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For the thing which I greatly feared has come upon me, and that which I was afraid of has come unto me. Job 3:25

Many people have come to the conclusion that God causes us to go through hardships and affliction to teach and train us, to make us stronger or punish us

Job declared by his own words that he had been living in fear, so much fear that he described it as GREAT fear!

By his own words he we know that he was always afraid, living in fear continually that what eventually happened would happen

Fear belongs to Satan, it is the opposite of Faith

Being afraid is a state of being, its a negative emotion, it's the end result of fear,
an emotion, that moves us to do things we would not normally do

Bottom line fear is from Satan, not God.

God counted Job as a righteous man. That does not mean he was perfect, it means he was in good standing with God, having favor with God.

In the same way, we of the New Covenant are counted righteous unto God, yet we are not perfect.

Like Job we have areas of weakness and some of the things we embrace are not of God

Job being counted as righteous to God, did not stop Satan from recognizing the fear in Job's life which belonged to him.

This is why Satan believed he could cause Job to turn his back on God

To Satan the thing Job greatly feared and the thing that Job was afraid of was an indication of weakness which Satan thought he could exploit to Job's destruction

He was wrong

Your thoughts? ::tippinghat::

Daer Gospel, it appears that God initiated the test of Job, regardless of Job's fear. If we are God's workmanship (Ephesians 2:10) to be conformed into the very image of His Son, suffering is a very real part of that molding.

Job 1:8.  "And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?"

1 Peter 1:7  That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
 
In fact, Satan could not touch Job without God's permission, thus begins God's work in Job allowing Satan to be the tool used.

Job 1:9-10  Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? 10  Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
 
We read of Paul in Philippians 3:8. "Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ." Was fear the thing that brought this suffering?

Romans 8:17  ". .  joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."

Thanks for your response

I know that is the common understanding Bro larry2, however in that understanding there is quite a lot that is often overlooked

But I would suggest that

One very key point quite often overlooked is this....

Satan has access to God....the question is why?

The answer is

As the Accused and Condemned

Satan is The Accuser of the brethern

for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. Revelations 12:10

As the Accuser, before God's final judgment against him is rendered, before his sentence is imposed upon him, Satan has a legal right to come before God making accusations against all mankind, but..... he only does it one person at a time

The question is what can he accuse us of?

The answer is being like him, rebellious, disobedient and in violation of God's righteous standards

In other words anything we think, feel, say or do that is similar to anything in Satan's character and not of God, is fodder for him to use as an accusation against us to God,

in essence saying to God...

What about him, look at her, look at them, they're just like me, their guilty too so if I am condemned to eternal damnation, and you are Just in all your ways as you say  to be fair, to be just, if I am condemned, they should be too!

Now that leads to the the thing that Satan noticed about Job was fear. Fear does not belong to God, it belongs to Satan, he recognizes it because it's his.

Not only does he recognize it, he uses it to manipulate us, through our emotions, getting us to do things we would not do otherwise except for that thing which we embrace that is his....

Basically he reaches out and touches that which is his. Keep in mind Job openly and solemnly admitted to being in afraid and in the grip of fear.

His words, not mine

The reason Jesus could not sin and could not be moved to do anything outside of the Character of God is because nothing within Jesus belonged to Satan.

There was nothing in Jesus Satan could touch but that is not true for the rest of us.

No fear, guilt, shame, pride, deceit lust of the world, nothing in Jesus that Satan could touch and use against Him

Jesus was perfectly blameless...Job like the rest of us was not

John 14:30

"I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me;
NASB

"After this I will not be speaking much with you, for The Prince of the world is coming and he has nothing to use against me.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)

That is not true for the rest of us. We do have things in us that belong to Satan SO

Yes God does allow Satan to test us, but it is always based on a legality, in that way God is just, because in His Justice even Satan is judged justly while man is given the opportunity and the time to be justified in Christ.

In Job's case fear and being afraid caused him to act in a religious manner toward God, every day burning sacrifices for fear that his children were sinning.

His religious activity was motivated by fear and that is what Satan recognized and that was the basis on which he believed he could cause Job to forsake God.

Most important, that was the legal basis on which God allowed the testing.

The good news is God already knew Job would pass the testing of Satan

More sobering to understand is God knows whenever He brags on any of us people, Satan is coming to test them to try to prove Him wrong

That is the character of Satan and God knows it only too well

So God brags on Jesus

"You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.

Jesus learned obedience. Hebrews 5:8  Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered. 

Jesus was tempted. Matthew 4:1. Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

Hebrews 4:15  For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
 
Does it make sense that Jesus, in order to be the overcomer of sin must be tested? Does it align with the word of God that we too must follow and associate ourselves with His example?

No longer your own. 1 Corinthians 6:19  What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? We belong to God, and it does not appear what we shall be, but we know that we are never forsaken subject to Satan's accusations against us. Satan was whipped from before the foundation of the world, and that which he brings against us is by permission only, and then all things work together for good for us which believe.

You may have already read the following pamphlet discussing Christian sufferings, and their purpose, but if not here are the links.

Christian Sufferings Links Parts One & Two
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/christian-sufferings-part-one-of-two/msg5

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/christian-sufferings-part-two-of-two/

Blessings in Jesus' name.

Jesus learned obedience. Hebrews 5:8  Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered.  

Lets focus in on this verse...

Tell us

What did Jesus suffer? What does that actually mean to you?

One of the amazing things about God is that He knows us better than we know ourselves.  I believe when we are under trial and persecution in this world, our Lord knows exactly what we need to grow further and develop in us in the character of His son.  If we could stand away from the persecution a little bit and ask what is God trying to show me with this, it may help us undergo the trial easier.  As with Satan and his demons, God also knows how to use them as well.  Our feelings are not proper judges of the righteousness of God.  We are emotional and not all knowing.  God is everything perfect as is His son, our Lord and Savior.  Let us walk in faith knowing He will never forsake us instead of succumb to Satan by living in fear.  Gospel, you are correct in that faith is the polar opposite of fear and let's remember our home is waiting for us in heaven and is not here in this world.
Candy

Other than the obvious that Jesus took our place on that cross, Isaiah 53:3 says, "He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not."

Was this due to fear on Jesus' part? Hebrews 2:10. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Hebrews 2:17  Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Hebrews 2:18  For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Maybe you can throw light on what you're looking for.

: larry2  Thu Dec 01, 2011 - 15:36:34
Other than the obvious that Jesus took our place on that cross, Isaiah 53:3 says, "He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not."

Was this due to fear on Jesus' part? Hebrews 2:10. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Hebrews 2:17  Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Hebrews 2:18  For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Maybe you can throw light on what you're looking for.

As you probably realized when you were putting your response together, aside from the point where Jesus laid His Life down to face the Cross, there is really nothing we can say Jesus suffered

As humans, we make the mistake of equating our suffering with His, yet none of us will ever suffer the sin of the world being lain upon us

More than that, Jesus was without sin and so He suffered being made sin having the sin of the world lain upon Him

That is not something we can suffer for we already know sin

Point is Jesus suffering specifically relates to Him laying down His deity. That is suffering He endured.

The author of Life, tasting death.

He who Knew No Sin, taking our sin upon himself He Learned through Obedience what it felt like to be forsaken from Deity and that by choosing to subject himself to the expression of sin....evil

Again, that was only after the point of laying His life own life down in the Garden of Gethsemane.

For before that no man could touch Him to harm Him, no man could take His life

So he learned obedience to death is the point I am trying to make

Focusing on the suffering of Jesus is well intended but misdirected, because His suffering was for us...while ours is for our own selves, for we cannot even choose to take anyone's sin to the cross not even our own

Job's suffering was for Job and not from God but from Satan who was trying to prove God wrong about Job

Job suffered losing everything He had by affliction

Jesus chose to forsake everything He had in heaven by choice,

in obedience to the mission at hand

Redemption

to relieve us from the suffering we endure from Satan

Fear, guilt, shame, worldly lusts, greed, envy , jealousy none of which Jesus suffered having none of it within Him

Are you back on this point again, gospel?  Still don't believe that Jesus suffered in the same way we all do?  Even though the Bible clearly says the opposite (as larry has already pointed out)?

::frown::

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Thu Dec 01, 2011 - 16:43:27
Are you back on this point again, gospel?  Still don't believe that Jesus suffered in the same way we all do?  Even though the Bible clearly says the opposite (as larry has already pointed out)?

::frown::

larry2 pointed out how he believed Jesus suffered

I pointed out how Jesus suffering is not comparable to ours and it is wrong to presume it means the same thing

So how about you Jarrod

How do you think Jesus suffered

Did He live His life struggling and suffering with sexual lusts?

Did He live His life struggling and suffering with deceit and lying?

How about pride?

Did Jesus live His suffering from fear?

Was Jesus ever sick?

Was Jesus ever without food to eat?

Was He destitute and impoverished?

Was there something that Jesus wanted that He could not get?

Was there something that Jesus needed that He did not have?

Was there something that Jesus wanted to achieve that He could not accomplish?

Before He laid down His life

Did anyone ever hit Him, beat Him up or lay a finger on Him to do Him harm?

Tell us ...just how did Jesus suffer?

::pondering::

Jesus never had a sin nature like we do.  He chose to lay down His life for us.  Our life before Him is already death from our separation from God.  Our choice is to accept Him or not.  I believe that the suffering of Jesus was the deepest pain and agony that can be faced.  He suffered brutally physically and certainly emotionally being separated from the Father for the first time.  I don't believe any of us can conceive what this was like.  Think of all the sins of humanity, past, present, and future were bore by Him.  Not only the sins, but all the emotions and everything else that goes with sin.  Don't forget the three dark hours that the Father put all of it on Him.
Candy

: candy  Thu Dec 01, 2011 - 18:10:08
Jesus never had a sin nature like we do.  He chose to lay down His life for us.  Our life before Him is already death from our separation from God.  Our choice is to accept Him or not.  I believe that the suffering of Jesus was the deepest pain and agony that can be faced.  He suffered brutally physically and certainly emotionally being separated from the Father for the first time.  I don't believe any of us can conceive what this was like.  Think of all the sins of humanity, past, present, and future were bore by Him.  Not only the sins, but all the emotions and everything else that goes with sin.  Don't forget the three dark hours that the Father put all of it on Him.
Candy

Yes Candy and that's what I'm getting at and trying to establish

His suffering was much different than ours and in no way comparable to ours.

In addition none of His suffering began until He laid His life down, at the appointed time, in the Garden, allowing Himself to be arrested and subjected to treatment of evil men, who were in fact agents, acting on behalf of Satan

Before that sin, evil and the consequences of it could not touch Him or those He loved

Lazarus whom He loved died, Jesus raised Him

A storm came and sent the disciples into fear and panic, Jesus calmed it

People were hungry Jesus multiplied loaves and fishes

Sickness and death could not abide in His Presence

This means that Jesus did not even have to suffer the effects or consequences of sin and death, for they could not even abide in His Presence

C'mon JESUS!!!!  

::clappingoverhead::

Thank you Gospel.  Sin could not abide in His presence unless He permitted it.  Thank you Jesus for laying down your life for us and taking the punishment we deserved.    How can we even think we'd know what that is like.  He truly is the great I AM.
Candy

: gospel  Thu Dec 01, 2011 - 17:52:03

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Thu Dec 01, 2011 - 16:43:27
Are you back on this point again, gospel?  Still don't believe that Jesus suffered in the same way we all do?  Even though the Bible clearly says the opposite (as larry has already pointed out)?

::frown::

larry2 pointed out how he believed Jesus suffered

I pointed out how Jesus suffering is not comparable to ours and it is wrong to presume it means the same thing

So how about you Jarrod

How do you think Jesus suffered

Did He live His life struggling and suffering with sexual lusts?

Did He live His life struggling and suffering with deceit and lying?

How about pride?

Did Jesus live His suffering from fear?

Was Jesus ever sick?

Was Jesus ever without food to eat?

Was He destitute and impoverished?

Was there something that Jesus wanted that He could not get?

Was there something that Jesus needed that He did not have?

Was there something that Jesus wanted to achieve that He could not accomplish?

Before He laid down His life

Did anyone ever hit Him, beat Him up or lay a finger on Him to do Him harm?

Tell us ...just how did Jesus suffer?

::pondering::

You will not believe me.  Perhaps you will believe the good book:

Hey Jarrod,

Some people just like the sound of their own voice and keyboard as if it is always inspired...never mind the fact that actually it was probably tougher on Jesus than any one of us have ever or will ever face.

If I was Jesus the temptation to let a few people have that lightning bolt of Justice...

and the answer to Gospel's many questions is YES...Jesus was regularly tested, tempted and had things that He wanted but couldn't have.

Prostitutes weren't ugly. (that only is true in America) And yet all them prostitutes followed Jesus. Oh Im sure there was some temptation there.

turning stones into bread?

After one glass of wine I woulda smoked the planet and been done with the whole affair. What did I have to prove to a bunch of schmucks that cant get a clue to begin with? Is precisely what I would think of all these humans that I had created.

NO...Jesus had it much rougher and tougher than any of us can imagine and overcame all of that...and then some. 

A suffering is a thing allowed by a person or forced upon a person to bring about an experience.

By suffering, a person can either learn obedience or disobedience. Jesus allowed all that the Father had commanded in order to bring about the experience of salvation. He is the Captain (note the word captain that can be the same as skipper) of our Salvation.

Every temptation potentially bears a type of suffering. We allow (or it can be forced upon us) elements of a temptation unto disobedience.

God does not tempt anyone. Jesus could only be tempted by man or other agents. He did not allow elements of temptation while being tempted and nobody or agent could force elements of temptation on Him.

However, He suffered unto experiencing those things commanded Him by the Father. He did only the will of God, period. It is/was/will be by this kind of suffering that He captains our salvation.


The Thing I Greatly Feared - by Job who lived in the land of Uz

Job 3:25-26  For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me. I was not in safety, neither had I rest, neither was I quiet; yet trouble came.

What did the perfect and upright Job fear? He feared trouble.... he feared tribulation.... he'd rather have "slept" in the rest of the Lord (see Job 3:13) than experience tribulation and great tribulation.

Job personifies a perfect and upright saint who is alive to experience the tribulation and great tribulation of the last days. No saint wants such experience; indeed, every saint dreads that thought of that day even as Mark 13:20 declares: And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Scripture clearly gives that Job was an upright man. He could not have been upright without the faith of Christ imputing righteousness unto him. It is not recorded that he lost his faith (that imputes righteousness) given him by God. Rather, Scripture gives that Job had integrity all the way through despite two brutal encounters with loss of all things he had and with painful sores. If so, how is his fear of trouble (fear of tribulation) the opposite of faith?

Job 2:9-10 declares: Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die. But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

From above scripture, Job's integrity is unquestionable and unshaken. Job is of a strong mindset/worldview that if he receives good from God and can retain unto life, he can receive evil and overcome. One thing is established about Job: he is perfect (complete, whole) and unshakable in the faith that gave him righteousness.

Perfection of Christ does not exclude the temporary suffering of loss or the temporary experience of physical pain; Job was perfect, yet suffered he loss and was subsequently rewarded with twofold restoration.

Hey Jarrod,

Some people just like the sound of their own voice and keyboard as if it is always inspired...

Modified for FLAMING

never mind the fact that actually it was probably tougher on Jesus than any one of us have ever or will ever face.

There it is there and...
THAT my friend is the entire kit and caboodle of the point I was trying to make

Not only was the suffering of Jesus prophesied, it was purposeful in a way your and my suffering could never be and was in fact the key component of God's Plan for Redemption
So again...
Comparing Jesus suffering to our own is like comparing Jesus Baptism to our own which...sadly some of you do on a regular basis.

For the same point I am trying to make applies to baptism...

Jesus was in fact Baptized for an entirely different reason than other people and no amount of aught, sarcasm or snide remarks can change that fact.

The problem with our understanding is usually a result of not learning to understand the bible in the Light of Redemption and if we do not learn it from that perspective we will always find it difficult to understand certain key points such as why Jesus was baptized or the difference between His suffering and our own

If I was Jesus the temptation to let a few people have that lightning bolt of Justice.

That is why you are not, you have to resist and fight the inner temptation to hate, hurt and fight others because you like all of us have hatred and vengeance in our hearts....Jesus did not!

Nothing in Jesus belonged to Satan...NOTHING!


"I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me;
John 14:30
NASB

"After this I will not be speaking much with you, for The Prince of the world is coming and he has nothing to use against me.
John 14:30
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)

This literally means Jesus had no hatred at all within His Heart so what is amazing about Jesus is He was not feigning love, He literally loved those who hated and despised Him so much so, He died for them too!

For Jesus the meaning of "love your enemy" was not figurative but a literal reality in which He walked and lived

and the answer to Gospel's many questions is YES...Jesus was regularly tested, tempted and had things that He wanted but couldn't have.
Prostitutes weren't ugly. (that only is true in America) And yet all them prostitutes followed Jesus. Oh Im sure there was some temptation there.

Oh my God! You really stepped into it this time!

Are you actually asserting that Jesus harbored adulterous thoughts in His heart?

So you believe Jesus was literally like all of us, full of the things of this world fighting against the enticement of those evil things in His heart? WOW!  

Allow me to share a few things with you which make it absolutely plain and clear to you why that is totally and unequivocally incorrect


but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Matthew 5:28

Do you realize this statement of Jesus makes, you, me and every man who reads it guilty of adultery?

As tasteful as that may be for any man to accept

You have included Jesus among us!

Having read that verse
Are you saying Jesus was like any ol' preacher, preaching and pontificating against adultery while fighting it Himself?   ::headscratch::

For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.Matthew 15:19

Having read that
Are you asserting that Jesus, like all people had these things within His heart and like all people had to fight the inner urge to do these things?

but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. James 1:14

Having read that
Are you asserting Jesus had His own evil desires within Him but what made Him The Christ was unlike us He was able to say no those desires?

Hopefully you answered no to all of the above.

For dear friend...
The Lord we serve He is God, therefore Jesus being God cannot be tempted nor does He tempt!

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
James 1:13

turning stones into bread?

Satan was trying to tempt Jesus, but Jesus by virtue of being full of the Holy Spirit, The Spirit of God, Himself verily God there is nothing in Jesus that belongs to Satan.
What is being missed here is Satan was TRYING to tempt, ATTEMPTING to tempt Jesus which is different than Jesus Himself feeling tempted as if He is fighting against obeying Satan. Read the passage very carefully you can clearly see that in none of His responses to Satan was any indication that Jesus was struggling, sweating, wrestling or fighting to make the right choice.

His Character is Righteousness for He Himself is Righteousness, He is the antithesis of Satan and nothing in Him belongs to Satan or the World

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1 John 2:16

Jesus is God, nothing that belongs to the world belongs to Jesus

After one glass of wine I woulda smoked the planet and been done with the whole affair. What did I have to prove to a bunch of schmucks that cant get a clue to begin with? Is precisely what I would think of all these humans that I had created.

Clearly that's only an indication of a personal inner struggle of your own

NO...Jesus had it much rougher and tougher than any of us can imagine and overcame all of that...and then some.  

On that note I thank God I can close my response in perfect agreement with you, for no one but Jesus who knew not sin was made sin for all mankind and the sins of the world

And that my friend is the entire point I've been trying to make about His suffering compared to ours...

There is NO comparison!

: Glorious  Fri Dec 02, 2011 - 10:40:25
A suffering is a thing allowed by a person or forced upon a person to bring about an experience.

By suffering, a person can either learn obedience or disobedience. Jesus allowed all that the Father had commanded in order to bring about the experience of salvation. He is the Captain (note the word captain that can be the same as skipper) of our Salvation.

Every temptation potentially bears a type of suffering. We allow (or it can be forced upon us) elements of a temptation unto disobedience.

God does not tempt anyone. Jesus could only be tempted by man or other agents. He did not allow elements of temptation while being tempted and nobody or agent could force elements of temptation on Him.

However, He suffered unto experiencing those things commanded Him by the Father. He did only the will of God, period. It is/was/will be by this kind of suffering that He captains our salvation.


The Thing I Greatly Feared - by Job who lived in the land of Uz

Job 3:25-26  For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me. I was not in safety, neither had I rest, neither was I quiet; yet trouble came.

What did the perfect and upright Job fear? He feared trouble.... he feared tribulation.... he'd rather have "slept" in the rest of the Lord (see Job 3:13) than experience tribulation and great tribulation.

Job personifies a perfect and upright saint who is alive to experience the tribulation and great tribulation of the last days. No saint wants such experience; indeed, every saint dreads that thought of that day even as Mark 13:20 declares: And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Scripture clearly gives that Job was an upright man. He could not have been upright without the faith of Christ imputing righteousness unto him. It is not recorded that he lost his faith (that imputes righteousness) given him by God. Rather, Scripture gives that Job had integrity all the way through despite two brutal encounters with loss of all things he had and with painful sores. If so, how is his fear of trouble (fear of tribulation) the opposite of faith?

Job 2:9-10 declares: Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die. But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

From above scripture, Job's integrity is unquestionable and unshaken. Job is of a strong mindset/worldview that if he receives good from God and can retain unto life, he can receive evil and overcome. One thing is established about Job: he is perfect (complete, whole) and unshakable in the faith that gave him righteousness.

Perfection of Christ does not exclude the temporary suffering of loss or the temporary experience of physical pain; Job was perfect, yet suffered he loss and was subsequently rewarded with twofold restoration.

You've made some very, very insightful and astute remarks, especially about suffering...thanks!

I am both impressed and spiritually moved by some of your comments...hats off and manna to you! ::tippinghat::

Now to reiterate my point about Job's fear, all I'm trying to say is this,

Job though a righteous man, was still just a man, like ourselves, like every man, a believer, like every believer and as such NOT perfect in himself as was Our Lord Jesus

That said, the one chink in his armor so to speak, is the one Satan sought to exploit and that in itself was the basis on which Satan "believed", albeit wrongly, that he could cause Job to curse God

That was

Fear, dread of bad things that could possibly come

This is why when you read the story you see the first evil report occurred exactly in the manner Job had feared

Job 1:13 One day when Job's sons and daughters were feasting and drinking wine at the oldest brother's house,

Immediately upon leaving the presence of God, The timing by which Satan attacked Job was perfectly related to the area in which Job had feared

While his children were feasting, this is the very reason Job feared bad things and the very reason he offered up sacrifices everyday  ::reading::

Now lets look at this hypothetically for a sec...

If that had occurred to an unfaithful man, a man less righteous than Job, that man would have immediately cursed God.

Why?

...because a less faithful man would have felt betrayed by God, having prayed everyday, offering sacrifices to God everyday, worshiping God everyday and God still let this happen to me!

See the point I'm getting at?

Satan's first attempt was to try to make Job believe praying to Go, worshiping God offering up sacrifices to God was a waste of time

I'll leave it there for now

Thanks again for such a thoughtful response

Are you actually asserting that Jesus harbored adulterous thoughts in His heart?

So you believe Jesus was literally like all of us, full of the things of this world fighting against the enticement of those evil things in His heart? WOW!

You really don't seem to understand.  There is a marked difference between "harboring adulterous thoughts" and "I have a healthy libido."

Someday, I hope you come to understand that all enticement is predicated upon the normal appetites of the body, and not upon some perversion of mind.

Jarrod

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Fri Dec 02, 2011 - 14:06:44

Are you actually asserting that Jesus harbored adulterous thoughts in His heart?

So you believe Jesus was literally like all of us, full of the things of this world fighting against the enticement of those evil things in His heart? WOW!

You really don't seem to understand.  There is a marked difference between "harboring adulterous thoughts" and "I have a healthy libido."

Someday, I hope you come to understand that all enticement is predicated upon the normal appetites of the body, and not upon some perversion of mind.

Jarrod

Jarrod ...

The best thing I can say to you is that

In this case you should try to stick to scripture and do not allow yourself to fall into the trap of relying on human wisdom and philosophy

This is the wisdom of Proverbs 3:5,6

Do not lean on your own understanding

In ALL your ways acknowledge Him

So in this regard

The Word of God in the bible as spoken by Jesus is preeminent

and Jesus said

If we look upon a woman to lust after her my friend is an indication of the sin within us

Whether we act upon it or not,

And even if we do not act upon it

It should at least serve to keep us humble in regards to our humanity as a reminder that there are still things within our heart that do not belong to God

Which is why we need Jesus

: gospel  Fri Dec 02, 2011 - 14:20:57

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Fri Dec 02, 2011 - 14:06:44

Are you actually asserting that Jesus harbored adulterous thoughts in His heart?

So you believe Jesus was literally like all of us, full of the things of this world fighting against the enticement of those evil things in His heart? WOW!

You really don't seem to understand.  There is a marked difference between "harboring adulterous thoughts" and "I have a healthy libido."

Someday, I hope you come to understand that all enticement is predicated upon the normal appetites of the body, and not upon some perversion of mind.

Jarrod

Jarrod ...

The best thing I can say to you is that

In this case you should try to stick to scripture and do not allow yourself to fall into the trap of relying on human wisdom and philosophy

This is the wisdom of Proverbs 3:5,6

Do not lean on your own understanding

In ALL your ways acknowledge Him

So in this regard

The Word of God in the bible as spoken by Jesus is preeminent

and Jesus said

If we look upon a woman to lust after her my friend is an indication of the sin within us

Whether we act upon it or not,

And even if we do not act upon it

It should at least serve to keep us humble in regards to our humanity as a reminder that there are still things within our heart that do not belong to God

Which is why we need Jesus

Are you actually asserting that Jesus had no libido, and was not tempted sexually at any point?  That He was not "tempted in all ways like as we are?"

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Fri Dec 02, 2011 - 19:39:31

: gospel  Fri Dec 02, 2011 - 14:20:57

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Fri Dec 02, 2011 - 14:06:44

Are you actually asserting that Jesus harbored adulterous thoughts in His heart?

So you believe Jesus was literally like all of us, full of the things of this world fighting against the enticement of those evil things in His heart? WOW!

You really don't seem to understand.  There is a marked difference between "harboring adulterous thoughts" and "I have a healthy libido."

Someday, I hope you come to understand that all enticement is predicated upon the normal appetites of the body, and not upon some perversion of mind.

Jarrod

Jarrod ...

The best thing I can say to you is that

In this case you should try to stick to scripture and do not allow yourself to fall into the trap of relying on human wisdom and philosophy

This is the wisdom of Proverbs 3:5,6

Do not lean on your own understanding

In ALL your ways acknowledge Him

So in this regard

The Word of God in the bible as spoken by Jesus is preeminent

and Jesus said

If we look upon a woman to lust after her my friend is an indication of the sin within us

Whether we act upon it or not,

And even if we do not act upon it

It should at least serve to keep us humble in regards to our humanity as a reminder that there are still things within our heart that do not belong to God

Which is why we need Jesus

Are you actually asserting that Jesus had no libido, and was not tempted sexually at any point?  That He was not "tempted in all ways like as we are?"

I'm doing more than asserting and I am aghast that as knowledgeable and intellectually astute as I have come to believe you are that you would interpret Jesus being tempted in all points on such a novice like level of understanding as that!

After I have posted at least 6 scripture verses to support my understanding,the fact that you are attempting to reason with me totally on the basis of human wisdom is an indication that you are attempting to ignore the scriptures I have posted.

But even on the basis of reason, as I have stated on numerous occasions, to be tempted of Satan does not imply or indicate a weakness or presence of sin in Jesus, it simply means Satan TRIED to tempt Jesus, hence Jesus was tempted.

However you seem to be inferring that Jesus was tempted within Himself to obey Satan and that my friend is utter nonsense!

You seem to be indicating that Jesus was struggling with sin, fighting inner urges, fighting seduction and enticement and that dear friend is a total mis-characterization of Jesus and who He Is

Again I'll repost those verses and even add a few that support my claims in hopes that this time you will will reflect and meditate upon them and include your understanding of them as the basis of your ensuing response


Nothing in Jesus belonged to Satan...NOTHING!


"I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me;
John 14:30
NASB

"After this I will not be speaking much with you, for The Prince of the world is coming and he has nothing to use against me.
John 14:30
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)

This literally means Jesus had no hatred at all within His Heart so what is amazing about Jesus is He was not feigning love, He literally loved those who hated and despised Him so much so, He died for them too!

For Jesus the meaning of "love your enemy" was not figurative but a literal reality in which He walked and lived


but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Matthew 5:28

Do you realize that according to this verse your opinion makes Jesus guilty of adultery?

Having read that verse
Are you saying Jesus was like any ol' preacher, preaching and pontificating against adultery while fighting it Himself?   ::headscratch::

For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.Matthew 15:19

Having read that
Are you asserting that Jesus, like all people had these things within His heart and like all people had to fight the inner urge to do these things?


but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. James 1:14

Having read that
Are you asserting Jesus had His own evil desires within Him but what made Him The Christ was unlike us He was able to say no those desires?

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
James 1:13

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1 John 2:16

Jesus is God, nothing that belongs to the world belongs to Jesus

The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! John 1:29

Jesus was always the Lamb of God, He came to earth as the Lamb of God, He didn't pass a test to become the Lamb of God

He was Always Perfect, Always Flawless, Always without Spot Or Blemish, Pure undefiled Incorruptible, Knowing No sin, Blameless, Righteous, The Holy One of God...that is why He Came

Even the demons knew that much!


"What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?"Matthew 8:29

Even they knew Jesus came to fulfill an appointed time, culminating in an unfolding of God's Master Plan to destroy the Power of Satan and Redeem mankind back to Himself

Egads folks...Jesus was God's Word wrapped in flesh!

JESUS WAS FULL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, HAVING THE SPIRIT WITHOUT MEASURE

This means

His human nature was in
COMPLETE AND TOTAL SUBMISSION TO HIS DIVINE NATURE ACCORDING TO THE POWER THAT WORKED WITHIN HIM

That is our example and what we are to learn from Jesus

How to be FULL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT!

How to subjugate our libido and every aspect of our human nature bringing it into complete, total and perfect submission to the Will of God according to the Divine Nature that is working within us!

This is telling man to enjoy himself with a healthy libido. Jesus doesn't want men to be impotent.

Proverbs 5:15 Drink water from your own cistern,
  running water from your own well.
16 Should your springs overflow in the streets,
  your streams of water in the public squares?
17 Let them be yours alone,
  never to be shared with strangers.
18 May your fountain be blessed,
  and may you rejoice in the wife of your youth.

: Bitter Sweet  Sat Dec 03, 2011 - 05:21:20
This is telling man to enjoy himself with a healthy libido. Jesus doesn't want men to be impotent.

Proverbs 5:15 Drink water from your own cistern,
  running water from your own well.
16 Should your springs overflow in the streets,
  your streams of water in the public squares?
17 Let them be yours alone,
  never to be shared with strangers.
18 May your fountain be blessed,
  and may you rejoice in the wife of your youth.

With our wives Bittersweet

However a healthy libido focused towards the office secretary, the girl next door, Playboy magazine and internet porn

are adulterous

Despite that though my main point is

Jesus did not harbor or struggle against adultery in His Heart

I don't know about the majority of men but I know there are men that aren't tempted to go hide in the bathroom for a few minutes after seeing a naked woman. I don't think it's that big of a struggle for a man that loves his wife either.

My husband was raised with naked women on TV, there isn't the same censorship in Europe. When it isn't taboo to see a naked woman, then men aren't going to find them as erotic as they do when it is taboo.

When my husband reads the news from his country online, there are naked women all over the page, but he doesn't get excited from it. When he clicks on them he usually critiques their breasts, even if they are a size he is fond of, he doesn't go masturbate or want to have sex with me. He doesn't hide it from me or look at naked women in secret either.

Why can't it be natural for man to not get excited or commit adultery in his heart?

: Bitter Sweet  Sat Dec 03, 2011 - 13:47:06
I don't know about the majority of men but I know there are men that aren't tempted to go hide in the bathroom for a few minutes after seeing a naked woman. I don't think it's that big of a struggle for a man that loves his wife either.

My husband was raised with naked women on TV, there isn't the same censorship in Europe. When it isn't taboo to see a naked woman, then men aren't going to find them as erotic as they do when it is taboo.

When my husband reads the news from his country online, there are naked women all over the page, but he doesn't get excited from it. When he clicks on them he usually critiques their breasts, even if they are a size he is fond of, he doesn't go masturbate or want to have sex with me. He doesn't hide it from me or look at naked women in secret either.

Why can't it be natural for man to not get excited or commit adultery in his heart?

It can be.

I dearly love my wife.
I currently work with a woman who is attractive physically. All the guys at work stare at her while we are working and she notices it from time to time and becomes a bit self-conscious of it.  She asks me why everyone is staring and I tell her that it is because she is attractive and that just doesn't happen around here.

But in no way does she or I think of having an affair. She knows that I love my wife dearly. Just as I assume that she loves her husband dearly too.

Granted, there are likely a lot of guys on this job that already are sinning while staring at her work...but I ain't one of them. And I am working right next to her all day.

I have a feeling for Jesus it was something along the same lines. Where He probably noticed a physically attractive woman the concept of actually having a physical, romantic relationship with her was outside the box of what He truly desired.

A fleeting thought that left as soon as it came?
Who wouldn't?
But to obsess over it for hours? Not gonna happen for Jesus or me.

But I ain't Jesus neither. Scriptures prophesied that He was going to be one that was loved by women. And there were a lot of women following him and tending to their daily needs of cooking, clothes mending and etc.

: JohnDB  Sat Dec 03, 2011 - 14:35:01
It can be.

I dearly love my wife.
I currently work with a woman who is attractive physically. All the guys at work stare at her while we are working and she notices it from time to time and becomes a bit self-conscious of it.  She asks me why everyone is staring and I tell her that it is because she is attractive and that just doesn't happen around here.

But in no way does she or I think of having an affair. She knows that I love my wife dearly. Just as I assume that she loves her husband dearly too.

Granted, there are likely a lot of guys on this job that already are sinning while staring at her work...but I ain't one of them. And I am working right next to her all day.

Thanks John, of course men are going to know a woman is attractive but that doesn't mean they are interested in her beyond that. As far as the other guys go, sounds like they got some maturity issues.

I have a feeling for Jesus it was something along the same lines. Where He probably noticed a physically attractive woman the concept of actually having a physical, romantic relationship with her was outside the box of what He truly desired.

This reminds me of a story my husband once told me. He was out of town working with a group of people, he was at the apartment alone one day with one of his co-workers. She walked around the apartment naked in front of him trying to get his attention. He was more turned off by this and completely ignored her and made her feel stupid. He said she was attractive but when she did that, she didn't look attractive to him anymore.

But I ain't Jesus neither. Scriptures prophesied that He was going to be one that was loved by women. And there were a lot of women following him and tending to their daily needs of cooking, clothes mending and etc.

::smile::

Point is this....

Johndb is just a man, an ordinary natural born man

Jesus is the Word wrapped in flesh, God in the form of a man

The Lamb of God, Perfect in every way

Spotless and without blemish who knew not sin


So....If Johndb can do it without struggling

Why in the world would anyone presume Jesus, whom had the Spirit without measure would struggle with lust and libido issues?

And Bittersweet if your husband is an atheist as you say and can look upon women without lust in his heart

I'd be daggone if someone can even try to convince me that God the Son was tempted with lust or in anyway fighting a desire to look upon a woman with adultery in His heart

::backontopic::

So no Jesus being tempted and Jesus suffering does not mean the same thing for us as it did for Him ...in any way shape or form

Thanks Johndb for helping to make that point and agreeing with me though I think you may not have intended to

Manna to you just the same ::shrug::

   Even though God considered Job a perfect and upright man (from a human angle) he was no saint....yet. Job had a lesson to learn regarding his ' self-righteousness '.
ALL Humans suffer from it and it is a stumblingblock to God. We have to become submissive to His Word and not assume to be right in our own understanding.

Job was no exception and he had a long time of experience to come to his final state , or should I say until God brought him to recognize his despiccable state and lack of 'humility'.

Job 40v4, 'Behold I am vile...what shall I answer thee ? I will lay my hand upon my mouth.' Job finally 'shut up and left off arguing with his friends and with God once he became aware of the vanity of 'self-importance and God's view of it as 'filthy rags'.

Job 42v6,' Wherefore I abhore myself and repent in dust and ashes.'
We must learn to speak the Words of GOD and not our own !

: gospel  Sun Dec 04, 2011 - 00:31:19
Point is this....

Johndb is just a man, an ordinary natural born man

Jesus is the Word wrapped in flesh, God in the form of a man

The Lamb of God, Perfect in every way

Spotless and without blemish who knew not sin


So....If Johndb can do it without struggling

Why in the world would anyone presume Jesus, whom had the Spirit without measure would struggle with lust and libido issues?

And Bittersweet if your husband is an atheist as you say and can look upon women without lust in his heart

I'd be daggone if someone can even try to convince me that God the Son was tempted with lust or in anyway fighting a desire to look upon a woman with adultery in His heart

::backontopic::

So no Jesus being tempted and Jesus suffering does not mean the same thing for us as it did for Him ...in any way shape or form

Thanks Johndb for helping to make that point and agreeing with me though I think you may not have intended to

Manna to you just the same ::shrug::

OK..whatever.

rofl

Claim victory after proving nothing with what I said.

I am married and regularly perform my husbandly duties so much that it is almost "too much"...it is certainly more than enough. And with that I am so very very content.

BUT

When I was single and unmarried there was a non-stop barrage of temptation always afoot. There are certain types of Churches I knew better than to attend for the knowledge that I would most likely be sinning within two weeks with several different ladies of that congregation.  (and whether I knew the ladies or not)

Especially since I knew precisely the behaviors and attitudes that would indicate the propensity in some ladies for having a physical relationship.  I would know precisely how to present myself and behave and I would be sinning mightily before long.

Soooo...to say that Jesus wasn't tempted the same as you or I is absolutely ludicrous. Jesus was omniscient. He also had the power to "get away with it" in an unknown fashion. (walking on water does have it's advantages)

Jesus is one who intimately knows our weaknesses...because he faced them all himself.

Jesus absolutely overcame them all...in a spankingly wonderful fashion.

And where he may of had fleeting moments of temptation...even sexual temptation...the one temptation that he never really overcame well was the last one outlined in the forty days and nights in the wilderness. To fully reveal himself.

Jesus overcame temptation and sin...to be tempted is not a sin. And it says very plainly that Jesus was tempted...to make light of his real temptations is to deny a core tenant of the faith that we hold dear.

Jesus is Emmanuel...God with us...God as one of us...God going through all the same troubles and trials that we do today....including traffic jams and commuting to and from work and being tired and hungry and angry and frustrated and dealing with jerks who regularly miss the main plain points.

: gospel  Sat Dec 03, 2011 - 13:32:08
Despite that though my main point is

Jesus did not harbor or struggle against adultery in His Heart

We have a disconnect if you think that's what I'm saying.  I'm just saying, He had a body and it was functional.  And with a functional body comes the tugging of flesh on the mind, even if one chooses against it.

Jarrod

: JohnDB  Sun Dec 04, 2011 - 14:09:52

: gospel  Sun Dec 04, 2011 - 00:31:19
Point is this....

Johndb is just a man, an ordinary natural born man

Jesus is the Word wrapped in flesh, God in the form of a man

The Lamb of God, Perfect in every way

Spotless and without blemish who knew not sin


So....If Johndb can do it without struggling

Why in the world would anyone presume Jesus, whom had the Spirit without measure would struggle with lust and libido issues?

And Bittersweet if your husband is an atheist as you say and can look upon women without lust in his heart

I'd be daggone if someone can even try to convince me that God the Son was tempted with lust or in anyway fighting a desire to look upon a woman with adultery in His heart

::backontopic::

So no Jesus being tempted and Jesus suffering does not mean the same thing for us as it did for Him ...in any way shape or form

Thanks Johndb for helping to make that point and agreeing with me though I think you may not have intended to

Manna to you just the same ::shrug::

OK..whatever.

rofl

Claim victory after proving nothing with what I said.

I am married and regularly perform my husbandly duties so much that it is almost "too much"...it is certainly more than enough. And with that I am so very very content.

BUT

When I was single and unmarried there was a non-stop barrage of temptation always afoot. There are certain types of Churches I knew better than to attend for the knowledge that I would most likely be sinning within two weeks with several different ladies of that congregation.  (and whether I knew the ladies or not)

Especially since I knew precisely the behaviors and attitudes that would indicate the propensity in some ladies for having a physical relationship.  I would know precisely how to present myself and behave and I would be sinning mightily before long.

Soooo...to say that Jesus wasn't tempted the same as you or I is absolutely ludicrous. Jesus was omniscient. He also had the power to "get away with it" in an unknown fashion. (walking on water does have it's advantages)

Jesus is one who intimately knows our weaknesses...because he faced them all himself.

Jesus absolutely overcame them all...in a spankingly wonderful fashion.

And where he may of had fleeting moments of temptation...even sexual temptation...the one temptation that he never really overcame well was the last one outlined in the forty days and nights in the wilderness. To fully reveal himself.

Jesus overcame temptation and sin...to be tempted is not a sin. And it says very plainly that Jesus was tempted...to make light of his real temptations is to deny a core tenant of the faith that we hold dear.

Jesus is Emmanuel...God with us...God as one of us...God going through all the same troubles and trials that we do today....including traffic jams and commuting to and from work and being tired and hungry and angry and frustrated and dealing with jerks who regularly miss the main plain points.

John in your stringent desire to be right and your adamant zeal to disagree with me in any way possible...

In your response above you have said everything and absolutely nothing at the same time...

While human philosophy, human wisdom may suffices for a brief exchange of ideas so that we can understand each others opinions using our own words...bottom line in the end we must defer to scripture

Nothing in Jesus belonged to Satan...NOTHING!


"I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me;
John 14:30
NASB

"After this I will not be speaking much with you, for The Prince of the world is coming and he has nothing to use against me.
John 14:30
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)

This literally means Jesus had no hatred at all within His Heart so what is amazing about Jesus is He was not feigning love, He literally loved those who hated and despised Him so much so, He died for them too!

It may comfort you to think Jesus may have hated the Pharisees but "somehow" chose to not act upon it but in the end, no matter how you slice it or dice it, it is not scriptural

For Jesus the meaning of "love your enemy" was not figurative but a literal reality in which He walked and lived. It was not just something He preached for unlike you and I

God is Love, Jesus is Love, read 1 Corinthians 13

1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.  1 John 4:16

The Divine Nature trumped and ruled over His human nature, there was in fact NO HATRED in His Heart

Similarly Jesus did not harbor adulterous or lustful thoughts in His heart!


but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Matthew 5:28

Despite the fact that unlike you and I, Jesus remained single ( minded ) and never married....

unlike you and I

Jesus was not like every man so.... He was never guilty of any sin including lust of the flesh or lust of the eyes or any adulterous thoughts!

Jesus was  not like any ol' preacher, preaching and pontificating against adultery while fighting it Himself!   ::frown::

For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.Matthew 15:19

Jesus, unlike other people did not have these things within His heart and unlike other people did not have to fight the inner urge to do these things!

but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. James 1:14

Jesus did not have evil desires within Him, could not be seduced, enticed or tempted because unlike us nothing in Him belonged to Satan

The Lord we serve He is God, therefore Jesus being God cannot be tempted nor does He tempt!

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
James 1:13


Jesus Character is Righteousness for He Himself is Righteousness, He is the antithesis of Satan and nothing in Him belongs to Satan or the World

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1 John 2:16

Jesus is God, nothing that belongs to the world belongs to Jesus

::reading::

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Sun Dec 04, 2011 - 16:08:41

: gospel  Sat Dec 03, 2011 - 13:32:08
Despite that though my main point is

Jesus did not harbor or struggle against adultery in His Heart

We have a disconnect if you think that's what I'm saying.  I'm just saying, He had a body and it was functional.  And with a functional body comes the tugging of flesh on the mind, even if one chooses against it.

Jarrod

Jarrod you contradicted yourself in this very statement, using the phrase tugging of His flesh and mind, you're still saying Jesus struggled against inner urges and unholy, un God like desires...

Read the scriptures man!

The inner urges are themselves an indication of sin within, He said it not me!

I'm saying unequivocally Jesus was Pure, Holy and Righteous, not knowing
sin and  having no sin within Him
zero, nada, zilch NOTHING in Him belonged to the world or Satan Nothing!

One of you will have to prove the scriptures wrong in this regard and so far you've just offer personal opinion

Anyway
I don't even understand for the life of me why anyone would want to prove Jesus was anything less than God who came to destroy the works of the devil
....it is very puzzling indeed!  ::juggle::

Did he leave footprints when he walked or did he sort of hover over the ground?

: OldDad  Sun Dec 04, 2011 - 22:49:04
Did he leave footprints when he walked or did he sort of hover over the ground?

God can in the form of a man, key word FORM, bigger key word GOD!

By the way...

Just for the record

He walked on water, He walked through angry crowds who were trying to kill Him and He also transfigured

In addition He raised the dead, gave sight to the blind and healed lepers with a touch

Moreover Jesus spoke to the wind and the waves commanding them to cease and they obeyed

If that's not enough

He remained completely silent was His body was being beaten to shreds and then asked for forgiveness for those who did it

ONLY GOD could do any of those things

Do you have any idea what κενόω means?

: OldDad  Sun Dec 04, 2011 - 23:12:02
Do you have any idea what κενόω means?

Yep and because of the reasons I mentioned.....

I am more than certain it doesn't mean what some of you mistakenly seem to think it means!

God on earth, in the form of a man did things on earth that only God can do.... the number one thing

Redeeming man by destroying the works of the devil, Restoring His Kingdom here on Earth!

That's what God the Son did and that is what He came to do

When you read the Law and the Prophets you see

It was His very reason for coming so...

If you know anything at all

Ya gotta know He wasn't as empty as some of you mistakenly seem to think....He was Full of the Holy Spirit having the Spirit without measure, that means Jesus was brimming over with The Creative Power of Almighty God, His cup was literally running over with Holy Ghost Power and anointing.

Jesus was not like Buddha, just saying wise things about Life, sitting under a tree
...Jesus IS LIFE, Jesus is Light!

John 1:4,5 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.


(Also see John 14:6)

Making Himself of no reputation would be the more apt way of understanding the term κενόω

In other words, Being God, He didn't come to earth in the midst of a Royal Processional with trumpets blowing and a Legion of Angels at His Right and His Left, on a flying horse drawn chariot....

He'll do that type of entrance on His return...

However the first time, He came making Himself of no reputation

Therefore

Those who did not have spiritual eyes to see and spiritual ears to hear could not recognize Him as God

So yea, Jesus came as servant, not as King of heaven

yet

He was in fact King,

Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm."
John 18:36

To the dismay of the Pharisees

Pilate even put it on the Cross

19Pilate also wrote an inscription and put it on the cross. It was written, "JESUS THE NAZARENE, THE KING OF THE JEWS.

I imagine then with all the qualities of God Jesus retained when He became in the likeness of men, there was really no problem of aligning Himself to always please the Father, yet I continue to read in Hebrews 4:15, For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are.  Hebrews 2:18  For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

But we read in Philippians 2:6-7.  Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7  But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
 
John 8:29  And He that sent Me is with Me: the Father hath not left Me alone; for I do always those things that please Him.

Again, if Jesus did not become man as we are, why was there any reason at all for his suffering? Do you suppose that when Jesus affiliated Him with man, He was only half a man? No, Hebrews 5:8 says that though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered. Being totally God as you say, what could Jesus possible experience or learn that He did not already know?
 
John 8:28  Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

: gospel  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 01:14:17

Yep and because of the reasons I mentioned.....

I am more than certain it doesn't mean what some of you mistakenly seem to think it means!

God on earth, in the form of a man did things on earth that only God can do.... the number one thing

Redeeming man by destroying the works of the devil, Restoring His Kingdom here on Earth!

That's what God the Son did and that is what He came to do

When you read the Law and the Prophets you see

It was His very reason for coming so...

If you know anything at all

Ya gotta know He wasn't as empty as some of you mistakenly seem to think....He was Full of the Holy Spirit having the Spirit without measure, that means Jesus was brimming over with The Creative Power of Almighty God, His cup was literally running over with Holy Ghost Power and anointing.

Jesus was not like Buddha, just saying wise things about Life, sitting under a tree
...Jesus IS LIFE, Jesus is Light!

John 1:4,5 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.


(Also see John 14:6)

Making Himself of no reputation would be the more apt way of understanding the term κενόω

In other words, Being God, He didn't come to earth in the midst of a Royal Processional with trumpets blowing and a Legion of Angels at His Right and His Left, on a flying horse drawn chariot....

He'll do that type of entrance on His return...

However the first time, He came making Himself of no reputation

Therefore

Those who did not have spiritual eyes to see and spiritual ears to hear could not recognize Him as God

So yea, Jesus came as servant, not as King of heaven

yet

He was in fact King,

Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm."
John 18:36

To the dismay of the Pharisees

Pilate even put it on the Cross

19Pilate also wrote an inscription and put it on the cross. It was written, "JESUS THE NAZARENE, THE KING OF THE JEWS.

: OldDad  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 10:00:37
Ah, so you don't have any idea what κενόω means.

That explains a lot.

Will you please tell us what it means?  ::smile::

κενόω means to empty, or to make empty; to make void.  It's used of Jesus in Philippians 2:7, when he "gave up his divine privileges."

That was a lot easier to understand than I had expected after reading Gospels response.

He made himself nothing, very humbling.

: OldDad  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 10:11:04
κενόω means to empty, or to make empty; to make void.  It's used of Jesus in Philippians 2:7, when he "gave up his divine privileges."

Philippians 2:5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:

Though Jesus was in very nature God, Paul tells us to have His attitude, that even Jesus (as God) had the attitude that equality with God was something not to be grasped, but made Himself nothing...taking on the nature of a servent.

Jesus was still God...and always will be; regardless...our attitude should reflect along the line of Jesus...and His perfect attitude (humble...nothing)...

Then...in our nothing; God will become our everything...

: Thankfulldad  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 11:01:33

: OldDad  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 10:11:04
κενόω means to empty, or to make empty; to make void.  It's used of Jesus in Philippians 2:7, when he "gave up his divine privileges."

Philippians 2:5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:

Though Jesus was in very nature God, Paul tells us to have His attitude, that even Jesus (as God) had the attitude that equality with God was something not to be grasped, but made Himself nothing...taking on the nature of a servent.

Jesus was still God...and always will be; regardless...our attitude should reflect the along the line of Jesus...and His perfect attitude (humble...nothing)...

Then...in our nothing; God will become our everything...

Thankfuldad
Manna and Thank You very much for reiterating it so simply and to the point

: OldDad  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 10:11:04
κενόω means to empty, or to make empty; to make void.  It's used of Jesus in Philippians 2:7, when he "gave up his divine privileges."

Old Dad
That shows me you didn't understand a word of any scripture I posted...

First of all if Jesus gave up divine privileges His coming would be of no use to us because he'd be no more than Buddha, a good example!

The whole point of Christianity however is that Jesus is God come to earth!

If Jesus gave up divine privileges as you seem to believe there is quite a lot of things He would not have been able to do first and foremost fulfill the Law, Redeem Man and destroy the power of Satan

Lets list some of the other things here once again....

He walked on water,
He walked through angry crowds who were trying to kill Him and
He transfigured Himself
He raised the dead,
He gave sight to the blind
He healed lepers with a touch
He spoke to the wind and the waves commanding them to cease and they obeyed

Sounds like a lot of divine privileges to me....

Are you or anyone you know doing any of those things?

Of course not why?

Because although you have God's divine nature inside of you, your flesh is still in control because you are of the earth

Although Jesus had human nature inside of Him, His Divine Nature was in complete control why because He is of heaven

Why....Because Jesus was God!

Why in God's name anyone, especially any Christian would even debate this is deeply troubling and disconcerting to me


As I stated earlier and Thankful dad correctly pointed out,

Jesus humbled Himself, He did not empty Himself...that's silly to say the least

For instance as a King putting on the clothing of a peasant,walking and living among them!

Not making a reputation for himself, not going among the people announcing himself as king, with soldiers guarding him and servants tending to him having left by choice, the luxury and splendor of his castle and the preeminence of his throne, subjecting himself to the same lifestyle as the peasants yet...

....having a secret courier, In Jesus case, the Holy Spirit by whom He is still able to exercise all of His Kingly responsibilities

Because in fact HE IS STILL KING!

: Bitter Sweet  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 10:34:13
That was a lot easier to understand than I had expected after reading Gospels response.

He made himself nothing, very humbling.

From:King James Version Today

Thus κενόω does not merely mean "empty" but emptiness in regards to a thing (determined by context).  The NIV in Romans 4:14 translates κεκενωται as "no value" because the context determines that the emptiness is in regards to value.  

The NASB in 1 Corinthians 1:17 translates κεκενωται as "made void" because the context determines that the emptiness is in regards to effect.  

Likewise, the KJV translates εκενωσεν in Philippians 2:7 as "made... of no reputation" because the context determines that the emptiness is in regards to reputation:

   "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." (Philippians 2:7-8)

The point of Philippians 2:7-8 is that Jesus made himself empty in regards to reputation.  
Thus "made himself of no reputation" is precise.  The literal "emptied himself" can lead to abuse by people like Jehovah's Witnesses who do not believe that Jesus was God.

Read it for yourself at this link


http://www.kjvtoday.com/home/made-himself-of-no-reputation-or-emptied-himself-in-philippians-27 (http://www.kjvtoday.com/home/made-himself-of-no-reputation-or-emptied-himself-in-philippians-27)

: gospel  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 11:40:32

: Bitter Sweet  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 10:34:13
That was a lot easier to understand than I had expected after reading Gospels response.

He made himself nothing, very humbling.

From:King James Version Today

Thus κενόω does not merely mean "empty" but emptiness in regards to a thing (determined by context).  The NIV in Romans 4:14 translates κεκενωται as "no value" because the context determines that the emptiness is in regards to value.  

The NASB in 1 Corinthians 1:17 translates κεκενωται as "made void" because the context determines that the emptiness is in regards to effect.  

Likewise, the KJV translates εκενωσεν in Philippians 2:7 as "made... of no reputation" because the context determines that the emptiness is in regards to reputation:

   "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." (Philippians 2:7-8)

The point of Philippians 2:7-8 is that Jesus made himself empty in regards to reputation.  
Thus "made himself of no reputation" is precise.  The literal "emptied himself" can lead to abuse by people like Jehovah's Witnesses who do not believe that Jesus was God.

Read it for yourself at this link


http://www.kjvtoday.com/home/made-himself-of-no-reputation-or-emptied-himself-in-philippians-27 (http://www.kjvtoday.com/home/made-himself-of-no-reputation-or-emptied-himself-in-philippians-27)

I just didn't get it when you explained it with "no reputation" in your original response to the question.

Is this the same word used to describe the world in genesis when it was void? Because it was of no value then also.

Scripture makes clear that God was fully Deity and fully man. I don't know why you want to ignore that Christ was fully man. He wasn't just God wrapped in flesh. He had two natures that co-existed. He overcame the sin nature of his humanity through his Deity. Hence, why he is an intercessor for us and through Him we can overcome our sins and become Christ-like and one day perfected as He is.

No one has said that Jesus sinned though you wish to misconstrue every response that way. What is being said is that without the capacity to sin, Jesus could not be the intercessor that He is and make a choice to save us. It is extremely important that Jesus had the capacity to sin so he could choose not to do so, leading the way to show us all out of our sinful lives.

Without the choice then the sacrifice would be in vain. Love isn't love unless you have an option. The Father gave Jesus a choice. Jesus could have chosen to not die for us and we also have a choice to follow him, because all men, have choices and face the pull between fulfilling our own desires (sin) or doing the will of the Father.

Jesus overcame that pull of humanity of fufilling his own desires through the nature of His Deity, but that doesn't negate his manhood. If you need the scripture, my study suggestion is the 40 days in the wilderness. Jesus wasn't overcoming Satan so much as he was making his humanity conform to His Deity.

He was perfect and sinless, both as God and man. His human side having the capacity to sin negates none of that.

: Supplanter  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 11:59:12Without the choice then the sacrifice would be in vain. Love isn't love unless you have an option. The Father gave Jesus a choice. Jesus could have chosen to not die for us and we also have a choice to follow him, because all men, have choices and face the pull between fulfilling our own desires (sin) or doing the will of the Father.

Jesus was the Lamb slain before the foundations of this world; Jesus had no choice...He was obedient to God.  He came for one purpose...God's...and as God, He could not fail...and did not fail.  God, being Love had no option...

: Thankfulldad  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 12:09:52
Jesus had no choice...He was obedient to God. 

Obedience is, by definition, a choice.

: Jimmy  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 12:34:14

: Thankfulldad  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 12:09:52
Jesus had no choice...He was obedient to God. 

Obedience is, by definition, a choice.

Good point...regardless, His obedience was to Himself...wrap your logic around that one ::smile::

: Thankfulldad  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 12:36:18

: Jimmy  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 12:34:14

: Thankfulldad  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 12:09:52
Jesus had no choice...He was obedient to God. 

Obedience is, by definition, a choice.

Good point...regardless, His obedience was to Himself...wrap your logic around that one ::smile::

His obedience was to the Father, not Himself.

: Jimmy  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 12:48:38

: Thankfulldad  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 12:36:18

: Jimmy  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 12:34:14

: Thankfulldad  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 12:09:52
Jesus had no choice...He was obedient to God. 

Obedience is, by definition, a choice.

Good point...regardless, His obedience was to Himself...wrap your logic around that one ::smile::

His obedience was to the Father, not Himself.

And they were in agreement as One

Scripture makes clear that God was fully Deity and fully man. I don't know why you want to ignore that Christ was fully man. He wasn't just God wrapped in flesh. He had two natures that co-existed. He overcame the sin nature of his humanity through his Deity. Hence, why he is an intercessor for us and through Him we can overcome our sins and become Christ-like and one day perfected as He is.

Can't you see the inherent contradiction of your own statement? Seriously can't you see that what you just said is in complete agreement with me except for one thing...you're asserting Jesus had a sin nature and to that I say OH MY GOD!

You cannot be serious ...can you? Jesus... a sin nature? The Lamb of God, Perfect, Sinless, Flawless, without Spot or Blemish, Born from Heaven of the Holy Spirit, Perfectly Righteous and you're actually asserting Jesus had a sin nature ....WOW!

No one has said that Jesus sinned though you wish to misconstrue every response that way.

No but you're saying He could have sinned because He had sin within Him....

Then thinking you're saying something profound you say He overcame sin in Himself when the fact of the matter is according to Scripture...

HE KNEW NO SIN, HE DID NOT FEEL SIN'S PULL BECAUSE THERE WAS NONE IN HIM!

HE'S GOD, PURE HOLY AND RIGHTEOUS ( caps for emphasis )

What is being said is that without the capacity to sin, Jesus could not be the intercessor that He is and make a choice to save us. It is extremely important that Jesus had the capacity to sin so he could choose not to do so, leading the way to show us all out of our sinful lives.

That's kind of silly if you think about it...He had to have sin within Him so he could prove He is sinless?

The difference between what I am saying and you are saying is that I am saying

Jesus did not have to choose not to lie...why

JESUS IS TRUTH!

Jesus did not have to choose to Love...Why?

JESUS IS LOVE!

Jesus did not have to choose Righteousness...Why?

HE IS RIGHTEOUSNESS!

That is why He came Because He IS GOD...

Jesus did not come on some sort of test that He might fail, He came to do something that has been preordained from the foundation of the world!

This was God's Perfect Plan, not a test to see if God was stronger than Satan...geesh!

Where do you folks get this stuff?

Jesus entered the wilderness FULL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT,

He was already the Lamb of God, John announced it upon seeing Him

He came to earth as the Lamb of God, He came to earth to fulfill a mission, a plan not to be tested....

That's a human idea, its humanism in its most insidious form, applying humanistic traits to Jesus, neglecting to accept or understand the depth of the significance that Jesus is God, and the Divine Nature in Him overpower and subjugated His human nature

Hence the example is not in choosing, intellectually choosing between right and wrong

The example is as Paul stated BEING LED OF THE SPIRIT

SO.....

When we are Led by the Spirit we cannot do those things that are not pleasing to God

When we are Led by the Spirit, the things He will lead us to do will never violate any of God's Laws

When we are Led by the Spirit, Satan cannot tempt us into listening to his voice, he cannot tempt us through

Lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes or the pride of life

That is what Jesus exemplified for us

Choosing a path, A Way of Life, with Jesus as the Way where we are determined to be Led by the Spirit

For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1 John 2:16

You folks can argue until you are blue in the face about Jesus capacity to sin all you want however

The totality of Scripture says something completely different

Read 1 John 2:16 very carefully and slowly, meditate and reflect upon it and when you do,

I don't see how anyone could still respond trying to tell us they believe Jesus had within Himself the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life when Scripture makes it clear those things belong to the world and not to God!

Without the choice then the sacrifice would be in vain. Love isn't love unless you have an option. The Father gave Jesus a choice. Jesus could have chosen to not die for us and we also have a choice to follow him, because all men, have choices and face the pull between fulfilling our own desires (sin) or doing the will of the Father.

That's kind of silly when you really think about it

God comes to earth and dies for man and somehow if sin was not in Him, His shed blood doesn't count?

Think about it!

Jesus overcame that pull of humanity of fufilling his own desires through the nature of His Deity, but that doesn't negate his manhood. If you need the scripture, my study suggestion is the 40 days in the wilderness. Jesus wasn't overcoming Satan so much as he was making his humanity conform to His Deity.

Jesus was proving NOTHING IN HIM BELONGED TO SATAN, HE'S GOD, ALWAYS HAS BEEN ALWAYS WILL BE.

A normal everyday human being like you and I full of the spirit could overcome sin what in God's name do you think God in the form of man Full of God's Spirit could do?

Answer: Everything Jesus did, including the wilderness!

He was perfect and sinless, both as God and man. His human side having the capacity to sin negates none of that.

Read this very carefully and use a bit of intellectual reasoning

The capacity to sin means that Jesus was impure

If sin is within Jesus, you're saying Jesus was not pure

For some reason you think making the right choice is what made Him or any person pure...but you've got it backwards

The capacity to choose PERFECTLY EVERY TIME WITHOUT FAIL MEANS JESUS IS PURE

If Jesus is Pure He cannot choose imperfectly

The rest of us cannot choose our way into purity...it impossible

We are in fact impure from the get go!

: Thankfulldad  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 12:50:07

: Jimmy  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 12:48:38

: Thankfulldad  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 12:36:18

: Jimmy  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 12:34:14

: Thankfulldad  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 12:09:52
Jesus had no choice...He was obedient to God. 

Obedience is, by definition, a choice.

Good point...regardless, His obedience was to Himself...wrap your logic around that one ::smile::

His obedience was to the Father, not Himself.

And they were in agreement as One

Yes?  So?  Jesus never called Himself the Father.  There was probably a good reason for that.  He isn't the Father.  He is the Son.  They are one, but they are not the same beings.  But all of that is off the point of the thread.  Not really certain what the point was.

: Jimmy  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 13:01:41

: Thankfulldad  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 12:50:07

: Jimmy  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 12:48:38

: Thankfulldad  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 12:36:18

: Jimmy  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 12:34:14

: Thankfulldad  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 12:09:52
Jesus had no choice...He was obedient to God.  

Obedience is, by definition, a choice.

Good point...regardless, His obedience was to Himself...wrap your logic around that one ::smile::

His obedience was to the Father, not Himself.

And they were in agreement as One

Yes?  So?  Jesus never called Himself the Father.  There was probably a good reason for that.  He isn't the Father.  He is the Son.  They are one, but they are not the same beings.  But all of that is off the point of the thread.  Not really certain what the point was.

Wow!  ::frown::

But you're right in that the thread went far afield of the topic

: gospel  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 12:59:07

Scripture makes clear that God was fully Deity and fully man. I don't know why you want to ignore that Christ was fully man. He wasn't just God wrapped in flesh. He had two natures that co-existed. He overcame the sin nature of his humanity through his Deity. Hence, why he is an intercessor for us and through Him we can overcome our sins and become Christ-like and one day perfected as He is.

Can't you see the inherent contradiction of your own statement? Seriously can't you see that what you just said is in complete agreement with me except for one thing...you're asserting Jesus had a sin nature and to that I say OH MY GOD!

You cannot be serious ...can you? Jesus... a sin nature? The Lamb of God, Perfect, Sinless, Flawless, without Spot or Blemish, Born from Heaven of the Holy Spirit, Perfectly Righteous and you're actually asserting Jesus had a sin nature ....WOW!

No one has said that Jesus sinned though you wish to misconstrue every response that way.

No but you're saying He could have sinned because He had sin within Him....

Then thinking you're saying something profound you say He overcame sin in Himself when the fact of the matter is according to Scripture...

HE KNEW NO SIN, HE DID NOT FEEL SIN'S PULL BECAUSE THERE WAS NONE IN HIM!

HE'S GOD, PURE HOLY AND RIGHTEOUS ( caps for emphasis )

What is being said is that without the capacity to sin, Jesus could not be the intercessor that He is and make a choice to save us. It is extremely important that Jesus had the capacity to sin so he could choose not to do so, leading the way to show us all out of our sinful lives.

That's kind of silly if you think about it...He had to have sin within Him so he could prove He is sinless?

The difference between what I am saying and you are saying is that I am saying

Jesus did not have to choose not to lie...why

JESUS IS TRUTH!

Jesus did not have to choose to Love...Why?

JESUS IS LOVE!

Jesus did not have to choose Righteousness...Why?

HE IS RIGHTEOUSNESS!

That is why He came Because He IS GOD...

Jesus did not come on some sort of test that He might fail, He came to do something that has been preordained from the foundation of the world!

This was God's Perfect Plan, not a test to see if God was stronger than Satan...geesh!

Where do you folks get this stuff?

Jesus entered the wilderness FULL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT,

He was already the Lamb of God, John announced it upon seeing Him

He came to earth as the Lamb of God, He came to earth to fulfill a mission, a plan not to be tested....

That's a human idea, its humanism in its most insidious form, applying humanistic traits to Jesus, neglecting to accept or understand the depth of the significance that Jesus is God, and the Divine Nature in Him overpower and subjugated His human nature

Hence the example is not in choosing, intellectually choosing between right and wrong

The example is as Paul stated BEING LED OF THE SPIRIT

SO.....

When we are Led by the Spirit we cannot do those things that are not pleasing to God

When we are Led by the Spirit, the things He will lead us to do will never violate any of God's Laws

When we are Led by the Spirit, Satan cannot tempt us into listening to his voice, he cannot tempt us through

Lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes or the pride of life

That is what Jesus exemplified for us

Choosing a path, A Way of Life, with Jesus as the Way where we are determined to be Led by the Spirit

For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1 John 2:16

You folks can argue until you are blue in the face about Jesus capacity to sin all you want however

The totality of Scripture says something completely different

Read 1 John 2:16 very carefully and slowly, meditate and reflect upon it and when you do,

I don't see how anyone could still respond trying to tell us they believe Jesus had within Himself the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life when Scripture makes it clear those things belong to the world and not to God!

Without the choice then the sacrifice would be in vain. Love isn't love unless you have an option. The Father gave Jesus a choice. Jesus could have chosen to not die for us and we also have a choice to follow him, because all men, have choices and face the pull between fulfilling our own desires (sin) or doing the will of the Father.

That's kind of silly when you really think about it

God comes to earth and dies for man and somehow if sin was not in Him, His shed blood doesn't count?

Think about it!

Jesus overcame that pull of humanity of fufilling his own desires through the nature of His Deity, but that doesn't negate his manhood. If you need the scripture, my study suggestion is the 40 days in the wilderness. Jesus wasn't overcoming Satan so much as he was making his humanity conform to His Deity.

Jesus was proving NOTHING IN HIM BELONGED TO SATAN, HE'S GOD, ALWAYS HAS BEEN ALWAYS WILL BE.

A normal everyday human being like you and I full of the spirit could overcome sin what in God's name do you think God in the form of man Full of God's Spirit could do?

Answer: Everything Jesus did, including the wilderness!

He was perfect and sinless, both as God and man. His human side having the capacity to sin negates none of that.

Read this very carefully and use a bit of intellectual reasoning

The capacity to sin means that Jesus was impure

If sin is within Jesus, you're saying Jesus was not pure

For some reason you think making the right choice is what made Him or any person pure...but you've got it backwards

The capacity to choose PERFECTLY EVERY TIME WITHOUT FAIL MEANS JESUS IS PURE

If Jesus is Pure He cannot choose imperfectly

The rest of us cannot choose our way into purity...it impossible

We are in fact impure from the get go!

And again, you purposely misconstrue the responses given to you. It is very simple:

Sin does not equal the capacity thereof. Having a capacity to sin does not mean that you have "sin" withing you. You only have sin when you sin, but each man has a capacity to sin  that he can deny or obey.

Adam and Eve were perfect and sinless when created. They only became corrupted through their sin. Sin came through the act of using their free will to be disobedient. Jesus had the free will to submit to his carnal nature, but did not because he is also God and the nature of his deity perfected his humanity. You are missing a huge, monumental, thing about the very nature of Christ and what He has done for us if you can't accept that he did indeed have the same capacity that we all have and yet overcame. 

The incarnation is a mystery, but what we can clearly discern from scripture and the gospels was that God was fully Deity and fully man and had ALL the attributes of each within His being.   

: Supplanter  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 11:59:12
Scripture makes clear that God was fully Deity and fully man. I don't know why you want to ignore that Christ was fully man. He wasn't just God wrapped in flesh. He had two natures that co-existed. He overcame the sin nature of his humanity through his Deity. Hence, why he is an intercessor for us and through Him we can overcome our sins and become Christ-like and one day perfected as He is.

No one has said that Jesus sinned though you wish to misconstrue every response that way. What is being said is that without the capacity to sin, Jesus could not be the intercessor that He is and make a choice to save us. It is extremely important that Jesus had the capacity to sin so he could choose not to do so, leading the way to show us all out of our sinful lives.

Without the choice then the sacrifice would be in vain. Love isn't love unless you have an option. The Father gave Jesus a choice. Jesus could have chosen to not die for us and we also have a choice to follow him, because all men, have choices and face the pull between fulfilling our own desires (sin) or doing the will of the Father.

Jesus overcame that pull of humanity of fufilling his own desires through the nature of His Deity, but that doesn't negate his manhood. If you need the scripture, my study suggestion is the 40 days in the wilderness. Jesus wasn't overcoming Satan so much as he was making his humanity conform to His Deity.

He was perfect and sinless, both as God and man. His human side having the capacity to sin negates none of that.

Best post on this thread. A hearty amen.

Yes Old Dad, any questions now as to why I married this wonderful woman?

And again, you purposely misconstrue the responses given to you. It is very simple:

Sin does not equal the capacity thereof. Having a capacity to sin does not mean that you have "sin" withing you. You only have sin when you sin, but each man has a capacity to sin  that he can deny or obey.

Please take note: I am supplying scripture with just about every post yet many of the responses go on to talk in terms of man made doctrines, human wisdom and opinions.

And again you are showing you don't even realize that what you are asserting is inherently contradictory

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 1 Peter 1:23

Jesus came to earth as the Word made Flesh, The Living Word, God!

Incorruptible!

Acts of Sin is only possible when one has the capacity to do so, that capacity is called the Nature of Sin

Acts of sin are the result of impurity, the nature of sin.

So an impure heart, impure motives, impure desires are part of the sin nature

More specifically the word sin specifically means, falling short, missing the mark

The mark, the bullseye is perfection!

In the case of this discussion the mark is God's Holiness!

The capacity to sin means one is inherently able to be less than, act less than, speak less than, function less than The Perfection of God

That said, I will not insult you by citing the number of times that Jesus Himself stated EVERYTHING HE DID AND SAID was in PERFECT AGREEMENT WITH GOD

What made it possible for Jesus to state this Truth is because

JESUS IS GOD, JESUS IS PERFECT, THE HOLY LAMB OF GOD...PERFECT IN EVERY WAY, NOT MISSING THE MARK IN ANYWAY, having nothing corruptible within Himself!

He didn't become God proving He could be Perfect He was Already Perfect!
He came Perfect there was no CAPACITY OR POSSIBILITY OF HIM BEING ANY LESS THAN WHOM HE IS .....GOD, PERFECTLY!

Adam and Eve were perfect and sinless when created.

Wrong!

Here we go again, they were not perfect, they were innocent

TWO DIFFERENT THINGS ENTIRELY!

Children are born INNOCENT not perfect

They only became corrupted through their sin. Sin came through the act of using their free will to be disobedient.

They had the capacity to be corrupted because they were made out of the earth
however Jesus came from heaven

Two different things

The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1 Corinthians 15:47

Jesus had the free will to submit to his carnal nature, but did not because he is also God and the nature of his deity perfected his humanity. You are missing a huge, monumental, thing about the very nature of Christ and what He has done for us if you can't accept that he did indeed have the same capacity that we all have and yet overcame.

You are over estimating human will as if God's own Will is not Sovereign

Jesus was FULLY SUBMITTED TO GOD'S SOVEREIGN WILL, His will, was The Will of the Father

DIVINITY TRUMPS HUMANITY everytime!

The incarnation is a mystery, but what we can clearly discern from scripture and the gospels was that God was fully Deity and fully man and had ALL the attributes of each within His being.  

DIVINITY TRUMPS HUMANITY everytime!

I repeat if you, me or anyone would allow ourselves to become Full of the Holy Spirit to the point where we are PERFECTLY AND COMPLETELY LED by the Holy Spirit we would not fall short in any area of our life

HOWEVER...

It is impossible for any human being to be PERFECTLY AND COMPLETELY LED by the Holy Spirit because within us is imperfection, within us is the capacity for being corrupted, within us we are fighting lust of the eyes, of the flesh and the pride of life....even right now as we are posting, a lot of this is nothing but the pride of life...It's human nature, its the sin nature, its what we are accustomed to and accept as normal

What you have to come to understand is that
JESUS DID NOT HAVE THE PRIDE OF LIFE, THE LUST OF THE FLESH OR THE EYES WITHIN HIMSELF

Jesus was PERFECTLY AND COMPLETELY LED by the Holy Spirit because

HE WAS PERFECT

THAT IS WHY HE CAME,
TO DO A JOB PERFECTLY,
TO FULFILL GOD'S PLAN PERFECTLY,
TO FULFILL THE SCRIPTURE PERFECTLY
TO PERFECTLY FULFILL THE MISSION GOD HAS SPELLED OUT IN HIS WORD
::reading::

: OldDad  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 13:25:50

: Supplanter  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 11:59:12
Scripture makes clear that God was fully Deity and fully man. I don't know why you want to ignore that Christ was fully man. He wasn't just God wrapped in flesh. He had two natures that co-existed. He overcame the sin nature of his humanity through his Deity. Hence, why he is an intercessor for us and through Him we can overcome our sins and become Christ-like and one day perfected as He is.

No one has said that Jesus sinned though you wish to misconstrue every response that way. What is being said is that without the capacity to sin, Jesus could not be the intercessor that He is and make a choice to save us. It is extremely important that Jesus had the capacity to sin so he could choose not to do so, leading the way to show us all out of our sinful lives.

Without the choice then the sacrifice would be in vain. Love isn't love unless you have an option. The Father gave Jesus a choice. Jesus could have chosen to not die for us and we also have a choice to follow him, because all men, have choices and face the pull between fulfilling our own desires (sin) or doing the will of the Father.

Jesus overcame that pull of humanity of fufilling his own desires through the nature of His Deity, but that doesn't negate his manhood. If you need the scripture, my study suggestion is the 40 days in the wilderness. Jesus wasn't overcoming Satan so much as he was making his humanity conform to His Deity.

He was perfect and sinless, both as God and man. His human side having the capacity to sin negates none of that.

Best post on this thread. A hearty amen.

Unfortunately though as you appeal to the pride of life within her... her posts like yours and John's are incorrect

Jesus is God, Eternally Perfect, Eternally Pure, Eternally Holy, Eternally Flawless, Eternally Righteous

God Cannot be tempted nor does He tempt

God Cannot lie

God Cannot be unjust

God Cannot be unfaithful

CANNOT MEANS NO CAPACITY, IMPOSSIBLE!

I understand how JWs, Jews and Muslims are confused in these matters

But All Protestant Christians should know these as Truth unequivocally

Unbelievable to me that someone would even argue

Jesus could have lied if he wanted to .... ::giggle::

"If he wanted to" means if he "desired"

Desire means lust,

To have the capacity to lie means the lust of the world was within Him as it is within us ,

As if the desire to deceive, Satan's nature was in Jesus

When Jesus is Truth  ::frown::

You folks couldn't be more wrong!

I'm certain you don't know enough about my character to judge me as prideful.

Secondly, a perfect God made an imperfect creation? How is that possible?

LOL - even after being gone for 8 months, some things never change.  Like gospel twisting scriptures beyond recognition and insisting that the scripture does not say what it clearly says.  

"For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin..."  Sounds simple doesn't it?  But wait until gospel writes another book length post declaring what it can't possibly mean exactly what the Bible says.

: Supplanter  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 14:14:55
I'm certain you don't know enough about my character to judge me as prideful.

Secondly, a perfect God made an imperfect creation? How is that possible?

Wasn't intended as a judgment or insult

All human beings, and I am afraid to say even you, even me....being human

have the pride of life

Even the manna given in this forum appeals to the pride of life

It is not a judgment, apologies if you think I was being rude

However

Lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh and the pride of life are in the world and all humans in the world have to deal with them

Point is Jesus did not

None of that was in Jesus

: OldDad  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 14:17:36
LOL - even after being gone for 8 months, some things never change.  Like gospel twisting scriptures beyond recognition and insisting that the scripture does not say what it clearly says.  

"For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin..."  Sounds simple doesn't it?  But wait until gospel writes another book length post declaring what it can't possibly mean exactly what the Bible says.

I am sorry and it is unfortunate that you would camp out on your misunderstanding of one verse

And not take into account the totality of scripture

Try camping out on this one

GOD CANNOT BE TEMPTED - James 1:13

After you camp out there open your bible and read the other verses I have cited throughout this thread

Ignore my words but please read God's

Reflect on 1 John 2:16

Reflect on Jesus the Lamb of God and what that really means

Reflect on Jesus as the Word made flesh,

Reflect on 1 Peter 1:23 the word is incorruptible

Reflect on Nehemiah 2:16 God cannot lie

Reflect on John 14:6 Jesus is THE Truth

Please Ignore what I say, I beseech you but please read the Word of God in it's totality
 
And when you respond respond with scripture

As to that verse you cited again

Jesus allowing ( suffering ) Satan to tempt Him is not an indication of weakness or sin in Jesus

He allowed Satan to try to tempt Him

He was tempted does not mean He wanted to do what Satan and said but chose not do

It means Satan tempted Him to do something, it doesn't mean Jesus was tempted within Himself like a common man such as you and I

But above all don't get mad at me because I understand something you do not

: gospel  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 14:31:08

But above all don't get mad at me because I understand something you do not

rofl  Right on cue...

: gospel  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 14:20:55

: Supplanter  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 14:14:55
I'm certain you don't know enough about my character to judge me as prideful.

Secondly, a perfect God made an imperfect creation? How is that possible?

Wasn't intended as a judgment or insult

All human beings, and I am afraid to say even you, even me....being human

have the pride of life

Even the manna given in this forum appeals to the pride of life

It is not a judgment, apologies if you think I was being rude

However

Lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh and the pride of life are in the world and all humans in the world have to deal with them

Point is Jesus did not

None of that was in Jesus

Apology accepted. Yes, we all do have the pride of life. No getting away from that.

: OldDad  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 14:43:55

: gospel  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 14:31:08

But above all don't get mad at me because I understand something you do not

rofl  Right on cue...

::smile:: Ok now trying picking up camp, packing up your tent and move on toward the promised land of scripture

Reflect on some of those other verses

: OldDad  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 13:25:50

: Supplanter  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 11:59:12
Scripture makes clear that God was fully Deity and fully man. I don't know why you want to ignore that Christ was fully man. He wasn't just God wrapped in flesh. He had two natures that co-existed. He overcame the sin nature of his humanity through his Deity. Hence, why he is an intercessor for us and through Him we can overcome our sins and become Christ-like and one day perfected as He is.

No one has said that Jesus sinned though you wish to misconstrue every response that way. What is being said is that without the capacity to sin, Jesus could not be the intercessor that He is and make a choice to save us. It is extremely important that Jesus had the capacity to sin so he could choose not to do so, leading the way to show us all out of our sinful lives.

Without the choice then the sacrifice would be in vain. Love isn't love unless you have an option. The Father gave Jesus a choice. Jesus could have chosen to not die for us and we also have a choice to follow him, because all men, have choices and face the pull between fulfilling our own desires (sin) or doing the will of the Father.

Jesus overcame that pull of humanity of fufilling his own desires through the nature of His Deity, but that doesn't negate his manhood. If you need the scripture, my study suggestion is the 40 days in the wilderness. Jesus wasn't overcoming Satan so much as he was making his humanity conform to His Deity.

He was perfect and sinless, both as God and man. His human side having the capacity to sin negates none of that.

Best post on this thread. A hearty amen.

Thanks. I appreciate that. And as for being away from here for 8 months . . . . .  ."there is nothing new under the sun"

Well Adam and Eve had no sin in them as well but the Devil tempted them in the (Garden).They had nothing in them at that point.Sin entered in through Adam

Now in the (wilderness) Jesus was tempted for 40 days and spent time with the devil and the wild beasts and as we can see it wasn't a walk in the park.
11 Then the devil left Him, and behold, angels came and ministered to Him.
Matt 4:10-11 (NKJV)

Jesus the Man was tempted like Adam the Man but he overcame proving to us all that he really is the MAN.

: Supplanter  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 15:06:30

: OldDad  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 13:25:50

: Supplanter  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 11:59:12
Scripture makes clear that God was fully Deity and fully man. I don't know why you want to ignore that Christ was fully man. He wasn't just God wrapped in flesh. He had two natures that co-existed. He overcame the sin nature of his humanity through his Deity. Hence, why he is an intercessor for us and through Him we can overcome our sins and become Christ-like and one day perfected as He is.

No one has said that Jesus sinned though you wish to misconstrue every response that way. What is being said is that without the capacity to sin, Jesus could not be the intercessor that He is and make a choice to save us. It is extremely important that Jesus had the capacity to sin so he could choose not to do so, leading the way to show us all out of our sinful lives.

Without the choice then the sacrifice would be in vain. Love isn't love unless you have an option. The Father gave Jesus a choice. Jesus could have chosen to not die for us and we also have a choice to follow him, because all men, have choices and face the pull between fulfilling our own desires (sin) or doing the will of the Father.

Jesus overcame that pull of humanity of fufilling his own desires through the nature of His Deity, but that doesn't negate his manhood. If you need the scripture, my study suggestion is the 40 days in the wilderness. Jesus wasn't overcoming Satan so much as he was making his humanity conform to His Deity.

He was perfect and sinless, both as God and man. His human side having the capacity to sin negates none of that.

Best post on this thread. A hearty amen.

Thanks. I appreciate that. And as for being away from here for 8 months . . . . .  ."there is nothing new under the sun"

You might want to consider diffusing the assertion that I am twisting scripture, that implies dishonesty on my part

Yes I do understand it differently and I have explained at length why I do based on the vast preponderance of scripture, not my opinion

To conclude I am twisting it is a bit disingenuous IMHO

Not one person has shown me in scripture how Jesus had the capacity to lie, cheat, deceive, steal, commit adultery, hate or do anything that would cause Him to violate the Will of God and would require Him to have the nature of Satan within Him

Post scripture to that effect and we'll have a genuine discourse.

Address the scripture I posted that shows Jesus had no impurity within Him, show me in the Word where Jesus had corruptible nature within Him

And we can have a genuine discourse

: bemark  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 15:41:23
Well Adam and Eve had no sin in them as well but the Devil tempted them in the (Garden).They had nothing in them at that point.Sin entered in through Adam

Now in the (wilderness) Jesus was tempted for 40 days and spent time with the devil and the wild beasts and as we can see it wasn't a walk in the park.
11 Then the devil left Him, and behold, angels came and ministered to Him.
Matt 4:10-11 (NKJV)

Jesus the Man was tempted like Adam the Man but he overcame proving to us all that he really is the MAN.

Here we go again!


I can't believe you folks do not understand the difference between the two and would continue to actually compare Adam and Eve to Jesus...wow!

Jesus, God the Son came to repair the damage, fix the mess Adam and Eve made

No comparison!

Jesus is Lord, Savior

Adam and Eve were not

Jesus is God come down from heaven

Adam was a being God made from out of the earth


The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 1 Corinthians 15:47


"The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. John 3:31

Everyone of you keeps circling back to the same 2-3 things, Hebrews 4:15, the Garden of Eden and Luke 4  

"For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.. Hebrews 4:15

You wrongly take this to mean Jesus was tempted within Himself, when it is not saying that He had the weakness of being tempted.

For instance if someone asks you to rob a bank and tells you they have a full proof plan for getting away with it...

They are in fact tempting you...BUT

It is not a temptation for you unless that is something you have considered doing or wanted to do

Their offer would be tempting to you ONLY if you it were something that enticed you, that you considered or always wanted to do.

Otherwise you'd just tell them to get out of your face....like Jesus told Satan

Get out of my face, get behind me, you need to follow me, because you can't lead me to do anything!

Jesus is God, God cannot be tempted!

Jesus is not like Adam and Eve who were earthly made from the earth and not Perfect

Jesus allowed Satan to try to tempt Him, according to scripture He had no problem, no struggle whatsoever saying no to Satan at any point

And that is because Jesus is Perfect

: gospel  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 15:58:57

: bemark  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 15:41:23
Well Adam and Eve had no sin in them as well but the Devil tempted them in the (Garden).They had nothing in them at that point.Sin entered in through Adam

Now in the (wilderness) Jesus was tempted for 40 days and spent time with the devil and the wild beasts and as we can see it wasn't a walk in the park.
11 Then the devil left Him, and behold, angels came and ministered to Him.
Matt 4:10-11 (NKJV)

Jesus the Man was tempted like Adam the Man but he overcame proving to us all that he really is the MAN.

Here we go again!


I can't believe you folks do not understand the difference and would continue to actually compare Adam and Eve to Jesus...wow!


The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 1 Corinthians 15:47


"The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. John 3:31

Everyone of you keeps circling back to the same 2-3 things, Hebrews 4:15, the Garden of Eden and Luke 4   

"For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.. Hebrews 4:15

You wrongly take this to mean Jesus was tempted within Himself, when it is not saying that He had the weakness of being tempted.

For instance if someone asks you to rob a bank and tells you they have a full proof plan for getting away with it...

They are in fact tempting you...BUT

It is not a temptation for you unless that is something you have considered doing or wanted to do

Their offer would be tempting to you ONLY if you it were something that enticed you, that you considered or always wanted to do.

Otherwise you'd just tell them to get out of your face....like Jesus told Satan

Get out of my face, get behind me, you need to follow me, because you can't lead me to do anything!

Jesus is God, God cannot be tempted!

Jesus is not like Adam and Eve who were earthly made from the earth and not Perfect

Jesus allowed Satan to try to tempt Him, according to scripture He had no problem, no struggle whatsoever saying no to Satan at any point

And that is because Jesus is Perfect

Makes perfect sense to me ::smile::

16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.
Heb 2:16-18 (NKJV)

: bemark  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 16:09:26
16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.
Heb 2:16-18 (NKJV)

You also made a really good point about Adam and Eve, totally forgot they were without sin too.

: Thankfulldad  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 16:02:47

: gospel  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 15:58:57

: bemark  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 15:41:23
Well Adam and Eve had no sin in them as well but the Devil tempted them in the (Garden).They had nothing in them at that point.Sin entered in through Adam

Now in the (wilderness) Jesus was tempted for 40 days and spent time with the devil and the wild beasts and as we can see it wasn't a walk in the park.
11 Then the devil left Him, and behold, angels came and ministered to Him.
Matt 4:10-11 (NKJV)

Jesus the Man was tempted like Adam the Man but he overcame proving to us all that he really is the MAN.

Here we go again!


I can't believe you folks do not understand the difference and would continue to actually compare Adam and Eve to Jesus...wow!


The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 1 Corinthians 15:47


"The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. John 3:31

Everyone of you keeps circling back to the same 2-3 things, Hebrews 4:15, the Garden of Eden and Luke 4   

"For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.. Hebrews 4:15

You wrongly take this to mean Jesus was tempted within Himself, when it is not saying that He had the weakness of being tempted.

For instance if someone asks you to rob a bank and tells you they have a full proof plan for getting away with it...

They are in fact tempting you...BUT

It is not a temptation for you unless that is something you have considered doing or wanted to do

Their offer would be tempting to you ONLY if you it were something that enticed you, that you considered or always wanted to do.

Otherwise you'd just tell them to get out of your face....like Jesus told Satan

Get out of my face, get behind me, you need to follow me, because you can't lead me to do anything!

Jesus is God, God cannot be tempted!

Jesus is not like Adam and Eve who were earthly made from the earth and not Perfect

Jesus allowed Satan to try to tempt Him, according to scripture He had no problem, no struggle whatsoever saying no to Satan at any point

And that is because Jesus is Perfect

Makes perfect sense to me ::smile::

Thanks Thankful  ::smile::

Funny thing about it in a sad kind of way is...

Jesus Created Adam and Eve...yet these folks still attempt to compare them to Him

So when I see these kinds of comments

I have to admit I am somewhat aghast and dismayed


New American Standard Bible (©1995)
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. John 1:3

For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. Colossians 1:16

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. Genesis 1:26

JESUS IS GOD!

But then we have this passage as well

16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.
Heb 2:16-18 (NKJV)

: Bitter Sweet  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 16:11:08

: bemark  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 16:09:26
16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.
Heb 2:16-18 (NKJV)

You also made a really good point about Adam and Eve, totally forgot they were without sin too.

Bittersweet, if I am correct, you've stated you're married to an atheist and have stated he doesn't lust after woman

Yet you want to believe my Jesus did

Johndb said he doesn't lust after woman

Yet he wants to believe my Jesus did

You, me, Johndb, his wife, bemark, Thankfuldad, larry2 and every human being on planet earth born on planet earth is like Adam and Eve

earthly and as such flawed and imperfect

Jesus is from heaven

PERFECT!

Egads the level of this conversation is staggeringly frustrating

when I see the lack of understanding BELIEVERS have in the knowledge of Our Lord and Savior

YET WITHOUT SIN

Means there was no sin found in Him

In the wilderness
Satan was looking for sin in Jesus .....GOT FRUSTRATED cause He couldn't find any!  

John 14:30

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me;

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

International Standard Version (©2008)
I will not talk with you much longer, because the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
"After this I will not be speaking much with you, for The Prince of the world is coming and he has nothing to use against me.


THERE WAS NO SIN IN JESUS!

::reading::

: gospel  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 16:14:23
Funny thing about it in a sad kind of way is...

Jesus Created Adam and Eve...yet these folks still attempt to compare them to Him

So when I see these kinds of comments

I have to admit I am somewhat aghast and dismayed

Here's a particularly bad one of those comparisons...

Rom 5:14-15 - Death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.  But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

: bemark  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 16:21:30
But then we have this passage as well

16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.
Heb 2:16-18 (NKJV)

Bemark think about what you're doing

You're trying to prove that Jesus could have sinned just like you and I

What in the heck kind of thing is that to prove?

That's like agreeing with JWs and Muslims that Jesus was just a man...

Somehow you folks are missing that

You can't say Jesus is God

And then turnaround and say God could have sinned because He was just like us

That's why a lot of people don't respect Christians

You folks act like you don't understand your own bible and your own Faith

JESUS IS GOD

Everything begins and ends right there

You're so caught up making God like us

You overlook the fact that the reason He came was to do with man could not do

SAVE OURSELVES

Luke 18:27 Jesus replied, "What is impossible with men is possible with God.

: gospel  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 16:25:22
Bittersweet, if I am correct, you've stated you're married to an atheist and have stated he doesn't lust after woman

Yet you want to believe my Jesus did

Johndb said he doesn't lust after woman

Yet he wants to believe my Jesus did

That's borderline slander because we never said we believe Jesus had lust in his heart, you are the only one saying it. I said my husband doesn't have an issue with that and John doesn't have an issue with it either.

You are bearing false witness against us, there is a commandment that states not to do that.

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 16:30:22

: gospel  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 16:14:23
Funny thing about it in a sad kind of way is...

Jesus Created Adam and Eve...yet these folks still attempt to compare them to Him

So when I see these kinds of comments

I have to admit I am somewhat aghast and dismayed

Here's a particularly bad one of those comparisons...

Rom 5:14-15 - Death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.  But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Maybe you're being sarcastic but in assuming you are not

The comparison Paul is making in that verse

THE EXTENT OF HOW MUCH BETTER JESUS IS THAN ADAM

I suppose now we'll be digressing to argue that Jesus is just like Adam

But I need to remind you

JESUS CREATED ADAM!

: gospel  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 16:33:55
I suppose now we'll be digressing to argue that Jesus is just like Adam

But I need to remind you

JESUS CREATED ADAM!

Yep... in His own image.  Adam was just like Jesus.

Jarrod

: Bitter Sweet  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 16:31:50

: gospel  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 16:25:22
Bittersweet, if I am correct, you've stated you're married to an atheist and have stated he doesn't lust after woman

Yet you want to believe my Jesus did

Johndb said he doesn't lust after woman

Yet he wants to believe my Jesus did

That's borderline slander because we never said we believe Jesus had lust in his heart, you are the only one saying it. I said my husband doesn't have an issue with that and John doesn't have an issue with it either.

Not meaning to be slanderous but you're saying we, as if you all agree and I'm directing my comments at everyone who has been debating against my points

So what has been said is

JESUS HAD THE CAPACITY TO SIN

That is exactly the same as saying

JESUS HAD SIN WITHIN HIM

Your husband has sin in him and is choosing not to sin

Johndb has sin in him and is choosing not to sin

JESUS HAD NO SIN IN HIM

Why?

The bible makes it clear

John 14:30

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me;

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.


1 John 2:16
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.


God cannot be tempted!


13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God

: gospel  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 16:42:22
So what has been said is

JESUS HAD THE CAPACITY TO SIN

That is exactly the same as saying

JESUS HAD SIN WITHIN HIM

See, here's the crux of what's wrong with your theology here.  Those two things are not at all the same.  Not remotely similar, even.

: gospel  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 16:42:22
We are carried away by our own lusts

THAT MEANS

YOU HAVE TO HAVE LUST WITHIN YOU TO BE TEMPTED

NO LUST, NO DESIRE, NO ENTICEMENT..... NO TEMPTATION, its that simple! ::shrug::

That's My Lord and Savior Jesus Perfect in Every way!

Some of us don't have an issue with lust, desire, enticement, or temptation. We learned how to be in control over it from Jesus. How can he teach us how to do it if he himself didn't know how?

: Bitter Sweet  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 16:51:16
Some of us don't have an issue with lust, desire, enticement, or temptation. We learned how to be in control over it from Jesus. How can he teach us how to do it if he himself didn't know how?

Really...no desire of sin or temptation?  When is the last time you were tempted?

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 16:44:39

: gospel  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 16:42:22
So what has been said is

JESUS HAD THE CAPACITY TO SIN

That is exactly the same as saying

JESUS HAD SIN WITHIN HIM

See, here's the crux of what's wrong with your theology here.  Those two things are not at all the same.  Not remotely similar, even.

Jarrod get yourself some scripture pardner!

Human wisdom ain't gonna cut it round these parts

They are EXACTLY the same

JESUS WAS UNABLE TO SIN

because

THERE WAS NO SIN WITHIN HIM

-----

PURE WATER HAS NO CAPACITY TO POISON

because

PURE WATER HAS NO POISON IN IT


same thing

: Thankfulldad  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 16:58:10

: Bitter Sweet  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 16:51:16
Some of us don't have an issue with lust, desire, enticement, or temptation. We learned how to be in control over it from Jesus. How can he teach us how to do it if he himself didn't know how?

Really...no desire of sin or temptation?  When is the last time you were tempted?

None, no desire. I can't remember the last time, there isn't anything in this world that I desire to be tempted by.

But that is where he tricked the trickster.

He defeated him where we didn't so through him we could have victory.

He became like us so we can become like him.


We are talking in what form was Jesus in on earth.Did he bleed and did he not get angry and not sin.Did he not weep eat and sleep.

Look he came  from above to come down and then he went  up again.

: bemark  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 17:14:48
But that is where he tricked the trickster.

He defeated him where we didn't so through him we could have victory.

He became like us so we can become like him.


We are talking in what form was Jesus in on earth.Did he bleed and did he not get angry and not sin.Did he not weep eat and sleep.

Look he came  from above to come down and then he went  up again.

Scripture please?

What part.

: Bitter Sweet  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 17:14:11

: Thankfulldad  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 16:58:10

: Bitter Sweet  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 16:51:16
Some of us don't have an issue with lust, desire, enticement, or temptation. We learned how to be in control over it from Jesus. How can he teach us how to do it if he himself didn't know how?

Really...no desire of sin or temptation?  When is the last time you were tempted?

None, no desire. I can't remember the last time, there isn't anything in this world that I desire to be tempted by.

No lust? No anger? No judging others? No coveting? No envy? Nothing?  You love perfectly...always patient, always kind, never envy, never boast, never proud, never rude, never self-seeking, not easily angered, you keep no record of wrongs, you never lie or deceive, always trusting, always protecting, always hoping  No temptations of this world what so ever?  You always show compassion, forgive all...would give up your life for another?  You are honestly never tempted by anything in this world, by satan or by your own flesh?

Amazing...

Satan, his demon buddies, my flesh and this world; are a constant battle in my life tempting me...causing me to struggle, stumble and so on ::frown::

: bemark  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 17:21:28
What part.

You're arguing that Purity had within Himself impurity ....

I'm arguing there is no impurity in Jesus

He was Perfectly Pure in every way

Satan found nothing of his stuff in Jesus because there was nothing that belonged to Satan in Jesus

John 14:30

If you disagree cite a scripture that contradicts John 14:30

Show us in scripture where deceit is found in the heart or mouth of Jesus

It's literally like saying pure water has to be tested for poison

Actually kind of silly

: Thankfulldad  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 17:31:39

: Bitter Sweet  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 17:14:11

: Thankfulldad  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 16:58:10

: Bitter Sweet  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 16:51:16
Some of us don't have an issue with lust, desire, enticement, or temptation. We learned how to be in control over it from Jesus. How can he teach us how to do it if he himself didn't know how?

Really...no desire of sin or temptation?  When is the last time you were tempted?

None, no desire. I can't remember the last time, there isn't anything in this world that I desire to be tempted by.

No lust? No anger? No judging others? No coveting? No envy? Nothing?  You love perfectly...always patient, always kind, never envy, never boast, never proud, never rude, never self-seeking, not easily angered, you keep no record of wrongs, you never lie or deceive, always trusting, always protecting, always hoping  No temptations of this world what so ever?  You always show compassion, forgive all...would give up your life for another?  You are honestly never tempted by anything in this world, by satan or by your own flesh?

Amazing...

Satan, his demon buddies, my flesh and this world; are a constant battle in my life tempting me...causing me to struggle, stumble and so on ::frown::

Yep....its Ephesians 6:12, everyday!

: gospel  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 16:59:41

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 16:44:39

: gospel  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 16:42:22
So what has been said is

JESUS HAD THE CAPACITY TO SIN

That is exactly the same as saying

JESUS HAD SIN WITHIN HIM

See, here's the crux of what's wrong with your theology here.  Those two things are not at all the same.  Not remotely similar, even.

Jarrod get yourself some scripture pardner!

Human wisdom ain't gonna cut it round these parts

They are EXACTLY the same

JESUS WAS UNABLE TO SIN

because

THERE WAS NO SIN WITHIN HIM

I don't see much use in plying you with the same Scriptures over and over again, just so you can ignore them.  My interest in arguing with you is slim, since you use every logical fallacy and rhetorical trick known to man, ignore any sort of real argument, and just pound the same point over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

My comment was just an observation, to point out to others where the train left the tracks and went hurdling through the bushes.

Jesus was fully man, as well as fully God, regardless of how often you try to deny it.

Jarrod

I agree he had nothing in him

Nor did Adam.

Jesus didn't sin and that's what counts.Why did the devil even attempt to tempt Jesus,  because he must have known him for a long time before hand.

Known his nature.

: gospel  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 17:32:39

: bemark  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 17:21:28
What part.

You're arguing that Purity had within Himself impurity ....

I'm arguing there is no impurity in Jesus

He was Perfectly Pure in every way

Satan found nothing of his stuff in Jesus because there was nothing that belonged to Satan in Jesus

John 14:30

If you disagree cite a scripture that contradicts John 14:30

Show us in scripture where deceit is found in the heart or mouth of Jesus

It's literally like saying pure water has to be tested for poison

Actually kind of silly

Yes, but is it not possible to poison that pure water? That would be the analogy we are speaking of and not that it isn't pure to begin or that it didn't stay pure, just that any water can be poisoned if we choose to put poison in it.

: Thankfulldad  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 17:31:39

No lust? No anger? No judging others? No coveting? No envy? Nothing?  You love perfectly...always patient, always kind, never envy, never boast, never proud, never rude, never self-seeking, not easily angered, you keep no record of wrongs, you never lie or deceive, always trusting, always protecting, always hoping  No temptations of this world what so ever?  You always show compassion, forgive all...would give up your life for another?  You are honestly never tempted by anything in this world, by satan or by your own flesh?

I'm not  perfect, I do correct myself when I make a mistake but the biggies I don't have any issues with. I don't hold what people say to me against them, I am constantly attempting to make peace with people. Perfection isn't easily put into words, knowing that we are imperfect and make a constant effort to be more perfect is what matters. Also believing you know exactly what perfection is, could that make you perfect? No, because perfection isn't what most people imagine it to be, that's why it's always within our reach.

I don't know what to be tempted by? I don't see anything of that much interest to me out there. The world bores me.

Satan, his demon buddies, my flesh and this world; are a constant battle in my life tempting me...causing me to struggle, stumble and so on ::frown::

If it doesn't go against your will and you truly want to do God's will then you won't have a problem with this for much longer.

This is just one more of those discussions that derive basically from the false teaching of original sin.  That one false doctrine has probably generated more subsequent false teachings within Christendom than any one other of Satan's lies.

The thread of confusion is what is found here.  Stand back and take a macro view of this topic and see how Trinitarian/Demonic doctrine is holding all back from seeing God's view of our inherited sin-prone nature.

The palaver of devil talk is also an issue.

Why do you think Job greatly feared God (and not some imaginary supernatural being)?
The answer is obvious!

could you please expand on this so i can get your point or points

: bemark  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 23:05:13
could you please expand on this so i can get your point or points

We know there is no such thing as an evil supernatural being; only an adversary of Job whose complaint had come up to God.

Why do you think Job greatly feared God?

The answer is in the record!

What about satan and the 1/3 that was cast out of heaven.

Now Job greatly feared God because he met him in the cloud of Darkness and lets be real only Moses wanted to go up the first time.

The Knowledge of the  fear of God is the beginning of understanding.Yeah the love of God is good and also the peace of God but to come into the knowledge of him in this way must have blown his mind.Big Daddy now asking some hard questions.

Because he wanted Job to know him more,  so he could be known more to Job.Penetrating questions right through the soul like a hot  knife through butter.The sword of the Lord

: bemark  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 23:25:35
No so whats the problem

Do me a favour Bemark.

What Bible program do you use?

You must have a concern.What is it?

: bemark  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 23:30:05
You must have a concern.What is it?

What Bible program do you use?

Bible gateway/bible explorer 4  etc

what do you use?

: bemark  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 23:32:02
Bible gateway/bible explorer 4  etc

what do you use?

Thanks

I use e-sword.

I want you to go and search on Satan in Job and tell me what immediately strikes you as odd?

I will be waiting....

 ::eatingpopcorn:

: Sinead  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 23:34:14
::eatingpopcorn:

Are you willing to share?

: Insight  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 23:09:28

: bemark  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 23:05:13
could you please expand on this so i can get your point or points

We know there is no such thing as an evil supernatural being; only an adversary of Job whose complaint had come up to God.

Why do you think Job greatly feared God?

The answer is in the record!

So you don't believe in the Devil?How about you come out and say what is odd about it.May be a little bit faster that way

I'm waiting to hear what you're going to say about satan.

: bemark  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 23:35:46

: Insight  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 23:09:28

: bemark  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 23:05:13
could you please expand on this so i can get your point or points

We know there is no such thing as an evil supernatural being; only an adversary of Job whose complaint had come up to God.

Why do you think Job greatly feared God?

The answer is in the record!

So you don't believe in the Devil?How about you come out and say what is odd about it.May be a little bit faster that way

No I am still waiting for you to explain to me whats odd?

No trick questions!

: Insight  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 23:36:42

: bemark  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 23:35:46

: Insight  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 23:09:28

: bemark  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 23:05:13
could you please expand on this so i can get your point or points

We know there is no such thing as an evil supernatural being; only an adversary of Job whose complaint had come up to God.

Why do you think Job greatly feared God?

The answer is in the record!

So you don't believe in the Devil?How about you come out and say what is odd about it.May be a little bit faster that way

No I am still waiting for you to explain to me whats odd?

No trick questions!

I don't see anything odd other than God asking satan what he's been up to when He already knew.

: Sinead  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 23:38:50

: Insight  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 23:36:42

: bemark  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 23:35:46

: Insight  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 23:09:28

: bemark  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 23:05:13
could you please expand on this so i can get your point or points

We know there is no such thing as an evil supernatural being; only an adversary of Job whose complaint had come up to God.

Why do you think Job greatly feared God?

The answer is in the record!

So you don't believe in the Devil?How about you come out and say what is odd about it.May be a little bit faster that way

No I am still waiting for you to explain to me whats odd?

No trick questions!

I don't see anything odd other than God asking satan what he's been up to when He already knew.

I thought it would be glaringly obvious?

How many chapters are in the book of Job? and how many of those chapters does the adversary appear in?

: Insight  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 23:36:42

: bemark  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 23:35:46

: Insight  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 23:09:28

: bemark  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 23:05:13
could you please expand on this so i can get your point or points

We know there is no such thing as an evil supernatural being; only an adversary of Job whose complaint had come up to God.

Why do you think Job greatly feared God?

The answer is in the record!

So you don't believe in the Devil?How about you come out and say what is odd about it.May be a little bit faster that way

No I am still waiting for you to explain to me whats odd?

No trick questions!

I don't believe you are trying to trick me.Just get to the point.I love Revelation

: bemark  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 23:40:36

: Insight  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 23:36:42

: bemark  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 23:35:46

: Insight  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 23:09:28

: bemark  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 23:05:13
could you please expand on this so i can get your point or points

We know there is no such thing as an evil supernatural being; only an adversary of Job whose complaint had come up to God.

Why do you think Job greatly feared God?

The answer is in the record!

So you don't believe in the Devil?How about you come out and say what is odd about it.May be a little bit faster that way

No I am still waiting for you to explain to me whats odd?

No trick questions!

I don't believe you are trying to trick me.Just get to the point.I love Revelation

Senead may struggle with this question so here we go.

There are 42 chapters in Job of which the Satan (adversary) appears in the first 3 chapter's and then disappears without further mention of reference.

Some perspective then is in order if one is to better understand Job.

Of those three chapters and the discussion between the adversary and God; who actually bought the evil upon Job?

Well, I would say satan brought it on him and God allowed it. If God hadn't agreed to it, it wouldn't have happened.

: Sinead  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 23:48:39
Well, I would say satan brought it on him and God allowed it. If God hadn't agreed to it, it wouldn't have happened.

Yes and most Christians would answer as you have.

So why within the book of Job not once, I will repeat that again, NOT once is the evil applied to some supernatural being?

All knew that God had brought the evil upon Job.

Adversary:

1:11Stretch out Your hand and touch (2:5)

Job:            

1:21 The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away. (2:10)
       
6:4The arrows of the Almighty are within me.
       
9:17He crushes me multiplies my wounds without cause.
     
10:8Your hands made me yet You would destroy me.
     
19:6Know then that God has wronged me.
     
27:2As God lives, who has taken away my justice.

Friends:      

5:17Do not despise the chastening of the Almighty.
       
8:4He has cast your sons away for their transgression.
     
11:6God exacts from you less than your iniquity deserves.

God:            

2:3You incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause.
     
42:11All the adversity that the LORD had brought upon him.

What does this say about your supernatural fairytale monster?

I really wish satan was just a fairy tale monster. It would be nice.

Only a supernatural being would have been able to do what he did to Job.
There are times when I wish I could inflict someone with a boil, but try as I might i just can't seem to get the hang of it.

Alright so we get down to this

The thing I greatly feared has come upon me ( not God  but the problems of everyday life)

so then God had to take Job through a experience that challenged his way of thinking so then he feared God more than anything else .

So God could come upon him more.

The fear of losing your wife children home etc dosen't compare to the fear of not knowing him more in this life.

: bemark  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 23:58:21
Alright so we get down to this

The thing I greatly feared has come upon me ( not God  but the problems of everyday life)

so then God had to take Job through a experience that challenged her way of thinking so then he feared God more than anything else .

So God could come upon him more.

The fear of losing your wife children home etc dosen't compare to the fear of not knowing him more in this life.

No.

Did you notice how quickly Sinead dismissed the Word of God over his preconceived doctrines of devils?

Even if you didn't agree with me the avoidance of the blatant evidence is confronting is it not?

Imagine how the Lord felt when teaching the Pharisees?

Flippant Bible reading and Flippant Bible commentary are so closely related.

Rather frightening.

Insight

Look there is the message through what is in the bible.

That no matter what we go through God is always there and he loves us so much.
And yes we will go through trials and sufferings and we will either say " this far and no more",or we allow him to breakthrough into areas of our life that we thought we had control over.The healer deliverer and restorer of our soul.This is what defines one who overcomes

And he will turn around what the enemy meant for evil for good

: Insight  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 00:02:19

: bemark  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 23:58:21
Alright so we get down to this

The thing I greatly feared has come upon me ( not God  but the problems of everyday life)

so then God had to take Job through a experience that challenged her way of thinking so then he feared God more than anything else .

So God could come upon him more.

The fear of losing your wife children home etc dosen't compare to the fear of not knowing him more in this life.

No.

Did you notice how quickly Sinead dismissed the Word of God over his preconceived doctrines of devils?

Even if you didn't agree with me the avoidance of the blatant evidence is confronting is it not?

Imagine how the Lord felt when teaching the Pharisees?

Flippant Bible reading and Flippant Bible commentary are so closely related.

Rather frightening.

Insight

Talking about me are you? tsk tsk.

Also I'm not a he.

I didn't dismiss anything.

Hay thinking about the whole Job thing,  God was doing Job a favor.His wife was just saying curse God and die and his sons where just ratbags


Sure he had to endure pain full boils but wasn't that just for a short period of time?

: Insight  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 23:52:02

: Sinead  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 23:48:39
Well, I would say satan brought it on him and God allowed it. If God hadn't agreed to it, it wouldn't have happened.

Yes and most Christians would answer as you have.

So why within the book of Job not once, I will repeat that again, NOT once is the evil applied to some supernatural being?

All knew that God had brought the evil upon Job.

Adversary:

1:11Stretch out Your hand and touch (2:5)

Job:            

1:21 The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away. (2:10)
       
6:4The arrows of the Almighty are within me.
       
9:17He crushes me multiplies my wounds without cause.
     
10:8Your hands made me yet You would destroy me.
     
19:6Know then that God has wronged me.
     
27:2As God lives, who has taken away my justice.

Friends:      

5:17Do not despise the chastening of the Almighty.
       
8:4He has cast your sons away for their transgression.
     
11:6God exacts from you less than your iniquity deserves.

God:            

2:3You incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause.
     
42:11All the adversity that the LORD had brought upon him.

What does this say about your supernatural fairytale monster?

What does this tell you about your satan?

My satan?


edit: no need to quote everything in every post

Edit: I was asking insight a question and if my post involves 2 words, so be it. I dont see any forum rules stating that my post cannot be 2 words.

Yes your satan.

If you cannot provide one verse from Job attributing the evil bought upon him then I ask once more what does this inform us about your satan.

("your

Are you saying that you don't believe satan exists?

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 17:49:50

: gospel  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 16:59:41

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 16:44:39

: gospel  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 16:42:22
So what has been said is

JESUS HAD THE CAPACITY TO SIN

That is exactly the same as saying

JESUS HAD SIN WITHIN HIM

See, here's the crux of what's wrong with your theology here.  Those two things are not at all the same.  Not remotely similar, even.

Jarrod get yourself some scripture pardner!

Human wisdom ain't gonna cut it round these parts

They are EXACTLY the same

JESUS WAS UNABLE TO SIN

because

THERE WAS NO SIN WITHIN HIM

I don't see much use in plying you with the same Scriptures over and over again, just so you can ignore them.  My interest in arguing with you is slim, since you use every logical fallacy and rhetorical trick known to man, ignore any sort of real argument, and just pound the same point over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

My comment was just an observation, to point out to others where the train left the tracks and went hurdling through the bushes.

Jesus was fully man, as well as fully God, regardless of how often you try to deny it.

Jarrod

You haven't plied one scripture correctly yet is the problem. If you cite Hebrews 4:18 and do not understand it's not saying Jesus was tempted in Himself, that's not my fault.

Accusing me of using logical fallacy and rhetorical trickery is a good one, especially since I've requested that you and everyone who disagrees with me ignore my words and actually for once deal with the scriptures I have posted, which up to this point amount to at least 10 or more

Its up to you to negate my understanding of the scriptures by showing me in the scriptures where I'm wrong.

That is what I've been doing the whole thread

If the train left the track it was a long time ago when this humanistic philosophy doctrine was introduced to the Body of Christ cloaked as Truth when it is in fact a lie for very obvious reasons that can proven according to scripture.

YES JESUS WAS FULLY MAN! A newborn Christian even knows that, even an idiot, newly reborn understands that much.

But it is the height of presumption to assume that being FULLY MAN literally means Jesus was a man plagued by the inner turmoil of struggling with Satan and inner demons like the rest of us....

...Accepting that lie is where the train left the tracks, years ago!

Buddha was fully man, he repressed and denied sexual urges, he repressed and denied hatred, he repressed and denied the base instincts of human nature, so what

AN ATHEIST CAN DO THAT!


JESUS ON THE OTHER HAND WAS PURE AND HE HAD

NO BASE INSTINCTS OF THE WORLD,

NO DESIRES BELONGING TO SATAN

NO SIN NATURE

NO BASE INSTINCTS OF HUMAN NATURE WITHIN HIM ...therefore

HE COULD NOT BE CORRUPTED...HE WAS GOD in the form of a man

Not a man dominating over the little bit of God living Him .... like us!

GOD, preeminent within and over the man Jesus within whom He inhabited

THE FULL STATURE OF GOD, ABIDED WITHIN JESUS

The bible says He had the Spirit without measure ( See John 3:34 ) That means UNLIMITED, NO LIMITATIONS!

When you get that you'll be back on the tracks headed for Grand Central Station but until then, unfortunately I hate to be the bearer of bad news but you've unknowingly bought into a humanistic philosophy concerning Our Lord  ::shrug::


 

: bemark  Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 17:51:56
I agree he had nothing in him

Nor did Adam.

Jesus didn't sin and that's what counts.Why did the devil even attempt to tempt Jesus,  because he must have known him for a long time before hand.

Known his nature.

Why did the devil tempt Jesus? Now finally someone has asked a very good thoughtful question, thanks ever so much!  ::tippinghat::

There is a pattern to the way Satan operates it can be seen throughout the bible. God Himself is very familiar with the methods Satan employs, so much so He takes account of Satan's ways, calculating them into His Plans

This is how

First of all, Satan knew Jesus in His Glory, As a King, as Royalty.
Satan did not know Jesus in the form of a servant, stripped of His heavenly glory, wearing peasant clothes so to speak,

Secondly

Whatever God says is good, whatever or whoever God speaks well of, whatever or whoever God blesses,
WHOMEVER GOD BRAGS ABOUT AND ESTEEMS AS RIGHTEOUS, SATAN COMES TO DESTROY. There is a lot that can be said on this as to the why this is so but let me cut to the chase.

Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good

Once God pronounced this statement and Adam and Eve were situated in the Garden it would only be a matter of time before Satan would show up.

As you know that was Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?

As to the other thought brought up by Insight his concept of Satan being an anthropamorphism is not new or completely outside the box. It was a common belief throughout the ages last being popular in the 1960's. The pharase "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" stems from this theological belief. Many years of debate have centered on this discussion.

: bemark  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 00:40:39
Hay thinking about the whole Job thing,  God was doing Job a favor.His wife was just saying curse God and die and his sons where just ratbags


Sure he had to endure pain full boils but wasn't that just for a short period of time?

Extreme as that may sound, it still rings true to my OP in that,

What Job greatly feared, was somewhat warranted believing his children were messing up

Satan knew what Job feared and tried to capitalize upon them to prove God wrong,

Believing Job was not as righteous as God proclaimed, Satan used Job's fear as a basis of attacking him

That is why
The timing of the first calamity was not at all coincidental

Occurring while his children were partying

: gospel  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 11:27:05
Its up to you to negate my understanding of the scriptures by showing me in the scriptures where I'm wrong.

James 1:13 - Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Here is your problem.  You haven't managed to read the bolded words.  God cannot be tempted... with evil.  It does not say that God could not be tempted with things that were not evil.

For instance...
Food
Drink
Libido

None of these things are evil.  All of these things lead to temptation.  

Just ask Eve - the first thing the snake pointed out to her was that something was good to eat.  She didn't have an internal issue with sin or a sin nature or corruption.  She was tempted with something which God proclaimed "it is good."

Do you suppose it is a coincidence that in Jesus temptation, the first thing he was tempted by was bread?  No... the devil was not stupid.  He knew he didn't have a foothold in Jesus heart.  So he picked the only footholds he could find.. the natural need for food being one of them.

The power of satan is not to create things that are evil.  It is to mis-use things that are good, for evil.

: gospel  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 11:27:05It is the height of presumption to assume that being FULLY MAN literally means Jesus was a man plagued by the inner turmoil of struggling with Satan and inner demons like the rest of us....

...Accepting that lie is where the train left the tracks, years ago!

Nobody has ever claimed this.  This argument is a figment of your imagination.  

Or perhaps we should just call it the straw man that it is.  How many times are you going to set up the same argument that NOBODY has made, and then refute it?

Jarrod

James 1:13 - Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Here is your problem.  You haven't managed to read the bolded words.  God cannot be tempted... with evil.  It does not say that God could not be tempted with things that were not evil.

For instance...
Food
Drink
Libido

None of these things are evil.  All of these things lead to temptation.  

Thanks Jarrod, this is what I enjoy, discussing on the basis of scripture.

Methinks without intending to, you are actually helping me make the point I am arguing...God cannot be tempted with evil, none of those things are evil.

Yet those are the things which make Jesus fully man, you can include joy, sorrow the need to sleep, laughter

HOWEVER
As you said
None of these things are evil and because they are not, in and of themselves none of these things are sin.

Yes they can all lead to sin but as I stated in an earlier post, Satan could not lead Jesus into sin for NOTHING IN JESUS belonged to Satan.

Every need we have as humans, as men, was given to us by God.

With every physical need God has given us, he has also given us that which meets the need!

For hunger he has given us food, for thirst He has given us water, for procreation He's given us sex etc, etc

For every need there is a God given an answer!

Jesus even said Your Heavenly knows your needs...HE GAVE THEM

Enter Satan...

Satan see's our needs as weaknesses through which he can control and manipulate us through his own devices ( see 1 John 2:16 ) lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and the pride of life

In order for Satan's devices to work, a person has to be subject to them, blind to them, conformed to them, unwary of them, non vigilant toward them, unwise of them, undiscerning of them....

and if you've noticed, yes there's a lot of scriptural references in that one statement.

Just ask Eve - the first thing the snake pointed out to her was that something was good to eat.  She didn't have an internal issue with sin or a sin nature or corruption.  She was tempted with something which God proclaimed "it is good."

What you're missing here is Satan's device using the lust of the flesh to get her to OBEY HIS VOICE, ignoring what God has said.

Satan's whole mission is to get us to obey His Voice and ignore what God has said. That is why Jesus said in John 10, my sheep hear my voice and to another they will not listen

Do you suppose it is a coincidence that in Jesus temptation, the first thing he was tempted by was bread?  No... the devil was not stupid.  He knew he didn't have a foothold in Jesus heart.  So he picked the only footholds he could find.. the natural need for food being one of them.

Exactly but what Satan could not do was use hunger as a means to deceive Jesus into obeying him.

He wanted Jesus to obey his voice, the way Adam did

Jesus came to restore the Fall to reverse what Adam did...that was His Mission

That is why
Jesus would never ever in a million years obey Satan, Jesus could not obey Satan, its impossible!

Jesus is King of one Kingdom, satan is the ruler of another bogus kingdom

that is why Jesus said Satan get behind me.

That means Satan you are to follow me, I don't follow you, I lead you, you don't lead me

The power of satan is not to create things that are evil.  It is to mis-use things that are good, for evil.

Exactly but the evil is
HEEDING HIS VOICE, IGNORING WHAT GOD HAS SAID USING OUR NEEDS AS A MEANS OF EMPLOYING HIS DECEPTION

In fact Satan cannot create, he can only take the good things God created and pervert them,

He perverts Truth, the result is a lie
He perverts Life, the result is death
He perverts Health, the result is sickness
He perverts  Peace, the result is confusion
He perverts sex, the result is sexual perversion
He perverts our imagination, the result is fantasy

etc, etc etc

This is how Satan gets worship, His whole goal is to get worship, The entire reason he was kicked out of heaven was because he wanted to be worshiped as god. When he gets people to obey him, by default they are giving him worship. Satan does not care how he gets it...it could be through fame, money, riches, pride, sex, even religion or anything at all, it doesn't really matter what it is, he just wants man to obey him and not God Almighty

Jesus would never ever obey Satan...NEVER!

Quote from: gospel on Today at 11:27:05 AM
It is the height of presumption to assume that being FULLY MAN literally means Jesus was a man plagued by the inner turmoil of struggling with Satan and inner demons like the rest of us....

...Accepting that lie is where the train left the tracks, years ago!
Nobody has ever claimed this.  This argument is a figment of your imagination.  

Or perhaps we should just call it the straw man that it is.  How many times are you going to set up the same argument that NOBODY has made, and then refute it?

You may not thing you are but you are making that argument unwittingly and unknowingly by saying two different things at the same time

Here's how

You guys said Jesus is sinless because He correctly chose not to sin

Yet you say He could have sinned because He was fully man

Furthermore

Some of you have said if Jesus couldn't have chose wrongly what good was the test

Now
Here's what I am saying

To say Jesus could have sinned is to say sin was within Him, waiting for an opportunity

To say Jesus could have obeyed Satan is the same thing as saying God could have obeyed Satan

To say Jesus could have chosen evil is to say evil was present with Him, it is to say that something that belonged to Satan was within Jesus' heart

What I have been consistently presenting is scores of scripture that refute those wrong assertions

I am saying it was impossible for Jesus to sin first and foremost because it was impossible for Him to fail

Man's Redemption was a foregone conclusion from the foundation of the world, an established Truth and Fact of God, according to His Perfect Plan brought about through The coming of His Perfect Savior!

He came as the Lamb of God, Pure, Flawless, Perfect, Righteous, The Holy One of God, Perfect in All of His Ways with no possibility of failure and only one possible outcome, God's Sovereign Will!

Then someone comes along and presents Philippians 2:6  trying to assert Jesus emptied Himself of Deity.

Which is totally incorrect and NOT TRUE according to scripture!

It is a total falsehood, which I went into great detail to prove and cited the link below to back me up

Jesus came as God, He proved Himself as God

Raising the dead, giving sight to the blind, healing the sick, walking on water, etc, etc etc

None of which would be possible if He had emptied Himself

I correctly explained he made Himself of no reputation is the correct rendering of that verse

In other words Jesus taking on flesh is akin to a King donning the garments of a peasant, coming to dwell among His subjects in the appearance of a mere man, YET the King, in Jesus case YET FULLY GOD!

http://www.kjvtoday.com/home/made-himself-of-no-reputation-or-emptied-himself-in-philippians-27

Manna to you for you response, I look forward to more of that nature

Thanks!

: JohnDB  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 12:29:54
As to the other thought brought up by Insight his concept of Satan being an anthropamorphism is not new or completely outside the box. It was a common belief throughout the ages last being popular in the 1960's. The pharase "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" stems from this theological belief. Many years of debate have centered on this discussion.

Over the years I have had the pleasure of discussing Job in great detail with those who hold to an evil demonic despot.  The arguments for such a being in Job are baseless and without Scriptural support. 

It has always puzzled me why the adversary in Job is not referred to in the New Testament, actually all the wrested passages in Isa and Ezek likewise find no place in the New Testament record. 

I was hoping one here would enter Job with me, but it seems few are willing to do so.  This is not said to imply a challenge John, rather show the shallow depth of knowledge on such an important teaching as the true nature of the adversary in Job.

Insight

: Sinead  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 06:09:48
Are you saying that you don't believe satan exists?

Satan exists but like many subjects in the Bible one must dig a lot to discover truth.  Speaking at the Word as many here do will not reveal this hidden knowledge.

Very few are willing to be lead into truth...for why bother if we know everything!

Insight

: Insight  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 15:31:06

: JohnDB  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 12:29:54
As to the other thought brought up by Insight his concept of Satan being an anthropamorphism is not new or completely outside the box. It was a common belief throughout the ages last being popular in the 1960's. The pharase "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" stems from this theological belief. Many years of debate have centered on this discussion.

Over the years I have had the pleasure of discussing Job in great detail with those who hold to an evil demonic despot.  The arguments for such a being in Job are baseless and without Scriptural support. 

It has always puzzled me why the adversary in Job is not referred to in the New Testament, actually all the wrested passages in Isa and Ezek likewise find no place in the New Testament record. 

I was hoping one here would enter Job with me, but it seems few are willing to do so.  This is not said to imply a challenge John, rather show the shallow depth of knowledge on such an important teaching as the true nature of the adversary in Job.

Insight

Personally I think you have over-thought the topic and if there is some deep hidden mystery concerning Satan that you want to share with us why not start a new thread and establish your premise.

Hopefully and prayerfully it does not bear any resemblance to Mormon doctrine

Looking forward to your new thread meanwhile

Satan is the same adversary spoken of in Job 1,
Ezekiel 28:11-19,
Isaiah 14:12-17,
Luke 4,
Matthew 4,
John 13:27, Luke 22:3, 1 Peter 5:7,8 , James 4:7, Ephesians 6 and Revelations 12:10 and the list goes on 

: Insight  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 15:35:50

: Sinead  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 06:09:48
Are you saying that you don't believe satan exists?

Satan exists but like many subjects in the Bible one must dig a lot to discover truth.  Speaking at the Word as many here do will not reveal this hidden knowledge.

Very few are willing to be lead into truth...for why bother if we know everything!

Insight

What hidden knowledge?  Is it only hidden in your mind?

: gospel  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 16:08:33

: Insight  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 15:31:06

: JohnDB  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 12:29:54
As to the other thought brought up by Insight his concept of Satan being an anthropamorphism is not new or completely outside the box. It was a common belief throughout the ages last being popular in the 1960's. The pharase "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" stems from this theological belief. Many years of debate have centered on this discussion.

Over the years I have had the pleasure of discussing Job in great detail with those who hold to an evil demonic despot.  The arguments for such a being in Job are baseless and without Scriptural support. 

It has always puzzled me why the adversary in Job is not referred to in the New Testament, actually all the wrested passages in Isa and Ezek likewise find no place in the New Testament record. 

I was hoping one here would enter Job with me, but it seems few are willing to do so.  This is not said to imply a challenge John, rather show the shallow depth of knowledge on such an important teaching as the true nature of the adversary in Job.

Insight

Personally I think you have over-thought the topic and if there is some deep hidden mystery concerning Satan that you want to share with us why not start a new thread and establish your premise.

Hopefully and prayerfully it does not bear any resemblance to Mormon doctrine

Looking forward to your new thread meanwhile

Satan is the same adversary spoken of in Job 1,
Ezekiel 28:11-19,
Isaiah 14:12-17,
Luke 4,
Matthew 4,
John 13:27, Luke 22:3, 1 Peter 5:7,8 , James 4:7, Ephesians 6 and Revelations 12:10 and the list goes on 

Gospel,

So the arch enemy of all mankind is confined to 3 chapters in Job, one chapter Ezek and Isa?

You have not thought this through at all...though you will imply you have.

Insight

: Thankfulldad  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 16:09:37

: Insight  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 15:35:50

: Sinead  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 06:09:48
Are you saying that you don't believe satan exists?

Satan exists but like many subjects in the Bible one must dig a lot to discover truth.  Speaking at the Word as many here do will not reveal this hidden knowledge.

Very few are willing to be lead into truth...for why bother if we know everything!

Insight

What hidden knowledge?  Is it only hidden in your mind?

Read Proverbs 1-3 and return with tail between legs.

: Insight  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 16:12:37

: Thankfulldad  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 16:09:37

: Insight  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 15:35:50

: Sinead  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 06:09:48
Are you saying that you don't believe satan exists?

Satan exists but like many subjects in the Bible one must dig a lot to discover truth.  Speaking at the Word as many here do will not reveal this hidden knowledge.

Very few are willing to be lead into truth...for why bother if we know everything!

Insight

What hidden knowledge?  Is it only hidden in your mind?

Read Proverbs 1-3 and return with tail between legs.

What is your religion and where do you come from?

: Thankfulldad  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 16:19:01

: Insight  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 16:12:37

: Thankfulldad  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 16:09:37

: Insight  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 15:35:50

: Sinead  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 06:09:48
Are you saying that you don't believe satan exists?

Satan exists but like many subjects in the Bible one must dig a lot to discover truth.  Speaking at the Word as many here do will not reveal this hidden knowledge.

Very few are willing to be lead into truth...for why bother if we know everything!

Insight

What hidden knowledge?  Is it only hidden in your mind?

Read Proverbs 1-3 and return with tail between legs.

What is your religion and where do you come from?

Yes Insight

at least have the decency and forthrightness to state your true beliefs without playing these coy word games 

If you have something you want to share, promote or assert start a thread and lay out your premise in the Light of Day

Let it be seen for what it is

Otherwise this thread is not about the doctrine you believe about Satan

: gospel  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 16:27:33

: Thankfulldad  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 16:19:01

: Insight  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 16:12:37

: Thankfulldad  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 16:09:37

: Insight  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 15:35:50

: Sinead  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 06:09:48
Are you saying that you don't believe satan exists?

Satan exists but like many subjects in the Bible one must dig a lot to discover truth.  Speaking at the Word as many here do will not reveal this hidden knowledge.

Very few are willing to be lead into truth...for why bother if we know everything!

Insight

What hidden knowledge?  Is it only hidden in your mind?

Read Proverbs 1-3 and return with tail between legs.

What is your religion and where do you come from?

Yes Insight

at least have the decency and forthrightness to state your true beliefs without playing these coy word games  

If you have something you want to share, promote or assert start a thread and lay out your premise in the Light of Day

Let it be seen for what it is

Otherwise this thread is not about the doctrine you believe about Satan

It is enough for you to know that I do not believe in devils, demons and gargoyles.(http://www.katzy.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/diable14.gif)

As per your advice I am starting a series on Job for greater clarity and meaning.

Insight

: Insight  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 16:34:26
It is enough for you to know that I do not believe in devils, demons and gargoyles.(http://www.katzy.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/diable14.gif)

Thanks...yes, that is enough for me not to take you seriously, I will ignor you now...

: Thankfulldad  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 16:38:53

: Insight  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 16:34:26
It is enough for you to know that I do not believe in devils, demons and gargoyles.(http://www.katzy.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/diable14.gif)

Thanks...yes, that is enough for me not to take you seriously, I will ignor you now...

As you wish thankful.

By the way, was it the devils, demons or the gargoyles which offended you?

It speaks volumes of a person's character when one is easily offended.

No doubt you will enter the scene discretely

We shall see.

: Insight  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 16:42:18
By the way, was it the devils, demons or the gargoyles which offended you?

Not offended...just not impressed with your style, which seems to be that of an unbeliever.

: Insight  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 16:42:18

: Thankfulldad  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 16:38:53

: Insight  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 16:34:26
It is enough for you to know that I do not believe in devils, demons and gargoyles.(http://www.katzy.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/diable14.gif)

Thanks...yes, that is enough for me not to take you seriously, I will ignor you now...

As you wish thankful.

By the way, was it the devils, demons or the gargoyles which offended you?

It speaks volumes of a person's character when one is easily offended.

No doubt you will enter the scene discretely

We shall see.

When you start it

Just try not to be so weird and just make your case plainly is our prayer

By the way if you don't believe demons exist you pretty much deserve to be ignored

But lets us see how you present your case

: Thankfulldad  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 16:44:57

: Insight  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 16:42:18
By the way, was it the devils, demons or the gargoyles which offended you?

Not offended...just not impressed with your style, which seems to be that of an unbeliever.

Yes the Pharisees reacted similarly  to Jesus' style. Although, Nicodemus found the strength to come to him in the night.

Like I said thankful, we will talk eventually...

: Insight  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 16:48:47

: Thankfulldad  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 16:44:57

: Insight  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 16:42:18
By the way, was it the devils, demons or the gargoyles which offended you?

Not offended...just not impressed with your style, which seems to be that of an unbeliever.

Yes the Pharisees reacted similarly  to Jesus' style. Although, Nicodemus found the strength to come to him in the night.

Like I said thankful, we will talk eventually...

Why would you compare yourself to Jesus?  You sounds LDS to me...

We may eventually...I will keep an eye on you...

: Insight  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 16:48:47

: Thankfulldad  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 16:44:57

: Insight  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 16:42:18
By the way, was it the devils, demons or the gargoyles which offended you?

Not offended...just not impressed with your style, which seems to be that of an unbeliever.

Yes the Pharisees reacted similarly  to Jesus' style. Although, Nicodemus found the strength to come to him in the night.

Like I said thankful, we will talk eventually...

::backontopic::

Or start that new thread!

You're wasting time here pal when you could be working on a post that explains your no devil doctrine!

: Thankfulldad  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 16:52:05

: Insight  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 16:48:47

: Thankfulldad  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 16:44:57

: Insight  Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 16:42:18
By the way, was it the devils, demons or the gargoyles which offended you?

Not offended...just not impressed with your style, which seems to be that of an unbeliever.

Yes the Pharisees reacted similarly  to Jesus' style. Although, Nicodemus found the strength to come to him in the night.

Like I said thankful, we will talk eventually...

Why would you compare yourself to Jesus?  You sounds LDS to me...

We may eventually...I will keep an eye on you...

Yes please do and hopefully its your Spiritual eye.

 ::backontopic::

We shall eventually get to answer why Job feared a great fear here at http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/non-traditional-theology/job-chastening-and-perfecting-a-son-of-god/

::tippinghat::

If you agree that this is so, then why do you deny that Jesus was able to suffer?

Didn't he hunger and thirst?

Jesus was made a little lower than angels (satan included)
He was manifest to destroy the works of the enemy

Jesus was in a man frame created lower than the Angels,  he defeated satan in our frame, so was tempted and never sinned and regained what was lost through Adams fall.He could do this because he was in a heavenly place on earth because he was seated in heavenly places .So we have a earthly frame empowered by the spirit,  releasing heaven to earth.Could he sin then???? being so full of the Holy Ghost,  the express image of the Father.The person of God in bodily form

We know that he didn't...... so then for us what are the keys to living a sinless life.

Knowing the will of the father,abiding in his word and spending time in his presence.

: gospel  Thu Dec 01, 2011 - 12:20:21
For the thing which I greatly feared has come upon me, and that which I was afraid of has come unto me. Job 3:25

Many people have come to the conclusion that God causes us to go through hardships and affliction to teach and train us, to make us stronger or punish us

Job declared by his own words that he had been living in fear, so much fear that he described it as GREAT fear!

The answer to why Job was in fear in found in Chapter one of Job, you must be willing to look. 

By his own words he we know that he was always afraid, living in fear continually that what eventually happened would happen

You struggle to open the Word Gospel but make many assumptions.  Try quoting the Scriptures for others to see what you are discussing.

Fear belongs to Satan, it is the opposite of Faith

Here is a good example.

Show us where fear belongs to satan?  Do you have a passage in mind?   Or are these simply your unsubstantiated thoughts?

If so, qualify with "my thoughts

(http://img1.prosperent.com/images/250x250/img.costumecraze.com/images/vendors/eloper/A5513-Flamingo-Hat-main.jpg)


MOD HAT ON

Stop flaming one another in this thread or I will be forced to lock it down until everyone calms down a bit. A dissenting view point does not mean pleasant discourse is to be done away with. You may be passionate about your view, but choose to express it in a respectful manner. If someone flames you, press the report button. Do not respond to it.


MOD HAT ON

As for not believing in Satan or demons. I've found that whether he/they exist or not is really inconsequential to e personally. I don't believe Satan has more power than God and I don't believe it is right ascribe such things to him. I would rather live a life focused on Christ than trying avoid the attacks of Satan.

I find I have much more issues that I bring upon myself than Satan ever thought about doing.

: Supplanter  Wed Dec 07, 2011 - 07:34:04
As for not believing in Satan or demons. I've found that whether he/they exist or not is really inconsequential to e personally. I don't believe Satan has more power than God and I don't believe it is right ascribe such things to him. I would rather live a life focused on Christ than trying avoid the attacks of Satan.

I find I have much more issues that I bring upon myself than Satan ever thought about doing.

I like what you said,

I don't believe Satan has more power than God

You're right and Jesus was fully God so there is no way Jesus could have ever failed in the wilderness.

That was Satan verses God, Satan trying to seduce God, Satan trying to entice God, Satan trying to tempt God.

See how easy it is to adhere to conflicting beliefs?   ::shrug::

I would rather live a life focused on Christ than trying avoid the attacks of Satan.

On the other hand YOU, a mere mortal, a flesh and blood human, unlike Jesus you DO NOT HAVE THE FULLNESS OF THE SPIRIT WITHOUT MEASURE

Yet you profess to having no problem denying the power of Satan's influence over you yet....

.... you deny the same thing for Jesus?

Think about it  ::pondering::

: bemark  Wed Dec 07, 2011 - 00:41:28

Jesus was made a little lower than angels (satan included)

True - Born of a woman and unclean.

He was manifest to destroy the works of the enemy

Yes he destroyed the devil, but what is the devil in Heb 2:14,15 that which "had

: Insight  Thu Dec 08, 2011 - 16:40:10

: bemark  Wed Dec 07, 2011 - 00:41:28

Jesus was made a little lower than angels (satan included)

True - Born of a woman and unclean.

He was manifest to destroy the works of the enemy

Yes he destroyed the devil, but what is the devil in Heb 2:14,15 that which "had

Hay Insight have you ever felt the Holy Spirit

Almost every word has error.

Provide a quote for Jesus defeating Satan?


Insight are you for real........come on

You are joking right?

Just a little advice for all of you. Do not engage Insight unless you have seriously studied the Bible and have prepared a strong defense for the Trinity. Also if you don't have the backbone to have your most cherished beliefs challenged then leave him alone. The guy is a worthy opponent and he knows how to engage in a debate. He will leave some of you barren if you don't know your stuff.

He does have a tendency to ignore the most consequential points, which is why I simply had to stop taking our debate seriously. However if you don't eat, breath and sleep theology like some of us Insight will have you dumbfounded.

Although we move his Unitarian beliefs to the Non-Traditional Forum, in reality his beliefs are far older than you all's Protestant theology. His heresy goes back 2000 years to Arius as such you proponents of European-crafted Christianity, who's theology is relatively new, probably aren't used to dealing with such old school heresies.

Just stay sharp and stay rooted. Our Brother Insight is well-versed in his faith.

: LightHammer  Sun Dec 11, 2011 - 02:03:25
Just a little advice for all of you. Do not engage Insight unless you have seriously studied the Bible and have prepared a strong defense for the Trinity. Also if you don't have the backbone to have your most cherished beliefs challenged then leave him alone. The guy is a worthy opponent and he knows how to engage in a debate. He will leave some of you barren if you don't know your stuff.
He does have a tendency to ignore the most consequential points, which is why I simply had to stop taking our debate seriously. However if you don't eat, breath and sleep theology like some of us Insight will have you dumbfounded.
Although we move his Unitarian beliefs to the Non-Traditional Forum, in reality his beliefs are far older than you all's Protestant theology. His heresy goes back 2000 years to Arius as such you proponents of European-crafted Christianity, who's theology is relatively new, probably aren't used to dealing with such old school heresies.
Just stay sharp and stay rooted. Our Brother Insight is well-versed in his faith.

Lighthammer is correct in quoting my beliefs are 2000 years old, however his claims to their origin is far from centre.  My beliefs and their source are directly from the Apostle Paul himself, who was in turn taught by Jesus Christ himself.

One might say I am a third generation believer  ::pondering::

Let's take Benmark's first point as a test of Lighthammer remarks.

: bemark  Sun Dec 11, 2011 - 00:21:01

1) Jesus was not unclean until he took on the sin of the world and Gods wrath was released upon him and not us.

This reeks of the substitution theology which aims to satisfy an angry God.   Let's deal with the first part of Benmarks comment.

Very few Christians here Lighthammer would give these marvellous lessons the time of day nor apply their minds to understand them and no doubt I type in vain but here goes...

"Whatsoever, openeth the womb among the children of Israel, both of man and of beast: it is Mine"

Yahweh decreed this in Exodus 13:2  and was a instruction related to every case where a woman's first child was a male.

If a sister had been born first, the second child was not offered (Luke 2:23). Antitypically, the Lord Jesus, being elevated to the firstborn, was the offering of Yahweh.

No doubt Benmark is lost in the above but we continue in the hope that maybe the message might penetrate the deception that reigns within.

Now when a babe is born of an Israelite, it was unclean:

Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one. Job 14:4

How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman? Job 25:4

All firstborn sons, born of a woman were unholy, until its circumcision, and after its presentation to the LORD.

"Every male that openeth the womb "shall be

: LightHammer  Sun Dec 11, 2011 - 02:03:25
Just a little advice for all of you. Do not engage Insight unless you have seriously studied the Bible and have prepared a strong defense for the Trinity. Also if you don't have the backbone to have your most cherished beliefs challenged then leave him alone. The guy is a worthy opponent and he knows how to engage in a debate. He will leave some of you barren if you don't know your stuff.

He does have a tendency to ignore the most consequential points, which is why I simply had to stop taking our debate seriously. However if you don't eat, breath and sleep theology like some of us Insight will have you dumbfounded.

Although we move his Unitarian beliefs to the Non-Traditional Forum, in reality his beliefs are far older than you all's Protestant theology. His heresy goes back 2000 years to Arius as such you proponents of European-crafted Christianity, who's theology is relatively new, probably aren't used to dealing with such old school heresies.

Just stay sharp and stay rooted. Our Brother Insight is well-versed in his faith.

Lighthammer,

We did not formerly end our discussion on the Trinity, though I felt it had a great deal further to go before we could reach a sound conclusion. 

Needless to say I enjoyed it immensely.

In all my years of discussing the wonders of Bible truths I have never come across a Trinitarian (especially a Catholic!) who has held himself which such integrity. 

In the Masters Service

Insight

: Insight  Sun Dec 11, 2011 - 05:12:53

: LightHammer  Sun Dec 11, 2011 - 02:03:25
Just a little advice for all of you. Do not engage Insight unless you have seriously studied the Bible and have prepared a strong defense for the Trinity. Also if you don't have the backbone to have your most cherished beliefs challenged then leave him alone. The guy is a worthy opponent and he knows how to engage in a debate. He will leave some of you barren if you don't know your stuff.

He does have a tendency to ignore the most consequential points, which is why I simply had to stop taking our debate seriously. However if you don't eat, breath and sleep theology like some of us Insight will have you dumbfounded.

Although we move his Unitarian beliefs to the Non-Traditional Forum, in reality his beliefs are far older than you all's Protestant theology. His heresy goes back 2000 years to Arius as such you proponents of European-crafted Christianity, who's theology is relatively new, probably aren't used to dealing with such old school heresies.

Just stay sharp and stay rooted. Our Brother Insight is well-versed in his faith.

Lighthammer,

We did not formerly end our discussion on the Trinity, though I felt it had a great deal further to go before we could reach a sound conclusion. 

Needless to say I enjoyed it immensely.

In all my years of discussing the wonders of Bible truths I have never come across a Trinitarian (especially a Catholic!) who has held himself which such integrity. 

In the Masters Service

Insight

Thank you Brother.

I wish I could say the "in all my years" line but I'm only 20 so it wouldn't hold any real weight.lol

If you rerelease the thread you will see where I stated early on that I had no intention of trying to win an argument with you. I was interested to test the limits of our ancient controversy. Repelling Medieval Europen spin offs of Christianity gets kind of boring after a while. Once I realized our discussion had ran its course I let it die but I think I might check it out and see if there are any points left to address. Maybe I can sway you after all.lol

I didn't mean to derail this thread so I'll leave you to the Protestants.

May the Pece of the Holy Trinity Be With You

P.S.

Try not to be so shocked that we Catholics know our stuff. Granted I have no life but we go hard in the paint as a whole.

: Insight  Sun Dec 11, 2011 - 04:48:54

: LightHammer  Sun Dec 11, 2011 - 02:03:25
Just a little advice for all of you. Do not engage Insight unless you have seriously studied the Bible and have prepared a strong defense for the Trinity. Also if you don't have the backbone to have your most cherished beliefs challenged then leave him alone. The guy is a worthy opponent and he knows how to engage in a debate. He will leave some of you barren if you don't know your stuff.
He does have a tendency to ignore the most consequential points, which is why I simply had to stop taking our debate seriously. However if you don't eat, breath and sleep theology like some of us Insight will have you dumbfounded.
Although we move his Unitarian beliefs to the Non-Traditional Forum, in reality his beliefs are far older than you all's Protestant theology. His heresy goes back 2000 years to Arius as such you proponents of European-crafted Christianity, who's theology is relatively new, probably aren't used to dealing with such old school heresies.
Just stay sharp and stay rooted. Our Brother Insight is well-versed in his faith.

Lighthammer is correct in quoting my beliefs are 2000 years old, however his claims to their origin is far from centre.  My beliefs and their source are directly from the Apostle Paul himself, who was in turn taught by Jesus Christ himself.

One might say I am a third generation believer  ::pondering::

Let's take Benmark's first point as a test of Lighthammer remarks.

: bemark  Sun Dec 11, 2011 - 00:21:01

1) Jesus was not unclean until he took on the sin of the world and Gods wrath was released upon him and not us.

This reeks of the substitution theology which aims to satisfy an angry God.   Let's deal with the first part of Benmarks comment.

Very few Christians here Lighthammer would give these marvellous lessons the time of day nor apply their minds to understand them and no doubt I type in vain but here goes...

"Whatsoever, openeth the womb among the children of Israel, both of man and of beast: it is Mine"

Yahweh decreed this in Exodus 13:2  and was a instruction related to every case where a woman's first child was a male.

If a sister had been born first, the second child was not offered (Luke 2:23). Antitypically, the Lord Jesus, being elevated to the firstborn, was the offering of Yahweh.

No doubt Benmark is lost in the above but we continue in the hope that maybe the message might penetrate the deception that reigns within.

Now when a babe is born of an Israelite, it was unclean:

Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one. Job 14:4

How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman? Job 25:4

All firstborn sons, born of a woman were unholy, until its circumcision, and after its presentation to the LORD.

"Every male that openeth the womb "shall be

: bemark  Sun Dec 11, 2011 - 17:16:19

That's a big post.

Tell me how you explain this.

Right from Adam there was his nature passed down. The sins of the father Mary had the Holy Spirit overshadow her so there was no inherited sin nature in his flesh soul or spirit.

He was completely clean

You fail to understand two clear points.

1 Mary was a sinner and her son was born with her nature (see Matt 1:1 for connection) Jesus was the son of sinners! i.e Son of Man.

2. The conception was holy not the birth. The birth was no different to any other babe born in Israel.  Mary was unclean afterwards and so was Jesus, until he was circumcised and offered appropriately. However his nature was always viewed as unclean as death reign in his members.

Proof text:

Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

Go and learn what this means:

What happened when one touched death under the law?

Could you answer also why Did sin enter through Adam and not Eve.Yes I will look up those points as well

: bemark  Sun Dec 11, 2011 - 17:43:51
Could you answer also why Did sin enter through Adam and not Eve.Yes I will look up those points as well

Good question!

Proof Text's

Sorry insight I don't see Jesus as a sinner or had the sin nature passed down from Adam through Mary .I believe that he could and did make choices in his earthy frame.

Was the honey the unclean thing in the dead lion.

You are saying because it was in there it makes it so by default ?

The circumcision along with the Baptism would have been to fulfill Gods word and fulfill all righteousness.Why was John freaking out so much?

13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. 14 And John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?" 15 But Jesus answered and said to him, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed Him
Matt 3:13-15 (NKJV)

And the Adam and Eve thing still leaves me thinking why the Male.They both received Judgement but it does gets passed down through the Male.

: bemark  Sun Dec 11, 2011 - 19:25:15

Sorry insight I don't see Jesus as a sinner

Jesus was not a sinner (morally speaking)!

or had the sin nature passed down from Adam through Mary .

This is a statement of denial.

I believe that he could and did make choices in his earthy frame.

This is a contradiction to your above statement – this often happens when one is seeking to uphold church doctrine and not allowing the Word to guide them into truth.

Was the honey the unclean thing in the dead lion.

I doubt you understand the lessons hidden there gauging from this misapplied connection.

You are saying because it was in there it makes it so by default ?


The circumcision along with the Baptism would have been to fulfill Gods word and fulfill all righteousness.Why was John freaking out so much?

Yes it comfortable to distance these acts of obedience away from Jesus himself and thereby removing any personal need of his.

Very dangerous as you have remove his intimate involvement in not only redeeming himself from death's dominion but removed yourself from his offering.

Salvation is immediately lost should one hold to these beliefs.

13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. 14 And John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?" 15 But Jesus answered and said to him, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed Him

Matt 3:13-15 (NKJV)

Luke 12:50 speaks to the agony every day of his life in being baptised through fire.  You may not understand how Jesus suffered...it's a façade of pretence which leads you to not identify with his sufferings in the flesh as being real – for how can an all-powerful God suffering in weak feeble flesh. All his prayers for deliverance we not valid because he was actual very God.    

You believe in the great hoax known to man.

Imagine that for a moment!

And the Adam and Eve thing still leaves me thinking why the Male. They both received Judgement but it does gets passed down through the Male.

Because one Adam symbolises a nature prone to sin and death and the second Adam symbolise the victory over deaths power.

That's why Jesus was born of a woman (sinner) and is called the son of Abraham and David.

But these lessons are lost to you while you hold firmly to Trinitarian doctrine.

Forever dark. ::frown::

Insight

"Jesus was not a sinner (morally speaking)!"


Well what do you mean by that.Did he commit any sins?

And if so what where they?

Stay sharp.

And have fun doing it.:)

Insight you got me opening up the word all over the place and your comments towards me in places sure did bring a smile to my face.Bless you all



C U all later.

: bemark  Sun Dec 11, 2011 - 19:55:07
"Jesus was not a sinner (morally speaking)!"


Well what do you mean by that.Did he commit any sins?

And if so what where they?

Bemark,

No he did not commit sins but as Paul said Jesus had "need" to offer of himself and not just for you.

I am guiding you ever so gently to see what that "need" was.

For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

Lighthammer will not venture into this verse as he knows where it leads and if accepted his theology will fall apart very quickly.

You must explain to me what Paul here means by Jesus needing to offer something for himself?

Insight

: Insight  Sun Dec 11, 2011 - 20:56:47

: bemark  Sun Dec 11, 2011 - 19:55:07
"Jesus was not a sinner (morally speaking)!"


Well what do you mean by that.Did he commit any sins?

And if so what where they?

Bemark,

No he did not commit sins but as Paul said Jesus had "need" to offer of himself and not just for you.

I am guiding you ever so gently to see what that "need" was.

For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

Lighthammer will not venture into this verse as he knows where it leads and if accepted his theology will fall apart very quickly.

You must explain to me what Paul here means by Jesus needing to offer something for himself?

Insight

Haha don't try to bait me with these sideways Chicago-style remarks. If you want to dialogue all you have to do is make thread and ask.

: LightHammer  Sun Dec 11, 2011 - 21:06:33

: Insight  Sun Dec 11, 2011 - 20:56:47

: bemark  Sun Dec 11, 2011 - 19:55:07
"Jesus was not a sinner (morally speaking)!"


Well what do you mean by that.Did he commit any sins?

And if so what where they?

Bemark,

No he did not commit sins but as Paul said Jesus had "need" to offer of himself and not just for you.

I am guiding you ever so gently to see what that "need" was.

For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

Lighthammer will not venture into this verse as he knows where it leads and if accepted his theology will fall apart very quickly.

You must explain to me what Paul here means by Jesus needing to offer something for himself?

Insight

Haha don't try to bait me with these sideways Chicago-style remarks. If you want to dialogue all you have to do is make thread and ask.

Stay sharp!

: Insight  Sun Dec 11, 2011 - 21:13:36

: LightHammer  Sun Dec 11, 2011 - 21:06:33

: Insight  Sun Dec 11, 2011 - 20:56:47

: bemark  Sun Dec 11, 2011 - 19:55:07
"Jesus was not a sinner (morally speaking)!"


Well what do you mean by that.Did he commit any sins?

And if so what where they?

Bemark,

No he did not commit sins but as Paul said Jesus had "need" to offer of himself and not just for you.

I am guiding you ever so gently to see what that "need" was.

For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

Lighthammer will not venture into this verse as he knows where it leads and if accepted his theology will fall apart very quickly.

You must explain to me what Paul here means by Jesus needing to offer something for himself?

Insight

Haha don't try to bait me with these sideways Chicago-style remarks. If you want to dialogue all you have to do is make thread and ask.

Stay sharp!

Whoa whoa I want 25 cents every time you say that phrase.lol

: LightHammer  Sun Dec 11, 2011 - 21:18:50

: Insight  Sun Dec 11, 2011 - 21:13:36

: LightHammer  Sun Dec 11, 2011 - 21:06:33

: Insight  Sun Dec 11, 2011 - 20:56:47

: bemark  Sun Dec 11, 2011 - 19:55:07
"Jesus was not a sinner (morally speaking)!"


Well what do you mean by that.Did he commit any sins?

And if so what where they?

Bemark,

No he did not commit sins but as Paul said Jesus had "need" to offer of himself and not just for you.

I am guiding you ever so gently to see what that "need" was.

For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

Lighthammer will not venture into this verse as he knows where it leads and if accepted his theology will fall apart very quickly.

You must explain to me what Paul here means by Jesus needing to offer something for himself?

Insight

Haha don't try to bait me with these sideways Chicago-style remarks. If you want to dialogue all you have to do is make thread and ask.

Stay sharp!

Whoa whoa I want 25 cents every time you say that phrase.lol

I borrowed it thank you  ::tippinghat::

But lets stay focused also!

Bemark,

No he did not commit sins but as Paul said Jesus had "need" to offer of himself and not just for you.

I am guiding you ever so gently to see what that "need" was.

For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

Lighthammer will not venture into this verse as he knows where it leads and if accepted his theology will fall apart very quickly.

You must explain to me what Paul here means by Jesus needing to offer something for himself?

Insight

: Insight  Sun Dec 11, 2011 - 21:23:30
But lets stay focused also!

Bemark,

No he did not commit sins but as Paul said Jesus had "need" to offer of himself and not just for you.

I am guiding you ever so gently to see what that "need" was.

For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

Lighthammer will not venture into this verse as he knows where it leads and if accepted his theology will fall apart very quickly.

You must explain to me what Paul here means by Jesus needing to offer something for himself?

Insight

Well first off the verse is not saying the high priest offers on his own behalf. It is simply saying that he must have something to offer.

You're misreading the quote but if you check Hebrews you will see where Christ as High Priest does nothing for Hinself but for us. So basically you point voided due to improper comprehension on the verse is proven false even when considered worthy of further scrutiny.

Of course the phrase "this man" is referring to Jesus himself.

Heb 5:7 may have something to do with it?

Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

Did Jesus need redemption?

I can hear you all shout YES!

But he never needed reconciling! For obvious reasons.  

: LightHammer  Sun Dec 11, 2011 - 21:29:18

: Insight  Sun Dec 11, 2011 - 21:23:30
But lets stay focused also!

Bemark,

No he did not commit sins but as Paul said Jesus had "need" to offer of himself and not just for you.

I am guiding you ever so gently to see what that "need" was.

For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

Lighthammer will not venture into this verse as he knows where it leads and if accepted his theology will fall apart very quickly.

You must explain to me what Paul here means by Jesus needing to offer something for himself?

Insight

Well first off the verse is not saying the high priest offers on his own behalf. It is simply saying that he must have something to offer.

You're misreading the quote but if you check Hebrews you will see where Christ as High Priest does nothing for Hinself but for us. So basically you point voided due to improper comprehension on the verse is proven false even when considered worthy of further scrutiny.

(Jesus) who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. Heb 7:27

How many times did he offer for himself?
How many times did he offer for the people?

If you answered once you would be correct.

insight

"He (Jesus) put away sin  by the sacrifice of himself" (Heb. 9:26).

What else did he put away "in" his body?

When the nature of Christ is fully understood the Trinity falls away very quickly as how can you have God in His Holiness dwelling in sin's flesh?

You could ask no Christian to believe such an abhorrent teaching as the Father dwelling in the unclean.

Unclean to mean:

1. Born of a woman (from the womb)

2. Covered in blood both mother and child

3. Circumcised on the eight day - cutting away the flesh of his nature!

4. Baptism - showing forth the manner of crucifying his fleshly desires every day until he finally allowed his body to be crucified on a tree

5. Touching death he became unclean but God did the following:

Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

Maybe now dear readers you will understand how it can be said of Jesus -

He is the firstborn of many brothers and sisters....

Insight

Gospel,

As you know we answered this posts OP here at:

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/non-traditional-theology/job-chastening-and-perfecting-a-son-of-god/75/

I am conscious this thread has somewhat been hijack but for good reason.

Insight

: Insight  Sun Dec 11, 2011 - 20:56:47

: bemark  Sun Dec 11, 2011 - 19:55:07
"Jesus was not a sinner (morally speaking)!"


Well what do you mean by that.Did he commit any sins?

And if so what where they?

Bemark,

No he did not commit sins but as Paul said Jesus had "need" to offer of himself and not just for you.

I am guiding you ever so gently to see what that "need" was.

For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

Lighthammer will not venture into this verse as he knows where it leads and if accepted his theology will fall apart very quickly.

You must explain to me what Paul here means by Jesus needing to offer something for himself?

Insight

23 Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing. 24 But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. 26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people's, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.
Heb 7:22-28 (NKJV)

He offered up himself as he was holy harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners.


The second part was the other priests as they where defiled so had to sort themselves out first.

19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you
1 Peter 1:19-20 (NKJV)

Also this one as well

And the sins came upon him when he was on the tree

21 For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps:
22 "Who committed no sin,

Nor was deceit found in His mouth";
23 who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously; 24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness--by whose stripes you were healed. 25 For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
1 Peter 2:21-25 (NKJV)

And the Baby unclean thing got me thinking as well but then we have this as well

21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
2 Cor 5:20-21 (NKJV)

Bemark,

You are quoting passages of what Jesus "became" rather than looking at what he 'overcame'.

There is little point in going any further or deeper into the Word if you will deny he overcame sins flesh.

You behold a victorious Christ but deny exactly what he became victorious over?  ::pondering::

Until you can aptly explain his enemy (Gal 4:4; Matt 1:1; *Gal 5:24) you will continue to fool yourself into thinking you know Jesus when the reality is you will never get close to him with this current mindset.

From my perspective you are approaching the passages with Trinity in mind and trying to make sense of them through these dark filters.

The results will be a blurred vision.

Insight

: bemark  Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 01:41:24
19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you
1 Peter 1:19-20 (NKJV)

Also this one as well

Again you have shown the clean nature of his blood after he crucified the flesh and its lusts.

What did he personally overcome to provide us cleansing blood?

Why does the blood now have power to save?

What was achieved in his body and blood?

Much for you to consider.

Insight

: bemark  Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 01:59:10
And the Baby unclean thing got me thinking as well but then we have this as well

21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
2 Cor 5:20-21 (NKJV)

This passage is showing you that God made him to be flesh (sin) for us.  He raised up a son through a fallen and cursed stock of people - read Matt 1:1 why Son of Sinners?

Amazing how few Christians don't even understands the first verse of the New Testament and yet they think they know the Gospel.

::frown::

: bemark  Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 01:50:49
And the sins came upon him when he was on the tree

21 For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps:
22 "Who committed no sin,

Nor was deceit found in His mouth";
23 who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously; 24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness--by whose stripes you were healed. 25 For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
1 Peter 2:21-25 (NKJV)

Answer me this Bemark and dont be shy...

How did Jesus bore our sins in His own body on the tree?

Explain exactly how this was achieved in the body of Jesus Christ

I look forward to your answer!

insight

: Insight  Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 02:50:02

: bemark  Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 01:59:10
And the Baby unclean thing got me thinking as well but then we have this as well

21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
2 Cor 5:20-21 (NKJV)

This passage is showing you that God made him to be flesh (sin) for us.  He raised up a son through a fallen and cursed stock of people - read Matt 1:1 why Son of Sinners?

Amazing how few Christians don't even understands the first verse of the New Testament and yet they think they know the Gospel.

::frown::


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Maybe this as well




1. The book of the generation. This is the proper title of the chapter. It is the same as to say, "The account of the ancestry or family, or the genealogical table of Jesus Christ." The phrase is common in Jewish writings. Compare Genesis 5:1, "This is the book of the generations of Adam," that is, the genealogical table of the family or descendants of Adam. See also Genesis 6:9. The Jews, moreover, as we do, kept such tables of their own families, and it is probable that this was copied from the record of the family of Joseph.

Jesus. See Matthew 1:21.

Christ. The word Christ is a Greek word, Χριστός Christos, signifying anointed. The Hebrew word ‏מַשִּיחַ‎ mâshîyach signifying the same is Messiah. Hence, Jesus is called either the Messiah, or the Christ, meaning the same thing. The Jews speak of the Messiah; Christians speak of him as the Christ. Anciently, when kings and priests were set apart to their office, they were anointed with oil, Leviticus 4:3, 6:20, Exodus 28:41, 29:7, 1 Samuel 9:16, 15:1, 2 Samuel 23:1. To anoint, therefore, means often the same as to consecrate, or set apart to any office. Thence those thus set apart are said to be anointed, or the anointed of God. It is for this reason that the name is given to the Lord Jesus, Daniel 9:24. He was set apart by God to be the King, and High Priest, and Prophet of his people. Anointing with oil was, moreover, supposed to be emblematic of the influences of the Holy Spirit; and as God gave him the Spirit without measure, (John 3:34) so he is called peculiarly the Anointed of God.

The Son of David, The word son, among the Jews, had a great variety of significations. It means, literally, a son; then a grandson; a descendant; an adopted son; a disciple, or one who is an object of tender affection-one who is to us as a son. In this place it means a descendant of David; or one who was of the family of David. It was important to trace the genealogy of Jesus up to David, because the promise had been made that the Messiah should be of his family, and all the Jews expected it would be so. It would be impossible, therefore, to convince a Jew that Jesus was the Messiah, unless it could be shown that he was descended from David. See Jeremiah 23:5 Psalms 132:10,11; compared with Acts 13:23, John 7:42.

The Son of Abraham. The descendant of Abraham. The promise was made to Abraham also. See Genesis 12:3; 21:12; comp. Hebrews 11:13; Galatians 3:16. The Jews expected that the Messiah would be descended from him; and it was important, therefore, to trace the genealogy up to him also. Though Jesus was of humble birth, yet he was descended from most illustrious ancestors. Abraham, the father of the faithful-" the beauteous model of an eastern prince,"-and David, the sweet psalmist of Israel, the conqueror, the magnificent and victorious leader of the people of God, were both among his ancestors. From these two persons, the most eminent for piety, and the most renowned for their excellencies of all the men of antiquity, sacred or profane, the Lord Jesus was descended; and though his birth and life were humble, yet they who regard an illustrious descent as of value, may find here all that is to be admired in piety, purity, patriotism, splendour, dignity, and renown.

(*) "generation of Jesus Christ" Luke 3:33
(*) "son of David" Psalms 132:11, Matthew 22:45, Acts 2:30
(*) "son of Abraham" Genesis 22:18, Galatians 3:16
—Barnes' Notes on the New Testament

: bemark  Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 04:33:38

: Insight  Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 02:50:02

: bemark  Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 01:59:10
And the Baby unclean thing got me thinking as well but then we have this as well

21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
2 Cor 5:20-21 (NKJV)

This passage is showing you that God made him to be flesh (sin) for us.  He raised up a son through a fallen and cursed stock of people - read Matt 1:1 why Son of Sinners?

Amazing how few Christians don't even understands the first verse of the New Testament and yet they think they know the Gospel.

::frown::


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Maybe this as well




1. The book of the generation. This is the proper title of the chapter. It is the same as to say, "The account of the ancestry or family, or the genealogical table of Jesus Christ." The phrase is common in Jewish writings. Compare Genesis 5:1, "This is the book of the generations of Adam," that is, the genealogical table of the family or descendants of Adam. See also Genesis 6:9. The Jews, moreover, as we do, kept such tables of their own families, and it is probable that this was copied from the record of the family of Joseph.

Jesus. See Matthew 1:21.

Christ. The word Christ is a Greek word, Χριστός Christos, signifying anointed. The Hebrew word ‏מַשִּיחַ‎ mâshîyach signifying the same is Messiah. Hence, Jesus is called either the Messiah, or the Christ, meaning the same thing. The Jews speak of the Messiah; Christians speak of him as the Christ. Anciently, when kings and priests were set apart to their office, they were anointed with oil, Leviticus 4:3, 6:20, Exodus 28:41, 29:7, 1 Samuel 9:16, 15:1, 2 Samuel 23:1. To anoint, therefore, means often the same as to consecrate, or set apart to any office. Thence those thus set apart are said to be anointed, or the anointed of God. It is for this reason that the name is given to the Lord Jesus, Daniel 9:24. He was set apart by God to be the King, and High Priest, and Prophet of his people. Anointing with oil was, moreover, supposed to be emblematic of the influences of the Holy Spirit; and as God gave him the Spirit without measure, (John 3:34) so he is called peculiarly the Anointed of God.

The Son of David, The word son, among the Jews, had a great variety of significations. It means, literally, a son; then a grandson; a descendant; an adopted son; a disciple, or one who is an object of tender affection-one who is to us as a son. In this place it means a descendant of David; or one who was of the family of David. It was important to trace the genealogy of Jesus up to David, because the promise had been made that the Messiah should be of his family, and all the Jews expected it would be so. It would be impossible, therefore, to convince a Jew that Jesus was the Messiah, unless it could be shown that he was descended from David. See Jeremiah 23:5 Psalms 132:10,11; compared with Acts 13:23, John 7:42.

The Son of Abraham. The descendant of Abraham. The promise was made to Abraham also. See Genesis 12:3; 21:12; comp. Hebrews 11:13; Galatians 3:16. The Jews expected that the Messiah would be descended from him; and it was important, therefore, to trace the genealogy up to him also. Though Jesus was of humble birth, yet he was descended from most illustrious ancestors. Abraham, the father of the faithful-" the beauteous model of an eastern prince,"-and David, the sweet psalmist of Israel, the conqueror, the magnificent and victorious leader of the people of God, were both among his ancestors. From these two persons, the most eminent for piety, and the most renowned for their excellencies of all the men of antiquity, sacred or profane, the Lord Jesus was descended; and though his birth and life were humble, yet they who regard an illustrious descent as of value, may find here all that is to be admired in piety, purity, patriotism, splendour, dignity, and renown.

(*) "generation of Jesus Christ" Luke 3:33
(*) "son of David" Psalms 132:11, Matthew 22:45, Acts 2:30
(*) "son of Abraham" Genesis 22:18, Galatians 3:16
—Barnes' Notes on the New Testament

Bemark, I do not know where you got this work from but did you notice they could not bring themselves to admit both Abraham and David were sinners and that Jesus was raised up out of their seed?

They use terms like "a descendant"  AND "It was important to trace the genealogy of Jesus up to David! and yet what does Paul draw your attention too you ask?

Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; Rom 1:3

Maybe you should try thinking for yourself.

Insight

Bemark,

What type of flesh did Jesus have?

Could it be tempted?
Could it sin?
Could it die of old age?
Could it hunger?
Could it thirst?
Could it feel pain and sorrow?
Could it suffer?

And what body has the Lord today seeing his hands and feet still bare the nail marks?

More for you to ponder!

Insight

: Insight  Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 05:13:17
Bemark,

What type of flesh did Jesus have?

Could it be tempted?
Could it sin?
Could it die of old age?
Could it hunger?
Could it thirst?
Could it feel pain and sorrow?
Could it suffer?

And what body has the Lord today seeing his hands and feet still bare the nail marks?

More for you to ponder!

Insight

Yeah of coarse he could be tempted and was made like us but with no sin , but he also gave us a key to how not to enter temptation.He never opened the door and walked in and where there is no open door no one else can enter as well.He the devil has nothing in him.By prayer he endured but the disciples that where with him fell asleep under the weight of it.

39 Coming out, He went to the Mount of Olives, as He was accustomed, and His disciples also followed Him. 40 When He came to the place, He said to them, "Pray that you may not enter into temptation." 41 And He was withdrawn from them about a stone's throw, and He knelt down and prayed, 42 saying, "Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done." 43 Then an angel appeared to Him from heaven, strengthening Him. 44 And being in agony, He prayed more earnestly. Then His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground.[8
Luke 22:39-44 (NKJV)

: Insight  Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 05:13:17
Bemark,

What type of flesh did Jesus have?

Could it be tempted?
Could it sin?
Could it die of old age?
Could it hunger?
Could it thirst?
Could it feel pain and sorrow?
Could it suffer?

And what body has the Lord today seeing his hands and feet still bare the nail marks?

More for you to ponder!

Insight

Do you think there is a physical throne in Heaven that Jesus is sitting on?  How about God?  Is He a physical entity also sitting on His throne with Jesus sitting at His right hand?

: Insight  Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 05:09:41

: bemark  Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 04:33:38

: Insight  Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 02:50:02

: bemark  Mon Dec 12, 2011 - 01:59:10
And the Baby unclean thing got me thinking as well but then we have this as well

21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
2 Cor 5:20-21 (NKJV)

This passage is showing you that God made him to be flesh (sin) for us.  He raised up a son through a fallen and cursed stock of people - read Matt 1:1 why Son of Sinners?

Amazing how few Christians don't even understands the first verse of the New Testament and yet they think they know the Gospel.

::frown::


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Maybe this as well




1. The book of the generation. This is the proper title of the chapter. It is the same as to say, "The account of the ancestry or family, or the genealogical table of Jesus Christ." The phrase is common in Jewish writings. Compare Genesis 5:1, "This is the book of the generations of Adam," that is, the genealogical table of the family or descendants of Adam. See also Genesis 6:9. The Jews, moreover, as we do, kept such tables of their own families, and it is probable that this was copied from the record of the family of Joseph.

Jesus. See Matthew 1:21.

Christ. The word Christ is a Greek word, Χριστός Christos, signifying anointed. The Hebrew word ‏מַשִּיחַ‎ mâshîyach signifying the same is Messiah. Hence, Jesus is called either the Messiah, or the Christ, meaning the same thing. The Jews speak of the Messiah; Christians speak of him as the Christ. Anciently, when kings and priests were set apart to their office, they were anointed with oil, Leviticus 4:3, 6:20, Exodus 28:41, 29:7, 1 Samuel 9:16, 15:1, 2 Samuel 23:1. To anoint, therefore, means often the same as to consecrate, or set apart to any office. Thence those thus set apart are said to be anointed, or the anointed of God. It is for this reason that the name is given to the Lord Jesus, Daniel 9:24. He was set apart by God to be the King, and High Priest, and Prophet of his people. Anointing with oil was, moreover, supposed to be emblematic of the influences of the Holy Spirit; and as God gave him the Spirit without measure, (John 3:34) so he is called peculiarly the Anointed of God.

The Son of David, The word son, among the Jews, had a great variety of significations. It means, literally, a son; then a grandson; a descendant; an adopted son; a disciple, or one who is an object of tender affection-one who is to us as a son. In this place it means a descendant of David; or one who was of the family of David. It was important to trace the genealogy of Jesus up to David, because the promise had been made that the Messiah should be of his family, and all the Jews expected it would be so. It would be impossible, therefore, to convince a Jew that Jesus was the Messiah, unless it could be shown that he was descended from David. See Jeremiah 23:5 Psalms 132:10,11; compared with Acts 13:23, John 7:42.

The Son of Abraham. The descendant of Abraham. The promise was made to Abraham also. See Genesis 12:3; 21:12; comp. Hebrews 11:13; Galatians 3:16. The Jews expected that the Messiah would be descended from him; and it was important, therefore, to trace the genealogy up to him also. Though Jesus was of humble birth, yet he was descended from most illustrious ancestors. Abraham, the father of the faithful-" the beauteous model of an eastern prince,"-and David, the sweet psalmist of Israel, the conqueror, the magnificent and victorious leader of the people of God, were both among his ancestors. From these two persons, the most eminent for piety, and the most renowned for their excellencies of all the men of antiquity, sacred or profane, the Lord Jesus was descended; and though his birth and life were humble, yet they who regard an illustrious descent as of value, may find here all that is to be admired in piety, purity, patriotism, splendour, dignity, and renown.

(*) "generation of Jesus Christ" Luke 3:33
(*) "son of David" Psalms 132:11, Matthew 22:45, Acts 2:30
(*) "son of Abraham" Genesis 22:18, Galatians 3:16
—Barnes' Notes on the New Testament

Bemark, I do not know where you got this work from but did you notice they could not bring themselves to admit both Abraham and David were sinners and that Jesus was raised up out of their seed?

They use terms like "a descendant"  AND "It was important to trace the genealogy of Jesus up to David! and yet what does Paul draw your attention too you ask?

Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; Rom 1:3

Maybe you should try thinking for yourself.

Insight

Yes but sometimes its just good to cut and paste.

Verse 3. Concerning his Son. This is connected with the first verse, with the word gospel. The gospel of God concerning his Son. The design of the gospel was to make a communication relative to his Son Jesus Christ. This is the whole of it. There is no good news to man respecting salvation except that which comes by Jesus Christ.

Which was made. The word translated was made means, usually, to be, or to become. It is used, however, in the sense of being born. Thus, Galatians 4:4, "God sent forth his Son made of a woman," born of a woman. John 8:58, "Before Abraham was [born,] I am." In this sense it seems to be used here-who was born, or descended from the seed of David.

Of the seed of David. Of the posterity or lineage of David. He was a descendant of David. David was perhaps the most illustrious of the kings of Israel. The promise to him was, that there should not fail a man to sit on his throne, 1 Kings 2:4, 8:25, 9:5, 2 Chronicles 6:16. This ancient promise was understood as referring to the Messiah; and hence in the New Testament he is called the descendant of David, and so much pains is taken to show that he was of his line, Luke 1:27, Matthew 9:27, 15:22, 12:23 Matthew 21:9,15, 22:42,45, John 7:42, 2 Timothy 2:8. As the Jews universally believed that the Messiah would be descended from David, John 7:42, it was of great importance for the sacred writers to make it out clearly that Jesus of Nazareth was of that line and family. Hence it happened, that though our Saviour was humble, and poor, and obscure, yet he had that on which no small part of the world have been accustomed so much to pride themselves-an illustrious ancestry. To a Jew there could be scarcely any honour so high as to be descended from the best of their kings; and it shows how little the Lord Jesus esteemed the honours of this world, that he could always evince his deep humility in circumstances where men are usually proud; and that when he spoke of the honours of this world, and told how little they were worth, he was not denouncing that which was not within his reach.

According to the flesh. The word flesh-σαρξ-is used in the Scriptures in a great variety of significations.

(1.) It denotes, as with us, the flesh literally of any living being. Luke 24:39, "A spirit hath not flesh and bones," etc.

(2.) The animal system, the body, including flesh and bones, the visible part of man, in distinction from the invisible, or the soul. Acts 2:31, "Neither did his flesh" (his body) "see corruption." 1 Corinthians 5:5, 15:39.

(3.) The man, the whole animated system, body and soul. Romans 8:3, "In the likeness of sinful flesh." 1 Corinthians 15:50; Matthew 16:17; Luke 3:6.

(4.) Human nature. As a man. Thus, Acts 2:30, "God had sworn with an oath that of the fruit of his loins according to the flesh, [i.e., in his human nature,] he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne." Romans 9:5, "Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever." The same is its meaning here. He was a descendant of David in his human nature, or as a man. This implies, of course, that he had another nature besides his human; or that, while he was a man, he was also something else; that there was a nature in which he was not descended from David. That this is its meaning will still further appear by the following observations.

(1.) The apostle expressly makes a contrast between his condition according to the flesh, and that according to the spirit of holiness.

(2.) The expression, "according to the flesh," is applied to no other one in the New Testament but to Jesus Christ. Though the word flesh often occurs, and is often used to denote man, yet the peculiar expression according to the flesh occurs in no other connexion. In all the Scriptures it is never said of any prophet or apostle, any lawgiver or king, or any man in any capacity, that he came in the flesh, or that he was descended from certain ancestors according to the flesh. Nor is such an expression ever used anywhere else. If it were applied to a mere man, we should instantly ask in what other way could he come than in the flesh? Has he a higher nature? Is he an angel, or a seraph? The expression would be unmeaning. And when, therefore, it is applied to Jesus Christ, it implies, if language has any meaning, that there was a sense in which Jesus was not descended from David. What that was appears in the next verse.

(*) "was made" Psalms 89:36

—Barnes' Notes on the New Testament

Verse 4. And declared. In the margin, determined. τουορισθεντος. The ancient Syriac has, "And he was known to be the Son of God by might and by the Holy Spirit, who rose from the house of the dead." The Latin Vulgate, "Who was predestinated the Son of God," etc. The Arabic, "The Son of God destined by power peculiar to the Holy Spirit," etc. The word translated "declared to be" means, properly, to bound, to fix limits to, as to a field, to determine its proper limits or boundaries, to define, etc. Acts 17:26, "And hath determined the bounds of their habitation." Hence it means, to determine, constitute, ordain, decree; i.e., to fix or designate the proper boundaries of a truth, or a doctrine; to distinguish its lines and marks from error; or to show or declare a thing to be so by any action. Luke 22:22, "The Son of man goeth as it was determined," as it was fixed, purposed, defined, in the purpose of God, and declared in the prophets. Acts 2:23, "Him being delivered by the determinate counsel," the definite, constituted will, or design of God. Acts 4:28, Hebrews 4:7, "He limiteth a certain day," fixes it, defines it. In this sense it is clearly used in this place. The act of raising him from the dead designated him, or constituted him the Son of God. It was such an act as in the circumstances of the case showed that he was the Son of God in regard to a nature which was not "according to the flesh." The ordinary resurrection of a man, like that of Lazarus, would not show that he was the Son of God; but in the circumstances of Jesus Christ it did; for he had claimed to be so; he had taught it; and God now attested the truth of his teaching by raising him from the dead.

The Son of God. The word son is used in a great variety of senses, denoting literally a son, then a descendant, posterity near or remote, a disciple or ward, an adopted son, or one that imitates or resembles another. Matthew 1:1. The expression sons of God, or son of God, is used in an almost equal latitude of signification. It is

(1.) applied to Adam, as being immediately created by God, without an earthly father, Luke 3:38.

(2.) It is applied to saints or Christians, as being adopted into his family, and sustaining to him the relation of children, John 1:12,13; 1 John 3:1,2, etc. This name is given to them because they resemble him in their moral character, Matthew 5:45.

(3.) It is given to strong men as resembling God in strength. Genesis 6:2, "The sons of God saw the daughters of men," etc. Here these men of violence and strength are called sons of God, just as the high hills are called hills of God, the lofty trees of Lebanon are called cedars of God, etc.

(4.) Kings are sometimes called his sons, as resembling him in dominion and power, Psalms 82:6.

(5.) The name is given to angels, because they resemble God; because he is their Creator and Father, etc., Job 1:6, 2:1, Daniel 3:25.

But the name The Son of God is, in the New Testament, given by way of eminence to the Lord Jesus Christ. This was the common and favourite name by which the apostles designated him. The expression Son of God is applied to him no less than twenty-seven times in the Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles, and fifteen times in the Epistles and the Revelation. The expression my Son, and his Son, thy Son, etc., is applied to him in his peculiar relation to God, times almost without number. The other most common appellation which is given to him is Son of man. By this name he commonly designated himself. There can be no doubt that that was assumed to denote that he was a man, that he sustained a peculiar relation to man, and that he chose to speak of himself as a man. The first, the most obvious, impression on the use of the name Son of man is, that he was truly a man; and it was used, doubtless, to guard against the impression that one who manifested so many other qualities, and did so many things like a celestial being, was not truly a human being. The phrase Son of God stands in contrast with the title Son of man; and as the natural and obvious import of that is that he was a man, so the natural and obvious import of the title Son of God is that he was Divine; or that he sustained relations to God, designated by the name Son of God, corresponding to the relations which he sustained to man, designated by the name Son of Man. The natural idea of the term Son of God therefore is, that he sustained a relation to God in his nature which implied more than was human or angelic; which implied equality with God. Accordingly, this idea was naturally suggested to the Jews by his calling God his Father: John 5:18, "But said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God." This idea Jesus immediately proceeded to confirm. John 5:19 and John 5:20-30. The same idea is also suggested in John 10:29,30,31,33,36, "Say ye of him whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, thou blasphemest: because I said I am the Son of God?" There is, in these places, the fullest proof that the title suggested naturally the idea of equality with God; or the idea of his sustaining a relation to God corresponding to the relation of equality to man, suggested by the title Son of man. This view is still further sustained in the first chapter of the epistle to the Hebrews, Hebrews 1:1,2. God hath spoken unto us by his son. He is the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, Hebrews 1:3. He is higher than the angels, and they are required to worship him, Hebrews 1:4,5,6. He is called God, and his throne is for ever and ever, Hebrews 1:8. He is the Creator of the heavens and the earth, and is immutably the same, Hebrews 1:10-12. Thus the rank, or title, of the Son of God, suggests the ideas and attributes of the Divinity. This idea is sustained throughout the New Testament. See John 14:9, "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father;" John 5:23, "That all men should honour the Son even as they honour the father." Colossians 1:19, "It hath pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;" Colossians 2:9, "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." Philippians 2:2-11, Revelation 5:13,14; Revelation 21:23. It is not affirmed that this title was given to the Second Person of the Trinity before he became incarnate, or to suggest the idea of any derivation or extraction before he was made flesh. There is no instance in which the appellation is not conferred to express the relation after he assumed human flesh. Of any derivation from God, or emanation from him in eternity, the Scriptures are silent. The title is conferred on him, it is supposed, with reference to his condition in this world as the Messiah. And it is conferred, it is believed, for the following reasons, or to denote the following thing, viz:

(1.) To designate his peculiar relation to God, as equal with him, (John 1:14,18, Matthew 11:27, Luke 10:22, 3:22, 2 Peter 1:17;) or as sustaining a most intimate and close connexion with him, such as neither man nor angels could do-an acquaintance with his nature, (Matthew 11:27,) plans, and counsels, such as no being but one who was equal with God could possess. In this sense I regard it as conferred on him in the passage under consideration.

(2.) It designates him as the anointed King, or the Messiah. In this sense it accords with the use of the word in Psalms 82:6. See Matthew 16:16, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." Matthew 26:63, "I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God." Mark 14:61; Luke 22:70, John 1:34, Acts 9:20, "He preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God."

(3.) It was conferred on him to denote his miraculous conception in the womb of the Virgin Mary. Luke 1:35, "The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, THEREFORE (διο) also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

With power. ενδυναμει. By some, this expression has been supposed to mean in power or authority, after his resurrection from the dead. It is said, that he was before a man of sorrows; now he was clothed with power and authority. But I have seen no instance in which the expression in power denotes office, or authority. It denotes physical energy and might-and this was bestowed on Jesus before his resurrection as well as after. Acts 10:38, "God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost, and with power." Romans 15:19, 1 Corinthians 15:43. With such power Jesus will come to judgment, Matthew 24:30. If there is any passage in which the word power means authority, office, etc., it is Matthew 28:18, "All power in heaven and earth is given unto me." But this is not a power which was given unto him after his resurrection, or which he did not possess before. The same authority to commission his disciples he had exercised before this on the same ground, Matthew 10:7,8. I am inclined to believe, therefore, that the expression means powerfully, efficiently; he was with great power, or conclusiveness, shown to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead. Thus the phrase in power is used to qualify a verb in Colossians 1:29, "Which worketh in me mightily"-Greek, in power i.e., operating in me effectually, or powerfully. The ancient versions seem to have understood it in the same way. Syriac, "He was known to be the Son of God by power, and by the Holy Ghost." AEthiopic, "Whom he declared to be the Son of God by his own power, and by his Holy Spirit," etc. Arabic, "Designated the Son of God by power appropriate to the Holy Spirit."

According to the spirit of holiness. Κατὰ πνεῦμα ἁγιωσύνης. This expression has been variously understood. We may arrive at its meaning by the following considerations.

(1.) It is not the Third Person in the Trinity that is referred to here. The designation of that person is always in a different form. It is the Holy Spirit, the Holy Ghost—πνεῦμα ἅγιον, or τὸ πνεῦμα το ἅγιον; never the Spirit of holiness.

(2.) It stands in contrast with the flesh, Romans 1:3, "According to the flesh, the seed of David: according to the spirit of holiness, the Son of God." As the former refers doubtless to his human nature, so this must refer to the nature designated by the title Son of God, that is, to his superior or Divine nature.

(3.) The expression is altogether peculiar to the Lord Jesus Christ. Nowhere in the Scriptures, or in any other writings, is there an affirmation like this. What would be meant by it if affirmed of a mere man?

(4.) It cannot mean that the Holy Spirit, the Third Person in the Trinity, showed that Jesus was the Son of God by raising him from the dead, because that act is nowhere attributed to him. It is uniformly ascribed either to God, as God, (Acts 2:24,32, 3:15,26, 4:10, 5:30, 10:40, 13:30,33,34, 17:31, Romans 10:9; Ephesians 1:20,) or to the rather, (Romans 6:4,) or to Jesus himself, (John 10:18.) In no instance is this act ascribed to the Holy Ghost.

(5.) It indicates a state far more elevated than any human dignity, or honour. In regard to his earthly descent, he was of a royal race; in regard to the Spirit of holiness, much more than that, he was the Son of God.

(6.) The word Spirit is used often to designate God, the holy God, as distinguished from all the material forms of idol worship, John 4:24.

(7.) The word Spirit is applied to the Messiah in his more elevated or Divine nature. 1 Corinthians 15:45, "The last Adam was made a quickening Spirit." 2 Corinthians 3:17, "Now the Lord (Jesus) is that Spirit." Hebrews 9:14, Christ is said to have "offered himself through the eternal Spirit." 1 Peter 3:18, he is said to have been "put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit." 1 Timothy 3:16, he is said to have been "justified in the Spirit." In most of these passages there is the same contrast noticed between his flesh, his human nature, and his other state, which occurs in Romans 1:3,4. In all these instances, the design is, doubtless, to speak of him as a man, and as something more than a man; he was one thing as a man; he was another thing in his other nature. In the one, he was of David; was put to death, etc. In the other, he was of God; he was manifested to be such; he was restored to the elevation which he had sustained before his incarnation and death, John 17:1-5, Philippians 2:2-11. The expression, according to the spirit of holiness, does not indeed of itself imply Divinity. It denotes that holy and more exalted nature which he possessed as distinguished from the human. What that is, is to be learned from other declarations. This expression implies simply that it was such as to make proper the appellation, the Son of God. Other places, as we have seen, show that that designation naturally implied Divinity. And that this was the true idea couched under the expression, according to the spirit of holiness, appears from those numerous texts of Scripture which explicitly assert his Divinity. See John 1:1, etc., and John 1:1.

By the resurrection from the dead. This has been also variously understood. Some have maintained that the word by-εξ-denotes AFTER. He was declared to be the Son of God in power after he rose from the dead; that is, he was solemnly invested with the dignity that became the Son of God after he had been so long in a state of voluntary humiliation. But to this view there are some insuperable objections.

(1.) It is not the natural and usual meaning of the word by.

(2.) It is not the object of the apostle to state the time when the thing was done, or the order, but evidently to declare the fact, and the evidence of the fact. If such had been his design, he would have said, that previous to his death he was shown to be of the seed of David, but afterwards that he was invested with power.

(3.) Though it must be admitted that the preposition by εξ sometimes means AFTER, (Matthew 19:20, Luke 8:27, 23:8) yet its proper and usual meaning is to denote the efficient cause, or the agent, or origin of a thing. Matthew 1:3,18, 21:25, John 3:5, Romans 5:16, Romans 11:36. "Of him are all things." 1 Corinthians 8:6, "One God, the Father, of whom are all things," etc. In this sense I suppose it is used here; and that the apostle means to affirm that he was clearly or decisively shown to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead. But here it will be asked, how did his resurrection show this? Was not Lazarus raised from the dead? And did not many saints rise also after Jesus? And were not the dead raised by the apostles, by Elijah, by the bones of Elisha, and by Christ himself? And did their being raised prove that they were the sons of God? I answer, that the mere fact of the resurrection of the body proves nothing in itself about the character and rank of the being that is raised. But in the circumstances in which Jesus was placed it might show it conclusively. When Lazarus was raised, it was not in attestation of anything which he had taught or done. It was a mere display of the power and benevolence of Christ. But, in regard to the resurrection of Jesus, let the following circumstances be taken into the account.

(1.) He came as the Messiah.

(2.) He uniformly taught that he was the Son of God.

(3.) He maintained that God was his Father in such a sense as to imply equality with him, John 5:17-30; 10:36.

(4.) He claimed authority to abolish the laws of the Jews, to change their customs, and to be himself absolved from the observance of those laws, even as his Father was, John 5:1-17; Mark 2:28.

(5.) When God raised Him up, therefore, it was not an ordinary event. It was a public attestation, in the face of the universe, of the truth of his claims to be the Son of God. God would not sanction the doings and doctrines of an impostor. And when, therefore, he raised up Jesus, he, by this act, showed the truth of his claims, that he was the Son of God. Further; in the view of the apostles, the resurrection was intimately connected with the ascension and exaltation of Jesus. The one made the other certain. And it is not improbable that, when they spoke of his resurrection, they meant to include not merely that single act, but the entire series of doings of which that was the first, and which was the pledge of the elevation and majesty of the Son of God. Hence, when they had proved his resurrection, they assumed that all the others would follow. That involved and supposed all And the series, of which that was the first, proved that he was the Son of God. See Acts 17:31: "He will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained, whereof he hath given ASSURANCE, unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead." The one involves the other. See Acts 1:6. Thus Peter, (Acts 2:22-32) having proved that Jesus was raised up, adds, Acts 2:33, "THEREFORE being by the right hand exalted, he hath shed forth this," etc.; and Acts 2:36, "THEREFORE let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, Both lord and christ."

This verse is a remarkable instance of the apostle Paul's manner of writing. Having mentioned a subject, his mind seems to catch fire; he presents it in new forms, and amplifies it, until he seems to forget for a time the subject on which he was writing. It is from this cause that his writings abound so with parentheses, and that there is so much difficulty in following and understanding him.

(*) "declared" or "determined"
(*) "to be the Son" Acts 13:33,34, Revelation 1:18
(*) "to the spirit" Hebrews 9:14
—Barnes' Notes on the New Testament

You fail to understand two clear points.

1 Mary was a sinner and her son was born with her nature (see Matt 1:1 for connection) Jesus was the son of sinners! i.e Son of Man.

"Nature" (ie Form) is not inherited from the mother in Jewish thinking.  It only comes from the Father.  The mother is thought to contribute substance, or materiality.

This argument fails on this point.

: Insight  Sun Dec 11, 2011 - 22:09:42
When the nature of Christ is fully understood the Trinity falls away very quickly as how can you have God in His Holiness dwelling in sin's flesh?

You could ask no Christian to believe such an abhorrent teaching as the Father dwelling in the unclean.

Unclean to mean:

1. Born of a woman (from the womb)

2. Covered in blood both mother and child

3. Circumcised on the eight day - cutting away the flesh of his nature!

4. Baptism - showing forth the manner of crucifying his fleshly desires every day until he finally allowed his body to be crucified on a tree

5. Touching death he became unclean but God did the following:

Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

Maybe now dear readers you will understand how it can be said of Jesus -

He is the firstborn of many brothers and sisters....

Insight

Chapter 12
1 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2 "Speak to the children of Israel, saying: 'If a woman has conceived, and borne a male child, then she shall be unclean seven days; as in the days of her customary impurity she shall be unclean. 3 And on the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. 4 She shall then continue in the blood of her purification thirty-three days. She shall not touch any hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary until the days of her purification are fulfilled. 5 But if she bears a female child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her customary impurity, and she shall continue in the blood of her purification sixty-six days.
6 'When the days of her purification are fulfilled, whether for a son or a daughter, she shall bring to the priest a lamb of the first year as a burnt offering, and a young pigeon or a turtledove as a sin offering, to the door of the tabernacle of meeting. 7 Then he shall offer it before the Lord, and make atonement for her. And she shall be clean from the flow of her blood. This is the law for her who has borne a male or a female. 8 And if she is not able to bring a lamb, then she may bring two turtledoves or two young pigeons--one as a burnt offering and the other as a sin offering. So the priest shall make atonement for her, and she will be clean.' "
Lev 12:1-8 (NKJV)I couldnt find any sin offering made for the child only the mother.

Also if you know why the difference between male and female?

Male  8days + 33 = 41days

Female 14 + 66 = 80 days

I don't know,  but you may be able to give me some insight.Please just answer it without all the Questions please.

: bemark  Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 12:25:40
Also if you know why the difference between male and female?

Male  8days + 33 = 41days

Female 14 + 66 = 80 days

I don't know,  but you may be able to give me some insight.Please just answer it without all the Questions please.

Bemark

I am impressed with your research and question.

Before I explain can I ask you to consider what you think it means - many in this forum believe I ask these questions to bait and this is not so.  We find great benefit in exercising our minds in the Word and not taking the easy options.

33 x 2 = 66 (Twice as long) ???

Insight

: bemark  Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 12:14:53

: Insight  Sun Dec 11, 2011 - 22:09:42
When the nature of Christ is fully understood the Trinity falls away very quickly as how can you have God in His Holiness dwelling in sin's flesh?

You could ask no Christian to believe such an abhorrent teaching as the Father dwelling in the unclean.

Unclean to mean:

1. Born of a woman (from the womb)

2. Covered in blood both mother and child

3. Circumcised on the eight day - cutting away the flesh of his nature!

4. Baptism - showing forth the manner of crucifying his fleshly desires every day until he finally allowed his body to be crucified on a tree

5. Touching death he became unclean but God did the following:

Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

Maybe now dear readers you will understand how it can be said of Jesus -

He is the firstborn of many brothers and sisters....

Insight

Chapter 12
1 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2 "Speak to the children of Israel, saying: 'If a woman has conceived, and borne a male child, then she shall be unclean seven days; as in the days of her customary impurity she shall be unclean. 3 And on the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. 4 She shall then continue in the blood of her purification thirty-three days. She shall not touch any hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary until the days of her purification are fulfilled. 5 But if she bears a female child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her customary impurity, and she shall continue in the blood of her purification sixty-six days.
6 'When the days of her purification are fulfilled, whether for a son or a daughter, she shall bring to the priest a lamb of the first year as a burnt offering, and a young pigeon or a turtledove as a sin offering, to the door of the tabernacle of meeting. 7 Then he shall offer it before the Lord, and make atonement for her. And she shall be clean from the flow of her blood. This is the law for her who has borne a male or a female. 8 And if she is not able to bring a lamb, then she may bring two turtledoves or two young pigeons--one as a burnt offering and the other as a sin offering. So the priest shall make atonement for her, and she will be clean.' "
Lev 12:1-8 (NKJV)I couldnt find any sin offering made for the child only the mother.

The Child is the offering  ::smile::

: bemark  Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 12:25:40
Also if you know why the difference between male and female?

Male  8days + 33 = 41days

Female 14 + 66 = 80 days

I don't know,  but you may be able to give me some insight.Please just answer it without all the Questions please.

My experience is that Insight will not answer directly. 

: segell  Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 17:04:02

: bemark  Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 12:25:40
Also if you know why the difference between male and female?

Male  8days + 33 = 41days

Female 14 + 66 = 80 days

I don't know,  but you may be able to give me some insight.Please just answer it without all the Questions please.

My experience is that Insight will not answer directly. 

Yes you are right Steve...I encourage Christains to actually think about the Word and not take the easy out as many often do.

At least Bemark is able to hold a conversation and contribute..maybe you should follow the example?

Or not!

Insight

: Insight  Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 14:53:19

: bemark  Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 12:25:40
Also if you know why the difference between male and female?

Male  8days + 33 = 41days

Female 14 + 66 = 80 days

I don't know,  but you may be able to give me some insight.Please just answer it without all the Questions please.

Bemark

I am impressed with your research and question.

Before I explain can I ask you to consider what you think it means - many in this forum believe I ask these questions to bait and this is not so.  We find great benefit in exercising our minds in the Word and not taking the easy options.

33 x 2 = 66 (Twice as long) ???

Insight

yeah I saw it was twice as long,  but am still puzzled by it.Jesus died at 33 years but fail to relate anything to it at all.And the answer for the Child Jesus as the offering was clever.

: segell  Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 17:04:02

: bemark  Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 12:25:40
Also if you know why the difference between male and female?

Male  8days + 33 = 41days

Female 14 + 66 = 80 days

I don't know,  but you may be able to give me some insight.Please just answer it without all the Questions please.

My experience is that Insight will not answer directly. 

Yes you are right and insight you know it.Stretching someones mind is ok but as for my self I struggle with too many questions thrown at me all at once.
Sometimes its good to research and other times its good just to be told how you see it.Anyway all good if it gets you into the word.

And Insight you do bait people with those remarks that you leave.

: bemark  Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 22:29:53

: Insight  Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 14:53:19

: bemark  Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 12:25:40
Also if you know why the difference between male and female?

Male  8days + 33 = 41days

Female 14 + 66 = 80 days

I don't know,  but you may be able to give me some insight.Please just answer it without all the Questions please.

Bemark

I am impressed with your research and question.

Before I explain can I ask you to consider what you think it means - many in this forum believe I ask these questions to bait and this is not so.  We find great benefit in exercising our minds in the Word and not taking the easy options.

33 x 2 = 66 (Twice as long) ???

Insight

yeah I saw it was twice as long,  but am still puzzled by it.Jesus died at 33 years but fail to relate anything to it at all.And the answer for the Child Jesus as the offering was clever.

I like how you are thinking.

How about considering the difference's (Spiritually) between girls (women) and boys (men)

I will follow shortly with some material for you to consider.  I did a study on the law some years back.

Insight

: Insight  Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 23:09:12

: bemark  Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 22:29:53

: Insight  Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 14:53:19

: bemark  Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 12:25:40
Also if you know why the difference between male and female?

Male  8days + 33 = 41days

Female 14 + 66 = 80 days

I don't know,  but you may be able to give me some insight.Please just answer it without all the Questions please.

Bemark

I am impressed with your research and question.

Before I explain can I ask you to consider what you think it means - many in this forum believe I ask these questions to bait and this is not so.  We find great benefit in exercising our minds in the Word and not taking the easy options.

33 x 2 = 66 (Twice as long) ???

Insight

yeah I saw it was twice as long,  but am still puzzled by it.Jesus died at 33 years but fail to relate anything to it at all.And the answer for the Child Jesus as the offering was clever.

I like how you are thinking.

How about considering the difference's (Spiritually) between girls (women) and boys (men)

I will follow shortly with some material for you to consider.  I did a study on the law some years back.

Insight

Yes I have read its about headship and authority of the role of the male,  but why twice as long?Maybe a Jewish thing that I am not getting and also the importance of circumcision etc etc etc.Just cant really find a answer that really makes total sense to me.

: bemark  Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 23:13:27

: Insight  Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 23:09:12

: bemark  Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 22:29:53

: Insight  Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 14:53:19

: bemark  Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 12:25:40
Also if you know why the difference between male and female?

Male  8days + 33 = 41days

Female 14 + 66 = 80 days

I don't know,  but you may be able to give me some insight.Please just answer it without all the Questions please.

Bemark

I am impressed with your research and question.

Before I explain can I ask you to consider what you think it means - many in this forum believe I ask these questions to bait and this is not so.  We find great benefit in exercising our minds in the Word and not taking the easy options.

33 x 2 = 66 (Twice as long) ???

Insight

yeah I saw it was twice as long,  but am still puzzled by it.Jesus died at 33 years but fail to relate anything to it at all.And the answer for the Child Jesus as the offering was clever.

I like how you are thinking.

How about considering the difference's (Spiritually) between girls (women) and boys (men)

I will follow shortly with some material for you to consider.  I did a study on the law some years back.

Insight

Yes I have read its about headship and authority of the role of the male,  but why twice as long?Maybe a Jewish thing that I am not getting and also the importance of circumcision etc etc etc.Just cant really find a answer that really makes total sense to me.

What would you say if I suggest the woman represents the 'bride of Christ"?

How does this relate to the Bride today? 

: bemark  Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 23:13:27

: Insight  Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 23:09:12

: bemark  Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 22:29:53

: Insight  Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 14:53:19

: bemark  Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 12:25:40
Also if you know why the difference between male and female?

Male  8days + 33 = 41days

Female 14 + 66 = 80 days

I don't know,  but you may be able to give me some insight.Please just answer it without all the Questions please.

Bemark

I am impressed with your research and question.

Before I explain can I ask you to consider what you think it means - many in this forum believe I ask these questions to bait and this is not so.  We find great benefit in exercising our minds in the Word and not taking the easy options.

33 x 2 = 66 (Twice as long) ???

Insight

yeah I saw it was twice as long,  but am still puzzled by it.Jesus died at 33 years but fail to relate anything to it at all.And the answer for the Child Jesus as the offering was clever.

I like how you are thinking.

How about considering the difference's (Spiritually) between girls (women) and boys (men)

I will follow shortly with some material for you to consider.  I did a study on the law some years back.

Insight

Yes I have read its about headship and authority of the role of the male,  but why twice as long?Maybe a Jewish thing that I am not getting and also the importance of circumcision etc etc etc.Just cant really find a answer that really makes total sense to me.

"But if she bear a man child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying three score and six days"

The difference between the man-child and woman- child is this. I will not be dogmatic but I believe it fits beautifully with the New Testament example.

We know Christ was undefiled in mind, absolutely pure, therefore he required no cleansing as pertaining to the conscience at baptism, for there never was a moment in his life when God was displeased with him; he always did and said what pleased his Father.

He only required cleansing in nature, which was done, as said, after resurrection, but all others have be cleansed both in mind and body before they can live for ever in God's presence.

The mental and moral cleansing takes place at baptism, when we are immersed into the death of Christ, which took place after the thirty-third year of his life. The double number of days in the cleansing for the woman-child represents. I take it, the double cleansing process all believers must be the subjects of before they can attain to eternal life, but both the moral and physical purification is in virtue of the one sacrifice.

I hope this helps.

If this is believed upon and it makes sense then you will find it impossible to believe that Jesus is Very God – as how can God be an unclean man-child?

Indeed impossible.

Insight

p.s There further insight to the lenght of her purification also...

: Insight  Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 23:30:21

: bemark  Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 23:13:27

: Insight  Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 23:09:12

: bemark  Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 22:29:53

: Insight  Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 14:53:19

: bemark  Tue Dec 13, 2011 - 12:25:40
Also if you know why the difference between male and female?

Male  8days + 33 = 41days

Female 14 + 66 = 80 days

I don't know,  but you may be able to give me some insight.Please just answer it without all the Questions please.

Bemark

I am impressed with your research and question.

Before I explain can I ask you to consider what you think it means - many in this forum believe I ask these questions to bait and this is not so.  We find great benefit in exercising our minds in the Word and not taking the easy options.

33 x 2 = 66 (Twice as long) ???

Insight

yeah I saw it was twice as long,  but am still puzzled by it.Jesus died at 33 years but fail to relate anything to it at all.And the answer for the Child Jesus as the offering was clever.

I like how you are thinking.

How about considering the difference's (Spiritually) between girls (women) and boys (men)

I will follow shortly with some material for you to consider.  I did a study on the law some years back.

Insight

Yes I have read its about headship and authority of the role of the male,  but why twice as long?Maybe a Jewish thing that I am not getting and also the importance of circumcision etc etc etc.Just cant really find a answer that really makes total sense to me.

"But if she bear a man child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying three score and six days"

The difference between the man-child and woman- child is this. I will not be dogmatic but I believe it fits beautifully with the New Testament example.

We know Christ was undefiled in mind, absolutely pure, therefore he required no cleansing as pertaining to the conscience at baptism, for there never was a moment in his life when God was displeased with him; he always did and said what pleased his Father.

He only required cleansing in nature, which was done, as said, after resurrection, but all others have be cleansed both in mind and body before they can live for ever in God's presence.

The mental and moral cleansing takes place at baptism, when we are immersed into the death of Christ, which took place after the thirty-third year of his life. The double number of days in the cleansing for the woman-child represents. I take it, the double cleansing process all believers must be the subjects of before they can attain to eternal life, but both the moral and physical purification is in virtue of the one sacrifice.

I hope this helps.

If this is believed upon and it makes sense then you will find it impossible to believe that Jesus is Very God – as how can God be an unclean man-child?

Indeed impossible.

Insight

p.s There further insight to the lenght of her purification also...

Jesus was purified of our sin,our nature,in his flesh not his sin his nature.......  he became our frame and knew us and received the cup and defeated sin for us, where we couldn't and through obedience by going to the cross buried it and removed it from us as far as the east is from the west. The moment you receive Christ you have received eternal life. thief on the cross example.I don't know about the 66 days but interesting as women could mean church,  but still before that was 8days for the male and 14 days for the female.The more you look the more you ask.And it is OK not to know but as kings we look.

And how can the Holy Spirit his presence Jesus the word  , God live in us while we still live in a sinful form.

: bemark  Wed Dec 14, 2011 - 01:27:47
Jesus was purified of our sin,our nature,in his flesh not his sin his nature.......

I removed the rest of your post as it contradicted the Word.

I am wanting you to explain exactly how Jesus was purified of our sin?

Consider the following:

Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this Jesus did once, when he offered up himself.

So he offered once for what:

1___________________

2___________________

.

New International Version (©1984)
Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.
New Living Translation (©2007)
Unlike those other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices every day. They did this for their own sins first and then for the sins of the people. But Jesus did this once for all when he offered himself as the sacrifice for the people's sins.

English Standard Version (©2001)
He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

International Standard Version (©2008)
He has no need to offer sacrifices every day like high priests do, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he sacrificed himself.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
And he has no compulsion every day as The Chief Priests to offer sacrifice, first for his sins and then for the people, for This One did it one time by his Life which he offered.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
We need a priest who doesn't have to bring daily sacrifices as those chief priests did. First they brought sacrifices for their own sins, and then they brought sacrifices for the sins of the people. Jesus brought the sacrifice for the sins of the people once and for all when he sacrificed himself.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Who needs not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

American King James Version
Who needs not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

American Standard Version
who needeth not daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for his own sins, and then for the'sins of the people: for this he did once for all, when he offered up himself.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Who needeth not daily (as the other priests) to offer sacrifices first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, in offering himself.

Darby Bible Translation
who has not day by day need, as the high priests, first to offer up sacrifices for his own sins, then for those of the people; for this he did once for all in having offered up himself.

English Revised Version
who needeth not daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people: for this he did once for all, when he offered up himself.

Webster's Bible Translation
Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

Weymouth New Testament
who, unlike other High Priests, is not under the necessity of offering up sacrifices day after day, first for His own sins, and afterwards for those of the people; for this latter thing He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

World English Bible
who doesn't need, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices daily, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. For he did this once for all, when he offered up himself.

Young's Literal Translation
who hath no necessity daily, as the chief priests, first for his own sins to offer up sacrifice, then for those of the people; for this he did once, having offered up himself;


Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Who needeth not daily, as those high priests - As the Jewish priests. This is an additional circumstance introduced to show the superior excellency of the High Priest of the Christian profession, and to show also how he was suited to our wants. The Jewish high priest was a sinful man. He had the same fallen and corrupt nature as others. He needed an expiatory sacrifice for his own sins as really as they did for theirs. When he approached God to offer sacrifice, it was needful to make an atonement for himself, and when all was done it was still a sacrifice offered by a sinful man. But it was not so in the case of Jesus. He was so holy that he needed no sacrifice for himself, and all that he did was in behalf of others. Besides, it was necessary that the sacrifices in the Jewish service should be constantly repeated. They were imperfect. They were mere types and shadows. They who offered them were frail, sinful men. It became necessary, therefore, to repeat them every day to keep up the proper sense of their transgressions, and to furnish a suitable acknowledgment of the tendency to sin alike among the people and the priests. Neither in the nature of the offering, nor in the character of those who made it, was there any sufficient reason why it should cease to be offered, and it was therefore repeated day by day. But it was not so with the Lord Jesus. The offering which he made, though presented but once, was so ample and perfect that it had sufficient merit for all the sins of the world, and needed never to be repeated. It is not probable that the Jewish high priest himself personally officiated at the offering of sacrifice every day; but the meaning here is, that it was done daily, and that there was need of a daily sacrifice in his behalf. As one of the Jewish people, the sacrifice was offered on his account as well as on the account of others - for he partook of the common infirmities and sinfulness of the nation.

For this he did once - That is, once for all - ἐφάπαξ ephapax. He made such an atonement that it was not needful that it should be repeated. Thus, he put an end to sacrifice, for when he made the great atonement it was complete, and there was no need that any more blood should be shed for human guilt.

Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
Who needeth not daily - Though the high priest offered the great atonement only once in the year, yet in the Jewish services there was a daily acknowledgment of sin, and a daily sacrifice offered by the priests, at whose head was the high priest, for their own sins and the sins of the people. The Jews held that a priest who neglected his own expiatory sacrifice would be smitten with death. (Sanhedr., fol. 83.) When they offered this victim, they prayed the following prayer: "O Lord, I have sinned, and done wickedly, and gone astray before thy face, I, and my house, and the sons of Aaron, the, people of thy holiness. I beseech thee, for thy name's sake, blot out the sins, iniquities, and transgressions by which I have sinned, done wickedly, and gone astray before thy face, I, and my house, and the sons of Aaron, the people of thy holiness; as it is written in the law of Moses thy servant, (Leviticus 16:30): On that day shall he make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the Lord!" To which the Levites answered: "Blessed be the name of the glory of thy kingdom, for ever and ever!"

This prayer states that the priest offered a sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people, as the apostle asserts.

For this he did once - For himself he offered no sacrifice; and the apostle gives the reason - he needed none, because he was holy, harmless, undefiled, and separate from sinners: and for the people he offered himself once for all, when he expired upon the cross, It has been very properly remarked, that the sacrifice offered by Christ differed in four essential respects from those, offered by the Jewish priests:

1. He offered no sacrifice for himself, but only for the people.

2. He did not offer that sacrifice annually, but once for all.

3. The sacrifice which he offered was not of calves and goats, but of himself.

4. This sacrifice he offered, not for one people, but for the whole human race; for he tasted death for every man.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
Who needeth not daily, as those high priests,.... They being sinners, and he not:

to offer up sacrifice first for his own sins and then for the people's; as they did on the day of atonement; see Leviticus 16:6 upon which place the Jews (c) make the same remark the apostle does here;

"he (the high priest, they say) offers sacrifices for the sins of the people, for his own "first", "and afterwards for the sins of the people":''

which was one reason of the imperfection and insufficiency of their sacrifices; but Christ needed not to offer for his own, nor could he, for he had none of his own; what he had was by imputation; wherefore he only needed to offer, and he only did offer, for the sins of the people; not of the Jews only, but of the Gentiles also, even of all God's covenant people; nor did he need to do this daily, as they did; they offered sacrifice daily, the common priests every day, morning and evening, and the high priest on a stated day once a year, on the day of atonement:

for this he did once, when he offered up himself; and in this also he differed from them; they offered not themselves, but what was inferior to themselves, and what could not take away sin, and, therefore, was repeated; but Christ offered himself, his whole human nature, soul and body, and both as in union with his divine nature; and this being offered to God freely and voluntarily, in the room and stead of his people, was acceptable to God: hereby justice was satisfied; the law fulfilled; sin taken away, and complete salvation obtained; so that there never was since any need of his offering again, nor never will be; which shows the perfection and fulness of his priesthood, and the preference of it to the Levitical one.

(c) Zohar in Lev. fol. 26. 4.

Do you have a copy and paste faith?

::frown::

Read the passage for yourself and answer:

Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this Jesus did once, when he offered up himself.

What did he do once?

1___________________

2___________________

He had no sin of his own so what part of him needed redeeming, cleansing and saving? How did his own blood enable him to enter into the Most Holy?

Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood  he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption. (Hebrews 9:12)

Insight

After you have answer those two passages for yourself can you explain the weakness of Christ?

Jesus can deal gently with the ignorant and wayward, since he himself is beset with weakness. (Hebrews 5:2)

This may help you in dealing with the other passages?

Insight

p.s Please dont quote Gill and the other experts - - they have it a great deal wrong in their theology...as they are only copying the experts themselves - Plato is their forefather - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato

Yes the OT priests offered up sacrifice's for there own sins first or they would have been smoke.

Jesus offered up to God our sins not his as you can see,  that was paid in full in the punishment of his flesh,  so we could then go through the perfect sacrifice,  Jesus the open door in Heaven by the spirit.So now the flesh is dead buried in him so we now can enter through him by the spirit and encounter the father by the Holy Spirit.We don't go there alone he is allways with us and he had to go so the holy spirit would come  and when 2 or 3 are gathered in his name he is there.So how can he be here and in heaven at the same time? God is omnipresent.

So do you feel the Holy Spirit Insight or not?Do you know his voice or should I say his presence?

This is a key to knowing you are saved.Just tell me friend...... please.

Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this Jesus did once, when he offered up himself.

I am interested in why you choose to believe in the red  text but ignor the blue?

What you are saying is he failed the type of the high priest so you must have a valid reason why you ignore a part of scripture when clearly Paul did not?

Insight

He didn't fail.

I don't ignore the blue but associate it with the high priests who where just as guilty as all of Israel.But Jesus was the perfect High priest,  the perfect sacrifice and could go where no man could go before.

: bemark  Thu Dec 22, 2011 - 04:54:30
He didn't fail.

I don't ignore the blue but associate it with the high priests who where just as guilty as all of Israel.But Jesus was the perfect High priest,  the perfect sacrifice and could go where no man could go before.

So in what way did Jesus both offer for himself and came under the benefit of his own sacrifice?

Take a look at John 3:14-21 and see why Jesus viewed his nature as a serpent being lifted up...

Why a serpent?

Why on a pole?

: Insight  Thu Dec 22, 2011 - 05:03:36

: bemark  Thu Dec 22, 2011 - 04:54:30
He didn't fail.

I don't ignore the blue but associate it with the high priests who where just as guilty as all of Israel.But Jesus was the perfect High priest,  the perfect sacrifice and could go where no man could go before.

So in what way did Jesus both offer for himself and came under the benefit of his own sacrifice?

Take a look at John 3:14-21 and see why Jesus viewed his nature as a serpent being lifted up...

Why a serpent?

Why on a pole?

you tell me

Alright so we have the power of sin nailed to the tree.Done away with in Christ Jesus the tree of life.Where we failed now we are victorious as now it becomes buried

1 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, "Has God indeed said, 'You shall not eat of every tree of the garden'?"
Gen 3:1 (NKJV)

More to the point insight why did God allow that devil into the realm of the Garden or was he not yet kicked out of heaven?

Insight you have the slightly annoying manner in which you belabor a point instead of simply making it...

Aside from that you often make some very good points, some I agree with some I do not ....

In any case ...it would help us all a great deal if you would just simply make your points as opposed to dangling questions in the manner of a high school teacher, giving the appearance you're the only one in the class that knows the correct answer.... while you're trying to teach the rest of us how to correctly think through a problem  ::shrug::

That said let us continue....

So in what way did Jesus both offer for himself and came under the benefit of his own sacrifice?

You and most of us knows or should know the scriptural basis for everything that follows but here goes

1. Jesus laid down His Life knowing He could pick it up again
2. Jesus knowing no sin was made sin, He didn't do sin, He was made sin, in this manner He laid His life down. This was the decision He made in the Garden...at the appointed time, in the appointed place, like Adam, a Garden, Gethsemane, ( the olive press)
3. Having been made sin, He took sin upon Himself simply to destroy the power of it to bring death and destroy its stronghold over man

Take a look at John 3:14-21 and see why Jesus viewed his nature as a serpent being lifted up...

1. The serpent does not represent Jesus or His Divine Nature, the serpent actually represents sin and the nature of Satan.

In this case, in John 3, Jesus is referring to the sin that was to be laid upon Him.

The serpent and the pole in the wilderness was one of the ways God preached the Gospel of Christ to His people. There are many other ways as the bible says, in times past God spoke in divers ways at sundry times and various ways
( see Hebrews 1:1 )

1.You have to take into account the serpent on the pole was made of brass.

2.Brass represents judgement

3.The fiery serpents if you recall from the incident in Numbers 21:6 represent that which was hurting the people, biting them causing them to die. In addition they became subject to fiery poisonous serpents because of their adamant rejection of God's Grace toward them and their desire to return to the bondage of Egypt rather than remain under the Grace of God, trusting in His ability to sustain them

4. In short the serpents represented sin, that which bites everyone and causes them all to die ( see Romans 5:12, 1 Corinthians 15:56 )

5. Being brass, the serpent is being represented as judged, lifeless, dead, mute, unable to hurt or harm anyone...therefore it gave life to those who looked upon it

6. In the same way, Jesus being made sin, sin taken upon Himself was judged in the Body of Jesus, on the cross, lifeless, mute sin was made incapable of hurting those all who look upon Jesus

Why a serpent?

Serpents obviously represent the Nature of Satan cunning, deceiving, subtle, in stealth, able to wriggle its way into the life of any person, situation or circumstance

Why on a pole?

A pole is a form of a tree, the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil is the source and origin of the curse that fell to all mankind.

In dying on a cross which is also a form of a tree, Jesus has taken the curse that was upon all mankind upon Himself, making Himself the ultimate sacrifice in the knowledge that taking it upon Himself He would destroy it's power to keep people in bondage. Some theologians call it the Divine Exchange (see Isaiah 53)


you must not leave his body on the tree overnight. Be sure to bury him that same day, because anyone who is hung on a tree is under God's curse. You must not desecrate the land the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance.
Deuteronomy 21:23


Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangs on a tree:
Galatians 3:13

: bemark  Thu Dec 22, 2011 - 05:20:41
More to the point insight why did God allow that devil into the realm of the Garden or was he not yet kicked out of heaven?

Book, Chapter and Verse  ::smile::

: gospel  Thu Dec 22, 2011 - 11:40:04
Insight you have the slightly annoying manner in which you belabor a point instead of simply making it...

Not that I portend to be Christ, certainly not but the Master was such a teacher.  Often it is good for us (disciples ) to labour to understand rather than getting a desired "quick fix

: Insight  Thu Dec 22, 2011 - 18:51:16

: gospel  Thu Dec 22, 2011 - 11:40:04
Insight you have the slightly annoying manner in which you belabor a point instead of simply making it...

Not that I portend to be Christ, certainly not but the Master was such a teacher.  Often it is good for us (disciples ) to labour to understand rather than getting a desired "quick fix