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There is a belief today that is being taught, that Christ Returns before the Tribulation period? What Scriptures teach this doctrine? That Christ comes BEFORE the tribulations?

^i^

Hi Dave, and I'll just put my take on it as to what you're hearing. I read different articles telling of Jesus returning to earth and ruling from here for a thousand years and I do not believe that. Jesus' throne will be set in heaven according to Revelation 4:2 prior to the tribulation and certain ones will be present with Him there; 24 elders of Revelation 4:4, and 4 living ones of Revelation 4:6.

How are these caught up into heaven before the tribulation? Wait just a minute there larry2, I read of a last trump in 1 Corinthians 15:52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. Now if there is a last trump, by necessity there must be prior trumps.

I read in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Dave, which trump are we reading of here?

In Revelation 7:13-14 another group arrives into heaven:  And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. These came out of great tribulation and were caught up to heaven. What say ye? Was this requiring the sounding of another trump?
 
Well just why would these coming out of great tribulation be different than the 24 elders (Those that died and preceded those who were alive and caught up), and the 4 Living ones which are those alive when the Lord comes to meet us in the air. These two churches have crowns: Smyrna representing those of Revelation 2:10 that obeyed this instruction, "Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." Then there is the Philadelphia church of Revelation 3:10 whom are told, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11  Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown." Read through and note the reward the remaining 5 churches have. Notice in Revelation the crowns being thrown before Jesus' throne in Revelation 4:10. Brother Dave, I'll leave you with this to see if it peaks your interest, but if it does you'll be the first here.
::noworries::

: larry2  Thu Sep 13, 2012 - 23:36:50
Hi Dave, and I'll just put my take on it as to what you're hearing. I read different articles telling of Jesus returning to earth and ruling from here for a thousand years and I do not believe that. Jesus' throne will be set in heaven according to Revelation 4:2 prior to the tribulation and certain ones will be present with Him there; 24 elders of Revelation 4:4, and 4 living ones of Revelation 4:6.
::noworries::

You do not have to believe the Bible if you don't want to, that is a right to every person. But as for me, i will believe the Word of God and what it says, it says that the Throne of God is in the New City Jerusalem, and we know that the New City Jerusalem comes down out of Heaven, to the Earth. Please read Revelations chapter 21 and 22, specifically Rev 22:3 where it plainly says the Throne of God is in the New City Jerusalem. If then the Throne of God is in the City, and the City is on the Earth, than the Throne of God is not in Heaven, but on Earth.

As to your statement, that the throne will be set up in Heaven, well that Throne is already set up and has been established before the Earth ever was created. The Throne of God exists right now, in Heaven. Even the Temple that was built in Jerusalem was a copy of the Temple that was in Heaven even at that time. my point is the Temple and  the Throne, already exists, and has already been set up in Heaven. But when the New City Jerusalem comes to the Earth, the location of the Throne that was in Heaven shall be Changed. The Throne of Heaven will now be in the New City Jerusalem on the planet Earth, and not where it is currently now.

^i^

: DiscipleDaveYou do not have to believe the Bible if you don't want to, that is a right to every person. But as for me, i will believe the Word of God and what it says . .

Wow DiscipleDave and OK; have a blessed day.  ::smile::

: larry2  Sat Sep 15, 2012 - 01:28:06

: DiscipleDaveYou do not have to believe the Bible if you don't want to, that is a right to every person. But as for me, i will believe the Word of God and what it says . .

Wow DiscipleDave and OK; have a blessed day.  ::smile::

Thank you Brother, for your kind remark. And may the Lord Bless your day as well.  ::amen!::

^i^

There are no scriptures that teach a pre-tribulation rapture.

: Grappler  Mon Dec 03, 2012 - 15:12:08
There are no scriptures that teach a pre-tribulation rapture.

No, all scripture points to it.

I do hope the timing of New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven is realized as being subsequent to the thousand year reign of Christ in heaven.

Revelation 21:1  And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Revelation 21:2  And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
 

: larry2  Mon Dec 03, 2012 - 21:04:59
I do hope the timing of New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven is realized as being subsequent to the thousand year reign of Christ in heaven.

Revelation 21:1  And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Revelation 21:2  And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Yep. ::thumbup::

Pre-Trib cannot be proven by proof-texting.  We must believe that certain things are inferred in the usual passages cited to believe in a pre-trib rapture. 

During my 40 years plus as a hard-line Dispensational I believed the pre-trib rapture, the typical Dispy teachings about the millennium, etc. because I accepted certain concepts.  The first one was that because the Church is not mentioned in Revelation, by that name, after the first three chapters in Revelation then that must mean that the Church is not here.  The second one, and perhaps the most important to Dispensationalism, is that the majority of what is written in Revelation applies to the Jews/Israel and not the Church.  The Church is gone, so the rest applies to the Jews/Israel.  They will be left on the Earth and, along with the rest of the unbelieving world, will suffer God's wrath.   The third concept that must be accepted is that the Church Age is parenthetical.  This was God's mystery.  He never mentioned the Church in the OT so Israel was put on the back-burner, it did not matter that they rejected the Messiah (thank you for that heresy, Pastor Hagee), but then Israel will be left on the Earth to suffer the wrath of God while the parenthetical Church is having a grant ol' time in Heaven for seven years. 

: notreligus  Mon Jan 07, 2013 - 10:56:34
Pre-Trib cannot be proven by proof-texting.  We must believe that certain things are inferred in the usual passages cited to believe in a pre-trib rapture. 

During my 40 years plus as a hard-line Dispensational I believed the pre-trib rapture, the typical Dispy teachings about the millennium, etc. because I accepted certain concepts.  The first one was that because the Church is not mentioned in Revelation, by that name, after the first three chapters in Revelation then that must mean that the Church is not here.  The second one, and perhaps the most important to Dispensationalism, is that the majority of what is written in Revelation applies to the Jews/Israel and not the Church.  The Church is gone, so the rest applies to the Jews/Israel.  They will be left on the Earth and, along with the rest of the unbelieving world, will suffer God's wrath.   The third concept that must be accepted is that the Church Age is parenthetical.  This was God's mystery.  He never mentioned the Church in the OT so Israel was put on the back-burner, it did not matter that they rejected the Messiah (thank you for that heresy, Pastor Hagee), but then Israel will be left on the Earth to suffer the wrath of God while the parenthetical Church is having a grant ol' time in Heaven for seven years.

i will leave the infering to you pre-tribers...i will take the more simple route and let scripture speak for itself...i be a Post-Triber all the way!!!!! ::disco::

: Grappler  Mon Jan 07, 2013 - 18:14:33

: notreligus  Mon Jan 07, 2013 - 10:56:34
Pre-Trib cannot be proven by proof-texting.  We must believe that certain things are inferred in the usual passages cited to believe in a pre-trib rapture. 

During my 40 years plus as a hard-line Dispensational I believed the pre-trib rapture, the typical Dispy teachings about the millennium, etc. because I accepted certain concepts.  The first one was that because the Church is not mentioned in Revelation, by that name, after the first three chapters in Revelation then that must mean that the Church is not here.  The second one, and perhaps the most important to Dispensationalism, is that the majority of what is written in Revelation applies to the Jews/Israel and not the Church.  The Church is gone, so the rest applies to the Jews/Israel.  They will be left on the Earth and, along with the rest of the unbelieving world, will suffer God's wrath.   The third concept that must be accepted is that the Church Age is parenthetical.  This was God's mystery.  He never mentioned the Church in the OT so Israel was put on the back-burner, it did not matter that they rejected the Messiah (thank you for that heresy, Pastor Hagee), but then Israel will be left on the Earth to suffer the wrath of God while the parenthetical Church is having a grant ol' time in Heaven for seven years.

i will leave the infering to you pre-tribers...i will take the more simple route and let scripture speak for itself...i be a Post-Triber all the way!!!!! ::disco::

Hah!!!!   You inferred that I was pre-trib.  I never said I was. 

To let Scripture speak for itself you have to read it with understanding.  You have to compare Scripture with Scripture.  You have to know when its allegorical and when its literal.  Anybody can say that they let Scripture speak for itself but there is not one human being alive or who has ever lived that has not had to reach some conclusions based on personal bias.  If you're Calvinist you'll have a bias.  If you're interdenominational you'll have a bias.  If you're a Methodist you'll have a bias.  If you're Southern Baptist you'll have a bias (and since Mohler has become so influential you might now be Calvinist.)   If you're Catholic you'll have a bias.  If your Restoration Movement Church of Christ you'll have a bias.  On and on. 

: notreligus  Mon Jan 07, 2013 - 21:14:05

: Grappler  Mon Jan 07, 2013 - 18:14:33

: notreligus  Mon Jan 07, 2013 - 10:56:34
Pre-Trib cannot be proven by proof-texting.  We must believe that certain things are inferred in the usual passages cited to believe in a pre-trib rapture. 

During my 40 years plus as a hard-line Dispensational I believed the pre-trib rapture, the typical Dispy teachings about the millennium, etc. because I accepted certain concepts.  The first one was that because the Church is not mentioned in Revelation, by that name, after the first three chapters in Revelation then that must mean that the Church is not here.  The second one, and perhaps the most important to Dispensationalism, is that the majority of what is written in Revelation applies to the Jews/Israel and not the Church.  The Church is gone, so the rest applies to the Jews/Israel.  They will be left on the Earth and, along with the rest of the unbelieving world, will suffer God's wrath.   The third concept that must be accepted is that the Church Age is parenthetical.  This was God's mystery.  He never mentioned the Church in the OT so Israel was put on the back-burner, it did not matter that they rejected the Messiah (thank you for that heresy, Pastor Hagee), but then Israel will be left on the Earth to suffer the wrath of God while the parenthetical Church is having a grant ol' time in Heaven for seven years.

i will leave the infering to you pre-tribers...i will take the more simple route and let scripture speak for itself...i be a Post-Triber all the way!!!!! ::disco::

Hah!!!!   You inferred that I was pre-trib.  I never said I was. 

To let Scripture speak for itself you have to read it with understanding.  You have to compare Scripture with Scripture.  You have to know when its allegorical and when its literal.  Anybody can say that they let Scripture speak for itself but there is not one human being alive or who has ever lived that has not had to reach some conclusions based on personal bias.  If you're Calvinist you'll have a bias.  If you're interdenominational you'll have a bias.  If you're a Methodist you'll have a bias.  If you're Southern Baptist you'll have a bias (and since Mohler has become so influential you might now be Calvinist.)   If you're Catholic you'll have a bias.  If your Restoration Movement Church of Christ you'll have a bias.  On and on.

Uh dude ...go back and read your post you said yourself you were a pre-triber ::giggle::....and as for the rest of your response i would have to say i already knew that information but thanks for the review. ::tippinghat::

: DiscipleDave  Thu Sep 13, 2012 - 20:49:32
There is a belief today that is being taught, that Christ Returns before the Tribulation period? What Scriptures teach this doctrine? That Christ comes BEFORE the tribulations?

The teaching that the rapture is "imminent" is supported by the following passage:

"For our citizenship is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body.... The Lord is at hand (eggus)" (Phil.3:20-21;4:5).

The Greek word eggus means "of times imminent and soon to come to pass" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

The Coming of the Lord Draweth Nigh

Now let us look at the following verse from the epistle of James where the Lord's coming is described as drawing near:

"Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh (eggizō )" (James 5:8).

The Greek word translated "draweth nigh" at James 5:8 is eggizō and in this verse that word means "to be imminent" (A Greek English Lexicon, Liddell & Scott [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1940], 467).

In an article found on the "Pre-Trib Research Center" web site Dr. Renald E. Showers writes:

"In light of James' statements C. Leslie Mitton wrote, 'James clearly believed, as others of his time did, that the coming of Christ was imminent.' On the basis of James' statements we can conclude that Christ's coming was imminent in New Testament times and continues to be so today, and that this fact should make a difference in the way Christians live" [emphasis added] (Showers, The Imminent Coming of Christ).

In an article on the Scofield Prophecy Studies web site Dr. Mal Couch, the founder and president of the Tyndale Theological Seminary, writes the following commentary on James 5:8:

"IS AT HAND. ('egizo') This is actually two words put together, en= in and hand. This is a verb here used with the Perfect Active Indicative. It should read: 'The coming of the Lord has come right up to the present, and 'is in the hand,' thus certain and sure to take place.' (As the figure of speech: 'A bird in hand'). It is getting closer but it has not arrived, it is absolutely certain to take place. It is 'in the vicinity, close by.' Liddell & Scott translate this "to be imminent, to bring near, bring up to, to be at the point of, approximate ..." (Couch, Greek Exegesis of the Rapture Passages, James 5:7-8; 9b).

Therefore, since the coming of the Lord spoken of by James is described as being "imminent" we can know that there will be no events which must precede that coming. Therefore, the Lord Jesus' "coming" described in the following passage cannot possibly be the "coming" that those who received the Hebrew epistles were expecting:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Mt.24:29-30).

If certain events, such as the "great tribulation" and the "sun being darkened" must happen prior to the Lord Jesus' coming then that event could not be described as being "imminent." However, the "coming" of the Lord Jesus of which James spoke is indeed described as being "imminent."

Therefore it is evident that the rapture will happen before the great tribulation.

Jerry Shugart said:

In an article on the Scofield Prophecy Studies web site Dr. Mal Couch, the founder and president of the Tyndale Theological Seminary, writes the following commentary on James 5:8:

Another victim of the charlatans of "last days madness!"

In an article found on the "Pre-Trib Research Center" web site Dr. Renald E. Showers writes:

"In light of James' statements C. Leslie Mitton wrote, 'James clearly believed, as others of his time did, that the coming of Christ was imminent.' On the basis of James' statements we can conclude that Christ's coming was imminent in New Testament times and continues to be so today, and that this fact should make a difference in the way Christians live" [emphasis added] (Showers, The Imminent Coming of Christ).

Oh boy, are you looking in the wrong place for "knowledge" of Eschatology!!

How this ideology twists and corrupts Scripture is immoral.

What a flat out deluded lie in that statement above. "New Testament times" - you mean the first century AD- and YES the apostles wrote that the Lord's coming was imminent! 
And guess what?  If He was IMMINENT then, He is not nor will EVER be IMMINENT AGAIN!

There is no "and continues to be so today"   How pathetic is that statement.   ::frown::

: Lehigh  Sat Jan 12, 2013 - 14:03:21
Jerry Shugart said:

In an article on the Scofield Prophecy Studies web site Dr. Mal Couch, the founder and president of the Tyndale Theological Seminary, writes the following commentary on James 5:8:

Another victim of the charlatans of "last days madness!"

In an article found on the "Pre-Trib Research Center" web site Dr. Renald E. Showers writes:

"In light of James' statements C. Leslie Mitton wrote, 'James clearly believed, as others of his time did, that the coming of Christ was imminent.' On the basis of James' statements we can conclude that Christ's coming was imminent in New Testament times and continues to be so today, and that this fact should make a difference in the way Christians live" [emphasis added] (Showers, The Imminent Coming of Christ).

Oh boy, are you looking in the wrong place for "knowledge" of Eschatology!!

How this ideology twists and corrupts Scripture is immoral.

What a flat out deluded lie in that statement above. "New Testament times" - you mean the first century AD- and YES the apostles wrote that the Lord's coming was imminent! 
And guess what?  If He was IMMINENT then, He is not nor will EVER be IMMINENT AGAIN!

There is no "and continues to be so today"   How pathetic is that statement.   ::frown::

When i read you posts Lehigh, I say well did Peter prophecy of people like you-  "knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires"  You scoff and mock those who take scripture literally but i will make the prophecy that one day you will regret it. ::tippinghat::

: Lehigh  Sat Jan 12, 2013 - 14:03:21
And guess what?  If He was IMMINENT then, He is not nor will EVER be IMMINENT AGAIN!

So if you believe that the Lord Jesus descended from heaven in 70AD then you must believe that the saints at that time were caught up to meet the Lord Jesus in the air:

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air" (1 Thess.4:16-17).

If the Christians suddenly disappeared from the face of the earth in 70AD we would expect that there would be evidence that that happened. What proof can you offer to support your assertion?

: Jerry Shugart  Sat Jan 12, 2013 - 23:52:08

: Lehigh  Sat Jan 12, 2013 - 14:03:21
And guess what?  If He was IMMINENT then, He is not nor will EVER be IMMINENT AGAIN!

So if you believe that the Lord Jesus descended from heaven in 70AD then you must believe that the saints at that time were caught up to meet the Lord Jesus in the air:

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air" (1 Thess.4:16-17).

If the Christians suddenly disappeared from the face of the earth in 70AD we would expect that there would be evidence that that happened. What proof can you offer to support your assertion?

First, I disagree with you using the word "descended"  Coming, returning and appearing do not mean He "descended" LITERALLY. He executed HIS POWER on the land and the disciples were to "watch" for the "signs" of when that would be too.

Next, a rapture of the living is not in Scripture. It is not literal. So we're not going to look for any history of this event in the first place. http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/eschatology/the_rapture.htm (http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/eschatology/the_rapture.htm)

I have read "the works of Josephus. "   He was an eyewitness to the Jews calamity during the Roman/Jewish war.  This reinforced my Preterist studies several years ago.

Josephus, a Jewish priest and one of the ten Jewish generals who started the war with Rome in 66 A.D., gives his eyewitness account of that gruesome judgment which Jesus said was, "such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall" (Matt. 24:21) A few days later Jesus (at His trial) said the High Priest & the Sanhedrin, "shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven" (Matt. 27:64) Josephus, Tacitus, Eusebius and the Talmud all record the FACT that God's presence was perceived at that awesome destruction. They even record that angelic armies were seen in the clouds.

Did the signs of his second coming (Mt. 24:27-30) already take place and nobody noticed them?

Answer: Eusebius and other historians mention that the Christians definitely saw the signs and left Jerusalem. The Jews saw the signs too (according to Josephus and Tacitus), but they refused to acknowledge them as portending calamity for them. They stubbornly believed that God was about to establish a literal, physical Golden Age of the Messiah. So, the Jews stayed in Jerusalem and Judea to fight the war, believing God would somehow miraculously deliver them and give them their physical kingdom over Rome and the whole world.

: Lehigh  Sun Jan 13, 2013 - 14:04:46First, I disagree with you using the word "descended"  Coming, returning and appearing do not mean He "descended" LITERALLY. He executed HIS POWER on the land and the disciples were to "watch" for the "signs" of when that would be too.

The Lord Jesus answer to what would happen at the end of the age was in reply to a question about about His "coming":

"Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming (parousia), and of the end of the age?" (Mt. 24:3).

The Greek word parousia is translated "coming" and it means "presence, the presence of one coming" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

The disciples were asking about the presence of the Lord Jesus' coming so His answer was in regard to His presence. 

Next, a rapture of the living is not in Scripture. It is not literal. So we're not going to look for any history of this event in the first place.

Here is the verse which proves that living believers will indeed by raptured (caught up) in the air to meet the Lord Jesus:

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thess.4:16-17).

: Lehigh  Sat Jan 12, 2013 - 14:03:21
Jerry Shugart said:

In an article on the Scofield Prophecy Studies web site Dr. Mal Couch, the founder and president of the Tyndale Theological Seminary, writes the following commentary on James 5:8:

Another victim of the charlatans of "last days madness!"

In an article found on the "Pre-Trib Research Center" web site Dr. Renald E. Showers writes:

"In light of James' statements C. Leslie Mitton wrote, 'James clearly believed, as others of his time did, that the coming of Christ was imminent.' On the basis of James' statements we can conclude that Christ's coming was imminent in New Testament times and continues to be so today, and that this fact should make a difference in the way Christians live" [emphasis added] (Showers, The Imminent Coming of Christ).

Oh boy, are you looking in the wrong place for "knowledge" of Eschatology!!

How this ideology twists and corrupts Scripture is immoral.

What a flat out deluded lie in that statement above. "New Testament times" - you mean the first century AD- and YES the apostles wrote that the Lord's coming was imminent! 
And guess what?  If He was IMMINENT then, He is not nor will EVER be IMMINENT AGAIN!

There is no "and continues to be so today"   How pathetic is that statement.   ::frown::

Are you sure you understand what you read?

Have you read the two epistles to the Thessalonians?  If so, would you please tell me, what were their thoughts on the return of Christ? 

: notreligus  Mon Jan 14, 2013 - 11:59:56

: Lehigh  Sat Jan 12, 2013 - 14:03:21
Jerry Shugart said:

In an article on the Scofield Prophecy Studies web site Dr. Mal Couch, the founder and president of the Tyndale Theological Seminary, writes the following commentary on James 5:8:

Another victim of the charlatans of "last days madness!"

In an article found on the "Pre-Trib Research Center" web site Dr. Renald E. Showers writes:

"In light of James' statements C. Leslie Mitton wrote, 'James clearly believed, as others of his time did, that the coming of Christ was imminent.' On the basis of James' statements we can conclude that Christ's coming was imminent in New Testament times and continues to be so today, and that this fact should make a difference in the way Christians live" [emphasis added] (Showers, The Imminent Coming of Christ).

Oh boy, are you looking in the wrong place for "knowledge" of Eschatology!!

How this ideology twists and corrupts Scripture is immoral.

What a flat out deluded lie in that statement above. "New Testament times" - you mean the first century AD- and YES the apostles wrote that the Lord's coming was imminent! 
And guess what?  If He was IMMINENT then, He is not nor will EVER be IMMINENT AGAIN!

There is no "and continues to be so today"   How pathetic is that statement.   ::frown::

Are you sure you understand what you read?

Have you read the two epistles to the Thessalonians?  If so, would you please tell me, what were their thoughts on the return of Christ? 

The Thessalonians believed Christ would return in their generation.

: Lehigh  Mon Jan 14, 2013 - 18:00:54

: notreligus  Mon Jan 14, 2013 - 11:59:56

: Lehigh  Sat Jan 12, 2013 - 14:03:21
Jerry Shugart said:

In an article on the Scofield Prophecy Studies web site Dr. Mal Couch, the founder and president of the Tyndale Theological Seminary, writes the following commentary on James 5:8:

Another victim of the charlatans of "last days madness!"

In an article found on the "Pre-Trib Research Center" web site Dr. Renald E. Showers writes:

"In light of James' statements C. Leslie Mitton wrote, 'James clearly believed, as others of his time did, that the coming of Christ was imminent.' On the basis of James' statements we can conclude that Christ's coming was imminent in New Testament times and continues to be so today, and that this fact should make a difference in the way Christians live" [emphasis added] (Showers, The Imminent Coming of Christ).

Oh boy, are you looking in the wrong place for "knowledge" of Eschatology!!

How this ideology twists and corrupts Scripture is immoral.

What a flat out deluded lie in that statement above. "New Testament times" - you mean the first century AD- and YES the apostles wrote that the Lord's coming was imminent! 
And guess what?  If He was IMMINENT then, He is not nor will EVER be IMMINENT AGAIN!

There is no "and continues to be so today"   How pathetic is that statement.   ::frown::

Are you sure you understand what you read?

Have you read the two epistles to the Thessalonians?  If so, would you please tell me, what were their thoughts on the return of Christ? 

The Thessalonians believed Christ would return in their generation.

When i read you posts Lehigh, I say well did Peter prophecy of people like you-  "knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires"  You scoff and mock those who take scripture literally but i will make the prophecy that one day you will regret it.  ::smile::

: Grappler  Mon Jan 14, 2013 - 20:04:12

: Lehigh  Mon Jan 14, 2013 - 18:00:54

: notreligus  Mon Jan 14, 2013 - 11:59:56

: Lehigh  Sat Jan 12, 2013 - 14:03:21
Jerry Shugart said:

In an article on the Scofield Prophecy Studies web site Dr. Mal Couch, the founder and president of the Tyndale Theological Seminary, writes the following commentary on James 5:8:

Another victim of the charlatans of "last days madness!"

In an article found on the "Pre-Trib Research Center" web site Dr. Renald E. Showers writes:

"In light of James' statements C. Leslie Mitton wrote, 'James clearly believed, as others of his time did, that the coming of Christ was imminent.' On the basis of James' statements we can conclude that Christ's coming was imminent in New Testament times and continues to be so today, and that this fact should make a difference in the way Christians live" [emphasis added] (Showers, The Imminent Coming of Christ).

Oh boy, are you looking in the wrong place for "knowledge" of Eschatology!!

How this ideology twists and corrupts Scripture is immoral.

What a flat out deluded lie in that statement above. "New Testament times" - you mean the first century AD- and YES the apostles wrote that the Lord's coming was imminent! 
And guess what?  If He was IMMINENT then, He is not nor will EVER be IMMINENT AGAIN!

There is no "and continues to be so today"   How pathetic is that statement.   ::frown::

Are you sure you understand what you read?

Have you read the two epistles to the Thessalonians?  If so, would you please tell me, what were their thoughts on the return of Christ? 

The Thessalonians believed Christ would return in their generation.

When i read you posts Lehigh, I say well did Peter prophecy of people like you-  "knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires"  You scoff and mock those who take scripture literally but i will make the prophecy that one day you will regret it.  ::smile::

What a low-life comment. 

: Lehigh  Mon Jan 14, 2013 - 18:00:54The Thessalonians believed Christ would return in their generation.

Please quote the passage to which you are referring.

Thanks!

: Jerry Shugart  Wed Jan 16, 2013 - 17:59:06

: Lehigh  Mon Jan 14, 2013 - 18:00:54The Thessalonians believed Christ would return in their generation.

Please quote the passage to which you are referring.

Thanks!

And this is just to Thessalonica - the earliest epistles:

Paul, Silvanus and Timothy to the church of the Thessalonians:

    1 Thessalonians 3:13, "To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints."

    1 Thessalonians 4:17, "Then we the living who remain shall be caught away together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

    1 Thessalonians 5:23, "...and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. "

Now use your brain. Whole "body" preserved blameless at the coming of the Lord.  Who is Paul saying would not all sleep at the coming of the Lord?

Don't try to twist the logic of the Scripture. It is what it is. Paul meant his first century audience. Accept it.

: Lehigh  Wed Jan 16, 2013 - 18:57:57Don't try to twist the logic of the Scripture. It is what it is. Paul meant his first century audience. Accept it.

I accept the fact that the first century Christians were taught that the coming of the Lord Jesus at the rapture was imminent. However, In The Scofield Reference Bible we read that "the Biblical term 'at hand' or 'near' is never a positive affirmation that the person or thing said to be at hand will immediately appear, but only that person or thing has the quality of imminency."

Christians were taught to be waiting for a Savior from heaven, the Lord Jesus who will change our lowly body so that it will be fashioned like His glorious body:

"But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body" (Phil.3:21).

Since Christians are eagerly waiting the Savior to appear then we know that He will, in His Person, appear. What evidence can you give that this did in fact happen in 70AD? And what evidence can you give that all the Christians living in 70AD were "caught up" to meet the Lord Jesus in the air?

: Lehigh  Wed Jan 16, 2013 - 18:57:57

: Jerry Shugart  Wed Jan 16, 2013 - 17:59:06

: Lehigh  Mon Jan 14, 2013 - 18:00:54The Thessalonians believed Christ would return in their generation.

Please quote the passage to which you are referring.

Thanks!

And this is just to Thessalonica - the earliest epistles:

Paul, Silvanus and Timothy to the church of the Thessalonians:

    1 Thessalonians 3:13, "To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints."

    1 Thessalonians 4:17, "Then we the living who remain shall be caught away together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

    1 Thessalonians 5:23, "...and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. "

Now use your brain. Whole "body" preserved blameless at the coming of the Lord.  Who is Paul saying would not all sleep at the coming of the Lord?

Don't try to twist the logic of the Scripture. It is what it is. Paul meant his first century audience. Accept it.

Lehigh when i read your post "don't try to twist the logic of the Scripture..."  i got a good little laugh....With all due respect preterism is one of the most illogical doctrines that i have ever heard of.  You people can't even answer simple questions that i have asked without twisting scripture or denying scripture or just not answering. Why do you even care about discussing end of the age events?  Are you curious?  Are you having doubts about your own beliefs?  You need to remember what stormcrow and convenater said about the uselessness of discussing end time events. ::smile::

: Grappler  Wed Jan 16, 2013 - 20:29:49
Lehigh when i read your post "don't try to twist the logic of the Scripture..."  i got a good little laugh....With all due respect preterism is one of the most illogical doctrines that i have ever heard of.  You people can't even answer simple questions that i have asked without twisting scripture or denying scripture or just not answering. Why do you even care about discussing end of the age events?  Are you curious?  Are you having doubts about your own beliefs?  You need to remember what stormcrow and convenater said about the uselessness of discussing end time events. ::smile::

Grappler,

Although I do not agree with Lehigh in regard to his eschatology at least he answers questions and he is not afraid to give his interpretation of verses which are presented to him.

The same cannot be said for you. You will only address the things which you think matches your views but when confronted with verses that prove that you are wrong you run away as fast as you can. You refuse to tackle those verses and instead of attempting to answer all we hear from you are your snide remarks.

Your act is getting old and nothing you say makes a positive contribulation to this forum. That is why those who have had discussions with you DO NOT TAKE YOU SERIOUSLY.

: Jerry Shugart  Wed Jan 16, 2013 - 20:14:41

: Lehigh  Wed Jan 16, 2013 - 18:57:57Don't try to twist the logic of the Scripture. It is what it is. Paul meant his first century audience. Accept it.

I accept the fact that the first century Christians were taught that the coming of the Lord Jesus at the rapture was imminent. However, In The Scofield Reference Bible we read that "the Biblical term 'at hand' or 'near' is never a positive affirmation that the person or thing said to be at hand will immediately appear, but only that person or thing has the quality of imminency."

Christians were taught to be waiting for a Savior from heaven, the Lord Jesus who will change our lowly body so that it will be fashioned like His glorious body:

"But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body" (Phil.3:21).

Since Christians are eagerly waiting the Savior to appear then we know that He will, in His Person, appear. What evidence can you give that this did in fact happen in 70AD? And what evidence can you give that all the Christians living in 70AD were "caught up" to meet the Lord Jesus in the air?

Are you listening? You posted about the "Scofield Study Bible" again.  Throw it out. You need to start over without the preconceived last day madness and hell for other people belief!

Our "Transformed" Body
Philippians 3:20-21
    Philippians 3:21 (NKJV) who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

The futurist looks at this verse and says, "When the Lord returns some day in the future, he will transform our dead decaying bodies into spiritual bodies like his." The problem with this is that the Lord has already returned, and what ever this is talking about has already happened! Whatever this verse is talking about happened in AD 70.

"Who will transform our lowly body...." If this has already happened, how has our body been transformed? To understand this, we must first understand the word "transformed." It is the Greek word metaschematizo. This word is used five times in the New Testament. The connotation in all five refers to the act of assuming an outward expression that does not come from within. Let's look at these verses and see if we can get a better understanding of this word.

    1 Corinthians 4:6 (NKJV) Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred (metaschematizo) to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other.

Paul is here attempting to appeal to the baby Corinthians on their level, so was "fashioning" (assuming an outward expression that does not come from within) himself and Apollos on their level. He had just rebuked them for schisms in chapter 3; and Paul, while knowing that he and Apollos were more mature than the Corinthians, didn't want to appear superior, for he wanted their focus to be on the Lord, not on them! The "forming" was assuming an outward expression that did not come from within. It was an appearance to keep from being seen as super-apostles in the eyes of the Corinthians.

Paul also uses this word metaschematizo in:

    2 Corinthians 11:13-15 (NKJV) For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming (metaschematizo) themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms (metaschematizo) himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform (metaschematizo)themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

The false apostles were not apostles of Christ, Satan was not an angel of light, and his ministers were not ministers of righteousness. They were all assuming an outward expression that did not come from within. In this same way, our lowly body was transformed.

Beginning with the completion of atonement at 70 AD, Christians acquired immortality.

    1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (NKJV) Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed; 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

The change was the putting on of immortality. The physical body is taking on a condition that is alien to its nature. It isn't changing its nature, just taking on a temporary condition by virtue of the spirit which is immortal. The lowly, physical body does not become "immortal", it merely achieves a special status by virtue of housing a Christian spirit that IS immortal. That is the meaning of metaschematizo, the putting on of a temporary quality that does not affect the true nature. That status is not carried over after death, when the spirit leaves.

Philippians 3:21 is not referring to some future raising up and changing of the physical body, but refers to the "putting on" of immortality as a direct result of the indwelling of the immortal spirit while the Christian is physically alive!

Paul goes on to say, "That it may be conformed to His glorious body." The word "conformed" is the Greek word summorphos, which comes from morphe, meaning: "the essential character of something, the essential form which never alters." The word Paul uses here is not morphe but summorphos, which means: "jointly formed." The prefix "sun" (soon) denotes: "union; with or together." This "sun" prefix tells us that this is a positional association.

Notice that the "metaschematizo" of the lowly body results in the "summorphos" of the body. The pronoun "auto" (it) refers back to the lowly body and is described as being "summorphon" because it had been metaschematizo.

Verse 21 reads like this: "Who (Christ) will transform (metaschematizo) our lowly body that it (our lowly body) may be conformed (summorphon) to his glorious body."

Our body did not become a glorious body, but is glorious only in its association with His glorious body. Christ's body is literally glorified and our is co-glorified. We are glorified only in a positional sense.

For example:

    Romans 6:4 (NKJV) Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

The word" buried" here is sunthapto. Were we physically, literally buried? No. Was Christ? Yes. We were buried only by association with Christ -- it was HIS burial, but our co-burial through his baptism.

This same association applies in Philippians 3:21 ; "Who (Christ) will transform (metaschematizo - the act of assuming an outward expression that does not come from within.) our lowly body that it (our lowly body) may be conformed (summorphon- co-formed, associated to the fashion of His, not our body) to his glorious body."

It was Christ's body that was "morphed" and made glorious. Our body obtains this glory in this life only through association, or being "with-morphed", if you will. That is why the physical body is now assuming an outward expression that does not come from within- it is housing the now immortal spirit, but it doesn't appear that way. It is not an immortal body. The body is no more "morphed" than it is "buried" in Romans 6:4. Futurists that see a physical glorified body in this verse, totally gloss over the Greek used in this verse.

The lowly body of the Christian (since 70 AD) has taken on (through the "change" of 1 Corinthians 15:51-52) an outward expression that does not come from within because of the immortality of the spirit within, and, as such, is in association with Christ's (and ONLY Christ's) transformed and glorified body. Only Christ was given this transformation because only His body was free of corruption and was promised not to see decay. Nowhere will you find a verse that talks about our physical body being "morphed" or changed into a glorious body.

This word summorphon is also used in:

    Romans 8:29 (NKJV) For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed (summorphon)to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Because Christians are joined to Christ, they are summorphon - co-formed into His image. It is this association to Christ's nature, this summorphon with the image of Christ, that is responsible for the metaschematizo, or new condition, of the living saint from 70 AD onward!

We must understand that sun prefix on the word, summorphon, shows not an exact likeness to the nature of Christ, but an association with Christ's nature.

We also see this positional association in Romans 6 (co-buried, co-crucified, co-resurrected with Christ); Ephesians 2 (co-quickened, co-raised, co-seated in heaven with Christ); and Colossians 2 (co-buried, co-raised, co-quickened). These all utilize the sun or co- prefix and all demand a positional stance of the believer with the reality of Christ. Christ was buried, raised, quickened, and is seated in heaven. The believer is co-buried, co-raised, co-quickened, and co-seated in heaven. In Christ is the reality, in the believers is the association with that reality.

So, in this verse, it is an association with CHRIST'S nature that is essential. Only by and through that can there be a metaschematizo of the believer, a putting on of a new condition, a "refashioning".

So, Paul is saying that at the return of Christ, believers will be "transformed," their spirit will become immortal while dwelling in a physical body. This change took place because of the believer's association with Christ's glorified body. This is the change that 1 Corinthians 15:51 speaks of:

    1 Corinthians 15:51 (NKJV) Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed;

Now, notice how Paul says that this "transformation" is to take place:

    Philippians 3:21 (NKJV) who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

He says that it is, "according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself." This change in the believers was to occur when Christ subdued all things. When did that happen?

    1 Corinthians 15:24-26 (NKJV) Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

Christ's glorious power was made manifest in the second coming when he destroyed spiritual death and brought immortality.

Believers, we have immortality now, but we dwell in a mortal body. When we die physically, our immortal spirit will put on an immortal body and we will forever dwell with the Lord.  ~ Berean Bible Church

: Lehigh  Thu Jan 17, 2013 - 11:09:10Philippians 3:21 is not referring to some future raising up and changing of the physical body, but refers to the "putting on" of immortality as a direct result of the indwelling of the immortal spirit while the Christian is physically alive!Our body did not become a glorious body, but is glorious only in its association with His glorious body. Christ's body is literally glorified and our is co-glorified. We are glorified only in a positional sense.

Nowhere will you find a verse that talks about our physical body being "morphed" or changed into a glorious body.

So our bodies when we are "caught up" to meet the Lord in the air will not be changed into a glorious body like the Lord Jesus' body?

You failed to address the fact that we will bear the image of the "heavenly" just as we have borne the image of the "earthly":

"And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" (1 Cor.15:49-52).

The next verse explains why we will bear the image of the heavenly, and that is because flesh and blood bodies cannot enter into the heavenly, eternal kingdom of God and that will be the destination of those who will be caught up. That is how we will be changed. The Apostle Paul refers to the same thing here:

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life" (2 Cor.5:1-4).

This is in regard to the "blessed hope" and Paul relates that it is laid up for us in heaven:

"For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel" (Col.1:5).

Therefore, there can be no doubt that the Christian will put on a new, heavenly body, which is much different from our flesh and blood body, when the Lord Jesus appears:

"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13).

Now a question for you. Were all the Christians "caught up" to meet the Lord Jesus in the air in 70AD?

: Lehigh  Wed Jan 16, 2013 - 18:57:57

: Jerry Shugart  Wed Jan 16, 2013 - 17:59:06

: Lehigh  Mon Jan 14, 2013 - 18:00:54The Thessalonians believed Christ would return in their generation.

Please quote the passage to which you are referring.

Thanks!

And this is just to Thessalonica - the earliest epistles:

Paul, Silvanus and Timothy to the church of the Thessalonians:

    1 Thessalonians 3:13, "To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints."

    1 Thessalonians 4:17, "Then we the living who remain shall be caught away together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

    1 Thessalonians 5:23, "...and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. "

Now use your brain. Whole "body" preserved blameless at the coming of the Lord.  Who is Paul saying would not all sleep at the coming of the Lord?

Don't try to twist the logic of the Scripture. It is what it is. Paul meant his first century audience. Accept it.

When Paul told those in the church at Thessalonica to start working he was not speaking of laziness but was speaking of those who had essentially done what some have done before and this is to give up their worldly concerns and possessions and wait for His return. 

A poster here asked you for a single proof text, but the way to understand these two epistles to the Thessalonians is to read both books and to study the social and historical context.  It is good to especially study the city of Thessalonica for the background.  Reaching these people for the Lord was a daunting task.  I've read probably a thousand pages plus of commentary and history on these epistles.  Paul was at Thessalonica less than two weeks and wrote the follow-up epistle after getting word back that others had come behind him and told these people that Christ's return was imminent.  The Jews expected Messiah to overtake the Romans and set up His rule on the Earth.  When He did not do that after His resurrection and later ascension they thought He might come back again very soon, meaning right away.  There are historical records to support this but I can't point to a single verse in the Thessalonian epistles to support it.  If the Bible is true, and it is, other records will support it and vice versa. 

I'm not a preterist but I know what these epistles are about.  And Paul essentially told these people to cool their heels. 

: notreligus  Thu Jan 17, 2013 - 16:28:35

: Lehigh  Wed Jan 16, 2013 - 18:57:57

: Jerry Shugart  Wed Jan 16, 2013 - 17:59:06

: Lehigh  Mon Jan 14, 2013 - 18:00:54The Thessalonians believed Christ would return in their generation.

Please quote the passage to which you are referring.

Thanks!

And this is just to Thessalonica - the earliest epistles:

Paul, Silvanus and Timothy to the church of the Thessalonians:

    1 Thessalonians 3:13, "To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints."

    1 Thessalonians 4:17, "Then we the living who remain shall be caught away together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

    1 Thessalonians 5:23, "...and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. "

Now use your brain. Whole "body" preserved blameless at the coming of the Lord.  Who is Paul saying would not all sleep at the coming of the Lord?

Don't try to twist the logic of the Scripture. It is what it is. Paul meant his first century audience. Accept it.

When Paul told those in the church at Thessalonica to start working he was not speaking of laziness but was speaking of those who had essentially done what some have done before and this is to give up their worldly concerns and possessions and wait for His return. 

A poster here asked you for a single proof text, but the way to understand these two epistles to the Thessalonians is to read both books and to study the social and historical context.  It is good to especially study the city of Thessalonica for the background.  Reaching these people for the Lord was a daunting task.  I've read probably a thousand pages plus of commentary and history on these epistles.  Paul was at Thessalonica less than two weeks and wrote the follow-up epistle after getting word back that others had come behind him and told these people that Christ's return was imminent.  The Jews expected Messiah to overtake the Romans and set up His rule on the Earth.  When He did not do that after His resurrection and later ascension they thought He might come back again very soon, meaning right away.  There are historical records to support this but I can't point to a single verse in the Thessalonian epistles to support it.  If the Bible is true, and it is, other records will support it and vice versa. 

I'm not a preterist but I know what these epistles are about.  And Paul essentially told these people to cool their heels. 

I do not think think the Jews thought the Messiah was going to come back after they missed His visitation the first time (Lk 19:40-44)   
Christ warned them of a JUDGMENT though.

There were false prophets in Jerusalem before Titus moved in to take the Temple and the City. These false prophets, recorded by Josephus, were Jews who deluded the remaining Jews that God would somehow miraculously save them from the Romans.  Of course the perished.

: Lehigh  Thu Jan 17, 2013 - 18:48:44I do not think think the Jews thought the Messiah was going to come back after they missed His visitation the first time (Lk 19:40-44)   
Christ warned them of a JUDGMENT though.

The disciples of the Lord Jesus certainly believed that He would return, as evidenced by their  question to Him here:

"And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming (parousia), and of the end of the world?" (Mt.24:3).

The Greek word parousia is translated "coming" and its meaning is "presence, the presence of one coming" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

In fact, Peter told the Jews that if they would repent that the Father would send back the Lord Jesus so that they could enjoy His presence:

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, that the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you" (Acts 3:19-20).

Since the preterist teach that the Lord Jesus returned in some form or the other in 70AD they must think that Israel did repent and they received the "times of refreshing" from the presence of the Lord Jesus and that "times of refreshing" was the complete destruction of Jerusalem.

That idea only makes sense to the preterists!

: Jerry Shugart  Fri Jan 18, 2013 - 12:42:33

: Lehigh  Thu Jan 17, 2013 - 18:48:44I do not think think the Jews thought the Messiah was going to come back after they missed His visitation the first time (Lk 19:40-44)   
Christ warned them of a JUDGMENT though.

The disciples of the Lord Jesus certainly believed that He would return, as evidenced by their  question to Him here:

"And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming (parousia), and of the end of the world?" (Mt.24:3).

The Greek word parousia is translated "coming" and its meaning is "presence, the presence of one coming" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

In fact, Peter told the Jews that if they would repent that the Father would send back the Lord Jesus so that they could enjoy His presence:

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, that the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you" (Acts 3:19-20).

Since the preterist teach that the Lord Jesus returned in some form or the other in 70AD they must think that Israel did repent and they received the "times of refreshing" from the presence of the Lord Jesus and that "times of refreshing" was the complete destruction of Jerusalem.

That idea only makes sense to the preterists!

The apostles and the disciples anticipated Jesus' return of course, in their generation. But that is not who notreligus was referring to.  He/she mentioned the Jews of the flesh, (at least that's what it sounded like)

Anyway, yes of course some repented and were saved.
Do you understand the difference between the Jews of the flesh and the faithful remnant of Israel or not?
Who do you think Peter is talking to in Acts 2?  The apostles initially only preached to the Jewish brethren.

36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
A Vital Church Grows

40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation." 41 Then those who gladly[g] received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. 42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers. 43 Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles. 44 Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common, 45 and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need.

46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart, 47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church[h] daily those who were being saved.

And then we also see how Israel is called the nations in Acts4:
8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, "Rulers of the people and elders of Israel: 9 If we this day are judged for a good deed done to a helpless man, by what means he has been made well, 10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 This is the 'stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.'[a] 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
The Name of Jesus Forbidden

13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and untrained men, they marveled. And they realized that they had been with Jesus. 14 And seeing the man who had been healed standing with them, they could say nothing against it. 15 But when they had commanded them to go aside out of the council, they conferred among themselves, 16 saying, "What shall we do to these men? For, indeed, that a notable miracle has been done through them is evident to all who dwell in Jerusalem, and we cannot deny it. 17 But so that it spreads no further among the people, let us severely threaten them, that from now on they speak to no man in this name."

18 So they called them and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus. 19 But Peter and John answered and said to them, "Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you more than to God, you judge. 20 For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard." 21 So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding no way of punishing them, because of the people, since they all glorified God for what had been done. 22 For the man was over forty years old on whom this miracle of healing had been performed.
Prayer for Boldness

23 And being let go, they went to their own companions and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them. 24 So when they heard that, they raised their voice to God with one accord and said: "Lord, You are God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them, 25 who by the mouth of Your servant David have said:

'Why did the nations rage,
And the people plot vain things?
26 The kings of the earth took their stand,
And the rulers were gathered together
Against the Lord and against His Christ.'[c]

27 "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done. 29 Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word, 30 by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.

So we see that the times of refreshing for the remnant of Israel. These would be saved from God's wrath. The 144k in Revelation.
The 2/3, (Zech13:8) who were Mystery Babylon, perished in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.

Post deleted - Sending PM.

: Lehigh  Fri Jan 18, 2013 - 20:33:54The apostles and the disciples anticipated Jesus' return of course, in their generation.

But you answered nothing about what the Scriptures say about the actual "presence" of the Lord Jesus when He will return to earth:

The disciples of the Lord Jesus certainly believed that He would return, as evidenced by their  question to Him here:

"And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming (parousia), and of the end of the age?" (Mt.24:3).

The Greek word parousia is translated "coming" and its meaning is "presence, the presence of one coming" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

In fact, Peter told the Jews that if they would repent that the Father would send back the Lord Jesus so that they could enjoy His presence:

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, that the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you" (Acts 3:19-20).

The preterist say that the Lord Jesus did return in 70AD but they have yet to prove that every eye saw Him in 70AD:

"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him" (Rev.1:7).

: Jerry Shugart  Sat Jan 19, 2013 - 19:41:58

: Lehigh  Fri Jan 18, 2013 - 20:33:54The apostles and the disciples anticipated Jesus' return of course, in their generation.

But you answered nothing about what the Scriptures say about the actual "presence" of the Lord Jesus when He will return to earth:

The disciples of the Lord Jesus certainly believed that He would return, as evidenced by their  question to Him here:

"And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming (parousia), and of the end of the age?" (Mt.24:3).

The Greek word parousia is translated "coming" and its meaning is "presence, the presence of one coming" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

In fact, Peter told the Jews that if they would repent that the Father would send back the Lord Jesus so that they could enjoy His presence:

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, that the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you" (Acts 3:19-20).

The preterist say that the Lord Jesus did return in 70AD but they have yet to prove that every eye saw Him in 70AD:

"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him" (Rev.1:7).

I think Pastor Curtis (full preterist) interprets the Text for us:

    "Repent therefore and return, that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; (Acts 3:19 NASB)

The word for "refreshing" is from the Greek word anapsuxis, which means: "to revive, refresh, a recovery of breath." This spiritual refreshing was symbolized in the prophets by the picture of rain pouring down and bringing life and fruitfulness and of rivers of life giving water (Isaiah 32:1-4, 15-18; 44:1-5; 55.10-13; Ezekiel 36:25-26; 47:1-12; Psalm 36:8; 46.4). It was symbolized in terms of receiving a refreshing drink in the hottest and driest of conditions (Isaiah 55:1-3). It was symbolized by the shadow of a great rock in a hot and weary land (Isaiah 32:1-4).

Israel will be redeemed, her sins will be forgiven, and times of refreshing will come when she turns in faith to her Messiah Jesus. Now notice what else Peter says here:

    and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, (Acts 3:20 NASB)

The NKJV and others have "preached" instead of "appointed." But according to Vincent's Word Studies, "The best texts read prokeceirismenon (appointed). This Greek word is only used by Luke (22:14; 26:16). The verb originally means: "at hand, to take into one's hands, to choose." It is not "Jesus Christ" here nor "Christ Jesus," but "Jesus the Messiah," identifying Jesus with the Messiah. Jesus the Messiah, chosen for you.

The reference is naturally to the second coming of Christ as verse 21 shows:

    whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time. (Acts 3:21 NASB)

"The period of restoration of all things"­ the word "restoration" here is from the Greek word anapsukseows. This word speaks of the redemption of Israel. This word is one of the key words used in the LXX when God predicted the restoration of Israel under the Messiah. Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament says of this word, "Here only in the N.T., though common in late writers. In papyri and inscriptions for repairs to temples and this phrase occurs in Jewish apocalyptic writings, something like the new heaven and the new earth of Revelation 21:1. The verb apokatisthmi is used by Jesus of the spiritual and moral restoration wrought by the Baptist as Elijah (Matthew 17:11; Mark 9:12) and by the disciples to Jesus in Acts 1:6. Josephus uses the word of the return from captivity and Philo of the restitution of inheritances in the year of jubilee. As a technical medical term it means complete restoration to health."

So Peter is saying, "If they will trust Jesus, they [Israel] will be redeemed, their sins will be forgiven and times of refreshing will come, and when Jesus returns to reward those who trust Him and destroy those who reject Him, they will be safe":

    "And the nations were enraged, and Thy wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to give their reward to Thy bond-servants the prophets and to the saints and to those who fear Thy name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth." (Revelation 11:18 NASB)

: Lehigh  Sat Jan 19, 2013 - 21:20:26So Peter is saying, "If they will trust Jesus, they [Israel] will be redeemed, their sins will be forgiven and times of refreshing will come, and when Jesus returns to reward those who trust Him and destroy those who reject Him, they will be safe"

So are you saying that Israel repented and that is why the Lord Jesus returned?

You also left out the part about the "presence" of the Lord Jesus which will happen when the Father sends back the Son:

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, that the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you" (Acts 3:19-20).

When did every eye see Him since He was present in the clouds of the sky:

"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him" (Rev.1:7).

You have to then consider what God's presence is.
Scripture teaches that God is everywhere; nobody can hide from him (Ps. 139:7-18). But his presence is more than that. It includes God's commitment to us.

The "I AM" (Ex. 3:14) says "I will be with you" (3:12). The Lord promises to be with Israel as he delivers them from slavery.  So he takes a people to be his own: "I will be your God, and you shall be my people" (see Gen. 17:7, Lev. 26:12, 2 Cor. 6:16, Rev. 21:3-4). They become his family. Sometimes singles out his own people for special judgments (Amos 3:2); but the Lord's main purpose is to bless his people– beyond anything they can imagine.

The chief blessing is the Lord's own presence. He was with Israel in the tabernacle and in the fiery cloud that led them through the wilderness. After they sinned, the Lord offered to let them go to the promised land without him. Moses protested, "if your presence does not go with us, do not send us up from here" (Ex. 33:2, 15). God relented and went with them. Canaan, with all its milk and honey, would have been worthless without the Lord himself.

All this is fulfilled in Jesus. He is "God with us," "Immanuel" (Isa. 7:14, Matt. 1:23). He is God's tabernacle with his people (in John 1:14, "dwelled" means "tabernacled").

Times of refreshing came for the Remnant of Israel, (Dan9) and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

: Lehigh  Mon Jan 21, 2013 - 19:52:44
You have to then consider what God's presence is. Scripture teaches that God is everywhere; nobody can hide from him (Ps. 139:7-18). But his presence is more than that. It includes God's commitment to us.

We are talking about the "presence" of the Lord Jesus as He exists in bodily form. We can see that He must be sent back before we can enjoy the time of refreshment in His "presence":

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, that the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you" (Acts 3:19-20).

It would take a repentance from the nation of Israel in order for the Father to send back the Son in order that they could enjoy the times of refreshing from the 'presence" of the Lord. So His "presence" does not occur until He will be sent back to earth. 

Times of refreshing came for the Remnant of Israel, (Dan9) and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

That is referring to Daniel's city and his people, the Jews:

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy" (Dan.9:24).

This verse has not yet been fulfilled because it is obvious that "everlasting rightousness" has not come upon Jerusalem.

: Jerry Shugart  Tue Jan 22, 2013 - 12:06:30


We are talking about the "presence" of the Lord Jesus as He exists in bodily form. We can see that He must be sent back before we can enjoy the time of refreshment in His "presence":

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, that the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you" (Acts 3:19-20).

No, the Lord wasn't to appear to Israel in the physical realm. We know this & prove this point by the fact that Jesus (speaking to His Jewish apostles & disciples) told them not to look in the "inner rooms," etc,for the Son of man coming,. Not to believe any of those who say to either! Also, remember that the NASB rightly translated "the Messiah chosen for you (the Jews)
Hebrews 9:10

10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.

The time of reformation of Israel came with the Messiah's new law of grace. Peter (a Jew) tells the disciples pre-AD70, that "the end of all things" is at hand.  Those "all things" were the elements of the Old Covenant law which would be shaken out of heaven when the passing away of the old took place- at the end of the "Jewish age" in AD70

This is not to be disconnected from its parallel Scriptures in Dan.12, etc. 
The destruction of Judah and Jerusalem & the temple made with hands in AD70, was when the "power of the holy people was finally shattered."

The mystery of God was complete. The remnant Jew & believing gentiles in Christ inherited the "kingdom of God and of His Christ "(Rev.11)


  That is who Peter is appealing to in Acts 3:19-20. It's to all Jews in that passage. However, in Acts 2, Peter's immediate sermon brought repentance and salvation to those Jews he was addressing. Peter told the scoffers in the last days that God's desire was to have all come into repentance so as many as possible would inherit the new heaven and earth under the Messiah. But the scoffers challenged Peter, saying things were still the same as when the fathers died (1500  prior) It wasn't going to be any different with the apostles- as it had been decades now since Jesus "promised" His coming to the apostles. But Peter says that God is not slack with His promises- repent! the kingdom is at hand.

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy" (Dan.9:24).

This verse has not yet been fulfilled because it is obvious that "everlasting rightousness" has not come upon Jerusalem.

[/quote]

Peter is addressing JEWS in Acts 3:19-20, etc.  That IS who "the holy people are"   The "Messiah IS the Most Holy in the passage. Daniel's "people" were always "Jews" And JESUS IS the EVERLASTING RIGHTEOUSNESS they were to accept or not.

Good grief. Prophecies in Scripture aren't stand alone ideas.

The N.T. fulfills the prophecies in the O.T.   They both tell a story and a time frame to recognize both.


The only last word I want to hear you say is, "Yes, I understand what Jesus told us, we aren't supposed to have looked for Him in the flesh or say to anyone else, "there He is!"

: Lehigh  Thu Jan 24, 2013 - 11:35:28No, the Lord wasn't to appear to Israel in the physical realm.

How could His coming be described as an "appearance" if no one could see Him?

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2).

: Jerry Shugart  Thu Jan 17, 2013 - 10:55:34

: Grappler  Wed Jan 16, 2013 - 20:29:49
Lehigh when i read your post "don't try to twist the logic of the Scripture..."  i got a good little laugh....With all due respect preterism is one of the most illogical doctrines that i have ever heard of.  You people can't even answer simple questions that i have asked without twisting scripture or denying scripture or just not answering. Why do you even care about discussing end of the age events?  Are you curious?  Are you having doubts about your own beliefs?  You need to remember what stormcrow and convenater said about the uselessness of discussing end time events. ::smile::

Grappler,

Although I do not agree with Lehigh in regard to his eschatology at least he answers questions and he is not afraid to give his interpretation of verses which are presented to him.

The same cannot be said for you. You will only address the things which you think matches your views but when confronted with verses that prove that you are wrong you run away as fast as you can. You refuse to tackle those verses and instead of attempting to answer all we hear from you are your snide remarks.

Your act is getting old and nothing you say makes a positive contribulation to this forum. That is why those who have had discussions with you DO NOT TAKE YOU SERIOUSLY.

Sir, Your first mistake was claiming i don't give an answer to your pre-trib. escape theory...as i have told you over and over and over i once tried to believe that nonsense...but just couldn't do it any longer and call myself a bible believing Christian.  Your second mistake was calling Lehigh a he.  And your last mistake on this post was claiming that i have an act.  I will gladly die for that "act" as you so rudely call it... ::smile::

We are talking about the "presence" of the Lord Jesus as He exists in bodily form.

Why?  That's the antithesis of the gospel message, which is that the God is already actually present, living in His body, which is the church.

Don't you believe that God is really here with us?

: Wycliffes_Shillelagh  Fri Jan 25, 2013 - 17:51:10

We are talking about the "presence" of the Lord Jesus as He exists in bodily form.

Why?  That's the antithesis of the gospel message, which is that the God is already actually present, living in His body, which is the church.

Don't you believe that God is really here with us?

I think that what he is referring to is Acts 1:11.  This is Jesus' ascension back to the Father.  The two divine messengers plainly told the disciples that Jesus was going to come back just as they were seeing him ascend.  This would be a literal return since he literally ascended wouldn't you think?  It is actually quite simple even a child can understand it.

: Jerry Shugart  Fri Jan 25, 2013 - 15:37:35

: Lehigh  Thu Jan 24, 2013 - 11:35:28No, the Lord wasn't to appear to Israel in the physical realm.

How could His coming be described as an "appearance" if no one could see Him?

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2).

Notice John doesn't say "for we shall see Him as he WAS!"

: Lehigh  Fri Jan 25, 2013 - 18:20:31Notice John doesn't say "for we shall see Him as he WAS!"

Is that all you can say about my response to what you said here?:

No, the Lord wasn't to appear to Israel in the physical realm.

How could His coming be described as an "appearance" if no one could see Him?

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2).

Your question answered nothing about what I said. Of course the Apostle John doesn't say "for we shall see Him as he WAS!" because John was speaking about seeing Him in the future.

You stay in a state of confusion.

: Grappler  Fri Jan 25, 2013 - 17:44:19
Sir, Your first mistake was claiming i don't give an answer to your pre-trib. escape theory...

Sir, you have a short memory. You refused over and over to address what I said about the following pre-trib escape:

"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev.3:10).

Your eschatology is entirely dependent on a rapture which happens during the time after the great tribulation. However, when we take a close look at the following passage we can know that this is not speaking of the rapture:

"... so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left" (Mt.24:39-41).

The Sheep and the Goats

In the same discourse where the Lord Jesus spoke of some be taken and the others being left he spoke of the sheep and the goats. It is plain that the sheep are the righteous and that they will not be taken but instead they will be left to inherit the kingdom:

"Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Mt.25:34).

It is equally evident that it is the goats who are the unrighteous and it is clear that they are the ones who will be taken:

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels...And these shall go away into everlasting punishment" (Mt.25:41,46).

They are the ones who will depart and go away so they are the ones who will be taken:

"Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left" (Mt.24:40-41).

The righteous will inherit the kingdom and they are the ones who will remain.

This cannot possibly be referring to the rapture because then it will be the righteous who will be taken and the unrighteous who will be left. Besides that, it is impossible to reconcile the events described in the 24th and 25th chapter of Matthew with this passage with a post-trib rapture.

The End of the Age

The Lord Jesus' words about some being taken and and others being left on the earth cannot be referring to the rapture because at Matthew 24:40-41 the Lord Jesus was answering His disciples' question as to what will happen at the "end of the age":

"Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the age?" (Mt.24:3).

Earlier the Lord Jesus spoke the parable of the "tares of the field" where He described what would occur at the "end of the age":

"He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear" (Mt. 13:37-43).

Here we can see that the Lord Jesus speaks of a harvest that will happen at the "end of the age." He also makes it clear that at the harvest it will be the unrighteous who will be taken and the righteous who will be left, the opposite of what will happen at the rapture.

No. Of those left in Jerusalem (none of which were Christians) -those who are taken would be the Jews to be sold as slaves throughout the Roman Empire in AD70.
The "left" are also synagogue of Satan Jews- killed & left to be eaten by vultures & animals pick their flesh (Rev.19)

: Jerry Shugart  Sat Jan 26, 2013 - 18:31:20

: Grappler  Fri Jan 25, 2013 - 17:44:19
Sir, Your first mistake was claiming i don't give an answer to your pre-trib. escape theory...

Sir, you have a short memory. You refused over and over to address what I said about the following pre-trib escape:

"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev.3:10).

Your eschatology is entirely dependent on a rapture which happens during the time after the great tribulation. However, when we take a close look at the following passage we can know that this is not speaking of the rapture:

"... so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left" (Mt.24:39-41).

The Sheep and the Goats

In the same discourse where the Lord Jesus spoke of some be taken and the others being left he spoke of the sheep and the goats. It is plain that the sheep are the righteous and that they will not be taken but instead they will be left to inherit the kingdom:

"Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Mt.25:34).

It is equally evident that it is the goats who are the unrighteous and it is clear that they are the ones who will be taken:

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels...And these shall go away into everlasting punishment" (Mt.25:41,46).

They are the ones who will depart and go away so they are the ones who will be taken:

"Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left" (Mt.24:40-41).

The righteous will inherit the kingdom and they are the ones who will remain.

This cannot possibly be referring to the rapture because then it will be the righteous who will be taken and the unrighteous who will be left. Besides that, it is impossible to reconcile the events described in the 24th and 25th chapter of Matthew with this passage with a post-trib rapture.

The End of the Age

The Lord Jesus' words about some being taken and and others being left on the earth cannot be referring to the rapture because at Matthew 24:40-41 the Lord Jesus was answering His disciples' question as to what will happen at the "end of the age":

"Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the age?" (Mt.24:3).

Earlier the Lord Jesus spoke the parable of the "tares of the field" where He described what would occur at the "end of the age":

"He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear" (Mt. 13:37-43).

Here we can see that the Lord Jesus speaks of a harvest that will happen at the "end of the age." He also makes it clear that at the harvest it will be the unrighteous who will be taken and the righteous who will be left, the opposite of what will happen at the rapture.

Jerry your brain is unbelievable.lol  Revelation 3:10 says absolutely NOTHING about a pre-tribulation escape.  Nada, Zero. I mean are you kidding me??  God Almighty is able to "keep" us from evil without somekind of fantasy "rapture" that you so dearly are beholden to.  Jesus prayed to his heavenly Father in John 17 to NOT take us out of the world but to keep us from the evil one.  You posted Matt.24 39-41.  Sir..i am really beginning to worry about you.  There is once again NOTHING about a pre-tribulation escape there either. Nada.  Get it?  I noticed you posted nothing about where Jesus said that he is going to gather his elect AFTER the days of tribulation...how convenient. ::cool::

: Grappler  Mon Dec 03, 2012 - 15:12:08
There are no scriptures that teach a pre-tribulation rapture.

The original OP was "There is a belief today that is being taught, that Christ Returns before the Tribulation period? What Scriptures teach this doctrine? That Christ comes BEFORE the tribulations?"

Suddenly, we are discussing the Pre-trib Rapture?  OK, here's a good argument for the Pre-Trib Rapture:
By Todd Strandberg of RaptureReady.com

What is the Pretribulation Rapture?
The rapture is an event that will take place sometime in the near future. Jesus will come in the air, catch up the Church from the earth, and then return to heaven with the Church. The Apostle Paul gave a clear description of the rapture event in his letters to the Thessalonians and Corinthians.

Continue reading:
http://www.raptureready.com/rr-pretribulation-rapture.html (http://www.raptureready.com/rr-pretribulation-rapture.html)

: Stucky  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 15:42:10

: Grappler  Mon Dec 03, 2012 - 15:12:08
There are no scriptures that teach a pre-tribulation rapture.

The original OP was "There is a belief today that is being taught, that Christ Returns before the Tribulation period? What Scriptures teach this doctrine? That Christ comes BEFORE the tribulations?"

Suddenly, we are discussing the Pre-trib Rapture?  OK, here's a good argument for the Pre-Trib Rapture:
By Todd Strandberg of RaptureReady.com

What is the Pretribulation Rapture?
The rapture is an event that will take place sometime in the near future. Jesus will come in the air, catch up the Church from the earth, and then return to heaven with the Church. The Apostle Paul gave a clear description of the rapture event in his letters to the Thessalonians and Corinthians.

Continue reading:
http://www.raptureready.com/rr-pretribulation-rapture.html (http://www.raptureready.com/rr-pretribulation-rapture.html)

Are you new to his site Stucky??  I appreciate your enthusiasm...bouncing around all over the place...it is kind of cute you know like a little puppy.lol  This particular post has been going on for awhile so what i need you to do is go back and read all of my posts on this subject and it will really help you out and give you a new understanding of scripture and exactly where i am coming from OR just continue to believe in your pre-trib. escape theory.  God bless you and have a good evening. ::tippinghat::

: Grappler  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 16:03:19

: Stucky  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 15:42:10

: Grappler  Mon Dec 03, 2012 - 15:12:08
There are no scriptures that teach a pre-tribulation rapture.

The original OP was "There is a belief today that is being taught, that Christ Returns before the Tribulation period? What Scriptures teach this doctrine? That Christ comes BEFORE the tribulations?"

Suddenly, we are discussing the Pre-trib Rapture?  OK, here's a good argument for the Pre-Trib Rapture:
By Todd Strandberg of RaptureReady.com

What is the Pretribulation Rapture?
The rapture is an event that will take place sometime in the near future. Jesus will come in the air, catch up the Church from the earth, and then return to heaven with the Church. The Apostle Paul gave a clear description of the rapture event in his letters to the Thessalonians and Corinthians.

Continue reading:
http://www.raptureready.com/rr-pretribulation-rapture.html (http://www.raptureready.com/rr-pretribulation-rapture.html)

Are you new to his site Stucky??  I appreciate your enthusiasm...bouncing around all over the place...it is kind of cute you know like a little puppy.lol  This particular post has been going on for awhile so what i need you to do is go back and read all of my posts on this subject and it will really help you out and give you a new understanding of scripture and exactly where i am coming from OR just continue to believe in your pre-trib. escape theory.  God bless you and have a good evening. ::tippinghat::

::smile::Why, yes, Grappler, I am new.  Thanks for appreciating my enthusiasm and for your cute little passive/aggressive snide comment.  No, I dont think I will do that, thank you.  ::smile:: I rely on the Holy Spirit to guide me on my understanding of scripture, not some one that doesnt interpret it correctly in my opinion.  Thanks, I WILL continue to believe in my pre-trib escape theory, thank you very much and I will accept your apology when we meet in Heaven.  God bless you and have a good evening too.   ::tippinghat::

: Stucky  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 16:14:35

: Grappler  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 16:03:19

: Stucky  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 15:42:10

: Grappler  Mon Dec 03, 2012 - 15:12:08
There are no scriptures that teach a pre-tribulation rapture.

The original OP was "There is a belief today that is being taught, that Christ Returns before the Tribulation period? What Scriptures teach this doctrine? That Christ comes BEFORE the tribulations?"

Suddenly, we are discussing the Pre-trib Rapture?  OK, here's a good argument for the Pre-Trib Rapture:
By Todd Strandberg of RaptureReady.com

What is the Pretribulation Rapture?
The rapture is an event that will take place sometime in the near future. Jesus will come in the air, catch up the Church from the earth, and then return to heaven with the Church. The Apostle Paul gave a clear description of the rapture event in his letters to the Thessalonians and Corinthians.

Continue reading:
http://www.raptureready.com/rr-pretribulation-rapture.html (http://www.raptureready.com/rr-pretribulation-rapture.html)

Are you new to his site Stucky??  I appreciate your enthusiasm...bouncing around all over the place...it is kind of cute you know like a little puppy.lol  This particular post has been going on for awhile so what i need you to do is go back and read all of my posts on this subject and it will really help you out and give you a new understanding of scripture and exactly where i am coming from OR just continue to believe in your pre-trib. escape theory.  God bless you and have a good evening. ::tippinghat::

::smile::Why, yes, Grappler, I am new.  Thanks for appreciating my enthusiasm and for your cute little passive/aggressive snide comment.  No, I dont think I will do that, thank you.  ::smile:: I rely on the Holy Spirit to guide me on my understanding of scripture, not some one that doesnt interpret it correctly in my opinion.  Thanks, I WILL continue to believe in my pre-trib escape theory, thank you very much and I will accept your apology when we meet in Heaven.  God bless you and have a good evening too.   ::tippinghat::

LOL i didn't think you would have the courage.

: Grappler  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 16:33:38

: Stucky  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 16:14:35

: Grappler  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 16:03:19

: Stucky  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 15:42:10

: Grappler  Mon Dec 03, 2012 - 15:12:08
There are no scriptures that teach a pre-tribulation rapture.

The original OP was "There is a belief today that is being taught, that Christ Returns before the Tribulation period? What Scriptures teach this doctrine? That Christ comes BEFORE the tribulations?"

Suddenly, we are discussing the Pre-trib Rapture?  OK, here's a good argument for the Pre-Trib Rapture:
By Todd Strandberg of RaptureReady.com

What is the Pretribulation Rapture?
The rapture is an event that will take place sometime in the near future. Jesus will come in the air, catch up the Church from the earth, and then return to heaven with the Church. The Apostle Paul gave a clear description of the rapture event in his letters to the Thessalonians and Corinthians.

Continue reading:
http://www.raptureready.com/rr-pretribulation-rapture.html (http://www.raptureready.com/rr-pretribulation-rapture.html)

Are you new to his site Stucky??  I appreciate your enthusiasm...bouncing around all over the place...it is kind of cute you know like a little puppy.lol  This particular post has been going on for awhile so what i need you to do is go back and read all of my posts on this subject and it will really help you out and give you a new understanding of scripture and exactly where i am coming from OR just continue to believe in your pre-trib. escape theory.  God bless you and have a good evening. ::tippinghat::

::smile::Why, yes, Grappler, I am new.  Thanks for appreciating my enthusiasm and for your cute little passive/aggressive snide comment.  No, I dont think I will do that, thank you.  ::smile:: I rely on the Holy Spirit to guide me on my understanding of scripture, not some one that doesnt interpret it correctly in my opinion.  Thanks, I WILL continue to believe in my pre-trib escape theory, thank you very much and I will accept your apology when we meet in Heaven.  God bless you and have a good evening too.   ::tippinghat::

LOL i didn't think you would have the courage.

I have more courage than you can imagine.  Is that all you have to say about my character?  ::eatingpopcorn:

: Stucky  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 16:39:27

: Grappler  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 16:33:38

: Stucky  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 16:14:35

: Grappler  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 16:03:19

: Stucky  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 15:42:10

: Grappler  Mon Dec 03, 2012 - 15:12:08
There are no scriptures that teach a pre-tribulation rapture.

The original OP was "There is a belief today that is being taught, that Christ Returns before the Tribulation period? What Scriptures teach this doctrine? That Christ comes BEFORE the tribulations?"

Suddenly, we are discussing the Pre-trib Rapture?  OK, here's a good argument for the Pre-Trib Rapture:
By Todd Strandberg of RaptureReady.com

What is the Pretribulation Rapture?
The rapture is an event that will take place sometime in the near future. Jesus will come in the air, catch up the Church from the earth, and then return to heaven with the Church. The Apostle Paul gave a clear description of the rapture event in his letters to the Thessalonians and Corinthians.

Continue reading:
http://www.raptureready.com/rr-pretribulation-rapture.html (http://www.raptureready.com/rr-pretribulation-rapture.html)

Are you new to his site Stucky??  I appreciate your enthusiasm...bouncing around all over the place...it is kind of cute you know like a little puppy.lol  This particular post has been going on for awhile so what i need you to do is go back and read all of my posts on this subject and it will really help you out and give you a new understanding of scripture and exactly where i am coming from OR just continue to believe in your pre-trib. escape theory.  God bless you and have a good evening. ::tippinghat::

::smile::Why, yes, Grappler, I am new.  Thanks for appreciating my enthusiasm and for your cute little passive/aggressive snide comment.  No, I dont think I will do that, thank you.  ::smile:: I rely on the Holy Spirit to guide me on my understanding of scripture, not some one that doesnt interpret it correctly in my opinion.  Thanks, I WILL continue to believe in my pre-trib escape theory, thank you very much and I will accept your apology when we meet in Heaven.  God bless you and have a good evening too.   ::tippinghat::

LOL i didn't think you would have the courage.

I have more courage than you can imagine.  Is that all you have to say about my character?  ::eatingpopcorn:

Hmm well let me see... ::pondering:: uh yep thats about it. ::smile::

: Grappler  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 17:59:01

: Stucky  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 16:39:27

: Grappler  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 16:33:38

: Stucky  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 16:14:35

: Grappler  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 16:03:19

: Stucky  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 15:42:10

: Grappler  Mon Dec 03, 2012 - 15:12:08
There are no scriptures that teach a pre-tribulation rapture.

The original OP was "There is a belief today that is being taught, that Christ Returns before the Tribulation period? What Scriptures teach this doctrine? That Christ comes BEFORE the tribulations?"

Suddenly, we are discussing the Pre-trib Rapture?  OK, here's a good argument for the Pre-Trib Rapture:
By Todd Strandberg of RaptureReady.com

What is the Pretribulation Rapture?
The rapture is an event that will take place sometime in the near future. Jesus will come in the air, catch up the Church from the earth, and then return to heaven with the Church. The Apostle Paul gave a clear description of the rapture event in his letters to the Thessalonians and Corinthians.

Continue reading:
http://www.raptureready.com/rr-pretribulation-rapture.html (http://www.raptureready.com/rr-pretribulation-rapture.html)

Are you new to his site Stucky??  I appreciate your enthusiasm...bouncing around all over the place...it is kind of cute you know like a little puppy.lol  This particular post has been going on for awhile so what i need you to do is go back and read all of my posts on this subject and it will really help you out and give you a new understanding of scripture and exactly where i am coming from OR just continue to believe in your pre-trib. escape theory.  God bless you and have a good evening. ::tippinghat::

::smile::Why, yes, Grappler, I am new.  Thanks for appreciating my enthusiasm and for your cute little passive/aggressive snide comment.  No, I dont think I will do that, thank you.  ::smile:: I rely on the Holy Spirit to guide me on my understanding of scripture, not some one that doesnt interpret it correctly in my opinion.  Thanks, I WILL continue to believe in my pre-trib escape theory, thank you very much and I will accept your apology when we meet in Heaven.  God bless you and have a good evening too.   ::tippinghat::

LOL i didn't think you would have the courage.

I have more courage than you can imagine.  Is that all you have to say about my character?  ::eatingpopcorn:

Hmm well let me see... ::pondering:: uh yep thats about it. ::smile::

OK, makes no sense but I can accept that you have nothing to say so the discussion is over.   ::smile::

: Stucky  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 18:04:41

: Grappler  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 17:59:01

: Stucky  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 16:39:27

: Grappler  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 16:33:38

: Stucky  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 16:14:35

: Grappler  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 16:03:19

: Stucky  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 15:42:10

: Grappler  Mon Dec 03, 2012 - 15:12:08
There are no scriptures that teach a pre-tribulation rapture.

The original OP was "There is a belief today that is being taught, that Christ Returns before the Tribulation period? What Scriptures teach this doctrine? That Christ comes BEFORE the tribulations?"

Suddenly, we are discussing the Pre-trib Rapture?  OK, here's a good argument for the Pre-Trib Rapture:
By Todd Strandberg of RaptureReady.com

What is the Pretribulation Rapture?
The rapture is an event that will take place sometime in the near future. Jesus will come in the air, catch up the Church from the earth, and then return to heaven with the Church. The Apostle Paul gave a clear description of the rapture event in his letters to the Thessalonians and Corinthians.

Continue reading:
http://www.raptureready.com/rr-pretribulation-rapture.html (http://www.raptureready.com/rr-pretribulation-rapture.html)

Are you new to his site Stucky??  I appreciate your enthusiasm...bouncing around all over the place...it is kind of cute you know like a little puppy.lol  This particular post has been going on for awhile so what i need you to do is go back and read all of my posts on this subject and it will really help you out and give you a new understanding of scripture and exactly where i am coming from OR just continue to believe in your pre-trib. escape theory.  God bless you and have a good evening. ::tippinghat::

::smile::Why, yes, Grappler, I am new.  Thanks for appreciating my enthusiasm and for your cute little passive/aggressive snide comment.  No, I dont think I will do that, thank you.  ::smile:: I rely on the Holy Spirit to guide me on my understanding of scripture, not some one that doesnt interpret it correctly in my opinion.  Thanks, I WILL continue to believe in my pre-trib escape theory, thank you very much and I will accept your apology when we meet in Heaven.  God bless you and have a good evening too.   ::tippinghat::

LOL i didn't think you would have the courage.

I have more courage than you can imagine.  Is that all you have to say about my character?  ::eatingpopcorn:

Hmm well let me see... ::pondering:: uh yep thats about it. ::smile::

OK, makes no sense but I can accept that you have nothing to say so the discussion is over.   ::smile::

YUP!

: DiscipleDave  Thu Sep 13, 2012 - 20:49:32
There is a belief today that is being taught, that Christ Returns before the Tribulation period? What Scriptures teach this doctrine? That Christ comes BEFORE the tribulations?

^i^

There are NONE!  Daniel; Matt. 13; Matt. 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; 2 Thess 2; 2 Tim. 3-4:5; and Revelation are against such fable.

RB

: Red Baker  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 18:39:35

: DiscipleDave  Thu Sep 13, 2012 - 20:49:32
There is a belief today that is being taught, that Christ Returns before the Tribulation period? What Scriptures teach this doctrine? That Christ comes BEFORE the tribulations?

^i^

There are NONE!  Daniel; Matt. 13; Matt. 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; 2 Thess 2; 2 Tim. 3-4:5; and Revelation are against such fable.

RB

Amen brother.  But you have to admit it is rather amusing sometimes watching them defend this false doctrine.

: Grappler  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 19:25:52

: Red Baker  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 18:39:35

: DiscipleDave  Thu Sep 13, 2012 - 20:49:32
There is a belief today that is being taught, that Christ Returns before the Tribulation period? What Scriptures teach this doctrine? That Christ comes BEFORE the tribulations?

^i^

There are NONE!  Daniel; Matt. 13; Matt. 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; 2 Thess 2; 2 Tim. 3-4:5; and Revelation are against such fable.

RB

Amen brother.  But you have to admit it is rather amusing sometimes watching them defend this false doctrine.

I have to admit, I have never heard this being taught anywhere.  Can you tell me where this is being taught?

: Stucky  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 19:30:58

: Grappler  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 19:25:52

: Red Baker  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 18:39:35

: DiscipleDave  Thu Sep 13, 2012 - 20:49:32
There is a belief today that is being taught, that Christ Returns before the Tribulation period? What Scriptures teach this doctrine? That Christ comes BEFORE the tribulations?

^i^

There are NONE!  Daniel; Matt. 13; Matt. 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; 2 Thess 2; 2 Tim. 3-4:5; and Revelation are against such fable.

RB

Amen brother.  But you have to admit it is rather amusing sometimes watching them defend this false doctrine.

I have to admit, I have never heard this being taught anywhere.  Can you tell me where this is being taught?

Where what is being taught?

: Grappler  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 19:36:56

: Stucky  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 19:30:58

: Grappler  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 19:25:52

: Red Baker  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 18:39:35

: DiscipleDave  Thu Sep 13, 2012 - 20:49:32
There is a belief today that is being taught, that Christ Returns before the Tribulation period? What Scriptures teach this doctrine? That Christ comes BEFORE the tribulations?

^i^

There are NONE!  Daniel; Matt. 13; Matt. 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; 2 Thess 2; 2 Tim. 3-4:5; and Revelation are against such fable.

RB

Amen brother.  But you have to admit it is rather amusing sometimes watching them defend this false doctrine.

I have to admit, I have never heard this being taught anywhere.  Can you tell me where this is being taught?

Where what is being taught?

::doh::  The subject under discussion dude:  "There is a belief today that is being taught, that Christ Returns before the Tribulation period? What Scriptures teach this doctrine? That Christ comes BEFORE the tribulations?"
You said it was, so where?

: Stucky  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 19:44:02

: Grappler  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 19:36:56

: Stucky  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 19:30:58

: Grappler  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 19:25:52

: Red Baker  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 18:39:35

: DiscipleDave  Thu Sep 13, 2012 - 20:49:32
There is a belief today that is being taught, that Christ Returns before the Tribulation period? What Scriptures teach this doctrine? That Christ comes BEFORE the tribulations?

^i^

There are NONE!  Daniel; Matt. 13; Matt. 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; 2 Thess 2; 2 Tim. 3-4:5; and Revelation are against such fable.

RB

Amen brother.  But you have to admit it is rather amusing sometimes watching them defend this false doctrine.

I have to admit, I have never heard this being taught anywhere.  Can you tell me where this is being taught?

Where what is being taught?

::doh::  The subject under discussion dude:  "There is a belief today that is being taught, that Christ Returns before the Tribulation period? What Scriptures teach this doctrine? That Christ comes BEFORE the tribulations?"
You said it was, so where?

Wow. You are really confused aren't you?  There are no scriptures that teach this doctrine.  If you had went back and read some of my posts on this issue like i suggested you might have a clue as to where we are at on this subject.  A little advice:  before you just jump into a discussion do a little research as to where the discussion has already been. ::smile::

: Grappler  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 20:02:58

: Stucky  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 19:44:02

: Grappler  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 19:36:56

: Stucky  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 19:30:58

: Grappler  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 19:25:52

: Red Baker  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 18:39:35

: DiscipleDave  Thu Sep 13, 2012 - 20:49:32
There is a belief today that is being taught, that Christ Returns before the Tribulation period? What Scriptures teach this doctrine? That Christ comes BEFORE the tribulations?

^i^

There are NONE!  Daniel; Matt. 13; Matt. 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; 2 Thess 2; 2 Tim. 3-4:5; and Revelation are against such fable.

RB

Amen brother.  But you have to admit it is rather amusing sometimes watching them defend this false doctrine.

I have to admit, I have never heard this being taught anywhere.  Can you tell me where this is being taught?

Where what is being taught?

::doh::  The subject under discussion dude:  "There is a belief today that is being taught, that Christ Returns before the Tribulation period? What Scriptures teach this doctrine? That Christ comes BEFORE the tribulations?"
You said it was, so where?

Wow. You are really confused aren't you?  There are no scriptures that teach this doctrine.  If you had went back and read some of my posts on this issue like i suggested you might have a clue as to where we are at on this subject.  A little advice:  before you just jump into a discussion do a little research as to where the discussion has already been. ::smile::

NOTE:  This member has been placed on ignore so his responses to Stucky are irrelevant.

: Stucky  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 20:10:59

: Grappler  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 20:02:58

: Stucky  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 19:44:02

: Grappler  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 19:36:56

: Stucky  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 19:30:58

: Grappler  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 19:25:52

: Red Baker  Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 18:39:35

: DiscipleDave  Thu Sep 13, 2012 - 20:49:32
There is a belief today that is being taught, that Christ Returns before the Tribulation period? What Scriptures teach this doctrine? That Christ comes BEFORE the tribulations?

^i^

There are NONE!  Daniel; Matt. 13; Matt. 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; 2 Thess 2; 2 Tim. 3-4:5; and Revelation are against such fable.

RB

Amen brother.  But you have to admit it is rather amusing sometimes watching them defend this false doctrine.

I have to admit, I have never heard this being taught anywhere.  Can you tell me where this is being taught?

Where what is being taught?

::doh::  The subject under discussion dude:  "There is a belief today that is being taught, that Christ Returns before the Tribulation period? What Scriptures teach this doctrine? That Christ comes BEFORE the tribulations?"
You said it was, so where?

Wow. You are really confused aren't you?  There are no scriptures that teach this doctrine.  If you had went back and read some of my posts on this issue like i suggested you might have a clue as to where we are at on this subject.  A little advice:  before you just jump into a discussion do a little research as to where the discussion has already been. ::smile::

NOTE:  This member has been placed on ignore so his responses to Stucky are irrelevant.

Like me or anyone else cares? ::noworries::