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       Universalism states that sooner or later all people will be saved. This position holds that the concepts of hell and punishment are inconsistent with a loving God.

       The older form of universalism, originating in the second century, taught that salvation would come after a temporary period of punishment. The newer form of universalism declares that all men are now saved, though all do not realize it. Therefore the job of the preacher and the missionary is to tell people they are already saved. Certain passages - John 12:32, Philippians 2:11, and 1 Timothy 2:4 - are typically twisted out of context in support of universalism.

       Such passages, interpreted properly, do not support universalism:

           * John 12:32 says that Christ's work on the cross makes possible the salvation of both Jews and Gentiles. Notice, however, that the Lord - in the same passage - warned of judgment of those who reject Christ (v. 48).
           * Philippians 2:10-11 assures us that someday all people will acknowledge that Jesus is Lord, but not necessarily as Savior. (Even those in hell will have to acknowledge Christ's Lordship.)
           * First Timothy 2:4 expresses God's desire that all be saved, but does not promise that all will be. This divine desire is only realized in those who exercise faith in Christ.

       The Scriptures consistently categorize people into one of two classes (saved/unsaved, also called believers/unbelievers), and portray the final destiny of every person as being one of two realities (heaven or hell).

           * In Matthew 13:30 Jesus in a parable said, "Let both [tares and wheat] grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn." Here unbelievers and believers are spoken of as tares and wheat. Two classes!
           * In Matthew 13:49 Jesus said, "This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous." Again, two classes are mentioned - unbelievers and believers spoken of as the wicked and the righteous.
           * In Matthew 25:32 Jesus said that following His second coming, "All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats." Here believers and unbelievers are differentiated by the terms "sheep" and "goats." The sheep will enter into God's kingdom (vs. 34) and inherit eternal life (vs. 46). The goats go into eternal punishment (vs. 46).
           * In Luke 16:26 we find Abraham in the afterlife telling the unsaved rich man: "Between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us." Hades apparently had two compartments: "paradise" for the saved, and "torments" for the unsaved - and these compartments were separated by a great chasm or gulf.

       Clearly, then, the Scriptures speak of two classes of people (the saved and the unsaved) and two possible destinies (heaven for the saved; hell for the unsaved). And each respective person ends up in one of these places based upon whether or not he or she placed saving faith in Christ during his or her time on earth (Acts 16:31).

Gen 12:3 And in you [Abraham] all the families of the earth will be blessed.

Gen 22:18 And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice. [This promise is repeated over and over throughout scripture.]

Num 14:20 So the Lord said [speaking to Moses, who is a foretype of Christ as our intercessor], "I have pardoned them according to your word; but indeed, as I live, all the earth will be filled with the glory of the Lord."

II Sam14:14 For we shall surely die and are like water spilled on the ground which cannot be gathered up again. Yet God does not take away life, but plans ways so that the banished one may not be cast out from him.

I Kings 8:43 Hear Thou in heaven Thy dwelling place, and do according to all for which the foreigner calls to Thee, in order that all the peoples of the earth may know Thy name, to fear Thee, as do Thy people Israel, and that they may know that this house which I [Solomon] have built is called by Thy name.

I Kings 8:60 So that all the peoples of the earth may know that the Lord is God; there is no one else.

II Kings19:19 That all the kingdoms of the earth may know that Thou alone, O Lord, art God.

I Chron 16:34 O give thanks to the Lord, for He is good; For His mercy (lovingkindness, NAS) endureth forever.

II Chron 20;21

Give thanks to the Lord, for His mercy endureth forever.

Ps 9:7-8 But the Lord abides forever; He has established His throne for judgment, and He will judge the world in righteousness; He will execute (minister, KJ) judgment for [not against] the peoples with equity.

Ps 22:27-30 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the Lord, and all the families of the nations will worship before Thee. For the kingdom is the Lord's, and He rules over the nations. All the proud [literally, "fat ones"] of the earth will eat and worship, even he who cannot keep his soul alive. Posterity will serve Him.

Ps 30:5 For His anger is but for a moment, His favor is for a lifetime; Weeping may last for the night, but a shout of joy comes in the morning.

Ps 33:8 Let all the earth fear the Lord; let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of Him.

Ps 46:10 Cease striving [be still] and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations; I will be exalted in the earth.

Ps 65:2,5 To Thee all men [lit. all flesh] come...Thou who art the trust of all the ends of the earth and of the farthest sea.

Ps 66:1,4 Shout joyfully to God, all the earth...All the earth will worship Thee, and will sing praises to Thee; they will sing praises to Thy name.

Ps 67:1-7 God be gracious [ed., grace to us] to us and bless us, and cause His face to shine upon us, that Thy way may be known on the earth, Thy salvation among all nations...Let all the peoples praise Thee. Let the nations be glad...for Thou wilt judge the peoples with uprightness, and guide the nations on the earth...that all the ends of the earth may fear Him.

Ps 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, Thou hast led captive [ed., capture in order to set free] Thy captives; Thou hast given gifts among men, even among the rebellious also, that the Lord God may dwell there.

Ps 69:34 Let heaven and earth praise Him, the seas and everything that moves in them.

Ps 72:8-19 May He also rule from sea to sea, and from the river to the ends of the earth...and let all kings bow down before Him, all nations serve Him...Let all nations call Him blessed...And may the whole earth be filled with His glory. Amen and Amen.

Ps 86:9 All nations whom Thou hast made shall come and worship before Thee, O Lord; And they shall glorify Thy name.

Ps 96:1-12 Sing to the Lord, all the earth...His wonderful deeds among all the peoples...Tremble before Him, all the earth...Then all the trees of the forest [ed., a metaphor for all the peoples of the earth] will sing for joy before the Lord, for He is coming...

Ps 98:3,4 All the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God. Shout joyfully to the Lord, all the earth; break forth and sing for joy and sing praises.

Ps 145:9-10 The Lord is good to all, and His mercies are over all His works. All Thy works shall give thanks to Thee, O Lord, and Thy godly ones shall bless Thee.

Ps 145:14-16 The Lord sustains all who fall, and raises up all who are bowed down. The eyes of all look to Thee, and Thou dost give them their food in due time. Thou dost open Thy hand, and dost satisfy the desire of every living thing.

Ps 145:21 And all flesh will bless His holy name forever and ever.

Ps 150:6 Let everything that has breath praise the Lord. Praise the Lord!


Is 19:21 Thus the Lord will make Himself known to Egypt [Ed., they were enemies of God at the time], and the Egyptians will know the Lord in that day. They will even worship with sacrifice and offering, and will make a vow to the Lord and perform it.

Is 19:22 And the Lord will strike Egypt, striking but healing; so they will return to the Lord, and He will respond to them and will heal them.

Is 25:6-8 And the Lord of hosts will prepare a lavish banquet for all peoples on this mountain [Mount Zion]...and on this mountain He will swallow up the covering which is over all peoples, even the veil which is stretched over all nations. He will swallow up death for all time, and the Lord God will wipe tears away from all faces.

Is 26:9 For when the earth experiences Thy judgments, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.

Is 40:5 Then the glory of the Lord will be revealed, and all flesh will see it together; for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.

Is 45:22-23 Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; [Ed., This is a firm declaration of His purpose, not a general call or request for repentance, as is evident by the rest of the verse.] For I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself, the word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness and will not turn back, that to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.

Is 53:6 All of us like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him.

Is 66:18 For I know their works and their thoughts; the time is coming to gather all nations and tongues. And they shall come and see My glory.

Is 66:23 All mankind will come to bow down before Me, says the Lord.

Lam 3:31-32 For the Lord will not reject forever, for if He causes grief, then He will have compassion according to His abundant lovingkindness.

Daniel 7:27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion, and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.

Micah 4:6-7

"In that day," declares the Lord, "I will assemble the lame, and gather the outcasts, even those whom I have afflicted. I will make the lame a remnant, and the outcasts a strong nation, and the Lord will reign over them in Mount Zion from now on and forever.
Micah 7:18-19 Who is a God like Thee, who pardons iniquity and passes over the rebellious act of the remnant of His possession? He does not retain His anger forever, because He delights in unchanging love. He will again have compassion on us; He will tread our iniquities underfoot. Yes, Thou wilt cast all our sins into the depths of the sea.

Hab 2:14 For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

Zeph 2:11 The Lord will be terrifying to them, for He will starve all the gods of the earth; and all the coastlands of the nations will bow down to Him, every one from his own place.

Zeph 3:8-9 Indeed, My decision is to gather nations, to assemble kingdoms, to pour out on them My indignation, all My burning anger; for all the earth will be devoured by the fire of My zeal. For then I will give to the peoples purified lips, that all of them may call on the name of the Lord, to serve Him shoulder to shoulder.

Hag 2:6-9 For thus says the Lord of hosts, "Once more in a little while, I am going to shake the heavens and the earth, the sea also and the dry land. And I will shake all the nations; and they will come [or, the Desire of all nations will come] with the wealth of the nations; and I will fill this house with glory," says the Lord of hosts. "The silver is Mine, and the gold is Mine," declares the Lord of hosts. "The latter glory of this house will be greater than the former," says the Lord of hosts, "and in this place I shall give peace," declares the Lord of hosts.

Zech 2:10-11 Sing for joy and be glad, O daughter of Zion; for behold I am coming and I will dwell in your midst, declares the Lord. And many nations will join themselves to the Lord in that day and will become My people. Then I will dwell in your midst, and you will know that the Lord of hosts has sent Me to you.

Zech 9:10 And He will speak peace to the nations; and His dominion will be from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth.

Mal 1:11 For from the rising of the sun, even to its setting, My name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense is going to be offered to My name, and a grain offering that is pure; for My name will be great among the nations," says the Lord of hosts.

Mal 2:10 Do we not all have one father? Has not one God created us?

Mt 18:12,14 What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? Thus it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.

Lk 2:10 And the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of a great joy which shall be for all the people."

Lk 15:4-7 What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture, and go after the one which is lost, until he finds it? And when [Ed., not if] he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing... I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents, than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

Lk 23:34 Jesus said, "Father forgive them; they know not what they do."


Jn 1:29 The next day he [John the Baptist] saw Jesus coming to him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!"


Jn 3:17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through Him.

Jn 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.


Acts 3;20-21 And that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, whom heaven must receive until the times of the restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

Rom 5:18-20 So then as through one transgression [Adam's] there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness [Christ's] there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One, the many will be made righteous. And the Law came in that the transgression might increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more!

[Ed., As J.B. Phillips so succinctly puts it, "Grace is the ruling factor!"]
Rom 8:19-21 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it in hope, that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

Rom 11:15 For if their rejection [i.e., the Jew's rejection of Christ] be the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

Rom 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in; and thus all Israel will be saved.

Rom 11:32,33

For God has shut up all in disobedience that He might show mercy to all. Oh the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!
Rom 11;36 For from Him [Christ] and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

Rom 14:4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and stand he will, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Rom 14:11 For as it is written, "As I live", says the Lord, "every knee shall bow to me [ie. repentance], and every tongue shall give praise to God". [ie. worship]

I Cor 3:15 If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire.

I Cor 5:4,5 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. [See I Peter 4:6!]

I Cor 13:8 Love never fails.


I Cor 15:22,28

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. But each in his own order... [Ed., This phrase is the real key to understanding God's purposes in relation to His time schedule.] "And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, that God may be all in all."

I Cor 15:54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory."


II Cor 5:14,15 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, that they should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

II Cor 5:18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ, and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was [Ed., and is] in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the nations by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you."


Eph 1:9,10 He make known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fulness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things upon the earth.

Eph 1:22,23 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fulness of Him who fills all in all.

Eph 3:8-11 To me [Paul]...this grace was given...to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God, who created all things; in order that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Eph 4:5,6 There is...one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

Eph 4:10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.

Phil 2:9-11 Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


Phil 3;21 ...who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

Col 1:19-22 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fulness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach.


Col 3:11 Christ is all, and in all.


I Tim 1:13 Even though I [Paul] was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor, yet I was shown mercy, because I acted ignorantly in unbelief.


I Tim 1:15 Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I [Paul] am foremost.

[Ed., Again, if Paul is the foremost sinner, then hasn't God's plan of redemption been accomplished to the foremost?]
I Tim 2:5,6 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to be borne at the proper time.


I Tim 4:10 It is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.


Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men.

Heb 1:2 In these last days He has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

Heb 2:8 For in subjecting all things to him [ie., man], He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him...But we do see Him who has been made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God He might taste death for every one.

Heb 9:26 But now once at the consummation He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

I Pet 2:12 Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may on account of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.

I Pet 3:18-20 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah...

I Pet 4:6 For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that even though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God. (see I Cor 5:5)

II Pet 3:8,9 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing [literally "not purposing", from the Greek: boulema, "predetermined purpose"] that any should perish but for all to come to repentance.


I John 4:14 And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

Rev 5:13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."

Rev 15:3,4 And they sang the song of Moses... and the song of the Lamb, saying, "Great and marvelous are Thy works, O Lord God, the Almighty; Righteous and true are Thy ways, Thou King of the Nations. Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Thy name? For Thou alone art holy; For all the nations will come and worship before Thee, for Thy righteous acts have been revealed."

jiggyfly

Doe this mean that I can go out and get drunk tonight and chase women?

GTM

: GTM  Sat Nov 21, 2009 - 17:19:19
jiggyfly

Doe this mean that I can go out and get drunk tonight and chase women?

GTM

I guess so.  Sin so grace can abound.

: GTM  Sat Nov 21, 2009 - 17:19:19
jiggyfly

Doe this mean that I can go out and get drunk tonight and chase women?

GTM

Hey, GTM.
::laughinghisterically::

Bonnie

Hey, GTM.

Hey to you too! It has been a while.

I am just seeing if I can stir up some dust.   ::smile::

God Bless

GTM

: GTM  Sat Nov 21, 2009 - 18:11:24
Bonnie

Hey, GTM.

Hey to you too! It has been a while.

I am just seeing if I can stir up some dust.   ::smile::

God Bless

GTM

LOL
Always nice to see you posting.  ::tippinghat::

Bonnie

  You are always like a breath of Fresh Kentucky Air.  ::smile::

God Bless.

GTM

: GTM  Sat Nov 21, 2009 - 17:19:19
jiggyfly

Doe this mean that I can go out and get drunk tonight and chase women?

GTM

Is that what is in your heart?

So no one has an answer to the scriptures I posted other than straw man posts. Jest all you want but I did post more than just a scripture or two that support Universal Reconciliation. I know that many of you will just dismiss my post, ignore the scriptures and continue to embrace unending torment in hell as the truth even though it conflicts with scripture and God's character

1John 4:17-18  God is love. When we take up permanent residence in a life of love, we live in God and God lives in us. This way, love has the run of the house, becomes at home and mature in us, so that we're free of worry on Judgment Day—our standing in the world is identical with Christ's. There is no room in love for fear. Well-formed love banishes fear. Since fear is crippling, a fearful life—fear of death, fear of judgment—is one not yet fully formed in love.

Jiggyfly

you quoted

I Pet 2:12 Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may on account of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.

lets start with this one.

What role doe this verse play in universalism?

GTM

: GTM  Sat Nov 21, 2009 - 21:02:10
Jiggyfly

you quoted

I Pet 2:12 Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may on account of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.

lets start with this one.

What role doe this verse play in universalism?

GTM

In this scripture who is going to glorify God? The slandering Gentiles.

Is there any order to your questioning or is it random? Wouldn't be better to start with the first and work down to the last, or is this the first one on the list that you question?

Jiggyfly

In this scripture who is going to glorify God? The slandering Gentiles.

That isn't what the text says.

(Amplified)  12Conduct yourselves properly (honorably, righteously) among the Gentiles, so that, although they may slander you as evildoers, [yet] they may by witnessing your good deeds [come to] glorify God in the day of inspection [[a]when God shall look upon you wanderers as a pastor or shepherd looks over his flock].

This text is not understood as an absolute but as a result of our action. "That they may", suggests the idea that "they might" not that "they will".



I

s there any order to your questioning or is it random? Wouldn't be better to start with the first and work down to the last, or is this the first one on the list that you question?

I just grabbed one and thought I would run with it.  ::nodding::

GTM

if we are already saved according to Universalism then what was the whole purpose of Jesus life, death and resurrection. would not all of that be in vain! Is it not Jesus that said in John 10:9 I am the door, if any man enter in, he shall be saved. John 14:6 Jesus said, I am the way, the truth and the life, no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Romans 10:9, 10 if thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in his heart that God has raised him from the dead thou shall be saved. Vs.10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

These scriptures show me that I have to repent of my sins and ask Jesus into my heart to have a personal relationship with Him. Here are a few more that teaches us how to be saved. There are so many religions out in the world and the only way we will ever know truth is by the Spirit of God teaching us all things. God is not about a mans choice of religion, God is about a personal relationship with His son Christ Jesus.

John 3:3-21 except a man be born again of water and Spirit he cannot enter into the
Kingdom of God. Vs.6 that which is born of the Flesh is flesh and that which is born of the
Spirit is spirit. Flesh cannot perceive the things of the Spirit and is enmity against God,
Romans 8:6, 7.

John 9:31  Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshiper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.

Sin separates us from God because God is a spirit and can only recognize his own children by what spirit is living in their hearts. We have to renew, rebirth - born again, Gods Spirit within us in order to be called a child of God and see the kingdom of heaven. We now put off the old man (flesh) and put on the new man (Spirit), Colossians 3:1-17. We are renewed by the word of God and through the Holy Spirit teaching us of all things, John 14:26.   

: Debbie_55  Sun Nov 22, 2009 - 15:45:34
if we are already saved according to Universalism then what was the whole purpose of Jesus life, death and resurrection. would not all of that be in vain! Is it not Jesus that said in John 10:9 I am the door, if any man enter in, he shall be saved. John 14:6 Jesus said, I am the way, the truth and the life, no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Romans 10:9, 10 if thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in his heart that God has raised him from the dead thou shall be saved. Vs.10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

These scriptures show me that I have to repent of my sins and ask Jesus into my heart to have a personal relationship with Him. Here are a few more that teaches us how to be saved. There are so many religions out in the world and the only way we will ever know truth is by the Spirit of God teaching us all things. God is not about a mans choice of religion, God is about a personal relationship with His son Christ Jesus.

John 3:3-21 except a man be born again of water and Spirit he cannot enter into the
Kingdom of God. Vs.6 that which is born of the Flesh is flesh and that which is born of the
Spirit is spirit. Flesh cannot perceive the things of the Spirit and is enmity against God,
Romans 8:6, 7.

John 9:31  Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshiper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.

Sin separates us from God because God is a spirit and can only recognize his own children by what spirit is living in their hearts. We have to renew, rebirth - born again, Gods Spirit within us in order to be called a child of God and see the kingdom of heaven. We now put off the old man (flesh) and put on the new man (Spirit), Colossians 3:1-17. We are renewed by the word of God and through the Holy Spirit teaching us of all things, John 14:26.  

First off Debbie where did you get the idea that that Universal Reconciliation teaches such a thing? Has anyone here that supports UR beliefs said anything along these lines?  You know there is a difference between stating everyone one is reconciled and everyone will be reconciled. I think you may be confused about what UR is and what it teaches? It might be a help for you to read some of the other threads here concerning the topic.

UR believes that all will be reconciled back to Father through Christ.

: GTM  Sun Nov 22, 2009 - 08:07:24
Jiggyfly

In this scripture who is going to glorify God? The slandering Gentiles.

That isn't what the text says.

(Amplified)  12Conduct yourselves properly (honorably, righteously) among the Gentiles, so that, although they may slander you as evildoers, [yet] they may by witnessing your good deeds [come to] glorify God in the day of inspection [[a]when God shall look upon you wanderers as a pastor or shepherd looks over his flock].

This text is not understood as an absolute but as a result of our action. "That they may", suggests the idea that "they might" not that "they will".



I

s there any order to your questioning or is it random? Wouldn't be better to start with the first and work down to the last, or is this the first one on the list that you question?

I just grabbed one and thought I would run with it.  ::nodding::

GTM

True but it does show that it is a possibility, doesn't it?

Universalism states that sooner or later all people will be saved. This position holds that the concepts of hell and punishment are inconsistent with a loving God.

       The older form of universalism, originating in the second century, taught that salvation would come after a temporary period of punishment. The newer form of universalism declares that all men are now saved, though all do not realize it. Therefore the job of the preacher and the missionary is to tell people they are already saved.

So Jiggy and others are these accurate statements regarding UR?

Is there 2 forms of UR and if so which form do you find to be most Bibically correct?

Any other statements that you'd add to better clarify or communicate your belief of UR?

Sorry Jig, I just can't get my brain around the idea of reading multiple threads to find those few posts that may or may not describe the UR beliefs.

: Dayvd  Sun Nov 22, 2009 - 17:36:08

Universalism states that sooner or later all people will be saved. This position holds that the concepts of hell and punishment are inconsistent with a loving God.

       The older form of universalism, originating in the second century, taught that salvation would come after a temporary period of punishment. The newer form of universalism declares that all men are now saved, though all do not realize it. Therefore the job of the preacher and the missionary is to tell people they are already saved.

So Jiggy and others are these accurate statements regarding UR?

Is there 2 forms of UR and if so which form do you find to be most Bibically correct?

Any other statements that you'd add to better clarify or communicate your belief of UR?

Sorry Jig, I just can't get my brain around the idea of reading multiple threads to find those few posts that may or may not describe the UR beliefs.

The belief of UR that I hold to and am familiar with is the belief that all will be reconciled to Father through Christ. Read some of the other threads concerning this topic and I think it will be very clear what Sherman, I and some of the others believe (by the way there are more than just a few). If your not willing to read the previous posts in another thread,  then isn't it logical to assume that you won't read it here in this thread?

Ms Debbie:

Good verses quoted.

The bottom line: where does the Person and work of Christ fit in? is a good one to ask in relation to any scheme of things that people might suggest.

Take care.

: Debbie_55  Sun Nov 22, 2009 - 15:45:34
if we are already saved according to Universalism then what was the whole purpose of Jesus life, death and resurrection. would not all of that be in vain! Is it not Jesus that said in John 10:9 I am the door, if any man enter in, he shall be saved. John 14:6 Jesus said, I am the way, the truth and the life, no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Romans 10:9, 10 if thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in his heart that God has raised him from the dead thou shall be saved. Vs.10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

These scriptures show me that I have to repent of my sins and ask Jesus into my heart to have a personal relationship with Him. Here are a few more that teaches us how to be saved. There are so many religions out in the world and the only way we will ever know truth is by the Spirit of God teaching us all things. God is not about a mans choice of religion, God is about a personal relationship with His son Christ Jesus.

John 3:3-21 except a man be born again of water and Spirit he cannot enter into the
Kingdom of God. Vs.6 that which is born of the Flesh is flesh and that which is born of the
Spirit is spirit. Flesh cannot perceive the things of the Spirit and is enmity against God,
Romans 8:6, 7.

John 9:31  Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshiper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.

Sin separates us from God because God is a spirit and can only recognize his own children by what spirit is living in their hearts. We have to renew, rebirth - born again, Gods Spirit within us in order to be called a child of God and see the kingdom of heaven. We now put off the old man (flesh) and put on the new man (Spirit), Colossians 3:1-17. We are renewed by the word of God and through the Holy Spirit teaching us of all things, John 14:26.   

JiggyFly

you quoted:

True but it does show that it is a possibility, doesn't it?

But do you agree that they aren't the same thing? Might and will point to two very distinct and different outcomes.

What does the Greek say?

1 Peter 2:12

This text must be understood as a hypothesis or the the antecedent of a conditional proposition.

Here is what the Greek text looks like.

τὴν ἀναστροφὴν ὑμῶν ἐν τοῖς ἔθνεσιν ἔχοντες καλήν, ἵνα ἐν ᾧ καταλαλοῦσιν ὑμῶν ὡς κακοποιῶν ἐκ τῶν καλῶν ἔργων ἐποπτεύοντες δοξάσωσιν τὸν θεὸν ἐν ἡμέρᾳ ἐπισκοπῆς.

Lets first of all take a look at  καταλαλοῦσιν. This is a strong term and in the best manuscripts it speak about that which is  in the accusative case.  ἀναστροφὴν (behavior) and καλήν (excellent) are both accusative. This means to accuse based upon those two terms. In this case the term accuse is a hypothesis or in other words they might accuse you. The text doesn't say that they will accuse you. And the idea of us not living the Holy Life is that there will possibly be malicious gossip.

ἐποπτεύοντες (present active participle nominative plural masculine) The best manuscripts have this as an aorist participle.

It is most likely that the aorist participle was used to tell the readers (Christians) that the Gentiles of Asia (Those watching) must observe their good works which they performed before there would be a  conversion of those who hypothetically were doing the observing and the accusing . This makes the statement conditional.

In the preceding phrase we see the use of the Greek term ek  (ἐκ) which clearly point to the idea of "from". In this case it would be from their good works. Not only are these works seen but it is good that they are seen. As a result of this hypothetical statement we see that they might glorify God on the day of visitation.

Visitation doesn't speak of the Lords return but to a future time when they hear the good News of the Gospel. If you would like, we can take a look at the Greek in regards to that idea also. But I believe that at this point, it is safe to say that this text isn't one that clearly points to all will be saved.


God Bless

GTM



       

: jiggyfly


The belief of UR that I hold to and am familiar with is the belief that all will be reconciled to Father through Christ. Read some of the other threads concerning this topic and I think it will be very clear what Sherman, I and some of the others believe (by the way there are more than just a few). If your not willing to read the previous posts in another thread,  then isn't it logical to assume that you won't read it here in this thread?

Actually no I don't believe it is logical.  Personally if it were me I'd jump at every opportunity to clearly explain my beliefs.  There have been multipe requests made for a clear plain explanation of UR.  Multiple times you and others have commented that others seemingly don't understand UR based on the comments being made.  When asked your reply is that I should read thru multiple threads with a large number of posts all in hopes of somehow piecing together some sort of clear statement. 

Honestly Jig your response is rather 'off putting'.  While I am somewhat interested in a civi discussion of UR, this guessing of meanings and hide & seek is quickly cooling what interest I had.  I did start a search on you and Sherman and quickly came to the conclusion I simply am unwilling to do such a thing.  I've worked all day and am in pain.  I have no time for such nonsense.  So I went to Wiki and will use their understanding.  If it doesn't fit or is incorrect.. you've been given multiple opportunities.

Universal reconciliation, also called universal salvation or sometimes simply universalism, is the doctrine or belief of some Christians that all will receive salvation, regardless of belief, because of the love and mercy of God.

This is the main belief that distinguishes Christian Universalism from other forms of Christianity. Universal reconciliation states that every person will eventually experience salvation. Most forms of the doctrine assert that the suffering and crucifixion of Jesus Christ is the mechanism that provides reconciliation for all humankind and atonement for all sins. This concept is distinct from Unitarian Universalism, which is a syncretic religion that does not attribute particular properties such as salvation to Jesus.

Universal reconciliation is intimately related with the problem of Hell. There are various beliefs and views concerning the process or state of salvation, but all universalists conclude that it ultimately ends in the reconciliation and salvation of all mankind.

The belief in the eventual salvation of all humankind has been a topic of debate throughout the history of the Christian faith. In the early Church, universalism was a flourishing theological doctrine.

: GTM  Sun Nov 22, 2009 - 19:50:25
JiggyFly

you quoted:

True but it does show that it is a possibility, doesn't it?

But do you agree that they aren't the same thing? Might and will point to two very distinct and different outcomes.

What does the Greek say?

1 Peter 2:12



This text must be understood as a hypothesis or the the antecedent of a conditional proposition.

Here is what the Greek text looks like.

τὴν ἀναστροφὴν ὑμῶν ἐν τοῖς ἔθνεσιν ἔχοντες καλήν, ἵνα ἐν ᾧ καταλαλοῦσιν ὑμῶν ὡς κακοποιῶν ἐκ τῶν καλῶν ἔργων ἐποπτεύοντες δοξάσωσιν τὸν θεὸν ἐν ἡμέρᾳ ἐπισκοπῆς.

Lets first of all take a look at  καταλαλοῦσιν. This is a strong term and in the best manuscripts it speak about that which is  in the accusative case.  ἀναστροφὴν (behavior) and καλήν (excellent) are both accusative. This means to accuse based upon those two terms. In this case the term accuse is a hypothesis or in other words they might accuse you. The text doesn't say that they will accuse you. And the idea of us not living the Holy Life is that there will possibly be malicious gossip.

ἐποπτεύοντες (present active participle nominative plural masculine) The best manuscripts have this as an aorist participle.

It is most likely that the aorist participle was used to tell the readers (Christians) that the Gentiles of Asia (Those watching) must observe their good works which they performed before there would be a  conversion of those who hypothetically were doing the observing and the accusing . This makes the statement conditional.

In the preceding phrase we see the use of the Greek term ek  (ἐκ) which clearly point to the idea of "from". In this case it would be from their good works. Not only are these works seen but it is good that they are seen. As a result of this hypothetical statement we see that they might glorify God on the day of visitation.

Visitation doesn't speak of the Lords return but to a future time when they hear the good News of the Gospel. If you would like, we can take a look at the Greek in regards to that idea also. But I believe that at this point, it is safe to say that this text isn't one that clearly points to all will be saved.


God Bless

GTM



     

Yes I agree that "might" is more accurate but they are not forced to glorify God. But this is just one verse out of many.

But lets look at what this visitation is to be exactly, I personally don't agree with limiting it to "hearing the gospel".

: Dayvd  Sun Nov 22, 2009 - 19:53:37

: jiggyfly


The belief of UR that I hold to and am familiar with is the belief that all will be reconciled to Father through Christ. Read some of the other threads concerning this topic and I think it will be very clear what Sherman, I and some of the others believe (by the way there are more than just a few). If your not willing to read the previous posts in another thread,  then isn't it logical to assume that you won't read it here in this thread?

Actually no I don't believe it is logical.  Personally if it were me I'd jump at every opportunity to clearly explain my beliefs.  There have been multipe requests made for a clear plain explanation of UR.  Multiple times you and others have commented that others seemingly don't understand UR based on the comments being made.  When asked your reply is that I should read thru multiple threads with a large number of posts all in hopes of somehow piecing together some sort of clear statement. 

Honestly Jig your response is rather 'off putting'.  While I am somewhat interested in a civi discussion of UR, this guessing of meanings and hide & seek is quickly cooling what interest I had.  I did start a search on you and Sherman and quickly came to the conclusion I simply am unwilling to do such a thing.  I've worked all day and am in pain.  I have no time for such nonsense.  So I went to Wiki and will use their understanding.  If it doesn't fit or is incorrect.. you've been given multiple opportunities.

Universal reconciliation, also called universal salvation or sometimes simply universalism, is the doctrine or belief of some Christians that all will receive salvation, regardless of belief, because of the love and mercy of God.

This is the main belief that distinguishes Christian Universalism from other forms of Christianity. Universal reconciliation states that every person will eventually experience salvation. Most forms of the doctrine assert that the suffering and crucifixion of Jesus Christ is the mechanism that provides reconciliation for all humankind and atonement for all sins. This concept is distinct from Unitarian Universalism, which is a syncretic religion that does not attribute particular properties such as salvation to Jesus.

Universal reconciliation is intimately related with the problem of Hell. There are various beliefs and views concerning the process or state of salvation, but all universalists conclude that it ultimately ends in the reconciliation and salvation of all mankind.

The belief in the eventual salvation of all humankind has been a topic of debate throughout the history of the Christian faith. In the early Church, universalism was a flourishing theological doctrine.

Well I guess maybe I misjudged your motivation and apologize. If you have read any of the other threads surely you have detected those who disregard and ignore such posts and continually post straw man arguments. Where shall we start?

: gospel  Fri Nov 20, 2009 - 17:45:48

Is Universalism Biblical?

No.

In Christ,
KP

: BondServant  Sun Nov 22, 2009 - 20:40:08

: gospel  Fri Nov 20, 2009 - 17:45:48

Is Universalism Biblical?

No.

In Christ,
KP

Do you know the scriptures?

Do you believe that Christ succeeded in what He was sent to do? Do you believe that God works everything according to His will and purpose?

Jiggyfly

You said:

Yes I agree that "might" is more accurate but they are not forced to glorify God. But this is just one verse out of many.

You said that they re not forced to glorify God. This statement is very true. But at the same time this text doesn't say that all do glorify God.


I will address the word visitation tonight.

God Bless and have a good day

GTM

: jiggyflyWhere shall we start?

Personally I'd like to hear you, Sherman or one of the others provide a clear explanation of you belief.  I think I've seen enough that it's pretty clear that those who disagree are somewhat confused about what ya'll are saying.

After that I'd suggest posting the 5 strongest Biblical passages that support your belief.

: jiggyfly  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 05:49:03

: BondServant  Sun Nov 22, 2009 - 20:40:08

: gospel  Fri Nov 20, 2009 - 17:45:48

Is Universalism Biblical?

No.

In Christ,
Bond

Do you know the scriptures?

Do you believe that Christ succeeded in what He was sent to do? Do you believe that God works everything according to His will and purpose?

Yes, yes an yes.  The answer to the original question is still no.

In Christ,
Bond

: BondServant  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 13:09:39

: jiggyfly  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 05:49:03

: BondServant  Sun Nov 22, 2009 - 20:40:08

: gospel  Fri Nov 20, 2009 - 17:45:48

Is Universalism Biblical?

No.

In Christ,
Bond

Do you know the scriptures?

Do you believe that Christ succeeded in what He was sent to do? Do you believe that God works everything according to His will and purpose?

Yes, yes an yes.  The answer to the original question is still no.

In Christ,
Bond

So then you don't believe that Christ was sent to save the world or that It is Gods will for none to perish. I hope you know that your belief conflicts with scripture.

: Dayvd  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 11:13:07

: jiggyflyWhere shall we start?

Personally I'd like to hear you, Sherman or one of the others provide a clear explanation of you belief.  I think I've seen enough that it's pretty clear that those who disagree are somewhat confused about what ya'll are saying.

After that I'd suggest posting the 5 strongest Biblical passages that support your belief.

Sure thing I will work on it tonight when I get home, it may be tomorrow before I post it though, so  your patience is appreciated.

: jiggyfly  Sun Nov 22, 2009 - 16:07:25

: Debbie_55  Sun Nov 22, 2009 - 15:45:34
if we are already saved according to Universalism then what was the whole purpose of Jesus life, death and resurrection. would not all of that be in vain! Is it not Jesus that said in John 10:9 I am the door, if any man enter in, he shall be saved. John 14:6 Jesus said, I am the way, the truth and the life, no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Romans 10:9, 10 if thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in his heart that God has raised him from the dead thou shall be saved. Vs.10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

These scriptures show me that I have to repent of my sins and ask Jesus into my heart to have a personal relationship with Him. Here are a few more that teaches us how to be saved. There are so many religions out in the world and the only way we will ever know truth is by the Spirit of God teaching us all things. God is not about a mans choice of religion, God is about a personal relationship with His son Christ Jesus.

John 3:3-21 except a man be born again of water and Spirit he cannot enter into the
Kingdom of God. Vs.6 that which is born of the Flesh is flesh and that which is born of the
Spirit is spirit. Flesh cannot perceive the things of the Spirit and is enmity against God,
Romans 8:6, 7.

John 9:31  Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshiper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.

Sin separates us from God because God is a spirit and can only recognize his own children by what spirit is living in their hearts. We have to renew, rebirth - born again, Gods Spirit within us in order to be called a child of God and see the kingdom of heaven. We now put off the old man (flesh) and put on the new man (Spirit), Colossians 3:1-17. We are renewed by the word of God and through the Holy Spirit teaching us of all things, John 14:26.  

First off Debbie where did you get the idea that that Universal Reconciliation teaches such a thing? Has anyone here that supports UR beliefs said anything along these lines?  You know there is a difference between stating everyone one is reconciled and everyone will be reconciled. I think you may be confused about what UR is and what it teaches? It might be a help for you to read some of the other threads here concerning the topic.

UR believes that all will be reconciled back to Father through Christ.

jiggyfly I got it from what gospel posted about what they believe.

Is Universalism Biblical?
From an article published by Reasoning from the Scriptures Ministry



        Universalism states that sooner or later all people will be saved. This position holds that the concepts of hell and punishment are inconsistent with a loving God.

        The older form of universalism, originating in the second century, taught that salvation would come after a temporary period of punishment. The newer form of universalism declares that all men are now saved, though all do not realize it. Therefore the job of the preacher and the missionary is to tell people they are already saved. Certain passages - John 12:32, Philippians 2:11, and 1 Timothy 2:4 - are typically twisted out of context in support of universalism.

: Debbie_55  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 13:30:14

: jiggyfly  Sun Nov 22, 2009 - 16:07:25

: Debbie_55  Sun Nov 22, 2009 - 15:45:34
if we are already saved according to Universalism then what was the whole purpose of Jesus life, death and resurrection. would not all of that be in vain! Is it not Jesus that said in John 10:9 I am the door, if any man enter in, he shall be saved. John 14:6 Jesus said, I am the way, the truth and the life, no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Romans 10:9, 10 if thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in his heart that God has raised him from the dead thou shall be saved. Vs.10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

These scriptures show me that I have to repent of my sins and ask Jesus into my heart to have a personal relationship with Him. Here are a few more that teaches us how to be saved. There are so many religions out in the world and the only way we will ever know truth is by the Spirit of God teaching us all things. God is not about a mans choice of religion, God is about a personal relationship with His son Christ Jesus.

John 3:3-21 except a man be born again of water and Spirit he cannot enter into the
Kingdom of God. Vs.6 that which is born of the Flesh is flesh and that which is born of the
Spirit is spirit. Flesh cannot perceive the things of the Spirit and is enmity against God,
Romans 8:6, 7.

John 9:31  Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshiper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.

Sin separates us from God because God is a spirit and can only recognize his own children by what spirit is living in their hearts. We have to renew, rebirth - born again, Gods Spirit within us in order to be called a child of God and see the kingdom of heaven. We now put off the old man (flesh) and put on the new man (Spirit), Colossians 3:1-17. We are renewed by the word of God and through the Holy Spirit teaching us of all things, John 14:26.   

First off Debbie where did you get the idea that that Universal Reconciliation teaches such a thing? Has anyone here that supports UR beliefs said anything along these lines?  You know there is a difference between stating everyone one is reconciled and everyone will be reconciled. I think you may be confused about what UR is and what it teaches? It might be a help for you to read some of the other threads here concerning the topic.

UR believes that all will be reconciled back to Father through Christ.

jiggyfly I got it from what gospel posted about what they believe.

Is Universalism Biblical?
From an article published by Reasoning from the Scriptures Ministry



        Universalism states that sooner or later all people will be saved. This position holds that the concepts of hell and punishment are inconsistent with a loving God.

        The older form of universalism, originating in the second century, taught that salvation would come after a temporary period of punishment. The newer form of universalism declares that all men are now saved, though all do not realize it. Therefore the job of the preacher and the missionary is to tell people they are already saved. Certain passages - John 12:32, Philippians 2:11, and 1 Timothy 2:4 - are typically twisted out of context in support of universalism.

FYI, I would not put much trust into Gospel's opinion or his posted article its just propaganda. Trust the scriptures, and I posted several times more scripture supporting UR than those listed in the OP.

Universal Reconciliation is the belief that all will eventually be reconciled back to God through Christ just as the scriptures plainly and clearly state. Read the scriptures that I posted and see what you think, but try and do it without a preconceived outcome or paradigm.

Didn't Jesus tell everyone to love their enemies and then they would be like His Father in heaven?  If endless torment were true He would have said torture your enemies and then you will be like My Father in heaven.

Do some word studies on aion, aionios, and olam and you will see things begin to line up without all the conflict that exists between the scriptures and endless torment in hell.

: jiggyfly  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 13:22:49

: BondServant  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 13:09:39

: jiggyfly  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 05:49:03

: BondServant  Sun Nov 22, 2009 - 20:40:08

: gospel  Fri Nov 20, 2009 - 17:45:48

Is Universalism Biblical?

No.

In Christ,
Bond

Do you know the scriptures?

Do you believe that Christ succeeded in what He was sent to do? Do you believe that God works everything according to His will and purpose?

Yes, yes an yes.  The answer to the original question is still no.

In Christ,
Bond

So then you don't believe that Christ was sent to save the world or that It is Gods will for none to perish. I hope you know that your belief conflicts with scripture.

That is a pretty presumptuous statement.  You do not even know what my beliefs are.

I'll be nice and tell you my beliefs, and then you prove they conflict with Scripture.

I believe the only way to get to our Father in Heaven is through Jesus Christ.

Prove me wrong.

In Christ,
Bond

: BondServant  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 13:56:25

: jiggyfly  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 13:22:49

: BondServant  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 13:09:39

: jiggyfly  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 05:49:03

: BondServant  Sun Nov 22, 2009 - 20:40:08

: gospel  Fri Nov 20, 2009 - 17:45:48

Is Universalism Biblical?

No.

In Christ,
Bond

Do you know the scriptures?

Do you believe that Christ succeeded in what He was sent to do? Do you believe that God works everything according to His will and purpose?

Yes, yes an yes.  The answer to the original question is still no.

In Christ,
Bond

So then you don't believe that Christ was sent to save the world or that It is Gods will for none to perish. I hope you know that your belief conflicts with scripture.

That is a pretty presumptuous statement.  You do not even know what my beliefs are.

I'll be nice and tell you my beliefs, and then you prove they conflict with Scripture.

I believe the only way to get to our Father in Heaven is through Jesus Christ.

Prove me wrong.

In Christ,
Bond

Why would I want to prove you wrong? I agree with you on this point and have never said anything to the contrary.

But you answered yes to my questions earlier imply that you agree that Jesus accomplished what He was sent to do, He was sent to save the world. You also agreed that Father works everything according to his will and purpose and His will is that none perish. So do you agree that all will be reconciled?

Certain passages - John 12:32, Philippians 2:11, and 1 Timothy 2:4 - are typically twisted out of context in support of universalism.

Debbie 55 that's it in a nutshell....

....They take certain passages such as those above and twist them out of context, totally ignoring the countless distinctions that Jesus Himself made!

Those distinctions are clearly made by Peter, James, John and Paul none of whom ever preached announced or stated that everyone is Saved whether they believe or not.

Those that believe and call on the Name of Jesus will be Saved ....those who do not WILL NOT

What irks me to no end is that people like Jiggy and Sherman who believe in UR use the same argument that Wiccans and atheists use against our Faith.

When they rhetorically ask the question "What kind of God would punish people" and suggest that we have a limited perspective of God's Love ....

...both UR and Pagans all converge in agreement that human accountability for the choices we make is of no concern and ultimately have no consequence on our destination.

Many Wiccans are URs and they are so because they can comfortably participate in a pseudo belief in Christ while maintaining their staunch allegiance to the deities they recognize and embrace.

Any Pagan will tell you all paths "ultimately" lead to the same destination.

UR agrees with that concept and therefore is NOT BIBLICAL

But that is my conclusion. I posted this thread to find out what other "Christians" conclude

The title could have easily been is Jehovah Witness Biblical or is Mormonism Biblical

My answer to those is YES but only according to THEIR bibles, their own tampered  versions to be specific

UR is insidious and more dangerous than both because they use our own bible against us and preclude to tell the rest of us we don't understand it.

Sherman is much more skilled in twisting the scripture than Jiggy. Thats why Jiggy is slow in responding with explanations, he's waiting for Sherman to back him up.
I could be wrong but that's how it appears.

Jiggy is impressed with Sherman because Sherman is masterful in utilizing his theological brilliance and respectful calm demeanor to tell the rest of us how illiterate of the Bible we are.

The problem is the rest of us include all the great Christian thinkers of all time, every great teacher of the gospel of every stripe and denomination from the apostles on forward to the present great men and women of God.
 
I don't believe either Jiggy or Sherman have exceeded any of them...or us in revelatory understanding of The Gospel of Christ
   

: jiggyfly  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 13:24:53

: Dayvd  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 11:13:07

: jiggyflyWhere shall we start?

Personally I'd like to hear you, Sherman or one of the others provide a clear explanation of you belief.  I think I've seen enough that it's pretty clear that those who disagree are somewhat confused about what ya'll are saying.

After that I'd suggest posting the 5 strongest Biblical passages that support your belief.

Sure thing I will work on it tonight when I get home, it may be tomorrow before I post it though, so  your patience is appreciated.

Not a problem Jiggy.  Better to take yer time and get it right the first time.

: jiggyfly  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 14:04:23
But you answered yes to my questions earlier imply that you agree that Jesus accomplished what He was sent to do, He was sent to save the world. You also agreed that Father works everything according to his will and purpose and His will is that noone perish. So do you agree that all will be reconciled?

The Bible does not state that everyone will be reconciled.  It states very clearly that some will not believe and they will die.

I'm going to be blunt, here, because you are ignoring the scriptures that show universalism is a false doctrine.

Universalism is a false doctrine.

The only way to get to our Father is through Jesus Christ.  If you do not accept him by the time He returns for His bride, then you will be left out in the cold.  Matt 25 applies here.

To claim that everybody will be saved is to claim you do not need Jesus and that definitely qualifies as false teaching.

In Christ,
KP

: BondServant  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 14:12:20

: jiggyfly  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 14:04:23

: BondServant  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 13:56:25

: jiggyfly  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 13:22:49

: BondServant  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 13:09:39

: jiggyfly  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 05:49:03

: BondServant  Sun Nov 22, 2009 - 20:40:08

: gospel  Fri Nov 20, 2009 - 17:45:48

Is Universalism Biblical?

No.

In Christ,
Bond

Do you know the scriptures?

Do you believe that Christ succeeded in what He was sent to do? Do you believe that God works everything according to His will and purpose?

Yes, yes an yes.  The answer to the original question is still no.

In Christ,
Bond

So then you don't believe that Christ was sent to save the world or that It is Gods will for none to perish. I hope you know that your belief conflicts with scripture.

That is a pretty presumptuous statement.  You do not even know what my beliefs are.

I'll be nice and tell you my beliefs, and then you prove they conflict with Scripture.

I believe the only way to get to our Father in Heaven is through Jesus Christ.

Prove me wrong.

In Christ,
Bond

Why would I want to prove you wrong? I agree with you on this point anbd have never said anything to the contrary.

But you answered yes to my questions earlier imply that you agree that Jesus accomplished what He was sent to do, He was sent to save the world. You also agreed that Father works everything according to his will and purpose and His will is that noone perish. So do you agree that all will be reconciled?

The Bible does not state that everyone will be reconciled.  It states very clearly that some will not believe and they will die.

I'm going to be blunt, here, because you are ignoring the scriptures that show universalism is a false doctrine.

Universalism is a false doctrine.

The only way to get to our Father is through Jesus Christ.  If you do not accept him by the time He returns for His bride, then you will be left out in the cold.  Matt 25 applies here.

To claim that everybody will be saved is to claim you do not need Jesus and that definitely qualifies as false teaching.

In Christ,
KP

Amen!

::preachit::

: gospel  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 14:05:31

Certain passages - John 12:32, Philippians 2:11, and 1 Timothy 2:4 - are typically twisted out of context in support of universalism.

Debbie 55 that's it in a nutshell....

....They take certain passages such as those above and twist them out of context, totally ignoring the countless distinctions that Jesus Himself made!

Those distinctions are clearly made by Peter, James, John and Paul none of whom ever preached announced or stated that everyone is Saved whether they believe or not.

Those that believe and call on the Name of Jesus will be Saved ....those who do not WILL NOT

What irks me to no end is that people like Jiggy and Sherman who believe in UR use the same argument that Wiccans and atheists use against our Faith.

When they rhetorically ask the question "What kind of God would punish people" and suggest that we have a limited perspective of God's Love ....

...both UR and Pagans all converge in agreement that human accountability for the choices we make is of no concern and ultimately have no consequence on our destination.

Many Wiccans are URs and they are so because they can comfortably participate in a pseudo belief in Christ while maintaining their staunch allegiance to the deities they recognize and embrace.

Any Pagan will tell you all paths "ultimately" lead to the same destination.

UR agrees with that concept and therefore is NOT BIBLICAL

But that is my conclusion. I posted this thread to find out what other "Christians" conclude

The title could have easily been is Jehovah Witness Biblical or is Mormonism Biblical

My answer is only according to their bibles..

UR is insidious and more dangerous than both because they use our own bible against us and preclude to tell the rest of us we don't understand it.

Sherman is much more skilled in twisting the scripture than Jiggy. Thats why Jiggy is slow in responding with explanations, he's waiting for Sherman to back him up.
I could be wrong but that's how it appears.

Jiggy is impressed with Sherman because Sherman is masterful in utilizing his theological brilliance and respectful calm demeanor to tell the rest of us how illiterate of the Bible we are.

The problem is the rest of us include all the great Christian thinkers of all time, every great teacher of the gospel of every stripe and denomination from the apostles on forward to the present great men and women of God.
 
   

Yes Gospel, Sherman and some others here have impressed me,I am sorry if you are offended that your not one of those who have impressed me. It seems you just can't bear the thought that God could show mercy to those you think are unworthy. I find your attitude and your ignorance of the scriptures and Father's character most revealing.

: BondServant  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 14:12:20

: jiggyfly  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 14:04:23
But you answered yes to my questions earlier imply that you agree that Jesus accomplished what He was sent to do, He was sent to save the world. You also agreed that Father works everything according to his will and purpose and His will is that noone perish. So do you agree that all will be reconciled?

The Bible does not state that everyone will be reconciled.  It states very clearly that some will not believe and they will die.

I'm going to be blunt, here, because you are ignoring the scriptures that show universalism is a false doctrine.

Universalism is a false doctrine.

The only way to get to our Father is through Jesus Christ.  If you do not accept him by the time He returns for His bride, then you will be left out in the cold.  Matt 25 applies here.

To claim that everybody will be saved is to claim you do not need Jesus and that definitely qualifies as false teaching.

In Christ,
KP

Have you ever read Paul's letter to the Colossians? You may want to read it and hurry and edit your last post. I'll even help you a little, read Colossians 2:19 and 20.

Yes Gospel, Sherman and some others here have impressed me,I am sorry if you are offended that your not one of those who have impressed me.

Not concerned with impressing you but rather out of compassion, through the Love shed abroad in my heart by the Holy Spirit to gently lead you back into the fold. Actually that's incorrect because you believe in Christ already so you are in the fold.

So actually I'm concerned that you are doing yourself, the Lord and others a great dis-service by telling others they are Saved whether they believe in Jesus or not. That is a very dangerous thing to teach and puts you in league and agreement with a lot of very scary beliefs. You should be "REALLY" concerned that you agree with those who are staunch pagans and wiccans. If you are not I am for you on your behalf

It seems you just can't bear the thought that God could show mercy to those you think are unworthy. I find your attitude and your ignorance of the scriptures and Father's character most revealing.

It seems you can't understand God has shown mercy and love ON HIS TERMS not according to yours, not according to humanistic altruism or the wisdom of men but according to His Good pleasure and purpose with the end result being.....
.... Those who belong to Him who have answered the Call and accepted the Invitation to the Banquet that desire to fellowship with Him for eternity.

No one will be attending the banquet as a result of changing their mind after being punished first ...that's RIDICULOUS and actually contradicts your entire premise of a Loving God.
Even by human standards it doesn't make sense to punish a person to make them accept your Lovingly Free Hearted UNDESERVED invitation ::doh::

: gospel  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 14:30:14

Yes Gospel, Sherman and some others here have impressed me,I am sorry if you are offended that your not one of those who have impressed me.

Not concerned with impressing you but rather out of compassion, through the Love shed abroad in my heart by the Holy Spirit to gently lead you back into the fold. Actually that's incorrect because you believe in Christ already.
So actually I'm concerned that you do yourself and the Lord a dis-service telling others they are Saved whether they believe in Jesus or not. That is a very dangerous thing to teach and puts you in league and agreement with a lot of very scary beliefs. You should be "REALLY" concerned that you agree with those who are staunch pagans and wiccans. If you are not I am for you on your behalf

It seems you just can't bear the thought that God could show mercy to those you think are unworthy. I find your attitude and your ignorance of the scriptures and Father's character most revealing.

It seems you can't understand God has shown mercy and love ON HIS TERMS not according to yours, not according to humanistic altruism or the wisdom of men but according to His Good pleasure and purpose with the end result being.....
.... Those who belong to Him who have answered the Call and accepted the Invitation to the Banquet that desire to fellowship with Him for eternity.

No one will be attending the banquet as a result of changing their mind after being punished first ...that's RIDICULOUS and actually contradicts your entire premise of a Loving God.
Even by human standards it doesn't make sense to punish a person to make them accept your Lovingly Free Hearted UNDESERVED invitation ::doh::

Your simply ludicrous and you don't even know it.

: BondServant  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 14:12:20
The Bible does not state that everyone will be reconciled.  It states very clearly that some will not believe and they will die.

I'm going to be blunt, here, because you are ignoring the scriptures that show universalism is a false doctrine.

Universalism is a false doctrine.

The only way to get to our Father is through Jesus Christ.  If you do not accept him by the time He returns for His bride, then you will be left out in the cold.  Matt 25 applies here.

To claim that everybody will be saved is to claim you do not need Jesus and that definitely qualifies as false teaching.

In Christ,
KP

Well put.

P.S. When were you bonded k-p?

: gospel  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 14:30:14

Yes Gospel, Sherman and some others here have impressed me,I am sorry if you are offended that your not one of those who have impressed me.

Not concerned with impressing you but rather out of compassion, through the Love shed abroad in my heart by the Holy Spirit to gently lead you back into the fold. Actually that's incorrect because you believe in Christ already so you are in the fold.

So actually I'm concerned that you are doing yourself, the Lord and others a great dis-service by telling others they are Saved whether they believe in Jesus or not. That is a very dangerous thing to teach and puts you in league and agreement with a lot of very scary beliefs. You should be "REALLY" concerned that you agree with those who are staunch pagans and wiccans. If you are not I am for you on your behalf

It seems you just can't bear the thought that God could show mercy to those you think are unworthy. I find your attitude and your ignorance of the scriptures and Father's character most revealing.

It seems you can't understand God has shown mercy and love ON HIS TERMS not according to yours, not according to humanistic altruism or the wisdom of men but according to His Good pleasure and purpose with the end result being.....
.... Those who belong to Him who have answered the Call and accepted the Invitation to the Banquet that desire to fellowship with Him for eternity.

No one will be attending the banquet as a result of changing their mind after being punished first ...that's RIDICULOUS and actually contradicts your entire premise of a Loving God.
Even by human standards it doesn't make sense to punish a person to make them accept your Lovingly Free Hearted UNDESERVED invitation ::doh::

Do you even read your own posts? Your the one with all the terms and limitations concerning Father's mercy and grace

: jiggyfly  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 15:03:41

: gospel  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 14:30:14

Yes Gospel, Sherman and some others here have impressed me,I am sorry if you are offended that your not one of those who have impressed me.

Not concerned with impressing you but rather out of compassion, through the Love shed abroad in my heart by the Holy Spirit to gently lead you back into the fold. Actually that's incorrect because you believe in Christ already so you are in the fold.

So actually I'm concerned that you are doing yourself, the Lord and others a great dis-service by telling others they are Saved whether they believe in Jesus or not. That is a very dangerous thing to teach and puts you in league and agreement with a lot of very scary beliefs. You should be "REALLY" concerned that you agree with those who are staunch pagans and wiccans. If you are not I am for you on your behalf

It seems you just can't bear the thought that God could show mercy to those you think are unworthy. I find your attitude and your ignorance of the scriptures and Father's character most revealing.

It seems you can't understand God has shown mercy and love ON HIS TERMS not according to yours, not according to humanistic altruism or the wisdom of men but according to His Good pleasure and purpose with the end result being.....
.... Those who belong to Him who have answered the Call and accepted the Invitation to the Banquet that desire to fellowship with Him for eternity.

No one will be attending the banquet as a result of changing their mind after being punished first ...that's RIDICULOUS and actually contradicts your entire premise of a Loving God.
Even by human standards it doesn't make sense to punish a person to make them accept your Lovingly Free Hearted UNDESERVED invitation ::doh::

Do you e.ven read your own posts? Your the one with all the terms and limitations concerning Father's mercy and grace

Are you reading my posts?....that's the question!


My pointing out to you God's Love and Mercy are according to His terms and are not defined by your humanist understanding IS NOT putting a limitation on His Love Mercy and Grace.

His Love Mercy and Grace have been shown toward us in Jesus, the invitation has been and is being sent out to the uttermost regions of the world, to every nook and cranny of civilization.
Everyone has been invited to the banquet, the Jews first then the Gentiles. But as is common in all functions and events the invitation must be accepted.
Not only must the invitation be accepted, the guests have to be properly attired if they try to sneak in incorrectly attired they will be found out and TOSSED OUT.
I submit to you that attire is The Righteousness of Christ without which no one will be attending the Great Feast ....sorry.

According to the bible No provision will be made for those who are tossed out

The Love of God was shown in the free gift of the invitation

Read Luke 14:15-23 and Matthew 22 1-14

Here's part of Matthew 22


Matthew 22:11-14

11"But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12'Friend,' he asked, 'how did you get in here without wedding clothes?' The man was speechless.

13"Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

14"For many are invited, but few are chosen.

: gospel  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 15:40:11

: jiggyfly  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 15:03:41

: gospel  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 14:30:14

Yes Gospel, Sherman and some others here have impressed me,I am sorry if you are offended that your not one of those who have impressed me.

Not concerned with impressing you but rather out of compassion, through the Love shed abroad in my heart by the Holy Spirit to gently lead you back into the fold. Actually that's incorrect because you believe in Christ already so you are in the fold.

So actually I'm concerned that you are doing yourself, the Lord and others a great dis-service by telling others they are Saved whether they believe in Jesus or not. That is a very dangerous thing to teach and puts you in league and agreement with a lot of very scary beliefs. You should be "REALLY" concerned that you agree with those who are staunch pagans and wiccans. If you are not I am for you on your behalf

It seems you just can't bear the thought that God could show mercy to those you think are unworthy. I find your attitude and your ignorance of the scriptures and Father's character most revealing.

It seems you can't understand God has shown mercy and love ON HIS TERMS not according to yours, not according to humanistic altruism or the wisdom of men but according to His Good pleasure and purpose with the end result being.....
.... Those who belong to Him who have answered the Call and accepted the Invitation to the Banquet that desire to fellowship with Him for eternity.

No one will be attending the banquet as a result of changing their mind after being punished first ...that's RIDICULOUS and actually contradicts your entire premise of a Loving God.
Even by human standards it doesn't make sense to punish a person to make them accept your Lovingly Free Hearted UNDESERVED invitation ::doh::

Do you e.ven read your own posts? Your the one with all the terms and limitations concerning Father's mercy and grace

Are you reading my posts?....that's the question!


My pointing out to you God's Love and Mercy are according to His terms and are not defined by your humanist understanding IS NOT putting a limitation on His Love Mercy and Grace.

His Love Mercy and Grace have been shown toward us in Jesus, the invitation has been and is being sent out to the uttermost regions of the world, to every nook and cranny of civilization.
Everyone has been invited to the banquet, the Jews first then the Gentiles. But as is common in all functions and events the invitation must be accepted.
Not only must the invitation be accepted, the guests have to be properly attired if they try to sneak in incorrectly attired they will be found out and TOSSED OUT.
I submit to you that attire is The Righteousness of Christ without which no one will be attending the Great Feast ....sorry.

According to the bible No provision will be made for those who are tossed out

The Love of God was shown in the free gift of the invitation

Read Luke 14:15-23 and Matthew 22 1-14

Here's part of Matthew 22


Matthew 22:11-14

11"But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12'Friend,' he asked, 'how did you get in here without wedding clothes?' The man was speechless.

13"Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

14"For many are invited, but few are chosen.

Whatever. Gospel I suggest that you stop trying to lead others while you yourself are misled. Jesus called it the blind leading the blind.

According to you and the other UR-ists everyone else is blind. The problem is that every one else includes the most learned theologians, teachers, preachers, disciples and students of the bible across all denominations since the church was first started
From Baptist to Pentecostal, Methodist to Nazarene, Coptic to Greek Orthodox etc, etc etc  

That's how cults start...everybody is wrong except a choice few by way of the ol' us four and no more okie doke.

Charles Taze Russell, Mary Baker Eddy, Joseph Smith ...well you get the picture ::takingphoto::

I hope that you will see the error of your ways and listen to HolySpirit as He reveals the truth to you.  Good day to ya.

::smile::

: gospel  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 16:29:01

Whatever. Gospel I suggest that you stop trying to lead others while you yourself are misled. Jesus called it the blind leading the blind.

According to you and the other UR-ists everyone else is blind. The problem is that every one else includes the most learned theologians, teachers, preachers, disciples and students of the bible across all denominations since the church was first started
From Baptist to Pentecostal, Methodist to Nazarene, Coptic to Greek Orthodox etc, etc etc 

That's how cults start...everybody is wrong except a choice few by way of the ol' us four and no more okie doke.

Charles Taze Russell, Mary Baker Eddy, Joseph Smith ...well you get the picture ::takingphoto::

I hope that you will see the error of your ways and listen to HolySpirit as He reveals the truth to you.  Good day to ya.

::smile::

Seems you are as ignorant of Church history as you are of UR, study the history of the early church Gospel.

Jiggyfly

  What are the five strongest or best verses that you would use to support universalism?

GTM

: gospel  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 14:05:31
Those distinctions are clearly made by Peter, James, John and Paul none of whom ever preached announced or stated that everyone is Saved whether they believe or not.

Those that believe and call on the Name of Jesus will be Saved ....those who do not WILL NOT

As a believer in the ultimate salvation of all mankind I believe what you have said here is true.  All mankind is not already saved and won't be until they bow the knee, and I believe that can happen after death as well as in this lifetime. What I do believe is that all mankind has already been reconciled by the blood of Christ which paves the way, and Christ being the Way, for all to be eventually saved during the ages to come.

What irks me to no end is that people like Jiggy and Sherman who believe in UR use the same argument that Wiccans and atheists use against our Faith.

It's not just UR's and Wiccans who come up with that argument, but most unbelievers and agnostics and a lot of christians who have not come out of the closet for fear of being classed as heretical. There's a lot of peer group pressure (fear of man) in the organized Church. There are many spread through the orthodox denominations who believe in the great hope.

When they rhetorically ask the question "What kind of God would punish people" and suggest that we have a limited perspective of God's Love ....

I think you will find most UR's believe in God's punishment, just that it's not endless.

...both UR and Pagans all converge in agreement that human accountability for the choices we make is of no concern and ultimately have no consequence on our destination.

I hope you are not lumping Christian Universalists in with the Unitarian Universalists. There is a difference. Christian Universalists believe that there is only ONE Way to eternal life, and that through Christ. Unitarians mostly don't, and Wiccans are usually Unitarian Universalists.

Many Wiccans are URs and they are so because they can comfortably participate in a pseudo belief in Christ while maintaining their staunch allegiance to the deities they recognize and embrace.

No, Wiccan's are usually Unitarian Universalists. I have believed in the ultimate salvation of all for nearly four years now and have not come across one Wiccan who is a Christian Universalist.

Any Pagan will tell you all paths "ultimately" lead to the same destination.

UR agrees with that concept and therefore is NOT BIBLICAL

This is not true, and you believe this because you are still very unfamiliar with who UR's are and what they believe.

UR is insidious and more dangerous than both because they use our own bible against us and preclude to tell the rest of us we don't understand it.

Jesus was considered dangerous too, but He came with the LOVE of God to show us the Way.

It's amazing how preaching about the love of God can be considered so dangerous.  ::shrug::

Sherman is much more skilled in twisting the scripture than Jiggy. Thats why Jiggy is slow in responding with explanations, he's waiting for Sherman to back him up.
I could be wrong but that's how it appears.

One could have a bit more understanding too I guess... it's very hard to be the lone voice in a thread with so many against what you are trying to share. It can become very tiring answering so many people so quickly.

The problem is the rest of us include all the great Christian thinkers of all time, every great teacher of the gospel of every stripe and denomination from the apostles on forward to the present great men and women of God.
 
I don't believe either Jiggy or Sherman have exceeded any of them...or us in revelatory understanding of The Gospel of Christ

There have been many great scholars over the history of the Church who believed in UR. Take Sir William Barclay for one example, he passed on a few years ago but was a great theologian and Greek scholar and was accepted by orthodoxy. However, one doesn't need to be a theologian or Greek scholar to be taught by Holy Spirit, wouldn't you agree?

   

: gospel  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 15:40:11

: jiggyfly  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 15:03:41

: gospel  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 14:30:14

Yes Gospel, Sherman and some others here have impressed me,I am sorry if you are offended that your not one of those who have impressed me.

Not concerned with impressing you but rather out of compassion, through the Love shed abroad in my heart by the Holy Spirit to gently lead you back into the fold. Actually that's incorrect because you believe in Christ already so you are in the fold.

So actually I'm concerned that you are doing yourself, the Lord and others a great dis-service by telling others they are Saved whether they believe in Jesus or not. That is a very dangerous thing to teach and puts you in league and agreement with a lot of very scary beliefs. You should be "REALLY" concerned that you agree with those who are staunch pagans and wiccans. If you are not I am for you on your behalf

It seems you just can't bear the thought that God could show mercy to those you think are unworthy. I find your attitude and your ignorance of the scriptures and Father's character most revealing.

It seems you can't understand God has shown mercy and love ON HIS TERMS not according to yours, not according to humanistic altruism or the wisdom of men but according to His Good pleasure and purpose with the end result being.....
.... Those who belong to Him who have answered the Call and accepted the Invitation to the Banquet that desire to fellowship with Him for eternity.

No one will be attending the banquet as a result of changing their mind after being punished first ...that's RIDICULOUS and actually contradicts your entire premise of a Loving God.
Even by human standards it doesn't make sense to punish a person to make them accept your Lovingly Free Hearted UNDESERVED invitation ::doh::

Do you e.ven read your own posts? Your the one with all the terms and limitations concerning Father's mercy and grace

Are you reading my posts?....that's the question!


My pointing out to you God's Love and Mercy are according to His terms and are not defined by your humanist understanding IS NOT putting a limitation on His Love Mercy and Grace.

His Love Mercy and Grace have been shown toward us in Jesus, the invitation has been and is being sent out to the uttermost regions of the world, to every nook and cranny of civilization.
Everyone has been invited to the banquet, the Jews first then the Gentiles. But as is common in all functions and events the invitation must be accepted.
Not only must the invitation be accepted, the guests have to be properly attired if they try to sneak in incorrectly attired they will be found out and TOSSED OUT.
I submit to you that attire is The Righteousness of Christ without which no one will be attending the Great Feast ....sorry.

According to the bible No provision will be made for those who are tossed out

The Love of God was shown in the free gift of the invitation

Read Luke 14:15-23 and Matthew 22 1-14

Here's part of Matthew 22


Matthew 22:11-14

11"But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12'Friend,' he asked, 'how did you get in here without wedding clothes?' The man was speechless.

13"Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

14"For many are invited, but few are chosen.

chezandlilly

you posted

What I do believe is that all mankind has already been reconciled by the blood of Christ which paves the way, and Christ being the Way, for all to be eventually saved during the ages to come.

What Biblical text would you use to support that all mankind has already been saved?

GTM

: GTM  Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 07:27:35
chezandlilly

you posted

What I do believe is that all mankind has already been reconciled by the blood of Christ which paves the way, and Christ being the Way, for all to be eventually saved during the ages to come.

What Biblical text would you use to support that all mankind has already been saved?

GTM

Do you want text that says they've already been saved, or reconciled?

Many Wiccans are URs and they are so because they can comfortably participate in a pseudo belief in Christ while maintaining their staunch allegiance to the deities they recognize and embrace.

No, Wiccan's are usually Unitarian Universalists. I have believed in the ultimate salvation of all for nearly four years now and have not come across one Wiccan who is a Christian Universalist.

Yeah but you are under the mistaken belief that there is a difference between Unitarian Universalists and Christian Universalists....I am not.
They are one in the same saying the same thing except that one uses the Name of Jesus.
They are one in the same because bottom line, both groups are saying all people will "ultimately" be saved whether they accept and believe in Christ or not. Jesus did not say that and that is not Biblical  

Any Pagan will tell you all paths "ultimately" lead to the same destination.

UR agrees with that concept and therefore is NOT BIBLICAL

This is not true, and you believe this because you are still very unfamiliar with who UR's are and what they believe.

If you believe everyone will be Saved even though they do not accept profess and believe in Christ...you indeed believe the same thing as a Unitarian and thereby the same thing as a Wiccan    

Many Wiccans are URs and they are so because they can comfortably participate in a pseudo belief in Christ while maintaining their staunch allegiance to the deities they recognize and embrace.

No, Wiccan's are usually Unitarian Universalists. I have believed in the ultimate salvation of all for nearly four years now and have not come across one Wiccan who is a Christian Universalist.

That is because they are honest about what they believe. They are sure Christ has nothing to do with it, you guys on the other hand believe Christ will Save even them. You say pot-A-toe they say po-TAH-to...in the end its the same!

UR is insidious and more dangerous than both because they use our own bible against us and preclude to tell the rest of us we don't understand it.

Jesus was considered dangerous too, but He came with the LOVE of God to show us the Way.
It's amazing how preaching about the love of God can be considered so dangerous.

Whats amazing and dangerous is how URs redefine the Love of God according to their own limited human understanding of God's Love.
God's Love has been demonstrated in what He has done by providing a way for those who believe, receive and ACCEPT HIS Invitation to Salvation. The Love is demonstrated in the INVITATION OF ALL with no preconditions other than ACCEPTING IT.God is not in the business of making people ACCEPT HIM or Love Him if he were, we wouldn't be having this discussion because Adam would have been created with NO CHOICE other than to OBEY and to LOVE GOD   
A NON BELIEVER must have a PERSONAL REVELATION of Jesus, it cannot be coerced, reasoned or punished into them. If you think it can than you totally mis-characterize and redefined the Love of God according to what you think Love should be according to what you think is fair  ::doh::


For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. Matthew 25:29

Contemplate on the above verse. Please keep in mind these are the Words of The Lord Jesus.
Now consider this...in human terms what Jesus stated in this verse is totally unfair, unloving and unkind. In God's terms it is Just, Right and Truth.
If a person does not have a personal revelation of Jesus or even a basic belief in God, the mo0re they subsist in rebelling, in building an argument and a case for what THEY think and against God, they will continue to stray further and further away from any possibility of spending eternity with Him.

The Love of God professed by UR falls short of its own lofty human ideal in that UR professes that people will eventually Love God by means of an afterlife punishment. ::headscratch::  

I've been off-line for a few days and will likely be off the rest of the week, so please pardon me if I do not respond quickly.  As one who believes that Jesus not only saved/saves me, but also saves everyone else, I'll note some significant errors in the OP.

First note that the term Universalism is a big word covering a wide range of theological beliefs.  In fact, there are Christian Universalists and Non-Christian Universalists.  Christian Universalism is often referred to as Universal Reconciliation and is the perspective from which I'll be critiquing the Opening post/Article.

: gospel  Fri Nov 20, 2009 - 17:45:48

Is Universalism Biblical?

From an article published by Reasoning from the Scriptures Ministry

       Universalism states that sooner or later all people will be saved. This position holds that the concepts of hell and punishment are inconsistent with a loving God.

Christian Universalism does believe that all people "were/are/shall be" saved because of the sacrifice of Christ.  Salvation is completely a work of Grace for us all, especially us who believe.  God is the Father of all humanity and will work things out so that not one of His children shall be lost, but all shall be reconciled to Him.  

The above quote is errant in that Christian Universalists do believe in "punishment" of sin; it's just we believe that when God punishes sin it is for our good, to change us, not to just inflict punishment.  Sin is punished both in this life and in the eternal realm (life to come, afterlife, olam haba, aionios...).

The above is correct in that we do not believe in "Hell", primarily because scripture does not teach of such a place. If you'll notice, English versions are progressively correcting the early mistranslations of scripture into English.  In fact, not a single word in biblical Hebrew or Greek means "Hell".  Sheol and Hades simply means grave.  Tartaroo is only used once and though understood to be a place of torture in Greek Mythology, scripturally it is referred to as only for the devil and his angels and is said to only last until judgment.  And of course, Jesus warned of Gehenna (Jerusalem's trash dump) which was understood by 1st Century Jews to be a theological metaphor of punishment in the afterlife similar to the Catholic concept of Purgatory.  Thus Jesus' words concerning punishment in the afterlife should be understood in that light - a place/event of purification and healing of the souls of humanity, enabling people to abide in the presence of absolute undeniable Truth!

       The older form of universalism, originating in the second century, taught that salvation would come after a temporary period of punishment. The newer form of universalism declares that all men are now saved, though all do not realize it. Therefore the job of the preacher and the missionary is to tell people they are already saved. Certain passages - John 12:32, Philippians 2:11, and 1 Timothy 2:4 - are typically twisted out of context in support of universalism.

Actually, the old form and the new form are the same, just differing terminology.  It's challenging to speak of eternal matters using temporal terminology.  From the perspective of the spiritual time-transcending realm of God, salvation is a settled matter, something that "IS", "Was" and "Shall be", but predominantly something that "IS".  From our earthly temporal perspective, salvation is a settled matter, something that "IS" for some and "shall be" for others.    Both affirm that the sacrifice of Christ is the pivotal point of History that effects the salvation, the Reconciliation of all humanity to God.  

Such passages, interpreted properly, do not support universalism:

           * John 12:32 says that Christ's work on the cross makes possible the salvation of both Jews and Gentiles. Notice, however, that the Lord - in the same passage - warned of judgment of those who reject Christ (v. 48).

Concerning passages being "twisted out of context" to support universalism, actually it is Universalists that appeal to the most evident meaning of these passages.  For example, in Jn.12.32 Jesus says that when He is lifted up, He'll draw all of humanity to Himself.  The Universalists find great comfort in this verse because Jesus specifically says that through His sacrifice He'll draw all humanity to Himself. Salvation is completely a work of Grace.  And Universalists also note that Judgment is mentioned in the passage, but of course we understand judgment to be Remedial and not vindictive; a person's works/life is judged, evil is burnt up, and only the good is left and even it is purified.  In Jn.12, Jesus says that "Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out."  Notice that the purpose of judgment is to drive out evil!  Frankly, the fires of judgment burns the evil/hell out of us.  At least, this is what the context actually says.

* Philippians 2:10-11 assures us that someday all people will acknowledge that Jesus is Lord, but not necessarily as Savior. (Even those in hell will have to acknowledge Christ's Lordship.)

Note that "not necessarily as Savior" is not part of the actual wording of the text or the context.  In fact, consistently through scripture, the acts of bowing and confessing are seen in a positive light, not a dark shadow.  In the light of eternity and the absolute light of truth and revelation of the sacrifice of Christ, who could help but respond in love, adoration, and faith.  Doesn't scripture elsewhere say that a person can only confess Christ by the Spirit!  

Concerning those in "Hell" acknowledging Christ's Lordship, scripture actually says that when Jesus died he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 1 Peter 3:18-20 and 4.6"18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. .... 4.6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.  

So Jesus preached to the spirits in prison, even those who lived during the most wicked and evil time of all human history, the time right before the flood when of the billions of humans alive then and every thought was evil continually, and only one family was found to have faith.  And what was Jesus anointed to preach except "deliverance for the captives"!  So Jesus preached to them so that their flesh, selfishness, could be destroyed and yet their spirits could Live!  Even judgment of these, the most wicked and evil of all humanity ends in their salvation!  Hallelujah!

* First Timothy 2:4 expresses God's desire that all be saved, but does not promise that all will be. This divine desire is only realized in those who exercise faith in Christ.

True, 1 Tim.2.4 only notes that God wants all people to be saved; but 4:10 goes on to say that in fact God is the Savior of all humanity, especially us who believe.  Note that it says "especially", not "only".  "Especially" indicates "part of the whole", not separation but inclusion.  So yes God desires all to be saved, ergo He saves everyone, and is the Savior of all humanity.

There are many such scriptures that indicate that salvation is completely based on the goodness and forgiveness of God and sacrifice of Christ!  On of my favorites is Rom. 5.18

 12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Note that it is the sacrifice of Christ that effects the salvation of all humanity.  In fact, the sacrifice of Christ is greater than the sin of Adam.  The sin of Adam not only resulted in death for all of humanity, but also resulted in all of humanity sinning.  The sacrifice of Christ not only triumphs over the one sin of Adam that plunged all of humanity into death; the sacrifice of Christ even triumphs over all the subsequent sinnnnsssss of humanity bringing us all into Life!

The Scriptures consistently categorize people into one of two classes (saved/unsaved, also called believers/unbelievers), and portray the final destiny of every person as being one of two realities (heaven or hell).

The scriptures speak of both of "all of humanity" and "segments of humanity"; it does not only or "consistently" categorize people.  It speaks from both an eternal and a temporal perspective.  It speaks of both the judgment of people (all humanity) and the judgment of works (how we live).  It's important to look at what each scripture actually says.  

Of course, one thing scripture does NOT speak of is "Hell"!  In fact, the English word "Hell" should not even be in English translations of Scripture.  Not one word in the original texts of scripture means Hell, not Sheol, not Hades, not Tartaroo, not Gehenna.  Modern translations are getting better as they correctly interpret these.  The word "Infernum" (Latin for Hell) was translated INTO scripture by St. Jerome in his Latin Vulgate 110 times.  This Mistranslation of scripture is being progressively corrected, Hallelujah!  To put it plainly, the concept of God either torturing or allowing any of His beloved creation to forever exist in sin and death is NOT a biblical concept.  Let's do look at the scriptures he notes in the following.

* In Matthew 13:30 Jesus in a parable said, "Let both [tares and wheat] grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn." Here unbelievers and believers are spoken of as tares and wheat. Two classes!

Yes, Mt. 13.30 speaks of two divisions of people, but just prior to this in 13.1-23, the parable of the Sower, there are four divisions of people - not Two classes.  In fact, it's talking about 4 different responses to the word, and who of us is not guilty of responding to the word in all 4 of those ways - indifference (hard ground), fear (thorny ground),  indecision (rocky ground), and faith (good ground)!

* In Matthew 13:49 Jesus said, "This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous." Again, two classes are mentioned - unbelievers and believers spoken of as the wicked and the righteous.

First note that the separation being spoken of can very well be (should be, I believe) interpreted as a separation of righteous things in our lives verses wicked things.  We all have good and bad in us, but some day the Lord will judge us all.  The good things will be purified and the bad things will be burnt up.  And because of the bad things, we'll all likely have some repenting (weeping) and remorse (gnashing of teeth) to go through.

           * In Matthew 25:32 Jesus said that following His second coming, "All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats." Here believers and unbelievers are differentiated by the terms "sheep" and "goats." The sheep will enter into God's kingdom (vs. 34) and inherit eternal life (vs. 46). The goats go into eternal punishment (vs. 46).

Actually, it's not "believers" and "unbelievers", but those who "treat well the less fortunate" vs. those who do not "treat well the less fortunate".  I don't know about you, but there are many times when I should have done something good for someone, but did not do so.  We are not only held accountable for what we did but also for what we should have done.  Based on this scripture, who among us can claim to be a "sheep" for we've all missed plenty of opportunities to bless others!

Thank God that salvation is not based on what we do good or bad, but it is based on the precious blood of Christ that He shed for all of humanity!

           * In Luke 16:26 we find Abraham in the afterlife telling the unsaved rich man: "Between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us." Hades apparently had two compartments: "paradise" for the saved, and "torments" for the unsaved - and these compartments were separated by a great chasm or gulf.

Again, note what this scripture actually says, note that the reason the rich man suffered in the afterlife was because he was rich, and the reason that Lazarus was comforted in the afterlife was because he suffered so much in this life.  This scripture speaks of the justice of God, speaking comfort to those of us who suffer terribly, and a warning to those of us who are well off in this life!  It's also important to recognize that the Jews would have understood Jesus to be speaking of Gehenna that the rich man was in, a place of fiery purification where one encounters the fire of Truth about there lives, where there will be terrible repentance (weeping) and terrible remorse (gnashing of teeth)!  The first century Jew would have understood this though to be Remedial punishment that one goes through on their way to Ga Eden, and the rich man would have later been admitted to Ga Eden, Abraham's boosom, heaven.  It is very important to understand the Context of the passage.

       Clearly, then, the Scriptures speak of two classes of people (the saved and the unsaved) and two possible destinies (heaven for the saved; hell for the unsaved). And each respective person ends up in one of these places based upon whether or not he or she placed saving faith in Christ during his or her time on earth (Acts 16:31).

Sadly, the author of this article misinterprets the passages he's quoting and doesn't interpret them based on their context, even their immediate literary context.  Concerning Acts 16.31, note that it's talking about the need for faith for us to be saved today, in the temporal.  For us to embrace and experience in the Now (the temporal) the salvation that Christ has purchased for us all in the eternal, we need to have faith.  But faith is not about us getting into heaven, but about getting heaven into us!  

Well, I've got to go now and don't know when I'll get back to this so please pardon me if you don't hear from me for a week or so.

Blessings,
Sherman

: chezandlilly  Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 06:51:19

: gospel  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 15:40:11

: jiggyfly  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 15:03:41

: gospel  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 14:30:14

Yes Gospel, Sherman and some others here have impressed me,I am sorry if you are offended that your not one of those who have impressed me.

Not concerned with impressing you but rather out of compassion, through the Love shed abroad in my heart by the Holy Spirit to gently lead you back into the fold. Actually that's incorrect because you believe in Christ already so you are in the fold.

So actually I'm concerned that you are doing yourself, the Lord and others a great dis-service by telling others they are Saved whether they believe in Jesus or not. That is a very dangerous thing to teach and puts you in league and agreement with a lot of very scary beliefs. You should be "REALLY" concerned that you agree with those who are staunch pagans and wiccans. If you are not I am for you on your behalf

It seems you just can't bear the thought that God could show mercy to those you think are unworthy. I find your attitude and your ignorance of the scriptures and Father's character most revealing.

It seems you can't understand God has shown mercy and love ON HIS TERMS not according to yours, not according to humanistic altruism or the wisdom of men but according to His Good pleasure and purpose with the end result being.....
.... Those who belong to Him who have answered the Call and accepted the Invitation to the Banquet that desire to fellowship with Him for eternity.

No one will be attending the banquet as a result of changing their mind after being punished first ...that's RIDICULOUS and actually contradicts your entire premise of a Loving God.
Even by human standards it doesn't make sense to punish a person to make them accept your Lovingly Free Hearted UNDESERVED invitation ::doh::

Do you e.ven read your own posts? Your the one with all the terms and limitations concerning Father's mercy and grace

Are you reading my posts?....that's the question!


My pointing out to you God's Love and Mercy are according to His terms and are not defined by your humanist understanding IS NOT putting a limitation on His Love Mercy and Grace.

His Love Mercy and Grace have been shown toward us in Jesus, the invitation has been and is being sent out to the uttermost regions of the world, to every nook and cranny of civilization.
Everyone has been invited to the banquet, the Jews first then the Gentiles. But as is common in all functions and events the invitation must be accepted.
Not only must the invitation be accepted, the guests have to be properly attired if they try to sneak in incorrectly attired they will be found out and TOSSED OUT.
I submit to you that attire is The Righteousness of Christ without which no one will be attending the Great Feast ....sorry.

According to the bible No provision will be made for those who are tossed out

The Love of God was shown in the free gift of the invitation

Read Luke 14:15-23 and Matthew 22 1-14

Here's part of Matthew 22


Matthew 22:11-14

11"But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12'Friend,' he asked, 'how did you get in here without wedding clothes?' The man was speechless.

13"Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

14"For many are invited, but few are chosen.

Again, note what this scripture actually says, note that the reason the rich man suffered in the afterlife was because he was rich, and the reason that Lazarus was comforted in the afterlife was because he suffered so much in this life.  This scripture speaks of the justice of God, speaking comfort to those of us who suffer terribly, and a warning to those of us who are well off in this life!  It's also important to recognize that the Jews would have understood Jesus to be speaking of Gehenna that the rich man was in, a place of fiery purification where one encounters the fire of Truth about there lives, where there will be terrible repentance (weeping) and terrible remorse (gnashing of teeth)!  The first century Jew would have understood this though to be Remedial punishment that one goes through on their way to Ga Eden, and the rich man would have later been admitted to Ga Eden, Abraham's boosom, heaven.  It is very important to understand the Context of the passage.

Nonsense!

It is a preponderance of words yet you're trying validate something that is completely and utterly incorrect!

Take this one statement above...its totally wrong!!!



Now Abram was very rich in livestock, in silver and in gold. Genesis 13:2

Did you not know ABRAHAM WAS RICH? Are you trying to tell us he suffered too?

Wow  ::doh::

: GTM  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 20:23:19
Jiggyfly

  What are the five strongest or best verses that you would use to support universalism?

GTM

GTM there has been three of us now that have asked Jiggyfly to post the scriptures that support universalism, but he has yet to post them and allows Sherman to speak for him and I am not even going to start with the misinterpretations of scripture from Sherman as this is only going to lead in more argument and foolishness and does not bring any glory to God when we argue and debate what God has already said. I will leave this topic with these scriptures and allow people to make up their own mind what they want to believe as even though it is a freewill choice, but the choices we make can be devastating to where we spend eternity.

Hos 4:6  My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hos 4:7  As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

John 3:5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.



 

: Debbie_55  Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 11:39:42

: GTM  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 20:23:19
Jiggyfly

  What are the five strongest or best verses that you would use to support universalism?

GTM

GTM there has been three of us now that have asked Jiggyfly to post the scriptures that support universalism, but he has yet to post them and allows Sherman to speak for him and I am not even going to start with the misinterpretations of scripture from Sherman as this is only going to lead in more argument and foolishness and does not bring any glory to God when we argue and debate what God has already said. I will leave this topic with these scriptures and allow people to make up their own mind what they want to believe as even though it is a freewill choice, but the choices we make can be devastating to where we spend eternity.

Hos 4:6  My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hos 4:7  As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

John 3:5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.



 

::amen!::

 ::idea::

: Debbie_55  Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 11:39:42

: GTM  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 20:23:19
Jiggyfly

 What are the five strongest or best verses that you would use to support universalism?

GTM

GTM there has been three of us now that have asked Jiggyfly to post the scriptures that support universalism, but he has yet to post them and allows Sherman to speak for him and I am not even going to start with the misinterpretations of scripture from Sherman as this is only going to lead in more argument and foolishness and does not bring any glory to God when we argue and debate what God has already said. I will leave this topic with these scriptures and allow people to make up their own mind what they want to believe as even though it is a freewill choice, but the choices we make can be devastating to where we spend eternity.

Hos 4:6  My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hos 4:7  As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

John 3:5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.



 

Debbie try reading post #2and #3 of this thread.

I've come to the conclusion that I could post a gazillion scriptures that support UR and some would just ignore the posts and respond with "can you post scripture?"

: jiggyfly  Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 15:26:36
::idea::

: Debbie_55  Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 11:39:42

: GTM  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 20:23:19
Jiggyfly

 What are the five strongest or best verses that you would use to support universalism?

GTM

GTM there has been three of us now that have asked Jiggyfly to post the scriptures that support universalism, but he has yet to post them and allows Sherman to speak for him and I am not even going to start with the misinterpretations of scripture from Sherman as this is only going to lead in more argument and foolishness and does not bring any glory to God when we argue and debate what God has already said. I will leave this topic with these scriptures and allow people to make up their own mind what they want to believe as even though it is a freewill choice, but the choices we make can be devastating to where we spend eternity.

Hos 4:6  My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hos 4:7  As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

John 3:5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.



 

Debbie try reading post #2and #3 of this thread.

I've come to the conclusion that I could post a gazillion scriptures that support UR and some would just ignore the posts and respond with "can you post scripture?"

Maybe because there is no scripture that supersedes what Jesus said

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned[/i], but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

What I love about this verse is that the word "believe" is used 3 times. Also please note the word Condemned is not in any way modified in any way to be seen or defined as temporary

The John the Baptist someone we can consider pretty much an authority on the Messiah which he dedicated His Life work to prepare others...sealed the whole matter with the following verse.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

: gospel  Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 16:04:40
Maybe because there is no scripture that supersedes what Jesus said

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned[/i], but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

What I love about this verse is that the word "believe" is used 3 times. Also please note the word Condemned is not in any way modified in any way to be seen or defined as temporary

The John the Baptist someone we can consider pretty much an authority on the Messiah which he dedicated His Life work to prepare others...sealed the whole matter with the following verse.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.”

If I am not mistaken it says clearly they WILL NOT SEE LIFE!
Doesn't seem to hem and haw about it ...clearly says WILL NOT

When you follow that with Gods Wrath remains on that person, I think you have a clear instance where eternal damnation is clearly a destination for some.

That's the best post I've seen from you yet, gospel.

I know you feel strongly about this subject, are you equally against the idea of annihilation?

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 16:19:06

: gospel  Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 16:04:40
Maybe because there is no scripture that supersedes what Jesus said

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned[/i], but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

What I love about this verse is that the word "believe" is used 3 times. Also please note the word Condemned is not in any way modified in any way to be seen or defined as temporary

The John the Baptist someone we can consider pretty much an authority on the Messiah which he dedicated His Life work to prepare others...sealed the whole matter with the following verse.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

: gospel  Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 16:04:40

: jiggyfly  Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 15:26:36
::idea::

: Debbie_55  Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 11:39:42

: GTM  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 20:23:19
Jiggyfly

  What are the five strongest or best verses that you would use to support universalism?

GTM

GTM there has been three of us now that have asked Jiggyfly to post the scriptures that support universalism, but he has yet to post them and allows Sherman to speak for him and I am not even going to start with the misinterpretations of scripture from Sherman as this is only going to lead in more argument and foolishness and does not bring any glory to God when we argue and debate what God has already said. I will leave this topic with these scriptures and allow people to make up their own mind what they want to believe as even though it is a freewill choice, but the choices we make can be devastating to where we spend eternity.

Hos 4:6  My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hos 4:7  As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

John 3:5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.



 

Debbie try reading post #2and #3 of this thread.

I've come to the conclusion that I could post a gazillion scriptures that support UR and some would just ignore the posts and respond with "can you post scripture?"

Maybe because there is no scripture that supersedes what Jesus said

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned[/i], but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

What I love about this verse is that the word "believe" is used 3 times. Also please note the word Condemned is not in any way modified in any way to be seen or defined as temporary

The John the Baptist someone we can consider pretty much an authority on the Messiah which he dedicated His Life work to prepare others...sealed the whole matter with the following verse.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

Jiggyfly

  SO you have no verses that stand out in defense of your theological point of view?

We have already established that you were in error in 1 Peter. It didn't support your argument. I was looking for more concrete verses. But if you cannot provide them, that is fine also.


GTM

: GTM  Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 17:57:43
Jiggyfly

  SO you have no verses that stand out in defense of your theological point of view?

We have already established that you were in error in 1 Peter. It didn't support your argument. I was looking for more concrete verses. But if you cannot provide them, that is fine also.


GTM

Sure I have many scriptures but to be honest with you I really don't feel like putting time into it at this moment( lots of things to do for the holiday). Maybe next week but I'm sure it will just be ignored anyway. I posted 10 times the scriptures than those in the OP yet they are ignored.  So at any rate maybe latter on I will post.

: jiggyfly  Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 15:26:36
::idea::

: Debbie_55  Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 11:39:42

: GTM  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 20:23:19
Jiggyfly

 What are the five strongest or best verses that you would use to support universalism?

GTM

GTM there has been three of us now that have asked Jiggyfly to post the scriptures that support universalism, but he has yet to post them and allows Sherman to speak for him and I am not even going to start with the misinterpretations of scripture from Sherman as this is only going to lead in more argument and foolishness and does not bring any glory to God when we argue and debate what God has already said. I will leave this topic with these scriptures and allow people to make up their own mind what they want to believe as even though it is a freewill choice, but the choices we make can be devastating to where we spend eternity.

Hos 4:6  My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hos 4:7  As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

John 3:5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.



 

Debbie try reading post #2and #3 of this thread.

I've come to the conclusion that I could post a gazillion scriptures that support UR and some would just ignore the posts and respond with "can you post scripture?"

Not a single one of those verses stated that a person will be saved regardless of what they believe.

Show that from the Bible, please.

Not a single one of those verses state anything about karma or purgetory.

Show that from the Bible, please.

In Christ,
Bond

Jiggyfly

you quoted:

Sure I have many scriptures but to be honest with you I really don't feel like putting time into it at this moment( lots of things to do for the holiday). Maybe next week but I'm sure it will just be ignored anyway. I posted 10 times the scriptures than those in the OP yet they are ignored.  So at any rate maybe latter on I will post.

You can be assured that I will read and study each one.

Thank You in advance

GTM

: gospel

I have a problem with annihilation only because I believe all spirit beings are eternal. I see damnation as a life sentence for spiritual criminals. Since they live forever God has to sentence them to an eternal place somewhere apart from His Presence.

Satan and his fallen angels are rebels and enemies of God, Although The eternal fire was not created for humans, those who hear the Gospel of Grace and do not turn to Christ remain in allegiance with those who have rebelled.

Matthew 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed,into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. .

Sorry to hear that Gospel.  I hope maybe at some future date we can discuss this topic in depth.

Genesis 3:22 (New International Version)

22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

Until we are allowed to eat there is no eternal life.

James 5:20 (King James Version)

 20Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

John 3:16 (New International Version)

 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Without the "gift" of the Son there is no eternal life.

Romans 6:23 (New International Version)

23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[a] Christ Jesus our Lord.

Eternal life is a gift and without that gift our lives end.

Matthew 7:13 (New International Version)

The Narrow and Wide Gates

 13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

Matthew 10:28 (New International Version)

28Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Revelation 21:8 (New International Version)

8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."


2 Peter 2:12 (New International Version)

12But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.

: gospel  Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 10:38:41
Yeah but you are under the mistaken belief that there is a difference between Unitarian Universalists and Christian Universalists....I am not.
They are one in the same saying the same thing except that one uses the Name of Jesus.
They are one in the same because bottom line, both groups are saying all people will "ultimately" be saved whether they accept and believe in Christ or not. Jesus did not say that and that is not Biblical 

By that line of reasoning I could say that Muslims and Orthodox Christianity are one and the same as both believe in eternal (endless) torment, as do most Greek and Roman Pagan religions.

Christian Universalism says that no-one can be saved other than by the blood of Christ. Wiccans do not.

If you believe everyone will be Saved even though they do not accept profess and believe in Christ...you indeed believe the same thing as a Unitarian and thereby the same thing as a Wiccan   

I did not say everyone will be saved even though they do not accept or profess Christ, you are putting words in my mouth and did not read my prior post.

No-one comes to the Father but through Christ. All roads DO NOT lead to God.... how is that the same as Unitarianism or Wiccan? Who, by the way, believe that one comes to God through self-knowledge and acts of kindness.

Whats amazing and dangerous is how URs redefine the Love of God according to their own limited human understanding of God's Love.
God's Love has been demonstrated in what He has done by providing a way for those who believe, receive and ACCEPT HIS Invitation to Salvation. The Love is demonstrated in the INVITATION OF ALL with no preconditions other than ACCEPTING IT.God is not in the business of making people ACCEPT HIM or Love Him if he were, we wouldn't be having this discussion because Adam would have been created with NO CHOICE other than to OBEY and to LOVE GOD 

I can agree with most of this, God does not force us to believe or obey... however, Holy Spirit does convict and use the Law to bring whoever HE chooses to salvation. It is ONLY by His power and grace that anyone can come to Him. Jesus said we did not choose Him but He chose us. We do not come to Christ using our own initiative. We are drawn.

I do not believe that man in his willfulness or sinful nature or depravity can stand before Christ face to face and not be melted an totally humbled by His presence. Man's willfulness, rebellion and pride are not greater than Christ.

Think on it.

A NON BELIEVER must have a PERSONAL REVELATION of Jesus, it cannot be coerced, reasoned or punished into them. If you think it can than you totally mis-characterize and redefined the Love of God according to what you think Love should be according to what you think is fair  ::doh::

Yes, a non believer MUST have a personal revelation of Jesus. And I agree, they cannot be coerced, reasoned or punished into it. That is what preachers who believe in eternal torment do... IF you don't accept Christ you will go to hell! Accept Christ or you will burn for all eternity!! Is that coercian or what?
Those who believe in eternal torment believe that when God says all knees shall bow and all tongues confess that it means God will coerce and force them to glorify Him before He throws them into the literal lake of fire. 'Glorify' Him by force?

For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.[/color] Matthew 25:29

Contemplate on the above verse. Please keep in mind these are the Words of The Lord Jesus.

Ahh yes... words said and written for Christians.

The Love of God professed by UR falls short of its own lofty human ideal in that UR professes that people will eventually Love God by means of an afterlife punishment. ::headscratch:: 

That's if you believe the lake of fire is retributive and vindictive and you think that is what God is like. UR's believe the fire of God (our God is a consuming fire) to be restorative and remedial.

(Malachi 3:2)"But who may abide the day of His coming? And who shall stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's FIRE, and like fullers' soap".

(1Co 3:15)  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

: chezandlilly  Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 18:44:46
(Malachi 3:2)"But who may abide the day of His coming? And who shall stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's FIRE, and like fullers' soap".

(1Co 3:15)  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Way out of context.  Those apply to believers.

The Lake of Fire is the second death, thanatos, end, cease.

That is what is waiting for everyone whose name is not written in the book of life.

In Christ,
bond

: gospel  Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 10:59:09
Your last statement is made up, doesn't have anything to do with the verses you posted.
Overcomers are believers...they are not made up of non believers who have been punished...where are you getting that?

You have to have CHOSEN LIFE and to be in the Book of Life. Jesus is Life!

You're mixing a lot of stuff up in this response and I am not quite sure what you're TRYING to say.....
But I'd like to point out ...He who has an ear are only those who can hear The Voice of God. They must have a spiritual ear. This does not include mockers, unbelievers and those who profess anti christ beliefs...sorry, They DON'T HAVE AN EAR

You were using the marriage feast to show that unbelievers are kicked out and receive eternal damnation.

I was trying to show you that unbelievers are not invited to the marriage feast to begin with, so how could an unbeliever sneak in? The passage about the marriage feast is to show that christians who are not attired in a spotless white wedding gown will be thrown out. It has nothing to do with unbelievers.

The marriage feast is for believers... and believers who are overcomer's and who have been so cleansed as to be the bride of Christ.. without spot or wrinkle.

: BondServant  Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 18:53:25

: chezandlilly  Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 18:44:46
(Malachi 3:2)"But who may abide the day of His coming? And who shall stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's FIRE, and like fullers' soap".

(1Co 3:15)  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Way out of context.  Those apply to believers.

The Lake of Fire is the second death, thanatos, end, cease.

That is what is waiting for everyone whose name is not written in the book of life.

In Christ,
bond

Where do you get the idea the Malachi verse is only for believers who come to Him in this lifetime?

And I grant you that the Corinthian verse is for believers, however:

1Pe 4:17  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Please don't tell me that 'what shall be the end of them what obey not the gospel of God' means endless torment.

If the second death ends, ceases... then where are those tormented eternally going? Or do you believe in annihilation?

: jiggyfly  Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 17:44:17

: gospel  Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 16:04:40

: jiggyfly  Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 15:26:36
::idea::

: Debbie_55  Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 11:39:42

: GTM  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 20:23:19
Jiggyfly

  What are the five strongest or best verses that you would use to support universalism?

GTM

GTM there has been three of us now that have asked Jiggyfly to post the scriptures that support universalism, but he has yet to post them and allows Sherman to speak for him and I am not even going to start with the misinterpretations of scripture from Sherman as this is only going to lead in more argument and foolishness and does not bring any glory to God when we argue and debate what God has already said. I will leave this topic with these scriptures and allow people to make up their own mind what they want to believe as even though it is a freewill choice, but the choices we make can be devastating to where we spend eternity.

Hos 4:6  My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hos 4:7  As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

John 3:5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.



 

Debbie try reading post #2and #3 of this thread.

I've come to the conclusion that I could post a gazillion scriptures that support UR and some would just ignore the posts and respond with "can you post scripture?"

Maybe because there is no scripture that supersedes what Jesus said

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned[/i], but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

What I love about this verse is that the word "believe" is used 3 times. Also please note the word Condemned is not in any way modified in any way to be seen or defined as temporary

The John the Baptist someone we can consider pretty much an authority on the Messiah which he dedicated His Life work to prepare others...sealed the whole matter with the following verse.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

: jiggyfly  Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 18:04:18

: GTM  Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 17:57:43
Jiggyfly

  SO you have no verses that stand out in defense of your theological point of view?

We have already established that you were in error in 1 Peter. It didn't support your argument. I was looking for more concrete verses. But if you cannot provide them, that is fine also.


GTM

Sure I have many scriptures but to be honest with you I really don't feel like putting time into it at this moment( lots of things to do for the holiday). Maybe next week but I'm sure it will just be ignored anyway. I posted 10 times the scriptures than those in the OP yet they are ignored.  So at any rate maybe latter on I will post.

When Sherman gets back!  rofl

I have a problem with annihilation only because I believe all spirit beings are eternal. I see damnation as a life sentence for spiritual criminals. Since they live forever God has to sentence them to an eternal place somewhere apart from His Presence.

Satan and his fallen angels are rebels and enemies of God, Although The eternal fire was not created for humans, those who hear the Gospel of Grace and do not turn to Christ remain in allegiance with those who have rebelled.

Matthew 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed,into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. .

Sorry to hear that Gospel.  I hope maybe at some future date we can discuss this topic in depth.

Genesis 3:22 (New International Version)

22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

Until we are allowed to eat there is no eternal life.

James 5:20 (King James Version)

20Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

John 3:16 (New International Version)

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Without the "gift" of the Son there is no eternal life.

Romans 6:23 (New International Version)

23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[a] Christ Jesus our Lord.

Eternal life is a gift and without that gift our lives end.

Matthew 7:13 (New International Version)

The Narrow and Wide Gates

13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

Matthew 10:28 (New International Version)

28Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Revelation 21:8 (New International Version)

8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."


2 Peter 2:12 (New International Version)

12But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.

22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

[/quote]

Davyd I would say that even the verses you posted show us that eternal life outside, apart and deprived of the Presence of God is really not life at all and cannot be considered living as defined by God.

That holds true here on earth as well in that Life outside of Christ, void of the New Birth is not Life at all but to them that are without Christ they are in the grips of Spiritual Death.

Just as we were when we were without Christ... all who are not Partakers of the Divine Nature are indeed dead in their trespasses

For It is the Spirit that gives Life

The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. John 6:63


who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life 2 Corinthians 3:6

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.John 5:24

We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death.1 John 3:14

By that line of reasoning I could say that Muslims and Orthodox Christianity are one and the same as both believe in eternal (endless) torment, as do most Greek and Roman Pagan religions.

Christian Universalism says that no-one can be saved other than by the blood of Christ. Wiccans do not.

Wiccans do not believe choosing Christ in this life has any bearing on where they will spend eternity

URs believe the same thing. Under UR theology the Wiccan that does not believe in Christ will end up in the same place with the URs that believe in Christ...therefore

Believing and accepting Christ doesn't matter and on that both Wiccan and URs agree.

Different paths to the same destination.

Christianity is Believing Jesus is the One path and choosing that One path in this life to reach the desired destination!

URs don't believe it matters what you choose in this life...so do Wiccans!

: chezandlilly  Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 19:22:46

Please don't tell me that 'what shall be the end of them what obey not the gospel of God' means endless torment.

If the second death ends, ceases... then where are those tormented eternally going? Or do you believe in annihilation?

I'm not sure what some of those big words mean...I believe in the Bible and the Bible says the Lake of Fire is the second death.

In Christ,
Bond

I do not believe that man in his willfulness or sinful nature or depravity can stand before Christ face to face and not be melted an totally humbled by His presence. Man's willfulness, rebellion and pride are not greater than Christ.

With all due respect... what bible are you reading?

When one reads the gospel one encounters numerous persons that were not melted or humbled by Jesus presence.

Neither did they recognize Him as God in the flesh or His Words as the Words of God

The reality is some will not because they are not His

John 17:6 "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word  

Some will remain in the world

John 14

17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

22Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, "But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?

: gospel  Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 19:46:03

URs don't believe it matters what you choose in this life...so do Wiccans!

Wrong again!! We are to obey the Lord in sharing the gospel and being involved in the ministry of reconciliation. Wiccans don't believe in the gospel. It matters a great deal to me to see people saved NOW..... NOW is the day of Salvation. I want more than anything to see people resurrected from spiritual death and enjoy the life eternal we gain by knowing Christ.

IF you truly love the Lord you will have His heart for the lost. If you don't love, then you don't care.

btw.... how many christians who believe in eternal torment get out there and care where the lost are going and go preach the gospel?
How many live lives pleasing to the Lord?

Quote
For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.[/color] Matthew 25:29

Contemplate on the above verse. Please keep in mind these are the Words of The Lord Jesus.

Ahh yes... words said and written for Christians.

Actually these words were spoken to Jews ::reading::

: chezandlilly  Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 19:55:16

: gospel  Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 19:46:03

URs don't believe it matters what you choose in this life...so do Wiccans!

Wrong again!! We are to obey the Lord in sharing the gospel and being involved in the ministry of reconciliation. Wiccans don't believe in the gospel. It matters a great deal to me to see people saved NOW..... NOW is the day of Salvation. I want more than anything to see people resurrected from spiritual death and enjoy the life eternal we gain by knowing Christ.

IF you truly love the Lord you will have His heart for the lost. If you don't love, then you don't care.

btw.... how many christians who believe in eternal torment get out there and care where the lost are going and go preach the gospel?
How many live lives pleasing to the Lord?

If everyone is going to be Saved anyway your witnessing doesn't matter does it?

Honestly

The more you post the less you seem like a UR

Jiggy and Sherman say everyone is going to be Saved... even if they do not believe but only after a period of punishment

Whats your take on that?

: gospel  Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 19:53:55

With all due respect... what bible are you reading?

When one reads the gospel one encounters numerous persons that were not melted or humbled by Jesus presence.

Neither did they recognize Him as God in the flesh or His Words as the Words of God

I'm not talking about when Jesus was a man on the earth, I'm talking about meeting Him face to face in the realm of the eternal. He will not look like you or me there or weighed down by an earthly body of flesh.

: chezandlilly  Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 20:00:36

: gospel  Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 19:53:55

With all due respect... what bible are you reading?

When one reads the gospel one encounters numerous persons that were not melted or humbled by Jesus presence.

Neither did they recognize Him as God in the flesh or His Words as the Words of God

I'm not talking about when Jesus was a man on the earth, I'm talking about meeting Him face to face in the realm of the eternal. He will not look like you or me there or weighed down by an earthly body of flesh.

Understood but by then ....times up!

Some will be in the Book of Life...others will not....sad but true according to the bible.

That's the purpose of spreading the gospel to help others to choose  Life ::tippinghat::

: gospel  Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 19:59:23

If everyone is going to be Saved anyway your witnessing doesn't matter does it?

Honestly

Honestly, if judgment begins at the house of God now, and knowing from first hand experience the judgments I've been through in my life to cause me to die to the flesh and live unto God, then what is the outcome for those who don't believe now.... pretty darn horrific. I would not want anyone to go through the fire of the second death.. which will be exceedingly painful. I would rather see them saved now and exhort them to become a disciple of Christ... and die daily to the flesh.

The more you post the less you seem like a UR

I don't like to class myself as anything but a christian. UR is simply a doctrine of philosophy and eschatology, it's not a religion.

Jiggy and Sherman say everyone is going to be Saved... even if they do not believe but only after a period of punishment

Whats your take on that?

Very simply put, yes, I believe that....
emphasis on 'going to be', not all are saved now. All are reconciled from God's perpective now.

: gospel  Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 20:06:46

Understood but by then ....times up!

Some will be in the Book of Life...others will not....sad but true according to the bible.

That's the purpose of spreading the gospel to help others to choose  Life ::tippinghat::

Show me from scripture that we can only receive salvation in this lifetime.

: chezandlilly  Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 20:13:29
Show me from scripture that we can only receive salvation in this lifetime.

: Luke 16
19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

: Matthew 25
1"At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
6"At midnight the cry rang out: 'Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!'

7"Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8The foolish ones said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.'

9" 'No,' they replied, 'there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.'

10"But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.

11"Later the others also came. 'Sir! Sir!' they said. 'Open the door for us!'

12"But he replied, 'I tell you the truth, I don't know you.'

In Christ,
Bond

: gospel  Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 16:04:40
Maybe because there is no scripture that supersedes what Jesus said

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned[/i], but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

What I love about this verse is that the word "believe" is used 3 times. Also please note the word Condemned is not in any way modified in any way to be seen or defined as temporary

The John the Baptist someone we can consider pretty much an authority on the Messiah which he dedicated His Life work to prepare others...sealed the whole matter with the following verse.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

: BondServant  Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 20:33:34
19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

You probably think this is real and not a parable, but I believe it to be a parable given to the Pharisee's to show the Kingdom would be taken from them and given to the Gentiles, it has nothing to do with heaven or hell, so you haven't proven to me there is only this life (or age) to receive salvation with this set of scriptures.

: Matthew 25
1"At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
6"At midnight the cry rang out: 'Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!'

7"Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8The foolish ones said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.'

9" 'No,' they replied, 'there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.'

10"But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.

11"Later the others also came. 'Sir! Sir!' they said. 'Open the door for us!'

12"But he replied, 'I tell you the truth, I don't know you.'

In Christ,
Bond

Nor with these. This concerns entry into the marriage feast of the Lamb and has nothing to do with receiving salvation, or being born again, or when. This also shows that many christians who do not go on to cleanse their garments and become the spotless Bride of Christ and do not 'abide in Him' will be cast out of the 'marriage feast'. In other words, not all christians make it to the marriage feast.

: BondServant  Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 19:47:32

: chezandlilly  Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 19:22:46

Please don't tell me that 'what shall be the end of them what obey not the gospel of God' means endless torment.

If the second death ends, ceases... then where are those tormented eternally going? Or do you believe in annihilation?

I'm not sure what some of those big words mean...I believe in the Bible and the Bible says the Lake of Fire is the second death.

In Christ,
Bond

Are you sure you're not a politician? Good skirting job..  ::smile::

So in your opinion (which undoubtedly you get from the scriptures), do those in the Second Death, or, the Lake of Fire, stay in that death/fire, endlessly? If not, what happens to them?

: gospel
Davyd I would say that even the verses you posted show us that eternal life outside, apart and deprived of the Presence of God is really not life at all and cannot be considered living as defined by God.

That holds true here on earth as well in that Life outside of Christ, void of the New Birth is not Life at all but to them that are without Christ they are in the grips of Spiritual Death.

Just as we were when we were without Christ... all who are not Partakers of the Divine Nature are indeed dead in their trespasses

For It is the Spirit that gives Life

The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. John 6:63


who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life 2 Corinthians 3:6

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.John 5:24

We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death.1 John 3:14

God indeed gives Spirit of Life.  God also decides whose Spirit will be eternal and whose will end.

If there was no God as the atheist claims then there would be no difference between a human death and the death of a tree.  AH, but God has a different plan for those who love Him!  That plan is the gift of eternal life!  Praise God for His love!  Without that gift tho, the second death in the lake of fire is the end of the spirit of those who refuse His gift.

: gospel  Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 19:26:55

: jiggyfly  Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 18:04:18

: GTM  Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 17:57:43
Jiggyfly

  SO you have no verses that stand out in defense of your theological point of view?

We have already established that you were in error in 1 Peter. It didn't support your argument. I was looking for more concrete verses. But if you cannot provide them, that is fine also.


GTM

Sure I have many scriptures but to be honest with you I really don't feel like putting time into it at this moment( lots of things to do for the holiday). Maybe next week but I'm sure it will just be ignored anyway. I posted 10 times the scriptures than those in the OP yet they are ignored.  So at any rate maybe latter on I will post.

When Sherman gets back!  rofl

Well while we're waiting on Sherman to get back why don't you answer all the scriptures posted in post #2 and #3.

: GTM  Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 17:57:43
Jiggyfly

  SO you have no verses that stand out in defense of your theological point of view?

We have already established that you were in error in 1 Peter. It didn't support your argument. I was looking for more concrete verses. But if you cannot provide them, that is fine also.


GTM

By the way you were suppose to post your findings on Col 1:19-22, I'm still interested in your opinion on it. You can post it here in this thread. It's one of the scriptures in those I posted at the start of this thread.

: BondServant  Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 18:14:46

: jiggyfly  Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 15:26:36
::idea::

: Debbie_55  Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 11:39:42

: GTM  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 20:23:19
Jiggyfly

  What are the five strongest or best verses that you would use to support universalism?

GTM

GTM there has been three of us now that have asked Jiggyfly to post the scriptures that support universalism, but he has yet to post them and allows Sherman to speak for him and I am not even going to start with the misinterpretations of scripture from Sherman as this is only going to lead in more argument and foolishness and does not bring any glory to God when we argue and debate what God has already said. I will leave this topic with these scriptures and allow people to make up their own mind what they want to believe as even though it is a freewill choice, but the choices we make can be devastating to where we spend eternity.

Hos 4:6  My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hos 4:7  As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

John 3:5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.



 

Debbie try reading post #2and #3 of this thread.

I've come to the conclusion that I could post a gazillion scriptures that support UR and some would just ignore the posts and respond with "can you post scripture?"

Not a single one of those verses stated that a person will be saved regardless of what they believe.

Show that from the Bible, please.

Not a single one of those verses state anything about karma or purgetory.

Show that from the Bible, please.

In Christ,
Bond

I think you have UR mixed up with unitarianism, I don't believe that everyone is reconciled regardless of whether they believe in Christ or not and I don't believe that other religions like buddhism, hinduism, judaism, islam lead to reconciliation, nor have I ever stated such. You assume to much. Read the posts. There is only ONE way to reconciliation with Father and it's through the Son, Jesus the Christ. I do believe that because of God's character, His ability, His will and His plan that are expressed clearly in the scriptures ALL will be reconciled through Christ in the end.



Are we all clear on that?

: gospel  Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 19:56:30

Quote
For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.[/color] Matthew 25:29

Contemplate on the above verse. Please keep in mind these are the Words of The Lord Jesus.

Ahh yes... words said and written for Christians.

Actually these words were spoken to Jews ::reading::

Actually 99% of Jesus' words were spoken to Jews but I find it funny that you didn't make mention of it when you pointed out that nothing supersedes Jesus' words awhile back, and that you use many of his words to support your prosperity gospel. Are you Jewish?

This was a somewhat difficult task to just name five scriptures that I believe support UR because there are so many. But in short here are five that I believe clearly indicate the reconciliation of all humanity.

John 12:31&32    The time of judgment for the world has come, when the prince of this world [fn] will be cast out.   And when I am lifted up on the cross, [fn] I will draw everyone to myself."


Act 3:21   For he must remain in heaven until the time for the final restoration of all things, as God promised long ago through his prophets.

Romans 5:6-21   When we were utterly helpless, Christ came at just the right time and died for us sinners. Now, no one is likely to die for a good person, though someone might be willing to die for a person who is especially good. But God showed his great love for us by sending Christ to die for us while we were still sinners.   And since we have been made right in God's sight by the blood of Christ, he will certainly save us from God's judgment. For since we were restored to friendship with God by the death of his Son while we were still his enemies, we will certainly be delivered from eternal punishment by his life.   So now we can rejoice in our wonderful new relationship with God--all because of what our Lord Jesus Christ has done for us in making us friends of God. When Adam sinned, sin entered the entire human race. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.


 Yes, people sinned even before the law was given. And though there was no law to break, since it had not yet been given, they all died anyway--even though they did not disobey an explicit commandment of God, as Adam did. What a contrast between Adam and Christ, who was yet to come! And what a difference between our sin and God's generous gift of forgiveness. For this one man, Adam, brought death to many through his sin. But this other man, Jesus Christ, brought forgiveness to many through God's bountiful gift. And the result of God's gracious gift is very different from the result of that one man's sin. For Adam's sin led to condemnation, but we have the free gift of being accepted by God, even though we are guilty of many sins. The sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over us, but all who receive God's wonderful, gracious gift of righteousness will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ. Yes, Adam's one sin brought condemnation upon everyone, but Christ's one act of righteousness makes all people right in God's sight and gives them life. Because one person disobeyed God, many people became sinners. But because one other person obeyed God, many people will be made right in God's sight. God's law was given so that all people could see how sinful they were. But as people sinned more and more, God's wonderful kindness became more abundant. So just as sin ruled over all people and brought them to death, now God's wonderful kindness rules instead, giving us right standing with God and resulting in eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Philippians 2:9-11   Because of this, God raised him up to the heights of heaven and gave him a name that is above every other name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,   and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Col 1:19-22   For God in all his fullness was pleased to live in Christ, and by him God reconciled everything to himself. He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth by means of his blood on the cross.   This includes you who were once so far away from God. You were his enemies, separated from him by your evil thoughts and actions, yet now he has brought you back as his friends. He has done this through his death on the cross in his own human body. As a result, he has brought you into the very presence of God, and you are holy and blameless as you stand before him without a single fault.

Like I said earlier I have many more scriptures that support the reconciliation of all things, humanity included. If anyone is interested just let me know.

JiggyFly

Thank You  for the verses. I will be out of town until Friday Evening but when I get back I will begin going through them.

God Bless

GTM

: GTM  Wed Nov 25, 2009 - 06:16:19
JiggyFly

Thank You  for the verses. I will be out of town until Friday Evening but when I get back I will begin going through them.

God Bless

GTM

Your most welcome GTM and hope you have a enjoyable and safe trip.

: jiggyfly  Wed Nov 25, 2009 - 06:10:28
This was a somewhat difficult task to just name five scriptures that I believe support UR because there are so many. But in short here are five that I believe clearly indicate the reconciliation of all humanity.

Thanks Jig!

It is very difficult to decide which five to post.  And then to do so with a bunch of clammering going... I may not agree with you but I am impressed that you came thru.

: Dayvd  Wed Nov 25, 2009 - 06:22:23

: jiggyfly  Wed Nov 25, 2009 - 06:10:28
This was a somewhat difficult task to just name five scriptures that I believe support UR because there are so many. But in short here are five that I believe clearly indicate the reconciliation of all humanity.

Thanks Jig!

It is very difficult to decide which five to post.  And then to do so with a bunch of clammering going... I may not agree with you but I am impressed that you came thru.

Thanks for the encouraging words Dayvd.

I am coming into this late.  I must admit I struggle with the concept of a just God selecting a group (Jews) and making them His children.  (problems with free will)  I also struggle with the concept of those never hearing of Christ being lost because they were born in the wrong place.

However, I also struggle with clear passages like Matt 25

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

While I do not accept universal salvation I understand those who do.   

Show me from scripture that we can only receive salvation in this lifetime.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

Well since hell doesnt exist, aion (translated eternity) means 'age lasting', God says he will one day be ALL IN ALL, Jesus said he would drag all men to himself, Gods will is that all be saved, EVERY tounge will confess Jesus is Lord and no one can confess 'Jesus is Lord' unless they have the holy spirit, I would have to conclude that yes, it is God's will that ALL be saved, and if it is his will then ALL will be saved, i cannot doubt the power of an all LOVING all POWERFUL God, and refuse to put boundaries on a great love which surpasses knowledge.

: gospel  Wed Nov 25, 2009 - 10:56:44
John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

Looking forward to some responses from you guys soon.

Hello everyone; I'm back.  I hope everyone had an awesome Thanksgiving.  We have so much to be thankful for, especially for the love of our Father in heaven, the sacrifice of the Lamb, and the provision of God!

: Johnb  Wed Nov 25, 2009 - 07:12:01
I am coming into this late.  I must admit I struggle with the concept of a just God selecting a group (Jews) and making them His children.  (problems with free will)  I also struggle with the concept of those never hearing of Christ being lost because they were born in the wrong place.

Yes, the character of God being not only Loving, but even Just, much less Merciful argues strongly against the belief that God would allow anyone to be tortured forever even the most evil of people but especially the billions of simple "good" people who have never even heard of Jesus.  And as you mentioned, scripture shows overwhelmingly that God is in control, God is Sovereign choosing whom He will bless (Jacob) and even choosing whom He will reject (Esau), choosing to bless Israel and displace all other peoples, choosing one to be an Apostle and another to be a politician, choosing....

Concerning us as individuals, God chooses: when, to whom, where, how, we are born; our physical, mental, emotional, and even spiritual gift mix; whether or not we'll hear the Gospel; etc. etc. etc.  In the scope of "choices" concerning our lives, we make very few; and even the choices we make are very much influenced by factors that we have absolutely no control over!  So to believe that God would damn people to endless torture, people who have very little "choice", is to believe that God is unjust.   Of course, scripture declares that God is not only Just but even Merciful and Gracious! 

However, I also struggle with clear passages like Matt 25

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Hi John, I appreciate your candor. 

Concerning Mt. 25 (and other such passages) first note that most people are very dependent upon how things are translated by others; and most people who translate scripture ASSUME the traditional doctrine of the certainty of damnation for some to be true.  Scholars that do not ASSUME this doctrine recognize that said scriptures can be interpreted very differently.  Mt. 25 is a good example of this.

1) Note that Judgment in this passage is based on Works, how we actually live our lives, not on any "religious" beliefs (faith and repentance) or acts (prayer, fasting, baptism, worship, etc.).  We will be judged according to whether or not we lived caring for others less fortunate than us. 

2) Note that what is translated "eternal punishment" is actually "kolasin aionion".  "Kolasis" means judgment and/or punishment and specifically means Remedial Punishment, like the punishment a loving father inflicts upon his child to illicit a positive change in his child's character, a reformatory processes.  Jesus did NOT use the word "timoria" which means Judgment that is inflicted to vent the anger of the judge and the demands of "justice".    And as has widely been discussed, the word "aionion", though translated "eternal" does not signify "duration" but "source" and "quality", as in "eternal vs. temporal", of the age to come and not of this age, of the spiritual realm and not of this realm.

When one takes these things into consideration, In this passage in Mt. 25, Jesus is warning people to live rightly and to be especially careful as to how we treat those who are less fortunate.  People whose lives are given over to selfishness and disregard the needs of others will suffer Remedial Punishment in the here-after; but those who are not selfish but give their lives in service of others less fortunate will be blessed with abundant life, the blessing and acceptance of God, in the here-after! 

Of course, this understanding and interpretation of this scripture lines up wonderfully with the concept that God is not only Just, but even merciful and loving, as a Father loves a child and inflicts punishment to effect a positive change in the child.

The Jews would have understood this punishment as the punishment of Gehenna, which was a metaphor of Remedial Punishment in the afterlife.  A person was punished in Gehenna, encountering the fire of Truth concerning their lives until it worked in them the necessary repentance and remorse that would enable them to recieve the forgiveness and healing of God that comes in His presence! 

: gospel  Wed Nov 25, 2009 - 10:56:44

Show me from scripture that we can only receive salvation in this lifetime.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

Hello Sherman, hope you had a wonderful holiday. I ran across this site early this morn and thought it was interesting and wanted to share it with you.

http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d050101.htm

Thanks Jiggy, that's an interesting article though I only paroused it.  I enjoyed thanksgiving with family members I hadn't seen in a few years.  I hope yours was as refreshing.

Blessings,
Sherman

: Debbie_55  Sun Nov 22, 2009 - 15:45:34
if we are already saved according to Universalism then what was the whole purpose of Jesus life, death and resurrection. would not all of that be in vain!

Actually Debbie, it was the sacrifice of Christ that atoned for the sins of all humanity that saves us.  His life teaches us how to live, His death atoned for our sins, and His ressurection assures us that He has overcome death and sin and that He will fulfill on His promises concerning us.  It's Calvinism that limits the scope of the Atonement asserting that Jesus only died for the Elect.  And Arminianism limits the effectiveness of the Atonement asserting that it only effectively saves those who elect to follow Christ.  Christian Universalism is the only Christian belief that does not Limit either the scope or effectiveness of the Atonement, asserting that Jesus' sacrifice effects the salvation of all humanity.

Is it not Jesus that said in John 10:9 I am the door, if any man enter in, he shall be saved. John 14:6 Jesus said, I am the way, the truth and the life, no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Of course, Christian Universalists, along with other Christians believe in the uniqueness of Christ, that Christ is the only way to God. 

Romans 10:9, 10 if thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in his heart that God has raised him from the dead thou shall be saved. Vs.10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

True, faith and confession are foundational elements of us recieving salvation.  We just also believe that scripture is true when it says that one day every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess Jesus as Lord - to the glory of God!  Of course, as long as we, in this life, walk in unbelief failing to recognize Jesus as Lord we'll continue in death, bondage to sin, and unrighteousness.  And thus we implore all to recieve Christ.

These scriptures show me that I have to repent of my sins and ask Jesus into my heart to have a personal relationship with Him. Here are a few more that teaches us how to be saved.

Yes, there are many scriptures that reveal to humanity the salvation of Christ and how to recieve and live in a right relationship with God through faith.  But of course, this does not preclude the truth that in the end God eventually brings all of humanity to have faith in Him. 

There are so many religions out in the world and the only way we will ever know truth is by the Spirit of God teaching us all things. God is not about a mans choice of religion, God is about a personal relationship with His son Christ Jesus.

Agreed.  This is what Christian Universalism teaches. 

John 3:3-21 except a man be born again of water and Spirit he cannot enter into the
Kingdom of God. Vs.6 that which is born of the Flesh is flesh and that which is born of the
Spirit is spirit. Flesh cannot perceive the things of the Spirit and is enmity against God,
Romans 8:6, 7.

John 9:31  Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshiper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.

Sin separates us from God because God is a spirit and can only recognize his own children by what spirit is living in their hearts. We have to renew, rebirth - born again, Gods Spirit within us in order to be called a child of God and see the kingdom of heaven. We now put off the old man (flesh) and put on the new man (Spirit), Colossians 3:1-17. We are renewed by the word of God and through the Holy Spirit teaching us of all things, John 14:26.   

I don't see how any of the scriptures you either quoted or mentioned in any way contradicts the belief that God has through the Cross and will in reality eventually bring all of humanity into right relationship with Him.  Sin no longer separates us from God because of the sacrifice of Christ.  The Atonement has broken the power of sin and freed us to be restored in our relationship with God, to be renewed by the Spirit, not only in the life to come, but even in this life!

: GTM  Sat Nov 21, 2009 - 17:19:19
jiggyfly

Doe this mean that I can go out and get drunk tonight and chase women?

GTM

Apparently this is the same question people asked when Paul preached on grace.  Note that in Romans 5 Paul says very plainly that the sacrifice of Christ restores all humanity into right relationship with God.  Vs. 18 notes, "just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men." 

Some people (like the above) just could not accept such a wonderful promise and apparently responded with "Well, if that's the case, then why don't we just live it up!"  To which Paul replied, "Of course not! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?"  Rom.6.2.  And "15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?"

If Hell was even a potential reality, surely Paul would have mentioned such in response to the question concerning continuing to sin, but he doesn't.  Of course, Paul does point out that sin leads to death and destruction in this life; but he doesn't even threaten aionion krisis, Gehenna, the Remedial Punishment of God in the afterlife!

Of course, the word "Hell" should not even be in the Bible; not one word in the Greek or Hebrew text of scripture means such!  Sheol and Hades both simply means the grave or the realm o fhte dead.  Gehenna was Jerusalem's city trash dump and theologically best translates as Purgatory.  And Tartaroo is said to be the holding place of only the devil and his angels until the judgment implying even that will end.  Even Revelation's metaphor of the lake of fire and brimstone speaks of Remedial Punishment that brings an end to evil in those subjected to it.  (Brimstone was burnt as incense amoung the Greeks for both spiritual purification and even physical healing.)

Sadly, the concept of Hell and endless torture was translated INTO the Bible by St. Jerome when he put forth his Latin Vulgate.  Subsequent English translations have progressively corrected this error.  The Latin Vulgate had the word "Infernum" in it 110 times.  KJV has "Hell" in it 64 times, NKJV - 32 times, and most modern translations only have "Hell" in them 10-14 times - primarily mistranslating Gehenna as "Hell".  And of course, some correctly no longer have the word Hell in them at all!

But tradition is hard to overcome; it truly nullifies the Word of God.  In this case, people continue to believe in the traditional doctrine of Hell even though the word Hell should not even be in the Bible. 

: gospel  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 14:05:31

Certain passages - John 12:32, Philippians 2:11, and 1 Timothy 2:4 - are typically twisted out of context in support of universalism.

Debbie 55 that's it in a nutshell....

....They take certain passages such as those above and twist them out of context, totally ignoring the countless distinctions that Jesus Himself made!

Of course, what you see as "twisting", I see as simply believing what scripture states and not explaining away such wonderful promises of salvation.  When Paul says that the sacrifice of Christ effects all humanity being justified and given life (Rom.5.18), I believe it.  

Those distinctions are clearly made by Peter, James, John and Paul none of whom ever preached announced or stated that everyone is Saved whether they believe or not.

Actually, Christian Universalists believe that all shall eventually come to faith in Christ and repentance from sin.  It's important to not misrepresent another's beliefs; doing so only weakens your arguement.

Those that believe and call on the Name of Jesus will be Saved ....those who do not WILL NOT

Agreed.  It's just we believe that one day every knee shall bow in submission to God and every tongue will confess thier faith in Christ.

What irks me to no end is that people like Jiggy and Sherman who believe in UR use the same argument that Wiccans and atheists use against our Faith.

When they rhetorically ask the question "What kind of God would punish people" and suggest that we have a limited perspective of God's Love ....

Equating Christian Universalists to Wiccans because they might make the same argument in support of a belief is like equating Christianity with Islam because they both believe in One God.  Also, your above statement does not even begin to address the question, but only deflects from it - another weak tactic in debates.  Furthermore, Christian Universalists don't deny that God punishes sin, we just point out that the concept that God endlessly punishes people (Hell) is not scriptural.  Rather, the punishment of God spoken of in scripture is Remedial in nature - to effect positive change in the person being punished - aionion krisis.

...both UR and Pagans all converge in agreement that human accountability for the choices we make is of no concern and ultimately have no consequence on our destination.

As far as "Pagans" go, they have all kinds of beliefs.  However Christian Universalists believe that humans are fully accountable for their actions and beliefs, but such accountability does not negate the promise of Jesus that through his sacrifice he will draw all of humanity to himself.  

Many Wiccans are URs and they are so because they can comfortably participate in a pseudo belief in Christ while maintaining their staunch allegiance to the deities they recognize and embrace.

Any Pagan will tell you all paths "ultimately" lead to the same destination.

UR agrees with that concept and therefore is NOT BIBLICAL

Again you misrepresent what Christian Universalists believe.  All paths do not lead to the same destination.  In fact, broad is the way that leads to destruction and narrow is the path that leads to life.  It is only through Christ, The Way, that we are saved and can know God!

As far as what Pagans or Wiccans believe and whether or not some believe whatever really matters not.  What matters is what scripture says.

But that is my conclusion. I posted this thread to find out what other "Christians" conclude

The title could have easily been is Jehovah Witness Biblical or is Mormonism Biblical

My answer to those is YES but only according to THEIR bibles, their own tampered  versions to be specific

I have no idea what you mean by this.  Christian Universalists use the same Bible that you do; it's just we (or at least I) do appeal to the Greek and Hebrew a little more, relying less on the translations of others.  If that bothers you, oh well!

UR is insidious and more dangerous than both because they use our own bible against us and preclude to tell the rest of us we don't understand it.

Actually, I don't try to judge anyone else; rather, I simply share what I believe and why I've come to believe it.  I recognize that I could be wrong, errant in my understanding of scripture and part of the reason I discuss this on forums like this is hoping that if I am wrong some one will be able to show me where I'm wrong.  Sadly, I find that many people resort to personal attacks, groundless assertions, and illogical arguments, and especially logical errors.  

Sherman is much more skilled in twisting the scripture than Jiggy. Thats why Jiggy is slow in responding with explanations, he's waiting for Sherman to back him up.
I could be wrong but that's how it appears.

Personal attacks and groundless assertions serve to only make the accuser look foolish.  If I am wrong in what I believe, such things certainly can not help me to see differently.  Concerning Jiggy appreciating my posts, are you jealous?  

Jiggy is impressed with Sherman because Sherman is masterful in utilizing his theological brilliance and respectful calm demeanor to tell the rest of us how illiterate of the Bible we are.

Did you just say that I was theologically brilliant and have a calm respectful demeanor? And then in the same scentence accuse me of using such to in some was be disrespectful towards you?  Isn't that an evident contradiction!  

Furthermore, I have not accused or even implied that you or anyone else is "illiterate of the Bible".  I have pointed out why I understand scripture differently than you do, but I purposefully to not get into attacking others because it does no good.  

Such personal demeaning remarks only serve to bring disrespect upon yourself.  If you would refrain from such you might find that others would respect you too though they disagree with you.  What one sows, one reaps.

The problem is the rest of us include all the great Christian thinkers of all time, every great teacher of the gospel of every stripe and denomination from the apostles on forward to the present great men and women of God.
 
I don't believe either Jiggy or Sherman have exceeded any of them...or us in revelatory understanding of The Gospel of Christ

What you just said is simply an overstatement.  The truth is that many throughout Christian history have believed in the reconciliation of all humanity, and many today believe such.  But regardless of how many believe or do not believe is irrelevant; an appeal to the majority has no bearing on whether something is true or not.  In fact, an appeal to the majority is a common logical error, as is an appeal to tradition.  Just because most believe something doesn't make it true.  And just because something is believed to be true traditionally doesn't make it true either.

It's much better to stick to scripture, seeking to understand what God has revealed in it.  Please, let's do stick to discussing scripture and reasoning together over such!

I believe that Jesus Christ truly is the Savior of all humanity, especially us who believe (1 Tim.4.10)!  

: BondServant  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 14:12:20

: jiggyfly  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 14:04:23
But you answered yes to my questions earlier imply that you agree that Jesus accomplished what He was sent to do, He was sent to save the world. You also agreed that Father works everything according to his will and purpose and His will is that noone perish. So do you agree that all will be reconciled?

The Bible does not state that everyone will be reconciled.  It states very clearly that some will not believe and they will die.

Actually KP, there are several scriptures that reveal that all will be reconciled to God.  Rom.5.18 is one of the most plain; "just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men."   Of course, scripture also reveals that in this life not all will believe and thus not all will be privaledged with knowing the Lord in this life.  And of course, because of the sin of Adam, we shall all die, believers and unbelievers alike.

I'm going to be blunt, here, because you are ignoring the scriptures that show universalism is a false doctrine.

Universalism is a false doctrine.

You're welcome to make all the accusations (ignoring scripture) and assertions (Universalism is false) you wish, but such accusations and assertions only carry weight if the person stating such has the authority to declare such judgments.  It would be much better for you to say that you believe Universalism is false.  I believe Christian Universalism is true and will gladly share why I believe such.  Of course, I also recognize that I could be wrong, as I hope you recognize that you could be wrong too.

The only way to get to our Father is through Jesus Christ.  If you do not accept him by the time He returns for His bride, then you will be left out in the cold.  Matt 25 applies here.

I agree that the only way to our Father is through Jesus.  But scripture affirms that one day, whether in this life or the life to come, everyone will accept Christ, every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord.  And Mt. 25.49 speaks of aionian kolasis which is Remedial Punishment, not endless torture. 

To claim that everybody will be saved is to claim you do not need Jesus and that definitely qualifies as false teaching.

In Christ,
KP

To recognize that everyone will be saved through Christ in no way implies that a person does not need Jesus.  In fact, I think even you would agree that without Jesus there is no salvation for everyone and anyone!

If you'd like to look at specific scriptures we can, but simple assertions prove nothing.  I believe scripture indicates that Jesus really does save all of humanity, the the Great Physician heals every soul, bringing all to repentance and faith in him, whether in this life or the life to come (olam haba). 

: gospel  Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 14:30:14

: jiggyflyIt seems you just can't bear the thought that God could show mercy to those you think are unworthy. I find your attitude and your ignorance of the scriptures and Father's character most revealing.

It seems you can't understand God has shown mercy and love ON HIS TERMS not according to yours, not according to humanistic altruism or the wisdom of men but according to His Good pleasure and purpose with the end result being.....
.... Those who belong to Him who have answered the Call and accepted the Invitation to the Banquet that desire to fellowship with Him for eternity.

No one will be attending the banquet as a result of changing their mind after being punished first ...that's RIDICULOUS and actually contradicts your entire premise of a Loving God.
Even by human standards it doesn't make sense to punish a person to make them accept your Lovingly Free Hearted UNDESERVED invitation ::doh::

Actually, loving parents often use Remedial Punishment to help a child have a change of heart and to stop their beloved's destructive patterns of wrong actions and bad attitudes, so that the child they love can enjoy the family celebration. 

This is the essence of Jesus' teachings warning of Gehenna.  Gehenna was a common theological metaphor that spoke of Remedial Punishment in the afterlife, punishment that purified and healed the souls of the dearly departed.  Jews during the time of Christ would mourn a loved one only 11 months, assuming that the loved one had encountered the Remedial Judgment/Punishment of the Lord and had passed from Gehenna to Ga Eden (Paradise).    Of course, if one reads passages that mention Gehenna and are ignorant of the Jewish context and meaning of that metaphor, they are easy to misunderstand. 

The Lord is Good and His Mercy Endures Forever (into the age/life to come, olam haba)!

: jiggyfly  Sun Nov 29, 2009 - 14:10:12
Looking forward to some responses from you guys soon.

Jiggy, UR is basically the twisting of scriptures to make it fit a humanistic understanding and worldview of God...in short it is not biblical.

If you want to see some good responses there are plenty of excellent responses on    10 Reasons not to believe in eternal torment thread

::tippinghat::

: gospel  Wed Dec 09, 2009 - 19:21:43

: jiggyfly  Sun Nov 29, 2009 - 14:10:12
Looking forward to some responses from you guys soon.

Jiggy, UR is basically the twisting of scriptures to make it fit a humanistic understanding and worldview of God...in short it is not biblical.

If you want to see some good responses there are plenty of excellent responses on    10 Reasons not to believe in eternal torment thread

::tippinghat::

Actually UR untwists the scripture interpretations made by some including yourself concerning the false teaching of endless torment. I know there are some very good responses in the other thread I have read what Sherman and a couple of others have posted and thought they were very good. I am glad to see you acknowledging their post.

: jiggyfly  Sun Nov 29, 2009 - 14:10:12
Looking forward to some responses from you guys soon.

Hey Jig,

Personally I've just grown bored of the topic.  I just don't see UR as being Biblically sound and no matter how many times I hear the phrase "remedial punishment" or told that Hell shouldn't be in the Bible... I just ain't going with the idea.  We die, judgement occurs and then some of us will totally cease to exist.  We'll either have eternal life or no life at all.

Why would God give me free will to make choices and then punish me if He doesn't agree with my choice?  Why not just create human robots if our free will is just a inside joke?

: Dayvd  Wed Dec 09, 2009 - 21:43:21

: jiggyfly  Sun Nov 29, 2009 - 14:10:12
Looking forward to some responses from you guys soon.

Hey Jig,

Personally I've just grown bored of the topic.  I just don't see UR as being Biblically sound and no matter how many times I hear the phrase "remedial punishment" or told that Hell shouldn't be in the Bible... I just ain't going with the idea.  We die, judgement occurs and then some of us will totally cease to exist.  We'll either have eternal life or no life at all.

Why would God give me free will to make choices and then punish me if He doesn't agree with my choice?  Why not just create human robots if our free will is just a inside joke?

NP Dayvd and seeing how you have grown bored bored with the topic and I really don't feel like reposting all the scriptures that clearly show UR why don't we leave it there and if at a later time you decide to engage  again you can pull up this thread and we can discuss the scriptures that were posted. God bless you.

: gospel  Wed Nov 25, 2009 - 10:56:44

Show me from scripture that we can only receive salvation in this lifetime.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

Gospel, have yet to see you address the scriptures in post #2 and #3 of this thread.

Is Universalism Biblical.
Of course, thats why the early church taught it for 500 years before pagans came into the church with their eternal punishment doctrine and changed the words, hell, eternal, punishment, etc etc.  ::clappingoverhead:: ::pray::

: godisuniversal  Sun Dec 27, 2009 - 20:53:39
Is Universalism Biblical.
Of course, thats why the early church taught it for 500 years before pagans came into the church with their eternal punishment doctrine and changed the words, hell, eternal, punishment, etc etc.  ::clappingoverhead:: ::pray::

Universalism is an abomination that totally misses who God is and what His plan for the salvation of mankind is.

==========================================
  Is Universalism Biblical.
Of course, thats why the early church taught it for 500 years before pagans came into the church with their eternal punishment doctrine and changed the words, hell, eternal, punishment, etc etc.
=========================================

  Do you regard Revelation 21 and 22 a closing glimpse into the eternal age ?
  Or do you think that there is another place in the Bible where we are told more extensively the matters regarding what is happening in the new heaven and new earth in eternity ?

  I believe that the final glimpse into the things regarding eternity are in Revelation 21 and 22. And there I read these words:

"Blessed are those who wash their robes that they may have right to the tree of life and may enter by the gates into the city.

Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the fornicators and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone who loves and makes a lie." (Rev. 22:14.15)

 This passage tells us what kinds of people are OUTSIDE of the holy city of God's salvation.  I could assume that it simply means that New Jerusalem does not include any of these types. And probably the list is representative rather than exhaustive.

Now the reason I have trouble interpreting verse 15 as merely telling us who is not in New Jerusalem are a couple:

1.) The passage does not say that they do not exist. It says that they are outside. It doesn't simply say that none of these are in the city. It says that they are outside.

2.) Revelation 21:8   tells us where these offenders are.

  "But the cowardly and the unbelieving and abominable and murderers and fornicators and sorcerers and idolaters and all the false, their part will be in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

  Revelation 22:15 tells me that the offenders who are unreconciled to God are outside of the New Jerusalem. But Revelation 21:8 tells me WHERE outside the New Jerusalem they are. They are in the lake which burns with fire and brimestone.

 Once again, these two chapters are a glimpse into the happenings of the eternal age.
 How then can Universalism be true ?

 Could you please answer that ?

Please explain to me how its possible that the second death goes on and on without end? This is of course your definition of eternal, which is flawed by the way. The Scriptures clearly state that death will be NO MORE. If there's no more death there can only be life. This is precisely what this verse tells us.

Unveiling 21:4

4 And He will be brushing away every tear from their eyes. And death will be no more, nor mourning, nor clamor, nor misery; they will be no more, for the former things passed away."

Please answer another question. Do you take the Unveiling as literal? It is not. The following verse proves it.

Chapter 1
1 The Unveiling of Jesus Christ, which God gives to Him, to show to His slaves what must occur swiftly; and He signifies it, dispatching through His messenger to His slave John,

Signifies means to symbolize. In other words, not to be taken literally.

::announcment::

: HopeinChrist480  Sun May 15, 2011 - 21:06:21
Please explain to me how its possible that the second death goes on and on without end? This is of course your definition of eternal, which is flawed by the way. The Scriptures clearly state that death will be NO MORE. If there's no more death there can only be life. This is precisely what this verse tells us.

It means no more dying---no more people entering death---but death is a permanent, eternal condition. People's spirits are immortal, and unbelievers will exist forever in that place eternally separated from The Kingdom of God.

Revelation 22:15
Outside the city are the dogs—the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idol worshipers, and all who love to live a lie.

Unveiling 21:4

4 And He will be brushing away every tear from their eyes. And death will be no more, nor mourning, nor clamor, nor misery; they will be no more, for the former things passed away."

Please answer another question. Do you take the Unveiling as literal? It is not. The following verse proves it.

Chapter 1
1 The Unveiling of Jesus Christ, which God gives to Him, to show to His slaves what must occur swiftly; and He signifies it, dispatching through His messenger to His slave John,

Signifies means to symbolize. In other words, not to be taken literally.

You need a more relative Bible translation! 'Signified' means that it was completely authorized by God through the angel.

Revelation 1:1
This is a revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants the events that must soon take place. He sent an angel to present this revelation to his servant John,



Revelation 7:17
For the Lamb at the center of the throne
  will be their shepherd;
'he will lead them to springs of living water.'
  'And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.'"

Yes, this will be a gloriously literal event---to occur among only those who are the people of God through Jesus Christ.

: Lively Stone  Sun May 15, 2011 - 23:15:30

: HopeinChrist480  Sun May 15, 2011 - 21:06:21
Please explain to me how its possible that the second death goes on and on without end? This is of course your definition of eternal, which is flawed by the way. The Scriptures clearly state that death will be NO MORE. If there's no more death there can only be life. This is precisely what this verse tells us.

It means no more dying---no more people entering death---but death is a permanent, eternal condition. People's spirits are immortal, and unbelievers will exist forever in that place eternally separated from The Kingdom of God.

Revelation 22:15
Outside the city are the dogs—the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idol worshipers, and all who love to live a lie.

Unveiling 21:4

4 And He will be brushing away every tear from their eyes. And death will be no more, nor mourning, nor clamor, nor misery; they will be no more, for the former things passed away."

Please answer another question. Do you take the Unveiling as literal? It is not. The following verse proves it.

Chapter 1
1 The Unveiling of Jesus Christ, which God gives to Him, to show to His slaves what must occur swiftly; and He signifies it, dispatching through His messenger to His slave John,

Signifies means to symbolize. In other words, not to be taken literally.

You need a more relative Bible translation! 'Signified' means that it was completely authorized by God through the angel.


Revelation 1:1
This is a revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants the events that must soon take place. He sent an angel to present this revelation to his servant John,

You put your own word 'present' into the verse. Changing Scripture is dangerous. Do not take away from the Word of God. Repent of this.

Unveiling 22:19

19 And if ever anyone should be eliminating from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God shall be eliminating his part from the log of life, and out of the holy city, that is written in this scroll.

Revelation 7:17
For the Lamb at the center of the throne
  will be their shepherd;
'he will lead them to springs of living water.'
  'And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.'"

Yes, this will be a gloriously literal event---to occur among only those who are the people of God through Jesus Christ.

If death were to exist alongside God without end, then death has partially defeated God. You are saying that death has partially defeated God. This was not, is not, and will never be the case.

You say that signifies means 'authorized'. Your definiton is completely untrue.  Its common knowledge that signifies means symbolizes. Go to dictionarydotcom and type in symbolizes and see what you get. This is what you get:

sym·bol·ize
   [sim-buh-lahyz] Show IPA verb, -ized, -iz·ing.
–verb (used with object)
1.
to be a symbol  of; stand for or represent in the manner of a symbol.
2.
to represent by a symbol  or symbols.
3.
to regard or treat as symbolic.
–verb (used without object)
4.
to use symbols.
Also, especially British , sy

You put your own word 'present' into the verse. Changing Scripture is dangerous. Do not take away from the Word of God. Repent of this.

Unveiling 22:19 (Concordant Literal)

19 And if ever anyone should be eliminating from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God shall be eliminating his part from the log of life, and out of the holy city, that is written in this scroll.

I suppose you also believe that there's going to be a literal wild beast ascending out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on its horns ten diadems, and on its heads blasphemous names? These things are symbolic. Please see this.

Unveiling 13:1 (Concordant Literal)

1 And it was standing on the sand of the sea. And I perceived a wild beast ascending out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on its horns ten diadems, and on its heads blasphemous names.

::frustrated::

: HopeinChrist480  Mon May 16, 2011 - 09:05:16

: Lively Stone  Sun May 15, 2011 - 23:15:30

: HopeinChrist480  Sun May 15, 2011 - 21:06:21
Please explain to me how its possible that the second death goes on and on without end? This is of course your definition of eternal, which is flawed by the way. The Scriptures clearly state that death will be NO MORE. If there's no more death there can only be life. This is precisely what this verse tells us.

It means no more dying---no more people entering death---but death is a permanent, eternal condition. People's spirits are immortal, and unbelievers will exist forever in that place eternally separated from The Kingdom of God.

Revelation 22:15
Outside the city are the dogs—the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idol worshipers, and all who love to live a lie.

Unveiling 21:4

4 And He will be brushing away every tear from their eyes. And death will be no more, nor mourning, nor clamor, nor misery; they will be no more, for the former things passed away."

Please answer another question. Do you take the Unveiling as literal? It is not. The following verse proves it.

Chapter 1
1 The Unveiling of Jesus Christ, which God gives to Him, to show to His slaves what must occur swiftly; and He signifies it, dispatching through His messenger to His slave John,

Signifies means to symbolize. In other words, not to be taken literally.

You need a more relative Bible translation! 'Signified' means that it was completely authorized by God through the angel.


Revelation 1:1
This is a revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants the events that must soon take place. He sent an angel to present this revelation to his servant John,

You put your own word 'present' into the verse. Changing Scripture is dangerous. Do not take away from the Word of God. Repent of this.

Unveiling 22:19

19 And if ever anyone should be eliminating from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God shall be eliminating his part from the log of life, and out of the holy city, that is written in this scroll.

Revelation 7:17
For the Lamb at the center of the throne
  will be their shepherd;
'he will lead them to springs of living water.'
  'And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.'"

Yes, this will be a gloriously literal event---to occur among only those who are the people of God through Jesus Christ.

If death were to exist alongside God without end, then death has partially defeated God. You are saying that death has partially defeated God. This was not, is not, and will never be the case.

That is a very human understanding. God desires that we do NOT lean on our own understanding. God is Master of ALL, and He will dispose of death. He is never defeated, but is Lord over ALL.

You say that signifies means 'authorized'. Your definiton is completely untrue.  Its common knowledge that signifies means symbolizes. Go to dictionarydotcom and type in symbolizes and see what you get. This is what you get:

Nope. We do not parse the language of the Scriptures and lay it out to conform with our 21st century dictionaries! We lean on the discernment that Holy Spirit brings to us about what GOD SAYS!

You put your own word 'present' into the verse. Changing Scripture is dangerous. Do not take away from the Word of God. Repent of this.

It is you who is changing scripture. There is NO Bible version that reveals the concept that you are bringing here.

I suppose you also believe that there's going to be a literal wild beast ascending out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on its horns ten diadems, and on its heads blasphemous names? These things are symbolic. Please see this.

No. Not many people should be studying Revelation without the discerning gift. This is why there is so much ridiculousness in people's interpretations. this is why Universalism is becoming the religion of choice for the Biblically ignorant and spiritually bereft.

The Holy Scriptures have been twisted in meaning through many translations throughout the years. You look at translations through modern eyes and not the original which is why there's much confusion about. You have to go back to the past to understand this, back to Jesus' day and understand that the original Greek or Hebrew of the day is the Truth.The original Greek language back in the day of Jesus has this word to mean symbolize. If you look at the new modern day translations, they render it in the New International Version as 'made it known'. Can you begin to see how far from the Truth this is?

::nodding::

: HopeinChrist480  Mon May 16, 2011 - 14:06:40
The Holy Scriptures have been twisted in meaning through many translations throughout the years. You look at translations through modern eyes and not the original which is why there's much confusion about. You have to go back to the past to understand this, back to Jesus' day and understand that the original Greek or Hebrew of the day is the Truth.The original Greek language back in the day of Jesus has this word to mean symbolize. If you look at the new modern day translations, they render it in the New International Version as 'made it known'. Can you begin to see how far from the Truth this is?

::nodding::

All versions state that the meaning of the passage is that God has made known these things by the testimony of the angel, speaking with God's own authority. The word is the same as 'to publish', or 'to make known', or 'to state', or 'to disclose', or 'to indicate', or 'to proclaim'!

You narrow it down to one thing only and miss the mark, completely. Greek has much latitude with meanings, and we must use care to avoid pitfalls, and to fall into traps the enemy sets for us, choosing to believe what we want to, rather than what God wants us to.

God doesn't allow Scriptures to twist, but he does allow human minds to believe what they choose. We have the responsibility, f we are true to Christ, to inquire of Holy Spirit when we want to receive what He is speaking from the Scriptures.

I do that when I read the Word. I suggest you do the same, and wait upon the Holy Spirit for His answer.

SCRIPTURAL PROOFS THAT THE BIBLE TEACHES UNIVERSAL SALVATION

Scriptural proofs that the Bible teaches universal salvation. See

           BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson
           http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/universalism-is-not-in-the-bible.htm  ?

http://richardwaynegarganta.com/Understanding%20Universal%20Salvation%20Part%20One.htm 

http://www.godsplanforall.com/7foundationalbiblicaltruths

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/InFavorCh20.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ScripturalProofs.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Bible-Proofs-modern.html

http://haroldlovelace.com/lovelacelist.php

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/univ3.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/fewsaved.htm

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/Hell_is_Leaving_the_Bible_Forever.html

Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/GatesOfHell.html

Also see four scriptural expositions expounding Universal Reconciliation at

http://concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/doubts.html

http://concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/1cor15.html

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/index.html

http://gtft.org/Library/condon/QuestionsWithoutAnswers.htm

Regarding the most common argument that the same word for "punishment" is also used for "life" see the following:

http://www.savior-of-all.com/aionian.html

All three of these articles should be studied with care, especially the third one.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon1.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon2.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon3.html

also see

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/aion.html
http://concordant.org/version/tranprin.html
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm

A little test about the word "ALL" that's found in Scripture.

If Truth is changed to not be all inclusive, when the context renders that it should be it then becomes error.

Reconsider the following Scriptures, without using any preconceived thoughts or forced interpretation upon them. This may be more difficult to do than first realized, because we all resort to an immediate interpretation of something based on our past understandings of the verse.

The darkest doctrine ever devised by men was that of an "eternal suffering" for the billions of souls that die lost without Christ.

http://www.godfire.net/eby/circularity.html

Like wolves among the sheep, carnally-minded men within the church system found it very effective to use the fear of an unending hell to control the masses that enter their religion.

Unfortunately this doctrine has remained at large in Christianity as a whole.

The Lord Jesus said, "When I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men to myself." - John 12:32
LOOK AT THE VERSES WITH THE WORD ALL

Savior of all, especially believers (1 Tim 4:9-11)
(see why "especially" is inclusive, and cannot mean "only")
http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew7/D7-EspeciallyThoseThatBelieve.html

God wills that all mankind be saved (1 Tim 2:4)

Operating all in accord with counsel of His will (Eph 1:11)

In Adam all dying; in Christ shall all be vivified (1 Cor 15:21-23)

It says "in Christ shall all," not "all who are in Christ."

One offense for all mankind for condemnation... (Rom 5:18-19)

Lamb of God taking away sin of the world (John 1:29)

Correspondent ransom for all (1 Tim 2:6)

Every knee bowing in the Name of Jesus (Phil 2:9; Is 45:23)
"in

While the Bible shows us that the offer of reconciliation is universal---for all---it does not teach that salvation is given to all.

Those who trust in Universalism are blinded by wishful thinking, and plagued by immature understanding. Only milk is on tap for them.

Everyone will choose to believe whatever they are convinced is the truth about what the Bible teaches.

I'm just so glad that I learned about the following information because it enabled me to
recover from a twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78).
I'm 72 years old now.

People who can love an "eternal torment

The only people who have the absolute assurance of Jesus Christ are those who put their trust in Him. Those who don't know Christ have the absolute assurance of damnation by God Himself.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.

Matthew 7:14
But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it.

: Lively Stone  Tue Aug 23, 2011 - 11:56:24
The only people who have the absolute assurance of Jesus Christ are those who put their trust in Him. Those who don't know Christ have the absolute assurance of damnation by God Himself.

DAMNATION
Etymology of the Word "Damn"
http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com/HellEncyclopedia/WordDamn.htm

author=Lively Stone link=topic=39838.msg1054613436#msg1054613436 date=1314118584]
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.

Sooner or later everyone will receive that life because God wills that all mankind be saved

God will have (desires if you like) all men to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4)
It is God's "pleasure

It is God's desire that all men be saved, but it is not a reality. God knows it, so why don't you? God doesn't get what He wants. Why? Because He has respect for His creation that He instilled a free will into.

: Lively Stone  Tue Aug 23, 2011 - 15:41:41
It is God's desire that all men be saved, but it is not a reality. God knows it, so why don't you? God doesn't get what He wants. Why? Because He has respect for His creation that He instilled a free will into.

It is because God has respect for His creation that He will not allow any of them to choose themselves into an inescapable state of everlasting suffering.

THE FALLACY OF "FREE" WILL
http://www.godfire.net/eby/freeagent.htm

: rodgertutt  Tue Aug 23, 2011 - 16:42:37

: Lively Stone  Tue Aug 23, 2011 - 15:41:41
It is God's desire that all men be saved, but it is not a reality. God knows it, so why don't you? God doesn't get what He wants. Why? Because He has respect for His creation that He instilled a free will into.

It is because God has respect for His creation that He will not allow any of them to choose themselves into an inescapable state of everlasting suffering.

THE FALLACY OF "FREE" WILL
http://www.godfire.net/eby/freeagent.htm

That is a completely false belief, born out of a lack of understanding of both the word of God and the person of God.

God certainly is allowing people to decide against Him every day. They die and their destiny is set for the fire of hell, forever. It breaks His heart, but His justice demands it.

Your Universalism has perpetuated blindness in those who indulge themselves in it, and create perpetually starving people due to the meager diet of truth.

"There can be no such thing as—"Free-will!"
This is a quote from the conclusion of
THE BONDAGE OF THE WILL – Martin Luther
http://www.truecovenanter.com/truelutheran/luther_bow.html

Until God lays hold on us by His sovereign grace and causes Jesus to be "choice" in our heart, everyone will remain in the condition of Romans 3:10-18.

But sooner or later, God is going to save everyone from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will.

THE SCHOLARS CORNER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Joshua 24:15
But if you refuse to serve the Lord, then choose today whom you will serve. Would you prefer the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates? Or will it be the gods of the Amorites in whose land you now live? But as for me and my family, we will serve the Lord.

Sooner or later everyone is going to serve and worship the Lord.

"WHO SHALL EVENTUALLY WORSHIP GOD?
Every creature Rev. 5:13
All flesh Isa. 66:23
All the ends of the world Psa. 22:27
All the kindreds of the nations Psa. 67:7
All the isles of the heathen Zep. 2:11
All the nations whom Thou hast made Psa. 86:9; Rev. 15:4
All the earth Psa. 66:4

Two people come to mind for me that imho started this debate centuries ago.

Origen wondered if it was possible all could be eventually be saved or reconciled, and Augustine wondered if every thing wasn't predestined. From those two very opposite thoughts, Universalism and Calvinism, and every thing in between we end up with 25,000 denominations and still counting!   ::preachit::

: rodgertutt  Tue Aug 23, 2011 - 17:17:07
Sooner or later everyone is going to serve and worship the Lord.

"WHO SHALL EVENTUALLY WORSHIP GOD?
Every creature Rev. 5:13
All flesh Isa. 66:23
All the ends of the world Psa. 22:27
All the kindreds of the nations Psa. 67:7
All the isles of the heathen Zep. 2:11
All the nations whom Thou hast made Psa. 86:9; Rev. 15:4
All the earth Psa. 66:4

Every knee will bow yes, but that doesn't mean everyone will be saved - they wont, the bible is crystal clear on this.

Satan WILL be thrown into the lake of fire forever, along with those who rejected Christ.

Any other teaching is straight from the pit of hell.

I suggest that you actually read these verses.
They say that all shall worship, not just "bow."

"WHO SHALL EVENTUALLY WORSHIP GOD?
Every creature Rev. 5:13
All flesh Isa. 66:23
All the ends of the world Psa. 22:27
All the kindreds of the nations Psa. 67:7
All the isles of the heathen Zep. 2:11
All the nations whom Thou hast made Psa. 86:9; Rev. 15:4
All the earth Psa. 66:4

: rodgertutt  Fri Dec 02, 2011 - 01:43:50
I suggest that you actually read these verses.
They say that all shall worship, not just "bow."

"WHO SHALL EVENTUALLY WORSHIP GOD?
Every creature Rev. 5:13
All flesh Isa. 66:23
All the ends of the world Psa. 22:27
All the kindreds of the nations Psa. 67:7
All the isles of the heathen Zep. 2:11
All the nations whom Thou hast made Psa. 86:9; Rev. 15:4
All the earth Psa. 66:4

Worshipping God won't save them.

God wants and desires all to be saved, but He's given mankind freewill and not all, in fact Jesus said most will not be saved.

: Sinead  Sun Dec 04, 2011 - 15:33:12
God wants and desires all to be saved, but He's given mankind freewill and not all, in fact Jesus said most will not be saved.

cannot be saved from destruction in this age of lies. But God can restore all things to himself even those things that were led into destruction.

He has eternity to restore lost souls- A long time.

His mercy endureth forever.

In the fullness of time, every knee shall confess, the Jesus is lord, so that God may be all in all.

: FireSword  Sun Dec 04, 2011 - 18:59:12

: Sinead  Sun Dec 04, 2011 - 15:33:12
God wants and desires all to be saved, but He's given mankind freewill and not all, in fact Jesus said most will not be saved.

cannot be saved from destruction in this age of lies. But God can restore all things to himself even those things that were led into destruction.

He has eternity to restore lost souls- A long time.

His mercy endureth forever.

In the fullness of time, every knee shall confess, the Jesus is lord, so that God may be all in all.

Firesword, the lost will remain in hell, they wont be restored.

Firesword, the lost will remain in hell, they wont be restored.

Everyone who is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.

Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."

See what other Greek scholars say about it too.
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html

Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46
Concordant Literal, Young's literal, Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham's Emphasized, Scarlett's, J.W. Hanson's New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth's (unedited), Clementson's,  The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger's Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell's translation (2010).

Regarding the meaning of aionios, many Greek scholars agree with John Wesley Hanson.
AIÓN – AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.shtml

SEE

THE SCHOLARS CORNER THE CENTER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM
Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

God wants and desires all to be saved, but He's given mankind freewill and not all, in fact Jesus said most will not be saved.

Jesus was talking in the present tense. Not all would start trusting Him as their Saviour during His earthly ministry.

But sooner or later God will have (wants if you like) all men to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4)
It is God's "pleasure

"And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire," (Matt. 18:8).

: Sinead  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 05:53:11
"And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire," (Matt. 18:8).

The fire is not eternal, it is aionios (age during)
Regarding the meaning of aionios, many Greek scholars agree with John Wesley Hanson.
AIÓN – AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.shtml

SEE

THE SCHOLARS CORNER THE CENTER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM
Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

For an explanation of what Christ meant by Matt. 18:8 click on the
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED link
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
then scroll down and click on
CAST INTO HELL-FIRE

Believe that if it makes you feel better, but nothing can change the truth.

: Sinead  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 06:17:41
Believe that if it makes you feel better, but nothing can change the truth.

Interested students will examine the evidence in the links and will decide for themselves if they think it is the "truth," or not.

The fire is not eternal, it is aionios (age during)
Regarding the meaning of aionios, many Greek scholars agree with John Wesley Hanson.
AIÓN – AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.shtml

SEE

THE SCHOLARS CORNER THE CENTER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM
Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

For an explanation of what Christ meant by Matt. 18:8 click on the
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED link
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
then scroll down and click on
CAST INTO HELL-FIRE

Quote

Firesword, the lost will remain in hell, they wont be restored.

Everyone who is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.

Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."

See what other Greek scholars say about it too.
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html

Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46
Concordant Literal, Young's literal, Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham's Emphasized, Scarlett's, J.W. Hanson's New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth's (unedited), Clementson's,  The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger's Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell's translation (2010).

Regarding the meaning of aionios, many Greek scholars agree with John Wesley Hanson.
AIÓN – AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.shtml

SEE

THE SCHOLARS CORNER THE CENTER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM
Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Quote

God wants and desires all to be saved, but He's given mankind freewill and not all, in fact Jesus said most will not be saved.

Jesus was talking in the present tense. Not all would start trusting Him as their Saviour during His earthly ministry.

But sooner or later God will have (wants if you like) all men to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4)
It is God's "pleasure

: St James  Wed Nov 23, 2011 - 02:07:02
Two people come to mind for me that imho started this debate centuries ago.

Origen wondered if it was possible all could be eventually be saved or reconciled, and Augustine wondered if every thing wasn't predestined. From those two very opposite thoughts, Universalism and Calvinism, and every thing in between we end up with 25,000 denominations and still counting!   ::preachit::

Yes, the belief that all man will be saved is a very early belief from the early church. Some of the earliest writings of the early church testify to universal salvation. It is fitting that in these times the doctrine is being restored.

Your response is too broadbrush. Look at the Evangelical Universalist cite. We do not believe that ALL are now saved. We believe that all must be saved by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone. It is easy to refute a straw man, which is all you have done. We do not deny that there will be punishment for sin, what we deny is ECT. That is Eternal Conscious Torture, which is taught by mainstream Christianity.

Biblicist

: biblicist  Mon Jun 11, 2012 - 07:17:24
Your response is too broadbrush. Look at the Evangelical Universalist cite. We do not believe that ALL are now saved. We believe that all must be saved by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone. It is easy to refute a straw man, which is all you have done. We do not deny that there will be punishment for sin, what we deny is ECT. That is Eternal Conscious Torture, which is taught by mainstream Christianity.

Biblicist

You're not saved by grace if you have to earn it through belief.  That would be salvation by way of reward... 

But the bible says we're saved by grace.  The mainstream church certainly believes we've saved by grace, but then somehow, grace is only extended to believers.  But wait, wouldn't that be reward?

The common understanding of faith makes it a work. It is not. Believing a thing is simply being CONVINCED of its truth. There is no WORK at all involved which is done by us. God WORKS to create faith in us. He does this for some during this life, but eventually HE will convince all of the truth.

: biblicist  Mon Jun 11, 2012 - 13:02:45
The common understanding of faith makes it a work. It is not. Believing a thing is simply being CONVINCED of its truth. There is no WORK at all involved which is done by us. God WORKS to create faith in us. He does this for some during this life, but eventually HE will convince all of the truth.

Work, not work... Whatever... If I have to do something specific in order to obtain grace it's no longer grace. It's being earned.

Faith in Gods grace.


Jesus could not do mighty works (Or maybe he means did not want to do works, because it would be wasting his time to do works to a bunch of unthankfull and unbelieving people) in some towns because of their unbelief.

: gospel  Fri Nov 20, 2009 - 17:45:48

Is Universalism Biblical?

From an article published by Reasoning from the Scriptures Ministry

        Universalism states that sooner or later all people will be saved. This position holds that the concepts of hell and punishment are inconsistent with a loving God.

        The older form of universalism, originating in the second century, taught that salvation would come after a temporary period of punishment. The newer form of universalism declares that all men are now saved, though all do not realize it. Therefore the job of the preacher and the missionary is to tell people they are already saved. Certain passages - John 12:32, Philippians 2:11, and 1 Timothy 2:4 - are typically twisted out of context in support of universalism.

        Such passages, interpreted properly, do not support universalism:

            * John 12:32 says that Christ's work on the cross makes possible the salvation of both Jews and Gentiles. Notice, however, that the Lord - in the same passage - warned of judgment of those who reject Christ (v. 48).
            * Philippians 2:10-11 assures us that someday all people will acknowledge that Jesus is Lord, but not necessarily as Savior. (Even those in hell will have to acknowledge Christ's Lordship.)
            * First Timothy 2:4 expresses God's desire that all be saved, but does not promise that all will be. This divine desire is only realized in those who exercise faith in Christ.

        The Scriptures consistently categorize people into one of two classes (saved/unsaved, also called believers/unbelievers), and portray the final destiny of every person as being one of two realities (heaven or hell).

            * In Matthew 13:30 Jesus in a parable said, "Let both [tares and wheat] grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn." Here unbelievers and believers are spoken of as tares and wheat. Two classes!
            * In Matthew 13:49 Jesus said, "This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous." Again, two classes are mentioned - unbelievers and believers spoken of as the wicked and the righteous.
            * In Matthew 25:32 Jesus said that following His second coming, "All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats." Here believers and unbelievers are differentiated by the terms "sheep" and "goats." The sheep will enter into God's kingdom (vs. 34) and inherit eternal life (vs. 46). The goats go into eternal punishment (vs. 46).
            * In Luke 16:26 we find Abraham in the afterlife telling the unsaved rich man: "Between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us." Hades apparently had two compartments: "paradise" for the saved, and "torments" for the unsaved - and these compartments were separated by a great chasm or gulf.

        Clearly, then, the Scriptures speak of two classes of people (the saved and the unsaved) and two possible destinies (heaven for the saved; hell for the unsaved). And each respective person ends up in one of these places based upon whether or not he or she placed saving faith in Christ during his or her time on earth (Acts 16:31).

The Scriptures clearly (and in several places) state that JESUS was sent to SAVE the WORLD...   Either He SUCCEEDED or He FAILED to do so -- 1 John 4:14 -- John 3:16-17 -- Luke 19:10 --  I for one KNOW that HE SUCCEEDED, simply based upon the Scriptural report which notes that WHATSOEVER the WORD is sent to do shall BE ACCOMPLISHED -- Isaiah 55:11


YHVH GOD cannot fail, neither can His PERFECT WORD fail.   If the WORLD is NOT saved... then JESUS failed to accomplish His mission as its SAVIOR.  That is not even worth any consideration whatsoever.


You are welcome to embrace such (fantastically traditional and false) thinking, ...I believe in a PERFECT Creator and a PERFECT Savior which NEVER FAIL...


PS... FYI... the vast majority of available English translations (of the ENTIRE Scriptures - Old and/or New Testaments) do not even mention the word "HELL" even ONCE!  (I can provide a list of these, if you need it). 


The fallacy of "HELL" (which immersed from the depravity of the DECEITFUL hearts of men -- Jer 17:9 -- who's DECEIT is ABOVE all things) is easily disproven via even the slightest scrutiny of it.  JESUS never once used the term "hell", and never once alluded to such a place either...   


JESUS' MISSION was to SAVE the WORLD -- 1 John 4:14 -- and was SENT NOT, to CONDEMN it -- John 3:16-17 -- and...


JESUS IS an UNCHANGING entity --Heb 13:8 - James 1:17 -- the perfect IMAGE of the Father YHVH which also, is an UNCHANGING entity -- Mal 3:4 

Therefore if both YHVH God and JESUS CHRIST are both UNCHANGING... and the mission designed by YHVH God (which He then gave to JESUS) was to SAVE THE WORLD and to NOT CONDEMN it...  then the SAVING of the WORLD and the NON-CONDEMNATION of it is indeed that which has taken place despite the collective efforts of men that pridefully cling to traditionally false teachings which FALSELY propose otherwise (and of course, curiously are NEVER found  ::frown::  including themselves as part of those who are "condemned"  ::crackup::).


One thing is certain, ...as JESUS Himself CLEARLY prophesied, ...The MANY which would (claim to be) come in the NAME of CHRIST -- Matt 7:22-23 -- and their "wonderful works"... will be that which shall find HIS REJECTION!


So foolishly perceiving that the ETERNAL SALVATION of the LIVING God, is theirs to decide... yeah right!  Can man get any more childishly arrogant?   ::shrug:: ...unfortunately, ...the answer is YESSSS!  ::frown::


We "decide" ETERNAL LIFE,  about as much as each of us "decided" all the parameters of this pathetically brief VAPOR of a LIFE that we each live here on Earth! -- James 4:14
 

Which of you "decided" anything concerning your life here on Earth?  ::lookaround::   ....such as WHEN  (era in which) you would be born...  WHO would be your PARENTS...  What GENDER you would be... WHAT LOCATION in the world your life would take place...  ::juggle::

Yeah... "you decided" all that (and more), didya?   Get real! 


If this VAPOR of a life was not decided by YOU, then I ask you,  ...how might you muster up the vast amount of audacity required that shall raise your VANITY to propose that ETERNAL LIFE is YOURS to decide?  ::giggle::


Think about it.  Then if you actually will devote some study to this (instead of just swallowing the baloney fed you),  ...you shall find that YHVH GOD is certainly NOT a FAILURE (in His desire and INTENT that the WORLD be SAVED)... nor did He SEND His SON to fail (to save it)...


PEACE...  ::reading:: ...willieH

SO willie you deny the existence of satan and punishment and hell.  So presumably you think that everyone will be saved and be in heaven and raptured when that time comes? If so who are the people left behind when the rapture occurs? Where do the people who God rejects at the final judgement go? Where do those go who have rejected His son?

I would be interested to know what church/group you go to hear this skewed teaching. OF course satan is very happy with those like you who deny his existence. I KNOW he is real, and I KNOW evil spirits are real, and not just because Gods tells us that.

http://www.biblestudyproject.org/Satan-and-Demons-messianic.htm#IV._SATAN (http://www.biblestudyproject.org/Satan-and-Demons-messianic.htm#IV._SATAN)

: chosenone  Tue Aug 13, 2013 - 19:36:01SO willie you deny the existence of satan and punishment and hell.

HELL is unbiblical.  "satan" by definition is a principality, not a being.  and punishment... well you WILL reap what you SOW.  SOW evil and lies, and you might well expect that just as GOD has placed UP to accomodate DOWN... and has placed OUTSIDE to establish INSIDE... that you shall REAP of THE FLESH... corruption.  And it wont be fun.  I spent many years of my life outside the realm of the Kingdom... and I sowed what I should not.  I have been fighting CANCER for 5 years... and it has not been fun.  Surgery, radiation, chemo, not fun.

So I advise you (you are welcome to choose not to listen), that if TRUTH comes your way... that no matter what you "believe", that you shall reconsider your beliefs where they are UNREASONABLE, for GOD's pathway to SALVATION... travels through the realm of REASON -- Isaiah 1:18   

: chosenone  Tue Aug 13, 2013 - 19:36:01So presumably you think that everyone will be saved and be in heaven and raptured when that time comes?

Another completely UNBIBLICAL teaching... the "rapture"... as well, you agree with invented teaching of... "going to Heaven"... which is not in there either.


This only displays that you have not diligently researched the Scriptures... Please name even ONE Scripture that says someone, let alone everyone, will "go to Heaven"...  and don't bother with the "Rapture", as that is strictly an invention of SINNERS, and this subject is not found anywhere in the Holy Bible.

: chosenone  Tue Aug 13, 2013 - 19:36:01If so who are the people left behind when the rapture occurs?

There is no Rapture, so it will not occur, and subsequently no one is "left behind".  Reading too many extra-Biblical books and watching fantasy movies - by men SEEKING MONEY -- instead of humbly digging in the FIELD for the TREASURES to be found within it -- Prov 25:2 -- Matt 13:44

: chosenone  Tue Aug 13, 2013 - 19:36:01Where do the people who God rejects at the final judgement go?

I'll answer with Scripture:

Isaiah 26:9 -- with my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea with my spirit within me will I seek thee..............  for WHEN THY JUDGMENTS are IN the EARTH, the INHABITANTS of the WORLD will... LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS.


No one is "going" anywhere... for the KINGDOM of GOD will be come down unto the Earth... and GOD will be ALL in ALL -- 1 Cor 15:28

: chosenone  Tue Aug 13, 2013 - 19:36:01Where do those go who have rejected His son?

ALL reject His son... As we are ALL concluded (by God) in UNBELIEF -- Rom 11:32 -- It is only the WORK of GOD, which AUTHORS and FINISHES the FAITH that delivers any and everyone -- Heb 12:2 -- and NO MAN can "come" to obtain that FAITH, except YHVH ...drag... that one to CHRIST -- John 6:44 - John 6:65

: chosenone  Tue Aug 13, 2013 - 19:36:01I would be interested to know what church/group you go to hear this skewed teaching.

More wreckless (and for all intent and purpose), meaningless commentary.  Why are you afraid of using the WORD of GOD, chosenone?  You seem to be unfamiliar with it, are you?   ::shrug::


Let us discuss a teaching (you can pick one, doesn't matter to me) which you either oppose or believe, and we shall see which of the 2 of us is truly familiar with the WORDS of YHVH God.  ::reading::   Wanna talk about HELL?  satan?  Free will?  Spiritual Israel?  The trinity?  Change of the Sabbath?  Easter?  Fallen Angels?  Pick one, let's see what you know, and which of the two of us is actually basing his belief on the WORD, and which is NOT.


As far as my "church history" I spent the very early part of my life (4-10 years old) attending my moms church - the Episcopal church, ...then when YHVH called me in 1976, ...I spent 5 years in the 7th Day Adventist church, and later, approximately 20 years in the Salvation Army church.  NONE of what I have come to know is found in the teachings of either of those churches (nor in the Episcopal church of my childhood)


As far as "skewed teaching"... a teaching is "skewed" (such as the teachings of Hell, cults, and rapture) only if it is not FOUNDED in the WORD. 


I am well able to found ALL that I presently KNOW to be the TRUTH, with both REASON and the WORD of God.   Thus far, you have named several things I which you BELIEVE, that are not at all mentioned in the WORD of GOD even ONCE...  When are you going to start using SCRIPTURE, chosenone?  Or is that not part of your belief system?

: chosenone  Tue Aug 13, 2013 - 19:36:01OF course satan is very happy with those like you who deny his existence. I KNOW he is real, and I KNOW evil spirits are real, and not just because Gods tells us that.

Actually that is quite assuming of you, and completely inaccurate.   I do/did not deny that "satan" exists.  "satan" indeed exists as a principality, which is the adversity/adversary of the FLESH of man, which beckons him to fulfill its lusts --


James 1:14 -- EVERY MAN is tempted [this includes Eve in the garden] when he [she] is DRAWN AWAY of HIS OWN LUST, and enticed.


Paul spoke of it, have you ever read it, chosenone?


Rom 7:22-23 -- for I delight in the law of GOD after the INWARD man... but I see another LAW ...IN ...MY ...MEMBERS, ...WARRING against the LAW of my mind, and BRINGING ME into the CAPTIVITY of the law of SIN, ...which is ...IN ...MY ...MEMBERS.


There is no one to blame for your sins but YOU.  Which is why you REAP what you SOW! -- Gal 6:8


I most heartily deny that "satan" is a being.  To say that "satan" is a being is like saying LAUGHTER is a being, or FEAR is a being, or  CRYING is a being...  rofl


Found your claims "chosenone"!  Where in the WORD does "GOD tell us that 'satan' is REAL"?  (book/chapter/verse)... Where in the WORD does "GOD tell us (or you) that 'evil spirits' are beings"?


I  must warn you that I have been in diligent daily study of the WORD for over 35 years... and can found anything I might state about the WORD.
I do not need a 'church' or 'pastor' (which I am btw)... to tell me what to believe.   I search for my Creator in His WORD on a daily basis.

Here's a question forya chosenone ...   Let's see if you have the wherewithal to answer it.  ::lookaround::


The WORD says that -- Rom 5:20 -- that WHERE SIN abounded (in any number, degree, type, etc),  GRACE did MUCH MORE abound.  MUCH more, ...not barely more, or ...a little more or even  ...a lot more... but MUCH more!  What say you, chosenone?   What SIN do you know of that abounds in a way in any circumstance that is GREATER than GRACE?


And if GRACE is greater in EVERY case of SIN (which it is, because the WORD says that it is)... this is what happens, chosenone -- John 1:29 -- Behold the Lamb of God that TAKETH AWAY the SIN of the WORLD.

: chosenone  Tue Aug 13, 2013 - 19:36:01http://www.biblestudyproject.org/Satan-and-Demons-messianic.htm#IV._SATAN (http://www.biblestudyproject.org/Satan-and-Demons-messianic.htm#IV._SATAN)

Internet links are INVALID as proof.   Anyone can say anything.  I am not the least bit inclined to visit internet sites.  Use the WORD!


Establish yourself in the WORD, where your "beliefs" are concerned... and then you will be SAYING something... for it is GOD's WORD that is speaking, not you.  That is WHY I lay down a Scriptural foundation for all that I say.


So far you have founded NONE of your beliefs, but have provided an internet link.   And you will not be able to found them, for they are not discussed in the WORD of YHVH.  It takes altering ADDITIONS and SUBTRACTIONS, such as HELL, RAPTURE, CULT, etc... in order to establish what you presently believe.  You have (albeit sincerely) adopted what has been fed you by others... be they theologians, pastors, books, movies etc ...


At least to this point, you have not utilized what is STATED in the WORD of YHVH... maybe its high time, you invested yourself in study.


PEACE...  ::reading::  ...willieH

The link I posted uses the word 100%. WHy are you afraid to read it? Your beliefs are entirely unbiblical. You are in deception. I have been a believer for 40 years now, and I know what I believe. I believe the word. Thank God.

Greetings Willie,

I must confess that I have not had time to go back and read this whole thread and maybe I should before asking some questions, but for time sake, which I have very little of at the moment, I will ask some questions and ask you to answer them, so that I would be better informed as to what exactly you believe.

Question #1~Can you explain in a few words your position on "universalism" .

#2~ What do you believe when the scriptures said these words: "Shall not perish? What does perish mean to you, as you understand the scriptures uses of that word, and it is used more than once.

#3~You are part of the Ministry of Reconciliation, I am not fully knowledgeable, or really should say, know very little about it, can you explain some of it to me in  a few words? 

#4~I see where you reject the devil being a created spirit, please explain you yourself in a few words why you believe that~in light of such scriptures as Matthew 4:1-11~specially verse 6 where it said that the devil "saith unto him".   Also, Ephesian 2:2; James 4:7; 1 Chronicles 21:1; Job 1; etc.

I have more but this is a starter.

RB

: Red Baker  Wed Aug 14, 2013 - 06:09:20
Greetings Willie,

I must confess that I have not had time to go back and read this whole thread and maybe I should before asking some questions, but for time sake, which I have very little of at the moment, I will ask some questions and ask you to answer them, so that I would be better informed as to what exactly you believe.

Hi Red...  ::smile::


Actually, I really take a different approach to the WORD of God then do most.  I always seek learning new revelation when I study.  I also seek CORRECTION from the Scriptures.  I do NOT study with a "set in stone" heart that is unwilling to change, or gain enlightenment.  Most religious people especially Christians, will use their philosophy of the WORD, as if it is the PERFECT one, and thereby utilize that foolish, imperfect, and HARDENED mindset to create the separations of the church that we see today.  Reading the SPIRITUAL language and interpreting it with LITERAL observations and conclusions, never gaining true spiritual insight.  Not very unlike the common Atheist might proceed.


In my early beginnings non unlike most other converts, I became a consistent church-goer, quietly accepting what the church taught in their sincerity.  One Sunday in a sermon, the pastor began with -- Isaiah 1:18 -- which notes that GOD invites us to REASON with Him... and during that process, our SINS which were Scarlet (blood red), would become white as snow.   This was the pivotal point in my Christian walk.  As this verse not only notes that we are capable of REASON, but the Divine insists upon it for truthful valid understanding to be conveyed.


God spoke loudly to me in that day... and that voice has never left me since.  REASON must be incorporated within the CORRECT observations of His WORD.  If REASON is not present in your understanding of GOD... then your "understanding" is MISUNDERSTANDING.  Which is WHY it is easy to debunk beliefs which Christianity (in-general) embraces... as most of them are UNREASONABLE.
 

That the vast majority of Christian beliefs (in-general) not only do NOT RHYME with REASON nor do they coincide with the mission of JESUS CHRIST to SAVE the WORLD, but at the same time, are very self oriented and self-centered and motivated, has caused me to question EVERY one of them. 


In fact... I am just about done with the writing of a book that addresses many of these in general Christian beliefs... and shows with the WORD and with REASON (logical progression) that they are NOT AT ALL based in Holy Scriptures.


The question one must ask concerning the proposal of any given "Biblical" belief of any given person or church, is ... Does the term ENTITLING this belief even appear in Scripture?  If not, then in its very TITLE, it is an OBVIOUS addition to the WORD as it has not been spoken by GOD via HIS own WORDS, unto you.  It has been proposed with and by, the words of MAN.


From that point, the examination begins... and whatever a given belief proposes, if found OUT OF HARMONY with REASON... or maintains the inclusion of extra-Biblical SUPPOSITIONS (not stated in the WORD) to what is actually stated by the WORD of GOD, ...just means that I shall REJECT it on the basis of the ABSENCE of those prerequisites.

: Red Baker  Wed Aug 14, 2013 - 06:09:20Question #1~Can you explain in a few words your position on "universalism" .

First... "Universalism" is a term given by man.  I am NOT a "universalist". 


I am a proponent and Divinely called 13 year minister of the MINISTRY of RECONCILIATION which IS founded in Scripture, and which notes that the TRESPASSES of MEN are no longer held against them -- 2 Cor 5:19 -- those that choose to IGNORE this Scripture, and propose opposition to it... are they which are MANY -- Matt 7:22-23 -- which shall find REJECTION from the Savior, of their supposed "wonderful works" which they, in SELF ADORNMENT, pridefully bring before the Savior. 


Much as was CAINS offering was rejected -- Gen 4:5 -- and ABEL had done as GOD's WORDS requested of him... so do I endeavor to do as did Abel. 


Everyone must make his/her own choice in this matter.  The TRUTH is that GOD has declared ALL things to occur as they do -- Isaiah 46:10 -- so even our choices are but the manifestation of HIS DECLARATION of us. 


ALL works done under the Sun are vanity (being manifest in the flesh of sin) -- Ecc 1:14 -- so NO DOINGS of the FLESH, shall carry honor, as they are considered by the doers of them, to be their own - adorning themselves,  ...rather than the setting forth of the GLORY of the FOREKNOWLEDGE of YHVH God... by proclaiming that HE has decided how each event shall come forth within HIS WORKING of ALL THINGS -- Eph 1:11


Until each man has within himself, is COMPLETELY given over himself... the VANITY will continue unto its end.  As long as men, amidst their vanity think that THEY generate that which comes forth within the Creation of YHVH... they each shall ALL fail amidst that vanity.



Second... it is Christianity which has given the observation of the Salvation of ALL men... the title of "universalism".   This is purposed deceit, which seeks to belittle a teaching that is actually stated in the WORD -- 1 Tim 2:3-6 -- and indeed is the proclamation of the instruction given by JESUS CHRIST to preach the GOSPEL (euaggelizo = good news) of the success of His endeavor.   Perversion of that commission has occurred in modern Christianity, in favor of a presentation of FEAR (teaching of HELL or ANNHILATION = nonexistence after tremendous pain and sorrow), which is seen by most as a motivation to obey by deceived Christians... but is clearly in opposition of the actual DOINGS of LOVE, which CAST OUT FEAR -- 1 John 4:18 -- and certainly DO NOT ever in any way, promote FEAR, which would be hypocrisy.

: Red Baker  Wed Aug 14, 2013 - 06:09:20#2~ What do you believe when the scriptures said these words: "Shall not perish? What does perish mean to you, as you understand the scriptures uses of that word, and it is used more than once.

To state the meaning of a word IN GENERAL, and not specifically in its context, is speculation...  as the word ALL can be a specific group which is present, or can mean ALL that "are".  Since you have not designated a specific Scripture, I will pick one and explain the meaning within that particular verse's usage of the word "PERISH"... okay?  ::nodding::


2 Pet 3:9 -- the Lord is not slack concerning His promise as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to usward, NOT WILLING that ANY should PERISH [apollumi], but that ALL should come to REPENTENCE...


There are several things to consider surrounding the word PERISH [#G622 - APOLLUMI] in this statement...  before examining these things... the word APOLLUMI is found mentioned in many places in the New Testament.  A particular portion of Scripture which is pertinent to this one (where APOLLUMI is translated "LOST") are found in -- Luke 15:4-32 -- which are the parables of the LOST SHEEP ...the LOST COIN... and the LOST SON.   


The word APOLLUMI via definition specifically means UTTERLY or FULLY DESTROYED.


The LOST (utterly destroyed) SHEEP, though considered "utterly destroyed" by the Shepherd... was RECOVERED... and was never DEAD... just NOT where he belonged... which was WITH His Shepherd... It is also significant to note that the SHEPHERD went and FOUND the SHEEP, the SHEEP did not find his way back from being "utterly destroyed".


The LOST (utterly destroyed) COIN, though considered "utterly destroyed" by its owner (woman), was never actually DESTROYED... again, just NOT where it belonged... which was WITH its Owner... Again it is also significant to note that the OWNER of the COIN searched and FOUND (recovered) the COIN... the COIN did not find its way back from being "utterly destroyed"


The LOST (utterly destroyed) SON, though considered "utterly destroyed" by His Father, was actually alive but in a destructive environment... again, just not where he belonged... which was WITH His Father...  Again, like the sheep and the coin... it was the recall of the great LOVE of the FATHER that searched out the heart of the Son (recovering him), and IN a state of SELF devalued HUMILITY, brought him back from being "utterly destroyed"


The usage of APOLLUMI in -- 2 Pet 3:9 -- is prefaced by the fact that GOD is NOT WILLING that any "PERISH" (are "utterly destroyed").


The word translated "NOT WILLING" in this text is [#G1014 -- BOULEMA] which means by definition, INTENT, RESOLVE, PURPOSE -- (look it up in your Strongs, bro!)
   

That theologians purposely IGNORE this stated INTENT of GOD within His own WORDS,  ...which PERFECTLY coincides with Him SENDING CHRIST to SAVE the WORLD, ...is just verification and witness against their own self-centered, unyielding and vain attempt to embrace their self adorning TRADITION, in the stead of seeking the TRUTH within the Scriptures -- Mark 7:7-9 -- which will cost them dearly in the end -- Matt 7:22-23 -- Matt 24:5


As a called minister of the Ministry of Reconciliation, it does not matter to me that most will not HEAR.   What matters to me, is that I am carrying out what my Father YHVH God has called me to do, remaining faithful to that calling.  It is He which decides who shall hear and who shall not... so I do not worry over results.  I praise Him and move on.  Most of the time, I will be (as was CHRIST), rejected by the RELIGIOUS traditionalists that are deafened by their own vanity... my work only gives me joy... without regret.

: Red Baker  Wed Aug 14, 2013 - 06:09:20#3~You are part of the Ministry of Reconciliation, I am not fully knowledgeable, or really should say, know very little about it, can you explain some of it to me in  a few words?

Well my friend... in short, The MINISTRY of RECONCILATION -- 2 Cor 5:19 -- Col 1:20 -- is the GOSPEL.  News that is SO GOOD... that it cannot be BETTER.  The Angel of God announced the birth of CHRIST in this manner:


Luke 2:9-11 -- and lo, the ANGEL of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them and they were SORE AFRAID! ...And the ANGEL said unto them ...FEAR NOT... for behold, I bring you GOOD TIDINGS [#G2097 - EUAGGELIZO = GOSPEL] of GREAT JOY which shall be to ...ALL PEOPLE... for unto you is born this day in the city of David, a Savior which is CHRIST the Lord.


The very FIRST thing the ANGEL of GOD did was to DISPEL ...FEAR!  Then He announced the GOSPEL = GOOD TIDINGS... which "good tidings" would be for ...ALL PEOPLE.


Any true minister of the GOSPEL [#G2097 - EUAGGELIZO = Good news/good tidings] will do as did the ANGEL of the LORD... first, ...dispel FEAR... and then give the GOOD NEWS to ALL PEOPLE... for it is ALL for which CHRIST died --1 Tim 2:6

: Red Baker  Wed Aug 14, 2013 - 06:09:20#4~I see where you reject the devil being a created spirit, please explain you yourself in a few words why you believe that~in light of such scriptures as Matthew 4:1-11~specially verse 6 where it said that the devil "saith unto him".

Dear Red... sorry there might be more words than you would like.  If you don't have time to read them, copy the answer and read it when you do have time.


When evaluating a Scripture, you must take into consideration applicable verses which explain our questions...  I hope this shall help


Heb 4:15 -- for we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities, but was IN ALL POINTS... tempted ...AS... WE ARE, yet without SIN.


This verse says that JESUS was TEMPTED ...AS... we are.  Be honest, ...has some "red guy with a pitchfork, or a "talking snake", or a "phony angel" come to you each time you have been tempted in your life, Red?  If not, how can the temptation of JESUS be ...AS... are yours?


ADVERSITY has a voice, even though it is not a LIVING thing.  You are hungry... you have no money... you are in the store... and a BIN FULL of candies call out to you - "hey, the store wont miss a couple of these small pieces, why don't you take a few"? 


Or you are in a bar having a beer after work and your wife awaits you at home... and a woman at the bar makes TEMPTING gestures toward you...  Is she some fallen angel which is actually IN the COSTUME of a woman?   Or is she just ADVERSITY giving you the opportunity to DO WRONG?


No actual being spoke to JESUS in His temptation, His FLESH did... James 1:14 says -- EVERY MAN [JESUS was a MAN -- 1 Tim 2:5] -- IS TEMPTED when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed  


JESUS' flesh was the very same as is ours... It WARRED against His spirit -- Rom 7:23 --  It called to Him ...AS YOURS calls to you or MINE calls to me!  Only difference is that JESUS did not respond to that "calling" as you and I have during our lives, in every instance of that calling, ...He rejected it - in favor of the WORD.  He met temptation with the WORD...


If you look at the "temptation of CHRIST" (in the text you noted), that particular event was comprised of EACH the things of the WORLD -- listed in -- 1 John 2:16 -- (1) - the lust of the flesh... (2) - the lust of the eyes... and  (3) - the pride of life...


Being greatly weakened in the body and mind by the depletion of FOOD for 40 days...


JESUS was, very, VERY HUNGRY, ...so the ADVERSITY of His members called to Him, knowing that He had the power to do ANYTHING... to change the stones into BREAD (1) the LUST OF THE FLESH -- HE DECLINED -- Matt 4:4


JESUS was also weakened in mind from that fast, so the ADVERSITY of His members called unto Him and the POWER within Him (knowing that the ANGELS would spare Him injury) to CAST himself down...  (3) the PRIDE of LIFE -- HE DECLINED -- Matt 4:7


JESUS in weakened mental state from that fast, from the mountain He knew, able to SEE all things, that He could have power over all the KINGDOMS of the WORLD - NOW, ...so the ADVERSITY of His members, tempted Him via -- (2) the LUST OF THE EYES -- HE DECLINED -- Matt 4:10


ALL three of these can be seen taking place within the mind of EVE during her "original" temptation -- Gen 3:6 -- GOOD for food (lust of the flesh) -- PLEASANT to the sight (lust of the eyes) -- contained WISDOM (unknown information) even though GOD said she would DIE if she ate to gain that "wisdom" (pride of life)

: Red Baker  Wed Aug 14, 2013 - 06:09:20Also, Ephesian 2:2

That religion has convinced you that this "prince" is a fallen angel is not substanciated in this Scripture.  The word "satan" does not appear in this verse... for "satan" to have part in this verse requires a man to ADD that word to it.


The prince of the "power of the air"... is not some "fallen angel"... it is YOUR FLESH actively breathing, and as you BREATHE, you SIN.  You are alive via the BREATH of life, which is IN the AIR YOU breathe!  You are a PRINCE... a SON of God which YHVH Himself calls you "a god" -- Psalm 82:6

: Red Baker  Wed Aug 14, 2013 - 06:09:20James 4:7

When you RESIST each temptation, do you see a Halloween character running off into the sunset, Red?  rofl


Again, the word "satan" does not appear in this verse.  The religious must ADD it to the verse... which is a very big "no-no"! -- Deut 4:2 -- Rev 22:18 -- Prov 30:6

: Red Baker  Wed Aug 14, 2013 - 06:09:201 Chronicles 21:1

Well, at least the word "satan" is stated in this verse! 


ADVERSITY does not need to be a LIVING being to "stand up" and prompt you to do other than the command of YHVH...  Christianity gives this myth OMNIPRESENCE... believing "satan" to be with everyone all the time...  Wherever GOD is... that which is OPPOSITE Him in principle, IS.  GOD is everywhere... no other being has this characteristic.  This verse does not say that a BEING or ANGEL named "satan" stood up... now does it?

: Red Baker  Wed Aug 14, 2013 - 06:09:20Job 1

Thanks for suggesting this, this Scripture is one of my very favorites!  ::disco::  Of the 19 total mentions of "satan" in the entire OT... FOURTEEN of them are in this book!  Which means poor old "satan" only gets the stage on FIVE other occasions...  ::frown:: ...did he lose popularity?  Or is this OVERBLOWN MYTH just that... Christianity's little demented and distorted FEAR toy? ...  ::shrug::


I can tell you this brother Red... Scripture notes that NO one "counsels GOD" -- Rom 11:34 -- and definitely the suggestions of "satan" made in these passages, come with "counseling", as a potential outcome is suggested.


Btw... wherever the SONS of God are gathered together, ADVERSITY is definitely in the midst -- Job 1:6

Also... Isnt it interesting that "satan" -- Job 1:7 -- was "going to and fro, ...IN... the earth (man is of the dust)... and walking up and down ...IN... it?

Kinda goes along with Pauls notation of another "LAW" which is WARRING ...IN... his members -- Rom 7:23 -- doesn't it?


You will probably laugh,  rofl  but...


(1) I believe Job is a PARABOLIC writing that took place in the land of UZ (wonder)  ::applause:: ...it is most definitely not a historical event or report.


(2)  It is also my observation, that this whole writing is GOD "thinking over to Himself" the principality of ADVERSITY - Hey you do it, I do it, everyone does it... so are we so arrogant, that we shall vainly consider that we can do something (think to ourselves) that GOD cannot?  ::oldman::

: Red Baker  Wed Aug 14, 2013 - 06:09:20I have more but this is a starter.

RB

Before I go, ...Let me ask YOU a question Red...


Why does the word "satan" not at ALL, NOT EVEN ONCE, ...appear in the TORAH?  Not once does this word appear in the writings of MOSES... which are the foundational writings of the WORD of YHVH GOD.


Did God forget about this guy?  Not even ONE little mention of him to MOSES?  Don't know about you, but, P-U ...I smell the stink of a religious rat...  ::what?!?!:: ::unwell::


Hey brother Red... Hope I have conveyed my position to you for your further consideration.   ::watchingclock::  ::wave::



PEACE...  ::reading::  ...willieH

: chosenone  Wed Aug 14, 2013 - 03:23:29
The link I posted uses the word 100%. WHy are you afraid to read it? Your beliefs are entirely unbiblical. You are in deception. I have been a believer for 40 years now, and I know what I believe. I believe the word. Thank God.

I come as did my Savior.  Preaching postives and truth, and the RELIGIOUS will try their best to eliminate me, as they did my Savior, 20 centuries ago.

Okay... I guess in your own way, you are silently saying that you are going to avoid answering my questions (because you obviously have no answers to them), so I may as well live with that fact. 

I am not afraid of your internet link, I am in a discussion with YOU, not an internet link! 


Also, my days are precious (been battling cancer for 5 years), so I will not be distracted by any form of drudgery.   If you have a point, then MAKE it... if not, please know that I am NOT interested in you giving me homework assignments while in discussion with me so that I can be informed of your beliefs.  Don't be a parrot... Learn your beliefs...   


You should at the VERY LEAST, learn what you believe, and at the VERY LEAST, be able to express it.  At the most you should be learning NEW revelation... not sitting on square one of Spirituality.  GOD is INFINITE, and there is INFINITE learning of TRUTH that is available to the devoted and diligent seeker of it...


For those who must employ such a crutch as sending people to another internet site to read what they BELIEVE, I feel deeply sorry for such a present lack of dedication to GOD (no offense is intended, I really feel for you!). 


You should be able to easily express your spiritual life in your own words... or that life really doesn't exist in you.  I do not even need a Bible or Strongs concordance to express the essential Beliefs I hold, and the supportive locations of verifying Scriptures which establish those beliefs as BIBLICAL.


I know what I know, and have committed to memory the texts which support what I KNOW to be TRUTH.


You say my "beliefs" are UNBIBLICAL but fail to specify that which you condemn...  what "beliefs" you are speaking of?   Do you even know what I "believe"?


"KNOWING" the TRUTH is not the important thing.  The IMPORTANT thing is to BE KNOWN ...OF the TRUTH!  That I KNOW JESUS is not a biggie... but for HIM to KNOW ME... wow!  That's HUGE!


Of the MANY which - have/do/will - come in His name... He will say -- Matt 7:23 -- depart from Me, ...I... NEVER KNEW ...YOU!   


The ones that TURN away from TRUTH, are thereby NOT KNOWN of Him -- John 10:37 -- only HIS SHEEP does He KNOW.   His SHEEP shall hear HIS VOICE (not charlaton pastors and ministers, which are seeking money and personal reknown).   and whenever the TRUTH is spoken, ...His SHEEP follow it.   Another's voice will not fool them either.  Once you KNOW the TRUTH... you become part of its UNCHANGINGNESS.


Reading this post you have that opportunity.  Do you hear?  Will you Hear?  Or is playing the church game, too important to you? 


As far as the MINISTRY of RECONCILIATION which is the SALVATION of ALL men... the BIBLE speaks quite heartily and quite often on the subject of that TOTAL VICTORY -- Oh DEATH where is thy sting, O Grave where is thy VICTORY? -- 1 Cor 15:54


ALL shall be found ALIVE ...IN CHRIST... worded SPECIFICALLY in:

1 Cor 15:22 -- AS IN Adam ALL DIE... so ...IN CHRIST... shall ALL be made ALIVE! -- (same "ALL")

The DIVINE VICTORY of LIFE, ...over DEATH!  The RANSOM given for ALL is right in front of YOU this moment:

1 Tim 4:9-11 ---  SPEAKS of the SALVATION of ALL
1 Tim 2:3-6  ---  Also SPEAKS of His WILL to SAVE ALL / His RANSOM given for ALL to be TESTFIED in due time!
Rom 5:20 --- SAYS - that GRACE is greater than ANY and ALL SIN.
1 John 2:2  SAYS - that JESUS sacrifice is the PROPITIATION (substitution) for the SINS of the WHOLE WORLD
1 John 4:14 --- SAYS - that JESUS was SENT to be the SAVIOR of the WORLD... you think He FAILED?
John 1:29 --- SAYS - Behold the Lamb of GOD which TAKETH AWAY the SIN of the WORLD
John 12:32 -- SAYS - that if He be lifted up (crucified), He would draw ALL MEN unto Him

That is SEVEN Scriptures that heartily prove the SALVATION of ALL MEN, is IN the Bible...  which IS the GOSPEL!  The BEST NEWS possible is that GOD saves ALL MEN!


NOW its your turn - chosenone...

You have stated belief (1) - that YOU can decide who is a CULT, and that you are the decider of who is and is not saved. / (2) - in the Rapture / (3) - some are Going to Heaven / (4) -  some are Going to Hell 

PLEASE note even ONE Scripture which contains and/or defines the word CULT
PLEASE note even ONE Scripture which notes that YOU decide who is and who is NOT SAVED
PLEASE note even ONE Scripture which contains and/or defines the RAPTURE
PLEASE note even ONE Scripture which states that anyone shall "Go to Heaven"
PLEASE note even ONE Scripture which states that anyone shall "Go to Hell"


That is only 5 verses... piece a cake - eh?  I say that you cannot verify even ONE of these with the WORD of GOD.


I have shown that THE SALVATION of ALL MEN is totally BIBLICAL, and is the THEME of the entire Scriptures!  Complete Divine DELIVERANCE is the greatest story of ALL TIME!


I have also shown that nothing you have revealed (to this point) as a belief, is in the Bible at all.  Take the opportunity to change my friend!  JESUS is the PERFECT Savior!  Isn't that GOOD NEWS?


Though you shall likely turn down this invitation, ...I would be happy to debate you (or anyone else) concerning "Christian beliefs"... and will prove them to be FALSE, by incorporating REASON, with the WORD of YHVH...   which should make EVERYONE happy...   If someone showed me with the WORD, that I was blindly believing in mythology... I would immediately rejoice and be thankful for the rescue from that blinded situation!


FYI... I am in chemo therapy, so when treatment time comes, I may slow down for a bit... but I will endeavor to answer any question as best and as soon as I can.


PEACE...   ::reading::  ...willieH

: St James  Wed Nov 23, 2011 - 02:07:02
Two people come to mind for me that imho started this debate centuries ago.

Origen wondered if it was possible all could be eventually be saved or reconciled, and Augustine wondered if every thing wasn't predestined. From those two very opposite thoughts, Universalism and Calvinism, and every thing in between we end up with 25,000 denominations and still counting!   ::preachit::

I'll take Origen any day over one who NEVER learned to read Greek.

: yomteruah  Fri Aug 08, 2014 - 03:09:44

: St James  Wed Nov 23, 2011 - 02:07:02
Two people come to mind for me that imho started this debate centuries ago.

Origen wondered if it was possible all could be eventually be saved or reconciled, and Augustine wondered if every thing wasn't predestined. From those two very opposite thoughts, Universalism and Calvinism, and every thing in between we end up with 25,000 denominations and still counting!   ::preachit::

I'll take Origen any day over one who NEVER learned to read Greek.

I'll like Jesus did, take any child of God, male or female, bond or free, Greek or barbarian~if they are believers and they love and fear God above those who think that their wisdom enables them to know more than those who are unlearned, yet have strong faith in the scriptures~  Acts 4:13

: Red Baker  Fri Aug 08, 2014 - 04:50:30

: yomteruah  Fri Aug 08, 2014 - 03:09:44

: St James  Wed Nov 23, 2011 - 02:07:02
Two people come to mind for me that imho started this debate centuries ago.

Origen wondered if it was possible all could be eventually be saved or reconciled, and Augustine wondered if every thing wasn't predestined. From those two very opposite thoughts, Universalism and Calvinism, and every thing in between we end up with 25,000 denominations and still counting!   ::preachit::

I'll take Origen any day over one who NEVER learned to read Greek.

I'll like Jesus did, take any child of God, male or female, bond or free, Greek or barbarian~if they are believers and they love and fear God above those who think that their wisdom enables them to know more than those who are unlearned, yet have strong faith in the scriptures~  Acts 4:13

I'm not speaking of rejecting or accepting Augustine as a believer. Origen and Augustine are both "Church Fathers" What i am saying is i would give more weight to the interpretation of scripture (originally written in Greek) from the "Church Fathers" who's native tongues were Greek and not Latin, who at the time were relying on shoddy Latin translations.

: yomteruah  Fri Aug 08, 2014 - 11:23:55

: Red Baker  Fri Aug 08, 2014 - 04:50:30

: yomteruah  Fri Aug 08, 2014 - 03:09:44

: St James  Wed Nov 23, 2011 - 02:07:02
Two people come to mind for me that imho started this debate centuries ago.

Origen wondered if it was possible all could be eventually be saved or reconciled, and Augustine wondered if every thing wasn't predestined. From those two very opposite thoughts, Universalism and Calvinism, and every thing in between we end up with 25,000 denominations and still counting!   ::preachit::

I'll take Origen any day over one who NEVER learned to read Greek.

I'll like Jesus did, take any child of God, male or female, bond or free, Greek or barbarian~if they are believers and they love and fear God above those who think that their wisdom enables them to know more than those who are unlearned, yet have strong faith in the scriptures~  Acts 4:13

I'm not speaking of rejecting or accepting Augustine as a believer. Origen and Augustine are both "Church Fathers" What i am saying is i would give more weight to the interpretation of scripture (originally written in Greek) from the "Church Fathers" who's native tongues were Greek and not Latin, who at the time were relying on shoddy Latin translations.

Again, "church fathers" means little to me, except the apostles, if their teaching do not follow what I can read in my English bible~Galatians 1:8,9  Augustine I have the most respect for among them all, and no doubt was a godly and faithful teacher of the word of God.  I love his City of God on Revelation twenty.

Augustine was no Universalist~and it was he whom Luther and Calvin followed in much of their teachings. 

: yomteruah  Fri Aug 08, 2014 - 11:23:55

: Red Baker  Fri Aug 08, 2014 - 04:50:30

: yomteruah  Fri Aug 08, 2014 - 03:09:44

: St James  Wed Nov 23, 2011 - 02:07:02
Two people come to mind for me that imho started this debate centuries ago.

Origen wondered if it was possible all could be eventually be saved or reconciled, and Augustine wondered if every thing wasn't predestined. From those two very opposite thoughts, Universalism and Calvinism, and every thing in between we end up with 25,000 denominations and still counting!   ::preachit::

I'll take Origen any day over one who NEVER learned to read Greek.

I'll like Jesus did, take any child of God, male or female, bond or free, Greek or barbarian~if they are believers and they love and fear God above those who think that their wisdom enables them to know more than those who are unlearned, yet have strong faith in the scriptures~  Acts 4:13

I'm not speaking of rejecting or accepting Augustine as a believer. Origen and Augustine are both "Church Fathers" What i am saying is i would give more weight to the interpretation of scripture (originally written in Greek) from the "Church Fathers" who's native tongues were Greek and not Latin, who at the time were relying on shoddy Latin translations.

The Vulgate was no shoddy Latin translation.  It was done by an absolute master of Hebrew and Greek in St. Jerome, who had not only access to earlier transcripts than we do today but also a nearness to the culture, which is very important in Bible translation.

: Catholica  Fri Aug 08, 2014 - 14:59:45

: yomteruah  Fri Aug 08, 2014 - 11:23:55

: Red Baker  Fri Aug 08, 2014 - 04:50:30

: yomteruah  Fri Aug 08, 2014 - 03:09:44

: St James  Wed Nov 23, 2011 - 02:07:02
Two people come to mind for me that imho started this debate centuries ago.

Origen wondered if it was possible all could be eventually be saved or reconciled, and Augustine wondered if every thing wasn't predestined. From those two very opposite thoughts, Universalism and Calvinism, and every thing in between we end up with 25,000 denominations and still counting!   ::preachit::

I'll take Origen any day over one who NEVER learned to read Greek.

I'll like Jesus did, take any child of God, male or female, bond or free, Greek or barbarian~if they are believers and they love and fear God above those who think that their wisdom enables them to know more than those who are unlearned, yet have strong faith in the scriptures~  Acts 4:13

I'm not speaking of rejecting or accepting Augustine as a believer. Origen and Augustine are both "Church Fathers" What i am saying is i would give more weight to the interpretation of scripture (originally written in Greek) from the "Church Fathers" who's native tongues were Greek and not Latin, who at the time were relying on shoddy Latin translations.

The Vulgate was no shoddy Latin translation.  It was done by an absolute master of Hebrew and Greek in St. Jerome, who had not only access to earlier transcripts than we do today but also a nearness to the culture, which is very important in Bible translation.

Augustine didn't use the Vulgate. He used a collection of Latin writings of the scriptures called the Vetus Latina which pre dates the Vulgate in which much of the translating is "shoddy."

 

Such passages, interpreted properly, do not support universalism:

            * John 12:32 says that Christ's work on the cross makes possible the salvation of both Jews and Gentiles. Notice, however, that the Lord - in the same passage - warned of judgment of those who reject Christ (v. 48).

This is why literalism tangles the feet and and causes its users to fall flat.  One of the key tenets of literalism is, "if a verse makes plain sense, there's no need to look for any other sense."  Then the literalist performs all sorts of intellectual gymnastics breaking this  or some other literalist rule.  All you've done here is take one of the Bible's plain, clear univeralist verses and "modified" it with the popular eternal hell doctrine.

* Philippians 2:10-11 assures us that someday all people will acknowledge that Jesus is Lord, but not necessarily as Savior. (Even those in hell will have to acknowledge Christ's Lordship.)

Paul is quoting Isa 45:23.  NASB translates this as "... every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance."  To swear allegiance is to be on the "same side".

* First Timothy 2:4 expresses God's desire that all be saved, but does not promise that all will be. This divine desire is only realized in those who exercise faith in Christ.

This is half right.  The answer is metaphysical...God allows man's will to lead him where he wants to go in the TEMPORAL.  The nature of time is mutability, and God freely adapts to the changeableness He designed into spatiotemporal reality.  One way He does this is in allowing man to defy His will, but only in time.  In the ETERNAL realm, however, God's decrees are sovereign and immutable.  What He says goes in eternality: "So shall My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." (Isa 55:11)  God allows His desire that all be saved from His purifying wrath IN TIME to be resisted by the human will because in the end  His ETERNAL decrees--Jn 12:32, for example--are inviolable.

The Scriptures consistently categorize people into one of two classes (saved/unsaved, also called believers/unbelievers), and portray the final destiny of every person as being one of two realities (heaven or hell).

True, as long as you understand what "heaven" and "hell" actually are and don't make the mistake of forcing an eternal decree on the latter.  (The Bible is full of metaphors, which the organized church shuts out with its manmade literalism, and herein lie the deeper answers to questions we don't really want to know the answers to.)  If you use the temporal/eternal distinction noted above, you'll be able to interpret Paul in Rom 11 properly.  This book is full of both Paul's universalism and his two classes.  He goes to great pains to make the latter point in the being grafted into or cut off as a branch from the "wild olive tree" of Christ....then goes on to make the astonishing statement that make no mistake, the mystery of salvation is that all Israel will be saved (v. 26)  Traditionalists always inject tensions into this plain, literal truth Paul wrote in Rom 11, twisting his meaning to fit popular doctrine.  Truth demands freedom from logical tensions.  The way to interpret the apostle without tension is to apply the eternal/temporal distinction.  Do you see it, or are you afraid to think outside the box lest you find yourself shoved out the door, kicked out of the club?

: jiggyfly  Fri Nov 20, 2009 - 21:19:25
I Cor 3:15 If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire.

I Cor 5:4,5 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. [See I Peter 4:6!]

I Cor 13:8 Love never fails.


I Cor 15:22,28

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. But each in his own order... [Ed., This phrase is the real key to understanding God's purposes in relation to His time schedule.] "And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, that God may be all in all."

I Cor 15:54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory."


II Cor 5:14,15 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, that they should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

II Cor 5:18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ, and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was [Ed., and is] in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the nations by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you."


Eph 1:9,10 He make known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fulness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things upon the earth.

Eph 1:22,23 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fulness of Him who fills all in all.

Eph 3:8-11 To me [Paul]...this grace was given...to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God, who created all things; in order that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Eph 4:5,6 There is...one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

Eph 4:10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.

Phil 2:9-11 Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


Phil 3;21 ...who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

Col 1:19-22 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fulness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach.


Col 3:11 Christ is all, and in all.


I Tim 1:13 Even though I [Paul] was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor, yet I was shown mercy, because I acted ignorantly in unbelief.


I Tim 1:15 Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I [Paul] am foremost.

[Ed., Again, if Paul is the foremost sinner, then hasn't God's plan of redemption been accomplished to the foremost?]
I Tim 2:5,6 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to be borne at the proper time.


I Tim 4:10 It is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.


Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men.

Heb 1:2 In these last days He has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

Heb 2:8 For in subjecting all things to him [ie., man], He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him...But we do see Him who has been made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God He might taste death for every one.

Heb 9:26 But now once at the consummation He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

I Pet 2:12 Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may on account of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.

I Pet 3:18-20 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah...

I Pet 4:6 For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that even though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God. (see I Cor 5:5)

II Pet 3:8,9 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing [literally "not purposing", from the Greek: boulema, "predetermined purpose"] that any should perish but for all to come to repentance.


I John 4:14 And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

Rev 5:13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."

Rev 15:3,4 And they sang the song of Moses... and the song of the Lamb, saying, "Great and marvelous are Thy works, O Lord God, the Almighty; Righteous and true are Thy ways, Thou King of the Nations. Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Thy name? For Thou alone art holy; For all the nations will come and worship before Thee, for Thy righteous acts have been revealed."

All thumbs up! Being a Universalist who believe in eventual universal salvation, one of my most favorite verses is 1Corinthians 15:22 & C.

May the peace of Christ be upon you.

 ::smile:: Eve and then Adam was tempted in the garden of God. We [humans] are tempted in the "Same" like manner as they. Jesus [the son of man] was tempted in the same like manner as His brethren [humans].

So are we saying then that there was no "Tempter" other than their own selves?

That there is no spiritual influence over mankind?

Then are we also to say that the influence of the Holy Spirit of God is also just a thing of the mind and that it has always been mans ability to choose right or wrong?

If that which has been represented in this thread is considered as "Truth" pertaining to Lucifer, Satan, that ole Devil, Serpent the Dragon, Then who pray tell rose up against the almighty God as spoken by the prophet Isaiah?

Who did the Holy Father cast judgment upon stating: "I will burn you to ashes from within" because of his trechery in the kingdom? [Ezekiel]

Who came forth to deceive the nations [Rev].


If Satan [Lucifer the devil] is just a figmient of our imagination and not a real person [fallen angel] whose desire it is to overthrow the throne of God and set over creation as God, then why all this?

Why would God create an entity of fiction and write a book pertaining to it?

Is all this a fairytale?


"PLEASE"


JTF

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html (http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html)

: gospel  Fri Nov 20, 2009 - 17:45:48

Is Universalism Biblical?

From an article published by Reasoning from the Scriptures Ministry

        Universalism states that sooner or later all people will be saved. This position holds that the concepts of hell and punishment are inconsistent with a loving God.

        The older form of universalism, originating in the second century, taught that salvation would come after a temporary period of punishment. The newer form of universalism declares that all men are now saved, though all do not realize it. Therefore the job of the preacher and the missionary is to tell people they are already saved. Certain passages - John 12:32, Philippians 2:11, and 1 Timothy 2:4 - are typically twisted out of context in support of universalism.

        Such passages, interpreted properly, do not support universalism:

            * John 12:32 says that Christ's work on the cross makes possible the salvation of both Jews and Gentiles. Notice, however, that the Lord - in the same passage - warned of judgment of those who reject Christ (v. 48).
            * Philippians 2:10-11 assures us that someday all people will acknowledge that Jesus is Lord, but not necessarily as Savior. (Even those in hell will have to acknowledge Christ's Lordship.)
            * First Timothy 2:4 expresses God's desire that all be saved, but does not promise that all will be. This divine desire is only realized in those who exercise faith in Christ.

        The Scriptures consistently categorize people into one of two classes (saved/unsaved, also called believers/unbelievers), and portray the final destiny of every person as being one of two realities (heaven or hell).

            * In Matthew 13:30 Jesus in a parable said, "Let both [tares and wheat] grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn." Here unbelievers and believers are spoken of as tares and wheat. Two classes!
            * In Matthew 13:49 Jesus said, "This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous." Again, two classes are mentioned - unbelievers and believers spoken of as the wicked and the righteous.
            * In Matthew 25:32 Jesus said that following His second coming, "All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats." Here believers and unbelievers are differentiated by the terms "sheep" and "goats." The sheep will enter into God's kingdom (vs. 34) and inherit eternal life (vs. 46). The goats go into eternal punishment (vs. 46).
            * In Luke 16:26 we find Abraham in the afterlife telling the unsaved rich man: "Between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us." Hades apparently had two compartments: "paradise" for the saved, and "torments" for the unsaved - and these compartments were separated by a great chasm or gulf.

        Clearly, then, the Scriptures speak of two classes of people (the saved and the unsaved) and two possible destinies (heaven for the saved; hell for the unsaved). And each respective person ends up in one of these places based upon whether or not he or she placed saving faith in Christ during his or her time on earth (Acts 16:31).

Hell is all natural.