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John's view of the Great Tribulation from apocalyptic language.

Tyrone

Sun, 30 Aug 2009 11:01:00 +0000
Before we start the last study on the great tribulation let me say please do not let anyone ever tell you that any scri pture in the Bible has nothing to do with salvation. All of the Bible is about God's plan of salvation form the book of Genesis to Revelation.

People have had the desire to understand the book of Revelation but many have often given up due to the highly apocalyptic language within the book. "The book of Revelation is apocalyptic; therefore, I can never understand it." Well the truth is God never meant for the book of Revelation to be a great mystery to Christians.

The first thing one must understand about the book of Revelation is that it is a book composed almost entirely of symbols ..... symbols that a first century Jew would have found immediately recognizable. These symbols were used before in such books as Deuteronomy, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Jeremiah, Hosea, and Zechariah. They are closely associated with the book of Revelation.

For example in the Tabernacle the only light in the Holy Place would have come from the golden lampstands. We find the details for the lampstands listed in Exodus 25. And we find the symbolic use both in Zechariah 4 and Revelation 1. In the case of Revelation reference Christ is the source of the light. Zechariah used the lampstands in a similar manner, as Jehovah God is the light source.

So John would naturally borrow from their Old Testament Jewish imagery and symbols. Many of the events recorded in the Old Testament were strikingly filmier whether in reality or symbolically to the Jewish Christians of that day. Bringing those events to memory would serve to drive home the messages in Revelation.

These symbols were not selected as (fill in) by the Holy Spirit when He inspired the book, and they do not stand for just anything we may desire in our future. These symbols were not strange to John's original audience to whom the book was written. These symbols were generally understood that Revelation drew on spiritual truths and historical realities. Symbols were like flags being raised that great tribulation was coming. While those being warned would not heed it. Believers, understood these symbols as signs of victory.

John's writing in Revelation 17:1-18 is quite unique as he takes a series of pictures that when put together become a full-motion picture. John is like the photographer who, in capturing a scene, takes pictures from many different angles, that can be seen throughout the book. John will take a series of pictures and then he will move around to a different point of observation. Here John tell the same story of the great tribulation but in apocalyptic language.

We begin with John's snap shot of (Revelation 17:1-2) Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me, "Come, I will show you (the judgment) of the (great harlot) who sits on many waters, with whom the kings of the earth (committed fornication), and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication." (emphasis added)

The women here is pictured and introduced as a prostitute women. This arrangement with Roman can be seen beginning with the crucifixion of Christ. The Romans had no desire to kill Jesus. It was the wicked Jews who shouted 'Crucify him! Crucify Let his blood be on us and our children (Matthews 27:22-25). And it was the wicked Jews who said. "If you let this Man go, you are not Caesar's friend. Whoever makes himself a king speaks against Caesar." (John 19:12)

Spiritual fornication or harlotry in scri pture indicates the breaking of God's covenant, or a departure from his ways (Ezekiel 16: 6-22). The LORD said also to me in the days of Josiah the king: "Have you seen what backsliding Israel has done? She has gone up on every high mountain and under every green tree, and there played the harlot. (Jeremiah 3:6) The nation of Israel had been in covenant relationship with God for 15.000 years, and had been referred to as a women married to the Lord, had sworn faith and love in all things to her rightful husband; but as was so often the case in Old Testament apostasies, even so now in the day of her redemption and visitation, she has shamefully forsaken and rejected him in whoring after strangers. (Jeremiah 3:20 concerning Jerusalem) Surely, as a wife treacherously departs from her husband, So have you dealt treacherously with Me, O house of Israel.' says the Lord.

What is meant by she sits on many waters or lives by many waters'? This terminology is used in (Jeremiah 51:13) concerning the ancient city of Babylon were it was first applied.. There it denoted the vast expanse of influence she had in both civil and political realms. "waters" in Revelation often signifies "people" or nations instead of "H2O." (Dwelling upon many waters) denoted the broad expanse of the Babylon kingdom in the exercise of its political and civil power. Babylon was the civil king of that day. Jerusalem was to the world religiously what Babylon was politically.

John new move around to a different point of observation. So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a (woman sitting on a scarlet beast) which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. (Revelation 17:3) Here the harlot women is riding or sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

An interpretive angel appears for the express purpose of explaining the vision: "But the angel said to me, "Why did you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns." (Rev 17:7). Then in verses 9 and 10 this angel explains the vision: "Here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitting. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space."

Most evangelical scholars recognize that the seven mountains represent the famed seven hills of Rome. The recipients of Revelation lived under the rule of Rome, which was universally distinguished by its seven hills would have immediately recognizable this symbol. How could the recipients, living in the seven historical churches of Asia Minor and under Roman imperial rule, understand anything else but this geographical picture of John?

But there is an additional information involved. The seven heads have a two-fold referent. We learn also that the seven heads represent a political situation in which five kings have fallen, the sixth is, and the seventh is yet to come and will remain but a short while. It is surely no accident that Nero was the sixth emperor of Rome, who reigned after the deaths of his five predecessors and before the brief rule of the seventh emperor.

Flavius Josephus, the Jewish contemporary of John, clearly points out that Julius Caesar was the first emperor of Rome and that he was followed in succession by Augustus, Tiberius, Caius, Claudius, and Nero (Antiquities 18; 19). We discover this enumeration also in other near contemporaries of John: 4 Ezra 11 and 12; Sibylline Oracles, books 5 and 8; Barnabas, Epistle 4; Suetonius, Lives of the Twelve Caesars; and Dio Cassius' Roman History 5.

The text of Revelation says of the seven kings "five have fallen." The first five emperors are dead, when John writes. But the verse goes on to say "one is." That is, the sixth one is then reigning even as John wrote. That would be Nero Caesar, who assumed imperial power upon the death of Claudius in October, A.D. 54, and remained emperor until June, A.D. 68.

John continues: "The other is not yet come; and when he comes, he must continue a short space." When the Roman Civil Wars broke out in rebellion against him, Nero committed suicide on June 8, A.D. 68. The seventh king was "not yet come." That would be Galba, who assumed power in June, A.D. 68. But he was only to continue a "short space." His reign lasted but six months, until January 15, A.D. 69. Thus, we see that while John wrote, Nero was still alive and Galba was looming in the near future. Revelation could not have been written after June, A.D. 68, according to the internal political evidence. In this vision we discover strong evidence that Revelation was written before the death of Nero, which occurred on June 8, A.D. 68.

The woman/whore represents apostate Jerusalem and sitting on the beast means she has the political power she controls the beast. A beast is a symbol used to depict a political state, such as the lion, bear, and leopard of Daniel 7, representing the kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persian and Greece respectively.

The ten horns of the beast (17:12-17) are defined as ten kings or provincial governors who aided in the war against the Lamb Christ. verse 14. Farrar lists ten major provinces that constituted the Roman Empire in the days of Nero–namely: Italy, Achaia, Asia, Syria, Egypt, Africa, Spain, Gaul, Britain and Germany. They united with Nero in the matter of war against the Lamb, and of Christian persecution.

The interpretive angel further explains the identify the harlot woman in his vision: The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication. (Revelation 17:4) The garment of this women is the exact garment of the high priest of Israel, according to the Bible, contained specific colors:

"Now take Aaron your brother, and his sons with him, from among the children of Israel, that he may minister to Me as priest, Aaron and Aaron's sons: Nadab, Abihu, Eleazar, and Ithamar. And you shall make holy garments for Aaron your brother, for glory and for beauty. So you shall speak to all who are gifted artisans, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, that they may make Aaron's garments, to consecrate him, that he may minister to Me as priest. And these are the garments which they shall make: a breastplate, an ephod, a robe, a skillfully woven tunic, a turban, and a sash. So they shall make holy garments for Aaron your brother and his sons, that he may minister to Me as priest. "They shall take the gold, blue, purple, and scarlet thread, and the fine linen, and they shall make the ephod of gold, blue, purple, and scarlet thread, and fine woven linen, artistically worked. It shall have two shoulder straps joined at its two edges, and so it shall be joined together. And the intricately woven band of the ephod, which is on it, shall be of the same workmanship, made of gold, blue, purple, and scarlet thread, and fine woven linen. "Then you shall take two onyx stones and engrave on them the names of the sons of Israel: (Exodus 28:1-9)

The garments of the high priest include gold, purple, scarlet, and blue. This de scri ption is of the woman of (Revelation 17:4)

John now move around to a different point of observation and takes another picture that makes the harlot woman becomes ever clearer. And on her forehead a name was written: MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement. (Revelation 17:5-6)

cont'd...........

The women represents apostate Jerusalem....... I dont think so....... more MAN words.... not biblical!

  
In Matthew 23:32 Jesus said the Jews were about to fill the cup of their sin by continuing to persecute those sent to her; in Revelation 17 Babylon has filled her cup by persecuting not only the prophets of old but the followers of Jesus as well, 17:6. In Matthew 23:35 Jesus said Jerusalem was guilty of "all the blood shed on the earth," 23:35; in Revelation 18:24 Babylon bears the guilt for "all the blood shed on the earth." In Matthew 23:36 Jesus said judgment on Jerusalem for killing the prophets would come in his generation. In Acts Stephen said to the Jews. "You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, (Acts 7:51-52) Such parallels are not accidental!

More importantly, as just seen, Jesus defined Jerusalem as the persecuting city drunken with the blood of the saints. In Matthew 23:31-39 and Luke 11:47-51 Jesus said it was Jerusalem that had slain the prophets through the ages. To mistakenly identify Babylon is to incorrectly interpret these issues. Babylon or Jerusalem is at the heart and center of all antichristian power.

She sought to destroy the spiritual seed of the new covenant, as represented by Isaac an Sarah (Galatians 4:21-31) Therefore, the power that was most threatening to spiritual Israel was natural body of Judaism. How could the Jewish recipients, living under this historical event understand anything else but its symbolic feature?

John now moves to another place of observation. "And the ten horns which you saw on the beast. these (will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, ear her flesh and burn her with fire). "For God has (put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose), to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the works of God are fulfilled. (Revelation 17:16-17 emphasis added)

The alliance between Jerusalem and Rome against the Church had been temporarily successful. Rome was following and carrying out Jerusalem's desires for the killing and persecution of the Christians. Now God would put into the heart of Rome to turn on the harlot Jerusalem.

This was accomplished when the Jews foolishly believed the time has come for them to throw off the Roman yoke, and thereby become the established kingdom of her prophecies which proved to be her complete destruction. Because of their lawlessness they refused to believe the promise kingdom was not of that world. (John 18:36) Rome did not initiate the war against Jerusalem. Jerusalem was already under the authority and control of Rome. Nero picked Titus Flavius Vespasian to put Israel back under Roman tribute and control.

Headstrong man in Jerusalem itself, kept irritating the people and inciting them to rebel against Rome. The people quit paying their taxes. This would have been sufficient in itself to cause Rome to turn against Jerusalem. The Jews sought an earthly throne in literal Jerusalem. They thought the world to come would consist of a literal fulfillment of their Messianic prophecies. She wanted her types and shadows to be fulfilled in a literalistic or nationalistic manner being blinded by the earthly or carnal system of Moses. But their continued hope of a national restoration failed them. Rome's devastating invasion of Palestine was putting in the heart of Rome to turn on the harlot Jerusalem.

God was now rendering on Jerusalem what they did the saints. (Revelation 18:4-7) The expression "Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. This is similar language concerning Jesus' first warning to the saints in (Matthew 24:16-20) Had they not left Jerusalem they two would have been caught in the judgement.

John now begins to take pictures leading up to the final shot. In Revelation 18:7 we read. In the measure that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, in the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her heart, 'I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.'

Her long history of religious supremacy and distinctive favor with God had cultivated within her a spirit like unto the rich men who fared sumptuously. (Luke 16:19) It also cultivated within her a spirit of denial. (am no widow, and will not see sorrow).

In Revelation 18:11-19 we read; And the merchants of the earth weep and mourn over her, because no one buys their cargoes any more cargoes of gold and silver and precious stones and pearls and fine linen and purple and silk and scarlet, and every kind of citron wood and every article of ivory and every article made from very costly wood and bronze and iron and marble, and cinnamon and spice and incense and perfume and frankincense and wine and olive oil and fine flour and wheat and cattle and sheep, and cargoes of horses and chariots and slaves and human lives.

The fruit you long for has gone from you, and all things that were luxurious and splendid have passed away from you and men will no longer find them. The merchants of these things, who became rich from her, will stand at a distance because of the fear of her torment, weeping and mourning, saying, Woe, woe, the great city, she who was clothed in fine linen and purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls; for in one hour such great wealth has been laid waste! And every shipmaster and every passenger and sailor, and as many as make their living by the sea, stood at a distance, and were crying out as they saw the smoke of her burning, saying,

What city is like the great city? And they threw dust on their heads and were crying out, weeping and mourning, saying, Woe, woe, the great city, in which all who had ships at sea became rich by her wealth, for in one hour she has been laid waste!"

The Old City of Jerusalem was originally built by King David in 1004 B.C.E. and has always been considered the center of the world. Everything revolved around it. Jerusalem was the navel of the world and the meeting place. There were fisherman, ship builders, woodworkers, trades in metals, pottery and crafts etc. There was a merchant class ready to buy and sell anything near or far, and money lenders who lived off of interest payments. The system was air tight, until the Messiah greatly upset Jerusalem city life. He cleansed the Temple money changers twice - directly challenging the High Priests (John 2:13; Mat. 21:12) "The merchants of the earth ... became rich because of Jerusalem."

This even had been long prophesied about by God. Moreover I will make you a waste and a reproach among the nations that are all around you, (in the sight of all who pass by). 'So it shall be a reproach, a taunt, a lesson, and an astonishment to the nations that are all around you, when I execute judgments among you in anger and in fury and in furious rebukes. I, the LORD, have spoken. When I send against them the terrible arrows of famine which shall be for destruction, which I will send to destroy you, I will increase the famine upon you and cut off your supply of bread. So I will send against you famine and wild beasts, and they will bereave you. Pestilence and blood shall pass through you, and I will bring the sword against you. I, the LORD, have spoken.'" (Ezekiel 5:14-17 emphasis added) Please read all the chapter.

John now moves around with his camera at takes the final shot. "Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you (holy apostles and prophets, for God has avenged you on her)!" Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, "Thus with violence the great city Babylon shall be thrown down, and shall not be found anymore. The sound of harpists, musicians, flutists, and trumpeters shall not be heard in you anymore. No craftsman of any craft shall be found in you anymore, and the sound of a millstone shall not be heard in you anymore. (Revelation 18:20-21 emphasis added)

God had now avenged on Jerusalem for the killing of the apostles and prophets (Matthew 23:36) The Pharisees were the true authorities for interpreting the laws of God. The Pharisees and teachers of the law would not admit it, but their underlying position was that God's law was not enough. They introduced hundreds of detailed rules and regulations They were giving extra rules and laws to expand what Moses had given.

Their problem was that they did not even keep the law that God has already given through Moses his prophet, and he did not need anyone to add to it. Jesus attacked the Pharisees and Teachers, calling them hypocrites and impostors (Matthew 23:23). With all the hundreds of detailed rules and regulation added to the law, it became a millstone, around the neck of God's people.

The Temple along with the system of the laws of Moses came immediately under attack and fell on August 10, 70AD. The upper city fell on September 7, 70AD and the capture of Jerusalem was over. That millstone was threw it into the sea, and shall not be found anymore.

Titus ordered Jerusalem be completely leveled and work began. However, he allowed part of the walls to remain in their place. All the stones were thrown down at that time. Eleazar, commander of the Temple along with many Jewish men, women, and children escaped from Jerusalem fled to Massada, a fortress in the wilderness built by Herod. Fighting dragged on for three more years after Jerusalem fell and ended when Massada was captured in 73AD.

Despite the alliance between Jerusalem and Rome and the vigorous and universal persecution of the Church, Nero and the Jews failed to purge the world of Christian power and influence. The faith and sacrifice of the saints proved to be stronger than the fiery trials and persecutions. Their earthly forces were no match for the spiritual power of Christ's gospel. Thus, Nero failed to serve Israel's purpose.

God was not simply doing away with a national system and people; he was also receiving and bringing to perfection a spiritual nation. Unlike national Judaism, spiritual Israel cannot be entered, possessed, or ruled by earthy kinds. The spiritual rule and dominion of Christ is not vulnerable to the military might and ingenuity of civil governments. Nations shall rise and fall, but spiritual nation of Israel shall abide forever. Unlike national Judaism, spiritual Israel has the faith of (Galatians 3:29).

God in the bible always called Jerusalem the APPLE of his eye my friend to say aposate Jerusalem .... is well I will get strong and say your tongue is from Lucifer.... where did God ever call Jerusalem a whore? ..... but he called it the apple.....

This almost makes me sick that Christians can think this way. context all out of wack... but they want and like to think this way sick! Why read antisemitism and hatred twardes God Jehovah  on the news when you can get it from Christians.

: Bikelite  Sun Jan 17, 2010 - 20:58:28
God in the bible always called Jerusalem the APPLE of his eye my friend to say aposate Jerusalem .... is well I will get strong and say your tongue is from Lucifer.... where did God ever call Jerusalem a wh*re? ..... but he called it the apple.....

Ah, don't get too sick, Bikelite, it isn't worth it .  The end result IS GOOD NEWS!

APOSTASY : Hebrews reflects Jews apostatizing and returning to Judaism (Heb 2:1-3, 3:6 and 14, 6:4-6, 10:26-27). Cf. Gal 5:4; 1 Jn 2:18-20, and 4:3, but especially 2:24, all of which report apostasy during the time of the apostles. Also 1 Tim 4:1, 2 Pet 2:1-2 and 20-21.


And Israel was called the harlot several times before by God.
Isa.1:21, 21 How the faithful city has become a harlot!
     It was full of justice;
     Righteousness lodged in it,
     But now murderers.

You confuse the true Israel of God which is Christ, with national Israel of the circumcision.

National fleshly ISRAEL or ZION was plowed like a field & Jerusalem (spiritual city) was raised up. God would not put up with the Jews who were no longer "holy" the people were destroyed & only the "holy" Zion remains before God always.
God divorced national Israel & was to "remarry" her in a spiritual way through the Messiah in the 1st century AD.

Only the remnant (Apostles & the 144k) which were assigned salvation bc of faith became part of the New Covenant of no distinctions of Jew/Gentile, male/female in Christ.

All that mattered was circumcision of the heart.

But as a whole, Israel rejected her Messiah & the kingdom of God/heaven was given to nation who bore good fruit & whose names are in the Lamb's book of life.(Christians in the New Jerusalem)

: Bikelite  Sun Jan 17, 2010 - 21:16:38
This almost makes me sick that Christians can think this way. context all out of wack... but they want and like to think this way sick! Why read antisemitism and hatred twardes God Jehovah  on the news when you can get it from Christians.

I think you are confusing ambivalents with anti-semitism.  I could care less about Israel as a nation, but I do care that they are evangelised as much as possible.  I pray that Israel will be dominated by Chrisitians.

Unfortunately, most people like you could care less about their souls, all they care is that their bizarre end-times eschatology is fulfilled... while the Jews go to hell.

Tantor... I could care less about Israel as a nation..... do I have to say more? Does T know that Christ was a Jew ... In a way as close as God Jesus can come.to man.

In the bible was there not a Lineage Christ will come into the world ? if Im wrong please help me. Its the same sick theology that prevails in some christians

: Bikelite  Mon Jan 18, 2010 - 16:27:04
In the bible was there not a Lineage Christ will come into the world ? if Im wrong please help me. Its the same sick theology that prevails in some christians

It goes something like this Bikelite- 

Galatians 4:21-31 (New King James Version)

Two Covenants
   
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the[a] two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:


      " Rejoice, O barren,
      You who do not bear!
      Break forth and shout,
      You who are not in labor!
      For the desolate has many more children
      Than she who has a husband.

: Bikelite  Mon Jan 18, 2010 - 16:13:42
Tantor... I could care less about Israel as a nation..... do I have to say more? Does T know that Christ was a Jew ... In a way as close as God Jesus can come.to man.

Yes, God proved that even the most stiff necked and unfaithful race on the entire planet could be redeemed by the person of Jesus.

Really, when you read the Old Testament and see the things the nation of Israel did.. and later on the Jews.. they were the most short minded 'what have you done lately' group of people I have ever read about.  Which is why I believe that God chose them..

R... you just do not get it ..... some day I hope . but time is short .

I get it... and the time is not short at all.  We all have the rest of our natural lives.

Good for you T. I wouldnt X less.

: Bikelite  Mon Jan 18, 2010 - 18:04:18
R... you just do not get it ..... some day I hope . but time is short .

Get what? Like the craziness on the Obadiah thread?!  Someday you may get with reality. The time is not short.
It was short in John's day but not today.

But God judges evil from good 24/7 anyway. In case you haven't noticed. ::playingguitar::

                                                          (http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/7735/robot.gif)

: rezar  Mon Jan 18, 2010 - 20:59:28
Get what? Like the craziness on the Obadiah thread?!  Someday you may get with reality. The time is not short.
It was short in John's day but not today.

But God judges evil from good 24/7 anyway. In case you haven't noticed. ::playingguitar::

                                                          (http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/7735/robot.gif)

Rezar, you are my friend in Preterism.  I don't quite agree on Rev.17 and the 10 kings anymore but the other 99% I'm a true believer in too!

There are several elements of your analysis that I find highly questionable, but for now I will focus on these.  You write, correctly, that Revelation was written in  language that was intended to be understood by its audience.  You are correct.  Revelation was an apocalypse.  There were several of these floating around in John's day.  They all were code for Israel's deliverance from the Roman Empire, not Jewish deliverance from an apostate Temple leadership.  In fact the most highly objectionable point of your analysis of all is the identification of the Great City as ancient Jerusalem.  Revelation states that the great city is the city that sits on seven hills, the closest thing to an overt reference to ancient Rome that John dares make.  I have read intellectually tortured descriptions of the geography around Jerusalem that identify seven hills in it's proximity, but they are just that, intellectually tortured.  Jerusalem was never known as the city that sits on seven hills.  I have not rehashed the historical arguments for an AD 94 dating of Revelation because I am sure you are familiar with them and have found ways around them.  However, I urge you to at least consider the possibility that Revelation was a prophetic metaphor for the conflict between the early church and the Roman Empire that lasted until about the fall of Rome in AD 410.

  Much of Rev is literal, & its symbolism always represents a literal thing. I believe God showed John symbolic things, both for brevity, & the fact John wouldn'te understood the actual literal things, such as modern weapons, microchips, etc. but God made the symbolism so that WE could know what it means. No one should have any trouble knowing what the woman pursued by the dragon means, either the woman, dragon, or her child. And we easily see the beast from the sea is both a man & his empire. And it doesn't take rocket science to see those things have not yet happened !

: lea  Tue Apr 28, 2020 - 17:43:51Rezar, you are my friend in Preterism.  I don't quite agree on Rev.17 and the 10 kings anymore but the other 99% I'm a true believer in too!

"Why" dig up a post ten years old, there's no profit in doing so. Start a new one.

Re: Revelation's symbolic language

All of the word of God should be read literally and if the literal makes no sense, then we should seek out the true biblically sense, using ONLY the word of God to interpret the same. Using history to interpret the scriptures is using using extra-biblical sources that leave the holy scriptures "open game" for men to force their own understanding on the scriptures and must be rejected by the faithful who seeks their understanding from the holy scriptures ALONE.

:  robycop3 on: Today at 13:13:27 Much of Rev is literal,

You would have a hard time proving that for sure. Revelation is to be interpreted spiritually by using ONLY the holy scriptures for truth is hidden therein and NOT outside of them.

: robycop3 on: Today at 13:13:27its symbolism always represents a literal thing.

Well, of course, it does, yet still we must spiritually interpret them by using God's written word. Literalism and ONLY using that system get a person into serious position that they cannot defend.

Preterism is a lie and by the time these folk gets through with the scriptures, they have taken the scriptures totally out of our hands of the faithful and stamp them FULLFILLED 70. A.D.!

:  DanielConway on: Today at 11:20:24You write, correctly, that Revelation was written in  language that was intended to be understood by its audience.

By the faithful saints, MAINLY latter-day saints during the great tribulation that started around the late 1700's up to where we are now living.

I have said little but truly this needs another thread.

  Well, actually, the great trib won't start til the beast/antichrist is in power, & the rapture has occurred.

: robycop3  Sun May 03, 2020 - 16:10:25Well, actually, the great trib won't start til the beast/antichrist is in power, & the rapture has occurred.

Really? Then I have ONE QUESTION for you to answer and it is this: "Which comes FIRST, Christ's coming to gather together the church unto him, or antichrist?" Be careful before you open your lips, you just might be put to shame.

I'll wait for your answer. PLEASE provide scriptures ONLY for your answer. Bible questions demand bible proofs in order to be biblically and from the very mouth of God Himself.  Be careful I have a loaded question or else I would have never asked it.

: RB  Sun May 03, 2020 - 15:09:13
"Why" dig up a post ten years old, there's no profit in doing so. Start a new one. All of the word of God should be read literally and if the literal makes no sense, then we should seek out the true biblically sense, using ONLY the word of God to interpret the same. Using history to interpret the scriptures is using using extra-biblical sources that leave the holy scriptures "open game" for men to force their own understanding on the scriptures and must be rejected by the faithful who seeks their understanding from the holy scriptures ALONE. You would have a hard time proving that for sure. Revelation is to be interpreted spiritually by using ONLY the holy scriptures for truth is hidden therein and NOT outside of them. Well, of course, it does, yet still we must spiritually interpret them by using God's written word. Literalism and ONLY using that system get a person into serious position that they cannot defend.

Preterism is a lie and by the time these folk gets through with the scriptures, they have taken the scriptures totally out of our hands of the faithful and stamp them FULLFILLED 70. A.D.!By the faithful saints, MAINLY latter-day saints during the great tribulation that started around the late 1700's up to where we are now living.

I have said little but truly this needs another thread.


I don't know. Are you Red Baker from 10 years ago?

Just look at how much manner was given to rezar when we had a handful of full preterists here.

Now there is only a troll sounding like a gong who knows nada about prophecy interpretation.

If you want to debate me about something in eschatology RB, let's do it!

I put the past behind me but I'm still jazzed to show you who's on the money.

Thank you Lord!



.

: lea  Thu May 07, 2020 - 20:24:57I don't know. Are you Red Baker from 10 years ago?

Yes, I'am he. Computer failure made me change my name.... sorta.

: lea  Thu May 07, 2020 - 20:32:21Just look at how much manner was given to rezar when we had a handful of full preterists here.

Now there is only a troll sounding like a gong who knows nada about prophecy interpretation.

If you want to debate me about something in eschatology RB, let's do it!

I put the past behind me but I'm still jazzed to show you who's on the money.

Thank you Lord!

One little word for you:

1st Kings 20:11~"And the king of Israel answered and said, Tell him, Let not him that girdeth on his harness boast himself as he that putteth it off."

     John Gill's exposition of the Bible makes you look like Christ hasn't won the victories for us: 1Kings 20:11-
Ver. 11 And the king of Israel answered and said
Very mildly and very wisely:

tell him, let not him that girdeth on his harness boast himself as he
that putteth it off;
that is, he that prepares for the battle as he that has got the victory; the sense is, let no man triumph before the battle is over and the victory won; the events of war are uncertain; the battle is not always to the strong.


Ha! RB,  Are you comparing me to a wartime general?!  I'm flattered.... not really!

So if you don't believe Christ won the battle over sin for us, over Satan for us, over death for us, over salvation by works for us, etc..... AND continually makes us conquerors - then I disagree with your using 1 Kings quote for anything except O.T. history.

Has nothing to do with end times anyway.

And yes, I am rezar from 10 years ago too.  Stayed away too long and forgot my password, so I had to re-register.

I only "boast" in the Lord - Who gives me any talent and skills, and everything else good from God.  ::amen!::

: lea  Fri May 08, 2020 - 14:23:34Ha! RB,  Are you comparing me to a wartime general?!  I'm flattered.... not really!

No, I trust that I'm wiser than to do so. Not really sure how you came up with that conclusion, but truly it should not surprise me and it does not.

I used 1st Kings 20:11 to warn folks who are just starting out to battle not to boast as he who is taking his armor off after many years of battles! My words which were few obviously went right over your head!

: lea lea on: Yesterday at 14:23:34 So if you don't believe Christ won the battle over sin for us, over Satan for us, over death for us, over salvation by works for us, etc..... AND continually makes us conquerors - then I disagree with your using 1 Kings quote for anything except O.T. history.

WOW! Is that what you got from me quoting 1st Kings 20:11 to you? If so, then you are not in position to debate even on an elementary level with beginners! Not sure I would want to waste my precious time with you, to be honest.

: RB  Sat May 09, 2020 - 05:48:21

I used 1st Kings 20:11 to warn folks who are just starting out to battle not to boast as he who is taking his armor off after many years of battles! My words which were few obviously went right over your head! WOW! Is that what you got from me quoting 1st Kings 20:11 to you? If so, then you are not in position to debate even on an elementary level with beginners! Not sure I would want to waste my precious time with you, to be honest.

You quoting 1Kings 20:11 to me is a waste of my precious time.

I already have "victory" in Christ. Go do battle somewhere else. ::cool::

: lea  Sat May 09, 2020 - 21:44:45You quoting 1Kings 20:11 to me is a waste of my precious time.

I already have "victory" in Christ. Go do battle somewhere else

I'm SURE it is young soldier! So many young folks believe that wisdom was born WITH THEM and with them WILL DIE. That is called being deceived through the pride of one's own heart which IS deceitful ABOVE ALL THINGS.

: RB  Wed May 13, 2020 - 05:03:57
I'm SURE it is young soldier! So many young folks believe that wisdom was born WITH THEM and with them WILL DIE. That is called being deceived through the pride of one's own heart which IS deceitful ABOVE ALL THINGS.

I still want to know what your answer has to do with the TOPIC?

: lea  Wed May 13, 2020 - 15:16:09I still want to know what your answer has to do with the TOPIC?

One more time then I'm finished with you on this. You said:

: lea on: Thu May 07, 2020 - 20:32:21If you want to debate me about something in eschatology RB, let's do it! I put the past behind me but I'm still jazzed to show you who's on the money.

It was your boastful spirit~to which I said back to you:

1st Kings 20:11~"And the king of Israel answered and said, Tell him, Let not him that girdeth on his harness boast himself as he that putteth it off."

I have been doing this for around fifty years, and I was just reminding you NOT to boast toward him that is putting off his armor.

Besides, I have not as of yet seen any females that can defeat males in battle. That's why we have TWO SPORTS SYSTEMS in every nation under heaven~one for males, one for females. If in any area they could compete it WOULD BE on this level of a spiritual battle, but even here it would be hard, but it could happen (and I have seen it happen a few times over on a small level of discussions)  since all it takes is TRUTH and being filled with the Spirit of God which a female can, but there would be other factors when both of these are equal that would come into play even in this spiritual warfare.

Oh please, folks, let's not let this disintegrate into an age vs. youth, male vs. female bash.  We can do better than that.  RB, I'm sure you remember the young but wise Elihu giving counsel to Job and his older friends, and Christ giving the very first post-resurrection, evangelistic commission to the woman Mary.  Boldness and confidence is often confused with a proud spirit.  I try not to mistake one for the other.

As for your one question to robycop3 about a so-called pretrib rapture, RB, I doubt you will get a response from scripture, since it is quite plainly presented as the opposite from II Thess. 2.

: 3 Resurrections  Thu May 14, 2020 - 09:30:50Boldness and confidence is often confused with a proud spirit.  I try not to mistake one for the other.

So do I, yet her words were very clear as to why she said what she did....nevertheless, I'm finished and will forbear saying any more along these lines.

: 3 Resurrections on: Today at 09:30:50As for your one question to robycop3 about a so-called pretrib rapture, RB, I doubt you will get a response from scripture, since it is quite plainly presented as the opposite from II Thess. 2.

I knew that when I asked the question based upon these words:

: Paul2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3~"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Do you believe I would ask a question not knowing FIRST the answer? Never! A wise lawyer would never do so, and if one did, it only proves that he is not worth his legal fees and he should be the one paying you to work for you, since he's on the job learning by trial and error.

Much like folks do in debates...... especially beginners.  ::smile::

  And that man of sin has NOT yet been made manifest. Paul didn't make that statement on his own. JESUS gave it to him, as rumor-mongers were spreading the false statement among the Thessalonian Christians that Jesus had already returned.

  That's one of the Scriptures that proves preterism false.

Robycop3, you're doing it again- not reading the fine print about Hymenaeus' and Philetus'  heresy that had made its way to the Thessalonians church.  You are misquoting them.

II Tim. 2:17-18  "And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; who concerning the truth have erred, saying THAT THE RESURRECTION IS PAST ALREADY; and overthrow the faith of some." (As the sorrowing Thessalonians were ignorantly supposing about their dead loved ones.)

Do you see anything at all about Christ's return having taken place already stated in this II Timothy quote?  It's NOT there, and do you know why?  It's because both Hymenaeus and Philetus were looking at the resurrection of Christ and the Matthew 27:52-53 saints raised to life along with Him, and were presuming that this PAST AD 33 group resurrection was the only one the saints could expect to occur.  They were right in one respect; namely, that a past, mass resurrection of saints HAD occurred along with Christ rising from the dead.  But they were mistaken that it was the one-and-only resurrection that would take place.

We know their teaching only a single past  resurrection was an error, of course.  But it was an error that sounded plausible to the first-century believers, since the Matt, 27:52-53 resurrected saints were a truly astounding number for many to witness - a "multitude of captives" (Eph. 4:8) raised along with "Christ the First-fruits" (I Cor. 25:20,23).   

Their number amounted to 144,000 First-fruits, coming from those named tribes who had been buried locally at Jerusalem (Rev. 7 and 14).  And we know these First-fruits resurrected saints were still living and ministering among the early church in those days of Paul's ministry, because Paul said the church still had the First-fruits in Romans 8:23.  Hymenaeus and Philetus would have either seen some of them, or at the very least have heard about them, and were basing their heresy on that knowledge.

There are many, many references to these Matt. 27:52-53 resurrected saints in the NT, if you know where to look for them.  The members of the "First Resurrection" are a fascinating group.

  No, that special group of Israelis has NOT yet been raised. Those who rose when Jesus died, died again, as did Lazarus, Jairus' daughter, and Dorcas. The ONLY resurrected One who didn't die again is JESUS.

  The 144K are not resurrected, but will be Israelis who will come to Jesus during the great trib, but before He physically returns.

: robycop3  Thu May 14, 2020 - 17:24:04That's one of the Scriptures that proves preterism false.

I fully agree that preterism is false in every form of it, partial, full, or hyper. Partial are the historical of the Amill camp, which are just as corrupt. I fall in the camp of Amill idealist that is futurist yet much different from the Premill futurist of which you belong.

: robycop3 on: Thu May 14, 2020 - 17:24:04That's one of the Scriptures that proves preterism false

Actually sir, it proves your system of eschatology to be error more than the other camps. So far you have made no attempt to answer my question to you, would you like to prove that you can, or at least admit that you cannot and you need time to research this more, which at least would show that you have a noble spirit and you to be a true seeker of God's truth. By making no attempt, also shows a side of you that would be far from possessing a noble spirit as we read of in Acts 17:10,11~ concerning the Berean Christians.

: robycop3 on: Thu May 14, 2020 - 17:24:04And that man of sin has NOT yet been made manifest

Let us say that he has not yet come~then again, let me ask you.... "which one MUST come first, the man of sin, or Christ to gather together us unto him? 

: robycop3 on: Thu May 14, 2020 - 17:24:04And that man of sin has NOT yet been made manifest

I contend base on the word of God that the man of sin has come.

Let me ask you another question. What is the man of sin based on God's testimony? The key is clearly seen in the phrase "Man of sin"....need a hint? Okay, then here it is: MAN of sin......man OF SIN.

I'll be waiting to hear from you. RB

: RB  Sat May 16, 2020 - 04:42:08
I fully agree that preterism is false in every form of it, partial, full, or hyper. Partial are the historical of the Amill camp, which are just as corrupt. I fall in the camp of Amill idealist that is futurist yet much different from the Premill futurist of which you belong.Actually sir, it proves your system of eschatology to be error more than the other camps. So far you have made no attempt to answer my question to you, would you like to prove that you can, or at least admit that you cannot and you need time to research this more, which at least would show that you have a noble spirit and you to be a true seeker of God's truth. By making no attempt, also shows a side of you that would be far from possessing a noble spirit as we read of in Acts 17:10,11~ concerning the Berean Christians. Let us say that he has not yet come~then again, let me ask you.... "which one MUST come first, the man of sin, or Christ to gather together us unto him?  I contend base on the word of God that the man of sin has come.

  I believe the rapture will come before the man of sin attains full power. (I believe that the man of sin, son of perdition, "that Wicked", the antichrist, & the beast from the sea will be the same man & will be indwelt by Satan himself. That's Scriptural as God Jesus said, in Rev. 3:10 - 10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. (I know He was addressing the church in Philadelphia, but His words can be applied to all Christians when the time comes.)

Let me ask you another question. What is the man of sin based on God's testimony? The key is clearly seen in the phrase "Man of sin"....need a hint? Okay, then here it is: MAN of sin......man OF SIN.

I'll be waiting to hear from you. RB

  The man of sin will be the most-evil human who will ever live. He will make Hitler & Stalin seem as naughty toddlers in comparison. He and his sidekick, the false prophet, the beast from the earth, will be so evil that, when Jesus returns, He will cast them alive into the lake of fire without any preliminaries.

  To say this man has already come is quite-imaginary.

How sick is that- robycop3's antichrist video game!

: lea  Sat May 16, 2020 - 12:01:37
How sick is that- robycop3's antichrist video game!

   Are you on drugs ?

  I didn't post any video game !

: robycop3  Sat May 16, 2020 - 06:55:59I believe the rapture will come before the man of sin attains full power.

Greetings robycop3~you by using the word " before " shows that your understanding is against God's very own testimony to us through holy men of God of old.  Sir, this ought to concern you very much if your heart truly desires to know the truth as it is in Jesus Christ. Again, God's word said:

: Paul2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3~"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

robycop3, I was taught personally just what you believe in when I first came to Christ almost fifty years ago when I sat under and learned from two of the most powerful premillennialist  (3 Resurrection know exactly whom I speaking about he being from the very same city and hearing the same men) Harold B. Sighter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_B._Sightler and Oliver B. Greene https://www.thegospelhour.org/ but quickly came to understand that their doctrines that I was taught had some serious holes in it that could not be supported by God's word~so, I soon left that camp and spent around ten years serious searching to know the truth, one that I could defend with the scriptures ALONE being my source of truth. Do I still highly respect these men, yes I do, they both loved God and his word, just they were dead wrong on many biblical truths. So, sir, I'm very familiar with your doctrine, could have a better knowledge of it than you even know it, but that is neither here or there and serves very little good between man and man, except to bring out the worst in man, which I have no desire to see from either of us.

: robycop3 on: Sat May 16, 2020 - 06:55:59(I believe that the man of sin, son of perdition, "that Wicked", the antichrist, & the beast from the sea will be the same man & will be indwelt by Satan himself. .............)

So do I, yet the Preterist's camp believes that Satan and all fallen angels were destroyed in 70 A.D. So, on this point, we would agree in part ~in part because the man of sin is NOT a single individual, but ALL men who are ruled by the spirit of Devil himself in rejecting God's word as the only authority and final voice in ALL doctrines and commandments in practical living. These men that shall come to power BOTH in the temple of God (the outward professing churches) and in the affairs of ruling this world, shall no longer be ruled by the fear of God, but by their own fleshly wisdom and their own fleshly desires that they desire to do to fulfill the evil lust that will rule all men who are not sealed with Holy Spirit of God.

The great falling away STARTED IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD which was supposed to the salt and light of this world, but somewhere around the last of the 1700's and early eighteen hundred the apostasy in the temple of God begun to pick up momentum, to where we are now two hundred years later, where the true people of God have for the most part forsaken the temple of God and have fled unto the mountains, because of the ABOMINATION that God WILL make desolate sit and reigns therein.

: robycop3 on: Sat May 16, 2020 - 06:55:59 The man of sin will be the most-evil human who will ever live. He will make Hitler & Stalin seem as naughty toddlers in comparison. He and his sidekick, the false prophet, the beast from the earth, will be so evil that, when Jesus returns, He will cast them alive into the lake of fire without any preliminaries.

There is no such doctrine as a SINGLE INDIVIDUAL yet to come, basically the Devil incarnate, which would be saying that the Devil can MATCH God is sending his SON into this world through some miracle type birth~that's borderline of blaspheming!

Sir, no man living can prove that there will be  SINGLE antichrist yet to come~what was yet to come to the apostles was the spirit of antichrist coming in GREAT NUMBERS, more so than in any time in this world's history~that will take place for a little season just before the coming of Jesus Christ to gather together the very elect from the four corners of the earth. UNLESS those days were shortened, then NO FLESH would be saved~that is, saved in a PRACTICAL SENSE by having the TRUTH for MANY false prophets shall come saying I' AM Christ, that is, saying Jesus is the Christ, yet it will be another Jesus, another spirit and another gospel that is NOT the very gospel preached by the apostles of Jesus Christ~the earth shall be filled with men living under a very strong delusion of the Devil himself! 

We are NOW living in these perilous times of the last days. Selah

RB, We are not living in perilous times as the apostles were in their generation.

Give them their credit already!  Understand what Jesus said to His audience during the 30AD -70AD period!

Keep your futuristic nonsense, uneducated, opinion for hell! Thanks again!

: RB  Mon May 18, 2020 - 05:50:10
Greetings robycop3~you by using the word " before " shows that your understanding is against God's very own testimony to us through holy men of God of old.  Sir, this ought to concern you very much if your heart truly desires to know the truth as it is in Jesus Christ. Again, God's word said: robycop3, I was taught personally just what you believe in when I first came to Christ almost fifty years ago when I sat under and learned from two of the most powerful premillennialist  (3 Resurrection know exactly whom I speaking about he being from the very same city and hearing the same men) Harold B. Sighter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_B._Sightler and Oliver B. Greene https://www.thegospelhour.org/ but quickly came to understand that their doctrines that I was taught had some serious holes in it that could not be supported by God's word~so, I soon left that camp and spent around ten years serious searching to know the truth, one that I could defend with the scriptures ALONE being my source of truth. Do I still highly respect these men, yes I do, they both loved God and his word, just they were dead wrong on many biblical truths. So, sir, I'm very familiar with your doctrine, could have a better knowledge of it than you even know it, but that is neither here or there and serves very little good between man and man, except to bring out the worst in man, which I have no desire to see from either of us. So do I, yet the Preterist's camp believes that Satan and all fallen angels were destroyed in 70 A.D. So, on this point, we would agree in part ~in part because the man of sin is NOT a single individual, but ALL men who are ruled by the spirit of Devil himself in rejecting God's word as the only authority and final voice in ALL doctrines and commandments in practical living. These men that shall come to power BOTH in the temple of God (the outward professing churches) and in the affairs of ruling this world, shall no longer be ruled by the fear of God, but by their own fleshly wisdom and their own fleshly desires that they desire to do to fulfill the evil lust that will rule all men who are not sealed with Holy Spirit of God.

The great falling away STARTED IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD which was supposed to the salt and light of this world, but somewhere around the last of the 1700's and early eighteen hundred the apostasy in the temple of God begun to pick up momentum, to where we are now two hundred years later, where the true people of God have for the most part forsaken the temple of God and have fled unto the mountains, because of the ABOMINATION that God WILL make desolate sit and reigns therein.  There is no such doctrine as a SINGLE INDIVIDUAL yet to come, basically the Devil incarnate, which would be saying that the Devil can MATCH God is sending his SON into this world through some miracle type birth~that's borderline of blaspheming!

Sir, no man living can prove that there will be  SINGLE antichrist yet to come~what was yet to come to the apostles was the spirit of antichrist coming in GREAT NUMBERS, more so than in any time in this world's history~that will take place for a little season just before the coming of Jesus Christ to gather together the very elect from the four corners of the earth. UNLESS those days were shortened, then NO FLESH would be saved~that is, saved in a PRACTICAL SENSE by having the TRUTH for MANY false prophets shall come saying I' AM Christ, that is, saying Jesus is the Christ, yet it will be another Jesus, another spirit and another gospel that is NOT the very gospel preached by the apostles of Jesus Christ~the earth shall be filled with men living under a very strong delusion of the Devil himself! 

We are NOW living in these perilous times of the last days. Selah

  There's no Scripture referring to the MEN of sin. All references to the beast/antichrist are SINGULAR. Revelation says the 'beast', not "beasts", will be cast alive into the LOF. (And "false prophet" is also singular. While there have been, are, & will be, many false prophets, those Scriptures are referring to the most-evil of all of them, who will be the antichrist's deputy.)

: robycop3  Fri May 22, 2020 - 04:48:40 There's no Scripture referring to the MEN of sin. All references to the beast/antichrist are SINGULAR. Revelation says the 'beast', not "beasts", will be cast alive into the LOF. (And "false prophet" is also singular. While there have been, are, & will be, many false prophets, those Scriptures are referring to the most-evil of all of them, who will be the antichrist's deputy.)

The man of sin does not refer to ONE particular man, but man IN PARTICULAR~who has given himself over to Satan to be used against the truth. What, or, who is the man OF SIN? For our answer, we must follow the word of God, NOT UNRIGHTEOUS MAN, who will deceive and are there to do so if the fear of God is not in that man. 

Simply put, the man of sin "IS" the man of sin! A man of righteousness IS a man who works righteousness, within the temple of God as he submits to the God of the temple. He leans not unto his own wisdom, or even trust in his wisdom, but one that glories in the wisdom of God, he comes humbly into his temple to learn from, confessing his wickedness, in thoughts and deeds.

Man of sin is a collective noun meaning not ONE PERSON but all who practice sin, practically speaking and DOCTRINALLY speaking by changing, refusing to acknowledge certain truths, or by just seeking other versions that best suite their way of living and teaching the scriptures!

: DanielDaniel 7:25~"And he (man OF SIN~RB) shall speak great words against the most High, (as though he is speaking FOR HIM-RB) and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

We use collectives nouns all of the times when referring to many, not just to one person. Man of God refers to ALL men who speak on behalf of God. Man OF war refers to ALL men who go to war. When we say the "jury is out" we are speaking not of one person but all on the jury. Even the many people who believe the man of sin is the pope used it in the same sense that we understand it~and we will add, that the pope is ONE of many man of sin, but that does not leave out many others such as the prosperity gospel thieves of our day; and millions of more that are not Catholics. 

  We see this same man in Revelation as the beast from the sea, & we see the beast from the earth, the false prophet, as his sidekick. These TWO will be cast alive directly into the LOF when Jesus returns. There's not a hint of collectiveness in any mention of that man. Daniel calls him "the prince", Paul calls him "the MAN ,not "men", of sin, the SON, not "sons" of perdition, & "that Wicked", not "those Wickeds". And Paul said HE will enter the temple. All the wicked men on earth couldn't fit into one temple !

  Nice try, but there's no collective noun indicated here !

: robycop3  Mon May 25, 2020 - 13:34:21
  We see this same man in Revelation as the beast from the sea, & we see the beast from the earth, the false prophet, as his sidekick. These TWO will be cast alive directly into the LOF when Jesus returns. There's not a hint of collectiveness in any mention of that man. Daniel calls him "the prince", Paul calls him "the MAN ,not "men", of sin, the SON, not "sons" of perdition, & "that Wicked", not "those Wickeds". And Paul said HE will enter the temple. All the wicked men on earth couldn't fit into one temple !

  Nice try, but there's no collective noun indicated here !

Sidekick? G
You have nothing of value to argue with.

The Roman armies already entered the temple and sacrificed pigs and crap and all offensive crap to the Jews.

The Jews are no longer God's "chosen people." Get that through your head and get lost!

: lea  Wed May 27, 2020 - 18:39:32
Sidekick? G
You have nothing of value to argue with.

The Roman armies already entered the temple and sacrificed pigs and crap and all offensive crap to the Jews.

  No, they didn't. They merely destroyed in it. Their leader, Titus, did NOT declare himself to be God in it, nor eas the marka the beast then issued.

The Jews are no longer God's "chosen people." Get that through your head and get lost!

Israel is still God's PECULIAR people, whether you like it or not. (Of course, individual Jews & Israelis must come to JESUS, same as anyone else.)

Peculiar?  Now your defending them from another angle?

: lea  Sat May 30, 2020 - 20:04:35
Peculiar?  Now your defending them from another angle?

"Peculiar" is the term used in Scripture.

: lea  Sat May 30, 2020 - 20:04:35
Peculiar?  Now your defending them from another angle?

  That's the Scriptural term. Some translations read "God's own possession" or "special".

: rezar  Sun Jan 17, 2010 - 20:49:06
John's view of the Great Tribulation from apocalyptic language.

Tyrone

Sun, 30 Aug 2009 11:01:00 +0000
Before we start the last study on the great tribulation let me say please do not let anyone ever tell you that any scri pture in the Bible has nothing to do with salvation. All of the Bible is about God's plan of salvation form the book of Genesis to Revelation.

People have had the desire to understand the book of Revelation but many have often given up due to the highly apocalyptic language within the book. "The book of Revelation is apocalyptic; therefore, I can never understand it." Well the truth is God never meant for the book of Revelation to be a great mystery to Christians.

The first thing one must understand about the book of Revelation is that it is a book composed almost entirely of symbols ..... symbols that a first century Jew would have found immediately recognizable. These symbols were used before in such books as Deuteronomy, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Jeremiah, Hosea, and Zechariah. They are closely associated with the book of Revelation.

For example in the Tabernacle the only light in the Holy Place would have come from the golden lampstands. We find the details for the lampstands listed in Exodus 25. And we find the symbolic use both in Zechariah 4 and Revelation 1. In the case of Revelation reference Christ is the source of the light. Zechariah used the lampstands in a similar manner, as Jehovah God is the light source.

So John would naturally borrow from their Old Testament Jewish imagery and symbols. Many of the events recorded in the Old Testament were strikingly filmier whether in reality or symbolically to the Jewish Christians of that day. Bringing those events to memory would serve to drive home the messages in Revelation.

These symbols were not selected as (fill in) by the Holy Spirit when He inspired the book, and they do not stand for just anything we may desire in our future. These symbols were not strange to John's original audience to whom the book was written. These symbols were generally understood that Revelation drew on spiritual truths and historical realities. Symbols were like flags being raised that great tribulation was coming. While those being warned would not heed it. Believers, understood these symbols as signs of victory.

John's writing in Revelation 17:1-18 is quite unique as he takes a series of pictures that when put together become a full-motion picture. John is like the photographer who, in capturing a scene, takes pictures from many different angles, that can be seen throughout the book. John will take a series of pictures and then he will move around to a different point of observation. Here John tell the same story of the great tribulation but in apocalyptic language.

We begin with John's snap shot of (Revelation 17:1-2) Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me, "Come, I will show you (the judgment) of the (great harlot) who sits on many waters, with whom the kings of the earth (committed fornication), and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication." (emphasis added)

The women here is pictured and introduced as a prostitute women. This arrangement with Roman can be seen beginning with the crucifixion of Christ. The Romans had no desire to kill Jesus. It was the wicked Jews who shouted 'Crucify him! Crucify Let his blood be on us and our children (Matthews 27:22-25). And it was the wicked Jews who said. "If you let this Man go, you are not Caesar's friend. Whoever makes himself a king speaks against Caesar." (John 19:12)

Spiritual fornication or harlotry in scri pture indicates the breaking of God's covenant, or a departure from his ways (Ezekiel 16: 6-22). The LORD said also to me in the days of Josiah the king: "Have you seen what backsliding Israel has done? She has gone up on every high mountain and under every green tree, and there played the harlot. (Jeremiah 3:6) The nation of Israel had been in covenant relationship with God for 15.000 years, and had been referred to as a women married to the Lord, had sworn faith and love in all things to her rightful husband; but as was so often the case in Old Testament apostasies, even so now in the day of her redemption and visitation, she has shamefully forsaken and rejected him in whoring after strangers. (Jeremiah 3:20 concerning Jerusalem) Surely, as a wife treacherously departs from her husband, So have you dealt treacherously with Me, O house of Israel.' says the Lord.

What is meant by she sits on many waters or lives by many waters'? This terminology is used in (Jeremiah 51:13) concerning the ancient city of Babylon were it was first applied.. There it denoted the vast expanse of influence she had in both civil and political realms. "waters" in Revelation often signifies "people" or nations instead of "H2O." (Dwelling upon many waters) denoted the broad expanse of the Babylon kingdom in the exercise of its political and civil power. Babylon was the civil king of that day. Jerusalem was to the world religiously what Babylon was politically.

John new move around to a different point of observation. So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a (woman sitting on a scarlet beast) which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. (Revelation 17:3) Here the harlot women is riding or sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

An interpretive angel appears for the express purpose of explaining the vision: "But the angel said to me, "Why did you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns." (Rev 17:7). Then in verses 9 and 10 this angel explains the vision: "Here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitting. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space."

Most evangelical scholars recognize that the seven mountains represent the famed seven hills of Rome. The recipients of Revelation lived under the rule of Rome, which was universally distinguished by its seven hills would have immediately recognizable this symbol. How could the recipients, living in the seven historical churches of Asia Minor and under Roman imperial rule, understand anything else but this geographical picture of John?

But there is an additional information involved. The seven heads have a two-fold referent. We learn also that the seven heads represent a political situation in which five kings have fallen, the sixth is, and the seventh is yet to come and will remain but a short while. It is surely no accident that Nero was the sixth emperor of Rome, who reigned after the deaths of his five predecessors and before the brief rule of the seventh emperor.

Flavius Josephus, the Jewish contemporary of John, clearly points out that Julius Caesar was the first emperor of Rome and that he was followed in succession by Augustus, Tiberius, Caius, Claudius, and Nero (Antiquities 18; 19). We discover this enumeration also in other near contemporaries of John: 4 Ezra 11 and 12; Sibylline Oracles, books 5 and 8; Barnabas, Epistle 4; Suetonius, Lives of the Twelve Caesars; and Dio Cassius' Roman History 5.

The text of Revelation says of the seven kings "five have fallen." The first five emperors are dead, when John writes. But the verse goes on to say "one is." That is, the sixth one is then reigning even as John wrote. That would be Nero Caesar, who assumed imperial power upon the death of Claudius in October, A.D. 54, and remained emperor until June, A.D. 68.

John continues: "The other is not yet come; and when he comes, he must continue a short space." When the Roman Civil Wars broke out in rebellion against him, Nero committed suicide on June 8, A.D. 68. The seventh king was "not yet come." That would be Galba, who assumed power in June, A.D. 68. But he was only to continue a "short space." His reign lasted but six months, until January 15, A.D. 69. Thus, we see that while John wrote, Nero was still alive and Galba was looming in the near future. Revelation could not have been written after June, A.D. 68, according to the internal political evidence. In this vision we discover strong evidence that Revelation was written before the death of Nero, which occurred on June 8, A.D. 68.

The woman/whore represents apostate Jerusalem and sitting on the beast means she has the political power she controls the beast. A beast is a symbol used to depict a political state, such as the lion, bear, and leopard of Daniel 7, representing the kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persian and Greece respectively.

The ten horns of the beast (17:12-17) are defined as ten kings or provincial governors who aided in the war against the Lamb Christ. verse 14. Farrar lists ten major provinces that constituted the Roman Empire in the days of Nero–namely: Italy, Achaia, Asia, Syria, Egypt, Africa, Spain, Gaul, Britain and Germany. They united with Nero in the matter of war against the Lamb, and of Christian persecution.

The interpretive angel further explains the identify the harlot woman in his vision: The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication. (Revelation 17:4) The garment of this women is the exact garment of the high priest of Israel, according to the Bible, contained specific colors:

"Now take Aaron your brother, and his sons with him, from among the children of Israel, that he may minister to Me as priest, Aaron and Aaron's sons: Nadab, Abihu, Eleazar, and Ithamar. And you shall make holy garments for Aaron your brother, for glory and for beauty. So you shall speak to all who are gifted artisans, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, that they may make Aaron's garments, to consecrate him, that he may minister to Me as priest. And these are the garments which they shall make: a breastplate, an ephod, a robe, a skillfully woven tunic, a turban, and a sash. So they shall make holy garments for Aaron your brother and his sons, that he may minister to Me as priest. "They shall take the gold, blue, purple, and scarlet thread, and the fine linen, and they shall make the ephod of gold, blue, purple, and scarlet thread, and fine woven linen, artistically worked. It shall have two shoulder straps joined at its two edges, and so it shall be joined together. And the intricately woven band of the ephod, which is on it, shall be of the same workmanship, made of gold, blue, purple, and scarlet thread, and fine woven linen. "Then you shall take two onyx stones and engrave on them the names of the sons of Israel: (Exodus 28:1-9)

The garments of the high priest include gold, purple, scarlet, and blue. This de scri ption is of the woman of (Revelation 17:4)

John now move around to a different point of observation and takes another picture that makes the harlot woman becomes ever clearer. And on her forehead a name was written: MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement. (Revelation 17:5-6)

cont'd...........

BUMP!

  Sorry, but he blew it with Nero & the kings. The kings were the kings of Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, & Greece. The one that then was, was the king (Caesar) of Rome. The 7th was the king of the Holy Roman Empire. The 8th will be the empire of the beast/antichrist, which will at first be made up of the peoples of the old Roman & HR empires.

  There's little question that the harlot riding the beast of Rev. 17 at first is the city of Rome, Italy which, in the form of the Vatican, will try to control the antichrist & his empire. However, we see the antichrist tirn on "her", which he will do soon as the RCC's usefulness to him is over.

: robycop3  Sun May 31, 2020 - 13:28:19
  Sorry, but he blew it with Nero & the kings. The kings were the kings of Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, & Greece. The one that then was, was the king (Caesar) of Rome. The 7th was the king of the Holy Roman Empire. The 8th will be the empire of the beast/antichrist, which will at first be made up of the peoples of the old Roman & HR empires.

  There's little question that the harlot riding the beast of Rev. 17 at first is the city of Rome, Italy which, in the form of the Vatican, will try to control the antichrist & his empire. However, we see the antichrist tirn on "her", which he will do soon as the RCC's usefulness to him is over.

Yes, we know, Rome was the city where the "Lord was crucified!"

What an idiot.

: lea  Sun May 31, 2020 - 15:31:00
Yes, we know, Rome was the city where the "Lord was crucified!"

  Actually, he was crucified just outside JERUSALEM.

What an idiot.

Yes, you are.

: robycop3  Sun May 31, 2020 - 17:00:48
  Actually, he was crucified just outside JERUSALEM.

Bingo!  Exactly what Rev.11 says. The harlot is NEVER Rome. Rome was heathen and couldn't backslide away from God. Israel had a symbiotic relationship with Rome for a time - until the Jews rebelled and Rome destroyed her.

The harlot riding the Beast is 1st century apostate Jerusalem.

The term "peculiar" and "holy nation" were indeed used for ancient Israel. 

But since the day that the New Covenant in Christ was launched with Christ's establishment as our deathless high priest, as children of the faith we believers are now given the same title of "a peculiar people, zealous of good works" in Titus 2:14.

My KJV has the margin note alternative for "peculiar people" as being a "purchased people", which is appropriate for ancient ethnic Israel under the Old Covenant as well as the saints under the New Covenant.

I Peter 2:9 uses the same recognizable term, calling the believers "...an holy nation, a peculiar people, that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light."

This just underscores that the true "Israel of God" has always been composed of the true worshippers who worship in spirit and in truth.  "They are not all Israel which are of Israel."

: lea  Sun May 31, 2020 - 19:55:32
Bingo!  Exactly what Rev.11 says. The harlot is NEVER Rome. Rome was heathen and couldn't backslide away from God. Israel had a symbiotic relationship with Rome for a time - until the Jews rebelled and Rome destroyed her.

The harlot riding the Beast is 1st century apostate Jerusalem.

MMRRPP !   WRONG !

  The last verse of Rev. 17 says "she" is that great city that reigns over the kings of the earth. At that time, that could only mean ROME. Jerusalem never fulfilled that role.

: robycop3  Mon Jun 01, 2020 - 04:51:07
MMRRPP !   WRONG !

  The last verse of Rev. 17 says "she" is that great city that reigns over the kings of the earth. At that time, that could only mean ROME. Jerusalem never fulfilled that role.

One should discern the prophecy correctly.
18  And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth."

The great city" is Jerusalem (Rev.11:8; 16:19; 1Pet.5:13; Jer.22:8).
She does not rule over the kings of the world, but the earth, the covenant people of God. The kings of the EARTH were Herod and the rulers of the people who gathered together against Christ and his church. (Acts 4:23-27)
Jerusalem was the capital city of Judea and reigned over all the kings and governors and rulers of the Jews.

Josephus described her by saying, "the royal city Jerusalem was supreme. and presided over all the neighboring country, as the head does over the body." In another place he referred to it as the very face and head of the whole nation." (Wars 111,iii, 5)

"The Bible is not about secular history or the cities of the world, but about God's redemptive purpose for mankind. This purpose was bound up in Jerusalem, not Rome.

The destruction of Rome had no eschatological significance, but the fall of Jerusalem did: it was an eschatological event marking the consummation of the ages. O.T. prophet and the Lord all prophesied at length about the destruction of Jerusalem. Jesus wept over Jerusalem, not Rome."~ Kurt Simmons- The Consummation of the Ages.

: lea  Mon Jun 01, 2020 - 13:44:50
One should discern the prophecy correctly.
18  And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth."

The great city" is Jerusalem (Rev.11:8; 16:19; 1Pet.5:13; Jer.22:8).
She does not rule over the kings of the world, but the earth, the covenant people of God. The kings of the EARTH were Herod and the rulers of the people who gathered together against Christ and his church. (Acts 4:23-27)
Jerusalem was the capital city of Judea and reigned over all the kings and governors and rulers of the Jews.

Josephus described her by saying, "the royal city Jerusalem was supreme. and presided over all the neighboring country, as the head does over the body." In another place he referred to it as the very face and head of the whole nation." (Wars 111,iii, 5)

"The Bible is not about secular history or the cities of the world, but about God's redemptive purpose for mankind. This purpose was bound up in Jerusalem, not Rome.

The destruction of Rome had no eschatological significance, but the fall of Jerusalem did: it was an eschatological event marking the consummation of the ages. O.T. prophet and the Lord all prophesied at length about the destruction of Jerusalem. Jesus wept over Jerusalem, not Rome."~ Kurt Simmons- The Consummation of the Ages.

  Trying to change the meaning of Scripture again ! Your silliness continues !

"Earth" is the planet we occupy, & that's what God meant in the vision John saw.

Not. The "earth" in this instance is the land - the land of Israel. Just like the 2nd beast in Rev13, it was a beast from the "earth" or "land."

Earth in Scripture is usually meant to describe a land that is being referred to in the book..

"Sea" represents Gentile nations or foreign nations. (As Beast #1)

"All the tribes of the earth" meant just that. All the tribes of the earth shall wail because of Him"

It's eyes of understanding . Caiaphas and the whole nation of the Jews would see and perceive that the nation's destruction was the Revelation of Christ in glory!

: lea  Mon Jun 01, 2020 - 20:54:57
Not. The "earth" in this instance is the land - the land of Israel. Just like the 2nd beast in Rev13, it was a beast from the "earth" or "land."

Earth in Scripture is usually meant to describe a land that is being referred to in the book..

"Sea" represents Gentile nations or foreign nations. (As Beast #1)

"All the tribes of the earth" meant just that. All the tribes of the earth shall wail because of Him"

It's eyes of understanding . Caiaphas and the whole nation of the Jews would see and perceive that the nation's destruction was the Revelation of Christ in glory!

  You have quite an imagination. But you're wrong to try to change the meaning of what GOD caused to be written. Jesus is the Savior of the WORLD, not just the Jews or Israelis. He created ALL men, and ALL living people are candeidates for salvation. And the punishment of the world will be worldwide, as will be Jesus' rule when He returns.

Robycop3, this is NOT changing the meaning of what God wrote.  Have you never read God addressing specifically the LAND OF JUDAH in Jer. 22:29?  He says "O EARTH, EARTH, EARTH hear the word of the Lord."  Both Coniah and his mother would not be allowed to return to THE LAND where they were born, but would die in exile in another country.  This is only one of multiple examples where the word "EARTH" or "LAND" in the OT and NT refer to the promised land of Israel specifically. 

When scripture wants to convey the idea of a worldwide event, it uses the Greek words "oikoumenes" or "kosmos" which encompass more than just the more limited spaces of the land of Canaan (which uses the word "ge").

We have already proved that this WORLDWIDE tribulation was "ABOUT TO COME UPON THE WHOLE HABITABLE WORLD" SOON AFTER the time John was writing Rev. 3:10.

: 3 Resurrections  Tue Jun 02, 2020 - 08:08:36


We have already proved that this WORLDWIDE tribulation was "ABOUT TO COME UPON THE WHOLE HABITABLE WORLD" SOON AFTER the time John was writing Rev. 3:10.

::doh:: ::frown:: ::doh::

You have attempted to prove your erroneous translations. And failed.

The temple destruction has nothing to do with what John was shown.

Uhh, Rella, I'm only quoting from the YLT when I write that this time of tribulation was "ABOUT TO COME UPON THE WHOLE HABITABLE WORLD...".  No less than 7 other translations besides the YLT use the very same terms of imminence for this worldwide tribulation that was "ABOUT TO COME" upon the whole world as John was writing Revelation.  Are they ALL "erroneous translations"? 

I should ask, I suppose, if you are as averse to using the original languages as RB.  I know he avoids referring to Greek and Hebrew as a "corruption" contrary to the KJV, which he uses exclusively.  Are you of the same mind? 

Those who ignore the use of the Greek term "mello" in verses like Rev. 3:10 inevitably miss the message telling just how soon those events would transpire.  To you, I suppose God never puts a specific time marker on any message He conveys.  We'll just have to disagree on that, since I see Him putting time markers all over the place throughout the scriptures, both OT and NT. 

And if you compare the Zechariah text of the take-down of Jerusalem and Judah in the "siege" that the prophet describes, the verses about the tribes looking on the returning Christ that they had once pierced is common to both Zechariah 12:10 and Revelation 1:7.   How you can say that Revelation does not describe the AD 70 take-down of the "great city" Jerusalem is beyond me, because these two verses and prophets , Zechariah and John, were speaking of the same occasion.

  However, the great trib has not yet happened.

: robycop3  Wed Jun 03, 2020 - 04:41:12
  However, the great trib has not yet happened.

Reported you to moderators for-
Trolling with hostility. 

: lea  Wed Jun 03, 2020 - 11:08:38
Reported you to moderators for-
Trolling with hostility.

And that is really the pot calling the kettle.

Sheeeeesh

: 3 Resurrections  Tue Jun 02, 2020 - 15:16:09
Uhh, Rella, I'm only quoting from the YLT when I write that this time of tribulation was "ABOUT TO COME UPON THE WHOLE HABITABLE WORLD...".  No less than 7 other translations besides the YLT use the very same terms of imminence for this worldwide tribulation that was "ABOUT TO COME" upon the whole world as John was writing Revelation.  Are they ALL "erroneous translations"? 


That would depend on who copied whom.....

Never said they were wrong.I am saying your understanding of what they say is wrong because About to come upon is an apt description from Adam to our day
because you cannot relate time in God's world...who is the one instructing either through revelation, inspiration or Jesus in person through God instructing him to relate things...

In God time we have been alive as mankind just a very short time.

I should ask, I suppose, if you are as averse to using the original languages as RB.  I know he avoids referring to Greek and Hebrew as a "corruption" contrary to the KJV, which he uses exclusively.  Are you of the same mind? 

Absolutely not. If you have ever read anything in the theological debates under name Rella or my AKA seekingHiswisdom you would know how many times I have gone back to my Greek interlinear as well as any of these. I do not like modern
translations. Period.

I use King Jimmy's simply because that is one that most all have readsome of at one time or another... I sometimeswill go with NKJV.

In addition I am constantly referencing:  among others like the Geneva.... I just happen to have these bookmarked.

ARAMAIC SCRIPTURES
https://www.thearamaicscriptures.com/matthews-gospel.html

CODEX SINAITICUS

http://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/manuscript.aspx?book=33&chapter=1&lid=en&side=r&zoomSli
CODEX VATICANUS


HEBREW ENGLISH     (Gen 7)
Genesis 7 / Hebrew - English Bible / Mechon-Mamre

COMPLETE JEWISH BIBLE
https://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Complete-Jewish-Bible-CJB/#booklist

DAKE BIBLE pre ADAMIC
http://dakereader.proboards.com/thread/35

FULL TEXT OF GENESIS A TRANSLATED
https://archive.org/stream/genesisa15612gut/15612.txt

GENESIS B
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_B


GREEK ENGLISH INTERLINEAR
https://www.logosapostolic.org/bibles/interlinear_nt.htm used more then the others by far.


MATTHEW 1 PARALLEL CHAPTERS
https://biblehub.com/matthew/1.htm


Those who ignore the use of the Greek term "mello" in verses like Rev. 3:10 inevitably miss the message telling just how soon those events would transpire.

Rev 3:10  Greek/English  interlinear says ...
Because you have kept the word of the endurance of me, I also will keep you from the hour of the trial the one being about to come upon the habitable whole world,
to test those dwelling on earth.
https://www.logosapostolic.org/interlinear-nt/revelation/03.htm

Not that matters, but I have a lineage traced back to biblical times to Irleand and Finland.That would be incorporated in the habitable whole world I think.

To you, I suppose God never puts a specific time marker on any message He conveys.  We'll just have to disagree on that, since I see Him putting time markers all over the place throughout the scriptures, both OT and NT. 

We disagree. Yes.

And if you compare the Zechariah text of the take-down of Jerusalem and Judah in the "siege" that the prophet describes, the verses about the tribes looking on the returning Christ that they had once pierced is common to both Zechariah 12:10 and Revelation 1:7.   How you can say that Revelation does not describe the AD 70 take-down of the "great city" Jerusalem is beyond me, because these two verses and prophets , Zechariah and John, were speaking of the same occasion.

I seeZechariah 12:10 nkjv saying
10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

And Rev 1:7 nlkv saying

Revelation 1:7 New King James Version (NKJV)
7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

I simply do not see Zech supporting an appearance of Jesus here at all. Spiritually or otherwise. For if that were to have happened they would not be grieving for him  they would have been rejoicing. Not missing him.

As to Rev. While there is a similarity here they are not grieving for Him, the tribes of the earth will be in mourning because of Him. Because they will know what they have done and lost.

Now I have a question for you. You believe in 3 resurections?

Without biblical reference can you simply say why? And can you explain, if 70ADwere true, what is the reason for continuing life as has been after 70AD?

Rella posted;

Revelation 1:7 New King James Version (NKJV)
7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

I simply do not see Zech supporting an appearance of Jesus here at all. Spiritually or otherwise. For if that were to have happened they would not be grieving for him  they would have been rejoicing. Not missing him.

As to Rev. While there is a similarity here they are not grieving for Him, the tribes of the earth will be in mourning because of Him. Because they will know what they have done and lost.

Don't see it?  Read it again. It even ends with God saying He will remove the evil spirits from the land in Zechariah.  How cool, no evil spirits around today!

Him Whom They Have Pierced

10 "And zI will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and zpleas for mercy, so that, awhen they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, bthey shall mourn for him, cas one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn. 11 oOn that day dthe mourning in Jerusalem will be as great eas the mourning for Hadad-rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 The land shall mourn, feach family1 by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of gNathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; 13 the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of hthe Shimeites by itself, and their wives by themselves; 14 and all the families that are left, each by itself, and their wives by themselves.

13 i"On that day there shall be ja fountain opened for the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and uncleanness.

Idolatry Cut Off

2 "And ion that day, declares the Lord of hosts, kI will cut off the names of the idols from the land, so that lthey shall be remembered no more. And also mI will remove from the land the prophets and the spirit of uncleanness.

  There are LOTS of evil spirits around today. The prevalence of sin is the proof.

: robycop3  Thu Jun 04, 2020 - 17:35:36
  There are LOTS of evil spirits around today. The prevalence of sin is the proof.

I do not disagree that there are evil people in the world.  But that's not the same as an evil spirit lurking around literally as it was in Christ's day in the first century.  God said he would remove them and I believe it.

It's the same idea with Satan. In the first century AD, the devil roamed like a roaring lion. Jesus even prayed for Peter that he wouldn't be sifted like wheat by Satan. But God soon crushed Satan under his feet in AD70.
His memory or influence may be around. But evil people do act like devils themselves with evil actions.

Hi Rella,

You asked a question at the close of your reply regarding the reason and purpose of life on earth post-AD 70.  It is NOT "life as usual" now after AD 70, because, as lea has also brought up, Zechariah 13:2 said that all the "unclean spirits" were going to "pass out of the land". This getting rid of all unclean spirits from the Satanic realm was included in Zechariah 12-14's prophesied list of about 16 things that were all scheduled to happen "IN THAT DAY".

You asked for a simple explanation of why I believe 3 resurrections are pictured in scripture.  I believe the pattern of the 3 required harvest feast celebrations under Mosaic law (Passover, Pentecost, and the Feast of Tabernacles) was the simplest way God could portray His intentions for 3 resurrections that would harvest the bodies of His saints in 3 stages from the dust of the grave. 

Even a very young Israelite child could see and understand the similarity between a resurrected human body and the sprouting of a buried seed in their father's fields.  The substance of each planted seed (just like the substance of a dead human body) would be subsumed into the sprouting seed that would be harvested when ripened.  There was great rejoicing in Israel during the 3 harvests from the fields (just like God the "husbandman" would rejoice in the 3 "harvests" of the bodies of His saints, in 3 resurrections timed to occur at the very same seasons of the year). 

We know without question that Christ the Firstfruits and the Matt. 27:52-53 saints were  raised to life together during the Passover week celebration (AD 33).  This Matt. 27 group of resurrected saints fulfilled the symbolism of the "sheaf handful" of barley offered in the temple as the token handful of Firstfruits - a symbol representing the even greater wheat harvest soon to come at Pentecost. 

Significantly, along with that "sheaf handful" that represented the Firstfruits of the barley harvest, a SINGLE MALE LAMB of the first year was also offered in the Temple at the SAME TIME (Lev. 23:12).  This was a picture of Christ the Firstfruits as the spotless Lamb of God rising from the dead along with the other Firstfruits (144,000 from the Jewish tribes, coming from the graves around Jerusalem, as Matt. 27:52-53 tells us).

Because every detail between Christ and the  "First Resurrection" in AD 33 matches the OT Passover ceremonial rites so beautifully and precisely, there is a definite purpose for believing that the symbolism of the other two harvest feast celebrations would likewise follow suit with two more bodily resurrections to follow at those specific times of the year later down the road in history. 

Sure enough, Daniel 12:11-13's prediction of a resurrection on the very specific 1,335th day falls on Pentecost Day in AD 70.   And since Zechariah 14:16-19 specifically mentions ONLY the last, 3rd, remaining harvest feast celebration (the Feast of Tabernacles) to be remembered after Jerusalem's AD 70 siege he had just predicted in Zech. 12-14, then THAT time of year will be the occasion for the final 3rd resurrection for us in our future. 

Every saint gets their promised inheritance of a resurrected, incorruptible body standing in God's presence; just not all at the same time.  This is the "hope" that we as living saints have today, and is the reason for history continuing after AD 70.  The complete picture of a full, Israelite agricultural year of "harvests" will not be finished until we ourselves are "harvested" in the final 3rd resurrection.

: lea  Thu Jun 04, 2020 - 17:50:46
I do not disagree that there are evil people in the world.  But that's not the same as an evil spirit lurking around literally as it was in Christ's day in the first century.  God said he would remove them and I believe it.

It's the same idea with Satan. In the first century AD, the devil roamed like a roaring lion. Jesus even prayed for Peter that he wouldn't be sifted like wheat by Satan. But God soon crushed Satan under his feet in AD70.
His memory or influence may be around. But evil people do act like devils themselves with evil actions.

  Satan & evil spirits are very-much around. I believe my late dad when he said Hitler had a demon that left him when France fell. And again, the prevalence of sin is all the proof necessary to show Satan is still around.

: robycop3  Fri Jun 05, 2020 - 04:48:55
  Satan & evil spirits are very-much around. I believe my late dad when he said Hitler had a demon that left him when France fell. And again, the prevalence of sin is all the proof necessary to show Satan is still around.

I have peace about Satan being powerless in the Lake of Fire.  We do not have an accuser before God anymore.  Something against me I call the enemy because he's not able to be a deceiver now-
as he was in the first century AD.

My attitude is that I trample on snakes and scorpions if needed.

Evil people like Hitler, Stalin, are just that.  Perhaps they identified with the devil in the LOF, raising its ugly head while being tortured all the while by God.

: lea  Fri Jun 05, 2020 - 15:28:06
I have peace about Satan being powerless in the Lake of Fire.  We do not have an accuser before God anymore.  Something against me I call the enemy because he's not able to be a deceiver now-
as he was in the first century AD.

My attitude is that I trample on snakes and scorpions if needed.

Evil people like Hitler, Stalin, are just that.  Perhaps they identified with the devil in the LOF, raising its ugly head while being tortured all the while by God.

  Satan is NOT in the LOF yet. He has NOT yet been banished to the abyss for 1K years. He's still roaming the earth as a roaring lion, looking for people like YOU to become in thrall to his false doctrines, to the point where you don't believe God's word where it's "inconvenient" for your pret silliness.

 Prove it!

I haven't literally seen any devils around!  Show me one  ::playingguitar:: 

: lea  Fri Jun 05, 2020 - 17:44:45
Prove it!

I haven't literally seen any devils around!  Show me one  ::playingguitar::

SURE, when you show me an angel...

: rezar  Sun Jan 17, 2010 - 20:49:06


What is meant by she sits on many waters or lives by many waters'? This terminology is used in (Jeremiah 51:13) concerning the ancient city of Babylon were it was first applied.. There it denoted the vast expanse of influence she had in both civil and political realms. "waters" in Revelation often signifies "people" or nations instead of "H2O." (Dwelling upon many waters) denoted the broad expanse of the Babylon kingdom in the exercise of its political and civil power. Babylon was the civil king of that day. Jerusalem was to the world religiously what Babylon was politically.

NOBODY, repeat nobody really cares about Biblical interpretation of Revelation - or any other book of the Bible, especially Christians.

Case in point is the skewed interpretation presented in the leading post.   The question is asked "what is meant by she sits on many waters"?  This is not a reference to Babylon at this point in scripture. 

The Bible interprets itself, if the reader is so inclined to discover the meaning God intended to convey.

Then the angel said to me, "The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages. - Revelation 17:15

In Revelation 13 a beast rises out of many waters - which according to Revelation 17 is many peoples.  This tells us two things primarily - that the beast isn't a person and that the sea is a huge number of people.  In other words, the sea beast is either an organization, religious system or nation.   Other entries in Revelation identifies the beast with religious observance.  Its not that difficult to understand, providing one doesn't have an agenda to twist scripture in the first place.

Most "teaching" about the End Times rests upon Protestant novelizations and Roman Catholic doctrine.

Three good examples are denial of the LAW, the Hal Lindsay series and the Rapture doctrine.

- Biblically illiterate Christians deny the Biblical principle that apart from the LAW one cannot be saved. 
     Instead they falsely assert Christ destroyed the LAW when in fact He did not.  (Matthew 5:17)  Jesus came to destroy SIN, not the LAW. 
     Consequently most churches now exist in a state of licentiousness and are proud of it.
     Which of the 10 commandments can one break and still please God?

- Lindsay is an opportunist who capitalizes on fear mongering and religious pride.  He's made a lot of money in the god business.

- The rapture doctrine has its roots in Roman Catholic attempts to subvert the protestant reformation. 

The rapture doctrine was originally introduced by Francisco Ribera in a 1590 publication that attempted to refute Martin Luther's assertions to support the Protestant Reformation.  In the mid-19th century it was reintroduced by John Nelson Darby , a known consort of witches, to gullible and intellectually shallow American protestants.  In both examples, brain dead Christians absolutely refuse to explore the history of these arguments as well as the illogic and almost total subversion of Biblical intent.  They even assert that one isn't a Christian if one refuses to accept Catholic (rapture) doctrine, Lindsay's imaginary predictions and rejection of the LAW, rather than the blood of Christ.   It isn't about the cross, boys and girls.  Its about church membership (a Catholic doctrine, btw).

I can go on and on, but what is the purpose?  Protestant fanatics would rather support Catholic doctrine than study the Bible to understand what it really says - THAT THE BEAST IS THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH and the leader who suffers a fatal head wound is the Pope.   

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

PS the book of Daniel says the organization in question would utter blaspheme against God.  Blaspheme is the act of claiming to BE God.  Consider the words of the Vatican itself.  How clear does it have to get?

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in heaven and earth." - Barclay Cap. XXVII, p. 218. Cities Petrus Bertrandus, Pius V. 

In 1798 the French dictator Napoleon entered the city of Rome and arrested the Pope.  The Pope died two years later in prison.  Napoleon also seized Catholic property in Rome.  Thus for many years the Catholic church continued without a head or capital city - the fatal head wound described in Revelation.  In 1929 the Italian dictator Benito Mussolini restored over a hundred acres of real estate in the city of Rome to the Catholic church and re-established the Pope as the head of the Catholic church.   The fatal head wound was healed - also according to Revelation.  The whole world marveled at this turn of events and the story was carried widely in newspapers and magazines.

History affirms the prophecies of the Bible.  Believe it or not, but if you're a post-modern Christian you probably won't believe it.

: Choir Loft  Fri Jun 12, 2020 - 08:04:01
NOBODY, repeat nobody really cares about Biblical interpretation of Revelation - or any other book of the Bible, especially Christians.

I do. But then I can now add you to make it 9 with your comment, thank you. Wait I think you are in the 8 already....

If no one really cares about Biblical interpretation or any other book of the bible...

Case in point is the skewed interpretation presented in the leading post.   The question is asked "what is meant by she sits on many waters"?  This is not a reference to Babylon at this point in scripture. 

The Bible interprets itself, if the reader is so inclined to discover the meaning God intended to convey.

Why would one not want to interpret the meaning God intended to convey.

If God did not intend people to understand then why inspire it in the first place?

One thing certain is that God has not inspired any post 1st century man to understand anything... including you... or there would not be all the debates

Then the angel said to me, "The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages. - Revelation 17:15

In Revelation 13 a beast rises out of many waters - which according to Revelation 17 is many peoples.  This tells us two things primarily - that the beast isn't a person and that the sea is a huge number of people.  In other words, the sea beast is either an organization, religious system or nation.   Other entries in Revelation identifies the beast with religious observance.  Its not that difficult to understand, providing one doesn't have an agenda to twist scripture in the first place.

Most "teaching" about the End Times rests upon Protestant novelizations and Roman Catholic doctrine.

Can I assume you do not believe there will ever be an end? Maybe you believe, if there is to be an end, when the time runs out
it will go dark and a banner across the world will read... "And that's all there is folks".

Three good examples are denial of the LAW, the Hal Lindsay series and the Rapture doctrine.

Agreed on denial of the LAW... Just wish it was so.  What is this Hal Lindsay series? Rapture doctrine... A prime example of people interpreting the bible for themselves.

- Biblically illiterate Christians deny the Biblical principle that apart from the LAW one cannot be saved. 
     Instead they falsely assert Christ destroyed the LAW when in fact He did not.  (Matthew 5:17)  Jesus came to destroy SIN, not the LAW. 
     Consequently most churches now exist in a state of licentiousness and are proud of it.
     Which of the 10 commandments can one break and still please God?

- Lindsay is an opportunist who capitalizes on fear mongering and religious pride.  He's made a lot of money in the god business.

- The rapture doctrine has its roots in Roman Catholic attempts to subvert the protestant reformation. 

The rapture doctrine was originally introduced by Francisco Ribera in a 1590 publication that attempted to refute Martin Luther's assertions to support the Protestant Reformation.  In the mid-19th century it was reintroduced by John Nelson Darby , a known consort of witches, to gullible and intellectually shallow American protestants.  In both examples, brain dead Christians absolutely refuse to explore the history of these arguments as well as the illogic and almost total subversion of Biblical intent.  They even assert that one isn't a Christian if one refuses to accept Catholic (rapture) doctrine, Lindsay's imaginary predictions and rejection of the LAW, rather than the blood of Christ.   It isn't about the cross, boys and girls.  Its about church membership (a Catholic doctrine, btw).

I can go on and on, but what is the purpose?  Protestant fanatics would rather support Catholic doctrine than study the Bible to understand what it really says - THAT THE BEAST IS THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH and the leader who suffers a fatal head wound is the Pope.   

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

PS the book of Daniel says the organization in question would utter blaspheme against God.  Blaspheme is the act of claiming to BE God.  Consider the words of the Vatican itself.  How clear does it have to get?

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in heaven and earth." - Barclay Cap. XXVII, p. 218. Cities Petrus Bertrandus, Pius V. 

In 1798 the French dictator Napoleon entered the city of Rome and arrested the Pope.  The Pope died two years later in prison.  Napoleon also seized Catholic property in Rome.  Thus for many years the Catholic church continued without a head or capital city - the fatal head wound described in Revelation.  In 1929 the Italian dictator Benito Mussolini restored over a hundred acres of real estate in the city of Rome to the Catholic church and re-established the Pope as the head of the Catholic church.   The fatal head wound was healed - also according to Revelation.  The whole world marveled at this turn of events and the story was carried widely in newspapers and magazines.

History affirms the prophecies of the Bible.  Believe it or not, but if you're a post-modern Christian you probably won't believe it.

Ergo: The perfect solution and the only reasonable one would be destroy all bibles. Destroy all churches and preachers. We have NO NEED to know.
And everyone live only by Mathew 6:6  ::tippinghat::

  The "fatal head wound" being Napoleon's seizure of the pope ia a SDA notion, as they believe the papacy is the antichrist. (Falsely, of course!) The AC will be ONE MAN,not a series of men.

: robycop3  Fri Jun 12, 2020 - 17:18:56
  The "fatal head wound" being Napoleon's seizure of the pope ia a SDA notion, as they believe the papacy is the antichrist. (Falsely, of course!) The AC will be ONE MAN,not a series of men.

I am not SDA.

I do not believe a series of men would be the anti-Christ. I do believe, without wavering doubt that when the time comes, the man sitting in that role ... the one we call Pope... will be the anti-Christ, or part of the anti-Christs inner group.

You cannot read of all that Frankie has said in recent years and doubt this is not
a man with an alternate agenda,and the promotion of Christianity is not high on his list.... from things that he has said and documented it would appear that Christianity may not really be on his list except as is necessary to keep him seated in Rome.

: robycop3  Fri Jun 12, 2020 - 17:18:56
  The "fatal head wound" being Napoleon's seizure of the pope ia a SDA notion, as they believe the papacy is the antichrist. (Falsely, of course!) The AC will be ONE MAN,not a series of men.

Your knowledge of history regarding this point is seriously deficient. The papacy being identified as the system of AC, and the pope himself being AC, goes back to at least the eleventh or twelfth centuries. It has been believed by Protestants ever since. Though today most have abandoned this truth, as is necessary of course, in order for that system to be reestablished by the healing of its deadly wound. The following link provides an historical outline of Historicists views on the matter far more in touch with reality than your own narrow view.

https://historicist.info/articles/2beasts.htm

The final AC will be Satan himself.

1Jn 2:18  Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

1Jn 4:2  Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2Jn 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it. 7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. 9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

John identifies some of the traits of the spirit of AC for us. Most interestingly, he states in 1Jn 2:19 that they, not he went out from us while referring to AC, us being the true church no doubt. Therefore the AC power or spirit in this world was once attached to authentic Christianity but went out or departed from the same. The RC prides itself on being able to trace its roots back to the beginning of Christianity. Yet so very many throughout history have pointed out that her doctrines are not biblical or in line with certain basics of the gospel.

1Jn 4:2 identifies AC as denying that Jesus Christ came in the flesh, our flesh. The false Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, completely separates Christ from humanity in that neither His Father or mother were anything like the rest of us. Yet the scriptures testify that our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was born of the seed Abraham and David according to the flesh. 2Jn 1:7 addresses this doctrine of Christ in the flesh as well. 2Jn 1:6 speaks of walking after Christs or God's commandments, while the church of Rome is the only institution which actually claims to have changed one of God's commandments, and has altered another as everyone knows to allow for praying to the saints.

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked..............................
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. 24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

Who is a liar and AC, but those who deny Jesus Christ and His Father by denying that He came in our flesh, and those who refuse to walk in the commandments of God. The church of Rome fits both of these criteria. Therefore have Protestants identified her as the system of AC for many centuries now, and her pope as an AC also.

  Sportzz fanzz, it's possible a pope might be the 'beast from the earth', the miracle-working false prophet, the sidekick of the AC. But the AC himself will be ONE MAN, who won't acknowledge any god but himself. (Yes, there have been, & are many ACs, but there'll be one who will be the worst of all.)

  As I've said, there have been many ACs since Christ was here, but one will be worse than all the others put together. This will be the coming world ruler.

  The history of mens' believing the AC is the line of popes is as the long history of mens' believing the earth is flat - simply WRONG. Scripture points to ONE MAN.

  As I said earlier, the beast from the sea in Rev. 17 represents both that man & his empire. The RCC will try to control him & it, but he will turn on it. This empire will be wracked by the great trib, but will go on til Jesus returns & disposes of that empire & the men who rule it.

  The world did NOT marvel over the restoration of the papacy to Rome in 1814, & certainly didn't worship the pope(Pius VII) then. That fact alone rules out the "papacy/head wound thingie".

 

: robycop3  Sun Jun 14, 2020 - 11:51:32
  Sportzz fanzz, it's possible a pope might be the 'beast from the earth', the miracle-working false prophet, the sidekick of the AC. But the AC himself will be ONE MAN, who won't acknowledge any god but himself. (Yes, there have been, & are many ACs, but there'll be one who will be the worst of all.)

  As I've said, there have been many ACs since Christ was here, but one will be worse than all the others put together. This will be the coming world ruler.

  The history of mens' believing the AC is the line of popes is as the long history of mens' believing the earth is flat - simply WRONG. Scripture points to ONE MAN.

  As I said earlier, the beast from the sea in Rev. 17 represents both that man & his empire. The RCC will try to control him & it, but he will turn on it. This empire will be wracked by the great trib, but will go on til Jesus returns & disposes of that empire & the men who rule it.

  The world did NOT marvel over the restoration of the papacy to Rome in 1814, & certainly didn't worship the pope(Pius VII) then. That fact alone rules out the "papacy/head wound thingie".

Nunca, nada, off course.  Don't blame it on the RCC . They are pro-Christ.   

Come up with something more original please!

: lea  Sun Jun 14, 2020 - 15:42:12
Nunca, nada, off course.  Don't blame it on the RCC . They are pro-Christ.   

Come up with something more original please!

No,nothing can be more original then your claim the AC will not be.
It is all we continually hear  from you and that is because you believe in error, that
he already was and was handled.

As for the RCC being pro-Christ.NOT Pope Frankie... He is, after all the one who said having a personal relationship with Jesus was dangerous.

Do I need to post that link, yet again.... I am sure you have read it each time I  have posted it over the past. But that should not worry you cause NO ONE can have a personal relationship with Jesus after 70AD, correct?

: Rella  Sun Jun 14, 2020 - 16:18:52
No,nothing can be more original then your claim the AC will not be.
It is all we continually hear  from you and that is because you believe in error, that
he already was and was handled.

As for the RCC being pro-Christ.NOT Pope Frankie... He is, after all the one who said having a personal relationship with Jesus was dangerous.

Do I need to post that link, yet again.... I am sure you have read it each time I  have posted it over the past. But that should not worry you cause NO ONE can have a personal relationship with Jesus after 70AD, correct?

I wasn't even replying to you, but you seem to make sure your voice is on every thread here anyway.

But that should not worry you cause NO ONE can have a personal relationship with Jesus after 70AD, correct?

Is something wrong with you? Are you that ignorant to imply even that question or just trying to compete with me again?

: lea  Sun Jun 14, 2020 - 17:46:27

I wasn't even replying to you, but you seem to make sure your voice is on every thread here anyway.
Is something wrong with you? Are you that ignorant to imply even that question or just trying to compete with me again?

You are the one who said it was completed in 70AD. You have been saying that forever. Jesus came, and went,and it was finished...

Therefore, no one can have a personal relationship with him because it is basically settled ... surly you agree with that. You have been basically suggesting all personal relationships were completed in 70AD when the end came.... And we,
well I am not sure what we are,but we who were born after 70 AD have a different role....

I have asked about this before but you have ignored.

The pope on the other hand, who is all about the future coming,and future one world order, does say it is dangerous to have a personal relationship with Jesus.

So, if it  was completed... this personal relationship with Jesus in 70AD, the pope is wrong... and should not worry you or anyone.

At least that is the way YOU sound when you go all postal in your preterism talking.

But give yourself a congratulatory pat on the back.

I am not trying  to compete with you at all. I only popped in briefly because it annoys you. I only debate those with the intelligence to be able to argue back with a reasonable amount of knowledge.

So... I am very happy and pleased to let you know that I will not reply to you again, or in any thread as you lack the ability to understand what is being said

And anyway.... Preterism is soooooooo boring  ::sleepingsoundly::

There are so many more topics that are of interest in the Bible that can actually be proved.

: robycop3  Sun Jun 14, 2020 - 11:51:32
  Sportzz fanzz, it's possible a pope might be the 'beast from the earth', the miracle-working false prophet, the sidekick of the AC. But the AC himself will be ONE MAN, who won't acknowledge any god but himself. (Yes, there have been, & are many ACs, but there'll be one who will be the worst of all.)

  As I've said, there have been many ACs since Christ was here, but one will be worse than all the others put together. This will be the coming world ruler.

  The history of mens' believing the AC is the line of popes is as the long history of mens' believing the earth is flat - simply WRONG. Scripture points to ONE MAN.

  As I said earlier, the beast from the sea in Rev. 17 represents both that man & his empire. The RCC will try to control him & it, but he will turn on it. This empire will be wracked by the great trib, but will go on til Jesus returns & disposes of that empire & the men who rule it.

  The world did NOT marvel over the restoration of the papacy to Rome in 1814, & certainly didn't worship the pope(Pius VII) then. That fact alone rules out the "papacy/head wound thingie".

Your seem to contradict yourself in your above post. Are there many AC's in the world as the Apostle John testified, or is there only one at the end. It seems quite obvious to me that both are biblical.

You are of course entitled to your own opinion concerning the papacy and a system of antichrist. Tell me, do you believe those Christinas of the past who were persecuted, imprisoned, tortured, murdered, and or burned at the stake by the papacy in the name of Christ, wrong for believing it was antichrist?
What more would an institution have to do, before you would consider it to be antichrist?

: Amo  Mon Jun 15, 2020 - 08:44:16
Your seem to contradict yourself in your above post. Are there many AC's in the world as the Apostle John testified, or is there only one at the end. It seems quite obvious to me that both are biblical.

You are of course entitled to your own opinion concerning the papacy and a system of antichrist. Tell me, do you believe those Christinas of the past who were persecuted, imprisoned, tortured, murdered, and or burned at the stake by the papacy in the name of Christ, wrong for believing it was antichrist?
What more would an institution have to do, before you would consider it to be antichrist?

  Anyone not FOR Christ is ANTIChrist. However, there will be one man who will be the most-evil person who will ever live, who will be indwelt by Satan himself, who will rule almost all the world, being so evil that he's cast alive directly into the lake of fire without any further judgment.

  The papacy has been antichrist, but it does not, nor will it again, have the power it once had.  You, there are, & have been many antichrists, but the one mentioned by Daniel, Paul, & Revelation will be the worst of all, making all the others seem as naughty toddlers in comparison.

: Amo  Mon Jun 15, 2020 - 08:44:16
Your seem to contradict yourself in your above post. Are there many AC's in the world as the Apostle John testified, or is there only one at the end. It seems quite obvious to me that both are biblical.

You are of course entitled to your own opinion concerning the papacy and a system of antichrist. Tell me, do you believe those Christinas of the past who were persecuted, imprisoned, tortured, murdered, and or burned at the stake by the papacy in the name of Christ, wrong for believing it was antichrist?
What more would an institution have to do, before you would consider it to be antichrist?

If I may comment here, I see and understand both.

Many anti-Christs is true as there would of necessity always be a following of the Satanic demonic ways that Satan brought to earth . This is not limited to lay people who refuse the Gift God gave to us in the shed blood of Jesus.

But extends into all forms of religious workers and even clergy... and does not escape the Papacy down through the ages, by any means.

Example:
That title of anti-Christ should extend to even Mother Teresa.

https://www.christian-faith.com/did-mother-theresa-believe-in-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ/

"If in coming face to face with God we accept Him in our lives, then we are converting. We become a better Hindu, a better Muslim, a better Catholic, a better whatever we are. ... What God is in your mind you must accept."

She did not believe a=in Jesus as Savior. She and all Catholics are never presented with the salvation message the same as Protestants are. She believed in salvation through the sacraments of the church, and her being a Catholic.

Pope Francis also is an anti-Christ especially when he said

https://www.truthandaction.org/pope-francis-a-personal-relationship-with-jesus-is-harmful-and-dangerous/3/

"Pope Francis shared in a recent sermon in front of crowds of cheering liberal Catholics that having a "personal relationship" with Jesus was "harmful and dangerous".

"Sometimes you may hear people say "I believe in God, in Jesus, but the church, I do not care" How many times have we heard this? This is wrong. There are those who believe you can have a personal, direct, and immediate relationship with Jesus Christ outside of the communion and mediation of the church.These temptations are dangerous and harmful. They are in the words of the great Pope Paul V "absurd dichotomies"

It is true that journeying together can be challenging and sometimes it can be tiring. It may be that some brother or sister (in the church) makes us face a problem, or scandalize us.

But the Lord entrusted his message of salvation to humans, all of us, as witnesses; and in our brothers and sisters in Christ, with their gifts and limit
**************

And so are all others who are in opposition to what we are taught in the four corners of God's Holy words.

So the system of anti-Christ is in place and has been from the moment Eve took a bite out of that dang fruit. (Man do I want to smack her)

But there will be a coming singular anti Christ. We could possibly refer to him as the head over all the little anti-Christs just as Jesus is the head over all true Christians.

Daniel calls him  in Daniel 11 :36 a king.  ( see Daniel 11: 36-39)

A singular entity. Not a system.

Could this be a POPE?  I say certainly yes.

Could this even be Pope Francis? Um... with out question when you have the head of the Roman Catholic Church
in 9-25-2015 , in New York addressing the UN

Pope to U.N. Assembly: I come "in my own name"
In his address to the United Nations General Assembly on September 25, 2015 in New York, Pope Francis chose not to mention the name of Jesus Christ.  Rather, he addressed the assembled nations "in his own name".

Below is the opening statement of the speech of the Pope:

Following a tradition by which I feel honored, the Secretary General of the United Nations has invited the Pope to address this distinguished assembly of nations.  In my own name, and that of the entire Catholic community, I wish to express to you, Mr Ban Ki-moon, my heartfelt gratitude.

The name of Jesus was never mentioned during the entire speech.  In his subsequent addresses to the U.S. Congress, as well as in the White House, the name of Jesus still was not mentioned. Following the speech, many Catholic commentators pointed out that the Pope speaks in the name of Jesus, and should therefore explicitly invoke his name in order to direct national and world leaders to the light of Christ and His teaching.

https://veritas-vincit-international.org/2017/06/11/pope-to-u-n-assembly-i-come-in-my-own-name/

Francis dropped the title of vicar

https://jonsnewplace.wordpress.com/2020/04/04/pope-francis-drops-title-vicar-of-christ-assumes-power-as-jorge-mario-bergoglio-in-his-own-name-fulfilling-john-543-prophecy-of-antichrist/

Why? Because his is of the anti-Christ group and IMO could well rise up soon as the declared anti-Christ for he is in prime position to dictate through out the world.... He want a one world order... It is both

In any event.... Boys and Girls....

: robycop3  Tue Jun 16, 2020 - 04:47:07
  Anyone not FOR Christ is ANTIChrist. However, there will be one man who will be the most-evil person who will ever live, who will be indwelt by Satan himself, who will rule almost all the world, being so evil that he's cast alive directly into the lake of fire without any further judgment.

  The papacy has been antichrist, but it does not, nor will it again, have the power it once had.  You, there are, & have been many antichrists, but the one mentioned by Daniel, Paul, & Revelation will be the worst of all, making all the others seem as naughty toddlers in comparison.

We are not that far apart concerning AC. Though I believe the devil himself will impersonate our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the end, not use a man to do so. We will have to disagree about the papacy, she already has greater influence on the global scale, than she once had over Europe in the past. Her current and future success though, will continue to be reliant upon her ability to control and manipulate from behind the stage, not on it. No one takes hits harder than the visible leaders of this confused and chaotic world. The wise lead from behind the scenes, so as not to be seriously effected by any of the many unexpected convulsions of increasing chaos, which they themselves have helped to produce according to the principles of the evil in control through chaos. Nevertheless, our Lord is always one infinite step ahead of them, even knowing the end from the beginning while allowing for complete freedom among those who have chosen another leader.

Just for general information. The SDA's were not the first to identify the connection between the papacy and France concerning biblical prophecy and or the deadly wound. The following addresses thoughts along those lines prior to any thought of the existents of the SDA denomination.

THE PROPHETIC FAITH OF OUR FATHERS, VOL. 4, FROOM

CHAPTER 5

BRITISH EXPOSITION REPRINTS INFLUENCE AMERICA

PGS. 112-116

2. JURIEU PREDICTS FRENCH BREAK BY 1795

The two excerpts from those earlier expositors which gave the most point and pertinency to this pamphlet were gleaned from Pierre Jurieu and Robert Fleming, Jr. The former, before 1687, wrote The Accomplishment, of the Scripture Prophecies, and the latter penned his contribution but a few years later, in 1701, on the Rise and Fall of the Papacy Pierre Jurieu was the Huguenot scholar who forecast the coming upheaval in France on the basis of the predicted "earthquake," recorded in Revelation 11:13, when the "tenth part" of Christendom, or the Babylonian "city"—one of the ten kingdoms-would, through bloodshed, dramatically fall away from its support of the Papacy. "In my opinion, we cannot doubt that it is FRANCE," Jurieu had said explicitly. France, which a long time ago has begun to "shake off the yoke of Rome," will "break with Rome and the Roman religion

Now all this, be it noted, was written a century prior to the Revolution. The death and resurrection of the Two Witnesses, he says, will also take place in France. And all this, he declares, will develop shortly. After the falling away of France he expects, within a short interval following 1785, the beginning of Christ's reign on earth, the millennium. This will come after the fall of the papal empire, the elimination of the divisions in Christendom, then the conversion of the Jews and afterward of the "remote nations," and finally the reign of peace, humility, equality, and love.

3. FLEMING FORECASTS PAPAL HUMILIATION BY 1794

Even more specific is Robert Fleming, Jr., minister of the Scottish Presbyterian Church in Lothbury, in his 1701 work. Believing that he is living under the fourth vial, which was to be poured out upon the papal kingdom, through the humiliation of some "popish princes," he conjectures on future fulfillments. He looks for the French monarchy to be humbled at the end of the fourth vial, about 1794—his end date for the 1260 years (from Justinian on to 1794)-when the fifth vial would be poured out, he believes, upon the "seat of the beast," or Rome, from 1794 to 1848 (the end of the 1260 360-day "years" from 606)

It was consequently the tremendous upheaval of the French Revolution, beginning in 1789, which brought out these reprints, in England, France, Germany, and America-reprints of the numerous predictions of a "stroke" against the Papacy, to be delivered shortly before 1800. Little wonder that there was a profound stir and wide discussion of the matter on the part of thousands in the different countries of Christendom concerning the very events that now appeared obviously to be fulfilling these predictions before their very eyes. Time was waxing late. The end of the age was approaching.

II. King and Bicheno Look to French Revolution

When the French Army entered the Sistine Chapel of the Vatican, on February 15, 1798, and took Pius VI prisoner- sending him off to die in exile in France—a whole group of men began to assert that that very year, 1798, marked the end of the 1260 years.

KING ANNOUNCES CLOSE OF 1260 YEARS IN 1798

One of the first so to declare was EDWARD KING, Cambridge University graduate and attorney, whose Remarks on the Signs of the Times was thrice published in London in 1798 and 1799, with an American reprint at Philadelphia in 1800. Expressly maintaining that the long papal period had ended in 1798, and that the closing date thereby fixes its beginning as of 538, the date was thus established from which to calculate the time of this special period in the "ECCLESIASTICAL PONTIFICAL POWER" of the pope Here is King's statement:

"And now let us see;—hear;—and understand. THIS IS THE YEAR 1798.—And just 1260 years ago, in the very beginning of the year 538, Belisarius put an end to the Empire, and Dominion of the Goths at Rome.

"He had entered the City on the 10th of the preceding December, in triumph, in the name of Justinian, Emperor of the East; and had soon after made it tributary to him: leaving thenceforward from A.D. 538, NO POWER in Rome, that could be said to rule over the earth,—excepting the ECCLESIASTICAL PONTIFICAL POWER."

This was definitely calculated on the basis of the specifications of the prophecy. Was not the fall of the Papacy, he asks, or "Great Babylon," to come "at the END of 1260 years" of Daniel 7:25 and 12:7, or "at the end of a time, times, and half a time? which computation amounts to the same period." King later observes, "Surely, the End, prophetically spoken of in Holy Scripture, approacheth," and on the next page he solemnly adds, "We approach unto the latter days!—I tremble whilst I write! ... I have not the least presumptuous idea of intending to prophecy [prophesy].—The word of Prophecy is sealed forever." So impressive were these statements by King that four decades later they were quoted in the Boston Signs of the Times, and the readers urged to "weigh every word." Various other works of that period made essentially the same declarations concerning the ending of the 1260 years.

2. BICHENO ENDS 1260 YEARS IN 1789

Another oft—reprinted work was by James Bicheno, dissenting minister and schoolman of London, entitled The Signs of the Times: or, The Overthrow of the Papal Tyranny in France. This was published at London in 1793. And it not only went through five editions in England by 1800 but was also reprinted in America, the first time in 1794. The popularity and the influence of such an extensively circulated book here in America can be envisioned by its unusual circulation. Bicheno took much the same position as Fleming on the prophetic numbers, only he dated the 1260 years of the power and prosperity of the papal "antichristian beast" from 529 to 1789—from the first publication of Justinian's Code to the year when the French Revolution broke out. And he wrote while the Revolution was actually under way.

He also thought that the 2300 years extended from 481 B.C to A.D. 1819, in the nineteenth century, when the sanctuary would be cleansed, thus ending them synchronously with the 1290 years. The supplemental thirty years, completing the 1290 years, ending in 1819, would see the overthrow of the Papacy, the Turk, and other tyrannies. And the remaining 45 years, to the close of the 1335 years (in 1864), would witness the gathering and conversion of the Jews, the purification and unification of the Gentile church, the conversion of the heathen, and the appearance "of the Lord" (citing Zechariah 12:8-14; 14; Ezekiel 38, 39, and probably Revelation 20:9).

Bicheno held the standard view on the four kingdoms of Daniel 2 and 7-as Babylonia, Persia, Grecia, and Rome—followed by the division of Rome, with the Little Horn as the spiritual tyranny of the Papacy. In Revelation 12 the dragon likewise stood for pagan Rome and its despotism, while the ten-horned beast of Revelation 13 represented the spiritual tyranny of the Papacy. He thought, however, that the two-horned beast from the earth was to be identified with the kings of France. But on the great fundamentals there was essential agreement.

: Amo  Tue Jun 16, 2020 - 09:35:35
We are not that far apart concerning AC. Though I believe the devil himself will impersonate our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the end, not use a man to do so. We will have to disagree about the papacy, she already has greater influence on the global scale, than she once had over Europe in the past. Her current and future success though, will continue to be reliant upon her ability to control and manipulate from behind the stage, not on it. No one takes hits harder than the visible leaders of this confused and chaotic world. The wise lead from behind the scenes, so as not to be seriously effected by any of the many unexpected convulsions of increasing chaos, which they themselves have helped to produce according to the principles of the evil in control through chaos. Nevertheless, our Lord is always one infinite step ahead of them, even knowing the end from the beginning while allowing for complete freedom among those who have chosen another leader.

  Why do I know Satan will use this man ? because the man will be cast into the LOF when Jesus returns, while Satan won't be cast into it til the Great White Throne judgment 1K years later.

: Amo  Tue Jun 16, 2020 - 10:43:32
Just for general information. The SDA's were not the first to identify the connection between the papacy and France concerning biblical prophecy and or the deadly wound. The following addresses thoughts along those lines prior to any thought of the existents of the SDA denomination.

  The world didn't marvel & become RC when Pius VII returned to Rome in 1814. What actually happened was a further reduction in the power of the RCC. Henry VIII reduced their power in Britain, & France thru Napoleon further reduced it.

  Britain & Prussia kayoed nappy under Wellington, & Prussia was on the way to becoming a powerhouse. The RCC's days of dominating a large, powerful nation were over.

  Sorry, but the "French Connection" was NOT the beast's head wound from which it recovered. And remember, it's only ONE of the beast's heads which will receive the wound.

: robycop3  Tue Jun 16, 2020 - 16:36:33
  Why do I know Satan will use this man ? because the man will be cast into the LOF when Jesus returns, while Satan won't be cast into it til the Great White Throne judgment 1K years later.

No one will be cast into the lake of fire until the end of the thousand years. This world is destroyed when Jesus Returns by the brightness of His coming, at which time the saved are raised to go with our Lord to heaven. The wicked are not raised until the end of the thousand years which the saved spend in heaven with Christ. Both the saved and the wicked will be raised unto salvation or damnation as our Lord has testified. The saved when Christ returns, and the wicked at the end of the thousand years when Satan is loosed to deceived them again to attack the city of the saints, when they will be cast into the lake of fire where all whose names are not written in the book of life shall go.

Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Both the saved and the wicked will be resurrected.

Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

The saved are resurrected first at Christ's second coming, that where He is, they may be also.

1Th 4:13  But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Again, the saved are raised at Christ's second coming, and so shall ever be with the lord.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The saved who were raised at Jesus coming in the first resurrection, are with Christ in heaven during the thousand years as the other scriptures I shared testified they would ever be. The rest fo the dead though, live not again until the end of the thousand years at the resurrection of damnation which our Lord spoke of in the first verse posted above. It is at the end of the thousand years that all whose names are not in the book life are cast into the lake of fire, which includes all of fallen unsaved humanity, Satan, and his angels. this would include of course the beast and false prophet who are of fallen humanity.

: robycop3  Tue Jun 16, 2020 - 17:10:17
  The world didn't marvel & become RC when Pius VII returned to Rome in 1814. What actually happened was a further reduction in the power of the RCC. Henry VIII reduced their power in Britain, & France thru Napoleon further reduced it.

  Britain & Prussia kayoed nappy under Wellington, & Prussia was on the way to becoming a powerhouse. The RCC's days of dominating a large, powerful nation were over.

  Sorry, but the "French Connection" was NOT the beast's head wound from which it recovered. And remember, it's only ONE of the beast's heads which will receive the wound.

Your are of course entitled to your opinion, nevertheless you are wrong. Yes, the seven heads of the dragon who is Satan, are also the seven beasts or governments if you will of his counterfeit kingdoms in defiance of God. Only one of them receives a deadly wound which is healed. That one is the fifth beast of biblical prophecy, and the first new covenant beast of Revelation 13 who picks up where the old covenant beasts left off. The prior four beasts of the old covenant died as well, but their deadly wounds never healed and they never recovered as this papal new covenant beast does. Nevertheless, the seven headed dragon who is Satan, gives this beast its power and authority.

Rev 13:1  And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9 If any man have an ear, let him hear. 10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

The dragon or Satan gave this papal beast its power and authority in defiance of the living God, and it is connected to the prior beasts of biblical prophecy as mentioned in the above scriptures who derived their power from him as well. They are all the manifestation of his rebellion against God carried out through fallen humanity under his control. They are counterfeit kingdoms of the enemy of the kingdom of God, and the healing of the deadly wound of this final papal beast is the devil's counterfeit resurrection to the resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Thus Christ's own and those who worship the final beast, both worship and serve their chosen risen saviors. So be it.

When, in 1797, Pope Pius VI fell grievously ill, Napoleon gave orders that in the event of his death no successor should be elected to his office, and that the Papacy should be discontinued.

But the pope recovered; the peace was soon broken; Berthier entered Rome on the tenth of February, 1798, and proclaimed a republic.  The aged pontiff refused to violate his oath by recognizing it, and was hurried from prison to prison into France.  Broken with fatigue and sorrows, he died on the nineteenth of August, 1799, in the French fortress of Valence, aged eighty two years.  No wonder that half Europe thought Napoleon's veto would be obeyed, and that with the Pope the Papacy was dead.--- " The Modern Papacy," Page I ( Catholic Truth Society, London ).

The following quotes are taken from the book, FACTS OF FAITH.

(Having now seen that the 1260 years of papal supremacy began in 538 A. D., it is an easy matter to find their close. Adding the 1260 years to 538 brings us to the year 1798. And if we have given the right application to this prophecy, history must record an event in 1798 that would appear like a death stroke to the Papacy. Turning to history we find just such an eventrecorded:

The official Swedish newspaper, Stockholms Posttidning, for March 29, 1798, has the following news item:

"Rome, the 21st of Feb. [1798], Pope Pius VI, has occupied the papal chair for all of twenty-eight years, but the 15th inst. His government in the Papal States was abolished, and five days later, guarded by one hundred French soldiers, he was taken away from his palace and his capital ....

"His... property was sold by the French, and among it were seven hundred head of cattle, one hundred fifty horses, and eight hundred cords of wood ....

"Poor Pius! He must have felt very sad as he left Rome to go into captivity. When he departed his tear-filled eyes were turned heavenward."

Rev. E. B. Elliott, A. M., says of these events: "In the years 1796, 1797, French dominion being established by Bonaparte's victories in Northern Italy,... the French armies [urged] their march onward to the Papal Capital ....

The aged Pope himself, now left mere nominal master of some few remaining shreds of the Patrimony of Peter, experienced soon after in person the bitterness of the prevailing anti-papal spirit ....

"On pretence of an insult to the French Ambassador there, a French corps d'armee under Berthier, having in February, 1798, crossed the Apennines from Ancona, and entered Rome, the tricolour flag was displayed from the Capitol, amidst the shouts of the populace, the Pope's temporal reign declared at an end, and the Roman Republic proclaimed, in strict alliance fraternization with the French. Then, in the Sistine Chapel of the Vatican, the ante-hall to which has a fresco painted by Papal order commemorative of the Protestant massacre on St. Bartholomew's day, (might not the scene have served as a memento of God's retributive justice?) there, while seated on his throne, and receiving the gratulations of his cardinals on the anniversary of his election to the Popedom, he was arrested by the French military, the ring of his marriage with the Church Catholic torn from his finger, his palace rifled, and himself carried prisoner into France, only to die there in exile shortly after"-"Horoe Apocalyptice," Rev. E. B. Ellfott, A. M., Vol. III, pp. 400, 401. London: 1862.

Arthur R. Pennington, M. A., F. R. Hist. Soc., says of this event:

"One day the Pope was sitting on his throne in a chapel of the Vatican, surrounded by his cardinals who had assembled for the purpose cf offering him their congratulations on his elevation to his high dignity. On a sudden, the shouts of an angry multitude penetrated to the conclave, intermingled with the strokes of axes and hammers on the doors. Very soon a band of soldiers burst into the hall, who tore away from his finger his pontifical ring, and hurried him off, a prisoner, through a hall, the walls of which were adorned with a fresco, representing the armed satellites of the Papacy, on St. Bartholomew's day, as bathing their swords in the blood of unoffending women and helpless children. Thus it might seem as if he were to be reminded that the same God who visits the iniquities of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation, had made him the victim of His retributive justice for a deed of atrocity which had long been crying aloud to Him for vengeance"-" Epochs of the Papacy," pp. 449, 450. London: 188I.

Rev. Joseph Rickaby, an English Jesuit, writes: "When, in 1797, Pope Plus VI fell grievously ill, Napoleon gave orders that in the event of his death no successor should be elected to his office, and that the Papacy should be discontinued.

Rev. George Trevor, Canon of York, writes of this eventful year:

"The object of the French Directory was the destruction of the pontifical government, as the irreconcilable enemy of the republic .... The aged pope was summoned to surrender the temporal government; on his refusal, he was dragged from the altar .... His rings were torn from his fingers, and finally, after declaring the temporal power abolished, the victors carried the pope prisoner into Tuscany, whence he never returned (1798).

"The Papal States, converted into the Roman Republic, were declared to be in perpetual alliance with France, but the French general was the real master of Rome .... The territorial possessions of the clergy and monks were declared national property, and their former owners cast into prison. The Papacy was extinct: not a vestige of its existence remained; and among all the Roman Catholic powers not a finger was stirred in its defence. The Eternal City had no longer prince or pontiff; its bishop was a dying captive in foreign lands; and the decree was already announced that no successor would be allowed in his place"-" Rome: From the Fall of the Western Empire," pp. 439, 440. London: 1868.

An English secular writer, John Adolphus, says of 1798:

"The downfall of the papal government, by whatever means effected, excited perhaps less sympathy than that of any other in Europe: the errors, the oppressions, the tyranny of Rome over the whole Christian world, were remembered with bitterness; many rejoiced, through religious antipathy, in the overthrow of a church which they considered as idolatrous, though attended with the immediate triumph of infidelity; and many saw in these events the accomplishment of prophecies, and the exhibition of signs promised in the most mystical parts of the Holy Scriptures."-"History of France from 1790-1802," Vol. II, p. 379. London: I803. (FACTS OF FAITH by Christian Edwardson pages 49-51)

In 1798 the Pope of Rome was dethroned, his papacy and government were dissolved, and his property was sold and or declared national property of France. If this is not a deadly wound then what is? Today the papacy has regained all of this, is a literal nation state of the world, has global political influence and ambassadors from virtually every nation on earth attending to her, has a permanent observatory seat at the United Nations, and is probably the single wealthiest institution on earth which receives countless billions of dollars every year from the nations and kings or kingdoms of this earth. If you wish to turn your head and pretend these historical and present facts are not so, so be it. Do you have another suggestion regarding another power so historically directly connected to the beasts of biblical prophecy and the history of Christianity? I think not. Nevertheless, if you do, please do expound.

  When the pope returned to his place, the world did not marvel & say, "Who is like the pope ? Who is able to make war with him ?"  The world didn't pay a lotta attention to that event. Most people were glad that the scourge of Napoleon was over.

  Scripture points to ONE MAN, not a successive line of men, as being the 'beast'. Daniel wrote of the prince of the people who would destroy Jerusalem. (The Romans) Paul wrote of the MAN (not "men") of sin. Rev. 13 speaks of "HE", not "they".

  The beast of Rev. 17 represents both the man & his empire. The harlot represents both the RCC & whoever the pope may be at that time. And in that prophetic vision we see the beast will turn on the harlot.

  Again, remember the beast/antichrist won't recognize any god but himself. He and his sidekick the false prophet will demand that he be worshipped. Don't know about the early popes, but none over the last thousand years has done that.

  All the eschatological events, including the coming of the great antichrist, are still future.

: robycop3  Thu Jun 18, 2020 - 05:08:03Daniel wrote of the prince of the people who would destroy Jerusalem.

Sir, give me ONE SCRIPTURE that supports what you are saying~just one! Be prepared to defend it. I know ahead of time where you will be going, but you will get no support from heaven's testimony of the "Prince" saying it is a man YET TO COME.

I'm waiting for your scripture.

: robycop3  Thu Jun 18, 2020 - 05:08:03


  All the eschatological events, including the coming of the great antichrist, are still future.

Look, we are going to disagree on this one simply because I am seeing something that Amo and I do agree on but you don't.

The coming of the great antichrist IS definitely still future. Future being a relative term because I do think it is near enough to say it is knocking at our very door.

But you seem to be indicating that out of nowhere someone will come to deceive the nations and the world will fall on their faces in worship to him?

I don't buy that if that is your belief.

Speaking for myself only.

To me... the great liar, and counterfeiter and would be copier of all things God most likely will be born, and grow up, and then either assume his appointed role or by possession. (Yes I do believe in possession).  He will have made a name for himself
and will be known world wide and will offer the hope to all people in his deception.

You say that you do not believe it will be through a system.... such as the RCC pontifial line through the ages.

Let me ask you this.

You agree that Jesus was born, and he grew up... right? When was he actually savior to mankind? Was it from birth, or was it at the point where Jesus began his ministry and was baptized or, was it when he went, at the HS instruction into those 40 days in the wilderness?

The AC is going to come to power in similar manner.... just like Jesus brought our salvation in His ministry .

The RCC pontifical lineage is a perfect set up for him.... But it will not be an instant thing. The ground work will be laid so the unsuspecting will be ever so subtly indoctrinated... just like we all have been to the acceptance of gays, trans, and every other abomination.  Slow and steady.

When the right person is elected as pope then poof... watch how fast things will escalate.... just like how fast our country is being degraded by 12 1/2% of the population.

In the RCC Catechism go back several decades and look at this change made within.

CCC - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 9 PARAGRAPH 3
www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p...
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." 330

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm

Then we have

The Mysterious Death Of Pope John Paul I (Most believe he was murdered)(No autopsy.... against the church)

In 1978, Pope Paul VI died. As is Vatican custom, the College of Cardinals went into the conclave and began to decide who would be the next pope. It was the largest papal conclave in history and the first since 1721 in which three future popes participated. After the fourth ballot was submitted, Cardinal Albino Luciani was elected as the next Bishop of Rome.

Despite the fact that he had repeatedly claimed he would refuse the papacy, should it be offered to him, Luciani accepted the position and assumed the name Pope John Paul I. "May God forgive you for what you have done," he said upon his acceptance. His words would hang eerily over his papacy, as just 33 days later, the College would be holding their second conclave of the year after Pope John Paul I died suddenly and under increasingly mysterious circumstances.

On the morning of Sept. 29, 1978, Sister Vicenza entered the pope's room to check on him, after noticing that he had yet to come out for his morning coffee. To her horror, she found him dead in his bed. She quickly summoned another sister to confirm what she'd found, a younger nun named Sister Margherita. Both nuns reported that the pope's skin was cold and that his nails were surprisingly dark.

https://allthatsinteresting.com/pope-john-paul-i

And now we have a Pope.... Pope Francis.

Frankie has said that having a personal relationship is dangerous that the relationship must come through the church.

"Personal relationship with Jesus is dangerous outside the RCC says pope."

Video of him saying it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmjAjrlrE10

"The jesuit Pope is a key player in the plan to usher in a New World Order, determined to mislead his flock while catering to the global cabal."

Other things to read in here.
https://newspunch.com/pope-francis-jesus-dangerous/

Frankie has ..

"Pope Francis Drops Title 'Vicar Of Christ' Assumes Power As Jorge Mario Bergoglio In 'His Own Name' Fulfilling John 5:43 Prophecy Of Antichrist.

https://jonsnewplace.wordpress.com/2020/04/04/pope-francis-drops-title-vicar-of-christ-assumes-power-as-jorge-mario-bergoglio-in-his-own-name-fulfilling-john-543-prophecy-of-antichrist/

"Pope to U.N. Assembly: I come "in my own name"

https://veritas-vincit-international.org/2017/06/11/pope-to-u-n-assembly-i-come-in-my-own-name/

I am not saying it is Frankie.... But he is a Jesuit and they DO have an agenda.

And he is trying to change the course of the church rapidly. Why?

If  you are right.... great.

But if we are right and the pontifical line is the one.... keep your eyes and ears open.

: robycop3  Thu Jun 18, 2020 - 05:08:03
  When the pope returned to his place, the world did not marvel & say, "Who is like the pope ? Who is able to make war with him ?"  The world didn't pay a lotta attention to that event. Most people were glad that the scourge of Napoleon was over.

  Scripture points to ONE MAN, not a successive line of men, as being the 'beast'. Daniel wrote of the prince of the people who would destroy Jerusalem. (The Romans) Paul wrote of the MAN (not "men") of sin. Rev. 13 speaks of "HE", not "they".

  The beast of Rev. 17 represents both the man & his empire. The harlot represents both the RCC & whoever the pope may be at that time. And in that prophetic vision we see the beast will turn on the harlot.

  Again, remember the beast/antichrist won't recognize any god but himself. He and his sidekick the false prophet will demand that he be worshipped. Don't know about the early popes, but none over the last thousand years has done that.

  All the eschatological events, including the coming of the great antichrist, are still future.

More general confusion. You are confusing biblical beasts of prophecy and individuals who are AC. The scriptures themselves define what prophetic beasts are.

Dan 7:16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things. 17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth. 18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever. 19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; 20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. 21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; 22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. 23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

Prophetic beasts are kingdoms, not individuals. Old covenant beasts are associated with kings as they were the visible head of nations or kingdoms of that time. The new covenant beasts of Revelation 13 however, do not have kings. This is no doubt due to the changing nature of government since that time beginning with the Roman Empire.

Dan 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be. 20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. 21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

Likewise, the ram and goat of Dan. 8 are identified as the Medo-Persian and Grecian empires. The history addressed concerning both, and the several kings of both, makes it clear that the empires are what is being addressed, and not just individual kings.

This being the case, there would be no reason to suspect that the world would immediately notice the rise of papal power again concerning the beasts of new covenant prophecy. The healing of the beast takes place over time during the transition of one beast or kingdom to another. The first beast or kingdom receives a deadly wound which precipitates its demise. Its wound is not healed until the second beast is powerful enough to reestablish the power of its former glory. As there is quite a bit of time in the setting up and taring down of kingdoms, there has been quite a bit of time in this process. Which time involves changing the worlds mind about accepting once again, the leadership of this former beast which was firmly rejected by those it abused in the past. Wiping out history and implementing Revisionist history, creating chaos and confusion, dumbing down society in general, and political intrigue have been the methodology of those seeking to reestablish the power of this first beast ever since it was lost. These things take time. That time however is about up. Ignore what is happening right in front of your face if you wish, this will change nothing.

: Rella  Thu Jun 18, 2020 - 08:20:17

Look, we are going to disagree on this one simply because I am seeing something that Amo and I do agree on but you don't.

The coming of the great antichrist IS definitely still future. Future being a relative term because I do think it is near enough to say it is knocking at our very door.

But you seem to be indicating that out of nowhere someone will come to deceive the nations and the world will fall on their faces in worship to him?

I don't buy that if that is your belief.

Speaking for myself only.

To me... the great liar, and counterfeiter and would be copier of all things God most likely will be born, and grow up, and then either assume his appointed role or by possession. (Yes I do believe in possession).  He will have made a name for himself
and will be known world wide and will offer the hope to all people in his deception.

You say that you do not believe it will be through a system.... such as the RCC pontifial line through the ages.

Let me ask you this.

You agree that Jesus was born, and he grew up... right? When was he actually savior to mankind? Was it from birth, or was it at the point where Jesus began his ministry and was baptized or, was it when he went, at the HS instruction into those 40 days in the wilderness?

The AC is going to come to power in similar manner.... just like Jesus brought our salvation in His ministry .

The RCC pontifical lineage is a perfect set up for him.... But it will not be an instant thing. The ground work will be laid so the unsuspecting will be ever so subtly indoctrinated... just like we all have been to the acceptance of gays, trans, and every other abomination.  Slow and steady.

When the right person is elected as pope then poof... watch how fast things will escalate.... just like how fast our country is being degraded by 12 1/2% of the population.

In the RCC Catechism go back several decades and look at this change made within.

CCC - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 9 PARAGRAPH 3
www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p...
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." 330

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm

Then we have

The Mysterious Death Of Pope John Paul I (Most believe he was murdered)(No autopsy.... against the church)

In 1978, Pope Paul VI died. As is Vatican custom, the College of Cardinals went into the conclave and began to decide who would be the next pope. It was the largest papal conclave in history and the first since 1721 in which three future popes participated. After the fourth ballot was submitted, Cardinal Albino Luciani was elected as the next Bishop of Rome.

Despite the fact that he had repeatedly claimed he would refuse the papacy, should it be offered to him, Luciani accepted the position and assumed the name Pope John Paul I. "May God forgive you for what you have done," he said upon his acceptance. His words would hang eerily over his papacy, as just 33 days later, the College would be holding their second conclave of the year after Pope John Paul I died suddenly and under increasingly mysterious circumstances.

On the morning of Sept. 29, 1978, Sister Vicenza entered the pope's room to check on him, after noticing that he had yet to come out for his morning coffee. To her horror, she found him dead in his bed. She quickly summoned another sister to confirm what she'd found, a younger nun named Sister Margherita. Both nuns reported that the pope's skin was cold and that his nails were surprisingly dark.

https://allthatsinteresting.com/pope-john-paul-i

And now we have a Pope.... Pope Francis.

Frankie has said that having a personal relationship is dangerous that the relationship must come through the church.

"Personal relationship with Jesus is dangerous outside the RCC says pope."

Video of him saying it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmjAjrlrE10

"The jesuit Pope is a key player in the plan to usher in a New World Order, determined to mislead his flock while catering to the global cabal."

Other things to read in here.
https://newspunch.com/pope-francis-jesus-dangerous/

Frankie has ..

"Pope Francis Drops Title 'Vicar Of Christ' Assumes Power As Jorge Mario Bergoglio In 'His Own Name' Fulfilling John 5:43 Prophecy Of Antichrist.

https://jonsnewplace.wordpress.com/2020/04/04/pope-francis-drops-title-vicar-of-christ-assumes-power-as-jorge-mario-bergoglio-in-his-own-name-fulfilling-john-543-prophecy-of-antichrist/

"Pope to U.N. Assembly: I come "in my own name"

https://veritas-vincit-international.org/2017/06/11/pope-to-u-n-assembly-i-come-in-my-own-name/

I am not saying it is Frankie.... But he is a Jesuit and they DO have an agenda.

And he is trying to change the course of the church rapidly. Why?

If  you are right.... great.

But if we are right and the pontifical line is the one.... keep your eyes and ears open.

  Why can't the AC come from "nowhere" ? Napoleon did. Hitler did. Just 20years ago, who'd heard of Kim Il-Jong? Vlad Putin ?

  In the entertainmant world, who'd hearda Taylor Swift, Justin Bieber, or many of today's actors/actresses? How many came from celeb families ?

  Who'd heard of Jorge Mario Bergoglio, whose noe pope Francis ?

  Yes, the AC could easily come from some family not known outta its immediate circle of friends/acquaintances. Speaking of Hitler, he came from such a family. Nothing about that family showed any promise of a world figure coming from it. And Adolf himself was unknown til the 1920s.

  I doubt is any of today's celebs will be the AC. If they don't believe in God, or a god, they're too-unpopular, such as Kim Jong-Un is.

  Yes, I believe the AC will be a fresh face. People are tired of the same ole gang.

: Amo  Thu Jun 18, 2020 - 10:47:00
More general confusion. You are confusing biblical beasts of prophecy and individuals who are AC. The scriptures themselves define what prophetic beasts are.

Not at all.

Dan 7:16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things. 17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth. 18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever. 19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; 20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. 21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; 22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. 23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

Prophetic beasts are kingdoms, not individuals. Old covenant beasts are associated with kings as they were the visible head of nations or kingdoms of that time. The new covenant beasts of Revelation 13 however, do not have kings. This is no doubt due to the changing nature of government since that time beginning with the Roman Empire.

    Scripture says differently-Rev. 17:12 "The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. 13 These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast.[/quote]
Plus, read Daniel 7:24.

Dan 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be. 20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. 21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

Likewise, the ram and goat of Dan. 8 are identified as the Medo-Persian and Grecian empires. The history addressed concerning both, and the several kings of both, makes it clear that the empires are what is being addressed, and not just individual kings.

This being the case, there would be no reason to suspect that the world would immediately notice the rise of papal power again concerning the beasts of new covenant prophecy. The healing of the beast takes place over time during the transition of one beast or kingdom to another. The first beast or kingdom receives a deadly wound which precipitates its demise. Its wound is not healed until the second beast is powerful enough to reestablish the power of its former glory. As there is quite a bit of time in the setting up and taring down of kingdoms, there has been quite a bit of time in this process. Which time involves changing the worlds mind about accepting once again, the leadership of this former beast which was firmly rejected by those it abused in the past. Wiping out history and implementing Revisionist history, creating chaos and confusion, dumbing down society in general, and political intrigue have been the methodology of those seeking to reestablish the power of this first beast ever since it was lost. These things take time. That time however is about up. Ignore what is happening right in front of your face if you wish, this will change nothing.

  Again, the antichrist will be ONE MAN, as Scripture indicates. and it won't be a pope. no pope is popular enough to be loved by the world, & the AC won't acknowkedge any god but himself. How many RCs would follow a pope who doesn't acknowledge God?

  The beast of rev. 17 represents both the AC & his empire. Initially, 10 nations will unite under him, with their rulers being his vassals. However, he will have to overthrow three of them. They, and the AC, will rule for one prophetic hour, however long that is. (On the year-for-a-day principle, that'll be about 15 days, but I don't know if that's the case here.)  This man will be the same one mentioned in Rev. 13, & mentioned by Daniel & Paul.

  We have to put all the eschatological Scriptures together to realize the AC will be one man. But you must realize the RCC will never have the power it once had. While it remains the world's largest qseudo/quasi-Christian cult,  it's nowhere, & never will be, what it used to be when rulers of nations answered to the pope.

: robycop3  Thu Jun 18, 2020 - 16:21:05
  Why can't the AC come from "nowhere" ? Napoleon did. Hitler did. Just 20years ago, who'd heard of Kim Il-Jong? Vlad Putin ?

  In the entertainmant world, who'd hearda Taylor Swift, Justin Bieber, or many of today's actors/actresses? How many came from celeb families ?

  Who'd heard of Jorge Mario Bergoglio, whose noe pope Francis ?

  Yes, the AC could easily come from some family not known outta its immediate circle of friends/acquaintances. Speaking of Hitler, he came from such a family. Nothing about that family showed any promise of a world figure coming from it. And Adolf himself was unknown til the 1920s.

  I doubt is any of today's celebs will be the AC. If they don't believe in God, or a god, they're too-unpopular, such as Kim Jong-Un is.

  Yes, I believe the AC will be a fresh face. People are tired of the same ole gang.

Do you think the AC will be an instant hit?

Be careful of how you answer that because this is religion we are talking about,
not a Grammy winning singer or an academy award actor who many will idolize until the new fresh face hits the screen.

But let me ask you this.

Pope Frankie got elected.

Certainly those voting for him and others within the hierarchy of the church knew of him... but the common parishioner did not.

He was a fresh new face who seemingly came from nowhere. And endearing to everyone when he insisted he pay his hotel bill himself after being elected.

I just do not see why you feel it willnot be or should not be from the Vatican.

What perfect way to slap God in the face but to apostatize the very church who had named Peter as their first Pope.

  According to Catholic tradition he received the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven (Matthew 16:18–19). Feast day (Feast of Saints Peter and Paul) 29 June, (Chair of Saint Peter) 22 February. He is recognized by the Catholic Church as the first Bishop of Rome appointed by Christ.

Would that not be the perfect end to what Satan surly sees as a church whose first head was appointed by Christ?

And would not putting a few men in that role and working through them to start the downward trend from the values we all hold on high as Christians?

I am not declaring Pope Francis is the one. But he certainly is in line of dragging the church down and away from God ever so subtly,and the people accept and applaud.

  I look for a pope to be the "beast from the earth", the AC's sidekick, a miracle-working false prophet, who can do such things as supernaturally cause his boss' statue to speak, or call forth lightning. (only while in his boss' presence)

  I could be wrong there, of course. But it appears the RCC will have a hand in boosting the AC to power, similar to how it helped Hitler. And the AC will turn on the RCC, as Hitler did, only it'll be more -worldwide than Hitler's attack on it was.

 

: robycop3  Fri Jun 19, 2020 - 04:42:03
  I look for a pope to be the "beast from the earth", the AC's sidekick, a miracle-working false prophet, who can do such things as supernaturally cause his boss' statue to speak, or call forth lightning. (only while in his boss' presence)

  I could be wrong there, of course. But it appears the RCC will have a hand in boosting the AC to power, similar to how it helped Hitler. And the AC will turn on the RCC, as Hitler did, only it'll be more -worldwide than Hitler's attack on it was.

Agreed. To the extent that the RCC is instrumental.

Whether from within  or as you feel outside of the church... they are in the mix.

I look at what Frankie says.... And his push for "green energy " whatever..... I look at his desires and push toward a one world order.... which both have been written on.....

And I wonder deeply about the "secret" meeting he had with Mike Pence ... secret in that the two held a private meeting .

From the Jesuit review
https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2020/01/24/mike-pence-and-pope-francis-meet-surprisingly-long-first-visit

And other articles talk of Calista Gingrich, Newts wife being instrumental in making this happen.

Getting the ducks all in a row, IMO.

: Rella  Fri Jun 19, 2020 - 07:21:44
Agreed. To the extent that the RCC is instrumental.

Whether from within  or as you feel outside of the church... they are in the mix.

I look at what Frankie says.... And his push for "green energy " whatever..... I look at his desires and push toward a one world order.... which both have been written on.....

And I wonder deeply about the "secret" meeting he had with Mike Pence ... secret in that the two held a private meeting .

From the Jesuit review
https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2020/01/24/mike-pence-and-pope-francis-meet-surprisingly-long-first-visit

And other articles talk of Calista Gingrich, Newts wife being instrumental in making this happen.

Getting the ducks all in a row, IMO.

  No doubt that the world is being prepped for the coming of the man of sin. I believe he will be charismatic, with almost-universal adulation, able to win approval from Protestants, Catholix, Jews, & Moslems alike. And I believe his biggest boost to power will be, by his Satanic ability, he will be able to broker a deal between Jew & Moslem, leading both sides to disarm, thus making Israel "a land of unwalled villages". Naturally, the RCC will be 100% for such a deal ! Whoever the pope may be then will likely be a leading figure in the negotiations.

  I don't know how this'll play out, of course, but it could clear the way for the Jews to build their new temple in Jerusalem. But if we live long enough to see these events beginning, we shall know the rapture is imminent, as God said He'd keep us from that hour of trial.

Again, the antichrist will be ONE MAN, as Scripture indicates. and it won't be a pope. no pope is popular enough to be loved by the world, & the AC won't acknowkedge any god but himself. How many RCs would follow a pope who doesn't acknowledge God?

  The beast of rev. 17 represents both the AC & his empire. Initially, 10 nations will unite under him, with their rulers being his vassals. However, he will have to overthrow three of them. They, and the AC, will rule for one prophetic hour, however long that is. (On the year-for-a-day principle, that'll be about 15 days, but I don't know if that's the case here.)  This man will be the same one mentioned in Rev. 13, & mentioned by Daniel & Paul.

  We have to put all the eschatological Scriptures together to realize the AC will be one man. But you must realize the RCC will never have the power it once had. While it remains the world's largest qseudo/quasi-Christian cult,  it's nowhere, & never will be, what it used to be when rulers of nations answered to the pope.

The beasts of biblical prophecy do not depend upon popularity to accomplish their goals. They only need the support of enough of the deceived to get in power, after which force comes into play, as the prophecies plainly state. You are confusing or joining things the scriptures themselves separate. The AC is not a beast, nor is the RCC of itself. The RCC is BABYLON THE GEAT, who rides beasts, but is not on her own a beast. The political powers she rides are the beasts. The RCC alone, and political entities alone are not beasts. When the RCC rides or controls the politics, then there is a beast. Rejecting scriptures identification of AC's, not just one AC, identifying AC and beasts as one, and basically ignoring the role of BABYLON THE GERAT with both of the same leaves you in deception. The wholesale rejection of the testimony of the Reformers before you who actually lived under the thumb of the first beast and antichrist power themselves, also contributes to leaving yourself in the dark.

The beast of Revelation 17 is also one of the seven before it. What is your explanation of this detail?

: robycop3  Sat Jun 20, 2020 - 07:58:22
  No doubt that the world is being prepped for the coming of the man of sin. I believe he will be charismatic, with almost-universal adulation, able to win approval from Protestants, Catholix, Jews, & Moslems alike. And I believe his biggest boost to power will be, by his Satanic ability, he will be able to broker a deal between Jew & Moslem, leading both sides to disarm, thus making Israel "a land of unwalled villages". Naturally, the RCC will be 100% for such a deal ! Whoever the pope may be then will likely be a leading figure in the negotiations.

  I don't know how this'll play out, of course, but it could clear the way for the Jews to build their new temple in Jerusalem. But if we live long enough to see these events beginning, we shall know the rapture is imminent, as God said He'd keep us from that hour of trial.

The man of sin has already been identified in the past. He is antichrist by nature, and the institution he leads is as well. He has already set himself up in the temple of God during this new covenant era, which temple is the body of Christ, both of the individual professed Christian, and corporate bodies as well. Again, your rejection or perhaps ignorance of the testimony of previous Christians concerning this matter has left you in the dark. The final beast of biblical prophecy is not a new one, it is a resurrected one whose deadly wound is healed, and who rises out of the bottomless pit, which is the bottomless grave.

The beasts of biblical prophecy do not depend upon popularity to accomplish their goals. They only need the support of enough of the deceived to get in power, after which force comes into play, as the prophecies plainly state. You are confusing or joining things the scriptures themselves separate. The AC is not a beast, nor is the RCC of itself. The RCC is BABYLON THE GEAT, who rides beasts, but is not on her own a beast. The political powers she rides are the beasts. The RCC alone, and political entities alone are not beasts. When the RCC rides or controls the politics, then there is a beast. Rejecting scriptures identification of AC's, not just one AC, identifying AC and beasts as one, and basically ignoring the role of BABYLON THE GERAT with both of the same leaves you in deception. The wholesale rejection of the testimony of the Reformers before you who actually lived under the thumb of the first beast and antichrist power themselves, also contributes to leaving yourself in the dark.

The beast of Revelation 17 is also one of the seven before it. What is your explanation of this detail?

A correction to the above statement. Since 1929 the RCC has been a literal nation state of this world, albeit the smallest of all. Nevertheless, as such she has and exercises civil authority over said state. From which time then, she may also be considered a beast, mountain, or head of biblical prophecy. This only adds further truth to the statement in Revelation 17, that she is an eighth but also one of the seven. She existed before as a religious entity riding upon the back of civil authorities during the dark ages of the Holy Roman Empire. Now since 1929 she exists during the recovery of her mortal wound in the exalted position of a literal nation state as well. As such she is uniquely qualified to be an eighth and yet one of the seven at the same time. She already existed in the past atop the back of one beast, and she exists today as the tiniest literal nation state presuming a position upon the backs of all others in her globalist quest for world domination. Her political and or religious influence is set up in virtually every nation of this earth. She is that great city "which reigneth over the kings of the earth."

Rev 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: 2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. 3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. 7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. 8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. 9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. 12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. 14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. 15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. 16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. 17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. 18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9 If any man have an ear, let him hear. 10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. 11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

: Bikelite  Sun Jan 17, 2010 - 21:16:38
This almost makes me sick that Christians can think this way. context all out of wack... but they want and like to think this way sick! Why read antisemitism and hatred twardes God Jehovah  on the news when you can get it from Christians.

I agree with you.

Nearly ALL Xian interpretations of Revelation contain massive does of anti-semitic RACISM.  Jew haters one and all, they rely upon centuries old manifestations of deliberate false interpretations of Judaism, Jewish origins and Jewish LAW. 

Tell them the source of their error and they'll either ignore it or deny it.  Few admit to the point of their racist intoxication - hate of everything Jewish and of Jewish LAW.

Most of those people would prefer to rip the entire Old Testament (Tanakh as it is called in Hebrew) out of the Bible entirely and to deny the fact one cannot be saved apart from the LAW.   Jesus didn't come to destroy the LAW as He was quoted as saying in Matthew 5:17.  Jesus came to destroy SIN, yet post modern Xian's prefer to profess an admiration for nonexistent licentious LAWless grace.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

"I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you." - God speaking to Abraham in Genesis 12:3

Beware the cursed tongue of those who weave webs of anti-semitic dogma.  They are no friend of Christ.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

: Amo  Sun Jun 21, 2020 - 08:24:24
The beasts of biblical prophecy do not depend upon popularity to accomplish their goals. They only need the support of enough of the deceived to get in power, after which force comes into play, as the prophecies plainly state. You are confusing or joining things the scriptures themselves separate. The AC is not a beast, nor is the RCC of itself. The RCC is BABYLON THE GEAT, who rides beasts, but is not on her own a beast. The political powers she rides are the beasts. The RCC alone, and political entities alone are not beasts. When the RCC rides or controls the politics, then there is a beast. Rejecting scriptures identification of AC's, not just one AC, identifying AC and beasts as one, and basically ignoring the role of BABYLON THE GERAT with both of the same leaves you in deception. The wholesale rejection of the testimony of the Reformers before you who actually lived under the thumb of the first beast and antichrist power themselves, also contributes to leaving yourself in the dark.

The beast of Revelation 17 is also one of the seven before it. What is your explanation of this detail?

  No, the MAIN antichrist will be one man, who will rule most of the world. Just put the various eschatological Scriptures together to see that.

  And the beginning of his empire will be made of ten of the nations or peoples of the old Holy Roman empire. That's how it will be of the 7th.

: robycop3  Sun Jul 05, 2020 - 09:19:09
  No, the MAIN antichrist will be one man, who will rule most of the world. Just put the various eschatological Scriptures together to see that.

  And the beginning of his empire will be made of ten of the nations or peoples of the old Holy Roman empire. That's how it will be of the 7th.

Strange, the Pope of Rome was already the leader of a ten nation Holy Roman empire in the past, yet you don't think he was antichrist at the time. He is also presently calling for and actively pursuing global economy and governance. If he isn't antichrist it certainly wouldn't be because he's not trying to do exactly what antichrist will do. I think the ten horns or kings will likely be some global alliance, not just the ten kingdoms of the old Holy Roman empire again. Time will tell.

: Amo  Sun Jul 05, 2020 - 10:20:58
Strange, the Pope of Rome was already the leader of a ten nation Holy Roman empire in the past, yet you don't think he was antichrist at the time. He is also presently calling for and actively pursuing global economy and governance. If he isn't antichrist it certainly wouldn't be because he's not trying to do exactly what antichrist will do. I think the ten horns or kings will likely be some global alliance, not just the ten kingdoms of the old Holy Roman empire again. Time will tell.

  No candidate for pope has the popularity to become the antichrist. Frankie isn't that popular.

  Like Hitler, the antichrist will be a demagogue who will at first say exactly what most people wanna hear, only he will be far-more-effective than Hitler was.

  I believe napoleon & Hitler were "types", forerunners of the antichrist. Napoleon used the RCC for his own projects, while Hitler used it  to get his "Enabling Act" passed in the Reichstag, which gave him almost-absolute power in Germany, then, Hitler turned on it. That's why many SDAs believed Hitler was the antichrist. And for awhile, it seemed like it, as everything Hitler tried succeeded, but after France fell, his demon left him & he quickly went South.

  But the AC won't have a mere demon as Nappy & Adolf did. He will be indwelt by Satan himself. No man will be able to withstand him, & God will allow him to attack & conquer the saints. He will be far-worse than Hitler, Napoleon, Stalin, Pol Pot, Tamerlane, & Genghis Khan all combined.

  I'm thinking the 7 heads will be the global alliance, while the 10 horns will be the beginning of his empire, which Scripture says will be of the 7th empire, which has passed.

  And let's not forget that the greatest empire so far-the British empire-was not all won by force of arms. There was a lotta deal-making involved ! I believe the AC will operate this way too, at times.

  And he will rule til Jesus returns. He will send his army against Him, but He will destroy it by is spoken word. And then, the antichrist & his sidekick the false prophet will be cast alive into the lake of fire, as Scripture says.

: robycop3  Sun Jul 05, 2020 - 16:15:16
  No candidate for pope has the popularity to become the antichrist. Frankie isn't that popular.

  Like Hitler, the antichrist will be a demagogue who will at first say exactly what most people wanna hear, only he will be far-more-effective than Hitler was.

  I believe napoleon & Hitler were "types", forerunners of the antichrist. Napoleon used the RCC for his own projects, while Hitler used it  to get his "Enabling Act" passed in the Reichstag, which gave him almost-absolute power in Germany, then, Hitler turned on it. That's why many SDAs believed Hitler was the antichrist. And for awhile, it seemed like it, as everything Hitler tried succeeded, but after France fell, his demon left him & he quickly went South.

  But the AC won't have a mere demon as Nappy & Adolf did. He will be indwelt by Satan himself. No man will be able to withstand him, & God will allow him to attack & conquer the saints. He will be far-worse than Hitler, Napoleon, Stalin, Pol Pot, Tamerlane, & Genghis Khan all combined.

  I'm thinking the 7 heads will be the global alliance, while the 10 horns will be the beginning of his empire, which Scripture says will be of the 7th empire, which has passed.

  And let's not forget that the greatest empire so far-the British empire-was not all won by force of arms. There was a lotta deal-making involved ! I believe the AC will operate this way too, at times.

  And he will rule til Jesus returns. He will send his army against Him, but He will destroy it by is spoken word. And then, the antichrist & his sidekick the false prophet will be cast alive into the lake of fire, as Scripture says.

If SDA's of the time considered Hitler to be antichrist, it would have been because of his connection and support of the Pope and his minions. I would be interested in some documentation of this belief if it be true. You think Hitler and Napoleon used the RCC, but the RCC was not using them? The RCC was the first political entity to sign an accord with the Nazi party, and advise their faithful to support them. This was not a one sided deal. Napoleon dethroned and exiled the Pope, disbanding the papal estate. He considered the Jesuits an enemy army, which they are. They are the enemies of all nations and or institutions which do not submit to the Roman Pontiff from within them.  The Papacy does not depend upon popularity to rule, it routinely bypasses the will of the peoples of nations to hop in bed with their kings and or leaders in order to establish her power. Pay attention to the details of the prophecies.

Rev 17:1  And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: 2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.................................
9  And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sitteth...............................
15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.................................
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth...............................................

Rev 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities............................
9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,...............................................
11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:......................................
16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls! 17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,

The papacy is becoming increasingly popular and highly regarded by politicians and the rich of the earth the world over, as in evidenced by the ever changing political landscape toward her own written and expressed desires concerning the same. Deny this if you wish, but the description of biblical prophecy regarding her leaves little room for such closed mindedness. She is actively involved in everything described in the prophecies, and is literally the visual picture of "that great city,.......clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!"

  I don't deny for an instant that the RCC is the harlot of Rev. 17, but, just as Hitler "went to bed" with it to serve his purposes, then, turned on it, the antichrist will do likewise, only his persecution won't be limited to one nation, as Hitler's was.  Once the AC gains power, he won't need the RCC any more. Remember, the AC will declare himself to be the only god there is.

: robycop3  Sun Jul 12, 2020 - 05:45:19
  I don't deny for an instant that the RCC is the harlot of Rev. 17, but, just as Hitler "went to bed" with it to serve his purposes, then, turned on it, the antichrist will do likewise, only his persecution won't be limited to one nation, as Hitler's was.  Once the AC gains power, he won't need the RCC any more. Remember, the AC will declare himself to be the only god there is.

We see this differently. The evil one inspires all of this. I don't see him turning against the system he has already inspired to be put in place, which is already acting in defiance of God. He will arrive on the scene to verify the positions he has already inspired and put in place. His miracles and teachings will be the final touches of establishing the same. Why go to war with those who already serve you?

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

You think the final AC will be a man, even if he is, he will be carrying out the "power and signs and lying wonders" of Satan as the scriptures plainly state. The mystery of iniquity was already at work during Paul's day. BABYBLON THE GREAT is the institution of the mystery of iniquity. Satan will not destroy or war against his institution of iniquity when he finalizes his deceptions over the deceived, he will thoroughly establish it, as the scriptures testify.

Rev 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: 2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. 3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. 7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is the revelation of the mystery of Godliness, and BABYLON THE GREAT is the revelation of the mystery of iniquity. These two opposing powers and the institutions they represent will be fully developed and revealed through the division of humanity into one or the other of these parties before Christ returns. All decisions will be made according to humanities submission to one or the other, and then the end shall come. The church of Christ revealing the mystery of Godliness in willing submission to Him and His sacrifice at all costs, and the church of Rome and her adherents revealing the mystery of iniquity by their compromise of all that is godly with the powers that be of this world in submission to the evil one. At which point, these mysteries will no longer be such, but plain for all to see with their courses played out on this planet right before it ends.

Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. 8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. 9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. 14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

When the global harvests are ripe, they will be reaped.

 Note that there are TWO falls of Babylon; the first one has already occurred. God said it'd never be rebuilt; looked what happened to Saddam for trying to rebuild it !

  The 2nd Babylon might well be Rome.

: robycop3  Sun Jul 12, 2020 - 10:45:42
Note that there are TWO falls of Babylon; the first one has already occurred. God said it'd never be rebuilt; looked what happened to Saddam for trying to rebuild it !

  The 2nd Babylon might well be Rome.

Yes, there are two Babylons of scripture, literal Babylon and spiritual Babylon. Just as there are two Israel's of scripture, literal Israel and spiritual Israel. Therefore shall all Israel be saved.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. 15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. 16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

: Bikelite  Sun Jan 17, 2010 - 20:53:29
The women represents apostate Jerusalem....... I dont think so....... more MAN words.... not biblical!

This is an anti-semitic doctrine that was promoted by the Roman Catholic church in the doctrine called FUTURISM, which was published in 1590 by Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera.

In point of fact NOBODY today holds to the standard interpretation of Biblical prophecy/interpretation.  Nearly 100% of Christians formulate their opinions from Biblically illiterate TV preachers (*), Christian tabloid literature and movies, and weird dreams caused by bad potatoes from last night's dinner.

What is the benchmark of standard Biblical prophecy? 

Without going into too much detail the general principle is that the Bible interprets itself.  No outside references are necessary.   Actual history has proven Biblical predictions to be true.
Secondly, the context of the ENTIRE Bible must be considered and applied to determine what is being said or taught.   Using snippets of scripture to justify a predetermined doctrine is as false and phony as snowballs in July.

Take a look at beasts and animal imagery in the Bible. 

When determining subjects relating to eschatology the book of Daniel and Revelation generally work together.  Examine the scriptures as a whole - each book in its entirety.  Since most Christians haven't ever read the Bible from cover to cover, this may come as a shock. Generally speaking animals represent systems nations and organizations.  Horns growing out of those animals generally represent leadership of that system nation or organization. 

For instance, Revelation 13:1-10 describes what has come to be known as the Sea Beast.  It is called the Sea Beast because it arises out of many waters.  The many waters are explained later in Revelation 17:15 as "many peoples and nations and tongues."  Thus the Beast as it has come to be known by ignorant people is not a man, but a global enterprise.   The prostitute that rides the Sea Beast is a leader of the organization and is described as being drunk with the blood of the saints.   It is historic fact that the Roman Catholic church is guilty of murdering more than 55 million Jews and believers in Christ.  No other organization or nation has so much blood on its hands.

The Earth Beast of Revelation 13:11-13 is much more limited in size and is made in the image of the Sea Beast.  This Earth Beast is generally thought to indicate the United States, which was established along the same religious lines as the Sea Beast and which marches in lock step with the Vatican (as well as most other nations).  Bible prophetic beasts generally have multiple horns, meaning multiple leaders.   The Earth Beast has only two.  Is it coincidence that the United States has only two governing political parties when all other nations have either one party or many political parties? 

In addition, Revelation 13 states the beast (organization, not a man) would utter blaspheme against God.  Blaspheme is defined as a claim to BE god.  Read the following statement issued by the Roman Catholic church.

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in heaven and earth." - Barclay Cap. XXVII, p. 218. Cities Petrus Bertrandus, Pius V.

According to a story that first appeared in a 1475 posthumous biography and was subsequently embellished and popularized by Pierre-Simon Laplace, Callixtus III excommunicated the 1456 appearance of Halley's Comet, believing it to be an ill omen for the Christian defenders of Belgrade from the besieging armies of the Ottoman Empire. - Wikipedia

Revelation 13:3 describes a mortal wound to one of the heads (leaders) of the beast (Sea Beast - organization, not a man).   Verse 12 of that same chapter states that the fatal wound would be healed.  Consider actual history:
 
Feb 20, 1797 - Pope Pius VI arrested by French General Berthier and the Vatican property confiscated.  He died in prison less than two years later.
1929 Lateran Accord - Italian dictator Benito Mussolini signed this treaty recognizing the pope as the sovereign of Vatican City.  The Vatican was paid $100 million for real estate seizures and allowed to reinstate its property holdings in Rome (Vatican city).

In the intervening years, there was no pope at all - no head of the Roman Catholic church.  Thus a head (horn) of the Sea Beast was mortally wounded (the Pope actually died) and was later healed/reinstated by Fascist dictator Benito Mussolini.

Neither history nor the Bible implies or suggests Jews had anything to do with these events.   Please read your Bible without prejudiced doctrine in mind.   

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) Jimmie Baker was a noted TV evangelist from the 1980's who was arrested and did prison time for real estate fraud.  He has since testified that the FIRST TIME he read the Bible from cover to cover was when he had a lot of time on his hands in prison.   Mr. Baker is out of stir now and is hosting yet another TV show to promote his bogus gospels.

: Amo  Sun Jul 12, 2020 - 11:58:21
Yes, there are two Babylons of scripture, literal Babylon and spiritual Babylon. Just as there are two Israel's of scripture, literal Israel and spiritual Israel. Therefore shall all Israel be saved.

Scripturally, there is no such thing as a "Spiritual Israel." Only Israel with believing gentiles grafted in.  Rom 11

: Choir Loft  Wed Jul 15, 2020 - 12:52:33
This is an anti-semitic doctrine that was promoted by the Roman Catholic church in the doctrine called FUTURISM, which was published in 1590 by Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera.

In point of fact NOBODY today holds to the standard interpretation of Biblical prophecy/interpretation.  Nearly 100% of Christians formulate their opinions from Biblically illiterate TV preachers (*), Christian tabloid literature and movies, and weird dreams caused by bad potatoes from last night's dinner.

What is the benchmark of standard Biblical prophecy? 

Without going into too much detail the general principle is that the Bible interprets itself.  No outside references are necessary.   Actual history has proven Biblical predictions to be true.
Secondly, the context of the ENTIRE Bible must be considered and applied to determine what is being said or taught.   Using snippets of scripture to justify a predetermined doctrine is as false and phony as snowballs in July.

Take a look at beasts and animal imagery in the Bible. 

When determining subjects relating to eschatology the book of Daniel and Revelation generally work together.  Examine the scriptures as a whole - each book in its entirety.  Since most Christians haven't ever read the Bible from cover to cover, this may come as a shock. Generally speaking animals represent systems nations and organizations.  Horns growing out of those animals generally represent leadership of that system nation or organization. 

For instance, Revelation 13:1-10 describes what has come to be known as the Sea Beast.  It is called the Sea Beast because it arises out of many waters.  The many waters are explained later in Revelation 17:15 as "many peoples and nations and tongues."  Thus the Beast as it has come to be known by ignorant people is not a man, but a global enterprise.   The prostitute that rides the Sea Beast is a leader of the organization and is described as being drunk with the blood of the saints.   It is historic fact that the Roman Catholic church is guilty of murdering more than 55 million Jews and believers in Christ.  No other organization or nation has so much blood on its hands.

The Earth Beast of Revelation 13:11-13 is much more limited in size and is made in the image of the Sea Beast.  This Earth Beast is generally thought to indicate the United States, which was established along the same religious lines as the Sea Beast and which marches in lock step with the Vatican (as well as most other nations).  Bible prophetic beasts generally have multiple horns, meaning multiple leaders.   The Earth Beast has only two.  Is it coincidence that the United States has only two governing political parties when all other nations have either one party or many political parties? 

In addition, Revelation 13 states the beast (organization, not a man) would utter blaspheme against God.  Blaspheme is defined as a claim to BE god.  Read the following statement issued by the Roman Catholic church.

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in heaven and earth." - Barclay Cap. XXVII, p. 218. Cities Petrus Bertrandus, Pius V.

According to a story that first appeared in a 1475 posthumous biography and was subsequently embellished and popularized by Pierre-Simon Laplace, Callixtus III excommunicated the 1456 appearance of Halley's Comet, believing it to be an ill omen for the Christian defenders of Belgrade from the besieging armies of the Ottoman Empire. - Wikipedia

Revelation 13:3 describes a mortal wound to one of the heads (leaders) of the beast (Sea Beast - organization, not a man).   Verse 12 of that same chapter states that the fatal wound would be healed.  Consider actual history:
 
Feb 20, 1797 - Pope Pius VI arrested by French General Berthier and the Vatican property confiscated.  He died in prison less than two years later.
1929 Lateran Accord - Italian dictator Benito Mussolini signed this treaty recognizing the pope as the sovereign of Vatican City.  The Vatican was paid $100 million for real estate seizures and allowed to reinstate its property holdings in Rome (Vatican city).

In the intervening years, there was no pope at all - no head of the Roman Catholic church.  Thus a head (horn) of the Sea Beast was mortally wounded (the Pope actually died) and was later healed/reinstated by Fascist dictator Benito Mussolini.

Neither history nor the Bible implies or suggests Jews had anything to do with these events.   Please read your Bible without prejudiced doctrine in mind.   

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) Jimmie Baker was a noted TV evangelist from the 1980's who was arrested and did prison time for real estate fraud.  He has since testified that the FIRST TIME he read the Bible from cover to cover was when he had a lot of time on his hands in prison.   Mr. Baker is out of stir now and is hosting yet another TV show to promote his bogus gospels.

  This is all 7th day adventist stuff.

  The antichrist will be one man. Both he & his empire will be the 'sea beast'. And there were quite a few popes between 1798 & 1929. And the world did not marvel nor follow the RCC when the papacy was restored.

  The man will overthrow 3 rulers in a 10-nation coalition to attain power.

: robycop3  Fri Jul 17, 2020 - 05:00:49
  This is all 7th day adventist stuff.

  The antichrist will be one man. Both he & his empire will be the 'sea beast'. And there were quite a few popes between 1798 & 1929. And the world did not marvel nor follow the RCC when the papacy was restored.

  The man will overthrow 3 rulers in a 10-nation coalition to attain power.

And the world did not marvel nor follow the RCC when the papacy was restored.

The time was not right.

And now they have a Jesuit head. Always remember that and keepyour eyes and ears open.

: DaveW  Wed Jul 15, 2020 - 13:11:40Scripturally, there is no such thing as a "Spiritual Israel." Only Israel with believing gentiles grafted in.  Rom 11

Romans 11 details the distinction between national or ethnic Israel and spiritual Israel which Paul alluded to earlier in Romans 9: But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named" (vss. 6,7).

: DaveW  Wed Jul 15, 2020 - 13:11:40
Scripturally, there is no such thing as a "Spiritual Israel." Only Israel with believing gentiles grafted in.  Rom 11

It's true you can't find those words in Scripture verbatim.  And that phrase has sometimes been co-opted by anti-Semites throughout history, which causes me to shy away from it.

Nonetheless, there is definitely a New Testament doctrine of heredity that is contrary to the practice of reckoning who-is-an-Israelite by genealogy.

In Matthew 3, John the Baptist identifies the Jewish leaders as "born of vipers," and tells them not to advertise themselves as "children of Abraham."  He proceeds to proclaim that God can raise up children to Abraham from the stones, and links this to baptism and repentance.

In John 8, Jesus first acknowledges the Pharisees as "seed of Abraham," but immediately after discredits them as Abraham's children based on their behavior, labeling them as "children of the devil" and saying their forefathers were those who "stoned the prophets."   "Ye do the deeds of your father," says Jesus, establishing behavior as the Biblical criteria for heredity, rather than genealogy.

Matthew 7 contains an even clearer statement of the same doctrine:

Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.  A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.  Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.  Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Paul tells us to avoid useless genealogies twice.  He defines the body of believers in opposition to "Israel after the flesh" in one epistle and the "election" in opposition to "Israel" in Romans.

It isn't wrong to say that Gentiles are grafted in, but it might be an understatement.  As I understand the Old Testament prophets, they say that Israel was sentenced to death, but that a promise remained that God would resurrect Israel, and that the resurrected Israel would be (re)born out of the Goyim.

Jarrod

    God made specifis promises about literal, national Israel & Judah to Abe, Ike, & Jake.

   Now, while anyone, Israeli or gentile, can become a Christian, one can only be an Israeli by ancestry. And Paul, speaking on authority from Jesus, reminded the peanut gallery that God had NOT discarded Israel, that he, also, was a Jew.

  Now, no one with a lick of sense can deny that the establishment of modern Israel was a miracle, against all human odds. And it occurred, despite most Jews rejecting Jesus as Messiah & Savior. It was because God had said He'd do it, & He's gonna make Judah & Israel mone nation again, as well, as He said.

 

: robycop3  Thu Jul 23, 2020 - 15:42:28
anyone, Israeli or gentile, can become a Christian, one can only be an Israeli by ancestry.

I have one word for you - adoption.

It's kind of a big deal in the Bible.

  But it doesn't make a gentile into an Israeli.

My wife & I are white. If we were to adopt a black child, would it make that child white ?

: robycop3  Sat Jul 25, 2020 - 06:21:58
But it doesn't make a gentile into an Israeli.

Yes, it does.

: robycop3  Sat Jul 25, 2020 - 06:21:58
My wife & I are white. If we were to adopt a black child, would it make that child white ?

Irrelevant.

If you and your wife were Jewish, and you were to adopt a black child, would it make that child Jewish?  Yes, it would, provided that he fulfilled the conditions set out.

If you're Christian, and you adopt a child of ANY color, and your raise him to be God-fearing, and he is baptized a Christian at an accountable age, he is a Christian.  Who would argue with that?

Maybe you should re-read my post above on the Biblical criteria for reckoning "who is a child of Abraham?"  It explicitly ISN'T genealogy.

Jarrod

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Mon Jul 27, 2020 - 16:29:14
Yes, it does.
Irrelevant.

If you and your wife were Jewish, and you were to adopt a black child, would it make that child Jewish?  Yes, it would, provided that he fulfilled the conditions set out.

If you're Christian, and you adopt a child of ANY color, and your raise him to be God-fearing, and he is baptized a Christian at an accountable age, he is a Christian.  Who would argue with that?

Maybe you should re-read my post above on the Biblical criteria for reckoning "who is a child of Abraham?"  It explicitly ISN'T genealogy.

Jarrod

  But God made specific promises to literal Israel, and the establishment of modern Israel, against all human odds, is nothing short of miraculous. And remember, God made it plain to Paul that He hadn't abandoned the Israeli people.

God never abandoned the "children of promise", which included those of the faithful "remnant" of ethnic Israelites - the "election" which had obtained the promise.

According to John 1:13, God's true children as the sons of God are born...

"not of blood" (by Israelite racial descent),

"nor of the will of the flesh"  (as the celestial-fleshed angelic sons of God in Gen. 6:1-4 married human women to produce hybrid angel-human children),

"nor of the will of man" (by the futile efforts of mankind "going about to establish their own righteousness" before God - Rom. 10:3)

"But OF GOD" (because "OF HIM are ye in Christ Jesus...I Cor. 1:30)

You're not really a racist, robycop3, you just come across as a race-aholic.

: robycop3  Sat Jul 25, 2020 - 06:21:58
  But it doesn't make a gentile into an Israeli.

My wife & I are white. If we were to adopt a black child, would it make that child white ?

Actually it does.  Not genetically of course, but spiritually it does. And the bible is not interested in genetics. Formal conversion (last step being circumcision) makes one just as much Jewish as chief rabbi of Israel.

Galatians 5:3
And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.

The Law was written to Israel, not the other nations.

: robycop3  Sat Jul 25, 2020 - 06:21:58
  But it doesn't make a gentile into an Israeli.

My wife & I are white. If we were to adopt a black child, would it make that child white ?

After my birth mom died and my dad remarried... my new mom adopted me legally.

Last year... needing to get my enhanced drivers license I went to apply and the copy of my birth certificate... given out at the hospital... was only a birth announcement and was not acceptable.

So I had to apply for and get a new one from the state.

I was a little surprised to see that on the legitimate birth certificate that came from the state that my adoptive mom was listed as my mother.

All else remained the same.....

So, legally and according to the state she is my mother. And any future family geneologist checking back and seeing this will
naturally say this great Italian lady is my  mom and that this half German half scot/irish mix must also be hald Italian rofl

In your example no... not white.... But if you do a legal adoption... that child would be considered to be equal to any natural born you would have ::tippinghat::

Let's return to the original thrust of the post for a moment.  I disagree with the identification of the great city as Jerusalem.  The overtly secular power attributed to it in Revelation as well as the description of it as the city that sits on seven hills clearly identify this city as ancient Rome, the traditional identification until the recent push by the early daters of Revelation of the City as Jerusalem.  I am not going to list the arguments here for an AD 93 dating of Revelation, they are well known and available on the web.  What I am going to propose is that much of the book of Revelation should be interpreted as a spiritual metaphor for the conflict between the early Church and the Roman empire.  If the lions share of the book is to mapped onto history between the time of Christ and the fall of Rome, which the text strongly implies, the the two Beasts of Revelation 13 should map to two kingdoms arising and falling consecutively during this period.  The only two kingdoms that fit this criteria are the early pagan and later "ostensibly" christian Roman empires.  Please see "The Two Beasts of Revelation 13 Identified" on scribd for a treatment of this hypothesis.

: DanielConway  Fri Jul 31, 2020 - 08:22:40
Let's return to the original thrust of the post for a moment.  I disagree with the identification of the great city as Jerusalem.  The overtly secular power attributed to it in Revelation as well as the description of it as the city that sits on seven hills clearly identify this city as ancient Rome, the traditional identification until the recent push by the early daters of Revelation of the City as Jerusalem.  I am not going to list the arguments here for an AD 93 dating of Revelation, they are well known and available on the web.  What I am going to propose is that much of the book of Revelation should be interpreted as a spiritual metaphor for the conflict between the early Church and the Roman empire.  If the lions share of the book is to mapped onto history between the time of Christ and the fall of Rome, which the text strongly implies, the the two Beasts of Revelation 13 should map to two kingdoms arising and falling consecutively during this period.  The only two kingdoms that fit this criteria are the early pagan and later "ostensibly" christian Roman empires.  Please see "The Two Beasts of Revelation 13 Identified" on scribd for a treatment of this hypothesis.

As you can see by my signature line I am definitely into the later date of Revelation.

But if Revelation should be interpreted as a "spiritual metaphor" why would you suppose that John thought it was a revelation  and wrote it as though it was  fact?

And the most oddity would be... if it was a metaphore, what  purpose would the warning

Rev 22:19 "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

For John said this is a book of prophecy....

And is followed by

20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

I have to say calling Revelation a spiritual methaphor does not tally with Rev 19 and/or 20.

: DaveW  Thu Jul 30, 2020 - 06:31:29
Actually it does.  Not genetically of course, but spiritually it does. And the bible is not interested in genetics. Formal conversion (last step being circumcision) makes one just as much Jewish as chief rabbi of Israel.

Galatians 5:3
And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.

The Law was written to Israel, not the other nations.

The remnant of Israel who accepted Jesus Christ as their promised Messiah and King, became the true Israel of God in contradiction to those who rejected Him. Those Jews, the disciples among them, formed the new covenant church or Israel of God. They accepted the teachings of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and the changes made in relation especially to the civil and ceremonial laws of literal Israel, concerning new covenant Israel in Christ Jesus. The Jews who accepted their Messiah Jesus Christ as such for the entire world became the true Israel of God, those who rejected Him had the kingdom taken away from them.

Mat 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: 34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. 35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. 36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. 37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. 38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. 40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? 41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. 42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God, 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

1 Cor 7:19 For circumcision is nothing and counts for nothing, neither does uncircumcision, but [what counts is] keeping the commandments of God.(AMPC)

: robycop3  Fri Jul 17, 2020 - 05:00:49
  This is all 7th day adventist stuff.

  The antichrist will be one man. Both he & his empire will be the 'sea beast'. And there were quite a few popes between 1798 & 1929. And the world did not marvel nor follow the RCC when the papacy was restored.

  The man will overthrow 3 rulers in a 10-nation coalition to attain power.

To the contrary, most of it is simply recorded history. As far as the beasts representing kingdoms or nations, this was believed by many a Christian long long before there ever was an SDA.

: Rella  Fri Jul 31, 2020 - 12:56:49
As you can see by my signature line I am definitely into the later date of Revelation.

But if Revelation should be interpreted as a "spiritual metaphor" why would you suppose that John thought it was a revelation  and wrote it as though it was  fact?

And the most oddity would be... if it was a metaphore, what  purpose would the warning

Rev 22:19 "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

For John said this is a book of prophecy....

And is followed by

20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

I have to say calling Revelation a spiritual methaphor does not tally with Rev 19 and/or 20.

Define your terms.  I don't think you believe that when John sees a beast arising up out of the sea or out of the land he means there are going to be literal monsters stalking around the planet.  They are symbols, AKA metaphors, for kingdoms.  By the same argument the bowl judgements poured out on the beast and his kingdom are probably symbols, metaphors, for the horrible afflictions that God poured out on the Roman Empire during the Imperial crisis, barbarian invasions, plagues, famines, civil wars, invasions by the Persian Empire, and such.  You see, it is possible for a metaphor to represent something quite real.  I suggest you make a study of the apocalyptic literature that was floating around the Roman Empire during this period.  It was a genre unto itself of which Revelation was only one.  Admittedly Revelation was the only canonical apocalyptic, but God often condescends to speak to us in a language we understand, and to understand how the church of John's day would have interpreted Revelation you would do to make a study of this aspect of the culture.

The remnant of Israel who accepted Jesus Christ as their promised Messiah and King, became the true Israel of God in contradiction to those who rejected Him.

Amo you KNOW that is replacement theology and in error.  the believing Gentiles do not become "the true Israel of God;" but are added to it. Romans 11 makes it clear that much of the the true Israel of God are "enemies of the gospel."

The true Israel IS the righteous remnant. The natural branches that have been broken off of the olive tree are lost (the remnant of thebonesbvrafted BACK on is the true Israel of God, along with the grafted on Gentile Christians). The broken Off branches that have been grafted BACK on CANNOT BE ENEMIES of God, they are HIS! The ones NOT grafted back on ARE ememies of God and NOT the true Israel of God. The Israel of  God is simply His people, Jew or Gentile.

: DanielConway  Sat Aug 01, 2020 - 10:24:09
Define your terms.  I don't think you believe that when John sees a beast arising up out of the sea or out of the land he means there are going to be literal monsters stalking around the planet.

Why not?

They are symbols, AKA metaphors, for kingdoms.

They may be symbols for kingdoms but you definitively cannot say they physically will not be.

To address your assumption of what I door do not believe, I believe both symbol and kingdom but not metaphors because whatever arises from sea or land will not be from our heavenly Father but will certainly be representative of a kingdom and its fall.

By the same argument the bowl judgements poured out on the beast and his kingdom are probably symbols, metaphors, for the horrible afflictions that God poured out on the Roman Empire during the Imperial crisis, barbarian invasions, plagues, famines, civil wars, invasions by the Persian Empire, and such.

Your use of probably tells a lot. It tells me you are not certain of what you say here.

  You see, it is possible for a metaphor to represent something quite real.  I suggest you make a study of the apocalyptic literature that was floating around the Roman Empire during this period.  It was a genre unto itself of which Revelation was only one.  Admittedly Revelation was the only canonical apocalyptic, but God often condescends to speak to us in a language we understand, and to understand how the church of John's day would have interpreted Revelation you would do to make a study of this aspect of the culture.

::frown::

Spin things as you will. When God does deem  to speak to us in a language we understand,no matter what age it is... metaphorically is not the way.

There is simply no way to make this verse applicable to a book of metaphors.

Rev22:19

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Daniel was told. 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Revelation IS the time of the end.It is prophecy as God said.

Jaime -  you need to re-read Romans 11 and pay close attention to the wording. Paul includes in "Israel" those who are enemies of the gospel. And he also says that the wild branches that got grafted in are supported by the root, and not the other way around.

I think YOU need to re-read. The grafted back on natural branches are NOT the enemies of God. Those that remain broken off ARE enemies of God.

There is ethnic Israel and the Israel of God. I am not saying at all that ethnic Israel is rhe Israel of God. Yes many or most of Ethnic Israel are enemies of God. But NOT the grafted back on ones. The fact they are grafted back on gives them the same starus as us, the grafted on wild branches or Gentiles. The true Israel of God, the olive tree  consists of grafted on natural and wild branches, NOT ALL of either by any stretch. The context of the texts tells you which one is referred to Ethnic or National Isreal or the Israel of God, which is the people of God. The word Israel has dual meanings in this regard, and not interchangeable.

When it says all of Israel will be saved, I believe it is referring to the Israel of God or His people, the hearers and responders to the gospel. We both know that ethnic or national Israel IS NOT in that category. Will more and more convert in the future? I don't know. We do know from Romans 11 that a partial blindness has befallen the Majority of the Jews until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. Until we individual wild branches convert and are grafted on, WE were enemies of God.

I never said the grafted back ( or those never broken off) were enemies.  I was saying those who are broken off and are enemies are still part of Israel.

You are making a false separation between branches. 

: DaveW  Wed Aug 05, 2020 - 07:04:18
I never said the grafted back ( or those never broken off) were enemies.  I was saying those who are broken off and are enemies are still part of Israel.

You are making a false separation between branches.

They are a part of ethnic or natural Israel.  They are not a part of Spiritual Israel, i.e., the children of promise.  They are the ones counted as children of Abraham, i.e., Spiritual Israel.

Rom 9:6  But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,
Rom 9:7  and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named."
Rom 9:8  This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

You are correct 4WD. We have to keep up with which Israel we are talking about physical Israel or Spiritual Israel. We as Christians are part of the true Israel, spiritual Israel. The enemies of God that are Jewish are not part of true Israel or Spiritual Israel. Dave, I assume we differ on semantics or something because this is such an elementary concept.

And yes both types of branches grafted on are supported by the root. The only difference in the roots is the natural branches are Jewish and the wild branches are Gentile. Attached to the root, they ARE God's people. If they are not attached to the root, they are enemies of God. THAT is what Paul was talking about.

: 4WD  Wed Aug 05, 2020 - 07:27:20
They are a part of ethnic or natural Israel.  They are not a part of Spiritual Israel,

Israel is Israel.  Period.  there is not a "natural" and a "spiritual" division. 

Yes there is Dave you are missing it.

Wrong -  I used to "see" it too.  But later on realized it was an evangelical christian myth.  Part of replacement theology which I ultimately rejected.

: Jaime  Tue Aug 04, 2020 - 17:46:29
The true Israel IS the righteous remnant. The natural branches that have been broken off of the olive tree are lost (the remnant of thebonesbvrafted BACK on is the true Israel of God, along with the grafted on Gentile Christians). The broken Off branches that have been grafted BACK on CANNOT BE ENEMIES of God, they are HIS! The ones NOT grafted back on ARE ememies of God and NOT the true Israel of God. The Israel of  God is simply His people, Jew or Gentile.

+1

: DaveW  Wed Aug 05, 2020 - 05:08:30
Jaime -  you need to re-read Romans 11 and pay close attention to the wording. Paul includes in "Israel" those who are enemies of the gospel. And he also says that the wild branches that got grafted in are supported by the root, and not the other way around.

The root is Jesus, not Israel.

Rella, consider your own citations.  The Book of Daniel makes extensive use of metaphor.  The statue that Daniel sees with the head of gold, the chest of silver, the waist of bronze and the legs of iron and iron mixed with clay is deciphered by scripture itself as a symbol, a metaphor for the kingdoms that will arise in the ancient near east.  If you cite and presumably believe and understand Daniel you are essentially compelled to acknowledge God's use of symbolism, metaphor, to communicate his intentions to his people.  Consider the four beasts of Daniel's dream.  Symbols, metaphors for the same kingdoms in the same period.  Do you believe that? Try to be consistent in the rules you adopt for biblical interpretation.

: DanielConway  Wed Aug 05, 2020 - 13:26:21
Rella, consider your own citations.  The Book of Daniel makes extensive use of metaphor.  The statue that Daniel sees with the head of gold, the chest of silver, the waist of bronze and the legs of iron and iron mixed with clay is deciphered by scripture itself as a symbol, a metaphor for the kingdoms that will arise in the ancient near east.  If you cite and presumably believe and understand Daniel you are essentially compelled to acknowledge God's use of symbolism, metaphor, to communicate his intentions to his people.  Consider the four beasts of Daniel's dream.  Symbols, metaphors for the same kingdoms in the same period.  Do you believe that? Try to be consistent in the rules you adopt for biblical interpretation.

Daniel,

Why can you not understand that a metaphor is a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable.

This is not descriptive of the vision/dream that Nebuchadnezzar had.

The head of gold, the chest of silver, the waist of bronze and the legs of iron and iron mixed with clay was a specific thought in Nebuchadnezzar's mind that he demanded what it meant.

It was able to be precisely explained by Daniel,down to the minutest detail.

Yes, God uses a lot of symbolism, through out the entire bible.... but it isnot a metaphor of which you seem to be hung up on.

Cambridge Dictionery defines it as

an expression, often found in literature, that describes a person or object by referring to something that is considered to have similar characteristics to that person or object:

"The mind is an ocean" and "the city is a jungle" are both metaphors.

Metaphor and simile are the most commonly used figures of speech in everyday language.

I see  Nebuchadnezzar's dream as something he specifically dreamed. Of an odd looking statue, that he needed explained and his statue was that of varied varied kingdoms.

That may have been an accurate interpretation but also it would have been possible to create a physical example of that statue which to my mind keeps it away from the metaphor realm.


One that could well have sat between a map or reminder of each and every kingdom that Daniel had mentioned.

The kingdoms were very real. So would a representative statue.

Not something quasi elusive as a real metaphor which may be representative of
of an idea, but remains an idea rather then fact.

: DaveW  Wed Aug 05, 2020 - 08:53:57Israel is Israel.  Period.  there is not a "natural" and a "spiritual" division.

Dave, WHATEVER you are smoking, PLEASE STOP~you are not reading the word of God very clearly. 

AMEN to That RB ! ! !

: DaveW  Wed Aug 05, 2020 - 05:08:30Jaime -  you need to re-read Romans 11 and pay close attention to the wording. Paul includes in "Israel" those who are enemies of the gospel. And he also says that the wild branches that got grafted in are supported by the root, and not the other way around.

Greetings Dave~Jaime, you, and I, can and should constantly re-read all of Romans, for it is not as easy as many think that it is. You said:

: DaveW Reply #141 on: Yesterday at 05:08:30Paul includes in "Israel" those who are enemies of the gospel.

WHICH ISRAEL is the question! Let us consider these very words, for they are part of a HIDDEN mystery in the OT .

Romans 11:25~"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery."~Dave, you know what a mystery is~ WE BOTH know that without God's revelation, it cannot be known by natural observation or reason. IMPOSSIBLE.

Paul started back in 9:1-5 with a burden for Israel, pursued it (10:1-4), and then explained it here. Dave, it is a mystery per Paul not Jaime, 4WD, RB, etc., then it cannot be observed or known by natural ability, inferring blind elect here!

Dave, the salvation of Israel described in the next verses (11:25-29) answers the question posed in 11:11. The mystery is Gentiles benefitting by Israel blindness! Read 11:25-32 and follow the reasoning. Benefitting with TRUE KNOWLEDGE of Jesus Christ, while many of natural Israel, who was ALSO part of the election of grace still fighting Paul as Paul did to the church earlier in his life before conversion. But in the end ALL of Israel, that is, the election of grace SHALL BE SAVED, though at the time of reformation going form OT to NT many of the true spiritual seed of Abraham had TROUBLE seeing these hidden mysteries in the scriptures JUST AS some of God's children do even in our day.

"Lest ye should be wise in your own conceits."~Paul's concern is not that Gentiles were ignorant of a future Jewish revival or restored national preeminence, for he does not say anything toward that Jewish fable whatsoever in the context. It is FORCED into these scriptures. Understanding God's mysteries are NOT easy, yet, some people glory in truth with a very proud spirit, and become very harmful in leading even the very elect into truths. 

One of the reasons for Paul disclosing this secret will of God was to teach humility to the Gentiles. So his earlier explanation that elect Jews were blind for Gentiles to get the gospel (11:11-15). So his earlier explanation that the firstfruit and lump were holy, sanctified by God (11:16-18). So his earlier explanation that the Gentiles should not boast about Jewish unbelief (11:19-21). So his earlier explanation about God's sovereign judgment and Jewish recovery (11:22-24).

Without this news, Gentiles would have despised the Jews for unbelief and gloried in themselves. Three reasons against conceit: they are elect; they are blind for the Gentiles; they will be recovered. When Jesus Christ come again, we ALL will then be free of our errors, especially so of those HIDDEN MYSTERIES.

"That blindness in part is happened to Israel."~This is not blindness of reprobation in national Israel caused by the election of grace (11:1-10), for the apostle has been pursuing since then the very different matter of blind elect Jews (11:11-24). The overall blindness of the nation is not much of a mystery~it was visible and typical of Jews from their very beginning.

There was blindness in part that was atypical, not observable, and intended for Gentile benefits! These special Jews were blind to Christ but elected through grace by patriarchal covenant (11:28)~ just as many Gentiles were!

Only part of elect Israel was blind to Christ, for there were Paul and thousands of Jewish converts. The blindness in part to Israel here is the same as "some of the branches" broken off in 11:17.
The purpose for blinding of elect Israelites was for the gospel to go to the Gentiles (11:11); once the gospel was received by Gentiles, there was no further need for Jewish blindness (11:30-32). But is very much true of some of the elect GENTILES, who are at times enemies to Christ's gospel, NOT purposely bit just plain spiritual ignorance, even though they display love, fear, and zeal of God~Romans 10:1-4, etc. Selah.

"Until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."~Two questions must be answered: What is the fulness of the Gentiles? When would it occur? The fulness of the Gentiles was the transfer of the gospel and kingdom privileges to the Gentiles. This was the great Israel-Gentile kingdom event of Paul's generation and ministry (Matthew 8:11-12; 10:5-6; 21:40-43; 22:1-10; John 10:16; 11:49-52; Acts 1:8; 10:45; 11:18; 13:42-49; 15:12-14; 28:23-29; Romans 15:8-12; Gal 3:28-29; 4:21-31; Ephesians 2:11-22; 3:1-13; Hebrews 9:10; 13:14 ).

The issue here is Jewish blindness to redirect the gospel to Gentiles, which is 2000 years past, for the context shows that Gentile's goal the reason for Israel's blindness ( 11:11-12,17,19,28,30 ).

Paul already used fulness of Israel in context, and it has to do with conversion, not time (11:12).

Grasp the predominately qualitative sense of fulness from 11:12 by contrast to Israel's fall and diminishing e.g. riches, salvation, conversion, gospel and kingdom privileges, etc. Paul's idea of fulness of converting blind Jews from the dead was then~ by his efforts (11:14), and keep in mind that Israel's fulness could only occur after Gentile fulness had been realized.
Paul's appeal to Gentiles was for their enthusiasm toward such a recovery of Israel (11:11-15), which requires a preceding and producing fulness of the Gentiles for such evangelistic efforts.

The fulness of the Gentiles is the gospel being redirected to them with rich worldwide results. Fulness be come in is the final stage as the BODY OF CHRIST considered, with mostly Gentiles coming in at last. There is no reason for this to be when all Gentiles have been converted at the end of the world, THEN God will turn BACK to the Jewish nation~for the phrase does not require that and such an interpretation has insurmountable difficulties all through the NT that were written by "JEWISH" apostles, etc.

Which Israel? Our answer is clearly seen starting with verse 26-down to the end of the chapter~maybe later....RB

: RB  Thu Aug 06, 2020 - 04:24:00WHICH ISRAEL is the question!

Red, you are reading the text with the ASSUMPTION of 2 Israels; something the strict text of scripture NEVER supports.

: DaveW  Thu Aug 06, 2020 - 05:21:17
Red, you are reading the text with the ASSUMPTION of 2 Israels; something the strict text of scripture NEVER supports.

Dave see reply # 153. Later, I will post an in-depth post on the two Israel. But you must put your "pipe" down so your mind can clear up.

: RB  Thu Aug 06, 2020 - 05:43:46
Dave see reply # 153. Later, I will post an in-depth post on the two Israel. But you must put your "pipe" down so your mind can clear up.

Romans 11 pt 1    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nj4Vnb-b08w    Start at 49:00

Romans 11 pt 2     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DO2G_Jxk6V0    Start at 54:30

There will be 2 more sermons on this

Rella, whether the word I use is simile, symbol, or metaphor, the idea is the same.  An object with certain characteristics is used to represent a real object with corresponding characteristics.  If you are dubious about the bible using language that matches your formal definition of metaphor, consider the song of songs. "I am the Rose of Sharon, the lily of the valleys.  Like an apple tree among the trees of the forest is my lover among the your men."  Your assertion that a metaphor can only be used to represent something metaphysical or unbiblically ethaerial is incorrect, as the example from the song illustrates. However, if you prefer, I will recast my argument using the word symbol.  I assert that if the beasts of Daniel are to be interpreted as symbols for the four kingdoms that dominated the medaterianian during the period between Israel's excile and the fall of Rome, then the two beasts of Revelation should also be interpreted as symbols for kingdoms that ruled the area between Christ's ministry and the fall of Rome, and that the only two kingdom's that meet that criteria are the early pagan and later Constantinian Roman empires.

: DaveW  Thu Aug 06, 2020 - 10:19:13
Romans 11 pt 1    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nj4Vnb-b08w    Start at 49:00

Romans 11 pt 2     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DO2G_Jxk6V0    Start at 54:30

There will be 2 more sermons on this

Dave, I will read ( or listen ) to all that you send and respond accordingly if you promise to answer my response to you.

: DanielConway  Thu Aug 06, 2020 - 12:43:37
Rella, whether the word I use is simile, symbol, or metaphor, the idea is the same.  An object with certain characteristics is used to represent a real object with corresponding characteristics.  If you are dubious about the bible using language that matches your formal definition of metaphor, consider the song of songs. "I am the Rose of Sharon, the lily of the valleys.  Like an apple tree among the trees of the forest is my lover among the your men."  Your assertion that a metaphor can only be used to represent something metaphysical or unbiblically ethaerial is incorrect, as the example from the song illustrates. However, if you prefer, I will recast my argument using the word symbol.  I assert that if the beasts of Daniel are to be interpreted as symbols for the four kingdoms that dominated the medaterianian during the period between Israel's excile and the fall of Rome, then the two beasts of Revelation should also be interpreted as symbols for kingdoms that ruled the area between Christ's ministry and the fall of Rome, and that the only two kingdom's that meet that criteria are the early pagan and later Constantinian Roman empires.

"Rella, whether the word I use is simile, symbol, or metaphor, the idea is the same.  An object with certain characteristics is used to represent a real object with corresponding characteristics."

Which is exactly my point.  Representation of real objects.

But most who post the "metaphor" argument post with the idea that Rev is not a true prophesy. It is the same argument they use in other areas of the bible
that offered somewhat questionable accounts and ideas that are not clear.

From Genesis and onward in spots.

I have zero doubt that Revelation is as written and follows "end times" prophesy, but among those who don't are the preterists, who twist what they read to fit their dialogue.

Revelation is not also  a parable, as others have suggested. It is descriptive of what to expect, using objects and things that are designed to bring fear to those who read it. To talk of it otherwise..... ::doh::

If you see it differently... Fine.

But this is where I stand.

: RB  Thu Aug 06, 2020 - 15:07:49Dave, I will read ( or listen ) to all that you send and respond accordingly if you promise to answer my response to you.

I will answer, but perhaps not immediately. 

We are in the process of selling our townhouse for a single family farmhouse and are rather busy for the next several weeks.

Rom 9:1  I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, 2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. 3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. 6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Those of the true new covenant Israel, are of the child of promise, Jesus Christ. Those who are not, are no longer of Israel.

Gal 6:11 Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand. 12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. 13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh. 14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. 15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. 16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

The Israel of God is in Christ Jesus. None who are not in Christ Jesus are the Israel of God. The kingdom of God has been taken away from all but those in Christ Jesus.

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

The Israel of God is built upon the apostles and prophets, and Jesus Himself is the chief corner stone. None who reject Jesus Christ are the Israel of God. The kingdom has been taken away from all such.

Mat 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: 34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. 35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. 36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. 37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. 38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. 40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? 41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. 42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. 45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

The kingdom of God has been taken away from everyone, including all Jews, who follow the example of the priests and Pharisees above in rejecting the chief corner stone of our faith Jesus Christ as the promised Messiah of Israel and the entire world.

  point is, God is NOT done with physical, literal Israel. The unmistakable sign of the re-establishment of the Jewish sovereign state should make that fact very-obvious.

: robycop3  Sat Aug 08, 2020 - 06:17:47
  point is, God is NOT done with physical, literal Israel. The unmistakable sign of the re-establishment of the Jewish sovereign state should make that fact very-obvious.

Pure premillennial Bovine Scat.

: 4WD  Sat Aug 08, 2020 - 06:27:37
Pure premillennial Bovine Scat.

You make premillennial believers sound like we are demented at worst or unworthy to voice an opinion at best as we are something to be scraped off the bottom of your shoes.

I happen to agree with robycop3 on this one.

But then, you and I have been at opposite ends on most things so why change now?  rofl

: Rella  Sat Aug 08, 2020 - 11:56:19
You make premillennial believers sound like we are demented at worst or unworthy to voice an opinion at best as we are something to be scraped off the bottom of your shoes.

I happen to agree with robycop3 on this one.

But then, you and I have been at opposite ends on most things so why change now?  rofl

Rella, I said nothing about being demented or unworthy of anything.  Besides, few here are more critical than you concerning anything you don't agree with.

If you object to my reference to Bovine Scat, then just let me say that it was pure biblical error.

: 4WD  Sat Aug 08, 2020 - 12:10:45
Rella, I said nothing about being demented or unworthy of anything.  Besides, few here are more critical than you concerning anything you don't agree with.

If you object to my reference to Bovine Scat, then just let me say that it was pure biblical error.

  So God was wrong when he said He would make Israel & Judah one nation again, and restore their fortunes ? Again, I refer to modern Israel as being an unmistakable manifestation of the beginning of that restoration. Of course I recognize the fact that most Jews aren't Christians, but the founding of modern Israel & their having their capital in Jerusalem wasn't just lucky chance.

: robycop3  Sun Aug 09, 2020 - 04:34:07
So God was wrong when he said He would make Israel & Judah one nation again, and restore their fortunes?

Why is it that you don't see that this already happened?

: DaveW  Thu Aug 06, 2020 - 10:19:13
Romans 11 pt 1    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nj4Vnb-b08w    Start at 49:00
Romans 11 pt 2     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DO2G_Jxk6V0    Start at 54:30
There will be 2 more sermons on this

Romans 11 pt 3:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylHWAdmV64s   Start at 59:00

BTW - ignore the fat guy in the white shirt in the background.  that is me.

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Mon Aug 10, 2020 - 20:09:38
Why is it that you don't see that this already happened?

Because it HASN'T. Modern Israel is JEWISH; none of them claim to be of any other tribe but Judah, Levi, or Benjamin.

: robycop3 link=topic=41497.Because it HASN'T. Modern Israel is JEWISH; none of them claim to be of any other tribe but Judah, Levi, or Benjamin.

https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/indigenous-tribe-returns-to-israel-after-27-centuries/

https://www.jpost.com/jewish-world/jewish-features/researcher-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-ephraim-in-india

https://shavei.org/bnei-ephraim/

: DaveW  Fri Aug 14, 2020 - 05:33:10
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/indigenous-tribe-returns-to-israel-after-27-centuries/

https://www.jpost.com/jewish-world/jewish-features/researcher-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-ephraim-in-india

https://shavei.org/bnei-ephraim/

  It shall be good if those people are actually descendants of Ephraim & Manasseh. That'll only leave 7 tribes to yet be identified.

  But we must remember those people are NOT JEWS. The Jews are only of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, & Levi. While all Jews are Israelis, not all Israelis are Jews.

Hey all.  This post is directed to the reading audience in general.  Most of you are familiar with my theory concerning the early and later Roman empires, some of you have read my paper developing this theory.  I would like to explore another theory I have, that the ten kings of Daniel and Revelation correspond to the barracks emperors of the Imperial crisis.  Developing this theory will require more accounting than pattern matching as my previous paper did, as it will require establishing which of the emperors qualify as a horn-king, that each of them hurt the city of Rome in some way, and that each of them persecuted the church.  In all frankness, some of this information may be lost, but I think it is worth a try.  I am recruiting scholars (lay or professional) to help me with this because it requires an in depth knowledge of the minutia of the period that I lack.  Full accreditation will be given to anyone who contributes. 

: robycop3  Sat Aug 15, 2020 - 07:27:14
But we must remember those people are NOT JEWS. The Jews are only of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, & Levi. While all Jews are Israelis, not all Israelis are Jews.

Actually, the term "Jew" has applied to all 12 tribes since the first century bc if not earlier.  There are mentions in rabbinic literature of a small number of the other northern tribes finding their way back to the Land since the time of Ezra and Nehemiah.  They are ALL referred to as Jews.

: robycop3  Thu Aug 13, 2020 - 15:22:08
Because it HASN'T. Modern Israel is JEWISH; none of them claim to be of any other tribe but Judah, Levi, or Benjamin.

Once upon a time, the Samaritans took up Jewish customs and religion, and began to identified themselves as Jewish.  But, it didn't make them Jewish.  The Bible rejects them as Jews, and so did the actual Jews.

Once upon a time, the Idumeans were all forcibly converted to Judaism.  Over time, they embraced their new religion, and began to identify themselves as Jewish.  But again, they weren't really.

Nowadays, we have a group of European people imported back into the historical lands of Israel, who identify themselves as Jews and Israelis.  Most of them don't practice the Jewish religion, or Christianity, or anything else.  Are they Jews?  Really?

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Thu Aug 20, 2020 - 03:38:17
Once upon a time, the Samaritans took up Jewish customs and religion, and began to identified themselves as Jewish.  But, it didn't make them Jewish.  The Bible rejects them as Jews, and so did the actual Jews.

Once upon a time, the Idumeans were all forcibly converted to Judaism.  Over time, they embraced their new religion, and began to identify themselves as Jewish.  But again, they weren't really.

Nowadays, we have a group of European people imported back into the historical lands of Israel, who identify themselves as Jews and Israelis.  Most of them don't practice the Jewish religion, or Christianity, or anything else.  Are they Jews?  Really?

  Given that most of them can trace their lines back to Roman times, and, given the history of the persecution they underwent, which culminated in the nazi holocaust, I believe they're really Jews. Now, many of them are of mixed ancestry, with their forebears being married into other peoples, but enough Jewishness remains in them to identify them as Jews. God certainly hasn't discarded Israel for good !

: robycop3  Fri Aug 21, 2020 - 17:18:09
  Given that most of them can trace their lines back to Roman times, and, given the history of the persecution they underwent, which culminated in the nazi holocaust, I believe they're really Jews. Now, many of them are of mixed ancestry, with their forebears being married into other peoples, but enough Jewishness remains in them to identify them as Jews. God certainly hasn't discarded Israel for good !

Of course YOU do.

Anybody who actually reads the posts want to side with roby?

Wy - you do not understand what it means to be a Jew.  A converted Jew is as much Jewish as a native born Jew. The only reason the Samaritans were not considered Jewish was their continued use of pagan idol worship.  When Ezra and Nehemiah came back from Babylon, most of the Jews left in the land had married foreign wives (with their idol worship) so they had to go.  So all this stuff about lineage is just fluff and smokescreen.

Tracing lines back is ONLY important for the kohanim (priests).

: DaveW  Tue Aug 25, 2020 - 05:15:25
Tracing lines back is ONLY important for the kohanim (priests).

Tracing lines back isn't important for the kohanim either, since that priesthood was annulled almost 2 millennia ago.

Also, check your PMs.

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Wed Aug 26, 2020 - 00:19:04
Tracing lines back isn't important for the kohanim either, since that priesthood was annulled almost 2 millennia ago.

I know of no traditional religious Jew that believes that. 

I have known several kohenim and Levites that have read up on what they will need to do if/when the Temple is rebuilt.  There is a group called the Temple Mount Faithful who have all the ritual articles for the temple ready to go when it is rebuilt.

Also, check your PMs.

I did.  I do not know, but your avatar suggests Scottish or Irish.

: DaveW  Wed Aug 26, 2020 - 05:25:41
I know of no traditional religious Jew that believes that.

Practicing traditional rabbinical Judaism is not what we have been talking about.  Also, it's not a very good criteria for determining who is Jewish, which IS what we have been talking about.

: DaveW  Wed Aug 26, 2020 - 05:25:41
I have known several kohenim and Levites that have read up on what they will need to do if/when the Temple is rebuilt.  There is a group called the Temple Mount Faithful who have all the ritual articles for the temple ready to go when it is rebuilt.

I'm aware of this, and I find it to be mis-guided.  A return to animal sacrifices is not something most Jewish people would embrace.  Even/especially the orthodox.  Did you miss the part of Judaism where the synagogue overtook the temple?  That had happened even before the 1st century.

: DaveW  Wed Aug 26, 2020 - 05:25:41
I have known several kohenim...

Me too.  I have lunch with a bunch of them on a regular basis.  At my house, we call that "lunch with the family."  rofl

I think I might "understand what it means to be a Jew" a little, Dave.  ::noworries::

Practicing traditional rabbinical Judaism is not what we have been talking about.  Also, it's not a very good criteria for determining who is Jewish, which IS what we have been talking about.

Traditional Jews have EVERY RIGHT to determine who is and who is NOT a Jew.  And yes, I have been talking about traditional Judaism.

: DaveW  Wed Aug 26, 2020 - 11:39:58
Traditional Jews have EVERY RIGHT to determine who is and who is NOT a Jew.  And yes, I have been talking about traditional Judaism.

The Jewish criteria for determining Jewishness does not involve the practice of any religion.  Most Jews today fall on the scale somewhere between atheists and deists.  Those following rabbinical thought are a shrinking minority.

Why are YOU using THAT as a criteria when even Jews don't?  ::headscratch::

And don't tell me you got it from Christianity.  The Bible explicitly tells us to ignore genealogies, and to determine ancestry by looking at behavior.

Jarrod

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Wed Aug 26, 2020 - 15:15:41
The Jewish criteria for determining Jewishness does not involve the practice of any religion.  Most Jews today fall on the scale somewhere between atheists and deists.  Those following rabbinical thought are a shrinking minority.

Why are YOU using THAT as a criteria when even Jews don't?  ::headscratch::

And don't tell me you got it from Christianity.  The Bible explicitly tells us to ignore genealogies, and to determine ancestry by looking at behavior.

Jarrod

  A Jew is a Jew by ancestry. yes, I'm awaye of SPIRITUAL Israel, but God is not through with LITERAL Israel.  And remember, the names of the 12 tribes of Israel will be on the foundation of the New Jerusalem.

: robycop3  Fri Aug 28, 2020 - 15:02:42
A Jew is a Jew by ancestry.

How do you figure to reckon it, though?

The rabbis follow matriarchal bloodlines - i.e. if you're mom's Jewish, you're Jewish.  They have done so since roughly the beginning of the 2nd century.  But for the entire Old Testament period, bloodlines were patriarchal - determined by the father.

Why did they make that change?  It's because patriarchal bloodlines are UNRELIABLE.  You can always tell who the baby's mother is.  Unfortunately, the same can't be said about fathers.  For the Jews, whose history includes centuries of engaging in fertility cults, as well as being deported from their country in antiquity, those patriarchal genealogies are absolutely useless.  They are corrupt even from before the times of the earliest ones.  And consider the northern kingdom... they were slaughtered wholesale and the remnants dispersed to the four corners of the world.  They don't even HAVE genealogies, though they certainly have descendants.

The Jews of the New Testament period knew this.  They debated about it.  We still have records of the positions taken by Hillel and Shammai with regards to solving the problem.  Eventually, the debate was settled and the Jews changed to matriarchal lines.

But that solution does NOTHING to address the problem retroactively.  You still have centuries and centuries of unreliable paternity that you're trying to build on.  Plus, you have thousands or millions or people who are genuinely Israelite descendants, but don't even know it, having lost their cultural identity.

There was another position suggested by a rabbi during that time period, but Judaism ultimately did not adopt that position.  That position was that the true paternity of Jews (and even lost Israelites!) could be determined by observing their behavior.  Those who kept the law were Abraham's true descendants.  What rabbi who taught such a thing?  Jesus of Nazareth.

You see, what you call "spiritual Israel" was not spiritual at all to them in the 1st century.  It was a practical, pragmatic approach to solving the question of "who is a Jew?"

Jarrod

Hmmm, I was just skimming over this post again from a while back and just noticed something that robycop3 said in comment #185 that is totally bogus.

He wrote that the names of the 12 TRIBES are on the foundation of the New Jerusalem.  That's wrong.  It is the names of the 12 APOSTLES OF THE LAMB having priority that this New Jerusalem sits upon, as Rev. 21:14 tells us.  With Christ as the "chief cornerstone", of course.  And with the 12 GATES named after the 12 tribes instead.

Foundation stones being laid down are heavily highlighted in scripture.  There is great symbolic import in their being put into position; many times with the specific dates given for those occasions.  It is no accident that the 12 APOSTLES form the supporting base that the New Jerusalem structure is built upon.  Because Christ said that the 12 APOSTLES would sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel in the days of the early church after Christ had been resurrected and ascended (Matt. 19:28). 

Robycop3 would probably wish to have that flipped upside down in the New Jerusalem, with the 12 tribes judging the 12 Apostles instead.

I think that's what they call a "Freudian slip".

: Bikelite  Sun Jan 17, 2010 - 20:53:29
The women represents apostate Jerusalem....... I dont think so....... more MAN words.... not biblical!

Biblical imagery often connotes multiple interpretations. 

Preachers have been milking the different implications of scripture for centuries.  The bottom line here is that scripture isn't limited to a single interpretation.   Appropriate understanding comes from knowing the Bible as a whole - a difficult task for a life long scholar and an impossible one for most folks who are only familiar with secular propaganda, political extremism, buzz words and religious slogans.

MAN words aren't four letter words, not in the Bible anyway.   Misandric attitudes pollute American society, driven by satanic motivations for supremacy of one group over another at the expense of the other.  As a result, none are motivated to a true devotion to God's honest Word.

In this has American society chosen to bring a curse upon itself.   We deliberately turn our backs upon God and each other - seeking the advantage of our special interest group and losing God's blessing for all. 

IF GOD DOES NOT JUDGE AMERICA HE WILL HAVE TO APOLOGIZE TO SODOM AND GOMORRAH.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

God doesn't judge nations; He judges individuals.  That is certainly true relative to the spiritual aspects.  We speak of the nation rejecting God, but nations do not reject God, individuals reject God.

: 4WD  Sun Jul 18, 2021 - 08:53:10
God doesn't judge nations; He judges individuals.  That is certainly true relative to the spiritual aspects.  We speak of the nation rejecting God, but nations do not reject God, individuals reject God.

Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. 7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

If God has declared anything concerning a nation, then that nation will be judged according to His word.

: Amo  Sun Jul 18, 2021 - 09:08:53

Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. 7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

If God has declared anything concerning a nation, then that nation will be judged according to His word.

So then if God judges, i.e., condemns, America, you will be condemned as well?  If not, then what does it mean that God judges America?  Are you not America?

: 4WD  Sun Jul 18, 2021 - 09:13:57
So then if God judges, i.e., condemns, America, you will be condemned as well?  If not, then what does it mean that God judges America?  Are you not America?

No. The nation will be condemned. God's own are already saved out of every nation of this earth. Israel was judged and condemned, but the remnant were saved. This entire world is judged and condemned, but the remnant in Christ are and will be saved. Every nation of this earth has and does become corrupted and passes away. God's own from within them, shall never pass away. Though they may sleep the sleep of death for a while, they will be awakened by our Savior when He returns. Unto salvation for His own, and destruction for the wicked who have rejected His mercy and authority. 

: Amo  Sun Jul 18, 2021 - 09:37:16No. The nation will be condemned. God's own are already saved out of every nation of this earth. Israel was judged and condemned, but the remnant were saved. This entire world is judged and condemned, but the remnant in Christ are and will be saved. Every nation of this earth has and does become corrupted and passes away. God's own from within them, shall never pass away. Though they may sleep the sleep of death for a while, they will be awakened by our Savior when He returns. Unto salvation for His own, and destruction for the wicked who have rejected His mercy and authority.

Amo~ while I agree that God does judge nations and spares the righteous therein, just as he destroyed the seven nations and gave their land to Israel of old. Yet, the righteous shall never die, for they have eternal life and is impossible for them to die~the wicked do not live after the death of their body, but will be raised at the last day only to face judgment and then the second death in the lake of fire.

What does it even mean that God has judged a nation?  How is that determined?  What is different about a nation after it is judged as compared to before?  Please be specific.

: RB  Sun Jul 18, 2021 - 12:47:18
Amo~ while I agree that God does judge nations and spares the righteous therein, just as he destroyed the seven nations and gave their land to Israel of old. Yet, the righteous shall never die, for they have eternal life and is impossible for them to die~the wicked do not live after the death of their body, but will be raised at the last day only to face judgment and then the second death in the lake of fire.

Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

: Amo  Sun Jul 18, 2021 - 21:12:03Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Okay, still supports what I said~the WICKED do not live after the death of their body UNTIL the resurrection at the last day when they shall be judge. The righteous are NOW WITH CHRIST after the death of their body per many scriptures. The righteous were JUDGED IN Christ's death on the cross, and shall never be judged in the same sense as the wicked, as a matter of truth, they along with Christ, shall judge even angels that sinned!

: Paul1st Corinthians 6:2,3~Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Amo~ you need to forsake that false teaching of the SDA that we as the wicked live not again until the last day. You seem to love God and respect his word, you need to reconsider the doctrine that you learned from the SDA.

: JESUS CHRIST who was no SDAJohn 8:51~"Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

: 4WD  Sun Jul 18, 2021 - 14:51:19
What does it even mean that God has judged a nation?  How is that determined?  What is different about a nation after it is judged as compared to before?  Please be specific.

Brother, only in THIS LIFE are nations judge, not at the DAY of judgement, individuals will be judged from those nations. The same manner which NATIONS are blessed who honors the LORD's word and make him their trust as we AS A NATION once did overall considered.

: 4WD  Sun Jul 18, 2021 - 08:53:10
God doesn't judge nations; He judges individuals.  That is certainly true relative to the spiritual aspects.  We speak of the nation rejecting God, but nations do not reject God, individuals reject God.

That is entirely untrue.  The Hebrew prophets frequently have entire passages of God judging Nations, including Israel.

: RB  Mon Jul 19, 2021 - 03:34:55
Brother, only in THIS LIFE are nations judge, not at the DAY of judgement, individuals will be judged from those nations. The same manner which NATIONS are blessed who honors the LORD's word and make him their trust as we AS A NATION once did overall considered.

You still haven't answered my question. I understand what you are saying about this life versus the day of judgment.  However, you haven't told me what it means for God to judge a nation. I don't think there even is such a thing. But if there is, then what is the result of such a judgment?  How can we tell whether a nation has been judged?  How can we tell which nations have been judged? 

: DaveW  Mon Jul 19, 2021 - 05:09:42
That is entirely untrue.  The Hebrew prophets frequently have entire passages of God judging Nations, including Israel.

Give us an example of God judging a nation; specifically given me an example where it says that God has judged a nation. 

: 4WD  Sun Jul 18, 2021 - 09:13:57
So then if God judges, i.e., condemns, America, you will be condemned as well?  If not, then what does it mean that God judges America?  Are you not America

Were Joshua and Caleb "condemned" to wander in the desert for 40 years with the rest of their nation?

Were the innocent wives and children of Korah's co-conspirators swallowed alive into hell along with those who rose up against Moses?

And not only in the past, but in the future AFTER the Armageddon battle:   

Zechariah 14:16
Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths. 17 And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain on them. 18 If the family of Egypt does not go up or enter, then no rain will fall on them; it will be the plague with which the Lord smites the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths. 19 This will be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths.

: 4WD  Sun Jul 18, 2021 - 14:51:19
What does it even mean that God has judged a nation?  How is that determined?  What is different about a nation after it is judged as compared to before?  Please be specific.

Just look at Egypt during the period leading up to Israel crossing the Red Sea.  10 plagues, 9 of which which did NOT affect the people living in the Goshen district.

: 4WD  Mon Jul 19, 2021 - 05:10:53
You still haven't answered my question. I understand what you are saying about this life versus the day of judgment.  However, you haven't told me what it means for God to judge a nation. I don't think there even is such a thing. But if there is, then what is the result of such a judgment?  How can we tell whether a nation has been judged?  How can we tell which nations have been judged?

Brother, I'll give a couple~look at all the witty inventions the USA has over other nations and these inventions have made our life EASY in comparison to other nations. We at one time was the head and not the tail, that seems to be changing. We enjoy the best of just about everything one could think of. We have had NO war on our own homeland like other nations have experienced. We have enjoyed prosperity, freedom and so many other blessings. The list is long. We have MORE than we need in our homeland this cannot be said of most other nations. 

: RB  Mon Jul 19, 2021 - 06:33:53
Brother, I'll give a couple~look at all the witty inventions the USA has over other nations and these inventions have made our life EASY in comparison to other nations. We at one time was the head and not the tail, that seems to be changing. We enjoy the best of just about everything one could think of. We have had NO war on our own homeland like other nations have experienced. We have enjoyed prosperity, freedom and so many other blessings. The list is long. We have MORE than we need in our homeland this cannot be said of most other nations.

So then nations that are "rich" are rich because God has blessed them and nations that are "poor" are poor because God has judged (condemned) them?  I don't think so; but perhaps that is just me.

It doesn't work that way even with people and I don't think it  works that way with nations.

: RB  Mon Jul 19, 2021 - 03:26:19
Okay, still supports what I said~the WICKED do not live after the death of their body UNTIL the resurrection at the last day when they shall be judge.

So you do not believe in the triune nature of man?

So you do not believe  Eccl. 12:7 (RB's choice of bible)

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." ?  ::frown::

: RB  Mon Jul 19, 2021 - 03:26:19
Okay, still supports what I said~the WICKED do not live after the death of their body UNTIL the resurrection at the last day when they shall be judge. The righteous are NOW WITH CHRIST after the death of their body per many scriptures.

that assumes that once someone dies they are in the same time line as us; meaning that there is a time lag between death and resurrection / judgement.  Since God exists outside of time, and Ecclesiastes says the spirit returns to God upon death, it would seem that we leave this time line as well. 

: Rella  Mon Jul 19, 2021 - 07:40:43So you do not believe in the triune nature of man?

So you do not believe  Eccl. 12:7 (RB's choice of bible)

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." ?  ::frown::

It has not been too long since we had a few posts on the difference between the three~body, soul, and spirit of man. I posted those mainly for you and you read what I believe, have you so soon forgotten? Actually, Solomon mentions this two separate times in Ecclesiastes~chapter three and 12.

Ecclesiastes deals EXCUSLVELY about life UNDER THE SUN and what is best for man~We KNOW about the afterlife more from other scriptures, mainly the NT.

Man's spirit is his soul's personality and when a man dies his body returns back to dust and his spirit to God who gave it. Now, in the NT, we know much more~ (with a little light from the OT) believers OT and NT have eternal life and shall never truly taste of death for God is NOT the God of dead, but of the LIVING! The wicked are not so~when they die, they live NOT again until the thousand years are expired and then ALL of the wicked shall come forth at the last day to be judged. Read Revelation chapter twenty.

enough for now.

Back to Revelation's symbolic language.

: RB  Mon Jul 19, 2021 - 03:26:19
Okay, still supports what I said~the WICKED do not live after the death of their body UNTIL the resurrection at the last day when they shall be judge. The righteous are NOW WITH CHRIST after the death of their body per many scriptures. The righteous were JUDGED IN Christ's death on the cross, and shall never be judged in the same sense as the wicked, as a matter of truth, they along with Christ, shall judge even angels that sinned! Amo~ you need to forsake that false teaching of the SDA that we as the wicked live not again until the last day. You seem to love God and respect his word, you need to reconsider the doctrine that you learned from the SDA.

You may of course believe as you wish, and take one statement, or partial statement from our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and make it mean what you wish. Nevertheless, our Lord and Savior did not teach that the dead in Christ would be immediately with Him upon their death. Why would a term like the dead in Christ even exist, if He or the scriptures taught what you teach? Eternal life and immortality for the saved are received at the resurrection.

Luk 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. 37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. 38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

Joh 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. 42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? 43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


Luk 18:29 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake, 30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1Co 15:42  So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body...
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

The first death is not death at all, but rather a sleep which all will be awakened from. The second death is death indeed, which all the unsaved will die.

Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

: RB  Mon Jul 19, 2021 - 03:26:19
Okay, still supports what I said~the WICKED do not live after the death of their body UNTIL the resurrection at the last day when they shall be judge.

What message do you get from the account of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16?

.....The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side (Luke 16:22-23)

: 4WD  Wed Jul 21, 2021 - 04:43:28
What message do you get from the account of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16?

.....The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side (Luke 16:22-23)

Brother, in one sentence...... it's a parable with its overall teaching is when ONCE we die, our works follow us and once we die, there's NO crossing back and correcting our past life. I have one or two posts on this written a while back, I'll see if I can find it later.

: RB  Wed Jul 21, 2021 - 04:53:51Brother, in one sentence...... it's a parable with its overall teaching is when ONCE we die, our works follow us and once we die, there's NO crossing back and correcting our past life. I have one or two posts on this written a while back, I'll see if I can find it later.

Can't be a parable since the beggar Lazarus is actually named.  Parables do not name names.

: DaveW  Wed Jul 21, 2021 - 05:07:05
Can't be a parable since the beggar Lazarus is actually named.  Parables do not name names.

This one does.

: DaveW  Wed Jul 21, 2021 - 05:07:05Can't be a parable since the beggar Lazarus is actually named.  Parables do not name names.

Said WHO? Dave, no time to debate this now, but will say your point will not hold up~besides, if this is speaking of a literal hellfire of a place being now, do you really think for one moment touching water with your finger on someone's tongue would serve any good? But stopping a person's tongue of boasting about tomorrow can serve a good purpose before death! boasting of such things as....." being clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day."

: RB  Wed Jul 21, 2021 - 04:53:51
Brother, in one sentence...... it's a parable with its overall teaching is when ONCE we die, our works follow us and once we die, there's NO crossing back and correcting our past life. I have one or two posts on this written a while back, I'll see if I can find it later.

Yes, it teaches that, but it also teaches that after physical death, the lost are self-aware for some time at least and certainly until Jesus comes back for judgment.  It also teaches that the dead are aware of what is happening at least on earth and to the saved who have died.

: RB  Wed Jul 21, 2021 - 05:24:04
Said WHO? Dave, no time to debate this now, but will say your point will not hold up~besides, if this is speaking of a literal hellfire of a place being now, do you really think for one moment touching water with your finger on someone's tongue would serve any good? But stopping a person's tongue of boasting about tomorrow can serve a good purpose before death! boasting of such things as....." being clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day."

In case you were not aware, the use of parables predates our Lord's birth by at least a century. And in those recorded parables no one is mentioned BY NAME.  I would suggest finding Brad Young's book on Parables (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjcw82TivTxAhXKKs0KHYFVDvkQFjAAegQIBhAD&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FParables-Jewish-Tradition-Christian-Interpretation%2Fdp%2F1565632443&usg=AOvVaw11628m7yP8QFQQBeIEdZ_t) to find out more how that was used in that culture.

: DaveW  Wed Jul 21, 2021 - 06:41:31
In case you were not aware, the use of parables predates our Lord's birth by at least a century. And in those recorded parables no one is mentioned BY NAME.  I would suggest finding Brad Young's book on Parables (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjcw82TivTxAhXKKs0KHYFVDvkQFjAAegQIBhAD&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FParables-Jewish-Tradition-Christian-Interpretation%2Fdp%2F1565632443&usg=AOvVaw11628m7yP8QFQQBeIEdZ_t) to find out more how that was used in that culture.

Ah, but is "Lazarus" actually a name?

It looks like it might be a pseudonym to me.

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Wed Jul 21, 2021 - 12:15:31
Ah, but is "Lazarus" actually a name?

It looks like it might be a pseudonym to me.

Lazar is a fairly common Jewish name.  It got Latinized by adding the -us to it.
Remember Lazar Wolfe the butcher from Fiddler on the Roof?

: DaveW  Wed Jul 21, 2021 - 05:07:05
Can't be a parable since the beggar Lazarus is actually named.  Parables do not name names.

There is a very compelling reason to use the name Lazarus in this particular parable.

Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Joh 11:38 Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it. 39 Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days. 40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God? Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. 42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me. 43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. 44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

A man named Lazarus did come forth from the dead, and they still would not believe.

: Amo  Thu Jul 22, 2021 - 12:56:31
A man named Lazarus did come forth from the dead, and they still would not believe.

Indeed.  In fact they plotted to kill him as well:

John 12:9
The large crowd of the Jews then learned that He was there; and they came, not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might also see Lazarus, whom He raised from the dead. 10  But the chief priests planned to put Lazarus to death also;

But this Lazarus apparently was fairly wealthy, as he was able to house and support his 2 sisters and support our Lord's ministry.

Interesting that it was the chief priests (Sadducees) and NOT the Pharisees who wanted Lazarus dead.  Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection of the dead, but the Pharisees did.  Having a guy walking around after being dead 4 days certainly threw a monkey wrench into their belief system.

: RB  Mon Jul 19, 2021 - 13:24:51
It has not been too long since we had a few posts on the difference between the three~body, soul, and spirit of man. I posted those mainly for you and you read what I believe, have you so soon forgotten? Actually, Solomon mentions this two separate times in Ecclesiastes~chapter three and 12.

Ecclesiastes deals EXCUSLVELY about life UNDER THE SUN and what is best for man~We KNOW about the afterlife more from other scriptures, mainly the NT.

Man's spirit is his soul's personality and when a man dies his body returns back to dust and his spirit to God who gave it. Now, in the NT, we know much more~ (with a little light from the OT) believers OT and NT have eternal life and shall never truly taste of death for God is NOT the God of dead, but of the LIVING! The wicked are not so~when they die, they live NOT again until the thousand years are expired and then ALL of the wicked shall come forth at the last day to be judged. Read Revelation chapter twenty.

enough for now.

Back to Revelation's symbolic language.

Back once I say this.

I responded to your comment of

Okay, still supports what I said~the WICKED do not live after the death of their body UNTIL the resurrection at the last day when they shall be judge.

Man's spirit is his soul's personality and when a man dies his body returns back to dust and his spirit to God who gave it

Through our human spirit, we have self-awareness, emotions, intellectual knowledge, creative output, and personal passions.

That makes our human spirit US. And if we have a human spirit... it cannot die, just separate and therefore at the death of the body  it lives with all human spirits until such a time that it doesn't.

Now Back to topic... and enough of this

: Rella  Fri Jul 23, 2021 - 08:34:38And if we have a human spirit... it cannot die, just separate and therefore at the death of the body  it lives with all human spirits until such a time that it doesn't.

I truly do not understand what you are saying, maybe you can explain yourself a little better

Psa 13:3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

Psa 115:16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men. 17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. 18 But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore. Praise the LORD.

Psa 146:1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise the LORD, O my soul. 2 While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being. 3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. 4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. 7 Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works. 8 Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment. 9 Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun. 10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

The dead are asleep. They do not praise God, but have gone down into silence. Their thoughts perish. They know not anything, have no more memory, no love, no hatred, no envy, such have perished. They do no work, have no knowledge, or wisdom. This is the testimony of scripture through David and Solomon. Apart from scriptural testimony to contrary, this is the condition of all the dead. Enoch and Elijah never died. Moses was resurrected by Michael the archangel. Many of the sleeping saints rose from the dead at Christ's resurrection. These are the exceptions. 

you wrote "Babylon or Jerusalem is at the heart and center of all antichristian power."

If there has ever been a more anti-Semitic statement made on these pages I've not read it. 

The Bible clearly identifies the anti-Christ kingdom as the Roman Catholic church - the sea beast of Revelation 13.  The multiple horns sprouting from the head of the beast are leaders or popes.  Daniel says these persons would commit blaspheme and seek to change the LAW of God regarding worship.

He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. - Daniel 7:25

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in heaven and earth." - Barclay Cap. XXVII, p. 218. Cities Petrus Bertrandus, Pius V.

We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday." - Rev. Peter Geiermann C.SS.R., The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50

Those that attend worship services on Sunday instead of Saturday are violating the 4th commandment - due in no small degree to the dictates of the Vatican.

With regard to the murder of saints, the RCC is guilty of more innocent bloodshed than all other religions on the planet combined.  False identification of the anti-Christ system and its leadership cannot point to Jews of the 1st century and lay guilt upon them for all the years that passed since the fall of Jerusalem on Tisha B'Av.  Jerusalem doesn't sit on 7 hills as does Rome.  (Rev 17:9)

The throne of satan isn't in Jerusalem, but in modern Turkey (Rev 2:12-13).  It's inspired system is in Rome.

Lengthy quotations and demonic doctrine based upon Francisco Ribera's FUTURISM and Darby's Dispensationalism cannot displace the truth of End Times.  Israel has not been abandoned by God nor replaced by the plastic church.  Israel stands and the LAW still stands despite the lies promulgated by those who follow demonic dogma.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

: rezar  Sun Jan 17, 2010 - 20:49:06
John's view of the Great Tribulation from apocalyptic language.

Tyrone

Sun, 30 Aug 2009 11:01:00 +0000
Before we start the last study on the great tribulation let me say please do not let anyone ever tell you that any scri pture in the Bible has nothing to do with salvation. All of the Bible is about God's plan of salvation form the book of Genesis to Revelation.

People have had the desire to understand the book of Revelation but many have often given up due to the highly apocalyptic language within the book. "The book of Revelation is apocalyptic; therefore, I can never understand it." Well the truth is God never meant for the book of Revelation to be a great mystery to Christians.

The first thing one must understand about the book of Revelation is that it is a book composed almost entirely of symbols ..... symbols that a first century Jew would have found immediately recognizable. These symbols were used before in such books as Deuteronomy, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Jeremiah, Hosea, and Zechariah. They are closely associated with the book of Revelation.

For example in the Tabernacle the only light in the Holy Place would have come from the golden lampstands. We find the details for the lampstands listed in Exodus 25. And we find the symbolic use both in Zechariah 4 and Revelation 1. In the case of Revelation reference Christ is the source of the light. Zechariah used the lampstands in a similar manner, as Jehovah God is the light source.

So John would naturally borrow from their Old Testament Jewish imagery and symbols. Many of the events recorded in the Old Testament were strikingly filmier whether in reality or symbolically to the Jewish Christians of that day. Bringing those events to memory would serve to drive home the messages in Revelation.

These symbols were not selected as (fill in) by the Holy Spirit when He inspired the book, and they do not stand for just anything we may desire in our future. These symbols were not strange to John's original audience to whom the book was written. These symbols were generally understood that Revelation drew on spiritual truths and historical realities. Symbols were like flags being raised that great tribulation was coming. While those being warned would not heed it. Believers, understood these symbols as signs of victory.

John's writing in Revelation 17:1-18 is quite unique as he takes a series of pictures that when put together become a full-motion picture. John is like the photographer who, in capturing a scene, takes pictures from many different angles, that can be seen throughout the book. John will take a series of pictures and then he will move around to a different point of observation. Here John tell the same story of the great tribulation but in apocalyptic language.

We begin with John's snap shot of (Revelation 17:1-2) Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me, "Come, I will show you (the judgment) of the (great harlot) who sits on many waters, with whom the kings of the earth (committed fornication), and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication." (emphasis added)

The women here is pictured and introduced as a prostitute women. This arrangement with Roman can be seen beginning with the crucifixion of Christ. The Romans had no desire to kill Jesus. It was the wicked Jews who shouted 'Crucify him! Crucify Let his blood be on us and our children (Matthews 27:22-25). And it was the wicked Jews who said. "If you let this Man go, you are not Caesar's friend. Whoever makes himself a king speaks against Caesar." (John 19:12)

Spiritual fornication or harlotry in scri pture indicates the breaking of God's covenant, or a departure from his ways (Ezekiel 16: 6-22). The LORD said also to me in the days of Josiah the king: "Have you seen what backsliding Israel has done? She has gone up on every high mountain and under every green tree, and there played the harlot. (Jeremiah 3:6) The nation of Israel had been in covenant relationship with God for 15.000 years, and had been referred to as a women married to the Lord, had sworn faith and love in all things to her rightful husband; but as was so often the case in Old Testament apostasies, even so now in the day of her redemption and visitation, she has shamefully forsaken and rejected him in whoring after strangers. (Jeremiah 3:20 concerning Jerusalem) Surely, as a wife treacherously departs from her husband, So have you dealt treacherously with Me, O house of Israel.' says the Lord.

What is meant by she sits on many waters or lives by many waters'? This terminology is used in (Jeremiah 51:13) concerning the ancient city of Babylon were it was first applied.. There it denoted the vast expanse of influence she had in both civil and political realms. "waters" in Revelation often signifies "people" or nations instead of "H2O." (Dwelling upon many waters) denoted the broad expanse of the Babylon kingdom in the exercise of its political and civil power. Babylon was the civil king of that day. Jerusalem was to the world religiously what Babylon was politically.

John new move around to a different point of observation. So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a (woman sitting on a scarlet beast) which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. (Revelation 17:3) Here the harlot women is riding or sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

An interpretive angel appears for the express purpose of explaining the vision: "But the angel said to me, "Why did you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns." (Rev 17:7). Then in verses 9 and 10 this angel explains the vision: "Here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitting. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space."

Most evangelical scholars recognize that the seven mountains represent the famed seven hills of Rome. The recipients of Revelation lived under the rule of Rome, which was universally distinguished by its seven hills would have immediately recognizable this symbol. How could the recipients, living in the seven historical churches of Asia Minor and under Roman imperial rule, understand anything else but this geographical picture of John?

But there is an additional information involved. The seven heads have a two-fold referent. We learn also that the seven heads represent a political situation in which five kings have fallen, the sixth is, and the seventh is yet to come and will remain but a short while. It is surely no accident that Nero was the sixth emperor of Rome, who reigned after the deaths of his five predecessors and before the brief rule of the seventh emperor.

Flavius Josephus, the Jewish contemporary of John, clearly points out that Julius Caesar was the first emperor of Rome and that he was followed in succession by Augustus, Tiberius, Caius, Claudius, and Nero (Antiquities 18; 19). We discover this enumeration also in other near contemporaries of John: 4 Ezra 11 and 12; Sibylline Oracles, books 5 and 8; Barnabas, Epistle 4; Suetonius, Lives of the Twelve Caesars; and Dio Cassius' Roman History 5.

The text of Revelation says of the seven kings "five have fallen." The first five emperors are dead, when John writes. But the verse goes on to say "one is." That is, the sixth one is then reigning even as John wrote. That would be Nero Caesar, who assumed imperial power upon the death of Claudius in October, A.D. 54, and remained emperor until June, A.D. 68.

John continues: "The other is not yet come; and when he comes, he must continue a short space." When the Roman Civil Wars broke out in rebellion against him, Nero committed suicide on June 8, A.D. 68. The seventh king was "not yet come." That would be Galba, who assumed power in June, A.D. 68. But he was only to continue a "short space." His reign lasted but six months, until January 15, A.D. 69. Thus, we see that while John wrote, Nero was still alive and Galba was looming in the near future. Revelation could not have been written after June, A.D. 68, according to the internal political evidence. In this vision we discover strong evidence that Revelation was written before the death of Nero, which occurred on June 8, A.D. 68.

The woman/whore represents apostate Jerusalem and sitting on the beast means she has the political power she controls the beast. A beast is a symbol used to depict a political state, such as the lion, bear, and leopard of Daniel 7, representing the kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persian and Greece respectively.

The ten horns of the beast (17:12-17) are defined as ten kings or provincial governors who aided in the war against the Lamb Christ. verse 14. Farrar lists ten major provinces that constituted the Roman Empire in the days of Nero–namely: Italy, Achaia, Asia, Syria, Egypt, Africa, Spain, Gaul, Britain and Germany. They united with Nero in the matter of war against the Lamb, and of Christian persecution.

The interpretive angel further explains the identify the harlot woman in his vision: The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication. (Revelation 17:4) The garment of this women is the exact garment of the high priest of Israel, according to the Bible, contained specific colors:

"Now take Aaron your brother, and his sons with him, from among the children of Israel, that he may minister to Me as priest, Aaron and Aaron's sons: Nadab, Abihu, Eleazar, and Ithamar. And you shall make holy garments for Aaron your brother, for glory and for beauty. So you shall speak to all who are gifted artisans, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, that they may make Aaron's garments, to consecrate him, that he may minister to Me as priest. And these are the garments which they shall make: a breastplate, an ephod, a robe, a skillfully woven tunic, a turban, and a sash. So they shall make holy garments for Aaron your brother and his sons, that he may minister to Me as priest. "They shall take the gold, blue, purple, and scarlet thread, and the fine linen, and they shall make the ephod of gold, blue, purple, and scarlet thread, and fine woven linen, artistically worked. It shall have two shoulder straps joined at its two edges, and so it shall be joined together. And the intricately woven band of the ephod, which is on it, shall be of the same workmanship, made of gold, blue, purple, and scarlet thread, and fine woven linen. "Then you shall take two onyx stones and engrave on them the names of the sons of Israel: (Exodus 28:1-9)

The garments of the high priest include gold, purple, scarlet, and blue. This de scri ption is of the woman of (Revelation 17:4)

John now move around to a different point of observation and takes another picture that makes the harlot woman becomes ever clearer. And on her forehead a name was written: MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement. (Revelation 17:5-6)

cont'd...........

The above lengthy post is a study all by itself.

The short and sweet advice for any serious Bible scholar of End Times events is two-fold.

First, is that text imagery of human/animal hybrids are meant to convey three possible meanings; a system, a religion or a nation/empire.  Horns proceeding out of the head of these human/animal hybrids are leaders or a succession of leaders.  Keep this simple benchmark in mind when you review the predictions of Daniel or Revelation.

Second, is that the overwhelming interpretations of End Times events were codified in the late 16the century by Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera in the Catholic doctrine of FUTURISM.  His intent, certified by the Vatican, was to distract and deceive even the elect (saved persons) if possible.  Google it.  In the mid-19th century John Nelson Darby put a new coat of paint on the old doctrines and called it DISPENSATIONALISM.   It was the same old garbage in a new Americanized wrapper and Christians who were weary of civil war bought it - along with the general climate of spiritism (seances, ouija, false prophecy, etc.).   Mostly they still do even though many churches in foreign lands have rigidly rejected the heresy.

One must study scripture with one eye firmly focused on the meaning of human/animal hybrids (the Bible interprets itself), and with another eye on history.

For instance, the sea beast of Revelation 13 is not a man as is accepted by FUTURISM and Christian novelizations of the End Times.  The sea beast is a global religion based on a city of seven hills (Rome).  Revelation 17 interprets the sea as "many peoples, nations and tongues".  Thus the beast is not a man.   It's the Roman Catholic church. FUTURISM is meant to distract and deceive the reader from this Biblical truth.   

Revelation 13:3 predicts that one of the horns (leaders) of the religion would be killed and later returned to life.  In 1797 a Napoleonic general entered Rome, seized Vatican real estate and assets and arrested the Pope.  The Pope later died in prison two years later (1799).   In the year 1929 Italian dictator Benito Mussolini, wishing to cement his authority, returned Vatican real estate to the Catholic church and gave it a grant of money for the transition.  This was called the Lateran Treaty and all the world celebrated Mussolini's gracious gift to the church.   Google it.  This is a clear and present fulfillment of Revelation's prophecy, yet the RCC would not have us believe it.   

The Bible still speaks to us today and its message is chillingly accurate.  Jesus IS coming back and He is coming back soon.

2 Tim 2:15

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

: Choir Loft  Tue Aug 17, 2021 - 07:34:40
First, is that text imagery of human/animal hybrids are meant to convey three possible meanings; a system, a religion or a nation/empire.

Pretty close.  Prophetic "animals" represent ethnic groups.  That corresponds to nations most of the time... though they can exist without being an independent nation.

For instance, the dog is the symbol of the Canaanites, despite the fact that at the time of the New Testament, the Canaanites had no government of their own, and were entirely subject to the Romans (whose symbol is the eagle), and through much of the Old Testament were subjects of the Egyptians (whose symbol is the wolf).

The symbols also are used freely in the 4 gospels.  Try inserting "Canaanites" for "dogs" and "Israelites" for "sheep" as you read through them, and you will find it works remarkably well.

Jarrod