Christian Forums

.

The Bible says that if I decide to be vegetarian, it is acceptable to God, but if I teach it, it is wrong (1Tim 4:1-3).  The same thing for living a cellibate life, it is ok if I decide to do it myself, but it is wrong to teach it as a doctrine of God.  The same conclusion can be reached concerning tithing.

The Law of Tithing (as given to Moses)

1.  Only land owners (farmers) that were growing crops or raising cattle in Israel had to tithe.  People that did not own land could not tithe.  The only thing acceptable as a tithing offering were agricultural products like corn, wine, strong drinks, oil, tithe of the herd or of the flock like lambs, sheep, goats, etc.. (see Deu 14:23,26; 2Chr 31:6; Neh 10:37;  Neh 13:5,12).  The poor people that did not own any land could not tithe.  When Peter caught 153 fishes (John 21:11), he owed nothing as tithe offering because it is the tithe of the land, not the sea.  The Lord referred to this arrangement as:

a.   The tithe of the land (Lev 27:30)
b.   The tithe of the ground (Neh 10:37)
c.   The tithe of the field (Deu 14:22; 2Chr 31:4-6; Neh 12:44)

2.  Carpenters were not required to tithe 10% of their income.  According to the law of Moses, money was not accepted by God as a tithe offering.

3.  The Israelites had to give 10 % of their land products to the Levites because they did not have land as an inheritance.  They had the Lord as their inheritance. 

4.  Tithing was also given to the poor and needy (widows, orphans, newcomers to the land).  Tithing was part of God's welfare program. (Deu 12:29; Deu 14:28-29; Deu 26:12-13).  The poor did not give tithe, the poor received the tithe (Deu 14:28-29; Deu 26:12-13).  To ask the poor to tithe is exactly the opposite of what God established in His Word.

5.  The tithing for the poor had to be placed at the entrance of the cities in Israel where the Levites and the poor will come to collect it (Deu 14:28-29).  The Levites will then bring the tithes to the Temple in Jerusalem.

6.  The tithing offering for the Levite was only acceptable by God when it was presented to the Levites in the Temple of God in Jerusalem (Deu 12:5-6,11,18; Deu 14:23).   God repeated that every time he mentioned the law of tithing.

7.  God gave warnings to the people of not changing the law of tithing based on human reasoning, not to change it into something that made sense or was right in the eyes of the people, not to add or subtract from it, but to teach it exactly the way the commanded it (Dec 12:8,32).

8.  If the Jews lived too far from Jerusalem, they were allowed to turn their agricultural products (their tithe) into money (to eliminate traveling with produce and animals).  But once they arrived at Jerusalem, they had to turn the money into agricultural products before bringing the offering to God because God did not accept money as a tithing offering.  The reason was so that the tithing offering could be eaten before the Lord in his Temple. (Deu 14:24-26).

9.  Because they had to bring their tithes to the Temple in Jerusalem, God did not make it a burden to those living far away from Jerusalem, to travel every week or every month to bring the tithe.  Instead, he told the Israelites that they had to bring their tithes once every 3 years. That year was called the year of tithing (see Deu 14:28; Deu 26:12; Amos 4:4).

10.  If the people failed to bring in their tithes in the year of tithing, they were commanded by the law to bring them back the next year of tithing (3 years later) with 20 percent interest.  To be financially accurate, twenty percent interest every 3 years translates to 6.3 % interest per year or 0.12 % interest per week.  It is not 20% interest added the next Sunday after someone missed the offering. See Lev 27:31.

11.  The tithe or the 10th part of the agricultural products in Israel belonged to the Lord.  It really belonged to him because man put the seed on the ground, but it was the Lord that made it grow.  The Lord did most of the work.  That is why he considered it robbery not to give Him his part.  He had earned it.  The Lord in turn, gave what belonged to him to the Levite and the poor. (Lev 27:30; Num 18:24; Deu 26:12; Neh 13:5; Mal 3:8-10).   

12.  The tithe was defined as the tenth part (the last 10th, not the first 10th).  If a man had 39 sheep born in his farm, he owed 3 sheep as his tithes, not 4 (see Lev 27:32). 

13.  The Law of God required the Levites to give a tenth of the tithes that they received back unto the Lord. (Num 18:26).  This had to be the best of the tithe and the Levite had to give it to the priests that ministered in the Temple (for their consumption).

14.  People did not GIVE tithes to God, they PAID tithes to God because it belonged to God.  To not do it, was robbing God. Because the tithe did not belong to the people, they could not give it, they had to pay it.  We cannot give what does not belong to us.  In the NT we are called to GIVE 2Cor 9:7) because it really belongs to us (Acts 5:4).

Because the Temple is no longer in place in Jerusalem and there are no Levites running a priesthood anymore, all the laws connected with the Levitical priesthood and the Temple are no longer in effect.  That is why the Jews do not kill a lamb during Passover, no one offers animals for sin offerings, there are no more animal sacrifices.  Those laws are gone with the Temple and the priesthood.  The law of tithing is part of that group.  Rom 4:15; Rom 5:13 and 1 Jo 3:4 say that where there is no law, there is no transgression, and sin cannot be inputted where there is no law.  Because of that, since the Temple was destroyed and the Levitical priesthood disappeared, no one is robbing God of anything when people fail to bring their tithes (their agricultural products to the Levites in the Temple). 

Furthermore, Colossians 2:14 and Eph 2:15 reiterate that Jesus removed those laws when he was nailed to the cross.

Col 2:14  Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Eph 2:15  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments; for to make in himself of two one new man, so making peace. 

      The current law of tithing preached in today's protestant churches (requiring that 10% of our gross salaries belong to God and that we are robbing him if we do not do that) is not in the Bible.  That is a commandment of man.  God said that our heart is far from God and our worship is in vain when we teach as doctrines commandments of men. 

Shalom

: Talking Donkey  Mon Aug 22, 2011 - 08:05:18
The Bible says that if I decide to be vegetarian, it is acceptable to God, but if I teach it, it is wrong (1Tim 4:1-3).  The same thing for living a cellibate life, it is ok if I decide to do it myself, but it is wrong to teach it as a doctrine of God.  The same conclusion can be reached concerning tithing.

The Law of Tithing (as given to Moses)

1.  Only land owners (farmers) that were growing crops or raising cattle in Israel had to tithe.  People that did not own land could not tithe.  The only thing acceptable as a tithing offering were agricultural products like corn, wine, strong drinks, oil, tithe of the herd or of the flock like lambs, sheep, goats, etc.. (see Deu 14:23,26; 2Chr 31:6; Neh 10:37;  Neh 13:5,12).  The poor people that did not own any land could not tithe.  When Peter caught 153 fishes (John 21:11), he owed nothing as tithe offering because it is the tithe of the land, not the sea.  The Lord referred to this arrangement as:

a.   The tithe of the land (Lev 27:30)
b.   The tithe of the ground (Neh 10:37)
c.   The tithe of the field (Deu 14:22; 2Chr 31:4-6; Neh 12:44)

2.  Carpenters were not required to tithe 10% of their income.  According to the law of Moses, money was not accepted by God as a tithe offering.

3.  The Israelites had to give 10 % of their land products to the Levites because they did not have land as an inheritance.  They had the Lord as their inheritance. 

4.  Tithing was also given to the poor and needy (widows, orphans, newcomers to the land).  Tithing was part of God's welfare program. (Deu 12:29; Deu 14:28-29; Deu 26:12-13).  The poor did not give tithe, the poor received the tithe (Deu 14:28-29; Deu 26:12-13).  To ask the poor to tithe is exactly the opposite of what God established in His Word.

5.  The tithing for the poor had to be placed at the entrance of the cities in Israel where the Levites and the poor will come to collect it (Deu 14:28-29).  The Levites will then bring the tithes to the Temple in Jerusalem.

6.  The tithing offering for the Levite was only acceptable by God when it was presented to the Levites in the Temple of God in Jerusalem (Deu 12:5-6,11,18; Deu 14:23).   God repeated that every time he mentioned the law of tithing.

7.  God gave warnings to the people of not changing the law of tithing based on human reasoning, not to change it into something that made sense or was right in the eyes of the people, not to add or subtract from it, but to teach it exactly the way the commanded it (Dec 12:8,32).

8.  If the Jews lived too far from Jerusalem, they were allowed to turn their agricultural products (their tithe) into money (to eliminate traveling with produce and animals).  But once they arrived at Jerusalem, they had to turn the money into agricultural products before bringing the offering to God because God did not accept money as a tithing offering.  The reason was so that the tithing offering could be eaten before the Lord in his Temple. (Deu 14:24-26).

9.  Because they had to bring their tithes to the Temple in Jerusalem, God did not make it a burden to those living far away from Jerusalem, to travel every week or every month to bring the tithe.  Instead, he told the Israelites that they had to bring their tithes once every 3 years. That year was called the year of tithing (see Deu 14:28; Deu 26:12; Amos 4:4).

10.  If the people failed to bring in their tithes in the year of tithing, they were commanded by the law to bring them back the next year of tithing (3 years later) with 20 percent interest.  To be financially accurate, twenty percent interest every 3 years translates to 6.3 % interest per year or 0.12 % interest per week.  It is not 20% interest added the next Sunday after someone missed the offering. See Lev 27:31.

11.  The tithe or the 10th part of the agricultural products in Israel belonged to the Lord.  It really belonged to him because man put the seed on the ground, but it was the Lord that made it grow.  The Lord did most of the work.  That is why he considered it robbery not to give Him his part.  He had earned it.  The Lord in turn, gave what belonged to him to the Levite and the poor. (Lev 27:30; Num 18:24; Deu 26:12; Neh 13:5; Mal 3:8-10).   

12.  The tithe was defined as the tenth part (the last 10th, not the first 10th).  If a man had 39 sheep born in his farm, he owed 3 sheep as his tithes, not 4 (see Lev 27:32). 

13.  The Law of God required the Levites to give a tenth of the tithes that they received back unto the Lord. (Num 18:26).  This had to be the best of the tithe and the Levite had to give it to the priests that ministered in the Temple (for their consumption).

14.  People did not GIVE tithes to God, they PAID tithes to God because it belonged to God.  To not do it, was robbing God. Because the tithe did not belong to the people, they could not give it, they had to pay it.  We cannot give what does not belong to us.  In the NT we are called to GIVE 2Cor 9:7) because it really belongs to us (Acts 5:4).

Because the Temple is no longer in place in Jerusalem and there are no Levites running a priesthood anymore, all the laws connected with the Levitical priesthood and the Temple are no longer in effect.  That is why the Jews do not kill a lamb during Passover, no one offers animals for sin offerings, there are no more animal sacrifices.  Those laws are gone with the Temple and the priesthood.  The law of tithing is part of that group.  Rom 4:15; Rom 5:13 and 1 Jo 3:4 say that where there is no law, there is no transgression, and sin cannot be inputted where there is no law.  Because of that, since the Temple was destroyed and the Levitical priesthood disappeared, no one is robbing God of anything when people fail to bring their tithes (their agricultural products to the Levites in the Temple). 

Furthermore, Colossians 2:14 and Eph 2:15 reiterate that Jesus removed those laws when he was nailed to the cross.

Col 2:14  Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Eph 2:15  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments; for to make in himself of two one new man, so making peace. 

      The current law of tithing preached in today's protestant churches (requiring that 10% of our gross salaries belong to God and that we are robbing him if we do not do that) is not in the Bible.  That is a commandment of man.  God said that our heart is far from God and our worship is in vain when we teach as doctrines commandments of men. 

Shalom

Well said and explained.  At the time the scriptures were being written the temple was still standing and Paul and others stated that how we are no longer undert the law of Moses, from the dietary laws, observing days and tithing. Jesus was not born of the tribe of Aaron but of Judah, which Moses gave nothng about the alter and Jesus is our High Priest which means also a changing of the law, which is the New Covenant of our sins being forgiven being made alive together with Christ, recieving the filling of the Holy Spirit along with the gifts of the Spirit and promise of eternal life and waiting for Jesus to appear who has delierved us from the wrath to come.

Grace to all.

The first ten per cent of all we make in our house is God's. He honours His promises to us according to His word when we do that.

This is a spiritually discerned principle, and to tell people that they shouldn't tithe is wrong. Let the Lord influence every believer, rather than being a naysayer. He desires to be the Lord of ALL in our lives. Standing in the way of that in people's lives will bring penalty for false counsel.

: Lively Stone  Mon Aug 22, 2011 - 10:01:49
The first ten per cent of all we make in our house is God's. .

(Comment deleted - please don't say things like that.) Rom 4:4 and Acts 5:4 states our money is ours.  That is why we can GIVE it away.  Otherwise, we cant give what does not belong to us.
The tithe was defined as the tenth part (the last 10th, not the first 10th).  If a man had 39 sheep born in his farm, he owed 3 sheep as his tithes, not 4 (see Lev 27:32).

: Lively Stone  Mon Aug 22, 2011 - 10:01:49
He honours His promises to us according to His word when we do that.

God is faithful indeed.  There are promises made concerning our giving in 2Cor 9:6 but that has nothing to do with the man-made doctrine of modern tithing (10% salary).  The tithing law passed away with the Temple. That verse deals with giving as we purposed in our hearts.

: Lively Stone  Mon Aug 22, 2011 - 10:01:49

This is a spiritually discerned principle,

Do you mean it cannot be found in the NT?  yeah, I agree.

: Lively Stone  Mon Aug 22, 2011 - 10:01:49
...and to tell people that they shouldn't tithe is wrong. Let the Lord influence every believer, rather than being a naysayer. He desires to be the Lord of ALL in our lives. Standing in the way of that in people's lives will bring penalty for false counsel.

No one here said we should not give 10%.  No one here said that.  People need to know the difference between what is in the Bible and what is man-made doctrine.  God wants us in the NT to give AS WE PURPOSED IN OUR HEARTS.  Go preach that.

If people will give God the benefit of the doubt and trust him... instead of a man-made law, they will see God is far more powerful to influence his people to be giving generously than trying to inspire them with guilt and remorse.  Where the spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Shalom

I do not know who deleted my "socially-retarded" comment... But I am extremely thankful for that.

Man, I am grateful-grateful indeed.

I stand corrected... And blessed by your action.

Well noted.

I was wrong.  I stand corrected.  My sincere apologies.  I will go back to my barn to meditate on my donkeyness.

Peace

: Talking Donkey  Sat Aug 27, 2011 - 04:51:20
I do not know who deleted my "socially-retarded" comment... But I am extremely thankful for that.

Man, I am grateful-grateful indeed.

I stand corrected... And blessed by your action.

Well noted.

I was wrong.  I stand corrected.  My sincere apologies.  I will go back to my barn to meditate on my donkeyness.

Peace

I really appreciate you making sure I know what was deleted from your post. It does my heart good.

: Talking Donkey  Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 15:53:33

: Lively Stone  Mon Aug 22, 2011 - 10:01:49
The first ten per cent of all we make in our house is God's. .

(Comment deleted - please don't say things like that.) Rom 4:4 and Acts 5:4 states our money is ours.  That is why we can GIVE it away.  Otherwise, we cant give what does not belong to us.
The tithe was defined as the tenth part (the last 10th, not the first 10th).  If a man had 39 sheep born in his farm, he owed 3 sheep as his tithes, not 4 (see Lev 27:32).

90% is ours. We give out of that.

God is faithful indeed.  There are promises made concerning our giving in 2Cor 9:6 but that has nothing to do with the man-made doctrine of modern tithing (10% salary).  The tithing law passed away with the Temple. That verse deals with giving as we purposed in our hearts.

There is nothing man-made about tithing. It was never man's idea, because we are basically greedy and self-serving. The love of money is the root of all kinds of evil.

We are to give as God leads, but tithing isn't giving. We give a gift and we can be as liberal as we choose, but we pay a tithe.

Do you mean it cannot be found in the NT?  yeah, I agree.

Jesus approved of it and said it was good. As He approved of it, we know it is not rescinded, and neither are the distinct promises of God concerning it. If there is a promise of God connected to anything, we can surely hold Him to it.

No one here said we should not give 10%.  No one here said that.  People need to know the difference between what is in the Bible and what is man-made doctrine.  God wants us in the NT to give AS WE PURPOSED IN OUR HEARTS.  Go preach that.

Giving is separate from the tithe. We are to do that, too.

If people will give God the benefit of the doubt and trust him... instead of a man-made law, they will see God is far more powerful to influence his people to be giving generously than trying to inspire them with guilt and remorse.  Where the spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

It is the mark of absolute trust, as God says, to tithe.

: Lively Stone  Sat Aug 27, 2011 - 11:46:26

: Talking Donkey  Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 15:53:33

: Lively Stone  Mon Aug 22, 2011 - 10:01:49
The first ten per cent of all we make in our house is God's. .

(Comment deleted - please don't say things like that.) Rom 4:4 and Acts 5:4 states our money is ours.  That is why we can GIVE it away.  Otherwise, we cant give what does not belong to us.
The tithe was defined as the tenth part (the last 10th, not the first 10th).  If a man had 39 sheep born in his farm, he owed 3 sheep as his tithes, not 4 (see Lev 27:32).

90% is ours. We give out of that.

God is faithful indeed.  There are promises made concerning our giving in 2Cor 9:6 but that has nothing to do with the man-made doctrine of modern tithing (10% salary).  The tithing law passed away with the Temple. That verse deals with giving as we purposed in our hearts.

There is nothing man-made about tithing. It was never man's idea, because we are basically greedy and self-serving. The love of money is the root of all kinds of evil.

We are to give as God leads, but tithing isn't giving. We give a gift and we can be as liberal as we choose, but we pay a tithe.

Do you mean it cannot be found in the NT?  yeah, I agree.

Jesus approved of it and said it was good. As He approved of it, we know it is not rescinded, and neither are the distinct promises of God concerning it. If there is a promise of God connected to anything, we can surely hold Him to it.

No one here said we should not give 10%.  No one here said that.  People need to know the difference between what is in the Bible and what is man-made doctrine.  God wants us in the NT to give AS WE PURPOSED IN OUR HEARTS.  Go preach that.

Giving is separate from the tithe. We are to do that, too.

If people will give God the benefit of the doubt and trust him... instead of a man-made law, they will see God is far more powerful to influence his people to be giving generously than trying to inspire them with guilt and remorse.  Where the spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

It is the mark of absolute trust, as God says, to tithe.

Where does it say we are commanded to tithe a tithe that is not for the levites or to be delivered to the temple in Jesuralem?

Where is that command?  God stated in Deu 12:8,32 that we should not preach a different tithing than what was delivered to Moses.

Peace

I showed you the scriptures that say that 100% of our money is ours.  What you do with it, is up to you.

God is into givers, not into payers of debt.

The law ruins the offering if we have to do it, instead of doing it because we love to do it.

Peace

Many Christians have not learned the concept of Divine Ownership nor that of Dominion. As a result, they have a distorted view of the purpose of their finances. Here is an explanation of these two important principles.

THE PRINCIPLE OF DOMINION

GENESIS 1:26
Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

GENESIS 1:27
So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

GENESIS 1:28
Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living t hing that moves on the earth."


The word, 'dominion' comes from the Hebrew word, 'radah' , meaning, 'to rule over, to reign over that which is owned by God'.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance:  radah, raw-daw'; a prim. root; to tread down, i.e. subjugate; spec. to crumble off:-(come to, make to) have dominion, prevail against, reign, (bear, make to) rule, (-r, over), take. In other words, God has given us the ability and the command to rule and reign over his property and to become faithful stewards.

The Law of Tithing

God has given mankind the exclusive right or dominion to rule over His property and world. We have not only been given the right of dominion, but we are also "free moral agents," able to make our own decisions and to determine our own actions. Therefore, man can bless God with his actions or curse God with his actions. Obedience blesses God, while disobedience is a reproach unto God . Tithing blesses, while not tithing is obviously a reproach.


DIVINE OWNERSHIP

If this principle could finally be understood in the hearts of all Christians, then the problems associated with giving and tithing would be over.

GOD OWNS EVERYTHING!

PSALMS 24:1
The earth is the Lord's, and all its fullness, The world and those who dwell therein .

PSALMS 50:10
For every beast of the forest is Mine, And the cattle on a thousand hills.

PSALMS 50:11
I know all the birds of the mountains, And the wild beasts of the field are Mine .

HAGGAI 2:8
'The silver is Mine, and the gold is Mine,' says the Lord of hosts.

EZEKIEL 18:4
"Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine; the soul who sins shall die.

ROMANS 14:8
For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.

1 CORINTHIANS 6:20
For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's.

1 CORINTHIANS 10:26
For 'The earth is the Lord's, and all its fullness .'

God owns everything and we are merely stewards over His possessions!

Based upon the above scriptures and many, many others, it is clear that the entire earth, world, gold, silver, animals, and all people are God's! The principle of divine ownership teaches us that there is nothing that does not belong to God Himself! Whereas, the principle of dominion teaches us that mankind has been given stewardship over God's property.

This is a very timely message and teaching for the Body of Christ today! Especially living in a world of intense greed, selfishness and hedonism.

So many Christians today fail to realize that God has asked and even commanded them to give and to tithe! It is a very disappointing fact that 80% of the finances of any church is given by only 20% of the people.

Christian maturity is not based upon the concept of "God, what can You give me?" Rather, it is an attitude which expresses gratitude to God and a thank You, Lord, for what You have done for me, now what can I do for You in return? Mature and even new, well-founded Christians see the need and fill it. They see their responsibility and respond to it.


One of the greatest injustices that many pastors have done to their people is to insist that God demands one-tenth of our income and one-seventh of our week. The implication is that the other nine-tenths of our income and the other six days of the week are ours to do as we please. The real truth is that everything belongs to God! Not only the tithe, but everything else: 100% belongs to Him. We are simply stewards being obedient to our Heavenly Master---Jesus Christ, our LORD and Saviour. The tithe is simply the basic starting point in our Christian financial commitment.

So, are we robbing Gd when we do not return everything to him?  is that the way to prove there is a law of 10%?

There is no law demanding to give to God 10% of our salary... No where in the Bible.

Is Acts 5:4 a lie?  No it isn't.  Neither is Rom 4:4 a lie.

Peace

: Talking Donkey  Sat Aug 27, 2011 - 18:55:13
So, are we robbing Gd when we do not return everything to him?  is that the way to prove there is a law of 10%?

There is no law demanding to give to God 10% of our salary... No where in the Bible.

Is Acts 5:4 a lie?  No it isn't.  Neither is Rom 4:4 a lie.

Peace

God says we rob Him when we withhold from Him what is His.

: 'T Donk'You are putting our ability to reason and judge, above the word of God.

If you believe the NT, you will believe it was the HS quoting the OT.

It is bad when we think of ourselves as better than God.  God asked abraham to kill his son, that is in the NT.  Deal with it.

Peace

The only people who make a huge issue of tithing are those that reject it. Those who tithe are happy doing so, do not complain, and receive the promised blessings from God for doing so.

: Lively Stone  Sat Aug 27, 2011 - 19:05:48

: Talking Donkey  Sat Aug 27, 2011 - 18:55:13
So, are we robbing Gd when we do not return everything to him?  is that the way to prove there is a law of 10%?

There is no law demanding to give to God 10% of our salary... No where in the Bible.

Is Acts 5:4 a lie?  No it isn't.  Neither is Rom 4:4 a lie.

Peace

God says we rob Him when we withhold from Him what is His.

: 'T Donk'You are putting our ability to reason and judge, above the word of God.

If you believe the NT, you will believe it was the HS quoting the OT.

It is bad when we think of ourselves as better than God.  God asked abraham to kill his son, that is in the NT.  Deal with it.

Peace

The only people who make a huge issue of tithing are those that reject it. Those who tithe are happy doing so, do not complain, and receive the promised blessings from God for doing so.

God said the Israelites were robbing him (not anyone on the Church), when they did not give God 10% of the produce of the land, because it was God that made the plants grow and bear fruit, it was God the one that did most of the work.  That is why it is written concerning his blessing....

Mal 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.

See?

I go to a Church with 550 families.  I was the treasurer of that Church for 3 years.  The ones that gave the most were the ones preaching against tithing !!!!  Tithers could not compete with them.

So, stop praising yourself and stop assuming the ones preaching against tithinng give less than you, because one day (who knows?) you might find out, it is not true.   No one is robbing God of anything that is established by a man made command.  10% of people's salary?  Where is that?

Preach Deu 12:8,32 ... preach that, tell people not to distort or change the old tithing law to something that seems good in their eyes... tell them the tithe is only acceptable by God in the Temple in Jerusalem.  Tell them the truth.

DEU 12:5  But unto the place which the LORD your God shall choose out of all your tribes to put his name there, even unto his habitation shall ye seek, and thither thou shalt come:
6  And thither ye shall bring your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes, and heave offerings of your hand, and your vows, and your freewill offerings, and the firstlings of your herds and of your flocks:
7  And there ye shall eat before the LORD your God, and ye shall rejoice in all that ye put your hand unto, ye and your households, wherein the LORD thy God hath blessed thee.
8  Ye shall not do after all the things that we do here this day, every man whatsoever is right in his own eyes.
9  For ye are not as yet come to the rest and to the inheritance, which the LORD your God giveth you.
10  But when ye go over Jordan, and dwell in the land which the LORD your God giveth you to inherit, and when he giveth you rest from all your enemies round about, so that ye dwell in safety;
11  Then there shall be a place which the LORD your God shall choose to cause his name to dwell there; thither shall ye bring all that I command you; your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, your tithes, and the heave offering of your hand, and all your choice vows which ye vow unto the LORD:
12  And ye shall rejoice before the LORD your God, ye, and your sons, and your daughters, and your menservants, and your maidservants, and the Levite that is within your gates; forasmuch as he hath no part nor inheritance with you.
13 Take heed to thyself that thou offer not thy burnt offerings in every place that thou seest:
14  But in the place which the LORD shall choose in one of thy tribes, there thou shalt offer thy burnt offerings, and there thou shalt do all that I command thee.
15  Notwithstanding thou mayest kill and eat flesh in all thy gates, whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, according to the blessing of the LORD thy God which he hath given thee: the unclean and the clean may eat thereof, as of the roebuck, and as of the hart.
16  Only ye shall not eat the blood; ye shall pour it upon the earth as water.
17  Thou mayest not eat within thy gates the tithe of thy corn, or of thy wine, or of thy oil, or the firstlings of thy herds or of thy flock, nor any of thy vows which thou vowest, nor thy freewill offerings, or heave offering of thine hand:
18  But thou must eat them before the LORD thy God in the place which the LORD thy God shall choose, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, and thy manservant, and thy maidservant, and the Levite that is within thy gates: and thou shalt rejoice before the LORD thy God in all that thou puttest thine hands unto.
19  Take heed to thyself that thou forsake not the Levite as long as thou livest upon the earth.
20  When the LORD thy God shall enlarge thy border, as he hath promised thee, and thou shalt say, I will eat flesh, because thy soul longeth to eat flesh; thou mayest eat flesh, whatsoever thy soul lusteth after.
21  If the place which the LORD thy God hath chosen to put his name there be too far from thee, then thou shalt kill of thy herd and of thy flock, which the LORD hath given thee, as I have commanded thee, and thou shalt eat in thy gates whatsoever thy soul lusteth after.
22  Even as the roebuck and the hart is eaten, so thou shalt eat them: the unclean and the clean shall eat of them alike.
23  Only be sure that thou eat not the blood: for the blood is the life; and thou mayest not eat the life with the flesh.
24  Thou shalt not eat it; thou shalt pour it upon the earth as water.
25  Thou shalt not eat it; that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, when thou shalt do that which is right in the sight of the LORD.
26  Only thy holy things which thou hast, and thy vows, thou shalt take, and go unto the place which the LORD shall choose:
27  And thou shalt offer thy burnt offerings, the flesh and the blood, upon the altar of the LORD thy God: and the blood of thy sacrifices shall be poured out upon the altar of the LORD thy God, and thou shalt eat the flesh.
28  Observe and hear all these words which I command thee, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee for ever, when thou doest that which is good and right in the sight of the LORD thy God.
29  When the LORD thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest to possess them, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their land;
30  Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.
31  Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.
32  What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

Go and preach that.

Peace

I go to a Church with 550 families.  I was the treasurer of that Church for 3 years.  The ones that gave the most were the ones preaching against tithing !!!!  Tithers could not compete with them.

How very sad.

It isn't that way in good, thriving churches where most are tithers. Because we believe in the promises of God concerning the tithe, we benefit by it and our giving is with 'hilarity'. A plain giver could not compete, although we do not invite competition. Tithing is a spiritually discerned practice and not something to demand.

: Lively Stone  Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 18:43:32

I go to a Church with 550 families.  I was the treasurer of that Church for 3 years.  The ones that gave the most were the ones preaching against tithing !!!!  Tithers could not compete with them.

Tithing is a spiritually discerned practice and not something to demand.

Well, we agree on that.  God is not demanding 10% of anyone.  And since he is not demanding it, it is not a sin for those not giving 10% of their salary as the man-made ordnance calls for.  We finally agree.

Peace

: Talking Donkey  Mon Aug 29, 2011 - 11:13:20

: Lively Stone  Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 18:43:32

I go to a Church with 550 families.  I was the treasurer of that Church for 3 years.  The ones that gave the most were the ones preaching against tithing !!!!  Tithers could not compete with them.

Tithing is a spiritually discerned practice and not something to demand.

Well, we agree on that.  God is not demanding 10% of anyone.  And since he is not demanding it, it is not a sin for those not giving 10% of their salary as the man-made ordnance calls for.  We finally agree.

Peace

I believe it is a sin only in those who refuse to do what God is telling them to do. Those who are ignorant of tithing cannot be held accountable for it, and they are included with the disobedient in not receiving the special promises of God concerning the tithe.

The tithing law went away with the temple. God was very clear, the tithing is only acceptable in the temple.  so, that law is no more.  Where there is no law, there is no transgression.

If people are not receiving a blessing, then they are accountable, for God is still making his blessings contingent upon the practice,... So, make up our mind.  If it is a law that is still in effect today, then it is a sin not to do it, and we are accountable.  Which is it?  Make up your mind.

There is only one answer.  In the NT, God wants us to Give (not pay) as we purpose in our hearts.  That is the only money God sees as welcome, the only kind we give with cheerful heart.  Tithings are not a gift, they are a payment, like my mortgage.  The bank never sends me a letter back praising my faithfulness in making the payments because payments have nothing to do with the cheerfulness of the heart.  They are an obligation.  God is not interested in that kind of offering.

Besides, tithing speaks about the righteousness of man.  In the NT, we are all about the righteousness of Jesus Christ, and none of ours.  Actually, our righteousness is manure, dung... Phil 3:4-9.  Our righteousness is the righteousness of Jesus imputed on us by faith.  The only one worth anything, or worth talking about.

Peace

: Talking Donkey  Mon Aug 29, 2011 - 18:59:52
The tithing law went away with the temple. God was very clear, the tithing is only acceptable in the temple.  so, that law is no more.  Where there is no law, there is no transgression.

If people are not receiving a blessing, then they are accountable, for God is still making his blessings contingent upon the practice,... So, make up our mind.  If it is a law that is still in effect today, then it is a sin not to do it, and we are accountable.  Which is it?  Make up your mind.

There is only one answer.  In the NT, God wants us to Give (not pay) as we purpose in our hearts.  That is the only money God sees as welcome, the only kind we give with cheerful heart.  Tithings are not a gift, they are a payment, like my mortgage.  The bank never sends me a letter back praising my faithfulness in making the payments because payments have nothing to do with the cheerfulness of the heart.  Tere are an obligation.  God is not interested in that kind of offering.

Besides, tithing speaks about the righteousness of man.  In the NT, we are all about the righteousness of Jesus Christ, and none of ours.  Actually, our righteousness is manure, dung... Phil 3:4-9.  Our righteousness is the righteousness of Jesus imputed on us by faith.  The only one worth anything, or worth talking about.

Peace

Tithing is not Mosaic law---it came before Mosaic Law. Abraham tithed. Jacob tithed. It is beyond the Law.

Tithing doesn't speak of our righteousness, but rather speaks of our complete trust in the Father, Jehovah Jireh, from whose hand we receive EVERYTHING, and who owns EVERYTHING.

: Lively Stone  Mon Aug 29, 2011 - 21:28:32
Tithing is not Mosaic law---it came before Mosaic Law. Abraham tithed. Jacob tithed. It is beyond the Law.

Tithing doesn't speak of our righteousness, but rather speaks of our complete trust in the Father, Jehovah Jireh, from whose hand we receive EVERYTHING, and who owns EVERYTHING.

Please show me scripture which tells us that Jacob tithed.  He made a vow WITH CONDITIONS, but I find no scripture showing that he ever honored that vow.

Please show scripture where Abram ever tithed anything other than war spoils.  Please show me scripture to show that Abraham tithed more than one time.

Hebrews 7:7 (KJV)  "And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.

: Lively Stone  Mon Aug 29, 2011 - 21:28:32

: Talking Donkey  Mon Aug 29, 2011 - 18:59:52
The tithing law went away with the temple. God was very clear, the tithing is only acceptable in the temple.  so, that law is no more.  Where there is no law, there is no transgression.

If people are not receiving a blessing, then they are accountable, for God is still making his blessings contingent upon the practice,... So, make up our mind.  If it is a law that is still in effect today, then it is a sin not to do it, and we are accountable.  Which is it?  Make up your mind.

There is only one answer.  In the NT, God wants us to Give (not pay) as we purpose in our hearts.  That is the only money God sees as welcome, the only kind we give with cheerful heart.  Tithings are not a gift, they are a payment, like my mortgage.  The bank never sends me a letter back praising my faithfulness in making the payments because payments have nothing to do with the cheerfulness of the heart.  Tere are an obligation.  God is not interested in that kind of offering.

Besides, tithing speaks about the righteousness of man.  In the NT, we are all about the righteousness of Jesus Christ, and none of ours.  Actually, our righteousness is manure, dung... Phil 3:4-9.  Our righteousness is the righteousness of Jesus imputed on us by faith.  The only one worth anything, or worth talking about.

Peace

Tithing is not Mosaic law---it came before Mosaic Law. Abraham tithed. Jacob tithed. It is beyond the Law.

Tithing doesn't speak of our righteousness, but rather speaks of our complete trust in the Father, Jehovah Jireh, from whose hand we receive EVERYTHING, and who owns EVERYTHING.

The Greek word for that is boloney (bologna).

There was no law of tithing before Moses.  

Abraham tithed the spoils of war, not his salary.  He gave 10% to Melchizedeck and 90% back to the people, he kept nothing of the spoils of war for himself.  Do you tithe like that?  Do you keep nothing for yourself?  Abraham gave in accordance to NT way of doing business, he gave as he purposed in his heart.  He did not go around preaching that to be under a blessing, people needed to be like him and give 10%.  Abraham never preached a tithing law like you are doing.

Jabot made a conditional vow...  And the reason why he made a vow was because there was no law of tithing back then.

Jesus recommended us to avoid making vows...

And tithing is counted for sure as our own righteousness, if it is not our righteousness, who's is it?

I preached tithing for many years.... Been there, boasted about that...already.

The practice of tithing is before the law, Yes.  But the law of tithing, started with Moses and was finished at the cross and went away with the destruction of the temple.  I asked an orthodox Jew if he tithed and he told me:  "I can't, there is no temple.". Now, that's a man that knows the word well.

Peace

There is always an excuse in those who reject the tithe. I had them all at one time, but the difference was that I wanted to know what God thought about it, so I prayed and prayed and asked God to show me the truth and then I set about to wait on His answer. I didn't argue my points...I waited on God because I wanted to please Him rather than myself.

He has shown me that tithing is for everyone and that it has not been rescinded, for He has impressed upon His people by His Spirit since Abraham to tithe a tenth. It matters not whether it was spoils from battle or not. It is based on the increase.

He is blessed by our complete trust in Him and by our showing it by tithing. It isn't easy sometimes! But His promises are dependable and He makes a way where there seems to be no way---because it is all His in the first place. He is a most generous God for allowing us 90% of our income to do with as we wish.

Closed fists over our dollars and possessions is not trusting God as Provider.

: Talking Donkey  Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 15:31:06

: Lively Stone  Mon Aug 29, 2011 - 21:28:32

: Talking Donkey  Mon Aug 29, 2011 - 18:59:52
The tithing law went away with the temple. God was very clear, the tithing is only acceptable in the temple.  so, that law is no more.  Where there is no law, there is no transgression.

If people are not receiving a blessing, then they are accountable, for God is still making his blessings contingent upon the practice,... So, make up our mind.  If it is a law that is still in effect today, then it is a sin not to do it, and we are accountable.  Which is it?  Make up your mind.

There is only one answer.  In the NT, God wants us to Give (not pay) as we purpose in our hearts.  That is the only money God sees as welcome, the only kind we give with cheerful heart.  Tithings are not a gift, they are a payment, like my mortgage.  The bank never sends me a letter back praising my faithfulness in making the payments because payments have nothing to do with the cheerfulness of the heart.  Tere are an obligation.  God is not interested in that kind of offering.

Besides, tithing speaks about the righteousness of man.  In the NT, we are all about the righteousness of Jesus Christ, and none of ours.  Actually, our righteousness is manure, dung... Phil 3:4-9.  Our righteousness is the righteousness of Jesus imputed on us by faith.  The only one worth anything, or worth talking about.

Peace

Tithing is not Mosaic law---it came before Mosaic Law. Abraham tithed. Jacob tithed. It is beyond the Law.

Tithing doesn't speak of our righteousness, but rather speaks of our complete trust in the Father, Jehovah Jireh, from whose hand we receive EVERYTHING, and who owns EVERYTHING.

The Greek word for that is boloney (bologna).

There was no law of tithing before Moses.  

Tithing was a practice before Moses.

Those who make the loudest noise against tithing aren't trusting Him fully. Tithing is the ONE thing that God asks us to test Him in. Test Him and find Him faithful!

THE FIRST TITHE
Leviticus 27:30-33 defines this tithe as a tenth of crops and animals in herds and flocks.
Numbers 18 gives the ordinances, or instructions, for this tithe, and commands this tithe be taken to the Levites.
Purpose of this tithe:  to support the Levitical Priesthood.

SECOND TITHE
Deuteronomy 14:22-27: aka The Festival Tithe - a tenth of crops, plus add to that the firstborn animals, and take for the yearly feast.
Purpose of this tithe:  "that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always

Malachi 3:7-12

Giving to God a Tenth Part
7 "From the days of your fathers you have turned aside from My Laws and have not obeyed them. Return to Me, and I will return to you,

Listen, if you can't find Scriptures to back up your doctrine, please, do not tell me that "God told you specifically... About the doctrine to be ok."  I go with ISA 8:20 To the law and the testimony, if they speak not according to this word there is no light in them.  No one is ever going to get my attention by telling me: "this doctrine is true because God told me."

Let me say it again, stop assuming that those that preach the truth about the super-seeded law of tithing, that they give less than you.  Stop arguing doctrine by attacking the character of those of different opinion.  Who knows... They might be better than you in the area of giving.

And one day we all know.... I am so looking forward for that day.

Peace

: Talking Donkey  Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 15:52:22
Listen, if you can't find Scriptures to back up your doctrine, please, do not tell me that "God told you specifically... About the doctrine to be ok."  I go with ISA 8:20 To the law and the testimony, if they speak not according to this word there is no light in them.  No one is ever going to get my attention by telling me: "this doctrine is true because God told me."

Let me say it again, stop assuming that those that preach the truth about the super-seeded law of tithing, that they give less than you.  Stop arguing doctrine by attacking the character of those of different opinion.  Who knows... They might be better than you in the area of giving.

And one day we all know.... I am so looking forward for that day.

Peace

Are you in competition, here? Who said anything about the amount anyone gives or tithes? How shallow!

You cannot outgive God.

<<<<Tithing was a practice before Moses.>>>>

Show me the verse that says it was a law before Moses.

<<<<<Tithing is the ONE thing that God asks us to test Him in. Test Him and find Him faithful!
[/quote]

God did not ask any Christian in the NT to test him on that, he told the farmers in Israel to test them on that.  Big difference.

God told us in the NT to give as we purposed in our hearts, not out of necessity !!! Get it?  Do not give because you think have to, do not give because you believe it is needed to meet certain standard, do not give out of necessity.

Peace

: Talking Donkey  Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 15:59:19
<<<<Tithing was a practice before Moses.>>>>

Show me the verse that says it was a law before Moses.

<<<<<Tithing is the ONE thing that God asks us to test Him in. Test Him and find Him faithful!


God did not ask any Christian in the NT to test him on that, he told the farmers in Israel to test them on that.  Big difference.

God told us in the NT to give as we purposed in our hearts, not out of necessity !!! Get it?  Do not give because you think have to, do not give because you believe it is needed to meet certain standard, do not give out of necessity.

Peace

The Bible is the Bible, man. He asks us all to test Him in any promise He has ever made for none of them have gone out of date. Tithing is not a law for us unless you choose to make it one of many legalistic laws that many Christians make.

We pay the tithe because we trust God with EVERYTHING, and His guarantees surrounding the practice are wonderful! We give offerings as we purpose in our hearts.

In the New Testament we are driven by love generated on the inside of us by the Holy Spirit.

The Old Testament was driving people to do the right thing through the fear of the law and the sentence.

Wanna make Jesus your Lord?  Love him.

Wanna make him our enemy?  Go around taking his place by teaching as doctrines commandments of men.  Then it will be fulfilled, our hearts will be far from him and our worship will be in vain.

If the law could make us perfect (Heb 10:1) we would not need a NT.  No one can trigger a single miracle by keeping the law.  Much less, by keeping man-made laws.

Peace

: Lively Stone  Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 15:50:32
Malachi 3:7-12

Giving to God a Tenth Part
7 "From the days of your fathers you have turned aside from My Laws and have not obeyed them.....

Did you actually read verse 7 above?  Pastor's seldom start with verse 7 because it totally destroys their tithing arguments.

Now, do you know exactly which laws the Israelites had turned aside from and not obeyed?  Try Leviticus 27:30-33 and Numbers 18, which God commands His tithe be taken to the Levites.

You see, if you are going to quote Malachi 3:7, what you are quoting is saying that if you don't follow God's laws, you will be robbing Him.  Do YOU follow God's laws and tithe from crops and animals raised on the Holy land?  Do YOU follow God's law and take the tithe to the Levites?  If you take the tithe to other than a Levite, per Malachi 3:7-10 YOU are robbing God.

Wanna truly worship God? Tithe!

The custom of tithing is a timeless practice of worship. The first recorded instance of tithing in the Bible occurs in Genesis 14:14-20. This passage shows that even before any law was written, tithing was the custom.

The practice of giving a tenth of income or property was a part of the Mosaic law (Lev 27: 20). Jacob also, long before the law of Moses, promised that he would give to the Lord a tenth of all he received (Genesis 28:22). The law you refer to comes from the Law of Moses that prescribed tithing in detailed ways that extended in practices observed in Israel's history.

I want you to be assured that God does not make a legal demand declaring that if we don't tithe we will not go to heaven. Salvation's promise transcends legalistic demands. But there is a principle of tithing and giving which God has wrapped into the very structure of creation. When the redeemed learn to let go, to give, to release, room is made for life and abundance to flow into their lives according to God's order.

But as you said, some still ask: "Isn't tithing only in the OT?" or "Isn't it part of the law"? This doubt makes tithing a part of the law and therefore without meaning to the NT believers. Some even say to teach tithing will deprive the believer of liberty and move him or her "into law without grace"

But the truth of the tithe is not only in the OT. The NT shows tithing as being as appropriate today as for believers during all of history. God's word also reveals that all His blessings and covenants are of grace, not law.

Jesus addressed the issue of tithing:
"Woe to you, scribes and pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cumin, and have neglected the wealthier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith.These you ought have done, without leaving the others undone" (Matt23:23,..Luke 11;42)

Jesus was dealing with the Pharisee, those who attended to the letter of the law but neglected its spiritual demands. In observing that they tithes, Jesus was challenging their supposition that obedience to a "ritual" released them from the larger reality of obedience to love's responsibility.

Tithing as a NT practice is even further verified in the book of Romans. We are specifically admonished to walk "in the steps of faith which our father Abraham" walked (Romans 4:12). In tracing the footsteps of Abraham, we find "and he gave him (Melchizedek) a tithe of all" (Genesis 14:20). Abraham reveals that tithing was established in the Scriptures before the Law of Moses. It precedes and transcends the Mosaic code as a principle built into the fabric of the human order of things.

So, tithing may have begin in the OT, but its spirit, truth and practice continue today

As to budgeting: Look at your budget as it stands today given your situation. After all expenses and debt obligations, is there anything left. Start tithing on what is left and as God allows you to climb out of your obligations then begin to increase. Re-evaluate regularly.

For instance if you have an income of $2000 a month and after you paid your bills have $100 left, tithe on the $100 to start. Then re-evaluate and increase it accordingly until your situation changes.

As to stewardship: We are called to be faithful steward of all our possessions. So tithing and stewardship are not separate issues. We recognize that all we have is from God, including our money

Romans 14:12
1 Corinthians 9: 3-14, 16:1-3
2 Corinthians 8-9

: Lively Stone  Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 16:04:04
Tithing is not a law for us unless you choose to make it one of many legalistic laws that many Christians make.

They WHY did you quote from Malachi 3 which is where God is referring TO HIS LAWS? 

: garyarnold  Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 16:10:20

: Lively Stone  Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 15:50:32
Malachi 3:7-12

Giving to God a Tenth Part
7 "From the days of your fathers you have turned aside from My Laws and have not obeyed them.....

Did you actually read verse 7 above?  Pastor's seldom start with verse 7 because it totally destroys their tithing arguments.

Now, do you know exactly which laws the Israelites had turned aside from and not obeyed?  Try Leviticus 27:30-33 and Numbers 18, which God commands His tithe be taken to the Levites.

You see, if you are going to quote Malachi 3:7, what you are quoting is saying that if you don't follow God's laws, you will be robbing Him.  Do YOU follow God's laws and tithe from crops and animals raised on the Holy land?  Do YOU follow God's law and take the tithe to the Levites?  If you take the tithe to other than a Levite, per Malachi 3:7-10 YOU are robbing God.

We were living under a curse for not tithing, under a great deal of debt and trouble. That trouble was certainly not the blessing of God! Within a few months of beginning to tithe, we were completely out of debt. God honoured us and caused our dollars to go further than they would have had we not honoured Him first with our finances.

God's word is gold!

: garyarnold  Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 16:15:07

: Lively Stone  Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 16:04:04
Tithing is not a law for us unless you choose to make it one of many legalistic laws that many Christians make.

They WHY did you quote from Malachi 3 which is where God is referring TO HIS LAWS? 

Malachi 3 contains the promises for us!

: Lively Stone  Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 16:12:45

The custom of tithing is a timeless practice of worship.

ONE example of tithing in the Bible, during a period of thousands of years, and you say that one example establishes the custom of tithing as a timeless practice of worship.  WOW!  What logic!  ONE EXAMPLE!

: Lively Stone  Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 16:17:08
Malachi 3 contains the promises for us!

You mean you actually believe that Malachi 3 contains the promises for us even though we aren't following God's laws?  The promise was for those WHO FOLLOWED GOD'S LAWS.  Read Malachi 3:7.

: garyarnold  Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 16:18:46

: Lively Stone  Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 16:12:45

The custom of tithing is a timeless practice of worship.

ONE example of tithing in the Bible, during a period of thousands of years, and you say that one example establishes the custom of tithing as a timeless practice of worship.  WOW!  What logic!  ONE EXAMPLE!

We worship with our finances as we do with our entire lives. Not one thing should we withhold. I praise God that He has gently encouraged and led us to comply with the tithe. It has been one of the most blessed learning experiences of our lives.

: Lively Stone  Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 16:22:02
We worship with our finances as we do with our entire lives. Not one thing should we withhold. I praise God that He has gently encouraged and led us to comply with the tithe. It has been one of the most blessed learning experiences of our lives.

I worship with my finances, too, but I don't tithe.  I give as the Spirit leads me to give.

You aren't "complying" with the tithe at all.  You have changed God's definition for His tithe, and change where you take it.  You are complying with nothing but man's false teachings.  Otherwise, you would be able to give scripture to show that tithing is on one's income and should be taken to the church.

: garyarnold  Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 15:44:41
THE FIRST TITHE
Leviticus 27:30-33 defines this tithe as a tenth of crops and animals in herds and flocks.
Numbers 18 gives the ordinances, or instructions, for this tithe, and commands this tithe be taken to the Levites.
Purpose of this tithe:  to support the Levitical Priesthood.

SECOND TITHE
Deuteronomy 14:22-27: aka The Festival Tithe - a tenth of crops, plus add to that the firstborn animals, and take for the yearly feast.
Purpose of this tithe:  "that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always

: garyarnold  Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 16:26:20

: Lively Stone  Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 16:22:02
We worship with our finances as we do with our entire lives. Not one thing should we withhold. I praise God that He has gently encouraged and led us to comply with the tithe. It has been one of the most blessed learning experiences of our lives.

I worship with my finances, too, but I don't tithe.  I give as the Spirit leads me to give.

You aren't "complying" with the tithe at all.  You have changed God's definition for His tithe, and change where you take it.  You are complying with nothing but man's false teachings.  Otherwise, you would be able to give scripture to show that tithing is on one's income and should be taken to the church.

I am happy to have heard from God on this one and am happy to obey Him. Everything belongs to Him, and He is our provider. When and if things get rough, I have His promises to rely on. He is already rebuking the devourer for our sake and He makes sure that we have more than enough. No worries here.

Blessings.

: Lively Stone  Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 16:15:19

: garyarnold  Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 16:10:20

: Lively Stone  Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 15:50:32
Malachi 3:7-12

Giving to God a Tenth Part
7 "From the days of your fathers you have turned aside from My Laws and have not obeyed them.....

Did you actually read verse 7 above?  Pastor's seldom start with verse 7 because it totally destroys their tithing arguments.

Now, do you know exactly which laws the Israelites had turned aside from and not obeyed?  Try Leviticus 27:30-33 and Numbers 18, which God commands His tithe be taken to the Levites.

You see, if you are going to quote Malachi 3:7, what you are quoting is saying that if you don't follow God's laws, you will be robbing Him.  Do YOU follow God's laws and tithe from crops and animals raised on the Holy land?  Do YOU follow God's law and take the tithe to the Levites?  If you take the tithe to other than a Levite, per Malachi 3:7-10 YOU are robbing God.

We were living under a curse for not tithing, under a great deal of debt and trouble. That trouble was certainly not the blessing of God! Within a few months of beginning to tithe, we were completely out of debt. God honoured us and caused our dollars to go further than they would have had we not honoured Him first with our finances.

God's word is gold!

According to scriptures, you are not tithing unless it is food to be consumed by the Levitical priesthood. Also, the year of the tithe where you feed the father less, widows and the preists.

Paul is very clear, that those that preach the gospel live of the gospel. He didn't say the tithe.  ::giggle::  

1Cr 9:9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen

1Cr 9:10   Or saith he [it] altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, [this] is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

1Cr 9:10   Or saith he [it] altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, [this] is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

1Cr 9:12   If others be partakers of [this] power over you, [are] not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.  

1Cr 9:13   Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live [of the things] of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?

1Cr 9:14   Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.  

1Cr 9:15   But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for [it were] better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.  

Nothing about tithing there and he is talking about money.

1Ti 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer [is] worthy of his reward.

Which confirms what Jesus taught as well

Luk 10:7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.

Here is robbering in the NT.

2Cr 11:8 I robbed other churches, taking wages [of them], to do you service.

2Cr 11:9   And when I was present with you, and wanted, I was chargeable to no man: for that which was lacking to me the brethren which came from Macedonia supplied: and in all [things] I have kept myself from being burdensome unto you, and [so] will I keep [myself].  

2Cr 12:14 Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours, but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children.

and

1Th 2:6 Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor [yet] of others, when we might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ.

Paul and those he sent was not burdesome to the church but preached the gospel with power and signs following.

Grace to all.

: NTPREACHER4U  Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 16:51:02

: Lively Stone  Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 16:15:19

: garyarnold  Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 16:10:20

: Lively Stone  Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 15:50:32
Malachi 3:7-12

Giving to God a Tenth Part
7 "From the days of your fathers you have turned aside from My Laws and have not obeyed them.....

Did you actually read verse 7 above?  Pastor's seldom start with verse 7 because it totally destroys their tithing arguments.

Now, do you know exactly which laws the Israelites had turned aside from and not obeyed?  Try Leviticus 27:30-33 and Numbers 18, which God commands His tithe be taken to the Levites.

You see, if you are going to quote Malachi 3:7, what you are quoting is saying that if you don't follow God's laws, you will be robbing Him.  Do YOU follow God's laws and tithe from crops and animals raised on the Holy land?  Do YOU follow God's law and take the tithe to the Levites?  If you take the tithe to other than a Levite, per Malachi 3:7-10 YOU are robbing God.

We were living under a curse for not tithing, under a great deal of debt and trouble. That trouble was certainly not the blessing of God! Within a few months of beginning to tithe, we were completely out of debt. God honoured us and caused our dollars to go further than they would have had we not honoured Him first with our finances.

God's word is gold!

According to scriptures, you are not tithing unless it is food to be consumed by the Levitical priesthood. Also, the year of the tithe where you feed the father less, widows and the preists.

Paul is very clear, that those that preach the gospel live of the gospel. He didn't say the tithe.  ::giggle::  

1Cr 9:9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen

1Cr 9:10   Or saith he [it] altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, [this] is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

1Cr 9:10   Or saith he [it] altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, [this] is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

1Cr 9:12   If others be partakers of [this] power over you, [are] not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.  

1Cr 9:13   Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live [of the things] of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?

1Cr 9:14   Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.  

1Cr 9:15   But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for [it were] better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.  

Nothing about tithing there and he is talking about money.

1Ti 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer [is] worthy of his reward.

Which confirms what Jesus taught as well

Luk 10:7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.

Here is robbering in the NT.

2Cr 11:8 I robbed other churches, taking wages [of them], to do you service.

2Cr 11:9   And when I was present with you, and wanted, I was chargeable to no man: for that which was lacking to me the brethren which came from Macedonia supplied: and in all [things] I have kept myself from being burdensome unto you, and [so] will I keep [myself].  

2Cr 12:14 Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours, but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children.

and

1Th 2:6 Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor [yet] of others, when we might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ.

Paul and those he sent was not burdesome to the church but preached the gospel with power and signs following.

Grace to all.

According to God I am tithing. Thanks.

: Lively Stone  Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 16:53:08
According to God I am tithing. Thanks.

Many claim to hear from God.  But there is only ONE way to confirm whether it is God we are hearing from, or some other spirit.  IF it matches scripture, then it is from God.  If it contradicts the scripture, then it is not from God.

The scripture is clear as to what constitutes God's tithe, and who that tithe is to be taken to.

You might have heard from the Spirit that you should give a tenth of your income to the church, but I cannot believe that the Spirit told you to "tithe."

: garyarnold  Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 17:50:58

: Lively Stone  Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 16:53:08
According to God I am tithing. Thanks.

Many claim to hear from God.  But there is only ONE way to confirm whether it is God we are hearing from, or some other spirit.  IF it matches scripture, then it is from God.  If it contradicts the scripture, then it is not from God.

The scripture is clear as to what constitutes God's tithe, and who that tithe is to be taken to.

You might have heard from the Spirit that you should give a tenth of your income to the church, but I cannot believe that the Spirit told you to "tithe."

I take it you are not familiar with rhema.

Tithing after the law does not do away with the law, but establishes it. Are you honestly blessed to where you can give generously on every occasion? Or are you like so many that can't give the way they would like to be able to?

There are those who say that the tithe is not covered in the New Testament, but in Hebrews 5, 6 and 7, one of the main subjects spoken of is the tithe--who receives it and how to become mature through paying it.

In Hebrews 5:11-14 it states "...that you've become dull of hearing and that you should be teaching the first principles, but instead you have need of milk, and not solid food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the Word of righteousness, for he is a baby." This is preceded by the statement that Christ himself has become High Priest after the order of Melchizedek. In Chapter 6, it goes on to state that once you have been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift--once you have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good Word of God--if you still fall away it is impossible to be renewed again to repentance, seeing that you crucify again for yourselves the Son of God and put Him to an open shame.

What is this good Word of God? This Word is "rhema" which means the spoken or revealed Word of God. His Word has been revealed to you concerning Jesus as High Priest after the order of Melchizedek, meaning that Jesus has become High Priest over the tithe, (and your life) forever (vs. 20). Chapter 6 further states (vs. 9-19), that God blessed Abraham by saying "With blessings, I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply you." He also promised immutability (unchangeableness) of His counsel and confirmed it by swearing an oath that by these unchangeable things, we might have strong consolation and lay hold of the hope set before us. Verse 19 states that this hope we have is an anchor for our soul (mind), both sure and steadfast. I am convinced these two unchangeable things are both God's promise to bless us and our promise to tithe back to Him. Chapter 7 states in verse 8, "Here mortal men receive tithes, but there He receives them of whom it is witnessed, that He lives."

Chapters 5-7 deals with the ministry of Melchizedek and that Jesus is the priest forever according to Melchizedek. We know Abraham gave tithes of all that he possessed. We know in the Law of Moses, tithes were commanded. After the Law, Hebrews states that Jesus is the Lord, not just of the past, not just of the present, but forever. Hallelujah! He is the Lord of the tithe, forever.

Seeing that Jesus is the Lord of the tithe, is He our lord? If He is, there should be no question that we tithe unto Him. I can just hear someone saying, " If Jesus was my Pastor, I would tithe," but Hebrews 7:8 states "that men (subject to death) receive tithes on this side; but on the other side, Jesus Himself receives them." Why should we look for ways to excuse us from what we know we should be doing? Let's be about establishing and not doing away with His Words. The tithe was, and is and shall ever be holy unto the Lord.

Hebrews 7:8 (KJV)  And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

The Book of Hebrews was written before the Temple was destroyed, and the Israelites kept tithing to the Levitical priesthood until the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD.

And here men that die receive tithes - the Levites
But there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth - Melchizekek.

The Bible CLEARLY SHOWS that the tithe ENDED at the cross in the Book of Hebrews.  In the first nine verses of Hebrews 7 the words tenth or tithes appears SEVEN TIMES.  The ONLY place in the Bible, after Calvary, that tithing appears is in Hebrews 7.

In Hebrews 7:5 we are told that Levi (the Levites) took the tithes under the law.  In Hebrews 7:12 we are told that when the priesthood changes, the law will change.  Hebrews 7:18 is telling us that Numbers 18 was disannulled.  Numbers 18 established the Levitical priesthood, and part of that establishing included tithing.  When the Levitical priesthood ended (at Calvary, or at least in the year 70AD when the temple was destroyed), all laws that established that priesthood were canceled.  If Numbers 18 wasn't canceled, we would still be under the Levitical priesthood.

You asked, "Are you honestly blessed to where you can give generously on every occasion? Or are you like so many that can't give the way they would like to be able to?"

My answer:  Yes.  Being Spirit led, I find myself giving much more than a mere tenth of my income.

: garyarnold  Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 20:27:22
Hebrews 7:8 (KJV)  And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

The Book of Hebrews was written before the Temple was destroyed, and the Israelites kept tithing to the Levitical priesthood until the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD.

And here men that die receive tithes - the Levites
But there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth - Melchizekek.

The Bible CLEARLY SHOWS that the tithe ENDED at the cross in the Book of Hebrews.  In the first nine verses of Hebrews 7 the words tenth or tithes appears SEVEN TIMES.  The ONLY place in the Bible, after Calvary, that tithing appears is in Hebrews 7.

In Hebrews 7:5 we are told that Levi (the Levites) took the tithes under the law.  In Hebrews 7:12 we are told that when the priesthood changes, the law will change.  Hebrews 7:18 is telling us that Numbers 18 was disannulled.  Numbers 18 established the Levitical priesthood, and part of that establishing included tithing.  When the Levitical priesthood ended (at Calvary, or at least in the year 70AD when the temple was destroyed), all laws that established that priesthood were canceled.  If Numbers 18 wasn't canceled, we would still be under the Levitical priesthood.

You asked, "Are you honestly blessed to where you can give generously on every occasion? Or are you like so many that can't give the way they would like to be able to?"

My answer:  Yes.  Being Spirit led, I find myself giving much more than a mere tenth of my income.

That's great! One tenth goes to the storehouse, the local church, and the alms is the remaining portion that we have freedom to designate as we wish.

However, the tithe is our pleasure to worship God with.

One tenth goes to the storehouse, the local church, and the alms is the remaining portion that we have freedom to designate as we wish.

Not according to:
Nehemiah 10:37-38 (KJV)
37And that we should bring the firstfruits of our dough, and our offerings, and the fruit of all manner of trees, of wine and of oil, unto the priests, to the chambers of the house of our God; and the tithes of our ground unto the Levites, that the same Levites might have the tithes in all the cities of our tillage.
38And the priest the son of Aaron shall be with the Levites, when the Levites take tithes: and the Levites shall bring up the tithe of the tithes unto the house of our God, to the chambers, into the treasure house.

So the scriptures tell us that the tithe went to the Levites, and the Levites gave a tenth of the tithe to the priests.  Only the tenth of the tithe went to the Temple storehouse, not the whole tithe.

The full tithe is to go to the storehouse---the local church.

Malachi 3:10-11
Bring all the tithes into the storehouse,
      That there may be food in My house,
      And try Me now in this,

The full tithe is to go to the storehouse---the local church.
That's not Biblical.

Malachi 3:10-11
Bring all the tithes into the storehouse,
      That there may be food in My house,
Notice the word FOOD in my house?  FOOD, not money.
     

      " If I will not open for you the windows of heaven
      And pour out for you such blessing
RAIN.  The blessing was RAIN so that...
      That there will not be room enough to receive it.

       11 " And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes,
      So that he will not destroy the fruit of your ground,
      Nor shall the vine fail to bear fruit for you in the field,

: garyarnold  Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 22:55:20
The full tithe is to go to the storehouse---the local church.
That's not Biblical.

Malachi 3:10-11
Bring all the tithes into the storehouse,
      That there may be food in My house,
Notice the word FOOD in my house?  FOOD, not money.
     

      " If I will not open for you the windows of heaven
      And pour out for you such blessing
RAIN.  The blessing was RAIN so that...
      That there will not be room enough to receive it.

       11 " And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes,
      So that he will not destroy the fruit of your ground,
      Nor shall the vine fail to bear fruit for you in the field,

No changing is happening. It is revelation--rhema.

It is nothing but your mind.  You've been brainwashed.  That's all there is to it.

But if it makes you happy, maybe helps your ego, you will do what you want to do and rationalize it.

Jesus paid the whole price.  Those who think tithing is appropriate today are generally cheapskates.  They give a tenth and think they have done their part.

You can use the Old Testament as your guideline if you wish.  I will continue to use the Holy Spirit and be a generous giver, from the heart, as the Spirit leads me.  I have been blessed financially (and in many other ways) beyond my dreams without ever tithing.  Yet I know many who believe in tithing and have trouble making it from paycheck to paycheck.

: garyarnold  Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 23:38:27
No changing is happening. It is revelation--rhema.

It is nothing but your mind.  You've been brainwashed.  That's all there is to it.

But if it makes you happy, maybe helps your ego, you will do what you want to do and rationalize it.

Jesus paid the whole price.  Those who think tithing is appropriate today are generally cheapskates.  They give a tenth and think they have done their part.

You can use the Old Testament as your guideline if you wish.  I will continue to use the Holy Spirit and be a generous giver, from the heart, as the Spirit leads me.  I have been blessed financially (and in many other ways) beyond my dreams without ever tithing.  Yet I know many who believe in tithing and have trouble making it from paycheck to paycheck.

Actually it is the anti-tither that tends toward cheapness. I find it insulting that what God has spoken to me and my husband you denounce as brainwashing. Of course it isn't at all.

Paying the tithe is the outward expression of inner commitment — or lack of it. It is material and financial surrender prompted by spiritual surrender.

The tenth is only the start.

We know that God owns everything and he has given us the role of stewardship, with the firstfruits returning to Him. It is a pleasure to honour and worship God in this way.

I don't know ANY tithers (and most people I know are tithers) who live paycheck to paycheck and have financial difficulties. God's promise of provision comes into play for them.

I don't know ANY tithers (and most people I know are tithers) who live paycheck to paycheck and have financial difficulties. God's promise of provision comes into play for them.

I know of some tithers who are financially well off, but I also know many who live paycheck to paycheck.  In fact, I had tithers ask for my financial assistance.  I finally had to tell one of them that if he wanted me to help his family financially, they would have to stop tithing because if they didn't tithe, I wouldn't have to help them so much.

I also know of many atheists who are doing very well financially.

I find absolutely no connection between tithing and a persons finances other than many tithers are more careful with their money to begin with.  Some are probably better stewards of their money. 

As a Money & Finance Minister, I do teach that God does bless those who give from the heart.  However, I also teach that God will bless who he wants and for whatever reason he wants, and just because someone is a giver doesn't mean God will bless them financially.  I have known some who tithe but are terrible stewards with the 90% left.  No wonder God doesn't bless them with even more money. 

But God is not a slot machine.  The motive for giving should be the gift, NOT that you will or might get something back. 

A history of tithing in the Christian Church reveals that getting more money was the motive to teach tithing around 1870, not that it was correct.  It was, and still is, all about the money.  Money has corrupted our politians.  Money has corrupted the church.  Money has corrupted people in general.

I've had meeting with several pastors about their teaching of tithing.  One was honest enough to tell me he knows that tithing is not appropriate today, but he feels that people just don't want to give so he teaches robbing God if you don't tithe, knowing all along that he is teaching lies.  And this is one of the most respected pastors in this area.

God blesses those who obey Him, and those he deems trustworthy to Him. Those who reject the tithe will obviously not have any right to expect God to honour His promises that go along with it.

As for me and my house, we will worship and honour God with our tithe and we can hold God to His word concerning it.

I find it insulting that what God has spoken to me and my husband you denounce as brainwashing.

I don't believe it was God who spoke to you and your husband.  The reason I can't believe it, is because it contradicts God's Word.

Furthermore, just a few years ago I was asked by a pastor if I would teach a Sunday School Class in finances.  I agreed.  While preparing for the class is when I discovered that everything I had been taught about tithing was wrong.  I went back to the pastor and told him what I had found.  He said he would do his own research.  Days later he stopped teaching Malachi 3, and a few weeks later he stopped teaching tithing altogether.

When I saw the scriptures contradicted everything I have been taught about tithing, I prayed and prayed and prayed and ask the Lord to please show me the truth.  The Lord spoke to me and explained that tithing is on HIS miracles and NOT man's income.  He told me to "tell the people" that He never intended man to tithe on his income.

What I heard matches up perfectly with the scriptures.  What you heard does not.  The tithe was only on God's miraculous increase of FOOD from crops and animals.  Wage earners did not tithe.  Jesus, as a carpenter, did not tithe.  Until one gets the revelation from God that the Biblical tithe ALWAYS came from God's miracles and NEVER from man's income, one will never understand the Biblical tithe.

: garyarnold  Wed Aug 31, 2011 - 00:20:01
I find it insulting that what God has spoken to me and my husband you denounce as brainwashing.

I don't believe it was God who spoke to you and your husband.  The reason I can't believe it, is because it contradicts God's Word.

Furthermore, just a few years ago I was asked by a pastor if I would teach a Sunday School Class in finances.  I agreed.  While preparing for the class is when I discovered that everything I had been taught about tithing was wrong.  I went back to the pastor and told him what I had found.  He said he would do his own research.  Days later he stopped teaching Malachi 3, and a few weeks later he stopped teaching tithing altogether.

When I saw the scriptures contradicted everything I have been taught about tithing, I prayed and prayed and prayed and ask the Lord to please show me the truth.  The Lord spoke to me and explained that tithing is on HIS miracles and NOT man's income.  He told me to "tell the people" that He never intended man to tithe on his income.

What I heard matches up perfectly with the scriptures.  What you heard does not.  The tithe was only on God's miraculous increase of FOOD from crops and animals.  Wage earners did not tithe.  Jesus, as a carpenter, did not tithe.  Until one gets the revelation from God that the Biblical tithe ALWAYS came from God's miracles and NEVER from man's income, one will never understand the Biblical tithe.

Actually it was indeed God who has spoken to us about tithing. There is nothing contradictory about it. It is right and good that we fully trust God with EVERYTHING!  It is an act of worship and honour to the Father, Jehovah Jireh, and we thank and praise Jesus Christ for leading us to tithe, and for the many wonderful blessings from His hand that we have incurred since we began.

Actually it was indeed God who has spoken to us about tithing.

If that is what you believe, so be it.  But you have no scripture to back up your belief.  I have scripture to back up my belief.

You can say all you want, but if you don't have scripture to back it up, your words are meaningless to me.

: garyarnold  Wed Aug 31, 2011 - 00:28:32
Actually it was indeed God who has spoken to us about tithing.

If that is what you believe, so be it.  But you have no scripture to back up your belief.  I have scripture to back up my belief.

You can say all you want, but if you don't have scripture to back it up, your words are meaningless to me.

I have the entire Bible, thanks! God's words.

I have the entire Bible, thanks! God's words.

And so do I.  And I can't find even one verse where anyone ever tithed on their income.  I can't find even one verse where a church building is the storehouse referred to in the Bible.  I can't find even one verse where God gave anyone, other than the Levites, permission to receive His tithe.

The tithe was taken to the Levites who were the servants to the priests.  They were the ushers, musicians, singers, janitors, etc.  The workers.  Then the Levites gave a tenth of the tithe to the priests.  Is that the way you do it?

Give me some scripture to show me what you do is Biblical.  What you are telling me is that God gave you instructions that differ from those in His Word.  If the aren't different, then quote the scripture.  Give me scripture to show that God commanded other than FOOD from crops and animals to be tithed.  Give me scripture to show that God commanded anyone other than the Israelite farmers and herdsmen to tithe.  Give scripture, not words with no backup.

If you can't quote the specific scriptures, then how is anyone supposed to believe what you say is truth?

: garyarnold  Wed Aug 31, 2011 - 00:57:42
I have the entire Bible, thanks! God's words.

And so do I.  And I can't find even one verse where anyone ever tithed on their income.  I can't find even one verse where a church building is the storehouse referred to in the Bible.  I can't find even one verse where God gave anyone, other than the Levites, permission to receive His tithe.

The tithe was taken to the Levites who were the servants to the priests.  They were the ushers, musicians, singers, janitors, etc.  The workers.  Then the Levites gave a tenth of the tithe to the priests.  Is that the way you do it?

Give me some scripture to show me what you do is Biblical.  What you are telling me is that God gave you instructions that differ from those in His Word.  If the aren't different, then quote the scripture.  Give me scripture to show that God commanded other than FOOD from crops and animals to be tithed.  Give me scripture to show that God commanded anyone other than the Israelite farmers and herdsmen to tithe.  Give scripture, not words with no backup.

If you can't quote the specific scriptures, then how is anyone supposed to believe what you say is truth?

What you do is accept that God is able and does often visit His people with rhema and He expects them to obey Him. It comes from the reading of His word and is a personal revelation. Millions of Christians around the world from the beginning receive rhema from the Holy Spirit about myriad matters, and tithing is just one.

You have to respect that and not mock His power to do so.

You have to respect that and not mock His power to do so.

God has the power to do anything.  But how can I possibly believe that he tells you the opposite of what he tells me?  How can one know what to believe IF you can't back it up with scripture?  How does one know if it is God's Spirit or another spirit talking to them?  There is only ONE way, and the Bible tells us so.  We must compare what we hear WITH THE SCRIPTURES. 

God's Word does not change.

Mark 7:13 (NIV)
13Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.

When they can't find support in Scriptures for their theology... They pull that old fashioned Rhema word.... "God told me".  That is a sure sign, they are aware they can't find any verse to back up what they are saying.  That is why I love ISA 8:20 and Acts 17:11.

ISA 8:20. To the law and the testimony, if they speak not according to this word, there is no light in them.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, (to see) whether those things were so.

We did search the Scriptures to see if there was a tithing law before Moses or after the temple was destroyed and guess what... It isn't so.

That is quite clear, isn't?  Lets make sure we don't lose sight of that.  That is the litmus test for doctrine.  If it goes against our written marching orders, it is ok to ignore it.

Peace

: garyarnold  Wed Aug 31, 2011 - 01:26:28
You have to respect that and not mock His power to do so.

God has the power to do anything.  But how can I possibly believe that he tells you the opposite of what he tells me?  How can one know what to believe IF you can't back it up with scripture?  How does one know if it is God's Spirit or another spirit talking to them?  There is only ONE way, and the Bible tells us so.  We must compare what we hear WITH THE SCRIPTURES. 

God's Word does not change.

Mark 7:13 (NIV)
13Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.

The ares of blessing spoken in the Bible concerning the tithe are only for farmers in Israel that bring 1/10 of the produce of their land to the Temple in Jerusalem.  There is no one on the planet doing that.

If I have a Rhema word that God will bless those that give 1% of their income to widows... If that is the case... (hypothetical situation)...

1.  Will God keep his blessings from everyone that do not give 1% of their income to widows?
2.  Will God call me to preach to the world a new blessing that is not in the Bible?
3.  Will God call me to refer to it as a law, an actual,  unscriptural law that is in effect even though it is not in the Bible?
4.  Will God establish a new law that is not in the Bible, to a church that is not under the law?
5.  Am I accountable to a law that is not in the Bible?
6.  Am I accountable to a Rhema word?

That is the issue here.

Let me say this also: even an evil sinner who tithes receives certain benefits because there are promises of God built in.

I guess you mean the promises listed in Malachi 3 - RAIN and protection from LOCUSTS.

The promises in Malachi 3 are to the NATION, as a whole, not to any individual.  If the NATION did not follow the laws properly, the NATION would be curses.  If the NATION followed the laws, the NATION would be blessed.

: Talking Donkey  Wed Aug 31, 2011 - 11:36:56
The ares of blessing spoken in the Bible concerning the tithe are only for farmers in Israel that bring 1/10 of the produce of their land to the Temple in Jerusalem.  There is no one on the planet doing that.

If I have a Rhema word that God will bless those that give 1% of their income to widows... If that is the case... (hypothetical situation)...

1.  Will God keep his blessings from everyone that do not give 1% of their income to widows?
2.  Will God call me to preach to the world a new blessing that is not in the Bible?
3.  Will God call me to refer to it as a law, an actual,  unscriptural law that is in effect even though it is not in the Bible?
4.  Will God establish a new law that is not in the Bible, to a church that is not under the law?
5.  Am I accountable to a law that is not in the Bible?
6.  Am I accountable to a Rhema word?

That is the issue here.

The blessing is for anyone and everyone who takes God at His word. All promises are guarantees and all stand forever.

The blessing is for anyone and everyone who takes God at His word. A all promises are guarantees and all stand forever.

Instead of just making your own statements, why not back up what you say with scripture?  Nobody cares what you say or think.  Nobody cares what I say or think.  What matters is WHAT DOES THE WORD SAY.  Now, quote it for a change!

: garyarnold  Wed Aug 31, 2011 - 11:54:47
The blessing is for anyone and everyone who takes God at His word. All promises are guarantees and all stand forever.

Instead of just making your own statements, why not back up what you say with scripture?  Nobody cares what you say or think.  Nobody cares what I say or think.  What matters is WHAT DOES THE WORD SAY.  Now, quote it for a change!

I care what people say and think. That is why I am a member here. I think your rudeness is overwhelming and not indicative of godly character.

I have provided scripture and explained how God has spoken to our family as well as countless other believers.

You are not convinced. That's OK. Holy Spirit has not spoken to you about this, or He has and you have turned a deaf ear.

That is between you and the Lord. It is not my job to convince you of something Holy Spirit has the power and authority to do.

I am simply sharing what the Lord has spoken to us. Rejoice with those who rejoice and be done with it.

I am simply sharing what the Lord has spoken to us.

And I have shared what the Lord has spoken to me, which is the opposite of what you claim the Lord said to you.

Again, the ONLY way you can possibly know if it were really the Lord who speaks is IF what is spoken lines up perfectly with His Word.

The Lord has told me to tell the people that he did NOT intend for anyone to tithe on their income.  That lines up perfectly with His Word.

: Lively Stone  Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 16:53:08

: NTPREACHER4U  Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 16:51:02

: Lively Stone  Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 16:15:19

: garyarnold  Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 16:10:20

: Lively Stone  Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 15:50:32
Malachi 3:7-12

Giving to God a Tenth Part
7 "From the days of your fathers you have turned aside from My Laws and have not obeyed them.....

Did you actually read verse 7 above?  Pastor's seldom start with verse 7 because it totally destroys their tithing arguments.

Now, do you know exactly which laws the Israelites had turned aside from and not obeyed?  Try Leviticus 27:30-33 and Numbers 18, which God commands His tithe be taken to the Levites.

You see, if you are going to quote Malachi 3:7, what you are quoting is saying that if you don't follow God's laws, you will be robbing Him.  Do YOU follow God's laws and tithe from crops and animals raised on the Holy land?  Do YOU follow God's law and take the tithe to the Levites?  If you take the tithe to other than a Levite, per Malachi 3:7-10 YOU are robbing God.

We were living under a curse for not tithing, under a great deal of debt and trouble. That trouble was certainly not the blessing of God! Within a few months of beginning to tithe, we were completely out of debt. God honoured us and caused our dollars to go further than they would have had we not honoured Him first with our finances.

God's word is gold!

According to scriptures, you are not tithing unless it is food to be consumed by the Levitical priesthood. Also, the year of the tithe where you feed the father less, widows and the preists.

Paul is very clear, that those that preach the gospel live of the gospel. He didn't say the tithe.  ::giggle::  

1Cr 9:9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen

1Cr 9:10   Or saith he [it] altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, [this] is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

1Cr 9:10   Or saith he [it] altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, [this] is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

1Cr 9:12   If others be partakers of [this] power over you, [are] not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.  

1Cr 9:13   Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live [of the things] of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?

1Cr 9:14   Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.  

1Cr 9:15   But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for [it were] better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.  

Nothing about tithing there and he is talking about money.

1Ti 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer [is] worthy of his reward.

Which confirms what Jesus taught as well

Luk 10:7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.

Here is robbering in the NT.

2Cr 11:8 I robbed other churches, taking wages [of them], to do you service.

2Cr 11:9   And when I was present with you, and wanted, I was chargeable to no man: for that which was lacking to me the brethren which came from Macedonia supplied: and in all [things] I have kept myself from being burdensome unto you, and [so] will I keep [myself].  

2Cr 12:14 Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours, but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children.

and

1Th 2:6 Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor [yet] of others, when we might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ.

Paul and those he sent was not burdesome to the church but preached the gospel with power and signs following.

Grace to all.

According to God I am tithing. Thanks.

If you believe you are tithing according the Old Testament, then you don't know what it says about tithing. Not one place is the tithe money and they had money since Genesis. It was the Isrealites that had crops from their harvest, animals spices are these are things you eat, not money. Then you have to bring them to the temple and present them to the Leviictical priest who had no land but the tithe was their reward for their work of the temple.

If you do none of these, then how can you say you are tithing according to  God. Show me the scriptures that you are doing, that says you tithe from your income. It's not in the OLD Testament. Jesus was God in the flesh and it is not recorded that anyone tithed to him or that he tithed from his income he recieved from his work in the ministry.

The New Testament never says how much to give when you give alms or give to the a pastor or man of God the preaches the gospel.

Prove yourself that you be in the faith. Examine yourself that Jesus Christ is in you and his words are in you teaching and correcting one another. The law came by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. Today God is talking to us by his Son that he made the heir of the world. What did Jesus say about Tithing to his followers?

Grace to all.

: garyarnold  Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 22:55:20
The full tithe is to go to the storehouse---the local church.
That's not Biblical.

Malachi 3:10-11
Bring all the tithes into the storehouse,
      That there may be food in My house,
Notice the word FOOD in my house?  FOOD, not money.
     

      " If I will not open for you the windows of heaven
      And pour out for you such blessing
RAIN.  The blessing was RAIN so that...
      That there will not be room enough to receive it.

       11 " And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes,
      So that he will not destroy the fruit of your ground,
      Nor shall the vine fail to bear fruit for you in the field,

: Lively Stone  Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 23:53:13

: garyarnold  Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 23:38:27
No changing is happening. It is revelation--rhema.

It is nothing but your mind.  You've been brainwashed.  That's all there is to it.

But if it makes you happy, maybe helps your ego, you will do what you want to do and rationalize it.

Jesus paid the whole price.  Those who think tithing is appropriate today are generally cheapskates.  They give a tenth and think they have done their part.

You can use the Old Testament as your guideline if you wish.  I will continue to use the Holy Spirit and be a generous giver, from the heart, as the Spirit leads me.  I have been blessed financially (and in many other ways) beyond my dreams without ever tithing.  Yet I know many who believe in tithing and have trouble making it from paycheck to paycheck.

Actually it is the anti-tither that tends toward cheapness. I find it insulting that what God has spoken to me and my husband you denounce as brainwashing. Of course it isn't at all.

Paying the tithe is the outward expression of inner commitment — or lack of it. It is material and financial surrender prompted by spiritual surrender.

The tenth is only the start.

We know that God owns everything and he has given us the role of stewardship, with the firstfruits returning to Him. It is a pleasure to honour and worship God in this way.

I don't know ANY tithers (and most people I know are tithers) who live paycheck to paycheck and have financial difficulties. God's promise of provision comes into play for them.

I can say the opposite. I know a lot of tithers that are financilly broke, living pay check to pay check. When I did tithe(deiceved) I had to get a second job to make ends meet, which I was hardly home, but when I saw the truth, that tithing is not a NT teaching that Jesus  taught and that we are to be led by the Spirit and to give cheerfully, I never lived in lack again. In fact I paid my debts off, cleaned my credit up and gave as the Lord directed me always cheefully. And as a gentile that turned to God, the leaders in the book of Acts never told them to tithe but those that told them to follow the law of Moses were falser brethern trying to subvert thier souls.

Grace to all.

: NTPREACHER4U  Wed Aug 31, 2011 - 12:44:14

: Lively Stone  Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 23:53:13

: garyarnold  Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 23:38:27
No changing is happening. It is revelation--rhema.

It is nothing but your mind.  You've been brainwashed.  That's all there is to it.

But if it makes you happy, maybe helps your ego, you will do what you want to do and rationalize it.

Jesus paid the whole price.  Those who think tithing is appropriate today are generally cheapskates.  They give a tenth and think they have done their part.

You can use the Old Testament as your guideline if you wish.  I will continue to use the Holy Spirit and be a generous giver, from the heart, as the Spirit leads me.  I have been blessed financially (and in many other ways) beyond my dreams without ever tithing.  Yet I know many who believe in tithing and have trouble making it from paycheck to paycheck.

Actually it is the anti-tither that tends toward cheapness. I find it insulting that what God has spoken to me and my husband you denounce as brainwashing. Of course it isn't at all.

Paying the tithe is the outward expression of inner commitment — or lack of it. It is material and financial surrender prompted by spiritual surrender.

The tenth is only the start.

We know that God owns everything and he has given us the role of stewardship, with the firstfruits returning to Him. It is a pleasure to honour and worship God in this way.

I don't know ANY tithers (and most people I know are tithers) who live paycheck to paycheck and have financial difficulties. God's promise of provision comes into play for them.

I can say the opposite. I know a lot of tithers that are financilly broke, living pay check to pay check. When I did tithe(deiceved) I had to get a second job to make ends meet, which I was hardly home, but when I saw the truth, that tithing is not a NT teaching that Jesus  taught and that we are to be led by the Spirit and to give cheerfully, I never lived in lack again. In fact I paid my debts off, cleaned my credit up and gave as the Lord directed me always cheefully. And as a gentile that turned to God, the leaders in the book of Acts never told them to tithe but those that told them to follow the law of Moses were falser brethern trying to subvert thier souls.

Grace to all.

Many non-tithers have more money that tithers, but they still suffer lack of on various fronts. They do not trust God completely with everything, nor do they believe that God owns everything, but they hold that their money is their very own.

Thank God for New Testament preachers!

We know there are bacteria and germs in our hands.  People get sick for not washing their hands.

Shall I preach that we are called to wash our hands before eating as a Rhema word?  

Shall I quote the old testament where it says the priest had to wash their hands before entering the Tabernacle as proof that we will be blessed if we wash our hands and be robbed of a health-blessing if we don't?

Peace

We know that God owns everything and he has given us the role of stewardship, with the firstfruits returning to Him.

Firstfruits means the first of the PRODUCE, not money or income.

Proverbs 3:9 (KJV)  "Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase:

: garyarnold  Wed Aug 31, 2011 - 00:20:01
I find it insulting that what God has spoken to me and my husband you denounce as brainwashing.

I don't believe it was God who spoke to you and your husband.  The reason I can't believe it, is because it contradicts God's Word.

Furthermore, just a few years ago I was asked by a pastor if I would teach a Sunday School Class in finances.  I agreed.  While preparing for the class is when I discovered that everything I had been taught about tithing was wrong.  I went back to the pastor and told him what I had found.  He said he would do his own research.  Days later he stopped teaching Malachi 3, and a few weeks later he stopped teaching tithing altogether.

When I saw the scriptures contradicted everything I have been taught about tithing, I prayed and prayed and prayed and ask the Lord to please show me the truth.  The Lord spoke to me and explained that tithing is on HIS miracles and NOT man's income.  He told me to "tell the people" that He never intended man to tithe on his income.

What I heard matches up perfectly with the scriptures.  What you heard does not.  The tithe was only on God's miraculous increase of FOOD from crops and animals.  Wage earners did not tithe.  Jesus, as a carpenter, did not tithe.  Until one gets the revelation from God that the Biblical tithe ALWAYS came from God's miracles and NEVER from man's income, one will never understand the Biblical tithe.

Awesome. The same thing happen to me.  A brother was struggling finanacilly and I wanted to help him out by finding the scriptures on tithing the NT and oops.....I couldn't. They are not there. Only in the OT will find the teaching and instructions on tithing. the curse for not and the blessings for doing it, but not in the NT.

Grace to all.

I believe tithing is of God, I believe God shows us in His Word that it is one of the ways He operates and it is embedded in the workings of the Universe as a principle... yet in the New Testament there are no curses from God attached to those who do not tithe

Look at it this way

The numbers 1-10 are representative of all numbers in that if you can count to ten you are able to count to infinity because once you get to ten you start over

So 10% represents the whole, mathematically and spiritually for God is the Master Mathematician but I digress

Now...in the world system, money is the means of exchange but before money, barter was the common means of exchange among the common person that being wheat, grain, oil, cattle and the like

In any case those things represent material substance and as such a means of exchange in the world system

However in the Kingdom, Faith is the means of exchange, in that the scripture says

The just shall live by Faith and Jesus even said if you have faith as small as a mustard seed you can basically do and have whatever you want.

Now back to God operating through tithing

God gave Jesus,

Jesus represented all humanity

Based on the principle of representation that the tithe represents

One can say Jesus was the tithe for mankind, taken one step further, the way I understand scripture

Jesus sacrifice was what the tithe represents

In other words I believe the tithe was a sign pointing to God's Plan of Salvation

Yet, even with that said, as a principle it is still effective according to the manner set forth in following scripture


If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches. Romans 11:16

Mammon, or money is referred to by Jesus as unrighteous, yet Jesus respected those who handled it in a righteous manner and often cited wise managers for being wise and prudent in their way of handling it

Jesus definitely spoke favorably of expecting a return on that which was sown or invested

God expected a return on sowing Jesus

Jesus being sown made what remained ( us ) Holy and acceptable to God

When we tithe, we do so as unto God, and the 10% we give represents the whole of what we have and as such makes what remains holy

In other words tithing blesses what remains

This is why you hear people that tithe often having miraculous stories of blessings that cannot be explained in any other way, so much so that some people tithe beyond 10% to 20,30 and I have heard of some who are wealthy living off the tithe and giving the larger portion to the church

But back to the ordinary tither, I know for instance, my tires last longer, far less unexpected financial problems seem to pop up, our family tends to stay more healthy for extended periods of time and people in positions of authority tend to show us favor in approving projects, deals, promotions so on and so on, where others more qualified are not approved we are.

Things like that just cannot be explained or explained away...we believe it is through tithing, what remains is blessed

Because of Jesus, When we receive Him as Lord, we are made righteous and now belong to God, meaning we are Blessed.
Those who remain in the world are unrighteous AND DO NOT belong to God

To be made righteous they must give their lives as well

When we tithe our money, we are saying what we have left belongs to God and it is now righteous

When we do not tithe, what we have left remains identified with the world, unrighteous and as such is remains vulnerable to the ways of the world, so to speak

So Malachi is not saying God curses you

The curse is in the world

In the same way not being saved does not mean God curses you

The curse is in the world and you are already part of it

Lastly since what we tithe is on a means of exchange

one can exchange time and service in lieu of money

What I have stated is not conclusive by any means just the way I understand it

Sorry for the lengthiness 


I will say that tithing does not make one acceptable or unacceptable to God only Salvation through Christ

"What sorrow awaits you Pharisees! For you are careful to tithe even the tiniest income from your herb gardens, but you ignore justice and the love of God. You should tithe, yes, but do not neglect the more important things. Luke 11:42

Luke 18:12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'

Thank you for your wise addition to this thread, gospel. You get manna!

One can say Jesus was the tithe for mankind, taken one step further, the way I understand scripture

Jesus sacrifice was what the tithe represents

In other words I believe the tithe was a sign pointing to God's Plan of Salvation

How absolutely terrible to infer that Jesus was the "tenth" for mankind.  Tithe means a tenth or tenth part.

How absolutely terrible to infer that Jesus sacrifice was only a tenth.

According to the International Bible Encyclopedia, the days of mere bartering ended before the days of Abraham.

Here are just a few examples from The Word to show they did, in fact, use money in Biblical times.

The tithing law itself proves they had both money and a marketing system for buying and selling their crops and animals (Deuteronomy 14:24-26).

THE PURCHASE OF LAND WITH MONEY BY ABRAHAM - Genesis 23:15-16

THE PURCHASE OF LAND WITH MONEY BY JACOB - Genesis 33:19

JOSEPH WAS SOLD TO THE ISHMEELITES FOR MONEY - Genesis 37:28

A MONEY OFFERING TO BE USED FOR THE SERVICE OF THE TABERNACLE - Exodus 30:14-16,

USING SHEKEL OF SILVER TO VALUE A RAM - Leviticus 5:15

THE FOLLOWING VERSES REFER TO WAGES: Genesis 29:15, Genesis 30:28, Genesis 31:7-8, Genesis 31:41, Exodus 2:9, Leviticus 19:13, Malachi 3:5, etc.

THEY HAD A MONEY STANDARD

There are several places in Scripture indicating that scales were used to weigh metals and other items. The Law of Moses, for example, commands Jews not to use dishonest standards, but instead, to use honest scales and honest weights. (See also Deut. 25:13-15; Job 6:2-3; 31:6; Psa. 62:9; Prov. 11:1; 16:11; 20:10, 23; Isa. 40:12; 46:6; and Jer. 32:10).

Leviticus 19:35-36 – Do not use dishonest standards when measuring length, weight or quantity. Use honest scales and honest weights, an honest ephah and an honest hin. I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt.

In order for money to be an exchangeable equivalent for other commodities in today's society, there must be a standard in place. Likewise, the Old Testament also had a set standard both prior to the law and during the law. A reference to a pre-law standard is in Genesis 23:16.

Merchants in biblical times traveled from place to place conducting business. According to the written law, the standard weight for metals was set according to the sanctuary shekel (See also Ex 30:13, 24; 38:24-26; Lev. 5:15; Num. 7:13-86; 18:16).

Leviticus 27:25 – Every value is to be set according to the sanctuary shekel, ...

In addition, 2 Samuel 14:26 shows that the weight standard for the shekel was set by the royal standard. No matter which era in history is studied, there existed a standard for the weight of precious metals.

Money was also used throughout the law. For example, God's people gave money to support the tabernacle (Ex. 30:14-16; 38:24-31). There are many other examples that illustrate money's place within the written law and indicate that money was indeed a part of everyday life. Exodus 35 provides such an example.

Exodus 35:5, 21-22 – From what you have, take an offering for the LORD. Everyone who is willing is to bring to the LORD an offering of gold, silver and bronze;

And there are many more examples to show that money was used for everyday transactions well before the Levitical tithe.

The number ten symbolizes a whole item, and also completion.

From Christian Resources Today, "Ten : 10  - Biblical Meaning of Number: deals with completeness that happens in a divine order or completed during a course of time. There's nothing that is left wanting within the complete cycle the number ten has just completed.

How absolutely terrible to infer that Jesus was the "tenth" for mankind.  Tithe means a tenth or tenth part. How absolutely terrible to infer that Jesus sacrifice was only a tenth.

In your zeal to argue you missed something, "PRINCIPLE"

The tithe " REPRESENTS" all your money

Jesus "REPRESENTED" all of mankind

The principle is "REPRESENTATION"

God gave Jesus and gained a family


I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds.  John 12:24


If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches. Romans 11:16

"PRINCIPLE"

According to the International Bible Encyclopedia, the days of mere bartering ended before the days of Abraham.

So what!!

They still tithed in wheat and grain, sometimes out of all they had AND money

What is your point?

The number ten symbolizes a whole item, and also completion.

Same thing I said a different way, a 10th of something represents the whole the principle is REPRESENTATION

Yes God wants all of you but don't be religious! In other words that sounds good, it sounds like a nice religious thing to say

But in reality God knows you can't give Him a hundred percent

In other words if you have a job, if you are married, if you have children you already have obligated a huge majority of yourself to things other than God

That's to be expected and God frowns upon those who are not honorable in those responsibilities

The 10th also represents your faith, in that you are not totally dependent upon the world's means of exchange for your well being

It is not for God as much as it is for you

Helping you keep your focus on God's Provision rather than your paycheck

But there is no condemnation... if you don't

I'm just telling you the benefits

You don't have to avail yourself of it ...

....just understand that some people find it a blessing to tithe

others do not

Since the word tithe means a tenth, it can't possible represent ALL YOUR MONEY in principle.  That is ridiculous.  You need to find out what a principle is.

Money was NOT accepted as a tithe.  Yet money was REQUIRED to pay the Temple Tax (tribute in KJV).

You come up with some phony principles that don't even make sense. 

If Jesus REPRESENTS a tithe, you are saying that Jesus represents a TENTH.

100% represents ALL, not a tenth.

I can't believe how tithers resort to this kind of cock-and-bull story!

The 10th also represents your faith, in that you are not totally dependent upon the world's means of exchange for your well being

Maybe the tenth represents your faith, but surely not mine.  My faith is represented by 100%, not a tenth.

Pastors who teach tithing don't have faith that God will provide for His Church.  The pastor is putting his faith in man - that man will provide the funds for the church.

Tithing is a scam that started around 1870.  History proves it.  Money has corrupted the church big time.  However, many pastors don't teach tithing.  One, John MacArthur, has a mega church in Los Angeles, with thousands of members.  He teaches truth, and the money automatically comes in.  He doesn't need to come up with a bunch of bull and tell lies to get the people to give.

: garyarnold  Wed Aug 31, 2011 - 17:01:58
The 10th also represents your faith, in that you are not totally dependent upon the world's means of exchange for your well being

Maybe the tenth represents your faith, but surely not mine.  My faith is represented by 100%, not a tenth.

Pastors who teach tithing don't have faith that God will provide for His Church.  The pastor is putting his faith in man - that man will provide the funds for the church.

Tithing is a scam that started around 1870.  History proves it.  Money has corrupted the church big time.  However, many pastors don't teach tithing.  One, John MacArthur, has a mega church in Los Angeles, with thousands of members.  He teaches truth, and the money automatically comes in.  He doesn't need to come up with a bunch of bull and tell lies to get the people to give.

Tithing represents to God that 100% is God's. It is the mark of one who fully trusts God for all things.

Tithing represents to God that 100% is God's. It is the mark of one who fully trusts God for all things.

Give scripture, please, to show that a tenth of your income represents to God that 100% is His.

One who fully trusts God for all things isn't concerned about a tenth.  They are concerned about the whole 100%.

: garyarnold  Wed Aug 31, 2011 - 16:34:32
Since the word tithe means a tenth, it can't possible represent ALL YOUR MONEY in principle.  That is ridiculous.  You need to find out what a principle is.

Money was NOT accepted as a tithe.  Yet money was REQUIRED to pay the Temple Tax (tribute in KJV).

You come up with some phony principles that don't even make sense. 

If Jesus REPRESENTS a tithe, you are saying that Jesus represents a TENTH.

100% represents ALL, not a tenth.

I can't believe how tithers resort to this kind of cock-and-bull story!

I see you're having difficulty with definitions I'll try again and then after that I'll just leave you to work it out for yourself

Forget 10th for a moment because you're getting hung up on that

Lets deal with Representation

An American Ambassador represents 300 million people, one person, 300 million people

We place an Embassy in a foreign nation, that Embassy represents America...are you following me?

You file an insurance claim they send an insurance agent, the agent is not the company he only represents the company.

Whatever he says to you the company is saying it, because he is an official representative of the company

You're buying a house, they require a down payment to seal the deal but the down payment does not purchase the house it only represents your good faith intention to follow through on the deal

REPRESENTATION!

Jesus fulfilled the Law, He met every requirement of the Old Covenant, He did it on behalf of the Jews and all those whom God would call through them.

Jesus was perfectly sinless, perfectly righteous and perfectly pleasing to the Father

Jesus represented YOU AND ME

YOU AND I should have been on the Cross but instead Jesus went to the Cross as Your and My representative

When God sees YOU he sees your REPRESENTATIVE


On top of that God is the one WHO GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN ( see John 3:16 )

Because Jesus went as a representative of ALL MANKIND

God went from having One Begotten Son to having many

He gave one as a representative to gain many

What are you missing about that

GIVING IS A PRINCIPLE,

TITHING IS A FORM OF GIVING

1 TENTH REPRESENTS THE WHOLE for the reasons already given

GIVING IS A PRINCIPLE,

TITHING IS A FORM OF GIVING

Using man's definition, tithing is a form of giving.  The Biblical tithe, however, was a payment, not a form of giving, according to Jesus in Matthew 23:23.  The Biblical tithe was a law, like a tax is a law.  The Israelites didn't tithe from the heart anymore than we pay our taxes from the heart.  The Biblical tithe had nothing to do with giving.  That is all man's teachings that misrepresents the Lord's tithe.

The Lord's tithe is defined in Leviticus 27:30-33 and the instructions are in Numbers 18.  Change any of that, and it no longer represents the Lord's tithe.

The word tithe does NOT mean give, it means tenth.  So when you say Jesus is the tithe, you are saying Jesus is the tenth.  The word tithe does not mean ten percent.  It means tenth.

If the Israelites had 19 new born animals in herds and flocks, the tithe was ONE animal.  One out of 19 = 5.26%

You are using the word tithe as though it means give, and it does not.

Matthew 23:23  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Do you mean there was a law of tithing, and a law of judgment, mercy and faith, and they should have done both?

1 Corinthian 16:1  Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.

1 Corinthian 16:2  Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
 
Was the "As God hath prospered him," to be everything that person had? Is there the possibility it could have been ten percent?

1 Corinthian 16:1  Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.

Notice, FOR THE SAINTS.  The collection was for the poor, not for some building, or salaries, etc.

For some, they may have given a tenth.  But tenth is not mentioned or inferred.

And notice in Matthew 23:23, Jesus did NOT say they should be tithing on their INCOME from their professions as teachers and lawyers.  Rather, the tithe came from the herbs - FOOD, and not from their income.

If we want to argue in favor of being generous with our money, then use the holy standard of the word of God in the new testament (verse 6).

2Cor 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

That principle of reaping proportionally to our sowing is a New Testament principle.  Preach that.  But the moment we mention the word "tithe" we are implying we give 10%, showing off our righteousness.  And when we go around telling others that our standard of giving (>10%) is what triggers blessings...we are crossing the line.   We should be really afraid of venturing into the land of preaching commandments of men, as if they are from God.  Giving is a gift of the spirit, and to measure spirituality relative to man made standard of one of the gifts, is nowhere to be found in the NT.  It is wrong to say that everyone is called to have one particular gift operating at one particular level, and that is what people do when they talk about tithing as something all Christians are called to do.

The tithe in the law of God was for the poor.  To tell the poor the reason they are poor is because they do not tithe goes against the word of God.  It is wrong to get tithe from the poor, the tithe is for the poor, not to get it extracted by telling them of a law that is not in effect.

Peace

: garyarnold  Wed Aug 31, 2011 - 19:35:46

1 Corinthian 16:1  Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.

Are you familiar with the estimation of value of the tithe of Leviticus Chapter Twenty-seven being turned into silver?

And so I take it to mean that for every purpose of collecting it was to be of crops for the poor, or possible mint and cumin for the preacher? In Revelation Chapters Two and Three, we read of churches at certain locations; how were they supported?  Do you believe that there were any traditions passed down from the fathers they didn't write of? Doesn't as you have prospered indicate some scale of payment such as a percentage?

Personally I do not care than none others honor God in that matter; I feel blessed to have the opportunity to give in support of spreading God's word. If a tenth is not required, neither would any other amount would it? And then whatever we give is to God regardless of who we hand it to.

Are you familiar with the estimation of value of the tithe of Leviticus Chapter Twenty-seven being turned into silver?

ONLY IF the tithe of the crops is redeemed (purchased back), in which case a fifth had to be added to the value.  The tithe, itself, could NEVER be money.

The church is to be financed by free-will gifts.  And many churches are.  Many do not teach tithing and they do just fine without having to lie or beg for money.

And so I take it to mean that for every purpose of collecting it was to be of crops for the poor, or possible mint and cumin for the preacher?

Are you talking about Old Testament tithing or New Testament giving?

Either way, "collections" could be money or anything.  But the tithe was always FOOD from crops and animals, nothing else.

: garyarnold  Wed Aug 31, 2011 - 20:14:23

And so I take it to mean that for every purpose of collecting it was to be of crops for the poor, or possible mint and cumin for the preacher?

Are you talking about Old Testament tithing or New Testament giving?

Either way, "collections" could be money or anything.  But the tithe was always FOOD from crops and animals, nothing else.

Tithing or giving was sanctified unto the Lord in my thought. Leviticus 27:16  And if a man shall sanctify unto the LORD some part of a field of his possession, then thy estimation shall be according to the seed thereof: an homer of barley seed shall be valued at fifty shekels of silver. If a person redeemed that given to the Lord, there was the twenty percent estimation value added.
 
Were there laws governing giving? What of that that was to be given unto parents before the Church? That's where love was applied instead of law such as the corbin vowed. To me you can call our giving anything that satisfies you; do you believe it should be done and why if I might ask?

Were there laws governing giving?

Yes, there were.  There was mandatory giving, and there was free-will giving.

Tithing or giving was sanctified unto the Lord in my thought.

ONLY the tithe defined in Leviticus 27:30-33 was a Holy tithe.  It was Holy because it came from the Holy land.

In Leviticus 27, Moses is speaking to those who inherited the promised land.  He is not speaking to anyone else.  

What does all that have to do with tithing today?  NOTHING.

The New Testament teaches generous, sacrificial giving, from the heart, according to our means. For some, $1 might be a sacrifice, while for others, even giving 50% of their income might not induce a sacrifice. In the Old Testament, ONLY the farmers tithed, and it was equal percentage (a tenth). The New Testament teaches the principle of equal sacrifice instead of equal percentage. Equal sacrifice is much harder to achieve, if not impossible, than giving ten percent.

It is a moral obligation for those attending church services to support the church in all ways, including financial.  I always have, but not by tithing.  I also help families that I know are in need.  I believe that God wants me to be a generous giver, and I happen to be a cheerful giver.  I never think about the percent of my income that I am giving.  I think about the amount that is NEEDED to be given.

Let me say it again,

There is nothing wrong with being a vegetarian Christian.

There is nothing wrong with being single (unmarried) Christian.

There is nothing wrong with giving 10% of my salary to God.

But the Bible clearly states in 1 Tim 4:1-3 that the idea of teaching vegetarianism or celibacy as a more spiritual way of living, the teaching becomes a doctrine of devils.  there is nothing wrong with the practice, and yet, there is everything wrong with the teaching.  Why is it wrong?  Because when people start adding laws that did not come from God, they are taking the place of God.  Tithing is like that.  There is nothing wrong with the practice.  But we should not be teaching it as a doctrine of God.  There is no law of tithing since the temple disappeared.  As a result, no one is robbing God of anything by not giving to him.  God is not after our wallets!  The love of money is the root of all evil.  There is no evil in God.   God is after our hearts.  The issue here is not whether we should give.  That is a no brainer.  The issue is:  Are we now under the law of tithing?  Because if we are not, people should stop preaching that.  Let's stop measuring spirituality relative to our checkbook.  God is more impressed with people that do not praise themselves, do not accuse others, and are not into the righteousness of man (self righteousness).

God rather surrounds himself with grateful sinners that do not tithe, than with self righteous saints that go around telling people that we are all called to be like them.

Two men went to pray.... One was religious and tithed, the other one was a compulsive sinner in Luke 18:9-14....  The compulsive sinner went to heaven, the tithe went to he'll.   There is nothing wrong with tithing, but boosting about it sort of ruins everything about it.

Peace

: Talking Donkey  Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 11:17:54
Let me say it again,

There is nothing wrong with being a vegetarian Christian.

There is nothing wrong with being single (unmarried) Christian.

There is nothing wrong with giving 10% of my salary to God.

But the Bible clearly states in 1 Tim 4:1-3 that the idea of teaching vegetarianism or celibacy as a more spiritual way of living, the teaching becomes a doctrine of devils.  there is nothing wrong with the practice, and yet, there is everything wrong with the teaching.  Why is it wrong?  Because when people start adding laws that did not come from God, they are taking the place of God.  Tithing is like that.  There is nothing wrong with the practice.  But we should not be teaching it as a doctrine of God.  There is no law of tithing since the temple disappeared.  As a result, no one is robbing God of anything by not giving to him.  God is not after our wallets!  The love of money is the root of all evil.  There is no evil in God.   God is after our hearts.  The issue here is not whether we should give.  That is a no brainer.  The issue is:  Are we now under the law of tithing?  Because if we are not, people should stop preaching that.  Let's stop measuring spirituality relative to our checkbook.  God is more impressed with people that do not praise themselves, do not accuse others, and are not into the righteousness of man (self righteousness).

God rather surrounds himself with grateful sinners that do not tithe, than with self righteous saints that go around telling people that we are all called to be like them.

Two men went to pray.... One was religious and tithed, the other one was a compulsive sinner in Luke 18:9-14....  The compulsive sinner went to heaven, the tithe went to he'll.   There is nothing wrong with tithing, but boosting about it sort of ruins everything about it.

Peace

God loves it when we recognize that He doesn't need our money---it's all His anyway, and we are grateful for Him being so generous as to allow us to keep 90% to use at our own discretion.

It is all for our betterment that He wants us to release our tight fists over our money.

No one is boasting about tithing---don't even go there. It is a spiritually discerned discipline and one that includes built-in promises of God. We can't have it better than that!

...we are grateful for Him being so generous as to allow us to keep 90% to use at our own discretion.

Sorry, but the 90% is also God's, and He never asked for 10% of your money or income.  It is ALL His.

That's the problem with so many tithers.  They think they can do what they want with the 90%.

God is MORE CONCERNED with what you do with the 90% than He is the 10%.  If you don't realize that, you've missed the whole teaching of finances in the New Testament.

I feel sorry for those who feel the 90% is to be used at your own discretion.  That is what I would call a lack of Biblical understanding.  You are the ones missing out on blessings.  May God show you the truth.

God is more generous than that.  Far more generous than that.  God allows us to keep it all, if that is what we want.  Here's is an example of someone that sold his farm.  Brought the mney to church, but kept a small part.  H gave beyond tithing.  Got killed anyway.  Notice all his money was declared by God to belong to Ananias.

Acts 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

His sin was lying to impress people.  When we give to impress people, we blew it.

Gd only wants the money that we want to give him.  No more.

Peace

Maybe I should have said, They think they can do what they want with the 90% AND STILL PLEASE GOD.

We have control of 100% of our money.  God wants us to be good stewards of 100% of it, not 10%.

: garyarnold  Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 12:56:16
Maybe I should have said, They think they can do what they want with the 90% AND STILL PLEASE GOD.

We have control of 100% of our money.  God wants us to be good stewards of 100% of it, not 10%.

Everything belongs to God---even our money. When we pay Him His 10%, He blesses the remaining 90%. That is good stewardship of His money.

: Talking Donkey  Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 12:46:59
God is more generous than that.  Far more generous than that.  God allows us to keep it all, if that is what we want.  Here's is an example of someone that sold his farm.  Brought the mney to church, but kept a small part.  H gave beyond tithing.  Got killed anyway.  Notice all his money was declared by God to belong to Ananias.

Acts 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

His sin was lying to impress people.  When we give to impress people, we blew it.

Gd only wants the money that we want to give him.  No more.

Peace

Do you know why Ananias and Sapphira were judged? Their gift was their own to give---they didn't have to give it. It was unconnected to a tithe. They could have kept 99% if they wanted and still blessed the church. Their lie was that they didn't keep any, even though they did and were within their rights to do so. Indeed, they wanted others to think they were more generous than they really were.

Tithing is not something people blab about doing---it is a private affair between God and the tither. He wants us to give, but He also is blessed by the tithe and He turns it around on the tither, promising protection from the enemy, and abundance of blessings---so much so that we cannot contain it.

: garyarnold  Wed Aug 31, 2011 - 19:35:46
1 Corinthian 16:1  Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.

Notice, FOR THE SAINTS.  The collection was for the poor, not for some building, or salaries, etc.

For some, they may have given a tenth.  But tenth is not mentioned or inferred.

And notice in Matthew 23:23, Jesus did NOT say they should be tithing on their INCOME from their professions as teachers and lawyers.  Rather, the tithe came from the herbs - FOOD, and not from their income.

Now you're being a little extreme....

For how in the world can the Body of Christ be effective if it's struggling just to keep the lights on?

How can there be mission work in the community or the nations of the world unless there are finances 

How can Christians come to the aid of disaster victims unless there are finances

This is just common sense

If you don't want to tithe fine

and If you don't want to tithe in the church you attend, maybe you should find a church that God is using to advance His Kingdom, where you can see His Handiwork being accomplished ...good ground

I don't believe you will be cursed for not tithing

But I don't see where it ceased from being practiced either

In fact if you read Acts carefully it really seems that the believers probably went above and beyond the tithe

Point is the Body has work to do and in the real world that work requires finances

: Lively Stone  Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 13:05:16
Everything belongs to God---even our money. When we pay Him His 10%, He blesses the remaining 90%. That is good stewardship of His money.

You keep saying that, but have no scripture to back it up.

: gospel  Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 13:32:00

: garyarnold  Wed Aug 31, 2011 - 19:35:46
1 Corinthian 16:1  Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.

Notice, FOR THE SAINTS.  The collection was for the poor, not for some building, or salaries, etc.

For some, they may have given a tenth.  But tenth is not mentioned or inferred.

And notice in Matthew 23:23, Jesus did NOT say they should be tithing on their INCOME from their professions as teachers and lawyers.  Rather, the tithe came from the herbs - FOOD, and not from their income.

Now you're being a little extreme....

For how in the world can the Body of Christ be effective if it's struggling just to keep the lights on?

How can there be mission work in the community or the nations of the world unless there are finances 

How can Christians come to the aid of disaster victims unless there are finances

This is just common sense

If you don't want to tithe fine

and If you don't want to tithe in the church you attend, maybe you should find a church that God is using to advance His Kingdom, where you can see His Handiwork being accomplished ...good ground

I don't believe you will be cursed for not tithing

But I don't see where it ceased from being practiced either

In fact if you read Acts carefully it really seems that the believers probably went above and beyond the tithe

Point is the Body has work to do and in the real world that work requires finances

AMEN!

But I don't see where it ceased from being practiced either

All you have to do is a little research on the history of tithing in the Christian Church.

IN PURSUIT OF THE ALMIGHT'S DOLLAR: A History of Money and American
Protestantism by James Hudnut-Beumler.

A HISTORY OF TITHES by the Rev. Henry William Clarke, B.A.

NO Christian Church taught anyone to tithe on their income until around 1870.

Instead of making claims, do the research as I have done.

In the first nine verses of Hebrews 7 the words tenth or tithes appears SEVEN TIMES.  The ONLY place in the Bible, after Calvary, that tithing appears is in Hebrews 7.

In Hebrews 7:5 we are told that Levi (the Levites) took the tithes under the law.  In Hebrews 7:12 we are told that when the priesthood changes, the law will change.  Hebrews 7:18 is telling us that Numbers 18 was disannulled.  Numbers 18 established the Levitical priesthood, and part of that establishing included tithing.  When the Levitical priesthood ended (at Calvary, or at least in the year 70AD when the temple was destroyed), all laws that established that priesthood were canceled.  If Numbers 18 wasn't canceled, we would still be under the Levitical priesthood.

Tithing is OUT.  It is an INFERIOR method of giving.  Move up to the New Testament.  Pray and seek the Spirit in your giving.  The Spirit may lead you to give far more than a tenth, OR maybe the Spirit will lead you to give far less than a tenth.

Under the Old Testament law, the poor were partially supported by the tithe.  They didn't pay the tithe, they benefited from it.  NOT THE WAY it is taught in Church.  Why?  Because money has corrupted the Church.  The devil loves it.

: garyarnold  Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 15:31:53
But I don't see where it ceased from being practiced either

All you have to do is a little research on the history of tithing in the Christian Church.

IN PURSUIT OF THE ALMIGHT'S DOLLAR: A History of Money and American
Protestantism by James Hudnut-Beumler.

A HISTORY OF TITHES by the Rev. Henry William Clarke, B.A.

NO Christian Church taught anyone to tithe on their income until around 1870.

Instead of making claims, do the research as I have done.

In the first nine verses of Hebrews 7 the words tenth or tithes appears SEVEN TIMES.  The ONLY place in the Bible, after Calvary, that tithing appears is in Hebrews 7.

In Hebrews 7:5 we are told that Levi (the Levites) took the tithes under the law.  In Hebrews 7:12 we are told that when the priesthood changes, the law will change.  Hebrews 7:18 is telling us that Numbers 18 was disannulled.  Numbers 18 established the Levitical priesthood, and part of that establishing included tithing.  When the Levitical priesthood ended (at Calvary, or at least in the year 70AD when the temple was destroyed), all laws that established that priesthood were canceled.  If Numbers 18 wasn't canceled, we would still be under the Levitical priesthood.

Tithing is OUT.  It is an INFERIOR method of giving.  Move up to the New Testament.  Pray and seek the Spirit in your giving.  The Spirit may lead you to give far more than a tenth, OR maybe the Spirit will lead you to give far less than a tenth.

Under the Old Testament law, the poor were partially supported by the tithe.  They didn't pay the tithe, they benefited from it.  NOT THE WAY it is taught in Church.  Why?  Because money has corrupted the Church.  The devil loves it.

That is false and convenient to your personal opinion.

That is false and convenient to your personal opinion.

Be specific.  What is false?

All you have given is personal opinion.  I have given scripture.

Now, what did I write that is false?  Give me a chance to either correct my mistakes, or prove that I am correct.

This thread is not about being good stewards.  This thread is about the lie going around that the Christian church is under a man-made law of 10% of our salary belonging to God to the point that if we keep it, it means we are robbing God and falling under a curse.

There is no verse to back that up.  They have to resort to: "I got a Rhema word!  God told me the tithing  law is in effect today and is true!"

It comes down to this... Who do you thrust?  To make people feel more generous at the time of giving?  Who do you thrust?  Do you believe telling them they are under the tithing law will cause them to be more generous than if we let the Holy Spirit tell them the truth and count on the love of God to do it?

If we count on God, he is far more powerful to move his people through love, than the law can move them through the fear of the law.

Peace

If we count on God, he is far more powerful to move his people through love, than the law can move them through the fear of the law.

Exactly.  And that is why pastors like John MacArthur do so well.

: Talking Donkey  Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 17:08:32
This thread is not about being good stewards.  This thread is about the lie going around that the Christian church is under a man-made law of 10% of our salary belonging to God to the point that if we keep it, it means we are robbing God and falling under a curse.

There is no verse to back that up.  They have to resort to: "I got a Rhema word!  God told me the tithing  law is in effect today and is true!"

It comes down to this... Who do you thrust?  To make people feel more generous at the time of giving?  Who do you thrust?  Do you believe telling them they are under the tithing law will cause them to be more generous than if we let the Holy Spirit tell them the truth and count on the love of God to do it?

If we count on God, he is far more powerful to move his people through love, than the law can move them through the fear of the law.

Peace

Tithing is all about being a good steward of what is God's.

Tithing is all about being a good steward of what is God's.

Sounds like a broken record.

: garyarnold  Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 23:25:31
Tithing is all about being a good steward of what is God's.

Sounds like a broken record.

The truth is like that for some when they deny it.

: Lively Stone  Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 23:27:48

The truth is like that for some when they deny it.

You go ahead and think you are being a good steward by giving a tenth of your income.

I, on the other hand, will honor God by trying to be a good steward with 100% of my income.  God blesses all 100% of what He gives to me, NOT 90% after I give a tenth to Him.

God wants ME, not my money.  And He certainly does not want me to be giving money to any local church that teaches the false doctrine of tithing on one's income.  Giving money to false preachers is a sign of poor stewardship.

: garyarnold  Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 23:44:48

: Lively Stone  Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 23:27:48

The truth is like that for some when they deny it.

You go ahead and think you are being a good steward by giving a tenth of your income.

I, on the other hand, will honor God by trying to be a good steward with 100% of my income.  God blesses all 100% of what He gives to me, NOT 90% after I give a tenth to Him.

God wants ME, not my money.  And He certainly does not want me to be giving money to any local church that teaches the false doctrine of tithing on one's income.  Giving money to false preachers is a sign of poor stewardship.

Being a good steward one understands that all is His and we manage it according to God's principles. We do what pleases Him and He is pleased to bless it.

Where is the verse that says that to be a good stewart, people have to give at least 10% of their salary?

Where does the Bible define a good stewart as those that pass the 10% bar?

I know of two people that believe the tithing law passed away, one gives 9% of his salary to church, the other one gives 18% of his salary to Church.  Which of the two is a good Stewart?  I believe both are good starts and neither one is goes by the 10% rule.

Stop preaching the message that to be holy and spiritual, we need to believe there is a law of tithing in effect today.  That is nonsense.

Rom 12:4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

That passage says it is wrong to judge all the members based on how well we do in one gift.  There is such a thing as the gift of giving.  That should be clear to any church treasurer.

Peace

There is no message that to be holy and spiritual one must tithe. No one should be giving or tithing to get. To say that is being preached by anyone here is a total fabrication, and who knows where in oneself that comes?

Seems to me it is hypocritical to judge those who tithe with the same broad brush as you think tithers judge you---but don't.

Yes, there is a spiritual gift of giving generously. Church treasurers are not the only ones who can see it.

: Lively Stone  Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 12:22:44
There is no message that to be holy and spiritual one must tithe. No one should be giving or tithing to get.

Seems to me it is hypocritical to judge those who tithe with the same broad brush as you think tithers judge you---but don't.

No?
Those that tithe trust God
Tithing is about being good Stewarts
Those that tithe are the ones that know God owns it all
Those that do not tithe are missing a blessing
Etc....

And yes, it is hypocritical indeed, the difference is that people with good character admit they did wrong, and the people with bad character will never say..... My bad.  I admit it.  I am a hypocrite.

Talking donkey.

I think each of us knows when we have given as God would desire, whether it is 5% or 15%. It isn't for others to judge, and I don't believe it is a quid pro quo deal from God, but I do believe he blesses cheerful giving. I personally use 10% as a goal because left unto myself, I would be cheerful with giving a whole lot less. I think it ought to be sacrificial. If 10% is not sacrificial to me, testing me and my dependence on God, I would probably want to re-evaluate. Everybody else has to reconcile their own giving. I believe we ought to give with purpose and forethought, setting aside our portion to God first instead of IF there is any money left.

Plus if a person gives seemingly generous of his money and is miserly or stingy with his time, that might be a problem.

: Talking Donkey  Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 12:30:26

: Lively Stone  Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 12:22:44
There is no message that to be holy and spiritual one must tithe. No one should be giving or tithing to get.

Seems to me it is hypocritical to judge those who tithe with the same broad brush as you think tithers judge you---but don't.

No?
Those that tithe trust God
Tithing is about being good Stewarts
Those that tithe are the ones that know God ones it all
Those that do not tithe are missing a blessing
Etc....

And yes, it is hypocritical indeed, the difference is that people with good character admit they did wrong, and the people with bad character will never say..... My bad.  I admit it.  I am a hypocrite.

Talking donkey.

Tithers trust God with everything---it shows God that. Tithers are good stewards of what God enables them to receive monetarily. Those who tithe are understanding that God owns it all. Those who reject tithing are indeed missing out on the blessings associated with tithing. If one desires them, then they need to tithe.

Non-tithers are the only people who complain.

When I was a non-tither, the only thing I complained about was not being able to tithe, thinking myself a second class Christian. I was wrong. I was just as spiritually-minded, holy to God and was moving forward in my walk with Jesus Christ. After we began to tithe, we began to see definite changes in our financial picture and stability. Debt that was pretty bad was wiped out within 2 years, and financially we saw great increase. It has since waned in income, but the stability persists, knowing that every need we have---even sudden expensive needs---are completely taken care of by God's promised provision.  Because we have learned to trust God with all our money and lives, we do not succumb to worry but immediately know that He will provide...and He does.

: Lively Stone  Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 12:40:16

: Talking Donkey  Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 12:30:26

: Lively Stone  Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 12:22:44
There is no message that to be holy and spiritual one must tithe. No one should be giving or tithing to get.

Seems to me it is hypocritical to judge those who tithe with the same broad brush as you think tithers judge you---but don't.

No?
Those that tithe trust God
Tithing is about being good Stewarts
Those that tithe are the ones that know God ones it all
Those that do not tithe are missing a blessing
Etc....

And yes, it is hypocritical indeed, the difference is that people with good character admit they did wrong, and the people with bad character will never say..... My bad.  I admit it.  I am a hypocrite.

Talking donkey.

Tithers trust God with everything---it shows God that. Tithers are good stewards of what God enables them to receive monetarily. Those who tithe are understanding that God owns it all. Those who reject tithing are indeed missing out on the blessings associated with tithing. If one desires them, then they need to tithe.

Non-tithers are the only people who complain.

When I was a non-tither, the only thing I complained about was not being able to tithe, thinking myself a second class Christian. I was wrong. I was just as spiritually-minded, holy to God and was moving forward in my walk with Jesus Christ. After we began to tithe, we began to see definite changes in our financial picture and stability. Debt that was pretty bad was wiped out within 2 years, and financially we saw great increase. It has since waned in income, but the stability persists, knowing that every need we have---even sudden expensive needs---are completely taken care of by God's promised provision.  Because we have learned to trust God with all our money and lives, we do not succumb to worry but immediately know that He will provide...and He does.

There it is in a nutshell....very, very good Lively

Very well stated!

Manna!

: Lively Stone  Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 12:22:44
There is no message that to be holy and spiritual one must tithe. No one should be giving or tithing to get. To say that is being preached by anyone here is a total fabrication, and who knows where in oneself that comes?

Yet, I quote from YOU:

We are to give as God leads, but tithing isn't giving. We give a gift and we can be as liberal as we choose, but we pay a tithe.

If it is paid, that means it is an obligation.  To me that infers you are treating tithing as being a law for Christians.

Giving is separate from the tithe. We are to do that, too.

Again, infers you think you are under the law.

It is the mark of absolute trust, as God says, to tithe.

So many Christians today fail to realize that God has asked and even commanded them to give and to tithe!

There we go - putting us under the law.  If we are commanded to tithe, it is a law.

God says we rob Him when we withhold from Him what is His.

Again, treating it as a law for Christians.

Those who are ignorant of tithing cannot be held accountable for it, and they are included with the disobedient in not receiving the special promises of God concerning the tithe.

If it is disobedient to not tithe, then tithing is a command, or law.  What happened to grace?

Those who make the loudest noise against tithing aren't trusting Him fully. Tithing is the ONE thing that God asks us to test Him in. Test Him and find Him faithful!

Wanna truly worship God? Tithe!

We were living under a curse for not tithing, under a great deal of debt and trouble. That trouble was certainly not the blessing of God! Within a few months of beginning to tithe, we were completely out of debt.

Do you not believe God's Word in Galatians 3:13 "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us...

Let's look at Malachi 3. First, who is God speaking to – the priests or the people?
We need to study the entire Book of Malachi rather than take a few verses out of context.

By the time we get to verse 6 in chapter 1, we see it is the priests that are being addressed at that point.

In both chapters 1 and 2 of Malachi there is a conversation going on between God and the priests. Every time the word "you" is used, it is referring to the priests. Chapter 3 continues with this conversation. In verse 5 God says "And I will come near to you to judgment....."  In the Old Testament, during this period of time and generally speaking, only the priests could get near to God. It is only in the New Testament that born again believers, you and I, can get close to God. So up to chapter 3 verse 5, God is speaking to the priests. The word "you" is still referring to the priests. There is nothing in the scripture to indicate this changes when you get to verse 8. But that's not all.

Read Numbers 18:29-30 and then read Malachi 1:14. Those verses explain robbing God of the offerings. The PRIESTS, not the people, robbed God of the offering by giving to God the worst instead of the best.

In Nehemiah 13 we are told that the priests stole the Levites portion of the tithe; therefore, they had no food to eat at the temple, and they went back to their own fields.

Therefore, taking the Levites portion of the tithe is the robbing God of the tithe. Or to put it another way, THE LEVITES WERE ROBBED. God said He was robbed because the tithe did not go where God directed.

Next, in Malachi 3:10 God says to bring all the tithes to the storehouse. The people took the tithes to the Levites who lived in the Levitical cities, not to the temple. The Levites took the required tithe of the tithe to the temple. (See Nehemiah 10:37-38) Only those tithes ever made it to the temple. The priests then took those tithes to the storehouse. It only makes sense if God is speaking to the priests in this verse.

Since in Numbers 18 God makes it perfectly clear that the tithe belongs to Him, and He gave it to the Levites, anyone who takes God's tithe to their local church must also be robbing God since the Levites are not the ones getting it.

I see no way around this. Either the tithe ended per Hebrews 7:18, OR those who take God's tithe to their local church must be robbing God since God gave clear instructions where to take His tithe. There is nothing in God's Word to show that God ever changed those instructions. Therefore, the only conclusion I can reach is that taking a tithe to your local church is NOT paying the tithe to God. It is giving it to man. Nowhere in God's Word does He give permission for the Christian Church to receive His tithe.

If Malachi 3 is binding on Christians, IT MUST THEN BE A SIN AGAINST GOD to take God's tithe to your local church. IT MUST THEN BE A SIN for any pastor to accept God's tithe.

: garyarnold  Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 13:17:56
Let's look at Malachi 3. First, who is God speaking to – the priests or the people?
We need to study the entire Book of Malachi rather than take a few verses out of context.

By the time we get to verse 6 in chapter 1, we see it is the priests that are being addressed at that point.

In both chapters 1 and 2 of Malachi there is a conversation going on between God and the priests. Every time the word "you" is used, it is referring to the priests. Chapter 3 continues with this conversation. In verse 5 God says "And I will come near to you to judgment....."  In the Old Testament, during this period of time and generally speaking, only the priests could get near to God. It is only in the New Testament that born again believers, you and I, can get close to God. So up to chapter 3 verse 5, God is speaking to the priests. The word "you" is still referring to the priests. There is nothing in the scripture to indicate this changes when you get to verse 8. But that's not all.

Read Numbers 18:29-30 and then read Malachi 1:14. Those verses explain robbing God of the offerings. The PRIESTS, not the people, robbed God of the offering by giving to God the worst instead of the best.

In Nehemiah 13 we are told that the priests stole the Levites portion of the tithe; therefore, they had no food to eat at the temple, and they went back to their own fields.

Therefore, taking the Levites portion of the tithe is the robbing God of the tithe. Or to put it another way, THE LEVITES WERE ROBBED. God said He was robbed because the tithe did not go where God directed.

Next, in Malachi 3:10 God says to bring all the tithes to the storehouse. The people took the tithes to the Levites who lived in the Levitical cities, not to the temple. The Levites took the required tithe of the tithe to the temple. (See Nehemiah 10:37-38) Only those tithes ever made it to the temple. The priests then took those tithes to the storehouse. It only makes sense if God is speaking to the priests in this verse.

Since in Numbers 18 God makes it perfectly clear that the tithe belongs to Him, and He gave it to the Levites, anyone who takes God's tithe to their local church must also be robbing God since the Levites are not the ones getting it.

I see no way around this. Either the tithe ended per Hebrews 7:18, OR those who take God's tithe to their local church must be robbing God since God gave clear instructions where to take His tithe. There is nothing in God's Word to show that God ever changed those instructions. Therefore, the only conclusion I can reach is that taking a tithe to your local church is NOT paying the tithe to God. It is giving it to man. Nowhere in God's Word does He give permission for the Christian Church to receive His tithe.

If Malachi 3 is binding on Christians, IT MUST THEN BE A SIN AGAINST GOD to take God's tithe to your local church. IT MUST THEN BE A SIN for any pastor to accept God's tithe.

Then don't do it...the rest of us will bear the brunt of the financial burden for missions to Africa, Asia, South America, The Caribbeans, the prisons and the lean mean streets of America

You can tithe prayers...just by praying for us that the tithe is being used wisely and effectively in the forwarding of the Kingdom and that God's Will is being done reaching the lost and the downtrodden with The Love of God through Christ Jesus

Hows that?  ::shrug::

: gospel  Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 14:04:53
You can tithe prayers...just by praying for us that the tithe is being used wisely and effectively in the forwarding of the Kingdom and that God's Will is being done reaching the lost and the downtrodden with The Love of God through Christ Jesus

Hows that?  ::shrug::

My prayers are that God show you that tithing is not what He wants or expects from Christians.

Free-will giving, or sacrificial giving is what the New Testament teaches for Christians.  There is no percentage.  We are to seek the Spirit for our giving as well as all other areas of our finances and our lives.

I have no problem for those who wish to give a tenth of their income to the church or anywhere else.  I have a problem calling it a tithing as it has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Biblical tithe.  Calling it tithing confuses those who can't distinguish between the Biblical tithe and free-will giving.

: garyarnold  Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 14:12:32

: gospel  Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 14:04:53
You can tithe prayers...just by praying for us that the tithe is being used wisely and effectively in the forwarding of the Kingdom and that God's Will is being done reaching the lost and the downtrodden with The Love of God through Christ Jesus

Hows that?  ::shrug::

My prayers are that God show you that tithing is not what He wants or expects from Christians.

Free-will giving, or sacrificial giving is what the New Testament teaches for Christians.  There is no percentage.  We are to seek the Spirit for our giving as well as all other areas of our finances and our lives.

I have no problem for those who wish to give a tenth of their income to the church or anywhere else.  I have a problem calling it a tithing as it has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Biblical tithe.  Calling it tithing confuses those who can't distinguish between the Biblical tithe and free-will giving.

How about tithing, er-r-r I mean giving some time towards praying that the will of God to reach the lost and downtrodden is STILL being accomplished through what we THINK is tithing

After all those of us who THINK we are tithing are certainly not tithing to Satan

: gospel  Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 14:22:50
After all those of us who THINK we are tithing are certainly not tithing to Satan

You may or may not be right.  God isn't the author of confusion, yet there is a lot of confusion on the topic of tithing.  I personally know a few pastors who teach tithing KNOWING that their teaching goes against New Testament teaching.  They do it in order to BRING IN MORE MONEY.  That, my friend, is nothing but Satan's tricks.

Pastors who teach tithing lack faith that God will provide for His Church.  They are putting their trust in man to tithe rather than God.  Those pastors will tell YOU to tithe and for YOU to put your trust in God that He will provide.  Yet THEY don't put their trust in God to provide for them and the Church.

: garyarnold  Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 14:12:32

: gospel  Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 14:04:53
You can tithe prayers...just by praying for us that the tithe is being used wisely and effectively in the forwarding of the Kingdom and that God's Will is being done reaching the lost and the downtrodden with The Love of God through Christ Jesus

Hows that?  ::shrug::

My prayers are that God show you that tithing is not what He wants or expects from Christians.

Free-will giving, or sacrificial giving is what the New Testament teaches for Christians.  There is no percentage.  We are to seek the Spirit for our giving as well as all other areas of our finances and our lives.

I have no problem for those who wish to give a tenth of their income to the church or anywhere else.  I have a problem calling it a tithing as it has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Biblical tithe.  Calling it tithing confuses those who can't distinguish between the Biblical tithe and free-will giving.

The meaning of the word, 'tithe' is 'tenth'. I have no problem with that. We tithe and we also give---two separate acts.

: Lively Stone  Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 15:25:35
The meaning of the word, 'tithe' is 'tenth'. I have no problem with that. We tithe and we also give---two separate acts.

The HEBREW word translated into "tithe" in the Old Testament means a tenth.

HOWEVER, God defined His tithe in Leviticus 27:30-33, and in His definition He tells us what tenth He claims as His.  Not just a tenth of anything.

So can follow the Hebrew definition, or the definition in a modern-day dictionary, OR you can follow THE LORD'S DEFINITION.

I choose to follow the Lord's definition as as not to confuse what man is doing today with what God commanded.

YOU are not using God's definition, but still claim what you are doing is commanded by God.  YOU are CHANGING GOD'S WORD.

: garyarnold  Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 16:13:34

: Lively Stone  Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 15:25:35
The meaning of the word, 'tithe' is 'tenth'. I have no problem with that. We tithe and we also give---two separate acts.

The HEBREW word translated into "tithe" in the Old Testament means a tenth.

HOWEVER, God defined His tithe in Leviticus 27:30-33, and in His definition He tells us what tenth He claims as His.  Not just a tenth of anything.

So can follow the Hebrew definition, or the definition in a modern-day dictionary, OR you can follow THE LORD'S DEFINITION.

I choose to follow the Lord's definition as as not to confuse what man is doing today with what God commanded.

YOU are not using God's definition, but still claim what you are doing is commanded by God.  YOU are CHANGING GOD'S WORD.

No. The command has not been rescinded or abolished. Through Jesus Christ it is established, and through it flows His life and His supernatural provision. He is the God-of-More-Than-Enough.

: Lively Stone  Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 16:17:53
No. The command has not been rescinded or abolished. Through Jesus Christ it is established, and through it flows His life and His supernatural provision. He is the God-of-More-Than-Enough.

Then please QUOTE THE SCRIPTURE where you find the command.  Otherwise, I suggest you stop spreading all the garbage.

Here are the 3 commands:

THE FIRST TITHE
Leviticus 27:30-33 defines this tithe as a tenth of crops and animals in herds and flocks.
Numbers 18 gives the ordinances, or instructions, for this tithe, and commands this tithe be taken to the Levites.
Purpose of this tithe:  to support the Levitical Priesthood.

SECOND TITHE
Deuteronomy 14:22-27: aka The Festival Tithe - a tenth of crops, plus add to that the firstborn animals, and take for the yearly feast.
Purpose of this tithe:  "that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always

: garyarnold  Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 17:22:20

: Lively Stone  Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 16:17:53
No. The command has not been rescinded or abolished. Through Jesus Christ it is established, and through it flows His life and His supernatural provision. He is the God-of-More-Than-Enough.

Then please QUOTE THE SCRIPTURE where you find the command.  Otherwise, I suggest you stop spreading all the garbage.

Here are the 3 commands:

THE FIRST TITHE
Leviticus 27:30-33 defines this tithe as a tenth of crops and animals in herds and flocks.
Numbers 18 gives the ordinances, or instructions, for this tithe, and commands this tithe be taken to the Levites.
Purpose of this tithe:  to support the Levitical Priesthood.

SECOND TITHE
Deuteronomy 14:22-27: aka The Festival Tithe - a tenth of crops, plus add to that the firstborn animals, and take for the yearly feast.
Purpose of this tithe:  "that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always

I agree with God in all mentions of the tithe. It was established in men's hearts to tithe to God before the law came, and it continues to this day.

There is no ignorance in me of Scripture, nor of God, so your accusation falls pretty flat.

: Lively Stone  Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 18:30:33
It was established in men's hearts to tithe to God before the law came, and it continues to this day.

Oh, really?  Does the scripture say that God put it in Abram's heart to tithe?  Are you aware that Biblical historians say that during the days of Abraham it was CUSTOM to give a tenth of war spoils to the king?

You tithing teachers are all the same.  You just make it up to fit your agenda.

: garyarnold  Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 18:49:23

: Lively Stone  Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 18:30:33
It was established in men's hearts to tithe to God before the law came, and it continues to this day.

Oh, really?  Does the scripture say that God put it in Abram's heart to tithe?  Are you aware that Biblical historians say that during the days of Abraham it was CUSTOM to give a tenth of war spoils to the king?

You tithing teachers are all the same.  You just make it up to fit your agenda.

Yes, really.

I am not a 'tithing teacher', but I am a child of the King. I don't make up things, nor do I have any agenda. It's not my thread.

I share what God has lovingly and patiently shown me. It is yours to choose to reject it or receive it, but to criticize and mock is not of God and He will deal with that nonsense.

: garyarnold  Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 18:49:23

: Lively Stone  Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 18:30:33
It was established in men's hearts to tithe to God before the law came, and it continues to this day.

Oh, really?  Does the scripture say that God put it in Abram's heart to tithe?  Are you aware that Biblical historians say that during the days of Abraham it was CUSTOM to give a tenth of war spoils to the king?

You tithing teachers are all the same.  You just make it up to fit your agenda.

So now just to make a point you're discounting Melchizedek?

If so this is a good time to suggest that you should probably consider taking a break
and slow your roll  ::rolling::

Seriously!

Hebrews 7:3 Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever.

So now just to make a point you're discounting Melchizedek?

I have discounted Melchizedek.  I merely said that it was custom to give a tenth of war spoils to the king.  The Word, itself, doesn't tell us WHY Abram gave the tenth.  In fact, under the law, God didn't require a tenth of war spoils to be given or paid.  So what Abram did wasn't even carried forward into the law.

You want to take a ONE-TIME recorded event and say that it was established in men's hearts to tithe to God before the law.

Isn't it odd that even though Abram gave a tenth directly to Melchizedek, the king/priest, that some Christians think they can give directly to God by giving it to their pastor?

I find it quite offensive that pastors have appointed themselves to be the receiver of what belongs to God.  After all, the pastor says the tithe belongs to God.  Then he appoints himself to receive the tithe!!!

God never gave any pastor or church permission to receive his tithe.  God commanded His tithe be taken to the Levites, FOREVER, in Numbers 18.

Since the tithe belongs to God, if a pastor accepts it isn't he stealing it from God?

Hebrews 7:7 (KJV)  "And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.

: garyarnold  Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 19:24:42
So now just to make a point you're discounting Melchizedek?

I have discounted Melchizedek.  I merely said that it was custom to give a tenth of war spoils to the king.  The Word, itself, doesn't tell us WHY Abram gave the tenth.  In fact, under the law, God didn't require a tenth of war spoils to be given or paid.  So what Abram did wasn't even carried forward into the law.

You want to take a ONE-TIME recorded event and say that it was established in men's hearts to tithe to God before the law.

Dear Sir ....Melchizedek is a type of Christ or hadn't you noticed that in your zeal to debunk the tithe

Hebrews 7:2 and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, his name means "king of righteousness"; then also, "king of Salem" means "king of peace.

: gospel  Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 19:27:52

Dear Sir ....Melchizedek is a type of Christ or hadn't you noticed that in your zeal to debunk the tithe

The historical Melchizedek was not THE Son of God, but was "made LIKE the Son of God.

Any list of negatives concerning the priest Melchizedek are fabrications to further some agenda.

Tithing on one's income and giving it to the church is a fabrication to further some agenda.

This is NO scripture that supports tithing on one's income, nor is there any scripture that supports taking God's tithe to the church.

: garyarnold  Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 22:03:55
Tithing on one's income and giving it to the church is a fabrication to further some agenda.

This is NO scripture that supports tithing on one's income, nor is there any scripture that supports taking God's tithe to the church.

No, it is what God has asked. All scripture supports it. No scripture denounces it. the local church is the storehouse of today---where we receive our spiritual food.

Tithing is something we do in the natural that is seen by God in the spiritual realm, and the benefits are both natural and spiritual.

: Lively Stone  Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 22:15:02
No, it is what God has asked.

It's all in your head, and I have indeed given scripture that denounces it.  You just don't accept it.  You have been brainwashed.

All this back and forth and you STILL don't have any scripture to support your position.

If you want to keep your head buried in the sand, so be it.

: garyarnold  Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 22:56:35

: Lively Stone  Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 22:15:02
No, it is what God has asked.

It's all in your head, and I have indeed given scripture that denounces it.  You just don't accept it.  You have been brainwashed.

All this back and forth and you STILL don't have any scripture to support your position.

If you want to keep your head buried in the sand, so be it.

There is nothing in Scripture that denounces tithing for the believer.

I have given scripture in my past posts, and I am not going to be harassed for more. I can hold my head up high knowing that my husband and I are obedient to our King. He is pleased, and that is all that matters.

: Lively Stone  Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 19:39:33
Any list of negatives concerning the priest Melchizedek are fabrications to further some agenda.

Sad isn't it?  ::frown::

For the sole purpose of denouncing tithing they have to denigrate Melchizedek in the process...

Its seems to me that what we have here is a root of bitterness

: gospel  Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 01:41:20

: Lively Stone  Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 19:39:33
Any list of negatives concerning the priest Melchizedek are fabrications to further some agenda.

Sad isn't it?  ::frown::

For the sole purpose of denouncing tithing they have to denigrate Melchizedek in the process...

Its seems to me that what we have here is a root of bitterness

...and stiff necks.

I think I will take a different approach today.  If you cant win, join them (so goes the saying).  So, let me preach giving for a moment.  This is what I would say, if I wanted to encourage someone to give more.

1.  I will quote 2Cor 9:6-7 telling them that God will bless them in accordance to their sowing.  The more seed they sow, the greater the harvest.  I will make sure they hear verse 7 where it says we are at liberty to do with our money as we wish.  I will tell them, Do not give grudginly, give what you really want to give.

2.  I will encourage them by sharing with them examples in my life on how God blessed my family in proportion to our giving.  The scary part of this is that it is likely that I will end up praising myself and that is bad (Prov 27:2).

3.  I will mention that the practice of tithing (not the law) existed since before the law and that we need to draw near to God first with our faith, and then God will show himself more real to us.

4.  I will use the example of the parable of the sower, telling them:  You know that before farmers put the seed on the ground, they plow the field, right?  You know it is not wise for a farmer to spread the seed over rocks and thorn bushes without plowing the field first to remove them first, right?  And when they nod their heads in agreement, I will tell them, God is the same.  It is wrong to put the seed of the word of God (Mat 13 defines the seed as the word) in the hearts of the people without first plowing the field and removing the rocks and the thorn bushes first.  The Bible says that the love of money is the root of all evil and because of that, many have pierced themselves with many sorrows.  The Bible says that the thorn bushes in the parable of the sower are the deceitfulness of riches.  That is why I am talking to you today about money, because unless I tell you about the evil of loving money I will be wasting my time trying to get the seed of the gospel among the thorn bushes of the heart of the people.  Thorns pierce people and cause pain.

1 Tim 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Mt 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

==================================

That's what I would do.

The one thing I will never do, if to try to get them to give through guilt.  I know no one here is purposely trying to get people motivated through guilt, I know that.  But to me, when we try to do it by quoting the law, we are doing it unconsciously.  The law brings guilt to those breaking the law they believe is in effect.  Telling them there is a law of tithing today is not true and it is the wrong vehicle to motivate people.  Where the spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.  Trying to get people to change for the better using the law does not work, we tried that, it is called the Old Testament (Heb 10:1).

By the way, there are 20 other Biblical reasons to encourage people to give even beyond 10 % without having to quote a non existent law or threatening people with a curse if they do not give 10$ of their salaries.

I want to go on record now: Lord, every iddle word spoken against me in this thread I declare it now forgiven in the name of Jesus.  I am asking you Lord, not to mention it in the day of judgement because I have forgiven them all, whether they repent or not is irrelevant, I have forgiven them in Jesus name. Help me Lord to discuss doctrine without praising myself or accusing others, in Jesus' name, Amen.

Peace

Giving is good. No one argues with giving.



As for forgiveness, I forgive the many fierce and accusatory words and attitudes that have come across from anti-tithers. There needs to be repentance to God for those as well...unless they are repented of, no forgiveness can be granted.

Tithing is one of those rules and regulations laid down in the Law.  I am really surprised to find some who preach hot and heavy against the Christian's need to hold to or keep the Law and yet consider tithing as something the Christian is bound to do.  Some things are just wierd.

: Jimmy  Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 10:35:10
Tithing is one of those rules and regulations laid down in the Law.  I am really surprised to find some who preach hot and heavy against the Christian's need to hold to or keep the Law and yet consider tithing as something the Christian is bound to do.  Some things are just weird.

That's because tithing came long before the law and it continues outside of it.

: Lively Stone  Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 10:49:01

That's because tithing came long before the law and it continues outside of it.

Abram gave a tenth of war spoils that did NOT even belong to him.  AND, he kept nothing for himself.

No one follows Abram's one-time recorded tithe.

: garyarnold  Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 10:58:10

: Lively Stone  Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 10:49:01

That's because tithing came long before the law and it continues outside of it.

Abram gave a tenth of war spoils that did NOT even belong to him.  AND, he kept nothing for himself.

No one follows Abram's one-time recorded tithe.

We still tithe according to the principle and practice laid down in the word. Jacob also tithed---before the law! It is so telling that these men loved God and walked with Him in such a way that they were open handed with their possessions and their finances---generous to lay down their wealth before the Lord, knowing that He is their utter source of all they possess, and gain.

: garyarnold  Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 10:58:10

: Lively Stone  Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 10:49:01

That's because tithing came long before the law and it continues outside of it.

Abram gave a tenth of war spoils that did NOT even belong to him.  AND, he kept nothing for himself.

No one follows Abram's one-time recorded tithe.

Yes, the account of Melchizedek and Abram is an historical record of an event in history.  Even though it is one of monumental significance it is not a giving of a command to anyone.  The tithe was established as a part of the Law in Leviticus 27.

: Lively Stone  Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 11:06:25

: garyarnold  Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 10:58:10

: Lively Stone  Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 10:49:01

That's because tithing came long before the law and it continues outside of it.

Abram gave a tenth of war spoils that did NOT even belong to him.  AND, he kept nothing for himself.

No one follows Abram's one-time recorded tithe.

We still tithe according to the principle and practice laid down in the word. Jacob also tithed---before the law! It is so telling that these men loved God and walked with Him in such a way that they were open handed with their possessions and their finances---generous to lay down their wealth before the Lord, knowing that He is their utter source of all they possess, and gain.

There were sacrifices offered before the law also, but we no longer do that either.  If any wish to give an offering of their money, goods, or whatever to God through their congregation, a tenth part is probably a good place to start.  But the institution of the tithe as some sort of moral, religious, or other obligation is simply not in the spirit of any of the NT teachings.

As Jesus Christ is of the order of Melchizedek, our high priest forever, He is more than worthy to receive a tenth off the top---representing my acknowledgment that He is the Lord of EVERYTHING, along with my gratitude and my worship. He is worthy to receive gifts also.

No amount of spinning on the part of anti-tithers can dissuade those who tithe to stop, for we are obeying God in it, and pleasing Him, and His precious promises are being realized in it.

: Lively Stone  Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 11:06:25
Jacob also tithed---before the law!

There is absolutely NO scripture telling us that Jacob ever tithed.  Why must these false claims continue?

Gen. 28:12–16; 20-22
12 As he slept, he dreamed of a stairway that reached from the earth up to heaven. And he saw the angels of God going up and down the stairway.

13 At the top of the stairway stood the Lord, and he said, "I am the Lord, the God of your grandfather Abraham, and the God of your father, Isaac. The ground you are lying on belongs to you. I am giving it to you and your descendants. 14 Your descendants will be as numerous as the dust of the earth! They will spread out in all directions—to the west and the east, to the north and the south. And all the families of the earth will be blessed through you and your descendants. 15 What's more, I am with you, and I will protect you wherever you go. One day I will bring you back to this land. I will not leave you until I have finished giving you everything I have promised you.

This promise to tithe was not to be a onetime event.

The promise to tithe WAS IN FACT a one-time event.

Because he was aware of God's requirement to tithe and knew tithing was an act of worship.

You are making assumptions not supported by scripture.  If Jacob was aware of God's so-called requirement to tithe, I must assume that Jacob would have given the tenth with NO conditions.

Of course it was a voluntary act on Jacob's part.
You just said that Jacob was aware of God's REQUIREMENT to tithe.  Now you say it was voluntary.  You contradict yourself.

There is no Scripture that states Israel did not tithe. To say this proves tithing was not a law is an example of determining a doctrine by means of omission.

You aren't consistent.  You have a double standard.  You have previously said that there is no scripture that denounces tithing and draw the conclusion that it must still be commanded.

There is no scripture that says Jacob tithed.

In one sentence you say tithing is voluntary.  In another sentence you say God has commanded us to tithe.

You are putting yourself under the law.  Same as you can voluntarily follow man's laws, or you can ignore them and suffer the consequences.  Since you believe you and your husband were financially cursed while not tithing, you have put yourself under the law; therefore, you fall from grace and will be cursed by the law.

Being under grace doesn't mean that now we voluntarily follow the laws.  
You have taken God's THREE commands to tithe and REDUCED THEM down to ONE, have CHANGED what is tithed, and have CHANGED what to do with the tithe.  You are following NONE of God's tithing commands given in His Word.  You certainly aren't fooling God.  You aren't even fooling me.  But apparently you are fooling yourself.

: garyarnold  Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 11:59:58
This promise to tithe was not to be a onetime event.

The promise to tithe WAS IN FACT a one-time event.

Because he was aware of God's requirement to tithe and knew tithing was an act of worship.

You are making assumptions not supported by scripture.  If Jacob was aware of God's so-called requirement to tithe, I must assume that Jacob would have given the tenth with NO conditions.

Of course it was a voluntary act on Jacob's part.
You just said that Jacob was aware of God's REQUIREMENT to tithe.  Now you say it was voluntary.  You contradict yourself.

There is no Scripture that states Israel did not tithe. To say this proves tithing was not a law is an example of determining a doctrine by means of omission.

You aren't consistent.  You have a double standard.  You have previously said that there is no scripture that denounces tithing and draw the conclusion that it must still be commanded.

There is no scripture that says Jacob tithed.

In one sentence you say tithing is voluntary.  In another sentence you say God has commanded us to tithe.

You are putting yourself under the law.  Same as you can voluntarily follow man's laws, or you can ignore them and suffer the consequences.  Since you believe you and your husband were financially cursed while not tithing, you have put yourself under the law; therefore, you fall from grace and will be cursed by the law.

Being under grace doesn't mean that now we voluntarily follow the laws.  
You have taken God's THREE commands to tithe and REDUCED THEM down to ONE, have CHANGED what is tithed, and have CHANGED what to do with the tithe.  You are following NONE of God's tithing commands given in His Word.  You certainly aren't fooling God.  You aren't even fooling me.  But apparently you are fooling yourself.

I am neither inconsistent, nor have a double standard.

If you reject tithing, do so. I don't.

There is no command to tithe before Moses.  If there is a COMMAND to do so, please show us the verse.

Being a tither is a good thing (just like being vegetarian or cellibate).  But teaching or telling anyone that if they do not do it they are robbing God, that is grossly wrong.

Again, the issue is not about how much to give, the issue here is whether the Church is under the tithing law or not.  That is the issue. Doctrine should be based on the Bible, where is the verse that talks about 10% of our salary?  Non existent.

I am tempted to quote those that praise themselves and those that accuse others to demonstrate it is practically impossible to defend the law of tithing without praising ourselves or accusing others.  But I wont go there.  That would be feeding the flesh (too much fun).

Peace

: Talking Donkey  Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 12:13:23
There is no command to tithe before Moses.  If there is a COMMAND to do so, please show us the verse.

Being a tither is a good thing (just like being vegetarian or cellibate).  But teaching or telling anyone that if they do not do it they are robbing God, that is grossly wrong.

I don't have to say it. God says it to those who desire to hear Him. He, and no one else told us we were, and we heeded Him, and rectified the situation.

Again, the issue is not about how much to give, the issue here is whether the Church is under the tithing law or not.  That is the issue. Doctrine should be based on the Bible, where is the verse that talks about 10% of our salary?  Non existent.

I am tempted to quote those that praise themselves and those that accuse others to demonstrate it is practically impossible to defend the law of tithing without praising ourselves or accusing others.  But I wont go there.  That would be feeding the flesh (too much fun).

Tithing is not abolished. In this 21st century, we adapt it to our culture. We allow God to show us how---He is good at doing that.

This is not an opportunity for self-praise, but it is an opportunity to speak to the practice of tithing in the Church, and how good and important it is. Don't get any ideas that it is fun to participate in this kind of discussion, because it isn't---due to the misinterpretation of others and the definite walls that have been put up against it, not to mention the invective that it generates.

Jesus is my Lord and He will vindicate me. I know that the negative stuff that I have to wade through is not against me personally, but simply is a reaction to what is being shared, and not so well, obviously, from a heart that the Lord has spoken to.

In this 21st century, we adapt it to our culture.

Same argument same-sex marriage people can use.

Christians are supposed to adapt their lives to the Word, not the other way around.

And actually, what is there to adapt when it comes to tithing?

Tithing came from the agriculture - the crops, and the tenth animal in herds and flocks. ONLY farmers tithed. There is no example of any other type of profession that tithed, nor are there any instructions for anyone else to tithe, yet they had various other occupations during that period of time.

Arts and Crafts: Ex. 31:3-5; 35:31-35; 2 Ki. 16:10

Baker: Gen. 40:1-2; Jer. 37:21; Hos. 7:4

Builder: 2 Ki. 12:11; 22:6; Ezra 3:10; Matt 21:42; Heb. 3:3; 1 Pet. 2:7

Carpenter: 2 Sam. 5:11; 2 Ki. 12:11; 2 Chr. 24:12; Ezra 3:7; Isa. 44:13; Matt. 13:55; Mk. 6:3

Cook: 1 Sam. 8:13; 9:23-24

Doorkeeper: 2 Ki. 22:4; 25:18; 1 Chr. 15:23-24; Jer. 35:4

Fisherman: Isa. 19:8; Jer. 16:16; Ezek. 47:10; Matt. 4:18; 13:48; Lk. 5:2

Foremen: Ruth 2:5-6; 1 Ki. 5:16; 2 Chr. 2:2, 18; Matt. 20:8

Fortune Teller: Deut. 13:1-3; Acts 16:16

Goldsmith: Neh. 3:8, 31-32; Isa. 40:19; 41:7; 46:6; Jer. 10:9, 14; 51:17

Hunter: Gen. 10:9; 25:27; Jer. 16:16

Innkeeper: Lk. 10:35

Mason - Stonemasons: 2 Sam 5:11; 2 Ki. 12:12; 1 Chr. 22:15; 2 Chr. 24:12

Merchant - Trader: Gen. 23:16; 37:28; 1 Ki. 10:15; Neh. 13:20; Ezek. 27:3, 22-23; Matt. 13:45

Musician: 1 Ki. 10:12; 1 Chr. 6:33; 9:33; 2 Chr. 5:12

Perfume Maker: Ex. 30:25, 33, 35; 37:29; 1 Sam. 8:13; Neh. 3:8

love-peddler: Gen. 38:15-24; Lev. 21:14; Josh. 6:17, 25; Judg. 11:1; 16:1; Jer. 3:1; Joel 3:3; Matt. 21:31-32; Lk. 15:30; 1 Cor. 6:15-16; Jas. 2:25

Scribe - Teacher of the law: 1 Chr. 2:55; 1 Chr. 24:6; 27:32; Neh. 8:1; 13:13; Jer. 36:26; Matt. 2:4; Mk. 2:6; Acts 4:5 (They did not tithe on any income from being a teacher or lawyer.)

Silversmith: Judg. 17:4; Prov. 25:4; Acts 19:24

Spinning - Weaving: Ex. 28:3; 35:25-26; 2 Ki. 23:7; Prov. 31:19; Acts 9:39

Stonecutters: 1 Ki. 5:15; 2 Ki. 12:12; 1 Chr. 22:15

Supervisor: 2 Chr. 31:13; 34:17

Tanner: Num. 31:20; Acts 9:43; 10:6, 32

Tax Collector: Dan. 11:20; Matt. 10:3; Lk. 5:27

There is NO example of any of the above tithing from the income they made, nor was there a provision in God's well-defined tithing command. The command to tithe was not a principle, it was a law, to be followed as it was written.

The part of the world I live in is known as the Agricultural Capital of the World. Agriculture is what the economy is in this part of the US. Yet no pastor asks for a tenth of crops and animals - they want money, even though many church members are farmers. How can any pastor justify saying tithing on income is the principle of the OT tithe when income was NOT tithable?

: garyarnold  Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 12:50:15
In this 21st century, we adapt it to our culture.

Same argument same-sex marriage people can use.

Rubbish.

Christians are supposed to adapt their lives to the Word, not the other way around.

We do.

And actually, what is there to adapt when it comes to tithing?

Tithing came from the agriculture - the crops, and the tenth animal in herds and flocks. ONLY farmers tithed. There is no example of any other type of profession that tithed, nor are there any instructions for anyone else to tithe, yet they had various other occupations during that period of time.

Arts and Crafts: Ex. 31:3-5; 35:31-35; 2 Ki. 16:10

Baker: Gen. 40:1-2; Jer. 37:21; Hos. 7:4

Builder: 2 Ki. 12:11; 22:6; Ezra 3:10; Matt 21:42; Heb. 3:3; 1 Pet. 2:7

Carpenter: 2 Sam. 5:11; 2 Ki. 12:11; 2 Chr. 24:12; Ezra 3:7; Isa. 44:13; Matt. 13:55; Mk. 6:3

Cook: 1 Sam. 8:13; 9:23-24

Doorkeeper: 2 Ki. 22:4; 25:18; 1 Chr. 15:23-24; Jer. 35:4

Fisherman: Isa. 19:8; Jer. 16:16; Ezek. 47:10; Matt. 4:18; 13:48; Lk. 5:2

Foremen: Ruth 2:5-6; 1 Ki. 5:16; 2 Chr. 2:2, 18; Matt. 20:8

Fortune Teller: Deut. 13:1-3; Acts 16:16

Goldsmith: Neh. 3:8, 31-32; Isa. 40:19; 41:7; 46:6; Jer. 10:9, 14; 51:17

Hunter: Gen. 10:9; 25:27; Jer. 16:16

Innkeeper: Lk. 10:35

Mason - Stonemasons: 2 Sam 5:11; 2 Ki. 12:12; 1 Chr. 22:15; 2 Chr. 24:12

Merchant - Trader: Gen. 23:16; 37:28; 1 Ki. 10:15; Neh. 13:20; Ezek. 27:3, 22-23; Matt. 13:45

Musician: 1 Ki. 10:12; 1 Chr. 6:33; 9:33; 2 Chr. 5:12

Perfume Maker: Ex. 30:25, 33, 35; 37:29; 1 Sam. 8:13; Neh. 3:8

love-peddler: Gen. 38:15-24; Lev. 21:14; Josh. 6:17, 25; Judg. 11:1; 16:1; Jer. 3:1; Joel 3:3; Matt. 21:31-32; Lk. 15:30; 1 Cor. 6:15-16; Jas. 2:25

Scribe - Teacher of the law: 1 Chr. 2:55; 1 Chr. 24:6; 27:32; Neh. 8:1; 13:13; Jer. 36:26; Matt. 2:4; Mk. 2:6; Acts 4:5 (They did not tithe on any income from being a teacher or lawyer.)

Silversmith: Judg. 17:4; Prov. 25:4; Acts 19:24

Spinning - Weaving: Ex. 28:3; 35:25-26; 2 Ki. 23:7; Prov. 31:19; Acts 9:39

Stonecutters: 1 Ki. 5:15; 2 Ki. 12:12; 1 Chr. 22:15

Supervisor: 2 Chr. 31:13; 34:17

Tanner: Num. 31:20; Acts 9:43; 10:6, 32

Tax Collector: Dan. 11:20; Matt. 10:3; Lk. 5:27

There is NO example of any of the above tithing from the income they made, nor was there a provision in God's well-defined tithing command. The command to tithe was not a principle, it was a law, to be followed as it was written.

The part of the world I live in is known as the Agricultural Capital of the World. Agriculture is what the economy is in this part of the US. Yet no pastor asks for a tenth of crops and animals - they want money, even though many church members are farmers. How can any pastor justify saying tithing on income is the principle of the OT tithe when income was NOT tithable?

Methinks thou dost protest tooooo much!

: Lively Stone  Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 14:35:16
Methinks thou dost protest tooooo much!

I am a Certified Money and Finance Minister.  My calling is to teach the truth and expose false teachers.

: garyarnold  Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 14:55:45

: Lively Stone  Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 14:35:16
Methinks thou dost protest tooooo much!

I am a Certified Money and Finance Minister.  My calling is to teach the truth and expose false teachers.

I am a Spirit-filled Christian. My calling is to contend for the truth of Jesus Christ and the word of God.

Titles mean nothing. God is no respecter of persons.

Did anyone notice that when we say there is no tithing law for the Church, someone keeps bringing their Rhema word as proof at the law is still in effect? For everyone, all the time?

Why is that?  Hmmmm.

Peace

Rhema is the word of the Lord.

Anyone notice how readily it is discounted by those who haven't experienced it? Every time?

Why is that? Hmmmm.


(http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee267/Floatingaxe/Animated/Peace.gif)

Anyone can claim they have heard from the Lord.  Some say the Lord told them the world is coming to an end on a certain date.  Some say the Lord told them to steal.  Some say the Lord told them to kill. 

Because there are many spirits, God warned us how to guard against false teachers.  The Word says to compare what the teacher says with God's Word.  If it doesn't match, it wasn't a message from God.

Tithing on wages does not match up with God's Word.  Simple as that.  They had wages, even in Genesis.  But nowhere does God's Word say anything about tithing on wages.

Those who teach that God says to tithe on their wages are false teachers.  God didn't give us His Word and then leave it up to us to try and figure out who is teaching truth and who is teaching lies.  He gave us the answer in His Word.  Very simple.

I learned a long time ago I can't believe what a pastor says any more than I can believe what a used-car salesman says.  I have to check them both out for accuracy.  Just because someone claims to be spirit filled doesn't mean it is God's Spirit that they are filled with.  They just might be full of you know what.

Tithing is all Bible-based.

Not trusting our shepherds the root of many a problem. I can see that clearly.

: Lively Stone  Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 16:07:57
Tithing is all Bible-based.

So are animal sacrifices.  But we don't do them anymore.

Jarrod

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 21:26:12

: Lively Stone  Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 16:07:57
Tithing is all Bible-based.

So are animal sacrifices.  But we don't do them anymore.

Jarrod

Tithing has never been rescinded. Animal sacrifices have...in the Tribulation, sacrifices will be revived.

Not following shepherds?  Is that our problem?  Quoting the word of man (or a dream or a vision) as the ultimate in doctrine?  Is there a candid camera somewhere?  Tell me I am being PUNKED...

Tell me you got something better than that to PROVE a doctrine that says the Church is under a new law that says we owe 10% of our salary as a PAYMENT, not a gift, but a payment we OWE to God and that he will curse us if we dont pay.

Waiting for those hidden verses that no one knows about ... to be enlightened.

TD

: Lively Stone  Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 22:18:04

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 21:26:12

: Lively Stone  Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 16:07:57
Tithing is all Bible-based.

So are animal sacrifices.  But we don't do them anymore.

Jarrod

Tithing has never been rescinded. Animal sacrifices have...in the Tribulation, sacrifices will be revived.

Please show me where animal sacrifices are rescinded.

If you can, I will show you where tithing as a commandment is rescinded.

Jarrod

: Talking Donkey  Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 22:28:25
Not following shepherds?  Is that our problem?  Quoting the word of man (or a dream or a vision) as the ultimate in doctrine?  Is there a candid camera somewhere?  Tell me I am being PUNKED...

It's what I am seeing all over the place.

Tell me you got something better than that to PROVE a doctrine that says the Church is under a new law that says we owe 10% of our salary as a PAYMENT, not a gift, but a payment we OWE to God and that he will curse us if we dont pay.

There is no new LAW. His word stands forever.

What I see is an attitude more than anything else in those who reject the tithe. Christians need to develop as encouragers!

Romans 12:15
Be happy with those who are happy. Be sad with those who are sad.


I don't see evidence of that here.

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 22:34:14

: Lively Stone  Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 22:18:04

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 21:26:12

: Lively Stone  Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 16:07:57
Tithing is all Bible-based.

So are animal sacrifices.  But we don't do them anymore.

Jarrod

Tithing has never been rescinded. Animal sacrifices have...in the Tribulation, sacrifices will be revived.

Please show me where animal sacrifices are rescinded.

If you can, I will show you where tithing as a commandment is rescinded.

Jarrod

You cannot.

: Lively Stone  Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 22:36:42

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 22:34:14

: Lively Stone  Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 22:18:04

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 21:26:12

: Lively Stone  Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 16:07:57
Tithing is all Bible-based.

So are animal sacrifices.  But we don't do them anymore.

Jarrod

Tithing has never been rescinded. Animal sacrifices have...in the Tribulation, sacrifices will be revived.

Please show me where animal sacrifices are rescinded.

If you can, I will show you where tithing as a commandment is rescinded.

Jarrod

You cannot.

So, show me where animal sacrifices are rescinded first, and then we shall see.

::smile::

In the words of a Jew:


...the Holy Temple was destroyed again, this time by the Romans. Once again, we were in exile. This time, the Rabbis told us, the exile will last very long, and no end date is known.

And when the Messiah comes, the Holy Temple will be rebuilt, and once again we will bring sacrifices on the Holy Altar there, as it says "And the sacrificial offerings of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to Hashem, like in the olden days years ago" (Malachi 3:4).

It is still forbidden to bring sacrifices outside of the Holy Temple. We follow, today, the instructions taught us by King Solomon, the Prophet Hosea and the other Prophets, and we pray without bringing sacrifices.

In addition, when we wish to bring a sacrifice, we study the Laws of the particular sacrifice we wish to bring.

So the short answer to your question is that we can no longer bring Sacrifices because the Torah forbids us to bring any Sacrifices outside of the Holy Temple. Since we have no Holy Temple, and it is impossible for us to rebuild it at this time, we keep praying to Hashem that we should be able to rebuild it soon in peace, and once again be able to bring the Praise and Thanksgiving Sacrifices once again.

Ok, let's pretend that answer actually showed in the Bible where animal sacrifices were done away with, because I really want to show you these verses.  Emphasis added by yours truly.

Hebrews 7:5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
Hbr 7:11 KJV - If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
Hbr 7:12 KJV - For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Hbr 7:18 KJV - For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
Hbr 7:19 KJV - For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope [did]; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

That should be specific enough, I would think.

Jarrod

Hebrews 7:4-14
4 We can see how great Melchizedek was. Abraham gave him one-tenth part of all he had taken in the war. 5 The Law made the family of Levi the Jewish religious leaders. The Law said that the religious leaders were to take one-tenth part of everything from their own people. 6 Melchizedek was not even from the family group of Levi but Abraham paid him. Melchizedek showed respect to Abraham who was the one who had received God's promises. 7 The one who shows respect is always greater than the one who receives it. 8 Jewish religious leaders receive one-tenth part. They are men and they all die. But here Melchizedek received one-tenth part and is alive. 9 We might say that Levi, who receives one-tenth part, paid one-tenth part through Abraham. 10 Levi was not yet born. He was still inside Abraham's body when Abraham paid Melchizedek.

11 The Law was given during the time when Levi and his sons were the religious leaders. If the work of those religious leaders had been perfect in taking away the sins of the people, there would have been no need for another religious leader. But one like Melchizedek was needed and not one from the family group of Aaron. 12 For when the family group of religious leaders changed, the Law had to be changed also. 13 These things speak of Christ Who is from another family group. That family group never had a religious leader who killed animals and gave gifts at the altar for the sins of the people. 14 Our Lord came from the family group of Judah. Moses did not write anything about religious leaders coming from that family group.




As Abraham gave tithes to the high priest Melchizedek, not a Levite, and 'lives' according to scripture, we also bring our tithes before the high priest like him, called Yeshua, also not a Levite, and lives forever.


Nothing is rescinded concerning the tithe.

: Lively Stone  Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 23:24:13
Hebrews 7:4-14
4 We can see how great Melchizedek was. Abraham gave him one-tenth part of all he had taken in the war. 5 The Law made the family of Levi the Jewish religious leaders. The Law said that the religious leaders were to take one-tenth part of everything from their own people. 6 Melchizedek was not even from the family group of Levi but Abraham paid him. Melchizedek showed respect to Abraham who was the one who had received God’s promises. 7 The one who shows respect is always greater than the one who receives it. 8 Jewish religious leaders receive one-tenth part. They are men and they all die. But here Melchizedek received one-tenth part and is alive. 9 We might say that Levi, who receives one-tenth part, paid one-tenth part through Abraham. 10 Levi was not yet born. He was still inside Abraham’s body when Abraham paid Melchizedek.

11 The Law was given during the time when Levi and his sons were the religious leaders. If the work of those religious leaders had been perfect in taking away the sins of the people, there would have been no need for another religious leader. But one like Melchizedek was needed and not one from the family group of Aaron. 12 For when the family group of religious leaders changed, the Law had to be changed also. 13 These things speak of Christ Who is from another family group. That family group never had a religious leader who killed animals and gave gifts at the altar for the sins of the people. 14 Our Lord came from the family group of Judah. Moses did not write anything about religious leaders coming from that family group.




As Abraham gave tithes to the high priest Melchizedek, not a Levite, and 'lives' according to scripture, we also bring our tithes before the high priest like him, called Yeshua, also not a Levite, and lives forever.


Nothing is rescinded concerning the tithe.

Well not in those verses.  It's in verse 18.  You conveniently stopped the quote at verse 14.

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Sun Sep 04, 2011 - 01:16:37

: Lively Stone  Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 23:24:13
Hebrews 7:4-14
4 We can see how great Melchizedek was. Abraham gave him one-tenth part of all he had taken in the war. 5 The Law made the family of Levi the Jewish religious leaders. The Law said that the religious leaders were to take one-tenth part of everything from their own people. 6 Melchizedek was not even from the family group of Levi but Abraham paid him. Melchizedek showed respect to Abraham who was the one who had received God's promises. 7 The one who shows respect is always greater than the one who receives it. 8 Jewish religious leaders receive one-tenth part. They are men and they all die. But here Melchizedek received one-tenth part and is alive. 9 We might say that Levi, who receives one-tenth part, paid one-tenth part through Abraham. 10 Levi was not yet born. He was still inside Abraham's body when Abraham paid Melchizedek.

11 The Law was given during the time when Levi and his sons were the religious leaders. If the work of those religious leaders had been perfect in taking away the sins of the people, there would have been no need for another religious leader. But one like Melchizedek was needed and not one from the family group of Aaron. 12 For when the family group of religious leaders changed, the Law had to be changed also. 13 These things speak of Christ Who is from another family group. That family group never had a religious leader who killed animals and gave gifts at the altar for the sins of the people. 14 Our Lord came from the family group of Judah. Moses did not write anything about religious leaders coming from that family group.




As Abraham gave tithes to the high priest Melchizedek, not a Levite, and 'lives' according to scripture, we also bring our tithes before the high priest like him, called Yeshua, also not a Levite, and lives forever.


Nothing is rescinded concerning the tithe.

Well not in those verses.  It's in verse 18.  You conveniently stopped the quote at verse 14.

It's all about Jesus, our great high priest! We need not make Him an excuse not to bring our tithes and offerings to Him for His blessing and multiplication and use!

: Lively Stone  Sun Sep 04, 2011 - 07:34:47
It's all about Jesus, our great high priest! We need not make Him an excuse not to bring our tithes and offerings to Him for His blessing and multiplication and use!

Isn't it odd that even though Abram gave a tenth directly to Melchizedek, the king/priest, that some Christians think they can give directly to God by giving it to their pastor?

I find it quite offensive that pastors have appointed themselves to be the receiver of what belongs to God.  After all, the pastor says the tithe belongs to God.  Then he appoints himself to receive the tithe!!!

God never gave any pastor or church permission to receive his tithe.  God commanded His tithe be taken to the Levites, FOREVER, in Numbers 18.

Since the tithe belongs to God, if a pastor accepts it isn't he stealing it from God?

Hebrews 7:7 (KJV)  "And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.

: garyarnold  Sun Sep 04, 2011 - 10:59:25

: Lively Stone  Sun Sep 04, 2011 - 07:34:47
It's all about Jesus, our great high priest! We need not make Him an excuse not to bring our tithes and offerings to Him for His blessing and multiplication and use!

Isn't it odd that even though Abram gave a tenth directly to Melchizedek, the king/priest, that some Christians think they can give directly to God by giving it to their pastor?

I find it quite offensive that pastors have appointed themselves to be the receiver of what belongs to God.  After all, the pastor says the tithe belongs to God.  Then he appoints himself to receive the tithe!!!

God never gave any pastor or church permission to receive his tithe.  God commanded His tithe be taken to the Levites, FOREVER, in Numbers 18.

Since the tithe belongs to God, if a pastor accepts it isn't he stealing it from God?

Hebrews 7:7 (KJV)  "And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.

Your problems with pastoral authority are a menace to the call to tithe and give.

100% wrong.

Being Spirit led instead of following an out-dated Old Testament law, I find myself giving far more than a mere tenth of my income.  My giving is not based on any percentage.  It is based on the needs of where I am giving.

You conveniently ignore that born-again believers are now priests, and according to the scriptures, priests do not tithe.  Maybe you deny being a part of a Royal Priesthood?

Jeremiah 10:21 (KJV)
21For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered.

Jeremiah 12:10 (KJV)
10Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness.

Jeremiah 22:22 (KJV)
22The wind shall eat up all thy pastors, and thy lovers shall go into captivity: surely then shalt thou be ashamed and confounded for all thy wickedness.

Jeremiah 23:1 (KJV)
1Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.
2Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.

Just because someone has the tithe of pastor doesn't in any way mean that God has called that person.  Today, being a pastor is a career.

I am a Money & Financial Minister and GIVE my services.  I charge nothing for my services.  I accept NO donations of any kind.  God called me to preach, and God has already provided for my needs.  I receive NO reimbursement for any expenses I incur.  Therefore, my needs do not influence my teaching.

: Jimmy  Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 10:35:10
Tithing is one of those rules and regulations laid down in the Law.  I am really surprised to find some who preach hot and heavy against the Christian's need to hold to or keep the Law and yet consider tithing as something the Christian is bound to do.  Some things are just weird.

Weird and dangerous too.  And apparently, although we are not under the law of the Bible, according to some, we are under the man-made law of give me the 10% of your salary because it is not yours in the first place.

This thread should be placed under "Doctrines based on Rhema word revelation".  But unfortunately, there is no such thing.

Peace

Once again, can someone please show me the verse that shows that Abraham was under a law of tithing?

I am also interested to see the verse that says that we are not supposed to give as we purposed in our hearts, until we first pay what we owe God because he will require it of us robbers of God's money?

Where is that verse?

Spare me the rhema revelation (Isa 8:20).

P.S. The pharisees were good at tithing, so....?

Peace

Even a secular person tithes and the principle, because it is a God principle, works. Here is a secular person's comments on tithing:



Tithing is the practice of giving away 10% of your income (tithe means "tenth

A liberal definition of firstfruits would include the first of most anything, including the first part of one's income. However, the scriptures restrict the definition of firstfruits, when associated with offerings, to only food. Offerings of firstfruits consisted of grains, grapes (and wine made therefrom), olives (and olive oil made therefrom), and from other crops that come from the ground or soil.

Firstfruit offerings always came from the miracles of God, or from that which was "produced" by God. Man cannot produce crops. Man can only harvest the crops that God produces and gives to us. In Deuteronomy 8:18 God tells us that He gave man the ability to produce wealth. In other words, God gives us the ability to work and earn a living. We earn that income from our labor. Our labor is not holy. Firstfruit offerings only came from God's labor and NEVER man's labor. Saying that the first part of one's income is the firstfruits is not biblical. It fits the definition of firstfruits, but NOT the biblical context relating to offerings.

OLD TESTAMENT
Proverbs 3:9 (KJV) "Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase:

Please keep the personal comments out of your arguments in this discussion.

Stay on topic and there is no name calling allowed in this forum.

Is Tithing New Testament?


Today's Question: One area that I am researching is the Tithe and offering. I know very well what Malachi 3:7-12 teaches that according to the Law if a believer falls short then they have robbed God and fall under a curse. Paul wrote to the Galatians in Galatians. 3:13 telling them they had been redeemed from the cruse of the Law.

The main point of Malachi 3 is often over looked. The prophet was telling the Jews to turn their hearts to God and give with love so the ministries would be fully supplied. I know that God wants us to give—and I believe in the law of reciprocity—and I know we need to support our local church, orphans, widows, etc. Here's my question shouldn't support and giving be from the heart and not because we are under a mandatory legal system? What are your views on Tithes, offerings and giving?

Brother Keith



Bible Answer: You asked a great question. I get this question all the time.
Tithing began before the law was introduced. The Law simply regulated the tithe. Abraham tithed to Melchizedek, 400 years before the time of Moses and the Law, and according to Romans 4:12 we are to walk in the footsteps of the faith of Abraham. If tithing was good for him, it should be good for us, too.

We give tithes like Abraham gave them—not by the Law but by faith. And beside that, if the people of God paid ten percent before the Law, and ten percent under the Law, shouldn't we, who live by grace, be doing any less when we have a better covenant (Heb 7:22).

There is a passage in Hebrews, which deals with this issue directly. It is Hebrews 7:8:
In the one case, the tenth is collected by men who die; but in the other case, by him who is declared to be living.

Melchizedek received Abraham's tithe. The Hebrew writer shows that Melchizedek is a prefigure of Christ. We can conclude that just as Abraham gave a tithe to Melchizedek we give a tithe to Christ who is declared to be living.

Some people think this is a new issue. It is as old as the second century when more and more Gentiles were being converted. The early Jewish believers had no problem with tithing since they had done it under the Law and gave it to the priests. They simply gave their tithe to the elders of the church and did by love. However, as the church became less Jewish this issue came up to the church fathers. They answered the question of tithing with Matthew 23:23:
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

Notice Jesus said, "You should have practiced the latter (justice, mercy and faithfulness), without neglecting the former (tithing)." The fathers argued, and rightful so, that Jesus word ends the discussion. Since Jesus said not to neglect the former—being tithing—then no believer should neglect tithing. I wholeheartedly agree!

Some argue that Jesus words are not applicable to us today, because Jesus was under the Law and spoke to those under the Law. Their theory goes something like this: Jesus was giving an instruction to the Jews so His words are not binding to us.
The problem with this interpretation is that these teachers are bringing Christ down to the level of a Jewish prophet or Teacher of the Law. Jesus is the Word of God made flesh, so this means every word that comes out of His mouth is eternal. He cannot say anything without it being "spiritual law

All of the following well-known scholars agree that tithing ENDED AT THE CROSS, and that there is NO tithing in the Christian Church.

Scholars at the Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary who published their report on tithing in 2005,
John MacArthur,
Chuck Swindoll,
J. Vernon McGee,
Robert Baker (chief SBC historian),
Dr. David Croteau and Dr. Russell Kelly (both of whom wrote their thesis on tithing to get their Ph.D.),
Phillip Schaff (historian),
Alfred Edersheim,
James W. Winfree Ministries,
C. I. Scofield,
Craig Blomberg (Denver Seminary),
Geoffrey W. Bromiley (Fuller Theological Seminary),
Charles Ryrie (Dallas Theological Seminary),
Walter A. Elwell (Wheaton College),
Theodore H. Epp (founder Back to the Bible),
Gary Friesen (former Dean of Multinomah College),
Scholars at the Dallas Theological Seminary,
Dalls Theological Seminary,
Talbot Bible College,
and the list goes on and on.

Let's look closely at Abram's tithe.  First, the goods that Abram gave the tenth from didn't even belong to Abram:

Genesis 14:21 (KJV) - And the king of Sodom said unto Abram, Give me the persons, and take the goods to thyself.

Notice in verse 21 the king of Sodom didn't ask Abram if he would give back to him the people, but rather said GIVE ME the people and keep the goods for yourself.  The way that is worded indicates that the king of Sodom was claiming that the people and the goods belonged to him, but he offered the goods to Abram.

It would normally have been the custom that the victor owns the spoils, but normally the spoils would have belonged to the enemy.  In this case, Abram was RECOVERING goods belonging to the King of Sodom.

NOTE:  The king of Sodom had an original right both to the persons and to the goods, and it would bear a debate whether Abram's acquired right by rescue would supersede his title and extinguish it; but, to prevent all quarrels, the king of Sodom makes this fair proposal (v. 21).
--Should the Church Teach Tithing by Dr. Russell Earl Kelly, pages 24-25

Genesis 14:22-24 (KJV)
22And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth,
23That I will not take from a thread even to a shoelatchet, and that I will not take any thing that is thine, lest thou shouldest say, I have made Abram rich:
24Save only that which the young men have eaten, and the portion of the men which went with me, Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre; let them take their portion.

Notice in verses 23 and 24 Abram also acknowledges that the goods belonged to the king of Sodom.  But the king of Sodam offered that Abram could keep the goods for himself. Abram declined the offer.  He didn't want man to take credit for his wealth.  By not accepting any of the goods for himself, Abram was putting all his faith in God to provide for him rather than man.

Therefore, it is clear that both the king of Sodom and Abram acknowledged that the spoils of war did NOT belong to Abram, yet he gave a tenth of the spoils to King Melchizedek.  This would seem that Abram did something wrong, if not even illegal, but Biblical historians agree that it was custom in Abram's day to give the king a tenth of the war spoils.  Had Abram not given the tenth, he would have gone against custom.

Conclusion:  Abram did NOT give a tenth of his income, or his wealth.  Abram gave a tenth of the spoils of war that didn't belong to him and declined to keep the goods offered to him.  That is NOT an example of tithing for Christians to follow today.  By declining to keep any of the goods for himself, Abram showed his faith that God would provide.  That is the example of faith that Christians should be following.  Furthermore, the law did NOT require a tenth of war spoils to be given, so to say that tithing was before the law and then in the law is not true.  What Abram did was NOT even codified into the later law.

Malachi 3 is NOT God's tithing commands. Start with Malachi 3:7 -(KJV) Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?

God is referring to His ORDINANCES, or commands, or laws. The tithing laws are contained in the ORDINANCES, not Malachi 3.

Those ORDINANCES for tithing are as follows:

THE FIRST TITHE
Leviticus 27:30-33 defines this tithe as a tenth of crops and animals in herds and flocks.
Numbers 18 gives the ordinances, or instructions, for this tithe, and commands this tithe be taken to the Levites.
Purpose of this tithe: to support the Levitical Priesthood.

SECOND TITHE
Deuteronomy 14:22-27: aka The Festival Tithe - a tenth of crops, plus add to that the firstborn animals, and take for the yearly feast.
Purpose of this tithe:"that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always

Ten Points for Tithing


•Tithe in faith - have faith about presenting your tithe by hearing God's Word on your tithe (Romans 10:17)

•Prove God with your tithes - give your tithes, declaring your expectation that He will bless you (Malachi 3:10-12)

•Tithe with rejoicing - rejoice in every good thing God has done for you (Deuteronomy 26:11)

•Worship God with your tithe - remember God's goodness towards you (Prov.3:9-10)

•Bring your tithe to Jesus - it is Jesus you are presenting your tithe to (Hebrews 6:20)

•Bring your tithe to your home church - if you want enough supply in your house be sure your tithe is providing supply in His house (Malachi 3:10)

•Tithe with all diligence - this lifts your material affairs into God's sphere of care and fosters your good stewardship

•Give your tithe before tax - your increase is before tax and your tithe is on your increase

•Tithe inheritances and all types windfalls - these are part of your increase; they are how God increased you

•Petition God as you tithe - your giving of tithes puts you in a special position of confidence as you ask for God's provision and prospering


Link to this text: http://www.teachingpages.co.uk/topicPresentation.php?articleTenPointerstithe#ixzz1X19I1wc3

140 Questions Tithe-Teachers Should Honestly Answer
by Russell Earl Kelly, PHD

1. According to Genesis 14:11-16 were the spoils of war Abraham received holy tithes from God's holy land? Would they have been "holy

As per the OP:

If Abram and tithing are legal twins, where are Abraham's grace offerings? Understand, we are not following Moses, but Abraham. We are not under law in observing tithing. As in all other acts of obedience to God, we rejoice to know His will and take great pleasure in doing it. We are not at all under bondage. We are happy to follow in the footsteps of "the friend of God." If you object to us gathering some details from Moses words, we cite you to I Corinthians 9:8-11. "Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?" Paul's readers were not in the place of legality. "Those things were written for our admonition." We derive spiritual benefits from Old Testament writings without being in bondage to anything or any person. The testimonies of saints who tithe are profoundly interesting and instructive. They receive spiritual blessings thru paying tithes. They do not look at this gracious rite thru Moses eyes, but thru the eyes of Abraham. I call it a gracious rite because it was instituted under grace. If our father in the faith gave the tenth and the prototype accepted it, how much more should we, the children in faith, give the tenth to the great High Priest? Beloved Brother, I praise My God for the privilege of answering your criticisms. Much added light has dawned upon me on the subject, and I am convinced overwhelmingly that we are right. My prayer is that you and others may be delivered from the bondage of your supposed liberty and come into the glorious freedom of full "obedience of faith" in the perfect will of God. Sincerely in Christ Jesus, -
A. S. Copley

This says it all---it is a heart issue.

This says it all---it is a heart issue.

It's a bunch of baloney.  Nowhere in God's Word does it say that Abram tithed in faith.  The Word doesn't tell us WHY Abram tithed, and without knowing WHY, we can't just make up stories and then go with it.

A one-time example of Abram giving a tenth.  OF WAR SPOILS, not on his own income.  And kept NOTHING for himself.

It is nothing but manipulation of God's Word to say that we are following Abraham's example of faith when we tithe today.  Since the Word doesn't say anything about him tithing in faith, no one has a right to add the word faith and teach it as though it is truth.

This is the problem with religion today.  Man is taking God's Word and adding to it, subtracting from it, and turning it into man's word instead of God's Word.

I believe what the scriptures say, not what some pastor says.

Everything Abraham did was out of his deep faith and trust in God, and his intimate relationship with Him.

I believe what God says in His whole word, not slamming the door shut on certain promises that are offered to us concerning the tithe---He asks us to test him in it. When you do, you will see His word is good, good, good---all the time.

Everything Abraham did was out of his deep faith and trust in God, and his intimate relationship with Him.

Another blanket statement with no Biblical truth.

To be sure, Abraham had his moments of failure and sin (as we all do), and the Bible doesn't shrink from describing them in detail. We know of at least two occasions in which Abraham lied regarding his relationship to Sarah in order to protect himself in potentially hostile lands (Genesis 12:10-20; 20:1-18). In both these incidents, God protects and blesses Abraham despite his lack of faith. We also know that the frustration of not having a child got to Abraham and Sarah as they concoct a plan to take matters into their own hands with Sarah's servant, Hagar (Genesis 16:1-15). The birth of Ishmael not only demonstrates the futility of Abraham's folly and lack of faith, but also the grace of God (in allowing the birth to take place and even blessing Ishmael). The 'Father of the Faithful' had his moments of doubt and disbelief, yet he is still exalted among men as an example of the faithful life.
    http://www.gotquestions.org/life-Abraham.html

EVERY SINGLE THING that Abraham did was not because of faith.  There is NOTHING in God's Word that says Abraham tithed out of faith.  It only appears in man's word.

If you want to believe what man teaches over what the scriptures actually say, so be it.  I will stick with the scriptures.

: garyarnold  Sun Sep 04, 2011 - 17:22:14
Everything Abraham did was out of his deep faith and trust in God, and his intimate relationship with Him.

Another blanket statement with no Biblical truth.

To be sure, Abraham had his moments of failure and sin (as we all do), and the Bible doesn't shrink from describing them in detail. We know of at least two occasions in which Abraham lied regarding his relationship to Sarah in order to protect himself in potentially hostile lands (Genesis 12:10-20; 20:1-18). In both these incidents, God protects and blesses Abraham despite his lack of faith. We also know that the frustration of not having a child got to Abraham and Sarah as they concoct a plan to take matters into their own hands with Sarah's servant, Hagar (Genesis 16:1-15). The birth of Ishmael not only demonstrates the futility of Abraham's folly and lack of faith, but also the grace of God (in allowing the birth to take place and even blessing Ishmael). The 'Father of the Faithful' had his moments of doubt and disbelief, yet he is still exalted among men as an example of the faithful life.
    http://www.gotquestions.org/life-Abraham.html

EVERY SINGLE THING that Abraham did was not because of faith.  There is NOTHING in God's Word that says Abraham tithed out of faith.  It only appears in man's word.

If you want to believe what man teaches over what the scriptures actually say, so be it.  I will stick with the scriptures.

Abraham's faith is held up for us to emulate. Nothing erroneous in that. It is obvious that some are willing to say anything to gain a foothold in this discussion.

Not gonna do it.

The faith that Abram demonstrated in Genesis 14 is that he kept NOTHING for himself.  That is where Abram shows his faith, if anywhere in the story, because by keeping nothing for himself, he placed his faith that God would provide.  Giving a tenth in that story says nothing about faith, and to come to that conclusion isn't logical.

: garyarnold  Sun Sep 04, 2011 - 17:32:12
The faith that Abram demonstrated in Genesis 14 is that he kept NOTHING for himself.  That is where Abram shows his faith, if anywhere in the story, because by keeping nothing for himself, he placed his faith that God would provide.  Giving a tenth in that story says nothing about faith, and to come to that conclusion isn't logical.

By Jove, I think you've got it!

100% is God's! Amen!

: Lively Stone  Sun Sep 04, 2011 - 15:49:40
As per the OP:

If Abram and tithing are legal twins, where are Abraham's grace offerings? Understand, we are not following Moses, but Abraham. We are not under law in observing tithing. As in all other acts of obedience to God, we rejoice to know His will and take great pleasure in doing it. We are not at all under bondage. We are happy to follow in the footsteps of "the friend of God." If you object to us gathering some details from Moses words, we cite you to I Corinthians 9:8-11. "Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?" Paul's readers were not in the place of legality. "Those things were written for our admonition." We derive spiritual benefits from Old Testament writings without being in bondage to anything or any person. The testimonies of saints who tithe are profoundly interesting and instructive. They receive spiritual blessings thru paying tithes. They do not look at this gracious rite thru Moses eyes, but thru the eyes of Abraham. I call it a gracious rite because it was instituted under grace. If our father in the faith gave the tenth and the prototype accepted it, how much more should we, the children in faith, give the tenth to the great High Priest? Beloved Brother, I praise My God for the privilege of answering your criticisms. Much added light has dawned upon me on the subject, and I am convinced overwhelmingly that we are right. My prayer is that you and others may be delivered from the bondage of your supposed liberty and come into the glorious freedom of full "obedience of faith" in the perfect will of God. Sincerely in Christ Jesus, -
A. S. Copley

This says it all---it is a heart issue.

When did a heart issue (or a rhema word) start being a law that we are accountable to?

Peace

: Lively Stone  Sun Sep 04, 2011 - 17:44:55

: garyarnold  Sun Sep 04, 2011 - 17:32:12
The faith that Abram demonstrated in Genesis 14 is that he kept NOTHING for himself.  That is where Abram shows his faith, if anywhere in the story, because by keeping nothing for himself, he placed his faith that God would provide.  Giving a tenth in that story says nothing about faith, and to come to that conclusion isn't logical.

By Jove, I think you've got it!

100% is God's! Amen!

Make up your mind !  What part of your money are you stealing from God if you fail to put it on the Church's plate?  Is it 10% or 100%?

Peace

Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Abraham was not under law, so why did Abraham give a tenth part of all to the type of Christ in Hebrews 7:2, and is not Christ's priesthood forever after the order of Melchisedec according to Psalms 110:4 ?

Abraham was not under law, so why did Abraham give a tenth part of all to the type of Christ in Hebrews 7:2, and is not Christ's priesthood forever after the order of Melchisedec according to Psalms 110:4 ?

Biblical historians say that during the days of Abraham, it was CUSTOM to give a tenth of the war spoils to the king.  But the Word doesn't tell us WHY Abram gave the tenth, and we shouldn't just make up a reason.

Christ's priesthood is after the ORDER OF Melchizedec - order; i.e. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.  In Hebrews 7:18, we see that the Levitical priesthood was disannulled.  That means it is treated as though it was never there.  It is taken out of the picture.  Therefore, we go from Melchizedec's priesthood to that of Christ with no priesthood in the middle.

Numbers 18 established the Levitical priesthood along with tithing to support the priesthood.  Once annulled, it is treated as though there never was a Levitical priesthood, and never was a tithing law to support the priesthood.

: Talking Donkey  Sun Sep 04, 2011 - 19:03:15

: Lively Stone  Sun Sep 04, 2011 - 15:49:40
As per the OP:

If Abram and tithing are legal twins, where are Abraham's grace offerings? Understand, we are not following Moses, but Abraham. We are not under law in observing tithing. As in all other acts of obedience to God, we rejoice to know His will and take great pleasure in doing it. We are not at all under bondage. We are happy to follow in the footsteps of "the friend of God." If you object to us gathering some details from Moses words, we cite you to I Corinthians 9:8-11. "Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?" Paul's readers were not in the place of legality. "Those things were written for our admonition." We derive spiritual benefits from Old Testament writings without being in bondage to anything or any person. The testimonies of saints who tithe are profoundly interesting and instructive. They receive spiritual blessings thru paying tithes. They do not look at this gracious rite thru Moses eyes, but thru the eyes of Abraham. I call it a gracious rite because it was instituted under grace. If our father in the faith gave the tenth and the prototype accepted it, how much more should we, the children in faith, give the tenth to the great High Priest? Beloved Brother, I praise My God for the privilege of answering your criticisms. Much added light has dawned upon me on the subject, and I am convinced overwhelmingly that we are right. My prayer is that you and others may be delivered from the bondage of your supposed liberty and come into the glorious freedom of full "obedience of faith" in the perfect will of God. Sincerely in Christ Jesus, -
A. S. Copley

This says it all---it is a heart issue.

When did a heart issue (or a rhema word) start being a law that we are accountable to?

Peace

When God tells you to do something you had better do it. We are accountable to Him. It is all a heart issue. the way people denounce tithing and tithers is disgusting, and not at all Christ-like. THAT, friend, is a heart issue, as visible as a festering boil.

: garyarnold  Sun Sep 04, 2011 - 20:12:52
Abraham was not under law, so why did Abraham give a tenth part of all to the type of Christ in Hebrews 7:2, and is not Christ's priesthood forever after the order of Melchisedec according to Psalms 110:4 ?

Biblical historians say that during the days of Abraham, it was CUSTOM to give a tenth of the war spoils to the king.  But the Word doesn't tell us WHY Abram gave the tenth, and we shouldn't just make up a reason.

Christ's priesthood is after the ORDER OF Melchizedec - order; i.e. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.  In Hebrews 7:18, we see that the Levitical priesthood was disannulled.  That means it is treated as though it was never there.  It is taken out of the picture.  Therefore, we go from Melchizedec's priesthood to that of Christ with no priesthood in the middle.

Numbers 18 established the Levitical priesthood along with tithing to support the priesthood.  Once annulled, it is treated as though there never was a Levitical priesthood, and never was a tithing law to support the priesthood.

Again discounting Melchizedec as a mere king, just to make an argument against tithing

Seems to me if your argument was Spirit led, you would never try to make your point by denigrating Melchizedec

But alas...

It is human to sometimes say or do anything for the sake of an "X" in the win column

Sometimes we need to ask ourselves what it is we're winning   ::shrug::

: gospel  Sun Sep 04, 2011 - 20:53:36
It is human to sometimes say or do anything for the sake of an "X" in the win column

Sometimes we need to ask ourselves what it is we're winning   ::shrug::

This is not a win or lose issue.  It is a right or wrong issue.  It is a truth vs lies issue.

: garyarnold  Sun Sep 04, 2011 - 20:12:52

Abraham was not under law, so why did Abraham give a tenth part of all to the type of Christ in Hebrews 7:2, and is not Christ's priesthood forever after the order of Melchisedec according to Psalms 110:4 ?

Biblical historians say that during the days of Abraham, it was CUSTOM to give a tenth of the war spoils to the king.  But the Word doesn't tell us WHY Abram gave the tenth, and we shouldn't just make up a reason.

Christ's priesthood is after the ORDER OF Melchizedec - order; i.e. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.  In Hebrews 7:18, we see that the Levitical priesthood was disannulled.  That means it is treated as though it was never there.  It is taken out of the picture.  Therefore, we go from Melchizedec's priesthood to that of Christ with no priesthood in the middle.

Numbers 18 established the Levitical priesthood along with tithing to support the priesthood.  Once annulled, it is treated as though there never was a Levitical priesthood, and never was a tithing law to support the priesthood.

I did not bring the Levitical priesthood into the equation. What I was attempting to bring out was that if Abraham believed God and gave a tenth before the law was given, what was he believing that was annulled? I personally do not care what anyone believes or practices with their giving. As for me as in Matthew 6:3,  "But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth." Given directly to meet my brother's need or through my pastor, I do what I do by the grace of God and am supported with peace of a good conscience.

Do I expect earthly reward for doing so? If I went by the prosperity message preached today I might, but Paul gave all, suffered beatings and imprisonment, and was finally beheaded for his efforts, but you ought to see him now. Behold, Jesus comes quickly; and his reward for me is with Him. I personally think all this attitude of how or what we do to follow certain traditions are superfluous as to how we actually love our neighbor as ourselves. I am judged as to my walk with Christ in me; not what you or anyone else does. Just like many things practiced, and of those given us by tradition also, we may be able to apply 1 Corinthians 11:16 to the mix: "But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God."

God bless you all in Jesus' name.
   
 

: Lively Stone  Sun Sep 04, 2011 - 15:14:26
I know very well what Malachi 3:7-12 teaches that according to the Law if a believer falls short then they have robbed God and fall under a curse.

Brother Keith

Lots of things wrong, but this one sticks out to me.  Brother Keith has apparently misunderstood Malachi.

The book of Malachi was written specifically to the Levitical priests.  These were the people who COLLECTED the tithes, not the people who tithed.  The portion of Malachi 3 Keith refers to admonishes these priests to "bring the tithe to the storehouse." The storehouse is the temple at Jerusalem.  Essentially, these Levites were to collect the tithes from their area and travel with them to Jerusalem to bring them into the national storehouse at the temple.  This was mostly grain, and the nation kept it as a store against famine, following the example of Joseph in Egypt.

It then goes on to tell them that if they do not do this, they are cursed.  These Levites are not allowed to misappropriate the tithe to keep it for themselves.  The text says they have robbed God, and means it literally.  They have taken up the collection, and failed to turn it in, keeping it for themselves.

So, if you COLLECT A TITHE FROM SOMEONE ELSE, and then keep part or all of it for yourself, then this book and chapter apply to you.  If you are the one giving a tithe, this has little/nothing to do with you.

Jarrod

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Sun Sep 04, 2011 - 22:29:34

: Lively Stone  Sun Sep 04, 2011 - 15:14:26
I know very well what Malachi 3:7-12 teaches that according to the Law if a believer falls short then they have robbed God and fall under a curse.

Brother Keith

Lots of things wrong, but this one sticks out to me.  Brother Keith has apparently misunderstood Malachi.

Oh well, brother Keith was the one asking the question of the pastor in his article.

Something I suppose bears saying.

There is nothing wrong with setting aside 10% of one's income to give to a church (or anyone needy, for that matter).

The problem many here have with tithing is ministers telling people that it is commanded (it isn't), or that they are cursed if they don't do it (no more under the law type of curses exist).

Jarrod

It was a curse for us to be in the financial bondage we were in before we started tithing. Tithing freed us, and we give all the glory to God. He makes a way where there seems to be no way.

: Lively Stone  Mon Sep 05, 2011 - 00:11:08
It was a curse for us to be in the financial bondage we were in before we started tithing. Tithing freed us, and we give all the glory to God. He makes a way where there seems to be no way.

Who cursed you, then?  I don't think you can blame that one on God.

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Mon Sep 05, 2011 - 00:57:31

: Lively Stone  Mon Sep 05, 2011 - 00:11:08
It was a curse for us to be in the financial bondage we were in before we started tithing. Tithing freed us, and we give all the glory to God. He makes a way where there seems to be no way.

Who cursed you, then?  I don't think you can blame that one on God.

When we live outside of the way God desires us to live, not placing Him first, and doing it our own way---as many Christians do with parts of their lives, there is a curse in that...it is called 'trouble'. It sure felt like a curse, but after we took the step of faith and put our full trust in God for everything as our Jehovah Jireh, it took very little time for God to turn it all around and make us debt free.

God gets all the glory for that! He asks us to test Him and we sure did! His guarantees are solid!

I repeat....the lump leavens the whole

Holy means belonging to God, what ever is sanctified is set apart as belonging to God

Mammon is the means of exchange of the world system


It Belongs to the world system therefore mammon is unrighteous


For no other reason but that it belongs to the world

The same way we belonged to the world before being Born Again

The tenth, the 1st part of anything is representative of the whole and that which remains

Giving the 1st part as unto God sanctifies the rest, makes the unrighteous mammon sanctified because through your act of giving the 1st part ....you are saying what remains belongs to God as well even though it is under your stewardship

The curse is not on person but on that which remains in the world 

Tithing causes your finances to be blessed, it simply becomes more able to accomplish more with less, lasts longer and no subject to the curse in the world

Jesus called money unrighteous mammon

One must take note that although He spoke of it often... Jesus never handled money...everything He did was by the means of exchange of the Kingdom of Heaven...Faith!



Tithing is a statement saying I belong to the kingdom and my first and foremost means of exchange is faith and money is secondary

: gospel  Mon Sep 05, 2011 - 02:38:54
I repeat....the lump leavens the whole

Holy means belonging to God, what ever is sanctified is set apart as belonging to God

Mammon is the means of exchange of the world system


It Belongs to the world system therefore mammon is unrighteous


For no other reason but that it belongs to the world

The same way we belonged to the world before being Born Again

The tenth, the 1st part of anything is representative of the whole and that which remains

Giving the 1st part as unto God sanctifies the rest, makes the unrighteous mammon sanctified because through your act of giving the 1st part ....you are saying what remains belongs to God as well even though it is under your stewardship

The curse is not on person but on that which remains in the world  

Tithing causes your finances to be blessed, it simply becomes more able to accomplish more with less, lasts longer and no subject to the curse in the world

Jesus called money unrighteous mammon

One must take note that although He spoke of it often... Jesus never handled money...everything He did was by the means of exchange of the Kingdom of Heaven...Faith!



Tithing is a statement saying I belong to the kingdom and my first and foremost means of exchange is faith and money is secondary

Well said, gospel....manna!

I haven't read any of this yet so forgive my ignorance.   It would seem the greatest example of giving in the New Testament was to sell everything and pool the resources.   The only mention of "first day of week" giving was for the poor in Jerusalem.  Nothing new there.  What does bother me currently about my level of giving to the local congregation is that I am a recipient of her blessings (which are plentiful) without providing a proportional level of support.  (I use the excuse that it is for a season as we deal with debt..  God knows my heart and He is big enough to show me if I am being a good steward of His blessings or not)

: gospel  Mon Sep 05, 2011 - 02:38:54
I repeat....the lump leavens the whole

Holy means belonging to God, what ever is sanctified is set apart as belonging to God

Mammon is the means of exchange of the world system


It Belongs to the world system therefore mammon is unrighteous


For no other reason but that it belongs to the world

The same way we belonged to the world before being Born Again

The tenth, the 1st part of anything is representative of the whole and that which remains

Giving the 1st part as unto God sanctifies the rest, makes the unrighteous mammon sanctified because through your act of giving the 1st part ....you are saying what remains belongs to God as well even though it is under your stewardship

The curse is not on person but on that which remains in the world 

Tithing causes your finances to be blessed, it simply becomes more able to accomplish more with less, lasts longer and no subject to the curse in the world

Jesus called money unrighteous mammon

One must take note that although He spoke of it often... Jesus never handled money...everything He did was by the means of exchange of the Kingdom of Heaven...Faith!



Tithing is a statement saying I belong to the kingdom and my first and foremost means of exchange is faith and money is secondary

Gospel, that is really beautiful for those that believe that tithing is a law that remains in effect today.  But where is the command again that says the Christian Church is now under that law, the law to tithe 10% of our salary?  That is the issue here.  Is it a real Christian law or not?  If it is a law, show us the verse that says it is a law.  Where is it?

Peace and donkey hugs to you.

: Talking Donkey  Mon Sep 05, 2011 - 09:24:56

Peace and donkey hugs to you.

Looks like some favouritism going on!  ::giggle::

Malachi 3:9
9Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

The curse would be on the NATION, not the individual.

Galatians 3:13 "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us...

: Lively Stone  Mon Sep 05, 2011 - 09:34:37

: Talking Donkey  Mon Sep 05, 2011 - 09:24:56

Peace and donkey hugs to you.

Looks like some favouritism going on!  ::giggle::

I am so sorry ! Donkey hugs to you too.  And a donkey kiss too.

::kissing::

: Talking Donkey  Mon Sep 05, 2011 - 09:24:56

: gospel  Mon Sep 05, 2011 - 02:38:54
I repeat....the lump leavens the whole

Holy means belonging to God, what ever is sanctified is set apart as belonging to God

Mammon is the means of exchange of the world system


It Belongs to the world system therefore mammon is unrighteous


For no other reason but that it belongs to the world

The same way we belonged to the world before being Born Again

The tenth, the 1st part of anything is representative of the whole and that which remains

Giving the 1st part as unto God sanctifies the rest, makes the unrighteous mammon sanctified because through your act of giving the 1st part ....you are saying what remains belongs to God as well even though it is under your stewardship

The curse is not on person but on that which remains in the world 

Tithing causes your finances to be blessed, it simply becomes more able to accomplish more with less, lasts longer and no subject to the curse in the world

Jesus called money unrighteous mammon

One must take note that although He spoke of it often... Jesus never handled money...everything He did was by the means of exchange of the Kingdom of Heaven...Faith!



Tithing is a statement saying I belong to the kingdom and my first and foremost means of exchange is faith and money is secondary

Gospel, that is really beautiful for those that believe that tithing is a law that remains in effect today.  But where is the command again that says the Christian Church is now under that law, the law to tithe 10% of our salary?  That is the issue here.  Is it a real Christian law or not?  If it is a law, show us the verse that says it is a law.  Where is it?

Peace and donkey hugs to you.

Its not a law

I guess it just depends how much law you want.

Is tithing the only OT law we need to keep?

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Mon Sep 05, 2011 - 20:37:03
I guess it just depends how much law you want.

Is tithing the only OT law we need to keep?

Its no longer a law, but is still a working principle

Certain things Gods designed just happen to work no matter what system or name you want to apply to it

Tithing works if you work it

Too many people swear by it, too many prosperous and successful people will tell you their prosperity and success came about through tithing

It's a faith thing!

A person putting their belief into action in regards to their finances.

A person saying I may need this money for something else but I trust God's ability to meet my need more than I trust this money to meet my needs

...That's Faith!

and because it is... God will honor it

However you slice it, it's honorable!

At this point I have to say I have not always been a faithful tither

But when I have God has proven himself mightily

The year we were buying a home, we needed the money we were tithing toward the purchase but we tithed it anyway....

In the end no amount of money could buy the miracle that occurred for us in the transaction

Basically I am certain we got our home because we tithed.

Other times when we were not quite as faithful and used the tithe to make ends meet... we were not cursed but things we were trying to accomplish required more effort on our part and did not go quite as smoothly

We can debate details facts and figures all day but when one talks to some tithers, even if you do not agree with tithing, one still has to be impressed with their level of faith  

And I believe God honors faith according to Hebrews 11:6 and Romans 1:17

: gospel  Tue Sep 06, 2011 - 11:29:46

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Mon Sep 05, 2011 - 20:37:03
I guess it just depends how much law you want.

Is tithing the only OT law we need to keep?

Its no longer a law, but is still a working principle

Certain things Gods designed just happen to work no matter what system or name you want to apply to it

Tithing works if you work it

Too many people swear by it, too prosperous and successful people will tell you their prosperity and success came about through tithing

It's a faith thing,

a person putting their belief into action in regards to their finances.

A person saying I may need this money for something else but I trust God's ability to meet my need more than I trust this money to meet my needs

...That's Faith!

and because it is God will honor it

However you slice it, it's honorable

At this point I have to say I have not always been a faithful tither

But when I have God has proven himself mightily

The year we were buying a home, we needed the money we were tithing toward the purchase but we tithed it anyway....

In the end no amount of money could buy the miracle that occurred for us in the transaction

Basically I am certain we got our home because we tithed.

Other times when we were not quite as faithful and used the tithe to make ends meet... we were not cursed but things we were trying to accomplish required more effort on our part and did not go quite as smoothly

We can debate details facts and figures all day but when one talks to some tithers, even if you do not agree with tithing, one still has to be impressed with their level of faith 

And I believe God honors faith according to Hebrews 11:6 and Romans 1:17

That is outrageously good !!!  That's the way to preach it.

Peace

: gospel  Tue Sep 06, 2011 - 11:29:46

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Mon Sep 05, 2011 - 20:37:03
I guess it just depends how much law you want.

Is tithing the only OT law we need to keep?

Its no longer a law, but is still a working principle

Certain things Gods designed just happen to work no matter what system or name you want to apply to it

Tithing works if you work it

I totally and completely agree with your statement, gospel.  ::eek::

Tithing is no longer a law, but it is still a working principle.

As I said earlier in the thread, nobody objects to people setting a standard for themselves of 10%, and giving is both honorable and beneficial in a 'reaping and sowing' sort of way.

The only thing that has been objected to, is some insisting that tithing IS a law, and attempting to FORCE people to tithe, or putting a CURSE on those who are not tithing to their satisfaction.

Jarrod

Tithing is not a principle to begin with.  But there are GIVING principles in the word.

Tithing today is nothing but a scam.  It 100% man made.

The Biblical tithe was ALWAYS on God's miraculous increase of FOOD from crops and animals and NEVER on man's income.  To tithe on your income today has NOTHING to do with the Biblical tithe.

But I guess there are those that like to say they tithe today.  I guess it makes them feel good.  It's an ego booster for them.  But at the same time, it is wrong to associate tithing on income with the scriptures.

It is great to GIVE a tenth of your income.  It is wrong to call that tithing IF you are inferring the Biblical tithe.

: Talking Donkey  Tue Sep 06, 2011 - 20:21:52

: gospel  Tue Sep 06, 2011 - 11:29:46

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Mon Sep 05, 2011 - 20:37:03
I guess it just depends how much law you want.

Is tithing the only OT law we need to keep?

Its no longer a law, but is still a working principle

Certain things Gods designed just happen to work no matter what system or name you want to apply to it

Tithing works if you work it

Too many people swear by it, too prosperous and successful people will tell you their prosperity and success came about through tithing

It's a faith thing,

a person putting their belief into action in regards to their finances.

A person saying I may need this money for something else but I trust God's ability to meet my need more than I trust this money to meet my needs

...That's Faith!

and because it is God will honor it

However you slice it, it's honorable

At this point I have to say I have not always been a faithful tither

But when I have God has proven himself mightily

The year we were buying a home, we needed the money we were tithing toward the purchase but we tithed it anyway....

In the end no amount of money could buy the miracle that occurred for us in the transaction

Basically I am certain we got our home because we tithed.

Other times when we were not quite as faithful and used the tithe to make ends meet... we were not cursed but things we were trying to accomplish required more effort on our part and did not go quite as smoothly

We can debate details facts and figures all day but when one talks to some tithers, even if you do not agree with tithing, one still has to be impressed with their level of faith 

And I believe God honors faith according to Hebrews 11:6 and Romans 1:17

That is outrageously good !!!  That's the way to preach it.

Peace

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Tue Sep 06, 2011 - 21:38:35

: gospel  Tue Sep 06, 2011 - 11:29:46

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Mon Sep 05, 2011 - 20:37:03
I guess it just depends how much law you want.

Is tithing the only OT law we need to keep?

Its no longer a law, but is still a working principle

Certain things Gods designed just happen to work no matter what system or name you want to apply to it

Tithing works if you work it

I totally and completely agree with your statement, gospel.  ::eek::

Tithing is no longer a law, but it is still a working principle.

As I said earlier in the thread, nobody objects to people setting a standard for themselves of 10%, and giving is both honorable and beneficial in a 'reaping and sowing' sort of way.

The only thing that has been objected to, is some insisting that tithing IS a law, and attempting to FORCE people to tithe, or putting a CURSE on those who are not tithing to their satisfaction.

Jarrod

I do believe we have consensus at least among us and in the process maybe helped someone who might be looking for a balanced answer.

If a person teaches curses they are incorrect, for in Christ we have been delivered from the curse of the Law and every other curse as well.

But does tithing work for those who have the faith to honor it?

I must say I know far too many people with far too many extraordinary  testimonies of breakthroughs of every conceivable type, from healing to financial where tithing is what they credit through which God honored their faith in His ability to meet their needs.

One simply cannot discount the accounts of countless people who have trusted God through tithing and received breakthrough after breakthrough, year after year, after year

Manna to all for a great thread

One simply cannot discount the accounts of countless people who have trusted God through tithing and received breakthrough after breakthrough, year after year, after year

Can one discount the accounts of countless people who have trusted God but do NOT tithe and received breakthrough after breakthrough, year after year?

Can one discount the accounts of countless people who are atheists but have received breakthrough after breakthrough year after year?

Can one discount the accounts of countless people who have trusted God through tithing but never seem to get any breakthrough, struggling year after year after year?

It is the trick of a pastor to parade those who tithe and have a testimony they attribute to tithing.  The pastor never parades all the other tithers who don't have a good story to tell.  Is that not dishonest?

: garyarnold  Wed Sep 07, 2011 - 01:07:05
Tithing is not a principle to begin with.  But there are GIVING principles in the word.

Tithing today is nothing but a scam.  It 100% man made.

The Biblical tithe was ALWAYS on God's miraculous increase of FOOD from crops and animals and NEVER on man's income.  To tithe on your income today has NOTHING to do with the Biblical tithe.

But I guess there are those that like to say they tithe today.  I guess it makes them feel good.  It's an ego booster for them.  But at the same time, it is wrong to associate tithing on income with the scriptures.

It is great to GIVE a tenth of your income.  It is wrong to call that tithing IF you are inferring the Biblical tithe.

I think you might be hung up on the words.  If someone does the right thing and calls it by the wrong word, so what?

Whatever you want to call it, giving to others is beneficial, and doing so will help a person to prosper.  I call it "sowing and reaping," FWIW.

Jarrod

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Wed Sep 07, 2011 - 09:27:26

I think you might be hung up on the words.  If someone does the right thing and calls it by the wrong word, so what?

Whatever you want to call it, giving to others is beneficial, and doing so will help a person to prosper.  I call it "sowing and reaping," FWIW.

Jarrod

Very much hung up on the words.  The reason??  Because too many pastors teach tithing as a requirement, and when one calls their giving, "tithing," it can confuse those who believe you are doing what the Bible calls tithing.  It just helps the dishonest pastor continue with his lies.

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Wed Sep 07, 2011 - 09:27:26

: garyarnold  Wed Sep 07, 2011 - 01:07:05
Tithing is not a principle to begin with.  But there are GIVING principles in the word.

Tithing today is nothing but a scam.  It 100% man made.

The Biblical tithe was ALWAYS on God's miraculous increase of FOOD from crops and animals and NEVER on man's income.  To tithe on your income today has NOTHING to do with the Biblical tithe.

But I guess there are those that like to say they tithe today.  I guess it makes them feel good.  It's an ego booster for them.  But at the same time, it is wrong to associate tithing on income with the scriptures.

It is great to GIVE a tenth of your income.  It is wrong to call that tithing IF you are inferring the Biblical tithe.

I think you might be hung up on the words.  If someone does the right thing and calls it by the wrong word, so what?

Whatever you want to call it, giving to others is beneficial, and doing so will help a person to prosper.  I call it "sowing and reaping," FWIW.

Jarrod

Likewise...sowing and reaping Amen!

: garyarnold  Wed Sep 07, 2011 - 01:55:01
One simply cannot discount the accounts of countless people who have trusted God through tithing and received breakthrough after breakthrough, year after year, after year

Can one discount the accounts of countless people who have trusted God but do NOT tithe and received breakthrough after breakthrough, year after year?

Can one discount the accounts of countless people who are atheists but have received breakthrough after breakthrough year after year?

Can one discount the accounts of countless people who have trusted God through tithing but never seem to get any breakthrough, struggling year after year after year?

It is the trick of a pastor to parade those who tithe and have a testimony they attribute to tithing.  The pastor never parades all the other tithers who don't have a good story to tell.  Is that not dishonest?

You must've had a bad experience in this area...you're talking about pastors tricking people by parading tithers and all.

In my church tithing is taught, minus the curse, however no one knows who is or who is not tithing and even the pastor does not know nor does the tithes go to him.

In addition we never have services of any kind for the purpose of raising funds, building funds, youth funds. mission funds, church anniversaries, bake sales, chicken dinners, fish dinners, book sales, rummage sales...NO SERVICES TO RAISE MONEY at all  

If led, we are taught that anyone can bless anyone at any time one is led by The Holy Spirit through what is familiarly called the pentecostal handshake.  ::smile::

Aside from that our church, though a small fellowship has birthed many many ministries and is involved in many good works overseas on several continents so when we sow into our church we know it is going towards supporting those missions and ministries.

Perhaps NOT BELIEVING a church is good ground to sow in is the problem some people are having with sowing, tithing or whatever you want to call it

Even at that when you are taught you are suppose to receive it as teaching from the Lord in the same way when you give you are supposed to give as unto the Lord

If you are in a Church where you do not believe God is speaking or working through the ministry, you are probably there for the wrong reason and is probably a place you probably shouldn't be.

: gospel  Wed Sep 07, 2011 - 11:14:34
Perhaps NOT BELIEVING a church is good ground to sow in is the problem some people are having with sowing, tithing or whatever you want to call it

I would think there are more than a few churches that ARE NOT good ground to sow money or resources into.  I've certainly had that problem.

Instead, now, I give directly to people who need something.  I find it is about 60,000 times more effective than handing it off to the bishop.  Being in charge of your own giving makes the experience more real.  It also elicits thankfulness in people you wouldn't otherwise see.  And it opens doors to relationships that would not otherwise exist.

Jarrod

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Wed Sep 07, 2011 - 21:00:12
I would think there are more than a few churches that ARE NOT good ground to sow money or resources into.  I've certainly had that problem.

Instead, now, I give directly to people who need something.  I find it is about 60,000 times more effective than handing it off to the bishop.  Being in charge of your own giving makes the experience more real.  It also elicits thankfulness in people you wouldn't otherwise see.  And it opens doors to relationships that would not otherwise exist.

Jarrod

Same here, Jarrod.  Jesus said when you help the poor or needy you are helping Him.

I have pretty much given up on the local churches.  Maybe the Spirit will direct me to a local church in the future, but for now, there are many I have attended that I will no longer step foot in.  I'm sure there are many good churches out there that teach the truth, and that handle the money from donations in a good way.  I just haven't found one yet.

When I became a Christian, I moved with the only Christian friend I had.  He asked if I tithed.  I told him, how could I?  That is $270 a month!  He told me, he made less money than me and he had a new fully furnished house and a new car and I was making more money than him and I did not have any debts exept a $200 a month rent (my car was paid).  He got my attention.  I started tithing and the blessing was so ridiculous, so overwhelming, that I started giving 18%.  You might think 18% is a lot, but it is not.  Check it out.

Immediatelly after I started tithing, the Lord got me a two bedroom apartment (paid 100% by the Lord), the Lord also paid for my gasoline, my phone, my electricity, for the two maids that came to clean, cook and and do the dishes in my apartment, he also paid for my water, the rental car, and on top of that, the Lord gave me $999 a month (in 1984!) for food ...tax free!!!!.  All of that was tax free and above my salary because I was on travel for almost 3 years.  So, you see, I could have been giving the Lord 100% of my salary and still live like a king.  So, giving 18% was really stingy in that situation.

During that period of time, I remember when my tithing was $270, I gave the Lord $700 one month and within two weeks I got a check for an award that after taxes I had $725 in my pocket, and I remember saying to myself, no matter what I do, I cant outgive God.  Another time I met a hispanic pastor in Burger King and he was with a friend that just quit his job to go preach the gospel in Mexico.  The man had 5 children, one with cancer and in spite of that, quit his job in the USA to go preaching to Mexico.  I remembered having $2,600 in savings, and I wrote that missionary a check for $2,000.  Within a month two companies wanted to hire me for 33% higher salary.  I said no to both companies.  My employer heard of the offers and decided to increase my salary 33% (unawares I had said no to the offers). 

This is how I got promoted.  My boss came to me and told me:  "They asked me if I thought you were worthy of a promotiion and I said no.  They asked the division director if you were worthy of a promotion and he said no.  They asked the department head if he thought you were worthy of a promotion and he said no.  But the Technical Director is forcing us to promote you and from this week on, you are now a GS-13. 

If God is for us?  Who can be against us?

This next part is the best part of my testimony.

After 2.6 years under that huge blessing, I decided I have been good enough (nonsense!!!!) and God would not mind (he didn't) if I did not give him anything for a year because I needed to save money to buy a house.  I did not give the Lord one single cent in a year.  Two weeks after I stopped giving to God, my travel was cancelled.  I had $5,000 in the bank when I started saving for a house. After a year saving, I did not save anything.  As a matter of fact, I lost the $5,000 I had at the beginning.  That was a great lesson for me.  I know what it feels like giving to the Lord and what it feels like not giving to the Lord. And it is far more fun to give, than not to give to the Lord.

The NT verses of 2 Cor 9:6-7 are true.  He who sows plenty, shall reap plenty. He who sows little, shall reap little.

I have not been preaching against giving to the Lord.  I have been teaching it is wrong to call it a law. 

Peace

Immediatelly after I started tithing, the Lord got me a two bedroom apartment (paid 100% by the Lord), the Lord also paid for my gasoline, my phone, my electricity, for the two maids that came to clean, cook and and do the dishes in my apartment, he also paid for my water, the rental car, and on top of that, the Lord gave me $999 a month (in 1984!) for food ...tax free!!!!.

What did your landlord say when The Lord came down from heaven and paid for your 2-bedroom apartment?  Did the Lord accompany you to the gas station to pay for your pas?  Did the Lord send a check, or cash, when paying your phone and electric bills?  How did he paid for the maids?

What a bunch of bull.

WE ARE ALREADY BLESSED WITH ALL SPIRITUAL BLESSINGS.
Ephesians 1:3 (KJV)  "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Wed Sep 07, 2011 - 21:00:12

: gospel  Wed Sep 07, 2011 - 11:14:34
Perhaps NOT BELIEVING a church is good ground to sow in is the problem some people are having with sowing, tithing or whatever you want to call it

I would think there are more than a few churches that ARE NOT good ground to sow money or resources into.  I've certainly had that problem.

Instead, now, I give directly to people who need something.  I find it is about 60,000 times more effective than handing it off to the bishop.  Being in charge of your own giving makes the experience more real.  It also elicits thankfulness in people you wouldn't otherwise see.  And it opens doors to relationships that would not otherwise exist.

Jarrod

Not taking anything away from what you said but ....

I have a friend who once touted to me the great work and giving of the Freemasons to which I reminded him that giving that does not glorify Jesus is not the same as giving that does...in other words my giving in my name means nothing in the advancement of the Kingdom

Giving in the name of Jesus causes the heart of some people to become tender toward the mention of His name and having been softened many are enabled and subsequently drawn by God unto a Saving knowledge of Jesus as The Christ, The Son of the Living God

So giving is one way HE IS LIFTED UP

Not saying your giving isn't doing that, I don't know and how you give is up to you, I'm just sharing how I understand it

And I must reiterate that if one is in a church where one questions whether or not it is good ground, it is very questionable why one would be there.

I for one would not

Any fellowship I attend and or tithe to would have to be involved in some aspect of missions, international evangelism, prison, street, shut in, convalescent, crisis intervention, disaster relief or medical services.......SOMETHING, done in His Name advancing the Kingdom, occupying new territory one person at a time

My thoughts ::shrug:: 

: garyarnold  Thu Sep 08, 2011 - 10:52:17
Immediatelly after I started tithing, the Lord got me a two bedroom apartment (paid 100% by the Lord), the Lord also paid for my gasoline, my phone, my electricity, for the two maids that came to clean, cook and and do the dishes in my apartment, he also paid for my water, the rental car, and on top of that, the Lord gave me $999 a month (in 1984!) for food ...tax free!!!!.

What did your landlord say when The Lord came down from heaven and paid for your 2-bedroom apartment?  Did the Lord accompany you to the gas station to pay for your pas?  Did the Lord send a check, or cash, when paying your phone and electric bills?  How did he paid for the maids?

What a bunch of bull.

WE ARE ALREADY BLESSED WITH ALL SPIRITUAL BLESSINGS.
Ephesians 1:3 (KJV)  "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Manna to you Talking Donkey that was an excellent testimony simply excellent!

You are an inspiration to the Body of Christ!

I'm personally sick of testimonies by tithers.  There are MORE people with the same type of testimony that DON'T tithe.

Pastors like to have these tithers give their testimonies.  But do those same pastors ever have those who tithe but never seemed to be blessed up in front of the church giving their testimony?

Christians try to tie their blessings to tithing and it cannot be.  NO ONE is tithing per the Biblical commands.

I have NEVER tithed but always been a giver to those in need.  I have NO financial debts.  NONE.  House paid for with cash.  New 2010 luxury SUV paid for with cash.  Always helping others.  I AM NOT BRAGGING OR BOASTING.  I am merely saying whether one tithes or not has NOTHING to do with blessings.  When one GIVES from the heart, I believe they will be blessed one way or another.  When one calls it tithing, they are insulting God.  The Biblical tithe ALWAYS came from GOD'S hand, not man's income.

I follow God's Word not the false religion doctrines taught by so many pastors.

: garyarnold  Thu Sep 08, 2011 - 12:55:34
I'm personally sick of testimonies by tithers.  There are MORE people with the same type of testimony that DON'T tithe.

Pastors like to have these tithers give their testimonies.  But do those same pastors ever have those who tithe but never seemed to be blessed up in front of the church giving their testimony?

Christians try to tie their blessings to tithing and it cannot be.  NO ONE is tithing per the Biblical commands.

I have NEVER tithed but always been a giver to those in need.  I have NO financial debts.  NONE.  House paid for with cash.  New 2010 luxury SUV paid for with cash.  Always helping others.  I AM NOT BRAGGING OR BOASTING.  I am merely saying whether one tithes or not has NOTHING to do with blessings.  When one GIVES from the heart, I believe they will be blessed one way or another.  When one calls it tithing, they are insulting God.  The Biblical tithe ALWAYS came from GOD'S hand, not man's income.

I follow God's Word not the false religion doctrines taught by so many pastors.

Well alrigh-tee then!

Obviously you are not scared of a curse...keep your money and do with as you please

But why be so angry and bitter against those who want to do as they believe?

Soften your heart, tithe some tenderness why dontcha?   ::shrug::

Ahm jes sayin

: gospel  Thu Sep 08, 2011 - 14:32:27

Well alrigh-tee then!

Obviously you are not scared of a curse...keep your money and do with as you please

But why be so angry and bitter against those who want to do as they believe?

Soften your heart, tithe some tenderness why dontcha?   ::shrug::

Ahm jes sayin

Galatians 3:13 "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us...

: garyarnold  Thu Sep 08, 2011 - 15:00:54

: gospel  Thu Sep 08, 2011 - 14:32:27

Well alrigh-tee then!

Obviously you are not scared of a curse...keep your money and do with as you please

But why be so angry and bitter against those who want to do as they believe?

Soften your heart, tithe some tenderness why dontcha?   ::shrug::

Ahm jes sayin

Galatians 3:13 "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us...

I was trying to win tithers over by sharing my testimony, as it is written...

1Cor 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

I guess we can't win all the listeners.  I failed miserably.  But then again, Noah preached 120 years without getting one single convert.  We are called to be faithful, not successful.

Peace

: Talking Donkey  Thu Sep 08, 2011 - 17:42:13
I was trying to win tithers over by sharing my testimony, as it is written...

1Cor 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

I guess we can't win all the listeners.  I failed miserably.  But then again, Noah preached 120 years without getting one single convert.  We are called to be faithful, not successful.

Peace

::amen!:: and Amen!

Tithing is required.

: Zane Dow  Fri Sep 09, 2011 - 11:41:54
Tithing is required.

Says who?  Can you give any scripture for this?

: Zane Dow  Fri Sep 09, 2011 - 11:41:54
Tithing is required.

Uh oh..... here we go again!  ::doh::

garyarnold, manna to you my brother ::nodding::, my spirit is so sick of hearing this false teaching on tithing, and the magical gifts it brings to the giver ::gift::....all part of the false teaching in the so called "word of faith" teachings, "name it and claim it","tithe and be prosperous"

There is no supernatural formula to our blessings from the Lord, He knows what we need, as a father knows what to give to his child ::kissing::, not because the child did something to deserve it ::baby::, but because the Father loved his child unconditionally, and blessed us for our needs and just because He loves us....Not because we TITHED!!! ::frustrated::

: Debrah  Fri Sep 16, 2011 - 20:46:57
garyarnold, manna to you my brother ::nodding::, my spirit is so sick of hearing this false teaching on tithing, and the magical gifts it brings to the giver ::gift::....all part of the false teaching in the so called "word of faith" teachings, "name it and claim it","tithe and be prosperous"

There is no supernatural formula to our blessings from the Lord, He knows what we need, as a father knows what to give to his child ::kissing::, not because the child did something to deserve it ::baby::, but because the Father loved his child unconditionally, and blessed us for our needs and just because He loves us....Not because we TITHED!!! ::frustrated::

In the NT, we are supposed to give as Abraham and Jacob gave... AS WE PURPOSED IN OUR HEARTS, not because we have to, but because we want to.

But this NT principle has not gone away...

2Cor 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

That verse 6 is indeed and remains... a NT principle (and has nothing to do with the modern unbiblical definition of tithing).

Peace