By now most people have heard about the plane crash in Clarence Center, NY.
Back some time ago I lived their, it's a very small town, but that is not why I write this.
This crash to me says, in less than 8 seconds your life can be taken away. My point is, the Bible says our life is like a vapor, one minute your here, the next minute you gone. I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering.
The point I'm trying to make is no matter what don't wait to make Jesus the Lord of your life, so when you leave this world in a moments notice, you have eternal life in Heaven with Jesus.
There were about 50 people on that plane. Statistically speaking, by your claims, only about 3 of them will NOT face an eternity of pain and suffering. Sorry, but I just can't get my head wrapped around that belief.
: OneLung Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 08:33:27
There were about 50 people on that plane. Statistically speaking, by your claims, only about 3 of them will NOT face an eternity of pain and suffering. Sorry, but I just can't get my head wrapped around that belief.
You're not alone. I've done some research on it, but you may find this (http://www.edwardfudge.com/JETS_final_end_wicked.pdf) to be a helpful, but brief, explanation of what appears to many to be a more accurate explanation of what happens to those who shuffle off this mortal coil outside the grace of Christ.
It is interesting to hear people say how great a being is who will keep the vast majority of souls in existence for the sole purpose of suffering the conscious, unending torments of damnation throughout all eternity while those few who do make it spend eternity singing songs about how wonderful he is.
: Bigdog Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 08:27:25
By now most people have heard about the plane crash in Clarence Center, NY.
Back some time ago I lived their, it's a very small town, but that is not why I write this.
This crash to me says, in less than 8 seconds your life can be taken away. My point is, the Bible says our life is like a vapor, one minute your here, the next minute you gone. I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering.
The point I'm trying to make is no matter what don't wait to make Jesus the Lord of your life, so when you leave this world in a moments notice, you have eternal life in Heaven with Jesus.
If this were true, then everyone who ever lived in the OT is doomed for pain and suffering. Sorry, I don't buy it !
: OneLung Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 08:33:27
There were about 50 people on that plane. Statistically speaking, by your claims, only about 3 of them will NOT face an eternity of pain and suffering. Sorry, but I just can't get my head wrapped around that belief.
I don't Know where you got your statistics but my point is don't wait until it's to late. What if one of those 3 was someone in your family.Perhaps you should read what Jesus said in Luke 15:4
: Mystery Man Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 09:19:42
: Bigdog Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 08:27:25
By now most people have heard about the plane crash in Clarence Center, NY.
Back some time ago I lived their, it's a very small town, but that is not why I write this.
This crash to me says, in less than 8 seconds your life can be taken away. My point is, the Bible says our life is like a vapor, one minute your here, the next minute you gone. I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering.
The point I'm trying to make is no matter what don't wait to make Jesus the Lord of your life, so when you leave this world in a moments notice, you have eternal life in Heaven with Jesus.
I guess you don't understand the OT very well. Maybe alittle more time in the Bible would help.
If this were true, then everyone who ever lived in the OT is doomed for pain and suffering. Sorry, I don't buy it !
: Bigdog Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 11:44:28
: OneLung Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 08:33:27
There were about 50 people on that plane. Statistically speaking, by your claims, only about 3 of them will NOT face an eternity of pain and suffering. Sorry, but I just can't get my head wrapped around that belief.
I don't Know where you got your statistics but my point is don't wait until it's to late. What if one of those 3 was someone in your family.Perhaps you should read what Jesus said in Luke 15:4
I don't believe for a New York minute that anyone is
damned because they don't subscribe to some fringe interpretation of scripture. Did you read the pdf that Nick posted?
: OneLung Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 11:56:51
: Bigdog Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 11:44:28
: OneLung Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 08:33:27
There were about 50 people on that plane. Statistically speaking, by your claims, only about 3 of them will NOT face an eternity of pain and suffering. Sorry, but I just can't get my head wrapped around that belief.
I don't Know where you got your statistics but my point is don't wait until it's to late. What if one of those 3 was someone in your family.Perhaps you should read what Jesus said in Luke 15:4
I don't believe for a New York minute that anyone is damned because they don't subscribe to some fringe interpretation of scripture. Did you read the pdf that Nick posted?
I always wanted to know how long a New York minute was ? Is it + or - a normal minute ?
: OneLung Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 11:56:51
: Bigdog Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 11:44:28
: OneLung Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 08:33:27
There were about 50 people on that plane. Statistically speaking, by your claims, only about 3 of them will NOT face an eternity of pain and suffering. Sorry, but I just can't get my head wrapped around that belief.
I don't Know where you got your statistics but my point is don't wait until it's to late. What if one of those 3 was someone in your family.Perhaps you should read what Jesus said in Luke 15:4
I don't believe for a New York minute that anyone is damned because they don't subscribe to some fringe interpretation of scripture. Did you read the pdf that Nick posted?
Right now I really don't care what anyone said.
: Bigdog Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 11:47:55
: Mystery Man Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 09:19:42
: Bigdog Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 08:27:25
By now most people have heard about the plane crash in Clarence Center, NY.
Back some time ago I lived their, it's a very small town, but that is not why I write this.
This crash to me says, in less than 8 seconds your life can be taken away. My point is, the Bible says our life is like a vapor, one minute your here, the next minute you gone. I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering.
The point I'm trying to make is no matter what don't wait to make Jesus the Lord of your life, so when you leave this world in a moments notice, you have eternal life in Heaven with Jesus.
I guess you don't understand the OT very well. Maybe alittle more time in the Bible would help.
If this were true, then everyone who ever lived in the OT is doomed for pain and suffering. Sorry, I don't buy it !
You know, I hear people tell me that all the time. Do you think the reason I do not listen to people like you, is because I am deaf ? ::doh:: ::cryingtears::
: Bigdog Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 12:33:57
: OneLung Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 11:56:51
: Bigdog Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 11:44:28
: OneLung Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 08:33:27
There were about 50 people on that plane. Statistically speaking, by your claims, only about 3 of them will NOT face an eternity of pain and suffering. Sorry, but I just can't get my head wrapped around that belief.
I don't Know where you got your statistics but my point is don't wait until it's to late. What if one of those 3 was someone in your family.Perhaps you should read what Jesus said in Luke 15:4
I don't believe for a New York minute that anyone is damned because they don't subscribe to some fringe interpretation of scripture. Did you read the pdf that Nick posted?
Right now I really don't care what anyone said.
Well, some of us care what you say, especially over a tragedy such as this and the speculation that our loving, merciful and just heavenly Father keeps folks around just to see them suffer unspeakable agony throughout all eternity.
Remember Matthew 10:28: Stop being afraid of those who kill the body but can't kill the soul. Instead, be afraid of the one who can destroy both body and soul in hell.
: Bigdog Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 08:27:25
By now most people have heard about the plane crash in Clarence Center, NY.
Back some time ago I lived their, it's a very small town, but that is not why I write this.
This crash to me says, in less than 8 seconds your life can be taken away. My point is, the Bible says our life is like a vapor, one minute your here, the next minute you gone. I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering.
The point I'm trying to make is no matter what don't wait to make Jesus the Lord of your life, so when you leave this world in a moments notice, you have eternal life in Heaven with Jesus.
Amen! God will call and we will answer. ::tippinghat::
: Mystery Man Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 09:19:42
: Bigdog Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 08:27:25
By now most people have heard about the plane crash in Clarence Center, NY.
Back some time ago I lived their, it's a very small town, but that is not why I write this.
This crash to me says, in less than 8 seconds your life can be taken away. My point is, the Bible says our life is like a vapor, one minute your here, the next minute you gone. I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering.
The point I'm trying to make is no matter what don't wait to make Jesus the Lord of your life, so when you leave this world in a moments notice, you have eternal life in Heaven with Jesus.
If this were true, then everyone who ever lived in the OT is doomed for pain and suffering. Sorry, I don't buy it !
Why do you think that? They lived under a different covenant and shall be judged accordingly.
: Mere Nick Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 13:08:58
: Bigdog Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 12:33:57
: OneLung Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 11:56:51
: Bigdog Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 11:44:28
: OneLung Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 08:33:27
There were about 50 people on that plane. Statistically speaking, by your claims, only about 3 of them will NOT face an eternity of pain and suffering. Sorry, but I just can't get my head wrapped around that belief.
I don't Know where you got your statistics but my point is don't wait until it's to late. What if one of those 3 was someone in your family.Perhaps you should read what Jesus said in Luke 15:4
I don't believe for a New York minute that anyone is damned because they don't subscribe to some fringe interpretation of scripture. Did you read the pdf that Nick posted?
Right now I really don't care what anyone said.
Well, some of us care what you say, especially over a tragedy such as this and the speculation that our loving, merciful and just heavenly Father keeps folks around just to see them suffer unspeakable agony throughout all eternity.
Remember Matthew 10:28: Stop being afraid of those who kill the body but can't kill the soul. Instead, be afraid of the one who can destroy both body and soul in hell.
And the soul that sins shall die.
Whether we like it or not if we're not saved at the time of our death we are lost and doomed.
The man would not have suffered his house to be broken into... if he had known what hour the thief will come.
You see BigDog, if you hold out long enough there's always someone who will agree with you. :)
: OneLung Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 18:18:05
You see BigDog, if you hold out long enough there's always someone who will agree with you. :)
I wonder if the wait was worth it ? LOL
Thank the both of you guys. I'm always happy to be assoicated with a humble, God fearing man.
God bless ::clappingoverhead::
: Bonnie Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 18:03:29
: Mystery Man Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 09:19:42
: Bigdog Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 08:27:25
By now most people have heard about the plane crash in Clarence Center, NY.
Back some time ago I lived their, it's a very small town, but that is not why I write this.
This crash to me says, in less than 8 seconds your life can be taken away. My point is, the Bible says our life is like a vapor, one minute your here, the next minute you gone. I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering.
The point I'm trying to make is no matter what don't wait to make Jesus the Lord of your life, so when you leave this world in a moments notice, you have eternal life in Heaven with Jesus.
If this were true, then everyone who ever lived in the OT is doomed for pain and suffering. Sorry, I don't buy it !
Why do you think that? They lived under a different covenant and shall be judged accordingly.
Bonnie, God is a righteous judge. But what bigdog said is just wrong ! The Word tells us that many are called. The Word does not say "all" are called.
Bigdog judged , which is not his right to do. Let God judge who will and who will not end up in the second death.
: Mystery Man Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 18:38:20
Bigdog judged , which is not his right to do. Let God judge who will and who will not end up in the second death.
A problem with many humans, is "claiming authority" on a topic in scripture that is up for interpretation. I was raised into a "fiery hell" eternity concept...later in my years of study...I now believe the non-believers simply cease to exist. Flesh Death--->Throne Judgement--->Perma death. Yet I could be wrong, and am ok with that, as I have limited resources to find a conclusion.
: Mere Nick Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 08:53:21
: OneLung Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 08:33:27
There were about 50 people on that plane. Statistically speaking, by your claims, only about 3 of them will NOT face an eternity of pain and suffering. Sorry, but I just can't get my head wrapped around that belief.
You're not alone. I've done some research on it, but you may find this (http://www.edwardfudge.com/JETS_final_end_wicked.pdf) to be a helpful, but brief, explanation of what appears to many to be a more accurate explanation of what happens to those who shuffle off this mortal coil outside the grace of Christ.
It is interesting to hear people say how great a being is who will keep the vast majority of souls in existence for the sole purpose of suffering the conscious, unending torments of damnation throughout all eternity while those few who do make it spend eternity singing songs about how wonderful he is.
I reckon I'm gonna slap you five with that one...umm..hmm..
The "eternal punishment" is a punishment that is forever. Separation from God. The end of them...death.... a "thing of nought"....hell is.......annihilation. The antithesis of eternal life!
Good article...umm...hmm. ::tippinghat::
: Mystery Man Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 18:38:20
: Bonnie Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 18:03:29
: Mystery Man Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 09:19:42
: Bigdog Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 08:27:25
By now most people have heard about the plane crash in Clarence Center, NY.
Back some time ago I lived their, it's a very small town, but that is not why I write this.
This crash to me says, in less than 8 seconds your life can be taken away. My point is, the Bible says our life is like a vapor, one minute your here, the next minute you gone. I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering.
The point I'm trying to make is no matter what don't wait to make Jesus the Lord of your life, so when you leave this world in a moments notice, you have eternal life in Heaven with Jesus.
If this were true, then everyone who ever lived in the OT is doomed for pain and suffering. Sorry, I don't buy it !
Why do you think that? They lived under a different covenant and shall be judged accordingly.
Bonnie, God is a righteous judge. But what bigdog said is just wrong ! The Word tells us that many are called. The Word does not say "all" are called.
Bigdog judged , which is not his right to do. Let God judge who will and who will not end up in the second death.
I don't see anything wrong with Rob's post. All he's saying is that it's of the upmost importance to be ready when God calls you out of this life.
How can anyone condemn that?
We don't know if they were all saved people on that plane or not but God does. The point is to be ready, for in such an hour as you think not the Son of Man is coming.
Bonnie:
This is what Bigdog said >
" I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering."
Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice" -- Those who hear his voice - "know Jesus"
: Bonnie Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 19:03:08
: Mystery Man Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 18:38:20
: Bonnie Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 18:03:29
: Mystery Man Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 09:19:42
: Bigdog Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 08:27:25
By now most people have heard about the plane crash in Clarence Center, NY.
Back some time ago I lived their, it's a very small town, but that is not why I write this.
This crash to me says, in less than 8 seconds your life can be taken away. My point is, the Bible says our life is like a vapor, one minute your here, the next minute you gone. I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering.
The point I'm trying to make is no matter what don't wait to make Jesus the Lord of your life, so when you leave this world in a moments notice, you have eternal life in Heaven with Jesus.
If this were true, then everyone who ever lived in the OT is doomed for pain and suffering. Sorry, I don't buy it !
Why do you think that? They lived under a different covenant and shall be judged accordingly.
Bonnie, God is a righteous judge. But what bigdog said is just wrong ! The Word tells us that many are called. The Word does not say "all" are called.
Bigdog judged , which is not his right to do. Let God judge who will and who will not end up in the second death.
I don't see anything wrong with Rob's post. All he's saying is that it's of the upmost importance to be ready when God calls you out of this life.
How can anyone condemn that?
We don't know if they were all saved people on that plane or not but God does. The point is to be ready, for in such an hour as you think not the Son of Man is coming.
It's the "eternity of pain and suffering" bit. OneLung said he couldn't get his head around that one. I showed him that he is not alone. Only in Christ is there eternal life.
: Mystery Man Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 19:08:10
Bonnie:
This is what Bigdog said >
" I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering."
Yes... and what he said is true. I too feel sadness for those who went to their eternity without Jesus. We don't know why ... some could have heard the gospel and rejected it. Some could have thought their "religion" was protection from Hell. Some but the truth is "ALL" will be asked if they "know" Jesus and not everyone who lives and dies will be able to say yes.
I would love to hear someone say that "EVERYONE" on that plane knew Jesus... but that is not realistic.
Bigdog didn't judge anyone. He spoke the Judgment of God that is already set forth for eternity in the WORD of God. GOD says that there will be those who do not know him and who will spend eternity in Hell. If it weren't true... there would have been no need for Calvary... for we all could have just gone to Heaven, regardless of being forgiven or not.
We know this much... however long it took for that plane to go down... (someone said 8 second)... that is how long they had to repent of their sins if they hadn't yet. That is the bottom line. 8 seconds is plenty of time.
Sorry I will believe the Bible over some pdf.
I agree with the OP.
: kensington Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 00:58:00
: Mystery Man Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 19:08:10
Bonnie:
This is what Bigdog said >
" I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering."
Yes... and what he said is true. I too feel sadness for those who went to their eternity without Jesus. We don't know why ... some could have heard the gospel and rejected it. Some could have thought their "religion" was protection from Hell. Some but the truth is "ALL" will be asked if they "know" Jesus and not everyone who lives and dies will be able to say yes.
I would love to hear someone say that "EVERYONE" on that plane knew Jesus... but that is not realistic.
Bigdog didn't judge anyone. He spoke the Judgment of God that is already set forth for eternity in the WORD of God. GOD says that there will be those who do not know him and who will spend eternity in Hell. If it weren't true... there would have been no need for Calvary... for we all could have just gone to Heaven, regardless of being forgiven or not.
We know this much... however long it took for that plane to go down... (someone said 8 second)... that is how long they had to repent of their sins if they hadn't yet. That is the bottom line. 8 seconds is plenty of time.
It is not intent to argue over this issue. But I would like to share my view. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
Some are called and some are not. The Word tells us that many are called but few are chosen. Even the many are not "all". Even though they were not called, does not mean they are going to the lake of fire to suffer forever .
There were many in the OT that never knew, nor even heard that there was going to be a saviour. Are they all doomed to eternal suffering ? I would say - No !
Indeed some will, that is why the Word tells us of those whoes names are not in the book of life are headed to the eternal death. But the question is, how or why are their names not in the book of life ?
If their name is not in the book of life, it is because they committed an unforgivable sin. God is the one who takes their names out of the book of life.
Knowing or not knowing Jesus is not the criteria for one's name being taken out of the book of life.
Unforgivable sin is the critera.
Even those whom are not his sheep can receive eternal life in paradise , because of the love of God . That God sent his Son to save the world, not just those who are called to know Jesus. Jesus said that my sheep hear my voice. We are called for a purpose. So that the world might know him , and follow righteousness by our example.
God is no respector of persons. So those whom God has not called, does not in any way mean that they are headed to a life of tourture and pain and suffering. They have to commit an unforgivable sin before that would happen.
The Word tells us that Jesus is not only the saviour of the body of Christ, but the saviour of the world. Those who lived in the OT, as well as those who live now and in the future. This is the Love of God, that yet when we were still sinners. He sent his son to die for the sins of the world.
Sin is unrighteousness, and unrighteousness is living in death. But God loved us so much that while we were yet in our sins, we were given eternal life because of what he accomplished on the cross and his resurrection.
We who have been called and chosen know Jesus. But not "all" have been called. Only many.
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 05:40:21
: kensington Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 00:58:00
: Mystery Man Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 19:08:10
Bonnie:
This is what Bigdog said >
" I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering."
Yes... and what he said is true. I too feel sadness for those who went to their eternity without Jesus. We don't know why ... some could have heard the gospel and rejected it. Some could have thought their "religion" was protection from Hell. Some but the truth is "ALL" will be asked if they "know" Jesus and not everyone who lives and dies will be able to say yes.
I would love to hear someone say that "EVERYONE" on that plane knew Jesus... but that is not realistic.
Bigdog didn't judge anyone. He spoke the Judgment of God that is already set forth for eternity in the WORD of God. GOD says that there will be those who do not know him and who will spend eternity in Hell. If it weren't true... there would have been no need for Calvary... for we all could have just gone to Heaven, regardless of being forgiven or not.
We know this much... however long it took for that plane to go down... (someone said 8 second)... that is how long they had to repent of their sins if they hadn't yet. That is the bottom line. 8 seconds is plenty of time.
It is not intent to argue over this issue. But I would like to share my view. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
Some are called and some are not. The Word tells us that many are called but few are chosen. Even the many are not "all". Even though they were not called, does not mean they are going to the lake of fire to suffer forever .
There were many in the OT that never knew, nor even heard that there was going to be a saviour. Are they all doomed to eternal suffering ? I would say - No !
Indeed some will, that is why the Word tells us of those whoes names are not in the book of life are headed to the eternal death. But the question is, how or why are their names not in the book of life ?
If their name is not in the book of life, it is because they committed an unforgivable sin. God is the one who takes their names out of the book of life.
Knowing or not knowing Jesus is not the criteria for one's name being taken out of the book of life.
Unforgivable sin is the critera.
Even those whom are not his sheep can receive eternal life in paradise , because of the love of God . That God sent his Son to save the world, not just those who are called to know Jesus. Jesus said that my sheep hear my voice. We are called for a purpose. So that the world might know him , and follow righteousness by our example.
God is no respector of persons. So those whom God has not called, does not in any way mean that they are headed to a life of tourture and pain and suffering. They have to commit an unforgivable sin before that would happen.
The Word tells us that Jesus is not only the saviour of the body of Christ, but the saviour of the world. Those who lived in the OT, as well as those who live now and in the future. This is the Love of God, that yet when we were still sinners. He sent his son to die for the sins of the world.
Sin is unrighteousness, and unrighteousness is living in death. But God loved us so much that while we were yet in our sins, we were given eternal life because of what he accomplished on the cross and his resurrection.
We who have been called and chosen know Jesus. But not "all" have been called. Only many.
No, just because someone has heard of the name Jesus, doesn't make that person automatically saved. It is the belief in Jesus as the only begotten Son. No one comes to the Father except through Jesus, His Son. Where on earth did you get that from? Not even everybody who calls out "Father, Father" will be saved, but some will hear His answer, "I never knew you.". There is also no such thing as an "unforgiveable sin", and one can repent and be saved as long as one is still drawing breath. When one repents and accepts Jesus as his Lord and Saviour, that person's sin are covered in His blood. And Bonnie is right; the people in the OT were under a different covenant, and those who called on the Father were saved then.
love,
Sopranette
: sopranette Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 05:47:13
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 05:40:21
: kensington Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 00:58:00
: Mystery Man Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 19:08:10
Bonnie:
This is what Bigdog said >
" I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering."
Yes... and what he said is true. I too feel sadness for those who went to their eternity without Jesus. We don't know why ... some could have heard the gospel and rejected it. Some could have thought their "religion" was protection from Hell. Some but the truth is "ALL" will be asked if they "know" Jesus and not everyone who lives and dies will be able to say yes.
I would love to hear someone say that "EVERYONE" on that plane knew Jesus... but that is not realistic.
Bigdog didn't judge anyone. He spoke the Judgment of God that is already set forth for eternity in the WORD of God. GOD says that there will be those who do not know him and who will spend eternity in Hell. If it weren't true... there would have been no need for Calvary... for we all could have just gone to Heaven, regardless of being forgiven or not.
We know this much... however long it took for that plane to go down... (someone said 8 second)... that is how long they had to repent of their sins if they hadn't yet. That is the bottom line. 8 seconds is plenty of time.
It is not intent to argue over this issue. But I would like to share my view. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
Some are called and some are not. The Word tells us that many are called but few are chosen. Even the many are not "all". Even though they were not called, does not mean they are going to the lake of fire to suffer forever .
There were many in the OT that never knew, nor even heard that there was going to be a saviour. Are they all doomed to eternal suffering ? I would say - No !
Indeed some will, that is why the Word tells us of those whoes names are not in the book of life are headed to the eternal death. But the question is, how or why are their names not in the book of life ?
If their name is not in the book of life, it is because they committed an unforgivable sin. God is the one who takes their names out of the book of life.
Knowing or not knowing Jesus is not the criteria for one's name being taken out of the book of life.
Unforgivable sin is the critera.
Even those whom are not his sheep can receive eternal life in paradise , because of the love of God . That God sent his Son to save the world, not just those who are called to know Jesus. Jesus said that my sheep hear my voice. We are called for a purpose. So that the world might know him , and follow righteousness by our example.
God is no respector of persons. So those whom God has not called, does not in any way mean that they are headed to a life of tourture and pain and suffering. They have to commit an unforgivable sin before that would happen.
The Word tells us that Jesus is not only the saviour of the body of Christ, but the saviour of the world. Those who lived in the OT, as well as those who live now and in the future. This is the Love of God, that yet when we were still sinners. He sent his son to die for the sins of the world.
Sin is unrighteousness, and unrighteousness is living in death. But God loved us so much that while we were yet in our sins, we were given eternal life because of what he accomplished on the cross and his resurrection.
We who have been called and chosen know Jesus. But not "all" have been called. Only many.
No, just because someone has heard of the name Jesus, doesn't make that person automatically saved. It is the belief in Jesus as the only begotten Son. Where on earth did you get that from? Not even everybody who calls out "Father, Father" will be saved, but some will hear His answer, "I never knew you.". There is also no such thing as an "unforgiveable sin", and one can repent and be saved as long as one is still drawing breath. And Bonnie is right; the people in the OT were under a different covenant, and those who called on the Father were saved then.
love,
Sopranette
Jesus said - "My Sheep" hear my voice. He also said that no one would pluck any of his sheep away from him.
This is not about someone hearing you or I talk about Jesus. This is about those who know Jesus because they are his sheep.
The standard for going to eternal punishment is to commit an unforgivable sin. All of us sin. And Jesus didn't just die for you and I, but the whole world. All the sins of the world. The only sins not covered are those who commit an unforgivable sin. Murder is one of the unforgivable sins.
The standard is not in just knowing him ! And only God can take one's name out of the book of life.
Remember, we are dealing with the OP words here. Not a long conversation about generalities.
To know Jesus is because you are one of his Sheep. If you are not one of his sheep, it does not mean that you are going to be in eternal punishment and pain and suffering. This is the standard by which the OP used . And it is wrong to even suggest that those who do not know Jesus are headed for eternal punishment and pain and suffering. You and I have no idea as to why or whom God has called. God wants all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. But not all will. And that is not because they are evil people. It is because they were not called.
Murder is not an unforgivable sin. If it were, both King David and the Apostle Paul would be separate from God forever. We know that is not the case. God forgave them both. Whether an eternity separated from God involves an eternity of pain and suffering is debateable, and has been debated here a few times. I'm leaning towards no eternity in pain, myself, but I don't know for sure.
love,
sopranette
Sin unto death -- I John 5:16
Sin unto death is an unforgivable sin.
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 05:40:21
: kensington Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 00:58:00
: Mystery Man Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 19:08:10
Bonnie:
This is what Bigdog said >
" I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering."
Yes... and what he said is true. I too feel sadness for those who went to their eternity without Jesus. We don't know why ... some could have heard the gospel and rejected it. Some could have thought their "religion" was protection from Hell. Some but the truth is "ALL" will be asked if they "know" Jesus and not everyone who lives and dies will be able to say yes.
I would love to hear someone say that "EVERYONE" on that plane knew Jesus... but that is not realistic.
Bigdog didn't judge anyone. He spoke the Judgment of God that is already set forth for eternity in the WORD of God. GOD says that there will be those who do not know him and who will spend eternity in Hell. If it weren't true... there would have been no need for Calvary... for we all could have just gone to Heaven, regardless of being forgiven or not.
We know this much... however long it took for that plane to go down... (someone said 8 second)... that is how long they had to repent of their sins if they hadn't yet. That is the bottom line. 8 seconds is plenty of time.
It is not intent to argue over this issue. But I would like to share my view. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
Some are called and some are not. The Word tells us that many are called but few are chosen. Even the many are not "all". Even though they were not called, does not mean they are going to the lake of fire to suffer forever .
There were many in the OT that never knew, nor even heard that there was going to be a saviour. Are they all doomed to eternal suffering ? I would say - No !
Indeed some will, that is why the Word tells us of those whoes names are not in the book of life are headed to the eternal death. But the question is, how or why are their names not in the book of life ?
If their name is not in the book of life, it is because they committed an unforgivable sin. God is the one who takes their names out of the book of life.
Knowing or not knowing Jesus is not the criteria for one's name being taken out of the book of life.
Unforgivable sin is the critera.
Even those whom are not his sheep can receive eternal life in paradise , because of the love of God . That God sent his Son to save the world, not just those who are called to know Jesus. Jesus said that my sheep hear my voice. We are called for a purpose. So that the world might know him , and follow righteousness by our example.
God is no respector of persons. So those whom God has not called, does not in any way mean that they are headed to a life of tourture and pain and suffering. They have to commit an unforgivable sin before that would happen.
The Word tells us that Jesus is not only the saviour of the body of Christ, but the saviour of the world. Those who lived in the OT, as well as those who live now and in the future. This is the Love of God, that yet when we were still sinners. He sent his son to die for the sins of the world.
Sin is unrighteousness, and unrighteousness is living in death. But God loved us so much that while we were yet in our sins, we were given eternal life because of what he accomplished on the cross and his resurrection.
We who have been called and chosen know Jesus. But not "all" have been called. Only many.
The people in the OT will be judged according to the covenant they had with God. Now that Christ has come there is no other way to the sheep's fold but through him.
Christ didn't save us in our sins, he saved us from them ... when we were willing to repent. Consider the verses below -
Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people [unto him] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
No murderer hath any eternal life abiding in them - I John 3:15 ::frown::
: Bonnie Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 06:13:33
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 05:40:21
: kensington Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 00:58:00
: Mystery Man Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 19:08:10
Bonnie:
This is what Bigdog said >
" I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering."
Yes... and what he said is true. I too feel sadness for those who went to their eternity without Jesus. We don't know why ... some could have heard the gospel and rejected it. Some could have thought their "religion" was protection from Hell. Some but the truth is "ALL" will be asked if they "know" Jesus and not everyone who lives and dies will be able to say yes.
I would love to hear someone say that "EVERYONE" on that plane knew Jesus... but that is not realistic.
Bigdog didn't judge anyone. He spoke the Judgment of God that is already set forth for eternity in the WORD of God. GOD says that there will be those who do not know him and who will spend eternity in Hell. If it weren't true... there would have been no need for Calvary... for we all could have just gone to Heaven, regardless of being forgiven or not.
We know this much... however long it took for that plane to go down... (someone said 8 second)... that is how long they had to repent of their sins if they hadn't yet. That is the bottom line. 8 seconds is plenty of time.
It is not intent to argue over this issue. But I would like to share my view. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
Some are called and some are not. The Word tells us that many are called but few are chosen. Even the many are not "all". Even though they were not called, does not mean they are going to the lake of fire to suffer forever .
There were many in the OT that never knew, nor even heard that there was going to be a saviour. Are they all doomed to eternal suffering ? I would say - No !
Indeed some will, that is why the Word tells us of those whoes names are not in the book of life are headed to the eternal death. But the question is, how or why are their names not in the book of life ?
If their name is not in the book of life, it is because they committed an unforgivable sin. God is the one who takes their names out of the book of life.
Knowing or not knowing Jesus is not the criteria for one's name being taken out of the book of life.
Unforgivable sin is the critera.
Even those whom are not his sheep can receive eternal life in paradise , because of the love of God . That God sent his Son to save the world, not just those who are called to know Jesus. Jesus said that my sheep hear my voice. We are called for a purpose. So that the world might know him , and follow righteousness by our example.
God is no respector of persons. So those whom God has not called, does not in any way mean that they are headed to a life of tourture and pain and suffering. They have to commit an unforgivable sin before that would happen.
The Word tells us that Jesus is not only the saviour of the body of Christ, but the saviour of the world. Those who lived in the OT, as well as those who live now and in the future. This is the Love of God, that yet when we were still sinners. He sent his son to die for the sins of the world.
Sin is unrighteousness, and unrighteousness is living in death. But God loved us so much that while we were yet in our sins, we were given eternal life because of what he accomplished on the cross and his resurrection.
We who have been called and chosen know Jesus. But not "all" have been called. Only many.
The people in the OT will be judged according to the covenant they had with God. Now that Christ has come there is no other way to the sheep's fold but through him.
Christ didn't save us in our sins, he saved us from them ... when we were willing to repent. Consider the verses below -
Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people [unto him] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Bonnie
Who was under the old covenant ? Israel - right ? But millions upon millions of people lived and died in the OT,and they were not under the old covenant , correct ? So what you are saying is that because they were not under the old covenant they are doomed ?
: sopranette Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 05:47:13
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 05:40:21
: kensington Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 00:58:00
: Mystery Man Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 19:08:10
Bonnie:
This is what Bigdog said >
" I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering."
Yes... and what he said is true. I too feel sadness for those who went to their eternity without Jesus. We don't know why ... some could have heard the gospel and rejected it. Some could have thought their "religion" was protection from Hell. Some but the truth is "ALL" will be asked if they "know" Jesus and not everyone who lives and dies will be able to say yes.
I would love to hear someone say that "EVERYONE" on that plane knew Jesus... but that is not realistic.
Bigdog didn't judge anyone. He spoke the Judgment of God that is already set forth for eternity in the WORD of God. GOD says that there will be those who do not know him and who will spend eternity in Hell. If it weren't true... there would have been no need for Calvary... for we all could have just gone to Heaven, regardless of being forgiven or not.
We know this much... however long it took for that plane to go down... (someone said 8 second)... that is how long they had to repent of their sins if they hadn't yet. That is the bottom line. 8 seconds is plenty of time.
It is not intent to argue over this issue. But I would like to share my view. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
Some are called and some are not. The Word tells us that many are called but few are chosen. Even the many are not "all". Even though they were not called, does not mean they are going to the lake of fire to suffer forever .
There were many in the OT that never knew, nor even heard that there was going to be a saviour. Are they all doomed to eternal suffering ? I would say - No !
Indeed some will, that is why the Word tells us of those whoes names are not in the book of life are headed to the eternal death. But the question is, how or why are their names not in the book of life ?
If their name is not in the book of life, it is because they committed an unforgivable sin. God is the one who takes their names out of the book of life.
Knowing or not knowing Jesus is not the criteria for one's name being taken out of the book of life.
Unforgivable sin is the critera.
Even those whom are not his sheep can receive eternal life in paradise , because of the love of God . That God sent his Son to save the world, not just those who are called to know Jesus. Jesus said that my sheep hear my voice. We are called for a purpose. So that the world might know him , and follow righteousness by our example.
God is no respector of persons. So those whom God has not called, does not in any way mean that they are headed to a life of tourture and pain and suffering. They have to commit an unforgivable sin before that would happen.
The Word tells us that Jesus is not only the saviour of the body of Christ, but the saviour of the world. Those who lived in the OT, as well as those who live now and in the future. This is the Love of God, that yet when we were still sinners. He sent his son to die for the sins of the world.
Sin is unrighteousness, and unrighteousness is living in death. But God loved us so much that while we were yet in our sins, we were given eternal life because of what he accomplished on the cross and his resurrection.
We who have been called and chosen know Jesus. But not "all" have been called. Only many.
No, just because someone has heard of the name Jesus, doesn't make that person automatically saved. It is the belief in Jesus as the only begotten Son. No one comes to the Father except through Jesus, His Son. Where on earth did you get that from? Not even everybody who calls out "Father, Father" will be saved, but some will hear His answer, "I never knew you.". There is also no such thing as an "unforgiveable sin", and one can repent and be saved as long as one is still drawing breath. When one repents and accepts Jesus as his Lord and Saviour, that person's sin are covered in His blood. And Bonnie is right; the people in the OT were under a different covenant, and those who called on the Father were saved then.
love,
Sopranette
Amen!
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 06:16:05
: Bonnie Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 06:13:33
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 05:40:21
: kensington Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 00:58:00
: Mystery Man Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 19:08:10
Bonnie:
This is what Bigdog said >
" I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering."
Yes... and what he said is true. I too feel sadness for those who went to their eternity without Jesus. We don't know why ... some could have heard the gospel and rejected it. Some could have thought their "religion" was protection from Hell. Some but the truth is "ALL" will be asked if they "know" Jesus and not everyone who lives and dies will be able to say yes.
I would love to hear someone say that "EVERYONE" on that plane knew Jesus... but that is not realistic.
Bigdog didn't judge anyone. He spoke the Judgment of God that is already set forth for eternity in the WORD of God. GOD says that there will be those who do not know him and who will spend eternity in Hell. If it weren't true... there would have been no need for Calvary... for we all could have just gone to Heaven, regardless of being forgiven or not.
We know this much... however long it took for that plane to go down... (someone said 8 second)... that is how long they had to repent of their sins if they hadn't yet. That is the bottom line. 8 seconds is plenty of time.
It is not intent to argue over this issue. But I would like to share my view. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
Some are called and some are not. The Word tells us that many are called but few are chosen. Even the many are not "all". Even though they were not called, does not mean they are going to the lake of fire to suffer forever .
There were many in the OT that never knew, nor even heard that there was going to be a saviour. Are they all doomed to eternal suffering ? I would say - No !
Indeed some will, that is why the Word tells us of those whoes names are not in the book of life are headed to the eternal death. But the question is, how or why are their names not in the book of life ?
If their name is not in the book of life, it is because they committed an unforgivable sin. God is the one who takes their names out of the book of life.
Knowing or not knowing Jesus is not the criteria for one's name being taken out of the book of life.
Unforgivable sin is the critera.
Even those whom are not his sheep can receive eternal life in paradise , because of the love of God . That God sent his Son to save the world, not just those who are called to know Jesus. Jesus said that my sheep hear my voice. We are called for a purpose. So that the world might know him , and follow righteousness by our example.
God is no respector of persons. So those whom God has not called, does not in any way mean that they are headed to a life of tourture and pain and suffering. They have to commit an unforgivable sin before that would happen.
The Word tells us that Jesus is not only the saviour of the body of Christ, but the saviour of the world. Those who lived in the OT, as well as those who live now and in the future. This is the Love of God, that yet when we were still sinners. He sent his son to die for the sins of the world.
Sin is unrighteousness, and unrighteousness is living in death. But God loved us so much that while we were yet in our sins, we were given eternal life because of what he accomplished on the cross and his resurrection.
We who have been called and chosen know Jesus. But not "all" have been called. Only many.
The people in the OT will be judged according to the covenant they had with God. Now that Christ has come there is no other way to the sheep's fold but through him.
Christ didn't save us in our sins, he saved us from them ... when we were willing to repent. Consider the verses below -
Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people [unto him] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Bonnie
Who was under the old covenant ? Israel - right ? But millions upon millions of people lived and died in the OT,and they were not under the old covenant , correct ? So what you are saying is that because they were not under the old covenant they are doomed ?
Israel was God's chosen people but not all of them were saved due to rebellion.
They did as God told them to, wiping out the enemy's of God. I cannot say more.
When someone rejects Jesus and does not repent, that is a sin so terrible, it will put a person in a position so acutely painful spiritually, it is as close to death in it's suffering. It is not one sin, but a lifetime of rejecting God's Word. The verse does not say there are sins that cause death, but that that person is facing an eternity separated from God. "Unto death" is a way of saying someone is deathly ill, but not actually dead. That particular passage says we are to make an intercessory prayer for that brother.
love,
sopranette
: Bonnie Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 06:24:06
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 06:16:05
: Bonnie Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 06:13:33
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 05:40:21
: kensington Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 00:58:00
: Mystery Man Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 19:08:10
Bonnie:
This is what Bigdog said >
" I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering."
Yes... and what he said is true. I too feel sadness for those who went to their eternity without Jesus. We don't know why ... some could have heard the gospel and rejected it. Some could have thought their "religion" was protection from Hell. Some but the truth is "ALL" will be asked if they "know" Jesus and not everyone who lives and dies will be able to say yes.
I would love to hear someone say that "EVERYONE" on that plane knew Jesus... but that is not realistic.
Bigdog didn't judge anyone. He spoke the Judgment of God that is already set forth for eternity in the WORD of God. GOD says that there will be those who do not know him and who will spend eternity in Hell. If it weren't true... there would have been no need for Calvary... for we all could have just gone to Heaven, regardless of being forgiven or not.
We know this much... however long it took for that plane to go down... (someone said 8 second)... that is how long they had to repent of their sins if they hadn't yet. That is the bottom line. 8 seconds is plenty of time.
It is not intent to argue over this issue. But I would like to share my view. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
Some are called and some are not. The Word tells us that many are called but few are chosen. Even the many are not "all". Even though they were not called, does not mean they are going to the lake of fire to suffer forever .
There were many in the OT that never knew, nor even heard that there was going to be a saviour. Are they all doomed to eternal suffering ? I would say - No !
Indeed some will, that is why the Word tells us of those whoes names are not in the book of life are headed to the eternal death. But the question is, how or why are their names not in the book of life ?
If their name is not in the book of life, it is because they committed an unforgivable sin. God is the one who takes their names out of the book of life.
Knowing or not knowing Jesus is not the criteria for one's name being taken out of the book of life.
Unforgivable sin is the critera.
Even those whom are not his sheep can receive eternal life in paradise , because of the love of God . That God sent his Son to save the world, not just those who are called to know Jesus. Jesus said that my sheep hear my voice. We are called for a purpose. So that the world might know him , and follow righteousness by our example.
God is no respector of persons. So those whom God has not called, does not in any way mean that they are headed to a life of tourture and pain and suffering. They have to commit an unforgivable sin before that would happen.
The Word tells us that Jesus is not only the saviour of the body of Christ, but the saviour of the world. Those who lived in the OT, as well as those who live now and in the future. This is the Love of God, that yet when we were still sinners. He sent his son to die for the sins of the world.
Sin is unrighteousness, and unrighteousness is living in death. But God loved us so much that while we were yet in our sins, we were given eternal life because of what he accomplished on the cross and his resurrection.
We who have been called and chosen know Jesus. But not "all" have been called. Only many.
The people in the OT will be judged according to the covenant they had with God. Now that Christ has come there is no other way to the sheep's fold but through him.
Christ didn't save us in our sins, he saved us from them ... when we were willing to repent. Consider the verses below -
Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people [unto him] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Bonnie
Who was under the old covenant ? Israel - right ? But millions upon millions of people lived and died in the OT,and they were not under the old covenant , correct ? So what you are saying is that because they were not under the old covenant they are doomed ?
Israel was God's chosen people but not all of them were saved due to rebellion.
They did as God told them to, wiping out the enemy's of God. I cannot say more.
Bonnie
Not everyone in the OT was the enemy of God, if they were not of the nation of Israel.
God even took some of Israel's names out of the book of life. And they were under the old covenant. Once someone's name is taken out of the book of life, there is only one destination, and it is not eternal life, but eternal death in the second death.
: sopranette Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 06:24:50
When someone rejects Jesus and does not repent, that is a sin so terrible, it will put a person in a position so acutely painful spiritually, it is as close to death in it's suffering. It is not one sin, but a lifetime of rejecting God's Word. The verse does not say there are sins that cause death, but that that person is facing an eternity separated from God. "Unto death" is a way of saying someone is deathly ill, but not actually dead. That particular passage says we are to make an intercessory prayer for that brother.
love,
sopranette
I John 3:15 says you can not pray for them
if you die as a non Christian then you are not going to heaven. Jesus is the only way to the Father, surely the Bible is clear on that. Those who lived after Jesus came have no other way of being saved.
If many roads lead to heaven then Jesus lied. This is why we can never put off turning to Jesus becuase we can never know when we are going to die, and then it is to late. There are many who go along the wide path that leads to destruction and few who go along the narrow path that leads to life, sadly.
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 06:13:45
No murderer hath any eternal life abiding in them - I John 3:15 ::frown::
Once again, this is a verse that is talking about unbelievers. Read a little before that line.
Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hates you. I John 3:13
He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. 3:14
Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer (an unbeliever who hates God's children in this case) hath eternal life abiding in him.
We already know those who reject Jesus are going to spend eternity separated from God, so we already know those who reject God and His Word do not have eternal life abiding in them.
love,
sopranette
It sounds like there may be some sort of "Grandfather" clause for people who lived before Jesus' time.
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 06:34:02
: sopranette Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 06:24:50
When someone rejects Jesus and does not repent, that is a sin so terrible, it will put a person in a position so acutely painful spiritually, it is as close to death in it's suffering. It is not one sin, but a lifetime of rejecting God's Word. The verse does not say there are sins that cause death, but that that person is facing an eternity separated from God. "Unto death" is a way of saying someone is deathly ill, but not actually dead. That particular passage says we are to make an intercessory prayer for that brother.
love,
sopranette
I John 3:15 says you can not pray for them
No, it doesn't.
love,
Sopranette
: OneLung Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 06:40:33
It sounds like there may be some sort of "Grandfather" clause for people who lived before Jesus' time.
Not quite. The Word was not made flesh yet.
love,
Sopranette
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 06:32:42
: Bonnie Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 06:24:06
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 06:16:05
: Bonnie Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 06:13:33
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 05:40:21
: kensington Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 00:58:00
: Mystery Man Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 19:08:10
Bonnie:
This is what Bigdog said >
" I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering."
Yes... and what he said is true. I too feel sadness for those who went to their eternity without Jesus. We don't know why ... some could have heard the gospel and rejected it. Some could have thought their "religion" was protection from Hell. Some but the truth is "ALL" will be asked if they "know" Jesus and not everyone who lives and dies will be able to say yes.
I would love to hear someone say that "EVERYONE" on that plane knew Jesus... but that is not realistic.
Bigdog didn't judge anyone. He spoke the Judgment of God that is already set forth for eternity in the WORD of God. GOD says that there will be those who do not know him and who will spend eternity in Hell. If it weren't true... there would have been no need for Calvary... for we all could have just gone to Heaven, regardless of being forgiven or not.
We know this much... however long it took for that plane to go down... (someone said 8 second)... that is how long they had to repent of their sins if they hadn't yet. That is the bottom line. 8 seconds is plenty of time.
It is not intent to argue over this issue. But I would like to share my view. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
Some are called and some are not. The Word tells us that many are called but few are chosen. Even the many are not "all". Even though they were not called, does not mean they are going to the lake of fire to suffer forever .
There were many in the OT that never knew, nor even heard that there was going to be a saviour. Are they all doomed to eternal suffering ? I would say - No !
Indeed some will, that is why the Word tells us of those whoes names are not in the book of life are headed to the eternal death. But the question is, how or why are their names not in the book of life ?
If their name is not in the book of life, it is because they committed an unforgivable sin. God is the one who takes their names out of the book of life.
Knowing or not knowing Jesus is not the criteria for one's name being taken out of the book of life.
Unforgivable sin is the critera.
Even those whom are not his sheep can receive eternal life in paradise , because of the love of God . That God sent his Son to save the world, not just those who are called to know Jesus. Jesus said that my sheep hear my voice. We are called for a purpose. So that the world might know him , and follow righteousness by our example.
God is no respector of persons. So those whom God has not called, does not in any way mean that they are headed to a life of tourture and pain and suffering. They have to commit an unforgivable sin before that would happen.
The Word tells us that Jesus is not only the saviour of the body of Christ, but the saviour of the world. Those who lived in the OT, as well as those who live now and in the future. This is the Love of God, that yet when we were still sinners. He sent his son to die for the sins of the world.
Sin is unrighteousness, and unrighteousness is living in death. But God loved us so much that while we were yet in our sins, we were given eternal life because of what he accomplished on the cross and his resurrection.
We who have been called and chosen know Jesus. But not "all" have been called. Only many.
The people in the OT will be judged according to the covenant they had with God. Now that Christ has come there is no other way to the sheep's fold but through him.
Christ didn't save us in our sins, he saved us from them ... when we were willing to repent. Consider the verses below -
Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people [unto him] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Bonnie
Who was under the old covenant ? Israel - right ? But millions upon millions of people lived and died in the OT,and they were not under the old covenant , correct ? So what you are saying is that because they were not under the old covenant they are doomed ?
Israel was God's chosen people but not all of them were saved due to rebellion.
They did as God told them to, wiping out the enemy's of God. I cannot say more.
Bonnie
Not everyone in the OT was the enemy of God, if they were not of the nation of Israel.
God even took some of Israel's names out of the book of life. And they were under the old covenant. Once someone's name is taken out of the book of life, there is only one destination, and it is not eternal life, but eternal death in the second death.
That's what I said not all of Israel was saved. I never said that everyone not of Israel was God's enemy. I said I don't know about them.
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 06:00:30
: sopranette Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 05:47:13
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 05:40:21
: kensington Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 00:58:00
: Mystery Man Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 19:08:10
Bonnie:
This is what Bigdog said >
" I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering."
Yes... and what he said is true. I too feel sadness for those who went to their eternity without Jesus. We don't know why ... some could have heard the gospel and rejected it. Some could have thought their "religion" was protection from Hell. Some but the truth is "ALL" will be asked if they "know" Jesus and not everyone who lives and dies will be able to say yes.
I would love to hear someone say that "EVERYONE" on that plane knew Jesus... but that is not realistic.
Bigdog didn't judge anyone. He spoke the Judgment of God that is already set forth for eternity in the WORD of God. GOD says that there will be those who do not know him and who will spend eternity in Hell. If it weren't true... there would have been no need for Calvary... for we all could have just gone to Heaven, regardless of being forgiven or not.
We know this much... however long it took for that plane to go down... (someone said 8 second)... that is how long they had to repent of their sins if they hadn't yet. That is the bottom line. 8 seconds is plenty of time.
It is not intent to argue over this issue. But I would like to share my view. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
Some are called and some are not. The Word tells us that many are called but few are chosen. Even the many are not "all". Even though they were not called, does not mean they are going to the lake of fire to suffer forever .
There were many in the OT that never knew, nor even heard that there was going to be a saviour. Are they all doomed to eternal suffering ? I would say - No !
Indeed some will, that is why the Word tells us of those whoes names are not in the book of life are headed to the eternal death. But the question is, how or why are their names not in the book of life ?
If their name is not in the book of life, it is because they committed an unforgivable sin. God is the one who takes their names out of the book of life.
Knowing or not knowing Jesus is not the criteria for one's name being taken out of the book of life.
Unforgivable sin is the critera.
Even those whom are not his sheep can receive eternal life in paradise , because of the love of God . That God sent his Son to save the world, not just those who are called to know Jesus. Jesus said that my sheep hear my voice. We are called for a purpose. So that the world might know him , and follow righteousness by our example.
God is no respector of persons. So those whom God has not called, does not in any way mean that they are headed to a life of tourture and pain and suffering. They have to commit an unforgivable sin before that would happen.
The Word tells us that Jesus is not only the saviour of the body of Christ, but the saviour of the world. Those who lived in the OT, as well as those who live now and in the future. This is the Love of God, that yet when we were still sinners. He sent his son to die for the sins of the world.
Sin is unrighteousness, and unrighteousness is living in death. But God loved us so much that while we were yet in our sins, we were given eternal life because of what he accomplished on the cross and his resurrection.
We who have been called and chosen know Jesus. But not "all" have been called. Only many.
No, just because someone has heard of the name Jesus, doesn't make that person automatically saved. It is the belief in Jesus as the only begotten Son. Where on earth did you get that from? Not even everybody who calls out "Father, Father" will be saved, but some will hear His answer, "I never knew you.". There is also no such thing as an "unforgiveable sin", and one can repent and be saved as long as one is still drawing breath. And Bonnie is right; the people in the OT were under a different covenant, and those who called on the Father were saved then.
love,
Sopranette
Jesus said - "My Sheep" hear my voice. He also said that no one would pluck any of his sheep away from him.
This is not about someone hearing you or I talk about Jesus. This is about those who know Jesus because they are his sheep.
The standard for going to eternal punishment is to commit an unforgivable sin. All of us sin. And Jesus didn't just die for you and I, but the whole world. All the sins of the world. The only sins not covered are those who commit an unforgivable sin. Murder is one of the unforgivable sins.
The standard is not in just knowing him ! And only God can take one's name out of the book of life.
Remember, we are dealing with the OP words here. Not a long conversation about generalities.
To know Jesus is because you are one of his Sheep. If you are not one of his sheep, it does not mean that you are going to be in eternal punishment and pain and suffering. This is the standard by which the OP used . And it is wrong to even suggest that those who do not know Jesus are headed for eternal punishment and pain and suffering. You and I have no idea as to why or whom God has called. God wants all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. But not all will. And that is not because they are evil people. It is because they were not called.
peoples sins are not covered by Jesus unless they make Him their Lord. If everyones sins were forgiven what would be the point of being a Christian? The all roads lead to God is worng and entirely unBiblical
: MegaJedi Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 02:12:35
Sorry I will believe the Bible over some pdf.
I agree with the OP.
I believe the bible and so does the one who wrote what is in the pdf.
"There were many in the OT that never knew, nor even heard that there was going to be a saviour. Are they all doomed to eternal suffering ? I would say - No !"
Hearing of the Savior is not the criteria... It is the witness of the Holy Spirit.
The WORD says we have that witness in everything/nature around us in creation, that no man has excuse. No man has an excuse to say there is no God, it is the witness in the hearts of man by the Holy Spirit and if they reject that, there is no excuse.
: sopranette Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 06:41:17
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 06:34:02
: sopranette Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 06:24:50
When someone rejects Jesus and does not repent, that is a sin so terrible, it will put a person in a position so acutely painful spiritually, it is as close to death in it's suffering. It is not one sin, but a lifetime of rejecting God's Word. The verse does not say there are sins that cause death, but that that person is facing an eternity separated from God. "Unto death" is a way of saying someone is deathly ill, but not actually dead. That particular passage says we are to make an intercessory prayer for that brother.
love,
sopranette
I John 3:15 says you can not pray for them
No, it doesn't.
love,
Sopranette
I gave you the wrong verse. It is I John 5:16
: chosenone Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 06:49:57
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 06:00:30
: sopranette Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 05:47:13
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 05:40:21
: kensington Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 00:58:00
: Mystery Man Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 19:08:10
Bonnie:
This is what Bigdog said >
" I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering."
Yes... and what he said is true. I too feel sadness for those who went to their eternity without Jesus. We don't know why ... some could have heard the gospel and rejected it. Some could have thought their "religion" was protection from Hell. Some but the truth is "ALL" will be asked if they "know" Jesus and not everyone who lives and dies will be able to say yes.
I would love to hear someone say that "EVERYONE" on that plane knew Jesus... but that is not realistic.
Bigdog didn't judge anyone. He spoke the Judgment of God that is already set forth for eternity in the WORD of God. GOD says that there will be those who do not know him and who will spend eternity in Hell. If it weren't true... there would have been no need for Calvary... for we all could have just gone to Heaven, regardless of being forgiven or not.
We know this much... however long it took for that plane to go down... (someone said 8 second)... that is how long they had to repent of their sins if they hadn't yet. That is the bottom line. 8 seconds is plenty of time.
It is not intent to argue over this issue. But I would like to share my view. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
Some are called and some are not. The Word tells us that many are called but few are chosen. Even the many are not "all". Even though they were not called, does not mean they are going to the lake of fire to suffer forever .
There were many in the OT that never knew, nor even heard that there was going to be a saviour. Are they all doomed to eternal suffering ? I would say - No !
Indeed some will, that is why the Word tells us of those whoes names are not in the book of life are headed to the eternal death. But the question is, how or why are their names not in the book of life ?
If their name is not in the book of life, it is because they committed an unforgivable sin. God is the one who takes their names out of the book of life.
Knowing or not knowing Jesus is not the criteria for one's name being taken out of the book of life.
Unforgivable sin is the critera.
Even those whom are not his sheep can receive eternal life in paradise , because of the love of God . That God sent his Son to save the world, not just those who are called to know Jesus. Jesus said that my sheep hear my voice. We are called for a purpose. So that the world might know him , and follow righteousness by our example.
God is no respector of persons. So those whom God has not called, does not in any way mean that they are headed to a life of tourture and pain and suffering. They have to commit an unforgivable sin before that would happen.
The Word tells us that Jesus is not only the saviour of the body of Christ, but the saviour of the world. Those who lived in the OT, as well as those who live now and in the future. This is the Love of God, that yet when we were still sinners. He sent his son to die for the sins of the world.
Sin is unrighteousness, and unrighteousness is living in death. But God loved us so much that while we were yet in our sins, we were given eternal life because of what he accomplished on the cross and his resurrection.
We who have been called and chosen know Jesus. But not "all" have been called. Only many.
No, just because someone has heard of the name Jesus, doesn't make that person automatically saved. It is the belief in Jesus as the only begotten Son. Where on earth did you get that from? Not even everybody who calls out "Father, Father" will be saved, but some will hear His answer, "I never knew you.". There is also no such thing as an "unforgiveable sin", and one can repent and be saved as long as one is still drawing breath. And Bonnie is right; the people in the OT were under a different covenant, and those who called on the Father were saved then.
love,
Sopranette
Jesus said - "My Sheep" hear my voice. He also said that no one would pluck any of his sheep away from him.
This is not about someone hearing you or I talk about Jesus. This is about those who know Jesus because they are his sheep.
The standard for going to eternal punishment is to commit an unforgivable sin. All of us sin. And Jesus didn't just die for you and I, but the whole world. All the sins of the world. The only sins not covered are those who commit an unforgivable sin. Murder is one of the unforgivable sins.
The standard is not in just knowing him ! And only God can take one's name out of the book of life.
Remember, we are dealing with the OP words here. Not a long conversation about generalities.
To know Jesus is because you are one of his Sheep. If you are not one of his sheep, it does not mean that you are going to be in eternal punishment and pain and suffering. This is the standard by which the OP used . And it is wrong to even suggest that those who do not know Jesus are headed for eternal punishment and pain and suffering. You and I have no idea as to why or whom God has called. God wants all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. But not all will. And that is not because they are evil people. It is because they were not called.
peoples sins are not covered by Jesus unless they make Him their Lord. If everyones sins were forgiven what would be the point of being a Christian? The all roads lead to God is worng and entirely unBiblical
Chosenone
What would be the point of the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ , if all who lived and died in the OT have no way of having their sins forgiven ?
Thousands of years pass in the OT and millions upon millions of people lived and died in the OT. If Jesus only died for Christians, what would that say about God ? That he is a respector of persons ?
Yes, the only way to God is through our Lord Jesus Christ. And that is what is expected of the church. My sheep hear my voice. Most of us are gentiles my nature. But we are called the lost sheep of Israel. Not of the nation of Israel, but of the Israel of God. Israel also means - "ones ruling with God". Christians rule with God. Christians are made up of both Jews and Gentiles. All one in Christ.
But those who lived and died in the OT could never have known. It was not made available to them, except through the prophets of the OT. Millions upon millions were not of the nation of Israel and they lived and died without any knowledge of God whatsoever.
God sent his son , not only to die for the Church , but for the rest of the world as well. OT people as well as now and the future. Up until such time that no one will come to a knowledge of the truth.
Only evil people go through the wrath of God period, called the great tribulation. This is what we are "saved" from ! < This is our salvation that was promised.
Eternity is based upon the book of life, and if your name is in the book of life.
Rev. 20:15 - "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire"
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 07:52:27
: chosenone Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 06:49:57
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 06:00:30
: sopranette Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 05:47:13
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 05:40:21
: kensington Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 00:58:00
: Mystery Man Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 19:08:10
Bonnie:
This is what Bigdog said >
" I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering."
Yes... and what he said is true. I too feel sadness for those who went to their eternity without Jesus. We don't know why ... some could have heard the gospel and rejected it. Some could have thought their "religion" was protection from Hell. Some but the truth is "ALL" will be asked if they "know" Jesus and not everyone who lives and dies will be able to say yes.
I would love to hear someone say that "EVERYONE" on that plane knew Jesus... but that is not realistic.
Bigdog didn't judge anyone. He spoke the Judgment of God that is already set forth for eternity in the WORD of God. GOD says that there will be those who do not know him and who will spend eternity in Hell. If it weren't true... there would have been no need for Calvary... for we all could have just gone to Heaven, regardless of being forgiven or not.
We know this much... however long it took for that plane to go down... (someone said 8 second)... that is how long they had to repent of their sins if they hadn't yet. That is the bottom line. 8 seconds is plenty of time.
It is not intent to argue over this issue. But I would like to share my view. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
Some are called and some are not. The Word tells us that many are called but few are chosen. Even the many are not "all". Even though they were not called, does not mean they are going to the lake of fire to suffer forever .
There were many in the OT that never knew, nor even heard that there was going to be a saviour. Are they all doomed to eternal suffering ? I would say - No !
Indeed some will, that is why the Word tells us of those whoes names are not in the book of life are headed to the eternal death. But the question is, how or why are their names not in the book of life ?
If their name is not in the book of life, it is because they committed an unforgivable sin. God is the one who takes their names out of the book of life.
Knowing or not knowing Jesus is not the criteria for one's name being taken out of the book of life.
Unforgivable sin is the critera.
Even those whom are not his sheep can receive eternal life in paradise , because of the love of God . That God sent his Son to save the world, not just those who are called to know Jesus. Jesus said that my sheep hear my voice. We are called for a purpose. So that the world might know him , and follow righteousness by our example.
God is no respector of persons. So those whom God has not called, does not in any way mean that they are headed to a life of tourture and pain and suffering. They have to commit an unforgivable sin before that would happen.
The Word tells us that Jesus is not only the saviour of the body of Christ, but the saviour of the world. Those who lived in the OT, as well as those who live now and in the future. This is the Love of God, that yet when we were still sinners. He sent his son to die for the sins of the world.
Sin is unrighteousness, and unrighteousness is living in death. But God loved us so much that while we were yet in our sins, we were given eternal life because of what he accomplished on the cross and his resurrection.
We who have been called and chosen know Jesus. But not "all" have been called. Only many.
No, just because someone has heard of the name Jesus, doesn't make that person automatically saved. It is the belief in Jesus as the only begotten Son. Where on earth did you get that from? Not even everybody who calls out "Father, Father" will be saved, but some will hear His answer, "I never knew you.". There is also no such thing as an "unforgiveable sin", and one can repent and be saved as long as one is still drawing breath. And Bonnie is right; the people in the OT were under a different covenant, and those who called on the Father were saved then.
love,
Sopranette
Jesus said - "My Sheep" hear my voice. He also said that no one would pluck any of his sheep away from him.
This is not about someone hearing you or I talk about Jesus. This is about those who know Jesus because they are his sheep.
The standard for going to eternal punishment is to commit an unforgivable sin. All of us sin. And Jesus didn't just die for you and I, but the whole world. All the sins of the world. The only sins not covered are those who commit an unforgivable sin. Murder is one of the unforgivable sins.
The standard is not in just knowing him ! And only God can take one's name out of the book of life.
Remember, we are dealing with the OP words here. Not a long conversation about generalities.
To know Jesus is because you are one of his Sheep. If you are not one of his sheep, it does not mean that you are going to be in eternal punishment and pain and suffering. This is the standard by which the OP used . And it is wrong to even suggest that those who do not know Jesus are headed for eternal punishment and pain and suffering. You and I have no idea as to why or whom God has called. God wants all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. But not all will. And that is not because they are evil people. It is because they were not called.
peoples sins are not covered by Jesus unless they make Him their Lord. If everyones sins were forgiven what would be the point of being a Christian? The all roads lead to God is worng and entirely unBiblical
Chosenone
What would be the point of the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ , if all who lived and died in the OT have no way of having their sins forgiven ?
Thousands of years pass in the OT and millions upon millions of people lived and died in the OT. If Jesus only died for Christians, what would that say about God ? That he is a respector of persons ?
Yes, the only way to God is through our Lord Jesus Christ. And that is what is expected of the church. My sheep hear my voice. Most of us are gentiles my nature. But we are called the lost sheep of Israel. Not of the nation of Israel, but of the Israel of God. Israel also means - "ones ruling with God". Christians rule with God. Christians are made up of both Jews and Gentiles. All one in Christ.
But those who lived and died in the OT could never have known. It was not made available to them, except through the prophets of the OT. Millions upon millions were not of the nation of Israel and they lived and died without any knowledge of God whatsoever.
God sent his son , not only to die for the Church , but for the rest of the world as well. OT people as well as now and the future. Up until such time that no one will come to a knowledge of the truth.
Only evil people go through the wrath of God period, called the great tribulation. This is what we are "saved" from ! < This is our salvation that was promised.
Eternity is based upon the book of life, and if your name is in the book of life.
Rev. 20:15 - "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire"
I don't understand where you get a lot of your ideas. For instance, that Christ only died for the church. He died for Sinners. Those that are whole need no physician. There really was no church in the sense of the word until the Apostles began forming them for both the Jew and the Gentile. Of course God has always had a people.
Your name gets blotted out of the book of life for living a sinful life and not one according to the Will of God. There are only two groups of people as seen by the Lord and they are the saved and the unsaved. Those who "hear His voice" are those who also are following in His footsteps.
Our sins aren't automatically forgiven. We must repent and leave that lifestyle behind.
Mystery man, I was talking about those who have lived since Jesus died for us who can only be save through Him. Those who lived before wont be judged in the same way of course.
: chosenone Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 09:02:06
Mystery man, I was talking about those who have lived since Jesus died for us who can only be save through Him. Those who lived before wont be judged in the same way of course.
I wonder about this. Isn't our God powerful enough that Christ's blood could cover the sins of the past as well?
Your answer is in Hebrews..
: kensington Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 10:39:53
Your answer is in Hebrews..
I gotta start checking some of these at home where my Bible is ::smile::
: fanuvmxpx Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 10:41:49
: kensington Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 10:39:53
Your answer is in Hebrews..
I gotta start checking some of these at home where my Bible is ::smile::
Or, you could use the Bible Search function in the top menu. ::reading::
: chosenone Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 09:02:06
Mystery man, I was talking about those who have lived since Jesus died for us who can only be save through Him. Those who lived before wont be judged in the same way of course.
Chosenone
Yes, of course. We who are the called out. But those on that plane who were not called out and died along with those who were, still can be covered by the blood of Christ.
This is where we let God be the Judge.
No one is going to know him unless they are the called out. But not all are called out. Many, but not all. That means we serve a purpose. But God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son.
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 12:15:47
But God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son.
...that whosoever believeth in Him shall have everlasting life. Those who believeth not are condemned already.
love,
sopranette
: Bonnie Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 08:54:36
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 07:52:27
: chosenone Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 06:49:57
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 06:00:30
: sopranette Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 05:47:13
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 05:40:21
: kensington Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 00:58:00
: Mystery Man Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 19:08:10
Bonnie:
This is what Bigdog said >
" I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering."
Yes... and what he said is true. I too feel sadness for those who went to their eternity without Jesus. We don't know why ... some could have heard the gospel and rejected it. Some could have thought their "religion" was protection from Hell. Some but the truth is "ALL" will be asked if they "know" Jesus and not everyone who lives and dies will be able to say yes.
I would love to hear someone say that "EVERYONE" on that plane knew Jesus... but that is not realistic.
Bigdog didn't judge anyone. He spoke the Judgment of God that is already set forth for eternity in the WORD of God. GOD says that there will be those who do not know him and who will spend eternity in Hell. If it weren't true... there would have been no need for Calvary... for we all could have just gone to Heaven, regardless of being forgiven or not.
We know this much... however long it took for that plane to go down... (someone said 8 second)... that is how long they had to repent of their sins if they hadn't yet. That is the bottom line. 8 seconds is plenty of time.
It is not intent to argue over this issue. But I would like to share my view. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
Some are called and some are not. The Word tells us that many are called but few are chosen. Even the many are not "all". Even though they were not called, does not mean they are going to the lake of fire to suffer forever .
There were many in the OT that never knew, nor even heard that there was going to be a saviour. Are they all doomed to eternal suffering ? I would say - No !
Indeed some will, that is why the Word tells us of those whoes names are not in the book of life are headed to the eternal death. But the question is, how or why are their names not in the book of life ?
If their name is not in the book of life, it is because they committed an unforgivable sin. God is the one who takes their names out of the book of life.
Knowing or not knowing Jesus is not the criteria for one's name being taken out of the book of life.
Unforgivable sin is the critera.
Even those whom are not his sheep can receive eternal life in paradise , because of the love of God . That God sent his Son to save the world, not just those who are called to know Jesus. Jesus said that my sheep hear my voice. We are called for a purpose. So that the world might know him , and follow righteousness by our example.
God is no respector of persons. So those whom God has not called, does not in any way mean that they are headed to a life of tourture and pain and suffering. They have to commit an unforgivable sin before that would happen.
The Word tells us that Jesus is not only the saviour of the body of Christ, but the saviour of the world. Those who lived in the OT, as well as those who live now and in the future. This is the Love of God, that yet when we were still sinners. He sent his son to die for the sins of the world.
Sin is unrighteousness, and unrighteousness is living in death. But God loved us so much that while we were yet in our sins, we were given eternal life because of what he accomplished on the cross and his resurrection.
We who have been called and chosen know Jesus. But not "all" have been called. Only many.
No, just because someone has heard of the name Jesus, doesn't make that person automatically saved. It is the belief in Jesus as the only begotten Son. Where on earth did you get that from? Not even everybody who calls out "Father, Father" will be saved, but some will hear His answer, "I never knew you.". There is also no such thing as an "unforgiveable sin", and one can repent and be saved as long as one is still drawing breath. And Bonnie is right; the people in the OT were under a different covenant, and those who called on the Father were saved then.
love,
Sopranette
Jesus said - "My Sheep" hear my voice. He also said that no one would pluck any of his sheep away from him.
This is not about someone hearing you or I talk about Jesus. This is about those who know Jesus because they are his sheep.
The standard for going to eternal punishment is to commit an unforgivable sin. All of us sin. And Jesus didn't just die for you and I, but the whole world. All the sins of the world. The only sins not covered are those who commit an unforgivable sin. Murder is one of the unforgivable sins.
The standard is not in just knowing him ! And only God can take one's name out of the book of life.
Remember, we are dealing with the OP words here. Not a long conversation about generalities.
To know Jesus is because you are one of his Sheep. If you are not one of his sheep, it does not mean that you are going to be in eternal punishment and pain and suffering. This is the standard by which the OP used . And it is wrong to even suggest that those who do not know Jesus are headed for eternal punishment and pain and suffering. You and I have no idea as to why or whom God has called. God wants all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. But not all will. And that is not because they are evil people. It is because they were not called.
peoples sins are not covered by Jesus unless they make Him their Lord. If everyones sins were forgiven what would be the point of being a Christian? The all roads lead to God is worng and entirely unBiblical
Chosenone
What would be the point of the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ , if all who lived and died in the OT have no way of having their sins forgiven ?
Thousands of years pass in the OT and millions upon millions of people lived and died in the OT. If Jesus only died for Christians, what would that say about God ? That he is a respector of persons ?
Yes, the only way to God is through our Lord Jesus Christ. And that is what is expected of the church. My sheep hear my voice. Most of us are gentiles my nature. But we are called the lost sheep of Israel. Not of the nation of Israel, but of the Israel of God. Israel also means - "ones ruling with God". Christians rule with God. Christians are made up of both Jews and Gentiles. All one in Christ.
But those who lived and died in the OT could never have known. It was not made available to them, except through the prophets of the OT. Millions upon millions were not of the nation of Israel and they lived and died without any knowledge of God whatsoever.
God sent his son , not only to die for the Church , but for the rest of the world as well. OT people as well as now and the future. Up until such time that no one will come to a knowledge of the truth.
Only evil people go through the wrath of God period, called the great tribulation. This is what we are "saved" from ! < This is our salvation that was promised.
Eternity is based upon the book of life, and if your name is in the book of life.
Rev. 20:15 - "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire"
I don't understand where you get a lot of your ideas. For instance, that Christ only died for the church. He died for Sinners. Those that are whole need no physician. There really was no church in the sense of the word until the Apostles began forming them for both the Jew and the Gentile. Of course God has always had a people.
Your name gets blotted out of the book of life for living a sinful life and not one according to the Will of God. There are only two groups of people as seen by the Lord and they are the saved and the unsaved. Those who "hear His voice" are those who also are following in His footsteps.
Our sins aren't automatically forgiven. We must repent and leave that lifestyle behind.
Bonnie
Those dead can not change and they can not ask for forgiveness. Those who are alive, yet they are not called, do not have to ask for forgiveness of their sins . We who are called repent (change) because we have been given an enlightenment to change. Those who are not called out, will never change nor will they ever repent. And God is not asking them too.
God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son. He is the saviour of the body, but also the saviour of the world. Living, dead, or future people who live or die. Our sins are taken care of. It was accomplished on the cross.
Too many people confuse salvation with eternity. Salvation deals with being saved for or from, not unto !
We are saved from the wrath to come. We serve God to bring the light unto the world. Some people are not called, and they will never see eye to eye on the salvation we offer them. However, we can also show them through our righteous walks, that we are the lights of the world. And that eternity is because of the sacrifice of God's Son, and that his death and resurrection was for the whole world. And the sins of the world. The Apostle Paul used this comment more than once - "for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear let them hear". We bring forth the light. We proclaim that all mankinds sins have been forgiven through Jesus Christ. But we also warn them of sin that is not forgivable. Murder being one.
Jesus Christ said he was the resurrection and the life. This we proclaim to the world. We as Christians hear his voice and we have heard our calling, and accepted our salvation through Christ.
: sopranette Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 12:23:57
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 12:15:47
But God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son.
...that whosoever believeth in Him shall have everlasting life. Those who believeth not are condemned already.
love,
sopranette
This is a myth ! It is a myth because you are not reading context. The word "condemnation" within it context is showing us from John 3:15 - 19 that the light condemns the darkness that is in the world. We as Christians condem murder. We as Christians condemn stealing. We as Christians condemn lying etc, etc. We are the lights of the world, and we condemn sin and unrighteousness. This is why we should oppose homosexuality and other sins .
Always read context, and never read into something that is not true. Too many christians claim that those who do not believe on him are condemned to eternal damnation. But that is just not true. Again, by believing such a myth, you are judging them who do not believe. Instead of judging the unrighteousness in their lives, and condeming such unrighteous acts, they then become condemed of sin.
The Word tells us that the world will hate you. They will hate you for the condemnation you bring upon them by their unrighteous acts. We must speak out against unrighteousness. When you do this, trust me, the world will hate you.
This world is waxing worse and worse. We now are starting to see homosexual marriages becoming law. As Christians you must stand opposed and condemn it.
Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on Him shall not be ashamed
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon Him
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
This is really basic stuff.
love,
sopranette
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 12:42:57
: sopranette Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 12:23:57
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 12:15:47
But God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son.
...that whosoever believeth in Him shall have everlasting life. Those who believeth not are condemned already.
love,
sopranette
This is a myth ! It is a myth because you are not reading context. The word "condemnation" within it context is showing us from John 3:15 - 19 that the light condemns the darkness that is in the world. We as Christians condem murder. We as Christians condemn stealing. We as Christians condemn lying etc, etc. We are the lights of the world, and we condemn sin and unrighteousness. This is why we should oppose homosexuality and other sins .
Always read context, and never read into something that is not true. Too many christians claim that those who do not believe on him are condemned to eternal damnation. But that is just not true. Again, by believing such a myth, you are judging them who do not believe. Instead of judging the unrighteousness in their lives, and condeming such unrighteous acts, they then become condemed of sin.
The Word tells us that the world will hate you. They will hate you for the condemnation you bring upon them by their unrighteous acts. We must speak out against unrighteousness. When you do this, trust me, the world will hate you.
This world is waxing worse and worse. We now are starting to see homosexual marriages becoming law. As Christians you must stand opposed and condemn it.
I will continue to speak out against those Christians who say Jesus is NOT the only way to the Father.
love,
sopranette
Normally the wife gets the kids and house in a divorce. What's going to happen when gays start getting divorced? Will there have to be a special hearing to determine who, exactly, is the wife? Will they both go to hell for being gay AND getting a divorce? ::pondering::
: sopranette Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 13:01:09
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 12:42:57
: sopranette Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 12:23:57
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 12:15:47
But God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son.
...that whosoever believeth in Him shall have everlasting life. Those who believeth not are condemned already.
love,
sopranette
This is a myth ! It is a myth because you are not reading context. The word "condemnation" within it context is showing us from John 3:15 - 19 that the light condemns the darkness that is in the world. We as Christians condem murder. We as Christians condemn stealing. We as Christians condemn lying etc, etc. We are the lights of the world, and we condemn sin and unrighteousness. This is why we should oppose homosexuality and other sins .
Always read context, and never read into something that is not true. Too many christians claim that those who do not believe on him are condemned to eternal damnation. But that is just not true. Again, by believing such a myth, you are judging them who do not believe. Instead of judging the unrighteousness in their lives, and condeming such unrighteous acts, they then become condemed of sin.
The Word tells us that the world will hate you. They will hate you for the condemnation you bring upon them by their unrighteous acts. We must speak out against unrighteousness. When you do this, trust me, the world will hate you.
This world is waxing worse and worse. We now are starting to see homosexual marriages becoming law. As Christians you must stand opposed and condemn it.
I will continue to speak out against those Christians who say Jesus is NOT the only way to the Father.
love,
sopranette
He is the only way to the Father, no doubt about it. But the world will not agree with you. And that is understandable. They are not called out. But tell them anyways, because it is the truth.
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 13:43:11
: sopranette Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 13:01:09
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 12:42:57
: sopranette Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 12:23:57
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 12:15:47
But God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son.
...that whosoever believeth in Him shall have everlasting life. Those who believeth not are condemned already.
love,
sopranette
This is a myth ! It is a myth because you are not reading context. The word "condemnation" within it context is showing us from John 3:15 - 19 that the light condemns the darkness that is in the world. We as Christians condem murder. We as Christians condemn stealing. We as Christians condemn lying etc, etc. We are the lights of the world, and we condemn sin and unrighteousness. This is why we should oppose homosexuality and other sins .
Always read context, and never read into something that is not true. Too many christians claim that those who do not believe on him are condemned to eternal damnation. But that is just not true. Again, by believing such a myth, you are judging them who do not believe. Instead of judging the unrighteousness in their lives, and condeming such unrighteous acts, they then become condemed of sin.
The Word tells us that the world will hate you. They will hate you for the condemnation you bring upon them by their unrighteous acts. We must speak out against unrighteousness. When you do this, trust me, the world will hate you.
This world is waxing worse and worse. We now are starting to see homosexual marriages becoming law. As Christians you must stand opposed and condemn it.
I will continue to speak out against those Christians who say Jesus is NOT the only way to the Father.
love,
sopranette
He is the only way to the Father, no doubt about it. But the world will not agree with you. And that is understandable. They are not called out. But tell them anyways, because it is the truth.
DoesNt the BibLe say that God os not partial to anyone or towards anyone ?
: chosenone Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 14:54:52
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 13:43:11
: sopranette Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 13:01:09
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 12:42:57
: sopranette Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 12:23:57
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 12:15:47
But God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son.
...that whosoever believeth in Him shall have everlasting life. Those who believeth not are condemned already.
love,
sopranette
This is a myth ! It is a myth because you are not reading context. The word "condemnation" within it context is showing us from John 3:15 - 19 that the light condemns the darkness that is in the world. We as Christians condem murder. We as Christians condemn stealing. We as Christians condemn lying etc, etc. We are the lights of the world, and we condemn sin and unrighteousness. This is why we should oppose homosexuality and other sins .
Always read context, and never read into something that is not true. Too many christians claim that those who do not believe on him are condemned to eternal damnation. But that is just not true. Again, by believing such a myth, you are judging them who do not believe. Instead of judging the unrighteousness in their lives, and condeming such unrighteous acts, they then become condemed of sin.
The Word tells us that the world will hate you. They will hate you for the condemnation you bring upon them by their unrighteous acts. We must speak out against unrighteousness. When you do this, trust me, the world will hate you.
This world is waxing worse and worse. We now are starting to see homosexual marriages becoming law. As Christians you must stand opposed and condemn it.
I will continue to speak out against those Christians who say Jesus is NOT the only way to the Father.
love,
sopranette
He is the only way to the Father, no doubt about it. But the world will not agree with you. And that is understandable. They are not called out. But tell them anyways, because it is the truth.
DoesNt the BibLe say that God os not partial to anyone or towards anyone ?
God does say that he is no respector of persons , yes.
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 13:43:11
God does say that he is no respector of persons , yes.
Doesn't that then mean that a specific group 'called out' isn't possible? Because that would be partiality? God definitely chooses us, He created man, but man still has to "choose this day whom you will serve"
: fanuvmxpx Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 15:16:13
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 13:43:11
God does say that he is no respector of persons , yes.
Doesn't that then mean that a specific group 'called out' isn't possible? Because that would be partiality? God definitely chooses us, He created man, but man still has to "choose this day whom you will serve"
No, and this is why. Our being called out is for a purpose. As I stated above in my previous posts. We serve God. We are the Israel of God.
Jesus Christ is also the saviour of the world. Salvation is for a purpose. We are ambassadors for Christ. Reconcilling the world unto God.
Blaspheming the Holy Spirit and murder are the two unforgivable sins. All other sins are cleansed by the blood of Christ. Those who lived and died in the OT are going to receive cleansing from the sin of death. Which was the sin of Adam. This is why there is going to be two different resurrections. A resurrection of the Just and of the unjust. Christians are cleansed in Christ. The unjust will also be cleansed , but only of the sin of death.
Everything God does is for a purpose. For God is all love. Except those who commit one of the two unforgivable sins, they have eternal life to look forward too.
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 15:47:27
Everything God does is for a purpose. For God is all love. Except those who commit one of the two unforgivable sins, they have eternal life to look forward too.
What do you mean about those who commit one of the two unforgivable sins having eternal life? Eternal as in mortal flesh?
: fanuvmxpx Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 16:10:50
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 15:47:27
Everything God does is for a purpose. For God is all love. Except those who commit one of the two unforgivable sins, they have eternal life to look forward too.
What do you mean about those who commit one of the two unforgivable sins having eternal life? Eternal as in mortal flesh?
Our names are put in the book of life. The only way in which one's name can be taken out of the book of life is if God himself take one's name out of the book of life.
Murder is an unforgivable sin. A murderer hath no eternal life abiding in them - I John 3:15
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit which is Idolatry is also unforgivable - Matthew 12:31 & 32
"Blasphemy" means to speak out against / injuriously
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 16:28:45
Murder is an unforgivable sin. A murderer hath no eternal life abiding in them - I John 3:15
AGAIN...the "murderer" in I John 3:15 is the unbeliever who hates God's children.
love,
Sopranette
: sopranette Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 16:30:47
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 16:28:45
Murder is an unforgivable sin. A murderer hath no eternal life abiding in them - I John 3:15
AGAIN...the "murderer" in I John 3:15 is the unbeliever who hates God's children.
love,
Sopranette
He who hates his brother, is a murderer
So, MM, by your definition, neither David nor the Apostle Paul can look forward to eternal life, since they were both murderers.
It's going to take more than one verse yanked out of context for you to justify that contention, brother!
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 12:29:13
: Bonnie Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 08:54:36
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 07:52:27
: chosenone Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 06:49:57
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 06:00:30
: sopranette Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 05:47:13
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 05:40:21
: kensington Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 00:58:00
: Mystery Man Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 19:08:10
Bonnie:
This is what Bigdog said >
" I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering."
Yes... and what he said is true. I too feel sadness for those who went to their eternity without Jesus. We don't know why ... some could have heard the gospel and rejected it. Some could have thought their "religion" was protection from Hell. Some but the truth is "ALL" will be asked if they "know" Jesus and not everyone who lives and dies will be able to say yes.
I would love to hear someone say that "EVERYONE" on that plane knew Jesus... but that is not realistic.
Bigdog didn't judge anyone. He spoke the Judgment of God that is already set forth for eternity in the WORD of God. GOD says that there will be those who do not know him and who will spend eternity in Hell. If it weren't true... there would have been no need for Calvary... for we all could have just gone to Heaven, regardless of being forgiven or not.
We know this much... however long it took for that plane to go down... (someone said 8 second)... that is how long they had to repent of their sins if they hadn't yet. That is the bottom line. 8 seconds is plenty of time.
It is not intent to argue over this issue. But I would like to share my view. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
Some are called and some are not. The Word tells us that many are called but few are chosen. Even the many are not "all". Even though they were not called, does not mean they are going to the lake of fire to suffer forever .
There were many in the OT that never knew, nor even heard that there was going to be a saviour. Are they all doomed to eternal suffering ? I would say - No !
Indeed some will, that is why the Word tells us of those whoes names are not in the book of life are headed to the eternal death. But the question is, how or why are their names not in the book of life ?
If their name is not in the book of life, it is because they committed an unforgivable sin. God is the one who takes their names out of the book of life.
Knowing or not knowing Jesus is not the criteria for one's name being taken out of the book of life.
Unforgivable sin is the critera.
Even those whom are not his sheep can receive eternal life in paradise , because of the love of God . That God sent his Son to save the world, not just those who are called to know Jesus. Jesus said that my sheep hear my voice. We are called for a purpose. So that the world might know him , and follow righteousness by our example.
God is no respector of persons. So those whom God has not called, does not in any way mean that they are headed to a life of tourture and pain and suffering. They have to commit an unforgivable sin before that would happen.
The Word tells us that Jesus is not only the saviour of the body of Christ, but the saviour of the world. Those who lived in the OT, as well as those who live now and in the future. This is the Love of God, that yet when we were still sinners. He sent his son to die for the sins of the world.
Sin is unrighteousness, and unrighteousness is living in death. But God loved us so much that while we were yet in our sins, we were given eternal life because of what he accomplished on the cross and his resurrection.
We who have been called and chosen know Jesus. But not "all" have been called. Only many.
No, just because someone has heard of the name Jesus, doesn't make that person automatically saved. It is the belief in Jesus as the only begotten Son. Where on earth did you get that from? Not even everybody who calls out "Father, Father" will be saved, but some will hear His answer, "I never knew you.". There is also no such thing as an "unforgiveable sin", and one can repent and be saved as long as one is still drawing breath. And Bonnie is right; the people in the OT were under a different covenant, and those who called on the Father were saved then.
love,
Sopranette
Jesus said - "My Sheep" hear my voice. He also said that no one would pluck any of his sheep away from him.
This is not about someone hearing you or I talk about Jesus. This is about those who know Jesus because they are his sheep.
The standard for going to eternal punishment is to commit an unforgivable sin. All of us sin. And Jesus didn't just die for you and I, but the whole world. All the sins of the world. The only sins not covered are those who commit an unforgivable sin. Murder is one of the unforgivable sins.
The standard is not in just knowing him ! And only God can take one's name out of the book of life.
Remember, we are dealing with the OP words here. Not a long conversation about generalities.
To know Jesus is because you are one of his Sheep. If you are not one of his sheep, it does not mean that you are going to be in eternal punishment and pain and suffering. This is the standard by which the OP used . And it is wrong to even suggest that those who do not know Jesus are headed for eternal punishment and pain and suffering. You and I have no idea as to why or whom God has called. God wants all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. But not all will. And that is not because they are evil people. It is because they were not called.
peoples sins are not covered by Jesus unless they make Him their Lord. If everyones sins were forgiven what would be the point of being a Christian? The all roads lead to God is worng and entirely unBiblical
Chosenone
What would be the point of the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ , if all who lived and died in the OT have no way of having their sins forgiven ?
Thousands of years pass in the OT and millions upon millions of people lived and died in the OT. If Jesus only died for Christians, what would that say about God ? That he is a respector of persons ?
Yes, the only way to God is through our Lord Jesus Christ. And that is what is expected of the church. My sheep hear my voice. Most of us are gentiles my nature. But we are called the lost sheep of Israel. Not of the nation of Israel, but of the Israel of God. Israel also means - "ones ruling with God". Christians rule with God. Christians are made up of both Jews and Gentiles. All one in Christ.
But those who lived and died in the OT could never have known. It was not made available to them, except through the prophets of the OT. Millions upon millions were not of the nation of Israel and they lived and died without any knowledge of God whatsoever.
God sent his son , not only to die for the Church , but for the rest of the world as well. OT people as well as now and the future. Up until such time that no one will come to a knowledge of the truth.
Only evil people go through the wrath of God period, called the great tribulation. This is what we are "saved" from ! < This is our salvation that was promised.
Eternity is based upon the book of life, and if your name is in the book of life.
Rev. 20:15 - "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire"
I don't understand where you get a lot of your ideas. For instance, that Christ only died for the church. He died for Sinners. Those that are whole need no physician. There really was no church in the sense of the word until the Apostles began forming them for both the Jew and the Gentile. Of course God has always had a people.
Your name gets blotted out of the book of life for living a sinful life and not one according to the Will of God. There are only two groups of people as seen by the Lord and they are the saved and the unsaved. Those who "hear His voice" are those who also are following in His footsteps.
Our sins aren't automatically forgiven. We must repent and leave that lifestyle behind.
Bonnie
Those dead can not change and they can not ask for forgiveness. Those who are alive, yet they are not called, do not have to ask for forgiveness of their sins . We who are called repent (change) because we have been given an enlightenment to change. Those who are not called out, will never change nor will they ever repent. And God is not asking them too.
God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son. He is the saviour of the body, but also the saviour of the world. Living, dead, or future people who live or die. Our sins are taken care of. It was accomplished on the cross.
Too many people confuse salvation with eternity. Salvation deals with being saved for or from, not unto !
We are saved from the wrath to come. We serve God to bring the light unto the world. Some people are not called, and they will never see eye to eye on the salvation we offer them. However, we can also show them through our righteous walks, that we are the lights of the world. And that eternity is because of the sacrifice of God's Son, and that his death and resurrection was for the whole world. And the sins of the world. The Apostle Paul used this comment more than once - "for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear let them hear". We bring forth the light. We proclaim that all mankinds sins have been forgiven through Jesus Christ. But we also warn them of sin that is not forgivable. Murder being one.
Jesus Christ said he was the resurrection and the life. This we proclaim to the world. We as Christians hear his voice and we have heard our calling, and accepted our salvation through Christ.
Mystery Man, all sin (not repented of) is unforgivable. The soul that sins shall die. So what is left of that person who has died physically and then dies spiritually as well?
We don't make the rules, God does. The NT is full of what God's will is. We have no excuse for not forsaking what He came to destroy, which is the works of the devil.
You are right - some people will never change, they'll never repent or bow this side of eternity for many reasons. I will say again that our sins are not automatically forgiven.
Do you have any Scriptures to back these claims of yours up? For instance, if a person dies a Sinner, are you saying he will have another opportunity to repent after his death? Where do you get this from?
: Nevertheless Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 16:54:13
So, MM, by your definition, neither David nor the Apostle Paul can look forward to eternal life, since they were both murderers.
It's going to take more than one verse yanked out of context for you to justify that contention, brother!
Neither of them were murderers.
Bonnie:
No , there is no repentance after one's death.
Either their names are in the book of life or they are not. God is the only one who blots out their names.
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 17:09:30
: Nevertheless Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 16:54:13
So, MM, by your definition, neither David nor the Apostle Paul can look forward to eternal life, since they were both murderers.
It's going to take more than one verse yanked out of context for you to justify that contention, brother!
Neither of them were murderers.
By what Scriptures do you make this claim?
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 17:17:48
Bonnie:
No , there is no repentance after one's death.
Either their names are in the book of life or they are not. God is the only one who blots out their names.
Yes, He is; so what have you been posting about?
David was most certainly a murderer, and the bible says so. Read 2 Samuel 12:9-12.
And Paul was both a blasphemer and a murderer of Christians Acts 26:10.
love,
sopranette
Dear BigDog, I reckon you're shot down here even though you presented an honest opinion of things to come upon men, but because of the consensus of popular belief of some here that there is no consequence for sin, and no reward for faith, evidently Jesus suffered more than any man for no good reason.
Just continue to hear the reasoning of some here, and they would have you believe there is no future heaven, Satan is no longer free but locked up, and history shows them to be right. Next you will even be condemned as going to hell yourself if you don't believe as they do, and seldom, if any, will any come to your defense being satisfied to see you fall among those thieves of the freedom you have in Christ, wounded along side the road stripped of your raiment, and just watching you lying there half dead, and in this case even among brethren.
I say to you my brother in Christ, continue to have a heart toward God and His word, preach it as you have opportunity, and regard not the criticism of Pharisees among us. In warning of the brevity of our lives, you might just reach the one needing it at this very moment. Good post -
Thank you in Jesus' name - larry2
: sopranette Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 17:30:55
David was most certainly a murderer, and the bible says so. Read 2 Samuel 12:9-12.
love,
sopranette
David sent Uriah to war. David didn't slay Uriah with the sword literally. So the statement in II Samuel 12:9 is a figurative statement.
The word - "Killed" in II Samuel 12:9 is the Hebrew word - "nakah" , which means - "cause". The cause was, that he sent him to war.
If it had been the Hebrew word - "muth", it would be murder. But it is not !
Seriously, you make this up as you go along, don't you, MM. Yes, David caused Uriah to die, an innocent man, a war hero, and a trusted servant, so that David could steal his wife. That's murder in God's eyes. Now let's see you defend Paul's actions before his conversion.
love,
sopranette
: sopranette Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 17:46:55
Seriously, you make this up as you go along, don't you, MM. Yes, David caused Uriah to die, an innocent man, a war hero, and a trusted servant, so that David could steal his wife. That's murder in God's eyes.
love,
sopranette
Be careful. God didn't call it murder, and you shouldn't.
God most certainly did, and I have given you the verses. Where are yours?
love,
sopranette
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 17:43:55
: sopranette Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 17:30:55
David was most certainly a murderer, and the bible says so. Read 2 Samuel 12:9-12.
love,
sopranette
David sent Uriah to war. David didn't slay Uriah with the sword literally. So the statement in II Samuel 12:9 is a figurative statement.
The word - "Killed" in II Samuel 12:9 is the Hebrew word - "nakah" , which means - "cause". The cause was, that he sent him to war.
If it had been the Hebrew word - "muth", it would be murder. But it is not !
David did kill him, or had him killed. That is murder... and in this day and age you can get the death penalty for it. He used his position as King to send Uriah to a "CERTAIN" death because he did not sleep with Bathsheba to take the blame for the baby. God required and eye for an eye and took the life of his child. David committed murder.
: kensington Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 18:02:10
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 17:43:55
: sopranette Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 17:30:55
David was most certainly a murderer, and the bible says so. Read 2 Samuel 12:9-12.
love,
sopranette
David sent Uriah to war. David didn't slay Uriah with the sword literally. So the statement in II Samuel 12:9 is a figurative statement.
The word - "Killed" in II Samuel 12:9 is the Hebrew word - "nakah" , which means - "cause". The cause was, that he sent him to war.
If it had been the Hebrew word - "muth", it would be murder. But it is not !
David did kill him, or had him killed. That is murder... and in this day and age you can get the death penalty for it. He used his position as King to send Uriah to a "CERTAIN" death because he did not sleep with Bathsheba to take the blame for the baby. God required and eye for an eye and took the life of his child. David committed murder.
That was because of his adultery , not murder !
: sopranette Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 17:57:00
God most certainly did, and I have given you the verses. Where are yours?
love,
sopranette
You gave me no such verse that God told King David he committed murder !
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 17:48:09
: sopranette Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 17:46:55
Seriously, you make this up as you go along, don't you, MM. Yes, David caused Uriah to die, an innocent man, a war hero, and a trusted servant, so that David could steal his wife. That's murder in God's eyes.
love,
sopranette
Be careful. God didn't call it murder, and you shouldn't.
1 King 15:5 Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.As sopranette said, the taking of the life of Uriah was the shedding of innocent blood. The sword never left David's house after that.
Apostle Paul took Christians captive and turned them over to the Romans. He was among them who stoned Stephen, a man of God, to death.
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 18:05:06
: sopranette Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 17:57:00
God most certainly did, and I have given you the verses. Where are yours?
love,
sopranette
You gave me no such verse that God told King David he committed murder !
II Samuel 12:9
Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the Lord, to do evil in His sight? Thou hast
killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and has taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast
slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.
love,
sopranette
MM, have you read the Bible at all?
Why have you despised the word of the Lord by doing evil in his sight, you have struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword, have taken his wife to your wife, and "HAVE KILLED HIM WITH THE SWORD" of the sons of Ammon. (II Samuel 12:9)
God indeed called him a murderer... right from the mouth of Nathan the prophet.
Like I said, David sent him to a certain death at the sword of the men he commanded as king. That is murder.
: sopranette Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 18:10:29
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 18:05:06
: sopranette Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 17:57:00
God most certainly did, and I have given you the verses. Where are yours?
love,
sopranette
You gave me no such verse that God told King David he committed murder !
II Samuel 12:9
Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the Lord, to do evil in His sight? Thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and has taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.
love,
sopranette
God could have kept Uriah from being killed in war, but he didn't. Not everyone dies in war. Let me ask you, did everyone die from that battle , that David sent Uriah into ?
And I gave you the Hebrew word for this word "killed". Go and check it out. Do not put your own spin on things. That is private interpretation !
: sopranette Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 18:10:29
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 18:05:06
: sopranette Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 17:57:00
God most certainly did, and I have given you the verses. Where are yours?
love,
sopranette
You gave me no such verse that God told King David he committed murder !
II Samuel 12:9
Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the Lord, to do evil in His sight? Thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and has taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.
love,
sopranette
Yep, the children of Ammon killed him.
: kensington Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 18:23:04
Why have you despised the word of the Lord by doing evil in his sight, you have struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword, have taken his wife to your wife, and "HAVE KILLED HIM WITH THE SWORD" of the sons of Ammon. (II Samuel 12:9)
God indeed called him a murderer... right from the mouth of Nathan the prophet.
Like I said, David sent him to a certain death at the sword of the men he commanded as king. That is murder.
Amen!
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 18:28:01
: sopranette Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 18:10:29
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 18:05:06
: sopranette Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 17:57:00
God most certainly did, and I have given you the verses. Where are yours?
love,
sopranette
You gave me no such verse that God told King David he committed murder !
II Samuel 12:9
Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the Lord, to do evil in His sight? Thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and has taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.
love,
sopranette
Yep, the children of Ammon killed him.
Tell me you are kidding. Right?
I put my own spin on the Word of God? Oh, the irony! You were the one who said a person who hate
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 18:28:01
: sopranette Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 18:10:29
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 18:05:06
: sopranette Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 17:57:00
God most certainly did, and I have given you the verses. Where are yours?
love,
sopranette
You gave me no such verse that God told King David he committed murder !
II Samuel 12:9
Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the Lord, to do evil in His sight? Thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and has taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.
love,
sopranette
Yep, the children of Ammon killed him.
No, read it again.
Thou hast
killed.... Thou....David....
love,
sopranette
Yep, the children of Ammon killed him.
You are as blind as a bat. If you read II Samuel 12:9 any other way besides Nathan accusing David of murder... you are the one who is having private interpretation... among other things. Yikes!
: Bonnie Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 18:41:27
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 18:28:01
: sopranette Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 18:10:29
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 18:05:06
: sopranette Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 17:57:00
God most certainly did, and I have given you the verses. Where are yours?
love,
sopranette
You gave me no such verse that God told King David he committed murder !
II Samuel 12:9
Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the Lord, to do evil in His sight? Thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and has taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.
love,
sopranette
Yep, the children of Ammon killed him.
Tell me you are kidding. Right?
Sadly, I don't think he is. And he accuses me of putting my own spin on things, yet he is saying unbelievers will not be separated from God in eternity, and that both David and Paul were not murders. Bizarre!
love,
sopranette
: sopranette Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 17:46:55
Seriously, you make this up as you go along, don't you, MM. Yes, David caused Uriah to die, an innocent man, a war hero, and a trusted servant, so that David could steal his wife. That's murder in God's eyes. Now let's see you defend Paul's actions before his conversion.
love,
sopranette
/quote]
That is true. if you are a party to anothers death or murder, then even if you didnt actually do the deed, you are just as guilty. So if someone takes out a contract on another, and arranges for another to do the actual killing they can still be charged with murder, or accessory to murder.
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 18:04:19
: kensington Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 18:02:10
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 17:43:55
: sopranette Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 17:30:55
David was most certainly a murderer, and the bible says so. Read 2 Samuel 12:9-12.
love,
sopranette
David sent Uriah to war. David didn't slay Uriah with the sword literally. So the statement in II Samuel 12:9 is a figurative statement.
The word - "Killed" in II Samuel 12:9 is the Hebrew word - "nakah" , which means - "cause". The cause was, that he sent him to war.
If it had been the Hebrew word - "muth", it would be murder. But it is not !
David did kill him, or had him killed. That is murder... and in this day and age you can get the death penalty for it. He used his position as King to send Uriah to a "CERTAIN" death because he did not sleep with Bathsheba to take the blame for the baby. God required and eye for an eye and took the life of his child. David committed murder.
That was because of his adultery , not murder !
Adultery and murder, both just as terrible as each other.
: kensington Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 18:46:25
Yep, the children of Ammon killed him.
You are as blind as a bat. If you read II Samuel 12:9 any other way besides Nathan accusing David of murder... you are the one who is having private interpretation... among other things. Yikes!
Seriously, kensington! If God believed David was innocent, and the children of Ammon were guilty, He would have said, "they", and not "thou".
love,
: sopranette Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 18:47:22
: Bonnie Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 18:41:27
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 18:28:01
: sopranette Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 18:10:29
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 18:05:06
: sopranette Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 17:57:00
God most certainly did, and I have given you the verses. Where are yours?
love,
sopranette
You gave me no such verse that God told King David he committed murder !
II Samuel 12:9
Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the Lord, to do evil in His sight? Thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and has taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.
love,
sopranette
Yep, the children of Ammon killed him.
Tell me you are kidding. Right?
Sadly, I don't think he is. And he accuses me of putting my own spin on things, yet he is saying unbelievers will not be separated from God in eternity, and that both David and Paul were not murders. Bizarre!
love,
sopranette
You did your best. We can't help what he believes because we all have pointed out Scriptures to him and he will have none of it.
: sopranette Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 18:51:47
: kensington Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 18:46:25
Yep, the children of Ammon killed him.
You are as blind as a bat. If you read II Samuel 12:9 any other way besides Nathan accusing David of murder... you are the one who is having private interpretation... among other things. Yikes!
Seriously, kensington! If God believed David was innocent, and the children of Ammon were guilty, He would have said, "they", and not "thou".
love,
The bolded part in Kensington's post was a quote from Mystery Man I believe.
I've watched him do the same thing on many threads here, Bonnie.
love,
sopranette
: Gary Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 18:54:48
: sopranette Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 18:51:47
: kensington Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 18:46:25
Yep, the children of Ammon killed him.
You are as blind as a bat. If you read II Samuel 12:9 any other way besides Nathan accusing David of murder... you are the one who is having private interpretation... among other things. Yikes!
Seriously, kensington! If God believed David was innocent, and the children of Ammon were guilty, He would have said, "they", and not "thou".
love,
The bolded part in Kensington's post was a quote from Mystery Man I believe.
Thanks, Gary. Yes, I know.
love,
sopranette
: sopranette Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 18:55:17
I've watched him do the same thing on many threads here, Bonnie.
love,
sopranette
I had no idea. Thanks for telling me. ::tippinghat::
: Gary Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 18:54:48
: sopranette Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 18:51:47
: kensington Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 18:46:25
Yep, the children of Ammon killed him.
You are as blind as a bat. If you read II Samuel 12:9 any other way besides Nathan accusing David of murder... you are the one who is having private interpretation... among other things. Yikes!
Seriously, kensington! If God believed David was innocent, and the children of Ammon were guilty, He would have said, "they", and not "thou".
love,
The bolded part in Kensington's post was a quote from Mystery Man I believe.
True dat...
And we keep posting the same verses at him, kensington. I'm flabbergasted by this whole thread, personally.
love,
sopranette
And now prove to us how Paul was not a murderer before his conversion, MM. I love magic tricks.
love,
sopranette
If you purposefully push a man off the curb in front of a coming bus, you murdered him, not the driver of the bus.
Same idea with David and Uriah. David plotted his death and gave orders that carried it to fruition. The children of Ammon were merely the tools in the real murderer's plot, and that murderer was David.
Really, it's not complicated unless you're trying to eisegete (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/eisegete#Verb).
Show me where "God" called King David and murder !
: jmg3rd Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 19:03:50
If you purposefully push a man off the curb in front of a coming bus, you murdered him, not the driver of the bus.
Same idea with David and Uriah. David plotted his death and gave orders that carried it to fruition. The children of Ammon were merely the tools in the real murderer's plot, and that murderer was David.
Really, it's not complicated unless you're trying to eisegete (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/eisegete#Verb).
::amen::
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 19:11:23
Show me where "God" called King David and murder !
They already have, but you won't listen. Now, how about Paul?
: larry2 Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 17:42:27
Dear BigDog, I reckon you're shot down here even though you presented an honest opinion of things to come upon men, but because of the consensus of popular belief of some here that there is no consequence for sin, and no reward for faith,
How you can read anything here and say something like that is beyond me.
: larry2 Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 20:23:32
Quoting Mere Nick - It's the "eternity of pain and suffering" bit. Only in Christ is there eternal life.
Response - I have no argument with you, but according to the scripture below Satan is tormented day and night for ever and ever; is he in Christ? No, I would say not, so is there the possibility there is eternal conscience existence in the second death or lake of fire?
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
God bless you in Jesus' name - larry2
Keep in mind that Satan is not human. A little later John tells of the lost being tossed and it is the second death. Jesus told us to fear him who can destroy both body and soul.
Do not take anything I say (and I'm saying that you are) as if I'm saying croaking outside the grace of Christ is not a terrible tragedy. It is. However, it appears the scripture do teach an eternal punishment but not an eternal punishing. Either way, hell is to be avoided.
Previous quote by larry2 - Dear BigDog, I reckon you're shot down here even though you presented an honest opinion of things to come upon men, but because of the consensus of popular belief of some here that there is no consequence for sin, and no reward for faith.
Quoting Mere Nick - How you can read anything here and say something like that is beyond me.
Response - Maybe I don't understand your reply to what I have said. I was addressing the negative comments to his thread, and not restricting what I said strictly to what was said in replies here. I believe his thread was a good post.
In Jesus' name - larry2
: larry2 Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 22:35:11
Previous quote by larry2 - Dear BigDog, I reckon you're shot down here even though you presented an honest opinion of things to come upon men, but because of the consensus of popular belief of some here that there is no consequence for sin, and no reward for faith.
Quoting Mere Nick - How you can read anything here and say something like that is beyond me.
Response - Maybe I don't understand your reply to what I have said. I was addressing the negative comments to his thread, and not restricting what I said strictly to what was said in replies here. I believe his thread was a good post.
In Jesus' name - larry2
It was a good post about a terrible accident. OneLung had an observation and I showed him evidence that others look to the scriptures and wonder about the same thing he does. If you disagree with me about something, for example, I don't call that being negative but offering your observations of the available data. If you disagree with me by calling me a blithering idiot or something, then you would be getting a bit negative.
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 19:11:23
Show me where "God" called King David and murder !
I"VE GOT IT... Thinking along the same lines as you... URIAH killed himself. He committed suicide! Afterall, He joined the ARMY to serve King David, and he is the one who did not sleep with Bathsheba while home on leave, thus getting himself shipped right to the front of the line, a certain death.
Yes, if the crow flies upside down, and we follow your line of reasoning.... Uriah committed suicide.
How is that for "Personal interpretation"?
Quoting Mere Nick - Jesus told us to fear him who can destroy both body and soul.
Response - I see what you objected to now about Satan - First of all I do not believe he is human either, but I was trying to make a point; possibly a bad one - I give completely up and will delete that post. There is also a spirit of man
In Jesus' name _ larry2
: chosenone Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 18:50:30
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 18:04:19
: kensington Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 18:02:10
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 17:43:55
: sopranette Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 17:30:55
David was most certainly a murderer, and the bible says so. Read 2 Samuel 12:9-12.
love,
sopranette
David sent Uriah to war. David didn't slay Uriah with the sword literally. So the statement in II Samuel 12:9 is a figurative statement.
The word - "Killed" in II Samuel 12:9 is the Hebrew word - "nakah" , which means - "cause". The cause was, that he sent him to war.
If it had been the Hebrew word - "muth", it would be murder. But it is not !
David did kill him, or had him killed. That is murder... and in this day and age you can get the death penalty for it. He used his position as King to send Uriah to a "CERTAIN" death because he did not sleep with Bathsheba to take the blame for the baby. God required and eye for an eye and took the life of his child. David committed murder.
That was because of his adultery , not murder !
Adultery and murder, both just as terrible as each other.
yes, both are terrible.
But King David only committed adultery, not murder. He sent Uriah to war, because Uriah was a soldier. Yes, King David sent Uriah into a heated battle. Yes, Uriah died. Yes, King David sent him to war, as King, hoping that in this heated battle that Uriah would die, to cover up his adultery. This is why King David told Uriah to go unto his wife before going to battle.
But not all soldiers die in battle. In this case King David wanted Uriah to be killed in battle. But that is not murder !
1. David was King
2. Uriah was a soldier
3. David sent soldiers to battle all of the time
4. Yes, there was adultery
5. Uriah died in Battle by the sword of the children of Ammon
6. God sent Nathan to tell King David that he was responsible for his death to cover up his adultery.
7. God caused King David's son to die because of this adultery, because he gave reason for the enemy of God , which is equal to cause God to look like a liar, and a unrighteous God. God was the cause for King David's son dying. Does this make God a murderer ? Of course not, right ? "The Lord struck the child" "and he died"
If you read from II Samuel 12:1 you get a better picture of how God compared the death of Uriah to King David. God sent Nathan and Nathan said unto David. "There were two men in one city ; the one rich , and the other poor. The rich man had exceeding many flocks and herds. But the poor man had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought and nourished up : and it grew up together with him, and with his children ; it did eat of his own meat, and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter. And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was to come unto him; but took the poor man's lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him. And David's anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, As the Lord liveth, the man that hath done this thing shall surely die : And he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity. And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, I anointed thee King over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul; And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things. Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the Lord to do evil in his sight ? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.
Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house <STOP>
This explanation by Nathan whom God sent unto David is a story of "how" God saw all of this unfold. Uriah was the ewe that was slain, and killed. God is reminding David that everything he has is because of God . David had no pity. No shame. No thought upon how this was wrong.
God took the wives of King David and gave them unto his neighbour and they shall lie with his wives. The waring of the sword shall remain upon his house. And the Lord God killed the child born into adultery .
David's punishment was "equal" to his evil.
If King David is a murderer, then so is the Lord God who killed the child born in adultery !
: Nevertheless Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 19:42:17
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 19:11:23
Show me where "God" called King David and murder !
They already have, but you won't listen. Now, how about Paul?
You are the one who said that Paul was a murderer. Prove it !
: Mystery Man Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 04:51:26
: Nevertheless Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 19:42:17
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 19:11:23
Show me where "God" called King David and murder !
They already have, but you won't listen. Now, how about Paul?
You are the one who said that Paul was a murderer. Prove it !
Oh... this just gets better all the time... I'll just retire to the peanut section for a while and relax... ::eatingpopcorn:
Mysteryman said: But King David only committed adultery, not murder. He sent Uriah to war, because Uriah was a soldier. Yes, King David sent Uriah into a heated battle. Yes, Uriah died. Yes, King David sent him to war, as King, hoping that in this heated battle that Uriah would die, to cover up his adultery. This is why King David told Uriah to go unto his wife before going to battle.
But not all soldiers die in battle. In this case King David wanted Uriah to be killed in battle. But that is not murder !
If this is your version of David, Uriah and Bathsheba.... that would make the Prophet Nathan a liar. I just doubt that is the case. I wonder if you have noticed that NO ONE has been backing up your points on this? You may want to take a peek around you there where the wind is blowing and see that you are alone in this position... and that is due to the fact that it's just not so.
Is II Samuel NOT in your Bible? Or are you just not allowed to read it? IN order for your scenario to be correct, Nathan (a prophet of God) would have to have been wrong. That being the case, he would not have been a Prophet... for one thing we do know, Prophets don't miss. He said flatly that David "Killed" Uriah. So... either David did kill Uriah, making him a murderer, or Nathan was not a Prophet.
And that is just not the way it happened in the REAL Bible...
If MM were correct, that would have made Nathan not just a false prophet and a liar, but also a false witness. To have accused a king of murder when it just wasn't true would have been a grave offence.
Paul admitted himself he was a blasphemer and a murderer of Christians. Acts 26:10. Certainly Paul was deathly ill with sin, and yet was hand picked by God for conversion.
love,
sopranette
: kensington Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 07:51:15
Mysteryman said: But King David only committed adultery, not murder. He sent Uriah to war, because Uriah was a soldier. Yes, King David sent Uriah into a heated battle. Yes, Uriah died. Yes, King David sent him to war, as King, hoping that in this heated battle that Uriah would die, to cover up his adultery. This is why King David told Uriah to go unto his wife before going to battle.
But not all soldiers die in battle. In this case King David wanted Uriah to be killed in battle. But that is not murder !
If this is your version of David, Uriah and Bathsheba.... that would make the Prophet Nathan a liar. I just doubt that is the case. I wonder if you have noticed that NO ONE has been backing up your points on this? You may want to take a peek around you there where the wind is blowing and see that you are alone in this position... and that is due to the fact that it's just not so.
Is II Samuel NOT in your Bible? Or are you just not allowed to read it? IN order for your scenario to be correct, Nathan (a prophet of God) would have to have been wrong. That being the case, he would not have been a Prophet... for one thing we do know, Prophets don't miss. He said flatly that David "Killed" Uriah. So... either David did kill Uriah, making him a murderer, or Nathan was not a Prophet.
And that is just not the way it happened in the REAL Bible...
You may argue your point all you like. Sometimes it makes for a good discussion. But as of lately the discussion has soured.
Your making assumptions based upon your carnal thinking. Reading the Word of God is not suppose to be private interpretation. But you as well as others assume that God won't mind if you go right ahead and give your own private interpretations. Well, rest assured, he does mind if you do such a thing ! He is watching and collecting data.
Nathan was a prophet of God, and yes, Nathan did say that David killed Uriah and with the sword, which occured in battle with the children of Ammon.
But the word "Killed" is not a Hebrew word for murder ! And the punishment put upon David is equal to the evil that he did.
The word - "Killed" in this verse (II Samuel 12:9) is the Hebrew word - "nakah" and is never used to indicate murder !
According to the law of God a murderer is to be put to death - Period ! No if's , ands , or buts about it. Read Numbers 35:17 and Numbers 35:31
In Numbers 35:27 the word "kill" is the Hebrew word - "ratsach" and it means - "Murder"
Deut. 5:17 < One of the ten commandments - "Thou shall not kill" -- is this same Hebrew word "ratsach" - to murder.
If King David was a murderer, God would have had to put King David to death !
: sopranette Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 08:10:34
If MM were correct, that would have made Nathan not just a false prophet and a liar, but also a false witness. To have accused a king of murder when it just wasn't true would have been a grave offence.
Paul admitted himself he was a blasphemer and a murderer of Christians. Acts 26:10. Certainly Paul was deathly ill with sin, and yet was hand picked by God for conversion.
love,
sopranette
The only thing that is false here are you people who make such eroneous comments.
Paul never admitted to murdering anyone. And especially in Acts 26:10 !
: kensington Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 07:46:28
: Mystery Man Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 04:51:26
: Nevertheless Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 19:42:17
: Mystery Man Fri Feb 20, 2009 - 19:11:23
Show me where "God" called King David and murder !
They already have, but you won't listen. Now, how about Paul?
You are the one who said that Paul was a murderer. Prove it !
Oh... this just gets better all the time... I'll just retire to the peanut section for a while and relax... ::eatingpopcorn:
Amen!
Acts 26:10
Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.
And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.
You really have lost any shred of credibility you may have had on this forum, MM. And your comments on this thread have proven why it's so easy to dismiss anything you have to say on any of the subjects posted here. It was funny, now it's just sad, really. A foolish man is counted wise when he does not speak. ::frown:: You are dismissed.
love,
sopranette
One of the quotes in my signature is very applicable to this thread. Which one I will leave open to private interpretation . . .
: sopranette Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 08:44:33
Acts 26:10
Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.
And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.
I don't know too much about this stuff, but reading Acts 26:10, I don't think it's content would be allowed in as evidence in a modern day murder trial. The verse states that he "shut them up" and trash talked them after they were put to death, but it doesn't state that he actually killed anyone with his own hand.
Just an observation...
: sopranette Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 08:44:33
Acts 26:10
Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.
And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.
You really have lost any shred of credibility you may have had on this forum, MM. And your comments on this thread have proven why it's so easy to dismiss anything you have to say on any of the subjects posted here. It was funny, now it's just sad, really. A foolish man is counted wise when he does not speak. ::frown:: You are dismissed.
love,
sopranette
Your comments are not sane, nor are they rational.
Saul put them in Jail. He consented unto their death. But the law and chief priests put them to death , not Saul ! Saul persecuted the church, but he Saul didn't kill anyone !
: Mystery Man Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 08:55:25
rational.
You don't know the meaning of the word.
love,
sopranette
: OneLung Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 08:54:44
: sopranette Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 08:44:33
Acts 26:10
Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.
And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.
I don't know too much about this stuff, but reading Acts 26:10, I don't think it's content would be allowed in as evidence in a modern day murder trial. The verse states that he "shut them up" and trash talked them after they were put to death, but it doesn't state that he actually killed anyone with his own hand.
Just an observation...
Paul was given a rank that allowed him to not only imprison Christians, but also have them put to death. When someone falsely accused one of blasphemy, a crime punishable by death at that time, that is murder in God's eyes.
love,
sopranette
: sopranette Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 08:59:26
: Mystery Man Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 08:55:25
rational.
You don't know the meaning of the word.
love,
sopranette
A rational person reads what written. Which you constantly fail to do !
In Acts 26 Saul was under the law of the time. He was acting like one our our policeman. He brought them to jail. And that is where it ends, other than his comments. Saul had no authority to put anyone to death. But the law did. The chief priests had the authority to put them to death, which they did.
Saul consented unto their death, and he punished christians often and persecuted them. But he never, ever killed one of them !
Humility is a hard pill to swallow. But it is better to swallow it now , rather than later before the judgement seat.
: sopranette Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 09:02:25
: OneLung Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 08:54:44
: sopranette Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 08:44:33
Acts 26:10
Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.
And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.
I don't know too much about this stuff, but reading Acts 26:10, I don't think it's content would be allowed in as evidence in a modern day murder trial. The verse states that he "shut them up" and trash talked them after they were put to death, but it doesn't state that he actually killed anyone with his own hand.
Just an observation...
Paul was given a rank that allowed him to not only imprison Christians, but also have them put to death. When someone falsely accused one of blasphemy, a crime punishable by death at that time, that is murder in God's eyes.
love,
sopranette
Wow, you have quit the imagination. Everything you just said is not true ! And we know you didn't read it from the bible. You just made it up as you go along in your imagination. Which btw will get you nowhere.
Truth then eludes you, because you would rather believe what you dream up , instead of what is written.
It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in an argument.
love,
sopranette
: sopranette Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 09:02:25
: OneLung Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 08:54:44
: sopranette Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 08:44:33
Acts 26:10
Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.
And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.
I don't know too much about this stuff, but reading Acts 26:10, I don't think it's content would be allowed in as evidence in a modern day murder trial. The verse states that he "shut them up" and trash talked them after they were put to death, but it doesn't state that he actually killed anyone with his own hand.
Just an observation...
Paul was given a rank that allowed him to not only imprison Christians, but also have them put to death. When someone falsely accused one of blasphemy, a crime punishable by death at that time, that is murder in God's eyes.
love,
sopranette
OK, if he was responsible for the deaths because he falsely accused them of a capitol crime, then that would make him a murderer. I can see that.
: sopranette Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 09:10:19
It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in an argument.
love,
sopranette
So that was your goal, to defeat me ? Sad !
This conversation with "you" has ran its course. You need to read the word with a rational mind. Not a mind that is out of control, and full of imaginations that are irrational.
: OneLung Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 09:12:18
: sopranette Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 09:02:25
: OneLung Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 08:54:44
: sopranette Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 08:44:33
Acts 26:10
Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.
And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.
I don't know too much about this stuff, but reading Acts 26:10, I don't think it's content would be allowed in as evidence in a modern day murder trial. The verse states that he "shut them up" and trash talked them after they were put to death, but it doesn't state that he actually killed anyone with his own hand.
Just an observation...
Paul was given a rank that allowed him to not only imprison Christians, but also have them put to death. When someone falsely accused one of blasphemy, a crime punishable by death at that time, that is murder in God's eyes.
love,
sopranette
OK, if he was responsible for the deaths because he falsely accused them of a capitol crime, then that would make him a murderer. I can see that.
What capitol crime ? Where do we read that Saul falsely accused anyone ? It was Saul who wanted the christians to "blaspheme" their beliefs - Verse 11 -- Not the other way around !
: Mystery Man Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 09:14:02
: sopranette Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 09:10:19
It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in an argument.
love,
sopranette
This conversation with "you" has ran its course. You need to read the word with a rational mind. Not a mind that is out of control, and full of imaginations that are irrational.
When someone uses the phrase, "you need to..." in a debate, it means that person is angry and has run out of options. It's an attempt to regain control. FYI.
love,
sopranette
Reading both verses, it kind of sounds like he was attempting to entrap them into committing blashpheme so he could accuse them. Tactic doesn't nullify intent.
: OneLung Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 09:23:02
Reading both verses, it kind of sounds like he was attempting to entrap them into committing blashpheme so he could accuse them. Tactic doesn't nullify intent.
Saul already had the authority to persecute them. He didn't have to falsely accuse them. He had authority to put them in jail for them saying they were a christian. The authority of Saul was limited to just putting them in jail, along with persecuting them. From that point the law , which btw included the chief priests, could put them to death without any hearing or trial. We tend to think with our modern day minds when we read the Word. Some might think that Saul had to go in and falsely accuse them. Which is not true. You don't read about any hearing or trial. So Saul didn't have to say one thing.
And verse 11 is after verse 10 when they are already killed .
: Mystery Man Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 09:28:51
: OneLung Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 09:23:02
Reading both verses, it kind of sounds like he was attempting to entrap them into committing blashpheme so he could accuse them. Tactic doesn't nullify intent.
Saul already had the authority to persecute them. He didn't have to falsely accuse them. He had authority to put them in jail for them saying they were a christian. The authority of Saul was limited to just putting them in jail, along with persecuting them. From that point the law , which btw included the chief priests, could put them to death without any hearing or trial. We tend to think with our modern day minds when we read the Word. Some might think that Saul had to go in and falsely accuse them. Which is not true. You don't read about any hearing or trial. So Saul didn't have to say one thing.
And verse 11 is after verse 10 when they are already killed .
So, if I understand you, you are saying that by the law then, he committed no crime, he was just doing his job. And to say that he was a murderer in "Gods eyes" is simply a modern day assumption and personal opinion.
Onelung
In verse 11 Saul was trying to get them to blaspheme their beliefs. Which means, he wanted them to denounce their beliefs. Which they would not.
: Mystery Man Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 09:38:29
Onelung
In verse 11 Saul was trying to get them to blaspheme their beliefs. Which means, he wanted them to denounce their beliefs. Which they would not.
It seems to me that you are looking at it from a historical perspective and Sophie is looking at it from a moral perspective, which could mean that both of you are correct.
: OneLung Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 09:37:17
: Mystery Man Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 09:28:51
: OneLung Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 09:23:02
Reading both verses, it kind of sounds like he was attempting to entrap them into committing blashpheme so he could accuse them. Tactic doesn't nullify intent.
Saul already had the authority to persecute them. He didn't have to falsely accuse them. He had authority to put them in jail for them saying they were a christian. The authority of Saul was limited to just putting them in jail, along with persecuting them. From that point the law , which btw included the chief priests, could put them to death without any hearing or trial. We tend to think with our modern day minds when we read the Word. Some might think that Saul had to go in and falsely accuse them. Which is not true. You don't read about any hearing or trial. So Saul didn't have to say one thing.
And verse 11 is after verse 10 when they are already killed .
So, if I understand you, you are saying that by the law then, he committed no crime, he was just doing his job. And to say that he was a murderer in "Gods eyes" is simply a modern day assumption and personal opinion.
He was given authority by the chief priest to put them in jail. Which he did.
There is no murder here. It would be no different than a police officer arresting someone, and they being put to death according to the law. Not in our day, but then in this day. There was no trial, no hearing. And there was no murder. Saul didn't killl anyone. Neither did King David.
Saul was a Jew, and he knew the law of the Jews. He also knew if he was a murderer, he could and should be put to death according to the law of the Jews. I know of nowhere in scripture that Saul , being a Jew broke the law of God. He was a Jew, circumcised the eighth day.
: OneLung Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 09:42:20
: Mystery Man Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 09:38:29
Onelung
In verse 11 Saul was trying to get them to blaspheme their beliefs. Which means, he wanted them to denounce their beliefs. Which they would not.
[/quote
It seems to me that you are looking at it from a historical perspective and Sophie is looking at it from a moral perspective, which could mean that both of you are correct.
Impossible
: Mystery Man Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 09:45:13
: OneLung Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 09:42:20
: Mystery Man Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 09:38:29
Onelung
In verse 11 Saul was trying to get them to blaspheme their beliefs. Which means, he wanted them to denounce their beliefs. Which they would not.
[/quote
It seems to me that you are looking at it from a historical perspective and Sophie is looking at it from a moral perspective, which could mean that both of you are correct.
Impossible
I never was very good at mediation, which is why I chose forensics. rofl
: OneLung Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 09:48:47
: Mystery Man Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 09:45:13
: OneLung Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 09:42:20
: Mystery Man Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 09:38:29
Onelung
In verse 11 Saul was trying to get them to blaspheme their beliefs. Which means, he wanted them to denounce their beliefs. Which they would not.
[/quote
It seems to me that you are looking at it from a historical perspective and Sophie is looking at it from a moral perspective, which could mean that both of you are correct.
Impossible
I never was very good at mediation, which is why I choose forensics. rofl
LOL , a good choice , especially if you happy with it. :))
: OneLung Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 08:54:44
: sopranette Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 08:44:33
Acts 26:10
Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.
And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.
I don't know too much about this stuff, but reading Acts 26:10, I don't think it's content would be allowed in as evidence in a modern day murder trial. The verse states that he "shut them up" and trash talked them after they were put to death, but it doesn't state that he actually killed anyone with his own hand.
Just an observation...
He gave evidence against them that they would be killed. Same thing... the blood is on his hands.
: sopranette Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 09:10:19
It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in an argument.
love,
sopranette
No... but it's entertaining to debate them and watch them get all spun up and sinking down into the false teaching. It's so much easier to reveal the lack of truth they carry.
I thought I would add somethig to this conversation.
When Jesus was put in prison. Pilate did an investigation and found Jesus not guilty of any wrong doing. Pilate asked the Jews what he should do with this man Jesus. The Jews yelled back crucify him, crucify him.
We also read of the disciples after the death of Jesus, go into hiding because of the fear of the Jews. Not fear of the Romans, but fear of the Jews. The Jews had become a part of the law of the land, and they had a voice and some were put into authority. Such was the case with Saul.
Even on the day of pentecost, Peter stood up and declared - "this same Jesus whom you have crucified". What Peter was saying, that the Jews were held accountable for the death of Jesus. They were a voice within the authority of Rome.
Saul had authority to put christians who were followers of Jesus into prison. This autority was given to him at this time when the Jews were in authority under and within the law of that time.
One who is in authority is doing the law of the land. And even though they had this authority, they were still Jews. They kept the customs, even after the death of Jesus, they could not work on a sabbath day. So the two Mary's came on the first day of the week with spices which is after the seventh day sabbath.
One thing they would not go against, was the customs according to the law. Murder is one of the ten commandments as I pointed out in a previous post. Saul would never commit murder, because he knew the Law of God about murder. He also knew the customs of the Jews and would not break any of those customs.
So one thing we can count on, is that Saul would not murder anyone. Those who called themselves Christians , were in his eyes, heritics, and breakers of the law of the land. So with authority he put them in prison. The chief priests had them put to death. Which is no different then when they put Jesus to death. Even though Pilate found him inoccent of any wrong doing, just the Jews crying out crucify him numerous times, was all it took to have him crucified. This shows you the influence and authority of the law of the land that the Jews have become accustomed too.
: kensington Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 10:19:48
: sopranette Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 09:10:19
It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in an argument.
love,
sopranette
No... but it's entertaining to debate them and watch them get all spun up and sinking down into the false teaching. It's so much easier to reveal the lack of truth they carry.
You are so correct , you have no idea how much so.
I thought I would add somethig to this conversation.
I'm sorry... but that did not "add" anything to this conversation. Maybe try again??
: kensington Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 10:19:48
: sopranette Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 09:10:19
It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in an argument.
love,
sopranette
No... but it's entertaining to debate them and watch them get all spun up and sinking down into the false teaching. It's so much easier to reveal the lack of truth they carry.
I've gotta say, this has been the easiest debate I have participated in this forum to date. Now let's let him grab at straws.
love,
sopranette
: kensington Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 10:27:26
I thought I would add somethig to this conversation.
I'm sorry... but that did not "add" anything to this conversation. Maybe try again??
Oh, straw grab and fail. Never mind.
love,
sopranette
After reading this thread a few times...I have a question...
If Paul or David did commit murder....why did the law not punish them?
: kensington Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 10:27:26
I thought I would add somethig to this conversation.
I'm sorry... but that did not "add" anything to this conversation. Maybe try again??
You took my cd in broad daylight and you scratched it!
: Gary Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 12:02:42
: kensington Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 10:27:26
I thought I would add somethig to this conversation.
I'm sorry... but that did not "add" anything to this conversation. Maybe try again??
You took my cd in broad daylight and you scratched it!
Who are you calling a broad??
Hmmm.... a thought comes to mind...
: Gary Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 12:02:42
: kensington Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 10:27:26
I thought I would add somethig to this conversation.
I'm sorry... but that did not "add" anything to this conversation. Maybe try again??
You took my cd in broad daylight and you scratched it!
Yeah.... but I am still
NOT a thief, cause you left it out where I could get at it! So there! ::disco::
: grace Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 11:50:46
After reading this thread a few times...I have a question...
If Paul or David did commit murder....why did the law not punish them?
He was the Law.. David was the King. He was the one who handed down the justice. That is why Nathan went to him, presented the scenario of the Lamb and allowed David to speak what he would do if they brought the man to him.. Nathan said "Thou art the man"... God punished David.
In Paul's case... the LAW was who was murdering Christians.. the Law was who had crucified Jesus, the Law was corrupt. Paul came face to face with grace on the road to Damascus. His sins were punished by the law... Jesus was put to death for him.
I'm sure there have been many sinners who repented of sin before God who never faced the judgment of the Law for their crimes.
According to Mysterymans' logic... If I set a child out in the street to be hit by a truck, I am not guilty of murder when the child is hit and killed. Even though, I knew when I did it, the child would be killed.
The truck killed the child. ::frown::
But... if you read Psalm 51 where David repented.. vs 14, he clearly repents of being gulity of someone's blood. He repents of murder. You are guilty of blood, when you murder. As David did.
Psalm 51(King James Version)
1Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
2Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
3For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
4Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
6Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
7Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
9Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
10Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
12Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
13Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
14Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
15O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
16For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
18Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.
19Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.
: kensington Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 03:23:12
According to Mysterymans' logic... If I set a child out in the street to be hit by a truck, I am not guilty of murder when the child is hit and killed. Even though, I knew when I did it, the child would be killed.
The truck killed the child. ::frown::
But... if you read Psalm 51 where David repented.. vs 14, he clearly repents of being gulity of someone's blood. He repents of murder. You are guilty of blood, when you murder. As David did.
Psalm 51(King James Version)
1Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
2Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
3For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
4Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
6Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
7Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
9Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
10Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
12Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
13Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
14Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
15O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
16For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
18Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.
19Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.
I never drew a scenerio of someone who murders and then claim it is not murder.
You can not draw up a false premise and make such false claims. It would never hold up in a court of law.
King David was a King , with authority, as was Saul. One in authority has every right to use their authority. Even if it is used with a false pretense , it is the false pretense that is the problem that God dealt with in both cases.
God punished King David, but he did not punish him for murder. That would have resulted in him being put to death.
God punished King David for adultery and his evil way of how he used Uriah . Uriah was a solder, and Uriah knew his responsiblity of going to war. Sometimes you do not come back alive. Some however do come back alive. Even King David sending Uriah to war, was not a guarentee that Uriah would die. A murderer kills his victum with the intent to personnaly kill a person by their own act and deed of the murder. King David sent Uriah to war. A soldier in his army. King David did this all of the time. This is the authority that he had. The same with Saul, he had authority to put followers of the way into prison.
What you must remember are two things. One - these two acts were done under authority of the law of the land and law of King David. Even though authority can blind one according to the use of the law, none the less, the law makes this act lawful. King David lawfully had every right to send Uriah to war. King David had no right to commit adultery with his wife. This God punished King David for, he was punished for his adultery. How he ploted to have Uriah killed, was why God punished King David with many wars and no peace from war after this act. < This was the punishment for his wrong. If it was for murder, God would have killed King David.
God killed the child born in the adultery. And as I asked before, does this make God a murderer ? No , of course not. But God is a righteous judge. And God didn't punish King David for murder !~
No murderer hath any eternal life abiding in them. That is what the Word of God says, and that is what the Word of God means !
Whoever speaks against the Word of God will be held accountable !
: kensington Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 03:23:12
According to Mysterymans' logic... If I set a child out in the street to be hit by a truck, I am not guilty of murder when the child is hit and killed. Even though, I knew when I did it, the child would be killed.
The truck killed the child. ::frown::
But... if you read Psalm 51 where David repented.. vs 14, he clearly repents of being gulity of someone's blood. He repents of murder. You are guilty of blood, when you murder. As David did.
Psalm 51(King James Version)
1Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
2Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
3For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
4Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
6Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
7Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
9Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
10Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
12Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
13Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
14Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
15O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
16For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
18Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.
19Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.
Not once is the act of murder mentioned !
Yet, you see something that is not there.
That is because you want something more than what the Word of God offers. A self willed and self righteous person does this. You have made yourself greater than God himself. You are rewritting the Word, because you feel that God made a mistake and thus you give your rendition and declaration. This is very devilish !
: kensington Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 03:23:12
According to Mysterymans' logic... If I set a child out in the street to be hit by a truck, I am not guilty of murder when the child is hit and killed. Even though, I knew when I did it, the child would be killed.
The truck killed the child. ::frown::
But... if you read Psalm 51 where David repented.. vs 14, he clearly repents of being gulity of someone's blood. He repents of murder. You are guilty of blood, when you murder. As David did.
Psalm 51(King James Version)
1Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
2Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
3For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
4Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
6Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
7Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
9Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
10Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
12Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
13Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
14Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
15O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
16For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
18Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.
19Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.
King David had authority. Your little untruthful story above, sets one who has no authority to put a child in the middle of the street with the intent to be killed. The key here is - "Authority"
King David sent a soldier to war. By his authority , as King, sending a soldier to war is not murder ! Evil intent yes, but murder - NO !
: sopranette Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 11:07:07
: kensington Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 10:19:48
: sopranette Sat Feb 21, 2009 - 09:10:19
It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in an argument.
love,
sopranette
No... but it's entertaining to debate them and watch them get all spun up and sinking down into the false teaching. It's so much easier to reveal the lack of truth they carry.
I've gotta say, this has been the easiest debate I have participated in this forum to date. Now let's let him grab at straws.
love,
sopranette
Did you get a blue ribbon or a trophy ?
Why yes, yes I did get a trophy.
love,
sopranette
: Mystery Man Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 05:32:16
: kensington Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 03:23:12
According to Mysterymans' logic... If I set a child out in the street to be hit by a truck, I am not guilty of murder when the child is hit and killed. Even though, I knew when I did it, the child would be killed.
The truck killed the child. ::frown::
But... if you read Psalm 51 where David repented.. vs 14, he clearly repents of being gulity of someone's blood. He repents of murder. You are guilty of blood, when you murder. As David did.
Psalm 51(King James Version)
1Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
2Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
3For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
4Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
6Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
7Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
9Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
10Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
12Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
13Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
14Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
15O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
16For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
18Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.
19Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.
King David had authority. Your little untruthful story above, sets one who has no authority to put a child in the middle of the street with the intent to be killed. The key here is - "Authority"
King David sent a soldier to war. By his authority , as King, sending a soldier to war is not murder ! Evil intent yes, but murder - NO !
You are lost... King David did not send him to war, He sent him to be killed. There in lies the difference. A difference you evidently refuse to see, or cannot see. He didn't just send him to war, he sent him to the front lines where he KNEW he would be killed.
"Now in the morning David wrote a letter to Joab, and sent it by the hand of Uriah, He had written in the letter, saying
"Place Uriah in the front line of the fiercest battle and draw away from him (leave him there alone), so that he may be struck down and die." {II Samuel 11:14-15}
It was premeditated murder on the part of David, by way of war. He used the weapons of the enemy to kill Uriah, and even wrote in a letter that it was what was to happen.
David was guilty of the Law... "Thou Shall not kill"... He did kill Uriah, and it was premeditated also.
He repented of "bloodguiltiness" before the LORD, admitting he was guilty of shedding innocent blood. He was guilty of the death of Uriah. Nathan told him he was, and he repented of it... I'm sorry you can't see that. Sometimes, dense is just dense.
: kensington Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 10:27:47
: Mystery Man Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 05:32:16
: kensington Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 03:23:12
According to Mysterymans' logic... If I set a child out in the street to be hit by a truck, I am not guilty of murder when the child is hit and killed. Even though, I knew when I did it, the child would be killed.
The truck killed the child. ::frown::
But... if you read Psalm 51 where David repented.. vs 14, he clearly repents of being gulity of someone's blood. He repents of murder. You are guilty of blood, when you murder. As David did.
Psalm 51(King James Version)
1Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
2Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
3For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
4Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
6Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
7Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
9Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
10Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
12Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
13Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
14Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
15O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
16For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
18Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.
19Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.
King David had authority. Your little untruthful story above, sets one who has no authority to put a child in the middle of the street with the intent to be killed. The key here is - "Authority"
King David sent a soldier to war. By his authority , as King, sending a soldier to war is not murder ! Evil intent yes, but murder - NO !
You are lost... King David did not send him to war, He sent him to be killed. There in lies the difference. A difference you evidently refuse to see, or cannot see. He didn't just send him to war, he sent him to the front lines where he KNEW he would be killed.
"Now in the morning David wrote a letter to Joab, and sent it by the hand of Uriah, He had written in the letter, saying "Place Uriah in the front line of the fiercest battle and draw away from him (leave him there alone), so that he may be struck down and die." {II Samuel 11:14-15}
It was premeditated murder on the part of David, by way of war. He used the weapons of the enemy to kill Uriah, and even wrote in a letter that it was what was to happen.
David was guilty of the Law... "Thou Shall not kill"... He did kill Uriah, and it was premeditated also.
He repented of "bloodguiltiness" before the LORD, admitting he was guilty of shedding innocent blood. He was guilty of the death of Uriah. Nathan told him he was, and he repented of it... I'm sorry you can't see that. Sometimes, dense is just dense.
Show me from the Word, where King David "Knew" Uriah would die ! If you can't , then you are not telling the truth !
I am new to this forum but am extremely interested in reading through it and adding my comments. Mystery Man raises a good question and I am glad to see that there are members here that are not afraid to ask tough questions. I will be one of them too.
Referencing the OT and whether people that lived then were doomed, I assume because they did not even have the opportunity to know Jesus. I, too, am curious about this. First, why did God decide to bring Jesus into the world at that particular time? Was this all part of His master plan? What, then, was His plan up until that point with regard to the souls of those who lived before His coming. Was His decision based on a change of plans, perhaps? What, then does this suggest?
Jesus came to fulfill the Law, that the people in the OT were living under. Jesus is the bridge between the Law and the Father. The people in the OT were living under a different covenent, but those who called out to the Father were saved.
love,
sopranette
Mystery man... I posted it, but you refuse to see the truth when you read it.
You need to read the whole story, take off the blinders and receive the truth. The whole story speaks that David not only knew that Uriah would be killed, but that he was counting on it. That is the reason he sent him to the front, to be killed.
Don't you own a Bible?
I gave you the reference that says David knew he was sending him to his death, and even told Joab, to make sure he was put where he would die. Read the WORD. Stop playing this silly game and read the word.
: kensington Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 14:29:30
Mystery man... I posted it, but you refuse to see the truth when you read it.
You need to read the whole story, take off the blinders and receive the truth. The whole story speaks that David not only knew that Uriah would be killed, but that he was counting on it. That is the reason he sent him to the front, to be killed.
Don't you own a Bible?
I gave you the reference that says David knew he was sending him to his death, and even told Joab, to make sure he was put where he would die. Read the WORD. Stop playing this silly game and read the word.
No you didn't ! Show me the scriptures or scripture that shows us that King David "Knew" that Uriah would die. And if you can't, then you do not speak the truth.
: Mystery Man Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 17:11:24
: kensington Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 14:29:30
Mystery man... I posted it, but you refuse to see the truth when you read it.
You need to read the whole story, take off the blinders and receive the truth. The whole story speaks that David not only knew that Uriah would be killed, but that he was counting on it. That is the reason he sent him to the front, to be killed?
Don't you own a Bible?
I gave you the reference that says David knew he was sending him to his death, and even told Joab, to make sure he was put where he would die. Read the WORD. Stop playing this silly game and read the word.
No you didn't ! Show me the scriptures or scripture that shows us that King David "Knew" that Uriah would die. And if you can't, then you do not speak the truth.
II Samuel 11:15
And he wrote in the letter, saying, Set ye Uriah in the forefront of the hottest battle, and retire ye from him,
that he may be smitten and die.
C'mon now, really.
love,
sopranette
II Samuel 11:16 - "Joab assigned Uriah unto a place where he knew that valiant men were"
II Samuel 11:24 - "some of the king's servants be dead" < Not all !
How could King David "know" that Uriah would die ?
Uriah was not put with a bunch of weak warriors. He was put with the best of the best, they were valiant men. Men that watch each others back. Men that would die for one another. Protect one another. And not all of them died !
So I ask again, How could King David "know" that Uriah would die ?
Answer: He could not !!
And here is the question that has not been answered. God punished King David for the evil that he did. And God did not punish King David for murder. So how can anyone claim that King David committed murder ?
I am also going to show that the prophet Nathan never said that King David broke the commandment - Thou shalt not kill.
It is because of the different Hebrew words used. When Nathan spoke to King David, and when he used the word "killed" , it is the Hebrew word - "nakah" - to cause one's death. But the commandment that - Thou shalt not kill" is the Hebrew word - "ratsach" - to murder
The prophet Nathan never said that King David murdered Uriah. That is because of the different Hebrew word used in II Samuel 12:9, which is where Nathan spoke to King David. King David was the cause of Uriah's death. King David was not a "ratsach" - murderer !
Many false teachers have gone out into the world and itching ears have believed these false teachers into believing an untruth about King David.
King David was "Not" a murderer !
: Mystery Man Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 17:43:04
And here is the question that has not been answered. God punished King David for the evil that he did. And God did not punish King David for murder. So how can anyone claim that King David committed murder ?
I am also going to show that the prophet Nathan never said that King David broke the commandment - Thou shalt not kill.
It is because of the different Hebrew words used. When Nathan spoke to King David, and when he used the word "killed" , it is the Hebrew word - "nakah" - to cause one's death. But the commandment that - Thou shalt not kill" is the Hebrew word - "ratsach" - to murder
The prophet Nathan never said that King David murdered Uriah. That is because of the different Hebrew word used in II Samuel 12:9, which is where Nathan spoke to King David. King David was the cause of Uriah's death. King David was not a "ratsach" - murderer !
Many false teachers have gone out into the world and itching ears have believed these false teachers into believing an untruth about King David.
King David was "Not" a murderer !
Mysteryman, why is it is hard for you to think that David killed, or murdered Uriah? Killers/murderers are forgiven all the time when they truly repent. To me I cant see that it matters whether the word 'killed' or 'murdered' is used in this case, the fact is that he DELIBERATELY caused the death of a good and faithful man ro cover up his own terrible sin, and to make sure that he wouldnt get into trouble for sleeping with this mans wife and making her pregnant.
Whether he killed or murdered him, he caused his death, and either way he was responsible for his death.
He ordered that he was put in the front of the worst battle, a sure way of causing his death, with the EXPRESS intention of wanting him dead, to get him, (David) out of trouble.
Whether David knew for sure that Uriah would die is irrevelant, he WANTED him dead, and thats is bad enough on its own and he made sure that the chances of him coming back alive were absolutely minimal if not non existant. An appalling thing for anyone to do when he had already betrayed this man by sleeping with his wife.He WAS responsible for this poor mans death whichever way you look at it.
everyone
As a woman I have often wondered if Uriahs wife knew that David had her husband killed, and if she had what she thought about that. I often wondered why she didnt refuse David when he sent for her and had sex with her. Was she actually allowed to refuse, and if she was why didnt she?.
Dont think I would feel very kindly disposed to a man who committed adultery and had my husband killed to cover it up and the last thing I would want to do is to be his wife, king or not.
: OneLung Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 08:33:27
There were about 50 people on that plane. Statistically speaking, by your claims, only about 3 of them will NOT face an eternity of pain and suffering. Sorry, but I just can't get my head wrapped around that belief.
1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
1 Corinthians 1:21
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
: Mere Nick Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 08:53:21
: OneLung Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 08:33:27
There were about 50 people on that plane. Statistically speaking, by your claims, only about 3 of them will NOT face an eternity of pain and suffering. Sorry, but I just can't get my head wrapped around that belief.
You're not alone. I've done some research on it, but you may find this (http://www.edwardfudge.com/JETS_final_end_wicked.pdf) to be a helpful, but brief, explanation of what appears to many to be a more accurate explanation of what happens to those who shuffle off this mortal coil outside the grace of Christ.
It is interesting to hear people say how great a being is who will keep the vast majority of souls in existence for the sole purpose of suffering the conscious, unending torments of damnation throughout all eternity while those few who do make it spend eternity singing songs about how wonderful he is.
God tells us about hell he is not a man that he should lie.
why not read what he says.
(Isaiah 64:24, Matthew 3:12, Matthew 13:42, Matthew 25:41, Matthew 5:29-30, 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9, Jude 7, 2 Peter 2:4, Luke 16:19-31, Mark 9:43-48).
: chosenone Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 22:21:41
: Mystery Man Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 17:43:04
And here is the question that has not been answered. God punished King David for the evil that he did. And God did not punish King David for murder. So how can anyone claim that King David committed murder ?
I am also going to show that the prophet Nathan never said that King David broke the commandment - Thou shalt not kill.
It is because of the different Hebrew words used. When Nathan spoke to King David, and when he used the word "killed" , it is the Hebrew word - "nakah" - to cause one's death. But the commandment that - Thou shalt not kill" is the Hebrew word - "ratsach" - to murder
The prophet Nathan never said that King David murdered Uriah. That is because of the different Hebrew word used in II Samuel 12:9, which is where Nathan spoke to King David. King David was the cause of Uriah's death. King David was not a "ratsach" - murderer !
Many false teachers have gone out into the world and itching ears have believed these false teachers into believing an untruth about King David.
King David was "Not" a murderer !
Mysteryman, why is it is hard for you to think that David killed, or murdered Uriah? Killers/murderers are forgiven all the time when they truly repent. To me I cant see that it matters whether the word 'killed' or 'murdered' is used in this case, the fact is that he DELIBERATELY caused the death of a good and faithful man ro cover up his own terrible sin, and to make sure that he wouldnt get into trouble for sleeping with this mans wife and making her pregnant.
Whether he killed or murdered him, he caused his death, and either way he was responsible for his death.
He ordered that he was put in the front of the worst battle, a sure way of causing his death, with the EXPRESS intention of wanting him dead, to get him, (David) out of trouble.
Whether David knew for sure that Uriah would die is irrevelant, he WANTED him dead, and thats is bad enough on its own and he made sure that the chances of him coming back alive were absolutely minimal if not non existant. An appalling thing for anyone to do when he had already betrayed this man by sleeping with his wife.He WAS responsible for this poor mans death whichever way you look at it.
everyone
As a woman I have often wondered if Uriahs wife knew that David had her husband killed, and if she had what she thought about that. I often wondered why she didnt refuse David when he sent for her and had sex with her. Was she actually allowed to refuse, and if she was why didnt she?.
Dont think I would feel very kindly disposed to a man who committed adultery and had my husband killed to cover it up and the last thing I would want to do is to be his wife, king or not.
Chosenone
As we talk about this subject, we eventually have to come to the place where we ask ourselves -- Do I believe the truth or do I believe a lie. For God wants us to whorship him in Spirit and in truth.
The bottom line or underlying thought within this conversation, is the question - Is murder a forgivable sin ?
Those who say yes, are deceived. The Word tells us that "No murderer" hath any eternal life abiding in them. None. There is no forgiveness for murder.
As I have shown, the Prophet Nathan told King David that he killed Uriah. But the Hebrew word is not the same word that is used for the commandment - Thou shalt not kill
King David did not murder Uriah. He put Uriah in a position, whereby he "might" be killed. In war there is no absolute that one will die in battle. In fact we read that some of the valiant men did not die. While some of them did die, of which Uriah was one.
Chosenone, this is not murder ! Now you need to ask yourself, if murder is a forgivable sin or not. The Word tells us that it is not. In fact, God tells us in His Word that the devil was a murderer from the beginning. He is a liar and a murderer. WE all agree where this liar and murderer is headed, correct ?
IF God did not forgive the devil for being a murderer, why does anyone else think that a murderer is going to be allowed to be forgiven ?
King David was not a murderer. Saul was not a murderer. This forum gives us an opportunity to help others with the truth. Just like you and myself standing up for the truth of who is the head of the household and who is the head of the wife. If you and myself are wrong , we need to change on this subject. If you and myself are correct, others need to change their thinking.
We have this opportunity to share with one another, and present those things from within the Wrod of God that are true. King David did not break the commandment that thou shalt not kill (murder) ! If he did, then God would have put King David to death. God removed Saul as King, but God did not remove David. What David did was wrong and it was evil. And God punished David for this evil. But God did not punish King David for murder, and this is a fact that we must understand.
False teachers and false brethren have gone out into the world to deceive. Some have come to believe these false doctorines. They pass these false doctorines along to others, and others tend to believe them. It is time for the truth. And the truth is, is that no murderer hath any eternal life abiding in them.
God Bless
: cwestra Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 11:42:12
I am new to this forum but am extremely interested in reading through it and adding my comments. Mystery Man raises a good question and I am glad to see that there are members here that are not afraid to ask tough questions. I will be one of them too.
Referencing the OT and whether people that lived then were doomed, I assume because they did not even have the opportunity to know Jesus. I, too, am curious about this. First, why did God decide to bring Jesus into the world at that particular time? Was this all part of His master plan? What, then, was His plan up until that point with regard to the souls of those who lived before His coming. Was His decision based on a change of plans, perhaps? What, then does this suggest?
When is not important. But the fact that God sent his Son into the world so that he could be the saviour of the world. The sins of the world - past, present and future. The greatest sin that is carried upon all of mankind, is the sin of Adam. Our redemption to be saved from death unto life.
We all sin, but our sins do not stop us from eternal life. What God did throug Christ on the cross and his resurrection accomplishe the cleansing me of all my sins and especially the sin of death by the sin of Adam. The only two sins that are not forgivable is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and murder. All of those who lived and died in the OT have been given life, eternal life. God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son. Those in the OT didn't even know that there was going to be a Jesus Christ. The prophets prophesied of a messiah, but those outside of Israel knew nothing whatsoever. God is not a respector of persons. God saved the world, and the only consequence are the two unforgivable sins. If God blots out one's name out of the book of life, then they are headed to the second death, the lake of fire.
God Bless
: Mystery Man Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 04:39:35
: cwestra Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 11:42:12
I am new to this forum but am extremely interested in reading through it and adding my comments. Mystery Man raises a good question and I am glad to see that there are members here that are not afraid to ask tough questions. I will be one of them too.
Referencing the OT and whether people that lived then were doomed, I assume because they did not even have the opportunity to know Jesus. I, too, am curious about this. First, why did God decide to bring Jesus into the world at that particular time? Was this all part of His master plan? What, then, was His plan up until that point with regard to the souls of those who lived before His coming. Was His decision based on a change of plans, perhaps? What, then does this suggest?
When is not important. But the fact that God sent his Son into the world so that he could be the saviour of the world. The sins of the world - past, present and future. The greatest sin that is carried upon all of mankind, is the sin of Adam. Our redemption to be saved from death unto life.
We all sin, but our sins do not stop us from eternal life. What God did throug Christ on the cross and his resurrection accomplishe the cleansing me of all my sins and especially the sin of death by the sin of Adam. The only two sins that are not forgivable is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and murder. All of those who lived and died in the OT have been given life, eternal life. God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son. Those in the OT didn't even know that there was going to be a Jesus Christ. The prophets prophesied of a messiah, but those outside of Israel knew nothing whatsoever. God is not a respector of persons. God saved the world, and the only consequence are the two unforgivable sins. If God blots out one's name out of the book of life, then they are headed to the second death, the lake of fire.
God Bless
I don't believe you will find a single Christian on these forums who will agree with you that David did not commit murder... unless they be an unlearned babe in Christ.
Your doctrine sounds a lot like the Mormon belief in a twisted kind of way.
Bonnie
You have free will to believe as you will. And you have free will to judge, as you have done here in this last post of yours. But the truth is still the truth.
Babes in the word are unskillful in the scriptures. And the blind will lead the blind into a ditch.
And even if I do not find one person to agree with me , that King David did not commit murder. The truth still stands far above anything you claim.
: Mystery Man Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 06:29:28
Bonnie
You have free will to believe as you will. And you have free will to judge, as you have done here in this last post of yours. But the truth is still the truth.
Babes in the word are unskillful in the scriptures. And the blind will lead the blind into a ditch.
And even if I do not find one person to agree with me , that King David did not commit murder. The truth still stands far above anything you claim.
Then where do your beliefs come from? You seem to be the only one who doesn't and won't even consider the truth.
: Bonnie Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 06:44:15
: Mystery Man Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 06:29:28
Bonnie
You have free will to believe as you will. And you have free will to judge, as you have done here in this last post of yours. But the truth is still the truth.
Babes in the word are unskillful in the scriptures. And the blind will lead the blind into a ditch.
And even if I do not find one person to agree with me , that King David did not commit murder. The truth still stands far above anything you claim.
Then where do your beliefs come from? You seem to be the only one who doesn't and won't even consider the truth.
By your comments, you claim to be telling the truth, and thus you have judge your truth to be the right truth. Unfortunatly, your truth is not - "The Truth". Your truth is only true to you and some others who agree with your truth.
The problem Bonnie, is that many do not want the change and accept "The truth". The devil is a murderer from the beginning (John 8:44), and abode not in the truth, and God is going to put him in the Lake of fire forever.
We can not afford to abode in untruth. And we can not afford to believe a lie that a murderer has eternal life abiding in them. The truth is, that no murderer has any eternal life abiding in them - I John 3:15.
If you wish to continue to believe a lie, this is the free will God has given everyone. However, I would not suggest that anyone abode in untruth. Because John 4:24 tells us to worship God in Spirit and in truth.
MM, I don't know where you get your beliefs from. You say a murderer cannot be forgiven but the Bible says otherwise.
You tell of Satan all the time but you fail to realize that he doesn't want forgiveness. There is only one sin that cannot be forgiven and it is blapshemy of the Holy Ghost. This is for those seeking forgiveness. All sin is unforgiveable if it's not repented of. No sin shall enter heaven.
: Mystery Man Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 04:31:34
: chosenone Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 22:21:41
: Mystery Man Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 17:43:04
And here is the question that has not been answered. God punished King David for the evil that he did. And God did not punish King David for murder. So how can anyone claim that King David committed murder ?
I am also going to show that the prophet Nathan never said that King David broke the commandment - Thou shalt not kill.
It is because of the different Hebrew words used. When Nathan spoke to King David, and when he used the word "killed" , it is the Hebrew word - "nakah" - to cause one's death. But the commandment that - Thou shalt not kill" is the Hebrew word - "ratsach" - to murder
The prophet Nathan never said that King David murdered Uriah. That is because of the different Hebrew word used in II Samuel 12:9, which is where Nathan spoke to King David. King David was the cause of Uriah's death. King David was not a "ratsach" - murderer !
Many false teachers have gone out into the world and itching ears have believed these false teachers into believing an untruth about King David.
King David was "Not" a murderer !
Mysteryman, why is it is hard for you to think that David killed, or murdered Uriah? Killers/murderers are forgiven all the time when they truly repent. To me I cant see that it matters whether the word 'killed' or 'murdered' is used in this case, the fact is that he DELIBERATELY caused the death of a good and faithful man ro cover up his own terrible sin, and to make sure that he wouldnt get into trouble for sleeping with this mans wife and making her pregnant.
Whether he killed or murdered him, he caused his death, and either way he was responsible for his death.
He ordered that he was put in the front of the worst battle, a sure way of causing his death, with the EXPRESS intention of wanting him dead, to get him, (David) out of trouble.
Whether David knew for sure that Uriah would die is irrevelant, he WANTED him dead, and thats is bad enough on its own and he made sure that the chances of him coming back alive were absolutely minimal if not non existant. An appalling thing for anyone to do when he had already betrayed this man by sleeping with his wife.He WAS responsible for this poor mans death whichever way you look at it.
everyone
As a woman I have often wondered if Uriahs wife knew that David had her husband killed, and if she had what she thought about that. I often wondered why she didnt refuse David when he sent for her and had sex with her. Was she actually allowed to refuse, and if she was why didnt she?.
Dont think I would feel very kindly disposed to a man who committed adultery and had my husband killed to cover it up and the last thing I would want to do is to be his wife, king or not.
Chosenone
As we talk about this subject, we eventually have to come to the place where we ask ourselves -- Do I believe the truth or do I believe a lie. For God wants us to whorship him in Spirit and in truth.
The bottom line or underlying thought within this conversation, is the question - Is murder a forgivable sin ?
Those who say yes, are deceived. The Word tells us that "No murderer" hath any eternal life abiding in them. None. There is no forgiveness for murder.
As I have shown, the Prophet Nathan told King David that he killed Uriah. But the Hebrew word is not the same word that is used for the commandment - Thou shalt not kill
King David did not murder Uriah. He put Uriah in a position, whereby he "might" be killed. In war there is no absolute that one will die in battle. In fact we read that some of the valiant men did not die. While some of them did die, of which Uriah was one.
Chosenone, this is not murder ! Now you need to ask yourself, if murder is a forgivable sin or not. The Word tells us that it is not. In fact, God tells us in His Word that the devil was a murderer from the beginning. He is a liar and a murderer. WE all agree where this liar and murderer is headed, correct ?
IF God did not forgive the devil for being a murderer, why does anyone else think that a murderer is going to be allowed to be forgiven ?
King David was not a murderer. Saul was not a murderer. This forum gives us an opportunity to help others with the truth. Just like you and myself standing up for the truth of who is the head of the household and who is the head of the wife. If you and myself are wrong , we need to change on this subject. If you and myself are correct, others need to change their thinking.
We have this opportunity to share with one another, and present those things from within the Wrod of God that are true. King David did not break the commandment that thou shalt not kill (murder) ! If he did, then God would have put King David to death. God removed Saul as King, but God did not remove David. What David did was wrong and it was evil. And God punished David for this evil. But God did not punish King David for murder, and this is a fact that we must understand.
False teachers and false brethren have gone out into the world to deceive. Some have come to believe these false doctorines. They pass these false doctorines along to others, and others tend to believe them. It is time for the truth. And the truth is, is that no murderer hath any eternal life abiding in them.
God Bless
Now I understand who you cannot accept King david as a murderer, becuase you believe that murders cannot be forgiven. Of course they can. The only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, the Bible clearly says that. Murder can be forgiven just as rape can be forgiven, or sexual abuse, or adultery or any other awful sin.
So the millions of women who murder their babies by having an abortion cannot be forgiven? So everyone who has murderd someone cannot be forgiven? Many have been and will continue to be forgiven .Where does it say that Jesus paid the price for all henous sins except murder? What about Nicky Cruz who used to be a druggie and gang member who murdered and now works in amazing ways for God? Is he not forgiven? Of course he is. Jesus paid the price for his sins.......all of them.
: chosenone Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 07:21:27
: Mystery Man Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 04:31:34
: chosenone Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 22:21:41
: Mystery Man Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 17:43:04
And here is the question that has not been answered. God punished King David for the evil that he did. And God did not punish King David for murder. So how can anyone claim that King David committed murder ?
I am also going to show that the prophet Nathan never said that King David broke the commandment - Thou shalt not kill.
It is because of the different Hebrew words used. When Nathan spoke to King David, and when he used the word "killed" , it is the Hebrew word - "nakah" - to cause one's death. But the commandment that - Thou shalt not kill" is the Hebrew word - "ratsach" - to murder
The prophet Nathan never said that King David murdered Uriah. That is because of the different Hebrew word used in II Samuel 12:9, which is where Nathan spoke to King David. King David was the cause of Uriah's death. King David was not a "ratsach" - murderer !
Many false teachers have gone out into the world and itching ears have believed these false teachers into believing an untruth about King David.
King David was "Not" a murderer !
Mysteryman, why is it is hard for you to think that David killed, or murdered Uriah? Killers/murderers are forgiven all the time when they truly repent. To me I cant see that it matters whether the word 'killed' or 'murdered' is used in this case, the fact is that he DELIBERATELY caused the death of a good and faithful man ro cover up his own terrible sin, and to make sure that he wouldnt get into trouble for sleeping with this mans wife and making her pregnant.
Whether he killed or murdered him, he caused his death, and either way he was responsible for his death.
He ordered that he was put in the front of the worst battle, a sure way of causing his death, with the EXPRESS intention of wanting him dead, to get him, (David) out of trouble.
Whether David knew for sure that Uriah would die is irrevelant, he WANTED him dead, and thats is bad enough on its own and he made sure that the chances of him coming back alive were absolutely minimal if not non existant. An appalling thing for anyone to do when he had already betrayed this man by sleeping with his wife.He WAS responsible for this poor mans death whichever way you look at it.
everyone
As a woman I have often wondered if Uriahs wife knew that David had her husband killed, and if she had what she thought about that. I often wondered why she didnt refuse David when he sent for her and had sex with her. Was she actually allowed to refuse, and if she was why didnt she?.
Dont think I would feel very kindly disposed to a man who committed adultery and had my husband killed to cover it up and the last thing I would want to do is to be his wife, king or not.
Chosenone
As we talk about this subject, we eventually have to come to the place where we ask ourselves -- Do I believe the truth or do I believe a lie. For God wants us to whorship him in Spirit and in truth.
The bottom line or underlying thought within this conversation, is the question - Is murder a forgivable sin ?
Those who say yes, are deceived. The Word tells us that "No murderer" hath any eternal life abiding in them. None. There is no forgiveness for murder.
As I have shown, the Prophet Nathan told King David that he killed Uriah. But the Hebrew word is not the same word that is used for the commandment - Thou shalt not kill
King David did not murder Uriah. He put Uriah in a position, whereby he "might" be killed. In war there is no absolute that one will die in battle. In fact we read that some of the valiant men did not die. While some of them did die, of which Uriah was one.
Chosenone, this is not murder ! Now you need to ask yourself, if murder is a forgivable sin or not. The Word tells us that it is not. In fact, God tells us in His Word that the devil was a murderer from the beginning. He is a liar and a murderer. WE all agree where this liar and murderer is headed, correct ?
IF God did not forgive the devil for being a murderer, why does anyone else think that a murderer is going to be allowed to be forgiven ?
King David was not a murderer. Saul was not a murderer. This forum gives us an opportunity to help others with the truth. Just like you and myself standing up for the truth of who is the head of the household and who is the head of the wife. If you and myself are wrong , we need to change on this subject. If you and myself are correct, others need to change their thinking.
We have this opportunity to share with one another, and present those things from within the Wrod of God that are true. King David did not break the commandment that thou shalt not kill (murder) ! If he did, then God would have put King David to death. God removed Saul as King, but God did not remove David. What David did was wrong and it was evil. And God punished David for this evil. But God did not punish King David for murder, and this is a fact that we must understand.
False teachers and false brethren have gone out into the world to deceive. Some have come to believe these false doctorines. They pass these false doctorines along to others, and others tend to believe them. It is time for the truth. And the truth is, is that no murderer hath any eternal life abiding in them.
God Bless
Now I understand who you cannot accept King david as a murderer, becuase you believe that murders cannot be forgiven. Of course they can. The only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, the Bible clearly says that. Murder can be forgiven just as rape can be forgiven, or sexual abuse, or adultery or any other awful sin.
So the millions of women who murder their babies by having an abortion cannot be forgiven? So everyone who has murderd someone cannot be forgiven? Many have been and will continue to be forgiven .Where does it say that Jesus paid the price for all henous sins except murder? What about Nicky Cruz who used to be a druggie and gang member who murdered and now works in amazing ways for God? Is he not forgiven? Of course he is. Jesus paid the price for his sins.......all of them.
Chosenone
I John 3:15 - "No murderer" < None ! hath any eternal life abiding in them" < Zip - Zero - nana - no numereno - a number below the number 1. ( O ) -- empty of ---- zilch --- a bucket with no water in it --- less than one --- 10 minus 10 ---- ran out ----- done ---- without ---- lack of --- none --- unknown -- can not be found --- can not be seen ---- wishful thinking ---- worthless of.
Obviously choseone is correct, again. I John 3:15 is taken out of context. One has simply to read the few verses before that to know this, as has been shown over and over again.
This thread has already crashed, burned, the lifeboat had a hole in it, and now the deserted island where it ended up has a volcano set to erupt any second.
love,
sopranette
: sopranette Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 07:56:43
Obviously choseone is correct, again. I John 3:15 is taken out of context. One has simply to read the few verses before that to know this, as has been shown over and over again.
This thread has already crashed, burned, the lifeboat had a hole in it, and now the deserted island where it ended up has a volcano set to erupt any second.
love,
sopranette
Don't worry, the Professor will figure out a way to calm the volcano in the nick of time, provided Gilligan doesn't do something stupid to screw it up.
I can see that in David's heart he had a plan to get rid of him, allow him to be killed.
But again what bothers me is that he was not judged for murder.....a life for a life.
Unless his judgement was not his life but his son's?
: grace Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 08:57:14
I can see that in David's heart he had a plan to get rid of him, allow him to be killed.
But again what bothers me is that he was not judged for murder.....a life for a life.
Unless his judgement was not his life but his son's?
God took his adulterous sons life because of what it says in II Samuel 12:13 & 14
What David did was evil. And it was worthy of death. But God would never forgive murder. And as I have shown, the two different Hebrew words used show us that King David did not commit murder, and God through Nathan never said that he did.
: Mystery Man Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 07:43:20
: chosenone Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 07:21:27
: Mystery Man Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 04:31:34
: chosenone Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 22:21:41
: Mystery Man Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 17:43:04
And here is the question that has not been answered. God punished King David for the evil that he did. And God did not punish King David for murder. So how can anyone claim that King David committed murder ?
I am also going to show that the prophet Nathan never said that King David broke the commandment - Thou shalt not kill.
It is because of the different Hebrew words used. When Nathan spoke to King David, and when he used the word "killed" , it is the Hebrew word - "nakah" - to cause one's death. But the commandment that - Thou shalt not kill" is the Hebrew word - "ratsach" - to murder
The prophet Nathan never said that King David murdered Uriah. That is because of the different Hebrew word used in II Samuel 12:9, which is where Nathan spoke to King David. King David was the cause of Uriah's death. King David was not a "ratsach" - murderer !
Many false teachers have gone out into the world and itching ears have believed these false teachers into believing an untruth about King David.
King David was "Not" a murderer !
Mysteryman, why is it is hard for you to think that David killed, or murdered Uriah? Killers/murderers are forgiven all the time when they truly repent. To me I cant see that it matters whether the word 'killed' or 'murdered' is used in this case, the fact is that he DELIBERATELY caused the death of a good and faithful man ro cover up his own terrible sin, and to make sure that he wouldnt get into trouble for sleeping with this mans wife and making her pregnant.
Whether he killed or murdered him, he caused his death, and either way he was responsible for his death.
He ordered that he was put in the front of the worst battle, a sure way of causing his death, with the EXPRESS intention of wanting him dead, to get him, (David) out of trouble.
Whether David knew for sure that Uriah would die is irrevelant, he WANTED him dead, and thats is bad enough on its own and he made sure that the chances of him coming back alive were absolutely minimal if not non existant. An appalling thing for anyone to do when he had already betrayed this man by sleeping with his wife.He WAS responsible for this poor mans death whichever way you look at it.
everyone
As a woman I have often wondered if Uriahs wife knew that David had her husband killed, and if she had what she thought about that. I often wondered why she didnt refuse David when he sent for her and had sex with her. Was she actually allowed to refuse, and if she was why didnt she?.
Dont think I would feel very kindly disposed to a man who committed adultery and had my husband killed to cover it up and the last thing I would want to do is to be his wife, king or not.
Chosenone
As we talk about this subject, we eventually have to come to the place where we ask ourselves -- Do I believe the truth or do I believe a lie. For God wants us to whorship him in Spirit and in truth.
The bottom line or underlying thought within this conversation, is the question - Is murder a forgivable sin ?
Those who say yes, are deceived. The Word tells us that "No murderer" hath any eternal life abiding in them. None. There is no forgiveness for murder.
As I have shown, the Prophet Nathan told King David that he killed Uriah. But the Hebrew word is not the same word that is used for the commandment - Thou shalt not kill
King David did not murder Uriah. He put Uriah in a position, whereby he "might" be killed. In war there is no absolute that one will die in battle. In fact we read that some of the valiant men did not die. While some of them did die, of which Uriah was one.
Chosenone, this is not murder ! Now you need to ask yourself, if murder is a forgivable sin or not. The Word tells us that it is not. In fact, God tells us in His Word that the devil was a murderer from the beginning. He is a liar and a murderer. WE all agree where this liar and murderer is headed, correct ?
IF God did not forgive the devil for being a murderer, why does anyone else think that a murderer is going to be allowed to be forgiven ?
King David was not a murderer. Saul was not a murderer. This forum gives us an opportunity to help others with the truth. Just like you and myself standing up for the truth of who is the head of the household and who is the head of the wife. If you and myself are wrong , we need to change on this subject. If you and myself are correct, others need to change their thinking.
We have this opportunity to share with one another, and present those things from within the Wrod of God that are true. King David did not break the commandment that thou shalt not kill (murder) ! If he did, then God would have put King David to death. God removed Saul as King, but God did not remove David. What David did was wrong and it was evil. And God punished David for this evil. But God did not punish King David for murder, and this is a fact that we must understand.
False teachers and false brethren have gone out into the world to deceive. Some have come to believe these false doctorines. They pass these false doctorines along to others, and others tend to believe them. It is time for the truth. And the truth is, is that no murderer hath any eternal life abiding in them.
God Bless
Now I understand who you cannot accept King david as a murderer, becuase you believe that murders cannot be forgiven. Of course they can. The only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, the Bible clearly says that. Murder can be forgiven just as rape can be forgiven, or sexual abuse, or adultery or any other awful sin.
So the millions of women who murder their babies by having an abortion cannot be forgiven? So everyone who has murderd someone cannot be forgiven? Many have been and will continue to be forgiven .Where does it say that Jesus paid the price for all henous sins except murder? What about Nicky Cruz who used to be a druggie and gang member who murdered and now works in amazing ways for God? Is he not forgiven? Of course he is. Jesus paid the price for his sins.......all of them.
Chosenone
I John 3:15 - "No murderer" < None ! hath any eternal life abiding in them" < Zip - Zero - nana - no numereno - a number below the number 1. ( O ) -- empty of ---- zilch --- a bucket with no water in it --- less than one --- 10 minus 10 ---- ran out ----- done ---- without ---- lack of --- none --- unknown -- can not be found --- can not be seen ---- wishful thinking ---- worthless of.
matthew 13.31
Therefore I tell you, EVERY sin and blasphemy can be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit shall not and cannot be forgiven.
EVERY sin includes murder. Every means ALL. It doesnt say EVERY sin except murder, it says EVERY SIN.
: Mystery Man Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 07:43:20
Chosenone
I John 3:15 - "No murderer" < None ! hath any eternal life abiding in them" < Zip - Zero - nana - no numereno - a number below the number 1. ( O ) -- empty of ---- zilch --- a bucket with no water in it --- less than one --- 10 minus 10 ---- ran out ----- done ---- without ---- lack of --- none --- unknown -- can not be found --- can not be seen ---- wishful thinking ---- worthless of.
Did David have eternal life in him? Was the Spirit in them or upon them in the Old Testament?
: OneLung Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 08:43:25
: sopranette Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 07:56:43
Obviously choseone is correct, again. I John 3:15 is taken out of context. One has simply to read the few verses before that to know this, as has been shown over and over again.
This thread has already crashed, burned, the lifeboat had a hole in it, and now the deserted island where it ended up has a volcano set to erupt any second.
love,
sopranette
Don't worry, the Professor will figure out a way to calm the volcano in the nick of time, provided Gilligan doesn't do something stupid to screw it up.
What I always wondered is why the professor couldn't figure out how to fix the boat.
: Mere Nick Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 10:49:22
: OneLung Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 08:43:25
: sopranette Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 07:56:43
Obviously choseone is correct, again. I John 3:15 is taken out of context. One has simply to read the few verses before that to know this, as has been shown over and over again.
This thread has already crashed, burned, the lifeboat had a hole in it, and now the deserted island where it ended up has a volcano set to erupt any second.
love,
sopranette
Don't worry, the Professor will figure out a way to calm the volcano in the nick of time, provided Gilligan doesn't do something stupid to screw it up.
What I always wondered is why the professor couldn't figure out how to fix the boat.
I often ponder these questions too. The wife says they have medicine for it, but I prefer to believe it means that I have no
"more troublesome" issues to worry about, which is a good thing.
: grace Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 08:57:14
I can see that in David's heart he had a plan to get rid of him, allow him to be killed.
But again what bothers me is that he was not judged for murder.....a life for a life.
Unless his judgement was not his life but his son's?
Moses committed Murder also and was not punished for it by God. And God did take a life from David. His son's life.
: Mystery Man Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 09:55:46
: grace Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 08:57:14
I can see that in David's heart he had a plan to get rid of him, allow him to be killed.
But again what bothers me is that he was not judged for murder.....a life for a life.
Unless his judgement was not his life but his son's?
God took his adulterous sons life because of what it says in II Samuel 12:13 & 14
What David did was evil. And it was worthy of death. But God would never forgive murder. And as I have shown, the two different Hebrew words used show us that King David did not commit murder, and God through Nathan never said that he did.
Muderer's cannot go to Heaven? Killing is not Murder? Two things come to mind in the Word:
1) Thou shalt not kill (does not imply murder, it implies inflicting death on another)
2) Those who have purposed in their heart, to kill another, have already done so. Just like lust is adultery, so is wanting to kill someone actually killing (even if you don't do it yourself).
David, was guilty of "putting a man in a place he might die" because he wanted his sin covered up. Did he stab him? no. Did he order someone to stab him? no. Was it convenient, for David, for him to be stabbed to cover up his own sin? yes.
Do you think God will judge any of the above 3 situations any differently? If you have committed one sin, you have committed them all. The "act" of putting him on the frontlines wasn't the sin...it was the "purpose" of why he was placed there that was the sin.
When God references a murderer not entering Heaven, does He mean anyone who has murdered someone in their entire life...or an unrepentant murderer? God lists many different sinners who "will not inherit the kingdom" so why do we stop at just murder? Perhaps thieves will not inherit either...so if you took a candy as a child, you have sealed your doom.
: Mere Nick Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 10:49:22
: OneLung Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 08:43:25
: sopranette Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 07:56:43
Obviously choseone is correct, again. I John 3:15 is taken out of context. One has simply to read the few verses before that to know this, as has been shown over and over again.
This thread has already crashed, burned, the lifeboat had a hole in it, and now the deserted island where it ended up has a volcano set to erupt any second.
love,
sopranette
Don't worry, the Professor will figure out a way to calm the volcano in the nick of time, provided Gilligan doesn't do something stupid to screw it up.
What I always wondered is why the professor couldn't figure out how to fix the boat.
Would you have wanted to fix the boat if you had been stranded with Mary Ann?
: grace Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 10:32:01
: Mystery Man Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 07:43:20
Chosenone
I John 3:15 - "No murderer" < None ! hath any eternal life abiding in them" < Zip - Zero - nana - no numereno - a number below the number 1. ( O ) -- empty of ---- zilch --- a bucket with no water in it --- less than one --- 10 minus 10 ---- ran out ----- done ---- without ---- lack of --- none --- unknown -- can not be found --- can not be seen ---- wishful thinking ---- worthless of.
Did David have eternal life in him? Was the Spirit in them or upon them in the Old Testament?
Here is one of the most interesting questions that I will enjoy answering. God's master plan from the beginning was that all of mankind be given eternal life. This came about through the death and resurrection of his Son. It was a part of God's master plan. God has everyone's name in a book of life, and it is only God that can take that name out of the book of life. So, from the beginning of time God has your name in the book of life. Your name is not added at any point in time. It was always there. The only way your name can be blotted out of the book of life is if God himself blots it out.
God's foreknowledge and master plan gives all of mankind eternal life. But there are two unforgivable sins. To blaspheme the Holy Spirit and murder.
Now I have to deal with Matthew 12:31 because some believe that all manner of sin is forgiven except for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. And even though that is exactly what this verse says. One needs to search the scriptures to double check for the absolute truth.
Because, in Mark 3:29 it tells us that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit does not have foregiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation. Verse 28 says - all sins shall be forgiven - "unto the sons of men"
In Luke 12:10 there is no mention of all sins being forgiven.
Those who murder, are considered sons of the devil. He was a liar and a murder from the beginning. John 8:44
I Peter 4:15 - suffer not as a murderer.
Rev. 21:8 - "But the fearful , and unbelieving, and the abominabel, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers and idolater, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
Rev. 22:15 - "For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whatsoever loveth and maketh a lie"
All manner of sins does not include murder. The key word here is the word "manner". Its a poor translation. What it is saying is the same thing that Mark 3:29 is saying. Sins of the sons of men. Not all "manner" of sins, but sins of sons of men. But the sins of the sons of the devil are not forgiven. Those that make lies and murder are the sons of the devil.
Thus , Mark 3:29 is more accurate and not distorted as Matthew 12:31 is.
Then we have I John 3:15 which tells us that no murderer hath any eternal life abiding in him.
: fanuvmxpx Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 11:17:48
: Mystery Man Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 09:55:46
: grace Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 08:57:14
I can see that in David's heart he had a plan to get rid of him, allow him to be killed.
But again what bothers me is that he was not judged for murder.....a life for a life.
Unless his judgement was not his life but his son's?
God took his adulterous sons life because of what it says in II Samuel 12:13 & 14
What David did was evil. And it was worthy of death. But God would never forgive murder. And as I have shown, the two different Hebrew words used show us that King David did not commit murder, and God through Nathan never said that he did.
Muderer's cannot go to Heaven? Killing is not Murder? Two things come to mind in the Word:
1) Thou shalt not kill (does not imply murder, it implies inflicting death on another)
2) Those who have purposed in their heart, to kill another, have already done so. Just like lust is adultery, so is wanting to kill someone actually killing (even if you don't do it yourself).
David, was guilty of "putting a man in a place he might die" because he wanted his sin covered up. Did he stab him? no. Did he order someone to stab him? no. Was it convenient, for David, for him to be stabbed to cover up his own sin? yes.
Do you think God will judge any of the above 3 situations any differently? If you have committed one sin, you have committed them all. The "act" of putting him on the frontlines wasn't the sin...it was the "purpose" of why he was placed there that was the sin.
When God references a murderer not entering Heaven, does He mean anyone who has murdered someone in their entire life...or an unrepentant murderer? God lists many different sinners who "will not inherit the kingdom" so why do we stop at just murder? Perhaps thieves will not inherit either...so if you took a candy as a child, you have sealed your doom.
Thou shalt not "kill" is the Hebrew word -"ratsach" , and this word means - "Murder" !
: zoonance Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 11:39:12
Would you have wanted to fix the boat if you had been stranded with Mary Ann?
Excellent point. ::bueno::
Tell you what, MM. Let's just add to your little list of sins that can't be forgiven. Along with that 1John 3 verse let's use these two from 1Corinthians 6
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
You see, it's not just blasphemers and murderers that can't be forgiven. None of these people are going to make it either.
What's that? You want me to read the next verse? Oh my, why would I do such a thing? Context, you say? But why should I care about context? These verses say just what I want them to, and you want me to mess that up? Shame on you!
: Nevertheless Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 13:19:55
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
You see, it's not just blasphemers and murderers that can't be forgiven. None of these people are going to make it either.
Well, that pretty much means heaven is going to be a lonley place.
I just want to know one thing....
WHY Mystery man only knows one punctuation mark... the (!) ... and why does it always have to be spaced out alone ?
What's up with that? Bugs me. Is he THAT excited about what he writes? It's really hard to find people who misuse proper punctuation so much to be believable in what they write. ::shrug::
: Mystery Man Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 11:50:00
Thou shalt not "kill" is the Hebrew word -"ratsach" , and this word means - "Murder" !
Actually, I believe the exclamation mark belongs
inside the ending quote, but hey, marc is the English teacher here, not me. :)
In the UK and I suspect in the uSA also, if someone hires someone else to murder someone for them, they are also charged with murder along with the hit man. Those who put Uriah in the heat of battle were only obeying orders, and those who killed him werre fighting a war. David was the perpetrator of this terroble act, when he should have been in battle with his men anyway instead of sleeping with their wives.
So 2 points here
1) David was responsible for Uriahs death and
2)Murderers can and are forgiven if they repent.
: kensington Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 11:17:10
: grace Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 08:57:14
I can see that in David's heart he had a plan to get rid of him, allow him to be killed.
But again what bothers me is that he was not judged for murder.....a life for a life.
Unless his judgement was not his life but his son's?
Moses committed Murder also and was not punished for it by God. And God did take a life from David. His son's life.
good point Kensington, so, Mystery man, does that mean that Moses isnt in heaven either, as well as David not being there (becuase he killed Uriah)? What about those who have killed others in war? Are they not going to heaven either? What about those who have had babies aborted? What about Nicky criz and others who murdered before they saved?
Of course they will all be there if they have accepted jesus as Lord becuaase he forgives ALL sins except the one mentioned in the Bible.
: OneLung Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 12:04:23
: zoonance Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 11:39:12
Would you have wanted to fix the boat if you had been stranded with Mary Ann?
Excellent point. ::bueno::
An excellent point, indeed. Mary Ann is definitely military, as in Major Babe.
: Mystery Man Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 11:50:00
Thou shalt not "kill" is the Hebrew word -"ratsach" , and this word means - "Murder" !
What was the cultural definition then of "murder" in those days? Did it have multiple meanings? Was it any death except in times of war?
: Nevertheless Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 13:19:55
Tell you what, MM. Let's just add to your little list of sins that can't be forgiven. Along with that 1John 3 verse let's use these two from 1Corinthians 6 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
You see, it's not just blasphemers and murderers that can't be forgiven. None of these people are going to make it either.
What's that? You want me to read the next verse? Oh my, why would I do such a thing? Context, you say? But why should I care about context? These verses say just what I want them to, and you want me to mess that up? Shame on you!
Key word - "inherit", which means no inheritance in the kingdom of God.
: chosenone Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 13:53:46
: kensington Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 11:17:10
: grace Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 08:57:14
I can see that in David's heart he had a plan to get rid of him, allow him to be killed.
But again what bothers me is that he was not judged for murder.....a life for a life.
Unless his judgement was not his life but his son's?
Moses committed Murder also and was not punished for it by God. And God did take a life from David. His son's life.
good point Kensington, so, Mystery man, does that mean that Moses isnt in heaven either, as well as David not being there (becuase he killed Uriah)? What about those who have killed others in war? Are they not going to heaven either? What about those who have had babies aborted? What about Nicky criz and others who murdered before they saved?
Of course they will all be there if they have accepted jesus as Lord becuaase he forgives ALL sins except the one mentioned in the Bible.
Moses is not a murderer either <leaveing out punctuation mark becaue it looks too much like an upside down tie>
: fanuvmxpx Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 14:26:56
: Mystery Man Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 11:50:00
Thou shalt not "kill" is the Hebrew word -"ratsach" , and this word means - "Murder" !
What was the cultural definition then of "murder" in those days? Did it have multiple meanings? Was it any death except in times of war?
The cultural definition was - "Thou shalt not kill" (murder) . The "Law" was the Law of God, not the law of the land .
When God sent Nathan to King David, Nathan did not use the same Hebrew word for murder.
What in the world is this thread about??? ??? ??? ???
Does not anyone understand that killing one of the enemy of God is not murder ? Moses killed an enemy of God.
The Egytian smiting a Hebrew -- which means the Egytian killed a Hebrew. Exodus 2:11 - the word "smiting" is the Hebrew word - "nakah".
Moses "slew" the Egytian. The Hebrew word for "slew" is this same word - "nakah"
Notice that neither the Egytian nor Moses murdered anyone. That is because the Hebrew word for murder , being - "ratsach" is not used in either statement.
::headspin:: ::doh::
: Mystery Man Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 16:11:25
Does not anyone understand that killing one of the enemy of God is not murder ? Moses killed an enemy of God.
The Egytian smiting a Hebrew -- which means the Egytian killed a Hebrew. Exodus 2:11 - the word "smiting" is the Hebrew word - "nakah".
Moses "slew" the Egytian. The Hebrew word for "slew" is this same word - "nakah"
Notice that neither the Egytian nor Moses murdered anyone. That is because the Hebrew word for murder , being - "ratsach" is not used in either statement.
So if a Muslim kills me, for no reason, its murder. But if I kill him, for no reason, its not? This is why holy wars still exist.
: marc Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 15:58:51
What in the world is this thread about??? ??? ??? ???
Stubbornness?
: marc Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 15:58:51
What in the world is this thread about??? ??? ??? ???
Instead of "Plane Crash" perhaps it should have been named "Train Wreck".
: marc Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 15:58:51
What in the world is this thread about??? ??? ??? ???
The great enjoyment one receives from hot fried okra and ice cold beer on tap.
: grace Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 08:57:14
I can see that in David's heart he had a plan to get rid of him, allow him to be killed.
But again what bothers me is that he was not judged for murder.....a life for a life.
Unless his judgement was not his life but his son's?
Amen, the baby's life was not spared. And David also had the son he loved most turn on him and attack him in war - Absalom. Absalom's long curly hair got twisted in the branches of a tree and he lost his life. God refused to let David build the house of worship for him because he had shed innocent blood, which greatly distressed David. His son Solomon built it later.
David paid a dear price for his sins. God was merciful in sparing his life.
: Nevertheless Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 17:40:15
: marc Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 15:58:51
What in the world is this thread about??? ??? ??? ???
Instead of "Plane Crash" perhaps it should have been named "Train Wreck".
Well, you women are to blame. :)
: Nevertheless Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 17:40:15
: marc Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 15:58:51
What in the world is this thread about??? ??? ??? ???
Instead of "Plane Crash" perhaps it should have been named "Train Wreck".
Now are you sure that is the right word for "Train Wreck" and you didn't use the term of the culture for "Train ride"? Be sure.
: Mystery Man Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 16:11:25
Does not anyone understand that killing one of the enemy of God is not murder ? Moses killed an enemy of God.
The Egytian smiting a Hebrew -- which means the Egytian killed a Hebrew. Exodus 2:11 - the word "smiting" is the Hebrew word - "nakah".
Moses "slew" the Egytian. The Hebrew word for "slew" is this same word - "nakah"
Notice that neither the Egytian nor Moses murdered anyone. That is because the Hebrew word for murder , being - "ratsach" is not used in either statement.
uriah definately was not the enemy of God
: Bonnie Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 18:07:45
: grace Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 08:57:14
I can see that in David's heart he had a plan to get rid of him, allow him to be killed.
But again what bothers me is that he was not judged for murder.....a life for a life.
Unless his judgement was not his life but his son's?
Amen, the baby's life was not spared. And David also had the son he loved most turn on him and attack him in war - Absalom. Absalom's long curly hair got twisted in the branches of a tree and he lost his life. God refused to let David build the house of worship for him because he had shed innocent blood, which greatly distressed David. His son Solomon built it later.
David paid a dear price for his sins. God was merciful in sparing his life.
Yes very true, he did pay for his terrible actions. Whenever we committ such awful sins there are always consequenses, whether they be on us or on our family.
We are to forgive those who trespass against us, correct ?
How does one who is murdered , forgive that person who murdered them ?
Use scripture if you are going to reply to the question please.
: chosenone Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 02:51:52
: Mystery Man Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 16:11:25
Does not anyone understand that killing one of the enemy of God is not murder ? Moses killed an enemy of God.
The Egytian smiting a Hebrew -- which means the Egytian killed a Hebrew. Exodus 2:11 - the word "smiting" is the Hebrew word - "nakah".
Moses "slew" the Egytian. The Hebrew word for "slew" is this same word - "nakah"
Notice that neither the Egytian nor Moses murdered anyone. That is because the Hebrew word for murder , being - "ratsach" is not used in either statement.
uriah definately was not the enemy of God
True, but the enemy killed him correct ? The children of Ammon.
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 05:49:06
We are to forgive those who trespass against us, correct ?
How does one who is murdered , forgive that person who murdered them ?
Use scripture if you are going to reply to the question please.
When you sin you do so against God.
: Bonnie Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 06:33:54
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 05:49:06
We are to forgive those who trespass against us, correct ?
How does one who is murdered , forgive that person who murdered them ?
Use scripture if you are going to reply to the question please.
When you sin you do so against God.
The question was about forgiveness and how one forgives. Never put your right shoe on your left foot, and never put your left shoe on your right foot.
I am beginning to understand how Jonah felt when he went unto the people of Nineveh
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 06:44:52
I am beginning to understand how Jonah felt when he went unto the people of Nineveh
Self righteous and condescending?
: HeRestoresMyHeart Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 06:48:00
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 06:44:52
I am beginning to understand how Jonah felt when he went unto the people of Nineveh
Self righteous and condescending?
I am waiting for God to give me a gourd.
: HeRestoresMyHeart Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 06:48:00
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 06:44:52
I am beginning to understand how Jonah felt when he went unto the people of Nineveh
Self righteous and condescending?
rofl
::takingphoto::
::frustrated::
::doh::
::baby::
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 08:21:00
::takingphoto::
::frustrated::
::doh::
::baby::
Come on MM, you got to admit, you set yourself up and she nailed you. haha!!
: OneLung Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 08:25:18
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 08:21:00
::takingphoto::
::frustrated::
::doh::
::baby::
Come on MM, you got to admit, you set yourself up and she nailed you. haha!!
would you like a gourd as well ?
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 08:30:55
: OneLung Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 08:25:18
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 08:21:00
::takingphoto::
::frustrated::
::doh::
::baby::
Come on MM, you got to admit, you set yourself up and she nailed you. haha!!
would you like a gourd as well ?
Is this "upside down" day? HeRestoresMyHeart is being a smart a** and MM is being sensitive. rofl
::sleepingsoundly::
::baby::
::frown::
: OneLung Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 08:37:22
Is this "upside down" day? HeRestoresMyHeart is being a smart a** and MM is being sensitive. rofl
hmmm, never occurred to me but maybe...
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 06:44:52
: Bonnie Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 06:33:54
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 05:49:06
We are to forgive those who trespass against us, correct ?
How does one who is murdered , forgive that person who murdered them ?
Use scripture if you are going to reply to the question please.
When you sin you do so against God.
The question was about forgiveness and how one forgives. Never put your right shoe on your left foot, and never put your left shoe on your right foot.
I am beginning to understand how Jonah felt when he went unto the people of Nineveh
Well, you could let a giant fish swallow you.
: Bonnie Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 08:52:51
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 06:44:52
: Bonnie Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 06:33:54
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 05:49:06
We are to forgive those who trespass against us, correct ?
How does one who is murdered , forgive that person who murdered them ?
Use scripture if you are going to reply to the question please.
When you sin you do so against God.
The question was about forgiveness and how one forgives. Never put your right shoe on your left foot, and never put your left shoe on your right foot.
I am beginning to understand how Jonah felt when he went unto the people of Nineveh
Well, you could let a giant fish swallow you.
That was Ahab.
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 05:49:06
We are to forgive those who trespass against us, correct ?
How does one who is murdered , forgive that person who murdered them ?
Use scripture if you are going to reply to the question please.
their family can forgive him. Jesus forgives us even if the person that we sinned against doesnt or cant. For example if someone is unfaithful to their spouse, and if later they are truly repentant, they are forgiven,even if their spouse cannot. Our salvation doesnt depend on whether man forgives us but whether God does
: chosenone Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 09:14:16
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 05:49:06
We are to forgive those who trespass against us, correct ?
How does one who is murdered , forgive that person who murdered them ?
Use scripture if you are going to reply to the question please.
their family can forgive him. Jesus forgives us even if the person that we sinned against doesnt or cant. For example if someone is unfaithful to their spouse, and if later they are truly repentant, they are forgiven,even if their spouse cannot. Our salvation doesnt depend on whether man forgives us but whether God does
Try and understand, that if you forgive someone it will be forgiven of you as well. Our forgiveness of others is up to the individual who has had a trespass against us. The one who trespassed against us, needs to ask for forgivenss as well, for their own lives.
So how does the one who was murdered forgive the one who murdered them ?
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 09:26:30
: chosenone Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 09:14:16
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 05:49:06
We are to forgive those who trespass against us, correct ?
How does one who is murdered , forgive that person who murdered them ?
Use scripture if you are going to reply to the question please.
their family can forgive him. Jesus forgives us even if the person that we sinned against doesnt or cant. For example if someone is unfaithful to their spouse, and if later they are truly repentant, they are forgiven,even if their spouse cannot. Our salvation doesnt depend on whether man forgives us but whether God does
Try and understand, that if you forgive someone it will be forgiven of you as well. Our forgiveness of others is up to the individual who has had a trespass against us. The one who trespassed against us, needs to ask for forgivenss as well, for their own lives.
So how does the one who was murdered forgive the one who murdered them ?
It is Gods forgiveness that we need not mans forgiveness. If I sin against someone and they refuse to forgive me if I repent, that is their sin. We are told to forgive others, but we cannot make anyone forgive. If we come to Jesus truly repentant, is is HE who forgives. What if we sin against some one who dies. Are you saying that we cannot be forgiven becauase that person had since died?
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 09:26:30
: chosenone Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 09:14:16
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 05:49:06
We are to forgive those who trespass against us, correct ?
How does one who is murdered , forgive that person who murdered them ?
Use scripture if you are going to reply to the question please.
their family can forgive him. Jesus forgives us even if the person that we sinned against doesnt or cant. For example if someone is unfaithful to their spouse, and if later they are truly repentant, they are forgiven,even if their spouse cannot. Our salvation doesnt depend on whether man forgives us but whether God does
Try and understand, that if you forgive someone it will be forgiven of you as well. Our forgiveness of others is up to the individual who has had a trespass against us. The one who trespassed against us, needs to ask for forgivenss as well, for their own lives.
So how does the one who was murdered forgive the one who murdered them ?
Forgiveness by one who was trespassed against is not for the trespasser, it is for the one who was the victim so to speak- unforgivness by humans does not hurt the sinner it hurts the one sinned against- therefore it is for the benefit/detriment of the one who is or is not doing the forgiving.
I am sure there are quite a few of us who have not been forgiven by others for various things and reasons yet we still have repented before God for our sins and received His forgiveness which is where our salvation lies- yet many who have not forgiven a trespass against them are walking around in anger and/or bitterness, hence unforgivness hurting the one refusing to forgive as opposed to the one not forgiven by that person! Human forgiveness does not provide salvation, nor does human unforgiveness prevent another from being saved- only God can do that!
Also if one was murdered without opportunity to forgive (obviously) then they also had no chance to hold any malice in their hearts toward the murderer, therefore if they died knowing God they have nothing to worry about!
: HeRestoresMyHeart Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 11:28:28
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 09:26:30
: chosenone Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 09:14:16
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 05:49:06
We are to forgive those who trespass against us, correct ?
How does one who is murdered , forgive that person who murdered them ?
Use scripture if you are going to reply to the question please.
their family can forgive him. Jesus forgives us even if the person that we sinned against doesnt or cant. For example if someone is unfaithful to their spouse, and if later they are truly repentant, they are forgiven,even if their spouse cannot. Our salvation doesnt depend on whether man forgives us but whether God does
Try and understand, that if you forgive someone it will be forgiven of you as well. Our forgiveness of others is up to the individual who has had a trespass against us. The one who trespassed against us, needs to ask for forgivenss as well, for their own lives.
So how does the one who was murdered forgive the one who murdered them ?
Forgiveness by one who was trespassed against is not for the trespasser, it is for the one who was the victim so to speak- unforgivness by humans does not hurt the sinner it hurts the one sinned against- therefore it is for the benefit/detriment of the one who is or is not doing the forgiving.
I am sure there are quite a few of us who have not been forgiven by others for various things and reasons yet we still have repented before God for our sins and received His forgiveness which is where our salvation lies- yet many who have not forgiven a trespass against them are walking around in anger and/or bitterness, hence unforgivness hurting the one refusing to forgive as opposed to the one not forgiven by that person! Human forgiveness does not provide salvation, nor does human unforgiveness prevent another from being saved- only God can do that!
Also if one was murdered without opportunity to forgive (obviously) then they also had no chance to hold any malice in their hearts toward the murderer, therefore if they died knowing God they have nothing to worry about!
Yes, I would say that the murdered person is "obviously" not going to give out forgiveness. LOL
But it is not about the one murdered. It is about the murderer.
: chosenone Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 11:07:53
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 09:26:30
: chosenone Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 09:14:16
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 05:49:06
We are to forgive those who trespass against us, correct ?
How does one who is murdered , forgive that person who murdered them ?
Use scripture if you are going to reply to the question please.
their family can forgive him. Jesus forgives us even if the person that we sinned against doesnt or cant. For example if someone is unfaithful to their spouse, and if later they are truly repentant, they are forgiven,even if their spouse cannot. Our salvation doesnt depend on whether man forgives us but whether God does
Try and understand, that if you forgive someone it will be forgiven of you as well. Our forgiveness of others is up to the individual who has had a trespass against us. The one who trespassed against us, needs to ask for forgivenss as well, for their own lives.
So how does the one who was murdered forgive the one who murdered them ?
It is Gods forgiveness that we need not mans forgiveness. If I sin against someone and they refuse to forgive me if I repent, that is their sin. We are told to forgive others, but we cannot make anyone forgive. If we come to Jesus truly repentant, is is HE who forgives. What if we sin against some one who dies. Are you saying that we cannot be forgiven becauase that person had since died?
Excuse me for saying this. But you are not listening to what I have been asking.
How does the one who was murdered forgive the one who murdered them ?
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 12:01:42
: HeRestoresMyHeart Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 11:28:28
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 09:26:30
: chosenone Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 09:14:16
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 05:49:06
We are to forgive those who trespass against us, correct ?
How does one who is murdered , forgive that person who murdered them ?
Use scripture if you are going to reply to the question please.
their family can forgive him. Jesus forgives us even if the person that we sinned against doesnt or cant. For example if someone is unfaithful to their spouse, and if later they are truly repentant, they are forgiven,even if their spouse cannot. Our salvation doesnt depend on whether man forgives us but whether God does
Try and understand, that if you forgive someone it will be forgiven of you as well. Our forgiveness of others is up to the individual who has had a trespass against us. The one who trespassed against us, needs to ask for forgivenss as well, for their own lives.
So how does the one who was murdered forgive the one who murdered them ?
Forgiveness by one who was trespassed against is not for the trespasser, it is for the one who was the victim so to speak- unforgivness by humans does not hurt the sinner it hurts the one sinned against- therefore it is for the benefit/detriment of the one who is or is not doing the forgiving.
I am sure there are quite a few of us who have not been forgiven by others for various things and reasons yet we still have repented before God for our sins and received His forgiveness which is where our salvation lies- yet many who have not forgiven a trespass against them are walking around in anger and/or bitterness, hence unforgivness hurting the one refusing to forgive as opposed to the one not forgiven by that person! Human forgiveness does not provide salvation, nor does human unforgiveness prevent another from being saved- only God can do that!
Also if one was murdered without opportunity to forgive (obviously) then they also had no chance to hold any malice in their hearts toward the murderer, therefore if they died knowing God they have nothing to worry about!
Yes, I would say that the murdered person is "obviously" not going to give out forgiveness. LOL
But it is not about the one murdered. It is about the murderer.
like I said the murderer only needs God's forgiveness, so they need to repent before Him and if they don't well then they don't have it do they!
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 12:04:27
: chosenone Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 11:07:53
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 09:26:30
: chosenone Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 09:14:16
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 05:49:06
We are to forgive those who trespass against us, correct ?
How does one who is murdered , forgive that person who murdered them ?
Use scripture if you are going to reply to the question please.
their family can forgive him. Jesus forgives us even if the person that we sinned against doesnt or cant. For example if someone is unfaithful to their spouse, and if later they are truly repentant, they are forgiven,even if their spouse cannot. Our salvation doesnt depend on whether man forgives us but whether God does
Try and understand, that if you forgive someone it will be forgiven of you as well. Our forgiveness of others is up to the individual who has had a trespass against us. The one who trespassed against us, needs to ask for forgivenss as well, for their own lives.
So how does the one who was murdered forgive the one who murdered them ?
It is Gods forgiveness that we need not mans forgiveness. If I sin against someone and they refuse to forgive me if I repent, that is their sin. We are told to forgive others, but we cannot make anyone forgive. If we come to Jesus truly repentant, is is HE who forgives. What if we sin against some one who dies. Are you saying that we cannot be forgiven becauase that person had since died?
Excuse me for saying this. But you are not listening to what I have been asking.
How does the one who was murdered forgive the one who murdered them ?
Actually I saw everything you wrote and believe I answered quite clearly- however I believe you may be confusing yourself, as in your previous post you wrote :
"Yes, I would say that the murdered person is "obviously" not going to give out forgiveness. LOL
But it is not about the one murdered. It is about the murderer."Yet above you are bringing it back to the murdere(d) one forgiving, therefore making it about that! In my above post, I have addressed it in my answer from both sides.
If he committed that murder in AZ, TX or FL, he's gonna need a lot more than just God's forgiveness. ::bueno::
: OneLung Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 12:09:38
If he committed that murder in AZ, TX or FL, he's gonna need a lot more than just God's forgiveness. ::bueno::
If he committed it in FL, its a safe bet that no one will ever know who he is besides God!
: HeRestoresMyHeart Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 12:04:38
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 12:01:42
: HeRestoresMyHeart Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 11:28:28
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 09:26:30
: chosenone Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 09:14:16
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 05:49:06
We are to forgive those who trespass against us, correct ?
How does one who is murdered , forgive that person who murdered them ?
Use scripture if you are going to reply to the question please.
their family can forgive him. Jesus forgives us even if the person that we sinned against doesnt or cant. For example if someone is unfaithful to their spouse, and if later they are truly repentant, they are forgiven,even if their spouse cannot. Our salvation doesnt depend on whether man forgives us but whether God does
Try and understand, that if you forgive someone it will be forgiven of you as well. Our forgiveness of others is up to the individual who has had a trespass against us. The one who trespassed against us, needs to ask for forgivenss as well, for their own lives.
So how does the one who was murdered forgive the one who murdered them ?
Forgiveness by one who was trespassed against is not for the trespasser, it is for the one who was the victim so to speak- unforgivness by humans does not hurt the sinner it hurts the one sinned against- therefore it is for the benefit/detriment of the one who is or is not doing the forgiving.
I am sure there are quite a few of us who have not been forgiven by others for various things and reasons yet we still have repented before God for our sins and received His forgiveness which is where our salvation lies- yet many who have not forgiven a trespass against them are walking around in anger and/or bitterness, hence unforgivness hurting the one refusing to forgive as opposed to the one not forgiven by that person! Human forgiveness does not provide salvation, nor does human unforgiveness prevent another from being saved- only God can do that!
Also if one was murdered without opportunity to forgive (obviously) then they also had no chance to hold any malice in their hearts toward the murderer, therefore if they died knowing God they have nothing to worry about!
Yes, I would say that the murdered person is "obviously" not going to give out forgiveness. LOL
But it is not about the one murdered. It is about the murderer.
like I said the murderer only needs God's forgiveness, so they need to repent before Him and if they don't well then they don't have it do they!
Your missing the point as well as Chosenone.
How does the murdered person forgive the one who murdered him ?
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 12:01:42
: HeRestoresMyHeart Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 11:28:28
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 09:26:30
: chosenone Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 09:14:16
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 05:49:06
We are to forgive those who trespass against us, correct ?
How does one who is murdered , forgive that person who murdered them ?
Use scripture if you are going to reply to the question please.
their family can forgive him. Jesus forgives us even if the person that we sinned against doesnt or cant. For example if someone is unfaithful to their spouse, and if later they are truly repentant, they are forgiven,even if their spouse cannot. Our salvation doesnt depend on whether man forgives us but whether God does
Try and understand, that if you forgive someone it will be forgiven of you as well. Our forgiveness of others is up to the individual who has had a trespass against us. The one who trespassed against us, needs to ask for forgivenss as well, for their own lives.
So how does the one who was murdered forgive the one who murdered them ?
Forgiveness by one who was trespassed against is not for the trespasser, it is for the one who was the victim so to speak- unforgivness by humans does not hurt the sinner it hurts the one sinned against- therefore it is for the benefit/detriment of the one who is or is not doing the forgiving.
I am sure there are quite a few of us who have not been forgiven by others for various things and reasons yet we still have repented before God for our sins and received His forgiveness which is where our salvation lies- yet many who have not forgiven a trespass against them are walking around in anger and/or bitterness, hence unforgivness hurting the one refusing to forgive as opposed to the one not forgiven by that person! Human forgiveness does not provide salvation, nor does human unforgiveness prevent another from being saved- only God can do that!
Also if one was murdered without opportunity to forgive (obviously) then they also had no chance to hold any malice in their hearts toward the murderer, therefore if they died knowing God they have nothing to worry about!
Yes, I would say that the murdered person is "obviously" not going to give out forgiveness. LOL
But it is not about the one murdered. It is about the murderer.
Welll, speaking for myself mysteryman we will have to agree to disagree, becuase David planned Uriahs murder, it wasnt an act of self defence or accidental death. He thought about it, planned it and decided to do it even though he knew in his heart that it was wrong.
Also I know that murderers can and are forgiven even though the victim cannot forgive. Any sin can be forgiven except blaspheny against the Holy Spirit. No sin is too horrible for Jesus to cover if the one who did it truly repents.
Who knows even the man next to Jesus on the cross may have murdered others and he was forgiven.
: chosenone Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 12:24:22
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 12:01:42
: HeRestoresMyHeart Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 11:28:28
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 09:26:30
: chosenone Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 09:14:16
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 05:49:06
We are to forgive those who trespass against us, correct ?
How does one who is murdered , forgive that person who murdered them ?
Use scripture if you are going to reply to the question please.
their family can forgive him. Jesus forgives us even if the person that we sinned against doesnt or cant. For example if someone is unfaithful to their spouse, and if later they are truly repentant, they are forgiven,even if their spouse cannot. Our salvation doesnt depend on whether man forgives us but whether God does
Try and understand, that if you forgive someone it will be forgiven of you as well. Our forgiveness of others is up to the individual who has had a trespass against us. The one who trespassed against us, needs to ask for forgivenss as well, for their own lives.
So how does the one who was murdered forgive the one who murdered them ?
Forgiveness by one who was trespassed against is not for the trespasser, it is for the one who was the victim so to speak- unforgivness by humans does not hurt the sinner it hurts the one sinned against- therefore it is for the benefit/detriment of the one who is or is not doing the forgiving.
I am sure there are quite a few of us who have not been forgiven by others for various things and reasons yet we still have repented before God for our sins and received His forgiveness which is where our salvation lies- yet many who have not forgiven a trespass against them are walking around in anger and/or bitterness, hence unforgivness hurting the one refusing to forgive as opposed to the one not forgiven by that person! Human forgiveness does not provide salvation, nor does human unforgiveness prevent another from being saved- only God can do that!
Also if one was murdered without opportunity to forgive (obviously) then they also had no chance to hold any malice in their hearts toward the murderer, therefore if they died knowing God they have nothing to worry about!
Yes, I would say that the murdered person is "obviously" not going to give out forgiveness. LOL
But it is not about the one murdered. It is about the murderer.
Welll, speaking for myself mysteryman we will have to agree to disagree, becuase David planned Uriahs murder, it wasnt an act of self defence or accidental death. He thought about it, planned it and decided to do it even though he knew in his heart that it was wrong.
Also I know that murderers can and are forgiven even though the victim cannot forgive. Any sin can be forgiven except blaspheny against the Holy Spirit. No sin is too horrible for Jesus to cover if the one who did it truly repents.
Who knows even the man next to Jesus on the cross may have murdered others and he was forgiven.
To blaspheme against the Holy Spirit is a sin against God. God can not forgive you of this sin, and he will not forgive you of this sin.
To murder is a sin against the person whom you murdered. If you sin in the OT under the law, God asked that they compensate for their sin against that person. If the person you trespass against, forgives you, God still asked that they return that which was taken. For certain sins, you could be put to death for those sins. In the ten commandments , there are only two commandments that are unforgivable. Idolatry and murder. And God dealt with these two commandments in the most severe way, including taking their names out of the book of life.
The two commandments we now are to live by are in direct relatinship to those two commandments. To love God and to love our neighbor. If you hate your brother you commit murder. And no murderer hath any eternal life abiding in him.
The one murdered can not forgive the one who murdered that person. And God can not forgive the one who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit. Because both "can not" forgive, forgivness is not given.
God can forgive murder, just as he can forgive rape, abuse, stealing, adultery, or any other sin that we committ against anyone else whether they forgive us or not. It doesnt matter whether the person that we hurt forgives us or not, that is their choice, but you are saying that Jesus died for everyone except those who have killed someone(including david by the way). No where does it say that murder or killing can not be forgiven by what Jesus did. The ONLY sin that the Bible tells us that cant be forgiven by Jesus death is the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. You are saying that what Jesus did isnt enough to forgive some sins and that isnt Biblical. NOTHING is too awful for his blood to wash us free from. Even if Hitler had TRULY repented on his death bed, he would have been forgiven.
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 12:43:49
The one murdered can not forgive the one who murdered that person. And God can not forgive the one who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit. Because both "can not" forgive, forgivness is not given.
Either you are wrong or the Bible contradicts itself. The Word says that if you commit one sin you have committed them all. If you have stolen, you have murdered. Sin is sin. By your theology, any sin is therefore unforgivable which is contrary to the Word. So either you are wrong or the Word is wrong.
I don't see why this is so complicated. You can preach all you want about murder being unforgivable...doesn't change the Word though.
Also, it is entirely possible to be forgiven by the Lord and not by man. What if you hurt someone and wanted their forgiveness but could not find them? You've repented to the Lord but are still un-forgiven by man.
: fanuvmxpx Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 13:40:42
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 12:43:49
The one murdered can not forgive the one who murdered that person. And God can not forgive the one who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit. Because both "can not" forgive, forgivness is not given.
Either you are wrong or the Bible contradicts itself. The Word says that if you commit one sin you have committed them all. If you have stolen, you have murdered. Sin is sin. By your theology, any sin is therefore unforgivable which is contrary to the Word. So either you are wrong or the Word is wrong.
I don't see why this is so complicated. You can preach all you want about murder being unforgivable...doesn't change the Word though.
Agreed. no where does it say that murder is an unforgivable sin. Many murderers have come to Christ and been forgiven.
: chosenone Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 12:54:09
God can forgive murder, just as he can forgive rape, abuse, stealing, adultery, or any other sin that we committ against anyone else whether they forgive us or not. It doesnt matter whether the person that we hurt forgives us or not, that is their choice, but you are saying that Jesus died for everyone except those who have killed someone(including david by the way). No where does it say that murder or killing can not be forgiven by what Jesus did. The ONLY sin that the Bible tells us that cant be forgiven by Jesus death is the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. You are saying that what Jesus did isnt enough to forgive some sins and that isnt Biblical. NOTHING is too awful for his blood to wash us free from. Even if Hitler had TRULY repented on his death bed, he would have been forgiven.
Well it is obvious that you are unwilling to look at this from a logical point of view.
King David didn't murder, so he can be forgiven. But because it is impossible for a murdered person to forgive, it is impossible for forgiveness. And I John 3:15 still speaks volumes of the truth.
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:00:48
Well it is obvious that you are unwilling to look at this from a logical point of view.
King David didn't murder, so he can be forgiven. But because it is impossible for a murdered person to forgive, it is impossible for forgiveness. And I John 3:15 still speaks volumes of the truth.
Your logic is destroyed by fallacy...
Either you are wrong or the Bible contradicts itself. The Word says that if you commit one sin you have committed them all. If you have stolen, you have murdered. Sin is sin. By your theology, any sin is therefore unforgivable which is contrary to the Word. So either you are wrong or the Word is wrong.
I don't see why this is so complicated. You can preach all you want about murder being unforgivable...doesn't change the Word though.
Also, it is entirely possible to be forgiven by the Lord and not by man. What if you hurt someone and wanted their forgiveness but could not find them? You've repented to the Lord but are still un-forgiven by man
: chosenone Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 13:44:23
: fanuvmxpx Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 13:40:42
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 12:43:49
The one murdered can not forgive the one who murdered that person. And God can not forgive the one who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit. Because both "can not" forgive, forgivness is not given.
Either you are wrong or the Bible contradicts itself. The Word says that if you commit one sin you have committed them all. If you have stolen, you have murdered. Sin is sin. By your theology, any sin is therefore unforgivable which is contrary to the Word. So either you are wrong or the Word is wrong.
I don't see why this is so complicated. You can preach all you want about murder being unforgivable...doesn't change the Word though.
Agreed. no where does it say that murder is an unforgivable sin. Many murderers have come to Christ and been forgiven.
No they havn't, and that is the lie. I am not calling you a liar. What I am saying is that it is a lie that has been preached, and believed. The adversary will try by any means to deceive.
God can not go against His Word. I John 3:15 is truth, and anything else is untruth, or a lie.
: fanuvmxpx Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:02:00
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:00:48
Well it is obvious that you are unwilling to look at this from a logical point of view.
King David didn't murder, so he can be forgiven. But because it is impossible for a murdered person to forgive, it is impossible for forgiveness. And I John 3:15 still speaks volumes of the truth.
Your logic is destroyed by fallacy...
Either you are wrong or the Bible contradicts itself. The Word says that if you commit one sin you have committed them all. If you have stolen, you have murdered. Sin is sin. By your theology, any sin is therefore unforgivable which is contrary to the Word. So either you are wrong or the Word is wrong.
I don't see why this is so complicated. You can preach all you want about murder being unforgivable...doesn't change the Word though.
Also, it is entirely possible to be forgiven by the Lord and not by man. What if you hurt someone and wanted their forgiveness but could not find them? You've repented to the Lord but are still un-forgiven by man
fan, where are you getting this false information from ? If you commit one sin, then you commit all sins, then you just comitted the unforgivable sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Your beliefs are not logical !
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:00:48
: chosenone Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 12:54:09
God can forgive murder, just as he can forgive rape, abuse, stealing, adultery, or any other sin that we committ against anyone else whether they forgive us or not. It doesnt matter whether the person that we hurt forgives us or not, that is their choice, but you are saying that Jesus died for everyone except those who have killed someone(including david by the way). No where does it say that murder or killing can not be forgiven by what Jesus did. The ONLY sin that the Bible tells us that cant be forgiven by Jesus death is the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. You are saying that what Jesus did isnt enough to forgive some sins and that isnt Biblical. NOTHING is too awful for his blood to wash us free from. Even if Hitler had TRULY repented on his death bed, he would have been forgiven.
Well it is obvious that you are unwilling to look at this from a logical point of view.
King David didn't murder, so he can be forgiven. But because it is impossible for a murdered person to forgive, it is impossible for forgiveness. And I John 3:15 still speaks volumes of the truth.
You have twisted this so far out of reality .... The murdered person does not have to forgive the murderer. God does. The word says that unless you forgive that your sins will not be forgiven you. BUT... it does not say that those who sin against you are not forgiven if they seek it from God. That is not what the word says.. IF you do not forgive someone their sins, they can still go to God and be forgiven, such as the case in the dead person cannot forgive the murderer... He must go to God for forgiveness.
The only person who would be in danger if the dead person can't forgive, is the dead person, for if he doesn't forgive, he won't be forgiven, but being murdered.. means they were not able, not that they wouldn't. God know it all.
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:07:52
: fanuvmxpx Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:02:00
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:00:48
Well it is obvious that you are unwilling to look at this from a logical point of view.
King David didn't murder, so he can be forgiven. But because it is impossible for a murdered person to forgive, it is impossible for forgiveness. And I John 3:15 still speaks volumes of the truth.
Your logic is destroyed by fallacy...
Either you are wrong or the Bible contradicts itself. The Word says that if you commit one sin you have committed them all. If you have stolen, you have murdered. Sin is sin. By your theology, any sin is therefore unforgivable which is contrary to the Word. So either you are wrong or the Word is wrong.
I don't see why this is so complicated. You can preach all you want about murder being unforgivable...doesn't change the Word though.
Also, it is entirely possible to be forgiven by the Lord and not by man. What if you hurt someone and wanted their forgiveness but could not find them? You've repented to the Lord but are still un-forgiven by man
fan, where are you getting this false information from ? If you commit one sin, then you commit all sins, then you just committed the unforgivable sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Your beliefs are not logical !
The word says, if you break one commandment or you break them all, you are guilty of the LAW... sin is sin... except for the one GOD set aside as being the ONE that will not be forgiven. You can't change that, wish it away, pout it gone or try to logic it out of existance...
You twist the word... And not very creatively either.
It's PEBKAC error, specifically an ID 10 T.
love,
sopranette
I know the wife was kind of hoping that some of you guys would eventually rub-off on me, but I think it's working the other way around. ::eatingpopcorn:
Mark 3:28
28I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them.
29But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin.
: kensington Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:13:10
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:07:52
: fanuvmxpx Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:02:00
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:00:48
Well it is obvious that you are unwilling to look at this from a logical point of view.
King David didn't murder, so he can be forgiven. But because it is impossible for a murdered person to forgive, it is impossible for forgiveness. And I John 3:15 still speaks volumes of the truth.
Your logic is destroyed by fallacy...
Either you are wrong or the Bible contradicts itself. The Word says that if you commit one sin you have committed them all. If you have stolen, you have murdered. Sin is sin. By your theology, any sin is therefore unforgivable which is contrary to the Word. So either you are wrong or the Word is wrong.
I don't see why this is so complicated. You can preach all you want about murder being unforgivable...doesn't change the Word though.
Also, it is entirely possible to be forgiven by the Lord and not by man. What if you hurt someone and wanted their forgiveness but could not find them? You've repented to the Lord but are still un-forgiven by man
fan, where are you getting this false information from ? If you commit one sin, then you commit all sins, then you just committed the unforgivable sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Your beliefs are not logical !
The word says, if you break one commandment or you break them all, you are guilty of the LAW... sin is sin... except for the one GOD set aside as being the ONE that will not be forgiven. You can't change that, wish it away, pout it gone or try to logic it out of existance...
You twist the word... And not very creatively either.
Amen Kensington!
James 2:10
10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point
is guilty of breaking all of itand MM you have repeatedly demanded scripture reference of others, but yet avoid providing any yourself ::pondering::
: kensington Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:13:10
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:07:52
: fanuvmxpx Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:02:00
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:00:48
Well it is obvious that you are unwilling to look at this from a logical point of view.
King David didn't murder, so he can be forgiven. But because it is impossible for a murdered person to forgive, it is impossible for forgiveness. And I John 3:15 still speaks volumes of the truth.
Your logic is destroyed by fallacy...
Either you are wrong or the Bible contradicts itself. The Word says that if you commit one sin you have committed them all. If you have stolen, you have murdered. Sin is sin. By your theology, any sin is therefore unforgivable which is contrary to the Word. So either you are wrong or the Word is wrong.
I don't see why this is so complicated. You can preach all you want about murder being unforgivable...doesn't change the Word though.
Also, it is entirely possible to be forgiven by the Lord and not by man. What if you hurt someone and wanted their forgiveness but could not find them? You've repented to the Lord but are still un-forgiven by man
fan, where are you getting this false information from ? If you commit one sin, then you commit all sins, then you just committed the unforgivable sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Your beliefs are not logical !
The word says, if you break one commandment or you break them all, you are guilty of the LAW... sin is sin... except for the one GOD set aside as being the ONE that will not be forgiven. You can't change that, wish it away, pout it gone or try to logic it out of existance...
You twist the word... And not very creatively either.
Reading the Word and properly understanding it are two totally different things. I noticed you put your own spin on the interpretation. Which you now end up with private interpretation.
This is the will of God - Numbers 35:31 -- If King David was a murderer, God would have no choice but to have His own Word fuflilled !
James 2:10 says this -- "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all" -- No one has ever kept the whole law.
Now lets read context - verse 11 - "For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet, thou kill , thou art become a transgressor of the law" < Killing, which is murder, makes one guilty of all the law. There is no other sin other than murder which transgresses the whole law !
Now lets back up a couple of verses - James 2:8 - "If ye fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well"
HE keeps demanding how the person who is murdered can forgive the one who killed them ... but that is not what the word says. It doesn't say IF you don't forgive the one who murders you they won't be forgiven if they seek GOD to forgive them, it says...
IF you do not forgive... YOU WON'T BE FORGIVEN. But in the case of the murder victim, I think that God has that in his hands. Not getting a chance to forgive and refusing to forgive are two different things, and what that admonishment speaks to.
: HeRestoresMyHeart Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:36:25
Mark 3:28
28I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them.
29But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin.
: HeRestoresMyHeart Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:38:57
: kensington Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:13:10
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:07:52
: fanuvmxpx Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:02:00
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:00:48
Well it is obvious that you are unwilling to look at this from a logical point of view.
King David didn't murder, so he can be forgiven. But because it is impossible for a murdered person to forgive, it is impossible for forgiveness. And I John 3:15 still speaks volumes of the truth.
Your logic is destroyed by fallacy...
Either you are wrong or the Bible contradicts itself. The Word says that if you commit one sin you have committed them all. If you have stolen, you have murdered. Sin is sin. By your theology, any sin is therefore unforgivable which is contrary to the Word. So either you are wrong or the Word is wrong.
I don't see why this is so complicated. You can preach all you want about murder being unforgivable...doesn't change the Word though.
Also, it is entirely possible to be forgiven by the Lord and not by man. What if you hurt someone and wanted their forgiveness but could not find them? You've repented to the Lord but are still un-forgiven by man
fan, where are you getting this false information from ? If you commit one sin, then you commit all sins, then you just committed the unforgivable sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Your beliefs are not logical !
The word says, if you break one commandment or you break them all, you are guilty of the LAW... sin is sin... except for the one GOD set aside as being the ONE that will not be forgiven. You can't change that, wish it away, pout it gone or try to logic it out of existance...
You twist the word... And not very creatively either.
Amen Kensington!
James 2:10
10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it
and MM you have repeatedly demanded scripture reference of others, but yet avoid providing any yourself ::pondering::
The full context is talking about being a respector of persons.
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:43:36
: kensington Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:13:10
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:07:52
: fanuvmxpx Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:02:00
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:00:48
Well it is obvious that you are unwilling to look at this from a logical point of view.
King David didn't murder, so he can be forgiven. But because it is impossible for a murdered person to forgive, it is impossible for forgiveness. And I John 3:15 still speaks volumes of the truth.
Your logic is destroyed by fallacy...
Either you are wrong or the Bible contradicts itself. The Word says that if you commit one sin you have committed them all. If you have stolen, you have murdered. Sin is sin. By your theology, any sin is therefore unforgivable which is contrary to the Word. So either you are wrong or the Word is wrong.
I don't see why this is so complicated. You can preach all you want about murder being unforgivable...doesn't change the Word though.
Also, it is entirely possible to be forgiven by the Lord and not by man. What if you hurt someone and wanted their forgiveness but could not find them? You've repented to the Lord but are still un-forgiven by man
fan, where are you getting this false information from ? If you commit one sin, then you commit all sins, then you just committed the unforgivable sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Your beliefs are not logical !
The word says, if you break one commandment or you break them all, you are guilty of the LAW... sin is sin... except for the one GOD set aside as being the ONE that will not be forgiven. You can't change that, wish it away, pout it gone or try to logic it out of existance...
You twist the word... And not very creatively either.
Reading the Word and properly understanding it are two totally different things. I noticed you put your own spin on the interpretation. Which you now end up with private interpretation.
This is the will of God - Numbers 35:31 -- If King David was a murderer, God would have no choice but to have His own Word fuflilled !
James 2:10 says this -- "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all" -- No one has ever kept the whole law.
Now lets read context - verse 11 - "For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet, thou kill , thou art become a transgressor of the law" < Killing, which is murder, makes one guilty of all the law. There is no other sin other than murder which transgresses the whole law !
Now lets back up a couple of verses - James 2:8 - "If ye fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well"
Now... lets gag me with a spoon because you are not my teacher. Not today not ever. I did not put a spin on anything... I said it as it is written, and Herestoresmyheart posted the EXACT Scripture that says EXACTLY what I said.
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:43:36There is no other sin other than murder which transgresses the whole law !
MM that is a blatent twist of scripture as that verse (James 2:10) does not say that at all not even a little bit!!! What is says is that if you break one law (regardless of what it is) you are guilty of breaking them all and in regards to murder it says:
verse 11
I believes Mysteryman is probably a FALSE TEACHER.... ! ! ! ! ! ! !
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:46:49
: HeRestoresMyHeart Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:36:25
Mark 3:28
28I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them.
29But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin.
Now, let us repeat... "EVERY" sin will be forgiven "BUT" blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:07:52
fan, where are you getting this false information from ? If you commit one sin, then you commit all sins, then you just committed the unforgivable sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Your beliefs are not logical !
What is clearly logical, is that even your concept of logic is a fallacy in and of itself. Where did you study logic? Do you know the rules of logic & the constraints of logic? Argument/Premise/Fallacy...any of these terms ring a bell? I can give you Psych 101, I've educated myself for years.
Let me ask you this...what is blaspheming the Holy Spirit? That might help you in your understanding of sin. Why is it unforgivable?
Oh, and I get all my false information from the Bible. Ponder that one for awhile ::smile::
Now, now. There's no reason to bring logic into this. Carry on...
love,
sopranette
: sopranette Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 15:47:13
Now, now. There's no reason to bring logic into this. Carry on...
love,
sopranette
It wasn't meant to be insulting in any way...I just caution individuals from using certain terms that they have no grasp of meaning. Shall we continue?...
It looks like we probably will....unfortunately. Now, what's the definition of "is" again?
love,
sopranette
: sopranette Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 15:47:13
Now, now. There's no reason to bring logic into this. Carry on...
love,
sopranette
Oh yes... The logic dance.... It looks a wee bit like the Chicken dance, only you wear a bag over your head so as not to see reality going on.
: sopranette Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 15:51:52
It looks like we probably will....unfortunately. Now, what's the definition of "is" again?
love,
sopranette
The best part about that...IS that "is" isn't definable. Adverbs don't exactly have meanings 8oP
I'm waiting for someone to tell me that in the original Greek, "is" doesn't mean what we think it means.
love,
sopranette
: sopranette Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 15:57:18
I'm waiting for someone to tell me that in the original Greek, "is" doesn't mean what we think it means.
love,
sopranette
I'm sure that you won't be disappointed, that is BOUND to happen eventually. Keep the faith.
: kensington Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:49:40
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:43:36
: kensington Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:13:10
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:07:52
: fanuvmxpx Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:02:00
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:00:48
Well it is obvious that you are unwilling to look at this from a logical point of view.
King David didn't murder, so he can be forgiven. But because it is impossible for a murdered person to forgive, it is impossible for forgiveness. And I John 3:15 still speaks volumes of the truth.
Your logic is destroyed by fallacy...
Either you are wrong or the Bible contradicts itself. The Word says that if you commit one sin you have committed them all. If you have stolen, you have murdered. Sin is sin. By your theology, any sin is therefore unforgivable which is contrary to the Word. So either you are wrong or the Word is wrong.
I don't see why this is so complicated. You can preach all you want about murder being unforgivable...doesn't change the Word though.
Also, it is entirely possible to be forgiven by the Lord and not by man. What if you hurt someone and wanted their forgiveness but could not find them? You've repented to the Lord but are still un-forgiven by man
fan, where are you getting this false information from ? If you commit one sin, then you commit all sins, then you just committed the unforgivable sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Your beliefs are not logical !
The word says, if you break one commandment or you break them all, you are guilty of the LAW... sin is sin... except for the one GOD set aside as being the ONE that will not be forgiven. You can't change that, wish it away, pout it gone or try to logic it out of existance...
You twist the word... And not very creatively either.
Reading the Word and properly understanding it are two totally different things. I noticed you put your own spin on the interpretation. Which you now end up with private interpretation.
This is the will of God - Numbers 35:31 -- If King David was a murderer, God would have no choice but to have His own Word fuflilled !
James 2:10 says this -- "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all" -- No one has ever kept the whole law.
Now lets read context - verse 11 - "For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet, thou kill , thou art become a transgressor of the law" < Killing, which is murder, makes one guilty of all the law. There is no other sin other than murder which transgresses the whole law !
Now lets back up a couple of verses - James 2:8 - "If ye fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well"
Now... lets gag me with a spoon because you are not my teacher. Not today not ever. I did not put a spin on anything... I said it as it is written, and Herestoresmyheart posted the EXACT Scripture that says EXACTLY what I said.
You said that the book of James is saying that if you commit one you are guilty of the whole law, then you said except for the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Which btw the book of James makes no such mention !
: HeRestoresMyHeart Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:49:40
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:43:36There is no other sin other than murder which transgresses the whole law !
MM that is a blatent twist of scripture as that verse (James 2:10) does not say that at all not even a little bit!!! What is says is that if you break one law (regardless of what it is) you are guilty of breaking them all and in regards to murder it says:
verse 11
If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker."
it is explaining that just because you don't do one sin, if you do another you are still guilty!
If you are a respector of persons you are guilty of sin. This is what the book of James chapter 2 is telling us - Context !
If you take a rich man and honor him more than you do a poor man , you sin, because of being a respector of persons. God is no respector of persons, and we are not suppose to be either. Then chapter 2 gives us an example. Sin is sin, but one sin does not make you a sinner of another sin that you did not commit ! That is ludicrous.
: HeRestoresMyHeart Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:56:51
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:46:49
: HeRestoresMyHeart Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:36:25
Mark 3:28
28I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them.
29But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin.
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 16:24:14
: HeRestoresMyHeart Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:49:40
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:43:36There is no other sin other than murder which transgresses the whole law !
MM that is a blatent twist of scripture as that verse (James 2:10) does not say that at all not even a little bit!!! What is says is that if you break one law (regardless of what it is) you are guilty of breaking them all and in regards to murder it says:
verse 11
If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker."
it is explaining that just because you don't do one sin, if you do another you are still guilty!
If you are a respector of persons you are guilty of sin. This is what the book of James chapter 2 is telling us - Context !
If you take a rich man and honor him more than you do a poor man , you sin, because of being a respector of persons. God is no respector of persons, and we are not suppose to be either. Then chapter 2 gives us an example. Sin is sin, but one sin does not make you a sinner of another sin that you did not commit ! That is ludicrous.
You know, you have some nerve telling others "CONTEXT"... when half the time we can't even tell if you even have a BIBLE to use. You twist and contrive the word to say what you want and then tell us... "Context"... to that I say... Hypocrite ! ! ! !
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 16:24:14
: HeRestoresMyHeart Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:49:40
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:43:36There is no other sin other than murder which transgresses the whole law !
MM that is a blatent twist of scripture as that verse (James 2:10) does not say that at all not even a little bit!!! What is says is that if you break one law (regardless of what it is) you are guilty of breaking them all and in regards to murder it says:
verse 11
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 16:28:15
: HeRestoresMyHeart Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:56:51
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:46:49
: HeRestoresMyHeart Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:36:25
Mark 3:28
28I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them.
29But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin.
: HeRestoresMyHeart Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 16:46:26
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 16:24:14
: HeRestoresMyHeart Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:49:40
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:43:36There is no other sin other than murder which transgresses the whole law !
MM that is a blatent twist of scripture as that verse (James 2:10) does not say that at all not even a little bit!!! What is says is that if you break one law (regardless of what it is) you are guilty of breaking them all and in regards to murder it says:
verse 11
If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker."
it is explaining that just because you don't do one sin, if you do another you are still guilty!
If you are a respector of persons you are guilty of sin. This is what the book of James chapter 2 is telling us - Context !
If you take a rich man and honor him more than you do a poor man , you sin, because of being a respector of persons. God is no respector of persons, and we are not suppose to be either. Then chapter 2 gives us an example. Sin is sin, but one sin does not make you a sinner of another sin that you did not commit ! That is ludicrous.
Now you are mixing scripture to suit your immediate need? 1st you want to use the scripture to try and prove your claim that murder is an unforgivable sin and when your theory is shown to be false you change tactics and try to claim that the scripture isn't speaking about anything like that, but only about favoratism- you contradict yourself quite a few times in your posts and you perhaps are the only one not paying attention to what you are saying! :juggle:: ::doh::
Sin is sin, even being a respector of persons is a sin. But that does not make you a theif or an idolator ! It means that you have broken the law. The law tells us what sin is, without the law there would be no sin. But if you break one of the laws of the law of God, you have sinned.
But one sin does not mean that you have broken all the sins of the law !
The only sin that breaks all the law is murder.
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 17:13:14
Sin is sin, even being a respector of persons is a sin. But that does not make you a theif or an idolator ! It means that you have broken the law. The law tells us what sin is, without the law there would be no sin. But if you break one of the laws of the law of God, you have sinned.
But one sin does not mean that you have broken all the sins of the law !
The only sin that breaks all the law is murder.
Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive.
: fanuvmxpx Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 17:15:56
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 17:13:14
Sin is sin, even being a respector of persons is a sin. But that does not make you a theif or an idolator ! It means that you have broken the law. The law tells us what sin is, without the law there would be no sin. But if you break one of the laws of the law of God, you have sinned.
But one sin does not mean that you have broken all the sins of the law !
The only sin that breaks all the law is murder.
Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive.
The deceived carry the deceivers message of deception.
The devil deceived the woman in the garden. Why do you think she "gave" to her husband to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil ?
: fanuvmxpx Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 17:15:56
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 17:13:14
Sin is sin, even being a respector of persons is a sin. But that does not make you a theif or an idolator ! It means that you have broken the law. The law tells us what sin is, without the law there would be no sin. But if you break one of the laws of the law of God, you have sinned.
But one sin does not mean that you have broken all the sins of the law !
The only sin that breaks all the law is murder.
Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive.
Amen, and with that I'm done with entertaining this whole thing any longer !
Here in John 8:42 - 44 Jesus is talking to Jews. Jesus says that if God was your father, ye would love me. They also wanted to kill him - verses - 37 & 40 because you seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. Then Jesus tells them in verse 44, that you are of your father the devil, and the lust of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in truth, because there is no truth in him.
This record backs up what I have been trying to explain . There is no truth in a murderer and the word has no place in them. To murder is to be a son of the devil, just like these jews were. These were not sons of men, they were sons of the devil. Sons of men sin, but as long as they are not sons of the devil, their sins can be forgiven. But those whoes father is the devil is a murderer and the truth is not in them.
I John 3:12 tells us that Cain was of that wicked one - The devil was his father. Cain was a murderer.
All murderers fit this understanding that we see here in John chapter 8. To claim differently, means that you have been deceived . A murderer is of their father the devil, and there is no eternal life abiding in them.
The devil deceived the woman in the garden. Why do you think she "gave" to her husband to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil ?
Okay... that does it ! I get it now... Where are the cameras ? Is this like candid camera... and we've all been caught ? ?
Cause ... this just cannot be real. No one really teaches so much so far from the word of God ... it's almost like.. Um... Um... well, I guess it's like nothing I've ever seen before. ::shrug:: ::shrug:: ::shrug:: ::shrug::
Mysteryman do you live in a "Ward" some where ? Do "nice people" come twice a day to give you medicine? Do you get to go off the floor for meals or do you get a tray ? I know these are complicated questions... but please try to focus and answer them as best as you can. Have you had a ceramics class lately? I think it's really nice that nowadays you kids can have computer time too before you go to basket weaving. Get some rest now, this has probably plum wore you out. Peace.
: Mystery Man Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 18:26:59
All murderers fit this understanding that we see here in John chapter 8. To claim differently, means that you have been deceived . A murderer is of their father the devil, and there is no eternal life abiding in them.
Well, no... not until they get saved. But, once they repent, they are cleansed white as snow and just as saved and headed for eternity in Heaven as you and me. They give up the lie and take on the blood of Christ for the remissions of their sins... ALL OF THEM. Indeed.
In my discussions with you all, I have seen the inability of babes in the Word to handle the scriptures properly. This is because you are unskilled in the scriptures, because you can only handle the milk of the Word.
This subject of murder, is too difficult for you all to handle. I encourage each and every one of you to study the word of God more diligently. Ask those whom you believe is stronger in the scriptures than you are, to allow them to help you see the error's of you ways.
God Bless
: Mystery Man Wed Feb 25, 2009 - 06:50:55
In my discussions with you all, I have seen the inability of babes in the Word to handle the scriptures properly. This is because you are unskilled in the scriptures, because you can only handle the milk of the Word.
This subject of murder, is too difficult for you all to handle. I encourage each and every one of you to study the word of God more diligently. Ask those whom you believe is stronger in the scriptures than you are, to allow them to help you see the error's of you ways.
God Bless
Arrogance and pride abounds. Everyone disagrees with you so you tell us that NONE of us understand the word and only YOU do of course. Could it actually be that we understand it very much more than you do?
Dont you think it is strange that all of those who have been on this topic have disagreed with you? Usually there are those on both sides of anything but here, on this topic, you stand alone. Of course you cannot see that this is becuase you are wrong. No where does it say that a murderer cannot be forgiven, there is only one unforgiveable sin, but of couse we have all said this before with ALL the verses and you ignore it every time.
Unfortunately if you are right neither Moses or David will be in heaven.
I think this is what is called banging your head against a very large brick wall.
: chosenone Wed Feb 25, 2009 - 07:00:47
: Mystery Man Wed Feb 25, 2009 - 06:50:55
In my discussions with you all, I have seen the inability of babes in the Word to handle the scriptures properly. This is because you are unskilled in the scriptures, because you can only handle the milk of the Word.
This subject of murder, is too difficult for you all to handle. I encourage each and every one of you to study the word of God more diligently. Ask those whom you believe is stronger in the scriptures than you are, to allow them to help you see the error's of you ways.
God Bless
Arrogance and pride abounds. Everyone disagrees with you so you tell us that NONE of us understand the word and only YOU do of course. Could it actually be that we understand it very much more than you do?
Dont you think it is strange that all of those who have been on this topic have disagreed with you? Usually there are those on both sides of anything but here, on this topic, you stand alone. Of course you cannot see that this is becuase you are wrong. No where does it say that a murderer cannot be forgiven, there is only one unforgiveable sin, but of couse we have all said this before with ALL the verses and you ignore it every time.
Unfortunately if you are right neither Moses or David will be in heaven.
I think this is what is called banging your head against a very large brick wall.
IF I am right, then Moses and David did not commit murder. So your comment falls short of being logical.
: Mystery Man Wed Feb 25, 2009 - 07:06:35
: chosenone Wed Feb 25, 2009 - 07:00:47
: Mystery Man Wed Feb 25, 2009 - 06:50:55
In my discussions with you all, I have seen the inability of babes in the Word to handle the scriptures properly. This is because you are unskilled in the scriptures, because you can only handle the milk of the Word.
This subject of murder, is too difficult for you all to handle. I encourage each and every one of you to study the word of God more diligently. Ask those whom you believe is stronger in the scriptures than you are, to allow them to help you see the error's of you ways.
God Bless
Arrogance and pride abounds. Everyone disagrees with you so you tell us that NONE of us understand the word and only YOU do of course. Could it actually be that we understand it very much more than you do?
Dont you think it is strange that all of those who have been on this topic have disagreed with you? Usually there are those on both sides of anything but here, on this topic, you stand alone. Of course you cannot see that this is becuase you are wrong. No where does it say that a murderer cannot be forgiven, there is only one unforgiveable sin, but of couse we have all said this before with ALL the verses and you ignore it every time.
Unfortunately if you are right neither Moses or David will be in heaven.
I think this is what is called banging your head against a very large brick wall.
IF I am right, then Moses and David did not commit murder. So your comment falls short of being logical.
But you are not right. That is what everyone is trying to tell you. One more time you have mangled the word of God.
: chosenone Wed Feb 25, 2009 - 07:00:47
: Mystery Man Wed Feb 25, 2009 - 06:50:55
In my discussions with you all, I have seen the inability of babes in the Word to handle the scriptures properly. This is because you are unskilled in the scriptures, because you can only handle the milk of the Word.
This subject of murder, is too difficult for you all to handle. I encourage each and every one of you to study the word of God more diligently. Ask those whom you believe is stronger in the scriptures than you are, to allow them to help you see the error's of you ways.
God Bless
Arrogance and pride abounds. Everyone disagrees with you so you tell us that NONE of us understand the word and only YOU do of course. Could it actually be that we understand it very much more than you do?
Dont you think it is strange that all of those who have been on this topic have disagreed with you? Usually there are those on both sides of anything but here, on this topic, you stand alone. Of course you cannot see that this is becuase you are wrong. No where does it say that a murderer cannot be forgiven, there is only one unforgiveable sin, but of couse we have all said this before with ALL the verses and you ignore it every time.
Unfortunately if you are right neither Moses or David will be in heaven.
I think this is what is called banging your head against a very large brick wall.
Chosneone
If you feel that being a part of the majority justifies you being correct on this topic. Then you should also remember that it was the vast majority of the Jews, that told Pilate - crucify him - crucify him.
What is being debated here?
: OneLung Wed Feb 25, 2009 - 07:46:55
What is being debated here?
Trolls.....to feed or not to feed?
love,
sopranette
: OneLung Wed Feb 25, 2009 - 07:46:55
What is being debated here?
whether murder can be forgiven or not, which of course it can as no where does the BiIble say that murder is the unforgiveable sin. There is only one unforgiveable sin and that is NOT murder.
Oh well MM you carry on living in your dream world if it makes you happy, but in this case the majority are right and you, in the minority of one, are wrong as you are going against what Jesus died for. You are saying that The death of Jesus was not enough to cover the sin of murder, whch of course it was.
The latest reports are that only 9 people died in the crash of the Turkish airline jet in Amsterdam. Let's hope that number does not increase.
By the way it looks like the previous pages on this thread are a train wreck instead of a discussion about a plane wreck.
: spurly Wed Feb 25, 2009 - 08:35:01
The latest reports are that only 9 people died in the crash of the Turkish airline jet in Amsterdam. Let's hope that number does not increase.
By the way it looks like the previous pages on this thread are a train wreck instead of a discussion about a plane wreck.
The OP was not about a plane crash. It was about whether or not they knew Jesus before they died.
The women here caused this thread to crash. Oh, and lets not forget Jimmy as well.
To die in a plane crash and to know or not to know Jesus, according to the OP, would suffer eternal punishment.
Then it expanded from there.
Of course from time to time some of the children wanted to know - "are we there yet" ? Then the plane crashed/ oops, I mean this thread crashed.
: spurly Wed Feb 25, 2009 - 08:35:01
The latest reports are that only 9 people died in the crash of the Turkish airline jet in Amsterdam. Let's hope that number does not increase.
By the way it looks like the previous pages on this thread are a train wreck instead of a discussion about a plane wreck.
The discussion was about who would go to heaven (originally) when they die.
: Mystery Man Wed Feb 25, 2009 - 08:48:00
: spurly Wed Feb 25, 2009 - 08:35:01
The latest reports are that only 9 people died in the crash of the Turkish airline jet in Amsterdam. Let's hope that number does not increase.
By the way it looks like the previous pages on this thread are a train wreck instead of a discussion about a plane wreck.
The OP was not about a plane crash. It was about whether or not they knew Jesus before they died.
The women here caused this thread to crash. Oh, and lets not forget Jimmy as well.
To die in a plane crash and to know or not to know Jesus, according to the OP, would suffer eternal punishment.
Then it expanded from there.
Of course from time to time some of the children wanted to know - "are we there yet" ? Then the plane crashed/ oops, I mean this thread crashed.
Oh so it was the WOMANS fault was it......now where have I heard that before................................
He didn't say the same thing when the men laughed him out of the baptism thread. Was it the men's fault there, as well?
love,
sopranette
: chosenone Wed Feb 25, 2009 - 08:50:27
: Mystery Man Wed Feb 25, 2009 - 08:48:00
: spurly Wed Feb 25, 2009 - 08:35:01
The latest reports are that only 9 people died in the crash of the Turkish airline jet in Amsterdam. Let's hope that number does not increase.
By the way it looks like the previous pages on this thread are a train wreck instead of a discussion about a plane wreck.
The OP was not about a plane crash. It was about whether or not they knew Jesus before they died.
The women here caused this thread to crash. Oh, and lets not forget Jimmy as well.
To die in a plane crash and to know or not to know Jesus, according to the OP, would suffer eternal punishment.
Then it expanded from there.
Of course from time to time some of the children wanted to know - "are we there yet" ? Then the plane crashed/ oops, I mean this thread crashed.
Oh so it was the WOMANS fault was it......now where have I heard that before................................
I thought we normally relied on Memphis Dwight for the "woman bashing" perspective. ::whistle::
: chosenone Wed Feb 25, 2009 - 08:50:27
: Mystery Man Wed Feb 25, 2009 - 08:48:00
: spurly Wed Feb 25, 2009 - 08:35:01
The latest reports are that only 9 people died in the crash of the Turkish airline jet in Amsterdam. Let's hope that number does not increase.
By the way it looks like the previous pages on this thread are a train wreck instead of a discussion about a plane wreck.
The OP was not about a plane crash. It was about whether or not they knew Jesus before they died.
The women here caused this thread to crash. Oh, and lets not forget Jimmy as well.
To die in a plane crash and to know or not to know Jesus, according to the OP, would suffer eternal punishment.
Then it expanded from there.
Of course from time to time some of the children wanted to know - "are we there yet" ? Then the plane crashed/ oops, I mean this thread crashed.
Oh so it was the WOMANS fault was it......now where have I heard that before................................
Lets not forget Jimmy.
He is a late bloomer.
Actually , it was the woman who for the most part wanted to lead this discussion down the road into the murder discussion, claiming false claims as they went along .
Makes one wonder how it is that so many women are so adamant about protecting such a false premise that murder is a forgivable sin.
: sopranette Wed Feb 25, 2009 - 08:53:19
He didn't say the same thing when the men laughed him out of the baptism thread. Was it the men's fault there, as well?
love,
sopranette
Jimmy has a strange laugh does he not ?
Not as strange as your fairy tales.
love,
sopranette
::backontopic::
: Bigdog Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 08:27:25
...My point is, the Bible says our life is like a vapor, one minute your here, the next minute you gone. I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering...
IMO, Bigdog's belief shows us that it is dangerous to blindly accept the metaphoric writings of men as
absolute truth.
"AGAIN...the "murderer" in I John 3:15 is the unbeliever who hates God's children.
love,
Sopranette"
The above statement , which by the way is untrue, is where this thread went astray.
However, it is not important at this time. It is water over the bridge .
But the reason I brought this forward, is to show how easily it is to go astray with one's own private interpretation. As did the OP who claimed that if they did not know Jesus they were going to eternal pain.
: OneLung Wed Feb 25, 2009 - 09:09:49
::backontopic::
: Bigdog Thu Feb 19, 2009 - 08:27:25
...My point is, the Bible says our life is like a vapor, one minute your here, the next minute you gone. I feel sorry for anyone on that plane, who did not know Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior. They now face an eternity of pain and suffering...
IMO, Bigdog's belief shows us that it is dangerous to blindly accept the metaphoric writings of men as absolute truth.
What metaphoric writings of men are you referring to?
This thread has run far beyond it's course. It is now locked.