Generally, when we think of WOF preachers, people like Benny Hinn always get the headlines. But I have noticed that Joyce Meyers is almost always overlooked and she usually gets a pass. Even when I attended a Pentecostal church (AOG), Benny Hinn was to be avoided, but Joyce Meyers teaching was readily accepted as sound doctrine. I never really understood that.
Anyways, here is a paper written by a charismatic, warning people about Joyce. It's a critique of one of her books. Since I'm not charismatic, nor Pentecostal, I though it would be better received from within, so to speak.
http://www.christian-witness.org/not_in_pubs/joyce.html
Dave, I have listened to Joyce Meyers only a couple of times. I don't know that much about her but the last investigation of misappropriated funds showed her among the bunch along with Benny Hinn and Ceflo Dollar. I've never heard if a ruling has been made or not.
I guess I've pretty much lost confidence in TV Ministries. Also, I like Billy Graham a lot and respected him until I saw on a You Tube where he is saying that there's other paths to God. So I pretty much just avoid them all anymore.
I do like Paul Washer's messages...
I know quite a few people who watch her. I used to a bit, and even though I've heard her lumped in with the others, she never seemed as bad to me. Maybe I just wasn't paying attention.
I haven't listened to her much, but her book Battlefield of the Mind, helped me through a serious period of depression. It is a very good book.
Dave, define "another gospel". Are you using the same definition Paul used in Galatians? Is she teaching people that in order to be saved they need more than God's grace, they must be circumcised and keep the Law?
EDIT spurly not marc Spurly, it's in the link. I know sometimes it's not fun to read those things...
I have many things that I disagree with concerning charismatic-pentecostal teachings, even though I started in a pentecostal church, but stuff like this is serious.
I know of lots of women who still listen to Joyce. She has a strong appeal towards young and middle aged women. Even though I disagree with a lot of her teachings, I do believe she is one of the few who are genuinely sincere in actually believing those things she teaches. That doesn't make it right, but I haven't seen anything from Joyce to make me believe that she's in it for the money. I could be wrong.
I give here credit for her stating that the Bible condemns homosexuality on Larry King. Still, her teaching in the link, and beyond, is right in line with some of the worst of the worst. She uses a lot of psychology. This is typical in the new age movement.
Dave
Ok, I love Joyce Meyers. There.
Can you be specific of where she has been "contrary to scripture"?
I can't get these videos very well with dial up.
Hi memmy
It's just a written (typed) paper, not a video. Is the link working for you?
Dave
This section of the article may cause some here to question statements made in other parts:
Look into it. Every cult disparages the cross. And the cross being the core, the very crux of the Gospel makes any message that disparages the cross "another gospel."
Think about it, Jehovah's Witnesses view the work of Christ as simply a down payment for their salvation. It was not sufficient in and of itself. It must be supplemented with a regular serving of field service, literature placement, baptism, obedience to dress and hair codes, meeting attendance, and a myriad of good works on the "salvation treadmill."
On top of that they claim that the cross is a pagan symbol. Likewise, Mormons don't display crosses. Why? They believe that part of the atonement was accomplished in the Garden of Gethsemane where "He sweat as it were great drops of blood." That's why a Mormon who commits murder must have his own blood shed (i.e., firing squad) in order to atone for that particular sin (the dreaded Blood Atonement doctrine).
Reverend Sun Myung Moon teaches that Jesus failed His mission on earth by allowing Himself to be crucified.
"If Jesus had not been crucified, what would have happened? He would have accomplished the providence of salvation both spiritually and physically."
Oneness Pentecostals teach that it's essential for one to be baptized in order to be saved. The finished work of Christ was not enough. The Church of Christ teaches this also. Both groups also add many works that salvation hinges upon. Is it any wonder they have no assurance of salvation.
Roman Catholicism teaches Purgatory. Harmless? It's a place of fiery torment equal to the flames of Hell where one is purged (i.e., cleansed) of his sins, according to official Roman Catholic doctrine. In fact, the Council of Trent anathematizes (curses) anyone who believes that the cross is sufficient. Does His blood or fire cleanse us? Enough said. What is more important, the cross is relegated to Plan A while Purgatory is Plan B for those to whom the cross is insufficient.
[Bold added by me.]
The author quite obviously believes that the Church of Christ is a cult. That stance will not endear him to most of the members of GCM.
The author quite obviously believes that the Church of Christ is a cult. That stance will not endear him to most of the members of GCM.
Well, some coming out of them believe so as well. Not all of them are, but some do qualify, if being called a cult are ones who believe if you don't do things the way they do only, you are lost.
Just because someone can sound like they have truth and manipulate people doesn't make them a child of God. She is in it for the money and the power and her excess is evident. Million dollar homes for her and her kids. I must admit she makes a good "show". There is a reason Jesus said that it is harder for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to get into heaven. Someone can be wealthy but more is required from them.
It isn't about false doctrine but about the pride that robs people. I have listened to her and it makes me ill. I've mentioned this before about one time on her show she said that God told her to leave $20 for the maid at the motel she was at. She was in a hurry and said she struggled with it. But she said she did it, being obedient to God. A millionaire struggling with giving $20?? And said God said it? Why are we not wise? Why do we still fall for the snake oil salesmen? Look at how smug she acts on her show. She does teach falsehood, her and her levels to reach. Why we could be just like her. If she had said she paid the maid's rent for a year or two then maybe I would think it was God. I would love to hear the maid's version of this story. Sorry if anyone who follows her is offended but she offends me.
I've only heard her once or twice and like most people I hear, some things she said I liked and some I didn't. Jaime said she wrote a book that helped him so good for her for that. I imagine she's like the rest of us, does some good things and some not so good. I do kind of get the same impression seekr has as far as the smugness and not as big a giver as I would think someone with her wealth would be were they following Christ example. Interesting topic so far.
Smugness irks me as well.
Has anyone here read the book In His Steps? I love that book. It can be found online also. In it the author asks if someone who is a millionaire gives $10,000 where is the sacrifice in that? The law is still "Love God and your neighbor as yourself." In 2Corinthians 8 it speaks about equality in giving. This is what determines who belongs to God. it says so in 1John3:14-19.
I love this.... 3We put no stumbling block in anyone's path, so that our ministry will not be discredited. 4Rather, as servants of God we commend ourselves in every way: in great endurance; in troubles, hardships and distresses; 5in beatings, imprisonments and riots; in hard work, sleepless nights and hunger; 6in purity, understanding, patience and kindness; in the Holy Spirit and in sincere love; 7in truthful speech and in the power of God; with weapons of righteousness in the right hand and in the left; 8through glory and dishonor, bad report and good report; genuine, yet regarded as impostors; 9known, yet regarded as unknown; dying, and yet we live on; beaten, and yet not killed; 10sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; poor, yet making many rich; having nothing, and yet possessing everything.
: Dave... Mon May 12, 2008 - 12:24:24
She uses a lot of psychology. This is typical in the new age movement.
Dave
I haven't read any of the post after this yet, but I wanted to comment very quickly that psychology is not necessarily of the Devil. I've been a little surprised to find a number of similar such references to psychology lately--I didn't think this idea was still prevelant.
Psychology is nothing more than trying to understand how we think. Knowledge is beneficial.
A couple of people have mentioned smugness, and, yeah, that's pretty much why I stopped watching her. I thought she seemed to be getting a little too pleased with herself (although I allow that this impression may have been in my brain and not in her intent). I saw her a month or two ago when I was snowed in and didn't quite get the impression as strongly as I had before.
let me chime in for a few minutes.
I listen to JM, occasionally, but not too critically.
but, this topic does interest me, esp. with N's quote --
Oneness Pentecostals teach that it's essential for one to be baptized in order to be saved. The finished work of Christ was not enough. The Church of Christ teaches this also. Both groups also add many works that salvation hinges upon. Is it any wonder they have no assurance of salvation.
I do happen to be one of those cultic coc'ers. But, currently I am attending one of those non-cultic SB churches! I have received some M level training in COC schools. And, I grew up attending COC SS.
The real question is, IMHO, is what truly constitutes "teaching another gospel". I just smile and look away with comments like N's above, and chalk it up to something.
The allusion is to the apostle Paul's comments in Galatians, I would think. Baptism-or-not, was not the issue in Galatians, as N seems to think. To get at the heart of Paul's white-hot comments in Galatians, one really needs to look at the judaizing teachers and their message. It did not involve baptism, at all, but rather references back to circumsion and kosher diet.
One is saved by grace, through faith, period. Now, the question is, what separates the saved from the unsaved?! Or, is some form of universalism the correct position? Legalistic doctrine is definitely outside the bounds of the true gospel. And, "getting it right" is not the solution. (though we may all be a bit guilty of thinking this! ::pondering::)
Basically, the Lk.18:9f. expression of faith by the TC is the connecting point with the grace of God given in, by, and through Jesus. This is what I believe. This is what I teach. (N, you are out of bounds and off base; but, I doubt I could convince you that I know more about myself than you know about me. ::frustrated::)
Does JM teach and emphasize this? I am not sure. Many seem to emphasize worldy success, or some form of charismania, rather than the death, burial, and resurrection of the Savior. Does God bless us with our daily bread? he taught us to pray for these things. But, we are also taught to be content with food and clothing. And, there is the song about Jesus wearing a Rolex.
: JERRY C Mon May 12, 2008 - 14:02:45
The real question is, IMHO, is what truly constitutes "teaching another gospel". I just smile and look away with comments like N's above, and chalk it up to something.
The allusion is to the apostle Paul's comments in Galatians, I would think. Baptism-or-not, was not the issue in Galatians, as N seems to think. To get at the heart of Paul's white-hot comments in Galatians, one really needs to look at the judaizing teachers and their message. It did not involve baptism, at all, but rather references back to circumsion and kosher diet.
One is saved by grace, through faith, period.
I agree, which is why I asked Dave to explain what he means when he says Joyce is "teaching another gospel". Is he using Paul's definition or someone else's definition? Dave has not yet answered that question, to my knowledge.
Well first what is the gospel? It is the good news that delivers us. The good news being about love that Jesus showed by dying for us (great sacrifice) and if we follow the gospel then we should be willing to at least sacrifice for others. I love what Jesus said to Peter three times and that was to FEED His sheep. For some reason we do not take this literally. We make it about teaching and not about the law of love, being we should take care of one another if we are telling Jesus we love Him. Always back to the law that we really are under.
http://www.pfo.org/preacher.htm
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/special/joycemeyer.nsf/0/C5099399D2FCC5FA86256DDF00661C5F?OpenDocument
You have to scroll down a tad for the article listed above.
http://www.letusreason.org/Popteac17.htm
I wonder...when I become a superstar evangalist...will people write about me and call me a false teacher and say I run a cult if they do not like everything I teach? Even if I teach that Jesus is the only way to the Father?
In Christ,
KP
: k-pappy Mon May 12, 2008 - 19:33:36
I wonder...when I become a superstar evangalist...will people write about me and call me a false teacher and say I run a cult if they do not like everything I teach? Even if I teach that Jesus is the only way to the Father?
In Christ,
KP
Good news-k-pappy, You don't even have to be a superstar evangelist for that to happen! ::smile::
: memmy Mon May 12, 2008 - 12:27:28
Ok, I love Joyce Meyers. There.
The truth is, any time you see someone who is trying to do big things for the LORD concerning His peoples, you will find those who will come out from everywhere to critique and critisize... but I say to them... "Hey, where are all the books you have written, where are the millions of Christians you have discipled?" You can always find someone not doing anything who will critisize someone doing the best they can.
I like her teachings, I follow no one human. But, Her teachings are biblical.
: k-pappy Mon May 12, 2008 - 19:33:36
I wonder...when I become a superstar evangalist...will people write about me and call me a false teacher and say I run a cult if they do not like everything I teach? Even if I teach that Jesus is the only way to the Father?
In Christ,
KP
Yep.. and you can make bank on it... and if you are a gambling man, you can get really rich too!
: Dave... Mon May 12, 2008 - 19:21:46
: spurly Mon May 12, 2008 - 14:08:42
I agree, which is why I asked Dave to explain what he means when he says Joyce is "teaching another gospel". Is he using Paul's definition or someone else's definition? Dave has not yet answered that question, to my knowledge.
spurley, it's in the link provided in the OP. I'm getting the sense that you are refusing to read it, so for your sake, I'll explain some of it.
1) Do you believe that Jesus, being perfectly sinless, and perfectly righteous, atoned for our sins by dieing on the cross, *and* suffering three days in hell, as only as a man?
2) Or do you believe that Jesus, being God incarnate, both fully man and fully God, died on the cross being perfectly sinless, and perfectly righteous, so that we may be the righteousness of God in Him?
Is one of the above another Gospel?
I'll add that, as far as I know, Joyce herself never claimed that Jesus was the first born again man, but what she has stated is foundational for that heresy and taught within WOF. As the link provided in the OP explained.
Dave
Thanks for answering my question. I now see that they are not using Paul's definition of "another gospel" that we find in Galatians. Is what she is teaching correct, no. Does it fall under the Biblical definition of "another gospel" Paul used in Galatians, no.
We like to accuse people of teaching "another gospel" so we can tell them that they are eternally cursed. However, we need to be careful throwing that phrase around and we need to consider the context of Galatians before we accuse everyone we disagree with of "preaching another gospel".
Is what she is teaching correct, no.
Could you clarify this statement? Just for those of us who do watch her occasionally.
The point I was making, Dave, was that JM DOES teach that Jesus is the only way to the Father.'
THAT is the Gospel to which I adhere, the same as Paul: Christ and Him crucified.
JM teaches that as well.
Have I agreed with everything that I have watched when it comes to her teaching? No. But I would never make the claim that she teaches "another gospel."
In Christ,
KP
Dave you have not proved that JM teaches any other gospel than that of "Jesus crucified" which is the gospel unto salvation.
You imply she teaches something else, but you have not said what it is you think she teaches.
: Dave... Tue May 13, 2008 - 00:10:18
Jesus was nailed to the cross for professing that He was God. He and the Father are One.
Which do you believe--- Joyce's Gospel, or the Gospel of the Bible?
Time to step out of your lukewarmness and make a stand. You can't believe both.
"'Who do people say that the Son of Man is?'
They say that you were only a man.
"Who do you say that I Am?"
This is not true. Jesus was crucified from the foundations of the earth. He was not crucified for professing He was God. He was crucified for the sins of all mankind, by His own choice. It was the only reason He came to earth.
You need to read the gospel. He was born to die, for us.
.
: Hehealedme Tue May 13, 2008 - 02:04:12
I am another one that likes listening to Joyce M...I don't know if her teaching is 100% biblical all of the time but she does make a lot of sense when she speaks...I have learned a lot through what she says, especially on my own self-esteem and how to treat others...
I have to agree. She has helped me through some really tough times, and I have never seen where her words contradict what the Bible says.
I can tell you this, her conferences and appearances are free of charge. Unlike say, Joel Osteen, that charges a fortune for admission and then asks for money twice during his "show". And never once does he mention that Jesus Christ is the way to salvation!
Here's how I see it: Joyce Meyer, Joel Osteen, and even Oprah, although Oprah really shouldn't be in the same catagory because she isn't claiming to be a "preacher", she's just a blessed talk show host. But I digress....anyway, all these folks and more have some good things to say and can be helpful and beneficial. All are human and are going to say some stupid things, even wrong things but so do I and so do you so we stay in close contact with our heavenly Father and pray for His wisdom and knowledge of His will for us and if He decides to use one of these very flawed individuals to teach us something we might need to learn, then, imo, its best not to just dismiss everything they say, simply because they say somethings we don't agree with.
lunch time! ham sandwich, cajun chicken and rice soup! and GCF!
thought I'd stop by and check in on this string of posts.
Spurly, we seem to see the same issue - what is "another gospel"?
the allusion to Paul's language in Galatians would seem to indicate that the meanings should overlap between what Paul meant and what we are implying?!
Christology, Soteriology, Theology proper, all interact and mingle. But, strictly speaking, the Galatian problem was in the S category. But, what if we jump over to the Johannine literature and deal with the Christology questions going on there with the gnostics?
2Jn.7 Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8 Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. 9 Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. 11 Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.
The nature of God, and especially of the Son, incarnate, is particularly complex, confusing, and contentious. We have, as His followers, come with all sorts of theories, names for groups and their doctrines, and theological jargon for the different understandings and positions taken by well-meaning and serious thinkers. And, it would seem, reading John, that there are some limits to what is orthodox and kosher. But, who can explain this?! (why, several of us understand this, fully; just ask us! but we may not agree with each other). I could pray the Shema, daily. But, I could initial the creedal statement, "...fully God, fully man..." as well. In math, 3 = 1 is nonsense. In theology, it is mystery.
It sounds like JM is off center, as far as her Christology. Theology and the History of Christian Thought teaches where the banks of the stream of thought are. She seems to have run up on a sand bar, at best. But, is she still promoting Jesus as the only way to heaven? It sounds like she is. Is she promoting some Mormon-type theism? does not sound like it. Could we put some other heretical-epithet on her Christology? possibly; maybe probably.
(maybe this post should be in the theology room?)
Yeah maybe to some, but considering that was written in 1998, maybe she has grown just as we all should have since then.
It isn't about what someone says or how good they sound. This isn't really the point as some of you are saying. I do not want to dissect everything someone says or how correct they are. I dislike the arguments about correct doctrine. I believe if we are listening to God then He can use all things for the good, including evil. The thing is, that it is pride that leads to destruction.
Can anybody preach that Jesus is the way? Mormons do. Are they right? They have changed their message over the years to appeal more to the masses. But I also believe a person in a Mormon church, or any church, can belong to God because if they are seeking truth they will find it. It is an individual response to what you're hearing. Who is 100% correct? Some things preachers say are really evident and you know they are way off track but the ones who sound good and say the right things can fool people easier. It is about their fruit. All preachers do good works to look good but God sees motive. JM may have some good things to say but I see her arrogance. She wears it like a flag. God's Spirit should be warning you of falsehood. It still is about love and sacrifice and not the pride of how many people are following us. I could say everything that would please you and make you think I have all the answers. Reread about what Paul went through and see if JM is anything like that. She talks about her past but acts as if she has arrived. She still does preach prosperity stuff which is very demeaning to the poor who belong to God. I am sorry to say this but a good rule of thumb is if it's popular it probably isn't God. God's servants usually aren't super apostles.
: seekr Tue May 13, 2008 - 13:43:15
... I dislike the arguments about correct doctrine. I believe if we are listening to God then He can use all things for the good, including evil. The thing is, that it is pride that leads to destruction.
Can anybody preach that Jesus is the way? Mormons do. Are they right? They have changed their message over the years to appeal more to the masses.
But I also believe a person in a Mormon church, or any church, can belong to God because if they are seeking truth they will find it. It is an individual response to what you're hearing. Who is 100% correct? ... JM may have some good things to say but I see her arrogance. ...I am sorry to say this but a good rule of thumb is if it's popular it probably isn't God. God's servants usually aren't super apostles.
dear sis. seeker,
I like your generous estimation of the scope of God's grace, extended to all sincere seekers. I too tend to think it is not the name on the sign outside the building, but the name proclaimed inside the building. God can certainly work with our inadequacies and incorrectness. Truly, the heart of the problem is the heart sins of pride and arrogance. And, your closing comment about popularity being an indicator, is pretty much right on, IMHO.
but, I would urge you to look more closely at Mormon doctrine. They are little better than pagans with a Biblical shellac. Check out some of Gerald and Sandra Tanner's writings (http://www.utlm.org/). She is the great-great-granddaughter of Brigham Young, the second president of the Mormon Church. Maybe get a copy of "The Godmakers" (http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?item_no=77172&netp_id=137306&event=ESRCN&item_code=WW&view=details), or view the video by the same name (http://www.christianreality.com/videos/vs-vid161.htm). Be gracious, but at the same time be wise. John's comments in 2John are exclusionary and excommunicating. Not all are as they proclaim.
but, I would urge you to look more closely at Mormon doctrine. They are little better than pagans with a Biblical shellac. Check out some of Gerald and Sandra Tanner's writings. She is the great-great-granddaughter of Brigham Young, the second president of the Mormon Church. Maybe get a copy of "The Godmakers", or view the video by the same name. Be gracious, but at the same time be wise. John's comments in 2John are exclusionary and excommunicating. Not all are as they proclaim.
I am an ex-Mormon so I do know those books and what you are talking about. I dislike Mormonism and the falsehood of it but my point is, God can reach anybody anywhere at anytime no matter where we're at. We all are sheep who tend to follow wrong things even when God is in charge. It is our nature to do that. I see this in the christian churches too. We can get caught up in things, thinking we are doing what God wants. We all tend to, instead of realizing it is God who has called us, make it about whatever person or denomination or cult, is teaching us. Does this make sense to you? I know in my life I have followed blindly, teachers/preachers who I thought had the answers and thought I was in the place God wanted me in only to realize He used it mightily to show me His truth as opposed to theirs. If we truly have a relationship with God the test is how much we love Him and others. And I mean actively with the right motives.
Someone said earlier in this thread that God used a donkey (although i would prefer to use the other word for donkey) to speak to Balaam. I also have said this before. God says that He grows us. He says He will teach us. I don't care what people think about my walk because I have found this to be true. He lives in me and I sit at His feet.
What is most troubling to me, aside from the false humility that I see on this thread that is only meant to belittle me and down play the importance of defending the true Gospel, is that people are so quick to wink at error, even Joyce's distorting of the most basic and simple truths of the Gospel, and defend Joyce as if that error is not worth confronting because it may offend some.
Dave, I wouldn't take it too personal. Maybe they really believed she was one of the good ones.
As I said from the start, I just don't put confidence in any of them anymore. Even the Bible teaches us not to put confidence in Man. We owe it all to Him.
I just enjoy what preaching I can and it must come from the Word or I'm instantly turned off.
God Bless
good morning.
rope sheaves and felt stretches today, once we get past a roll coupling.
Sis. Seekr,
I think I hear you correctly, and appreciate your emphasis on God, not us.
God can reach anybody anywhere at anytime no matter where we're at. We all are sheep who tend to follow wrong things even when God is in charge.
Truly, He is at work, even in our backwater and wrong turn times. I do believe that some places are darker than others; but God is everywhere. I do not worry too much where my children choose to assemble with other believers, but, I would warn them away from certain dark corners. But, I rest better knowing that God is in control!
God is bigger than any one group or point of view. Yes, there is heresy and immorality, from which to be snatched and/or fled. But, God was with Samson, a blind and forgotten fool. I'd rather glorify God as an Elijah, though. But, let's remember Joseph in prison down in Egypt. I love his comment to his brothers, "You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives." (Genesis 50:20) God reigns even in our foolishness and wickedness!
Well, put me down as one who occassionally listens to Joyce. I have heard heard preach/teach/etc some excellent lessons. She teachs Jesus Christ as the only way (from what I have heard her teach). No one is totally correct,, the CoC, the Baptists, the Catholics, etc and especially the Greek to English translators who have, IMO, caused much of the confussion among Christians of different denominations and sects because of biased translation so I'm not going to throw stones. I printed off the article to read later but from 1st glance, it seems to be much the same as to what the Spiritual Sword and Contending for the Faith articles have been as far as labeling people who don't agree with their views.
That's what I got from it as well Wiley.
I have heard her preach/teach alot, and do like what I have heard from her so far too.
Oh well, we all can't be perfect...............yet.
: Dave... Tue May 13, 2008 - 00:10:18
Jesus was nailed to the cross for professing that He was God. He and the Father are One.
Which do you believe--- Joyce's Gospel, or the Gospel of the Bible?
Time to step out of your lukewarmness and make a stand. You can't believe both.
"'Who do people say that the Son of Man is?'
They say that you were only a man.
"Who do you say that I Am?"
This post is as bogus as your accusations.
I told you JM preaches Jesus Christ and Him crucified, and you accuse me of being "lukewarm" and foresaking my savior?
If you prove she teaches "another gospel" I will rethink my position, but you have not done so. All you have done is make false accusations at people who disagree with what is only an opinion professed by you.
In Christ,
KP
: bekahdoo Tue May 13, 2008 - 07:18:59
: Hehealedme Tue May 13, 2008 - 02:04:12
I am another one that likes listening to Joyce M...I don't know if her teaching is 100% biblical all of the time but she does make a lot of sense when she speaks...I have learned a lot through what she says, especially on my own self-esteem and how to treat others...
I have to agree. She has helped me through some really tough times, and I have never seen where her words contradict what the Bible says.
I can tell you this, her conferences and appearances are free of charge. Unlike say, Joel Osteen, that charges a fortune for admission and then asks for money twice during his "show". And never once does he mention that Jesus Christ is the way to salvation!
This is not 100% true.. Joel spoke on our military base last year and it was free, and he did not take up an offering at all, but gave out a praise CD and a copy of his book to every couple or person attending.
And recently when he came to our city, the tickets were 16.00. I am not sure that is a fortune for admission. I like Joel. His gift is Encouragement. He is not an evangelist. He tries to lift up the already saved, and he does give a salvation message every week in his sermon at Lakewood. I've watched him often... "We never like to close the program without giving you a chance to receive Jesus as Lord in your life, if you would like to, please pray this prayer with me"... and he prays for salvation and forgiveness of sins.
But, his tour... or speaking engagements are not church services... and not advertised as such either.
I think we have to take each member of the body as we would want to be taken. With grace and longsuffering. Even those who don't preach perfect. As I recall, ONLY Jesus did that.
.
: Hehealedme Fri May 16, 2008 - 03:48:32
I like Joel. His gift is Encouragement.
Joel Osteen's gift may be encouragement, which is surely a good thing but it isn't enough for someone that wants to get into the heart of the Truth...I haven't listened to many of Joel Osteen's sermons, maybe just a few of them...I do not want to judge him as I do not know him that well...but there are these two mp3s that I know of, for example, that come from WOTM Radio where Joel Osteen and Paul Washer are being compared for what they are both saying...and Paul Washer is without a doubt the one that speaks better about some of the most vital parts of the Truth...
If I had the chance to go to a conference, I would much rather pay to hear one of Paul Washer's conferences than go hear one from Joel Osteen's for free...
Just listen to these two mp3s, they will give you an idea of what I am refering to...
http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?sourceonly=true&currSection=sermonssource&keyword=gcc&subsetcat=series&subsetitem=WOTM+Radio+Clips
I think I've heard all of Paul Washer's available videos. I love his preaching.
If Meyer is teaching that Satan triumphed over Jesus on the cross, or that Jesus died spiritually, or that our redemption actually took place in hell then she is teaching error.
It's not the "another gospel" that Paul speaks of in Galatians, but it is error.
: OldDad Fri May 16, 2008 - 08:42:55
If Meyer is teaching that Satan triumphed over Jesus on the cross, or that Jesus died spiritually, or that our redemption actually took place in hell then she is teaching error.
It's not the "another gospel" that Paul speaks of in Galatians, but it is error.
Is that what she preaches? WOW
: OldDad Fri May 16, 2008 - 08:42:55
If Meyer is teaching that Satan triumphed over Jesus on the cross, or that Jesus died spiritually, or that our redemption actually took place in hell then she is teaching error.
It's not the "another gospel" that Paul speaks of in Galatians, but it is error.
Sounds like another gospel to me.
Who knows if she preaches this or not?
I have never ever heard her say that!
The link in the OP refers to such teaching in one of her books from the mid 90's.
.
He does not quote anything from JM's book that says that.
He quotes Rev Moon, Kenneth Copeland and others to prove his point that JM is preaching another gospel. Very misleading if you ask me.
In Christ,
KP
And recently when he came to our city, the tickets were 16.00. I am not sure that is a fortune for admission. I like Joel. His gift is Encouragement. He is not an evangelist. He tries to lift up the already saved, and he does give a salvation message every week in his sermon at Lakewood.
IMO, when preaching in the organized Sunday morning worship, this is
EXACTLY what should be preached. The unsaved (except in very very small numbers) are not in the organized worship. They are out on the street going about life without Jesus and the real message of salvation needs to be out there. The message inside the church should be directed towards those who are saved and needing the encouragment to keep walking in the steps of Jesus. Over the years, true evangelistic outreach of the church has been replaced by pulpit evangelizing of the
already saved. Why preach salvation to the already saved?
I may not agree with Olsteen's views in areas of theology, but I think he is right on in his direction. The saved need all the encouragement they can get to keep moving forward--
and that's all of us who are saved!
: WileyClarkson Fri May 16, 2008 - 18:42:09
And recently when he came to our city, the tickets were 16.00. I am not sure that is a fortune for admission. I like Joel. His gift is Encouragement. He is not an evangelist. He tries to lift up the already saved, and he does give a salvation message every week in his sermon at Lakewood.
IMO, when preaching in the organized Sunday morning worship, this is EXACTLY what should be preached. The unsaved (except in very very small numbers) are not in the organized worship. They are out on the street going about life without Jesus and the real message of salvation needs to be out there. The message inside the church should be directed towards those who are saved and needing the encouragment to keep walking in the steps of Jesus. Over the years, true evangelistic outreach of the church has been replaced by pulpit evangelizing of the already saved. Why preach salvation to the already saved?
I may not agree with Olsteen's views in areas of theology, but I think he is right on in his direction. The saved need all the encouragement they can get to keep moving forward--and that's all of us who are saved!
::amen!::
: WileyClarkson Fri May 16, 2008 - 18:42:09
And recently when he came to our city, the tickets were 16.00. I am not sure that is a fortune for admission. I like Joel. His gift is Encouragement. He is not an evangelist. He tries to lift up the already saved, and he does give a salvation message every week in his sermon at Lakewood.
IMO, when preaching in the organized Sunday morning worship, this is EXACTLY what should be preached. The unsaved (except in very very small numbers) are not in the organized worship. They are out on the street going about life without Jesus and the real message of salvation needs to be out there. The message inside the church should be directed towards those who are saved and needing the encouragment to keep walking in the steps of Jesus. Over the years, true evangelistic outreach of the church has been replaced by pulpit evangelizing of the already saved. Why preach salvation to the already saved?
I may not agree with Olsteen's views in areas of theology, but I think he is right on in his direction. The saved need all the encouragement they can get to keep moving forward--and that's all of us who are saved!
::amen:: You ::preachit:: Brother Wiley!!! ::tippinghat::
: WileyClarkson Fri May 16, 2008 - 18:42:09
The unsaved (except in very very small numbers) are not in the organized worship. They are out on the street going about life without Jesus and the real message of salvation needs to be out there. The message inside the church should be directed towards those who are saved and needing the encouragment to keep walking in the steps of Jesus. Over the years, true evangelistic outreach of the church has been replaced by pulpit evangelizing of the already saved. Why preach salvation to the already saved?
Ideally, I would agree with you. But this is not an ideal world.
My congregation gets lots of folks through the door who are not
already saved. So the preaching is done to the
already saved, but it is spoken plainly. And before the service ends, an invitation is given. You can do both.
And I also disagree about the "very, very small numbers" in light of Matthew 7.
Gary,
I think we have to weigh our productivity against our needs. That is something that I just don't see done in the CoC. There are way too many sermons to the saved on how to be saved! The saved make up the overwhelming majority of any congregation and the unsaved make up the overwhelming majority of those outside of the door. The mission field starts when one leaves the building and is not in the building! Pulpit evangelism of the unsaved in a overwhelming crowd of the saved is really not a productive of the time of the pulpit minister. He needs to be concentrating on those who are saved already and teaching/preaching messages that help them grow spiritually. I'm not saying disregard any salvation message altogether in the morning/evening sermon but make the vast majority of the time of that sermon applicable to those who are saved. They need the encouragement, the uplifting, the deeper study, and the real meat of the Word. If the minister just does nothing but preach simplistic sermons designed to reach those who are unsaved (and many do!), those saved in the congregation are going to founder from too much milk and grain and not enough meat.
Our congregation has members and a full time minister who do outreach ministery/evangelism and specialize in salvation based personal studies in the homes. It does produce a whole lot more than preaching to the very small minority in our morning worship who are not saved and are needing uplifting and growth oriented sermons. I suspect if a pole was taken of any church service on a Sunday morning in the RM churches, the percentages of saved to unsaved in our services would surprise everyone, and my guess is that 99% of the unsaved would be our own children who we should be teaching in our homes.
BTW, we get alot of visitors but they are usually saved already. Very few of our visitors are unsaved people who just decide to walk through the door on a Sunday morning because they have nothing better to do.
The mission field starts when one leaves the building and is not in the building!
That is a fo' sho' Wiley. ::nodding::
False Teacher or not, I get the feeling that ol' JM is all about the benjamins!
: Gary Sat Feb 28, 2009 - 09:41:14
False Teacher or not, I get the feeling that ol' JM is all about the benjamins!
Joyce is one of the very very few American preachers who we will listen to. What she says about what God has done in her life, her honesty and practical and down to earth teaching is s refreshing change from most of them.
She is the ONLY person we watch on godtv.
I have not gone to the link. I take it this is about the "Firstborn from the dead" theory that came out in WOF?
It would not surprise me if Joyce aluded to that, I would expect it from her background. Here's another one she aludes to that makes my skin crawl, "Man is a spirit, has a soul, and has a body."
Sometimes you have to learn, in their own words, to spit out the bones.
I wouldn't pay any attention to it, although I will be asking Philip Powell to explain himself concerning water baptism.
Read what I wrote on the first page of this thread.
For me being a woman Joyce Meyers is a good motivational speaker from God no matter what people mat view of her. She teaches a Womans Ministry & if men decide to show up at her conferences/meetings it is their choice, not hers, she is just the teacher.I would rather listen to her sermons v.s. Joel Osteen or Creftlo Dollar or Kenith Copeland.Above all I listen to my pastor as long as he goes with Gods word ,but as noted Joyce is a good womens ministry minister.
: WomanDiscipleKJV Mon Mar 02, 2009 - 08:15:27
For me being a woman Joyce Meyers is a good motivational speaker from God no matter what people mat view of her. She teaches a Womans Ministry & if men decide to show up at her conferences/meetings it is their choice, not hers, she is just the teacher.I would rather listen to her sermons v.s. Joel Osteen or Creftlo Dollar or Kenith Copeland.Above all I listen to my pastor as long as he goes with Gods word ,but as noted Joyce is a good womens ministry minister.
Joyce Meyers does not proclaim that her ministry is an only womens ministry. That is false. Just as she is a false teacher.
I have watched her on TV, and I have listened to what she says. She claims that she can be a minister because in Christ there is neither male nor female.<Quote>
Little does she realize , that the body of Christ is not where ministers come from. They come from the building , not the body.
We don't get many old-school feminists wanting to argue their point of view around here. Cool. ::cool::