I have yet to meet any self-proclaimed Christian who has accepted one hundred percent with no "if,
Are you a Christian?
Romans
7:19 For the good which I desire, I don't do; but the evil which I don't desire, that I practice.
7:20 But if what I don't desire, that I do, it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwells in me.
7:21 I find then the law, that, to me, while I desire to do good, evil is present.
7:22 For I delight in God's law after the inward man,
7:23 but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members.
7:24 What a wretched man I am! Who will deliver me out of the body of this death?
7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ, our Lord! So then with the mind, I myself serve God's law, but with the flesh, the sin's law.
: The Third One Sat Jun 09, 2012 - 17:35:12
I have yet to meet any self-proclaimed Christian who has accepted one hundred percent with no "if,
Why struggle? Sin has already lost. ::woo::
Am I a Christian? That depends on what you mean by "Christian." Do you mean am I a follower of the letters of Paul to the letter? Then, the answer is no. If you are asking me if I Am a follower of Jesus Christ, then the answer is yes. As I previously stated, I have yet to meet a Christian who has truly accepted that their sins have been taken away by what was done for them on the cross. They all still see their sins in their lives. So, it is difficult for me to include myself as a member of such a contradicting belief-system. I, myself, HAVE accepted 100% with no "if,
: The Third One Sat Jun 09, 2012 - 23:32:58
Am I a Christian? That depends on what you mean by "Christian." Do you mean am I a follower of the letters of Paul to the letter? Then, the answer is no. If you are asking me if I Am a follower of Jesus Christ, then the answer is yes. As I previously stated, I have yet to meet a Christian who has truly accepted that their sins have been taken away by what was done for them on the cross. They all still see their sins in their lives. So, it is difficult for me to include myself as a member of such a contradicting belief-system. I, myself, HAVE accepted 100% with no "if,
: The Third One Sat Jun 09, 2012 - 23:32:58
Am I a Christian? That depends on what you mean by "Christian." Do you mean am I a follower of the letters of Paul to the letter? Then, the answer is no. If you are asking me if I Am a follower of Jesus Christ, then the answer is yes. As I previously stated, I have yet to meet a Christian who has truly accepted that their sins have been taken away by what was done for them on the cross. They all still see their sins in their lives. So, it is difficult for me to include myself as a member of such a contradicting belief-system. I, myself, HAVE accepted 100% with no "if,
Paul himself IS the classic contradiction. Romans 7:19-25 is a clear indication of Paul's own non-acceptance. Certainly, it is Jesus Who can deliver Paul from Paul's sin, Paul's evilness and Paul's death. But PAUL is the one who has to accept it 100% with no "if,
Well then, Lively Stone, I am happy I came to this room. You said a key sentence that would indicate that, indeed, I HAVE found one. I hope to find more.
"We must learn to see ourselves as God (the Father) sees us." ::clappingoverhead::
I would caution you, however, as SEEING your sins as only being "as far (away) from (you) as the east is to the west.
It takes time for 'man' to shed sin....
that is why Paul says what he says in Rom.7.
If ALL our sins were forgiven and forgotten at a stroke why do we need to repent and stop sinning ??? It does not make sense.
True , Jesus dealt with all our sins on the cross ...but not for us to continue in sin.
When we first come to Christ all PAST sins are forgiven and forgotten Rom.3v25.
But from then on we also have a part in dealing with them through repentance. ::pondering::
: Cally Sat Jun 09, 2012 - 23:02:14
Romans
7:19 For the good which I desire, I don't do; but the evil which I don't desire, that I practice.
7:20 But if what I don't desire, that I do, it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwells in me.
7:21 I find then the law, that, to me, while I desire to do good, evil is present.
7:22 For I delight in God's law after the inward man,
7:23 but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members.
7:24 What a wretched man I am! Who will deliver me out of the body of this death?
7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ, our Lord! So then with the mind, I myself serve God's law, but with the flesh, the sin's law.
7:25 I thank God through jesus Christ .....is imissing God gives us the victory.
"if we walk in the light as he is in the light the n we have fellowship one with the other and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin"
We cannmot say we have no sin for the body is still subject to sin and death.
But even as the natural body is clansed with the blood as it continualy circulates it.
So also the spiritual body even hsi church is continualy cleansed from sin as we so walk .
The condition is a continual walk IN Christ in obedience to the Spirit of Christ.
Thus a child of God cannot sin
but IF we sin we have an advocate with the Father.
The promise then of continual victory is there.but it is on the condition of a walk and life of faith .
Aaaahhh....I see...?
::eatingpopcorn:
::lookaround::
I have peace with God but I am at war with sin in my life.
Unlike what things used to be which was to be at peace with sin and struggle with trying to have peace with God.
Dear Third one,
Have you ever sinned after accepting the Lord Jesus into your heart?
: The Third One Sat Jun 09, 2012 - 23:32:58
Am I a Christian? That depends on what you mean by "Christian." Do you mean am I a follower of the letters of Paul to the letter? Then, the answer is no. If you are asking me if I Am a follower of Jesus Christ, then the answer is yes. As I previously stated, I have yet to meet a Christian who has truly accepted that their sins have been taken away by what was done for them on the cross. They all still see their sins in their lives. So, it is difficult for me to include myself as a member of such a contradicting belief-system. I, myself, HAVE accepted 100% with no "if,
: The Third One Sat Jun 09, 2012 - 23:32:58
Am I a Christian? That depends on what you mean by "Christian." Do you mean am I a follower of the letters of Paul to the letter? Then, the answer is no. If you are asking me if I Am a follower of Jesus Christ, then the answer is yes.
It seems you follow Jesus but not the Holy Spirit, for the HS is the one that inspired the Apostle Paul to write most of the NT. It is written:
1 Cor 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
Please forgive me for my next statements, ....
But you also come across as someone that thinks he knows more than the rest... implying that after years of looking for someone as knowledgeable as you, you have now finally found one in this thread.
You were successful at impressing me with extreme immaturity. Prov 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.
Sorry ...
: The Third One Sun Jun 10, 2012 - 00:40:39
Paul himself IS the classic contradiction. Romans 7:19-25 is a clear indication of Paul's own non-acceptance. Certainly, it is Jesus Who can deliver Paul from Paul's sin, Paul's evilness and Paul's death. But PAUL is the one who has to accept it 100% with no "if,
: Talking Donkey Sun Jun 10, 2012 - 07:02:25
: The Third One Sat Jun 09, 2012 - 23:32:58
Am I a Christian? That depends on what you mean by "Christian." Do you mean am I a follower of the letters of Paul to the letter? Then, the answer is no. If you are asking me if I Am a follower of Jesus Christ, then the answer is yes.
It seems you follow Jesus but not the Holy Spirit, for the HS is the one that inspired the Apostle Paul to write most of the NT. It is written:
1 Cor 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
Please forgive me for my next statements, ....
But you also come across as someone that thinks he knows more than the rest... implying that after years of looking for someone as knowledgeable as you, you have now finally found one in this thread.
You were successful at impressing me with extreme immaturity. Prov 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.
Sorry ...
Amen. You took the words out of my mouth! Anyone who disses Paul cannot understand or receive from God, or the word or receive the teachings about Holy Spirit, and so remains as ignorant as a babe..
: The Third One Sun Jun 10, 2012 - 05:04:31
Has SOMBODY else out there actually accepted 100% with no "if,
Hi Lively Stone,
If you're not impressed by "someone that thinks he knows more than the rest
: The Third One Sun Jun 10, 2012 - 16:06:26
Hi Lively Stone,
If you're not impressed by "someone that thinks he knows more than the rest
: candy Sun Jun 10, 2012 - 06:06:17
Dear Third one,
Have you ever sinned after accepting the Lord Jesus into your heart?
I have "sinned
: The Third One Sat Jun 09, 2012 - 17:35:12
I have yet to meet any self-proclaimed Christian who has accepted one hundred percent with no "if,
: The Third One Sun Jun 10, 2012 - 17:04:21
: candy Sun Jun 10, 2012 - 06:06:17
Dear Third one,
Have you ever sinned after accepting the Lord Jesus into your heart?
I have "sinned
: The Third One Sun Jun 10, 2012 - 20:37:57
What's wrong with honkiedorri? (Actually, only the way it's spelled.) Hunky-dory is a very good place to be with God. Copasetic. Cool. On good speaking terms. I'm talking about perfect fellowship, with not anything standing in the way of that fellowship like "sin,
: MeMyself Sun Jun 10, 2012 - 20:57:30
: The Third One Sun Jun 10, 2012 - 20:37:57
What's wrong with honkiedorri? (Actually, only the way it's spelled.) Hunky-dory is a very good place to be with God. Copasetic. Cool. On good speaking terms. I'm talking about perfect fellowship, with not anything standing in the way of that fellowship like "sin,
: The Third One Sun Jun 10, 2012 - 21:20:34
: MeMyself Sun Jun 10, 2012 - 20:57:30
: The Third One Sun Jun 10, 2012 - 20:37:57
What's wrong with honkiedorri? (Actually, only the way it's spelled.) Hunky-dory is a very good place to be with God. Copasetic. Cool. On good speaking terms. I'm talking about perfect fellowship, with not anything standing in the way of that fellowship like "sin,
: MeMyself Sun Jun 10, 2012 - 21:26:52
: The Third One Sun Jun 10, 2012 - 21:20:34
: MeMyself Sun Jun 10, 2012 - 20:57:30
: The Third One Sun Jun 10, 2012 - 20:37:57
What's wrong with honkiedorri? (Actually, only the way it's spelled.) Hunky-dory is a very good place to be with God. Copasetic. Cool. On good speaking terms. I'm talking about perfect fellowship, with not anything standing in the way of that fellowship like "sin,
The Third One ,
can I ask how you view 2Pet.3v9 ?
Has 'repentance' any meaning in your 'freedom ?
Why would God want us to repent if we are totally freed from sin ? ::headscratch::
: Beta Mon Jun 11, 2012 - 05:09:02
The Third One ,
can I ask how you view 2Pet.3v9 ?
Has 'repentance' any meaning in your 'freedom ?
Why would God want us to repent if we are totally freed from sin ? ::headscratch::
I have been skimming through the posts in this thread and finally a sensible one!
It is not very heartening that after so many responses only you came up with something that actually used the grey cells. (Though of course it is possible that I have missed some thoughtful ones as well).
Kudos.
Peace and All Good
Teresa
: The Third One Mon Jun 11, 2012 - 01:40:42
I see. It's the Holy Spirit Who convicts us of our wrongdoing? So in answer to God's question at Genesis 3:11, when the Father asks Adam, "Who told thee that thou wast naked?
Jas 4:6 ...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
1 Pet 5:5 ... for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
As long as we are humble and recognize we need a Savior, and repent and are aware we grieve the Holy Spirit every time we sin, his blood covers all our sins.
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
But we stand fast in the faith, knowing our resume in the law cant cause us to love salvation.
Salvation can be lost if we lose faith.
Peace
: Beta Mon Jun 11, 2012 - 05:09:02
The Third One ,
can I ask how you view 2Pet.3v9 ?
Has 'repentance' any meaning in your 'freedom ?
Why would God want us to repent if we are totally freed from sin ? ::headscratch::
"Repent
: The Third One Sat Jun 09, 2012 - 17:35:12
I have yet to meet any self-proclaimed Christian who has accepted one hundred percent with no "if,
*******************************************************************
As for being in the defendant's box/or not judging anyone, surely you passed judgement on the Apostle Paul. Something God Himself did not do...............and, considering the wonderous miracles God wrought through his ministry, I find it quite odd that someone who professes to be a follower of Jesus the Christ would have such negative things to say about the person He chose to bring His Gospel to us.
********************************************************************
MeMyself, is disagreeing with Paul, passing judgment on Paul?
Paul disagrees with himself MUCH more than I do.
So far, in this room, I have been associated as being a "Paul hater
: The Third One Mon Jun 11, 2012 - 13:17:11
*******************************************************************
As for being in the defendant's box/or not judging anyone, surely you passed judgement on the Apostle Paul. Something God Himself did not do...............and, considering the wonderous miracles God wrought through his ministry, I find it quite odd that someone who professes to be a follower of Jesus the Christ would have such negative things to say about the person He chose to bring His Gospel to us.
********************************************************************
MeMyself, is disagreeing with Paul, passing judgment on Paul?
If you ask me this about the quote surrounded by **** Its not my quote
: The Third One Mon Jun 11, 2012 - 13:17:11
*******************************************************************
As for being in the defendant's box/or not judging anyone, surely you passed judgement on the Apostle Paul. Something God Himself did not do...............and, considering the wonderous miracles God wrought through his ministry, I find it quite odd that someone who professes to be a follower of Jesus the Christ would have such negative things to say about the person He chose to bring His Gospel to us.
********************************************************************
MeMyself, is disagreeing with Paul, passing judgment on Paul?
Paul disagrees with himself MUCH more than I do.
So far, in this room, I have been associated as being a "Paul hater
: The Third One Sat Jun 09, 2012 - 17:35:12
If you have truly accepted that Jesus Christ has died for your sins; therefore, your sins have been "taken away
: Beta Mon Jun 11, 2012 - 05:09:02
The Third One ,
can I ask how you view 2Pet.3v9 ?
Has 'repentance' any meaning in your 'freedom ?
Why would God want us to repent if we are totally freed from sin ? ::headscratch::
Because you are in sin until you repent. Christ came to take away the sins of this world, 1John 3:5, not simply cover them over with blood. Repentance is the only way they will be taken and replaced with His righteousness. The price has already been paid all we have to do is repent from ourselves and put on the Christ who is without sin, Christ in you.
Gary
There is not one person who doesn't sin.
The only perfect one was Christ.
Christ died for our sins and the gift of salvation is there for whomsoever will..but we have to accept that gift and repent.
Once saved doesn't mean we'll never sin again.
When we accept Christ into our hearts, we do our best to live as Christ would want, but we all fall short. When we do fall short, we need to repent.
I don't know anyone who's perfect outside of Christ.
I am one who believes 100% that Jesus took all my sins and placed them on the cross being made the final blood sacrifice for me and will always forgive me of my continued sin nature of the flesh until this corruptible flesh puts on that of incorruptible and this mortal puts on that of immortal when and only when Christ returns as the flesh will always sin as it is weak. We try to not sin, but occasion to the flesh we will sin as there is no one on this earth dead or alive that has never sinned even after being Spiritually born-again. Grace pardons our sin and mercy loves us even when we do sin, but grace does not give us a license to sin, but when we fall to the flesh Christ is always there to pick us up, dust us off and forgive us.
Grace - unmerited favor, Gods willingness to give us His power and authority even though we do not deserve it.
Matthew 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
1 Corinthians 15:51-56
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
: Hawkins Mon Jun 11, 2012 - 12:52:34
: The Third One Sat Jun 09, 2012 - 17:35:12
I have yet to meet any self-proclaimed Christian who has accepted one hundred percent with no "if,
: JohnDB Sun Jun 10, 2012 - 06:05:37
I have peace with God but I am at war with sin in my life.
Unlike what things used to be which was to be at peace with sin and struggle with trying to have peace with God.
Big time manna for that ....awesome response!
: PeterEnergy Mon Jun 11, 2012 - 14:44:56
: The Third One Sat Jun 09, 2012 - 17:35:12
If you have truly accepted that Jesus Christ has died for your sins; therefore, your sins have been "taken away
: MeMyself Mon Jun 11, 2012 - 13:24:45
: The Third One Mon Jun 11, 2012 - 13:17:11
*******************************************************************
As for being in the defendant's box/or not judging anyone, surely you passed judgement on the Apostle Paul. Something God Himself did not do...............and, considering the wonderous miracles God wrought through his ministry, I find it quite odd that someone who professes to be a follower of Jesus the Christ would have such negative things to say about the person He chose to bring His Gospel to us.
********************************************************************
MeMyself, is disagreeing with Paul, passing judgment on Paul?
If you ask me this about the quote surrounded by **** Its not my quote
The heading and question went together-- sorry I was asking MeMyself a question. Here's how it should have read:
MeMyself,
Is disagreeing with Paul, passing judgment on Paul?
: The Third One Sat Jun 09, 2012 - 23:32:58
Am I a Christian? That depends on what you mean by "Christian." Do you mean am I a follower of the letters of Paul to the letter? Then, the answer is no. If you are asking me if I Am a follower of Jesus Christ, then the answer is yes.
How do you know that you are a follower of Christ? What would you say constitues a follower of Christ?
As I previously stated, I have yet to meet a Christian who has truly accepted that their sins have been taken away by what was done for them on the cross.
Which sins? The ones they have committed before they repented or the ones they commited after they repented?
Why would Christ tell us to repent if repentance is not needed?
They all still see their sins in their lives.
Perhaps because they see it with the Light of Christ. Those who do not see their sins are in fact living in darkness.
When Isaiah was shown the glory of God the first thing that became clear to him was that He was a sinner. At the miraculous catch of fishes, confronted by the reality of Christ's mighty presence Peter said: Depart from me for a I am a sinful man.
Sin is a reality in our lives. To believe otherwise is to delude yourself.
So, it is difficult for me to include myself as a member of such a contradicting belief-system. I, myself, HAVE accepted 100% with no "if,
: The Third One Mon Jun 11, 2012 - 21:10:43
: MeMyself Mon Jun 11, 2012 - 13:24:45
: The Third One Mon Jun 11, 2012 - 13:17:11
*******************************************************************
As for being in the defendant's box/or not judging anyone, surely you passed judgement on the Apostle Paul. Something God Himself did not do...............and, considering the wonderous miracles God wrought through his ministry, I find it quite odd that someone who professes to be a follower of Jesus the Christ would have such negative things to say about the person He chose to bring His Gospel to us.
********************************************************************
MeMyself, is disagreeing with Paul, passing judgment on Paul?
If you ask me this about the quote surrounded by **** Its not my quote
The heading and question went together-- sorry I was asking MeMyself a question. Here's how it should have read:
MeMyself,
Is disagreeing with Paul, passing judgment on Paul?
Why are you asking me to account for a post I never made?
: Teresa Mon Jun 11, 2012 - 22:31:54
: The Third One Sat Jun 09, 2012 - 23:32:58
Am I a Christian? That depends on what you mean by "Christian." Do you mean am I a follower of the letters of Paul to the letter? Then, the answer is no. If you are asking me if I Am a follower of Jesus Christ, then the answer is yes.
How do you know that you are a follower of Christ? What would you say constitues a follower of Christ?
As I previously stated, I have yet to meet a Christian who has truly accepted that their sins have been taken away by what was done for them on the cross.
Which sins? The ones they have committed before they repented or the ones they commited after they repented?
Why would Christ tell us to repent if repentance is not needed?
They all still see their sins in their lives.
Perhaps because they see it with the Light of Christ. Those who do not see their sins are in fact living in darkness.
When Isaiah was shown the glory of God the first thing that became clear to him was that He was a sinner. At the miraculous catch of fishes, confronted by the reality of Christ's mighty presence Peter said: Depart from me for a I am a sinful man.
Sin is a reality in our lives. To believe otherwise is to delude yourself.
So, it is difficult for me to include myself as a member of such a contradicting belief-system. I, myself, HAVE accepted 100% with no "if,
: The Third One Tue Jun 12, 2012 - 02:49:01
Hello Teresa,
Q. How do you know that you are a follower of Christ? What would you say constitues a follower of Christ?
A. Your first part is a very personal question, and so, as opposed to a textbook answer, all I can give you is a very personal answer. To begin with, Jesus KNOWS the same God that I KNOW. That was crystal clear to me the first time I read the Gospels. To love our God, the Father and His Spirit, with all our heart, soul and mind is an absolute perfect expression of what we as children of God should do. And, yes, the second thing is very similar: to love others as we love ourselves.
That is a good answer: to love God and love others.
But the question is how do you know you love God? What does it mean to love God and others?
As to the second part of your question, that depends on the person. Little children are the best examples of followers of Christ.
When you say little children are the best examples of the followers of Christ, how does a grown person become like little children in terms of following Christ?
ALL sins. Sin is sin. .... Let's see, He died for venial sins, but not mortal ones. He died for unintentional sins, but not intentional ones, etc etc.
Therein is the problem with your theology. Christ's dying does not mean that having died everyone is suddenly saved. Paul said we need to work out our salvation in fear and trembling. Jesus said feed the hungry, clothe the naked.
The death of Jesus is not a talisman or magic. What He has done is given us the means for the forgiveness of sins. To accept it means to repent. If one does not repent of one's sins then that is not forgiven. That makes a mockery of the cross.
A. Actually, Jesus didn't tell us to "repent.
: The Third One Tue Jun 12, 2012 - 02:49:01
"Behold the Lamb of God Who takes AWAY the SINS of the world.
: The Third One Tue Jun 12, 2012 - 02:49:01
Any thinking person is convinced of their sin. If we have the knowledge of good and evil then we face the problem of sin. That is the inherent
Not quite. Because any thinking person behaves in the same way our first parents behaved when confronted with their disobedience – they rationalize. You have done that, I have done that. You just did that above when you said that we see that sin is nothing.
It is something – it is a disobedience and defiance of God. Until we face up to the fact that we are prideful and disobedient persons and stop rationalizing our faults away then the grace cannot penetrate.
That is why we need to accept that we are sinners and recognize and face up to that fact. But we also need to know that when we repent, all that is wiped away and we are once again reconciled to God.
I'm sincerely sorry to hear that for you. I'll pray for you, if you would like, and these others you're including with yourself.
And I am also sincerely sorry for you that you delude yourself in this way. But that is understandable because your concepts derive from a flawed understanding of what Christ's life, death and resurrection meant.
If you wish to hold on to the concept of sin, you have every right to do so,
Not just a right to do so but one that must hang on to because it is a reality. People who think they no longer sin delude themselves.
"ANYONE who sins is a slave of sin. But if the Son sets you free, you're FREE.
: The Third One Sat Jun 09, 2012 - 17:35:12
I have yet to meet any self-proclaimed Christian who has accepted one hundred percent with no "if,
: The Third One Mon Jun 11, 2012 - 16:36:27
Hawkins,
Are you hearing yourself? We will NOT pass the judgment of Law after believing in Christ. First, in all fairness, I guess you would need to clearly define what you mean by believing in Jesus Christ.
Personally, the issue I am talking about is ACCEPTING, 100%, with no if, ands or buts what Jesus Christ has done for us on the cross. After TRULY doing THAT, if you (as a creature of God) do NOT pass the judgment of Law on THAT and THAT ALONE, then good luck to you in your complicated and endless endeavor of achieving it for yourself.
When did Jesus ever teach you that the cross can only get you so far, and then the rest is up to you? What is it then? We get closer to where were supposed to be by going BEYOND the cross? The cross only gets you your salvation? And thats all? Then, YOU must IMPROVE (what has already been done for you) and go to WORK at the process of growing into sanctification and on to holiness?
Actually, Jesus set the goal of where you should BE at much higher than mere holiness. Jesus set the bar at PERFECTION. Try achieving THAT with a process that goes BEYOND what Jesus Christ has done for you on the cross. Well, perfection is something we just cannot achieve on this earth, is what rings throughout Christian circles. You can never be perfect. Now, dont be too hard on yourself, nobodys perfect.
But what does Jesus tell us? Matthew 5:48 BE perfect, therefore, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect.
Does He say AIM for perfection? No. Does he say WORK YOUR WAY TOWARD perfection? No. Does he say our LIFE GOAL should be to KEEP GOING TOWARDS perfection IN ORDER TO SEE HIM? No. He simply says we are to simply BE perfect. Period.
Does that happen to go against what your senior pastor says? None of us can ever achieve perfection in this world.
Yes, we CAN do it in this world. Very easily.
NO, we cant do it any other way than truly ACCEPTING what was done for us on the cross.
Everything Jesus taught us is that we are completely incapable of reaching that level by ANY human measure connected to our own righteousness or sanctification or possible degree of holiness that can be STRIVED for. The Pharisees followed the letter of the Law, tithing down to their last grain of salt. Sure, they had their hidden sin areas (mainly concerning justice, mercy and faith). BUT, they were considered within the Jewish religion to have achieved the upper level of sanctification and holiness that any godly man could ever imagine achieving in that day and age. And yet Jesus tells us, (Matthew 5:20) Unless your righteousness EXCEEDS that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
Would like to hear the remarkable Good News? Jesus gives us a HUGE clue in the verse that precedes the one above: (Matthew 5:19) Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least IN the kingdom of Heaven
Now wait a second...
You cant even get IN Heaven unless your righteousness EXCEEDS that of the most sanctified people around you. And yet, SINNERS will be IN the Kingdom of Heaven?
Least is certainly not the point.
IN is.
How can a sinners righteousness actually EXCEED the righteousness of the most sanctified and the most holy people around you? By us ALLOWING the One Whom God has sent to us to do it for us. To put it in plain English: By simply ACCEPTING 100%, with no if, ands or buts, what Jesus Christ has done for us on the cross.
And exactly WHAT DID Jesus Christ do for us on the cross? He died for our sins; our evilness; anything we could ever do that anyone could ever consider to be displeasing to God; He died for our totally unsanctified nature; our totally unholy nature and every single one of our imperfections.
Do you accept that? Truly?
Well then, if you TRULY ACCEPT, 100%, with no if, ands or buts that the blood of Christ washes all these things AWAY, well then what are you left with?
A PERFECT person in God the Fathers eye.
Now THAT'S metanoeo. Making a huge change of mind.
Thats how simple it is to do what Jesus has commanded you to do: BE perfect.
As a Christian, what is your response to all this?
Hallelujah?
Praise God?
Amen?
Or is it: this guy is wrong?
This guy doesnt know what hes talking about?
I think this guy has got a "complete wrong concept"?
This guy is giving WAY too much power to the cross?
Just too radical, huh? May I tell you something? Jesus Christ IS radical! Gods plan IS radical!
God HAD to come up with something RADICAL to get us out of the mess we've gotten ourselves into.
Your response should be Praise God! But I sense we are nowhere near there yet.
Just keep thowin up all those if, ands and buts into the mix. Thowin up is the perfect term. Vomit them up. Get them out and into the open. The Holy Spirit says, Get em out of your system. Please!
: The Third One Mon Jun 11, 2012 - 16:36:27
: Hawkins Mon Jun 11, 2012 - 12:52:34
: The Third One Sat Jun 09, 2012 - 17:35:12
I have yet to meet any self-proclaimed Christian who has accepted one hundred percent with no if, ands or buts what Jesus Christ has done for him or her on the cross. Every Christian I have met still considers him/herself a sinner and still sees his/her sins. If you truly see the cross, then you are blind to your sins. If you still see your sins, then you are blind to the cross.
Heres my question: If you have truly accepted that Jesus Christ has died for your sins; therefore, your sins have been taken away (as in, behold the Lamb of God Who takes away the sins of the world), then why are you still struggling with sin and why do you still see sin in your life?
I think you've got a complete wrong concept.
Sin is always a measure against Law. We are the sinners simply means without Jesus, we will be judged by Law and we will be dead. God doesn't count our sin against us in terms of Law. it by no means says that we are the dead in front His Law. We are still the dead, till we will be given the incorruptable spiritual body.
Jesus Christ takes away our sin simply means we will no longer be subject to the judgment of Law, it by no means says that we will pass the judgment of Law after believing in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ never said that after believing in Him will be automatically Holy. It is in the contrary that He warned us that we need to be Holy in order to see Him. Thus keep going towards holiness will be the life goal of each and every Christian.
Hawkins,
Are you hearing yourself? We will NOT pass the judgment of Law after believing in Christ. First, in all fairness, I guess you would need to clearly define what you mean by believing in Jesus Christ.
Personally, the issue I am talking about is ACCEPTING, 100%, with no if, ands or buts what Jesus Christ has done for us on the cross. After TRULY doing THAT, if you (as a creature of God) do NOT pass the judgment of Law on THAT and THAT ALONE, then good luck to you in your complicated and endless endeavor of achieving it for yourself.
When did Jesus ever teach you that the cross can only get you so far, and then the rest is up to you? What is it then? We get closer to where were supposed to be by going BEYOND the cross? The cross only gets you your salvation? And thats all? Then, YOU must IMPROVE (what has already been done for you) and go to WORK at the process of growing into sanctification and on to holiness?
Actually, Jesus set the goal of where you should BE at much higher than mere holiness. Jesus set the bar at PERFECTION. Try achieving THAT with a process that goes BEYOND what Jesus Christ has done for you on the cross. Well, perfection is something we just cannot achieve on this earth, is what rings throughout Christian circles. You can never be perfect. Now, dont be too hard on yourself, nobodys perfect.
But what does Jesus tell us? Matthew 5:48 BE perfect, therefore, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect.
Does He say AIM for perfection? No. Does he say WORK YOUR WAY TOWARD perfection? No. Does he say our LIFE GOAL should be to KEEP GOING TOWARDS perfection IN ORDER TO SEE HIM? No. He simply says we are to simply BE perfect. Period.
Does that happen to go against what your senior pastor says? None of us can ever achieve perfection in this world.
Yes, we CAN do it in this world. Very easily.
NO, we cant do it any other way than truly ACCEPTING what was done for us on the cross.
Everything Jesus taught us is that we are completely incapable of reaching that level by ANY human measure connected to our own righteousness or sanctification or possible degree of holiness that can be STRIVED for. The Pharisees followed the letter of the Law, tithing down to their last grain of salt. Sure, they had their hidden sin areas (mainly concerning justice, mercy and faith). BUT, they were considered within the Jewish religion to have achieved the upper level of sanctification and holiness that any godly man could ever imagine achieving in that day and age. And yet Jesus tells us, (Matthew 5:20) Unless your righteousness EXCEEDS that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
Would like to hear the remarkable Good News? Jesus gives us a HUGE clue in the verse that precedes the one above: (Matthew 5:19) Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least IN the kingdom of Heaven
Now wait a second...
You cant even get IN Heaven unless your righteousness EXCEEDS that of the most sanctified people around you. And yet, SINNERS will be IN the Kingdom of Heaven?
Least is certainly not the point.
IN is.
How can a sinners righteousness actually EXCEED the righteousness of the most sanctified and the most holy people around you? By us ALLOWING the One Whom God has sent to us to do it for us. To put it in plain English: By simply ACCEPTING 100%, with no if, ands or buts, what Jesus Christ has done for us on the cross.
And exactly WHAT DID Jesus Christ do for us on the cross? He died for our sins; our evilness; anything we could ever do that anyone could ever consider to be displeasing to God; He died for our totally unsanctified nature; our totally unholy nature and every single one of our imperfections.
Do you accept that? Truly?
Well then, if you TRULY ACCEPT, 100%, with no if, ands or buts that the blood of Christ washes all these things AWAY, well then what are you left with?
A PERFECT person in God the Fathers eye.
Now THAT'S metanoeo. Making a huge change of mind.
Thats how simple it is to do what Jesus has commanded you to do: BE perfect.
As a Christian, what is your response to all this?
Hallelujah?
Praise God?
Amen?
Or is it: this guy is wrong?
This guy doesnt know what hes talking about?
I think this guy has got a "complete wrong concept"?
This guy is giving WAY too much power to the cross?
Just too radical, huh? May I tell you something? Jesus Christ IS radical! Gods plan IS radical!
God HAD to come up with something RADICAL to get us out of the mess we've gotten ourselves into.
Your response should be Praise God! But I sense we are nowhere near there yet.
Just keep thowin up all those if, ands and buts into the mix. Thowin up is the perfect term. Vomit them up. Get them out and into the open. The Holy Spirit says, Get em out of your system. Please!
You said a lot here, but they all remain your own opinions or rather misunderstanding of what the Bible said. Use my explanation the contradiction shall be gone. However you insist on using your explanation to create the contradiction itself then to use this manifested (by you) contradiction to challenge others. First the exact purpsoe of Jesus Christ's sacrifice is that we cannot achieve sinlessness by ourselves to pass the judgment of the Law. Second the Bible by no means says that from the moment He's put on the cross, the followers magically became saints in a flash of seconds. If you insist on saying, you are twisting what the Bible is tryin to say. And in reality, no Christians are perfect unless what you are trying to say is that either the Christians in majority are not Christians or Jesus's magical sacrifice lost its effect and thus failed. Either way, your doctrine is a false doctrine and thus fails.
By and large, you failed to explain why Jesus Christ still urge us to be holy while the believers are already holy and even more than holy (according to you). As to your question of what is meant by "believe in Jesus Christ", it means we believe in Jesus Christ in accordance to what the covenant says and subject to Jesus Christ's judgment on whether our faith is qualified to be in Heaven or not. In order for us to see clearly what our faith could be, we need good work as such an indicator to tell ourselves about our own faith.
Hello again Teresa,
You write, "Yes, indeed He takes away the sins of the world but not quite in the way you think.
Third one - do you even understand what sin is? ANYTHING that in any way misses or falls short of God's glory. Every emotion, action, or even situation that you have no control over that you are involved in that is less that God's best is sin.
And you have the gall to say you have no sin? Are you already dead and in heaven? If so you are making us sin by conversing with you.
: The Third One Wed Jun 13, 2012 - 03:48:39
Hello again Teresa,
You write, "Yes, indeed He takes away the sins of the world but not quite in the way you think.
: The Third One Wed Jun 13, 2012 - 03:48:39
The beginning starts with forgiveness, which is a one hundred percent two-way street, and simply trusting in what was done for me on the cross.
No, it requires an acknowledgement of the evil things that you have done wilfully and an acceptance of God's forgiveness.
If the Son sets you free, you're FREE. I believe Him. Who do YOU believe?
Jesus. And He said more than those. But it seems you are capable of understanding only a few lines from the Bible.
I'll ask you another question: Which is more important, what Jesus Christ did for you on the cross? Or you accepting it?
Who said that there is gradation of importance? You make those kinds of dichotomies because you read teeny weeny bits of Scripture.
Who are you preaching to when you state: "Salvation is not just a matter of being plucked here from earth and transported to heaven just because Christ has died.
: DaveW Wed Jun 13, 2012 - 05:42:09
Third one - do you even understand what sin is? ANYTHING that in any way misses or falls short of God's glory. Every emotion, action, or even situation that you have no control over that you are involved in that is less that God's best is sin.
And you have the gall to say you have no sin? Are you already dead and in heaven? If so you are making us sin by conversing with you.
Hi DaveW,
SEEING sin, your definition of sin is a very good and accurate one. It is an impossible thing for a thinking creature who has the knowledge of good and evil to ever be able to shed himself from sin. Here's MY "BUT
: The Third One Wed Jun 13, 2012 - 23:49:10
Hi DaveW,
SEEING sin, your definition of sin is a very good and accurate one. It is an impossible thing for a thinking creature who has the knowledge of good and evil to ever be able to shed himself from sin. Here's MY "BUT
Dear Teresa,
You have a very strong conviction and a very strong faith. Let's get together on this very important issue, quit our silly squabbling over the scraps and the gristle, and get to the real meat of the issue. I'm speaking in culinary terms, because you said you had to go cook. I bet it was something sensational you had to put together for it to have dragged you away from this...(It's making me hungry just thinking about it!) ...because I know, what we are discussing here is very important to you. And that's a very good thing. You wouldn't be taking the amount of time it takes to discuss this if it wasn't. Neither would I. We both have lives to lead. And this takes a lot of time to do this, and do it properly.
Allow me to skip all the way down to your last question. It's a good one. "Where does it say in the Bible that forgiveness depends on accepting what was done on the cross?
: Lively Stone Thu Jun 14, 2012 - 00:19:06
God knows we are not sinless, nor will we be---but we will be complete and perfected one Day. Only Jesus is sinless. We have all committed sin, and if we know Jesus, we are forgiven people, continuously being cleansed by the blood of Jesus.
No one can say they have no sin and be considered a person with integrity.
1 John 1:8-10
8 If we claim we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and not living in the truth. 9 But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we are calling God a liar and showing that his word has no place in our hearts.
Brilliant! Very well put!
I hope Third pays attention.
Peace and All Good
Teresa
: Lively Stone Thu Jun 14, 2012 - 00:19:06
: The Third One Wed Jun 13, 2012 - 23:49:10
Hi DaveW,
SEEING sin, your definition of sin is a very good and accurate one. It is an impossible thing for a thinking creature who has the knowledge of good and evil to ever be able to shed himself from sin. Here's MY "BUT
: The Third One Thu Jun 14, 2012 - 02:46:21
L. Stone,
Look, I started this blog only to find out if anyone else has accepted what was done for them on the cross 100%. If you've accepted it 1%. Hurray! That's better than not accepting it at all.
What Jesus has done for me on the cross I have accepted 100% or I wouldn't be saved. It's a dumb question.
But now, we're back to this again.
What IS this? Are you trying to sell me that I HAVEN'T accepted it 100%, when I have? "Get real Third One. No one buys your assertion.
: The Third One Wed Jun 13, 2012 - 23:49:10
I DIDN'T do it by myself.
I have truly accepted, 100%, that it has been done for me. If this incredible, wonderful, heroic, God-saving thing had NOT been done for me, I would be the one condemning my OWN self before God;
I was not talking about legal standing because of the cross.
I was talking about your
actual perfomance.
Last August I and my son were exiting a computer store and I dragged my foot as we went into the parking lot, I took a fall and broke my left arm. Since you agree with my definition of sin, would you agree that dragging my foot was a sin? that falling was a sin? and that having a broken arm was a sin? It certainly was less than God's glory. Not having my foot a millimeter higher was a sin. falling was a sin and breaking my arm was a sin. My being in pain from the injuries (and the PT afterward) were all sins.
I realize that they are all covered by the blood and before God it is as if it never happend. But that is not my experience.
We live in a fallen world and are subjected to sin day in and day out.
: The Third One Thu Jun 14, 2012 - 00:34:05
First of all: Matthew 11:28-30 Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest . TAKE my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is EASY, and my burden is LIGHT.
The original Greek reads : TAKE UP the yoke of me upon you.
There are many verses, but Matthew 20:28 says it all the very best. One simple verse. In the original Greek, at Mat 20:28, Jesus says: "The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve and to GIVE the life of Him as a ransom for many.
: DaveW Thu Jun 14, 2012 - 06:30:13
: The Third One Wed Jun 13, 2012 - 23:49:10
I DIDN'T do it by myself.
I have truly accepted, 100%, that it has been done for me. If this incredible, wonderful, heroic, God-saving thing had NOT been done for me, I would be the one condemning my OWN self before God;
I was not talking about legal standing because of the cross.
I was talking about your actual perfomance.
Last August I and my son were exiting a computer store and I dragged my foot as we went into the parking lot, I took a fall and broke my left arm. Since you agree with my definition of sin, would you agree that dragging my foot was a sin? that falling was a sin? and that having a broken arm was a sin? It certainly was less than God's glory. Not having my foot a millimeter higher was a sin. falling was a sin and breaking my arm was a sin. My being in pain from the injuries (and the PT afterward) were all sins.
I realize that they are all covered by the blood and before God it is as if it never happend. But that is not my experience.
We live in a fallen world and are subjected to sin day in and day out.
Sorry Dave but I disagree with that post.
Physical ailments and all that is wrong with the world was brought about by sin but not everything that happens to our bodies is sin.
Sin is a conscious act - a wilfull defiance and disobedience of God's will. Unless you intentionally harmed yourself then your physical ailment is not a sin. If you slipped because someone pushed you (intending to do you harm) then the sin is of that person's not yours.
This is why any discussion of sin must refer back to Genesis - when Adam and Eve because of pride (wanting to be Gods - and thus determine for themselves what is good or evil) willfully disobeyed God. Any sin will always have that at its heart : Pride - I/Me/Myself decide what is right or wrong and then the execution of a choice that goes against what God has decreed - disobedience.
This is why the 10 Commandments begin with : I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have other gods before me.
In the final analysis all sins are idolatries - a making a God of ourselves by refusing to follow God's will.
Becoming sick or being in an accident are not sins but effects of sin. Sin has cosmic effects. We tend to think sometimes that this or that sin is private so harms no one but every sin affects humanity.
Sin begins in the heart. That is why God said that instead of writing His law in stone, He will write it in our hearts.
The story of Israel after the giving of the law and the making of the covenant was a long series of failures to keep to the covenant - to obey the laws of God. This is so because the Israelites saw the law as an imposition that curtails their freedom and their happiness. But in actual fact, the Laws were given for their flourishing. But so long as they saw it as an imposition it was hard for them to keep. So God said that He will write it in their hearts. By doing this they will learn to love the Law and thus obey the law in the true spirit of obedience - not just legalistically.
The Blood of Christ does not merely cover our sins - they wash them away. The reason people think that way is because of a forensic understanding of justification. We are washed clean by the Blood of the Lamb.
Peace and All Good
Teresa
: Teresa Thu Jun 14, 2012 - 08:39:39
Sin is a conscious act - a wilfull defiance and disobedience of God's will.
What you describe has another word: transgression.
Sin = anything that misses the mark
Transgression = willful disobedience
Iniquity = transgenerational effects and predispositions caused by sins and transgressions.
They are all different.
My discussion on this is with third one. He has yet to show how he is physically sinless without watering down the definition of sin to only include willful transgression.
I have found that those who claim sinlessness (whether for them selves or only in theory) have to water down the definition to make it work.
In both testaments the words used are archery terms meaning to miss the mark/target. You are actually aiming and trying to hit it but you miss.
The problem is that sinning often times feels good. Don't lie about it.
It's the truth. Try not doing something you like to do for the rest of your life, see how that works out for you.
God is not angry at us when we sin. He expects it, honestly. We're sinful beings. It's just the way it is.
: DaveW Thu Jun 14, 2012 - 09:11:33
Sin = anything that misses the mark
Transgression = willful disobedience
Iniquity = transgenerational effects and predispositions caused by sins and transgressions.
They are all different.
I don't know where you got that defintion but it is wrong.
Since every creature from the time they were created missed the mark then every creature is sin - the universe is sin.
So God must be in the habit of making sin.
Sin pertains to morality. Diseases and accident do no have morality.
Sins are transgressions and because they are transgressions against God then when we sin we miss the mark. But this missing the mark applies only to moral choices - ie. choices that have to do with God's commands.
Peace and All Good
Teresa
: MaddSkillz Thu Jun 14, 2012 - 09:31:03
The problem is that sinning often times feels good. Don't lie about it.
It's the truth. Try not doing something you like to do for the rest of your life, see how that works out for you.
God is not angry at us when we sin. He expects it, honestly. We're sinful beings. It's just the way it is.
If you are doing it because it feels good I would suspect you are moving from sin to transgression.
And NO, God does
not expect us to sin. That waters down the definition in a different way.
: Teresa Thu Jun 14, 2012 - 09:47:53: DaveW
Sin = anything that misses the mark
Transgression = willful disobedience
Iniquity = transgenerational effects and predispositions caused by sins and transgressions.
They are all different.
I don't know where you got that defintion but it is wrong.
Since every creature from the time they were created missed the mark then every creature is sin - the universe is sin.
So God must be in the habit of making sin.
Sin pertains to morality. Diseases and accident do no have morality.
This is the primary Hebrew word for sin. It and its variants make up most of the instances.
Strongs H 2398
chata' khaw-taw'
a primitive root;
properly, to miss; hence (figuratively and generally) to sin; by inference, to forfeit, lack, expiate, repent, (causatively) lead astray, condemn:--bear the blame, cleanse, commit (sin), by fault, harm he hath done, loss, miss, (make) offend(-er), offer for sin, purge, purify (self), make reconciliation, (cause, make) sin(-ful, -ness), trespass.
And here is the primary Greek word:
Strongs G 264
hamartano ham-ar-tan'-o
perhaps from 1 (as a negative particle) and the base of 3313;
properly, to miss the mark (and so not share in the prize), i.e. (figuratively) to err, especially (morally) to sin:--for your faults, offend, sin, trespass.
Doesn't anyone ever pay attention to the original languages? ::frustrated::
: DaveW Thu Jun 14, 2012 - 09:53:24
: MaddSkillz Thu Jun 14, 2012 - 09:31:03
The problem is that sinning often times feels good. Don't lie about it.
It's the truth. Try not doing something you like to do for the rest of your life, see how that works out for you.
God is not angry at us when we sin. He expects it, honestly. We're sinful beings. It's just the way it is.
If you are doing it because it feels good I would suspect you are moving from sin to transgression.
And NO, God does not expect us to sin. That waters down the definition in a different way.
Of course he does expect us to. No person can live a sinless life. Does a parent expect their child(ren) to mess up? Of course.
It's no different with God.
"Well, it is quite a different story now...you have made a correction...."as far as my father and I are concerned". It is only from God's point of view that we are considered pure and holy. Our born again spirits are pure and holy places.
: The Third One Thu Jun 14, 2012 - 13:37:17
"Well, it is quite a different story now...you have made a correction...."as far as my father and I are concerned". It is only from God's point of view that we are considered pure and holy. Our born again spirits are pure and holy places.
: GaryMac Sun Jun 10, 2012 - 17:44:43
: The Third One Sat Jun 09, 2012 - 17:35:12
I have yet to meet any self-proclaimed Christian who has accepted one hundred percent with no "if,
: DaveW Thu Jun 14, 2012 - 10:01:35
This is the primary Hebrew word for sin. It and its variants make up most of the instances.
Strongs H 2398
chata' khaw-taw'
a primitive root; properly, to miss; hence (figuratively and generally) to sin; by inference, to forfeit, lack, expiate, repent, (causatively) lead astray, condemn:--bear the blame, cleanse, commit (sin), by fault, harm he hath done, loss, miss, (make) offend(-er), offer for sin, purge, purify (self), make reconciliation, (cause, make) sin(-ful, -ness), trespass.
And here is the primary Greek word:
Strongs G 264
hamartano ham-ar-tan'-o
perhaps from 1 (as a negative particle) and the base of 3313; properly, to miss the mark (and so not share in the prize), i.e. (figuratively) to err, especially (morally) to sin:--for your faults, offend, sin, trespass.
Doesn't anyone ever pay attention to the original languages? ::frustrated::
If you define sin as missing the mark, then you are saying that the archer who did not make the bulls eye sinned, the driver who ended up on the river due to a slipper road sinned, the basketball player who failed to get the ball into the net sinned. They all missed the mark.
Also, the fact that there are people born deformed, nature run amuck, means that God must have sinned because He failed to hit the mark.
Can you now see the problem with your over generalized definition?
Sin is indeed to miss the mark but sin is not simply missing the mark or any mark. The mark that we are missing is holiness.
Here is an excerpt from Wiki on Jewish views on sin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_views_on_sin
Judaism regards the violation of any of the divine commandments to be a sin. Judaism teaches that sin is an act, and not a state of being.
Hebrew Bible
The first mention of sin as a noun is a zoomorphism, with sin (khattath) crouching at Cain's door. The first as a verb is Abimelech being prevented from sinning (khata) against God in a dream.
People do have the ability to master this inclination (Genesis 4:7) and choose good over evil (conscience)(Psalm 37:27).[1] Judaism uses the term "sin" to include violations of Jewish law that are not necessarily a lapse in morality. According to the Jewish Encyclopedia: "Man is responsible for sin because he is endowed with free will ("behirah"); yet he is by nature frail, and the tendency of the mind is to evil: "For the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth" (Gen. viii. 21; Yoma 20a; Sanh. 105a). Therefore God in His mercy allowed people to repent and be forgiven."[2] Judaism holds that all people sin at various points in their lives, and hold that God tempers justice with mercy.
Terminology
Hebrew has several other words for sin beyond khata, each with its own specific meaning. The word pesha, or "trespass", means a sin done out of rebelliousness. The word aveira means "transgression". And the word avone, or "iniquity", means a sin done out of moral failing. The word most commonly translated simply as "sin", khata, literally means "to go astray." Just as Jewish law, halakha provides the proper "way" (or path) to live, sin involves straying from that path.
Judaism teaches that humans are born with free will, and morally neutral, with both a yetzer hatov, (literally, "the good inclination", in some views, a tendency towards goodness, in others, a tendency towards having a productive life and a tendency to be concerned with others) and a yetzer hara, (literally "the evil inclination", in some views, a tendency towards evil, and in others, a tendency towards base or animal behavior and a tendency to be selfish). The yetzer hara in some forms of Judaism means that Satan is merely an idiom or parable, rather than the fallen angel of traditional Christianity.
So as you can, the Hebrew original meaning refers back to the missing of a moral mark - a choosing of evil over good and thus a transgression against God.
Peace and All Good
Teresa
: MaddSkillz Thu Jun 14, 2012 - 10:18:27
Of course he does expect us to. No person can live a sinless life. Does a parent expect their child(ren) to mess up? Of course.
It's no different with God.
Quite wrong. Parents don't expect their children to mess up. They expect their children to do good but they know that their children will mess up.
God expects us to do good because at every choice (for evil or good) He gives us the grace to choose the good. But He knows that sometimes we will cooperate with grace sometimes we won't.
God expects us to be good otherwise sending His Son is totally pointless.
Peace and All Good
Teresa
We've heard plenty of examples of "BUT
: Teresa Fri Jun 15, 2012 - 01:09:20
If you define sin as missing the mark, then you are saying that the archer who did not make the bulls eye sinned, the driver who ended up on the river due to a slipper road sinned, the basketball player who failed to get the ball into the net sinned. They all missed the mark.
YES! Now you are getting it.
Also, the fact that there are people born deformed, nature run amuck, means that God must have sinned because He failed to hit the mark.
Can you now see the problem with your over generalized definition?
That makes a false assumption that God planned them that way. Not so. Birth defects, etc are a product of life in a fallen world. That is not God's fault, it is Adam's.
Sin is indeed to miss the mark but sin is not simply missing the mark or any mark. The mark that we are missing is holiness.
Agreed. But please understand to Sin (miss the mark of Holiness) one must be AIMING at Holiness.
Biblically if you are NOT aiming at holiness you are in the range of transgression.
Here is an excerpt from Wiki on Jewish views on sin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_views_on_sin
Yes I know all that. It is from modern day Rabbinic Judaism, not necessarily the Judaism of the bible or that of the first century. Like christianity, modern Judaism has stretched the word 'sin' to include transgressions and iniquity.
I do understand the interplay between yetzer harah and yetzer hatov (bad inclination and good inclination). I am currently studying a book from traditional Judaism on Mussar called "Everyday Holiness" and those terms come up often.
Sin is separation from God. Killing, Stealing, Chasing the neighbor's wife is not sin, those things are only result from that sin, from that separation. If you are one with God as you are supposed to be, He in you and you in Him as one, then it is impossible to be in sin. 1 John 3:5-9
In this flesh is no good thing, the purpose of Christ, Christ in you, Gods Spirit in you, is to open up that which cannot sin, is perfect, and cant be corrupted by the flesh, carnality.
One doesn't even know what sin is until he receive from God what it is to be righteous. Paul thought he was doing God great favors by killing Christians until it was opened to him what it is to have Gods Spirit in him.
Adam didn't know sin until it was opened to him and he became like God to know the difference. This is nothing new. The law for the flesh is sin and death and if you break any of them you are in jeopardy for that violation. But this has not one thing to do with Gods Spirit in you which makes one holy as He is holy.
The laws for the flesh is not the same as the law for Spirit.
Spirit laws are be one with Me, I in you and you in Me as one. Be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect, walk in the light as I AM in the light, have His same mind, same Spirit. And if any one of these laws are broken then you are guilty of all and haven't a clue what it is to be without sin. Only Christ be in you can open up that what is perfect. Same as He was in Jesus.
[/quote]
But....
To miss the resurrection is to miss life. And life is the only solution to death.
[/quote]
Agreed— another of the many approaches Paul could have used to help the Corinthians understand the importance of the resurrection, without denouncing the power that the Corinthians had found in the cross.
[/quote]
It is the "approach" Paul used...
Romans 5:10
"For if, while we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!"
The cross was the means to an end. To confuse the means for the end is to rob the Lord Jesus of that for which He came. He came that you might have life.
[/quote]
When you say "It IS the approach Paul used...to impress upon the Corinthians the importance of the Resurrection
: The Third One Wed Jun 20, 2012 - 16:40:56
When you say "It IS the approach Paul used...to impress upon the Corinthians the importance of the Resurrection
: ChristNU Wed Jun 20, 2012 - 17:34:41
: The Third One Wed Jun 20, 2012 - 16:40:56
When you say "It IS the approach Paul used...to impress upon the Corinthians the importance of the Resurrection
: The Third One Sat Jun 09, 2012 - 17:35:12
I have yet to meet any self-proclaimed Christian who has accepted one hundred percent with no "if,
: Ladonia Thu Jun 21, 2012 - 04:25:01
: The Third One Sat Jun 09, 2012 - 17:35:12
I have yet to meet any self-proclaimed Christian who has accepted one hundred percent with no "if,
: GaryMac Wed Jun 20, 2012 - 12:05:03
Sin is separation from God. Killing, Stealing, Chasing the neighbor's wife is not sin, those things are only result from that sin, from that separation. If you are one with God as you are supposed to be, He in you and you in Him as one, then it is impossible to be in sin. 1 John 3:5-9
I would submit that you are taking an english word and assigning your own definition to it with complete disregard for the definitions of the underlying Greek and Hebrew words.
That is akin to rewriting the bible to fit your own ideas and not God's.
A dead Jesus hanging on a cross cannot save anyone - and there is no power in a piece of wood. When Jesus cried, "It is finished," from the cross as He was dying, it was a cry of victory. He had set in motion all of God's intent for the restoration of mankind. Redemption, whereby we are "bought with a price" (I Cor. 6:20; 7:23) which has been "paid in full" by the death of Jesus, is the remedial aspect, whereas regeneration is the restorative factor wherein the life of God once again indwells the spirit of a man who is receptive to such in faith.
The "we" is all who have been made alive with Him. He lives, and because He lives He can offer life to every man, woman and child. And His life is the only solution to death.
ChristNU,
To merely "set
: The Third One Fri Jun 22, 2012 - 02:37:00
A dead Jesus hanging on a cross cannot save anyone - and there is no power in a piece of wood. When Jesus cried, "It is finished," from the cross as He was dying, it was a cry of victory. He had set in motion all of God's intent for the restoration of mankind. Redemption, whereby we are "bought with a price" (I Cor. 6:20; 7:23) which has been "paid in full" by the death of Jesus, is the remedial aspect, whereas regeneration is the restorative factor wherein the life of God once again indwells the spirit of a man who is receptive to such in faith.
The "we" is all who have been made alive with Him. He lives, and because He lives He can offer life to every man, woman and child. And His life is the only solution to death.
ChristNU,
To merely "set
: ChristNU Fri Jun 22, 2012 - 06:13:51
: The Third One Fri Jun 22, 2012 - 02:37:00
A dead Jesus hanging on a cross cannot save anyone - and there is no power in a piece of wood. When Jesus cried, "It is finished," from the cross as He was dying, it was a cry of victory. He had set in motion all of God's intent for the restoration of mankind. Redemption, whereby we are "bought with a price" (I Cor. 6:20; 7:23) which has been "paid in full" by the death of Jesus, is the remedial aspect, whereas regeneration is the restorative factor wherein the life of God once again indwells the spirit of a man who is receptive to such in faith.
The "we" is all who have been made alive with Him. He lives, and because He lives He can offer life to every man, woman and child. And His life is the only solution to death.
ChristNU,
To merely "set
The cross is the critical pivot point in Christianity where the flesh man is no more and only the Spirit man remains. Once Jesus was no more assessable to the ones who followed him in the flesh, they had to rely on Spirit for their understanding, and this is Gods origional intent. Jesus said himself that in that day, you will ask me nohing but go to the Father for yourself and He will give it to you.
I think the very thing that keeps people from understanding the whole purpose of God sending Jesus is they hang onto that flesh man instead of letting him go and receiving in themselves the same Spirit that man had and left behind. His flesh becoming a stumbling block for Gods intent for us to have His same Spirit, and be one with God as Jesus was one with Him and this is the very reason his flesh is gone.
We rely on Jesus to show us the way just as those did who walked with him in the flesh, but there has to be at some point where we see God as Spirit and not a man, in order to have in you that what Jesus had in himself. That god of flesh has to be extinguished in order to receive in you the God of Spirit and be one with Him, and the purpose of the cross is death to that flesh god and resurrection of that Spirit God that was in that man. And it is Christ in you who is raised, you being that person of Christ that God sent Jesus to teach us to be and give to us to be and that comes only with the death to our flesh mentality, carnality, a setting aside our flesh selves and resurrection of Christ in you. Behold the kingdom of God is within you just as Jesus said it is.
Jesus cast himself down from that poinacle man places him on and walked among the common, but man in his doctrines place him right back upon it where he is not accessable at all.
: GaryMac Fri Jun 22, 2012 - 09:46:39
The cross is the critical pivot point in Christianity where the flesh man is no more and only the Spirit man remains. Once Jesus was no more assessable to the ones who followed him in the flesh, they had to rely on Spirit for their understanding, and this is Gods origional intent. Jesus said himself that in that day, you will ask me nohing but go to the Father for yourself and He will give it to you.
I think the very thing that keeps people from understanding the whole purpose of God sending Jesus is they hang onto that flesh man instead of letting him go and receiving in themselves the same Spirit that man had and left behind. His flesh becoming a stumbling block for Gods intent for us to have His same Spirit, and be one with God as Jesus was one with Him and this is the very reason his flesh is gone.
We rely on Jesus to show us the way just as those did who walked with him in the flesh, but there has to be at some point where we see God as Spirit and not a man, in order to have in you that what Jesus had in himself. That god of flesh has to be extinguished in order to receive in you the God of Spirit and be one with Him, and the purpose of the cross is death to that flesh god and resurrection of that Spirit God that was in that man. And it is Christ in you who is raised, you being that person of Christ that God sent Jesus to teach us to be and give to us to be and that comes only with the death to our flesh mentality, carnality, a setting aside our flesh selves and resurrection of Christ in you. Behold the kingdom of God is within you just as Jesus said it is.
Jesus cast himself down from that poinacle man places him on and walked among the common, but man in his doctrines place him right back upon it where he is not accessable at all.
So in addition to denying the diety of Jesus Christ and the Trinity, you also deny the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ?
: ChristNU Fri Jun 22, 2012 - 10:00:29
: GaryMac Fri Jun 22, 2012 - 09:46:39
The cross is the critical pivot point in Christianity where the flesh man is no more and only the Spirit man remains. Once Jesus was no more assessable to the ones who followed him in the flesh, they had to rely on Spirit for their understanding, and this is Gods origional intent. Jesus said himself that in that day, you will ask me nohing but go to the Father for yourself and He will give it to you.
I think the very thing that keeps people from understanding the whole purpose of God sending Jesus is they hang onto that flesh man instead of letting him go and receiving in themselves the same Spirit that man had and left behind. His flesh becoming a stumbling block for Gods intent for us to have His same Spirit, and be one with God as Jesus was one with Him and this is the very reason his flesh is gone.
We rely on Jesus to show us the way just as those did who walked with him in the flesh, but there has to be at some point where we see God as Spirit and not a man, in order to have in you that what Jesus had in himself. That god of flesh has to be extinguished in order to receive in you the God of Spirit and be one with Him, and the purpose of the cross is death to that flesh god and resurrection of that Spirit God that was in that man. And it is Christ in you who is raised, you being that person of Christ that God sent Jesus to teach us to be and give to us to be and that comes only with the death to our flesh mentality, carnality, a setting aside our flesh selves and resurrection of Christ in you. Behold the kingdom of God is within you just as Jesus said it is.
Jesus cast himself down from that poinacle man places him on and walked among the common, but man in his doctrines place him right back upon it where he is not accessable at all.
So in addition to denying the diety of Jesus Christ and the Trinity, you also deny the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ?
First, I do not deny the deity of Jesus Christ, His deity is at work in me. Second --no I do not deny the resurrection of Jesus Christ, He is risen in me. Third I do not reject the trinity, My Father is God, I am His son and His Spirit resides in me, we eare one, these three are one. See John 17.
Because of the absence of His resurrection in you you will never understand what the risen Christ is about until He is risen. Untill then you only wait for that risen Christ to happen. I have experienced the risen Christ and we all have who He is risen in us making us alive in Him and one with God as we are suposed to be. That cant happen without Christ risen in you. It is you who is suposed to be that person of Christ.
: GaryMac Fri Jun 22, 2012 - 11:19:26
: ChristNU Fri Jun 22, 2012 - 10:00:29
: GaryMac Fri Jun 22, 2012 - 09:46:39
The cross is the critical pivot point in Christianity where the flesh man is no more and only the Spirit man remains. Once Jesus was no more assessable to the ones who followed him in the flesh, they had to rely on Spirit for their understanding, and this is Gods origional intent. Jesus said himself that in that day, you will ask me nohing but go to the Father for yourself and He will give it to you.
I think the very thing that keeps people from understanding the whole purpose of God sending Jesus is they hang onto that flesh man instead of letting him go and receiving in themselves the same Spirit that man had and left behind. His flesh becoming a stumbling block for Gods intent for us to have His same Spirit, and be one with God as Jesus was one with Him and this is the very reason his flesh is gone.
We rely on Jesus to show us the way just as those did who walked with him in the flesh, but there has to be at some point where we see God as Spirit and not a man, in order to have in you that what Jesus had in himself. That god of flesh has to be extinguished in order to receive in you the God of Spirit and be one with Him, and the purpose of the cross is death to that flesh god and resurrection of that Spirit God that was in that man. And it is Christ in you who is raised, you being that person of Christ that God sent Jesus to teach us to be and give to us to be and that comes only with the death to our flesh mentality, carnality, a setting aside our flesh selves and resurrection of Christ in you. Behold the kingdom of God is within you just as Jesus said it is.
Jesus cast himself down from that poinacle man places him on and walked among the common, but man in his doctrines place him right back upon it where he is not accessable at all.
So in addition to denying the diety of Jesus Christ and the Trinity, you also deny the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ?
First, I do not deny the deity of Jesus Christ, His deity is at work in me. Second --no I do not deny the resurrection of Jesus Christ, He is risen in me. Third I do not reject the trinity, My Father is God, I am His son and His Spirit resides in me, we eare one, these three are one. See John 17.
Because of the absence of His resurrection in you you will never understand what the risen Christ is about until He is risen. Untill then you only wait for that risen Christ to happen. I have experienced the risen Christ and we all have who He is risen in us making us alive in Him and one with God as we are suposed to be. That cant happen without Christ risen in you. It is you who is suposed to be that person of Christ.
I have to tell ya dude, this is some seriously disturbing stuff coming from you. You simply do not get to make up your own definitions and then proclaim you are in agreement with Christianity based on those perverted definitions. You can have your own definitions, just do not try and proclaim them to be in agreement with what Christians believe. Seriously disturbing..... ::frown:: ::frown::
ChristNU,
Your Q. "You are working very hard to cling to only half of the gospel to the exclusion of the other half, why?
Why all the disdain for the Pauline scriptures? Why do you rail against Gods written word as if you have the option of taking what suits you and rejecting what does not? Where is all this vitriol coming from?
I guess that's the difference in being a dogmatized Christian and accepting one hundred percent with no "if,
: ChristNU Fri Jun 22, 2012 - 20:53:22
Why all the disdain for the Pauline scriptures? Why do you rail against Gods written word as if you have the option of taking what suits you and rejecting what does not? Where is all this vitriol coming from?
ChristNU,
Where is all this vitriol coming from?
The better question would be: Where is all this indifference to the truth coming from?
Much of what Paul wrote holds perfectly true by the Holy Spirit. Paul was operating at a particularly high level of spirituality. And, at that level, both sides had equal and, at many times, constant access to him: spirits of Light as well as spirits of Darkness. Paul was the first Biblical writer to declare that the desolate one can appear as an angel of Light. He didn't come up with that little tidbit by reading the back of a Fruit-Loops box, nor did he get it from anything written in Genesis up unto the Gospel of St. John (in the order as WE know it). He shared that bit of information with us from his personal experience. The spirits HAVE to be tested.
ALL of what Paul wrote, from Romans 6:15 and on, should be diligently tested. What Paul wrote that does not hold true is ascertained by the testimony of the Holy Spirit. It is certainly NOT held in question by "what suits me and what does not suit me.
: Tyler Fri Jun 22, 2012 - 21:25:17
I guess that's the difference in being a dogmatized Christian and accepting one hundred percent with no "if,
: The Third One Sat Jun 23, 2012 - 05:36:25
: ChristNU Fri Jun 22, 2012 - 20:53:22
Why all the disdain for the Pauline scriptures? Why do you rail against Gods written word as if you have the option of taking what suits you and rejecting what does not? Where is all this vitriol coming from?
ChristNU,
Where is all this vitriol coming from?
The better question would be: Where is all this indifference to the truth coming from?
Much of what Paul wrote holds perfectly true by the Holy Spirit. Paul was operating at a particularly high level of spirituality. And, at that level, both sides had equal and, at many times, constant access to him: spirits of Light as well as spirits of Darkness. Paul was the first Biblical writer to declare that the desolate one can appear as an angel of Light. He didn't come up with that little tidbit by reading the back of a Fruit-Loops box, nor did he get it from anything written in Genesis up unto the Gospel of St. John (in the order as WE know it). He shared that bit of information with us from his personal experience. The spirits HAVE to be tested.
ALL of what Paul wrote, from Romans 6:15 and on, should be diligently tested. What Paul wrote that does not hold true is ascertained by the testimony of the Holy Spirit. It is certainly NOT held in question by "what suits me and what does not suit me.
Hi again, ChristNU,
The Apostle Paul wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
No doubt. I'll repeat, much of what Paul wrote holds perfectly true by the Holy Spirit.
It is the written word of God, it is that against which all other "spirits" are tested.
Really? So you test the Holy Spirit AGAINST Paul, Paul being set apart as the Holy standard? The Pentateuch, the major prophets, the Psalms of David, the wisdom of Solomon, all tested against Paul, Paul being set apart as the Holy standard? And whenever there are discrepancies between what Paul says and what Jesus says, you test the Gospels and the red printed Word that comes from the mouth of our Lord and Savior AGAINST Paul, Paul, again, set aside as the Holy standard?
There are no contradictions or conflicts within it, there are only gaps in your own understanding.
Whatever gets you through the night.
: The Third One Sat Jun 23, 2012 - 12:28:06
Hi again, ChristNU,
The Apostle Paul wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
No doubt. I'll repeat, much of what Paul wrote holds perfectly true by the Holy Spirit.
It is the written word of God, it is that against which all other "spirits" are tested.
Really? So you test the Holy Spirit AGAINST Paul, Paul being set apart as the Holy standard? The Pentateuch, the major prophets, the Psalms of David, the wisdom of Solomon, all tested against Paul, Paul being set apart as the Holy standard? And whenever there are discrepancies between what Paul says and what Jesus says, you test the Gospels and the red printed Word that comes from the mouth of our Lord and Savior AGAINST Paul, Paul, again, set aside as the Holy standard?
There are no contradictions or conflicts within it, there are only gaps in your own understanding.
Whatever gets you through the night.
It is the written word of God that all is tested against, of which the Pauline scriptures are.
All of the bible is the inspired word of God, not just part or "much" of it. There are no discrepancies between what Paul writes and what Jesus says. Once again, if you see what appear to be discrepancies , or contradictions or conflicts, it is due to gaps in your own understanding.
: ChristNU Sat Jun 23, 2012 - 13:32:09
: The Third One Sat Jun 23, 2012 - 12:28:06
Hi again, ChristNU,
The Apostle Paul wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
No doubt. I'll repeat, much of what Paul wrote holds perfectly true by the Holy Spirit.
It is the written word of God, it is that against which all other "spirits" are tested.
Really? So you test the Holy Spirit AGAINST Paul, Paul being set apart as the Holy standard? The Pentateuch, the major prophets, the Psalms of David, the wisdom of Solomon, all tested against Paul, Paul being set apart as the Holy standard? And whenever there are discrepancies between what Paul says and what Jesus says, you test the Gospels and the red printed Word that comes from the mouth of our Lord and Savior AGAINST Paul, Paul, again, set aside as the Holy standard?
There are no contradictions or conflicts within it, there are only gaps in your own understanding.
Whatever gets you through the night.
It is the written word of God that all is tested against, of which the Pauline scriptures are. All of the bible is the inspired word of God, not just part or "much" of it. There are no discrepancies between what Paul writes and what Jesus says. Once again, if you see what appear to be discrepancies , or contradictions or conflicts, it is due to gaps in your own understanding.
Okay ChristNU,
Perhaps you can set me straight. Concerning the first of the many "gaps in my understanding
: The Third One Sun Jun 24, 2012 - 03:28:30
Okay ChristNU,
Perhaps you can set me straight. Concerning the first of the many "gaps in my understanding
Hello ChistNU,
What OF this man, "living with his father's wife,
The really sad thing is that you think you have a problem with Paul, but you don't...you have a problem with God.
: ChristNU Sun Jun 24, 2012 - 16:28:03
The really sad thing is that you think you have a problem with Paul, but you don't...you have a problem with God.
Quite revealing, ChristNU,
That comment illustrates one of the huge differences between us. I don't see Paul AS God.
: The Third One Sun Jun 24, 2012 - 18:03:36
: ChristNU Sun Jun 24, 2012 - 16:28:03
The really sad thing is that you think you have a problem with Paul, but you don't...you have a problem with God.
Quite revealing, ChristNU,
That comment illustrates one of the huge differences between us. I don't see Paul AS God.
Hi TheThirdOne,
Can I just cut it and say that "Paul of Christianity" is the fulfillment of "King Saul of Israel"...even their names are the same. Paul was "God-ordained" (our Father gave the authorization)...just like God gave authorization to King Saul who was a punishment to Israel for wanting a king of flesh instead of him.
No...one shouldn't see Paul as God, but one may see the authority of God through the letters of Paul...and from what I read, that's what ChristNU appears to believe in his statement; that God worked the next phase of his plan through Paul.
----
I'll also like to respond to one of your previous posts and see what you think.
: The Third One Sun Jun 24, 2012 - 16:19:13
The most important question I asked you, concerning this devilment, you did not answer. Why aren't YOU practicing this "sacred
: The Third One Sat Jun 09, 2012 - 17:35:12
I have yet to meet any self-proclaimed Christian who has accepted one hundred percent with no "if,
Hello Yahshua,
I don't mind you "cutting in
Yahshua-2)
(Hello again, Yahshua,)
(continued...)
Most of you (and some of you by your own admission) are DEAD. I am one of the LIVING ONES. Get the embalming fluid out of your ears and listen to what one who IS ALIVE is telling you. Because I might not be able to help you THEN. As Jesus said: in the Gospel of St. Thomas, verse 59: "Look to the living one as long as you live, otherwise you might die and then try to see the living one, and you will be unable to see."
Even AT the very judgment, many of you WILL actually fret about accepting it 100% with no "if,
Yahshua-3
(Hello, yet again, Yahshua,)
(conclusion...)
You write: "notice that John is called Christ's servant in Revelation 1:1 (for example)...and the word 'servant' means 'bond-slave.'
: white stone Mon Jun 25, 2012 - 21:21:25
: The Third One Sat Jun 09, 2012 - 17:35:12
I have yet to meet any self-proclaimed Christian who has accepted one hundred percent with no "if,
: GaryMac Wed Jun 27, 2012 - 10:17:42
Listening to people who say they are just dirty ole sinners and will always be a sinner havent experienced what it is to be without sin and righteous.
You mean what it is to be decieved? This was written to believers:
1 Jn 1.8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Seems in these the One who God does send to take away the sins -- somewhere along the line faild in these to do so, Christ failed them for His purpose for them.
Christ failed to take away their sin? ... somehow that just doesnt compute. Guess it sounds correct to some because by their testimony we know them.
Sin = falling short or in any way failing to hit the mark of God's righteousness and glory.
While we are saved from all sins past and present when we repent, that does not mean we will not sin again and subsequently need to repent again.
A sinner is of the devil. It is the manifestation of the Christ, Christ in you, that destroys this sin mentality.
Tell me, Do you believe everything EXACTLY correct according to the bible?
And can you forsee a situation where you sin if you do xxx and you sin if you DON'T do xxx?
: white stone Mon Jun 25, 2012 - 21:21:25
: The Third One Sat Jun 09, 2012 - 17:35:12
I have yet to meet any self-proclaimed Christian who has accepted one hundred percent with no "if,
Hello The Third One,
First off, thank you for your lengthy reply...and I DID take my time; thanks for the warning ::smile:: . But I didn't know I would spark so much venom from you, TTO...and three posts at that. It wasn't all venom (name calling; putting down, etc.) though, some of it was also you glorying in your own knowledge of scripture and other works ::noworries:: [rim shot].
...but can I ask you to bear a little fruit of "gentleness" next time? Since you profess to have the true spirit in you (as opposed to many of us who don't), I at minimum know that one with the true spirit would display the character of Christ by being little more loving and a little less judgmental, you know? Since such is the character that Christ displayed and since he said we would know true prophets verses false prophets by their fruits, I'd hope you'd at least want to feign the fruits of the spirit.
Also, In reading all you've shared, at first it seemed like attack, attack, attack...but in reading it again, it seems as though you're more so trying to convince yourself of these things...This may be a sign to you that some (not all) of what you believe isn't in harmony with the truth.
Many things you say don't harmonize with ALL the scriptures as a whole (which it must do), and then you promote other works and doctrines not supported by scripture. So I'll just limit my reply to the subject of Paul and leave you my peace.
----
I COMPLETELY agree with you on the point that many Christians idolize Paul...it's no different from today's believers idolizing other Priests, Evangelists, Pastors, Bishops, Arch-Bishops & Popes..and even "greater Theologians". To say a word against these "men of God" is tantamount to blasphemy for many believers.
I'm reminded of the words of Christ in Revelation 2:6 where he speaks of the practice of the Nicolaitans (nico = "conquer" + lait = "Laity"). Christ "HATES" top-down rule over laity.
: The Third One Wed Jun 27, 2012 - 04:29:34Yahshua, you make a dubious statement when you say, "one may see the authority of God through the letters of Paul." That's actually true. Then again, one can see the absolute authority of God through the flight of a bumblebee. Paul does not possess, neither in his person nor in his letters, the card-blanche authority of God. As to his letters, there is no doubt that some of his writing is inspired by the Holy Spirit. When it is ALL tested against the Holy Spirit, A LOT of Paul's writing rings true — and some of it does not.
Here, let me explain what I meant...
In 1 Samuel 8, Israel wanted a fleshly king over them, even though God made it clear that HE was their king. Samuel relayed God's message to Israel but they insisted to be like other nations. So God complied and gave them King Saul, warning Israel that they'd regret it. God, through Samuel, anointed King Saul to rule over them. Israel celebrated Saul and lived under his rule for a while until Saul became corrupt (disobedient to the commands of God, which God knew he would eventually do...hence the warning). Through Saul, Israel was corrupted by outsiders who brought their pagan practices. Israel reaped the consequences for rejecting God and demanding a fleshly leader.
Next God, through Samuel, anoints David (a man after his own heart) as the next king. David ABSOLUTELY would NOT kill King Saul or show anything but respect for King Saul, for no other reason but for the fact that Saul had the God-given authority to rule...even as bad as he was. Even when Saul was eventually killed, one account says that David killed the man who killed Saul as a punishment for striking down a King ordained by God. Again, David is a man after God's own heart.
Note: God anointed a corruptible man (in Saul) with authority to lead his people (for a time) as a punishment/consequence for their rejection of him...and anyone who went against this appointment was going against the authority of God himself (as evident through the testimony of David).
"What has been is what will be..." (Ecc 1:9)
God anointed a corruptible man (in Saul of Tarshish) with authority [garments laid down at his feet] to lead his people for a time. Through Paul, God's people learned new truths about the gospel...but also through Paul, God's people became introduced to "the structure" of Roman institutions ("Top-down" ruling system), which eventually gave way to the easy integration of Rome's pagan religious doctrines & practices. But even with this eventual corruption of the Church, it still doesn't change the fact that Paul was given authority by God to do everything he did. This God-given authority that Paul had over the church (for better or worse) is evident through his letters (as compared to how the church is currently molded). The fact that 1 Samuel 8 is prophetically fulfilled in Paul's ministry & influence in the church is a testament to God's hand in it. This is what I meant with my statement.
You can take Nebuchadnezzar as another example: God, through Daniel had to remind King Neb that he was chosen as an instrument of God to punish Israel; that his kingship was not from him but was ordained by God.
If someone is in authority as a leader, God ordained it. Paul was in leadership authority.
: The Third One Wed Jun 27, 2012 - 04:29:34Your first posting of scripture is Matthew 18:15-17. And in doing so you assert that: "Christ said the same thing that Paul said, so no contradiction here" in regard to Paul turning brothers "over to Satan for the destruction of their flesh."
[...]
First of all, Jesus is talking about the sensible steps you should take if your brother should sin against YOU. That within itself eliminates any comparison against the two situations involving Paul.
...But TTO, with love, you're tending a Pharisees response here; you're making an exception for Christ's words concerning "the target" (or specific situation) of a sin rather than applying Christ's words to the sin itself. You are "lawyering" by focusing more on the letter than on the spirit of what Christ's means. To drive home my point I ask you:
Is God only concerned with sins specifically against HIM ...or is he concerned with sin? Likewise, can we assume his Son is equally concerned with sin itself rather than dealing with sin in "specific situations"?: The Third One Wed Jun 27, 2012 - 04:29:34As good practicing Christians, [sarcasm] don't you know that you're supposed to involve SATAN as a part of the salvation process? What's wrong with you people? Since it's PAUL doing it, why aren't you trying to figure out SOME WAY to make it WORK within your belief system? Well, you actually ARE, BY TRYING TO DEFEND IT. EVEN AGAINST WHAT JESUS SAYS.
Well speaking governmentally, TTO, Satan has just as much "right" within his own limited authority as Christ has within his supreme authority over all.
This is how God HIMSELF governs through the salvation process: using Christ & Satan.Have you ever asked yourself why didn't Christ simply destroy the Legion of demons in the possessed man? Why did Christ merely allow Legion to enter into the pigs instead? Surely Christ had the power to destroy the demons...but he didn't.
Note the question Legion asked Christ: "have you come to torment us BEFORE THE TIME?" Legion was pointing out that they have a "right" to possess people for a specific length of time ordained by God, however Legion's "authority" over whom they'd possess was superseded by Christ's supreme authority over everything.
Our Father governs by granting authority to both the powers of light AND the powers of darkness, making the power of light stronger than dark. Why do you think there were two prominent, yet opposing, trees placed in the garden from which to choose?
"I set before you life AND death, so choose life." (Deut 30:15).
"I create the light AND the darkness/calamity...I Yah do ALL these things." (Isa 45:7).
Christ is the arm of love, mercy and life...while Satan is the arm of hate, judgment, and death. Satan has the "right" to rule this flesh, and all of the fleshy kingdoms of this world were placed under his rule...while Christ has the authority to rule over all, so anyone "in Christ" is over and above all the authority of Satan;
"the woman clothed with the sun [Christ] with the moon [Satan] under her feet (Rev 12:1).
"WHATEVER you bind...WHATEVER you lose." (Matt 18:18)
- I'll give an even better example as to how God governs and brings people to salvation.
Please read the story of Esther. It's a pretty quick read. In it, pay attention to the authority given to specific characters, remembering that "
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" (Romans 1:20).
King Ahasuerus = Our Heavenly Father.
Haman = Satan.
Mordecai = the Son of man.
Hadassah (Esther) = the bride.
The Jews = God's people.
Note the king decreed that Haman – who HATED the Jews – have authority to judge the Jew in death. Hadassah asked the king to overturn this decree but the king said "
my word can not be undone" because the king's authority is SUPREME. The king's word can not be voided. However, even though judgment was decreed, a way of salvation was also established by that same king. The king told his bride she had the authority to establish a "new" decree under his seal. Her new decree didn't erase Haman's decree, but hers superseded it...so every Jew had a choice as to which decree would apply to them: Listen to Ester and live, or do not listen to Ester and die at the hand of Haman.
Christ established a "new" testament that God's people can live by, but that didn't negate the "old" testament which is the authority Satan operates under since the law was broken (sin & judgment/death/suffering). God's people can either abide in Christ (under his umbrella) by doing what he said to do, or abide in Satan (continuing to be subject to sin & death).
- But for another example to show God's process of Salvation using Satan; recall the children of Israel in Egypt (a living parable). It was God who hardened Pharaoh's heart which eventually caused the army of Egypt to chase down Israel and try to destroy them, but it was also God that parted the sea. If Israel wasn't being chased it wouldn't have been baptized in the Red Sea.
This is God's process of salvation: Bring one to his cross with evil/death, then offer to set him free with salvation/life.- Or we can read the book of Job. Notice how Satan had to ask permission to test Job. In fact, notice that it was God who pointed out his servant Job to Satan. It was also God who gave Satan authority over Job's flesh, property, and family...all so that God could see if Job would rebuke him.
Yes...God himself has used Satan in the salvation process.: The Third One Wed Jun 27, 2012 - 04:29:34Turning anyone — much less a brother — over to Satan, for the destruction of their flesh, is pure La-la Land.
God did this to mankind, as the examples above show. The flesh profits nothing, TTO. Satan has rightful authority over this flesh. For another example Reread Revelation 11, knowing that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit; if John was given a reed to "measure" (i.e. a "rule"; set boundaries in) the temple and holy place, but the "outer court" was commanded to be given to the gentiles [the kingdoms rightfully under Satan's authority] to walk on...
what does the "outer court" represent prophetically?: The Third One Wed Jun 27, 2012 - 04:29:34I'll ask you, Yahshua, the same question I asked ChristNU, since you are trying to defend this practice: do you participate, yourself, in [delivering men to Satan]?
Sure, we ALL practice it whether knowingly or unknowingly, and especially against ourselves. For example, when we nurture fear in a specific situation instead of nurturing faith and peace (when concerning medical, financial, emotional, situations, etc), we exit Christ's authority and deliver ourselves under Satan's authority. When we speak ill of another person and wish (or expect) harm or misfortune to fall on them we are exercising the authority of destruction; Satan's authority. When we act prideful and full of ourselves, or in any way other than how Christ acted [not bearing the fruits of the spirit] we exit Christ and deliver ourselves to other darker spirits under Satan.
: The Third One Wed Jun 27, 2012 - 04:29:34You will find that not one of these [Revelation] verses you cite are attributed to Jesus or to God the Father. For, indeed, much greater theologians than you have remarkably and quite correctly separated the verses, [...]
??? No, I'm not a great theologian...but I have faith that the scriptures were written, not for theologians only (as that would imply "nicolaitanism", which Christ also hates), but for simple folk like me.
At any rate, in the very first verse of Revelation it explains that the ENTIRE revelation [all of the messages & visions contained] is from God...through Christ...through to his servants. Revelation 1:1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God [The Father] gave unto him [The Son], to shew unto his servants [John and the rest of us] things which must shortly come to pass; and he [God] sent and signified it by his angel [messenger] unto his servant John:
But as to your comment about "greater theologians"; how can you judge people who would hold Paul with such high regard when just now (and even further in your other posts) you show that you're two-fold guilty of judging me (as lesser), AND these theologians (as greater)? Remember; judge not.
: The Third One Wed Jun 27, 2012 - 04:29:34Yahshua — and I truly say this with the utmost love for you — how can you be so self-damning ignorant to argue: "Neither did Christ say ALL will be in the kingdom"? By arguing AGAINST the fact that Jesus DOES say, "ALL," who do you think you are excluding from "the Kingdom"?
I can only quote scripture, TTO. I don't know how I've damned myself. It is not I who judge but the words I've quoted that judge. I don't hate or condemn people anywhere, but it's people that condemn themselves by not believing what is written. I will share the following passage and will abstain from much of any commentary for them just so you will know it's not me who's said these things.
Matthew 7:13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity [anomia = Lawlessness].
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
::smile::
Makes no difference how you or I look at Paul. Jesus called him a "chosen vessel." (Acts 9:15)
Jesus explains why in this same verse.
Either this "chosen vessel" was instructed by inspiration to report that "He (God), has made him (Jesus)
to be sin for US, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" (2 Cor. 5:21)
or he is as The Third One says, a false prophet and lacked knowledge of the Lord's will.
If so, then we must consider that the church is NOT "built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets,
Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone" (Eph. 2:20). Nor, when we read, we may understand Paul's
knowledge in the mystery of Christ which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it was
revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit." (Eph. 2:5).
If so, just how did Paul's letter's become canonized?
It would seem since Jesus called Saul/Paul a "chosen vessel," he, as an apostle (Gal. 1:1) would be privy to this
"mystery." Evidently, Paul spoke with a "forked tongue" when he said to the church at Corinth:
"For I received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed
took bread: etc. (1 Cor. 11:23ff).
Was Luke a false prophet in leading us to believe that Saul was not a "chosen vessel"?
If so, we must look deeper into The Third One's report.
He too may be "chosen" to led us into the "mystery,"
Keep in mind that Joseph Smith "translated the gold plates as delivered by the angel Moroni by the gift and power of God." In doing so, the world now has The Book of Mormon.
The illiterate Mohammad received the Qur'an from the dictation of the angel Gabriel and founded the fastest growing
religion on the face of the earth. Are we not to believe that The Third One is not for real?
Yahshua 2
Hi Yahshua,
You bring out the best in me! Here's another long one. Don't blame ME — you inspired it! ::smile::
It is only "Good
Yahshua 2.2
Hi-Yah,
It gets even worse at Philippians 3:10: here, the original Greek has Paul saying, "I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the sharing of his sufferings by becoming like him in His death.
Yahshua 2.3
Hi-Yah again,
As to your presumption that I rank the same theologians who would put Paul on a pedestal in high regard, did you not notice that I did use the word "Remarkably