For discussion of marriage relationship happiness, sadness, problems, advice, books, men and women, marriage ministry, relationship roles, and sexuality issues discussed with class and tastefulness.
I was all excited until I caught that "with class and tastefulness". Not my strong point! :doh:
Good new forum idea though. Thanks, Lee.
I'll just have to restrain myself. :angel:
So does anyone plan to use this forum?
I do, heh heh heh.
Just gathering up my references and stuff- the tasteful ones of course.
Hi, I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this but it seems perhaps more suitable than the other threads.
I have a problem in that i think my partner may be getting into porn - online and through email. This happened a few years ago - he backed away from me emotionally and physically and visited the sites to satisfy his 'needs' - and this seems to be happening again.
I'm not a prude and i live in the 'real' world,i know men get off on this stuff but am worried on the way it is affecting him relating (or not) to me.
What should i do? should i just leave it be and hope that its just a phase or should i confront him? I could really use some advice on this,thanks.
:help:
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Twiglet @ Nov. 28 2003,03:34)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Hi, I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this but it seems perhaps more suitable than the other threads.
I have a problem in that i think my partner may be getting into porn - online and through email. This happened a few years ago - he backed away from me emotionally and physically and visited the sites to satisfy his 'needs' - and this seems to be happening again.
I'm not a prude and i live in the 'real' world,i know men get off on this stuff but am worried on the way it is affecting him relating (or not) to me.
What should i do? should i just leave it be and hope that its just a phase or should i confront him? I could really use some advice on this,thanks.
:help:[/quote]
Curious and would like clarification before commenting. You used the term "Partner". I question why? Why do you not refer to him as your "Husband"?
If he is just your partner and not your husband, then frankly I would be uncomfortable commenting on ways to improve your sexual relationship.
sorry for any confusion - tis my husband
Is your husband a believer? If he is, he knows that what he is doing is wrong (assuming you are correct in your suspicions).
He also, most likely, feels some degree of shame and self-loathing even though he continues in the activity.
You can help free him from slavery to his addiction if you approach him in a kind and loving way. And make no mistake, it is an addiction, like alcohol or drugs, and it will ruin him eventually.
First, I would advise you to pray about this, long and hard. Then I would advise you to intervene (I'm wary of the word confront, most people don't respond well to a confrontation). Be kind, loving, and firm. Let him know that you are not willing to stand by and watch him destroy himself. Be prepared with a plan of what you will to do to help him recover.
Then pray some more. It is only through the power of the Holy Spirit that we can overcome our sinful nature of the flesh and begin to exhibit the fruits of the Spirit.
God bless you,
Richard
Things to consider:
If you are right about this - it's not your fault. Don't absorb responsibility for his actions - don't get into anything like "if only I'd have done XYZ he'd not need that stuff". Even if there's trouble between you that set him to looking for something else/more/whatever, it's his choice(s) he's made. There's plenty of blame in life to go around, just acknowledging your own blame for your own sins. Don't take on blame that isn't yours.
Of course you may be wrong, or you may have only part of the information. Try to talk with him about it.
P.S.
(And don't assume it's a males-only problem... I've been there, or at least near there, and it's a neighborhood populated by both genders. For example, tell me soap operas and many novels women love are not porn too.)
Richard - yes he is a believer
Janine - how can i not feel that it is somehow my fault? :shrugsmiley:
You mustn't, Twiglet, if you can help it.
There is a difference between, on the one hand,
considering the dynamics of your marriage-
how the personalities and needs play out IRL-
and changing or working on things accordingly-
working with your own family history, you know, handling what's there -
versus on the other hand somehow making his choices your fault.
I can see problems today that I might not have, if I'd taken a different path or made a different decision. Sure, we all can. But there isn't much help in sort of absorbing it all and mourning over it as if it all is my fault. Because it's not.
I hope I'm being halfway clear? Let me know if not and I'll keep trying to find the words.
He refuses to even consider there is a problem though has been becoming more distant over these past few months and more attentive at the computer - even getting up an hour or so earlier so he's less likely to be disturbed and is often last one to bed
Here is a spot elsewhere to look over for additional insight:
porn, marriage, Christians (http://www.growthtrac.com/cgi-bin/ib311/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=3;t=81;st=0)
thanks,will check it out.
How would you handle it if it were your husband?
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Twiglet @ Nov. 28 2003,01:34)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]a phase or should i confront him? I could really use some advice on this,thanks.
:help:[/quote]
One person was into gambling. His wife finally gave him an ultimatum. She packed up the kids and the bags and was ready to walk out the door. He saw what he would be losing and gave up his gambling for his family.
I'm with Booty on the difference in this being a "live-in" or a "marriage" mate.
Nelta
Nelta, she already said it was her husband.
I would say that it is a problem if he is getting up early and staying up late to do this. However, I would caution you to make sure that 'that' is what he is doing, and that you aren't just assuming. That would cause division in the relationship if he was in fact just surfing and not looking at porn.
That is all, I will excuse myself now.
I'm going on what happened before - he is following the same pattern i.e. withdrawing from me emotionally and physically and spending more and more time online.
I also checked the history button on computer - looking for something unrelated and there were sites listed that were obviously porn
Twiglet,
Sorry for the question, but it would indeed flavour my response.
Now with your husband, there is no greater aphrodasiac for a relationship than love. Love that is based on the Lord and a shared faith is the greatest excitement a man or woman can feel.
As a man, to be sure a pretty form can turn my head, but only for the briefest of seconds because I see the damage my mere looking could do to the woman I so dearly love.
Why do I love her? Well because she is indeed my best friend. She is the one person I can turn to and know with certainty that if I ask her to just listen, she will. No condemnations, no recriminations, not even any advice unless I ask for it. Just a person who listens.
As I try to listen to her as well, without judgement, just allow her to share her hopes, dreams, fears and concerns. We all need that. Some of us found that person in our Lord. Some of us are even more fortunate that He has matched us up in this world with the person that can listen to us.
Where am I going? Well a good physical relationship does not start with sex. It starts with the basic human relationship first. As you said, he is more distant.... Well Twiglet if he has distanced himself and you love him, you need to go where he is to find him. And no I am not talking about porn sites, that is only a symptom, that is not the actual ill.
Your comment that "i know men get off on this stuff " strikes me as a little simplistic. I know I do not particularly "get off on this stuff" and I can assure you I am quite male. I know my wife will bear me out on that as well.
Twiglet now how does all this commence? Well it starts with you and our Lord. First you ask Him for His intervention and help. Then you go ahead and follow your man to where he is at trusting in the Holy Spirit. Your husband is a believer so start sharing your common Lord with him. Gte up a few hours earlier with him and try going to some of the sites like this one together on the net.
Sandi comes by me occasionally and we share sites even though we do have a language difference. Like right now I am studying what the Canadians call a constitution, (Hey it's something that interests me, constitutions in their various forms), and we have fun talking about it. We had a criac the other night investigating different dog breeds, (I like Dandie Dinmont Terriers!! Sandi likes beagles!! But I breed Rottweilers).
I wander in on her crocheting occasionally and she shows me interesting techniques. I ammher official quality control for her baking and she for my sermons. We both will take one of the pooches and work her or him for touch up training. We share, yesterday she took me to lunch and Tuesday I took her to lunch. This afternoon we shared a movie together.
Share is the key Twiglet and it begins with sharing your faith. Then when you share your bodies, it is only an extension of the base you have already formed.
God bless you, Twiglet, now go FIND your husband.
Brojees
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Talulah @ Nov. 28 2003,12:33)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Nelta, she already said it was her husband.
I would say that it is a problem if he is getting up early and staying up late to do this. However, I would caution you to make sure that 'that' is what he is doing, and that you aren't just assuming. That would cause division in the relationship if he was in fact just surfing and not looking at porn.
That is all, I will excuse myself now.[/quote]
Where I read she did not say it was her husband.
Nelta
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Twiglet @ Nov. 28 2003,05:16)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]sorry for any confusion - tis my husband[/quote]
See?
Since I fill out forms online - and since even my husband and children use my main email account to order things - I get some pretty raunchy emails.
Most are safely diverted to junk mail.
Some are so innocent-looking they get opened up--- and sometimes they lead to even worse stuff. Thank God Mike installed a pop-up blocker. It used to be like a field of sewer-flowers opening up on screen, sometimes.
If all anyone went by was history, they would have thought I was spending some time drooling over very badly-done porn websites. (Not only porn but stupid unartistic porn... double the insult!)
There's more and different stuff to be done than just snooping around in someone's files or history.
If the computer is shared by all the family and isn't off somewhere private that really is all the preparation needed... next thing is more communication.
Lots of "I feel" statements, few "you always" statements. ("I feel rejected when days go by without you coming to bed at the same time as me...", rather than "You always want to mess with the computer, you never want to spend time with me...")
I object to being accused of snooping around my husbands'
history list and files Janine. I was checking for an address i needed.
Thanks Booty - I'll try though it's difficult to know quite where he's at right now.
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Twiglet @ Nov. 29 2003,12:03)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I object to being accused of snooping around my husbands'
history list and files Janine. I was checking for an address i needed.[/quote]
Everyone who has a doubt about the conduct of mate OR children should certainly snoop around. If I had a hint that my mate was into ANYTHING unChristian or unlawful I would certain snoop. How else can we be helpers of one another if we hide our heads in the sand as one of our loved ones might be going down the drain...spiritually.
Too many parents think they have no business getting into private stuff of their children. Those are the kinds of children who are into something before the parents know about it. People have found out something their children were mixed up in by reading their diaries. Some were able to stop it and some checked too late. The experts tell parents the children are their responsibility and they MUST keep looking in the "hiding places" to keep tabs on their children and youth. Of course, it all hinges on whether there is agape (valuing souls) for family members. Granted some people are so selfish they are interested only in themselves and don't want to KNOW what their loves ones are doing.
Nelta
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Nelta @ Nov. 29 2003,3:19)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I object to being accused of snooping around my husbands'
history list and files Janine. I was checking for an address i needed.[/quote]
Everyone who has a doubt about the conduct of mate OR children should certainly snoop around. If I had a hint that my mate was into ANYTHING unChristian or unlawful I would certain snoop. How else can we be helpers of one another if we hide our heads in the sand as one of our loved ones might be going down the drain...spiritually.
Too many parents think they have no business getting into private stuff of their children. Those are the kinds of children who are into something before the parents know about it. People have found out something their children were mixed up in by reading their diaries. Some were able to stop it and some checked too late. The experts tell parents the children are their responsibility and they MUST keep looking in the "hiding places" to keep tabs on their children and youth. Of course, it all hinges on whether there is agape (valuing souls) for family members. Granted some people are so selfish they are interested only in themselves and don't want to KNOW what their loves ones are doing.
Nelta[/quote]
First of all, I had originally recused myself from this thread because I don't feel I have a right to give Christian advice (and I am still steering clear of that...) But, I must comment on this.
I can ASSURE you that if you go snooping around in your partners and/or childrens things that you will forever loose whatever respect they once had for you. (Twiglet, I am not talking about you, I understand you were looking for a url.) Yes, it is wrong to invade another person's privacy. The person you are invading will just find other ways to hide things you disaprove of and grow to hate and mistrust you while likely sinking deeper into the vice (if it even is a vice). I suspect I understand your motives. You want to ensure they are doing the 'right' things and on the straight and narrow. While I could understand if there was some illegal activity going on, just doing something 'you don't approve of' doesn't give you the right to employ controlling and trust damaging methods to invade another person's personal space. You should understand, that while what you are doing may have a good reason, the result will be very, VERY opposite of your goal.
Trust me.
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Nelta @ Nov. 29 2003,5:19)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I object to being accused of snooping around my husbands'
history list and files Janine. I was checking for an address i needed.[/quote]
Everyone who has a doubt about the conduct of mate OR children should certainly snoop around. If I had a hint that my mate was into ANYTHING unChristian or unlawful I would certain snoop. How else can we be helpers of one another if we hide our heads in the sand as one of our loved ones might be going down the drain...spiritually.
Too many parents think they have no business getting into private stuff of their children. Those are the kinds of children who are into something before the parents know about it. People have found out something their children were mixed up in by reading their diaries. Some were able to stop it and some checked too late. The experts tell parents the children are their responsibility and they MUST keep looking in the "hiding places" to keep tabs on their children and youth. Of course, it all hinges on whether there is agape (valuing souls) for family members. Granted some people are so selfish they are interested only in themselves and don't want to KNOW what their loves ones are doing.
Nelta[/quote]
Nelta,
I would never be able to contemplate marriage with anyone who expressed such an opinion as that. I frankly would not even consider friendship.
Sorry and you are free to live your life as you see fit, but I have my limits and that is beyond the pale for me.
Brojees
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I object to being accused of snooping around my husbands'
history list and files Janine. I was checking for an address i needed.[/quote]
??? Who said that was what you were doing? If you've unrestricted access to history or anything else in the family computer, is it snooping to take a wander through and look at what's there? (Yes, I believe you said something about innocently getting into history or other files and seeing things you questioned.)
Booty,
I really like the thoughts you put forth about the realtionship building, sharing, etc., but what if your mate has left that?
I mean, some spouses quit sharing, and withdraw. What if they will not allow you to share, and "be where they are"?
Pardon me for saying this, but some of the suggestions could be taken a bit patronizingly (I am sure that is not your intent, so please do not take any offense). What you describe as a marriage is very close to my wife and I, but I have seen alot of folks who don't have it that way. Yes, love is the greatest aphrodisiac, but what if the recipient is not receptive?
It seems almost as if the impetus in this case is on Twiglet, and I don't fully agree with that. It is as if the woman here is to win back the love of her husband by sharing and "being where he is", but what about him? If I were to beat my wife, would the solution be for her to come back and love me more? Where is my responsibility to love her more?
SOrry, maybe I am taking this a bit personally, but I have seen too many men who are so far under the godly standard as "head of the household", it is sickening. Too many times, we want to look at what the wife didor needs to do, when the reponsibility is on her husband.
I sincerely hope you do not take this as anything but discussion, with no intent towards you, Booty.
In Him,
Jonesy
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Jones518 @ Nov. 30 2003,03:41)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Booty,
I really like the thoughts you put forth about the realtionship building, sharing, etc., but what if your mate has left that?
I mean, some spouses quit sharing, and withdraw. What if they will not allow you to share, and "be where they are"?
Pardon me for saying this, but some of the suggestions could be taken a bit patronizingly (I am sure that is not your intent, so please do not take any offense). What you describe as a marriage is very close to my wife and I, but I have seen alot of folks who don't have it that way. Yes, love is the greatest aphrodisiac, but what if the recipient is not receptive?
It seems almost as if the impetus in this case is on Twiglet, and I don't fully agree with that. It is as if the woman here is to win back the love of her husband by sharing and "being where he is", but what about him? If I were to beat my wife, would the solution be for her to come back and love me more? Where is my responsibility to love her more?
SOrry, maybe I am taking this a bit personally, but I have seen too many men who are so far under the godly standard as "head of the household", it is sickening. Too many times, we want to look at what the wife didor needs to do, when the reponsibility is on her husband.
I sincerely hope you do not take this as anything but discussion, with no intent towards you, Booty.
In Him,
Jonesy[/quote]
Jonesy
No I do not take offense at your post. I do not though, agree with your point of view nor your analogies.
Frankly if what I have prescribed is as impossible as you would make it, then it would appear as if all vestiges of a sustainable marriage have ceased. Ever the incurable optimist, I do not find this finalistic view acceptable.
I do though agree with you that I olace a good bit of the onus on Twiglet, I do. I received a certain impression in her posts that have caused me to assign a certain culpability to her. I am not going to the extreme of accusing her of snooping as Janine has done, but none the less a certain flavour exists which leads me to believe Twiglet needs some time in prayer and confession. But then don't we all?
Actually though counseling only one party to a marriage is practically impossible and doing so long distance by internet is ludicrous. I do feel Twiglet and her husband would be well advised to seek professional help from a faith based counselor.
That is perhaps the best advice any can offer, for we have the distinct disadvantage of not being able to look into Twiglets eyes as she recounts of her difficulties. And what we can do for Twiglet is pray pray for her and her husband.
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]... I received a certain impression in her posts that have caused me to assign a certain culpability to her. I am not going to the extreme of accusing her of snooping as Janine has done, but none the less a certain flavour exists which leads me to believe Twiglet needs some time in prayer and confession. But then don't we all?...[/quote]
{*sigh*}
I did not mean to "accuse" Twiglet of snooping. Sorry if my awkward wording came out that way, Twiglet, everyone.
In the first place, "public" information on a family computer is there for me to look at any time I want, that's not snooping. Seems that's where she has seen sites/info she questions, in her efforts to use public info on the family computer.
Private information is stored away, locked, or in sites outside your own computer.
All I meant was, that while there is some limited usefulness in listing information culled from wandering in your computer, information about history etc., the real useful thing is more communication about whatever are the actual sources of friction.
Booty,
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I do though agree with you that I olace a good bit of the onus on Twiglet, I do. I received a certain impression in her posts that have caused me to assign a certain culpability to her. I am not going to the extreme of accusing her of snooping as Janine has done, but none the less a certain flavour exists which leads me to believe Twiglet needs some time in prayer and confession. But then don't we all?
Actually though counseling only one party to a marriage is practically impossible and doing so long distance by internet is ludicrous. I do feel Twiglet and her husband would be well advised to seek professional help from a faith based counselor.
[/quote]
I have to agree with you here--especially where you say "but don't we all". None of us ever spend enough time in prayer and confession-especially yours truely!. It will help Twiglet be more responsive to helping her husband.
IMO, any addiction to pornography has causes. It is a cause and effect based addiction. It may be something that occured between them that in her husband's thinking is blown out of porportion causing him to want to browse the porn sites or it may be loneliness due to circumstances beyond his control. Then again, it may be just plain curiosity on his part after looking at one or two that came up by accident as to how far porn really reaches. In any case, there is a trigger of some sort that set it off. He will have to figure out what the trigger is and try to keep a trigger lock in place to keep from having it squeezed. It is his addiction. Twiglet's part will have to be helping him keep the lock in place with alot of love and he may not realize she is doing that, which may be the best thing in some circumstances.
I see alot of love, understanding, and a real desire to reach out to her husband to claim him back coming from Twiglet, (and there are alot of wives who just don't care these days or browse the porn sites also). She will have to figure out how to do that. That is one thing none of us can advise her on because, as you said regarding the counseling: "doing so long distance by internet is ludicrous." The best thing we can really do is be listeners and supporters to her (and her husband if we ever get to chat with him). Since this isn't the first time he has been drawn into porn, I suspect he has a thought or two of how he might be hurting his relationship with his wife. However, if she shows as much of the characteristics to him when they do talk about how she feels as she shows here, I think he will become very receptive and he will be really upset with himself for allowing himself to drawn in again. Whether they decide that they need professional faith based help or not will be based on their particular circumstances. I don't think it is always a requirement, but it is an option.
IMO, pornography is just one form of the most untalked about and most dangerous addiction of them all---addiction to sex. It is more dangerous and less talked about than any form of chemical or physical addiction, and, with one or two exceptions, is totally legal and protected by our U.S. Constitution's Bill of Rights (something that has been carried way too far by Supreme Court liberal interpretation!). This addiction, in its different forms, reaches to all age groups and both sexes, and the effects can be devastating, lasting an entire lifetime. We now have it thrown at us in all forms of public and commercial media, everyday life, clothing, etc. When it is pumped at you night and day like it is right now--and getting worse--it takes alot of self control and disciplin to not become addicted to sex in one form of another or to think thoughts that shouldn't be thought.
Yes, Wiley, everything is all sexualized now in the media- for goodness' sake, commercials are. Everything.
I want to make a comment about the "snooping" thing. As a person in the computer business, these are my views.
If you as a spouse, parent, or guardian suspect that a loved one is involved in something that is dangerous to that person, it is not snooping to try to find out in order to help that person and save a relationship.
Here are a couple of suggestions for anyone concerned about the bad side of the web and their loved ones.
1. In regards to children, use parental control software and set it to a high level of security. You, the parent, control the password for access a site that is blocked. Set the history for a minimum of one week and check it regularly. By agreement of the entire family, let it be known that a computer is a public device, regardless of where it is, who is using it, or who it belongs to. As long as it is in your home, your are the system administrator and you have the say in what's appropriate. Also, use tracking software.
2. If you personally have a problem with adult content site access (and your will power is weak or you just don't want to ever be able to purposely browse those sites), ask a friend to think of a supervisory level (parental level) password and enter it for you in your computer after you have set the level of filtering you desire. After that, tell your spouse or a friend to write down the password and keep it in a safe place in case you need to make a change because of computer problems but not to tell you what the password is. Will this give absolute protection to accidental site access? No. But it will help by blocking many known sites and alot of unknown site by content analysis. This won't help keep you from accessing those sites on someelse's computer but it will help on your computer.
I personally use and recommend Norton Internet Security 2003 or 2004 for this. It has a very effective content control program along with a antivirus, spam control, and pop-up killer that actually work very well. There are other programs by other companies such as MacAfee, etc, that also work well.
There are also parental/business tracking programs that can be installed on a computer that track everything done on the computer and there are keystroke recording devices that plug into the computer between the keyboard and the CPU. Their recording ability is somewhat limited as to how much for how long but they do work. Remember, History files can be erased and Temp files can be deleted very easily. Cookies can also be removed individually but it takes a little more knowledge and time to remove the ones that correspond to specific sites with out removing the cookies that contain login and password direction to good sites. Something to keep in mind.
Of course the best thing to do is just "Say NO" to those sites if they do come up. However, for someone who has a tendency to be "curious" that is not always an easy thing to do.
"Snooping" for the right reasons is not snooping, it is simply caring for your loved ones and trying to protect them from getting hurt!
Well, guess I've thrown my two cents in now and that's probably about what my opinion is worth. :doh:
Booty,
Could i ask what impression i gave you for you to prompt your comment that i am culpable?(not sure if thats the right word but hope you understand what i mean)
Twiglet,
I am sorry that there are some who have given the impression that this is your fault...that you have not "loved your husband enough" or "understood enough"...that you were wrong to "invade your husband's privacy" to find the porn in the first place. What about the vows of being one in marriage? Of being faithful to each other? Why should there be a need for "private sites and correspondence" with the opposite sex anyway if one is in a marriage union? I have been there and know how you feel. You already feel deep down inside that there is something wrong with you or your husband would not have done such a thing. You feel that you must have done something wrong for him to withdraw from you, that if you could just be better that he would love you more and not have a need to go elsewhere for sex. But there is nothing wrong with you, and do not let others reinforce that feeling.
Not everyone has a "Perfect" marriage or that loving relationship that seems to beam with godliness. That is not an excuse for one spouse to be unfaithful (which cyber sex is) to the other. I think it is unfair and unkind of you, Booty, to make it appear that for some reason Twiglet is to blame for her husband looking at porn because of something she has done wrong (like maybe not showing him enough attention). I have news for you; some women can give their husbands 24 hour TLC and it makes no diffierence. Communication is a two way street, and if one spouse chooses not to do it, it is not always the fault of the other spouse or the fact that he/she is doing something wrong. Sometimes there is just plain old lust. You have a wonderful, perhaps unique, relationship with your wife and that is wonderful, but it is not fair to compare your relationship with that of someone who is struggling. You may not have meant it that way, but that is how it came across. It is an insult to all women who are going through or have gone through similar things as Twiglet has.
Also, for those who felt that Twiglet was invading her husband's privacy, she had every right to look at where her husband had been, especially if she felt he was being unfaithful to her. It is ridiculous to think that a wife must allow her husband access to filth in their own home in the name of "privacy". Would you allow your mate to bring a hooker into your living room or bedroom because that is their personal business? That is exactly what your mate is doing in a cyber sense when they have sex with themselves while viewing a porn site (and don't kid yourself--that IS what they do). The sex one has while talking to a partner in a chat room or porn site, or watching "live sex" is just as real as if the person was sitting in one's living room. It is degrading and insulting to one's spouse. If Twiglet's husband wants to look at porn that bad, then he can go to an internet cafe if he cannot control himself. To bring it into their home is an ultimate injury to Twiglet. Please, in the spirit of Christian love, do not continue to shoot the wounded in Twiglet's case. She came for support, not ridicule.
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Booty @ Nov. 29 2003,10:18)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Too many parents think they have no business getting into private stuff of their children. Those are the kinds of children who are into something before the parents know about it. People have found out something their children were mixed up in by reading their diaries. Some were able to stop it and some checked too late. The experts tell parents the children are their responsibility and they MUST keep looking in the "hiding places" to keep tabs on their children and youth. Of course, it all hinges on whether there is agape (valuing souls) for family members. Granted some people are so selfish they are interested only in themselves and don't want to KNOW what their loves ones are doing.
Nelta[/quote]
Nelta,
I would never be able to contemplate marriage with anyone who expressed such an opinion as that. I frankly would not even consider friendship.
Sorry and you are free to live your life as you see fit, but I have my limits and that is beyond the pale for me.
Brojees[/quote]
We are not talking about comtemplating marriage. We are talking about those who are already married or who have children. There is a responsibilty we have to one another. We can simply shun that responsibility "because we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings or appear to be snooping" or we can help that person in the same why we would want help. Booty, if you are headed down the road to destruction would you want your wife to simply say, "I'm ok, you're ok?" Well, maybe you would want that, but not me and not anyone else I know who is interested in the welfare of their family.
"Snooping" is the name of the game as we have agape for our family. We are told to "ever be watchful." If you were never checked on by your wife and you were into some "besetting sin" how would you feel as you stand in judgement before God? Might you say to her "Why didn't you care enough to find out that what I was doing was sinful?"
If we don't try to help our mate then we are in affect, condoning what is going on. Same with out children. Children need constant watching as they grow in adulthood. They are gifts from God and He gave parents the responsibility of knowing what they are doing, and guiding them in the right way.
Snoop away, fellow Christians. You might be able to help someone save his/her soul.
Nelta
Nelta
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]..........Snoop away, fellow Christians. You might be able to help someone save his/her soul.
[/quote]
Uhh--are actually agreeing on something? It hasn't snowed in Texas in July yet!!! :thinking: :0 :thumbup:
Please don't take what I have said as a free license,for snooping on a spouse just because you are curious. That would be wrong with a spouse. However, if there is smoke, then you better start looking for the fire so it can be put out before it consumes the structure. Then beware of a reburn!
With children, a no-burn policy is the only way to go until they are not under your legal control. Some kids can be totally trusted. Experience with your own children will tell you how far to go. As far as someelse's are concerned, speaking from personal experience, don't think that they will just automatically abide by your rules if they are already into something they shouldn't be. Fire has a tendancy to spread rather quickly when enough combustibles are thrown on the fire and into its burn path.
Wiley,
It may snow in Puerto Piritu, You are agreeing with Nelta and I am disagreeing with you. I believe I will go instruct the pooches how we wll handle the white stuff! Sorry, but I am decidedly anti snoop. Marriage is a contract of trust and honour. Snooping has no place in either of those concepts for me. Not even well intentioned snooping.
Twiglet. . . Two particular comments by you stood out to me and were very influential in forming my impression, the first was the "partner" but the second was saying something to the effect that you "Understood guys get off to this". As a Guy, I confess, I actually find that patronizing and offensive. Perhaps that unduly influenced the rest of my impression.
But I will formly say this, anyone absolving one spouse of all culpability in the failure of the other spouse is not adhering to the Biblical concept of two flesh being made one. The degree of culpability is variable, but in a marriage there always is some shared culpability.
Booty,
Thanks for responding to my question. I am sorry if i offended you in any way by my comment. Perhaps it was the wrong phrase to use - i intended to make the point that imo men (and after reading some of the posts i guess i ought to include some women) have a tendancy to be drawn to this stuff.
I don't really understand the problem you have with my using the term partner at times in place of husband - he is my husband but he is also my partner - marriage is a partnership.
as for culpability - yes,perhaps i need to shoulder some of the blame for what's happened - if i had been more attentive or more loving at times perhaps things would not have got to this stage :cry:
Ah, Twigs, it is not a bad thing to look at relationship adjustments that can be made, or to take into account how one's actions might have helped another to fall into some trouble... I try to do that, to help out my mate. Heaven knows he has a hard enough row to hoe living with me...
But that is a far far cry from taking upon yourself the blame for another adult's actions, honey. Don't do it.
Only Jesus ever did that with good results.
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]yes,perhaps i need to shoulder some of the blame for what's happened - if i had been more attentive or more loving at times perhaps things would not have got to this stage [/quote]
Well, that's great, Booty. You have convinced Twiglet that she is to blame for her husband's being into porn. Way to go. Now she has that guilt to deal with on top of already feeling crummy because of what her husband is doing. This is unbelievable for a Christian forum. Lee, how would your Family Dynamics approach this, would it also find the woman to blame without even knowing the circumstances?
Booty,
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Snooping has no place in either of those concepts for me. Not even well intentioned snooping.
[/quote]
Well, we have to disagree on SOMETHING at least ONCE a year! :p :D
In mine and Nelta's case, well, I guess we have to agree on SOMETHING at least ONCE every year or so. Well, maybe it's more like ONCE every three or four years :frowning:
My point with the snooping is this: if a spouse is doing something that he/she considers wrong and knows he/she is doing wrong against his/her spouse, that spouse is going to be extremly secretive in that behavior pattern. A spouse who is involved in that destructive behavior is not going to just come out and say he/she is involved in a destructive behavior. The other spouse is going to have to snoop (when there is smoke visible) to find out what that destructive behavior is and then lovingly confront the spouse. Please note, I am saying this under the condition that there is something suspicious going on that has alerted the other. You and will agree that there is a trust factor involved here but there is also a "caring enough for your spouse factor" to investigate (snoop) when there is an obvious problem occuring. IMO, to not try to find out what is going on and help your spouse is not living up to the vows that we make before God. God does indeed change us from being two equal people into one person in marriage and that is a part of the wonderfull mystery that is called marriage. But when there is a secret destructive behavior involved that is not disclosed in that oneness, ISTM that there is no longer that total oneness and to reclaim that oneness requires actions that would not normally be done. in regards to a spouse.
With regards to children, I am in favor of openly snooping and openly using whatever software/hardware is available to protect them in all areas of life. That includes letting the children know up front that as a parent, there is no such thing as privacy of children when it involves their safety and well being. The world has become an extremly dangerous place for children, especially girls, and teens especially can be totally silent about so many things they do. Protecting my children from something that can hurt them is something that I personally did and would do again using all methods available (which I had to do only one time as a preventive action and it worked really well). My girls knew how I felt and they used that as "a protective umbrella" all through high school. I wasn't known around the teenage boys who were total trouble AND the local main drug dealer at the time as being totally crazy for no reason at all :0
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]But I will formly say this, anyone absolving one spouse of all culpability in the failure of the other spouse is not adhering to the Biblical concept of two flesh being made one. The degree of culpability is variable, but in a marriage there always is some shared culpability.[/quote]
I have to agree with you on this as stated.
Band of Angels,
The reality of two fleshes joined into one is not appropriate for a Christian Forum? I heartily disagree. The concept is Biblically based irrespective of what Family Dynamics may have to say in the matter.
Perhaps if more of us would accept the concept that we are united into one and each shares in the sucesses and failures of the other there would be less of the He Said/She Said blame assignment, less strife and less divorce.
I see in you a certain hypersensitivity to this issue and perhaps a personalization. I pray you would step back and consider very carefully what I am saying and what now I see Wiley agrees with.
Twiglet,
First and foremost you need to seek faith based help local to you. The internet is no substitute for this and delay can only hurt.
Next, I mean you no harm in pointing out the Biblical reality that as a joined flesh we do share in the culpability for our spouses failure. These failures are indeed as well our failures. The Bible clearly established this concept and I accept it. If anyone is interested in this theological discussion, it would be an excellent one for the Theology Forum.
As well, in any healthy marriage, one first must judge ones self prior to ever judging your mate. Personally I know when I judge myself, very little time is ever left over for judging Sandi. In fact I frequently arrive at the point where I simply fall to my knees and thank Him that this wonderful woman suffers my failings in such love and support.
Does Sandi have faults? Why I am sure she must, we are after all each and every one of us sinners. She must have some faults, perhaps with time? A concept alien to her culture? But then perhaps not, as my fault of impatience is so much more pronounced. Perhaps she is too generous? But then I really can not say for I am too busy struggling with my own selfishness. Or could she be not attentive enough to my needs? I do need to check on that after I resolve my sin of being entirely too demanding.
And here I am realizing that once again I simply do not have the time to judge Sandi, perhaps when I get through with my own self.
Wiley,
My friend I am not abdicating parental responsibility nor do I believe you are accusing me of same. But I use a much different approach where snooping would destroy the entire Honour based system.
Accepting someone at their word means that I can not then snoop, for if I do, I have been less than honest in my acceptance of their word. I have been dishonourable and as such I have destroyed the bond of honour.
The Honour System requires a certain drama to be effective. Part of that drama is accheived by jealously guarding the privacy of all participating in the system. A difficult and frightening concept, but well worth the results if adhered to.
Under the Honour System, the participants actually become more critical and stricter with them selves than they ever do under a protective system. We are indeed our own harshest judges.
maybe Booty,but you seem to be judging me :moping:
???
Just a few more remarks. A loving mate knows when a change comes over the other person. There are hints, there is smoke. This is when snooping MUST take place if you love your mate. However, snooping for the sake of snooping is not what we are talking about. My husband has the same routine he has had for 50 years. He has never given me a reason to snoop, because there has never been any smoke. However, if "smoke" appears I will be 'johnny on the spot' to check it out. BTW so would he to me.
The same with children. Some children in a family need no snooping. My younger daughter was that way. We never had a reason to think she was into anything she shouldn't be. For one thing she excelled in music and was forever practicing and going to contests.
But our middle daughter was a different story. When she was very small we all went for a walk and a dog came at her. Had her dad not been close the dog would have attacked her. From then on she was afraid of dogs and did not like them, even our own.
When she was in Jr. High there was a boy at Church who "fell in love" with her. She also liked him. We wouldn't let her have much to do with him because he had been into drug....etc. His mother said she had prayed for someone to enter his life that could be a good influence on him. She said God had answered her prayer in our Stacy. I said I would not sacrifice my child as an example to someone who had been on drugs. (I know this is long but it has a point.:-))
One day our daughter put the leash on our big Dalmation and started out for a walk. Here came the smoke. She had never shown that dog any attention and the dog was hard to handle on a walk because she was so large.
I said to my husband..."Oh Oh!" The smoke was thick. So we go in the car and at a safe distance followed her. Shor-nuff. She was meeting this boy. We took her home.
She thanked us later because that boy grew up, married, and spent time in jail for drugs.
Anyway I say this to say that if we love our "loved-ones" we will do all we can to help them....even snooping.
Nelta
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Twiglet @ Dec. 01 2003,11:27)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]maybe Booty,but you seem to be judging me :moping:[/quote]
How so Twig? How am I judging you?
I'm sorry but i can't cope with this anymore and am bowing out of this discussion. Thanks to all who have posted here on this thread and pm'd.
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]And here I am realizing that once again I simply do not have the time to judge Sandi, perhaps when I get through with my own self.[/quote]
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]The Honour System requires a certain drama to be effective. Part of that drama is accheived by jealously guarding the privacy of all participating in the system. A difficult and frightening concept, but well worth the results if adhered to.
Under the Honour System, the participants actually become more critical and stricter with them selves than they ever do under a protective system. We are indeed our own harshest judges.[/quote]
Booty,
This is all well and good, but there are a lot of spouses that are not their own harshest judges. They don't necessarily adhere to the honour system as stated here. Twiglet seems to be facing that, a husband who is not being very forthright. What then? The circumstances are different and discussing what is the perfect system doesn't provide much help.
I know you don't mean it this way, but it comes across as downright condescending. Here Twiglet comes to this board to get some advice, and what she hears is basically, "Well, if you did things the way Sandi and I do, then you wouldn't be in this predicament." The things that you and Sandi do are not necessarily applicable here.
Yes, Twig needs some real help, and the internet is not a provider of that. But, while she is here, I am not going to go on about how great my marriage setup is while she is hurting in less than appealing circumstances.
In Him,
Jonesy
Jonesy,
Do you really think Twig came for help?
And why would I not use my own relationship as an example of how I believe a relationship should be? Did you not notice I was constantly and consistently providing the example that we are to judge our own selves first. Once again a Biblical concept. Is there also something wrong with that concept?
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Do you really think Twig came for help?
And why would I not use my own relationship as an example of how I believe a relationship should be? Did you not notice I was constantly and consistently providing the example that we are to judge our own selves first. Once again a Biblical concept. Is there also something wrong with that concept?[/quote]
Yes, basically I DID think she came here for help of some sort. Those were her original intentions. You may read something into it or have a greater experience with posts of this nature, I just saw a question being asked.
Yes, we know how a relationship should, and you certainly have a strong one. I am just not too sure that is what would be needed immediately in a situation like this. TO me it seemed a bit like this: I walked into a patch of quicksand, through my own fault. I need help but what I get is someone who tells me where I SHOULD have walked. That may help in the future, but at present I am currently sinking.
That is the way I read the original request for advice, and me telling her what basis my marriage rests on does not help her at present.
Not trying to be difficult, just looking at it through maybe a different set of eyes than you.
In Him,
J
Booty,
Please take a step back and read Jonesy's comments with an objective eye and an open heart.
I think you'll see he makes some valid points.
Richard
Perhaps I am simply less perceptive? I really haven't seen anything beyond discussion and illustration of points - no big condescension here.
In our marriage, Mike has bent over backwards, beyond anything I really think he needs to do, to be accountable to me. I wish he'd loosen up a little. Like always bringing me or the daughter with him when he visits women friends (for church stuff or to help them with computer, home repairs, etc.). I have no insecurities there but he wants me with him.
We both of us came so close to falling into affairs during a temporary separation back in 1987- it was a scary time. I guess we came back from it stronger.
This rough spot we're in right now- I've spoken pretty openly about it to many of you, it's no secret- makes us pay extra attention to "accountability" for want of a better word.
As far as the Internet goes, he has our computer out in the dining area where all who enter through the front door, back door, all who enter from the carport or the kitchen, all who sit watching TV a few feet away, can see what is onscreen. So any time I talk to any of you or post here it may be with an audience.
Some of my best advice comes from them putting their two cents in. :announceit: I am glad they're so often here, really, 'cause my warm way of speaking has gotten me into a fix more than once... What passes for the traditional Southern esteem and genteel flirtation in live conversation sometimes takes on a life of its own in text. You can imagine the apologies I've had to make. :blush: :blush:
Sorry you felt badly about the replies here Twiglet. If it makes the situation any clearer, I know these people, some as well as one can via a text relationship, and no one had a desire to be hurtful.
Most especially me, honey.
Nelta,
I may have mis-understood you. Your example is a perfect one of attentive parents keeping their children accountable and out of harms way. I don't think that was snooping at all. So, I am thinking maybe we have different definitions of snooping. I have far more issues with parents and spouses who want to be thought police than parents who want to make sure their children are where they say they are going to be.
Twiglet,
I am addressing this post personally to you as I want to share a great website with you that may be a source of information and great comfort. It is a resource to victims on many issues including sexual addiction. It is www.NewLife. com. You can also call 1-800-New Life.
"New Life Clinics" is a group of doctors and counselors from a Christian organization formerly known as Minirth-Meier Clinics. They give Biblical counseling for many of life's problems through many books and a daily live radio program (where I first heard of their clinics). The website will give you a link to help with sexual addiction and has many wonderful books by people like Steve Arterburne, Henry Cloud, John Townsend and others. I am sure if you have been in a Christian bookstore, you have seen some of their books. They also have clinics in several cities in the USA with medical doctors, psychologists, and counselors who are Christian, and who counsel using Biblical principles. Two good books they have that give information about dealing with porn is Every Man's Battle and Addicted to Love both by Steve Arterburne. For those who have ever attended a Promise Keepers convention, these books were probably mentioned. Please give the website a try and I think you will find some answers.
After this post, I too will back away from the discussion. Obviously there are different opinions on this issue and it is counterproductive to try to make someone understand who has never had it happen to them. One thing I will emphasize as strongly as I can is that you should not take responsibility for your husband's addiction, even if your marriage has not been the perfect one. In a sense, if you do that, you are enabling him to continue in his sin, and it will cause you to spiral further down into depression. I am not saying that any relationship does not have a need for improvement in some areas for both partners, but it does not mean that you shoulder the blame for what he does.
If you study sexual addiction and the effects of a husband's involvement in porn on women (granted some women are also addicted but the number is few compared to men), you will find that the first reaction of the wife is to feel that it is her fault...that she has done something wrong. This usually leads to depression and a lack of self-worth, and guilt. I lived through this myself and can testify to that fact. You feel like dirt. Not only because your husband is engaging in porn in your very home, but because his doing it makes you feel like you are worthless and undesirable.
My husband had been involved in porn for at least two years before I found out. You see I had always trusted him and never "snooped" in his personal computer, even when I knew there were signs that he was doing some of these things.
So, Twiglet, take care, and do something special for yourself this week.
BandofAngels,
Thankyou. I hope others will take on board what you have said and realise just how much this affects marriages. I will check out the website and try and get copies of the books.
You will be in my thoughts and prayers.
Twiglet x
Twiglet,
I am not sure if New Life has clinics in the United Kingdom where you are, but it is possible. I'm sure their website would tell you. If not, at least the books and other resources will possibly be of help. You will also be in my prayers. Do not feel alone in this. I am convinced that there are many, many people effected by the same problem we have, possibly even people on this board.
Bandofangels
Twiglet,
Start with prayer and the Lord's Word first. While it may not always say what we want to hear, it does say what we need to hear.
And then with your local pastor second. Be somewhat leary of commerial counseling. New Life is the old Minirth-Meier Clinic under a new name. While I am sure there are many decent counselors there, I at the same time must question their profit motive.
Do be careful and start with you pastor. Allow him to work with you or recommend a professional he trusts.
Booty,
I have made an appointment to see my minister at the end of this week.
BandofAngels,
love & prayers
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Twiglet @ Dec. 02 2003,10:45)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Booty,
I have made an appointment to see my minister at the end of this week.
BandofAngels,
love & prayers[/quote]
Twiglet,
I will keep you in my prayers.
God Bless
Brojees
It will help if your minister is someone your husband loves and respects as well as you do, Twiglet.
And Band of Angels, you are doing God's work if you use your own experiences to help others.
Bless you both.
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I have made an appointment to see my minister at the end of this week.[/quote]
Twiglet,
One thing I failed to mention is that I also spoke with my pastor before I did anything else. He was very supportive and wanted to counsel with both my husband and me (but my husband did not want to). My pastor did not feel comfortable counseling me alone with this problem, but he recommended that I seek Christian counseling, and he helped me find the particular counselor I mentioned who specialized in this area. His advice was that whether my husband was open to help or not, I needed counseling for my own peace of mind. Some pastors are more skilled than others at counseling a problem of this nature. Maybe yours will be one that is able to do so.
Message deleted from thread and sent privately to Twiglet.
Well,the appointment with my minister went well and he is being supportive but as with BandofAngels would be happier counselling the pair of us. There is no way my husband will come to counselling with me. I don't really know where to go from here.
I am praying about it but to be honest it feels as if i am hitting a brick wall and i'm not sure where's best to read in the bible to help with this particular problem - perhaps someone can suggest a particular book/chapter etc?
thanks
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Twiglet @ Dec. 07 2003,07:01)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Well,the appointment with my minister went well and he is being supportive but as with BandofAngels would be happier counselling the pair of us. There is no way my husband will come to counselling with me. I don't really know where to go from here.
I am praying about it but to be honest it feels as if i am hitting a brick wall and i'm not sure where's best to read in the bible to help with this particular problem - perhaps someone can suggest a particular book/chapter etc?
thanks[/quote]
Psalm 37
:cry: nothing is helping :cry:
twiglet
ON YOUR KNEES
OFF THE COMPUTER
PRAY
And when you pray, believe that He will respond. In His time and in His way, but He will respond.
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (BandofAngels @ Dec. 01 2003,05:48)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Lee, how would your Family Dynamics approach this, would it also find the woman to blame without even knowing the circumstances?[/quote]
Bandofangels,
I'm sorry for the delay in response. I didn't see this post until today.
Though I am not a marriage-seminar leader or therapist at Family Dynamics, I can speak to that question a little. Family Dynamics believes that most marriage problems are not the fault of only one person. It takes two to make a marriage good or bad.
Even in cases of affairs, we don't put all the blame on the "cheating" spouse. Though he or she has certainly done wrong, the "offending spouse" probably was not receiving fulfillment in some area of his or her marriage relationship and sought it else ware as is human nature. In the case of an affair, most of the time, each spouse shares a blame.
In the case of pornography addiction, it is very difficult to say. The addiction could be carried over from childhood or events that happened then. The husband (in this case) addicted to pornography can be even if his wife is fulfilling him sexually. The addiction to porn is based mostly on fantasy and not reality. Therefore, though porn addiction can be started because of someone's spouse, it is not usually the case. In most cases it started because he "happened upon" a nude picture that visually aroused him. Over a short period of time, he began needing more hardcore pictures and videos to temporarily satisfy him.
After a few increases in the intensity level needed to temporarily satisfy him, his wife would not be able to keep up even if she wanted to. It would be impossible to fulfill the fantasies he has developed physically or ethically.
I have dealt with porn addicts before and usually tell them to eliminate all connections to the Internet and to be accountable to their spouse for every second of the day. Have the computer in the living room, out in the open so that everyone can see what's going on. The spouse of the addict can ask any question about any time of the day. Also, notify a minister or pastor so he (or she) can be a spiritual guide. The important thing is to stop the cycle and replace the addiction with healthy sexual fulfillment from his or her spouse. It is also a good idea to pray over the computer used to view the porn and dedicate it to God. Believe it or not, that (dedicating the computer to God) has been extremely effective.
Lee
Thanks for responding to my post, Lee. Maybe I was being too sensitive and personal about the topic.
However, from experience I know how a woman feels when her spouse chooses to engage in this type of thing. The first thing you do is blame yourself and think if you had been more desirable, or better in some way, that your husband would not turn from you to someone or something else for satisfaction.
That was the point I was trying to get across. It seemed that there were some putting the blame on Twiglet for her husband's addiction, and I do not believe that is the case. As you say, usually when there is a relationship problem, there are concerns and some fault on both sides. However, sometimes as you also say, the husband (or wife) just comes across porn on the internet and the problem takes off from there without the fault of anyone else.
I guess I was relating with Twiglet in that I know how it feels to be "alone" in this problem with no one to understand, and have those you turn to for help cause you more guilt by suggesting that somehow you caused the problem.
Having your husband turn to porn instead of you is devastating to a woman's self-esteem...devastating! I think if husbands knew how it made their wives feel (providing they love their wife), then they would do everything in their power to overcome the problem even if it means getting help.
I do not know Twiglet (as probably no one else does either) nor do I know what relationship problems may exist between she and her husband. However, I do understand the pain she is dealing with.
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]:cry: nothing is helping :cry:[/quote]
Have you a timetable, honey?
How long have you been married, how long ago was the first big problem incident in the marriage, how fast must Jesus fix this?
Not nagging, just wondering.
No.I haven't a timetable.
I've been married for over 17 years
the first major problem to hit the marriage was about 5 yrs ago
what do you mean - how fast must Jesus fix this? I don't expect Him to fix it within a certain time limite but any sign that things are improving would help me keep going and not just give up.
Twiglet first off, tell your husband what he is doing isn't right in any shape form or fashion.
Let him know the consequences of lust and sin.
Sit right behind him when he goes to get on that computer.
Put a bible on the desk the computer is on.
Ask him if he has looked at porn everyday.
And if all else fails, tell someone else and then tell the church if that fails.
If you and your husband are believers, you are part of the Church, I hope your congregation is one that is mature in a way strong enough to understand 1 Corinthians 5.
Pornography is a serious problem, I know because I have been there as many other young people my age have been.
Lusting after images on the computer is no different than committing adultery, and that is a serious breach of trust in your marraige. Your husband needs to realize that, and he needs to understand the consequences of his actions with regard to your marraige and his relationship with the Church.
Also remember that as a believer your husband is first accountable to God even before you. Don't be afraid to follow the actions of 1 Corinthians 5, if all other routes have been sought after. Its not because you have given up, or you can't deal with him anymore, actions such as those taken in 1 Corinthians 5 are done out of love
Condoning your husbands behaviour is the same as giving him a death sentence.
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]... I don't expect Him to fix it within a certain time limit but any sign that things are improving would help me keep going and not just give up.[/quote]
Yes, I know what you mean, sometimes just a little sign of improvement will make the process of working thru stuff with a spouse much more bearable.
Clifty..[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Condoning your husbands behaviour is the same as giving him a death sentence. [/quote]
I am sorry, but I think that statement is way out of line. What it does is bring fear to the person and does no good. Lust cannot be bandaged. Let's suppose this husband stops looking at porn and so he buries it deep inside only to have it emerge eons later. During the time he quits is he now okay? Who created us with those desires? Who has come to set us free? Stopping something by coercion (sp)or fear, is not going to help. "It is not what enters into a man that makes him unclean". The porn is not the problem. If this man shows love and is not being beat up by those who think they have the cure, then wait on God no matter how long it takes. It is God that delivers. I struggled myself with this for ahwile and now it has no hold on me and I am free. Sin is not counted as sin anymore BECAUSE of freedom and because of a clean heart, which has nothing to do with me being "good".
seekr
Dear Twiglet and all others, Brothers and Sisters,
First of all, thanks for some open forum like this. I suspect we can discuss these things in a manner to help, assist and explore some what happens in everyday lives, relationships and marriages.
Twiglet, as sterile and straight forward as this post is, please know my heart is with you and yours. My prayer tonight includes you, for sure. I use drivetime to work to pray, too. You will be there. God Bless in a special healing way all involved!
I haven't read every message in this thread. My response is directed to the part on pornography, repeating perhaps what others have said already. Well, here are some thoughts from a man's point of view.
First of all, we simply cannot generalize and assume most men are driven by some special "dumb brains
Dear Brothers and Sisters,
I tried to edit my most recent post but "the site" told me I did not have permission to do that. I wanted to take out some of the stuff and put in more LOVE, more prayer, more encouragement to Twiglet. That is the true focus and in the last post I made, well, I got to opinionating from stuff I have read, seen, etc. One thing does strike me as important, I think this is from Band of Angels:
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]However, sometimes as you also say, the husband (or wife) just comes across porn on the internet and the problem takes off from there without the fault of anyone else.
[/quote]
This is very, very true. Sure, when I first got on the internet and got Google, I did an image search. The results told me that the internet is truly full of pornography and it is much, much more explicit than expected. This sickened me. Yet, at the same time, I did want to go back and look again! Sad! True! Temptations are there and it really takes discipline to avoid it. It is too, too easy.
I got scared to think that someone would think this is what I do, which I do not, spent a lot of time deleting every cookie, etc. I simply do not go there...it is a temptation and a temptation some are more prone to go back to than others. I was able to escape it, with the prayer for "God, remind me to not do this." Demons are always ready to lead us to more temptation.
I have a coworker who plays video games. Now, these are not pornographic at all(example, Star Wars Gallaxy, paid for monthy to play the game) but the addiction is very similar. When the games are interactive, on the net with others playing, they tell me there is a rush of euphoria, an excitement to it. This is addictive. They tell me it is!! I believe them. The pornography sites are not much different in the effect, I would suspect.
So, I do pray for anyone who finds unnatural euphoria on the net. I do pray for you, Twiglet and specially for your guy.
The addictive fantasy is one very difficult to put down...whether a "safe" video game or one that leads to thoughts which are very unGodly and can truly affect relationships. I do pray. That is the main point. I pray that God see the reasons why, not blame, the reasons and will bring and end to the problem within freewill, even it that means exposing all that have created it within their hearts! That is a tough prayer. That prayer when answered will mean some adjustment. God would be pleased with the adjustment? Yes, if more Godliness returns and a better road is found. Tough stuff. My heart cries.
God Bless. TomDart.
Keeping in mind all this practical stuff and personal observation Tom has brought up - Maurine has an excellent point.
If we can get the behavior modified, that's nice, but just stopping the behavior does not cleanse one from sin.
Dear Janine,
I will quote here one of my favorite scriptures and one that is used on one of my email addresses as a "signature":
"For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." Ephesians 6:12
This so so true! The fight must include all our gospel armor. We sometimes foolishly assume we are wearing that armor. Not so, we must put it ON! And prayer helps a lot in that along with faith in the power of the Spirit to work with God for us.
Still, the sin is not cleansed? Or, from the believing heart is it cleaned or not? But repeated, repeated, forced into the very face of God. That last part is what frightens me. When we stop something, move on, are cleansed by grace and then fall back. But to sin with determination to sin( that is what it is when we do the same sinful things time and time again) we are being "in your face" to God. That is frightening and submission to the very core is needed with the help of God to raise us up by our boot straps. No person can do that alone. Help is needed, whether from the Spirit of the Holy One movng strongly to convict and convince, from practical turns around the sinful person as consequences of actions...etc. Help is needed. Ultimately, help means turning to God in submission and repentence with a prayer for strength to resist the very real demons the evil one has launched against us. Whatever it takes to get to that point.... that is my prayer. Might get rough along the way.
The practical "in this world" consequences of sin, including in this particular case the "perceived consequences" such as cookies, computer memories and hidden temp files... these things can bring the effect of "consequences" into the real world and fear. The fear is justified by the actions. If this brings the person to God, praise God!. If this brings the person to realize the need to back off the sinful stuff...praise God for that! Too often the "personal sin" seen as simple and unharmful to others is terribly harmful to others and is certainly harmful to the one doing the sin, over and over again. Something has to hit the heart and say BACK OFF and get a grip and move on. Be forgiven and move on. Reaility of the consequences is a good motivator to stop any sinful actions. Reality that God does forgive is also needed, desperately! Guilt must be relieved and forgiveness by God understood. A heart in guilt is not a heart able to be active for the good God wants us to do.
These things are deep and can leave deep scars. I do pray that the scars are shallow and the healing complete. Believe me, that is my prayer. As I speak that is my prayer.
Janine, Good point you made.
God Bless. Merry Christmas! TomDart.