hey all~
i gt a question,
is court judges sinner?
here is why i ask so
court judges, are judge for high court, or suprme court, they are give out death sentence, or life sentence to criminals, and deal out punishment,
by giving out death sentences, they are already condemming and taking away a person life.
in exodus verse 20.13, the ten commandment has it not to murder anyone, nor take other ppl life away from him.
bt the judges are condemming the criminals, they sentence them to death, and we all noe that only god can decide on a person fate, and also it is a sin to take some one life away from him,
some may argue, if murderers remain alive, they may kill more ppl, bt consider that nt all want kill again, some seek redemptaion or salvation, and by condemming them, you are stoping them from seeking salvation, and knowing the gospel.
n if i nt wrong,
there was a verse, of jesus went to this place, the people was abt to stone this woman to death for adultary, they ask him to throw the first stone, he say " if anyone have nt sin before, feel free to stone her" and noone did. the judges i am sure, have sin be4, wat right is there to condemm the criminals?
hw do you feel abt this,
do u thk judges are sinners?
[Mod edit to correct title]
: faithys Thu Jun 26, 2008 - 01:50:16
do u thk judges are sinners?
I believe that all men have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (cf. Rom. 3:23).
Judges are doing the will of the people. In most cases, a jury of 12 citizens decided guilt or innocence, and if the person lives or dies. The Judge makes sure that the laws governing the rights of the people and the defendant are followed -- to assure the trial is fair.
Higher court judges, only review the proceedings of the lower court to assess if the trial was fair and all the rights of the people and the defendant was adhered too. Again the decision of guilt or innocence, life or death actually came from the 12 jurist.
: James Rondon Thu Jun 26, 2008 - 01:59:31
: faithys Thu Jun 26, 2008 - 01:50:16
do u thk judges are sinners?
I believe that all men have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (cf. Rom. 3:23).
Agreed.
: Craig Baugher Thu Jun 26, 2008 - 07:35:17
Judges are doing the will of the people. In most cases, a jury of 12 citizens decided guilt or innocence, and if the person lives or dies. The Judge makes sure that the laws governing the rights of the people and the defendant are followed -- to assure the trial is fair.
Higher court judges, only review the proceedings of the lower court to assess if the trial was fair and all the rights of the people and the defendant was adhered too. Again the decision of guilt or innocence, life or death actually came from the 12 jurist.
How can the unrighteous (I'd say in most cases) make a righteous decision?
Are judges necessarily committing sin by doing their jobs? no.
Would a judge be committing sin if that judge entered a judgment that actually is or that the judge believes to be contrary to God's will? yes.
Is it necessarily sinful to impose the death penalty? Although I have struggled with this issue for [many] years, my current judgment is that no, it is not. There are some crimes so heinous, I would have no trouble imposing the death penalty and even pulling the switch myself.
: Bonnie Thu Jun 26, 2008 - 13:16:34
How can the unrighteous (I'd say in most cases) make a righteous decision?
Ahhh... But it is our justice system. 12 members of your peers determine guilt or innocence. Right or Wrong, it is what we use...
: Bonnie Thu Jun 26, 2008 - 13:16:34
: Craig Baugher Thu Jun 26, 2008 - 07:35:17
Judges are doing the will of the people. In most cases, a jury of 12 citizens decided guilt or innocence, and if the person lives or dies. The Judge makes sure that the laws governing the rights of the people and the defendant are followed -- to assure the trial is fair.
Higher court judges, only review the proceedings of the lower court to assess if the trial was fair and all the rights of the people and the defendant was adhered too. Again the decision of guilt or innocence, life or death actually came from the 12 jurist.
How can the unrighteous (I'd say in most cases) make a righteous decision?
I think a righteous (correct, factual, just, etc.) decision is righteous because it is, regardless of the source. That isn't to say that mistakes are never made nor that vengeful or ungodly motive can not cloud justice. But biblical principles are right and true whether or not the judge and jury recognized that they had applied them without even knowing it. If I made any sense. Receiving the consequence for an action can be just. Only the blood of Jesus keeps us from receiving the consequences for an eternity.
What? No Romans 13 quote yet?
Paul didn't understand our jury system when he penned the letter to the roman church. He probably figured that some roman magestrate might get a copy of the letter. ::whistle::
: Dennis Thu Jun 26, 2008 - 16:02:59
Is it necessarily sinful to impose the death penalty? Although I have struggled with this issue for [many] years, my current judgment is that no, it is not. There are some crimes so heinous, I would have no trouble imposing the death penalty and even pulling the switch myself.
if crimes are heinous, and some criminal deserve the hang, the qn is who are we to criticize the ppl, and decide his own fate and live. by punishing the sinner to death, you also have taken someone life, and like him, you have commited a sin of killing.
only god have the power to punish and control one person fate, and he shall punish the criminals in his own way and not decided by human being.
1 Corinthians 6:1-8
(New International Reader's Version)
Do Not Take Believers to Court
1 Suppose one of you wants to bring a charge against another believer. Should you take it to the ungodly to be judged? Why not take it to God's people?
2 Don't you know that God's people will judge the world? And if you are going to judge the world, aren't you able to judge small cases? 3 Don't you know that we will judge angels? Then we should be able to judge the things of this life even more!
4 So if you want to press charges in matters like that, appoint as judges members of the church who aren't very important! 5 I say this to shame you. Is it possible that no one among you is wise enough to judge matters between believers? 6 Instead, one believer goes to court against another. And this happens in front of unbelievers!
7 The very fact that you take another believer to court means you have lost the battle already. Why not be treated wrongly? Why not be cheated? 8 Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong. And you do it to your brothers and sisters.
From this scripture, perhaps we can glean that it is not biblical for a Christ-Follower (a Christian) to take another Christ-Follower to court? And further, in Pauls epistle, he goes on to explain why this is. (v.2-7) Here Paul teaches that it would be better for us to be taken advantage of, or even abused, than it would be for us to push a person even further away from Christ by taking them to court. Maybe this is his reason for asking
What is more important, a legal battle, or the battle for a persons eternal soul?
Yet, could there be instances when judges could be necessary
especially concerning reconciliation? (Matthew 18:15-17) And the offending party is still in the wrong, in some instances; a lawsuit might be the proper thing to do. Scripture appears to sanction court action
only after much prayer for wisdom (James 1:5) and consultation with spiritual leadership.
::reading::
: Craig Baugher Thu Jun 26, 2008 - 16:38:26
: Bonnie Thu Jun 26, 2008 - 13:16:34
How can the unrighteous (I'd say in most cases) make a righteous decision?
Ahhh... But it is our justice system. 12 members of your peers determine guilt or innocence. Right or Wrong, it is what we use...
The whole thing is crooked from beginning to end. I'd say over 90% of the lawyers will do anything it takes to win their case and that includes lying.
The jury cannot know anyone or be connected in any way with the issues of the crime. We're not suppose to judge between that which we know nothing about. How would you know if those who testify are telling the truth?
This is a world system which I don't feel as a Christian at liberty to partake in.
: faithys Thu Jun 26, 2008 - 23:13:45
: Dennis Thu Jun 26, 2008 - 16:02:59
Is it necessarily sinful to impose the death penalty? Although I have struggled with this issue for [many] years, my current judgment is that no, it is not. There are some crimes so heinous, I would have no trouble imposing the death penalty and even pulling the switch myself.
if crimes are heinous, and some criminal deserve the hang, the qn is who are we to criticize the ppl, and decide his own fate and live. by punishing the sinner to death, you also have taken someone life, and like him, you have commited a sin of killing.
only god have the power to punish and control one person fate, and he shall punish the criminals in his own way and not decided by human being.
And God said he used his servants to do that. jmg3rd alluded to Romans 13 above. Here is a quote:
13Let every person be subject to the governing authorities; for there is no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been instituted by God. 2Therefore whoever resists authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgement. 3For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Do you wish to have no fear of the authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive its approval; 4for it is God's servant for your good. But if you do what is wrong, you should be afraid, for the authority does not bear the sword in vain! It is the servant of God to execute wrath on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore one must be subject, not only because of wrath but also because of conscience. 6For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, busy with this very thing. 7Pay to all what is due to them—taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honour to whom honour is due.
If the governing authorities are God's servants to execute wrath on the wrongdoer and do not bear the sword in vain [which I think most agree is an allusion to capital punishment], then on what basis can you establish an across the board prohibition on Christan's serving in that capacity? Would it make a difference if capital punishment was not an option?
A belief that capital punishment is universally immoral is rationally problematic, istm. God instituted the death penalty in Israel, and he allowed the judges and city elders to both discern guilt/innocence, and and enforce the punishment. Therefore, if capital punishment is universally immoral, you have God condoning immorality. That doesn't wash, istm. One can object that it was different because it was God who defined the parameters. However, some of our nation's parameters mirror those of the old law (death penalty in murder cases, for example, and discernment by judges/humans without divine intervention to determine guilt/innocence).
But we must not ignore the last of chapter 12 which precedes the scripture from chapter 13.
17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
Nor can you frame it in opposition to 13. You have no right to seek revenge against a murderer or a drunk driver who runs over your child. You do have the right to seek and expect justice through the court system. Justice in these situations is the court's job (Romans 13) not yours (Romans 12).
The same was true under the LoM. A murderer was to be handled according to the law (justice), not according to your private judgment and execution (aka revenge).
: jmg3rd Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 09:09:01
Nor can you frame it in opposition to 13. You have no right to seek revenge against a murderer or a drunk driver who runs over your child. You do have the right to seek and expect justice through the court system. Justice in these situations is the court's job (Romans 13) not yours (Romans 12).
The same was true under the LoM. A murderer was to be handled according to the law (justice), not according to your private judgment and execution (aka revenge).
Followers of Jesus are to humbly obey, but remain "spiritually" separate from the civil authorities, and are forbidden to join with them in the killing of their enemies, Romans 12:9-13:7, John 18:36-37. We are not to blur the distinctions between the two kingdoms. As Jesus said....my kingdom is not of this world. We are to be a separate people.
The passages you reference do not make the statement you make in regard to Christians not being able to serve in civil justice departments, nor do they address the fact that God's theocracy (Israel) had people serving in such capacities, which some might say reveals precedent and principle.
------------
::pondering:: Does anyone really think the idea of abandoning all levels of civil justice to the godless and faithless is a good idea? Really?
: jmg3rd Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 09:22:00
The passages you reference do not make the statement you make in regard to Christians not being able to serve in civil justice departments, nor do they address the fact that God's theocracy (Israel) had people serving in such capacities, which some might say reveals precedent and principle.
------------
::pondering:: Does anyone really think the idea of abandoning all levels of civil justice to the godless and faithless is a good idea? Really?
God appointed those laws of the OT. Not Godless men such as we have in governement today.
I just think that revenge is high on the list of most politically minded people. Christians should be seeking peace and showing the love of God to a secular world filled with hatred and the selfishness of its master.
Your point of view, however, that Christians should not participate in civil justice, only insures to an even greater extent that the court system will be godless. Think about that for a minute. Do you want a Christian-free court system? Really?
: jmg3rd Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 09:37:51
Your point of view, however, that Christians should not participate in civil justice, only insures to an even greater extent that govt. will be godless. Think about that for a minute.
It already is except for the power God Himself holds over it.
This fallen world has Satan as its god. He is the prince of it. Although his power is limited it's what is wrong. You surely don't believe that a true man of God could get anywhere in this evil and corrupt world we live in and remain faithful to his Master.
: jmg3rd Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 09:37:51
Your point of view, however, that Christians should not participate in civil justice, only insures to an even greater extent that the court system will be godless. Think about that for a minute. Do you want a Christian-free court system? Really?
Look at what you're saying. You're saying that for the sake of preventing a Christian-free court system, we should not listen to God and instead assist in the killing of our enemies.
: Dennis Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 08:51:36
If the governing authorities are God's servants to execute wrath on the wrongdoer and do not bear the sword in vain [which I think most agree is an allusion to capital punishment], then on what basis can you establish an across the board prohibition on Christan's serving in that capacity? Would it make a difference if capital punishment was not an option?
it is execute punishment on ppl who did wrong, but how wrong a ppl can is, a judge is not the victem family, nor the murderer family, all they does is analysis and weight the offence of criminal, before dishing punishment to him.
god say to forgive people, and not bear grudges, and also to allow ppl to seek salvation. by *executing wrath on wrongdoers*, you have already hated him, and allow the victem family to bear grudge on him, you have also prevent him to seek salvation. the two criminals who was crucified tgther with jesus, one ask him "remeber me when you are in heaven" he replied " well, i tell you the truth, today we are going to paradise"
NW, if a wrongdoers, willing to accept christ, and look for forgiveness, how can you punish them with death, you are not forgiving him for his crime, and you are ripping him for a chance to live a life with christ. which of this option do you prefer
a) a criminal who accept christ, and willing live a life with righteous
b) a criminal who is going to be hang and nver able hear gods name
think about that....
capital punishment is hanging ppl to death, i dun understand your view, if capital punishment is not an option, are u saying that all shall be hang, or it is abolish
: jmg3rd Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 09:37:51
however, that Christians should not participate in civil justice, only insures to an even greater extent that the court system will be godless. Think about that for a minute. Do you want a Christian-free court system? Really?
just raising to the point u were saying,
a court system is based on human make, law of todays is decided by human, and the law is haywire of wat god wanted the law to be or added on to many more law
: Bonnie Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 09:43:33
: jmg3rd Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 09:37:51
Your point of view, however, that Christians should not participate in civil justice, only insures to an even greater extent that govt. will be godless. Think about that for a minute.
It already is except for the power God Himself holds over it.
This fallen world has Satan as its god. He is the prince of it. Although his power is limited it's what is wrong. You surely don't believe that a true man of God could get anywhere in this evil and corrupt world we live in and remain faithful to his Master.
Joseph. Genesis 36-50
: jmg3rd Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 10:26:31
: Bonnie Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 09:43:33
: jmg3rd Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 09:37:51
Your point of view, however, that Christians should not participate in civil justice, only insures to an even greater extent that govt. will be godless. Think about that for a minute.
It already is except for the power God Himself holds over it.
This fallen world has Satan as its god. He is the prince of it. Although his power is limited it's what is wrong. You surely don't believe that a true man of God could get anywhere in this evil and corrupt world we live in and remain faithful to his Master.
Joseph. Genesis 36-50
The story of Joseph is different. Like Daniel, God had given him the ability to interpret dreams.
Joseph had been given dreams of God's plan for his life; so with confidence and strength, he endured being sold into slavery. Earned favor of the officer of Pharaoh by revealing the meaning of a dream as Daniel did with King Nebuchadnezzar. Through that he was able to save his people from famine.
Interpreting dreams has nothing to do with the topic at hand, Bonnie. That's a dodge. The same God that strengthen Joseph and guided him guides His people today.
I would submit that if you believe God isn't big enough to keep people faithful in public service, you need to reexamine some of your conclusions.
That's it for me, no runnin' round this mulberry bush any longer.
: jmg3rd Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 19:15:48
Interpreting dreams has nothing to do with the topic at hand, Bonnie. That's a dodge. The same God that strengthen Joseph and guided him guides His people today.
I would submit that if you believe God isn't big enough to keep people faithful in public service, you need to reexamine some of your conclusions.
That's it for me, no runnin' round this mulberry bush any longer.
I didn't mean that as a dodge but in explanation. God dealt differently with His people in the OT. Joseph's enitre life had a greater meaning and was predestined.
Of course God is big enough to keep His people now as well. But His Word is against us being involved in the the things of the secular world's judgements as I have pointed out. You can't deal with them on an honest level for they don't care about that. The Bible tells us not to put ourselves in such situations. But if the Bible can't convince you I surely can't.
It's not the BIBLE that's unconvincing, Bonnie. In fact it's the BIBLE that convinces me not to agree with your point of view.
: Bonnie Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 19:37:13
: jmg3rd Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 19:15:48
Interpreting dreams has nothing to do with the topic at hand, Bonnie. That's a dodge. The same God that strengthen Joseph and guided him guides His people today.
I would submit that if you believe God isn't big enough to keep people faithful in public service, you need to reexamine some of your conclusions.
That's it for me, no runnin' round this mulberry bush any longer.
I didn't mean that as a dodge but in explanation. God dealt differently with His people in the OT. Joseph's enitre life had a greater meaning and was predestined.
Of course God is big enough to keep His people now as well. But His Word is against us being involved in the the things of the secular world's judgements as I have pointed out. You can't deal with them on an honest level for they don't care about that. The Bible tells us not to put ourselves in such situations. But if the Bible can't convince you I surely can't.
But the passages you have cited do not address the porposition you are aruing.
Let me ask you this: if Christians are not to participate in secular government, why were the Philippian jailer and Cornelius not instructed to change professions? Or what about Eastus the City treasurer [Rom 16:23]?
: jmg3rd Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 20:34:33
It's not the BIBLE that's unconvincing, Bonnie. In fact it's the BIBLE that convinces me not to agree with your point of view.
Well, if you or anyone else can be involved in those things and still wear a garment unspotted by the world... I think you'd be doing so in spite of what the Bible teaches.
I won't argue over it. Debate isn't the point or goal. It's the truth that should matter.
Peace
: Bonnie Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 21:12:37
Well, if you or anyone else can be involved in those things and still wear a garment unspotted by the world... I think you'd be doing so in spite of what the Bible teaches.
I won't argue over it. Debate isn't the point or goal. It's the truth that should matter.
Peace
debate is abt making your stand, and stating clearly why your points stand outs clearly,
this topic is a discussion, and convincing others to take one side.
: Dennis Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 21:10:17
: Bonnie Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 19:37:13
: jmg3rd Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 19:15:48
Interpreting dreams has nothing to do with the topic at hand, Bonnie. That's a dodge. The same God that strengthen Joseph and guided him guides His people today.
I would submit that if you believe God isn't big enough to keep people faithful in public service, you need to reexamine some of your conclusions.
That's it for me, no runnin' round this mulberry bush any longer.
I didn't mean that as a dodge but in explanation. God dealt differently with His people in the OT. Joseph's entire life had a greater meaning and was predestined.
Of course God is big enough to keep His people now as well. But His Word is against us being involved in the the things of the secular world's judgements as I have pointed out. You can't deal with them on an honest level for they don't care about that. The Bible tells us not to put ourselves in such situations. But if the Bible can't convince you I surely can't.
But the passages you have cited do not address the porposition you are aruing.
Let me ask you this: if Christians are not to participate in secular government, why were the Philippian jailer and Cornelius not instructed to change professions? Or what about Eastus the City treasurer [Rom 16:23]?
Why do you say what I have posted doesn't support the issue?
We don't really know what happened after the conversion of the Philippian jailer or of Cornelius. Or at least I don't recall anything further. Rather than add confusion we should stick with what the Bible does tell us.
My husband works for the city. It's off topic really to bring that in with making judgments in courts and being involved in politics on a state or national level.
Apostle Paul says in 1Corinthians 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?1Corinthians 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.Our duty is to take care of the business of the church and to be about our Father's work.
Where does Jesus ever command or suggest that we become involved in the affairs of the world? He commissions us to go forth and make disciples. Paul further says that no man that warreth entangles himself in the affairs of this world.
: faithys Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 22:06:17
: Bonnie Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 21:12:37
Well, if you or anyone else can be involved in those things and still wear a garment unspotted by the world... I think you'd be doing so in spite of what the Bible teaches.
I won't argue over it. Debate isn't the point or goal. It's the truth that should matter.
Peace
debate is abt making your stand, and stating clearly why your points stand outs clearly,
this topic is a discussion, and convincing others to take one side.
I appreciate your encouragement and your desire for truth. I think common sense along with the Bible should be enough to convince those opposed to living a separated life unto God but it seems in most cases it does not.
History and what has been since the days of Constantine have more influence and is so ingrained in the American way of life that the Bible is rarely sought for answers.
When Peter cut the ear off of the soldier Jesus told him to put his sword away; and He healed the man although he was his enemy. He said plainly that He would fight if this world was His kingdom but that it was not; and neither is it ours.
God Bless
: Bonnie Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 23:17:58
I appreciate your encouragement and your desire for truth. I think common sense along with the Bible should be enough to convince those opposed to living a separated life unto God but it seems in most cases it does not.
History and what has been since the days of Constantine have more influence and is so ingrained in the American way of life that the Bible is rarely sought for answers.
God Bless
thx, i just wanted to seek answer to this question, which have is hard to conclude or answer,
bible holds god word of today,
bt however it hard to change judges mindset especially those non christian, why do i say so?
be4 a judge, decide on penalty for criminals, he consult with a board of members. remember that in modern sociaty law is make and decide by human, and words of god in bible is rarely or nver use in decision, i mean they dun just take out a bible during consultation and start throwing reasons why the criminal shall go free, they thk only on suffering of victims and profile of criminals. also, a non-christian judge, will nt use how we thk, and thus dish out a heavier punishment.
let us not 4gt, at times it hard to just use a bible to convince a non-christian, we have to use a lot of talking and logic with common sense.
: faithys Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 23:37:41
: Bonnie Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 23:17:58
I appreciate your encouragement and your desire for truth. I think common sense along with the Bible should be enough to convince those opposed to living a separated life unto God but it seems in most cases it does not.
History and what has been since the days of Constantine have more influence and is so ingrained in the American way of life that the Bible is rarely sought for answers.
God Bless
thx, i just wanted to seek answer to this question, which have is hard to conclude or answer,
bible holds god word of today,
bt however it hard to change judges mindset especially those non christian, why do i say so?
be4 a judge, decide on penalty for criminals, he consult with a board of members. remember that in modern sociaty law is make and decide by human, and words of god in bible is rarely or nver use in decision, i mean they dun just take out a bible during consultation and start throwing reasons why the criminal shall go free, they thk only on suffering of victims and profile of criminals. also, a non-christian judge, will nt use how we thk, and thus dish out a heavier punishment.
let us not 4gt, at times it hard to just use a bible to convince a non-christian, we have to use a lot of talking and logic with common sense.
You are right. They have made laws of their own and many things the Bibles says is wrong they say is right. God isn't in their ways and they don't want Him in them. As government and religion don't mix. That was their decision so why would Christians think they can really make changes.
We have struggled for years over the abortion issue. It makes no difference who they put in as President or what he says he believes about it the people still get abortions.
New Jersey recently ended the death penalty. We can hope and pray that other states will follow. If we have the opportunity and can make a change on things like this it would be only fair but we really have no voice it seems.
: Bonnie Sat Jun 28, 2008 - 08:36:53
We have struggled for years over the abortion issue. It makes no difference who they put in as President or what he says he believes about it the people still get abortions.
New Jersey recently ended the death penalty. We can hope and pray that other states will follow. If we have the opportunity and can make a change on things like this it would be only fair but we really have no voice it seems.
convincing the state nt to do certain things is hard, and to abolish a practice which have been going on for many hundreds,thousand of years is seems impossible.
bt all depend on whether the government wanted to hear what the citizens have a say, imagine having a feedback form, which company will 100% flip through and make changes to feedback, and rmber, the government must have the face to go with majority, and also imagine they abolish death sentence, how many ppl will recommit crime or killing, and hw will ppl feel abt the state governemnt if they abolish death sentence and give even the toughest criminal life sentence? there will be bound to be dissagreement in every thing.
again, coming bak to the topic, it depend on a human mindset and thinking to stop sinning, if nothing is change or help, it will just continue through generations...
: faithys Sun Jun 29, 2008 - 03:42:59
: Bonnie Sat Jun 28, 2008 - 08:36:53
We have struggled for years over the abortion issue. It makes no difference who they put in as President or what he says he believes about it the people still get abortions.
New Jersey recently ended the death penalty. We can hope and pray that other states will follow. If we have the opportunity and can make a change on things like this it would be only fair but we really have no voice it seems.
convincing the state nt to do certain things is hard, and to abolish a practice which have been going on for many hundreds,thousand of years is seems impossible.
bt all depend on whether the government wanted to hear what the citizens have a say, imagine having a feedback form, which company will 100% flip through and make changes to feedback, and rmber, the government must have the face to go with majority, and also imagine they abolish death sentence, how many ppl will recommit crime or killing, and hw will ppl feel abt the state governemnt if they abolish death sentence and give even the toughest criminal life sentence? there will be bound to be dissagreement in every thing.
again, coming bak to the topic, it depend on a human mindset and thinking to stop sinning, if nothing is change or help, it will just continue through generations...
Yes, you're right. It would take a change in the people which I don't see happening at least on a large enough scale to make a difference.
There are people who have committed such horrific crimes that they could never be trusted to roam free to kill and maime again.
The innocent and helpless little children that suffer so tremendously even some at the hands of their own parents is hard for us to bare or think of.
I believe only the Lord has the answer and true justice will never be until He calls an end to it all.
We can pray and do all we can to help and protect those we can and that's about all I know to do.
You have a very kind and Christian attitude. May the Lord bless you!
Wow that is a great question. Yes they are sinners, but then so are we all, as we have all fallen short.
But, I think a more direct answer to your question might be that we as a government have assigned the unenviable task to these men (the judges) to make the call of extending or extinguishing the life (here on earth) of people for heinous crimes.
However, in terms of eternal life, only God can make the call of Heaven or Hell. So that these people who may or may not have committed these horrible crimes, in the long run can only be judged by God. And their ultimate destination will not be judged on their earthly crime so much as their heart, when they meet their maker.
: Bonnie Sun Jun 29, 2008 - 08:38:39
Yes, you're right. It would take a change in the people which I don't see happening at least on a large enough scale to make a difference.
There are people who have committed such horrific crimes that they could never be trusted to roam free to kill and maime again.
The innocent and helpless little children that suffer so tremendously even some at the hands of their own parents is hard for us to bare or think of.
I believe only the Lord has the answer and true justice will never be until He calls an end to it all.
We can pray and do all we can to help and protect those we can and that's about all I know to do.
You have a very kind and Christian attitude. May the Lord bless you!
yes u are right,
this world today, sry ppl, is already tarnished, full of ppl doing sins repeatly, crimes, wars, all these, bt jesus will only coem a second time when everyone heard of god's name, and god have the only answer to all the qns.... all we can do is pray for ppl,
death sentence may nt be the answer to everything, it been a battle since long ago, whether it right to execute a hideous criminal, since we are killing also of other ppl life.so far it been pointing it wrong,
thx, you 2, having to point out ur point 2 in a gracious way,
MAY LORD bless all!!
: Tuna Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 00:32:33
Yes they are sinners, but then so are we all, as we have all fallen short.
But, I think a more direct answer to your question might be that we as a government have assigned the unenviable task to these men (the judges) to make the call of extending or extinguishing the life (here on earth) of people for heinous crimes.
However, in terms of eternal life, only God can make the call of Heaven or Hell. So that these people who may or may not have committed these horrible crimes, in the long run can only be judged by God. And their ultimate destination will not be judged on their earthly crime so much as their heart, when they meet their maker.
yes, by doing such a thing, as deciding n making the call of killing somone, we are almost "playing god" by deciding someone destiny and decide to c whether the person is bad enough for u to kill,
only god can judge us and decide how we gonna be and when we going to die, and in the end HE make a final call, of heaven n hell./
The death sentence was given by God to the same people that were commanded not to kill in Ex 20:13:
Num 35:33 "So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye [are]: for blood it defileth the land: and the land cannot be cleansed of the blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it."
: Charles Sloan Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 11:15:03
The death sentence was given by God to the same people that were commanded not to kill in Ex 20:13:
Num 35:33 "So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye [are]: for blood it defileth the land: and the land cannot be cleansed of the blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it."
Charles, you're trying to go back and live under OT law when adultery was also reason to kill.
Christ has plainly changed the way some penalties are to be carried out. Vengeance belongs to the Lord. He said He will repay! It's wrong to kill. Don't you trust God to carry out justice?
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 12:10:51
: Charles Sloan Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 11:15:03
The death sentence was given by God to the same people that were commanded not to kill in Ex 20:13:
Num 35:33 "So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye [are]: for blood it defileth the land: and the land cannot be cleansed of the blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it."
Charles, you're trying to go back and live under OT law when adultery was also reason to kill.
Christ has plainly changed the way some penalties are to be carried out. Vengeance belongs to the Lord. He said He will repay! It's wrong to kill. Don't you trust God to carry out justice?
Bonnie,
Because I quote a passage doesn't mean I'm going to live under the Old Testament. I hear that thrown around so much, its pretty disgraceful to accuse someone of that for simply pointing to a passage. Besides this passage has nothing to do with adultery [a non-sequitur], but its addressing murder and murderers.
But please don't be so hasty to assume because someone agrees with the death penalty that they don't trust God. Especially since the Bible says that God uses men execute his vengeance and repay... (cf. Rom 13:4)
Just some things to consider.
Charles, probably the reason people point that out about going back under the law is because it's often true.
I merely pointed out that murder and adultery carried the same penalty of death under the OT.
If it wasn't for a portion of Romans 13 I don't know what all of you would do; yet you ignore the last part of chapter 12 which goes right along with it. And, the many other scriptures that are against retaliation on our part especially that of revenge.
We are to be examples of our Lord and Saviour.
And it's been pointed out to you that 12 doesn't contradict 13, and that 12 doesn't say that Christians are to avoid public service.
That's you talking, not the Scriptures, and that's not authoritative. You still haven't really answered Dennis's question about why those in such positions in the NT aren't called to abandon their jobs.
Romans 13 is clearly given to keep law and order in the secular world.
We as Christians owe our respect and should by all means pray for those who hold these offices.
We're to live peacefully with all men in as much as lays within us to do so and abide by the laws of the land as long as they don't oppose those of God.
But those who want to live by the sword will die by the sword.
If you back track you will see where I answered Dennis, jmg3rd.
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 14:57:36
Charles, probably the reason people point that out about going back under the law is because it's often true.
I merely pointed out that murder and adultery carried the same penalty of death under the OT.
If it wasn't for a portion of Romans 13 I don't know what all of you would do; yet you ignore the last part of chapter 12 which goes right along with it. And, the many other scriptures that are against retaliation on our part especially that of revenge.
We are to be examples of our Lord and Saviour.
Bonnie,
Supporting the death sentence isn't the same thing as supporting retaliation and revenge. I just believe that there are some crimes that are worthy of death, and I have shown that the sentence of death is something that is found throughout Scripture.
But we have had this discussion before, which concluded in you accusing me of twisting Scripture:
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php?topic=24616.msg469574#msg469574
So before you are inclined to make similar accusations, lets just remember that just because you disagree with someone doesn't automatically make them wrong, nor does it mean they are twisting Scripture or using it out of context. But if that is the case, you should demonstrate why, and not just make those accusations.
: Charles Sloan Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 15:24:03
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 14:57:36
Charles, probably the reason people point that out about going back under the law is because it's often true.
I merely pointed out that murder and adultery carried the same penalty of death under the OT.
If it wasn't for a portion of Romans 13 I don't know what all of you would do; yet you ignore the last part of chapter 12 which goes right along with it. And, the many other scriptures that are against retaliation on our part especially that of revenge.
We are to be examples of our Lord and Saviour.
Bonnie,
Supporting the death sentence isn't the same thing as supporting retaliation and revenge. I just believe that there are some crimes that are worthy of death, and I have shown that the sentence of death is something that is found throughout Scripture.
But we have had this discussion before, which concluded in you accusing me of twisting Scripture:
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php?topic=24616.msg469574#msg469574
So before you are inclined to make similar accusations, lets just remember that just because you disagree with someone doesn't automatically make them wrong, nor does it mean they are twisting Scripture or using it out of context. But if that is the case, you should demonstrate why, and not just make those accusations.
I don't see where we came to an agreement in those posts. I don't know why you think I'm posting at you because I'm not. This is nothing personal. I'm convinced and believe with all of my heart what I'm saying. I can't find anything in the NT to back up the death penalty.
: Bonnie Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 22:54:46
: Dennis Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 21:10:17
: Bonnie Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 19:37:13
: jmg3rd Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 19:15:48
Interpreting dreams has nothing to do with the topic at hand, Bonnie. That's a dodge. The same God that strengthen Joseph and guided him guides His people today.
I would submit that if you believe God isn't big enough to keep people faithful in public service, you need to reexamine some of your conclusions.
That's it for me, no runnin' round this mulberry bush any longer.
I didn't mean that as a dodge but in explanation. God dealt differently with His people in the OT. Joseph's entire life had a greater meaning and was predestined.
Of course God is big enough to keep His people now as well. But His Word is against us being involved in the the things of the secular world's judgements as I have pointed out. You can't deal with them on an honest level for they don't care about that. The Bible tells us not to put ourselves in such situations. But if the Bible can't convince you I surely can't.
But the passages you have cited do not address the porposition you are aruing.
Let me ask you this: if Christians are not to participate in secular government, why were the Philippian jailer and Cornelius not instructed to change professions? Or what about Eastus the City treasurer [Rom 16:23]?
Why do you say what I have posted doesn't support the issue?
We don't really know what happened after the conversion of the Philippian jailer or of Cornelius. Or at least I don't recall anything further. Rather than add confusion we should stick with what the Bible does tell us.
My husband works for the city. It's off topic really to bring that in with making judgments in courts and being involved in politics on a state or national level.
Apostle Paul says in 1Corinthians 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1Corinthians 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
Our duty is to take care of the business of the church and to be about our Father's work.
Where does Jesus ever command or suggest that we become involved in the affairs of the world? He commissions us to go forth and make disciples. Paul further says that no man that warreth entangles himself in the affairs of this world.
Yes, you did respond to Dennis, but you did not show that those men were wrong to continue in their public service.
I think I have demostrated why by what I've already posted.
If you think it isn't about revenge (and in your case I don't believe it is) but I've had this debate before in other forums. You didn't read those Christians replies or see the hatred in them.
: jmg3rd Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 15:39:29
: Bonnie Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 22:54:46
: Dennis Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 21:10:17
: Bonnie Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 19:37:13
: jmg3rd Fri Jun 27, 2008 - 19:15:48
Interpreting dreams has nothing to do with the topic at hand, Bonnie. That's a dodge. The same God that strengthen Joseph and guided him guides His people today.
I would submit that if you believe God isn't big enough to keep people faithful in public service, you need to reexamine some of your conclusions.
That's it for me, no runnin' round this mulberry bush any longer.
I didn't mean that as a dodge but in explanation. God dealt differently with His people in the OT. Joseph's entire life had a greater meaning and was predestined.
Of course God is big enough to keep His people now as well. But His Word is against us being involved in the the things of the secular world's judgements as I have pointed out. You can't deal with them on an honest level for they don't care about that. The Bible tells us not to put ourselves in such situations. But if the Bible can't convince you I surely can't.
But the passages you have cited do not address the porposition you are aruing.
Let me ask you this: if Christians are not to participate in secular government, why were the Philippian jailer and Cornelius not instructed to change professions? Or what about Eastus the City treasurer [Rom 16:23]?
Why do you say what I have posted doesn't support the issue?
We don't really know what happened after the conversion of the Philippian jailer or of Cornelius. Or at least I don't recall anything further. Rather than add confusion we should stick with what the Bible does tell us.
My husband works for the city. It's off topic really to bring that in with making judgments in courts and being involved in politics on a state or national level.
Apostle Paul says in 1Corinthians 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1Corinthians 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
Our duty is to take care of the business of the church and to be about our Father's work.
Where does Jesus ever command or suggest that we become involved in the affairs of the world? He commissions us to go forth and make disciples. Paul further says that no man that warreth entangles himself in the affairs of this world.
Yes, you did respond to Dennis, but you did not show that those men were wrong to continue in their public service.
How could I? Since nothing else in scripture is told about them. We have no idea what they did or didn't do. Can you show where Jesus commanded us to take care of these worldly matters? Or did he not call us to be separate and commissioned us to go and make disciples, to be about the Father's work. We're not to entangle ourselves in the affairs of men.
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 15:34:50
: Charles Sloan Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 15:24:03
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 14:57:36
Charles, probably the reason people point that out about going back under the law is because it's often true.
I merely pointed out that murder and adultery carried the same penalty of death under the OT.
If it wasn't for a portion of Romans 13 I don't know what all of you would do; yet you ignore the last part of chapter 12 which goes right along with it. And, the many other scriptures that are against retaliation on our part especially that of revenge.
We are to be examples of our Lord and Saviour.
Bonnie,
Supporting the death sentence isn't the same thing as supporting retaliation and revenge. I just believe that there are some crimes that are worthy of death, and I have shown that the sentence of death is something that is found throughout Scripture.
But we have had this discussion before, which concluded in you accusing me of twisting Scripture:
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php?topic=24616.msg469574#msg469574
So before you are inclined to make similar accusations, lets just remember that just because you disagree with someone doesn't automatically make them wrong, nor does it mean they are twisting Scripture or using it out of context. But if that is the case, you should demonstrate why, and not just make those accusations.
I don't see where we came to an agreement in those posts.
I don't know why you think I'm posting at you because I'm not. This is nothing personal. I'm convinced and believe with all of my heart what I'm saying. I can't find anything in the NT to back up the death penalty.
Bonnie
The death penalty for a murderer was instituted in Genesis 9:6 prior to the Levitical law, and exists today for the same reason it did then. The death penalty is meant to be a mercy on the guilty party as well as a judgment, and at the same time it is for the safety of those left behind. It forces the guilty party to face their eternity with a deadline, and being put in that position has the habit of causing more men to turn to Christ than a life of freedom and luxury. Not only is it meant to be a judgment for crime to be used as a deterrent to sin, capital punishment is God's final attempt at mercy for the guilty individual.
CRP
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 15:34:50
I don't see where we came to an agreement in those posts.
Never said we did.
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 15:34:50
I don't know why you think I'm posting at you because I'm not. This is nothing personal.
When you address me by name and tell me I and others are ignoring Scripture, it seems pretty direct and personal.
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 15:34:50I'm convinced and believe with all of my heart what I'm saying. I can't find anything in the NT to back up the death penalty.
I think the reason you can't find anything in the New Testament to support the death penalty is because you are convinced that what you say is the truth over anything that might be provided to you as evidence to the contrary from the Bible. Look back at that discussion we had on that other thread, where I and others provided passages and now here you were provided with more. Your responses are little better than denials and accusation toward those laboring to discuss this topic from a Biblical world view. You position in this discussion seems more defensive and sometimes even retaliatory than someone who is really open to looking at what the Bible has to say about the subject.
Just an observation.
: faithys Thu Jun 26, 2008 - 01:50:16
hey all~
i gt a question,
is court judges sinner?
here is why i ask so
court judges, are judge for high court, or supreme court, they are give out death sentence, or life sentence to criminals, and deal out punishment,
by giving out death sentences, they are already condemning and taking away a person life.
in exodus verse 20.13, the ten commandment has it not to murder anyone, nor take other ppl life away from him.
bt the judges are condemning the criminals, they sentence them to death, and we all noe that only god can decide on a person fate, and also it is a sin to take some one life away from him,
some may argue, if murderers remain alive, they may kill more ppl, bt consider that nt all want kill again, some seek redemption or salvation, and by condemning them, you are stopping them from seeking salvation, and knowing the gospel.
n if i nt wrong,
there was a verse, of Jesus went to this place, the people was abt to stone this woman to death for adultery, they ask him to throw the first stone, he say " if anyone have nt sin before, feel free to stone her" and noone did. the judges i am sure, have sin be4, wat right is there to condemn the criminals?
hw do you feel abt this,
do u thk judges are sinners?
The commandment against murder obviously did not include capital punishment, since it was prescribed for several crimes in the OT, including adultery, which your second reference supposedly addresses.
And I say "supposedly," since, if you do a little investigation, possibly as close of the marginal notes in you bible, there is good evidence that the story of the woman caught in adultery was added to the original scriptures. ::shrug::
But, even if you accept the second passage as "gospel," you must note that Jesus was not only ruling against capital punishment, but against incarceration as well, telling the woman to "Go, and sin no more."
Are you willing to live in a society where convicted criminals, including murderers, to walk free (more than they do now?) ???
: Circuitridingpreacher Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 15:47:12
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 15:34:50
: Charles Sloan Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 15:24:03
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 14:57:36
Charles, probably the reason people point that out about going back under the law is because it's often true.
I merely pointed out that murder and adultery carried the same penalty of death under the OT.
If it wasn't for a portion of Romans 13 I don't know what all of you would do; yet you ignore the last part of chapter 12 which goes right along with it. And, the many other scriptures that are against retaliation on our part especially that of revenge.
We are to be examples of our Lord and Saviour.
Bonnie,
Supporting the death sentence isn't the same thing as supporting retaliation and revenge. I just believe that there are some crimes that are worthy of death, and I have shown that the sentence of death is something that is found throughout Scripture.
But we have had this discussion before, which concluded in you accusing me of twisting Scripture:
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php?topic=24616.msg469574#msg469574
So before you are inclined to make similar accusations, lets just remember that just because you disagree with someone doesn't automatically make them wrong, nor does it mean they are twisting Scripture or using it out of context. But if that is the case, you should demonstrate why, and not just make those accusations.
I don't see where we came to an agreement in those posts.
I don't know why you think I'm posting at you because I'm not. This is nothing personal. I'm convinced and believe with all of my heart what I'm saying. I can't find anything in the NT to back up the death penalty.
Bonnie
The death penalty for a murderer was instituted in Genesis 9:6 prior to the Levitical law, and exists today for the same reason it did then. The death penalty is meant to be a mercy on the guilty party as well as a judgment, and at the same time it is for the safety of those left behind. It forces the guilty party to face their eternity with a deadline, and being put in that position has the habit of causing more men to turn to Christ than a life of freedom and luxury. Not only is it meant to be a judgment for crime to be used as a deterrent to sin, capital punishment is God's final attempt at mercy for the guilty individual.
CRP
I don't see anything to back it up in the NT.
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 16:13:33
: Circuitridingpreacher Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 15:47:12
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 15:34:50
: Charles Sloan Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 15:24:03
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 14:57:36
Charles, probably the reason people point that out about going back under the law is because it's often true.
I merely pointed out that murder and adultery carried the same penalty of death under the OT.
If it wasn't for a portion of Romans 13 I don't know what all of you would do; yet you ignore the last part of chapter 12 which goes right along with it. And, the many other scriptures that are against retaliation on our part especially that of revenge.
We are to be examples of our Lord and Saviour.
Bonnie,
Supporting the death sentence isn't the same thing as supporting retaliation and revenge. I just believe that there are some crimes that are worthy of death, and I have shown that the sentence of death is something that is found throughout Scripture.
But we have had this discussion before, which concluded in you accusing me of twisting Scripture:
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php?topic=24616.msg469574#msg469574
So before you are inclined to make similar accusations, lets just remember that just because you disagree with someone doesn't automatically make them wrong, nor does it mean they are twisting Scripture or using it out of context. But if that is the case, you should demonstrate why, and not just make those accusations.
I don't see where we came to an agreement in those posts.
I don't know why you think I'm posting at you because I'm not. This is nothing personal. I'm convinced and believe with all of my heart what I'm saying. I can't find anything in the NT to back up the death penalty.
Bonnie
The death penalty for a murderer was instituted in Genesis 9:6 prior to the Levitical law, and exists today for the same reason it did then. The death penalty is meant to be a mercy on the guilty party as well as a judgment, and at the same time it is for the safety of those left behind. It forces the guilty party to face their eternity with a deadline, and being put in that position has the habit of causing more men to turn to Christ than a life of freedom and luxury. Not only is it meant to be a judgment for crime to be used as a deterrent to sin, capital punishment is God's final attempt at mercy for the guilty individual.
CRP
I don't see anything to back it up in the NT.
Does everything need to be backed up in the NT even if it is mentioned in the OT?
: Charles Sloan Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 15:49:31
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 15:34:50
I don't see where we came to an agreement in those posts.
Never said we did.
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 15:34:50
I don't know why you think I'm posting at you because I'm not. This is nothing personal.
When you address me by name and tell me I and others are ignoring Scripture, it seems pretty direct and personal.
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 15:34:50I'm convinced and believe with all of my heart what I'm saying. I can't find anything in the NT to back up the death penalty.
I think the reason you can't find anything in the New Testament to support the death penalty is because you are convinced that what you say is the truth over anything that might be provided to you as evidence to the contrary from the Bible. Look back at that discussion we had on that other thread, where I and others provided passages and now here you were provided with more. Your responses are little better than denials and accusation toward those laboring to discuss this topic from a Biblical world view. You position in this discussion seems more defensive and sometimes even retaliatory than someone who is really open to looking at what the Bible has to say about the subject.
Just an observation.
Charles, I call you by name because yes, we are addressing your previous post. That still doesn't make it a personal thing. I haven't seen any biblical truth on the subject being posted from you all who are for the death penalty. In all honesty, it seems you spend your time tearing down what I post without giving it any attention or examining the scriptures to see if there is any truth in it.
As for the other topic we discussed, it has nothing to do with this. Couldn't it actually just be a strawman to throw attention off this subject?
"Supporting the death sentence isn't the same thing as supporting retaliation and revenge."
it isnt?, please elaborate.
: Gary Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 16:15:55
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 16:13:33
: Circuitridingpreacher Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 15:47:12
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 15:34:50
: Charles Sloan Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 15:24:03
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 14:57:36
Charles, probably the reason people point that out about going back under the law is because it's often true.
I merely pointed out that murder and adultery carried the same penalty of death under the OT.
If it wasn't for a portion of Romans 13 I don't know what all of you would do; yet you ignore the last part of chapter 12 which goes right along with it. And, the many other scriptures that are against retaliation on our part especially that of revenge.
We are to be examples of our Lord and Saviour.
Bonnie,
Supporting the death sentence isn't the same thing as supporting retaliation and revenge. I just believe that there are some crimes that are worthy of death, and I have shown that the sentence of death is something that is found throughout Scripture.
But we have had this discussion before, which concluded in you accusing me of twisting Scripture:
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php?topic=24616.msg469574#msg469574
So before you are inclined to make similar accusations, lets just remember that just because you disagree with someone doesn't automatically make them wrong, nor does it mean they are twisting Scripture or using it out of context. But if that is the case, you should demonstrate why, and not just make those accusations.
I don't see where we came to an agreement in those posts.
I don't know why you think I'm posting at you because I'm not. This is nothing personal. I'm convinced and believe with all of my heart what I'm saying. I can't find anything in the NT to back up the death penalty.
Bonnie
The death penalty for a murderer was instituted in Genesis 9:6 prior to the Levitical law, and exists today for the same reason it did then. The death penalty is meant to be a mercy on the guilty party as well as a judgment, and at the same time it is for the safety of those left behind. It forces the guilty party to face their eternity with a deadline, and being put in that position has the habit of causing more men to turn to Christ than a life of freedom and luxury. Not only is it meant to be a judgment for crime to be used as a deterrent to sin, capital punishment is God's final attempt at mercy for the guilty individual.
CRP
I don't see anything to back it up in the NT.
Does everything need to be backed up in the NT even if it is mentioned in the OT?
Certain things such as the law does, yes. But not everything does.
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 16:13:33
: Circuitridingpreacher Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 15:47:12
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 15:34:50
: Charles Sloan Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 15:24:03
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 14:57:36
Charles, probably the reason people point that out about going back under the law is because it's often true.
I merely pointed out that murder and adultery carried the same penalty of death under the OT.
If it wasn't for a portion of Romans 13 I don't know what all of you would do; yet you ignore the last part of chapter 12 which goes right along with it. And, the many other scriptures that are against retaliation on our part especially that of revenge.
We are to be examples of our Lord and Saviour.
Bonnie,
Supporting the death sentence isn't the same thing as supporting retaliation and revenge. I just believe that there are some crimes that are worthy of death, and I have shown that the sentence of death is something that is found throughout Scripture.
But we have had this discussion before, which concluded in you accusing me of twisting Scripture:
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php?topic=24616.msg469574#msg469574
So before you are inclined to make similar accusations, lets just remember that just because you disagree with someone doesn't automatically make them wrong, nor does it mean they are twisting Scripture or using it out of context. But if that is the case, you should demonstrate why, and not just make those accusations.
I don't see where we came to an agreement in those posts.
I don't know why you think I'm posting at you because I'm not. This is nothing personal. I'm convinced and believe with all of my heart what I'm saying. I can't find anything in the NT to back up the death penalty.
Bonnie
The death penalty for a murderer was instituted in Genesis 9:6 prior to the Levitical law, and exists today for the same reason it did then. The death penalty is meant to be a mercy on the guilty party as well as a judgment, and at the same time it is for the safety of those left behind. It forces the guilty party to face their eternity with a deadline, and being put in that position has the habit of causing more men to turn to Christ than a life of freedom and luxury. Not only is it meant to be a judgment for crime to be used as a deterrent to sin, capital punishment is God's final attempt at mercy for the guilty individual.
CRP
I don't see anything to back it up in the NT.
You won't see the name Jehovah in the NT either, but He's there under a different name. ::smile::
With issues like this, the problem is with our seeing through, rather than its being true. ::smile::
CRP
: normfromga Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 16:11:24
: faithys Thu Jun 26, 2008 - 01:50:16
hey all~
i gt a question,
is court judges sinner?
here is why i ask so
court judges, are judge for high court, or supreme court, they are give out death sentence, or life sentence to criminals, and deal out punishment,
by giving out death sentences, they are already condemning and taking away a person life.
in exodus verse 20.13, the ten commandment has it not to murder anyone, nor take other ppl life away from him.
bt the judges are condemning the criminals, they sentence them to death, and we all noe that only god can decide on a person fate, and also it is a sin to take some one life away from him,
some may argue, if murderers remain alive, they may kill more ppl, bt consider that nt all want kill again, some seek redemption or salvation, and by condemning them, you are stopping them from seeking salvation, and knowing the gospel.
n if i nt wrong,
there was a verse, of Jesus went to this place, the people was abt to stone this woman to death for adultery, they ask him to throw the first stone, he say " if anyone have nt sin before, feel free to stone her" and noone did. the judges i am sure, have sin be4, wat right is there to condemn the criminals?
hw do you feel abt this,
do u thk judges are sinners?
The commandment against murder obviously did not include capital punishment, since it was prescribed for several crimes in the OT, including adultery, which your second reference supposedly addresses.
And I say "supposedly," since, if you do a little investigation, possibly as close of the marginal notes in you bible, there is good evidence that the story of the woman caught in adultery was added to the original scriptures. ::shrug::
But, even if you accept the second passage as "gospel," you must note that Jesus was not only ruling against capital punishment, but against incarceration as well, telling the woman to "Go, and sin no more."
Are you willing to live in a society where convicted criminals, including murderers, to walk free (more than they do now?) ???
You wouldn't ask that if you had read this thread.
Here is a New Testament version of Gen 9:6.
Rev 13:10
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
CRP
CRP, I appreciate your input but I know God is in the NT. Christ is God. It's some of the others who could never be convinced of that.
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 16:23:09I haven't seen any biblical truth on the subject being posted from you all who are for the death penalty.
I have posted passages such as Numbers 35:33, Acts 15:11, and Romans 13. Which is more than can be said for you.
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 16:23:09In all honesty, it seems you spend your time tearing down what I post without giving it any attention or examining the scriptures to see if there is any truth in it.
I haven't torn down anything you've said on this message board Bonnie, I have simply stated my beliefs and defended them with Scripture. But need I remind you that after I posted my comments it was you who accused me of living under the law of the Old Testament, not trusting God, ignoring Scripture, and now "tearing down your posts".
But why should we be the ones trying to find out if your posts are Scriptural, shouldn't you be the one demonstrating that?
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 16:23:09
As for the other topic we discussed, it has nothing to do with this. Couldn't it actually just be a strawman to throw attention off this subject?
Bonnie, the other thread is called "
For Or Against the Death Penalty (http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php?topic=24616.msg469574#msg469574)", how again is that a strawman?
: Circuitridingpreacher Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 16:30:39
Here is a New Testament version of Gen 9:6.
Rev 13:10
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
CRP
Sounds like Romans 13.
: Circuitridingpreacher Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 16:30:39
Here is a New Testament version of Gen 9:6.
Rev 13:10
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
CRP
wow! what is the context of this verse? Seems you might be taking that verse a little out of context.
but what do i know ? i am very new to this.
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 16:41:04
: Circuitridingpreacher Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 16:30:39
Here is a New Testament version of Gen 9:6.
Rev 13:10
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
CRP
Sounds like Romans 13.
Pretty much. Romans 13:4 is about the civil justice holding the sword.
CRP
: GLORYTOGOD Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 16:44:04
: Circuitridingpreacher Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 16:30:39
Here is a New Testament version of Gen 9:6.
Rev 13:10
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
CRP
wow! what is the context of this verse? Seems you might be taking that verse a little out of context.
but what do i know ? i am very new to this.
It is pretty hard to take that verse any other way than it reads.
CRP
: Charles Sloan Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 16:39:56
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 16:23:09I haven't seen any biblical truth on the subject being posted from you all who are for the death penalty.
I have posted passages such as Numbers 35:33, Acts 15:11, and Romans 13. Which is more than can be said for you.
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 16:23:09In all honesty, it seems you spend your time tearing down what I post without giving it any attention or examining the scriptures to see if there is any truth in it.
I haven't torn down anything you've said on this message board Bonnie, I have simply stated my beliefs and defended them with Scripture. But need I remind you that after I posted my comments it was you who accused me of living under the law of the Old Testament, not trusting God, ignoring Scripture, and now "tearing down your posts".
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 16:23:09In all honesty, it seems you spend your time tearing down what I post without giving it any attention or examining the scriptures to see if there is any truth in it.
Why should we be the ones trying to find out if your posts are Scriptural, shouldn't you be the one demonstrating that?
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 16:23:09
As for the other topic we discussed, it has nothing to do with this. Couldn't it actually just be a strawman to throw attention off this subject?
Bonnie, the other thread is called "For Or Against the Death Penalty (http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php?topic=24616.msg469574#msg469574)", how again is that a strawman?
You should have called it by name. That was a long time ago.
I'd think you would care enough to see if they are scriptural or not before dismissing them. No matter what I post you're not going to believe me without proving it for yourself. I wouldn't expect you to.
: Circuitridingpreacher Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 16:46:49
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 16:41:04
: Circuitridingpreacher Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 16:30:39
Here is a New Testament version of Gen 9:6.
Rev 13:10
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
CRP
Sounds like Romans 13.
Pretty much. Romans 13:4 is about the civil justice holding the sword.
CRP
I agree. I'm not going to live by the sword or be a part of civil government.
We are a called apart people. Paul said what had he to do to judge them that are without, don't we judge them that are within?
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 16:56:08No matter what I post you're not going to believe me without proving it for yourself.
Bonnie,
Actually this seems to be your outlook when it comes to this topic. I and others are just asking for some Scriptural support for your claims, or at least a good reason to dismiss all the passages from the Old and New Testament just because they don't fit your preconceived notions.
Not too much to ask.
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 17:00:05
: Circuitridingpreacher Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 16:46:49
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 16:41:04
: Circuitridingpreacher Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 16:30:39
Here is a New Testament version of Gen 9:6.
Rev 13:10
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
CRP
Sounds like Romans 13.
Pretty much. Romans 13:4 is about the civil justice holding the sword.
CRP
I agree. I'm not going to live by the sword or be a part of civil government.
We are a called apart people. Paul said what had he to do to judge them that are without, don't we judge them that are within?
Me neither, it is not my place to be a part of civil government, but civil government is a God-ordained institution to bring about His purposes, and capital punishment is one of them. In a fallen world law enforcement allows and protects personal safety for individuals, without which it would not be very pleasant at all. Our safety comes from God and one of the means used is civil law enforcement. When our safety is reduced for whatever apparent reason, it is because God sees fit to reduce it.
CRP
My favorite judges are Smith & Wesson.
: Charles Sloan Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 17:07:49
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 16:56:08No matter what I post you're not going to believe me without proving it for yourself.
Bonnie,
Actually this seems to be your outlook when it comes to this topic. I and others are just asking for some Scriptural support for your claims, or at least a good reason to dismiss all the passages from the Old and New Testament just because they don't fit your preconceived notions.
Not too much to ask.
I think I have given biblical support. What have any of you to say about what I've already posted?
I don't see all the passages that are suppose to support the death penalty in or concerning the NT.
Is it to much to ask for the meaning of Paul's words in my last post?
: Circuitridingpreacher Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 16:50:36
: GLORYTOGOD Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 16:44:04
: Circuitridingpreacher Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 16:30:39
Here is a New Testament version of Gen 9:6.
Rev 13:10
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
CRP
wow! what is the context of this verse? Seems you might be taking that verse a little out of context.
but what do i know ? i am very new to this.
It is pretty hard to take that verse any other way than it reads.
CRP
i read the verse "He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword" who is it that leadeth into captivity and killeth with the sword is this not the beast that is spoken of leading up to this verse? am i not understanding? where am i going wrong ?
who is it that is passing judgement on he that killeth with the sword???
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 17:16:05
: Charles Sloan Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 17:07:49
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 16:56:08No matter what I post you're not going to believe me without proving it for yourself.
Bonnie,
Actually this seems to be your outlook when it comes to this topic. I and others are just asking for some Scriptural support for your claims, or at least a good reason to dismiss all the passages from the Old and New Testament just because they don't fit your preconceived notions.
Not too much to ask.
I think I have given biblical support. What have any of you to say about what I've already posted?
I don't see all the passages that are suppose to support the death penalty in or concerning the NT.
Is it to much to ask for the meaning of Paul's words in my last post?
bonnie,
So far, i think you make the better arguement but i am open to be swayed one way or the other .
: Circuitridingpreacher Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 17:10:52
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 17:00:05
: Circuitridingpreacher Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 16:46:49
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 16:41:04
: Circuitridingpreacher Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 16:30:39
Here is a New Testament version of Gen 9:6.
Rev 13:10
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
CRP
Sounds like Romans 13.
Pretty much. Romans 13:4 is about the civil justice holding the sword.
CRP
I agree. I'm not going to live by the sword or be a part of civil government.
We are a called apart people. Paul said what had he to do to judge them that are without, don't we judge them that are within?
Me neither, it is not my place to be a part of civil government, but civil government is a God-ordained institution to bring about His purposes, and capital punishment is one of them. In a fallen world law enforcement allows and protects personal safety for individuals, without which it would not be very pleasant at all. Our safety comes from God and one of the means used is civil law enforcement. When our safety is reduced for whatever apparent reason, it is because God sees fit to reduce it.
CRP
Sinners and the lawless are who the civil government is for. They'll take care of the judging of it and the carrying forth without any help from Christians.
: GLORYTOGOD Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 17:24:12
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 17:16:05
: Charles Sloan Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 17:07:49
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 16:56:08No matter what I post you're not going to believe me without proving it for yourself.
Bonnie,
Actually this seems to be your outlook when it comes to this topic. I and others are just asking for some Scriptural support for your claims, or at least a good reason to dismiss all the passages from the Old and New Testament just because they don't fit your preconceived notions.
Not too much to ask.
I think I have given biblical support. What have any of you to say about what I've already posted?
I don't see all the passages that are suppose to support the death penalty in or concerning the NT.
Is it to much to ask for the meaning of Paul's words in my last post?
bonnie,
So far, i think you make the better arguement but i am open to be swayed one way or the other .
I can only advise that you pray and study for yourself and as you mature you will learn. The Holy Spirit will lead and guide you if you remain open to His teachings.
God Bless
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 17:16:05
: Charles Sloan Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 17:07:49
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 16:56:08No matter what I post you're not going to believe me without proving it for yourself.
Bonnie,
Actually this seems to be your outlook when it comes to this topic. I and others are just asking for some Scriptural support for your claims, or at least a good reason to dismiss all the passages from the Old and New Testament just because they don't fit your preconceived notions.
Not too much to ask.
I think I have given biblical support. What have any of you to say about what I've already posted?
I don't see all the passages that are suppose to support the death penalty in or concerning the NT.
Is it to much to ask for the meaning of Paul's words in my last post?
I've seen very little biblical support. I've seen a wholesale throwing away of the OT and the examples therein and some of the NT made to contradict itself. If you close your eyes, you won't see what God's Word says.
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 17:27:53
: GLORYTOGOD Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 17:24:12
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 17:16:05
: Charles Sloan Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 17:07:49
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 16:56:08No matter what I post you're not going to believe me without proving it for yourself.
Bonnie,
Actually this seems to be your outlook when it comes to this topic. I and others are just asking for some Scriptural support for your claims, or at least a good reason to dismiss all the passages from the Old and New Testament just because they don't fit your preconceived notions.
Not too much to ask.
I think I have given biblical support. What have any of you to say about what I've already posted?
I don't see all the passages that are suppose to support the death penalty in or concerning the NT.
Is it to much to ask for the meaning of Paul's words in my last post?
bonnie,
So far, i think you make the better arguement but i am open to be swayed one way or the other .
I can only advise that you pray and study for yourself and as you mature you will learn. The Holy Spirit will lead and guide you if you remain open to His teachings.
God Bless
My goal @ this point is to know Jesus more and more each and every day.
While this thread is very intresting, can you recommend any good books or anything i can do to help me with this?
ty
g2g
God bless
Gary, Charles, CRP, anybody care to explain what Paul means by this? The part in bold -
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
: GLORYTOGOD Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 17:37:12
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 17:27:53
: GLORYTOGOD Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 17:24:12
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 17:16:05
: Charles Sloan Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 17:07:49
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 16:56:08No matter what I post you're not going to believe me without proving it for yourself.
Bonnie,
Actually this seems to be your outlook when it comes to this topic. I and others are just asking for some Scriptural support for your claims, or at least a good reason to dismiss all the passages from the Old and New Testament just because they don't fit your preconceived notions.
Not too much to ask.
I think I have given biblical support. What have any of you to say about what I've already posted?
I don't see all the passages that are suppose to support the death penalty in or concerning the NT.
Is it to much to ask for the meaning of Paul's words in my last post?
bonnie,
So far, i think you make the better arguement but i am open to be swayed one way or the other .
I can only advise that you pray and study for yourself and as you mature you will learn. The Holy Spirit will lead and guide you if you remain open to His teachings.
God Bless
My goal @ this point is to know Jesus more and more each and every day.
While this thread is very intresting, can you recommend any good books or anything i can do to help me with this?
ty
g2g
God bless
I recommend the Blue Letter Bible site. Commentaries by Matthew Henry are a favorite of mine. I don't take what he says as the gospel but I like him. I'll get you a link to the site in a minute and post it.
Here's the link. There's other useful and interesting information on the site as well.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/
The free encyclopedia, Wikipedia, is also very useful for looking up numerous subjects in the Bible, church history, etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:About
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 17:54:20
Here's the link. There's other useful and interesting information on the site as well.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/
The free encyclopedia, Wikipedia, is also very useful for looking up numerous subjects in the Bible, church history, etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:About
i ve added it to my favs
thx g2g
: GLORYTOGOD Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 17:59:58
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 17:54:20
Here's the link. There's other useful and interesting information on the site as well.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/
The free encyclopedia, Wikipedia, is also very useful for looking up numerous subjects in the Bible, church history, etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:About
i ve added it to my favs
thx g2g
Happy to help. ::thumbup::
The denomination I currently belong to is traditionally against being involved in the government, the court system, the military, or the police force. They believe Jesus taught nonresistance and nonviolence.
They are active in prison ministry, setting up programs to help ex-convicts gain life skills and reintroduction into the community as productive God fearing citizens.
It's one of the things I don't agree with them on 100% on.
I do like their position on prison reform and their attempts to reach prisoners for Christ. I think it's another place we should be serving God way more than we do.
I know I'm not answering the opening question directly.
I will say I'd rather not see the death penalty used, it's been proven that it's not an effective deterrent to crime.
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 17:42:04
Gary, Charles, CRP, anybody care to explain what Paul means by this? The part in bold -
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
Sure.
That verse is in regards to those who profess Christianity and yet live in open sin. To keep from profaning Christ's name they are to be put out of fellowship. If there is anything of the Spirit of God in them, the putting out of fellowship is one of the things
the Lord uses to bring conviction.
Since judgment is to be reserved for those inside the church, there is to be no recourse by the church on those who are outside the church. In those cases the Lord prepares and uses civil government to adjudicate their matters. One of the matters is capital punishment, and other matters are what have the prisons full. Because of the financial burden on society of full prisons (root cause is dead churches) governments are required to de-rate the justice system to whatever can be afforded. We are watching that right now with the degradation of the laws for things that are called 'smaller crimes', and yet the prisons remain full as the crimes become more and more heinous.
CRP
: w8ing4daybreak Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 19:01:41
The denomination I currently belong to is traditionally against being involved in the government, the court system, the military, or the police force. They believe Jesus taught nonresistance and nonviolence.
They are active in prison ministry, setting up programs to help ex-convicts gain life skills and reintroduction into the community as productive God fearing citizens.
It's one of the things I don't agree with them on 100% on.
I do like their position on prison reform and their attempts to reach prisoners for Christ. I think it's another place we should be serving God way more than we do.
I know I'm not answering the opening question directly.
I will say I'd rather not see the death penalty used, it's been proven that it's not an effective deterrent to crime.
::faint:: Janet, you are almost agreeing with me!
: Circuitridingpreacher Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 19:24:06
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 17:42:04
Gary, Charles, CRP, anybody care to explain what Paul means by this? The part in bold -
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
Sure.
That verse is in regards to those who profess Christianity and yet live in open sin. To keep from profaning Christ's name they are to be put out of fellowship. If there is anything of the Spirit of God in them, the putting out of fellowship is one of the things
the Lord uses to bring conviction.
I understand that part.
"For what have I to do to judge them also that are without" this is the part I asked about. It seems to me that Paul is saying we don't judge outside the church, that's not our job.
Since judgment is to be reserved for those inside the church, there is to be no recourse by the church on those who are outside the church. In those cases the Lord prepares and uses civil government to adjudicate their matters. One of the matters is capital punishment, and other matters are what have the prisons full. Because of the financial burden on society of full prisons (root cause is dead churches) governments are required to de-rate the justice system to whatever can be afforded. We are watching that right now with the degradation of the laws for things that are called 'smaller crimes', and yet the prisons remain full as the crimes become more and more heinous.
[/quote]
The part of your post I bolded seems to be agreeing that again the church doesn't get involved in matters outside the church, but leaves that to the civil government.
CRP
[/quote]
Is that correct?
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 19:55:26
: Circuitridingpreacher Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 19:24:06
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 17:42:04
Gary, Charles, CRP, anybody care to explain what Paul means by this? The part in bold -
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
Sure.
That verse is in regards to those who profess Christianity and yet live in open sin. To keep from profaning Christ's name they are to be put out of fellowship. If there is anything of the Spirit of God in them, the putting out of fellowship is one of the things
the Lord uses to bring conviction.
I understand that part.
"For what have I to do to judge them also that are without" this is the part I asked about. It seems to me that Paul is saying we don't judge outside the church, that's not our job.
Since judgment is to be reserved for those inside the church, there is to be no recourse by the church on those who are outside the church. In those cases the Lord prepares and uses civil government to adjudicate their matters. One of the matters is capital punishment, and other matters are what have the prisons full. Because of the financial burden on society of full prisons (root cause is dead churches) governments are required to de-rate the justice system to whatever can be afforded. We are watching that right now with the degradation of the laws for things that are called 'smaller crimes', and yet the prisons remain full as the crimes become more and more heinous.
The part of your post I bolded seems to be agreeing that again the church doesn't get involved in matters outside the church, but leaves that to the civil government.
CRP
[/quote]
Is that correct?
[/quote]
That is correct.
God has ordained two groups of leadership: the church and the government. Each is in place to ensure a check on the other, and yet both are subject to the laws of God, which are written on the hearts of the saved and the unsaved.
Imagine if you lived in North Korea, and were killed by a native North Korean because you were a Christian. Not only would the government there not offer retribution to your killer but they would celebrate him. That place is all government, no church.
Now imagine either Europe under Popery or England under Anglicanism, where many such atrocities were committed merely because one did not tow the religious line. Those places were all church and no government.
Be thankful for separation of church and state, and yet understand that if either of them stray from biblical principles or convictions of God, the results are always terrible.
CRP
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 19:44:19
: w8ing4daybreak Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 19:01:41
The denomination I currently belong to is traditionally against being involved in the government, the court system, the military, or the police force. They believe Jesus taught nonresistance and nonviolence.
They are active in prison ministry, setting up programs to help ex-convicts gain life skills and reintroduction into the community as productive God fearing citizens.
It's one of the things I don't agree with them on 100% on.
I do like their position on prison reform and their attempts to reach prisoners for Christ. I think it's another place we should be serving God way more than we do.
I know I'm not answering the opening question directly.
I will say I'd rather not see the death penalty used, it's been proven that it's not an effective deterrent to crime.
::faint:: Janet, you are almost agreeing with me!
When it takes 25 years to get death, of course it isn't a deterrent.
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 17:42:04
Gary, Charles, CRP, anybody care to explain what Paul means by this? The part in bold -
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
This chapter is not talking about civil government and the death penalty. It is talking about immoral folks in the church. Your use of this verse is a stretch.
: Gary Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 21:09:36
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 17:42:04
Gary, Charles, CRP, anybody care to explain what Paul means by this? The part in bold -
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
This chapter is not talking about civil government and the death penalty. It is talking about immoral folks in the church. Your use of this verse is a stretch.
Gary, I know what it's talking about but Paul went further by asking what has he to do with them that are without. My point being that he wasn't their judge or overseer of those outside of the church. That tells me that neither are we.
What do you think the Bible is saying in Timothy I believe it is when Paul tells us not to be entangled in the affairs of the world.
You are all passing over all of this and that's why you're not getting it. Rightly divide the Word. Read and digest it all before coming to conclusions such as the death penalty based mostly on part of a chapter in one book of the NT; which i believe if you study it all you'll come to understand that the civil government is put in place for the lawless and sinners.
: Circuitridingpreacher Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 20:30:54
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 19:55:26
: Circuitridingpreacher Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 19:24:06
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 17:42:04
Gary, Charles, CRP, anybody care to explain what Paul means by this? The part in bold -
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
Sure.
That verse is in regards to those who profess Christianity and yet live in open sin. To keep from profaning Christ's name they are to be put out of fellowship. If there is anything of the Spirit of God in them, the putting out of fellowship is one of the things
the Lord uses to bring conviction.
I understand that part.
"For what have I to do to judge them also that are without" this is the part I asked about. It seems to me that Paul is saying we don't judge outside the church, that's not our job.
Since judgment is to be reserved for those inside the church, there is to be no recourse by the church on those who are outside the church. In those cases the Lord prepares and uses civil government to adjudicate their matters. One of the matters is capital punishment, and other matters are what have the prisons full. Because of the financial burden on society of full prisons (root cause is dead churches) governments are required to de-rate the justice system to whatever can be afforded. We are watching that right now with the degradation of the laws for things that are called 'smaller crimes', and yet the prisons remain full as the crimes become more and more heinous.
The part of your post I bolded seems to be agreeing that again the church doesn't get involved in matters outside the church, but leaves that to the civil government.
CRP
Is that correct?
[/quote]
That is correct.
God has ordained two groups of leadership: the church and the government. Each is in place to ensure a check on the other, and yet both are subject to the laws of God, which are written on the hearts of the saved and the unsaved.
Imagine if you lived in North Korea, and were killed by a native North Korean because you were a Christian. Not only would the government there not offer retribution to your killer but they would celebrate him. That place is all government, no church.
Now imagine either Europe under Popery or England under Anglicanism, where many such atrocities were committed merely because one did not tow the religious line. Those places were all church and no government.
Be thankful for separation of church and state, and yet understand that if either of them stray from biblical principles or convictions of God, the results are always terrible.
CRP
[/quote]
CRP, what good would it do me if they killed the one who killed me? The person needs to be kept out of society I agree but taking vengeance on him will not solve anything. God will judge him/her. Nobody gets away with anything on earth that they do, not in the long run.
Think about Saul and how he hunted David for years to kill him. God had already turned from Saul and chosen David to be king over Israel but the transfer of power hadn't been made.
David had to stay in hiding for fear of his life yet he continued to love Saul. God delivered Saul right in his hand but David refused to kill him.
He cut off part of his clothing while Saul and his army slept, crossed back over to the other side of the mountain and showed Saul how he had been in his camp and that close to him yet he had declared that he would not harm him.
He wept at the death of Saul when he fell upon his own sword. God took care of it all and David never dirtied his hands.
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 22:45:18
You are all passing over all of this and that's why you're not getting it. Rightly divide the Word. Read and digest it all before coming to conclusions such as the death penalty based mostly on part of a chapter in one book of the NT; which i believe if you study it all you'll come to understand that.....
I think you need to take your own advice as I believe you are the one who needs to rightly divide the Word.
How about the people that have been wrongly imprisioned over the years? Do you think that their may have been some or even one that have been put to death wrongly? If the latter is true isn't this enough reason to be against the death penalty ?
: normfromga Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 16:11:24
And I say "supposedly," since, if you do a little investigation, possibly as close of the marginal notes in you bible, there is good evidence that the story of the woman caught in adultery was added to the original scripture
But, even if you accept the second passage as "gospel," you must note that Jesus was not only ruling against capital punishment, but against incarceration as well, telling the woman to "Go, and sin no more."
Are you willing to live in a society where convicted criminals, including murderers, to walk free (more than they do now?) ???
answering to you, u are contridicting yourself, jesus told the woman to go and sin no more, he want sinners to repent and live a life without sinner, he prevent people to kill the person but to give them a second chance,
AND SINCE when did jesus does something or say something that to support killing of each other, or judging of each other? i dun thk so
you ask me whether we are willing in a society with criminals to walk free, i answer you, "why not?" you are asking me a selfish question, and it tell me that you are not displaying a christian altitude by 4giving, and loving own brothers. how would you know they will commit sin again and kill people, or that they want redemption and live a christian life?
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 23:01:09
CRP, what good would it do me if they killed the one who killed me? The person needs to be kept out of society I agree but taking vengeance on him will not solve anything. God will judge him/her. Nobody gets away with anything on earth that they do, not in the long run.
Think about Saul and how he hunted David for years to kill him. God had already turned from Saul and chosen David to be king over Israel but the transfer of power hadn't been made.
David had to stay in hiding for fear of his life yet he continued to love Saul. God delivered Saul right in his hand but David refused to kill him.
He cut off part of his clothing while Saul and his army slept, crossed back over to the other side of the mountain and showed Saul how he had been in his camp and that close to him yet he had declared that he would not harm him.
He wept at the death of Saul when he fell upon his own sword. God took care of it all and David never dirtied his hands.
Three goods, 1) It would force him to prepare for his eternity 2) It acts as a deterrent to prevent others from doing the same thing 3) It stays God's judgment from coming on the nation.
David never dirtied his hands with Saul, because he understood that whatever else Saul had done, he was still the Lord's anointed. You could liken it today to killing a president. Whatever the president does, yet he is still the one chosen by God to lead the people, whether he/she is good or bad. Rising up to kill the president is rebellion against God, whereas executing just judgment on the behalf of the president is submission to God.
As the warrior king, David was one of God's instruments in battle for those who opposed God---starting with Goliath and ending with ten thousand's and more (1 Sam 18:7).
CRP
: GLORYTOGOD Tue Jul 01, 2008 - 00:58:14
How about the people that have been wrongly imprisioned over the years? Do you think that their may have been some or even one that have been put to death wrongly? If the latter is true isn't this enough reason to be against the death penalty ?
If you believe that God is sovereign, no one has ever been unjustly imprisoned. John Bunyan was in prison for 12 years, and out of it came Pilgrim's Progress. This world is merely temporary, it is not the Christian's home. If I was unjustly executed, all it would mean to me is that I am going home to be with Christ. If a lost man is unjustly sentenced to be executed, all it would mean is that he now must face eternity and decide where he wants to go.
Everything for a purpose.
CRP
: Circuitridingpreacher Tue Jul 01, 2008 - 06:59:53
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 23:01:09
CRP, what good would it do me if they killed the one who killed me? The person needs to be kept out of society I agree but taking vengeance on him will not solve anything. God will judge him/her. Nobody gets away with anything on earth that they do, not in the long run.
Think about Saul and how he hunted David for years to kill him. God had already turned from Saul and chosen David to be king over Israel but the transfer of power hadn't been made.
David had to stay in hiding for fear of his life yet he continued to love Saul. God delivered Saul right in his hand but David refused to kill him.
He cut off part of his clothing while Saul and his army slept, crossed back over to the other side of the mountain and showed Saul how he had been in his camp and that close to him yet he had declared that he would not harm him.
He wept at the death of Saul when he fell upon his own sword. God took care of it all and David never dirtied his hands.
Three goods, 1) It would force him to prepare for his eternity 2) It acts as a deterrent to prevent others from doing the same thing 3) It stays God's judgment from coming on the nation.
1. Might he also prepare to meet God without the death penalty? I know of countless reports of prisoner's accepting Christ.
2. We know the threat of death row hasn't effected nor changed most who are set to kill. It doesn't work according to statics.
3. The third one I disagree with. Based on God judges each person on his own record.
David never dirtied his hands with Saul, because he understood that whatever else Saul had done, he was still the Lord's anointed. You could liken it today to killing a president. Whatever the president does, yet he is still the one chosen by God to lead the people, whether he/she is good or bad. Rising up to kill the president is rebellion against God, whereas executing just judgment on the behalf of the president is submission to God.
As the warrior king, David was one of God's instruments in battle for those who opposed God---starting with Goliath and ending with ten thousand's and more (1 Sam 18:7).
CRP
[/quote]
CRP, I believe David's love for Saul is what kept him from killing him. God had disowned Saul although David does make mention of him being God's annointed several times.
David was a great man of war. This was done when physical Israel was instructed by God Himself to fight His enemies.
God has no enemies today except for the ones who refuse His Son.
Yes, God sets kings up and He takes them down. We must agree accordingly that American is not the only nation with a ruler. Did God not set those kings up as well?
Whose business is it to go and kill them, destroy their country, killing the innocent along with the warriors? on false trumped up charges in order to take what belongs to their country?
: Bonnie Tue Jul 01, 2008 - 07:42:23
: Circuitridingpreacher Tue Jul 01, 2008 - 06:59:53
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 23:01:09
CRP, what good would it do me if they killed the one who killed me? The person needs to be kept out of society I agree but taking vengeance on him will not solve anything. God will judge him/her. Nobody gets away with anything on earth that they do, not in the long run.
Think about Saul and how he hunted David for years to kill him. God had already turned from Saul and chosen David to be king over Israel but the transfer of power hadn't been made.
David had to stay in hiding for fear of his life yet he continued to love Saul. God delivered Saul right in his hand but David refused to kill him.
He cut off part of his clothing while Saul and his army slept, crossed back over to the other side of the mountain and showed Saul how he had been in his camp and that close to him yet he had declared that he would not harm him.
He wept at the death of Saul when he fell upon his own sword. God took care of it all and David never dirtied his hands.
Three goods, 1) It would force him to prepare for his eternity 2) It acts as a deterrent to prevent others from doing the same thing 3) It stays God's judgment from coming on the nation.
1. Might he also prepare to meet God without the death penalty? I know of countless reports of prisoner's accepting Christ.
2. We know the threat of death row hasn't effected nor changed most who are set to kill. It doesn't work according to statics.
3. The third one I disagree with. Based on God judges each person on his own record.
David never dirtied his hands with Saul, because he understood that whatever else Saul had done, he was still the Lord's anointed. You could liken it today to killing a president. Whatever the president does, yet he is still the one chosen by God to lead the people, whether he/she is good or bad. Rising up to kill the president is rebellion against God, whereas executing just judgment on the behalf of the president is submission to God.
As the warrior king, David was one of God's instruments in battle for those who opposed God---starting with Goliath and ending with ten thousand's and more (1 Sam 18:7).
CRP
CRP, I believe David's love for Saul is what kept him from killing him. God had disowned Saul although David does make mention of him being God's annointed several times.
David was a great man of war. This was done when physical Israel was instructed by God Himself to fight His enemies.
God has no enemies today except for the ones who refuse His Son.
Yes, God sets kings up and He takes them down. We must agree accordingly that American is not the only nation with a ruler. Did God not set those kings up as well?
Whose business is it to go and kill them, destroy their country, killing the innocent along with the warriors? on false trumped up charges in order to take what belongs to their country?
[/quote]
1. Different circumstances are required for different people to come to Christ, what we cannot do is remove any of the God-ordained circumstances.
2. The current American threat of Death Row is pathetic, and with all the legal hoops, mostly works out to a life sentence in prison only. In Singapore where they have public canings for people who spit their gum on the sidewalk, the sidewalks are very clean.
3. The third one you are seeing right now. America kills the unborn and lets the murderer live, corporate judgment is happening already, and will get much more intense as the famine rolls in.
God Himself has instructed the civil authorities to use capital punishment in cases of murder, and whether it is followed through justly or unjustly, they are accountable for what they do in the matter. Some agree, some disagree, but the fact remains; and likewise so do the consequences.
CRP
I have been busy the last few days and several pages have intervened since my last post. Bonnie, in answer to your reponse, the reason I said the passages you cited didn't support your position is because my reading of them leads me to conclude that they do not even address the issue. At the time of my comment, you had cited two passages to support your position that Chrisitians cannot participate in civil government, the last part of Rom. 12 and the passage where Jesus tells Pilate that his Kingdom is not of this world and that if it had been, his disiciples would have defended him.
I will take the last passage first. It is the response Jesus makes to Pilate as He submits himself to the civil authority. It says absolutely nothing about a Chrisitan's participation in civil authority and what if any limits there might be on that participation. I do not see how Jesus' comment that his disciples are not defending him defines what we can or cannot do to defend ourselves in this world or collectively defend each other or participate in the administrative aspects of government. It just doesn't address these topics.
As to Rom 12, the same applies. The last half of Ch. 12 admonishes us to live in peace as much as it is possible [which by the way implies it is not always possible]. It says do not avenge yourselves, leave that to God [and of course Ch. 13 goes on to explain, at least in part, how God's wrath is poured out]. This passage is referring generally to our Chrisitian lives. It certainly makes no specific reference to civil government and I do not see how it can be reasonably interpreted to be a prohibition for Christians to participate in civil government.
Which brings us back to Ch. 13. I may be wrong, but I think pretty much everyone here believes Ch. 13 establishes the proposition that civil government is ordained of God and even the enforcement powers of government arre ordained of God. My question is simply this. If civil government is ordained of God, how can we say it is per se prohibited for Chrisitians to participate?
I'm tired of debating the issue. I believe I have done all that I can to present the other side of this issue. I'm not alone in my beliefs and neither are you. It's up to each individual what they choose to believe. That's all I have left to say.
Peace
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 19:44:19
: w8ing4daybreak Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 19:01:41
The denomination I currently belong to is traditionally against being involved in the government, the court system, the military, or the police force. They believe Jesus taught nonresistance and nonviolence.
They are active in prison ministry, setting up programs to help ex-convicts gain life skills and reintroduction into the community as productive God fearing citizens.
It's one of the things I don't agree with them on 100% on.
I do like their position on prison reform and their attempts to reach prisoners for Christ. I think it's another place we should be serving God way more than we do.
I know I'm not answering the opening question directly.
I will say I'd rather not see the death penalty used, it's been proven that it's not an effective deterrent to crime.
::faint:: Janet, you are almost agreeing with me!
Bonnie, I do think we have some differences of opinion on some things... you are a tad bit more conservative, and hold to a few different doctrines than I do. I don't think we're that far apart on most issues though.
: w8ing4daybreak Tue Jul 01, 2008 - 15:32:03
: Bonnie Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 19:44:19
: w8ing4daybreak Mon Jun 30, 2008 - 19:01:41
The denomination I currently belong to is traditionally against being involved in the government, the court system, the military, or the police force. They believe Jesus taught nonresistance and nonviolence.
They are active in prison ministry, setting up programs to help ex-convicts gain life skills and reintroduction into the community as productive God fearing citizens.
It's one of the things I don't agree with them on 100% on.
I do like their position on prison reform and their attempts to reach prisoners for Christ. I think it's another place we should be serving God way more than we do.
I know I'm not answering the opening question directly.
I will say I'd rather not see the death penalty used, it's been proven that it's not an effective deterrent to crime.
::faint:: Janet, you are almost agreeing with me!
Bonnie, I do think we have some differences of opinion on some things... you are a tad bit more conservative, and hold to a few different doctrines than I do. I don't think we're that far apart on most issues though.
I believe you are right about that. ::supersmiley::
I will repeat the question I posed to Bonnie for anyone to comment on. If civil authority is God ordained, why is it wrong for Christians to participate in it on any level?
: Dennis Wed Jul 02, 2008 - 09:32:58
I will repeat the question I posed to Bonnie for anyone to comment on. If civil authority is God ordained, why is it wrong for Christians to participate in it on any level?
Seems to me that if it's wrong to be a politician, it's wrong to work for civil government as well.
: Dennis Wed Jul 02, 2008 - 09:32:58
I will repeat the question I posed to Bonnie for anyone to comment on. If civil authority is God ordained, why is it wrong for Christians to participate in it on any level?
In days like these, to get elected you will be forced to compromise. An elected Christian is a compromising Christian. It is no shame to run in an election as a Christian, the only shame is to win an election as a Christian.
If I ever ran for office, I might get two votes at the most, but only if I could convince my wife to vote for me.
CRP
: Dennis Wed Jul 02, 2008 - 09:32:58
I will repeat the question I posed to Bonnie for anyone to comment on. If civil authority is God ordained, why is it wrong for Christians to participate in it on any level?
::eatingpopcorn:
Dennis, I don't feel qualified to defend that position, but I know and respect people who hold that position. As far as I am aware, the teaching on this originated as a reaction to some horrific persecution of believers (Anabaptists and others), by the church-state in Europe about 500 years ago. These groups believe that followers of Christ, who are to be humble, loving, and peaceful, should remain separate from the government.
CRP,
Two comments, aren't you making an assumption that one will be forced to compromise? I would be interested to know on what particular issues you believe compromise is necessary in order to be elected and what offices you are referring to. The second issue I want to comment on is the fact that many positions in governement are appointed and not elected. In this discussion, I think we are referring to a wide variety of positions that might include anything from police officers to building inspectors to prosecutors or maybe even folks not in the government such as defense counsel. Are you arguing that Christians are prohibited from any and all of these positions?
W8ing, [and anyone else who cares to comment] I also understand there are [and indeed respect] people who believe it is wrong to be involved in civil government at any level. But I confess I respectfully disagree. At the moment, I am only asking why that is the case where God ordained civil government in the first place. I recognize that there are government officials and others who are involved in the system who are evil to the core. But I personally know many who are honest, dedicated and believers. To say they are wrong because there are others who are bad seems to me to be the same as saying that "I don't go to Church because there are hypocrites there." I do not think it makes sense.
I also anticipate someone will say something like "God ordained a lot of things, that doesn't make it right. For example, he ordained that Judas would betray Christ." In the first place, I am not sure that "ordained" is the right way to describe how God handled Judas. Knowing it would happen and using it for good are not the same thing as causing it or "ordaining" that would be Judas' role. But in any event, we know that what Judas did was evil in and of itself. Enforcing civil law is not the same thing. There are many passages that speak of civil law in a positive way, leading me to believe that it is not the same as the inherently evil things that Judas did or Pharoh did that God nonetheless used for his own purposes. Romans 13 is one example.
Here is another way to look at the question. If a group of Chrisitans found themselves on a deserted island [that cliche enough for everyone?] How should they govern themselves? Should they have no laws except scripture? What if they started to grow and some started to stray? Could they develop building codes? Zoning? Traffic law? Contract law? Punishment for law breakers? Would that all have to be done through the Church? Is the Church really intended for that purpose?
: Dennis Wed Jul 02, 2008 - 14:24:35
CRP,
Two comments, aren't you making an assumption that one will be forced to compromise? I would be interested to know on what particular issues you believe compromise is necessary in order to be elected and what offices you are referring to. The second issue I want to comment on is the fact that many positions in governement are appointed and not elected. In this discussion, I think we are referring to a wide variety of positions that might include anything from police officers to building inspectors to prosecutors or maybe even folks not in the government such as defense counsel. Are you arguing that Christians are prohibited from any and all of these positions?
W8ing, [and anyone else who cares to comment] I also understand there are [and indeed respect] people who believe it is wrong to be involved in civil government at any level. But I confess I respectfully disagree. At the moment, I am only asking why that is the case where God ordained civil government in the first place. I recognize that there are government officials and others who are involved in the system who are evil to the core. But I personally know many who are honest, dedicated and believers. To say they are wrong because there are others who are bad seems to me to be the same as saying that "I don't go to Church because there are hypocrites there." I do not think it makes sense.
I also anticipate someone will say something like "God ordained a lot of things, that doesn't make it right. For example, he ordained that Judas would betray Christ." In the first place, I am not sure that "ordained" is the right way to describe how God handled Judas. Knowing it would happen and using it for good are not the same thing as causing it or "ordaining" that would be Judas' role. But in any event, we know that what Judas did was evil in and of itself. Enforcing civil law is not the same thing. There are many passages that speak of civil law in a positive way, leading me to believe that it is not the same as the inherently evil things that Judas did or Pharoh did that God nonetheless used for his own purposes. Romans 13 is one example.
Here is another way to look at the question. If a group of Chrisitans found themselves on a deserted island [that cliche enough for everyone?] How should they govern themselves? Should they have no laws except scripture? What if they started to grow and some started to stray? Could they develop building codes? Zoning? Traffic law? Contract law? Punishment for law breakers? Would that all have to be done through the Church? Is the Church really intended for that purpose?
I've not seen much honesty in city government elected officials let alone governor or president. As you brought up city treasurer to me and I told you I saw nothing wrong with that. The ones I know are appointed and do little more than pay bills for the city. I don't see that as an elected office in civil government.
There's too many to satisfy, too many crooks along the way to win an office of high authority. Promises made, lies told by the candidate, and crooked deals going on to be honest and get elected. Government has and always will be crooked since man has had his hand in it. If that isn't compromise what is?
Civil government was put in place as I said before for the lawless and the sinners.
I have to go for now.
: Dennis Wed Jul 02, 2008 - 14:24:35
CRP,
Two comments, aren't you making an assumption that one will be forced to compromise? I would be interested to know on what particular issues you believe compromise is necessary in order to be elected and what offices you are referring to. The second issue I want to comment on is the fact that many positions in governement are appointed and not elected. In this discussion, I think we are referring to a wide variety of positions that might include anything from police officers to building inspectors to prosecutors or maybe even folks not in the government such as defense counsel. Are you arguing that Christians are prohibited from any and all of these positions?
W8ing, [and anyone else who cares to comment] I also understand there are [and indeed respect] people who believe it is wrong to be involved in civil government at any level. But I confess I respectfully disagree. At the moment, I am only asking why that is the case where God ordained civil government in the first place. I recognize that there are government officials and others who are involved in the system who are evil to the core. But I personally know many who are honest, dedicated and believers. To say they are wrong because there are others who are bad seems to me to be the same as saying that "I don't go to Church because there are hypocrites there." I do not think it makes sense.
I also anticipate someone will say something like "God ordained a lot of things, that doesn't make it right. For example, he ordained that Judas would betray Christ." In the first place, I am not sure that "ordained" is the right way to describe how God handled Judas. Knowing it would happen and using it for good are not the same thing as causing it or "ordaining" that would be Judas' role. But in any event, we know that what Judas did was evil in and of itself. Enforcing civil law is not the same thing. There are many passages that speak of civil law in a positive way, leading me to believe that it is not the same as the inherently evil things that Judas did or Pharoh did that God nonetheless used for his own purposes. Romans 13 is one example.
Here is another way to look at the question. If a group of Chrisitans found themselves on a deserted island [that cliche enough for everyone?] How should they govern themselves? Should they have no laws except scripture? What if they started to grow and some started to stray? Could they develop building codes? Zoning? Traffic law? Contract law? Punishment for law breakers? Would that all have to be done through the Church? Is the Church really intended for that purpose?
To answer your first question NO. To run in an election one does not have to compromise, but to win it one does. At the first press conference of a committed Christian the question would be "Do you really believe Jesus Christ is the only way of salvation?" I would answer, "Yes, and there is much more I need to tell you besides that!" I won't get elected because the majority of any country of this time does not believe this to be true (a la wide and narrow gates) that means the majority will stand against this position, and it is hard to win an election in a democrasy when the majority is against you.
Bush was forced into the same corner when confronted about Islam, and said "We all pray to the same god." He is a denier of Christ.
Dennis, let me be frank with you. In many discussions, all you seem to want is prohibitions and permissions, those are for the spiritually dead. Are you not able to see things from a higher perspective than that?
CRP
: Circuitridingpreacher Wed Jul 02, 2008 - 17:22:48
Dennis, let me be frank with you. In many discussions, all you seem to want is prohibitions and permissions, those are for the spiritually dead. Are you not able to see things from a higher perspective than that?
CRP
The question was to determine your perspective, not to comment on mine.
: Bonnie Wed Jul 02, 2008 - 16:34:37
Government has and always will be crooked since man has had his hand in it. If that isn't compromise what is?
Bonnie,
I am sorry, I did not intend to leave you out of the discussion, I thought you had bowed out. As to you comment above, man has a hand in all businesses or other enterprises. So how does that distinguish governement from any other type of employment?
: Dennis Thu Jul 03, 2008 - 08:56:56
: Bonnie Wed Jul 02, 2008 - 16:34:37
Government has and always will be crooked since man has had his hand in it. If that isn't compromise what is?
Bonnie,
I am sorry, I did not intend to leave you out of the discussion, I thought you had bowed out. As to you comment above, man has a hand in all businesses or other enterprises. So how does that distinguish governement from any other type of employment?
Dennis, I think that both CRP and I have answered your question. God was the lawgiver and Moses, being a Godly man carried it out. I think that's the difference between then and now.
Man has made their own laws and man enforces them.
All other employment and businesses outside of government is off topic.
: Bonnie Thu Jul 03, 2008 - 09:47:51
: Dennis Thu Jul 03, 2008 - 08:56:56
: Bonnie Wed Jul 02, 2008 - 16:34:37
Government has and always will be crooked since man has had his hand in it. If that isn't compromise what is?
Bonnie,
I am sorry, I did not intend to leave you out of the discussion, I thought you had bowed out. As to you comment above, man has a hand in all businesses or other enterprises. So how does that distinguish governement from any other type of employment?
Dennis, I think that both CRP and I have answered your question. God was the lawgiver and Moses, being a Godly man carried it out. I think that's the difference between then and now.
Man has made their own laws and man enforces them.
All other employment and businesses outside of government is off topic.
Bonnie, I understood your comment above to be your viewpoint on the original question. I understood you to say that participation in governemnt is wrong, at least in part, because "Government has and always will be crooked since man has had his hand in it." My question was simply how does that distinguish government from any other walk of life. While you are under no obligation to answer, I am interested in you viewpoint. I believe this question is a logical follow up to a point you brought into the discussion and do not believe it is off topic. As far as being off topic, I am not sure I understand the point you are trying to make with Moses.
: Dennis Thu Jul 03, 2008 - 08:54:09
: Circuitridingpreacher Wed Jul 02, 2008 - 17:22:48
Dennis, let me be frank with you. In many discussions, all you seem to want is prohibitions and permissions, those are for the spiritually dead. Are you not able to see things from a higher perspective than that?
CRP
The question was to determine your perspective, not to comment on mine.
It is easy to sit there and ask questions, the shame is that you never seem to offer up any answers.
You do realize that the serpent in the garden operated very similarly.
CRP
: Dennis Thu Jul 03, 2008 - 14:08:31
: Bonnie Thu Jul 03, 2008 - 09:47:51
: Dennis Thu Jul 03, 2008 - 08:56:56
: Bonnie Wed Jul 02, 2008 - 16:34:37
Government has and always will be crooked since man has had his hand in it. If that isn't compromise what is?
Bonnie,
I am sorry, I did not intend to leave you out of the discussion, I thought you had bowed out. As to you comment above, man has a hand in all businesses or other enterprises. So how does that distinguish government from any other type of employment?
Dennis, I think that both CRP and I have answered your question. God was the lawgiver and Moses, being a Godly man carried it out. I think that's the difference between then and now.
Man has made their own laws and man enforces them.
All other employment and businesses outside of government is off topic.
Bonnie, I understood your comment above to be your viewpoint on the original question. I understood you to say that participation in government is wrong, at least in part, because "Government has and always will be crooked since man has had his hand in it." My question was simply how does that distinguish government from any other walk of life. While you are under no obligation to answer, I am interested in you viewpoint. I believe this question is a logical follow up to a point you brought into the discussion and do not believe it is off topic. As far as being off topic, I am not sure I understand the point you are trying to make with Moses.
How does that distinguish government from any other walk of life?
I don't understand your question. Could you make it a little plainer as to what you're comparing government to?
I am simply saying that laws and the making of them are different today as compared to say the Mosaic law. God made those laws and Moses carried them out.
It was the government or rulers who jailed Apostle Paul, Peter, John because they preached. They beheaded John because he told them it wasn't lawful for a man to have his brother's wife. It was the government or king who threw the Hebrew children into the fiery furnace for not bowing to their idol. They exiled John to the island of Patmos for refusing to worship their idol, etc, etc. Government is not a friend to religion. Don't you realize that the Antichrist will be a highly political, proclaimed Christian? And the false prophet will come from a most popular religion that is very close to the real thing?