The Beast Revelation
This letter is dedicated to all Christians.
The following letter is a summary of Revelation 13. Its purpose is to show the method used in finding the conclusions which have been stated. Nothing new has been added from my previous letters. It is more of a compilation of them all. This writing is the same material in different words. The Bible uses this same method of explanation. There are four Gospels. In each you see a different view of the same material. This can be beneficial because the meaning becomes more exact. Although, if this is a first time reader, then this will all be news to you. With that in mind, here we go.
The first thing that should be addressed when doing any study of Bible prophecy is what questions do I intend to answer. Some of these questions can seem a little simplistic, but their answers are much more complicated. In my studies there were only a few questions that I saw as needing an answer. My questions were very simple. First, who is this individual who is identified by the number 666? Second, who is the false prophet and how does he make the whole world worship the beast whose number is 666. Another question has to do with these same individuals. Could these two individuals be the same person, or for that matter Satan himself? Where is Satan during all this? That last question is very important. It actually goes straight to the answer of all the questions. Finally, when would someone expect to see these individuals on the Earth? Literally, what time frame should I see them? Those are the questions. The answers are much more involved.
This narrative will attempt to show how the answers are figured out. These answers can be seen from events that happen in the nightly news. This leads me to a key, which most of us know, but most of us forget. The Bible is a history book. Some events have happened, while some are waiting to happen. It is the ones that have not happened that we are most concerned with. Here is another key. By the way, these keys I speak of are keys to understanding. The Lord spoke in parables. The reason he gave was that it was for some to know the mysteries of God, while it was for some to know not. In hearing, they do not hear. In seeing, they do not see. I compare it to telling the truth, while hiding it at the same time. Many of the parables that the Lord spoke he immediately gave an answer to. He showed how he used certain symbols and words to describe subjects and then gave their meanings. Now for the punch line. The Lord also spoke in parables that he did not identify. These parables go straight to the hidden meaning of these end times. Another key is word substitution. An example of this is a pretty well-known item from Revelation. This word substitution deals with Revelation 13:1. The beast has seven heads and ten horns. In Revelation 17 those heads and horns are defined. The heads are identified as mountains, while the horns are identified as kings. This changes the whole picture of what the beast is symbolically to what it is literally. Now Rev.13:1 can be read as follows with just the items discussed thus far. And I saw a beast rise up out of the sea having seven mountains and ten kings. That is a simple and easy word substitution. Know that this will happen many times throughout the Bible..
Now, getting back to the questions. The question is, where is Satan? If this question can be answered, you will have eliminated some others. Some prophecy teachers believe that Satan is the beast, or that Satan is the false prophet, which is misleading and puts a stumbling block square in the road to a proper interpretation. I almost always get this question. How can you know who the beast is when he cannot be revealed? 2nd Thess. Chapter 2 states that he cannot be revealed, until something is removed first. Most scholars have this part right. That is a picture of the Rapture. What they have wrong is that Satan and the beast are not the same individual. Satan cannot be revealed until after the rapture, but he is not the beast. Therefore, I can identify the beast and his false prophet. People say prove it. So I did. I told them how to understand using the keys that I have mentioned. Revelation 13 is a parable, but God is not giving the definition, or the explanation. This one is for us to figure out. Ok, so where is Satan? In the book of Job, we get a view of Satan's abilities. In one scene, he is discussing with God about Job. Question, where is God? He is in heaven. Also, in his conversation with God Satan is talking as if he knows and has seen Job. God declares that he can do whatever he wants to Job, but he was not allowed to kill him. Now we know something else about Satan. He also has access to the Earth, and can affect peoples lives. So, it appears that Satan can be everywhere he wants to be, on Earth or in heaven. We know Satan and his angels will be cast out of heaven as per Revelation 12. This would further the idea that he is now in heaven. We also see Satan one other time, when he tempted Christ during his time on Earth. It says that he was taken to the wilderness to be tempted of Satan? Most people, and rightly so, have thought the wilderness to be a place on Earth, but this is a parable I believe. The Lord was in the wilderness and was tempted by Satan, but the wilderness is in heaven. This parable is read in Isaiah 35. It is the wilderness and the solitary place where the redeemed of the Lord walk. So, this last item being the most hard to prove, suffice it to say, that when Rev.12 says Satan will be cast out, he must be there in heaven to be cast out. Alright, now we can answer a couple questions. One, Satan is himself, and he is in heaven. Therefore, he is not the beast or the false prophet. These three work together, but each has his own identity.
Now to dissect Revelation 13. As I have already stated, Revelation 13 is a word substitution parable. The seven heads are seven mountains and the ten horns are ten kings. Ok, we know from this description that the beast as described is a group of possibly ten countries. This brings me to another point. There are three definitions for the beast in Revelation 13. The first is a group of countries rising up out of the sea. The second is in Rev.13:11 and is a beast with two horns (kings). Remember horns are kings as per Rev. 17. Finally, there is a beast who is identified by the number 666. It is this last beast that causes all to recieve a mark and that no man can buy and sell save he who has the mark, his number, or his name. There are three items here. Nowhere does it say that the mark is the number 666. This might have been a good guess 20 yrs. ago , but it is pretty hard to believe. Imagine people running around with a mark of 666 on their right hands. It sounds like a cartoon, but this is what the prophecy teachers want you to believe. Ok, another problem that sounds like a cartoon is the interpretation of the word "all." They want you to believe that no man could buy or sell if they did not worship the beast and take his mark. Interpreting the word "all" to mean everyone in the world. This is not the case. For one, we know that the beast is made up of only possibly ten countries. Everyone in this world lives in roughly 190 countries. I don't think we could possibly mean everyone. How about, all of those people concerned with the mark. Also, how do you cause all people concerned to receive a mark, and why? The most obvious way to mark everyone is at the voting booth. All people, rich and poor, small and great, or free and bond are potential voters. So, Mahmoud Abbas was elected president of the Palestinian Authority, and in the process all voters received an indelible ink mark on their right hands. This mark was to prevent double voting and corruption in the election. Ok, we have a mark. It is not 666. At this point he fits the part, but not completely. Still, there is no ready identification of 666 concerning him. This election was in January 2005.
Back to Rev.13. We have seven mountains and ten kings. Prophecy teachers want us to believe that a city with seven mountains is the seat of the antichrist and he rules with ten nations. Their logical conclusion was the Europe Union and the Vatican. This started the revived Roman empire theory. This theory has been around since the reformation. It is hard to believe this charade has gone on so long. Teachers are still preaching the Revived Roman Empire. This theory had some validity before the twentieth century and now has to be eliminated. None of these teachers could have predicted the fall of the Ottoman Empire and its division into so many separate sovereign nations. Back to our word substitution. There is an interesting item here concerning the word mountains in scripture. The word mountains can have two meanings. It can be either a mountain range, or a nation. This is the hardest part of this whole exercise, trying to figure out what mountains are describing. Teachers will have you believe it is a city with seven mountains. In actual fact, mountains here are referring to nations. This also pertains to the head wound. The wound was not a literal head wound at all, but was a nation that was wounded. The beast's head or nation was wounded and was healed. This is the Palestinian Authority after the beginning of the Oslo Accords. The land that Israel possessed was now being given back to the Palestinians and the beast's nation is being healed. Ok, so now I have seven nations and ten kings, Rev.13:1. Why do I have three more kings than nations? It seems I have a king for each nation, but three left over. In Daniel in says the beast subdued three kings. These three kings don't necessarily have to be from different countries. It seems so, but is not expressly mentioned. It is another parable. The three kings who were subdued by the beast were Israeli Prime Ministers. These three Prime Ministers all served during the seven years of the Oslo Accords and were voted out of office because of terror perpetrated during Yasser Arafat's rule. Now, I am down to seven nations. These seven nations will wage war. I can easily see seven nations that will wage war here very soon; Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, Iran and the Palestinian Authority or Iraq, and there opponent Israel. This is exactly the same beast that is presented in Rev.17, just in a slightly different appearance. In Rev. 17, five nations attacked Israel and five fell, Israel was and the one that was, and the one that came later was the Palestinian Authority. That was a picture of Israel's war of Independence. Literally, this was the beast being born. The war in 1967 is the beast rising up out of the sea in Rev.13:1. It was the unresolved issues of this conflict that resulted in the Oslo Accords of 1993. This seven year peace treaty was confirmed by Yitzhak Rabin and Yasser Arafat.
Now, there is another beast in Rev.13:11. This beast has two horns or kings. This is a picture of the Palestinian Authority after the elections of January 2006. This is when Hamas ran in the elections and won a majority in parliament. Now the P.A. was a country with two kings. Abbas was the President and Ismail Haniyeh was the Prime Minister. Here is where the problem with money came about. Western Nations did not want to donate money to a known terrorist organization so looked for a way they could still fund Abbas's P.A., but not let any money get to Hamas. This is when the number 666 identified an individual. The temporary international mechanism was adopted on June 16, 2006. This program allowed Western Nations to donate funds directly to Abbas, while bypassing Hamas. If you were a member of Fatah, or on Abbas's payroll you got paid. This is how the people were allowed to buy and sell. They received salaries, whereas before the mechanism, they had no way of getting paid from the Govenment. Hamas did not recieve salaries. Also, Hamas did not recieve the mark of the beast. They boycotted the elections for President in Jan. 2005.
It is more obvious who is being talked about the closer you get to the end.
In conclusion, to my three beast definitions. Mahmoud Abbas fits all three definitions. He was a member of the P.A. when it was formed. He took over from Yasser Arafat after his death. He was one of the two kings of the second beast in Rev.13:11. Lastly, he is the one identified by the number 666, which could have been Arafat had he lived.
Now, concerning the the false prophet. The following four verses below all refer to the false prophet, Ishmail Haniyeh.
Rev.13:11- and I beheld another beast coming up out of the Earth, and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev.13:12- And he exercises all the power of the first beast before him, and causes the earth and them which dwell therein, to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev.13:13- "And he does great wonders, so that he makes fire come down from heaven on the Earth in the sight of men".
Rev.13:15- And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast, should be killed.
Hamas exercised all the power of the first beast (Abbas's P.A.) because they were now an equal partner in the Government. Also, the leader of Hamas caused them to worship or honor the first beast because Hamas would not honor the first beast. The first beast was the PA without Hamas as a member. The image of the beast is what the Government of Mahmoud Abbas represented. Verse 12 does not mention the image yet, we are just informed that the false prophet caused them to worship the first beast. Verse 14 and 15 gives the details of how that worshipping or honor was to commence. An image was created of the first beast that he (the false prophet) caused to be honored. This image of the beast is three items; the recognition of Israel, the honoring of all prior Palestinian agreements, and a renunciation of terror.
The last question I think that needs addressed is how do you know the timing is right? Meaning, there have been so many translations, how do you know that this one is correct? This is a question I always get asked. The answer, in my mind, is sort of a mix between two different prophecies. The first is the seven day prophecy as recorded in Genesis. It is a similtude between this and the amount of recorded time that has already happened on Earth. In the book of Peter, God says one day to him is as a thousand years. If that idea is applied to the Genesis creation, everyday that God created something one thousand years passed. Finally, on the last day he rested from his work, and his rest was one thousand years or one of God's days. This was one full week or 7000 years. After God's rest he started his work again, and he created Adam. Starting with Adam, it was approximately 4000 years to the time of Christ. Also, we know that Christ was here roughly 2000 years ago. If God was to be consistant with his one week schedule, then we could expect his day of rest to fall somewhere after the year two thousand. 4000 plus 2000 is six days and on the seventh he rested for one thousand years. This is not an exact estimate, but it can put you in the right ballpark when searching for the correct timing of Revelation. This is the estimate. The next item is more exact. Daniel 9:27 says that he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week. Many in Hebrew is Rab. This was a covenant confirmed with Yitzhak Rabin. It was the beginning of land for peace, or the Oslo Accords. When you see this agreement happen you should be aware that this prophecy will last seven years. There is only one problem with this item. Prior to it happening, everyone thought that the end of the seventh year of the agreement God would return and begin his rest. Well, that did not happen. The reason was a logical misinterpretation. It just mentions that this agreement must occur along with the prophecies mentioned, not that they would all happen and end on the last day of the seventh year. This has thrown everyone watching offtrack for a time. Although, this was not such a terrible mistake if the watcher could see the right answer and get his, or her perspective back. When you have these two items coinciding at the expected time, then you know Revelation can be interpreted with accuracy. The events should start happening, as they have, as I have recorded in this letter.
May God bless all who read this letter.
Michae1
Michael, Your article is way to long, and covers to much ground to respond to. Question, are these your thoughts, or are you quoting the thoughts of another person?
But I do have one question for you.
You wrote, "This would further the idea that he (Satan) is now in heaven."
Phil asks, "What heaven are you speaking of? Is it the heavens above the earth, or before the throne of God? Also how did you Scripturally come to that conclusion?"
Phil LaSpino
: LaSpino3 Sat Jul 16, 2011 - 06:18:33
Michael, Your article is way to long, and covers to much ground to respond to. Question, are these your thoughts, or are you quoting the thoughts of another person?
But I do have one question for you.
You wrote, "This would further the idea that he (Satan) is now in heaven."
Phil asks, "What heaven are you speaking of? Is it the heavens above the earth, or before the throne of God? Also how did you Scripturally come to that conclusion?"
Phil LaSpino
I wrote this letter on July 6th. It may be too long, but it had to be in order to cover the material. I can't be concerned with whether a person has enough patience to read for five minutes. I have to be concerned with conveying an accurate message.
Concerning your question, the answer is in the writing. Satan still has access to God, as he did in the days of Job. Satan's fall from grace should not be confused with his being cast out of heaven in Revelation 12. These are two separate incidents. Revelation 12 is the second time he will fall, and this is literal. Once he is cast to the Earth, he will no longer have access to the throne of God. This will be for three and a half years. Once God returns to the Earth, Satan will be bound for a thousand years.
Michael, I meant no disrespect when I asked if you wrote the article. Also, I find it more advantages to post long articles in shorter parts. Just make the readers aware of it.
I have another question, "When you say Satan still has access in heaven, I assume you mean before the throne of God, is that correct?
But if I am to understand the text, and context of Rev.12, is there any way that Satan and his demons were cast forever out of heaven when Christ assended into heaven, Acts 1:9? Had He not already defeated Satan (death and hell) at the cross? Christ's kingdom was already established in heaven, see the Lord's prayer, but not on earth, making me understand that Satan was cast out. ::shrug::
Phil LaSpino
: LaSpino3 Sun Jul 17, 2011 - 16:48:56
I have another question, "When you say Satan still has access in heaven, I assume you mean before the throne of God, is that correct?
But if I am to understand the text, and context of Rev.12, is there any way that Satan and his demons were cast forever out of heaven when Christ assended into heaven, Acts 1:9? Had He not already defeated Satan (death and hell) at the cross? Christ's kingdom was already established in heaven, see the Lord's prayer, but not on earth, making me understand that Satan was cast out. ::shrug::
Phil LaSpino
Yes, that is correct. He has a way of communicating with God. Read the verses I have pasted here. It describes a place in full view of those in heaven. This is where Satan is. He has access to the Earth, and this place which is described.
_________________________
This is Luke 16:
19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
_____________________________
Satan has not been cast out yet, but he is going to be very soon. Rev. 12 is when this happens...Christ defeated Satan because of the cross. You may look at that as happening at that exact moment. Symbolically, that is what happened. Literally, it doesn't happen until after the millennium when New Jerusalem comes to the Earth and God communes with his people forever...Michae1
I don't mean to be hard to get along with, but it seems that your saying two different things to me.
First you said Satan is still in heaven: Now in your last post you mention Luke 16.
Christ is telling the story, some calling it a parable. As you said, its about a rich man and a beggar. Jesus tells it before he dies, so He, and the Jews are still under law, and not under grace, or the new covenant = (no church yet.)
Now Paradise, in the Greek, in the later Jewish usage and in the N.T. is put for the abode, or place of the condemned, as well as the blessed after death.
There is the inferior paradise in Hades, as well as the region of the blessed. Luke 23:43, Jesus tell the thief on the cross, "To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise," this would be the place of the blessed, or as Luke describes it, "Abraham's bosom."
Then Scriptures speak of the paradise of God, the celestial paradise, where the spirits of the just, the saved dwell with God, as in,
2 Cor.12:4, "He was caught up into paradise." in verse 3, "Whether in the body, or out of the body.)"
Rev.2:7, "In the midst of the paradise of God," where the imagery is drawn from Gen.2:8, "The LORD planted a garden eastward in Eden."
We also know the new city Jerusalem is being prepared for us in heaven, and I am sure Satan is not there.
Speaking of Satan as being cast down from heaven,
Rev.12:12, "The devil is come down unto you," compare with ver.9, "And the great dragon was cast out, --- he was cast out to the earth, compare also with ver.10, "A loud voice saying in heaven, "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser (Satan) of our brethren is cast down," compare with ver.11, "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony."
So if I am reading this correctly, Satan was cast out by the blood of the Lamb. With this thought in mind, once Jesus was taken into heaven, the heavens were cleansed. Satan therefore cannot be in heaven, but on the earth. Now if you mean the atmosphere above the earth, I have no problem with that, for he is the prince of the power of the air. After he is cast out, it is said he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child, the woman being Israel, note verse 1; 12 stars = 12 tribes.
Cast down means to throw, to cast, with a greater or less degree of force as modified by the context; A transitive verb that expresses an action that passes from the agent to the object. Also sequel to follow, dative, a term applied to the case of nouns which usually follows verbs that express giving, or some act directed to an object.
So in your estimation, is Satan with the those in the paradise? in hell waiting for judgement? in the paradise where the beggar is seen in Abraham's bosom? or in our atmosphere, and earth? or in the throne room of God?
I believe he has already having been cast to the earth, persecuting both Jews, and the church?
Phil LaSpino
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."
I do believe that Satan still has access to God's throne in order to "accuse" us before the Lord. Like he did with Job.
The point being, that once he is cast down, he will no longer be able to do that. I believe this takes place about the same time as the Antichrist sits in the temple proclaiming himself to be "god." I believe that Satan will enter into the Antichrist's physical body as he did with Judas.
Blessings
: Joyfullee Mon Jul 18, 2011 - 13:48:45
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."
I do believe that Satan still has access to God's throne in order to "accuse" us before the Lord. Like he did with Job.
The point being, that once he is cast down, he will no longer be able to do that. I believe this takes place about the same time as the Antichrist sits in the temple proclaiming himself to be "god." I believe that Satan will enter into the Antichrist's physical body as he did with Judas.
Blessings
Thank you very much Joyfullee.
This part is to LaSpino3. Instead of trying find a contradiction in every sentence, use common sense and apply what has been given. The story of Job describes how Satan can operate. He speaks with God, he has access to the Earth, and he can affect peoples lives. Now, read Rev. 12. He is cast out of heaven. What part of that do you not accept? I'm not going to get into all the different ideas that you have as to this part of heaven, or that part of hell, because it really doesn't matter. The abilities that Satan displays are in Job. Since I have never been to heaven or hell, or at least I have no recollection of such, I can only speak as to Satan's abilities. I believe this argument that you are trying to promote has to do with the validity of Revelation itself, or the timing of it. People who follow this course of questioning to my knowledge are preterists. I am not a preterist. Also, if you don't accept my article in these points about Satan, then read the other parts that you can accept. Michae1
: michael777 Mon Jul 18, 2011 - 14:27:03
: Joyfullee Mon Jul 18, 2011 - 13:48:45
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."
I do believe that Satan still has access to God's throne in order to "accuse" us before the Lord. Like he did with Job.
The point being, that once he is cast down, he will no longer be able to do that. I believe this takes place about the same time as the Antichrist sits in the temple proclaiming himself to be "god." I believe that Satan will enter into the Antichrist's physical body as he did with Judas.
Blessings
Thank you very much Joyfullee.
This part is to LaSpino3. Instead of trying find a contradiction in every sentence, use common sense and apply what has been given. The story of Job describes how Satan can operate. He speaks with God, he has access to the Earth, and he can affect peoples lives. Now, read Rev. 12. He is cast out of heaven. What part of that do you not accept? I'm not going to get into all the different ideas that you have as to this part of heaven, or that part of hell, because it really doesn't matter. The abilities that Satan displays are in Job. Since I have never been to heaven or hell, or at least I have no recollection of such, I can only speak as to Satan's abilities. I believe this argument that you are trying to promote has to do with the validity of Revelation itself, or the timing of it. People who follow this course of questioning to my knowledge are preterists. I am not a preterist. Also, if you don't accept my article in these points about Satan, then read the other parts that you can accept. Michae1
You're welcome Michael.
I'd like to ask you what you think it's going to be like or how will it be different or effect born-again, Holy Spirit filled believers during that time, once Satan no longer has access to God to accuse believers? That is of course if you believe we'll still be here, as in post-trib rapture. Have you ever given this any thought?
Blessings
: Joyfullee link=topic=55028.msg918141#msg918141
You're welcome Michael.
I'd like to ask you what you think it's going to be like or how will it be different or effect born-again, Holy Spirit filled believers during that time, once Satan no longer has access to God to accuse believers? That is of course if you believe we'll still be here, as in post-trib rapture. Have you ever given this any thought?
Blessings
Yes, I have given it some thought. It is in the letter in a vague manner. Satan will be cast out of heaven after the rapture. This is why he cannot be revealed to Christians. Christians will be in heaven. Satan will be revealed to those on Earth, but he will not call himself Satan. Most likely, he will be the Muslim Mahdi, and they will worship him. But, Christians have nothing to fear, so I say bring it on. I need some excitement...
Michael, you wrote, "read Rev. 12. He is cast out of heaven. What part of that do you not accept?"
Phil replies, "Its your time frame I disagree with. What does Satan in Job have to do with anything after Christ went into heaven, 1400 years later? I see your not very interested in details. I can tell you this for sure, Satan is not in the throne room of God at this present time, nor will he ever be again. There are two things we do know about him. He is called the prince of the power of the air, and he moves too and fro in the earth.
Air, as that which we breathe, the atmosphere, as opposed to the higher, purer region. 1 Thes.4:17, "To meet the Lord in the air." 1 Cor.14:9, "Ye shall speak into the air." To beat the air. 1 Cor.9:26. To speak or act in vain. In Eph.2:2, Satan is called, "The prince of the power of the air," as prince of the spirits of the air, as those who dwell in the air or have power over it, according to the later Jewish belief.
Thanks for the discussion.
Phil LaSpino
: LaSpino3 Tue Jul 19, 2011 - 19:15:45
Michael, you wrote, "read Rev. 12. He is cast out of heaven. What part of that do you not accept?"
Phil replies, "Its your time frame I disagree with. What does Satan in Job have to do with anything after Christ went into heaven, 1400 years later? I see your not very interested in details. I can tell you this for sure, Satan is not in the throne room of God at this present time, nor will he ever be again. There are two things we do know about him. He is called the prince of the power of the air, and he moves too and fro in the earth.
Air, as that which we breathe, the atmosphere, as opposed to the higher, purer region. 1 Thes.4:17, "To meet the Lord in the air." 1 Cor.14:9, "Ye shall speak into the air." To beat the air. 1 Cor.9:26. To speak or act in vain. In Eph.2:2, Satan is called, "The prince of the power of the air," as prince of the spirits of the air, as those who dwell in the air or have power over it, according to the later Jewish belief.
Thanks for the discussion.
Phil LaSpino
Rev. 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Question: Is this not speaking of the end times?
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.
7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:.."
Question: Where does it say in God's Word that there came a time after the death of Jesus that Satan no longer had access to God to "accuse the brethren?
We know Satan still roams the earth looking for whom he may devour.
We know he is the prince of principalities and of the air.
It states in Rev. that Satan is cast down, in my understanding at about the time the Antichrist sits in the temple proclaiming himself to be "god."
Blessings
Joyfullee, I sure could have used your help these past few years. Although, I'm sure you've had some work of your own. It's evident in your words. For my part, I hear the questions and I know the answer is there, but I usually do not have the time to get very deep into the conversation. I am in many, many forums, and I always have much unfinished work. So, I sit down and write these letters. It's sort of a collection of answers to questions that have been asked me, and I have researched over the years. It took about ten hours to write the first post, and I already knew the information. Sometimes, I know the answer is there, but I have to work for it. My memory is starting to forget I need it, I guess.
Thank you for your help, God knows I need it. Michae1
: michael777 Tue Jul 19, 2011 - 22:00:12
Joyfullee, I sure could have used your help these past few years. Although, I'm sure you've had some work of your own. It's evident in your words. For my part, I hear the questions and I know the answer is there, but I usually do not have the time to get very deep into the conversation. I am in many, many forums, and I always have much unfinished work. So, I sit down and write these letters. It's sort of a collection of answers to questions that have been asked me, and I have researched over the years. It took about ten hours to write the first post, and I already knew the information. Sometimes, I know the answer is there, but I have to work for it. My memory is starting to forget I need it, I guess.
Thank you for your help, God knows I need it. Michae1
I hear ya! ::smile::
You're welcome Michael.
PM me any time as I'm always HAPPY to help.
Blessings
: michael777 Tue Jul 19, 2011 - 15:44:17
: Joyfullee link=topic=55028.msg918141#msg918141
You're welcome Michael.
I'd like to ask you what you think it's going to be like or how will it be different or effect born-again, Holy Spirit filled believers during that time, once Satan no longer has access to God to accuse believers? That is of course if you believe we'll still be here, as in post-trib rapture. Have you ever given this any thought?
Blessings
Yes, I have given it some thought. It is in the letter in a vague manner. Satan will be cast out of heaven after the rapture. This is why he cannot be revealed to Christians. Christians will be in heaven. Satan will be revealed to those on Earth, but he will not call himself Satan. Most likely, he will be the Muslim Mahdi, and they will worship him. But, Christians have nothing to fear, so I say bring it on. I need some excitement...
Satan isn't in Heaven. Wickedness has no part in the Kingdom of Heaven. He has been cast down long ago in pre-history.
: Lively Stone Tue Jul 19, 2011 - 23:02:07
: michael777 Tue Jul 19, 2011 - 15:44:17
: Joyfullee link=topic=55028.msg918141#msg918141
You're welcome Michael.
I'd like to ask you what you think it's going to be like or how will it be different or effect born-again, Holy Spirit filled believers during that time, once Satan no longer has access to God to accuse believers? That is of course if you believe we'll still be here, as in post-trib rapture. Have you ever given this any thought?
Blessings
Yes, I have given it some thought. It is in the letter in a vague manner. Satan will be cast out of heaven after the rapture. This is why he cannot be revealed to Christians. Christians will be in heaven. Satan will be revealed to those on Earth, but he will not call himself Satan. Most likely, he will be the Muslim Mahdi, and they will worship him. But, Christians have nothing to fear, so I say bring it on. I need some excitement...
Satan isn't in Heaven. Wickedness has no part in the Kingdom of Heaven. He has been cast down long ago in pre-history.
Rev. tells us that Satan is cast down and no longer able to accuse believers. I believe that passage is speaking of endtimes events.
There is a difference between "being" in heaven, as in residence and having access to God.
Blessings LS
Rev. 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Blessings
Joyfullee---I don't know why your posts aren't showing up for me, so I went into your posts to read them.
We mustn't forget that there are different heavens---first, second and third, etc. Satan has no place in the ultimate heaven where God's throne resides. As he is of the angelic order, his presence in the first and second heavens, just like God's angels are also, doesn't preclude him the ability to communicate with God and accuse us.
: Lively Stone Tue Jul 19, 2011 - 23:02:07
Satan isn't in Heaven. Wickedness has no part in the Kingdom of Heaven. He has been cast down long ago in pre-history.
Does this fit your "Parenthesis" doctrines of Revelation Chapter Seven?
Since you insist that this chapter twelve points back to Jesus' birth as the "Man Child," you now go a step further and proclaim Satan, the god of this world who is also the prince of the power of the air is buried and his power gone before creation?
Think of this. Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
If Satan was in the place of power of deceiving the whole world you describe before history, how does he deceive anyone; there was no one before Adam for him to deceive?
No sister, today he accuses us before God day and night in Revelation 12:10, "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."
Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant? (Maybe Lively Stone) Doth (Lively Stone) fear God for nought? Do you really think this same scenario is not occurring today concerning us?
: Lively Stone Tue Jul 19, 2011 - 23:29:02
Joyfullee---I don't know why your posts aren't showing up for me, so I went into your posts to read them.
We mustn't forget that there are different heavens---first, second and third, etc. Satan has no place in the ultimate heaven where God's throne resides. As he is of the angelic order, his presence in the first and second heavens, just like God's angels are also, doesn't preclude him the ability to communicate with God and accuse us.
My point has been, Satan does go before God to accuse us still, just as he did in Job.
Job 1:6 Now there came a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.
Blessings
: Joyfullee Wed Jul 20, 2011 - 10:58:55
: Lively Stone Tue Jul 19, 2011 - 23:29:02
Joyfullee---I don't know why your posts aren't showing up for me, so I went into your posts to read them.
We mustn't forget that there are different heavens---first, second and third, etc. Satan has no place in the ultimate heaven where God's throne resides. As he is of the angelic order, his presence in the first and second heavens, just like God's angels are also, doesn't preclude him the ability to communicate with God and accuse us.
My point has been, Satan does go before God to accuse us still, just as he did in Job.
Job 1:6 Now there came a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.
Blessings
Where Satan is doesn't stop him from trying to accuse us. He is a spiritual being and not limited by time or space. His banishment from Heaven doesn't stop him from doing what he does well.
Let's just say for a moment that Satan is a man walking on this earth, everyone has been marked. God is also alive and well on this earth enveloping his people with his seal. Were does that put us in Revelation?
: Lively Stone Wed Jul 20, 2011 - 11:20:30
: Joyfullee Wed Jul 20, 2011 - 10:58:55
: Lively Stone Tue Jul 19, 2011 - 23:29:02
Joyfullee---I don't know why your posts aren't showing up for me, so I went into your posts to read them.
We mustn't forget that there are different heavens---first, second and third, etc. Satan has no place in the ultimate heaven where God's throne resides. As he is of the angelic order, his presence in the first and second heavens, just like God's angels are also, doesn't preclude him the ability to communicate with God and accuse us.
My point has been, Satan does go before God to accuse us still, just as he did in Job.
Job 1:6 Now there came a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.
Blessings
Where Satan is doesn't stop him from trying to accuse us. He is a spiritual being and not limited by time or space. His banishment from Heaven doesn't stop him from doing what he does well.
Well, God's Word says: to present themselves before the Lord.
That's good enough for me.
Blessings
: Lively Stone Wed Jul 20, 2011 - 11:20:30
: Joyfullee Wed Jul 20, 2011 - 10:58:55
: Lively Stone Tue Jul 19, 2011 - 23:29:02
Joyfullee---I don't know why your posts aren't showing up for me, so I went into your posts to read them.
We mustn't forget that there are different heavens---first, second and third, etc. Satan has no place in the ultimate heaven where God's throne resides. As he is of the angelic order, his presence in the first and second heavens, just like God's angels are also, doesn't preclude him the ability to communicate with God and accuse us.
My point has been, Satan does go before God to accuse us still, just as he did in Job.
Job 1:6 Now there came a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.
Blessings
Where Satan is doesn't stop him from trying to accuse us. He is a spiritual being and not limited by time or space. His banishment from Heaven doesn't stop him from doing what he does well.
Rev. 12
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. (3 1/2 years)
Matt. 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (16) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: (21) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kindgom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knows that he hath but a short time.
Seems very clear to me. All of this happens at the beginning of the great tribulation when the Antichrist sits in the temple proclaiming himself to be "god," which lasts for 3 1/2 years.
Blessings
Satan isn't omni-present is he? How DID Satan approach God in order to ask to test Job?
: Joyfullee Wed Jul 20, 2011 - 12:32:45
Seems very clear to me. All of this happens at the beginning of the great tribulation when the Antichrist sits in the temple proclaiming himself to be "god," which lasts for 3 1/2 years.
Blessings
That's a pretty good assessment. I think if you can be pretty good, then bullseye is not far behind.
: Jaime Wed Jul 20, 2011 - 12:35:06
Satan isn't omni-present is he? How DID Satan approach God in order to ask to test Job?
By going to and fro in the Earth.
I don't think satan has a throne, he zips here and there. In fact Beelzebub means Lord of the flies.
A fly is constantly flying here and there.
Does anyone agree with this prophecy?
There's apparently a huge misunderstanding some brethren here have about the heavenly and the earthly, which can make the event of Satan's casting down to earth in Rev.12:7 forward difficult.
In 1 Cor.15 and 2 Cor.5, Apostle Paul gave us some detailed descriptions about the existence of the "spiritual body" vs. our flesh body. He even made a distinction with the phrases "image of the earthy" vs. the "image of the heavenly" (1 Cor.15:49).
I use the term 'dimensions of existence' to explain this difference according to Scripture. This earthly realm we live in is a material dimension. But the heavenly is a different dimension, one of spirit. It's very important to not confuse the two.
What is Apostle Paul's "image of the earthy"? It's flesh born man.
Then what is Apostle Paul's "image of the heavenly"? It's the "spiritual body" he also taught there in 1 Cor.15:44, an image likeness body appearance in the heavenly dimension, a body like Christ's resurrected body that could suddenly appear and disappear among His disciples after His resurrection.
In John 4:24, Apostle John said, "God is a Spirit", and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth. One of the reasons why the 1611 KJV Bible is still the best English translation is because the difference between flesh and spirit is clearly distinguished from each other, while more modern translations get away from that concept.
Rev 12:7-8
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
KJV
What does that mean, "neither was their place found any more in heaven" after that war with Archangel Michael?
Satan and his angels do not have flesh bodies, nor is it anywhere written that they will. Yet per several Bible Scriptures we are shown angels appearing to flesh man or women, with their appearance having the likeness of young men (Gen.19 for example).
Those angels did not take on flesh bodies to appear here on earth in our material dimension. Nor did our Lord Jesus take on another flesh body to appear to His disciples in Acts in a closed off room after His resurrection.
When Apostle John was "in the Spirit" on The Lord's Day, and likewise with what God gave His OT prophets to see by vision, then what device did God use to communicate that to them? Flesh eyes, fleshy brain? No, spiritual eyes and mind, because God said early on in Gen.6 that Adam also is flesh, meaning flesh and what else? Spirit. We each have a spirit inside our flesh body, and that's how we worship God Who is a Spirit. It is also how He works through us by The Holy Spirit, if you're one of His.
Yet Satan is not... God, nor even a little god. He is a cherub per Ezek.28, a created angelic being with an image likeness like we have, that of man's image, which originates from God's Own Image in the heavenly.
Thus Satan's place in Heaven right now is in a place of separation from where God is, but like someone pointed to the Book of Job, Satan with his angels are still able to appear before God's Throne in Heaven, and give a report, accusing us. That's his "place" in Heaven right now, which is pointing to the heavenly dimension of spirit.
And there are only 2 different dimensions pointed out in God's Word, this earthy and the heavenly.
So when Satan and his angels are cast out per that Rev.12 Scripture, where ELSE do they have that they can go to? The answer: THIS earthy dimension we live in, our material dimension here on earth, is the only place Satan and his angels can be cast out of heaven to after that war in heaven.
Mark 16:5-6
5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted.
6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.
KJV
: michael777 Wed Jul 06, 2011 - 15:58:46
The Beast Revelation
This letter is dedicated to all Christians.
The following letter is a summary of Revelation 13. Its purpose is to show the method used in finding the conclusions which have been stated. Nothing new has been added from my previous letters. It is more of a compilation of them all. This writing is the same material in different words. The Bible uses this same method of explanation. There are four Gospels. In each you see a different view of the same material. This can be beneficial because the meaning becomes more exact. Although, if this is a first time reader, then this will all be news to you. With that in mind, here we go.
The first thing that should be addressed when doing any study of Bible prophecy is what questions do I intend to answer. Some of these questions can seem a little simplistic, but their answers are much more complicated. In my studies there were only a few questions that I saw as needing an answer. My questions were very simple. First, who is this individual who is identified by the number 666? Second, who is the false prophet and how does he make the whole world worship the beast whose number is 666. Another question has to do with these same individuals.
Daniel defines the term "beast", and he does it in the same context of the figurative language of a prophetic dream, that even includes 3 of the very same figures. So let's let scripture define and explain it:
Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth
beast shall be the fourth
kingdom upon earth.....
There is considerable agreement among Jewish and Christian scholars that the kingdoms represented by Daniel's
lion,
bear and
leopard, are the successive ancient kingdoms of
Babylon,
Medo-Persia and
Greece, followed by the fourth "terrible" beast, that is understood to be the Roman Empire. Now consider:
Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a
leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a
bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a
lion: and
the dragon gave him his power, and his
seat, and great authority. (Daniel also ascribes the masculine gender to his kingdom "beasts")
So John paints a picture of a composite beast using the same figures that Daniel did. What countries occupy the seats of those ancient kingdoms today?
Babylon = Iraq
Medo-Persia = Iran
ancient Greece = Syria-Lebanon
While these countries have some theological and political differences, they are all perfectly united through the power of the spirit of antichrist, and all follow THE false prophet Muhammad. We can see the power that Satan gave Muhammad's Islamic kingdom beast exercised, every day in the news, yet even some Christian folks are even today, too blind to see it.
: michael777 Wed Jul 06, 2011 - 15:58:46Could these two individuals be the same person, or for that matter Satan himself? Where is Satan during all this?
Satan is IN the people OF the world that reject the Son of God. Satan is IN the followers of THE false prophet Muhammad through the spirit of antichrist:
Surah 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten
a son!" 89
Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!1 John 2:22 .....
He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and
the Son. 23
Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.....
: michael777 Wed Jul 06, 2011 - 15:58:46That last question is very important. It actually goes straight to the answer of all the questions.
I couldn't agree more.
: michael777 Wed Jul 06, 2011 - 15:58:46Finally, when would someone expect to see these individuals on the Earth?
In the false prophet Muhammad's case, 1400 years ago. In the case of his 1.5 billion Islamic kingdom "beast" followers, that's 1/4 of mankind in the world today. Muhammad's orthodox followers continuing on in the Islamic conquest of the world and subjugation of all people to Muhammad's followers.
Even having to
deny the crucifixion of Christ, and thus the blood He shed for us all,
as an article of their faith in Muhammad alone:
Surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus ..... but they killed him not, nor crucified him ..... for of a surety they killed him not:-
: michael777 Wed Jul 06, 2011 - 15:58:46Literally, what time frame should I see them? Those are the questions. The answers are much more involved.
But not so involved for those with eyes to see it by employing sound hermeneutic principles and through the traditional historicist approach to Bible prophecy.
The "beast" of Revelation 13 being THE false prophet Muhammad's Islamic kingdom of the prior post, would seem very much to be confirmed by John's prophecy of 8 kings/beasts, since the Roman Empire was conquered by the Islamic First Jihad. Here is what John was assigned to write:
Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
An internet search reveals that no shortage of folks consider the first five "fallen" to be the successive kingdoms of Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia and ancient Greece. Considering John's assignment we can see that the 6th king (also kingdom "beast" as per the next verse) or the one that "is" in power as John penned the verse, was the Roman Empire. Just as John prophesied, the Roman Empire was conquered by the 7th king/beast that had "not yet come", which the historical record informs us was the Islamic First Jihad.
The Islamic Empire lost it's power - but not it's seat - after the Islamic First Jihad was mortally wounded in the Battle of Tours, France. Later on the two horned beast later "exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him" (or in the presence of), the Islamic beast. Choices for the horns are the Crusades - as a lambkin in name, with works of a dragon, or a later choice could be the western powers in the form of the British Mandate and/or Desert Storm. The Islamic Empire lost it's power for a short time but maintained the seat in the area that Satan gave it. The transfer of Western wealth through oil purchase and providing arms eventually healed the mortal wound of the Islamic beast, financing the Second Islamic Jihad in the image of the First Islamic Jihad.
It may be more constructive to recognize these seven "kings" in terms of the successive empire or kingdom reigns, since some kingdoms spanned periods longer than individual leaders, and particularly in light of the very next verse where we are brought back to our term "beast", which Daniel has already defined for us.
(Strongs - kings - New Testament Greek Definition: 935 basileus {bas-il-yooce'} probably from 939 (through the notion of a foundation of power)
Revelation 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
In this verse we find an 8th beast that "was" - before John - but "is not". So the 8th beast isn't about the Roman Empire either, but it is "of the seven". Considering the identity of our leopard-bear-lion beast in the prior post, today seated in Syria, Iran and Iraq, we find that it fits as having been "was", and also as having been "of the seven" (and as Strong's allows of the seventh), but is not the "is" "beast" or kingdom, of John's day - the Roman Empire.
"..... it is said, five of the seven Kings are fallen, and one is, and another is not yet come; and the Beast that was and is not, being wounded to death with a sword, he is the eighth, and of the seven: he was therefore a collateral part of the seventh." - Isaac Newton
John writes to his first century audience:
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
Pete, Can you tell me why John writes this to his first century audience if the beast was not a reality in their day? Of what use would this information be to them unless they were, with wisdom, to calculate his number and recognize the one whom he wrote of?
The Roman Emperor we know as Nero Caesar had two common spelling for his name in the first century. One form was Nero Kesar but the Hebrew spelling is Neron Kesar. This is important because some ancient MSS (handwritten manuscripts) instead of using the number 666 have the number 616. If you add up the letter values in Hebrew (that's why it takes shrewdness-most people did not know Hebrew) Neron Caesar (Neron Kaisar) adds up to 666. Neron Kaisar = Nrwn Q(K)sr in Hebrew which used no vowels, was the linguistically correct Hebrew form and is found in the Jewish Talmud, in the writings of the community at Qumran where the Dead Sea Scrolls were found, and other rabbinical writings. No Jew would ever have thought of Nero except as rsq nwrn (Hebrew read left to right). But Nero Caesar (rsq nwr), the other spelling (alternate spellings were very common), adds up to 616, which is exactly the variant reading in a few New Testament Revelation manuscripts for the number of the Beast.
From agapebiblestudy.com
Not saying for sure but it's food for thought.
: raggthyme13 Sun Nov 08, 2015 - 04:55:25
John writes to his first century audience:
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
Pete, Can you tell me why John writes this to his first century audience ......
You may not be aware of this but your immediate audience hermeneutic was introduced by 17th century Roman church Jesuit Luis del Alcázar in a counter-reformation effort. In other words his attempt was conceived to deceive the reformers and divert their attention away from speculation about the Roman church and/or Pope being "The Antichrist" (I've posted on antichrist in the related thread). The reformers didn't buy the pop view. Neither did the church until it began to come into vogue during the 19th century. Visit the Wikipedia article on Alcazar section "Works".
Consider:
1Th 4:16 For
the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:1Th 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Was Paul talking to the Thessalonians or to the whole church? If Paul was only talking about himself and the Thessalonians as "we", and not the church as a whole - that is, you and me included -
then where is the historical record of the Lord's shout and Paul and the Thessalonians being caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air?Or the historical record of this:
Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things,
while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven,
shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
If the "times of the gentiles" in Jerusalem were fulfilled in 70 AD, then how is it that the Roman gentiles came back to whack another half million Jews less than 70 years later? How is it that gentiles ruled Jerusalem throughout the Christian era, and
right up until 1967 when Jews took control, if the times of the gentiles in Jerusalem were fulfilled in 70AD?
: raggthyme13 Sun Nov 08, 2015 - 04:55:25...... if the beast was not a reality in their day? Of what use would this information be to them unless they were, with wisdom, to calculate his number and recognize the one whom he wrote of?
The Roman Emperor we know as Nero Caesar had two common spelling for his name in the first century. One form was Nero Kesar but the Hebrew spelling is Neron Kesar. This is important because some ancient MSS (handwritten manuscripts) instead of using the number 666 have the number 616. If you add up the letter values in Hebrew (that's why it takes shrewdness-most people did not know Hebrew) Neron Caesar (Neron Kaisar) adds up to 666. Neron Kaisar = Nrwn Q(K)sr in Hebrew which used no vowels, was the linguistically correct Hebrew form and is found in the Jewish Talmud, in the writings of the community at Qumran where the Dead Sea Scrolls were found, and other rabbinical writings. No Jew would ever have thought of Nero except as rsq nwrn (Hebrew read left to right). But Nero Caesar (rsq nwr), the other spelling (alternate spellings were very common), adds up to 616, which is exactly the variant reading in a few New Testament Revelation manuscripts for the number of the Beast.
From agapebiblestudy.com
Not saying for sure but it's food for thought.
I'm not unfamiliar with preterist need to pull that gematria out of the hat, but could it be easier than that? While just as anecdotal as yours, are you familiar with some of THE false prophet Muhammad's follower's efforts at gematria? Try a bing search of - quran 666
"The truth is that This Quran is the 666 , The Book from The Lord of the Universe.
GOD made His Messenger a witness with the letter Qaf and the number 666."
"The sum of sura numbers from Sura 1 to Sura 36 is 666." etc. etc.
Have you ever explored a study entirely within the
traditional entire approach to prophecy of historicism, without trying to wring it through the filter of pre-conceived notions you hold from preterism? Would it really be that much of a surprise to find that this traditional approach of the reformers (and available evidence suggest the church for its first 1800 years) paints a bulls eye on Muhammad's back as THE false prophet of Revelation?
So who do you finger as THE false prophet in the first century, by Alcazar's hermeneutic? Who of that day was so significant as to be awarded the stature of being this person of the book of Revelation?
Rather than trying to sell a 20th century pop-eschatology spuriously conceived in the 17th century, why not quote and respond to the prior page post on John's chapter 13 leopard-bear-lion composite "beast" and explain what Nero had to do with a leopard, bear and lion?
How did Daniel define the term "beast", when introduced within the figurative language of his prophetic dream?
Why is it that Daniel's prophecy uses the very same figures that John did?
Do you ever wonder just how and why it was that Jerusalem went from the utter desolation of the beginning of the 19th century, to becoming one of the most technologically advanced and leading global economies and geopolitical focus of the world, over the short span of a couple hundred years?
Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
That reads more like a headline than an OT prophecy, doesn't it?
If Zionism was just some sort of a freaky accident of history then how did the Reformers and Puritans understand through Bible prophecy, and confidently predict it would take place, centuries before the restoration of Jews to their land ever began?
Do you wonder why it is that the orthodox followers among THE false prophet Muhammad's 1.5 billion people are slaughtering and subjugating Christians and other non-Muslims all around the world? Why they must deny the crucifixion of Christ and blaspheme the Son of God as articles of their faith in THE false prophet Muhammad alone?
I don't wonder if a vacation to Syria might wake some western church folks up a bit. Or to Nigeria perhaps. Do you ever find yourself unhappily on the anti-Zionist side of Israeli Muslims, as opposed to the side of Israeli Jews, Christians and other non-Muslim Arabs?
Please don't think I'm ignoring your replies when you post them, because mine are generally held up for a day or so until approved by a moderator.
The Beast Revelation of Revelation chapter 13
We as Christians do not have to speculate, OR, be at the mercy of man's vain thoughts, as to the truth of God's word. The scriptures themselves are its own interpreter~our work as
bible believers is to
trust God to reveal his truth to us. We live by
faith in God's testimony of what is truth, and what is a lie. The beast of Revelation 13 is
apostate Christianity as it leaves the true teachings of God, for man's own doctrines. The whole world will wonder after the beast, as a whole. They will be devil worshipers in the true sense of those words. Those who follow the beast are those whose names were not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, or from eternity. The false prophet are all prophets of the beast, who causes all to worship the beast, and if one refuses to do so, then those people cannot buy or sell, or, they will be not be accepted as true children of God, but as trouble makers, and false, and they shall be killed, or put to silence. Revelation 13 truly is not hard to put the proper senses of the highly symbolic languages used by John. But we use other scriptures to guide our understanding of Revelation~such as Matthew 24; 2nd Thess 2; 2nd Timothy 3:1-4:5; etc. As far as the number of the beast goes, God does not leave us wondering.
666 is 2/3 of what ever is under consideration. The prophet Zachariah will reveal what this number represents.
Zachariah 13:7-9~"Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God."
There is our answer to
666~but, who has the wisdom of God, so that they can understand? Not many. Most (2/3 those who had the mark of the beast) will be cut off that follows the beast, but a small remnant (1/3 those who had the seal of God, or who names were written in the book of life) shall be saved, as they pass through the fires of the great tribulation period! "The LORD is my God" who has opened the eyes of his servant!
: RB Sun Nov 08, 2015 - 07:15:30
The Beast Revelation of Revelation chapter 13
We as Christians do not have to speculate, ......
But didn't you go on to do just that?
: RB Sun Nov 08, 2015 - 07:15:30..... OR, be at the mercy of man's vain thoughts, as to the truth of God's word. The scriptures themselves are its own interpreter ......
I couldn't agree more.
: RB Sun Nov 08, 2015 - 07:15:30..... ~our work as bible believers is to trust God to reveal his truth to us. We live by faith in God's testimony of what is truth, and what is a lie. The beast of Revelation 13 is apostate Christianity as it leaves the true teachings of God, for man's own doctrines.
So how does scripture interpret apostate Christianity as having something to do with a leopard, bear and lion? I would appreciate very much if you begin your reply by answering that question.
When we
search scripture for interpretation through an adjacent hermeneutic, why do you suppose it is that we find Daniel's prophecy
uses these very same three figures when describing those
kingdom "beasts", also within the same context of the figurative language of a prophetic dream?
(as detailed in the last post on the prior page)
When we close our eyes to such a simple, stunning and profound interpretation revealed by scripture, what else might our having done so, close our eyes to?
: RB Sun Nov 08, 2015 - 07:15:30The whole world will wonder after the beast, as a whole.
"Will" wonder after the beast? Perhaps as John's prophecy looked forward to what was to come in his future.
But what might we find regarding
fulfilled prophecy, if we exercise a more scholarly ethnographic hermeneutic of "world", as Strong's suggests:
worldNew Testament Greek Definition:
3625 oikoumene {oy-kou-men'-ay}
feminine participle present passive of 3611 (as noun, by
implication of 1093); TDNT - 5:157,674; n f
AV - world 14, earth 1; 15
1) the inhabited earth
1a)
the portion of the earth inhabited by the Greeks, in
distinction from the lands of the barbarians1b)
the Roman empire, all the subjects of the empire1c) the whole inhabited earth, the world
1d) the inhabitants of the earth, men
2) the universe, the world
If you look at a map of the spiritual condition of the prophet John's whole "world", outside of that tiny little strip of land of Israel protected by the democracy of the Israeli Jewish State, virtually everyone in John's world does indeed wonder after THE false prophet Muhammad's Islamic kingdom "beast".
: RB Sun Nov 08, 2015 - 07:15:30They will be devil worshipers in the true sense of those words.
Besides their being commanded to fight and slay non-Muslims (and specifically Jews and Christians) as Satan binds on them in the Quran, wouldn't you say the following might qualify as devil worship "in the true sense of those words", that is
in fact engaged in by not only virtually everyone in John's whole "world" but by
1/4 of mankind around the world today, as articles of their "faith" in THE false prophet Muhammad alone?
Surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus ..... but
they killed him not, nor crucified him ..... for of a surety they killed him not:-
Surah 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten
a son!" 89
Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!Do those strike you as words that would be inspired by the jealous fallen angel named Satan?
While I've no sympathy for the apostate church, does even the vast majority of the apostate church deny that Jesus is the Son of God or deny His crucifixion and shed blood?
: RB Sun Nov 08, 2015 - 07:15:30Those who follow the beast are those whose names were not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, or from eternity. The false prophet are all prophets ......
While suggesting that may fit your pre-conceived notion, does it fit the Koine Greek that indicates a single individual? Try to make sense of your own sentence: "The false prophet are all prophets....."
: RB Sun Nov 08, 2015 - 07:15:30..... of the beast, who causes all to worship the beast, .......
Virtually 100% of John's world worship the Islamic beast.
The pinnacle of worship in Islam is Jihad, as practiced by orthodox followers of THE false prophet Muhammad not only in John's "world" but around much of the rest of the world today.
: RB Sun Nov 08, 2015 - 07:15:30....... and if one refuses to do so, then those people cannot buy or sell, .........
The tiny little remnant of non-Muslims in John's whole "world", are being wiped out by those that carry the name of the Islamic beast as I write, who not only can't buy or sell but are fleeing for their very lives.
: RB Sun Nov 08, 2015 - 07:15:30........ or, they will be not be accepted as true children of God, but as trouble makers, and false, and they shall be killed, or put to silence.
As is happening throughout John's world, even beheading children for refusing to renounce Jesus Christ and parrot the Islamic shahada (the Islamic statement of "faith"). "There is no god by Allah and Muhammad is his messenger".
: RB Sun Nov 08, 2015 - 07:15:30Revelation 13 truly is not hard to put the proper senses of the highly symbolic languages used by John. But we use other scriptures to guide our understanding of Revelation.........
Like those that contain the very same figures of lion, bear and leopard.
: RB Sun Nov 08, 2015 - 07:15:30.......~such as Matthew 24; 2nd Thess 2; 2nd Timothy 3:1-4:5; etc. As far as the number of the beast goes, God does not leave us wondering.
Nor does history.
: RB Sun Nov 08, 2015 - 07:15:30666 is 2/3 of what ever is under consideration.
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for
it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
Bing search - muhammad 666
John wasn't prophesying about Peoria Illinois. Through an ethnographic hermeneutic, the prophet John's whole world (outside of Israel) is virtually 100% Muslim. Consider:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark,
or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Anecdotally, many even carry a physical mark or "prayer bump" on their foreheads, from pressing them to the ground 5 times a day while praying in the "vain repetitions of the heathen" as scripture refers to salat. Bing search images for "prayer bump".
As we can see through a more scholarly ethnographic hermeneutic, virtually 100% of John's whole "world" is already marked by the name of the beast - Islam - which would render the mark of the beast a fulfilled prophecy.
RB,
How can the answer be apostate Christianity when the whole world wonders, and follows after the beast? We know there are many religious groups and atheists who have absolutely no interest in any religion which calls itself Christianity. And then many others actually hate anything labeled "Christian". It just doesn't seem to fit.
: raggthyme13 Sun Nov 08, 2015 - 16:43:15
RB,
How can the answer be apostate Christianity when the whole world wonders, and follows after the beast?
Indeed, and what would apostate Christianity have to do with a lion, bear and leopard?
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/could-the-mark-of-the-beast-be-a-prophecy-that-is-already-fulfilled-by-islam/ (http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/could-the-mark-of-the-beast-be-a-prophecy-that-is-already-fulfilled-by-islam/)
: raggthyme13 Sun Nov 08, 2015 - 16:43:15We know there are many religious groups and atheists who have absolutely no interest in any religion which calls itself Christianity. And then many others actually hate anything labeled "Christian". It just doesn't seem to fit.
: PeteWaldo Sun Nov 08, 2015 - 06:24:45
You may not be aware of this but your immediate audience hermeneutic was introduced by 17th century Roman church Jesuit Luis del Alcázar in a counter-reformation effort.
Not sure about this but I'm pretty simple.. I just read Rev. knowing it was actually written to people suffering in the same tribulation that John was. This would have been a comfort to them, wouldn't it? The book comes with a blessing for those who hear it, but it sounds like you are saying it wasn't written first
to them.
Are you saying that they would not have been able to recognize the beast of whom John wrote by calculating his number?
: raggthyme13 Sat Nov 14, 2015 - 20:09:35
: PeteWaldo Sun Nov 08, 2015 - 06:24:45
You may not be aware of this but your immediate audience hermeneutic was introduced by 17th century Roman church Jesuit Luis del Alcázar in a counter-reformation effort.
Not sure about this but I'm pretty simple.. I just read Rev. knowing it was actually written to people suffering in the same tribulation that John was.
Even Jesuit Alcazar knew better when he penned the hermeneutic in which you join him. His effort was an attempt to fool the Reformers, however
they weren't fooled. Additionally, your post seems to be written from the perspective of someone in the U.S. sittin' back comfy in his lazy boy chair, who hasn't bothered to avail himself of information as to how horrifically our brothers and sisters are being persecuted and slaughtered around much of the world today. Visit sites like Persecution.org, The Clarion Project or Bare Naked Islam (for a cruder presentation) to help yourself get up to speed.
From the Hoover Institute: "Few people realize that we are today living through the largest persecution of Christians in history, worse even than the famous attacks under ancient Roman emperors like Diocletian and Nero. Estimates of the numbers of Christians under assault range from 100-200 million."
"And most of this persecution is taking place at the hands of Muslims. Of the top fifty countries persecuting Christians, forty-two have either a Muslim majority or have sizable Muslim populations."
Scripture was written for all, but in particular, to God's people.
I understand that I am my brother John's companion in the tribulation and in the kingdom of Jesus Christ, just as those that Jesus was speaking to were. Perhaps you don't count yourself among those of us in the kingdom of Jesus Christ, but instead understand that habitation was available only to those few men Jesus was speaking to.
Rev 1:9
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience
of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Why not try looking through the perspective of an ethnographic hermeneutic, at the geographical area of the prophet John's whole "world". Try to see the area of the "world" that John was familiar with, as it stands today:
(http://www.beholdthebeast.com/0ce2cc90.jpg)
So where in John's "world" would a Christian like to live today? Where on this map would a Christian be comfortable proclaiming the Gospel on the street, or what Muhammad's orthodox followers would consider doing mischief in the land:
Surah 5:33
The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and
do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off from opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter.
(http://www.beholdthebeast.com/2efa3a90.png)
Again:
worldNew Testament Greek Definition:
3625 oikoumene {oy-kou-men'-ay}
feminine participle present passive of 3611 (as noun, by
implication of 1093); TDNT - 5:157,674; n f
AV - world 14, earth 1; 15
1) the inhabited earth
1a)
the portion of the earth inhabited by the Greeks, in
distinction from the lands of the barbarians1b)
the Roman empire, all the subjects of the empire1c) the whole inhabited earth, the world
1d) the inhabitants of the earth, men
2) the universe, the world
: raggthyme13 Sat Nov 14, 2015 - 20:09:35This would have been a comfort to them, wouldn't it? The book comes with a blessing for those who hear it, but it sounds like you are saying it wasn't written first to them.
How on earth could you conclude that I
or anybody else would be saying something like that, when they are the very ones that Jesus spoke the words to
first, that were recorded for the edification of the rest of the kingdom of Jesus Christ unto today?
: raggthyme13 Sat Nov 14, 2015 - 20:09:35Are you saying that they would not have been able to recognize the beast of whom John wrote by calculating his number?
Bible prophecy was not a series of news reports of current events as observed by the author. Bible prophecy was inspired in those that were chosen to dream/envision it and record it, who themselves generally had no idea as to what the figures in the figurative language they were recording were all about. While sometimes including current or past events, the purpose of prophecy was to detail future events in advance, so that after they were fulfilled people could more easily believe. Proof of God. But it's reserved for Christ's bond servants to understand, rather than those obstinately marching around under the banner of a doctrine of men, defending something that is not well supported by history, scripture and consideration of the views of those that came before us, let alone present day reality.
Matthew Henry: "Those things of God which are now dark and obscure will hereafter be made clear, and easy to be understood. Truth is the daughter of time.
Scripture prophecies will be expounded by the accomplishment of them; therefore they are given, and for that explication they are reserved. Therefore they are told us before, that, when they do come to pass, we may believe."
So what do you believe the "beast" of Rev 13 was, and what does your beast have to do with a leopard, bear and lion?Do you believe the kingdom of Jesus Christ was limited to include only some of those that lived in the first century?
Red, a question. I'm not speaking from revelation myself, but wouldn't it make more sense for apostate Christianity to be the harlot that rides the beast? AC has the blood of the Saints on her hands (Catholicism and Protestants both do), and rebellious Israel was typically equated to. Whore seeking the... well let's just say God gets creative and harsh in what He describes. Even the Proverbs speaks of an adulterous woman, whom His people is to avoid, that forgets the Friend of her youth, and forsaken the covenant of her God. She even has one of the clearest descriptions of who she is.
I have come to the brink of utter ruin,
in the midst of the gathered assembly.
: PeteWaldo Sun Nov 15, 2015 - 05:08:33
Additionally, your post seems to be written from the perspective of someone in the U.S. sittin' back comfy in his lazy boy chair, who hasn't bothered to avail himself of information as to how horrifically our brothers and sisters are being persecuted and slaughtered around much of the world today. Visit sites like Persecution.org, The Clarion Project or Bare Naked Islam (for a cruder presentation) to help yourself get up to speed.
How on earth could you conclude that I or anybody else would be saying something like that, when they are the very ones that Jesus spoke the words to first, that were recorded for the edification of the rest of the kingdom of Jesus Christ unto today?
First, my apologies for misunderstanding you. I thought you were saying that the words of John weren't written for his immediate audience when you mentioned that the "immediate audience hermeneutic" wasn't introduced until the 17th century. I thought that was ridiculous, but I see now what you are saying.
Second, I am well aware of the suffering going on around the world, one would have to bury their head in the sand to be ignorant of it, and especially when it comes to Islam's war against Christians. There will always be tribulation in the world, evil men will always kill and destroy, I just lean towards what some call the Great Tribulation taking place during the time of Herod's temple, not another.
I have asked someone to explain to me how you can come up with any other time frame for that tribulation (from Matthew 24 and Luke 21) when the coming desolation Jesus spoke of referred specifically to
that temple. I have not received an answer to that yet.
So what do you believe the "beast" of Rev 13 was, and what does your beast have to do with a leopard, bear and lion?
Do you believe the kingdom of Jesus Christ was limited to include only some of those that lived in the first century?
I am not totally convinced it was Nero, but the fact that his name both counted to 666 and 616 (found in a few manuscripts) intrigues me. I'm not sure about the leopard, lion and bear except to say that in Hosea 13:7 the LORD says he will be unto them as a lion and as a leopard... so perhaps these terms are meant to show how destructive the beast would be? Again, I am just not sure.
No, I do not believe the kingdom was limited to first century believers. Biblically, the kingdom of God consists of all who are born again through faith in Jesus.
Nero's name does equal 666 in the Roman numerals. Funny enough, Vicar Filie Dei (might have spelt that wrong), the title of the Pope meaning Vicar of the Son of God, also equals to 666 in the latin numerals. Both has done tremendous jobs in persecuting and torturing God's people. I'm not sure exactly about the calculation of the Beast's name, but considering the number has been associated with great persecution of Israel, I would call that a sign at least.
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast:for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
: Amo Sun Nov 15, 2015 - 21:28:29
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast:for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
You guys need to pull your head out of the sand and try a web search like - muhammad 666
: raggthyme13 Sun Nov 15, 2015 - 18:49:33
: PeteWaldo Sun Nov 15, 2015 - 05:08:33
Additionally, your post seems to be written from the perspective of someone in the U.S. sittin' back comfy in his lazy boy chair, who hasn't bothered to avail himself of information as to how horrifically our brothers and sisters are being persecuted and slaughtered around much of the world today. Visit sites like Persecution.org, The Clarion Project or Bare Naked Islam (for a cruder presentation) to help yourself get up to speed.
How on earth could you conclude that I or anybody else would be saying something like that, when they are the very ones that Jesus spoke the words to first, that were recorded for the edification of the rest of the kingdom of Jesus Christ unto today?
First, my apologies for misunderstanding you. I thought you were saying that the words of John weren't written for his immediate audience when you mentioned that the "immediate audience hermeneutic" wasn't introduced until the 17th century. I thought that was ridiculous, but I see now what you are saying.
The Wikipedia article on Alcazar further clarifies Alcazar's introduction of the
immediate audience only type hermeneutic under the "works" section.
His effort wasn't to put forth an effort toward sound exegesis of scripture, but rather to pen a doctrine that might divert the Reformer's attention away, from their pegging the Roman church and/or Pope and/or papacy as "The" "Antichrist". He penned it just decades after Jesuit Francisco Ribera's attempt to do the same, by diverting the Reformers attention to some future someday with his futurist doctrine, rather than focused on the Roman church.
The Reformers didn't buy into either of the Jesuit's devices. Yet both approaches began to come into vogue during the 19th century, and were popularized during the 20th, perhaps just as prophesied:
2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
I think that is what struck the church so blind in regard to Islam's role in bible prophecy, now that the mortal wound of
the false prophet Muhammad's Islamic kingdom beast has been healed by western wealth transfer in oil purchase and arms supply. Financing today's Second Islamic Jihad in the image of the First Islamic Jihad. Jihad is the pinnacle of worship in Islam.
: raggthyme13 Sun Nov 15, 2015 - 18:49:33Second, I am well aware of the suffering going on around the world, one would have to bury their head in the sand to be ignorant of it, and especially when it comes to Islam's war against Christians. There will always be tribulation in the world, evil men will always kill and destroy, I just lean towards what some call the Great Tribulation taking place during the time of Herod's temple, not another.
And I tend to lean toward that greater period of tribulation, during
the tribulation, as being the first half of the 20th century and the 60-70 million killed
in WW2 alone, along with the genocide of 8 million Jews.
: raggthyme13 Sun Nov 15, 2015 - 18:49:33I have asked someone to explain to me how you can come up with any other time frame for that tribulation (from Matthew 24 and Luke 21) when the coming desolation Jesus spoke of referred specifically to that temple.
But is it the temple that is desolated? I believe God's prophetic symbol sits in the "holy place" - God's footstool - near where the temple once stood, but
it is Jerusalem that becomes desolated. No Christian can deny that the Dome of the Rock is
an abomination, with the founding verses as well as being immortalized in mosaic around the eves "Far be it from Allah's transcendent majesty that he should have a son."
Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see
Jerusalem compassed with armies, then
know that the desolation thereof is nigh 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains...
Jerusalem was compassed by armies in 70 AD, and on several occasions after, including 132, 639, 1099, 1187, 1948, 1967.
In 70AD Jerusalem was certainly physically decimated, and a million or so Jews were whacked, but Christians escaped in advance and were saved, some suggest because of the very verses you reference. But the Roman gentiles came back to whack another half million Jews less than 70 years later illustrating that the "times of the gentiles" in Jerusalem could hardly be considered as having been fulfilled in 70 AD. During the 6th century when Caliph Omar ushered in the false prophet Muhammad's Islamic empire, he was met by Bishop Sophronius, of a church that was alive and well.
Islam's arrival began a 1200 year long physical as well as spiritual desolation of Jerusalem - of the land of milk and honey - that by the beginning of the 19th century had rendered Israel an utterly desolate, denuded, deforested, depopulated desert wasteland.
Please web search the mathematical precision of prophecy, and consider how this might be further confirmed through the day-year language of prophecy, as applied to by both Daniel and John's dreams and vision. Also by Daniel's "times" problems:
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/'a-time-times-and-an-half'-and-the-'time-of-the-end'/ (http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/'a-time-times-and-an-half'-and-the-'time-of-the-end'/)
: raggthyme13 Sun Nov 15, 2015 - 18:49:33I have not received an answer to that yet.
So what do you believe the "beast" of Rev 13 was, and what does your beast have to do with a leopard, bear and lion?
Do you believe the kingdom of Jesus Christ was limited to include only some of those that lived in the first century?
I am not totally convinced it was Nero, but the fact that his name both counted to 666 and 616 (found in a few manuscripts) intrigues me. I'm not sure about the leopard, lion and bear except to say that in Hosea 13:7 the LORD says he will be unto them as a lion and as a leopard... so perhaps these terms are meant to show how destructive the beast would be? Again, I am just not sure.
I don't believe the Lord obscures the identity of this central figure of Revelation, and final foe of God's people, now that we may be in this "time of the end". How does the prophet Daniel define the term "beast" in the context of the figurative language of his prophetic dream? Please set your preconceived notions aside for a moment and visit the post in the thread at this link, and judge as to whether you think it appears to be hermeneutically sound:
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/the-beast-revelation/msg1054999136/#msg1054999136 (http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/the-beast-revelation/msg1054999136/#msg1054999136)
: raggthyme13 Sun Nov 15, 2015 - 18:49:33No, I do not believe the kingdom was limited to first century believers. Biblically, the kingdom of God consists of all who are born again through faith in Jesus.
His kingdom that is not of this world that was ushered in during the 1st century, before some standing in that particular immediate audience that He was speaking to, tasted of death.
: LaSpino3 Sat Jul 16, 2011 - 06:18:33
Michael, Your article is way to long, and covers to much ground to respond to. Question, are these your thoughts, or are you quoting the thoughts of another person?
But I do have one question for you.
You wrote, "This would further the idea that he (Satan) is now in heaven."
Phil asks, "What heaven are you speaking of? Is it the heavens above the earth, or before the throne of God? Also how did you Scripturally come to that conclusion?"
Phil LaSpino
Probably not even his words. Most likely a cut and paste job from some website somewhere. But you are correct, posts should be short and to the point.
: PeteWaldo Sun Nov 08, 2015 - 07:56:21So how does scripture interpret apostate Christianity as having something to do with a leopard, bear and lion? I would appreciate very much if you begin your reply by answering that question.
I will start here, even though, it is very hard to start in the book of Revelation, that is filled with highly symbolical language that depends totally on the scriptures overall to interpret John's writings. The Revelation of Jesus Christ was given last for good reasons. Most students of the scriptures understand the
gradual revelation of truth concerning most main doctrines that are contained in the true religion/faith of Jesus Christ~many of these doctrine are used freely in John's Revelation of Jesus Christ that God gave unto him. From Genesis
to Revelation a wise student of the scriptures gather scriptures that are linked together concerning a particular subject, so when they come to Revelation, they should understand how John used certain phrases
based upon John's understanding of truth of other scriptures, when such words were used throughout God's word. Revelation does not explain Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 21:2 Thessalonian 2; 2 Timothy 3:1-4:5; 1st John 2; etc., etc. But, these and many others act as a schoolmaster, instructing our understanding on Revelation~ that should be a given, and understood without any controversy. Whatever position, or, understanding one puts forth, it must be in agreement with Daniel's abomination that maketh desolate; Jesus' Olivet discourse, that he made sure was his last great warning before departing from this world back to the Father; Paul's man of sin; and John's Antichrist~which are all
one and the same. If one's understanding of Revelation is so much different from those all important scriptures, then one can rest assure that what they are hearing is false, and not of God. We must hold on to what we know is
the truth from clear and easier scriptures, before running off and embracing highly symbolical teaching, without any support from the clearer and easier scriptures. When one does have a solid understanding of other scriptures, then Revelation will come to one's understanding~and NOT before then. One never starts at the end and work themselves back to the beginning, but vice versa.
A few things before starting. Whatever is taught in Revelation 13, is also the same truth taught in Revelation 17,18~just from a different view, but the same doctrine, each section adding something the other section does not have~I think most understand this truth. The beast of Revelation 13 is no other than Mystery Babylon being revealed as the mystery of iniquity workings under the power of the Devil/Dragon, as God's enemy, and his people. Mystery Babylon
comes together as "ONE" against God and the saints~both the religious part of Babylon and the secular world, even though the secular world turns against ALL religion just before Christ's coming. So, Babylon is the beast, and the beast is Mystery Babylon. It's the great city built by the Devil himself to contend against Zion~ God's holy chosen seed through Jesus Christ. They (beast and mystery Babylon) are one and the same.
Revelation 14:8-11~And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."[/size
These scriptures prove that Mystery Babylon and the beast are one and the same. Also, Mystery Babylon/beast have been here from the very beginning, since Cain, way before Muhammad and all other false prophets that came afterwards. The beast was not born 570 A.D. but at the day Adam and Eve sinned, the mystery of iniquity enter into this world through one man~Adam. Anyone who labors to limit the beast to Islam and the false prophet to one man named
Muḥammad ibn `Abd Allāh; or any other single man; are delusional, at best, and down right a false prophet themselves at worst. We would like to think that they are just deceived, but mean well, but I will leave that to God to judge, not me. Mystery Babylon/beast has many different sects of religions, each claiming to be of God, and all in agreement against the very elect, chosen out of all nations under heaven.
Later...
You see, my friend, if you hadn't engaged in so much pompous bluster as in the other thread.....
: RB Tue Nov 17, 2015 - 05:21:13You come here and teach that the beast of Revelation is the Islamic religion, which you will never be able to prove with using only the scriptures.
.....and I sincerely hope you didn't intend to use the word "prove" when you wrote in your prior post above: "These scriptures prove that Mystery Babylon and the beast are one and the same.", because anybody wishing that the figurative language of a prophetic dream "proves" their view, rather than believing it offered the most reasonable exegesis they arrived at to date, has put themselves at a dire disadvantage in regard to receiving any further understanding regarding the book of Revelation. The opposite attitude to that of
a bond servant that the book of Revelation
was written to. It seems you may wish that perhaps the whole subject of Revelation were only about the apostate church, rather than false worship being limited to the great whore and/or mystery Babylon and also other passages like Thess "falling away". And while I also appreciate the bifidic and chiasmic nature of the book of Revelation (also Daniel and others), I don't believe it is somewhat repetitive, in order to be redundant. My understanding is that the first beast of Revelation tends to focus more on the physical and geographical history of mankind, while the scarlet beast focuses more on the spiritual condition of mankind.
Do you see what happened when you tried to force Revelation 13:2 into your preconceived notions? Where did the bear and leopard go? So in spite of your bluster and accusation directed at me for not using scripture to exegete scripture, you yet again failed to explain, what apostate Christianity has to do with a bear and leopard. Why make it so hard on yourself by going about it backwards? When you begin with the verse in Revelation 13, and seek out an adjacent hermeneutic, we find Daniel and John use 3 of the very same figures, and both in the context of the figurative language of a prophetic dream/vision. Why not try to go with it?
If you really believe that your effort to insert your preconceived notion, resulted a more hermeneutically sound exegesis than the one quoted below, please quote that explanation and explain just how and why.
Let alone that the following exegesis would seem to be further supported by John's 8 kings/beasts.
: PeteWaldo Wed Nov 04, 2015 - 15:18:02Daniel defines the term "beast", and he does it in the same context of the figurative language of a prophetic dream, that even includes 3 of the very same figures. So let's let scripture define and explain it:
Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth.....
There is considerable agreement among Jewish and Christian scholars that the kingdoms represented by Daniel's lion, bear and leopard, are the successive ancient kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece, followed by the fourth "terrible" beast, that is understood to be the Roman Empire. Now consider:
Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. (Daniel also ascribes the masculine gender to his kingdom "beasts")
So John paints a picture of a composite beast using the same figures that Daniel did. What countries occupy the seats of those ancient kingdoms today?
Babylon = Iraq
Medo-Persia = Iran
ancient Greece = Syria-Lebanon
While these countries have some theological and political differences, they are all perfectly united through the power of the spirit of antichrist, and all follow THE false prophet Muhammad. We can see the power that Satan gave Muhammad's Islamic kingdom beast exercised, every day in the news, yet even some Christian folks are even today, too blind to see it.
: PeteWaldo Thu Nov 19, 2015 - 18:54:14You see, my friend, if you hadn't engaged in so much pompous bluster as in the other thread.....
Peter you are wise, I have not
on purpose, reason being, is that I'am trying to speak carefully, without shooting from the hip, just to be posting an answer back to you. My answers to you is just as you said to me:
for the benefits of others, not for you, since you are looking at it more from being a Jews (which is what I got from reading your posts) and your people suffering the most from the Anti-Christian kingdom of the Islamic Countries that surrounds you and your people, or at least your people. To our Christian brothers who are Jews, we fully agree that the they are indeed
part of the beast's false religions,
just as the Mormons are with their false prophet Joseph Smith and his Book of Mormon, The Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrine and Covenants; and Charles Taze Russell who started the Jehovah Witnesses and their New world translation. Cults have their founders and their own
"bibles or, seemly source of their words from God, just as the blinded Muslims do for them, just that they have been here much longer, but less than some of the woman who rode the scarlet coloured beast,
(Revelation 13) which had seven heads and ten horns, the very same as the beast of chapter thirteen, even though you just said:
I don't believe it is somewhat repetitive, in order to be redundant
It is not sir, in order to be redundant, but to give God's faithful saints a complete knowledge of
Mystery Babylon, the great city headed up by the Dragon in opposition to God and his chosen seed, from every nation under heaven,
Jews and Gentiles. You do with Islam and Muhammad, just as many do with Catholicism and the Popes' by
limiting the the whore of Revelation to a
particular cult of Mystery Babylon~when once a person does that, then he has left
most of Babylon's false worship out of the big picture, and truly are making them not part of the false prophets that shall fill this earth in the latter days of the last day~ per Christ from
Matthew 24; Paul from
2nd Thess 2; and John from
1st John 2; and Revelation; etc. So, in essence, many are being used to distract people
away from other cults who are preaching another jesus, and truly embracing another gospel, which is just as dangerous as any racial sect professing to worship God. At least with the racial group, they generally enter into conflict with the powers that be, whereas, others just freely have access to the minds of most who are willing to hear them out, so that they can deceived them so much better, than the racial ones can.
So yes, I am being slow and careful, with as much detail as possible, without being too long. I will not write much since I'm heading to go out of town, but will some, the Lord willing, where I am able to do so.
: RB Fri Nov 20, 2015 - 04:36:53So yes, I am being slow and careful, with as much detail as possible, without being too long.
Yet with all those words still failing to answer what apostate Christianity has to do with a leopard and bear.
:
: PeteWaldo Fri Nov 20, 2015 - 07:01:53Yet with all those words still failing to answer what apostate Christianity has to do with a leopard and bear.
Peter, you will not provoke me to move at
your desired pace, but I will do it at my own pace. Sir, I found your site and have glanced over some of your beliefs, which is nothing more than "
mixture of the dual covenant doctrine with historicism". Thus it is a
bastardised form of dispensationalism
without the pre-trib rapture doctrine".......... as one good brother has well said, concerning your position and others like you, namely one:
Ellis Skolfield.
apostate Christianity
Is without question the whole theme of John's writings, picking up
just where Christ, and Paul left off concerning apostate Christianity, as they were leaving this world.. 2nd Timothy 3:1-7~"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God. Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."
I know this and others do as well, yet you are blinded as to the truth of this. Islam is only part of the big picture of last day prophecy, yet they are
not THE picture as you desire for others to believe, leaving them prime subjects to be deceived by the
religious whore of Mystery Babylon.
2nd Timothy 4:2-4~"Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."
Paul spoke of enemies WITHIN the professing camp of the saints, not of those outside! Wheat and tares grow TOGETHER, not apart from each others! So, do you believe that professing Christendom will do
what as this world comes to its end? But, you need not to answer that as of yet, until I am finished, then you can give it your best effort of disproving what I will give you.
Pete: "Jerusalem was compassed by armies in 70 AD, and on several occasions after, including 132, 639, 1099, 1187, 1948, 1967.
In 70AD Jerusalem was certainly physically decimated, and a million or so Jews were whacked, but Christians escaped in advance and were saved, some suggest because of the very verses you reference. But the Roman gentiles came back to whack another half million Jews less than 70 years later illustrating that the "times of the gentiles."
Meaning the Jewish dispensation was gone. The kingdom that would "stand forever" (Daniel 2: 44) came at Pentecost (with power). This Messianic kingdom was established with the preaching of the Gospel. Note Peter's message as the first gospel preaching (Acts 2)
Does his message sound like Schofield's, Lindsay or Gomer Powell's?
Was this Kingdom set up in the days of the Roman empire as found in Daniel 2? The legs of "iron" (Da.2)? are they not the might of Rome"?
Did not Rome dominate the world when Jesus was born in Bethlehem?
Please note that no world empire conquered Rome; and was replaced by no world empire, it fell from within. Rome declined as it absorbed Germanic tribes and became the "feet of clay" of Daniel 2: 41-43.
Is the church the "Messianic kingdom" of Daniel 2:44 which Jesus speaks in Matthew 16:15ff?
Speaking with Peter, Jesus speaks of the church and kingdom synonymously. Christ claimed this promise for Himself when He came (Lk. 1:31-33; Ma. 11:2-6).
During Jesus' public ministry He spoke of the Kingdom being "at hand." (Ma. 3:1-2; 4:17; Mk. 1:14,15).
Kingdom preaching characterized the ministry of Jesus and the Apostles (Ma. 4:23; 9:35; Mk, 1:14; Acts 8:12; 15:13-18; 28:23).
Today's Zionist movement and the followers of Mohammad, etc., have had the same opportunity to "seek the kingdom of God" as anyone else since Peter opened the door of the kingdom at Pentecost; but most have chosen not to follow. They seek after signs, follow false preachers who report that God is speaking via revelation to them, and close their ears to the gospel as preached in the day's of the Apostles.
I have on my book shelves, old prophecy books, out of print, pitiful, mildewed monuments to dead visions---gravestones for prophecy "scholars" long since buried in the shroud of misbegotten charts, locked in the tomb of eschatological disgrace by their own "keys."
I have copied some of the "charts" and "keys" of many who participate on this forum to add to my collection. I pray the Lord doesn't hold it against me----but the next generation should be aware of the false prophets, and men who have exegesis text in a wind storm from this generation....:)
Your post is the fruit of unrighteous judgment, in conjunction with ignoring my prior replies to you.
: Tyler Sun Nov 22, 2015 - 07:01:58
Pete: "Jerusalem was compassed by armies in 70 AD, and on several occasions after, including 132, 639, 1099, 1187, 1948, 1967.
In 70AD Jerusalem was certainly physically decimated, and a million or so Jews were whacked, but Christians escaped in advance and were saved, some suggest because of the very verses you reference. But the Roman gentiles came back to whack another half million Jews less than 70 years later illustrating that the "times of the gentiles."
Meaning the Jewish dispensation was gone. The kingdom that would "stand forever" (Daniel 2: 44) came at Pentecost (with power). This Messianic kingdom was established with the preaching of the Gospel. Note Peter's message as the first gospel preaching (Acts 2)
I agree.
: Tyler Sun Nov 22, 2015 - 07:01:58
Does his message sound like Schofield's, Lindsay or Gomer Powell's?
Nor like my own.
: Tyler Sun Nov 22, 2015 - 07:01:58Was this Kingdom set up in the days of the Roman empire as found in Daniel 2? The legs of "iron" (Da.2)? are they not the might of Rome"?
Did not Rome dominate the world when Jesus was born in Bethlehem?
Please note that no world empire conquered Rome; and was replaced by no world empire, it fell from within. Rome declined as it absorbed Germanic tribes and became the "feet of clay" of Daniel 2: 41-43.
Is the church the "Messianic kingdom" of Daniel 2:44 which Jesus speaks in Matthew 16:15ff?
Speaking with Peter, Jesus speaks of the church and kingdom synonymously. Christ claimed this promise for Himself when He came (Lk. 1:31-33; Ma. 11:2-6).
During Jesus' public ministry He spoke of the Kingdom being "at hand." (Ma. 3:1-2; 4:17; Mk. 1:14,15).
Also proclaiming:
Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
: Tyler Sun Nov 22, 2015 - 07:01:58
Kingdom preaching characterized the ministry of Jesus and the Apostles (Ma. 4:23; 9:35; Mk, 1:14; Acts 8:12; 15:13-18; 28:23).
Today's Zionist movement and the followers of Mohammad, etc., have had the same opportunity to "seek the kingdom of God" as anyone else ......
Spoken as God Himself, even though the scriptures indicate that some remained blinded by God Himself, decades after the cross.
: Tyler Sun Nov 22, 2015 - 07:01:58...... since Peter opened the door of the kingdom at Pentecost; but most have chosen not to follow. They seek after signs, follow false preachers who report that God is speaking via revelation to them, and close their ears to the gospel as preached in the day's of the Apostles.
No doubt some Jews have closed their own ears to the gospel. But who do the scriptures indicate may have closed some faithful Jew's ears to the Gospel?
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written,
God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and
ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
: Tyler Sun Nov 22, 2015 - 07:01:58I have on my book shelves, old prophecy books, out of print, pitiful, mildewed monuments to dead visions---gravestones for prophecy "scholars" long since buried in the shroud of misbegotten charts, locked in the tomb of eschatological disgrace by their own "keys."
Again, Tyler, if you want to argue against futurism, go find a futurist to argue with. I used to be a futurist too. Only rather than jump from the frying pan of futurism and into the fire of preterism, I approach bible prophecy in the church tradition of amillennial historicism.
: Tyler Sun Nov 22, 2015 - 07:01:58I have copied some of the "charts" and "keys" of many who participate on this forum to add to my collection. I pray the Lord doesn't hold it against me----but the next generation should be aware of the false prophets, and men who have exegesis text in a wind storm from this generation....:)
So let me inquire of you Tyler. Do you think it a mere coincidence that included among the fruit of the anti-Zionist tree is, a near unanimity of Muslims, as well as Nazis, skinheads, white supremacists, the former Soviet communists, Louis Farrakan and the "Nation of Islam", George Soros and his Center for American Progress and anti-Semites of all stripes?
Is it a simple coincidence that the anti-Zionist fruit also includes some self-proclaimed Christians who reject that the return of Jews to their land is of the Lord, such as Arnold Murray and his Serpent Seed cult, David Duke and the KKK, the "Christian Identity" movement and Jeremiah Wright?
Here's something you might consider relevant to this subject. The term "Beast" as it is used biblically has several different connotations. In Daniel 7:7, 7:23 it refers to "empires", "governments", "kingdoms" ect. It seems to be used similarly in the Revelation prophecy, (Rev.13, 17). Not referring to a singular person. Even the Mark of the Beast (Rev.13:18) could refer to a succession of six men representing three godless ideologies 666, rather than one single individual.
In fact, I find the popular theory the number 666 represents some kind of secret code or cipher that can be decrypted to reveal one individual name highly improbable. The assumption of this theory is, that the key to this code was either accidentally lost some where in antiquity or deliberately omitted from the text in order to escape persecution. I find that apologetic description pretty hard to swallow. According to Scripture, (Rev.1:1 and 22:10) nothing in the Revelation is supposed to be concealed or "Sealed up, for the time is at hand". So the whole idea of a secret code or cipher is completely unscriptural.
The passage of Rev.13:18 says all the reader need employ is wisdom, some understanding and be able to count (presumably simple math). It doesn't say anything about anyone needing a degree in cryptology. Yes. The ancients all knew about codes and ciphers and used them extensively for the same reason we do today. Those ancient codes were quite rudimentary and simple compared to the sophisticated incryption used today. It would take a modern computer incryption program about 10 seconds to break a first century code. Nor do I see how a code or cipher could be "universally" recognized and understood by everyone on the planet. Whereas history and simple math are both languages universally understood. Historic dates and information don't change with language. Columbus sailed for the New World in 1492. Doesn't matter whether you look it up in a Chinese or German encyclopedia. The information is going to be the same. 1+1 = 2, is the same in Portuguese or French or any other tongue.
Hope this helps you out with your interpretational work. It was very helpful to me.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, I don't believe the Mark of the Beast (Rev.13:18) represents some kind of secret code that can be deciphered. Instead I believe it represents a kind of "abbreviation" of historical and prophetic information. Anyway here is my interpretation of the meaning of the number 666. I assure you it is "original" work of my own and was not "lifted" or reproduced from any other source. Since it's not copyrighted either, you're welcome to reproduce it or share it however you choose. So let's start counting the number of the beast.
During the history of the Soviet Union and until its' collapse in 1991 a total of six men served as general secretary and dictator of the U.S.S.R. Their names are Stalin, Kruschev, Breshnev, Chernenko, Andropov and Gorbachev. The first SIX (representing Stalinist ideology). Please before anyone claims I left out the name V.I. Lenin, be aware Lenin was the father of the Bolshevik Revolution, and he was already dead and buried when Stalin wrote the Soviet Constitution. In fact some historians say "Stalinism" was a betrayal of Leninism.
During the same time period, six people served as president of the People's Republic of China (Red China). Their names are Mao Tze Tung, Zhu de, Qingling, Ye Jianying, Li Xiannian and Yang Shang Kun. The second SIX representing the ideology of Moaism.
During the same period of history the Vatican State was ruled by SIX Popes. Their names are Pope Pius XI, Pope Pius XII, Pope John XXIII, Pope Paul VI, Pope Paul I and Pope John Paul II. The third SIX representing the ideology of Marianism (The Worship of the Virgin Mary).
There you have THREE godless ideological movements, each occurring contemporaneously during the same historic period, each consisting of a succession of SIX leaders. In other words, 666, The name and the number of the beast.
Knowing this "key" information allows for the correct and accurate interpretation of the End Time Prophecies of the Book of Daniel and the Revelation. I'll show you what I mean. "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have RECEIVED NO KINGDOM YET; but receive power as kings ONE HOUR with the beast" (Rev. 17:12).
What sort of king has received no legitimate kingdom, but exercises all the power of a king ? Obviously a dictator or a usurper. Has such a beast system of ten kingdoms ever occurred in recent history ? Absolutely yes, it has. In March 1947 president Truman issued his "Policy of Containment" against Stalinism as the Iron Curtain fell across Eastern Europe. The East Bloc (Beast of the Cold War era) consisted of Ten Kingdoms. NINE Stalinist dictatorships in the countries of the U.S.S.R (which includes the Baltic States that voluntarily joined the Soviet Union and became Republics of the U.S.S.R.in 1941), East Germany, Bulgaria, Romania, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Yugoslavia and Albania. The TENTH kingdom of the East Bloc consisting of the Roman Catholic population of Eastern Europe representing the Vatican State, (The "miry clay" of Daniel 2:43 which is identified as "infirm spiritual belief" In Psalms 40:4). Ten Kingdoms all together.
What does the Prophecy of Revelation 17:12 mean when it says these ten kings have power with the beast for ONE HOUR ? Obviously the Scripture isn't talking about a literal hour of sixty minutes. That would be sort of ridiculous, wouldn't it ?! What else could this prophetic HOUR represent. On questions of uncertainty, it's always best to let Scripture interpret Scripture.
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" (2 Peter 3:8).
Apparently God doesn't reckon or perceive time the same way we do. If according to this passage a 24 hour day (Genesis 1:3-5) equals a thousand years of our time, then all one has to do is divide 24 into 1,000 years to find out what ONE HOUR represents in Prophecy. The sum you end up with is 41.6, or forty one and a half years (One Hour).
Remember, the Cold War era (beast) began in March 1947, or 1947.3. Add 41.6 (One Hour) to that date and you arrive at 1988.9, or September 1988. The Headlines for Time Magazine for that date read, "EASTERN EUROPE ERUPTS IN AN ARC OF UNREST AS YOUNG ACTIVISTS DEMAND REFORM". The story reports the beginning of the Velvet Revolution in Poland and the beginning of the end of the East Bloc and the Cold War era.
That's right. Bible Prophecy accurately predicted the exact month and year of the beginning of the End of the Cold War era and the coming collapse of the Soviet empire in Eastern Europe three years later in 1991. Pretty amazing stuff, huh ? And what does Bible Prophecy say happens next ? Well let's take a look, shall we ?
"For God hath put it in their hearts to fulfill his will. and to agree, and GIVE THEIR KINGDOM unto the beast, until the word's of God shall be fulfilled" (Revelation 17:17).
The U.S.S.R (Soviet Union), East Germany, Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia NO LONGER EXIST AS COUNTRIES (Kingdoms). The Stalinist regimes of Poland, Hungary, Bulgaria, Albania and Romania have all been toppled. Only the Vatican State remains to fulfill a special fate God has in store for that kingdom in the Last Days, "Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her" (Revelation 18:8).
I could also point to many prophecies in the Book of Daniel about the "Latter Kingdom of Man" that corroborate this interpretation completely. Daniel says THREE of these ten kingdoms will be subdued, (Dan.7:24). East Germany rebelled against Soviet occupation and was subdued by Soviet forces in 1948. Czechoslovakia and Hungary both also rebelled against the Soviets and were subdued by Warsaw Pact forces. Daniel also states THREE of these ten kingdoms will be "plucked up by their roots" (Daniel 7:8). Yugoslavia and Albania withdrew from the Warsaw Pact. As did East Germany, which reunited with West Germany before the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991.
I'll go on to explain the symbolism of the two feet and ten toes of the "partly strong and partly broken " empire Daniel describes (Dan.2:42). The symbolism obviously portrays a "divided" empire. The toes of the imagry representing FIVE kingdoms, each divided into two separate spheres of influence. Historically FIVE of the Ten kingdoms of the East Bloc were solidly entrenched and remained part of the East Bloc until the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991. The Soviet Union, Bulgaria, Romania, Poland and the Roman Catholic population of eastern Europe representing the Vatican State. While Yugoslavia and Albania withdrew from the Soviet Bloc and East Germany reunited with West Germany before the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991. Both Czechoslovakia and Hungary rebelled and had to be subdued by the Warsaw Pact. FIVE kingdoms NOT SO SOLIDLY entrenched in the East Bloc.
What's the odds of all this recent history exactly mirroring the End Time Prophecies of the Bible being a coincidence or happening by accident? About the same mathematical probability as someone winning the Power Ball Lottery four time in a row. In other words, "IT CAN"T BE A COINCIDENCE" ! It is concrete proof End Time Bible Prophecy is REAL.
Well I promised to keep it short and only give you the "Readers Digest" condensed version of what I know about End Time Prophecy. I could go on and explain the meaning of much more Revelation Prophecy, some of which relates to historic events that have taken place more recently and will take place in the immediate future, but I've run out of time on this library computer for today. I will be posting more Topic threads in the coming days.
: michael777 Wed Jul 06, 2011 - 15:58:46
The Beast Revelation
This letter is dedicated to all Christians.
No, Chapter 13 of the Book of Revelation is not dedicated to all Christians.
It, like all of the apparent prophecies of the Book of Revelation, is intended for only the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11:3 and only the dominant Witness of Rev. 11:3, at that.
End of story.
: Star of David Tue Dec 22, 2015 - 18:08:18
: michael777 Wed Jul 06, 2011 - 15:58:46
The Beast Revelation
This letter is dedicated to all Christians.
No, Chapter 13 of the Book of Revelation is not dedicated to all Christians.
It, like all of the apparent prophecies of the Book of Revelation, is intended for only the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11:3 and only the dominant Witness of Rev. 11:3, at that.
End of story.
Wrong. The Book of Revelation is not for you and you alone. End of story.
: Star of David Tue Dec 22, 2015 - 18:08:18
: michael777 Wed Jul 06, 2011 - 15:58:46
The Beast Revelation
This letter is dedicated to all Christians.
No, Chapter 13 of the Book of Revelation is not dedicated to all Christians.
It, like all of the apparent prophecies of the Book of Revelation, is intended for only the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11:3 and only the dominant Witness of Rev. 11:3, at that.
End of story.
First of all you launched off on a false premise. Read what you quoted again. He said "
This letter", referring to what he wrote in the OP, being dedicated to all Christians.
Secondly, the book of Revelation was written to Christ's bondservants. I would submit that may not include those Christians that parade around with indoctrination-induced certainty in hand, who then approach the book of Revelation by trying to wring it through that filter of preconceived notion, but that Revelation was written more toward Christ's under rowers.
: raggthyme13 Sun Nov 08, 2015 - 16:43:15RB, How can the answer be apostate Christianity when the whole world wonders, and follows after the beast? We know there are many religious groups and atheists who have absolutely no interest in any religion which calls itself Christianity. And then many others actually hate anything labeled "Christian". It just doesn't seem to fit.
We shall see if it does or does not fit. I do not believe it will be problem to prove that it does fit. I will give my time to this thread after I return from Atlanta, Ga. the first part of the week. One of my grandson is being baptized tomorrow, along with a son-in-law, and a daughter, into the faith of Jesus Christ. My daughter was baptized while in college over twenty four years ago, yet wanted to do it again with a clearer and better conscience, than she had at twenty. Allow me to only say this for now~I agree that many religious group and atheists have not any interest in the truth, and that is the
very reason why ALL give their strength in serving the beast...but they do it for their own profit, not knowing that they are being used of the devil, which any preterits would have a hard time believing since that believe that Satan was cast in the lake of fire in 70 A.D.!! Which is absolutely spiritually insane, and a soul that is willingly ignorant of truth~ per Peter in 2nd Peter 3.
Does anyone agree with me now, or is my prophecy still on the shelf?
: michael777 Fri Sep 20, 2024 - 16:06:24Does anyone agree with me now, or is my prophecy still on the shelf?
Not even Christ or John the writer of Revelation would agree with your interpretation of His book. Why then should we agree? Your presentation of the time frame of all these events and the identification of any of the three Beasts in Rev. 13 & 17 is hopelessly snarled.
Any present-day news reports are not the lens through which we are to interpret John's words. Your "prophecy" was not a match with Revelation back in 2011; neither is it a match in 2024 either, nor in any year to come.
John told us in Rev. 1:1-3, 1:19, and 22:10 what time frame his book applied to, which tells us that Revelation is a book referring to
ancient history by now.
The only verse in it that would apply to our own generation and our future is
the sealed-up prophecies in Revelation 10:4 which were not written down by John because those particular sealed-up prophecies were future to John's own first-century generation.
When you ignore Christ and the author John's own directive as to which time frame Revelation's writings applied, then your interpretive "prophecy" is going to get skewed in the wrong direction entirely.
: 3 Resurrections Sat Sep 21, 2024 - 09:54:23Not even Christ or John the writer of Revelation would agree with your interpretation of His book. Why then should we agree? Your presentation of the time frame of all these events and the identification of any of the three Beasts in Rev. 13 & 17 is hopelessly snarled.
Any present-day news reports are not the lens through which we are to interpret John's words. Your "prophecy" was not a match with Revelation back in 2011; neither is it a match in 2024 either, nor in any year to come.
John told us in Rev. 1:1-3, 1:19, and 22:10 what time frame his book applied to, which tells us that Revelation is a book referring to ancient history by now. The only verse in it that would apply to our own generation and our future is the sealed-up prophecies in Revelation 10:4 which were not written down by John because those particular sealed-up prophecies were future to John's own first-century generation.
When you ignore Christ and the author John's own directive as to which time frame Revelation's writings applied, then your interpretive "prophecy" is going to get skewed in the wrong direction entirely.
Preterism is like a virus. I take great comfort that many are immune from this ideology. Its' end result is to install blinders on the people of God. Your blinders will not stop the real issues from happening, but they will cause others who follow your beliefs to stumble along the way. I'm not sure what the consequences are for such a perversion of scripture, but I would not like to be the one promoting this and then have to explain myself to God. I don't believe you represent everyone here. The most boastful are usually the first replies I receive, that hunt my words and then try and take them from the people. Read this verse and see if it pertains to you.
Habakkuk 1
King James Version
1 The burden which Habakkuk the prophet did see.
2 O Lord, how long shall I cry, and thou wilt not hear! even cry out unto thee of violence, and thou wilt not save!
3 Why dost thou shew me iniquity, and cause me to behold grievance? for spoiling and violence are before me: and there are that raise up strife and contention.
4 Therefore the law is slacked, and judgment doth never go forth: for the wicked doth compass about the righteous; therefore wrong judgment proceedeth.
5 Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvelously:
for I will work a work in your days which ye will not believe, though it be told you.
Michael777, why would you think that the Habakkuk 1 prophecy about the coming of the Chaldeans, "that bitter and hasty nation" against God's disobedient people of Israel has any identification with me or with what will happen in our future? That Babylonian empire of the Chaldeans rose to power and was later destroyed in a single night by Cyrus taking the city, as God predicted in Isaiah, and as Daniel saw come to pass. What is your point in bringing this up?
I notice that everyone who claims to despise Preterism never offers a response to the internal language that Revelation itself uses which tells us in what time frame those prophecies were going to be fulfilled. Revelation 1:1-3, 1:19, and 22:10 are NOT in agreement with you and your manner of interpreting Revelation for our own days. The scriptures that back up Preterism aren't going to go anywhere, and you ignore these scriptures and others similar to them to your own detriment.
The Revelation prophecies that were "at hand", and were "about to take place" in John's days were NOT going to be extended some 2,000 years down the road to our own times. Revelation's visions were not "parables" - John wrote in Revelation 1:1 that they were meant to be understood by his own immediate first-century readers, with the interpreting angel explaining aspects of those visions for God's servants in those days so that they could understand them.
You are WAAAAAAY too late with your application of Revelation's prophecies, which, as promised, were all fulfilled before John's first-century generation had passed away, with the lone exception of the sealed-up prophecies of Revelation 10:4.
: 3 Resurrections Sat Sep 21, 2024 - 17:53:26I notice that everyone who claims to despise Preterism never offers a response to the internal language that Revelation itself uses which tells us in what time
The Revelation prophecies that were "at hand", and were "about to take place" in John's days were NOT going to be extended some 2,000 years down the road to our own times. Revelation's visions were not "parables" - John wrote in Revelation 1:1 that they were meant to be understood by his own immediate first-century readers, with the interpreting angel explaining aspects of those visions for God's servants in those days so that they could understand them.
That's a false statement. People have been arguing with preterists about their beliefs for years, and giving reasons. You and your people choose not to listen. Now when the facts are smacking you in the face, you still continue to deny them. In the end, I don't care what you believe. You will be set right very soon, and I will be there to see it...
: michael777 Sat Sep 21, 2024 - 18:29:07That's a false statement. People have been arguing with preterists about their beliefs for years, and giving reasons. You and your people choose not to listen. Now when the facts are smacking you in the face, you still continue to deny them. In the end, I don't care what you believe. You will be set right very soon, and I will be there to see it...
Those who interpret Revelation as you do are notorious for avoiding the time-relevant statements that scripture employs. You haven't bothered to address the three references I gave twice already concerning the time frame in which the prophecies of Revelation were said to be fulfilled.
#1 Revelation 1:1-3
#2 Revelation 1:19
#3 Revelation 22:10
ALL of these stipulate that the timing for the prophecies of Revelation's future events being fulfilled were
"at hand", "shortly", and
"about to take place" compared to the time John was writing Revelation.
Christ also told John that "I am coming
quickly", compared to the time when John was writing Revelation. Preterism takes all these terms of imminence at their face value, when others such as yourself turn themselves into a pretzel trying to twist their interpretations of Revelation by avoiding those simple terms.
Why do you even make the statement, "You will be set right
very soon, and I will be there to see it..." when you don't really believe John, Christ, and all the NT authors when they spoke of the
soon appearing of the Lord Jesus Christ in their own generation? It is hypocritical to speak of something happening "soon" in our own days when you totally disregard the same meaning of the term "soon" as the scriptures used it to describe Christ's return in John's days.
ROMANISM AND THE REFORMATION
by H. Grattan Guiness
LECTURE 5
INTERPRETATION AND USE OF THESE PROPHECIES IN PRE-REFORMATION TIMES
5. The Fathers held that the Roman empire was the "let," or hindrance, referred to by Paul in 2 Thessalonians, which kept back the manifestation of the "man of sin." This point is of great importance. Paul distinctly tells us that he knew, and that the Thessalonians knew, what that hindrance was, and that it was then in existence. The early Church, through the writings of the Fathers, tells us what it knew upon the subject, and with remarkable unanimity affirms that this "let," or hindrance, was the Roman empire as governed by the Caesars; that while the Caesars held imperial power, it was impossible for the predicted antichrist to arise, and that on the fall of the Caesars he would arise. Here we have a point on which Paul affirms the existence of knowledge in the Christian Church. The early Church knew, he says, what this hindrance was. The early Church tells us what it did know upon the subject, and no one in these days can be in a position to contradict its testimony as to what Paul had, by word of mouth only, told the Thessalonians. It is a point on which ancient
tradition alone can have any authority. Modern speculation is positively impertinent on such a subject.
What then was the view of the early Church? Look at the words of Tertullian. Quoting Thessalonians, he says: "Now ye know what detaineth that he might be revealed in his time, for the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now hinders must hinder until he be taken out of the way. What obstacle is there but the Roman state; the falling away of which, by being scattered into ten kingdoms, shall introduce antichrist ..that the beast antichrist, with his false prophet, may wage war on the Church of God?" (Tertullian: "On the Resurrection," chaps, 24,25) In his magnificent "Apology," addressed to the rulers of the Roman empire, Tertullian says that the Christian Church — not himself, mark, but the Christian Church — prayed for the emperors, and for the stability of the empire of Rome, because they knew "that a mighty shock impending over the whole earth — in fact, the very end of all things, threatening dreadful woes — was ONLY RETARDED by the continued existence of the Roman empire. " (Apology, Section 32)
Read the words of Chrysostom in his "Commentary on 2 Thessalonians": "One may first naturally inquire what is that which withholdeth, and after that would know why Paul expresses this so obscurely. . 'he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.' That is, when the Roman empire is taken out of the way, then he shall come; and naturally, for as long as the fear of this empire lasts, no one will readily exalt himself; but when that is dissolved, he will attack the anarchy, and endeavor to seize upon the government both of men and of God. For as the kingdoms before this were destroyed, that of the Medes by the Babylonians, that of the Babylonians by the Persians, that of the Persians by the Macedonians, that of the Macedonians by the Romans, so will this be by antichrist, and he by Christ."
Then, accounting for Paul's reserve in alluding to this point he adds: "Because he says this of the Roman empire, he naturally only glanced at it and spoke covertly, for he did not wish to bring upon himself superfluous enmities and useless dangers. For if he had said that, after a little while, the Roman empire would be dissolved, they would now immediately have even overwhelmed him as a pestilent person, and all the faithful as living and warring to this end." (Chrysostom: Homily 4., "On 2 Thessalonians 2.)
From Irenaeus, who lived close to apostolic times, down to Chrysostom and Jerome, the Fathers taught that the power withholding the manifestation of the "man of sin" was the Roman empire as governed by the Caesars. The Fathers therefore belong to the historic, and not to the futurist school of interpretation; for futurists imagine that the hindrance to the manifestation of the man of sin is still in existence, though the Caesars have long since passed away.
6. The Fathers held that the fall of the Roman empire was imminent, and therefore the manifestation of antichrist close at hand Justin Martyr, for example, one of the earliest of the Fathers, in his "Dialogue with Trypho," chapter 22, says: "He whom Daniel foretells would have dominion for 'time and times and a half ' is already even at the door, about to speak his blasphemous and daring things against the Most High." Cyprian, in his "Exhortation to Martyrdom," says: "Since..the hateful time of antichrist is already beginning to draw near, I would collect from the sacred Scriptures some exhortations for preparing and strengthening the minds of the brethren, whereby I might animate the soldiers of Christ for the heavenly and spiritual contest." (Treatise 11.)
7. The Fathers held that the "man of sin" or antichrist, would be a ruler or head of the Roman empire. A striking illustration of this is the interpretation by Irenaeus and Hippolytus of the mysterious number 666, the number of the revived beast, or antichrist. Irenaeus gives as its interpretation the word Latinos. He says: "Latinos is the number 666, and it is a very probable (solution), this being the name of the last kingdom, for the LATINS are they who at present bear rule. " (Irenoeus: "AgainstHeresies," book 5, chapter 30.)
Hippolytus gives the same solution in his treatise on "Christ and Antichrist."
8. The Fathers held that the Babylon of the Apocalypse means Rome. On this point they were all agreed and their unanimity is an important seal on the correctness of this interpretation. Tertullian, for example, in his answer to the Jews, says:
"Babylon, in our own John, is a figure of the city Rome, as being equally great and proud of her sway, and triumphant over the saints" (chapter 9.). Victorinus, who wrote the earliest commentary on the Apocalypse extant, says, on Revelation 17: "The seven heads are the seven hills on which the woman sitteth — that is, the city of Rome."
Hippolytus says: "Tell me, blessed John, apostle and disciple of the Lord, what didst thou see and hear concerning Babylon? Arise and speak, for it sent thee also into banishment."(Treatise "On Christ and Antichrist,"Section 36.) You notice here the view that Rome which banished the Apostle John is the Babylon of the Apocalypse. Augustine says, "Rome, the second Babylon, and the daughter of the first, to which it pleased God to subject the whole world, and bring it all under one sovereignty, was now founded." (City of God," book 18, chapter 22.)
In chapter 28, he calls Rome "the western Babylon." In chapter 41 he says: "It has not been in vain that this
city has received the mysterious name of Babylon; for Babylon is interpreted confusion, as we have said elsewhere." It is clear from these quotations that the Fathers did not interpret the Babylon of the Apocalypse as meaning either the literal Babylon on the Euphrates, or some great city in France or England, but as meaning Rome. And this is still the interpretation of the historic school, though for the last 800 years events have proved Babylon to represent Rome, not in its pagan, but in its Papal form.
LECTURE 5
As to the "let" or hindrance to the manifestation of the "man of sin" referred to in 2 Thessalonians 2, Mr. Elliott says: "We have the consenting testimony of the early Fathers, from Irenoeus, the disciple of the disciple of St. John, down to Chrysostom and Jerome, to the effect that it was understood to be the imperial power ruling and residing at Rome." — Horae Apocalypticae, vol. 3., p. 92.
Irenaeus held that the division of the Roman empire into ten kingdoms would immediately precede the manifestation of antichrist. In his work, "Against Heresies," book 5, chapter 30, he says, "Let them await, in the first place, the division of the kingdom into ten; then, in the next place, when these kings are reigning, and beginning to set their affairs in order and advance their kingdom, (let them learn) to acknowledge that he who shall come claiming the kingdom for himself and shall terrify those sons of men of whom we have been speaking, having a name containing the aforesaid number (666), is truly the abomination of desolation." Thus, according to Irenaeus, the manifestation of antichrist required the previous overthrow of the then existing Roman empire.
"Tertullian's Apology" thus describes the habit of the Christian Church of the second century to pray for the security of the Roman empire, in the knowledge that its downfall would bring the catastrophe of the reign of antichrist and the ruin of the world. Addressing the "rulers of the Roman empire," he says: "We offer prayer for the safety of our princes to the eternal, the true, the living God, whose favor, beyond all others, they must themselves desire..Thither we lift our eyes, with hands outstretched, because free from sin; with head uncovered, for we have nothing whereof to be ashamed; finally, without a monitor, because it is from the heart we supplicate. And without ceasing for all our emperors we offer prayer. We pray for life prolonged; for security to the empire.. With our hands thus stretched out and up to God, rend us with your iron claws, hang us up on crosses, wrap us in flames, take our heads from us with the sword, let loose the wild beasts upon us — the very attitude of a Christian praying is the preparation for all punishment. Let this, good rulers, be your work, wring from us the soul, beseeching God on the emperor's behalf. Upon the truth of God and devotion to His name put the brand of crime ..There is also another and a greater necessity for our offering prayer in behalf of the emperors, nay, for the complete stability of the empire, and for Roman interests in general. For we know that a mighty shock impending over the whole earth — in fact, the very end of all things, threatening dreadful woes — is only retarded by the continued existence of the Roman empire. We have no desire then to be overtaken by these dire events; and in praying that their coming may be delayed, we are lending our aid to Rome's duration." — "Apology," Sections 30-32.
This narrative will attempt to show how the answers are figured out. These answers can be seen from events that happen in the nightly news. This leads me to a key, which most of us know, but most of us forget. The Bible is a history book. Some events have happened, while some are waiting to happen. It is the ones that have not happened that we are most concerned with. Here is another key. By the way, these keys I speak of are keys to understanding. The Lord spoke in parables. The reason he gave was that it was for some to know the mysteries of God, while it was for some to know not. In hearing, they do not hear. In seeing, they do not see. I compare it to telling the truth, while hiding it at the same time. Many of the parables that the Lord spoke he immediately gave an answer to. He showed how he used certain symbols and words to describe subjects and then gave their meanings. Now for the punch line. The Lord also spoke in parables that he did not identify. These parables go straight to the hidden meaning of these end times. Another key is word substitution. An example of this is a pretty well-known item from Revelation. This word substitution deals with Revelation 13:1. The beast has seven heads and ten horns. In Revelation 17 those heads and horns are defined. The heads are identified as mountains, while the horns are identified as kings. This changes the whole picture of what the beast is symbolically to what it is literally. Now Rev.13:1 can be read as follows with just the items discussed thus far. And I saw a beast rise up out of the sea having seven mountains and ten kings. That is a simple and easy word substitution. Know that this will happen many times throughout the Bible..
Or, you could use scripture itself to determine what the prophetic interpretation of mountains, beasts, kings, and or heads represent. In doing so, you would find that mountains, beasts, kings, and heads, have all been used in biblical prophecy to represent kingdoms or empires. More specifically, the kingdoms or empires of the beasts of the book of Daniel chapter seven, and or the antagonistic kingdoms of God and Satan. Realizing that these prophecies are about the struggles between the kingdom of God here on earth through His people, and the main kingdoms or empires of this world largely controlled by Satan, existing in the greatest relation to and or persecution of God's very own throughout history. As the books of Daniel and the Revelation clearly depict, and often identify them, as the two books are most obviously linked together. The opening of Revelation 13, directly ties the beast being addressed in the same chapter, to the four beasts of the book of Daniel chapter 7.
Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto
a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of
a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of
a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
John was speaking this prophecy from the time of the Roman Empire. The historicist interpreted fourth beast of the book Daniel chapter 7. A leopard was the historicist third kingdom or empire of the same chapter in Daniel, the Grecian kingdom. A bear raised up on one side was the second historicist beast of the same chapter, the Medo-Persian kingdom. And a lion was the first prophetic kingdom identified in the same chapter, the kingdom of Babylon. So that Revelation 13 verses one and two give a perfect retrospect of the succeeding beasts or kingdoms of prophecy up to the time this prophecy was given. Going backwards in history, connecting all these kingdoms as individual beasts, heads, mountains, or kings, as identified or used interchangeably in the books of Daniel and the Revelation. More specifically in Revelation 17:7-11.
More concerning the rest of your observations later.
Now, getting back to the questions. The question is, where is Satan? If this question can be answered, you will have eliminated some others. Some prophecy teachers believe that Satan is the beast, or that Satan is the false prophet, which is misleading and puts a stumbling block square in the road to a proper interpretation. I almost always get this question. How can you know who the beast is when he cannot be revealed? 2nd Thess. Chapter 2 states that he cannot be revealed, until something is removed first. Most scholars have this part right. That is a picture of the Rapture. What they have wrong is that Satan and the beast are not the same individual. Satan cannot be revealed until after the rapture, but he is not the beast. Therefore, I can identify the beast and his false prophet. People say prove it. So I did. I told them how to understand using the keys that I have mentioned. Revelation 13 is a parable, but God is not giving the definition, or the explanation. This one is for us to figure out. Ok, so where is Satan? In the book of Job, we get a view of Satan's abilities. In one scene, he is discussing with God about Job. Question, where is God? He is in heaven. Also, in his conversation with God Satan is talking as if he knows and has seen Job. God declares that he can do whatever he wants to Job, but he was not allowed to kill him. Now we know something else about Satan. He also has access to the Earth, and can affect peoples lives. So, it appears that Satan can be everywhere he wants to be, on Earth or in heaven. We know Satan and his angels will be cast out of heaven as per Revelation 12. This would further the idea that he is now in heaven. We also see Satan one other time, when he tempted Christ during his time on Earth. It says that he was taken to the wilderness to be tempted of Satan? Most people, and rightly so, have thought the wilderness to be a place on Earth, but this is a parable I believe. The Lord was in the wilderness and was tempted by Satan, but the wilderness is in heaven. This parable is read in Isaiah 35. It is the wilderness and the solitary place where the redeemed of the Lord walk. So, this last item being the most hard to prove, suffice it to say, that when Rev.12 says Satan will be cast out, he must be there in heaven to be cast out. Alright, now we can answer a couple questions. One, Satan is himself, and he is in heaven. Therefore, he is not the beast or the false prophet. These three work together, but each has his own identity.
Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said,
From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.Job 2:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said,
From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant;
because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:The devil's attention is and has been focussed upon this earth. This is where he spent most of his time carrying on his rebellion against God through humanity who had fallen to his deceptions. The book of Revelation 12 however, points out that he was cast down to this earth when he lost the battle to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. 3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not;
neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.
Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.The devil and his angels were cast out of heaven, at the very least, when our Lord Jesus defeated them here on earth. If not before this time. They were cast down to the earth. They are no longer in heaven, neither was their place found any more in heaven, for them.
You are correct in stating that the devil is not the antichrist at least yet, or one of the beasts of Revelation 13. For there are two beasts in Revelation 13. The beasts, kingdoms, mountains, or heads of the various prophecies are those through which the devil has continued to carry out his rebellion against God on this earth. Existing in direct relation to God's kingdom on this earth, through His chosen people, Israel or the Church of Christ in the Old and New Covenants.
: Amo Thu Oct 03, 2024 - 11:50:57Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Job 2:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
The devil's attention is and has been focussed upon this earth. This is where he spent most of his time carrying on his rebellion against God through humanity who had fallen to his deceptions. The book of Revelation 12 however, points out that he was cast down to this earth when he lost the battle to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. 3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
The devil and his angels were cast out of heaven, at the very least, when our Lord Jesus defeated them here on earth. If not before this time. They were cast down to the earth. They are no longer in heaven, neither was their place found any more in heaven, for them.
You are correct in stating that the devil is not the antichrist at least yet, or one of the beasts of Revelation 13. For there are two beasts in Revelation 13. The beasts, kingdoms, mountains, or heads of the various prophecies are those through which the devil has continued to carry out his rebellion against God on this earth. Existing in direct relation to God's kingdom on this earth, through His chosen people, Israel or the Church of Christ in the Old and New Covenants.
It would seem you are confused as to the doctrine of the antichrist.
Satan the lying father of lies who brings false prohecy oral traditons through antichrists' plural called the legion.
Antichrist simple another authroity other than that of sola scriptura.
Mathew 16 showing the works / using Peter as one of the many antichrists' that were there. Peter the serial denier rebuked the unseen Holy Father and forbid the Son of man Jesus from doing his Fathers will .
Its necessary to read the bible before you can believe the author.
Matthew 16: 22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it
far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
"Will" wonder after the beast? Perhaps as John's prophecy looked forward to what was to come in his future.
But what might we find regarding fulfilled prophecy, if we exercise a more scholarly ethnographic hermeneutic of "world", as Strong's suggests:
I would offer God gave living aiding words to John Prophecy, the declaration of Christ. . it looks ahead, back and the present. Remember as the Lamb slain from the foundation he finished all the works in 6 days .Nothing new under the Sun.
The key is to not wonder or marvel rather than believe prophecy sealed up till the end of time under the Sun .
Satan the king of lying signs to wonder, wonder, wonder after as if true prophecy is the reason Christ spoke in parables without parables .Hiding the spiritual gospel understanding from the father of lies the wondering, wondering god.. Not subject to the gospel. He has no understanding coming from the Holy Father. Without the signified understanding of parables Christ spoke not
Parable do not change the historical they do enrich it with grace
2 Thessalonians2: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and
lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
Lying wonders oral traditons of dying mankind
Revelation in verse 1 identifies the kind of prophetic tongue and not that he only sent it but signified a parable .Chapter 2:17 calls it hidden manna our daily bread .
It would seem manna represents a parable. Manna literally a question .What is it? Perhaps the call of the Holy Father???
Revelation 1 King James Version The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Again it would seem to be a false fear to believe parables change the historical and not enrich. In that way its not about culture change but the power of the gospel to save. The two temporal and eternal must be mixed. The gospel recipe
Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which
no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Know man knows. The Holy Father making it personal
Without parable the
signified tongue using the
dying things seen to give the spiritual understanding hid from the father of lies. Our Holy Father loves to revealed it to sons of God, Christians . . without the signified Christ spoke not .
You could say the "Let there be" and it was good. Signs follow the invisible eternal.
The king of lying signs to wonder after just as true prophecy on the increase today.
In that way parables teach us
how to walk (understand). By Christ's faithful "Let there be" labor of love.
Faith the unseen eternal things of our Holy Father and not of our own undestanding. . . .but of the new born again powerful faith of Christ
: PeteWaldo Sun Nov 08, 2015 - 07:56:21We as Christians do not have to speculate, ......
But didn't you go on to do just that?
I couldn't agree more.
So how does scripture interpret apostate Christianity as having something to do with a leopard, bear and lion? I would appreciate very much if you begin your reply by answering that question.
When we search scripture for interpretation through an adjacent hermeneutic, why do you suppose it is that we find Daniel's prophecy uses these very same three figures when describing those kingdom "beasts", also within the same context of the figurative language of a prophetic dream?
(as detailed in the last post on the prior page)
When we close our eyes to such a simple, stunning and profound interpretation revealed by scripture, what else might our having done so, close our eyes to?
"Will" wonder after the beast? Perhaps as John's prophecy looked forward to what was to come in his future.
But what might we find regarding fulfilled prophecy, if we exercise a more scholarly ethnographic hermeneutic of "world", as Strong's suggests:
world
New Testament Greek Definition:
3625 oikoumene {oy-kou-men'-ay}
feminine participle present passive of 3611 (as noun, by
implication of 1093); TDNT - 5:157,674; n f
AV - world 14, earth 1; 15
1) the inhabited earth
1a) the portion of the earth inhabited by the Greeks, in
distinction from the lands of the barbarians
1b) the Roman empire, all the subjects of the empire
1c) the whole inhabited earth, the world
1d) the inhabitants of the earth, men
2) the universe, the world
If you look at a map of the spiritual condition of the prophet John's whole "world", outside of that tiny little strip of land of Israel protected by the democracy of the Israeli Jewish State, virtually everyone in John's world does indeed wonder after THE false prophet Muhammad's Islamic kingdom "beast".
Besides their being commanded to fight and slay non-Muslims (and specifically Jews and Christians) as Satan binds on them in the Quran, wouldn't you say the following might qualify as devil worship "in the true sense of those words", that is in fact engaged in by not only virtually everyone in John's whole "world" but by 1/4 of mankind around the world today, as articles of their "faith" in THE false prophet Muhammad alone?
Surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus ..... but they killed him not, nor crucified him ..... for of a surety they killed him not:-
Surah 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!
Do those strike you as words that would be inspired by the jealous fallen angel named Satan?
While I've no sympathy for the apostate church, does even the vast majority of the apostate church deny that Jesus is the Son of God or deny His crucifixion and shed blood?
While suggesting that may fit your pre-conceived notion, does it fit the Koine Greek that indicates a single individual? Try to make sense of your own sentence: "The false prophet are all prophets....."
Virtually 100% of John's world worship the Islamic beast. The pinnacle of worship in Islam is Jihad, as practiced by orthodox followers of THE false prophet Muhammad not only in John's "world" but around much of the rest of the world today.
The tiny little remnant of non-Muslims in John's whole "world", are being wiped out by those that carry the name of the Islamic beast as I write, who not only can't buy or sell but are fleeing for their very lives.
As is happening throughout John's world, even beheading children for refusing to renounce Jesus Christ and parrot the Islamic shahada (the Islamic statement of "faith"). "There is no god by Allah and Muhammad is his messenger".
Like those that contain the very same figures of lion, bear and leopard.
Nor does history.
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
Bing search - muhammad 666
John wasn't prophesying about Peoria Illinois. Through an ethnographic hermeneutic, the prophet John's whole world (outside of Israel) is virtually 100% Muslim. Consider:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Anecdotally, many even carry a physical mark or "prayer bump" on their foreheads, from pressing them to the ground 5 times a day while praying in the "vain repetitions of the heathen" as scripture refers to salat. Bing search images for "prayer bump".
As we can see through a more scholarly ethnographic hermeneutic, virtually 100% of John's whole "world" is already marked by the name of the beast - Islam - which would render the mark of the beast a fulfilled prophecy.
::amen!::
: garee Fri Oct 24, 2025 - 17:56:03::amen!::
One thing I would add in those parables the signified tongue of prophecy that use metaphors to give us the unseen spiritual understanding hid from the father of lies called spiritual words.(again hidden understanding)
As a mark 9 times Revelation a sign 2 times. A world of differnce that Satan would make one in the same. Again his lies are not subject to spiritual understanding the gospel the mysteries of His faith .
God will not sent a hunger for the foods of this world that come out as draught but a hunger for hearing the gospel and believing its power .
Proverbs 23:23 Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.
Mark to represent a promise (God's word does not return void of his gospel understanding .666 the mark of Cain unredeemed mankind
Signs as that attributed to the unredeemed they must seek after a sign the things seen thy have no powerful faith as prophecy coming from Christ's labor of love , we therefore buy the gospel truth and sell it not. . . with it pray for understanding.
: garee Fri Oct 17, 2025 - 18:16:40It would seem you are confused as to the doctrine of the antichrist.
Satan the lying father of lies who brings false prohecy oral traditons through antichrists' plural called the legion.
Antichrist simple another authroity other than that of sola scriptura.
Mathew 16 showing the works / using Peter as one of the many antichrists' that were there. Peter the serial denier rebuked the unseen Holy Father and forbid the Son of man Jesus from doing his Fathers will .
Its necessary to read the bible before you can believe the author.
Matthew 16: 22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Hmmmm? This message board sure does disappear and reappear a lot. I had been posting on another board, but they started locking down all my threads. Then I couldn't get on them. Then they apparently removed me from their membership. Just as well, they were big on censorship, and even defending the same.
I'm pretty sure I am not the one who is confused about what the bible says, between us, as I have read it many times over, and continue to do so. I am somewhat confused as to exactly what you are saying though, perhaps you could make a little more sense of it, by expounding.
If everyone who ever is mistaken about truth at one time or another, is an antichrist, then I guess we all are or have been at one time or another. Antichrist intends to stand in the place of Christ, denies that Christ came in the flesh, and that He was God's Son, thereby denying the Father also.
Apart from this a great many Christians long before us, also connected the man of sin, and the eleventh or little horn of Daniels prophecies to the antichrist or antichrist system as well. And rightly so, as so very many more Christians have determined and agreed upon these points as well throughout history. Since the leader of the organization and its teachings basically do the same thing as antichrist.
: michael777 Wed Jul 06, 2011 - 15:58:46The Beast Revelation
This letter is dedicated to all Christians.
The following letter is a summary of Revelation 13...
Christian films often portray that all those who have not received the mark of the beast will be killed, this is a symbolic truth. The circumstances are true, but they missed the real meaning due to some failed interpretations. All those who have not taken the mark are killed, this part is true, but those who have not taken the mark are Hamas. The mark was given during the elections for the president of the Palestinian authority, which was boycotted by Hamas. Hamas has never received the mark. Films like to portray all people as subject to the mark. This part is wrong. It only affects those Palestinians who did not take the mark, and not the whole world. It is only Hamas. This makes the mark as what the letter indicates. It was the indelible ink brand given to those who voted in the Palestinian elections.
The 'beast' concept in the Book of Revelation is applied two ways. It can be about a 'beast kingdom', or a 'beast king' who is over that kingdom. This is really important to distinguish when reading the Revelation 17 Chapter, because the subject changes very quickly within those verses between both beasts.
The Rev.13:1 beast is a system, a kingdom, simply because it is defined as having seven heads, ten horns, and ten crowns. Daniel 7 defined the ten horns as ten kings, so we know the ten horns certainly is not about a single individual. With that first beast of Rev.13 one must stay focused, even though it is using possessive pronouns that appear to point to a singular Antichrist, yet it is a beast kingdom, and not the actual Antichrist beast king.
Starting at Revelation 13:11 with the "another beast", that is about a singular individual, the 'beast king'. He is the one Jesus described as the pseudo-Christ of Matthew 24:23-26, who is to come at the end working great signs, wonders, and miracles to deceive the whole world. He is the 'king' over the bottomless pit of Rev.9. He will be the 7th beast king which John showed in Rev.17, which is about the end of this present world.
Many brethren don't know it, but Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, actually wrote the 4th Chapter of the Book of Daniel. He shows how God punished him by making him live like an animal, among the animals, which is about type of disease that can be documented in medicine. It serves about as clear as a 'beast king' metaphor for Neb as one can get. Neb was king over a beast empire, Babylon, and most likely one of the previous 5 kings that John mentioned that were already past per Rev.17.
: Amo Mon Dec 01, 2025 - 09:57:57Hmmmm? This message board sure does disappear and reappear a lot. I had been posting on another board, but they started locking down all my threads. Then I couldn't get on them. Then they apparently removed me from their membership. Just as well, they were big on censorship, and even defending the same.
I'm pretty sure I am not the one who is confused about what the bible says, between us, as I have read it many times over, and continue to do so. I am somewhat confused as to exactly what you are saying though, perhaps you could make a little more sense of it, by expounding.
If everyone who ever is mistaken about truth at one time or another, is an antichrist, then I guess we all are or have been at one time or another. Antichrist intends to stand in the place of Christ, denies that Christ came in the flesh, and that He was God's Son, thereby denying the Father also.
Apart from this a great many Christians long before us, also connected the man of sin, and the eleventh or little horn of Daniels prophecies to the antichrist or antichrist system as well. And rightly so, as so very many more Christians have determined and agreed upon these points as well throughout history. Since the leader of the organization and its teachings basically do the same thing as antichrist.
Thanks again the key decipher the differnce between the word sign used 2 times in revelation and the word mark 9 times. two sided coin one side hidden Satan like all spiritual words would make them to no efect so that dying mankind would rather seek his lying sign to wonder, wonder, marvel
after just as if Christ was still bring new prophecy. The buying and selling does not have to do with worldly goods God sends famine for hearing the gospel We are to buy the Gospel truth the mark of His living word and do not sell it with it receive living hope in understanding---- Christ in us the mark of His love as sign to the unbelieving world .
The mark Cain Not a outward sign-- whatsoever Christ says will come to pass . the old let there be and it was God alone good
AI edited 1. The word "sign" in Revelation — something shown to reveal meaning ✨
The Greek word translated "sign" is sēmeion (σημεῖον), meaning a symbol that points beyond itself to a deeper reality.
For example:
Revelation 12:1
"And there appeared a great wonder (sign) in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun..."
And:
Revelation 12:3
"And there appeared another wonder (sign) in heaven; and behold a great red dragon..."
These signs represent spiritual realities revealed symbolically.
Signs in Revelation function as revelatory symbols, not literal physical objects.
They reveal truth.
2. The word "mark" in Revelation — something identifying allegiance ⚖️
The Greek word translated "mark" is charagma (χάραγμα), meaning an imprint, stamp, or identifying mark.
For example:
Revelation 13:16–17
"He causeth all... to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark..."
This mark identifies belonging or allegiance.
It distinguishes between two spiritual loyalties.
3. Scripture shows God also places His mark or seal on His people 🔒
There is a direct contrast in Revelation:
Revelation 7:3
"Hurt not the earth... till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."
And:
Revelation 14:1
"Having his Father's name written in their foreheads."
This seal represents belonging to God.
Paul describes this as well:
Ephesians 1:13
"Ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise."
This is God's identifying mark on believers.
4. The famine for hearing the word of God — a spiritual famine 🌾
You mentioned famine not of bread, but of hearing truth. Scripture says exactly this:
Amos 8:11
"I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread... but of hearing the words of the LORD."
This refers to spiritual deprivation — loss of truth and understanding.
Truth becomes precious.
5. Buying truth without selling it — Scripture uses this exact language 💎
Proverbs 23:23
"Buy the truth, and sell it not."
This means:
Receive truth
Keep truth
Do not exchange truth for error
This aligns with your point about spiritual value rather than material commerce.
6. The mark placed on Cain — a protective sign, not a physical brand
Scripture says:
Genesis 4:15
"The LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him."
The Hebrew word (oth) also means sign or token.
Its purpose was protection and identification.
Not described as a visible brand in detail.
7. The deepest contrast in Revelation: two identities, two allegiances
Revelation presents two spiritual conditions:
Those belonging to God:
Sealed by God
Bear His name
Receive life
Those aligned with the beast:
Receive the beast's mark
Follow deception
This reflects spiritual allegiance.
8. The central truth — Christ in believers is the true life and hope 🌅
Paul describes the true inward reality:
Colossians 1:27
"Christ in you, the hope of glory."
And:
2 Corinthians 1:22
"Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."
This seal represents belonging to God.
9. Signs point, marks identify, seals protect
In summary:
Sign → reveals or points to truth
Mark → identifies allegiance
Seal → confirms belonging to God
All used symbolically and spiritually in Scripture.
: michael777 Thu Jan 08, 2026 - 20:48:26 Christian films often portray that all those who have not received the mark of the beast will be killed, this is a symbolic truth. The circumstances are true, but they missed the real meaning due to some failed interpretations. All those who have not taken the mark are killed, this part is true, but those who have not taken the mark are Hamas. The mark was given during the elections for the president of the Palestinian authority, which was boycotted by Hamas. Hamas has never received the mark. Films like to portray all people as subject to the mark. This part is wrong. It only affects those Palestinians who did not take the mark, and not the whole world. It is only Hamas. This makes the mark as what the letter indicates. It was the indelible ink brand given to those who voted in the Palestinian elections.
The following is an exchange of ideas on a popular forum. I thought that it was quite indicative of the state of the Christian mind today.
BH said:
"In no reality does Hamas represent those who have not taken the brand. They are murderers, liars, they kill babies, rape women and call it divine, they manipulate the media to make themselves look better than they are, and those who live in darkness believe in media manipulation. I am sorry to tell you this, but your mind is in darkness, and the light of the Lord Jesus is far from your perception.
My answer follows.
Christians are deceived by their own interpretations. They believe in them so firmly that when the true meaning is presented, it is completely rejected. The Lord said that He would do a work in our day, which, even if it were told, would not be believed. Your problem goes back a long way. It begins with one failed interpretation after another. What I find so astonishing about this topic is that no matter how many times I am right, Christians will always deny what I have presented. In your world, you are waiting for some kind of mark that will be implemented worldwide. I have discussed this in the letter. The first thing you need to know is who is being talked about. If you say "all people", then you will already be starting from a false premise. Then, you'll need to imagine a series of circumstances to match your conclusions. The most revealing of your interpretations is that you say nothing. You do not provide any details, and it is always coming soon. What bothers me the most is that you hide the real answers. It is a total shame that a person spends his whole life learning his beliefs, and when the time comes to apply the meanings, has no idea. The Lord said to watch. You have failed in this undertaking. You did something though, you interpreted. Now you are waiting for your ideas to come true, which will never happen.
This paragraph is not part of the original response.
It is easy to discern from B.H.'s commentary a certain set of beliefs. What he believes is that Hamas could not be the one that did not accept the mark because they are terrorists. Meaning that the mark will be implemented on a different group. A group that does not commit terrorist acts. Who is this group? If you've been following these teachers for years, the answer is clear. All those who have not accepted the mark are Christians. Christians will not accept the mark because they do not want to worship the beast, even under the penalty of not being able to buy or sell. This is the set of beliefs that B. H. holds as truth while he disputes me, that I should accept as true, which he does not even realize has been corrupted. False teachings that have been accepted by the majority have turned the true meaning of Revelation 13 into a polar opposite. Why would anyone consider what I have to say when such false teachings are so widely believed? I just wanted to emphasize this point because it's a blinder over the eyes of anyone interested in Bible prophecy. michae1
: LaSpino3 Sun Jul 17, 2011 - 16:48:56Michael, I meant no disrespect when I asked if you wrote the article. Also, I find it more advantages to post long articles in shorter parts. Just make the readers aware of it.
I have another question, "When you say Satan still has access in heaven, I assume you mean before the throne of God, is that correct?
But if I am to understand the text, and context of Rev.12, is there any way that Satan and his demons were cast forever out of heaven when Christ assended into heaven, Acts 1:9? Had He not already defeated Satan (death and hell) at the cross? Christ's kingdom was already established in heaven, see the Lord's prayer, but not on earth, making me understand that Satan was cast out. ::shrug::
Phil LaSpino
Anyone who understands the forming of the Revelation "beast" for the end, which Rev.13:4-8 even says the "dragon" (Satan) will have power over all... nations and peoples at the end for 42 months, should not be thinking that God's work for Satan during this present world ended with the cross.
Per John 18:36, Jesus said His Kingdom is not of this world, otherwise His servants would fight to prevent Him from being delivered up. We've still got a ways to go in this present world, and so does what God has ordained for Satan to do at the end is also included.
To bow down or show reverence to something in a spiritual sense is a serious matter. Scripture continually directs our worship to the unseen God rather than to created dying things.
One man knelt before Jesus, the Son of Man, and said:-----Mark 10:17–18 (KJV)"And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God."
From my understanding of this passage, Jesus directed all glory to His Holy Father, the one good infalible teaching Master.
Peter also illustrates the danger of looking to the visible rather than the invisible. On the mount of transfiguration he wanted to build three tabernacles:
Mark 9:5 (KJV)"Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias."
To me, Peter was still thinking in terms of visible signs. Throughout the Gospels the disciples often desired visible demonstrations before they would fully understand. Yet Jesus continually directed them beyond the visible to the Father's purpose.
The final sign He gave was the sign of Jonah:
Matthew 12:40 (KJV)
"For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
The demonstrations pointed beyond themselves to the finished work of God.
The ceremonial shadows of the Old Testament pointed forward to Christ. They were never the substance themselves. Nadab and Abihu remind us of the danger of adding what God had not commanded. Their offering of strange fire became a warning against altering God's pattern.
The church still has visible demonstrations, but they are signs pointing beyond themselves. Whether believers gather in a house or in a great assembly, the purpose is the same—to bear witness to the unseen work of our Holy Father.
The glory never belongs to the outward sign. It belongs to the invisible God who works in His people. The demonstration is not the source of faith; it points to the One who is.