::shrug:: When we look at Rev chpt 4 & 5, we have a problem with our current understanding of the Trinity. The Christian ministry believes that it is 'The Father' sitting on the throne. Let us look at other scriptures;
1) The Son created all things, and it pleased The Father to let The Son do so.
2) The Son must reconcile His kingdom, before submitting Himself and His kingdom, unto The Father, so that God can be 'all-in-all'.
3) The Father (the INVISIBLE GOD) dwells in the light, that no man can enter. No man has seen The Father 'AT ANY TIME'.
4) Man has seen Christ sitting on the right hand of God.
5) Isaiah 44:6 identifies who OUR GOD, is.
6) Ephesians 4:6 and Rev 1:6 use the conjunction "AND" (it does not use the wording, "WHO IS...").
7) The Son was begotten before the world was (without mother). The Son as Christ, has a mother (As Son of Man, He is our 'brother').
8) Jesus stated, that He was looking forward to returning to the glory that He had, before the world was (The Lord God Almighty....the creator).
9) Revelation is the process of 'reconciliation by The Word', who is 'The Son'.
10) Christ states, "My Father and I are one."
Taking in to account the above, is it not true, that there is a difference between The Son as 'The Lord God Almighty' and The Son, as 'The Lamb' (the resurrected Son of Man)? Have we 'discarded' the Son, as The Lord God Almighty, and now believe, that The Son is 'locked in' as The Lamb, only?
I believe that The Lord's Prayer, Isaiah 44:6, and Rev chpt 4 and 5, refer to THE SON. This would mean, that there are 'four figures', and not 'three'.
Your thoughts, would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
My understanding of the trinity actually makes sense. But I doubt that it is also "our" understanding. ::eek::
Thorwald said:
I believe that The Lord's Prayer, Isaiah 44:6, and Rev chpt 4 and 5, refer to THE SON. This would mean, that there are 'four figures', and not 'three'.
Your thoughts, would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
===========================================
Well, right off I'd say that you do have a problem with understanding the Holy Trinity. 'Cause if you believe there's FOUR figures and not three, that would be a Holy Quadrinity would it not?
::smile::
God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost, three persons in One, the Holy Trinity: God OF man, God AS man, God IN man.
It ain't brain surgery, although some believe it would take a little surgery to understand it...............
::pondering:: ::shrug:: ::smile::
I would submit that the understanding of the Trinity as stated in the ancient creeds is ok, as far as it goes but is expressed entirely wrongly.
One can only make sense of this if you look at this verse:
Deu 6:4 "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!
In Hebrew: Sh'ma Yisrael, Adonai Elohenu Adoni echad.
Look at the last word - echad. It means "one" but what kind of one?
Since Moses also wrote it here:
Gen 2:24 For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one [echad] flesh.
We can see clearly that it cannot be taken as an absolute singularity. Rather it is used to mean a composite unity. The husband is not the same person as the wife, but together they make "one flesh." This is a covenantal understanding.
If the creeds had reflected this understanding, they would not be so apparently unbiblical to the Jews.
Please also note in the Deut. verse that God is mentioned 3 times: The Lord - Our God - The Lord.
They both sit on thrones. Father has his throne
Jesus spoke of his throne, his throne sits on the right hand of the Father.
The disciples wanted to sit with Jesus at his throne, but Jesus said that they asked a tough request.
Jesus spoke these words to the Pharisees and Scribes and this is also true about the Trinity as it is the doctrine of all Christians starting with the Roman Catholic Church. The doctrines were incorporated at the Council of Nicene in around 625 with Constantinople as Emperor and he was not a Christian. This is were the Nicene Creed was made up at. You can not find salvation through the Church as the Catholics have put it that salvation comes through the Church. Evidently they forgot about the one and only living God. That is also were they came up with the Apostolic succession.
Now the scripture:
Look at verse 19 that is what all so called Christians are following today and has been every since the Church system came about through the Roman Catholics.
Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
Mat 15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
Mat 15:5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
Mat 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
Mat 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
: Legate Sat Oct 22, 2011 - 17:50:57
Jesus spoke these words to the Pharisees and Scribes and this is also true about the Trinity as it is the doctrine of all Christians starting with the Roman Catholic Church. The doctrines were incorporated at the Council of Nicene in around 625 with Constantinople as Emperor and he was not a Christian. This is were the Nicene Creed was made up at. You can not find salvation through the Church as the Catholics have put it that salvation comes through the Church. Evidently they forgot about the one and only living God. That is also were they came up with the Apostolic succession.
Now the scripture:
Look at verse 19 that is what all so called Christians are following today and has been every since the Church system came about through the Roman Catholics.
Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
Mat 15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
Mat 15:5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
Mat 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
Mat 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Hello Legate,
The Council of Nicea was called in
325 by the Roman Emperor
Constantine. Not only that, but the Trinity was
not defined at Nicea but at the
Council of Constantinople in
360.
Its solemn definition was not a new innovation at the Council of Constantinople. The term "Trinity" can be traced back much farther, to the writings of Origen and Tertullian (early 3rd century) and its concept even farther, to the writings of Polycarp, Ignatius, and Justin Martyr, as early as 2nd century. That's as early as extra-biblical writings come.
Much of your other "accusations" could be dealt with but they are off topic. However let's look at the Bible verse that you quoted, as well as some context.
Mat 15:1 Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said,
Mat 15:2 "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders?*
They do not wash [their] hands when they eat a meal.
: Catholica Wed Oct 26, 2011 - 16:46:00
: Legate Sat Oct 22, 2011 - 17:50:57
Jesus spoke these words to the Pharisees and Scribes and this is also true about the Trinity as it is the doctrine of all Christians starting with the Roman Catholic Church. The doctrines were incorporated at the Council of Nicene in around 625 with Constantinople as Emperor and he was not a Christian. This is were the Nicene Creed was made up at. You can not find salvation through the Church as the Catholics have put it that salvation comes through the Church. Evidently they forgot about the one and only living God. That is also were they came up with the Apostolic succession.
Now the scripture:
Look at verse 19 that is what all so called Christians are following today and has been every since the Church system came about through the Roman Catholics.
Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
Mat 15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
Mat 15:5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
Mat 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
Mat 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Hello Legate,
The Council of Nicea was called in 325 by the Roman Emperor Constantine. Not only that, but the Trinity was not defined at Nicea but at the Council of Constantinople in 360.
Its solemn definition was not a new innovation at the Council of Constantinople. The term "Trinity" can be traced back much farther, to the writings of Origen and Tertullian (early 3rd century) and its concept even farther, to the writings of Polycarp, Ignatius, and Justin Martyr, as early as 2nd century. That's as early as extra-biblical writings come.
Much of your other "accusations" could be dealt with but they are off topic. However let's look at the Bible verse that you quoted, as well as some context.
Mat 15:1 Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said,
Mat 15:2 "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders?* They do not wash [their] hands when they eat a meal.
As a Christian I must say blessed be the name of the Holy Trinity, Holy father, Holy Son, and the Holy Ghost. I have recently just got done reading a book called "The Jewish Trinity" by a Messianic Jew. Though I don't necessarily believe everything he writes in that book, he makes a pretty good argument in support of the OT Jewish writers all openly believing in the three persons of the Godhead, as Christians now believe. That is the only way that the Bible even makes any sense at all. And though Constantine was not a Christian the bishops and elders at the Council of Nicea were indeed Christians who had just come out of a very great and powerful persecution. Many of them still bore the scares of their sufferings for Christ, I would not begin to question their loyalty to Jesus Christ and the scriptures.
: DaveW Tue Oct 11, 2011 - 13:44:50
I would submit that the understanding of the Trinity as stated in the ancient creeds is ok, as far as it goes but is expressed entirely wrongly.
One can only make sense of this if you look at this verse:
Deu 6:4 "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!
In Hebrew: Sh'ma Yisrael, Adonai Elohenu Adoni echad.
Look at the last word - echad. It means "one" but what kind of one?
Since Moses also wrote it here:
Gen 2:24 For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one [echad] flesh.
We can see clearly that it cannot be taken as an absolute singularity. Rather it is used to mean a composite unity. The husband is not the same person as the wife, but together they make "one flesh." This is a covenantal understanding.
If the creeds had reflected this understanding, they would not be so apparently unbiblical to the Jews.
Please also note in the Deut. verse that God is mentioned 3 times: The Lord - Our God - The Lord.
Trying to twist the Shema is futile Dave.
Accepting it in truth and finding it manifested through the NT will lead you to truth, however the triangular doctrine will need to be put down first.
But if you have ears that dont hear and eyes that cannot see what use is this message?
What did God say to Elijah after explaing their dull ears?
"Until the cities lie ruined and without inhabitant, until the houses are left deserted and the fields ruined and ravaged, until the LORD has sent everyone far away and the land is utterly forsaken. And though a tenth remains in the land, it will again be laid waste. But as the terebinth and oak leave stumps when they are cut down, so the holy seed will be the stump in the land.
There is no twisting of the Shema. I do see that you resort to using polluted translations to justify your heresies.
Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord.
Notice the colon after the word Israel here. A colon in the English writing is always used to introduce a list. Echad is the Hebrew word used to denote a unity in purpose. The Godhead is a unified one. There is only one church. How many persons are in the one church?
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one
1st John 5:20
So can three people be one person? No, this defies logic. Three people can however, be united as one in purpose and position. There is one God, and that one God consists of three separate and individual persons.
: RobWLarson Sun Nov 06, 2011 - 18:06:09
There is no twisting of the Shema. I do see that you resort to using polluted translations to justify your heresies.
Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord.
Notice the colon after the word Israel here. A colon in the English writing is always used to introduce a list. Echad is the Hebrew word used to denote a unity in purpose. The Godhead is a unified one. There is only one church. How many persons are in the one church?
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one
1st John 5:20
So can three people be one person? No, this defies logic. Three people can however, be united as one in purpose and position. There is one God, and that one God consists of three separate and individual persons.
You are doing exactly as is expected from a TB.
You see Biblical Unitarians can read this verse (Deut 6:4) and accept what it is saying, without any qualification whatsoever.
That is, Yahweh is one in being, person, and authority in the Heavens.
Judaism understands this perfectly without qualification; however Trinitarians cannot accept the Shema without qualification, or adding a rider.
This folly is demonstrated in your post and clear for all to see.
Rather than excepting the Shema as the Jews have done for thousands of years that Yahweh is in fact one; Christians have adopted Greek mythology to introduce Yahweh as three.
But this again depends on the Trinitarian because some purport the Trinity is three and Yahweh is one, this appears to be the most convenient approach; one can distance themselves from the creeds definition, but not so far removed that one becomes a Unitarian.
So you will see a TB claim Unitarian Oneness with the qualification of Polytheism.
But most like you are not able to articulate the trinity due to its many complexities.
Insight
Insight I have read many of your posts on you. Do you not deny the very deity of Jesus himself? Explain to me how in the OT God said "let us make man in our own image." Do you mean to tell me that God was talking to the angels? Are we made in the image of angels then? And what makes you think that the Jews do not understand and believe in the Trinity? I would offer this to you. Something to chew on here. The OT writers did indeed believe openly in the Trinity doctrine, and the Unitarian theology did not enter into Jewish thought until the inter-testamental time period. Why in the Psalms does David say "The Lord said unto my Lord sit thou at my right hand until I make thine enemies your footstool"? Was David confused? Did he think God was had a habit of just talking to himself? no David said this because he understood the separate persons of the Godhead.
You want to add the NT in with this sir? Ok the NT clearly shows the Trinity in all of his glory and majesty. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." So who is the Word? According to your heretical doctrine you would deny that this Word could possibly be Jesus Christ. But who was it that came in the flesh? It was God. "and without controversy great is the mystery of godliness, God was manifest in the flesh..." Who was manifest in the flesh sir? It was GOD. And the Bible tells us that this teaching is without controversy.
: RobWLarson Sun Nov 06, 2011 - 20:00:03
Insight I have read many of your posts on you.
A mixed bag one would think?
Do you not deny the very deity of Jesus himself?
Of course!
Explain to me how in the OT God said "let us make man in our own image." Do you mean to tell me that God was talking to the angels? Are we made in the image of angels then?
Well done.
It can take many years to understand this truth – its odd, is it not, that in every occurrence of an angel appearing, they are always male and always human in appearance. ::headscratch::
Must be a coincidence – of course you would understand Eve was made in Adam's image! There is an important lesson hidden there Rob.
And what makes you think that the Jews do not understand and believe in the Trinity?
Well, they entered a covenant with Yahweh at Sinai, and not a three headed beast.
I would offer this to you. Something to chew on here. The OT writers did indeed believe openly in the Trinity doctrine, and the Unitarian theology did not enter into Jewish thought until the inter-testamental time period. Why in the Psalms does David say "The Lord said unto my Lord sit thou at my right hand until I make thine enemies your footstool"? Was David confused? Did he think God was had a habit of just talking to himself? no David said this because he understood the separate persons of the Godhead.
I take you are speaking to Psalm 110:1?
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. "Yahweh said unto my Adon."
Beautiful expression pointing forward to the other OT propehcies of the virgin birth. You may like to see Psa 22:9,10; 69:8; 89:26,27; 132:11; Gen 3:15; Pro 30:19; Isa 7:14; Jer 31:22; Mic 5:2 and many more upon request!
You may like to see Psalm 109:31
For he shall stand at the right hand of the poor, to save him from those that condemn his soul.David could foresee a dual occupancy of God's heavenly throne.
If you go over to Rev 3:21 Jesus who was the fufillment of Psalm 110:1; 109:31
To the one (Rob) who is victorious, I (Jesus) will give the right to sit with me (Jesus) on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne. Actually if you go through these passages you will see the continual emphasis of Christ being a firstfruit from Yahweh of many sons to come.
Here is another such example
For the Lamb (Jesus) at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; 'he will lead them to springs of living water.' And God (Yahweh) will wipe away every tear from their eyes.And again...
Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the LambCan you see the dual occupancy of the throne?
Yahweh in His throne and Jesus exalted from flesh and blood to sit at the right hand side of the Father on high.
Therefore David, Like Yahweh could foresee a coming Son who would ascend David's throne; one established forever.
Of course, you know Jesus will hand this throne back to His Father once Yahweh has put all things under his feet.
But thats off the subject at hand
Insight
: RobWLarson Thu Nov 03, 2011 - 01:11:48
As a Christian I must say blessed be the name of the Holy Trinity, Holy father, Holy Son, and the Holy Ghost. I have recently just got done reading a book called "The Jewish Trinity" by a Messianic Jew.
He's confussed - but dont worry it will all be sorted with the Master returns. His heart will be turned toward the fathers.
Though I don't necessarily believe everything he writes in that book,
So its part truth and part lies? (http://www.katzy.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/lies.gif)
No what did Jesus say?
but if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!Good question my Lord and Master!
he makes a pretty good argument in support of the OT Jewish writers all openly believing in the three persons of the Godhead, as Christians now believe.
As many apostate Christians believe.
That is the only way that the Bible even makes any sense at all. And though Constantine was not a Christian
Brave of you to admit your forefather was a infidel! Very brave indeed.
the bishops and elders at the Council of Nicea were indeed Christians who had just come out of a very great and powerful persecution.
Sorry, these Christians are the one who persecuted the true Christians - you have your wires crossed.
Many of them still bore the scares of their sufferings for Christ, I would not begin to question their loyalty to Jesus Christ and the scriptures.
I suggest you look well beyond the Constantines Christianity to find the true believers, you will need to look hard, they were few in number.
But Yahweh has always kept a remnant Rom 11:5
Insight
: FireSword Tue Oct 11, 2011 - 16:27:17
They both sit on thrones. Father has his throne
Jesus spoke of his throne, his throne sits on the right hand of the Father.
The disciples wanted to sit with Jesus at his throne, but Jesus said that they asked a tough request.
Define throne Biblically. Yeah, it's a tough request.
Mr. Insight sir. I will now deal with your biggest heresy yet. I must warn you however, that I will be using the Authorized Version of the English Bible to prove my claim that Jesus is indeed God in the flesh and nothing less. Now let us not forget sir, that scripture is not left up for our own private interpretation. It says what it says. And God is not the author of confusion. Okay then lets get going shall we.
I shall start by proving the Godhood of Jesus.
"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." 1st Timothy 3:15.
You spoke of things that need to be revealed. Well the great mystery is here revealed. Who was manifest in the flesh? Simple question I should think. And let's not forget there is no debating the issue. Paul said without controversy...So again I ask who was manifest in the flesh?
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.... He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not." John 1:1, 10-11
Again who is the Word in this passage? So he was in the beginning, he was with God, and what else was he? He came into the world, and according to this passage who made the world?
"And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death." Revelation 1:7-8
So again when did God die? We know that God was the only one who was in the beginning. "In the beginning God(Elohim, this is a plural)created the heaven and the earth." Genesis 1:1.
So who is Jesus? If he is not God then these scriptures lie. If these scriptures lie then you make God a liar. Is god a liar mr. Insight?
: RobWLarson Mon Nov 07, 2011 - 15:36:06
Mr. Insight sir. I will now deal with your biggest heresy yet. I must warn you however, that I will be using the Authorized Version of the English Bible to prove my claim that Jesus is indeed God in the flesh and nothing less. Now let us not forget sir, that scripture is not left up for our own private interpretation. It says what it says. And God is not the author of confusion. Okay then lets get going shall we.
Sounds important.
I shall start by proving the Godhood of Jesus.
"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." 1st Timothy 3:15.
Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He* was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory"vindicated by the spirit
How clever of you to use heretical perversions of scripture(NIV NET and whatever other demonic translation you like to use) to support your claims. You cleverly avoid simple questions to get around the scriptures. Of course Jesus was manifest in the flesh. He was a man. How is that a great mystery? I suppose if I were to convert to Islam I might give up the Trinitarian belief.
And what in the name of common sense is a TB? Sir I am not a TB or and Catholic or and protestant or any of that. I am simply a Christian, born of the Spirit of God.
Again so long as you refuse to use the Bible, and insist on using perverted texts I cannot have a discussion with you. Again I will ask you according to the Bible(Not the NIV or any other RV I mean the Word of God, the Holy Bible, the Authorized version)who was manifest in the flesh? And if not God then why is it a great mystery?
: RobWLarson Mon Nov 07, 2011 - 23:55:56
How clever of you to use heretical perversions of scripture(NIV NET and whatever other demonic translation you like to use) to support your claims.
Interesting insight Rob.
You cleverly avoid simple questions to get around the scriptures.
No I have exposed your error and now you are clearly frustrated.
Of course Jesus was manifest in the flesh. He was a man. How is that a great mystery? I suppose if I were to convert to Islam I might give up the Trinitarian belief.
Yes many frustrated Christians say such things.
And what in the name of common sense is a TB?
1. Trinitarian Believer
2. Tuberculosis
They are both illnesses
Sir I am not a TB or and Catholic or and protestant or any of that. I am simply a Christian, born of the Spirit of God.
Again so long as you refuse to use the Bible, and insist on using perverted texts I cannot have a discussion with you. Again I will ask you according to the Bible(Not the NIV or any other RV I mean the Word of God, the Holy Bible, the Authorized version)who was manifest in the flesh? And if not God then why is it a great mystery?
Can you show me in your Bible where it states the AV is the only inspired Word of God - the perfect and pure version of God's Word.
Chapter, Book and verse.
Insight
p.s by the way I use the AV every day for study but as you would know the AV has some textual errors which other versions have corrected, although they too themselves have textual errors.
Maybe we could use the Codex Sinaiticus?
Can you speak Greek?
Okay sir so going back to what the Bible actually says.
First of all I will accept being called a Trinitarian Believer. Sense I do believe in the Bible and I am a Christian believing in the Trinity would therefore come with the territory.
Can you show me in your Bible where it states the AV is the only inspired Word of God - the perfect and pure version of God's Word.
Chapter, Book and verse.
this is perhaps one of the dumbest things I have ever heard someone say. The AV is the only English Bible still used today that was translated out of the Textus Receptus.
by the way I use the AV every day for study but as you would know the AV has some textual errors which other versions have corrected, although they too themselves have textual errors.
Maybe we could use the Codex Sinaiticus?
The Codex Sinaiticus? Even if I could read Greek why would I waste my time reading some perverted manuscript that was found in a trash can in a monastery? The only reason why you say the AV has errors in it, is because you believe that God was a liar when he said that he would preserve his Word. But the discussion of the AV is a thread I have started in this debate forum. So we can discuss that over there.
So again you have not answered a single one of my questions.
: RobWLarson Wed Nov 09, 2011 - 01:46:50
Okay sir so going back to what the Bible actually says.
First of all I will accept being called a Trinitarian Believer. Sense I do believe in the Bible and I am a Christian believing in the Trinity would therefore come with the territory.
By definition you do not believe in the Bible. To be accurate you believe in Creeds that purport to be based on the Bible. You would not know the Doctrine of the Trinity if it were not for men like Plato and Constantine.
this is perhaps one of the dumbest things I have ever heard someone say. The AV is the only English Bible still used today that was translated out of the Textus Receptus.
You didn't answer my question.
But here stated again for your consideration.
Are you able to provide a verse in the Bible that states the AV – is the preferred translation?
The Codex Sinaiticus? Even if I could read Greek why would I waste my time reading some perverted manuscript that was found in a trash can in a monastery? The only reason why you say the AV has errors in it, is because you believe that God was a liar when he said that he would preserve his Word.
Ouch, it appears we struck a chord with Rob. My what a sharp tongue you have...spoken like a true purest....a jot and tittle man I see. ::shrug::
So again you have not answered a single one of my questions.
Yes I know how that feels.
Sir I believe in the Trinity based on the Bible. I never even heard of the Nicean Creed until I came to seminary school and they were teaching church history. I never really read it all of the way through. I did not start believing in the Trinity because of a doctrinal statement. I believed in it when I first started reading the Bible and piecing things together. Which was many years before I ever became a Christian.
So yes I am a very blunt and straight froward man. So my tongue my be sharp. But that is also because I am not thin skinned. I love to discuss these issues and I don't get offended. But I do speak bluntly.
And the AV does not say the AV is the only English inspired word of God. So you see how I answered that question. Oh and before you ask me about the Shema. It says the Lord our God is one(echad not ychad)Lord. That means that there is one God. I'm glad we cleared that up. All Christians believe in one God. He is simply three persons.
: RobWLarson Thu Nov 10, 2011 - 00:57:05
Sir I believe in the Trinity based on the Bible.
NO you believe in a creed which was meant to be based on the Bible.
I never even heard of the Nicean Creed until I came to seminary school and they were teaching church history.
So you are without excuse now that you know the origin of your beliefs.
I never really read it all of the way through. I did not start believing in the Trinity because of a doctrinal statement. I believed in it when I first started reading the Bible and piecing things together. Which was many years before I ever became a Christian.
Yes, from a child you have been subtly taught the Trinity – all good Catholics would admit to this.
So yes I am a very blunt and straight froward man. So my tongue my be sharp. But that is also because I am not thin skinned. I love to discuss these issues and I don't get offended. But I do speak bluntly.
None harsher than the like of John the Baptist and Elijah!
It's a shame you don't share their understanding and teaching.
And the AV does not say the AV is the only English inspired word of God. So you see how I answered that question. Oh and before you ask me about the Shema. It says the Lord our God is one(echad not ychad)Lord.
That means that there is one God. I'm glad we cleared that up. All Christians believe in one God. He is simply three persons.
Yes unlike John the Baptist and Elijah they would not need to qualify the Shema. Sorry, I should place Jesus among his brethren who also quoted and understood the Shema.
In regards to echad http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/binity_shema1.html
Enjoy the read.
Insight
Insight---
Isn't it possible that the opposite of what you keep saying is true? YOU are the one who has been TAUGHT
that the Trinity is not Biblical? Let me give an example. The Jehovah's Witnesses have only been around since
1881. Yet everyone in their "church" is TAUGHT that the Trinity is a monstrosity. They believe that Christians
have been taught a false doctrine for hundreds of years---yet the JW's have only been around a little over a hundred
years themselves!
Because they cannot comprehend the doctrine of the Trinity with natural understanding, they therefore state it
is fiction. And it all goes back to one Charles Taze Russell, who decided it was so. One false teacher lead to literally
thousands of "witnesses" going door to door proclaiming Jesus is not God. And they are the ones who have been taught this false doctrine, not the Christians they are trying to persuade otherwise. One can go back to one Arius in 250 AD to see the origins of the theology you propose is the true one.
He was a heretic, just as Charles Taze Russell was a heretic, and just as the doctrine you are teaching is heresy also. There is nothing new about it--there have always been a few heretics who hold to what Arius taught those many years ago---it is just as much a doctrine that has been "passed down" through the ages as the doctrine of the Trinity has. The difference is the Doctrine of the Trinity is Biblical and held by a huge majority of the church, as is the Divinity of Christ, while the Arian heresy with it's small following is unbiblical and rejected by almost every Biblical Scholar. Any true scholar knows exactly what John 1:1 teaches---only cults try to manipulate that verse to their own ends and to uphold their false teachings.
I just wanted to trow this in there Mr. Insight sir. I have never entered into a catholic service my entire life. So I am not a good catholic, because I am not a catholic. And the reason why the majority of Christian organizations believe in the Trinity is because the Bible states it as clear as day. There is absolutely no denying it.
No.
And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
The Mother has many daughters.
Insight
Oh so you are saying that the Christian church is the harlot? Interesting. The last time I heard speak that way they were possessed of a devil. In fact the only person I have ever met who was possessed. She said the church is apostate and going to hell. The daughter of the great whore of Revelation. Hmm just an insight.
Rob,
You would be one naive Christian to believe the many Christian religions of this age are in fact based on the true Gospel.
One only needs to read the epistle to the Galatians to find that apostate teachings where entering the body. Imagine 2000 years of corruption, power and greed, then centre your mind on the wealthiest religious organisation in the world.
And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
Oh if you could see the harlot as God and Christ see her you would tremble before them.
Insight
You have a point. There are many cults who deny the deity of Christ and forsake the teaching of the Trinity. And there is only one church sir. That is the Christian church. We are not many bodies, but rather one. The name on the church building makes no difference, so long as the preaching is the gospel. It is the liars and the frauds who say "only my church can get you to heaven." "Only us very few will make it." In truth there are churches out there who have never heard of my church organization, and yet they teach and preach the exact same thing. It is the ones who preach a foreign doctrine that deny the Trinity, the Holy Ghost baptism, the born again experience, the life of holiness, the fullness of the Godhead that dwells in Christ bodily. These things are denied by the heretics. And there are many who deny them.
::smile:: You know, I have gone in search of a forum through which I may correspond in the word of our heavenly Father.
I have been a member of another forum for many years through which I have argued these same issues of doctrine.
After listening to the posts within this thread and this forum, it is apparent unto me that truly there is no difference and indeed the tares are mixed with the wheat.
The only problem it seems is that no person [under the banner of Christian] can tell the difference, only our Father which in heaven and He knows.
We argue and we condemn, but who are we to say, for as I read the words spoken in this thread, all I can detect is animosity and pride which are all the things that caused Satan to fall and Gods children to become blind.
Have we not learned anything?
Must we continually resort to the very weaknesses of heart and mind that caused all this ciaos to begin with?
Are we not brethren in the bosom of our blessed savior Christ?
Where in is the love and patients that He portrayed for His own upon the cross?
Truth of scripture must be upheld, but not at the expense of destroying your brother.
JTF
: RobWLarson Sun Nov 13, 2011 - 16:46:48
You have a point.
Not I but Yahweh through His beloved Son passed it through angel to John at Patmos which found its way to me. ::smile::
There are many cults who deny the deity of Christ and forsake the teaching of the Trinity.
The beast has long marginalised the true Christians.
And there is only one church sir.
Sorry, one ecclesia or congregation, you have free will to place your confidence in bricks and mortar, or a banner of the RCC and her many daughters who have been influenced by her doctrines.
I can only warn.
That is the Christian church. We are not many bodies, but rather one. The name on the church building makes no difference, so long as the preaching is the gospel.
This is perversion and its spirit is contrary to true Gospel as preached by the Apostles and Jesus Christ.
It is the liars and the frauds who say "only my church can get you to heaven."
Now this is true for many meek and humble Bible students all over the world know the True Jesus Christ and I for one have spoken to them in numerous forums.
"Only us very few will make it." In truth there are churches out there who have never heard of my church organization, and yet they teach and preach the exact same thing.
If the Trinity it at its roots it corrupt and has Greek metaphysics as its foundation and not truth.
It is the ones who preach a foreign doctrine that deny the Trinity, the Holy Ghost baptism, the born again experience, the life of holiness, the fullness of the Godhead that dwells in Christ bodily. These things are denied by the heretics. And there are many who deny them.
The Apostle Paul was so accused of being part of a cult. The Judaizers likewise branded people as you have done above, once again confirming their spirit and the extent people will go to uphold the doctrines of men and their many creeds.
Of course the same destruction which came upon those ignorant and stubborn Jews in AD70 will befall the Christian system in like manner. Although this destruction will be unlike anything the earth has witnessed from the days of Noah.
To all TB's – do not blindly accept the creed without studying to show yourself approved – thus far few including Rob can demonstrate they divide the Word correctly or show the measure of wisdom to do so in love.
God bless your searching and don't forget to knock in truth and sincerity putting away all bias and misconception – only then will you find the true Gospel that saves.
Insight
Sorry, one ecclesia or congregation, you have free will to place your confidence in bricks and mortar, or a banner of the RCC and her many daughters who have been influenced by her doctrines.
The church is not a building of sticks and bricks sir. I am speaking of the body of Christ.
Now this is true for many meek and humble Bible students all over the world know the True Jesus Christ and I for one have spoken to them in numerous forums.
I know many who worship the true and living God. As Thomas did when he fell at the feet of Jesus and proclaimed "my Lord and my God!" So I fall at the feet of Jesus and proclaim "My Lord and my God!"
If the Trinity it at its roots it corrupt and has Greek metaphysics as its foundation and not truth.
Sounds like the same lame excuse that the apostate oneness churches use(they call themselves apostolic Pentecostals, but we disfellowshiped them when they turned from the truth).
do not blindly accept the creed without studying to show yourself approved – thus far few including Rob can demonstrate they divide the Word correctly or show the measure of wisdom to do so in love.
And here is another classic excuse for people who deny the scriptures and make up their own doctrines to explain away clear and unavoidable scriptures. Such as the undeniable fact that Jesus Christ is God the Son. And the Trinity is a clear and undeniable fact of scripture. So you can go ahead and study to shew thyself approved, but when you look for ways to excuse false and rejected doctrines, then you wrest the scripture to your own destruction.
But you are set in your errant ways. It seems there is no showing you the scripture, for you will only wrest it even more, until it says what you want it to say. This is a sad state to be in my friend. You are more than welcome to come back to the proper gospel of Jesus Christ, God in the flesh, crucified for our transgressions, that the blood of the most holy God might wash you clean of all sin. This is the gospel message. To deny it is to deny the power of God to save you.
: RobWLarson Sun Nov 13, 2011 - 19:50:31
The church is not a building of sticks and bricks sir. I am speaking of the body of Christ.
It is commonly understood the word Church is a corruption of the original Greek. I will not be dogmatic on this other to say "church
Sir church is the English term for the Greek word. It means the same thing. The called out ones. That is really a pointless argument to try and prove and pointless misunderstanding. The church is not a building. Though a building may indeed be set aside for purpose of saints coming to gather for worship.
Now doubt it will be said also of the saints that we are Christ, not actual Christ but a beautiful manifestation of the original.
Moses, Angels and many others have been called God.
But you already knew that.
No angel accepts praise from a man, excepting that Angel is God himself. In the case of Abraham he saw God in the flesh appearing to him as a man. He spoke with God. And this is clearing God the Son, or the Word, as Jesus himself said no man hath seen the Father at any time.
We know by reading Hebrews in connection with the books of Moses that it is God the Holy Spirit who led the children in the wilderness, not the Father. Jesus told the disciples that he was going away. He told them he would send them another Comforter. That this Comforter would come from the Father and that he is the Spirit of truth. This Spirit of truth is clearly not the Father because the father sends him, as he also sent Jesus, and he is another Comforter, so he is not Jesus. So then who is the Holy Spirit? Ref, John 17
The speaking in tongues is not an error my friend. Jesus prophesied of it himself. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name they shall cast out devils; They shall
speak with new tongues; And they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. Mark 16:17-18
Speaking in tongues seems to be another doctrine your throw out of the Bible because you do not understand it. The Bible is so full of Trinitarian language you would have to be blind not to see it.
: RobWLarson Sun Nov 13, 2011 - 23:34:08
Sir church is the English term for the Greek word. It means the same thing. The called out ones. That is really a pointless argument to try and prove and pointless misunderstanding. The church is not a building. Though a building may indeed be set aside for purpose of saints coming to gather for worship.
I don't disagree your above thoughts my comments were based on the original Greek conveying a deeper appreciation of the word ecclesia. Today Church carries connotations which even infidels equate to going to steeple churches of grandeur when actually it signifies a gathering of believers who have all things in common, often in homes.
Anyway – like I said, I am not dogmatic on the term Church, it sad what it's become in the mind of many deceived and mislead believers in the world.
No angel accepts praise from a man, excepting that Angel is God himself. In the case of Abraham he saw God in the flesh appearing to him as a man. He spoke with God. And this is clearing God the Son, or the Word, as Jesus himself said no man hath seen the Father at any time.
You didn't provide Scriptures because you don't really believe this do you!
We know by reading Hebrews in connection with the books of Moses that it is God the Holy Spirit who led the children in the wilderness, not the Father.
Again no Scriptures, more of the same wresting and forcing of error into the record, and even if I did proved to you who actually led the Hebrew people in the wilderness, you would not listen.
Jesus told the disciples that he was going away. He told them he would send them another Comforter. That this Comforter would come from the Father and that he is the Spirit of truth. This Spirit of truth is clearly not the Father because the father sends him, as he also sent Jesus, and he is another Comforter, so he is not Jesus. So then who is the Holy Spirit? Ref, John 17
I see your confusion.
The speaking in tongues is not an error my friend. Jesus prophesied of it himself. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name they shall cast out devils; They shall speak with new tongues; And they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. Mark 16:17-18
It is all downhill from here.
Speaking in tongues seems to be another doctrine your throw out of the Bible because you do not understand it. The Bible is so full of Trinitarian language you would have to be blind not to see it.
Sounds like a challenge.
Show me the following out of the Bible.
• God in Trinity
• Trinity in Unity
• The Father uncreate
• The Son uncreate
• Holy Ghost uncreate
• Son incomprehensible,
• Holy Ghost incomprehensible
• Son eternal,
• Holy Ghost eternal
• The Son Almighty
• Holy Ghost Almighty
• The Son is God,
• Holy Ghost is God
This shall be interesting...
Insight
: Insight Mon Nov 14, 2011 - 04:18:58
Show me the following out of the Bible:
• God in Trinity
"The Word of the Lord came to..." (http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=%22word+of+the+lord+came%22&t=KJV) occurs 92 times as an exact phrase. Here, we may understand 'Lord' to be the Father, the Word to be the son, and the fact that the Word "came to" anybody at all to be the Spirit.
: Insight Mon Nov 14, 2011 - 04:18:58• Trinity in Unity
"I and my Father are one" makes the Father and Son one and the same. "God is Spirit" would seem to make the Father and Spirit one and the same. Apply the mathematical principle of substitution to prove the third part.
: Insight Mon Nov 14, 2011 - 04:18:58• The Father uncreated
• The Son uncreated
• Holy Ghost uncreate
That the Father was not created is apparent from the fact that He was the one doing the creating. "And the Spirit of God hovered over the surface of the waters" in Genesis 1:2 makes the Spirit of God the means by which God gave form to the unformed, making It also pre-existent and thus not created. Finally, the Son is "slain from the foundation of the world." He must also exist from the foundation of the world, for this to be true (though I think not in the form most people would think).
: Insight Mon Nov 14, 2011 - 04:18:58• Son incomprehensible
• Holy Ghost incomprehensible
Those aren't in the Bible. In fact, rather the opposite... God the Father is "invisible" meaning incomprehensible, but "The Word made flesh" is "the icon of the invisible God" meaning expressly that He IS comprehensible. Likewise, the Spirit is the means by which God communicates and makes Himself known, if not seen.
: Insight Mon Nov 14, 2011 - 04:18:58• Son eternal
Hbr 1:8 KJV - But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.
: Insight Mon Nov 14, 2011 - 04:18:58• The Son Almighty
"All authority in heaven and earth has been given me" springs to mind, but until you apprehend what it means for Christ to be 'The Word' you may not perceive that to be the same thing as omnipotence.
: Insight Mon Nov 14, 2011 - 04:18:58• Holy Ghost eternal
• Holy Ghost Almighty
Asking to prove this seperately from the Father, makes the faulty assumption that the Spirit is somehow other than the Father. You have asked a question that doesn't make any sense to me. It is as if you had asked me to prove that my arm is actually me. My arm is not a separate thing from me... it is part of me.
: Insight Mon Nov 14, 2011 - 04:18:58• The Son is God
"The Word was God" in John 1:1. Hebrews 1:8 works here too.
: Insight Mon Nov 14, 2011 - 04:18:58• Holy Ghost is God
"God is Spirit, and those who worship Him..."
Jarrod
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Mon Nov 14, 2011 - 17:59:16
• God in Trinity "The Word of the Lord came to..." (http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=%22word+of+the+lord+came%22&t=KJV) occurs 92 times as an exact phrase. Here, we may understand 'Lord' to be the Father, the Word to be the son, and the fact that the Word "came to" anybody at all to be the Spirit.
Many ask where is "God in Trinity
You asked me to show it to you out of the Bible, so I did. It is true that these exact phrases do not occur there. I usually assume that people here are willing to reason out of the Bible (otherwise why are they talking about it online?) If you aren't, well... that doesn't leave much to discuss, does it?
I can appreciate that you have recognized that the "3 persons" formulation of the Trinity misses the mark somewhat. I think you go too far in dismissing the entire concept of Trinity, though, as well as in throwing out all creeds and early teachings. You have crossed the line from being a Reformer, to being a Revolutionary.
Perhaps you, like most of Christendom, have forgotten that the root word of trinity is unity. Or perhaps nobody has ever showed you what the early church actually did believe. Speaking for myself, I am fully confident in what I do understand of this. It makes sense to me on a rational level - it isn't just a "take it for faith" thing or a "mystery" to me.
Without going into too much detail...
There are 2 metaphors in the teaching of the church
1) Head, Word, Spirit
2) Father and Son
The first describes the Godhead and the expression of the Godhead in His interactions with mankind, and the second describes particularly the relationship between God and Jesus.
Nonetheless, they have been combined, so we have the mixed metaphor "Father, Son, and Spirit" which has caused no small amount of confusion.
If one is willing to tackle each metaphor separately, then the whole thing makes a lot more sense.
Jarrod
Jarrod is White
White is Jarrod
The Holy Spirit and Father are one; one are The Father and Holy Spirit. Makes sense to me.
I implore you to understand that your salvation is at risk.
A word of advice, friend: shut your gob. You have absolutely no way of knowing the final destination of Wycliffes_Shillelagh's soul---or anyone else's, for that matter. That is knowledge that belongs only to the Lord. Your claiming to know wether a fellow Christian is going to Heaven or Hell is astoundingly arrogant, and unbefitting of any follower of Christ.
: Swiss_Guard Tue Nov 15, 2011 - 19:25:36
Jarrod is White
White is Jarrod
The Holy Spirit and Father are one; one are The Father and Holy Spirit. Makes sense to me.
Why does everyone suddenly think I'm white?
I mean... I am white on the outside. But my heart.... my heart is as black as anybody here! Wait... that didn't come out quite like I'd planned...
::intherain::
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Tue Nov 15, 2011 - 12:33:29
You asked me to show it to you out of the Bible, so I did. It is true that these exact phrases do not occur there. I usually assume that people here are willing to reason out of the Bible (otherwise why are they talking about it online?) If you aren't, well... that doesn't leave much to discuss, does it?
Again your admission once again proves the uninspired nature of these doctrines. In terms of arguing these definitions out of the Bible well, as we have found it is most difficult. I am sure even the Apostle Paul would struggle to refute them because they have no Bible Basis.
Over the years I have seen many "statements of faith
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Wed Nov 16, 2011 - 20:39:18
The question is whether you understand the creeds well enough to even begin to compare them with Scripture. Everything so far points to a resounding "no."
What would you like to know about the creeds, and their development?
The Father is God in His transcendence. Here we are talking about an intelligence and pure thought. What He has begotten is the Word - which is to say, the same thoughts, only expressed towards us.
And that Word, when it became flesh, that is referred to as the Son. He is "the icon of the invisible God." That is, the intelligence of the Godhead neatly packaged as a human being, so that seeing and hearing, we might understand and believe God.
I agree with the above. Of course none of this translates to his pre-existence.
As for the rest of your post - you seem determined to say the same thing over and over again in as many different ways as you possibly can. ::beatingdeadhorse::
One can only hope that in place of beating a dead horse one might actually begin to ask thoughtful and well-reasoned questions of God in the hope of receiving divine answers rather than drawing to philosophies of men.
Is this too much to ask?
::shrug::
: Insight Wed Nov 16, 2011 - 21:01:09
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Wed Nov 16, 2011 - 20:39:18
The question is whether you understand the creeds well enough to even begin to compare them with Scripture. Everything so far points to a resounding "no."
What would you like to know about the creeds, and their development?
You want a pop quiz? Why not...
Define:Ousia
Hypostasis
Enthymesis
Is the meaning of these words significantly different in the Biblical creeds than it is Platonism? in Gnosticism?
Comment on the correspondence between these words and the doctrine of the Trinity.
Why was there a controversy over the usage of 'omoousias vs. 'omoiousias in the Nicene creed?
Given the definition(s) of Ousia in Classical Greek literature, is it accurate to define 'omoousia as "being of the same substance?" Why or why not?
These aren't particularly easy questions, but if you can answer them, then you should be able to understand the creeds as the authors intended them.
The Father is God in His transcendence. Here we are talking about an intelligence and pure thought. What He has begotten is the Word - which is to say, the same thoughts, only expressed towards us.
And that Word, when it became flesh, that is referred to as the Son. He is "the icon of the invisible God." That is, the intelligence of the Godhead neatly packaged as a human being, so that seeing and hearing, we might understand and believe God.
I agree with the above. Of course none of this translates to his pre-existence.
The pre-existence of the Word is explicit in John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word." Any other argument is just one of chronology - the question being "when was the Word begotten?" I do not feel that question is explicitly answered in Scriptures. Perhaps you feel otherwise. Feel free to comment.
As for the rest of your post - you seem determined to say the same thing over and over again in as many different ways as you possibly can. ::beatingdeadhorse::
One can only hope that in place of beating a dead horse one might actually begin to ask thoughtful and well-reasoned questions of God in the hope of receiving divine answers rather than drawing to philosophies of men.
Is this too much to ask?
::shrug::
Usually before one can receive the answers, one must figure out what the questions are.
Jarrod
Ousia and Hypostasis
While I entertain you with word games, maybe you could provide the following:
• Scriptural proof that Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God
• Scriptural proof that God consists of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit; three persons in one being (i.e. "three hypostases (or divinities) in one ousia", for those Trinitarians who cling to the traditional formula)
• Scriptural proof of the co-eternity, co-equality and consubstantiality of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit
Good luck!
Enthymesis is an interesting Word, one I am not familiar with. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
Actually I was surprised how little it's used in religious content. Some appear to claim its Latin, and then German but borrowed from the Greek's – Ah everything is borrowed from the Greeks even the worst parts of Christianity (sorry couldn't resist) . Maybe you might be able to enlighten me to its origin? Such meanings vary from "consideration, esteem
Wonder how much the eunuch understood of the Trinity?
Seems the treasure of queen Candace needed "some man" to guide him in his understanding of
Isaiah 53.
Interesting that it was "the Spirit that said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to the chariot" (Acts 8:29).
Philip "preached Jesus" to this chariot rider" (Acts 8:35).
Did the eunuch give two hoots about understanding the Trinity?
No! the only thing he got from Philip's preaching (that we are told) was "See, here is water;
what hinders me from being baptized?"
Hypothetically, Philip had to give this candidate for baptism a quiz.
Well now eunuch, do you understand the Trinity?
Do you believe Jesus is God?
"I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
"Good enough," said Philip, let's get out of this chariot and go "down into the water."
The text says that "he (Philip) baptized him and the eunuch saw him no more."
For sure, this Ethiopian had been given the same "gift of the Spirit" as those
"promised" at Pentecost. (Acts 2:39).
Wouldn't you know it! "the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip and carted him off to Azothus,
doing what he did best; "preaching Jesus" in all the cities until he came to Caesarea."
Wonder if he ran out of sermons? Why he never even had a copy of the New Testament.
Question: Which of the Three (Trinity) directed Philip to instruct the eunuch to be baptized?
Or, do you believe Philip made this connection up?
Philip, having hands laid on him by the apostles (Acts 6:3,8) would be "full of faith and power"
And, was the eunuch "baptized in the name of Jesus," (Acts 2:38), or was the eunuch baptized
in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit as commanded by Jesus in Matthew 28:19?
Does it make a difference?
Who is this Spirit?
The same Spirit that joined Jesus in His baptism by John in the Jordan" (Luke 4:1).
The same Spirit that led Jesus into the wilderness for the critical combat with the devil?
The Spirit that directed Peter to go to Caesarea and "tell you (Cornelius) words whereby you and all
your house shall be saved" (Acts 11: 12-14).
In Luke 10:21 we find "Jesus and the Spirit rejoicing."
Finally, in verse 22 of Luke 10 we read 'All things have been delivered unto me of my Father."
Here, in this passage Jesus speaks of Himself as the Son of God and declares His absolute
authority over all things. He is in unique relationship with God, and in His Person He is the means
of approach to God.
So, is our understanding of the Trinity correct?
: Insight Wed Nov 16, 2011 - 23:57:50
While I entertain you with word games, maybe you could provide the following:
• Scriptural proof that Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God
At the risk of repeating myself...
"I and my Father are One" proves the first, and the second is a non-sequitor. (My arm is part of me, and God's Spirit is a part of God)
• Scriptural proof that God consists of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit; three persons in one being (i.e. "three hypostases (or divinities) in one ousia", for those Trinitarians who cling to the traditional formula)
Hypostasis doesn't mean person (or even personae), and Ousia doesn't mean Being, so this formulation is more of a mistranslation than anything else.
Proving that the Father is God seems easy, since He's regularly called "Father God" in Scripture.
Proving that the Spirit of God is God also seems rather simple. Why else would He be called 'the Spirit of God,' if He were not God?
Proving that the Son is God is less straightforward, but not that difficult, in light of statements such as "before Abraham was, I AM." The NT also quotes the OT ascribing the names "wonderful counselor, mighty God, and even everlasting Father" directly to Jesus.
Ousia translates as essence, form, shape, or image.
In Platonism it denotes a Platonic form. The highest form in Platonism is the Form of the Good, and all other Forms derive from it. All the forms then are heavenly, an belong to the realm of the intellect.
Hypostases ("that which stands beneath") are things here in the real world which typify the celestial forms. If I have an apple, for instance, it may be a hypostasis of several forms ("red" "delicious" "nutritious" "good").
Now, the OT teaches that God Himself is "most high" and that He cannot be fully comprehended ("invisible God"). That is, He is a transcendant intelligence, and not a corporeal being. Christianity, being born into a culture where Greek language was the medium of communication, used the word Ousia to express the same.
Throughout the OT, the Bible puts forward that we can know God through His attributes, which if we put it into the Greek nomenclature, would be
Enthymeses (expressed attributes, or emanations). That is, we may not understand everything of the mind of God, but we can know His mercy. Or His longsuffering. Or His judgment. Or His truthfulness. Hence the many names of God throughout the book. He is Jehova Rapha, Jehovah Jaira, Jehova Sabaoth, Jehovah _____.
Moreover, the Bible uses the word Pleroma (fulness) to talk about ALL of God's attributes (or emanations, if you will), jointly.
The gnostics, blending Platonism and other Greek philosophy with Judaism and Christianity however they saw fit, takes the concept to a logical extreme, anthropomorphizing the forms, and then exalting them as being the gods. In gnosticism, the highest form, or ousia, is generally regarded as the highest deity of that religion (for example, Bythus for the Valentinians), and the rest of their "pantheon of gods" are not independent deities, but rather derivations of the attributes of that ultimate god. For example, they may have a deity of light (photos), but it is understood that light is only an attribute of the higher deity. They go on to eventually denounce everything material (all hypostases) as being imperfect and thus evil.
Thus it is that the apostle Paul devotes an entire book - Colossians - to clearing up misunderstandings on this subject caused by gnostic teachings.
Paul is clear in showing that Jesus is material, and existed here below "in the flesh" (refuting the gnostic teaching that Christ was not here materially). Colossians 1:15 says that Jesus is "the eikon of the invisible God." Eikon (or icon), is the same word the NT elsewhere translates as "idol." Paul is saying that while God Himself belongs to the realm of the celestial, He has provided Jesus as His exact image - His exact Form - in a material representation here on earth. As the heathens' idols of wood and stone were mere representations of the powers they really worshipped, so was the man Jesus the representation of the One True God.
Paul further shows that Jesus is not merely one aspect (enthymesis) of the Godhead expressed, as the gnostics taught Him to be one attribute of the Godhead, but rather that He is the representation of ALL the attributes. Col 1:19 "For it pleased the Father that in him should all the Pleroma (fulness) dwell."
Understanding the words, then, leads one to read the early creeds differently. The Father is transcendant, He is a Mind and not a body. He cannot be a hypostasis Himself. Jesus was the hypostasis of the ousia of the Father - the Son, we say, for the Mind has begotten the Word, and the Word is what has come to us in the flesh. Fast forward, and the church is the hypostasis. The church is the
body of Christ.
As to the Spirit of God which "proceeds from the Father," it is evident that It is that part of God which carries the thoughts from the Mind to the Body. One cannot make it a Mind unto Itself. Note:
When he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. (John 16:13)
So I do not find the early church in error. I do find the later, Latin church, did a poor job of understanding and translating the Greek.
As for myself, I believe in the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost, and I understand there to be but One God, transcendant above all, and One Lord, the Son, the hypostasis of the pleroma of this same One God, and One Holy Spirit, the Spirit of that One God by which the divine Mind communicates His Word to His body, and One Church, which is that body and the primary means by which God acts here below.
So call me a trinitarian, or not a trinitarian. I've been accused of both. I will take the truth, and let the rest fall where it may.
Jarrod
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Thu Nov 17, 2011 - 14:32:19
At the risk of repeating myself...
"I and my Father are One" proves the first, and the second is a non-sequitor. (My arm is part of me, and God's Spirit is a part of God)
"One" to mean nature, essence & mind? I believe the context is mind and thought and anything more requires special pleading on your behalf.
Your assertion is without evidence. Jesus never made claim to deity once! He merely said he performs the deeds of his Father. This claim to divine authority was enough to antagonise the Jews, but says nothing of the essential "three in one" concept of the Trinity.
Now this "oneness" was shared by Father and Son in John 10:30 is clearly and unmistakably teaching a unity of purpose, character and relationship, and many well-known scholars such as R.V.G have demonstrated the grammar and context is clearly one of sharing a common Logos in thought, purpose and action.
Your response reveals contempt for the passage which has become the standard approach in Trinitarian exegesis.
Further to this we also know later he prayed this
oneness would be shared with himself, his disciples and his Father, using the Greek word hen in the same way:
John 17:11, "'I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them safe in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one just as
we are one."
John 17:21-22, "'that they will all be one, just as you, Father, are in me and I am in you. I pray that they will be in us, so that the world will believe that you sent me. The glory you gave to me I have given to them, that they may be one just as
we are one '"
In terms of your avoidance in proving the Holy Spirit is God, by implying this is illogical. The Holy Spirit is easily proven to be the Power
of God directed as He pleases and though it is often personified with "he
: Insight Thu Nov 17, 2011 - 20:47:43
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Thu Nov 17, 2011 - 14:32:19
At the risk of repeating myself...
"I and my Father are One"
"One" to mean nature, essence & mind? I believe the context is mind and thought and anything more requires special pleading on your behalf.
Your assertion is without evidence. Jesus never made claim to deity once! He merely said he performs the deeds of his Father. This claim to divine authority was enough to antagonise the Jews, but says nothing of the essential "three in one" concept of the Trinity.
Now this "oneness" was shared by Father and Son in John 10:30 is clearly and unmistakably teaching a unity of purpose, character and relationship, and many well-known scholars such as R.V.G have demonstrated the grammar and context is clearly one of sharing a common Logos in thought, purpose and action.
Your response reveals contempt for the passage which has become the standard approach in Trinitarian exegesis.
Contempt? ::pondering::
Hardly. John 10 is the seminal passage in the gospels formulating the doctrine of the essential unity of both Father and Son, and Son and church, as you point out here:
Further to this we also know later he prayed this oneness would be shared with himself, his disciples and his Father, using the Greek word hen in the same way:
John 17:11, "'I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them safe in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are one."
John 17:21-22, "'that they will all be one, just as you, Father, are in me and I am in you. I pray that they will be in us, so that the world will believe that you sent me. The glory you gave to me I have given to them, that they may be one just as we are one '"
You seem to have a problem understanding just exactly what I do say. Part of this is because the subject matter is difficult. The other part of this is because you keep attempting to stuff me into a box of your preconception about exactly what "trinitarians" believe. You need to throw out the box. I do not fit into it. What I believe is not typical of an American church.
Let's speak to the actual passage then. "One" is grammatically a descriptor here. However, the word which it describes is not in the text. There is an implied word. "I and my Father are one _____." The question is what word should be implied?
Here we can look at the morphology of the word, and note that it is in the neuter case. Whatever it describes is not a HE or a SHE. We can eliminate the possibility that Jesus is saying "one person."
That leaves us with the conclusion that the verse might be better translated "I and my Father are unified." Try re-reading the passage with that meaning, and see what a difference it makes.
In terms of your avoidance in proving the Holy Spirit is God, by implying this is illogical. The Holy Spirit is easily proven to be the Power of God directed as He pleases and though it is often personified with "he
Hi Jarrod,
I have not forgotten about your response just a little preoccupied as I have a talk on Hebrews 12 coming up shortly.
I found your reply very insightful and hope to respond shortly.
Insight
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Fri Nov 18, 2011 - 13:59:05
"I and my Father are One"
Hardly. John 10 is the seminal passage in the gospels formulating the doctrine of the essential unity of both Father and Son, and Son and church, as you point out here:
Actually the chapter is speaking to the theme of the Shepherding of Father and Son.
I will resist from expounding the chapter as you would have these lessons in mind.
John 17:21-22, "'that they will all be one, just as you, Father, are in me and I am in you. I pray that they will be in us, so that the world will believe that you sent me. The glory you gave to me I have given to them, that they (Jarrod & Insight) may be one just as we are one '"
Do you suggest we will be God also?
You seem to have a problem understanding just exactly what I do say. Part of this is because the subject matter is difficult. The other part of this is because you keep attempting to stuff me into a box of your preconception about exactly what "trinitarians" believe. You need to throw out the box. I do not fit into it. What I believe is not typical of an American church.
Yes, I apologise for doing so. Speaking to Trinitarian believers regularly can cause an element of hardness.
Thanks for clarifying your position.
Let's speak to the actual passage then. "One" is grammatically a descriptor here. However, the word which it describes is not in the text. There is an implied word. "I and my Father are one _____." The question is what word should be implied?
Given we have two persona's but sharing the same purpose?
One Mind would relate to Logos and John 1:1,14.
Funny thing about the word exousia. It's a compound of Ex- meaning "coming out of" and Ousia, which I believe we have already defined in some detail. Feel free to comment on that.
See http://www.ntresources.com/kenosis.htm Rodney J. Decker (Professor - a Trinitarian scholar who admits that the traditional (which I appreciate you do not hold) Trinitarian interpretation of morphē is one of theological bias.
I would be interested in your thoughts concerning his views on Ousia and morphē.
Jarrod, as you have no doubt realised I prefer contextual studies in God's Word and find less value in grammatical/textual studies. Not to say we cannot be enlightened to greater depth of meaning, rather Paul's example provides no such example of breaking down language to discover truth, and only ever suggests comparing spiritual things with spiritual. (1 Corinthians 2:13) of Scripture with Scripture.
My apologies once more for taking so long to return your post.
Insight
: Insight Thu Nov 24, 2011 - 04:30:52
John 17:21-22, "'that they will all be one, just as you, Father, are in me and I am in you. I pray that they will be in us, so that the world will believe that you sent me. The glory you gave to me I have given to them, that they (Jarrod & Insight) may be one just as we are one '"
Do you suggest we will be God also?
Yes, we
are currently God, in much the same way that the Spirit of God is God. Which is not to say that I and HE are just one HE, or even that I and HE are two gods, but rather to say that I am a part of HIM.
And doesn't the Bible say exactly the same? "We are the body" and He is the head. In between we have the Holy
Nerves Spirit to relay the impulses, commands and words to the Body.
Let's speak to the actual passage then. "One" is grammatically a descriptor here. However, the word which it describes is not in the text. There is an implied word. "I and my Father are one _____." The question is what word should be implied?
Given we have two persona's but sharing the same purpose?
One Mind would relate to Logos and John 1:1,14.
The passage is speaking of the ability to keep people safe - to keep anyone from "plucking them out of My hand." So they would have to be one in purpose, and also in ability, at the least. John 1
is relevant, being part of the same book.
Let's try a comparison. I will compare the Father to a cookie cutter.
Consider the cookie-cutter. It is a circle. Now, I can use my cookie cutter to shape cookie dough, or I can use it on cabbage, or ice cream, or whatever I want. But the end result will always be a circle.
Now I can look at my cookie-cutter and call it cookie-cutter or I can say it is a circle.
I can look at my cookie and call it cookie or I can say it is a circle.
I can look at my slice of cabbage leaf and call it circle as well.
And my ice cream, for a while at least, will be a circle as well.
Likewise, there is God, and I may call Him Father truly and indeed, for He begets, and 'to beget' means nothing more than to give your own shape to some substance, just like the cookie cutter does in the example above. (I will here refrain from boring you with a grammatical study, since you seem to dislike them.)
He may cut from the cloth of angelic beings, and then I shall call Him "the angel of the Lord," but we understand that being to be God, even though materially He is an angel.
He may clothe Himself with the substance of humanity, and we would not be in error in the least to call that being "the son of God," and we should also understand that being to be God, even though, materially, he is a man.
(I seem to recall language like this in my Bible...)
And, because I cannot totally abandon my words... in my metaphor, "circle" is the
ousia. And our circular cookie would be a hypostasis of it. The circular cabbage leaf and the circle-cut ice cream would also be hypostases.
More some other time..
Jarrod
Insight....."I like how you draw us to the phrase exact image , while NOT being the actual substance of that image. Again pre-existence cannot be forced upon Hebrews 1 or Col 1."
Jarrod..."The argument wasn't actually about pre-existence here, but if you'd like, we can make it to be. I think, before you assume what I believe, I will tell you exactly what I do believe:
I believe that The Word was pre-existent (In the beginning was the Word), in an unbegotten state (and the Word was with God). That is to say, The Word had not been spoken yet, and so IT existed only as a thought in the mind of God.
Some time later, the Word was spoken, and thus begotten. The Bible isn't clear on when that happened, IMO.
Then, at some point, the begotten Word was "made flesh," meaning that It now had a hypostasis. We call Him Jesus.
I also believe it would be a mistake to make The Word a seperate person from God. God (the Father, if you will) IS NOT MATERIAL AND HAS NO SUBSTANCE, and exists as an intelligence. He is a Mind. So then, what is The Word but the thoughts of that Mind?
I like how you draw us to the phrase exact image , while NOT being the actual substance of that image. Again pre-existence cannot be forced upon Hebrews 1 or Col 1.
The argument wasn't actually about pre-existence here, but if you'd like, we can make it to be. I think, before you assume what I believe, I will tell you exactly what I do believe:
I believe that The Word was pre-existent (In the beginning was the Word), in an unbegotten state (and the Word was with God). That is to say, The Word had not been spoken yet, and so IT existed only as a thought in the mind of God.
Some time later, the Word was spoken, and thus begotten. The Bible isn't clear on when that happened, IMO.
Then, at some point, the begotten Word was "made flesh," meaning that It now had a hypostasis. We call Him Jesus.
I also believe it would be a mistake to make The Word a seperate person from God. God (the Father, if you will) IS NOT MATERIAL AND HAS NO SUBSTANCE, and exists as an intelligence. He is a Mind. So then, what is The Word but the thoughts of that Mind?
If I say that my thoughts and my mind are the same, am I not correct? Likewise, The Word is God."
I appreciate you standing your ground Jarrod.....
Somewhere up there the statement was made that "Jesus was not Deity.."
As you are aware, this is exactly what Islam teaches and it is a stumbling block in converting men to The Lord.
Paul testified by the inspiration of the Spirit:
"Having this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: who, existed in the form of God,
counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the
form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men; and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled
himself; becoming obedient even unto death, yea, the death of the cross. (Philippians 2:5-8).
That is to say, the Logos, the Son of God, did not count His "being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped.'
i.e., to be taken hold of and clung to---simply because it was His by nature and His by right.
For He was not only with God "in the beginning," but He was God.
He "emptied himself," we are told, "taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of man;
and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, yea, the
death of the cross."
Verse 2 of Hebrews 1 says, "through whom also He made the worlds."
Meaning: Christ was present in creation.
Verified by Genesis 1:26 "Let us make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness...."
Verse 3 of Hebrews 1 speaks of "His substance."
This verse alone makes Him, Jesus.... "DEITY."
I very seldom quote John Calvin, but here is an exception.
"He is called the 'impress of His substance', because the majesty of the Father is hidden until it
shows itself impressed as it were on his image. They who overlook this connection and carry
their philosophy higher, weary themselves to no purpose, for they do not understand the design
of the Apostle (Hebrew writer); for it was not his object to show what likeness the Father bears
to the Son!"
Trying to fully understand divine reality with human terms is too much for man.
Islam tries to understand Jesus by saying that "he is the son of Mary....."
: Insight Thu Nov 24, 2011 - 04:30:52
See http://www.ntresources.com/kenosis.htm Rodney J. Decker (Professor - a Trinitarian scholar who admits that the traditional (which I appreciate you do not hold) Trinitarian interpretation of morphē is one of theological bias.
I would be interested in your thoughts concerning his views on Ousia and morphē.
I glanced at it, but I'm lost here. What passage of Scripture is he talking about? He says a lot about morphe, but I'm not familiar with that being a term in the writings of the early church.
Jarrod
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Fri Nov 25, 2011 - 21:21:04
: Insight Thu Nov 24, 2011 - 04:30:52
See http://www.ntresources.com/kenosis.htm Rodney J. Decker (Professor - a Trinitarian scholar who admits that the traditional (which I appreciate you do not hold) Trinitarian interpretation of morphē is one of theological bias.
I would be interested in your thoughts concerning his views on Ousia and morphē.
I glanced at it, but I'm lost here. What passage of Scripture is he talking about? He says a lot about morphe, but I'm not familiar with that being a term in the writings of the early church.
Jarrod
He is speaking to Philippians 2:5-11, The Kenosis
The major concerns of these theologians was three-fold.
How to explain the full humanity of Christ. (The Gospel record portrays a real man with human limitations-growth, hunger, thirst, learning.)
How to explain that God truly was in Christ and maintain one person (e.g., man learns; God = omniscient)
How could Jesus be God & man without postulating two centers of consciousness (& thus not really like us)?
Of course the only possible and plausible conclusion is Jesus was fully human in every respect not possessing divine nature.
Insight
: Insight Sun Nov 27, 2011 - 18:55:19
He is speaking to Philippians 2:5-11, The Kenosis
The major concerns of these theologians was three-fold.
How to explain the full humanity of Christ. (The Gospel record portrays a real man with human limitations-growth, hunger, thirst, learning.)
How to explain that God truly was in Christ and maintain one person (e.g., man learns; God = omniscient)
How could Jesus be God & man without postulating two centers of consciousness (& thus not really like us)?
Of course the only possible and plausible conclusion is Jesus was fully human in every respect not possessing divine nature.
Insight
You seem to be caught in a false dichotomy.
The argument is that one cannot be God in form, and also man in form, because the one has limitations the other perhaps doesn't.
But from Genesis 1, we see that man was made in the form ("image") of God, right from the beginning.
The form of man is not a seperate thing from the form of God. These two are not necessarily incompatible. Rather, the form of mankind is a specific subspace of it of the form of God.
Shall we try another example? Suppose I have a mold that shapes things into spheres. It's a pair of hemispheres. I can pile moist clay into them and make perfect spheres.
But suppose I have no malleable clay, and so I use the only material available to me, which is just a flat tablet of already dry clay. Instead of making spheres, I am now making circle patterns on the tablet.
This argument is akin to saying that these circles couldn't have come from the spherical mold, because they have limitations which the sphere does not have.
That just doesn't hold up. The limitations you perceive are in the material that man is formed of, not in the pattern which the Godhead imprints upon it.
Now, it is your turn to again point to the sphere, point to the circle, and say, "they don't match!" Except that isn't the comparison. We only need the two to come from the same pattern, or form, or cookie cutter, or image, or however-else-you'd-like-to-express-that-idea.
Jesus is God in
Form. In substance, he is man.
If I may go on a small tangent here... In ancient days, men believed that mothers provided the substance from which babies were formed, and that fathers provided the form or pattern according to which the babies were formed from that substance. Forget what you know of genetics for a minute, try on this worldview, and when you've got your head wrapped around it, try to apply it to the Incarnation, and see how it changes your understanding of it.
Jarrod
.
The Worldwide Church of God changed it's beliefs and practices to basically become a run-of-the-mill Pentecostal church. It sounds like this group decided to remain true to Herbert's old teachings.
From what I know of them, it's their End Times views that really seperated the WWCoG as something weird and different. But no weirder than what goes on in our own End Times forum, I fear.
Jarrod
: Hehealedme Tue Nov 29, 2011 - 10:13:55
I always thought I understood the Trinity. I mean I studied it a little as I read about it in the Bible. There is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit....
But now I have a little problem with this, I am getting confused more and more every day... A few months ago, I had a booklet about the Trinity delivered to my house called ''Is God a Trinity?''.......I got it from the Good News Magazine. It explains that God the Father and God the Son are like ''persons'' but God the Holy Spirit is not like a ''person'', it is rather a considered as a force or power...therefore, according to their teaching, the Trinity isn't really a Trinity...there are a lot of Scripture to support their teaching...so.....I am really getting confused at this point... ::headscratch:: ::frustrated::
A very devout Christian lady friend of mine told me that the United Church of God which the Good News magazine is from, was first started by Mr. Herbert W. Armstrong (1892-1986). She says that it is a cult.
Her proof comes from this page:
http://www.exitsupportnetwork.com/artcls/ucg.htm (http://www.exitsupportnetwork.com/artcls/ucg.htm)
For instance, one quote from them:
''United Church of God teaches that they are the "continuation of the one and only true church of God" (tracing their origins to "the church that Jesus founded in the early first century" and following "the same teachings, doctrines and practices established then."3 ). What they actually follow are the teachings, doctrines and practices of Herbert W. Armstrong who founded the Worldwide Church of God in 1934. They believe they are "God's true church" evidenced by their "obedience to God's Laws" and being a "small flock." Members are to be "fully committed to the Work." ......there is plenty more in that flavour.
But I have read about the United Church of God on this page:
http://www.ucg.org/about/ (http://www.ucg.org/about/)
For instance, this is one quote I found from them:
''Many of the current ministers and members of the United Church of God were once members of the Worldwide Church of God, a nonprofit corporation under the leadership of Herbert W. Armstrong until his death in 1986. A subsequent unwarranted shift toward nonbiblical practices and beliefs led numerous ministers and members to leave the fellowship of that organization.''...............
Which, if I understand correctly, means that they no longer follow what Mr. Herbert W. Armstrong used to teach. ......am I correct ? ? ?
Can some of you PLEASE explain to me what the Trinity really is?!!!!!!!!
Thank you for taking the time to read this and especially to answer my questions... ::help::
ps: I won't be able to come back and read the answers, at least for a few day, since I am working night shifts this week...I need to sleep more during the day since I am not used to sleeping during that time...I will however come back as soon as possible...thank you...I do not wish to argue or debate about the Trinity, I just need answers to my questions...again I thank you...
The Trinity originated from creeds (consider it a politically design state of faith). There are many stidies done on its origins.
http://www.sullivan-county.com/identity/trinity.htm
I don't agree with everything in this study but you will get the idea of its history.
Read your Bible, pray and learn its hidden truth - or follow the rest of the Christian zombies into the grave oblivious of a greater truth
Insight
Jesus might be in the bosum of God the father.
There is a verse in the NT that states that.
Also, in revelations there is an example of Jesus coming out from the throne or the light that surrounds the throne. The idea of trinity is correct, but I don't think our human minds at this point can grasp what it really means.
: cs80918 Fri Dec 02, 2011 - 12:40:24
Jesus might be in the bosum of God the father.
There is a verse in the NT that states that.
Also, in revelations there is an example of Jesus coming out from the throne or the light that surrounds the throne. The idea of trinity is correct, but I don't think our human minds at this point can grasp what it really means.
Take the mystery approach and remain in Egyptian Darkness.
At least you will not know what you are stumbling over.
So far we can establish the OP Is our understanding of the Trinity, correct? is a resounding no because its impossible to reconcile its teaching with Bible Principles.
: Insight Sun Dec 04, 2011 - 17:33:25
So far we can establish the OP Is our understanding of the Trinity, correct? is a resounding no because its impossible to reconcile its teaching with Bible Principles.
I would agree there is very little
understanding of the Trinity. Most believers, even most churches, hold the position that "it is a mystery."
Why would it be otherwise? Even in the early church ca 300 AD, there was much controversy on this subject. That being said, it does not make the doctrine unbiblical or wrong. It is just shrouded in darkness.
This much cannot be refuted - the Bible definitely does contain the formulation of "Father, Son, and Holy Ghost." It's in there. Whether it constitutes a trinity, or a unity, or a metaphor for understanding something complex - I'll leave that to you. I've already said my piece on that here.
Jarrod
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Sun Dec 04, 2011 - 17:43:43
: Insight Sun Dec 04, 2011 - 17:33:25
So far we can establish the OP Is our understanding of the Trinity, correct? is a resounding no because its impossible to reconcile its teaching with Bible Principles.
I would agree there is very little understanding of the Trinity. Most believers, even most churches, hold the position that "it is a mystery."
Why would it be otherwise? Even in the early church ca 300 AD, there was much controversy on this subject. That being said, it does not make the doctrine unbiblical or wrong. It is just shrouded in darkness.
This much cannot be refuted - the Bible definitely does contain the formulation of "Father, Son, and Holy Ghost." It's in there. Whether it constitutes a trinity, or a unity, or a metaphor for understanding something complex - I'll leave that to you. I've already said my piece on that here.
Jarrod
Jarrod,
I agree with this statement "formulation of "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." I never like seeing the Ghost part always irks me.
One does not need to turn to creeds do provide what the Bible plainly teaches.
Insight
I like holy ghost, it sounds more powerful, but I also like holy spirit, sounds graceful.
: FireSword Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 19:59:57
I like holy ghost, it sounds more powerful, but I also like holy spirit, sounds graceful.
Ghost has poor connotations and there is nothing mystical about our hope.
(http://www.katzy.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/fly3.gif)
An interesting debate. But what I see here is the wisdom of man arguing with the wisdom of man trying to explain what is revealed only by the wisdom of God.
I have wrestled with this subject for quite some time and it wasn't until I gave up trying to understand of my own will and asked God to reveal his truth concerning this subject of the trinity to me that God revealed his truth to me. And I must say that the truth of who God is makes our understanding of the scriptures new and alive.
Now before we can understand what God is revealing in his word, we first need to understand how to receive God's truth. And to understand this is to rely on God for understanding and not on the wisdom of man.. And herein is the problem with the teachings of man. Man continually tries to interpret God's word instead of allowing God to interpret his own word for us.
Now as stated in your posts, the word of God is not intended for any private interpretation. And further more, the word says that the scriptures are spiritually discerned. So then the question is, how do we spiritually discern the scriptures. And the answer is, we allow the Holy Spirit that is within us to guide us into all truth by comparing scripture with scripture. For we are told in 1 John 2:27 But the anointing which you have received of him abides in you, and you need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teaches you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it has taught you, you shall abide in him. So then, you see that it is not by the wisdom of man but by the Spirit within us that we get understanding. Also, note what is recorded for us in 1 Cor. 2:12-13. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Now as one of you stated, the word trinity is not found in the Bible. There is mentioned a Godhead but not a trinity. Now, keeping in mind, as one of you also stated, the word God as used in the Bible is a title denoting the Creator. So it can mean more than one spirit being. So with that said, Let us delve into the word and learn about God.
So what does scripture tell us of God. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (Joh 4:24) God is Holy, "For I am the LORD your God: you shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and you shall be holy; for I am holy:".....(Lev 11:44) God is Love, "He that loves not knows not God; for God is love. (1Jn 4:8) And we have known and believed the love that God has to us. God is love; and he that dwells in love dwells in God, and God in him. "(1Jn 4:16) God is Righteous. "The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works." (Psa 145:17) So, Who is God? God is a loving, righteous, Holy Spirit. God exist as a Holy Spirit. This then is what our God exist as. He is a Holy Spirit that is Loving and Righteous in all his ways. So if God is a Holy Spirit, then all aspects of God is Holy Spirit whether it is one two or three beings.
Now, we are told in scripture that the Word God is the first created of God. Now any student of the word should know that the Word became Jesus the Christ in the flesh. So in the book of Rev. we read, Rev 3:14 " And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; these things says the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.
: Stosh Fri Dec 16, 2011 - 12:46:33
For as quoted in your post,
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
You seem to have misquoted the verse. It actually says "and the Word WAS God." Not "with God." You've changed the whole meaning by adding a word that isn't there.
Jarrod
Sorry but you are mistaken. This is exactly how it is recorded in the King James version that I use. And if you will reread my post you will see that the next line of type has the end of the verse that says AND THE WORD WAS GOD.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God, and the Word WAS God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Now I don't know what Bible you use, but I use the King James version along with the Strong's Concordance and also the Interlinear Bible which has both the Greek and the English translations so that I can be assured that I have the truth in God's word. In this way I can check to see that every word from the received Greek text is translated properly into my English version. The Interlinear Bible gives me the the original Greek words and also the literal translation into English from these texts. And by the use of the Strong's I am able to verify the proper translation of every word in the Bible.
Oh I see. I didn't see that it cut off and continued later. My bad there.
But, if the Word WAS God, then how do you come to the conclusion that God created "another" god?
But, if the Word WAS God, then how do you come to the conclusion that God created "another" god?
Good question.
In the book of Revelations chapter 3:14 Jesus says that he is the beginning of the creation of God. And since we know, or should know, that Jesus was the Word before becoming flesh man, and since it is recorded in the book of John that the Word was God, and was with God, then it should be apparent that God created another God to be with him. And with this knowledge we then see that since the Word created all other things whether in heaven or in earth, then the Word is the actual Creator God revealed in the old testament.
I can only speculate as to why the Eternal God needed another Creator God but it is possible that the Eternal Holy Spirit is to Pure and to Holy to come into direct contact with his sinful creation of flesh man and therefore it was necessary for him to create another Creator God that could be a mediator between the Holy Spirit and man.
If this is the first time you've heard this, then I know it can be confusing, but if you study the scriptures with this understanding then the scriptures will make more sense to you then they can with man's interpretation of the word. For we are told in scripture that the word is not meant for any private interpretation. And we are also told that the scriptures are spiritually discerned. And we are told that we are to compare spiritual things with spiritual things. And we are told that we need that no man teach us but that the Holy Spirit will teach us all things. So then it is not by the wisdom of man that we can know the things of God but by God's Holy Spirit that is in us. Man can study the word for all eternity and never come to the truth in the word unless God reveals his truth to him through his Holy Spirit. This is just the way it is.
Jas 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
Jas 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
Jas 1:7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
Jas 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
: Stosh Fri Dec 16, 2011 - 12:46:33
An interesting debat
e. But what I see here is the wisdom of man arguing with the wisdom of man trying to explain what is revealed only by the wisdom of God.
I am sure you will help us all to discover the Wisdom of God?
I have wrestled with this subject for quite some time and it wasn't until I gave up trying to understand of my own will and asked God to reveal his truth concerning this subject of the trinity to me that God revealed his truth to me. And I must say that the truth of who God is makes our understanding of the scriptures new and alive.
A private revelation? Interesting!
Now before we can understand what God is revealing in his word, we first need to understand how to receive God's truth. And to understand this is to rely on God for understanding and not on the wisdom of man.. And herein is the problem with the teachings of man. Man continually tries to interpret God's word instead of allowing God to interpret his own word for us.
This is truth...if one has the discipline to follow the Father without personal bias – lets see if you maintain the course shall we?
Now as stated in your posts, the word of God is not intended for any private interpretation. And further more, the word says that the scriptures are spiritually discerned. So then the question is, how do we spiritually discern the scriptures. And the answer is, we allow the Holy Spirit that is within us to guide us into all truth by comparing scripture with scripture.
Are you able to show forth an understanding of the Holy Spirit being actually deposited in you? I would be interested in how you support your understanding.
If you believe one needs the Holy Spirit deposited within for an understanding of the Scriptures, then already your previous statement's are flawed – buts let's see your reasoning first.
For we are told in 1 John 2:27 But the anointing which you have received of him abides in you, and you need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teaches you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it has taught you, you shall abide in him.
27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.Can you define the anointing? You presume this passage supports your idea of the Holy Spirit being deposited in to a believer.
You see later in this passage John defines this anointing but I don't think you have grasped John's teaching.
I am keen to see how disciplined you are to adhering your own claims.
We shall see.
So then, you see that it is not by the wisdom of man but by the Spirit within us that we get understanding.
Again your understanding needs further clarification.
I will wait before responding.
Also, note what is recorded for us in 1 Cor. 2:12-13. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Again defining exactly what has been received you may like to go back to Johns epistle for defining precisely what has been received.
Now as one of you stated, the word trinity is not found in the Bible.
Correct.
And for good reason...which I hope you will expound.
There is mentioned a Godhead but not a trinity. Now, keeping in mind, as one of you also stated, the word God as used in the Bible is a title denoting the Creator. So it can mean more than one spirit being. So with that said, Let us delve into the word and learn about God.
So what does scripture tell us of God. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (Joh 4:24) God is Holy, "For I am the LORD your God: you shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and you shall be holy; for I am holy:".....(Lev 11:44) God is Love, "He that loves not knows not God; for God is love. (1Jn 4:8) And we have known and believed the love that God has to us. God is love; and he that dwells in love dwells in God, and God in him. "(1Jn 4:16) God is Righteous. "The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works." (Psa 145:17) So, Who is God? God is a loving, righteous, Holy Spirit. God exist as a Holy Spirit. This then is what our God exist as. He is a Holy Spirit that is Loving and Righteous in all his ways. So if God is a Holy Spirit, then all aspects of God is Holy Spirit whether it is one two or three beings.
Good.
Now, we are told in scripture that the Word God is the first created of God. Now any student of the word should know that the Word became Jesus the Christ in the flesh. So in the book of Rev. we read, Rev 3:14 " And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; these things says the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.
I am sure you will help us all to discover the Wisdom of God?
I'm afraid I can't help you though because I can tell from the way you've worded your reply that you already know all there is to know of God. But I will reply to you anyway.
This is truth...if one has the discipline to follow the Father without personal bias – lets see if you maintain the course shall we?
An unnecessary bit of sarcasm
A private revelation? Interesting!
Yes, I believe it is.
The topic was the trinity, and I was explaining how to receive the truth in God's word. There is so much confusion between the various teachings of the churches that I was attempting to enlighten you, but I see that you already know all things so my response to you would probably not bear any fruit. But I will respond to your questions after you enlighten me with your understanding.
So with that said, you teach me since you know it all. You tell me who God is. You explain the Godhead to me. You explain the Father The Son and the Holy Spirit. You explain how they can be one. You explain the anointing and the Holy Spirit to me. Since you say that the Word wasn't created, you explain John 1:1-4 to me. I'd be interested in your interpretation. And while you're at it, explain to me the reason for the creation of man. Let's see what your understanding of who the Word of God is. I already sense that you're going give me that time honored teaching that it is the Eternal Father.
Are you able to show forth an understanding of the Holy Spirit being actually deposited in you?
And you'll need to rephrase this question as I don't get "Are you able to show forth an understanding of the Holy Spirit being actually deposited in you?". How am I to show forth an understanding?
: Stosh Mon Dec 19, 2011 - 23:10:57
I am sure you will help us all to discover the Wisdom of God?
I'm afraid I can't help you though because I can tell from the way you've worded your reply that you already know all there is to know of God. But I will reply to you anyway.
This is truth...if one has the discipline to follow the Father without personal bias – lets see if you maintain the course shall we?
An unnecessary bit of sarcasm
A private revelation? Interesting!
Yes, I believe it is.
The topic was the trinity, and I was explaining how to receive the truth in God's word. There is so much confusion between the various teachings of the churches that I was attempting to enlighten you, but I see that you already know all things so my response to you would probably not bear any fruit. But I will respond to your questions after you enlighten me with your understanding.
So with that said, you teach me since you know it all. You tell me who God is. You explain the Godhead to me. You explain the Father The Son and the Holy Spirit. You explain how they can be one. You explain the anointing and the Holy Spirit to me. Since you say that the Word wasn't created, you explain John 1:1-4 to me. I'd be interested in your interpretation. And while you're at it, explain to me the reason for the creation of man. Let's see what your understanding of who the Word of God is. I already sense that you're going give me that time honored teaching that it is the Eternal Father.
Are you able to show forth an understanding of the Holy Spirit being actually deposited in you?
And you'll need to rephrase this question as I don't get "Are you able to show forth an understanding of the Holy Spirit being actually deposited in you?". How am I to show forth an understanding?
I perceive you were easily offended. Also your reply lacked Scripture; it failed to deal with the Spiritual content of my post.
It appears you could not afford me the same respect as I paid you in dealing with your post.
Best we wait for a change of heart.
Insight
Chapter 1
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. 3 Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.
Gen 1:1-3 (NKJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
John 1:1-5 (NKJV)
: bemark Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 01:23:19
Chapter 1
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. 3 Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.
Gen 1:1-3 (NKJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
John 1:1-5 (NKJV)
Good.
Earth = the natural creation revealing the 7 stages of spiritual development
Jesus Christ = the spiritual creation which is the fulfilment of the Man of God made in the image and after the likeness of the Elohim (angels)
Both Gen 1 and John 1 speak beautifully together once you understand Jesus is first-born of the Spirit. First man to be obedient unto the death and raised to glory not that he had the glory in person with God prior else it would not be inherited Glory but something else.
Insight
Ok, I'll give you answers even though I know that you won't receive them because you already believe you have the truth.
I am sure you will help us all to discover the Wisdom of God?
I will if you are guided into all truth by the Spirit that is in you. Unfortunately, I perceive that you are guided by your own wisdom and not by the Spirit of Truth.
A private revelation? Interesting!
God deals with each of us individually so we each receive his truth as a private revelation. I receive the truth by meditating on the word and allowing the Holy Spirit to bring to mind scriptures relevant to the subject I am meditating on.
This is truth...if one has the discipline to follow the Father without personal bias – lets see if you maintain the course shall we?
I speak what the Spirit has shown me to be truth. If you think that this is being bias, then I so be it. I don't speak the things that man's wisdom has taught me, but what the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual things. Where do you get your knowledge from? Is it from man's teachings or from God.
God had his word written in such a way as to confound the wisdom of man. Man with his worldly wisdom can spend an eternity trying to know the things of God and never attain to the truth for it will always be beyond his grasp. For to know the things of God we have to rely completely on God for his revealing of the truth.
Are you able to show forth an understanding of the Holy Spirit being actually deposited in you? I would be interested in how you support your understanding.
If you believe one needs the Holy Spirit deposited within for an understanding of the Scriptures, then already your previous statement's are flawed – buts let's see your reasoning first.
God has given each of us a portion of his Spirit. This Holy Spirit is God himself. He has taken of himself, the very Spiritual substance by which he exist, and he has put himself into us. Ref. all of 1 Cor. chapter 2, In verse 12 it says we received the Spirit which is of God. 1 Cor. 3:16. Here it is revealed that the Spirit of God dwells in us. Jn, 7:37-39 Here it is revealed that we receive the Holy Spirit when we believe on, (or in), Christ. Jn 14:16-18, 15:26, 16:13-14, Acts 2:4, 2:17-18, Rm. 8:1-15, Notice that in verse 9 it says that the Spirit of God dwells in us. I could go on posting scripture but I think you can see that it is God's Spirit that is in those who have believed in Christ.
As a response to your second statement. God states many times in scripture that it is by his Spirit that we know the things of God. He repeatedly states that we do not receive the knowledge of God by man's wisdom. 1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God has prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10 But God has revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11 For what man knows the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knows no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 1Co 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
So as you can see, we know the things of God by the Spirit of God. And this Spirit of God is God himself. He has put a part of himself in us.
27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. Mine
Can you define the anointing? You presume this passage supports your idea of the Holy Spirit being deposited in to a believer.
You see later in this passage John defines this anointing but I don't think you have grasped John's teaching.
I am keen to see how disciplined you are to adhering your own claims.
We shall see.
Yours
This anointing is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It is what is called God within us. And since the Father and the Son, (the Word), are both called God, then it is the Holy Spirit that is both the Father and the Son. They are both of the One Holy Spirit that is the Eternal God. There are two beings that are called God but there is only one that is the Eternal. The other is a created God. This is what the scriptures teach.
So then, you see that it is not by the wisdom of man but by the Spirit within us that we get understanding.
Mine
Again your understanding needs further clarification. I will wait before responding.
yours
All things are of God. Even our ability to understand God's word is a gift of God. He gives us this gift by putting his Spirit in us, and it is only by this Spirit within us that we are able to know the things of God. We cannot with our own physical minds understand the things of God. Man can obtain all of the worldly knowledge that mankind has acquired all generations and man still will not be able to know the things of God unless God himself reveals his truths to us through his Spirit.
Again defining exactly what has been received you may like to go back to Johns epistle for defining precisely what has been received.
As noted earlier, the Holy Spirit is what has been received. Each of us received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Now as one of you stated, the word trinity is not found in the Bible.
Mine
Correct. And for good reason...which I hope you will expound.
yours
The word trinity isn't found in the Bible because there is no trinity. There is but One Eternal Holy Spirit that is called God. And yet there are two Holy Spirits that are called God. The Eternal Holy Spirit created another Holy Spirit of and by his Spirit and gave him the same power and the authority to be a Creator God just as the Eternal is. But since the created can never be equal to the Creator, the created God is inferior to the Eternal God.
You are close to understanding the work of the Father in the Son.
However you fail to understand the Word was not created for the Word has always been the Word or power of Yahweh on High.
The Word became Flesh.
So Jesus is as much a creation of God as Gen 1:1 which is why John is making the strong illusion to the creative works. Whereas Gen 1:1 is the physical creative work John 1:1 is the spiritual creative work of course both having an Alpha and Omega or beginning and end – Yahweh as you will know has no beginning and no end!
Oh I'm more than close, I'm dead on. You, on the other hand, are real good at putting forth the assumption that you have the truth but I have yet to see anything from you showing your knowledge of the truth. The only thing I have seen from you so far is your criticism of my teachings. But so be it.
The Eternal has no beginning and no end. Yahweh, the Word, has a beginning, he was created, but he has no end for the Eternal has given him the gift of immortality, and because of this gift of immortality, he is now eternal too because he will live forever. You think the Word is the Eternal and I say that the Word is the first created being of the Eternal. This Yahweh of the old testament is the Word but he is not the Eternal Holy Spirit. This is why you cannott understand what I am teaching. It's because you believe what the wisdom of man teaches as to who God is, and I teach what the Holy Spirit has shown me in the word concerning God's truth. And it's not a private revelation to me, for God will reveal it to whomever will ask him for his truth if they will only lay aside their own wisdom and understanding and ask God for his truth.
I get the sense that you think Jesus and the Word are two separate beings.
Am I correct in assuming that you think the Word is the Eternal Father and that Jesus only came into existence with his physical birth? If so then you are mistaken.
Look what is recorded for us here in the book of Ephesians . And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world has been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: (Eph 3:9) Jesus could not have created all things if he didn't exist before his earthly existence. And so he had to have existed as the Word.
John 1:1-3 & Rev 1:8 presents you with a great problem.
These verses don't present me with any problem. I understand them quite clearly. Explanation of Jn 1:1-3
The Word as the created God was in the beginning with God. So the Word who was to become the Son was in the beginning with the Eternal Father. What beginning? The beginning of the creation of God. And the Word was God because the Eternal created him with all of attributes that the Father possessed. And this Word is the Creator God of all other things by the will of the Eternal Father. So the Eternal Father is the true Creator of all things because he created the Word, but the Word is the Creator God of all things other than himself by the will and the command of the Father.
And this teaching makes clear Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
"And God said, Let us" With this understanding of who God is, we can see that it was the Eternal God talking with the Word God.
Explanation of Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Jesus Christ is the first and the last. He is the first created of God as the Spirit Word of God. Now he is also the first created of God to be a Spirit Son of God. The Word wasn't created as the Son of God, but as a Spirit being that was to become the Son of God. And Jesus as the Son of God is the first flesh man to be raised from the dead to be with the Father. Jesus is also the first and the last to have done the perfect will of the Father and to sit at the Fathers side. All power and authority in heaven and in earth being put under his control. Now this Word, by giving up his divinity and being born as flesh man, and fulfilling the perfect will of the Father, earned the honor of becoming the Eternal's Son.
Again you have another problem with John 1:1-3 Rev 1:8 and Col 1:15
John and Rev already answered. Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: This word translated image is better translated "like or similar". The definition given in the Strong's Concordance is, G1504 εἰκών eikōn i-kone'
From G1503; a likeness, that is, (literally) statue, profile, or (figuratively) representation, resemblance: - image. So, Son is like, the resemblance of, the Father. And the word "creature" is defined in the Strong's
as, G2937 κτίσις ktisis ktis'-is
From G2936; original formation (properly the act; by implication the thing, literally or figuratively): - building, creation, creature, ordinance. So this verse is better translated Who is the likeness of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Firstborn translates to a beginning which of course Yahweh is without.
Answered
If as you say Jesus is the firstborn of a creation (spiritual) and we also take part in that same birth to receive the same reward as he then Jesus is strikingly different than Him who gave him that spiritual birth (resurrection from the dead)
The flesh man Jesus was strikingly different in that he was flesh and blood. But now he has returned to his Spirit existence so he again is like the Father.
Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
As you can see, Jesus existed with the Father before the very creation of the world.
For is Jesus was given his very life, position at the right-side of the Father through submitting to death, resurrection and ascension...
Then the question must be asked "how many times did Jesus die?
Stosh
Due to the size of your post and out of respect for the effort you have invested I will spend some time answering your thoughts.
While I am doing this would you mind providing the following request:
It appears you do not believe in orthodox Trinitarian teaching.
Would you mind giving me a simple definition of the Godhead.
Here is mine
"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
Godhead
1. God - Yahweh (with His Power (i.e. Holy Spirit)
2. Christ
Over
3. Man
4.Woman
This may allow me to better understand where you are coming from.
Insight
: Insight Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 21:48:33
Stosh
Due to the size of your post and out of respect for the effort you have invested I will spend some time answering your thoughts.
While I am doing this would you mind providing the following request:
It appears you do not believe in orthodox Trinitarian teaching.
Would you mind giving me a simple definition of the Godhead.
Here is mine
"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
Godhead
1. God - Yahweh (with His Power (i.e. Holy Spirit)
2. Christ
Over
3. Man
4.Woman
This may allow me to better understand where you are coming from.
Insight
Is God the Holy Spirit?
How does God the father relate to the holy spirit?
: cs80918 Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 22:43:04
: Insight Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 21:48:33
Stosh
Due to the size of your post and out of respect for the effort you have invested I will spend some time answering your thoughts.
While I am doing this would you mind providing the following request:
It appears you do not believe in orthodox Trinitarian teaching.
Would you mind giving me a simple definition of the Godhead.
Here is mine
"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
Godhead
1. God - Yahweh (with His Power (i.e. Holy Spirit)
2. Christ
Over
3. Man
4.Woman
This may allow me to better understand where you are coming from.
Insight
Is God the Holy Spirit?
How does God the father relate to the holy spirit?
Look up Luke 1:35 and tell me what the Holy Spirit is?
Insight
: cs80918 Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 22:43:04
Is God the Holy Spirit?
How does God the father relate to the holy spirit?
Yes. Roughly the same way the brain relates to the spinal cord.
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 23:30:49
: cs80918 Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 22:43:04
Is God the Holy Spirit?
How does God the father relate to the holy spirit?
Yes. Roughly the same way the brain relates to the spinal cord.
This answer is deeper than first imagined for its understanding is in the mind, thought and action.
Beautiful.
The Godhead
1. The Eternal Holy Spirit ( referred to by the title God )
2. The Son ( Also referred to by the title God.) ( First existed as the created Word, the beginning of the creation of God. ) ( Is the creator of all things other than himself) ( relinquished his divinity by the will of the Eternal Father in order to become the flesh man Jesus. )
: Stosh Wed Dec 21, 2011 - 00:03:08
The Godhead
1. The Eternal Holy Spirit ( referred to by the title God )
2. The Son ( Also referred to by the title God.) ( First existed as the created Word, the beginning of the creation of God. ) ( Is the creator of all things other than himself) ( relinquished his divinity by the will of the Eternal Father in order to become the flesh man Jesus. )
Do you have a Bible verse(s) to support your Godhead?
They are the only two gods mentioned in the Bible. In order to be a member of a Godhead you would have to be a God. God the Father and God the Son, the Godhead
: Insight Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 16:37:44
: bemark Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 01:23:19
Chapter 1
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. 3 Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.
Gen 1:1-3 (NKJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
John 1:1-5 (NKJV)
Good.
Earth = the natural creation revealing the 7 stages of spiritual development
Jesus Christ = the spiritual creation which is the fulfilment of the Man of God made in the image and after the likeness of the Elohim (angels)
Both Gen 1 and John 1 speak beautifully together once you understand Jesus is first-born of the Spirit. First man to be obedient unto the death and raised to glory not that he had the glory in person with God prior else it would not be inherited Glory but something else.
Insight
That's interesting about the seven stages of spiritual development could you please expand this.
: Insight Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 22:44:57
: cs80918 Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 22:43:04
: Insight Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 21:48:33
Stosh
Due to the size of your post and out of respect for the effort you have invested I will spend some time answering your thoughts.
While I am doing this would you mind providing the following request:
It appears you do not believe in orthodox Trinitarian teaching.
Would you mind giving me a simple definition of the Godhead.
Here is mine
"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
Godhead
1. God - Yahweh (with His Power (i.e. Holy Spirit)
2. Christ
Over
3. Man
4.Woman
This may allow me to better understand where you are coming from.
Insight
Is God the Holy Spirit?
How does God the father relate to the holy spirit?
Look up Luke 1:35 and tell me what the Holy Spirit is?
Insight
Insight have you ever felt the Holy Spirit come upon you and enter through you?Do you know what he feels like?
And also interesting about the seven stages about spiritual development in relationship to creation and could you please expand this
: bemark Wed Dec 21, 2011 - 02:13:04
: Insight Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 16:37:44
: bemark Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 01:23:19
Chapter 1
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. 3 Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.
Gen 1:1-3 (NKJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
John 1:1-5 (NKJV)
Good.
Earth = the natural creation revealing the 7 stages of spiritual development
Jesus Christ = the spiritual creation which is the fulfilment of the Man of God made in the image and after the likeness of the Elohim (angels)
Both Gen 1 and John 1 speak beautifully together once you understand Jesus is first-born of the Spirit. First man to be obedient unto the death and raised to glory not that he had the glory in person with God prior else it would not be inherited Glory but something else.
Insight
That's interesting about the seven stages of spiritual development could you please expand this.
: Insight Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 22:44:57
: cs80918 Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 22:43:04
: Insight Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 21:48:33
Stosh
Due to the size of your post and out of respect for the effort you have invested I will spend some time answering your thoughts.
While I am doing this would you mind providing the following request:
It appears you do not believe in orthodox Trinitarian teaching.
Would you mind giving me a simple definition of the Godhead.
Here is mine
"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
Godhead
1. God - Yahweh (with His Power (i.e. Holy Spirit)
2. Christ
Over
3. Man
4.Woman
This may allow me to better understand where you are coming from.
Insight
Is God the Holy Spirit?
How does God the father relate to the holy spirit?
Look up Luke 1:35 and tell me what the Holy Spirit is?
Insight
Insight have you ever felt the Holy Spirit come upon you and enter through you?Do you know what he feels like?
And also interesting about the seven stages about spiritual development in relationship to creation and could you please expand this
Maybe you could start a thread and we can discuss the most important parable in all the Bible.
Gen 1 - The foundation chapter upon which the whole Bible stands.
Insight
: Stosh Wed Dec 21, 2011 - 00:24:22
They are the only two gods mentioned in the Bible. In order to be a member of a Godhead you would have to be a God. God the Father and God the Son, the Godhead
For in him (Jesus) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. (Colossians 2:9)
Of course this is post resurrection in his exalted position.
THE GODHEAD - GOD is one, not three.
He has revealed Himself as the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ and of all who are related to Him in faith (Deut. 6:4; Mark 12:29-32; 1 Cor. 8:5-6; Eph. 4:6; 1 Tim. 1:17; 2:5.
Yahweh is His Name and the Son is still subject to the Father to this very day.
If Christ was the Godhead singular there would be no reason for him to hand over the rulership and dominion of the earth to his Father.
For he (Yahweh) hath put all things under his (Jesus) feet. But when he (Yahweh) saith all things are put under him (Jesus), it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him (Jesus). And when all things shall be subdued unto him (Yahwhe), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him (Yahweh) that put all things under him, that God (Yahweh) may be all in all. (1 Corinthians 15:27-28)
Insight
: Insight Wed Dec 21, 2011 - 04:07:21
: bemark Wed Dec 21, 2011 - 02:13:04
: Insight Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 16:37:44
: bemark Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 01:23:19
Chapter 1
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. 3 Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.
Gen 1:1-3 (NKJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
John 1:1-5 (NKJV)
Good.
Earth = the natural creation revealing the 7 stages of spiritual development
Jesus Christ = the spiritual creation which is the fulfilment of the Man of God made in the image and after the likeness of the Elohim (angels)
Both Gen 1 and John 1 speak beautifully together once you understand Jesus is first-born of the Spirit. First man to be obedient unto the death and raised to glory not that he had the glory in person with God prior else it would not be inherited Glory but something else.
Insight
That's interesting about the seven stages of spiritual development could you please expand this.
: Insight Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 22:44:57
: cs80918 Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 22:43:04
: Insight Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 21:48:33
Stosh
Due to the size of your post and out of respect for the effort you have invested I will spend some time answering your thoughts.
While I am doing this would you mind providing the following request:
It appears you do not believe in orthodox Trinitarian teaching.
Would you mind giving me a simple definition of the Godhead.
Here is mine
"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
Godhead
1. God - Yahweh (with His Power (i.e. Holy Spirit)
2. Christ
Over
3. Man
4.Woman
This may allow me to better understand where you are coming from.
Insight
Is God the Holy Spirit?
How does God the father relate to the holy spirit?
Look up Luke 1:35 and tell me what the Holy Spirit is?
Insight
Insight have you ever felt the Holy Spirit come upon you and enter through you?Do you know what he feels like?
And also interesting about the seven stages about spiritual development in relationship to creation and could you please expand this
Maybe you could start a thread and we can discuss the most important parable in all the Bible.
Gen 1 - The foundation chapter upon which the whole Bible stands.
Insight
So its a yes or a no?
Even in Gen we have Spirit and word working together manifesting the Glory of God.
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist
Col 1:14-17 (KJV)
So Jesus coming forth from God as the word of God, speaking through the spirit of God.
Jesus wasn't made in a Image of any created thing.All things where made by him that includes angels
: Insight Wed Dec 21, 2011 - 04:07:21
Gen 1 - The foundation chapter upon which the whole Bible stands.
I think of it more like
Genesis 1 - the poem Moses decided to quote in the forward to the book he was writing.
: Insight Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 23:33:34
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 23:30:49
: cs80918 Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 22:43:04
Is God the Holy Spirit?
How does God the father relate to the holy spirit?
Yes. Roughly the same way the brain relates to the spinal cord.
This answer is deeper than first imagined for its understanding is in the mind, thought and action.
Beautiful.
It's nice when someone understands what you're talking about, so thanks for that.
: bemark Wed Dec 21, 2011 - 12:53:32
Jesus wasn't made in a Image of any created thing.
But when the right time came, God sent his Son, born of a woman, subject to the law.Whose image was he born in?
I believe his title is the Son of Man....
: Insight Wed Dec 21, 2011 - 16:20:32
: bemark Wed Dec 21, 2011 - 12:53:32
Jesus wasn't made in a Image of any created thing.
But when the right time came, God sent his Son, born of a woman, subject to the law.
Whose image was he born in?
I believe his title is the Son of Man....
Insight i was talking about before any created thing was made in heaven or earth, Jesus always was. He was flesh born through Mary by the impartation of the Holy spirit by the perfect will or government of God.The overseer.
: bemark Thu Dec 22, 2011 - 00:09:31
: Insight Wed Dec 21, 2011 - 16:20:32
: bemark Wed Dec 21, 2011 - 12:53:32
Jesus wasn't made in a Image of any created thing.
But when the right time came, God sent his Son, born of a woman, subject to the law.
Whose image was he born in?
I believe his title is the Son of Man....
Insight i was talking about before any created thing was made in heaven or earth, Jesus always was. He was flesh born through Mary by the impartation of the Holy spirit by the perfect will or government of God.The overseer.
You aptly forget Jesus was the Son of Mary and the conception involved her lineage. Jesus was the son of Adam, Abraham & David.
I don't think you get that his very beginning was in the womb of Mary.
Jesus was born of a sinner, born with sin's flesh, having death reigning in his body. You don't understand that when he died and tasted death he became unclean ( not a sinner ) but tainted by death and thus required cleansing.
How was Jesus cleansed of tasting death? –
that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.Now there were three ways a person became unclean?
1. Leprosy,
2. Issues - discharges from the body - i.e. an haemorrhage or running sore - related basically to the reproductive organs,
3. Contact with a dead body.(The three forms of uncleanness are listed together in Num.5:1-4.)
The instructions regarding these forms of defilement were very explicit:
"Command the children of Israel, that they put out of the camp every leper, and every one that hath an issue, and whosoever is defiled by the dead: Both male and female shall ye put out, without the camp shall ye put them; that they defile not their camps, in the midst whereof I dwell."Where did Christ die Bemark?
We have gone over this before insight and not my view or yours is going to change, but one thing I love and it is to dig deeper into his word and I love the fact that you have encouraged me to do so.
I am more interested in what you have to offer throughout scripture not relating to the trinity.Like the sandal thing.That was awesome and I am waiting for more to come from you.Thanks insight
: bemark Thu Dec 22, 2011 - 05:47:23
We have gone over this before insight and not my view or yours is going to change, but one thing I love and it is to dig deeper into his word and I love the fact that you have encouraged me to do so.
I am more interested in what you have to offer throughout scripture not relating to the trinity.Like the sandal thing.That was awesome and I am waiting for more to come from you.Thanks insight
Where did Jesus die Bemark?
Insight get to the point of where and why Jesus died at a certain place
I'm always hungry for fresh bread.
I am trying to lead you into the Scripture not just the passages and themes you find interesting but those which will assist in you knowledge leading to salvation.
We have established should a person come into contact with blood or something dead they became unclean.
1. Leprosy,
2. Issues - discharges from the body - i.e. an haemorrhage or running sore - related basically to the reproductive organs,
3. Contact with a dead body.
Jesus suffered from each of these and was crucified outside the camp.
For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp. Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach. (Hebrews 13:11-13)
If Jesus was required to be sacrificed outside the camp?
The question of why has been put to you, but are you willing to listen?
We shall see.
: Insight Thu Dec 22, 2011 - 05:58:35
I am trying to lead you into the Scripture not just the passages and themes you find interesting but those which will assist in you knowledge leading to salvation.
We have established should a person come into contact with blood or something dead they became unclean.
1. Leprosy,
2. Issues - discharges from the body - i.e. an haemorrhage or running sore - related basically to the reproductive organs,
3. Contact with a dead body.
Jesus suffered from each of these and was crucified outside the camp.
For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp. Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach. (Hebrews 13:11-13)
If Jesus was required to be sacrificed outside the camp?
The question of why has been put to you, but are you willing to listen?
We shall see.
First of all we must establish what must a man do to be saved.You honestly believe I am not ? a yes or no
The leper with leprosy in his forehead was required to cover his upper lip and cry out, "Unclean, unclean", as a warning to all who approached. The reason for the severity with which God regarded these three kinds of defilement was not simply medical, i.e., the fear of others contracting disease. So rigid were the laws regarding death, that even an open vessel in a tent where a man died was unclean, defiled. The reason for the severity of the regulations is seen in the fact that leprosy, issues and death all taught the divine abhorrence of sin, and its effect, death. It was for this reason that a man with any of these defilements was ostracised from the camp of Israel in which the holiness and righteousness of Yahweh were manifested in the sanctuary.
There are incidents in the life of the Master which blossom with meaning once the Laws of Uncleanness are understood. Consider the following:
1 Matt.18:1-4 - The leper - Jesus "put forth his hand and touched him". Why do you think that it is recorded specifically that Jesus touched the leper? In what position did such an act place Jesus in relation to the Mosaic Law? Imagine the astonishment of the priest when presented with a cleansed leper? There is obviously great point to the words of Jesus: "Go...shew thyself to the priest...for a testimony unto them." (Matt.8:4).
2. Matt.9:20-22 - The woman with an issue of blood - For twelve years the woman had suffered discomfort and separation from the Temple worship because of this issue. Matthew carefully recorded that the woman "touched the hem of his garment". What position did this place Jesus in regard to the Mosaic Law?
3. Matt.9:23-25 - The dead maid - Again the Inspired narrative recounts "he went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose." Ceremonial defilement was technically contracted by Jesus through his deliberate contact with the dead.
Maybe you will start to see how impossible it is for Jesus to be Yahweh who is pure and holy and cannot look upon sin let alone be tainted by death.
Insight
: Insight Thu Dec 22, 2011 - 06:05:26
The leper with leprosy in his forehead was required to cover his upper lip and cry out, "Unclean, unclean", as a warning to all who approached. The reason for the severity with which God regarded these three kinds of defilement was not simply medical, i.e., the fear of others contracting disease. So rigid were the laws regarding death, that even an open vessel in a tent where a man died was unclean, defiled. The reason for the severity of the regulations is seen in the fact that leprosy, issues and death all taught the divine abhorrence of sin, and its effect, death. It was for this reason that a man with any of these defilements was ostracised from the camp of Israel in which the holiness and righteousness of Yahweh were manifested in the sanctuary.
There are incidents in the life of the Master which blossom with meaning once the Laws of Uncleanness are understood. Consider the following:
1 Matt.18:1-4 - The leper - Jesus "put forth his hand and touched him". Why do you think that it is recorded specifically that Jesus touched the leper? In what position did such an act place Jesus in relation to the Mosaic Law? Imagine the astonishment of the priest when presented with a cleansed leper? There is obviously great point to the words of Jesus: "Go...shew thyself to the priest...for a testimony unto them." (Matt.8:4).
2. Matt.9:20-22 - The woman with an issue of blood - For twelve years the woman had suffered discomfort and separation from the Temple worship because of this issue. Matthew carefully recorded that the woman "touched the hem of his garment". What position did this place Jesus in regard to the Mosaic Law?
3. Matt.9:23-25 - The dead maid - Again the Inspired narrative recounts "he went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose." Ceremonial defilement was technically contracted by Jesus through his deliberate contact with the dead.
Maybe you will start to see how impossible it is for Jesus to be Yahweh who is pure and holy and cannot look upon sin let alone be tainted by death.
Insight
Jesus represented each of these in his own death...
Can you tell me how?
So Jesus demonstrated the Kingdom of God over the Kingdom of darkness.Its about spiritual authority the Good news.
Healing the sick casting out devils etc etc
He is and always was above the laws or should i say the legal right of Satan as prince of the air.
Light invades darkness not the other way round.You cannot see the spirit for the flesh
: bemark Thu Dec 22, 2011 - 06:14:26
So Jesus demonstrated the Kingdom of God over the Kingdom of darkness.Its about spiritual authority the Good news.
Healing the sick casting out devils etc etc
He is and always was above the laws or should i say the legal right of Satan as prince of the air.
Light invades darkness not the other way round.You cannot see the spirit for the flesh
Those reading this above post will be ::headscratch:: their heads thinking what does this have to do with the Lord Jesus touching the unclean and being treated as unclean in his death?
This is what I consider to be a drawback. You may feel intimidated by the study and rather than drawing closer to the record you feel the need to reinstate church doctrine that which you were taught as a child.
I understand.
: bemark Thu Dec 22, 2011 - 06:02:38
: Insight Thu Dec 22, 2011 - 05:58:35
I am trying to lead you into the Scripture not just the passages and themes you find interesting but those which will assist in you knowledge leading to salvation.
We have established should a person come into contact with blood or something dead they became unclean.
1. Leprosy,
2. Issues - discharges from the body - i.e. an haemorrhage or running sore - related basically to the reproductive organs,
3. Contact with a dead body.
Jesus suffered from each of these and was crucified outside the camp.
For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp. Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach. (Hebrews 13:11-13)
If Jesus was required to be sacrificed outside the camp?
The question of why has been put to you, but are you willing to listen?
We shall see.
First of all we must establish what must a man do to be saved.You honestly believe I am not ? a yes or no
How can you when clearly we are told...
For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. (1 Corinthians 11:29)
So far it is clear you do not understand (discern) the Lord's body - which is why we are having this little chat. ::smile::
41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, "I am the bread which came down from heaven." 42 And they said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, 'I have come down from heaven'?"
John 6:41-42 (NKJV)
I think most will be seeing scripture after scripture posted to back up Who Jesus is.God in flesh
And you never did answer the Question about your personal relationship that you have with the Holy Spirit.Give me something to hang onto here.
Who is the presence of God to you.Don't give me scripture Insight just tell me your relationship to his word and spirit.
I want to feel it from your soul
: bemark Thu Dec 22, 2011 - 06:27:44
41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, "I am the bread which came down from heaven." 42 And they said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, 'I have come down from heaven'?"
John 6:41-42 (NKJV)
I think most will be seeing scripture after scripture posted to back up Who Jesus is. God in flesh
If that is what you see before you look...what do you expect to see?
And you never did answer the Question about your personal relationship that you have with the Holy Spirit.Give me something to hang onto here.
Who is the presence of God to you. Don't give me scripture Insight just tell me your relationship to his word and spirit.
I visualised you saying this to Jesus Christ –
"Look Lord, I do really want to understand your relationship with the Father but do you mind putting it into your own words, you know leave out the Scripture
you really don't know him
1. Leprosy
2. Issues - discharges from the body - i.e. an haemorrhage or running sore - related basically to the reproductive organs,
3. Contact with a dead body.
Would anyone like to inform Bemark precisely which sacrifice was offered to cleanse the defiled person(s)? And how did this sacrifice relates to the Lord Jesus Christ?
: bemark Thu Dec 22, 2011 - 06:46:05
you really don't know him
You see Bemark, I expected you to say this before typing my previous response, because this is what the Pharisee's constantly said to Jesus Christ during his ministry.
They sought a sign, they laid claim to knowing God more than any other and they tested Jesus to see if these things were so.
Likewise they couldn't enter the Word of God and often found themselves floundering in their false teachings while Jesus would say "you do err not knowing the Scriptures" and "have ye not read" and so on...
It appears we have come to the same outcome.
You desire the "experience" without substance and you desire to know my experience so as to validate yours. The foundation is Bible Truth and not the warm and fuzzy feelings you seek.
When you desire to seek truth rather than a sign.
PM me anytime.
God Bless.
Insight
: Insight Thu Dec 22, 2011 - 06:55:56
: bemark Thu Dec 22, 2011 - 06:46:05
you really don't know him
You see Bemark, I expected you to say this before typing my previous response, because this is what the Pharisee's constantly said to Jesus Christ during his ministry.
They sought a sign, they laid claim to knowing God more than any other and they tested Jesus to see if these things were so.
Likewise they couldn't enter the Word of God and often found themselves floundering in their false teachings while Jesus would say "you do err not knowing the Scriptures" and "have ye not read" and so on...
It appears we have come to the same outcome.
You desire the "experience" without substance and you desire to know my experience so as to validate yours. The foundation is Bible Truth and not the warm and fuzzy feelings you seek.
When you desire to seek truth rather than a sign.
PM me anytime.
God Bless.
Insight
Its a simple question insight and a simple reply would have done.Nothing wicked in it but just a bubbling up of the Love affair that you have with him
On a personal note Benmark - I appreciate how you might enjoy the Bible and maybe you don't get that these Words we study are in fact the same words that Jesus calls
"eternal life" - so when you make the below statement:-
But one thing I love and it is to dig deeper into his word and I love the fact that you have encouraged me to do so.
My distancing myself emotionally from you is ( as the Lord often did) encouraging you to enter the Word you so love.
I am not important and never will be...but I love the Lord Jesus Christ and Yahweh Elohim with all my heart, mind and body though fail them daily.
I am more interested in what you have to offer throughout scripture not relating to the trinity. Like the sandal thing. That was awesome and I am waiting for more to come from you. Thanks insight
I perceive you need to understand the Lord's body and his sacrifice and what was truly accomplished; now I can speak to you about all manner of Spiritual types, antitypes, echoes and gems that you fill your mind – it is enough for now to better understand the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for herein is your life.
Though, like many Christians you are yet to acknowledge a need to discern the Lord's body...for why would you bother – he's God right?
13 But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in
Matt 23:12-13 (NKJV)
They did not enter the spirit of God Jesus and of coarse rejected the door that was before them.
What come's first the chicken or the egg.The Bible is a recorded account of peoples experiences with God written for us to give us a way based on truth that leads us to eternal life.
: bemark Thu Dec 22, 2011 - 07:19:19
13 But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in
Matt 23:12-13 (NKJV)
They did not enter the spirit of God Jesus and of coarse rejected the door that was before them.
What come's first the chicken or the egg.The Bible is a recorded account of peoples experiences with God written for us to give us a way based on truth that leads us to eternal life.
True...
And that same God arranged a sacrifice 1000's of years ago, which would remove (in symbol) the uncleanness from death, blood and leprosy.
But do you desire to know and understand that sacrifice, or the many lessons written there for your learning, what can I do?
There are 18 people reading this little study about Jesus being unclean due to death and blood; I wonder if any of them understand the principles hidden there?
They bring you closer to him in a very real and meaningful way.
Insight
.but I love the Lord Jesus Christ and Yahweh Elohim with all my heart, mind and body though fail them daily.
Yeah insight I get that and signing out.Peace be with you
: bemark Thu Dec 22, 2011 - 07:26:57
.but I love the Lord Jesus Christ and Yahweh Elohim with all my heart, mind and body though fail them daily.
Yeah insight I get that and signing out.Peace be with you
Yes peace.
If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
: Insight Thu Dec 22, 2011 - 06:47:02
1. Leprosy
2. Issues - discharges from the body - i.e. an haemorrhage or running sore - related basically to the reproductive organs,
3. Contact with a dead body.
Would anyone like to inform Bemark precisely which sacrifice was offered to cleanse the defiled person(s)? And how did this sacrifice relates to the Lord Jesus Christ?
Friendly advice... It is fine to try to lead someone towards discovering an answer on their own, but if they are not willing to go looking, it is better to give the answer than to leave things in limbo. Sometimes people don't have the time or inclination to go searching.
Oh, and I believe the sacrifice you're referring to is the Red Heifer. I will leave it to you to explain the significance.
Jarrod
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Sun Dec 25, 2011 - 11:36:04
: Insight Thu Dec 22, 2011 - 06:47:02
1. Leprosy
2. Issues - discharges from the body - i.e. an haemorrhage or running sore - related basically to the reproductive organs,
3. Contact with a dead body.
Would anyone like to inform Bemark precisely which sacrifice was offered to cleanse the defiled person(s)? And how did this sacrifice relates to the Lord Jesus Christ?
Friendly advice... It is fine to try to lead someone towards discovering an answer on their own, but if they are not willing to go looking, it is better to give the answer than to leave things in limbo. Sometimes people don't have the time or inclination to go searching.
Oh, and I believe the sacrifice you're referring to is the Red Heifer. I will leave it to you to explain the significance.
Jarrod
Correct.
Jarrod, your wisdom in these matters is an example for other less discipline disciples: :smile::
Anyone who enquires of the Red Heifer sacrifice will not find Jesus to be God but quite the opposite.
Until I return from holidays we shall leave it there.
Insight
I wonder if Bemark will return ::shrug:: and will he enjoy the spiritual lessons found within the Red Heifer?
Insight
: Thorwald Mon Sep 26, 2011 - 12:18:04
::shrug:: When we look at Rev chpt 4 & 5, we have a problem with our current understanding of the Trinity. The Christian ministry believes that it is 'The Father' sitting on the throne. Let us look at other scriptures;
1) The Son created all things, and it pleased The Father to let The Son do so.
2) The Son must reconcile His kingdom, before submitting Himself and His kingdom, unto The Father, so that God can be 'all-in-all'.
3) The Father (the INVISIBLE GOD) dwells in the light, that no man can enter. No man has seen The Father 'AT ANY TIME'.
4) Man has seen Christ sitting on the right hand of God.
5) Isaiah 44:6 identifies who OUR GOD, is.
6) Ephesians 4:6 and Rev 1:6 use the conjunction "AND" (it does not use the wording, "WHO IS...").
7) The Son was begotten before the world was (without mother). The Son as Christ, has a mother (As Son of Man, He is our 'brother').
8) Jesus stated, that He was looking forward to returning to the glory that He had, before the world was (The Lord God Almighty....the creator).
9) Revelation is the process of 'reconciliation by The Word', who is 'The Son'.
10) Christ states, "My Father and I are one."
Taking in to account the above, is it not true, that there is a difference between The Son as 'The Lord God Almighty' and The Son, as 'The Lamb' (the resurrected Son of Man)? Have we 'discarded' the Son, as The Lord God Almighty, and now believe, that The Son is 'locked in' as The Lamb, only?
I believe that The Lord's Prayer, Isaiah 44:6, and Rev chpt 4 and 5, refer to THE SON. This would mean, that there are 'four figures', and not 'three'.
Your thoughts, would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
In all these things you haven't exactly stated exactly how the Bible contradicts the Doctrine of the Trinity and who exactly is the fourth person in your quad-unity? And where exactly did you get the idea that the Son created all things.
(Is our understanding of the Trinity, correct?)
........... ::pondering::, mine is, but I can't speak for others..................
: Thorwald Mon Sep 26, 2011 - 12:18:04
::shrug:: When we look at Rev chpt 4 & 5, we have a problem with our current understanding of the Trinity. The Christian ministry believes that it is 'The Father' sitting on the throne. Let us look at other scriptures;
1) The Son created all things, and it pleased The Father to let The Son do so.
2) The Son must reconcile His kingdom, before submitting Himself and His kingdom, unto The Father, so that God can be 'all-in-all'.
3) The Father (the INVISIBLE GOD) dwells in the light, that no man can enter. No man has seen The Father 'AT ANY TIME'.
4) Man has seen Christ sitting on the right hand of God.
5) Isaiah 44:6 identifies who OUR GOD, is.
6) Ephesians 4:6 and Rev 1:6 use the conjunction "AND" (it does not use the wording, "WHO IS...").
7) The Son was begotten before the world was (without mother). The Son as Christ, has a mother (As Son of Man, He is our 'brother').
8) Jesus stated, that He was looking forward to returning to the glory that He had, before the world was (The Lord God Almighty....the creator).
9) Revelation is the process of 'reconciliation by The Word', who is 'The Son'.
10) Christ states, "My Father and I are one."
Taking in to account the above, is it not true, that there is a difference between The Son as 'The Lord God Almighty' and The Son, as 'The Lamb' (the resurrected Son of Man)? Have we 'discarded' the Son, as The Lord God Almighty, and now believe, that The Son is 'locked in' as The Lamb, only?
I believe that The Lord's Prayer, Isaiah 44:6, and Rev chpt 4 and 5, refer to THE SON. This would mean, that there are 'four figures', and not 'three'.
Your thoughts, would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
I am a son of God just as Jesus was son of God, same Father, same Spirit in us, same mind, same Christ, same everything. God came to Jesus by His Spirit and opened all of heaven to him, see Matt 3:16, and the same happened to Paul on the road to Damascus, and 120 in an upper room, and in Moses, and in Adam where he became like God Gen 3:22, and the same happens in us all who receive from God the same thing, even me. And all who do sit with Him in His throne, Rev 3:21.
Trinity? God is a Spirit, and He resides in His son, and His word is living in His son. And I am His son. Behold the kingdom of God is within you just as Jesus said it is in Luke 17:21.
Gary
: Insight Thu Dec 22, 2011 - 06:42:42
: bemark Thu Dec 22, 2011 - 06:27:44
41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, "I am the bread which came down from heaven." 42 And they said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, 'I have come down from heaven'?"
John 6:41-42 (NKJV)
I think most will be seeing scripture after scripture posted to back up Who Jesus is. God in flesh
If that is what you see before you look...what do you expect to see?
And you never did answer the Question about your personal relationship that you have with the Holy Spirit.Give me something to hang onto here.
Who is the presence of God to you. Don't give me scripture Insight just tell me your relationship to his word and spirit.
I visualised you saying this to Jesus Christ – "Look Lord, I do really want to understand your relationship with the Father but do you mind putting it into your own words, you know leave out the Scripture
: bemark Thu Dec 22, 2011 - 07:19:19
13 But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in
Matt 23:12-13 (NKJV)
They did not enter the spirit of God Jesus and of coarse rejected the door that was before them.
What come's first the chicken or the egg.The Bible is a recorded account of peoples experiences with God written for us to give us a way based on truth that leads us to eternal life.
Few who enter in and are as Jesus was.
: bemark Thu Dec 22, 2011 - 00:09:31
: Insight Wed Dec 21, 2011 - 16:20:32
: bemark Wed Dec 21, 2011 - 12:53:32
Jesus wasn't made in a Image of any created thing.
But when the right time came, God sent his Son, born of a woman, subject to the law.
Whose image was he born in?
I believe his title is the Son of Man....
Insight i was talking about before any created thing was made in heaven or earth, Jesus always was. He was flesh born through Mary by the impartation of the Holy spirit by the perfect will or government of God.The overseer.
Christ always was, Jesus didnt come along for a long time after and stayed only a short 33 years. it is Christ who was from the beginning and had His being in Adam, Adam was the first to become like God, Gen 3:22, not Jesus. Christ simply means to be anointed of God. Adam was first and all are who are anointed of Gods SPirit, who is Christ in you.
Gary
: bemark Thu Dec 22, 2011 - 06:14:26
So Jesus demonstrated the Kingdom of God over the Kingdom of darkness.Its about spiritual authority the Good news.
Healing the sick casting out devils etc etc
He is and always was above the laws or should i say the legal right of Satan as prince of the air.
Light invades darkness not the other way round.You cannot see the spirit for the flesh
And all who have in them that what Jesus had in him do the same things Jesus did. These same signs follow those who believe.
Gary
There is one Father God, One Word of God, One Spirit of God and all three are exactly the same because the Father is exactly as His Word who became flesh in Jesus the Christ and is Spirit.
KJV
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
KJV
The Father uses His Word (Jesus) to create all things. For he is the Stone, Law, Word, Rock, Rod of the Shepherd to keep the sheep in line for their own good.
Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
KJV
God spoke His Word and said "Let there be Light" and the Word being the Right hand of God, for God is Spirit created what the Father spoke.
Jesus is as much the Father as every man's word reveals and is equal to the man who adheres to them. He has a GOOD NAME
Here is Jesus(the Word in the old testament) Read very carefully so that you don't miss keys words.
Gen 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
Now have you ever seen WORDS come to you in a VISION? This is the Word of God who was manifested in the flesh to us. Jesus! Notice it says that the WORD OF THE LORD CAME, not the LORD, but the Word, in the beginning was the Word......
Now notice in verse 2 the spelling. It is not LORD, but Lord GOD. Abram is talking to Jesus the Word of God.
2 And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
7 And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.
8 And he said, Lord GOD, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?
KJV
Here are a few more examples of the Word coming to man in the OT:
1 Sam 15:10 Then came the word of the LORD unto Samuel, saying,
KJV
1 Kings 6:11 And the word of the LORD came to Solomon, saying,
KJV
Here is the Spirit of the LORD in the OT:
Judg 3:10 And the Spirit of the LORD came upon him, and he judged Israel, and went out to war: and the LORD delivered Chushan-rishathaim king of Mesopotamia into his hand; and his hand prevailed against Chushan-rishathaim.
KJV
Judg 15:14 And when he came unto Lehi, the Philistines shouted against him: and the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon him, and the cords that were upon his arms became as flax that was burnt with fire, and his bands loosed from off his hands.
KJV
2 Sam 23:2 The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue.
KJV
: Thorwald Mon Sep 26, 2011 - 12:18:04
::shrug:: When we look at Rev chpt 4 & 5, we have a problem with our current understanding of the Trinity. The Christian ministry believes that it is 'The Father' sitting on the throne. Let us look at other scriptures;
1) The Son created all things, and it pleased The Father to let The Son do so.
2) The Son must reconcile His kingdom, before submitting Himself and His kingdom, unto The Father, so that God can be 'all-in-all'.
3) The Father (the INVISIBLE GOD) dwells in the light, that no man can enter. No man has seen The Father 'AT ANY TIME'.
4) Man has seen Christ sitting on the right hand of God.
5) Isaiah 44:6 identifies who OUR GOD, is.
6) Ephesians 4:6 and Rev 1:6 use the conjunction "AND" (it does not use the wording, "WHO IS...").
7) The Son was begotten before the world was (without mother). The Son as Christ, has a mother (As Son of Man, He is our 'brother').
8) Jesus stated, that He was looking forward to returning to the glory that He had, before the world was (The Lord God Almighty....the creator).
9) Revelation is the process of 'reconciliation by The Word', who is 'The Son'.
10) Christ states, "My Father and I are one."
Taking in to account the above, is it not true, that there is a difference between The Son as 'The Lord God Almighty' and The Son, as 'The Lamb' (the resurrected Son of Man)? Have we 'discarded' the Son, as The Lord God Almighty, and now believe, that The Son is 'locked in' as The Lamb, only?
I believe that The Lord's Prayer, Isaiah 44:6, and Rev chpt 4 and 5, refer to THE SON. This would mean, that there are 'four figures', and not 'three'.
Your thoughts, would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahsbW_n6vPM
Jesus Christ is the Father. John 14:9 "He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father."
There is a trinity in all humans call the soul,body and spirit. In Jesus Christ the Soul, Body and Spirit is the Father,Son and Holy Spirit in Him. The Lord's Trinity is Divine Human. Our trinity is plain human. Many Christians do not want to believe this. They believe that God is in three persons, like god in tom,dick and harry. Three guys being a god. This a sin against the first Commandment. Jehovah God said you will not worship other gods. There none beside Me.
: SpiritualSon Fri May 25, 2012 - 09:55:32
Jesus Christ is the Father.
Modalism, plain and simple.
The angel speaking to Mary did not mention an eternal son, but mention that a Son will be born in this world, and He shall be the Sod of God.
Harry ::smile::
A trinity is the soul,body and spirit in a person. God is one Divine Person, because He has a Trinity in Him like us. The Soul of Jesus Christ is from the Father, not the mother. The Father is the Soul in Jesus. The Lord is also the Holy Spirit, because He is the Holy Word. The Word is Divine Truth. The Spirit of God is the Holy Word.
Harry
May I Help you All?
Michael A
: p.rehbein Sat Jan 14, 2012 - 11:12:36
(Is our understanding of the Trinity, correct?)
........... ::pondering::, mine is, but I can't speak for others..................
From the trinity in every man, then, who can fail to perceive the trinity in the Lord? In every person there is soul, body, and operation; so also in the Lord Jesus Christ , "for in the Lord dwells all the fullness of Divinity bodily," according to Paul (Col. 2:9); therefore in the Lord the trinity is Divine, but in us it is human. In this mystical notion that there are three Divine persons and yet one God, and that this God, although one, is nevertheless not one person. Everyone can see that reason has no part, but has been lulled to sleep, and still it compels the mouth to speak like a parrot. When reason is put to sleep what is speech from the mouth but non-sense? When the mouth speaks that which reason turns away from and dissents from, is not speech foolish? At this day human reason in respect to the Divine trinity, is bound like a man in prison, manacled and fettered. In the minds of men of the church the Divine trinity should shine like a lamp, since One God in His trinity and in the unity there is the All in all the sanctities of heaven and the church.
Harry
Here is the way I see the trinity of the Christian church. I see a god who has one body with three heads on it.A three headed god. One head is the father, the second head is the son, and third heard the holy spirit. This is the only way your three Divine persons can be one god. Do you really believe the anges are bowing down to a thing like that. How come we have one head, and your god has three. Are we not in the image and likeness of god?
Harry rofl
: SpiritualSon Thu Jun 07, 2012 - 19:38:51
Here is the why I see the trinity of the Christian church. I see a god who has one body with three heads on it.A three headed god. One head is the father, the second head is the son, and third heard the holy spirit. This is the only way your three Divine persons can be one god. Do you really believe the anges are bowing down to a thing like that. How come we have one head, and your god has three. Are we not in the image and likeness of god?
So-o-o....what church are you a member of, if not the Christian Church?
God is three persons in one.
: SpiritualSon Fri May 25, 2012 - 09:55:32
Jesus Christ is the Father. John 14:9 "He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father."
You do err, not knowing the Scriptures nor the Power of God.
Please allow me to re-mind you...
2 Corinthians 4:4
whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory
of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.
He (Christ Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.Colossians 1:14-16
Jesus Christ is THE IMAGE of God the Father, not the Father Himself.
Now if you will, please LISTEN to what the Word of God tells us about His Father:
In the Apostles Prayer:
OUR FATHER, who art in heaven, Holy Holy Holy is Your Name, Thy Kingdom Come,
Thy Will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive them who trespass against us. Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one, for THINE IS THE KINGDOM, forever and ever.
In Jesus Passionate prayer to our Father:
"..."
Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless
not My will, but Yours, be done.
: Lively Stone Thu Jun 07, 2012 - 20:22:49
: SpiritualSon Thu Jun 07, 2012 - 19:38:51
Here is the why I see the trinity of the Christian church. I see a god who has one body with three heads on it.A three headed god. One head is the father, the second head is the son, and third heard the holy spirit. This is the only way your three Divine persons can be one god. Do you really believe the anges are bowing down to a thing like that. How come we have one head, and your god has three. Are we not in the image and likeness of god?
So-o-o....what church are you a member of, if not the Christian Church?
God is three persons in one.
I am a Christian who worships and prays to one God, Jesus Christ. He is the Father,Son and Holy Spirit.
Harry
: RobWLarson Mon Nov 07, 2011 - 15:36:06
Mr. Insight sir. I will now deal with your biggest heresy yet. I must warn you however, that I will be using the Authorized Version of the English Bible to prove my claim that Jesus is indeed God in the flesh and nothing less. Now let us not forget sir, that scripture is not left up for our own private interpretation. It says what it says. And God is not the author of confusion. Okay then lets get going shall we.
I shall start by proving the Godhood of Jesus.
"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." 1st Timothy 3:15.
You spoke of things that need to be revealed. Well the great mystery is here revealed. Who was manifest in the flesh? Simple question I should think. And let's not forget there is no debating the issue. Paul said without controversy...So again I ask who was manifest in the flesh?
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.... He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not." John 1:1, 10-11
Again who is the Word in this passage? So he was in the beginning, he was with God, and what else was he? He came into the world, and according to this passage who made the world?
"And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death." Revelation 1:7-8
So again when did God die? We know that God was the only one who was in the beginning. "In the beginning God(Elohim, this is a plural)created the heaven and the earth." Genesis 1:1.
So who is Jesus? If he is not God then these scriptures lie. If these scriptures lie then you make God a liar. Is god a liar mr. Insight?
And the Word was with God. With God means in God. The Word means Divine Truth, and the Lord is Divine Truth. It was Jehovah the Father who descended as the Word (Divine Truth) at the same He came as Divine Love. It is written in John that all creation was made by Him,and with out Him was nothing made that was made. A second person was never sent as the Word. Jehovah said in Isaiah, His glory He will not give to another. So how can there be a Son of God at the time of creation?
Harry
These three, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, are three essentials of the one God, They make one as soul, body, and operation make one in Jesus Christ. In anyone thing there are both general and particular essentials, and these together make one essence. The general essentials of a person is their soul, body, and operation. That these constitute one essence,which can be seen from this-that one is from the other and for the sake of the other in an unbroken series. A person gets their beginning from the soul, which is the very essence of the semen; and the soul not only initiates, but also produces in their order all things that pertain to the body, and afterward all things that proceed from the soul and body together, which are called operations. From this production, therefore, of one from the other, and the consequent ingrafting and conjunction, it can be seen that these three are of one essence, and therefore they are called three essentials.
Harry ::smile::
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Sat Dec 17, 2011 - 04:00:49
: Stosh Fri Dec 16, 2011 - 12:46:33
For as quoted in your post,
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
You seem to have misquoted the verse. It actually says "and the Word WAS God." Not "with God." You've changed the whole meaning by adding a word that isn't there.
Jarrod
With God means in God. Good is in truth, and truth is in good. God is good and truth.
Swedenborg " True Christian Religion 85"
Jehovah God descended as Divine Truth, which is the Word, although He did not separate from it the Divine Good. There are two things that constitute the essence of God, the Divine Love and the Divine Wisdom, or what is the same, Divine Good and Divine Truth. That these two are the essence of God has been shown above. Moreoer these two are what are meant in the Word by the name "Jehovah God," "Jehovah" meaning the Divine Love or Divine Good, and "God" the Divine Wisdom or Divine Truth; and for this reason these two names are distinguished in the Word in various ways; sometimes the name "Jehovah" alone is used, and sometimes the name "God" alone-the name "Jehovah" when the Divine good is treated of, and the name "God" when the Divine truth is treated of; and the name "Jehovah God" when both are treated of. That Jehovah God descended as the Divine truth, which is the Word, is shown in John as follows: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word. All things were made by Him, and without Him was not any thing made that was made. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among, us (John 1:1, 3, 14). By "the Word" here the Divine truth is meant; because the Word, which is in the church, is Divine Truth itself, for it was dictated by Jehovah Himself; and what is dictated by Jehovah is nothing but Divine truth, and can be nothing else.
[2] But inasmuch as the Divine truth passed down through the heavens even to the world, it became adapted to angels in heaven and also to men in the world. For this reason there is in the Word a spiritual sense in which the Divine truth is seen in clear light, and a natural sense in which it is seen obscurely. Thus it is the Divine truth in our Word that is here meant in John. This is made still clearer by the fact that the Lord came into the world to fulfill all things of the Word; and this is why it is so often said that this or that was done to Him "that the Scripture might be fulfilled." Nor is anything but the Divine truth meant by "the Messiah" or "the Christ," or "the Son of man," or "the Holy Spirit the Comforter," which the Lord sent after His departure. In the chapter on the Sacred Scripture it will be shown that in His transfiguration before the three disciples on the mount (Matt. 17; Mark 9; Luke 9), and also before John in the Apocalypse (1:12-16), the Lord represented Himself as that Word.
[3] That the Lord in the world was the Divine Truth is evident from His own words: I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life (John 14:6); also from these words: We know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding that we may know the True; and we are in the True, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life (1 John 5:20); and still further by His being called "the Light," as in the following passages: There was the true light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world (John 1:4, 9). Jesus said, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, that darkness overtake you not. While ye have the light believe in the light, that ye may be sons of light (John 12:35, 36, 46). I am the light of the world (John 9:5). Simeon said, For mine eyes have seen Thy salvation, a light for revelation to the Gentiles (Luke 2:30-32). And this is the judgment, that light is come into the world; he that doeth the truth cometh to the light (John 3:19, 21); besides other places. "Light" means the Divine Truth.
: Lively Stone Thu Jun 07, 2012 - 20:22:49
: SpiritualSon Thu Jun 07, 2012 - 19:38:51
Here is the why I see the trinity of the Christian church. I see a god who has one body with three heads on it.A three headed god. One head is the father, the second head is the son, and third heard the holy spirit. This is the only way your three Divine persons can be one god. Do you really believe the anges are bowing down to a thing like that. How come we have one head, and your god has three. Are we not in the image and likeness of god?
So-o-o....what church are you a member of, if not the Christian Church?
God is three persons in one.
I am member of the New Church. The church was started after the death of Emanuel Swedenborg. I been reading his books since 1966.
Harry
Swedenborg was not a man of God, but a heretic. You need to stop reading his stuff. Read the Bible, and receive the truth of God.
: SpiritualSon Tue Jun 12, 2012 - 09:43:33
These three, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, are three essentials of the one God, They make one as soul, body, and operation make one in Jesus Christ. In anyone thing there are both general and particular essentials, and these together make one essence. The general essentials of a person is their soul, body, and operation. That these constitute one essence,which can be seen from this-that one is from the other and for the sake of the other in an unbroken series. A person gets their beginning from the soul, which is the very essence of the semen; and the soul not only initiates, but also produces in their order all things that pertain to the body, and afterward all things that proceed from the soul and body together, which are called operations. From this production, therefore, of one from the other, and the consequent ingrafting and conjunction, it can be seen that these three are of one essence, and therefore they are called three essentials.
Harry ::smile::
You can often identify error due the lack of inspired content within the post.
The above post is a point in mention.
: SpiritualSon Thu Jun 07, 2012 - 19:38:51
Here is the way I see the trinity of the Christian church. I see a god who has one body with three heads on it ...
Given that God is pure spirit, and does not have a body, this is an odd analogy indeed.
: SpiritualSon Thu Jun 07, 2012 - 19:38:51
This is the only way your three Divine persons can be one god. Do you really believe the anges are bowing down to a thing like that. How come we have one head, and your god has three. Are we not in the image and likeness of god?
You speak as though God were something that man conjured up, rather than an infinite, self-existing Being who exists on a level that is *far* beyond human understanding, but communicates with His creation and reveals Himself to them.
King David was aware of this: God can see without physical "eyes" and hear without physical "ears," as He is the Creator of both!
: Psalms 94:8-9
Consider, you senseless among the people; you fools, when will you be wise?
He who implanted the ear, won't he hear? He who formed the eye, won't he see?
: Michael A Fri Jun 08, 2012 - 04:08:20
: SpiritualSon Fri May 25, 2012 - 09:55:32
Jesus Christ is the Father. John 14:9 "He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father."
You do err, not knowing the Scriptures nor the Power of God.
Please allow me to re-mind you...
2 Corinthians 4:4
whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.
He (Christ Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Colossians 1:14-16
Jesus Christ is THE IMAGE of God the Father, not the Father Himself.
Now if you will, please LISTEN to what the Word of God tells us about His Father:
In the Apostles Prayer:
OUR FATHER, who art in heaven, Holy Holy Holy is Your Name, Thy Kingdom Come, Thy Will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive them who trespass against us. Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one, for THINE IS THE KINGDOM, forever and ever.
In Jesus Passionate prayer to our Father:
"..."Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.
: year2027 Thu Jul 12, 2012 - 17:50:32
Thinking God has no side of evil is where we go wrong.
Roy,
OK, you say this, but make no argument to back it up.
In contrast, the Bible proclaims a God who is all-good:
: Matthew 19:16-17
Behold, one came to him and said, "Good teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?" He said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but one, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
... and all-perfect:
: James 1:16-17
Don't be deceived, my beloved brothers. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom can be no variation, nor shadow of turning.
(Note: "shadow of turning" is usually understood to mean the slightest, infinitesimal change.) God cannot change because He can neither become greater nor less than what He already is.
: year2027 Thu Jul 12, 2012 - 17:50:32
God is more than we can imagine and less than we can imagine
In what way is He less than we can imagine? That would imply our imagination is greater than God ::whistle::
: year2027 Thu Jul 12, 2012 - 17:50:32
God is more than one and less than one
In what way is He less than one?
: year2027 Thu Jul 12, 2012 - 17:50:32
God is the more than the illusion I believe in and God is less than any illusion some one might believe in
My God is not an illusion. Sorry about yours.
: year2027 Thu Jul 12, 2012 - 17:50:32
God is the son of God and God is not the son of God
God [Jesus] is the son of God and God [the Father] is not the son of God ::lookaround::
: year2027 Thu Jul 12, 2012 - 17:50:32
why does there have be a right over wrong why can not both be right
because we are just learning stages
Because good cannot be evil and the truth cannot be a lie.
Furthermore, although it is true that we are just learning, God already knows, and His plan is unfolding before our eyes. He is not figuring out His own plan or learning it.