Christian Forums

Since I'm usually the outspoken one anyway!  Marrieds, feel free to weigh in with Biblical or Christian based opinion.  Thoughtful discussion please :)

So, is masturbation a sin?  Did God say it is?

What about lust or desire?  What is a healthy attraction to the opposite sex that we as Christian singles should have?  What is not?

I haven't dated since I got saved, I have no idea  ::shrug::

This is something that I have never been quite sure about, because as far as I know the Bible isn't clear on it. I do know that imagining sex or sexual acts with a person you aren't married to isn't right during masturbation, (or using porn), but whether the actual act is wrong, I am not sure, and if it is I cant think why. However for many I would think that masturbation would usually include such sexual thoughts or fantasies?I cant see that occasional use, (and not that totally out of balance or out of control use) of masturbation is bad, but if anyone can show me where it says it is wrong in the Bible, I am willing to be corrected. One of those grey areas I think.

Jesus does tell us not to lust after those of the opposite sex, and so we do need to be careful about staring at others/ imagining anything innappropriate with them/watching things on TV or in films that wont help us in this area/ reading steamy books that wont help in this area etc etc. I suppose much of it is in the mind and what we allow ourselves to think about or dwell on, and taking wrong thoughts captive(not easy of course).

For those of us who are married(well you did say we could contribute. lol) we must confine our thoughts in this area to our own spouses.
For those in serious relationships or who are engaged, well I cant see that kissing or hugging or holding hands is wrong, but probably a good idea to keep it to that till marriage.

Just my thoughts for what they are worth. ::smile::

Those who indulge are disrespecting their bodies. that goes against scripture where it says we are to care for our bodies, and that the body of a Christian is the temple of the Holy Spirit. What would He think of that activity, and what is in one's mind when one masturbates in His home?

Chosenone, thank you :)  I appreciate your response.  It's been on my mind lately, as has the dating and what sort of attraction is okay for a Christian? 

Lively, I can't imagine anyone would think pornographic thoughts are okay.  Not sure I agree with you on the masturbation part though.  We'll see, I am just starting to really think about that as well as the other topic.

I think all are agreed that sex before marriage is a bad deal :)

: fassopony  Fri May 20, 2011 - 21:53:36
Chosenone, thank you :)  I appreciate your response.  It's been on my mind lately, as has the dating and what sort of attraction is okay for a Christian?  

Lively, I can't imagine anyone would think pornographic thoughts are okay.  Not sure I agree with you on the masturbation part though.  We'll see, I am just starting to really think about that as well as the other topic.

I think all are agreed that sex before marriage is a bad deal :)

Therefore sex with yourself is equally a sin. We as believers in Jesus Christ are to take our errant thoughts captive.

2 Corinthians 10:5
We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

I have heard many arguments for and against whether masturbation itself is right or wrong, but from the Bible I havent been convinced either way as yet. However can many people actually do this without fantasising as well? (which would make it wrong of course). I mean, if a husband was away from his wife for a long period, is it wrong for him to masturbate while imaging his own wife?Surely that is better then getting tempted to sin with another woman?

I understand that God does not want me to just use women to look at them and use them for fantasizing. But care about each person, and not just use any person for anything sexual or anything else, but first care about each person.

Ones might say they have sexual "drives" and they say this is "normal" and so they have to do sexual things. But we all were born in sin, with drives that are dominating and not led by the Holy Spirit. I believe the emotions and passions of Jesus are "gentle and lowly" (Matthew 11:29) like He is, and not dominating and forcing us. But in sin we have dominating drives which are in fact for pleasure and so they are not truly sexual because they are not about reproducing children of God's love: they are about what we want for ourselves, and Jesus says, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me." (in Luke 9:23).

So, if we get over our pleasure tripping stuff . . . for food pleasure or sexual pleasure or adrenaline rush pleasure and other pleasures . . . we can get more into how love will have us relating sensitively with God and in caring and sharing with people.

"All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any." (1 Corinthians 6:12)

"You are not restricted by us, but you are restricted by your own affections." (2 Corinthians 6:12)

CCC 2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action." "The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose." For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."

That's great and all LightHammer but that was written by man, not God. It does not explicitly say "do not masturbate" like it does "do not be a drunkard". Don't try to use man's doctrine as God's. I agree with a lot of what's being said, it is hard to masturbate without having lustful images in your head, a lot of times having those images in your head is what brings masturbation about. But like chosen said, what if you're away from your spouse and you are thinking of them at the time? And it also can't be good if it becomes a dominating drive or you over-indulge.

It's very hard to say either way, especially distinguishing between married people and singles. But I don't think anyone should write it in stone saying that it's ok or it's not.

Masturbation is a big sin. God is against it. Your body is the temple of God. If you desire a spouse, pray to God.

: Tiamiyux  Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 02:26:30
Masturbation is a big sin. God is against it. Your body is the temple of God. If you desire a spouse, pray to God.

Where in the Bible does it say that?

: Tiamiyux  Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 02:26:30
Masturbation is a big sin. God is against it. Your body is the temple of God. If you desire a spouse, pray to God.

Exactly!

: mrhockey903  Thu Sep 08, 2011 - 13:50:44
That's great and all LightHammer but that was written by man, not God. It does not explicitly say "do not masturbate" like it does "do not be a drunkard". Don't try to use man's doctrine as God's. I agree with a lot of what's being said, it is hard to masturbate without having lustful images in your head, a lot of times having those images in your head is what brings masturbation about. But like chosen said, what if you're away from your spouse and you are thinking of them at the time? And it also can't be good if it becomes a dominating drive or you over-indulge.

It's very hard to say either way, especially distinguishing between married people and singles. But I don't think anyone should write it in stone saying that it's ok or it's not.

In that case.

This comes from 38th chapter of the Book of Genesis:

    (7) And Her, the firstborn of Juda, was wicked in the sight of the Lord: and was slain by him.

        (8) Juda therefore said to Onan his son: Go in to thy brother's wife and marry her, that thou mayst raise seed to thy brother.

        (9) He, knowing that the children should not be his, when he went in to his brother's wife, spilled his seed upon the ground,
       
        (6)

           lest children should be born in his brother's name.

        (10) And therefore the Lord slew him, because he did a detestable thing.

Onan was sentenced to death by God for ejaculating on the floor. From Sacred Scripture alone it is absolutely clear that masturbation, artificial contraception and any attempts to compromise God's design for sex are wrong in His sight.

: LightHammer  Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 14:30:28

: mrhockey903  Thu Sep 08, 2011 - 13:50:44
That's great and all LightHammer but that was written by man, not God. It does not explicitly say "do not masturbate" like it does "do not be a drunkard". Don't try to use man's doctrine as God's. I agree with a lot of what's being said, it is hard to masturbate without having lustful images in your head, a lot of times having those images in your head is what brings masturbation about. But like chosen said, what if you're away from your spouse and you are thinking of them at the time? And it also can't be good if it becomes a dominating drive or you over-indulge.

It's very hard to say either way, especially distinguishing between married people and singles. But I don't think anyone should write it in stone saying that it's ok or it's not.

In that case.

This comes from 38th chapter of the Book of Genesis:

    (7) And Her, the firstborn of Juda, was wicked in the sight of the Lord: and was slain by him.

        (8) Juda therefore said to Onan his son: Go in to thy brother's wife and marry her, that thou mayst raise seed to thy brother.

        (9) He, knowing that the children should not be his, when he went in to his brother's wife, spilled his seed upon the ground,
       
        (6)

           lest children should be born in his brother's name.

        (10) And therefore the Lord slew him, because he did a detestable thing.

Onan was sentenced to death by God for ejaculating on the floor. From Sacred Scripture alone it is absolutely clear that masturbation, artificial contraception and any attempts to compromise God's design for sex are wrong in His sight.

Please quote the following Scriptures from Genesis 38:

1.  Onan masturbated.
2.  He was killed for THAT reason.
3.  Contraception is always wrong.





.

: fassopony  Fri May 20, 2011 - 16:49:59
Since I'm usually the outspoken one anyway!  Marrieds, feel free to weigh in with Biblical or Christian based opinion.  Thoughtful discussion please :)

So, is masturbation a sin?  Did God say it is?

What about lust or desire?  What is a healthy attraction to the opposite sex that we as Christian singles should have?  What is not?

I haven't dated since I got saved, I have no idea  ::shrug::

1.   Specifically a sin?   I think I'll not touch that (pun intended)....

2.  Would I tell some 13 year old boy that he's ergo going to hell?  No. 

3.  Would I tell a 2 year old girl that she's ergo going to hell?   No.

4.  Do I deny that, "95% of teen boys admit to masturbating and the other 5% are liars?"  No, but I'd say it's probably 4 of the other 5% are liars.

5.  ATTRACTION to the opposite sex is not a sin and is not "lust." 

6.  Married couples have strong physical attractions and probably share marital intimacies - and yet, don't "lust."  Ergo, is lust = sexual attraction to one of the other gender?

7.  If ANY practice causes guilt or a problem in relationships (especially with God), it's not a good idea and I'd counsel it's discontinuation.   

8.  Attempts to "justify" what we inside hold as wrong is probably as harmful as the wrong.  IF this was really a 'non-issue,' we wouldn't be addressing it.






.

: Josiah  Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 15:50:29

: LightHammer  Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 14:30:28

: mrhockey903  Thu Sep 08, 2011 - 13:50:44
That's great and all LightHammer but that was written by man, not God. It does not explicitly say "do not masturbate" like it does "do not be a drunkard". Don't try to use man's doctrine as God's. I agree with a lot of what's being said, it is hard to masturbate without having lustful images in your head, a lot of times having those images in your head is what brings masturbation about. But like chosen said, what if you're away from your spouse and you are thinking of them at the time? And it also can't be good if it becomes a dominating drive or you over-indulge.

It's very hard to say either way, especially distinguishing between married people and singles. But I don't think anyone should write it in stone saying that it's ok or it's not.

In that case.

This comes from 38th chapter of the Book of Genesis:

    (7) And Her, the firstborn of Juda, was wicked in the sight of the Lord: and was slain by him.

        (8) Juda therefore said to Onan his son: Go in to thy brother's wife and marry her, that thou mayst raise seed to thy brother.

        (9) He, knowing that the children should not be his, when he went in to his brother's wife, spilled his seed upon the ground,
       
        (6)

           lest children should be born in his brother's name.

        (10) And therefore the Lord slew him, because he did a detestable thing.

Onan was sentenced to death by God for ejaculating on the floor. From Sacred Scripture alone it is absolutely clear that masturbation, artificial contraception and any attempts to compromise God's design for sex are wrong in His sight.

Please quote the following Scriptures from Genesis 38:

1.  Onan masturbated.
2.  He was killed for THAT reason.
3.  Contraception is always wrong.





.

Please read what you quoted  from me. From your question it is obvious that you haven't. If after you read what I wrote and still have questions I will help you.

: LightHammer  Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 08:00:32

: Josiah  Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 15:50:29

: LightHammer  Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 14:30:28

: mrhockey903  Thu Sep 08, 2011 - 13:50:44
That's great and all LightHammer but that was written by man, not God. It does not explicitly say "do not masturbate" like it does "do not be a drunkard". Don't try to use man's doctrine as God's. I agree with a lot of what's being said, it is hard to masturbate without having lustful images in your head, a lot of times having those images in your head is what brings masturbation about. But like chosen said, what if you're away from your spouse and you are thinking of them at the time? And it also can't be good if it becomes a dominating drive or you over-indulge.

It's very hard to say either way, especially distinguishing between married people and singles. But I don't think anyone should write it in stone saying that it's ok or it's not.

In that case.

This comes from 38th chapter of the Book of Genesis:

   (7) And Her, the firstborn of Juda, was wicked in the sight of the Lord: and was slain by him.

       (8) Juda therefore said to Onan his son: Go in to thy brother's wife and marry her, that thou mayst raise seed to thy brother.

       (9) He, knowing that the children should not be his, when he went in to his brother's wife, spilled his seed upon the ground,
     
       (6)

          lest children should be born in his brother's name.

       (10) And therefore the Lord slew him, because he did a detestable thing.

Onan was sentenced to death by God for ejaculating on the floor. From Sacred Scripture alone it is absolutely clear that masturbation, artificial contraception and any attempts to compromise God's design for sex are wrong in His sight.

Please quote the following Scriptures from Genesis 38:

1.  Onan masturbated.
2.  He was killed for THAT reason.
3.  Contraception is always wrong.





.

Please read what you quoted  from me. From your question it is obvious that you haven't. If after you read what I wrote and still have questions I will help you.

OBVIOUSLY, I read it because I quoted it.

My questions remain.




.

: Josiah  Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 08:32:31

: LightHammer  Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 08:00:32

: Josiah  Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 15:50:29

: LightHammer  Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 14:30:28

: mrhockey903  Thu Sep 08, 2011 - 13:50:44
That's great and all LightHammer but that was written by man, not God. It does not explicitly say "do not masturbate" like it does "do not be a drunkard". Don't try to use man's doctrine as God's. I agree with a lot of what's being said, it is hard to masturbate without having lustful images in your head, a lot of times having those images in your head is what brings masturbation about. But like chosen said, what if you're away from your spouse and you are thinking of them at the time? And it also can't be good if it becomes a dominating drive or you over-indulge.

It's very hard to say either way, especially distinguishing between married people and singles. But I don't think anyone should write it in stone saying that it's ok or it's not.

In that case.

This comes from 38th chapter of the Book of Genesis:

    (7) And Her, the firstborn of Juda, was wicked in the sight of the Lord: and was slain by him.

        (8) Juda therefore said to Onan his son: Go in to thy brother's wife and marry her, that thou mayst raise seed to thy brother.

        (9) He, knowing that the children should not be his, when he went in to his brother's wife, spilled his seed upon the ground,
       
        (6)

           lest children should be born in his brother's name.

        (10) And therefore the Lord slew him, because he did a detestable thing.

Onan was sentenced to death by God for ejaculating on the floor. From Sacred Scripture alone it is absolutely clear that masturbation, artificial contraception and any attempts to compromise God's design for sex are wrong in His sight.

Please quote the following Scriptures from Genesis 38:

1.  Onan masturbated.
2.  He was killed for THAT reason.
3.  Contraception is always wrong.





.

Please read what you quoted  from me. From your question it is obvious that you haven't. If after you read what I wrote and still have questions I will help you.

OBVIOUSLY, I read it because I quoted it.

My questions remain.




.

There's no way you could have read it. This discussion will be pointless if you don't read what I write.

Please. Its not a long post. If you have read it, which I simply don't see how you can have the question if you did, then read it again.

If after you have read it then we can talk.

: LightHammer  Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 08:39:22

: Josiah  Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 08:32:31

: LightHammer  Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 08:00:32

: Josiah  Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 15:50:29

: LightHammer  Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 14:30:28

: mrhockey903  Thu Sep 08, 2011 - 13:50:44
That's great and all LightHammer but that was written by man, not God. It does not explicitly say "do not masturbate" like it does "do not be a drunkard". Don't try to use man's doctrine as God's. I agree with a lot of what's being said, it is hard to masturbate without having lustful images in your head, a lot of times having those images in your head is what brings masturbation about. But like chosen said, what if you're away from your spouse and you are thinking of them at the time? And it also can't be good if it becomes a dominating drive or you over-indulge.

It's very hard to say either way, especially distinguishing between married people and singles. But I don't think anyone should write it in stone saying that it's ok or it's not.

In that case.

This comes from 38th chapter of the Book of Genesis:

    (7) And Her, the firstborn of Juda, was wicked in the sight of the Lord: and was slain by him.

        (8) Juda therefore said to Onan his son: Go in to thy brother's wife and marry her, that thou mayst raise seed to thy brother.

        (9) He, knowing that the children should not be his, when he went in to his brother's wife, spilled his seed upon the ground,
       
        (6)

           lest children should be born in his brother's name.

        (10) And therefore the Lord slew him, because he did a detestable thing.

Onan was sentenced to death by God for ejaculating on the floor. From Sacred Scripture alone it is absolutely clear that masturbation, artificial contraception and any attempts to compromise God's design for sex are wrong in His sight.

Please quote the following Scriptures from Genesis 38:

1.  Onan masturbated.
2.  He was killed for THAT reason.
3.  Contraception is always wrong.





.

Please read what you quoted  from me. From your question it is obvious that you haven't. If after you read what I wrote and still have questions I will help you.

OBVIOUSLY, I read it because I quoted it.

My questions remain.




.

There's no way you could have read it. This discussion will be pointless if you don't read what I write.

Please. Its not a long post. If you have read it, which I simply don't see how you can have the question if you did, then read it again.

If after you have read it then we can talk.

I've read it.  Every word.

Is there a reason you don't want to discuss what you posted, you don't want to address my questions to you?





.

: Josiah  Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 08:57:33

: LightHammer  Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 08:39:22

: Josiah  Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 08:32:31

: LightHammer  Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 08:00:32

: Josiah  Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 15:50:29

: LightHammer  Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 14:30:28

: mrhockey903  Thu Sep 08, 2011 - 13:50:44
That's great and all LightHammer but that was written by man, not God. It does not explicitly say "do not masturbate" like it does "do not be a drunkard". Don't try to use man's doctrine as God's. I agree with a lot of what's being said, it is hard to masturbate without having lustful images in your head, a lot of times having those images in your head is what brings masturbation about. But like chosen said, what if you're away from your spouse and you are thinking of them at the time? And it also can't be good if it becomes a dominating drive or you over-indulge.

It's very hard to say either way, especially distinguishing between married people and singles. But I don't think anyone should write it in stone saying that it's ok or it's not.

In that case.

This comes from 38th chapter of the Book of Genesis:

    (7) And Her, the firstborn of Juda, was wicked in the sight of the Lord: and was slain by him.

        (8) Juda therefore said to Onan his son: Go in to thy brother's wife and marry her, that thou mayst raise seed to thy brother.

        (9) He, knowing that the children should not be his, when he went in to his brother's wife, spilled his seed upon the ground,
       
        (6)

           lest children should be born in his brother's name.

        (10) And therefore the Lord slew him, because he did a detestable thing.

Onan was sentenced to death by God for ejaculating on the floor. From Sacred Scripture alone it is absolutely clear that masturbation, artificial contraception and any attempts to compromise God's design for sex are wrong in His sight.

Please quote the following Scriptures from Genesis 38:

1.  Onan masturbated.
2.  He was killed for THAT reason.
3.  Contraception is always wrong.





.

Please read what you quoted  from me. From your question it is obvious that you haven't. If after you read what I wrote and still have questions I will help you.

OBVIOUSLY, I read it because I quoted it.

My questions remain.




.

There's no way you could have read it. This discussion will be pointless if you don't read what I write.

Please. Its not a long post. If you have read it, which I simply don't see how you can have the question if you did, then read it again.

If after you have read it then we can talk.

I've read it.  Every word.

Is there a reason you don't want to discuss what you posted, you don't want to address my questions to you?





.

Its not that unreasonable or complex. I simply want you to read what I posted before you attempt to respond to me.

I don't see what the issue is.

: LightHammer  Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 09:00:45

: Josiah  Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 08:57:33

: LightHammer  Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 08:39:22

: Josiah  Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 08:32:31

: LightHammer  Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 08:00:32

: Josiah  Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 15:50:29

: LightHammer  Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 14:30:28

: mrhockey903  Thu Sep 08, 2011 - 13:50:44
That's great and all LightHammer but that was written by man, not God. It does not explicitly say "do not masturbate" like it does "do not be a drunkard". Don't try to use man's doctrine as God's. I agree with a lot of what's being said, it is hard to masturbate without having lustful images in your head, a lot of times having those images in your head is what brings masturbation about. But like chosen said, what if you're away from your spouse and you are thinking of them at the time? And it also can't be good if it becomes a dominating drive or you over-indulge.

It's very hard to say either way, especially distinguishing between married people and singles. But I don't think anyone should write it in stone saying that it's ok or it's not.

In that case.

This comes from 38th chapter of the Book of Genesis:

   (7) And Her, the firstborn of Juda, was wicked in the sight of the Lord: and was slain by him.

       (8) Juda therefore said to Onan his son: Go in to thy brother's wife and marry her, that thou mayst raise seed to thy brother.

       (9) He, knowing that the children should not be his, when he went in to his brother's wife, spilled his seed upon the ground,
     
       (6)

          lest children should be born in his brother's name.

       (10) And therefore the Lord slew him, because he did a detestable thing.

Onan was sentenced to death by God for ejaculating on the floor. From Sacred Scripture alone it is absolutely clear that masturbation, artificial contraception and any attempts to compromise God's design for sex are wrong in His sight.

Please quote the following Scriptures from Genesis 38:

1.  Onan masturbated.
2.  He was killed for THAT reason.
3.  Contraception is always wrong.





.

Please read what you quoted  from me. From your question it is obvious that you haven't. If after you read what I wrote and still have questions I will help you.

OBVIOUSLY, I read it because I quoted it.

My questions remain.




.

There's no way you could have read it. This discussion will be pointless if you don't read what I write.

Please. Its not a long post. If you have read it, which I simply don't see how you can have the question if you did, then read it again.

If after you have read it then we can talk.

I've read it.  Every word.

Is there a reason you don't want to discuss what you posted, you don't want to address my questions to you?





.

Its not that unreasonable or complex. I simply want you to read what I posted before you attempt to respond to me.

I don't see what the issue is.

1.  AGAIN, I have read every single word you have posted in this read.  More than once.  

2.  Did you read what I posted?   I  put it into enbolden, red font for you.

3.  IF so, why do you so strongly desire to evade and avoid what I asked?





.

: Josiah  Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 09:14:10

: LightHammer  Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 09:00:45

: Josiah  Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 08:57:33

: LightHammer  Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 08:39:22

: Josiah  Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 08:32:31

: LightHammer  Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 08:00:32

: Josiah  Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 15:50:29

: LightHammer  Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 14:30:28

: mrhockey903  Thu Sep 08, 2011 - 13:50:44
That's great and all LightHammer but that was written by man, not God. It does not explicitly say "do not masturbate" like it does "do not be a drunkard". Don't try to use man's doctrine as God's. I agree with a lot of what's being said, it is hard to masturbate without having lustful images in your head, a lot of times having those images in your head is what brings masturbation about. But like chosen said, what if you're away from your spouse and you are thinking of them at the time? And it also can't be good if it becomes a dominating drive or you over-indulge.

It's very hard to say either way, especially distinguishing between married people and singles. But I don't think anyone should write it in stone saying that it's ok or it's not.

In that case.

This comes from 38th chapter of the Book of Genesis:

   (7) And Her, the firstborn of Juda, was wicked in the sight of the Lord: and was slain by him.

       (8) Juda therefore said to Onan his son: Go in to thy brother's wife and marry her, that thou mayst raise seed to thy brother.

       (9) He, knowing that the children should not be his, when he went in to his brother's wife, spilled his seed upon the ground,
     
       (6)

          lest children should be born in his brother's name.

       (10) And therefore the Lord slew him, because he did a detestable thing.

Onan was sentenced to death by God for ejaculating on the floor. From Sacred Scripture alone it is absolutely clear that masturbation, artificial contraception and any attempts to compromise God's design for sex are wrong in His sight.

Please quote the following Scriptures from Genesis 38:

1.  Onan masturbated.
2.  He was killed for THAT reason.
3.  Contraception is always wrong.





.

Please read what you quoted  from me. From your question it is obvious that you haven't. If after you read what I wrote and still have questions I will help you.

OBVIOUSLY, I read it because I quoted it.

My questions remain.




.

There's no way you could have read it. This discussion will be pointless if you don't read what I write.

Please. Its not a long post. If you have read it, which I simply don't see how you can have the question if you did, then read it again.

If after you have read it then we can talk.

I've read it.  Every word.

Is there a reason you don't want to discuss what you posted, you don't want to address my questions to you?





.

Its not that unreasonable or complex. I simply want you to read what I posted before you attempt to respond to me.

I don't see what the issue is.

1.  AGAIN, I have read every single word you have posted in this read.  More than once.  

2.  Did you read what I posted?   I  put it into enbolden, red font for you.

3.  IF so, why do you so strongly desire to evade and avoid what I asked?





.

Forgive me there's simply no way you could have read the post and think your question is valid.

: LightHammer  Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 09:31:52

: Josiah  Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 09:14:10

: LightHammer  Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 09:00:45

: Josiah  Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 08:57:33

: LightHammer  Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 08:39:22

: Josiah  Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 08:32:31

: LightHammer  Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 08:00:32

: Josiah  Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 15:50:29

: LightHammer  Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 14:30:28

: mrhockey903  Thu Sep 08, 2011 - 13:50:44
That's great and all LightHammer but that was written by man, not God. It does not explicitly say "do not masturbate" like it does "do not be a drunkard". Don't try to use man's doctrine as God's. I agree with a lot of what's being said, it is hard to masturbate without having lustful images in your head, a lot of times having those images in your head is what brings masturbation about. But like chosen said, what if you're away from your spouse and you are thinking of them at the time? And it also can't be good if it becomes a dominating drive or you over-indulge.

It's very hard to say either way, especially distinguishing between married people and singles. But I don't think anyone should write it in stone saying that it's ok or it's not.

In that case.

This comes from 38th chapter of the Book of Genesis:

   (7) And Her, the firstborn of Juda, was wicked in the sight of the Lord: and was slain by him.

       (8) Juda therefore said to Onan his son: Go in to thy brother's wife and marry her, that thou mayst raise seed to thy brother.

       (9) He, knowing that the children should not be his, when he went in to his brother's wife, spilled his seed upon the ground,
     
       (6)

          lest children should be born in his brother's name.

       (10) And therefore the Lord slew him, because he did a detestable thing.

Onan was sentenced to death by God for ejaculating on the floor. From Sacred Scripture alone it is absolutely clear that masturbation, artificial contraception and any attempts to compromise God's design for sex are wrong in His sight.

Please quote the following Scriptures from Genesis 38:

1.  Onan masturbated.
2.  He was killed for THAT reason.
3.  Contraception is always wrong.





.

Please read what you quoted  from me. From your question it is obvious that you haven't. If after you read what I wrote and still have questions I will help you.

OBVIOUSLY, I read it because I quoted it.

My questions remain.




.

There's no way you could have read it. This discussion will be pointless if you don't read what I write.

Please. Its not a long post. If you have read it, which I simply don't see how you can have the question if you did, then read it again.

If after you have read it then we can talk.

I've read it.  Every word.

Is there a reason you don't want to discuss what you posted, you don't want to address my questions to you?





.

Its not that unreasonable or complex. I simply want you to read what I posted before you attempt to respond to me.

I don't see what the issue is.

1.  AGAIN, I have read every single word you have posted in this read.  More than once.  

2.  Did you read what I posted?   I  put it into enbolden, red font for you.

3.  IF so, why do you so strongly desire to evade and avoid what I asked?





.

Forgive me there's simply no way you could have read the post and think your question is valid.

If you don't want to discuss, the better approach is to just ignore what people post to you.  Staffer, this IS a discussion forum.


You made a statement (in blue, embolden font in case you didn't read what you posted).  I asked for the substantiation.   

Oh, well....





.

: fassopony  Fri May 20, 2011 - 16:49:59
Since I'm usually the outspoken one anyway!  Marrieds, feel free to weigh in with Biblical or Christian based opinion.  Thoughtful discussion please :)

So, is masturbation a sin?  Did God say it is?

What about lust or desire?  What is a healthy attraction to the opposite sex that we as Christian singles should have?  What is not?

OK old married geezer (a grandfather) here.

An interesting discussion so far.  I have a somewhat different take on this subject.

As a young single I struggled with this for years.  Is it ok, not ok? Some said it was such a bad sin that even the HOLY bible itself could not directly mention it and stay holy. The church I was in in college had their morality police come around and question us single guys every few months to make sure we were not doing it. It drove me crazy.

Then, 2 months after I got married they played the first video series by Dr Dobson "Focus on the Family" (which later became the name of his ministry) and the last segment dealt with "M." He was for it but approached it with such humility and scripturality that the congregational leaders publicly apologised to us all.  

[sarcasm] Thanks a lot....[/sarcasm]

But still I struggled with whether it was ok or not REALLY.

It was finally reading "The Gift of Sex" by Dr and Mrs. Penner that convinced me.  They found a passage in the Song of Solomon (first few verses of chapter 5) that describe Shulamite doing the "M" and still being described as "undefiled."

I was never quite sure how it all fit in until I came to the Messianic movement and realized just how much God deals with us thru covenant.  Moses wrote that husband and wife are "one flesh." That is a function of covenant. Believers (see Jn 17) in the New Covenant are also one, both with each other and with the Lord Himself.

So we all agree sex is allowed within the "one flesh" covenant relationship.

So where does that leave "M?"  Are we not already "one flesh" ourselves? I am allowed to have sex with my wife because now she is a part of ME. But I am already ME. So whether I have sex with her or by my self, it is still covenantally with ME.

Where that leaves Onan is, not that he M-ed, but that he covenantally deprived his wife of offspring. (and in the process cheated his dead brother).  He had all the sexual pleasure but none of the responsibility.

And now where does that leave a frustrated single christian?  With the freedom of self-relief but with the caveat of not including (even in thought or imagination) joining with someone else they are not married to.

IOW, no sex with anyone else, no porn, no daydreaming about having sex with someone else.

That is my take on the subject.  It is not shared with anyone but my wife. If you can find something useful, great.  If not, ignore it.

Does anyone think Jesus masturbated?  If not, then why not?

: Catholica  Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 10:34:52
Does anyone think Jesus masturbated?  If not, then why not?

That is a strawman argument.

No one can give any answer to that. But there is an insinuation behind the question. That insinuation decries His humanity in favor of His divinity.

Yes people have made the argument that He could not have possibly done that because M = fornication or adultery and He was without sin.  But that makes the assumption that M = sin; which is not directly supported in scripture.

They have also argued that ejecting semen makes one unclean.  That is true.
And that HE as the Son of God could not possibly be made unclean.  That is not so clear.  He did on occasion touch a few dead corpses - the worst kind of uncleanness which required the ashes of a red heifer to purge. 

But please note: being ceremonially unclean is NOT sinful. THere were things commanded in the Law that inherently made one unclean. Normal marital relations were commanded and they rendered one unclean. Childbirth rendered one unclean.

: DaveW  Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 12:34:19

: Catholica  Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 10:34:52
Does anyone think Jesus masturbated?  If not, then why not?

That is a strawman argument.

No one can give any answer to that. But there is an insinuation behind the question. That insinuation decries His humanity in favor of His divinity.

Yes people have made the argument that He could not have possibly done that because M = fornication or adultery and He was without sin.  But that makes the assumption that M = sin; which is not directly supported in scripture.

They have also argued that ejecting semen makes one unclean.  That is true.
And that HE as the Son of God could not possibly be made unclean.  That is not so clear.  He did on occasion touch a few dead corpses - the worst kind of uncleanness which required the ashes of a red heifer to purge. 

But please note: being ceremonially unclean is NOT sinful. THere were things commanded in the Law that inherently made one unclean. Normal marital relations were commanded and they rendered one unclean. Childbirth rendered one unclean.

Did you by any chance read Gensis 38 or my post?

: DaveW  Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 12:34:19

: Catholica  Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 10:34:52
Does anyone think Jesus masturbated?  If not, then why not?

That is a strawman argument.

No one can give any answer to that. But there is an insinuation behind the question. That insinuation decries His humanity in favor of His divinity.

You have implied something that I have not, nor wanted to.  Jesus was human and divine.  Just because Jesus was divine doesn't mean that he was any less human.  Jesus had a perfectly working body which was perfectly capable of doing what any man or woman is capable of doing, including masturbate.

Some people are implying that masturbation is not a sin.  So then if it were not a sin, then by extension is it not possible that Jesus masturbated? 

We do know that Jesus only did the Father's will.  Do you think it would be the Father's will for his only begotten son to masturbate?

If so, then someone might have the argument that, by masturbating, they are saying to God, thy will be done.  But in reality masturbation is an incredibly selfish act.  It has no regard to the spiritual realm and only regards one purely sensual desires.

What does the Bible say about selfishness?

2 Timothy 3
1 But understand this: there will be terrifying times in the last days.a
2 People will be self-centered and lovers of money, proud, haughty, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, irreligious,
3 callous, implacable, slanderous, licentious, brutal, hating what is good,
4 traitors, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
5 as they make a pretense of religion but deny its power. Reject them.

Also consider this verse:

Galatians 5
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions,
21envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

Masturbation is clearly a grave sin, demonstrating a lack of self-control, and it will keep people from walking in the Spirit.  God's wants to set us free, but masturbation is slavery.    God wants us to grow in self-control, but masturbation is the opposite of self-control.  Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.  That means, if we are to belong to Christ Jesus, we are to work with God's help to overcome the desires of the flesh, and that means resisting the temptation to masturbate, among other things.

Jesus did not masturbate not only because it is a grave sin, but also because he was in full control of his passions, being made perfect.  Through His sanctification, Jesus wants to conform us into himself, and that means to be like Jesus we too have to strive to not become slaves to our flesh but to become masters over it.  Masturbation is a complete rejection or giving in to the flesh, and the grave message I quoted from Galatians 5 should be taken to heart.

Masturbation uses the mind to conjure up ideas and pictures that stimulate. Jesus didn't sin in that way, and it is disgusting that anyone would stoop so low as to even consider that Jesus would commit any sin, let alone a sexual one.

Anyone who follows after God fully has no time to even consider such a useless time waster.

: LightHammer  Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 14:32:36
Did you by any chance read Gensis 38 or my post?

I did.
It says NOTHING about masturbation or that it's wrong.
It might be - I'm not saying otherwise - only that Genesis 38 doesn't say so.



.

Catholica, you are making (or parroting) some assumptions not supported in scripture.  Scripture NEVER says that M is inherently selfish, It certainly CAN be, but not necessarily.

You also list a bunch of verses about desires of the flesh, immorality, not inheriting the kingdom, etc.  You have yet to make a scriptural case that M is actually covered by any of that.   Eating would fit that scenario as well. Are we forbidden from eating?

You ASSUME that M is immoral.
You ASSUME that M is the desire of the flesh (and this 'flesh' is NOT the physical body but the fallen adamic original-sin nature of man)

Masturbation is clearly a grave sin, demonstrating a lack of self-control,

Some use it as a form of self-control to keep the physical desires from besting them.

Besides, Paul NEVER said the remedy for strong sexual desire was more self control. Indeed he does not condemn lack of sexual self control at all. Rather he says this:

1Co 7:5  Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

1Co 7:9  But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

In that day marriage came during the early teens, His remedy is to get married. Indeed that is the best way of channeling those desires. But that is not always available.  In those cases, especially in light of Song of Solomon 5, M is an available solution.

: DaveW  Sun Oct 16, 2011 - 10:58:52
In that day marriage came during the early teens, His remedy is to get married. Indeed that is the best way of channeling those desires. But that is not always available.  In those cases, especially in light of Song of Solomon 5, M is an available solution.

Solution to what? Lack of control?

This thread is further evidence that, even with scripture, anyone can justify any sin to themselves.  I even heard someone (on this forum) making a similar argument that seeing a prostitute was not a sin.

The temptation to masturbate and to lust after someone stems from a fallen human nature combined with human passions.  If one has self-control, then they don't lust or masturbate in spite of human passions.

I'm interested in why people think that Paul condemns "sexual immorality".  How do I "sexual immoral"?  No, I didn't type that wrong.  The fact is, Paul already had an idea what acts constituted "sexual immorality" when he used that term.  He didn't bother to list all the kinds.  It doesn't take much imagination to list them all here.

Natural law.  Not many people want to believe it these days.  But the natural law tells us that our bodies were created for a reason.  Our genitalia was created for two inseparable things: procreation and mutual pleasure with a mate.  Masturbation is inherently contraceptive, denying the God-created use of our bodies that part of what it was naturally created for.  This is obvious to everyone.

Finally, it takes a lot of mental gymnastics to say that masturbation is not selfish.  Who exactly are you serving by masturbating?

If you don't think that you are a making yourself a slave to your passions when you masturbate, then try to stop.  It is hard, isn't it?  But I tell you that with God's grace you can stop, but it takes much prayer and perseverance.  And you can choose not to give in to lust also by removing yourself from the situation, making a covenant with your eyes, etc.   God gives you the grace to resist sinning.  By stopping masturbating and resisting any lustful desires, you can become in control of yourself as God intends you to be.  There is no way that one can overcome lustful desires by masturbating.

: DaveW  Sun Oct 16, 2011 - 10:58:52
Catholica, you are making (or parroting) some assumptions not supported in scripture.  Scripture NEVER says that M is inherently selfish, It certainly CAN be, but not necessarily.

You also list a bunch of verses about desires of the flesh, immorality, not inheriting the kingdom, etc.  You have yet to make a scriptural case that M is actually covered by any of that.   Eating would fit that scenario as well. Are we forbidden from eating?

You ASSUME that M is immoral.
You ASSUME that M is the desire of the flesh (and this 'flesh' is NOT the physical body but the fallen adamic original-sin nature of man)

Masturbation is clearly a grave sin, demonstrating a lack of self-control,

Some use it as a form of self-control to keep the physical desires from besting them.

Besides, Paul NEVER said the remedy for strong sexual desire was more self control. Indeed he does not condemn lack of sexual self control at all. Rather he says this:

1Co 7:5  Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

1Co 7:9  But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

In that day marriage came during the early teens, His remedy is to get married. Indeed that is the best way of channeling those desires. But that is not always available.  In those cases, especially in light of Song of Solomon 5, M is an available solution.

I would think Genesis 38 would clear this up with ease.

: Catholica  Sun Oct 16, 2011 - 13:28:55
I'm interested in why people think that Paul condemns "sexual immorality".  How do I "sexual immoral"?  No, I didn't type that wrong.  The fact is, Paul already had an idea what acts constituted "sexual immorality" when he used that term.  He didn't bother to list all the kinds.  It doesn't take much imagination to list them all here.

They ALL are already listed in scripture - Most are in Leviticus.

And M is conspicuous by its absence.

: LightHammer  Sun Oct 16, 2011 - 13:39:58
I would think Genesis 38 would clear this up with ease.

6 Now Judah took a wife for Er his firstborn, and her name was Tamar.
7 But Er, Judah's firstborn, was evil in the sight of the LORD, so the LORD took his life.
8 Then Judah said to Onan, "Go in to your brother's wife, and perform your duty as a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother.

: DaveW  Mon Oct 17, 2011 - 08:12:46

: LightHammer  Sun Oct 16, 2011 - 13:39:58
I would think Genesis 38 would clear this up with ease.

6 Now Judah took a wife for Er his firstborn, and her name was Tamar.
7 But Er, Judah's firstborn, was evil in the sight of the LORD, so the LORD took his life.
8 Then Judah said to Onan, "Go in to your brother's wife, and perform your duty as a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother.

: DaveW  Mon Oct 17, 2011 - 08:06:37

: Catholica  Sun Oct 16, 2011 - 13:28:55
I'm interested in why people think that Paul condemns "sexual immorality".  How do I "sexual immoral"?  No, I didn't type that wrong.  The fact is, Paul already had an idea what acts constituted "sexual immorality" when he used that term.  He didn't bother to list all the kinds.  It doesn't take much imagination to list them all here.

They ALL are already listed in scripture - Most are in Leviticus.

And M is conspicuous by its absence.

I agree, it is never mentioned.

: chosenone  Mon Oct 17, 2011 - 11:29:47

: DaveW  Mon Oct 17, 2011 - 08:06:37

: Catholica  Sun Oct 16, 2011 - 13:28:55
I'm interested in why people think that Paul condemns "sexual immorality".  How do I "sexual immoral"?  No, I didn't type that wrong.  The fact is, Paul already had an idea what acts constituted "sexual immorality" when he used that term.  He didn't bother to list all the kinds.  It doesn't take much imagination to list them all here.

They ALL are already listed in scripture - Most are in Leviticus.

And M is conspicuous by its absence.

I agree, it is never mentioned.

Onan. Gensis 38. Pull out method. Matsurbation.

: DaveW  Mon Oct 17, 2011 - 08:06:37

: Catholica  Sun Oct 16, 2011 - 13:28:55
I'm interested in why people think that Paul condemns "sexual immorality".  How do I "sexual immoral"?  No, I didn't type that wrong.  The fact is, Paul already had an idea what acts constituted "sexual immorality" when he used that term.  He didn't bother to list all the kinds.  It doesn't take much imagination to list them all here.

They ALL are already listed in scripture - Most are in Leviticus.

And M is conspicuous by its absence.

Not to be confrontational, but ALL?  Really?  I highly doubt that all sexual perversions that people have thought up are explicitly listed in scripture.

The Mishnah, which you are probably familiar with, that being the recording of the Oral Torah or Oral Tradition held by the Jews of Jesus' time, including Jesus himself, through one of its authoritative interpretive documents, the Babylonian Talmud, refers to the sin of Onan as a masturbatory act, and states that the man who masturbates should have his hand chopped off.  Reference. (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/sex.html#Masturbation)

...not that we Christians accept the Mishnah or Talmud, but the point is, in concert with what LightHammer has written, that the sin of Onanism in Judaism, even ancient Judaism, was the sin of masturbation.  The scripture says "God killed him for what he did," not what he didn't do.  This thing that Onan was punished for has always also been held to condemn the masturbatory act.

Yes I am familiar with the Mishnah. The Babylonian Talmud (published circa 500 ad) was an expansion of the Mishnah (published circa 200 ad) as was the Jerusalem (aka Palestinian) Talmud. (circa 400 ad)

That passage is not in the Mishnah, but does appear in the Talmud. From the texts, much of what was written in the talmuds were in reaction to Greek Paganism and early Christianity.

We do know that M was a common passtime in the Greek and Roman baths. It was often tied to the pagan worship  of their pantheon. One story tells of a Talmud era rabbi who was physically assaulted in a bath and not allowed to leave until he joined them in their circle jerk. He was humiliated but complied. What was written was in response to that incident.

It is interesting to note that in the heiroglyphics of Egypt from the Pre-Rameses II era when it is most likely that Israel were being held as slaves to build pyramids that there are MANY depictions of M in those buildings.  (engraved by Jewish slaves) so it was a very well known activity. There is absolutely NO MENTION of it in the Law. Nocturnal emissions are mentioned, as is beastiality and homosexuality, sex with slaves, premarital sex, anal sex, sex during menses, etc.   But nothing about M.

You explain that.

: DaveW  Tue Oct 18, 2011 - 06:55:37
Yes I am familiar with the Mishnah. The Babylonian Talmud (published circa 500 ad) was an expansion of the Mishnah (published circa 200 ad) as was the Jerusalem (aka Palestinian) Talmud. (circa 400 ad)

That passage is not in the Mishnah, but does appear in the Talmud. From the texts, much of what was written in the talmuds were in reaction to Greek Paganism and early Christianity.

We do know that M was a common passtime in the Greek and Roman baths. It was often tied to the pagan worship  of their pantheon. One story tells of a Talmud era rabbi who was physically assaulted in a bath and not allowed to leave until he joined them in their circle jerk. He was humiliated but complied. What was written was in response to that incident.

It is interesting to note that in the heiroglyphics of Egypt from the Pre-Rameses II era when it is most likely that Israel were being held as slaves to build pyramids that there are MANY depictions of M in those buildings.  (engraved by Jewish slaves) so it was a very well known activity. There is absolutely NO MENTION of it in the Law. Nocturnal emissions are mentioned, as is beastiality and homosexuality, sex with slaves, premarital sex, anal sex, sex during menses, etc.   But nothing about M.

You explain that.

No seriously Onan. Genesis 38:6-10 cross referenced with Deuteronomy 25:5-10. Pull out method.

What's really left to talk about?

: LightHammer  Tue Oct 18, 2011 - 07:26:07

: DaveW  Tue Oct 18, 2011 - 06:55:37
Yes I am familiar with the Mishnah. The Babylonian Talmud (published circa 500 ad) was an expansion of the Mishnah (published circa 200 ad) as was the Jerusalem (aka Palestinian) Talmud. (circa 400 ad)

That passage is not in the Mishnah, but does appear in the Talmud. From the texts, much of what was written in the talmuds were in reaction to Greek Paganism and early Christianity.

We do know that M was a common passtime in the Greek and Roman baths. It was often tied to the pagan worship  of their pantheon. One story tells of a Talmud era rabbi who was physically assaulted in a bath and not allowed to leave until he joined them in their circle jerk. He was humiliated but complied. What was written was in response to that incident.

It is interesting to note that in the heiroglyphics of Egypt from the Pre-Rameses II era when it is most likely that Israel were being held as slaves to build pyramids that there are MANY depictions of M in those buildings.  (engraved by Jewish slaves) so it was a very well known activity. There is absolutely NO MENTION of it in the Law. Nocturnal emissions are mentioned, as is beastiality and homosexuality, sex with slaves, premarital sex, anal sex, sex during menses, etc.   But nothing about M.

You explain that.

No seriously Onan. Genesis 38:6-10 cross referenced with Deuteronomy 25:5-10. Pull out method.

What's really left to talk about?

To me this is totally a different issue from masturbation.IT was the reason that he did it that made it wrong. To me the only thing that can make masturbation wrong Biblically is if the one doing is is imagining pornographic images while they do it. There seem to be silence on it in the Bible, so one of those grey areas.

: chosenone  Tue Oct 18, 2011 - 07:35:27

: LightHammer  Tue Oct 18, 2011 - 07:26:07

: DaveW  Tue Oct 18, 2011 - 06:55:37
Yes I am familiar with the Mishnah. The Babylonian Talmud (published circa 500 ad) was an expansion of the Mishnah (published circa 200 ad) as was the Jerusalem (aka Palestinian) Talmud. (circa 400 ad)

That passage is not in the Mishnah, but does appear in the Talmud. From the texts, much of what was written in the talmuds were in reaction to Greek Paganism and early Christianity.

We do know that M was a common passtime in the Greek and Roman baths. It was often tied to the pagan worship  of their pantheon. One story tells of a Talmud era rabbi who was physically assaulted in a bath and not allowed to leave until he joined them in their circle jerk. He was humiliated but complied. What was written was in response to that incident.

It is interesting to note that in the heiroglyphics of Egypt from the Pre-Rameses II era when it is most likely that Israel were being held as slaves to build pyramids that there are MANY depictions of M in those buildings.  (engraved by Jewish slaves) so it was a very well known activity. There is absolutely NO MENTION of it in the Law. Nocturnal emissions are mentioned, as is beastiality and homosexuality, sex with slaves, premarital sex, anal sex, sex during menses, etc.   But nothing about M.

You explain that.

No seriously Onan. Genesis 38:6-10 cross referenced with Deuteronomy 25:5-10. Pull out method.

What's really left to talk about?

To me this is totally a different issue from masturbation.IT was the reason that he did it that made it wrong. To me the only thing that can make masturbation wrong Biblically is if the one doing is is imagining pornographic images while they do it. There seem to be silence on it in the Bible, so one of those grey areas.

Yea I'm definitely done with this.

All I can suggest is that, like fasting, refraining from indulging bodily passions frees up the body and the mind and helps us raise our thoughts to God, rather than keeping them tethered to our flesh.

Truly, my life has been better since I stopped, five years ago now.   I am a better person for it.  Try it for yourself.  I think that, if you struggle through it, with prayer to God to help you refrain, you will realize that you are also a better person for it.  I think that is what God wants for us, to be more holy and more like Jesus.

Catholica, I will not argue the value you have found it that; especially if you personally believe the Lord had you to stop it, and you found the grace to do so.

In fact I think that it is great!

But, that said, I think where it goes wrong is assuming that if God has that for you, He has it for everyone.

In Latin rite catholicism, all priests are forbidden to get married. That is fine as there is a charismatic gift of celebacy. That means it is given by the Holy Spirit to some, probably as rare as those who have a true gift of supernatural healing.  (also a charismatic gift)

But what if a person choses the priesthood who does not have that gift of grace? We have all read some of the results of that. (and I never understood why they were not allowed into another rite)

There are only a few things in this New Covenant life that come in "one size fits all." We are not all eyes or all hands or all feet or ears or noses. (1 Cor 12) Each one is given his or her own personal grace.  Many do not have the grace to forego orgasmic release for years (or even weeks) on end.

: LightHammer  Mon Oct 17, 2011 - 11:31:31

: chosenone  Mon Oct 17, 2011 - 11:29:47

: DaveW  Mon Oct 17, 2011 - 08:06:37

: Catholica  Sun Oct 16, 2011 - 13:28:55
I'm interested in why people think that Paul condemns "sexual immorality".  How do I "sexual immoral"?  No, I didn't type that wrong.  The fact is, Paul already had an idea what acts constituted "sexual immorality" when he used that term.  He didn't bother to list all the kinds.  It doesn't take much imagination to list them all here.

They ALL are already listed in scripture - Most are in Leviticus.

And M is conspicuous by its absence.

I agree, it is never mentioned.

Onan. Gensis 38. Pull out method. Matsurbation.

Get our your dictionary.
Look up the word.
You are ENTIRELY confusing two ENTIRELY different things.


Yes, you've quoted Genesis 38.  What you've NOT done is substantiate the masturbation is THEREIN condemned (or even that it happened).  You may be correct in your condemnation of the practice, but your apologetic is entirely empty (and it seems, based entirely on a misunderstanding of what masturbation even is, which is rather shocking to me). 





.

I honestly don't think masturbation is any more spiritual than defecating, or any more sinful for that matter. It is what it is. If you do not do it in faith you are committing sin. I touch myself when I wash myself. Is that sin? Hmm.

: chosenone  Tue Oct 18, 2011 - 07:35:27

: LightHammer  Tue Oct 18, 2011 - 07:26:07

: DaveW  Tue Oct 18, 2011 - 06:55:37
Yes I am familiar with the Mishnah. The Babylonian Talmud (published circa 500 ad) was an expansion of the Mishnah (published circa 200 ad) as was the Jerusalem (aka Palestinian) Talmud. (circa 400 ad)

That passage is not in the Mishnah, but does appear in the Talmud. From the texts, much of what was written in the talmuds were in reaction to Greek Paganism and early Christianity.

We do know that M was a common passtime in the Greek and Roman baths. It was often tied to the pagan worship  of their pantheon. One story tells of a Talmud era rabbi who was physically assaulted in a bath and not allowed to leave until he joined them in their circle jerk. He was humiliated but complied. What was written was in response to that incident.

It is interesting to note that in the heiroglyphics of Egypt from the Pre-Rameses II era when it is most likely that Israel were being held as slaves to build pyramids that there are MANY depictions of M in those buildings.  (engraved by Jewish slaves) so it was a very well known activity. There is absolutely NO MENTION of it in the Law. Nocturnal emissions are mentioned, as is beastiality and homosexuality, sex with slaves, premarital sex, anal sex, sex during menses, etc.   But nothing about M.

You explain that.

No seriously Onan. Genesis 38:6-10 cross referenced with Deuteronomy 25:5-10. Pull out method.

What's really left to talk about?

To me this is totally a different issue from masturbation.IT was the reason that he did it that made it wrong. To me the only thing that can make masturbation wrong Biblically is if the one doing is is imagining pornographic images while they do it. There seem to be silence on it in the Bible, so one of those grey areas.

So it's okay to engage in unnatural pleasures of the flesh as long as you don't imagine naked people while you're at it? Uh-oh, it's time to break out the....

(http://th100.photobucket.com/albums/m23/adelaide_jackass/th_bullshitmeter.gif)

: Josiah  Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 15:50:29

: LightHammer  Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 14:30:28

: mrhockey903  Thu Sep 08, 2011 - 13:50:44
That's great and all LightHammer but that was written by man, not God. It does not explicitly say "do not masturbate" like it does "do not be a drunkard". Don't try to use man's doctrine as God's. I agree with a lot of what's being said, it is hard to masturbate without having lustful images in your head, a lot of times having those images in your head is what brings masturbation about. But like chosen said, what if you're away from your spouse and you are thinking of them at the time? And it also can't be good if it becomes a dominating drive or you over-indulge.

It's very hard to say either way, especially distinguishing between married people and singles. But I don't think anyone should write it in stone saying that it's ok or it's not.

In that case.

This comes from 38th chapter of the Book of Genesis:

    (7) And Her, the firstborn of Juda, was wicked in the sight of the Lord: and was slain by him.

        (8) Juda therefore said to Onan his son: Go in to thy brother's wife and marry her, that thou mayst raise seed to thy brother.

        (9) He, knowing that the children should not be his, when he went in to his brother's wife, spilled his seed upon the ground,
       
        (6)

           lest children should be born in his brother's name.

        (10) And therefore the Lord slew him, because he did a detestable thing.

Onan was sentenced to death by God for ejaculating on the floor. From Sacred Scripture alone it is absolutely clear that masturbation, artificial contraception and any attempts to compromise God's design for sex are wrong in His sight.

Please quote the following Scriptures from Genesis 38:

1.  Onan masturbated.
2.  He was killed for THAT reason.
3.  Contraception is always wrong.
.

Actually good questions, avoiding the OP to point out that in the case of the scripture cited God's anger had to do with preserving a righteous blood line through which the Messiah would come

The wasted seed was seen by God as potentially ruinous to His Sovereign Plan....

God the Creator of all knows the life potential within all our seed, even if we do not

1.  Onan masturbated.

Genesis 38:7He, knowing that the children should not be his, when he went in to his brother's wife, spilled his seed upon the ground,

Onan had to take his hands and cause his seed to spew out on the ground. If you simply pull out before or during a climax your seed will only ooze out partially. It is highly uncomfortable and if you don't fully spew your seed out you will be in great discomfort.

Onan had to masturbate to cause himself to ejaculate.

2.  He was killed for THAT reason.

Genesis 38: 10And therefore the Lord slew him, because he did a detestable thing.

The cause of Onan's death is something he did. The cause of Onan's death was not something he didn't do. What Onan did was masturbate to spew his seed on the ground. What he didn't do was consummate his responsibility to his brother's widow. The detestable thing done was masturbating to ejaculate apart from the natural execution of sex.

That is why Onan was killed.

3.  Contraception is always wrong.

The OP is about masturbation not contraception.

I can see no specific verses in the Bible about masturbation, and I dont agree that onan has anything to do with the evils of masturbation at all.
The sin involved in it would surely be that many will imagine wrong pictures and thoughts while they are doing it. I think it is one of those grey areas that God doesnt specifically tell us about. If person can masturbate without imagining wrong images then I cant see that it is a sin, but thats my take on it going by what I see the Bible says.

It is interesting to note that while Leviticus describes in no uncertain terms various sexual sins that "M" is not included.  This is especially interesting in the light of where they all had just come from. Egyptian mythology at the time believed the universe was the product [ejaculate] of one of their gods masturbating. There are many heiroglyphics showing men doing the deed, so apparently it had some religious significance in their society. It is also probable that Hebrew slaves carved many of those images.   

Many other Torah prohibitions like cutting your own flesh (scarring) or tattoos were because they were part of idol worship in the various cultures. So for M to be left out almost had to be intentional.

: chosenone  Tue Nov 15, 2011 - 11:08:52
I can see no specific verses in the Bible about masturbation, and I dont agree that onan has anything to do with the evils of masturbation at all.
The sin involved in it would surely be that many will imagine wrong pictures and thoughts while they are doing it. I think it is one of those grey areas that God doesnt specifically tell us about. If person can masturbate without imagining wrong images then I cant see that it is a sin, but thats my take on it going by what I see the Bible says.

I guess that settles that. Even though the Bible says that Onan died for doing a detestable thing and even though the Bible tells us what Onan did was masturbate to spill his seed outside of the natural execution of sex, you don't agree with it because you don't see it like that.

You think its about lustful thoughts but the Bible tells us that Onan wasn't even thinking lustfully. The Bible tells us   that Onan's thoughts were focused on the baby not being his but his brothers. The Bible tells us that this thought was the driving force behind Onan's actions.

The Bible completely proves your lustful thoughts assertion wrong.

Thank goodness you showed up, Lighthammer! It turns out that all these Protestants are Master Debaters! Even the ones who normally can't argue worth a darn are really holding their own in this masturbation debate!  ::bracingmyself::

I'm frankly puzzled how any Christian could think that masturbation is okay. I mean, we condemn homosexuals for their unnatural behavior; how can we say that other unnatural sexual acts are acceptable?  

Interesting topic and responses  ::smile::
I think it's cool that people here are willing to open up and talk about this topic  ::cool::.

To me, and yes I'm a guy, what I've accepted for myself about this and for a lot of other topics that God is "Directly" silent about and doesn't mention, like TV, speeding in traffic,movies, dancing, and the list goes on, that there are gray area's in life, that individually we are to put "OUR own" spin on for ourselves, not to hold anyone else to our own oppinions, because God says it's between Him and the individual. Whe we decide something we do or don't do, then that is sin, no matter what anyone else has decided for themselves.

God is really cool in this area, because it allows us to form a personal relationship with Him in  a deeper way, and allows us to be an "individual" with Him, where there are our own issues. We're different from others, and we're not meant to feel like we should fit in the same box and mold as everyone else. There is no one size fits all Christian in the gray area's.

I love that about God ::clappingoverhead::.

The things that God directly talks about as sin there's no question  about, unless you're trying to justify doing something God forbids. BUT... again one of the things I love about God and the gray area's, is there are freedoms to pray and seek God out, read His word, seek council, and ask Him to speak to our heart, and we  can come here and ask others, get advise, but ultimately it's between God and me and my conscience, about what is sin in the questionable area's of my life, that God doesn't speak directly about in His word, but can speak to us through the Holy Spirit who lives inside of us.

That is not only very personal, but so full of freedom to be myself with God, and the reward is being so full of peace and contentment and "TRUST" of the Father in His love for me and all of us, and it free's me up from "Judging other's, and telling people how they should live in those un-spoken area's, when in reality, if we all admitted it, we don't even have enough time to really do a good enough job just on ourselves - THE OL' LOG IN THE EYE THING  ::doh::

Remember that Gods word isn't about rules and regulation, that's legalism, but about how much He loves us and wants to protect us from our doing the wrong thing and having to suffer the consequences, as well as the obvious, that He wants us to learn to be Holy and learn to want that holiness for ourselves, so that we can not only have the life He wants for us today and the future here on earth, but we can have an "eternal relationship" with Him because of how very much He loves us, and wants our very best clear into "Eternity"  ::clappingoverhead::.

Onan wasn't masturbating, he was using another woman's body. The same can be said for using a condom with a wife or stranger.  ::eek:: Condoms, spilling the seed outside of the woman's body, who would have ever thunk that? Oh yeah, that would be GOD, he doesn't like condoms either.

Masturbation outside (marriage with your spouse) is a lack of self control.

What else is a lack of self control?

Fornication, adultery.

Anger, murder.

We  must do all we can to root out the sin before it grows.  If you can not control the desire when it is masturbation, what else can you not control?


How does the murdered start?  Thoughts...

How does the fornicator start?  Thoughts..


Just as the word of God starts like a seed, so does sin.


If a murderer would of stopped thoughts of murder, then the murder would not of occured.

I don't think there are any rules prohibiting it, we each have to decide for ourselves if the act is emotionally and spiritually healthy or not. 

I will admit that while single,  things kinda escalated for me, so I purchased an 'item'.  The immediate feeling? A-M-A-Z-I-N-G.   The feeling 20 minutes later?   Sad, low and maybe a sense that I had dishonoured God in some way.   I couldn't realistically go from that,  to then spending time with God, in prayer.   I felt like I needed to apologise.  I didn't immediately dispense with said item and returned to it, despite the low feeling.  One night in a church meeting, I felt like God convicted me of it...so I went home and it went in the garbage (the things garbage collectors must find!!!!   ::sick:: )

For me, it distanced me from God.  I would simply never say to someone else, 'it's wrong, it's sinful' because I honestly don't know if it is.  But for me, it wasn't the right way to deal with things.

: happypromises  Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 04:48:30
For me, it distanced me from God.  I would simply never say to someone else, 'it's wrong, it's sinful' because I honestly don't know if it is.  But for me, it wasn't the right way to deal with things.

It takes a lot of discipline, it can take years to be in control of ourselves. I have no desire for sex therefore I don't masturbate. Was I always like this, no. Nor did I feel guilty but one day I was just free from it, I just thought I want to stop this and it did. God's power is amazing. The lack of desire doesn't make it the least bit unpleasurable with my husband either.

My husband doesn't masturbate either, it can be extremely painful for a man because his arousal is an anatomical reaction. We aren't animals that need to find something to hump really fast, even dogs do this to our legs.

My prayers go out to people struggling with this issue.

I will admit that while single,  things kinda escalated for me, so I purchased an 'item'.  The immediate feeling? A-M-A-Z-I-N-G.   The feeling 20 minutes later?   Sad, low and maybe a sense that I had dishonoured God in some way.

An interesting testimonial that I believe was misinterpreted.

On a similar vein, the List owner of the christian site devoted to marital sex (www.themarriagebed.com) had a situation come up in his (at that time) home church in Austin TX. A highschool girl felt the need to masturbate frequently but afterward had deep gut-level pangs of guilt.  Her solution: teach her boyfriend how to manually satisfy her.  No more guilty pangs. When the boy confessed what was going on, Paul B got involved and found out the whole story.

His question to the board was why did she feel so guilty doing that alone but NOT when doing it with someone else, the 2nd situation being clearly the more sinful. After much prayer and consideration, I came to the opinion that since the bible tells us that sex is to take husband and wife and make them 1, and even casual sexual intercourse can do the same thing (in 1 Cor Paul says it happens when going to a prostitute) so there is something about sexual acts that drive us to be unified with someone.  "M" is by definition alone so there is no one there to join in unity with.  So I emailed Paul B with my opinion that it is not real guilt but a deep feeling of being alone in the act that the devil tries to convince us is the Holy Spirit condemning us with guilt. If it had actually  been the Holy Spirit convicting her, that would have INCREASED as she added someone else (the boyfriend) into her sin. But since it was an emptiness from being alone, once another is there, that is gone.

: Bitter Sweet  Fri Dec 16, 2011 - 05:45:20
Onan wasn't masturbating, he was using another woman's body. The same can be said for using a condom with a wife or stranger.  ::eek:: Condoms, spilling the seed outside of the woman's body, who would have ever thunk that? Oh yeah, that would be GOD, he doesn't like condoms either.

Yes Onan was masturbating.

: LightHammer  Sun Jan 01, 2012 - 00:27:47

: Bitter Sweet  Fri Dec 16, 2011 - 05:45:20
Onan wasn't masturbating, he was using another woman's body. The same can be said for using a condom with a wife or stranger.  ::eek:: Condoms, spilling the seed outside of the woman's body, who would have ever thunk that? Oh yeah, that would be GOD, he doesn't like condoms either.

Yes Onan was masturbating.

I think masturbation isn't a good idea, but Bitter Sweet is right: Onan's action was much more similar to a man using a condom during sex than masturbation.

Your reasoning was that God's response to his sin was different than the law's penalty for not providing offspring for one's brother, but if you're really bent on following that logic, you have to ask why God didn't strike dead everyone ELSE who masturbated before or since.

: Cally  Sun Jan 01, 2012 - 22:55:11

: LightHammer  Sun Jan 01, 2012 - 00:27:47

: Bitter Sweet  Fri Dec 16, 2011 - 05:45:20
Onan wasn't masturbating, he was using another woman's body. The same can be said for using a condom with a wife or stranger.  ::eek:: Condoms, spilling the seed outside of the woman's body, who would have ever thunk that? Oh yeah, that would be GOD, he doesn't like condoms either.

Yes Onan was masturbating.

I think masturbation isn't a good idea, but Bitter Sweet is right: Onan's action was much more similar to a man using a condom during sex than masturbation.

Your reasoning was that God's response to his sin was different than the law's penalty for not providing offspring for one's brother, but if you're really bent on following that logic, you have to ask why God didn't strike dead everyone ELSE who masturbated before or since.

He may have we don't know because the OT doesn't record an act of masturbation before or after Onan. However we do see how God continued to offer death to those who violated the sacred act of sex. Sodom and Gomorrah was wiped off the face of the earth for its fornicating habits.

Genesis 38 is enough to make my needs bend in submission before God. Others seem to want to find any excuse to keep to their own habits.

: LightHammer  Sun Jan 01, 2012 - 23:01:02

: Cally  Sun Jan 01, 2012 - 22:55:11

: LightHammer  Sun Jan 01, 2012 - 00:27:47

: Bitter Sweet  Fri Dec 16, 2011 - 05:45:20
Onan wasn't masturbating, he was using another woman's body. The same can be said for using a condom with a wife or stranger.  ::eek:: Condoms, spilling the seed outside of the woman's body, who would have ever thunk that? Oh yeah, that would be GOD, he doesn't like condoms either.

Yes Onan was masturbating.

I think masturbation isn't a good idea, but Bitter Sweet is right: Onan's action was much more similar to a man using a condom during sex than masturbation.

Your reasoning was that God's response to his sin was different than the law's penalty for not providing offspring for one's brother, but if you're really bent on following that logic, you have to ask why God didn't strike dead everyone ELSE who masturbated before or since.

He may have we don't know because the OT doesnot record an act of masturbation before or after Onan. However we do see how God co to he'd to offer death to those who violated the sacred act of sex. Sodom and Gomorrah was wiped off the face of the earth for its fornicating habits.

Genesis 38 is enough to make my needs bend in submission before God. Others seem to want to find any excuse to keep to their own habits.

Well my reasoning is just different than yours, I suppose. Based on the principle of sexual immorality, I see masturbation as a disrespect to oneself which is the temple of the Holy Spirit.

It's strange, I usually hear sexual immorality discussed entirely in terms of the disrespect of women ("she has no self-respect" or "he has no respect for her) or a sin against one's spouse. But there are a lot of things culturally that make it difficult to understand, for men especially, what could be wrong with it. Quite simply, it's they could stand to hear what women are being told. Men AREN'T taught the value of self-respect, and they aren't respected. That's why I used to find it hard to figure out in understanding what was wrong with sexual immorality in general. Culture didn't give me a good reason: only God's teaching to me and scriptures that people hardly ever use anymore.

: Cally  Sun Jan 01, 2012 - 23:13:56

: LightHammer  Sun Jan 01, 2012 - 23:01:02

: Cally  Sun Jan 01, 2012 - 22:55:11

: LightHammer  Sun Jan 01, 2012 - 00:27:47

: Bitter Sweet  Fri Dec 16, 2011 - 05:45:20
Onan wasn't masturbating, he was using another woman's body. The same can be said for using a condom with a wife or stranger.  ::eek:: Condoms, spilling the seed outside of the woman's body, who would have ever thunk that? Oh yeah, that would be GOD, he doesn't like condoms either.

Yes Onan was masturbating.

I think masturbation isn't a good idea, but Bitter Sweet is right: Onan's action was much more similar to a man using a condom during sex than masturbation.

Your reasoning was that God's response to his sin was different than the law's penalty for not providing offspring for one's brother, but if you're really bent on following that logic, you have to ask why God didn't strike dead everyone ELSE who masturbated before or since.

He may have we don't know because the OT doesnot record an act of masturbation before or after Onan. However we do see how God co to he'd to offer death to those who violated the sacred act of sex. Sodom and Gomorrah was wiped off the face of the earth for its fornicating habits.

Genesis 38 is enough to make my needs bend in submission before God. Others seem to want to find any excuse to keep to their own habits.

Well my reasoning is just different than yours, I suppose. Based on the principle of sexual immorality, I see masturbation as a disrespect to oneself which is the temple of the Holy Spirit.

It's strange, I usually hear sexual immorality discussed entirely in terms of the disrespect of women ("she has no self-respect" or "he has no respect for her) or a sin against one's spouse. But there are a lot of things culturally that make it difficult to understand, for men especially, what could be wrong with it. Quite simply, it's they could stand to hear what women are being told. Men AREN'T taught the value of self-respect, and they aren't respected. That's why I used to find it hard to figure out in understanding what was wrong with sexual immorality in general. Culture didn't give me a good reason: only God's teaching to me and scriptures that people hardly ever use anymore.

I can totally relate. In my neighborhood what was regarded as disrespectful and scandalous for women was considered a rite of passage for the young men.

But when I began to read the Holy Scriptures I began to more seriously acknowledge that not only were those disrespectful to us as individuals but to God who claimed out bodies as His Temple.

I believe that this later status of the redeemed is why God dealt so harshly with Onan's masturbation and sexual immorality as a whole.

So if a man has sex with a virgin and pulls out before ejaculation he wasn't having sex with her just masturbating and she is still a virgin?

That is exactly what my 10 year old thought during sex ed, she said she will remain a virgin by using a condom.  ::doh::

Please don't tell me you honestly believe this. Masturbation is something totally different and some of us do prefer to be in control over that and not let it rule our lives but pulling out is not the same as masturbation. A lot of people use that as a birth control method, just like condoms.

I don't think you get it. Onan didn't just pull out. No man can just out of a woman before or during his climax and ejaculate. It doesn't work like that. If you just pull out of a woman right before or during your climax your seed will only ooze out it and it won't come out fully. It is exceedingly uncomfortable and painful. Once you pull out you have to immediately masturbate to ejaculate.

Onan died because he did a detestable thing. Onan did not die because of something he didn't do. What did Onan do Bitter Sweet? Pull out of a woman and then masturbate to ejaculate. What did Onan not do Bittersweet? He did not fulfill his duty to his brother's widow. Why did God strike Onan did Bittersweet? Because he did a detestable thing. What did Onan do Bittersweet? He pulled out and masturbated.


Is everyone trackin now or do I need to use puppets? You can all live in any way you so choose. It's your God-given right. But don't try as act like Sacred Scripture is not clear when it is.

: happypromises  Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 04:48:30
I don't think there are any rules prohibiting it, we each have to decide for ourselves if the act is emotionally and spiritually healthy or not. 

I will admit that while single,  things kinda escalated for me, so I purchased an 'item'.  The immediate feeling? A-M-A-Z-I-N-G.   The feeling 20 minutes later?   Sad, low and maybe a sense that I had dishonoured God in some way.   I couldn't realistically go from that,  to then spending time with God, in prayer.   I felt like I needed to apologise.  I didn't immediately dispense with said item and returned to it, despite the low feeling.  One night in a church meeting, I felt like God convicted me of it...so I went home and it went in the garbage (the things garbage collectors must find!!!!   ::sick:: )

For me, it distanced me from God.  I would simply never say to someone else, 'it's wrong, it's sinful' because I honestly don't know if it is.  But for me, it wasn't the right way to deal with things.

^^^Well said. I have the same conviction....

: LightHammer  Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 15:13:37
I don't think you get it. Onan didn't just pull out. No man can just out of a woman before or during his climax and ejaculate. It doesn't work like that. If you just pull out of a woman right before or during your climax your seed will only ooze out it and it won't come out fully. It is exceedingly uncomfortable and painful. Once you pull out you have to immediately masturbate to ejaculate.

Onan died because he did a detestable thing. Onan did not die because of something he didn't do. What did Onan do Bitter Sweet? Pull out of a woman and then masturbate to ejaculate. What did Onan not do Bittersweet? He did not fulfill his duty to his brother's widow. Why did God strike Onan did Bittersweet? Because he did a detestable thing. What did Onan do Bittersweet? He pulled out and masturbated.


Is everyone trackin now or do I need to use puppets? You can all live in any way you so choose. It's your God-given right. But don't try as act like Sacred Scripture is not clear when it is.

I apologize, I didn't realize that's what men do. But even so I don't think this applies to strictly masturbating. Is this the only scripture you find remotely close to masturbation being an abomination?

I'm not trying to debate you, I think that's great that you endorse that kind of control over the body, I do too, it is one of the greatest freedoms to not be slaves to our own bodies.

: Bitter Sweet  Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 18:08:23

: LightHammer  Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 15:13:37
I don't think you get it. Onan didn't just pull out. No man can just out of a woman before or during his climax and ejaculate. It doesn't work like that. If you just pull out of a woman right before or during your climax your seed will only ooze out it and it won't come out fully. It is exceedingly uncomfortable and painful. Once you pull out you have to immediately masturbate to ejaculate.

Onan died because he did a detestable thing. Onan did not die because of something he didn't do. What did Onan do Bitter Sweet? Pull out of a woman and then masturbate to ejaculate. What did Onan not do Bittersweet? He did not fulfill his duty to his brother's widow. Why did God strike Onan did Bittersweet? Because he did a detestable thing. What did Onan do Bittersweet? He pulled out and masturbated.


Is everyone trackin now or do I need to use puppets? You can all live in any way you so choose. It's your God-given right. But don't try as act like Sacred Scripture is not clear when it is.

I apologize, I didn't realize that's what men do. But even so I don't think this applies to strictly masturbating. Is this the only scripture you find remotely close to masturbation being an abomination?

I'm not trying to debate you, I think that's great that you endorse that kind of control over the body, I do too, it is one of the greatest freedoms to not be slaves to our own bodies.

Its the only selection that others would deem concrete. Whether or not a person "feels" whatever way about masturbation, Genesis 38 is pretty much absolute when you understand how the male body works; a slam dunk if you will. The are other places where God has repaid the desecration or perversion of His sacred gift of sex with death. Prostitution warrants stoning. Homosexuals in Sodom and Gomorrah brought about the destruction of their city. There are several places where God makes it abundantly clear. Sex is only for marriage and any prevention of the natural execution of this sacred gift is a cardinal sin.

A lot of people including myself before I let go and and let God should consider ourselves lucky. While some sit back and resist the obvious truth of Onan's testimony if this had been before the coming of Christ you would've known how serious desecrating God's sacred gift is to Him when He knocked your lights out and you joined Abel crying out from the grave.

There is some bizzare twisted law in the old testament where the brother if unmarried must take his brothers wife and have her kid in order to continue his name in Israel, and if he refuses the woman brings the man in front of judges and he is shamed, something to that effect.

Thankfully people do not have to partake of this evil nonsense in the new covenant.

: FireSword  Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 20:10:40
There is some bizzare twisted law in the old testament where the brother if unmarried must take his brothers wife and have her kid in order to continue his name in Israel, and if he refuses the woman brings the man in front of judges and he is shamed, something to that effect.

Thankfully people do not have to partake of this evil nonsense in the new covenant.

Careful what you call evil. That law was established and enforced by God. I wouldn't go calling that evil.

: LightHammer  Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 20:15:48

: FireSword  Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 20:10:40
There is some bizzare law in the old testament where the brother if unmarried must take his brothers wife and have her kid in order to continue his name in Israel, and if he refuses the woman brings the man in front of judges and he is shamed, something to that effect.

Thankfully people do not have to partake of this evil nonsense in the new covenant.

Careful what you call evil. That law was established and enforced by God. I wouldn't go calling that evil.

Your advice is well, just voicing my opinion and annoyance of some of Gods laws. But I think evil is an appropriate term to use,  since God is the author of evil, but I'd rather be on his good side.

: FireSword  Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 20:22:15

: LightHammer  Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 20:15:48

: FireSword  Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 20:10:40
There is some bizzare law in the old testament where the brother if unmarried must take his brothers wife and have her kid in order to continue his name in Israel, and if he refuses the woman brings the man in front of judges and he is shamed, something to that effect.

Thankfully people do not have to partake of this evil nonsense in the new covenant.

Careful what you call evil. That law was established and enforced by God. I wouldn't go calling that evil.

Your advice is well, just voicing my opinion and annoyance of some of Gods laws. But I think evil is an appropriate term to use,  since God is the author of evil, but I'd rather be on his good side.

??? What the deuce?

God is not the author of evil. God allows evil but He is not the author of it. An author makes something, creates it forms it. God does not ever form evil. Those whom He granted freewill formed it and in His grace and mercy He allowed it rather than strike them down in His wrath.

Completely different.

: FireSword  Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 20:10:40
There is some bizzare twisted law in the old testament where the brother if unmarried must take his brothers wife and have her kid in order to continue his name in Israel, and if he refuses the woman brings the man in front of judges and he is shamed, something to that effect.

Thankfully people do not have to partake of this evil nonsense in the new covenant.

They still practice that in Islam, a woman married into a family is fair game to the brother in laws and father in law.

: LightHammer  Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 19:17:41

: Bitter Sweet  Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 18:08:23

: LightHammer  Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 15:13:37
I don't think you get it. Onan didn't just pull out. No man can just out of a woman before or during his climax and ejaculate. It doesn't work like that. If you just pull out of a woman right before or during your climax your seed will only ooze out it and it won't come out fully. It is exceedingly uncomfortable and painful. Once you pull out you have to immediately masturbate to ejaculate.

Onan died because he did a detestable thing. Onan did not die because of something he didn't do. What did Onan do Bitter Sweet? Pull out of a woman and then masturbate to ejaculate. What did Onan not do Bittersweet? He did not fulfill his duty to his brother's widow. Why did God strike Onan did Bittersweet? Because he did a detestable thing. What did Onan do Bittersweet? He pulled out and masturbated.


Is everyone trackin now or do I need to use puppets? You can all live in any way you so choose. It's your God-given right. But don't try as act like Sacred Scripture is not clear when it is.

I apologize, I didn't realize that's what men do. But even so I don't think this applies to strictly masturbating. Is this the only scripture you find remotely close to masturbation being an abomination?

I'm not trying to debate you, I think that's great that you endorse that kind of control over the body, I do too, it is one of the greatest freedoms to not be slaves to our own bodies.

Its the only selection that others would deem concrete. Whether or not a person "feels" whatever way about masturbation, Genesis 38 is pretty much absolute when you understand how the male body works; a slam dunk if you will. The are other places where God has repaid the desecration or perversion of His sacred gift of sex with death. Prostitution warrants stoning. Homosexuals in Sodom and Gomorrah brought about the destruction of their city. There are several places where God makes it abundantly clear. Sex is only for marriage and any prevention of the natural execution of this sacred gift is a cardinal sin.

A lot of people including myself before I let go and and let God should consider ourselves lucky. While some sit back and resist the obvious truth of Onan's testimony if this had been before the coming of Christ you would've known how serious desecrating God's sacred gift is to Him when He knocked your lights out and you joined Abel crying out from the grave.

What do you think about condoms? A man doesn't masturbate with those and the seed is dumped outside of the woman's body. Since no masturbation is involved, is God ok with this?

And doesn't this only apply if you do it with your brother's wife?

: FireSword  Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 20:10:40
There is some bizzare twisted law in the old testament where the brother if unmarried must take his brothers wife and have her kid in order to continue his name in Israel, and if he refuses the woman brings the man in front of judges and he is shamed, something to that effect.

Thankfully people do not have to partake of this evil nonsense in the new covenant.

? ? ? ?

I am not sure why you think this is "twisted" or "nonsense" or why you would call ANY command of God "evil."  God is not evil nor are any of his commands or teachings. Could you explain why you believe so?

This is definately off-topic. Perhaps you should answer in a new thread in the Theology folder?

: LightHammer  Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 15:13:37Onan didn't just pull out. No man can just out of a woman before or during his climax and ejaculate. It doesn't work like that. If you just pull out of a woman right before or during your climax your seed will only ooze out it and it won't come out fully. It is exceedingly uncomfortable and painful. Once you pull out you have to immediately masturbate to ejaculate.

Perhaps that is TMI. I will let the mods decide on that. But I know that while many (perhaps most) men are "left hanging" so to speak in what you describe, it is certainly not the case of all men. Some are quite satisfied without any additional actions.

: IamStefanie  Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 15:22:20

: happypromises  Sun Dec 18, 2011 - 04:48:30
I don't think there are any rules prohibiting it, we each have to decide for ourselves if the act is emotionally and spiritually healthy or not. 

I will admit that while single,  things kinda escalated for me, so I purchased an 'item'.  The immediate feeling? A-M-A-Z-I-N-G.   The feeling 20 minutes later?   Sad, low and maybe a sense that I had dishonoured God in some way.   I couldn't realistically go from that,  to then spending time with God, in prayer.   I felt like I needed to apologise.  I didn't immediately dispense with said item and returned to it, despite the low feeling.  One night in a church meeting, I felt like God convicted me of it...so I went home and it went in the garbage (the things garbage collectors must find!!!!   ::sick:: )

For me, it distanced me from God.  I would simply never say to someone else, 'it's wrong, it's sinful' because I honestly don't know if it is.  But for me, it wasn't the right way to deal with things.

^^^Well said. I have the same conviction....

Please see my post #60 above.  IMO you may have misintrepreted those "20 minutes later" feelings.

Dave, how did I misinterpret what someone else was saying?

Not what someone was saying but misintrepreting your own feelings (and the devil loves to be behind that).

What you experienced as guilt/condemnation may have actually just been lonliness. They both hit the pit of the gut similarly.  Re-read the post I directed you to.

: Bitter Sweet  Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 04:52:00

: LightHammer  Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 19:17:41

: Bitter Sweet  Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 18:08:23

: LightHammer  Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 15:13:37
I don't think you get it. Onan didn't just pull out. No man can just out of a woman before or during his climax and ejaculate. It doesn't work like that. If you just pull out of a woman right before or during your climax your seed will only ooze out it and it won't come out fully. It is exceedingly uncomfortable and painful. Once you pull out you have to immediately masturbate to ejaculate.

Onan died because he did a detestable thing. Onan did not die because of something he didn't do. What did Onan do Bitter Sweet? Pull out of a woman and then masturbate to ejaculate. What did Onan not do Bittersweet? He did not fulfill his duty to his brother's widow. Why did God strike Onan did Bittersweet? Because he did a detestable thing. What did Onan do Bittersweet? He pulled out and masturbated.


Is everyone trackin now or do I need to use puppets? You can all live in any way you so choose. It's your God-given right. But don't try as act like Sacred Scripture is not clear when it is.

I apologize, I didn't realize that's what men do. But even so I don't think this applies to strictly masturbating. Is this the only scripture you find remotely close to masturbation being an abomination?

I'm not trying to debate you, I think that's great that you endorse that kind of control over the body, I do too, it is one of the greatest freedoms to not be slaves to our own bodies.

Its the only selection that others would deem concrete. Whether or not a person "feels" whatever way about masturbation, Genesis 38 is pretty much absolute when you understand how the male body works; a slam dunk if you will. The are other places where God has repaid the desecration or perversion of His sacred gift of sex with death. Prostitution warrants stoning. Homosexuals in Sodom and Gomorrah brought about the destruction of their city. There are several places where God makes it abundantly clear. Sex is only for marriage and any prevention of the natural execution of this sacred gift is a cardinal sin.

A lot of people including myself before I let go and and let God should consider ourselves lucky. While some sit back and resist the obvious truth of Onan's testimony if this had been before the coming of Christ you would've known how serious desecrating God's sacred gift is to Him when He knocked your lights out and you joined Abel crying out from the grave.

What do you think about condoms? A man doesn't masturbate with those and the seed is dumped outside of the woman's body. Since no masturbation is involved, is God ok with this?

And doesn't this only apply if you do it with your brother's wife?

The use of condoms is also abominable. Anything interruption to the natural execution of the sacred gift of sex is a sin. Only those who are forced into prostitution are exempt because if they do not use condoms they are presented with a very real threat of contracting serious diseases. Seeing how they are being forced into prostitution the moral law is not legalistic.

The brother's widow tradition is of the Old Covenant. It does not apply to us of the New Covenant. Leave a will.

: LightHammer  Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 14:24:59

The use of condoms is also abominable. Anything interruption to the natural execution of the sacred gift of sex is a sin. Only those who are forced into prostitution are exempt because if they do not use condoms they are presented with a very real threat of contracting serious diseases. Seeing how they are being forced into prostitution the moral law is not legalistic.

There are willful prostitutes in Africa that are immune to AIDS and may hold the cure for it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/02/03/us/a-new-aids-mystery-prostitutes-who-have-remained-immune.html

The brother's widow tradition is of the Old Covenant. It does not apply to us of the New Covenant. Leave a will.

So why worry about condoms and masturbating?

: DaveW  Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 05:39:13

: LightHammer  Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 15:13:37Onan didn't just pull out. No man can just out of a woman before or during his climax and ejaculate. It doesn't work like that. If you just pull out of a woman right before or during your climax your seed will only ooze out it and it won't come out fully. It is exceedingly uncomfortable and painful. Once you pull out you have to immediately masturbate to ejaculate.

Perhaps that is TMI. I will let the mods decide on that. But I know that while many (perhaps most) men are "left hanging" so to speak in what you describe, it is certainly not the case of all men. Some are quite satisfied without any additional actions.

It was absolutely necessary. It goes straight to the heart of the issue. Women who have no clue about the male body would make Bitter Sweet's mistake and not see how this is clearly masturbation. Men who have never been in Onan's would do the say.

I agree it may make some uncomfortable to address but it needed to be stressed. Thank Josiah and gospel. I was prepared to let it go but they really tried to act like Genesis 38 wasn't clearly describing masturbation and that Onan was killed for something he didn't do when the Bible says he died for something he did.

It frustrates me when people dance around the Bible and twist its clear words because they won't to do their own thing.

: Bitter Sweet  Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 14:29:25

: LightHammer  Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 14:24:59

The use of condoms is also abominable. Anything interruption to the natural execution of the sacred gift of sex is a sin. Only those who are forced into prostitution are exempt because if they do not use condoms they are presented with a very real threat of contracting serious diseases. Seeing how they are being forced into prostitution the moral law is not legalistic.

There are willful prostitutes in Africa that are immune to AIDS and may hold the cure for it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/02/03/us/a-new-aids-mystery-prostitutes-who-have-remained-immune.html

The brother's widow tradition is of the Old Covenant. It does not apply to us of the New Covenant. Leave a will.

So why worry about condoms and masturbating?

1. Thanks for the info. Willful prostitution does not warrant the same exemption as forced prostitution.

2. Because its not about doing the act with your brother's widow. It's about doing the act period. Condoms, masturbation and other forms of contraception are desecration of God's sacred gift of sex. It's kind of that simple.

: LightHammer  Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 20:39:20

: FireSword  Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 20:22:15

: LightHammer  Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 20:15:48

: FireSword  Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 20:10:40
There is some bizzare law in the old testament where the brother if unmarried must take his brothers wife and have her kid in order to continue his name in Israel, and if he refuses the woman brings the man in front of judges and he is shamed, something to that effect.

Thankfully people do not have to partake of this evil nonsense in the new covenant.

Careful what you call evil. That law was established and enforced by God. I wouldn't go calling that evil.

Your advice is well, just voicing my opinion and annoyance of some of Gods laws. But I think evil is an appropriate term to use,  since God is the author of evil, but I'd rather be on his good side.

??? What the deuce?

God is not the author of evil. God allows evil but He is not the author of it. An author makes something, creates it forms it. God does not ever form evil. Those whom He granted freewill formed it and in His grace and mercy He allowed it rather than strike them down in His wrath.

Completely different.

Your thinking of sin. Sin is different to evil. God does not bring us sin, but he brings us evil, to test us as in Jobs case or to punish us for our sins or nations for their sins.

sin is twisted, so that is why I delete reference to Gods law being twisted, but I still see it as evil. Because the moral aspect of love between the man and the wife is given second place next to the continuation of the name of his brother. So we see that pride of a family name is more important than love in this Jewish law.

But Christ has abolished these laws through death and resurection, so that we are under grace.

: LightHammer  Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 14:35:54

1. Thanks for the info. Willful prostitution does not warrant the same exemption as forced prostitution.

Unless they come into repentance, may God bless them with that. Unfortunately the conditions they live under in Africa will make it hard for a woman to repent, it may be her only means.

2. Because its not about doing the act with your brother's widow. It's about doing the act period. Condoms, masturbation and other forms of contraception are desecration of God's sacred gift of sex. It's kind of that simple.

How many children do you intend on having?  ::smile::

: DaveW  Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 05:34:27

: FireSword  Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 20:10:40
There is some bizzare twisted law in the old testament where the brother if unmarried must take his brothers wife and have her kid in order to continue his name in Israel, and if he refuses the woman brings the man in front of judges and he is shamed, something to that effect.

Thankfully people do not have to partake of this evil nonsense in the new covenant.

? ? ? ?

I am not sure why you think this is "twisted" or "nonsense" or why you would call ANY command of God "evil."  God is not evil nor are any of his commands or teachings. Could you explain why you believe so?

This is definately off-topic. Perhaps you should answer in a new thread in the Theology folder?

I thought we were discussing the Onan story, who pulled out and refused to carry through as according to the Jewish law. Which means that it is not about masturbating and wasting seed, but about not performing his duty to his brothers wife.

: FireSword  Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 14:45:12

: LightHammer  Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 20:39:20

: FireSword  Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 20:22:15

: LightHammer  Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 20:15:48

: FireSword  Mon Jan 02, 2012 - 20:10:40
There is some bizzare law in the old testament where the brother if unmarried must take his brothers wife and have her kid in order to continue his name in Israel, and if he refuses the woman brings the man in front of judges and he is shamed, something to that effect.

Thankfully people do not have to partake of this evil nonsense in the new covenant.

Careful what you call evil. That law was established and enforced by God. I wouldn't go calling that evil.

Your advice is well, just voicing my opinion and annoyance of some of Gods laws. But I think evil is an appropriate term to use,  since God is the author of evil, but I'd rather be on his good side.

??? What the deuce?

God is not the author of evil. God allows evil but He is not the author of it. An author makes something, creates it forms it. God does not ever form evil. Those whom He granted freewill formed it and in His grace and mercy He allowed it rather than strike them down in His wrath.

Completely different.

Your thinking of sin. Sin is different to evil. God does not bring us sin, but he brings us evil, to test us as in Jobs case or to punish us for our sins or nations for their sins.

sin is twisted, so that is why I delete reference to Gods law being twisted, but I still see it as evil. Because the moral aspect of love between the man and the wife is given second place next to the continuation of the name of his brother. So we see that pride of a family name is more important than love in this Jewish law.

But Christ has abolished these laws through death and resurection, so that we are under grace.

Apart from the fact that you do not properly understand the point of law calling God's law evil should be enough for anyone to fall back on.

: Bitter Sweet  Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 14:49:33

: LightHammer  Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 14:35:54

1. Thanks for the info. Willful prostitution does not warrant the same exemption as forced prostitution.

Unless they come into repentance, may God bless them with that. Unfortunately the conditions they live under in Africa will make it hard for a woman to repent, it may be her only means.

2. Because its not about doing the act with your brother's widow. It's about doing the act period. Condoms, masturbation and other forms of contraception are desecration of God's sacred gift of sex. It's kind of that simple.

How many children do you intend on having?  ::smile::

1. You watch too much tv. Africa is so not that bad.

2. I want to have at least two a boy and a girl but God's Will will dictate on the number just as His love will provide for whatever size family He leaves in my care.

So why did Jesus abolish these laws?

Having find fault in them he abolished them.

Hebrews 8:8
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

: FireSword  Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 15:10:58
So why did Jesus abolish these laws?

Having find fault in them he abolished them.

Good thing too otherwise a lot of us would be messed up.

For the record LightHammer, I barely watch any TV, it must have been left over from the National Geographic shows I saw in the 80's or the movie "the god's must be crazy".

: FireSword  Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 15:10:58
So why did Jesus abolish these laws?

Having find fault in them he abolished them.

Hebrews 8:8
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Christ specifically said that He did not abolish the law but He fulfilled it. The Old Law wasn't evil Firesword. It was incomplete and insufficient. Hebrews should clear this up on its own. Go back in and look at it.

The granted partial communion with God. The New Covenant grants total communion. No mediator but God the Son. No priesthood between me and Big Guy. Yes it's like a billion times better but that doesn't make the Old Law evil.

: LightHammer  Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 15:33:25

: FireSword  Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 15:10:58
So why did Jesus abolish these laws?

Having find fault in them he abolished them.

Hebrews 8:8
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Christ specifically said that He did not abolish the law but He fulfilled it. The Old Law wasn't evil Firesword. It was incomplete and insufficient. Hebrews should clear this up on its own. Go back in and look at it.

The granted partial communion with God. The New Covenant grants total communion. No mediator but God the Son. No priesthood between me and Big Guy. Yes it's like a billion times better but that doesn't make the Old Law evil.

Yes it says the law is spiritual and good. Don't get hung up on the word evil, it may be strange to see God as evil, but this is what scriptures say, that God has a dark side to him and chastizes his sons.
The laws led people to bondage and could not be set free by obeying these laws, so in a sense that is evil, because God gave them laws that would never save them, but designed to break them as a schoolmaster to bring them to Christ.  Under the new covenant a brother is no longer required to help his deceased brother bring birth to his widow and I think most today in Christ would heartedly reject such a requirement as being evil and morally wrong and no widow would expect such behaviour.

::juggle::

: FireSword  Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 16:01:27

: LightHammer  Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 15:33:25

: FireSword  Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 15:10:58
So why did Jesus abolish these laws?

Having find fault in them he abolished them.

Hebrews 8:8
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Christ specifically said that He did not abolish the law but He fulfilled it. The Old Law wasn't evil Firesword. It was incomplete and insufficient. Hebrews should clear this up on its own. Go back in and look at it.

The granted partial communion with God. The New Covenant grants total communion. No mediator but God the Son. No priesthood between me and Big Guy. Yes it's like a billion times better but that doesn't make the Old Law evil.

Yes it says the law is spiritual and good. Don't get hung up on the word evil, it may be strange to see God as evil, but this is what scriptures say, that God has a dark side to him and chastizes his sons.
The laws led people to bondage and could not be set free by obeying these laws, so in a sense that is evil, because God gave them laws that would never save them, but designed to break them as a schoolmaster to bring them to Christ.  Under the new covenant a brother is no longer required to help his deceased brother bring birth to his widow and I think most today in Christ would heartedly reject such a requirement as being evil and morally wrong and no widow would expect such behaviour.

::juggle::

What the deuce?! You sound like a gnostic.

Romans 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 8:4
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


You are seriously flirting with blasphemy I would really check myself and the Sacred Scriptures if I were you.

: FireSword  Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 15:10:58
So why did Jesus abolish these laws?

Having find fault in them he abolished them.

Hebrews 8:8
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Read the context.  The "them" was not refering to either the covenant or the laws but to those people who were constantly violating the laws.

: FireSword  Tue Jan 03, 2012 - 16:01:27
Yes it says the law is spiritual and good. Don't get hung up on the word evil, it may be strange to see God as evil, but this is what scriptures say, that God has a dark side to him and chastizes his sons.

There is NOTHING in GOD that is dark or evil.  He is ENTIRELY GOOD.  Indeed His person is the definition of Good.

What is so dark or evil in discipline?

: fassopony  Fri May 20, 2011 - 16:49:59
Since I'm usually the outspoken one anyway!  Marrieds, feel free to weigh in with Biblical or Christian based opinion.  Thoughtful discussion please :)

So, is masturbation a sin?  Did God say it is?

What about lust or desire?  What is a healthy attraction to the opposite sex that we as Christian singles should have?  What is not?

As I was going thru my past posts, I realized I posted in this thread somewhat off-topicly and never addressed the OP.  Shame on me! ::doh::

Is masturbation a sin?

I do not believe it is, within certain bounds.  If you are filling your mind with lustful thoughts or pretending you are having sex with someone you are not married to, then it probably is sinful. If you are married and using it to avoid joining with your spouse it DEFINATELY is.
But if you are using it to relieve certain needs, or relaxation of stress, I see no problem with it. And if you use it to keep from falling into having sex with someone you shouldn't, then it becomes the "way of escape" Paul wrote about. (1 Corinthians 10:13)

Did God say it is?

There is no direct mention of it in scripture, either testament. There may be a few indirect allusions to it; the clearest being Song of Solomon chapter 5 where Shulamite's fingers are dripping with "myrrh," shown in the previous chapter to be symbolic of her arousal.

What about lust or desire?  

Lust is an improper, very strong desire. Normal desire for sex (even VERY STRONG desire) is neither lust nor sinful.  It is the way God designed us. If you take that strong desire and focus it on someone you are not married to, then it becomes sinful lust.

What is a healthy attraction to the opposite sex that we as Christian singles should have?

Attraction itself is healthy.  Avoiding it is not. Having it under proper constraints makes the difference between good and sinful. Focusing too much on the physical can make attraction unhealthy.

Look at GODLY CHARACTER first and foremost.  That should be the first part of attraction.

: DaveW  Tue May 01, 2012 - 11:35:14

: fassopony  Fri May 20, 2011 - 16:49:59
Since I'm usually the outspoken one anyway!  Marrieds, feel free to weigh in with Biblical or Christian based opinion.  Thoughtful discussion please :)

So, is masturbation a sin?  Did God say it is?

What about lust or desire?  What is a healthy attraction to the opposite sex that we as Christian singles should have?  What is not?

As I was going thru my past posts, I realized I posted in this thread somewhat off-topicly and never addressed the OP.  Shame on me! ::doh::

Is masturbation a sin?

I do not believe it is, within certain bounds.  If you are filling your mind with lustful thoughts or pretending you are having sex with someone you are not married to, then it probably is sinful. If you are married and using it to avoid joining with your spouse it DEFINATELY is.
But if you are using it to relieve certain needs, or relaxation of stress, I see no problem with it. And if you use it to keep from falling into having sex with someone you shouldn't, then it becomes the "way of escape" Paul wrote about. (1 Corinthians 10:13)

Did God say it is?

There is no direct mention of it in scripture, either testament. There may be a few indirect allusions to it; the clearest being Song of Solomon chapter 5 where Shulamite's fingers are dripping with "myrrh," shown in the previous chapter to be symbolic of her arousal.

What about lust or desire?  

Lust is an improper, very strong desire. Normal desire for sex (even VERY STRONG desire) is neither lust nor sinful.  It is the way God designed us. If you take that strong desire and focus it on someone you are not married to, then it becomes sinful lust.

What is a healthy attraction to the opposite sex that we as Christian singles should have?

Attraction itself is healthy.  Avoiding it is not. Having it under proper constraints makes the difference between good and sinful. Focusing too much on the physical can make attraction unhealthy.

Look at GODLY CHARACTER first and foremost.  That should be the first part of attraction.

So what was Onan doing in Genesis then?

So what was Onan doing in Genesis then?

It is called coitus intruptus, the withdrawl method of birth control.  Have intercourse (not M) and then pull out at the critical moment.

While it was not yet codified in Law; to not raise up an heir to a deceased brother was understood as a violation of the family covenant. He refused build up his brother's legacy.  THAT is what he got killed for.

As it is written: "Onan knew that the offspring would not be his. So whenever he went in to his brother's wife he would waste the semen on the ground, so as not to give offspring to his brother." Gen 38.9

: DaveW  Thu May 03, 2012 - 05:57:33

So what was Onan doing in Genesis then?

It is called coitus intruptus, the withdrawl method of birth control.  Have intercourse (not M) and then pull out at the critical moment.

While it was not yet codified in Law; to not raise up an heir to a deceased brother was understood as a violation of the family covenant. He refused build up his brother's legacy.  THAT is what he got killed for.

As it is written: "Onan knew that the offspring would not be his. So whenever he went in to his brother's wife he would waste the semen on the ground, so as not to give offspring to his brother." Gen 38.9

Coitus Intruptus can not work without masturbation. Why is that so hard to understand. You can't just "pull out at the critical moment" and then spill your seed. It is not possible. The male reproductive organ does not work like that.

Furthermore Onan wasn't not killed for a negative action he was killed for a positive action. If he had been punished for refusing to do his duty to his brother he would have been publically humiliated not killed as is tradition set down by God's action.

Coitus Intruptus can not work without masturbation. Why is that so hard to understand. You can't just "pull out at the critical moment" and then spill your seed. It is not possible. The male reproductive organ does not work like that.

Actually it does.  At the risk of being to graphic and negative, the infamous Dr Mengle (of the 3rd reich) did experiments on his Jewish prisoners and proved that once the male reached the point of "Ejaculatory inevitability" that NOTHING stopped him from ejaculating, not even death. (shot in the head, decapitated, etc) So your statement does not conform to medical understanding.

: DaveW  Mon May 07, 2012 - 06:23:27

Coitus Intruptus can not work without masturbation. Why is that so hard to understand. You can't just "pull out at the critical moment" and then spill your seed. It is not possible. The male reproductive organ does not work like that.

Actually it does.  At the risk of being to graphic and negative, the infamous Dr Mengle (of the 3rd reich) did experiments on his Jewish prisoners and proved that once the male reached the point of "Ejaculatory inevitability" that NOTHING stopped him from ejaculating, not even death. (shot in the head, decapitated, etc) So your statement does not conform to medical understanding.

That proves very interesting, although it seems like an extreme case. Dead bodies tend to do a lot of things such as give off flatulence so I can see that. I wonder if you can provide a link or reference to the source? I'm curious as to see whether or not medical science attests to this in normal life.

Do a google search on "Ejaculatory inevitability."  That should tell you all you need to know.  I cannot access any of those sites from here as this is a gov't computer.

LH, you might want to look at these:

http://health.howstuffworks.com/sexual-health/male-reproductive-system/ejaculation-dictionary.htm

http://www.mens-information.com/page3.html  paragraph 10

Masturbation is simply sex with self. Now I have called SEX: Semen EXchange between a man and a woman. This is the one approved by the Bible between married couples.

Masturbation is a game of the mind. While you are at it, you are fantasizing about a man or woman who is not your wife or hubby if you are single. The mind is a platform for transformation for christians. Paul advised that we should continually renew it. We renew it with God's word and positive thoughts.

The devil understood the key role our minds play in our christian development so he doesn't want us to use it appropriately - this is the reason why he brings negative information that are contrary to God's word into our minds.

Now the practice of masturbation with our mind thinking of illicit sex with someone we are not married to is one way we help the devil to corrupt our minds.

Now I am aware that singles will occasionally burn with passion (yes I know because I have been there before), paul advised they get married. If you are still young to get married, you can help yourself to stop masturbation by working on your mind storing the right information into it.

There are so many things you can do.

Christianity is real work and fighting off any habit that gets us disturbed after we do it is real work.

Many who have argued for this habit have not been bold to declare publicly that they do it.

All said and done, don't ever condemn yourself because you got involved in it (don't justify it either) but rather go before the Holy Spirit to help you against it.

God bless you.

: sesantek  Mon May 21, 2012 - 21:28:36
Masturbation is simply sex with self.

In one sense that could be true but it is not the only definition.  Psycologists and those medical people who study sexual response use the definition: Any form of self-stimulation for the purpose of maintaining or increasing sexual arousal.

Masturbation is a game of the mind. While you are at it, you are fantasizing about a man or woman who is not your wife or hubby if you are single.

Does that include children who discover it but are too young to know anything about sex?  They can have full blown adult orgasms from it.

Now the practice of masturbation with our mind thinking of illicit sex with someone we are not married to is one way we help the devil to corrupt our minds.

I agree.  Porn is an epidemic of this.

Now I am aware that singles will occasionally burn with passion (yes I know because I have been there before), paul advised they get married. If you are still young to get married, you can help yourself to stop masturbation by working on your mind storing the right information into it.

The desire for release is hormonally based and what you are saying ignores that fact.

Many who have argued for this habit have not been bold to declare publicly that they do it.

In the OP Fassopony said she was "outspoken" and I guess her proof was starting this discussion. I too can be outspoken and will take you up on your challenge, sesantek.  During highschool and college, I did that deed on average about once a day. I credit it for keeping me from going totally insane with desire.  And I learned about it years before I had any inkling it had something to do with sex. (I thought it was related to unrinating)

All said and done, don't ever condemn yourself because you got involved in it (don't justify it either) but rather go before the Holy Spirit to help you against it

There is biblically only ONE thing that goes against it: marriage.  Nothing else is listed in scripture for dealing with sexual desires.  Paul NEVER said that if you are burning to get more self control, or pray more or get delivered from demons or crucify the flesh. (not that any of those things are bad) Paul said get married. PERIOD.

Since that is not possible in this day for a 14 year old, and M is NEVER ONCE condemned in the bible (interesting since it was a common religious practice of Egypt) I say let him do it but teach him to NOT fill his mind with porn type junk and lust.

This has been a topic that I have researched in the bible, searched other sources and definitely prayed about.  From what I have found, I believe masturbation could be seen as a sin depending on how you look at it.  Let me explain. 

The scriptures say that all things are acceptable but not all things are beneficial, all things are acceptable but I WILL NOT BE MASTERED by anything!  This includes a lot of things from food to alcohol to masturbation... On the other hand, the bible also teaches in Galatians that we were called to be free but not to use our freedom to indulge the flesh, we are to walk in the Spirit so that we will not gratify the desires of the flesh, one of the desires of the flesh is sexual immorality (or sexual sin) but when you research what that truly means from the worldly definition- it is sexual intercourse or intimacy with someone not your spouse. 

When you desire sexual gratification are you being immoral when you are feeling something totally natural that God gave us the desires to feel? I don't believe having the desire is immoral but the gratification of the desire is what makes it immoral b/c morality is conforming to a standard of right behavior (God's) and since immorality is the opposite of morality then it would be considered wrong behavior b/c its against God's standards.  According to Paul's teaching to the Corinthians - sexual sin is a danger and immoral.  The gray part is when we try to justify if masturbation is actually sex b/c if it isn't labeled as sex it can't be labeled as a sexual sin. Although it is not intercourse, it is manual erotic stimulation of genitalia that results in orgasm...which is sexual.

We are called to control those urges/desires by walking by the Spirit so that we will not gratify the desires of the flesh b/c although God gave us the desires he also gave us rules/advice as to when we are to gratify them.  Paul told the single women & widows if they could not control their bodies it is better to marry than to burn with sexual desire.

What he meant by control their bodies, we don't really know - was it intercourse or masturbation or both? I know the answer I have gotten from my own questions to God is that masturbation doesn't exhibit the Fruit of the Spirit (self control), which coincides with Paul's teaching that if you can't control your bodies its best to marry and also with 1 Jn 5:17 which says all wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.

No, I'm not saying - well, if it doesn't lead to death then go ahead and do it!! - wrongdoing is wrongdoing and we will all have to give an account before Christ for all the wrongdoing (sin) we do in our lives. Paul questioned if we died to sin how can we keep living in it? we are not to allow any sin (sexual or non-sexual) to reign (take refuge/rule) in our bodies but evidently its not as easy as it sounds - as Paul also teaches we are wretches (despicable/vile ppl) and when we keep sinning it is no longer us that are doing it but it is sin living in us that is doing it - it is reigning in our bodies - our selfish desires will not allow us to do anything good even when we want to do right, the wrong is what we keep on doing.  With our minds we serve the law of God but our selfish desires make us serve the law of sin. No, we are not to purposely sin but when we do (and we will) -  Thank God!!! Jesus rescues us since there is no condemnation in Christ!   We have to die daily and repent from all sins.

Now, does that mean if you masturbate you will go to hell?  No, I don't believe it does because NOTHING can snatch away your salvation that was given to you by grace through faith - there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus.

However, we do have an obligation to obey the word of God out of gratitude & respect as his children and as Christ's Ambassadors -  and not to mention to receive our rewards in heaven.

I have argued who totally possesses all of the fruits of the spirit at all times?

But God's word says: People who are ruled by their desires think only of themselves. Everyone ruled by the Holy Spirit thinks of spiritual things. If we are ruled by our desires we will die but if ruled by the Spirit we have life & peace. If we follow our desires we can not please God!!  People who don't have the Spirit of Christ in them don't belong to him.  With the help of God's Spirit we can say "no" to our desires b/c only those who are led by the Spirit are his children. Not that we are afraid of him, but that he is our Father - in other words we obey him out of love, respect and a little healthy fear (the same way we obey our earthly parents).

This is not always easy to do and we may not possess all the fruits of the spirit at all times but we have to continue to ask God to give us the strength to do as Paul teaches and make every part of our body serve God so that we will belong completely to him.


WheW!!  Thanks for letting me get that out!!   ::blushing::

: DaveW  Tue May 08, 2012 - 06:08:34
Do a google search on "Ejaculatory inevitability."  That should tell you all you need to know.  I cannot access any of those sites from here as this is a gov't computer.

These all seem to be like exceptions acccording to the sources I have looked up. For all your attempts it seems that your position weighs on the inprobability that Onab didn't masturbate to ejaculate which is unlikely.

: sesantek  Mon May 21, 2012 - 21:28:36
Masturbation is simply sex with self. Now I have called SEX: Semen EXchange between a man and a woman. This is the one approved by the Bible between married couples.

Masturbation is a game of the mind. While you are at it, you are fantasizing about a man or woman who is not your wife or hubby if you are single. The mind is a platform for transformation for christians. Paul advised that we should continually renew it. We renew it with God's word and positive thoughts.

The devil understood the key role our minds play in our christian development so he doesn't want us to use it appropriately - this is the reason why he brings negative information that are contrary to God's word into our minds.

Now the practice of masturbation with our mind thinking of illicit sex with someone we are not married to is one way we help the devil to corrupt our minds.

Now I am aware that singles will occasionally burn with passion (yes I know because I have been there before), paul advised they get married. If you are still young to get married, you can help yourself to stop masturbation by working on your mind storing the right information into it.

There are so many things you can do.

Christianity is real work and fighting off any habit that gets us disturbed after we do it is real work.

Many who have argued for this habit have not been bold to declare publicly that they do it.

All said and done, don't ever condemn yourself because you got involved in it (don't justify it either) but rather go before the Holy Spirit to help you against it.

God bless you.

+1.

All uncleaness is sin.

: LightHammer  Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 14:30:28

: mrhockey903  Thu Sep 08, 2011 - 13:50:44
That's great and all LightHammer but that was written by man, not God. It does not explicitly say "do not masturbate" like it does "do not be a drunkard". Don't try to use man's doctrine as God's. I agree with a lot of what's being said, it is hard to masturbate without having lustful images in your head, a lot of times having those images in your head is what brings masturbation about. But like chosen said, what if you're away from your spouse and you are thinking of them at the time? And it also can't be good if it becomes a dominating drive or you over-indulge.

It's very hard to say either way, especially distinguishing between married people and singles. But I don't think anyone should write it in stone saying that it's ok or it's not.

In that case.

This comes from 38th chapter of the Book of Genesis:

    (7) And Her, the firstborn of Juda, was wicked in the sight of the Lord: and was slain by him.

        (8) Juda therefore said to Onan his son: Go in to thy brother's wife and marry her, that thou mayst raise seed to thy brother.

        (9) He, knowing that the children should not be his, when he went in to his brother's wife, spilled his seed upon the ground,
       
        (6)

           lest children should be born in his brother's name.

        (10) And therefore the Lord slew him, because he did a detestable thing.

Onan was sentenced to death by God for ejaculating on the floor. From Sacred Scripture alone it is absolutely clear that masturbation, artificial contraception and any attempts to compromise God's design for sex are wrong in His sight.

Brother Hammer, the sin was not masturbating which I'm sure Onan was not doing, but the sin was withdrawing from his sister-in-law and spilling the seed instead of impregnating her.

Genesis 38:8  And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.
 
Mosaic Law

Deuteronomy 25:5-6  If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband's brother unto her. 6  And it shall be, that the firstborn which she beareth shall succeed in the name of his brother which is dead, that his name be not put out of Israel.

: Warrior For Truth  Sun Jun 17, 2012 - 04:13:40
All uncleaness is sin.

That is absolutely not true.

Husband and wife sex is commanded in both testaments and makes you unclean. That makes you unclean:

Lev 15:18  'If a man lies with a woman so that there is a seminal emission, they shall both bathe in water and be unclean until evening.

God designed women to have a monthly menstrual period.  That makes you unclean:

Lev 15:19  'When a woman has a discharge, if her discharge in her body is blood, she shall continue in her menstrual impurity for seven days; and whoever touches her shall be unclean until evening.
Lev 15:20  'Everything also on which she lies during her menstrual impurity shall be unclean, and everything on which she sits shall be unclean.

Touching a dead body makes you unclean:

Num 19:11  'The one who touches the corpse of any person shall be unclean for seven days.

And being in the same room where there is or was a dead body causes uncleanness:

Num 19:14  'This is the law when a man dies in a tent: everyone who comes into the tent and everyone who is in the tent shall be unclean for seven days.

And the red heifer, whose ashes were required to negate that uncleanness made those who prepared it unclean:

Num 19:2  "This is the statute of the law which the LORD has commanded, saying, 'Speak to the sons of Israel that they bring you an unblemished red heifer in which is no defect and on which a yoke has never been placed.
Num 19:3  'You shall give it to Eleazar the priest, and it shall be brought outside the camp and be slaughtered in his presence.
Num 19:4  'Next Eleazar the priest shall take some of its blood with his finger and sprinkle some of its blood toward the front of the tent of meeting seven times.
Num 19:5  'Then the heifer shall be burned in his sight; its hide and its flesh and its blood, with its refuse, shall be burned.
Num 19:6  'The priest shall take cedar wood and hyssop and scarlet material and cast it into the midst of the burning heifer.
Num 19:7  'The priest shall then wash his clothes and bathe his body in water, and afterward come into the camp, but the priest shall be unclean until evening.
Num 19:8  'The one who burns it shall also wash his clothes in water and bathe his body in water, and shall be unclean until evening.


Jesus Himself touched a few dead bodies in his day to raise them up.  As a Jewish male born under the law, he was rendered unclean by touching or even being near a dead body and had to undergo that purification rite.

Did our Lord sin? ? ? ?

: Alfred_Ho  Mon Jun 18, 2012 - 04:05:50
Clearly anyone who masturbates is going straight to hell. They are also disgusting and weird.

Based on what?

In the Song of Solomon there is a passage in which Shulamite appears to be masturbating and is called "undefiled." (chapter 5)

: DaveW  Mon Jun 18, 2012 - 07:47:02

In the Song of Solomon there is a passage in which Shulamite appears to be masturbating and is called "undefiled." (chapter 5)

I see the undefiled as a picture of the bride; where do you get the suggestion of masturbation?

You have to dig thru the layers of symbolism.

Brief guide:  
Garden = genitals.  (common in mideastern erotic poetry)
Flowers = female genitals.   (common in mideastern erotic poetry)
Myrrh (and sometimes frankinsense) = female wetness of arousal. (explaination too explicit for this forum)

vs 2 - sleeping but heart awake = either dreaming or fantasizing

vs 4  - hand by the hole of the door Original text stops at hole. "door" or "latch" added by translators.  The word means either a hole in the ground or a body orifice.

vs 4 - heart pounding - a sign of arousal

vs 5  - Her fingers are dripping wet as she gets out of bed. I am sure several of our ladies here will understand that very well.

: DaveW  Mon Jun 18, 2012 - 07:47:02

In the Song of Solomon there is a passage in which Shulamite appears to be masturbating and is called "undefiled." (chapter 5)

: larry2  Mon Jun 18, 2012 - 10:18:39

I see the undefiled as a picture of the bride; where do you get the suggestion of masturbation?

: DaveW  Mon Jun 18, 2012 - 10:36:38

You have to dig thru the layers of symbolism.

Brief guide: 
Garden = genitals.  (common in mideastern erotic poetry)
Flowers = female genitals.   (common in mideastern erotic poetry)
Myrrh (and sometimes frankinsense) = female wetness of arousal. (explaination too explicit for this forum)

Oh brother, I'm not into erotic poetry so I reckon I'll just not learn.

: larry2Oh brother, I'm not into erotic poetry so I reckon I'll just not learn.

Neither am I.  But I did a dig-in-deep study of SOS back in the late 1980s and found all kinds of references to other erotic poetry. So I learned more than I really wanted to. 

When I showed this bit of what I found to my wife, (who had grown up with her mom and the church saying how evil the big "M" was) she just looked at it and shook her head and said "If only those old ladies had a CLUE what was in their bibles...."   LOL!!!

Does anyone believe we're being had by a troll?  ::smile::