Christian Forums

marc, Skip & truthseeker

I'm guilty of saying I believe or I think rather than quoting scripture.  I think part of this is due to the fact it at least has the appearance of proof-texting. Also as you begin to quote scripture the posts become quite long.  However, you have made a good point and I'll try harder in the futher to at least reference scripture.

It seems that most of the lessons I hear are proof texted rather than looking at a whole book or at least an entire thought.  Think that the epistles in the NT would have been much shorter if God had only wanted proof-texts.

Thanks all for your thoughts on "Sound Biblical Preaching".  It has been a help to me.

Bill

Hi Barry,
I am neither a preacher nor a scholar.  But i'm going to express my opinion here.

If I stand up in front of a group of people and say "Here is what I believe and why I believe it", and proceed to read some scripture verses to support my belief; that is one thing.

But if I stand in front of a group of people and say "This is the word of God", then I had better be powerfully certain that I am speaking the word of God.

Jesus could do that in a narrative fashion because he has the authority to do so.  I do not.

I don't think anyone was saying that narrative, or topical, sermons are inherently bad or wrong.  Speaking just for myself, I feel I have an obligation to measure what a preacher says against the Word of God.  When the scripture references in a sermon are scattered throughout the Bible, that makes it difficult for me.  I would rather, in most cases, that a preacher confine a sermon to one or two passages.  I have no problem with them expounding, expanding, using parables, or examples from everyday life that relate to the scripture passage being referenced.

I hope that makes sense.  I also hope I did not completely misunderstand the thrust of your post.  If I did, I apologize for my ignorance.

Richard

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (patriciaredstone @ Mar. 09 2002,05:11)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I appreciate preachers who do not exploit the pulpit by boring me or insisting that I take notes on the prepared handouts for a banal, sterotypic sermon ... But other than some wonderful teaching i have heard while visiting lectureships, that is all I have experienced for twenty years.

Last year, our church was looking for a new minister. The search committee -- as committees usually do -- put out a request for information that might lead to a new preacher. I suggested that we not hire a pulpit minister at all. Using our very large budget I demonstrated how our church could afford to hire a new speaker/lecturer each week. We could have the best of the best. College professors, authors, key-note speakers from the big lectureships. We already have three professional ministers on staff to oversee, evangelism, family activites and youth and singles. Counseling is handled by a professional Christian marriage and family therapist. So why settle for mediocrity when we can afford the best sermons money can buy? Of course this idea did not go over very well because it was unusual and so, we are stuck with the "usual."

But this idea is not new! I think the time for the "mule-back" preacher has returned! The preacher shortage is largely due to a competition with Christian universities. Men go to these schools intending to become ministers and find themselves choosing the security and intellectual/spiritual life of the academic community over the ministry. If we could find a way to entice these guys to be "mule back" preachers once a month or so, they could have their cake and eat it too![/quote]
As a suggestion, have you ever thought about filling your pulpit from within your congregation? I certainly have no intent of offending nor defaming any one, but I would like to comment that we have fallen victim to a paradigm which appears to dictate that a pulpit must be filled by a "Trained Preacher" with credentials etcetera. While many trained preachers are stalwarts in their faith and the Word, where is our trust in the Holy Spirit to lead us and guide us? Why cannot men of faith step forth from the congregation to fill an empty pulpit?  Is the pulpit such an onerous task that we must hire someone to fill it?  Or is the pulpit an opportunity to serve our Lord trusting in His grace to lead guide and direct us?

Is preaching a profession or is it a calling?

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Barry @ Mar. 10 2002,11:15)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you. (Hebrews 13:17)[/quote]
Barry,

Caution my brother, the passage is a little too simplistic for the depth of the problem. Certain counsels from our Lord Jesus Christ are in order.

First when we enter the pulpit, we give our life to Him.

John 10:11
I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

John 21:15
So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.

John 21:16
He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

John 21:17
He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

There are 24 hours in the day.  Would that we could give Him all 24.

Second, while leadership is a serious responsiblility, it is not free license.  Certain issues of pastoral failings have been raised.  Paul's exhortation does not address these. From Jesus we learn that the failings of church leaders is nothing new nor is it anything that ended with His coming.

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that
doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 7:22  
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy
name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Matthew 7:23  
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Matthew 23:13
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Matthew 23:14
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

Matthew 23:15
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Matthew 23:23
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
 

As a caution our Lord advises us.

Matthew 5:20
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.


In the pulpit we are indeed falible, our sins and the our potential to sin is indeed great. We have need to attend to the righteous criticisms from our flocks.

Seeker, Here is that website:

http://www.theseeker.org/radical/ (http://www.theseeker.org/radical/)

What concievable Biblical basis could be found to exhort the youth of the congregation to sit up front? The mutual edification exhortation example given has to be one of the most interesting interpretations I have encountered. Was there more or was this it?

Working with youth the question is always, "What do you do when they read Joband meet Elihu?" Always better to accept that they are indeed a part of the church. From the moment of baptism forward they share the same responsibilities as other members and enjoy the same rights.

Mike,

How right you are that sinners -- regardless of the nature of the sin -- should be welcomed into fellowship. We are all sinners. However, I disagree that rapists, pedophiles and any person who is a registered offender should be allowed to participate in leadership. Leaders should be beyond reproach. For the remainder of these individuals lives their identity will be open to the public as dangerous to society. To put them in positions of leadership would be, in my opinion, a poor witness to the community.

Responsible church leaders will go to a few minutes of trouble to ask the police if suspicious individuals are registered offenders or are under investigation. In my experience the police are very helpful if they feel that children may be in danger. (They might say "you didn't get this information from me, but ...) And of course all responsible leaders do a registered offender check on all individuals who work with the precious children of the church. All three of our churches known offenders were very helpful with the children and teens.
And yes, one of them had been sexually abused in his childhood by his father who was an elder and was deceased at the time of his son's conviction. The children do inherit the sins of the fathers.

I do not believe that any sin is unforgivable. Grace truly covers all!!! But sin often has consequences that cannot be recovered.

Some of these thoughts about Christian camp counsellors have made me think.  I made the decision nine years ago to no longer volunteer as a camp counsellor until more than one adult was placed in a cabin at a time.  The reasons given here never occurred to me. I guess they should have--I'm past thirty and single, which apparently could make me "suspect" in some people's minds, though honestly I've never encountered this.  But my mind never even went in that direction.

No, my decision was made after being in charge of a group of a dozen or so kids ranging in age from 8 to 14 for a week, and bearing the responsibility of everything from making sure the kids took their medication ("if he misses once, he'll have a seizure") to making sure they didn't kill each other.  No one else at the camp stopped by to check on the kids (I was provided with two junior counsellors, but they were kept busy with outside duties from wake-up to well past curfew),and--this concerned me most--no one at the camp had medical training.

I didn't just feel inadequate for the job I clearly WAS inadequate.

I'm afraid, though, that this reveals much of what goes on in our activities, particularly in some of the areas where churches aren't as large or well-staffed.  We begin with good intentions, yet we don't forsee consequences.   As far as I know, there have been no instances of abuse in the thirty-year history of this camp. But could it happen?  Of course.  Are any precautions taken to prevent it from happening?  No.  

This is scary when you stop and think about it.

Narrow would be the line between vigilant oversight and obsessive persecution. I pray for wisdom in those congregations faced with this dilemna, thank the Lord we are not. But then as I said child molesters here do not have a long life span, so we have a problem of our own in horrible prisons with quite cruel vigilante squads operating within the prisons themselves.

There are never easy answers for the complex problems of man, the lion roars and delights in spreading his hate and discontent.  Thank the Lord that we have something much better to look forward to.  

Dios te bendiga
Booty

Your narrative reminds me of Thomas More in "A Man for All Seasons," which is, as you know, based on a true story. Something like this is bitter medicine for our naivete. If one-tenth of the energy that is devoted to tearing down could be channeled into doing good, how powerful would be the effect!

Jane,

With these words you clearly voiced the frustration within me.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I find most people in the Bible studies I have taken part in do not have a sufficient knowledge of the scriptures to reason for themselves. Some people know what the scriptures say when they read them, but they do not know what the scriptures are saying to them in the context of what they were saying to the hearers at the time they were written.  In other words, I believe the scripture cannot mean anything different to us today than it meant to the audience to whom it was written. What do you think? [/quote]

Presently this is one of the major "thorns" in my side at my present congregation.  Most of the messages seem to be topical and very little book by book, chapter by chapter, verse by verse exposition. How does one define sound biblical preaching?

Nicholas...saved by grace

jmfair60 - I heard Abe Lincoln speak once in Montana.  The preacher who got him to come to MT was also a graduate of Sunset School of Preaching.

Bill

Hi Richard,
No disagreement here - I understand what you are saying and believe you are correct. My only concern was that we are describing expository preaching as "biblical preaching", yet we don't find that type of preaching in the Bible. From a preacher's standpoint, topical preaching can be very difficult, because we want to make sure that we use all the various scriptures, from throughout the Bible, within their proper context. Of course, the ones that do not do this are taking the lazy way out, but for most of us, when we preach topically it is really quite a chore. I find it much easier to preach expository messages, but I think I can make more relevant application using topical messages (most of the time).

In Christ,
Barry

I appreciate preachers who do not exploit the pulpit by boring me or insisting that I take notes on the prepared handouts for a banal, sterotypic sermon ... But other than some wonderful teaching i have heard while visiting lectureships, that is all I have experienced for twenty years.

Last year, our church was looking for a new minister. The search committee -- as committees usually do -- put out a request for information that might lead to a new preacher. I suggested that we not hire a pulpit minister at all. Using our very large budget I demonstrated how our church could afford to hire a new speaker/lecturer each week. We could have the best of the best. College professors, authors, key-note speakers from the big lectureships. We already have three professional ministers on staff to oversee, evangelism, family activites and youth and singles. Counseling is handled by a professional Christian marriage and family therapist. So why settle for mediocrity when we can afford the best sermons money can buy? Of course this idea did not go over very well because it was unusual and so, we are stuck with the "usual."

But this idea is not new! I think the time for the "mule-back" preacher has returned! The preacher shortage is largely due to a competition with Christian universities. Men go to these schools intending to become ministers and find themselves choosing the security and intellectual/spiritual life of the academic community over the ministry. If we could find a way to entice these guys to be "mule back" preachers once a month or so, they could have their cake and eat it too!

Bill

I read your servant's heart and see your love. I will say again, I believe that so many pastors started off with a heart for God and it is the "system" that exists today that is the culprit. So many have lost sight of Jesus being head of the church and us just being brothers and sisters in the Lord. I know that because i have the same nature as the rest of us that is in war with the Spirit, that I could easily fall prey to phariseeism by being looked up to by so many. I would not want that responsibility, but I also believe that, again, the set up in the churches today is not how it was meant to be. And my intention was not to lump all preachers or pastors together and did not say that--but I know God put me in that place to see what was happening so I would follow HIM and that phariseeism does run rampant. How many have given up on "church"? How many do live in bitterness from the lack of love that pushed them out? It isn't just happening today but has always been the problem throughout history, and many of the past saints have recognized what I do and spoken out against religiosity. I still am working out my own approach to others with what He has shown me and know where to keep my sight--on Him. There was a reason Paul had a thorn in the flesh--to keep pride from undermining him. That is the part of our nature that the enemy works on most--it's what threw Lucifer out of heaven. In 1Tim.3:6 it says...or he may become conceited and fall under the same JUDGMENT as the devil. See the trap of pride that can destroy any of us? Can we fall? I hate it when I recognize it in myself and am still working out my salvation with fear and trembling. May grace abound.

seekr

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (seekr @ Mar. 11 2002,1:43)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Yes Patricia, it is well said. But I think my point is escaping some of you. We are ALL the congregation, with Jesus as the head. We ALL have a responsibility to one another with love as the law. There is no heiarchy other then our Lord. I do not meet in any of the organizations as that is how I view them--organizations. But I also know my brothers and sisters are in them. Am I able to serve without being in a building with the label "church"? Do others minister to me and I to them without meeting on Sunday? Did Paul consider himself set apart from the congregation or set apart from the world? His leadership was just serving and our perception of leadership is to set us above the crowd with the answers when we are ALL taught by the Lord and can share with one another what God has revealed to each of us. And yes, there are different ministries and gifts we are called to with Jesus as the head. Paul said he considerd the apostles as last in the procession because that is how he was treated. Kind of like sweeping up the mess left behind from our erring ways. Do I know all? Do I need to learn from you? I know I need you as much as you need me. We know we are disciples by the love we have for one another, not our preaching style or our knowledge or even our faith is considered anything if we don't have love.

seekr[/quote]
Seeker,

You are talking restoration here! Some call it Radical Restoration after the new book by F. LaGard Smith. Many members of the Church of Christ are giving up on the conventional mainstream church and starting the restoration movement afresh (radical restoration is really just a nice way to say iconoclast.) Still, I think it is a wonderful new evolution for the church of Christ. I wish the instigator was someone else, though. I have to wonder if Smith, (who holds strongly to traditional gender roles in the church and in the home) is not organizing a mass exit just as women are migrating from "outside the camp" to the center of church activites. There is website in the making, I think. You might key in Radical Restoraion and see what comes up.

Patricia, I've never felt that the age compartments were an attempt to regulate but then I've been in some really good congregations.

I think it is just a good intentioned attempt to meet the needs of different groups within the body without understanding that the calendar has little to do with where we fit in.

Patricia,

I have also had some experiences in church conflict on how to deal with those convicted of some abusive crime, including pedophilia. As you well know, pedophiles, or other abusers for that matter, were likely abused themselves and continue the pattern. They are highly susceptible to this type of sin, and Satan will attack them with temptations in this area to destroy them. If he can use this to destroy a church as well, so much the better, from a demonic viewpoint.

So, We need to be cautious with these people, for their sake and the sake of the church. Although I cannot comprehend the desire to abuse an innocent child, and the idea revolts me, I know that my own particular sins revolt God just as much. I cannot feel superior to a pedophile, because I am also a sinner. It's just that my areas of temptation are different. We certainly should be forgiving and willing to welcome any believer into fellowship who worships our Lord, while encouraging them to persist in the process of sanctification and holiness.

IMO, this encouragement includes helping them to avoid situations where they are likely to be tempted in an area of personal weakness. So, obviously, you wouldn't let a pedophile work in the nursery or youth group. This would not prevent them from being openly penitent and ministering in another area. Also, IMO, someone who abused such a trust in the recent past has no business in a leadership position in the church. Trust must be earned; it cannot be commanded. This does not mean such a person could never be a church leader, but just that sufficient time would need to pass for their life to demonstrate sufficient fruit to convince others of their trustworthiness. I would think that usually this would be quite a long time.

Finally, I believe the book you referred to earlier was Love Your God With All Your Mind, by J.P. Moreland. This is an excellent book, and challenges to use our mind as we deal with issues of faith.

Mike
:D

Bob<< Is there just more of this stuff than ever, or is it simply being identified and labeled? >>

Bob,

I think it is a bit of both. Pedophilia increases with the population. Explicit television sex scenes make children who act out things they do not understand into easy prey for the pedophile. In close communities residents tend to share more information which keeps pedophiles under more controled conditions (they still abuse but their abuse is limited to close relatives or very vulnerable neighbors) but today pedophiles are being encouraged in our large communites by absentee parenting styles which are dependent on low-wage or free assistance. Also, in the not-too-distant past, people thought of pedophilia as mere eccentricism. When I lived in Italy, it was a routine part of our morning to dodge an exhibitionist priest as we boarded the school bus in the piazza of our little rural mountain villiage! On the way home from school in the afternoon pedophiles were parked in their cars calling out to the children to come over and have a piece of chocolate. Once in a while an old woman would storm out of her house and hit them with a dishtowel and them to go home.

My neice by adoption was used by her parents, grandparents, friends, neighbors as a sex toy. Today, by a miracle of God she is recovered. Sadly, her brother and sister will be institutionalised with schizophrenia for the remainder of their lives.

Child molestation is a very scary problem. I see no short term solutions. But if churches will be cautious, aware and open to taking some precautions we can at least prevent ourselves from becoming havens for this extremely harmful addiction.

<< No we should not put child molesters in charge of the nursery, no more than we would put an recovering alcoholic in charge of the communion wine. >>

Right you are that deliberate and vigilant oversight is our Christian duty to the child molestor in the fellowship of the church.

<< But our prayers for both are warranted, no mandated by our Lord. >>

Amen! And who would suggest otherwise?

Bob,

Interesting you see the Thomas Moore connection. I saw a new production of Man for All Seasons a few weeks ago. Yes, it was very similar. The best friends and closest confindants of this minister were also the churches largest donors ... and his betrayers. They were (are) extremely wealthy, perhaps the wealthiest people in our town. This is not the first time I have seen a connection between wealth and the downfall of a spiritual community.

From what I know of Jane she is very mature, a deep thinker, and yet open minded.  Her comment to the effect that the words back then meant the same  as they do now.  However, modern day peoples' problems may be a bit more complex than in Biblical times, and the average layman of today is much more sophisticated than back then.  

People do tend to merely repeat what they have learned without stopping to think what it really means, but one has to
start somewhere.  As time passes I continue to gain a larger and better understanding of Christianity.

How strange that I found this conversation today!!  Last night I attended a friend's mid-week church service.  I have attended with her many times (the church I worship with doesn't have a Wed night service) and have begun to make some friends there.  In talking with one of them, I mentioned that no one seems to be interested in truth anymore.  People of all backgrounds and denominations that I've heard talking about "choosing" a church have all kinds of criteria that have nothing to do with truth or Biblical preaching.  A new coworker was asking me what I knew of churches in the area,  and told me the important thing was that they have a "children's service" during the sermon.

Discussion about various church "programs" aside, I was talking with my friend at that service about this, and how appalled I was by it.  Because what I want to hear most is the voice of God--in sermon, Bible reading, etc.  The preacher at my congregation preaches straight through  books of the Bible.  This was my first experience with preaching of this type and I love it.  Last year we went through Galatians and Ephesians.  This year we have finished Philippians and Colossians.  How refreshing to be able to follow through the thought of the original writer!

"My problem is that now I'm always wondering or questioning whether the prooftext being used is in context.  So instead of being fed by the teaching, I'm trying to read surrounding verses (quickly)   to get a full understanding."

This comment by Nicholas rings right on with me.  I get behind in topical sermons, because I'm trying to find the context of the previous scripture.  I think that it is important that we know what scripture says about various topics, but a topical sermon with tons of scriptures gets me so lost.  I enjoyed one sermon I heard on prayer where the minister used only two main texts and their contexts.  He then encouraged us to all study the topic for ourselves and gave 6 or 7 additional passages to look up.  I enjoyed that, but I was sad that so few people within the congregation even wrote the scriptures down to look up later.

Growing up in the Church of Christ we would call ourselves the "people of the book", and there was strong emphasis from youth on to study and know the Bible.  Yet in more recent years this seems to have declined.  An older woman in my previous congregation (CofC) stated in response to my question about daily reading of scripture, "I don't read much for myself--it is too hard to understand"  More often I hear how busy-ness takes over our lives and scripture study and prayer seem to "fall by the way side" :(

It is rare in my experience to find those who truly study and seek the truth to be found in scripture.  (And when I do find someone like that we tend to be magnetically drawn to each other--even if I'm just out travelling and visiting other places!) I agree with Marc and Skip and I, too, hope I am not just pessimistic ???  Even some of those most zealous about certain topics don't always have the understanding of the scriptures, reminding me of Paul's comment about his fellow Jews, "For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge." (Romans 10:2)

Skip's quotes from Psalm 119 sum it up very well--we need to meditate upon the word and let that light guide our paths!!!  Although my personal preferences lean away from topical sermons, I don't mind them, as long as they remain based in truth ;)

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Nicholas @ Feb. 10 2002,4:51)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Jane,

With these words you clearly voiced the frustration within me.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I find most people in the Bible studies I have taken part in do not have a sufficient knowledge of the scriptures to reason for themselves. Some people know what the scriptures say when they read them, but they do not know what the scriptures are saying to them in the context of what they were saying to the hearers at the time they were written.  In other words, I believe the scripture cannot mean anything different to us today than it meant to the audience to whom it was written. What do you think? [/quote]

Presently this is one of the major "thorns" in my side at my present congregation.  Most of the messages seem to be topical and very little book by book, chapter by chapter, verse by verse exposition. How does one define sound biblical preaching?

Nicholas...saved by grace[/quote]
If you are speaking about bible study or Sunday school classes then I agree with you.  However, you might consider this.  Different people have different reasons for reading the Bible, and therefore tend to extract different meanings from what they have read.  In other words, they tend to see what they want to see and ignore the parts they aren't interested in.  It all comes down to why one reads the Bible and what one expects from his practice of religion.

You probably would be dismayed at a typical Methodist sermon, because in general a Methodist minister will try to illustrate how to apply scriptural principles to our every day human needs rather than expounding on the beauty and the virtues of scripture.  It's a rather practical approach to religion in that it is used to serve our needs rather than just being something to marvel at.  

It's nice to read the Bible and to sit in awe at the power of the Lord, and some people are really into that part of believing.  I personally am not interested in being an expert on the meaning of the scriptures, and perfer to simply use Christian principles to guide me in my everyday behavior and affairs.  I got the salvation business out of the way long ago (I'm 63) so I have moved on to using the Lord's teachings to live my life.  If I may, religion is a prescription for living as well as a means of salvation, so I take a much more pragmatic view of religion than the idealist.  Some prefer to talk it, where I prefer to use it.  Hopes this sheds some light on your concerns.

I am challenged by Nicholas' "saved by grace" logo. As Helmut Thielicke said, the Christian should carry an "R" in front of his or her name to indicate they will be resurrected by the living Savior.
On the need to get into expository preaching once again, and it will be difficult to jettison our topical sermons, since they are such fun, and how we love the anagrams and the fourteen points, etc. (Actually if a preacher tells me he has 10 points in the sermon I always time the first point and multiply by ten!) That can be scary!
Textual preaching simply leaves God in charge of the sermon. There must be some reason the Holy Spirit has preserved the canon of Scripture for us (ala 2 Tim 3:16)!  So, why not trust the Spirit to use His wonderful instrument? The best preaching I have ever heard was always a challenge coming from the text, in which I was confronted with the text, and thus confronted with the Word of God.
Granted, this takes a good deal more work, familiarity with the original text, and an eldership that supports real "sound preaching."  I suppose everyone with any Bible knowledge knows that the word "sound" found in 1,2 Tim and Titus really does not mean "conforming to the brotherhood norm," but means healthy or health-giving (Gr hygies).
I'm all for more health-giving sermons!

Barry, your insights are helpful and come from your convictions on the topic (no pun intended). Of course, I can only speak from my own point of view. If someone were to do topical preaching, as you suggest it should be done, I would have no problem with it. In fact, it would converge with my idea of good exposition. I don't know why you are so resistant to the idea of using the term "biblical preaching," unless you mean to affirm that expository preaching is not biblical. Granted, it should not be considered the only valid mode for conveying the Word, but it is certainly a valid one and is more apt to perserve the intent of the Holy Spirit, in my view, than embracing a topic which will always be somewhat of a generalization one step away from a particular passage.
If you have studied General Semantics, you may remember the Abstraction Ladder concept that starts at the top with a term like "assests" and goes on down the abstraction ladder to the final term "Bessie the Cow." It seems to me that topical preaching is a least one more rung up on the ladder of abstraction than working through a text. I know that textual preaching demands contextualization as well as conceptualization, as does all good topical preaching. I suppose I feel more comfortable dealing directly with what the Holy Spirit has preserved for us than I do trying to impose some grid of reference upon it.

Hello to you all,
This is certainly quite a heated discussion.  Normally I appreciate the way issues are discussed and the Christ-like behavior.  What happened?  It seems that all pastors have been lumped together.  It is too bad this discussion is going this way.  Let us pray for our pastors. ???

Bill, I appreciate you and your work. Still, you must realise that many individuals who do not call themselves "preachers" or "pastors" also labor as you do 60-80 hours a week for the Lord. Consider those in para-church organisations, those who write, lecture, and serve the poor and afflicted. Not all who serve the Lord 60-80 hours a week have the title "preacher." My sister who works for no wage to insure the welfare for children without parents who live in foster care or orphanages is only one example. What happens when a child with AIDS dies? Who takes charge of the funeral? Who arranges flowers to be donated? Who stays overnight with the brothers and sisters to comfort them? A lady named Deborah in Mississippi. Again, I'm sure my experience is not the same as everyone else, but I have seen many preachers who simply are not up to the job requirements, the primary requirement being humility. In my life I have seen five Church of Christ preachers sleep with women who are not their wives. I have seen one who refused to use the word "love" in his sermons because he was "tired of all this love, love, love stuff being preached" and three others who refused to deny a convicted and registered child molester access to leadership in the church. These examples are not intended to put forth the message that all preachers are unfit. But to deny that the Church of Christ does have unfit ministers in the pulpit is denial of the truth. I'm tired of denial.

This is certainly one of the most emotional discussions I have read in a while, and I believe it indicates the intensity of our feelings about what goes on in that area of our meeting together we style as "the pulpit." I must confess I have been preaching for about 40 years. G. C. Brewer, himself a preacher for the CofC, wrote a book near the end of his life called; "40 Years on the Firing Line." I read this as I was fresh out of the USMC and trying to find a way to devote my life to the Lord. The book scared me, and then I thought; "Surely Christians will be decent and supportive persons. I must learn to trust my spiritual family more." And, by and large that has been true. Most folks have been supportive and kind, although I have unwittingly at times let them down, frustrated them, and blessedly, been able to help them.
In January, for the first time in a 42 year ministry I was asked to resign, largely because I could not accept the narrowing vision of our leadership and I could not alter the message of the Gospel to dovetail with a cheerleader mentality. I do not say this to gain any applause, and you can tell I trust myself to the kindness of other believers or I would hide my true experiences from you. I have discovered that if God had not permitted people into the church then we would have had perfect churches. As it is, pastors, people and preachers are all very fallible persons.
I believe the preacher/pastor has to accept Paul's rationale in 2 Cor. 4: "We have renounced disgraceful underhanded manipulation...."  And, While we preach not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord...."
I could recite many instances of such manipulation, but I could also recite many many more instances of persons giving their sincere and wonderful best in trying to share the good news. We must find a way to accept the human composition of the church. As an analogy, when I want to hear top notch music performed at a high professional level I go to hear the Chicago Symphony or some such orchestra. When I go to the assembly I expect to hear not the Chicago Symphony Chorus singing Bruckner, but my spiritual family, some singing off key (including me), some singing very well, but perhaps most raising an anthem of praise to God, who no doubt hears it as a finer piece of work than the Chicago Symphonic Choir has ever sung. Grace transforms all.

Yes Patricia, it is well said. But I think my point is escaping some of you. We are ALL the congregation, with Jesus as the head. We ALL have a responsibility to one another with love as the law. There is no heiarchy other then our Lord. I do not meet in any of the organizations as that is how I view them--organizations. But I also know my brothers and sisters are in them. Am I able to serve without being in a building with the label "church"? Do others minister to me and I to them without meeting on Sunday? Did Paul consider himself set apart from the congregation or set apart from the world? His leadership was just serving and our perception of leadership is to set us above the crowd with the answers when we are ALL taught by the Lord and can share with one another what God has revealed to each of us. And yes, there are different ministries and gifts we are called to with Jesus as the head. Paul said he considerd the apostles as last in the procession because that is how he was treated. Kind of like sweeping up the mess left behind from our erring ways. Do I know all? Do I need to learn from you? I know I need you as much as you need me. We know we are disciples by the love we have for one another, not our preaching style or our knowledge or even our faith is considered anything if we don't have love.

seekr

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]This is certainly one of the most emotional discussions I have read in a while, and I believe it indicates the intensity of our feelings about what goes on in that area of our meeting together we style as "the pulpit." I must confess I have been preaching for about 40 years. G. C. Brewer, himself a preacher for the CofC, wrote a book near the end of his life called; "40 Years on the Firing Line." I read this as I was fresh out of the USMC and trying to find a way to devote my life to the Lord. The book scared me, and then I thought; "Surely Christians will be decent and supportive persons. I must learn to trust my spiritual family more." And, by and large that has been true. Most folks have been supportive and kind, although I have unwittingly at times let them down, frustrated them, and blessedly, been able to help them.
In January, for the first time in a 42 year ministry I was asked to resign, largely because I could not accept the narrowing vision of our leadership and I could not alter the message of the Gospel to dovetail with a cheerleader mentality. I do not say this to gain any applause, and you can tell I trust myself to the kindness of other believers or I would hide my true experiences from you. I have discovered that if God had not permitted people into the church then we would have had perfect churches. As it is, pastors, people and preachers are all very fallible persons.
I believe the preacher/pastor has to accept Paul's rationale in 2 Cor. 4: "We have renounced disgraceful underhanded manipulation...."  And, While we preach not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord...."
I could recite many instances of such manipulation, but I could also recite many many more instances of persons giving their sincere and wonderful best in trying to share the good news. We must find a way to accept the human composition of the church. As an analogy, when I want to hear top notch music performed at a high professional level I go to hear the Chicago Symphony or some such orchestra. When I go to the assembly I expect to hear not the Chicago Symphony Chorus singing Bruckner, but my spiritual family, some singing off key (including me), some singing very well, but perhaps most raising an anthem of praise to God, who no doubt hears it as a finer piece of work than the Chicago Symphonic Choir has ever sung. Grace transforms all.[/quote]
Bob,
I need some help here. Explain what you meant with this :D

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I could not alter the message of the Gospel to dovetail with a cheerleader mentality. [/quote]

Nicholas....saved by grace

I agree that all this compartmentalization was started with good intentions and to make sure no one was neglected, but if you have too much analysis with no synthesis you have paralysis. Obviously we do not all fit in certain neat compartments, and for the Evangelism Minister to think he or she is the only one with a proper slant on doing evangelism properly is preposterous. I was at a banquet once and they recognized people there by the number of conversions they claimed during the year, in numerical order. Then at the end, those who had fewer  than 10 conversions were told to work hard and next year they could be called to the stage and recognized! What happened to Paul's insight, that "I planted, Apollos watered, and God gave the increase."?
John 10 and John 13 still remain my favorite models of leadership, not the commercial or the military models.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (nerdneh @ Mar. 13 2002,3:57)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]How is it we try to  make so many things happen during a congregational worship period? We try and cram an incredible number of experiences into that one short period, when perhaps it would be a good time "to be still and know I am God." If you have to make it happen, you will cheat sooner or later, but if God is seen as the One who makes it happen, you can relax and leave the results with Him. I see congregational worship experience as a supplement to the main activity I  have as a Christian, that is worshipping and admiring God on a daily basis. When the only worship you experience takes place on a Sunday morning, no wonder you have to stuff so much into it.
It's kind of like traveling to California from Alabama. I don't have to order you to stop at gas stations, for if you want to get there you will. We shouldn't have to be ordered to attend worship but that has become a major concern of many ministers. Perhaps it's the old bottom line theology again. But stopping at gas stations is not the main reason for your trip, getting to California is! God knew we would need some time with our Christian family and in corporately recognizing our need for Him in order to make the journey to heaven, but the congregational worship period is not the be-all and end-all of the Christian journey. It is to help in that journey, not be that journey.[/quote]
Thank you Bob!

Do mind if I sign my name to that and nail it on my church door?

While my given name is Bill, my cherished nickname is Booty, (Actually it is spelled Brojees, but that is an awfully long story!), anyway to avoid confusion, please call me Booty.

We congregate for mutual edification and support, to shate the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ.  Mustangs have a duty as well to the group. Yes, Mustangs have matured more spiritually and that is exactly what they must share with the group.

Seekr, disfellowship, (Or excommunication as it is called here), is a unilateral manipulative tool. Noone can actually disfellowship you if you choose to maintain fellowship with them.  Of course you wind up turning the other cheek many times, but what greater joy can there be but in expressing love for one's enemies? Further the concept that an entire group can disfellowship you os quite inconceivable. Other mustangs always exist in any group and whether they have declared or not, they need your fellowship.

We are charged with the stewardship of His church here on earth. It remains our duty to stand up for His justice. Remember, He could have walked away when the pharisees first started disfellowshipping Him. Instead He stayed to fulfill the righteousness of His mission here on earth. Praise His Holy name for having done so,

Patricia,
All to often we seek out similar wounded frustrated souls to share our pain. I know it hurts, how do I know it hurts. Like you I can share tales of horror of the injustices done in His name, remember Inquisition is a latin concept! Down here they call the Legalists, "Nuestros amados hermanos talibanes" (Our beloved taliban brothers)  But frankly I suspect all are numb by this time to the horror tales, one more will do no good.

Instead of horror tales, let's start with PRAYER. As each reads this post, let their head be bowed and let them go to our Lord Jesus Christ beseeching His divine intervention in our lives to bring us peace, His peace which is a result of justice. Let them ask Him to touch the hearts of the legalists and open their minds and souls to the grace of His perfect love.

Then let us go again to our brothers and continue witnessing them of His love. Let us forgive them 70x7 times. When they turn their backs, their ears are still open. They can still hear the words, "I love you".  When not only the kiss of fellowship, but even a simple handshake is withheld, what greater opportunity to say those powerful words, "I Love You"

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (nerdneh @ Mar. 15 2002,9:10)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]patricia, I appreciate your latest post. This is a tough topic in some ways, and I was thinking of the individual more than the church. Of course, denial and failing to face up to horror is inexcusable. I am trying to get past some damaging events that have happened to me (and I know many others as well). I do not want to be a pollyanna and live in denial; as "It never really happened, or it was probably my fault." No! These events serious angered me, but I want to use that anger as fuel to escape the bog of victimhood, rather than allowing the anger to rob me of my joy in Christ.
Of course, I do not forget these experiences to the point of falling right back into the same old trap. I would never go to some abuser and ask him to abuse me all over again. I don't need to be a professional victim. I also cannot afford to be naive about abusive churches. We must, as Paul did, call a Corinth a Corinth, and the Galatians must still be confronted on their legalism. Years ago I did a retreat and it was on the Book of Colossians. After two or three lessons, the preacher approached me and said; "We are disappointed. We thought you would spend some time telling us how awful the legalistic churches of Christ are." I tried to point out that the experience under legalism is horrendous, as I believe legalism is a criminal doctine, and I felt we could discuss our pain, if that was what was needed, but at some point we needed to get on with our lives. There is a tension here, and it is significant. Can we get on with our lives, reclaim our joy and still be vigilant and aware of the spiritual abusers? I am searching for some balance here. Do you have any insights that will be helpful?[/quote]
Bob,

I think you were right at your retreat lecture to press on beyond legalism bashing. At some point someone has to say "let's get on with it." History has shown that the surest way to resurrect a new generation of legalism is to perpetually preach to the choir about the evils of legalism.

From the sound of it, it looks like you are in a familiar place... I know it ... Don't tell me! ... There's a rock on one side and a hard place on the other. Yes! the tension is significant. Do you succumb to platitudes about the opportunities of crisis and move ahead, come what may? Do you victimise yourself by making a point of not budging and holding to ground you no longer control...?

I think the solution is in using your wits, and I am not beyond flexing mine when the moment orders. What you have to offer and who you are has value. Jesus wrangled the Pharisees with his wits and bought himself some time. I think God especially loves the soul who is in a tight spot. If we hold onto our conscience, we have won the day if not the ground. We have survived, and there is joy in that.

Both I and my husband have been in tight spots -- seperate ones -- in the last two years. Mine was church related, his was not. I am amazed at what God did with these crisies! All we had to do was hold onto what we knew was right and without handling any of the details -- oh, we tried, but all for naught -- everything came out better than we could have planned! Of course this does not always happen, as in the horror story I related in the earlier post. All I can do is pray for those children who were abused. Pray that they do not grow up to be abusers too. But by holding onto the truth of my conscience, I have not become blind and there is joy in knowing that I was not pressured into becoming like some of the others who joined the leaders in forgiving and embracing the child molester -- allowing him back into the leadership -- and then bearing the burden of guilt and the shame of having my Christian faith exploited to protect the worse kind of criminal. I was called a "traitor of the faith" for standing up to the leadership. Well, behold the head of a traitor! I am at peace. Also, my husband and I were in the process of having charges of slander filed against us by the molester, but he could not restrain himself. He was convicted on new charges before he could file suit.

Stay true to your conscience ... true to your soul ... and God will see you through. The truth will out, and all of that corny stuff. If you are right, stay right. It is a recipe that works for everyone. If you are a diplomatic gentleman like yourself or an obnoxious "I told you soer" like me, right is right.

Bob,

I think the elders dealt quite well in that case. His episode at the church camp will precede him at church for years to come. Our church paid for sex-addiction counseling for a pedophile, too. But the licensed clinical counselor told us that it is better if the church still require the counseling along with full disclosure (interviews between the sexual offender and the elders about continuing danger to the church community and/or progress in the sexual offenders understanding and responsiblity of damages he has caused.) and require the offender to pay at least half of the cost of counseling.

As the problem of sexual addiction increases, it will be more and more important for churches to bring in professional help. From my perspective there is more of a problem in conservative churches. Unfortunately, the problem in our church began at the very top. Men who were not designated leaders had to work behind the scenes to solve the problem.

I hope that all camp directors will check the registered sex offenders list at the police department before the first day of camp. All you need is the residence zip-code of each counselor. It takes only a few minutes. Double up your counselors in each cabin or dorm. Make sure they are not buddies. If you cannot double up then organise shifts and make surprise visits throughout the night. If someone protests that these precautions are silly, you might seriously consider dropping him from the program. Children should never be left alone with a stranger ... not even a Christian stranger.

Patricia,

The limitations of the venue are such that we can only respond to what we can read. In reading your posts I have seen considerable pain and rancor. While our Lord never promised us a cessation of pain and suffering in this world, He did offer us a peace with which to accept the tribulations we must endure. As a pastor I feel compelled to reach out to and offer that peace to others when I perceive they are suffering.

Perhaps I enjoy the blessing of "radar" as well in that I sense pain in others readily. Although sometimes I wonder if this is truly a blessing.

Peace and the love of the Lord Jesus Christ is what I am asking in prayer for you. We learned in Psalms 37 that evildoers would not endure and Christ confirmed this. Woe be unto any unrepentant child molester that would arrive at judgement day with the blood and tears of innocent children on his filthy hands. I would expect a fury that I would not want to even witness.

No we should not put child molesters in charge of the nursery, no more than we would put an recovering alcoholic in charge of the communion wine. But our prayers for both are warranted, no mandated by our Lord.

Welcome to my prayers for the child molesters, I can imagine the images they face when they repent. Can you envision living with that sin on your conscience?

En la amor de Jesus Cristo, Dios te bendiga.

Booty

I wish someone would publish these stories. Explaining evil should be a part of the human experience. I remember that during this time of crisis I was reading M. Scott Peck's "People of the Lie" a collection of real-life stories of the corruption of the soul. Evil is hard to explain, but it is real.

It was torture for this pastor to be restrained by the law to preach against the evil that was going on in the church. The lawyers, courts and judge kept him from speaking to many of the members. Even the content of his sermons were scrutinzed by the lawyers for slander, perjury, whatever they could use.

He was a dignified man, never faltered in his faith. He was martyerd.

Time for a change from horror stories.

I have met a man, Alvaro Bermudez, that is currently on a solo mission to evangelize to the Guajiro indians. He went to bed one night and woke up with the conviction that this is what he must do to serve the Lord. He packed a knapsack and set out. I understood this to have commenced two years ago.

Alvaro has a spirit filled countenance, his faith practically radiates. He walks from village to village with just his small knapsack and his Bible. When I met him, he, a solo missionary immediately starting offering study aids for me to share with my congregation!

This man is traveling as Jesus instructed and is not sponsored by anyone other than the Holy Spirit. Yet this humble man could offer me resources!!
Praise the Lord for experiences like this where we can see men and women of faith in action. Saints taking those important steps of faith, trusting in the Lord to provide, leaving worldly concerns behind and stepping out in faith.

It makes me really wonder about my own priorities, here we are planning how we will build our new church building and Alvaro does not even have a roof over him most nights. We pride ourselves in our humility, (We have elected to build ourselves, to the point of making our own blocks by hand), and Alvareo walks by with his threadbare sandals, his torn pants, his aincient knapsack and his dogeared and tattered Bible and he offers us resources!!  
Praise the Lord!!!! It is time to stop complaining and start loving!!

Join me in prayer for Alvaro and his mission.

The very existence of so many fragmented Christian groups is a strong indication that you can defend almost any position with isolated verses of scripture.

As to "sound" preaching, I lean toward reading an extended passage of scripture and trying to discover how this affected the first readers (the intended audience). A little more work and I can determine why a letter was written, what situation the writer was trying to develop, encourage, change or halt, and what principle that exemplified that might be relevant to me today.  It takes a lot of work, and is always changing slightly, but I think it's a more reliable approach than "it says it, so do it" although that one is often the case too.

A classic example is footwashing, a practice specifically enjoined by Jesus and practiced by the early Christians that we have completely sidestepped because we have discovered the principle behind the practice and now encourage that instead. Same thing with holy kiss and raising holy hands in prayer. Nothing wrong with the physical, just don't let it replace the spiritual.

I heard one brother say that you have 'thinkers' and 'feelers'. Thinkers focus on facts and commands and practices, while feelers focus on principles and values. Thinkers think feelers are led by their emotions and neglect the truth. Feelers think thinkers nitpick and divide over details and completely miss the point. Thinkers need feelers to help them keep things in perspective and help them from going off the deep end doctrinally. Feelers need thinkers to help them stay on the path and help them from going off the deep end doctrinally.

These, I think, are two critical elements in sound preaching: thinking and feeling.

Marc,

I hope that we're just both pessimists, and that the situation is not so bad as it sometimes seems (remember Elijah in his moment of dejection in the wilderness). Hopefully the phrase in Scripture, "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge," (Hosea 4:6) does not apply to the church entering the 21st century...

I am under the impression that, "yes", there is a general decline in people's willingness to read and study the Bible on their own. I see this most clearly both in the way that people approach doctrinal issues, and matters that are probably opinion. It manifests itself in the lack of Scriptural foundation for doctrine and opinion.

For example, read the posts in the Theology section. In many cases a topic is discussed that the Bible speaks about, but one is hard-pressed to find any Scripture references in the posts that address the issue. Posts say, "I think", or "I believe", but then fail to support those assertions with the Bible.

The sad thing is that we can know the right way. David wrote beautifully in the Psalms, such thoughts as "Thy Word is a lamp to my feet, and a light to my path," and "Oh how I love Thy law, it is my meditation all of the day". Jesus obviously knew the Word inside and out. He answered temptation with Scripture, He answered questions with Scripture - cases such as his response to a question about divorce, and another dealing with the Sadducees and the resurrection, for example.

Get that Bible out and read, study, meditate / ponder / think upon, memorize...

Larry Skipper

Thanks.  Seems some mornings dialog is easy, and on other mornings, any question is met by a long period of silence.  My separation from my teen/young adult class was accompanied with the complaint that I expected too much from them and asked too many questions, so I am a bit wary of pressing too hard at the moment, and in this too, am trying to find the right balance.  Two of the past three weeks I have gotten enough participation from the audience that we have gone wildly off-subject, and I honestly think these have been the best classes, because we have discussed what the class-members were interested in discussing.

Kind of an off-kilter note here:  I honestly believe that my current class would be better if the lighting were better.  We meet upstairs in the poorest-lit building I have ever been in (and the lighting has actually improved since I've been there).  The lighting makes it hard to make eye contact, and even at times makes it difficult for people to follow along in their Bibles.  Not long ago, I found an intersting link on this subject:  Some Little Things That Make a Big Difference (http://webminister.com/growth01/plan0016.htm)

Hi,
I am definitely not against expository, verse by verse preaching, and do some of this myself. But most on this thread seem to define expository preaching as biblical preaching. I disagree with that entirely. Please show one example in the New Testament of an expository sermon by Jesus, Paul, etc... I can save you some time -- there are none! Jesus preached mainly in a narrative style, with parables (illustrations concerning everyday life). If that's good enough for Jesus, shouldn't it be good enough for modern preachers? Just a few thoughts.

IHS,
Barry

Charles,
I know you didn't ask me, but I feel a need to comment anyway :p Repentance and Baptism are NOT a part of the Gospel. You are correct, they are a response to the Gospel message. Paul clearly defines what constitutes the Gospel:

Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. {2} By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. {3} For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, {4} that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)  

In addition, Paul makes a direct distinction between baptism and the Gospel:

For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel--not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. (1 Corinthians 1:17).

Is someone teaching that baptism and repentance are part of the Gospel rather than a response to it?

IHS,
Barry

Are you guys, talking about preachers or elders?  I thought pastor(shepherd) was another term for elder rather than a preacher.

Barry

I understand your sensibility and I did not intend to cause this direction in the thread when I posted my original exhortation. My intent was to point out that the congregation has a responsibility to the pulpit as well and just waiting around for the search committee to find a preacher is not enough.

I am a pulpit minister answering the calling of my Lord. In my country, few of our pulpit ministers are professionals. Many are working men who dedicate their spare time to filling the pulpit. A few are sustained by foreign congregations.

To you I would say this. To labour 60-80 hours a week for our Lord is a joy, a priviledge and an honour. My pay for this is the joy of serving my Lord and the treasures I am laying up in heaven.

To those who were so quick to defame pastors, I would say this. Try filling the pulpit and realize the overwhelming responsibility that comes with it. No we are not all skilled orators, my congregation struggles a times to even understand what their foreign preacher is even saying with my horrible accent. No we are not all enlightened theologists, we spend many hours on our knees praying for guidance from our Lord. The potential to mislead our flock is frightening. No we are not all Biblical historians, we sometimes struggle for days to find the answers which will put a passage in proper historical perspective. No we are not all trained psycologists or social workers. At times we are repulsed by the injustices of man to his brother. No we are not perfect. I was not born in a manger and I doubt I will die on a cross. I make mistakes, I err. I would hope when I do that I err on the side of love and grace.

But when I do err, I do so try to do so innocently without malicious intent and I trust in our Lord Jesus Christ to first forgive me my errors and second to correct any wrong I have committed. I also expect my congregation to bring my errors to me in love and concern so I may be aware of them, (You see like so many I am quite blind to my own errors), not to engage in gossip and rumors about their preacher.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (seekr @ Mar. 11 2002,2:43)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Yes Patricia, it is well said. But I think my point is escaping some of you. We are ALL the congregation, with Jesus as the head. We ALL have a responsibility to one another with love as the law. There is no heiarchy other then our Lord. I do not meet in any of the organizations as that is how I view them--organizations. But I also know my brothers and sisters are in them. Am I able to serve without being in a building with the label "church"? Do others minister to me and I to them without meeting on Sunday? Did Paul consider himself set apart from the congregation or set apart from the world? His leadership was just serving and our perception of leadership is to set us above the crowd with the answers when we are ALL taught by the Lord and can share with one another what God has revealed to each of us. And yes, there are different ministries and gifts we are called to with Jesus as the head. Paul said he considerd the apostles as last in the procession because that is how he was treated. Kind of like sweeping up the mess left behind from our erring ways. Do I know all? Do I need to learn from you? I know I need you as much as you need me. We know we are disciples by the love we have for one another, not our preaching style or our knowledge or even our faith is considered anything if we don't have love.

seekr[/quote]
Sometimes I wonder if "the building labeled church" isn't one of our major problems.

At a minimum, we meet once a month on the beach under the palms. Never has one of these services in the sun failed to bring in at least one more student .  It also seems to unite us in a way that I cannot describe.

Every three months all congregations in our state meet for a service. When it is our turn to host, to the beach we go. These services in the sun allow the people of the village to see us and know us. It is rather hard to see us when we are locked away behind stone walls.

Seekr, we are the church, you and I and the rest as well. Not some cold pile of mortar and stone. How we may choose to meet differs from person to person, congregation to congregation, state to state, country to country. How we choose to worship differs as well. Some sing, some play instruments, some clap while they sing.  But our Lord hears all of us, each and every single one of us.

Praise the Lord.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (patriciaredstone @ Mar. 12 2002,03:28)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Yes Patricia, it is well said. But I think my point is escaping some of you. We are ALL the congregation, with Jesus as the head. We ALL have a responsibility to one another with love as the law. There is no heiarchy other then our Lord. I do not meet in any of the organizations as that is how I view them--organizations. But I also know my brothers and sisters are in them. Am I able to serve without being in a building with the label "church"? Do others minister to me and I to them without meeting on Sunday? Did Paul consider himself set apart from the congregation or set apart from the world? His leadership was just serving and our perception of leadership is to set us above the crowd with the answers when we are ALL taught by the Lord and can share with one another what God has revealed to each of us. And yes, there are different ministries and gifts we are called to with Jesus as the head. Paul said he considerd the apostles as last in the procession because that is how he was treated. Kind of like sweeping up the mess left behind from our erring ways. Do I know all? Do I need to learn from you? I know I need you as much as you need me. We know we are disciples by the love we have for one another, not our preaching style or our knowledge or even our faith is considered anything if we don't have love.

seekr[/quote]
Seeker,

You are talking restoration here! Some call it Radical Restoration after the new book by F. LaGard Smith. Many members of the Church of Christ are giving up on the conventional mainstream church and starting the restoration movement afresh (radical restoration is really just a nice way to say iconoclast.) Still, I think it is a wonderful new evolution for the church of Christ. I wish the instigator was someone else, though. I have to wonder if Smith, (who holds strongly to traditional gender roles in the church and in the home) is not organizing a mass exit just as women are migrating from "outside the camp" to the center of church activites. There is website in the making, I think. You might key in Radical Restoraion and see what comes up.[/quote]
I fail to see where seekr is talking "radical restoration". Why must we label him?

This idea of recognizing churches with the most baptisms is all wrong.  Baptisms are something we should be thankful for, not proud of.  It is God's work, not ours. He just uses us.  Where is the humility, not pride?

Thank you for the comments on not being age eligible for certain classes.  My husband and I fit into more than one group.  We are always the youngest in the parents of high schoolers groups.  We also fit into the schoolage kids group and the pre-schooler group.  This also means we have to be of service in all 3 kids groups, not to mention mens and womens groups.  We are also not immature christians being "lifers".  We try to hit classes for all our groups, but it is hard sometimes.  I like the variety, but sometimes seems like too much variety.  We are in one class right now that has an age range of late 20's-early 60's.  It is the best class of them all, we discussone book at a time for a number of weeks, alternating between an OT and NT book.
I do understand and then do not understand all the age classifications.
Susie

How is it we try to  make so many things happen during a congregational worship period? We try and cram an incredible number of experiences into that one short period, when perhaps it would be a good time "to be still and know I am God." If you have to make it happen, you will cheat sooner or later, but if God is seen as the One who makes it happen, you can relax and leave the results with Him. I see congregational worship experience as a supplement to the main activity I  have as a Christian, that is worshipping and admiring God on a daily basis. When the only worship you experience takes place on a Sunday morning, no wonder you have to stuff so much into it.
It's kind of like traveling to California from Alabama. I don't have to order you to stop at gas stations, for if you want to get there you will. We shouldn't have to be ordered to attend worship but that has become a major concern of many ministers. Perhaps it's the old bottom line theology again. But stopping at gas stations is not the main reason for your trip, getting to California is! God knew we would need some time with our Christian family and in corporately recognizing our need for Him in order to make the journey to heaven, but the congregational worship period is not the be-all and end-all of the Christian journey. It is to help in that journey, not be that journey.

Bob,

I know you did not say this for applause. Nevertheless, I applaud you for maintaining a sense of integrity and dignity to the profession of preaching. I do not sense that your maturity is entirely a response to your years. All of my favorite preachers are from your generation. And without waxing sentimental about the good ol' days, most young ministers do seem to be heavy on the cheerleading and light on tact and knowledge. I don't see this happening in the Episcopal, Lutheran and Catholic churches. The young ministers in those churches are more accessible to me. They do not seem to be veiled in the trappings of hype and style. Is it just me, or do you see a trend in our formal preacher training schools to turn out marketing strategists more than genuine preachers?

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (seekr @ Mar. 14 2002,1:46)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]i absolutely agree with you, Patricia, as I, sometimes, in joy, showed others what God had been showing me and was looked at blankly with a lot of the same comments or the other person agreed just to placate me. And I have had the pastor's ear in the past and taught various studies and been involved in multiple ministries--but I feel like Paul did when he gave his list of "accomplishments". As much as I loved God, I was caught up in the program, I was deeply entrenched in what I thought was pleasing to God. There have been times of confrontation and being called on the carpet, for not following THEIR "rules" not His. I have been disfellowshipped, because of hearing from God and even given a choice--Him or them. I could (not really) have stayed but the freedom I have found while still being ostracized, is worth the cost. And it is a common thing to happen for followers. I love God's church--not the organization--but His people. It is okay to be blind at times in our walk, Jesus said we were not guilty if we were blind, only if we claim we see. I cannot see without Him showing me. My nature always wants the applause. Still working out my salvation...

seekr[/quote]
Seeker,

The leadership is surprised and/or caught off guard when an individual actually matures spiritually beyond what we call "the norm." The leadership doesn't have a clue what to do with the soul who evolves faster and/or differently than the forecast so he becomes a freak of the community. He is usually not taken seriously because his thoughts and opinions are for the most part only functional outside of the "normal" perimeters we have established. And truly, it is unrealistic to expect the community to expand its bounderies to meet one mustang soul.

I have known several mustang souls who have been more or less driven away. All of them have gone on to do good work. One woman is a pastor on a medical mission ship. One of the best Bible school teachers I ever had was chased away for challenging some of our cherished traditions ... he started a community church. Another very missionary minded young man joined the Catholic church and last I heard was preparing to take his vows for the priesthood. He was very interested in inner-city missions. His young enthusiam ran into the wall of practicality, fear and concern in all the wrong places. I have many stories like these as I am sure you do too. But I have never known one of these mustang souls to be lost in the conflict. They circle the perimeters of the church until they are nearly starved. When they see that the corral doors are simply not going to open for them, they move on. But it is so sad to see these beautiful souls go.

patricia, I appreciate your latest post. This is a tough topic in some ways, and I was thinking of the individual more than the church. Of course, denial and failing to face up to horror is inexcusable. I am trying to get past some damaging events that have happened to me (and I know many others as well). I do not want to be a pollyanna and live in denial; as "It never really happened, or it was probably my fault." No! These events serious angered me, but I want to use that anger as fuel to escape the bog of victimhood, rather than allowing the anger to rob me of my joy in Christ.
Of course, I do not forget these experiences to the point of falling right back into the same old trap. I would never go to some abuser and ask him to abuse me all over again. I don't need to be a professional victim. I also cannot afford to be naive about abusive churches. We must, as Paul did, call a Corinth a Corinth, and the Galatians must still be confronted on their legalism. Years ago I did a retreat and it was on the Book of Colossians. After two or three lessons, the preacher approached me and said; "We are disappointed. We thought you would spend some time telling us how awful the legalistic churches of Christ are." I tried to point out that the experience under legalism is horrendous, as I believe legalism is a criminal doctine, and I felt we could discuss our pain, if that was what was needed, but at some point we needed to get on with our lives. There is a tension here, and it is significant. Can we get on with our lives, reclaim our joy and still be vigilant and aware of the spiritual abusers? I am searching for some balance here. Do you have any insights that will be helpful?

patricia, great insight on this question. In our area there are few qualified sexual addiction counselors and plenty of sexual addicts. On the news today the Attorney General announced an ongoing STING operation on Internet Child Pornography, and sure enough some clergy have been arrested. Is there just more of this stuff than ever, or is it simply being identified and labeled? Fussing from the pulpit does not seem to help, so the Holy Spirit really needs to help us with this problem, both with insight and attentiveness.

Booty,

From what I can tell -- given the limitations of this venue -- you are a dear man with a good heart, but you presume too much about my heart and my life of prayer. But then, maybe I am being presumptuous too. How can I correct whatever I communicated to give you the impression that I do not pray for the molestors or believe that they deserve forgivness? Of course I do. Not only do I pray for them, but I also pray for those they have victimised, for their parents, wives and chidren. Still, molestors and rapists that are by all appearances repentant and that are welcomed back into fellowship should not be given full freedom of movement in the church. They should be monitored and given perimeters which are strictly overseen by the leaders, and the members (particularly at-risk members) should be given full disclosure of potential danger.

Patricia, what an incredibly sad story. This is a direction a Bible sermon needs to take once in a while. That is, what horrible evil can be committed from not having a stewardship of the tongue. I would take my text from James, obviously. This nastiness you  mentioned reminded me of an Inquisition where the game is to destroy the other person any way you can, and the best way is to use "spiritual" concerns in an evil way. We had a similar experience in Florence not too many years ago. For the first time in quite a while there was a lot of cooperation between churches on a citywide project. Two women (sorry to say) decided that some of the national leadership were tainted by New Age ideas, though there was scant if any proof of this. Anyway, to  make a short story long, they embarked on a virulent crusade to wreck the project and succeeded admirably!  Unfortunately, there always seem to be plenty of gullible Christians who will believe about any nasty rumor that comes along, and I guess that's why Satan is so adept at inspiring gossipers-the whole business is a masterpiece of destruction! If I as a believer will resist that tempting gossip and investigate the story, letting it stop with me, rather than  mindlessly repeating it, perhaps many good people and many good projects could be salvaged.

Booty, Thank you for sharing Alvaro with us.

Charlie,
Well said!
I am primarily a "thinker", my wife is primarily a "feeler".  Bible discussions between us are mutually edifying.
I don't want to imply that men and women always fall into those camps the same way.
I attend a regular Wednesday night Men's bible study and I would say the group is pretty evenly split between "thinkers" and "feelers".  We take one book of the bible at a time and spend several months reading through and discussing it.  This helps us "thinkers" get a feel for the overall message and it helps the "feelers" pay attention to some of the details.
I prefer this style of preaching also.  I much prefer a preacher who takes a large passage of scripture and spends several weeks working his way through it to the ones who choose a topic and then quote various isolated verses to support that idea. I often have trouble keeping up because I have a tendency to look up every passage quoted and read the surrounding text for context. (Although I have heard some very good and convicting messages preached that way - it takes a very knowledgeable and gifted preacher to make it work.....At least for me.)

Thanks to Nicholas for starting this thread.  I'm looking forward to hearing others' opinions.

Richard

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (marc @ Feb. 17 2002,1:41)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][/quote]
Good Question Marc

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]So, how do we find the right balance?  How do we get deep enough into scripture to apply it to our lives without losing the original meaning or becoming so in-depth we lose our audience?  Any ideas?[/quote]

I think the best way to do this is to teach with an open dialouge style.  I often wish that teachers would anticipate
and ask good questions.  Try to think like your audience.  It's always great when someone after class can say "I was thinking that very same question".  As for that level of depth, a phrase by phrase approach works well for me in my studies.  Word study is important but be careful with it because no word is an "island"  As long as questions are challenging and revelant, the audience will not have to use toothpicks to prop up their eyelids.

Nicholas........saved by grace

I have followed all the messages in this discussion, and as I taught expository preaching at Lipscomb U one year, I an convinced the writers are putting their fingers on a real concern.  If we confine ourselves to topical preaching we think we are meeting people's needs and thus our sermons will be more popular and listenable. Yet, do we know our real needs?  We may thing we do, but only God has the master view of reality. So if we discipline ourselves to preach and teach in a lively expository manner (always so much more work!) then the Word will enlighten us on our real needs.  The problem is that felt needs in most congregations dominate the agenda, rather than having an openness to God's ability to employ the Holy Spirit in helping us identify our deeper needs.

Barry, I find myself in agreement with you that either sermon type can be biblical as long as the thrust and content emerge to encounter the listeners with a Word from God. I usually preach through books, such as John, but when the occasion demands will use a topical sermon. When I do preach topically, I will often go to a passage or two that seem to cover the topic and work from it. I suppose I have heard so many MOTHER type sermons that I cringe a bit. But, as my old Professor at Lipscomb, Dr. Baxter used to say; "I do not listen to sermons as a professor of Speech might with a ready critique at hand. I try to hear something that will challenge me and benefit me." His attitude was top notch, and I have been blessed by some sermons that probably would get an F in Sermon Prep class but got an A in terms of touching the heart. On the other hand, I have heard some real orations that left me cold. Perhaps that was totally my fault, but as my old professor at LSU, Dr. Braden used to say, "If you communicate one solid idea to 20% of your audience you have had a tremendous success!" One thing I have learned about preaching is that it is a most humbling experience.

Booty

How right you are! I tell others that the "pastor" is probably the man sweeping up after services as opposed to the "postulator" up front. We just have such a set perspective of what pastor means and think it's the title we earn instead of the call and life we live, in service to Him.

seekr

Looks like I touched a nerve again. Sorry. I guess I assumed that more individuals here would have had my experience. I certainly do not intend to implicate all preachers. I appreciate what one poster said earlier in this thread "preaching is a lesson in humility." This is the appropriate attitude of a servant dedicated to the Master and not to himself. Unfortunately, I see self-centered preaching way too often. Preaching for some is a heady experience... a rush. I have even heard preachers describe preaching in those terms. To mention their names would be cruel and humiliating but I have seen it on every level. In the last year, one preacher who ministered in our community for 30 years was discoverd to be a rather vigorous philanderer. But I have also seen the rarity. The servant preacher. The one who is called to the vocation by the Master, not his ego. I will name one. The late William Reeves. Another was Brian McQuiddy. They were never asked to speak at lectureships or to go on tour, but they knew the heart of God and were able to communicate it well.

Seeker,

The trap of pride created by the system IS the problem. It is, in my opinion, the problem that deters so many from the church. But societies have always dealt with the priest/ shaman issue and it's dual power to heal and kill the soul. This is why distance was placed between the "holy" ones and the flock. We symbolise this safe distance with the pulpit. Other cultures kept their holy men in the mountain, the desert, the forest, some cultures had their holy not cut their hair or their fingernails. This set them apart ... put distance between the holy and the mundane. They had them dress in animal skins and eat a starvation diet. They only made appearances at specific times ordained by the traditions of the culture. I believe these deprecating social rules are responses to the human tendency to unwittingly exalt the executors of the holy rituals.

I have seen people be very cruel and even vicious to ministers. I think they are responding to the deeper tendency to revere him. The church will always struggle with this dynamic. Ministers must be educated ... self-aware ... sensitive to the ongoing psycological drama of what to do with the holy men and women.

If church leaders bury their heads in the sand to the reality that some of their members are gathering stones to build altars to the minister while others are gathering stones to throw at the minister ... no progress will be made.

Only when leaders understand that while we deal with the deep spiritual needs of the soul before the throne of God all of the elements are also in place for the deep psycological drama of "Holy Man meets Mundane Men" and all of the fear, jealousy, and conventions that come with it. Good, strong leaders will be aware. In fact, churches of Christ have always been a bit more aware of this dynamic than most other Christian denominations. Some churches of Christ demonstrate that they are aware of the problem by not givign the minister a special title, special clothing or by not paying him. However these policies are not always borne out of awarness but, rather out of and adherrance to regressive social customs.

What do we do about it? How do we integrate the minister into the community and protect the community from his unique spiritual power? I suggest we talk. I suggest we stand up and take a look at the elephant in the living room and acknowledge its presence and stop trying to communicate around it. Denial is the first culprit. Some will want to revere the minister and set him apart by exalting his vocation as more holy than the vocations of others. Others will want to mark him and set him apart by sending him into the wilderness dirty and unfed until the moment makes his presence necessary. There is another category that fears his spirtual power will attract demons which will infect the group. These too, put distance between themselves and the ministers.

patriciaredstone, in answer to your question about younger preachers. Of course, one should not generalize about a whole class of persons. I have seen many dedicated young proclaimers who are in love with the Good News and want only to share it. On the other hand, as one of my friends who is an excellent elder told me; "In years past our potential ministers asked us what our program was, now they mostly ask what our package is." I hope this is not typical, and perhaps it is not. I think there is more emphasis placed on success as a bottom line today than ever before. This is dangerous, as Bonhoeffer said; "To the one in love with success, the figure of the Crucified is an enigma." Yet, bottom line theology is more prevalent than we can imagine. Who can fill the pews, jack up the attendance, and use the baptistry the most seems to be popular in many areas. I once made a little joke to a group so oriented, I asked them if they could invite any Bible character to speak at their next seminar, which they would pick; Jonah or Jeremiah? They laughed, but I believe they would have picked Jonah. "Come hear the man who converted a whole City!"  Actually, either Jonah or the Samaritan woman (John 4) holds the record for sheer number of people becoming interested in God in a single day. (My parody does not permit me to mention Peter in Acts 2 at this time). We couldn't invite the Samaritan Woman to speak, and Jeremiah actually preached a sermon on the "Temple of the Lord" that seemed to hurt attendance badly, so we will have to go with Jonah in spite of his bad attitude and ungracious spirit. This does seem to be a trend that is more scary than legalism. I hope I am wrong.

Nicholas, what I meant by a cheerleader message is that one of our leaders was heavily influenced by a commercial model of church leadership in which the bottom line was the most important consideration. He expected sermons to be pep talks exhorting people to go out and make more "sales." (not real sales of course, but the sort of approach one would use if one were selling a product.) He was supported in this by another leader with a deep commitment to another model of leadership which I will style as "military." The sermons desired were similar to the ones mentioned above, except there was to be a commitment to the system rather than to Christ. This meant textual sermons were not valued as they were viewed as demanding too much from the congregation which apparently needed heavy-handed fussing and lots of "oughts, musts and shoulds." I hope this gives you some insight into what I meant.

Our Bible study last night was 1 short of our entire congregation and afterwards we stopped off to see him where he was visiting with his mother in the hospital. Our ages ranged from our youngest member, (And co-song leader), 11, to our oldest member at 60.

The only real segregation we do is on Thursdays when the men do meet seperately from the women, (and that gender line is frequently crossed as well). The reason for the difference is simply the men enjoy "Flying in the Word" a free ranging expository study, while the women prefer a more structured guided study. As I said though, the gender line is crossed often or at times a point may be brought over from the guided study looking for more research.

We have no specific "Training Requirements" to evangilize, nor for that matter lead the studies. Our youngest member, Jesuscito, has lead discussions. We all evangelize any chance we get.

We do rejoice in the number of baptisms we are blessed with, but as we do not report to anyone other than our Lord Jesus Christ, we are not trying to impress anyone with numbers. Once baptized, the new brother or sister is quickly brought into the work. Our conviction is the Lord saw fit to call them and accept them into the body of the church, they are therefore His servants and to be used to the glory of His name. One "New" convert brought in two more the very next day. Personally I am in awe of their spiritual growth and maturity, the Spirit has filled them.

I truly believe that all too often we trust in the devices and systems of men when we should be trusting in our Lord. He who sent forth His disciples without purse or food, who has counted each of the few hairs on my head, He will lead, guide and protect me.

Praise the Lord!

A few years back there was an interesting debate that went on in churches of Christ. As I remember it, some persons complained (negatively) of the negativity they saw in others. Then a debate started on what percentage of passages in the NT were negative and which were positive. Of course, we had lots of citations from 1st and 2nd Corinthians, and the Book of Revelation, Hebrews, etc. where there are critiques of activities that are wrong. My own take on this discussion board is that it is not a place to engage in cynical denunciations but to reflect with thoughtful persons on the great ideas of Christianity. When we encounter some baffling situation and discuss it, it is not to try and enlist sympathy, but to try and understand the process better. As far as my own situation with various dysfunctional models of leadership, I have first looked to  make sure I was not a controller, and then have attempted to discuss the problem with those involved. The problem with controllers, in my experience, is that they will do whatever they have to do to shut you up. Whether it is guilt-tripping you, as in "How could you ever believe I would control anybody?" Or, whether it is telling you that you are mistaken.
Years ago I confronted the elders and evangelist at the then CrossRoads church in Gainesville, Fl. They have since moved from that position. But, at that meeting, they listened politely and then dismissed my concerns saying; "Well, forget all that, what we need is your support." But, that was the problem. I could not offer my support to what I perceived to be a manipulative, demeaning distortion of the gospel. The Lord knows I wish everyone, including myself, was truly in perfect accord with the will of God. Until then, let us not be afraid to "be angry and sin not" as the Apostle says in Eph. All the controllers need to carry out their plans is to shut up those who value Bible ideals.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Booty @ Mar. 16 2002,05:27)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]The very thought of child abuse makes my skin crawl. Down here abusers do not survive prison. Machisimo demands their extermination.

But now I have a question, Patricia you obviously are in prayer for the abused children and I join you. Will you join me in prayer for the abusers? Will you go visit the ones in prison and witness to them of our Lord's love and forgiveness? They and their fellow abuser were in the congregation, they are your brothers in the faith. Do they not deserve our prayers just as any other lost sheep?

Or do they simply serve as examples so your horror story might be more horrible than mine? The Lord loves you Patricia and so do I, relax in His perfect love and learn to love others including your enemies and difficult as it is, child abusers as well.

Dios te bendiga,
Booty[/quote]
Booty,

Your concern for the children and the child molesters is a wonderful response, born out of the Christian's unique work and passion for reconcilliation and redemption.

Your response also seems to weigh of suspicion that I might be exploiting my experience for attention. This response, I believe, is a complicated misapplication of the Christlike need for reconcilliation and redemption. This was the same logic which was used by those who forgave, embraced and welcomed the molestor back into fellowship and chastised me for "bringing up the past."

Churches are entering a new era. Things that were swept under the carpet will be brought into the light. This dirty work will be done by the world if it is not done by the church. I think this new era will be the era of listening. Good leaders will not hush up things just because they are unpleasant. Skill in discernment is most important these days. Leadership and Christianity Today Magazines reveal that sexual addiction among preachers is an increasing problem. I think it is interesting that two sexually addicted ministers I have known were exceptionally hard on women in their sermons. Accusing the women of the church with being obcessed with appearance ... dressing suggestively ... being a negative influence on our husband's spirituality through our worldliness ... It made so much sense when both of these men were discovered.

No. I do not visit the molestors. Neither do I intend to visit them. I will leave that work to the men. I do visit girls in juvinile dentention though.

I am familiar with a situation in a good church where a young married man (who had been sexually abused as a child) kept going to the summer encampment and asking to be placed in a position of leadership with a group of ten year old boys. He had no known history of any offenses, was married, as I say, with children. So, he was given this post. Sure enough on the 3rd day of camp some of the boys came to the Head Counselor and complained of some serious abuse. At that point, chaos broke out, and the leadership immediately removed him and sent him home, where the police arrested him. He was sentenced to three years. The elders and ministers spent countless hours with the parents and even paid for whatever counseling the parents felt was needed for themselves or their children. Only two or three parents left this church. After his release the young man came back to the congregation, said he was repentant and wanted to be forgiven. The elders accepted him, provided he would agree to 1 Never be alone in the company of a child, 2 Never work in the youth program 3 Never go into the men's restroom without a male companion agreed to by the elders. 4 Accept sexual addiction counseling. There may have been other conditions, but he agreed to these. It has been more than ten years and he has not repeated his offense. He agreed to the conditions and has abided by them. I am sure he must challenge this temptation every day of his life. On another note, this problem is so bad that LaRue Moss, a counselor at Woodmont Hills church in Nashville would often offer seminars on the topic for church leaders. She brought in the Lutheran minister, Mark Laaser(ck spelling) who wrote the book, The Secret Sin about sexual addictions. I learned from this seminar that the more rigid and legalistic a congregation is the more apt it is to have secret sins of sexual addiction among its leaders. What a tough and demanding area for leaders to have to deal with!

Bob,

Thanks for maneuvering us back to the discussion of "sound biblical preaching." Pedophilia is a disaterous sin and should be cautiously contained by a confessional and forgiving church. This is, in my opinion, what the Christian witness to the world is all about.

I could compare gossip and pedophilia -- in numbers of individuals I have seen damaged by the two -- and gossip would definately come out on top. In fact, I have seen one of the largest churches in our town -- a charismatic church -- torn down to nothing by gossip about a suspected pedophile. The man, after what seemed two or three years of hearings, was found innocent. This man was a professional acquaintance of mine. It was so bad ... there were deaths brought on by stress! The whole catastrophe was on 20/20. Last year a local underground kind of newspaper did a "ten years later" story and disclosed that not a single apology was ever made to the man by his Christian community.

The preacher of this church was a very close friend. He did not survive it well. He died while having his "last supper" with his betrayers over a bowl of spaghetti at "The Olive Garden" restaurant!

I know this preacher had the best counsel available to him in the world -- and I'm sure he made use of it -- and still, he could not redeem the mess made by four couples. (There are still lawsuits in the courts over this affair.)  If the situation could have been saved, he was the man to do it. It was hopeless. What I learned from this situation is that sound biblical preaching is preventative. It is almost never a cure.

you are most welcome Sister. I know he warmed my heart and I know he warmed yours as well. Isn't the Lord wonderful!

Booty << Patricia from the first post of yours that I read I have seen pain so deep it forces me to shudder. >>

:0 Now Booty! You are one to accuse another of dramatics ...

<< Beloved sister I wish I could take this pain from you. I can not. He can. I have been praying steadily that He will as I have seen in you a deep intellect, considerable wisdom and a profound knowledge of the Word. >>

...but careful. I am beginning to enjoy the attention. ;)

Booty, I believe in prayer and I will take as many as you've got! I am not denying that I have pain, because indeed I do -- more than you know -- but it comes more in the person of a live-in 82 year-old southern belle mother-in-law who thinks she's sixteen. But, sorry! there I go again with another horror story ...

<< I just finished a book that I would love to share with you with your insights and your historical knowledge, but Patricia you are continually recounting one horror tale after another.>>

I don't see how my posts are interfering with your own, Booty. I am open to discussing anything that interests you, but history is not a specialty of mine -- I think Marc is the historian -- horror is my niche.

<< Yes I know you have had differences with the leadership of at least one congregation over a pedophile, but Patricia there is so much more to God's church and God's love. Not all leaderships are like the one or ones you have told us of. Some leaderships are so caring and grace filled they put you in awe of His Spirit in action. >>

Yes, I have seen and I acknowledge that there are some wonderful leaderships and some very horri...um, bad leaderships.

<< I do not mean weeping is a sin. But it is a victory for Satan, as the time we lose in weeping, is time we could spend witnessing for our Lord. >>

I do not believe that time weeping is ever lost, Booty. Sometimes, simply weeping with another is the best witness one could ever give. Satan is served by deception, lies and gossip, not by tears. The Hebrews believe that the Shekinah (the mystery of God) is best described as a distraught woman weeping over the death of her young husband. But those Jewish mystics were kind of hung up on horror ...  ;)

I have also heard convincing sermons that were topical.
My problem is that now I'm always wondering or questioning whether the prooftext being used is in context.  So instead of being fed by the teaching, I'm trying to read surrounding verses (quickly) :0  to get a full understanding.  Substained book by book, chapter by chapter, verse by verse teaching with occasional topical studies is the best route for any teacher, preacher, evangelist, etc...IMHO  

God Bless
Nicholas.......saved by grace

Taking a slight left turn here, any ideas on the best pacing for textual teaching?  Here's what I mean:

Last August I began teaching the book of Luke to and adult class.  In the past six months, we have covered the first fourteen chapters.  On the one hand, sometimes it seems as if we're moving through the book so slowly we will never finish; on the other hand, sometimes it seems as if we're moving too fast. There are so many more ideas in the text, so many more applications, so much more going on than we have time to discuss.

I have sat in adult classes where three weeks were taken to study a single verse.  Each word was discussed in detail.  I fell asleep.  I see a real danger in digging in so deeply that we lose the context of the scripture and lose what it meant to the original readers.  

So, how do we find the right balance?  How do we get deep enough into scripture to apply it to our lives without losing the original meaning or becoming so in-depth we lose our audience?  Any ideas?

hawkeye said
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]How do you make the connection between what it means and how it can be applied to our present day spiritual needs, or to our every day problems we experience?[/quote]

I think the best response to this question was given by nerdneh when he said
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]So if we discipline ourselves to preach and teach in a lively expository manner (always so much more work!) then the Word will enlighten us on our real needs[/quote].

There is indeed a danger of verse by verse preaching becoming stale.  However, I am convinced that this is the only way to mature Christians fully in the Word by the power of the Holy Spirit.  Another great, wonderful, marvelous benefit of this manner of preaching(teaching) is that the entire body of believers can follow a bible reading plan along with the pastor.  The reading in turn could be incorporated into the family devotionals and personal studies at home  :)

On a personal note, pray me and my family.  If you read my introduction, then you understand that I've got some decisions to make.

Nicholas.....saved by grace

Hi Bob,
I'm probably coming across like this is a more important to me than it really is. My only point was that there are different types of "biblical preaching". I have heard both expository and topical preaching that were biblical in that they did a good job of explaining Scripture and how it applies to our lives. I have also heard good narrative, inductive, etc..., preaching that was also biblical in this sense. I guess I'm just reacting to those that think expository preaching is the only "real" kind of preaching that honors God and His Word.

I'm going to be doing an expository series through Colossians myself in a couple of months, so I'm obviously not opposed to it. In my own ministry I used to preach only expository messages. Now I usually do a short topical series or two, then an expository series through a book of the Bible. It seems to add balance.

In Christ,
Barry
Coon Rapids Christian Church (http://www.coonrapidschristian.org)

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Booty @ Mar. 09 2002,08:25)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I appreciate preachers who do not exploit the pulpit by boring me or insisting that I take notes on the prepared handouts for a banal, sterotypic sermon ... But other than some wonderful teaching i have heard while visiting lectureships, that is all I have experienced for twenty years.

Last year, our church was looking for a new minister. The search committee -- as committees usually do -- put out a request for information that might lead to a new preacher. I suggested that we not hire a pulpit minister at all. Using our very large budget I demonstrated how our church could afford to hire a new speaker/lecturer each week. We could have the best of the best. College professors, authors, key-note speakers from the big lectureships. We already have three professional ministers on staff to oversee, evangelism, family activites and youth and singles. Counseling is handled by a professional Christian marriage and family therapist. So why settle for mediocrity when we can afford the best sermons money can buy? Of course this idea did not go over very well because it was unusual and so, we are stuck with the "usual."

But this idea is not new! I think the time for the "mule-back" preacher has returned! The preacher shortage is largely due to a competition with Christian universities. Men go to these schools intending to become ministers and find themselves choosing the security and intellectual/spiritual life of the academic community over the ministry. If we could find a way to entice these guys to be "mule back" preachers once a month or so, they could have their cake and eat it too![/quote]
As a suggestion, have you ever thought about filling your pulpit from within your congregation? I certainly have no intent of offending nor defaming any one, but I would like to comment that we have fallen victim to a paradigm which appears to dictate that a pulpit must be filled by a "Trained Preacher" with credentials etcetera. While many trained preachers are stalwarts in their faith and the Word, where is our trust in the Holy Spirit to lead us and guide us? Why cannot men of faith step forth from the congregation to fill an empty pulpit?  Is the pulpit such an onerous task that we must hire someone to fill it?  Or is the pulpit an opportunity to serve our Lord trusting in His grace to lead guide and direct us?

Is preaching a profession or is it a calling?[/quote]
Bill,

Yes, I have attended churches where the men take turns delivering a biblical message that we refer to as the sermon. It is usually a temporary period of time, while the church is waiting while a new preacher is being sought, or before a preacher arrives, or (in one memorable case) a trial period to see if our men can really pull it off. Always, there were some very wonderful and memorable sermons to emerge from these periods. From my experience, the reason more churches do not pursue this arrangement on a permanent basis is the revelation that preaching a good sermon requires a great deal of time and study. Also, the poor men usually try to imitate preaching styles they admire from preachers they have see over the years. This results in a great deal of self-consciousness and embarrassing awakwardness. Let's face it, preaching in America IS a profession. To be able to hold the attention of an audience is a gift that only rare individuals possess.

I don't like the American preaching style. The techniques, the formulas and the posturing bore me. I prefer to listen to a good teacher than a preacher. I'd rather hear a great lecture by a Christian archeologist about the fishing boats, fishing culture, and fishing communities in biblical times than an evangelistic sermon. I'd rather listen to an Old Testament scholar explain the temple to me than hear five or six sermons a year about how my sunday school attendance is not an elective.

I do believe the pulpit can equip, I just have not seen it happen very often. It is like television. I don't have a television. Not because television is a bad thing, but because television has not lived up to its promises. Television is a failed public experiment. Could it be better? Sure it could! Will it be? I seriously doubt it. Pulpit preaching is the same thing. It overestimates it's own value. People hold it as sacred when it is really only a convention of worship. It is not necessary in our church home. In its current condition it dulls our senses, wastes our time and demands our attention.

I am just a congregant trying to live my life for God.  I do not claim to understand all scripture.  I have been in church all my life and have heard many types of sermons and ministers.  I have heard my share of both topical and biblical.  I prefer the topical in sermons and think a heavier biblical study should be left for classes or small Bible studies.  I have a very high respect and regard for ministers and pray for mine daily. We have a wonderful minister at our church who is able to combine both somehow.  He is awesome at being apt for this style. He sticks to the topic but somehow is able to break an entire scriptures or scriptures down including the background and the Greek.  We have only been members here for a year, but I have learned more of the Bible within this year than all my 36 years combined. People who visit with us are in awe at his preaching.  I have never seen so much note taking in my life.

I prefer a fulltime minister as apposed to members of the church. I have only visited churches who used members only, but not everyone is blessed with the gift to preach. It should not be an effort for the listeners to understand. The speaker is definitely topical usually, but no depth to the sermon. Of course this is my opinion only.
Susie

Greetings Everyone,

In love, let me say that this thread was not[/i][/u] started by me to bash preachers.  The goal is to come away with an honest, practical way to reach those sitting in the pews and encourage one another.  True, I do believe some modifications should be made (e.g. making use of discussion groups after the message) but let's not throw out the dishes with the dishwater just yet.? :)


Nicholas......saved by grace

Very well said, very very well said.


But it's not an elephant, it's a parrot with a horrible ego.

Any group, whether they be ministers of the Word, or elders, or even government workers cannot be above criticism. That would be not only unhealthy but downright dangerous. What we should avoid is criticizing someone because they are a preacher or a pastor or both. Destructive criticism says more about the critic than the object of their wrath. I regret to say that sustained criticism drives me into a people-pleasing mode, or into a reactionary mode. Neither of these behaviors equips me to go on serving the Lord and his people. I have found the remarks in this discussion to be helpful personally and I do not sense that anyone is "out to get" anyone else. At least I pray this is true in my case at least.

Back to "preaching". In the book by Oswald Chambers called "The Love of God", he says--"The way of God's life manifests itself in joy is in peace which has no desire for praise. When a man delivers a message that he knows is the message of God, the witness to the fulfillment of the created purpose is given instantly.The peace of God settles down, and the man cares for neither praise nor blame from anyone.......One danger is to go off in work, and another danger is to go off on doctrine. Doctrine is the mere statement of the life of God for the purpose of teaching. Always beware of following your own convictions in doctrine instead of following the life of God."
Isn't that powerful? Isn't that what preaching is--just leaning into the Spirit and saying what God has absolutely laid on our hearts? We talk of "style" when it should probably just be "Spirit".

seekr

I'm not sure what age group I should teach or join in.

The intent is very good, the execution though tends to leave people either in a class where they don't socially fit due to being in a different stage of life or in one that does not fit their spiritual needs.

I'm currently trying to put together two sets of class material one for a 13 week class on Paul and the other a class that looks at the scriptural basis of songs we use and hopefully our worship leader or a praise team member will co-teach the class and will help us learn new songs as well.

If I ever get to teach them then I want to do the Bible in a year again except this time using the material Rubel Shelly wrote for that class.

i absolutely agree with you, Patricia, as I, sometimes, in joy, showed others what God had been showing me and was looked at blankly with a lot of the same comments or the other person agreed just to placate me. And I have had the pastor's ear in the past and taught various studies and been involved in multiple ministries--but I feel like Paul did when he gave his list of "accomplishments". As much as I loved God, I was caught up in the program, I was deeply entrenched in what I thought was pleasing to God. There have been times of confrontation and being called on the carpet, for not following THEIR "rules" not His. I have been disfellowshipped, because of hearing from God and even given a choice--Him or them. I could (not really) have stayed but the freedom I have found while still being ostracized, is worth the cost. And it is a common thing to happen for followers. I love God's church--not the organization--but His people. It is okay to be blind at times in our walk, Jesus said we were not guilty if we were blind, only if we claim we see. I cannot see without Him showing me. My nature always wants the applause. Still working out my salvation...

seekr

Mike,

I, too, am in spiritual conflict about designating specific sins as more vile than others. We become like the world when we compartmentalise sin. But there are some practical reasons to seperate sinners who prey upon other sinners.

The church has always dealt with this problem. In the past it was usually hushed up. People were uninformed and/or unaware of the compulsion of pedophilia and rape and people were ignorant about the permanent psychological damage to victims. But every church I have been a member, I have been told by another woman not to be alone with brother so-and-so. The women have always had an underground warning system. But new laws and new awareness of pedophilia and rape appear to be taking these sinners out of the churches. The law has a job to protect children even if their parents and church communities do not. This is why the registered offender list is so readily available. There is talk of making it available to children on the internet. What do we do? How do we protect our children and meet our spiritual committment to the rapist and pedophile?

My suggestion is that some good members, with a heart and a vocational calling to be healing servants to this particular community of sinners, start a church for registered sex offenders. This would allow them to participate as fully as this specialised leadership allows.

As King Arthur says to his adulterous Queen in "Idylls of the King;" "I forgive you as Eternal God forgives..." The church stands on forgiveness, for it could not exist were God not gracious. The cross is our unity, for it is what we all need so desperately. Yet, (don't you hate that word "yet") we know forgiveness is not permission. Christ died for our sins, but he did not die to give us a carte blanche to go on sinning. Reconciliation also requires responsibility. The churches of my experience, to orient ourselves to where we are in this discussion, see child molestation as a major sin to be dealt with swiftly and effectively. They do not see gossip and other destructive speech as much of a problem, and yet I have seen more churches destroyed by gossips than by perverts.
Which would be more difficult, to forgive someone who molested your child,  or forgive someone who is systematically destroying your life and reputation by lies? I believe that forgiveness will be difficult in each area, and only God can get us to the point, by his love, where we can do this. The forgiven party should know, as part of their attitude of repentance that this is not permission to start the cycle of abuse all over again. Dios te bendiga.

Booty, appreciate your optimistic spirit which God uses to encourage us. I feel we must certainly rejoice with those who rejoice, but sometimes we must weep with those who weep. When spiritual frauds destroy innocent believers we must weep for the pain caused our brothers. We must also weep for hardness of heart and pray that God will help the one inflicting pain to realize what they are doing and turn from it. We must not dwell on it, or become trapped in it, but we must share it at some level. Of course, God is the only One who can feel the pain of the whole world (How that must be something only God can bear!)
With Paul sometimes we must say as he does in 2 Corinthians, "I want you to know brothers the depression that I endured to the point of despairing of staying alive..." But, thanks to prayer and God's deliverance he can say; "Thanks be to God who always leads us in triumphal procession...."
On the journey of our lives we have many mountains to cross and valleys to traverse, but our Guide is faithful. At no point in this process should we be motivated by self interest.
You may have read "Murder in the Cathedral" by T. S. Eliot which is a verse play about Thomas a Becket who was killed by the soldiers of King Henry II when Becket was the Archbishop of Canterbury. After enduring temptations to money and power, and other standard temptations, all of which Becket resists successfully, one knight comes to him and congratulates him on his faith. He tells him that he will become a famous martyr and that people will come far and wide just to pray at his tomb. Becket swells with pride for a moment, then catches himself and says; "The last temptation is the greatest treason, to do the right thing for the wrong reason."

Booty, the last thing I want you to feel is that I am trying to encourage you to weep. If you have reached a plane where this is not possible for you, I commend you. For me, alas, I am only too human. I do not know what it means when Jesus weeps over Jerusalem, or even why he shed tears, silent tears at the tomb of Lazarus, knowing in a few moments He would restore him to life. Perhaps it was seeing what death did to people He loved and his own fierce determination to stop death in its tracks.
As the Psalmist says, "weeping may endure for a night, but joy comes in the morning."This I believe, and I do not support staying in a weeping mode, but for me, it would be unrealistic and unfeeling to see some of the horrendous abuses and injustices I have witnessed and smile at them. Yes, you are right to encourage us to seize our joy and focus on our Eternity with the One who dries all tears. I believe in some situations a Christian must shed tears, but he or she will not always be weeping. Satan, at times, would like to see us smile at some things we should not smile at.

The very thought of child abuse makes my skin crawl. Down here abusers do not survive prison. Machisimo demands their extermination.

But now I have a question, Patricia you obviously are in prayer for the abused children and I join you. Will you join me in prayer for the abusers? Will you go visit the ones in prison and witness to them of our Lord's love and forgiveness? They and their fellow abuser were in the congregation, they are your brothers in the faith. Do they not deserve our prayers just as any other lost sheep?

Or do they simply serve as examples so your horror story might be more horrible than mine? The Lord loves you Patricia and so do I, relax in His perfect love and learn to love others including your enemies and difficult as it is, child abusers as well.

Dios te bendiga,
Booty

There can be a fine line between topical teaching and preaching and proof-texting (today is make-up-new-words-day).  I remember in years past marking ten or twenty unrelated passages with little bits of paper while preaching or teaching.  I didn't consider myself dishonest.  But over the years I've grown to believe that the truth can't be found that way. I  haven't turned away from topical studies entirely, but I do believe that when considering a passage in a topical study, a single verse doesn't cut it.  Now I'll try to read and discuss the context of the passage, and try to figure out just what was being said or done at the time.  As Jane said initially:

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]the scripture cannot mean anything different to us today than it meant to the audience to whom it was written[/quote]

I can't say I'm always successful, but I'm trying.  I see the term "recovering pharisee" used frequently, and I guess that's where I am.  I haven't quite got there yet, but I think I'm getting better.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I'm guilty of saying I believe or I think rather than quoting scripture.  I think part of this is due to the fact it at least has the appearance of proof-texting. Also as you begin to quote scripture the posts become quite long.  However, you have made a good point and I'll try harder in the futher to at least reference scripture.....



Bill[/quote]
Bill,

I don't think we need to *always*  quote the scripture in conversation.  In this forum type setting it is helpful, but in talking with unbelievers they receive God's message better if we don't stop every 5 min in conversation to say "Titus 2:3 says, "..." or whatever.  The concern is when someone says "I believe" or "I think" and it is obvious from what follows that they really are talking about their own thoughts, but placing them in the context of truth.  

Keeping with the topic of sound biblical preaching--I always get concerned if the preacher isn't providing scripture for me to think about, look up, etc. And I have heard whole sermons where the only scripture used might be a verse at the beginning.  Many times (speaking in personal experience only) such sermons pull said verse completely out of context.

When you say "I believe" or "I think",  is it followed by something true to God's thinking??  If so, don't worry about it.  The concern is for people who will defend their own "beliefs" and even argue them as truth,  as if they were scripture. ???  This is just a symptom of what we have been discussing here--the fact that people with the church seem to have less and less actual exposure to and understanding of scripture.

I get the impression that if I were to have a question about your "beliefs" or "thoughts" you would be able to tell me why you believe "x"--but there are so many who really don't have that follow through, or who follow through by lengthy argument and reasoning rather than giving me some scripture to consider.

:) This thread has given me a lot to think about also :)

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (charlie @ Feb. 11 2002,08:36)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]The very existence of so many fragmented Christian groups is a strong indication that you can defend almost any position with isolated verses of scripture.

As to "sound" preaching, I lean toward reading an extended passage of scripture and trying to discover how this affected the first readers (the intended audience). A little more work and I can determine why a letter was written, what situation the writer was trying to develop, encourage, change or halt, and what principle that exemplified that might be relevant to me today.  It takes a lot of work, and is always changing slightly, but I think it's a more reliable approach than "it says it, so do it" although that one is often the case too.

A classic example is footwashing, a practice specifically enjoined by Jesus and practiced by the early Christians that we have completely sidestepped because we have discovered the principle behind the practice and now encourage that instead. Same thing with holy kiss and raising holy hands in prayer. Nothing wrong with the physical, just don't let it replace the spiritual.

I heard one brother say that you have 'thinkers' and 'feelers'. Thinkers focus on facts and commands and practices, while feelers focus on principles and values. Thinkers think feelers are led by their emotions and neglect the truth. Feelers think thinkers nitpick and divide over details and completely miss the point. Thinkers need feelers to help them keep things in perspective and help them from going off the deep end doctrinally. Feelers need thinkers to help them stay on the path and help them from going off the deep end doctrinally.

These, I think, are two critical elements in sound preaching: thinking and feeling.[/quote]
I take it that a CoC sermon is very much about what particular passages of scripture means.  How do you make the
connection between what it means and how it can be applied to our present day spiritual needs, or to our every day problems we experience?  For example, the UMC is very good at trying to show the congregation how they can apply religious doctrine to their current needs and problems.  For example, if the message is addressing theft or adultery, then passages of the Bible are offered as advice on what the responsible behavior should be, and the preacher will sometimes try to point out the impact that such misbehavior has on other people.  In other words, we do more than read about it and talk about it, we get right down to where the rubber meets the road and try to apply it.

I wonder if caching a sermon in terms of what people in Biblical times thought and did is a very effective way of presenting the scripture.  The less experienced ones in the congregation will miss the point entirely, and those who are relativistic or close minded will not even get the connection.  I think the key to a good sermon is to deliver it in a simple and sincere manner that does not intimidate the meek or alienate those with a slightly different POV on religious doctrine.

Hi everyone,
The responses to this thread have been great.  It's good to realize that there are others concerned about the quality of preaching.  Don't misunderstand me.  I believe fully that it is God and God only who opens our hearts.  As one who rides the bench (not a pastor, Sunday school teacher, etc  :) ), I want to be challenged to think about the text.  Topical sermons distract me as I flip from passage to passage.  Again, don't misunderstand me, topical messages are good for quick instruction.  However good book by book, chapter by chapter, verse by verse teaching is IMHO a most excellent way to teach and to encourage the entire congregation to read, hear, and understand the Word

Nicholas, I would agree that some anticipation about the text, as well as some continuity might help the listener focus a bit better. If I know the preacher will develop some themes from, say, the Gospel of John, then if I have any seriousness about my discipleship, I would want to spend some time meditating about John. Some congregations make time for dialog on the sermon topic. Sometimes the class session can explore the theme together with the preacher.

patriciaredstone

Your last two sentences hit the nail on the head. Why have we become a people who go to "church" (it's not church) to be entertained and hear the same things over and over and think that's is what our Christianity is about? Pulpit minister is a term non-existent with the early believers. Sure there were preachers--but our version is not what it was about. It was about what the Spirit led 2 or 3 to say about what the SPIRIT was showing them. It was about sharing thier lives and their "things" and their relationships and what God was showing all of them. The older ones in the faith(elders) helped and taught the younger ones. It has now boiled down to titles and arrogance has replaced humility. "I had lunch with the "pastor". See the system is set up to promote pride and that is the trap the enemy has laid to lead us away from truth. Why was Paul dishonored in the churches? Why did he have to rebuke the Corinthians and the Galatians? So would he be appalled today at what we claim to be "church"? Yes, you're probably right, it isn't going to change overall--hasn't for over 1000 years--but love always hopes...

seekr

Barry

I am not insulting those who are called and pastors that are truly servants. And maybe it is about the defining point of what a pastor really is. I do not believe that pastorship is a degree based on any specific denominational stance. To become a pastor nowadays we go to college and our seminaries and come home with our peice of paper and we earn the title "pastor". Please forgive me if I do tend to come on a little too strong. I do pray for sight for those following the systematic approach, wanting to please a God who gave His all. And I also have seen pastors who have wanted to do the right thing, and the board stopped them from following through. But so often I see arrogance on display and the ones who don't follow the list presented by their particular denomination, left empty and discouraged. I WOULD rather honor those who have stood their ground no matter the cost to them personally. So what is a pastor? I know Paul wrote about the super apostles and those who were dishonoring him, while greedy for gain. I cannot see in someone's heart, but I can see the fruit of what religiosity has borne. Do I not speak up for those wounded and living in shame thinking they are the ones who have failed as they've been drawn and measured by some overseers rule? Do I stand by silently, when Jesus came for the bruised? God has called me to look for the strays and to help mend their wounds.

seekr

Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you. (Hebrews 13:17)

All

A good article on this site under "archives" (so many of them are good) is "They Changed Church" by Rubel Shelley. Is in line with what is being said.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (nerdneh @ Mar. 11 2002,9:39)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]patriciaredstone, in answer to your question about younger preachers. Of course, one should not generalize about a whole class of persons. I have seen many dedicated young proclaimers who are in love with the Good News and want only to share it. On the other hand, as one of my friends who is an excellent elder told me; "In years past our potential ministers asked us what our program was, now they mostly ask what our package is." I hope this is not typical, and perhaps it is not. I think there is more emphasis placed on success as a bottom line today than ever before. This is dangerous, as Bonhoeffer said; "To the one in love with success, the figure of the Crucified is an enigma." Yet, bottom line theology is more prevalent than we can imagine. Who can fill the pews, jack up the attendance, and use the baptistry the most seems to be popular in many areas. I once made a little joke to a group so oriented, I asked them if they could invite any Bible character to speak at their next seminar, which they would pick; Jonah or Jeremiah? They laughed, but I believe they would have picked Jonah. "Come hear the man who converted a whole City!"  Actually, either Jonah or the Samaritan woman (John 4) holds the record for sheer number of people becoming interested in God in a single day. (My parody does not permit me to mention Peter in Acts 2 at this time). We couldn't invite the Samaritan Woman to speak, and Jeremiah actually preached a sermon on the "Temple of the Lord" that seemed to hurt attendance badly, so we will have to go with Jonah in spite of his bad attitude and ungracious spirit. This does seem to be a trend that is more scary than legalism. I hope I am wrong.[/quote]
Bob,

How right you are about not judging people in groups -- and to make one more group judgement -- women should understand this better than any other group!

You say, the trend of success over faithfulness is "a trend that is more scary than legalism." I agree. The allure of legalism is attached to the soul's need for grounding. I admire many forms of legalism, especially that of the Shakers, Mennonites and Benedictines. I think there is spiritual value in relinquishment, but I don't perceive the necessity of a lifetime committment to it. In other words legalism is a fine place to visit from time to time, but I wouldn't want to live there. In an ideal world I could drink from one cup in a clapping congregation! As a woman raised in the Church of Christ, I have even managed to find spiritual value in keeping silence before God ... a spiritual discipline I may never have discovered outside of legalism.

But Success is the Pandora that dabbles in things it may never be able to undo. Success cannot accept death, or mystery, or the mystery of death. What does Success do with self-denial?! Our churches now encourage Christians to regard the privilege of power that they call leadership to influence our community in a political way! Success is fleeting and fragile. It is not sustainable. What's more, it is not real. Legalism is at least a set of rules and laws. Success is nothing really.

The response seems to be that most churches compartmentalise and regulate the Body in order to monitor the functions of the Body (are they trying to make spiritual shepherding a "no brainer") but the Body's natural functions and systems are not being met causing stress and sometimes even shut-down allowing the contrived system to take over.

This creates deadness.

Another example: Our new minister was shocked that our young people do not sit together "down front" on Sunday Morning. So he had the youth minister call all of the teens between 13 and 19 and tell them that a seat would be reserved for them at the front of the auditiorium on Sunday morning. He assumed that the young people were too shy to sit together. But evidently, the young people like sitting with their moms and dads and helping with the younger brothers and sisters and taking the Lord's Supper with their families because after all of the calling, bulletin notices and announcements they were still sitting with their families. So, on Sunday morning they were chastised and put on a guilt trip for not sitting up front. The elder read the scripture about edifying one another, and said, "We old folks are edified by seeing you young people, "the future church" (LIKE THEY ARE NOT THE CHURCH ALREADY) sitting "down front" and worshipping God.

Any wonder that our young people leave the church as soon as they can?

patriciaredstone, I'm sure you have more of an impact than you may think.  Shepherds come in all shapes and forms.  There is no gender in God's economy.  Speaking for myself, your words on this forum are well respected and I listen.  I might not agree with all you say but I certainly think about it.

Bill is a rather common name so I'll sign this with my given name.

Billy

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (nerdneh @ Mar. 16 2002,9:49)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]This exchange has brought me much profit spiritually. A few years ago we had a pedophile in our congregation. He led singing and acted about as spiritual as anyone I knew. My wife constantly said; "There is some terrible secret he is keeping."  I would ask her, "Do you have any evidence?" She apparently had some gift of discerning spirits, at least I do not know how else to explain the fact that in short order he was discovered in the very act of abusing a child. He spent several years in prison and is now out, acting out the same evil desires. We understand Jesus died for him as much as anyone else. He constantly tried to take advantage of this truth by manipulating others to "forgive" him so that he could have another opportunity to abuse their children. What are we to understand about Jesus' statement to be "wise as serpents and harmless as doves?" I see no obligation in my Christianity to be manipulated and used by abusive persons. I can offer someone a choice, but I cannot make it for them.[/quote]
Instinct is a spiritual gift. And many women seem to have a supernatural helping of it! A friend of mine calls it radar. Yes, like your wife, it was the women who found out these men and finally convinced two of the husbands to listen. All three of these men walked the walk and spoke the talk both in the church and in the community. They were clean cut, wore suits and had served in the military. But, with all of them, something was "akilter" ... something didn't make sense.

Some men also notice character flaws that many women often miss. When a girlfriend announced she had just ordered a car from a Christian brother who owned a dealership, my husband took me aside and told me that he would never do business with the man. He said he didn't have any hard evidence but suspected the brother would take advantage of this sister... and he did just as my husband thought he would. My husband and I have had lapses in our seperate gifts of discernment and have, at times, ignored that still, small voice, but we both have a great deal of respect for the thoughts of each and we listen attentively. I would that this kind of integrated awareness were practiced on an institutional level. Doves and serpents, after all, are creatures of community and are difficult if not impossible to distinguish according to sex.

During Jesus' time there were no licensed clinical counselors. People had to know the signs of anti-social behaviour if they did not want to fall prey to dangerous people. That's why, I think we have to be wise as serpents. But not all dangerous people are evil, some are mentally ill. That is why, I think, we need to be gentle as doves.

Thanks, Bob, for the correct spelling of pedophile!

I have a quesiton.

When a known or registered pedophile or rapist places membership, what is the responsiblity of the leadership?

Do they keep an eye on him?

Do they warn members who might be at risk? such as parents of young children and women? and risk a mass exodus of the membership.

If the leaders decide in favor of warning the members how do they do this? By phone? Private meetings? a letter?

Do they disclose the identity of the offender or just issue a vague "head's up" sort of warning.

Keep in mind that if a child or a woman is abused, individuals who had knowledge that the child or woman was at risk and kept it confidential can be held responsible for damages. Because of the debacle of the Catholic church, insurance for pedophilia is much to expensive for most churches and most insurance companies wrangle out of paying if the church did not warn members.

Also consider that if you divulge the name of a suspected sexual offender you had better have good insurance! One of our pedophiles -- because he had been under investigation for many years without a conviction -- made quite a bit of income filing slander suits. We had several visits from his lawyer. Because our church was not incorporated properly at the time we could have lost the church building and even the homes of some of our members.

What is the church's responsiblity to sexual offenders? What is the church's responsiblity to at risk members?

Marc << We begin with good intentions, yet we don't forsee consequences. >>

Good intentions ... enthusiasm ... the Christian desire to see good in everything and everyone is precisely the kind of environment to attract pedohiles. Of course, Christians should not stop being who we are. I think it is possible to be aware, to be cautious ... to let people know they are being observed and maintain the spirit of community.

By the way, I think it is law in California that camps have a nurse on duty for every 100 campers. Also, campers need to pass a brief health exam before their parents leave the campground. All medications are distributed through the camp nurse. I appreciate your observation that you do not feel adequate to work with children as a camp counselor! Your feeling of inadequacy is probably a sign that you would be great if you were equpped with a few childhood development classes or seminars. There are a lot of people who think they are great with children, and so few who really are!

Bob,

How can the church of Christ be anything but a church of forgiveness?  If it is Christ that we follow, then we are by definition a church of forgiveness.

There is no group that is without problems, nor were we ever promised there would be. And the grand commission we received was rather inclusive, we are to go to all nations baptizing in His name. Somehow I do not see where that means we only go where no problems or problem people exist.

I believe a church of Christ should have a mission statement which reads:

"We have some people here, perhaps all of the people here, with some serious problems, but God is gracious and we are committed to letting him work on all  of us. If you require a perfect church, please continue your search elsewhere, and if you do find it, please do not become a member, as you will ruin the whole thing."

Dios te bendiga

I just picked up a used book at a book fair. The Meaning of Saints by Lawrence Cunningham. He explains how we continue the dehuminzation of martyers by sainting them. This elevation of the human capacity for uncommon self-sacrifice prevents us from recognising the holiness of those mundane martyers in our daily lives. I think Kathleen Norris continues this thinking in her writings ... and also Alfred Noyes in The Unknown God.

All,

This topic may reveal a deep problem within the CofC. I confine myself to the CofC because that is my current 'frame of reference'.

I say, "may", because the problem is alleged, and I have no good way of checking it out.

The problem is a lack of Bible knowledge within the CofC as compared to the NT church and as compared to the CofC of times past. Many preachers who have been active in the church for several decades claim that there has been a significant decline in Bible study and Bible knowledge over the last few decades. As I have said, whether this is true or not is probably beyond our ability to measure. However, based on the availability of recreation and entertainment in the USA, I strongly suspect that Bible study time has badly suffered here.

Is this statement true?
"Few Christians spend very much time in serious Bible study, Bible reading, and Bible memorization."
I hope not, but how many of you readers can claim, say, 10 hours a week of time in the Word (outside of church services)?

How much study time is enough?

Some have made observations about preaching in posts above. Take on a Biblical perspective - the mindset of a Berean (Acts 17:11). Take notes during sermons. Study the passage or the topic through for yourself. I think that you will find that even the best speaker can just barely scratch the surface in 30 minutes or an hour.

Read and study the Bible for yourself, too, because if you just listen to sermons and classes and read articles or books on the 'net or in print, you've put a filter between yourself and the Bible. The writer chooses the topic and presents the ideas from their own viewpoint, choosing the topics and verses that are considered. A preacher or writer probably does not intend bias, but which person is truly impartial?

Continuing in study of the Word,
Larry Skipper

Several things.  1) all Christian religious studies have indicated that college age people know progressively less each year.  The "average" is now around the secular humanist level.  
2)  there are "facts" and then there is "meaning" and then there is "application".   We used to have differences mostly over application.  Now it is even over "facts".  (such as 14 clean animals, 2 unclean on the ark, and that was bigger than a tug boat.)  
3)  Topical studies along with book studies are a good combination.  1Cor. 15 is a topical study about the resurrection of the dead for example.  Why?  Because people didn't believe in it and Paul showed them "all" about it.
4)  Out of context, or misuse of scripture is not only bad and dangerous, (ie, David Koresh) but if someone reads it for themselves, you and all you believe will be discredited.  I have even heard and read "famous name" preachers that often and continuously pulled verses out of context... both liberal and conservative.
5)  Read 1 John about the 23 things we CAN KNOW.
6)  I have written the editor for several answers about his statements of the purpose of the magazine and he has said to post them here.
7) What is the difference in an "open progressive Christian" and a New Testament Christian?
8) What doctrinal issues did the apostles not agree on?  The ones you cited actually prove that they DID agree... the other was over personnel on a mission tour, not doctrine or even method.  Why do you equate this with "not having the right answers" and "theories" etc.?
9) The other 6 or 7 questions are similar.

I think to have discussions with others and to meet them where they are, and not starting off necessarily with a list, is what reaches people most. To go empty and allow the Spirit to lead, and yet having something relevant to teach, is maybe what it should always be. I think that the early church mostly met in homes and everyone shared what the Spirit led them to share--it wasn't about just one man leading but brothers communicating in relationship and meeting each others' needs. If the discussions lead away from the original passages then maybe that is what is best. I believe preaching is not about things we've heard and passed down for years, but what the Spirit reveals to us as we lean on Jesus. It took God opening my eyes to realise how much we just "think" we know what scripture is saying and question each other--when in relationship to Him, he reveals what it is saying. If we don't know (and we won't have all the answers, we're not supposed to) then we just wait on God's timing or hear what the Spirit reveals to someone else. "Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said."1Cor.14:29. I KNOW my "opinions" on things--but I need to find out Gods'.

seekr

The discussion has been useful for me, and I appreciate the input from differing angles. One of the problems I have with a certain type of topical preaching is where generic statements are made that are then backed up by citing or quoting numerous scriptures. I know, for certain persons, this is biblical preaching to its core. Still, if you think about it, say the preacher says, "Be baptized!" And then says, Acts 2:38, Romans 6:4, Col. 2:12, Gal. 3 etc. etc. Then it all sounds wonderfully scriptural but such preaching actually empties each verse of its context. For example, if I just quote Acts 2:38-39 to support the generic point then I leave out the gift of the Holy Spirit. If I just quote Col 2:12 to support the generic point "be baptized" then I leave out the incredible idea of God's power operating in the faith encounter of baptism, and so it goes. Preaching from the text with respect to the context leaves the entire thought intact. Thoughtless topical preaching leaves us with a grab bag of generic propositions, since little attention is paid to the particular treasures in each passage. They are being used as mere footnotes to the point. If the topical preacher can avoid this pitfall some great work can be done with this type of sermon. Over the years some real atrocities have been done to texts by this approach. How many times have you heard the preacher say; "We must work out our own salvation! Phil. 2:12" ? Even a casual glance at Phil 2 reveals that vss. 12 and 13 are two parts of one sentence, and that the second half radically modifies the interpretation reached if only 2:12 is quoted. "...for it is God who is at work in you both to will and accomplish..."  If this type of topical preaching were avoided, some good insights could be provided.
As to topical being harder than textual, I disagree. Working through a text with all the attention that must be paid to language, the meaning of the pericope, and all the accompanying thought forms found in the epistle or gospel requires much more discipline than settling on some topic and finding texts to support it. That is my experience anyway.

Greetings everyone,

One of my major reasons for advocating book by book preaching is that this method may galvinized the bench warmers to READ the Word.  We would not walk into the sancturary wondering which text will be used today.  Uninvolved, Uninformed, Unconcerned waiting patiently for the next dose of Gospel from the pulpit weakens the believer.  Knowing the text up front can change the entire viewpoint of the audience.  Feedback please.  Maybe I'm wrong about this?

Nicholas......saved by grace

As I read the last few posts in this thread, I am praising the Lord I am not the pastor of your congregations. What encouraging folks you are. Instead of lifting up your pastor, who if like most, is probably putting in 60-80 hours per week in service to you for little pay, you choose to negate God's ministry through him/her by calling their sermons 'banal' and calling them a 'postulator'.

If I might make a suggestion? Quit treating your preacher like a dog, and start showing him/her some appreciation. Both his/her messages will improve, and your attitude probably will too.

I've been on both sides of the pulpit, as a congregant, and as a preacher, and I can tell you, it is people with this kind of attitude that detroy ministries.

In Christ,
Barry

Patricia,

I also appreciate great teaching and recognize that it is both a gift and a lot of work. I do think that one advantage of a local pulpit minister is that he or she can spend time in prayer for the message, seeking to know what God intends for them to deliver to the congregation. Local ministers can do this better than traveling ministers, IMO. However, I enjoy hearing great speakers and teachers at lectureships. I wonder if some hybrid system might work? Maybe even a simulcast message by a renowned teacher every few weeks, with follow up class discussions, and local ministers to preach on other weeks. I don't know if this would be accepted by many people, but it is an intriguing idea to me.

Mike
:D

All too often the congregation forgets that the responsibility for a healthy church resides with them every bit as much as it does with the pulpit. We all hear complaints over the quality of the leadership, the quality of the sermons, the quality of the programs.

Yet who holds the ultimate responsibility for the quality of the congregation, but the congregation?  We are responsible for the "System" that exists. Each time we sit on our hands with our lips sealed as injustices occur before our very eyes we are lending sanction to Satan. Each and every time we accept legalistic contortions of the love presented to us by our Lord Jesus Christ, we deem these distortions acceptable and negate the very existence of our Lord.

In Luke our Lord responded to James and John when they asked if they should call down fire as did Elija,   "You do not know what manner of spirit you are of. For the Son of Man did not come to destroy lives, but to save them."  Yet all too often, congregations of today sit by as figurative fire is called down from the Heavens on those who do not meekly comply with the leadership of their congregation. Yes they sit by with their only thought being relief at having escaped sanction themselves, THIS TIME.

How many times do we stand up in defense of our brothers and sisters when they face the wrath of those with whom they do not comply? And how many of us feel deep and sincere shame when we hear a preacher who has been removed from the pulpit for not denying the Lord to follow men.

All well and good to complain of the church, that is until we realize that we are the church!! If the church is bad, then what are we?

n.b. I meant to add; "God does not command success; he commands faithfulness."

oops! Sorry!

Booty,

Please listen.

I am not bitter toward the profession of preaching.

I have not condemned "a whole group." Therefore there is no need for me to forgive a whole group.

I have never thought that preachers are more sinful than other sinners. But neither do I believe they are more vulnerable.

I do not hold preachers up as having salvific power... or any kind of power. They are not superior or inferior to anyone else in the body. I do not pray for the preacher more or less than any other Christian unless he has made a specific request.

I do not support a man as a preacher just because he wants to preach.

Pointing out flaws in the modern American profession of preching is not a sin.

I hope I have not offended.

Bill,

I see this discussion as productive. It has helped me to see that I am not alone in my observations of what Bob calls "militarisitc" and "commercial" models of the modern American church. There are a few books circulating out there about this problem. One book (which I own and have read) is "Thin Bodies Fat Minds: Why Evangelicals Don't Think And What To Do About It" by Os Guinnes (sp?) the other which I have not read, but intend to is "Love The Lord Your God With All Your Mind" (maybe someone can help me here, I have lost the author's name). These books are important reading for Christians.

Bill, I was raised in missionary churches in Italy. I have so much respect for the church of my childhood, but things have not been the same since I returned to the states. I guess commercialism, the invasion of American style politics in the church and an unhealthy interest in "models of success" (if it works for someone else, we try it) are all ingredients to the overall problem, which are so deeply imbedded in our culture, that it is difficult to see these deeper issues as problems.

Of course I talk to my church leaders about this stuff (many of them are my very best friends) ... and they stare at me with blank eyes and tell me that if I would just go to more Bible classes and church meetings the problem would work itself out. I ask how this could possibly be since the Bible classes are non-participatory (they are only a more didactic sermon) and I am not able to attend church in the evenings because of my work... and even so how would my attending church give me more influence than I have now? I am a woman and my influence is of very limited value in these deeper issues of leadership. In my church past, I have attended all of the classes, taught children's classes, organised women's retreats, worked professionally in the church for seventeen years and still I did not have the ear of the church leaders anymore than I do today! The fact is, there is nothing I can do or say to help the church leaders to see a problem. They are on the treadmill, and their own momentum is working against them.

This exchange has brought me much profit spiritually. A few years ago we had a pedophile in our congregation. He led singing and acted about as spiritual as anyone I knew. My wife constantly said; "There is some terrible secret he is keeping."  I would ask her, "Do you have any evidence?" She apparently had some gift of discerning spirits, at least I do not know how else to explain the fact that in short order he was discovered in the very act of abusing a child. He spent several years in prison and is now out, acting out the same evil desires. We understand Jesus died for him as much as anyone else. He constantly tried to take advantage of this truth by manipulating others to "forgive" him so that he could have another opportunity to abuse their children. What are we to understand about Jesus' statement to be "wise as serpents and harmless as doves?" I see no obligation in my Christianity to be manipulated and used by abusive persons. I can offer someone a choice, but I cannot make it for them.

Patricia,

You may be right. In fact, you probably are right. Certainly, it would be terribly wrong to allow someone to be in a leadership position when they have demonstrated themselves to be untrustworthy and abusive. It makes it easier for the offender to sin further, and exposes others to abuse. Although it may sound harsh, it is simply not profitable.

My only hesitation to go along with you completely is that I haven't thought through every possibility where something like this might present itself. Thus, I hate to take a stand and say there could never be an exception. But, I do agree that these exceptions would (if they exist at all) be rare, and that the mantle of leadership could not be acquired (or reacquired) except after a long passage of time. For example, what would you do with someone who was guilty of rape or child abuse or criminal assault, and then years later became a Christian and led a transformed life?

We do have freedom of will regarding our actions, but don't have freedom regarding the consequences of those actions. So a forgiven sinner frequently still has an earthly price to pay for a particular sin. This is not a point on which we disagree. Nonetheless, although probably a naive hope, it just bothers me that the church has to deal with these people so similarly to the way the world deals with them. I don't have a solution to offer. As I ponder this, I may post further on the topic. I just hate to see the church placed in a position where the leaders have to notify the congregation about the sins of other members, and warn them to be wary. What kind of fellowship is that? Maybe I'm just being impractical. I do place a huge value on protecting the weak, I'm just hoping that there is a more Christlike solution out there. Any ideas?

Mike
:D

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (patriciaredstone @ Mar. 16 2002,2:39)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]The very thought of child abuse makes my skin crawl. Down here abusers do not survive prison. Machisimo demands their extermination.

But now I have a question, Patricia you obviously are in prayer for the abused children and I join you. Will you join me in prayer for the abusers? Will you go visit the ones in prison and witness to them of our Lord's love and forgiveness? They and their fellow abuser were in the congregation, they are your brothers in the faith. Do they not deserve our prayers just as any other lost sheep?

Or do they simply serve as examples so your horror story might be more horrible than mine? The Lord loves you Patricia and so do I, relax in His perfect love and learn to love others including your enemies and difficult as it is, child abusers as well.

Dios te bendiga,
Booty[/quote]
Booty,

Your concern for the children and the child molesters is a wonderful response, born out of the Christian's unique work and passion for reconcilliation and redemption.

Your response also seems to weigh of suspicion that I might be exploiting my experience for attention. This response, I believe, is a complicated misapplication of the Christlike need for reconcilliation and redemption. This was the same logic which was used by those who forgave, embraced and welcomed the molestor back into fellowship and chastised me for "bringing up the past."

Churches are entering a new era. Things that were swept under the carpet will be brought into the light. This dirty work will be done by the world if it is not done by the church. I think this new era will be the era of listening. Good leaders will not hush up things just because they are unpleasant. Skill in discernment is most important these days. Leadership and Christianity Today Magazines reveal that sexual addiction among preachers is an increasing problem. I think it is interesting that two sexually addicted ministers I have known were exceptionally hard on women in their sermons. Accusing the women of the church with being obcessed with appearance ... dressing suggestively ... being a negative influence on our husband's spirituality through our worldliness ... It made so much sense when both of these men were discovered.

No. I do not visit the molestors. Neither do I intend to visit them. I will leave that work to the men. I do visit girls in juvinile dentention though.[/quote]
Patricia,

Sorry I have been off line for way too long. We had a virus that wiped out both harddrives on the laptops and the dinasaur of a desktop had a modem that the ISP would not accept, too slow.

Interesting way of putting it that my post "weighs of suspicion". It does of course and I am.

I will repeat my question to you, realizing that you do not choose to visit the molesters in prison, Will you join me in praying for them?

Patricia, the Lord never promised us it would be easy, in fact He promised us quite the opposite. But He did instruct us to love our enemies. And by His example He showed us how.

We must learn to forgive if we are to be forgiven. We also must learn that when repentance is sincere, He forgives ALL. All, Patricia, includes child molestation. Honestly I do not understand how He can forgive such a despicable act, but then I cannot understand how He saw fit to forgive me.
No, we do not close our eyes to ongoing sin in our congregations. But we also do not focus in it to the point of losing sight of His perfect love for us.

Dios te bendiga,
Booty

It is interesting to see how our thought has evolved from sound biblical preaching to the place in the discussion we now occupy. Now, please don't think I am some person obsessed with "staying on the subject." Actually, I think we are staying on the subject because sound biblical doctrine covers all our behaviors and attitudes in respect to God and our fellow humans. Now, having said this, I am fascinated with the idea of a church that takes forgiveness seriously and yet is prudent about not enabling predators to continue to prey on potential victims. A child molester in a youth program would no doubt find the temptations overwhelming. But, and here is the rub, I have found most church members, of course there are exceptions, want to be in a church that doesn't have many problems or any problem people. At least, if they do, don't talk about it! Which is probably why no one really wants to talk about deviant members. This drives people away, and also sets leadership up for legal hassles. So, most leaderships  I have been around just hope the offender goes somewhere else. And when they do, seldom, if ever, is the new congregation warned. This of course results in even more suffering and pain as the new congregation finds out the hard way about their new member.
If ever there was an area where leadership needs to be in prayer and serious ministry, it is this area. How do we get there? What would a church look like that would have a mission statement that included this idea: "We have some people here, perhaps all of the people here, with some serious problems, but God is gracious and we are committed to letting him work on all  of us. If you require a perfect church, please continue your search elsewhere, and if you do find it, please do not become a member, as you will ruin the whole thing."?

Bob,

If I ever started weeping, I am not sure how I could ever stop. And I do know that weep is exactly what Satan would have me be doing. The lesson is in the book of Job.  

But how can I weep when each morning I awaken to a world of opportunity the Lord has presented to me? How can I weep when each night I go to sleep under His stars to dream of the day when  I will be called to His side.

Bob, sorry but I do not agree with you. I believe part of our problem and part of Satans victory is the time we spend weeping. The Lord never promised us a heaven here on earth, But He did promise us an eternity in Heaven with Him.

We all receive our blows in His name. We all have our horror stories. But why dwell in the horror when His love abounds in our lives? Accept the blows with the glory of having received them in His name and move on! There is too much to be done to spend time in misery.

Bob, in my veins is the blood of misery. In the U.S. you merely disfellowship each other for differences in faith, in Ireland it is taken quite a bit further. Read the tragic history of Patrick and his disciples, there is a story of misery and horror. First rejected by Rome and later scourged by england. To this very day people of faith are killing each other because their beliefs, their interpretations, their doctrines differ.

Should I fill these pages with those stories of horror?

No brother, no. Joy in the Lord, joy in His love and grace.

And may the blessings of the Lord fill your hearth with the sheer joy of life.

Brojees

while a student at Sunset School of Preaching in the early 90's I had a wonderful instructor named Abe Lincoln (no kidding, that was his name).  Although we disagreed on many areas of theology, he once said something I remember till this day...He said a preach should preach a topical sermon once a year, and should immediately repent for preaching it...LOL.
I agree that Biblical preaching is exegetical in nature...most of the time.  How's that for equivocation?  I am not so sure about the premise that the Scripture says exactly the same thing now as it did then...Scripture after all is real and living.  Need to examine that one closer.

Bob,
I would not disagree that much topical preaching is substandard, but it doesn't have to be that way at all. My point that topical preaching is harder stands true, only if the proper research for the topical sermon is done first. For example, not only does the good topical preacher/teacher need to know the context/background/etc... of one block of Scripture, but of every Scripture he quotes. If one just does the typical "Concordance" sermon, then I would agree with you.

I still think it is a misnomer to call Expository preaching "Biblical Preaching", though. There is not one example of such in the Bible, so why should we call it Biblical?

In Christ,
Barry

Barry

Do you understand the concept of pastor? You talk of sevice--maybe i'm just a little naive, but I hear about service and see performance. In Ezekiel 34 it talks about the "shepherds who feed only themselves" and maybe you are not that way, but this is what is prevalent in most of the "churches" I've been to. So now my shepherd is the Lord and pastoring has taken on a whole new significance. It is fine to "talk" about the Lord, another to live for Him. Do you need examples of what I've seen done in the name of Jesus by so-called pastors? Is this just a few bad experiences and now I'm bitter? None of this was a personal slam against anyone--but a rebuke for those who equate traditions passed down with relationship. My point is that the "church" has lost its focus and is bound up in the red tape of religiosity. There are pastors out there called by God, and some started out right with a heart for God, but the system is made to induce (seduce) pride by making the assembly focus on one man's perspective. Would I treat anyone like a dog by speaking the truth of what is happening in our society today? We are all just brothers with Jesus as the head of the church. Most pastors today are businessmen looking to appease the faithful tither. I did not create the system and neither did our Lord. Sorry if this offends but I know many people have seen the same and left discouraged. And I do pray for those caught up in it and blinded by a subtle enemy.

seekr

Do we condemn the group because a few are weak? For that matter, who are we any one of us to condemn anyone? Who here is qualified to launch the first stone, certainly not I!

I am sorry to hear of the disappointments you have received from those who fill the pulpit. I pray I may never disappoint one of my parishioners in a like manner. But I opray even more that not a single one of my parishioners looks to me for their faith and salvation. I pray they look only to our Lords, Jesus Christ.

Yes the temptations of the pulpit are strong, very strong. I never would have imagined just how strong they can be. And many fail, the devil is constantly at work and what greater target than a man teaching the word. But the noly way to counter him of darkness is with faith, prayer and love.  Love of our Lord and love for one another.

I know my congregation prays for me on a daily basis, I feel their prayers at work in my daily life in so many ways.

And I hope you feel my prayers for you in the pain and bitterness you are expressing towards the pulpit.

FORGIVE US?

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (nerdneh @ Mar. 12 2002,1:44)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Nicholas, what I meant by a cheerleader message is that one of our leaders was heavily influenced by a commercial model of church leadership in which the bottom line was the most important consideration. He expected sermons to be pep talks exhorting people to go out and make more "sales." (not real sales of course, but the sort of approach one would use if one were selling a product.) He was supported in this by another leader with a deep commitment to another model of leadership which I will style as "military." The sermons desired were similar to the ones mentioned above, except there was to be a commitment to the system rather than to Christ. This meant textual sermons were not valued as they were viewed as demanding too much from the congregation which apparently needed heavy-handed fussing and lots of "oughts, musts and shoulds." I hope this gives you some insight into what I meant.[/quote]
This sounds like my church. Some days at church I feel like I've walked into an Amway meeting. The "should's", oughts and musts" abound! All of this is to serve the institution and not the individual.

Everything is a marketing strategy. We give ourselves a party for giving the most money to a benevolence project! People are labeled at birth, compartmentalised and herded in our own exclusive demographic right to the grave, "New Borns" "Toddlers" "Pre-Kindergartners" "Kindergartners" "Grade Schoolers" "Pre-teens" "Teens" "Singles" "Young Marrieds"  "30 Something's" "40 Somethings" "Single Parents" "Widows" "Leadership" "Ministers" "Golden Years Group"

I know these projects and programs and strategies were born with good intentions but the message seems to be, "stay in your place" "don't cross the lines." I have been an evangelist for forty years but the new Evangelism Minister will not allow anyone to teach one of the church contacts without first taking his  Evangelism Training Seminar! so we can "properly" teach these contacts "how to obey the gospel."

Correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to have noticed a trend here that disturbs me. I have found myself sitting here at my screen joining in a very negative chorus. Forgive me Lord, my flesh is weak and I am a sinner.

Reviewing this topic and a few others I notice what appears to be a proclivity to criticize and complain of our individual congregations. Summarizing the review I did I see an overwhelming negative balance.

I believe we are taught when we have something in contrary with our brother we are to go to him with our problem first. So my question would be, "Those that our criticising their individual congregations, have you presented your constructive criticism to your brothers first before coming here to share these critiques?"

Once again, the responsibility for a sound and healthy congregation lies within the congregation. In loving your neighbor as yourself you are charged with resolving issues amongst yourselves. Our Lord Jesus clearly expressed a desire for unity amongst us and clearly laid out a plan where we first approach our offending brother or sister.  Like all else He taught us, He did this in love and wisdom.

Forgive me if I have offended anyone here, that is not my intent.

I agree that individuals should move on. The three individuals I mentioned did move on and, as far as I know, are doing quite well. But I think it is wrong for the institutution to move on. If church leaderships do not stop everything once and a while and evaluate their efforts, they will pay the consequences later on. I'm sure the catholic church regrets that they moved on and gave a fresh start, and put discreetly behind them the actions of those preists who continued to molest the children of the church under the the protection of institutional denial.

Forgive the horror story but it happend in my town too. There were three child molestors in my church at one time! No one would believe us. We could not believe the denial. The leaders of the church accused us of being unforgiving. So we finally left and the man molested two children of the church and was ultimately convicted. The other pedifile is in prison at this time for molestiing a child outside the church and the other moved away with his family and as far as I know is still at large. At this same church the preacher was sleeping with several of the  women at the church.

Horror stories are sometimes a way to put the past in front of us so that we will not make the same mistakes others have made. Let us use them well.

Booty << Bob, sorry but I do not agree with you. I believe part of our problem and part of Satans victory is the time we spend weeping. >>>

Booty, I'm not sure if I am correct, but it appears to me that you are saying that weeping is evil or sinful or at least contrary to God. I do not agree with this (if that is what you were saying) and I think the Bible is clear that God weeps and laments and grieves over sin. Do you think his people should not weep with Him?

Booty << The Lord never promised us a heaven here on earth, But He did promise us an eternity in Heaven with Him.
We all receive our blows in His name. We all have our horror stories. But why dwell in the horror when His love abounds in our lives? >>

I agree that God's love abounds, Booty. But "there is no light without some darkness in it, there is no joy without some pain" St John of the Cross. We cannot avoid or even really acknowledge one without the other. This is the paradox of the Christian life that we have been trying to discuss.

Booty << Accept the blows with the glory of having received them in His name and move on! >>

Perhaps it is a philosophical difference, Booty, but I respectfully dissagree that I should "accept" blows. I do not believe that Jesus taught us that we should be passive to abuse. His surrender to punishment, abuse and the mortification of the Body was to redeem us from ourselves. To help us to see our own ugliness and sin. Through Christ our eyes are opened to the ugliness of the human condition and our response to that new sight should not be to close our eyes. It should be action, action that heals.

Booty << There is too much to be done to spend time in misery. >>

Booty, do you think I am miserable? or in "misery"? If so, what have I said to give you this impression? Most of my friends think of me as a pretty jolly kind of person
:D -- a little deep maybe -- but jolly  :p

Skip--do you believe there is a general decline in people's willingness to read and study the Bible on their own (sorry for the awkward phrasing)?  I definitely see this where I am, but wasn't sure this was widespread.  I've just seen it as another symptom of this congregation's apathy.

I can understand if this is a widespread problem. Over the last decade plus our culture seems to have become more and more shallow.  There is too much out there; there are too many distractions.  Serious study would take too much of a commitment.

And where I am, sometimes I think even forming an opinion would take too much of an effort.  Sorry to be so negative.

Brother Bob,
I know you are a man of much wisdom.A preacher and teacher.

Do you think we need to examine Acts 2 with a little more open mindedness than in the past.

It seems reasonable to me that the message of the gospel in verses 14-36 was the message intended to begin the church of Jesus.Peter included all the pure thoughts of the death,burial and resurrection.After Peter declared Jesus to be Lord,the sermon ended.Some say he was interrupted.

Then a response was heard.Someone wanted to know how to respond.

Would you say that the gospel was preached in verses 14-36 and obedience was preached after some responded?

Would you say that 2 subjects were included in Acts 2.One being the gospel and one being obedience.

Personally,I can't see repentance and baptism being a part of the gospel.I see it as being the response to the gospel.

It seems that the gospel is pure when it contains only the D,B,R.Also Eph2:8 reflecks that.

I wonder what your thoughts are.

God bless,Charles

Hi Seekr,
I realize that there are bad pastors out there, but such sweeping statements like "Most pastors today are businessmen looking to appease the faithful tither" are an affront to the calling itself. I personally know hundreds of pastors, and only a couple of them would come even close to fitting your description. If you're going to make those kind of statements, start including some names so we know exactly who you're talking about. If "most pastors" are this way, surely you should be able to list a dozen or so, some specific ways that they have fulfilled your statement, and then list some ways that we could help them to get back on track. Don't you think that would be more productive than simply insulting all of God's servants that have been called to pastoral ministry?

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (patriciaredstone @ Mar. 10 2002,09:30)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Bill, I appreciate you and your work. Still, you must realise that many individuals who do not call themselves "preachers" or "pastors" also labor as you do 60-80 hours a week for the Lord.[/quote]
Patriciaredstone - These are the true "pastors(Shepherds)" of God.

Thank you Patricia. I am sick of age/marital status determing what is "the best" class for us to attend. What we need is classes geared to people with different spirtual needs and different life needs. A couple in their early 40's may be late in life parents and be better off bonding with couples with similar age children instead of the folks counting the days till the kids go to college.

A 25 year old may have a similar spiritual maturity of a 55 year old at the church and they may benefit from the same class.

At my former congregation I was running late one morning when my wife was on a business trip. Instead of going into the 30's class I slid into the auditorium (blue hair class). They were starting a book a week study of the Bible. I ended up staying in there, my wife joined me for it and as the year went on the "blue hair" class was getting younger and younger as more of us 30 and 40 year olds drifted in. Before it was over, I was teaching the class a good portion of the time.

I'll take that over blind assignment due to age.

Please nail it on right next to those 95 theses from that other guy.

I like the idea of abandoning horror stories as an ongoing testimony, for they do keep you imprisoned in the past, in the victim stage. We must move on with the strength of the LORD, and there is strength in moving forward. At times, we encounter a fresh victim who has been terribly spiritually mugged,  and it pulls us back and reminds us of our horrible experiences. We may share these with the new victim, but we don't become bogged down in them, nor do they become normative for our Christian experience. May God give us the strength to focus on his healing grace!

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (patriciaredstone @ April 02 2002,7:23)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Booty << Bob, sorry but I do not agree with you. I believe part of our problem and part of Satans victory is the time we spend weeping. >>>

Booty, I'm not sure if I am correct, but it appears to me that you are saying that weeping is evil or sinful or at least contrary to God. I do not agree with this (if that is what you were saying) and I think the Bible is clear that God weeps and laments and grieves over sin. Do you think his people should not weep with Him?

Booty << The Lord never promised us a heaven here on earth, But He did promise us an eternity in Heaven with Him.
We all receive our blows in His name. We all have our horror stories. But why dwell in the horror when His love abounds in our lives? >>

I agree that God's love abounds, Booty. But "there is no light without some darkness in it, there is no joy without some pain" St John of the Cross. We cannot avoid or even really acknowledge one without the other. This is the paradox of the Christian life that we have been trying to discuss.

Booty << Accept the blows with the glory of having received them in His name and move on! >>

Perhaps it is a philosophical difference, Booty, but I respectfully dissagree that I should "accept" blows. I do not believe that Jesus taught us that we should be passive to abuse. His surrender to punishment, abuse and the mortification of the Body was to redeem us from ourselves. To help us to see our own ugliness and sin. Through Christ our eyes are opened to the ugliness of the human condition and our response to that new sight should not be to close our eyes. It should be action, action that heals.

Booty << There is too much to be done to spend time in misery. >>

Booty, do you think I am miserable? or in "misery"? If so, what have I said to give you this impression? Most of my friends think of me as a pretty jolly kind of person
:D -- a little deep maybe -- but jolly  :p[/quote]
Patricia,

I said "the time we spend weeping". The greater the time, the greater the victory for Satan. And I do not mean weeping is a sin. But it is a victory for Satan, as the time we lose in weeping, is time we could spend witnessing for our Lord.

Yes and there is no cold without hot nor in without out nor up without down, (Philosophy was a favorite subject of mine as well.), but what is important is the time we spend down versus the time we spend up.

It certainly is a philosphical difference and I would be quite respectful in your disagreement. It is not I with whom you disagree.


Luke 6:29
If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also.

Matthew 5:39
But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Patricia from the first post of yours that I read I have seen pain so deep it forces me to shudder. Beloved sister I wish I could take this pain from you. I can not. He can. I have been praying steadily that He will as I have seen in you a deep intellect, considerable wisdom and a profound knowledge of the Word.

I just finished a book that I would love to share with you with your insights and your historical knowledge, but Patricia you are continually recounting one horror tale after another. Yes I know you have had differences with the leadership of at least one congregation over a pedophile, but Patricia there is so much more to God's church and God's love. Not all leaderships are like the one or ones you have told us of. Some leaderships are so caring and grace filled they put you in awe of His Spirit in action.


Dios te bendiga,
Booty