Christian Forums

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (marc @ Dec. 17 2002,12:48)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Yep, all those crazies around.  Once they know your age they can steal your identity.   :sarcasim:

Hee Hee Hee.  Go look again marc.[/quote]
Hee Hee Hee.  Go look again marc.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]1.  He would have to objectively and absolutely prove his words were HIS words, and not some evil entity or person.

2.  Any inspired texts would have to be free from corruptions and not rely on "how-it-could-have-been-scenarios" to explain away contradictions.

3.  He would have to tell us how to solve all the problems of this world in the here in now.

4. He would have to personally impale Foy Wallace, Gus Nichols, and other COC preachers with a musical instrument used in worship at First Christian Church.  Just Kidding!

4. (for real) He would have to make his religion clear and concise, with its adherents not needing a professional trained clergy to teach them what their religion and texts really say.
There will be no need for commentaries, ect. that men can lie with.

5.  Those who follow the deity's will are the ones that should be blessed (in this life) while those who do not should be utterly destroyed (in this life).[/quote]

Although I would argue that he's done number 4 but man has put up obstructions, as far as the rest goes I would simly ask:  "why?"  How do you determine what God should be like?  I've visited athiest sites in the past and frankly found too many "if God is real why don't I ever see him down at the 7-11" type arguments.  I've found the thinking on a different level, a level that assumes that we, as humans, get to make up the rules.[/quote]
Which goes back to the question "Who owes god anything?  I did not ask to be created?"

Besides Janine asked the question and I answered as honestly as I could.  You Christians do the same thing without realizing it.  You say "This tree over here is pretty therefore God had to have made it" and infer he exists.  Why should YOU make the rules regarding what proves God's existence?

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (B. H. @ Dec. 17 2002,1:07)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Which goes back to the question "Who owes god anything?  I did not ask to be created?"

Besides Janine asked the question and I answered as honestly as I could.  You Christians do the same thing without realizing it.  You say "This tree over here is pretty therefore God had to have made it" and infer he exists.  Why should YOU make the rules regarding what proves God's existence?[/quote]
It's the beauty of the Christian faith that you don't owe God anything.  You're right, you didn't ask to be created.  However, God loved you enough, he wanted you to enjoy everything he had in store for you.  (I'm sure you have heard that many times before).

I didn't ask to be created either.  But I count it a privilege to know that my God loved me enough that he wanted me to enjoy a full life so he created me.

But even then, he gave me a choice.  He desparately wants a relationship with me, but he will not force himself on me, or anyone else.

Yes, when I look at the world, and I honestly try to reason where it came from, I have to say that something must have created it.  Something can not come from nothing (I know the question some people ask is "Where did God come from then?  He was the starting point, the energy behind everything else.  Other than that, I honestly can not answer the question where he came from.  From looking at the world, I just have to believe someone created it, and my best answer as to whom is the God of the Bible.)

It's tough to prove the existence of God.  Very tough.  Impossible.  Maybe God wants it that way.  He wants us to have to think, and choose based on faith and love.  Maybe, like a good teacher, he doesn't want to hand us everything on a silver platter.

B.H.  While I find the c of C--in its harder accretions, which, apparently, you've known up close and person--to be hard to palate, I'm neither alien nor unfriendly to your quest for God.

The above has it right:  You would seem to be on a quest for God.  In fact, reading your story reminds me a lot of Flannery O'Connor's "Revelation".  Mrs Turpin felt her views/perceptions of God perish--to have a revelation of God, that was at once deeper, more charitable, more resonant to the truth.

In my congregations, I have had ex-LDS, ex-atheists, ex-everything...even ex-independents and c of C's...all of 'em were questing for something other.   Many professed atheism, but kept coming to church, until a still, small voice poked a hole in their assumptions.

B/f this sounds like a sappy sermon, here's my point.  You are intellectually looking for a "better God"--or, as Tillich would put it "the God beyond God".  The God who isn't c of C--rigid and mean, as you have known him.

In fact, some of the atheists it has been my pleasure to have known have been some of the most rigorous persons of faith whom I have ever met.  They rightly point to the Crusades, and the "Sky Diety" a lot of we Christians believe in, and confess "That isn't God."

Faith, B.H., can be a fall "up" as well as a fall "down".  You are questing, and--in fact, by passionately interacting here, you are seeking--God.

I'm sure that you'll object.  And, that's cool.   :p

God allowed Saul to reject, and die to his God-image.  In this season of the Incarnation, we all need to die to our particular false god-images, too--myself, included--to stand under the love of the One whose final name is ineffable, mysterious, and always seductive.  

The mystery?  I know God in Jesus Christ.  And yet:  I don't know him.

Your postings remind me, B.H., of Francis Thompson's poem, "The Hound of Heaven."  Perhaps you know that little jem of insight.  God is always the questing lover and questing Love.

I am sorry that you've been wounded. I respect the rigor you take in professing your non-faith, even though I find that a faith position.  It's just no accident that you are questing here; of course, it's no accident that I'm questing, too.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (spurly @ Dec. 18 2002,9:57)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][/quote]
"Many of the corruptions and discrepencies you referred to were discussed in our theology and Bible classes.  The professors didn't gloss over them, they admitted they were there and tried to give their reasoning as to how they could be explained."

Bh:  That is good.  At least the professors at your Bible college did not try ot cover them up.  What kind of discrepancies did you discuss?

I went to a website one time that purported to have 600 so called Biblical discrepencies, most of them could be explained very easily, although some of them, I admit, could not.  What do I do with the ones that cannot be explained?  Continue to study.  Continue to dig.  Why?  Because I have faith that God's word is true.

BH:  What kind of discrepancies did you see there?

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (spurly @ Dec. 18 2002,9:57)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][/quote]
"Many of the Biblical discrepencies that scholars of the early 18th century through the early 19th century have since been harmonized by archeology and new discoveries like the dead sea scrolls."  

BH:  I must disagree here.  It is true that over 5,000 fragments and manuscripts have been discovered containing verse and other parts of the Bible.  However, what I have read indicates that most of that 5,000 is just fragments of just a few verses at a time.  The whole manuscripts we seem to have (or partially complete ones) are very few and far imbetween.  There is plenty of room to say we do not know just what the Bible said when it was first written and just how much we see today is in fact later additions.


"Any time you would like to PM me some of those that you have, that would be great.  However, other people might be better at untangling certain mysteries than myself.  If you want to let the whole board see some of those, we might all learn from them."

BH:

Okay, I will post them here if you wish.

We are all aware that the Catholic Church has several books in their Bible that Protestant books do not.  That is pretty much a given.  The Ethiopic Church contains many books in their canon not found in either Catholic or Protestant Churches.  The Syriac Church as it exists today also has a different text.

In addition to the above, we have:

1. Four or Five different endings to Mark, consisting of many verses.

2. The story of the adulterous woman is in some versions of John, some it is not.  Some versions of Luke contain the story.

3.  The book of Exodus in some manuscripts has whole chapters  that are not in other manuscripts.

4. The Septuagint and Qumran versions of Isaiah are 1/4th  shorter than the Masoretic text versions.

5. There are variants to the book of Daniel.

6. We have missing books of the Bible--admitted in the Bible ex. Laoadiceans, Corinthians IIA

7. Cases where one verse says one thing in one manuscript of a book but says the exact opposite in another manuscript of the same book.  I'll have too look around for examples in my personal library.  One example (and this is going by my memory here and I could be wrong) is found in Romans where it says "We are saved by faith" and in another manuscript of Romans it says "We are NOT saved by faith."


"It took me a while to figure out what you were referring to with the illusion to demonic forces.  I want to make sure I understand you right.  Are you saying that we can not know for sure that it was the Holy Spirit who inspired certain parts of Scripture, and it may well have been evil spirits?  And how do we know who inspired what?"

BH:  You are correct.  I don't believe in evil spirits but you do. I do believe people added stuff to the BIble to suite their fancy though.  How can you prove absolutely, objectively, and empirically just what belonged in the original Bible?  For all you know, additions may have been written in only to have the orginals perish, thus giving the false impression there is no addition.

"I, like you, wish we could find every original manuscript.  Maybe one of these days the Pauline Corpus or something like that might be found."

BH:  Perhaps one day we will.  Let us look forward to that day.

Sorry, double post.

He already said elsewhere that he cannot prove God does not exist.

Can one prove a negative?

What is this thing you have about "winning" and "being right", BH?

Oh, I forgot.  You're Church of Christ, born/bred/blood/bone.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Guest @ Dec. 21 2002,08:52)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]"There is room for everyone here.  Christian conservatives, Christian moderates, Christian liberals, and ex-Christians turned atheists.  Everyone has a stake in the discussion."
Kevin

You may be right, but if so then the purpose and description of the forum should be changed to reflect that purpose. The purpose of GCM forum in that case is not to "edify" or build up the faith of one "escaping legalism to accept grace" as the name implies, but rather it is an apologetics forum that fosters arguments to prove or disprove the existence of God.  Weak Christians tend to fall by the wayside when the latter is the case even though the faith of "strong" Christians may be made stronger by such discussions.  Which is better...to defend the existence of God against atheism or to encourage those who already have faith?  It all depends on the purpose of the forum. And, no, I do not believe there is room for both on a regular basis.  A good way to measure the effectiveness of either approach is to look at the members who used to post, but no longer do.  Has the forum lost members who used to post regularly?  If so, there is a reason; something about the forum has ceased to maintain their interest.  Also, look at the growth of new members.  Are members joining and staying on a regular basis?  Is keeping discussions about atheism worth losing potential members who might otherwise find a place to strengthen their faith here?  Maybe, I don't know the answer to that.  Personally, I do not care one way or the other, but a forum should have a specific goal in mind. I agree with Charles.[/quote]
I have tried to respect the spirit and intent of this board.  Since I have been allowed back on, I refrain from posting as much as I used to out of respect for the other members.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (spurly @ Dec. 21 2002,10:06)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]"There is room for everyone here.  Christian conservatives, Christian moderates, Christian liberals, and ex-Christians turned atheists.  Everyone has a stake in the discussion."
Kevin

You may be right, but if so then the purpose and description of the forum should be changed to reflect that purpose. The purpose of GCM forum in that case is not to "edify" or build up the faith of one "escaping legalism to accept grace" as the name implies, but rather it is an apologetics forum that fosters arguments to prove or disprove the existence of God.  Weak Christians tend to fall by the wayside when the latter is the case even though the faith of "strong" Christians may be made stronger by such discussions.  Which is better...to defend the existence of God against atheism or to encourage those who already have faith?  It all depends on the purpose of the forum. And, no, I do not believe there is room for both on a regular basis.  A good way to measure the effectiveness of either approach is to look at the members who used to post, but no longer do.  Has the forum lost members who used to post regularly?  If so, there is a reason; something about the forum has ceased to maintain their interest.  Also, look at the growth of new members.  Are members joining and staying on a regular basis?  Is keeping discussions about atheism worth losing potential members who might otherwise find a place to strengthen their faith here?  Maybe, I don't know the answer to that.  Personally, I do not care one way or the other, but a forum should have a specific goal in mind. I agree with Charles.[/quote]
One thing I find interesting is that by the post you made above, you seem to be someone who has been around this forum a long time.  Yet, you have chosen to remain anonymous in this post and just have "guest" show up next to your name.  

I was just curious as to why.

Kevin[/quote]
Funny spurly that you should say that-- for I felt the same thing when I first read it.  I think I know who it is too but will not say.  He is just trying to swithch the discussion off course, that is all.  Seen it attempted a million times before.

B.H.

I realize that you are the resident atheist on the GCM message board, but it also seems like you are somewhat familiar with scripture and may have a had a background in the church.  

So here is my question:  What led you to turn away from God and turn away from the church to try to find truth in other places?  What was your journey toward atheism like?  Would you consider yourself a strong atheist today, or an atheist who recognizes a god might exist, but doesn't want to submit your life to him?

Just curious.  I am praying for you.

Kevin

B.H.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] In other words I see no practical reason to put faith in a god regardless of whether one exists or not. [/quote]

My student dictionary(has simple difinitions that my weak brain can understand :0 )  defines agnostic as a person who believes it is impossible to know whether there is a god or not and it defines atheist as a person who believes there is no god.  Going by what you just told us, you are actually somewhere between an agnostic and an atheist, since you acknowledge that there may be a god but you just don't have a reason to put faith in that god.

I have known some hardline atheists and you have never struck me as having made it to that point.  Thanks for the clarification.  It helps us understand you better.

Now, if this is not too personal, would you mind telling us your age.  One of these days we will probably meet and I don't want it to be too much of a culture shock to me.
My heart might not be able to stand the stress :D

? ? ? ?

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]1.  He would have to objectively and absolutely prove his words were HIS words, and not some evil entity or person.

2.  Any inspired texts would have to be free from corruptions and not rely on "how-it-could-have-been-scenarios" to explain away contradictions.

3.  He would have to tell us how to solve all the problems of this world in the here in now.

4. He would have to personally impale Foy Wallace, Gus Nichols, and other COC preachers with a musical instrument used in worship at First Christian Church.  Just Kidding!

4. (for real) He would have to make his religion clear and concise, with its adherents not needing a professional trained clergy to teach them what their religion and texts really say.
There will be no need for commentaries, ect. that men can lie with.

5.  Those who follow the deity's will are the ones that should be blessed (in this life) while those who do not should be utterly destroyed (in this life).[/quote]

Although I would argue that he's done number 4 but man has put up obstructions, as far as the rest goes I would simly ask:  "why?"  How do you determine what God should be like?  I've visited athiest sites in the past and frankly found too many "if God is real why don't I ever see him down at the 7-11" type arguments.  I've found the thinking on a different level, a level that assumes that we, as humans, get to make up the rules.

To clarify, you are saying, if I'm understanding this right, that you do not believe in God because He is not what you would expect Him to be.  I'm not arguing what type of evidence is required to believe in God (the original question), but rather the validity of our putting expectations on God (an offshoot of your answer).

Then you have never read Lovecraft?  Early twentieth century horror/science fiction.  Cthulthu was one of the elder gods. Big guy with tentacles.

Determining whether a specific Deity exists in order to determine whether God exists is like trying to find a particular speceis of spotted owl in order to prove that birds exist.  The existence of birds must be assumed before it can be determined whether a particular bird exists.  In the same way the existence of God must be decided on before one decides whether a particular Deity exists.

And I know this sounds like a cop out to many (I had a class once where I was told such thoughts were invalid), but each individual must determine for himself whether there is a God.  And part of what tells me there is a God (one thing amony many) is that my own inadequacies point to a higher standard I cannot reach. This realization helps determine the starting point that leads to faith in the Christian God.  This is a general-to-specific process.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (marc @ Dec. 17 2002,1:09)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Why should YOU make the rules regarding what proves God's existence?[/quote]

Ummm, no, that's not what I said.  I was saying who are we to say what God should be like.  Quite a different question.[/quote]
Marc,

That is a good statement.  I don't think that we, because we are finite, can determine the rules to make up what God is supposed to be like.  We have to let him do that.  The question I think B.H. is asking is how do we know which rules are correct, if any rules - we have to use our human minds (which you and I believe were given to us by God).  

Kevin

Kevin,

I have read over your material and will respond to it sometime tomorrow.  I got home late and wish to rest before I reply.

I have enjoyed greatly the discussion going on here.  Too often people will not let the other person speak and be heard.  

I did want to mention that I have found a Foy Wallace book of sermons in my personal library.  I have heard of the name and I cringe to hear him cited in anything.  One thing I believe which I disagree with BH on is the heart of the preachers.  I did not know Mr Wallace but I know many CofC preachers (myself included) and this is not a fair representation.

"BH:  This was a joke against CoC preachers.  I think most of them are dishonest worthless men."

This sounds like there was a great deal more hurt than you were willing to write.  I remember you said something about not being outgoing enough to be supported to go to school.  Is this a reference to "charismatic" or "persuasive" (used car salesman comes to mind)?  I know that I do not fit that description either.

Keep the discussion going, as I said, I am learning from it.
Eric

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (B. H. @ Dec. 18 2002,2:44)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]"For me he has satisfied that question in the following ways:
1 - Prophecies all through scripture, spoken years before the actual events took place, and then came true.  How could this happen?  A God who sits outside of time and is not subject to time so he can see from the beginning to the end, allowed a prophet to know something far in advance and then used that prophet for a mouthpiece.  There are too many fulfilled prophecies for me to believe it was just conincidence."

BH:  You have just assumed those were inspired prophesies by God.  For all you and I really know those prophesies were written down later and portrayed as such by priests taking advantage of a gullible public.  Secondly, remember how the Bible teaches there is a Satan and demons?  How do you know that an evil entity did not inspire those prophesies?  Last, though you will disagree obviously, I think there are plenty of cases where a prophesy was made and they failed.  Many supposed prophesies when later claimed to be fulfilled in the Bible, when looked at in the original context, had nothing  to do with the event that "fulfilled" it.

If I can show you cases where prophesies had been fulfilled in the Koran, would you give up Christianity and become a Muslim?  [/quote]
Even some of the most liberal Bible Scholars date the prophecies of the Old Testament at least one hundred to one hundred and fifty years before the birth of Christ.

I tend to believe the more conservative scholars who put the last old testament prophetic book about 350-400 years before Christ.  But even if the liberal scholars were right, it would still be amazing to me that the events were foretold 100-150 years before his birth.

I am hopeful that the older texts we find, the further back we will be able to push the dates of the prophecies.  The dead sea scrolls pushed them back some.  Maybe we will find something else soon that will date Isaiah to 700 BC.  If that were the case, would that go very far in helping you believe?

I don't think you can ascribe prophecy to demonic spirits or the devil himself.  Here's why.  Unlike God, these beings are created beings.  So, unlike God, they are locked into time and space.  They don't sit outside of time, they are involved in literal time and space.  So they can't forsee the future and tell it like God can.  Just my personal opinion.

If you know of prophecies in the Koran, please let me know them.  I can look up the Koran on the net.

Kevin

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]BH said:  
He would have to tell us how to solve all the problems of this world in the here in now.


SPURLY said:  
If this is an expectation you have before you will believe in the existence of a god, I can see why you are an atheist.  By my question is, why would a god have to do that?  If he were God, why would he want to tell us exactly how to solve every problem we have.  Why wouldn't he want us to use the wisdom and common sense he gave us to help us understand, limited though that understanding may be, our messed up world.  If that were the case, and we never had any problems, why would we need a god?"

BH:  
Why would he have to do that?  Because it would be something no other God has done that has been worshiped by humanity in the past.  As far as you asking about needing god if our problems are solved I respond that we don't need him because he won't help us solve our problems.
[/quote]

Here's a question. ???  How do we determine the guidelines for determining if a god exists, much less the God of the Bible?  Each one of us seems to have different guidelines, how do we know which set of standards to follow?  You seem to think God would do this, because it would prove him to be God.  

I seem to think that if God did this, he would take all of the fun and creativity and mystery out of living and the life that he created would just be boring.

He created life to be complex, beause he is complex.  But then again, that is my subjective opinion.

Kevin

Spurly,

If you don't mind let me respond to your posts before you respond to my replies.  I have poor eyesight and it is very hard for me to read the boards.

Kevin[/quote]
""Here's a question. ???  How do we determine the guidelines for determining if a god exists, much less the God of the Bible?  Each one of us seems to have different guidelines, how do we know which set of standards to follow?  You seem to think God would do this, because it would prove him to be God.  ""

BH:   Every holy book presents its own proof for its God.  The answer simply speaking is that there is no way for you to prove god exists, much less which particular one.


"""I seem to think that if God did this, he would take all of the fun and creativity and mystery out of living and the life that he created would just be boring.

He created life to be complex, beause he is complex.  But then again, that is my subjective opinion."""

BH: Hmm.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][/quote] Spurly Said:
"Here's another question I have for you.  You mentioned a couple of times that we needed to be able to compare Scripture to an absolute moral standard that exists seperate and apart from God.  If this world was created by a God, doesn't it make sense that the absolute moral standard that exists in our world could not be seperated from the one who created it?  I know that sounds like a circular argument, but I think it is true.  What holes do you see in it?"

BH:  As a believer (and this was true of me at one time too) you are conditioned to believe "God said it, so it is right {scientifically, morally, ect}and that is the end of the matter."  Some evil person or entity like Satan would want to take advantage of your faith that "God is right, end of question" to get to you believe false and erroneous doctrines morally, spiritually, and scientifically.  The Devil (or just tricky men) once they brainwash you to believe something came from God, know that you would do whatever they wanted you to do or believe as long as you thought God willed it.

The only way you can know what is truly God's will as compared to evil men forging a doctrine in the Bible and presenting it as  God's will  is to subject God to an absolute objective standard seperate from his own will.  This idea does not detract from the idea of God being all powerful.[/quote]
BH,

I don't have a lot of time right now.  I have to go pick up some Jr. High students.  But this thought keeps occuring to me and I would like to get your take on it, since you have been on both sides of the fence - in the church and out of it.

If there were an absolute moral standard that existed apart from God and God was judged by that standard, wouldn't it make that absolute moral standard God as it places the standard above God himself.  You said that this absolute standard would not detract from God's omnipotence, but I don't see how that can be the case.

Anytime you try to measure the infinite God by something that we can standardize, we diminsh God.  God is incredibly larger than any of our finite minds could ever begin to comprehend.  Not that we are all stupid, it's just that he is so much wiser that when you compare our wisdom to his wisdom, ours comes out looking like foolishness.

For God to be God, he has to be above and beyond.  But what's amazing about the God of the Bible is that he is not only above and beyond, but he came, in the form of the Son, to show us a little bit of what that above and beyond God is like.

Your thoughts?

Kevin

I'll post more later tonight.

I'vek been mulling over something you mentioned earlier in this discussion.   I hope you forgive me, but sometimes it takes my mind a while to digest thoughts.  I have to bring them up over and over again and look at it from many different angles before I can really respond.  I guess I'm like a cow.  

Anyway, here is what you said that I have been ruminating on.  You said that if God does exist, in your mind the following has to be true:
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]5.  Those who follow the deity's will are the ones that should be blessed (in this life) while those who do not should be utterly destroyed (in this life). [/quote]

Here are my thoughts.

If a god did exist, and the primary reason he created the universe was to have a relationship with people whom he loved, he would want those people to have a choice.  He would want them to be able to choose to love him or to choose not to love him.  (I know Calvinists don't believe in free will, but I don't want to go there right now.  That is another subject for another time.  Back to the topic at hand).

If God wanted us to choose to love him, then what you described above would really negate any choice.  Everybody would choose to have a relationship with him, and many people would choose to have that relationship for the wrong reasons.  Either they would choose to have a relationship out of fear of being destroyed, or cursed, in this life (with disease, depression, poverty, pain, etc.), or they would choose to follow him for the blessings that they could get out of it.  Like God was some big politician doling out goodies to his cronies.

But God wants us to choose to have a relationship with him for altogether different reasons.  He wants us to choose to have a relationship with him because we love him.  Plain and simple.

The requirement you are putting on god to prove that he exists would negate that for many people.

Kevin

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (janine @ Dec. 20 2002,12:05)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]He already said elsewhere that he cannot prove God does not exist.

Can one prove a negative?

What is this thing you have about "winning" and "being right", BH?

Oh, I forgot.  You're Church of Christ, born/bred/blood/bone.[/quote]
I do remember him saying that.  But I was just wanting to see what his response would be to that question.

Janine, your comment about church of Christ always wanting to be right, to win, was funny in a sad sort of way.   :doh:

Kevin

Kevin[/quote]
""""""I will readily admit that through the ages some things have been taught by Christians that did not come from God.  And those teachings had devastating effects.  I hope and pray that I do not do that, but because my mind can not get a full grasp on the infinite mind of God, I am sure I do it unknowingly at times.  I just hope the effects aren't devastating.""""""

BH:  You problem goes way beyond what  erroneous ideas Christians may have had individually in the past.  Your problem is that YOUR TEXT is erroneous due to the fact it has been added to and taken away from throughout the past due to man (or devils :p)  the problem, spurly, if I may be so bold, is not your lack of understanding of the will of "god", but the lack of understanding that the very foundation of your faith is corrupt--the Bible. You are locked in a certain mindset regarding the Bible and cannot break free from it.  If you could do so, and I think with more study you will, the fallacies I see in religion will become more apparent and clear to you.

""""I can see that God could have created a world the way you mentioned above, if he chose to.  But what you described is sort of like a parent saying, you can choose to love me, or walk away from me, you can choose to respect me or disrespect me, and whatever you choose there are no consequences for your action.  Any parent knows that to raise a child like that is not really raising them in love at all."""

BH:  God could have created the universe where we have free will, yet always choose to do what he wants and love him.  Why would there be a need for consequences anyway?  We supposedly cannot harm God, and he could have created the world to where even if we could choose to disobey him, we could not harm ourselves or each other through that disobedience.  I think you are just rationalizing the world as it is (value wise) while trying to justify God's not fixing the world.

""""The argument I used above may be based on how the world is today.  However, the world may be that way, because that's the way that it was designed by God.  Which, again is a circular argument.  I keep hitting myself coming and going  :doh:""""

BH: Maybe.  Prove it.

""""I guess what it comes down to more than anything else is this.  I cannot prove beyond a shadow of doubt that God exists.  I can tell you about answered prayer, prophecies that came true, intelligent design in the universe and other arguments from creation, archeological evidence, etc.  But in the end there are refutations for most of that from rational people on the other side of the fence.  (Yes I believe that many atheists and agnostics are rational, even when they deny the existence of God.  Sometimes they are too rational for their own good :crackup: ) """'

BH:  Thank you for the compliment Kevin.

"""And on the other side, you can not prove that God does not exist.""""

BH:  Which I freely admit.  

"""""So I guess it comes down to faith, and which "theory" makes the most sense?  And that is something we have to determine based on our view of the evidence."""""


BH:  But everyone examines the evidence and come to different conclusions.  Some see no God, some see Jehovah, some see Allah, some the "deist" god, ect.


""""I am also trying to figure out why bringing up the whole free will/calvinism debate is like taking a manhole cover off of an abyss that I could fall into."""""

BH:  Don't worry, I told you I would let you back track if you need to.  When I taught school I told my students to at least  try a project assigned them and it was okay to make a mistake.  We could always work together later to find the right answer.  

""""The only thing I can come up with is trying to balance the sovereignty of God, with the free will of man.  Is that what you were referring to?""""

BH:  Not really, I just want to know so far whether Old Scratch or just plain old con have decieved you with fake doctrines forged into the Bible.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]:p My opinion is that faith is where the rubber meets the road.The bible is clear that we believe by faith.We are christians because we choose to believe and atheist choose not to believe.No need to prove either side.

However,we come to these forums for encouragement to our faith,that's what church is all about.I don't believe that atheism and Christianity  belong together on a forum.Kindness,good manners,and love can prevail on both sides and that's good,but belief and unbelief are not compatable.

When we have some who pledge allegiance to the bible and some who deny Gen1:1,there is no room for compatability.

Just my thoughts on a very early morning.God bless,Charles[/quote]
Charles,

I couldn't disagree with you more.   :(  When Paul held a forum on Mars Hill, was everybody there a believer?  No.  When he went to Ephesus, was everybody there a believe?  Of course not - they tried to throw him out of town.  But he still wanted to go into the "forum" where the riot was taking place and discuss the matter with them.

There is room for everyone here.  Christian conservatives, Christian moderates, Christian liberals, and ex-Christians turned atheists.  Everyone has a stake in the discussion.

Kevin

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]My only comment would be that I don't see the forum being dominated by discussions about atheism.  We have a couple of topics here and there, but for the most part (If I hadn't just read the Santa Claus thread I wouldn't have had to qualify that) BH doesn't inject the atheistic viewpoint into other discussions.  If he did, I would agree; that is the problem I have seen on other boards  (a discussion on baptism goes nowhere, for instance, because a poster keeps interrupting with "none of this matters, the Bible's not true").  But generally he doesn't disrupt other topics and keeps his (supposedly) atheistic viewpoints limited to a few threads on that topic.[/quote]
Give credit where credit is due, please.  Before I got banned I DEFENDED the idea that the Bible teaches one must be baptized to have his sins washed away and "be in Christ."  In fact, I got a lot of pm's thanking me for doing so and asking me not to go brag that I as an atheist, was defending a basic Bible doctrine to Christians.  I did not run off to II and brag to the people there (many are ex-CoC's, CC's, DoC's and RC's who would have mocked to scorn) about my defense of baptism and shame the folks on this board.  

I'm not THAT BAD! ;)

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Quote  
My only comment would be that I don't see the forum being dominated by discussions about atheism.  We have a couple of topics here and there, but for the most part (If I hadn't just read the Santa Claus thread I wouldn't have had to qualify that) BH doesn't inject the atheistic viewpoint into other discussions.  If he did, I would agree; that is the problem I have seen on other boards  (a discussion on baptism goes nowhere, for instance, because a poster keeps interrupting with "none of this matters, the Bible's not true").  But generally he doesn't disrupt other topics and keeps his (supposedly) atheistic viewpoints limited to a few threads on that topic.

Give credit where credit is due, please.  Before I got banned I DEFENDED the idea that the Bible teaches one must be baptized to have his sins washed away and "be in Christ."  In fact, I got a lot of pm's thanking me for doing so and asking me not to go brag that I as an atheist, was defending a basic Bible doctrine to Christians.  I did not run off to II and brag to the people there (many are ex-CoC's, CC's, DoC's and RC's who would have mocked to scorn) about my defense of baptism and shame the folks on this board.  

I'm not THAT BAD!  [/quote]

I don't get the connection between what I said and your post.  At all.  I am at a total loss.   ???

It is my impression that the "guest" feature is there for a purpose.  When one chooses to be a guest, then that is their perogative for whatever reason they choose.  If it is something that is "frowned upon", then the feature should be removed. Explanations should not be necessary and implications should not be made as to why one is doing it. I am following all the rules. Are you saying that because I disagreed with you, that I should let my identity be known?  Why?  What difference does it make?  I have not "chosen sides" nor have I suggested anyone leave the forum; I simply gave an opinion, which the last time I looked, one is still allowed to do on here.  I did not even say that I am a Christian. Like BH, I simply gave facts and engaged in an intellectual exercise.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (spurly @ Dec. 16 2002,11:35)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][/quote]
"I realize that you are the resident atheist on the GCM message board, but it also seems like you are somewhat familiar with scripture and may have a had a background in the church."  

BH:

I was raised in the Church of Christ--10 years among the non-class brethren and 12 years among the "mainliners".  I have had very close dealings with "one cup" and "non-institutional"  people as well.  My grandmother was a member of the local Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) at one time.  So, yes, I have firsthand experiences with the so-called Restoration Movement.

One time I had one gospel and around ten epistles memorized with the intent of starting preaching school one day.  However, I could not get sponsored by the preacher(s) at my church so did not get to go.  They did not deem me socialite enough to be a preacher (too introverted), though they felt I would have made a good researcher for the faith behind the scenes after completing the necessary Biblical, Greek, Hebrew, ect. studies.  

Got only as far as a B.S. in History with a minor in Political Science.  I started graduate school but illness and lack of $$$$ kept me from finishing.  My goal now is to develop what I can of a career in retail and SO earn my living honestly.  I would really like to learn more  Greek and  start Hebrew  so as to know when a preacher is lying to me about what the Bible actually says.

"So here is my question:  What led you to turn away from God and turn away from the church to try to find truth in other places?"  

BH:

Really, I just outgrew my religion.  I realized that religion does not have the solutions to my (or the world's) problems and therefore was no longer worthy of my consideration.   By "solutions" I mean fixing the here and now and not having to wait till some afterlife.

"What was your journey toward atheism like?"

BH:

It was gradual and took a couple of years to complete.  A few friends of mine asked me to go over to Internet Infidels and whip on them in the name of the faith.  When I started reading a lot of their arguments (not the jesting and play)  and corresponding with Farrell Till I realized I was wrong.  

"Would you consider yourself a strong atheist today, or an atheist who recognizes a god might exist, but doesn't want to submit your life to him?"

BH:

To me, an atheist is one who has no faith in a god or set of gods. By faith I do not necessarily mean belief in the existence of deity(s) but having trust,love, loyalty, ect. for a said deity.  In other words I see no practical reason to put faith in a god regardless of whether one exists or not.  He/she/it/them has not given me any reason to place any faith,trust, love, ect. in them and therefore from a practical perspective do not exist.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]B.H.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] In other words I see no practical reason to put faith in a god regardless of whether one exists or not. [/quote]

My student dictionary(has simple difinitions that my weak brain can understand :0 )  defines agnostic as a person who believes it is impossible to know whether there is a god or not and it defines atheist as a person who believes there is no god.  Going by what you just told us, you are actually somewhere between an agnostic and an atheist, since you acknowledge that there may be a god but you just don't have a reason to put faith in that god.

I have known some hardline atheists and you have never struck me as having made it to that point.  Thanks for the clarification.  It helps us understand you better.

Now, if this is not too personal, would you mind telling us your age.  One of these days we will probably meet and I don't want it to be too much of a culture shock to me.
My heart might not be able to stand the stress :D[/quote]
I guess you can call me a "weak" atheist.  I personally do not believe there is a deity, but I admit I can't prove it 100%.

I do not wish to reveal my age, address, serial number ect. too many crazies around! :D  Actually I am close to thirty.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (marc @ Dec. 17 2002,12:55)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]? ? ? ?[/quote]
I am close to thirty, marc, and I will leave it at that.  I don't want you stealing my identity!

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (marc @ Dec. 17 2002,1:09)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Why should YOU make the rules regarding what proves God's existence?[/quote]

Ummm, no, that's not what I said.  I was saying who are we to say what God should be like.  Quite a different question.[/quote]
How else can one decide whether a concious deity exists then?

Remember, there are many views as to what a deity is or whether there are several deities.

How could you decide which is the right position to hold?  Is it Baal, Chemosh, Allah, Cthlthu, Quezlacolatl (sp?), Jehovah, aliens-like Von Daaniken theorizes, ect.?

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (marc @ Dec. 17 2002,1:16)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]btw, there are a few Cthlthu cults in this part of the country because of the existence of the actual entrances to the underground lairs not far away.   :alien:[/quote]
EEEEeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwww.

I guess what confuses me about all of this is that you seem to have bought into what is to me the least compelling aspect of Athiesm--the utter dependence on the wisdom of man.  As I've written before I'm much too aware of my own failings to hold myself up as a standard for anything.

btw, I wonder what percentage of people reading this board are scratching their heads at the Cthulthu references.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (marc @ Dec. 17 2002,2:05)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Then you have never read Lovecraft?  Early twentieth century horror/science fiction.  Cthulthu was one of the elder gods. Big guy with tentacles.

Determining whether a specific Deity exists in order to determine whether God exists is like trying to find a particular speceis of spotted owl in order to prove that birds exist.  The existence of birds must be assumed before it can be determined whether a particular bird exists.  In the same way the existence of God must be decided on before one decides whether a particular Deity exists.

And I know this sounds like a cop out to many (I had a class once where I was told such thoughts were invalid), but each individual must determine for himself whether there is a God.  And part of what tells me there is a God (one thing amony many) is that my own inadequacies point to a higher standard I cannot reach. This realization helps determine the starting point that leads to faith in the Christian God.  This is a general-to-specific process.[/quote]
BH:

I have never read Lovecraft though I have heard of him.  So Cthlthu was never worshipped except in the fiction books?

"Determining whether a specific Deity exists in order to determine whether God exists is like trying to find a particular speceis of spotted owl in order to prove that birds exist.  The existence of birds must be assumed before it can be determined whether a particular bird exists.  In the same way the existence of God must be decided on before one decides whether a particular Deity exists."

BH:

But we have shown birds exist.  You have not even proven step 1 "a god exists" so how can you go to step 2 " (fill in deity's name her) as god exists."


"And I know this sounds like a cop out to many (I had a class once where I was told such thoughts were invalid), but each individual must determine for himself whether there is a God.  And part of what tells me there is a God (one thing amony many) is that my own inadequacies point to a higher standard I cannot reach. This realization helps determine the starting point that leads to faith in the Christian God.  This is a general-to-specific process."

BH:

I am not trying to be rude, but I do feel it is a cop out on your part somewhat. Why not realize your own inadequacies and trust Allah of the Koran for answers?   Muslims, Jews, and Christians as well as other faiths have slugged it out over millenia over what amounts to nothing more than opinion over who has the real god.  It was a waste of time, money, lives, ect.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (B. H. @ Dec. 17 2002,2:17)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]BH:

I am not trying to be rude, but I do feel it is a cop out on your part somewhat. Why not realize your own inadequacies and trust Allah of the Koran for answers?   Muslims, Jews, and Christians as well as other faiths have slugged it out over millenia over what amounts to nothing more than opinion over who has the real god.  It was a waste of time, money, lives, ect.[/quote]
Yes BH, much brutality has been done in the name of God or gods.  Much hatred has been done in the name of Christianity and Islam, Judaism and Atheism.

But do the problems of man negate the existance of God?  Because man is messed up in the head, does that mean that God does not exist?

I think that most of the problems that we see with religion causing mayhem boil down to one of two things.  People don't understand who God is and who he wants them to be, or they follow a false god, and instead of being controlled by God they are controlled by the evil side.

Just my two cents,

Kevin

PS  Thanks for being open enough to discuss this in a civil way.  I hope to grow by continuing this discussion.

Would a kindly moderator please clean up my post above. :D

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (B. H. @ Dec. 18 2002,2:44)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]BH:  There are large corruptions in the Bible text  which apparently are not discussed in preaching schools very much or are downplayed.  I will pm you several examples if you want them.

The Bible teaches that there are evil entities such as demons and devils that are out to get man and destroy him.  I'll spare you the references since you know them already.  These corruptions in the text were not all honest scribal mistakes but often times consist of whole chapters and sections of chapters.  The Bible teaches that Satan or demons tempt man to sin and even in some cases can inspire fortune tellers (Acts 16) and inspire false prophets.  The only way you can prove that demons or Satan did not inspire the Bible or parts of it would be to gather up every orginal manuscript of the Bible and compare them to an absolute objective moral standard that exists seperate and apart from God. Most people on the board have heard this already and know where I am going with it.  [/quote]
BH,

Many of the corruptions and discrepencies you referred to were discussed in our theology and Bible classes.  The professors didn't gloss over them, they admitted they were there and tried to give their reasoning as to how they could be explained.

I went to a website one time that purported to have 600 so called Biblical discrepencies, most of them could be explained very easily, although some of them, I admit, could not.  What do I do with the ones that cannot be explained?  Continue to study.  Continue to dig.  Why?  Because I have faith that God's word is true.

Many of the Biblical discrepencies that scholars of the early 18th century through the early 19th century have since been harmonized by archeology and new discoveries like the dead sea scrolls.  

Any time you would like to PM me some of those that you have, that would be great.  However, other people might be better at untangling certain mysteries than myself.  If you want to let the whole board see some of those, we might all learn from them.

It took me a while to figure out what you were referring to with the illusion to demonic forces.  I want to make sure I understand you right.  Are you saying that we can not know for sure that it was the Holy Spirit who inspired certain parts of Scripture, and it may well have been evil spirits?  And how do we know who inspired what?  

I, like you, wish we could find every original manuscript.  Maybe one of these days the Pauline Corpus or something like that might be found.  

Here's another question I have for you.  You mentioned a couple of times that we needed to be able to compare Scripture to an absolute moral standard that exists seperate and apart from God.  If this world was created by a God, doesn't it make sense that the absolute moral standard that exists in our world could not be seperated from the one who created it?  I know that sounds like a circular argument, but I think it is true.  What holes do you see in it?

More in my next post.

Kevin

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (B. H. @ Dec. 18 2002,2:44)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]"BH said: [!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] Those who follow the deity's will are the ones that should be blessed (in this life) while those who do not should be utterly destroyed (in this life).[/quote]

Spurly said:
I'm assuming you are referring to good health, a good life, etc.  But my question for you is this, are those the only real blessings, and are those things really blessings all the time?  Some other extremely blessed blessings are joy, peace, freedom from guilt, contentment, love, justification, friendships, family, etc.  Sometimes good heath and everything going good causes us to take God for granted because we don't need him to provide for us."

BH:  
If god exists he can bless his followers and curse his enemies all the while making sure we do not take him for granted.

If his standards are not going to make things better for us, why follow them.  I think you know very well what I am alluding to here.[/quote]
BH,

I am not sure what you are alluding to in your last sentence in the quote.  Please explain a little more.

I think his standards make life much better here.  If we followed his standards and the people we interact with follow his standards, they would protect his from emotional scars, guilt, pain of separation for children whose parents divorce, many diseases brought on by immoral lifestyles, and much more.

Not only that, following his standards provides joy, hope, peace, contentment, and many other blessings.  Indeed those who follow him are blessed in this life many times over.

Kevin

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (spurly @ Dec. 18 2002,9:57)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][/quote]
"Here's another question I have for you.  You mentioned a couple of times that we needed to be able to compare Scripture to an absolute moral standard that exists seperate and apart from God.  If this world was created by a God, doesn't it make sense that the absolute moral standard that exists in our world could not be seperated from the one who created it?  I know that sounds like a circular argument, but I think it is true.  What holes do you see in it?"

BH:  As a believer (and this was true of me at one time too) you are conditioned to believe "God said it, so it is right {scientifically, morally, ect}and that is the end of the matter."  Some evil person or entity like Satan would want to take advantage of your faith that "God is right, end of question" to get to you believe false and erroneous doctrines morally, spiritually, and scientifically.  The Devil (or just tricky men) once they brainwash you to believe something came from God, know that you would do whatever they wanted you to do or believe as long as you thought God willed it.

The only way you can know what is truly God's will as compared to evil men forging a doctrine in the Bible and presenting it as  God's will  is to subject God to an absolute objective standard seperate from his own will.  This idea does not detract from the idea of God being all powerful.

Spurly,

I guess I am through for now.  Thanks for letting me get caught up.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Fate @ Dec. 19 2002,6:32)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]B.H.,

Why would God play that game with us anyway? :saint:[/quote]
Maybe because he does not exist.

I am not going to get home till after seven o'clock Friday night.  I'll be back on the board sometime after then.

Kevin,
I just don't believe that someone who doesn't believe the bible should be discussing it with believers.Why?entertainment...or a game..or what.

We all like BH,he's fine.It's just his belief system is inappropriate for a christian forum. The heart of an atheist is not the same as the heart of a Christian.Jesus is Lord to one and to the other he is nothing.BH is honest with his feelings and I care for him as a person but his belief system is not in fellowship with our community.

Just my opinion.

God bless,Charles :D

I admit I like to win the debates I get into, but you are a very good friend of mine and do not want to see you "lose".  In all honesty I am going to warn you that you have gotten yourself in a dangerous position here regarding your last post and my reply directly above.  Tread the waters carefully my friend.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]BH,

I am really enjoying this conversation.  But I have a question for you.

It seems the onus is always put on people who believe in a god to prove that their god exists, whether that God be Jehovah, Allah, or Zeus.  

But my question is this.  What if the shoe were on the other foot.  What if someone asked you to prove that a god did not exist?  How would you respond.

Kevin[/quote]
I freely admit I cannot PROVE 100% a god exists no more than I can prove little green men on Mars do not exist or that the city of Corsicana, TX is not run by giant green spiders wearing purple polk-a-dot ties.

:p My opinion is that faith is where the rubber meets the road.The bible is clear that we believe by faith.We are christians because we choose to believe and atheist choose not to believe.No need to prove either side.

However,we come to these forums for encouragement to our faith,that's what church is all about.I don't believe that atheism and Christianity  belong together on a forum.Kindness,good manners,and love can prevail on both sides and that's good,but belief and unbelief are not compatable.

When we have some who pledge allegiance to the bible and some who deny Gen1:1,there is no room for compatability.

Just my thoughts on a very early morning.God bless,Charles

We have had our little side track discussion over whether I should be allowed here or not.  Please let Spurly and I continue our discussion unmolested.

Double post.  My bad.

B.H., what occurence, happening, whatever... what thing, would it take for you to (a) acknowledge there is some sort of God, and (b) decide He is worth committing yourself to?

Yep, all those crazies around.  Once they know your age they can steal your identity.   :sarcasim:

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (janine @ Dec. 17 2002,08:50)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]B.H., what occurence, happening, whatever... what thing, would it take for you to (a) acknowledge there is some sort of God, and (b) decide He is worth committing yourself to?[/quote]
1.  He would have to objectively and absolutely prove his words were HIS words, and not some evil entity or person.

2.  Any inspired texts would have to be free from corruptions and not rely on "how-it-could-have-been-scenarios" to explain away contradictions.

3.  He would have to tell us how to solve all the problems of this world in the here in now.

4. He would have to personally impale Foy Wallace, Gus Nichols, and other COC preachers with a musical instrument used in worship at First Christian Church.  Just Kidding!

4. (for real) He would have to make his religion clear and concise, with its adherents not needing a professional trained clergy to teach them what their religion and texts really say.
There will be no need for commentaries, ect. that men can lie with.

5.  Those who follow the deity's will are the ones that should be blessed (in this life) while those who do not should be utterly destroyed (in this life).

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Why should YOU make the rules regarding what proves God's existence?[/quote]

Ummm, no, that's not what I said.  I was saying who are we to say what God should be like.  Quite a different question.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (marc @ Dec. 17 2002,1:14)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]To clarify, you are saying, if I'm understanding this right, that you do not believe in God because He is not what you would expect Him to be.  I'm not arguing what type of evidence is required to believe in God (the original question), but rather the validity of our putting expectations on God (an offshoot of your answer).[/quote]
My views are my views.

How would YOU tell if deity was Baal or Jehovah, who have conflicting theologies? ANSWER:  your own personal set of standards.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I guess what confuses me about all of this is that you seem to have bought into what is to me the least compelling aspect of Athiesm--the utter dependence on the wisdom of man.  As I've written before I'm much too aware of my own failings to hold myself up as a standard for anything.

btw, I wonder what percentage of people reading this board are scratching their heads at the Cthulthu references.[/quote]
I know.  I had never heard of him before going over to II.  There is one guy over there who claims he used to worship him or something.  It is a strange name and I guess the name stuck in my head for that reason.

I am sorry you have such low self confidence in your species yet you are going to have to use "wisdom of man" to determine which god exists or whether or not a god does not exist.

Now, how do you know the one true deity™ is Jehovah, Baal, Allah, or Quezelcoltl (sp?)?  You are, by default, put in a position where you will actually expect a god to meet your standards to determine his existence.  True,it is possible that a deity exists that could care less what we think and stay off to himself.

That brings me back to my definition of atheism: a lack of faith in deity.  A deity may exists but could care less about us.  That fact, from a personally pragmatic standpoint, is no different than if that deity did not exist.  He could care less about us, how we act, think, ect. so it is no different than if he did not exist.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (B. H. @ Dec. 17 2002,12:57)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]B.H., what occurence, happening, whatever... what thing, would it take for you to (a) acknowledge there is some sort of God, and (b) decide He is worth committing yourself to?[/quote]
1.  He would have to objectively and absolutely prove his words were HIS words, and not some evil entity or person.

2.  Any inspired texts would have to be free from corruptions and not rely on "how-it-could-have-been-scenarios" to explain away contradictions.

3.  He would have to tell us how to solve all the problems of this world in the here in now.

4. He would have to personally impale Foy Wallace, Gus Nichols, and other COC preachers with a musical instrument used in worship at First Christian Church.  Just Kidding!

4. (for real) He would have to make his religion clear and concise, with its adherents not needing a professional trained clergy to teach them what their religion and texts really say.
There will be no need for commentaries, ect. that men can lie with.

5.  Those who follow the deity's will are the ones that should be blessed (in this life) while those who do not should be utterly destroyed (in this life).[/quote]
I thought Janine's question would be too simple.  I had a feeling that there was going to be more than one thing, happening, or circumstance that would convince you to believe that a god exists, much less the God of the Bible.

You said: [!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]He would have to objectively and absolutely prove his words were HIS words, and not some evil entity or person.[/quote]

How would he do this?  From my limited point, being a finite human being, how could he break through and let me know for sure that his words were really his words?

For me he has satisfied that question in the following ways:
1 - Prophecies all through scripture, spoken years before the actual events took place, and then came true.  How could this happen?  A God who sits outside of time and is not subject to time so he can see from the beginning to the end, allowed a prophet to know something far in advance and then used that prophet for a mouthpiece.  There are too many fulfilled prophecies for me to believe it was just conincidence.

2- If there is a god, and that god chooses to reveal himself to us, he would do it ways we could understand.  He did that all through Scripture, and he always kept Scripture consistant so as not to confuse us.

You said: [!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Any inspired texts would have to be free from corruptions and not rely on "how-it-could-have-been-scenarios" to explain away contradictions.[/quote]

I don't know exactly what you mean by "how it could have been" scenarios.  However, if you look at the Scripture down through the ages, what we have now, is pretty consistent with the earliest texts that have been found.  I know there are thorny questions like, how did Mark 16:9-20 get in there?  What happened to the other letters Paul wrote to Corinth?  Etc.  But by and large, we have a copy that is very close to the original.  The mistakes that are in the text can easily be accounted for by copyist errors or errors in translation.  How do you think God could keep his word pure in a fallen world with other forces trying to corrupt it?  If you were God, what would you have done differently (not trying to be facetious).

You said:  [!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]He would have to tell us how to solve all the problems of this world in the here in now.[/quote]

If this is an expectation you have before you will believe in the existence of a god, I can see why you are an atheist.  By my question is, why would a god have to do that?  If he were God, why would he want to tell us exactly how to solve every problem we have.  Why wouldn't he want us to use the wisdom and common sense he gave us to help us understand, limited though that understanding may be, our messed up world.  If that were the case, and we never had any problems, why would we need a god?

You said: [!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]4. He would have to personally impale Foy Wallace, Gus Nichols, and other COC preachers with a musical instrument used in worship at First Christian Church.  Just Kidding![/quote]

Coming from another branch of the restoration movement, I don't even know who those people are.

You said:  [!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]4. (for real) He would have to make his religion clear and concise, with its adherents not needing a professional trained clergy to teach them what their religion and texts really say.
There will be no need for commentaries, ect. that men can lie with.[/quote]

Boy, this would be nice.  But men and women have a tendency to mess up even things that are clear and concise.  Think how many pages of commentaries have been written over the shortest verse in the Bible.  The way I look at commentaries is the way I look at any thing written by man - get the true things out of it, and throw the rest of it away.  That may be one reason God gave us a mind.

You said: [!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] Those who follow the deity's will are the ones that should be blessed (in this life) while those who do not should be utterly destroyed (in this life).[/quote]

I'm assuming you are referring to good health, a good life, etc.  But my question for you is this, are those the only real blessings, and are those things really blessings all the time?  Some other extremely blessed blessings are joy, peace, freedom from guilt, contentment, love, justification, friendships, family, etc.  Sometimes good heath and everything going good causes us to take God for granted because we don't need him to provide for us.

I know you have sincerely thought out where you stand on a lot of these issues.  I know you have searched for truth wherever you can find it.  I just hope you keep searching for truth and searching for God.  I'm sure you've heard the verse before, "You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all of your heart".

Kevin

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]BH:

I am not trying to be rude, but I do feel it is a cop out on your part somewhat. Why not realize your own inadequacies and trust Allah of the Koran for answers?   Muslims, Jews, and Christians as well as other faiths have slugged it out over millenia over what amounts to nothing more than opinion over who has the real god.  It was a waste of time, money, lives, ect.[/quote]

No, definitely, no offense taken.  This actually is the same logic that was used by the conservative Christian teacher of the class I referenced.  He believed that evidence of a God wasn't enough, but instead you should start with evidence of a specific God.  He built his beliefs on evidence of the inspiration of the Bible (and ultimately evidence of the resurrection).

I approach this a little differently, and this goes back to something I said earlier, about our decision concerning the existence of God being an individual thing.  Before I determine whether the Bible tells us about God, I have to determine whether there even is a God.  The general has to e determined before the specific can be considered.  My determination, which I have had to work through on my own, is based on physical, experiential and emotional evidence.  You (as well as the teacher I referenced) would most likely deny the relevance of the experiential and emotional evidence.  And the physical includes many things you have previously stated do not impress you (for a sample check out the scientific articles on John Clayton's "Does God Exist" website).  But they do impress me.  I cannot see that the monarch butterfly knowing just where to go even though it has never been there before is a purely scientific occurance.  And I have read the natural explanations for the symbiotic relationships between specific plants and animals which could not exist without the other and felt I have read more convincing fairy tales.  There are many other reasons I believe in God (most of which you would disregard) that I will not go into here.

But these foundations had to be relaid in my mind before I could steadfastly say that I believe in God of my own free will and not because I was simply taught that God exists.  After these foundations were laid, then I could move on to the more specific questions about who God is.

All of this gets me back to the main point I've been talking around.  This concerns what you would need to see before you believe in God.  I notice with interest that much of the evidence you would require is experiential rather than imperical.  You don't talk about scientific method or natural evidence, but rather about justice in the world and God's people being blessed.  

When I consider this along with your conservative Church of Christ background and your tendency to hang around Church of Christ boards and discuss thing in a reasonable manner (I have seen other Athiests on boards whose main purpose seemed to be to disrupt, but you behave differently), I want to make a logical leap.  This leap tells me that you were taught to trust in a system or perhaps in man, that you were taught that a valid religious belief system is absolutely logical.  I was taught a similar thing, although my upbringing was not nearly as conservative as yours.  And my guess is that when you learned that the system you had been taught to believe in was faulty, your faith slipped away, since your faith had been established in this system and your picture of God was of a God who existed as part of this system.  In other words you were taught that God was fully knowable, and when you discovered that He wasn't who you thought he was (something we all discover eventually), you rejected him.  

I may not be right, but these are my impressions.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][/quote]
"I thought Janine's question would be too simple.  I had a feeling that there was going to be more than one thing, happening, or circumstance that would convince you to believe that a god exists, much less the God of the Bible."

BH:  Don't call Janine simple! :p

"You said: [!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]He would have to objectively and absolutely prove his words were HIS words, and not some evil entity or person.[/quote]"

BH:  There are large corruptions in the Bible text  which apparently are not discussed in preaching schools very much or are downplayed.  I will pm you several examples if you want them.

The Bible teaches that there are evil entities such as demons and devils that are out to get man and destroy him.  I'll spare you the references since you know them already.  These corruptions in the text were not all honest scribal mistakes but often times consist of whole chapters and sections of chapters.  The Bible teaches that Satan or demons tempt man to sin and even in some cases can inspire fortune tellers (Acts 16) and inspire false prophets.  The only way you can prove that demons or Satan did not inspire the Bible or parts of it would be to gather up every orginal manuscript of the Bible and compare them to an absolute objective moral standard that exists seperate and apart from God. Most people on the board have heard this already and know where I am going with it.  

"How would he do this?  From my limited point, being a finite human being, how could he break through and let me know for sure that his words were really his words?"

BH:  He or you need to provide evidence of an absolute objective moral standard that exists seperate from God which even he is bound by.  You write about your limitations.  Let me ask you this?  If you are so limited and worthless intellectually how do you know an evil entity has not deceived you, or just men for that matter by portraying the Bible or parts of ias God's will when it is in fact not so?

"For me he has satisfied that question in the following ways:
1 - Prophecies all through scripture, spoken years before the actual events took place, and then came true.  How could this happen?  A God who sits outside of time and is not subject to time so he can see from the beginning to the end, allowed a prophet to know something far in advance and then used that prophet for a mouthpiece.  There are too many fulfilled prophecies for me to believe it was just conincidence."

BH:  You have just assumed those were inspired prophesies by God.  For all you and I really know those prophesies were written down later and portrayed as such by priests taking advantage of a gullible public.  Secondly, remember how the Bible teaches there is a Satan and demons?  How do you know that an evil entity did not inspire those prophesies?  Last, though you will disagree obviously, I think there are plenty of cases where a prophesy was made and they failed.  Many supposed prophesies when later claimed to be fulfilled in the Bible, when looked at in the original context, had nothing  to do with the event that "fulfilled" it.

If I can show you cases where prophesies had been fulfilled in the Koran, would you give up Christianity and become a Muslim?  


"2- If there is a god, and that god chooses to reveal himself to us, he would do it ways we could understand.  He did that all through Scripture, and he always kept Scripture consistant so as not to confuse us."

BH:  God is supposedly omnipotent so he should have no trouble providing us with an incorrupted text, show us a absolute moral standard seperate and apart from himself so as to know we are not being deceived by men or devils in "the name of God."


"You said: [!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Any inspired texts would have to be free from corruptions and not rely on "how-it-could-have-been-scenarios" to explain away contradictions.[/quote]

I don't know exactly what you mean by "how it could have been" scenarios.  However, if you look at the Scripture down through the ages, what we have now, is pretty consistent with the earliest texts that have been found.  I know there are thorny questions like, how did Mark 16:9-20 get in there?  What happened to the other letters Paul wrote to Corinth?  Etc.  But by and large, we have a copy that is very close to the original.  The mistakes that are in the text can easily be accounted for by copyist errors or errors in translation.  How do you think God could keep his word pure in a fallen world with other forces trying to corrupt it?  If you were God, what would you have done differently (not trying to be facetious)."

BH:  A "how-it-could-have-been-scenario" is a theory developed to explain away contradictions in the Bible.  For example, the "scribal error" defense is such a one.  You do not know that a contradiction was caused by scribal error, you just assume it to be so.  There are other examples I could cite but will pass that on for later.

Again you bring up the quality of the biblical manuscripts as proof of God. You just assume what we have now is very close to the original. A lot of things can happen to a book over time. Let me pm you the examples I mentioned above and we can come back to this later.

One thing I will say now is that an all powerful God, if he exists, could have kept his written word safe somehow someway.  The fact he has not makes the Bible no different from other holy books in that regard.


"You said:  [!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]He would have to tell us how to solve all the problems of this world in the here in now.[/quote]

If this is an expectation you have before you will believe in the existence of a god, I can see why you are an atheist.  By my question is, why would a god have to do that?  If he were God, why would he want to tell us exactly how to solve every problem we have.  Why wouldn't he want us to use the wisdom and common sense he gave us to help us understand, limited though that understanding may be, our messed up world.  If that were the case, and we never had any problems, why would we need a god?"

BH:  Why would he have to do that?  Because it would be something no other God has done that has been worshiped by humanity in the past.  As far as you asking about needing god if our problems are solved I respond that we don't need him because he won't help us solve our problems.

"You said: [!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]4. He would have to personally impale Foy Wallace, Gus Nichols, and other COC preachers with a musical instrument used in worship at First Christian Church.  Just Kidding![/quote]

Coming from another branch of the restoration movement, I don't even know who those people are."

BH:  This was a joke against CoC preachers.  I think most of them are dishonest worthless men.


"'You said:  [!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]4. (for real) He would have to make his religion clear and concise, with its adherents not needing a professional trained clergy to teach them what their religion and texts really say.
There will be no need for commentaries, ect. that men can lie with.[/quote]

Boy, this would be nice.  But men and women have a tendency to mess up even things that are clear and concise.  Think how many pages of commentaries have been written over the shortest verse in the Bible.  The way I look at commentaries is the way I look at any thing written by man - get the true things out of it, and throw the rest of it away.  That may be one reason God gave us a mind."

BH: I'll pass on this part seeing no need for comment at the moment.



"You said: [!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] Those who follow the deity's will are the ones that should be blessed (in this life) while those who do not should be utterly destroyed (in this life).[/quote]

I'm assuming you are referring to good health, a good life, etc.  But my question for you is this, are those the only real blessings, and are those things really blessings all the time?  Some other extremely blessed blessings are joy, peace, freedom from guilt, contentment, love, justification, friendships, family, etc.  Sometimes good heath and everything going good causes us to take God for granted because we don't need him to provide for us."

BH:  If god exists he can bless his followers and curse his enemies all the while making sure we do not take him for granted.

If his standards are not going to make things better for us, why follow them.  I think you know very well what I am alluding to here.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (B. H. @ Dec. 18 2002,10:18)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]

"Many of the corruptions and discrepencies you referred to were discussed in our theology and Bible classes.  The professors didn't gloss over them, they admitted they were there and tried to give their reasoning as to how they could be explained."

Bh:  That is good.  At least the professors at your Bible college did not try ot cover them up.  What kind of discrepancies did you discuss?

I went to a website one time that purported to have 600 so called Biblical discrepencies, most of them could be explained very easily, although some of them, I admit, could not.  What do I do with the ones that cannot be explained?  Continue to study.  Continue to dig.  Why?  Because I have faith that God's word is true.

BH:  What kind of discrepancies did you see there?[/quote]
Many of the discrepancies were discrepencies in textual variants in different manuscripts families.  I would have to get my notes from the classes out to refresh myself on them, because it was quite a while ago.

Other discrepencies included things like some scholars believing certain sections of scripture were included in the original manuscripts, while other scholars did not.  (Passages like Romans 16, John 8:1-11, Mark 16:9-20, etc. came up here.)

As far as the website I went to, they were not discussing things like that.  They were talking about things like one gospel says there was one angel at the tomb, another says there were two.  So the Bible doesn't agree with itself.  No one knows if Quirinius was ever governor of Syria, because no extra biblical sources tell us he even existed - so that was suspect.

Are these the types of discrepencies you were referring to, or were you talking about something else?

Kevin

I hope that no one is going to use some personal hurt I felt in the past to explain away why I am an atheist.  Many of us are told such as that and we find it very personally insulting.
It is not true, and the people who make that charge use it because they cannot win an argument against non-belief.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (spurly @ Dec. 18 2002,10:06)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][/quote]
"I don't think you can ascribe prophecy to demonic spirits or the devil himself.  Here's why.  Unlike God, these beings are created beings.  So, unlike God, they are locked into time and space.  They don't sit outside of time, they are involved in literal time and space.  So they can't forsee the future and tell it like God can.  Just my personal opinion."

BH:  I have snipped most of your post containing the above dealing with discussions over different theories of textual formation.  The discussions you appeared to have in class were not the kind I had in mind dealing with the manuscript variants spoken of earlier.  If you disagree feel free to bring a specific point to my attention.

Now to the qoute above.  The devil is supposedly a wiley and slick fellow.  I have already given you a passage where a girl prophesied the future in acts via a devil.  However, let us say I am wrong on that.  Let us say the Bible teaches that the demons and devils cannot do such as the above. The devils do tempt people do they not?  We have different manuscript variants which are no doubt willful additions or subtractions.  How do you know that devils (who might have tempted men to add to the Bible) made sure that the Bible gave you the impression they could not predict the future and inspire people to decive you.  They just made  sure the Bible was corrupted to make you think they could not do the things you think they cannot do.  After all, God did allow his text to become corrupt, so you cannot assume just what God would also allow to be done or not done regarding demons and the text.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][/quote]
If his standards are not going to make things better for us, why follow them.  I think you know very well what I am alluding to here.[/quote]


""I am not sure what you are alluding to in your last sentence in the quote.  Please explain a little more.""

BH: Following the supposed rules laid down by God do not end our problems.  Often times those who disobey them prosper at their "disobedience", and often times trying to obey "God's" laws is what lead people down the road to poverty and redundancy.  Also, much of "God's" law is nebulous and unclear regarding right and wrong in given situations. I'll go in more detail later if you wish.


""I think his standards make life much better here.  If we followed his standards and the people we interact with follow his standards, they would protect his from emotional scars, guilt, pain of separation for children whose parents divorce, many diseases brought on by immoral lifestyles, and much more.

Not only that, following his standards provides joy, hope, peace, contentment, and many other blessings.  Indeed those who follow him are blessed in this life many times over.""

BH:  These rules may give some guideance to people, but often times they are nebulous in given situations and fail to solve our problems over all. Some of the laws of God are downright bad in my opinion and have caused lots of harm and suffering.  This is to me a sign that these rules are manmade, though attributed to God to get people to want to obey them.

B.H.,

Why would God play that game with us anyway? :saint:

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Here are my thoughts.

If a god did exist, and the primary reason he created the universe was to have a relationship with people whom he loved, he would want those people to have a choice.  He would want them to be able to choose to love him or to choose not to love him.  (I know Calvinists don't believe in free will, but I don't want to go there right now.  That is another subject for another time.  Back to the topic at hand).

If God wanted us to choose to love him, then what you described above would really negate any choice.  Everybody would choose to have a relationship with him, and many people would choose to have that relationship for the wrong reasons.  Either they would choose to have a relationship out of fear of being destroyed, or cursed, in this life (with disease, depression, poverty, pain, etc.), or they would choose to follow him for the blessings that they could get out of it.  Like God was some big politician doling out goodies to his cronies.

But God wants us to choose to have a relationship with him for altogether different reasons.  He wants us to choose to have a relationship with him because we love him.  Plain and simple.

The requirement you are putting on god to prove that he exists would negate that for many people.

Kevin[/quote]
God could have created us where we would have no problems yet still have the ability to choose to love him sincerely or not.  This may seem logically impossible, but remember he supposedly created logic.  He could have created logic where it would entail the above. So, you get the best of both worlds:  we have no problems yet we still can sincerely choose to love God or not.

I do not mean to be disrespectful, but I think the argument you used above is just a rationalization of how the world is today.  You (generic you) cannot change how the world is so you invent the idea of "free will" to rationalize away the idea of God when faced with the problems we suffer from.  I am not saying you (spurly) willfully are trying to do that, but that your predeccessors in ministry have done so and passed the fallacy down to you.

BH,

I am really enjoying this conversation.  But I have a question for you.

It seems the onus is always put on people who believe in a god to prove that their god exists, whether that God be Jehovah, Allah, or Zeus.  

But my question is this.  What if the shoe were on the other foot.  What if someone asked you to prove that a god did not exist?  How would you respond.

Kevin

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]He already said elsewhere that he cannot prove God does not exist.

Can one prove a negative?

What is this thing you have about "winning" and "being right", BH?

Oh, I forgot.  You're Church of Christ, born/bred/blood/bone.[/quote]
I do remember him saying that.  But I was just wanting to see what his response would be to that question.

Janine, your comment about church of Christ always wanting to be right, to win, was funny in a sad sort of way.   :doh:

Kevin[/quote]
There is an adage old timers in the Church of Christ say:
"You can bring down a Church of Christer, but it takes another Church of Christer to do it." ;)

I must confess you are being very gentlemanly in this discussion Kevin, and not letting emotion get in the way of critical thinking.  Not to bad for a "Christian Church brother" who uses those evil instruments in worship. :p

Folks, don't go tell Barry Davis I said that or he'll get the big head! :0  :p He knows I am just kidding!

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Guest @ Dec. 21 2002,01:40)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]:p My opinion is that faith is where the rubber meets the road.The bible is clear that we believe by faith.We are christians because we choose to believe and atheist choose not to believe.No need to prove either side.

However,we come to these forums for encouragement to our faith,that's what church is all about.I don't believe that atheism and Christianity  belong together on a forum.Kindness,good manners,and love can prevail on both sides and that's good,but belief and unbelief are not compatable.

When we have some who pledge allegiance to the bible and some who deny Gen1:1,there is no room for compatability.

Just my thoughts on a very early morning.God bless,Charles[/quote]
I was wondering where you have been old friend.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Guest @ Dec. 21 2002,7:25)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]We all like BH,he's fine.It's just his belief system is inappropriate for a christian forum. The heart of an atheist is not the same as the heart of a Christian.Jesus is Lord to one and to the other he is nothing.BH is honest with his feelings and I care for him as a person but his belief system is not in fellowship with our community.

Just my opinion.

God bless,Charles :D[/quote]
"""""""""""I just don't believe that someone who doesn't believe the bible should be discussing it with believers.Why?entertainment...or a game..or what.""""""""""""""&
quot;"""'''

BH:  I like the intellectual exercise.


"""""""""""""""
We all like BH,he's fine.It's just his belief system is inappropriate for a christian forum. The heart of an atheist is not the same as the heart of a Christian.Jesus is Lord to one and to the other he is nothing.BH is honest with his feelings and I care for him as a person but his belief system is not in fellowship with our community.""""""""""""'

BH:  I must be blunt here.  A lot of you people here believe one must be baptized for the forgiveness of sin and to get in Christ to be a real Christian, yet many here have not/will not do that.  Should they be banned--their not in fellowship with you either?

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (B. H. @ Dec. 21 2002,00:05)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][/quote]
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]BH said:  BH Said:  You problem goes way beyond what  erroneous ideas Christians may have had individually in the past.  Your problem is that YOUR TEXT is erroneous due to the fact it has been added to and taken away from throughout the past due to man (or devils :p)  the problem, spurly, if I may be so bold, is not your lack of understanding of the will of "god", but the lack of understanding that the very foundation of your faith is corrupt--the Bible. You are locked in a certain mindset regarding the Bible and cannot break free from it.  If you could do so, and I think with more study you will, the fallacies I see in religion will become more apparent and clear to you.[/quote]

BH, It looks like that is one of the finer points of our discussion.  Is what we have as the word of God really the word of God.  I would love to refute you about the Bible being corrupt, (I have studied this before and come to the opposite conclusion) but my apologetics are a little rusty.  When one is stuck in the culture of the church, not many opportunities come up to discuss topics like this with people on the other side.  So here's what I am going to do after the first of the year.  I am going to buy a couple of books, one from both sides of the debate.  (I don't want to be accused of only reading the Christian viewpoint).  And I am going to go back again and study the reliability of God's word.  It'll be a refresher course I will love taking.  What book would you suggest I get from the viewpoint that the Bible is hogwash?

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Kevin said:  The argument I used above may be based on how the world is today.  However, the world may be that way, because that's the way that it was designed by God.  Which, again is a circular argument.  I keep hitting myself coming and going  :doh:

BH said: Maybe.  Prove it.
[/quote]

In time I hope to be able to do that.  Maybe not 100%, but at least beyond a reasonable doubt.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Kevin said: So I guess it comes down to faith, and which "theory" makes the most sense?  And that is something we have to determine based on our view of the evidence."""""


BH said:  But everyone examines the evidence and come to different conclusions.  Some see no God, some see Jehovah, some see Allah, some the "deist" god, ect.
[/quote]

Yes, that is true.  Many people come to many different conclusions.  Is that because people are all starting their study with different pre-concieved notions?  Is it because different people's study's are tilted in different directions?  Is it because some people are deluded into believing a lie? (You probably know 2 Cor 4:4 so I won't quote it here).  Or is it because a conclusion is impossible to arrive at?  

I think any real search for truth will eventually wind up at the throne of the God of the Bible.  

Kevin

My only comment would be that I don't see the forum being dominated by discussions about atheism.  We have a couple of topics here and there, but for the most part (If I hadn't just read the Santa Claus thread I wouldn't have had to qualify that) BH doesn't inject the atheistic viewpoint into other discussions.  If he did, I would agree; that is the problem I have seen on other boards  (a discussion on baptism goes nowhere, for instance, because a poster keeps interrupting with "none of this matters, the Bible's not true").  But generally he doesn't disrupt other topics and keeps his (supposedly) atheistic viewpoints limited to a few threads on that topic.

B.H.

Thanks for sharing part of yourself and your journey with the rest of us on the message board.

My hope is that those in charge won't kick you off of this board just because you have a different theological bent (or no theological bent at all).  I hope they will allow you to stay for at least these three reasons.  First, you will challenge us to really examine why we believe what we believe.  And second, I don't think Jesus would ever say, "You don't believe like I do, then I won't let you talk to me."  And third, maybe, just maybe, if you hang out with people who are infected with the virus of God's grace, you will come back to faith in him.

In August, I had a student come up to me and make this statement, "I don't believe that God is who we think he is".  She has begun a journey looking for the real God.  I say that to say this, have you ever considered the option that God does exist, but he is not the God that you grew up hearing about in legalistic churches?  

I had to deal with this a lot after I graduated from Bible College.  Someone who graduated from another Bible College once told me that it took him ten years to unlearn what he learned in Bible College so that he could embrace God for who he really was.  The God my professors taught me about in Bible College was much more legalistic than the God I now serve on a daily basis.  I had to take time to unlearn the legalism of that God, and learn about a God whose main desire was to have a relationship with us.  A God who is motivated by love, mercy, grace, and justice and not a desire to keep all his creatures in line.

So maybe, just maybe, God does exist, but he's not at all what you thought he was.  I will probably still have to go through some unlearning.  As a matter of fact, that unlearning will probably not be complete until I see God in all his glory.  Only then will I truly understand who God really is.

Kevin

btw, there are a few Cthlthu cults in this part of the country because of the existence of the actual entrances to the underground lairs not far away.   :alien:

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (marc @ Dec. 17 2002,1:34)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I guess what confuses me about all of this is that you seem to have bought into what is to me the least compelling aspect of Athiesm--the utter dependence on the wisdom of man.  As I've written before I'm much too aware of my own failings to hold myself up as a standard for anything.[/quote]
Look at it from my perspective:  Religion IS just the wisdom of man being paraded around as the wisdom of a deity.

I did want to mention that I have found a Foy Wallace book of sermons in my personal library.  I have heard of the name and I cringe to hear him cited in anything.  One thing I believe which I disagree with BH on is the heart of the preachers.  I did not know Mr Wallace but I know many CofC preachers (myself included) and this is not a fair representation.

"BH:  This was a joke against CoC preachers.  I think most of them are dishonest worthless men."


Notice that I said "most" not all.  Dallas Burdette is a CoC preacher and I think he is honest.  From what I can tell from your posts you are honest too.

If you want specific examples of CoC preachers being "sons of Belial" let me know and I will give you some.   :0

As for me I am not charismatic. :clap:

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (B. H. @ Dec. 18 2002,2:44)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Spurly said:  2- If there is a god, and that god chooses to reveal himself to us, he would do it ways we could understand.  He did that all through Scripture, and he always kept Scripture consistant so as not to confuse us."

BH:  God is supposedly omnipotent so he should have no trouble providing us with an incorrupted text, show us a absolute moral standard seperate and apart from himself so as to know we are not being deceived by men or devils in "the name of God."


"You said: [!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Any inspired texts would have to be free from corruptions and not rely on "how-it-could-have-been-scenarios" to explain away contradictions.[/quote]

I don't know exactly what you mean by "how it could have been" scenarios.  However, if you look at the Scripture down through the ages, what we have now, is pretty consistent with the earliest texts that have been found.  I know there are thorny questions like, how did Mark 16:9-20 get in there?  What happened to the other letters Paul wrote to Corinth?  Etc.  But by and large, we have a copy that is very close to the original.  The mistakes that are in the text can easily be accounted for by copyist errors or errors in translation.  How do you think God could keep his word pure in a fallen world with other forces trying to corrupt it?  If you were God, what would you have done differently (not trying to be facetious)."

BH:  A "how-it-could-have-been-scenario" is a theory developed to explain away contradictions in the Bible.  For example, the "scribal error" defense is such a one.  You do not know that a contradiction was caused by scribal error, you just assume it to be so.  There are other examples I could cite but will pass that on for later.

Again you bring up the quality of the biblical manuscripts as proof of God. You just assume what we have now is very close to the original. A lot of things can happen to a book over time. Let me pm you the examples I mentioned above and we can come back to this later.

One thing I will say now is that an all powerful God, if he exists, could have kept his written word safe somehow someway.  The fact he has not makes the Bible no different from other holy books in that regard.[/quote]
You're right.  If an ominipotent God wanted to provide us with an incorrupted text, he could lead archeologists to uncover one tomorrow.

But even if he did that, we would have to scrutinize it to see if it truly is authentic.  That would involve everything that is currently done in the study of biblical manuscripts.  How would we know those studies were true?  We would have to at some point take a step of faith to believe?  Eventually, accepting God's words as God's words will always come down to that.

I believe that God gave us minds, and he wants us to use them to figure out why the contradictions in the text exist.  There are answers out there.

By the way, again I ask if God created the world and he is the absolute moral standard, and the universe is an extension of himself, how could an absolute moral standard that was separate from his exist?  ???  It couldn't, because he would be the absolute standard.

Kevin

"If an ominipotent God wanted to provide us with an incorrupted text, he could lead archeologists to uncover one tomorrow.

But even if he did that, we would have to scrutinize it to see if it truly is authentic.  That would involve everything that is currently done in the study of biblical manuscripts.  How would we know those studies were true?  We would have to at some point take a step of faith to believe?  Eventually, accepting God's words as God's words will always come down to that."

BH;  That is the point.  I don't think you will ever be able to prove a manuscript the "original".  You can take a step of faith, but make sure you are not being led by the hand of the devil.

"I believe that God gave us minds, and he wants us to use them to figure out why the contradictions in the text exist.  There are answers out there."

BH:  I have a reasonable answer why contradictions are in the Bible.  It was written by men who had different ideas on certain things.

"By the way, again I ask if God created the world and he is the absolute moral standard, and the universe is an extension of himself, how could an absolute moral standard that was separate from his exist?  ???  It couldn't, because he would be the absolute standard."

BH: I think that an absolute standard can exist regardless of whether a god exists.  You are still in your quandry whether or not you have been deceived by Satan or just plain old con artists.

Two plus two equals four regardless of whether god exists or what he says on the matter.  If you disagree, show me how two plus two could logically come out anything other than four.

"Here's another question I have for you.  You mentioned a couple of times that we needed to be able to compare Scripture to an absolute moral standard that exists seperate and apart from God.  If this world was created by a God, doesn't it make sense that the absolute moral standard that exists in our world could not be seperated from the one who created it?  I know that sounds like a circular argument, but I think it is true.  What holes do you see in it?"


BH: One must exist, or else you can never know you have been deceived by Bible corruptions.


""If there were an absolute moral standard that existed apart from God and God was judged by that standard, wouldn't it make that absolute moral standard God as it places the standard above God himself.  You said that this absolute standard would not detract from God's omnipotence, but I don't see how that can be the case.""

BH:  God being wise, would realize the importance of having a standard seperate from himself so we can know whether we have been deceived by men or devils.  He would not oppose the standard apart from himself seeing how we are in the predicament we are in.  Even though whatever absolute standard exists exists seperate from his person, God ,being wise would realize the standard as best and would have adopted it on his own anyway.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Here are my thoughts.

If a god did exist, and the primary reason he created the universe was to have a relationship with people whom he loved, he would want those people to have a choice.  He would want them to be able to choose to love him or to choose not to love him.  (I know Calvinists don't believe in free will, but I don't want to go there right now.  That is another subject for another time.  Back to the topic at hand).

If God wanted us to choose to love him, then what you described above would really negate any choice.  Everybody would choose to have a relationship with him, and many people would choose to have that relationship for the wrong reasons.  Either they would choose to have a relationship out of fear of being destroyed, or cursed, in this life (with disease, depression, poverty, pain, etc.), or they would choose to follow him for the blessings that they could get out of it.  Like God was some big politician doling out goodies to his cronies.

But God wants us to choose to have a relationship with him for altogether different reasons.  He wants us to choose to have a relationship with him because we love him.  Plain and simple.

The requirement you are putting on god to prove that he exists would negate that for many people.

Kevin[/quote]
God could have created us where we would have no problems yet still have the ability to choose to love him sincerely or not.  This may seem logically impossible, but remember he supposedly created logic.  He could have created logic where it would entail the above. So, you get the best of both worlds:  we have no problems yet we still can sincerely choose to love God or not.

I do not mean to be disrespectful, but I think the argument you used above is just a rationalization of how the world is today.  You (generic you) cannot change how the world is so you invent the idea of "free will" to rationalize away the idea of God when faced with the problems we suffer from.  I am not saying you (spurly) willfully are trying to do that, but that your predeccessors in ministry have done so and passed the fallacy down to you.[/quote]
I will try to tread the waters without being pulled under by the currents.

I will readily admit that through the ages some things have been taught by Christians that did not come from God.  And those teachings had devastating effects.  I hope and pray that I do not do that, but because my mind can not get a full grasp on the infinite mind of God, I am sure I do it unknowingly at times.  I just hope the effects aren't devastating.

I can see that God could have created a world the way you mentioned above, if he chose to.  But what you described is sort of like a parent saying, you can choose to love me, or walk away from me, you can choose to respect me or disrespect me, and whatever you choose there are no consequences for your action.  Any parent knows that to raise a child like that is not really raising them in love at all.

The argument I used above may be based on how the world is today.  However, the world may be that way, because that's the way that it was designed by God.  Which, again is a circular argument.  I keep hitting myself coming and going  :doh: .

I guess what it comes down to more than anything else is this.  I cannot prove beyond a shadow of doubt that God exists.  I can tell you about answered prayer, prophecies that came true, intelligent design in the universe and other arguments from creation, archeological evidence, etc.  But in the end there are refutations for most of that from rational people on the other side of the fence.  (Yes I believe that many atheists and agnostics are rational, even when they deny the existence of God.  Sometimes they are too rational for their own good :crackup: )

And on the other side, you can not prove that God does not exist.  

So I guess it comes down to faith, and which "theory" makes the most sense?  And that is something we have to determine based on our view of the evidence.

I am also trying to figure out why bringing up the whole free will/calvinism debate is like taking a manhole cover off of an abyss that I could fall into.  

The only thing I can come up with is trying to balance the sovereignty of God, with the free will of man.  Is that what you were referring to?

Kevin

"There is room for everyone here.  Christian conservatives, Christian moderates, Christian liberals, and ex-Christians turned atheists.  Everyone has a stake in the discussion."
Kevin

You may be right, but if so then the purpose and description of the forum should be changed to reflect that purpose. The purpose of GCM forum in that case is not to "edify" or build up the faith of one "escaping legalism to accept grace" as the name implies, but rather it is an apologetics forum that fosters arguments to prove or disprove the existence of God.  Weak Christians tend to fall by the wayside when the latter is the case even though the faith of "strong" Christians may be made stronger by such discussions.  Which is better...to defend the existence of God against atheism or to encourage those who already have faith?  It all depends on the purpose of the forum. And, no, I do not believe there is room for both on a regular basis.  A good way to measure the effectiveness of either approach is to look at the members who used to post, but no longer do.  Has the forum lost members who used to post regularly?  If so, there is a reason; something about the forum has ceased to maintain their interest.  Also, look at the growth of new members.  Are members joining and staying on a regular basis?  Is keeping discussions about atheism worth losing potential members who might otherwise find a place to strengthen their faith here?  Maybe, I don't know the answer to that.  Personally, I do not care one way or the other, but a forum should have a specific goal in mind. I agree with Charles.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Guest @ Dec. 21 2002,08:52)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]"There is room for everyone here.  Christian conservatives, Christian moderates, Christian liberals, and ex-Christians turned atheists.  Everyone has a stake in the discussion."
Kevin

You may be right, but if so then the purpose and description of the forum should be changed to reflect that purpose. The purpose of GCM forum in that case is not to "edify" or build up the faith of one "escaping legalism to accept grace" as the name implies, but rather it is an apologetics forum that fosters arguments to prove or disprove the existence of God.  Weak Christians tend to fall by the wayside when the latter is the case even though the faith of "strong" Christians may be made stronger by such discussions.  Which is better...to defend the existence of God against atheism or to encourage those who already have faith?  It all depends on the purpose of the forum. And, no, I do not believe there is room for both on a regular basis.  A good way to measure the effectiveness of either approach is to look at the members who used to post, but no longer do.  Has the forum lost members who used to post regularly?  If so, there is a reason; something about the forum has ceased to maintain their interest.  Also, look at the growth of new members.  Are members joining and staying on a regular basis?  Is keeping discussions about atheism worth losing potential members who might otherwise find a place to strengthen their faith here?  Maybe, I don't know the answer to that.  Personally, I do not care one way or the other, but a forum should have a specific goal in mind. I agree with Charles.[/quote]
One thing I find interesting is that by the post you made above, you seem to be someone who has been around this forum a long time.  Yet, you have chosen to remain anonymous in this post and just have "guest" show up next to your name.  

I was just curious as to why.

Kevin

Those are all good questions Kevin, but you need to go study somemore and see. ;)