Looking at the bigger picture, the world is evil. Children of God are in the world but are not of the world. We have to function in an evil world. This is hard for me to accept a lot of times as I am very politically active and I cannot muster a good sense of humor.
I have debated the homeschool vs public in my mind for a long time. We recently moved to a new city where the schools reflect stronger moral values than our former city, which in my opinion was extremely corrupt. Our state board of education has mandated a system of upholding moral values in the classroom called \"Charater Counts\" where noble values such as honesty, courage, and respect are discussed and encouraged. In our former city mere lip service was paid to these values and they preferred to teach that Heather has two mommies. In the new one there are billboards proclaiming that \"(Such and Such Town) is a Character Counts Community\" and extreme social agendas would not be considered. Our daughter's teacher has fine moral character and has very high expectations.
What I think it is boiling down to is that our public schools have fallen prey to political agendas and socialism on the grand scale. But there are some schools and teachers who pay lip service to that and try to do what they believe is right. And they can do so since the state cannot be in every classroom at every moment. (I am sure it is looking for ways to so, however.)
I do not homeschool because I don't think I would be good at it. I am trying to adjust to the attitude that my daughter must learn to be in the world and not of it. This is really difficult because mothers want to naturally shield and protect. This is what prompted our move to a more morally conservative city! Yet, I must remember that many of those who are morally conservative may still be of the world. I have to teach and train my children in the ways of God and pray they will choose them when they are grown.
MaSouth
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Richard @ Oct. 11 2002,10:01)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I have a question for the group.
There is a small but vocal group in our church who proclaim that the Public School system is evil and that anyone who works for, teaches in, supports, or sends their kids to Public Schools need to repent of their sin, quit their jobs, and/or homeschool their children.
Is this a common viewpoint amongst homeschoolers?
I always assumed that most homeschoolers did so because they felt that was what is best for their own children and families. I had no idea, until recently, that there are militant homeschoolers.
Am I out of touch?
Richard[/quote]
richard:
you are in touch, they are slanderous nuts. that's fact, not opinion! i challenge them to truthfully declare evil never appears in their home. pass it on to them.
dj :angry: (not feeling patient with those who have insulted the high quality of my working peers and many of my students. we're church of Christ and baptist heavy in our public school)
Just read this this evening and thought I'd share it. I believe it's as true today as when it was written:
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]A memorable change must be made in the system of education and knowledge must become so general as to raise the lower ranks of society nearer to the higher. The education of a nation instead of being confined to a few schools and universities for the instruction of the few, must become the national care and expense for the formation of the many--John Adams[/quote]
What remains true is that education is the key to our continued progress as a nation. And as such, it is indeed the place of the government to make a quality education available to everyone.
What if all the homeschoolers agreed to 'take on' one additional child...
Skip,
To simply take history certainly has to be selective doesn't it? We had an agriculture based society where children were educated at home. Why do you think public schools came about? Public schools didn't appear in a vacuum. They came about because the people of those times wanted them. Have they grown into a monster? Yes, but I don't believe history teaches us public schools are evil, just that people are.
The society at that time was relatively simple. The knowledge they needed to get a job etc. was much less then it is today. Most children simply continued what their father did, which would make home school logical. The parents didn't need greater knowledge then they had. How many of us followed in our fathers footsteps? How many of us can keep up with technology? How many of us should teach our children the math skills etc. needed?
The dynamic has changed in our country so I don't see history as being relevant. Today not going to college can really hinder your ability to sustain a living standard, just ask the working poor. The people of history did not even go to college. To me you ar comparing apples to oranges.
The reason I post is we planned on home schooling our children but the home schooling crowed and the attitude we experienced sent us in a different direction. So I post to say home schoolers do you want more people to do it or less? Are you more interested in showing your superiority or helping people? I did not experience help.
I've been following the 'story' of government schools pretty closely for the last five years.
Forty or more years ago the story was quite different, but now its nothing less than shocking. Some of the statistics on dropouts and standardized test scores point toward the label \"poorly managed daycare\" rather than \"school\".
But read it for yourself.
A small sample of government schools in the news...
In their own words...
(Entire articles, and more articles, are available upon request.)
\"...Parents who say they don't want their children being graded, labeled and compared are challenging Seattle Public Schools' mandatory use of report cards...\"
--\"Parents appeal required use of report cards\", June 12, 2002, SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER
Palm Beach County high school students taking a new standardized history exam this week need to answer just over half of the 100 questions correctly to get an A grade on the test; to earn a B, only 39 correct answers are required...\"
''Half right in history gets A\", Palm Beach Post, May 30, 2002
Nearly six in 10 of the nation's high school seniors lack even a basic knowledge of American history, a finding virtually unchanged from seven years earlier, according to results released today from a widely respected national test. The results from the National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP)...
--\"Students' History Knowledge Lacking, Test Finds\", May 9, 2002, Washington Post
\"Number of 'failing' schools hits 7,200 ... out of 91,000\"
--USA Today
\"...Now comes word that public school fourth graders in the U.S. still can't read very well. In fact, the latest statistics just released last week show an astounding 63 percent of black fourth graders can barely read at all. And 60 percent of all the poor children in this country read well below the basic level.
The new secretary of education, Roderick Paige, is quoted as saying that after spending $125 billion in Title I money, the federal government has achieved basically nothing in poor school districts...\"
--April 17, 2001, By Bill O'Reilly, Fox News
\"LOS ANGELES (AP) -- Officials in the nation's second largest school district will continue to advance failing students, saying tens of thousands would flunk next year if the practice was scrapped.
About 350,000 students in the Los Angeles Unified School District -- or half the 711,000 total -- would be held back a grade next year if social promotion was dropped, district leaders said.\"
--The Associated Press, 12/1/99
\"Public school administrators, long the enthusiastic adherents of a \"Just Say No!\" policy on drug use, appear to have a new motto for the parents of certain tiny soldiers in the war on drugs: \"Medicate or Else!\" It is a new and troubling twist in the psychiatric drugs saga, in which public schools have begun to issue ultimatums to parents of hard-to-handle kids, saying they will not allow students to attend conventional classes unless they are medicated. In the most extreme cases, parents unwilling to give their kids drugs are being reported by their schools to local offices of Child Protective Services, the implication being that by withholding drugs, the parents are guilty of neglect.\"
Just say yes to Ritalin!, By Lawrence H. Diller, M.D., Sept. 25, 2000
Kevin-
Obviously, you can read. You can write. You can spell. You are able to hold down a job. Operate a computer. You can make change. Figure a tip. Understand enough history to make informed voting decisions. You have (presumably) received basic vaccinations and vision and hearing screenings.
These are the things a public education system is supposed to provide. The whole point of our system is to offer a basic education to EVERY child - including poor children, disabled children, abused children, the children of unschooled parents, and just plain children.
Those who advocate discarding public education are apparently willing to leave a large portion of our population illiterate. Do you actually believe that would be better for the country as a whole?
Yes, our education system fails many children. No one can argue that it doesn't. Yes, private schools or home schools can very often educate individual children better than the public school can. But private schools and home schools CANNOT educate ALL children better than a public program.
That's the whole point of federal programs - education, welfare, defense. That as a community we can provide better for the WHOLE GROUP than we can provide for the WHOLE GROUP as individuals.
Rather than deciding that you don't want to pay to educate the poor (which is exactly what you're saying when you say you don't want to pay to educate other people's children), why not try to improve the system we've got?
PatriciaRedstone-
Are we saying then that there are two 'types' of education? Reading/writing/math v. philosophy/poetry? Or that the entire 'school' model no longer fits and needs to be scrapped?
In my view, the essential reason for public education is the idea that every child, no matter their circumstance, deserves to be able to read. Their mere residence in this country gives them the right to a basic education, whether or not they can pay for it, or will use it to advantage, or in any other way deserve it.
The children of this country don't have to earn a minimal education-they get it for free.
Sort of like the way children of God don't have to earn salvation-we get it for free.
Of course, the model may well need changing. But I don't believe the notion of education for every child is outdated at all.
Kari.
Spurly-I'm sorry to hear of your school background. I was in much the same situation as a child. But I see that as a failure of the individual school itself, not as a failure of the idea of education for all.
Skip-there are very many children who could not afford any education they had to purchase. Please tell me straight out-if you privatize education, without tax funding (which is merely the way the community pitches in)-will the very poor be educated? Yes or No?
Privatization is not the cure-all some want it to be. It inevitably leaves some people out, because it is profit-based. And you cannot make a profit from people with no money.
I had some folks whose lives are shaped more by television than the Bible say I was a narrow-minded, self righteous, old-fashioned bigot with no right to judge another. HMMMMMMMMM. Could they be right? Is that true? I believe that we should homeschool. It is morally right and unconscionable not to. We are NOT freaks. Jason
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Not one acts like a child. If we think this is good then why do we have kids if we want them be grownups before they are. [/quote]
Well, susieface.... my kids must certainly be the exception! I am always wishing they would grow up a bit, but they are firmly entrenched in their childhoods. I know other homeschoolers whose children not only know how to act like children, but who possess a great deal of responsibility. It is what I am hoping to instill in my children. Personally, I feel childhood's reign has been lengthened a bit too much by our modern society. Let's face it: I know we don't live in little houses on the prairie anymore, but today's kids have little concept of what it means to have responsibilities. The world has been made to revolve around them and making them happy.
I am no more bothered by having a courteous and thoughtful homeschooled child in on a conversation I may be having with adults, than I am by having rude little other-schooled children running between my legs during the same time. I was public-schooled, but always felt more comfortable talking to adults than other kids. Hooray that there are kids out there who can relate to someone other than other kids!!!
I understand that you have seen some kids who tend to fall to one extreme of the homeschooling arena, but unless you are intimately acquainted with the family, you may not know the real reason these kids are not hanging with the others. It may have very little to do with homeschooling and lots to do with the other kids or just those particular kids in general.
Your observations of a few families whom you may or may not be intimately involved with isn't a good basis for disapproving of homeschooling.
Karen
I have a question for the group.
There is a small but vocal group in our church who proclaim that the Public School system is evil and that anyone who works for, teaches in, supports, or sends their kids to Public Schools need to repent of their sin, quit their jobs, and/or homeschool their children.
Is this a common viewpoint amongst homeschoolers?
I always assumed that most homeschoolers did so because they felt that was what is best for their own children and families. I had no idea, until recently, that there are militant homeschoolers.
Am I out of touch?
Richard
The only thing that is evil is the way people throw around the word \"evil.\"
We have homeschooled for six years now and even though we have been able to customise and integrate faith and academics (actually the integration just happens naturally. The hard work would be to seperate them!) and can't imagine spending the last six years any other way, we would never pressure anyone through nuance or direct advice to homeschool their children. People often come to us for advice and we are happy to share with them the good and the bad, the pain and the glory.
It is very unwise to use guilt and scare tactics to play a political game with the public schools. Children deserve better than that. Parents who educate their children should be called to that task out of love. People who send their child to school should be called to that task (and yes, it is just as much if not more work than homeschooling) out of love.
I have been invited to attend a Christian Homeschooling group in my area. I'm not much of a joiner, but I checked it out. I discovered that many of the parents were homeschooling because they want to spank their children without being reported to Child Protection Services! We are a no-spanking family and I was a bit shocked to see parents whacking their children for things like whining and hitting their friends. Most said that they were homeschooling their children because \"God called them.\" My guess is that their conservative preacher put a guilt trip on them because these parents were barely suitable as parents much less as educators. Their children were not dressed suitably for the weather, they let them run too close to busy street, allowed them carry large sticks while running and playing with other children, modeled disrespectful behavior and language.
A decision to homeschool should not be based on politics. Parents should love being with their children, should be avid learners, should love and want to bless their communities. We began homeschooling because I was dissapointed in the minimal emphasis the public schools placed on the arts in our district and the private schools were doing no better. As time went by we continued homeschooling because it is such a wonderful way of life! Given a choice every year of entering the rat-race from the hasty morning routine to being tied to a calender that will effect every decision I make all year ... we continually choose home schooling.
Sorry about my sloppy post. Julie, of course I should have said \"educate their children outside educational institutions\" -- I guess I thought the context would be clear. My mistake. We all educate our children. I think we have a whole thread on about that somewhere in the archives. I also mentioned in that same post that both situations (homeschooling and institutional schooling) require just as much effort for parents. Again, sorry for any misunderstanding. I do not believe that public school is a bad thing. My primary complaint about school is that it is static and unbending and exerts too much control over our familiy's time and lifestyle. We prefer the freedom of homeschooling.
Janine ... it's one of those things. You'd just have to be there.
Just a couple of quick comments...
That John Adams quote is fascinating, since public / government education in the US did not begin until the decade after his death, in the 1830's. Perhaps he did not envision public/government education as we do today. I know that top US government officials today don't send THEIR kids to the public / government schools...
Back on the previous page I made a comment regarding God and the Bible being banned from the schools, and some asked how God could be banned from anywhere...
Of course He cannot - but try to tell that to the judges sitting in the US court system! :p
Someone else mentioned the possibility of no public / government education at all. Could we get by without it?
When one realizes that many of the great thinkers of all times were homeschooled, such as (from unconfirmed sources) Abraham Lincoln, Thomas Edison, C. S. Lewis, Agatha Christie, Alexander Graham Bell... need I continue? :)
Most of the Biblical characters, too, were probably homeschooled, as there were few alternatives. But we see from Moses and Paul, who received formal educations, that they both commited murder ... is there something about formal schooling that brings out a mean streak?! ;)
But they both turned out ok in the end.
And a final observation ... those Sylvan Learning Centers are booming in our area, advertising on TV and growing by leaps and bounds.
What does it say about the state of the US public / government education system, that a whole industry can spring up to re-teach their students? ???
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]That John Adams quote is fascinating, since public / government education in the US did not begin until the decade after his death, in the 1830's. Perhaps he did not envision public/government education as we do today. I know that top US government officials today don't send THEIR kids to the public / government schools[/quote]
Interestingly, Jefferson, the father of small government, also proposed a system of education supported by public funds. His idea was that the poor who demonstrated a knack for learning but could not afford to be sent to the private schools of the day be educated for the betterment of society as a whole.
And I think that last sentiment--the betterment of society as a whole--is what often can get lost when we think about such things.
As to homeschooling, if you have the ablility to do this, great. But not everyone has the gift of teaching. Some do a great job homeschooling their kids; others need help. When advocating everyone take their kids out of the \"evil\" public education system and teach them at home, this is something to keep in mind.
I rather enjoy repeating myself :p....
My guess is Skip is approaching the whole idea of education from a Biblical model, like in Deuteronomy 6:7 and 11:19. Of course those spots focused on the ways of God... but following Him is the paramount tippy-top of what we need to learn and teach, isn't it?
Thus I see his point.
I still don't want to jerk the government schools out from under people, though, if only for the selfish interests of my self, my family, my bloodline. We do better in a society where people have access to some sort of education, whether or not their own families can provide such.
My first reaction to your post, Skip, was to be extremely negative and lash out at your comments...but I have thought about it and I will just give you some personal experiences that are positive that took place or are taking place in our public schools.
First, let me say that I am a product of the public school system and I am an RN practicing in a very urban labor and delivery setting. My public school education has served me well, not only educationally but in how to deal with others who are not the same as my family.
My husband works for the local public schools as a counselor at a rough high school where he is respected and looked to for help by many students...also greatly loved throughout the county because he has touched lives in whichever school he was in at the moment. He is also the youth minister at our church and doesn't readily tell people that because he wants his life and not his title to tell who he is.
My oldest son was not a very diligent student...very bright but didn't like school. He made it through high school because his public school friends told him it was important to finish and that he would regret it later. I am not sure at that point in his life that he would've heard it from his parents. He went on to Nascar school and is successfully on his own. His friends are from all walks of life and he can relate to almost anyone.
My second son is a freshman at Lipscomb University... also a product of public schools. He is in the honors program majoring in history/political science with a minor in philosophy. He loves to learn. His senior year in high school I went to open house where you get to go to all their classes. I was so impressed with the quality of his teachers...their enthusiasm, competence and obvious love for their students made me want to go back to high school.
My first daughter is a freshman in high school and has blossomed in the public school system. She is very shy and excels academically. She plays the flute and plays lacrosse. Her shyness overcome through the years with many patient teachers.
My youngest daughter is nine and a little spitfire. She can challenge anyone on any given point and needs lots of guidance. Her kindergarten teacher (in public school) was the most incredible teacher and ambassador for Christ that I have ever seen. She always spoke in soft tones and called her students her sweethearts. She is a gracious young black woman who devotes her life to her students. She taught about racism in such a gentle, tender manner that I was in tears in the back of the room while cutting out construction paper letters for a bulletin board. Also this very daughter is now reading on a 10th grade level.
My own experience and those of my children have far exceeded our expectations and we are thrilled. We are in a county that is known for their substandard schools and we are thriving. Our children have learned that even when others are looking at the negative, you can grab hold of the positive and end up on the other side...with knowledge and enlightenment and skills for the future.
Skip, I know that we disagree on this issue and may always disagree on this but I just wanted you to see there is good out there. grace, Julie
I am a product of public school systems. What did I gain from my 13 years of school? Not much. As a matter of fact I can say that the public school system had a very negative impact on my life. I was basically self-educated though I don't have time to go into the details right now.
Kevin
Kari,
The blunt answer is, \"Yes, they will be educated.\"
If their parents, in violation of the law, fail to provide for their education, then the truancy system is already in place to step in.
Some religious private schools already, right now, will take in hardship cases for free. I know that for a fact; I've seen it in action.
Homeschooling can be done entirely free, on library resources and freebies and hand-me-downs and elbow grease - if the parent wants to. I've seen that, too.
Not to mention that given the state of the poor in government schools, as documented in studies and news articles (I've already posted a portion of one) shows that just because they're in the building doesn't mean that they're being educated. The article posted above showed that more than 60% of poor African American 4th-graders couldn't read. That's institutionalized failure, not just a few falling through the cracks. I contend that, given the evidence as it stands now, that private schools and home schools would far surpass the performance of the government schools even for the poorest.
Case in point:
In New York City the Parochial schools offered to take over the government schools that were failing for their standard tuition cost - which would have saved the government money - but they REFUSED! There was just too much politics, union power, judical separation of church and state, and worry that they might actually educate the kids to the embarrasment of the System.
But I've rambled enough...
Omega,
I'm curious where your area of the country is.
My neice graduated from home school last year (she's now 17 I think--kids grow up soooooo fast these days!!!!!!!) and is now an active part of her parent's homeschool ministry (Wholeheart Ministries --http://www.wholeheart.org--and she has one book already in publication). I have two nephews and one neice still being homeschooled.
We did not homeschool our three girls (although we discussed it). We are very fortunate to have a decent school system available (we live in a very rural area with a total school enrollment of [200 students K-12). There are some good school systems out there.
I agree with you that homeschooled kids will become more prevelant in the future in the leadership positions. However, I think this will be because of the growing numbers. I have already seen some very poor quality homeschooling going on here in this area by parents who have no business even considering homeschooling.
Arkstfan,
We think a whole lot alike and have shared some similar experiences with the same type situations!
how come there are so few family topics?
If there are no Christians in the public schools and the schoolchildren have no access to kids who believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ, is that not evil?
I understand there are good reasons to homeschool. There are good things about public schools as well. Depends on the situation. But to bind something on sin for which there is no biblical argument such as homeschooling or instruments is absolutely stupid in my opinion.
How freaky, an entire Christian homeschooling group running around with snotty-nosed underdressed/overdressed kids, who are whacking each other with big ol' dirty sticks as they run unsupervised along the curb of a busy street.
patriciaredstone, it will likely be very difficult to find a group to join, in which you would feel very safe with your son. I doubt anyone you know has made the Flambeau Family so nearly a reality as you have.
Kevin, You need to be careful and think through your thoughts on this a little more. Play it out to the very end. If everyone had to pay for education for their children, those most needy families would be trapped in the cycle of poverty. The only way out would be education and then you would be denying them that avenue out of poverty. In my own case, I would probably be able to educate my children...maybe homeschool or paying for private education but then I would be limiting my children. If I had to pay for their education through 12th grade then I might not be able to pay for college and that would stunt their potential. The offering of education to all benefits you and all of society. It is not a perfect system but it is better than nothing. grace, Julie
Julie / Janine,
Look at the big picture?!
There were NO government schools in the U. S., not one, for more than threescore years... that would appear to be about 100% of the picture from the 1770s to the 1830s... is that big enough?
I would ask that you step back from your preconceived notions. What's in vogue now is not necessarily representative of the way its always been. Government schools as the norm are brand new in terms of world history. Government schools are barely newer than the Big Mac - and just because the assembly line works for cars and fast food doesn't mean that it will work for education.
Look at God's plan for Israel in the Old Testament. It was good enough, in His eyes (and He sees the BIG picture) to command the parents to take charge of the education of the children. No government schools for Israel.
Hey, looking at the 'standard' today, the standardized test - homeschoolers are blowing away both public and private institutions.
In the backyard of the U.S. government schools, which spend more on each child's education than any other government in the world, a one-word question comes to mind:
Why?
Could it be that God's way was best after all?
As for us, even in the heart of the Bible Belt, with some of the best government schools in the state at our disposal, I'm convinced that I have no choice but to homeschool.
If we want a more Christian society, don't we as Christians need to try to shape our community to reflect the way Christ told us to be?
What happened to the idea that we're all in this together?
For any community to thrive, the individual must, to some extent, sacrifice the personal good for the good of the community. Everyone pitches in to educate the children of the community.
Single people work to educate the children, the young help pay take care of the old.
In recent years there's been such an increase in \"What's in it for me?\" We've forgotton all about \"Love your neighbor as yourself\"
Kevin, if you ever get a society which doesn't see to the education of all children, you sure going to need that National defense, court system and police.
Skip,
There are valuable programs in high school (International Baccaulaureate, Advanced Placement) that aren't necessarily available in the private schools, let alone in the home schools. Private school parents put their kids into public schools to get them into the IB program. There are many failing schools systems out there today, but there are many successful ones too. You can't just look to the negative side of things.
Is that anything like the \"Pepsi Challenge\"?
Government school positives... Hmmm... Nope, there aren't any.
Just kidding! :D
Government schools have vast resources at their disposal, since they are, as has been noted before, on the receiving end of more money than any school system than any other today, and perhaps ever. As a result, resources such as computer labs and science labs, complete with expensive equipment and materials, are provided. And I know what some of that equipment costs, and know that most of us (individual families) can't afford it...
Government schools have handled millions of students over the course of their existence.
Government schools provide schooling in a black box, so to speak, and the course of study meets state and federal standards and will progress in a direction toward college upon graduation. And you can take a high school diploma from a government school anywhere, and it will be accepted without question.
Government schools excel at providing opportunities for extracurricular activities, ranging from various sports, to band, to drama and chorus, and so on – and extracurricular activities are often the very strongest advantage of government schooling over home schooling due to the pooling of resources and grouping of peer students together. And government schools typically have facilities to host extracurricular activities, such as stadiums, ball fields, gymnasiums, and auditoriums.
Government schools have teachers who are college-educated.
Government schools will take in the poor students. And feed them lunch, too.
Government schools have programs or separate schools to handle special-needs students and students who are discipline problems.
Government schools are measuring and students with standardized testing, and holding teachers accountable, often with background checks to ensure their suitability.
Government schools can provide counseling and assistance in preparing for college, as well as assist in the search for scholarships and student aid.
Government schools give both parents the freedom to work outside the home without concern about the care and education of the kids.
These are several positives, and of course there are more positives that I missed...
Did I pass?
I am reading with interest on two levels, as a homeschooling parent and as a moderator. As a moderator I want to encourage everyone to lace your posts with facts and \"I\" messages rather than \"you\" and \"them\" messages ... \"I feel ...\" \"I believe...\" \" I have seen ...\" This helps communication by keeping us all aware that there are different ways to see things.
As a homeschooling parent, I made my choice to oversee the complete education of my son because of defiencies in both private and government schools. School, in my opinion, is not the \"real world\" or \"the world.\" The world is nothing like school.
Schools are based on antiquated hierarchal management devices which simply do not work in a free society. They are based on the old european factory model with a \"Lord\" overseeing the peasant workers with the help of minor \"lords\" or \"bosses\". The individual is lost in such a society as each is forced to produce on the same level, under the same conditions, within the same factory style construct. No operation in America functions like a convetional school in our country. The best schools depart from this model and the teachers become a governing body that functions to guide and lead and learn together with the body at large which includes the students. There are very few of these schools. In homeschool, this model just happens naturally and it is a model that opens the mind. Some schools try to imitate this model, but the efforts are only short diversions from the old hierarchal norm.
My husband and I were educated in government schools. We were lost in the crowd. Because our school was in an impoverished minority neighborhood, the district gave us a school counselor that the other schools in the district would surely have fired. This counselor was a member of our church. He behaved as though he hated kids and thought we all were too stupid to go to college! So we had to find our own way ... which has been good ... very good ... but that smart kids will find a way is not a good excuse for poor guidance.
Finally, I do not think that the government schools contain the essence of the schools our nation's forefathers had in mind when they endorsed public education. The priviledged were educated in formal institutions (which most did not enter until they were well past 9 or 10 years old) in order to become good and wise not filthy rich. Education was not designed to help a person get a job back then, it was to develop character and to broaden the awareness of those destined to be leaders. Teaching morality was primary because these students were going to be \"lords\" in a class society. It was up to them to carry on the social standards of grace and dignity with human compassion. They studied religion, the poets, the philosophers. But as class society fell, the urgent need to teach compassion and morality fell with it. School has become about making productive members of society not about nurturing the soul and mind. It works against the social structure of the public school when children are brought together in community to learn how to \"get mine.\"
I'll probably get some of this wrong, but here goes.
In West Virginia, the school system is funded almost completely by property taxes. In 1975 a parent from the area where I live sued saying that this funding system caused schools in the poorer areas to be underfunded and the state cnstitution says all counties must be funded equally. The wealthier counties protested, afraid this would take money away from their systems. In 1982 Circuit Court Judge Arthur Recht ruled in her favor, and sent the case back to the state government to be implemented.
They did practically nothing. The state school building authority was established and forced school consolidation on several counties on the theory that maybe counties that couldn't afford to operate 4 schools could afford to operate one. Our local consolidation still hasn't happened, although it now looks like it will. Unfortunately ours is a large county geographically, and cosolidation will mean increased transportation costs and hour-plus bus rides.
In the meantime, the state's economy, never the best to begin with, took a nose dive. The recession of '82 saw an unbelievable number of coal mines closing and devastated our chemical industry. This trend has continued ever since, with another chemical company announcing its closing just last week. This has led to a mass exodus from the state, decreasing property values,
and even less money for education.
Compounding this problem, school boards in the poorer counties are controlled by local political machines who use the systems as a feeding trough for their supporters. They exist not to improve education, but to provide jobs for the relatives and cronies of politicians. Few members of the school boards show any concern for the state of the school systems. A couple of years ago, the state stepped in and took over our counties system, ostensibly on the grounds that the political hiring had gotten out of hand. In reality, given that the legislative education chairman at the time was one of our political bosses, this was most likely done so the state could force the unpopular consolidation and our local politicians wouldn't get blamed for it. (a few years agothe population got so upset over consolidation they actually voted a couple of write-in candidates into office). In the two years since the state took over, very little has changed. The same people remain in charge.
Which brings us back to the Recht decision. He made his ruling without telling the state how to implement the decision. Other states (including neighboring Kentucky) had been forced by similar rulings to revamp their systems and had implemented real change. But because of the vagueness of the ruling and the lack of will of the politicians, nothing was done in West Virginia. Every few years someone would go to court and try to force the state to fund the schools, and a decision would be put off once again.
This week a new set of hearings are being held. The original judge has been called out of retirement to hear the case. There is some speculation that the decision will be to force the hiring of more personell. Personally, I think this would only be a cosmetic solution. We will only make real progress if we find a new, permanent way to fund our school systems, as other states that have been faced with this problem have done.
One thing that has kept progress from being made is that people who have received a poor education tend to not value education, and thus have no will to have their hard-earned tax money go to the schools. To many of them, teachers are overpaid (so many people in this area live below the poverty line some in wealthier areas would find this unfathomable) and education isn't about real life anyway. Some areas provide additional funds through excess levies, but not our area. Our biggest obstacle is apathy. People complain endlessly about the lack of jobs in this area, but few seem to see the link between our poor economy and our poor education system. And unfortunately, this is not only a link, it is a cycle.
Possibly because we are all priggishly self-satisfied with the wonderfulness of our families?
:blush: :eek:
Seriously, that's one thing I want to improve/increase is the topics that might fit under \"Family Life\", precisely because my family life is NOT[/b] all I think I'd like it to be...
And I've only a very short time before my older two children are out of my house, out from under my wing.
Scary thought. Incorrect thought, maybe, 'cause any protection I provided through childhood
(a) got its power from God, and He'll still be with them when they leave, and
(b) I've had 21 and 17 years to instill in them the strength and wisdom to protect themselves, to stay right there in the palm of God's hand.
Ah, well.
Have you any topics you'd like to look at here, Newtome?
\"The Bible is banned in public (really 'government') schools.\"
So, does a Christian belong in an environment where the Bible and God are banned?!
Take that and run with it!
As a homeschooler, I'd go for the complete privatization of schools, myself.
But no, there is no common militant feeling against government schools in the homeschool group that my family is a part of.
Pity and horror are probably the general reactions to government school achievement and behaviors (student AND teacher).
I figure public school is just about as evil as public transportation.
Offers just as many opportunities for good or evil to occur.
For each, depends on what the government entities that run it are willing to put up with from employees and users.
Patricia, I took offense to one thing that you said and you may not have even meant it that way. You said that some of us choose to educate our children and some choose to send them to public school. I send my children to public school and my husband also works for the public school system but I also educate my children. I may not have them in my classroom Monday through Friday but I talk with them at every opportunity and feel ultimately responsible for their education. I do feel that I educate my children in all areas of life. They are my most precious gifts from God and I am just careful with my children as anyone who homeschools. grace, Julie
Since I don't know the people who say that stuff in your church, Richard, I can't give a good opinion about exactly where they're coming from.
I do know there is much evil, attitudinal evil, acted-out evil, spoken evil, whatever, in a public school. I've been there, my kids are there now. I know.
But, then, there's a \"Christian\" school in town where some friends send their kids, and there's much of the same stuff. The good difference about a private school is the teeth still in the discipline bite there. Public school administrators and teachers have their fangs pulled in many ways.
No matter how you educate your kids, you will still be homeschooling them if you are a good parent. The school cannot raise your children; you must. School-raised kids are \"pack\" kids.
But, to make some sort of salvational issue out of sending your kids to school is just plain wacky. Such a blanket argument sounds like the stuff spouted by people who are mindlessly placing themselves under the authority of a \"pastor\" with such a hobby horse. What's your church leadership say on it? I mean, as a from-the-pulpit opinion?
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Should there be Public Schools at all?[/quote]
Interesting question from a guy who is a big fan of a school that was created by a federal land grant and supported by the state through taxation, among other revenue streams. (A&M is a public school)
Richard
:D :D
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (julie danley @ Oct. 14 2002,06:44)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Kevin, You need to be careful and think through your thoughts on this a little more. Play it out to the very end. If everyone had to pay for education for their children, those most needy families would be trapped in the cycle of poverty. The only way out would be education and then you would be denying them that avenue out of poverty. In my own case, I would probably be able to educate my children...maybe homeschool or paying for private education but then I would be limiting my children. If I had to pay for their education through 12th grade then I might not be able to pay for college and that would stunt their potential. The offering of education to all benefits you and all of society. It is not a perfect system but it is better than nothing. grace, Julie[/quote]
Julie, how would your children be limited by homeschooling or private school?
My husband and I were sitting around solving the problems of the world when we came up with an idea which I think is relevant to this thread. We are talking about the education of our young within the context of our faith but also within the context of our world. I think the church is in an excellent postition to contribute greatly to decrease the generational schism which, I believe, is at the core of the problem of how to raise children in the world and not of the world.
There is a growing interest world-wide in internships. If every preacher, deacon, sunday school coordinator, elder, church building supervisor were assigned an intern (teenager) for say a six-month period I belive the children of the church would be blessed. Those who use interns would need to learn from professional members who use interns about how to approach interviewing, accepting and assignments of interns. And interns would also need to apply for internship with their chosen church leader or administrator. This would make the church their own and deepen their spritual awareness and community. The only thing I don't like about this idea is that it is a program and I hate programs! But sometimes it takes people who hate programs to prioritize the good from the not-so-good.
Yeah, what Julie said.
I am all for homeschooling. Especially in a state like Iowa, where I homeschooled my older two kids for a couple-three years. The school district was super-supportive, providing me with anything I wanted, from lesson plans to textbooks to access to extra-curricular activites and sports.
But, even in a relatively unsupportive state like Louisiana, it can be done and done well by average parents.
But... here's another 30-foot-high sequin-covered purple fur but: my children have to grow up among/intermarry with others, and I'd like their pool of contemporaries to have a modicum of education. If the unfortunate ones get their only good examples and positive feedback and love and lunch at school, well, that's sad, but at least they get it there. Therefore the answer ain't to scrap the whole system indiscriminately.
I can see keeping younger children more \"protected from the elements\". I was thinking more of when kids are in middle school high school. I certainly wouldn't argue with anyone who chose to homeschool very young children and later work them into the public schools. The point about spring seedlings is my point also - kids need to have exposure to the world gradually not be thrust into it at age 18 having never experienced it.
But in some cases and in some schools younger kids will be just fine in public schools. I and the majority of the people I know who attended public school since age 5 (again, with the exception of college) were not warped by it. And, in fact, might could argue that we were strengthened by it in some ways.
Here's an interesting story, for what it's worth, about one of my public school experiences. I was in 3rd grade (I think) when one of the girls in my class at school who knew I went to church said to me \"I don't know why you believe in the Bible. It's not true. No one has ever been able to prove that it is true.\" I tearfully recounted the conversation to my dad when I got home. After talking to me about the many ways we know the Bible to be true, he decided it might be helpful to find me a children's book on the subject (knowing that I loved to read). He looked and looked but couldn't find a single book about that subject for children. So he wrote one! It's out of print now, but it was (a couple years after this original incident) published by Zondervan called \"How Do We Know the Bible is True?\" subtitle \"Reasons a kid can believe it.\" It was even published in several other languagues in Europe. (forgive me for bragging on my dad :)! )
I think there are many things to consider in deciding to homeschool, send kids to private school or send kids to public school. Each community is different, each school is different, and each kid is different. I just don't think we can make a blanket statement that homeschooling is always better and public schooling is always a bad idea.
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]My first reaction to your post, Skip, was to be extremely negative and lash out at your comments...
--julie danley[/quote]
Before I read past that in your post, I must record my first reaction. So I may post more later, after I read the rest, but I have a feeling about where your post will be heading...
Why would one \"lash out\" at a collection of facts?
I would guess that the facts penetrated the comfort zone, the bubble that makes everyone, myself included, think that \"everything is ok\", or \"everything will be ok\", or, \"things will get / are getting better\", or, \"that won't happen here\".
I hope that everything is ok wherever you might be, and that the situation will get better...
But the facts are marching along in the other direction.
Judges who have interpreted against religion/morality and discipline, powerful teachers unions, beaurocrats that use the schools for their own ends (\"lottery for education\" is election-speak 'round here), are all factors that work against real, positive change.
---
Ok, now I've read the rest of your post.
I can see that you're pretty much forced to defend the government schools. Any other course would be self-condemnation. In your shoes, I'd might do the same thing. But I don't - I'll 'fess up...
Our older two children are the product of government schools. Some of the best schools in the state; nearly brand new facilities, top-notch teachers by all accounts, and certainly (and fortunately) not on the 'bad end' of the statistics that I posted. They graduated! The younger two are still homeschooling. Time may change my views, but if I had it to do over again with the older ones I would not have left the older kids to the government schools. Cutting our income in half and struggling finacially for a decade is peanuts compared to the foundational education of our children.
Oh, the older kids turned out ok, but I see subtle differences in the government schooled versus the homeschooled.
But, as we all know, its the little things that really count.
That foundation, as in the parable, had better be rock-solid, or the storms of life will cave in the house.
Unfortuately I see the influences of the worldview of teachers and peers who were not Christians during those crucial middle- and high-school formative years. When it's right before your eyes - and, like I said, our government schools are top-notch - then would I not be remiss if I failed to sound an alarm?
Is there not enough factual information out there already?
How much, exactly, will it take to admit that the educational system is a massive failure, consigning as many as half of their charges to ignorance (see above articles)?
I couldn't find my copy of the article about the failure of the Florida high schools (I have so many others) - in Florida government schools recently 1/3 dropped out, 1/3 flunked out, and only 1/3 graduated...
But it's each parent's call what to do with the information...
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]My guess is Skip is approaching the whole idea of education from a Biblical model, like in Deuteronomy 6:7 and 11:19. Of course those spots focused on the ways of God... but following Him is the paramount tippy-top of what we need to learn and teach, isn't it?[/quote]
Sorry, Skip and Janine, but that won't wash. Skip, you implied-nearly flatout stated-that public education isn't God's way. If you have no scriptural evidence to back that up, admit it.
Janine, the 'transportation model' of that same period was hiking through the desert. You aren't claiming driving a car is not God's way, are you?
And if Skip is trying to claim that those with kids in public school don't personally provide their children's religious education, then I'm going to have to get really angry.
Those who think public education 'wrong' please answer me this - should the poor simply do with out learning to read?
Kari.
Skip-I just saw your newest post. How about if Julie says that, rather than proving public education is a complete failure, your citations prove that
1)A couple of parents in Seattle are nutballs
2)A Palm Beach standardized test has been made difficult enough to insure that it measures the knowledge of even the highest performing students.
3)We're a country that doesn't know much about history (I bet that surprises Booty)
4)According to USA Today, nearly 8% of surveyed schools are still having significant trouble educating their most difficult students.
5)Bill O'Reilly's in love with the sound of his own voice.
6)Los Angeles is still facing severe education problems (along with many other problems).
7)Some doctor claims to have anecdotal evidence that some school administer may have gone too far in pushing Ritalin. By the way, our district has a strict policy forbidding teachers to even mention Ritalin to parents.
Far from an indictment of the entire concept of public education.
Janine - regarding the governmental supervision of homeschooling families-Is that necessarily a bad thing? Considering that homeschooling has been used as a means to prevent anyone from discovering that a child is being abused.
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Guest @ Oct. 18 2002,11:19)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Kevin-
Obviously, you can read. You can write. You can spell. You are able to hold down a job. Operate a computer. You can make change. Figure a tip. Understand enough history to make informed voting decisions. You have (presumably) received basic vaccinations and vision and hearing screenings.
These are the things a public education system is supposed to provide. The whole point of our system is to offer a basic education to EVERY child - including poor children, disabled children, abused children, the children of unschooled parents, and just plain children.
Those who advocate discarding public education are apparently willing to leave a large portion of our population illiterate. Do you actually believe that would be better for the country as a whole?
Yes, our education system fails many children. No one can argue that it doesn't. Yes, private schools or home schools can very often educate individual children better than the public school can. But private schools and home schools CANNOT educate ALL children better than a public program.
That's the whole point of federal programs - education, welfare, defense. That as a community we can provide better for the WHOLE GROUP than we can provide for the WHOLE GROUP as individuals.
Rather than deciding that you don't want to pay to educate the poor (which is exactly what you're saying when you say you don't want to pay to educate other people's children), why not try to improve the system we've got?[/quote]
Did I learn to read because of the public school system? No. Did I learn to write because of the public school system? No. Did I learn history because of the public school system? No. Did I learn to hold down a job because of the public school system? No.
I was an extremely introverted, but extremely intelligent child. When I was thrust into the public school system I basically withdrew. I would go through the entire day without talking to a soul if I could get by with it, and I would not listen to those other people either.
Most of my education took place because I had loving parents and I was driven to learn naturally. School was an environment that was a very negative impact on my life.
I missed as much school as I could. As a matter of fact my senior year I missed 40 days. (I would go on days that I had tests, because I didn't want to miss those.) But I still learned, because I wanted to - not because of school. TO this day my education continues.
When I arrived in college, the environment changed. And being surrounded by a community of 600 people at a Christian college helped me come out of my shell.
That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. Should tax-payers continue to pay for education. In my opinion no. That responsibilitiy lies with the families and the individuals. Then maybe so many people would excel more and wouldn't take it for granted.
Kevin
Kari,
First of all, to clarify -
I would privatize education.
This is what I mean:
First, the law would remain the same - you have to school your child from ages 7 - 16 in Alabama, for instance.
Second, ideally, all taxes pertaining to education would be rescinded. There may need to be some taxation for the assistance of the poor in the education of their children, but when the government handles the money, strings get attached, so I'd avoid passing the money through the hands of the government it at all possible.
Third, as has been the case in everything else in the capitalist system, the free market will fill the vacuum, and the kids will be educated. In a way, its already happening here - Sylvan Learning Centers are snapping up kids that the government schools have left behind, and they're tutoring them. Its weird to see an entire reschooling industry based on the failure of the public schools, but they're a big-time outfit with a lot of advertising dollars and very good at what they do - maybe, seriously - the government should subcontract with them.
I would respectfully disagree with one of your assertions - \"But private schools and home schools CANNOT educate ALL children better than a public program.\"
We simply cannot know that - in fact, the deregulation and privatization of various industries has, by and large, been successful, and certainly not the nightmare that doomsayers predicted.
There's only one catch - this will NEVER happen. There's too much judicial activism, too much money, too much union power, too much political power, and too much public resistance for this to take place in the forseeable future, if ever.
Spurly's tale got me to thinking -
I personally know a man whose son finished 1st grade in the government schools unable to read, and unable even to say the alphabet. After deciding that another year of government schools was out, and private school was unavoidable, his wife suggested homeschool. But he resisted, until he was backed into a corner by the fact that there was really no other do-able option. His wife had their son reading in less than three months of homeschooling. And that's not an isolated tale.
An AP article appeared yesterday saying that hearings would begin this week about how to enforce the court ruling 20 years ago that said that our local school system was inadeguate and the state must fund it as well as it did schools in richer (this is West Virginia, I should probably say less poor) areas.
Twenty Years Ago
In the meantime, my younger sistes have started school, graduated, and discovered they were totally unprepared for college. (You expect us to already know how to do what? I've never even heard of that.)
A former two-term governor who was in charge of enforcing this (and who is now head of the national board that governs the SAT--ironic since the SAT is not even required in West Virginia) admits that he totally ignored the court ruling when he proposed changes in the education system.
If anybody out there has any workable solutions we'd be happy to hear them. :(
There are some stunningly fascinating thoughts in this thread.
I have had my children in private and public school. Our closest friends have home schooled and been in public schools as well.
Based on those perspectives and my observations of the world in general I submit the following thoughts of mine own.
The idea of eliminating public schools is just horrible. Simply put it is essential to any economy to develop a workforce and education is essential to all but the most menial jobs. Everyone uses public schools and the concept of tuition funding or private funding only is fantasy. It was a struggle to pay tuition to get through college yet my tuition covered less than 1/3rd of the cost of educating me there. If it had not been for loans backed by the federal government I wouldn't have been able to afford it all.
Among my best friends in high school were two brothers who came from the poorest family I've known. If not for a gift of a kerosene heater they would have literally frozen to death at times and had going a week without electricity wasn't uncommon for them. The field trips they went on were courtesy of teachers paying their way, but thanks to a free public education, a government funded college education one is now a chemist for a major corporation and the other a doctor. Home schooling wouldn't have been an option either since their father couldn't read and their mother was dead.
I don't know where this idea of God being kept out of the schools comes from. Virtually all of the middle schools and high schools I'm familiar with have Christian clubs that meet on campus, the Meet Me at the Flagpole rallies continue on unabated and I know of several campuses in the area where teachers hold weekly devotionals before school. Any one of those three has the potential for more positive impact than any canned non-offensive prayer that some school board would ever cook up if allowed to.
I am no fan of private schools. It is a constant struggle with our teen group to deal with the private school kids. Our local private schools do a great job of creating a condescending holier than you attitude. The chapel and Bible class requirements hurt our classes as the private school kids spit out the expected canned answers.
As to home schooling, I've seen some dazzling results but I am thankful for the standardized testing requirements because of the small percentage I've seen that were not getting caliber of instruction they should. When I taught elementary level Bible classes the top kids were always home schooled, the bottom were also home schooled with little noticeable skills difference between the private and public kids. Home schooled kids in my experience are a delight to be around because they interact better with adults.
As to going to a publicly funded private system, count in the opposed crowd. Despite my distaste for the four private schools and their products I've dealt with regularly I know that there are excellent private schools out there getting great results. I also know that government money is like crystal meth, try it once and you are addicted and will do anything to keep using it. Getting hooked on tax dollars just opens the door to more interference than I am willing to see. Although I don't like the non-God stance taken in the public schools I don't want to ever see my tax dollars going to the Mormons, Witnesses, SDA, Islamics, or Jewish schools where tax dollars will be used to teach that my belief that Jesus was the Christ, the son of the living God is false.
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I am no fan of private schools. It is a constant struggle with our teen group to deal with the private school kids. Our local private schools do a great job of creating a condescending holier than you attitude. The chapel and Bible class requirements hurt our classes as the private school kids spit out the expected canned answers.
[/quote]
Ark, I know you wrote this two months ago, but I just read it and I'd like to respond.
Can I help you to see things from the other perspective? I was/am one of those private schooled kids. From third grade through high school I had daily Bible classes and weekly chapels. I have also been \"blessed\" with the ability to learn and remember easily. Is it any wonder that I was bored and frustrated with classes at church?
It is no different today. It is so hard to faithfully attend classes when you know your knowledge of the \"lesson\" is greater than the teacher's. Add to that a spiritual gift of teaching in a female who relates best to adults. (I was that way as a kid too.)
So what is the answer? Do we decide that it's better to keep all of our kids scripturally ignorant so that our church classes are easier to manage? Maybe we need to change our class curriculum to where \"canned answers\" won't work. We really need, somehow, to instill a love for God's word in all of our people, so that we all are anxious to learn.
Never
Kevin,
I'm single with no kids but believe it is my responsibility to support public school education as a citizen of my city/state/nation.
In general,
I think the anti-public-school crowd forgets how many teachers and school administrators are Christian. There are many. I think there are people all around who just have to look for someone or something to despise whether or not it makes any sense.
There are also parents out there who take no interest in their children's education. Public school is a necessity for those kids as well as for those whose parents have to work full time, don't have the money to send them to private school, etc.
I think it's good for people to have choices, if possible.
I don't know if he'll take on the kids...
but if we abolish abortion, I'll surely zoom into hyperdrive trying to work it out to take on all those kids!
Similar-sounding question, you see... Who will raise all the kids that will be born after abortions are much, much harder to get?
Skip, I do have a challenge for you. No, this is not negative. I just challenge you to look for the positive in your local public school system. Look for the positive in those children who you know and interact with who are now attending public schools. I am leaving to go out of town on a church retreat with many of those families who homeschool. I will also do the same as I have asked of you. I will look for the positive in those homeschooled and think on what their homeschooling has offered them. I will get back to you after the weekend and tell you those positive points. only by grace, Julie
\"Brain drain\" and the like. Not everyone \"gets\" it.
Our state's focus re: stopping it has more to do with taxes/graft inhibiting economic growth, thus inhibiting jobs for graduates to keep them here, than with bad education.
Despite the low education ranking of Louisiana in general, historically, my particular area remains consistently not-too-awful due to the revenues from the oil & seafood industries. I was part of the \"guinea pig\" initial Gifted & Talented program in the early 70's, which came about through \"oil riches\" being available.
Remains to be seen if the gambling promises re: education get fulfilled... and if the spending occurs, we'll see if throwing money at the problem will help...
I wonder if these uncanny unregistered posts that are dogging so many threads today will flea if we ignore them?
My sister is currently being homeschooled. I graduated from a public school. I had a number of teachers who I believe were Christians. Some public schools can be very good and some can be very bad. To say all or none is making a value judgement that no one has enough experience to make.
There are problems in public schools. My problem with this was my school was small and I felt dumbed down and held back. I was never challenged and didn't learn to study.
There are problems with homeschooling. I have seen some sheltered homeschool kids get out to the real world and finally get a chance to rebel and get into some real trouble because they could not deal with the world that had been sheltered from.
Here's a new question to throw into the pot. Should there be Public Schools at all? Should all parents have to pay for their students education? Should I, as a single person, have to pay property tax and sales tax and state tax and federal tax so that parents can send their students to school for free.
My guess would be probably not. However I am not going to go stand on the corner and wave banners.
Kevin (Who is not a big fan of any public programs other than National defense and the court system and police)
Here's why I think it was put that way:
Perhaps their opportunities would be limited if it came time to learn something beyond Mama's expertise, or when it came time to need more money for higher schooling & Mama had no more money... Not because home education is somehow inferior.
I don't like to pay taxes for education I'm not using, either, but it does benefit me & my offspring to have the people around them somewaht educated. Fewer poverty-related problems if more people learn their way out of poverty.
Skip, I am asking you to look at the big picture now...not then. Homeschooling may be the choice for you and your children but it is not the right choice for everyone. We do pay taxes to support those schools and no, not everyone uses them but it is for the greater good. Just as we feed the hungry, clothe the naked and shelter the homeless...we educate the children. I feel responsible for the community...mine and the world's. If we abolish public education, are you going to take on the education of all those children? grace, Julie
In my mind, this starts to relate to the question of religion in schools. The argument for why we should homeschool could be used as an argument for keeping religious teachings out of the classroom- because parents should be the religious instructors, rather than secular teachers.
I don't think that has to apply to all subjects though. I know of many people who do a great job homeschooling their kids. But if I think that just maybe the school teachers (especially middle/high school) at the nearby public school have expertise and more skill at teaching than I do in say, biology, then I certainly want to send my kids there. And, like Janine, I want other kids to have that education too even if their parents can't provide it personally.
But when it comes to letting teachers lead prayers or teach Christianity, I have to say that that responsibility belongs to the parents - because as a parent, I want to teach them what I believe is right, not what the school believes is right. What if my student goes to a school where teachers are allowed to lead prayers and teach Christianity, but my child's teacher is a Catholic and teaches the kids to pray to Mary? I would certainly have a problem with that. But I don't have a problem with public schools being the place where people who have much more indepth knowlege of secular subjects can pass that knowledge to my children.
In addition, I haven't heard much indepth discussion about the notion of living \"in the world but not of the world.\" Isn't there some benefit to the character of a child to be aware of and exposed to those who don't have the same values, to strengthen his/her convictions, to be a witness to others and to be prepared for the type of environment he/she will face in the workplace and such as an adult? Does God call us to live in a bubble, trying to never run into people who are not Christians?
lucybelle,
Quickly...
Did you comprehend what those news articles said?
Are you trying to justify, for example, the fact that half -- yes, HALF - of the Los Angeles school districts' students are failing - with IB and AP programs?!
IMO, I'd give up BOTH the IB and AP programs if they could teach to graduation, say, 95% of the kids.
What is your definition of success?
Opportunities...
or Results?
I'd take results.
Marc, you pose a really interesting question. Could you tell us more about the situation in your local district-what did the original court order require, how do you distribute education funds now, etc.?
Kari.
Next time you're in that mode, try writing 'stream of consciousness' poetry.
Guinea Pigs of the world unite!
I don't know how I have missed this thread, but I just now came across it. I would like to add my two cents worth.
We are fortunate to have a good public (township schools, not inner city public schools) system here. We have also had our kids in public and private schools. I myself went to a private christian school. In my opinion the only advantage of a private-christian school is the Bible taught daily, chapel and christian teachers. Aside from that there are many disadvantages as well. Very political, and a lot of favortism shown, kids are exposed to just as much bad influences. Some kids thrive in a smaller school, some thrive in a larger one(my own included).
We are very fortunate that there are many christian teachers in the school system our own kids are in.
As far as home-schooling, I would NEVER consider it. Despite the fact that I am not disciplined enough, every home-schooled child that I know(notice I said of the ones I know. I am sure there are exceptions.) the kids are just plain weird. They only interact with their siblings and adults. Not one acts like a child. If we think this is good then why do we have kids if we want them be grownups before they are. It drives me nuts to be in a group of families at church functions where all the kids are playing together somewhere, but the homeschooled children are always hanging around the adults and in on our conversations. Every parent of these kids think this is great. But others do not like it other than myself. They never know how to play. Some I know have never even HEARD of dodge ball or kick ball. They are ridiculed by the other children (which is wrong) but to be expected. I just feel sorry for them. I can't for the life of me figure out why parents want their kids to be made fun of or to be \"nerdy\". why do that to them? To make them smarter? I am not convinced of that, anyone can learn and go to college. To keep them from negative influences? I know of quite of few that when they were of legal age have gone crazy with the partying. I would rather have to deal with this while they are still at home and I have some control over the situation. some will while growing up, some will when they are grown. Home schooling doesn't stop this problem.
I hope I haven't offended anyone here, NOT MY INTENTION, but as you can see I am no fan of home schooling. I would rather go the private school route.
Susie
No problem on this end!
Just posting on the \"topic du-jour\"! And getting a nice tan from the flames shooting out of the monitor!
I'm just relating my own experience and research on the topic. Unfortunately, the government schools have basically dug their on grave, so to speak, so that the media has practically no choice but to rip the schools (and dirty laundry sells).
Like I said, each one can take the information and do whatever you want with it. In my experience, most people get mad, or change the subject, or just ignore it.
I wouldn't even BEGIN to bring up the topic at church! LOL!! I'd get bounced out in a minute. It's worse than politics! Probably because people take it as an attack on their parenting or an attack on their kids, and they see red and its all over...
That's not my experience.
The experience I have had is if you say baptism you hear \"Acts 2:38\" as a quick answer like it is the only text, even instrumental music garners a quick Ephesians 5 answer.
I'll admit to a unique view though because while we have a large number of kids in the local cofC private school they are being taught the old mainstream at school while not at church. Our teens are more fuddy-duddy conservatives about worship than their parents.
Somehow I have visions of parents telling the kids that instruments are OK but if you want to pass Bible you have to answer that they are unauthorized and evil or telling them that no matter what they learned in school today Mr. and Mrs. Smith aren't going to hell because they remarried after \"unscriptural\" divorces.
I don't think there's any way you can make a blanket statement that all public schools are evil and be accurate. I'm sure that might apply to some public schools, but certainly not all, and even within each school, it varies from classroom to classroom.
Both of my parents teach in public elementary schools. They keep Christian children's books in their bookshelves and teach creation along with the evolution theory that's in the textbook, emphasizing the word \"theory\". In fact, at the school where my dad teaches, the principal is a strong Christian and she is careful to hire teachers with values, integrity, ethics and as many Christians as she can. She said several parents have commented to her that sending their children to her school is like sending them to a private Christian school without the tuition! Obviously, not all schools are like this. But I'm sure there are others.
I attended public schools all of my life (well, until college), and I don't know that I would have changed that, even if my parents could have afforded to homeschool me or send me to a private school. I was able to find other Christian friends at the public schools, but I was also able to invite my school friends who weren't Christian to church and youth activities. I learned to articulate my faith to those who asked or challenged it. I was involved in extracurricular activities like band, a dance team, the school newspaper, etc., none of which were offered at the nearest private Christian school.
I don't think it's fair or accurate to dismiss all public schools as evil and inappropriate. Maybe instead of condemning them, we should try to get more Christians to be teaching in them and more strong Christian students in them to be witnesses for Christ. I think it's a matter of being \"in the world, not of the world.\" Although I have complete respect for those who choose to send their kids to private school or homeschool, I don't think that is necessarily God's calling for everyone.
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]What's your church leadership say on it? I mean, as a from-the-pulpit opinion?[/quote]
Jannine,
The APS (Anti-Public-School) group is not getting their beliefs from our church leadership.
The elders in my church are not prone to voicing their opinions on much of anything. [This is an issue for another topic maybe] They always meet in private (secret) and we are left to determine their position on issues by what they do. All of our elders have children in Public School.
On the Sunday when all this came to a head, our Pastor said, from the pulpit, that each family must prayerfully consider what is right for their own family. For some this will be home school, for some private school, and for some Public School. My Pastor's wife is a teacher in the local public middle school and all three of his children attend public school.
I am not conflicted about what is right for my family. My daughter attends public school. The principal of her school is a Christian. Her 2nd grade, 3rd grade, and now 4th grade teachers are all Christians. We have had discussions with all three of these teachers about the need for Christians to be involved in the schools. I know that my daughter is an effective witness for Christ in her school. She talks to her friends, both believers and non-believers, about the Gospel and the principles of Christian living, she has invited both friends and teachers to attend our church. She has even been allowed to post fliers advertising community outreach programs at our church.
The daughter of one our elders leads a weekly bible study at the local middle school. There are several teen-agers who attend our church, without their families, because they were led to Christ by one or more of our teens in the lunch room or locker room.
The militant homeshoolers (not all of the homeschoolers) in our church are deeply involved in the Christian Reconstructionism, Advancing the Kingdom, One-Nation-Under-God movement. I have really been getting an education lately about some of the scarier side issues in modern evangelical christianity.
My thanks to all of you who have helped me keep a a balanced, biblical perspective on these issues.
Richard
I didn't mean to say in my post that homeschooling is limiting to everyone...I meant that if public education were not offered than I would have to homeschool or send them to private school which would limit our family's capabilities. I work and would have to stop doing that in order to homeschool or I would have to work more in order to send my children to private school. That limits my children. They would have more time with me and less resources to work with(and believe me, those resources are few enough as it is) or considerably less time with me and a private school education. I believe I have made the best choice for my children to send them to public school and that is not to say that the best choice for someone else would be to homeschool their children. Janine, I said exactly what you said in my second post...we all benefit from educating as many as well as we can. I didn't mean to say that homeschooling is bad or limiting...only that it would limit my children. grace, Julie
Making your child your apprentice, more or less, is the best. \"When you lie down, when you rise, when you're on the way\" & all that.
And, no matter where your kid picks up his algebra technique or his ability to dissect a crawfish, you will[/b] be homeschooling him, as well! Just because you are a good parent, you know.
Maybe it's OK to go pick up your Hebrew and religious training with the rabbi at the synagogue... :p
No one says the public school system as we have it now it God-designed or even Founding Fathers-designed.
I just like it being there because I don't want my kids growing up & competing with & marrying into a pool of onlyignorant beasts.
Bad enough that there is so much failure in the system; what would you have us to do, jerk the admittedly inadequate school system out from under the students who have nothing else, and draw back into feudal fortresses while the disintegration of society runs on unimpeded, rather than at least being held back by a little opportunity?
My sister and her husband are usually some sort of officers in the statewide Christian homeschooling association they belong to. Their organization sees itself as a support for homeschoolers, as ambassadors for the public, and especially as suppliers of information about homeschooling, the law, etc., for parents and educators.
For example, if parents are considering homeschooling & call the school board office, they are refered to a staff of truant- officer types, people who see homeschooling as warped and something you would be an idiot, and likely a lawbreaker, to do.
These people try to dissuade the parent, but if they can't, they tell them they need to get permission from the school system, and sign up under some sort of home education deal, where the district keeps tabs on you and wants home visits as if you were a questioinable parent.
All the state requires is that you send a letter identifying your home as, basically, a private school:
\"To Whom It May Concern, I am the administrator of Slugabed Private School, we have two students enrolled for the 2002-03 school year.\"
That's it. This letter is sent to the state capitol, not to the individual school district, and it's not asking for any sort of permission, it's telling them what you plan to do. You give no names, Social Secutity numbers, ages, grades, curriculi... nothing.
But, the public isn't told that, because the local-level powers-that-be want to keep a lid on those nasty pesky rebellious homeschoolers.
One school official, a Native American himself, wrote a letter-to-the-editor recently in response to a positive series of articles about homeschooling. He identified homeschoolers as the same sorts of criminals as truants and child abusers and so on. He labeled anyone wishing to homeschool, especially in the Indian community, as someone sneaking around illegally keeping their kids out of school.
I was very wise, I did not fire off to the editor the immediate sharp response I had to that letter.
Now that my head is cooler, I may write to the school board, to that man's actual superior(s), and to the state department of education. Should he have an attitude of disparagement and disgust for the ways of whole segments of the public, the students, he is supposed to serve?
Pardon my rambling... that's what's up with me lately, re: homeschooling.
Skip,
I don't have trouble comprehending much of anything that makes sense, but thanks for asking.
Skip, I would say that lucybelle and myself are not the ones sounding angry and defensive. I feel great about my choices with my children. They are wonderful, warm, well-rounded people who know their Savior and see the need to be the light in the world. I am sorry that you feel your two older children were warped by the public school system but I still believe that exposure is healthy. Christ wants us in the world. If we holed up like monks... Christ's light wouldn't be spread. That is why I choose to work in the environment that I do. It is difficult and I see the worst of the worst and yet I know that these people need to Jesus in someone. I could choose to work in a safe place but I think Jesus calls us to a spirit of boldness. Trust me Skip, when I say that I don't think homeschooling is bad...1/2 of our church homeschools. My children play and interact with those kids almost daily because our church family is our family. As a church, we don't push our thoughts on schooling on each other and the homeschoolers look to my husband for advice with the education of their children. We work together to make it good for all of our children and support each other in the choices we make with our children. Our children have many parents and many grandparents. It is good. grace, Julie
My head is too muddled for a coherent resonse tonight. I'll try to post somethign tomorrow.
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]. I was part of the \"guinea pig\" initial Gifted & Talented program in the early 70's, which came about through \"oil riches\" being available.
[/quote]
Hmmm. . . I was part of our area's pilot program (the \"experimental group\" -- they actually had a \"control group\" who took part in no special programs but were tested at regular intrevals) but I saw no evidence that any money was spent on us. To give you an idea of how our county is thought of by others, though, one of our teachers was in the meeting establishing the program and reported that a teacher from one of the \"weathier\" counties asked why our county was being included, because surely we didn't have any students who would qualify. Think about this--how bad is it when fellow West Virginians think about us like that! It's no wonder I have a huge chip on my shoulder ;) .
Then again I think about the one famous person the school I attended most of my life produced, Chuck Yeager, and I understand. I apologize to anyone who considers him a hero. It's the prophet-without-honor syndrome. That, and I have some stories.
Good grief, I've really gone off the map here. It's three AM, and I think I'm doing free association.
Ahhhhh I see. There's a big difference between a COC Christian school and an interdenominational Christian school. The Bible classes we had were heavy on facts, light on interpretation. It makes a difference.
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]So, does a Christian belong in an environment where the Bible and God are banned?![/quote]
Skip, why would you think God could be banned from anywhere?
Most of my personal experience w/public school has been positive, and my children are both doing very well in their public school, surrounded by caring, intelligent teachers and administers.
On a down note, here in Tulsa, most of the molestations of children by teachers and school employees have happened in private, religious schools (Catholic and fundamentalist). Less oversight seems to lead to problems.
My wife and I thought out whether it would be homeschool or public. We chose public. We talked to my son's kindergarten teacher and found she is a Christian. He is in first grade now and we are blessed in our small town to have a school that promotes Christian values. Veggie tales in school assembly, our kid's ministry promoted during a school open house. The principal is a Christian. We have been extremely blessed. Others have not been and have poor school systems. Ultimately, in my opinion, it is up to parents to teach there children about the Lord and what His word says. If our kids love God and know what He wants them to do or not do then they stand a better chance of making right choices.
Patrick
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Richard @ Oct. 14 2002,10:40)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Should there be Public Schools at all?[/quote]
Interesting question from a guy who is a big fan of a school that was created by a federal land grant and supported by the state through taxation, among other revenue streams. (A&M is a public school)
Richard
:D :D[/quote]
Humm, that should probably be changed. The public universities should be turned into private ones and should be funded by the students who attend and others who would like to make donations.
Kevin
Skip, you are really stretching to make your point with the people that you did. Yes, they were homeschooled but probably with no choice and probably with pretty brilliant parents. There are many out there who couldn't offer a quality kindergarten program to their children much less a quality high school program. There are also children who the only bright moments in their lives are those moments they spend in school with a teacher who adores them more than their own parents adore them. We have to look at the big picture and not just our own little world. Jesus asks us to see the big picture. grace, Julie
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Could it be that God's way was best after all?[/quote]
Skip, did you receive some special revelation? I cannot find a single scripture indicating God's opinion on public education.
I hate to repeat myself, but it is really dangerous to confuse our opinions with God's.
Kari.
Double-posted there, sorry!
Duh, eye yam da prahdukt uv publick skoolin.. I dubble-poast sumtymes.
*********************************
I like to keep younger children in a bubble.
You don't take the spring seedlings, sowed indoors, & stick 'em in the garden, without \"hardening\" them through periodic controlled exposure to the elements.
Then they'll be fitted to live in-the-world-not-of-it.
My experience has been with two schools that teach the right answer :0
lucybelle,
We agree!
It makes no sense at all that the best-funded schools in the world have failed in such a spectacular way, as documented by a variety of news sources over the last decade.
I guess the reason that most of the public hasn't taken notice is that we are products of the system...
What did I learn in the public school system?
I learned that they don't push you very hard to learn, you have to do most of the learning on your own.
I learned that I was the butt of every joke.
I learned that to succeed in life, you needed to do it on your
I learned that people are cruel.
They tried to get me to learn that God didn't exist - I didn't learn that one.
I learned that the key to learning is doing it on your own.
I learned that when they put in your groups, the group will lean on you and expect you to do all the work for them - even if you don't want to.
Where did I learn to do things like read, write, spell, etc.? At home in a non-threatening environment. Definitely not at school.
Kevin
Skip, I don't mean to be dense here, but I am truly not seeing how a hypothetical tax-free, for-profit system would educate children in poverty.
Could you explain, exactly, how we can provide an education for poor children in that setup?
If the child doesn't have shoes that fit, how can they pay for school? If they don't have adequate food, how can they pay for school?
How does a single parent of limited means homeschool? Quit working and go on welfare? Haven't we traded one problem for another?
As far as I can tell, this privatized system will simply not educate the poor. Am I missing something?
Kari.
PS I do certainly agree that we're failing our duty to way to many children, especially the poor. However, I don't see the proposed alternative as better.
I have just graduated from homeschool and I have to say that I enjoyed all my homeschooling days....
About public schools... well for the most part the public schools were nothing compared to my homeschooling.... I learned more than I did in public and against all odds I actually developed socially during my homeschool days....
Unfortunately in my area the public schools are terrible.... and it seems like the same way all over the country....
That leaves us, the homeschoolers, to assume the leadership positions of this country and workplaces.... We are the next leaders because on the whole, we are more rounded and better learned than our public school counterparts....
But they are not evil.... just stupid and misguided....
Just my two cents.....