I lead a Married couples Small Group and the last 2 weeks we have been covering Sizzling Sex from Pam and Bill Ferrels Book "Every Marriage is a Fixer Upper", but between the topics from the book, a couple websites, and my groups potential questions next week I am RUNNING OUT of Biblical reference. There are the staple Verses in Songs of Songs, and 1 Corinthians, Genesis, etc but where do i go to get info on Biblical justification for a Married couple who uses toys? Or when does bondage and Role playing become wrong?
I need help with perspective in defining the GRAY AREAS that the Bible does not specifically talk about.
Please keep the thread focused on the topic.
I see it this way: The Bible doesn't give us a lot of details on this sort of thing. ::cheerleader:: If God wanted us to know more, he would have told us more.
Respect. Gentleness. Mutual edification. Sensitivity to one another's needs/wants/moods/turn-offs. Apart from that, I don't think God has quite so many rules.
Enjoy.
Thanks Steve. I Agree 100% and I know i can say that with confidence to my Small Group, but whith what justification?
This one:
Proverbs 5:18-19
May your fountain be blessed, ::cheerleader:: and may you rejoice in the wife of your youth. ::joker:: A loving doe, a graceful deer— may her breasts satisfy you always, ::headspin:: may you ever be captivated by her love.
*ahem.* ::tiptoe:: 'nuff said.
Dude, I get it. My Sex life ROCKS, and i am sill captivated by her love, but we have couples who have been married less than 5 yrs and have trust issues, another wife uses the lack of evidence in the Bible about Oral sex to justify her abstaining from it. Where do i go?
I use Songs Of Song 2:3, 4:16, 8:2 and I Cor 7:3, but its too vauge. Is it fair to say there is an underlying issue of submission to her husband? and if so how do i approach it?
i have to get to sleep, I will check this on Sunday, ( The day of the week that wreaks of rest but all we do is catch our breath so we can wade naked into the bloody pool and place our hand on the big black Book to watch the knives zig zag between our aching fingers)
If one of the spouses is really uncomfortable about something, or if they are really unhappy about anything, then they should never be forced or even pressured to do it in my opinion. I suspect that lady just doesnt want to do oral sex and is using the Bible to justify it, but if she hates the thought of it then why pressure her?If her husband uses that submission thing to force her to do that, she will resent it and what sort of marriage is that? Submission is a choice that the women makes, it shouldnt be forced. Now if she wants to do it but feels it is wrong Biblically then that is a different issue.
For me personally, a step too far would be anal sex, sadism and masochism and pretenting to be someone else(I heard of a couple where each pretented to be a pop star that the other fancied) and also anything that involves porn. Another is that sex game which involves one of the people being nearly strangled to death.That is dangerous and a few have died doing that.
There are loads of things that a couple can do without things which to me seem like a distortion of what sex should be. Apart from those things, the world is our oyster. ::clappingoverhead::
By the way I have been married less that 5 years (a second marriage) and dont have any trust issues in that way . Wasnt quite sure what you meant by that.
Are all the couples happy to discuss the intimate details of their sex lives with the others there? Just that I feel it is between my husband and I and cant imagine discussing what we do and dont do with others in a group, its far too personal.
Good post Chosenon. It is too personal to air publicly.
Great Post chosen one.
I am kinda bad at verbalizing the things i want to get across.
"less than 5 years with trust issues" That is referring to my disbeliefe that a young married couple with no fidelity issues could have a trust problem. I mean didnt they comlpetely trust the other with their heart enough to commit to a lifetime together.
-As far as the Oral sex/ submission thing. I dont believe NOR would i attempt to teach that wives should do whatever the husband wants. But the in the act of sex, not the instictive atheletic reprodcution sex, but the sex that brings couples closer to each other and God. In that kind of sex there is mutual submission to the others' desires and needs. Thats the submission i was talking of. And i would never want soemthing to be forced upon me and I dont think anything should be forced intimitely, i mis-spoke.
- Auto eroitc asphyxiation= sexual climax during stangulation. I didnt even go there, C'mon.
And as far as talking about this in the group setting, if we didnt bring up these issues in our group, most coulpes tell us that they would hae never confronted the issue. Primarily because SEX is a taught a taboo topic in the Christian realm. We dont speak in explicit details, but we do go over some Gray area things, like sex toys. .
if the people there are happy to discuss it then I am sure that is OK, just that I have never known it to happen and wouldn't do it myself. There are books that can be helpful in this area, if a couple wants to learn together, but for me that is too far to do that in a group setting.
Also you are right that each spouse needs to please the other, as long it isn't something that they feel REALLY unhappy about, or feel really pressured to do so.
I am not sure that sex is taboo in the church. Maybe in some churches it is. Its sad that it has been in the past because after all, God invented it! The Song of Songs is very sexual although many in the church still deny that don't they, and spiritualise it,and that's sad.
There are many books etc that cover this area that weren't around 20 or 30 years ago,and I do think that many Christians consider sex to be a vitally important part of marriage.I certainly do.
No you are right,we don't speak about it in explicit details in group settings but are we actually supposed to? Not sure.
In the 'marriage course' for example which is run in many many churches here in the UK,(and maybe in the USA as well) sex is one weeks topic on its own, but that is between that couple to discuss and isn't done in a group setting, and it doesn't go into detail about what is and what isn't allowed.
There is a reason we don't discuss the intimate details of our lives in an open forum. Maybe when you see a spouse humiliated in one of these group settings and the marriage is then irretrievably broken, you will reconsider such groups. There are those who will listen to the stories and then begin fantasizing over sex with someone else's spouse. It's OK to have a class or a study, but not with their personal lives in such graphic detail injected into it in a public venue. (A small group is a public venue.)
You've covered all Scripture has to say on it. Scripture is not a book to look for justification of questionable behavior. Time to change study topic before the study becomes the source of a divorce. Recommend a counselor if they see they have issues that need to be addressed.
: phoebe Sat Jul 17, 2010 - 10:48:13
There is a reason we don't discuss the intimate details of our lives in an open forum. Maybe when you see a spouse humiliated in one of these group settings and the marriage is then irretrievably broken, you will reconsider such groups. There are those who will listen to the stories and then begin fantasizing over sex with someone else's spouse. It's OK to have a class or a study, but not with their personal lives in such graphic detail injected into it in a public venue. (A small group is a public venue.)
You've covered all Scripture has to say on it. Scripture is not a book to look for justification of questionable behavior. Time to change study topic before the study becomes the source of a divorce. Recommend a counselor if they see they have issues that need to be addressed.
yes I agree. A counselling situation with husband and wife, is the only one that I would consider appropriate for such intimate discussions.I would hate it if my husband said such things about me(ie that I wouldnt do this or that)to others, but he never would as he is even stricter about not discussing such personal things with others than I am.
Thank you for all the input. I will no longer continue to follow this post.
In case you crawfish and decide to look back at this thread, yeah, this is a topic that probably shouldn't be discussed much in a group.
: Bobbym Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 18:48:20
Thank you for all the input. I will no longer continue to follow this post.
Why is that. Is it because we dont agree that you should be doing it? Is it possible that we have a point, being that we all agree?
I'm not going to go into much detail, but God made sex and made it feel good. It is not just for baby making. The marriage bed is clean in our Fathers eyes, He created it. There are limitations though, no third party, no homosexual, no pedephilia, or animals. This is clearly written in His Word. God wants us to enjoy this act, He doesn't think it is dirty or bad. If you don't want to do something, don't. God does not think we are dirty having sex.
Discussing concepts and maybe even types and styles and techniques, even with some detail, might be appropriate in a group the leader knew well, if s/he had enough insight and perception to direct things so that none of that humiliation mentioned happens.
There doesn't need to be anything personal, certainly no "he did // she did". I really have reservations about such a class going into any detail if they are co-ed. Much better if taught separately.
This subject only has so much ground to cover, the study can't be very long. You'd run out of material pretty quickly, if your goal is to ground the whole thing in Scripture. There are passages focused on respect and love and pleasing one's spouse, you could base a sex-related talk on those.
There just isn't a whole lot in the Word, specifically about specifics of intercourse.
Sounds like you need to check out Joe Beam's material. These two articles imparticular:
Sex and the Bible (http://www.joebeam.com/sexandbible.htm)
Sex in the Christian Life (http://www.joebeam.com/sexinthechristianlife.htm)
: janine Wed Jul 21, 2010 - 22:18:05
Discussing concepts and maybe even types and styles and techniques, even with some detail, might be appropriate in a group the leader knew well, if s/he had enough insight and perception to direct things so that none of that humiliation mentioned happens.
There doesn't need to be anything personal, certainly no "he did // she did". I really have reservations about such a class going into any detail if they are co-ed. Much better if taught separately.
This subject only has so much ground to cover, the study can't be very long. You'd run out of material pretty quickly, if your goal is to ground the whole thing in Scripture. There are passages focused on respect and love and pleasing one's spouse, you could base a sex-related talk on those.
There just isn't a whole lot in the Word, specifically about specifics of intercourse.
I don't see how the subject can be talked about without folks picturing others there doing the midnight rodeo in all sorts of various styles. It seems to me a class could be handled in about one minute:
1. Do what the two of you want to do as long as both agree and neither feels forced.
2. It stays between the two of you.
3. Do nothing that would cause physical injury.
What more is there?
I did read in a Cecil Hook book about how he was walking down a Sunday School hallway and saw where someone in a class drew on the chalkboard what is meant by "circumcision", but that probably wouldn't have anything to do with this thread.
Good Christian teaching about the importance of sex in marriage is brilliant, but discussing it in detail in a group? So much so that everyone now knows that one lady doesnt like oral sex and her husband does? To me it seems WAY over the line.Too much detail for a group surely.Shouldnt some things be kept between the couple? Or maybe with a counsellor if they are problems?
I'm with the others who think that there is no need for group discussion on particulars.
Personally, I'm not persuaded that toys are a good idea; they create an artificial eroticism that cannot be matched by normal lovemaking between the two lovers. I don't find them at all appealing!
: Bobbym Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 18:48:20
Thank you for all the input. I will no longer continue to follow this post.
In case you do come back try www.christiannymphos.com they seem to cover the topics you are talking about from a Christian perspective. I have mixed feelings about the site. But take a look, it could be useful.
: Rachel Tue Jul 27, 2010 - 09:12:57
: Bobbym Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 18:48:20
Thank you for all the input. I will no longer continue to follow this post.
In case you do come back try www.christiannymphos.com they seem to cover the topics you are talking about from a Christian perspective. I have mixed feelings about the site. But take a look, it could be useful.
I don't know. "christian" and "nymphos" seems like an oxymoron to me.
Just my two cents...... This seems like the sort of class that would be better discussed in separate classrooms. One all men, one all women. Using the same curriculum in both classes. In this manner, very sensitive subjects could be discussed in a more appropriate atmosphere.
: BobsRib Tue Jul 27, 2010 - 12:09:30
Just my two cents...... This seems like the sort of class that would be better discussed in separate classrooms. One all men, one all women. Using the same curriculum in both classes. In this manner, very sensitive subjects could be discussed in a more appropriate atmosphere.
Thats a good point Bobsrib, but my concern would be that most of the wives will tell their husbands what was said, and visa versa,so they will all know all the details anyway.
Maybe I am old fashioned as a women in my early 50's, but there is no way that I would ever discuss my sex life in a group setting or with anyone except my husband, and I have never heard of it happening in any of the many churches that I have been to.
: Rachel Tue Jul 27, 2010 - 09:12:57
: Bobbym Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 18:48:20
Thank you for all the input. I will no longer continue to follow this post.
In case you do come back try www.christiannymphos.com they seem to cover the topics you are talking about from a Christian perspective. I have mixed feelings about the site. But take a look, it could be useful.
This (http://christiannymphos.org/) link actually takes one there. Phoebe, you said "I don't know". Well, go look at it and then you won't have to say "I don't know". It seems geared for women, though.
: BobsRib Tue Jul 27, 2010 - 12:09:30
Just my two cents...... This seems like the sort of class that would be better discussed in separate classrooms. One all men, one all women. Using the same curriculum in both classes. In this manner, very sensitive subjects could be discussed in a more appropriate atmosphere.
It would be an improvement, but then it wouldn't. If a dude is talking about certain sexual things it really won't matter if his wife is in a different room if I know who she is. I don't see how I could keep from thinking explicitly about the two of them. Likewise, I don't think my wife would want me talking about doing the midnight rodeo with her to folks, especially if they have the slightest clue who she is. It wouldn't be a help if I were just talking about it when she is in another room.
Ditto that, nick.
Add to that the humiliation one of them will feel if they are having struggles, and think the other one is ratting them out in the other room. Seems it would create mistrust.
: Mere Nick Wed Jul 28, 2010 - 10:20:26
: Rachel Tue Jul 27, 2010 - 09:12:57
: Bobbym Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 18:48:20
Thank you for all the input. I will no longer continue to follow this post.
In case you do come back try www.christiannymphos.com they seem to cover the topics you are talking about from a Christian perspective. I have mixed feelings about the site. But take a look, it could be useful.
This (http://christiannymphos.org/) link actually takes one there. Phoebe, you said "I don't know". Well, go look at it and then you won't have to say "I don't know". It seems geared for women, though.
Just 'cause they have a website doesn't mean they are. If their mind is so completely full of thoughts of sex, sex, sex, and more sex, 24/7, where is room for God and His Spirit to indwell? It's obsessive. Obsessive sex is an idol.
Nope, I'm sticking with oxymoron.
I guess I was thinking about a different kind of class. I wasn't thinking about telling personal details about anyone's sex life. I was thinking about talking about sexuality in the abstract, not about Suzy and John like this and that, while Bill would like this but Linda doesn't enjoy it. No, there is no way details can be discussed in a group setting.
: phoebe Wed Jul 28, 2010 - 11:26:28
Just 'cause they have a website doesn't mean they are. If their mind is so completely full of thoughts of sex, sex, sex, and more sex, 24/7, where is room for God and His Spirit to indwell? It's obsessive. Obsessive sex is an idol.
Well, that's a big IF. Just 'cause they have a website doesn't mean they are obsessed with it. I don't know where, if at all, a line can be drawn for a married couple's frequency of sex but I do know I'm certainly not the one to go draw it for some other couple.
As long as it is just between them, neither feels forced and there's not physical injury, then if they both feel the need to go, say, four times a day, then they ought to. In fact, it would probably be wrong not to.
Hello all.
I'm no psychiatrist but for someone to be obsessed with sex to the extent think about it or have it three -four times a day shows there to be a lack in ones emotional or mental makeup. They are using sex to fill in the void of what's missing in their life.
: Bobbym Sat Jul 17, 2010 - 02:32:29
Thanks Steve. I Agree 100% and I know i can say that with confidence to my Small Group, but whith what justification?
I would have to argue from silence. It may not be the strongest argument going, but that's what's there.
If God had meant to regulate this extensively, then He would have. The fact that there ISN'T more there about it, ought to tell us something.
Jarrod
: spicyjewel Fri Aug 06, 2010 - 18:16:33
Hello all.
I'm no psychiatrist but for someone to be obsessed with sex to the extent think about it or have it three -four times a day shows there to be a lack in ones emotional or mental makeup. They are using sex to fill in the void of what's missing in their life.
I can understand newlyweds going this much. For most folks, though, it might make a good week. Anyway, talking about it in a group is the kind of thing that runs a high risk of being a disaster for someone.
Hi!
(I dont even know if I can talk about it but if its wrong, moderator please delete it.)
So... Me and my husband are married for almost a year now and our intimacy is really low. And it hurts me really bad because when being intimate I feel a connection and feel loved and also I think it is healthy for each couple.
He was married before but his wife wanted a divorce. Anyway he was always saying to me that intimacy is a very good thing, that he desires it and it should be quite frequent in every marriage (depending on time etc). So why isnt it like that? I always wanted to please him but I cant please him in staying away from him because I just cant.
I almost always have to push him into it or eventually after all my complaints he does it. Does he want me or love me??? is the question I am dealing with. He says so and he hugs me, cuddles me but where is the intimacy?... How can I even want it if I am being rejected all the time and when he approves it I cant say no, because it is the only time that he wants me.
I confronted him with the Bible (1 Cor 7:5) but he says that it is all about controlling emotions (...lack of self-control). ??? Is he making an excuse or am I being selfish and wanting sex more often? I also found other verses in the Bible and showed them to him but he said to me that I am seeking for a solution and that I should find satisfaction within God. I know that it is not everything all about sex but it is hard to live without it as well. Our relationship otherwise is ok, so I cant find anything that is "holding him back".
I need an advice really bad because I cant talk to anyone about it. It hurts me the most that everything I say to defend intimacy in marriage he turns it against me in a way that it is not all about me.
You are right in that sex does bring a strong connection in marriage and that it is very healthy.I wonder if maybe he just has a low sex drive, maybe caused by low testerone? He could go to the doctor to be tested.
On the other hand, even if he has a low sex drive, he could make the effort if only for your sake and for the sake of your marriage.Would he agree to go for counselling together?
I also wonder if this was the cause of his first wife wanting a divorce?
Sometimes 2 people who are married do have very different sex drives, and a compromise may need to be reached, but it concerns me that he wont even make the effort, although the fact that he is affectionate with you is encouraging.
If you couldn't tell God about it afterwards, don't do it.
PS. And if there's no dirt involved, and you have a healthy normal sex life and you're spirit filled, you can actually invite the holy spirit into the act.
I was kind of suprised when I first heard that, but it makes sense. Sex is good and god given when used in it's proper context. And God likes to bless us. I imagine that would be pretty kickin. (People say it is.)
God isn't a prude. But neither is he EVER into anything that degrades a person.
EVER.
: yesult Tue Aug 24, 2010 - 13:36:39
If you couldn't tell God about it afterwards, don't do it.
PS. And if there's no dirt involved, and you have a healthy normal sex life and you're spirit filled, you can actually invite the holy spirit into the act.
I was kind of suprised when I first heard that, but it makes sense. Sex is good and god given when used in it's proper context. And God likes to bless us. I imagine that would be pretty kickin. (People say it is.)
God isn't a prude. But neither is he EVER into anything that degrades a person.
EVER.
Oh yes definately. God invented sex for us to enjoy,and I think it is very sad that some Christians, especially in years past, thought that He left the room when a couple had sex. ::frown:: Its good to pray that God will bless our sex lives as every other part of our lives. A good sex life is so important for a marriage.
OK OK ::beatingdeadhorse::
After Multiple emails I decided to come back to this thread.
First, special thanks chosen one for all your loving words; you truly have compassion.
Here is the follow up from the group:
It went well, very well. To be real, there were a couple awkward silence moments.
We tactfully covered topics ranging from the amazing bond that is created from making love, to the blessing that it is to a marriage, and we came to the conclusion that as long as it is done out of love AND you do not add another person INCLUDING PORN, then it is generally acceptable. Each couple Our group has since thanked us for the discussion and the couple that was having "problems" is now more motivated and empowered to tackle their issues.
Thanks again for all the input.
Bobby
came to learn