily refusing to deny the Christian faith.
Whereas the antichrist will take people away from Christ.
And Christ will overthrow all three ...Satan, the false teacher, & the antichrist into the abyss, as divine judgement.

To Christ be the Glory forever,
Amen.

2 Thessalonians 2:8
New International Version
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

Revelation 19:19-20
New International Version
19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false teacher who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

Revelation 13
King James Version
13 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

: pppp  Sat Aug 15, 2026 - 12:17:04Was reading about
Saint Ignatius of Antioch.
So who was Saint Ignatius?
Saint Ignatius was a Spanish soldier & his leg was shattered by a cannonball in 1521.
After he became confined to bed, he read books about Our Lord Christ & other Saints.

And this changed him completely & he decided to end his career as a military soldier,
& decided to live a life devoted to God.
And he wrote a series of prayers.
Around 107-110 A.D., an Emperor demanded that Christians choose either denouncing the Christian faith or face death.
Saint Ignatius refused to deny Jesus Christ & accepted death instead, as he longed for martyrdom.

And this lead to his arrest & a death sentence.
During his journey to Rome he wrote letters to the Churches,
begging Christians not to try to save him or prevent or interfere with his ex*cution.


Although Saint Ignatius died as a martyr refusing to deny the Christian faith,
then why did he teach the Christians to look upon the Bishop as a representative of Christ Jesus?
In earlier times,
Christians faced ideas that divided them.
So in order to stop the further division he taught the Christians to see the Bishop as a representative of Christ.

He viewed obedience to the Bishop as a way to keep the devout against the fake teachers, who only led Christians away from the Christian faith.
For Saint Ignatius, collecting around the Bishop was like mirroring the unity of an invisible Church in Heaven,
making the presence of Our Lord Jesus Christ

clearly seen in the local community of Christians.

This is what I read about him & Saint Ignatius was a good human being,
who stood up for the Christian faith even giving up his life for it.
From what was given, it seemed as if Saint Ignatius simply asked the Christians to look upon the Bishop

 as a representative for Christ to protect the Christians from getting divided, maintaining the unity of the Church,
& to stand against heresies, during those difficult times when  Christianity & Christians were being persecuted.

Christ was, is & will always remain the Head of every Church & every denomination,
Amen.
May the Holy Spirit bear witness to this story about a good man as Saint Ignatius of Antioch,
Amen.

I believe you are confusing Ignatius of Antioch, with Ignatius Loyola, founder of the Roman Catholic and infamous Jesuit institution. Which became so diabolical at times throughout history, that more than just a few Catholic kings and countries banned them, and even a Pope at one time at least. He was a devout soldier of Mary.

Believe as you wish of course. Nevertheless, as a bishop, Ignatius repeatedly called upon the Church to view bishops and other clergy as though they were God Himself and or Jesus Christ. How could one better serve the purposes of the man of sin, who would set himself up in the temple of God, as though he were God. These things which the apostle Paul predicted for the New Covenant church.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

I'm sorry, but what more could a professed Christian do to help effect the above prophecy, but to declare that they themselves and others in their position should be looked upon as though they were God? Or our Lord Jesus Christ? What higher claim could ones seeking followers after themselves as Paul prophesied as well, make? None. For there is no other claim of any higher authority upon earth, than to be viewed as God the Father or Son.

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

I am not judging the motives or eternal destination of Ignatius himself, God will take care of that concerning us all. I am judging his written testimonies in relation to the teachings of the Holy Scriptures. Addressing that which I believe most obviously begins to deviate from them. As though they teach anywhere at any time, that sinners such as we all are, should be looked upon and or obeyed as though they were God. There is only one time when sinners should be looked upon as the messengers of God, as when they are sharing the biblical truths of God, but never should they be looked upon as God Himself. Believe as you wish. I will not go there.

: pppp  Sat Aug 15, 2026 - 13:41:47And there is a huge difference between Saint Ignatius of Antioch & the Anti-christ.
Because Saint Ignatius gave up his life readily refusing to deny the Christian faith.
Whereas the antichrist will take people away from Christ.
And Christ will overthrow all three ...Satan, the false teacher, & the antichrist into the abyss, as divine judgement.

To Christ be the Glory forever,
Amen.

2 Thessalonians 2:8
New International Version
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

Revelation 19:19-20
New International Version
19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false teacher who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Any person who places themsleves in the place of God before others, is antichrist. No one will ever be converted and changed into the image of God, which is our salvation, by subjecting themselves to any other sinful human being declaring themselves to be in the place of God. By directing attention away from God and to themselves, they cut humanity off from God and our Lord Jesus Christ, who alone can transform and or save anyone. Destroying the liberty of all in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This is in fact the exact history of apostate "Christianity", in the persecution of all who would not bow before the dictates of certain Christian professing individuals organizations and or denominations. To the tune of countless millions be persecuted and murdered throughout history in the name of God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ. Because professed Christians placed themsleves in the position of God, therefore also then bringing upon others what they considered to be the proper judgements of God in doing so. Once again, an exact fulfillment of Paul's afore mentioned prophecy and more than just a few others of Holy Scripture.

Jhn 16:1 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended. 2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. 3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

History is filled with professed Christians fulfilling the above prophecy. Christians who thought they stood in the place of God, and carried out judgement upon others who would not bow to their teachings or dogmas, in many various ways up to and including torturous death. These are the very real dangers of deviating even slightly it seems, from the teachings of God's word. Which I am convinced Ignatius did, concerning this issue, which had terrible and very long lasting effects. Nevertheless, and as always, believe as you wish. Enjoy your own liberty in Christ Jesus, which I would not dare to take away from you. Only, let us not use our liberty as an excuse for establishing the desires of the flesh.

Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.


Gal 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: 5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

The gospel of Jesus Christ has nothing at all to do with the exaltation of sinners over and above other sinners. Rather the exaltation of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ over all, unto our transformation back into the image of God with which we were created, not ever the place, authority, or privileges of God. Such are the desires of the evil one, who sought and seeks to be God, without being like God. The true spirit of antichrist as well. Which all professed "Christians" who have and will persecute others in the name of Christ, manifest. 

: pppp  Sat Aug 15, 2026 - 13:43:44Revelation 13
King James Version
13 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Yes, forced worship is not of God but rather the evil one. And what has apostate "Christianity" done all throughout its history? But force its vision of the same upon all, with many penalties including death. And why did so many professed Christians support and or allow for such? Was it not because they thought those who commanded such, were to be looked upon as God? Apparently so.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Mat 20:25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. 26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; 27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: 28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Yes, Saint Ignatius of Antioch was different from Saint Ignatius of Loyola.
I'm sorry for the confusion,
Actually, the article on the internet confused both of them.
I'll just point the diffrences between them.

Saint Ignatius of Antioch (died 108 AD), served as the third Bishop of Antioch.
And was martyred for refusing to deny the Christian faith.

Saint Ignatius of Loyola (1491–1556) , was a soldier & a nobleman & later became a priest.

When we talk of Saints,
we generally know about their integrity towards Christ,
their martyrdom,
standing up for the faith & the people,
& the miraculous events that have taken place, as well,
which cannot be imitated by any Satanic force in the world.

And the devotion of Saints, to Christ was unparalleled,
& that is why they brought people towards Christ,
& gave up their lives instead of saving it.
And by no means were they even a lesser form of the antichrist.
Because the main purpose of the antichrist's was to move people away from Christ & make them worship the devil.

And in many era's, there were people under the influence of the satanic forces,
whose main purpose was simply to take Christians away from the Christian faith.

Like it was given in the story of Saint Ignatius of Antioch, when others were trying to divide the Christians.
 Saint Ignatius,  told people that the Bishop represented Christ,
 & he was actually trying to save the faith from declining & trying to keep the people united.
That was maybe the demand of that era.

God knows everything about His chosen Prophets & Saints,
Amen.

When we look upon the Prophets & Saints,
just look at them as workers of Christ,
look at the fruit they spread,
fruit of martyrdom, integrity, they were faithful to Christ,
keeper of the faith & standing up for the persecuted Christians.

You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.
John 15:16

This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
John 15:8

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Galatians 5:22-23

I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.
John 15:1-2

So is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
Isaiah 55:11


 ::amen!::  ::amen!::  ::amen!::

Amo, thank you for your replies.
I've read what you've written & understood what's your point of view.
And its a nice thing to discuss any issues so that they can be cleared,
& in fact what the aim should be is to unite our Christian people in the world,
with Christ as the Head of the Church & be Head & leader in the Christian journey.
I've understood what you have tried to explain,
& I'll try my best to give an answer that is going to explain what's really happening in these times & even in earlier era's.
Thank you for reading.


 And this does not include any Saints or any denomination or particular organizations.
I'm just going to write about Satan & his evil beings who are trying hard to spread darkness.

There were & may be, & are still many, dark beings of Satan,
who are actively trying to create a division between Christians & Christ.
And the worst part is that they are using the Holy Scripture to instigate Christians against Christ,
& trying very hard to distort Scripture altogether, with logic that's actually baseless,
& simply, the goal is to make people  worship the antichrist.
On one hand the satanic forces are using fictitious characters to create divisions amongst Christians,

on the other hand they are using other logical theories to create divisions, & these theories are completely baseless.
but sadly gullible Christians cannot see their manipulative games.
But all those who are tightly bound to Christ & His Word, can see what these satanic forces are doing.
And even when in the past era's, when Saintly people who were genuinely righteous, started something to unite Christians,
Satan's dark forces tried their best to ruin a good thing.

From what is coming out from various articles, etc.,  on the internet,
it is becoming clear that on purpose a split is being caused
& Satan is trying his best to create a rift between various denominations, amongst Christians themselves & also between Christians & Jews.
But truly, God can see through their manipulative, evil, tricky & shady games,
& He is far ahead of Satan's dark schemes,
& its His power & The Word that will stand in the end,
Amen.

And God Himself must be wishing that His believers see to what Satan is busy doing
& God will help the remaining faithful to lead the way with light.
And His light shall prevail, Amen.
What we all need to do, is to remain faithful to Our Blessed Saviour Christ & The Word of God,
& this unity will help,
Let us all bow down before our Maker, God,
To Christ be the Glory forever & ever,
Amen.



Because of the Lord's great love we are not consumed,
for his compassions never fail.
They are new every morning;
great is your faithfulness.
Lamentations 3:22-23   

But the Lord is faithful, and he will strengthen you and protect you from the evil one.
2 Thessalonians 3:3

He will cover you with his feathers,
and under his wings you will find refuge;
his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart.
Psalm 91:4

For he guards the course of the just
and protects the way of his faithful ones.
Proverbs 2:8

Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.
Hebrews 10:23

Not to us, Lord, not to us
but to your name be the glory,
because of your love and faithfulness.
Psalm 115:1
 ::amen!::  ::amen!::  ::amen!::

: pppp  Sun Aug 16, 2026 - 14:44:54Amo, thank you for your replies.
I've read what you've written & understood what's your point of view.
And its a nice thing to discuss any issues so that they can be cleared,
& in fact what the aim should be is to unite our Christian people in the world,
with Christ as the Head of the Church & be Head & leader in the Christian journey.
I've understood what you have tried to explain,
& I'll try my best to give an answer that is going to explain what's really happening in these times & even in earlier era's.
Thank you for reading.


 And this does not include any Saints or any denomination or particular organizations.
I'm just going to write about Satan & his evil beings who are trying hard to spread darkness.

There were & may be, & are still many, dark beings of Satan,
who are actively trying to create a division between Christians & Christ.
And the worst part is that they are using the Holy Scripture to instigate Christians against Christ,
& trying very hard to distort Scripture altogether, with logic that's actually baseless,
& simply, the goal is to make people  worship the antichrist.
On one hand the satanic forces are using fictitious characters to create divisions amongst Christians,

on the other hand they are using other logical theories to create divisions, & these theories are completely baseless.
but sadly gullible Christians cannot see their manipulative games.
But all those who are tightly bound to Christ & His Word, can see what these satanic forces are doing.
And even when in the past era's, when Saintly people who were genuinely righteous, started something to unite Christians,
Satan's dark forces tried their best to ruin a good thing.

From what is coming out from various articles, etc.,  on the internet,
it is becoming clear that on purpose a split is being caused
& Satan is trying his best to create a rift between various denominations, amongst Christians themselves & also between Christians & Jews.
But truly, God can see through their manipulative, evil, tricky & shady games,
& He is far ahead of Satan's dark schemes,
& its His power & The Word that will stand in the end,
Amen.

And God Himself must be wishing that His believers see to what Satan is busy doing
& God will help the remaining faithful to lead the way with light.
And His light shall prevail, Amen.
What we all need to do, is to remain faithful to Our Blessed Saviour Christ & The Word of God,
& this unity will help,
Let us all bow down before our Maker, God,
To Christ be the Glory forever & ever,
Amen.



Because of the Lord's great love we are not consumed,
for his compassions never fail.
They are new every morning;
great is your faithfulness.
Lamentations 3:22-23   

But the Lord is faithful, and he will strengthen you and protect you from the evil one.
2 Thessalonians 3:3

He will cover you with his feathers,
and under his wings you will find refuge;
his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart.
Psalm 91:4

For he guards the course of the just
and protects the way of his faithful ones.
Proverbs 2:8

Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.
Hebrews 10:23

Not to us, Lord, not to us
but to your name be the glory,
because of your love and faithfulness.
Psalm 115:1
 ::amen!::  ::amen!::  ::amen!::

Amen.

The key is born again FAITH, and the work of faith Christ's labor of love is two-fold from the beginning:

1. "LET THERE BE" — God speaks.
2. "AND IT WAS SO... GOOD" — God alone performs what He has spoken.

That is the law of faith. God supplies both the living Word to be heard and the power by which His promised good result is accomplished.

Man does not create faith by his own wisdom, ceremonies, signs, or works.

That helps us understand:

"I will hide my face from them... for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is NO FAITH." — Deuteronomy 32:20

Notice the relationship between HID and NO FAITH.

Now come forward to Christ teaching His apostles in Luke 9:

"Let these sayings sink down into your ears." — Luke 9:44

Yet immediately Scripture tells us:

"But they understood not this saying, and it was HID from them, that they perceived it not." — Luke 9:45

They possessed the spoken words but did not yet understand what was hidden in them.

Mark gives the same testimony:

"But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him." — Mark 9:32

Their lack of understanding then showed itself in their actions.

They disputed over who should be greatest.

John wanted to forbid another because "he followeth not with us."

James and John wanted to call fire down from heaven upon the Samaritans.

Finally Christ rebuked them:

"Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of." — Luke 9:55

They were hearing Christ's words, but they were still learning how the temporal things spoken in parables revealed the unseen spiritual things of the Gospel.

That is why Christ said concerning the parables:

"Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables." — Mark 4:11

And again:

"Without a parable spake he not unto them." — Mark 4:34

The spiritual understanding must therefore come from God. Scripture gives us the method:

"Comparing spiritual things with spiritual." — 1 Corinthians 2:13

And Hebrews tells us what must accompany the hearing:

"The word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with FAITH in them that heard it." — Hebrews 4:2

There again is the two-fold work:

God speaks — "LET THERE BE."
Faith receives what God has spoken.
God performs the work — "AND IT WAS SO... GOOD."

That is REST.

We cease trying to manufacture spiritual understanding through the wisdom and works of dying mankind and rest in God's finished work:

"For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his." — Hebrews 4:10

Then Christ's question becomes very serious:

"Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find FAITH on the earth?" — Luke 18:8

Will He find the faith that hears the living Word and rests in God's work, or mankind looking only at the outward temporal shadow while missing the invisible Gospel reality?

That is why rightly dividing the parables matters.

"LET THERE BE" — the living Word comes from God.
"IT WAS SO... GOOD" — the power and accomplishment belong to God.

The parable is the temporal shadow.
Faith sees the unseen Gospel reality.
And the born-again believer rests in the finished work of God.

That is all fine and well. Nevertheless, "to forsake the truth, for the sake of unity, can only lead to apostasy".

No one will be lost for not agreeing with this or that denomination, doctrine, or dogma. All will be lost by forsaking the truth. Therefore does the evil one seek to inspire professed Christians to forsake, ignore, or reject biblical truth. A form of unity built upon ignoring biblical truths which might cause some division among professed followers, is just the kind of false unity the evil one desires. Leaving many professed Christinas ignoring, if not rejecting bible truth. Which is most dangerous to the soul.

Jhn 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Jhn 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Jhn 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Jhn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Jhn 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

Jhn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Jhn 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The most dangerous deceptions of the evil one, have and will continue to come from within professed Christianity. The devil is not concerned with deceiving non believers, they are already deceived by rejecting the truth. His problem, his main work, is to deceive God's professed followers into serving him by rejecting the truths of God's word, while thinking they are saved and actually serving God. To the point as our own Lord taught concerning the future, that those who will persecute and kill Christ's very own, will believe they are actually serving God. Which has already happened many times in the past. As chronicled in the Old Testament concerning the continuous apostasies of the Jews, predicted concerning Christianity by Christ Jesus and His apostles, and born out throughout New Covenant history. The anitchrist pretends to stand in the place of Jesus Christ, not the devil or some pagan God. It will be apostate Christianity that enforces the final mark of the final beast of biblical prophecy, not some pagan professing religion. Or else the evil could not deceive professed Christians, which is his main goal, as all others are already deceived. The present movements toward the unity of all professed Christians, also involves the unity of all the world, which authentic Christianity cannot embrace without embracing apostasy.

Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. 37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

The enforced worship of the beast of the end days, will simply be a command to disobey authentic worship of God according the truths of His word. To replace a commandment of God the Father and Son, with a commandment of its own. One that many professed Christians would likely have no problem keeping, while ignoring the truth of God's word concerning an authentic commandment of God.

Easy peasy. Choose either the command of God, or the command of the beast. The Lord will make this issue as simple as possible before He returns, that all the world may be decided in one generation, and then the end shall come. By such, the unification of the world, and the unification of authentic Christianity may be completed. The harvests of the world having come to complete fruition, may be reaped. Come Lord Jesus.

Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. 8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. 9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. 14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs. 

Ok, Amo, thanks for reading & your reply.
I've read what you've written & understood your point of view & exactly what you mean.
I'll break my reply into a few parts.
I've understood what you've written about the anti -christ & how he divides & will divide the Christians & take them away from the Christian faith.
I think this a good discussion because ultimately I think it can clear many issues & in fact can bring Christians closer to the Christian faith,
removing any doubts or unresolved issues.

The first part of my reply is about Satan trying his level best to spread darkness among the Christian community in the world.
 And this does not include any Saints or any denomination or particular organizations.

I have been reading about how Christians are already being divided & taken away from the faith,
by Satan in a number of ways.
And Satan uses not only persecution but also logic which is actually baseless to take people away from the faith
& this is becoming a serious issue.
 
Let's start with what is seen & what is not,
then comes free thinking, logic & science.
See, these things are okay in themselves but when used & misinterpreted,
they lead even an honest believer away from God.
Even extreme viewpoints is taking away belivers from Christ.
 
The problem is that the mortal conscious mind is full of fear, fickle, untrustworthy
& is limited.
Even the most intelligent people's knowledge cannot be compared to the vast wisdom of God.
And though God has given wisdom, knowledge & good sense to His believers,
yet they fail to see through the evil games of Satan.

And they look at the Christian faith through the glasses of Satan who is blinding them with logic, free thinking, & what is seen.
But sadly what they are not realizing is that logic & free thinking is okay in itself but should not be allowed to create a wedge betwwen themselves & God.

The first thing is on what is seen & what is unseen.
Sadly people believe in things which are seen & this includes baseless logical theories,
but they get so impressed by this rubbish,
that they begin to move away from the Christian faith.
Now, on what is seen has no base. Why? Because can these baseless theories give life after death like Christ can? NO, these baseless theories can't.
Can miracles take place with the help of these baseless theories ?NO.
Can supernatural wonders take place with the help of these baseless theories ?NO.

I've been reading on how gullible Christians who may not even leave the faith get impressed with such absolute rubbish.
And they further try to impress others, who themselves don't know the truth.
God had said that the truth shall set belivers free.
And the truth is that Christ is the Son of the Living God.
And for us believers, Christ is the only God & Son of God.
And that will hold. Amen.

Then people are not realizing that what is seen can also come from Satan
& also from God.
Just like Elijah prayed & called down fire from Heaven.
1 Kings 18:38-39 (NIV):"Then the fire of the LORD fell and burned up the sacrifice, the wood, the stones and the soil, and also licked up the water in the trench. When all the people saw this, they fell prostrate and cried, 'The LORD—he is God! The LORD—he is God!'"

The source was God Himself & so what was seen was reliable & trustworthy.

Even the antichrist will get fire from the skies, but that will be just a trick to deceive people & many will be deceived.

 — Revelation 13:13 (NKJV)

So, the source of what is seen should be clearly understood.


Next is, on what is unseen.
Can kindness be seen?
Can compassion be seen?
Can sacred love be seen?
NO.
These things cannot be seen, yet they exist.
Kind, compassion & the sacred love of God can be felt by good deeds.
Similarly God cannot be seen by many, but that does not mean that He does not exist.
There have been numerous happenings which have taken place, like miraculous healings, supernatural wonders, good winning over evil, the coming back of people from the dead & fate itself being changed by God. These clearly show that there is higher force which controls all things & this is the force of Our God Almighty.

2 Kings 20
New King James Version
Hezekiah's Life Extended
20 In those days Hezekiah was sick and near death. And Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz, went to him and said to him, "Thus says the Lord: 'Set your house in order, for you shall die, and not live.'
2 Then he turned his face toward the wall, and prayed to the Lord, saying, 3 "Remember now, O Lord, I pray, how I have walked before You in truth and with a loyal heart, and have done what was good in Your sight." And Hezekiah wept bitterly.

4 And it happened, before Isaiah had gone out into the middle court, that the word of the Lord came to him, saying, 5 "Return and tell Hezekiah the leader of My people, 'Thus says the Lord, the God of David your father: "I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; surely I will heal you. On the third day you shall go up to the house of the Lord. 6 And I will add to your days fifteen years. I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for My own sake, and for the sake of My servant David." ' "

John 11:43–44
"When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, 'Lazarus, come out!' The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face. Jesus said to them, 'Take off the grave clothes and let him go.'"

 Jesus told him, "Stand up, pick up your mat, and walk!" Instantly the man was healed. He rolled up his mat and began walking.

1 John 5:4: "For everyone has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith."
2 Kings 6:8-22
16 So he answered, "Do not fear, for those who are with us are more than those who are with them." 17 And Elisha prayed, and said, "Lord, I pray, open his eyes that he may see." Then the Lord opened the eyes of the young man, and he saw. And behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha. 18 So when the Syrians came down to him, Elisha prayed to the Lord, and said, "Strike this people, I pray, with judgement." And He struck them with judgement according to the word of Elisha.

From these Biblical passages, it is clearly seen how
even what is unseen exists & so God exists,
even if many can't see Him.
Yet, though many may not have seen Him,
yet God sent His one & only Chosen Son Christ,
through which we can see God Almighty.



John 14:9
Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you all this time and you do not know Me yet? Whoever has seen Me, has seen the Father.

So actually what was unseen has been seen through the Son of God.
So actually God exists has been seen through Blessed Christ.

Then comes Science.
Science is a good subject,
but do people ever realize a simple fact ...that God created knowledge & wisdom & it was not the other way round.
There was a time when scientists were trying to find the missing link between man & monkey?
And later this theory was totally discarded.
Agan, dinos were extinct about 66 million years ago,
yet just about 200 years ago, many ancient lake & sea reptiles have been seen.
This clearly shows again that God is far greater than any law or theory made by humans.
But sadly again,
many believe more in Science than in the faith!!!


Then extreme viewpoints to fit Satan's agenda also take away believers from the Christian faith.
2 Timothy 4:3-4
"For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."

Matthew 7:15"Beware of false teachers, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves."

2 Corinthians 11:13-15
"For such men are false teachers, deceitful workers, masquerading as teachers of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness."


And  what is required is to use good sense & know that Our God who is the Living God,
is a God of justice, goodness, mercy & light.
And binding ourselves with Christ is the way to light & eternal life.
Amen.
Romans 16:17-18
"I urge you, believers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them."



And yes, its true that Satan uses Scriture itself to deceive believers but then,
he can't go far with his evil shady tricks because sooner or later,
God's faithful will realize & may have realized Satan's deception.
& no matter how hard Satan tries to mislead God's people,
he will never win against God,
Amen.
The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
John 1:5
For the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth.
Ephesians 5:9
When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
John 8:12
The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
John 1:5
The Lord bless you and keep you;
the Lord make his face shine on you
and be gracious to you;
the Lord turn his face toward you
and give you peace.
Numbers 6:24-26
Amen.

In this next part,
from whatever I've read,
I'll try my best to explain why Saints spread good fruit.
And why Satan spread darkness.
See, if people read Revelation, it is clear that he wants the world to worship him

& when he was in Heaven & even after being thrown out from there,
his motive still remains the same.
And though he uses both persecution & logic which may include even using Scripture to make people worship him,
yet his deeds are clearly seen.

Just compare the fruit spread by the Saints & the mischief Satan creates.
On one hand, the Saints took believers closer to God,
spread compassion & kindness,
were even martyred,
spoke up for the persecuted,

performed miracles & supernatural happenings took place because of them,
on the other hand Satan uses Scripture itself, baseless logic & tricks to make people believe in him.
And this is a huge difference.

If you read about the miracles performed by the Saints,
you'll see & people will realize that their work brought people closer to God & even unbelievers turned towards God & became a part of the Christian faith.
That is why Christ Himself allows these miracles to take place.
God Himself lets Saints perform physical healings & miracles because this leads people closer to God.

John 14:12
Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

Whereas whatever fake tricks Satan will perform or whatever false teachings he spreads,
even though he may imitate righteousness,
has always lead & will lead people away from Christ.

That's the huge difference between Saints & Satan.
Judge them by their work.
Look at the miracle regarding Apostle Saint John.
During the reign of an emperor, authorities arrested Saint John for preaching about the Christian faith.
They placed him in a basin of boiling oil,
but he was unharmed & even felt refreshed.
When people saw this miraculous event, they began to follow God & became Christians.
Upon seeing this miraculous event,
the Emperor banished him to an island where he experienced sacred visions & wrote the Revelation in the Bible.

And there have been many such miraculous events leading people towards the faith & making the faith stronger of the already existing believers.

For everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.
1 John 5:4

For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."
Romans 1:17

garee, hi, thank you for your reply,
I think you are right,
faith is important for a believer of Christianity,
firstly faith is believing in the unseen,
that is God.

God, though unseen exists,
& Christ being sent by Father God,
is proof in itself that God exists
& that all the believers should continue to trust God & in His Word.
But definitely through miracles & supernatural events,
faith not only increases but adds more believers to our faith.

What is essential for all the believers is that despite the distractions created by Satan,
the believers should steadfastly hold on to the Christian faith,
because this faith in the Word of God is essential,
& The Word of God in the Holy Bible, is no ordinary work,
instead it is the true light of God leading to eternal life,
it is the work of the Living God,

& history has shown time & again that whoever believes in the Christian faith is a winner,
that is the promise of our Holy Father to His people,
Amen.

Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
1 Peter 1:8-9

For we live by faith, not by sight.
2 Corinthians 5:7

And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
Hebrews 11:6
Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty."
John 6:35
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
John 11:25-26

Then Jesus said, "Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?"
John 11:40
I have chosen the way of faithfulness;
I have set my heart on your laws.
Psalm 119:30

I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love.
Ephesians 3:16-17

Amo, continuing my post,
the next part of how Satan spreads darkness
& divides God's people.
Another way is to create a rift between the Jews & the Christians.
And the reason is because he does not want the Christians to help the Jews.
And the reason for that is that if no one will help them,
then they will lose.

And that is exactly the game of Satan,
because the Jews were chosen by God for a divine purpose.
Because Christ first came into the world through the Jews & the second time too Christ will come through the Jews & then they will accept Christ as the Messiah.

And the return of Christ means the end of Satan's reign of persecution, tears, pain & suffering.
So he purposely tries to create a rift between the Jews & Christians.
Another reason is that through the Jews God sends blessings & so Satan wants to stop this.
And Satan's mischief doesn't end here,

he even tries to create distractions & division between Christians themselves, in order to weaken Christianity.
But Satan in his arrogance, conceit & ignorance cannot envisage,
that his plans are a complete failure & that he can't & will never succeed in winning against the supreme hand of God,
Amen.
I am the Lord, the God of all mankind. Is anything too hard for me?
Jeremiah 32:27

That is why the Christians in the world, should hold fast to the Word of God as this will ultimately bring light & send the darkness of Satan & Satan himself to the abyss.


He who forms the mountains,
who creates the wind,
and who reveals his thoughts to mankind,
who turns dawn to darkness,
and treads on the heights of the earth—
the Lord God Almighty is his name.
Amos 4:13

The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it,
the world, and all who live in it.
Psalm 24:1

"Though the mountains be shaken
and the hills be removed,
yet my unfailing love for you will not be shaken
nor my covenant of peace be removed,"
says the Lord, who has compassion on you.
Isaiah 54:10

For no word from God will ever fail.
Luke 1:37

Yours, Lord, is the greatness and the power
and the glory and the majesty and the splendor,
for everything in heaven and earth is yours.
Yours, Lord, is the kingdom;
you are exalted as head over all.
1 Chronicles 29:11

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."
Revelation 1:8

Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
1 Timothy 1:17

: pppp  Mon Aug 17, 2026 - 23:50:08Amo, continuing my post,
the next part of how Satan spreads darkness
& divides God's people.
Another way is to create a rift between the Jews & the Christians.
And the reason is because he does not want the Christians to help the Jews.
And the reason for that is that if no one will help them,
then they will lose.

And that is exactly the game of Satan,
because the Jews were chosen by God for a divine purpose.
Because Christ first came into the world through the Jews & the second time too Christ will come through the Jews & then they will accept Christ as the Messiah.

And the return of Christ means the end of Satan's reign of persecution, tears, pain & suffering.
So he purposely tries to create a rift between the Jews & Christians.
Another reason is that through the Jews God sends blessings & so Satan wants to stop this.
And Satan's mischief doesn't end here,

he even tries to create distractions & division between Christians themselves, in order to weaken Christianity.
But Satan in his arrogance, conceit & ignorance cannot envisage,
that his plans are a complete failure & that he can't & will never succeed in winning against the supreme hand of God,
Amen.
I am the Lord, the God of all mankind. Is anything too hard for me?
Jeremiah 32:27

That is why the Christians in the world, should hold fast to the Word of God as this will ultimately bring light & send the darkness of Satan & Satan himself to the abyss.


He who forms the mountains,
who creates the wind,
and who reveals his thoughts to mankind,
who turns dawn to darkness,
and treads on the heights of the earth—
the Lord God Almighty is his name.
Amos 4:13

The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it,
the world, and all who live in it.
Psalm 24:1

"Though the mountains be shaken
and the hills be removed,
yet my unfailing love for you will not be shaken
nor my covenant of peace be removed,"
says the Lord, who has compassion on you.
Isaiah 54:10

For no word from God will ever fail.
Luke 1:37

Yours, Lord, is the greatness and the power
and the glory and the majesty and the splendor,
for everything in heaven and earth is yours.
Yours, Lord, is the kingdom;
you are exalted as head over all.
1 Chronicles 29:11

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."
Revelation 1:8

Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
1 Timothy 1:17

GOD IS NOT A DYING JEWISH MAN

pppp, I would put the whole thought together this way:

Satan's deception is to turn mankind's eyes toward the temporal dying things that are seen rather than the eternal things of the invisible God.

Scripture describes God as:

"The King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God." — 1 Timothy 1:17

ETERNAL — not dying.
IMMORTAL — not mortal.
INVISIBLE — not visible flesh.

That is why Scripture tells us:

"For we walk by faith, not by sight." — 2 Corinthians 5:7

THE FATHER GAVE THE WORDS

Jesus continually directed attention beyond his visible flesh to the unseen Father:

"The word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me." — John 14:24

And:

"The Father that dwelleth in me, HE DOETH THE WORKS." — John 14:10

There is the two-fold work of faith that begins with creation:

1. "LET THERE BE" — God speaks.
2. "IT WAS SO... GOOD" — God alone performs the work.

The unseen Father supplied the words; the Son of man Jesus visibly carried out the promised demonstration.

PETER LOOKED AT THE THINGS OF MEN

When Jesus revealed the coming suffering, Peter resisted:

"Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee." — Matthew 16:22

Christ answered:

"Get thee behind me, Satan... for thou savourest not the THINGS THAT BE OF GOD, but those that be OF MEN." — Matthew 16:23

Peter was looking at what his natural eyes could see—the things of men.

Faith must look beyond the temporal flesh to the invisible things of God.

THE BLOODY HUSBAND — TWO WITNESSES

Now consider the strange but powerful language of Exodus:

"Surely a BLOODY HUSBAND art thou to me." — Exodus 4:25

And again:

"A BLOODY HUSBAND thou art, because of the circumcision." — Exodus 4:26

Twice:

BLOODY HUSBAND.
BLOODY HUSBAND.

Two witnesses.

And Scripture itself connects the Bloody Husband with circumcision.

I see this ceremonial shadow pointing forward to the Gospel demonstration of Christ our Husband.

THE VEIL OF FLESH WAS RENT

At Calvary:

"The veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom." — Matthew 27:51

Hebrews tells us what the veil represents:

"Through the veil, that is to say, HIS FLESH." — Hebrews 10:20

There is the spiritual picture I see when comparing spiritual things with spiritual:

BLOODY HUSBAND — twice witnessed.
CIRCUMCISION — the ceremonial shadow.
RENT VEIL — His flesh.
CIRCUMCISION WITHOUT HANDS — the spiritual reality.

For Paul says:

"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision MADE WITHOUT HANDS." — Colossians 2:11

The Gospel reality is not confidence in dying flesh. It is the unseen work of Christ in the born-again believer.

SATAN COULD DECEIVE THE NATIONS NO MORE

Now carry that principle into Revelation 20:

"And cast him into the bottomless pit... that he should DECEIVE THE NATIONS NO MORE, till the thousand years should be fulfilled." — Revelation 20:3

Revelation says Satan's restraint prevents him from deceiving the nations.

The particular deception I see exposed by the Gospel is mankind's tendency to make the eternal invisible God into the image of mortal, dying flesh—to make God a dying Jewish man.

But Scripture says God is:

ETERNAL.
IMMORTAL.
INVISIBLE.

When Satan is released, what does he immediately do?

"And shall go out to DECEIVE THE NATIONS." — Revelation 20:8

The deception begins again.

LOOK BEYOND THE FLESH

This helps me understand Paul's remarkable statement:

"Though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more." — 2 Corinthians 5:16

The temporal flesh performed its appointed part in the demonstration. Faith looks through the veil to the eternal reality.

"For the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal." — 2 Corinthians 4:18

So put the whole picture together:

The Father gave the words.

The Son of man Jesus performed the demonstration.

The Bloody Husband was witnessed twice.

The circumcision pointed beyond flesh.

The veil of flesh was rent.

The true circumcision is without hands.

Satan was restrained from deceiving the nations.

Let there be Faith looks beyond temporal flesh to the invisible God.

Therefore my conclusion is:

GOD IS NOT A DYING JEWISH MAN.

"God is a Spirit." — John 4:24

"The King eternal, immortal, invisible." — 1 Timothy 1:17

Walk by faith, not by sight.

 garee, thank you for reading & your reply,
ok, I have understood what you have written.
John 4:24: "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."
John 1:1: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was the God.
"John 1:14: "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."

God is a Spirit but He sent His one & only Chosen Son, in human form, as a Jew.
The Holy Bible is the guiding path for all the believers.
And the Holy Bible purely teaches us that He considers the Jewish people as His chosen & the apple of His eyes.

Deuteronomy 7:7-8
"The Lord did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but because the Lord loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers..."
Jeremiah 31:3
"The Lord appeared to us in the past, saying, 'I have loved you with an everlasting love; I have drawn you with unfailing kindness.'"
1 Chronicles 16:15-16:
 "He remembers his covenant forever, the promise he made, for a thousand generations, the covenant he made with Abraham, the oath he swore to Isaac."

Deuteronomy 10:15
"Yet the Lord set His affection on your ancestors and loved them, and He chose you, their descendants, above all the nations—as it is today."
And God chose the Jews for a divine purpose ...because Christ, the Saviour of humanity would come through them the first time & the second.
Acts 3:13:
 "The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus..."


Revelation 21:12-13: "It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south, and three on the west."

God does not do anything in error because He is perfect & there is no error in Him.
God is light, He is the truth, He is blameless, He is eternal.
And He knows everything in advance.
Before He made the earth & its inhabitants, He knew the end,
& before the end came, He knew the beginning & made it.
And God knew in advance that He would make mankind & Satan would not only rebel against Him but deceive mankind as well.
That is why, Christ who was always present even before humanity was made,
was sent in human form as a Jew.
So Christ, came first as a Jew.
And He will come again the second time through the Jews.
Amen.
God knows what He is doing & what He has already written will happen,
Amen.

Revelation 12
...7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
... 17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God's commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

Revelation clearly states that Satan was hurled to the earth,
and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring.
But due to the restraining power of The Holy Spirit,
Satan though tries his mischief but is incapable of fully destroying either the Jews or the Christians.
But when the restraining power of the Holy Spirit will be removed,
(though the Holy Spirit will remain on the earth among the people),
then Satan along with his unholy duo of the antichrist & the false teacher will come to deceive mankind & persecute the faithful.
And according to the redemtive plan of God,
Christ will come again through the Jews & they will accept Him as the Messiah,
Amen.
What has been ordained by God, shall not be undone by mankind.

The Holy Bible is the Word of God & what has been written in it is God's permanent verdict. And it cannot be changed, reduced, no additions or misinterpretations to it either.

 Deuteronomy 4:2:
"Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the Lord your God that I give you."

Psalm 119:89: "Your word, Lord, is eternal; it stands firm in the heavens."
Isaiah 40:8:
 "The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God endures forever.
"Matthew 5:18: "For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

And God chose to send Christ in human form as a Jew & Christ will always remain a Jew.
Because that is the will of God,
And the Bible clearly teaches us that Christ considered Himself as the Son of God & a Jew.
Amen.
Romans 15:8:
 Paul writes, "For I tell you that Christ became a servant to the circumcised [Jews] to show God's truthfulness, in order to confirm the promises given to the patriarchs."
John 4:22-26 :Jesus replied ...
 "You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews".

23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth."

25 The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us."

26 Then Jesus declared, "I, the one speaking to you—I am he."

And even in Heaven Christ will remain a Jew,
& the Chosen Son of God & God Himself,
And the Bible clearly teaches us that Christ considered Himself as the Son of God & a Jew.
Amen.

Revelation 5:5:
"Then one of the elders said to me, 'Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed.'"

Hebrews 7:14:
"For it is evident that our Lord descended from Judah..."

Hebrews 13:8:
"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever."
The Word of God shall triumph,
Amen.

And Our Beloved Lord Jesus Christ is in Heaven & will come again in human form.
Hebrews 2:17:"For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God..."

Hebrews 7:24:"But because he lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood."
1 Timothy 2:5:"For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus."

Luke 24:39 (Christ after His Resurrection):"Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have."

May the Holy Spirit guide God's people in the truth of The Holy Scripture which is The Word of God which is the Holy Bible.
He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it."
Luke 11:28
 ::amen!::  ::amen!::  ::amen!::

CHAP. IV.—I HAVE NEED OF HUMILITY.

But I measure myself, that I may not perish through boasting: but it is good to glory in the Lord. And even though I were established in things pertaining to God, yet then would it befit me to be the more fearful, and not give heed to those that vainly puff me up. For those that commend me scourge me. , but I know not if I be worthy to do so. For the envy of the wicked one is not visible to many, but it wars against me. I therefore have need of meekness, by which the devil, the prince of this world, is brought to nought.

Ignatius of Antioch, "The Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 67.

As a bishop, Ignatius called upon all the faithful to look upon bishops as though they were God, several times. This of course would mean that they should look upon him as though he were God. So, I would say, his above confession that he is in need of meekness is totally appropriate. I am not sure though, who exactly could vainly puff him up any more than his own request to all, to view him as God Himself. What could they possibly say, to exalt or puff his position up any higher?

CHAP. V.—I WILL NOT TEACH YOU PROFOUND DOCTRINES.

For might not I write to you things more full of mystery? But I fear to do so, lest I should inflict injury on you who are but babes [in Christ]. Pardon me in this respect, lest, as not being able to receive their weighty import, ye should be strangled by them. For even I, though I am bound [for Christ], and am able to understand heavenly things, the angelic orders, and the different sorts of angels and hosts, the distinctions between powers and dominions, and the diversities between thrones and authorities, the mightiness of the Æons, and the pre-eminence of the cherubim and seraphim, the sublimity of the spirit, the kingdom of the Lord, and above all, the incomparable majesty of Almighty God—though I am acquainted with these things, yet am I not therefore by any means perfect; nor am I such a disciple as Paul or Peter. For many things are yet wanting to me, that I may not fall short of God.

Ignatius of Antioch, "The Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 68.

Ah yes, such humility. Good thing he wouldn't share such advanced knowledge of God and spiritual enlightenment with the lesser members of the body Christ, who quite frankly could not handle such knowledge. I'm not sure how his confession that he is not perfect though, will help those beneath him who do not have such very extensive knowledge, to look upon him as though he were God. Is not such a confession that they most certainly should not?

Saint Ignatius of Loyola (1491–1556) , was a soldier & a nobleman & later became a priest.

Some call him a saint, others have a different view of his practices, exercises, teaching, and legacy. Before I find time to read through your above responses and reply, I want to address another issue from your previous response I have not addressed yet. The issue of "Saint" Ignatius Loyola. This post may be followed by numerous other quotes concerning those of this differing opinion as well. Emphasis in the following quotes is mine.

Loyola was born in 1491. He was wounded at the siege of Pampeluna in 1520. After a period of meditation and mortification, he devoted himself, in 1522, to the service of the Church; and in 1540, the Order of the Jesuits was recognized at Rome and established by papal bull. The Society early took root in France, where it was introduced by the Cardinal de Lorraine; and it shortly after acquired almost supreme influence in the State. Under the Jesuits, the Romish Church, reorganised and redisciplined, became one of the most complete of spiritual machines. The Jesuits enjoined implicit submission and obedience. Against liberty they set up authority. To them the Individual was nothing, the Order everything. They were vigilant sentinels, watching night and day over the interests of Rome. One of the first works to which they applied themselves, was the extirpation of the heretics who had strayed from the fold. The principal instrument which they employed with this object, was the Inquisition; and wherever they succeeded in establishing themselves, that institution was set up, or was armed with fresh powers. They tolerated no half-measures. They were unsparing and unpitying; and wherever a heretic was brought before them, and they had the power to deal with him, he must either recant or die. (HUGUENOTS IN ENGLAND AND IRELAND by Samuel Smiles, Chap. 4, pg. 53)


On the following day, the Cardinal de Lorraine, brother of the Duke, was murdered in another part of the castle. Catherine de Medicis had now finished the atrocities of her life. She died twelve days after the murder of Henry of Guise; and eight months later, her son Henry III. was assassinated by Jacques Clement, the Jesuit monk, in the camp before Paris, in August 1589. (Ibid, Chap. 4, pg. 67)

When the French and Spanish monarchs found that Elizabeth continued to give an asylum to their Protestant subjects, they proceeded to compass her death. Assassination was in those days regarded as the readiest method of getting rid of an adversary; and in the case of an excommunicated person, it was regarded almost in the light of a religious duty. When the Regent Murray (of Scotland) was assassinated by Bothwellhaugh, in 1570, Mary Queen of Scotland gave the assassin a pension. Attempts were made about the same time on the life of William of Orange, surnamed "The Silent." One made at Mechlin, in 1572, proved a failure; but William was eventually assassinated at Delft, in 1585, by Balthazar Gerard, an avowed agent of Philip II. and the Jesuits; and Philip afterwards ennobled the family of the assassin. (Ibid, chap. 5, pg. 71)


The massacre of Saint Bartholomew most probably sealed the fate of Mary Stuart. She herself rejoiced in it as a bold stroke for the Faith, and, it might be, as the signal for a like enterprise on her own behalf. Accordingly, she went on plotting as before; and in 1581 she was found engaged in a conspiracy with the Duke of Lennox for the re-establishment of Popery in Scotland, under the auspices of the Jesuits. These intrigues of the Queen of Scots at length became intolerable. Her repeated and urgent solicitations to the King of Spain to invade England with a view to the re-establishment of the old religion — the conspiracies against the life of Elizabeth in which she was from time to time detected7 — excited the vehement indignation of the English nation, and eventually led to her trial and execution; for it was felt that so long as Mary Stuart lived, the life of the English Queen, as well as the liberties of the English people, were in constant jeopardy. (Ibid, chap.5, pg. 75)

But though Henry IV. governed France ably and justly for a period of sixteen years his enemies, the Jesuits, never forgave him, nor did his apostasy avert their vengeance. After repeated attempts made upon his life by their emissaries, he was eventually assassinated by Francis Ravaillac, a lay brother of the monastery of St. Bernard, on the 14th of May 1610. (Ibid, Chap. 8 pg. 108)

The Jesuits now obtained all that they wanted. They made a compact withMadame, by which she was to advise the King to revoke the Edict of Nantes, while they were to consent to her marriage with him. Pere la Chaise, the Royal confessor, advised a private marriage. The ceremony was performed at Versailles by the Archbishop of Paris, in the presence of the confessor and two more witnesses. The precise date of the transaction is not known; but it is surmised that the Edict was revoked one day, and that the marriage took place the next.5The Act of Revocation was published on the 22nd of October, 1685. [b It was the death-knell of the Huguenots. [/b](Ibid, Chap. 9, pg. 126)

It may not be unimportant to remark that William was, like the other princes of his race, an enthusiastic Protestant. The history of his family was identified with the rise and progress of the new views, as well as with the emancipation of the United Provinces from the yoke of Spain and the Inquisition. His great-grandsire had fallen a victim to the dagger of Gerard, the agent of the Jesuits, and expired in the arms of his wife, the daughter of Admiral Coligny. Thus, the best Huguenot blood flowed in the veins of the young Prince of Orange; and his sympathies were wholly on the side of the fugitives who sought the asylum of Holland against the cruelty of their persecutors. (Ibid, Chap. 11, pg. 152)

Protestantism, though proscribed, was not, however, dead; and meetings of the Huguenots continued to be held in "the Desert" — by night, in caves, in the woods, among the hills, by the sea-shore, where a body of faithful pastors ministered to them at the hourly peril of their lives. The "Church in the Desert" was even regularly organized, had its stated elders, deacons, and ministers, and appointed circuit meetings. Very rarely were their secrets betrayed; yet they could not always escape the vigilance of the Jesuits, who continued to track them with the aid of the soldiery and police, and succeeded in sending fresh victims to the galleys so long as they retained power in France. ( Ibid, Chap. 18, pg. 266)

The punishment of the galleys was also drawing to an end. The mutterings of the coming revolution were already beginning to be heard. The long uncontrolled rule of the Jesuits had paved the way for Voltaire and Rousseau, whose influence was about to penetrate French society. In 1764, the Jesuits were suppressed by Parliament, and the persecutions in a great measure ceased. In 1769, Alexander Chambon, of Praules in the Viverais, the last galley-slave for the faith, was discharged from the convict-prison at Toulon, through the intervention of the Prince of Beauvau. Chambon was then eighty years old, and had passed twenty seven years at the galleys, to which he had been condemned for attending a religious meeting. (Ibid, pg. 267)

One thing especially strikes the intelligent reader of French history subsequent to the Act of Revocation — and that is, the almost total disappearance of great Frenchmen. After that date; we become conscious of a dull, dead level of subserviency and conformity to the despotic will of the King. Louis trampled under foot individuality, strength, and genius; there remained only mediocrity, feebleness, and flunkeyism. This feature of the time has been noted by writers so various as De Felice, Merivale, Michelet, and Buckle — the last of whom goes so far as to say that Louis XIV. "survived the entire intellect of the French nation." The Protestant universities of Saumur, Montauban, Nismes, and Sedan were suppressed, and their professors departed into other lands. All Protestant schools were closed, and the whole educational organization of the nation was placed in the hands of the Jesuits. War was declared against Books forbidden by the Church of Rome. Domiciliary visits were paid by the district commanders to every person suspected of possessing them; and all devotional books of sermons and hymns, as well as Bibles and Testaments, that could be found, were ruthlessly burnt. (Ibid, chap. 19, pg. 270)

The policy of Louis XIV. had succeeded, and France was at length "converted"! Protestantism had been crushed, and the Jesuits were triumphant. Their power over the bodies and souls of the people was as absolute as law could make it. The whole education of the country was placed in their hands; and what the character of the next generation was to be, depended in a great measure upon them. Not only the churches and the schools, but even the national prisons, were controlled by them. They were the confessors of the bastiles, of which there were twenty in France, where persons could be incarcerated for life on the authority merely of lettres de cachet, which were given away or sold. Besides the bastiles and the galleys,over which the Jesuits presided, there were also the state prisons, of which Paris alone contained about thirty, besides convents — where persons might be immured without any sentence. "Surely never," says Michelet, "had man's dearest treasure, liberty, been more lavishly squandered." (Ibid, pg. 271)





A Declaration of his Highness, for a collection towards the relief of divers protestant churches driven out of Poland; and of twenty protestant families driven out of the confines of Bohemia.

HIS HIGHNESS, the lord protector, having received a petition from several churches of Christ, professing the reformed religion, lately seated at Lesna, and other places in Poland, representing their sad and deplorable condition, through the persecution and cruelty of their antichristian enemies in those parts, in the time of the war in Poland, by whom they have not only been driven from their habitation and spoiled of their goods, upon the account of religion only, but forced to fly into Silesia, for the preservation of their lives, and for the liberty of their consciences, where a considerable number of them continue in great want and misery — the truth whereof hath been witnessed, as well by deputies sent unto his highness from the said churches, authorized by an instrument under the hands of the pastors of five of those churches, as also by the testimony of several protestant princes, who, out of a deep sense of the calamity of those distressed exiles, have afforded them shelter until it shall please the Lord otherwise to provide for them: And his highness having, in like manner, received a petition from twenty protestant families heretofore seated in the confines of Bohemia, where Misnia belongs unto it, representing their distressed and lamentable condition, through the persecution of the jesuits and inquisitors of the house of Austria, by whom they have been driven out of their habitations, and spoiled of their goods, upon the sole account of their religion; who now, for the safety of their lives, and for the liberties of their consciences, are retired into the marquisate of Culembach, where they find a present shelter in this their very sad and calamitous condition, which hath been witnessed both by their deputies sent unto his highness, authorized by an instrument under the hands of the chief of those families, as also by a public certificate from thence. (THE HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH by William Jones, vol. 2, sect. 7, pg. 305)

These sometime flourishing churches, were, by degrees worn out by the constant underminings and open outrages of the antichristian party, being first driven out of Bohemia into Poland, then after their taking root and spreading in Poland into a numerous company, were forced out of the chief cities there, and now, at last by the jesuited and enraged Polish army, persecuted in their few hiding places, with fire and sword. Their ministers were tortured to death by most exquisite and unheard of barbarism, by cutting out of the tongues of some, pulling out the eyes and cruelly mangling the bodies of others; nor did their rage and brutish cruelty reach only to ministers, but to others, yea even to women and young children, whose heads they cut off, and laid them at their dead mothers' breasts. (Ibid,. Pgs. 308&309)

Hence it came to pass that the kings at their coronations were wont not only to promise, but solemnly to swear protection to such as disagreed from the Roman religion, and, therefore, they proceeded not to open persecutions, save only in those cities where the Jesuits had seated themselves in power, to wit, Cracovia, Posen, Lubin, Vilna, etc. where, by their disciples, and by stirring up the common people to fury, the churches of the reformed professors were a good while ago demolished and divers ministers cruelly massacred.(Ibid., pg. 311)






THE AUTO DE FE

The cruel death by which the Inquisition closed the career of its victims was styled in Spain and Portugal as AUTO DE FE, or "Act of Faith," being regarded as a religious ceremony of peculiar solemnity; and to invest the act with greater sanctity, the cruel deed was always done on the Lord's day. The innocent victims of this papal barbarity were led forth in procession to the place of execution. They were dressed in the most fantastic manner. On the caps and tunics of some were painted the flames of hell, and dragons and demons fanning them to keep them brisk for the heretics; and the Jesuits thundering in their ears that the fires before them were nothing to the fires of hell which they would have to endure for ever. If any brave heart attempted to say a word for the Lord, or in defense of the truth for which he was about to suffer, his mouth was instantly gagged. The condemned were then chained to stakes. Any of the persons confessing that he was a true Catholic and wished to die in the Catholic faith, had the privilege of being strangled before he was burned; but those who refused to claim the privilege, were burnt alive, and reduced to ashes. (MILLER'S CHURCH HISTORY by Andrew Miller, Chap. 26, pgs. 645&6)

THE JESUITS' REAL OBJECT

Thus far we have trodden on ground over which the real character of the Jesuit does not appear — we have only had to do with vows intended to deceive; but were we to pursue their history, we should have to trace in every land the blood-stained footprints of the treacherous and cruel followers of Loyola. Spreading themselves over the world, we find them secretly executing the decrees and private wishes of the Vatican. Their one grand object was to extend the power of the pope, and the one grand fundamental principle of the fraternity was immediate, implicit, unquestioning, unhesitating obedience to him, through their general, who resides in Rome. The organization of their society is by far the most comprehensive of any in existence. "The Jesuit monarchy," it has been said, "covers the globe." In almost every province of the world they have Generals Provincial, who correspond with the General Superior at Rome; so that by means of the confessional, he sees and knows almost everything that is done and said, not only in the Romish church, but in private families, and throughout all parts of the habitable globe. No place is too distant, no difficulties or dangers too great, and no means too nefarious for the Jesuit, if there is the slightest hope of extending the power of the papacy. The Gunpowder Plot, which was planned to destroy at one blow the nobility and gentry of England, is attributed to Jesuitical influence; and so are many other plots which were intended to accomplish the death of Queen Elizabeth. The gigantic wickedness of the Spanish Armada, and the crowning slaughter of the St. Bartholomew massacre, to say nothing of the many seditions, torturings, poisonings, assassinations, and massacres on a smaller scale, must be attributed to the policy, and to the seed sown by the Jesuits. So mighty did their power become, and so ruinous, that it was often found necessary for the government to suppress them. According to modern history, they were expelled from Portugal in 1759; France 1764; Spain and Spanish America, 1767; the two Sicilies, 1768; and in 1773 suppressed by the pope Ganganelli, Clement XIV. But soon after he had signed the order for their banishment, he fell a victim to their vengeance, and died by poison. In 1801 they were restored by Pius VII.; in 1860 they were dismissed from Sicily; but we need scarcely add, that they soon found ways and means to return. The late pope, Pius IX., confirmed the restoration of the order; so that they now occupy a very proud position in Rome. They have the command of most of the collegiate establishments in the city, and in so many other places, that merely to name them would fill a page. (Ibid, Chap. 47, pgs 1093&4)

Philip now eyed the great patriot with the most deadly hatred. He saw in him the animating soul of these struggles for liberty, and hence he sought his life. "Five unsuccessful attempts had been made to assassinate William; but Philip would not give up hope. In 1580 he published a ban of proscription, in which he denounced the prince as guilty of the foulest crimes, and declared that it was permitted to all persons to assail him in his fortunes, person, and life; and promised twenty-five thousand golden crowns, a pardon for all offenses whatsoever, and a patent of nobility, to anyone who should deliver up to him this implacable monarch, William of Nassau, dead or alive." This infamous document soon did its work. On the 10th of July, 1584, a Jesuit, named Gerard, who had passed himself off to the unsuspecting prince as one of the Reformed faith, shot him through the heart, in the hall of his own house, with a pistol which he had bought with money obtained from the prince himself a short time before. "God have mercy on my soul, and on this unfortunate nation," exclaimed the wounded patriot and instantly expired. He had married the widow of Teligny, the daughter of the brave Coligny, who both fell in the St. Bartholomew massacre. Thus had she seen her first and second husband, and her noble father, assassinated by her side. (Ibid, Chap. 48, pg. 1122)

When the "Grand Monarch," Louis XIV. of France, was dying, he asked his confessor, father Le Chaise, "By what good deed as a king, he might atone for his many sins as a man." "Extirpate Protestantism from France," was the Jesuit's ready reply. He speedily complied, and revoked the edict of Nantes, which led to the slaughter and banishment of tens — we may say, of hundreds — of thousands of God's witnesses in France.In this way was the humane duke of Savoy influenced to send an armed force into the valleys, in order to reduce the inhabitants to the Romish obedience, or to exterminate them. But he saw his mistake, and we have no doubt was willing enough to conclude a peace, such as it was. The death of Cromwell, which took place in 1658, deprived the Waldenses of their sincerest friend and most powerful intercessor. He had sanctioned a collection for them, and contributed from his own purse two thousand pounds. The whole amount collected at that time was thirty-eight thousand pounds. (Ibid, Chap. 52, pgs. 1210&11)





This pope seeing the protestant religion gaining ground, and the Roman power declining in most parts of Europe, and particularly, to be in great danger in France, should so warlike a prince as Henry IV., then a protestant, obtain a peaceable enjoyment of that throne, he not only excommunicated that prince, but formed a holy league, as they call it, between the kings and princes of the Roman communion, to extirpate the protestants every where, into which many of them entered. Moreover, it was then agreed at Rome, with the emperor's approbation, that Jesuits should be settled and maintained in all the cities of the empire, by whose contrivances, the way might be prepared for persecution: thus was this satanical project laid by the antichrist of Rome, and to conduct the whole affair, a double senate, council or congregation, was there constituted, of which one is styled the congregation for the propagation of the faith, the other, the congregation of the holy league; the former to pervert, the latter to extirpate heretics. (HISTORY OF THE ANCIENT CHRISTIANS, by Jean Paul Perrin, Chap. 11, pg. 488)

This Jesuit and his associates, did all tha was possible to gain the poor and silly people of the valleys, suggesting to them, that the charitable contributions were so considerable, that if they were distributed according to the intentions of those that had given them, every one at least would have for his share 14 or 1500 livres, and by this seditious discourse they designed to arm them one against the other, and so to destroy them by their own swords. And not content with this, they wrote to foreign countries, France, Switzerland, Ireland, and England, where their charitable collections were gathered, that the chief inhabitants had divided it among themselves, and made merry with it, and let the poor perish with hunger, giving them no part; and by these ties they designed to hinder strangers from being any more touched with the sense of their miseries. (Ibid, Chap.12, section 4, pg. 519)

"Je sais que je suis aime des Vaudois. J'ai fait la guerre dansces vallees. J'ai demeure quelque tems au milieu d'eux avec plaisir. Leur attachement m'etoit connu. Maintenant je suis charme d'apprendre par vous, que dans ces dernieres circonstances, ils n'ayent point dementi leur caractere." Nevertheless, against those, most exemplary and inoffensive Christians, the present king of Sardinia, at the instigatton of the Jesuits, has lately commenced another deadly persecution, which already has again been counteracted by the interposition of their brethren of the various Reformed Churches in Europe. (Ibid, Footnotes, pg. 713)

Perrin, in this remark, referred to the churches of the Huguenots, at the period when he wrote, 1618. In consequence of the toleration and favor exhibited towards the reformed Christians by Henry IV. for a short time, through divine mercy they were much in the same condition, with the brethren of the primitive race of believers, of whom it is recorded, Acts 9:31, "The churches had rest and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied." All those Waldensian churches were subsequently devastated by the revocation of the edict of Nantes; "so that the flourishing cities set on a hill," whose "zeal and piety" could not be hidden, were overthrown. The few Christians who survived the universal ravages contrived and enforced by Louis XIV. and the Jesuits, were scattered among the protestant countries; some of them even escaping to America, and the pure resplendency of the evangelical light among the Christian churches in France, almost was extinguished. On that same hallowed provence, where the spiritual Ark of God then appeared to have taken up its abode, has been inscribed during the last hundred and fifty years, "Ichabod, where is the glory?" (Ibid, pg. 723)

CHAP. IV.—I HAVE NEED OF HUMILITY.

But I measure myself, that I may not perish through boasting: but it is good to glory in the Lord. And even though I were established in things pertaining to God, yet then would it befit me to be the more fearful, and not give heed to those that vainly puff me up. For those that commend me scourge me. , but I know not if I be worthy to do so. For the envy of the wicked one is not visible to many, but it wars against me. I therefore have need of meekness, by which the devil, the prince of this world, is brought to nought.

Ignatius of Antioch, "The Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 67.

Please allow me to humbly offer an explanation for what a devout Saint wrote ...
From the following paragraph written by Saint Ignatius of Antioch... it means,
that Saint Ignatius was a humble person, not wishing for praise from anyone.
Then he talks of Satan's envy against him,
though it was not visible to many, yet it was directed towards him.
This is the truth about what Saint Ignatius has written,
because whether in that era or in this,
seldom do people believe in the invisible wars which Satan plays on God's chosen.
Yet, it is the truth, no one may see Satan themselves,
yet through his dark accomplices,
he plays his dark games.
Satan does not fear those who are no threat to him,
but he fears those who surrender to God.
Because this surrender makes the chosen as vessels for miracles on the earth.
And this is a powerful reality.
Even before God's elect come on the earth,
God already knows the future
& when these chosen elect come on the earth,
God stamps them with an invisible stamp which Heaven can see & so can Satan.
And Satan trembles at this.
Heaven acknowledges its own & the Holy Spirit powerfully enters the lives of God's chosen.
But this concept few understand as usually people only believe in what they can see.
That is why Saint Ignatius wrote about the devil envying him & waging war against him, because Satan in his vanity, ignorance & conceit thinks that by waging wars against God's chosen he can win
But his vanity has no divine wisdom.
That is why Saint Ignatius said that by his meekness the devil will be brought to nought.
This showed that being submissive, humble & obedient to God,
the devil would be defeated.
As even death could not take Saint Ignatius away from Christ & this was another victory over Satan
& the triumph of Heaven.
To God be the glory forever.
Amen.
According to what I read,
after the ex*cution of Saint Ignatius of Antioch,
his body was checked,
& on his heart was the name of Jesus Christ written in gold letters.
This supernatural happening made many convert to Christianity.
It is also said that Saint Ignatius of Antioch saw a heavenly vision of angels chanting in alternating choirs & then introduced this way of worship in the Church of Antioch.
To Christ be the glory forever.
Amen.

CHAP. V.—I WILL NOT TEACH YOU PROFOUND DOCTRINES.

For might not I write to you things more full of mystery? But I fear to do so, lest I should inflict injury on you who are but babes [in Christ]. Pardon me in this respect, lest, as not being able to receive their weighty import, ye should be strangled by them. For even I, though I am bound [for Christ], and am able to understand heavenly things, the angelic orders, and the different sorts of angels and hosts, the distinctions between powers and dominions, and the diversities between thrones and authorities, the mightiness of the Æons, and the pre-eminence of the cherubim and seraphim, the sublimity of the spirit, the kingdom of the Lord, and above all, the incomparable majesty of Almighty God—though I am acquainted with these things, yet am I not therefore by any means perfect; nor am I such a disciple as Paul or Peter. For many things are yet wanting to me, that I may not fall short of God.

Ignatius of Antioch, "The Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 68.


From the passage above Saint Ignatius simply meant ...
That he did not wish to share about advanced spiritual doctrines as the believers were not matured enough to understand what he would have meant. This was his love & care towards them & not his pride.
He also stated that though he understood about spiritual doctrines,
yet he did not consider himself to be perfect nor could he be a disciple as Paul or Peter.
And he also specifies that he may still lack a few things, & because of that, may he not lose his closeness to Christ.
This showed his humility, deep reverence for Christ & obedience to Him.
To Christ be the glory now & forever,
Amen.

We are all of course, entitled to our own opinions concerning exactly what the "Church Fathers" meant to convey in teaching and about themselves in particular. My intent on this topic, is to compare what they taught with what Holy Scripture teaches. To the effect of agreement with scriptural teaching or not, or extra biblical teaching or not. I am not aware of any other individuals within Holy Scripture, ever asking believers to look upon themselves as though they were God. Therefore did I heartily agree with Ignatius when he stated that he was in need of humility, seeing that he called for believers to do so several times. All believers are in fact in need of humility, as sin is a self importance problem from the get go.

My main point in addressing this issue, is to extrapolate upon the effects of the idea that any sinner should be looked upon as God Himself or our Lord Jesus Christ during this New covenant era. Pointing to the development of this extra biblical mindset into a denomination which went a step further and created the position of one supreme Bishop over and above all others and all Christianity as it were. To whom all are supposed to submit, as though he were God as well. If this is not setting oneself up in the temple of God (the Christian Church), as though one were God, then what is?

Nor does Holy Scripture call for any such single leader from among sinners, over all Christianity anywhere. Or declare that any leaders in the New Covenant Church, should be looked upon as God Himself or our Lord Jesus Christ. To the contrary, any man that would claim to stand in this place which belongs to the man Jesus Christ alone who is God, is claiming the position of antichrist. No sinner can be the Savior, King, Priest, Intercessor, or author and finisher of our faith, which our Lord Jesus Christ is to every authentic believer everywhere. Not simply in position or office held, but as literally and actively present with every believer at all times. Unto authentic conviction, conversion, intercession, empowerment, and action concerning the works of God through His own by way of the Holy Spirit of God. Who need not wait for permission to do anything, without the approval of a fellow servant of Christ called a bishop. As Ignatius himself declared, as though all Christinas are bound to do and act only as allowed for by them. Christinas are not, and were not ever meant to be so limited by any one mans limits, or even their own. Rather to be convicted, motivated, and empowered to action by the Holy Spirit of God, unto a work of coordination and action as no mere man can or will ever perform. Amen.

Apart from this, the bible very plainly teaches that all believers are a target of the devil himself, and that they are involved in a spiritual warfare which will continue until our Lord returns to take us home. If very few Christians actually realized or realize this, then the church certainly was and still is in grave danger.

1Pe 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. 4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away. 5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble. 6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time: 7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you. 8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. 10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you. 11 To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Eph 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. 11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; 15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: 18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; 19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel, 20 For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.
 
Give proper respect to the leaders of your church, as those chosen by the body as such and according to biblical teaching. Look not upon any man though, as though they were God and or your Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. In whose place no man may stand, but rather all as His servants working together unto to fulfillment of the gospel commission.

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

: pppp  Wed Aug 19, 2026 - 17:31:59CHAP. V.—I WILL NOT TEACH YOU PROFOUND DOCTRINES.

For might not I write to you things more full of mystery? But I fear to do so, lest I should inflict injury on you who are but babes [in Christ]. Pardon me in this respect, lest, as not being able to receive their weighty import, ye should be strangled by them. For even I, though I am bound [for Christ], and am able to understand heavenly things, the angelic orders, and the different sorts of angels and hosts, the distinctions between powers and dominions, and the diversities between thrones and authorities, the mightiness of the Æons, and the pre-eminence of the cherubim and seraphim, the sublimity of the spirit, the kingdom of the Lord, and above all, the incomparable majesty of Almighty God—though I am acquainted with these things, yet am I not therefore by any means perfect; nor am I such a disciple as Paul or Peter. For many things are yet wanting to me, that I may not fall short of God.

Ignatius of Antioch, "The Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 68.


From the passage above Saint Ignatius simply meant ...
That he did not wish to share about advanced spiritual doctrines as the believers were not matured enough to understand what he would have meant. This was his love & care towards them & not his pride.
He also stated that though he understood about spiritual doctrines,
yet he did not consider himself to be perfect nor could he be a disciple as Paul or Peter.
And he also specifies that he may still lack a few things, & because of that, may he not lose his closeness to Christ.
This showed his humility, deep reverence for Christ & obedience to Him.
To Christ be the glory now & forever,
Amen.

That quote is actually pretty crazy when one understands what he's talking about with "heavenly orders."  I did not know that those designations existed in the 1st century, which is when Ignatius lived (yay Google!).

I associate those words with Pseudo-Dionysius, who lived 4 centuries later, and his book Celestial Hierarchy.

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Sat Aug 22, 2026 - 00:48:07That quote is actually pretty crazy when one understands what he's talking about with "heavenly orders."  I did not know that those designations existed in the 1st century, which is when Ignatius lived (yay Google!).

I associate those words with Pseudo-Dionysius, who lived 4 centuries later, and his book Celestial Hierarchy.

Well, authenticity regarding the writings we are examining which many consider those of the "Church Fathers", is not the topic at hand. Which there are a great many questions and doubts concerning. Nevertheless, since they are considered and put forth as authentic by many, I have chosen to examine their agreement with and or addition to Holy Scripture or not, rather than wrestle with actual authenticity or not. Which is of course, an important subject as well.

CHAP. VI.—ABSTAIN FROM THE POISON OF HERETICS.

I therefore, yet not I, but the love of Jesus Christ, "entreat you that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind, and in the same judgment." For there are some vain talkers and deceivers, not Christians, but Christ-betrayers, bearing about the name of Christ in deceit, and "corrupting the word" of the Gospel; while they intermix the poison of their deceit with their persuasive talk, as if they mingled aconite with sweet wine, that so he who drinks, being deceived in his taste by the very great sweetness of the draught, may incautiously meet with his death. One of the ancients gives us this advice, "Let no man be called good who mixes good with evil." For they speak of Christ, not that they may preach Christ, but that they may reject Christ; and they speak of the law, not that they may establish the law, but that they may proclaim things contrary to it. For they alienate Christ from the Father, and the law from Christ. They also calumniate His being born of the Virgin; they are ashamed of His cross; they deny His passion; and they do not believe His resurrection. They introduce God as a Being unknown; they suppose Christ to be unbegotten; and as to the Spirit, they do not admit that He exists. Some of them say that the Son is a mere man, and that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are but the same person, and that the creation is the work of God, not by Christ, but by some other strange power.

Ignatius of Antioch, "The Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 68.

Interesting that Ignatius here mentions those who taught things contrary to the law, rather than seeking to establish the law. Or those who would alienate the law from Christ, as though such things were of course deception, when he himself taught seedlings of such at the very least. For although the law states the following -

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

While Ignatius himself stated the following -

Let us therefore no longer keep the Sabbath after the Jewish manner, and rejoice in days of idleness; for "he that does not work, let him not eat." For say the [holy] oracles, "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat thy bread."
Ignatius of Antioch, "The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 62–63.

By which apparently, he suggests the part of the fourth commandment I highlighted above, should no longer be kept. Which later Christinas building upon no doubt, commanded should not be kept, but by way of being in danger of anathema from Christ.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3806.htm

Synod of Laodicea (4th Century)

The Canons of the Synod Held in the City of Laodicea, in Phrygia Pacatiana, in which Many Blessed Fathers from Divers Provinces of Asia Were Gathered Together.

The holy synod which assembled at Laodicea in Phrygia Pacatiana, from various regions of Asia; set forth the ecclesiastical definitions which are hereunder annexed.

Canon 29

Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ.


Pope Gregory I (AD 590-604) said :
"Gregory, bishop by the grace of God to his well-beloved sons, the Roman citizens: It has come to me that certain men of perverse spirit have disseminated among you things depraved and opposed to the holy faith, so that they forbid anything to be done on the day of the Sabbath. What shall I call them except preachers of anti-Christ?." Epistles of Gregory I, b.13, epist.1, found in Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers.


The Canons of the Eastern Orthodox Church

II Nicaeanum (787)

Canon VIII.
That Hebrews ought not to be received unless they have been converted in sincerity of heart.

Since certain, erring in the superstitions of the Hebrews, have thought to mock at Christ our God, and feigning to be converted to the religion of Christ do deny him, and in private and secretly keep the Sabbath and observe other Jewish customs, we decree that such persons be not received to communion, nor to prayers, nor into the Church; but let them be openly Hebrews according to their religion, and let them not bring their children to baptism, nor purchase or possess a slave. But if any of them, out of a sincere heart and in faith, is converted and makes profession with his whole heart, setting at naught their customs and observances, and so that others may be convinced and converted, such an one is to be received and baptized, and his children likewise; and let them be taught to take care to hold aloof from the ordinances of the Hebrews. But if they will not do this, let them in no wise be received.

Ok, I read replies by both of you.
I think this discussion has reached a very important point.
And I think these discussions could bridge the gaps between our Christian people.
For long, our people are being divided & that is one of the reasons why Christianity is deteriorating & our people have been suffering.
I'll try my best to explain what's happening.
And this will not include any particular Christians  denominations, organizations or any Christian people.

This is the first part which is totally different from the above posts & is about Satan's influence.
I've been reading about a few groups & I think they don't belong to any denomination,
but from their theories, it seems that they are being led by Satan directly.
And I think these groups have many people & the most surprising thing is how Christians could be so gullible.
And they are straightaway teaching that Our God is not the true God & Satan himself is not a fallen angel,
& instead leading Christians towards a higher force.

Satan who was a fallen angel conspired against God in Heaven & has been deceiving the entire world along with his other fallen angels.
And he has been causing immense suffering, extreme forms of persecution, endless tears, emotional pain, & all manner of tort*re,
how can Satan be a good angel or lead anyone towards goodness?

And these people through their negative teachings are increasing their number of followers.
And this group of Satanic people are just distracting innocent Christians & dividing them.

Satan is master of trickery, deceit, manipulation & lies.
And they are just changing Scripture to suit their own Satanic agenda.
If good people wish to see Satan's games,
then these Satanic groups are the example of how Satan is openly & so clearly spreading his dark agenda, in broad daylight.

Plus there are other individuals who are so gullible, to other theories,
that they are not only changing Scripture but also adding from other viewpoints,
completely changing the meaning of our Christian Scripture.
Whether intentionally or unintentionally,
& people are busy diverting & distracting the attention of Christians.
And this should be stopped.
And the only way is to hold on to Scripture.

Another reason why Christianity is deteriorating is because of the diverse doctrines.
Whereas what is necessary is to keep Jesus Christ as Head of The Church,
any religious group & organization.
And the Word of God is what should lead.
Not the altered version of the Bible which is being done by people just because they think that their own views & thoughts are correct.
So much so, that people have begun to question the written Scripture itself because they just can't get along with each other or jointly agree to common viewpoints.


We don't need diverse opinions which distract our people.
Because these diverse opinions are the viewpoints of people not God or Christ.
The most important thing to realize is that what laws God gave to us,
 Christ came to fulfill the prophecy, not to undo what God had already given.
So those who either misunderstood any verse/verses or purposely misunderstand
& then try to convince others,
are actually going against the very Scripture God gave.

God has given freedom & a free will to humanity but that does not mean that this should be used
to demean, manipulate or deceive our Christian people or ridicule & disrespect our faith.
And this has to stop.
Because for us Christians, Our God is above everything.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:1

Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"
Matthew 4:4

For the word of the Lord is right and true;
he is faithful in all he does.
Psalm 33:4 
Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.
John 7:38


For the Lord gives wisdom;
from his mouth come knowledge and understanding.
Proverbs 2:6

You are my refuge and my shield;
I have put my hope in your word.
Psalm 119:114 

So is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
Isaiah 55:11

Amo, I've also read one of your posts about why some Christians spoke about not keeping the Sabbath.
Interesting discussion.
I've been reading related viewpoints about people,
On the internet,
& will give an explanation for this.
Maybe this will help Christians to finally see things from the same perspective.
And this will not include any particular Christians denominations, organizations or any Christian Saints.
Thanks for reading.

What I have been noticing is that Christian people have different doctrines & viewpoints.
And because of that they are constantly misunderstanding Scripture.
What they think is that what God said has to be forgotten because Christ came & gave a new meaning to everything.
But what they don't understand is that what God stated as a law,
Christ came to fulfill the prophecies not undo what God had already stated.
And Christ was obedient to His Heavenly Father ... God.
That is why when God sent Christ to redeem humanity,
Christ obeyed God.
Even before the earth was made,
Christ existed in Heaven. And just like God knew everything from the beginning so did Christ.
So if God loved & still loves the Jews, so does Christ,
Amen.
Psalm 135:4
For the Lord has chosen Jacob for himself, Israel as his own possession.
Isaiah 41:8
But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend;
Genesis 12:3
I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."

Deuteronomy 14:2
For you are a people holy to the Lord your God, and the Lord has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

Psalm 33:12
Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord, the people whom he has chosen as his heritage!


And even before the earth was made,
by God,
He knew the end & before the end,
He made the beginning.
So if He said that the Jewish people were His chosen & the apple of His eyes,
would Christ have disobeyed God? Never.
Christ loves both the Jews & the Christians.

The Jews are part of God's plan & according to Scripture,
Christ first came through the Jews & will come again through the Jews.
And Scripture teaches us that when Christ will come again,
the Jewish people will believe in the Messiah Christ.

And both the Christians & Jews believe in the same Heavenly Father God.
But Christians believe in Christ as well, who is God Himself & Son of God,
but Jews believe that the Messiah has yet to come. (This is the difference).
For this reason (because of the above mentioned difference), many Christians do not wish to accept Sabbath & consider Jews as having a different doctrine.
Whereas the Holy Bible teaches us believers differently.
God's Word teaches us to stand by the Jews as God already knew that the Jews would eventually accept Christ as the Messiah.
And what the Holy Bible teaches us believers,
we will accept that as the law for us,
Amen.
(And some Jews have even accepted Christ as the Messiah).

Moreover the Prophets & Saints of the Biblical era,
were all Jewish.
in fact the Old Testament is all about God & the Jews.
And God chose the Jews, as His own, for a divine purpose because Christ was going to come in human form from the Jews.
And through Christ & His ministry, the New Testament was written.
And both the Christians & the Jews are God's children. And God loves both.
And God wants both His children ...the Jews & Christians to live in unity & stand by each other.
And God's love & promises are not like the shifting shadows or like the gullible fickle minds of humanity.
What he has promised will hold.
And for all God obeying Christians, His Word is above all,
Amen.

: pppp  Sun Aug 23, 2026 - 06:22:59Amo, I've also read one of your posts about why some Christians spoke about not keeping the Sabbath.
Interesting discussion.
I've been reading related viewpoints about people,
On the internet,
& will give an explanation for this.
Maybe this will help Christians to finally see things from the same perspective.
And this will not include any particular Christians denominations, organizations or any Christian Saints.
Thanks for reading.

What I have been noticing is that Christian people have different doctrines & viewpoints.
And because of that they are constantly misunderstanding Scripture.
What they think is that what God said has to be forgotten because Christ came & gave a new meaning to everything.
But what they don't understand is that what God stated as a law,
Christ came to fulfill the prophecies not undo what God had already stated.
And Christ was obedient to His Heavenly Father ... God.
That is why when God sent Christ to redeem humanity,
Christ obeyed God.
Even before the earth was made,
Christ existed in Heaven. And just like God knew everything from the beginning so did Christ.
So if God loved & still loves the Jews, so does Christ,
Amen.
Psalm 135:4
For the Lord has chosen Jacob for himself, Israel as his own possession.
Isaiah 41:8
But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend;
Genesis 12:3
I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."

Deuteronomy 14:2
For you are a people holy to the Lord your God, and the Lord has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

Psalm 33:12
Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord, the people whom he has chosen as his heritage!


And even before the earth was made,
by God,
He knew the end & before the end,
He made the beginning.
So if He said that the Jewish people were His chosen & the apple of His eyes,
would Christ have disobeyed God? Never.
Christ loves both the Jews & the Christians.

The Jews are part of God's plan & according to Scripture,
Christ first came through the Jews & will come again through the Jews.
And Scripture teaches us that when Christ will come again,
the Jewish people will believe in the Messiah Christ.

And both the Christians & Jews believe in the same Heavenly Father God.
But Christians believe in Christ as well, who is God Himself & Son of God,
but Jews believe that the Messiah has yet to come. (This is the difference).
For this reason (because of the above mentioned difference), many Christians do not wish to accept Sabbath & consider Jews as having a different doctrine.
Whereas the Holy Bible teaches us believers differently.
God's Word teaches us to stand by the Jews as God already knew that the Jews would eventually accept Christ as the Messiah.
And what the Holy Bible teaches us believers,
we will accept that as the law for us,
Amen.
(And some Jews have even accepted Christ as the Messiah).

Moreover the Prophets & Saints of the Biblical era,
were all Jewish.
in fact the Old Testament is all about God & the Jews.
And God chose the Jews, as His own, for a divine purpose because Christ was going to come in human form from the Jews.
And through Christ & His ministry, the New Testament was written.
And both the Christians & the Jews are God's children. And God loves both.
And God wants both His children ...the Jews & Christians to live in unity & stand by each other.
And God's love & promises are not like the shifting shadows or like the gullible fickle minds of humanity.
What he has promised will hold.
And for all God obeying Christians, His Word is above all,
Amen.

Authentic Christianity, is in reality authentic Judaism. Christ came to his own, and most of his own rejected Him. Those He chose from among the Jews who did not, became the true New covenant Israel of God. Whom some began to mockingly call, Christinas. The name stuck. The evil one took advantage of the situation, and created a division used to create confusion since its inception. There is no Israel or authentic Judaism apart from Christ our Lord the promised Messiah of the Jews. Literal Israel of God today, is not the true Israel of God, which are all who are truly in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. 15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. 16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

CHAP. VII.—THE SAME CONTINUED.

Be on your guard, therefore, against such persons, that ye admit not of a snare for your own souls. And act so that your life shall be without offence to all men, lest ye become as "a snare upon a watch-tower, and as a net which is spread out." For "he that does not heal himself in his own works, is the brother of him that destroys himself." If, therefore, ye also put away conceit, arrogance, disdain, and haughtiness, it will be your privilege to be inseparably united to God, for "He is nigh unto those that fear Him." And says He, "Upon whom will I look, but upon him that is humble and quiet, and that trembles at my words?" And do ye also reverence your bishop as Christ Himself, according as the blessed apostles have enjoined you. He that is within the altar is pure, wherefore also he is obedient to the bishop and presbyters: but he that is without is one that does anything apart from the bishop, the presbyters, and the deacons. Such a person is defiled in his conscience, and is worse than an infidel. For what is the bishop but one who beyond all others possesses all power and authority, so far as it is possible for a man to possess it, who according to his ability has been made an imitator of the Christ Of God? And what is the presbytery but a sacred assembly, the counsellors and assessors of the bishop? And what are the deacons but imitators of the angelic powers,7 fulfilling a pure and blameless ministry unto him, as the holy Stephen did to the blessed James, Timothy and Linus to Paul, Anencletus and Clement to Peter? He, therefore, that will not yield obedience to such, must needs be one utterly without God, an impious man who despises Christ, and depreciates His appointments.

Ignatius of Antioch, "The Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 69.

Bishop Ignatius just can't seem to stop declaring that Bishops should be looked upon and even reverenced as the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, who is God. Then even declaring that the apostles instructed the faithful to do so. I wonder exactly where such Holy Scripture is, what verses he is referring to? Where do any of the prophets, or apostles call upon all to look upon them as God or Christ Jesus Himself. Then by extension to look upon the presbyters and deacons in like manner. Only as they are in accord with the bishops of course, who stand in the place of God himself to them, if they are truly faithful. No room for the Holy Spirit of God to act upon the individual believer unto immediate witness or ministry. Oh no, do nothing without the bishop, another sinful extremely limited man such as all others. Whom being disobeyed or not consulted of course, equals not consulting or disobeying God Himself. Blasphemy, pure and simple.

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. 25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

No bishop elected by the body of Christ can even begin to approach being looked upon and or reverenced as the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, the true Shepherd and Bishop of every individual member of the body of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, His Church. Only such as the Apostle Paul described seeking followers after themselves would declare such, and only those who have been deceived would receive such as biblical truth.

Heb 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. 23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: 24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. 26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. 28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

Ignorance alone, of just how high above us our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is, could ever inspire anyone to declare that they or any other sinner should be looked upon, considered, or reverenced as the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. The Alpha and Omega. The Self existing one. The King of kings. The WORD OF GOD. The Creator. The Sustainer. The Savior of all.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Amo, thank you for your reply.
I humbly request you to please consider my point of view.
The Israel of today is the same as the Israel of the Bible.
And God knew this even before he first made the earth.
And when the earth was made by Him & when He proclaimed
that the Jews of the Biblical times were His chosen,
He meant that not only in those times,
but forever the Jews would remain His chosen.
And the Bible provides proof for this.

Psalm 135:4
For the Lord has chosen Jacob for himself, Israel as his own possession.
Isaiah 41:8
But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend;
Genesis 12:3

2 Samuel 7:24
24 You have established your people Israel as your very own forever, and you, Lord, have become their God.

Jeremiah 31:3
"The Lord appeared to us in the past, saying: 'I have loved you with an everlasting love; I have drawn you with unfailing kindness.'"


Then further proof is given in Revelation 20.
Revelation 20
The Judgment of Satan
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false teacher had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This Biblical verse clearly tells of Satan who will gather his accomplices for battle against the camp of God's people, the city he loves ...& that is God's chosen Israel.
This clearly shows that the city which God loves which will be under  attack from Satan will be the Israel of the future which is the same as that of the Biblical times.
And fire will come down from heaven and devour them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false teacher had been thrown.

God's Word teaches us to stand by the Jews as God already knew that the Jews would eventually accept the Messiah,
which again proves that the Israel of the future is the same as that of the Biblical times.
According to Paul, during the Second Coming of the Saviour,
The Jews will accept the Messiah,
which again proves that the Israel of the future is the same as that of the Biblical times.

Revelation 13
5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7 It was given power to wage war against God's holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.
2 Thessalonians 2:8
"And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming"

Revelation 19:11-20
Christ is described on a white horse defeating the beast and false prophet, casting them into the lake of fire.
Revelation 13 again states wage war against God's holy people to conquer them.
But will be defeated by Christ.
According to the verse, the Holy People will be the future Israel,
Which is the same as that of the Biblical times.

There are already some Jews have even accepted the Messiah,
 the Son of God, & God Himself
& are even helping other Jews to accept the Messiah.
And God knew this in advance, thus proving that the Israel of Biblical times is the same as that of the present times & of the future.

Whatever has been ordained by God, will be fulfilled & His Words will remain forever.
Luke 1:37
''For no word from God will ever fail."
Amen.

: pppp  Mon Aug 24, 2026 - 03:34:38Amo, thank you for your reply.
I humbly request you to please consider my point of view.
The Israel of today is the same as the Israel of the Bible.
And God knew this even before he first made the earth.
And when the earth was made by Him & when He proclaimed
that the Jews of the Biblical times were His chosen,
He meant that not only in those times,
but forever the Jews would remain His chosen.
And the Bible provides proof for this.

Psalm 135:4
For the Lord has chosen Jacob for himself, Israel as his own possession.
Isaiah 41:8
But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend;
Genesis 12:3

2 Samuel 7:24
24 You have established your people Israel as your very own forever, and you, Lord, have become their God.

Jeremiah 31:3
"The Lord appeared to us in the past, saying: 'I have loved you with an everlasting love; I have drawn you with unfailing kindness.'"


Then further proof is given in Revelation 20.
Revelation 20
The Judgment of Satan
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false teacher had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This Biblical verse clearly tells of Satan who will gather his accomplices for battle against the camp of God's people, the city he loves ...& that is God's chosen Israel.
This clearly shows that the city which God loves which will be under  attack from Satan will be the Israel of the future which is the same as that of the Biblical times.
And fire will come down from heaven and devour them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false teacher had been thrown.

God's Word teaches us to stand by the Jews as God already knew that the Jews would eventually accept the Messiah,
which again proves that the Israel of the future is the same as that of the Biblical times.
According to Paul, during the Second Coming of the Saviour,
The Jews will accept the Messiah,
which again proves that the Israel of the future is the same as that of the Biblical times.

Revelation 13
5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7 It was given power to wage war against God's holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.
2 Thessalonians 2:8
"And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming"

Revelation 19:11-20
Christ is described on a white horse defeating the beast and false prophet, casting them into the lake of fire.
Revelation 13 again states wage war against God's holy people to conquer them.
But will be defeated by Christ.
According to the verse, the Holy People will be the future Israel,
Which is the same as that of the Biblical times.

There are already some Jews have even accepted the Messiah,
 the Son of God, & God Himself
& are even helping other Jews to accept the Messiah.
And God knew this in advance, thus proving that the Israel of Biblical times is the same as that of the present times & of the future.

Whatever has been ordained by God, will be fulfilled & His Words will remain forever.
Luke 1:37
''For no word from God will ever fail."
Amen.

Amo, thank you for your reply. I would offer another way of looking at Israel from Scripture—the doctrine of two kinds.

Throughout Scripture we are given the historical, temporal things that can be seen, while through them God teaches us about the eternal things that cannot be seen:

"For the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal." — 2 Corinthians 4:18

That agrees with the law of faith established from the beginning:

"Let there be..."

and then:

"And it was so."

God faithfully speaks, and what His word accomplishes is God alone good.

Jacob and Israel — Two Names, Two Conditions

Look at Jacob.

Jacob was the second-born son. His name is associated in Scripture with supplanting:

"Is not he rightly named Jacob? for he hath supplanted me these two times..." — Genesis 27:36

Esau, meanwhile, placed little value upon his birthright. For bread and lentil pottage he sold it:

"Thus Esau despised his birthright." — Genesis 25:34

Later something remarkable happens to Jacob.

He wrestles through the night and receives a new name:

"Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel..." — Genesis 32:28

So Scripture itself gives us:

JACOB → ISRAEL.

The old name and the new name.

That becomes a beautiful picture of the principle Jesus later states plainly:

"Ye MUST be born again." — John 3:7

Not All Israel Is born again Israel

Paul then makes a distinction that is essential to this discussion:

"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are NOT ALL ISRAEL, WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL." — Romans 9:6

He continues:
"Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children..." — Romans 9:7

Therefore physical descent alone cannot define everything Scripture means by Israel.

Paul makes the same distinction with the word Jew:

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly..." — Romans 2:28

Then comes the other kind:

"But he is a Jew, which is one INWARDLY; and circumcision is that of the HEART, in the spirit, and not in the letter..." — Romans 2:29

There again are the two kinds:

OUTWARD → visible, fleshly.

INWARD → spiritual, of the heart.

Revelation even warns about those who claim the spiritual identity while lacking its reality:

"Which say they are Jews, and are not..." — Revelation 2:9

The New Name

Isaiah also promised that God's people would receive a new name:

"And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a NEW NAME, which the mouth of the LORD shall name." — Isaiah 62:2

And later we read:

"And the disciples were called CHRISTIANS first in Antioch." — Acts 11:26

That name is beautifully fitting for the bride gathered from all nations under her husband Christ.

So I don't understand biblical Israel merely according to modern geography, ethnicity, or fleshly ancestry.

Scripture itself tells me:

Not all Israel is Israel.

Not every outward Jew is the inward Jew.

And likewise, simply wearing the outward name Christian cannot make someone a new creature.

The same principle applies:

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a NEW CREATURE: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." — 2 Corinthians 5:17

That is why the distinction between the two kinds matters.

There is the Israel that can be identified according to the flesh and history, and there is the spiritual reality Scripture tells us to discern by faith.

The living abiding word of God has not failed.

Rather, Scripture itself warns us not to confuse the outward name with the inward new creature.

Jacob → Israel.
Outward → inward.
Flesh → Spirit.

Old creature → new creature.

The question ultimately returns to the same foundation:

"Ye MUST be born again."

I was reading about Saint Ignatius of Antioch & the era in which he lived.
During the time of Saint Ignatius of Antioch ( 35–108 AD),
the Christian religion & Christians faced severe persecution from an empire.
And were being distracted by false teachings.

Christians in that era faced persecution by the state & were being arrested & ex*cuted for refusing to believe in their teachings.
Believers were being forced to deny the Christian faith,
& that was the reason why Saint Ignatius was martyred (because he refused to give up the Christian faith).

And the Christians who were even travelling faced cruel treatment by the authorities.
And the people were being divided by false doctrines.
Under these difficult circumstances, hardships, trials & persecutions,
Saint Ignatius was telling the Christian believers to stay close to the Bishops
& hold on to the teachings that Christ gave to His Apostles.

Even from within, disagreements were dividing the Christian communities.
And without a very strong leadership,
Churches were at risk from  others, who were not believers & by the divided Christian groups,
& that was the reason why Saint Ignatius of Antioch stressed obedience to the higher Church leaders & to be united in the Eucharist as the defense for the survival of Christianity.

thank you garee for your reply.
I have understood what you have written.
But my point of view though different from yours, is taken from the Bible itself, which in itself is The Holy Word of God Almighty.
Please consider my point of view too.

You have written about the Israel which is in the present & whose ancestry is from Abraham.
And God supports this present Israel,
because they too believe in Him.
And The Holy Bible tells us that in future era,
Christ will come through them,
& they have importance in the Holy Bible.

And according to the Scripture, it  tells us that they will believe in the Blessed Messiah, which Almighty God already knew.
Amen.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:1

Your word is a lamp for my feet,
a light on my path.
Psalm 119:105
Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.
John 7:38

The grass withers and the flowers fall,
but the word of our God endures forever.
Isaiah 40:8
Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
Matthew 24:35

The unfolding of your words gives light;
it gives understanding to the simple.
Psalm 119:130

For the word of the Lord is right and true;
he is faithful in all he does.
Psalm 33:4
So is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
Isaiah 55:11

: pppp  Tue Aug 25, 2026 - 05:12:56thank you garee for your reply.
I have understood what you have written.
But my point of view though different from yours, is taken from the Bible itself, which in itself is The Holy Word of God Almighty.
Please consider my point of view too.

You have written about the Israel which is in the present & whose ancestry is from Abraham.
And God supports this present Israel,
because they too believe in Him.
And The Holy Bible tells us that in future era,
Christ will come through them,
& they have importance in the Holy Bible.

And according to the Scripture, it  tells us that they will believe in the Blessed Messiah, which Almighty God already knew.
Amen.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:1

Your word is a lamp for my feet,
a light on my path.
Psalm 119:105
Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.
John 7:38

The grass withers and the flowers fall,
but the word of our God endures forever.
Isaiah 40:8
Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
Matthew 24:35

The unfolding of your words gives light;
it gives understanding to the simple.
Psalm 119:130

For the word of the Lord is right and true;
he is faithful in all he does.
Psalm 33:4
So is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
Isaiah 55:11

Hi pppp, thanks for the reply. I agree with the Scriptures you quoted concerning God's everlasting Word. This question of Israel and ancestry is something I have been studying.

I see Scripture developing two kinds of ancestry: fleshly ancestry and the ancestry of faith—the children of promise.

The second born Like Abraham born again pattern begins early in Genesis.

Cain was born first. Abel followed and became God's early witness of righteousness by faith:

"By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous." — Hebrews 11:4

Cain murdered Abel. Then God gave Seth:

"God... hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew." — Genesis 4:25

Seth is the third son named in this account, which I see fitting the biblical pattern of three bringing a matter to its completion: Abel was killed, but the promised line did not end.

Then Seth had Enos:

"And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD." — Genesis 4:26

I see in this an early picture pointing forward to God's family of faith and ultimately to the promised Seed, Christ.

The same distinction becomes much clearer with Abraham:

"They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." — Romans 9:8

That is the key: flesh is not the same as promise.

We see the distinction again with Isaac and Ishmael, and Jacob and Esau. Jacob was later given a new name:

"Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel." — Genesis 32:28

But Scripture warns us not to identify God's Israel merely by natural ancestry:

"For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel." — Romans 9:6

And:

"He is not a Jew, which is one outwardly... But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly." — Romans 2:28–29

The promised ancestry finally centers upon one Seed—Christ:

"And to thy seed, which is Christ." — Galatians 3:16

Then Scripture opens that family to believers of every nation:

"There is neither Jew nor Greek... for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." — Galatians 3:28–29

That is why I do not see God's eternal family as a holy race, but as a holy people born of the Spirit and joined by faith to the promised Seed.

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." — John 3:6

God is Spirit. He is not a Jewish or Gentile man. He is no respecter of persons.

"In every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." — Acts 10:34–35

So when I read about Israel, I keep the two kinds separate:

Flesh gives birth to flesh.
Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Children of the flesh are not automatically children of the promise.
The promised Seed is Christ.

And that brings us right back to the foundation:

"Ye must be born again." — John 3:7

God's holy people not holy race. Christ is not a racist. God is not dying  Jewish man

Hi garee, thank you for your reply.
I have understood what you're trying to convey.
Though my point of view is different from yours,
but both the viewpoints are supported by the Bible.
Please do reflect on what my point of view is. Thanks.

Ok, you are saying that in order to enter the kingdom of Heaven,
people should believe in Christ.
This is the first point of view according to you.
I also, do believe, that in order to get eternal life & enter the kingdom of Heaven,
faith in Christ is the way. And this is given in Scripture.

The second point of view is mine where I'm writing that God's chosen are the Jewish people.
And Christ will come again through them.
This view point is supported by the Bible as well.


Since both viewpoints are supported by the Bible,
how can they be contradictory? Because God does not contradict Himself.
But to understand how both viewpoints though different are not contradictory & are leading towards the same meaning,
this discussion has to start with understanding the nature of God Himself.
God is not mortal that He will promise & take it back.
Then God is all knowing, can change the future, is present everywhere,
knows the beginning & the end,
compassionate, calm & full of light.
So such a Beloved God, who is limitless & whose wisdom the mortal mind cannot comprehend, when He gave His Word, He already knew what He had written in advance & knew that everything would be fulfilled.

The first viewpoint is correct (yours),
so is the second (mine).
How?
Because through Christ, believers will enter Heaven.
And since God already promise Jacob that his future children will not be consumed,
in itself shows that they too will get a place in Heaven.
And this will not be contradictory because,
after Satan will come along with his two accomplices,
the false teacher & the anti Christ,
& will begin to persecute the Jews,
Christ will come to save them & finally cast the unholy trio in the abyss.
And according to Scripture, when the Jews will see this,
they will believe in the Blessed Messiah.
And so will enter Heaven.
So your point of view & mine are not contradictory because the Holy Bible supports both views.

I also said that Abraham, Isaac & Jacob & their future children were chosen & will be continuously blessed.
This too is supported by the Bible.
And God is just & all are equal to Him.
So the question arises, why were only the Jews chosen of God?
When God chooses someone, it's not because He is unjust or does favouritism, but because in every decision, there is a divine purpose.

And God's divine purpose in choosing the Jews was because they were faithful, & Christ would first come through them, in human form.

Just like God chose Moses, Joshua, Elijah, Elisha, Samuel & a number of other Prophets & Saints.
God chooses on His divine purpose. And He knows that the people He chooses will submit to God, obey, be faithful & walk in the light of God.
And God chose the Jews because they obeyed Him, were brave, upright & righteous.
Amen.

Deuteronomy 14:2 – "For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. Out of all the peoples on the face of the earth, the Lord has chosen you to be his treasured possession."

Deuteronomy 7:7-8 – "The Lord did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. But it was because the Lord loved you and kept the oath he swore to your ancestors." God chose them out of His own love and faithfulness.

Genesis 12:3 – "I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you." God promises protection and blessing to the descendants of Abraham.

Romans 11:1-2 – "Did God reject his people? By no means!... God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew."
Romans 11:29 – "For God's gifts and his call are irrevocable."

Jeremiah 31:35-37 tells about God's commitment to the nation of Israel.
God compares His commitment to the nation of Israel just like the fixed laws the sun, moon, and stars,
stating that only if these natural laws ever fail will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before Him.

And since these laws will never fail, so God's love for the nation of Israel will remain forever.
Amen.

So again my point of view is supported by the Holy Bible.
God is just & correct in absolutely everything He does
& for us Christians,
His Word is a lamp for our feet.
And God loves both Christians & the Jews,
Amen.


Your word is a lamp for my feet,
a light on my path.
Psalm 119:105

This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
1 John 1:5
The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
John 1:5

Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.
Matthew 5:15-16

The precepts of the Lord are right,
giving joy to the heart.
The commands of the Lord are radiant,
giving light to the eyes.
Psalm 19:8

Amen.

: pppp  Wed Aug 26, 2026 - 04:41:59Hi garee, thank you for your reply.
I have understood what you're trying to convey.
Though my point of view is different from yours,
but both the viewpoints are supported by the Bible.
Please do reflect on what my point of view is. Thanks.

Ok, you are saying that in order to enter the kingdom of Heaven,
people should believe in Christ.
This is the first point of view according to you.
I also, do believe, that in order to get eternal life & enter the kingdom of Heaven,
faith in Christ is the way. And this is given in Scripture.

The second point of view is mine where I'm writing that God's chosen are the Jewish people.
And Christ will come again through them.
This view point is supported by the Bible as well.


Since both viewpoints are supported by the Bible,
how can they be contradictory? Because God does not contradict Himself.
But to understand how both viewpoints though different are not contradictory & are leading towards the same meaning,
this discussion has to start with understanding the nature of God Himself.
God is not mortal that He will promise & take it back.
Then God is all knowing, can change the future, is present everywhere,
knows the beginning & the end,
compassionate, calm & full of light.
So such a Beloved God, who is limitless & whose wisdom the mortal mind cannot comprehend, when He gave His Word, He already knew what He had written in advance & knew that everything would be fulfilled.

The first viewpoint is correct (yours),
so is the second (mine).
How?
Because through Christ, believers will enter Heaven.
And since God already promise Jacob that his future children will not be consumed,
in itself shows that they too will get a place in Heaven.
And this will not be contradictory because,
after Satan will come along with his two accomplices,
the false teacher & the anti Christ,
& will begin to persecute the Jews,
Christ will come to save them & finally cast the unholy trio in the abyss.
And according to Scripture, when the Jews will see this,
they will believe in the Blessed Messiah.
And so will enter Heaven.
So your point of view & mine are not contradictory because the Holy Bible supports both views.

I also said that Abraham, Isaac & Jacob & their future children were chosen & will be continuously blessed.
This too is supported by the Bible.
And God is just & all are equal to Him.
So the question arises, why were only the Jews chosen of God?
When God chooses someone, it's not because He is unjust or does favouritism, but because in every decision, there is a divine purpose.

And God's divine purpose in choosing the Jews was because they were faithful, & Christ would first come through them, in human form.

Just like God chose Moses, Joshua, Elijah, Elisha, Samuel & a number of other Prophets & Saints.
God chooses on His divine purpose. And He knows that the people He chooses will submit to God, obey, be faithful & walk in the light of God.
And God chose the Jews because they obeyed Him, were brave, upright & righteous.
Amen.

Deuteronomy 14:2 – "For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. Out of all the peoples on the face of the earth, the Lord has chosen you to be his treasured possession."

Deuteronomy 7:7-8 – "The Lord did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. But it was because the Lord loved you and kept the oath he swore to your ancestors." God chose them out of His own love and faithfulness.

Genesis 12:3 – "I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you." God promises protection and blessing to the descendants of Abraham.

Romans 11:1-2 – "Did God reject his people? By no means!... God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew."
Romans 11:29 – "For God's gifts and his call are irrevocable."

Jeremiah 31:35-37 tells about God's commitment to the nation of Israel.
God compares His commitment to the nation of Israel just like the fixed laws the sun, moon, and stars,
stating that only if these natural laws ever fail will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before Him.

And since these laws will never fail, so God's love for the nation of Israel will remain forever.
Amen.

So again my point of view is supported by the Holy Bible.
God is just & correct in absolutely everything He does
& for us Christians,
His Word is a lamp for our feet.
And God loves both Christians & the Jews,
Amen.


Your word is a lamp for my feet,
a light on my path.
Psalm 119:105

This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
1 John 1:5
The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
John 1:5

Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.
Matthew 5:15-16

The precepts of the Lord are right,
giving joy to the heart.
The commands of the Lord are radiant,
giving light to the eyes.
Psalm 19:8

Amen.

Chosen People—Not a Chosen Race

Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I think we should begin by making an important distinction:

God chose a people for His purpose; He did not teach that one race of flesh and blood is spiritually superior to another.

God certainly made mankind with different nations, languages and earthly families. But when it comes to salvation, God is "no respecter of persons" (Acts 10:34).

Paul gives us the safeguard:

"For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel."— Romans 9:6

So there were always two things that must not be confused:

Israel according to the flesh, with its historical calling and promises;

and

the children of promise, identified through faith.

Paul immediately explains:

"They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."— Romans 9:8

That doesn't erase God's historical dealings with Israel. It tells us that physical ancestry alone never made someone a child of God.

That is why Paul could also say:

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly... But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly."— Romans 2:28–29

And after Christ:

"There is neither Jew nor Greek... for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."— Galatians 3:28

Then Paul identifies Abraham's promised family:

"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."— Galatians 3:29

So yes, Israel was chosen for God's historical purpose. Through that nation came the Scriptures and, according to the flesh, Christ (Romans 9:4–5).

But being chosen for a purpose should not be confused with one race possessing an automatic spiritual inheritance.

God's eternal family is not determined by DNA.

Jew or Gentile, the requirement remains:

"Ye must be born again."

Chosen people—yes.

A spiritually superior race of flesh and blood—no.

God is no respecter of persons, and in Christ believers from all nations become "Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

hi garee, thanks for reading & your reply.
I know, still there are some differences in our points of view, but please again, do consider my point of view too. Thanks.
I think its an interesting discussion & its going to lead to the fact that your point of view & mine are actually supported by the Holy Bible. And whatever God ordained will be fulfilled,
Amen.

To understand these points of view, both yours & mine,
lets start with yours.
According to you, God's family, is not determined by ancestry but by belief in Christ.
So Scripture is supporting your point of view.
Ok, I believe this point of view because God is just, & does not choose by favouritism, but chooses people by their faith in Christ & this is important because the believer enters the Kingdom of God through Christ who is the mediator between God & the believers.
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
John 14:6

Now let's start with my point of view.
I said that God promised Abraham & his offspring, His eternal love.
Now, Abraham's offspring are the present Jewish people & all those non Jews who will believe in Christ.
So all those believers who are not Jews by blood, & will keep Christ in their hearts will become Abraham's spiritual offspring too, & will enter Heaven.

Now, there are two types of believers.
The first ones who were born Christians & so are believers.
The second, are those who hear the Blessed Word & believe.

Just like, doesn't God love people who become believers in Christ, even though it took time for them to accept the Word of God? He does.
So even when it takes time for people to become believers, God waits as He wishes that as many people as possible should follow Christ, to receive the eternal life & a place in Heaven,
& to save them from Satan's darkness.


But what about the present Jewish people who by blood are Abraham's offspring.
Will God forget them? NO.
Because God's promises are not like shifting shadows.
And when God promised Abraham that He would never ever leave them.
He was talking about the offspring of Abraham by blood & by faith.
And God in His undying love, for Abraham, Isaac & Jacob,
will never forsake the present or future Jewish people.
But God is a Heavenly Father as well,
& wouldn't He want Abraham's offspring to enter Heaven?
Of course, He very much wants them to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
That is why Scripture says, that after Satan along with his two evil accomplices comes to persecute the Jews,
Christ will come & throw the unholy trio in the abyss & save the Jewish community.
And after seeing this, the Jewish people will begin to believe in the Blessed Messiah.
And so will also enter Heaven with an eternal life.
Thus the prophecy of God will be fulfilled according to Scripture.
Amen.

So, this shows that both the Jews & Gentiles who will accept the Blessed Messiah will enter Heaven.
Amen.

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
1 John 5:13
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one.
John 10:28-30

For those who find me find life
and receive favor from the Lord.
Proverbs 8:35

So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.
2 Corinthians 4:18

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
John 17:3
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:16
Amen.

And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 'He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
Revelation 21:3-4

But whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.
John 4:14 

'Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them,'
nor any scorching heat.
For the Lamb at the center of the throne
will be their shepherd;
'he will lead them to springs of living water.'
'And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.'
Revelation 7:16-17

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."
Revelation 1:8
 ::amen!::  ::amen!::  ::amen!::

: pppp  Mon Aug 24, 2026 - 03:34:38Amo, thank you for your reply.
I humbly request you to please consider my point of view.
The Israel of today is the same as the Israel of the Bible.
And God knew this even before he first made the earth.
And when the earth was made by Him & when He proclaimed
that the Jews of the Biblical times were His chosen,
He meant that not only in those times,
but forever the Jews would remain His chosen.
And the Bible provides proof for this.

Psalm 135:4
For the Lord has chosen Jacob for himself, Israel as his own possession.
Isaiah 41:8
But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend;
Genesis 12:3

2 Samuel 7:24
24 You have established your people Israel as your very own forever, and you, Lord, have become their God.

Jeremiah 31:3
"The Lord appeared to us in the past, saying: 'I have loved you with an everlasting love; I have drawn you with unfailing kindness.'"


Then further proof is given in Revelation 20.
Revelation 20
The Judgment of Satan
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false teacher had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This Biblical verse clearly tells of Satan who will gather his accomplices for battle against the camp of God's people, the city he loves ...& that is God's chosen Israel.
This clearly shows that the city which God loves which will be under  attack from Satan will be the Israel of the future which is the same as that of the Biblical times.
And fire will come down from heaven and devour them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false teacher had been thrown.

God's Word teaches us to stand by the Jews as God already knew that the Jews would eventually accept the Messiah,
which again proves that the Israel of the future is the same as that of the Biblical times.
According to Paul, during the Second Coming of the Saviour,
The Jews will accept the Messiah,
which again proves that the Israel of the future is the same as that of the Biblical times.

Revelation 13
5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7 It was given power to wage war against God's holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.
2 Thessalonians 2:8
"And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming"

Revelation 19:11-20
Christ is described on a white horse defeating the beast and false prophet, casting them into the lake of fire.
Revelation 13 again states wage war against God's holy people to conquer them.
But will be defeated by Christ.
According to the verse, the Holy People will be the future Israel,
Which is the same as that of the Biblical times.

There are already some Jews have even accepted the Messiah,
 the Son of God, & God Himself
& are even helping other Jews to accept the Messiah.
And God knew this in advance, thus proving that the Israel of Biblical times is the same as that of the present times & of the future.

Whatever has been ordained by God, will be fulfilled & His Words will remain forever.
Luke 1:37
''For no word from God will ever fail."
Amen.

There have always been a remnant of the Jews who have accepted the Messiah. Our Lord selected His disciples from His chosen nation, through whom He established His church after His ascension. Who were joined by many of their brethren. To whom were added a great many more gentiles, who at first were considered basically Messianic Jews, who later became increasingly separated from those Jews who persecute them. Until the name of Christian was attached to them, at which time the separation began to increase, and the following prophecy began to be fulfilled in taking the kingdom of God away from those Jews who had and continue to reject their Messiah.

Mat 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: 34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. 35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. 36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. 37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. 38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. 40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? 41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. 42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Nevertheless -

Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.......................
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. 19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

Christianity is built upon the faith of God's chosen in Him from the beginning. Therefore is it built upon the faith of Abraham and his children, not the other way around. Therefore will all Israel be saved, and considered children of Abraham only as they share his faith. No one can have their sins taken away but in Christ Jesus alone. Therefore the Jews whom the kingdom of God was taken away from, remain outside according to their own lack of faith, while those who choose to follow their Messiah a grafted back into the vine which is Christ. Amen.

The same holds true today for Christianity. As Christianity has repeated the history of Judaism, in the continuous slides into apostasies and reformations which have taken place throughout its history. Those only who are the original faith in God, which has always been in Christ alone as predicted during the Old Covenant and fulfilled in the New, will have their sins taken away unto salvation.

Gen 3:15  "And I will put enmity (open hostility) Between you and the woman, And between your seed (offspring) and her Seed; He shall [fatally] bruise your head, And you shall [only] bruise His heel."(AMP)

Now to the woman and her seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. 3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. 13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Amo, thank you for your reply.
Yes, its true that all those who believe in Christ will eventually enter Heaven with an eternal life.
And God in His divine mercy wants both the Jews & the unbelievers to become believers in the Blessed Messiah so that they too can enter Heaven & be saved.
But since God had already promised Jacob that his off spring would not be consumed, He already knew in advance what the future will be.
And in the future as written in the Bible,
Satan along with his two evil accomplices will come on the earth to persecute humanity & the Jews,
& then Christ will come & defeat the unholy trio & cast them in the abyss.
And on seeing this, the Jews (current & future off spring of Abraham through blood), will begin to finally believe in the Blessed Messiah & hence will enter Heaven along with the Gentiles,
& then the Gentiles through faith will also become the spiritual offspring of Abraham.

Amo, you have written correctly that Christianity has gone in the continuous slides into Apostasy.
And this is something to be concerned about.
What Christians really need is to be united in Christ.
And follow what the Holy Bible clearly teaches believers rather than relying on those who either don't fully understand or misinterpret or purposely
cause distractions & divisions.

And this unity will eventually lead to a better society, a stronger bonding between Christians & will stop distractions from taking over.
In the Church, Christ should be the Head & the teacher should fully submit to Christ's teachings rather than misconstrue Scripture.
So that the believers can understand what Christ actually meant.

But  whilst many believers are strictly following the Bible, sadly others are either being guided wrongly or they themselves are not fully understanding Scripture.
And this should change.

What Christians need is just a single body where Christ is the Head not human beings,
or we need a single body of united Christians, where Satan in the form of human beings is not dividing or distracting believers.
We need unity in Christ because our Head is Christ Jesus whom we serve, whom we love, whose Word we believe & whom we trust.
And no one can take the place of Christ,
Amen.

No more divided doctrines or distractions. Just our eternal love & faith in Our Beloved Christ Jesus,
who was, is & will be the Head of everything.

I know that my redeemer lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.
Job 19:25

By doctrines & distractions, I mean a set of theories, given by people only, which does not include Scripture.
The True Doctrine is the Word of God given in the Holy Bible.

: pppp  Sat Aug 29, 2026 - 10:19:09Amo, thank you for your reply.
Yes, its true that all those who believe in Christ will eventually enter Heaven with an eternal life.
And God in His divine mercy wants both the Jews & the unbelievers to become believers in the Blessed Messiah so that they too can enter Heaven & be saved.
But since God had already promised Jacob that his off spring would not be consumed, He already knew in advance what the future will be.
And in the future as written in the Bible,
Satan along with his two evil accomplices will come on the earth to persecute humanity & the Jews,
& then Christ will come & defeat the unholy trio & cast them in the abyss.
And on seeing this, the Jews (current & future off spring of Abraham through blood), will begin to finally believe in the Blessed Messiah & hence will enter Heaven along with the Gentiles,
& then the Gentiles through faith will also become the spiritual offspring of Abraham.

So, just exactly who do you think has been behind all the persecution of Christians and Jews throughout history until now? And if such will convert all the Jews at some point in the future because of persecution, then why hasn't it done such in the many past persecutions of Jews and Christians?

: pppp  Sat Aug 29, 2026 - 11:10:11Amo, you have written correctly that Christianity has gone in the continuous slides into Apostasy.
And this is something to be concerned about.
What Christians really need is to be united in Christ.
And follow what the Holy Bible clearly teaches believers rather than relying on those who either don't fully understand or misinterpret or purposely
cause distractions & divisions.

And this unity will eventually lead to a better society, a stronger bonding between Christians & will stop distractions from taking over.
In the Church, Christ should be the Head & the teacher should fully submit to Christ's teachings rather than misconstrue Scripture.
So that the believers can understand what Christ actually meant.

But  whilst many believers are strictly following the Bible, sadly others are either being guided wrongly or they themselves are not fully understanding Scripture.
And this should change.

What Christians need is just a single body where Christ is the Head not human beings,
or we need a single body of united Christians, where Satan in the form of human beings is not dividing or distracting believers.
We need unity in Christ because our Head is Christ Jesus whom we serve, whom we love, whose Word we believe & whom we trust.
And no one can take the place of Christ,
Amen.

No more divided doctrines or distractions. Just our eternal love & faith in Our Beloved Christ Jesus,
who was, is & will be the Head of everything.

I know that my redeemer lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.
Job 19:25

There is no authentic unity in Christ, by ignoring doctrinal differences. Such would have to include ignoring doctrinal truths of Holy Scripture. Forsaking the truth for the sake of unity, only leads to apostasy. If unity is not in and of the truth, then what is it, but a lie.

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Jesus Christ is the truth.

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Everyone who is of the truth hears His voice.

Jhn 18:36  Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. 37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Only those who love the truth will be saved. All the lost will be lost because they had not a love of the truth.

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

No one who has believed or taught lies will be in heaven.

Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

There can be no authentic unity between truth and error. If people will simply forget what they believe to be truth, for the sake of an outward show of unity, they will simply be apostate. God will spue or vomit them out of His mouth.

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; 15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. 17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

What could more effectively represent the highlighted condition of God's final Church upon earth, than all the professed Christinas coming together in some false form of unity, which requires that they all remain silent regarding that which they deem to be the truth? Not just the truth, but the truths which the Holy Scriptures themselves expound upon?

CHAP. IX.—REFERENCE TO THE HISTORY OF CHRIST.

Stop your ears, therefore, when any one speaks to you at variance with Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who was descended from David, and was also of Mary; who was truly begotten of God and of the Virgin, but not after the same manner. For indeed God and man are not the same. He truly assumed a body; for "the Word was made flesh," and lived upon earth without sin. For says He, "Which of you convicteth me of sin?" He did in reality both eat and drink. He was crucified and died under Pontius Pilate. He really, and not merely in appearance, was crucified, and died, in the sight of beings in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth. By those in heaven I mean such as are possessed of incorporeal natures; by those on earth, the Jews and Romans, and such persons as were present at that time when the Lord was crucified; and by those under the earth, the multitude that arose along with the Lord. For says the Scripture, "Many bodies of the saints that slept arose," their graves being opened. He descended, indeed, into Hades alone, but He arose accompanied by a multitude; and rent asunder that means of separation which had existed from the beginning of the world, and cast down its partition-wall. He also rose again in three days, the Father raising Him up; and after spending forty days with the apostles, He was received up to the Father, and "sat down at His right hand, expecting till His enemies are placed under His feet." On the day of the preparation, then, at the third hour, He received the sentence from Pilate, the Father permitting that to happen; at the sixth hour He was crucified; at the ninth hour He gave up the ghost; and before sunset He was buried. During the Sabbath He continued under the earth in the tomb in which Joseph of Arimathæa had laid Him. At the dawning of the Lord's day He arose from the dead, according to what was spoken by Himself, "As Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly, so shall the Son of man also be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." The day of the preparation, then, comprises the passion; the Sabbath embraces the burial; the Lord's Day contains the resurrection.

Ignatius of Antioch, "The Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 70.

The only issue I will address from the above chapter is Ignatius extra biblical application of the title of the Lord's Day to Sunday. This would be in line of course with his previous extra biblical exaltation of Sunday as the Lord's Day above all others as well. A term never applied to the first day of the week in Holy Scripture. The only day Holy Scripture refers to as specifically the Lord's, is the seventh day sabbath of the fourth commandment. Which God Himself called his sabbath many times over in scripture, being also referred to as His sabbath in other scriptures as well. It is one thing to begin a tradition of observing a day in commemoration of the resurrection, it is another thing altogether to claim that this chosen tradition of man is the Lord's Day. Especially if or when such is intended to be taken by all, that the Lord Himself declared it to be so. Which no scripture attests to, though some might claim apparently, that He did so extra biblically to them I suppose.

: Amo  Sat Aug 29, 2026 - 15:32:54The only issue I will address from the above chapter is Ignatius extra biblical application of the title of the Lord's Day to Sunday. This would be in line of course with his previous extra biblical exaltation of Sunday as the Lord's Day above all others as well. A term never applied to the first day of the week in Holy Scripture. The only day Holy Scripture refers to as specifically the Lord's, is the seventh day sabbath of the fourth commandment. Which God Himself called his sabbath many times over in scripture, being also referred to as His sabbath in other scriptures as well. It is one thing to begin a tradition of observing a day in commemoration of the resurrection, it is another thing altogether to claim that this chosen tradition of man is the Lord's Day. Especially if or when such is intended to be taken by all, that the Lord Himself declared it to be so. Which no scripture attests to, though some might claim apparently, that He did so extra biblically to them I suppose.

Amo, again, "a sabbath day's journey" appears to reflect a traditional boundary—a law of the fathers concerning how far one could travel—rather than a written command from God specifying a certain number of cubits.

"Then returned they unto Jerusalem... which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey." — Acts 1:12 KJV

Acts records the expression, but where does Moses give that measured travel restriction as God's command?

That is important because Isaiah 58 does not define God's true fast by how far a person may travel.

Quite the opposite.

God rebukes the religious fast that ends in contention:

"Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high." — Isaiah 58:4

There is the wicked fist—religion demanding that its voice be heard on high.

Then God reveals His fast:

"Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness... to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?" — Isaiah 58:6

And what follows?

"Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry...?" — Isaiah 58:7

There is no mileage restriction placed upon sharing that mercy.

That takes me back to the manna and the witness of two days.

FIRST DAY — PREPARATION

"To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe." — Exodus 16:23

Prepare beforehand.

SECOND DAY — EAT AND REST

"Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD." — Exodus 16:25

There is the twofold witness:

Prepare → Eat.
Gather → Rest.
Receive → Share.

And in the gathering:

"He that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack." — Exodus 16:18

Paul later applies that very manna principle to one person's abundance supplying another person's need:

"That now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want." — 2 Corinthians 8:14

Then Hebrews reveals the gospel contained within the historical lesson:

"For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them." — Hebrews 4:2

And:

"For we which have believed do enter into rest." — Hebrews 4:3

So I see the ceremonial Sabbath as a witness of two:

The first day prepares the provision.
The next day receives, eats, and rests in that provision.

Isaiah 58 then shows the fruit of that rest: break the yoke, care for the afflicted, and deal thy bread to the hungry.

No rabbinical measurement can determine how far God's gospel rest may travel.

Christ's commission goes in exactly the opposite direction:

"Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." — Mark 16:15

Not: How far am I permitted to go?

But: Go into all the world.

The temporal ceremonial shadow had its appointed boundaries.

The eternal gospel rest is to be shared with the world.

Amo, you have written ...''So, just exactly who do you think has been ........then why hasn't it done such in the many past persecutions of Jews and Christians?
Firstly the persecution that Jews & Christians have faced is because of Satan & his accomplices.

Revelation 12
.....7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him....
17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God's commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

Secondly, whatever has been written in Scripture is the Word of God Himself, which will certainly & surely come true.
And there should be no misinterpretations, additions or subtractions from it.

Deuteronomy 4:2: "Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you."
Proverbs 30:5-6: "Every word of God is flawless... Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar."

Amo, you have replied -And if such will convert all the Jews at some point in the future because of persecution, then why hasn't it done such in the many past persecutions of Jews and Christians?

Next, Scripture clearly states that only when the Satan sends the False teacher & the antichrist,
& they along with Satan begin to persecute humanity & the Jews,
will Our Beloved Jesus Christ come & defeat all three who are unholy,
& then the Jews will believe in The Blessed Messiah.
Amen.
This has been clearly given in Scripture & whatever God has ordained will be fulfilled, in His divine timing.
Amen.

Revelation 13, Revelation 20-22

Ecclesiastes 3:1: "There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under the heavens."

Isaiah 60:22: "When the time is right, I, the Lord, will make it happen."

Habakkuk 2:3: "For the revelation awaits an appointed time; it speaks of the end and will not prove false. Though it linger, wait for it; it will certainly come and will not delay."

Revelation 13
King James Version
13 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Revelation 20-22
The Final Rebellion
7 And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison (the abyss), 8 and will come out to deceive and mislead the nations which are in the four corners of the earth—[including] Gog and Magog—to gather them together for the war; their number is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they swarmed up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints (God's people) and the beloved city [Jerusalem]; but fire came down from heaven and consumed them. 10 And the devil who had deceived them was hurled into the lake of fire and burning brimstone (sulfur), where the beast (Antichrist) and false teacher are also; and they will be tormented day and night, forever and ever.

: garee  Sat Aug 29, 2026 - 17:12:41Amo, again, "a sabbath day's journey" appears to reflect a traditional boundary—a law of the fathers concerning how far one could travel—rather than a written command from God specifying a certain number of cubits.

"Then returned they unto Jerusalem... which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey." — Acts 1:12 KJV

Acts records the expression, but where does Moses give that measured travel restriction as God's command?

That is important because Isaiah 58 does not define God's true fast by how far a person may travel.

Quite the opposite.

God rebukes the religious fast that ends in contention:

"Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high." — Isaiah 58:4

There is the wicked fist—religion demanding that its voice be heard on high.

Then God reveals His fast:

"Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness... to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?" — Isaiah 58:6

And what follows?

"Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry...?" — Isaiah 58:7

There is no mileage restriction placed upon sharing that mercy.

That takes me back to the manna and the witness of two days.

FIRST DAY — PREPARATION

"To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe." — Exodus 16:23

Prepare beforehand.

SECOND DAY — EAT AND REST

"Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD." — Exodus 16:25

There is the twofold witness:

Prepare → Eat.
Gather → Rest.
Receive → Share.

And in the gathering:

"He that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack." — Exodus 16:18

Paul later applies that very manna principle to one person's abundance supplying another person's need:

"That now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want." — 2 Corinthians 8:14

Then Hebrews reveals the gospel contained within the historical lesson:

"For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them." — Hebrews 4:2

And:

"For we which have believed do enter into rest." — Hebrews 4:3

So I see the ceremonial Sabbath as a witness of two:

The first day prepares the provision.
The next day receives, eats, and rests in that provision.

Isaiah 58 then shows the fruit of that rest: break the yoke, care for the afflicted, and deal thy bread to the hungry.

No rabbinical measurement can determine how far God's gospel rest may travel.

Christ's commission goes in exactly the opposite direction:

"Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." — Mark 16:15

Not: How far am I permitted to go?

But: Go into all the world.

The temporal ceremonial shadow had its appointed boundaries.

The eternal gospel rest is to be shared with the world.

I have no idea what your response is even addressing. My point was simple. The seventh day sabbath is the only day referred to specifically as God's sabbath and therefore day in scripture. No such title is ever attributed to Sunday or the first day of the week. The application is therefore extra biblical.

Exod 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

Exod 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my Sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

Deut 5:14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

Lev 19:3 Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and keep my sabbaths: I am the LORD your God.

Lev 19:30 Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.

Lev 26:2 Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.

Isa 56:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; 5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

Ezek 20:12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them. 13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my Sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them. 14 But I wrought for my name's sake, that it should not be polluted before the heathen, in whose sight I brought them out. 15 Yet also I lifted up my hand unto them in the wilderness, that I would not bring them into the land which I had given them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands; 16 Because they despised my judgments, and walked not in my statutes, but polluted my sabbaths: for their heart went after their idols. 17 Nevertheless mine eye spared them from destroying them, neither did I make an end of them in the wilderness. 18 But I said unto their children in the wilderness, Walk ye not in the statutes of your fathers, neither observe their judgments, nor defile yourselves with their idols: 19 I am the LORD your God; walk in my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them; 20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God. 21 Notwithstanding the children rebelled against me: they walked not in my statutes, neither kept my judgments to do them, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; they polluted my sabbaths: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them, to accomplish my anger against them in the wilderness. 22 Nevertheless I withdrew mine hand, and wrought for my name's sake, that it should not be polluted in the sight of the heathen, in whose sight I brought them forth. 23 I lifted up mine hand unto them also in the wilderness, that I would scatter them among the heathen, and disperse them through the countries; 24 Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols.

Ezek 22: 8 Thou hast despised mine holy things, and hast profaned my sabbaths.

Ezek 22: 26 Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.

Ezek 23:38 Moreover this they have done unto me: they have defiled my sanctuary in the same day, and have profaned my sabbaths.

Ezek 44:24 And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to my judgments: and they shall keep my laws and my statutes in all mine assemblies; and they shall hallow my sabbaths.

Neh 9:13-14 13 Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments: 14 And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant:

Lev 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

Mat 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. 7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. 8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Mrk 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Luk 6:3 And Jesus answering them said, Have ye not read so much as this, what David did, when himself was an hungred, and they which were with him; 4 How he went into the house of God, and did take and eat the shewbread, and gave also to them that were with him; which it is not lawful to eat but for the priests alone? 5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

: pppp  Sun Aug 30, 2026 - 06:11:11Amo, you have written ...''So, just exactly who do you think has been ........then why hasn't it done such in the many past persecutions of Jews and Christians?
Firstly the persecution that Jews & Christians have faced is because of Satan & his accomplices.

Revelation 12
.....7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him....
17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God's commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

Secondly, whatever has been written in Scripture is the Word of God Himself, which will certainly & surely come true.
And there should be no misinterpretations, additions or subtractions from it.

Deuteronomy 4:2: "Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you."
Proverbs 30:5-6: "Every word of God is flawless... Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar."

Amo, you have replied -And if such will convert all the Jews at some point in the future because of persecution, then why hasn't it done such in the many past persecutions of Jews and Christians?

Next, Scripture clearly states that only when the Satan sends the False teacher & the antichrist,
& they along with Satan begin to persecute humanity & the Jews,
will Our Beloved Jesus Christ come & defeat all three who are unholy,
& then the Jews will believe in The Blessed Messiah.
Amen.
This has been clearly given in Scripture & whatever God has ordained will be fulfilled, in His divine timing.
Amen.

Revelation 13, Revelation 20-22

Ecclesiastes 3:1: "There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under the heavens."

Isaiah 60:22: "When the time is right, I, the Lord, will make it happen."

Habakkuk 2:3: "For the revelation awaits an appointed time; it speaks of the end and will not prove false. Though it linger, wait for it; it will certainly come and will not delay."

I'm not adding anything Holy Scripture itself does not teach. The Church, those in Christ, are the true Israel of God since the establishment of the New Covenant. Which is composed of Jews, Gentiles, and all others who have chosen to be in Christ Jesus our Lord. The term that all Israel will be saved is applicable to all of them, but it is not applicable to ethnic Jews who remain outside of Christ. That is to say literal Israel of the flesh, for only those who have chosen to  be of the spirit and not the flesh, can saved. Reborn of the spirit, and not the flesh. Our views of just exactly who the New covenant Israel represents, are apparently different.

Rom 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. 26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? 28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

(All that I've written here is just generally & not directed towards anyone or any group in particular)

Amo I've read your replies & I didn't say that you are adding anything Holy Scripture itself does not teach.
Regarding your next reply which you gave.
What is a doctrine- its simple a set of ideas or theories.
By divided doctrines or distractions,
I simply meant a set of theories or ideas, given by people only, which does not include Scripture.
The True Religious Doctrine is the Word of God given in the Holy Bible.

What I meant generally, was that people just misinterpret the Word of God either purposely or because they don't understand the true meaning.
Next, I was reading on the internet,
was that people have started to add or subtract to Scripture,
which is not allowed.
Some have also started to teach other believers things which
have been taken from other theories.

Another thing which has started for quite sometime now,
is people stating that Satan was not a fallen angel but a good one.
And that there is some other Maker according to them.

These fake theories are being given by people who are followers of Satan, just to divide Christians & so that Satan can finally take over the Throne of God & become king of the earth,
which he can never do.
Besides Satan is full of negatives & only causes darkness & destruction on the earth,
thus proving that he is a fallen angel indeed.

Next, there can be differences of opinions of ideas or views, amongst believers,
That is okay,
But Scripture is not contradictory & if some people inspired by Satan cause differences on purpose, this is not correct.

Differences in opinion is okay as long as these can be sorted out & bring unity amongst all the believers,
& one thing that should be kept in mind & is that the Scripture for all believers is the authentic Word of God,
Which is true, righteous, trustworthy & full of light.

So, not understanding the Scripture sometimes can cause healthy discussions
Or even differences,
But through correct interpretation & understanding,
These differences can be resolved,
Thus leading to greater unity amongst believers.

And there can be unity amongst believers when they finally realize that the truth is in Christ & in His Word.
And He is the Head of the Church & the true God for all believers of Christianity,
& this is important,
because all believers are meant to serve Christ & not human masters,
Amen.

Romans 12:4-5
For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

Romans 12:5
So we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

1 Corinthians 12:27
Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.


Acts 4:32
Now the full number of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said that any of the things that belonged to him was his own, but they had everything in common.

1 Corinthians 1:10
I appeal to you, believers & family in Christ, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

Philippians 2:2
Complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.

Moving on to -

THE EPISTLE OF IGNATIUS TO THE ROMANS

CHAP. IV.—ALLOW ME TO FALL A PREY TO THE WILD BEASTS.

I write to all the Churches, and impress on them all, that I shall willingly die for God, unless ye hinder me. I beseech of you not to show an unseasonable good-will towards me. Suffer me to become food for the wild beasts, through whose instrumentality it will be granted me to attain to God. I am the wheat of God, and am ground by the teeth of the wild beasts, that I may be found the pure bread of God. Rather entice the wild beasts, that they may become my tomb, and may leave nothing of my body; so that when I have fallen asleep [in death], I may not be found troublesome to any one. Then shall I be a true disciple of Jesus Christ, when the world shall not see so much as my body. Entreat the Lord for me, that by these instruments I may be found a sacrifice to God. I do not, as Peter and Paul, issue commandments unto you. They were apostles of Jesus Christ, but I am the very least [of believers]: they were free, as the servants of God; while I am, even until now, a servant. But when I suffer, I shall be the freed-man of Jesus Christ, and shall rise again emancipated in Him. And now, being in bonds for Him, I learn not to desire anything worldly or vain.

Ignatius of Antioch, "The Epistle of Ignatius to the Romans," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 75.

Nobody will be granted salvation by becoming food for wild beasts. Salvation is in Christ alone, not the belly of wild beasts. Nor does our Lord demand any such thing from His Church, but only warned His own that they would be persecuted as He was in this world. Such persecution though, is motivated by the evil one, not demanded by God as a means of salvation for those who might become the victims of the evil one or his minions. Why would any authentic Christian pray that another might be eaten alive by wild animals. Why would any authentic Christian ask others to pray that they would be eaten alive by wild animals. There is something wrong with the picture presented above.

Asking your brothers and sisters to pray that you would have the fortitude from God to stand for the truth unto even death if need be is one thing. Having a death wish by way of being eaten alive by wild animals as a means of one's salvation is another altogether. It is disturbing enough to have such a desire oneself, let alone asking your Christian brothers and sisters to pray for such a death for you as well. Asking them not to intercede for you with God or man, because such will be your salvation. Many people have been unjustly murdered, who were not saved because of such. Nor will anyone ever be saved by such, but in Christ Jesus alone. The spiritual sacrifice to and in Christ Jesus is salvation, not a literal one. The latter having no value unto salvation, without the former being firmly established first. Nor is it, or should it be, or is it required of God, that a literal horrible death must take place unto salvation. Save God Himself determine such unto the glory and honor of His name. It is not a matter which is up to us the decide. Nor do I believe a healthy mind set or witness, as though true Christians should seek such things, but by our willingness in subjection to the word of God alone, over and above the world or dictates of fallen humanity.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

THE EPISTLE OF IGNATIUS TO THE ROMANS

CHAP. IV.—ALLOW ME TO FALL A PREY TO THE WILD BEASTS.



Saint Ignatius of Antioch wanted to be martyred because he believed that suffering & dying for the Christian faith allowed him to take part in the redemptive suffering of Jesus.

To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.
1 Peter 2:21

I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death.
Philippians 3:10


Saint Ignatius called himself God's wheat, & wanted to be ground by the wild beasts as this  grinding would turn him into the "pure bread of Christ",

& wished that the beasts left nothing of his physical body
so that he would not be a burden or cause a shrine to be made
& believed that a true disciple was completely hidden in Christ even if the world could not see his remains.

He also believed that when he would suffer & be the freed-man of Jesus Christ, he would rise again emancipated in Him.

For just as we share abundantly in the sufferings of Christ, so also our comfort abounds through Christ.
2 Corinthians 1:5

He also stated that being in chains he learns not to desire anything worldly or vain.

But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. "Do not fear their threats; do not be frightened."
1 Peter 3:14

For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him.
Philippians 1:29

I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.
Romans 8:18

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?
Romans 8:35

Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.
Matthew 10:39

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
John 11:25-26
Amen.

: pppp  Sat Sep 05, 2026 - 16:33:58THE EPISTLE OF IGNATIUS TO THE ROMANS

CHAP. IV.—ALLOW ME TO FALL A PREY TO THE WILD BEASTS.



Saint Ignatius of Antioch wanted to be martyred because he believed that suffering & dying for the Christian faith allowed him to take part in the redemptive suffering of Jesus.

To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.
1 Peter 2:21

I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death.
Philippians 3:10


Saint Ignatius called himself God's wheat, & wanted to be ground by the wild beasts as this  grinding would turn him into the "pure bread of Christ",

& wished that the beasts left nothing of his physical body
so that he would not be a burden or cause a shrine to be made
& believed that a true disciple was completely hidden in Christ even if the world could not see his remains.

He also believed that when he would suffer & be the freed-man of Jesus Christ, he would rise again emancipated in Him.

For just as we share abundantly in the sufferings of Christ, so also our comfort abounds through Christ.
2 Corinthians 1:5

He also stated that being in chains he learns not to desire anything worldly or vain.

But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. "Do not fear their threats; do not be frightened."
1 Peter 3:14

For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him.
Philippians 1:29

I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.
Romans 8:18

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?
Romans 8:35

Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.
Matthew 10:39

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
John 11:25-26
Amen.

Pretty amazing that you know exactly what was in Ignatius mind, and therefore his reasoning for what he stated, apart from that he himself explained. I know no such things regarding him, or anyone else, for that matter. Just comparing is own testimonies with Holy Scripture, and or examples of our Lord and His apostles. Then sharing my thoughts concerning such.

CHAP. V.—I DESIRE TO DIE.

From Syria even unto Rome I fight with beasts, both by land and sea, both by night and day, being bound to ten leopards, I mean a band of soldiers, who, even when they receive benefits, show themselves all the worse. But I am the more instructed by their injuries [to act as a disciple of Christ]; "yet am I not thereby justified." May I enjoy the wild beasts that are prepared for me; and I pray that they may be found eager to rush upon me, which also I will entice to devour me speedily, and not deal with me as with some, whom, out of fear, they have not touched. But if they be unwilling to assail me, I will compel them to do so. Pardon me [in this]: I know what is for my benefit. Now I begin to be a disciple, and have no desire after anything visible or invisible, that I may attain to Jesus Christ. Let fire and the cross; let the crowds of wild beasts; let breakings, tearings, and separations of bones; let cutting off of members; let bruising to pieces of the whole body; and let the very torment of the devil come upon me: only let me attain to Jesus Christ.

Ignatius of Antioch, "The Epistle of Ignatius to the Romans," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 76.

More concerning Ignatius' seeming death wish. Salvation it would seem, by a literal death of martyrdom. I wonder, is martyrdom really martyrdom, if it is what one truly desires above all else? Does Holy Scripture call us to seek out, pray for, dwell upon, and ask our brethren to participate as well, with our martyrdom?

CHAP. VI.—BY DEATH I SHALL ATTAIN TRUE LIFE.

All the ends of the world, and all the kingdoms of this earth, shall profit me nothing. It is better for me to die for the sake of Jesus Christ, than to reign over all the ends of the earth. "For what is a man profited, if he gain the whole world, but lose his own soul?" I long after the Lord, the Son of the true God and Father, even Jesus Christ. Him I seek, who died for us and rose again. Pardon me, brethren: do not hinder me in attaining to life; for Jesus is the life of believers. Do not wish to keep me in a state of death, for life without Christ is death. While I desire to belong to God, do not ye give me over to the world. Suffer me to obtain pure light: when I have gone thither, I shall indeed be a man of God. Permit me to be an imitator of the passion of Christ, my God. If any one has Him within himself, let him consider what I desire, and let him have sympathy with me, as knowing how I am straitened.

Ignatius of Antioch, "The Epistle of Ignatius to the Romans," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 76.

Perhaps the distortion I sense in Ignatius' preoccupation with dying, even being torn apart by wild beasts, is exactly the difference between his own attitude and that of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ's, immediately prior to the above referred to passion of Christ.

Mat 26:37 And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy. 38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me. 39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. 40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour? 41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak. 42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

Our Lord did not have a death wish. He became one of us, and as such, He desired to live and escape humiliation. Neither being that which one should naturally desire, but rather accept by way of sacrifice, should the Lord require such of us for the glory and honor of His name. Nor did, does, or will anyone of us ever understand just how necessary His death was for our salvation, than our Savior. Nevertheless, He went through with the ultimate sacrifice for us. AMEN.

"The Epistle of Ignatius to the Romans,"a violation no adding to the perfect

Ignatius is long gone

The Combined Work — His Labor of Love

The sufferings unto death Not dead-- Christ cannot die the demonstration of the combined work of Christ the Holy Father and the Son of man Jesus—two working as one.

The visible suffering of the Son of man points us to the unseen work of the Holy Spirit. The pouring out is a parable of Spirit life being poured upon dying flesh and blood. The eternal Spirit does not become dying flesh; rather, the Father demonstrates His power and will through the Son of man Jesus.

Jesus said:"The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak." — Matthew 26:41

And again:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing." — John 6:63

That helps us understand the earlier command to eat His flesh and drink His blood. Christ Himself directs us away from a merely fleshly interpretation and toward the Spirit: "the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

The drinking of the blood and eating of the flesh therefore points, in my understanding, to receiving by faith the labor of love Christ pours out upon born-again believers.

God even gives us a measure of that same faith by which we may please Him. Jesus sometimes said, "O ye of little faith." Little does not mean none. Even that little faith is sufficient for us to look away from ourselves and toward the One who supplies the power.

That brings us again to the testimony of two:

#1 — "Let there be."
The command and power proceed from the Holy Father.

#2 — "It was good."
What God commands, God performs and declares good.

The law of powerful faith

That is the faith relationship I see demonstrated in the Dynamic Duo: the unseen Holy Father and the visible Son of man Jesus, two working as one. And through that demonstration we learn that eternal life does not come from literally consuming dying flesh and blood.

"The flesh profited nothing."

The spiritual food is the Word received by faith—the labor of love poured out by Christ upon His born-again family.

Saint Ignatius of Antioch
CHAP. V.—I DESIRE TO DIE.
From Syria even unto Rome I fight with beasts, both by land and sea, both by night and day, .....Now I begin to be a disciple, and have no desire after anything visible or invisible, that I may attain to Jesus Christ. Let fire and the cross; let the crowds of wild beasts; ....; and let the very torment of the devil come upon me: only let me attain to Jesus Christ.


Saint Ignatius of Antioch had a true soul.
He had reached a phase in his life,
where he had no intention to enjoy the earthly life ,
rather he wished to give it up because his love was for Christ & to be in Heaven, rather than save his life.
He lived by his soul.
And that was the true way of living for him.

For him earthly comforts or saving his life anymore was of no use,
as he had wholly given himself to Christ.
Every human being is given just one life,
& no one wants to lose it,
but when a person surrenders his life to Christ by his own will,
he shows devotion to Christ.

And Saint Ignatius of Antioch had an undivided loyalty & a deep love & commitment towards the Christian religion & Christ,
& this was shown through his martyrdom.

Galatians 2:20: "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."

Galatians 5:24: "Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its ... desires."

Galatians 6:14: "May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
"Romans 6:8: "Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him."

Saint Ignatius of Antioch
CHAP. VI.—BY DEATH I SHALL ATTAIN TRUE LIFE.

All the ends of the world, and all the kingdoms of this earth, shall profit me nothing. It is better for me to die for the sake of Jesus Christ, than to reign over all the ends of the earth. "For what is a man profited, if he gain the whole world, but lose his own soul?" I long after the Lord, the Son of the true God and Father, even Jesus Christ. Him I seek, who died for us and rose again. Pardon me, brethren: do not hinder me in attaining to life; for Jesus is the life of believers. Do not wish to keep me in a state of death, for life without Christ is death. While I desire to belong to God, do not ye give me over to the world. Suffer me to obtain pure light: when I have gone thither, I shall indeed be a man of God. Permit me to be an imitator of the passion of Christ, my God. If any one has Him within himself, let him consider what I desire, and let him have sympathy with me, as knowing how I am straitened.



For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
2 Corinthians 5:14-15

Matthew 16:26 (KJV): "For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?"

John 5:24 – "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."

John 11:25-26 – "Jesus said to her, 'I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die.'"

Galatians 2:20 – "I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me."

Philippians 1:21 – "For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain."

1 Corinthians 15:53-54 – "For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality... 'Death is swallowed up in victory.'"

For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
1 Thessalonians 4:14
For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. ......
Romans 6:5-6

I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death.
Philippians 3:10

Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
Revelation 20:6   

: Amo  Sat Aug 22, 2026 - 10:51:41Well, authenticity regarding the writings we are examining which many consider those of the "Church Fathers", is not the topic at hand. Which there are a great many questions and doubts concerning. Nevertheless, since they are considered and put forth as authentic by many, I have chosen to examine their agreement with and or addition to Holy Scripture or not, rather than wrestle with actual authenticity or not. Which is of course, an important subject as well.

I wasn't actually trying to call into question the authenticity of Ignatius.  There seems to be a consensus that he truly wrote in the late 1st century.

I sincerely didn't realize that the teaching of angelic orders existed so early within Christianity.  The gnostic Valentinus taught such a thing in the mid-2nd century, and I thought he was the first.  Might be time to re-examine some of that.

: pppp  Mon Aug 24, 2026 - 03:34:38The Israel of today is the same as the Israel of the Bible.

I don't think I agree?  It kind of depends what you mean by "Israel."

The way God defines it seems to be in terms of belief and obedience.  Modern Israel is not that.

: Amo  Sat Sep 12, 2026 - 19:22:03More concerning Ignatius' seeming death wish. Salvation it would seem, by a literal death of martyrdom. I wonder, is martyrdom really martyrdom, if it is what one truly desires above all else? Does Holy Scripture call us to seek out, pray for, dwell upon, and ask our brethren to participate as well, with our martyrdom?

Martyrdom isn't just the dying part.  The more important part is the testimony of the condemned.

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Mon Sep 14, 2026 - 13:42:08Martyrdom isn't just the dying part.  The more important part is the testimony of the condemned.

its easy to see that some destroy the meaning of martyr and violite the warning not to add or subtract the original meaning  from one holy  word   Deuteronomy 4:2

The Original Meaning of "Martyr"

The Greek word μάρτυς (martys) literally means "witness." Nothing more and nothing less.

 The law of interpretation protects the one "author" and "finisher" "the one who gives his understanding --- do not add new meaning to one word. . It can change all the loving commandments.  Found in Deuteronomy 4:2 another at the end(Rev22) do not add or subtract.

Two working to protect the integrity of Christ the invisible author. The just and justifier our Holy father Christ

A martyr is anyone who testifies to the truth of God's Word, often at the cost of their life, but the emphasis is on faithful witness, not the act of dying itself.----all die in the end

In Sola Scriptural   John the Baptist, Stephen, and the apostles were martyrs because they witnessed God's truth, even unto death.

 Institutional confusion---- Catholic oral tradition  emphasizes suffering or death as a kind of works-righteousness making dying mankind venerable, praise worthy of prayer . .

This can falsely lead to a mindset where the act of dying for faith becomes a venerable merit, rather than faithfulness of Christ being the witness---  yoked with Christ .

True Christian witness is faithful living-- testifying to sola scriptura God's Word not achieving reward through martyrdom. In that way "let the dead bury the dead "

All Believers Are "Martyrs" in the true biblical sense. Every believer who testifies to God's living word--- whether through preaching , obedience, or enduring persecution, is a witness.(martyr ) Death may or may not occur, but the key is faithful testimony. Christ in us

In that sense, all believers are martyrs, because every life lived in obedience is a testimony to God.

The unseen witness of Christ must be mixed with that which is seen the temporal historical dying .  No unseen gospel version given to the father of lies .Not subject to the gospel . .His vision the tip of his lying nose what the eyes see  no hidden manna-- daily bread no understanding of the parables

Thank you Wycliffes_Shillelagh for your reply.

The Israel of today is the same as the Israel of the Bible.
The Children of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob by blood.

 The Holy Bible also mentions that ultimately all those who believe in Christ will also become the children of Abraham spiritually.

And so Israel will include  the present day Israel who are Children of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob by blood & the children of Abraham spiritually.

And so God loves both the Christians & the children of Abraham by blood.
And to understand this, one first needs to understand the nature of God.
The Holy Bible clearly teaches believers that God's promises are not like shifting shadows.
When He makes a promise, He already knows that He will not take them back.

And God already knows the future.
He made the beginning already knowing the future & before the future comes, He made the beginning.
This shows that when God promises, He knows exactly what He's doing.
And God doesn't do favouritism.
In whatever He does, He has a divine purpose.

So when He chose Israel, He already knew why He had chosen them above others.
He knew that through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob & Leah, would come Judah & through him, Our Blessed Saviour Jesus Christ.
The first time, Christ came, He came through Israel,
the children of Abraham through blood.
And the Second time again, Christ will come through the children of Abraham through blood.
And that's given in the Holy Bible.

That is why Scripture says, that after Satan along with his two evil accomplices comes to persecute the Jews,
Christ will come & throw the unholy trio in the abyss & save the Jewish community.
(Revelation 13, Revelation 20;7-10,)
And after seeing this, the Jewish people will begin to believe in the Blessed Messiah.
And so they along with the Christians, will also enter Heaven with an eternal life.
And so Israel will contain both the Jews who are children of Abraham through blood & the Christians who will believe in Our Lord Christ.
Thus the prophecy of God will be fulfilled according to Scripture.
Amen.
Ecclesiastes 3:1: "There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under the heavens."

Isaiah 60:22: "When the time is right, I, the Lord, will make it happen."

Habakkuk 2:3: "For the revelation awaits an appointed time; it speaks of the end and will not prove false. Though it linger, wait for it; it will certainly come and will not delay."


God's everlasting love for Israel (the children of Abraham through blood & the present & future Israel)

Deuteronomy 14:2 – "For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. Out of all the peoples on the face of the earth, the Lord has chosen you to be his treasured possession."

Deuteronomy 7:7-8 – "The Lord did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. But it was because the Lord loved you and kept the oath he swore to your ancestors." God chose them out of His own love and faithfulness.

Genesis 12:3 – "I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you." God promises protection and blessing to the descendants of Abraham.

Romans 11:1-2 – "Did God reject his people? By no means!... God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew."
Romans 11:29 – "For God's gifts and his call are irrevocable."

Jeremiah 31:35-37 tells about God's commitment to the nation of Israel.
God compares His commitment to the nation of Israel just like the fixed laws the sun, moon, and stars,
stating that only if these natural laws ever fail will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before Him.

And since these laws will never fail, so God's love for the nation of Israel (the children of Abraham through blood), will remain forever.
Amen.