[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Arkstfan @ Jan. 30 2003,10:19)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Nothing is said in the scriptures about having 7up and cornbread in the Lord's supper. So according to the author's reasoning that is an abiblical question.[/quote]
No you are mixing your logic here.
Scripture tells us a lot of things that baptism does but it never says that it is the mystical moment of reconcilliation with God.
As to the Lord's Supper all we know about 7-up is that it hadn't been invented yet and the folks from Europe, Asia and Africa who transversed the Middle East had yet to make it to the Americas to discover corn (while we are at it they hadn't found potatoes yet either).
Passages dealing with the Lord's Supper only tell us of the use of what they did have.[/quote]
Hello Ark,
I was taking a principle from the event of the Lord's supper. The fact that they didn't have 7up or cornbread when the scriptures were given wouldn't have a bearing on the principle.
Of course, baptism is spoken of as the moment of entrance into the body of Christ. Upon obedience to the command to be baptized Christ adds to His body (see Acts 2)....where all spiritual blessings are....including salvation. We are clothed with Christ, we put on Christ...
Nelta
Nelta Brock
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Hello Charlie -
You ask an intriguing question. I'm not sure that I comprehend your intent completely - but I'll give it a stab.
I think one of the hard parts of understanding grace is that it is not contingent upon our doing, our reaffirming or our performance. Many think that if they should somehow not measure up along the way, that God will revoke His blessing. That is absolutely false. But let me be clear, ALL are called to be perfectly obedient. God demands that as a minimum, doesn't he? But there is a problem. It's sin. None of us, not one of us can measure up. But someone did - perfectly to the point of dying for you and for me. God's love is perfectly revealed in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus, our Lord and Savior. His grace is not contingent upon us at all. It is contingent upon one's acceptance of His free gift of eternal life by trusting in Jesus alone. And then, during our lives in Christ Jesus, God by His mercy and grace continues to work in each of us - the process of sanctification - to mold us into the image of Jesus Christ. That sanctification process is accomplished through His transforming grace. And it is by His grace that one day we will be glorified - actually made perfect in Christ's image.
So, Charlie, it isn't whether or not the bridge is sound. That bridge is our absolute assurance (to continue with the metaphor). The question to be asked, perhaps, is "How intimate is my relationship with God"? Am I trusting in Jesus completely or am I attempting to gain favor or secure my salvation by what I can do. Our best is nothing but bloody rags. So where does that leave us? In a desperate state needing to cling to the righteousness of our Lord.
So, I would suggest that the bridge is absolutely fine, dependable, trustworthy and sound. What is our motivation in having a relationship with God? Is it out of a terribly deep reverential and humbling love for the Almighty God, Creator of the universe, our Savior and Redeemer who we are actually indwelled by? Or is our motivation born out of our need to do something to earn or gain favor? I believe the latter brings a burden too heavy and yoke too hard. Jesus promises an easy yoke and light burden (or vica versa).
Well, I hope I addressed your thoughtful question. And if I didn't I hope these words might find a purpose in yours or someone's life.
Blessings to you.
Steve
i find your points interesting segell, and i'll try to respond in more length later (as for now, just got off work and i'm going home!)
may i just point out that the Bible never says "repent because you're already saved", and never says "confess Christ because you're already saved" or "be baptized because you're already saved" to non-Christians.
the greeks and hebrews had ways of wording sentences that could make it known that our submission was because we were already in a saved state. and they don't do so.
i'll certainly try to look up those books, but please forgive me if i continue to comment on here before i've read them.
again grace is given because of our faith. it is there waiting to be "faith-ed" in. but is not extended to those without faith.
faith is not just belief. it's not just sorrow. it's not just repentence or confession or just baptism. it's all of these things. in encompasses every aspect of us
*belief is hearing and assigning due credit and accuracy to the truth
*sorrow and repentence indicated a remorse for our past
*confession is a verbal use of the tongue to express our belief (from the tongue comes what is in the heart)
*baptism is a physical act of the body that clothes us with Christ as a cry by our conscience for the washing away of our past AND THE raising for a new future
*and evangelism is the enaction of obedience that makes up that future
thus is the whole of man made submissive to servanthood of God just as Christ was submissive (to the point of death) doing what it took "to fulfill all righteousness"
again segell, even if you use the word reliance, that is a choice, a performance, an action by man which must be done every day for grace to save us. reliance is only part of faith - reliance is still dead if it has no works
it is God alone who saves us, i agree wholeheartedly, but not independently of us and our walk here.
again, i see it as a request for extra grace if we expect God to save us without submission to Him and what He has asked us to do.
i think that we might need to clarify "works" better somewhere in this discussion. repentance, confession, baptism aren't "works" the way that some see that word. i'm sure we'll get to it.
gotta run, thanks for the wonderful conversation!
To Chrischar:
I am the "Todd guy" - apparantly, you didn't read my article very carefully - beginning with the first pages.
From the outset, I noted my argument doesn't stand or fall on refuting every error in the other article. Therefore, I began by aruguing my proposition in the affirmative as originally planned.
Afterward, I dealt with some of errors in the other article for the benefit of those who may have read it. Dealing with all the errors contained therein would have taken too long, and I was already going to be several weeks behind my opponent. Those that were noted were more than sufficient to show the weakness of the other article.
For example, when I teach about the false doctrine of pre-millennialism, I only deal with the 6 (or so) main points that are fairly common to most P-M theories. This is sufficient to refute the doctrine without chasing every little nuance of the many slightly differing theories. Same goes for Calvinism - one only need show the weakness of each of the TULIP petals to refute the whole thing in its entirety.
Second - regarding what you call old church of Christ stuff - where did I ever appeal to any church for what I wrote? Those who hold the same position as I are continually accused of bias, yet your bias is evident from your post. Why don't you refute the language arguments I used instead of inciting bias with your snide, trite little comments?
Yes, yes, I know - I'm unloving, unkind, un(insert your own adjective here), for pointing this out and challenging you to answer my arguments. I have participated on this board before, but I left when I found out how intolerant all these tolerant, open-minded are.
Even posting these remarks is probably a mistake, but I tire of people who will not deal with the issue, but would rather cast disparagements on those who do not agree with their position.
TC
I must have missed something. Where is this article by Todd? I would like to read it.
Duckman
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Toddrow wrote:
Any honest, open-minded individual who reads the book of Acts can reach no other conclusion than the necessity of baptism to receive salvation and remission of sins.[/quote]
So, anyone that doesn't see it the way that you see it is dishonest and close-minded?... Todd, this is the exact type of statement which causes so much division and contention within the body of Christ... I also noticed several such statements in your response article.
Considering that the current, majority view in the CoC regarding baptism has, as you have alluded to in your article, only been held for (approximately) the past 200 years, am I to understand that dishonesty and close-mindedness reigned until the 19th century?... Where was the church during all of that time?...
I don't have a lot of time right now to discuss this, but, in all due respect Todd, you should really think long and hard regarding such generalizing, accusatory statements before writing them. I say this in love.
newtome
Please, please, please read my posts more carefully. We are called to do good deeds!!! Read Eph 2:10. I've never, ever said that we aren't called to do deeds. We disagree on the purpose of those deeds.
Lastly, newtome, I say this with respect. Your arguments are born out of the perspective of certain churches of Christ that espouse a kind of works theology, for lack of a better phrase. Those teachings are indeed what I am arguing against because I believe they are spiritually dangerous. I have previously explained why. I have seen sad and terrible damage to people as a result of embracing such a theology - especially if they are so bold as to disagree. I've seen sectarian attitudes, judgmentalism, legalism, shunning, argument, division, etc, etc, etc. I believe it is all born out of this misplaced and misunderstood meaning of God's plan of salvation by His grace through faith. I say this very, very respectfully.
My wife's poor mother, who is on her death bed, who worshipped in a very conservative (for lack of a better description) church of Christ and who embraced the same theology as yours (the five essential steps to salvation) said recently that she is not sure of her salvation. She doesn't know if she has been "good enough". How terribly sad that she has missed the promise of assurance. How sad, that after "doing" all the right things, she doesn't really know Christ in such an intimate way that brings assurance without any doubt. Well, the truth is she hasn't been "good enough" - neither have I nor you nor Paul nor Peter nor anyone who has ever lived EXCEPT for the Lord Jesus Christ. The good news is God calls us to trust Him for our righteousness - that's it, that's all. Then experience the joy that Christ wants us to experience through our obedience - His joy!! And experience living in the awesome power of the Holy Spirit as He prepares us for the work the Father planned in advance for us to do.
No, newtome, we're not puppets. That is a tired, old argument of those who wish to have some merit accorded them in their "obedience". I mean no disrespect.
Finally as to grace - all experience God's grace by the fact that they live and breathe and experience His creation. We know that is what is called common grace. Saving grace is imparted to them that, through faith, trust completely in the Lord Jesus Christ for their righteousness - not of anything of themselves. By definition, Christians are saved by God's grace, live by His grace and will be glorified by His grace. I humbly suggest that you prayerfully consider a deep study of God's grace.
Steve
Oh Todd,
One more suggestion. Please get off the denominational thing.
Forgive me, but I can't understand how one in the churches of Christ denomination can look at another denomination and use the phrase, "denominational error", "denominational false teaching" or as you put it being mislead and misguided "by denominational teaching". What do you think you're reflecting in your writing?
You may say your non-denominational - but that simply is not true. Autonomous, yes; non-denominational, no. The Lord's church is comprised of ALL believers no matter where they might worship, Todd. Agree?
Todd, I really do worship in a non-denominational church. I mean, this fellowship began with four couples meeting in a home just over 20 years ago. We now have in excess of three thousand in attendance weekly, missionaries in Indonesia and Khyrgistan (sp?), three church plantings, etc. I'm not saying that to boast in ourselves but in our God and to point out that we who believe and happen to worship at Grace Fellowship Church are members of the Lord's church.
The denominational accusations are kind of funny, Todd from one outside your denomination as well as the others you lump into one word, denomination. Todd, you just can't set yourself apart and be holy - only God has that power, by His grace through faith in His Son.
By the way, I would agree there are many who have made a mockery of God's Truth and grace. And I ask His forgiveness when, in my sin, I've done the same.
Take care.
Steve
I just want to point out that nowhere in the bible do I remember seeing, "Age of Accountability."
Topic: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
Answer: God knows.
Is baptism necessary for salvation?
Answer: It was for mine.
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Some, like newtome, hold that righteousness is found in a person's obedience. [/quote]
my bible told me so:
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Romans 6:16
Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
[/quote]
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]And that we MUST be obedient in order to be saved. What a heavy burden and hard yoke!! [/quote]
if you are not obedient, what are you? disobedient.
there is nothing heavy about obedience to love of Christ unless one feels unwilling to obey.
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]. Contrasting that, I also find the person, realizing his spiritual bankruptcy and absolute need for redemption and rescue - crying out at that moment, calling upon God, asking for forgiveness by declaring his acknowledgement of his sin and his complete faith/trust in Jesus being saved at that exact moment. [/quote]
you've said before that nothing one does is a contingency for salvation. what of this "calling upon God, asking for forgiveness, declaring" etc.etc.? if one did not do these things would he/she be saved?
see, no matter what you put in there, the human's actions and choices are absolutely necessary for salvation.
if you cut baptism out, you might as well remove the need to confess that Jesus is the Christ. really, why do it? it has no bearing on your salvation, right?
and why even repent? that requires performance on your part, and by your rational - a human's performance has no effect on his salvation.
however, grace is not given independently of human choices. grace is not salvation for all of mankind. it is the chance of salvation for all of mankind. for all men are not going to be saved. there must be something setting the saved and the unsaved apart. and that's your actions. faith is an action. baptism is an action. confessing Jesus as Christ is an action. salvation is contingent upon your actions for it sets you apart from the unsaved.
thanks for your spirit segell and for your conversation! :thumbup:
newtome -
Please take the opportunity to read the books I suggested. It might help clarify grace for you.
First of all, by definition, grace is unmerited favor - not a "free gift". The free gift is eternal life that God grants to unmerited sinners such as you and me BY His grace through faith.
I'm afraid that your study begins quite a circuitous route to get to your conclusions. It seems your argument is based on finding a pathway that would support what you believe with regard to the purposes of baptism and what a person MUST do in order to be saved.
God's purpose and plan for salvation was accomplished 2000 years ago in the life, death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. We receive the gift of eternal life by trusting, through faith, in all that Jesus accomplished. Period. A "sinner's prayer" or a "baptism" does not in any way save. God, by His grace, saves us through faith, newtome. Our obedience doesn't save us. The perfect obedience that saves was accomplished 2000 years ago. We must trust that. Faith is not just a way of life it is the purpose of living - it's one's foundation and reason for living. Faith leads to doing good works - but from what motivation? To be saved or to maintain salvation? No, no, no! Works we perform as Christians should be from the motivation of love and reverence for God because of His awesome and undefinably wondrous love He has for us and as demonstrated through the death of Jesus. Love and reverence for God should be the motivations for our obedience. Jesus said something along the lines of ...if you love Me you will obey me if you don't love me you won't obey me. John 14:23.
And, newtome, the key to understanding the purpose of obedience is found in, among many other verses, Eph. 2:10. newtome, our Lord expects and demands our obedience out of LOVE for Him. Why? So that our joy may be complete by having HIS joy in us, to the glory of the Father. John 15:9-11.
newtome - the examples you raise of things that MUST be done to be saved are things that are done because WE ARE saved. And where do all of these actions come from? A new heart, changed by the power of the Holy Spirit, opening our hearts to God's truth as found in Jesus Christ. Anyone not willing to repent, anyone not willing to confess, anyone not willing to submit to Christ's lordship would seem to be one who is not in Christ. Those musts that you point to are, in my view Scriptural barometers of our faith or lack thereof.
I can't imagine anyone whose heart has been changed and whose life has been redeemed by the grace and power of Almighty God NOT responding by repenting, confessing, being baptized and submitting in obedience to Christ. Those are the results of being saved!!
You said that we can receive God's grace by our belief and actions. newtome, with respect, that is false. If we have actions in order to receive His grace, then it is no grace at all. (Romans 11:6 - please read). I'm not saying we aren't called to action!! God forbid! We are definitely called to action. The question is, for what purpose.
I appreciate your time and effort. We view Scripture from much different perspectives, newtome. Seems you look at Scripture from a standpoint of knowing what you must do to earn or contribute to salvation. I don't see the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ - the core of which is God's grace - having anything to do with what we must do, rather it's all about what Jesus Christ did.
Lastly, what you ascribe is not different from any other religion in the world and even some that would fall under the umbrella of Christendom. Every other religion requires and demands certain behavior in order to merit a deity's favor. That's not the plan of Almighty God, maker of heaven and earth. His plan required that He do it all. Him and Him alone. To His glory for ever and ever. And how, then, are we saved? By His grace (and doing) through our faith (complete and trustful reliance).
Thanks, again. And God bless you.
Steve
Hey Chris,
Well, if you look at Todd's first page it says he is from Alabama. At some legalistic church there.
Has he even read the article he is responding to? ???
Tyler
I am here to discuss (debate) this GraceCentered article on baptism. I printed it out (35 pages) and am reading it a little at a time. I'm sorry I am unable to check into this forum often because I have 4 very active lists to keep up..with help, of course.
The Introduction had a problem right off the bat: AN ABIBLICAL QUESTION. Whomever wrote this "book" said that the scriptures do not mention that an unbaptised believer would be lost..therfore it is an abiblical question. Of course, I deny that. Lets compare that with the Lord's supper. Nothing is said in the scriptures about having 7up and cornbread in the Lord's supper. So according to the author's reasoning that is an abiblical question.
However, scripture DOES tell us what to have in the Lord's supper. That then says 7up and cornbread is not not acceptable to our Lord. Now compare that with the unbaptized believer. Scripture tells us WHAT we must do to be saved. WHAT puts us into Christ where all spiritual blessings are....including salvation. So that does away with the idea that the scriptures do not say anything about an unbaptized believer being lost.
Well, I am only beginning the reading of the article and will add my thoughts as I continue. Feel free to agree, disagree, or just pass over.
Nelta
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[!--EDIT|tennman|Feb. 07 2003,2:39--]
It's on the same page as the other. Just go to the home page of gcm........to that picture of the trees and the water.....click there.
TyLER
newtome
We've discussed our respective perspectives at length. Not sure anything new can be added. I'm afraid that I don't see
Scripture supporting your conclusions that God tenders different graces in response to our different actions. Actually, I believe according to Scripture, His grace is given in spite of our doing - not because of it. Anyway, I've written on this already and appreciate your polite exchange.
I just believe that it is error to think that God's grace is dependent upon a series of actions by man. It's dependent upon all the doing of the Lord Jesus Christ. We, just have to trust in Him for God's grace. newtome, there is a focus problem - placing much too much focus on the person and not on the Lord Jesus Christ.
Take a look at your last post: "in a like manner I can do a deed..." No, newtome, the Truth of the matter is you can't. I hope that you will prayerfully consider this.
Thanks for your expressions.
Steve
Segell, that is truly sad about your wife's mother. I have said a prayer for her that the Lord will place on her heart the assurance and confidence He wants her to possess. I hope that you have read to her those scriptures that show her that Jesus' righteousness is counted as her righteousness ... that no one can take her, one of His precious sheep, from His everlasting arms ... that His blood continues to cleanse her of all sin ... that His Spirit is given to her as a guarantee of His promise.
Todd
A couple of quick points:
1. Thanks for the clarification.
2. Paul tells us we are sinners by nature. Please read Romans 8, verses 1 through 11. Galatians 5: 16 and 17. Paul writes that we are all sinners and the result of sin is death. By our very nature we are sinful. By God's grace through faith we are imputed with Christ's righteousness and enabled to live by the Spirit that dwells within us. As a side note, Todd, if we can't see our sin for what it is, we will never be able to see Christ Jesus and all who He is.
3. When Jesus is talking of a child or children, He is talking about their eagerness to listen and obey and believe. It is their humility that Christ wants us to have. Matt 18:4; Psalms 51:17. It doesn't mean they are without sin. Psalm 51:5. Sin entered into the world by one man and sin is defeated by one Man. So says Scripture, Romans 5:12 - 17.
4. I don't think I contradict myself. When speaking of salvation, and I again stress SALVATION (you know, some will misstate my position on our [Christians'] call to obedience) our works/obedience is NOT taken into account our trust in JESUS' righteousness and obedience is.
I assume you grer up being taught a certain perspective and theology. I know I am suggesting a complete paradigm shift in that thinking. Or it might appear that I am. But really what I am urging all to do is shift the focus from us and onto the Lord Jesus Christ.
I prayerfully ask that you consider a study centered on God's sovereignty, our sin and God's plan of salvation - the core of which is grace. Instead of scouring Scripture with a view of finding all manner of examples of man's obedience (and there a many of them), scour Scripture with a view of finding out what God does in the lives of those He chooses.
I believe you will begin to see less of you and more of Christ and the examples of obedience in Scripture will take on new meaning and purpose. Anyway, I submit this for your consideration but ask that you first take all of this to Christ in prayer.
Thanks, Todd
Steve
Nelta and anyone else:
For purposes of this discussion, how are we defining "unbaptized"?
Thanks.
Steve
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Nelta @ Jan. 29 2003,07:32)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Nothing is said in the scriptures about having 7up and cornbread in the Lord's supper. So according to the author's reasoning that is an abiblical question.[/quote]
No you are mixing your logic here.
Scripture tells us a lot of things that baptism does but it never says that it is the mystical moment of reconcilliation with God.
As to the Lord's Supper all we know about 7-up is that it hadn't been invented yet and the folks from Europe, Asia and Africa who transversed the Middle East had yet to make it to the Americas to discover corn (while we are at it they hadn't found potatoes yet either).
Passages dealing with the Lord's Supper only tell us of the use of what they did have.
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Nelta wrote:
Upon obedience to the command to be baptized Christ adds to His body (see Acts 2)....[/quote]
Greetings.
Just for the sake of discussion, as far as addition to the body is concerned... I would like to offer the following:
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]"Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand." (Acts 4:4, KJV)[/quote]
What was the message that they heard?... What did they believe?... How were they added to the body?
The context of this passage shows Peter preaching again to the Jews. This is the message that they heard and believed. In Acts 3:19, Peter tells them, "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing come from the presence of the Lord...".
No mention at all of baptism here...
They believed his message.
They were added to the body.
In conclusion, it seems that there is just as much evidence in Acts 3 and 4 for addition by belief and repentance, as there is in Acts 2 for addition by belief, repentance, and baptism...
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (JerryBrooke @ Jan. 30 2003,11:21)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I just want to point out that nowhere in the bible do I remember seeing, "Age of Accountability."[/quote]
Hello Jerry,
So might you be saying that "the age of accountability" is simply abiblical as the author of the article is saying about "The unbaptized believer is lost" is abiblical? Actually, what you said fits his reasoning perfectly.
However, the scriptures do speak of "the age of accountability" in that there is an age when someone IS accountable. First he must be at an age that he can believe (have faith) without going through his parents' faith. Then he must know that he sins AND he must be willing to not only acknowledge that he sinned but be able to repent (turn away from) those sins and THEN he must be immersed in water that he might accept the grace offered at the cross. He must immulate the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord.
So there is indeed an "age of accountability" and that is not abiblical.
Nelta
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newtome
Thanks for the response. And yes, you do bring up some core theological differences. I don't have the time right now to respond to all, but I will soon.
Basically - our difference is found in where we center our salvation. Yours, seems to me, is centered on the individual and mine on God. If we could save ourselves, even in part, it would make our Lord's death meaningless and make mockery of His grace. The Bible says we boast in nothing less than Jesus Christ, His death, His righteousness. Where do we receive the power or ability to even believe? Where does that come from? Not ourselves. God in His mercy and grace works His will in our lives - His will which was in place before time began. Ephesians 2:10. We were at war with God, the Bible says. Who changed our hearts? I know it wasn't me. I know that had I been left to my own desires, God would not have a place in my life. So who changed me? The Sovereign God Almighty through the power of His Holy Spirit opened my eyes to see my sin and desperate need and opened my heart to respond. I was broken and He redeemed and rescued me.
God seals me with His Spirit by His grace through faith in His Son. And yes, I believe that I am in Him and He is in me. Eternity has begun in my life. That hope is real. That assurance mine. I am His eternally by His grace and mercy through faith in Christ Jesus.
newtome, we certainly are called to do good works. We are called into His service not because He needs us, but because we desperately need Him. Those works are not done in order to be saved or to continue to remain saved. Those works are accomplished because we love our Lord and that love is demonstrated by obedience. If one is obedient in order to be saved or to continue being saved, that person is making a mockery of God's grace demonstrated in the ultimate perfect sacrifice of His Son, Jesus. Please try and see the distinction I am attempting to make. What I have written about and what we are discussing is very, very different to many in the cofC. I realize that. But many in the cofC are seeing God's Truth in a different light and resting completely in His grace and mercy. newtome, only Jesus Christ was obedient and it's His obedience we trust, never ours. We fall short, constantly! The Bible tells us this.
Yes, we do need to trust in/have faith in/believe in our Lord and Savior. My question to you is: where did we obtain the ability to do so?
Unfortunately I have to run. Thank you for your response. Look forward to more conversation with you.
Take care.
Steve
Can I take God completely for granted and still be justified?
example. I drive up to a bridge. Before crossing I stop the car, get out, and look at the bridge. I can see that the timbers are sound, the joints are firm, the planks are all there, the pilings a buried: it's all good. So I hop in and start driving on it. Thing is, this is a 100 mile-long bridge. At first, I'm singing praises to the wonderful bridge and the amazing efforts of its builders. However, about 10 miles along, my mind is a million miles away. I have so much faith and trust in that bridge that I simply don't think about it.
At one point in my life, I put my complete trust in God to save me through Jesus. I reaffirm that faith every single day. Now if, someday, I simply stop thinking about it, will the bridge ever collapse? Or is the integrity of the bridge somehow dependent on my appreciation of it?
Steve,
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]It wasn't until I met my wife that I was introduced to the denomination of churches of Christ. At least to a very legalistic, sectarian and exclusive grouping of CofC churches.
For the last four years I've had the opportunity to study, debate, love and share with many in the CofC. I was thrilled to meet and correspond with many who actually are Christ and grace centered and share the view I've been trying to communicate with regard to God's grace and baptism - Ed Fudge, Max Lucado, Dallas Burdette to name but three. (I had thought ALL the CofC were like those churches I had experience with - about 5 different ones in various places in the country). In order to better communicate with my then girlfriend (now my wife) I needed to understand her point of view and heritage much more clearly.
I found it curious that the churches spawned out of the RM - a movement honestly and sincerely devoted to unity - were so sharply divided and with such animosity (in some places). [/quote]
While I don't have much time to make a comment (leave for worship in 10 min), just wanted to say thanks for this discussion and the info you have given. We have alot in common in our background and experience with the CoC! I wish I had had some of the resources available that you have been able to draw on when my wife and I met. Would have made things easier, to say the least. But I wouldn't trade for the experience I have had in the CoC since 1972 and the growth in me and my family because of those experiences.
newtome:
Hi and thanks for your comments. Our theologies do differ and I appreciate the opportunity to explore those differences. I have not referred to Scripture very often in my recent writings and I think it is certainly time to do so. Will you bear with me as I offer the following for your consideration?
God is totally sovereign (Job 37:23), the Creator of all things (Genesis 1) and that author of everything that is good. Our Sovereign God owes us nothing (Job 41:11). He is not in the least obligated to us in any way (Romans 9:20and 21). Yet, God loves us beyond imagination (John 3:16; 1 John 4: 10; 1 John 3:1). So much so that perfect love was demonstrated in Christ's death (Romans 5:6-8). We are sinners deserving death (Romans 6:23). And how is this sin problem dealt with? By trusting in all that Jesus accomplished in His perfect living, dying and rising. We are saved by God's grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-10) - not by faith or obedience in order to merit God's grace. That would allow a selfish boast, would it not? But what about this grace?
I think it's important to focus on our spiritual condition apart from Jesus Christ - so that we can start to have an understanding of God's grace. Please read Isaiah 53:6; Romans 3:10 - 20 for an idea of our sin and then read what our almighty and sovereign God thinks of our sin by reading Romans 1:18; even our righteous works and sin as revealed in Isaiah 64: 6 and 7. We were in a dreadful, desperate place before being saved, weren't we? There can be nothing, even in the slightest, coming from a person like me - a sinner, that merits righteousness apart from Christ Jesus. In fact apart from Christ we would still be in that place. (Remember, newtome, my comments have always been directed toward salvation - not the responsibilities we, as Christians, are commanded to meet and privileged to perform.) Certainly we are to obey - the question is: what is our motivation to obey? Our motivation should be out of our love and reverence for God. Right? Not as a means from which we receive His mercy and grace. God loves me in spite of my sin and in spite of any work and/or obedience on my part. Grace means that God's love is not contingent upon my performance, it's in spite of it!! He asks that I trust Him and Him alone.
My point with regard to obedience is if we bind one to obeying in order to receive God's grace or keep His grace, then we are making that a burden and that obedience will be for naught. Ephesians chapter 2 spells it out very clearly what leads to salvation, especially in verses 8 through 10: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." (And yes, I do believe that God predestines our lives, newtome, because the bible says so. Romans 8:28 -30.)
Lastly, for now :D, I have never said that "nothing one does is a contingency for salvation". We must have a saving faith/belief/trust in all that Jesus accomplished in His life, death and resurrection. That is how our Lord's free gift is received - by His grace through faith. Out of that faith from in our heart we gladly confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father. Romans 10:10.
Newtome, when we are pricked to the very core of our hearts of the reality of our spiritual bankruptcy, when we in desperation awake to our deadly condition and need to be rescued, and when we come to realize that God loves us so much that He died for you and me - we come to faith and we are, BY GOD'S GRACE, saved. (Just want to emphasize - not shout :) ). And, because of this our hearts are changed by the power of the Holy Spirit. That change leads to repentance, confession that Jesus Christ is Lord, obedience that results in our submission to baptism and a life of faithfulness by the transforming grace of God through the sanctifying power of His Holy Spirit. You see, I think those things that many would say must be done in order to be saved - are actually responses to being saved. Furthermore, those things mentioned are in a way barometers to measure where our hearts really are (this is my view). Am I repenting, confessing, being baptized and remaining faithful in order to receive God's mercy and grace or am I repenting, confessing, being baptized and remaining faithful because I have been saved by God's grace through faith. Newtome, I choose the latter.
Why? Because it makes so much sense. But more importantly, it keeps as the core of the Gospel message the awesome grace of God and not a Gospel where the core is contingent upon my performance. The performance that saves is Christ Jesus'. The obedience that merits salvation is Christ Jesus'. The blood that washes me clean is Christ Jesus'. The sacrifice that paid my debt is Christ Jesus'. And when it comes finally down to it Jesus says "Trust me". And by God's power in my life, I choose to do just that. To the glory of the Father for ever and ever. Amen?
Well, I just read this over and I apologize for some of the rambling and perhaps disjointed thoughts. I hope I haven't been confusing.
Remember that Peter, the one who denied Christ three times and the one who deeply understood God's grace and forgiveness exhorts us to "grow in the grace and knowledge" of the Lord Jesus Christ. Both the grace and knowledge are things we will continue to learn more about and to have revealed to us deeper and deeper meanings as God determines our capability to comprehend. God's grace is more than just a word. It is very awesome to comprehend. I can't get my arms around it all - but I'm enjoying His teaching very much.
Let me suggest two books. The first one, written by a man I deeply respect and who's history is with the churches of Christ, is entitled "The Great Rescue" by Edward Fudge (Mr. Fudge, please forgive me for referring to you as Ed in a previous posting - I know you do prefer Edward :doh: ) and the other is "Transforming Grace - Living Confidently in God's Unfailing Love" by Jerry Bridges.
Well, thanks for reading. I think perhaps this will be my last long winded posting on this topic (I don't want to beat a dead horse) but I would be happy to respond to any questions as succinctly as possible.
Grace and peace to you, newtome.
Steve
Hebrews 5:8-10
"Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek".
I John 5:3
"This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome"
If we must obey, are we not a participant? If we are an active participant, are we not "working"?
The argument surrounding baptism reminds me of the incident in John 5 - (this is verse 39)
"You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life".
Are we not too focused on straining through scripture to determine the exact point of salvation when we should be out in the world preaching a gospel that results in obedience?
Are we to obey the Lord to receive salvation?? Yes
How?? Repent AND be baptized (many forget the repent part)
I John 5:13
"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life".
My heart aches for those that claim to be in Christ, yet are not assured of their salvation. Having been raised in the CoC, I have personally witnessed (and felt) a large number of people that have obeyed the gospel call, regularly attend services, love the Lord, and yet do not know if they are "saved." It is horrible state to be in. Where is the joy? Where is the hope? How can we be effective to a lost world if we believe that WE are still "lost"?
We, Christians, must rise to our calling as the elect of God (please do not read in Calvinism, I am using Biblical terms here), and be proud of only our salvation through Jesus Christ, and show the world the joy and peace we have in that blessed assurance.
- Larry.
jarschqua
Well, it seems that you're trying to make a point by comparing matters that are not comparable. Scripture is quite clear that we are saved, we have salvation by God's grace, not of works or anything we might do to get it, but by grace through faith so THAT we will be able to perform those good works He planned in advance (before time) for us to do to the glory of the Father. Ephesians 2:8-10.
Now the Jericho example would work and be consistent with Ephesians 2:8-10 if we say that by God's grace He delivered Jericho to Joshua. Now, by trusting God, loving Him for His great mercy - Joshua obeys God. Joshua doesn't obey in order to take Jericho - he obeys because Jericho was already given by God's grace and Joshua has faith in what God proclaimed. That's what gave Joshua Jericho - his faith in God. It's pretty simple. And notice how it constantly keeps the focus upon God and our desperate need for him and off of us who labor in vain in a desperate attempt to gain God's favor.
Steve
i for one appreicate where you're coming from as per "inciting bias via snide and trite little comments" here sometimes todd; hard to discuss a topic when other posters attack your person, not the issue being explored.
i must say, though there is still a great deal of reasonable debate that can be found here for all sides of a topic. and i think most posts (from everyone) are pretty caring, or least not intentionally offensive.
:)
though i agree, tennman - your comment was far out of line
Thanks Todd... That seems to have worked.
I will read through it this weekend... If the Lord wills.
Imagine being God.
Imagine making a creature and telling him how to behave properly and then watching him deliberately disobey you at his own peril. Watch him destroy the other things you made for him to enjoy. Watch him corrupt other creatures.
Imagine sending you son to die just to pay for the things that your creatures do. Watch your son die for people who hate him and reject his sacrifice altogether while continuing to do wrong and spoiling your creation.
Now imagine them changing. Watch their hearts as the love you have shown slowly starts to sink into their stupid skulls. Watch them gradually soften and accept what you have done for them. Watch that moment of horror when they first realize what they've been doing. Watch that moment of wonder when they finally realize that Jesus paid for their sins. Watch them turn their lives to you and determine to do as you've told. See them profess their faith in your son's sacrifice; see them re-enact that sacrifice in their own lives in baptism; see them living year after year in your honor.
Now, was there one single moment when you instantly changed your attitude toward them from condemnation to graciousness? Why do we make God's grace seem like an instantaneous and automatic response on His part to our baptism? God is a person. When we do wrong, he remembers for a long time. When we walk in his ways, he puts those sins away from us. He knows us and loves us. He's not a teller machine that dispenses grace to those who know the code.
here's a question
if someone is given grace are they saved? :angel:
or can you be given grace and still not be saved? ???
re. newtome and Segell ... I don't know about anyone else, but personally I read "grace" in both your prespectives. Maybe different ways of expressing, but God's grace is there when it's all boiled down to "the main thing." I would think you both would agree that God's grace is offered to all, though not all will receive it. Yes?
All we can do with grace is respond to it. Accept and obey, trust and follow; or reject and continue in disobedience and following our own selfish will. If responding to grace counts as a work, then count me among the guilty.
There is not one breath that I draw in this life but is granted me by my Creator. Even so, I have to breathe. I can't hold my breath until I turn blue, saying to myself that since every breath is given to me by God I shouldn't attempt to breathe myself. God made me and gave me a body which requires breathing on a regular basis in order to live. Doing what He designed me to do doesn't take away the fact that life and breath are granted by Him.
See what I'm saying? Doing - yes, dare I say it, *doing* - what my Heavenly Father tells me to do, not something I make up off the top of my head - ("God, I'm gonna jump rope 1000 times 'n then stand on my head for 10 minutes 'n quote a buncha scriptures while doing this. When I'm done, I expect you to pardon my sins and save me.") - can never take away from His grace. Because He cannot take away from His grace. So whatever He does or says or commands of those who seek and follow Him is part of His grace. How can God be God and grace not be included in every aspect of His plan for our redemption?
Charlie, excellent post, thanks!
all i need say is that the Bible doesn't say be baptized because i'm already saved.
that's sufficient.
grace to you and your mother :pray:
Quick note to Steve and nevertheless,
The first part of what I posted was attributed to you, but actually typed by Spurly - my mistake. Spurly, see my answer to you in my reply to Steve.
To nevertheless - you wrote:
[Why is it so important for us to pinpoint a moment in time when we move from unsaved to saved?
[Which is the better attitude - to be baptized so we won't get zapped (fire insurance) or to be baptized because God asked us to (obedience motivated by love)? Telling someone that they aren't saved until they are baptized only puts the fear of hell in them. Telling them that God loves them - the whole story - leads them to naturally ask, "What does God want me to do?"]
I generally agree with your post and the direction you are going, but let me make this point:
Either attitude (fear or love) is acceptable according to the scripture. Which attitude do you think prompted the Jews at Pentecost? I believe fear since Peter had just indicted them of the murder of the now risen Son of God. Paul said God commands all men everywhere to repent in view of the judgment (Acts 17:30-31) - I believe there is also a "fear factor" involved here.
It is vitally important to know at what point a person is saved. God has made it clear, and if people cannot be shown conclusively from the Scripture that they are lost, then the Great Commission and its Gospel lose their power.
When people in the book of Acts asked what to do to be saved, they were all brought to a specific point at which they knew they were saved and no longer lost.
Just a thought or two.
Todd
you're right kanham, it ought to look like this when i say it:
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]1 Peter 3:21
...baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ...,
[/quote]
Hi Steve,
I suppose "unbaptized" would mean someone who has not been baptized.:-) But actually the thought in the article and my thought were talking about water baptism.
Nelta
Nelta Brock
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[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (segell @ Jan. 30 2003,09:09)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Nelta
Thanks for the response. In Christendom, there are many, many forms of baptism. Covenant infant baptism, sprinkling, pouring, etc, etc. I wanted to know if your premise is based on total immersion and for the remission of sins as a definition of baptism.
Thanks.
Steve[/quote]
Hi Steve,
In case I didn't make my point clear (which often happens with me) let me say that I am talking about immersion for those who are old enough to believe and to know they have sinned and that they MUST repent of those sins if they are wanting to be "in Christ." Actually, the age of accountability fits in here.
Nelta
Nelta Brock
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Nelta
By that definition an "unbaptized" believer could be a person baptized as an infant, coming to Christ by faith many years later, relying on the covenential aspect of the infant baptism as being obedient to Christ's command to be baptized and you would suggest that person would not be saved? Then that would make the baptism by your definition a work - something done in anticipation of and for the purpose of attaining or receiving God's favor.
I will submit to you that that "unbaptized" believer mentioned above is saved by God's grace through faith. Why would I say this? By what Scripture reveals as God's character, His Sovereignty, His grace and our very, very real sin. I am hoping to write at length on this in the near future for everyone's consideration. (Now that I have said it, I will try my best to carry through).
Sadly, instead of all of Christ's body uniting under and by His authority, His obedience, His sacrifice and His love - we divide over issues of our definitions of our faithfulness. Oh, how sad that is. There is only One who is faithful, only One who is obedient and only One who pays the price. Why, oh why do we insist that persons do certain things certain ways on certain days at certain times in order to be considered worthy of fellowship??? Don't we get it? We have to be righteous in order to have fellowship with God, don't we? Where and how do we obtain that righteousness? By trusting completely in Jesus' righteousness. We can bring nothing. That perfect righteousness is granted by God's grace through faith. Period. Period. Period.
My heart just breaks to hear of the division and rejection of brothers and sisters in Christ because they may hold something more dearly than another or practice their faith a bit differently than another. My wife, after 20 years of holding onto certain "truths" taught by legalistic persons in the churches of Christ (denomination) is learning new things regarding what being free in Christ really means. Of course that caused her to be marked and disfellowshipped. So sad, so sad. And friends, you know what? She would tell you today that she has never felt so alive in Christ. She has greater peace because there no longer is a burden to carry.
You see, GRACE is the core of the Gospel message. We aren't just grace centered - we, who are His are filled with His grace, continually being transformed by His grace. You see, some might believe that when they were saved, or baptized, that they received God's grace and then must shoulder the burden of continued faithfulness. Guys, God's grace is continual - it doesn't stop. Our faith is a result of His grace. Praise God. You see, our sin (that we commit even while, as Christians, we are being sanctified by God through His grace) makes us ill-deserving of eternity with God or of having a home in Heaven. Our sin makes us deserving of hell. And it is only by faith and trust in Christ Jesus and by His grace that we find ourselves in glorious hope and life everlasting!! Oh, how I love Him for this preciously and terribly costly gift.
Blessings.
Steve
Is baptism necessary for salvation?
Answer: It was for mine.
Janine
Curious about your post. May I ask how and why you said that? I ask with great respect.
Steve
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]You see, God, by His character, wouldn't make His blesssing of salvation contingent upon a method, ritual or performance by man. That would be absolutely contrary to His plan of salvation by His grace through faith.[/quote]
salvation by grace through faith. what is faith? belief in things unseen. belief is a choice. faith is a choice. a choice is a performance by man.[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]It is only in trusting in the righteousness and perfect obedience of Jesus Christ that we are found blemish free - white as snow. [/quote]
trust is a choice. a choice is a performance by man. goaded on by God yes, but still contingent on the performance of choice.
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]It is when God opens our hearts, reveals His truth that we come to Him by faith. [/quote]
"we come to Him." coming to Him is a performance by man. if you do not come to Him there is no salvation. your salvation is contingent upon coming to Him. a performance. a choice made solely by the human. nudged that direction by God through His Word or other Christians, but still a performance by that individual, a choice to pick up a cross of submission and follow Jesus.[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]That the basis of our fellowship would be in their declared belief, faith and trust in our Lord and Savior. [/quote]
declaring faith is a choice. a performance of man. a choice. an action.
every part of salvation hinges upon man's choices. it is freely available to all who come to Him. coming is an action, a performance by man.
it seems that the "wholly by grace" principle is flawed. it does require perfomance on man's part.
if i'm going to act in a play i must choose to do so. then i must voice that conviction, choosing to give up my former "real" life for the duration of the play. then i must act upon my conviction and choice and play the part.
if i'm going to be saved i must choose to do so. God will not save me, a being accountable for my sins, if i don't want to be saved. then i must voice my conviction, choosing to give up my former "fleshly" life for the duration of my existence. then i must act upon my conviction and choice and be baptised into Him and His church.
before i acted in the play, i was not an actor.
before i was baptised, i was not added to the church. i intended to be added, but hadn't been.
as far as the "what if i die on the way to the play/baptistry", God decides when i will go and knows my destination at all times, it His choice. however, it is inappropriate to build a doctrine based on what MIGHT be an exception.
to teach the fullness of truth we must teach that choice is required on the part of a human to be saved. that will always be performance. not that the performance in itself saves us, no the power is in God alone, and it is God's choice and right and power to mandate certain choices for us, certain performances for those who want to be His. and He did.
what you do with God's path, is up to you. i for one shall walk all of it, leaning upon His promises, His divine institutions, and the grace that is given to me as a direct result of my performance unto Him.
assurance by grace alone rings loudly of the western culture and their "i'm a good person, i believe in God, so i believe i'll go to heaven" rational. unfortunately believing in God (belief in things unseen is faith) does not make you a Christian. it makes you someone who believes in God. not the same thing.
that belief is a choice, and it's the right choice, but it's not enough as far as God's blessed Word says.[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]You see, God, by His character, wouldn't make His blesssing of salvation contingent upon a method, ritual or performance by man. That would be absolutely contrary to His plan of salvation by His grace through faith.[/quote]
whether its "declared belief", "trust", "coming", baptism or whatever you like, humans must make the right choices to be Christians. God by His character DID make salvation contingent upon those choices.
p.s. otherwise, how could one ever fall away? that would require performance on that human's part. your rational says that one's performances cannot negate their salvation either for it would be contrary to God's character or "His plan of salvation by His grace through faith".
a beautiful idea, but simply not wholly representative of God and His Word.
segell, i'd also love to read your study on God's grace and sovereignty, sounds very interesting :D
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Who changed our hearts? I know it wasn't me. I know that had I been left to my own desires, God would not have a place in my life. So who changed me? The Sovereign God Almighty through the power of His Holy Spirit opened my eyes to see my sin and desperate need and opened my heart to respond. I was broken and He redeemed and rescued me.
[/quote]
this is a wonderful statement which is beautiful and rings true of a heart devoted to God.
i do not see that we can remove the human element from this rescuing, though.
God wills that none should perish. if God is the one who changes our hearts (our selves) into something else, and not that human, then why aren't all saved? why hasn't God changed the heart of everyone?
God changes your "self" after you choose Him. He leads us to the oppurtunity to choose Him, but the change he makes in us must be contingent on us. otherwise we are nothing but puppets with no free will, no choice. the love is something we are forced to have for God, not a choice.
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]If one is obedient in order to be saved or to continue being saved, that person is making a mockery of God's grace demonstrated in the ultimate perfect sacrifice of His Son, Jesus. [/quote]
this would certainly be true if God's grace was something He gave out indiscriminately, irregardless of who we are or what we choose to believe. the mockery is if we refuse to be in obedience to will of God from which grace is poured forth. not that our obedience replaces Christ and His perfectness but that it places us into His perfectness, by way of our free choice AND by way of our submission. we are slaves in Christ - to what end? not just salvation but "treasure in heaven".
:bowsmiley: :priest:
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--], only Jesus Christ was obedient and it's His obedience we trust, never ours. [/quote] i agree completely, which is why i cannot deny the need to be clothed with Him by God during the act of baptism (based upon faith and repentance)
Romans 6:3
Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
also keep in mind:
Romans 6:16
Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
for it is our obedience - ours, not God's - that results in righteousness. and obedience is a performance of man's - through God giving him/her the ability to obey, sure, but hinging upon that persons choice[/] to do so.
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Yes, we do need to trust in/have faith in/believe in our Lord and Savior. My question to you is: where did we obtain the ability to do so?[/quote]
beyond the shadow of a doubt, the ability to have faith comes from God. and to be beings with free choice, so did the ability to not have faith. we are the only ones who can control whether or not we will follow. that is choice, a performance of submission orchestrated by the human in question - unless you belive in predestination or a literal 144,000 i suppose. ?
if salvation was completely of God, with nothing at all contingent upon man, then why this world, this physical place of action and choice? because it is here in this realm that we perform; as individual beings not puppeted by anything, free to choose to love.
people choose to be Christians. God doesn't force them to be.
i don't believe that salvation is "centered" on the individual, so we are in agreement there. i do however believe that salvation is contingent on that individual. some limit that contingency to faith. i believe the Bible presents a slightly larger "hinge" that includes guilt/decision to be better(repentance), a living daily confession like Peter's of the divinity of Jesus, and a baptism by water like Jesus Himself, and the examples of numerous people just like me in the NT for the remission and washing away of their sins.
i appreciate this dialogue segell, and your obvious joy and apprecitation of grace that is in our Creator - available to all those that will but choose to accept it
;)
Good morning, Wiley.
I'm off to church, too. Thanks for your words of understanding and encouragement.
I want to make clear that my wife and I are serving in a wonderful non-denom church, Christ and Bible-Centered. We know and love many in the CofC and while we would not continue to worship in the churches I cited above, we certainly know many grace centered churches (and I am so grateful to realize that the numbers of those types of churches in the RM are growing).
One of the things I have truly admired from my brothers and sisters in the cofC - is the love for and dependence on the Word of God. I love studying and reading also. I wish that Christians outside of the RM movement would have more of the same hunger for God's Word. (Not that many, many don't, mind you).
Well, I must be off now too. Thanks for your note. I have always appreciated your words of love, wisdom and concern. This community of believers at GC Magazine are blessed to know you.
Talk with you soon.
Steve
ps - by the way, here is the web site to the church I love serving in the Baltimore area. If you are ever nearby, Grandpa (:clap:) would you please be my guest? I know I will want to be yours if I am ever near your home in Texas. Grace Fellowship Church (http://www.gfc.org)
God's grace = truly a wonderful and mysterious subject!
can i do a little study? (i know this is a lot of verses, my apologies!)
1[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Acts 15:11
"But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."
[/quote]
the grace of the Lord Jesus: well we know that grace is a free gift. is it fair then to say that we are "saved through the [free gift] of the Lord Jesus"? if so, what is the free gift of the Lord Jesus?
Romans 5:15
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
[/quote]
"the gift by the grace of the one Man" - this seems to say to me that the gift itself isn't just grace, but something that was given BY grace.
i'm sure you can see where i may be leading. the gift of Jesus is that He gave His life. that He died as a sacrifice to His/our Father to atone for our sins. a gift of atonement by grace.
back to acts 15:11 - can we say we are saved through the atoning death and resurection of the Lord Jesus? sure
2[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
[/quote]
faith comes by hearing, but what is faith? it's belief in things unseen, yes. and what else? faith is a way of life (Galatians 3:11, Galatians 2:20, Romans 1:17, Hebrews 10:38)
so, "for by grace you have been saved through [belief AND a way of life]"
belief, we know, is in the unseen death, burial, raising of the Son of God
so how do we make that faith, that death, burial, raising of the Son of God a way of life? this is an imperative, because if we do not make that faith into obedience:
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]2 Thessalonians 1:7,8
...the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
[/quote]
how do we make that faith into servanthood? well, "the walk by faith" has a certain, narrow path. it's not just belief, but a living. that living is the physical actions of obedience found upon that narrow path.
3 before i continue on this line of thought, let me make sure faith is not just belief, but also action:
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]James 2:14
What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
James 2:17
Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
James 2:18
But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."
James 2:20
But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
James 2:22
You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
James 2:24
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
James 2:26
For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
[/quote]
yes, that's a lot of James! there are other verses as well, but these are the easiest to find, of course.
James substantiates that faith is belief AND action (works).
4 back to that narrow path of living - aka action/works;
what actions of obedience are on the narrow path of a live faith? of true belief?
repentance:[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Mark 6:12
They went out and preached that men should repent.[/quote][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]2 Corinthians 7:10
For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.
[/quote]
so repentance leads to salvation, repentance is an action that leads to something else that saves.
may i be so bold as to impress upon you that repentance follows belief and sorrow(2 Corinthians 7:9)?
further:[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Acts 26:20
...kept declaring ...even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance.[/quote]
"deeds appropriate to repentance" - again actions "declared" that people should do - people who were not already Christians. repentance is an action of man's required to be "led" to the deeds on the narrow way.
confession:[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Romans 10:10
for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.[/quote]
so confession results in salvation. confession is a deed done by a man/woman. (may i also note that "righteousness" and "salvation" do not appear to be the same thing in this verse? - i believe that applies directly to the article?) this deed is part of the narrow path.
-this is an appropriate time to note that belief itself is not enough:[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]John 12:42
Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue;[/quote] in associtation with:[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]1 John 4
...and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. [/quote]
so belief must lead to the action of confession, for if you refuse to confess Christ you are denying Him.
baptism:[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Romans 6:4 -
Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. [/quote]
we are buried into death by our baptism. death is the end of our sinful state, a state which doesn't end via any other act of obedience. then through baptism[/] we are raised to walk in newness. there's no other way to walk in newness but to be raised. this verse shows "the raising" being at the point of baptism.
and [!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Col 2:12
having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. [/quote]
baptism raises you to newness through faith - belief AND the actions of living. we must have faith that our baptism truly does what God says it does, which is raising us from the death of our sinful state
ministering and obeying: you know the verses for this i'm sure, and as this post grows faster and faster, i'll this section be.
5 these verses and commentary may seem over the top but they are necessary for a thorough understanding of grace.
grace comes by faith. faith is a lifestyle of choices upon which our getting grace is contingent. to fully understand how grace comes, we must note that faith is not just belief but action as well. -if faith is only belief it is dead, unable to save us, because it lacks its action (see James).
it's "actions" include belief AND repentance, confession, baptism, and ministering to the needy (physically and spiritually)
faith summarizes ALL of these, it is not limited to belief! [!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]1Peter 3:21 -
Corresponding to that {the faith of noah and God saving him for it}, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, [/quote] faith corresponding to baptism now saves you (better worded - God now saves you via)
also, realize that each of these are continuing processes
belief must endure, we should continually repent of our sins, if you deny Christ you anull your confession, baptism continually washes away our sins, and we must continue in the evangelism of the great commission.
6 please, i beg your forgiveness but sometimes my studies can't be as little as i would like! :D
i'll end with this, i promise! there are measures of grace
God gave His grace by pushing forward the sins of the Jews in their sacrifices.
God then gave His grace by giving His Son as the eternal sacrifice, dying a horrible sorrowful death for ME!
God has given even more grace by writing out, plainly His plan for salvation that even I may read it today and learn through it.
God tells us that through our faith (belief AND actions rolled together in one word) we can recieve the grace of being clothed as Christ, that He will call us good and faithful servants (people who DO His will, not just believe in it).
Finally, God gives His grace by continuing to let the world spin that more may come to know Him, as that responsibility lies on our willing shoulders - a light yoke with His helping hand.
Finally - there is a movement that asks yet another helping of grace from God. to be saved without submission to Him. they ask to be called good and faithful servants without believe the "serve" part is really necessary.
for me, the grace of God by sending His Son is more than sufficient! for through Him I am more than conqueror, and to be in Him requires a faith that includes the essential nature of actions (baptism in this particular thread), for there is no other sacrifice, no other gift, no other measure of grace than this by which we may be saved.
phew, i just forgot to take my lunch break, but i'm done!
:clap:
So who is this Todd guy? His article was sort of the basic old cofC stuff. He didn't address ALL of the things in the other article.
He was saying "add them all up and make one answer for the 'what must I do to be saved' question." That's not what the Bible does.
Chris
hi!
could I interject here? I posted this one the other thread, and since it's dead I thought maybe some of you might get to it here... sorry I'm interupting!
as long as the author is using the lives of Old Testament figures to determine how people under the New Testament covenant are "considered righteous" or saved, i'd like to throw one into the mix...
a personal favorite of mine Joshua... please forgive the bias!
Joshua 6:2-3
"And the Lord said to Joshua, See, I have given into your hands Jericho with its king and all its men of war.
Now let all your fighting-men make a circle round the town, going all round it once. Do this for six days."
God has already given Jericho to Joshua. - vs 2
Now get Jericho by marching around it - vs 3-21
apply it to the topic:
God has already given you salvation.
Now get it by believing, repenting, being baptized, ministering.
this isn't long and drawn out with exegetical and hermenutic word studies, etc. like our author; but i believe it serves the point...
the article pushes the idea that you don't need to be baptized to be saved because faith is enough... maybe it doesn't say so blatantly but that's certainly the push...
apply that to Joshua and the troops:
what if they rationalized to each other, "we already have Jericho because we have faith that God has already given it to us. we don't HAVE to walk around the city 13 times over the next week. sure it's obedience, but even if we didn't do the marching and trumpet blowing we definitely HAVE Jericho; God said so in vs 2, right?"... as they stood around outside of the walls of the city...?
it's the same mental viewpoint of the author and the agenda he wrote the article with
so, would the walls have fallen if they didn't march around them? does anyone dare suggest they would? you might think i'm being closed minded or overly assertive by asking that, please don't take it offensively, but do you?
Toddrow,
Sorry if I offended you. I remember you by your screen name. I didn't make the connection with you and the article. I like being a moderator......the pay is so great........and the benefits.....wow.......they also hooked me up with this intern..........no wait, that's the dream I had last night. LOL
I do have a question on baptism. And I am not asking this to make a point. I promise! I just want to know.
I have read your article, though I did skip a few paragraphs because I thought I knew what you were going to say. My question is...
In your opinion, why does Peter not use all 5 steps to salvation at once, ever? I am NOT trying to make a point. I really want to know. I believe that all are necessary, I just wish it were clearer. Because it is not clear, I feel that God will grant grace to those who do not complete it. I'm sorry if that doesn't make since. I have just "worked out my own.." you know what I mean?
Anyway. A moderator has the right to ask questions....right?
Tyler
jarschqua -
That's not the point. How does God's work get done? By our obedient living in accordance with His will. How does our salvation occur? By God's grace.
Jericho was already given to Joshua as you point out. Joshua trusted God and in faith obeyed Him. It wasn't his obedience that brought the walls down - it was accomplished by God's will and grace. Joshua trusted God and was in relationship with him. Joshua's faithful trusting is what God blessed - not his marching. Hope I'm communicating the distinction. And that fits Eph 2:8-10 wonderfully, doesn't it? Let's get the focus off of us and onto Christ. He accomplished everything in His life, death and resurrection. We have but to trust it. And God knows our hearts as He well knew Joshua's.
Steve
To those trying to access my article:
Lee tells me the file is corrupted, but there is a way to access it.
1) Reboot your computer and open the page containing my article.
2) BEFORE DOING ANYTHING ELSE - go to the "File" drop-down menu and use the "Save as" option to save the document to file (e.g., give it a name and save it in "My Documents").
3) Exit your browser and open the file using Adobe Acrobat.
If this doesn't work, I will be happy to send you a .pdf version or .wpd version of the article as an attachment. I am working on sending Lee another version to upload this weekend.
Good luck.
Todd
may i humble suggest that the mockery of God's grace to me is that some expect it without being submissive to Him. believing in grace is not the same thing as recieving the grace.
i don't think one can remove the term "saves" from references to believing, repenting, being baptised. God is not a God of confusion - i can take Him at His Word and believe He will do what He promises. and He promises to assign us certain graces when we are baptised. i want those graces! He's the one that used the words "baptism now saves you" and "washing away your sins" and "the remission of sins" with baptism. i want all those things, so i do what He says for the reasons that He says. it's simple, it's easy, it's not confusing, nor hard to bear.
it's not about condemning the unbaptized, it's about believing what God says baptism does in us by His power.
a work done by Him.
Jesus did a deed. He submitted Himself to death and hanging on some wood. to bleed and die and then rise.
in Jesus' deed God performed a work. He put upon His Son all the sins of mankind, then raised Him as a newly cleansed being - having surpassed our pasts by His grace.
in like manner - I can do a deed. i submit myself to death and burial in some water. to bleed away my sins and then rise.
in my simple deed, my clothing with Christ occurs - God performs a work. He takes my sin and nails it on the cross with His son, then raises me as a new creature - having surpassed my past by His grace.
the grace is still God's. it's a free gift. identifiying myself with Jesus' death is not a work of mine it's a work of His; God then chooses to see the image of His son when He looks at me, as I am clothed with Him now. not done by my power, not saved by my work, but salvation is imparted (a work of God's) when i submit to His baptismal graces.
understand, trust is just a choice. baptism is just a choice. there's no difference inherently in choices in your mind and choices with your body because they all come from the heart. it is when the heart is pricked to make the right choice that God is willing to give His graces as we perform the deeds He has chosen to impart those graces in.
but He has not said to give those graces before we do the deeds that He has chosen to do His work (of salvation) through.
to me it's so beautifully easy. if God says "I'll save you (the work being His, not mine) when you have repented and been baptized into my Son" - i just believe Him. it's far too much effort to argue my way out it!
segell, i appreciate your focus on grace very much. we certainly need to focus on that grace and understand that our works don't do the saving, but God does it - when He's said He would!
i believe God gives His graces when says He will; and I don't think we're really that far apart on that. i also, personally, don't think that a person's understanding of what baptism is for will negate the effect of that baptism. and that's because it's a work of God's, independent of how much meat we're on verses milk.
i agree thoroughly that it is a huge mistake to say that we earn God's grace through our actions. God's grace is given when we do the actions He has said will be accompanied by those graces. all the work is done by Him, and it's a huge task cleaning a wretch such as i!
God assigned us certain actions. then assigned certain graces to those actions. that's His choice, not mine; it's a divine institution, not man-made. my trust is in Him when i believe He'll do what He says He'll do as i submit to Him.
beautiful. simple. a light yoke. a loving Lord.
enjoying this conversation :noddingsmiley:
well steve if i'm not the one doing the deed, who is?
am i a mere puppet swung on strings by my creator?
no. because then all of us as puppets would come to God and be saved. how could you possibly come to the conclusoin that i can't do deeds Biblically? truly curious!
yes i can do deeds, and some are right and some are wrong.
God credits the right ones as righteousness. but if i sit on my hands, burying my oppurtunity to do right, God shall take from me my one "talent" and give it to the one who did something with his life -irregardless whether i know God.
for knowing the master is not enough in Jesus' parable.
you have to do something with your knowledge as well.
God told us what to do. invest your knowledge by applying it to your life and obeying Him. THEN we shall recieve back with interest and be given command over many things in the kingdom of heaven. otherwise we'll be thrown into the outer darkness.
we must be wary in this my brothers.
yes i can do deeds steve. and i must do deeds.
i mean in all seriousness, what's the alternative? do you think that "trust" is not a deed? certainly it is!
it is a mockery of God's Word, and the effort and death of the apostles for writing that word via the Holy Spirit to say the truths they wrote don't mean what they say! baptism saves.
God's words not mine.
nowhere does the Word say be baptised because you are saved. because it's not the case.
if it was, God would have said so.
He told us what part our repentance, confession, belief, baptism, and ministry to those in need play in our eternal state. i shall take Him at His word.
all of His word. not just verses on baptism, not just verses on belief, not just verses on faith, and not just verses on grace.
by the way, you'll find something interesting in the context of many passages quoted for salvation. many, many of them are written to those that are already Christians. if Christians are then told that faith saves them, that is instruction that is in addition to (coming after) their having been added to the church. - a state i believe to only be mentioned in conjunction with repentance and baptism - (having followed hearing and belief)
Romans, for example, was written to Christians in Rome.
the same for all the epistles as well.
those are additional instructions to those who are already born again into Christ, not new and different ways to become a Christian that could contradict what Peter instructed in Acts.
i believe the words of the apostles are bound upon us here on earth. and they showed by command and example of doing unto others that baptism is something they expect one to do to become a Christian. that's enough. the mystery of God's grace isn't for me to try and contain, i shall merely trust AND obey.
hey that kinda rhymed. steve if you feel worn out and like this is all repeat, i'd be sorry to see you go, your conversation style is uplifting and interesting, however i do thank you for the indulgence of your time and effort, brother.
in Him
newtome, my friend.
Oh but it does....
Steve
:alert: notice that I'm asking questions, not "ad-hominem"-attacking! :alert:
Steve -
You have been discussing (this may be an inadequate "Janine" description) how unfair and inaccurate it is to teach people to put faith in the concept of obeying the Messiah having anything at all to do with being saved by Him.
Using a convenient source of other potentially unfair emphases, may I ask you to illustrate the unfairness/error of teaching people that their hearing/learning some basics about Jesus, why He came, that He isn't dead any more, etc., is an integral part of His saving them?
And is it inaccurate/unfair to teach that they must weigh what they learn and believe Him, believe in Him, believe that He can save them, before He will?
What about teaching that people must realize in some way their inadequacies, their personal sinfulness, and decide to renounce that old way and turn to Jesus, before He will save them? Before He can save them?
Is it wrong to teach that there needs to be some confession of the Christ? That a person who will not share the Good News will not be saved?
And how about the concept that the blessed gift of salvation can be thrown away, refused after receipt, trashed, given back to the Giver? Is there room for that in your philosophy, in your personal teaching? Is it even possible?
You may have become burnt out on the topic, since you've been discussing it quite a bit for the past few days; next time you feel like looking at it again, let me know if anything I've asked is worth discussing, OK?
To James Rondon,
In reference to your first point, I should have chosen my words more carefully. I should have said, "any open-minded, honest individual CAN see in the book of Acts the connection between baptism and remission of sins." There are a lot of good, honest people who read the book, but have been so misled and misguided by denominational teaching so as not to see what is obviously there. Therefore, they DON'T see it, but that doesn't mean they CAN'T see it.
Second, you wrote: [Considering that the current, majority view in the CoC regarding baptism has, as you have alluded to in your article, only been held for (approximately) the past 200 years, am I to understand that dishonesty and close-mindedness reigned until the 19th century?... Where was the church during all of that time?...]
You have misrepresented what I said. I simply noted that a lot of what we know about the Lord's church is from the American Restoration Movement (ARM). Members of the Lord's church have ALWAYS practiced immersion of believers in order to obtain remission of sins, else they wouldn't be members of the Lord's church.
Now, please read what I wrote on page 4 of my article: "I believe the church is Divine in origin, and has always existed since the day of Pentecost (Matt 16:18; Acts 2)." I made this point in explanation to my statement of "the church as we have known it for the last 200 years."
In the Vatican library, there is record of the Catholic church persecuting citizens for practicing immersion of believers for remission of sins. This was done in the 11th century.
There is also evidence in other areas, particularly Great Britian, that the church existed there a few hundred years before the ARM.
If one were so inclined, I think it would be fair to say that for the most part, dishonesty did reign in the realm of "Christendom" for all those years, as the Catholic church dominated the religious world for hundreds of years. This is perhaps the most dishonest religion known to man, as they teach the doctrine of mental reservation. That is, it is acceptable to lie so long as the lie is told in the interest of the Catholic church.
I think it also fair to say that dishonesty is still dominant in the religious world today. Moderism and religious pluralism is dishonest at its very core. So are modern-day charismatic leaders (Hinn, Parsley, Oral Roberts, etc). Those who deny the reality of objective truth, especially those in religious circles, I believe, are dishonest. People who do not want their religious views challenged, or are unwilling to bring them to the table, whether they be members of the Lord's church or otherwise, are dishonest. (And yes I believe there are a lot of dishonest members of the church.)
Having said that, may I encourage you to please read my material more carefully before making further accusations.
I have already been accused of not reading my opponent's article, when anyone who read my article would know that is obviously untrue. What is interesting is this, the one who made the accusation admitted that he had not read my article before attacking it, me, and the congregation where I preach.
Todd
To Steve:
You wrote: [Todd, it sounds like you are saying that if one is not immersed in proper fashion, they can not be part of the church. I see that in your post, but I don't see that excluvism anywhere in Scripture. Are you presuming to speak where God is silent?]
Not at all. I'm only saying what Luke recorded in Acts 2:38-47. Those Jews were baptized in order to receive remission of sins and were thereupon added by the Lord to the church.
In reference to being sinful by nature -- are children born with sin? If we are sinful by nature, then children are conceived as sinners and in need of God's grace from conception. Reconcile your view of Psalm 51:5 with James 1:14-16.
I will not "get off the denominational thing." A denomination is larger than the local congregation and smaller than the church universal. Such a concept is absolutely foreign to the Bible. The church of Christ is compose of all saved individuals, that is, those who have complied with God's requirements for entrance into the kingdom. And no, that does not include everyone who believes in Jesus (Matt 7:21-23; John 12:42; James 2:19 etc).
I might suggest that YOU spend some time studying what God's sovereignty really is. When a king has a kingdom, he has the sovereign right to determine the terms of entrance and residence in that kingdom. Jesus' is a King - 1 Tim 6:13 and the church is His kingdom - Matthew 16:18-19. As a king with a kingdom, Jesus has the sovereign right to determine who gains entrance into that kingdom. Anyone who meets His criteria is assured of entrance, and all who do not meet the criteria are outside the kingdom. Jesus has joined hearing the gospel, believing it, and obeying it through repentance, confession, and baptism, to entrance into His kingdom. He is sovereign; He has that right. THAT is what the sovereignty of Jesus is all about.
You also need to spend some time studying what God's grace is all about. God's grace is given to all men (Titus 2:11-14), and all men who are saved will be saved by grace (Eph 2:5-10), but this does not mean all men will be saved (Matt 7:21-27). God's grace is received (appropriated) through man's obedience to God's law.
Such was the case with Noah, saved by grace when he by faith obeyed God's law, and not without obediece. According to your concept of grace, Noah shouldn't have had to pick up the first piece of wood or the first hammer and nail. However, the Bible said Noah obeyed according to ALL that God commanded him (Gen 6:22), and that through preparing the ark his house was spared (Heb 11:7). Was Noah a legalist?
Such was the case with those being bitten by fiery serpents in Numbers 21. Were those who were spared saved by God's grace? Absolutely. But WHEN? Before they looked upon the brass serpent or after? Only after they obeyed God's law of salvation. And no, I don't think they thought they merited God's favor by looking at the serpent. Were they legalists?
Such was the case with Joshua, the Israelites, and the city of Jericho. Did the walls fall by God's grace? Yes. But did they fall before or after they obeyed God's law? Did this make them legalists?
Such was the case with Naaman (2 Kings 5) and the blind man of John 9. Both healed by grace, but not until after they obeyed the command of God. Were these men legalists? Did they think they healed themselves b/c they obeyed? Hardly.
Such is the case with men today. The only cure for the sickness of sin is the blood of Christ. But that blood isn't contacted until we obey the commands (law) of God (Heb 5:9; etc). This no more makes me or any of my brethren legalists than any of those I just mentioned.
I understand about God's sovereignty and grace. I think you are the one who needs to do a little book work.
Todd
i think you make a fabulous point barb; thank you, truly!
it is of great value for you to remind us that, yes we do both speak of grace, and love God for it. thank you for your comments, grace be to you!
and thanks for the smile you brought to my face with you jump-roping eploits analogy as well! :D :crackup: :noddingsmiley:
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]However, scripture DOES tell us what to have in the Lord's supper. That then says 7up and cornbread is not not acceptable to our Lord. Now compare that with the unbaptized believer. Scripture tells us WHAT we must do to be saved. WHAT puts us into Christ where all spiritual blessings are....including salvation. So that does away with the idea that the scriptures do not say anything about an unbaptized believer being lost.
[/quote]
Amen sister!
Nelta - Thank you for your response.
Again, when I have time I would like to share with you a deeper study into God's grace, His sovereignty and our sin. Based upon my study and prayer, I've come to the conclusion that the purpose of baptism, as you espouse, would be contrary to the very nature of Almighty God and contrary to His purpose and plan. Certainly all Christians - note, I say Christians - are to be baptized as commanded by our Lord. It is in the purpose of baptism where we find our disagreement. You see, God, by His character, wouldn't make His blesssing of salvation contingent upon a method, ritual or performance by man. That would be absolutely contrary to His plan of salvation by His grace through faith. See Galatians 2:20 to 21. Furthermore, Scriptures tell us that we were at war with God. He reconciled us to Him. We did not breach that gap. And how did He do that? By the power of the Holy Spirit in each believer's life. We are not able to believe nor trust nor love God in our own strength, power or will. Something is done to our ugly, sinful hearts that open us to His Truth? That is by His Spirit - the same Spirit that seals us in Christ Jesus. That is the pricking of the heart that is revealed in Act 2. That is the moment when we come face to face with Almighty God through His Son, our Savior and Lord Jesus Christ. That is divine stuff - not human stuff. Right? So, why would God hold off His free, yet extremely costly gift until such time as a person finds the water and the person to complete a baptism. Our Holy, Sovereign God does not need a demonstration of our obedience in order to impart His blessing because our greatest obedience is nothing but bloody rags. He knows our heart better than we do. His plan is about trust. Remember, we deserve hell. It is only in trusting in the righteousness and perfect obedience of Jesus Christ that we are found blemish free - white as snow. It is when God opens our hearts, reveals His truth that we come to Him by faith. He then leads us into repentance and confession of the Lord Jesus Christ. That is when, I believe Scriptrue reveals, that He leads us into an act of obedience and submission to Him in baptism. He does it all, Nelta.
To that brother or sister who would suggest that their infant, covenential baptism was sufficient, or a pouring or sprinkling -I would share my view about a believer's baptism and immersion. But I would also rest in the full understanding of our Lord's sovereignty and grace that led that brother or sister into a trusting, intimate relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. That the basis of our fellowship would be in their declared belief, faith and trust in our Lord and Savior.
Finally, (whew, a bit windy here, huh? :D ) the legalism I referred to had nothing to do with Rome (other than Rome perhaps representing another standard of "to do's" in order to be saved). These were conservative cofC's. (I'm not suggesting all churchs of Christ are this way. I have wonderful brothers in Christ that are in and from the RM - Ed Fudge, Max Lucado, Dallas Burdette - to name a few). I believe, Nelta, that the legalism found in many churches stems from the traditional view that it is in the baptism that God extends His blessing and favor unto salvation. I believe that misses the core of the Gospel - which is God's extraordinary grace. You see, when we have a system of beliefs that takes our eyes off of Christ Jesus and the purpose of the cross and focuses on a list of things we have to do to be saved, well, that leads into a whole divisive fallout regarding man's definitions of faithfulness. What a burden to place on a person or a body of believers.
My wife's mother is dying. After 25 years with certain churches of Christ (attending every service) - she said one of the saddest things I've ever heard. She said: "I don't know if I'm good enough to go to Heaven". The truth of the matter is she isn't. Neither are any of us. But the glory of God's truth is that JESUS is!!!!! And we need to do no more than place our faith in Him, and Him alone. So, even though my mother-in-law: 1. heard the word. 2. Repented of her sins. 3. Confessed the Lord Jesus. 4. Was baptized in order to be saved. 5. and tried to live the faithful life...... at the end of her life she has no heartfelt assurance of her salvation. And you know why? She was taught that SHE had to do certain things in order to be saved.....instead of trusting in ALL the things JESUS did in His life, death and resurrection. To essentially trust in one's self - no wonder that leads to doubt.
This sad situation is one of the reasons why I will continue to periodically share on this wonderful website what I think Scripture reveals to us about God's plan of salvation.
I thank God for GCMagazine and it's ministry and all the wonderful Christians I have had the privilege and honor of meeting and talking with. I've learned so much from so many and I am awed by the love of God and the hunger for His Word that I see here day in and day out.
Blessings to all.
Steve
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Is baptism necessary for salvation?
Answer: It was for mine.
Janine[/quote]
Curious about your post. šMay I ask how and why you said that? šI ask with great respect.
Steve[/quote]
I surely do appreciate the way you and some others try so carefully to engage each other in discussion without sounding like you're attacking each other. šI guess I haven't cultivated as good an approach because I take too often for granted that people know I love them in the Lord & leave my disagreements with them ultimately in God's hands.
I don't pretend to have reduced the grace of God, and His sweeping eternal plan to save me from myself, into a simple formula, with which I can invoke His forgiveness. šHa! As if I were some sort of necromancer & He a demon helpless against my arcane knowledge of summoning spells...
But, silence speaks nothing. šAll I can go by in Scripture is what is stated. šI do not think I am limiting God or telling Him what He can and cannot do - whom He can and cannot save - by teaching that an immersion into Christ happens in water, a symbolic death/burial/rebirth/resurrection into a new life.
By teaching that a baptism, earnestly submitted to, is no less a part of my laying myself bare to God, than are a repentant attitude or a basic knowledge that He is... exactly how am I undermining the acknowledgement of & necessity for a total helpless submission to the healing grace of God?
How am I eviscerating (emasculating?) Jesus' sovereign power to save, by teaching people that they need to know Him, to submit to Him, to be willing to leave behind their sins and sinful ways? šI'm not, am I?
Also then, how am I discounting His work if I teach that to be baptized is an urgent thing, taught by example in the Scriptures? šLongtime believers seized the opportunity to submit to it, people in dire straits jumped at the chance when they first heard about the Lord, people with a wonderful but partial knowledge welcomed the chance to be immersed when they learned more... no matter what angle they approached the Lord from, they wanted into that water ASAP.
Why would I fash myself & get all sweaty to try to explain away any possible salvific benefit of "baptism for the remission of sins/then to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"? šWhy would I want to bend over backwards & cut conversational cartwheels to divorce being "baptized into Christ" from "being baptized"?
I certainly will not grab a bullhorn & shout on the streetcorners that anyone not dunked according to my specifications is bound for the Big Frying Pan past the grave... Thank God that's not my judgement call to make!
But, I will not take from the Word references to baptism, passages that tie submission thereunto to being in Christ & being accounted sin-free, and tweeze them out & never teach them, because either (a) some people don't come to an understanding that baptism is tied in some mysterious way to salvation, or (b) some people mindlessly shove new disciples into the water, teaching only some sort of voodoo-ish adherence to baptism, as if the location or the water saves...
That's how and why I said that. šThanks for asking, I appreciate it when people ask me to clarify my murky thoughts. šGod bless you today, my dear.
newtome -
We are just missing one another and are so close.
All of those things - belief, repentance, confession, baptism, faithful living - are hall marks of a Christian. We both agree to that, right? But what we don't agree on is for what purpose. As you will note, I have time and again stated that we are called to do good works (Eph. 2:10 and many other scriptural support including James' wonderful admonishment). We completely (whether you might agree or not) make a mockery out of God's grace if we place ANY work as a meritous action deserving God's favor and gift of eternal life. He does not say that we must confess to be saved - I believe in all references that God says something along the lines of whoever confesses Christ Jesus will be saved. The difference is this and I must admit that it is difficult to grasp at first, is that those things reflect the changed heart, the conversion of one who is in Christ Jesus. It is the changed heart that reflects the work of God's Spirit in our lives. Read all of 1 John 4. So the statements are true! Think carefully about what God is really after. Do you think it is our behavior or the thing that changes our behavior? God is after yours and my heart. Period. He loved us first so that we could love Him. 1 John 4:19. Remember we are saved by God's grace, through faith. All we can do for our salvation is TRUST God for our salvation. He did it all - once and for all.
It is extremely sad that there are so many who have gone through the "gotta do's" to be saved and still do not have the assurance of their salvation. You know why? Because they are trying to earn it instead of realizing their abject sinful, spiritually bankrupt condition and trusting completely in all that Jesus did in His living, dying and resurrecting. Tey find themselves believing, in part, in what they've done. God redeems us by His grace!! We are completely without merit. Read Is 64:6, Is 53:6, Romans 3:23, Gal 5:2-6 and on and on. Before Christ, we were dead! What changed that? Anything we could do? God forbid, Paul would tell us. We, who are deserving of death find ourselves justified (declared not guilty) because of what Jesus Christ did. Do we deeply in our hearts know and believe and trust that? If we do, we join one another in an awesome, humble and joyous reception of God's free gift of eternal life. If we think we can add to what Christ did in order to merit or receive God's mercy - then Christ died for nothing. See the Galatians reference above.
Friend, I believe this so important and I pray that you will pray and ask God for His enlightenment - not just on what I am trying to communicate to you. You see, John tells us how we can know that we are saved - without any doubt whatsoever. That by the Holy Spirit who lives inside a believer 1 John 3:24. Has He assured you of your salvation? Do you know it without any doubt whatsoever? I pray that you do. I pray that for all our brothers and sisters who love this website. Because, that assurance is ours in Christ Jesus and it's His promise to us - as we find ourselves sealed by the Spirit of the Holy Living God. There should never, ever be any doubt in a believer's heart of his spiritual condition in Christ Jesus because He lives within us and that is undeniable. The believer knows that he is a new creature because of God's work in his life - not the beleiver's work.
newtome, you know I'll even go a little further. I believe that our ability to believe, our ability to receive God's gracious gift of eternal life and our ability to live faithful lives are ALL by God's grace and through the power of the Holy Spirit. That is why we having nothing to boast in except our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 1 Cor 1:31; Gal 6:14 and Eph 2:9.
God can't love us more or less because of our efforts. In fact He loves us in spite of them. So much so that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16.
We make Christianity like every other religion in the world if we preach that there is an "our part" to God's glorious plan for redemption and salvation. Are we an important part of God's plan? Oh you bet!! He died for me!! and you!! Jesus says trust in Me. Prov 3:5, John 14:1. God is trustworthy!! Amen?
God bless you, friend.
Steve
steve, how would Joshua and the troops have gotten into the city if they hadn't marched around it?
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (tennman @ Feb. 07 2003,3:40)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]It's on the same page as the other. Just go to the home page of gcm........to that picture of the trees and the water.....click there.
TyLER[/quote]
Tennman,
Thanks for pointing me there.
Of course, just my luck, when I bring up Todd's article, everytime I go to past the cover page, the program crashes on me!
Maybe a re-boot will fix that later in the day.
Duckman
toddrow
Thanks for your posting. If you would have the inclination, I would ask that you read my postings on this and the other thread if you haven't already done so. I've laid out my disagreement with the perspective you bring in those postings, so I don't want to bore you and any other reader with a regurgitation of what has already been written (ahem, and at some length, I might say. With my apologies to the readers. :) )
toddrow, what I would like to ask you is what do you mean by the phrase "what about those who don't complete it..." Are you referencing to complete our obedience? That portion you believe God entrusts us with with regard to salvation?
My first comment is that Jesus, at the end of His suffering, said "It is finished". The debt is paid. Jesus "completed" what the Father planned for salvation.
Allow me to list truths as revealed in Scripture:
1. Almighty God is completely sovereign.
2. God loves us with a love that is incomprehensible.
3. God knows each one of us to our core, better that we could possibly know ourselves.
4. Man, you and I, are sinners by our very nature.
5. Our hearts are wicked and deceitful.
6. Our most righteous acts are but bloody rags to our Lord and Savior.
7. We are not very reliable. We do the things we ought to do because we are most inclined to do the things we ought not to do.
8. Jesus is the spotless Lamb.
9. Jesus' obedience was perfect even unto death.
10. Christ paid the price, the debt, took it all on Himself for you and me.
11. God loves us so much He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him and trusts His accomplishments in His living, dying and rising on our behalf will not perish but have eternal life.
Question: why, oh why do you suppose that God would allow His perfect plan for salvation to rest even in part in persons such as we? Why would He choose to die and then demand from us something we cannot do - and that is to live perfectly obedient lives. Why would He add to what He already perfectly accomplished?
Ephesians 2:8-10 says that we are saved by God's grace through faith - not of any of our doing lest we should boast - in order for us to be able to do the good work that He planned for us to do before time (pardon the paraphrasing).
Christians are called to obedience and good works, Toddrow, so that we might join Christ in the inexplicable joy He has in the Father - not so that we can pass some litmus test or prove our selves or meet stipulations as some have argued. If that were the case, we would make a mockery of God's grace and His death would have been for naught.
Blessings to you.
Steve
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]all i need say is that the Bible doesn't say be baptized because i'm already saved.
that's sufficient.
[/quote]
Newtome, isn't it sufficient to say, "God wants me to be baptized, so I will." AND LEAVE IT THERE. Why is it so important for us to pinpoint a moment in time when we move from unsaved to saved?
Which is the better attitude - to be baptized so we won't get zapped (fire insurance) or to be baptized because God asked us to (obedience motivated by love)? Telling someone that they aren't saved until they are baptized only puts the fear of hell in them. Telling them that God loves them - the whole story - leads them to naturally ask, "What does God want me to do?"
Which do you think God prefers, obedience because of fear, or obedience because of love?
Never
Dear Steve,
In response to some of your post to me, and a note on your response to newtome on the same page:
You wrote: [toddrow, what I would like to ask you is what do you mean by the phrase "what about those who don't complete it..."]
I was simply using tennman's terminology, as he wanted to draw the line of inclusion for those who have not been baptized. I simply noted that if one can draw that line, then what prohibits anyone from drawing a line at any of the other places I noted. The truth is, God drew the line of remission of sins at baptism, and anything other than that falls short of what God commanded to contact the death and blood of Christ.
Also, we are not sinners by nature. That is the doctrine of hereditary depravity, which is opposed to Jesus' own view of children as revealed in Matthew 18 & 19.
Finally, you are in contradiction to yourself in your response to newtome.
To newtome you write: [I just believe that it is error to think that God's grace is dependent upon a series of actions by man.]
Then in the same post, you write: [We, just have to trust in Him for God's grace.]
Which shall it be? Doing nothing or trusting? Or does trusting qualify as doing nothing?
Todd
Nelta
Thanks for the response. In Christendom, there are many, many forms of baptism. Covenant infant baptism, sprinkling, pouring, etc, etc. I wanted to know if your premise is based on total immersion and for the remission of sins as a definition of baptism.
Thanks.
Steve
I am getting mixed up on "quotes and replies." I sent one to Steve that should have gone to Ark, I think.
Anyhow this one is for STEVE.
An infant who is "baptized" has no say in the matter and is not baptized by God's authority. Therefore, when that person grows up (reaches the age of accountability) to be added to the body of Christ where all spiritual blessings are, he must do what all other believers in the scriptures did.....be biblically baptized....after repenting of his sins. He then experiences the new birth (brought about by God....not ourselves.) BTW we do not join the body of Christ. HE adds us to His body.
I understand your wife's dilemma. The scriptures do not tell us to do all that Church stuff on certain days with certain people. That is all brought down to us from Rome. We have always taught that Sunday was the Lord's day when the scriptures donot teach that.
We need to come out of the institution of religion and seek God's will for our lives.
Nelta
Nelta Brock
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Janine
I just read your response and think you are so nice and what a privilege it is to know you and correspond with you. I love your wit and heart. You are a treasure, to be sure.
I've been wanting to write on this topic (and it's not so much about baptism, really) but about God's glorious and incomprehensible grace (so what makes me think I can write about it? :doh: ) Anyway, if I can be so bold to say - I can absolutely tell that your heart is in submission to our Lord and I thank God for our sibling relationship in Christ!
I want you to know that I agree wholeheartedly that Christians must submit themselves to Christ and His commands and that ALL Christians must therefore be baptized. The difference, perhaps, is to what end and purpose. (By the way, I don't think we are so far apart, at all). Janine, my studies of God's sovereignty, grace and my sin have led me to the views I've previously written about. My purpose is not to - in any way - condemn, but to share a view that might be considered and might lead one to a deeper, more intimate relationship with Christ Jesus.
It wasn't until I met my wife that I was introduced to the denomination of churches of Christ. At least to a very legalistic, sectarian and exclusive grouping of CofC churches.
For the last four years I've had the opportunity to study, debate, love and share with many in the CofC. I was thrilled to meet and correspond with many who actually are Christ and grace centered and share the view I've been trying to communicate with regard to God's grace and baptism - Ed Fudge, Max Lucado, Dallas Burdette to name but three. (I had thought ALL the CofC were like those churches I had experience with - about 5 different ones in various places in the country). In order to better communicate with my then girlfriend (now my wife) I needed to understand her point of view and heritage much more clearly.
I found it curious that the churches spawned out of the RM - a movement honestly and sincerely devoted to unity - were so sharply divided and with such animosity (in some places). I found it curious that a "love" would be demonstrated up and until there was a voiced disagreement. Anyway, I scratched my head over why that was and came up with a theory.
Janine, I think it stems from a theology that places an emphasis on a list of "to do's" a person MUST perform in order to be considered saved or termed a "brethren". That leads to defining those "to-do" things and that leads to disagreement, leading to disfellowshipping and declaring one "lost" or "condemned" for holding a contrary view. Whew. And that is why there are at least 25 different "types" of CoC born out of the RM. Something is wrong and I think the seed is found in the definition of righteousness and where righteousness is found. Some, like newtome, hold that righteousness is found in a person's obedience. I hold that Scripture tells us that righteousness is found in Christ alone. Our obedience reflects our love and trust in all that Jesus accomplished on our behalf in His life, death and resurrection. Lack of obedience is a barometer revealing how intimate our relationship with Christ really is.
And I guess when it comes to what we tell a non-believer -that baptism is one of the "must do's" in order to be saved - we miss the opportunity to help that non-believer see and experience the love, mercy and grace of our Lord and instead allow the non-believer the misconception that his sin problem can be dealt with by doing the following things. We, in essence, tell someone that his salvation is contingent upon his performance. See where the focus goes? And I think that flies in the face of God's sovereignty, grace and the condition of sin we find ourselves in.
There are many who come to Christ and are baptized almost immediately and I can certainly understand how and why their moment of being saved is tied to the point of being baptized. I also find baptism the wonderful gift of opportunity to cry out to Holy God in our desperate, desperate state trusting Him completely for the forgiveness of our sins and for a new life in Christ Jesus. Contrasting that, I also find the person, realizing his spiritual bankruptcy and absolute need for redemption and rescue - crying out at that moment, calling upon God, asking for forgiveness by declaring his acknowledgement of his sin and his complete faith/trust in Jesus being saved at that exact moment. The fact that there is noone available to baptize him or a place to be baptized would not change his eternal keeping. He, like the baptized believer, has been fully clothed in Christ, baptized by His Spirit through faith, dying to His past and rising with Christ a new and beloved creature.
I can't imagine anyone coming to the cross, utterly broken, placing themselves at Christ's feet in faith and Jesus saying something along the lines of "Well, that is a good start, but you will not be saved until you are baptized" If that were the case, then Jesus died for nothing and His grace is no grace at all.
Well, that's, very briefly, what I believe Scripture reveals in terms of God's sovereign plan, His grace and our utter spiritual bankruptcy (sin). You see, Jesus said His yoke is easy and His burden light. Some would have us believe that our obedience is not an obedience out of our love and new life in Christ, but an obedience that proves ourselves faithful. And that we MUST be obedient in order to be saved. What a heavy burden and hard yoke!! To me (and I believe Scripture reveals) that is a legalistic attitude and completely misses the transforming grace God imparts to Christians AFTER they've been saved.
Well, thanks for listening. I know this is long and apologize. Can't think of a shorter way of relating, I guess. (And gee, I haven't even begun the study with supporting Scripture. I will soon, I promise).
God bless you, too, sister.
Steve
To tennman,
Your comments regarding my article were posted while I was composing my reply to Chrischar. I didn't see it until after my post appeared. Thank you for proving me correct about the open-minded people on this board. I know GCM must be proud to have a moderator like you!
Todd Clippard
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]spurly wrote:
I thought the article was by an anonymous lover of God. Now are you telling me that Todd wrote it? The cat is out of the bag![/quote]
Kevin, I think that you are referring to the original article... Todd wrote a response to that article. There is a link to his response on the page where the other article's link is located.
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Duckman wrote:
Tennman,
Thanks for pointing me there.
Of course, just my luck, when I bring up Todd's article, everytime I go to past the cover page, the program crashes on me!
Maybe a re-boot will fix that later in the day.
Duckman[/quote]
Duckman, I have been having the same problem. In fact, until chrischar mentioned it, I didn't even know that this new article existed. I would like to read it, but I can't get past page one.
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]toddrow wrote:
Yes, yes, I know - I'm unloving, unkind, un(insert your own adjective here), for pointing this out and challenging you to answer my arguments. I have participated on this board before, but I left when I found out how intolerant all these tolerant, open-minded are.
Even posting these remarks is probably a mistake, but I tire of people who will not deal with the issue, but would rather cast disparagements on those who do not agree with their position.[/quote]
Todd, please don't generalize. I do not believe that I am intolerant... Although I have been in the past. As far as the issue is concerned, I have refrained from commenting on your article because I have not yet read it. I have been hoping to, however, as I just noted in response to Duckman, I too am experiencing problems in getting past the first page without it causing my computer to crash.
I'm sure that others probably accuse you of not dealing with the issue as well... This is an easy charge to levy. I have tried to continually deal with this issue, and several others, and have kept myself open to all possibilities. This means throwing out bias, and looking past preconceived ideas. It also means doing away with dogmatism.
I look forward to reading your article, and, if the Lord wills, I will respond to it after having done so.
May God be with us all as we continue to seek His will,
James Rondon
[!--EDIT|James Rondon|Feb. 07 2003,6:43--]
tennman,
Sorry about the delay in my reply. In response to your inquiries and comments:
[In your opinion, why does Peter not use all 5 steps to salvation at once, ever?]
At least two reasons come to mind. The first is illustrated beautifully in Jule Miller's filmstrips and videos of the same, in describing the different answers a man would receive to the same question "How far to NYC?" after beginning a long cross-country journey from LA. The man would receive different answers to that same question as he traveled on his way, and everyone would be telling the truth (assuming they gave the correct answer). In the conversion accounts in the book of Acts, we see every step in the plan of salvation mentioned in at least one account: the Philippian jailer was told to believe in Jesus (Acts 16); those on the day of Pentecost were commanded to repent and be baptized for remission of sins (Acts 2:38); the Ethiopian nobleman was prompted to affirm his faith in Jesus by confession (Acts 8). Also, confession may be inferred in Acts 2, as that would be the only way for the apostles to know whom to baptize. So, in the very first gospel sermon of Acts 2, we have the entire plan of salvation in front of us: the preaching of the gospel (vv 22-36), belief implied (v 37), repentance and baptism commanded (v 38), confession inferred (v 41), and faithful living exemplified (vv 42-47).
And in all these and other conversion accounts, the individuals were baptized. Any honest, open-minded individual who reads the book of Acts can reach no other conclusion than the necessity of baptism to receive salvation and remission of sins. Again, as I mentioned in my article, this is a key truth used in leading people out of denominational error and into Jesus Christ.
Also, in His earthly ministry and teaching, Jesus Himself joined every step in "the plan of salvation" to being saved: hearing the gospel - Mark 16:15-16; faith - John 8:24; repentance - Luke 13:3,5; 24:47; confession - Matthew 10:32-33; baptism - Mark 16:16; faithful living - Matthew 10:22.
Second: the general use of sermons on the plan of salvation (at least as far as I am concerned) are used on those who already believe in God and Jesus Christ, but are entangled in denominational (usually Calvinistic) error. Therefore it is necessary, not to go back and lay a foundation for belief in God and Jesus Christ, but to correct their misunderstanding of the God's plan to save. When I go to West Africa each year (I've been 4 times since 1999), when I am trying to convert a Muslim or someone in a pagan religion, I do not give them a "What Must I Do to be Saved?" type sermon. I go back and establish the validity and authority of the Bible, tell them the story of Jesus, and then show them what Jesus demands of them. This way, people are converted to Jesus and not to baptism or some persuasive preacher (2 Cor 2:1ff).
[I just wish it were clearer.]
I don't see how God could have made it much clearer than He did. And to imply otherwise is an indictment against God, and the Holy Spirit in particular. Do you really believe the God Who spoke the universe into existence (Gen 1; Heb 11:3), Who upholds all things by the word of His power (Heb 1:3; 2 Peter 3:7); Who sent His only Son into the world to suffer and die as a common criminal that we might be saved (Rom 5:6-10); went to all that trouble and then gave us a book that didn't make it perfectly clear what we must do to be saved? Just dropped a giant jigsaw puzzle on humanity and left us to our own devices? Like it or not, that is the logical conclusion of your statement.
[Because it is not clear, I feel that God will grant grace to those who do not complete it.]
I think I have shown that it's perfectly clear. And, this may sound harsh, how you "feel" is of absolutely no consequence (Prov 14:12; Jer 10:23; 17:9). (Consider those who didn't get it right in Matthew 7:21-23.) The only thing that matters is what God teaches in His Word.
What I find most interesting about all this is that people seem to draw the line of "confusion" (i.e., appropriation of grace without obedience) at baptism.
What about those who don't complete it by confessing Jesus (Rom 10:9-10)?
What about those who don't complete it by repenting of their sins (Acts 17:30-31)?
What about those who don't complete it by coming to faith in the deity of Jesus (John 8:24; 14:6, etc)?
What about those who don't complete it by having faith in God (Heb 11:6)?
What about those who don't complete it in reference to the all-sufficiency of the Bible (2 Tim 3:15-17)?
What about those who don't complete it by worshiping the pope, or any other man (John 4:23-24)?
Where are you going to draw the line? If you can minimize / eliminate the requirement of baptism, you can minimize / eliminate every single doctine I just mentioned.
toddrow
newtome,
I am enjoying.
One thing, when you say "baptism saves" then doesn't that take the focus away from Jesus Christ? If you want to say "Jesus saves and baptism brings you into Christ", but when people say baptism saves it sounds like a work to me too, and certainly to others.
It sounds like faith in baptism.
God bless.
Janine
Thanks. See my reply to you on the other thread.
Steve
Todd
Please, please listen to what I am trying to communicate. I am talking about SALVATION not the essential need to obey God's teachings AS A CHRISTIAN!! This is a fine distinction, I know - but please try and join me in at least acknowledging the distinction. We will continue discussing apples and oranges otherwise.
I say this with great respect. From Scripture I believe the view that your obedience in any way merits God's grace is in error and spiritually dangersous. It places the focus on the person and what he needs to do and not on the Lord Jesus Christ and ALL that He has provided by HIS obedience - even unto death.
You look to examples of commands and obedience in the Bible to suppor your perspective - but those do not go to God's plan of salvation, His gift of eternal life by His grace through faith. The necessity of our obedience (purpose of which is to advance HIS Kingdom and for us to experience Christ's joy) comes after being saved by grace through faith. Your perspective that we gain God's grace through our obedience makes a mockery of His grace and Christ's obedience and death.
If fact, our continued obedience in faith is by and through His strength and GRACE. Our obedience as believers does not indebt God to love us any more or less. In fact, as Christians, to obey is our duty and obligates God to do nothing toward us. Luke 17:10, Job 41:11, Romans 11:35.
Todd, I write this because I fear that sincere, God fearing people such as you, with a heartfelt desire to obey God, misplace the purpose of our obedience and place it as a precondition to being saved. If that were so, by what power in you did you have the ability to reconcile yourself to God - when Scripture tells us over and over that God reconciles us to Him. 2 Cor 5:16-21, John 6:44.
As to denominations, whether you wish to accept this as truth or not, the church of Christ is composed of ALL believers - many, many of whom worship in denominations, even the denomination of churches of Christ born out of the Restoration Movement of the early 19th Century.
Todd, as to our sinful nature - What do you think "evil desire" (NIV) in James 1:14 is? Where did that come from? It's from our sin nature, I believe. The nature that comes with our birth, even our conception. Unless we can truly see our condition, our desperate wicked condition - we won't be able to see Christ in His fullness, nor God and His Grace.
By the way, I didn't mean to presume that you have not studied Scripture, I meant to invite you to study it from a new perspective. It's evident you read and study the Bible, Todd. It seems to me that you do with an eye and perspective more focussed on you and what you think you must to instead of on Christ Jesus.
As to Titus 2:11-14, the NIV reads that God's grace has "appeared" to all men - not that all men have received it. And of course all men are not saved. Look deeply into the verses in Matt 7:21-27, Todd. Especially verse 22. What was it that those "evildoers" called upon? They called upon their merit in the things they purportedly did in the name of Christ. They called upon THEIR acts. That's why Jesus said, "I never knew you". You see, their focus was on themselves and not Christ Jesus.
That's the counsel I try to bring to this board in addressing the purpose of our obedience. Paul quickly and strongly responded to Christian Jews who insisted that Gentiles "do" certain things first before being accepted as Christians. There are counsel and caution in these examples of Scripture that, in my view, have strong application today. We should never, ever place conditions on fellowship whereby we expect another to "do" certain things, certain ways before considering them Christians. We should never, ever count our obedience as a prerequisite to gaining God's grace through faith. God has not ordered us to be saved by our obedience - He has commanded us to trust Him, have faith in EVERYTHING His Son accomplished. How could we possibly obey Him before being saved. How could we possibly love Him before being saved? We obey Him because we love Him because He first loved us. We obey Him so that we can know intimately His very joy!! John 15:11. By the way, did you realize that Jesus was able to obey the Father because of the work the Father was doing in Him? John 14:10. Jesus only boasted in the Father. We can only boast in Him. Our ability to obey, our wisdom, our fruits are because of God's Spirit at work in all who are His. 2 Thes 2:13, 1 Cor 2:6-16; Romans 8. Our salvation is assured and sealed by God's Spirit, Ephesians 1.
Throughout Scripture, those who obeyed did so out of love and reverence for God through FAITH in Him. Your example of Noah is a misread and misunderstanding of what I have attempted to communicate. Noah was ALREADY considered righteous by God before he responded with obedience. He responded because He trusted God - not in order to be saved, because he already was saved, considered righteous. Noah's example is for Christians not unbelievers!! Take your eyes off of you and onto Christ and His obedience and your subsequent obedience and devotion will come from a deep love for all that He has done for you, not what you are trying to do for Him.
Take care, Todd.
Steve
Maybe the question was:
"Are unbaptized believers who are otherwise unanymously determined to be saved (clearly repented, obvious or not so obvious changed heart, filled to the brim with the Holy Spirit, speaks in tongues with the best of them, picks up venemous snakes and drinks poison, great guy with changed present from horrible past, etc.) lost BECAUSE they have not been immersed in water?"
Hah-hah. It is to laugh.
Anyone, wet or dry or damp-around-the-edges, is lost or saved, damned or redeemed, due to their condition of being in Christ or not. Their location of being in Christ or not.
I contend that there will have been some things that happened along the way for a person who now finds himself "saved". He will have understood in some way that he needed what Jesus did for him. He will have resolved to turn his life toward or add his life to Christ's life -- and he will have reported to Jesus for that effect.
He will also have submitted to joining Jesus in His death and burial and resurrection by submitting to immersion.
Am I saying that anyone who has not experienced those things I mentioned is lost? Not exactly -- because I am not the arbiter of that decision, am I? What I am saying is that I have my doubts about your final eternal outcome if you die outside of Christ. And that the immersion is one part of that whole picture, that complete image, of the saved person in this life, as I understand it from Scripture.
You might as well ask "Are Unrepentant Believers Lost?" or "Are People Who Wouldn't Know Jesus From Attila the Hun Lost?". All certainly post-provoking questions, but all still boil down to this:
It's not the absence of baptism that damns you -- it's the absence of the Messiah.
So, for me, the question doesn't revolve around nit-pickiness or stuff some dude in this time thought he understood from Scripture. It revolves around what a redeemed child of God looks like. And yes, I do believe, from Scripture, that said redeemed child of God will have been immersed into Christ. In water. For-unto-because of the forgiveness of sins, and/or because it was good enough for Jesus, and/or because Paul explained that joining Jesus in His death = joining Him in His resurrection.
All sorts of aspects and reasons to it -- but it will be there, baptism. If you don't think so that's between God and you -- but I will not be too shy to tell you that you ought to do it.
The question is not biblical. Biblically, there is no such thing as an unbaptized believer in the New Testament. The question isn't answered in the bible at all. We will have to leave it up to God. I don't know whether someone who is unbaptized is ignorant or defiant.
: janine Thu Mar 27, 2008 - 21:26:11
It's not the absence of baptism that damns you -- it's the absence of the Messiah.
::amen::
:surfing:
Now let's all go get in the water with the Messiah.
: segell Sat Feb 15, 2003 - 11:56:00
Todd
Please, please listen to what I am trying to communicate. I am talking about SALVATION not the essential need to obey God's teachings AS A CHRISTIAN!! This is a fine distinction, I know - but please try and join me in at least acknowledging the distinction. We will continue discussing apples and oranges otherwise.
I say this with great respect. From Scripture I believe the view that your obedience in any way merits God's grace is in error and spiritually dangersous. It places the focus on the person and what he needs to do and not on the Lord Jesus Christ and ALL that He has provided by HIS obedience - even unto death.
You have convinced yourself, beyond all logical discusssion to the contrary, that to believe or to have faith does not constitute doing. I do think that perhaps you perceive faith much like instinct. For some it is just there and that is your concept of Grace. And that is the basis for salvation. That is the clear message that runs through all of your discussions in this area.
: James Rondon Fri Mar 28, 2008 - 02:51:25
: janine Thu Mar 27, 2008 - 21:26:11
It's not the absence of baptism that damns you -- it's the absence of the Messiah.
::amen::
That does put it in the correct light.
But some would argue that the Messiah must be "put on" in Baptism.
: Jaime Fri Mar 28, 2008 - 08:49:07
But some would argue that the Messiah must be "put on" in Baptism.
Some, as in Paul the Apostle?
: jmg3rd Fri Mar 28, 2008 - 08:50:30
: Jaime Fri Mar 28, 2008 - 08:49:07
But some would argue that the Messiah must be "put on" in Baptism.
Some, as in Paul the Apostle?
That pesky Paul. He didn't mean it the way it sounds (or at least how it was written there to the old colossians - the prereformation colossians anyway)
: janine Fri Mar 28, 2008 - 07:44:21
:surfing:
Now let's all go get in the water with the Messiah.
The Messiah's not in the water.
: jmg3rd Fri Mar 28, 2008 - 08:50:30
: Jaime Fri Mar 28, 2008 - 08:49:07
But some would argue that the Messiah must be "put on" in Baptism.
Some, as in Paul the Apostle?
Is that what he was talking about in Romans 13:14?
: James Rondon Fri Mar 28, 2008 - 14:40:28
: janine Fri Mar 28, 2008 - 07:44:21
:surfing:
Now let's all go get in the water with the Messiah.
The Messiah's not in the water.
Apparently He is everywhere
but the water.
I don't understand your point...
Even so, getting back to your earlier post, please tell me why I need "to go get in the water"?
: jmg3rd Fri Mar 28, 2008 - 08:50:30
: Jaime Fri Mar 28, 2008 - 08:49:07
But some would argue that the Messiah must be "put on" in Baptism.
Some, as in Paul the Apostle?
Galatians 3:27
Interestingly enough, that was not Paul's argument in that passage.
Seeing as how I didn't even make an argument, that's an interesting response.
Read the whole post, including the quotes.
He didn't make an argument in that quote either. Jaime did mention that some would argue that Christ is put on in baptism. I simply had a verse come to mind by Paul that references that Christ is "put on" in baptism (whether or not Jaime had that passage in mind I dunno...waiting for him to clarify). That Paul makes the statement while making a different arguement doesn't negate that Paul apparently believed, and expected the Galatian recipients of the letter to realize, that they ("they" being, according to Paul's statements, the baptized) had "put on Christ."
James, are you saying Galations 3:27 doesn't say we put on Christ at baptism?
ASV
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ.
CEV
Gal 3:27 And when you were baptized, it was as though you had put on Christ in the same way you put on new clothes.
ISV
Gal 3:27 Indeed, all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ
Message
Gal 3:27 Your baptism in Christ was not just washing you up for a fresh start. It also involved dressing you in an adult faith wardrobe--Christ's life, the fulfillment of God's original promise.
How would one describe him or herself naked of Christ?
I'm going to rearrange the order of the posts from the last couple of days so they'll match the rest of the thread. ::help::
: Jaime Fri Mar 28, 2008 - 21:46:31
James, are you saying Galations 3:27 doesn't say we put on Christ at baptism?
Jaime: "But some would argue that the Messiah must be 'put on' in Baptism."
jmg3rd: "Some, as in Paul the Apostle?"
jmg3rd: "Galatians 3:27"
James Rondon: "Interestingly enough, that was not Paul's argument in that passage."
("that" being "the Messiah must be 'put on' in baptism")
Am I missing something James? Wasn't Paul simply saying in Gal. 3:27, that we put on Christ the Messiah in Baptism? I don't understand your replies, sorry.
Is the word "must" the rub?
I concede he didn't say must, but he did say that all who were baptised DID put on Christ.
Galatians 3:27 does not say "the Messiah must be 'put on' in baptism".
Is "must" the word that is causing the disagreement? The "must" isn't in the bible.
: Jaime Fri Mar 28, 2008 - 21:46:31
James, are you saying Galations 3:27 doesn't say we put on Christ at baptism?
ASV
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ.
CEV
Gal 3:27 And when you were baptized, it was as though you had put on Christ in the same way you put on new clothes.
ISV
Gal 3:27 Indeed, all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ
Message
Gal 3:27 Your baptism in Christ was not just washing you up for a fresh start. It also involved dressing you in an adult faith wardrobe--Christ's life, the fulfillment of God's original promise.
How would one describe him or herself naked of Christ?
You are assuming folks believe this to be talking about water baptism. Just sayin'.
Okaaaaaaay............should we put on Christ...............in Baptism..........or another way? Or is there another way?
: Gary Fri Mar 28, 2008 - 22:09:40
: Jaime Fri Mar 28, 2008 - 21:46:31
James, are you saying Galations 3:27 doesn't say we put on Christ at baptism?
ASV
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ.
CEV
Gal 3:27 And when you were baptized, it was as though you had put on Christ in the same way you put on new clothes.
ISV
Gal 3:27 Indeed, all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ
Message
Gal 3:27 Your baptism in Christ was not just washing you up for a fresh start. It also involved dressing you in an adult faith wardrobe--Christ's life, the fulfillment of God's original promise.
How would one describe him or herself naked of Christ?
You are assuming folks believe this to be talking about water baptism. Just sayin'.
Yes, but I realize the other point of view must assume that it does not. Hence the conundrum!
: Jaime Fri Mar 28, 2008 - 22:12:43
: Gary Fri Mar 28, 2008 - 22:09:40
: Jaime Fri Mar 28, 2008 - 21:46:31
James, are you saying Galations 3:27 doesn't say we put on Christ at baptism?
ASV
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ.
CEV
Gal 3:27 And when you were baptized, it was as though you had put on Christ in the same way you put on new clothes.
ISV
Gal 3:27 Indeed, all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ
Message
Gal 3:27 Your baptism in Christ was not just washing you up for a fresh start. It also involved dressing you in an adult faith wardrobe--Christ's life, the fulfillment of God's original promise.
How would one describe him or herself naked of Christ?
You are assuming folks believe this to be talking about water baptism. Just sayin'.
Yes, but I realize the other point of view must assume that it does not. Hence the conundrum!
Other folks would say this is not water baptism. Emphasis on water.
: Gary Fri Mar 28, 2008 - 22:21:57
: Jaime Fri Mar 28, 2008 - 22:12:43
: Gary Fri Mar 28, 2008 - 22:09:40
: Jaime Fri Mar 28, 2008 - 21:46:31
James, are you saying Galations 3:27 doesn't say we put on Christ at baptism?
ASV
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ.
CEV
Gal 3:27 And when you were baptized, it was as though you had put on Christ in the same way you put on new clothes.
ISV
Gal 3:27 Indeed, all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ
Message
Gal 3:27 Your baptism in Christ was not just washing you up for a fresh start. It also involved dressing you in an adult faith wardrobe--Christ's life, the fulfillment of God's original promise.
How would one describe him or herself naked of Christ?
You are assuming folks believe this to be talking about water baptism. Just sayin'.
Yes, but I realize the other point of view must assume that it does not. Hence the conundrum!
Other folks would say this is not water baptism. Emphasis on water.
I realize that. So basically this is the pivotal verse in the entire debate.
: Jaime Fri Mar 28, 2008 - 22:25:51
: Gary Fri Mar 28, 2008 - 22:21:57
: Jaime Fri Mar 28, 2008 - 22:12:43
: Gary Fri Mar 28, 2008 - 22:09:40
: Jaime Fri Mar 28, 2008 - 21:46:31
James, are you saying Galations 3:27 doesn't say we put on Christ at baptism?
ASV
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ.
CEV
Gal 3:27 And when you were baptized, it was as though you had put on Christ in the same way you put on new clothes.
ISV
Gal 3:27 Indeed, all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ
Message
Gal 3:27 Your baptism in Christ was not just washing you up for a fresh start. It also involved dressing you in an adult faith wardrobe--Christ's life, the fulfillment of God's original promise.
How would one describe him or herself naked of Christ?
You are assuming folks believe this to be talking about water baptism. Just sayin'.
Yes, but I realize the other point of view must assume that it does not. Hence the conundrum!
Other folks would say this is not water baptism. Emphasis on water.
I realize that. So basically this is the pivotal verse in the entire debate.
One among many. If one believes that Holy Spirit baptism which happens at the point of faith is what is being referred to in this verse, than flinging Gal. 3:27 at them as a proof of water baptism isn't going to fly. You are talking in different languages.
: Jaime Fri Mar 28, 2008 - 22:11:41
Okaaaaaaay............should we put on Christ...............in Baptism..........
The aforementioned verse in Galatians doesn't say. Even so, an answer of "yes" is a reasonable inference.
: Jaime Fri Mar 28, 2008 - 22:11:41
Or is there another way?
See Romans 13:14.
: janine Fri Mar 28, 2008 - 19:42:55
: James Rondon Fri Mar 28, 2008 - 14:40:28
: janine Fri Mar 28, 2008 - 07:44:21
:surfing:
Now let's all go get in the water with the Messiah.
The Messiah's not in the water.
Apparently He is everywhere but the water.
Clear point!
: zoonance Sat Mar 29, 2008 - 12:44:12
: janine Fri Mar 28, 2008 - 19:42:55
: James Rondon Fri Mar 28, 2008 - 14:40:28
: janine Fri Mar 28, 2008 - 07:44:21
:surfing:
Now let's all go get in the water with the Messiah.
The Messiah's not in the water.
Apparently He is everywhere but the water.
Clear point!
In fact the more I think about it: The number of individuals that would believe (and teach) that Jesus could not or would not be in the waters of baptism is inconceivable to even the most cursory of scripture reading.
: zoonance Sat Mar 29, 2008 - 12:52:11
: zoonance Sat Mar 29, 2008 - 12:44:12
: janine Fri Mar 28, 2008 - 19:42:55
: James Rondon Fri Mar 28, 2008 - 14:40:28
: janine Fri Mar 28, 2008 - 07:44:21
:surfing:
Now let's all go get in the water with the Messiah.
The Messiah's not in the water.
Apparently He is everywhere but the water.
Clear point!
In fact the more I think about it: The number of individuals that would believe (and teach) that Jesus could not or would not be in the waters of baptism is inconceivable to even the most cursory of scripture reading.
So, does that mean you're going to go get into the water with the Messiah, as Janine suggested we all do? If not, why not?
Why would anyone want to? Those reasons could apply to me and you, I suppose.
A Beleiver in Jesus his holy and precious word would be baptized------.unless of course he was killed or paralilized or mentaly impared before he got the chance .
a unbeliever would not want christian baptism only a believer would.
yes unbelievers are lost
Luke 7:30
30But the Pharisees and experts in the law rejected God's purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.)
John 3:5-6
5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
Ephesians 4:5
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
Baptism is one of those difficult things though...
Someone had to be responsible for Baptizing Simon Magnus. (I know I wouldn't have wanted to be the one who did that one)
The Pharisees and Experts in the Law/Grammitons wanted to be Baptized by John but John the Baptist refused them all...
The Theif on the Cross never got a chance to be Baptized....but he went to Heaven just the same.
The Baptism of old doesn't mean the same as it used to be. Being baptized used to mean that you were going to become apostacised from your family and friends and lose your job and become a member of a non-political religious group (when all the others were about political power)
It meant that you were going to have the right to handle scripture and quote it...and all your friends were going to look at you as if you were committing the worlds biggest sin for doing so. So even trying to explain it to them was going to be very very difficult.
Today it is done in front of a group of believers with no fear or possibility of being stoned, harrassed, or persecuted...most usually clap and applaud. BIG DIFFERENCE
: JohnDB Sun Aug 30, 2009 - 14:19:20
Baptism is one of those difficult things though...
Someone had to be responsible for Baptizing Simon Magnus. (I know I wouldn't have wanted to be the one who did that one)
The Pharisees and Experts in the Law/Grammitons wanted to be Baptized by John but John the Baptist refused them all...
The Theif on the Cross never got a chance to be Baptized....but he went to Heaven just the same.
The Baptism of old doesn't mean the same as it used to be. Being baptized used to mean that you were going to become apostacised from your family and friends and lose your job and become a member of a non-political religious group (when all the others were about political power)
It meant that you were going to have the right to handle scripture and quote it...and all your friends were going to look at you as if you were committing the worlds biggest sin for doing so. So even trying to explain it to them was going to be very very difficult.
Today it is done in front of a group of believers with no fear or possibility of being stoned, harrassed, or persecuted...most usually clap and applaud. BIG DIFFERENCE
It is interesting that you mention the response from the community. Yes if one is converted to Christ and obeys the command from Jesus to be immersed in water for remission of sins and then only associates with those with whom he has been added it may be different from the 1st century. However if one who has put on Christ encounters his former associations and friends who may not accept the command of baptism into Christ as the Bible teaches he soon find himself standing alone and probably not invited to join them with the same fervor as before. I have experienced this harassment as a result of trying to share the gospel as it was preached in the beginning as the apostles went and declared repentance and remission of sins in the name of Jesus Christ. Not many will listen and not a few will oppose the simple truth as presented in the Bible.
I hope those who seek the truth will search their heart and search the Scripture to see if what they hear on this forum is true. It seems there are many confusing ideas presented here. What men believe and do is not the final answer. The final answer is and will always be What did Jesus want for us to believe and do as his servants. If he is Lord. Rom 6:17-18.
Thanks, Donald Rby
I believe that in these modern days.. being baptised is a one way ticket to hell. (you are submitting yourself to the old covenant and will be judged by it).
Think about it.. since Jesus paid the price for our sins, why would we need to do something else to do what he already did for those that believe.
The only thing baptism did was a ritual cleansing for an old covenant Jew (who was living under the law and subject to it) which basically completed the old covenant for them and brought them into the new covenant. So if you were never under the old covenant to begin with.. then why subject yourself to it?
: Jaime Fri Mar 28, 2008 - 22:25:51
: Gary Fri Mar 28, 2008 - 22:21:57
: Jaime Fri Mar 28, 2008 - 22:12:43
: Gary Fri Mar 28, 2008 - 22:09:40
: Jaime Fri Mar 28, 2008 - 21:46:31
James, are you saying Galations 3:27 doesn't say we put on Christ at baptism?
ASV
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ.
CEV
Gal 3:27 And when you were baptized, it was as though you had put on Christ in the same way you put on new clothes.
ISV
Gal 3:27 Indeed, all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ
Message
Gal 3:27 Your baptism in Christ was not just washing you up for a fresh start. It also involved dressing you in an adult faith wardrobe--Christ's life, the fulfillment of God's original promise.
How would one describe him or herself naked of Christ?
You are assuming folks believe this to be talking about water baptism. Just sayin'.
Yes, but I realize the other point of view must assume that it does not. Hence the conundrum!
Other folks would say this is not water baptism. Emphasis on water.
I realize that. So basically this is the pivotal verse in the entire debate.
This is actually a problem only if we want to make the text more obscure than it is. We have a Jewish guy, who was himself baptized, and who baptized others, referring to baptism. We make this difficult for ourselves because we have lost the ability to understand faith accurately and we seek to tease it into parts that the early church - and the Apostles - did not and would not understand the purpose of.
It's not all that hard to figure out what this Jewish guy is talking about.
Now, that conclusion does not necessarily answer the question in this thread. It simply makes clear that to which the writer refers.
.
From the number of post you have on other subject you are not new to these forums and your question is a good one if you are seriously seek Jesus by faith. Since you are calling yourself a Christian you most likely think that you are serving Jesus as Lord.
As you know there are differing answers from men on the question of baptism. The only one that matters is the one that pleases God through Jesus by faith. (based on Heb 11:1-6).
I will tell you that this question is common and it is not possible for infant sprinkling and adult believer immersion both be true. Since the disciples taught and baptized people in obedience to Jesus, we should look to their teaching and practice. To begin with Acts 8:27-39 Phillip met a man who was seeking to learn more and Phillip preached unto him Jesus. The Ethiopian did not know Jesus nor who the Prophet Isaiah spoke of when he describe his suffering. So as they traveled Phillip told him enough that he went on his way rejoicing. We do not know what he told him, but we do know it incluced baptism as the man requested immersion. "38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing." Herein is describe the action of baptism. Not mere sprinkling, but immersion as the word baptism means immersion.
Who was immersed? A man who had heard Jesus preached and one who believed what he heard. Why was he immersed? He was obeying the command that was included in the preaching that he heard. See also Acts 2:38, Matthew 28:18-20.
Romans 6 contains a description of baptism as a death to sin, burial, and a resurrection unto a new life. This indicates baptism is a line of demarcation between one dead in sin and one alive in the Spirit. The real subject of Romans 6 is repentance as we are no longer dead when we turn to Christ we then begin a new walk in grace as we turn away from serving sin to serving righteousness. "17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." Rom 6.
Here it is clear that before we obey the teaching of the word of God we are lost in sin and after we obey we are made free from sin. That is why Peter told the first gospel hearers to repent and be baptized for remission of sins. They believed that Jesus who they Crucified was Lord as they heard the eye witness testimony of His resurrection and they were told then they need to change their heart about sin and be immersed in the name of Jesus Christ.
So in answer to your question, Yes you should be immersed according to the teaching of Jesus and his apostles. No, infant sprinkling is not found in the Bible and is not the teaching of Jesus. So do not delay find someone who will answer your questions and provide the needed response to follow Jesus as Lord. If you need more assistance please write to me and I will find you someone to help you where ever you are.
Donald Raby efraby AT att.net put baptism in the suject line.
: Tantor Mon Aug 31, 2009 - 21:44:29
I believe that in these modern days.. being baptised is a one way ticket to hell.
What a completely bizarre thing to say.
: Tantor Mon Aug 31, 2009 - 21:44:29The only thing baptism did was a ritual cleansing for an old covenant Jew (who was living under the law and subject to it) which basically completed the old covenant for them and brought them into the new covenant. So if you were never under the old covenant to begin with.. then why subject yourself to it?
For the same reason that the Gentile Cornelius and other Gentiles who were never under the old covenant to begin with subjected themselves to it.
You're way out in left field on this one. Your beliefs are historically and scripturally indefensible and baseless.
Yes... Judiasm was a problem back them.. the Jewish christians were losing their exclusive identity and were struggling with how to admit gentiles into the new fledgling christian faith.
Besides, John the baptism foretold that water baptism was only a temporary rite... did he lie? When we become Christians now, we are baptized with fire and the Holy Spirit.. not water.
: Tantor Wed Sep 02, 2009 - 20:49:03
Yes... Judiasm was a problem back them.. the Jewish christians were losing their exclusive identity and were struggling with how to admit gentiles into the new fledgling christian faith.
Besides, John the baptism foretold that water baptism was only a temporary rite... did he lie? When we become Christians now, we are baptized with fire and the Holy Spirit.. not water.
What is rather unique about this whole Baptism is that this word "baptism" came from the Septuagent. (Greek translation of the Torah)
This was the word used from Joseph's brothers when they
dipped his "Coat of many colors"/Seamless coat in the blood of one of the animals. Thus effectively dyeing the coat with blood.
And the fire and water thingy...from the test given to spoils of war by Moses...if it could survive washing in water and the fire...then it could be kept. Otherwise...nope.
Baptize did not originate with the LXX. The Hebrews who translated the OT text into Greek chose a greek word to describe what happened to Joseph's coat. Dipped is immersed and does carry the meaning of to dye in the original. The usage of the word in English is confused by those who transliterated the word rather than translating it as immerse. Sprinkling is not immersion.
The New Testament writers (apostles and prophets) used the word in every context to indicate an immersion or complete burial or overwhelming in the element whether it be fire, water, spirit, or cloud. Immersion is affirmed in John's Baptism when he was doing so where there was much water and fully described in Acts 8:27-37 in the baptism of the Ethiopian.
Fire and Spirit immersion are two elements described by John in Matt 3:11. In one sprit would be good in the other fire is not good as it refers to eternal fire of hell. Baptism of repentance for remission of sins was introduced by John and Jesus commanded the apostles to take that action of immersion in His name (authority) as the initiatory obedience for believers in the gospel preached. Baptism had nothing to do with Judaism or Judaizers who bound the Law with circumcision.
Being born again of water and spirit is the conversion of a sinner to salvation in Christ where one is cleansed by his blood and receives every spiritual blessing. Gal 3:26-27 and Romans 6:3-5 show clearly that one is immersed into Christ. Once dead, buried and raised to walk in newness of life having put on Christ. Sincerely, Donald Raby
: Donald Raby Thu Sep 03, 2009 - 17:50:15
Baptize did not originate with the LXX. The Hebrews who translated the OT text into Greek chose a greek word to describe what happened to Joseph's coat. Dipped is immersed and does carry the meaning of to dye in the original. The usage of the word in English is confused by those who transliterated the word rather than translating it as immerse. Sprinkling is not immersion.
The New Testament writers (apostles and prophets) used the word in every context to indicate an immersion or complete burial or overwhelming in the element whether it be fire, water, spirit, or cloud. Immersion is affirmed in John's Baptism when he was doing so where there was much water and fully described in Acts 8:27-37 in the baptism of the Ethiopian.
Fire and Spirit immersion are two elements described by John in Matt 3:11. In one sprit would be good in the other fire is not good as it refers to eternal fire of hell. Baptism of repentance for remission of sins was introduced by John and Jesus commanded the apostles to take that action of immersion in His name (authority) as the initiatory obedience for believers in the gospel preached. Baptism had nothing to do with Judaism or Judaizers who bound the Law with circumcision.
Being born again of water and spirit is the conversion of a sinner to salvation in Christ where one is cleansed by his blood and receives every spiritual blessing. Gal 3:26-27 and Romans 6:3-5 show clearly that one is immersed into Christ. Once dead, buried and raised to walk in newness of life having put on Christ. Sincerely, Donald Raby
When Baptisms are performed at many churchs the Preacher always says, "Dead in your sins", (while dunking them) and then raised to walk in a newness of life (while bringing them up out of the water)
Or something to that effect.
And Baptize does seem to fit in Both places doesn't it... ::lookaround:: ::smile::
Both what happened to Joseph's coat (he became dead to Jacob when it was shown to him) and then found alive later....all rich and important.
: Tantor Wed Sep 02, 2009 - 20:49:03
Yes... Judiasm was a problem back them.. the Jewish christians were losing their exclusive identity and were struggling with how to admit gentiles into the new fledgling christian faith.
Besides, John the baptism foretold that water baptism was only a temporary rite... did he lie?
No, John didn't lie... because that isn't what he said.
: Tantor Wed Sep 02, 2009 - 20:49:03When we become Christians now, we are baptized with fire and the Holy Spirit.. not water.
That's a twisting of what John said. For one who derides 21st century Americans reading and interpreting Scripture, you sure do a number from a twisted rendering of one verse, contradicting all other scriptures on baptism's place in the New Testament.
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php/topic,24063.msg685368/topicseen.html#msg685368
Thought this should go here as well.
John 3:16 (no water required) ::smile::
::announcment::here is two verses wrritten about some ---------"unbaptized believers in their own way".
Luke 7:30
30But the Pharisees and experts in the law rejected God's purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.
BE SURE TO read the before and after texts OF JOHN 3:5-7 SO YOU KNOW its talking about "water baptism"
John 3:5-7
5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.
Acts 2:38-39
======================================================================
38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."
Ephesians 5:25-27
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.
Titus3:5-7
Titus 3:5-7
5he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. ::clappingoverhead::
The Bible says there is ONE baptism. I believe that baptism is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I believe water baptism was temporary...a physical shadow of the true that was to come after Christ's death and resurrection. Where the Bible says you must be born of the water and the Spirit, the word "water" implies the mother's womb. So, it is saying that it is not enough to be born of the physical womb, but you must be born of the Spirit.
I cannot help but rejoice in the grace of God, and the love of Jesus, every time I think of it! Salvation IS a personal "knowing" that nobody can take away from me! Woo-hoo!
water might imply womb, but it would be odd to tell a physically born man that he as to be physically born... That explanation always sounds like a stretch in order to justify a stand.
My point was that the verse is not saying that you have to be baptized in water AND in the Spirit. The verse is making a distinction between physical birth and spiritual birth. And, there is only ONE baptism, which is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I have been baptized in the Holy Spirit and in water (total immersion), but after much study, I changed my mind regarding water baptism.
Baptism is important in a life of Christian but it is not necessary for salvation. It publicly symbolizes that your sins were washed away by putting your faith in Jesus Christ.
{edited to remove link per forum rule 3.3}
"necessary for salvation" is where this discussion always gets hung up. The bottom line is, though, that to be an obedient and faithful disciple of Jesus, you must be baptized. He commanded it. Therefore, an unbaptized disciple, refusing to be baptized, is by definition disobedient. Why would a believer choose to stay in such a state?
"Only he who believes is obedient and only he who is obedient believes."
~ Dietrich Bonhoeffer
: James. Tue May 11, 2010 - 08:02:00
"necessary for salvation" is where this discussion always gets hung up. The bottom line is, though, that to be an obedient and faithful disciple of Jesus, you must be baptized. He commanded it. Therefore, an unbaptized disciple, refusing to be baptized, is by definition disobedient. Why would a believer choose to stay in such a state?
"Only he who believes is obedient and only he who is obedient believes.
http://www.wels.net/streams/video/content/holy-spirit-works-through-baptism
: Joker2 Sun Sep 06, 2009 - 22:44:43
John 3:16 (no water required) ::smile::
::clappingoverhead:: Whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. With the heart man believes unto righteouness with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Phillph wouldn't baptize someone unless they believe with all their heart that Jesus is the son of God, which came from his confession of faith.
Grace to all.
My dad was a "Believer" for 31 hours before he died. He was not baptized. But, I know without a shadow of a doubt that he was indeed saved and will be in Heaven. I was there when he got saved. So no, unbaptized believers are not lost.
I know in 9 pages of post this has been said, but I'll go ahead and mention it again... Because it's good stuff.... Jesus did not tell the thief on the cross that he had to get down and be baptized to go to Heaven. He believed Jesus was the Messiah and asked Jesus to remember him. The Savior told him "YES".
Kensington,
that's great that your dad found peace with God before he passed away. I've heard one or two similar stories, one of a friend's dad, who changed once he put his trust in Christ, before his death.
Kensington, I too believe your Dad was saved, BUT his case does not excuse people that have the opportunity and the possibility to be baptized. Refusal to be baptized upon belief, confession and repentence is disobedience. The exceptions doesn't mean the rule doesn't exist. God is not going to condemn a quadraplegic stranded alone in the Sahara that comes to Jesus separated from a baptisty by a pit of King Cobras . But God will wonder about the heart of a healthy 20 year old that is intent on ignoring the command of water baptism because John 3:16 didn't mention it. I know several of those folks. There are plenty of other scriptures to convict a person to be pretty much immediately baptized if at all possible. Hence Mark 16:16. Even considering the point of salvation is prior to baptism, this scripture and many others indicate that the first century believers were water baptized as soon as possible. The thief on the cross does not nullify or amend this understanding. It is as your dad's case, an exception, made by the Lord himself by the way. And prior to Christ's command to be baptized.
John 1:12 But as many as received him,
to them gave he power to become the sons of God,
even to them that believe on his name:
Believe is: Credo to commit or consign something to one for preservation, protection
After Pentecost:
Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word
were baptized:
and the same day there were added unto them
about three thousand souls
Those being saved at baptism were added to the Church by Christ: it's His move.
There is no one added to the church without baptism.
Since "church" is for DISCIPLES (Students) it was not possible for the thief to be asking for what salvation meant.
Credo to commit or consign something to one for preservation, protection
We don't get safe answers to teach others their duty from I-Think-So chapter one.
Pl. Trin. 4.2 And would he have been such a fool
as to entrust to me a thousand Philippean pieces,
which gold he bade me carry to his son,
and to his friend Callicles,
to whom he said that he had entrusted his affairs?
Would he have entrusted them to me if he had not known me, and I him, very intimately?...
A person, that I know not who he is,
and have never beheld him with my eyes before this day,
should I be entrusting gold to him?
A man, to whom, if his life were at stake,
I would not entrust a dump of lead. .
Trusting in your own level of "believing" something is NOT trust: never trust anyone who encourages you to tamper with the Word as it has been delivered to us and believed for all of these years.
The FACT is that while "sprinkling" got too common, there is NO exception to the views of the Church of Christ until after the Reformation. Then, those who said "baptism does not save" quickly added "without faith."
While misunderstood, Zwingli mingled "justification" and "salvation" for the first time in history. He said that "all of the doctors before him were wrong." He claimed to have invented "faith only" and Luther agreed that he DID invent faith only.
Sola Fide to Martin Luther meant Sola Scriptura and since you couldn't have faith without believing what Scripture says about baptism, salvation is Sola Baptisma. Martin Luther's paper on adult baptism could be used by most in the Church of Christ.
John Calvin wrote a long piece on baptism and listed many of the things we receive because promised as a result of being baptized. He denied that baptism was just a symbol although baptism is the outward commanded act which invites Christ to give us A holy spirit or A good conscience or a conscience sprinkled an UNholy spirit.
Are teachers of "don't need to be baptized" false teachers? Are the sheep starving to death from the dry pastures?
Tertullian on the Necessirty of Baptism c155-220
Chapter I.-Introduction. Origin of the Treatise.
Happy is our 1 sacrament Of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life!
A treatise on this matter will not be superfluous; instructing not only such as are just becoming formed (in the faith), but them who, content with having simply believed, without full examination of the grounds 2 of the traditions, carry (in mind), through ignorance, an untried though probable faith.
The consequence is, that a viper of the Cainite heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism.
Which is quite in accordance with nature; for vipers and asps and basilisks themselves generally do affect arid and waterless places.
But we, little fishes, after the example of our Icqus 3 Jesus Christ, are born in water, nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding in water; so that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, 4 knew full well how to kill the little fishes, by taking them away from the water!
Chapter II.-The Very Simplicity of God's Means of Working, a Stumbling-Block to the Carnal Mind.
Well, but how great is the force of perversity for so shaking the faith or entirely preventing its reception, that it impugns it on the very principles of which the faith consists!
There is absolutely nothing which makes men's minds more obdurate than the simplicity of the divine works which are visible in the act, when compared with the grandeur which is promised thereto in the effect; so that from the very fact, that with so great simplicity, without pomp, without any considerable novelty of preparation,
finally, without expense, a man is dipped in water,
and amid the utterance of some few words, is sprinkled, and then rises again,
not much (or not at all) the cleaner,
the consequent attainment of eternity
is esteemed the more incredible.
I am a deceiver if, on the contrary, it is not from their circumstance, and preparation, and expense, that idols' solemnities or mysteries get their credit and authority built up.
Oh, miserable incredulity, which quite deniest to God His own properties, simplicity and power! What then? Is it not wonderful, too, that death should be washed away by bathing?
The article is very well written and thought out. I wish that I could thank the author! I have come to many of the same conclusions so I am sharing the link to "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?" with others. Brother Edward Fudge and David Lawrence (teachers in the churches of Christ) have come to similar views. Hopefully many saints will take the time to carefully read the article -even if they are challenged and have to rethink so much of what they have been taught and sincerely believed through the years.
::smile::
Responding to thread title.NOT NECESSARILY
The infamous and often annoying question to answer a question
Are Common Law Married Couples who haven't had an official wedding ceremony married?
No they are not lost.
The blood saves not the water. Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit and becomes your Advocate to God when you choose to make Him your Saviour.
After you make Him your Saviour He asks you to do many things. Getting baptised is first on His list.
It troubled me for years that this particular group that call themselves the obedient of the Lord and teach water baptism to a great degree seem to also be void of the Holy Spirit and therefore headed to hell. These people seem to be trying to follow the bible more then most anyone else, their slogan was, we speak when the bible speaks and we are silent when the bible is silent. So I thought, how could these people miss it when others who are not so careful are finding God?
After years of wondering and thinking the answer came to me, in order for God to save us the one thing we absolutely have to have is faith in the Person of Jesus Christ, exclusive faith in Christ and Christ alone, like the thief on the cross. All he could trust in was Jesus Christ, either that was enough or he was lost.
I came to realize that in their zeal to be correct in all things that they were actually teaching faith in water baptism, because the individuals were exercising faith in water baptism rather than exclusive faith in Christ, they were not being accepted by God. So they have there water baptism and keeping of rules, but no Holy Spirit and therefore no salvation.