This consideration on the subject of the Soul hopes to be a very simple review of the word soul and how it is used in the Bible.
Discussion thread which motivated this thread can be read here
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/what-does-the-dividing-of-spirit-soul-and-body-look-like-pictorally/?PHPSESSID=790289897fe22b3f40483f659213850c
Firstly, it is important I put forth the Bible teaching of Soul in light of the above thread and its apparent confusion. It is not conceivable that man has an 'immortal soul' or any immortal element within him naturally for reason explored below.
And by naturally I mean within our flesh and blood nature - - has no good thing.
For I (Paul) know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. (Romans 7:18)
Here Paul is very particular to focus our attention on the flesh nature knowing that inherently within that nature is no good thing. He goes on to define why our nature is absent of any good thing, because a law works within its mortal frame that makes it bias toward sin and death.
We hope to attempt to clear up any confusion surrounding the word 'soul' in this study. While I expect many will interject and I believe this is valuable I would ask that you always provide Bible verses to support your understanding. In doing this we will have a common point of reference to work from.
And God is never wrong ::smile::
Hebrew = Nephesh
Greek = Psuche
Translated as such:
• Body
• Breath
• Creature
• Heart
• Mind
• Person
• Himself
Those reading this will recall how the soul of an animal is no different to the soul of a person; only that the word soul will infer different meaning depending on context.
The first occurrence of Soul in the Bible (animal):
And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. (Genesis 1:20)
Life - - - - - - > Living creatures - - - - - - > Soul
The first occurrence of Soul in the Bible (Human):
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Genesis 2:7)
Soul - - - - - - > Living creature - - - - - - - -> Life
As you will see within the first two chapters of the Bible the Hebrew word Nephesh used of Life, Living Creature, Soul.
All of which bare the same meaning and context.
A living breathing creature that has life.
Therefore the soul refers to a person, animal, body, self and any aspect of the person anatomy.
I believe another member made a good point that the soul is 'you', or the summation of all the things which make up a person. In fact the translators have come a long way in better understanding this word and its use. The NIV and other versions rarely use the word 'soul', translating it instead as 'you' or 'the person'.
As we proved earlier the living creatures also are called "moving creatures...AND...every living creature" (Gen. 1:20,21).
So we find the word "creature" is 'nephesh', which is 'soul'
Also used of man in Gen. 2:7: "...and man became a living soul".
So man is a 'soul', likewise animals are 'souls' also. The only difference between mankind and animals is that man is mentally superior to them; he is created in the physical image of God (Gen. 1:26) I hope to demonstrate how this essential difference defines the use of the word soul in the Scriptures though also teaching us the natural aspects of our makeup are fundamentally no different; we each breath air, have hearts that pump blood around the body etc.
From Gen 1:26 we understand man was called / created to have dominion over the animals (carnal thinking) which of course he did not taking on the serpents mode of lustful thinking.
Now it is so that all men and women are called to know the Gospel message which at its core offers the hope of immortality (2 Tim. 1:10).
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: (2 Timothy 1:10)
Where it is said "brought life and immortality to light" THROUGH "the Gospel" is an intelligible hope based on knowledge and faith and by no means something inherent in the nature of mankind.
In terms of our fundamental nature (flesh and blood) and that all creatures die, there is no difference between man and animals.
That which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them (note the double emphasis): as the one dieth, so dieth the other...so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast...All (i.e. man and animals) go unto one place (i.e the grave); all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again" (Ecc. 3:19,20).
I will leave it here for comments - but please remember no personal taunts or derogatory remarks. If you wish to make a point please support with Scripture.
In the Masters service.
Alethos
Also an interesting note. That when a person dies its an unnatural thing to be without the body. After death one is incomplete without the body. That is why the resurrection of the body is so important. Our resurrected bodies will not be of flesh and blood for flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God. We will have a Body Like Jesus Christ does now, a spiritual body that has flesh and bone. Our earthly bodies are seeds sown to be raised and transformed.
God breathed into the flesh and it became "Nephesh Chayah" which translators inconsistently translateed.
"The soul is the whole of the person, the unity of the body, breath and mind. It is not some immaterial spiritual entity it is you, all of you, your whole being or self."- Jeff A. Benner Biblical Hebrew E-Magazine
: Delta12 Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 23:30:21
Also an interesting note. That when a person dies its an unnatural thing to be without the body. After death one is incomplete without the body. That is why the resurrection of the body is so important. Our resurrected bodies will not be of flesh and blood for flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God. We will have a Body Like Jesus Christ does now, a spiritual body that has flesh and bone. Our earthly bodies are seeds sown to be raised and transformed.
God breathed into the flesh and it became "Nephesh Chayah" which translators inconsistently translateed.
"The soul is the whole of the person, the unity of the body, breath and mind. It is not some immaterial spiritual entity it is you, all of you, your whole being or self."- Jeff A. Benner Biblical Hebrew E-Magazine
Manna!
: Lively Stone Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 23:46:04
: Delta12 Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 23:30:21
Also an interesting note. That when a person dies its an unnatural thing to be without the body. After death one is incomplete without the body. That is why the resurrection of the body is so important. Our resurrected bodies will not be of flesh and blood for flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God. We will have a Body Like Jesus Christ does now, a spiritual body that has flesh and bone. Our earthly bodies are seeds sown to be raised and transformed.
God breathed into the flesh and it became "Nephesh Chayah" which translators inconsistently translateed.
"The soul is the whole of the person, the unity of the body, breath and mind. It is not some immaterial spiritual entity it is you, all of you, your whole being or self."- Jeff A. Benner Biblical Hebrew E-Magazine
Manna!
Sorry it appears our Delta believes in this "without the body" which is found where in the Bible?
: Alethos Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 23:55:13
: Lively Stone Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 23:46:04
: Delta12 Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 23:30:21
Also an interesting note. That when a person dies its an unnatural thing to be without the body. After death one is incomplete without the body. That is why the resurrection of the body is so important. Our resurrected bodies will not be of flesh and blood for flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God. We will have a Body Like Jesus Christ does now, a spiritual body that has flesh and bone. Our earthly bodies are seeds sown to be raised and transformed.
God breathed into the flesh and it became "Nephesh Chayah" which translators inconsistently translateed.
"The soul is the whole of the person, the unity of the body, breath and mind. It is not some immaterial spiritual entity it is you, all of you, your whole being or self."- Jeff A. Benner Biblical Hebrew E-Magazine
Manna!
Sorry it appears our Delta believes in this "without the body" which is found where in the Bible?
No one in heaven has a body yet. Delta is correct.
: Lively Stone Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 23:59:35
: Alethos Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 23:55:13
: Lively Stone Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 23:46:04
: Delta12 Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 23:30:21
Also an interesting note. That when a person dies its an unnatural thing to be without the body. After death one is incomplete without the body. That is why the resurrection of the body is so important. Our resurrected bodies will not be of flesh and blood for flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God. We will have a Body Like Jesus Christ does now, a spiritual body that has flesh and bone. Our earthly bodies are seeds sown to be raised and transformed.
God breathed into the flesh and it became "Nephesh Chayah" which translators inconsistently translateed.
"The soul is the whole of the person, the unity of the body, breath and mind. It is not some immaterial spiritual entity it is you, all of you, your whole being or self."- Jeff A. Benner Biblical Hebrew E-Magazine
Manna!
Sorry it appears our Delta believes in this "without the body" which is found where in the Bible?
No one in heaven has a body yet. Delta is correct.
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
(John 3:13)
::pondering::
no man hath ascended up to heaven
"Brothers (and Lively), I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he (David) both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. (Acts 2:29)
He is still there in the grave Lively.
"Dust thou art and Dust thou shalt return"
But you don't fully believe that we die do you Lively?
And the serpent said "You will not surely die."
It appears the serpents lie is still in play in the minds of the deceived.
A.
PLEASE get John 3 into context!
John 3:5-13
5 Jesus replied, "I assure you, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit. 6 Humans can reproduce only human life, but the Holy Spirit gives birth to spiritual life. 7 So don't be surprised when I say, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows wherever it wants. Just as you can hear the wind but can't tell where it comes from or where it is going, so you can't explain how people are born of the Spirit.
: Alethos Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 00:07:56
"Brothers (and Lively), I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he (David) both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. (Acts 2:29)
He is still there in the grave Lively.
"Dust thou art and Dust thou shalt return"
But you don't fully believe that we die do you Lively?
And the serpent said "You will not surely die."
It appears the serpents lie is still in play in the minds of the deceived.
A.
What do you take me for, Bubba?
My body may die before the Lord comes for me, but my spirit and soul will never die. I will walk out of this plane into another, the Kingdom where my Jesus is---seamlessly!
Seems you like to think everyone but yourself is deceived. I am wary of that type of poster.
: Lively Stone Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 00:08:08
PLEASE get John 3 into context!
John 3:5-13
5 Jesus replied, "I assure you, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit. 6 Humans can reproduce only human life, but the Holy Spirit gives birth to spiritual life. 7 So don't be surprised when I say, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows wherever it wants. Just as you can hear the wind but can't tell where it comes from or where it is going, so you can't explain how people are born of the Spirit.
: Lively Stone Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 00:10:32
: Alethos Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 00:07:56
"Brothers (and Lively), I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he (David) both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. (Acts 2:29)
He is still there in the grave Lively.
"Dust thou art and Dust thou shalt return"
But you don't fully believe that we die do you Lively?
And the serpent said "You will not surely die."
It appears the serpents lie is still in play in the minds of the deceived.
A.
What do you take me for, Bubba?
My body may die before the Lord comes for me, but my spirit and soul will never die. I will walk out of this plane into another, the Kingdom where my Jesus is---seamlessly!
Seems you like to think everyone but yourself is deceived. I am wary of that type of poster.
No pet names please ::smile::
So you dont actually die do you?
: Alethos Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 23:55:13
: Lively Stone Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 23:46:04
: Delta12 Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 23:30:21
Also an interesting note. That when a person dies its an unnatural thing to be without the body. After death one is incomplete without the body. That is why the resurrection of the body is so important. Our resurrected bodies will not be of flesh and blood for flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God. We will have a Body Like Jesus Christ does now, a spiritual body that has flesh and bone. Our earthly bodies are seeds sown to be raised and transformed.
God breathed into the flesh and it became "Nephesh Chayah" which translators inconsistently translateed.
"The soul is the whole of the person, the unity of the body, breath and mind. It is not some immaterial spiritual entity it is you, all of you, your whole being or self."- Jeff A. Benner Biblical Hebrew E-Magazine
Manna!
Sorry it appears our Delta believes in this "without the body" which is found where in the Bible?
What do you mean in this statement?
: Alethos Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 00:31:04
: Lively Stone Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 00:10:32
: Alethos Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 00:07:56
"Brothers (and Lively), I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he (David) both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. (Acts 2:29)
He is still there in the grave Lively.
"Dust thou art and Dust thou shalt return"
But you don't fully believe that we die do you Lively?
And the serpent said "You will not surely die."
It appears the serpents lie is still in play in the minds of the deceived.
A.
What do you take me for, Bubba?
My body may die before the Lord comes for me, but my spirit and soul will never die. I will walk out of this plane into another, the Kingdom where my Jesus is---seamlessly!
Seems you like to think everyone but yourself is deceived. I am wary of that type of poster.
No pet names please ::smile::
So you dont actually die do you?
My body does, but the real me doesn't.
John 8:51I tell you the truth, anyone who obeys my teaching will never die!
: Alethos Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 00:28:34
: Lively Stone Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 00:08:08
PLEASE get John 3 into context!
John 3:5-13
5 Jesus replied, "I assure you, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit. 6 Humans can reproduce only human life, but the Holy Spirit gives birth to spiritual life. 7 So don't be surprised when I say, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows wherever it wants. Just as you can hear the wind but can't tell where it comes from or where it is going, so you can't explain how people are born of the Spirit.
: Lively Stone Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 00:53:39
: Alethos Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 00:31:04
: Lively Stone Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 00:10:32
: Alethos Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 00:07:56
"Brothers (and Lively), I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he (David) both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. (Acts 2:29)
He is still there in the grave Lively.
"Dust thou art and Dust thou shalt return"
But you don't fully believe that we die do you Lively?
And the serpent said "You will not surely die."
It appears the serpents lie is still in play in the minds of the deceived.
A.
What do you take me for, Bubba?
My body may die before the Lord comes for me, but my spirit and soul will never die. I will walk out of this plane into another, the Kingdom where my Jesus is---seamlessly!
Seems you like to think everyone but yourself is deceived. I am wary of that type of poster.
No pet names please ::smile::
So you dont actually die do you?
My body does, but the real me doesn't.
John 8:51
I tell you the truth, anyone who obeys my teaching will never die!
: Delta12 Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 00:41:15
: Alethos Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 23:55:13
: Lively Stone Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 23:46:04
: Delta12 Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 23:30:21
Also an interesting note. That when a person dies its an unnatural thing to be without the body. After death one is incomplete without the body. That is why the resurrection of the body is so important. Our resurrected bodies will not be of flesh and blood for flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God. We will have a Body Like Jesus Christ does now, a spiritual body that has flesh and bone. Our earthly bodies are seeds sown to be raised and transformed.
God breathed into the flesh and it became "Nephesh Chayah" which translators inconsistently translateed.
"The soul is the whole of the person, the unity of the body, breath and mind. It is not some immaterial spiritual entity it is you, all of you, your whole being or self."- Jeff A. Benner Biblical Hebrew E-Magazine
Manna!
Sorry it appears our Delta believes in this "without the body" which is found where in the Bible?
What do you mean in this statement?
Delta,
You referred to this idea of being without the body as if you have some immortal essence in you that wafts of to God when you die.
No Scripture can be produced to prove such a thing - it's a notion born out Greek philosophy.
A.
: Alethos Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 02:31:43
: Lively Stone Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 00:53:39
: Alethos Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 00:31:04
: Lively Stone Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 00:10:32
: Alethos Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 00:07:56
"Brothers (and Lively), I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he (David) both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. (Acts 2:29)
He is still there in the grave Lively.
"Dust thou art and Dust thou shalt return"
But you don't fully believe that we die do you Lively?
And the serpent said "You will not surely die."
It appears the serpents lie is still in play in the minds of the deceived.
A.
What do you take me for, Bubba?
My body may die before the Lord comes for me, but my spirit and soul will never die. I will walk out of this plane into another, the Kingdom where my Jesus is---seamlessly!
Seems you like to think everyone but yourself is deceived. I am wary of that type of poster.
No pet names please ::smile::
So you dont actually die do you?
My body does, but the real me doesn't.
John 8:51
I tell you the truth, anyone who obeys my teaching will never die!
: Lively Stone Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 02:41:36
: Alethos Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 02:31:43
: Lively Stone Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 00:53:39
: Alethos Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 00:31:04
: Lively Stone Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 00:10:32
: Alethos Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 00:07:56
"Brothers (and Lively), I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he (David) both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. (Acts 2:29)
He is still there in the grave Lively.
"Dust thou art and Dust thou shalt return"
But you don't fully believe that we die do you Lively?
And the serpent said "You will not surely die."
It appears the serpents lie is still in play in the minds of the deceived.
A.
What do you take me for, Bubba?
My body may die before the Lord comes for me, but my spirit and soul will never die. I will walk out of this plane into another, the Kingdom where my Jesus is---seamlessly!
Seems you like to think everyone but yourself is deceived. I am wary of that type of poster.
No pet names please ::smile::
So you dont actually die do you?
My body does, but the real me doesn't.
John 8:51
I tell you the truth, anyone who obeys my teaching will never die!
Alethos,
In the OP you did a very fine job laying out the details concerning the meaning of the soul [nephesh in Hebrew]. But you failed to make the distinction between the human nephesh and the animal nephesh. The failure to note that distinction may have been on purpose or just an oversight. I hope the distinction is not lost on you but given your view of "soul sleep" I fear that it may well be. Also some other things that you have posted (if I remember correctly) suggest also that it is.
The distinction that you seem to have missed in all of this is the presence of the spirit of man which is unique in the animal kingdom. As I have pointed out a couple of times at least is that although soul and spirit are not precisely the same, throughout the Bible and especially in the NT when speaking of the human being, man, the two terms can almost always be used interchangeably.
In the Bible, particularly the NT, sleep is a euphemism for physical, not spiritual, death. It is not a state of spiritual unconsciousness as you seem to believe. It seems clear that you are somewhat confused about the intermediate state of our being, that state between the time of our physical death and the return of Christ and our resurrection. The biggest problem with the soul-sleep view which you seem to hold is that the Bible also portrays the dead as being in a state of consciousness.
In 1 Sam 28:11-19 God permitted the prophet Samuel to speak to King Saul, even though Samuel was dead (v.3). The fact that he spoke with Saul implies his continuing conscieous existence.
The appearance of Moses and Elijah at the event of Christ's transfiguration in Matthew 17 is a similar situation. They conversed with Jesus, showing thier continuing conscious exestence. The visible form seen by Peter, James and John, like that of Samuel when he spoke with Saul, may be only a form given them by God for the occasion and may not necessarily correspond to their condition on the "other side". It most like is a form given so that they could be seen, much like that when angels confront men directly. We do not connect what was seen in such instances with their new glorified resurrection bodies.
In Matt 10:28 Jesus warns, "And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." I believe that the would soul here is not the same as the soul [Heb - nephesh] that is spoken of in Genesis. Rather it is the spirit of man which distinguishes him from the rest of the animals that is being referred to. Jesus does not necessarily speak to an intermediate state here but He does clearly show that the soul (spirit) is separable from the body and that it continues to exist apart from the body after physcial death.
The account in Luke 16:19-31 is the oft referred to story of the rich man and Lazaurs, both of whom died and continued on in conscious existence in what is obviously an interim state. Now whether this is a parable or the recounting of an actual event is really beside the point. Even if Lazarus and the rich man were not real people, the circumstances pictured in the story must refelct the reality of the afterlife; otherwise Jesus has misled us.
Jesus' reply to the prayer of the thief on the cross, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise", jsuggests both consciousness and disembodiment after death. The very concept of Paradise implies a state of blessing. How can it be a state of blessing if it is not consciously experieced? The expression Jesus used, "with Me in Paradise" confirm the dead exist in a counscious interim state in contrast to "soul-sleep".
In Phil 1:21-24 Paul declares that he is happy "to remain on in the flesh" for the sake of serving Christ in the life. But at the same time he says as far as his own personal desires are concerned, he would much prefer "to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better". He sums that up in v.21 with "For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain".
I could go on and on showing that the concept of "soul-sleep" as you propose is simply not biblical. Over and over, the Bible, particularly the NT, affirms the existence of a conscious intermediate state.
Great study Jimmy.....
spirit or "pneuma," in nearly every case, refers to that part of man that in non-material.
Man is more in the image of God in spirit than in body.
Soul or "psyche" has three primary uses.
(1) The rough equivalent of "spirit"; man's spiritual nature: Rev. 6:9, 20; Ma. 10:28; Luke 1:46-47.
(2) The whole "person" or "self": Acts 2:41; 7:14; 27:37 Romans 13:1; James 5:20; 1 Peter 3:20.
(3) The "life" of the person: John 10:11; Acts. 15:26; Ma. 16:26, etc.
Psyche is translated "life" 40 times in the KJV.
For sure, man is a unity of body and spirit.
Sin involves the whole man and salvation includes the body.
Jesus died to save men, not spirits. (Romans 8:23).
: Jimmy Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 08:09:19
Alethos,
In the OP you did a very fine job laying out the details concerning the meaning of the soul [nephesh in Hebrew]. But you failed to make the distinction between the human nephesh and the animal nephesh. The failure to note that distinction may have been on purpose or just an oversight. I hope the distinction is not lost on you but given your view of "soul sleep" I fear that it may well be. Also some other things that you have posted (if I remember correctly) suggest also that it is.
The distinction between animal and man is nonexistent in relation to the meaning of soul.
For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. (Ecclesiastes 3:19)
What does this teach?
• Man and Animal share the same end - - death
• Man and Animal share the same one breath – respiratory system
• In terms of their biology a man has no pre-eminence over an animal.
I will wait for your acknowledgment of the above as truth before moving onto the rest of your post. If you cannot perceive that no good thing is in man or his material nature there is no point in going any further.
A.
: Alethos Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 02:35:04
: Delta12 Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 00:41:15
: Alethos Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 23:55:13
: Lively Stone Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 23:46:04
: Delta12 Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 23:30:21
Also an interesting note. That when a person dies its an unnatural thing to be without the body. After death one is incomplete without the body. That is why the resurrection of the body is so important. Our resurrected bodies will not be of flesh and blood for flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God. We will have a Body Like Jesus Christ does now, a spiritual body that has flesh and bone. Our earthly bodies are seeds sown to be raised and transformed.
God breathed into the flesh and it became "Nephesh Chayah" which translators inconsistently translateed.
"The soul is the whole of the person, the unity of the body, breath and mind. It is not some immaterial spiritual entity it is you, all of you, your whole being or self."- Jeff A. Benner Biblical Hebrew E-Magazine
Manna!
Sorry it appears our Delta believes in this "without the body" which is found where in the Bible?
What do you mean in this statement?
Delta,
You referred to this idea of being without the body as if you have some immortal essence in you that wafts of to God when you die.
No Scripture can be produced to prove such a thing - it's a notion born out Greek philosophy.
A.
You are without your body in the sense you have not been raised to be flesh and bone as you will be when Christ returns and you get your glorified body. What ever Spiritual Body you are given to be in the place of absent from the body and present with the Lord I do not know 100 percent for sure.
: Delta12 Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 23:10:07
: Alethos Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 02:35:04
: Delta12 Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 00:41:15
: Alethos Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 23:55:13
: Lively Stone Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 23:46:04
: Delta12 Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 23:30:21
Also an interesting note. That when a person dies its an unnatural thing to be without the body. After death one is incomplete without the body. That is why the resurrection of the body is so important. Our resurrected bodies will not be of flesh and blood for flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God. We will have a Body Like Jesus Christ does now, a spiritual body that has flesh and bone. Our earthly bodies are seeds sown to be raised and transformed.
God breathed into the flesh and it became "Nephesh Chayah" which translators inconsistently translateed.
"The soul is the whole of the person, the unity of the body, breath and mind. It is not some immaterial spiritual entity it is you, all of you, your whole being or self."- Jeff A. Benner Biblical Hebrew E-Magazine
Manna!
Sorry it appears our Delta believes in this "without the body" which is found where in the Bible?
What do you mean in this statement?
Delta,
You referred to this idea of being without the body as if you have some immortal essence in you that wafts of to God when you die.
No Scripture can be produced to prove such a thing - it's a notion born out Greek philosophy.
A.
You are without your body in the sense you have not been raised to be flesh and bone as you will be when Christ returns and you get your glorified body. What ever Spiritual Body you are given to be in the place of absent from the body and present with the Lord I do not know 100 percent for sure.
Are you able to define this non material entity you speak off?
And provide a verse of two to support your belief.
Thanks
A.
Well right off hand I can think of where Paul talks about different types of bodies. Second, where he talks about putting off the one tent and putting on the next one. Also where Jesus appeared to His followers with Flesh and Bone.
: Tyler Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 12:41:36
Great study Jimmy.....
spirit or "pneuma," in nearly every case, refers to that part of man that in non-material.
Man is more in the image of God in spirit than in body.
Soul or "psyche" has three primary uses.
(1) The rough equivalent of "spirit"; man's spiritual nature: Rev. 6:9, 20; Ma. 10:28; Luke 1:46-47.
(2) The whole "person" or "self": Acts 2:41; 7:14; 27:37 Romans 13:1; James 5:20; 1 Peter 3:20.
(3) The "life" of the person: John 10:11; Acts. 15:26; Ma. 16:26, etc.
Psyche is translated "life" 40 times in the KJV.
For sure, man is a unity of body and spirit.
Sin involves the whole man and salvation includes the body.
Jesus died to save men, not spirits. (Romans 8:23).
Can you prove from Rev 6:9 that the word soul is not referring to Life,body,living creature or lives?
9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held
How can you prove these are ethereal beings when the alter is symbolic and the idea of those people being literally under the alter is not being conveyed?
This is a typical example of an uninformed Christian running away with quotes they know very little about.
Disappointing really as it distracts people from the truth.
A.
: Delta12 Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 01:15:36
Well right off hand I can think of where Paul talks about different types of bodies. Second, where he talks about putting off the one tent and putting on the next one. Also where Jesus appeared to His followers with Flesh and Bone.
Put up the quotes and lets discuss them if you believe they speak of believers possessing immortal nature.
: Alethos Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 22:57:30
: Jimmy Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 08:09:19
Alethos,
In the OP you did a very fine job laying out the details concerning the meaning of the soul [nephesh in Hebrew]. But you failed to make the distinction between the human nephesh and the animal nephesh. The failure to note that distinction may have been on purpose or just an oversight. I hope the distinction is not lost on you but given your view of "soul sleep" I fear that it may well be. Also some other things that you have posted (if I remember correctly) suggest also that it is.
The distinction between animal and man is nonexistent in relation to the meaning of soul.
For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. (Ecclesiastes 3:19)
What does this teach?
• Man and Animal share the same end - - death
• Man and Animal share the same one breath – respiratory system
• In terms of their biology a man has no pre-eminence over an animal.
I will wait for your acknowledgment of the above as truth before moving onto the rest of your post. If you cannot perceive that no good thing is in man or his material nature there is no point in going any further.
A.
But none of that speaks to the fact that man is made in the image of God. That image is not in the body and soul as relates to the flesh. Rather that image is in the spirit and is not shared with the rest of the animals in any way. Now my point here is that when the Bible speaks of the soul of man it usually does so with this distinction in view. When it speaks, for example, of the "soul that sins" it speaks only of the soul of man, a soul for which there is not only a body but a spirit.
When you say there is no "good thing" in man, be careful that you have correctly defined the meaning of good. That meaning is not the ordinary "good" of ordinary speaking. Wycliff's Shilallee (sp?) once observed here that we, man and animal, are souls; animals have a body; we have both a body and a spirit. That pretty well establishes the distinction. If there is any confusion it is because in speaking about man, the Bible, particularly in the NT, often uses soul and spirit interchangeably.
: Jimmy Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 15:35:29
: Alethos Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 22:57:30
: Jimmy Sat Jun 02, 2012 - 08:09:19
Alethos,
In the OP you did a very fine job laying out the details concerning the meaning of the soul [nephesh in Hebrew]. But you failed to make the distinction between the human nephesh and the animal nephesh. The failure to note that distinction may have been on purpose or just an oversight. I hope the distinction is not lost on you but given your view of "soul sleep" I fear that it may well be. Also some other things that you have posted (if I remember correctly) suggest also that it is.
The distinction between animal and man is nonexistent in relation to the meaning of soul.
For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. (Ecclesiastes 3:19)
What does this teach?
• Man and Animal share the same end - - death
• Man and Animal share the same one breath – respiratory system
• In terms of their biology a man has no pre-eminence over an animal.
I will wait for your acknowledgment of the above as truth before moving onto the rest of your post. If you cannot perceive that no good thing is in man or his material nature there is no point in going any further.
A.
But none of that speaks to the fact that man is made in the image of God.
Being made in the image and with the potential for likeness does nothing to change the biological make up of man.
Image (appearance) and likeness (moral propensity, which is developed from the hearing of the Word)
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Rom 10:17)
I wait for you to acknowledge that man in his natural state has no pre-eminence (at all) over the animal in accordance to the Scriptures.
However, his interlectual ability is what seperates them.
That image is not in the body and soul as relates to the flesh. Rather that image is in the spirit and is not shared with the rest of the animals in any way.
The image is in the body; hence for this reason the Angels appear as men - in "our" image made He them!
Now my point here is that when the Bible speaks of the soul of man it usually does so with this distinction in view. When it speaks, for example, of the "soul that sins" it speaks only of the soul of man, a soul for which there is not only a body but a spirit.
Incorrect - the "soul that sins" is confined to the body or flesh of that life.
For I know that in me (
that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. (Rom 7:18)
Paul is very careful to focus your attention to the location and source of sin. (That is, in my flesh) dwells NO GOOD THING!
Sin is brought to life out of our nature.
Read the Lords teaching on this subject.
And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him; Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? And he said,
That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man. (Mar 7:18-23)
Out of the heart (mind) of man!
Read yourself rich Jimmy!
When you say there is no "good thing" in man, be careful that you have correctly defined the meaning of good. That meaning is not the ordinary "good" of ordinary speaking. Wycliff's Shilallee (sp?) once observed here that we, man and animal, are souls; animals have a body; we have both a body and a spirit. That pretty well establishes the distinction. If there is any confusion it is because in speaking about man, the Bible, particularly in the NT, often uses soul and spirit interchangeably.
You are way off beam Jimmy.
The heart (or mind left to itself) is
deceitful above all things, and
desperately wicked: who can know it? (Jer 17:9)
There is nothing inherently good in man
only the external mind that enters the man through taking possession of another Mind or way of thinking can that person reflect the moral likeness of God in their animal state.
While you are trying to swing the discussion over to Spirit - I will hold you fast to the Biblical meaning of Soul as it relates to man and animals.
Once we have achieved this we can then progress to discuss how the spirit or Spirit and the distinction between the both applies to man.
Jimmy, a word of advice.
Try to narrow your thoughts to the subject at hand, which is concerning the soul. The Bible will teach you all you need to know about this subject
if you remain focused.
A.
: Alethos Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 19:18:58
Jimmy, a word of advice.
Try to narrow your thoughts to the subject at hand, which is concerning the soul. The Bible will teach you all you need to know about this subject if you remain focused.
A.
A.. Most of that is simply your own conjecture. Perhaps you should take your own advice. If you would simply do a search on the word "soul" in the OT and/or the NT I think you would find that it is you who have confused what the Bible actually says about the soul.
I can't be certain what your religious/theological background and experience is, but I think some of it is a bit weird. You remind me of the person here some time past who actually said that a mother nursing and caring for her baby could not be considered "good" if she were not a Christian. But of course that person failed to understand the biblical usages of the word "good". You also are confused about that as well. And you are similarly confused about the biblical usages of the would "soul".
: Jimmy Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 19:36:36
: Alethos Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 19:18:58
Jimmy, a word of advice.
Try to narrow your thoughts to the subject at hand, which is concerning the soul. The Bible will teach you all you need to know about this subject if you remain focused.
A.
A.. Most of that is simply your own conjecture. Perhaps you should take your own advice. If you would simply do a search on the word "soul" in the OT and/or the NT I think you would find that it is you who have confused what the Bible actually says about the soul.
I can't be certain what your religious/theological background and experience is, but I think some of it is a bit weird. You remind me of the person here some time past who actually said that a mother nursing and caring for her baby could not be considered "good" if she were not a Christian. But of course that person failed to understand the biblical usages of the word "good". You also are confused about that as well. And you are similarly confused about the biblical usages of the would "soul".
If this is how you think and you suggest your understanding is clear why dont you post some of these "soul" verses which support your belief.
In doing so you will be forced to consider the context before posting and who knows, you may learn something of the Word that you didnt know before ::nodding::
::shrug::
: Jimmy Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 19:36:36
: Alethos Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 19:18:58
Jimmy, a word of advice.
Try to narrow your thoughts to the subject at hand, which is concerning the soul. The Bible will teach you all you need to know about this subject if you remain focused.
A.
A.. Most of that is simply your own conjecture. Perhaps you should take your own advice. If you would simply do a search on the word "soul" in the OT and/or the NT I think you would find that it is you who have confused what the Bible actually says about the soul.
I can't be certain what your religious/theological background and experience is, but I think some of it is a bit weird. You remind me of the person here some time past who actually said that a mother nursing and caring for her baby could not be considered "good" if she were not a Christian. But of course that person failed to understand the biblical usages of the word "good". You also are confused about that as well. And you are similarly confused about the biblical usages of the would "soul".
By the way Jimmy my understanding of "good" is very good.
Even Christ could not see himself as good and for good reason.
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good?
there is none good but one, that is, God. (Mar 10:18)
Of course you would need a sound unstanding of the teaching of Soul in the Bible to understand how Christ could speak such truth.
::pondering::
In James 2:16
It says that the body without the spirit is dead. It does not say the spirit dies, does it? Just the body!
In Matthew 10:28
It says do not fear those that can kill the body but cannot kill the soul. It is saying if someone kills us physically they kill the body, but not the soul. right? It also mentions that the soul would be destroyed in Hell (Geenna). So the soul lives until the final judgement and this is only for those that are the wicked and their future destruction, right?
In Genesis 35:18
It says her(Rachel) soul was departing...where did it go? Her body would be buried but her soul was not with her body, right?
In 1 Corinthians 6:19-20
It says that we are the temple of the Holy Spirit. Where does the HS dwell in us? What part?
Psalm 146: 4 speaks of breath(Ruwach) departing form a person and that very day his plans perish. Is this speaking of an unbeliever or both?
John 5:28-29
John says not to marval the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will HEAR his voice and come out, both good and evil...What part of us can hear? Is it our body?
Luke 1:46
Mary mentions both her soul(Psuche) magnifies the Lord, and my spirit (Pneuma) rejoices in God my Savior. Does't this describe two parts of Mary?
Matthew 27:52
Speaks of tombs opening and bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised...What happen to these saints?
Again, a lot of what I am reading on this forum does not make sense in light of these scriptures and more....
Also until someone can explain the difference in these hebrew and greek words...we will continue to be blinded to truth.
Hebrew:
roo'akh-the Spirit
neh'fesh-soul-self conscious
baw-sawr'-body
Greek:
phoo'mah-Spirit
psoo'day-soul
sarx-body
Three different words to describe three different parts....
: Alethos Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 20:26:34
: Jimmy Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 19:36:36
: Alethos Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 19:18:58
Jimmy, a word of advice.
Try to narrow your thoughts to the subject at hand, which is concerning the soul. The Bible will teach you all you need to know about this subject if you remain focused.
A.
A.. Most of that is simply your own conjecture. Perhaps you should take your own advice. If you would simply do a search on the word "soul" in the OT and/or the NT I think you would find that it is you who have confused what the Bible actually says about the soul.
I can't be certain what your religious/theological background and experience is, but I think some of it is a bit weird. You remind me of the person here some time past who actually said that a mother nursing and caring for her baby could not be considered "good" if she were not a Christian. But of course that person failed to understand the biblical usages of the word "good". You also are confused about that as well. And you are similarly confused about the biblical usages of the would "soul".
By the way Jimmy my understanding of "good" is very good.
By the way Alethos you understanding of "good" is not very good.
: Alethos Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 20:06:41
: Jimmy Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 19:36:36
: Alethos Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 19:18:58
Jimmy, a word of advice.
Try to narrow your thoughts to the subject at hand, which is concerning the soul. The Bible will teach you all you need to know about this subject if you remain focused.
A.
A.. Most of that is simply your own conjecture. Perhaps you should take your own advice. If you would simply do a search on the word "soul" in the OT and/or the NT I think you would find that it is you who have confused what the Bible actually says about the soul.
I can't be certain what your religious/theological background and experience is, but I think some of it is a bit weird. You remind me of the person here some time past who actually said that a mother nursing and caring for her baby could not be considered "good" if she were not a Christian. But of course that person failed to understand the biblical usages of the word "good". You also are confused about that as well. And you are similarly confused about the biblical usages of the would "soul".
If this is how you think and you suggest your understanding is clear why dont you post some of these "soul" verses which support your belief.
I did that already on page 10 of the "dividing of body, soul and spirit" thread.
Alethos: "How can you prove these are ethereal beings when the alter is symbolic and the idea of those people being literally under the alter is not being conveyed?
This is a typical example of an uninformed Christian running away with quotes they know very little about.
Disappointing really as it distracts people from the truth.'
You need to dig a little deeper and get a handle on the Word before you shoot from the hip poster.....
Verse nine of Revelation six embraces a complex sentence of three clauses.
The independent member affirms, "I saw the souls..."
When he saw the souls is testified to in the verb clause, "when he opened the fifth seal."
Where the souls were that he saw is designated by the prepositional phrase, "under the alter."
These "souls" that John saw were secure under the alter, "the place of sacrifice."
To point out more definitely which "souls" he saw the apostle introduces the attributive
perfect passive participle "the ones having been slaughtered." Why they were slaughtered appears in
two adverb phrases with accusative, "because of the word of God" and because of the testimony..."
This "testimony" as described by an adjective dependent clause..."which they were having."
Something to think about: In 1 Thessalonians 5:23, the term body, soul, and spirit represents an accumulation
of terms indicating the intensity and completeness of the desired sanctification, just as in Matthew 22:37
the terms heart, soul, and mind is an accumulation of terms indicating the intensity and completeness of
the desired kind of love.
: grace Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 21:21:47
In James 2:16
It says that the body without the spirit is dead. It does not say the spirit dies, does it? Just the body!
Hi Grace.
and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? (Jas 2:16)
You might have done it again?
A.
: Jimmy Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 22:08:24
: Alethos Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 20:26:34
: Jimmy Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 19:36:36
: Alethos Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 19:18:58
Jimmy, a word of advice.
Try to narrow your thoughts to the subject at hand, which is concerning the soul. The Bible will teach you all you need to know about this subject if you remain focused.
A.
A.. Most of that is simply your own conjecture. Perhaps you should take your own advice. If you would simply do a search on the word "soul" in the OT and/or the NT I think you would find that it is you who have confused what the Bible actually says about the soul.
I can't be certain what your religious/theological background and experience is, but I think some of it is a bit weird. You remind me of the person here some time past who actually said that a mother nursing and caring for her baby could not be considered "good" if she were not a Christian. But of course that person failed to understand the biblical usages of the word "good". You also are confused about that as well. And you are similarly confused about the biblical usages of the would "soul".
By the way Jimmy my understanding of "good" is very good.
By the way Alethos you understanding of "good" is not very good.
No Jimmy what is not good is one simply saying its not good without providing any substance to support their claim.
Can you be taken seriously?...I want to but as it stands...
: Tyler Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 22:21:42
You need to dig a little deeper and get a handle on the Word before you shoot from the hip poster.....
Verse nine of Revelation six embraces a complex sentence of three clauses.
The independent member affirms, "I saw the souls..."
When he saw the souls is testified to in the verb clause, "when he opened the fifth seal."
Where the souls were that he saw is designated by the prepositional phrase, "under the alter."
These "souls" that John saw were secure under the alter, "the place of sacrifice."
To point out more definitely which "souls" he saw the apostle introduces the attributive
perfect passive participle "the ones having been slaughtered." Why they were slaughtered appears in
two adverb phrases with accusative, "because of the word of God" and because of the testimony..."
This "testimony" as described by an adjective dependent clause..."which they were having."
Tyler,
Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls (lives) of
those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands.
They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
(Rev 20:4)
It must have been a terrible vision to see these people who were decapitated, all the while "joyful" in watching them (their bodies) come to life once more? i.e ressurection!
By the way what do your immortal "souls" look like Tyler?
(note: the first ressurection is yet to take place - - that requires the Masters return)
: Jimmy Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 22:10:24
: Alethos Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 20:06:41
: Jimmy Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 19:36:36
: Alethos Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 19:18:58
Jimmy, a word of advice.
Try to narrow your thoughts to the subject at hand, which is concerning the soul. The Bible will teach you all you need to know about this subject if you remain focused.
A.
A.. Most of that is simply your own conjecture. Perhaps you should take your own advice. If you would simply do a search on the word "soul" in the OT and/or the NT I think you would find that it is you who have confused what the Bible actually says about the soul.
I can't be certain what your religious/theological background and experience is, but I think some of it is a bit weird. You remind me of the person here some time past who actually said that a mother nursing and caring for her baby could not be considered "good" if she were not a Christian. But of course that person failed to understand the biblical usages of the word "good". You also are confused about that as well. And you are similarly confused about the biblical usages of the would "soul".
If this is how you think and you suggest your understanding is clear why dont you post some of these "soul" verses which support your belief.
I did that already on page 10 of the "dividing of body, soul and spirit" thread.
Its not worthy of being reposted?
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 00:31:52
: Jimmy Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 22:08:24
: Alethos Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 20:26:34
: Jimmy Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 19:36:36
: Alethos Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 19:18:58
Jimmy, a word of advice.
Try to narrow your thoughts to the subject at hand, which is concerning the soul. The Bible will teach you all you need to know about this subject if you remain focused.
A.
A.. Most of that is simply your own conjecture. Perhaps you should take your own advice. If you would simply do a search on the word "soul" in the OT and/or the NT I think you would find that it is you who have confused what the Bible actually says about the soul.
I can't be certain what your religious/theological background and experience is, but I think some of it is a bit weird. You remind me of the person here some time past who actually said that a mother nursing and caring for her baby could not be considered "good" if she were not a Christian. But of course that person failed to understand the biblical usages of the word "good". You also are confused about that as well. And you are similarly confused about the biblical usages of the would "soul".
By the way Jimmy my understanding of "good" is very good.
By the way Alethos you understanding of "good" is not very good.
No Jimmy what is not good is one simply saying its not good without providing any substance to support their claim.
Can you be taken seriously?...I want to but as it stands...
You can take me seriously or not. That is up to you. But for what it is worth, more and more lately, I have quit taking you seriously.
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 01:01:46
: Jimmy Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 22:10:24
: Alethos Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 20:06:41
: Jimmy Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 19:36:36
: Alethos Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 19:18:58
Jimmy, a word of advice.
Try to narrow your thoughts to the subject at hand, which is concerning the soul. The Bible will teach you all you need to know about this subject if you remain focused.
A.
A.. Most of that is simply your own conjecture. Perhaps you should take your own advice. If you would simply do a search on the word "soul" in the OT and/or the NT I think you would find that it is you who have confused what the Bible actually says about the soul.
I can't be certain what your religious/theological background and experience is, but I think some of it is a bit weird. You remind me of the person here some time past who actually said that a mother nursing and caring for her baby could not be considered "good" if she were not a Christian. But of course that person failed to understand the biblical usages of the word "good". You also are confused about that as well. And you are similarly confused about the biblical usages of the would "soul".
If this is how you think and you suggest your understanding is clear why dont you post some of these "soul" verses which support your belief.
I did that already on page 10 of the "dividing of body, soul and spirit" thread.
Its not worthy of being reposted?
You are too lazy to go to thread mentioned?
Soooooo
In Cliff note fashion Alethos:
What theology are you stating here?
How does this theology show that God is GOOD?
: Jimmy Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 06:26:15
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 01:01:46
: Jimmy Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 22:10:24
: Alethos Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 20:06:41
: Jimmy Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 19:36:36
: Alethos Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 19:18:58
Jimmy, a word of advice.
Try to narrow your thoughts to the subject at hand, which is concerning the soul. The Bible will teach you all you need to know about this subject if you remain focused.
A.
A.. Most of that is simply your own conjecture. Perhaps you should take your own advice. If you would simply do a search on the word "soul" in the OT and/or the NT I think you would find that it is you who have confused what the Bible actually says about the soul.
I can't be certain what your religious/theological background and experience is, but I think some of it is a bit weird. You remind me of the person here some time past who actually said that a mother nursing and caring for her baby could not be considered "good" if she were not a Christian. But of course that person failed to understand the biblical usages of the word "good". You also are confused about that as well. And you are similarly confused about the biblical usages of the would "soul".
If this is how you think and you suggest your understanding is clear why dont you post some of these "soul" verses which support your belief.
I did that already on page 10 of the "dividing of body, soul and spirit" thread.
Its not worthy of being reposted?
You are too lazy to go to thread mentioned?
No the other thread has been taken over by foolish rivalries.
At leat this OP is still on topic...well almost
: JohnDB Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 06:43:17
Soooooo
In Cliff note fashion Alethos:
What theology are you stating here?
How does this theology show that God is GOOD?
John, what theology does not present God as being GOOD?
Of course you must find a theology which understand a Jesus who does not possess inherent GOODNESS.
For only ONE was GOOD...but now there are two.
Are you stating that Jesus wasn't God but became God?
: JohnDB Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:13:05
Are you stating that Jesus wasn't God but became God?
The text is very clear that Jesus attributed something to his Father that he himself did not possess.
The question you should ask is what was not good in Christ?
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 07:47:34
: Jimmy Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 06:26:15
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 01:01:46
: Jimmy Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 22:10:24
: Alethos Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 20:06:41
: Jimmy Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 19:36:36
: Alethos Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 19:18:58
Jimmy, a word of advice.
Try to narrow your thoughts to the subject at hand, which is concerning the soul. The Bible will teach you all you need to know about this subject if you remain focused.
A.
A.. Most of that is simply your own conjecture. Perhaps you should take your own advice. If you would simply do a search on the word "soul" in the OT and/or the NT I think you would find that it is you who have confused what the Bible actually says about the soul.
I can't be certain what your religious/theological background and experience is, but I think some of it is a bit weird. You remind me of the person here some time past who actually said that a mother nursing and caring for her baby could not be considered "good" if she were not a Christian. But of course that person failed to understand the biblical usages of the word "good". You also are confused about that as well. And you are similarly confused about the biblical usages of the would "soul".
If this is how you think and you suggest your understanding is clear why dont you post some of these "soul" verses which support your belief.
I did that already on page 10 of the "dividing of body, soul and spirit" thread.
Its not worthy of being reposted?
You are too lazy to go to thread mentioned?
No the other thread has been taken over by foolish rivalries.
At leat this OP is still on topic...well almost
You mean by foolish people who disagree with you?
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:37:11
: JohnDB Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:13:05
Are you stating that Jesus wasn't God but became God?
The text is very clear that Jesus attributed something to his Father that he himself did not possess.
The question you should ask is what was not good in Christ?
Did Jesus say that He was not good? You are making an assumption based on your pre-conceived notions.
Actually, this is one of the clearer passages of Jesus proclaiming His deity. Only God is good, Jesus
is good, therefore Jesus
is God.
: Jimmy Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:43:38
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 07:47:34
: Jimmy Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 06:26:15
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 01:01:46
: Jimmy Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 22:10:24
: Alethos Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 20:06:41
: Jimmy Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 19:36:36
: Alethos Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 19:18:58
Jimmy, a word of advice.
Try to narrow your thoughts to the subject at hand, which is concerning the soul. The Bible will teach you all you need to know about this subject if you remain focused.
A.
A.. Most of that is simply your own conjecture. Perhaps you should take your own advice. If you would simply do a search on the word "soul" in the OT and/or the NT I think you would find that it is you who have confused what the Bible actually says about the soul.
I can't be certain what your religious/theological background and experience is, but I think some of it is a bit weird. You remind me of the person here some time past who actually said that a mother nursing and caring for her baby could not be considered "good" if she were not a Christian. But of course that person failed to understand the biblical usages of the word "good". You also are confused about that as well. And you are similarly confused about the biblical usages of the would "soul".
If this is how you think and you suggest your understanding is clear why dont you post some of these "soul" verses which support your belief.
I did that already on page 10 of the "dividing of body, soul and spirit" thread.
Its not worthy of being reposted?
You are too lazy to go to thread mentioned?
No the other thread has been taken over by foolish rivalries.
At leat this OP is still on topic...well almost
You mean by foolish people who disagree with you?
No. You don't agree that thread went off topic?
: ChristNU Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:44:18
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:37:11
: JohnDB Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:13:05
Are you stating that Jesus wasn't God but became God?
The text is very clear that Jesus attributed something to his Father that he himself did not possess.
The question you should ask is what was not good in Christ?
Did Jesus say that He was not good? You are making an assumption based on your pre-conceived notions.
Actually, this is one of the clearer passages of Jesus proclaiming His deity. Only God is good, Jesus is good, therefore Jesus is God.
Some serious deception going on there.
18And Jesus said unto him,
Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God
-Jesus is not God
-Jesus rebukes for even implying he is good
-jesus moves his focus to the sole source of good -- God his Father.
Straight forward really.
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:46:35
: Jimmy Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:43:38
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 07:47:34
: Jimmy Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 06:26:15
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 01:01:46
: Jimmy Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 22:10:24
: Alethos Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 20:06:41
: Jimmy Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 19:36:36
: Alethos Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 19:18:58
Jimmy, a word of advice.
Try to narrow your thoughts to the subject at hand, which is concerning the soul. The Bible will teach you all you need to know about this subject if you remain focused.
A.
A.. Most of that is simply your own conjecture. Perhaps you should take your own advice. If you would simply do a search on the word "soul" in the OT and/or the NT I think you would find that it is you who have confused what the Bible actually says about the soul.
I can't be certain what your religious/theological background and experience is, but I think some of it is a bit weird. You remind me of the person here some time past who actually said that a mother nursing and caring for her baby could not be considered "good" if she were not a Christian. But of course that person failed to understand the biblical usages of the word "good". You also are confused about that as well. And you are similarly confused about the biblical usages of the would "soul".
If this is how you think and you suggest your understanding is clear why dont you post some of these "soul" verses which support your belief.
I did that already on page 10 of the "dividing of body, soul and spirit" thread.
Its not worthy of being reposted?
You are too lazy to go to thread mentioned?
No the other thread has been taken over by foolish rivalries.
At leat this OP is still on topic...well almost
You mean by foolish people who disagree with you?
No. You don't agree that thread went off topic?
Jimmy, the topic has been locked due to offensive posts. It was dealing with devils and demons ::pondering::
Are you ok?
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:51:34
: ChristNU Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:44:18
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:37:11
: JohnDB Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:13:05
Are you stating that Jesus wasn't God but became God?
The text is very clear that Jesus attributed something to his Father that he himself did not possess.
The question you should ask is what was not good in Christ?
Did Jesus say that He was not good? You are making an assumption based on your pre-conceived notions.
Actually, this is one of the clearer passages of Jesus proclaiming His deity. Only God is good, Jesus is good, therefore Jesus is God.
Some serious deception going on there.
18And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God
-Jesus is not God
-Jesus rebukes for even implying he is good
-jesus moves his focus to the sole source of good -- God his Father.
Straight forward really.
You are reading your own prejudice into it. There is no rebuke and there is no denial of His own inherent goodness. There is simply the question the leads to the truth. Why call Jesus good if God alone is good? Why indeed.
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:46:35
: Jimmy Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:43:38
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 07:47:34
: Jimmy Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 06:26:15
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 01:01:46
: Jimmy Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 22:10:24
: Alethos Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 20:06:41
: Jimmy Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 19:36:36
: Alethos Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 19:18:58
Jimmy, a word of advice.
Try to narrow your thoughts to the subject at hand, which is concerning the soul. The Bible will teach you all you need to know about this subject if you remain focused.
A.
A.. Most of that is simply your own conjecture. Perhaps you should take your own advice. If you would simply do a search on the word "soul" in the OT and/or the NT I think you would find that it is you who have confused what the Bible actually says about the soul.
I can't be certain what your religious/theological background and experience is, but I think some of it is a bit weird. You remind me of the person here some time past who actually said that a mother nursing and caring for her baby could not be considered "good" if she were not a Christian. But of course that person failed to understand the biblical usages of the word "good". You also are confused about that as well. And you are similarly confused about the biblical usages of the would "soul".
If this is how you think and you suggest your understanding is clear why dont you post some of these "soul" verses which support your belief.
I did that already on page 10 of the "dividing of body, soul and spirit" thread.
Its not worthy of being reposted?
You are too lazy to go to thread mentioned?
No the other thread has been taken over by foolish rivalries.
At leat this OP is still on topic...well almost
You mean by foolish people who disagree with you?
No. You don't agree that thread went off topic?
So what? That doesn't affect what I posted.
: ChristNU Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:57:56
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:51:34
: ChristNU Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:44:18
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:37:11
: JohnDB Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:13:05
Are you stating that Jesus wasn't God but became God?
The text is very clear that Jesus attributed something to his Father that he himself did not possess.
The question you should ask is what was not good in Christ?
Did Jesus say that He was not good? You are making an assumption based on your pre-conceived notions.
Actually, this is one of the clearer passages of Jesus proclaiming His deity. Only God is good, Jesus is good, therefore Jesus is God.
Some serious deception going on there.
18And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God
-Jesus is not God
-Jesus rebukes for even implying he is good
-jesus moves his focus to the sole source of good -- God his Father.
Straight forward really.
You are reading your own prejudice into it. There is no rebuke and there is no denial of His own inherent goodness. There is simply the question the leads to the truth. Why call Jesus good if God alone is good? Why indeed.
Don't call
me good only One is good that is God.
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:51:34
-Jesus is not God
Nothing short of heresy!!
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 09:00:27
: ChristNU Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:57:56
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:51:34
: ChristNU Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:44:18
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:37:11
: JohnDB Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:13:05
Are you stating that Jesus wasn't God but became God?
The text is very clear that Jesus attributed something to his Father that he himself did not possess.
The question you should ask is what was not good in Christ?
Did Jesus say that He was not good? You are making an assumption based on your pre-conceived notions.
Actually, this is one of the clearer passages of Jesus proclaiming His deity. Only God is good, Jesus is good, therefore Jesus is God.
Some serious deception going on there.
18And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God
-Jesus is not God
-Jesus rebukes for even implying he is good
-jesus moves his focus to the sole source of good -- God his Father.
Straight forward really.
You are reading your own prejudice into it. There is no rebuke and there is no denial of His own inherent goodness. There is simply the question the leads to the truth. Why call Jesus good if God alone is good? Why indeed.
Don't call me good only One is good that is God.
Your still reading into it. He does not say not to call Him good.
: Jimmy Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:58:04
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:46:35
: Jimmy Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:43:38
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 07:47:34
: Jimmy Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 06:26:15
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 01:01:46
: Jimmy Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 22:10:24
: Alethos Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 20:06:41
: Jimmy Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 19:36:36
: Alethos Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 19:18:58
Jimmy, a word of advice.
Try to narrow your thoughts to the subject at hand, which is concerning the soul. The Bible will teach you all you need to know about this subject if you remain focused.
A.
A.. Most of that is simply your own conjecture. Perhaps you should take your own advice. If you would simply do a search on the word "soul" in the OT and/or the NT I think you would find that it is you who have confused what the Bible actually says about the soul.
I can't be certain what your religious/theological background and experience is, but I think some of it is a bit weird. You remind me of the person here some time past who actually said that a mother nursing and caring for her baby could not be considered "good" if she were not a Christian. But of course that person failed to understand the biblical usages of the word "good". You also are confused about that as well. And you are similarly confused about the biblical usages of the would "soul".
If this is how you think and you suggest your understanding is clear why dont you post some of these "soul" verses which support your belief.
I did that already on page 10 of the "dividing of body, soul and spirit" thread.
Its not worthy of being reposted?
You are too lazy to go to thread mentioned?
No the other thread has been taken over by foolish rivalries.
At leat this OP is still on topic...well almost
You mean by foolish people who disagree with you?
No. You don't agree that thread went off topic?
So what? That doesn't affect what I posted.
At least this OP is still on topic.....well almost ::smile::
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 09:00:27
: ChristNU Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:57:56
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:51:34
: ChristNU Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:44:18
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:37:11
: JohnDB Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:13:05
Are you stating that Jesus wasn't God but became God?
The text is very clear that Jesus attributed something to his Father that he himself did not possess.
The question you should ask is what was not good in Christ?
Did Jesus say that He was not good? You are making an assumption based on your pre-conceived notions.
Actually, this is one of the clearer passages of Jesus proclaiming His deity. Only God is good, Jesus is good, therefore Jesus is God.
Some serious deception going on there.
18And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God
-Jesus is not God
-Jesus rebukes for even implying he is good
-jesus moves his focus to the sole source of good -- God his Father.
Straight forward really.
You are reading your own prejudice into it. There is no rebuke and there is no denial of His own inherent goodness. There is simply the question the leads to the truth. Why call Jesus good if God alone is good? Why indeed.
Don't call me good only One is good that is God.
That is NOT what Jesus said.
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:37:11
: JohnDB Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:13:05
Are you stating that Jesus wasn't God but became God?
The text is very clear that Jesus attributed something to his Father that he himself did not possess.
The question you should ask is what was not good in Christ?
How about a simple "yes" or "no" answer?
and that is ALL I want.
: ChristNU Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 09:01:41
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 09:00:27
: ChristNU Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:57:56
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:51:34
: ChristNU Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:44:18
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:37:11
: JohnDB Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:13:05
Are you stating that Jesus wasn't God but became God?
The text is very clear that Jesus attributed something to his Father that he himself did not possess.
The question you should ask is what was not good in Christ?
Did Jesus say that He was not good? You are making an assumption based on your pre-conceived notions.
Actually, this is one of the clearer passages of Jesus proclaiming His deity. Only God is good, Jesus is good, therefore Jesus is God.
Some serious deception going on there.
18And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God
-Jesus is not God
-Jesus rebukes for even implying he is good
-jesus moves his focus to the sole source of good -- God his Father.
Straight forward really.
You are reading your own prejudice into it. There is no rebuke and there is no denial of His own inherent goodness. There is simply the question the leads to the truth. Why call Jesus good if God alone is good? Why indeed.
Don't call me good only One is good that is God.
Your still reading into it. He does not say not to call Him good.
And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 09:04:07
: ChristNU Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 09:01:41
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 09:00:27
: ChristNU Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:57:56
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:51:34
: ChristNU Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:44:18
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:37:11
: JohnDB Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:13:05
Are you stating that Jesus wasn't God but became God?
The text is very clear that Jesus attributed something to his Father that he himself did not possess.
The question you should ask is what was not good in Christ?
Did Jesus say that He was not good? You are making an assumption based on your pre-conceived notions.
Actually, this is one of the clearer passages of Jesus proclaiming His deity. Only God is good, Jesus is good, therefore Jesus is God.
Some serious deception going on there.
18And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God
-Jesus is not God
-Jesus rebukes for even implying he is good
-jesus moves his focus to the sole source of good -- God his Father.
Straight forward really.
You are reading your own prejudice into it. There is no rebuke and there is no denial of His own inherent goodness. There is simply the question the leads to the truth. Why call Jesus good if God alone is good? Why indeed.
Don't call me good only One is good that is God.
Your still reading into it. He does not say not to call Him good.
And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.
Yep. Jesus is good, and Jesus is God. A clear proclamation of His own deity.
: JohnDB Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 09:03:55
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:37:11
: JohnDB Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:13:05
Are you stating that Jesus wasn't God but became God?
The text is very clear that Jesus attributed something to his Father that he himself did not possess.
The question you should ask is what was not good in Christ?
How about a simple "yes" or "no" answer?
and that is ALL I want.
No....Jesus could never be God nor could he ever become God.
How can the created become the creator?
A Son could never become the Father but it was sufficient that he become like his Father.
A.
: ChristNU Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 09:07:35
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 09:04:07
: ChristNU Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 09:01:41
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 09:00:27
: ChristNU Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:57:56
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:51:34
: ChristNU Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:44:18
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:37:11
: JohnDB Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:13:05
Are you stating that Jesus wasn't God but became God?
The text is very clear that Jesus attributed something to his Father that he himself did not possess.
The question you should ask is what was not good in Christ?
Did Jesus say that He was not good? You are making an assumption based on your pre-conceived notions.
Actually, this is one of the clearer passages of Jesus proclaiming His deity. Only God is good, Jesus is good, therefore Jesus is God.
Some serious deception going on there.
18And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God
-Jesus is not God
-Jesus rebukes for even implying he is good
-jesus moves his focus to the sole source of good -- God his Father.
Straight forward really.
You are reading your own prejudice into it. There is no rebuke and there is no denial of His own inherent goodness. There is simply the question the leads to the truth. Why call Jesus good if God alone is good? Why indeed.
Don't call me good only One is good that is God.
Your still reading into it. He does not say not to call Him good.
And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.
Yep. Jesus is good, and Jesus is God. A clear proclamation of His own deity.
If this allows you to sleep easy...if its any consolation I understand why it is you hold on to these beliefs so tightly.
But imagine the discovery if you opened your mind to a deeper truth.
Yeshua said to him, "Why do you call me good? There is no one good but The One God.
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jesus has a God.
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 09:11:28
: ChristNU Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 09:07:35
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 09:04:07
: ChristNU Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 09:01:41
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 09:00:27
: ChristNU Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:57:56
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:51:34
: ChristNU Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:44:18
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:37:11
: JohnDB Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:13:05
Are you stating that Jesus wasn't God but became God?
The text is very clear that Jesus attributed something to his Father that he himself did not possess.
The question you should ask is what was not good in Christ?
Did Jesus say that He was not good? You are making an assumption based on your pre-conceived notions.
Actually, this is one of the clearer passages of Jesus proclaiming His deity. Only God is good, Jesus is good, therefore Jesus is God.
Some serious deception going on there.
18And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God
-Jesus is not God
-Jesus rebukes for even implying he is good
-jesus moves his focus to the sole source of good -- God his Father.
Straight forward really.
You are reading your own prejudice into it. There is no rebuke and there is no denial of His own inherent goodness. There is simply the question the leads to the truth. Why call Jesus good if God alone is good? Why indeed.
Don't call me good only One is good that is God.
Your still reading into it. He does not say not to call Him good.
And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.
Yep. Jesus is good, and Jesus is God. A clear proclamation of His own deity.
If this allows you to sleep easy...if its any consolation I understand why it is you hold on to these beliefs so tightly.
But imagine the discovery if you opened your mind to a deeper truth.
It does allow me to sleep easy, thank you. I am glad you understand why I hold to biblical Christian beliefs...seeing how I am a Christian.
I would rather imagine what you might discover if you would open your mind to
the Truth, the only God our Savior, Jesus Christ (Jude 1:25).
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Jesus has a God
Hear oh Israel
The Lord
The Lord God is one.
: ChristNU Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 09:25:06
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 09:11:28
: ChristNU Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 09:07:35
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 09:04:07
: ChristNU Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 09:01:41
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 09:00:27
: ChristNU Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:57:56
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:51:34
: ChristNU Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:44:18
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:37:11
: JohnDB Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:13:05
Are you stating that Jesus wasn't God but became God?
The text is very clear that Jesus attributed something to his Father that he himself did not possess.
The question you should ask is what was not good in Christ?
Did Jesus say that He was not good? You are making an assumption based on your pre-conceived notions.
Actually, this is one of the clearer passages of Jesus proclaiming His deity. Only God is good, Jesus is good, therefore Jesus is God.
Some serious deception going on there.
18And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God
-Jesus is not God
-Jesus rebukes for even implying he is good
-jesus moves his focus to the sole source of good -- God his Father.
Straight forward really.
You are reading your own prejudice into it. There is no rebuke and there is no denial of His own inherent goodness. There is simply the question the leads to the truth. Why call Jesus good if God alone is good? Why indeed.
Don't call me good only One is good that is God.
Your still reading into it. He does not say not to call Him good.
And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.
Yep. Jesus is good, and Jesus is God. A clear proclamation of His own deity.
If this allows you to sleep easy...if its any consolation I understand why it is you hold on to these beliefs so tightly.
But imagine the discovery if you opened your mind to a deeper truth.
It does allow me to sleep easy, thank you. I am glad you understand why I hold to biblical Christian beliefs...seeing how I am a Christian.
I would rather imagine what you might discover if you would open your mind to the Truth, the only God our Savior, Jesus Christ (Jude 1:24).
This is Jude 24
24Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy
: JohnDB Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 09:27:58
Hear oh Israel
The Lord
The Lord God is one.
Yes John
Not 2 or 3
ONE LORD
3Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort
Jesus has a God and a Father
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 09:30:25
: ChristNU Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 09:25:06
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 09:11:28
: ChristNU Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 09:07:35
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 09:04:07
: ChristNU Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 09:01:41
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 09:00:27
: ChristNU Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:57:56
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:51:34
: ChristNU Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:44:18
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:37:11
: JohnDB Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:13:05
Are you stating that Jesus wasn't God but became God?
The text is very clear that Jesus attributed something to his Father that he himself did not possess.
The question you should ask is what was not good in Christ?
Did Jesus say that He was not good? You are making an assumption based on your pre-conceived notions.
Actually, this is one of the clearer passages of Jesus proclaiming His deity. Only God is good, Jesus is good, therefore Jesus is God.
Some serious deception going on there.
18And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God
-Jesus is not God
-Jesus rebukes for even implying he is good
-jesus moves his focus to the sole source of good -- God his Father.
Straight forward really.
You are reading your own prejudice into it. There is no rebuke and there is no denial of His own inherent goodness. There is simply the question the leads to the truth. Why call Jesus good if God alone is good? Why indeed.
Don't call me good only One is good that is God.
Your still reading into it. He does not say not to call Him good.
And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.
Yep. Jesus is good, and Jesus is God. A clear proclamation of His own deity.
If this allows you to sleep easy...if its any consolation I understand why it is you hold on to these beliefs so tightly.
But imagine the discovery if you opened your mind to a deeper truth.
It does allow me to sleep easy, thank you. I am glad you understand why I hold to biblical Christian beliefs...seeing how I am a Christian.
I would rather imagine what you might discover if you would open your mind to the Truth, the only God our Savior, Jesus Christ (Jude 1:24).
This is Jude 24
24Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy
Thank you. Fixed. But do not strain out the gnat and swallow a camel. Or in other words do not miss the Truth that can set you free.
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 09:19:47
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jesus has a God.
You have thoroughly misunderstood what Jesus said concerning God and concerning His Father.
Jesus is God. Jesus has a Father. The Father is God. There is one God. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. They are one.
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 00:29:36
: grace Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 21:21:47
In James 2:16
It says that the body without the spirit is dead. It does not say the spirit dies, does it? Just the body!
Hi Grace.
and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? (Jas 2:16)
You might have done it again?
A.
did I give th wrong scripture again?
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 09:08:24
: JohnDB Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 09:03:55
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:37:11
: JohnDB Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 08:13:05
Are you stating that Jesus wasn't God but became God?
The text is very clear that Jesus attributed something to his Father that he himself did not possess.
The question you should ask is what was not good in Christ?
How about a simple "yes" or "no" answer?
and that is ALL I want.
No....Jesus could never be God nor could he ever become God.
How can the created become the creator?
A Son could never become the Father but it was sufficient that he become like his Father.
A.
Denying that Jesus is God denies Jesus the Saviour.
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Hebrews 1:8
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Titus 2:13
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Timothy 3:16
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Isaiah 7:14 (written: 712 BC (Before Christ)
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Matthew 1:23
For unto us a Child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder: and his name will be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6 (written: 712 BC (Before Christ)
And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people. Luke 7:16
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1
I and my Father are one. John 10:30
He that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? John 14:9
And Thomas answered and said unto him [Jesus], My Lord and my God. John 20:28
Lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Colossians 1:14-17
For in him [Jesus] dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. Colossians 2:9
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Timothy 3:16
: grace Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 10:31:08
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 00:29:36
: grace Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 21:21:47
In James 2:16
It says that the body without the spirit is dead. It does not say the spirit dies, does it? Just the body!
Hi Grace.
and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? (Jas 2:16)
You might have done it again?
A.
did I give th wrong scripture again?
I meant James 2:26..but you probably knew that...
For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.
You were to free to show my wrong scripture..but did not address anything in my post??? This shows that the body dies...not the spirit? So something in us is eternal!
: grace Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 10:31:08
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 00:29:36
: grace Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 21:21:47
In James 2:16
It says that the body without the spirit is dead. It does not say the spirit dies, does it? Just the body!
Hi Grace.
and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? (Jas 2:16)
You might have done it again?
A.
did I give th wrong scripture again?
Hi Grace,
Yes, but its ok...when ever people quote a passage to support a belief I like to look them up - it helps me to understand their reasoning.
A.
: grace Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 16:52:36
: grace Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 10:31:08
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 00:29:36
: grace Sun Jun 03, 2012 - 21:21:47
In James 2:16
It says that the body without the spirit is dead. It does not say the spirit dies, does it? Just the body!
Hi Grace.
and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? (Jas 2:16)
You might have done it again?
A.
did I give th wrong scripture again?
I meant James 2:16..but you probably knew that...
For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.
You were to free to show my wrong scripture..but did not address anything in my post??? This shows that the body dies...not the spirit? So something in us is eternal!
Yes Grace,
This is true in many respects.
If God were to withdraw his breath from us we would certainly and naturally die.
If he (God) set his heart (mind) upon man, if he (God) gather unto himself his spirit (breath) and his breath (wind); All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. (Job 34:14-15)
So Grace, James' understanding is correct; if God withdrew his Breath and Wind from us we all would return to dust...James 2 holds no teaching of man possessing an immortal part of God.
Please note the brackets () in the above verse show the actual meaning of the word being implied.
But dont take my word for that; feel oblidged to look yourself.
A.
For as the body without the spirit (breath) is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (Jas 2:26)
For this is true is it not?
If you stop breathing what happens?
However, Grace, if you took this to a spiritual level which is also intended.
When Adam was created "God spoke" His voice went forth and they were created.
We read this truth in - - Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created. (Psa 148:5)
So the Physical Creation is reliant on the command (voice) of God - how more so in terms of the message of hope within us?
The New Covenant which God shall use to regraft his people Israel back into the Olive Tree is it not a divine message taking root in the mind?
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: (Heb 8:10)
This is the definition of being in a covenant relationship with God...nothing to do at all with anything eternal in their nature - - the only thing eternal is the message - - full stop!
Enjoy
A.
How confused in the Theology Forum with threads like this one:
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/the-experience-of-mixing-soul-and-spirit/
(http://smileys.smilchat.net/smiley/expressive/agree/spasdaccord.gif)
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 20:48:12
How confused in the Theology Forum with threads like this one:
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/the-experience-of-mixing-soul-and-spirit/
(http://smileys.smilchat.net/smiley/expressive/agree/spasdaccord.gif)
You're telling me. Some people think they can explain things better than God can in His very word. Instead, they sow confusion.
(http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee267/Floatingaxe/Annoyed/babyface.gif)
: Lively Stone Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 21:01:42
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 20:48:12
How confused in the Theology Forum with threads like this one:
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/the-experience-of-mixing-soul-and-spirit/
(http://smileys.smilchat.net/smiley/expressive/agree/spasdaccord.gif)
You're telling me. Some people think they can explain things better than God can in His very word. Instead, they sow confusion.
(http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee267/Floatingaxe/Annoyed/babyface.gif)
Cute...is she yours?
The thread is a disaster... be thankful you didnt start it...the Father hates lies and falsehood.
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 21:03:54
: Lively Stone Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 21:01:42
: Alethos Mon Jun 04, 2012 - 20:48:12
How confused in the Theology Forum with threads like this one:
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/the-experience-of-mixing-soul-and-spirit/
(http://smileys.smilchat.net/smiley/expressive/agree/spasdaccord.gif)
You're telling me. Some people think they can explain things better than God can in His very word. Instead, they sow confusion.
(http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee267/Floatingaxe/Annoyed/babyface.gif)
Cute...is she yours?
The thread is a disaster... be thankful you didnt start it...the Father hates lies and falsehood.
Yes she is cute but only a gif from the internet.
I would never initiate a thread like that. It is just more of the same nonsense we are up against all the time.
: Alethos Fri Jun 01, 2012 - 22:54:44This consideration on the subject of the Soul hopes to be a very simple review of the word soul and how it is used in the Bible.
Discussion thread which motivated this thread can be read here
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/what-does-the-dividing-of-spirit-soul-and-body-look-like-pictorally/?PHPSESSID=790289897fe22b3f40483f659213850c
Firstly, it is important I put forth the Bible teaching of Soul in light of the above thread and its apparent confusion. It is not conceivable that man has an 'immortal soul' or any immortal element within him naturally for reason explored below.
And by naturally I mean within our flesh and blood nature - - has no good thing.
For I (Paul) know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. (Romans 7:18)
Here Paul is very particular to focus our attention on the flesh nature knowing that inherently within that nature is no good thing. He goes on to define why our nature is absent of any good thing, because a law works within its mortal frame that makes it bias toward sin and death.
We hope to attempt to clear up any confusion surrounding the word 'soul' in this study. While I expect many will interject and I believe this is valuable I would ask that you always provide Bible verses to support your understanding. In doing this we will have a common point of reference to work from.
And God is never wrong ::smile::
Hebrew = Nephesh
Greek = Psuche
Translated as such:
• Body
• Breath
• Creature
• Heart
• Mind
• Person
• Himself
Those reading this will recall how the soul of an animal is no different to the soul of a person; only that the word soul will infer different meaning depending on context.
The first occurrence of Soul in the Bible (animal):
And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. (Genesis 1:20)
Came across this which seems to agree..
Body, Soul, Spirit
Man, like all beings endowed with life, originated from two elements,—namely, from earthly material (עָפָר, אֲדָמָה), and from the Divine Spirit (רוּחַ), Gen. 2:7, comp. Ps. 104:29 f., 146:4. As in general נֶפֶשׁ, soul, originates in the בָּשָׂר, the flesh, by the union of spirit with matter, so in particular the human soul arises in the human body by the breathing of the divine breath (נִשְׁמַת חַיִּים) into the material frame of the human body. But although the life-spring of the רוּחַ, from which the soul arises, is common to man and beast, both do not originate from it in the same way. The souls of animals arise, like plants from the earth, as a consequence of the divine word of power, Gen. 1:24 (תּוֹצֵא הָאָרֶץ נֶפֶשׁ). Thus the creating spirit which entered in the beginning, 1:2, into matter, rules in them; their connection with the divine spring of life is through the medium of the common terrestrial creation. But the human soul does not spring from the earth; it is created by a special act of divine inbreathing; see 2:7 in connection with 1:26. The human body was formed from the earth before the soul; in it, therefore, those powers operate which are inherent to matter apart from the soul (a proposition which is of great importance, as Delitzsch rightly remarks). But the human body is still not an animated body; the powers existing in the material frame are not yet comprehended into a unity of life; the breath of life is communicated to this frame directly from God, and so the living man originates. According to the view of many, the specific difference between the life of the human soul and that of animals is expressed by the use of the term נְשָׁמָה in 2:7 (2). This, however, cannot be established, for in 7:22 ("All in whose nostrils was the breath of life died"), the exclusive reference of the expression נְשָׁמָה to man (as merely another expression for כֹּל הָאָדָם, ver. 21), coming between the general terms comprehending man and beast, which stand both before and after it, is not natural. In Deut. 20:16, Josh. 10:40, 11:11–14, כָּל־נְשָׁמָה denotes only men; but in these passages the special reference of the expression is made clear by the connection,—in the passage in Deuteronomy by ver. 18, and in the book of Joshua because from 8:2 onward the cattle are excepted from the חֵרֶם. Otherwise one might as well prove from Josh. 11:11, where כָּל־הַנֶּפֶשׁ is used exclusively of man, that the human soul alone is called נֶפֶשׁ. But it is correct that in the other places in the Old Testament in which נְשָׁמָה occurs it is never expressly used of the mere animal principle of life; p 150 comp. Isa. 42:5, Prov. 20:27, Job 32:8, and Ps. 150:6 (כֹּל הַנְּשָׁמָה). Thus the substance of the human soul is the divine spirit of life uniting itself with matter; the spirit is not merely the cause by reason of which the נֶפֶש contained beforehand in the body becomes living, as Gen. 2:7 has by some been understood (3). For in the עָפָר as such, in the structure of dust, there is, according to the Old Testament, as yet no נֶפֶשׁ, even latently. This is first in the בָּשָׂר, in the flesh; but the earthly materials do not become flesh until the רוּחַ has become united with it, 6:17, 7:15, Job 12:10, 34:14 f. It is no proof against this (as has further been objected) that in some passages (Lev. 21:11; Num. 6:6), the dead body from which, according to Gen. 35:18, the soul has departed, is called נֶפֶשׁ מֵת before it crumbles to dust. I believe this expression is to be understood as a euphemistic metonymy, just as we speak of a dead person without meaning to say that the personality lies in the body; or perhaps in this designation of a dead person the impression is expressed which the corpse makes immediately after death, as if the element of the soul had not yet entirely separated itself (thus Delitzsch) (4). But as the soul sprang from the spirit, the רוּחַ, and contains the substance of the spirit as the basis of its existence, the soul exists and lives also only by the power of the רוּחַ; in order to live, the soul which is called into existence must remain in connection with the source of its life. "God's spirit made me" (רוּחַ אֵל עָשָׂ֑תְנִי), says Job. 33:4, "and the breath of the Almighty animates me" (וְנִשְׁמַת שַׁדַּי תְחַיֵנִי, with the imperfect). The first sentence expresses the way in which the human soul is called into being; the second, the continuing condition of its subsistence. By the withdrawing of the רוּחַ the soul becomes wearied and weak, till at last in death it becomes a shadow, and enters the kingdom of the dead (comp. § 78); while by the רוּחַ streaming in, it receives vital energy. With this explanation the Old Testament usage in connection with the terms נֶפֶשׁ and רוּחַ becomes intelligible. In the soul, which sprang from the spirit, and exists continually through it, lies the individuality,—in the case of man his personality, his self, his ego; because man is not רוּחַ, but has it—he is soul. Hence only נַפְשִׁי, נַפְשְׁךָ, can stand for egomet ipse, tu ipse, etc., not רוּחִי, רוּחֲךָ, etc. (not so in Arabic); hence "soul" often stands for the whole person, Gen. 12:5, 17:14, Ezek. 18:4, etc. When man is exhausted by illness, his רוּחַ is corrupted within him, Job 17:1 (רוּחִי חֻבָּלָה), so that the soul still continues to vegetate wearily. When a person in a swoon comes to himself again, it is said his spirit returns to him, 1 Sam. 30:12 (וַתָּֽשָׁב נֶפֶשׁ) compared with Judg. 15:19. But when one dies, it is said the soul departs, Gen. 35:18; his soul is taken from him, 1 Kings 19:4, Jonah 4:3. When a dead person becomes alive again, is is said the soul returns again, 1 Kings 17:22 (וַתָּֽשָׁב נֶפֶשׁ). It is said of Jacob, whose sunken vital energy revived when he found his son again, that his spirit was quickened, Gen. 45:27 (וַתְּחִי רוּחַ). On the contrary, of one who is preserved in life it is said, חָיְתָה נֶפֶשׁ, [the soul lives] Jer. 38:17–20. When God rescues one from the jaws of death, it is said, Ps. 30:4, "Thou hast brought up my soul out of Sheol;" comp. Ps. 16:10 (5).—Man perceives and thinks by virtue of the spirit which animates him (Job 32:8; Prov. 20:27); wherefore it is said in 1 Kings 10:5, when the Queen of Sheba's comprehension was brought to a stand, that "there was no spirit in her more" (לֹא־הָיָה בָהּ עוֹד רוּחַ); but the p 151 perceiving and thinking subject itself is the נֶפֶש (comp. § 71). The impulse to act proceeds from the רוּחִ, Ex. 35:21; hence one who rules himself is a משֵׁל בְּרוּחוֹ, Prov. 16:32. But the acting subject is not the רוּחַ, but the נֶפֶשׁ; the soul is the subject which sins, Ezek. 18:4, etc. Love and attachment are of course a thing of the soul, Gen. 34:3 (וִתִּדְבַּק נַפְשׁוֹ) and ver. 8 (חָשְׁקָה נַפְשׁוֹ); and so in Cant. 5:6, the words of the beloved, נַפְשִׁי יָצְאָה, cannot be explained, "I was out of my senses" (as De Wette thinks), but the bride feels as if her very personality had gone forth from her to follow and seek her beloved. In many cases, indeed, נֶפֶשׁ and רוּחַ stand indifferently, according as the matter is looked upon—that is, to use Hofmann's words (Schriftbeweis, i. p. 296), according as "the personality is named after its special individual life, or after the living power which forms the condition of its special character." Thus it may be said on the one hand, "Why is thy spirit so stubborn?" (מַה־זֶּה רוּחֲךָ סָרָה), 1 Kings 21:5; on the other hand, "Why are thou so bowed down, O my soul?" (מַה־תּשְׁתּוחֲחִי נַפְשׁי), Ps. 42:12. Of impatience it may be said, "The soul is short" (וַתִּקְצַר נֶפֶשׁ), Num. 21:4, and "shortness of the spirit" (קֹצֶר רוּחַ), Ex. 6:9; compare Job 21:4. Trouble of heart is "bitterness of the spirit" (מֹרַת רוּחַ), Gen. 26:35; and of the soul (הֵמַר נַפְשִׁי), Job 27:2, it is said וַתּפָֽעֶם רוּחוֹ, Gen. 41:8, and נַפְשִׁי נִבְהֲלָה מְאֹד, Ps. 6:4. Compare with this in particular the climax in Isa. 26:9 (6). From all this it is clear that the Old Testament does not teach a trichotomy of the human being in the sense of body, soul, and spirit, as being originally three co-ordinate elements of man; rather the whole man is included in the בָּשָׂר and נֶפֶשׁ (body and soul), which spring from the union of the רוּחַ with matter, Ps. 84:3, Isa. 10:18; comp. Ps. 16:9. The רוּחַ forms in part the substance of the soul individualized in it, and in part, after the soul is established, the power and endowments which flow into it and can be withdrawn from it (7), (8)...Oehler, G. F., & Day, G. E. (1883). Theology of the Old Testament (pp. 149–152). Funk & Wagnalls.