Does praying for others really work? Take, for example, the following 2 scenarios.
1) A guy gets stranded on a deserted Island. He was a well-liked guy who always did work in the name of God. He is now all by himself, however, and is virtually forgotten about after many years go by.
2) Another guy is a well-known and well-liked celebrity. He is also known as a loving person who is always doing good in the name of God. He us constantly on TV and is watched by millions.
Both guys then get a terminal form of cancer. The celebrity guy ends up having millions of people praying for him to recover but the lonely guy on the island has no prayers coming into God for him. If praying for someone else is actually effective, then the only conclusion would be that the celebrity has a much higher chance of being healed than the guy on the island. Is God, then being influenced by us? Will the guy on the island receive less consideration from God than a celebrity who knows millions? God loves everyone equal so he should not discriminate based on the number of prayers the person gets. Am I missing something here?
If a tree falls in the forest...? ::doh::
: cwestra Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 14:29:28
Does praying for others really work? Take, for example, the following 2 scenarios.
1) A guy gets stranded on a deserted Island. He was a well-liked guy who always did work in the name of God. He is now all by himself, however, and is virtually forgotten about after many years go by.
2) Another guy is a well-known and well-liked celebrity. He is also known as a loving person who is always doing good in the name of God. He us constantly on TV and is watched by millions.
Both guys then get a terminal form of cancer. The celebrity guy ends up having millions of people praying for him to recover but the lonely guy on the island has no prayers coming into God for him. If praying for someone else is actually effective, then the only conclusion would be that the celebrity has a much higher chance of being healed than the guy on the island. Is God, then being influenced by us? Will the guy on the island receive less consideration from God than a celebrity who knows millions? God loves everyone equal so he should not discriminate based on the number of prayers the person gets. Am I missing something here?
Tell me the testimony of your salvation... I'd love to hear it.
Well, I don't have cancer, if that is what you're wondering. The scenario posed is a hypothetical situation to help convey my thought beter. I grew up in a Christian family and have gone to church (on and off) throughout my life. I am now in my late 40's and have recently been concerned about a few things.
First, I feel like I sort of "inherited" my faith in Christ being raised in a Christian family. I did not discover Jesus through extensive research or some life changing experience like some. And I have realized that, in my case, a faith that has been "inherited" is just not strong enough for me. So over the last couple of years I have been pondering questions (several you will soon see) of faith that I am now seeking answers to. Praying is one of them. I believe in prayer, don't get me wrong, but I believe you can really only pray for yourself and that prayer brings you closer to God. Those, based on my reasoning, are the benifits of praying.
Second, I believe that I am not knowledgable enough to back up my belief's if asked or confronted by a non-believer. And for me, this is essential. In order to become an effective Christian I must be able to support my belief's and hopefully convince non-believers to become a Christian. Otherwise, I am doing my religion a dis-service and actually making any discussions of this sort with non-believers worse.
I consider my self a Christian but am experiencing some doubts about things and am not impressed with responses from many preachers and ministers, at times. I know that I need to read the Bible more and that answers to many of my questions are in there.
Hmm I don't really know how to explain why prayers help others, but what I can tell you is that they do. Here's the deal. Even though man #1 was alone and seemingly forgotten, there is a very slim chance that he didn't have ANYONE at home praying for him. Not only did he have those men but also, God knows when one cant be prayed for and I'm sure God would help him out just the same based on the strength of the prayers that were being prayed on behalf of this poor stranded man.. The man with millions of prayers, yes he had a lot but he would be cured the same as the lonely man if they were truly sincere. But truthfully, the real answer to this question is that the millionaire would get better..... solely because he's in civilization with doctors and medicine and hope for recovery, whereas the other man is on an island with no doctors, medicine, or surgary to help his cause.
Yes, praying for others really works. If you have faith that God is real and pray in his name, he will always answer your prayers even if its in an unexpected way. Sometimes it seems that the way God answers prayers is very differint than the answer we want, yet we have to have faith that the answer he provides is ultimately part of his plan. God wants the best for us although sometimes the things he does are hard to recognize as what we need at the time. Often, when God seems to ignore a request he already has it answered and we dont even realize yet. Additionally, when we are unhappy with what God chooses to do, we have to have faith and understand that he could be using your circumstance to draw you closer to Him. It is a proven fact and statistic that the people who have others praying for them heal much more quickly compared to those who do not have anyone praying for them.
If you really believe that having people pray for you helps, then you have to also believe that is influenced by those that pray for others. Look, I have heard all of what you say before. About God always answering prayers and that sometimes the answers are not what you might have wanted. But in my 2 scenarios there is clearly a contradiction. If you believe that God answers prayers for others then He is doing something that He would not have done before if you hadn't prayed for that person, correct or not. Are you not influencing God's decision? Think about it. Also, that God plays favorites based on "popularity" (the number of people praying for someone) and that is not the God I know.
: cwestra Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 18:45:38
If you really believe that having people pray for you helps, then you have to also believe that is influenced by those that pray for others. Look, I have heard all of what you say before. About God always answering prayers and that sometimes the answers are not what you might have wanted. But in my 2 scenarios there is clearly a contradiction. If you believe that God answers prayers for others then He is doing something that He would not have done before if you hadn't prayed for that person, correct or not. Are you not influencing God's decision? Think about it. Also, that God plays favorites based on "popularity" (the number of people praying for someone) and that is not the God I know.
If God actively intervenes in people's lives upon request, then why do things like cancer exist in the first place? Surely the prayer to eradicate it is said billions of times by millions of people each year.
I'm 17. I understand where you are coming from. I have a best friend who is 17 who has terminal Sarcoma. It started in a lump on his leg and has spread to his lungs. Tonight I went to a prayer house for him. There were 100 people. Mostly friends of Cody. We prayed that God could heal him and that he would have a tremendous testimony from this. But what if we never did that prayer house? What if no one knew he was ill? I believe that God knows everything that ever was, ever is, and ever will be. Yes, prayer for others works but i believe that it is in God's majestic plan for each and every one of us that he knows what the final outcome is. Before Adam and Eve sinned, God knew it would happen. Before you lie to your boss tomorrow, He already knows what it's about. He is all knowing. He instructs us to pray for our fellow believers and those who do not believe. By chance and circumstance we did not pray, I believe that he would indeed heal us, indeed strengthen us, and indeed give us the strength to move on. God can do all things with no help at all. There is not cancer, no struggle, no pain too big for my God.
Yes, prayer really works. We should pray for ourselves as well as other people. Of course all things are according to His will.
We pray but leave the results up to God and for me, thats the bottom line. God can heal someone who no one asks Him to if He wishes and not heal someone who everyone asks Him to if He wants. Not my will but thine. So, I'd still say prayer works just maybe not exactly the way one might think. Iow, its not a means for me personally to control a situation but it is a way for me to turn it over to God and trust that He will do what is right and best. I do think we can "plead our case" and I do think he listens but, ultimatley He's the only one who really knows whats best for all involved.
You are all saying essentially the same thing. That you think praying for other works but that God will do what He wants anyway. Think about what you're saying. It is a complete contradiction. You simply can't have it both ways. gumdropboy, I am truly sorry to hear about your friend and wish the best for him, but you essentially are saying that God will do what He wants regardless of whether you pray or not for your friend. The only conclusion is that praying for someone does not work. Logically, it doesn't add up.
Now, what I do believe is that praying for someone makes you feel better about yourself. It makes you feel like maybe you are doing something helpful. That is fine. Just realize that is what it is. If, for example, you are rich and have a terminal disease. Based on your logic, you should just pay millions of people to pray for you so that you have the best chance. God simply does not play favorites, and praying for someone is a form of playing favorites.
I do not intend to come off confrontational here, but I am trying to understand from a logical point of view.
Thanks for all the responses.
cwestra, Peter Jennings was diagnosed with lung cancer the same week that I was. He died three months later and I'm still here. I imagine millions of people prayed for him where only a few prayed for me. I also imagine that Peter was an affluent man, but because I have good insurance, we both had access to the same medical technology.
As far as the power of prayer, if you truly believe it does work then it may to a point. Even if it's just a delusion, it's a harmless one, so why would you want to spoil it for anyone by trying to convince them otherwise? Especially when simple observation of isolated cases is not considered proof and there are likely too many unknown factors to conduct any kind of scientific study.
My motive is certainly not to spoil it for anyone, OneLung. Supose you were approached by a non-believer and the question of praying for others came up. You were asked to support your reason for believing it works and your answer is that it can't hurt to pray, or something to that effect. An answer like this to a non-believer can effect that persons impression of Christianity as a whole. If you pray because it is harmless and might work then does that extend to other parts of our faith? Ask yourself, will this answer hold up in a debate with a non-believer? Are you doing more harm than good with answers like that to non-believers? Christianity needs to be more credit worthy, in my opinion, if we are going to be sucessful in convincing those outside of the faith. This is very important to me. No delusions, no fluff. Just cut to the facts and make a strong case.
: cwestra Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 08:13:00
I do not intend to come off confrontational here, but I am trying to understand from a logical point of view.
Thanks for all the responses.
Human logic has no bearing on what God can and will or will not do- and God tells us to pray and He doesn't lie, as OneLung said you don't know all the circumstances in anothers life as to why one is healed or helped and another is not. You don't know whether the person themselves even believes (d) in The Lord, only God knows mans hearts and what is best in any situation. God loves us all and His gifts are available freely to those who ask, but the right solution is not always what we think it should be!
: cwestra Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 09:26:03
My motive is certainly not to spoil it for anyone, OneLung. Supose you were approached by a non-believer and the question of praying for others came up. You were asked to support your reason for believing it works and your answer is that it can't hurt to pray, or something to that effect. An answer like this to a non-believer can effect that persons impression of Christianity as a whole. If you pray because it is harmless and might work then does that extend to other parts of our faith? Ask yourself, will this answer hold up in a debate with a non-believer? Are you doing more harm than good with answers like that to non-believers? Christianity needs to be more credit worthy, in my opinion, if we are going to be sucessful in convincing those outside of the faith. This is very important to me. No delusions, no fluff. Just cut to the facts and make a strong case.
Well, first of all, I don't speak for the whole of Christianity, I only speak for my own personal beliefs. If you are asking for an answer on a "belief system" level, you need to consult a qualified Theologist.
I know and am friends with many people who you would consider non-believers. I know them as Agnostic and they are comfortable with their belief that things such as God are beyond man's ability to understand. They don't deny any aspect of God, just man's interpretation of Him and his purpose. That is their right and they cause no harm. Many of them study the Bible for it's historical and archaeological value, so they are well versed in Christian beliefs.
Belief requires faith. Anyone who requires proof to have faith doesn't understand the fundamental concept of faith. Therefore, trying to provide proof that prayer works in order to assist in ones conversion to believer is a wasted effort.
Prayer always works, its the results that are inconsistent (in man's terms). You can pray all day long, everyday, for something that will never happen and your prayer was still answered. So, how does prayer "work"?
The answer to your title question, yes.
The answer to your example, no.
Should this example prove true, it is obvious God allowed it to happen. Both these men face the same trial, only their circumstances are different. Paul wrote there is no trial that overtakes us that is not common to every man, and will use that temptation to help us escape. God always wants to bring us to victory, so he is ever attentative in every case.
In the case of the deserted island this man will learn more clearly his utter dependence on God, and not on those around him. In the case of the celebrity he will learn humility, and the necessity of those believers around him. Both very important lessons, for there are those who depend too much on people, and there are those who are too independent.
It is not the number, or weight of prayers that receive from God, but the prayer of faith will save the sick.
The other aspect the example does not take into account is that of intercession. The Holy Spirit is well able to reveal to praying saints the state of the man on the deserted island, and to cause them to pray for him. This has happened many times in our day.
: HeRestoresMyHeart Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 09:35:48
: cwestra Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 08:13:00
I do not intend to come off confrontational here, but I am trying to understand from a logical point of view.
Thanks for all the responses.
Human logic has no bearing on what God can and will or will not do- and God tells us to pray and He doesn't lie, as OneLung said you don't know all the circumstances in anothers life as to why one is healed or helped and another is not. You don't know whether the person themselves even believes (d) in The Lord, only God knows mans hearts and what is best in any situation. God loves us all and His gifts are available freely to those who ask, but the right solution is not always what we think it should be!
This is a typical response and one that I expected to get. I understand that human logic is inferrior to reasoning of God, however, there are also several situations where logic does come into play and help explain situations to us humans. I don't discourage praying and I believe types of praying do work. You say that "God tells us to pray and he does not lie". I never claimed otherwise. I am questioning the (yes I'll say it) logic of praying for others as opposed to praying for oneself, which makes perfect sense. You also go on to say that "only God knows mans hearts and what is best in any situation". That is a correct statement but has nothing to do with my question. If anything it confirms that praying for someone else is not effective. Think about what you're saying instead of just spewing out neutral, feel good, safe expressions like that.
: llewksgood Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 11:48:08
The answer to your title question, yes.
The answer to your example, no.
Should this example prove true, it is obvious God allowed it to happen. Both these men face the same trial, only their circumstances are different. Paul wrote there is no trial that overtakes us that is not common to every man, and will use that temptation to help us escape. God always wants to bring us to victory, so he is ever attentative in every case.
In the case of the deserted island this man will learn more clearly his utter dependence on God, and not on those around him. In the case of the celebrity he will learn humility, and the necessity of those believers around him. Both very important lessons, for there are those who depend too much on people, and there are those who are too independent.
It is not the number, or weight of prayers that receive from God, but the prayer of faith will save the sick.
The other aspect the example does not take into account is that of intercession. The Holy Spirit is well able to reveal to praying saints the state of the man on the deserted island, and to cause them to pray for him. This has happened many times in our day.
I am in complete agreement that these two men have an opportunity to learn from God, lessons based on their unique situations. However, being prayed out of it by others is not one of them. Prayer of faith is important. But I believe you can only do it for yourself. You reference intercession. I do not know much about it but I assume you bring this up because you read about it in the bible. You also, however,state that it "has happened many times in our day". That is a bold statement. How can you be sure? You might be more convincing if you had said you believe it has happened many times in our day. I doubt it can be proven though.
: cwestra Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 13:10:41
: HeRestoresMyHeart Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 09:35:48
: cwestra Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 08:13:00
I do not intend to come off confrontational here, but I am trying to understand from a logical point of view.
Thanks for all the responses.
Human logic has no bearing on what God can and will or will not do- and God tells us to pray and He doesn't lie, as OneLung said you don't know all the circumstances in anothers life as to why one is healed or helped and another is not. You don't know whether the person themselves even believes (d) in The Lord, only God knows mans hearts and what is best in any situation. God loves us all and His gifts are available freely to those who ask, but the right solution is not always what we think it should be!
This is a typical response and one that I expected to get. I understand that human logic is inferrior to reasoning of God, however, there are also several situations where logic does come into play and help explain situations to us humans. I don't discourage praying and I believe types of praying do work. You say that "God tells us to pray and he does not lie". I never claimed otherwise. I am questioning the (yes I'll say it) logic of praying for others as opposed to praying for oneself, which makes perfect sense. You also go on to say that "only God knows mans hearts and what is best in any situation". That is a correct statement but has nothing to do with my question. If anything it confirms that praying for someone else is not effective. Think about what you're saying instead of just spewing out neutral, feel good, safe expressions like that.
My expressions are not feel good and safe they are not mine at all they are what God teaches us and as for spewing be careful at excercising good manners to others- you weren't asked to come here it is public and therefore when you post others are allowed to respond, as are you- but have respect for others when you do and if necessary read the forum rules on the proper way to treat and address other here!
Oh and BTW, if you want to read about the human mind and how it's "logic" applies to God's ways then do some reading in Proverbs- also prayer for other does work and as llewsgood said and as I stated prayers are always answered but the results are not always what we think they should be! God has a plan and purpose in everything and His ways are not our ways so there may be something much more important the just physical healing that He is wanting to accomplish in someone!
I understand how it looks as if we're saying, God's going to do what He's going to do whether we pray or not so why bother but the thing is, our bothering may just have something to do with which way He goes. Who knows. But, we can't control or determine which way Gods going to go nor do we want to because we don't know all things as He does. The big thing to do here is to TRUST. Trust that God knows what is best and that He will do what is best. My praying for knowledge of His will for me and the power to carry that out is actually the best prayer I can personally pray and when praying for others, I do believe its always not my will but thine like my example Jesus gave me and then trust that whatever the outcome is.
: cwestra Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 13:10:41
: HeRestoresMyHeart Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 09:35:48
: cwestra Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 08:13:00
I do not intend to come off confrontational here, but I am trying to understand from a logical point of view.
Thanks for all the responses.
Human logic has no bearing on what God can and will or will not do- and God tells us to pray and He doesn't lie, as OneLung said you don't know all the circumstances in anothers life as to why one is healed or helped and another is not. You don't know whether the person themselves even believes (d) in The Lord, only God knows mans hearts and what is best in any situation. God loves us all and His gifts are available freely to those who ask, but the right solution is not always what we think it should be!
This is a typical response and one that I expected to get. I understand that human logic is inferrior to reasoning of God, however, there are also several situations where logic does come into play and help explain situations to us humans. I don't discourage praying and I believe types of praying do work. You say that "God tells us to pray and he does not lie". I never claimed otherwise. I am questioning the (yes I'll say it) logic of praying for others as opposed to praying for oneself, which makes perfect sense. You also go on to say that "only God knows mans hearts and what is best in any situation". That is a correct statement but has nothing to do with my question. If anything it confirms that praying for someone else is not effective. Think about what you're saying instead of just spewing out neutral, feel good, safe expressions like that.
God doesn't hear the prayer of a Sinner except for one of repentence. Christian people praying for the lost is God's will. He often puts someone on our mind that He wants prayed for. We should also pray for one another and for ourselves. Pray is an important part of a Christian life.
Prayers go along way with God. "The prayer of the righteous avails much."
From your tone and comments, I would say you don't believe in prayer. It's all based on faith.
: HeRestoresMyHeart Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 13:46:25
: cwestra Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 13:10:41
: HeRestoresMyHeart Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 09:35:48
: cwestra Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 08:13:00
I do not intend to come off confrontational here, but I am trying to understand from a logical point of view.
Thanks for all the responses.
Human logic has no bearing on what God can and will or will not do- and God tells us to pray and He doesn't lie, as OneLung said you don't know all the circumstances in anothers life as to why one is healed or helped and another is not. You don't know whether the person themselves even believes (d) in The Lord, only God knows mans hearts and what is best in any situation. God loves us all and His gifts are available freely to those who ask, but the right solution is not always what we think it should be!
This is a typical response and one that I expected to get. I understand that human logic is inferrior to reasoning of God, however, there are also several situations where logic does come into play and help explain situations to us humans. I don't discourage praying and I believe types of praying do work. You say that "God tells us to pray and he does not lie". I never claimed otherwise. I am questioning the (yes I'll say it) logic of praying for others as opposed to praying for oneself, which makes perfect sense. You also go on to say that "only God knows mans hearts and what is best in any situation". That is a correct statement but has nothing to do with my question. If anything it confirms that praying for someone else is not effective. Think about what you're saying instead of just spewing out neutral, feel good, safe expressions like that.
My expressions are not feel good and safe they are not mine at all they are what God teaches us and as for spewing be careful at excercising good manners to others- you weren't asked to come here it is public and therefore when you post others are allowed to respond, as are you- but have respect for others when you do and if necessary read the forum rules on the proper way to treat and address other here!
Oh and BTW, if you want to read about the human mind and how it's "logic" applies to God's ways then do some reading in Proverbs- also prayer for other does work and as llewsgood said and as I stated prayers are always answered but the results are not always what we think they should be! God has a plan and purpose in everything and His ways are not our ways so there may be something much more important the just physical healing that He is wanting to accomplish in someone!
::amen::
: Serenity432001 Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 18:26:53
I understand how it looks as if we're saying, God's going to do what He's going to do whether we pray or not so why bother but the thing is, our bothering may just have something to do with which way He goes. Who knows. But, we can't control or determine which way Gods going to go nor do we want to because we don't know all things as He does. The big thing to do here is to TRUST. Trust that God knows what is best and that He will do what is best. My praying for knowledge of His will for me and the power to carry that out is actually the best prayer I can personally pray and when praying for others, I do believe its always not my will but thine like my example Jesus gave me and then trust that whatever the outcome is.
I am in agreement with what you say regarding praying for knowledge of His will. That I do. What I do not agree on is to pray just in case our bothering actually has an effect. I disagree that it doesn't hurt anything if you do it because "who knows". I feel it hurts the credibility of the Christian religion. I don't know if I am getting my point across here. To me, it is important to support the Christian faith at a level far beyond a "who knows" level. My goal is to be an effective representative to those whose lives I want to help save. Again, I am not trying to be difficult. I am just seeking knowledge.
: Bonnie Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 18:41:09
: cwestra Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 13:10:41
: HeRestoresMyHeart Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 09:35:48
: cwestra Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 08:13:00
I do not intend to come off confrontational here, but I am trying to understand from a logical point of view.
Thanks for all the responses.
Human logic has no bearing on what God can and will or will not do- and God tells us to pray and He doesn't lie, as OneLung said you don't know all the circumstances in anothers life as to why one is healed or helped and another is not. You don't know whether the person themselves even believes (d) in The Lord, only God knows mans hearts and what is best in any situation. God loves us all and His gifts are available freely to those who ask, but the right solution is not always what we think it should be!
This is a typical response and one that I expected to get. I understand that human logic is inferrior to reasoning of God, however, there are also several situations where logic does come into play and help explain situations to us humans. I don't discourage praying and I believe types of praying do work. You say that "God tells us to pray and he does not lie". I never claimed otherwise. I am questioning the (yes I'll say it) logic of praying for others as opposed to praying for oneself, which makes perfect sense. You also go on to say that "only God knows mans hearts and what is best in any situation". That is a correct statement but has nothing to do with my question. If anything it confirms that praying for someone else is not effective. Think about what you're saying instead of just spewing out neutral, feel good, safe expressions like that.
God doesn't hear the prayer of a Sinner except for one of repentence. Christian people praying for the lost is God's will. He often puts someone on our mind that He wants prayed for. We should also pray for one another and for ourselves. Pray is an important part of a Christian life.
Prayers go along way with God. "The prayer of the righteous avails much."
From your tone and comments, I would say you don't believe in prayer. It's all based on faith.
Bonnie, how can you conclude that I don't believe in prayer. I have been very clear that I pray. I concentrate on praying for guidance, gratitude, forgiveness mainly. All things that God can do for me. Call it selfish if you like. I just feel that if you want something you should be asking for it yourself, not letting someone else pray it for you. I will admit to you that I do pray for others at times. I just have a hard time believing that it does any good.
You say above that God often puts someone on our minds that he wants us to pray for. How do you know this?
: cwestra Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 19:28:19
: Bonnie Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 18:41:09
: cwestra Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 13:10:41
: HeRestoresMyHeart Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 09:35:48
: cwestra Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 08:13:00
I do not intend to come off confrontational here, but I am trying to understand from a logical point of view.
Thanks for all the responses.
Human logic has no bearing on what God can and will or will not do- and God tells us to pray and He doesn't lie, as OneLung said you don't know all the circumstances in anothers life as to why one is healed or helped and another is not. You don't know whether the person themselves even believes (d) in The Lord, only God knows mans hearts and what is best in any situation. God loves us all and His gifts are available freely to those who ask, but the right solution is not always what we think it should be!
This is a typical response and one that I expected to get. I understand that human logic is inferrior to reasoning of God, however, there are also several situations where logic does come into play and help explain situations to us humans. I don't discourage praying and I believe types of praying do work. You say that "God tells us to pray and he does not lie". I never claimed otherwise. I am questioning the (yes I'll say it) logic of praying for others as opposed to praying for oneself, which makes perfect sense. You also go on to say that "only God knows mans hearts and what is best in any situation". That is a correct statement but has nothing to do with my question. If anything it confirms that praying for someone else is not effective. Think about what you're saying instead of just spewing out neutral, feel good, safe expressions like that.
God doesn't hear the prayer of a Sinner except for one of repentence. Christian people praying for the lost is God's will. He often puts someone on our mind that He wants prayed for. We should also pray for one another and for ourselves. Pray is an important part of a Christian life.
Prayers go along way with God. "The prayer of the righteous avails much."
From your tone and comments, I would say you don't believe in prayer. It's all based on faith.
Bonnie, how can you conclude that I don't believe in prayer. I have been very clear that I pray. I concentrate on praying for guidance, gratitude, forgiveness mainly. All things that God can do for me. Call it selfish if you like. I just feel that if you want something you should be asking for it yourself, not letting someone else pray it for you. I will admit to you that I do pray for others at times. I just have a hard time believing that it does any good.
You say above that God often puts someone on our minds that he wants us to pray for. How do you know this?
Because I have experienced it many times.
If you are sincerely seeking knowledge God will give it to you. Human logic will never prove anything about God; for the wisdom of this world is foolishness to him. It's all based on faith.
: Bonnie Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 19:37:30
If you are sincerely seeking knowledge God will give it to you. Human logic will never prove anything about God; for the wisdom of this world is foolishness to him. It's all based on faith.
Faith you say? Can I presume, then, that your belief in God is based entirely on faith?
: cwestra Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 20:55:10
: Bonnie Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 19:37:30
If you are sincerely seeking knowledge God will give it to you. Human logic will never prove anything about God; for the wisdom of this world is foolishness to him. It's all based on faith.
Faith you say? Can I presume, then, that your belief in God is based entirely on faith?
What kind of question is that? Everyone's belief in God is faith based. How could it possibly be based on anything else?
: cwestra Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 14:29:28
Does praying for others really work? Take, for example, the following 2 scenarios.
1) A guy gets stranded on a deserted Island. He was a well-liked guy who always did work in the name of God. He is now all by himself, however, and is virtually forgotten about after many years go by.
2) Another guy is a well-known and well-liked celebrity. He is also known as a loving person who is always doing good in the name of God. He us constantly on TV and is watched by millions.
Both guys then get a terminal form of cancer. The celebrity guy ends up having millions of people praying for him to recover but the lonely guy on the island has no prayers coming into God for him. If praying for someone else is actually effective, then the only conclusion would be that the celebrity has a much higher chance of being healed than the guy on the island. Is God, then being influenced by us? Will the guy on the island receive less consideration from God than a celebrity who knows millions? God loves everyone equal so he should not discriminate based on the number of prayers the person gets. Am I missing something here?
Think of the pray Jesus taught THE LORDS PRAYER .
its the correct way to pray. "Thy will be done " Not our will.
God loves the person on that lonly island as much as he does
the more popular fellow.
Gods will be done in both cases.
Gods will be done because only he knows what these two individuals truly need.
God hears believers prayers if one prays or ten thousand pray .
we pray Gods will be done not our's
Good question. I'll take a stab at it...I think that God loves real, heart felt prayer. He is pure, and the purer and more loving the prayer, the better He likes it. He may have a special purpose for not granting the request, but He hears all heart felt prayers, whether it comes from one, or many.
Now, God is also THE judge. He knows our circumstances. If the guy on the island is all alone, God knows that. Yet a heart felt prayer from the one guy who is alone and forgotten by the world carries as much water as many prayers, for God is a just judge.
::prayinghard::
: cwestra Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 20:55:10Faith you say?
Can I presume, then, that your belief in God is based entirely on faith?
Umm yea! thats how its supposed to be, what is yours based on?
: cwestra Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 19:15:29
: Serenity432001 Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 18:26:53
I understand how it looks as if we're saying, God's going to do what He's going to do whether we pray or not so why bother but the thing is, our bothering may just have something to do with which way He goes. Who knows. But, we can't control or determine which way Gods going to go nor do we want to because we don't know all things as He does. The big thing to do here is to TRUST. Trust that God knows what is best and that He will do what is best. My praying for knowledge of His will for me and the power to carry that out is actually the best prayer I can personally pray and when praying for others, I do believe its always not my will but thine like my example Jesus gave me and then trust that whatever the outcome is.
I am in agreement with what you say regarding praying for knowledge of His will. That I do. What I do not agree on is to pray just in case our bothering actually has an effect. I disagree that it doesn't hurt anything if you do it because "who knows". I feel it hurts the credibility of the Christian religion. I don't know if I am getting my point across here. To me, it is important to support the Christian faith at a level far beyond a "who knows" level. My goal is to be an effective representative to those whose lives I want to help save. Again, I am not trying to be difficult. I am just seeking knowledge.
I certainly understand what you're saying and it makes sense to me. The prayer I suggested of knowledge of His will and the power to carry it out is the very best one, imo, to be an effective representative to those we want to help----excellent way to state it. I'd say once they know and understand that it is about trust, trusing in Him and not in myself and He does give us prayer to tap into that power. Prayer is more for me, I think to give me something to do because its human nature to want to actually do something but its the letting go where the power really lies. I like you and am glad you're here and appreciate your way of sharing. Thanks.
: cwestra Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 20:55:10
: Bonnie Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 19:37:30
If you are sincerely seeking knowledge God will give it to you. Human logic will never prove anything about God; for the wisdom of this world is foolishness to him. It's all based on faith.
Faith you say? Can I presume, then, that your belief in God is based entirely on faith?
It started that way but grew over the years as I experienced His love in many ways. Our faith grows because of our willingness to submit our will to His. Watching Him work in our lives is awesome!
David said, yeah though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil for He is with me.
: OneLung Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 21:37:32
: cwestra Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 20:55:10
: Bonnie Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 19:37:30
If you are sincerely seeking knowledge God will give it to you. Human logic will never prove anything about God; for the wisdom of this world is foolishness to him. It's all based on faith.
Faith you say? Can I presume, then, that your belief in God is based entirely on faith?
What kind of question is that? Everyone's belief in God is faith based. How could it possibly be based on anything else?
Really? 100% faith?
: ex cathedra Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 22:16:26
: cwestra Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 14:29:28
Does praying for others really work? Take, for example, the following 2 scenarios.
1) A guy gets stranded on a deserted Island. He was a well-liked guy who always did work in the name of God. He is now all by himself, however, and is virtually forgotten about after many years go by.
2) Another guy is a well-known and well-liked celebrity. He is also known as a loving person who is always doing good in the name of God. He us constantly on TV and is watched by millions.
Both guys then get a terminal form of cancer. The celebrity guy ends up having millions of people praying for him to recover but the lonely guy on the island has no prayers coming into God for him. If praying for someone else is actually effective, then the only conclusion would be that the celebrity has a much higher chance of being healed than the guy on the island. Is God, then being influenced by us? Will the guy on the island receive less consideration from God than a celebrity who knows millions? God loves everyone equal so he should not discriminate based on the number of prayers the person gets. Am I missing something here?
Think of the pray Jesus taught THE LORDS PRAYER .
its the correct way to pray. "Thy will be done " Not our will.
God loves the person on that lonly island as much as he does
the more popular fellow.
Gods will be done in both cases.
Gods will be done because only he knows what these two individuals truly need.
God hears believers prayers if one prays or ten thousand pray .
we pray Gods will be done not our's
Yes. I agree.
: HeRestoresMyHeart Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 06:37:43
: cwestra Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 20:55:10Faith you say?
Can I presume, then, that your belief in God is based entirely on faith?
Umm yea! thats how its supposed to be, what is yours based on?
I propose that everyones faith is, and should be, based on a blend of proof and faith.
: cwestra Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 07:23:20
: HeRestoresMyHeart Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 06:37:43
: cwestra Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 20:55:10Faith you say?
Can I presume, then, that your belief in God is based entirely on faith?
Umm yea! thats how its supposed to be, what is yours based on?
I propose that everyones faith is, and should be, based on a blend of proof and faith.
Perhaps yours is, however I did not believe because of proof, I believed through faith- yes I have seen proof since then but that is not why I believed nor is it why others should believe (faith is believing when you do not see proof and it is what God asks us for!
Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for
and certain of what we do not see.
Luke 19:40
if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out
Now if you want to see any kind of proof before you choose to believe then just look all around you at the wonderful things He created- the sky, the trees, the waters, the mountains......... I needed no more proof to believe in my Father because I felt Him pulling at my heart even before I knew who He was!
: cwestra Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 07:20:07
: OneLung Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 21:37:32
: cwestra Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 20:55:10
: Bonnie Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 19:37:30
If you are sincerely seeking knowledge God will give it to you. Human logic will never prove anything about God; for the wisdom of this world is foolishness to him. It's all based on faith.
Faith you say? Can I presume, then, that your belief in God is based entirely on faith?
What kind of question is that? Everyone's belief in God is faith based. How could it possibly be based on anything else?
Really? 100% faith?
Well, the belief in "One God" has been around for over 4000 years and makes up the belief system of about 1/3 of the worlds population today. All without any proof. So yes, it is 100% faith.
: HeRestoresMyHeart Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 07:57:16
: cwestra Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 07:23:20
: HeRestoresMyHeart Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 06:37:43
: cwestra Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 20:55:10Faith you say?
Can I presume, then, that your belief in God is based entirely on faith?
Umm yea! thats how its supposed to be, what is yours based on?
I propose that everyones faith is, and should be, based on a blend of proof and faith.
Perhaps yours is, however I did not believe because of proof, I believed through faith- yes I have seen proof since then but that is not why I believed nor is it why others should believe (faith is believing when you do not see proof and it is what God asks us for!
Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.
Luke 19:40
if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out
Now if you want to see any kind of proof before you choose to believe then just look all around you at the wonderful things He created- the sky, the trees, the waters, the mountains......... I needed no more proof to believe in my Father because I felt Him pulling at my heart even before I knew who He was!
I am not saying there is no proof. I do agree there are magnificent things that I can only explain by the existance of God. My proposition is that everyone, even you, bases some portion of their belief on proof or evidence. The existance of Jesus is evidence, as are the books in the bible. Let me ask you this. If someone came up to you today and said they were Jesus Christ returning to earth, would you believe that person? I'll wait for your reply.
: cwestra Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 08:11:14
: HeRestoresMyHeart Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 07:57:16
: cwestra Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 07:23:20
: HeRestoresMyHeart Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 06:37:43
: cwestra Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 20:55:10Faith you say?
Can I presume, then, that your belief in God is based entirely on faith?
Umm yea! thats how its supposed to be, what is yours based on?
I propose that everyones faith is, and should be, based on a blend of proof and faith.
Perhaps yours is, however I did not believe because of proof, I believed through faith- yes I have seen proof since then but that is not why I believed nor is it why others should believe (faith is believing when you do not see proof and it is what God asks us for!
Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.
Luke 19:40
if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out
Now if you want to see any kind of proof before you choose to believe then just look all around you at the wonderful things He created- the sky, the trees, the waters, the mountains......... I needed no more proof to believe in my Father because I felt Him pulling at my heart even before I knew who He was!
I am not saying there is no proof. I do agree there are magnificent things that I can only explain by the existance of God. My proposition is that everyone, even you, bases some portion of their belief on proof or evidence. The existance of Jesus is evidence, as are the books in the bible. Let me ask you this. If someone came up to you today and said they were Jesus Christ returning to earth, would you believe that person? I'll wait for your reply.
No I wouldn't believe them because the Word says exactly how that will happen and instructs us to not be deceived, but that has nothing to do with why I believe in God to begin with- those things I learned after I chose to believe not before!
I also have no evidence personally of Jesus coming to the world (I have never seen Him with my eyes, although I long to with all of my heart) aside from the Bible and what I have been told- which are not really evidences of themselves (and there are plenty of others who unfortunately have seen these same things and yet do not want to believe because they do not view these things as proof) yet I still believe and I believe because I have faith that the One who has spoken to my heart since I was a child is and will always be and if I never saw another thing happen during my life to show proof of that I would still believe!!!!!
: cwestra Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 08:11:14
I am not saying there is no proof. I do agree there are magnificent things that I can only explain by the existance of God. My proposition is that everyone, even you, bases some portion of their belief on proof or evidence. The existance of Jesus is evidence, as are the books in the bible. Let me ask you this. If someone came up to you today and said they were Jesus Christ returning to earth, would you believe that person? I'll wait for your reply.
No. That would require proof beyond my ability to logically dismiss. I am not one of those people who hang on every word written in the Bible as if it were some
absolute truth. I understand it is highly metophoric and subjective. Some people do though, and that is their right.
: HeRestoresMyHeart Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 08:18:19
: cwestra Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 08:11:14
: HeRestoresMyHeart Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 07:57:16
: cwestra Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 07:23:20
: HeRestoresMyHeart Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 06:37:43
: cwestra Mon Feb 23, 2009 - 20:55:10Faith you say?
Can I presume, then, that your belief in God is based entirely on faith?
Umm yea! thats how its supposed to be, what is yours based on?
I propose that everyones faith is, and should be, based on a blend of proof and faith.
Perhaps yours is, however I did not believe because of proof, I believed through faith- yes I have seen proof since then but that is not why I believed nor is it why others should believe (faith is believing when you do not see proof and it is what God asks us for!
Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.
Luke 19:40
if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out
Now if you want to see any kind of proof before you choose to believe then just look all around you at the wonderful things He created- the sky, the trees, the waters, the mountains......... I needed no more proof to believe in my Father because I felt Him pulling at my heart even before I knew who He was!
I am not saying there is no proof. I do agree there are magnificent things that I can only explain by the existance of God. My proposition is that everyone, even you, bases some portion of their belief on proof or evidence. The existance of Jesus is evidence, as are the books in the bible. Let me ask you this. If someone came up to you today and said they were Jesus Christ returning to earth, would you believe that person? I'll wait for your reply.
No I wouldn't believe them because the Word says exactly how that will happen and instructs us to not be deceived, but that has nothing to do with why I believe in God to begin with- those things I learned after I chose to believe not before!
I also have no evidence personally of Jesus coming to the world (I have never seen Him with my eyes, although I long to with all of my heart) aside from the Bible and what I have been told- which are not really evidences of themselves (and there are plenty of others who unfortunately have seen these same things and yet do not want to believe because they do not view these things as proof) yet I still believe and I believe because I have faith that the One who has spoken to my heart since I was a child is and will always be and if I never saw another thing happen during my life to show proof of that I would still believe!!!!!
I am no biblical expert, but I do understand that someday there will be a "second coming". What does the bible say will happen during this event?
: cwestra Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 08:49:22
I am no biblical expert, but I do understand that someday there will be a "second coming". What does the bible say will happen during this event?
Matthew 24:29-3129) "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30) "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see [58]the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31) "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
Read the entire chapter of Matthew 24 as it contains the most details as to what is to come!
just heard a song which can be applicable I think to this thread called "Sometimes Miracles Hide" by Bruce Carrolll!
http://www.allthelyrics.com/lyrics/bruce_carroll/sometimes_miracles_hide-lyrics-30736.html
Does prayer "work?" Depends on what you mean by "work."
Does prayer influence God? Yes.
Does prayer confine or compel God? No.
The scenarios in the OP are irrelevant to a large degree because they assume that dying from cancer is a great tragedy; something that a loving God would always want to prevent.
Such is not the case.
Conversely, they assume that staying alive is the preferred course of action and that if I don't have anyone praying for me, then I lose.
Again, the assumption is flawed. Dying isn't the worst thing that could happen to you, and in many cases is a good thing.
::amen::
: HRoberson Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 21:41:52
Does prayer "work?" Depends on what you mean by "work."
Does prayer influence God? Yes.
Does prayer confine or compel God? No.
The scenarios in the OP are irrelevant to a large degree because they assume that dying from cancer is a great tragedy; something that a loving God would always want to prevent.
Such is not the case.
Conversely, they assume that staying alive is the preferred course of action and that if I don't have anyone praying for me, then I lose.
Again, the assumption is flawed. Dying isn't the worst thing that could happen to you, and in many cases is a good thing.
I must disagree with your statement that the scenarios are irrelavent. I am not stating at all whether dying is tragic or not, simply that the number of people praying for them does not make a difference. The thing being prayed for is what is irrelavent. Let's say then that they are all praying for their death instead.
I am interested in your elaboration on your belief that praying does influence God, though.
: cwestra Sat Feb 28, 2009 - 16:57:11
: HRoberson Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 21:41:52
Does prayer "work?" Depends on what you mean by "work."
Does prayer influence God? Yes.
Does prayer confine or compel God? No.
The scenarios in the OP are irrelevant to a large degree because they assume that dying from cancer is a great tragedy; something that a loving God would always want to prevent.
Such is not the case.
Conversely, they assume that staying alive is the preferred course of action and that if I don't have anyone praying for me, then I lose.
Again, the assumption is flawed. Dying isn't the worst thing that could happen to you, and in many cases is a good thing.
I must disagree with your statement that the scenarios are irrelavent. I am not stating at all whether dying is tragic or not, simply that the number of people praying for them does not make a difference. The thing being prayed for is what is irrelavent. Let's say then that they are all praying for their death instead.
I am interested in your elaboration on your belief that praying does influence God, though.
You're allowed to disagree.
People praying may or may not make a difference - we don't know which in any given situation. The problem, and the reason your situations are irrelevant to the question is that we never know what God knows. We make a lot of assumptions which may or may not be true, and it is possible to set up logical conundrums to stump folks - "If God is all powerful, could he make a rock too heavy for him to pick up?"
It does not matter what the situation is. We pray and ask God for what we would like to see happen. God makes the final decision based on what He wants to have happen. We might disagree with it, but He's God.
God says our prayers influence Him, and we have evidence that they do. What more elaboration would you like?
: cwestra Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 14:29:28
Does praying for others really work? Take, for example, the following 2 scenarios.
1) A guy gets stranded on a deserted Island. He was a well-liked guy who always did work in the name of God. He is now all by himself, however, and is virtually forgotten about after many years go by.
2) Another guy is a well-known and well-liked celebrity. He is also known as a loving person who is always doing good in the name of God. He us constantly on TV and is watched by millions.
Both guys then get a terminal form of cancer. The celebrity guy ends up having millions of people praying for him to recover but the lonely guy on the island has no prayers coming into God for him. If praying for someone else is actually effective, then the only conclusion would be that the celebrity has a much higher chance of being healed than the guy on the island. Is God, then being influenced by us? Will the guy on the island receive less consideration from God than a celebrity who knows millions? God loves everyone equal so he should not discriminate based on the number of prayers the person gets. Am I missing something here?
As you said two people are both true child of God? Then God is in-charge of them. Our God is a God of love and compassion, perfect in justice and i dont think that He shows discrimination, however if He listen abd bless the other and the other not so what it is to us? He can do as He pleases; we are just created beings. Yes sometimes we feel things are really unfair like the rich and the poor, the healthy and the sick or the good looking and ugly etc. can we do something about it? I think no. Because the final say is with the Lord.
: jessbuds Sun Mar 01, 2009 - 07:24:47
: cwestra Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 14:29:28
Does praying for others really work? Take, for example, the following 2 scenarios.
1) A guy gets stranded on a deserted Island. He was a well-liked guy who always did work in the name of God. He is now all by himself, however, and is virtually forgotten about after many years go by.
2) Another guy is a well-known and well-liked celebrity. He is also known as a loving person who is always doing good in the name of God. He us constantly on TV and is watched by millions.
Both guys then get a terminal form of cancer. The celebrity guy ends up having millions of people praying for him to recover but the lonely guy on the island has no prayers coming into God for him. If praying for someone else is actually effective, then the only conclusion would be that the celebrity has a much higher chance of being healed than the guy on the island. Is God, then being influenced by us? Will the guy on the island receive less consideration from God than a celebrity who knows millions? God loves everyone equal so he should not discriminate based on the number of prayers the person gets. Am I missing something here?
As you said two people are both true child of God? Then God is in-charge of them. Our God is a God of love and compassion, perfect in justice and i dont think that He shows discrimination, however if He listen abd bless the other and the other not so what it is to us? He can do as He pleases; we are just created beings. Yes sometimes we feel things are really unfair like the rich and the poor, the healthy and the sick or the good looking and ugly etc. can we do something about it? I think no. Because the final say is with the Lord.
Jessbuds, your post reminded me of these Scriptures ~
Isaiah 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
JOB 38
1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
: HRoberson Sat Feb 28, 2009 - 18:33:42
: cwestra Sat Feb 28, 2009 - 16:57:11
: HRoberson Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 21:41:52
Does prayer "work?" Depends on what you mean by "work."
Does prayer influence God? Yes.
Does prayer confine or compel God? No.
The scenarios in the OP are irrelevant to a large degree because they assume that dying from cancer is a great tragedy; something that a loving God would always want to prevent.
Such is not the case.
Conversely, they assume that staying alive is the preferred course of action and that if I don't have anyone praying for me, then I lose.
Again, the assumption is flawed. Dying isn't the worst thing that could happen to you, and in many cases is a good thing.
I must disagree with your statement that the scenarios are irrelavent. I am not stating at all whether dying is tragic or not, simply that the number of people praying for them does not make a difference. The thing being prayed for is what is irrelavent. Let's say then that they are all praying for their death instead.
I am interested in your elaboration on your belief that praying does influence God, though.
You're allowed to disagree.
People praying may or may not make a difference - we don't know which in any given situation. The problem, and the reason your situations are irrelevant to the question is that we never know what God knows. We make a lot of assumptions which may or may not be true, and it is possible to set up logical conundrums to stump folks - "If God is all powerful, could he make a rock too heavy for him to pick up?"
It does not matter what the situation is. We pray and ask God for what we would like to see happen. God makes the final decision based on what He wants to have happen. We might disagree with it, but He's God.
God says our prayers influence Him, and we have evidence that they do. What more elaboration would you like?
I am interested in where we are instructed that our prayers do, in fact, influence Him. I presume it is in the bible. What location have you found that refer to this? Thanks.
James 5:16
Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.
Ephesians 6:18
And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.
Psalms 102:17
He will respond to the prayer of the destitute;
he will not despise their plea
Proverbs 15:29
The LORD is far from the wicked
but he hears the prayer of the righteous
Matthew 21:12
If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.
: cwestra Sun Mar 01, 2009 - 17:59:34
: HRoberson Sat Feb 28, 2009 - 18:33:42
: cwestra Sat Feb 28, 2009 - 16:57:11
: HRoberson Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 21:41:52
Does prayer "work?" Depends on what you mean by "work."
Does prayer influence God? Yes.
Does prayer confine or compel God? No.
The scenarios in the OP are irrelevant to a large degree because they assume that dying from cancer is a great tragedy; something that a loving God would always want to prevent.
Such is not the case.
Conversely, they assume that staying alive is the preferred course of action and that if I don't have anyone praying for me, then I lose.
Again, the assumption is flawed. Dying isn't the worst thing that could happen to you, and in many cases is a good thing.
I must disagree with your statement that the scenarios are irrelavent. I am not stating at all whether dying is tragic or not, simply that the number of people praying for them does not make a difference. The thing being prayed for is what is irrelavent. Let's say then that they are all praying for their death instead.
I am interested in your elaboration on your belief that praying does influence God, though.
You're allowed to disagree.
People praying may or may not make a difference - we don't know which in any given situation. The problem, and the reason your situations are irrelevant to the question is that we never know what God knows. We make a lot of assumptions which may or may not be true, and it is possible to set up logical conundrums to stump folks - "If God is all powerful, could he make a rock too heavy for him to pick up?"
It does not matter what the situation is. We pray and ask God for what we would like to see happen. God makes the final decision based on what He wants to have happen. We might disagree with it, but He's God.
God says our prayers influence Him, and we have evidence that they do. What more elaboration would you like?
I am interested in where we are instructed that our prayers do, in fact, influence Him. I presume it is in the bible. What location have you found that refer to this? Thanks.
"Ask, and it shall be given to you; seek, and you will find."
"The Lord does not hear the prayers of sinners."
(the presumption being that He does hear the righteous)
"And shall not God avenge his elect, that cry to him day and night, and yet he is longsuffering over them?"
"And Cornelius said, Four days ago, until this hour, I was keeping the ninth hour of prayer in my house; and behold, a man stood before me in bright apparel, and saith, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God."
"with all prayer and supplication praying at all seasons in the Spirit, and watching thereunto in all perseverance and supplication for all the saints, and on my behalf, that utterance may be given unto me in opening my mouth, to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak."
"In nothing be anxious; but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall guard your hearts and your thoughts in Christ Jesus."
"Continue stedfastly in prayer, watching therein with thanksgiving; withal praying for us also, that God may open unto us a door for the word, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds; that I may make it manifest, as I ought to speak..."
"Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: and the prayer of faith shall save him that is sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, it shall be forgiven him. Confess therefore your sins one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The supplication of a righteous man availeth much in its working. Elijah was a man of like passions with us, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain; and it rained not on the earth for three years and six months. And he prayed again; and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit."
Dear cwestra, in praying for someone we are reaching to God in fellowship with Him as to His will being done. Even praying for oneself does not always produce the desired results as with the Apostle Paul praying three times to have the thorn in his flesh removed from him, because it was God's will that it remain.
2 Corinthians 12:7-9
7 - - - there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.
God does give gifts of healing to the sick. Are all healed, or does God take some unto Himself regardless of our prayers? In praying for someone, are we reaching out in love toward them? Of course, but let us always be mindful that it is God that accomplishes anything done and gets the glory; not us.
We are told in James 5:16: Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man (Who are the righteous? All in Christ) availeth much. Does our prayers move God to act upon certain things? Yes according to His will.
Even Jesus prayed for God's will in considering His own death. Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. Many fail to read the whole story in scripture concerning prayer. 1 John 5:14. And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask anything ACCORDING TO HIS WILL, he heareth us.
Shall we do things anything of our own thinking? Elijah didn't. The things he did and prayed for were told him of the Lord to pray for.
1 Kings 18:24 And call ye on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the LORD: and the God that answereth by fire, let him be God. And all the people answered and said, It is well spoken.
1 Kings 18:36 And it came to pass at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word.
In Jesus' name - larry2