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I am not Catholic but I do attend mass occasionally. I am a Christian. My question is would you be offended if I took the Lord's Supper during mass?

Thanks,
nhim

An excellent question.  I have visited during mass as well and did not participate.  Would I be welcome?  Many of my son's in-laws are "catholic" (by name, older generation attends mass occasionally.)  I may want to show some "unity" with them.  Can I?  Permitted?  why or why not?   

To be fair, I would have to ask the same thing if "they" (whoever not me) would be free to participate in our lord's supper as well?

This is from the Catechism:

Ecclesial communities derived from the Reformation and separated from the Catholic Church, "have not preserved the proper reality of the Eucharistic mystery in its fullness, especially because of the absence of the sacrament of Holy Orders." It is for this reason that Eucharistic intercommunion with these communities is not possible for the Catholic Church. However these ecclesial communities, "when they commemorate the Lord's death and resurrection in the Holy Supper ... profess that it signifies life in communion with Christ and await his coming in glory." (Catechism of the Catholic Church, number 1400)

Why would Catholics want someone who doesn't even believe in Transubstantiation to partake of the same with them?  Why would anyone who didn't believe in Transubstantiation even want to partake of the same with Catholics?  Even as a non believer, I don't think they should allow it.  Why should they contribute to someone Else's hypocrisy?

Nhim - welcome  ::tippinghat::


I am no longer in communion with the Roman Catholic Church, but I have dealt with this issue after I converted to Protestantism. 

: nhim  Fri Dec 12, 2008 - 17:13:42

I am not Catholic but I do attend mass occasionally. I am a Christian. My question is would you be offended if I took the Lord's Supper during mass?

Basically, the answer is yes, with an important qualification.   The issue really isn't offence, it has more to do how the body of Christ is honored.  Furthermore, it is really for your protection that the RCC does not allow most non-Catholics to take communion. 

Catholics, Orthodox and some Protestants believe the Eucharist to be the Body of Christ.  If you take it thinking, ooh, there is a snack in this service,  your reception of it might be considered offensive.   Paul warns about the communion not being taken in an unworthy manner.  This would be considered unworthy. (1 Corinthians 11:28-30).  It can even result in death.  (I Cor. 11:30), although I have never heard of this happening today.

: zoonance  Fri Dec 12, 2008 - 17:27:09
An excellent question.  I have visited during mass as well and did not participate.  Would I be welcome? 

You are certainly welcome to go to a mass.  There is nice alternative in the Catholic Church. You can cross your arms across your chest.  This means you want a blessing instead of communion.   The priest simply blesses you and you walk away.  The only problem here is this happens so rarely, the priest may not understand the signal.  You might want to give it a try.  If the priest is confused, say that you wanted a blessing.

Many of my son's in-laws are "catholic" (by name, older generation attends mass occasionally.)  I may want to show some "unity" with them.  Can I?  Permitted?  why or why not?  

Hi, zoo.

You are not permitted by canon law.  The reason why is as I said above but also because you are not in communion with the Catholic Church.   Showing family unity is one thing, doing it in a church is another.  This is fair because if you want to build family unity, you can do it in a number of ways (going to a football game,  praying together, etc.).  But if you are in someone else's house,   you got to play by their rules.   

To be fair, I would have to ask the same thing if "they" (whoever not me) would be free to participate in our lord's supper as well?

With Protestant churches, you have to consult with your minister or pastor.  In my ex-church (Protestant), they invite all who believe in Christ to the communion table.  In higher churches, the sacrament may be limited to church members. 

I am preparing to become an Orthodox Christian.  We don't allow anyone but Orthodox into our communion, mostly for the same reasons listed above.  We do have a blessed bread that all can eat, but only Orthodox Christians can take communion.  It would be highly offensive for a non-Orthodox to do so.

Hope this helps.

Well answered Trifecta,
                                      As a previous Protestant who has entered the Holy Catholic Church, I recommend you study exactly what the Eucharist is before wanting to take it. If you don't believe it is the flesh of Our Lord, then I would advise out of respect, that you don't. Remember what The Bible says about bringing condemnation upon yourself if you take it in an unworthy matter. This is seriously how we take it. You may disagree with it. That's fine, and your free choice.

As Trifecta said, a respectful alternative is to ask for a blessing with your arms crossed. This would indicate you are either a Protestant or that you are not in a state of grace. Other than that, please attend. I still attend friends Protestant services. Christian Unity is becoming more and more important

This is just nuts...  Who cares if Catholic's care of you take communion.  If you want to take it take it.  If they get offended, so be it.  It's not up to them.. Christ said...  as often as you take it, take it for me.  So if you take it or not, when, where or served by whom is between you and God... 

They are hypocrites to not offer it to you.  They say you can't take it unworthily...  UGH... who are they to say you are not worthy to take communion because you are not part of one religion or another? God did not say that, He said it is for all believers.  Are you a believer?  Have you accepted Christ as LORD?  Then you can partake in communion.  IF you trust GOD, and Jesus is the savior who died on the cross for your sins, they do not have grounds to deny you.  It's a joke.  They hold their religion so dear, to the the exclusion of true believers?  When I see people in the mass who are living in sin, drunks, liars, thieves all "WORTHY" to take communion because they wear the name Catholic?  How that must grieve the Holy Spirit of truth.

It is a wafer and wine...  God sees your heart.  If the person next to you thinks it's real blood or not... is not relevant.  I've seen Catholics take communion in protestant churches...  so if they can, we can.   It's just that simple. No one will arrest you.  And God does not forbid it...  they did that all on their own.  Jesus says... take it.  The hypocrisy in this one issue is just ridiculous.

Fallen Knight( I think you are the only Catholic that answered),

I don't know for sure what exactly happens at Eucharist. It is truly such a profound mystery.

So, in this light, would it still be offensive?

Thanks

Excellent reply Trifecta.  I think you summed up the Catholic view quite nicely.  The Catholic position is not met to offend anyone who may be only visiting.  Everyone, including non-Catholics, is welcomed to attend Mass and may participate in the Mass, with the only exception being partaking of the Eucharist.  It might be noted that many Catholics do not recieve the Eucharist during Mass.

It may also be noted that anyone can register as a member of a Catholic Church.  Many who have married someone in the Church without converting are registered members, including those that are perhaps thinking of converting.

: kensington  Sun Dec 14, 2008 - 02:01:18
This is just nuts...  Who cares if Catholic's care of you take communion.  If you want to take it take it.  If they get offended, so be it.  It's not up to them.. Christ said...  as often as you take it, take it for me.  So if you take it or not, when, where or served by whom is between you and God... 

They are hypocrites to not offer it to you.  They say you can't take it unworthily...  UGH... who are they to say you are not worthy to take communion because you are not part of one religion or another? God did not say that, He said it is for all believers.  Are you a believer?  Have you accepted Christ as LORD?  Then you can partake in communion.  IF you trust GOD, and Jesus is the savior who died on the cross for your sins, they do not have grounds to deny you.  It's a joke.  They hold their religion so dear, to the the exclusion of true believers?  When I see people in the mass who are living in sin, drunks, liars, thieves all "WORTHY" to take communion because they wear the name Catholic?  How that must grieve the Holy Spirit of truth.

It is a wafer and wine...  God sees your heart.  If the person next to you thinks it's real blood or not... is not relevant.  I've seen Catholics take communion in protestant churches...  so if they can, we can.   It's just that simple. No one will arrest you.  And God does not forbid it...  they did that all on their own.  Jesus says... take it.  The hypocrisy in this one issue is just ridiculous.

Your ignorance and disrespect concerning these matters just absolutely amazes me.  First, Catholics are forbidden to take communion in a Protestant church.  As a Catholic, I don't even understand why a Catholic would want to.  It may be just a wafer and wine to you, but it means so much more to us.

As for the rest of your rant...it would help if you knew what you were talking about.  I would suggest reading Fallen Knight's comments above.  Please do some research on Catholic teachings concerning the Eucharist.

It was my understanding one had to go through confirmation first before one could take the wafer.  That usually happens in the preteen years.  It's one of the seven sacraments.

love,

Sopranette

: sopranette  Mon Dec 15, 2008 - 08:36:42
It was my understanding one had to go through confirmation first before one could take the wafer.  That usually happens in the preteen years.  It's one of the seven sacraments.

love,

Sopranette

Greetings Sopranette,
One does not need to go through confirmation in order to take communion.  First Communion can actually take place at an young age, normally around 7 or 8 years old.  Before this takes place, children usually go to their first confession.  Much goes into a child's first communion, which follows intense preparation.  It is considered to be a very important step in the life of a Catholic, whether First Communion takes place as a child or an adult.

First Communion is not practiced in Eastern Cathlolic Churches since they usually celebrate infant communion.  Even Lutherans celebrate First Communion.

"First, Catholics are forbidden to take communion in a Protestant church."

That is not true and a great basic example of your ignorance of the Protestant Churches.  The invitation in the Protestant churches or the ones I have attended all over the US would go something like this... "If you consider yourself part of the body of Christ, you have received Jesus Christ as LORD through the repentance of sins, we invite you to take communion with us"....   I've seen it, I've seen visiting Catholics participate, and I'm not ashamed to say so.

I am frankly tired of the intimidation and condemnation that the Catholics try to dump on the rest of us about who is the church, and who are the true believers, and what communion is and is not, and who is called to participate.  NO WHERE did Jesus imply that ANY BELIEVER should be excluded from taking it.  We are HIS children, the Catholic church did not die for our sins, HE did, they did not institute communion, HE DID, and it's not about you... it's about HIM.  So... 

The next time I'm in a Catholic Church... and communion is served, I'm taking it... in rememberance of HIM... Christ the LORD, Savior to the WORD, and to all who BELIEVE... not just Catholics.  It has nothing to do with disrespect, but more to do with the disrespect that the Catholics dump on anyone over issues like this...   Communion is supposed to be to all believers... and it is for me. 

The only part I would not do, is drink the wine, I don't drink after groups... if not for that, I would take the wine too.  OR maybe I should just tell my family... I won't attend any more Catholic any things for you... or with you, don't invite me. It's a slap in the face to be told I am not worthy to take communion when I know that it is the BLOOD of Jesus shed for me at Calvary that makes me worthy to take it and that line in the mass is a farce.  Either way... I'm tired of this game you all play.  Are you insulted?  Take it to the LORD.  That is where I have to take it each time I attend and they reject me as a believer with this silliness.

BTW... I have it on authority if anyone did go up to receive it, the priest would give it.   He would not refuse you. 

They say they don't think you are worthy, but if you went up and opened your hand, they would give it to you... 

Dear Kensington,
                           May I suggest that in a line of a few hundred people, with one every few seconds, that if you walked up and put your hand out, the Priests probably would indeed give it to you. Obviously thinking were simply a Catholic. He doesn't need to know you. If however you got before him and stated you were a Protestant and didn't believe in the Eucharist, the result may be different.

Brother Kensington, I read your comments on how you feel we Catholics talk about you and acknowledge it. If I may, can I say to you that as a Catholic , I have felt "exactly" from Protestants towards me, that you feel now.

Therefore I ask, forgive and correct me brother.

But may I also draw your memory to the history of The Holy Temple in Jerusalem. Can you remember reading the stories of those invading armies who desecrated the temple. Some even taking Prostitutes onto the alter. Not sure how you felt, but when I read those stories, I felt a mixture of rage and sadness over what those men were doing to what was so obviously something truly Holy and Special to the Jews.

To true Catholics, the Eucharist is truly Holy and Special. I'm not asking you to agree with me, I'm simply asking you in Christian love to acknowledge it is our belief.

Now then, you may attend our Mass, and take the Eucharist in whatever Protestant unbelieving manner you like.

But what in truth have you achieved by doing so?
A victory of some sort?   For no one but yourself.
A defiance of some sort? For no one but yourself
Whether you acknowledge it or not, you have simply become like those invading armies, coming into the temple and doing what you like.
If you don't believe the Eucharist is the spiritual body of Christ, then don't take it.No one is going to point you out and whisper. There will probably be a few Catholics who don't go up. You're still welcomed to the Mass.


"They will not attend to our Eucharist for they do not believe the bread we eat is the flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ"........Ignatius Approx 96AD
( Ignatius was a disciple of the Apostle John )

Peace

: kensington  Mon Dec 15, 2008 - 23:40:21
"First, Catholics are forbidden to take communion in a Protestant church."

That is not true and a great basic example of your ignorance of the Protestant Churches.  The invitation in the Protestant churches or the ones I have attended all over the US would go something like this... "If you consider yourself part of the body of Christ, you have received Jesus Christ as LORD through the repentance of sins, we invite you to take communion with us"....   I've seen it, I've seen visiting Catholics participate, and I'm not ashamed to say so.

Actually, this is true.  The Catholic Church prohibits Catholics from taking communion in a Protestant church.  Period.  I love it when non-Catholics tell me, a Catholic, what the Church teaches.

Catholics may be forbidden by the Catholic church from participating, but are not forbidden by any Baptist church I've been to.

love,

Sopranette

The Orthodox have a similar discipline regarding the reception of Holy Communion: we are forbidden from partaking of other churches' communion observations (memorial Lord's Suppers).  And even if we plan on receiving Holy Communion in another Orthodox parish, we are supposed to contact the priest there beforehand since he won't know our status when we go forward to receive, though this is often honored more in the breach than in the observance, .

The discipline for Orthodox of closed communion does, as for Roman Catholics, have to do with the fact that what we believe about the Eucharist is not shared by most Protestant parishes.  Only Roman Catholics, some Anglicans, and here and there some Lutherans share substantively similar (though there are some differences) understandings of the Eucharist with Orthodox.

Orthodox cannot receive in this other churches because we are not in communion with them, and the Holy Eucharist is not an indivdiual matter--as kensington demonstrates by her views: it's all about her and screw the rest of the churches and what they believe--but is a family affair.  One cannot share communion with those with whom one is not in communion.

But for the Orthodox (presumably also Roman Catholics, but I don't know), Holy Communion is not just simply received, but one prepares to receive it.  That preparation includes fasting and confession of one's sins.  Just as Jesus told us to confess our sins and be reconciled before offering our gift on the altar, so Orthodox Christians fast and confess in repentance for their sins, and then come to receive Holy Communion.  The specifics of the discplines of confession will differ slightly from parish to parish, diocese to diocese, and even one's priest will apply different healing measures to different parishioners within the same congregation; though the general disciplines are the same.  We fast from all food and drink from the night before receiving Holy Communion until after we take Holy Communion.  And we confess our sins, usually at Vespers the night before, though at other times as well.

I know Protestants who have an aversion to the epistle of James and Philippians 2:12-13 will see these disciplines are horrid little rules barring Christians from their "right" to the Lord's Supper.  But this is a problem for Protestants, not for Orthodox.  We know we're sick and need medicine.  And though medicine is not always pleasant, we know it's purpose is not to bar us from the medicine of immortality, but, rather, to make us better able to receive it.

Healy, you state,

"We know we're sick and need medicine.  And though medicine is not always pleasant, we know it's purpose is not to bar us from the medicine of immortality, but, rather, to make us better able to receive it."

Do you consider the Eucharist "medicine"? Could you explain that a little more?

Also, I'm hearing you say you do not believe in being in communion with the church "universal" (we are all brothers who trust in Christ for salvation,no matter what denomination), since you do not commune with other churches? Is this correct? What if you were on a long vacation? You would not meet with another church and take the Eucharist?

: CDHealy  Tue Dec 16, 2008 - 09:00:06
But for the Orthodox (presumably also Roman Catholics, but I don't know), Holy Communion is not just simply received, but one prepares to receive it.  That preparation includes fasting and confession of one's sins.  Just as Jesus told us to confess our sins and be reconciled before offering our gift on the altar, so Orthodox Christians fast and confess in repentance for their sins, and then come to receive Holy Communion.  The specifics of the disciplines of confession will differ slightly from parish to parish, diocese to diocese, and even one's priest will apply different healing measures to different parishioners within the same congregation; though the general disciplines are the same.  We fast from all food and drink from the night before receiving Holy Communion until after we take Holy Communion.  And we confess our sins, usually at Vespers the night before, though at other times as well.

This would be correct.  Fasting and confession are necessary before receiving communion.

: nhim  Tue Dec 16, 2008 - 12:42:05Do you consider the Eucharist "medicine"? Could you explain that a little more?

St. Ignatios of Antioch, writing in AD 107, says of the Eucharist: "breaking one and the same bread, which is the medicine of immortality, and the antidote to prevent us from dying" (Ephesians 20.2).

Because Christ is divine, and because the communication of his divinity pertains to his body, and because the Eucharist is, by grace, made to be his body and his blood, then the Eucharist likewise communicates to us immortality, the divine life.

As Romans 5 and the book of Hebrews point out, our problem is not merely a moral one (the personal guilt of personal sins), but it is an ontological one as well: we are infected body and soul with death.  But consumption of the divine life (in the Eucharist) is medicine which is an antidote to the mortality infecting us, and consuming it, immortality, the divine life, transforms our mortal self into divine life.

St. Paul notes this in 1 Corinthians 10:16-17: we literally participate in Christ's body and blood by consuming the bread and the wine--which is why, by the way, we cannot consume the ritual sacrifices of the pagans because they communicate death.  And this is why, when we take this medicine in the wrong way (1 Corinthians 11) we get sick and die.

: nhim  Tue Dec 16, 2008 - 12:42:05Also, I'm hearing you say you do not believe in being in communion with the church "universal" (we are all brothers who trust in Christ for salvation,no matter what denomination), since you do not commune with other churches? Is this correct? What if you were on a long vacation? You would not meet with another church and take the Eucharist?

Christ's body is not divided, and yet in Christendom schisms abound and grow each week.  So, no, the premise that all Christians are somehow part of Christ's body while at the same time also divided from one another is a self-refuting contradiction.  Not all Christians are part of Christ's body because Christ's body cannot be divided.

But, the Spirit blows where he will, and we are not to judge lest we be judged, so we do not deny the claims of individuals to be Christians, out of charity and a reluctance to blaspheme the Holy Spirit.  But we do say that there is only one Body of Christ, we can know what that Body is, and we can know who is visibly within it and who is not.  Those Christians who are not visibly part of Christ's one body may yet be Christians, but their life is a difficult one, cut off as they are from Christ's visible Body.

But not communing in another Christians group is not a statement of whether or not the persons in that group are Christians, it's a statement that their group is not the Body of Christ.

As to what I would personally do if I didn't have access to an Orthodox parish?  By default I would observe Sunday prayers with my family amongst ourselves.  In consultation with my priest, I might also attend a relative's/friend's worship service, but I would not commune (if offered).  And there might be prayers that I could not pray with the assembly, or songs I could not sing.  But I rarely go to places where there aren't any Orthodox parishes, so I'm not often faced with this problem.

"But may I also draw your memory to the history of The Holy Temple in Jerusalem. Can you remember reading the stories of those invading armies who desecrated the temple. Some even taking Prostitutes onto the alter. Not sure how you felt, but when I read those stories, I felt a mixture of rage and sadness over what those men were doing to what was so obviously something truly Holy and Special to the Jews.

To true Catholics, the Eucharist is truly Holy and Special. I'm not asking you to agree with me, I'm simply asking you in Christian love to acknowledge it is our belief.

Now then, you may attend our Mass, and take the Eucharist in whatever Protestant unbelieving manner you like."

IS THIS A JOKE?  Are you really likening my believing that the BLOOD of Christ shed for me at Calvary making me worthy to take communion in any church to "prostitutes" in the Tabernacle?  Did you really just do that while calling me brother?  The term brother you use to dismiss me, would entail my being a believer, a member of the body of Christ, and worthy to take communion. 

The Eucharist is special?  Or the partaking in communion in Jesus is special, if it were not special to me, this would be a non issue. This is the mindset that is so insulting... that you claim it is more special for you than it is for the rest of the Body of Christ...  Hypocrisy my friend.

Taking it in "whatever unbelieving manner" that I like?  Did you really say that?  Jesus died beaten and naked upon the cross for me.  I am a blood bought, born again, Spirit filled, child of the LIVING GOD...  now in what way does that make me the unbeliever in this? 

And ... I am not your brother.  I am a girl child of the Living God, who is insulted by your "above the protestants catholic attitude". 

: broach972  Tue Dec 16, 2008 - 12:46:26

: CDHealy  Tue Dec 16, 2008 - 09:00:06
But for the Orthodox (presumably also Roman Catholics, but I don't know), Holy Communion is not just simply received, but one prepares to receive it.  That preparation includes fasting and confession of one's sins.  Just as Jesus told us to confess our sins and be reconciled before offering our gift on the altar, so Orthodox Christians fast and confess in repentance for their sins, and then come to receive Holy Communion.  The specifics of the disciplines of confession will differ slightly from parish to parish, diocese to diocese, and even one's priest will apply different healing measures to different parishioners within the same congregation; though the general disciplines are the same.  We fast from all food and drink from the night before receiving Holy Communion until after we take Holy Communion.  And we confess our sins, usually at Vespers the night before, though at other times as well.

This would be correct.  Fasting and confession are necessary before receiving communion.

This is not true... my catholic family takes communion every Sunday at mass... they do not attend confession and they do not fast.  They go to mass.. and they all take communion any time it's offered.  Communion is served at every mass... and no one asks anyone if they have confessed or fasted.  I guess what this means is that they must NEVER sin... cause I know they take it.  Also... I know they do not attend confession every week too. 

I think that perhaps the two of you sit and research the rules of the church to argue here and to press on others... but most in fact I bet 99% of Catholics around the world to NOT confess and fast before mass each week. 

: broach972  Tue Dec 16, 2008 - 07:47:25

: kensington  Mon Dec 15, 2008 - 23:40:21
"First, Catholics are forbidden to take communion in a Protestant church."

That is not true and a great basic example of your ignorance of the Protestant Churches.  The invitation in the Protestant churches or the ones I have attended all over the US would go something like this... "If you consider yourself part of the body of Christ, you have received Jesus Christ as LORD through the repentance of sins, we invite you to take communion with us"....   I've seen it, I've seen visiting Catholics participate, and I'm not ashamed to say so.

Actually, this is true.  The Catholic Church prohibits Catholics from taking communion in a Protestant church.  Period.  I love it when non-Catholics tell me, a Catholic, what the Church teaches.

Well, you may have a handle on what is being taught, but you sure do not have a handle on what is being done.   Because, I have seen Catholics take communion in other church's, and I have seen them take it without fasting or going to confession...  just another bit of the hypocrisy that is the Catholic religion.  All this very religiousness that they portray for others, and flat out doing as they please in their own lives, using the "catholic" banner to justify them in the sin. 

I am not worried that I may offend a Catholic, I would be more worried if I offended Christ... He is the ONLY one who died for me.  And I know that He says I am in the body and I can partake in communion.  It doesn't matter to me who is serving it.  They are not the ones it represents or who did the dying.  Like I said... I'm tired of your "exclusion" religion.  It's not what Christ taught. 

Kensington, so in other words, you are saying that there are bad Catholics out there?  Wow!!! I am shocked!!! Stop the presses!!  Are you are telling me that there are some Catholics out there who do not follow the teachings of the Church?  I just don't know what to think.  I cannot believe that there are actually hypocrites in the Church.  Wow, thank you Kensington for opening my eyes.  I just didn't know this.

What was I thinking?  Before I became Catholic, I never knew that such Christians existed.  Even when I attended a Baptist church or even a Presbyterian church, I never knew that the people I attended Church were perfect Christians, who followed every tenet and guideline of their respective denomination.  Wow, I wasn't aware that Protestants were the only group that didn't have these type of people in their denominations.  Wow, thank you Kensington for pointing out the fact that the Catholic Church is the only church that contains this type of hypocrisy.

::whistle::

: kensington  Sun Dec 14, 2008 - 02:01:18
This is just nuts...  Who cares if Catholic's care of you take communion.  If you want to take it take it.  If they get offended, so be it.  It's not up to them.. Christ said...  as often as you take it, take it for me.  So if you take it or not, when, where or served by whom is between you and God... 

They are hypocrites to not offer it to you.  They say you can't take it unworthily...  UGH... who are they to say you are not worthy to take communion because you are not part of one religion or another? God did not say that, He said it is for all believers.  Are you a believer?  Have you accepted Christ as LORD?  Then you can partake in communion.  IF you trust GOD, and Jesus is the savior who died on the cross for your sins, they do not have grounds to deny you.  It's a joke.  They hold their religion so dear, to the the exclusion of true believers?  When I see people in the mass who are living in sin, drunks, liars, thieves all "WORTHY" to take communion because they wear the name Catholic?  How that must grieve the Holy Spirit of truth.

It is a wafer and wine...  God sees your heart.  If the person next to you thinks it's real blood or not... is not relevant.  I've seen Catholics take communion in protestant churches...  so if they can, we can.   It's just that simple. No one will arrest you.  And God does not forbid it...  they did that all on their own.  Jesus says... take it.  The hypocrisy in this one issue is just ridiculous.

AMEN....The Catholics Priests and the Vatican.....Are equal to the Scribes and Pharasies that crusified Christ....The try and tell us how to live by the law....While in the back, they commit unspeakable sins.   Then step on to the Pulpit and decide who is worthy and who is not worthy to accept the blood of Christ.

: broach972  Tue Dec 16, 2008 - 07:47:25

: kensington  Mon Dec 15, 2008 - 23:40:21
"First, Catholics are forbidden to take communion in a Protestant church."

That is not true and a great basic example of your ignorance of the Protestant Churches.  The invitation in the Protestant churches or the ones I have attended all over the US would go something like this... "If you consider yourself part of the body of Christ, you have received Jesus Christ as LORD through the repentance of sins, we invite you to take communion with us"....   I've seen it, I've seen visiting Catholics participate, and I'm not ashamed to say so.

Actually, this is true.  The Catholic Church prohibits Catholics from taking communion in a Protestant church.  Period.  I love it when non-Catholics tell me, a Catholic, what the Church teaches.

So....Who appointed the Catholics in charge of where I can or can not take communion?

: Corbley  Wed Dec 17, 2008 - 11:52:30So....Who appointed the Catholics in charge of where I can or can not take communion?

Boy, ya'll's ability to misread plain print is amazing.

The Catholic Church does not dictate to you where you can take communion, and only prohibits you from taking communion in one place: a Catholic parish--which, given your bigoted hatred of all thing Catholic, should not bother you in the slightest.

: Corbley  Wed Dec 17, 2008 - 11:51:15AMEN....The Catholics Priests and the Vatican.....Are equal to the Scribes and Pharasies that crusified Christ....

Wow.  Your ignorance is apparently unlimited.  See the "Catholics [sic] Priests and the Vatican" sort of kind of believe that Jesus was crucified for our salvation.  You appear to be trying to smear them with the epithet "Christ killers."  The anti-semitism latent in your taunt is evident.

: Corbley  Wed Dec 17, 2008 - 11:51:15The try and tell us how to live

Nope.  They're only telling Catholics how to live.  You're not Catholic.  You don't have to listen.

: Corbley  Wed Dec 17, 2008 - 11:51:15by the law....

Uh, nope again.  They teach salvation by grace through faith, not by adherence to the Law.

: Corbley  Wed Dec 17, 2008 - 11:51:15While in the back, they commit unspeakable sins.  

As does every Protestant denomination.  Oh, I forgot.  Protestants never sin and have never ever even once sexually abused anyone and then had the leadership cover it up.  My bad.

: Corbley  Wed Dec 17, 2008 - 11:51:15Then step on to the Pulpit and decide who is worthy and who is not worthy to accept the blood of Christ.

Well, that's what love does.  I mean if the Corinthian Christians died because they took Holy Communion unworthily, wouldn't it be appropriate for the priest to sort of mention that to his flock?

: CDHealy  Wed Dec 17, 2008 - 12:29:15

: Corbley  Wed Dec 17, 2008 - 11:52:30So....Who appointed the Catholics in charge of where I can or can not take communion?

Boy, ya'll's ability to misread plain print is amazing.

The Catholic Church does not dictate to you where you can take communion, and only prohibits you from taking communion in one place: a Catholic parish--which, given your bigoted hatred of all thing Catholic, should not bother you in the slightest.

I would think that trying to argue that "we" have a right to take communion in a Catholic parish as the primary reasoning for doing so would qualify as "partaking in an unworthy manner".

That is not what is argued...  what was argued is that the communion if of Christ, He gave it to us and it is hypocrisy for one group to deny it from another when HE gave it to us all.  We take it because of Him... not because of what religion we are.  We take it because of the meaning it has from Calvary... not where we stand when we take it. 

Yes... I guess you can say we speak to our right to take it...  God did bring it to the believers, and it is for the believers, their right to take it is absolute.  It is for the believer who understands Calvary.  It is.  If you read the word, the things God gave us, belong to us, the gifts and instructions that Jesus left us do belong to us.  He said it... your being offended by us knowing that, is beside the point.

CD and Broach must be the ONLY true practicing Catholics out there.  Because the rest of them are just people.  The truth is, the Catholic church practices hypocrisy on the highest level to deny anyone to take communion... but the original OP was would it offend them... the answered yes.  WHY?  Because they are the one worthy to take communion?  BUNK... that is bunk.  Being a Catholic is not makes anyone worthy... it is the blood shed at Calvary, and if it offends them that someone takes communion...  that is evidence that they don't care about people at all...  just their religiousness before man.  Because, if anyone who was saved could take communion.. they would just be like the rest of us... Saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ... but that won't do for them.  They must have works and be seen as above us... not communing with us, and apart from us.

They are the division that is in the body of Christ.  BTW...  if they look it up, they will see that communion can be given to non Catholics...  But, they hold so tight to their works.... who really cares?  Yes, I know it is my right to take communion, just as it is my right to pray, praise, worship, to be called saved, to read the word and call it my own...  Jesus died to give us things and they are ours.  Someone else's title who "CLAIMS" to be Christian setting themselves up to deny us that.. is what is wrong.

I was not speaking to "my right" to take it... I was speaking to the right of ALL believers to take communion at any time.  What the Catholics teach... it should not be so. 

 
Healy,

"But not communing in another Christians group is not a statement of whether or not the persons in that group are Christians, it's a statement that their group is not the Body of Christ."

I'm a little confused....how can someone be a Christian but not part of the Body of Christ?

Still trying to figure out how to use this quote thing.....

: nhim  Wed Dec 17, 2008 - 17:08:34I'm a little confused....how can someone be a Christian but not part of the Body of Christ?

Admittedly, from your perspective it appears contradictory.  I gather that you believe in the concept of a "spiritual" (or invisible) Body of Christ which has not incarnate shape and is made up of as many believers as confess Christ.

But this is backwards from  what St. Paul teaches in Romans and 1 Corinthians.

The Body of Christ is an incarnate, visible Body.  It has shape and form.  It has these things because  Christ himself is incarnate, he has a human body, with shape and form.  Therefore his mystical (not the same thing as invisible) Body, the Church, therefore must share the same characteristics.

Therefore we must ask, if Christ's Body has a visible shape and form, where is it?  Well, it is wherever the Church is that continued forward in time from the days of the Apostles.  It is the Church that has never ceased to be.  It is the one founded on the apostles, and which we can trace both forward in time to today, and backward in time from today.

No one of us can take the New Testament, read it like a blueprint and construct the New Testament Church.  This is where the Restorationists, the Campbells and the Stones and their followers, got it wrong.  The New Testament Church is a living organism, like a living human body.  You don't just cobble it together from parts like a Frankestein's monster, and juice it to life.

So, those Christian groups that divided themselves from the Body eventually had to die off, just as when you cut off one of your limbs, the limb will not continue to live in its separation.  And Christ's Body, like Christ himself, cannot be divided.  So any of the multiple tens of thousands of Protestant groups, since they lack the essential characteristics of what it means to be Christ's Body, cannot be Christ's Body.  As offensive as that sounds, it is really that simple.

But just as God honored Cornelius and his family by making them Christians outside the normal order of things, as he did also the Samaritans, God can make other persons Christians outside the normal way of doing things. That is to say, the schism among the Christian groups outside the Church does not prohibit God from saving others.  If such schisms had not occurred, then it would be the case that all Christians would be part of Christ's Body.  But because schisms divide Christians around the world, God is not going to fail to save those who come to him in faith--even if their Christian life must be antennuated and lived outside the life of the Church.  If Christians outside the Body of Christ are parts/members of cutoff parts of Christ's Body, it does not mean God cannot make them Christian, any more than their being Christian makes their cutoff groups Christ's Body.

Christ's Body is not simply the amalgamation of all believers--that's the fallacy of composition. 

Nealy,

What I think I'm hearing you say is that Christians who are not members of the Orthodox Church are not part of the body of Christ. If this is the case, looks like you have much in common with some Churches of Christ-who believe if you are not part of their fellowship (and the original church according to them) then you are outside the body of Christ.

I'll have to ponder some more on your post as my mind cannot wrap around how you believe that someone who is not part of the body of Christ (the Orthodox church) can still be a follower of Christ.

I do believe that the body of Christ is visible-when I look in the mirror and when I look at another Christian. "Christ in me, the hope of glory".

"So any of the multiple tens of thousands of Protestant groups, since they lack the essential characteristics of what it means to be Christ's Body, cannot be Christ's Body.  As offensive as that sounds, it is really that simple."

I'm surprised they let you post here... that crack right there, is against the rules... and totally ignorant.  But, it does reveal the unloving, ungodly, division minded purpose of the Catholic Church.  Nice.

Kensington:

I have said nothing more than what you and other Catholic bashers have said about the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, the difference being that I haven't called Protestants idolaters and blasphemers or claimed that some renowned Protestant leader blasphemes God by his mere existence.  Goose and gander and all that, Kensie.  If you can post your vitriol and it's not against the rules, I guess it's okay for me to post my own comments.

Now that's rich calling the Catholic Church divisive, when it's you Protestants that have added about 25,000 schisms to the Christian world and at the rate of about 5 per week.  Pot meet kettle.

And again, let me remind you, I'm Eastern Orthodox, not Roman Catholic.  I do happen to believe some things about Rome and schism (as they do the Orthodox and schism), but that's not something I'm going to pursue here.

: kensington  Thu Dec 18, 2008 - 00:17:26
"So any of the multiple tens of thousands of Protestant groups, since they lack the essential characteristics of what it means to be Christ's Body, cannot be Christ's Body.  As offensive as that sounds, it is really that simple."

I'm surprised they let you post here... that crack right there, is against the rules... and totally ignorant.  But, it does reveal the unloving, ungodly, division minded purpose of the Catholic Church.  Nice.

Oh, this is indeed rich.  Spare me the hypocrisy!!  You are in no position to be lecturing anyone concerning the rules of this forum.  You have been nothing but disrespectul towards my faith and the Catholic Church in general.  I echo CD's response and sentiments in his previous post.

It is you who is ignorant on this subject, as you are on many others.  First, CD is not a Catholic.  Second, you are clueless when it comes to knowing and understanding the Catholic attitude towards non-Catholics.  As Lumen Gentium states...

The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ's disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.

The Catholic Church welcomes non-Catholics to attend Mass and even register as members of local churches.  The Catholic Church has a record of helping the poor and champions social causes around the world, aiding Catholics and non-Catholics alike.  Not once have I ever questioned anyone's salvation on this forum, as you have done many times.  I accept and embrace my Protestant brethren as fellow Christians.  While I wish that many non-Catholics within the faith could experience the "fullness of the faith" and joy that I have experienced as a Catholic, I do not dare question the salvation of anyone who claims to follow Christ.  While many differences exist between us, I would rather focus on the things that bind us rather than divides us.

Kensington, you might want to preserve what dignity and credibility you may have left.

: broach972  Thu Dec 18, 2008 - 08:11:32First, CD is not a Catholic. 

Well, not a Roman Catholic, but Catholic in the broader sense.

(Just quibbling! ::wink:: )

: CDHealy  Thu Dec 18, 2008 - 09:35:32

: broach972  Thu Dec 18, 2008 - 08:11:32First, CD is not a Catholic. 

Well, not a Roman Catholic, but Catholic in the broader sense.

(Just quibbling! ::wink:: )

::smile::

: nhim  Fri Dec 12, 2008 - 17:13:42

I am not Catholic but I do attend mass occasionally. I am a Christian. My question is would you be offended if I took the Lord's Supper during mass?

Thanks,
nhim

The best answer to your question is at this link:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Who_Can_Receive_Communion.asp
I hope you find it helpful.

Broach and CD... stop your whinning... and excuse making.. Are believers who are saved by grace through the blood of Jesus Christ, part of the Body of Christ or not. 

Get to the point. 

I've already stated it very clearly, Kensie ol' chum: Protestant believers are not, and cannot by definition be, members of the one visible Church.

It doesn't mean they're not Christians, though they may not be, but it does mean they're not part of Christ's Body.

Yes, this is a strange scenario: that one can be a Christian and yet not part of Christ's visible Body, but the Protestants have a good bit of blame here, since they've divided their fellow Christians so many times over.  God's mercy has to extend in abnormal ways to cover these sins of schism.

Wow... you must just sit on top of this thread waiting for someone to post so that you may "POUNCE"...

It's nice to know what you are willing to falsely speak about other members of the body of Christ....   This is what makes your teachings and your dogmas of your religion so sad.  So very sad and filled with hypocrisy indeed. 

I can't believe how confused that you and those like you are content to be, and to use that false doctrine to try to "win" others.  It's just a crack up. 

I am glad to know though, my family... mostly in laws have invited me to come to at least Christmas things they are having at their church/mass this year.  I have every reason to decline to attend such nonsense at any time of someone who sits next to my redeemed body thinking I am not a member of the body of Christ.  I have no desire what so ever to be with Pharisees this Christmas season. 

I'll stick with the true body of Christ... those who know we are ALL saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone...   
Broach is right... I'll keep my dignity and attend with the body of Christ, those whom He died to redeem. 

Petrus,

Are you Catholic? Thanks for the link.

: nhim  Thu Dec 18, 2008 - 18:07:19
Petrus,

Are you Catholic? Thanks for the link.

Yes I am.
I have found that www.catholic.com has a wealth of information for intersted parties, once one learns how to navigate the site.

Not only are every magazine article from "This Rock" archived, but also tracts, and here is my favorite: Every episode of the Catholic Answers Live! radio broadcast for eleven years is archived in mp3 format, here: http://www.catholic.com/radio/calendar.php
Just pick a month and a year, download them..  ..whatever. Its fantastic.

Mark

Petrus,

so what's your vote? I can take or should not take communion when I am visiting a mass?
If I knew no one there, would it still be wrong in your opinion?

: nhim  Fri Dec 19, 2008 - 13:05:57
Petrus,

so what's your vote? I can take or should not take communion when I am visiting a mass?
If I knew no one there, would it still be wrong in your opinion?

Did you read the article? http://www.catholic.com/library/Who_Can_Receive_Communion.asp

Anyway, its not a matter of voting. Reception by non-Catholics is not permitted, unless by a special exception from the bishop. There are many deep theological reasons for this.

As a faithful Catholic, I believe in Catholic doctrine, so I could never "vote" on it, as it were. Truth isn't up to the highest bidder.

I would also add that if I went to visit a protestant church, or a synagouge, or somewhere else, I would respect their rules. We ask the same in return. I think that is a pretty fair request.

Now, on November 14, 1996, the National Conference of Catholic Bishops approved the following guidelines on the reception of Holy Communion. The guidelines seek to remind all those who may attend Catholic liturgies of the present discipline of the Church with regard to the sharing of Eucharistic Communion.

For Catholics
As Catholics, we fully participate in the celebration of the Eucharist when we receive Holy Communion. We are encouraged to receive Communion devoutly and frequently. In order to be properly disposed to receive Communion, participants should not be conscious of grave sin and normally should have fasted for one hour. A person who is conscious of grave sin is not to receive the Body and Blood of the Lord without prior sacramental confession except for a grave reason where there is no opportunity for confession. In this case, the person is to be mindful of the obligation to make an act of perfect contrition, including the intention of confessing as soon as possible (canon 916). A frequent reception of the Sacrament of Penance is encouraged for all.

For our fellow Christians
We welcome our fellow Christians to this celebration of the Eucharist as our brothers and sisters. We pray that our common baptism and the action of the Holy Spirit in this Eucharist will draw us closer to one another and begin to dispel the sad divisions which separate us. We pray that these will lessen and finally disappear, in keeping with Christ's prayer for us "that they may all be one" (Jn. 17:21).

Because Catholics believe that the celebration of the Eucharist is a sign of the reality of the oneness of faith, life, and worship, members of those churches with whom we are not yet fully united are ordinarily not admitted to Holy Communion. Eucharistic sharing in exceptional circumstances by other Christians requires permission according to the directives of the diocesan bishop and the provisions of canon law (canon 844 Section 4). Members of the Orthodox Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Polish National Catholic Church are urged to respect the discipline of their own Churches. According to Roman Catholic discipline, the Code of Canon Law does not object to the reception of Communion by Christians of these Churches (canon 844 Section 3).

For those not receiving Holy Communion
All who are not receiving Holy Communion are encouraged to express in their hearts a prayerful desire for unity with the Lord Jesus and with one another.

For non-Christians
We also welcome to this celebration those who do not share our faith in Jesus Christ. While we cannot admit them to Holy Communion, we ask them to offer their prayers for the peace and the unity of the human family.

Petrus,

I did read it. I was just wondering what your personal belief was. I don't agree with everything my church leaders believe....

So, it looks like the Catholics here would not want me taking communion. I'll have to pray more about it. I know Christ's will is number one.

: Tu Es Petrus  Fri Dec 19, 2008 - 13:49:04

: nhim  Fri Dec 19, 2008 - 13:05:57
Petrus,

so what's your vote? I can take or should not take communion when I am visiting a mass?
If I knew no one there, would it still be wrong in your opinion?

Did you read the article? http://www.catholic.com/library/Who_Can_Receive_Communion.asp

Anyway, its not a matter of voting. Reception by non-Catholics is not permitted, unless by a special exception from the bishop. There are many deep theological reasons for this.

As a faithful Catholic, I believe in Catholic doctrine, so I could never "vote" on it, as it were. Truth isn't up to the highest bidder.

I would also add that if I went to visit a protestant church, or a synagouge, or somewhere else, I would respect their rules. We ask the same in return. I think that is a pretty fair request.

Now, on November 14, 1996, the National Conference of Catholic Bishops approved the following guidelines on the reception of Holy Communion. The guidelines seek to remind all those who may attend Catholic liturgies of the present discipline of the Church with regard to the sharing of Eucharistic Communion.

For Catholics
As Catholics, we fully participate in the celebration of the Eucharist when we receive Holy Communion. We are encouraged to receive Communion devoutly and frequently. In order to be properly disposed to receive Communion, participants should not be conscious of grave sin and normally should have fasted for one hour. A person who is conscious of grave sin is not to receive the Body and Blood of the Lord without prior sacramental confession except for a grave reason where there is no opportunity for confession. In this case, the person is to be mindful of the obligation to make an act of perfect contrition, including the intention of confessing as soon as possible (canon 916). A frequent reception of the Sacrament of Penance is encouraged for all.

For our fellow Christians
We welcome our fellow Christians to this celebration of the Eucharist as our brothers and sisters. We pray that our common baptism and the action of the Holy Spirit in this Eucharist will draw us closer to one another and begin to dispel the sad divisions which separate us. We pray that these will lessen and finally disappear, in keeping with Christ's prayer for us "that they may all be one" (Jn. 17:21).

Because Catholics believe that the celebration of the Eucharist is a sign of the reality of the oneness of faith, life, and worship, members of those churches with whom we are not yet fully united are ordinarily not admitted to Holy Communion. Eucharistic sharing in exceptional circumstances by other Christians requires permission according to the directives of the diocesan bishop and the provisions of canon law (canon 844 Section 4). Members of the Orthodox Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Polish National Catholic Church are urged to respect the discipline of their own Churches. According to Roman Catholic discipline, the Code of Canon Law does not object to the reception of Communion by Christians of these Churches (canon 844 Section 3).

For those not receiving Holy Communion
All who are not receiving Holy Communion are encouraged to express in their hearts a prayerful desire for unity with the Lord Jesus and with one another.

For non-Christians
We also welcome to this celebration those who do not share our faith in Jesus Christ. While we cannot admit them to Holy Communion, we ask them to offer their prayers for the peace and the unity of the human family.

Thank you Tu Es Petrus.  I have been to mass a couple of times in the past couple of years (I was invited), but did not take communion.  I just observed and sang.

love,

Sopranette

: nhim  Fri Dec 19, 2008 - 14:56:09
Petrus,

I did read it. I was just wondering what your personal belief was. I don't agree with everything my church leaders believe....

So, it looks like the Catholics here would not want me taking communion. I'll have to pray more about it. I know Christ's will is number one.

I think it' really very simple and a matter of being respectful: if you were to visit a Roman Catholic mass, knowing now what you do about the RCC's beliefs regarding Communion, you would be violating one of the very basic principles of the Gospel (love your neighbor as yourself) if you went forward to partake of Communion.

Everyone's up in arms here about Catholics not allowing non-Catholics to take Communion in a Catholic mass.  But let's flip it the other way 'round: if  a Catholic attended a Protestant Church, and brought with her a statue of Mary, set it out up front next to the pulpit and knelt and prayed the Rosary, I doubt anyone on these boards would consider it very nice.  And yet, she's doing nothing more, and indeed something far less, than the proposition that a Protestant ought to barge in to the Catholic mass, march right up front and demand the elements.

We can talk the theology of it to death, and not convince one another one iota.  But it's really very much more simple than that: respect, love your neighbor as yourself.

So you're offended by the Catholic closed Communion.  It doesn't excuse barging in and taking Communion.

It would be rude for anyone to march up to the front anyway.  But Catholics are invited to participate if they want to with the rest of the congregation, at least at our church (can't speak for everyone here, obviously).

love,

Sopranette

: sopranette  Fri Dec 19, 2008 - 15:07:01
It would be rude for anyone to march up to the front anyway.  But Catholics are invited to participate if they want to with the rest of the congregation, at least at our church (can't speak for everyone here, obviously).

But that invitation is predicated on a far different understanding of the Lord's Supper.  Catholics, however, who know their Church teaching, would not go forward to participate.

But to your point about rudeness: EXACTLY!  The insistence on one's purported "right" to partake of Communion (won't find that in the Bible) is not of the Gospel, and in the context in which we've been speaking of it here, it's of the devil since it is not from love.

Healy,

I agree that we are not to offend our brother. But if I'm sitting in mass and truly believe that God wants me to participate,do you still believe it would be wrong to? If no one knew me, how could they be offended? If I knew someone there would be offended, I would not do it.

Also, about your example, praying alone up front is not something done in community,like the Lord's Supper. If someone in our church,marched up front and started praying (with or without Mary), it would be inappropriate at the least. It seems like two totally different things to me.

I do struggle with this "offending my brother versus doing what I believe God would have me do" thing in other areas. There are those in my heritage that are offended by clapping or almost any emotion shown, but if I believe a brother gets so caught up in worship and makes a noise or claps...do I have the right to tell him that he needs to bow his head and be silent because I'm offended? It just seems like that goes so against our freedom in Christ.

: nhim  Fri Dec 19, 2008 - 14:56:09
Petrus,

I did read it. I was just wondering what your personal belief was. I don't agree with everything my church leaders believe....

So, it looks like the Catholics here would not want me taking communion. I'll have to pray more about it. I know Christ's will is number one.

Well, what I'd REALLY like is for you to become Catholic AND receive communion with me, my brother.

But, consider this: When the priest places the host on our tongues, he says "Body of Christ", and we reply "Amen." Our "AMEN" is us saying, "Yes, that is the Body of Christ. I believe that this is no longer bread, but truly is the Body of Christ." Now, if you do not believe in this (Transubstantiation) then your "amen" would be an untruth. On the other hand, if you DO believe in transubstantiation, then become a Catholic and join us at the Father's table.

Of COURSE I want you to receive the Eucharist, but properly, when you are in full communion with us. I shall pray for that day to come

: nhim  Fri Dec 19, 2008 - 17:30:10I agree that we are not to offend our brother. But if I'm sitting in mass and truly believe that God wants me to participate,do you still believe it would be wrong to?

Yes.  Because you know what Catholics believe about the mass, you do not believe the same things, and you know that it would be offensive to them.  God would not lead you to sin against the law of love.

: nhim  Fri Dec 19, 2008 - 17:30:10If no one knew me, how could they be offended? If I knew someone there would be offended, I would not do it.

If you know that they would be offended, then you violate the law of love by going ahead, even if you were pretty sure know one would ever know.  It would be deceitful and dishonest.

We all pray for full communion with each other.

: sopranette  Fri Dec 19, 2008 - 15:02:34Thank you Tu Es Petrus.  I have been to mass a couple of times in the past couple of years (I was invited), but did not take communion.  I just observed and sang.

love, Sopranette

Thank you too. And that is great to hear. I have been to a Baptist service before - sort of observing. Very interesting

offending one another is pretty much standard practice.

Healy and Petru,

please see my addition to previous post.

: nhim  Fri Dec 19, 2008 - 17:30:10I do struggle with this "offending my brother versus doing what I believe God would have me do" thing in other areas. There are those in my heritage that are offended by clapping or almost any emotion shown, but if I believe a brother gets so caught up in worship and makes a noise or claps...do I have the right to tell him that he needs to bow his head and be silent because I'm offended? It just seems like that goes so against our freedom in Christ.

Freedom in Christ is not the "right" to "express" ourselves, or to do what we think God is leading us to do and the consequences be durned.  Freedom in Christ means we are free to serve others at the cost to ourselves.  The same Paul who says "for freedom we have been set free" is the same Paul who says do not use your freedom to offend your brother.  If I am free to eat meat, but my brother is not, I do not serve my brother by exercising my "right" in Christ to eat meat.

: nhim  Fri Dec 19, 2008 - 17:41:40
Healy and Petru,

please see my addition to previous post.

I read it. Let me ask you: If you are sitting in Catholic Masses on Sundays, and you are drawn toward the Blessed Sacrament (The Eucharist), then why don't you consider becoming Catholic? Perhaps there is more to this call from God then you are allowing yourself to receive.

I am not trying to proselytize, so don't get me wrong. But what you have said sounds very familiar to what I have heard protestant pastors who have become Catholic say: Attending mass, a longing for the Eucharist, a call from God....

My favorite authors are former protestant pastors, like Scott Hahn, Stephen K. Ray, and Tim Staples. Thats how I know these things.

: CDHealy  Fri Dec 19, 2008 - 17:33:10

: nhim  Fri Dec 19, 2008 - 17:30:10I agree that we are not to offend our brother. But if I'm sitting in mass and truly believe that God wants me to participate,do you still believe it would be wrong to?

Yes.  Because you know what Catholics believe about the mass, you do not believe the same things, and you know that it would be offensive to them.  God would not lead you to sin against the law of love.

: nhim  Fri Dec 19, 2008 - 17:30:10If no one knew me, how could they be offended? If I knew someone there would be offended, I would not do it.

If you know that they would be offended, then you violate the law of love by going ahead, even if you were pretty sure know one would ever know.  It would be deceitful and dishonest.

Aren't you breaking the Law of Love... "Love others as your self" by being offended if someone goes up to take communion.  Actually, you are breaking that Law to not offer it to them.  You are offended on behalf of "what you believe"... but yet claim they have offended you?  '
You choose to be offended.  You try to heap the sin of your choice on someone else. 

: Tu Es Petrus  Fri Dec 19, 2008 - 18:15:27

: nhim  Fri Dec 19, 2008 - 17:41:40
Healy and Petru,

please see my addition to previous post.

I read it. Let me ask you: If you are sitting in Catholic Masses on Sundays, and you are drawn toward the Blessed Sacrament (The Eucharist), then why don't you consider becoming Catholic? Perhaps there is more to this call from God then you are allowing yourself to receive.

I am not trying to proselytize, so don't get me wrong. But what you have said sounds very familiar to what I have heard protestant pastors who have become Catholic say: Attending mass, a longing for the Eucharist, a call from God....

My favorite authors are former protestant pastors, like Scott Hahn, Stephen K. Ray, and Tim Staples. Thats how I know these things.

Should we list now the former Catholics who denounced that religion? 

: kensington  Fri Dec 19, 2008 - 23:04:04
Should we list now the former Catholics who denounced that religion? 

No. That would be off topic. I was trying to respond to the other member, and his "call" he is hearing, and letting him know he is not alone.

You seem to be a very cruel and mean-spirited person the way that you post. I will pray that the Holy Spirit works in your life the way He has worked in mine, to teach you love of neighbor, and remind you that despite our differences, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ, each deserving the other's respect and charity, and that is what is most important of all.

Freedom in Christ is not the "right" to "express" ourselves, or to do what we think God is leading us to do and the consequences be durned.  Freedom in Christ means we are free to serve others at the cost to ourselves.  The same Paul who says "for freedom we have been set free" is the same Paul who says do not use your freedom to offend your brother.  If I am free to eat meat, but my brother is not, I do not serve my brother by exercising my "right" in Christ to eat meat.
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Healy,

I agree. I also believe that freedom in Christ is that we are no longer justified by a set of laws and regulations. Paul also stated "The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love". Do you believe we all have to express ourselves the same way? We all have to worship the same way?

Petrus,

I appreciate your concern. I'm sure we have a different view of the existence of all the different denominations. I see that they are only displeasing to God when when one brother starts judging and condemning another. Personally, I believe God enjoys different kinds of worship-as long as Christ is the focus. I see Him very much as a God of variety-just look at creation!

When I worship with my Episcopal friend or Methodist friend, I have the same desire to participate in the Lord's  Supper.

I come from a faith tradition that used to profess to be the "One True Church". I will never go back to that mindset. I believe it is an exclusive way of thinking and I believe Christ welcomes ALL who believe in him-even to his table.

: nhim  Sat Dec 20, 2008 - 11:08:57I also believe that freedom in Christ is that we are no longer justified by a set of laws and regulations.

Partaking of Communion among a community that you know has closed Communion has nothing to do with justifying oneself with a set of laws and regulations.  It's a matter of pastoral love (on the part of the community which has closed the Communion), and a matter of brotherly love (on the part of the Christian who refuses to scandalize or offend other brothers and sisters in Christ).

After all, what spiritual good will it do you to partake of Communion at the cost of lack of brotherly love and needless offense?  And furthermore, why is this all about you and not about the larger community of brothers and sisters?  If you do truly believe that all believers are part of the same Church, then why, for the sake of your own spiritual pleasure, would you violate the bonds of love and go against the teaching and practice of the community just because you think you're right and they're wrong?  And how could you think God would lead you to violate the bonds of peace and love?  "Why not rather suffer wrong?  Why not rather be defrauded?  But you yourselves wrong and defraud--even your own brothers!" (1 Corinthians 6:7-8)

: nhim  Sat Dec 20, 2008 - 11:08:57Paul also stated "The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love". Do you believe we all have to express ourselves the same way? We all have to worship the same way?

No, I don't.  And there are a lot of variations within the Roman Catholic and Orthodox forms of liturgy respectively.  But this has nothing to do with your violating the practices of a community of Christians to satisfy your own will.-

: nhim  Sat Dec 20, 2008 - 11:27:33
I come from a faith tradition that used to profess to be the "One True Church". I will never go back to that mindset.....

I agree totally. Although we probably disagree on what that Church is. But I do agree that sects & "denominations" are not pleasing to the Lord. Just remember: Sects and denominations really sprung up in the 16th century.

I will respect the wish of Cathoics and not share in the communion. I don't agree with the banning of those outside the Church, as this does not speak of brotherly love. I will respect it tho.

Thanks for everyone's input.

: nhim  Sat Dec 20, 2008 - 18:13:02...I don't agree with the banning of those outside the Church, as this does not speak of brotherly love....

Well, try to remember: We do want you to join us...   ....in FULL COMMUNION with us. Pray about that. Of course we love you; If we didn't, we wouldn't keep the door open.

Petrus,

I honestly do not feel the brotherly love by being banned from sharing Christ with other Christians.

But I do respect your choice to believe the way you do.