Religion is a terrible thing, it causes men to focus on other things than Christ.
A religious person's main preoccupation is their religion or spirituality and how they might live a life pleasing to God. The gospel of Jesus Christ is of little to no interest to them. Jesus Christ is the only one that has ever lived a life pleasing to God. All others are sinners and are not capable of leading a life that is pleasing to God. The only way that a person can please God is by having faith in his son Jesus Christ. For a person to please God one must be able to keep all of the commandments and ordinances of God's Holy law, which is impossible for them to do because they are still in the flesh of Adam and are in a fallen condition. Total Christian sanctification does not take place in this life. We are sinners until the day that we die and are made complete when we are with Christ. Religion is basically man's belief and apparent absence of faith in the fact that God has already dealt with his sin problem in the person of Jesus Christ. Lack of faith in the work of Christ (which is the gospel) leaves him with a vacuum in his life that he fills with his religion that gives him the desire to deal with his own sin problem and to establish his own righteousness and spirituality as he sees fit. This is a pride problem that will send multitudes to hell.
Thomas Jefferson said, "I don't find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature. The greatest enemies of Jesus are the doctrines and creeds of the church. It would be more pardonable to believe in no God at all than to blasphemy him with the atrocious writings of the theologians. John Calvin was a malignant Spirit."
John Adams said, "Nowhere in the gospels do we find a precept for creeds, confessions, oaths, doctrines and a whole boat load of other foolish trumpery than we find Christianity encumbered with."
Abraham Lincoln said, "Christianity is not my religion. I can never give asset to the long complicated statements of Christian dogma."
Most Christian seminaries teach systematic theology. There is no system to the gospel. Systematic theology does not teach the life of Christ for the believer. This leaves a vacuum in the believer's life and doctrine that will cause them to try to fill this vacuum with their own lives and religion. Romans chapters 5 and 6 makes it clear that Christ was the new Adam and representative of the human race. All that Christ did was for us and in our name and on our behalf. We are saved by his life as well as his death.
One of the attributes of religion is pride. Religious people are proud and easily offended especially when someone says something negative about their religion, church affiliation, or denomination. Many religious people want salvation but they want it on their terms or conditions. the conditions are usually that God must accept their pious lives, their works, their rituals, or something that they do or have become. They reject God's way of salvation which is the gospel and go about to establish their own way. The scripture says, "Their is a way that seems right unto a man but it leads to death and destruction." Religion is the natural way, it's the way that seems right unto a man. Do good works, live a clean life and I will be accepted. If this is the way, then Christ lived and died in vain. There is only one way to be saved and accepted and that is by the gospel.
Every year there are numerous seminars on how to become a better Christian or how to live the higher victorious Christian life. These seminars try to teach how you can become a better Christian and have a better relationship with your wife, your children, others and God. They imply that the trouble is with the believer and his sin problem and they have the answers about what to do about it. The gospel is usually rejected and the sin problem is now the believer's problem and it is his responsibility to deal with it. This is a terrible burden to bear because it places one under the law. The teaching emphasizes that you must confess your sins more, you must read your Bible more, you must give more, you must be more committed, you must, you must, you must. The rules and instructions are endless. Sometimes they give you hundreds of pages and diagrams on how to be a more dedicated Christian. This doesn't really help with the sin problem but rather breeds more sin because the teaching is subjective and causes one to look to themselves for strength and direction.
The Pharisees that Jesus referred to as hypocrites, took the Ten Commandments and came up with over six hundred rules for holy living. Traditional Christianity does basically the same thing. It is called living by the letter of the law. The apostle Paul said, "Do you hear the law?" Do you understand what is required? To say that religion causes a person to be subjective may be a understatement. Satan loves this kind of subjective teaching it turns ones eyes away from Christ who is our righteousness and upon
themselves.
A favorite cliche among many evangelicals is..... "What is Christ doing in your life?" This doctrine is basically Roman Catholicism. My question is why would a sinless Christ want to live his life through a depraved sinner? Or perhaps you think that you have gotten the sin out and now you are righteous. The work of Christ is a finished work. To mix up or to confuse the work of Christ with the work of the Holy Spirit is heresy. Christ is present in the Holy Spirit but his work is a finished work. The work of the Spirit is ongoing in the life of the believer.
Elitism is promoted in many religious circles. Many times a pastor will relate to a congregation how he had a supernatural experience from God when he was called into the ministry, which was not really supernatural at all. It is very hard to refute someone that believes that they have had a supernatural experience from God. This sets the stage for elitism and the formation of a religious hierarchy within the congregation. This practice is very common in many congregations. The fundamental belief is that you must attain to a higher level of spirituality so that you will become more useful to the Lord and to the church like the pastor is. The apostle Paul referred to this type of teaching as being in bondage to the law.
There is no peace or rest in religion because you never know when you have done enough to be acceptable to God. Many times pastors will tell their congregations that the Lord cannot use them if they are not a fit vessel. How fit must you be? How often must you pray? How often must you confess your sins? How often must you go to church? How much good works must you do? There is no answer. What is acceptable? When have you pleased the Lord? You must strive for perfection, which is not attainable, or the Lord will not be pleased.
Religion is divisive and causes division. This is why there are more than 79 different religious denominations or branches of religion in the United States. Every religion has their own idea of how to believe which is usually a law based theology and not based on the historical gospel of Jesus Christ. the gospel unites and puts us all in the same boat. In the gospel we are all sinners that are trusting in Christ to save us. In religion there are the elite that think that they are better than others or have attained into something.
The Gospel that Saves
There is no religion in the gospel. the gospel is about Jesus Christ, his work, his attainment, his perfect life, his victory over sin, his crucifixion. The gospel is about God revealing himself to man in the person of Jesus Christ. The gospel is about how God in the person of Jesus Christ clothed himself in human flesh and became one with us, but not one of us.
The old Adam brings sin and death. The new Adam brings righteousness and eternal life. The old Adam breaks God's Holy Law. The new Adam restores and fulfills it. The gospel is about how God embraced our humanity and took it to the cross and put it to death. Paul said, "I have been crucified with Christ nevertheless I live." In Jesus Christ we have been justified, sanctified and redeemed. 1st Corinthians 1:30. All that Jesus Christ is, and all that he has done, is ours by faith alone.
Religious practices and scripturally obedient servanthood certainly clash. That part is accurate.
I find myself agreeing with you and nodding my head through your article, but you oversimplify a Christians life. Please answer these two questions to help me understand your stance:
Why is Romans 16 chapters long if things were so simple?
Why is lawlessness brought up so many times in the New Testament?
Hebrew 5
7During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.
as long as you are obeying christ you are saved=everything he says in the bible, all of it
Having been raised Catholic, I agree with you on the dogma, ceremony, extra rules, etc. having Catholic mass falling out of favor with me due to those was only part of it, the fact that there really was no fellowship, not really, to me was the main element that I felt was lacking.
Some years later, I went to several protestant services and found the Baptists to have the better service since there was less ceremony. We had a little fellowship, such as bible study which was good.
The key element, such as the main reason we are here, is to be around others that think the same way. I've spent a great deal too long going at it alone, and the world does tend to wear on your faith if that is all you are facing. I also think you mentioned how the first century churches were better and closer to what was meant to be.
: dawngordon Sat Jan 26, 2008 - 18:35:10
Hebrew 5
7During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.
as long as you are obeying christ you are saved=everything he says in the bible, all of it
You see this is the other extreme....Dawn, you make it sound as if being perfect in Christ is the only way....that's the point, we strive to "live in the spirit" by walking as Christ walked but at the end of the day we must realize that we are wretched sinners who sin by purpose and without EVEN TRYING TO SIN!!!! At the end of the day....he is our salvation and cleanses us from all unrighteosness. Repentance does not mean perfection, only Christ=perfection.
dawngordon
We are not saved by our obedience, we are saved by his obedience. You have it backwards.
Rev3:15-19
The Christian life is a life of faith, whatever comes out of it is to God's glory.
The reason the book of Romans is so long is because salvation by grace through faith alone is not compatible with human nature.
john1:1
The less ritual in a church the better. You will probably find more fellowship in a small group of believers.
Robert, this is a very good OP. It looks like we see religion in the same way.
The religious mind is what crucified Jesus and has always persecuted the children of God.
RichardBurger
I didn't say near enough. I left out a large portion about Phariseeism. Yes we are of like Spirit.
: Robert Pate Sat Jan 26, 2008 - 17:28:10
Religion is a terrible thing, it causes men to focus on other things than Christ.
A religious person's main preoccupation is their religion or spirituality and how they might live a life pleasing to God. The gospel of Jesus Christ is of little to no interest to them. Jesus Christ is the only one that has ever lived a life pleasing to God. All others are sinners and are not capable of leading a life that is pleasing to God. The only way that a person can please God is by having faith in his son Jesus Christ. For a person to please God one must be able to keep all of the commandments and ordinances of God's Holy law, which is impossible for them to do because they are still in the flesh of Adam and are in a fallen condition. Total Christian sanctification does not take place in this life. We are sinners until the day that we die and are made complete when we are with Christ. Religion is basically man's belief and apparent absence of faith in the fact that God has already dealt with his sin problem in the person of Jesus Christ. Lack of faith in the work of Christ (which is the gospel) leaves him with a vacuum in his life that he fills with his religion that gives him the desire to deal with his own sin problem and to establish his own righteousness and spirituality as he sees fit. This is a pride problem that will send multitudes to hell.
Thomas Jefferson said, "I don't find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature. The greatest enemies of Jesus are the doctrines and creeds of the church. It would be more pardonable to believe in no God at all than to blasphemy him with the atrocious writings of the theologians. John Calvin was a malignant Spirit."
John Adams said, "Nowhere in the gospels do we find a precept for creeds, confessions, oaths, doctrines and a whole boat load of other foolish trumpery than we find Christianity encumbered with."
Abraham Lincoln said, "Christianity is not my religion. I can never give asset to the long complicated statements of Christian dogma."
Most Christian seminaries teach systematic theology. There is no system to the gospel. Systematic theology does not teach the life of Christ for the believer. This leaves a vacuum in the believer's life and doctrine that will cause them to try to fill this vacuum with their own lives and religion. Romans chapters 5 and 6 makes it clear that Christ was the new Adam and representative of the human race. All that Christ did was for us and in our name and on our behalf. We are saved by his life as well as his death.
One of the attributes of religion is pride. Religious people are proud and easily offended especially when someone says something negative about their religion, church affiliation, or denomination. Many religious people want salvation but they want it on their terms or conditions. the conditions are usually that God must accept their pious lives, their works, their rituals, or something that they do or have become. They reject God's way of salvation which is the gospel and go about to establish their own way. The scripture says, "Their is a way that seems right unto a man but it leads to death and destruction." Religion is the natural way, it's the way that seems right unto a man. Do good works, live a clean life and I will be accepted. If this is the way, then Christ lived and died in vain. There is only one way to be saved and accepted and that is by the gospel.
Every year there are numerous seminars on how to become a better Christian or how to live the higher victorious Christian life. These seminars try to teach how you can become a better Christian and have a better relationship with your wife, your children, others and God. They imply that the trouble is with the believer and his sin problem and they have the answers about what to do about it. The gospel is usually rejected and the sin problem is now the believer's problem and it is his responsibility to deal with it. This is a terrible burden to bear because it places one under the law. The teaching emphasizes that you must confess your sins more, you must read your Bible more, you must give more, you must be more committed, you must, you must, you must. The rules and instructions are endless. Sometimes they give you hundreds of pages and diagrams on how to be a more dedicated Christian. This doesn't really help with the sin problem but rather breeds more sin because the teaching is subjective and causes one to look to themselves for strength and direction.
The Pharisees that Jesus referred to as hypocrites, took the Ten Commandments and came up with over six hundred rules for holy living. Traditional Christianity does basically the same thing. It is called living by the letter of the law. The apostle Paul said, "Do you hear the law?" Do you understand what is required? To say that religion causes a person to be subjective may be a understatement. Satan loves this kind of subjective teaching it turns ones eyes away from Christ who is our righteousness and upon
themselves.
A favorite cliche among many evangelicals is..... "What is Christ doing in your life?" This doctrine is basically Roman Catholicism. My question is why would a sinless Christ want to live his life through a depraved sinner? Or perhaps you think that you have gotten the sin out and now you are righteous. The work of Christ is a finished work. To mix up or to confuse the work of Christ with the work of the Holy Spirit is heresy. Christ is present in the Holy Spirit but his work is a finished work. The work of the Spirit is ongoing in the life of the believer.
Elitism is promoted in many religious circles. Many times a pastor will relate to a congregation how he had a supernatural experience from God when he was called into the ministry, which was not really supernatural at all. It is very hard to refute someone that believes that they have had a supernatural experience from God. This sets the stage for elitism and the formation of a religious hierarchy within the congregation. This practice is very common in many congregations. The fundamental belief is that you must attain to a higher level of spirituality so that you will become more useful to the Lord and to the church like the pastor is. The apostle Paul referred to this type of teaching as being in bondage to the law.
There is no peace or rest in religion because you never know when you have done enough to be acceptable to God. Many times pastors will tell their congregations that the Lord cannot use them if they are not a fit vessel. How fit must you be? How often must you pray? How often must you confess your sins? How often must you go to church? How much good works must you do? There is no answer. What is acceptable? When have you pleased the Lord? You must strive for perfection, which is not attainable, or the Lord will not be pleased.
Religion is divisive and causes division. This is why there are more than 79 different religious denominations or branches of religion in the United States. Every religion has their own idea of how to believe which is usually a law based theology and not based on the historical gospel of Jesus Christ. the gospel unites and puts us all in the same boat. In the gospel we are all sinners that are trusting in Christ to save us. In religion there are the elite that think that they are better than others or have attained into something.
The Gospel that Saves
There is no religion in the gospel. the gospel is about Jesus Christ, his work, his attainment, his perfect life, his victory over sin, his crucifixion. The gospel is about God revealing himself to man in the person of Jesus Christ. The gospel is about how God in the person of Jesus Christ clothed himself in human flesh and became one with us, but not one of us.
The old Adam brings sin and death. The new Adam brings righteousness and eternal life. The old Adam breaks God's Holy Law. The new Adam restores and fulfills it. The gospel is about how God embraced our humanity and took it to the cross and put it to death. Paul said, "I have been crucified with Christ nevertheless I live." In Jesus Christ we have been justified, sanctified and redeemed. 1st Corinthians 1:30. All that Jesus Christ is, and all that he has done, is ours by faith alone.
And thus the Robert Religion and denomination, by definition you make yourself a religion. You have rules that must be followed.
FTL
Harold
Yes, there are rules to follow for salvation here they are. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
: Robert Pate Sat Jan 26, 2008 - 20:17:36
john1:1
The less ritual in a church the better. You will probably find more fellowship in a small group of believers.
Robert,
What size group of believers do you fellowship with?
Religion
Knowing the word but not knowing the word
: Robert Pate Mon Jan 28, 2008 - 17:47:41
Harold
Yes, there are rules to follow for salvation here they are. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
Believe what?
FTL
Charles Sloan
Many of the people that I fellowshipped with are deceased. I have trouble finding men that use the "Historical Gospel" as a basis for their interpretation of the Bible. The ones that I fellowship with now are scattered all over the world.
: Robert Pate Mon Jan 28, 2008 - 22:11:42
Charles Sloan
Many of the people that I fellowshipped with are deceased. I have trouble finding men that use the "Historical Gospel" as a basis for their interpretation of the Bible. The ones that I fellowship with now are scattered all over the world.
Then let them all join here, also, I'm sure, there will be many new members that want to join yoiur group....
: Robert Pate Mon Jan 28, 2008 - 22:11:42
Charles Sloan
Many of the people that I fellowshipped with are deceased. I have trouble finding men that use the "Historical Gospel" as a basis for their interpretation of the Bible. The ones that I fellowship with now are scattered all over the world.
I feel that your difficulty may not be because of
their interpretation of the Bible, but maybe the bases you hold because of
your interpretation. But I take from your comment that since your fellowship consists of people "scattered all over the world", that you are considering internet correspondence like this equivalent to true fellowship and assembly. Or at very least a surrogate.
I would encourage you to find a fellowship you can get along with despite your petty differences and submit to an eldership as every Christian is called to do. There is a reason that the Spirit makes overseers, and that is because the flock needs to be overseen. Satan takes great delight in singling out the weakest of the flock and isolating them. And if you are alone and not with a fellowship Robert there is no reason to convince yourself of otherwise, you are weak and isolated from the flock. And its only a matter of time.
James and I were talking about inviting you to attend a VCY Rally (http://vcyamerica.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15&Itemid=34) with us in February. Since you live in our area, I think it would do you some good. Think about it and let us know.
Many just don't get it. A Child of God is never alone. God is with him/her all the time. If you think that because you go to a church building where others congregate, go to a picnic with a group of people, you are closer to God you are miss-taken.
I think it is arrogance to call what someone else believes "petty."
Perhaps some think that the individual child of God is brain dead and must have those who think they know it all rule over them. They seem to think Jesus was telling a lie when He say we have just one teacher. But it is the nature of man to want to control others.
I, for one, have had my fill of those that think they are closer to God than others because of what they do. A forum is SUPPOSED to be a place where people can express their ideas. But is seems that many don't really want others to do that. God help the man that has an idea that they don't have. What these people don't understand is that they drive many from expressing their ideas on forums and make them lakes of Piranha
: Charles Sloan Mon Jan 28, 2008 - 22:54:03
: Robert Pate Mon Jan 28, 2008 - 22:11:42
Charles Sloan
Many of the people that I fellowshipped with are deceased. I have trouble finding men that use the "Historical Gospel" as a basis for their interpretation of the Bible. The ones that I fellowship with now are scattered all over the world.
I feel that your difficulty may not be because of their interpretation of the Bible, but maybe the bases you hold because of your interpretation. But I take from your comment that since your fellowship consists of people "scattered all over the world", that you are considering internet correspondence like this equivalent to true fellowship and assembly. Or at very least a surrogate.
I would encourage you to find a fellowship you can get along with despite your petty differences and submit to an eldership as every Christian is called to do. There is a reason that the Spirit makes overseers, and that is because the flock needs to be overseen. Satan takes great delight in singling out the weakest of the flock and isolating them. And if you are alone and not with a fellowship Robert there is no reason to convince yourself of otherwise, you are weak and isolated from the flock. And its only a matter of time.
James and I were talking about inviting you to attend a VCY Rally (http://vcyamerica.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15&Itemid=34) with us in February. Since you live in our area, I think it would do you some good. Think about it and let us know.
Do you think you are the one to teach Robert? Do you think you are Roberts elder? Do you think you are Roberts overseer. Who made you, or anyone else, Robert's teacher, elder, overseer?
I think you would do well to to just discuss the issues and not Robert. You have just as many faults as he does.
: John 1:1 Mon Jan 28, 2008 - 22:15:06
: Robert Pate Mon Jan 28, 2008 - 22:11:42
Charles Sloan
Many of the people that I fellowshipped with are deceased. I have trouble finding men that use the "Historical Gospel" as a basis for their interpretation of the Bible. The ones that I fellowship with now are scattered all over the world.
Then let them all join here, also, I'm sure, there will be many new members that want to join yoiur group....
I am sure Robert feels the same as I do. It would be wonderful to have the people I know join in on this forum. They could then see all the things that are said about me by people that disagree with me and the words they use as put downs to discribe me.
: RichardBurger Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 08:12:06If you think that because you go to a church building where others congregate, go to a picnic with a group of people, you are closer to God you are miss-taken.
Rich,
Where do you see that idea in my post. I never said anything about going to church makes anyone closer to God. You seem to have a habit of shoving words into peoples mouths and building strawmen just so you have something to attack.
: RichardBurger Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 08:12:06I think it is arrogance to call what someone else believes "petty."
I said their differences are petty, and all divisions in the Body of Christ are nothing but petty carnality. If you don't believe me, go read 1Corinthians 3:3.
: RichardBurger Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 08:12:06Perhaps some think that the individual child of God is brain dead and must have those who think they know it all rule over them. They seem to think Jesus was telling a lie when He say we have just one teacher. But it is the nature of man to want to control others.
Perhaps there are those like you who think they don't have to submit to overseers or other people in the Body of Christ because no one could possibly know more about the Bible than you. But contrary to your beliefs of just having one teacher, the Holy Spirit makes pastors, deacons, teachers and evangelists. And that same Spirit bade you to submit to them for they watch for your soul. So you don't kick against me Rich, you kick against the Lord.
: RichardBurger Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 08:12:06I, for one, have had my fill of those that think they are closer to God than others because of what they do.
What I have had my fill of is you and your posse turning every exhortation, every encouragement, every passage of God inspired Scripture and twisting it into works based salvation. You wrest everything said on this forum and turn it into a strawman so you can look like you know something about theology. I'll tell you what I'm sick of, and I'm certain I'm not alone; I'm sick of the constant regurgitation of antinomian mantra and your preaching of grace turned licence.
You are an antinomian schismatist.
Charles Sloan
Thanks for the invitation, but it looks like a meeting of people who go to the organized church. I don't believe in denominationalism, neither did Paul. Biggest problem with organized religion is that they have all been to the same seminary, unfortunately they didn't get the truth there. They have all been taught systematic theology, systematic theology does not teach the life of Christ for the believer. You see I believe that Christ lived a life of perfect obedience for me. I believe that life was my life. I believe that when Christ came into the world, I came into the world with him, he is my new humanity.
: RichardBurger Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 08:19:13
Do you think you are the one to teach Robert? Do you think you are Roberts elder? Do you think you are Roberts overseer. Who made you, or anyone else, Robert's teacher, elder, overseer?
Rich,
I don't believe you will find that I offered or assumed the responsibility to teach, or oversee Robert in my post. But if anyone has been made an overseer over Roberts soul, they would have been made that by God. If you don't believe that God makes overseers, please read Acts 20:28.
: RichardBurger Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 08:19:13
I think you would do well to to just discuss the issues and not Robert.
I think that since we are discussing Roberts beliefs, we are infact discussing Robert. And since Rob volunteered this information, I don't believe he needs you to make a defense for him or to protect him from what he publicly admits. I'm sure Robert is an adult, and can answer for himself.
: RichardBurger Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 08:19:13You have just as many faults as he does.
Indeed, maybe more. But the issue isn't a question of faults or me pointing my finger at him, throwing stones, or saying I'm better than him. I am encouraging him to go to church, is that a crime to you?
: Robert Pate Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 09:57:56
Charles Sloan
Thanks for the invitation, but it looks like a meeting of people who go to the organized church. I don't believe in denominationalism, neither did Paul. Biggest problem with organized religion is that they have all been to the same seminary, unfortunately they didn't get the truth there. They have all been taught systematic theology, systematic theology does not teach the life of Christ for the believer. You see I believe that Christ lived a life of perfect obedience for me. I believe that life was my life. I believe that when Christ came into the world, I came into the world with him, he is my new humanity.
Rob,
Don't judge them before you meet them. I'm sure you will enjoy the Rally, and find that the speaker there (Paul Washer) is practically a modern day prophet of a preacher. Its not about denominationalism, which is something we agree on completely.
Just think about it.
: Charles Sloan Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 10:05:07
: RichardBurger Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 08:19:13
Do you think you are the one to teach Robert? Do you think you are Roberts elder? Do you think you are Roberts overseer. Who made you, or anyone else, Robert's teacher, elder, overseer?
Rich,
I don't believe you will find that I offered or assumed the responsibility to teach, or oversee Robert in my post. But if anyone has been made an overseer over Roberts soul, that would have been made that by God. If you don't believe that God makes overseers, please read Acts 20:28.
: RichardBurger Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 08:19:13
I think you would do well to to just discuss the issues and not Robert.
I think that since we are discussing Roberts beliefs, we are infact discussing Robert. And since Rob volunteered this information, I don't believe he needs you to make a defense for him or to protect him from what he publicly admits. I'm sure Robert is an adult, and can answer for himself.
: RichardBurger Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 08:19:13You have just as many faults as he does.
Indeed, maybe more. But the issue isn't a question of faults or me pointing my finger at him, throwing stones, or saying I'm better than him. I am encouraging him to go to church, is that a crime to you?
So that is your rational, discussing what one believes and posts in a discussion opens them up to criticism about their, behavior in his/their activities in life, which, in reality, is none of your business. That means that anyone who posts on this forum opens himself or herself up to personal criticism. How wonderfully Christian on the part of those that do it!
According to the scriptures, Jesus said His sheep hear His voice and the voice of another they will not follow. I hear His voice speaking to me in the scriptures and the voices of men, in the most part, speak lies. The Holy Spirit teaches me the difference. My faith is in the ability of the Holy Spirit to teach me. But men place their faith in other men who make false claims about themselves in order to teach them their belief.
The RCC has set itself up as an entity between man and God. The RCC is supposed to be THE CHURCH. --- I will not be ruled by those that persecuted, and had killed, the people that had different views than they did, that had the reformers burned at the stake because they saw that the RCC was not correct according to the scriptures, a church that killed men because they put the Bible in print. If people want to believe what the RCC says that is their personal business. Nor will I follow Calvin's teachings since he had Catholics and the Anabaptists burned at the stake. Nor will I follow those on this forum who feel it necessary to criticize others.
: RichardBurger Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 11:37:46
So that is your rational, discussing what one believes and posts in a discussion opens them up to criticism about their, behavior in his/their activities in life, which, in reality, is none of your business. That means that anyone who posts on this forum opens himself or herself up to personal criticism. How wonderfully Christian on the part of those that do it!
Richard,
I fairly asked him if he went to church and he admitted he doesn't. That was an open confession, and I responded to that confession. I am not scrutinizing his life, activities, or behaviors other than what he openly admitted too. If you have a problem with Robert honestly answering my question, or me responding to his answer; maybe the problem lies with you.
: RichardBurger Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 11:37:46
According to the scriptures, Jesus said His sheep hear His voice and the voice of another they will not follow. I hear His voice speaking to me in the scriptures and the voices of men, in the most part, speak lies. The Holy Spirit teaches me the difference. My faith is in the ability of the Holy Spirit to teach me. But men place their faith in other men who make false claims about themselves in order to teach them their belief.
I agree that the Spirit will give use discernment, but doesn't mean that everyones a liar and we should hide in the corner and read our Bible. There are genuine, sincere teachers out there who are trying to raise up men to live godly lives. God is using them to reveal the truth of the Scriptures and to feed the sheep of the flock. This is the reason the Bible constantly exhorts use to assemble with other Christians and not to forsake the assembly.
If you think you don't need the fold or a shepherd, then you are the one mistaken.
: RichardBurger Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 11:37:46
The RCC has set itself up as an entity between man and God. The RCC is supposed to be THE CHURCH. --- I will not be ruled by those that persecuted, and had killed, the people that had different views than they did, that had the reformers burned at the stake because they saw that the RCC was not correct according to the scriptures, a church that killed men because they put the Bible in print. If people want to believe what the RCC says that is their personal business. Nor will I follow Calvin's teachings since he had Catholics and the Anabaptists burned at the stake. Nor will I follow those on this forum who feel it necessary to criticize others.
Back to the scarecrow and his wonderful song (http://www.reelclassics.com/Audio_Video/Music7q/clips/wizoz_bolger_onlyhadabrain_clip.mp3).
I am not apart of the RCC, and your attempt to characterize me like them is just plain stupid. I would have expected more of an sound argument from you than just the wild and flagrant attack of depicting me as an Inquisitor. I simply attempted to use this as an opportunity to invite Robert to come to a VCY Rally, and encourage him to go back to church and you in turn are comparing me to a group that persecutes, kills, and otherwise burns people at the stake. Yeah, real accurate depiction there Rich.
Are you so enraged about my comments to Robert because you don't attend church either?
: Charles Sloan Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 12:17:15
: RichardBurger Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 11:37:46
So that is your rational, discussing what one believes and posts in a discussion opens them up to criticism about their, behavior in his/their activities in life, which, in reality, is none of your business. That means that anyone who posts on this forum opens himself or herself up to personal criticism. How wonderfully Christian on the part of those that do it!
Richard,
I fairly asked him if he went to church and he admitted he doesn't. That was an open confession, and I responded to that confession. I am not scrutinizing his life, activities, or behaviors other than what he openly admitted too. If you have a problem with Robert honestly answering my question, or me responding to his answer; maybe the problem lies with you.
: RichardBurger Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 11:37:46
According to the scriptures, Jesus said His sheep hear His voice and the voice of another they will not follow. I hear His voice speaking to me in the scriptures and the voices of men, in the most part, speak lies. The Holy Spirit teaches me the difference. My faith is in the ability of the Holy Spirit to teach me. But men place their faith in other men who make false claims about themselves in order to teach them their belief.
I agree that the Spirit will give use discernment, but doesn't mean that everyones a liar and we should hide in the corner and read our Bible. There are genuine, sincere teachers out there who are trying to raise up men to live godly lives. God is using them to reveal the truth of the Scriptures and to feed the sheep of the flock. This is the reason the Bible constantly exhorts use to assemble with other Christians and not to forsake the assembly.
If you think you don't need the fold or a shepherd, then you are the one mistaken.
: RichardBurger Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 11:37:46
The RCC has set itself up as an entity between man and God. The RCC is supposed to be THE CHURCH. --- I will not be ruled by those that persecuted, and had killed, the people that had different views than they did, that had the reformers burned at the stake because they saw that the RCC was not correct according to the scriptures, a church that killed men because they put the Bible in print. If people want to believe what the RCC says that is their personal business. Nor will I follow Calvin's teachings since he had Catholics and the Anabaptists burned at the stake. Nor will I follow those on this forum who feel it necessary to criticize others.
Back to the scarecrow and his wonderful song (http://www.reelclassics.com/Audio_Video/Music7q/clips/wizoz_bolger_onlyhadabrain_clip.mp3).
I am not apart of the RCC, and your attempt to characterize me like them is just plain stupid. I would have expected more of an sound argument from you than just the wild and flagrant attack of depicting me as an Inquisitor. I simply attempted to use this as an opportunity to invite Robert to come to a VCY Rally, and encourage him to go back to church and you in turn are comparing me to a group that persecutes, kills, and otherwise burns people at the stake. Yeah, real accurate depiction there Rich.
Are you so enraged about my comments to Robert because you don't attend church either?
I am enraged that you think what you believe and do is not petty but Robert's is.
You said to Robert, "I would encourage you to find a fellowship you can get along with ****despite your petty differences**** and submit to an eldership as every Christian is called to do. There is a reason that the Spirit makes overseers, and that is because the flock needs to be overseen. Satan takes great delight in singling out the weakest of the flock and isolating them. And if you are alone and not with a fellowship Robert there is no reason to convince yourself of otherwise, you are weak and isolated from the flock. And its only a matter of time."
You called Robert's differences "PETTY."
Tell me, since you believe in overseers, **who oversees the overseers?** If you say the Holy Spirit then why can't the Holy Spirit oversee each individual? Is He limited as to power? You fail to see that the Holy Spirit is the one that oversees the children of God. You seem to think that is man's job and I disagree.
Before the Holy Spirit was given men needed men of God to explain the words of God. But now the Children of God have the Holy Spirit to guide them.
Message: Who do you trust?
I do not have faith (trust) in the scripture understanding of other men, or in organized religions, for my salvation. Nor do I put my trust in my own understanding of scriptures for my salvation. I place my trust in Jesus who is alive and sits at the right hand of God. I am saved by God's grace through what Jesus did for me on the cross. I claim nothing else. Let me also say that trusting in religion(s) will not save anyone either. There is a big difference between trusting in God and trusting in a religion that men say God left us with. A religion is NOT God.
John 5:39-40 (NIV)
39 You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me,
40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
You must, personally, go to Him in your heart.
Prov 3:5-7 (NKJ)
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding;
6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your paths.
7 Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear the LORD and depart from evil.
"""" and He shall direct your paths """"
Read below to see some of all the things Jesus promises to those "INDIVIDUALS" that "PERSONALLY" trust in Him.
Ps 118:5-9 (NIV)
5 In my anguish I cried to the LORD, and he answered by setting me free.
6 The LORD is with me; I will not be afraid. What can man do to me?
7 The LORD is with me; he is my helper. I will look in triumph on my enemies.
8 It is better to take refuge in the LORD than to trust in man.
9 It is better to take refuge in the LORD than to trust in princes.
""""" It is better to take refuge in the LORD than to trust in man """"
Ps 9:10 (NIV)
10 Those who know your name will trust in you, for you, LORD, have never forsaken those who seek you.
Ps 13:5 (NIV)
5 But I trust in your unfailing love; my heart rejoices in your salvation.
Ps 20:7 (NIV)
7 Some trust in chariots and some in horses, but we trust in the name of the LORD our God.
Ps 31:6 (NIV)
6 I hate those who cling to worthless idols; I trust in the LORD.
Ps 31:14 (NIV)
14 But I trust in you, O LORD; I say, "You are my God."
Ps 33:20-22 (NIV)
20 We wait in hope for the LORD; he is our help and our shield.
21 In him our hearts rejoice, for we trust in his holy name.
22 May your unfailing love rest upon us, O LORD, even as we put our hope in you.
Ps 40:3-4 (NIV)
3 He put a new song in my mouth, a hymn of praise to our God. Many will see and fear and put their trust in the LORD.
4 Blessed is the man who makes the LORD his trust, who does not look to the proud, to those who turn aside to false gods.
Ps 49:12-13 (NIV)
12 But man, despite his riches, does not endure; he is like the beasts that perish.
13 This is the fate of those who trust in themselves, and of their followers, who approve their sayings. Selah
Ps 52:8 (NIV)
8 But I am like an olive tree flourishing in the house of God; I trust in God's unfailing love for ever and ever.
Ps 55:23 (NIV)
23 But you, O God, will bring down the wicked into the pit of corruption; bloodthirsty and deceitful men will not live out half their days. But as for me, I trust in you.
Ps 56:3-4 (NIV)
3 When I am afraid, I will trust in you.
4 In God, whose word I praise, in God I trust; I will not be afraid. What can mortal man do to me?
Ps 62:7-8 (NIV)
7 My salvation and my honor depend on God; he is my mighty rock, my refuge.
8 Trust in him at all times, O people; pour out your hearts to him, for God is our refuge. Selah
Ps 119:41-42 (NIV)
41 May your unfailing love come to me, O LORD, your salvation according to your promise;
42 then I will answer the one who taunts me, for I trust in your word.
Ps 125:1 (NIV)
1 Those who trust in the LORD are like Mount Zion, which cannot be shaken but endures forever.
Ps 143:8-12 (NIV)
8 Let the morning bring me word of your unfailing love, for I have put my trust in you. Show me the way I should go, for to you I lift up my soul.
9 Rescue me from my enemies, O LORD, for I hide myself in you.
10 Teach me to do your will, for you are my God; may your good Spirit lead me on level ground.
11 For your name's sake, O LORD, preserve my life; in your righteousness, bring me out of trouble.
12 In your unfailing love, silence my enemies; destroy all my foes, for I am your servant.
Prov 3:3-7 (NIV)
3 Let love and faithfulness never leave you; bind them around your neck, write them on the tablet of your heart.
4 Then you will win favor and a good name in the sight of God and man.
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight.
7 Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear the LORD and shun evil.
Jer 39:18 (NIV)
18 I will save you; you will not fall by the sword but will escape with your life, because you trust in me, declares the LORD.'"
Jer 48:7 (NIV)
7 Since you trust in your deeds and riches, you too will be taken captive, and Chemosh will go into exile, together with his priests and officials.
Nahum 1:7 (NIV)
7 The LORD is good, a refuge in times of trouble. He cares for those who trust in him,
John 14:1 (NIV)
1 "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.
Rom 15:13 (NIV)
13 May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Heb 2:11-13 (NIV)
11 Both the one who makes men holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers.
12 He says, "I will declare your name to my brothers; in the presence of the congregation I will sing your praises."
13 And again, "I will put my trust in him." And again he says, "Here am I, and the children God has given me."
Matt 10:32 (NIV)
32 "Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven.
Matt 11:25-28 (NIV)
25 At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
26 Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.
27 "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
28 "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.
In verse 25 above you will see that it is God that reveals the truth to His Children.
It is written;
Heb 11:6
6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. (NKJ)
There is nothing in Heb 11:6 about doing works for God.
: RichardBurger Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 12:38:04I am enraged that you think what you believe and do is not petty but Robert's is.
Richard,
I never said Robert's beliefs are petty, I said his differences are. This is the second time I've corrected you. I am not your father, neither are you my child; I am not going to repeat myself to your obstinacy on this point further.
Differences in the Body of Christ are petty if the are not something fundamentally wrong with doctrine. Just because someone doesn't believe a group, (or any group), teaches a "historical" Gospel doesn't seem like a issue with the group and seem more like a problem with the individual. But you are free to think what you want, my intrests are well placed and motives are his well being. I could seriously careless what you think at this point.
: RichardBurger Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 12:38:04Tell me, since you believe in overseers, **who oversees the overseers?** If you say the Holy Spirit then why can't the Holy Spirit oversee each individual? Is He limited as to power? You fail to see that the Holy Spirit is the one that oversees the children of God. You seem to think that is man's job and I disagree.
Duh.
God oversees the overseers. Since hes the one that makes them, it would only stand to reason that he oversees them. But I think if anyone here is failing to see something it is you, since you seem to be advocating a disbelief in overseers as if they are a myth or a false concept.
Why don't to expound your theological views on Acts 20:28, 1Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:5-10.
: RichardBurger Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 12:38:04
Before the Holy Spirit was given men needed men of God to explain the words of God. But now the Children of God have the Holy Spirit to guide them.
You must highlight your Bible with a black magic marker.
: Charles Sloan Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 12:59:54
: RichardBurger Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 12:38:04I am enraged that you think what you believe and do is not petty but Robert's is.
Richard,
I never said Robert's beliefs are petty, I said his differences are. This is the second time I've corrected you. I am not your father, neither are you my child; I am not going to repeat myself to your obstinacy on this point further.
Differences in the Body of Christ are petty if the are not something fundamentally wrong with doctrine. Just because someone doesn't believe a group, (or any group), teaches a "historical" Gospel doesn't seem like a issue with the group and seem more like a problem with the individual. But you are free to think what you want, my intrests are well placed and motives are his well being. I could seriously careless what you think at this point.
: RichardBurger Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 12:38:04Tell me, since you believe in overseers, **who oversees the overseers?** If you say the Holy Spirit then why can't the Holy Spirit oversee each individual? Is He limited as to power? You fail to see that the Holy Spirit is the one that oversees the children of God. You seem to think that is man's job and I disagree.
Duh.
God oversees the overseers. Since hes the one that makes them, it would only stand to reason that he oversees them. But I think if anyone here is failing to see something it is you, since you seem to be advocating a disbelief in overseers as if they are a myth or a false concept.
Why don't to expound your theological views on Acts 20:28, 1Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:5-10.
: RichardBurger Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 12:38:04
Before the Holy Spirit was given men needed men of God to explain the words of God. But now the Children of God have the Holy Spirit to guide them.
You must highlight your Bible with a black magic marker.
And this is the third time I am going to try and make you see what you are doing.
Can you really not see it??? And his differences are????? Isn't it what he believes???
So God can make overseers but cannot make individuals overseers. In the end you think God has made a system where men HAVE TO trust in men. I don't believe that.
My understanding is that the church of His body is made up of parts that the head directs and the head is Jesus Christ. -- When the hand starts directing the feet then Jesus is not in control.
: RichardBurger Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 13:48:30So God can make overseers but cannot make individuals overseers. In the end you think God has made a system where men HAVE TO trust in men. I don't believe that.
I am still waiting for your explanation of Acts 20:28, 1Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:5-10.
: RichardBurger Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 13:48:30My understanding is that the church of His body is made up of parts that the head directs and the head is Jesus Christ. -- When the hand starts directing the feet then Jesus is not in control.
Jesus is in control, but that doesn't mean that people aren't still called to shepherd (teach, exhort, admonish, watchover, etc.) the flock. But from what you are expressing, you are not really apart
of the body but are more apart
from the body. Especially since you characterize everyone as liars and deceivers that are called to teach and preach the word.
: Charles Sloan Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 13:57:00
: RichardBurger Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 13:48:30So God can make overseers but cannot make individuals overseers. In the end you think God has made a system where men HAVE TO trust in men. I don't believe that.
I am still waiting for your explanation of Acts 20:28, 1Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:5-10.
: RichardBurger Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 13:48:30My understanding is that the church of His body is made up of parts that the head directs and the head is Jesus Christ. -- When the hand starts directing the feet then Jesus is not in control.
Jesus is in control, but that doesn't mean that people aren't still called to shepherd (teach, exhort, admonish, watchover, etc.) the flock. But from what you are expressing, you are not really apart of the body but are more apart from the body. Especially since you characterize everyone as liars and deceivers that are called to teach and preach the word.
There are many on this forum that are teaching. But they are not saying they are the ones to rule over others. Of those teaching which ones are you going to see as overseers, as sheperds? -- Oh yes, of course, those that agree with you. -- You can't see me, or Robert, as people of God trying to teach the truth in Christ.
Sloan, the scriptures characterized everyone as liars when God said that all men are liars. But , of course I am wrong to say it. I posted the scriptures that tell us where to place our trust and they don't say it is to be in men. But you say it is in men. Sorry I will believe the scriptures.
You said "I am still waiting for your explanation of Acts 20:28, 1Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:5-10." --- Well don't hold your breath. If I went to the trouble you would not believe anything I said so why should I bother?
: RichardBurger Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 17:53:06There are many on this forum that are teaching. But they are not saying they are the ones to rule over others. Of those teaching which ones are you going to see as overseers, as sheperds? -- Oh yes, of course, those that agree with you. -- You can't see me, or Robert, as people of God trying to teach the truth in Christ.
I never said that anyone is to rule over anyone, thats just another of your scarecrows. Overseers are not people who rule the church, nor does the shepherd rule over the flock. The shepherd lovingly cares for the flock, and lies down his life for the flock. So your mischaracterization is telling of the weakness and lack of proof for your rejection of human eldership.
: RichardBurger Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 17:53:06Sloan, the scriptures characterized everyone as liars when God said that all men are liars. But , of course I am wrong to say it. I posted the scriptures that tell us where to place our trust and they don't say it is to be in men. But you say it is in men. Sorry I will believe the scriptures.
I agree that all men are liars, but that doesn't mean that all pastors are are liars and deceivers and therefore not to be trusted. See, you take everything ot an illogical end just to justify your argument. Neither did I ever say our trust was to be in men over God, please if I have show me. But this is another of your strawmen in the ranks of your scarecrow army that you use to hedge your arguments.
: RichardBurger Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 17:53:06You said "I am still waiting for your explanation of Acts 20:28, 1Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:5-10." --- Well don't hold your breath. If I went to the trouble you would not believe anything I said so why should I bother?
I won't be holding my breath because I know you can't explain it, the passages explain themselves.
Again I will pose the proposition that your disease with this topic, and my questions toward Robert is because you yourself don't go to church. And all you are doing is trying to quell your conviction by justifing yourself before men. But with all your dead horses and all your straw men you fail to prove why we shouldn't go to chuch over and over again.
: Charles Sloan Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 19:14:16
: RichardBurger Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 17:53:06There are many on this forum that are teaching. But they are not saying they are the ones to rule over others. Of those teaching which ones are you going to see as overseers, as sheperds? -- Oh yes, of course, those that agree with you. -- You can't see me, or Robert, as people of God trying to teach the truth in Christ.
I never said that anyone is to rule over anyone, thats just another of your scarecrows. Overseers are not people who rule the church, nor does the shepherd rule over the flock. The shepherd lovingly cares for the flock, and lies down his life for the flock. So your mischaracterization is telling of the weakness and lack of proof for your rejection of human eldership.
: RichardBurger Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 17:53:06Sloan, the scriptures characterized everyone as liars when God said that all men are liars. But , of course I am wrong to say it. I posted the scriptures that tell us where to place our trust and they don't say it is to be in men. But you say it is in men. Sorry I will believe the scriptures.
I agree that all men are liars, but that doesn't mean that all pastors are are liars and deceivers and therefore not to be trusted. See, you take everything ot an illogical end just to justify your argument. Neither did I ever say our trust was to be in men over God, please if I have show me. But this is another of your strawmen in the ranks of your scarecrow army that you use to hedge your arguments.
: RichardBurger Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 17:53:06You said "I am still waiting for your explanation of Acts 20:28, 1Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:5-10." --- Well don't hold your breath. If I went to the trouble you would not believe anything I said so why should I bother?
I won't be holding my breath because I know you can't explain it, the passages explain themselves.
Again I will pose the proposition that your disease with this topic, and my questions toward Robert is because you yourself don't go to church. And all you are doing is trying to quell your conviction by justifing yourself before men. But with all your dead horses and all your straw men you fail to prove why we shouldn't go to chuch over and over again.
You said; "I agree that all men are liars, but that doesn't mean that all pastors are are liars and deceivers and therefore not to be trusted."
The last part of your sentence makes the first part a lie when you put the word "BUT" in between them. But I bet you don't see that either.
Your "proposition" is just that "YOUR PROPOSITION." Frankly, you don't know what I do but you think you do. There is no need for me to justify myself before men. Men cannot save me or keep me from being saved. Nor does your proposition mean anything to me.
: RichardBurger Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 20:50:13You said; "I agree that all men are liars, but that doesn't mean that all pastors are are liars and deceivers and therefore not to be trusted."
The last part of your sentence makes the first part a lie when you put the word "BUT" in between them. But I bet you don't see that either.
What you don't see is when a man is born again he puts off the old man and his works (cf. Eph 4:22, Col 3:8-9), but since everthing that is admonishment to repent and live godly instantly becomes works based salvation to you all such verses fall on deaf ears. I bet my proposition is spot on though, and that would explain why you reject eldership, teachers, preachers, assembly, etc.
You should be honest and examine youself, and stop taking everything said to you like this as a challenge but as a loving but serious rebuke (Pro 27:5).
Jesus said, Beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils. and they will scourage you in their synagogues.
When I was going to church the deacons were always having meetings about what I was teaching. Sometimes two or three of them would pop into my class and sit there and listen to my teaching. I was never touched physically, but I was mentally abused. I never did last very long in any church.
: Robert Pate Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 22:20:04
Jesus said, Beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils. and they will scourage you in their synagogues.
When I was going to church the deacons were always having meetings about what I was teaching. Sometimes two or three of them would pop into my class and sit there and listen to my teaching. I was never touched physically, but I was mentally abused. I never did last very long in any church.
Robert,
I don't believe Jesus was warning us to beware of our Christian brothers...
Could it be possiable there was actually something wrong with your teachings? I mean if every church you visit has a problem with your teachings, wouldn't the common denominator be your doctrine?
: Charles Sloan Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 22:18:27
: RichardBurger Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 20:50:13You said; "I agree that all men are liars, but that doesn't mean that all pastors are are liars and deceivers and therefore not to be trusted."
The last part of your sentence makes the first part a lie when you put the word "BUT" in between them. But I bet you don't see that either.
What you don't see is when a man is born again he puts off the old man and his works (cf. Eph 4:22, Col 3:8-9), but since everthing that is admonishment to repent and live godly instantly becomes works based salvation to you all such verses fall on deaf ears. I bet my proposition is spot on though, and that would explain why you reject eldership, teachers, preachers, assembly, etc.
You should be honest and examine youself, and stop taking everything said to you like this as a challenge but as a loving but serious rebuke (Pro 27:5).
So I am to blindly follow men who CLAIM they are teachers, overseers, and Sheppard's. Just because they claim they are. And I am to tell others that they should listen to these teachers, overseers, and Sheppard's because God has placed them over us. --- And if they are not really God's teachers, overseers, and Shepard's, God will save me anyway because I yielded to them and told others to listen to them and many went to hell because of it.
That just doesn't make sense to me. The scriptures tell me that I will know the truth and the truth will make me free.
When Jesus came the religious leaders (teachers, overseers, and Sheppard's) were corrupt. Before Paul died many of his followers had left him and were teaching false doctrines and claiming that they were teachers, overseers, and Sheppard's.
My question to you is how do you know who your teachers, overseers, and Sheppard's are??? And do you listen to them blindly??
This is a serious question since it is you want me to see it as you do.
Richard I'm with you here on that level, this is an underlying theme everywhere today. It also still comes back to deregulating, scaling down to the early churches approach to it all, keeping things more informal and really getting to know one another that gather. The leader is typically going to be the most trusted out of the group because he has earned that trust with all of the members unanimously. When you walk into that group, even then and don't know anybody, that trust must be earned from them by you, and vice versa. It's the failure for that dialog to happen is where we feel rather stand offish about it all. We don't know if this leader is pounding down brews while he's driving a porche and beats orphaned kittens in his free time.
We have two types of leaders, one that simply want's to serve, to be of help and remain humble, typically put in place by others and being reluctant about the power and prestige it delivers, and others, that are simply there to impose their will over others, doing it for a carear choice, and in general, with a hidden agenda, none of which is for serving others. I suppose I can add a third which would take a little of both at the same time and those are the ones you really gotta look out for since they aren't so transparent.
I'll take the former any day, they exist, just are not going to be at the fanciest facilities, nor have a huge number of people following them around. Look for the underdog churches, you'll find them there.
: Charles Sloan Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 22:18:27
: RichardBurger Tue Jan 29, 2008 - 20:50:13You said; "I agree that all men are liars, but that doesn't mean that all pastors are are liars and deceivers and therefore not to be trusted."
The last part of your sentence makes the first part a lie when you put the word "BUT" in between them. But I bet you don't see that either.
What you don't see is when a man is born again he puts off the old man and his works (cf. Eph 4:22, Col 3:8-9), but since everthing that is admonishment to repent and live godly instantly becomes works based salvation to you all such verses fall on deaf ears. I bet my proposition is spot on though, and that would explain why you reject eldership, teachers, preachers, assembly, etc.
You should be honest and examine youself, and stop taking everything said to you like this as a challenge but as a loving but serious rebuke (Pro 27:5).
I have never said that a child of God will not WANT to stop sinning and want to do good works. Just as Paul did not WANT to sin and wante3d to do good in Romans 7. But a child of God will continue to sin while he lives in a body of sinful flesh.
The problem is that many seem to think they are not sinning anymore. They think their sinful flesh has changed and they do not sin any longer. These cannot accept the fact that they still sin. After all aren't they born again and haven't they put off the old man and his works like it says in Eph 4:22, and Col 3:8-9?
Now it is you that should be honest and tell us if you still sin just like the rest of us.
: John 1:1 Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 06:48:11
Richard I'm with you here on that level, this is an underlying theme everywhere today. It also still comes back to deregulating, scaling down to the early churches approach to it all, keeping things more informal and really getting to know one another that gather. The leader is typically going to be the most trusted out of the group because he has earned that trust with all of the members unanimously. When you walk into that group, even then and don't know anybody, that trust must be earned from them by you, and vice versa. It's the failure for that dialog to happen is where we feel rather stand offish about it all. We don't know if this leader is pounding down brews while he's driving a porche and beats orphaned kittens in his free time.
We have two types of leaders, one that simply want's to serve, to be of help and remain humble, typically put in place by others and being reluctant about the power and prestige it delivers, and others, that are simply there to impose their will over others, doing it for a carear choice, and in general, with a hidden agenda, none of which is for serving others. I suppose I can add a third which would take a little of both at the same time and those are the ones you really gotta look out for since they aren't so transparent.
I'll take the former any day, they exist, just are not going to be at the fanciest facilities, nor have a huge number of people following them around. Look for the underdog churches, you'll find them there.
Thanks for your input. I think you are right on. Those that would be teachers, overseers, and Sheppard's must earn that position from the children of God.
: RichardBurger Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 06:56:49
: John 1:1 Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 06:48:11
Richard I'm with you here on that level, this is an underlying theme everywhere today. It also still comes back to deregulating, scaling down to the early churches approach to it all, keeping things more informal and really getting to know one another that gather. The leader is typically going to be the most trusted out of the group because he has earned that trust with all of the members unanimously. When you walk into that group, even then and don't know anybody, that trust must be earned from them by you, and vice versa. It's the failure for that dialog to happen is where we feel rather stand offish about it all. We don't know if this leader is pounding down brews while he's driving a porche and beats orphaned kittens in his free time.
We have two types of leaders, one that simply want's to serve, to be of help and remain humble, typically put in place by others and being reluctant about the power and prestige it delivers, and others, that are simply there to impose their will over others, doing it for a carear choice, and in general, with a hidden agenda, none of which is for serving others. I suppose I can add a third which would take a little of both at the same time and those are the ones you really gotta look out for since they aren't so transparent.
I'll take the former any day, they exist, just are not going to be at the fanciest facilities, nor have a huge number of people following them around. Look for the underdog churches, you'll find them there.
Thanks for your input. I think you are right on. Those that would be teachers, overseers, and Sheppard's must earn that position from the children of God.
It's more like they are appointed by the flock, they don't strive for leadership, it's thrust upon them.
: John 1:1 Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 07:04:21
: RichardBurger Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 06:56:49
: John 1:1 Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 06:48:11
Richard I'm with you here on that level, this is an underlying theme everywhere today. It also still comes back to deregulating, scaling down to the early churches approach to it all, keeping things more informal and really getting to know one another that gather. The leader is typically going to be the most trusted out of the group because he has earned that trust with all of the members unanimously. When you walk into that group, even then and don't know anybody, that trust must be earned from them by you, and vice versa. It's the failure for that dialog to happen is where we feel rather stand offish about it all. We don't know if this leader is pounding down brews while he's driving a porche and beats orphaned kittens in his free time.
We have two types of leaders, one that simply want's to serve, to be of help and remain humble, typically put in place by others and being reluctant about the power and prestige it delivers, and others, that are simply there to impose their will over others, doing it for a carear choice, and in general, with a hidden agenda, none of which is for serving others. I suppose I can add a third which would take a little of both at the same time and those are the ones you really gotta look out for since they aren't so transparent.
I'll take the former any day, they exist, just are not going to be at the fanciest facilities, nor have a huge number of people following them around. Look for the underdog churches, you'll find them there.
Thanks for your input. I think you are right on. Those that would be teachers, overseers, and Sheppard's must earn that position from the children of God.
It's more like they are appointed by the flock, they don't strive for leadership, it's thrust upon them.
Now we know what it means in Acts 20:28, 1 Tim. 3:1-7, and Titus 1:5-10.
Charles Sloan
I judge everything in the light of the "Historical Gospel" you should to.
1. Is it according to the Bible, I mean the whole Bible
2. Does it glorify Christ or man.
3. Does it teach Christ as the new Adam and representative of humanity.
4. Does it teach that Christ fulfilled the law for us.
5. Does it teach that God accepts Christ in our name, and we are accepted in him.
6. Does it teach that we have been crucified with Christ.
7. Does it teach that we have been made perfect and complete in Christ.
I'll agree with 1 and 4, I'll let Charles discuss the rest. :)
: RichardBurger Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 06:35:30My question to you is how do you know who your teachers, overseers, and Sheppard's are??? And do you listen to them blindly??
This is a serious question since it is you want me to see it as you do.
I appreciate this question since it seems like a sincere one amidst so much rhetoric. I agree there are false teachers in the world, I never said there isn't. But just because there are
some false teachers in the world doesn't mean that everyone is.
The Bible says in 1John 4:1 "Believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." So trying the spirits is the true test for anyone who claim to be an apostle, prophet, teacher, or pastor. And how do you try them you may ask? Well against the Word of God of course.
: RichardBurger Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 06:49:39The problem is that many seem to think they are not sinning anymore. They think their sinful flesh has changed and they do not sin any longer. These cannot accept the fact that they still sin. After all aren't they born again and haven't they put off the old man and his works like it says in Eph 4:22, and Col 3:8-9?
Now it is you that should be honest and tell us if you still sin just like the rest of us.
I never said that we don't sin anymore oh master of scarecrows. Neither did I even remotely allude to the idea that I don't sin anymore. I probably sin more than the rest of you to be completely honest. But I don't see how this adds to the discussion other than as an effort to again mischaracterize me as someone who is teaching the false doctrine of 'sinless perfection', which is completely foreign to all my responses.
My entire point id you are trying to make all men perpetual liars, when we are no longer walking in the course of this world. So pastors and teachers are not all liars like you are making them out to be so you can be justified in rejecting church attendance and submitting to the eldership.
: RichardBurger Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 08:01:17
: John 1:1 Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 07:04:21
It's more like they are appointed by the flock, they don't strive for leadership, it's thrust upon them.
Now we know what it means in Acts 20:28, 1 Tim. 3:1-7, and Titus 1:5-10.
So now you agree there really are elders and shepherds, and the work is given to them by God alone. Just like I said in the first place by citing Acts 20:28.
So now why do you choose to reject the idea that we need to be apart of a fellowship of believers that submit to an eldership if they are made shepherds of the flock by God according to your own admission?
Comeon Richard be reasonable!
: Robert Pate Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 09:03:01
Charles Sloan
I judge everything in the light of the "Historical Gospel" you should to.
1. Is it according to the Bible, I mean the whole Bible
2. Does it glorify Christ or man.
3. Does it teach Christ as the new Adam and representative of humanity.
4. Does it teach that Christ fulfilled the law for us.
5. Does it teach that God accepts Christ in our name, and we are accepted in him.
6. Does it teach that we have been crucified with Christ.
7. Does it teach that we have been made perfect and complete in Christ.
Robert,
I agree with the first one, and thats as far as I need to go.
Again, I would like to point out as I did in your previous post: If you visit multiple churches and all the leadership there have a problem with your teachings, wouldn't it stand to reason there might be something wrong with your doctrine?
You don't believe that you are so infallible that you can't be in error, do you?
replace former with initial type of leader. whoops!!! :)
: Charles Sloan Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 09:55:29
: RichardBurger Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 06:35:30My question to you is how do you know who your teachers, overseers, and Sheppard's are??? And do you listen to them blindly??
This is a serious question since it is you want me to see it as you do.
I appreciate this question since it seems like a sincere one amidst so much rhetoric. I agree there are false teachers in the world, I never said there isn't. But just because there are some false teachers in the world doesn't mean that everyone is.
The Bible says in 1John 4:1 "Believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." So trying the spirits is the true test for anyone who claim to be an apostle, prophet, teacher, or pastor. And how do you try them you may ask? Well against the Word of God of course.
: RichardBurger Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 06:49:39The problem is that many seem to think they are not sinning anymore. They think their sinful flesh has changed and they do not sin any longer. These cannot accept the fact that they still sin. After all aren't they born again and haven't they put off the old man and his works like it says in Eph 4:22, and Col 3:8-9?
Now it is you that should be honest and tell us if you still sin just like the rest of us.
I never said that we don't sin anymore oh master of scarecrows. Neither did I even remotely allude to the idea that I don't sin anymore. I probably sin more than the rest of you to be completely honest. But I don't see how this adds to the discussion other than as an effort to again mischaracterize me as someone who is teaching the false doctrine of 'sinless perfection', which is completely foreign to all my responses.
My entire point id you are trying to make all men perpetual liars, when we are no longer walking in the course of this world. So pastors and teachers are not all liars like you are making them out to be so you can be justified in rejecting church attendance and submitting to the eldership.
: RichardBurger Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 08:01:17
: John 1:1 Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 07:04:21
It's more like they are appointed by the flock, they don't strive for leadership, it's thrust upon them.
Now we know what it means in Acts 20:28, 1 Tim. 3:1-7, and Titus 1:5-10.
So now you agree there really are elders and shepherds, and the work is given to them by God alone. Just like I said in the first place by citing Acts 20:28.
So now why do you choose to reject the idea that we need to be apart of a fellowship of believers that submit to an eldership if they are made shepherds of the flock by God according to your own admission?
Comeon Richard be reasonable!
I am being reasonable. I have been showing that many so called teachers, overseers, and Sheppard's are not teaching the true gospel of grace and I am on this forum pointing that fact out. It seem you are saying I can't do that because I am not in a man ran physical organized church that you think has been placed over me.
I have stated, on this forum, that I attend a Sunday morning Sunday school class, a Sunday night Bible Study group, and a Tuesday night Bible study group. It is my contention that each of these groups meets the definition of a church. In these classes each member teaches on rotational basis. Two of these classes asked me to be their teacher but I believe I can contribute by participating in the discussions just as the others do. Therefore we have many teachers, overseers, and Sheppard's in these classes.
I do not attend the formal church services because they do not edify the knowledge of the church. They are feel good social moral teachings that put a smoke screen to cover up the fact that everyone is just as much a sinner in the flesh as anyone else.
When I started going to this church the membership was about 300. Now it is over 5,000. The pastor's salary was the same as the average salary of the congregation. Today his salary would make many doctors envious. How did it get that way, because the pastor seeded the committees with those that would support a higher salary. Those on the committees that objected were not encouraged to stay on the committee. How do I know that, my wife was on the committee while this was happening and was told she was causing a problem for the church. Not many of the original 300 are still at the church. Of those that are, few attend the formal services.
I believe you will say all of the 300, and myself, are rebelling against the authority that was placed over us. That we should go along like good sheep and ignore the fact that the truth of God is not taught. Just who do we think we are anyway?????
: Charles Sloan Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 10:04:48
: Robert Pate Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 09:03:01
Charles Sloan
I judge everything in the light of the "Historical Gospel" you should to.
1. Is it according to the Bible, I mean the whole Bible
2. Does it glorify Christ or man.
3. Does it teach Christ as the new Adam and representative of humanity.
4. Does it teach that Christ fulfilled the law for us.
5. Does it teach that God accepts Christ in our name, and we are accepted in him.
6. Does it teach that we have been crucified with Christ.
7. Does it teach that we have been made perfect and complete in Christ.
Robert,
I agree with the first one, and thats as far as I need to go.
Again, I would like to point out as I did in your previous post: If you visit multiple churches and all the leadership there have a problem with your teachings, wouldn't it stand to reason there might be something wrong with your doctrine?
You don't believe that you are so infallible that you can't be in error, do you?
I would like to comment on the above. The Bible teaches that in the last days the church ran by men will become apostate.
Do you believe that the churches of today are not apostate? Everyone of Robert's 7 points are what the churches should be teaching but they aren't.
1. Is it according to the Bible, I mean the whole Bible
2. Does it glorify Christ or man.
3. Does it teach Christ as the new Adam and representative of humanity.
4. Does it teach that Christ fulfilled the law for us.
5. Does it teach that God accepts Christ in our name, and we are accepted in him.
6. Does it teach that we have been crucified with Christ.
7. Does it teach that we have been made perfect and complete in Christ.
Which one(s) of the above would you disagree with?
: RichardBurger Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 12:12:19
I am being reasonable. I have been showing that many so called teachers, overseers, and Sheppard's are not teaching the true gospel of grace and I am on this forum pointing that fact out. It seem you are saying I can't do that because I am not in a man ran physical organized church that you think has been placed over me.
I never said you can or can't do anything based on your church affiliation General Scarecrow. I am just encouraging Robert and others like him who don't attend a group to find a fellowship they can get along with. Since you admit to attending, it doesn't even make sense now why you are withstanding me on this issue. Now you just seem like a huge hypocrite.
: RichardBurger Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 12:12:19I do not attend the formal church services because they do not edify the knowledge of the church. They are feel good social moral teachings that put a smoke screen to cover up the fact that everyone is just as much a sinner in the flesh as anyone else.
And that is your choice, but as long as you are in some kind of fellowship I'm happy for you. But I don't think it fair for you to judge everyone in a church service as making smokescreens for their flesh. Could some people be there to sincerely worship God in spirit and in truth?
: RichardBurger Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 12:12:19I believe you will say all of the 300, and myself, are rebelling against the authority that was placed over us. That we should go along like good sheep and ignore the fact that the truth of God is not taught. Just who do we think we are anyway?????
I believe you believe what you want to believe about what I believe, contrary to what I believe or what I tell you I believe... (getting dizzy) I am not passing judgement on you or your fellowship because you choose to attend or not attend a service or whatever you do. I'm just glad to hear that you have a group that you study and regularly meet with.
Although I don't like the idea of a division in a congregation, but thats really none of my business. And besides I don't know the whole story anyways.
: RichardBurger Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 12:28:52I would like to comment on the above. The Bible teaches that in the last days the church ran by men will become apostate.
Do you believe that the churches of today are not apostate? Everyone of Robert's 7 points are what the churches should be teaching but they aren't.
1. Is it according to the Bible, I mean the whole Bible
2. Does it glorify Christ or man.
3. Does it teach Christ as the new Adam and representative of humanity.
4. Does it teach that Christ fulfilled the law for us.
5. Does it teach that God accepts Christ in our name, and we are accepted in him.
6. Does it teach that we have been crucified with Christ.
7. Does it teach that we have been made perfect and complete in Christ.
Which one(s) of the above would you disagree with?
Robert, I mean Richard: If a church lives up to the first point they will meet the rest.
Its just that simple.
If you do not adhere to each of the seven points you are in a state of apostasy.
All seven points can be proven with scripture and are the gospel.
: Charles Sloan Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 12:59:28
: RichardBurger Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 12:28:52I would like to comment on the above. The Bible teaches that in the last days the church ran by men will become apostate.
Do you believe that the churches of today are not apostate? Everyone of Robert's 7 points are what the churches should be teaching but they aren't.
1. Is it according to the Bible, I mean the whole Bible
2. Does it glorify Christ or man.
3. Does it teach Christ as the new Adam and representative of humanity.
4. Does it teach that Christ fulfilled the law for us.
5. Does it teach that God accepts Christ in our name, and we are accepted in him.
6. Does it teach that we have been crucified with Christ.
7. Does it teach that we have been made perfect and complete in Christ.
Which one(s) of the above would you disagree with?
Robert, I mean Richard: If a church lives up to the first point they will meet the rest.
Its just that simple.
Many think they are living up to the first one but their interpretation of the word of God is not correct. They can't accept the rest of the 7 because of their theology. Again my question. Which one(s) of the 7 do you agree on. I can say I agree to all of them. How about you?
I can agree with everything that agrees with Scripture. That is my bar, not some list that you make up. If your list or any other list lines up with Scripture, then why wouldn't I agree with it?
: Charles Sloan Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 14:03:20
I can agree with everything that agrees with Scripture. That is my bar, not some list that you make up. If your list or any other list lines up with Scripture, then why wouldn't I agree with it?
I'll try again. Which one(s) of the 7 line up with scriptures in your opinion?
: RichardBurger Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 14:08:10
: Charles Sloan Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 14:03:20
I can agree with everything that agrees with Scripture. That is my bar, not some list that you make up. If your list or any other list lines up with Scripture, then why wouldn't I agree with it?
I'll try again. Which one(s) of the 7 line up with scriptures in your opinion?
Listen Rich,
Your list isn't sacred to me, if it pans out with Scripture then prove it. I'm not doing the leg work of matching the passages to your points. I know they match, but you should have the verses that correspond to your points.
Otherwise, I'm not going to concede to your list at all.
Charles Sloan
If you don't concede to the list, then you don't believe the gospel. The gospel is far more than Christ died for our sins.
: Robert Pate Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 16:19:26
Charles Sloan
If you don't concede to the list, then you don't believe the gospel. The gospel is far more than Christ died for our sins.
Robert, your list isn't the Gospel.
I asked for Scriptural support for the points on your list before I agreed, you have provided none.
: Robert Pate Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 16:19:26
Charles Sloan
If you don't concede to the list, then you don't believe the gospel. The gospel is far more than Christ died for our sins.
I don't know that I agree with every point on your list, particularly the wording of a few of your points. Even so, why is your list THE list when it comes to the gospel, Robert? Could you please support each point in your list with Scripture, as well as adherence to the list itself as a measure against apostacy? Furthermore, why does the list stop at just 7 points? You left out several things, including the resurrection of Jesus from the dead which is a crucial part of the gospel according to the Scriptures... And as far as "Christ died for our sins" is concerned, your list doesn't even say that... How come?
James Rondon
The list is just a thumb print of the gospel, Will expound later, I have an appointment.
: Robert Pate Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 09:03:01
Charles Sloan
I judge everything in the light of the "Historical Gospel" you should to.
1. Is it according to the Bible, I mean the whole Bible
2. Does it glorify Christ or man.
3. Does it teach Christ as the new Adam and representative of humanity.
4. Does it teach that Christ fulfilled the law for us.
5. Does it teach that God accepts Christ in our name, and we are accepted in him.
6. Does it teach that we have been crucified with Christ.
7. Does it teach that we have been made perfect and complete in Christ.
Oh good more rules. So it is the Robert religion statement of faith.
Now you are a denomination. Finally, I thought we would never get here.
1. All agree I hope.
2. Lifts up Jesus Christ, Yes.
3. The Son of God, God in the Flesh. The new Adam that takes away the sins of the many.
4. Christ did fulfill the law.
5. No. I have no authority over Jesus Christ, and I am accepted because of Him.
6. You need to explain this one according to what you believe. I have put to death the old man, yes.
7. Yes.
FTL
#2 bugs me the most, not sure if I want to glorify man, he's not worthy of that, only God.
Looking over the list again, it is interesting that nowhere in it is the mention of sin...
I wonder why that is?
This is what I find troubling:
: Robert Pate Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 09:03:015. Does it teach that God accepts Christ in our name, and we are accepted in him.
Where in the Bible does it teach that God accepts Christ in
our name?
Agreed... Sounds backwards.
: Charles Sloan Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 14:12:21
: RichardBurger Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 14:08:10
: Charles Sloan Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 14:03:20
I can agree with everything that agrees with Scripture. That is my bar, not some list that you make up. If your list or any other list lines up with Scripture, then why wouldn't I agree with it?
I'll try again. Which one(s) of the 7 line up with scriptures in your opinion?
Listen Rich,
Your list isn't sacred to me, if it pans out with Scripture then prove it. I'm not doing the leg work of matching the passages to your points. I know they match, but you should have the verses that correspond to your points.
Otherwise, I'm not going to concede to your list at all.
First of all it wasn't my list. There is no need to do any leg work. They have been discussed on this forum many times.
I don't think you are being open and honest with us on this forum. You hide what you really believe.
: Harold Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 16:43:26
: Robert Pate Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 09:03:01
Charles Sloan
I judge everything in the light of the "Historical Gospel" you should to.
1. Is it according to the Bible, I mean the whole Bible
2. Does it glorify Christ or man.
3. Does it teach Christ as the new Adam and representative of humanity.
4. Does it teach that Christ fulfilled the law for us.
5. Does it teach that God accepts Christ in our name, and we are accepted in him.
6. Does it teach that we have been crucified with Christ.
7. Does it teach that we have been made perfect and complete in Christ.
Oh good more rules. So it is the Robert religion statement of faith.
Now you are a denomination. Finally, I thought we would never get here.
1. All agree I hope.
2. Lifts up Jesus Christ, Yes.
3. The Son of God, God in the Flesh. The new Adam that takes away the sins of the many.
4. Christ did fulfill the law.
5. No. I have no authority over Jesus Christ, and I am accepted because of Him.
6. You need to explain this one according to what you believe. I have put to death the old man, yes.
7. Yes.
FTL
Could you elaborate #6 for me? How have you put to death the old man?
Some say it is not sinning.
Some say it is no longer placing any faith in their flesh being able to stop sining by controling their will and because of it they have no confidence in the flesh. These deny their ability to stop sinning (deny self) and trust in Jesus to save them.
See my recent post, "Do You Believe the Gospel?"
How are we accepted in him. Ephesians 1:6 says, To the praise of his glory of his grace, wherein he has MADE US acceptable in the beloved (Christ)
Paul said, "That I might be found IN HIM not having my own righteousness which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ. Philippians 3:9.
It is implied in Romans 5 & 6.
: RichardBurger Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 20:04:49First of all it wasn't my list. There is no need to do any leg work. They have been discussed on this forum many times.
I don't think you are being open and honest with us on this forum. You hide what you really believe.
Richard,
I have been a member of this forum for years. Everyone here knows what I believe, I make my beliefs no secret to anyone. Go and read my past posts captain scarecrow, and show me an example of my dishonesty and how I have hidden my beliefs.
But if you would like to know what I believe, I believe the list is concealing antinomian doctrines, and utter depravity that rejects true repentance. But I noticed neither you or Robert has made any attempt to defend this creed with a single verse of Scripture, which I also believe is very telling.
: Charles Sloan Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 22:24:11
I believe the list is concealing antinomian doctrines, and utter depravity that rejects true repentance.
Especially since there is absolutely no mention of sin in the list, which seems to be a very telling omission.
: Charles Sloan Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 22:24:11
: RichardBurger Wed Jan 30, 2008 - 20:04:49First of all it wasn't my list. There is no need to do any leg work. They have been discussed on this forum many times.
I don't think you are being open and honest with us on this forum. You hide what you really believe.
Richard,
I have been a member of this forum for years. Everyone here knows what I believe, I make my beliefs no secret to anyone. Go and read my past posts captain scarecrow, and show me an example of my dishonesty and how I have hidden my beliefs.
But if you would like to know what I believe, I believe the list is concealing antinomian doctrines, and utter depravity that rejects true repentance. But I noticed neither you or Robert has made any attempt to defend this creed with a single verse of Scripture, which I also believe is very telling.
I haven't been on this forum for years, only for about 2 months. So, NO, I don't know you by all of your past posts. But I do know you have not given any opinion of the list. All you have done is railed against it as if most of it is untrue.
But the way, thanks for the name, "captain scarecrow." A scarecrow is used to drive off predators of the crops. I am driving off false ideas.
: RichardBurger Thu Jan 31, 2008 - 07:22:47I haven't been on this forum for years, only for about 2 months. So, NO, I don't know you by all of your past posts. But I do know you have not given any opinion of the list. All you have done is railed against it as if most of it is untrue.
But the way, thanks for the name, "captain scarecrow." A scarecrow is used to drive off predators of the crops. I am driving off false ideas.
Yup, I do rail on your list because you fail to support it with Scripture. So I will treat it just like "The Watchtower" or "Awake!" or other things people have used inplace of Scripture. But I did give you my opinion on the list, go back and read.
But what false ideas are you really driving off here on your crusade for truth? Give me some examples.
: Charles Sloan Thu Jan 31, 2008 - 07:43:39
: RichardBurger Thu Jan 31, 2008 - 07:22:47I haven't been on this forum for years, only for about 2 months. So, NO, I don't know you by all of your past posts. But I do know you have not given any opinion of the list. All you have done is railed against it as if most of it is untrue.
But the way, thanks for the name, "captain scarecrow." A scarecrow is used to drive off predators of the crops. I am driving off false ideas.
Yup, I do rail on your list because you fail to support it with Scripture. So I will treat it just like "The Watchtower" or "Awake!" or other things people have used inplace of Scripture. But I did give you my opinion on the list, go back and read.
But what false ideas are you really driving off here on your crusade for truth? Give me some examples.
As I said before, the list is NOT my list, Robert posted it.
Since you can't remember who wrote the list I doubt if you will remember anything I say. Why should I waste my time giving you examples? You didn't believe them when I posted them and you won't believe them if I said them a thousand times.
Man, aren't we having fun!!!!!
: RichardBurger Thu Jan 31, 2008 - 07:53:59
As I said before, the list is NOT my list, Robert posted it.
Since you can't remember who wrote the list I doubt if you will remember anything I say. Why should I waste my time giving you examples? You didn't believe them when I posted them and you won't believe them if I said them a thousand times.
Man, aren't we having fun!!!!!
Sorry, you just seem so avid to defend the list I thought you wouldn't mind being affiliated with it.
But humor me, show me some examples of this false doctrines you are defending the truth from. I am very interested to hear what these are, since the only real issue has been whether or not to go to church. Which you stood against at first only to admit in the end that you go to church, yeah that made alot of sense.
Please, I would love to see some examples.
: Charles Sloan Thu Jan 31, 2008 - 08:36:21
: RichardBurger Thu Jan 31, 2008 - 07:53:59
As I said before, the list is NOT my list, Robert posted it.
Since you can't remember who wrote the list I doubt if you will remember anything I say. Why should I waste my time giving you examples? You didn't believe them when I posted them and you won't believe them if I said them a thousand times.
Man, aren't we having fun!!!!!
Sorry, you just seem so avid to defend the list I thought you wouldn't mind being affiliated with it.
But humor me, show me some examples of this false doctrines you are defending the truth from. I am very interested to hear what these are, since the only real issue has been whether or not to go to church. Which you stood against at first only to admit in the end that you go to church, yeah that made alot of sense.
Please, I would love to see some examples.
And because I go to these Bible Study groups you have me championing the man ran organized physical church, which you know from my posts I do not support, right?
By the way, did I mention that one of these Bible Study groups meets in the homes of those in the class? Next month it is meeting at my house.
This is written to teach the truth about the church. But I am sure you will not agree. But there are others reading what is posted on this forum and this is for them.
Physical and Spiritual churches defined:
*****
church:
In the early centuries of Christianity, "church
I don't consider the building we meet in to be the church, but I do consider the people that meet there to be the Church.
FTL
: Harold Thu Jan 31, 2008 - 12:26:12
I don't consider the building we in to be the church, but I do consider the people that meet there to be the Church.
FTL
Thus richards basic inherent weakness in all of his posts. He assumes that we don't recognize the difference or he doesn't? He is arguing a point from a premise most of us don't even have.
RichardBurger
I don't see organized religion as a church. It is a business. Most of the people going to the organized church are afraid to stop going and giving their money. They think that God will not bless them if they stop going and giving their money. TV preachers know how to extort money from their congregations. I remember when Oral Roberts use to teach "Seed faith giving" If you sent in $100 you would get back $1000. He should have been arrested. Preachers know how to keep the bucks coming in. They do it with the law.
: Robert Pate Thu Jan 31, 2008 - 13:03:07
RichardBurger
I don't see organized religion as a church. It is a business. Most of the people going to the organized church are afraid to stop going and giving their money. They think that God will not bless them if they stop going and giving their money. TV preachers know how to extort money from their congregations. I remember when Oral Roberts use to teach "Seed faith giving" If you sent in $100 you would get back $1000. He should have been arrested. Preachers know how to keep the bucks coming in. They do it with the law.
Your ability to accurately reflect all of us (except your "group") is absolutely amazing. You are brilliant in your analysis and astonishingly flawless in your observation. Can I send you some money?
: zoonance Thu Jan 31, 2008 - 12:33:49
: Harold Thu Jan 31, 2008 - 12:26:12
I don't consider the building we in to be the church, but I do consider the people that meet there to be the Church.
FTL
Thus richards basic inherent weakness in all of his posts. He assumes that we don't recognize the difference or he doesn't? He is arguing a point from a premise most of us don't even have.
That is called the strawman tactic, something Richard has perfected to an ugly artform.
zoonance
Yes, send me some money. If you don't God will get it some other way. I guarantee that for every dollar you send, you will get two dollars back. Of course if you sin you may not get anything back.
In care of: http://www.thefalseapostlesdoctrine.com/anothergospel/robthetruechurch.htm
: Charles Sloan Thu Jan 31, 2008 - 13:13:54
: zoonance Thu Jan 31, 2008 - 12:33:49
: Harold Thu Jan 31, 2008 - 12:26:12
I don't consider the building we in to be the church, but I do consider the people that meet there to be the Church.
FTL
Thus richards basic inherent weakness in all of his posts. He assumes that we don't recognize the difference or he doesn't? He is arguing a point from a premise most of us don't even have.
That is called the strawman tactic, something Richard has perfected to an ugly artform.
And you say absolutely nothing about what I sent you. You asked for scriptures and I gave them to you. But obviously you would rather attack me than read and comment on what I wrote. Perhaps you are really not able to carry on an intelligent conversation about the ideas of others. -- A gadfly comes to mind.
But you are not the only one on this forum and what I write I don't write to you. In fact, what I wrote should be on a separate topic.
: zoonance Thu Jan 31, 2008 - 12:33:49
: Harold Thu Jan 31, 2008 - 12:26:12
I don't consider the building we in to be the church, but I do consider the people that meet there to be the Church.
FTL
Thus richards basic inherent weakness in all of his posts. He assumes that we don't recognize the difference or he doesn't? He is arguing a point from a premise most of us don't even have.
Really??? I didn't know I was ARGUING with anyone. I just posted what I believe.
: RichardBurger Thu Jan 31, 2008 - 14:03:34
And you say absolutely nothing about what I sent you. You asked for scriptures and I gave them to you. But obviously you would rather attack me than read and comment on what I wrote. Perhaps you are really not able to carry on an intelligent conversation about the ideas of others. -- A gadfly comes to mind.
But you are not the only one on this forum and what I write I don't write to you. In fact, what I wrote should be on a separate topic.
The Scriptures you gave have nothing to do with the 7 point list I asked you to support. But I did intend to comment on your diversion, but that will take some time to do and I'm at work right now, so forgive me if you don't rank in my highest priority at the moment. But you don't need to insult me to try and prove your intellectual prowess, I think your propaganda tactics demonstrate that quite enough...
: Robert Pate Thu Jan 31, 2008 - 13:48:36
zoonance
Yes, send me some money. If you don't God will get it some other way. I guarantee that for every dollar you send, you will get two dollars back. Of course if you sin you may not get anything back.
some church in Tulsa sent me a paper prayer rug promising results. It had a picture of Jesus on it that if you stared at it long enough, you can see his eyes looking back at you. (like those scribbly pictures you stare at and see a 3D picture. Anybody else get one of these mass mailings?
: RichardBurger Thu Jan 31, 2008 - 14:05:43
: zoonance Thu Jan 31, 2008 - 12:33:49
: Harold Thu Jan 31, 2008 - 12:26:12
I don't consider the building we in to be the church, but I do consider the people that meet there to be the Church.
FTL
Thus richards basic inherent weakness in all of his posts. He assumes that we don't recognize the difference or he doesn't? He is arguing a point from a premise most of us don't even have.
Really??? I didn't know I was ARGUING with anyone. I just posted what I believe.
for what purpose? Ok you were APOLOGIZING a point...
zoonance
I got some holy water a while back, It was in a sealed plastic envelope. They said it came from a spring outside of Jerusalem that Jesus might have drank from. I think that it was tap water from NY. (yuk!)
: Robert Pate Thu Jan 31, 2008 - 17:35:36
zoonance
I got some holy water a while back, It was in a sealed plastic envelope. They said it came from a spring outside of Jerusalem that Jesus might have drank from. I think that it was tap water from NY. (yuk!)
Hey Robert I am waiting on you to elaborate on your seven point salvation plan.
For The Lord
Harold
See my recent post "Do You Believe the Gospel?" I came up with it just for you and Charles.
: Robert Pate Thu Jan 31, 2008 - 20:00:15
Harold
See my recent post "Do You Believe the Gospel?" I came up with it just for you and Charles.
And I made a response just for you.
I don't think Paul could have made it today as a preacher of the gospel.
1st Corinthians 9:18 "What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I make the gospel of Christ WITHOUT CHARGE, that I abuse not my power in the gospel."
I don't think that Paul took up an offering for preaching the gospel. Paul said that it is an abuse to take money for preaching the gospel.
Why don't you all show this scripture to your pastors and see whether their ears turn red or pink.
Robert, you should get a whole Bible.
Charles Sloan
Everytime some one shines light in your face you retaliate with a smart remark.
: Robert Pate Fri Feb 01, 2008 - 17:17:32
Charles Sloan
Everytime some one shines light in your face you retaliate with a smart remark.
You aren't shining anything. All you are doing is divorcing passages from the whole of Scripture to justify your pet doctrines. These practices might help boost your book sales, but it does nothing for me.
Charles Sloan
The scripture speaks for its self. You just don't like what it says, so you attack the messenger.
: Robert Pate Thu Jan 31, 2008 - 21:40:39
I don't think Paul could have made it today as a preacher of the gospel.
1st Corinthians 9:18 "What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I make the gospel of Christ WITHOUT CHARGE, that I abuse not my power in the gospel."
I don't think that Paul took up an offering for preaching the gospel. Paul said that it is an abuse to take money for preaching the gospel.
Why don't you all show this scripture to your pastors and see whether their ears turn red or pink.
Probably because it is taken out of context. Go back to the same chapter, and start reading this time from at least verse 7. Be careful, however, it may make your ears turn red or pink...
: Robert Pate Fri Feb 01, 2008 - 17:42:08
Charles Sloan
The scripture speaks for its self. You just don't like what it says, so you attack the messenger.
Why wouldn't I like what it says Robert, I am not a pastor nor do I get paid from the Church. Neither does my pastor accept a salary even if we could afford one. So I do even remotely see how your post relates to me personally. But since the Scripture speaks for itself and people like pastors shouldn't get paid for teaching, why are you
selling your book? Shouldn't you make the gospel of Christ available WITHOUT CHARGE?
Charles Sloan
By the time I pay for all of the cost on the books I go in the hole every time I sell one.
Sounds to me like you aren't following the apostlesdoctrine.
I am left with not knowing what to believe after reading this entire thread of posts.
Do most of the people here believe that Paul advocates a sinful lifestyle? No one ever explains Romans 7. What does it mean to you?
I'm not saying that we can live a sinless life while being in the flesh but I do believe that we are to strive to.
dayspring08
dayspring8
What is so wonderful about the gospel is that you can remain a sinner and still be saved. Simply because this salvation that God has provided for us is completely outside of us. It is a past historical event. It is not based upon your performance but is based upon Christ performance.
Paul lived his life before the Lord as a sinner, he struggled with sin just like we do, as you can see in Romans 7. It is the Holy Spirit working in our lives that convicts us of sin. The gospel calls for Holy living and repentance which the Spirit is constantly working in our life.
Charles Sloan
No, I am not following "The Apostles Doctrine" and neither are you Charles.
: Robert Pate Fri Feb 01, 2008 - 21:29:53
dayspring8
What is so wonderful about the gospel is that you can remain a sinner and still be saved. Simply because this salvation that God has provided for us is completely outside of us. It is a past historical event. It is not based upon your performance but is based upon Christ performance.
Paul lived his life before the Lord as a sinner, he struggled with sin just like we do, as you can see in Romans 7. It is the Holy Spirit working in our lives that convicts us of sin. The gospel calls for Holy living and repentance which the Spirit is constantly working in our life.
I must disagree with you. Paul had weemed himself from all earthly desires and fighting sin with both barrels.
In chapter 7 he bemoans the sinful nature of man and his weakness to fight it in the flesh without Christ and Grace in his life.
After receiving the Holy Ghost on the Day of Pentecost, the apostles were no longer a bunch of powerless unconverted individuals living under the Law.
dayspring08
'But you don't need to insult me to try and prove your intellectual prowess,'
charles:
'intellectual prowess'?
you actually used those terms regarding this topic's starter??
you have a grand career in comedy ahead of you ::tippinghat::
dj
: dayspring08 Sat Feb 02, 2008 - 05:22:46
: Robert Pate Fri Feb 01, 2008 - 21:29:53
dayspring8
What is so wonderful about the gospel is that you can remain a sinner and still be saved. Simply because this salvation that God has provided for us is completely outside of us. It is a past historical event. It is not based upon your performance but is based upon Christ performance.
Paul lived his life before the Lord as a sinner, he struggled with sin just like we do, as you can see in Romans 7. It is the Holy Spirit working in our lives that convicts us of sin. The gospel calls for Holy living and repentance which the Spirit is constantly working in our life.
I must disagree with you. Paul had weemed himself from all earthly desires and fighting sin with both barrels.
In chapter 7 he bemoans the sinful nature of man and his weakness to fight it in the flesh without Christ and Grace in his life.
After receiving the Holy Ghost on the Day of Pentecost, the apostles were no longer a bunch of powerless unconverted individuals living under the Law.
dayspring08
dayspring08, Do you believe that a person can become perfect and sinless in the flesh; that a person can change his/her sinful nature?
In Romans 7 we see Paul telling us about the struggle between the flesh and the Spirit. He never indicates it is a struggle that he has won IN THE FLESH. As a matter of fact the last part of the last sentence in Romans 7 states that with the flesh he follows the law of sin.
I do not believe any man on this earth is sinless today nor at any other time except for Jesus. Paul was just as sinful as we are.
Dayspring08
So you believe that Paul had attained into perfection by the power of the Holy Spirit?
If that were true God would have taken him to heaven, yet he remained on the earth as a sinner.
Philippians 3:12 Paul said, "Not as though I already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after." verse 14, He said that he presses after the high calling of God in Jesus Christ." We are all pressing to be Christ like, but in our heart we know that we are failing.
Doesn't sound to me like he had arrived. He also referred to himself as the "chief of sinners" 1st Timothy 1:15.
If you think that you have arrived then you exclude yourself from salvation. Christ came into the world to save sinners. Romans 5:6 says, that Christ died for the ungodly.
: Robert Pate Fri Feb 01, 2008 - 21:32:46
Charles Sloan
No, I am not following "The Apostles Doctrine" and neither are you Charles.
Did the Apostles follow the apostlesdoctrine?
: RichardBurger Sat Feb 02, 2008 - 07:26:27
: dayspring08 Sat Feb 02, 2008 - 05:22:46
: Robert Pate Fri Feb 01, 2008 - 21:29:53
dayspring8
What is so wonderful about the gospel is that you can remain a sinner and still be saved. Simply because this salvation that God has provided for us is completely outside of us. It is a past historical event. It is not based upon your performance but is based upon Christ performance.
Paul lived his life before the Lord as a sinner, he struggled with sin just like we do, as you can see in Romans 7. It is the Holy Spirit working in our lives that convicts us of sin. The gospel calls for Holy living and repentance which the Spirit is constantly working in our life.
I must disagree with you. Paul had weemed himself from all earthly desires and fighting sin with both barrels.
In chapter 7 he bemoans the sinful nature of man and his weakness to fight it in the flesh without Christ and Grace in his life.
After receiving the Holy Ghost on the Day of Pentecost, the apostles were no longer a bunch of powerless unconverted individuals living under the Law.
dayspring08
dayspring08, Do you believe that a person can become perfect and sinless in the flesh; that a person can change his/her sinful nature?
In Romans 7 we see Paul telling us about the struggle between the flesh and the Spirit. He never indicates it is a struggle that he has won IN THE FLESH. As a matter of fact the last part of the last sentence in Romans 7 states that with the flesh he follows the law of sin.
I do not believe any man on this earth is sinless today nor at any other time except for Jesus. Paul was just as sinful as we are.
No, I do not believe we can live a sinless life here on earth. However, you sound as if you don't even try to fight the flesh. We are in a spiritual warfare or at least the true born again Christians are.
As Paul said,
we no longer walk after the flesh to fulfill the lusts thereof but in the Spirit.You didn't reply to any questions I asked.?
My proof is in Paul's own words in the very next chapter.
ROMANS 8
1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.5
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12
Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him , that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
As I said Paul doesn't back up living a sinful life and neither does any of the other apostles nor Christ Himself. And, the Bible has no contradictions in it.
You can choose and pick which verses you like, which suit your belief's but when you do that and try to leave the rest of the Bible out, you have nothing but a man-made doctrine which is worth nothing.
dayspring08
: Robert Pate Sat Feb 02, 2008 - 07:28:05
Dayspring08
So you believe that Paul had attained into perfection by the power of the Holy Spirit?
If that were true God would have taken him to heaven, yet he remained on the earth as a sinner.
Philippians 3:12 Paul said, "Not as though I already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after." verse 14, He said that he presses after the high calling of God in Jesus Christ." We are all pressing to be Christ like, but in our heart we know that we are failing.
Doesn't sound to me like he had arrived. He also referred to himself as the "chief of sinners" 1st Timothy 1:15.
If you think that you have arrived then you exclude yourself from salvation. Christ came into the world to save sinners. Romans 5:6 says, that Christ died for the ungodly.
Please see my post above.
Yes, Paul considered himself the worst of sinners because he persecuted the church. But God saved him and changed all that, didn't he?
dayspring08
dayspring08
There are only two kinds of sinners in the world. "Saved sinners" and "unsaved sinners." Paul was a saved sinner. The gospel that saves us, is not dependent upon our performance. It is solely dependent upon Christ performance. It was Christ who fulfilled God's Holy Law. It was Christ who atoned for our sins. All that Christ did to save us he did it in our name and on our behalf. We have been justified by the work of Christ. This work that Christ has done to save us becomes ours by faith alone. Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace (God's unmerited favor towards man) are you saved, AND NOT THAT OF YOURSELF it is a gift from God, not of works lest any man should boast."
All who accept Christ receive the First fruits of the Holy Spirit. Does the Holy Spirit make us holy? No, but it is a comforter to keep us until we can be with Christ.
As long as we are in these Adamic bodies we are sinners. "saved sinners" Should we live holy lives? Of course, we are to be witnesses for Christ. Will your holy life get you to heaven? absolutely not. If you can go to heaven by your holy life then Christ lived and died in vain.
: dayspring08 Sat Feb 02, 2008 - 14:17:14
: RichardBurger Sat Feb 02, 2008 - 07:26:27
: dayspring08 Sat Feb 02, 2008 - 05:22:46
: Robert Pate Fri Feb 01, 2008 - 21:29:53
dayspring8
What is so wonderful about the gospel is that you can remain a sinner and still be saved. Simply because this salvation that God has provided for us is completely outside of us. It is a past historical event. It is not based upon your performance but is based upon Christ performance.
Paul lived his life before the Lord as a sinner, he struggled with sin just like we do, as you can see in Romans 7. It is the Holy Spirit working in our lives that convicts us of sin. The gospel calls for Holy living and repentance which the Spirit is constantly working in our life.
I must disagree with you. Paul had weemed himself from all earthly desires and fighting sin with both barrels.
In chapter 7 he bemoans the sinful nature of man and his weakness to fight it in the flesh without Christ and Grace in his life.
After receiving the Holy Ghost on the Day of Pentecost, the apostles were no longer a bunch of powerless unconverted individuals living under the Law.
dayspring08
dayspring08, Do you believe that a person can become perfect and sinless in the flesh; that a person can change his/her sinful nature?
In Romans 7 we see Paul telling us about the struggle between the flesh and the Spirit. He never indicates it is a struggle that he has won IN THE FLESH. As a matter of fact the last part of the last sentence in Romans 7 states that with the flesh he follows the law of sin.
I do not believe any man on this earth is sinless today nor at any other time except for Jesus. Paul was just as sinful as we are.
No, I do not believe we can live a sinless life here on earth. However, you sound as if you don't even try to fight the flesh. We are in a spiritual warfare or at least the true born again Christians are.
As Paul said, we no longer walk after the flesh to fulfill the lusts thereof but in the Spirit.You didn't reply to any questions I asked.?
My proof is in Paul's own words in the very next chapter.
ROMANS 8
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him , that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
As I said Paul doesn't back up living a sinful life and neither does any of the other apostles nor Christ Himself. And, the Bible has no contradictions in it.
You can choose and pick which verses you like, which suit your belief's but when you do that and try to leave the rest of the Bible out, you have nothing but a man-made doctrine which is worth nothing.
dayspring08
Why are you so blind to the truth. You admit that a person always sins and then you quote scriptures which you believe tell us that God expects us to do the impossible.
The scriptures are not wrong but your ideas as to what they say is wrong. You are still in the flesh if you think you must do something in the flesh.
I am not in the flesh since I place no confidence in it. The flesh cannot please God because it still sins.
You are still in the flesh if you still think you are not justified before God by what He did on the cross. If you are not living your life in faith then you are living it in your flesh.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death
The flesh follows the law of sin and death, but those in the Spirit are free from the law.
: Robert Pate Fri Feb 01, 2008 - 21:32:46
Charles Sloan
No, I am not following "The Apostles Doctrine" and neither are you Charles.
Did the Apostles follow the apostlesdoctrine?
: Robert Pate Sat Feb 02, 2008 - 15:08:23
dayspring08
There are only two kinds of sinners in the world. "Saved sinners" and "unsaved sinners." Paul was a saved sinner. The gospel that saves us, is not dependent upon our performance. It is solely dependent upon Christ performance. It was Christ who fulfilled God's Holy Law. It was Christ who atoned for our sins. All that Christ did to save us he did it in our name and on our behalf. We have been justified by the work of Christ. This work that Christ has done to save us becomes ours by faith alone. Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace (God's unmerited favor towards man) are you saved, AND NOT THAT OF YOURSELF it is a gift from God, not of works lest any man should boast."
All who accept Christ receive the First fruits of the Holy Spirit. Does the Holy Spirit make us holy? No, but it is a comforter to keep us until we can be with Christ.
As long as we are in these Adamic bodies we are sinners. "saved sinners" Should we live holy lives? Of course, we are to be witnesses for Christ. Will your holy life get you to heaven? absolutely not. If you can go to heaven by your holy life then Christ lived and died in vain.
You are absolutely right we have nothing to give or offer God. Our righteousness is as filthy rags before him. Only Christ can deliver us and save us from our sins. When we believe on Him and accept Him in our lives as Lord and Saviour we are cleansed from all unrighteousness and become justified in His sight.
But there is something besides justification. If you never mature in the gospel and produce good fruits but only bad instead you will never see Heaven. He did not save us in our sins but from our sins.
He told the woman caught in the act of adultery
after he had forgiven her to go and sin no more!David, a man after God's own heart sinned. The difference is he never stayed in his sin nor sought to lead a sinful existence. When the prophet Nathan showed him his sin he fell on his face and repented.
This is his prayer:
PSALMS 51:10-12
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me [with thy] free spirit.
As you can read, he knew he had backslide and prayed that God restore him.
There is no such thing as a saved sinner. If you are a sinner, by that I mean to commit the same sin over and over and never overcome it, then you need to get saved. For Christ was an overcomer and He said that through Him we also can be overcomers.
MATTHEW 26:41
41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed [is] willing, but the flesh [is] weak.
So we rely completely on Him for the power to overcome sin.
He gave us that power through and by the Holy Ghost.dayspring08
: RichardBurger Sat Feb 02, 2008 - 22:23:09
: dayspring08 Sat Feb 02, 2008 - 14:17:14
: RichardBurger Sat Feb 02, 2008 - 07:26:27
: dayspring08 Sat Feb 02, 2008 - 05:22:46
: Robert Pate Fri Feb 01, 2008 - 21:29:53
dayspring8
What is so wonderful about the gospel is that you can remain a sinner and still be saved. Simply because this salvation that God has provided for us is completely outside of us. It is a past historical event. It is not based upon your performance but is based upon Christ performance.
Paul lived his life before the Lord as a sinner, he struggled with sin just like we do, as you can see in Romans 7. It is the Holy Spirit working in our lives that convicts us of sin. The gospel calls for Holy living and repentance which the Spirit is constantly working in our life.
I must disagree with you. Paul had weemed himself from all earthly desires and fighting sin with both barrels.
In chapter 7 he bemoans the sinful nature of man and his weakness to fight it in the flesh without Christ and Grace in his life.
After receiving the Holy Ghost on the Day of Pentecost, the apostles were no longer a bunch of powerless unconverted individuals living under the Law.
dayspring08
dayspring08, Do you believe that a person can become perfect and sinless in the flesh; that a person can change his/her sinful nature?
In Romans 7 we see Paul telling us about the struggle between the flesh and the Spirit. He never indicates it is a struggle that he has won IN THE FLESH. As a matter of fact the last part of the last sentence in Romans 7 states that with the flesh he follows the law of sin.
I do not believe any man on this earth is sinless today nor at any other time except for Jesus. Paul was just as sinful as we are.
No, I do not believe we can live a sinless life here on earth. However, you sound as if you don't even try to fight the flesh. We are in a spiritual warfare or at least the true born again Christians are.
As Paul said, we no longer walk after the flesh to fulfill the lusts thereof but in the Spirit.You didn't reply to any questions I asked.?
My proof is in Paul's own words in the very next chapter.
ROMANS 8
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him , that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
As I said Paul doesn't back up living a sinful life and neither does any of the other apostles nor Christ Himself. And, the Bible has no contradictions in it.
You can choose and pick which verses you like, which suit your belief's but when you do that and try to leave the rest of the Bible out, you have nothing but a man-made doctrine which is worth nothing.
dayspring08
Why are you so blind to the truth. You admit that a person always sins and then you quote scriptures which you believe tell us that God expects us to do the impossible.
The scriptures are not wrong but your ideas as to what they say is wrong. You are still in the flesh if you think you must do something in the flesh.
I am not in the flesh since I place no confidence in it. The flesh cannot please God because it still sins.
You are still in the flesh if you still think you are not justified before God by what He did on the cross. If you are not living your life in faith then you are living it in your flesh.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death
The flesh follows the law of sin and death, but those in the Spirit are free from the law.
What I have copied and pasted comes directly from the Bible. This is the apostle Paul's teachings to the church. If they were impossible to live by he would not have written them.
If you are sinning over and over the same sin then you are not in the Spirit. Christ gave us the power to overcome sin. Without Him we could do nothing and would be lost forever. I have already written this in reply to the other post. Please refer to my previous post.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth.
Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.1CO 5:11-13
By the above scriptures you can read what Christians are suppose to do to them who constantly commit sin.
Yes,
Grace is a wonderful thing and we are blessed to be living in the church age. Paul states it plainly that we are no longer under the Law of sin. Grace has set us free from that horrible bondage. It has enabled us to overcome as Christ did. The drunkard is no longer chained to the bottle, or the drug addict to the pills, etc. Grace can set them free and empower them to do what they once could not do in the flesh. For there was no power in the Law.
We would not know what sin was if not for the law. Where there is no law, there is no sin. There was no sin in the Garden until God said, don't eat from this tree! Once they had eaten, they had sinned. You see?
dayspring08
dayspring08, You said "So we rely completely on Him for the power to overcome sin. He gave us that power through and by the Holy Ghost."
Since you say that God gave you the power to stop sinning then why haven't you stopped sinning? Is the power He gave you not powerful enought?
If what you say is the truth there would be people on this earth that never sin any longer. Do you know of any?
You say we rely COMPLETELY on HIM, but in the same vain you say we must stop sinning by our own power.
That is a mixed message.
: Charles Sloan Sat Feb 02, 2008 - 23:23:07
: Robert Pate Fri Feb 01, 2008 - 21:32:46
Charles Sloan
No, I am not following "The Apostles Doctrine" and neither are you Charles.
Did the Apostles follow the apostlesdoctrine?
May I ask what the apostles doctrine is?
Thank you,
dayspring08
: RichardBurger Sun Feb 03, 2008 - 07:32:22
dayspring08, You said "So we rely completely on Him for the power to overcome sin. He gave us that power through and by the Holy Ghost."
Since you say that God gave you the power to stop sinning then why haven't you stopped sinning? Is the power He gave you not powerful enought?
If what you say is the truth there would be people on this earth that never sin any longer. Do you know of any?
You say we rely COMPLETELY on HIM, but in the same vain you say we must stop sinning by our own power.
I'm sorry but it's not a mixed message. Are you saying that you don't sin?
There is sin and there is SIN. Do you know the difference between them? I think that may be why you see my posts as mixed messages.
dayspring08
: dayspring08 Sun Feb 03, 2008 - 07:33:05
: Charles Sloan Sat Feb 02, 2008 - 23:23:07
: Robert Pate Fri Feb 01, 2008 - 21:32:46
Charles Sloan
No, I am not following "The Apostles Doctrine" and neither are you Charles.
Did the Apostles follow the apostlesdoctrine?
May I ask what the apostles doctrine is?
Thank you,
dayspring08
The apostlesdoctrine is a book that Robert Pate is peddling here.
: Charles Sloan Sun Feb 03, 2008 - 09:56:55
: dayspring08 Sun Feb 03, 2008 - 07:33:05
: Charles Sloan Sat Feb 02, 2008 - 23:23:07
: Robert Pate Fri Feb 01, 2008 - 21:32:46
Charles Sloan
No, I am not following "The Apostles Doctrine" and neither are you Charles.
Did the Apostles follow the apostlesdoctrine?
May I ask what the apostles doctrine is?
Thank you,
dayspring08
The apostlesdoctrine is a book that Robert Pate is peddling here.
Oh, my goodness! ::doh::
dayspring08
: dayspring08 Sun Feb 03, 2008 - 07:56:28
: RichardBurger Sun Feb 03, 2008 - 07:32:22
dayspring08, You said "So we rely completely on Him for the power to overcome sin. He gave us that power through and by the Holy Ghost."
Since you say that God gave you the power to stop sinning then why haven't you stopped sinning? Is the power He gave you not powerful enought?
If what you say is the truth there would be people on this earth that never sin any longer. Do you know of any?
You say we rely COMPLETELY on HIM, but in the same vain you say we must stop sinning by our own power.
I'm sorry but it's not a mixed message. Are you saying that you don't sin?
There is sin and there is SIN. Do you know the difference between them? I think that may be why you see my posts as mixed messages.
dayspring08
Now, now, I asked two questions and you did not answer either one of them. But now you expect me to answer yours. A little one sided isn't it?
You asked, "Are you saying that you don't sin?"
My answer; no, I have NEVER said that. --- I HAVE said we still sin in the flesh and will always sin in the flesh. --- How you can equate that to my saying I don't sin is amazing.
However, God says I am cleansed, justified, sanctified and saved because I trust in Him; in what He did on the cross.
My faith is in the promise of God, "in Christ." That his work on the cross pays for ALL of my sins in the flesh. --- I am placed "in Christ" by the Holy Spirit. When God sees me, He sees me through Christ and I am sinless.
Don't you know that flesh and blood will never enter heaven? You must be born again of the Holy Spirit. It is the Spirit that does not sin and will enter heaven, later to be joined to a resurrected body like Christ has. -- Don't you know that the only sin that condemns a person in this age of God's grace is the sin of unbelief; unbelief in what Jesus accomplished on the cross (John 3:16-18 - 16:8-9). If you think your sin are condeming you, then you do not believe in Jesus.
You are the one telling me that God has given you the power to not sin in the flesh ""indicating"" that others who sin are either not saved or not using the power. --- And then, when I asked you if you still sin you said yes.
Why are you on this forum preaching that others must stop sinning when you haven't?
dayspring08
Charles would like for you to think that is why I am on the forum. "To peddle my book" He loves to put me down.
The reason that I am on the forum is to further the "Historical Gospel" It is the same reason that I wrote the book. I have a web site if you would like to visit it. http://www.theapostlesdoctrine.com
I don't make any money on the book. Charles would like for you to think that because of my book sales that I own several mansions, a jet plane, a couple of yachts, a vacation home in the Bahamas. etc.
: Robert Pate Sun Feb 03, 2008 - 12:51:20Charles would like for you to think that because of my book sales that I own several mansions, a jet plane, a couple of yachts, a vacation home in the Bahamas. etc.
Not quite Robert, but just as you demonstrated you are here to peddle your book.
: RichardBurger Sun Feb 03, 2008 - 12:49:01
: dayspring08 Sun Feb 03, 2008 - 07:56:28
: RichardBurger Sun Feb 03, 2008 - 07:32:22
dayspring08, You said "So we rely completely on Him for the power to overcome sin. He gave us that power through and by the Holy Ghost."
Since you say that God gave you the power to stop sinning then why haven't you stopped sinning? Is the power He gave you not powerful enought?
If what you say is the truth there would be people on this earth that never sin any longer. Do you know of any?
You say we rely COMPLETELY on HIM, but in the same vain you say we must stop sinning by our own power.
I'm sorry but it's not a mixed message. Are you saying that you don't sin?
There is sin and there is SIN. Do you know the difference between them? I think that may be why you see my posts as mixed messages.
dayspring08
Now, now, I asked two questions and you did not answer either one of them. But now you expect me to answer yours. A little one sided isn't it?
You asked, "Are you saying that you don't sin?"
My answer; no, I have NEVER said that. --- I HAVE said we still sin in the flesh and will always sin in the flesh. --- How you can equate that to my saying I don't sin is amazing.
However, God says I am cleansed, justified, sanctified and saved because I trust in Him; in what He did on the cross.
My faith is in the promise of God, "in Christ." That his work on the cross pays for ALL of my sins in the flesh. --- I am placed "in Christ" by the Holy Spirit. When God sees me, He sees me through Christ and I am sinless.
Don't you know that flesh and blood will never enter heaven? You must be born again of the Holy Spirit. It is the Spirit that does not sin and will enter heaven, later to be joined to a resurrected body like Christ has. -- Don't you know that the only sin that condemns a person in this age of God's grace is the sin of unbelief; unbelief in what Jesus accomplished on the cross (John 3:16-18 - 16:8-9). If you think your sin are condeming you, then you do not believe in Jesus.
You are the one telling me that God has given you the power to not sin in the flesh ""indicating"" that others who sin are either not saved or not using the power. --- And then, when I asked you if you still sin you said yes.
Why are you on this forum preaching that others must stop sinning when you haven't?
It's obvious to me that you have only half or less of a Bible. Do you honestly think you can separate your sins from yourself? That is ridiculous.
If you are sinning God sees that sin! If you don't ask for forgivesness and forsake that sin, it will cost you your soul.James1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But
be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein , he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
James 2:18
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?Does your Bible have the book of James in it or have you took it out? Why do you not believe the Bible?
I have witnessed to many people like you and it's usually unfruitful and useless.
dayspring08
: dayspring08 Sun Feb 03, 2008 - 17:46:33
: RichardBurger Sun Feb 03, 2008 - 12:49:01
: dayspring08 Sun Feb 03, 2008 - 07:56:28
: RichardBurger Sun Feb 03, 2008 - 07:32:22
dayspring08, You said "So we rely completely on Him for the power to overcome sin. He gave us that power through and by the Holy Ghost."
Since you say that God gave you the power to stop sinning then why haven't you stopped sinning? Is the power He gave you not powerful enought?
If what you say is the truth there would be people on this earth that never sin any longer. Do you know of any?
You say we rely COMPLETELY on HIM, but in the same vain you say we must stop sinning by our own power.
I'm sorry but it's not a mixed message. Are you saying that you don't sin?
There is sin and there is SIN. Do you know the difference between them? I think that may be why you see my posts as mixed messages.
dayspring08
Now, now, I asked two questions and you did not answer either one of them. But now you expect me to answer yours. A little one sided isn't it?
You asked, "Are you saying that you don't sin?"
My answer; no, I have NEVER said that. --- I HAVE said we still sin in the flesh and will always sin in the flesh. --- How you can equate that to my saying I don't sin is amazing.
However, God says I am cleansed, justified, sanctified and saved because I trust in Him; in what He did on the cross.
My faith is in the promise of God, "in Christ." That his work on the cross pays for ALL of my sins in the flesh. --- I am placed "in Christ" by the Holy Spirit. When God sees me, He sees me through Christ and I am sinless.
Don't you know that flesh and blood will never enter heaven? You must be born again of the Holy Spirit. It is the Spirit that does not sin and will enter heaven, later to be joined to a resurrected body like Christ has. -- Don't you know that the only sin that condemns a person in this age of God's grace is the sin of unbelief; unbelief in what Jesus accomplished on the cross (John 3:16-18 - 16:8-9). If you think your sin are condeming you, then you do not believe in Jesus.
You are the one telling me that God has given you the power to not sin in the flesh ""indicating"" that others who sin are either not saved or not using the power. --- And then, when I asked you if you still sin you said yes.
Why are you on this forum preaching that others must stop sinning when you haven't?
It's obvious to me that you have only half or less of a Bible. Do you honestly think you can separate your sins from yourself? That is ridiculous. If you are sinning God sees that sin! If you don't ask for forgivesness and forsake that sin, it will cost you your soul.
James1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein , he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Does your Bible have the book of James in it or have you took it out? Why do you not believe the Bible?
I have witnessed to many people like you and it's usually unfruitful and useless.
dayspring08
Martin Luther said the book of James is a book of Straw. It is totally void of the grace of God and filled with the law. ---- And he was right.
The Book of James was written to the Jews (James 1:1) who were under the law. It was not written to the grace church.
dayspring08, I believe the Bible. When it says who the book was written to I accept it. I don't say it was written to everyone else. --- If you say it was written to the Gentiles in the grace church then you obviously don't believe James in chapter 1, verse 1.
So who is it that does not believe the Bible?
: dayspring08 Sun Feb 03, 2008 - 17:46:33
: RichardBurger Sun Feb 03, 2008 - 12:49:01
: dayspring08 Sun Feb 03, 2008 - 07:56:28
: RichardBurger Sun Feb 03, 2008 - 07:32:22
dayspring08, You said "So we rely completely on Him for the power to overcome sin. He gave us that power through and by the Holy Ghost."
Since you say that God gave you the power to stop sinning then why haven't you stopped sinning? Is the power He gave you not powerful enought?
If what you say is the truth there would be people on this earth that never sin any longer. Do you know of any?
You say we rely COMPLETELY on HIM, but in the same vain you say we must stop sinning by our own power.
I'm sorry but it's not a mixed message. Are you saying that you don't sin?
There is sin and there is SIN. Do you know the difference between them? I think that may be why you see my posts as mixed messages.
dayspring08
Now, now, I asked two questions and you did not answer either one of them. But now you expect me to answer yours. A little one sided isn't it?
You asked, "Are you saying that you don't sin?"
My answer; no, I have NEVER said that. --- I HAVE said we still sin in the flesh and will always sin in the flesh. --- How you can equate that to my saying I don't sin is amazing.
However, God says I am cleansed, justified, sanctified and saved because I trust in Him; in what He did on the cross.
My faith is in the promise of God, "in Christ." That his work on the cross pays for ALL of my sins in the flesh. --- I am placed "in Christ" by the Holy Spirit. When God sees me, He sees me through Christ and I am sinless.
Don't you know that flesh and blood will never enter heaven? You must be born again of the Holy Spirit. It is the Spirit that does not sin and will enter heaven, later to be joined to a resurrected body like Christ has. -- Don't you know that the only sin that condemns a person in this age of God's grace is the sin of unbelief; unbelief in what Jesus accomplished on the cross (John 3:16-18 - 16:8-9). If you think your sin are condeming you, then you do not believe in Jesus.
You are the one telling me that God has given you the power to not sin in the flesh ""indicating"" that others who sin are either not saved or not using the power. --- And then, when I asked you if you still sin you said yes.
Why are you on this forum preaching that others must stop sinning when you haven't?
It's obvious to me that you have only half or less of a Bible. Do you honestly think you can separate your sins from yourself? That is ridiculous. If you are sinning God sees that sin! If you don't ask for forgivesness and forsake that sin, it will cost you your soul.
James1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein , he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Does your Bible have the book of James in it or have you took it out? Why do you not believe the Bible?
I have witnessed to many people like you and it's usually unfruitful and useless.
dayspring08
If you will read your Bible you will see that James is talking about Abrahams works of offering up his son proving his faith and it made him righteous.
But Abraham was accounted as righteous **before** his son was born, before he had done any works at all. He was accounted as righteous because he believed God.
: Robert Pate Fri Feb 01, 2008 - 21:32:46
Charles Sloan
No, I am not following "The Apostles Doctrine" and neither are you Charles.
Did the Apostles follow the apostlesdoctrine?
Charles Sloan
The apostles doctrine is all that the apostles taught and believed. I suppose they followed their own doctrines. But some had trouble with the law. If you had been following the law (the Jewish religion) all of your life and along comes Paul and says scrap it, I think that would cause some problems
: Robert Pate Mon Feb 04, 2008 - 10:57:31
Charles Sloan
The apostles doctrine is all that the apostles taught and believed. I suppose they followed their own doctrines. But some had trouble with the law. If you had been following the law (the Jewish religion) all of your life and along comes Paul and says scrap it, I think that would cause some problems
So no one followed the apostlesdoctrine except the Apostles, well actually only Paul?
Does that mean you only accept the writtings of Paul, and not the other Apostles?
: Charles Sloan Mon Feb 04, 2008 - 11:35:56
: Robert Pate Mon Feb 04, 2008 - 10:57:31
Charles Sloan
The apostles doctrine is all that the apostles taught and believed. I suppose they followed their own doctrines. But some had trouble with the law. If you had been following the law (the Jewish religion) all of your life and along comes Paul and says scrap it, I think that would cause some problems
So no one followed the apostlesdoctrine except the Apostles, well actually only Paul?
Does that mean you only accept the writtings of Paul, and not the other Apostles?
Sorry if I am butting in but didn't James, Peter and John agree to stop going to the Gentiles and let Paul go to them?-- If Paul was/is the Apostle to the Gentiles, and James, Peter and John agreed to go only to the Jews then why is the grace church built on Peter? ---- (Galatians 2:7-10)
Charles Sloan
We all have our favorite books of the Bible, I prefer the writings of Paul. If you have a law based theology you would probably like James.
: RichardBurger Mon Feb 04, 2008 - 13:35:33Sorry if I am butting in but didn't James, Peter and John agree to stop going to the Gentiles and let Paul go to them?-- If Paul was/is the Apostle to the Gentiles, and James, Peter and John agreed to go only to the Jews then why is the grace church built on Peter? ---- (Galatians 2:7-10)
Does that mean that only Paul's writtings are consider inspired?
: Robert Pate Mon Feb 04, 2008 - 13:39:01
Charles Sloan
We all have our favorite books of the Bible, I prefer the writings of Paul. If you have a law based theology you would probably like James.
I prefer the New Testament, I try not to divorce books from the other books of the Covenant.
: Charles Sloan Mon Feb 04, 2008 - 13:39:28
: RichardBurger Mon Feb 04, 2008 - 13:35:33Sorry if I am butting in but didn't James, Peter and John agree to stop going to the Gentiles and let Paul go to them?-- If Paul was/is the Apostle to the Gentiles, and James, Peter and John agreed to go only to the Jews then why is the grace church built on Peter? ---- (Galatians 2:7-10)
Does that mean that only Paul's writtings are consider inspired?
I never said anything about, or brought up, ""inspired.""
I believe the Bible is given to us by God. I believe that James, Peter and John agreed to go to the Jews while Paul went to the Gentiles. -- In other words I believe the words written in the Bible. How about you? -- My question is a vailid one, why do people think the grace church is built on Peter? -- Please answer the question if you know.
RichardBurger
I think that there was contention between Paul and some of the other apostles because of Paul's doctrine of grace. The apostles that were going to the Jews had a doctrine of law and grace. I am convinced of this. A good part of Paul's writings is in defense of his doctrine of grace without the works of the law. It was a continuous fight. Just like today on this Forum.
: Harold Mon Jan 28, 2008 - 16:45:57
: Robert Pate Sat Jan 26, 2008 - 17:28:10
Religion is a terrible thing, it causes men to focus on other things than Christ.
A religious person's main preoccupation is their religion or spirituality and how they might live a life pleasing to God. The gospel of Jesus Christ is of little to no interest to them. Jesus Christ is the only one that has ever lived a life pleasing to God. All others are sinners and are not capable of leading a life that is pleasing to God. The only way that a person can please God is by having faith in his son Jesus Christ. For a person to please God one must be able to keep all of the commandments and ordinances of God's Holy law, which is impossible for them to do because they are still in the flesh of Adam and are in a fallen condition. Total Christian sanctification does not take place in this life. We are sinners until the day that we die and are made complete when we are with Christ. Religion is basically man's belief and apparent absence of faith in the fact that God has already dealt with his sin problem in the person of Jesus Christ. Lack of faith in the work of Christ (which is the gospel) leaves him with a vacuum in his life that he fills with his religion that gives him the desire to deal with his own sin problem and to establish his own righteousness and spirituality as he sees fit. This is a pride problem that will send multitudes to hell.
Thomas Jefferson said, "I don't find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature. The greatest enemies of Jesus are the doctrines and creeds of the church. It would be more pardonable to believe in no God at all than to blasphemy him with the atrocious writings of the theologians. John Calvin was a malignant Spirit."
John Adams said, "Nowhere in the gospels do we find a precept for creeds, confessions, oaths, doctrines and a whole boat load of other foolish trumpery than we find Christianity encumbered with."
Abraham Lincoln said, "Christianity is not my religion. I can never give asset to the long complicated statements of Christian dogma."
Most Christian seminaries teach systematic theology. There is no system to the gospel. Systematic theology does not teach the life of Christ for the believer. This leaves a vacuum in the believer's life and doctrine that will cause them to try to fill this vacuum with their own lives and religion. Romans chapters 5 and 6 makes it clear that Christ was the new Adam and representative of the human race. All that Christ did was for us and in our name and on our behalf. We are saved by his life as well as his death.
One of the attributes of religion is pride. Religious people are proud and easily offended especially when someone says something negative about their religion, church affiliation, or denomination. Many religious people want salvation but they want it on their terms or conditions. the conditions are usually that God must accept their pious lives, their works, their rituals, or something that they do or have become. They reject God's way of salvation which is the gospel and go about to establish their own way. The scripture says, "Their is a way that seems right unto a man but it leads to death and destruction." Religion is the natural way, it's the way that seems right unto a man. Do good works, live a clean life and I will be accepted. If this is the way, then Christ lived and died in vain. There is only one way to be saved and accepted and that is by the gospel.
Every year there are numerous seminars on how to become a better Christian or how to live the higher victorious Christian life. These seminars try to teach how you can become a better Christian and have a better relationship with your wife, your children, others and God. They imply that the trouble is with the believer and his sin problem and they have the answers about what to do about it. The gospel is usually rejected and the sin problem is now the believer's problem and it is his responsibility to deal with it. This is a terrible burden to bear because it places one under the law. The teaching emphasizes that you must confess your sins more, you must read your Bible more, you must give more, you must be more committed, you must, you must, you must. The rules and instructions are endless. Sometimes they give you hundreds of pages and diagrams on how to be a more dedicated Christian. This doesn't really help with the sin problem but rather breeds more sin because the teaching is subjective and causes one to look to themselves for strength and direction.
The Pharisees that Jesus referred to as hypocrites, took the Ten Commandments and came up with over six hundred rules for holy living. Traditional Christianity does basically the same thing. It is called living by the letter of the law. The apostle Paul said, "Do you hear the law?" Do you understand what is required? To say that religion causes a person to be subjective may be a understatement. Satan loves this kind of subjective teaching it turns ones eyes away from Christ who is our righteousness and upon
themselves.
A favorite cliche among many evangelicals is..... "What is Christ doing in your life?" This doctrine is basically Roman Catholicism. My question is why would a sinless Christ want to live his life through a depraved sinner? Or perhaps you think that you have gotten the sin out and now you are righteous. The work of Christ is a finished work. To mix up or to confuse the work of Christ with the work of the Holy Spirit is heresy. Christ is present in the Holy Spirit but his work is a finished work. The work of the Spirit is ongoing in the life of the believer.
Elitism is promoted in many religious circles. Many times a pastor will relate to a congregation how he had a supernatural experience from God when he was called into the ministry, which was not really supernatural at all. It is very hard to refute someone that believes that they have had a supernatural experience from God. This sets the stage for elitism and the formation of a religious hierarchy within the congregation. This practice is very common in many congregations. The fundamental belief is that you must attain to a higher level of spirituality so that you will become more useful to the Lord and to the church like the pastor is. The apostle Paul referred to this type of teaching as being in bondage to the law.
There is no peace or rest in religion because you never know when you have done enough to be acceptable to God. Many times pastors will tell their congregations that the Lord cannot use them if they are not a fit vessel. How fit must you be? How often must you pray? How often must you confess your sins? How often must you go to church? How much good works must you do? There is no answer. What is acceptable? When have you pleased the Lord? You must strive for perfection, which is not attainable, or the Lord will not be pleased.
Religion is divisive and causes division. This is why there are more than 79 different religious denominations or branches of religion in the United States. Every religion has their own idea of how to believe which is usually a law based theology and not based on the historical gospel of Jesus Christ. the gospel unites and puts us all in the same boat. In the gospel we are all sinners that are trusting in Christ to save us. In religion there are the elite that think that they are better than others or have attained into something.
The Gospel that Saves
There is no religion in the gospel. the gospel is about Jesus Christ, his work, his attainment, his perfect life, his victory over sin, his crucifixion. The gospel is about God revealing himself to man in the person of Jesus Christ. The gospel is about how God in the person of Jesus Christ clothed himself in human flesh and became one with us, but not one of us.
The old Adam brings sin and death. The new Adam brings righteousness and eternal life. The old Adam breaks God's Holy Law. The new Adam restores and fulfills it. The gospel is about how God embraced our humanity and took it to the cross and put it to death. Paul said, "I have been crucified with Christ nevertheless I live." In Jesus Christ we have been justified, sanctified and redeemed. 1st Corinthians 1:30. All that Jesus Christ is, and all that he has done, is ours by faith alone.
And thus the Robert Religion and denomination, by definition you make yourself a religion. You have rules that must be followed.
FTL
Harold, Please state the RULES Robert must follow. I want to see if I am in what you call his religion. If you cannot state his rules then you cannot say he has any.
: RichardBurger Mon Feb 04, 2008 - 13:48:15
: Charles Sloan Mon Feb 04, 2008 - 13:39:28
: RichardBurger Mon Feb 04, 2008 - 13:35:33Sorry if I am butting in but didn't James, Peter and John agree to stop going to the Gentiles and let Paul go to them?-- If Paul was/is the Apostle to the Gentiles, and James, Peter and John agreed to go only to the Jews then why is the grace church built on Peter? ---- (Galatians 2:7-10)
Does that mean that only Paul's writtings are consider inspired?
I never said anything about, or brought up, ""inspired.""
I believe the Bible is given to us by God. I believe that James, Peter and John agreed to go to the Jews while Paul went to the Gentiles. -- In other words I believe the words written in the Bible. How about you? -- My question is a vailid one, why do people think the grace church is built on Peter? -- Please answer the question if you know.
I never heard of a "grace church", as if there are more than one. But Peter was the if Apostle sent to the Gentiles if I remember correctly. And the first sermon delievered on the day of Pentecost was from Peter as well. So I believe a case can be made that Peter was the founding Apostles for the church. Even Jesus commissioned Peter specifically to feed the flock (John 21:15-17).
But you are rabbit trailing my question, do you consider the writtings of Peter, James, Jude, etc. of the same inspiration as the writtings of Paul?
Charles Sloan
The whole purpose of the Bible is to reveal Jesus Christ and his gospel of grace. If a book in the New Testament Bible does not reveal Jesus Christ and his gospel of grace I am not sure that it is inspired.
: RichardBurger Sun Feb 03, 2008 - 18:59:54
: dayspring08 Sun Feb 03, 2008 - 17:46:33
: RichardBurger Sun Feb 03, 2008 - 12:49:01
: dayspring08 Sun Feb 03, 2008 - 07:56:28
: RichardBurger Sun Feb 03, 2008 - 07:32:22
dayspring08, You said "So we rely completely on Him for the power to overcome sin. He gave us that power through and by the Holy Ghost."
Since you say that God gave you the power to stop sinning then why haven't you stopped sinning? Is the power He gave you not powerful enought?
If what you say is the truth there would be people on this earth that never sin any longer. Do you know of any?
You say we rely COMPLETELY on HIM, but in the same vain you say we must stop sinning by our own power.
I'm sorry but it's not a mixed message. Are you saying that you don't sin?
There is sin and there is SIN. Do you know the difference between them? I think that may be why you see my posts as mixed messages.
dayspring08
Now, now, I asked two questions and you did not answer either one of them. But now you expect me to answer yours. A little one sided isn't it?
You asked, "Are you saying that you don't sin?"
My answer; no, I have NEVER said that. --- I HAVE said we still sin in the flesh and will always sin in the flesh. --- How you can equate that to my saying I don't sin is amazing.
However, God says I am cleansed, justified, sanctified and saved because I trust in Him; in what He did on the cross.
My faith is in the promise of God, "in Christ." That his work on the cross pays for ALL of my sins in the flesh. --- I am placed "in Christ" by the Holy Spirit. When God sees me, He sees me through Christ and I am sinless.
Don't you know that flesh and blood will never enter heaven? You must be born again of the Holy Spirit. It is the Spirit that does not sin and will enter heaven, later to be joined to a resurrected body like Christ has. -- Don't you know that the only sin that condemns a person in this age of God's grace is the sin of unbelief; unbelief in what Jesus accomplished on the cross (John 3:16-18 - 16:8-9). If you think your sin are condeming you, then you do not believe in Jesus.
You are the one telling me that God has given you the power to not sin in the flesh ""indicating"" that others who sin are either not saved or not using the power. --- And then, when I asked you if you still sin you said yes.
Why are you on this forum preaching that others must stop sinning when you haven't?
It's obvious to me that you have only half or less of a Bible. Do you honestly think you can separate your sins from yourself? That is ridiculous. If you are sinning God sees that sin! If you don't ask for forgivesness and forsake that sin, it will cost you your soul.
James1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein , he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Does your Bible have the book of James in it or have you took it out? Why do you not believe the Bible?
I have witnessed to many people like you and it's usually unfruitful and useless.
dayspring08
Martin Luther said the book of James is a book of Straw. It is totally void of the grace of God and filled with the law. ---- And he was right.
The Book of James was written to the Jews (James 1:1) who were under the law. It was not written to the grace church.
dayspring08, I believe the Bible. When it says who the book was written to I accept it. I don't say it was written to everyone else. --- If you say it was written to the Gentiles in the grace church then you obviously don't believe James in chapter 1, verse 1.
So who is it that does not believe the Bible?
Yeah, Martin Luther did a lot of talking about a lot of things but he wasn't always right. Other books in the Bible back up what James has written. For instance the book of Romans - that you refuse to digest.
Quite frankly I am tired of ::beatingdeadhorse::
I don't think we need to discuss anything any further. I will leave you to believe what makes you happy.
dayspring
: Charles Sloan Mon Feb 04, 2008 - 14:00:18
: RichardBurger Mon Feb 04, 2008 - 13:48:15
: Charles Sloan Mon Feb 04, 2008 - 13:39:28
: RichardBurger Mon Feb 04, 2008 - 13:35:33Sorry if I am butting in but didn't James, Peter and John agree to stop going to the Gentiles and let Paul go to them?-- If Paul was/is the Apostle to the Gentiles, and James, Peter and John agreed to go only to the Jews then why is the grace church built on Peter? ---- (Galatians 2:7-10)
Does that mean that only Paul's writtings are consider inspired?
I never said anything about, or brought up, ""inspired.""
I believe the Bible is given to us by God. I believe that James, Peter and John agreed to go to the Jews while Paul went to the Gentiles. -- In other words I believe the words written in the Bible. How about you? -- My question is a vailid one, why do people think the grace church is built on Peter? -- Please answer the question if you know.
I never heard of a "grace church", as if there are more than one. But Peter was the if Apostle sent to the Gentiles if I remember correctly. And the first sermon delievered on the day of Pentecost was from Peter as well. So I believe a case can be made that Peter was the founding Apostles for the church. Even Jesus commissioned Peter specifically to feed the flock (John 21:15-17).
But you are rabbit trailing my question, do you consider the writtings of Peter, James, Jude, etc. of the same inspiration as the writtings of Paul?
Since you will not acknowledge what Paul wrote in Gal. it means that you do not believe what he wrote. Doesn't that mean you do not think the book of Galatians 2:7-10 is inspired?
I will answer your question. Yes, I consider the writings of Peter, James, Jude, etc. to have the same inspiration as Paul's writings. They were all men of God. --- But I do not think you can believe one and not the other. THEREFORE there must be a reason for differences. Only when you understand """WHY""" the reasons can you see why they exist.
For example; What James wrote in the book of James was written to the Jews (James 1:1)who were given the law. It was not written to the Gentiles who were not given the law. If anyone insists that the book of James was written to the Gentiles then they ignore what James wrote in James 1:1 making James a liar.
Read Eph. 3:2 The church of today is the church in the dispensation of the grace of God
Therefore the grace church.
Read Titus 3:7 The church of today is justified by His Grace
Therefore the grace church.
Just to name a few.
: Robert Pate Mon Feb 04, 2008 - 14:11:06
Charles Sloan
The whole purpose of the Bible is to reveal Jesus Christ and his gospel of grace. If a book in the New Testament Bible does not reveal Jesus Christ and his gospel of grace I am not sure that it is inspired.
This is what I am getting at, and thank you for your honesty.
Is there some books you believe not to be inspired?
Charles Sloan
Not really sure. But because of the gospel we have the freedom to examine all things and to judge all things. We even have the freedom to be wrong.
: Robert Pate Mon Feb 04, 2008 - 16:35:44
Charles Sloan
Not really sure. But because of the gospel we have the freedom to examine all things and to judge all things. We even have the freedom to be wrong.
I think you need to submit to the Scripture as the greatest and highest authority, not judge them based on your interpretation of what the gospel is. That is where I think all your trouble and disagreements are stemming from. I believe you have made your understanding of the gospel law, reinvented the Bible as a result. Although I agree with your views on our complete need for dependency on Christ, I cannot agree with your theology and dismissal of Scripture. I think you should let the Bible be the Bible, the Word of God to man.
But this is just my thoughts, not meant as an indictment.
Charles Sloan
I use the Bible for what it was intended to be, A witness for Christ. It is not the Christians Thora.
The Bible can be separated into to entities. Law and Gospel. The law says "do," The gospel says, "done" most of the problems are in mixing the do's with the done's.
Christians are not under the law, they are under grace. This means that I am not subject to a lot of religious instructions. The religious find this offensive because they want to be motivated by law. My motivation is grace not law.
: Robert Pate Mon Feb 04, 2008 - 17:03:18Christians are not under the law, they are under grace. This means that I am not subject to a lot of religious instructions. The religious find this offensive because they want to be motivated by law. My motivation is grace not law.
But Robert, there is a law under Christ and faith establishes the law. Otherwise what you are doing is promoting antinomianism. I mean look at those that Jesus rejects on the day of judgement in Matthew 7:23, he calls them workers of iniquity or lawlessness. If there is no law, them why would they be rejected for working lawlessness?
Your hermeneutic renders the simplest passages unreconcilable to the whole of Scripture.
Charles Sloan
We are not called to live by the letter of the law. We are called to live by the Spirit of Christ. Living by the Spirit is how Christ wants us to live. Living by Spirit is a life of gratitude for what Christ has done for us. Living by law means that you are trying to be obedient because you think you have to. Living by Spirit is living in the light of the gospel. In the gospel we are complete in him. We are not trying to be better than what he has made us. Living in the Spirit means that we are resting in his righteousness, we are resting in his work. Living by law means that you are striving to be holy. Living by the Spirit means that we are complete in him.
: Robert Pate Mon Feb 04, 2008 - 17:26:20Living by Spirit is a life of gratitude for what Christ has done for us. Living by law means that you are trying to be obedient because you think you have to.
This is your entire problem, what you believe in is a false dichotomy. It is not an either/or, either you live in gratitude or you try to be obedient. It is both, because of your gratitude you live your life in obedience.
But if you really believe and teach that believers aren't to live their lives better than the sinners they were before they came to the Lord, there is something seriously wrong with you and your doctrine. That is called antinomian heresy, and the grace of God used for licence.
Charles Sloan
Now when did I say that we are to live our lives like we did when we were unsaved sinners? This is what I like about the forum. The religious are always saying that I said things that I have never said. What I did say is that we are to live our lives before the Lord as sinners. He knows that you are a sinner. Do you think he doesn't know that?
We should always be confessing that we don't measure up. We are falling short of what is required. That is unless you think you have attained.
: Robert Pate Mon Feb 04, 2008 - 20:28:45
Charles Sloan
Now when did I say that we are to live our lives like we did when we were unsaved sinners? This is what I like about the forum. The religious are always saying that I said things that I have never said. What I did say is that we are to live our lives before the Lord as sinners. He knows that you are a sinner. Do you think he doesn't know that?
We should always be confessing that we don't measure up. We are falling short of what is required. That is unless you think you have attained.
The religious... does this make you feel better if you can group everyone that doesn't agree with your theology under one stereotype?
So living your life as you did when you were lost is somehow different than living your life as a sinner? Your semantics do not conceal the spirit at work within your teachings very well. Your belief that
"we are not trying to be better than what he has made us" sounds kind of like you are not willing to repent of your sins. God did not make you the sinner that you are, you made yourself a sinner when you rebelled against heaven with your sin. It is not Gods fault because you are fallen, it is your fault. Jesus, Peter, Paul, James, and every preacher through out history said the same thing: "Repent or perish..."
This is a command to you and me alike. Call me religious, legalist, judizer or whatever you want. Just remember I never shunned to tell you the whole counsel of God, neither will I not make light of sin. Which is exactly what you are doing with such unbiblical doctrine as
"Living our lives before the Lord as sinners".
: Charles Sloan Mon Feb 04, 2008 - 20:48:45
: Robert Pate Mon Feb 04, 2008 - 20:28:45
Charles Sloan
Now when did I say that we are to live our lives like we did when we were unsaved sinners? This is what I like about the forum. The religious are always saying that I said things that I have never said. What I did say is that we are to live our lives before the Lord as sinners. He knows that you are a sinner. Do you think he doesn't know that?
We should always be confessing that we don't measure up. We are falling short of what is required. That is unless you think you have attained.
The religious... does this make you feel better if you can group everyone that doesn't agree with your theology under one stereotype?
So living your life as you did when you were lost is somehow different than living your life as a sinner? Your semantics do not conceal the spirit at work within your teachings very well. Your belief that "we are not trying to be better than what he has made us" sounds kind of like you are not willing to repent of your sins. God did not make you the sinner that you are, you made yourself a sinner when you rebelled against heaven with your sin. It is not Gods fault because you are fallen, it is your fault. Jesus, Peter, Paul, James, and every preacher through out history said the same thing: "Repent or perish..."
This is a command to you and me alike. Call me religious, legalist, judizer or whatever you want. Just remember I never shunned to tell you the whole counsel of God, neither will I not make light of sin. Which is exactly what you are doing with such unbiblical doctrine as "Living our lives before the Lord as sinners".
Amazing! The whole counsel of God is that we are sinners and need Him (Jesus) to wash away our sins of the flesh by His blood. We are born in sin, in a body with a sinful nature. With a will to survive at all costs and to have comfort and pleasure at all cost.
Where have you been during your lifetime. Tell me of all the sinless people you have met.
TO ME, you sound like the Pharsee who prayed telling God how wonderful he was. Not like the beggar who prayed admitting he was a sinner and because of it he was justified.
You said, "The religious... does this make you feel better if you can group everyone that doesn't agree with your theology under one stereotype?"
--- That is the black pot calling kettle black. You do the same thing.
Of all your talk about not sinning, be honest with us and yourself and tell us, do you sin? Oh. I get it! You sin but it is not the same as other people's sin; theirs are worse. You can repent and have it forgiven. Repenting has become your license to sin. By the way if you say you still sin then according to your statement that means you made yourself sin and it is because you want to.
One thing I notice about the RELIGIOUS is that they are always writing and talking as if they don't sin any longer, only the others sin. They try to decieve others and only fool themselves. They certainly don't fool God.
Well hello there captain scarecrow, I haven't heard from you in awhile. I figured you were to busy stuffing straw to comment on my exchanges with Pate, but it seems you have caught up on production. So I guess now you are going to be parading the latest and greatest of Richard's
épouvantail à moineaux down the GCM catwalk...
: RichardBurger Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 07:00:09
Amazing! The whole counsel of God is that we are sinners and need Him (Jesus) to wash away our sins of the flesh by His blood. We are born in sin, in a body with a sinful nature. With a will to survive at all costs and to have comfort and pleasure at all cost.
Yeah, and don't forget repentance. Since that seems to be the glaring omission from both you and Pate's so called "Historical Gospel" renditions. The whole counsel would include everything, not just the parts that fit with the antinomian theology that you and your posse are promoting.
: RichardBurger Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 07:00:09Where have you been during your lifetime. Tell me of all the sinless people you have met.
TO ME, you sound like the Pharsee who prayed telling God how wonderful he was. Not like the beggar who prayed admitting he was a sinner and because of it he was justified.
Let me unstuff the fluff here. I never met anyone sinless except Christ my friend, and neither have I said anyone is sinless. Myself or otherwise. Keep the scarecrows in your tare fields, and spare me your garbage.
TO ME and OTHERS on this board you and Pate's doctrines would be found in Jude 1:4, "turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness" Since thats what grace is without repentance.
: RichardBurger Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 07:00:09Of all your talk about not sinning, be honest with us and yourself and tell us, do you sin? Oh. I get it! You sin but it is not the same as other people's sin; theirs are worse. You can repent and have it forgiven. Repenting has become your license to sin. By the way if you say you still sin then according to your statement that means you made yourself sin and it is because you want to.
You keep turning this into me claiming I am without sin. I have never claimed that, if I have quote me. But you can't since this is just another strawman to try and futher promote your antinomian doctrines by characterizing anyone who speaks of repentance as a Pharisee, legalistic, sinless perfectionist, the list goes on and on. But listen captain scarecrow, those same arguments would have to be assigned to Peter, Paul, James, Jude, etc. Since they all said the same thing: "Repent". Are you going call say their call to repentance was a licence for sin?
: RichardBurger Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 07:00:09One thing I notice about the RELIGIOUS is that they are always writing and talking as if they don't sin any longer, only the others sin. They try to decieve others and only fool themselves. They certainly don't fool God.
Scarecrows, scarecrows, everywhere.
: Charles Sloan Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 12:50:09
Well hello there captain scarecrow, I haven't heard from you in awhile. I figured you were to busy stuffing straw to comment on my exchanges with Pate, but it seems you have caught up on production. So I guess now you are going to be parading the latest and greatest of Richard's épouvantail à moineaux down the GCM catwalk...
: RichardBurger Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 07:00:09
Amazing! The whole counsel of God is that we are sinners and need Him (Jesus) to wash away our sins of the flesh by His blood. We are born in sin, in a body with a sinful nature. With a will to survive at all costs and to have comfort and pleasure at all cost.
Yeah, and don't forget repentance. Since that seems to be the glaring omission from both you and Pate's so called "Historical Gospel" renditions. The whole counsel would include everything, not just the parts that fit with the antinomian theology that you and your posse are promoting.
: RichardBurger Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 07:00:09Where have you been during your lifetime. Tell me of all the sinless people you have met.
TO ME, you sound like the Pharsee who prayed telling God how wonderful he was. Not like the beggar who prayed admitting he was a sinner and because of it he was justified.
Let me unstuff the fluff here. I never met anyone sinless except Christ my friend, and neither have I said anyone is sinless. Myself or otherwise. Keep the scarecrows in your tare fields, and spare me your garbage.
TO ME and OTHERS on this board you and Pate's doctrines would be found in Jude 1:4, "turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness" Since thats what grace is without repentance.
: RichardBurger Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 07:00:09Of all your talk about not sinning, be honest with us and yourself and tell us, do you sin? Oh. I get it! You sin but it is not the same as other people's sin; theirs are worse. You can repent and have it forgiven. Repenting has become your license to sin. By the way if you say you still sin then according to your statement that means you made yourself sin and it is because you want to.
You keep turning this into me claiming I am without sin. I have never claimed that, if I have quote me. But you can't since this is just another strawman to try and futher promote your antinomian doctrines by characterizing anyone who speaks of repentance as a Pharisee, legalistic, sinless perfectionist, the list goes on and on. But listen captain scarecrow, those same arguments would have to be assigned to Peter, Paul, James, Jude, etc. Since they all said the same thing: "Repent". Are you going call say their call to repentance was a licence for sin?
: RichardBurger Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 07:00:09One thing I notice about the RELIGIOUS is that they are always writing and talking as if they don't sin any longer, only the others sin. They try to decieve others and only fool themselves. They certainly don't fool God.
Scarecrows, scarecrows, everywhere.
Wonderful! --- I noticed you left out this part of my reply. "Repenting has become your license to sin."
Anyone that acknowledges they are sinful and need the blood of Christ ""ARE,"" in fact, repenting. But the religious can't understand this because it is not a religious ritual.
You said, "Let me unstuff the fluff here. I never met anyone sinless except Christ my friend, and neither have I said anyone is sinless. Myself or otherwise. Keep the scarecrows in your tare fields, and spare me your garbage.
Then why do you say Robert is sinful because he admits that he sins? You have, in the statement above, admitted you still sin too.
To get on a forum and say others are sinning when in fact you sin too fits the definition of a hypocrite doesn't it?
: RichardBurger Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 13:14:48
Wonderful! --- I noticed you left out this part of my reply. "Repenting has become your license to sin."
Maybe you should read the posts instead of just quoting them:
: Charles Sloan Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 12:50:09: RichardBurger Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 07:00:09Of all your talk about not sinning, be honest with us and yourself and tell us, do you sin? Oh. I get it! You sin but it is not the same as other people's sin; theirs are worse. You can repent and have it forgiven. Repenting has become your license to sin. By the way if you say you still sin then according to your statement that means you made yourself sin and it is because you want to.
You keep turning this into me claiming I am without sin. I have never claimed that, if I have quote me. But you can't since this is just another strawman to try and futher promote your antinomian doctrines by characterizing anyone who speaks of repentance as a Pharisee, legalistic, sinless perfectionist, the list goes on and on. But listen captain scarecrow, those same arguments would have to be assigned to Peter, Paul, James, Jude, etc. Since they all said the same thing: "Repent". Are you going call say their call to repentance was a licence for sin?
Now let me reply to one other thing (as if you will actually read it...):
: RichardBurger Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 13:14:48You said, "Let me unstuff the fluff here. I never met anyone sinless except Christ my friend, and neither have I said anyone is sinless. Myself or otherwise. Keep the scarecrows in your tare fields, and spare me your garbage.
Then why do you say Robert is sinful because he admits that he sins? You have, in the statement above, admitted you still sin too.
When did I say that Robert is sinful because he admits that he sins?
Please, point that one out for me.
Theres a huge difference in admitting your sins, and admitting you are living your life as a sinner. And then encouraging others to follow you and do the same. That is called antinomianism, your subtle reactionism to what you consider legalism.
: Robert Pate Mon Jan 28, 2008 - 17:47:41
Harold
Yes, there are rules to follow for salvation here they are. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
This is the one he stated.
To which I replied believe what? But I got no answer.
Also:
Must believe the historical gospel.
Must believe Christ as the new Adam and representative of humanity.
Must believe that God accepts Christ in our name, and we are accepted in him.
There's a few.
FTL
: Charles Sloan Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 13:22:42
: RichardBurger Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 13:14:48
Wonderful! --- I noticed you left out this part of my reply. "Repenting has become your license to sin."
Maybe you should read the posts instead of just quoting them:
: Charles Sloan Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 12:50:09: RichardBurger Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 07:00:09Of all your talk about not sinning, be honest with us and yourself and tell us, do you sin? Oh. I get it! You sin but it is not the same as other people's sin; theirs are worse. You can repent and have it forgiven. Repenting has become your license to sin. By the way if you say you still sin then according to your statement that means you made yourself sin and it is because you want to.
You keep turning this into me claiming I am without sin. I have never claimed that, if I have quote me. But you can't since this is just another strawman to try and futher promote your antinomian doctrines by characterizing anyone who speaks of repentance as a Pharisee, legalistic, sinless perfectionist, the list goes on and on. But listen captain scarecrow, those same arguments would have to be assigned to Peter, Paul, James, Jude, etc. Since they all said the same thing: "Repent". Are you going call say their call to repentance was a licence for sin?
Now let me reply to one other thing:
: RichardBurger Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 13:14:48You said, "Let me unstuff the fluff here. I never met anyone sinless except Christ my friend, and neither have I said anyone is sinless. Myself or otherwise. Keep the scarecrows in your tare fields, and spare me your garbage.
Then why do you say Robert is sinful because he admits that he sins? You have, in the statement above, admitted you still sin too.
When did I say that Robert is sinful because he admits that he sins?
Please, point that one out for me.
Theres a huge difference in admitting your sins, and admitting you are living your life as a sinner. And then encouraging others to follow you and do the same. That is called antinomianism, your subtle reactionism to what you consider legalism.
Well I don't see the difference. --- If you admit you still sin then you are living as a sinner just as much as Robert, myself, and everyone else.
Show me where Robert, or I, encourage others to sin. That is the strawman you are trying to build.
Both Robert, and I, say we are sinners saved by God's grace. But it seems you can't say that. To do so would be YOU telling everyone else to live in sin (your logic). So the religous go around trying to imply they are not living in a body of sinful flesh that sins. They are above that kind of life. Then, out of the other side of their mouth they say they still sin.
I can agree that there is a huge difference in living with God acknowledging you are sinful and those that try and live before God claiming they are not sinning. Those claiming they are not sinning are being deceitful with God.
: RichardBurger Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 13:57:12
I can agree that there is a huge difference in living with God acknowledging you are sinful and those that try and live before God claiming they are not sinning. Those claiming they are not sinning are being deceitful with God.
See this is the problem Richard, no ones saying they are not sinning.
: RichardBurger Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 13:57:12Show me where Robert, or I, encourage others to sin. That is the strawman you are trying to build.
I'm building a strawman, thats funny coming from the master.
Well, you asked me to show you, so here you go:
: Robert Pate Wed Nov 14, 2007 - 19:39:46We are to live our lives before the Lord as sinners. Why? because we fail to obey the law.
That is the antinomian anthem my friend.
: Charles Sloan Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 14:10:04
: RichardBurger Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 13:57:12Show me where Robert, or I, encourage others to sin. That is the strawman you are trying to build.
I'm building a strawman, thats funny coming from the master.
Well, you asked me to show you, so here you go:
: Robert Pate Wed Nov 14, 2007 - 19:39:46We are to live our lives before the Lord as sinners. Why? because we fail to obey the law.
That is the antinomian anthem my friend.
Would you rather try to live your life before Him claiming you are not a sinner?? I don't think He will believe you since you have already admitted you still sin.
: Harold Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 13:35:06
: Robert Pate Mon Jan 28, 2008 - 17:47:41
Harold
Yes, there are rules to follow for salvation here they are. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
This is the one he stated.
To which I replied believe what? But I got no answer.
Also:
Must believe the historical gospel.
Must believe Christ as the new Adam and representative of humanity.
Must believe that God accepts Christ in our name, and we are accepted in him.
There's a few.
FTL
Richard the rules you asked for........
FTL
: RichardBurger Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 14:14:09Would you rather try to live your life before Him claiming you are not a sinner?? I don't think He will believe you since you have already admitted you still sin.
So you have moved from the propaganda tactic of strawmen to using false dichotomy's. Well at least you are making progress, even if it is in the wrong direction.
So according to you I either have to live as a sinner, or I have to live claiming I am not a sinner. Could there be another option of trying to
not live your life as a sinner? Maybe could we add that one to the ballot?
: Charles Sloan Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 16:58:43
: RichardBurger Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 14:14:09Would you rather try to live your life before Him claiming you are not a sinner?? I don't think He will believe you since you have already admitted you still sin.
So you have moved from the propaganda tactic of strawmen to using false dichotomy's. Well at least you are making progress, even if it is in the wrong direction.
So according to you I either have to live as a sinner, or I have to live claiming I am not a sinner. Could there be another option of trying to not live your life as a sinner? Maybe could we add that one to the ballot?
Are you saying you can live your life without sinning. I thought you said you still sin.
The truth is that you are living your life as a sinner and you know it.
No child of God WANTS to sin but they do, and just as Paul admitted he still sined in Romans 7 a child of God must admit that he/she still sins or he/she is being dishonest.
Are you being dishonest???
: RichardBurger Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 21:05:00Are you saying you can live your life without sinning. I thought you said you still sin.
I think it has been made abundantly clear that I have neither said, nor am I saying that. If anyone is being dishonest in this discussion it's obviously you, since no one could have possibly arrived at that conclusion
if they were reading my posts. And yet you continue making these outlandish accusations.
: RichardBurger Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 21:05:00The truth is that you are living your life as a sinner and you know it.
I think you need to bridle your tongue and stop accusing Christians of living lawless lives.
: RichardBurger Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 21:05:00No child of God WANTS to sin but they do, and just as Paul admitted he still sined in Romans 7 a child of God must admit that he/she still sins or he/she is being dishonest.
Are you being dishonest???
I have admitted repeatedly that I am a sinner, but that doesn't seem to satisfy you neither does it curb your accusations of living a lawless life toward a brother Jesus commanded you to love. If anyone should be honestly examining themselves, I suggest that might be you.
But allow me the courtesy to ask you a question since I have answered yours.
Rom 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Question: Do you live after the the flesh (live as a sinner), or do you mortify the deeds of the body?
: Charles Sloan Wed Feb 06, 2008 - 10:21:46
: RichardBurger Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 21:05:00Are you saying you can live your life without sinning. I thought you said you still sin.
I think it has been made abundantly clear that I have neither said, nor am I saying that. If anyone is being dishonest in this discussion it's obviously you, since no one could have possibly arrived at that conclusion if they were reading my posts. And yet you continue making these outlandish accusations.
: RichardBurger Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 21:05:00The truth is that you are living your life as a sinner and you know it.
I think you need to bridle your tongue and stop accusing Christians of living lawless lives.
: RichardBurger Tue Feb 05, 2008 - 21:05:00No child of God WANTS to sin but they do, and just as Paul admitted he still sined in Romans 7 a child of God must admit that he/she still sins or he/she is being dishonest.
Are you being dishonest???
I have admitted repeatedly that I am a sinner, but that doesn't seem to satisfy you neither does it curb your accusations of living a lawless life toward a brother Jesus commanded you to love. If anyone should be honestly examining themselves, I suggest that might be you.
But allow me the courtesy to ask you a question since I have answered yours.
Rom 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Question: Do you live after the the flesh (live as a sinner), or do you mortify the deeds of the body?
No one is accusing you of not being a Christian. We are trying to find why we see this differently. If you are not willing to discuss this in a mature manner then we will stop.
What I am saying is that since you admit you sin in the flesh just like all the rest of us how can you also claim to be living a sinless life? The logic escapes me.
--- How can anyone sin and then claim to be living without sin? ---
Call it what you want, living in sin, living lawlessly, living sinful, the truth is that everyone still sins in the flesh.
Now for your scriptures; "Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."
Romans 8:12, Therefore, brethern, we are debtors --- not to the flesh to live according to the flesh.
The truth is that to live after the flesh is to place confidence in the flesh, confidence in the flesh's ability to stop sinning. That means faith in what a person, living in the flesh, can do to stop sinning. --- A Child of God has placed his/her faith in the cross, that Jesus destroyed sins power to condemn us. This is the difference between living in the flesh and living in the Spirit.
You said, "Do you live after the the flesh (live as a sinner), or do you mortify the deeds of the body?"
Way to go! You want me to say I do not live in the flesh as a sinner. But I, in the flesh, am a sinner, just like everyone else.
--- I mortify the deeds of the body by placing no faith (confidence) in it's abilty to stop sinning. I live after the Spirit and place no confidence in the flesh. Romans 8:1-11
Now how about you? Are you confident that you, in the flesh, can live without commiting a sin?
: RichardBurger Wed Feb 06, 2008 - 12:55:22What I am saying is that since you admit you sin in the flesh just like all the rest of us how can you also claim to be living a sinless life? The logic escapes me.
--- How can anyone sin and then claim to be living without sin? ---
Your are either stupid, mental, or just plain deceitful.
I never claimed to live a sinless life, and I am tired of your blind stupidity and ignorance to my constant defense against your slanderous mischaracterizations. I don't know what is wrong with you, but if you are not even bothering to read my posts before quoting and responding to them I am simply wasting my time discussing this or any topic with you.
Okay, I'm sorry for calling you names and insulting you. But Richard, you are making it very difficult for me to discuss this with you by fashioning me into a strawman who says I am sinless when I never did. I know you would really like me to say that cause it would make it easier to dismiss me as a sinless perfectionist to justify your antinomian doctrines. But I'm sorry that I can't oblige.
I AM NOT SINLESS.I hope you got that this time.
: RichardBurger Wed Feb 06, 2008 - 12:55:22I mortify the deeds of the body by placing no faith (confidence) in it's ability to stop sinning. I live after the Spirit and place no confidence in the flesh. Romans 8:1-11
Now how about you? Are you confident that you, in the flesh, can live without committing a sin?
So you don't actually mortify the deeds of your flesh, but you consider a mental resignation of your flesh to sin as mortification? I believe that upon a study of the Greek you will find Paul was saying he actually mortifies the
deeds of his body, not that he was just making some mental acquiescence to his inability.
As for my confidence I believe in him who will deliver me from this body of death (cf. Rom 7:21-24)
Now since I answered you again, riddle me this:
Rom 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Question: What do you yield yourself to obey, sin unto death or righteousness unto life?
: Charles Sloan Wed Feb 06, 2008 - 13:11:27
: RichardBurger Wed Feb 06, 2008 - 12:55:22What I am saying is that since you admit you sin in the flesh just like all the rest of us how can you also claim to be living a sinless life? The logic escapes me.
--- How can anyone sin and then claim to be living without sin? ---
Your are either stupid, mental, or just plain deceitful.
I never claimed to live a sinless life, and I am tired of your blind stupidity and ignorance to my constant defense against your slanderous mischaracterizations. I don't know what is wrong with you, but if you are not even bothering to read my posts before quoting and responding to them I am simply wasting my time discussing this or any topic with you.
Living a sinless life would be living **without sinning**. Obvously that is not the same as living a life in which a person sins. You got mad at Robert when he said you are living in sin. Logic states that if a person sins then they are not living a sinless life. --- That is the point I have been trying to make. -- You can't claim to be living a sinless lfe if you sin, and everybody sins. Therefore no one is living a sinless life.
If no one is living a sinless life then the opposite has to be true, eveyone is living a life in which they sin and another way to say it is that everyone is living in Sin.
: Charles Sloan Wed Feb 06, 2008 - 14:12:32
Okay, I'm sorry for calling you names and insulting you. But Richard, you are making it very difficult for me to discuss this with you by fashioning me into a strawman who says I am sinless when I never did. I know you would really like me to say that cause it would make it easier to dismiss me as a sinless perfectionist to justify your antinomian doctrines. But I'm sorry that I can't oblige.
I AM NOT SINLESS.
I hope you got that this time.
: RichardBurger Wed Feb 06, 2008 - 12:55:22I mortify the deeds of the body by placing no faith (confidence) in it's ability to stop sinning. I live after the Spirit and place no confidence in the flesh. Romans 8:1-11
Now how about you? Are you confident that you, in the flesh, can live without committing a sin?
So you don't actually mortify the deeds of your flesh, but you consider a mental resignation of your flesh to sin as mortification? I believe that upon a study of the Greek you will find Paul was saying he actually mortifies the deeds of his body, not that he was just making some mental acquiescence to his inability.
As for my confidence I believe in him who will deliver me from this body of death (cf. Rom 7:21-24)
Now since I answered you again, riddle me this:
Rom 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Question: What do you yield yourself to obey, sin unto death or righteousness unto life?
You seem think that disobedience is breaking the law and obedience is keeping the law (not sinning in the flesh). That is what many believe. But God has already taken care of the sins of the flesh part. He has washed them away in the blood of the new covenant. Today, the sin that condemns is the sin of unbelief in Jesus, what He did on the cross. Sin is unbelief in God; to not believe He means what He says and does. I obey by doing as He says to do in Mathew 6:28-29 (NKJV)
28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
John 16:8-9 (NKJ) says that the world will be judged ""because they do not believe in ME.""
8 "And when He has come (The Holy Spirit), He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 "of sin, ****because they do not believe in Me;****
Since I believe in Him my sins do not convict me.
I AM OBEDIENT because I believe in the gospel of grace, that Jesus died on the cross to pay for my sins. --- Now should I start believing He did not pay for ALL my sins on the cross then I have become an un-believer and am sinning.
Sloan, you are a slave to what you let rule over you. --- If you are constantly having to try to keep from sinning, then your sins are ruling over you. You are a servant to your sins-- You quoted "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness --- Your quote says the same thing I said at the first of this paragraph.
I don't let my sins rule over me. Not that I don't have them. But Jesus did away with them on the cross. --- Now, to the religious that means he changed my sinful nature and has made me sinless in the flesh. But I am not stupid, if He changes our sinful nature and we still sin then God must be very weak since He hasn't stopped anyone from sinning. --- So I don't believe God changes our sinful nature. --- I believe God has made a way for those that are sinners to be saved even though they are still sinners. If that is not true then no one is going to be saved since everyone sins.
You asked "Question: What do you yield yourself to obey, sin unto death or righteousness unto life." --- I obey God by believing in His Son, and because I do, God has justified me and given me His righteousness as a free gift, just as Jesus said He would. In other words I BELIEVE GOD.
Charles, You said the following marked ##:
## ----- So you don't actually mortify the deeds of your flesh, but you consider a mental resignation of your flesh to sin as mortification? I believe that upon a study of the Greek you will find Paul was saying he actually mortifies the deeds of his body, not that he was just making some mental acquiescence to his inability. --- As for my confidence I believe in him who will deliver me from this body of death (cf. Rom 7:21-24)
**Oh yes Charles, I actually do mortify the deeds done by my flesh. My flesh is crucified with Jesus. It is dead and buried. The sins, (there will always be sins in the flesh), my body commits have been washed away in God's eyes and I can say I believe in Him who will deliver me from this body of sin (Rom 7:21-24) but not until I leave this body of sin. You have Him delivering you from your body before you die.
Jesus has already delivered us from the penalties of our sins in the flesh. But He doesn't separate us from our sinful bodies until we die.
We have a difference of opinion here Charles. You see a person becoming less sinful in the flesh. But history proves that men do not become less sinful. Even those that are called Christian have persecuted and killed others.
Lets see what Paul really says about his sinful nature, the flesh, in Romans 7: Does he say it is gone and he no longer follows it?
24. O wretched man that I AM! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25. I thank God --- through Jesus Christ our Lord!
26. So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, ***** BUT WITH THE FLESH THE LAW OF SIN. *****
Maybe I can't understand the English language but I believe he said that with his flesh he served the law of sin. --- The same thing I, and Robert, have been saying.
: RichardBurger Thu Feb 07, 2008 - 08:40:01**Oh We have a difference of opinion here Charles. You see a person becoming less sinful in the flesh. But history proves that men do not become less sinful. Even those that are called Christian have persecuted and killed others.
This is at the heart of our differences. You don't believe the believer sins any less then the unbeliever, but I believe that the Christian when indwelt with the Spirit of God is transformed (cf. Rom 12:2) and given a new heart and new spirit (Eze 11:19, 18:31, 36:26). I believe that the believer although they do sin (cf. 1Jo 2:1), will no longer have a desire to drink iniquity as water (cf. Job 15:16) and will instead hunger and thirst for righteousness (cf. Mat 5:6, Jhn 6:35). You seem to depart from the Biblical doctrine of regeneration (cf. Tts 3:5) in favor of depravity.
Indeed many people have killed in the name of Christ and religions. But this is no more an evidence that those doing it were Christians than their claims that God led their charge. Hypocrites are exposed by their actions, not by their words.
Now let me just give a quick number of passages that show there is a changed life in a convert.
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Tts 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, [and] hating one another.
1Pe 4:2-3 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God. For the time past of [our] life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
The passages speak for themselves. If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature (cf. 2Cr 5:17).
: RichardBurger Thu Feb 07, 2008 - 08:40:01Lets see what Paul really says about his sinful nature, the flesh, in Romans 7: Does he say it is gone and he no longer follows it?
24. O wretched man that I AM! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25. I thank God --- through Jesus Christ our Lord!
26. So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, ***** BUT WITH THE FLESH THE LAW OF SIN. *****
Maybe I can't understand the English language but I believe he said that with his flesh he served the law of sin. --- The same thing I, and Robert, have been saying.
I know this is what you and Robert have been promoting, hence my keen interest in this discussion. But lets look at the entire context, and see if you can agree with EVERYTHING Paul says. Not just one half of a sentence.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Do you consent that the law is good?
When you sin is it against your will?
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Do you struggle against sin?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin
Do you serve the law of God with your mind?
Does your mind war against the law of sin in your flesh?
Understand that I don't completely disagree with your explanation of verse 26, I would say looking at the context I would say Paul does NOT follow his sinful nature. But struggles against it, and is taken captive by it AGAINST his will. I don't believe you have any trouble understanding English, but what I believe you might be having trouble with is context.
Charles, I am going to reply to you knowing full well that you might turn around and say I think I have a license to sin. -- But the truth is that I hate sin, just as Paul did. But I find myself in a body that sins, just as Paul did and I seek to be rid of it. But God says His grace is sufficient for me.
## You said; -- I know this is what you and Robert have been promoting, hence my keen interest in this discussion. But lets look at the entire context, and see if you can agree with EVERYTHING Paul says. Not just one half of a sentence.
## Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
## Do you consent that the law is good?
*** YES! It would be wonderful if I could keep it, but I can't. Nor can anyone else.
## When you sin is it against your will?
*** Not all the time, and neither does anyone else, all the time.
## Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
## Do you struggle against sin?
*** In Romans 7:23, Paul does not say he is successful. In fact in verse 25 he indicate that he has given up trying to subject his sinful flesh nature to his will and thanks God for Jesus Christ.
## Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin
## Do you serve the law of God with your mind?
*** Yes, and the law of God in this dispensation, is to believe in Jesus. It is not obedience to the Law of Moses. God already knows we cannot stop our sins of the flesh as long as we are in the flesh (not dead).
Now a question for you. Do you serve the law of sin in the flesh? If you don't, you are greater that Paul.
## Does your mind war against the law of sin in your flesh?
*** This is the same as "Do you struggle against sin?"
*** No I don't struggle with sins of the flesh any longer. I can't, nor can anyone else, win that struggle and there is no longer any need for me to do so. I already have the victory over my sins of the flesh and I thank God for that victory. --- I have entered God's rest. (See Hebrews 4 and notice that the ones that do not enter God's rest are those that are disobedient = do not ""believe,"" verse 3). In verse 10 we see that those that believe have entered God's rest and ceased from their own works just as God did from His. --- Why do others try and make the children of God leave their rest in God and go back to struggling with the flesh? Is it lack of faith?
## Understand that I don't completely disagree with your explanation of verse 26, I would say looking at the context I would say Paul does NOT follow his sinful nature. But struggles against it, and is taken captive by it AGAINST his will. I don't believe you have any trouble understanding English, but what I believe you might be having trouble with is context.
*** Well I don't see that I am having any trouble, thank you! Ha! Ha!
*** Okay, go on to Romans chapter 8. In verse 1 He says the same thing I am saying, "there is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit." --- Paul is saying that a child of God walks in the Spirit, not that he has a choice to do so. --- Now it seems to me that you will understand this to mean walking without sinning in the flesh. I DON"T! It can't mean that since no man can stop sinning in the flesh. Verse 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. ---- You can't be free from it if you still think it can condemn you. verse 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His on Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin;
Note Romans 8, verse 4 &5, If you set your mind on the things of the flesh (to sin or not to sin) then you are walking in the flesh
People are going to have to come down on one side or the other. Either they are free of their sinful nature or they are not. Either they place their faith in Jesus OR in their ability to not sin in the flesh. The only way to be free of the flesh is "in Christ." And that does not mean your sinful nature has changed.
None of the above means that I, or any child of God, intentionally goes out and sins, sins, sins. But, you, myself, and all the rest, cannot stop the sinful thoughts that go through the minds. The same minds that have both curses and blessings, has hate one minute and love the next.
Here, Charles, maybe this will help. ::frustrated::
dayspring08
You two deserve each other. Have fun.
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Fri Feb 08, 2008 - 16:55:21
You two deserve each other. Have fun.
What do you mean by that, WS? Please elaborate.
: RichardBurger Fri Feb 08, 2008 - 13:26:27
Charles, I am going to reply to you knowing full well that you might turn around and say I think I have a license to sin. -- But the truth is that I hate sin, just as Paul did. But I find myself in a body that sins, just as Paul did and I seek to be rid of it. But God says His grace is sufficient for me.
I noticed your mention of 2Cr 12:9, "My grace is sufficient for thee". I would like to point out that sin is not mentioned in the context of this passage. Paul is talking about his infirmities and his "thorn in the flesh", which many (a great many) have used to hedge their sins. But if you were to look into the word "astheneia" or "infirmities" is not describing someones sin or their sinful state. Or with that reasoning you would have Paul stating that the closing of the verse "Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my sins", then concluding the chapter he rebukes the Corinthians for not repenting for their sins. How is someone who glories in their sins going to "bewail many which have sinned"?
That makes no sense.
: RichardBurger Fri Feb 08, 2008 - 13:26:27## Do you struggle against sin?
*** In Romans 7:23, Paul does not say he is successful. In fact in verse 25 he indicate that he has given up trying to subject his sinful flesh nature to his will and thanks God for Jesus Christ.
Paul doesn't say he has given up in verse 25. Much to the contrary, in verse 25 he says with his mind serves the law of God and his flesh serves the LAW of sin. Not that his flesh serves sin. Please note that in the very next chapter he explains that there is no condemnation for Christians who "who walk not after the flesh".
Now I would like to mention another passage from 1Cr 9:27, Paul clearly states "I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection." That doesn't seem like someone who has given up on trying to bring their flesh into subjection. And then he further states "lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway", so the consequence of not bringing yourself into subjection is becoming a castway.
This doesn't sound like someone who has given up, but someone to is continuing to run the race and fight the fight. And someone who knows what the consequence of giving up is.
: RichardBurger Fri Feb 08, 2008 - 13:26:27*** No I don't struggle with sins of the flesh any longer. I can't, nor can anyone else, win that struggle and there is no longer any need for me to do so. I already have the victory over my sins of the flesh and I thank God for that victory. --- I have entered God's rest. (See Hebrews 4 and notice that the ones that do not enter God's rest are those that are disobedient = do not ""believe,"" verse 3). In verse 10 we see that those that believe have entered God's rest and ceased from their own works just as God did from His. --- Why do others try and make the children of God leave their rest in God and go back to struggling with the flesh? Is it lack of faith?
I am just going to briefly comment on your exposition of Herbrews 4. If you read the very next verse after 10 you will see it says "Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.". So either you have entered that rest before everyone else, or you believe for some reason that you
don't have to labor like the rest of us to enter into that rest.
Either way, I believe you should look again at that chapter.
: RichardBurger Fri Feb 08, 2008 - 13:26:27*** Okay, go on to Romans chapter 8. In verse 1 He says the same thing I am saying, "there is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit." --- Paul is saying that a child of God walks in the Spirit, not that he has a choice to do so. --- Now it seems to me that you will understand this to mean walking without sinning in the flesh. I DON"T! It can't mean that since no man can stop sinning in the flesh. Verse 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. ---- You can't be free from it if you still think it can condemn you. verse 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His on Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin;
Richard, Romans 8:1 says "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." not "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who
cannot walk after the flesh, but after the Spirit." So you have effectively rewritten Romans 8:1 to support your argument and made the Paul say something he has neither said not implied.
So again you have eisgeticly inserted your doctrines and changed the text to further justify your antinomianism.
: RichardBurger Fri Feb 08, 2008 - 13:26:27People are going to have to come down on one side or the other. Either they are free of their sinful nature or they are not. Either they place their faith in Jesus OR in their ability to not sin in the flesh. The only way to be free of the flesh is "in Christ." And that does not mean your sinful nature has changed.
This is where I will rest my point. I have already proven that there is a change in the outward behavior earlier in my post with a great number of passages. These passages cannot be dismissed nor ignored, and show clear evidence that either their should be a change in the sinful inclinations in the believer, or that believer needs to examine themselves if they even be in the faith (cf. 2Cr 13:5).
The only way to be free of sin is in death, and to be freed of penalty of sin is in the death of Jesus. We are in complete agreement in that. But once the criminal has been pardoned, a truly penitent criminal will strive to commit crimes no more. That is the change, its a change of heart that brings forth a change of actions (cf. Pro 15:28, Mat 12:35).
Great post, Charles. You systematically dismantled his post, and by appealing to context, clearly demonstrated the errors of utter depravity and antinomian theology. ::manna::
If a person is walking in the Spirit they are not sinning. Well I guess no one walks in the Spirit, since I don't see anyone not sinning. Do you see how impossible that idea is?
As long as people are preaching a person MUST strive to not sin then they are saying a person has to work at not sinning. That means there is no rest in God from their sinful nature. Jesus did not really free people from the burden of their sins (sinful nature). They still have to carry the burden and struggle with them. They are still under the Law of Moses. There is no peace with God since people must continually struggle with their sin nature. They have no victory because they can't stop sinning. --- That means they ARE still in the flesh and not in the Spirit.
Thank God I am free of all that rubbish. I am in Christ. I am walking in faith that Jesus can keep me even when I sin. And if a person is not doing that then they are walking in the fleshly idea that they can stop sinning by their own fleshly choices.
Now that does not mean that I go about trying to sin, sin, sin; It means I no longer feel I must carry the burden of a struggle that Jesus has already won for me; a struggle that you are trying to put me back under.
Make fun of what I say all you want to but I know in whom I believe. I place no confidence (faith, trust, hope) in my flesh to be able to keep from sinning. Therefore I am not in the flesh and am in the Spirit. Read Philippians 3:1-11. You will see that Paul placed no confidence in the flesh. Reading verse 1-11 you will see that he talks about all the religious teachings and the things he did in religion and came to the realization that they were all rubbish.
But if people want to place their confidence (faith, trust, hope) in their religions and their ability to stop sinning then they are placing it in the flesh and are walking in the flesh.
You said; I noticed your mention of 2 Cr 12:9, "My grace is sufficient for thee". I would like to point out that sin is not mentioned in the context of this passage. "Paul is talking about his infirmities and his "thorn in the flesh", which many (a great many) have used to hedge their sins."
First of all I did not mention 2 Cor. 12:9, you did. --- Now you want to beat me down with it. You didn't need to say the above Charles. It is a putdown. It has me trying to hedge my sins. But since you said it you must have meant that I am doing it. Okay, tell me how do you hedges your sins? Oh, I get it! You don't have any to hedge, your sinful nature has changed, and if you do sin you can always pull out the "repentance" license to sin.
As I said, I did not bring up what Paul said in 2 Cor. 7-13. """You did."""
--- I brought up the fact that God's grace is greater than my/our sins. See 1 John 3:18-23. Verse 20 says, "For if our hearts condemn us, God is greater than our hearts and knows all things." Verse 21 says, Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence towards God. Verse 22 says, "And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.' Verse 23 says, "And this is His commandment: that we should """believe""" on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave commandment." --- I am sorry for you if you do not feel His grace is sufficient to cover your sins.
Pardon me for having my confidence towards God and NOT feeling my heart condemning me, that His grace is sufficient to cover my sins with Jesus' blood. Now if you feel, as I do, that His grace is sufficient to cover your sins, then why do you fault me for saying His grace is sufficient for mine?
You said, " Paul doesn't say he has given up in verse 25. Much to the contrary, in verse 25 he says with his mind serves the law of God and his flesh serves the LAW of sin. Not that his flesh serves sin.
Amazing! You said, "Paul said his flesh serves the law of sin, BUT not that his flesh serves sin. And you want to say it doesn't mean his flesh follows the law of sin.
verse 25, ----- So then., with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. ---- Looks like he came to a conclusion to me.
You said, "Please note that in the very next chapter he explains that there is no condemnation for Christians who "who walk not after the flesh".
--- Charles, to you, walking NOT after the flesh is trying not to sin. But everyone sins.
----According to John 3:16-18 the only sin that condemns a person is the sin of unbelief. Therefore walking in the Spirit is walking in faith that Jesus paid for your sins on the cross. You can't walk in the Spirit if you do not believe Jesus paid for your sins.
You said, "I am just going to briefly comment on your exposition of Herbrews 4. If you read the very next verse after 10 you will see it says "Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.". So either you have entered that rest before everyone else, or you believe for some reason that you don't have to labor like the rest of us to enter into that rest.
If you will open your eyes you will see that the writer says in verse 3. "For we who have believed ""do"" enter that rest, as He has said" ---- Note the word "do", it is not future tense. In this chapter
***Romans chapter 8:1-3
1. There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
3. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His on Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin;
You said, "Richard, Romans 8:1 says "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." not "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who cannot walk after the flesh, but after the Spirit." So you have effectively rewritten Romans 8:1 to support your argument and made the Paul say something he has neither said not implied.
You can't be "IN Christ" and not be walking in the Spirit. I'll bet if I said a child of God cannot sin you will take issue with that too.
1 John 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His (God's) seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
Remember what God said to Peter, "do not call what God has cleansed, un-clean."
As to the last part of your reply. You said, "This is where I will rest my point. I have already proven that there is a change in the outward behavior earlier in my post with a great number of passages. These passages cannot be dismissed nor ignored, and show clear evidence that either their should be a change in the sinful inclinations in the believer, or that believer needs to examine themselves if they even be in the faith (cf. 2Cr 13:5).
When a person goes to Christ he/she has already made a change. They have turned TO Christ FROM the flesh. --- But that does not mean they have changed, or can change, their sinful nature.
Many on this forum think as you do and they prove what I am saying about the sinful nature. They do not show love for others. They show no evidence that their sinful inclinations have changed. They are to busy placating their ego by making put down remarks about others and thinking God approves of it. On this very thread there are those that are acting like pack dogs after a prey.
This ends my discussion with you Charles.
: James Rondon Fri Feb 08, 2008 - 17:16:09
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Fri Feb 08, 2008 - 16:55:21
You two deserve each other. Have fun.
What do you mean by that, WS? Please elaborate.
I mean, in order for two things to be opposites, they have to have everything in common except for one key difference. Charles and Richard remind me of each other, except they have radically different soteriologies.
BTW, why wasn't this thread put-in-the-naughty-chair after this:
[quote link=topic=23889.msg461155#msg461155 date=1202325087]
Your are either stupid, mental, or just plain deceitful.
I never claimed to live a sinless life, and I am tired of your blind stupidity and ignorance to my constant defense against your slanderous mischaracterizations. I don't know what is wrong with you, but if you are not even bothering to read my posts before quoting and responding to them I am simply wasting my time discussing this or any topic with you.[/quote]
Are moderators unable to read strikethrough?
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Sun Feb 10, 2008 - 05:08:02
BTW, why wasn't this thread put-in-the-naughty-chair after this:
: Charles Sloan Wed Feb 06, 2008 - 13:11:27
Your are either stupid, mental, or just plain deceitful.
I never claimed to live a sinless life, and I am tired of your blind stupidity and ignorance to my constant defense against your slanderous mischaracterizations. I don't know what is wrong with you, but if you are not even bothering to read my posts before quoting and responding to them I am simply wasting my time discussing this or any topic with you.
Are moderators unable to read strikethrough?
Maybe not because they
can't read strikeout, but
can and
do read the following posts.
: Charles Sloan Wed Feb 06, 2008 - 14:12:32
Okay, I'm sorry for calling you names and insulting you. But Richard, you are making it very difficult for me to discuss this with you by fashioning me into a strawman who says I am sinless when I never did. I know you would really like me to say that cause it would make it easier to dismiss me as a sinless perfectionist to justify your antinomian doctrines. But I'm sorry that I can't oblige.
And just for those who would like to know why I didn't just delete the post in the first place, that was because after I realized that I had crossed with that line the post, it had already been on the board for about an hour. So I didn't think it fair to allow some people to have seen me insult Richard without an apology and just delete the post compared to allowing Richard to fairly read what I had said and see my honest apology.
If you don't agree with my reasoning thats fine. But at least
I was the one reasoning about how was the right way to handle
my own actions.
: Charles Sloan Sun Feb 10, 2008 - 18:58:33
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Sun Feb 10, 2008 - 05:08:02
BTW, why wasn't this thread put-in-the-naughty-chair after this:
: Charles Sloan Wed Feb 06, 2008 - 13:11:27
Your are either stupid, mental, or just plain deceitful.
I never claimed to live a sinless life, and I am tired of your blind stupidity and ignorance to my constant defense against your slanderous mischaracterizations. I don't know what is wrong with you, but if you are not even bothering to read my posts before quoting and responding to them I am simply wasting my time discussing this or any topic with you.
Are moderators unable to read strikethrough?
Maybe not because they can't read strikeout, but can and do read the following posts.
: Charles Sloan Wed Feb 06, 2008 - 14:12:32
Okay, I'm sorry for calling you names and insulting you. But Richard, you are making it very difficult for me to discuss this with you by fashioning me into a strawman who says I am sinless when I never did. I know you would really like me to say that cause it would make it easier to dismiss me as a sinless perfectionist to justify your antinomian doctrines. But I'm sorry that I can't oblige.
And just for those who would like to know why I didn't just delete the post in the first place, that was because after I realized that I had crossed with that line the post, it had already been on the board for about an hour. So I didn't think it fair to allow some people to have seen me insult Richard without an apology and just delete the post compared to allowing Richard to fairly read what I had said and see my honest apology.
If you don't agree with my reasoning thats fine. But at least I was the one reasoning about how was the right way to handle my own actions.
Charles, what you said did not bother me. I know how it is to get carried away in a discussion.---- Don't worry about it.
Richard
: RichardBurger Mon Feb 11, 2008 - 06:23:33Charles, what you said did not bother me. I know how it is to get carried away in a discussion.---- Don't worry about it.
Richard
Thank you Richard, and I'm grateful for
your understanding.
I just wanted to explain this for everyone since
some people want to make a big deal about it, and some even would go as far as flagging it to the moderators and insist that I be "dealt with". Even after I apologized and struck it out, figure I must really chap
someones hide...
I plan on responding to your post later today.
: RichardBurger Sat Feb 09, 2008 - 15:09:36
If a person is walking in the Spirit they are not sinning. Well I guess no one walks in the Spirit, since I don't see anyone not sinning. Do you see how impossible that idea is?
This has never been my point, nor do I believe I said this. But if you took myself to have said this I am sorry. Let me clear this up, if someone is walking after the flesh they would not be mortifying the deeds of the flesh. Those who walk in the spirit do mortify the deeds of the flesh.
This does not mean they won't sin, but that they avoid sin as a result of walking after the spirit. Whereas the unregenerate sinner falls headlong into sin.
: RichardBurger Sat Feb 09, 2008 - 15:09:36As long as people are preaching a person MUST strive to not sin then they are saying a person has to work at not sinning. That means there is no rest in God from their sinful nature. Jesus did not really free people from the burden of their sins (sinful nature). They still have to carry the burden and struggle with them. They are still under the Law of Moses. There is no peace with God since people must continually struggle with their sin nature. They have no victory because they can't stop sinning. --- That means they ARE still in the flesh and not in the Spirit.
If you are saying that if someone preaches that people must strive not to sin, that they are preaching the law... then you have a serious problem and one more serious then the discussion of this thread.
As I have pointed out numerous times, Paul, John and other Apostles continually preached and taught people not to sin. If you think that they are preaching law because they are exhorting believers not to sin you either do not understand the New Testament, or you are reinterpreting these passages because they don't fit your theology. Let me mention a few:
Jhn 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
Jhn 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
Rom 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
1Cr 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak [this] to your shame.
Eph 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
Tts 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
These passages, like the passages I pointed out here (http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php?topic=23889.msg461721#msg461721); can't be just ignored. I understand that people do sin, but thats the reason the Lord and his Apostles tell us not to. Repent means to turn or change, if your not turning or changing your ways as a result of your conversion again I would suggest selfexamination (cf. 2Cr 13:5).
: RichardBurger Sat Feb 09, 2008 - 15:09:36Thank God I am free of all that rubbish. I am in Christ. I am walking in faith that Jesus can keep me even when I sin. And if a person is not doing that then they are walking in the fleshly idea that they can stop sinning by their own fleshly choices.
Now that does not mean that I go about trying to sin, sin, sin; It means I no longer feel I must carry the burden of a struggle that Jesus has already won for me; a struggle that you are trying to put me back under.
I'm not trying to do anything to you Richard. You are free to believe what you want, and do what you want. Just understand when you start posting these beliefs on an open forum others are going to respond. You don't have to reply to a single of my posts, your involvement in this discussion is purely voluntary.
But I don't believe that resisting temptation is a carnal decision or of the flesh as you are trying to make it into. We are commanded to resist the devil (cf. Jam 4:7), that we are to escape temptations (cf. 1Cr 10:13), and to flee from sins (cf. 1Cr 6:18, 1Cr 10:14, 1Ti 6:11, 2Ti 2:22). These are not carnal battles, but spiritual ones (cf. Eph 6:12).
: RichardBurger Sat Feb 09, 2008 - 15:09:36Make fun of what I say all you want to but I know in whom I believe. I place no confidence (faith, trust, hope) in my flesh to be able to keep from sinning. Therefore I am not in the flesh and am in the Spirit. Read Philippians 3:1-11. You will see that Paul placed no confidence in the flesh. Reading verse 1-11 you will see that he talks about all the religious teachings and the things he did in religion and came to the realization that they were all rubbish.
Richard, why not read the entire context?
Phl 3:12-14
Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Paul says that he has not already attained, nor where already perfect. He also is pressing toward the mark, and the high calling of Christ Jesus. Again, not sounding like someone who as given up or considers his work here accomplished.
And remember I am not talking about works based salvation, but works produced from salvation.
: RichardBurger Sat Feb 09, 2008 - 15:09:36You said; I noticed your mention of 2 Cr 12:9, "My grace is sufficient for thee". I would like to point out that sin is not mentioned in the context of this passage. "Paul is talking about his infirmities and his "thorn in the flesh", which many (a great many) have used to hedge their sins."
First of all I did not mention 2 Cor. 12:9, you did. --- Now you want to beat me down with it. You didn't need to say the above Charles. It is a putdown. It has me trying to hedge my sins. But since you said it you must have meant that I am doing it. Okay, tell me how do you hedges your sins? Oh, I get it! You don't have any to hedge, your sinful nature has changed, and if you do sin you can always pull out the "repentance" license to sin.
I believe you did mention 2Cr 12:9 with this comment:
: RichardBurger Fri Feb 08, 2008 - 13:26:27
But I find myself in a body that sins, just as Paul did and I seek to be rid of it. But God says His grace is sufficient for me.
The only place God says that is in the Bible is in 2Cr 12:9, correct me if I am wrong. But please don't try and make it seem like I am personally attacking you with my comments on your misapplication of this passage, my intention is just to show you that you are mistaken. 2Cr 12:9 is not dealing with sin, but with sickness and weakness.
But personally I try not to hedge my sins, I seek to confess them (cf. 1Jo 1:9)
: RichardBurger Sat Feb 09, 2008 - 15:09:36As I said, I did not bring up what Paul said in 2 Cor. 7-13. """You did."""
Actually, I don't think either of us brought up 2Cr 7-13.
But since it has come up I think it I think it interesting that an Apostle was commanding believers to stop sinning, and also to take drastic measures to see that they were put to shame. No wonder you were thinking about this section of Scripture, it completely defies everything you have been saying about how our attitude should be toward sin.
Thanks for bringing it up.
: RichardBurger Sat Feb 09, 2008 - 15:09:36--- I brought up the fact that God's grace is greater than my/our sins. See 1 John 3:18-23. Verse 20 says, "For if our hearts condemn us, God is greater than our hearts and knows all things." Verse 21 says, Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence towards God. Verse 22 says, "And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.' Verse 23 says, "And this is His commandment: that we should """believe""" on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave commandment." --- I am sorry for you if you do not feel His grace is sufficient to cover your sins.
No Richard, I certainly do believe that God's grace is sufficient to cover my sins. But I also believe we should neither sin so that grace may abound (cf. Rom 6:1-2).
So as usual, I would again like to call to attention it is not an either/or.
: RichardBurger Sat Feb 09, 2008 - 15:09:36Pardon me for having my confidence towards God and NOT feeling my heart condemning me, that His grace is sufficient to cover my sins with Jesus' blood. Now if you feel, as I do, that His grace is sufficient to cover your sins, then why do you fault me for saying His grace is sufficient for mine?
I don't fault you for saying anything. I'm just correcting you that 2Cr 12:9 isn't about sin.
: RichardBurger Sat Feb 09, 2008 - 15:09:36You said, " Paul doesn't say he has given up in verse 25. Much to the contrary, in verse 25 he says with his mind serves the law of God and his flesh serves the LAW of sin. Not that his flesh serves sin.
Amazing! You said, "Paul said his flesh serves the law of sin, BUT not that his flesh serves sin. And you want to say it doesn't mean his flesh follows the law of sin.
verse 25, ----- So then., with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. ---- Looks like he came to a conclusion to me.
Everyone flesh serves the law of sin Richard, the law of sin is death (cf. Rom 8:2) and the soul the sins it shall die (Eze 18:4, 20). Everyone who sins shall die, thats the law. And everyones flesh most certainly faces that law.
But you want to remove the word law from this passage and make it say "with my flesh I serve sin". That just isn't Biblical, nor is it moral to say such things. My point is that the passage says what is says, not what you would like it to say.
: RichardBurger Sat Feb 09, 2008 - 15:09:36You said, "Please note that in the very next chapter he explains that there is no condemnation for Christians who "who walk not after the flesh".
--- Charles, to you, walking NOT after the flesh is trying not to sin. But everyone sins.
----According to John 3:16-18 the only sin that condemns a person is the sin of unbelief. Therefore walking in the Spirit is walking in faith that Jesus paid for your sins on the cross. You can't walk in the Spirit if you do not believe Jesus paid for your sins.
See, this is your strawman. I haven't said that walking in the spirit was trying not to sin. But infact walking in the spirit would
result in trying not to sin. Big difference.
So the remainder of comments addressing this false notion I will ignore.
: RichardBurger Sat Feb 09, 2008 - 15:09:36You said, "I am just going to briefly comment on your exposition of Herbrews 4. If you read the very next verse after 10 you will see it says "Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.". So either you have entered that rest before everyone else, or you believe for some reason that you don't have to labor like the rest of us to enter into that rest.
If you will open your eyes you will see that the writer says in verse 3. "For we who have believed ""do"" enter that rest, as He has said" ---- Note the word "do", it is not future tense. In this chapter
Richard, verse 3 cannot supplant verse 11. Context doesn't work in reverse. Look at verse 9 and consider the word "remaineth" (or "remains" for all you non-kjv'ers). The progression of passages define the context, thats why the writer of Hebrews
didn't just stop at verse 3.
: RichardBurger Sat Feb 09, 2008 - 15:09:36As to the last part of your reply. You said, "This is where I will rest my point. I have already proven that there is a change in the outward behavior earlier in my post with a great number of passages. These passages cannot be dismissed nor ignored, and show clear evidence that either their should be a change in the sinful inclinations in the believer, or that believer needs to examine themselves if they even be in the faith (cf. 2Cr 13:5).
When a person goes to Christ he/she has already made a change. They have turned TO Christ FROM the flesh. --- But that does not mean they have changed, or can change, their sinful nature.
So either you are agreeing that their will be a change in their outward behavior, or you are saying the change is just positional and merits no change in outward behavior. In the case of the latter that is clearly wrong due to the landslide of Scripture already brought to the discussion.
But its hard to tell what you mean since your ambiguous use of words gives rise to equivocation.
: RichardBurger Sat Feb 09, 2008 - 15:09:36Many on this forum think as you do and they prove what I am saying about the sinful nature. They do not show love for others. They show no evidence that their sinful inclinations have changed. They are to busy placating their ego by making put down remarks about others and thinking God approves of it. On this very thread there are those that are acting like pack dogs after a prey.
I hope you consider me a dog because I have taken the time to discuss this topic with you. I have taken much of my personal time to try an honestly answer your questions and expose the fallacies you consider to be sound doctrines. I know I have said some things that crossed the line of appropriate dialogue, which I admitted I was wrong and appealed to your forgiveness.
: RichardBurger Sat Feb 09, 2008 - 15:09:36This ends my discussion with you Charles.
As I mentioned with the earlier in my response, your participation in this discussion is not mandatory but appreciated.
Charles, You said: --- "As to the last part of your reply. You said, "This is where I will rest my point. I have already proven that there is a change in the outward behavior earlier in my post with a great number of passages. These passages cannot be dismissed nor ignored, and show clear evidence that either their should be a change in the sinful inclinations in the believer, or that believer needs to examine themselves if they even be in the faith (cf. 2Cr 13:5).
I replied: --- When a person goes to Christ he/she has already made a change. They have turned TO Christ FROM the flesh. --- But that does not mean they have changed, or can change, their sinful nature.
You said: --- So either you are agreeing that their will be a change in their outward behavior, or you are saying the change is just positional and merits no change in outward behavior. In the case of the latter that is clearly wrong due to the landslide of Scripture already brought to the discussion. --- But its hard to tell what you mean since your ambiguous use of words gives rise to equivocation.
OKAY! Let us establish some of what we believe!
1. I believe that the work of Jesus (God) on the cross reconciles us to God. We respond by believing in His work on the cross. We are NOT saved, or kept saved, by our works.
--------- Can we agree on this?
2. I believe that a child of God "
I thought you had ended the discussion with me. But since you have further interest in discussing this topic , I would be delighted to try and answer your questions to the best of my ability.
: RichardBurger Fri Feb 15, 2008 - 11:36:55
Charles, You said: --- "As to the last part of your reply. You said, "This is where I will rest my point. I have already proven that there is a change in the outward behavior earlier in my post with a great number of passages. These passages cannot be dismissed nor ignored, and show clear evidence that either their should be a change in the sinful inclinations in the believer, or that believer needs to examine themselves if they even be in the faith (cf. 2Cr 13:5).
I replied: --- When a person goes to Christ he/she has already made a change. They have turned TO Christ FROM the flesh. --- But that does not mean they have changed, or can change, their sinful nature.
Then we are in agreement.
But you would also have to agree is they have turned to Christ from there flesh there will be a difference in how they act upon their sinful nature.
: RichardBurger Fri Feb 15, 2008 - 11:36:551. I believe that the work of Jesus (God) on the cross reconciles us to God. We respond by believing in His work on the cross. We are NOT saved, or kept saved, by our works.
--------- Can we agree on this?
We are not simply saved by believing, but also receiving (cf. Jhn 1:12). I know there are many verses that makes it seem that belief is exclusive, but there are more verse than just Jhn 3:16. We are all familiar with Jam 2:19, so faith alone is dead. Faith that is a saving faith will bring forth works, such as repentance since this seems to be your main point of contention.
: RichardBurger Fri Feb 15, 2008 - 11:36:552. I believe that a child of God "
: Charles Sloan Fri Feb 15, 2008 - 12:39:20
I thought you had ended the discussion with me. But since you have further interest in discussing this topic , I would be delighted to try and answer your questions to the best of my ability.
: RichardBurger Fri Feb 15, 2008 - 11:36:55
Charles, You said: --- "As to the last part of your reply. You said, "This is where I will rest my point. I have already proven that there is a change in the outward behavior earlier in my post with a great number of passages. These passages cannot be dismissed nor ignored, and show clear evidence that either their should be a change in the sinful inclinations in the believer, or that believer needs to examine themselves if they even be in the faith (cf. 2Cr 13:5).
I replied: --- When a person goes to Christ he/she has already made a change. They have turned TO Christ FROM the flesh. --- But that does not mean they have changed, or can change, their sinful nature.
Then we are in agreement.
But you would also have to agree is they have turned to Christ from there flesh there will be a difference in how they act upon their sinful nature.
: RichardBurger Fri Feb 15, 2008 - 11:36:551. I believe that the work of Jesus (God) on the cross reconciles us to God. We respond by believing in His work on the cross. We are NOT saved, or kept saved, by our works.
--------- Can we agree on this?
We are not simply saved by believing, but also receiving (cf. Jhn 1:12). I know there are many verses that makes it seem that belief is exclusive, but there are more verse than just Jhn 3:16. We are all familiar with Jam 2:19, so faith alone is dead. Faith that is a saving faith will bring forth works, such as repentance since this seems to be your main point of contention.
: RichardBurger Fri Feb 15, 2008 - 11:36:552. I believe that a child of God "
: RichardBurger Fri Feb 15, 2008 - 13:18:22Reading the scriptures you have given seems to mean a child of God no longer does any of those things; his/her nature has changed. If that is true then the child never sins again, right? --- Why are so many preaching that a child of God MUST/HAS TOO, stop sinning since they no longer do those things?
Because maybe some need to be rebuked. (cf. Rev 2:5, 2:16, 2:21, 2:22, 3:3, 3:19)
: RichardBurger Fri Feb 15, 2008 - 13:18:22
You said, "If someone is preaching doing good works like the Lord so often did and that inspires guilt upon a believer, I don't think you should fault the preacher."
So you are saying you think it is a good idea to place quilt on the children of God. --- I don't believe that at all. That is what the Devil does in an attempt to get a child to lose their faith in what God did on the cross. --- It is the same thing I wrote about on the forum topic "A Tragic Story."
IMHO, those that place quilt trips on the children of God do the same things they do and God will judge them for being hypocrites when they tell others to do what they can't do themselves.
You also would be calling Paul a hypocrite because he does the same things. (cf. 1Cr 6:1-10, 1Cr 15:34, 2Cr 7:8-9)
Would you accuse Jesus of being a hypocrite for telling his disciples to sin no more? (cf. Jhn 5:14, Jhn 8:11)
And calling them to repent? (cf. Rev 2:5, 2:16, 2:21, 2:22, 3:3, 3:19)
Charles, you posted the following:
You also would be calling Paul a hypocrite because he does the same things. (cf. 1Cr 6:1-10, 1Cr 15:34, 2Cr 7:8-9)
Would you accuse Jesus of being a hypocrite for telling his disciples to sin no more? (cf. Jhn 5:14, Jhn 8:11)
And calling them to repent? (cf. Rev 2:5, 2:16, 2:21, 2:22, 3:3, 3:19)
*****
Very good, now it is my turn:
Romans 2:1 You may think you can condemn such people, but you are just as bad, and you have no excuse! When you say they are wicked and should be punished, you are condemning yourself, for you who judge others do these very same things. 2 And we know that God, in his justice, will punish anyone who does such things. 3 Since you judge others for doing these things, why do you think you can avoid God's judgment when you do the same things? 4 Don't you see how wonderfully kind, tolerant, and patient God is with you? Does this mean nothing to you? Can't you see that his kindness is intended to turn you from your sin?
Romans 14:1 Accept other believers who are weak in faith, and don't argue with them about what they think is right or wrong. 2 For instance, one person believes it's all right to eat anything. But another believer with a sensitive conscience will eat only vegetables. 3 Those who feel free to eat anything must not look down on those who don't. And those who don't eat certain foods must not condemn those who do, for God has accepted them.
4 Who are you to condemn someone else's servants? They are responsible to the Lord, so let him judge whether they are right or wrong. And with the Lord's help, they will do what is right and will receive his approval.
5 In the same way, some think one day is more holy than another day, while others think every day is alike. You should each be fully convinced that whichever day you choose is acceptable. 6 Those who worship the Lord on a special day do it to honor him. Those who eat any kind of food do so to honor the Lord, since they give thanks to God before eating. And those who refuse to eat certain foods also want to please the Lord and give thanks to God. 7 For we don't live for ourselves or die for ourselves. 8 If we live, it's to honor the Lord. And if we die, it's to honor the Lord. So whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 Christ died and rose again for this very purpose—to be Lord both of the living and of the dead.
10 So why do you condemn another believer? Why do you look down on another believer? Remember, we will all stand
: RichardBurger Sun Jan 27, 2008 - 07:17:09
The religious mind is what crucified Jesus and has always persecuted the children of God.
Ehhhhh, wrong answer!!!! It was the sinful mind that persecucted Jesus. There were religious people who happened to be involved in the persecution of Jesus, just as there were political officials involved, but it was neither the political nor the religious mind that persecuted Jesus, it was the sinful mind.
It's the same mind that we all have and struggle with and daily persecute Jesus with. Like it or not your sin puts Jesus up on the cross every bit as much as any "religious" person. I know I am wasting my time with you because I have gone down this road with you before and it is like talking to a brick wall. I'll try to show you that you are directing all of your condemnation at a symptom and not at the cause and you'll just keep regurgitating this self-righteous "All you religious people need to be more like Richard Burger garbage."
You spend a lot of time condemning "religious" people and accusing them of not proclaiming Christ. Well here's an idea. If your concern is that Christ isn't being proclaimed enough then here's a thought, start proclaiming Him and stop spending alll your time condemning those who do things differently than you. Until you do that you are just as guilty as you think "religious" people are.
And BTW: Since when do we look to Thomas Jefferson or any of the founding fathers for their views on religion?? They were great visionaries when it came to establishing democracy, but I hate to break it to you, that doesn't make them good theologians of biblical scholars. Thomas Jefferson was a deist.
: RichardBurger Fri Feb 15, 2008 - 22:00:47
Charles, you posted the following:
You also would be calling Paul a hypocrite because he does the same things. (cf. 1Cr 6:1-10, 1Cr 15:34, 2Cr 7:8-9)
Would you accuse Jesus of being a hypocrite for telling his disciples to sin no more? (cf. Jhn 5:14, Jhn 8:11)
And calling them to repent? (cf. Rev 2:5, 2:16, 2:21, 2:22, 3:3, 3:19)
*****
Very good, now it is my turn:
Romans 2:1 You may think you can condemn such people, but you are just as bad, and you have no excuse! When you say they are wicked and should be punished, you are condemning yourself, for you who judge others do these very same things. 2 And we know that God, in his justice, will punish anyone who does such things. 3 Since you judge others for doing these things, why do you think you can avoid God's judgment when you do the same things? 4 Don't you see how wonderfully kind, tolerant, and patient God is with you? Does this mean nothing to you? Can't you see that his kindness is intended to turn you from your sin?
Romans 14:1 Accept other believers who are weak in faith, and don't argue with them about what they think is right or wrong. 2 For instance, one person believes it's all right to eat anything. But another believer with a sensitive conscience will eat only vegetables. 3 Those who feel free to eat anything must not look down on those who don't. And those who don't eat certain foods must not condemn those who do, for God has accepted them.
4 Who are you to condemn someone else's servants? They are responsible to the Lord, so let him judge whether they are right or wrong. And with the Lord's help, they will do what is right and will receive his approval.
5 In the same way, some think one day is more holy than another day, while others think every day is alike. You should each be fully convinced that whichever day you choose is acceptable. 6 Those who worship the Lord on a special day do it to honor him. Those who eat any kind of food do so to honor the Lord, since they give thanks to God before eating. And those who refuse to eat certain foods also want to please the Lord and give thanks to God. 7 For we don't live for ourselves or die for ourselves. 8 If we live, it's to honor the Lord. And if we die, it's to honor the Lord. So whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 Christ died and rose again for this very purpose—to be Lord both of the living and of the dead.
10 So why do you condemn another believer? Why do you look down on another believer? Remember, we will all stand
So you have effectively turned both Jesus and Paul into hypocrites. I suppose you'll say something like Jesus who knew no sin can command people to repent, but what about Paul, isn't he the chief of sinners? So how can a sinner call another believer to repent without being a hypocrite by your line of reasoning?
But consider these verses in your answer: (Act 5:1-11, Gal 2:11-14, 2Th 3:14-15, 1Ti 5:20, Tts 1:13, Jam 5:19-20)
: Charles Sloan Mon Feb 18, 2008 - 11:26:45
: RichardBurger Fri Feb 15, 2008 - 22:00:47
Charles, you posted the following:
You also would be calling Paul a hypocrite because he does the same things. (cf. 1Cr 6:1-10, 1Cr 15:34, 2Cr 7:8-9)
Would you accuse Jesus of being a hypocrite for telling his disciples to sin no more? (cf. Jhn 5:14, Jhn 8:11)
And calling them to repent? (cf. Rev 2:5, 2:16, 2:21, 2:22, 3:3, 3:19)
*****
Very good, now it is my turn:
Romans 2:1 You may think you can condemn such people, but you are just as bad, and you have no excuse! When you say they are wicked and should be punished, you are condemning yourself, for you who judge others do these very same things. 2 And we know that God, in his justice, will punish anyone who does such things. 3 Since you judge others for doing these things, why do you think you can avoid God's judgment when you do the same things? 4 Don't you see how wonderfully kind, tolerant, and patient God is with you? Does this mean nothing to you? Can't you see that his kindness is intended to turn you from your sin?
Romans 14:1 Accept other believers who are weak in faith, and don't argue with them about what they think is right or wrong. 2 For instance, one person believes it's all right to eat anything. But another believer with a sensitive conscience will eat only vegetables. 3 Those who feel free to eat anything must not look down on those who don't. And those who don't eat certain foods must not condemn those who do, for God has accepted them.
4 Who are you to condemn someone else's servants? They are responsible to the Lord, so let him judge whether they are right or wrong. And with the Lord's help, they will do what is right and will receive his approval.
5 In the same way, some think one day is more holy than another day, while others think every day is alike. You should each be fully convinced that whichever day you choose is acceptable. 6 Those who worship the Lord on a special day do it to honor him. Those who eat any kind of food do so to honor the Lord, since they give thanks to God before eating. And those who refuse to eat certain foods also want to please the Lord and give thanks to God. 7 For we don't live for ourselves or die for ourselves. 8 If we live, it's to honor the Lord. And if we die, it's to honor the Lord. So whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 Christ died and rose again for this very purpose—to be Lord both of the living and of the dead.
10 So why do you condemn another believer? Why do you look down on another believer? Remember, we will all stand
So you have effectively turned both Jesus and Paul into hypocrites. I suppose you'll say something like Jesus who knew no sin can command people to repent, but what about Paul, isn't he the chief of sinners? So how can a sinner call another believer to repent without being a hypocrite by your line of reasoning?
But consider these verses in your answer: (Act 5:1-11, Gal 2:11-14, 2Th 3:14-15, 1Ti 5:20, Tts 1:13, Jam 5:19-20)
Charles, I am no longer in a discussion with you. My scriptures say all that I needed to say. Jesus agrees with the scriptures I gave when He said to remove the log in your own eye then you can see clearly to remove the splinter in the other's eye. --- Now the religious will come back and say "well I have removed the log from my eyes now I am good and can judge others." -- But the truth is that no one can remove the log in their own eyes and no one is good but God. Even Jesus said that no one is good but God.
: RichardBurger Tue Feb 19, 2008 - 08:10:31Charles, I am no longer in a discussion with you. My scriptures say all that I needed to say. Jesus agrees with the scriptures I gave when He said to remove the log in your own eye then you can see clearly to remove the splinter in the other's eye. --- Now the religious will come back and say "well I have removed the log from my eyes now I am good and can judge others." -- But the truth is that no one can remove the log in their own eyes and no one is good but God. Even Jesus said that no one is good but God.
Richard,
I understand you no longer wish to discuss this, so I leave you with this passage:
1Ti 5:20 "Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear."This passage clearly does not fit with your understanding of Scripture. Jesus agrees with every passage of Scripture, not just the ones you choose to cite. Calling someone to repent isn't judging them, or picking at specks. Its preaching the whole counsel of God, and following Biblical example. (cf. Mat 3:2, Mat 3:8, Mat 4:17, Mat 9:13, Mar 1:15, Mar 2:17, Mar 6:12, Luk 3:3, Luk 3:8, Luk 5:32, Luk 13:3, Luk 13:5, Luk 24:47, Act 2:38, Act 3:19, Act 8:22, Act 17:30, Act 20:21, Act 26:20)
: Robert Pate Sat Jan 26, 2008 - 17:28:10
Religion is a terrible thing, it causes men to focus on other things than Christ.
If you think that, then you have bought into a false idea of what religion is. I would ask, why does the Church already evolve into a hierarchy in the Bible if it is wrong?
HIERARCHY
Deacon (greek - diakonos / dιάκονος - from the Bible)
Priest (greek - presbyteros / pρesßυteρος - from the Bible)
Bishop (greek - episkopos / epίsκοpος - from the Bible)
This is the hierarchy already described in "Acts" in the Bible. Other titles, in my Church that is, are honorary. For example, Cardinals are just bishops, but they can vote in a conclave. The pope is actually a bishop too, but since his diocese is Rome, where Peter last ministered, he is the successor of Peter, and therefore "pope". An arch-bishop is just a bishop of a large diocese. But it comes back down to the main three (above). The Church today is hierarchical, just like the Church began in the Bible.