Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Mat. 28:16-20 (KJV)
Questions
1. Had Jesus been to the cross before this conversation with the Eleven?
2. Is this a command or just a suggestion on Jesus part?
3. How is this to be carried out?
4. Does it show anywhere in scripture that this was carried out?
The risen Christ was uttering the words of Matthew Chapter Twenty-eight. At that time He already had been given all power in heaven and earth; Matthew 28:18. Acts 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.At this present time I know of no Christian nation.
At a future time nations instead of individuals will be witnessed to in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Presently we do everything in Jesus' name. Colossians 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
Isaiah 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed (In tribulation), she brought forth her children.
Revelation 15:4, . . all nations shall go and worship before God. This will all occur during the Lord's Day, or what is know as the millennium; Jesus' thousand year reign.
Larry
Let me chew on that for a bit. This is the first I have ever heard this answer to that passage. Not sure I follow
APPEARANCES OF JESUS AFTER HIS RESURRECTION (In order of appearance)
To Mary Magdalene John 20:14; Mark 16:9
To the other women Matt 28:9
To Peter 1 Cor 15:5; Luke 24:34
To the two disciples on the way to Emmaus Mark 16:12-13; Luke 24:13-32
In the same evening to the Apostles in the absence of Thomas 1 Cor 15:5; Mark 16:14; Luke 24:36; John 20:19-24
To the apostles eight days later with Thomas present John 20:24-29
By the Sea of Galilee to Peter, Thomas, Nathanael, James, John and two other disciples John 21:1-14
To the Apostles on a mountain in Galilee Matt 28:16
To more than 500 brethren at once 1 Cor 15:6 Matt 28:16-20
To James his half brother 1 Cor 15:7
In all, he spent 40 days with his Apostles Acts 1:3; 1 Cor 15:7
To his Apostles at his ascension Luke 24:50-51; Acts 1:9-10
Last of all he appeared to Paul 1 Cor 15:8; Acts 9:3-5; 22:6-10
Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee
"Eleven Disciples
Anyone have an answer for 2,3 and 4
: yogi bear Wed Aug 24, 2011 - 13:01:03
Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Mat. 28:16-20 (KJV)
Questions
1. Had Jesus been to the cross before this conversation with the Eleven?
2. Is this a command or just a suggestion on Jesus part?
3. How is this to be carried out?
4. Does it show anywhere in scripture that this was carried out?
Pat answer:
It's all old covenant!
It's a command.
Now we can argue about whether all believers are commanded, or just the eleven He was talking to. ::noworries::
Jarrod
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Wed Aug 24, 2011 - 22:37:35
It's a command.
Now we can argue about whether all believers are commanded, or just the eleven He was talking to. ::noworries::
Jarrod
Jarrod
Who were the some who "Doubted
: yogi bear Wed Aug 24, 2011 - 13:01:03
Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Mat. 28:16-20 (KJV)
Questions
1. Had Jesus been to the cross before this conversation with the Eleven?
Yes, He was resurrected.
2. Is this a command or just a suggestion on Jesus part?
Yes, "Go" and "teach, baptizing" are commands.
3. How is this to be carried out?
This is carried out every day by serious Christians who go where God has commanded them to go and who speak and teach by word and example what He wants them to speak and teach.
4. Does it show anywhere in scripture that this was carried out?
It started with the hundreds of disciples of Jesus and then quickly accelerated to 3000 salvations in one day as recorded in Acts and carried on from there to this very day.
: Lively Stone Wed Aug 24, 2011 - 23:19:05
: yogi bear Wed Aug 24, 2011 - 13:01:03
Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Mat. 28:16-20 (KJV)
Questions
1. Had Jesus been to the cross before this conversation with the Eleven?
Yes, He was resurrected.
2. Is this a command or just a suggestion on Jesus part?
Yes, "Go" and "teach, baptizing" are commands.
3. How is this to be carried out?
This is carried out every day by serious Christians who go where God has commanded them to go and who speak and teach by word and example what He wants them to speak and teach.
4. Does it show anywhere in scripture that this was carried out?
It started with the hundreds of disciples of Jesus and then quickly accelerated to 3000 salvations in one day as recorded in Acts and carried on from there to this very day.
Correct and worthy of manna.
Yogi, the commission Jesus gave to evangelize individuals was in Mark 16:15. And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature (All creation or men).
Mark 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister.
1. Had Jesus been to the cross before this conversation with the Eleven?
Yes.
2. Is this a command or just a suggestion on Jesus part?
They were commissioned to go to everyone. Paul said it like this in 1 Corinthians 9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
3. How is this to be carried out?
Earlier Jesus sent out the twelve by twos to Israel before He died, but later to the eleven, instructions signs followed them in Mark 16:17-18. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
4. Does it show anywhere in scripture that this was carried out?
Again in Colossians 1:23 . . the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven. .
: Lively Stone Wed Aug 24, 2011 - 23:19:05
: yogi bear Wed Aug 24, 2011 - 13:01:03
Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Mat. 28:16-20 (KJV)
Questions
1. Had Jesus been to the cross before this conversation with the Eleven?
Yes, He was resurrected.
2. Is this a command or just a suggestion on Jesus part?
Yes, "Go" and "teach, baptizing" are commands.
3. How is this to be carried out?
This is carried out every day by serious Christians who go where God has commanded them to go and who speak and teach by word and example what He wants them to speak and teach.
4. Does it show anywhere in scripture that this was carried out?
It started with the hundreds of disciples of Jesus and then quickly accelerated to 3000 salvations in one day as recorded in Acts and carried on from there to this very day.
This is by far the best answer that has been given. However the answer to question 2 is not quite right. In verses 19 and 20 only "go" and "make disciples" are commands. Grammatically, "baptizing" and "teaching" are not commands as such, but in fact are modifiers to the command "make disciples". Jesus is not telling the eleven to make disciples and then baptize them and teach them; rather Jesus is telling the eleven how to make disciples. He didn't tell them to make disciples and then baptize and teach them; instead He told them how to make disciples.
Suppose I had a roof that had been damaged in one way or another or it was just getting old and needed some upkeep. I might call a roofing contractor to give me and estimate of what it would cost. I might tell him, "I want you to fix my roof, inspecting it completely, replacing any rotted or otherwise damaged wood and putting new shingles on the entire roof." Grammatically, "inspecting", "replacing" and "putting" are modifiers describing what I mean by "fix", It is a description of what how to fix the roof.
So far we are getting some good answers but I was hoping to see a passage related to this where this was actually carried out by the eleven. Is there not one passage that shows this was done?
: yogi bear Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 12:37:41
So far we are getting some good answers but I was hoping to see a passage related to this where this was actually carried out by the eleven. Is there not one passage that shows this was done?
No, for they were joined by the hundreds of disciples in fulfilling that command from that point to this day. Read the entire New Testament, and especially Acts, which will attest to their obedience.
Yes Lively I realize there are many passages that relate to this but I am looking for the first time this was put into play after the words were given. I am trying to see if I can find out if this was physical and spiritual combined or if it was only spiritual. I am trying to see just how the Apostles took this command and preformed it. I was hoping there would be an example see in int the bible where it was established so as I can begin to learn more of what is being taught on this subject. I am hoping to get this clear in my head.
: yogi bear Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 12:37:41
So far we are getting some good answers but I was hoping to see a passage related to this where this was actually carried out by the eleven. Is there not one passage that shows this was done?
The day of Pentecost.
: Jimmy Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 14:25:58
: yogi bear Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 12:37:41
So far we are getting some good answers but I was hoping to see a passage related to this where this was actually carried out by the eleven. Is there not one passage that shows this was done?
The day of Pentecost.
That is Acts 2 is it not? I was thinking that was the first it came into play. Let me study that a bit and get back to you
: yogi bear Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 14:20:32
Yes Lively I realize there are many passages that relate to this but I am looking for the first time this was put into play after the words were given. I am trying to see if I can find out if this was physical and spiritual combined or if it was only spiritual. I am trying to see just how the Apostles took this command and preformed it. I was hoping there would be an example see in int the bible where it was established so as I can begin to learn more of what is being taught on this subject. I am hoping to get this clear in my head.
Matthew 28:18-2018 Jesus came and told his disciples, "I have been given all authority in heaven and on earth. 19 Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. 20 Teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I have given you. And be sure of this: I am with you always, even to the end of the age.
: Jimmy Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 06:37:51
This is by far the best answer that has been given. However the answer to question 2 is not quite right. In verses 19 and 20 only "go" and "make disciples" are commands. Grammatically, "baptizing" and "teaching" are not commands as such, but in fact are modifiers to the command "make disciples". Jesus is not telling the eleven to make disciples and then baptize them and teach them; rather Jesus is telling the eleven how to make disciples. He didn't tell them to make disciples and then baptize and teach them; instead He told them how to make disciples.
Suppose I had a roof that had been damaged in one way or another or it was just getting old and needed some upkeep. I might call a roofing contractor to give me and estimate of what it would cost. I might tell him, "I want you to fix my roof, inspecting it completely, replacing any rotted or otherwise damaged wood and putting new shingles on the entire roof." Grammatically, "inspecting", "replacing" and "putting" are modifiers describing what I mean by "fix", It is a description of what how to fix the roof.
"Go, baptizing" is a complete command that tells the disciples to do two things.
If the courts took your understanding of the mandate, you would not have a leg to stand on in court should your errant roofer ignore the inclusions.
: yogi bear Wed Aug 24, 2011 - 22:27:16
Anyone have an answer for 2,3 and 4
Matthew 25:29 For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.
EVERYONE WHO HAS - we can debate ad nauseum about what we have, some of us are clear on that as the bible very clearly states what we have been given in salvation, YET EVEN THAT is debated
HE WILL HAVE ABUNDANCE - abundance of what? What we have been given, the keys to the kingdom, authority over the works of the enemy, the authority to use the Name of Jesus, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and access to His Fruit and His Gifts
WHOEVER DOES NOT HAVE - Have what? An UNDERSTANDING of what they HAVE BEEN GIVEN
WHAT HE HAS WILL BE TAKEN AWAY - Use it or lose it! The more people ARE NOT TAUGHT what they Have been Given in Christ, as long as WHAT WE HAVE BEEN GIVEN is belittled, mocked, stiffed, de-emphasized, overlooked under valued, hindered and depreciated instead of appreciated
.....the people, churches and nations who do so and teach others to do the same will lose an ability to ever understand it much less the ability to operate in it
Somebody had to say it, might as well be me ::shrug::
: gospel Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 14:45:04
: yogi bear Wed Aug 24, 2011 - 22:27:16
Anyone have an answer for 2,3 and 4
Matthew 25:29 For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.
EVERYONE WHO HAS - we can debate ad nauseum about what we have, some of us are clear on that as the bible very clearly states what we have been given in salvation, YET EVEN THAT is debated
HE WILL HAVE ABUNDANCE - abundance of what? What we have been given, the keys to the kingdom, authority over the works of the enemy, the authority to use the Name of Jesus, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and access to His Fruit and His Gifts
WHOEVER DOES NOT HAVE - Have what? An UNDERSTANDING of what they HAVE BEEN GIVEN
WHAT HE HAS WILL BE TAKEN AWAY - Use it or lose it! The more people ARE NOT TAUGHT what they Have been Given in Christ, as long as WHAT WE HAVE BEEN GIVEN is belittled, mocked, stiffed, de-emphasized, overlooked under valued, depreciated instead of appreciated and hindered, the people, churches and nations who do so will lose an ability to ever understand it much less the ability to operate in it
Somebody had to say it, might as well be me ::shrug::
(http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee267/Floatingaxe/Shrug/shrugging0.jpg)
Might as well!
: Lively Stone Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 14:47:21
: gospel Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 14:45:04
: yogi bear Wed Aug 24, 2011 - 22:27:16
Anyone have an answer for 2,3 and 4
Matthew 25:29 For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.
EVERYONE WHO HAS - we can debate ad nauseum about what we have, some of us are clear on that as the bible very clearly states what we have been given in salvation, YET EVEN THAT is debated
HE WILL HAVE ABUNDANCE - abundance of what? What we have been given, the keys to the kingdom, authority over the works of the enemy, the authority to use the Name of Jesus, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and access to His Fruit and His Gifts
WHOEVER DOES NOT HAVE - Have what? An UNDERSTANDING of what they HAVE BEEN GIVEN
WHAT HE HAS WILL BE TAKEN AWAY - Use it or lose it! The more people ARE NOT TAUGHT what they Have been Given in Christ, as long as WHAT WE HAVE BEEN GIVEN is belittled, mocked, stiffed, de-emphasized, overlooked under valued, depreciated instead of appreciated and hindered, the people, churches and nations who do so will lose an ability to ever understand it much less the ability to operate in it
Somebody had to say it, might as well be me ::shrug::
(http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee267/Floatingaxe/Shrug/shrugging0.jpg)
Might as well!
I must say your selection of pics is consistently quite impressive!
: P.F. Wed Aug 24, 2011 - 22:34:17
: yogi bear Wed Aug 24, 2011 - 13:01:03
Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Mat. 28:16-20 (KJV)
Questions
1. Had Jesus been to the cross before this conversation with the Eleven?
2. Is this a command or just a suggestion on Jesus part?
3. How is this to be carried out?
4. Does it show anywhere in scripture that this was carried out?
Pat answer:
It's all old covenant!
He says I am with you till the end of the world.
Was this fulfilled via the disciples?
It cannot be unless they still live. If they live in spirit, they cannot baptize another.
So it can only be fulfilled via a future generation.
1. Had Jesus been to the cross before this conversation with the Eleven?
He said this after been raised from the dead.
Gospel I am sorry but it looks like you forgot the passages we were discussing so let me re post them for you
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Now to refresh your memory the question is how do the eleven carry out there marching orders. If they were to be making disciples baptizing them just how are they doing this is Acts 2 where it is seen they carried it out for the first time?
: yogi bear Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 14:31:45
: Jimmy Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 14:25:58
: yogi bear Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 12:37:41
So far we are getting some good answers but I was hoping to see a passage related to this where this was actually carried out by the eleven. Is there not one passage that shows this was done?
The day of Pentecost.
That is Acts 2 is it not? I was thinking that was the first it came into play. Let me study that a bit and get back to you
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Matthew 3:11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Acts 8:12
But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Are you thinking of the twelve of Luke 9:6 And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where?
As for the eleven we must go to the commission in Mark 16:15, "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."
Romans 10:18. "But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world."
Colossians 1:23. ". . the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister."
Larry I am thinking of the eleven just as it says in Matthew 28:16 but you are correct it is echoed in Mark 16:15 but you stopped short for some reason the context says
14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. 15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. 20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
So it even goes more into how important the command to baptize was according to the scripture you point me to. Thank you for helping me see that. Now I just have to see if this is water or not see I am learning. Thank you brother LARRY for opening my eyes to the truth. Let me ponder a little more on this.
: yogi bear Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 15:02:47
Gospel I am sorry but it looks like you forgot the passages we were discussing so let me re post them for you
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Now to refresh your memory the question is how do the eleven carry out there marching orders. If they were to be making disciples baptizing them just how are they doing this is Acts 2 where it is seen they carried it out for the first time?
That's why I answered it that way....
because they carried out the orders by using what they were given.
And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
Its like this in the church today, believers are in the place where they are appointed to be, in a church fellowship in which they worship Jesus, yet and still some doubt.
Jesus has to reiterate the situation to them so they can appreciate what has transpired
All power has been given to Jesus in heaven and earth
THEREFORE GO
See it's not just that all power was given to Jesus but He said
Because all power is given Him, THEREFORE, in other words because of that reason GO
Do all those things because ALL POWER / EXOUSIA, meaning AUTHORITY HAS BEEN GIVEN TO HIM
So I AM AUTHORIZING YOU to act in my stead,
YOU HAVE THE AUTHORITY to use my name to
DO WHAT I WOULD DO...its all pretty clear
Unless in your question you're really trying to say something.
If that is the case
Could you say clearly what you are asking ....for maybe I'm not understanding
Otherwise you should re-read Lively's answer which was very well stated and in it she responded directly to each of your questions
: Lively Stone Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 14:42:21
: Jimmy Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 06:37:51
This is by far the best answer that has been given. However the answer to question 2 is not quite right. In verses 19 and 20 only "go" and "make disciples" are commands. Grammatically, "baptizing" and "teaching" are not commands as such, but in fact are modifiers to the command "make disciples". Jesus is not telling the eleven to make disciples and then baptize them and teach them; rather Jesus is telling the eleven how to make disciples. He didn't tell them to make disciples and then baptize and teach them; instead He told them how to make disciples.
Suppose I had a roof that had been damaged in one way or another or it was just getting old and needed some upkeep. I might call a roofing contractor to give me and estimate of what it would cost. I might tell him, "I want you to fix my roof, inspecting it completely, replacing any rotted or otherwise damaged wood and putting new shingles on the entire roof." Grammatically, "inspecting", "replacing" and "putting" are modifiers describing what I mean by "fix", It is a description of what how to fix the roof.
"Go, baptizing" is a complete command that tells the disciples to do two things.
If the courts took your understanding of the mandate, you would not have a leg to stand on in court should your errant roofer ignore the inclusions.
Lively,
I am sorry but you are wrong. It has nothing to do with courts. It really doesn't have anything to do with theology. It is just plain good old high school English grammar. Something that I am not sure they even bother to teach anymore. And in this case it is good old Greek grammar as well.
: Jimmy Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 18:31:58
: Lively Stone Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 14:42:21
: Jimmy Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 06:37:51
This is by far the best answer that has been given. However the answer to question 2 is not quite right. In verses 19 and 20 only "go" and "make disciples" are commands. Grammatically, "baptizing" and "teaching" are not commands as such, but in fact are modifiers to the command "make disciples". Jesus is not telling the eleven to make disciples and then baptize them and teach them; rather Jesus is telling the eleven how to make disciples. He didn't tell them to make disciples and then baptize and teach them; instead He told them how to make disciples.
Suppose I had a roof that had been damaged in one way or another or it was just getting old and needed some upkeep. I might call a roofing contractor to give me and estimate of what it would cost. I might tell him, "I want you to fix my roof, inspecting it completely, replacing any rotted or otherwise damaged wood and putting new shingles on the entire roof." Grammatically, "inspecting", "replacing" and "putting" are modifiers describing what I mean by "fix", It is a description of what how to fix the roof.
"Go, baptizing" is a complete command that tells the disciples to do two things.
If the courts took your understanding of the mandate, you would not have a leg to stand on in court should your errant roofer ignore the inclusions.
Lively,
I am sorry but you are wrong. It has nothing to do with courts. It really doesn't have anything to do with theology. It is just plain good old high school English grammar. Something that I am not sure they even bother to teach anymore. And in this case it is good old Greek grammar as well.
I am gifted in grammar and have worked as a literary editor. Believe me, 'baptizing' is in a future progressive tense and can be used in an imperative. That is what this is.
: Lively Stone Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 19:01:40
: Jimmy Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 18:31:58
: Lively Stone Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 14:42:21
: Jimmy Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 06:37:51
This is by far the best answer that has been given. However the answer to question 2 is not quite right. In verses 19 and 20 only "go" and "make disciples" are commands. Grammatically, "baptizing" and "teaching" are not commands as such, but in fact are modifiers to the command "make disciples". Jesus is not telling the eleven to make disciples and then baptize them and teach them; rather Jesus is telling the eleven how to make disciples. He didn't tell them to make disciples and then baptize and teach them; instead He told them how to make disciples.
Suppose I had a roof that had been damaged in one way or another or it was just getting old and needed some upkeep. I might call a roofing contractor to give me and estimate of what it would cost. I might tell him, "I want you to fix my roof, inspecting it completely, replacing any rotted or otherwise damaged wood and putting new shingles on the entire roof." Grammatically, "inspecting", "replacing" and "putting" are modifiers describing what I mean by "fix", It is a description of what how to fix the roof.
"Go, baptizing" is a complete command that tells the disciples to do two things.
If the courts took your understanding of the mandate, you would not have a leg to stand on in court should your errant roofer ignore the inclusions.
Lively,
I am sorry but you are wrong. It has nothing to do with courts. It really doesn't have anything to do with theology. It is just plain good old high school English grammar. Something that I am not sure they even bother to teach anymore. And in this case it is good old Greek grammar as well.
I am gifted in grammar and have worked as a literary editor. Believe me, 'baptizing' is in a future progressive tense and can be used in an imperative. That is what this is.
::smile::
Why not focus on the text instead of who is "gifted in grammar?"
Is a disciple necessarily a Christian in this passage?
: P.F. Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 19:35:43
Why not focus on the text instead of who is "gifted in grammar?"
Is a disciple necessarily a Christian in this passage?
Sounds like a plan to me! ::shrug::
1Cor 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
If we put together the four gospels... this is how they will end.... (I believe the 500 witnesses are in this group). Here is how that happened...
Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, And he led them out as far as to Bethany, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. And Jesus came and spoke unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
So then after the Lord had spoken these things unto them, he lifted up his hands, and blessed them. And it came to pass, while he blessed them, while they beheld, he was taken up; he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven, he was received up into heaven, and a cloud received him out of their sight, and sat on the right hand of God. And they worshipped him. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
And they returned with great joy unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a Sabbath day's journey. And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following.
And there are also many other things, many other signs, which Jesus truly did, in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: And, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. Amen.
THE END
Every time someone was baptized in the Bible, it was never done in the literal name of "Father, Son and Holy Ghost
: P.F. Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 19:35:43
Why not focus on the text instead of who is "gifted in grammar?"
Is a disciple necessarily a Christian in this passage?
Sounds like a plan to me! ::shrug::
: P.F. Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 19:35:43
Why not focus on the text instead of who is "gifted in grammar?"
Is a disciple necessarily a Christian in this passage?
By all means! Those 'gifted in grammar' are doing just that!
Yes, the disciples were Christians.
: Lively Stone Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 19:51:47
: P.F. Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 19:35:43
Why not focus on the text instead of who is "gifted in grammar?"
Is a disciple necessarily a Christian in this passage?
Those 'gifted in grammar' are free to focus on text.
Yes, the disciples were Christians.
What scriptures back up your assertion?
: P.F. Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 20:03:02
: Lively Stone Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 19:51:47
: P.F. Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 19:35:43
Why not focus on the text instead of who is "gifted in grammar?"
Is a disciple necessarily a Christian in this passage?
Those 'gifted in grammar' are free to focus on text.
Yes, the disciples were Christians.
What scriptures back up your assertion?
John 20:22When Jesus had said this, He breathed on them. He said, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
This is the moment the disciples received the indwelling spirit, which sealed their salvation based on their faith in the Son of God, who carried their sins to the cross.
: Lively Stone Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 20:35:41
: P.F. Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 20:03:02
: Lively Stone Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 19:51:47
: P.F. Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 19:35:43
Why not focus on the text instead of who is "gifted in grammar?"
Is a disciple necessarily a Christian in this passage?
Those 'gifted in grammar' are free to focus on text.
Yes, the disciples were Christians.
What scriptures back up your assertion?
John 20:22
When Jesus had said this, He breathed on them. He said, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
This is the moment the disciples received the indwelling spirit, which sealed their salvation based on their faith in the Son of God, who carried their sins to the cross.
that is an interesting statement can you put it along side
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Acts 1:4-8 (KJV)
Question if they received the indwelling Spirit in John 20:22 then what was Acts 1 talking about it is future not present
: yogi bear Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 21:10:59
: Lively Stone Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 20:35:41
: P.F. Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 20:03:02
: Lively Stone Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 19:51:47
: P.F. Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 19:35:43
Why not focus on the text instead of who is "gifted in grammar?"
Is a disciple necessarily a Christian in this passage?
Those 'gifted in grammar' are free to focus on text.
Yes, the disciples were Christians.
What scriptures back up your assertion?
John 20:22
When Jesus had said this, He breathed on them. He said, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
This is the moment the disciples received the indwelling spirit, which sealed their salvation based on their faith in the Son of God, who carried their sins to the cross.
that is an interesting statement can you put it along side
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Acts 1:4-8 (KJV)
Question if they received the indwelling Spirit in John 20:22 then what was Acts 1 talking about it is future not present
Just as every new believer receives the indwelling Holy Spirit at the moment of faith in Jesus Christ as personal Saviour, there is a subsequent baptism of Holy Spirit. This is perfectly demonstrated in these two events. Pentecost had yet to come. It is the same for us. We are saved and receive the indwelling Spirit, yet there is another baptism we need to seek, which is the empowering of the Holy Spirit, our own personal Pentecost.
: Lively Stone Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 20:35:41
: P.F. Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 20:03:02
: Lively Stone Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 19:51:47
: P.F. Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 19:35:43
Why not focus on the text instead of who is "gifted in grammar?"
Is a disciple necessarily a Christian in this passage?
Those 'gifted in grammar' are free to focus on text.
Yes, the disciples were Christians.
What scriptures back up your assertion?
John 20:22
When Jesus had said this, He breathed on them. He said, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
This is the moment the disciples received the indwelling spirit, which sealed their salvation based on their faith in the Son of God, who carried their sins to the cross.
I am not asking about the 11 who became Apostles. I am referencing the passage in the OP. We are to make disciples. Or in the KJV to teach all nations. Are these that are taught or these disciples necessarily Christians?
Was the disciple Judas necessarily a Christian because he was a disciple?
Can You show me the passages that the Apostles taught that indwelling separate from the holy spirit baptism please. I do really see where that fits in.
: P.F. Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 21:47:25
: Lively Stone Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 20:35:41
: P.F. Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 20:03:02
: Lively Stone Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 19:51:47
: P.F. Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 19:35:43
Why not focus on the text instead of who is "gifted in grammar?"
Is a disciple necessarily a Christian in this passage?
Those 'gifted in grammar' are free to focus on text.
Yes, the disciples were Christians.
What scriptures back up your assertion?
John 20:22
When Jesus had said this, He breathed on them. He said, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
This is the moment the disciples received the indwelling spirit, which sealed their salvation based on their faith in the Son of God, who carried their sins to the cross.
I am not asking about the 11 who became Apostles. I am referencing the passage in the OP. We are to make disciples. Or in the KJV to teach all nations. Are these that are taught or these disciples necessarily Christians?
I guess I don't know what you mean. The disciples were followers of Jesus Christ. They were believers. It's pretty straightforward.
Was the disciple Judas necessarily a Christian because he was a disciple?
Judas had something else in his heart beside faith.
: yogi bear Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 21:48:52
Can You show me the passages that the Apostles taught that indwelling separate from the holy spirit baptism please. I do really see where that fits in.
Acts 19
Christians in Ephesus Are Filled with the Holy Spirit 1 While Apollos was in the city of Corinth, Paul went through the hill country to get to the city of Ephesus. He found a few followers there. 2 He asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you put your trust in Christ?
: Lively Stone Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 21:54:03
: P.F. Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 21:47:25
: Lively Stone Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 20:35:41
: P.F. Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 20:03:02
: Lively Stone Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 19:51:47
: P.F. Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 19:35:43
Why not focus on the text instead of who is "gifted in grammar?"
Is a disciple necessarily a Christian in this passage?
Those 'gifted in grammar' are free to focus on text.
Yes, the disciples were Christians.
What scriptures back up your assertion?
John 20:22
When Jesus had said this, He breathed on them. He said, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
This is the moment the disciples received the indwelling spirit, which sealed their salvation based on their faith in the Son of God, who carried their sins to the cross.
I am not asking about the 11 who became Apostles. I am referencing the passage in the OP. We are to make disciples. Or in the KJV to teach all nations. Are these that are taught or these disciples necessarily Christians?
I guess I don't know what you mean. The disciples were followers of Jesus Christ. They were believers. It's pretty straightforward.
Was the disciple Judas necessarily a Christian because he was a disciple?
Judas had something else in his heart beside faith.
Judas was a disciple regardless of what was in his heart. Did he not follow Jesus? Was he not called a disciple?
Believer and disciple are similar but not necessarily the same.
: yogi bear Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 14:20:32
Yes Lively I realize there are many passages that relate to this but I am looking for the first time this was put into play after the words were given. I am trying to see if I can find out if this was physical and spiritual combined or if it was only spiritual. I am trying to see just how the Apostles took this command and preformed it. I was hoping there would be an example see in int the bible where it was established so as I can begin to learn more of what is being taught on this subject. I am hoping to get this clear in my head.
This appears to be the first time after the command was given by Jesus.
Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
38 - Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
41 - Then they that gladly received his word were baptized:
Baptism was physical, we see that in these verses below.
Matt 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
6 - And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
11 - I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire.
(the above (baptism of HG) happens to believers after Pentecost, so at that time, it was prophecy) This is also spiritual
13 - Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
Blessings
: P.F. Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 22:06:42
: Lively Stone Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 21:54:03
: P.F. Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 21:47:25
: Lively Stone Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 20:35:41
: P.F. Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 20:03:02
: Lively Stone Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 19:51:47
: P.F. Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 19:35:43
Why not focus on the text instead of who is "gifted in grammar?"
Is a disciple necessarily a Christian in this passage?
Those 'gifted in grammar' are free to focus on text.
Yes, the disciples were Christians.
What scriptures back up your assertion?
John 20:22
When Jesus had said this, He breathed on them. He said, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
This is the moment the disciples received the indwelling spirit, which sealed their salvation based on their faith in the Son of God, who carried their sins to the cross.
I am not asking about the 11 who became Apostles. I am referencing the passage in the OP. We are to make disciples. Or in the KJV to teach all nations. Are these that are taught or these disciples necessarily Christians?
I guess I don't know what you mean. The disciples were followers of Jesus Christ. They were believers. It's pretty straightforward.
Was the disciple Judas necessarily a Christian because he was a disciple?
Judas had something else in his heart beside faith.
Judas was a disciple regardless of what was in his heart. Did he not follow Jesus? Was he not called a disciple?
Believer and disciple are similar but not necessarily the same.
We assemble in church with people who claim to be disciples, too, but are not. The Bible distinctly paints a picture of these types as tares among wheat.
Every man or woman is like the "housemaster" of a house, kingdom, dominion, domain, or realm. The "tares" are unclean spirits which are in the house, or field, etc., of the realm and were sown by the wicked one(s). The great High Priest sends his messenger-angels to sever the wicked ones and tares out from the houses and fields when any housemaster, (believer) has turned his house-kingdom-realm over to the True Master and High Priest Yeshua. When the house, field, kingdom, vessel, etc., is fully cleansed by the Son, (Master of the reins and heart) the Son then hands the kingdom over to the Father, (and the consummation of the aionos-age is complete and "time is no more").
Matthew 13:40-50
40. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the consummation of this aionos.
41. The Son of man shall send forth his messengers-angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42. And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
44. Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
45. Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
46. Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.
47. Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48. Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49. So shall it be at the consummation of the aionos: the messengers-angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked out from the midst (GSN#3319 mesos) of the just,
50. And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Original Strong's Ref. #3319
Romanized mesos
Pronounced mes'-os
from GSN3326; middle (as an adjective or [neuter] noun):
KJV--among, X before them, between, + forth, mid[-day, -night], midst, way.
2 Thessalonians 2:7 LIT
7.
|3588| the
|1063| For
|3466| mystery
|2235| already
|1754| works
|3588| of
|0458| lawlessness,
|3440| only
|3588| he
|2722| restraining
|0737| now,
|2193| until
|1537| out of
|9999| {the}
|3319| middle
|1096| it comes.
2 Thessalonians 2:7 TUA
7. To garmusterion ede energeitai tes anomias, monon hokatechon arti heos ek mesou genetai.
7. Because the mystery of lawlessness even now is energized, merely the-he-it restrained [is] for now, until out from the midst it becomes.
Therefore:
Matthew 28:19-20
19. Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, even the Holy Spirit:
20. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the consummation of the aionos-age.
Name of the Father - Old Testament Water of the WORD
Name of the Son - New Testament Water of the WORD
John 17:5-8 KJV
5. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
: yogi bear Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 21:48:52
Can You show me the passages that the Apostles taught that indwelling separate from the holy spirit baptism please. I do really see where that fits in.
The difference is what you just stated in your question its really that simple...
1. Indwelling
2. Immersion
Now don't get me wrong I am not presuming that Lively and I exactly agree but the fact is, we realize there is a difference, where you do not seem too.
Just to be a little more plain about what I believe
I believe new believers upon the moment of accepting Jesus as Lord are immersed into the Body of Christ, the Body of Believers, they instantly become Lively Stones ::smile::
Those who want the fullness of what God has to offer for the purpose of witnessing, equipping and being of service ( ministry )to others, need to be Filled with Holy Spirit Indwelling Presence for empowerment to do the work of the ministry.
What I described is the same difference as
1. A well of water in us springing up into everlasting life. - Salvation
( see Jn 4:14 )
2. Rivers of Living Water flowing out of us - Empowerment and equipped for ministry ( see Jn 7:38)
So I see the former as Baptism, it happens in the heart, the Holy Spirit baptizes us into Christ by profession of His Name, hence the phrase Baptized into the Name. Without this part water is just an empty ritual for the Holy Spirit only moves upon those whom are cut to the heart, circumcised in the spirit, by means of the two edged sword, the Word of God ( see Heb 4:12)
IT IS A SPIRITUAL BAPTISM and has nothing at all to do with water!
Water will not hurt it but neither will it add to it
It's the ceremony that's fitting for a believer, just like wedding ceremony is fitting for 2 people in love
The wedding ceremony does not engender the love, but its the other way around.
We're in love so we want to get married, we can get married without the ceremony yet we will still be married
You can get saved without the baptism, you will still be saved, but you should have a ceremony
So we have 2 manifestations of the Spirit
1. A well springing up within us and
2. a river flowing out
the former is our personal salvation...
the latter I see as the infilling, as when a cup is infilled to overflowing and its not just for one person but more than enough for the purpose of sharing with others through the work of the ministry, teaching, evangelizing, prophesying, pastoring, building planting, governing etc etc..... THE WORK
i.e Being about Our Father's Business
Hence
Acts 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.
: yogi bear Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 21:48:52
Can You show me the passages that the Apostles taught that indwelling separate from the holy spirit baptism please. I do really see where that fits in.
Marc, the thread OP has changed to include receiving the Holy Spirit, and so I now respond to that question. If the following is not what you want, please just delete it.
A statement I received in debate.
Receiving the Holy Spirit-- same thing as Jesus giving eternal life
happens as soon as you entrust Jesus with your salvation..
unearned, unmerited, unfavoured.
Below are observances I've noted in scripture.
Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Question - Were the disciples saved at this time in Acts 1:8? And certainly the Holy Spirit was in others of the Old Testament. And did the disciples receive the Holy Spirit at Pentecost? of course they did. Does that promise all future believers to receive Him when they believe?
John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Question - Who is of the world that cannot receive the Holy Spirit when He comes? It is all unbelievers, wouldn't you agree?
Act 8:14-17
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Question - Were these at Jerusalem saved who received the word of God?
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
Question - Why would they pray to receive the Holy Ghost if He came automatically with salvation? And they must be saved (Not of the world) to receive the Holy Ghost.
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Question - Why were those at Jerusalem baptized unless they were believers, and again why did they receive the Holy Spirit after the laying on of hands instead of when they believed?
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. No laying on of hands here.
Acts 10:44-48 How did Peter know they were filled with the Holy Spirit below? He heard them speaking in tongues. And these were not yet baptized, but they were saved or they could not have received the Holy Spirit.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Acts 19:2 He (Paul) said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?
Question - If Paul knew all received the Holy Spirit when they are born to God, why ask the question?
Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Question - Were these saved who were baptized yet?
Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Question - Again, why was it necessary that Paul lay hands on them if they automatically receive the Holy Ghost when they believe?
2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. There is no mention that all believers have received the Holy Spirit.
The job of the Holy Spirit was to John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment, and to the believer in John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Question - What is "water" is this verse?
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
Below you will find the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, and the Holy Spirit.
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
Luke 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? We as children must ask?
: gospel Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 05:30:33
: yogi bear Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 21:48:52
Can You show me the passages that the Apostles taught that indwelling separate from the holy spirit baptism please. I do really see where that fits in.
The difference is what you just stated in your question its really that simple...
1. Indwelling
2. Immersion
Now don't get me wrong I am not presuming that Lively and I exactly agree but the fact is, we realize there is a difference, where you do not seem too.
Just to be a little more plain about what I believe
I believe new believers upon the moment of accepting Jesus as Lord are immersed into the Body of Christ, the Body of Believers, they instantly become Lively Stones ::smile::
Those who want the fullness of what God has to offer for the purpose of witnessing, equipping and being of service ( ministry )to others, need to be Filled with Holy Spirit Indwelling Presence for empowerment to do the work of the ministry.
What I described is the same difference as
1. A well of water in us springing up into everlasting life. - Salvation
( see Jn 4:14 )
2. Rivers of Living Water flowing out of us - Empowerment and equipped for ministry ( see Jn 7:38)
So I see the former as Baptism, it happens in the heart, the Holy Spirit baptizes us into Christ by profession of His Name, hence the phrase Baptized into the Name. Without this part water is just an empty ritual for the Holy Spirit only moves upon those whom are cut to the heart, circumcised in the spirit, by means of the two edged sword, the Word of God ( see Heb 4:12)
IT IS A SPIRITUAL BAPTISM and has nothing at all to do with water!
Water will not hurt it but neither will it add to it
It's the ceremony that's fitting for a believer, just like wedding ceremony is fitting for 2 people in love
The wedding ceremony does not engender the love, but its the other way around.
We're in love so we want to get married, we can get married without the ceremony yet we will still be married
You can get saved without the baptism, you will still be saved, but you should have a ceremony
So we have 2 manifestations of the Spirit
1. A well springing up within us and
2. a river flowing out
the former is our personal salvation...
the latter I see as the infilling, as when a cup is infilled to overflowing and its not just for one person but more than enough for the purpose of sharing with others through the work of the ministry, teaching, evangelizing, prophesying, pastoring, building planting, governing etc etc..... THE WORK
i.e Being about Our Father's Business
Hence
Acts 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.
: Lively Stone Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 19:01:40
: Jimmy Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 18:31:58
: Lively Stone Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 14:42:21
: Jimmy Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 06:37:51
This is by far the best answer that has been given. However the answer to question 2 is not quite right. In verses 19 and 20 only "go" and "make disciples" are commands. Grammatically, "baptizing" and "teaching" are not commands as such, but in fact are modifiers to the command "make disciples". Jesus is not telling the eleven to make disciples and then baptize them and teach them; rather Jesus is telling the eleven how to make disciples. He didn't tell them to make disciples and then baptize and teach them; instead He told them how to make disciples.
Suppose I had a roof that had been damaged in one way or another or it was just getting old and needed some upkeep. I might call a roofing contractor to give me and estimate of what it would cost. I might tell him, "I want you to fix my roof, inspecting it completely, replacing any rotted or otherwise damaged wood and putting new shingles on the entire roof." Grammatically, "inspecting", "replacing" and "putting" are modifiers describing what I mean by "fix", It is a description of what how to fix the roof.
"Go, baptizing" is a complete command that tells the disciples to do two things.
If the courts took your understanding of the mandate, you would not have a leg to stand on in court should your errant roofer ignore the inclusions.
Lively,
I am sorry but you are wrong. It has nothing to do with courts. It really doesn't have anything to do with theology. It is just plain good old high school English grammar. Something that I am not sure they even bother to teach anymore. And in this case it is good old Greek grammar as well.
I am gifted in grammar and have worked as a literary editor. Believe me, 'baptizing' is in a future progressive tense and can be used in an imperative. That is what this is.
Both "baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit " and "teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you" (in the English and the Greek) are participial phrases. Participial phrases, like prepositional phrases, do not stand alone. The are not independent clauses or sentences but are modifiers. In this case "baptizing" and "teaching" are the means of making disciples. In fact in the Greek, the only imperative is the verb "μαθητευσατε" which is translated as "make disciples". The Greek word "πορευθεντες" is also a participle meaning "going" or "in going" and strickly speaking is not an imperative either.
: P.F. Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 19:35:43
Why not focus on the text instead of who is "gifted in grammar?"
Is a disciple necessarily a Christian in this passage?
The focus here is not on who is "gifited in grammar" but rather on the grammar of the text. Without a proper application of the grammar, there is no way to know what is being said. Oftentimes subtle but different interpretations arise because of confusion about the grammar. Matt 28:19-20 is a perfect example. The participles "baptizing" and "teaching" is not a statement about what is to be done to disciples, rather it is stating the means to make disciples, that is, the process to make disciples . The difference is profound.
And in fact if the participle "πορευθεντες" which is almost always translate there as the imperative "go" is treated as the participle it actually is then the verse would be read as.
"In going, therefore, make disciples of all nations....."
That makes for an interesting subtle shift in the interpretation also.
"Go, baptizing and teaching" is a command. Jesus didn't just say "Go", but he said to go and do.
Making an argument about this is futile. We are to go, make disciples, and baptize and teach.
('Baptizing' and 'teaching' are not participles, but gerunds.)
: larry2 Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 05:50:50
: yogi bear Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 21:48:52
Can You show me the passages that the Apostles taught that indwelling separate from the holy spirit baptism please. I do really see where that fits in.
Marc, the thread OP has changed to include receiving the Holy Spirit, and so I now respond to that question. If the following is not what you want, please just delete it.
A statement I received in debate.
Receiving the Holy Spirit-- same thing as Jesus giving eternal life
happens as soon as you entrust Jesus with your salvation..
unearned, unmerited, unfavoured.
Below are observances I've noted in scripture.
Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Question - Were the disciples saved at this time in Acts 1:8? And certainly the Holy Spirit was in others of the Old Testament. And did the disciples receive the Holy Spirit at Pentecost? of course they did. Does that promise all future believers to receive Him when they believe?
I do believe that most of these questions relate to a fundamental (mis)understanding bout the role of the Holy Spirit in the lives of men. In asking whether the disciples (I assume here you mean the eleven to whom Jesus was speaking) were saved at that time. My answer to that is yes, but in the same manner as all the saved under the OT. Was Abraham saved? Yes. Was David saved? Yes. Were the Remnant that Paul spoke of saved? Yes. But again, they were OT saints. Is there a difference? Not in the fact of their salvation, but certainly in benefits attributed to them by virtue of being saved. Baptism in the Holy Spirit is strictly a NT phenomenon. In fact, baptism in the Holy Spirit, which is the same as the Indwelling Holy Spirit, is the signature difference between those saved under the OT and those saved under the NT.
Does that mean that the Holy Spirit was inactive under the OT? Of course not. But under the OT the Holy Spirit never indwelt the believer. However the Holy Spirit was active from the very outset and is first mentioned as coming upon men in Exodus 28. There as elsewhere in the OT, such "coming upon" or "filling with" was always an "equipping work" and not a "saving work". Some will argue that the Holy Spirit did work redemptively in the OT, but I believe otherwise. I believe that all the OT texts that allegedly teach of saving work of the Holy Spirit in OT times do not actually support that idea.
Thus I believe that the indwelling Holy Spirit is a uniquely post-pentecostal, New Testament role of the Holy Spiriit. So to your question of whether the disciples were saved at the time that Jesus spoke to them in Acts 1:8, I would answer yes. Did they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit at that time? I don't believe so. In fact, the Bible never says when that occurred. Some argue that it happened at the occasion of Acts 2:4. I would argue against that. The events of Acts 2:4 are quite similar to many other events described in the OT and consist only of the "empowering" or "equipping" work of the Holy Spirit. An OT counterpart to Acts 2:4 is found in Num 11:25. In neither case is there any indication of regeneration and sanctification, which are the new work of the Holy Spirit in the NT. So then, where and/or when do we read of the first occurance of the new work of regeneration and sanctification? Acts 2:38 presents the imparting of the gift of the Holy Spirit, i.e., the indwelling Holy Spirit.
With that I will quit. But perhaps it will shed some light on the other questions that you asked.
I would add one other point here. Just as Acts 2:4 presents the empowering or equipping work of the Holy Spirit and not the saving work of the Holy Spirit, so also Acts 10:44 presents the equipping not the saving work of the Holy Spirit.
: Lively Stone Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 08:40:24
"Go, baptizing and teaching" is a command. Jesus didn't just say "Go", but he said to go and do.
Making an argument about this is futile. We are to go, make disciples, and baptize and teach.
('Baptizing' and 'teaching' are not participles, but gerunds.)
Gerunds are verb forms, usally with the ending "ing" used as nouns, that is gerunds may be used wherever a noun may be used such as a subjec, a predicate noun, an object of a verb or a preposition or an appositive. And gerunds are not commands.
"Baptizing" and "teaching" are not used as nouns; rather they participles.
Matthew 13:52
52. Then said he unto them, Therefore every SCRIBE (GSN#1122) which is DISCIPLED (GSN#3100) INTO (GSN#1519 "eis") the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an HOUSEMASTER, (GSN#3617) which bringeth forth out of his thesaurus-treasure things new and old.
Strong's Greek Definition for #1122
1122 // grammateuv // grammateus // gram-mat-yooce' //
from 1121 ; TDNT - 1:740,127; n m
AV - scribe 66, townclerk 1; 67
1) a clerk, scribe, esp.a public servant, secretary, recorder,
whose office and influence differed in different states
2) in the Bible, a man learned in the Mosaic law and in the sacred
writings, an interpreter, teacher. Scribes examined the more
difficult and subtle questions of the law; added to the Mosaic
law decisions of various kinds thought to elucidate its meaning
and scope, and did this to the detriment of religion. Since the
advice of men skilled in the law was needed in the examination in
the causes and the solution of the difficult questions, they were
enrolled in the Sanhedrin; and are mentioned in connection with
the priests and elders of the people. See a Bible Dictionary for
more information on the scribes.
3) a religious teacher: so instructed that from his learning and
ability to teach advantage may redound to the kingdom of heaven.
http://www.apostolic-churches.net/bible/strongs/ref/?stgh=greek&stnm=1122 (http://www.apostolic-churches.net/bible/strongs/ref/?stgh=greek&stnm=1122)
Original Strong's Ref. #3100
Romanized matheteuo
Pronounced math-ayt-yoo'-o
from GSN3101; intransitively, to become a pupil; transitively, to disciple, i.e. enrol as scholar:
KJV--be disciple, instruct, teach.
Original Strong's Ref. #3101
Romanized mathetes
Pronounced math-ay-tes'
from GSN3129; a learner, i.e. pupil:
KJV--disciple.
Original Strong's Ref. #3617
Romanized oikodespotes
Pronounced oy-kod-es-pot'-ace
from GSN3624 and GSN1203; the head of a family:
KJV--goodman (of the house), householder, master of the house.
::eatingpopcorn:
: Jimmy Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 09:42:17
: Lively Stone Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 08:40:24
"Go, baptizing and teaching" is a command. Jesus didn't just say "Go", but he said to go and do.
Making an argument about this is futile. We are to go, make disciples, and baptize and teach.
('Baptizing' and 'teaching' are not participles, but gerunds.)
Gerunds are verb forms, usally with the ending "ing" used as nouns, that is gerunds may be used wherever a noun may be used such as a subjec, a predicate noun, an object of a verb or a preposition or an appositive. And gerunds are not commands.
"Baptizing" and "teaching" are not used as nouns; rather they participles.
These gerunds are verbs included in an imperative statement. There is no wiggle room in Jesus' command. He has commanded each of his followers to go out in the world and make disciples, baptizing and teaching them His ways.
: Lively Stone Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 10:38:36
: Jimmy Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 09:42:17
: Lively Stone Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 08:40:24
"Go, baptizing and teaching" is a command. Jesus didn't just say "Go", but he said to go and do.
Making an argument about this is futile. We are to go, make disciples, and baptize and teach.
('Baptizing' and 'teaching' are not participles, but gerunds.)
Gerunds are verb forms, usally with the ending "ing" used as nouns, that is gerunds may be used wherever a noun may be used such as a subjec, a predicate noun, an object of a verb or a preposition or an appositive. And gerunds are not commands.
"Baptizing" and "teaching" are not used as nouns; rather they participles.
These gerunds are verbs included in an imperative statement. There is no wiggle room in Jesus' command. He has commanded each of his followers to go out in the world and make disciples, baptizing and teaching them His ways.
That is but another of the corrupting influences of the Calvinst/Reformed theology, namely that one must become a disciple before they can even be taught. Ridiculous. It is in the teaching that one comes to faith by hearing (Rom 10:17) and it is baptizing that one receives forgiveness of sin and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38).
They are not gerunds. And in the Greek it is even more apparent since the Greek, like Latin and unlike English, has an adverbial participle.
As I indicated, in the Greek, not even the word "go" is not in the imperative. It also is a participle. Yes, they are to make disciples. But it is specifically in going, baptizing and teaching that they do so. Going is a prerequiste; baptizing and teaching is the process for making disciples.
A preferred translation of Matt 28:18-20 would be,
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mat 28:19 Therefore in going, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you, make disciples of all nations.
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mat 28:19 Therefore in going, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you, make disciples of all nations.
And the makes a difference how?
In not going, not baptizing, not teaching you WILL NOT MAKE DISCIPLES
Seriously what is all the hub bub about grammar?
Why not discuss making disciples? ::headscratch::
: gospel Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 11:51:24
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mat 28:19 Therefore in going, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you, make disciples of all nations.
And the makes a difference how?
In not going, not baptizing, not teaching you WILL NOT MAKE DISCIPLES
Seriously what is all the hub bub about grammar?
Why not discuss making disciples? ::headscratch::
Really?? I guess nothing to some of us that way it can say what we want it to say but to others more seriously wanting to study what it says and have it to say what it says I would guess that grammar means a lot. Seriously word study does play into what is being said does it not.
: yogi bear Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 12:16:52
: gospel Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 11:51:24
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mat 28:19 Therefore in going, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you, make disciples of all nations.
And the makes a difference how?
In not going, not baptizing, not teaching you WILL NOT MAKE DISCIPLES
Seriously what is all the hub bub about grammar?
Why not discuss making disciples? ::headscratch::
Really?? I guess nothing to some of us that way it can say what we want it to say but to others more seriously wanting to study what it says and have it to say what it says I would guess that grammar means a lot. Seriously word study does play into what is being said does it not.
And thus the rift between the many denominations.
Everyone tends to fall inside of a group of believers who interpret scripture in a particular way. The basis of their interpretations of scripture can be based upon grammar or many sources such as anthropology.
IN fact the notion that Jesus was a carpenter is based upon a translation and not actual fact.
In the area of Nazareth there wasn't a lot of wood around for construction materials...only stone. But in Europe where the bible was translated into english a stone mason was a highly respectable tradesman and a carpenter was a low skill or common skill construction worker. And since the translators didn't want people to get the wrong impression about who Jesus was in his trade they translated it as a carpenter instead of actually what he did for a living.
: yogi bear Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 12:16:52
: gospel Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 11:51:24
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mat 28:19 Therefore in going, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you, make disciples of all nations.
And the makes a difference how?
In not going, not baptizing, not teaching you WILL NOT MAKE DISCIPLES
Seriously what is all the hub bub about grammar?
Why not discuss making disciples? ::headscratch::
Really?? I guess nothing to some of us that way it can say what we want it to say but to others more seriously wanting to study what it says and have it to say what it says I would guess that grammar means a lot. Seriously word study does play into what is being said does it not.
In lieu of giving another long winded response I'll refer to you the response I made to Jarrod yesterday here
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/bible-study-of-the-carnalspiritual-christian-as-spoken-of-by-the-apostle-paul/msg1054613881/#msg1054613881 (http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/bible-study-of-the-carnalspiritual-christian-as-spoken-of-by-the-apostle-paul/msg1054613881/#msg1054613881)
Basically it says that when people get into definitions down to the letter they often lose the heart, intent and purpose of what God is saying to us.
Case in point...
The Pharisees, Lawyers and Scribes were very well educated, they knew the scriptures far better than any of us and they perfectly understood Aramaic and Hebrew better than you and I ever will or could ever dream to
Nevertheless for the most part aside from a small number of their elite group, they didn't understand Jesus AT ALL!
Yet others who were basically illiterate, uneducated with no access to the Holy Scrolls perfectly understood Jesus
Point?
Defining words is often highly over-rated, another subtle form of pride, humanism and idolatry, and an attempt to foster the view that only the highly educated can truly understand the scriptures
When actually the truth is the exact opposite for I find that
the more exaltation, emphasis and reliance one places on ones intellectual prowess its usually an indication of less understanding NOT more and the very word of God bears that out as a fact.
If you like I can cite numerous scriptural references in that regard ::smile::
Just so it's clear I think definitions are good especially for understanding each other's understanding of what we mean by some of the terms we use
and obviously sometimes and occasionally someone totally and completely misunderstands a term but what we have been seeing in this thread is unproductive bordering on the ridiculous, silly knick knack pally wack foolishness ::juggle::
I disagree obviously, but what's new? It only seems like foolishness to each of us when it goes against what our preconceptions are usually.
I agree with what JohnDB stated above.
: Jaime Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 13:29:25
I disagree obviously, but what's new? It only seems like foolishness to each of us when it goes against what our preconceptions are usually.
I agree with what JohnDB stated above.
It's foolishness ala Bill Clinton-esque when you get to the point of saying things like "it depends on the definition of "is"
Debating go and in going its utter foolishness and probably an indication that someone isn't going because they don't believe the command is to go
Just say that!
I don't believe we are commanded to go.....THEN play with the definition to suit your belief
OBVIOUSLY AND CLEARLY ...directly following the Infilling, They went out witnessing, and not even under their own power and even not speaking something they had planned to say, nor had they planned to say anything....
Yet it resulted in 3000 disciples in one day
AND more added every day according to the Book commonly known as Acts, formally referred to as The Acts of the Apostles, which I like to call The Acts of the Holy Spirit through the Apostles
: Jimmy Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 11:05:18
: Lively Stone Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 10:38:36
: Jimmy Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 09:42:17
: Lively Stone Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 08:40:24
"Go, baptizing and teaching" is a command. Jesus didn't just say "Go", but he said to go and do.
Making an argument about this is futile. We are to go, make disciples, and baptize and teach.
('Baptizing' and 'teaching' are not participles, but gerunds.)
Gerunds are verb forms, usally with the ending "ing" used as nouns, that is gerunds may be used wherever a noun may be used such as a subjec, a predicate noun, an object of a verb or a preposition or an appositive. And gerunds are not commands.
"Baptizing" and "teaching" are not used as nouns; rather they participles.
These gerunds are verbs included in an imperative statement. There is no wiggle room in Jesus' command. He has commanded each of his followers to go out in the world and make disciples, baptizing and teaching them His ways.
That is but another of the corrupting influences of the Calvinst/Reformed theology, namely that one must become a disciple before they can even be taught. Ridiculous. It is in the teaching that one comes to faith by hearing (Rom 10:17) and it is baptizing that one receives forgiveness of sin and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38).
A disciple is ONE BEING TAUGHT. That is neither Calvinist or Reformed. It is the bible.
They are not gerunds. And in the Greek it is even more apparent since the Greek, like Latin and unlike English, has an adverbial participle.
As I indicated, in the Greek, not even the word "go" is not in the imperative. It also is a participle. Yes, they are to make disciples. But it is specifically in going, baptizing and teaching that they do so. Going is a prerequiste; baptizing and teaching is the process for making disciples.
A preferred translation of Matt 28:18-20 would be,
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mat 28:19 Therefore in going, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you, make disciples of all nations.
I couldn't care less about the grammar, but I do understand Jesus. I desire to obey Him by doing what He commands. Those who choose to differ with His words may be trying to get out from under. I am going, baptizing and making disciples in Jesus' name.
My question is if Jesus commanded one to baptize that has to be referring to water baptism correct?? If not how will I or anyone baptize in spirit just how does one do that if it is not in water? So I see in Acts 2:38 where Peter carried out the command from Matthew 28:19 and Mark 16:16 and in doing he made it clear that in this baptism is where the spirit is given.
Think hard about that if Peter did not baptize here with water how did he baptize with spirit.
I think it's wonderful you're bringing up grammar. My grammar died several years ago at the age of 90. She was such a sweet woman, and made some of the best clam chowder you've ever tasted. So, though I don't think of her that often any more, I have to say that my grammar was, and still is very important to me.
: Lively Stone Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 13:54:28
: Jimmy Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 11:05:18
: Lively Stone Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 10:38:36
: Jimmy Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 09:42:17
: Lively Stone Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 08:40:24
"Go, baptizing and teaching" is a command. Jesus didn't just say "Go", but he said to go and do.
Making an argument about this is futile. We are to go, make disciples, and baptize and teach.
('Baptizing' and 'teaching' are not participles, but gerunds.)
Gerunds are verb forms, usally with the ending "ing" used as nouns, that is gerunds may be used wherever a noun may be used such as a subjec, a predicate noun, an object of a verb or a preposition or an appositive. And gerunds are not commands.
"Baptizing" and "teaching" are not used as nouns; rather they participles.
These gerunds are verbs included in an imperative statement. There is no wiggle room in Jesus' command. He has commanded each of his followers to go out in the world and make disciples, baptizing and teaching them His ways.
That is but another of the corrupting influences of the Calvinst/Reformed theology, namely that one must become a disciple before they can even be taught. Ridiculous. It is in the teaching that one comes to faith by hearing (Rom 10:17) and it is baptizing that one receives forgiveness of sin and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38).
A disciple is ONE BEING TAUGHT. That is neither Calvinist or Reformed. It is the bible.
They are not gerunds. And in the Greek it is even more apparent since the Greek, like Latin and unlike English, has an adverbial participle.
As I indicated, in the Greek, not even the word "go" is not in the imperative. It also is a participle. Yes, they are to make disciples. But it is specifically in going, baptizing and teaching that they do so. Going is a prerequiste; baptizing and teaching is the process for making disciples.
A preferred translation of Matt 28:18-20 would be,
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mat 28:19 Therefore in going, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you, make disciples of all nations.
I couldn't care less about the grammar, but I do understand Jesus. I desire to obey Him by doing what He commands. Those who choose to differ with His words may be trying to get out from under. I am going, baptizing and making disciples in Jesus' name.
And it's really just that simple!
All this convolution over the basic Christian doctrine of The Great Commission is stifling, hindering and just another form of scattering rather than gathering
Lord Jesus Help Us!!!
Luke 11:23 "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me, scatters.
: yogi bear Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 14:01:11
My question is if Jesus commanded one to baptize that has to be referring to water baptism correct?? If not how will I or anyone baptize in spirit just how does one do that if it is not in water? So I see in Acts 2:38 where Peter carried out the command from Matthew 28:19 and Mark 16:16 and in doing he made it clear that in this baptism is where the spirit is given.
Think hard about that if Peter did not baptize here with water how did he baptize with spirit.
When you lay hands on the sick and they recover ...you are not the healer, the Holy Spirit working through you is Him who heals
When you minister the Gospel of Christ and the Words cut to the heart of a person, It is not you causing the person to believe, it is the Word of God, for Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word
That person becomes a believer through hearing the Word and is Baptized into the Name of Jesus and the Body of Christ by The Holy Spirit...not the person speaking!
It is the Holy Spirit who is The Master Surgeon, He who circumcises the heart of a person
So when Peter spoke, the Holy Spirit was working, cutting to the heart of the 3000 on that Day of Pentecost
When the Word goes forth, The Holy Spirit goes into action confirming it ( See Genesis 1 )
When Jesus, The Living Word went forth The Holy Spirit, going into action confirmed Him
When the disciples went forth, In the Word, the Holy Spirit, going into action confirmed them
and....
When WE GO FORTH IN THE WORD BELIEVING AND DOUBTING
The Holy Spirit will go into action and confirm us too! ::reading::
: gospel Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 11:51:24
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mat 28:19 Therefore in going, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you, make disciples of all nations.
And the makes a difference how?
In not going, not baptizing, not teaching you WILL NOT MAKE DISCIPLES
Seriously what is all the hub bub about grammar?
Why not discuss making disciples? ::headscratch::
The difference is that a correct understanding of what Jesus said, which can only be derived through the application of the correct grammar, means that it is through bapizing and teaching that disciples are made. A nonuntypical rendering of the passage is that disciples are made, then they are baptized and taught. At the far end of the spectrum are the Calvinists/Reformed theologians who say that because of total depravity until one is made a disciple (through regeneration) one cannot be taught and certainly baptism means nothing. A slight modification to that is that one becomes a disciple (through faith alone after hearing the gospel) and then he should be baptized as a symbol his acceptance of Jesus as Lord and Savior. But in fact, with correct grammatical rendering of the passage, what Jesus is saying is that one becomes [made]a disciple through being baptized and taught.
You said,
"Why not discuss making disciples?" ::headscratch::
I couldn't agree with you more. But the issue here in relation to Matt 28:18-20 is that baptizing and teaching is how you make disciples not what you do to disciples. Or in other words what does it take to make disciples. If a disciple is a Christian, i.e., a saved child of God, did he become a disciple before he was taught? No. If a disciple is a Christian, i.e., a saved child of God, did he beome a disciple before he was baptized? No. That is the plain message of Matt 28:18-20. Or as you have tried to say elsewhere, "It says what it says.
And that is why all the hub bub about grammar.
: fish153 Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 14:03:53
I think it's wonderful you're bringing up grammar. My grammar died several years ago at the age of 90. She was such a sweet woman, and made some of the best clam chowder you've ever tasted. So, though I don't think of her that often any more, I have to say that my grammar was, and still is very important to me.
(http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee267/Floatingaxe/Laughing/LOLputer.jpg)
In the NT, water baptism and faith are tied.
Now, hyper dispensationalists and Rm'ers separate baptism and faith and take their doctrines to extremes or the amount of time talking about it to extremes.
: Jimmy Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 14:18:37
: gospel Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 11:51:24
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mat 28:19 Therefore in going, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you, make disciples of all nations.
And the makes a difference how?
In not going, not baptizing, not teaching you WILL NOT MAKE DISCIPLES
Seriously what is all the hub bub about grammar?
Why not discuss making disciples? ::headscratch::
The difference is that a correct understanding of what Jesus said, which can only be derived through the application of the correct grammar, means that it is through bapizing and teaching that disciples are made. A nonuntypical rendering of the passage is that disciples are made, then they are baptized and taught. At the far end of the spectrum are the Calvinists/Reformed theologians who say that because of total depravity until one is made a disciple (through regeneration) one cannot be taught and certainly baptism means nothing. A slight modification to that is that one becomes a disciple (through faith alone after hearing the gospel) and then he should be baptized as a symbol his acceptance of Jesus as Lord and Savior. But in fact, with correct grammatical rendering of the passage, what Jesus is saying is that one becomes [made]a disciple through being baptized and taught.
You said,
"Why not discuss making disciples?" ::headscratch::
I couldn't agree with you more. But the issue here in relation to Matt 28:18-20 is that baptizing and teaching is how you make disciples not what you do to disciples. Or in other words what does it take to make disciples. If a disciple is a Christian, i.e., a saved child of God, did he become a disciple before he was taught? No. If a disciple is a Christian, i.e., a saved child of God, did he beome a disciple before he was baptized? No. That is the plain message of Matt 28:18-20. Or as you have tried to say elsewhere, "It says what it says.
And that is why all the hub bub about grammar.
I was seven years old when I read that passage and I understood it, without the understanding of grammar I have now!
The Bible is written so that a small child could understand it. Parsing scripture can be a ruse to find a loophole.
: yogi bear Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 14:01:11
My question is if Jesus commanded one to baptize that has to be referring to water baptism correct?? If not how will I or anyone baptize in spirit just how does one do that if it is not in water? So I see in Acts 2:38 where Peter carried out the command from Matthew 28:19 and Mark 16:16 and in doing he made it clear that in this baptism is where the spirit is given.
Think hard about that if Peter did not baptize here with water how did he baptize with spirit.
When you lay hands on the sick and they recover ...you are not the healer, the Holy Spirit working through you is Him who heals
When you minister the Gospel of Christ and the Words cut to the heart of a person, It is not you causing the person to believe, it is the Word of God, for Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word
That person becomes a believer through hearing the Word and is Baptized into the Name of Jesus and the Body of Christ by The Holy Spirit...not the person speaking!
It is the Holy Spirit who is The Master Surgeon, He who circumcises the heart of a person
So when Peter spoke, the Holy Spirit was working, cutting to the heart of the 3000 on that Day of Pentecost
When the Word goes forth, The Holy Spirit goes into action confirming it ( See Genesis 1 )
When Jesus, The Living Word went forth The Holy Spirit, going into action confirmed Him
When the disciples went forth, In the Word, the Holy Spirit, going into action confirmed them
and....
When WE GO FORTH IN THE WORD BELIEVING AND DOUBTING
The Holy Spirit will go into action and confirm us too! ::reading::
: Jimmy Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 14:18:37
: gospel Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 11:51:24
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mat 28:19 Therefore in going, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you, make disciples of all nations.
And the makes a difference how?
In not going, not baptizing, not teaching you WILL NOT MAKE DISCIPLES
Seriously what is all the hub bub about grammar?
Why not discuss making disciples? ::headscratch::
The difference is that a correct understanding of what Jesus said, which can only be derived through the application of the correct grammar, means that it is through bapizing and teaching that disciples are made. A nonuntypical rendering of the passage is that disciples are made, then they are baptized and taught. At the far end of the spectrum are the Calvinists/Reformed theologians who say that because of total depravity until one is made a disciple (through regeneration) one cannot be taught and certainly baptism means nothing. A slight modification to that is that one becomes a disciple (through faith alone after hearing the gospel) and then he should be baptized as a symbol his acceptance of Jesus as Lord and Savior. But in fact, with correct grammatical rendering of the passage, what Jesus is saying is that one becomes [made]a disciple through being baptized and taught.
You said,
"Why not discuss making disciples?" ::headscratch::
I couldn't agree with you more. But the issue here in relation to Matt 28:18-20 is that baptizing and teaching is how you make disciples not what you do to disciples. Or in other words what does it take to make disciples. If a disciple is a Christian, i.e., a saved child of God, did he become a disciple before he was taught? No. If a disciple is a Christian, i.e., a saved child of God, did he beome a disciple before he was baptized? No. That is the plain message of Matt 28:18-20. Or as you have tried to say elsewhere, "It says what it says.
And that is why all the hub bub about grammar.
What you have stated here is so complicated, so technically nuanced, so much so that it requires a tremendous amount of "effort" to understand what you are actually saying and the point you are trying to make.....
And what I'm saying is you are far more intellectually astute than Peter
In other words I GUARANTEE YOU Peter did not understand anything you just stated
Nor do I
He went and did
So should we
That's what Lively is trying to get across
Most War Heroes have never read War and Peace and most people who have ...
are not fit for battle if you get my drift
: Jimmy Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 14:18:37
: gospel Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 11:51:24
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mat 28:19 Therefore in going, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you, make disciples of all nations.
And the makes a difference how?
In not going, not baptizing, not teaching you WILL NOT MAKE DISCIPLES
Seriously what is all the hub bub about grammar?
Why not discuss making disciples? ::headscratch::
The difference is that a correct understanding of what Jesus said, which can only be derived through the application of the correct grammar, means that it is through bapizing and teaching that disciples are made. A nonuntypical rendering of the passage is that disciples are made, then they are baptized and taught. At the far end of the spectrum are the Calvinists/Reformed theologians who say that because of total depravity until one is made a disciple (through regeneration) one cannot be taught and certainly baptism means nothing. A slight modification to that is that one becomes a disciple (through faith alone after hearing the gospel) and then he should be baptized as a symbol his acceptance of Jesus as Lord and Savior. But in fact, with correct grammatical rendering of the passage, what Jesus is saying is that one becomes [made]a disciple through being baptized and taught.
You said,
"Why not discuss making disciples?" ::headscratch::
I couldn't agree with you more. But the issue here in relation to Matt 28:18-20 is that baptizing and teaching is how you make disciples not what you do to disciples. Or in other words what does it take to make disciples. If a disciple is a Christian, i.e., a saved child of God, did he become a disciple before he was taught? No. If a disciple is a Christian, i.e., a saved child of God, did he beome a disciple before he was baptized? No. That is the plain message of Matt 28:18-20. Or as you have tried to say elsewhere, "It says what it says.
And that is why all the hub bub about grammar.
What you have stated here is so complicated, so technically nuanced, so much so that it requires a tremendous amount of "effort" to understand what you are actually saying and the point you are trying to make.....
And what I'm saying is you are far more intellectually astute than Peter
In other words I GUARANTEE YOU Peter did not understand anything you just stated
Nor do I
He went and did
So should we
That's what Lively is trying to get across
Most War Heroes have never read War and Peace and most people who have ...
are not fit for battle if you get my drift
Some of the main misunderstandings come from what people in that day in time understood about what was being said and done.
In Israel there was the beginning school which was called Bethgashepher. (Beth-gas-hep-her). There all the boys and girls used the Torah to learn reading, writing, arithmetic, and history. It was not compulsory until around 60 AD. But by that time most everyone did send their children to school.
Most all children in Israel were literate in Hebrew/Aramaic.
The Roman Government had produced a Greek Translation of the Hebrew Old Testament and it was produced in Seventy Days by seventy scholars...and thus nicknamed the Septuagent...and this was where all the Helenistic Jews learned the scriptures from...as well as most of the Gentile early church.
The second level of education was called BethMidrash. There students debated the Tenach and memorized the rest of the Old Testament. (yes, they had already memorized the Torah)
The top and best students with the best records could go to a Rabbi (someone who interpreted the Torah for the masses) and ask them if they could follow them. (the Rabbi never asked the students) and if the student had good enough of a reputation then the rabbi would say, "yes" and then the student would do everything possible to become like the original rabbi he followed. "When you are a disciple you are to follow your rabbi so closely that the dust from his sandals covers you"
This following was so closely done. If the rabbi was left handed and you were right handed...you immediately switched.
If the rabbi snored and you didn't...you learned how to snore.
You would pray the exact prayer he prayed either before, during or at the end of every meal.
You were to become just like the rabbi so that no one could tell the difference behind your beards as to which was the original rabbi and which was the student.
To be a rabbi was extreme status for any family...the whole family tree would support a person who was a disciple. Rabbi were the judge and jury in many cases in those days.
Finally at the end of years of following a rabbi he would turn around to you one day and say, "Go make disciples"....meaning that now you were a rabbi in your own right...
So when Jesus did this to the Apostles/disciples it was understood in this manner....but instead of disciples of themselves they were to make disciples of Jesus....and in that name and fashion they were to enter the disciples into the priesthood and religious sect by performing what John called a "Baptism". Otherwise known as a ceremonial washing...the same word used here is the exact same word used in Genesis for what Joseph's brothers did to Joseph's coat after selling him into slavery...because to Jacob (when he seen the coat dipped in blood) Joseph was now dead.
Also when priests would enter their term of service in the Temple they also would take a ceremonial bath and put on ceremonial clothes. The dual significance was what this Baptism was about...the permission to personally handle the scriptures without the aide of a rabbi or Levite and to carry their own sins before God for forgiveness....unlike before when a Levite Priest would have to do it for you at the Temple.
Soooo...when I read this passage This is what I see as to going on.
Except I also remember one passage, "you didn't ask me I asked you"
: gospel Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 15:20:05
: Jimmy Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 14:18:37
: gospel Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 11:51:24
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mat 28:19 Therefore in going, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you, make disciples of all nations.
And the makes a difference how?
In not going, not baptizing, not teaching you WILL NOT MAKE DISCIPLES
Seriously what is all the hub bub about grammar?
Why not discuss making disciples? ::headscratch::
The difference is that a correct understanding of what Jesus said, which can only be derived through the application of the correct grammar, means that it is through bapizing and teaching that disciples are made. A nonuntypical rendering of the passage is that disciples are made, then they are baptized and taught. At the far end of the spectrum are the Calvinists/Reformed theologians who say that because of total depravity until one is made a disciple (through regeneration) one cannot be taught and certainly baptism means nothing. A slight modification to that is that one becomes a disciple (through faith alone after hearing the gospel) and then he should be baptized as a symbol his acceptance of Jesus as Lord and Savior. But in fact, with correct grammatical rendering of the passage, what Jesus is saying is that one becomes [made]a disciple through being baptized and taught.
You said,
"Why not discuss making disciples?" ::headscratch::
I couldn't agree with you more. But the issue here in relation to Matt 28:18-20 is that baptizing and teaching is how you make disciples not what you do to disciples. Or in other words what does it take to make disciples. If a disciple is a Christian, i.e., a saved child of God, did he become a disciple before he was taught? No. If a disciple is a Christian, i.e., a saved child of God, did he beome a disciple before he was baptized? No. That is the plain message of Matt 28:18-20. Or as you have tried to say elsewhere, "It says what it says.
And that is why all the hub bub about grammar.
What you have stated here is so complicated, so technically nuanced, so much so that it requires a tremendous amount of "effort" to understand what you are actually saying and the point you are trying to make.....
And what I'm saying is you are far more intellectually astute than Peter
In other words I GUARANTEE YOU Peter did not understand anything you just stated
Nor do I
He went and did
So should we
That's what Lively is trying to get across
Most War Heroes have never read War and Peace and most people who have ...
are not fit for battle if you get my drift
It is not nuanced at all. As I said earlier, it is nothing more than high school grammar. You know, nouns, pronouns, verbs, participles, etc. Beyond that You have no way to GUARRANTEE me anything about what Peter did or did not understand. To think you do takes even more arrogance than I would have ascribed to even you, gospel. Nevertheless, it is written in Koine Greek, which was the common Greek of the day. I seriously doubt that, after having spent three years in nearly perpetual contact with Jesus, who I am sure made no grammatical errors in His speaking, even poor old fisherman Peter had an excellant grasp of the Greek. I would not in any way think that I am more intellectually astute than Peter.
Yes, Peter, "went and did". But he went and did as Jesus instructed. He didn't, with the exception of a couple of instances concerning hanging out with Gentiles, try to avoid the obvious teachings of Jesus and complain that what he said was "nuanced".
As for your mention of War and Peace, you seem to have a real knot in your gut about education. Most people that I have run into who feel that way are people who have little or no formal education in the context in which they are speaking. I don't know if that describes you or not. I really don't care. But I do take issue with your regular put down and insults about those who have been blessed with a good education. And my response to any of those who would take issue with any having degrees of any sort is that whatever you can do without an education, you can do that and more with an education.
JohnDB, that was very good and very informative!
Manna to you
Yet I defer again to the scriptures
Finally at the end of years of following a rabbi he would turn around to you one day and say, "Go make disciples"....meaning that now you were a rabbi in your own right...
So when Jesus did this to the Apostles/disciples it was understood in this manner....but instead of disciples of themselves they were to make disciples of Jesus.
As to this point you are right on point and totally correct as evidenced in the following verse
The members of the council were amazed when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, for they could see that they were ordinary men with no special training in the Scriptures.
They also recognized them as men who had been with Jesus. Acts 4:13As to Jesus education, they seemed to be a wee-bit baffled
"Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? "And His sisters, are they not all with us?
Where then did this man get all these things?" Matthew 13:55,56When the Sabbath came, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying,
"Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands?
Mark 6:2
It is not nuanced at all. As I said earlier, it is nothing more than high school grammar. You know, nouns, pronouns, verbs, participles, etc. Beyond that You have no way to GUARRANTEE me anything about what Peter did or did not understand.
You're a grown older adult man, set in your ways and you know what you know. Guaranteeing you about the simplicity of the Gospel and it's ability to be thoroughly understood by the unlearned and unstudied is not My Commission. You're a smart guy...why not show us how intelligently you can guarantee all of us that the Gospel cannot be understood WITHOUT a Strongs Dictionary, a Concordance, a Greek / Hebrew Lexicon and a thorough knowledge of grammar
I seriously doubt that, after having spent three years in nearly perpetual contact with Jesus, who I am sure made no grammatical errors in His speaking, even poor old fisherman Peter had an excellant grasp of the Greek. I would not in any way think that I am more intellectually astute than Peter.
So you are sure? That means you guarantee it huh? So I guess NOW we can all ignore Acts 4:13
they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men,
Yes, Peter, "went and did". But he went and did as Jesus instructed.
ANOINTED Jimmy, the word is ANOINTED
Peter was anointed, as were all Jesus disciples, as are you if you learn to rely on it, trust in it and believe in it more than you do all your book learnin' ::shrug::
Anointing is God's Ability to do something or be something, Anointing helps a person to surpass the limitations of human ability, YOU CAN'T LEARN ANOINTING, you have to be Anointed. That is where our Gifting abides, in that in which we are anointed. No anointing... No Holy Ghost Power!
As for your mention of War and Peace, you seem to have a real knot in your gut about education. Most people that I have run into who feel that way are people who have little or no formal education in the context in which they are speaking. I don't know if that describes you or not. I really don't care. But I do take issue with your regular put down and insults about those who have been blessed with a good education. And my response to any of those who would take issue with any having degrees of any sort is that whatever you can do without an education, you can do that and more with an education.
I know you probably don't think so but I am actually not too shabby myself in the area of intellect HOWEVER
Methinks maybe you did not catch this in Genesis but some doctrines take some aspects of Genesis lightly... maybe yours does as well...but
KNOWLEDGE, trying to BE AS SMART AS GOD is the root cause of the Fall of Man.
Not evil but rather The knowledge of good and evil, which is the forerunner, the shadow and type of the Law.
Man not being able to handle the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil is why we need Jesus.
Hence my emphasis and thrust is always in understanding JESUS!
When I find myself on the slippery slopes of being a smarty pants, a fool that simply knows what a book says by heart rather than what it means...I try to snatch myself back from the lofty pillars of ivory tower elitism and sit at the feet of the Master asking, Lord Jesus tell me what this means.
So no I don't put down intellect or intellectuals, I just enjoy calling to the mat those "intellectuals" who have a misplaced, misguided opinion of Intellect, placing it like a Golden Calf over and above a Knowledge of Christ and Him Crucified and all of what that entails!
Hence over emphasizing grammar in terms of discipleship, making an intellectual pursuit out of the Great Commission is pure foolishness to say the least
Nothing but pride and the height of arrogance can cause you to infer that someone is following a false doctrine and doesn't understand The Great Commission as well as you because of some nonsensical grammatical nuance...and YES it is a NUANCE!
A Trivial Pursuit
And my analogy rings true.
As a rule War Heroes don't read War and Peace, they are War Heroes because they follow orders, they GO and DO!
The King has said...GO and DO
In going, so doing whatever blah, blah, blah ::juggle::
GO and DO!
No matter how long Peter hung out with Jesus, it wouldn't have affected any Greek he knew. Jesus and Peter spoke Aramaic.
come on get back on track here was Matthew 28 carried out for the first time in Acts 2 and was it in water with giving of the spirit?
Book learnin' and research tools have there place, but nothing, absolutely nothing should be placed above:
Jhn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
1Cr 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Blessings
: yogi bear Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 17:00:30
come on get back on track here was Matthew 28 carried out for the first time in Acts 2 and was it in water with giving of the spirit?
I answered your question in an earlier post.
Blessings
Top of page 4.
: Joyfullee Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 17:18:31
Book learnin' and research tools have there place, but nothing, absolutely nothing should be placed above:
Jhn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
1Cr 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Blessings
Well stated!
: yogi bear Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 17:00:30
come on get back on track here was Matthew 28 carried out for the first time in Acts 2 and was it in water with giving of the spirit?
We don't know for sure.
What we do know is that there were Mikveh there that the priests used...also the pool of Siloam was also nearby.
And as far as praising God and the giving of the Holy Spirit...or do you mean "The Helper"?
That is also unclear at that time too...we see the Apostles doing that sort of thing...using the gifts of the "Helper"....but the rest is anyone's guess.
: yogi bear Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 17:00:30
come on get back on track here was Matthew 28 carried out for the first time in Acts 2 and was it in water with giving of the spirit?
Acts 2:41Those who believed what Peter said were baptized and added to the church that day—about 3,000 in all.
All 3000 were baptized in water, and all would have been baptized in the Holy Spirit's power as the 120 were in the upper room.
: Joyfullee Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 17:18:31
Book learnin' and research tools have there place, but nothing, absolutely nothing should be placed above:
Jhn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
1Cr 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Blessings
So let me understand what it is that you are saying here. Even if you don't know the meaning of all the words, don't necessarily understand English grammar and other such things, you think the Holy Spirit will fill in the correct meaning for you anyway. Is that about it? Why not just read it in the original Greek. Surely the HolySpirit can fill that it too, can't he? He understand Greek just as well as English.
: Jimmy Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 19:53:12
: Joyfullee Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 17:18:31
Book learnin' and research tools have there place, but nothing, absolutely nothing should be placed above:
Jhn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
1Cr 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Blessings
So let me understand what it is that you are saying here. Even if you don't know the meaning of all the words, don't necessarily understand English grammar and other such things, you think the Holy Spirit will fill in the correct meaning for you anyway. Is that about it? Why not just read it in the original Greek. Surely the HolySpirit can fill that it too, can't he? He understand Greek just as well as English.
That's just very, very sad.
I believe that God can take someone who does not even know how to read, draw them to Him, save them, indwell them with the Holy Spirit and teach them just fine through His Spirit.
Blessings
OP:
3. How is this to be carried out?Apparently it begins with a DRINK! (of Living Water) ::smile::
: Lively Stone Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 19:01:40
: Jimmy Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 18:31:58
: Lively Stone Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 14:42:21
: Jimmy Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 06:37:51
This is by far the best answer that has been given. However the answer to question 2 is not quite right. In verses 19 and 20 only "go" and "make disciples" are commands. Grammatically, "baptizing" and "teaching" are not commands as such, but in fact are modifiers to the command "make disciples". Jesus is not telling the eleven to make disciples and then baptize them and teach them; rather Jesus is telling the eleven how to make disciples. He didn't tell them to make disciples and then baptize and teach them; instead He told them how to make disciples.
Suppose I had a roof that had been damaged in one way or another or it was just getting old and needed some upkeep. I might call a roofing contractor to give me and estimate of what it would cost. I might tell him, "I want you to fix my roof, inspecting it completely, replacing any rotted or otherwise damaged wood and putting new shingles on the entire roof." Grammatically, "inspecting", "replacing" and "putting" are modifiers describing what I mean by "fix", It is a description of what how to fix the roof.
"Go, baptizing" is a complete command that tells the disciples to do two things.
If the courts took your understanding of the mandate, you would not have a leg to stand on in court should your errant roofer ignore the inclusions.
Lively,
I am sorry but you are wrong. It has nothing to do with courts. It really doesn't have anything to do with theology. It is just plain good old high school English grammar. Something that I am not sure they even bother to teach anymore. And in this case it is good old Greek grammar as well.
I am gifted in grammar and have worked as a literary editor. Believe me, 'baptizing' is in a future progressive tense and can be used in an imperative. That is what this is.
: daq Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 10:20:35
Matthew 13:52
52. Then said he unto them, Therefore every SCRIBE (GSN#1122) which is DISCIPLED (GSN#3100) INTO (GSN#1519 "eis") the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an HOUSEMASTER, (GSN#3617) which bringeth forth out of his thesaurus-treasure things new and old.
Strong's Greek Definition for #1122
1122 // grammateuv // grammateus // gram-mat-yooce' //
from 1121 ; TDNT - 1:740,127; n m
AV - scribe 66, townclerk 1; 67
1) a clerk, scribe, esp.a public servant, secretary, recorder,
whose office and influence differed in different states
2) in the Bible, a man learned in the Mosaic law and in the sacred
writings, an interpreter, teacher. Scribes examined the more
difficult and subtle questions of the law; added to the Mosaic
law decisions of various kinds thought to elucidate its meaning
and scope, and did this to the detriment of religion. Since the
advice of men skilled in the law was needed in the examination in
the causes and the solution of the difficult questions, they were
enrolled in the Sanhedrin; and are mentioned in connection with
the priests and elders of the people. See a Bible Dictionary for
more information on the scribes.
3) a religious teacher: so instructed that from his learning and
ability to teach advantage may redound to the kingdom of heaven.
http://www.apostolic-churches.net/bible/strongs/ref/?stgh=greek&stnm=1122 (http://www.apostolic-churches.net/bible/strongs/ref/?stgh=greek&stnm=1122)
Original Strong's Ref. #3100
Romanized matheteuo
Pronounced math-ayt-yoo'-o
from GSN3101; intransitively, to become a pupil; transitively, to disciple, i.e. enrol as scholar:
KJV--be disciple, instruct, teach.
Original Strong's Ref. #3101
Romanized mathetes
Pronounced math-ay-tes'
from GSN3129; a learner, i.e. pupil:
KJV--disciple.
Original Strong's Ref. #3617
Romanized oikodespotes
Pronounced oy-kod-es-pot'-ace
from GSN3624 and GSN1203; the head of a family:
KJV--goodman (of the house), householder, master of the house.
::eatingpopcorn:
Scribes, the "grammatically gifted" (and anyone else) can someone kindly point out the Old Testament passage where the following phrase is written? Yeshua clearly states; "
AS THE SCIPTURE HATH SAID" before he quotes it. It does not necessarily need to be one of the following translations, any English translation will suffice:
John 7:37-39 KJV37. In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38.
He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.39. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet
given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
John 7:37-39 YGB37. And in the last, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, 'If any one doth thirst, let him come unto me and drink;
38.
he who is believing in me, according as the Writing said, Rivers out of his belly shall flow of living water;'39. and this he said of the Spirit, which those believing in him were about to receive; for not yet was the Holy Spirit, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Where is this written in the Old Testament? ???
"Out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water ..."
"Rivers out of his belly shall flow of living water ..."::eatingpopcorn:
: Joyfullee Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 20:21:23
: Jimmy Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 19:53:12
: Joyfullee Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 17:18:31
Book learnin' and research tools have there place, but nothing, absolutely nothing should be placed above:
Jhn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
1Cr 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Blessings
So let me understand what it is that you are saying here. Even if you don't know the meaning of all the words, don't necessarily understand English grammar and other such things, you think the Holy Spirit will fill in the correct meaning for you anyway. Is that about it? Why not just read it in the original Greek. Surely the HolySpirit can fill that it too, can't he? He understand Greek just as well as English.
That's just very, very sad.
I believe that God can take someone who does not even know how to read, draw them to Him, save them, indwell them with the Holy Spirit and teach them just fine through His Spirit.
Blessings
That's just very, very sad.
It is quite true that God can take someone who does not even know how to read, draw them to Him, save them, indwell them with the Holy Spirit and teach them just fine through another who teaches.
If what you said you believe was true, there would be Christians all over this world where missionaries or others have never been to take the message. That is, in part at least, what Paul meant in Romans 10 where he wrote,
Rom 10:14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
Rom 10:15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!"
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?"
Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. I could take each one of the passages of Scripture that you posted and show that they do not say what you seem to think they say. God's message is carried by people who know and love God. They have the Holy Spirit as a guide and comforter. But the Holy Spirit is not a substitute for human teachers. That is the very reason that Jesus said what he did to the eleven disciples in Matt 28:18-20. If that doesn't happen, then no one will hear.
And for any who would take the message, it is encumbant upon them to study God's word and to always strive understand what He is telling us in His word.
And yes, Joyfulee, that is just very, very sad that you do not understand what the work of the Holy Spirit really is all about.
For what it is worth, Barnes says the following:
As the scripture hath said - This is a difficult expression, from the fact that no such expression as follows is to be found literally in the Old Testament. Some have proposed to connect it with what precedes - "He that believeth on me, as the Old Testament has commanded or required
The end of the gospels, all in one passage...
Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, And he led them out as far as to Bethany, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. And Jesus came and spoke unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
So then after the Lord had spoken these things unto them, he lifted up his hands, and blessed them. And it came to pass, while he blessed them, while they beheld, he was taken up; he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven, he was received up into heaven, and a cloud received him out of their sight, and sat on the right hand of God. And they worshipped him. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
And they returned with great joy unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a Sabbath day's journey. And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following.
And there are also many other things, many other signs, which Jesus truly did, in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: And, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. Amen.
THE END
: Jimmy Sat Aug 27, 2011 - 07:22:47
: Joyfullee Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 20:21:23
: Jimmy Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 19:53:12
: Joyfullee Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 17:18:31
Book learnin' and research tools have there place, but nothing, absolutely nothing should be placed above:
Jhn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
1Cr 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Blessings
So let me understand what it is that you are saying here. Even if you don't know the meaning of all the words, don't necessarily understand English grammar and other such things, you think the Holy Spirit will fill in the correct meaning for you anyway. Is that about it? Why not just read it in the original Greek. Surely the HolySpirit can fill that it too, can't he? He understand Greek just as well as English.
That's just very, very sad.
I believe that God can take someone who does not even know how to read, draw them to Him, save them, indwell them with the Holy Spirit and teach them just fine through His Spirit.
Blessings
That's just very, very sad.
It is quite true that God can take someone who does not even know how to read, draw them to Him, save them, indwell them with the Holy Spirit and teach them just fine through another who teaches.
If what you said you believe was true, there would be Christians all over this world where missionaries or others have never been to take the message. That is, in part at least, what Paul meant in Romans 10 where he wrote,
Rom 10:14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
Rom 10:15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!"
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?"
Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
I could take each one of the passages of Scripture that you posted and show that they do not say what you seem to think they say. God's message is carried by people who know and love God. They have the Holy Spirit as a guide and comforter. But the Holy Spirit is not a substitute for human teachers. That is the very reason that Jesus said what he did to the eleven disciples in Matt 28:18-20. If that doesn't happen, then no one will hear.
And for any who would take the message, it is encumbant upon them to study God's word and to always strive understand what He is telling us in His word.
And yes, Joyfulee, that is just very, very sad that you do not understand what the work of the Holy Spirit really is all about.
I'll repeat:
Book learnin' and research tools have there place, but nothing, absolutely nothing should be placed above:
Jhn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
1Cr 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Blessings
PS. I did not say they never HEARD the word of God PREACHED.
What I am saying is that people do not have to parse every little word in every sentence to be able to understand God's Word. God's Word very clearly tells us that the Holy Spirit is our teacher.
: daq Sat Aug 27, 2011 - 05:30:21
OP:
3. How is this to be carried out?
Apparently it begins with a DRINK! (of Living Water) ::smile::
: Lively Stone Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 19:01:40
: Jimmy Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 18:31:58
: Lively Stone Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 14:42:21
: Jimmy Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 06:37:51
This is by far the best answer that has been given. However the answer to question 2 is not quite right. In verses 19 and 20 only "go" and "make disciples" are commands. Grammatically, "baptizing" and "teaching" are not commands as such, but in fact are modifiers to the command "make disciples". Jesus is not telling the eleven to make disciples and then baptize them and teach them; rather Jesus is telling the eleven how to make disciples. He didn't tell them to make disciples and then baptize and teach them; instead He told them how to make disciples.
Suppose I had a roof that had been damaged in one way or another or it was just getting old and needed some upkeep. I might call a roofing contractor to give me and estimate of what it would cost. I might tell him, "I want you to fix my roof, inspecting it completely, replacing any rotted or otherwise damaged wood and putting new shingles on the entire roof." Grammatically, "inspecting", "replacing" and "putting" are modifiers describing what I mean by "fix", It is a description of what how to fix the roof.
"Go, baptizing" is a complete command that tells the disciples to do two things.
If the courts took your understanding of the mandate, you would not have a leg to stand on in court should your errant roofer ignore the inclusions.
Lively,
I am sorry but you are wrong. It has nothing to do with courts. It really doesn't have anything to do with theology. It is just plain good old high school English grammar. Something that I am not sure they even bother to teach anymore. And in this case it is good old Greek grammar as well.
I am gifted in grammar and have worked as a literary editor. Believe me, 'baptizing' is in a future progressive tense and can be used in an imperative. That is what this is.
: daq Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 10:20:35
Matthew 13:52
52. Then said he unto them, Therefore every SCRIBE (GSN#1122) which is DISCIPLED (GSN#3100) INTO (GSN#1519 "eis") the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an HOUSEMASTER, (GSN#3617) which bringeth forth out of his thesaurus-treasure things new and old.
Strong's Greek Definition for #1122
1122 // grammateuv // grammateus // gram-mat-yooce' //
from 1121 ; TDNT - 1:740,127; n m
AV - scribe 66, townclerk 1; 67
1) a clerk, scribe, esp.a public servant, secretary, recorder,
whose office and influence differed in different states
2) in the Bible, a man learned in the Mosaic law and in the sacred
writings, an interpreter, teacher. Scribes examined the more
difficult and subtle questions of the law; added to the Mosaic
law decisions of various kinds thought to elucidate its meaning
and scope, and did this to the detriment of religion. Since the
advice of men skilled in the law was needed in the examination in
the causes and the solution of the difficult questions, they were
enrolled in the Sanhedrin; and are mentioned in connection with
the priests and elders of the people. See a Bible Dictionary for
more information on the scribes.
3) a religious teacher: so instructed that from his learning and
ability to teach advantage may redound to the kingdom of heaven.
http://www.apostolic-churches.net/bible/strongs/ref/?stgh=greek&stnm=1122 (http://www.apostolic-churches.net/bible/strongs/ref/?stgh=greek&stnm=1122)
Original Strong's Ref. #3100
Romanized matheteuo
Pronounced math-ayt-yoo'-o
from GSN3101; intransitively, to become a pupil; transitively, to disciple, i.e. enrol as scholar:
KJV--be disciple, instruct, teach.
Original Strong's Ref. #3101
Romanized mathetes
Pronounced math-ay-tes'
from GSN3129; a learner, i.e. pupil:
KJV--disciple.
Original Strong's Ref. #3617
Romanized oikodespotes
Pronounced oy-kod-es-pot'-ace
from GSN3624 and GSN1203; the head of a family:
KJV--goodman (of the house), householder, master of the house.
::eatingpopcorn:
Scribes, the "grammatically gifted" (and anyone else) can someone kindly point out the Old Testament passage where the following phrase is written? Yeshua clearly states; "AS THE SCIPTURE HATH SAID" before he quotes it. It does not necessarily need to be one of the following translations, any English translation will suffice:
John 7:37-39 KJV
37. In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
John 7:37-39 YGB
37. And in the last, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, 'If any one doth thirst, let him come unto me and drink;
38. he who is believing in me, according as the Writing said, Rivers out of his belly shall flow of living water;'
39. and this he said of the Spirit, which those believing in him were about to receive; for not yet was the Holy Spirit, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Where is this written in the Old Testament? ???
"Out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water ..."
"Rivers out of his belly shall flow of living water ..."
::eatingpopcorn:
"With joy you will draw water from the wells of salvation." -Isaiah 12:3
"The words of a man's mouth are deep waters; the fountain of wisdom is a bubbling brook." -Proverbs 18:4
Then he brought me back to the entrance of the house, and I saw water flowing eastward from under the threshold of the house, for the house faced east. The water flowed down from under the right side of the house, south of the altar. -Ezekiel 47:1
: Talking Donkey Sat Aug 27, 2011 - 08:09:08
The end of the gospels, all in one passage...
Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, And he led them out as far as to Bethany, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. And Jesus came and spoke unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
So then after the Lord had spoken these things unto them, he lifted up his hands, and blessed them. And it came to pass, while he blessed them, while they beheld, he was taken up; he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven, he was received up into heaven, and a cloud received him out of their sight, and sat on the right hand of God. And they worshipped him. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
And they returned with great joy unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a Sabbath day's journey. And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following.
And there are also many other things, many other signs, which Jesus truly did, in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: And, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. Amen.
THE END
There! That says it all! Thread done! ::clappingoverhead:: LOL!
: gospel Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 15:56:34
JohnDB, that was very good and very informative!
Manna to you
Yet I defer again to the scriptures
Finally at the end of years of following a rabbi he would turn around to you one day and say, "Go make disciples"....meaning that now you were a rabbi in your own right...
So when Jesus did this to the Apostles/disciples it was understood in this manner....but instead of disciples of themselves they were to make disciples of Jesus.
As to this point you are right on point and totally correct as evidenced in the following verse
The members of the council were amazed when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, for they could see that they were ordinary men with no special training in the Scriptures. They also recognized them as men who had been with Jesus. Acts 4:13
As to Jesus education, they seemed to be a wee-bit baffled
"Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? "And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man get all these things?" Matthew 13:55,56
When the Sabbath came, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? Mark 6:2
These sections of scripture relate to another tidbit that has been lost and rediscovered.
There were several "orders" or levels of rabbi.
Jesus took on the role of the highest order of rabbi known as a schmeeka rabbi...one who could speak with authority to interpret the Torah and say what the Law really meant.
Because of this they were rather offended at what they perceived as hubris.
There were no stories of Jesus being officially made a schmeeka rabbi by the established religious leaders. They knew his parents and family...and knew them to be simple construction workers and not of the religious elite Sadducee order or any other highly respectable order.
The truth of what he was saying was dismissed by his familiarity with the neighborhood.
It is a direct cousin of what I call "Powdered but syndrome"....IOW if someone has changed your diapers they ain't ever gonna think that you are smarter or better than they are.
: Joyfullee Sat Aug 27, 2011 - 09:12:07
Jhn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
1Cr 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
What Jesus said in John 16:13 was spoken to the eleven. No one else was in the audience. When he said "he [the Spirit of truth] will guide ....he will show you things to come." Jesus was not speaking to you or me. Do not expect the Holy Spirit to give you the power of prophecy or to show you all things. Jesus spoke that to eleven men. That does not address either you or me directly. It was given to the eleven plus Paul the apostle and presumably Mathias. You can not assume the authority Jesus gave to the apostles.
The same for John 14:26. It is the apostles, not you ,not me, whom the Holy Spirit was to teach all things. It is bad enough that the Roman Catholic Church claims their leaders fall into some line of apostolic succession. It is orders of magnitude worse that you would think that you think that you personally follow in that apostolic succession. When Jesus said, "he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you," again that is spoken to the eleven, not you or me. After all, Jesus has not personally said anything to you ever.
For John's statement in 1 John 2:27 you need to back up a couple of verses to see what John is talking about. Namely,
1Jn 2:24 As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
1Jn 2:25 And this is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.
1Jn 2:26 These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. John wrote concerning their not being deceive by any coming teaching another gospel. They should hold fast to what they had been taught. John is speaking about that which they had already been taught. He is not speaking of any new revelation that they would be given.
And finally, the passage you cited in 1 Cor 2 is Paul's declaration of his own inspiration by the Holy Spirit. It is most definitely not any teaching concerning what you yourself know. Paul's "we speak" is the editorial "we", the royal "we" and perhaps the apostles. But the "we" is most definitely not his audience or his readership. Throughout that passage, he is contrasting himself with the false teachers which threatened many of the early Christian communities. Their teaching, according to Paul, was dependent upon human wisdom or the philosophy of men. His teaching, on the other hand, came with the "demonstration of the Spirit and of power" (v.4).
Joyfulee, none of those passages says anything about the Holy Spirit personally teaching you or me anything. Does that mean the Holy Spirit is absent in our studies of God's word. No, of course not. But He is there with us to help us study, not do our homework for us.
Now it is true that so long as a person has sufficient mental capacity to know right from wrong and understand the consequences of their actions, then the word of God is capable of reaching that person to bring him to Christ and his own salvation even though that person might never understand much more than that. And that certainly does not mean that the Holy Spirit is going to make that person a Bible scholar or anything close.
Jimmy~
To believe what you have just said, you must be a cessationist, then, believing that the Great Commission and the gifts and callings of the Holy Spirit were only for the apostles and Jesus' immediate followers and not for the Church?
: Lively Stone Sat Aug 27, 2011 - 17:38:07
Jimmy~
To believe what you have just said, you must be a cessationist, then, believing that the Great Commission and the gifts and callings of the Holy Spirit were only for the apostles and Jesus' immediate followers and not for the Church?
Lively,
I said what I said, because that is what the Scriptures say.
We have the whole of the NT to teach us concerning what we as "ordinary" Christians need to be doing and the gifts that we have been given. Pay heed to those and do not try to usurp the power and inspiration that has not been given you.
I do not need to be a cessationist to understand that I am not an apostle of Jesus Christ as were the 12 and Paul.
: Jimmy Sat Aug 27, 2011 - 18:48:55
: Lively Stone Sat Aug 27, 2011 - 17:38:07
Jimmy~
To believe what you have just said, you must be a cessationist, then, believing that the Great Commission and the gifts and callings of the Holy Spirit were only for the apostles and Jesus' immediate followers and not for the Church?
Lively,
I said what I said, because that is what the Scriptures say.
We have the whole of the NT to teach us concerning what we as "ordinary" Christians need to be doing and the gifts that we have been given. Pay heed to those and do not try to usurp the power and inspiration that has not been given you.
I do not need to be a cessationist to understand that I am not an apostle of Jesus Christ as were the 12 and Paul.
Every spiritual gift and blessing has been given to us. We must appropriate them.
Ephesians 1:3-83 All praise to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with
every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ. 4 Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes. 5 God decided in advance to adopt us into his own family by bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ. This is what he wanted to do, and it gave him great pleasure. 6 So we praise God for the glorious grace he has poured out on us who belong to his dear Son. 7 He is so rich in kindness and grace that he purchased our freedom with the blood of his Son and forgave our sins. 8 He has showered his kindness on us, along with
all wisdom and understanding.
Jimmy, you need to put away those books of yours and get you some indwelling Holy Spirit teachings.
I'll tell ya right now, straight out, you truly don't see or understand the truth of God's Word, if you believe all that you wrote in your above post.
Line upon line, precept upon precept. You need to take the whole counsel of God together, not build erroneous doctrine on bits and pieces, here and there.
Blessings
: Jimmy Sat Aug 27, 2011 - 17:28:21
[What Jesus said in John 16:13 was spoken to the eleven. No one else was in the audience. When he said "he [the Spirit of truth] will guide ....he will show you things to come." Jesus was not speaking to you or me. Do not expect the Holy Spirit to give you the power of prophecy or to show you all things. Jesus spoke that to eleven men. That does not address either you or me directly. It was given to the eleven plus Paul the apostle and presumably Mathias. You can not assume the authority Jesus gave to the apostles.
John 16:17 Then said some of his disciples among themselves...
John16:29 His disciples said unto him...
John 16:31 Jesus answered them...
DISCIPLE - a learner, pupil
Blessings
John 14:11-12
Just believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me. Or at least believe because of the work you have seen me do.
"I tell you the truth, anyone who believes in me will do the same works I have done, and even greater works, because I am going to be with the Father.
Jesus promised that believers (not just apostles) may do the works that He did, and even greater, because He has returned to the Father and given us His Spirit.
Ministering in our spiritual gifts is very much a part of the "full gospel" ministry. Christ's disciples in the early Church did indeed do the works that He had done. They healed the sick, raised the dead, cleansed the lepers, cast out devils, and more. We must take note that Jesus' promise was not just to the disciples of that first generation, but to "ANYONE who has FAITH IN ME.
Thank you Joyfulee and Lively Stone. Indeed Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to all His believers, not only to the eleven apostles. He didn't die for only them. He died for all of us. Jimmy should read John 14:11-12 where it says that anyone, that means all of us who believe, not just the eleven, may do the works He did.... Jimmy is in error thinking that Jesus was just speaking to the apostles only. I truly thank our great God for all of His gifts and promises to us who believe on His son Jesus Christ.
: Joyfullee Sat Aug 27, 2011 - 20:05:26
Jimmy, you need to put away those books of yours and get you some indwelling Holy Spirit teachings.
I'll tell ya right now, straight out, you truly don't see or understand the truth of God's Word, if you believe all that you wrote in your above post.
Line upon line, precept upon precept. You need to take the whole counsel of God together, not build erroneous doctrine on bits and pieces, here and there.
Blessings
: Joyfullee Sat Aug 27, 2011 - 20:18:51
: Jimmy Sat Aug 27, 2011 - 17:28:21
[What Jesus said in John 16:13 was spoken to the eleven. No one else was in the audience. When he said "he [the Spirit of truth] will guide ....he will show you things to come." Jesus was not speaking to you or me. Do not expect the Holy Spirit to give you the power of prophecy or to show you all things. Jesus spoke that to eleven men. That does not address either you or me directly. It was given to the eleven plus Paul the apostle and presumably Mathias. You can not assume the authority Jesus gave to the apostles.
John 16:17 Then said some of his disciples among themselves...
John16:29 His disciples said unto him...
John 16:31 Jesus answered them...
DISCIPLE - a learner, pupil
Blessings
Joyfulee,
You need to engage a few books or someone to help you in your studies here. You apparently don't understand John's Gospel very well. Chapter 13 begins the second half of the book of John and what has been called the "Book of the Passion". No longer do we see Jesus in the public courts of the temple engaged in dialog with the crowd. No longer do we see Jesus performing the mighty signs wonders and miracles. Now He spends private time with His disciples, i.e., His 12 disciples, not just a crowd of followers. He spends this private time with the 12 leading up to His arrest, trials, crucifixion, burial and resurrection appearances.
One of the unique features here is the inclusion of the so-called "Farewell Discourses," or sometimes called the "Upper Room Discources". These chapters contain a wealth of material not found in the other Gospels. About midway through chapter 13, Judas departs from the group. From that point on through chapter 16 the material consists primarily of Jesus giving personal instructions to his disciples, i.e., the 11, concerning future events. It is not a discussion between Jesus and any others except the eleven. This is, after all, at the last supper. Chapter 17 is of course the glorious prayer that Jesus offers up just before leaving the upper room with His disciples, again the eleven.
John 18:1 When Jesus had spoken these words, He went forth with His disciples over the ravine of the Kidron, where there was a garden, into which He Himself entered, and His disciples. Theses disciples are
none other than the eleven who are later called the apostles. I can't even imagine that you might find any biblical scholar that believed otherwise.
You berate me for books and "booklearning". Please don't. It says more about you than about me.
: Jimmy Sat Aug 27, 2011 - 21:22:00
: Joyfullee Sat Aug 27, 2011 - 20:05:26
Jimmy, you need to put away those books of yours and get you some indwelling Holy Spirit teachings.
I'll tell ya right now, straight out, you truly don't see or understand the truth of God's Word, if you believe all that you wrote in your above post.
Line upon line, precept upon precept. You need to take the whole counsel of God together, not build erroneous doctrine on bits and pieces, here and there.
Blessings
: Joyfullee Sat Aug 27, 2011 - 20:18:51
: Jimmy Sat Aug 27, 2011 - 17:28:21
[What Jesus said in John 16:13 was spoken to the eleven. No one else was in the audience. When he said "he [the Spirit of truth] will guide ....he will show you things to come." Jesus was not speaking to you or me. Do not expect the Holy Spirit to give you the power of prophecy or to show you all things. Jesus spoke that to eleven men. That does not address either you or me directly. It was given to the eleven plus Paul the apostle and presumably Mathias. You can not assume the authority Jesus gave to the apostles.
John 16:17 Then said some of his disciples among themselves...
John16:29 His disciples said unto him...
John 16:31 Jesus answered them...
DISCIPLE - a learner, pupil
Blessings
Joyfulee,
You need to engage a few books or someone to help you in your studies here. You apparently don't understand John's Gospel very well. Chapter 13 begins the second half of the book of John and what has been called the "Book of the Passion". No longer do we see Jesus in the public courts of the temple engaged in dialog with the crowd. No longer do we see Jesus performing the mighty signs wonders and miracles. Now He spends private time with His disciples, i.e., His 12 disciples, not just a crowd of followers. He spends this private time with the 12 leading up to His arrest, trials, crucifixion, burial and resurrection appearances.
One of the unique features here is the inclusion of the so-called "Farewell Discourses," or sometimes called the "Upper Room Discources". These chapters contain a wealth of material not found in the other Gospels. About midway through chapter 13, Judas departs from the group. From that point on through chapter 16 the material consists primarily of Jesus giving personal instructions to his disciples, i.e., the 11, concerning future events. It is not a discussion between Jesus and any others except the eleven. This is, after all, at the last supper. Chapter 17 is of course the glorious prayer that Jesus offers up just before leaving the upper room with His disciples, again the eleven.
John 18:1 When Jesus had spoken these words, He went forth with His disciples over the ravine of the Kidron, where there was a garden, into which He Himself entered, and His disciples.
Theses disciples are none other than the eleven who are later called the apostles. I can't even imagine that you might find any biblical scholar that believed otherwise.
You berate me for books and "booklearning". Please don't. It says more about you than about me.
You can believe your book learning, or you can believe what God's Word actually says. What you have chosen to believe and what God's Word states, are two different things.
You do have a choice.
I wasn't berrating you, I was just being straightforward and frank with you.
Get you some Holy Spirit teaching brother, truly.
Blessings
Joyfulle, Maybe the spirit brought Jimmy to this maybe you are not as good a judge as you think you are on who the spirit teaches what. Maybe It could be that you need to stop listening to self and let the spirit lead you. Just maybe you could be wrong on your understanding did you even think about that for just a second.
How can you say that because someone disagrees with your understanding that they are not lead by the spirit.
: yogi bear Sat Aug 27, 2011 - 23:16:41
Joyfulle, Maybe the spirit brought Jimmy to this maybe you are not as good a judge as you think you are on who the spirit teaches what. Maybe It could be that you need to stop listening to self and let the spirit lead you. Just maybe you could be wrong on your understanding did you even think about that for just a second.
How can you say that because someone disagrees with your understanding that they are not lead by the spirit.
The entire word and all of God's promises are for us, today---including the presence and the giftings of Holy Spirit. He is the Spirit of Jesus Christ, who is living in us and through us (as we allow Him to do so), and all the things He said to the disciples was preserved for us because they are for the CHURCH, which is His people in the world from the beginning until He comes again.
It is wrong to believe that the gifts of the Spirit were for the apostles only. All His gifts were manifest in all believers in the early Church and it continues to day, as I mentioned earlier---as we allow Him. Many people in their ignorance of the word and in their poor understanding stifle Him. That is why the Body of Christ can be so factious in certain areas.
When we allow the Spirit to guide us, we will have ever-increasing unity.
That was not what was said. What was said that the Apostles was given some gifts that others were not given like in the the spirit gives in measures he see fit for each person. Not all will get the same gifts. You need to read in context my dear sister.
Just saying.
: yogi bear Sat Aug 27, 2011 - 23:16:41
Joyfulle, Maybe the spirit brought Jimmy to this maybe you are not as good a judge as you think you are on who the spirit teaches what. Maybe It could be that you need to stop listening to self and let the spirit lead you. Just maybe you could be wrong on your understanding did you even think about that for just a second.
How can you say that because someone disagrees with your understanding that they are not lead by the spirit.
The Holy Spirit does not teach conflicting understanding of God's Word to His people.
No, I don't believe I'm wrong because I believe the indwelling Holy Spirit taught me or gave me that understanding. It fits and is in context with the whole of God's Word.
I'm sorry if I offended you and/or Jimmy, it was not my intent.
The truth is the truth and on this point, this teaching is not in line with God's Word.
The world is full of books and teachers, and without doubt they can be useful; but if that is where one is getting their spiritual "meat," or understanding of God's Word, or think they're attaining to spiritual maturity, they're missing the "spirit" of God's Word.
Many Christians with the gift of teaching run into that problem.
Blessings
: yogi bear Sat Aug 27, 2011 - 23:39:06
That was not what was said. What was said that the Apostles was given some gifts that others were not given like in the the spirit gives in measures he see fit for each person. Not all will get the same gifts. You need to read in context my dear sister.
Just saying.
Context is not the issue. The truth of the word of God is. God has made available all gifts to His people. There are people who in their lifetime of serving God will experience every gift.
There is nothing that Holy Spirit gives that is exclusive to any particular person or group.
So...whatever Jesus said to His special twelve (or eleven), He is saying to you and me, as His twenty-first century disciples.
[What Jesus said in John 16:13 was spoken to the eleven. No one else was in the audience. When he said "he [the Spirit of truth] will guide ....he will show you things to come." Jesus was not speaking to you or me. Do not expect the Holy Spirit to give you the power of prophecy or to show you all things. Jesus spoke that to eleven men. That does not address either you or me directly. It was given to the eleven plus Paul the apostle and presumably Mathias. You can not assume the authority Jesus gave to the apostles.
Joyfullee is right!
You're so smart, so intelligent you've taught yourself right out of the very best blessings Jesus came to give all of us and that my friend is quite sad.
You literally think it was written as a good story, a good read for us and we are simply made privy to what Jesus gave the Apostles and are not ourselves partakers of the same blessings as them? ::frown::
Lets see what Peter says about that
God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.
Acts 15:8Peter - an Apostle, one of the original 12, the one to whom Jesus said "feed my sheep" that Peter said God gave the gentiles the Holy Spirit JUST AS HE DID US!
Ok here is where you get to use the Greek/ Hebrew Lexicon to explain to us how JUST AS HE DID US means something other than JUST AS HE DID US
Check any translation you want they all say the same thing.
He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.
Acts 15:9Peter, an Apostle who walked with Jesus said God made NO DISTINCTION between US and THEM
Yes the us he is referring to is collectively The Jewish people, but please note Peter makes no distinction between The Apostles and the rest of the Jewish people that followed Christ.
In fact NO APOSTLE made a distinction of themselves as different than the average believer in fact they made it a point to teach against doing that. They were not special, in a special class, having some form of deity others could not access by the same faith as them.
You love to argue, and you love to argue against believers having access to the spiritual gifts of God .....So your next argument will have to be
The Holy Spirit was given differently to The Apostles than He was to mere everyday believers ...and again you're WRONG!
Who did Jesus appear to in a vision to send to Paul.... was it an Apostle?
NO!
In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, "Ananias!
Sister you need to read the word they way God had it recorder. Read what the Power gifts was for like raising the dead and such. See the end of Mark it tells you why those gift followed the new Church. It was for signs to authenticate them being of the Lord. At some point do you not think that that would have been accomplished. While we have gifts today we do not need all the gifts that were for something has served the purpose and is no longer needed to do what they were given for. If you disagree then I guess God could not accomplish his mission. He has not established his truths.
And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
Mark 16:20 (KJV)
And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
Acts 2:43 (KJV)
And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch. Ac 5:12 (KJV)
God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? Hebrews 2:4 (KJV)
: yogi bear Sat Aug 27, 2011 - 23:39:06
That was not what was said. What was said that the Apostles was given some gifts that others were not given like in the the spirit gives in measures he see fit for each person. Not all will get the same gifts. You need to read in context my dear sister.
Just saying.
Jimmy's context is not the issue
Instead of his words you need to read the Word of God again, this time more carefully
You will find that YOU have like precious faith the same as Peter's and all the Apostles
How you, me or anyone operates in them depends upon our obedience and the measure of faith we apply out of what we have been given
See Romans 12:3-8
True there are giftings that come with an office but that is because the office requires them and DOES NOT mean no one but the Apostles have access to them
Philip had four unmarried daughters who had the ability to speak what God had revealed.
Acts 21:9Shall I continue?
There are many, many more examples
: yogi bear Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 00:02:37
Sister you need to read the word they way God had it recorder. Read what the Power gifts was for like raising the dead and such. See the end of Mark it tells you why those gift followed the new Church. It was for signs to authenticate them being of the Lord. At some point do you not think that that would have been accomplished. While we have gifts today we do not need all the gifts that were for something has served the purpose and is no longer needed to do what they were given for. If you disagree then I guess God could not accomplish his mission. He has not established his truths.
And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
Mark 16:20 (KJV)
And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
Acts 2:43 (KJV)
And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch. Ac 5:12 (KJV)
God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? Hebrews 2:4 (KJV)
Sorry, but that is foolishness.
All the gifts are required and in operation today in the Body of Christ. The same needs they had in the early church are in existence today. Nothing has changed.
We still lay hands on the sick and they recover; we still speak in tongues and prophesy; we still raise the dead in Jesus' name; we still cast out demons in Jesus' name!
Those who deny it of course will not be part of the Body of Christ that functions as He desires in the world and the Church. It means that the other soldiers of Christ are out doing their part, while those that opt out slumber despite their Commander's orders.
Sister you need to read the word they way God had it recorder.
I'd say the same to you even more so, being well read is to no avail when you do not understand to well what you have read
Read what the Power gifts was for like raising the dead and such. See the end of Mark it tells you why those gift followed the new Church. It was for signs to authenticate them being of the Lord.
By the same token you are not exempt. When YOU go into the Amazon, when YOU go to China, When YOU go into India, When YOU go into Harlem, Watts or East Los Angeles
YOU need to be authenticated that YOU are being of the Lord!!!!
You can't go about just Talking head knowledge
You can't go to Kenya,the Sudan Iraq or Iran talking about a powerful God, a healing God and a God of miracles....
While you yourself do not have one drop or centilla of faith to believe God can heal the person standing in front of you that needs it
Those people will laugh you out of town while they ridicule our Faith and the Bible you read from
While we have gifts today we do not need all the gifts that were for something has served the purpose and is no longer needed to do what they were given for. If you disagree then I guess God could not accomplish his mission. He has not established his truths.
You seriously do not know what you are talking about
God is not dead
God Lives in YOU, ME and ALL who have accepted Jesus
He is the same God
He is able to do the Same things
The only variance of strength or weak link in the equation is
YOUR FAITH
When you are sick can
YOUR faith make
YOU whole
Can
YOUR prayer of faith heal the sick causing them to recover
: Lively Stone Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 00:15:05
: yogi bear Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 00:02:37
Sister you need to read the word they way God had it recorder. Read what the Power gifts was for like raising the dead and such. See the end of Mark it tells you why those gift followed the new Church. It was for signs to authenticate them being of the Lord. At some point do you not think that that would have been accomplished. While we have gifts today we do not need all the gifts that were for something has served the purpose and is no longer needed to do what they were given for. If you disagree then I guess God could not accomplish his mission. He has not established his truths.
And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
Mark 16:20 (KJV)
And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
Acts 2:43 (KJV)
And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch. Ac 5:12 (KJV)
God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? Hebrews 2:4 (KJV)
Sorry, but that is foolishness.
All the gifts are required and in operation today in the Body of Christ. The same needs they had in the early church are in existence today. Nothing has changed.
We still lay hands on the sick and they recover; we still speak in tongues and prophesy; we still raise the dead in Jesus' name; we still cast out demons in Jesus' name!
Those who deny it of course will not be part of the Body of Christ that functions as He desires in the world and the Church. It means that the other soldiers of Christ are out doing their part, while those that opt out slumber despite their Commander's orders.
::amen!::
Manna to you and Joyfullee for not allowing doubt and unbelief to dilute and compromise your faith
If some prefer to exclude themselves from the blessings...so be it, all we can do is present the truth to them and at that we have done our part
: yogi bear Sat Aug 27, 2011 - 23:16:41
Joyfulle, Maybe the spirit brought Jimmy to this maybe you are not as good a judge as you think you are on who the spirit teaches what. Maybe It could be that you need to stop listening to self and let the spirit lead you. Just maybe you could be wrong on your understanding did you even think about that for just a second.
How can you say that because someone disagrees with your understanding that they are not lead by the spirit.
Simple...
The Spirit of God would not lead someone to deny Him.
The Spirit of God would not lead someone to say He cannot heal through them because they are not an Apostle
The Spirit of God would not lead anyone to say gifts have ceased because 12 mortal men are dead
The Spirit of God WOULD lead you to understand that God moves in the lives of any person who has the Faith to Believe
Maybe without realizing it, thinking you are doing something for God, you are actually participating in hindering Him, unwittingly seeking to quench The Power of God, His Holy Spirit in others simply because you deny it of yourself
Out of 120 who were in the Upper Room I'm sure you cannot name more than 14 or so...
The fact of the matter is all of them were imbued with Power and went everywhere spreading the Gospel doing the work of the ministry...
...12 people did not do it by themselves, 12 people did not spread the Gospel and establish the 1st century church by themselves
If you read carefully when the Apostles arrived in some places there were already believers and meetings being held before they got there
That's because people who have gone un-named went every where teaching the Gospel
: Elihu Sat Aug 27, 2011 - 10:40:54
: daq Sat Aug 27, 2011 - 05:30:21
OP:
3. How is this to be carried out?
Apparently it begins with a DRINK! (of Living Water) ::smile::
: Lively Stone Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 19:01:40
: Jimmy Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 18:31:58
: Lively Stone Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 14:42:21
: Jimmy Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 06:37:51
This is by far the best answer that has been given. However the answer to question 2 is not quite right. In verses 19 and 20 only "go" and "make disciples" are commands. Grammatically, "baptizing" and "teaching" are not commands as such, but in fact are modifiers to the command "make disciples". Jesus is not telling the eleven to make disciples and then baptize them and teach them; rather Jesus is telling the eleven how to make disciples. He didn't tell them to make disciples and then baptize and teach them; instead He told them how to make disciples.
Suppose I had a roof that had been damaged in one way or another or it was just getting old and needed some upkeep. I might call a roofing contractor to give me and estimate of what it would cost. I might tell him, "I want you to fix my roof, inspecting it completely, replacing any rotted or otherwise damaged wood and putting new shingles on the entire roof." Grammatically, "inspecting", "replacing" and "putting" are modifiers describing what I mean by "fix", It is a description of what how to fix the roof.
"Go, baptizing" is a complete command that tells the disciples to do two things.
If the courts took your understanding of the mandate, you would not have a leg to stand on in court should your errant roofer ignore the inclusions.
Lively,
I am sorry but you are wrong. It has nothing to do with courts. It really doesn't have anything to do with theology. It is just plain good old high school English grammar. Something that I am not sure they even bother to teach anymore. And in this case it is good old Greek grammar as well.
I am gifted in grammar and have worked as a literary editor. Believe me, 'baptizing' is in a future progressive tense and can be used in an imperative. That is what this is.
: daq Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 10:20:35
Matthew 13:52
52. Then said he unto them, Therefore every SCRIBE (GSN#1122) which is DISCIPLED (GSN#3100) INTO (GSN#1519 "eis") the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an HOUSEMASTER, (GSN#3617) which bringeth forth out of his thesaurus-treasure things new and old.
Strong's Greek Definition for #1122
1122 // grammateuv // grammateus // gram-mat-yooce' //
from 1121 ; TDNT - 1:740,127; n m
AV - scribe 66, townclerk 1; 67
1) a clerk, scribe, esp.a public servant, secretary, recorder,
whose office and influence differed in different states
2) in the Bible, a man learned in the Mosaic law and in the sacred
writings, an interpreter, teacher. Scribes examined the more
difficult and subtle questions of the law; added to the Mosaic
law decisions of various kinds thought to elucidate its meaning
and scope, and did this to the detriment of religion. Since the
advice of men skilled in the law was needed in the examination in
the causes and the solution of the difficult questions, they were
enrolled in the Sanhedrin; and are mentioned in connection with
the priests and elders of the people. See a Bible Dictionary for
more information on the scribes.
3) a religious teacher: so instructed that from his learning and
ability to teach advantage may redound to the kingdom of heaven.
http://www.apostolic-churches.net/bible/strongs/ref/?stgh=greek&stnm=1122 (http://www.apostolic-churches.net/bible/strongs/ref/?stgh=greek&stnm=1122)
Original Strong's Ref. #3100
Romanized matheteuo
Pronounced math-ayt-yoo'-o
from GSN3101; intransitively, to become a pupil; transitively, to disciple, i.e. enrol as scholar:
KJV--be disciple, instruct, teach.
Original Strong's Ref. #3101
Romanized mathetes
Pronounced math-ay-tes'
from GSN3129; a learner, i.e. pupil:
KJV--disciple.
Original Strong's Ref. #3617
Romanized oikodespotes
Pronounced oy-kod-es-pot'-ace
from GSN3624 and GSN1203; the head of a family:
KJV--goodman (of the house), householder, master of the house.
::eatingpopcorn:
Scribes, the "grammatically gifted" (and anyone else) can someone kindly point out the Old Testament passage where the following phrase is written? Yeshua clearly states; "AS THE SCIPTURE HATH SAID" before he quotes it. It does not necessarily need to be one of the following translations, any English translation will suffice:
John 7:37-39 KJV
37. In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
John 7:37-39 YGB
37. And in the last, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, 'If any one doth thirst, let him come unto me and drink;
38. he who is believing in me, according as the Writing said, Rivers out of his belly shall flow of living water;'
39. and this he said of the Spirit, which those believing in him were about to receive; for not yet was the Holy Spirit, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Where is this written in the Old Testament? ???
"Out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water ..."
"Rivers out of his belly shall flow of living water ..."
::eatingpopcorn:
"With joy you will draw water from the wells of salvation." -Isaiah 12:3
"The words of a man's mouth are deep waters; the fountain of wisdom is a bubbling brook." -Proverbs 18:4
Then he brought me back to the entrance of the house, and I saw water flowing eastward from under the threshold of the house, for the house faced east. The water flowed down from under the right side of the house, south of the altar. -Ezekiel 47:1
Ezekiel 47 is part of the answer because it concerns the baptism of the disciple of Yeshua INTO the Water IN the Word. This is why when recently asked point blank: "how would you carry out the commands given in Matthew 28:19-20?" The response was that I would begin at the "ankle level" (if it were all up to me; which it is not because one plants, another waters, another harvests, etc.,) but apparently no one understood what was said. As stated elsewhere: true baptism is a process which takes place over time and is comprised of more than a single baptismal event. In the Ezekiel passage that timeline is portrayed as "cubits" and begins at the "shoreline" where the water is at the level of the "ankles" as a willing disciple enters into the River of the Water of Life. As the disciple wades further along the timeline, (cubits) the river gets deeper and deeper until no man may cross over it at his own will. It is at this point that a decision is made to either continue onwards relinquishing control or to turn back. "Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him, (saith YHWH). But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul" (Heb.10:38-39).
The disciple who willingly continues must forfeit his own will, doctrines, tenants, theologies, teachings of men, and in faith must trust the flow of the River of the Water of the Word of Life. These are they who by faith "follow the Lamb withersoever he goeth" (Rev.14:4).
Ezekiel 47:1-9 KJV1. Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood toward the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar.
2. Then brought he me out of the way of the gate northward, and led me about the way without unto the utter gate by the way that looketh eastward; and, behold, there ran out waters on the right side.
3.
And when the man that had the line in his hand went forth eastward, he measured a thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the waters were to the ancles.4.
Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through the waters; the waters were to the knees. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through; the waters were to the loins.5.
Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over.6. And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen this? Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river.
7.
Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.8. Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
9.
And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.Ezekiel Temple ~ Body of Meshiach(http://sheshbazzardaq.com/qsanctuary2.jpg)
Hebrews 10:5-75. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, "Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not,
but a body hast thou fitted-framed me:
6. In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7. Then said I, Lo, I come, in the volume of the book it is written of me, to do thy will, O God."
Revelation 22:1-22 KJV1.
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
However: the John 7:38 reference is not found in Ezekiel... ::smile::
: Elihu Sat Aug 27, 2011 - 10:40:54
: daq Sat Aug 27, 2011 - 05:30:21
OP:
3. How is this to be carried out?
Apparently it begins with a DRINK! (of Living Water) ::smile::
: Lively Stone Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 19:01:40
: Jimmy Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 18:31:58
: Lively Stone Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 14:42:21
: Jimmy Thu Aug 25, 2011 - 06:37:51
This is by far the best answer that has been given. However the answer to question 2 is not quite right. In verses 19 and 20 only "go" and "make disciples" are commands. Grammatically, "baptizing" and "teaching" are not commands as such, but in fact are modifiers to the command "make disciples". Jesus is not telling the eleven to make disciples and then baptize them and teach them; rather Jesus is telling the eleven how to make disciples. He didn't tell them to make disciples and then baptize and teach them; instead He told them how to make disciples.
Suppose I had a roof that had been damaged in one way or another or it was just getting old and needed some upkeep. I might call a roofing contractor to give me and estimate of what it would cost. I might tell him, "I want you to fix my roof, inspecting it completely, replacing any rotted or otherwise damaged wood and putting new shingles on the entire roof." Grammatically, "inspecting", "replacing" and "putting" are modifiers describing what I mean by "fix", It is a description of what how to fix the roof.
"Go, baptizing" is a complete command that tells the disciples to do two things.
If the courts took your understanding of the mandate, you would not have a leg to stand on in court should your errant roofer ignore the inclusions.
Lively,
I am sorry but you are wrong. It has nothing to do with courts. It really doesn't have anything to do with theology. It is just plain good old high school English grammar. Something that I am not sure they even bother to teach anymore. And in this case it is good old Greek grammar as well.
I am gifted in grammar and have worked as a literary editor. Believe me, 'baptizing' is in a future progressive tense and can be used in an imperative. That is what this is.
: daq Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 10:20:35
Matthew 13:52
52. Then said he unto them, Therefore every SCRIBE (GSN#1122) which is DISCIPLED (GSN#3100) INTO (GSN#1519 "eis") the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an HOUSEMASTER, (GSN#3617) which bringeth forth out of his thesaurus-treasure things new and old.
Strong's Greek Definition for #1122
1122 // grammateuv // grammateus // gram-mat-yooce' //
from 1121 ; TDNT - 1:740,127; n m
AV - scribe 66, townclerk 1; 67
1) a clerk, scribe, esp.a public servant, secretary, recorder,
whose office and influence differed in different states
2) in the Bible, a man learned in the Mosaic law and in the sacred
writings, an interpreter, teacher. Scribes examined the more
difficult and subtle questions of the law; added to the Mosaic
law decisions of various kinds thought to elucidate its meaning
and scope, and did this to the detriment of religion. Since the
advice of men skilled in the law was needed in the examination in
the causes and the solution of the difficult questions, they were
enrolled in the Sanhedrin; and are mentioned in connection with
the priests and elders of the people. See a Bible Dictionary for
more information on the scribes.
3) a religious teacher: so instructed that from his learning and
ability to teach advantage may redound to the kingdom of heaven.
http://www.apostolic-churches.net/bible/strongs/ref/?stgh=greek&stnm=1122 (http://www.apostolic-churches.net/bible/strongs/ref/?stgh=greek&stnm=1122)
Original Strong's Ref. #3100
Romanized matheteuo
Pronounced math-ayt-yoo'-o
from GSN3101; intransitively, to become a pupil; transitively, to disciple, i.e. enrol as scholar:
KJV--be disciple, instruct, teach.
Original Strong's Ref. #3101
Romanized mathetes
Pronounced math-ay-tes'
from GSN3129; a learner, i.e. pupil:
KJV--disciple.
Original Strong's Ref. #3617
Romanized oikodespotes
Pronounced oy-kod-es-pot'-ace
from GSN3624 and GSN1203; the head of a family:
KJV--goodman (of the house), householder, master of the house.
::eatingpopcorn:
Scribes, the "grammatically gifted" (and anyone else) can someone kindly point out the Old Testament passage where the following phrase is written? Yeshua clearly states; "AS THE SCIPTURE HATH SAID" before he quotes it. It does not necessarily need to be one of the following translations, any English translation will suffice:
John 7:37-39 KJV
37. In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
John 7:37-39 YGB
37. And in the last, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, 'If any one doth thirst, let him come unto me and drink;
38. he who is believing in me, according as the Writing said, Rivers out of his belly shall flow of living water;'
39. and this he said of the Spirit, which those believing in him were about to receive; for not yet was the Holy Spirit, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Where is this written in the Old Testament? ???
"Out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water ..."
"Rivers out of his belly shall flow of living water ..."
::eatingpopcorn:
"With joy you will draw water from the wells of salvation." -Isaiah 12:3
"The words of a man's mouth are deep waters; the fountain of wisdom is a bubbling brook." -Proverbs 18:4
Then he brought me back to the entrance of the house, and I saw water flowing eastward from under the threshold of the house, for the house faced east. The water flowed down from under the right side of the house, south of the altar. -Ezekiel 47:1
Ezekiel 47 is part of the answer because it concerns the baptism of the disciple of Yeshua INTO the Water IN the Word. This is why when recently asked point blank: "how would you carry out the commands given in Matthew 28:19-20?" The response was that I would begin at the "ankle level" (if it were all up to me; which it is not because one plants, another waters, another harvests, etc.,) but apparently no one understood what was said. As stated elsewhere: true baptism is a process which takes place over time and is comprised of more than a single baptismal event. In the Ezekiel passage that timeline is portrayed as "cubits" and begins at the "shoreline" where the water is at the level of the "ankles" as a willing disciple enters into the River of the Water of Life. As the disciple wades further along the timeline, (cubits) the river gets deeper and deeper until no man may cross over it at his own will. It is at this point that a decision is made to either continue onwards relinquishing control or to turn back. "Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him, (saith YHWH). But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul" (Heb.10:38-39).
The disciple who willingly continues must forfeit his own will, doctrines, tenants, theologies, teachings of men, and in faith must trust the flow of the River of the Water of the Word of Life. These are they who by faith "follow the Lamb withersoever he goeth" (Rev.14:4).
Ezekiel 47:1-9 KJV1. Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood toward the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar.
2. Then brought he me out of the way of the gate northward, and led me about the way without unto the utter gate by the way that looketh eastward; and, behold, there ran out waters on the right side.
3.
And when the man that had the line in his hand went forth eastward, he measured a thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the waters were to the ancles.4.
Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through the waters; the waters were to the knees. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through; the waters were to the loins.5.
Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over.6. And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen this? Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river.
7.
Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.8. Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
9.
And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.Ezekiel Temple ~ Body of Meshiach(http://sheshbazzardaq.com/qsanctuary2.jpg)
Hebrews 10:5-75. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, "Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not,
but a body hast thou fitted-framed me:
6. In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7. Then said I, Lo, I come, in the volume of the book it is written of me, to do thy will, O God."
Revelation 22:1-22 KJV1.
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
However: the John 7:38 reference is not found in Ezekiel... ::smile::
All RIghty then.
No more telling anyone that they need to study scriptures.
The Saducees died out a long time ago. (Famous for their greeting of "you know nothing at all")
"Woefully ignorant"?
Surely you missed my post above.
Some may be woefully ignorant of the rules, JohnDB or just plain brazen I suspect.
: Lively Stone Sat Aug 27, 2011 - 23:44:47
: yogi bear Sat Aug 27, 2011 - 23:39:06
That was not what was said. What was said that the Apostles was given some gifts that others were not given like in the the spirit gives in measures he see fit for each person. Not all will get the same gifts. You need to read in context my dear sister.
Just saying.
Context is not the issue. The truth of the word of God is. God has made available all gifts to His people. There are people who in their lifetime of serving God will experience every gift.
There is nothing that Holy Spirit gives that is exclusive to any particular person or group.
So...whatever Jesus said to His special twelve (or eleven), He is saying to you and me, as His twenty-first century disciples.
Context is certainly the issue here as it almost always is.
John 13:11 For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, "Not all of you are clean."
John 13:27 And after the morsel, Satan then entered into him. Jesus therefore *said to him, "What you do, do quickly." I'll bet you don't think that was meant for you. However, you can think Jesus meant that for you if you like. As for me, I will continue to think that Jesus meant it for Judas. And I will continue to think that what Jesus spoke to the rest of the eleven was meant for them as well, unless it says there or elsewhere in the Bible that it was meant for all.
: Jimmy Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 08:04:27
: Lively Stone Sat Aug 27, 2011 - 23:44:47
: yogi bear Sat Aug 27, 2011 - 23:39:06
That was not what was said. What was said that the Apostles was given some gifts that others were not given like in the the spirit gives in measures he see fit for each person. Not all will get the same gifts. You need to read in context my dear sister.
Just saying.
Context is not the issue. The truth of the word of God is. God has made available all gifts to His people. There are people who in their lifetime of serving God will experience every gift.
There is nothing that Holy Spirit gives that is exclusive to any particular person or group.
So...whatever Jesus said to His special twelve (or eleven), He is saying to you and me, as His twenty-first century disciples.
Context is certainly the issue here as it almost always is.
John 13:11 For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, "Not all of you are clean."
John 13:27 And after the morsel, Satan then entered into him. Jesus therefore *said to him, "What you do, do quickly."
I'll bet you don't think that was meant for you. However, you can think Jesus meant that for you if you like. As for me, I will continue to think that Jesus meant it for Judas. And I will continue to think that what Jesus spoke to the rest of the eleven was meant for them as well, unless it says there or elsewhere in the Bible that it was meant for all.
I don't know many Christians who would not admit to doing some soul searching due to that passage.
What He spoke to the eleven was recorded for us. We are privy to His words to His inner circle because He desires all of us to be His disciples and to do the works He did---and greater.
The entire word of God was preserved and conserved for you. Setting aside passages that encourage us in the gifts and command us to serve God fully with all the power with which He anoints us hinders a person and makes him or her a stumbling block.
We should be out there preaching and preaching and healing the sick, and casting our demons, but instead we must tend to those among us who will not accept their callings. It is a distraction to the Body. The enemy is pleased.
btw: context is not an issue in this difference of opinion.
: Lively Stone Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 08:52:04
: Jimmy Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 08:04:27
: Lively Stone Sat Aug 27, 2011 - 23:44:47
: yogi bear Sat Aug 27, 2011 - 23:39:06
That was not what was said. What was said that the Apostles was given some gifts that others were not given like in the the spirit gives in measures he see fit for each person. Not all will get the same gifts. You need to read in context my dear sister.
Just saying.
Context is not the issue. The truth of the word of God is. God has made available all gifts to His people. There are people who in their lifetime of serving God will experience every gift.
There is nothing that Holy Spirit gives that is exclusive to any particular person or group.
So...whatever Jesus said to His special twelve (or eleven), He is saying to you and me, as His twenty-first century disciples.
Context is certainly the issue here as it almost always is.
John 13:11 For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, "Not all of you are clean."
John 13:27 And after the morsel, Satan then entered into him. Jesus therefore *said to him, "What you do, do quickly."
I'll bet you don't think that was meant for you. However, you can think Jesus meant that for you if you like. As for me, I will continue to think that Jesus meant it for Judas. And I will continue to think that what Jesus spoke to the rest of the eleven was meant for them as well, unless it says there or elsewhere in the Bible that it was meant for all.
I don't know many Christians who would not admit to doing some soul searching due to that passage.
What He spoke to the eleven was recorded for us. We are privy to His words to His inner circle because He desires all of us to be His disciples and to do the works He did---and greater.
The entire word of God was preserved and conserved for you. Setting aside passages that encourage us in the gifts and command us to serve God fully with all the power with which He anoints us hinders a person and makes him or her a stumbling block.
We should be out there preaching and preaching and healing the sick, and casting our demons, but instead we must tend to those among us who will not accept their callings. It is a distraction to the Body. The enemy is pleased.
btw: context is not an issue in this difference of opinion.
Please answer the question. Does what Jesus said in John 13:11 apply to you, Lively? Please tell us why you believe it does or does not. Your entire response in this thread depends upon your answer here. You can not pick and choose what you want to be applicable to yourself and what you do not. There must be a consistent basis for how you interpret the Scriptures.
BYW. Context may not be the entire issue in this difference of opinion, but it certainly is at the heart of it. How can it not? Context is central to the interpretation of any and all conversation, whether verbal, in writing, in literature in general and most certainly in the Bible.
: Jimmy Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 09:10:59
: Lively Stone Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 08:52:04
: Jimmy Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 08:04:27
: Lively Stone Sat Aug 27, 2011 - 23:44:47
: yogi bear Sat Aug 27, 2011 - 23:39:06
That was not what was said. What was said that the Apostles was given some gifts that others were not given like in the the spirit gives in measures he see fit for each person. Not all will get the same gifts. You need to read in context my dear sister.
Just saying.
Context is not the issue. The truth of the word of God is. God has made available all gifts to His people. There are people who in their lifetime of serving God will experience every gift.
There is nothing that Holy Spirit gives that is exclusive to any particular person or group.
So...whatever Jesus said to His special twelve (or eleven), He is saying to you and me, as His twenty-first century disciples.
Context is certainly the issue here as it almost always is.
John 13:11 For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, "Not all of you are clean."
John 13:27 And after the morsel, Satan then entered into him. Jesus therefore *said to him, "What you do, do quickly."
I'll bet you don't think that was meant for you. However, you can think Jesus meant that for you if you like. As for me, I will continue to think that Jesus meant it for Judas. And I will continue to think that what Jesus spoke to the rest of the eleven was meant for them as well, unless it says there or elsewhere in the Bible that it was meant for all.
I don't know many Christians who would not admit to doing some soul searching due to that passage.
What He spoke to the eleven was recorded for us. We are privy to His words to His inner circle because He desires all of us to be His disciples and to do the works He did---and greater.
The entire word of God was preserved and conserved for you. Setting aside passages that encourage us in the gifts and command us to serve God fully with all the power with which He anoints us hinders a person and makes him or her a stumbling block.
We should be out there preaching and preaching and healing the sick, and casting our demons, but instead we must tend to those among us who will not accept their callings. It is a distraction to the Body. The enemy is pleased.
btw: context is not an issue in this difference of opinion.
Please answer the question. Does what Jesus said in John 13:11 apply to you, Lively? Please tell us why you believe it does or does not. Your entire response in this thread depends upon your answer here. You can not pick and choose what you want to be applicable to yourself and what you do not. There must be a consistent basis for how you interpret the Scriptures.
BYW. Context may not be the entire issue in this difference of opinion, but it certainly is at the heart of it. How can it not? Context is central to the interpretation of any and all conversation, whether verbal, in writing, in literature in general and most certainly in the Bible.
It applies to me in that I need to make sure I am clean before God and that I am not a hypocrite and betrayer as Judas was.
That is the consistency of how Holy Spirit speaks to me in Scripture.
Also, ("yogi bear" and "Elihu") on the flip side of this "baptismal journey" are always those who stand at the banks of the river attempting to stop others from going into the deeper waters. These are like the scribes and Pharisees of whom Yeshua said: "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in" (Matt.23:13). A true "Pharisee" is therefore not necessarily one who knows, (and understands) the Law but rather one who thinks he knows "what the Scripture saith" and forces his or her opinion upon everyone else. We are all guilty of the same at one time or another, however, we should each beware that we avoid this like plague because those who do this continually and consistently, (without any Scripture to support their doctrines and claims) are soon become enemies to the Truth for hindering others from entering into the deeper waters of the River. If one plants, another waters, and another harvests, etc., then it is a team effort so long as each one knows his place and all abide in the will of the Word in Spirit. However, if the "waterers" are stoning the "harvesters" when they arrive then chaos will ensue and the "Husbandman" will make the appropriate adjustments. Ezekiel prophesies concerning the waters of the rivers of "spiritual Egypt" and them that swim near the shallow banks of the rivers like dragons, (serpents) muddying the waters with their feet, (man) and their hooves, (cattle) and thus fouling the waters of the rivers for everyone else.
Ezekiel 32:1-2 KJV
1. And it came to pass in the twelfth year, in the twelfth month, in the first day of the month, that the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
2. Son of man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of Egypt, and say unto him, Thou art like a young lion of the nations, and thou art as a whale (HSN#8577 tanniyn) in the seas: and thou camest forth with thy rivers, and troubledst the waters with thy feet, and fouledst their rivers.
Original Strong's Ref. #8577
Romanized tanniyn
Pronounced tan-neen'
or tanniym (Eze.29v3) {tan-neem'}; intensive from the same as HSN8565; a marine or land monster, i.e. sea-serpent or jackal:
KJV--dragon, sea-monster, serpent, whale.
This word is used of "Leviathan" (symbolic Satan-Adversary-Serpent).
Isaiah 27:1 KJV
1. In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon (HSN#8577 tanniyn) that is in the sea.
Continuing in Ezekiel 32 ~
Ezekiel 32:3-14 KJV
3. Thus saith the Lord God; I will therefore spread out my net over thee with a company of many people; and they shall bring thee up in my net.
4. Then will I leave thee upon the land, I will cast thee forth upon the open field, and will cause all the fowls of the heaven to remain upon thee, and I will fill the beasts of the whole earth with thee.
5. And I will lay thy flesh upon the mountains, and fill the valleys with thy height.
6. I will also water with thy blood the land wherein thou swimmest, even to the mountains; and the rivers shall be full of thee.
7. And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light.
8. All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord God.
9. I will also vex the hearts of many people, when I shall bring thy destruction among the nations, into the countries which thou hast not known.
10. Yea, I will make many people amazed at thee, and their kings shall be horribly afraid for thee, when I shall brandish my sword before them; and they shall tremble at every moment, every man for his own life, in the day of thy fall.
11. For thus saith the Lord God; The sword of the king of Babylon shall come upon thee.
12. By the swords of the mighty will I cause thy multitude to fall, the terrible of the nations, all of them: and they shall spoil the pomp of Egypt, and all the multitude thereof shall be destroyed.
13. I will destroy also all the beasts thereof from beside the great waters; neither shall the foot of man trouble them any more, nor the hoofs of beasts trouble them.
14. Then will I make their waters deep, and cause their rivers to run like oil, saith the Lord God.
Jeremiah likens "spiritual Egypt" to a "fair heifer"
Her "hired men" are likened to "fatted calves-bullocks"
Jeremiah 46:18-22 KJV
18. As I live, saith the King, whose name is the Lord of hosts, Surely as Tabor is among the mountains, and as Carmel by the sea, so shall he come.
19. O thou daughter dwelling in Egypt, furnish thyself to go into captivity: for Noph shall be waste and desolate without an inhabitant.
20. Egypt is like a very fair heifer, but destruction cometh; it cometh out of the north.
21. Also her hired men are in the midst of her like fatted bullocks; for they also are turned back, and are fled away together: they did not stand, because the day of their calamity was come upon them, and the time of their visitation.
22. The voice thereof shall go like a serpent; for they shall march with an army, and come against her with axes, as hewers of wood.
The same is the wayward son of the parable of the "Prodigal Son" who was forced into becoming a slave or hired-servant after squandering his inheritance in a foreign land. The wayward son then "joined himself" to a "citizen of that country" (Luke 15:15) which sent him into his fields to feed the swine. And when the wayward son came to his senses and returned home the Father slew the "fatted calf" which his son had "joined himself" to in his idolatry, (truly an attribute of a loving Father). ::smile::
Lively,
Lets put on our reasoning hat for just a second and us our heads for something beside a head rack.
God did not give all gifts to all. The only gift that God gave to all is the indwelling Spirit itself. See Acts 2:38,39
Acts 2:2-4 was an empowerment which had a purpose. See Acts 1:8
Now this was given only to the Apostles see Acts 2:43, Acts 5:12 and many other which show that it was the Apostles that had the power given them it the manner of Acts 2:
Any other time one received the power it was bu the hands of one of the Apostles (transfer of power by laying on of hands) but still only given to few to further carry out the establishing of the new church see Acts 6:1-7 Acts 8:14-17 Acts 19:1-7
Acts 19:1-7 is of most interest because it tells of Johns baptism of water being fulfilled in Jesus and by which giving of the indwelling spirit was added but the power still having to be transferred by laying on of hands.
One more thought when the spirit fell on Cornelius Peter had to look back all the way to acts 2 for like occurrence. He did not say refer to the Samaritans or others that came after but all the way back to themselves in Acts 2:
Just a little tidbit of truth we may all ponder on.
Let the scriptures tell the truth.
Let the word of our most Holy Father speak the thought he wishes to convey.
Let the scriptures speak for them selves.
It says what it says.
He who has ears to hear let him hear what the scriptures are saying.
How is that Gospel following your lead good am I.
: yogi bear Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 10:48:04
Lively,
Lets put on our reasoning hat for just a second and us our heads for something beside a head rack.
God did not give all gifts to all. The only gift that God gave to all is the indwelling Spirit itself. See Acts 2:38,39
Acts 2:2-4 was an empowerment which had a purpose. See Acts 1:8
Now this was given only to the Apostles see Acts 2:43, Acts 5:12 and many other which show that it was the Apostles that had the power given them it the manner of Acts 2:
Any other time one received the power it was bu the hands of one of the Apostles (transfer of power by laying on of hands) but still only given to few to further carry out the establishing of the new church see Acts 6:1-7 Acts 8:14-17 Acts 19:1-7
Acts 19:1-7 is of most interest because it tells of Johns baptism of water being fulfilled in Jesus and by which giving of the indwelling spirit was added but the power still having to be transferred by laying on of hands.
One more thought when the spirit fell on Cornelius Peter had to look back all the way to acts 2 for like occurrence. He did not say refer to the Samaritans or others that came after but all the way back to themselves in Acts 2:
Just a little tidbit of truth we may all ponder on.
Let the scriptures tell the truth.
Let the word of our most Holy Father speak the thought he wishes to convey.
Let the scriptures speak for them selves.
It says what it says.
He who has ears to hear let him hear what the scriptures are saying.
How is that Gospel following your lead good am I.
1 Cor. 12
1 Now concerning spiritual gifts brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another diverse kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God has set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healings? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
Blessings
Exactly that is what I am saying.The Spirit gives gifts accordingly, but not all get the same gifts. We are given the gifts that we need to carry out our role in the kingdom, but does not mean we will get all the gifts. God works through each of us how ever he sees fit, but gifts were for a reason, and some of the reasons are established in this land, so not all gifts are needed, so we will be gifted with different gifts than others.
Context is needed to fully understand the passages, those you quote, were to discipline in understanding of gifts. Context girl, read what it say not what you assume. Let the scripture speaks for itself.
Read what God has said, not just what we think, but what God has had written down for use to hear.
Pr 2:1-6
My son, if you accept my words and store up my commands within you, turning your ear to wisdom and applying your heart to understanding,and if you call out for insight and cry aloud for understanding, and if you look for it as for silver and search for it as for hidden treasure, then you will understand the fear of the LORD and find the knowledge of God. For the LORD gives wisdom, and from his mouth come knowledge and understanding.
Just so I can be ornery. ::tippinghat::
But more realistically...lets look at the New Testament model...and as always the lists that are made here are increasing or more in a fashion...
Ac 2:42-46 They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts,
Obviously from what is going on in this forum...somewhere this NT church is missing something.
: yogi bear Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 12:29:21
Exactly that is what I am saying.The Spirit gives gifts accordingly, but not all get the same gifts. We are given the gifts that we need to carry out our role in the kingdom, but does not mean we will get all the gifts. God works through each of us how ever he sees fit, but gifts were for a reason, and some of the reasons are established in this land, so not all gifts are needed, so we will be gifted with different gifts than others.
Context is needed to fully understand the passages, those you quote, were to discipline in understanding of gifts. Context girl, read what it say not what you assume. Let the scripture speaks for itself.
Read what God has said, not just what we think, but what God has had written down for use to hear.
ALL of God's gifts are always needed and will continue to be needed until Jesus returns.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God has set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
What you seem to be missing is that any one of these gifts operating in a born-again person is the manifestation of the indwelling Holy Spirit in that person.
Blessings
: yogi bear Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 10:48:04
Lively,
Lets put on our reasoning hat for just a second and us our heads for something beside a head rack.
What is a head rack?
God did not give all gifts to all. The only gift that God gave to all is the indwelling Spirit itself. See Acts 2:38,39
False. Holy Spirit delivers to us various gifts. Some have one major and one minor; some have one major and no minor; some have a couple majors and a few minors---but we all have been given gifts by God.
Acts 2:2-4 was an empowerment which had a purpose. See Acts 1:8
Now this was given only to the Apostles see Acts 2:43, Acts 5:12 and many other which show that it was the Apostles that had the power given them it the manner of Acts 2:
This was the advent of Holy Spirit to Earth for the first time in His role as Helper and Comforter, dwelling in and doing the work of Jesus Christ in His people, and convicting the world of sin.
Any other time one received the power it was bu the hands of one of the Apostles (transfer of power by laying on of hands) but still only given to few to further carry out the establishing of the new church see Acts 6:1-7 Acts 8:14-17 Acts 19:1-7
Everyone gets a share!
Acts 19:1-7 is of most interest because it tells of Johns baptism of water being fulfilled in Jesus and by which giving of the indwelling spirit was added but the power still having to be transferred by laying on of hands.
It shows us that all believers need to receive the baptism of Holy Spirit as well as water baptism.
One more thought when the spirit fell on Cornelius Peter had to look back all the way to acts 2 for like occurrence. He did not say refer to the Samaritans or others that came after but all the way back to themselves in Acts 2:
I doubt Peter had to look back at all for any reason. Your comment makes no sense.
No it is you that is missing the point the gifts as some were for signs . Remember the signs and wonders that followed? They were to show that those were the called out of God to establish his church. It is clearly told that they were signs for a reason. Some of the reasons have been established in this land and therefore the signs are no longer need in this land. If that is not so then we are confirming that God failed to establish his church.
Is this really us "Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe. " John 4:48 (KJV)
I am joyfully saying that God has established his Church in which I am part of and I for one do not need the signs for my faith is strong and the Spirit is growing me more and more through the word. For the words of God are spirit and life I do not need the gifts as proof.
Yes there is still gifts to be enjoyed and yes God still heals but the fact remains that not all gifts given in the same measure are need this day in this land. You really need to pay attention to context. God has fulfilled some of the purposes behind some of the gifts and has gifted us with various other gifts that fit the times.
: yogi bear Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 12:29:21
Exactly that is what I am saying.The Spirit gives gifts accordingly, but not all get the same gifts. We are given the gifts that we need to carry out our role in the kingdom, but does not mean we will get all the gifts. God works through each of us how ever he sees fit, but gifts were for a reason, and some of the reasons are established in this land, so not all gifts are needed, so we will be gifted with different gifts than others.
Context is needed to fully understand the passages, those you quote, were to discipline in understanding of gifts. Context girl, read what it say not what you assume. Let the scripture speaks for itself.
Read what God has said, not just what we think, but what God has had written down for use to hear.
Sometimes in some people in their lifetime, they can recount that they were given many gifts as they had need, and no doubt in all of Christendom, there will have been some who have in their lifetime experienced and manifested every single gift available. God's hands are not tied.
The norm is that we all receive
at least one gift for use to God in a lifetime.
I never have said that God can not give all gifts to this day just saying that they were for a purpose just as Jesus told the Apostles
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth Acts 1:8 (KJV)
and in some lands that purpose has been fulfilled or God has failed. Not all Gifts are needed and therefore no longer given to each and every person.
: yogi bear Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 12:55:27
No it is you that is missing the point the gifts as some were for signs . Remember the signs and wonders that followed? They were to show that those were the called out of God to establish his church. It is clearly told that they were signs for a reason. Some of the reasons have been established in this land and therefore the signs are no longer need in this land. If that is not so then we are confirming that God failed to establish his church.
Is this really us "Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe. " John 4:48 (KJV)
I am joyfully saying that God has established his Church in which I am part of and I for one do not need the signs for my faith is strong and the Spirit is growing me more and more through the word. For the words of God are spirit and life I do not need the gifts as proof.
Yes there is still gifts to be enjoyed and yes God still heals but the fact remains that not all gifts given in the same measure are need this day in this land. You really need to pay attention to context. God has fulfilled some of the purposes behind some of the gifts and has gifted us with various other gifts that fit the times.
God gave you a specific gift when you got saved and that gift is to be used for the benefit/edification/instruction/etc., of the body of Christ as you are led by the Spirit of God in the work that He has specifically called you, as a member, to do for His church.
Blessings
: yogi bear Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 12:55:27
No it is you that is missing the point the gifts as some were for signs . Remember the signs and wonders that followed? They were to show that those were the called out of God to establish his church. It is clearly told that they were signs for a reason. Some of the reasons have been established in this land and therefore the signs are no longer need in this land. If that is not so then we are confirming that God failed to establish his church.
Is this really us "Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe. " John 4:48 (KJV)
I am joyfully saying that God has established his Church in which I am part of and I for one do not need the signs for my faith is strong and the Spirit is growing me more and more through the word. For the words of God are spirit and life I do not need the gifts as proof.
Yes there is still gifts to be enjoyed and yes God still heals but the fact remains that not all gifts given in the same measure are need this day in this land. You really need to pay attention to context. God has fulfilled some of the purposes behind some of the gifts and has gifted us with various other gifts that fit the times.
Please fill us in when the season was over. I look around in this 21st century and I see a Church that is still being established by Jesus Christ in the world. I see a Church that is empowered by Holy Spirit and using the many gifts given to her. ( I also see a lagging bunch of churches that deny the Holy Spirit and have no power.)
Jesus said, "I will build My Church!" He is still in the same building program He started 2000 years ago. Precisely when do you believe it ended?
What is your 'context' in this regard? ::angel::
Who has the audacity to tell God that he or she doesn't need the spiritual gifts? How complacent is that? Spiritual gifts aren't for us! They are for the use in the body of Christ--and to evangelize the lost! How can one be so self-satisfied as to not avail oneself of the gifts God wants one to have to further His Kingdom?
: yogi bear Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 13:05:07
I never have said that God can not give all gifts to this day just saying that they were for a purpose just as Jesus told the Apostles
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth Acts 1:8 (KJV)
and in some lands that purpose has been fulfilled or God has failed. Not all Gifts are needed and therefore no longer given to each and every person.
Please tell us what lands have already seen the purposes of God fulfilled, and please tell us where God has failed.
Obviously people have failed God by not jumping into that river and being baptized in power. These are the hindrances in the Body of Christ that we have to work doubly hard to overcome their complacency.
The church has been built it is now being added to and the words of God should be sufficient do you really still need signs to make you believe.
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
John 20:29-31 (KJV)
: Lively Stone Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 13:13:16
: yogi bear Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 13:05:07
I never have said that God can not give all gifts to this day just saying that they were for a purpose just as Jesus told the Apostles
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth Acts 1:8 (KJV)
and in some lands that purpose has been fulfilled or God has failed. Not all Gifts are needed and therefore no longer given to each and every person.
Please tell us what lands have already seen the purposes of God fulfilled, and please tell us where God has failed.
Obviously people have failed God by not jumping into that river and being baptized in power. These are the hindrances in the Body of Christ that we have to work doubly hard to overcome their complacency.
this is prime reason that study can not be done on these forums. That is really a child of God show what Spiritual gift has been given you. Do you really want to act in this behavior if so it will do me no good to try and talk with you.
Are you saying that the Church is not here in the States?
: yogi bear Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 13:15:47
The church has been built it is now being added to and the words of God should be sufficient do you really still need signs to make you believe.
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
John 20:29-31 (KJV)
The Church of Jesus Christ is still being built---one living stone upon another (some are obviously not so lively!). It will be complete when Jesus comes for her---not before.
God is mighty and gracious to continue giving us many signs and wonders in this age.
It is established and we are adding to it not establishing it there is a difference. God did not fail to build his church that has been done he is adding to it not establishing it.
: yogi bear Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 13:22:30
It is established and we are adding to it not establishing it there is a difference. God did not fail to build his church that has been done he is adding to it not establishing it.
That is not Biblical.
: Lively Stone Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 13:23:28
: yogi bear Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 13:22:30
It is established and we are adding to it not establishing it there is a difference. God did not fail to build his church that has been done he is adding to it not establishing it.
That is not Biblical.
If you can not understand that fundamental truth then we have nowhere to go you will not see the truth in anything if you can not see the truth in that. I just do not really know where else to go with you if you reject that fundamental truth. I am sorry but you need to go back to the milk and see what God has done.
: yogi bear Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 13:22:30
It is established and we are adding to it not establishing it there is a difference. God did not fail to build his church that has been done he is adding to it not establishing it.
What about the spiritual growth of each of those who have been added? The Spiritual gifts that God gives to each member is for the purpose of spiritually growing each one of those members.
Eph 4:13 (UNTIL) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Blessings
Yogi, are you an adherent of Dispensationalism? (If you don't mind my asking.)
Blessings
: yogi bear Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 13:26:53
: Lively Stone Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 13:23:28
: yogi bear Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 13:22:30
It is established and we are adding to it not establishing it there is a difference. God did not fail to build his church that has been done he is adding to it not establishing it.
That is not Biblical.
If you can not understand that fundamental truth then we have nowhere to go you will not see the truth in anything if you can not see the truth in that. I just do not really know where else to go with you if you reject that fundamental truth. I am sorry but you need to go back to the milk and see what God has done.
Had the milk, and enjoying my steak, thanks!
No You are not listening you are just reading what I say and you are hearing what you want. I never said the Spirit does not give gifts today I never said that God can not give what he wishes.
What I said is the Spirit gives the gifts we need to spiritually grow each one of us and those members
We are given gifts but that does not mean we need the gifts that others got. I pointed you to many passages that explain why some were given such gifts that purpose has been fulfilled that is fact it is clearly told in the word.
You are not reading what I am posting or you just flat out refuse to look at what the word says.
You asked "are you an adherent of Dispensationalism" I do not even know what that is but a label you must be trying to put on me to avoid what the word says. GOD DID ESTABLISH HIS CHURCH He did not fail in that quest he did establish it whether you wish to believe it or not. The accompanying signs does not need to be any longer to confirm we are to have faith. Why do we need the signs. We need other gifts now to further the growth no establish the church.
Yogi~
Please show us where 'some' gifts are no longer needed. Why do you think the Church is not in need of every help Holy Spirit is offering us? Do you think the Church is mature and not in need of every single gift?
I believe you, like many, have misinterpreted scripture to suit perhaps a fear of being baptized in the Holy Spirit. Many believe that the marvelous power gifts given to the Apostles died out when they died. Not so. What the apostles had, the Lord passed on to enable men women and children alike from the first church on to the present. Nothing has changed! Sin still abounds and we are still serving the King as light and salt in the earth, and we need the gifts!
I have decided that we see things to far apart for me to continue in this discussion and and I by the guidance of the Spirit do not think if profitable for me to continue in this discourse so I will humbly bow out and just follow this in the shadows.
Thanks for giving me the chance to speak my peace on these matters and hope all will continue to study Gods gracious word. May God bless and be with you all as you continue in your study of his word.
: yogi bear Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 14:07:08
I have decided that we see things to far apart for me to continue in this discussion and and I by the guidance of the Spirit do not think if profitable for me to continue in this discourse so I will humbly bow out and just follow this in the shadows.
Thanks for giving me the chance to speak my peace on these matters and hope all will continue to study Gods gracious word. May God bless and be with you all as you continue in your study of his word.
I am sure the Spirit would want you to take a back seat and read this discourse for your sake, and I appreciate that.
Thank you I much appreciate your kind words
There sure is a lot of haughtiness in this thread lately. And what is even sadder is it is focused on who is superior than the other with respect to the Holy Spirit.
::frown::
: yogi bear Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 13:52:40
No You are not listening you are just reading what I say and you are hearing what you want. I never said the Spirit does not give gifts today I never said that God can not give what he wishes.
You are mistaken. I understand what you're saying, but do not agree with you.
What I said is the Spirit gives the gifts we need to spiritually grow each one of us and those members
We are given gifts but that does not mean we need the gifts that others got. I pointed you to many passages that explain why some were given such gifts that purpose has been fulfilled that is fact it is clearly told in the word.
We do not all get the same gifts, nor do we get them all. But God can activate any gift for any person anytime He wants to, beyond the original gift/s given at the time of salvation.
God specifically gave gifts that were needed when He was starting His church, those gifts are still given today, because they are still needed. Just as new members were added to the church at the beginning, they are still being added today.
You are not reading what I am posting or you just flat out refuse to look at what the word says.
I have read exactly what you have posted and I believe it is you that just flat out refuse to look at what God's Word actually states.
You asked "are you an adherent of Dispensationalism" I do not even know what that is but a label you must be trying to put on me to avoid what the word says.
The only reason I asked about Dispensationalism is because many who adhere to their beliefs carry the same misconceptions about God's Word as you do. I do not put people in boxes.
GOD DID ESTABLISH HIS CHURCH He did not fail in that quest he did establish it whether you wish to believe it or not. The accompanying signs does not need to be any longer to confirm we are to have faith. Why do we need the signs. We need other gifts now to further the growth no establish the church.
Yes, God did establish (to bring into existence, found) His church and is still building that very same church today and will continue to build until the day Jesus returns. The gifts are given today to build and grow the members of the church. (for the same purpose as when it was being established) WE don't need the signs, the signs are the evidence of the gift/s of the indwelling Holy Spirit as the church's individual members do the work that God has called each one to. That includes you.
Blessings
: Lively Stone Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 14:00:32
Yogi~
Please show us where 'some' gifts are no longer needed. Why do you think the Church is not in need of every help Holy Spirit is offering us? Do you think the Church is mature and not in need of every single gift?
I believe you, like many, have misinterpreted scripture to suit perhaps a fear of being baptized in the Holy Spirit. Many believe that the marvelous power gifts given to the Apostles died out when they died. Not so. What the apostles had, the Lord passed on to enable men women and children alike from the first church on to the present. Nothing has changed! Sin still abounds and we are still serving the King as light and salt in the earth, and we need the gifts!
I got that too while I was writing my last post.
Blessings
: P.F. Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 14:37:26
There sure is a lot of haughtiness in this thread lately. And what is even sadder is it is focused on who is superior than the other with respect to the Holy Spirit.
::frown::
That is a misapprehension of what is being said.
Rather than criticize those who bother to stick their necks out and stand up for the truth, why not enter in and help?
: Lively Stone Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 14:47:34
: P.F. Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 14:37:26
There sure is a lot of haughtiness in this thread lately. And what is even sadder is it is focused on who is superior than the other with respect to the Holy Spirit.
::frown::
That is a misapprehension of what is being said.
Rather than criticize those who bother to stick their necks out and stand up for the truth, why not enter in and help?
It's spot on sadly. Truth should be spoken in love.
: P.F. Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 14:50:15
: Lively Stone Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 14:47:34
: P.F. Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 14:37:26
There sure is a lot of haughtiness in this thread lately. And what is even sadder is it is focused on who is superior than the other with respect to the Holy Spirit.
::frown::
That is a misapprehension of what is being said.
Rather than criticize those who bother to stick their necks out and stand up for the truth, why not enter in and help?
It's spot on sadly. Truth should be spoken in love.
If there was no love, then I wouldn't care or bother to present what God says---or do you mean hearts and flowers, and toothache-y sugar talk?
: Lively Stone Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 14:00:32
Yogi~
Please show us where 'some' gifts are no longer needed. Why do you think the Church is not in need of every help Holy Spirit is offering us? Do you think the Church is mature and not in need of every single gift?
I believe you, like many, have misinterpreted scripture to suit perhaps a fear of being baptized in the Holy Spirit. Many believe that the marvelous power gifts given to the Apostles died out when they died. Not so. What the apostles had, the Lord passed on to enable men women and children alike from the first church on to the present. Nothing has changed! Sin still abounds and we are still serving the King as light and salt in the earth, and we need the gifts!
You have just presented the basis the Catholics cite for their authority of apostolic succession. They are wrong too.
It is not yogi who has misinterpreted scripture. Anyone who thinks that the Farewell Discourse of Jesus at the last supper is directed to them personally is way beyond the pale of acceptable interpretation.
The truth in your position is the last phrase in the last line above:
....we need the gifts!
Not God, not the church, you - you "need" the gifts even if you have to imagine them.
: Jimmy Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 15:04:28
: Lively Stone Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 14:00:32
Yogi~
Please show us where 'some' gifts are no longer needed. Why do you think the Church is not in need of every help Holy Spirit is offering us? Do you think the Church is mature and not in need of every single gift?
I believe you, like many, have misinterpreted scripture to suit perhaps a fear of being baptized in the Holy Spirit. Many believe that the marvelous power gifts given to the Apostles died out when they died. Not so. What the apostles had, the Lord passed on to enable men women and children alike from the first church on to the present. Nothing has changed! Sin still abounds and we are still serving the King as light and salt in the earth, and we need the gifts!
You have just presented the basis the Catholics cite for their authority of apostolic succession. They are wrong too.
That is not true. The Catholic belief on apostolic succession is nothing like what the Lord has done for the Church.
It is not yogi who has misinterpreted scripture. Anyone who thinks that the Farewell Discourse of Jesus at the last supper is directed to them personally is way beyond the pale of acceptable interpretation.
Actually, it is for us all.
The truth in your position is the last phrase in the last line above:
....we need the gifts!
Not God, not the church, you - you "need" the gifts even if you have to imagine them.
We all need them if we are to be effective workers for the Kingdom of God.
1Cr 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
Phl 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.
1Th 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received [it] not [as] the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
One cannot accomplish the work that God has given one without the effective working of the indwelling Holy Spirit through them; without that, one is only attempting to do what they think God wants of them and that would be through the flesh, the carnal nature....which is not of God.
Blessings
: Lively Stone Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 15:08:21
: Jimmy Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 15:04:28
: Lively Stone Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 14:00:32
Yogi~
Please show us where 'some' gifts are no longer needed. Why do you think the Church is not in need of every help Holy Spirit is offering us? Do you think the Church is mature and not in need of every single gift?
I believe you, like many, have misinterpreted scripture to suit perhaps a fear of being baptized in the Holy Spirit. Many believe that the marvelous power gifts given to the Apostles died out when they died. Not so. What the apostles had, the Lord passed on to enable men women and children alike from the first church on to the present. Nothing has changed! Sin still abounds and we are still serving the King as light and salt in the earth, and we need the gifts!
You have just presented the basis the Catholics cite for their authority of apostolic succession. They are wrong too.
That is not true. The Catholic belief on apostolic succession is nothing like what the Lord has done for the Church.
It is true. The basis you cite for the reason you believe as you do is precisely the same reason they give for apostolic succession.
: Lively Stone Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 15:08:21
It is not yogi who has misinterpreted scripture. Anyone who thinks that the Farewell Discourse of Jesus at the last supper is directed to them personally is way beyond the pale of acceptable interpretation.
Actually, it is for us all.
Yes, it is for us all. But it is not, as you seem not to understand, about any of us.
: Lively Stone Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 15:08:21
The truth in your position is the last phrase in the last line above:
....we need the gifts!
Not God, not the church, you - you "need" the gifts even if you have to imagine them.
We all need them if we are to be effective workers for the Kingdom of God.
No we do not. We have the Scriptures. They are sufficient. That is obvious since some much of Christendom does not adhere to your Pentecostal beliefs and alleged abilities.
: Joyfullee Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 15:16:38
1Cr 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
Phl 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.
1Th 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received [it] not [as] the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
One cannot accomplish the work that God has given one without the effective working of the indwelling Holy Spirit through them; without that, one is only attempting to do what they think God wants of them and that would be through the flesh, the carnal nature....which is not of God.
Blessings
And therein is the problem. The indwelling Holy Spirit has nothing to do with the gifts that you proclaim. It was not the indwelling Holy Spirit with gave the disciples or anyone else the power to work signs, wonders and miracles. The indwelling Holy Spirit is the promise to all who are saved. It is the signature difference between salvation under the OT and salvation under the NT.
The gifts that were given were over and beyond the giving of the indwelling Holy Spirit.
: Jimmy Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 15:20:17
No we do not. We have the Scriptures. They are sufficient. That is obvious since some much of Christendom does not adhere to your Pentecostal beliefs and alleged abilities.
The scriptures are sufficient, but unless you experience the Rhema of God---the specific word to you, personally, you will be powerless to do what God has called you to do without hardship.
God's Rhema word and His anointing is what makes the word come alive personally and His anointing is what authorizes you to go and do what He calls you to do and achieve great success and without the hardship you would have if you had done things in your own strength.
Think of the pool of healing in which sick people would drop into when the Spirit stirred up the water---the first one in gets healed. Rhema works like that in our lives. The word of God is the pool, but when Holy Spirit stirs it up, and drops personal revelation into you, you've got something amazingly powerful from Him that can change your life and your direction and bless you with ministry and growth---and it will extend to affect other people's lives!
John 6:63The Spirit alone gives eternal life. Human effort accomplishes nothing. And the very words
(RHEMA) I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
: Jimmy Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 15:20:17
It is true. The basis you cite for the reason you believe as you do is precisely the same reason they give for apostolic succession.
That is false. Perhaps you need to bone up on Catholicism, but better than that---study the word more closely.
Yes, it is for us all. But it is not, as you seem not to understand, about any of us.
No---it is about Jesus. You are choosing to misinterpret in this thread for argument's sake.
No we do not. We have the Scriptures. They are sufficient. That is obvious since some much of Christendom does not adhere to your Pentecostal beliefs and alleged abilities.
God believes we do need the gifts. That is why He makes them available to us. Scriptures are sufficient for knowledge, but empowerment comes by Holy Spirit. Don't deny Him His ministry in the Body. That is a huge spiritual blunder.
FYI, for your pigeonholing pleasure: I am not Pentecostal.
: Jimmy Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 15:27:28
: Joyfullee Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 15:16:38
1Cr 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
Phl 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.
1Th 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received [it] not [as] the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
One cannot accomplish the work that God has given one without the effective working of the indwelling Holy Spirit through them; without that, one is only attempting to do what they think God wants of them and that would be through the flesh, the carnal nature....which is not of God.
Blessings
And therein is the problem. The indwelling Holy Spirit has nothing to do with the gifts that you proclaim. It was not the indwelling Holy Spirit with gave the disciples or anyone else the power to work signs, wonders and miracles. The indwelling Holy Spirit is the promise to all who are saved. It is the signature difference between salvation under the OT and salvation under the NT.
The gifts that were given were over and beyond the giving of the indwelling Holy Spirit.
1 Cor. 2
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Ghost teaches; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
You are missing out of so much of our Lord in your daily life, because you refuse the truth of God's very Word.
Everything that LivelyStone and I have attempted to share with you concerning the truth of God's Word, you brush off as foolishness.
Blessings
: Lively Stone Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 15:32:03
[Think of the pool of healing in which sick people would drop into when the Spirit stirred up the water---the first one in gets healed. Rhema works like that in our lives.
Rhema works like that???? rofl
: Joyfullee Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 15:51:38
: Jimmy Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 15:27:28
: Joyfullee Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 15:16:38
1Cr 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
Phl 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.
1Th 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received [it] not [as] the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
One cannot accomplish the work that God has given one without the effective working of the indwelling Holy Spirit through them; without that, one is only attempting to do what they think God wants of them and that would be through the flesh, the carnal nature....which is not of God.
Blessings
And therein is the problem. The indwelling Holy Spirit has nothing to do with the gifts that you proclaim. It was not the indwelling Holy Spirit with gave the disciples or anyone else the power to work signs, wonders and miracles. The indwelling Holy Spirit is the promise to all who are saved. It is the signature difference between salvation under the OT and salvation under the NT.
The gifts that were given were over and beyond the giving of the indwelling Holy Spirit.
1 Cor. 2
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Ghost teaches; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
You are missing out of so much of our Lord in your daily life, because you refuse the truth of God's very Word.
Everything that LivelyStone and I have attempted to share with you concerning the truth of God's Word, you brush off as foolishness.
Blessings
In Corithians 2, Paul was not talking about you are me. He was presenting his authority and credentials as an apostle. You are not an apostle.
1Co 2:1 And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God.
1Co 2:2 For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.
1Co 2:3 And I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling.
1Co 2:4 And my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
1Co 2:5 that your faith should not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God. How on earth do you guys think that you have the same authority as the apostles. Unbelievable.
: Joyfullee Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 15:51:38
Everything that LivelyStone and I have attempted to share with you concerning the truth of God's Word, you brush off as foolishness.
Only because it is. It is worse than foolishness. It is a grotesque distortion of God's word. Neither of you can figure out what of God;s word is for you or about you and what the difference is. It is just that simple. The entire Bible is for you. But in fact not much of it is actually about you. But you both seem to go through the Bible looking for things God said about others and if it suits you, you simply appropriate it to yourself and think it is God's word. Foolishness indeed.
: Jimmy Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 16:04:51
: Joyfullee Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 15:51:38
Everything that LivelyStone and I have attempted to share with you concerning the truth of God's Word, you brush off as foolishness.
Only because it is. It is worse than foolishness. It is a grotesque distortion of God's word. Neither of you can figure out what of God;s word is for you or about you and what the difference is. It is just that simple. The entire Bible is for you. But in fact not much of it is actually about you. But you both seem to go through the Bible looking for things God said about others and if it suits you, you simply appropriate it to yourself and think it is God's word. Foolishness indeed.
1 Cor. 2
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Ghost teaches; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14
But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.Blessings
: Joyfullee Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 16:16:53
: Jimmy Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 16:04:51
: Joyfullee Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 15:51:38
Everything that LivelyStone and I have attempted to share with you concerning the truth of God's Word, you brush off as foolishness.
Only because it is. It is worse than foolishness. It is a grotesque distortion of God's word. Neither of you can figure out what of God;s word is for you or about you and what the difference is. It is just that simple. The entire Bible is for you. But in fact not much of it is actually about you. But you both seem to go through the Bible looking for things God said about others and if it suits you, you simply appropriate it to yourself and think it is God's word. Foolishness indeed.
1 Cor. 2
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Ghost teaches; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Blessings
As I noted above,
In Corithians 2, Paul was not talking about you are me. He was presenting his authority and credentials as an apostle. You are not an apostle.
1Co 2:1 And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God.
1Co 2:2 For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.
1Co 2:3 And I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling.
1Co 2:4 And my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
1Co 2:5 that your faith should not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.
How on earth do you guys think that you have the same authority as the apostles. Unbelievable.
: Jimmy Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 16:59:15
: Joyfullee Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 16:16:53
: Jimmy Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 16:04:51
: Joyfullee Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 15:51:38
Everything that LivelyStone and I have attempted to share with you concerning the truth of God's Word, you brush off as foolishness.
Only because it is. It is worse than foolishness. It is a grotesque distortion of God's word. Neither of you can figure out what of God;s word is for you or about you and what the difference is. It is just that simple. The entire Bible is for you. But in fact not much of it is actually about you. But you both seem to go through the Bible looking for things God said about others and if it suits you, you simply appropriate it to yourself and think it is God's word. Foolishness indeed.
1 Cor. 2
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Ghost teaches; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Blessings
As I noted above,
In Corithians 2, Paul was not talking about you are me. He was presenting his authority and credentials as an apostle. You are not an apostle.
1Co 2:1 And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God.
1Co 2:2 For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.
1Co 2:3 And I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling.
1Co 2:4 And my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
1Co 2:5 that your faith should not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.
How on earth do you guys think that you have the same authority as the apostles. Unbelievable.
Gen. 1:1 to Rev. 22:21 is for the whole church, for our learning.
God did not divide His Word up into little pieces, for different folks. Man did.
Choosing to believe as you do, I see that you can pick and choose, keep for yourself what you like and discard (as in, Oh, that's for somebody else) what you don't care for.
Get you some Holy Spirit teaching and get on with the work, through the leading of the indwelling Holy Spirit at whatever gift/s God gave you at your salvation.
Blessings
: fish153 Fri Aug 26, 2011 - 14:03:53
I think it's wonderful you're bringing up grammar. My grammar died several years ago at the age of 90. She was such a sweet woman, and made some of the best clam chowder you've ever tasted. So, though I don't think of her that often any more, I have to say that my grammar was, and still is very important to me.
Psalm 91
13Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet.
14Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name.
15He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.
16With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation.
: Joyfullee Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 17:30:18
: Jimmy Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 16:59:15
: Joyfullee Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 16:16:53
: Jimmy Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 16:04:51
: Joyfullee Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 15:51:38
Everything that LivelyStone and I have attempted to share with you concerning the truth of God's Word, you brush off as foolishness.
Only because it is. It is worse than foolishness. It is a grotesque distortion of God's word. Neither of you can figure out what of God;s word is for you or about you and what the difference is. It is just that simple. The entire Bible is for you. But in fact not much of it is actually about you. But you both seem to go through the Bible looking for things God said about others and if it suits you, you simply appropriate it to yourself and think it is God's word. Foolishness indeed.
1 Cor. 2
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Ghost teaches; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Blessings
As I noted above,
In Corithians 2, Paul was not talking about you are me. He was presenting his authority and credentials as an apostle. You are not an apostle.
1Co 2:1 And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God.
1Co 2:2 For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.
1Co 2:3 And I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling.
1Co 2:4 And my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
1Co 2:5 that your faith should not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.
How on earth do you guys think that you have the same authority as the apostles. Unbelievable.
Gen. 1:1 to Rev. 22:21 is for the whole church, for our learning.
Of course. As I have already stated, the entire Bible is for us. It is not necessarily about us. You quite obviously do not know the difference. God told Abraham to offer up his son as a burnt offering. Assuming that you have children, do you think that is about you as well as about Abraham? I would hope not. But at this point, given the way you intprepret, I can't be certain.
: Jimmy Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 16:04:51
: Joyfullee Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 15:51:38
Everything that LivelyStone and I have attempted to share with you concerning the truth of God's Word, you brush off as foolishness.
Only because it is. It is worse than foolishness. It is a grotesque distortion of God's word. Neither of you can figure out what of God;s word is for you or about you and what the difference is. It is just that simple. The entire Bible is for you. But in fact not much of it is actually about you. But you both seem to go through the Bible looking for things God said about others and if it suits you, you simply appropriate it to yourself and think it is God's word. Foolishness indeed.
What does the word say about those who consider truth as foolishness? This applies:
1 Corinthians 2:14But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
: Jimmy Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 16:59:15
How on earth do you guys think that you have the same authority as the apostles. Unbelievable.
We who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ should understand that in His Name we have an even mightier authority than that of the police officer.
Matthew 28:18Jesus came and told his disciples, "I have been given all authority in heaven and on earth.
Jesus has given this authority to us, His followers.
Luke 9:1-2 One day Jesus called together his twelve disciples and gave them power and authority to cast out all demons and to heal all diseases. Then he sent them out to tell everyone about the Kingdom of God and to heal the sick.
Mark 13:34"The coming of the Son of Man can be illustrated by the story of a man going on a long trip. When he left home, he gave each of his slaves instructions about the work they were to do, and he told the gatekeeper to watch for his return.
Mark 16:15, 17, 18And then he told them, "Go into all the world and preach the Good News to everyone. ...These miraculous signs will accompany those who believe: They will cast out demons in my name, and they will speak in new languages. They will be able to handle snakes with safety, and if they drink anything poisonous, it won't hurt them. They will be able to place their hands on the sick, and they will be healed.
I shutter to think of all the poor misguided pastors and teachers who have been feeding the sheep all through the centuries in ignorance!
Maybe some one should have told them Jesus was just talking to Peter!
::laughinghisterically::
That is the most ignorant way of reading the Word I have ever run across.
Most of us understand when a passage of scripture pertains to Jews and does not pertain to Gentiles but it is completely ridiculous to exclude one's self from the promises of God simply because the way it was presented was in a conversation between Joshua and Moses or God and Joshua, Jesus and Peter or Jesus and the woman at the well
There's no word for a doctrine based on studying the Word like that other than AMISS
: gospel Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 18:06:35
I shutter to think of all the poor misguided pastors and teachers who have been feeding the sheep all through the centuries in ignorance!
Maybe some one should have told them Jesus was just talking to Peter!
::laughinghisterically::
That is the most ignorant way of reading the Word I have ever run across.
Most of us understand when a passage of scripture pertains to Jews and does not pertain to Gentiles but it is completely ridiculous to exclude one's self from the promises of God simply because the way it was presented was in a conversation between Joshua and Moses or God and Joshua, Jesus and Peter or Jesus and the woman at the well
There's no word for a doctrine based on studying the like that other than AMISS
(http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee267/Floatingaxe/Thumbs%20up%20and%20down/thumbsup3.gif)
: Jimmy Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 16:04:51
: Joyfullee Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 15:51:38
Everything that LivelyStone and I have attempted to share with you concerning the truth of God's Word, you brush off as foolishness.
Only because it is. It is worse than foolishness. It is a grotesque distortion of God's word. Neither of you can figure out what of God;s word is for you or about you and what the difference is. It is just that simple. The entire Bible is for you. But in fact not much of it is actually about you. But you both seem to go through the Bible looking for things God said about others and if it suits you, you simply appropriate it to yourself and think it is God's word. Foolishness indeed.
Ephesians 3:16-19I pray that from his glorious, unlimited resources he will empower you with inner strength through his Spirit. Then Christ will make his home in your hearts as you trust in him. Your roots will grow down into God's love and keep you strong. And may you have the power to understand, as all God's people should, how wide, how long, how high, and how deep his love is. May you experience the love of Christ, though it is too great to understand fully. Then you will be made complete with all the fullness of life and power that comes from God.
God did not give all gifts to all. The only gift that God gave to all is the indwelling Spirit itself. See Acts 2:38,39
Not only are you scripturally incorrect...but in your very statement is the contradiction to your own point!
First of all The Holy Spirit HIMSELF not itself!
The Holy Spirit is not an IT!
Your choice of words shows us that your first and greatest mistake is NOT BEING ABSOLUTELY CLEAR within your own heart and mind that the Holy Spirit IS GOD
So what you, unwittingly speak of as "the only gift" IS actually THE GREATEST GIFT, GOD HIMSELF LIVING WITHIN US!!!!
That established my next point is God is still powerful today as He has always been, He is still capable and able to do anything He's ever done!
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
Hebrews 13:8Now since basic Christian doctrine seems to often go awry in this forum please refer to the following verses;
No doubt someone will say Jesus was only speaking to the Apostles in these verses as well...to which I say, if you see your faith in that shabby of a light, there is no hope for you in this discussion for anyone that one denies themselves the promise of praying to God in the Name of Jesus....
FYI Praying to the Father in Jesus Name
That's what known as AUTHORITY, in legal terms its whats known as Power of Attorney
If you have the legal right to use a person's name you have authority IN THE NAME of that person, in this case the person is Jesus!
"If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.
John 14:14
John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last.
Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.
John 16:23 In that day you will no longer ask me anything. I tell you the truth, my Father
will give you whatever you ask in my name.John 16:24[/b] Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.
Lets summarize the 3 Points established herein
The Holy Spirit is God
God is the same He does not change
We have the authority to pray to The Father in the Name of Jesus
The Holy Spirit is the Gift of the Father
The Holy Spirit lives in us
ALL THE GIFTS BELONG TO HIM
The only weak link to The Gifts operating through a believer
IS THE WEAKNESS OF THE BELIEVERS OWN FAITH and His lack of understanding of what he has been given and WHOM it is living within him. Hence a weak faithed believer will not lay hands praying for healing because they don't believe God still heals according to ones faith
The only gift that God gave to all is the indwelling Spirit itself.
The
ONLY gift!!??
Its actually quite funny in a very sad sort of way that you see the greatest of all Gifts God has given as somehow minimal or not enough
God gave us His Indwelling Presence and you call that only ::frown::
and on top of that you see His Inner presence somehow as inert and lifeless incapable of healing, miracles and all the things He is capable of doing
Was He inert inside of Jesus when Jesus walked as a man on earth?
How can He lead you and guide you, if you see Him as some sort of inert lifeless force?
Seriously some of you need to stop reading and start praying....SERIOUSLY!
You do not understand what you're reading....at ALL!
This thread is still full of haughtiness. ::frown::
: Lively Stone Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 17:47:19
: Jimmy Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 16:04:51
: Joyfullee Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 15:51:38
Everything that LivelyStone and I have attempted to share with you concerning the truth of God's Word, you brush off as foolishness.
Only because it is. It is worse than foolishness. It is a grotesque distortion of God's word. Neither of you can figure out what of God;s word is for you or about you and what the difference is. It is just that simple. The entire Bible is for you. But in fact not much of it is actually about you. But you both seem to go through the Bible looking for things God said about others and if it suits you, you simply appropriate it to yourself and think it is God's word. Foolishness indeed.
What does the word say about those who consider truth as foolishness? This applies:
1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
It is not the things of the Spirit of God that I am calling foolish. But the ego of yours wouldn't have seen that in a million years.
If in fact Paul's writing were in fact as you proclaim, then Paul's writing would not have even been required. If all the saints in Corinth were inspired receptors of the revelation from the Holy Spirit as you claim, then Paul was simply "preaching to the choir". But of course Paul wasn't referring to all or any of those in Corinth, nor to you. But again you can't seem to accept that you are not an apostle and are not inspired as an apostle which was the subject of 1 Cor 2.
: gospel Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 18:36:37
The only gift that God gave to all is the indwelling Spirit itself.
The ONLY gift!!??
Its actually quite funny in a very sad sort of way that you see the greatest of all Gifts God has given as somehow minimal or not enough
Once again you don't read very well. But I accept that. So I will let you answer yourself. What gift beside the indwelling Holy Spirit has God given to every saint?
: gospel Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 18:36:37
The only gift that God gave to all is the indwelling Spirit itself.
The ONLY gift!!??
Its actually quite funny in a very sad sort of way that you see the greatest of all Gifts God has given as somehow minimal or not enough
Once again you don't read very well. But I accept that. So I will let you answer yourself. What gift besides the indwelling Holy Spirit has God given to every saint?
Excellent points Gospel!
Blessings ::smile::
JESUS IS LORD!
: P.F. Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 19:15:20
This thread is still full of haughtiness. ::frown::
Haughtiness is in snubbing God's great gifts.
: Jimmy Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 19:36:23
: Lively Stone Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 17:47:19
: Jimmy Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 16:04:51
: Joyfullee Sun Aug 28, 2011 - 15:51:38
Everything that LivelyStone and I have attempted to share with you concerning the truth of God's Word, you brush off as foolishness.
Only because it is. It is worse than foolishness. It is a grotesque distortion of God's word. Neither of you can figure out what of God;s word is for you or about you and what the difference is. It is just that simple. The entire Bible is for you. But in fact not much of it is actually about you. But you both seem to go through the Bible looking for things God said about others and if it suits you, you simply appropriate it to yourself and think it is God's word. Foolishness indeed.
What does the word say about those who consider truth as foolishness? This applies:
1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
If in fact Paul's writing were in fact as you proclaim, then Paul's writing would not have even been required. If all the saints in Corinth were inspired receptors of the revelation from the Holy Spirit as you claim, then Paul was simply "preaching to the choir". But of course Paul wasn't referring to all or any of those in Corinth, nor to you. But again you can't seem to accept that you are not an apostle and are not inspired as an apostle which was the subject of 1 Cor 2.
Paul's writings are right there in Scripture and they are still snubbed!
We have every authority and every blessing that Jesus had and still does. We do the works of Christ. We are the mind of Christ.
Ephesians 1:3All praise to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ.
Everything that Jesus died to give us is in our spirits at salvation. We must learn by the Spirit of God how to appropriate them into the physical realm: healing, miracles, overcoming, prosperity.
Locking this topic...
It has been covered ad nauseum at this point.
and with all the brinking and flaming going on within it...I am locking it down.