The traditional meaning of gluttony is overeating. Where in Scripture is overeating forbidden? And what does God mean by overeating?
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 10:33:40
The traditional meaning of gluttony is overeating. Where in Scripture is overeating forbidden? And what does God mean by overeating?
I'm short on time, but the body is the temple of the Lord. Over-eating is abuse of the temple. By necessary inference anyway.
In my pea-brain, overeating is consuming way more than your body needs to maintain itself.
BtW, being obese is not necessarily a result of over-eating.
Now you've quit preaching and gone to meddlin'.
C.
: Jaime Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 10:51:59
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 10:33:40
The traditional meaning of gluttony is overeating. Where in Scripture is overeating forbidden? And what does God mean by overeating?
I'm short on time, but the body is the temple of the Lord. Over-eating is abuse of the temple. By necessary inference anyway.
This seems to be long on common sense but short on Scripture. I would make the argument that putting anything ahead of God is idolatry, so in that sense (relying on food to meet needs instead of God), gluttony could be a form of idolatry. For example, going to Häagen-Dazs when you are lonely or heart broken would be gluttony, using this definition.
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 10:59:24
: Jaime Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 10:51:59
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 10:33:40
The traditional meaning of gluttony is overeating. Where in Scripture is overeating forbidden? And what does God mean by overeating?
I'm short on time, but the body is the temple of the Lord. Over-eating is abuse of the temple. By necessary inference anyway.
This seems to be long on common sense but short on Scripture. I would make the argument that putting anything ahead of God is idolatry, so in that sense (relying on food to meet needs instead of God), gluttony could be a form of idolatry. For example, going to Häagen-Dazs when you are lonely or heart broken would be gluttony, using this definition.
I think that definition is flawed. God gave us food to enjoy as well as to nourish our bodies. Being comforted by food is not necessarily anymore wrong than being comforted by doing any activity that brings you joy when you are feeling blue. Replacing God with food is another matter altogether.
C.
Food is no more a sin than good wine. However the abuse of both is. (or is that both are?) and equally so, by necessary inference of course.
Most every elder and deacon selection questionaire have a question about alcohol use. My opinion equal time should be given to the abuse of food on the questionaires.
To me there is nothing more hypocritical than to see an overweight preacher with a 55 inch waist railing away from the pulpit on the evils of alcohol.
Being over weight can cause major health issues.
FTL
There's not much in the Bible and I wondered how Gluttony got on the list of the 7 deadly sins.
The 7 Deadly Sins: I found this information on deadlysins.com:
According to Sacred Origins of Profound Things, by Charles Panati, Greek monastic theologian Evagrius of Pontus first drew up a list of eight offenses and wicked human passions:. They were, in order of increasing seriousness: gluttony, lust, avarice, sadness, anger, acedia, vainglory, and pride. Evagrius saw the escalating severity as representing increasing fixation with the self, with pride as the most egregious of the sins. Acedia (from the Greek "akedia," or "not to care") denoted "spiritual sloth."
In the late 6th century, Pope Gregory the Great reduced the list to seven items, folding vainglory into pride, acedia into sadness, and adding envy. His ranking of the Sins' seriousness was based on the degree from which they offended against love. It was, from most serious to least: pride, envy, anger, sadness, avarice, gluttony, and lust. Later theologians, including St. Thomas Aquinas, would contradict the notion that the seriousness of the sins could be ranked in this way. The term "covetousness" has historically been used interchangeably with "avarice" in accounts of the Deadly Sins. In the seventeenth century, the Church replaced the vague sin of "sadness" with sloth.
I found this information on bible-topics.com:
Gluttony
Christ was falsely accused of.
Matthew 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
The wicked addicted to.
Philippians 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
Jude 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
LEADS TO
Carnal security.
Isaiah 22:13 And behold joy and gladness, slaying oxen, and killing sheep, eating flesh, and drinking wine: let us eat and drink; for to morrow we shall die.
1 Corinthians 15:32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
Luke 12:19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.
Poverty.
Proverbs 23:21 For the drunkard and the glutton shall come to poverty: and drowsiness shall clothe a man with rags.
Of princes, ruinous to their people.
Ecclesiastes 10:16-17 Woe to thee, O land, when thy king is a child, and thy princes eat in the morning! Blessed art thou, O land, when thy king is the son of nobles, and thy princes eat in due season, for strength, and not for drunkenness!
Is inconsistent in saints.
1 Peter 4:3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
Caution against.
Proverbs 23:2-3 And put a knife to thy throat, if thou be a man given to appetite. Be not desirous of his dainties: for they are deceitful meat.
Pray against temptations to.
Psalms 141:4 Incline not my heart to any evil thing, to practise wicked works with men that work iniquity: and let me not eat of their dainties.
Punishment of.
Numbers 11:33-34 And while the flesh was yet between their teeth, ere it was chewed, the wrath of the LORD was kindled against the people, and the LORD smote the people with a very great plague. And he called the name of that place Kibrothhattaavah: because there they buried the people that lusted.
Danger of, illustrated.
Luke 12:45-46 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
Exemplified.
Esau,
Genesis 25:30-34 And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red pottage; for I am faint: therefore was his name called Edom. And Jacob said, Sell me this day thy birthright. And Esau said, Behold, I am at the point to die: and what profit shall this birthright do to me? And Jacob said, Swear to me this day; and he sware unto him: and he sold his birthright unto Jacob. Then Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentiles; and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way: thus Esau despised his birthright. ...
Hebrews 12:16-17 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
Israel,
Numbers 11:4 And the mixt multitude that was among them fell a lusting: and the children of Israel also wept again, and said, Who shall give us flesh to eat?
Psalms 78:18 And they tempted God in their heart by asking meat for their lust.
Sons of Eli,
1 Samuel 2:12-17 Now the sons of Eli were sons of Belial; they knew not the LORD. And the priests' custom with the people was, that, when any man offered sacrifice, the priest's servant came, while the flesh was in seething, with a fleshhook of three teeth in his hand; And he struck it into the pan, or kettle, or caldron, or pot; all that the fleshhook brought up the priest took for himself. So they did in Shiloh unto all the Israelites that came thither. Also before they burnt the fat, the priest's servant came, and said to the man that sacrificed, Give flesh to roast for the priest; for he will not have sodden flesh of thee, but raw. And if any man said unto him, Let them not fail to burn the fat presently, and then take as much as thy soul desireth; then he would answer him, Nay; but thou shalt give it me now: and if not, I will take it by force. ...
Belshazzar,
Daniel 5:1 Belshazzar the king made a great feast to a thousand of his lords, and drank wine before the thousand.
Nice call Brian. I guess I have always assumed it was well documented in the Bible, but obviously not.
jq
Good post.
Nice research.
C.
: Jaime Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 11:31:39
Food is no more a sin than good wine. However the abuse of both is. (or is that both are?) and equally so, by necessary inference of course.
Most every elder and deacon selection questionaire have a question about alcohol use. My opinion equal time should be given to the abuse of food on the questionaires.
To me there is nothing more hypocritical than to see an overweight preacher with a 55 inch waist railing away from the pulpit on the evils of alcohol.
Jamie,
I can't find any Scripture which condemns 55 inch waistlines.
: Chrestian Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 11:05:04
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 10:59:24
: Jaime Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 10:51:59
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 10:33:40
The traditional meaning of gluttony is overeating. Where in Scripture is overeating forbidden? And what does God mean by overeating?
I'm short on time, but the body is the temple of the Lord. Over-eating is abuse of the temple. By necessary inference anyway.
This seems to be long on common sense but short on Scripture. I would make the argument that putting anything ahead of God is idolatry, so in that sense (relying on food to meet needs instead of God), gluttony could be a form of idolatry. For example, going to Häagen-Dazs when you are lonely or heart broken would be gluttony, using this definition.
I think that definition is flawed. God gave us food to enjoy as well as to nourish our bodies. Being comforted by food is not necessarily anymore wrong than being comforted by doing any activity that brings you joy when you are feeling blue. Replacing God with food is another matter altogether.
C.
When you turn to Häagen-Dazs instead of the Lord, I think you are replacing God with food. There is another way that we could define gluttony, as well: hoarding food (not necessarily eating lots of it) to be self-sufficient and live at ease, instead of sharing the food that God has given to you in abundance with those who have nothing to eat.
Also, Eze 16:49 - "Sodom's sins were pride, laziness, and gluttony, while the poor and needy suffered outside her door."
The reason it was a sin was that it was self-centered and neglected the needs of others.
I believe gluttony most definitely falls under the category of "idol", which, IMO, is much, much broader than the graven image, but anything that is more important than God or following His will.
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 12:29:35
: Jaime Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 11:31:39
Food is no more a sin than good wine. However the abuse of both is. (or is that both are?) and equally so, by necessary inference of course.
Most every elder and deacon selection questionaire have a question about alcohol use. My opinion equal time should be given to the abuse of food on the questionaires.
To me there is nothing more hypocritical than to see an overweight preacher with a 55 inch waist railing away from the pulpit on the evils of alcohol.
Jamie,
I can't find any Scripture which condemns 55 inch waistlines.
There isn't any! My point was he would have no place to condemn a sin that is at least as bad as the sin of gluttony (eating more than your body needs for whatever reason.) A sin I openly admit to, and constantly try to repent of.
I'm not following you. What sin would that be?
If
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 13:17:41
I'm not following you. What sin would that be?
If a preacher who has a problem with gluttony gets up and rails righteously against the sin of alcohol then his credibility would suffer is all i'm saying. We just need to call sin what it is and not ignore the ones that we are guilty of in order to gore someone elses ox.
Jamie,
You are apparently equating having a 55 inch waistline with the sin of gluttony. I don't see that equation in Scripture.
Excellent post!!!
i gained 45 pounds as a result of a drug i started taking in '99....
i'm not obese but need to lose that 45 pounds....i was pretty thin before...
now, that could be a different case, but i don't think so....
still, that 45 pounds is unhealthy for me....
thanks for the post: i have a new perspective and will try to lose a few...!!
Jesus couldn't have been obese..... it would have been a matter that his disciples could have scoffed at or straightened him out on the matter.... he wouldn't have been perfect then.....
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 13:22:00
Jamie,
You are apparently equating having a 55 inch waistline with the sin of gluttony. I don't see that equation in Scripture.
Sorry Brian, I am not trying to make this difficult. My hypothetical example of a 55 inch waistline is irrevelant to anything. Again, the point is it doesn' t make sense to get in the pulpit and pick on other peoples splinters in their eyes, when one has an obvious oak beam in his eye or under his belt. ::smile::
PS on a previous post I said
not all fat people are gluttons, but it is a good indication. I am fat, and I am a glutton. I have a 42 inch waste and I deal with the sin of overeating. I am 70 to 100 pounds overweight depending on which doctor you talk to. MY sin is gluttony, a person with a 60 inch waste may not be a glutton.
What oak beam under his belt are you referring to? It would help if you would name the sin that you are referring to.
Brian I am talking about the sin of gluttony vs the sin of alcohol (or the abuse thereof). If that don't get it for you, I can't help you.
Obviously oak beam refers to his gluttony. (again a hypothetical example, please remember)
Jamie,
Why do you believe that the preacher with the 55 inch waist is guilty of glutony?
Brian.
That was a given example and did not mean it was set in stone but as for an example it was used to compair a view. Why do you always make everything into an argument?
bvaug,
Here is how I understand the example that Jamie is providing:
The preacher had a 55inch waist. He was clearly overeating. Overeating is the sin of gluttony, so the preacher is guilty of the sin of gluttony.
The reason that I started this thread was to think about whether or not the sin of gluttony is simply overeating. So I'm asking questions that I hope will lead to that discussion.
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 13:32:43
Jamie,
Why do you believe that the preacher with the 55 inch waist is guilty of glutony?
He doesn't exist Brian. I was making a point. I have seen examples of this in real life. I know a huge man who believes he is pure as the driven snow because he doesn't drink alcohol, but he has no qualms about sitting down and gorging himself at a church dinner until he practically passes out, and is comfortable with his righteous view of himself. I simply believe in this particular real life case (no more hypotheticals) this man is deluding himself.
I struggle with his sin of overeating, no doubt. I just don't pretend that abusing alcohol is somehow worse. Both are equal.
Jamie,
Did you read my post to bvaug?
: bvaug Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 13:35:52
Why do you always make everything into an argument?
BTW, it is a selection effect. When I agree with someone, I usually post something like ::amen::. There isn't a need for me to make extended comments when I agree with them.
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 13:41:33
Jamie,
Did you read my post to bvaug?
I did after I posted.
Maybe this will clarify my position:
IMO, all overeating is gluttony, but not all gluttony is due to overeating. A person can be a sex glutton I guess. Someone might be a shopping glutton, someone might be a glutton for punishment..............no, nevermind. That's what my mother used to say about me.
::smile::
Sorry for being snippy before!
Jaime
PS, and for God's sake everyone please note that I am not saying that all obesity is due to gluttony.
Jamie,
No problem. I've been snippy before, too.
Is it just your opinion that overeating is gluttony?
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 14:14:16
Jamie,
No problem. I've been snippy before, too.
Is it just your opinion that overeating is gluttony?
Is it your opinion that overeating is not gluttony? If it's not gluttony, what is it?
Jamie,
I've given a couple of different ideas of what gluttony can be in this thread: a special case of idolatry and a special case of greed.
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 14:25:27
Jamie,
I've given a couple of different ideas of what gluttony can be in this thread: a special case of idolatry and a special case of greed.
Exactly, those are the 2 main reasons for overeating I would say.
So overeating is not a sin in your opinion?
If it is not a sin, would you agree that it is at least a bad idea, and a possible stumbling block for a weaker brother or sister?
: Jaime Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 10:51:59
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 10:33:40
The traditional meaning of gluttony is overeating. Where in Scripture is overeating forbidden? And what does God mean by overeating?
I'm short on time, but the body is the temple of the Lord. Over-eating is abuse of the temple. By necessary inference anyway.
In my pea-brain, overeating is consuming way more than your body needs to maintain itself.
BtW, being obese is not necessarily a result of over-eating.
Now you done gone and hit my soapbox button, Jaime. Read 1st Cor. 6 and tell me why you think it applies and makes overeating is sexual sin.
: Jaime Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 14:32:03
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 14:25:27
Jamie,
I've given a couple of different ideas of what gluttony can be in this thread: a special case of idolatry and a special case of greed.
Exactly, those are the 2 main reasons for overeating I would say.
So overeating is not a sin in your opinion?
If it is not a sin, would you agree that it is at least a bad idea, and a possible stumbling block for a weaker brother or sister?
Jamie,
Those are not the only reasons why someone might overeat. For example, someone might overeat because they still feel physical hunger after they have already consumed what their body requires.
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 14:34:58
: Jaime Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 14:32:03
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 14:25:27
Jamie,
I've given a couple of different ideas of what gluttony can be in this thread: a special case of idolatry and a special case of greed.
Exactly, those are the 2 main reasons for overeating I would say.
So overeating is not a sin in your opinion?
If it is not a sin, would you agree that it is at least a bad idea, and a possible stumbling block for a weaker brother or sister?
Jamie,
Those are not the only reasons why someone might overeat. For example, someone might overeat because they still feel physical hunger after they have already consumed what their body requires.
There are many reasons. However, if you take away exceptions, and focus on the marority:
Most of us Americans just eat too much.
Yup. That I'll agree with. And you didn't even have to stretch Scripture to say it.
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 13:22:00
Jamie,
You are apparently equating having a 55 inch waistline with the sin of gluttony. I don't see that equation in Scripture.
Fwiw, 90% of the people I've known I'd think may be gluttons are skinny as rails.
: Gary Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 14:36:37
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 14:34:58
: Jaime Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 14:32:03
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 14:25:27
Jamie,
I've given a couple of different ideas of what gluttony can be in this thread: a special case of idolatry and a special case of greed.
Exactly, those are the 2 main reasons for overeating I would say.
So overeating is not a sin in your opinion?
If it is not a sin, would you agree that it is at least a bad idea, and a possible stumbling block for a weaker brother or sister?
Jamie,
Those are not the only reasons why someone might overeat. For example, someone might overeat because they still feel physical hunger after they have already consumed what their body requires.
There are many reasons. However, if you take away exceptions, and focus on the marority:
Most of us Americans just eat too much.
There is no question that we eat too much. But I can't find any Scripture that teaches that overeating, all by itself, is a sin.
: jmg3rd Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 14:44:06
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 13:22:00
Jamie,
You are apparently equating having a 55 inch waistline with the sin of gluttony. I don't see that equation in Scripture.
I've not seen any relevant scripture presented yet.
That's the point. If we are going to call overeating a sin, we should have Scripture to back that claim up.
Hey now, I edited that out, because I realized I'd skipped a page before posting. I do think you'll find that 1) Scripture actually says next to nothing and most peoples' definitions are more cultural than scriptural (hence the weight definition instead of the greedy for food definition); and 2) the traditional view through the centuries is based more on statements in the Apocrypha (like statements in Sirach, for example) which, last I heard, you guys don't accept as Scripture.
I don't say that to defend overeating, or to offend those who've posted. It's just I always find it interesting how strong people's convictions are, and how they obviously then try to find prooftexts for it, even while decrying said practice in other threads simultaneously. Happens every time it comes up.
Though there's no scripture that specifically mentions gluttony as being sinful,...I guess there are a lot of other things we consider sinful with no specific verse attached(slavery and polygamy). I believe anything to excess can become an idol which we put, maybe not before God, but on the same plane. There are similar reasons for Drunkeness and Gluttony being considered sinful. And just think about this, they didn't even have driving under the influence as a consideration for why drunkeness was sinful. They probably didn't know it affected one's health at all, so health reasons were probably never factored into the reason drunkeness was sinful either.
jq
: jmg3rd Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 14:54:12
Hey now, I edited that out, because I realized I'd skipped a page before posting. I do think you'll find that 1) Scripture actually says next to nothing and most peoples' definitions are more cultural than scriptural (hence the weight definition instead of the greedy for food definition); and 2) the traditional view through the centuries is based more on statements in the Apocrypha (like statements in Sirach, for example) which, last I heard, you guys don't accept as Scripture.
I don't say that to defend overeating, or to offend those who've posted. It's just I always find it interesting how strong people's convictions are, and how they obviously then try to find prooftexts for it, even while decrying said practice in other threads simultaneously. Happens every time it comes up.
That's the way that I view the issue as well. It's not a faith issue, it's a cultural issue.
: johnnyQ Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 14:55:44
Though there's no scripture that specifically mentions gluttony as being sinful,...I guess there are a lot of other things we consider sinful with no specific verse attached(slavery and polygamy). I believe anything to excess can become an idol which we put, maybe not before God, but on the same plane. There are similar reasons for Drunkeness and Gluttony being considered sinful. And just think about this, they didn't even have driving under the influence as a consideration for why drunkeness was sinful. They probably didn't know it affected one's health at all, so health reasons were probably never factored into the reason drunkeness was sinful either.
jq
::amen::
: johnnyQ Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 14:55:44
Though there's no scripture that specifically mentions gluttony as being sinful
There isn't, hm..........
http://www.gotquestions.org/gluttony-sin.html (http://www.gotquestions.org/gluttony-sin.html)
Jamie,
I think you are begging the question.
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 15:18:30
Jamie,
I think you are begging the question.
I think you are begging the answer!
The word "zalal" in the Hebrew is the word translated "gluttons" in some translations, "riotous eaters" in others. This is its definition:
1. to be worthless, be vile, be insignificant, be light
1. (Qal)
1. to be worthless, be insignificant
2. to make light of, squander, be lavish with
2. to shake, tremble, quake
1. (Niphal) to shake, quake
The Hebrew for the word in 23:2 is "nephesh", translated "gluttony" in the article you quoted, "appetite" in the KJV. Here is its definition:
soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
1. that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
2. living being
3. living being (with life in the blood)
4. the man himself, self, person or individual
5. seat of the appetites
6. seat of emotions and passions
7. activity of mind
1. dubious
8. activity of the will
1. dubious
9. activity of the character
1. dubious
I think the definitions of both show a deaper problem than merely eating an extra piece of pie (for which I heard a brother at a fellowship berated, and he was called a glutton and chewed out by his wife...the man fits neither of the descriptions above).
Why are we even discussing this?
Most of us are wrong about baptism, so we are gonna fry anyway.
Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow you may die!
Further, in regard to 23:2, the statement is made that one should be careful not to make a pig of himself in the presence of a king, context being important and all.
: Jaime Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 15:21:09
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 15:18:30
Jamie,
I think you are begging the question.
I think you are begging the answer!
Seriously, I think there is more to the sin of gluttony that just overeating. The Scripture verses that you provided seem to indicate that.
Websters Dictionary defines gluttony as: "excessive eating and drinking."
jmg,
I don't disagree. My whole reason for engaging in this thread was to vent my frustration at a lot, if not most elderships focusing on the issue of alcohol, when overeating COULD be a far more insidious problem in the life of a deacon candidate or bible class teacher. By no means are all fat people sinners for being that way. By no means is everyone who eats an extra piece of pie a glutton. BUT, it could be a serious spiritual problem in someone's life. I personally believe it IS a serious problem in MY life. I drink a beer on a very rare occasion. In my opinion that is way down on the list of concerns as to my qualification as a deacon or bible teacher. I know I had been nominated as a deacon once. The elders called me in and grilled me as to my views on alkyhol (spelling for hicky pronunciation). I told them I drink a beer on a very rare occasion. I am careful about my influence with it. etc, etc. They never once asked me do I have a problem with food, which I do. Hence my stance that abuse of food is every bit as much a serious spiritual concern as abuse of alcohol.
Back to my deacon selection meeting with the elders. I gathered from some of the comments, that they didn't care what my stance was, they just wanted me to say what they expected. Later in the meeting, they concluded that I was not deacon material because of my alcohol stance. My response was "I would rather be guilty of drinking a beer on a rare occasion, than to be guilty of lying to you about it."
Edited by Jaime for spelling
: Jaime Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 15:42:53
jmg,
I don't disagree. My whole reason for engaging in this thread was to vent my frustration at a lot, if not most elderships focusing on the issue of alcohol, when overeating COULD be a far more insidious problem in the life of a deacon candidate or bible class teacher. By no means are all fat people sinners for being that way. By no means is everyone who eats an extra piece of pie a glutton. BUT, it could be a serious spiritual problem in someone's life. I personally believe it IS a serious problem in MY life. I drink a beer on a very rare occasion. In my opinion that is way down on the list of concerns as to my qualification as a deacon or bible teacher. I know I had been nominated as a deacon once. The elders called me in and grilled me as to my views on alkyhol (spelling for hicky pronunciation). I told them I drink a beer on a very rare occasion. I am careful about my influence with it. etc, etc. They never once asked my do I have a problem with food, which I do. Hence my stance that abuse of food is every bit as much a serious spiritual concern as abuse of alcohol.
Back to my deacon selection meeting with the elders. I gathered from some of the comments, that they didn't care what my stance was, they just wanted me to say what they expected. Later in the meeting, they concluded that I was not deacon material because of my alcohol stance. My response was "I would rather be guilty of drinking a beer on a rare occasion, than to be guilty of lying to you about it."
You should tell them you wouldn't want to add to scripture to invent a sin that God didn't put there.
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 15:33:36
: Jaime Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 15:21:09
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 15:18:30
Jamie,
I think you are begging the question.
I think you are begging the answer!
Seriously, I think there is more to the sin of gluttony that just overeating. The Scripture verses that you provided seem to indicate that.
Of course, like I said in a previous post, one can be gluttonous towards sex, or shopping or any normal activity taken to an extreme...........Now that'll preach!
: Gary Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 15:44:03
: Jaime Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 15:42:53
jmg,
I don't disagree. My whole reason for engaging in this thread was to vent my frustration at a lot, if not most elderships focusing on the issue of alcohol, when overeating COULD be a far more insidious problem in the life of a deacon candidate or bible class teacher. By no means are all fat people sinners for being that way. By no means is everyone who eats an extra piece of pie a glutton. BUT, it could be a serious spiritual problem in someone's life. I personally believe it IS a serious problem in MY life. I drink a beer on a very rare occasion. In my opinion that is way down on the list of concerns as to my qualification as a deacon or bible teacher. I know I had been nominated as a deacon once. The elders called me in and grilled me as to my views on alkyhol (spelling for hicky pronunciation). I told them I drink a beer on a very rare occasion. I am careful about my influence with it. etc, etc. They never once asked my do I have a problem with food, which I do. Hence my stance that abuse of food is every bit as much a serious spiritual concern as abuse of alcohol.
Back to my deacon selection meeting with the elders. I gathered from some of the comments, that they didn't care what my stance was, they just wanted me to say what they expected. Later in the meeting, they concluded that I was not deacon material because of my alcohol stance. My response was "I would rather be guilty of drinking a beer on a rare occasion, than to be guilty of lying to you about it."
You should tell them you wouldn't want to add to scripture to invent a sin that God didn't put there.
Yep.
I always think of good stuff to say after the fact. ::doh::
: Jaime Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 15:44:28
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 15:33:36
: Jaime Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 15:21:09
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 15:18:30
Jamie,
I think you are begging the question.
I think you are begging the answer!
Seriously, I think there is more to the sin of gluttony that just overeating. The Scripture verses that you provided seem to indicate that.
Of course, like I said in a previous post, one can be gluttonous towards sex, or shopping or any normal activity taken to an extreme...........Now that'll preach!
Jamie,
I don't think sex has anything to do with gluttony. Or shopping. I think gluttony is overeating or hoarding food, but not just overeating or hoarding food. It is overeating or hoarding food for a sinful reason.
I can go along with that Brian, however, I think that HARMFUL overeating is always for some reason other than a righteous or healthy reason. If something is not righteous or healthy is it not by definition sinful?
The above does not apply to an extra piece of pie on occasion. Bad judgement maybe, but not sinful necessarily.
Father forgive me for I have commited the sin of gluttony. I still do and can not seem to stop repeating it from time to time. Please chage my heart and give me the strength to over come this deadly sin. I put my fate in your hands Father for it is your strenght that I need. In Christ name I pray.
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 15:49:12
: Jaime Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 15:44:28
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 15:33:36
: Jaime Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 15:21:09
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 15:18:30
Jamie,
I think you are begging the question.
I think you are begging the answer!
Seriously, I think there is more to the sin of gluttony that just overeating. The Scripture verses that you provided seem to indicate that.
Of course, like I said in a previous post, one can be gluttonous towards sex, or shopping or any normal activity taken to an extreme...........Now that'll preach!
Jamie,
I don't think sex has anything to do with gluttony. Or shopping. I think gluttony is overeating or hoarding food, but not just overeating or hoarding food. It is overeating or hoarding food for a sinful reason.
here is what the dictionary says:
glut·ton1 /ˈglʌtn/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[gluht-n] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a person who eats and drinks excessively or voraciously.
2. a person with a remarkably great desire or capacity for something: a glutton for work; a glutton for punishment
: bvaug Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 16:02:25
Father forgive me for I have commited the sin of gluttony. I still do and can not seem to stop repeating it from time to time. Please chage my heart and give me the strength to over come this deadly sin. I put my fate in your hands Father for it is your strenght that I need. In Christ name I pray.
Bill, I ditto that prayer and confession. Thank you for your heart!
A good place to begin to understand gluttony is the fifth book of St. John Cassian's Monastic Institutes (http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-11/Npnf2-11-39.htm#P2442_1025677), where he decribes gluttony: "And so the first conflict we must enter upon is that against gluttony, which we have explained as the pleasures of the palate . . . "
The conflict he speaks of here is the battle agains the passions. The passions, according to historic Christian thought, are those desires and appetites that are either at war with God's will for us, or are distortations of God-given desires and appetites, and which cause us to turn our focus and attention away from God. This battle is not just intermittent skirmishes, but a moment-by-moment battle involving the will, free choice, and the mind. All that a Christian is to do is to be governed by his Spirit-influenced mind, and not to simply be from the direction and influence of his bodily desires.
St. John Cassian continues, quoting the desert monastic Anthony:
"And so on the manner of fasting a uniform rule cannot easily be observed, because everybody has not the same strength; nor is it like the rest of the virtues, acquired by steadfastness of mind alone. And therefore, because it does not depend only on mental firmness, since it has to do with the possibilities of the body, we have received this explanation concerning it which has been handed down to us, viz.: that there is a difference of time, manner, and quality of the refreshment in proportion to the difference of condition of the body, the age, and sex: but that there is one and the same rule of restraint to everybody as regards continence of mind, and the virtue of the spirit. For it is impossible for every one to prolong his fast for a week, or to postpone taking refreshment during a two or three days' abstinence. By many people also who are worn out with sickness and especially with old age, a fast even up to sunset cannot be endured without suffering. The sickly food of moistened beans does not agree with everybody: nor does a sparing diet of fresh vegetables suit all, nor is a scanty meal of dry bread permitted to all alike. One man does not feel satisfied with two pounds, for another a meal of one pound, or six ounces, is too much; but there is one aim and object of continence in the case of all of these, viz.: that no one may be overburdened beyond the measure of his appetite, by gluttony. For it is not only the quality, but also the quantity of food taken which dulls the keenness of the mind, and when the soul as well as the flesh is surfeited, kindles the baneful and fiery incentive to vice.
"The belly when filled with all kinds of food gives birth to seeds of wantonness, nor can the mind, when choked with the weight of food, keep the guidance and government of the thoughts. For not only is drunkennesswith wine wont to intoxicate the mind, but excess of all kinds of food makes it weak and uncertain, and robs it of all its power of pure and clear contemplation. The cause of the overthrow and wantonness of Sodom was not drunkenness through wine, but fulness of bread. Hear the Lord rebuking Jerusalem through the prophet. "For how did thy sister Sodom sin, except in that she ate her bread in fulness and abundance?" And because through fulness of bread they were inflamed with uncontrollable lust of the flesh, they were burnt up by the judgment of God with fire and brimstone from heaven. But if excess of bread alone drove them to such a headlong downfall into sin through the vice of satiety, what shall we think of those who with a vigorous body dare to partake of meat and wine with unbounded licence, taking not just what their bodily frailty demands, but what the eager desire of the mind suggests.
"Bodily weakness is no hindrance to purity of heart, if only so much food is taken as the bodily weakness requires, and not what pleasure asks for. It is easier to find men who altogether abstain from the more fattening kinds of foods than men who make a moderate use of what is allowed to our necessities; and men who deny themselves everything out of love of continence than men who taking food on the plea of weakness preserve the due measure of what is sufficient. For bodily weakness has its glory of self-restraint, where though food is permitted to the failing body, a man deprives himself of his refreshment. although he needs it, and only indulges in just so much food as the strict judgment of temperance decides to be sufficient for the necessities of life, and not what the longing appetite asks for. The more delicate foods, as they conduce to bodily health, so they need not destroy the purity of chastity, if they are taken in moderation. For whatever strength is gained by partaking of them is used up in the toil and waste of car. Wherefore as no state of life can be deprived of the virtue of abstinence, so to none is the crown of perfection denied.
"And so it is a very true and most excellent saying of the Fathers that the right method of fasting and abstinence lies in the measure of moderation and bodily chastening; and that this is the aim of perfect virtue for all alike, viz.: that though we are still forced to desire it, yet we should exercise self-restraint in the matter of the food, which we are obliged to take owing to the necessity of supporting the body. For even if one is weak in body, he can attain to a perfect virtue and one equal to that of those who are thoroughly strong and healthy, if with firmness of mind he keeps a check upon the desires and lusts which are not due to weakness of the flesh. For the Apostle says: "And take not care for the flesh in its lusts." He does not forbid care for it in every respect: but says that care is not to be taken in regard to its desires and lusts. He cuts away the luxurious fondness for the flesh: he does not exclude the control necessary for life: he does the former, lest through pampering the flesh we should be involved in dangerous entanglements of the desires; the latter lest the body should be injured by our fault and unable to fulfil its spiritual and necessary duties.
"The perfection then of abstinence is not to be gathered from calculations of time alone, nor only from the quality of the food; but beyond everything from the judgment of conscience. For each one should impose such a sparing diet on himself as the battle of his bodily struggle may require. The canonical observance of fasts is indeed valuable and by all means to be kept. But unless this is followed by a temperate partaking of food, one will not be able to arrive at the goal of perfection. For the abstinence of prolonged fasts-where repletion of body follows-produces weariness for a time rather than purity and chastity. Perfection of mind indeed depends upon the abstinence of the belly. He has no lasting purity and chastity, who is not contented always to keep to a well-balanced and temperate diet. Fasting, although severe, yet if unnecessary relaxation follows, is rendered useless, and presently leads to the vice of gluttony. A reasonable supply of food partaken of daily with moderation, is better than a severe and long fast at intervals. Excessive fasting has been known not only to undermine the constancy of the mind, but also to weaken the power of prayers through sheer weariness of body.
"Is order to preserve the mind and body in a perfect condition abstinence from food is not alone sufficient: unless the other virtues of the mind as well are joined to it. And so humility must first be learned by the virtue of obedience, and grinding toil15 and bodily exhaustion. The possession of money must not only be avoided, but the desire for it must be l utterly rooted out. For it is not enough not to possess it,-a thing which comes to many as a matter of necessity: but we ought, if by chance it is offered, not even to admit the wish to have it. The madness of anger should be controlled; the downcast look of dejection be overcome; vainglory should be despised, the disdainfulness of pride trampled under foot, and the shifting and wandering thoughts of the mind restrained by continual recollection of God. And the slippery wanderings of our heart should be brought back again to the contemplation of God as often as our crafty enemy, in his endeavour to lead away the mind a captive from this consideration, creeps into the innermost recesses of the heart. . . .
"We should then choose for our food, not only that which moderates the heat of burning lust, and avoids kindling it; but what is easily got ready, and what is recommended by its cheapness, and is suitable to the life of the brethren and their common use. For the nature of gluttony is threefold: first, there is that which forces us to anticipate the proper hour for a meal, next that which delights in stuffing the stomach, and gorging all kinds of food; thirdly, that which takes pleasure in more refined and delicate feasting. And so against it a monk should observe a threefold watch: first, he should wait till the proper time for breaking the fast; secondly, he should not give way to gorging; thirdly, he should be contented with any of the commoner sorts of food. For anything that is taken over and above what is customary and the common use of all, is branded by the ancient tradition of the fathers as defiled with the sin of vanity and glorying and ostentation. Nor of those whomwe have seen to be deservedly eminent for learning and discretion, or whom the grace of Christ has singled out as shining lights for every one to imitate, have we known any who have abstained from eating bread which is accounted cheap and easily to be obtained among them; nor have we seen that any one who has rejected this rule and given up the use of bread and taken to a diet of beansor herbs or fruits, has been reckoned among the most esteemed, or even acquired the grace of knowledge and discretion. For not only do they lay it down that a monk ought not to ask for foods which are not customary for others, lest his mode of life should be exposed publicly to all and rendered vain and idle and so be destroyed by the disease of vanity; but they insist that the common chastening discipline of fasts ought not lightly to be disclosed to any one, but as far as possible concealed and kept secret. But when any of the brethren arrive they rule that we ought to show the virtues of kindness and charity instead of observing a severe abstinence and our strict daily rule: nor should we consider what our own wishes and profit or the ardour of our desires may require, but set before us and gladly fulfil whatever the refreshment of the guest, or his weakness may demand from us."
CD, thanks for that thought provoking post. It seems that in the past many people thought much more deeply about these matters, and took them more seriously, than we do today.
: Jaime Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 15:55:18
I can go along with that Brian, however, I think that HARMFUL overeating is always for some reason other than a righteous or healthy reason. If something is not righteous or healthy is it not by definition sinful?
The above does not apply to an extra piece of pie on occasion. Bad judgement maybe, but not sinful necessarily.
I don't agree that everything that is unhealthy is sinful. Christ gave his own life, clearly not healthy for his human flesh. And yet Christ never sinned.
: admin Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 15:41:46
Websters Dictionary defines gluttony as: "excessive eating and drinking."
Like I said at the beginning, I agree that is the traditional meaning of the word "gluttony", at least in English. I'm concerned about what God thinks about gluttony -- that is, when is overeating sinful.
: Jaime Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 15:42:53
jmg,
I don't disagree. My whole reason for engaging in this thread was to vent my frustration at a lot, if not most elderships focusing on the issue of alcohol, when overeating COULD be a far more insidious problem in the life of a deacon candidate or bible class teacher. By no means are all fat people sinners for being that way. By no means is everyone who eats an extra piece of pie a glutton. BUT, it could be a serious spiritual problem in someone's life. I personally believe it IS a serious problem in MY life. I drink a beer on a very rare occasion. In my opinion that is way down on the list of concerns as to my qualification as a deacon or bible teacher. I know I had been nominated as a deacon once. The elders called me in and grilled me as to my views on alkyhol (spelling for hicky pronunciation). I told them I drink a beer on a very rare occasion. I am careful about my influence with it. etc, etc. They never once asked me do I have a problem with food, which I do. Hence my stance that abuse of food is every bit as much a serious spiritual concern as abuse of alcohol.
On occasion I'll have a glass of wine (very, very rarely). Scripture doesn't teach that drinking alcohol is sinful. It teaches that drunkeness is sinful -- that is, knowingly and willfully allowing yourself to become drunk.
: bvaug Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 16:02:25
Father forgive me for I have commited the sin of gluttony. I still do and can not seem to stop repeating it from time to time. Please chage my heart and give me the strength to over come this deadly sin. I put my fate in your hands Father for it is your strenght that I need. In Christ name I pray.
Amen Brother, I stand convicted with you. I stand in agreement with you.
FTL
By the authority and power of Jesus's name.
: bvaug Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 16:02:25
Father forgive me for I have commited the sin of gluttony. I still do and can not seem to stop repeating it from time to time. Please chage my heart and give me the strength to over come this deadly sin. I put my fate in your hands Father for it is your strenght that I need. In Christ name I pray.
If I could honestly say that I am guilty of gluttony I would issue the same plea. But it isn't clear to me exactly what gluttony is. So it would be hypocritical of me to issue the same plea.
Yes thank you CD. I am still digesting your post.........not that I ate it or anything mind you! ::smile::
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 16:43:44
: Jaime Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 15:55:18
I can go along with that Brian, however, I think that HARMFUL overeating is always for some reason other than a righteous or healthy reason. If something is not righteous or healthy is it not by definition sinful?
The above does not apply to an extra piece of pie on occasion. Bad judgement maybe, but not sinful necessarily.
I don't agree that everything that is unhealthy is sinful. Christ gave his own life, clearly not healthy for his human flesh. And yet Christ never sinned.
If being in bad health is a sin then everyone who dies of natural causes is in hell.
: jmg3rd Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 17:05:28
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 16:43:44
: Jaime Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 15:55:18
I can go along with that Brian, however, I think that HARMFUL overeating is always for some reason other than a righteous or healthy reason. If something is not righteous or healthy is it not by definition sinful?
The above does not apply to an extra piece of pie on occasion. Bad judgement maybe, but not sinful necessarily.
I don't agree that everything that is unhealthy is sinful. Christ gave his own life, clearly not healthy for his human flesh. And yet Christ never sinned.
If being in bad health is a sin then everyone who dies of natural causes is in hell.
It depends on why the health was bad. But no, bad health unto itself is not a sin. I assume we all agree that some behavior that causes bad health could be sinful.
: Jaime Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 17:13:54
: jmg3rd Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 17:05:28
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 16:43:44
: Jaime Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 15:55:18
I can go along with that Brian, however, I think that HARMFUL overeating is always for some reason other than a righteous or healthy reason. If something is not righteous or healthy is it not by definition sinful?
The above does not apply to an extra piece of pie on occasion. Bad judgement maybe, but not sinful necessarily.
I don't agree that everything that is unhealthy is sinful. Christ gave his own life, clearly not healthy for his human flesh. And yet Christ never sinned.
If being in bad health is a sin then everyone who dies of natural causes is in hell.
It depends on why the health was bad. But no, bad health unto itself is not a sin. I assume we all agree that some behavior that causes bad health could be sinful.
Not just because it causes bad health. Smoking crack is sinful, but not because it's bad for your health. It's sinful because the crack smoker is relying on crack instead of relying on God... idolatry.
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 16:48:57
: Jaime Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 15:42:53
jmg,
I don't disagree. My whole reason for engaging in this thread was to vent my frustration at a lot, if not most elderships focusing on the issue of alcohol, when overeating COULD be a far more insidious problem in the life of a deacon candidate or bible class teacher. By no means are all fat people sinners for being that way. By no means is everyone who eats an extra piece of pie a glutton. BUT, it could be a serious spiritual problem in someone's life. I personally believe it IS a serious problem in MY life. I drink a beer on a very rare occasion. In my opinion that is way down on the list of concerns as to my qualification as a deacon or bible teacher. I know I had been nominated as a deacon once. The elders called me in and grilled me as to my views on alkyhol (spelling for hicky pronunciation). I told them I drink a beer on a very rare occasion. I am careful about my influence with it. etc, etc. They never once asked me do I have a problem with food, which I do. Hence my stance that abuse of food is every bit as much a serious spiritual concern as abuse of alcohol.
On occasion I'll have a glass of wine (very, very rarely). Scripture doesn't teach that drinking alcohol is sinful. It teaches that drunkeness is sinful -- that is, knowingly and willfully allowing yourself to become drunk.
How do you define drunkeness? What percent of impairment is OK before "drunk" occurs, biblically speaking? Is 5% impaired allowable, 2%? I don't know the anwer myself. If I knew the answer, my stance might be different.
I don't have time to look it up right now, I've got a Bible study to lead, but God condemned the people of one nation or another because their idolatry was their bodies (I'll try to confirm that when I get back). I'd submit you have just as much a problem in the US on that end, and just as much in the church, and often you have the gluttons and the body-worshipers sitting in judgment of one another.
Once again, it seems that it comes back to my theme verse for the last year...Ecclesiastes 7:18, "The man who fears God will avoid all extremes."
: Jaime Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 17:19:10
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 16:48:57
: Jaime Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 15:42:53
jmg,
I don't disagree. My whole reason for engaging in this thread was to vent my frustration at a lot, if not most elderships focusing on the issue of alcohol, when overeating COULD be a far more insidious problem in the life of a deacon candidate or bible class teacher. By no means are all fat people sinners for being that way. By no means is everyone who eats an extra piece of pie a glutton. BUT, it could be a serious spiritual problem in someone's life. I personally believe it IS a serious problem in MY life. I drink a beer on a very rare occasion. In my opinion that is way down on the list of concerns as to my qualification as a deacon or bible teacher. I know I had been nominated as a deacon once. The elders called me in and grilled me as to my views on alkyhol (spelling for hicky pronunciation). I told them I drink a beer on a very rare occasion. I am careful about my influence with it. etc, etc. They never once asked me do I have a problem with food, which I do. Hence my stance that abuse of food is every bit as much a serious spiritual concern as abuse of alcohol.
On occasion I'll have a glass of wine (very, very rarely). Scripture doesn't teach that drinking alcohol is sinful. It teaches that drunkeness is sinful -- that is, knowingly and willfully allowing yourself to become drunk.
How do you define drunkeness? What percent of impairment is OK before "drunk" occurs, biblically speaking? Is 5% impaired allowable, 2%? I don't know the anwer myself. If I knew the answer, my stance might be different.
I already defined drunkeness: knowingly and willfully allowing yourself to become drunk.
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 16:52:24
: bvaug Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 16:02:25
Father forgive me for I have commited the sin of gluttony. I still do and can not seem to stop repeating it from time to time. Please chage my heart and give me the strength to over come this deadly sin. I put my fate in your hands Father for it is your strenght that I need. In Christ name I pray.
If I could honestly say that I am guilty of gluttony I would issue the same plea. But it isn't clear to me exactly what gluttony is. So it would be hypocritical of me to issue the same plea.
I think gluttony is like pornography. I can't specifically define it to everyone's satisfaction, but I know what it looks like when I see it or experience it in my life.
I can't find the scripture, but there is a verse somewhere that says essentially....to him that thinks somethings is a sin, then to him it is a sin. I hope it's in there somewhere!
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 17:22:07
: Jaime Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 17:19:10
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 16:48:57
: Jaime Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 15:42:53
jmg,
I don't disagree. My whole reason for engaging in this thread was to vent my frustration at a lot, if not most elderships focusing on the issue of alcohol, when overeating COULD be a far more insidious problem in the life of a deacon candidate or bible class teacher. By no means are all fat people sinners for being that way. By no means is everyone who eats an extra piece of pie a glutton. BUT, it could be a serious spiritual problem in someone's life. I personally believe it IS a serious problem in MY life. I drink a beer on a very rare occasion. In my opinion that is way down on the list of concerns as to my qualification as a deacon or bible teacher. I know I had been nominated as a deacon once. The elders called me in and grilled me as to my views on alkyhol (spelling for hicky pronunciation). I told them I drink a beer on a very rare occasion. I am careful about my influence with it. etc, etc. They never once asked me do I have a problem with food, which I do. Hence my stance that abuse of food is every bit as much a serious spiritual concern as abuse of alcohol.
On occasion I'll have a glass of wine (very, very rarely). Scripture doesn't teach that drinking alcohol is sinful. It teaches that drunkeness is sinful -- that is, knowingly and willfully allowing yourself to become drunk.
How do you define drunkeness? What percent of impairment is OK before "drunk" occurs, biblically speaking? Is 5% impaired allowable, 2%? I don't know the anwer myself. If I knew the answer, my stance might be different.
I already defined drunkeness: knowingly and willfully allowing yourself to become drunk.
Brian, I agree with the knowingly and willfully, but at what level of
IMPAIRMENT is one at when he is drunk, regardless of the reason. One glass of wine won't make you a stumbling drunk, but one's body is to some extent impaired from one's "tea totaling state."
I may be legally drunk from one beer even though I am not staggering and foaming at the mouth.
: Jaime Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 17:29:18
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 17:22:07
: Jaime Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 17:19:10
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 16:48:57
: Jaime Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 15:42:53
jmg,
I don't disagree. My whole reason for engaging in this thread was to vent my frustration at a lot, if not most elderships focusing on the issue of alcohol, when overeating COULD be a far more insidious problem in the life of a deacon candidate or bible class teacher. By no means are all fat people sinners for being that way. By no means is everyone who eats an extra piece of pie a glutton. BUT, it could be a serious spiritual problem in someone's life. I personally believe it IS a serious problem in MY life. I drink a beer on a very rare occasion. In my opinion that is way down on the list of concerns as to my qualification as a deacon or bible teacher. I know I had been nominated as a deacon once. The elders called me in and grilled me as to my views on alkyhol (spelling for hicky pronunciation). I told them I drink a beer on a very rare occasion. I am careful about my influence with it. etc, etc. They never once asked me do I have a problem with food, which I do. Hence my stance that abuse of food is every bit as much a serious spiritual concern as abuse of alcohol.
On occasion I'll have a glass of wine (very, very rarely). Scripture doesn't teach that drinking alcohol is sinful. It teaches that drunkeness is sinful -- that is, knowingly and willfully allowing yourself to become drunk.
How do you define drunkeness? What percent of impairment is OK before "drunk" occurs, biblically speaking? Is 5% impaired allowable, 2%? I don't know the anwer myself. If I knew the answer, my stance might be different.
I already defined drunkeness: knowingly and willfully allowing yourself to become drunk.
Brian, I agree with the knowingly and willfully, but at what level of IMPAIRMENT is one at when he is drunk, regardless of the reason. One glass of wine won't make you a stumbling drunk, but one's body is to some extent impaired from one's "tea totaling state."
I may be legally drunk from one beer even though I am not staggering and foaming at the mouth.
I don't think the level of impairment is what makes the action sinful. The action is sinful because the person is knowingly and willfully allowing himself to become drunk.
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 14:34:58
: Jaime Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 14:32:03
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 14:25:27
Jamie,
I've given a couple of different ideas of what gluttony can be in this thread: a special case of idolatry and a special case of greed.
Exactly, those are the 2 main reasons for overeating I would say.
So overeating is not a sin in your opinion?
If it is not a sin, would you agree that it is at least a bad idea, and a possible stumbling block for a weaker brother or sister?
Jamie,
Those are not the only reasons why someone might overeat. For example, someone might overeat because they still feel physical hunger after they have already consumed what their body requires.
My answer to this is "So?"
People feel hunger every day. Just because we feel it, doesn't mean we have to give in to it. A pedophile feels hunger every day. Has an insatiable craving. Would that excuse work for him/her? I don't think so.
Sexual assault is a sin because we are intentionally harming another person, not loving them as Christ teaches. I can't find any Scripture that teaches overeating because you are hungry is a sin.
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 16:52:24
: bvaug Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 16:02:25
Father forgive me for I have commited the sin of gluttony. I still do and can not seem to stop repeating it from time to time. Please chage my heart and give me the strength to over come this deadly sin. I put my fate in your hands Father for it is your strenght that I need. In Christ name I pray.
If I could honestly say that I am guilty of gluttony I would issue the same plea. But it isn't clear to me exactly what gluttony is. So it would be hypocritical of me to issue the same plea.
One of the hebrew words translated as "glutton" means "worthless, insignificant". One of the greek words translated as "gluttonous" means "voracious" (which means "greedy in eating"). In today's english, "gluttony" means "eating to excess". Doesn't matter. It is still wrong when viewed in the following way:
When eating is more important than keepings God's Temple pure and healthy, food has become an idol.
When feeding self is more important than feeding the hungry, food has become an idol.
When one has to justify eating to excess, food has become an idol.
When one needs a line drawn as to how much is "excess", food has become an idol.
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 19:35:48
Sexual assault is a sin because we are intentionally harming another person, not loving them as Christ teaches. I can't find any Scripture that teaches overeating because you are hungry is a sin.
The principle is the same, Brian. A craving that controls is a sin, whether it's a crime or not.
Anyone who weighs 300+ pounds is not truly hungry.
I know what it means in today's English. But Scripture wasn't written in today's English.
: phoebe Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 19:51:19
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 19:35:48
Sexual assault is a sin because we are intentionally harming another person, not loving them as Christ teaches. I can't find any Scripture that teaches overeating because you are hungry is a sin.
The principple is the same, Brian. A craving that controls is a sin, whether it's a crime or not.
Anyone who weighs 300+ pounds is not truly hungry.
I don't believe that hunger is necessarily a craving that controls.
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 19:51:56
I know what it means in today's English. But Scripture wasn't written in today's English.
: phoebe Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 19:51:19
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 19:35:48
Sexual assault is a sin because we are intentionally harming another person, not loving them as Christ teaches. I can't find any Scripture that teaches overeating because you are hungry is a sin.
The principple is the same, Brian. A craving that controls is a sin, whether it's a crime or not.
Anyone who weighs 300+ pounds is not truly hungry.
I don't believe that hunger is necessarily a craving that controls.
It's controlling if one weighs over 300#.
: phoebe Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 19:48:31
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 16:52:24
: bvaug Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 16:02:25
Father forgive me for I have commited the sin of gluttony. I still do and can not seem to stop repeating it from time to time. Please chage my heart and give me the strength to over come this deadly sin. I put my fate in your hands Father for it is your strenght that I need. In Christ name I pray.
If I could honestly say that I am guilty of gluttony I would issue the same plea. But it isn't clear to me exactly what gluttony is. So it would be hypocritical of me to issue the same plea.
One of the hebrew words translated as "glutton" means "worthless, insignificant". One of the greek words translated as "gluttonous" means "voracious" (which means "greedy in eating"). In today's english, "gluttony" means "eating to excess". Doesn't matter. It is still wrong when viewed in the following way:
When eating is more important than keepings God's Temple pure and healthy, food has become an idol.
When feeding self is more important than feeding the hungry, food has become an idol.
When one has to justify eating to excess, food has become an idol.
When one needs a line drawn as to how much is "excess", food has become an idol.
It is truly amazing how many ways there are to sin, and how easily we can falter.
Praise God for His abundant grace and mercy!
: phoebe Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 19:53:38
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 19:51:56
I know what it means in today's English. But Scripture wasn't written in today's English.
: phoebe Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 19:51:19
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 19:35:48
Sexual assault is a sin because we are intentionally harming another person, not loving them as Christ teaches. I can't find any Scripture that teaches overeating because you are hungry is a sin.
The principple is the same, Brian. A craving that controls is a sin, whether it's a crime or not.
Anyone who weighs 300+ pounds is not truly hungry.
I don't believe that hunger is necessarily a craving that controls.
It's controlling if one weighs over 300#.
I don't know how you could demonstrate that to be a universal truth.
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 19:57:53
: phoebe Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 19:53:38
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 19:51:56
I know what it means in today's English. But Scripture wasn't written in today's English.
: phoebe Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 19:51:19
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 19:35:48
Sexual assault is a sin because we are intentionally harming another person, not loving them as Christ teaches. I can't find any Scripture that teaches overeating because you are hungry is a sin.
The principple is the same, Brian. A craving that controls is a sin, whether it's a crime or not.
Anyone who weighs 300+ pounds is not truly hungry.
I don't believe that hunger is necessarily a craving that controls.
It's controlling if one weighs over 300#.
I don't know how you could demonstrate that to be a universal truth.
Why focus on exceptions?
: Gary Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 19:59:18
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 19:57:53
: phoebe Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 19:53:38
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 19:51:56
I know what it means in today's English. But Scripture wasn't written in today's English.
: phoebe Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 19:51:19
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 19:35:48
Sexual assault is a sin because we are intentionally harming another person, not loving them as Christ teaches. I can't find any Scripture that teaches overeating because you are hungry is a sin.
The principple is the same, Brian. A craving that controls is a sin, whether it's a crime or not.
Anyone who weighs 300+ pounds is not truly hungry.
I don't believe that hunger is necessarily a craving that controls.
It's controlling if one weighs over 300#.
I don't know how you could demonstrate that to be a universal truth.
Why focus on exceptions?
I'm not focusing on exceptions. I'm asking for the general rule.
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 20:00:00
: Gary Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 19:59:18
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 19:57:53
: phoebe Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 19:53:38
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 19:51:56
I know what it means in today's English. But Scripture wasn't written in today's English.
: phoebe Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 19:51:19
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 19:35:48
Sexual assault is a sin because we are intentionally harming another person, not loving them as Christ teaches. I can't find any Scripture that teaches overeating because you are hungry is a sin.
The principple is the same, Brian. A craving that controls is a sin, whether it's a crime or not.
Anyone who weighs 300+ pounds is not truly hungry.
I don't believe that hunger is necessarily a craving that controls.
It's controlling if one weighs over 300#.
I don't know how you could demonstrate that to be a universal truth.
Why focus on exceptions?
I'm not focusing on exceptions. I'm asking for the general rule.
Generally people that weigh 300 pounds eat too much.
: Gary Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 20:00:41
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 20:00:00
: Gary Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 19:59:18
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 19:57:53
: phoebe Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 19:53:38
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 19:51:56
I know what it means in today's English. But Scripture wasn't written in today's English.
: phoebe Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 19:51:19
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 19:35:48
Sexual assault is a sin because we are intentionally harming another person, not loving them as Christ teaches. I can't find any Scripture that teaches overeating because you are hungry is a sin.
The principple is the same, Brian. A craving that controls is a sin, whether it's a crime or not.
Anyone who weighs 300+ pounds is not truly hungry.
I don't believe that hunger is necessarily a craving that controls.
It's controlling if one weighs over 300#.
I don't know how you could demonstrate that to be a universal truth.
Why focus on exceptions?
I'm not focusing on exceptions. I'm asking for the general rule.
Generally people that weigh 300 pounds eat too much.
Duh! No disagreement there.
One has to be honest with oneself. You can fool yourself for a while, but you can never fool God.
: phoebe Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 20:02:51
One has to be honest with oneself. You can fool yourself for a while, but you can never fool God.
Phoebe,
You appeart to be attempting to judge my heart.
Since leaving high school I have been afflicted with Fork To Mouth (FTM) disease. I am now taking some steps to combat it, plus it is cheaper on the pocket book.
: phoebe Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 19:53:38
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 19:51:56
I know what it means in today's English. But Scripture wasn't written in today's English.
: phoebe Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 19:51:19
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 19:35:48
Sexual assault is a sin because we are intentionally harming another person, not loving them as Christ teaches. I can't find any Scripture that teaches overeating because you are hungry is a sin.
The principple is the same, Brian. A craving that controls is a sin, whether it's a crime or not.
Anyone who weighs 300+ pounds is not truly hungry.
I don't believe that hunger is necessarily a craving that controls.
It's controlling if one weighs over 300#.
BCV? Weight is not always an indicator, pheobe. Like I said earlier, I know plenty 150# gluttons. Didn't you say something earlier about a need to draw a line being a sign of food having become an idol? Same goes for "above this weight you're a glutton, below this line you're not". It's an easy way to whitewash your own tomb and feel OK.
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 20:04:14
: phoebe Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 20:02:51
One has to be honest with oneself. You can fool yourself for a while, but you can never fool God.
Phoebe,
You appeart to be attempting to judge my heart.
Hmmm.... In order for you to say that, you are judging mine. I was making a general statement, "you" being anyone, which
could include you, or not.
You seem to be making an excuse for overeating, Brian, trying to justify overeating. I didn't say
you overeat, but that you are excusing overeating. That's what I keep seeing in your posts. The 300# was just an example. It could be anything that controls. You know, as you and I have had this discussion before, that I believe that anything that we do that controls us or is more important than God and His desire for us is wrong, it is an idol, and God says we are to have no other god before Him, or, IOW, we are to love Him with everything - our heart, soul, mind, strength. Overeating is only one of those things that can be an idol.
Why would overeating be a sin?
1) Because it is about self-gratification, not about nutitrition for the body, which belongs to God.
2) Because it abuses the temple in which God's Spirit resides. It is flat-out not healthy.
3) Because it is an idol that has replaced God as the source of satisfaction. We find comfort in food, rather than in the Comforter.
Will one go to hell for overeating? I doubt it, but I'm not God, so I can't say for sure. Grace covers a whole lot of stuff, but that isn't the point. The point should be 'How can I best live my life for God's glory?' Is it done by _________? If it isn't, then we shouldn't do it, whether or not the specific action is mentioned by name as a sin in the Bible. We are to bring glory to God by how we live.
: jmg3rd Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 20:34:15
: phoebe Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 19:53:38
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 19:51:56
I know what it means in today's English. But Scripture wasn't written in today's English.
: phoebe Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 19:51:19
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 19:35:48
Sexual assault is a sin because we are intentionally harming another person, not loving them as Christ teaches. I can't find any Scripture that teaches overeating because you are hungry is a sin.
The principle is the same, Brian. A craving that controls is a sin, whether it's a crime or not.
Anyone who weighs 300+ pounds is not truly hungry.
I don't believe that hunger is necessarily a craving that controls.
It's controlling if one weighs over 300#.
BCV? Weight is not always an indicator, pheobe. Like I said earlier, I know plenty 150# gluttons. Didn't you say something earlier about a need to draw a line being a sign of food having become an idol? Same goes for "above this weight you're a glutton, below this line you're not". It's an easy way to whitewash your own tomb and feel OK.
What I said was that it seemed someone was asking for a line to be drawn. I don't draw those lines. The 300# was just to give an example. (Most people I know who weigh 300#+ have a problem with self-control. There are rare exceptions where medication can cause such weight gain, but that isn't the same issue as gluttony, which was what the initial question was about. Is anyone who weighs 300# truly hungry when they fill their plate for the third time?)
It isn't about weight at all, although weight
may be a fruit, a visual of what is, or is not, within. It's about having the courage to recognize that there is a hole in our lives that we are attempting to fill, for the purpose of self-gratification, with food or something else, rather than God.
I think it's a serious issue, one we like to sweep under the rug and pretend it doesn't exist.
When the men at the front of the line of 200+ at the potluck take 3 or 4 desserts piled on top of a heaping plate of food is it gluttony or just selfishness?
Good point nevertheless. Which sin would we rather be committing? Selfishness or Gluttony? Lying or Gossiping? Lasciviousness or Covetiousness? Greed or deceit?, etc., etc.
jq
: phoebe Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 23:48:32
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 20:04:14
: phoebe Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 20:02:51
One has to be honest with oneself. You can fool yourself for a while, but you can never fool God.
Phoebe,
You appeart to be attempting to judge my heart.
Hmmm.... In order for you to say that, you are judging mine. I was making a general statement, "you" being anyone, which could include you, or not.
You seem to be making an excuse for overeating, Brian, trying to justify overeating. I didn't say you overeat, but that you are excusing overeating. That's what I keep seeing in your posts. The 300# was just an example. It could be anything that controls. You know, as you and I have had this discussion before, that I believe that anything that we do that controls us or is more important than God and His desire for us is wrong, it is an idol, and God says we are to have no other god before Him, or, IOW, we are to love Him with everything - our heart, soul, mind, strength. Overeating is only one of those things that can be an idol.
Will one go to hell for overeating? I doubt it, but I'm not God, so I can't say for sure. Grace covers a whole lot of stuff, but that isn't the point. The point should be 'How can I best live my life for God's glory?' Is it done by _________? If it isn't, then we shouldn't do it, whether or not the specific action is mentioned by name as a sin in the Bible. We are to bring glory to God by how we live.
I agree with what you wrote, except that I don't view eating because you are hungry (even if you have eaten enough to avoid starvation) as being controlled by hunger. I view it as satisfying a real physical need.
2) Because it abuses the temple in which God's Spirit resides. It is flat-out not healthy.
I don't see that in Scripture.
: Nevertheless Fri Feb 02, 2007 - 00:16:53
When the men at the front of the line of 200+ at the potluck take 3 or 4 desserts piled on top of a heaping plate of food is it gluttony or just selfishness?
To me, unless there is enough desserts for everyone to take 3 or 4, it selfish. I think that might be the same thing as gluttony.
: BrianInChrist Fri Feb 02, 2007 - 06:58:51
: Nevertheless Fri Feb 02, 2007 - 00:16:53
When the men at the front of the line of 200+ at the potluck take 3 or 4 desserts piled on top of a heaping plate of food is it gluttony or just selfishness?
To me, unless there is enough desserts for everyone to take 3 or 4, it selfish. I think that might be the same thing as gluttony.
When I was younger it was always the old people that piled on the plates with food, and there was often not very much left for the kids. So I would go straight for dessert, to get something edible. And they would complain about no dessert being left. Darn old gluttons.
: Gary Fri Feb 02, 2007 - 07:04:14
: BrianInChrist Fri Feb 02, 2007 - 06:58:51
: Nevertheless Fri Feb 02, 2007 - 00:16:53
When the men at the front of the line of 200+ at the potluck take 3 or 4 desserts piled on top of a heaping plate of food is it gluttony or just selfishness?
To me, unless there is enough desserts for everyone to take 3 or 4, it selfish. I think that might be the same thing as gluttony.
When I was younger it was always the old people that piled on the plates with food, and there was often not very much left for the kids. So I would go straight for dessert, to get something edible. And they would complain about no dessert being left. Darn old gluttons.
Now that you are one of the old people, do you leave some dessert for the kids?
: Nevertheless Fri Feb 02, 2007 - 00:16:53
When the men at the front of the line of 200+ at the potluck take 3 or 4 desserts piled on top of a heaping plate of food is it gluttony or just selfishness?
Selfishness and self-centerdness is the root of all our sins, is it not?
: Serenity432001 Fri Feb 02, 2007 - 07:15:20
: Nevertheless Fri Feb 02, 2007 - 00:16:53
When the men at the front of the line of 200+ at the potluck take 3 or 4 desserts piled on top of a heaping plate of food is it gluttony or just selfishness?
Selfishness and self-centerdness is the root of all our sins, is it not?
Pride, I think, is the root of all of our sins. It manifests itself in many different ways, including selfishness and self-centeredness.
: BrianInChrist Fri Feb 02, 2007 - 07:05:46
: Gary Fri Feb 02, 2007 - 07:04:14
: BrianInChrist Fri Feb 02, 2007 - 06:58:51
: Nevertheless Fri Feb 02, 2007 - 00:16:53
When the men at the front of the line of 200+ at the potluck take 3 or 4 desserts piled on top of a heaping plate of food is it gluttony or just selfishness?
To me, unless there is enough desserts for everyone to take 3 or 4, it selfish. I think that might be the same thing as gluttony.
When I was younger it was always the old people that piled on the plates with food, and there was often not very much left for the kids. So I would go straight for dessert, to get something edible. And they would complain about no dessert being left. Darn old gluttons.
Now that you are one of the old people, do you leave some dessert for the kids?
Not that old yet. Maybe in about 40+ years.
I doubt that the kids would see it that way. ::smile::
: Nevertheless Fri Feb 02, 2007 - 00:16:53
When the men at the front of the line of 200+ at the potluck take 3 or 4 desserts piled on top of a heaping plate of food is it gluttony or just selfishness?
Same thing, Never.
: BrianInChrist Fri Feb 02, 2007 - 06:57:19
: phoebe Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 23:48:32
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 20:04:14
: phoebe Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 20:02:51
One has to be honest with oneself. You can fool yourself for a while, but you can never fool God.
Phoebe,
You appeart to be attempting to judge my heart.
Hmmm.... In order for you to say that, you are judging mine. I was making a general statement, "you" being anyone, which could include you, or not.
You seem to be making an excuse for overeating, Brian, trying to justify overeating. I didn't say you overeat, but that you are excusing overeating. That's what I keep seeing in your posts. The 300# was just an example. It could be anything that controls. You know, as you and I have had this discussion before, that I believe that anything that we do that controls us or is more important than God and His desire for us is wrong, it is an idol, and God says we are to have no other god before Him, or, IOW, we are to love Him with everything - our heart, soul, mind, strength. Overeating is only one of those things that can be an idol.
Will one go to hell for overeating? I doubt it, but I'm not God, so I can't say for sure. Grace covers a whole lot of stuff, but that isn't the point. The point should be 'How can I best live my life for God's glory?' Is it done by _________? If it isn't, then we shouldn't do it, whether or not the specific action is mentioned by name as a sin in the Bible. We are to bring glory to God by how we live.
I agree with what you wrote, except that I don't view eating because you are hungry (even if you have eaten enough to avoid starvation) as being controlled by hunger. I view it as satisfying a real physical need.
2) Because it abuses the temple in which God's Spirit resides. It is flat-out not healthy.
I don't see that in Scripture.
Brian - You seem to be viewing this through a very legalist eye. Gluttony or overeating is not about starvation or even hunger. We truly need very little for complete nutrition and satisfying the hunger. The problem is that of self-indulgence and self-gratification.
As to point 2, any doctor, ANY doctor, will tell you it is not healthy to overeat. There are ways of knowing if one is: BP, glucose, BMI, lung capacity, heart rate. No, all of those over the normal readings are not exclusively connected to overeating, but the majority are.
Overeating beyond the satisfaction of hunger is self-indulgence. Overeating to the point of obesity is self-gratification. God needs to be, wants to be, the Satisfier. Why do we fight Him?
: phoebe Fri Feb 02, 2007 - 10:18:48
: BrianInChrist Fri Feb 02, 2007 - 06:57:19
: phoebe Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 23:48:32
: BrianInChrist Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 20:04:14
: phoebe Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 20:02:51
One has to be honest with oneself. You can fool yourself for a while, but you can never fool God.
Phoebe,
You appeart to be attempting to judge my heart.
Hmmm.... In order for you to say that, you are judging mine. I was making a general statement, "you" being anyone, which could include you, or not.
You seem to be making an excuse for overeating, Brian, trying to justify overeating. I didn't say you overeat, but that you are excusing overeating. That's what I keep seeing in your posts. The 300# was just an example. It could be anything that controls. You know, as you and I have had this discussion before, that I believe that anything that we do that controls us or is more important than God and His desire for us is wrong, it is an idol, and God says we are to have no other god before Him, or, IOW, we are to love Him with everything - our heart, soul, mind, strength. Overeating is only one of those things that can be an idol.
Will one go to hell for overeating? I doubt it, but I'm not God, so I can't say for sure. Grace covers a whole lot of stuff, but that isn't the point. The point should be 'How can I best live my life for God's glory?' Is it done by _________? If it isn't, then we shouldn't do it, whether or not the specific action is mentioned by name as a sin in the Bible. We are to bring glory to God by how we live.
I agree with what you wrote, except that I don't view eating because you are hungry (even if you have eaten enough to avoid starvation) as being controlled by hunger. I view it as satisfying a real physical need.
2) Because it abuses the temple in which God's Spirit resides. It is flat-out not healthy.
I don't see that in Scripture.
Brian - You seem to be viewing this through a very legalist eye. Gluttony or overeating is not about starvation or even hunger. We truly need very little for complete nutrition and satisfying the hunger. The problem is that of self-indulgence and self-gratification.
No, I'm not viewing it through a legalistic eye. In fact, I agree that the problem is not simply overeating. I believe it is related to pride in some way.
As to point 2, any doctor, ANY doctor, will tell you it is not healthy to overeat. There are ways of knowing if one is: BP, glucose, BMI, lung capacity, heart rate. No, all of those over the normal readings are not exclusively connected to overeating, but the majority are.
I don't doubt that it is unhealthy to overeat. I doubt that it is sinful simply because it is unhealthy.
Overeating beyond the satisfaction of hunger is self-indulgence.
I would agree with that.
Overeating to the point of obesity is self-gratification. God needs to be, wants to be, the Satisfier. Why do we fight Him?
This I don't agree with. Some are obese because they eat until their hunger is satisfied. I don't believe that is sinful or self-gratification.
Brian - Even if one's body is out-of-whack and sends wrong signals, one still knows by the large body they carry around that they are overeating to obesity, and, therefore, are slowly destroying the Temple in which the Spirit resides. This is a specific medical problem, not the same, and it distracts from the points that I have been making: overeating is self-indulgence, "self" being the operative word; overeating is self-gratification, again, "self" being the operative word, choosing food over God to satisfy the soul. In addition, one who has this medical problem is not just left out there to eat themselves to oblivion. There is help. To indulge in such an illness is suicide, because one is fully aware of the consequences and refuses help. Eating is but one example of this kind of "self"-ness.
I've repeated myself several times. You get the point, and it's turned into arguing, not trying to understand and solve a problem. Bowing out...
Phoebe allow me to ask you this: is it sinful to indulge in tasty food?
I love pizza. I love brownies. I love potato chips. These foods do not provide vital nutrients in any way; they're just "fluff" items that make my mouth happy.
Are you saying we should only eat to live? Meaning eat only a sparse diet, nothing that would satisfy us on an emotional or "taste" level?
I ask because, if I follow your words to their logical conclusion, that's where I wind up: a Puritanical way of looking at food.
Phoebe,
I'm really trying to better understand what God has to say about gluttony. I can't find any Scripture that teaches that it is sinful to do things that are unhealthy. By that standard, those who injure themselves playing sports, those who run in marathons, those who remain in the presence of second hand smoke are all sinning. It doesn't seem Scriptural to me.
I do respect your desire not to turn it into an argument.
: kalen Fri Feb 02, 2007 - 10:42:09
Phoebe allow me to ask you this: is it sinful to indulge in tasty food?
I love pizza. I love brownies. I love potato chips. These foods do not provide vital nutrients in any way; they're just "fluff" items that make my mouth happy.
Are you saying we should only eat to live? Meaning eat only a sparse diet, nothing that would satisfy us on an emotional or "taste" level?
I ask because, if I follow your words to their logical conclusion, that's where I wind up: a Puritanical way of looking at food.
Pizza has fruits (tomato), dairy (cheese), protein (meat), and if a good flour is used for the crust you get fiber.
It is a GREAT food. Don't call it fluff, or I will accuse you of throwing away baptism.
Okay, perhaps pizza wasn't the BEST choice (I'm right there with you in defending it). I guess my point is, there are BETTER food choices than pizza, nutritionally speaking. If I'm going to be a devout nutritionist and adhere strictly to a diet that is only good for me (no fluff), pizza wouldn't be on my list of things to eat.
I'd be eating only: fresh fruits and veggies (cooked as little as possible and with no additives), farm fresh dairy and eggs (from my own backyard, no chemicals, no hormones) or even no dairy at all (since dairy actually causes health problems like mucus build-up and inhibition of cell regineration), and only fresh baked bread (since bread loses it's vital nutrients after the third day prior to baking). Fish would be the only meat I could eat, and even then only sparingly (say, twice a week) since cholesterol comes from animal products (another reason to avoid dairy).
People live like this and are very healthy, with very little medical conditions.
But I wonder if it's healthy (or even sinful?) to adopt an ascetic view of food -- cause even that looks to self ("I must take care of myself and live longer) to fulfill some "higher" longing.
Didn't God give us food to enjoy? Otherwise, why would he make tastebuds? Are ALL acts of self indulgence sinful? That's what I'm wondering.
Just thinking out loud here because to me, gluttony has less to do with what we (physically) put into our bodies and more to do with our hearts. We can be gluttons for food, but we can also be gluttons for "health" -- and even money or nice cars. Gluttony is a sin.... but what exactly is "gluttony"?
: kalen Fri Feb 02, 2007 - 10:42:09
Phoebe allow me to ask you this: is it sinful to indulge in tasty food?
I love pizza. I love brownies. I love potato chips. These foods do not provide vital nutrients in any way; they're just "fluff" items that make my mouth happy.
Are you saying we should only eat to live? Meaning eat only a sparse diet, nothing that would satisfy us on an emotional or "taste" level?
I ask because, if I follow your words to their logical conclusion, that's where I wind up: a Puritanical way of looking at food.
Kalen - I can't answer all your questions because I don't know the answers.
God greated the Garden, and it was good. But that Garden was a whole different diet than the one we eat from now. Are you familiar with the Garden of Eden diet? Only fresh fruits and vegetables. ::headscratch::
Yes, one can be as obsessive about healthy eating as about unhealthy eating. "Obsessive" is the key. If one is watching what/how much they eat to keep healthy, that alone is not obsessive. When every word that proceeds out of one's mouth is about calories and transfats and working out at the gym, it
might be obsessive. It's personal, and requires honest introspection.
Do we allow our children a diet of junk foods, or do we encourage healthy eating habits? Do we expect more from our children than we expect from ourselves? Do we set a good example for them?
I eat chocolate because I LOVE it, and occasionally justify dark chocolate as being "good for me". I prefer milk chocolate. That's self-indulgence. Is it wrong? I don't know. I don't know that Mother Theresa self-indulged. I don't know that Jesus self-indulged. I find those to be good examples in whose footsteps I want to follow. I don't eat a steady diet of chocolate because it isn't good for me. If I did, if I ate chocolate obsessively, knowing it was unhealthy for me, I believe that would indicate that I was finding gratification in a source that was outside of God.
I believe one can obsess about studying Scripture to the point where the study satisfies, not God. Anything in excess, anything that controls, indicates a spiritual hole.
I believe one can participate in Christian forums to excess. What spiritual hole is that filling?
My body is God's Temple. I should never abuse it. Sometimes I do. I am a sinner saved by grace. If I consciously, continually choose to live in that sin, knowing that is not God's desire for my life, I must ask myself some hard questions, and be honest with my answers. I believe we attempt to justify what we know in our hearts to be wrong. And that is not just about food.
Food is not the the issue. It is the example. My relationship with God is the issue. I need to fill myself with so much of God that there is no room for overindulgences. To do that, I have to release "me", my desires, my wants. I have been saying it is a heart issue, but most gloss over that part and go straight o the examples of food.
I believe overindulging in good things and participating in bad things is an indication - a visible fruit - that something may be missing in one's relationship with God.
That's the best I can do. I don't think I can make my points any clearer. Thanks for asking for clarification.
I remember being at a church pot luck and watching an elder really put it away. He was obese. I remember someone saying something jokingly about taking care of God's temple and God's creation. He just laughed and said, "Well, you've got to die of something."
Just on a matter of principle, God created humans and gave us our bodies as gifts. We should not mistreat or destroy God's gift. The body was designed to glorify God and cannot do so if it is unhealthy. As phoebe said, it's not like people who are over weight don't know why. If eating a normal, healthy portion doesn't "fill them up" it's at least partly because their stomachs have been stretched by over eating. Just like an alcoholic who needs more and more to get his/her buzz.
Eating healthy portions takes discipline--no doubt. But that doesn't mean it's not possible and that it should be given pat answers by Christians. We are to do everything within our power to keep our bodies healthy. We are to "honor God with our bodies" (1 Corinthians 6:20).
: phoebe Fri Feb 02, 2007 - 10:08:50
: Nevertheless Fri Feb 02, 2007 - 00:16:53
When the men at the front of the line of 200+ at the potluck take 3 or 4 desserts piled on top of a heaping plate of food is it gluttony or just selfishness?
Same thing, Never.
That's what I was thinking.
So let's extend that thought. If gluttony is selfish eating, can one be a glutton without eating a whole lot? If there is one pie for 15 people and I eat a normal sized piece (1/8 of pie) am I being gluttonous? If that becomes my normal practice am I then a glutton?
If so, then gluttony is simply a subset of selfishness. Is it possible to be a glutton without being selfish?
: Nevertheless Fri Feb 02, 2007 - 12:58:34
: phoebe Fri Feb 02, 2007 - 10:08:50
: Nevertheless Fri Feb 02, 2007 - 00:16:53
When the men at the front of the line of 200+ at the potluck take 3 or 4 desserts piled on top of a heaping plate of food is it gluttony or just selfishness?
Same thing, Never.
That's what I was thinking.
So let's extend that thought. If gluttony is selfish eating, can one be a glutton without eating a whole lot? If there is one pie for 15 people and I eat a normal sized piece (1/8 of pie) am I being gluttonous? If that becomes my normal practice am I then a glutton?
Hmmm... I don't know. Are you? ::headscratch:: Has everyone, incl. yourself, had a sufficient meal? Do 15 people want a piece?
I know many women who will not serve themselves a portion
so that others may eat, among them my grandmothers and mother. It was courtesy, yes, but it was also biblical: consider others before yourself.
: Nevertheless Fri Feb 02, 2007 - 12:58:34
If so, then gluttony is simply a subset of selfishness. Is it possible to be a glutton without being selfish?
Possible? Maybe, unintentionally. Is ignorance an excuse? Don't know that, either. Like most things, I believe it is a matter of heart and motive and conscience. Once brought to one's attention, it is no longer unintentional, but a conscious decision to be selfish. Sounds like "sin" to me.
If we make it be gossip rather than overeating, we may gossip unintentionally, but when someone brings it to our attention that it IS gossip, we then choose which road to follow: to gossip, or not to gossip. We consider gossip sin, do we not?
********
Maybe this isn't common knowledge, but there are ambulances, life-line helicopters, hospital elevators, beds and other equipment that
cannot accomodate the ever-larger and larger bodies that are being brought in because of accidents and poor health. A young woman in her 30's died from a car accident last year because she was too large for the gurney and too large for the ambulance.
I would like to add that I believe if we have young children who are dependent on their parents, we are
obligated as caretakers of these little ones
who belong to God, to take good care of
ourselves so that we can take good care of
them. Why would we take on such an awesome rseponsibility if we were not committed to giving them our best?
We are supposed to love our own bodies. Take care of them. Present them as living sacrifices. It's about God, isn't it? Not how much I can eat or drink or smoke (or whatever the vice/idol may be) and get away with it? I guess I just don't get this excuse-making.
Who am I to say we overeat. I guess if folks want to eat themselves into diabetic comas or to heart attacks or strokes, they can have at it. Ultimately, it will be their families who suffer the consequences. (So, no Brian, compulsive overeating is not something one does to oneself. Compulsive overeating hurts others, too. Like the commercials for depression: Who does it hurt? Everyone.)
What about that guy on "Supersize Me"?
Not necessarily eating more in volume, but simply eating McGarbage for 30 days just to see what effect on his vitals. I think about the 3rd week he was not sure if he was going to live to tell.
I think it interesting how McDonald's unloads its trans fats once the media gets hold of its use. Why not before? These fa$t food places are more in tune to the bottom line than if you live a healthy productive life. ::frown::
...and another thing,
I see a lot of this 'my body is the temple'. If you refer to the context which this was said in 1 Cor you will find it has to do with sexual immorality, not having good cholesterol, or 6 pak abs.
: Lamb Fri Feb 02, 2007 - 16:45:55
...and another thing,
I see a lot of this 'my body is the temple'. If you refer to the context which this was said in 1 Cor you will find it has to do with sexual immorality, not having good cholesterol, or 6 pak abs.
I agree.
: Lamb Fri Feb 02, 2007 - 16:45:55
...and another thing,
I see a lot of this 'my body is the temple'. If you refer to the context which this was said in 1 Cor you will find it has to do with sexual immorality, not having good cholesterol, or 6 pak abs.
Yup.
: Lamb Fri Feb 02, 2007 - 16:39:29
I think it interesting how McDonald's unloads its trans fats once the media gets hold of its use. Why not before? These fa$t food places are more in tune to the bottom line than if you live a healthy productive life. ::frown::
Where did we get the idea that fast food places are
supposed to be making us more healthy? No one is forcing us to buy what they are selling. They respond to what their customers want. People are wanting to
think they are eating healthier, so they put salads and fruit cups on the menu. Nevermind that people are still buying the super sized fries and mega burgers, they
could have a salad.
Never forget that it is the duty of a business to make a profit. If it doesn't, it's gone, and so are the jobs and services it provides. It is Mc D's job to guard Mc D's bottom line and my job to guard my health. Let's not confuse the two.
Nevertheless said:
Where did we get the idea that fast food places are supposed to be making us more healthy? No one is forcing us to buy what they are selling. They respond to what their customers want. People are wanting to think they are eating healthier, so they put salads and fruit cups on the menu. Nevermind that people are still buying the super sized fries and mega burgers, they could have a salad.
Never forget that it is the duty of a business to make a profit. If it doesn't, it's gone, and so are the jobs and services it provides. It is Mc D's job to guard Mc D's bottom line and my job to guard my health. Let's not confuse the two.
Good post. People need to take responsibility for their own decisions and not seek a scape goat.
Yep. Good post, Never.
---------------
To the question about Spurlock on "Supersize Me", I highly recommend this article, which also goes to Never's point:
MSNBC: Woman says 'McDonald's diet' took off weight
Mother ate at restaurant chain for 90 days — and claims she lost 37 pounds (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8916080/)
I guess the tobacco company ought be taken off the hook as well. It makes no difference if your product is unhealthy.
: Lamb Sat Feb 03, 2007 - 08:03:57
I guess the tobacco company ought be taken off the hook as well. It makes no difference if your product is unhealthy.
They should be. People should know better than to smoke.
Gary, true that, but they got sued. Mainly because they were not honest in their revealing exactly how damaging their product was.
That is my whole point. I believe McDonalds executives knew what trans fats would do long before the public had fair knowledge. I don't believe the people at the top don't know what is in the product and why. just not buying it.
I understand our responsibility, but when a company does not reveal the good, bad, and ugly to the public when it is known then I call unethical business practice.
McDonald;s is of the devil. Pure at simple. Wake up folks!!!!
: Lamb Sat Feb 03, 2007 - 08:15:58
Gary, true that, but they got sued. Mainly because they were not honest in their revealing exactly how damaging their product was.
That is my whole point. I believe McDonalds executives knew what trans fats would do long before the public had fair knowledge. I don't believe the people at the top don't know what is in the product and why. just not buying it.
I understand our responsibility, but when a company does not reveal the good, bad, and ugly to the public when it is known then I call unethical business practice.
McDonald;s is of the devil. Pure at simple. Wake up folks!!!!
Sometimes the devil makes some good tasting food.
GARY!!!
DON'T EVEN! OPEN YOUR EYES BROTHER!
HAVE YOPU NOT SEEN THAT PURPLE BLOB (GRIMMACE)...PURPLE, LIKE THAT TELLY TUBBY THAT WAS PURPLE AND GAY? CAN'T YOU SEE THE OBVIOUS? GRIMMACE IS A BIG FAT PERVERT.
THEN YOU HAVE THE HAM BURGLERER. HA HA REAL CUTE TEACHING KIDS TO STEAL, HUH?
...AND A CLOWN,I.E. 'BUFOON' JUST TO TRICK KIDS INTO THINKING BEING GAY AND STEALING IS A BIG JOKE, YEAH, HA HA HA!
I'm going to go lay down. You people got me all worked up.
: Lamb Sat Feb 03, 2007 - 08:27:53
GARY!!!
DON'T EVEN! OPEN YOUR EYES BROTHER!
HAVE YOPU NOT SEEN THAT PURPLE BLOB (GRIMMACE)...PURPLE, LIKE THAT TELLY TUBBY THAT WAS PURPLE AND GAY? CAN'T YOU SEE THE OBVIOUS? GRIMMACE IS A BIG FAT PERVERT.
THEN YOU HAVE THE HAM BURGLERER. HA HA REAL CUTE TEACHING KIDS TO STEAL, HUH?
...AND A CLOWN,I.E. 'BUFOON' JUST TO TRICK KIDS INTO THINKING BEING GAY AND STEALING IS A BIG JOKE, YEAH, HA HA HA!
I'm going to go lay down. You people got me all worked up.
I stopped most of my fast food eating, even while at work. Primarily because of cost. Trying to do the budget thing.
And my gastro system is thanking me.