The current trend is to insist that our inherent traits as individual be accepted, regardless of whether society accepts them. But I was reading Codependent No More last night, and I got to the chapter, "learn the art of acceptance." I realized that I had never fully resolved the issue of why I was never attracted to women. I am devoted to Christ, so I am willing to do all for Him -- even to the point of reconsidering my gay identity.
Now, putting this in my own personal context, I have written a book, Teach Me, Loving Jesus, asking how I can find the "anti-gay" (or "traditional family") understanding that is supposed to be in scripture. So far, no one has sent me any eMails telling me how to understand a passage, say I Corinthians 6, in terms of a condemnation of gayness, despite all my misgivings. This is even though I have e-published my book on a website. (I would post the link here, but I understand that it is disallowed.)
So, even though my faith in Christ is strong, the prospect of living as anything but a joyful gay christian seems dim. ::pondering::, ::shrug::
Any thoughts?
Why don't you like women?
Well, like women... interpreting that word in sexual/romantic terms, I have never been attracted to them enough to start the whole dating thing. And, granted, I am speaking of a decision that I made back in the 1980's; maybe back then I put more baggage on the issue than there had to be.
But I have lots of female friends. ::smile::
: IHSscj Sat Nov 03, 2012 - 20:42:59
Well, like women... interpreting that word in sexual/romantic terms, I have never been attracted to them enough to start the whole dating thing. And, granted, I am speaking of a decision that I made back in the 1980's; maybe back then I put more baggage on the issue than there had to be.
But I have lots of female friends. ::smile::
Not sure that makes you gay.
Have you asked God to help ignite feelings for women.
It is proper to reconsider a homosexual identity, as we are to take on Jesus' identity. There is no joy in walking in enmity against God and His word, and there is no reconciling a homosexual lifestyle with a life of serving and honouring the Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 1:32
Although they know God's judgment that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do these things but also approve of others who do them.
: Lively Stone Sat Nov 03, 2012 - 23:15:31
It is proper to reconsider a homosexual identity, as we are to take on Jesus' identity. There is no joy in walking in enmity against God and His word, and there is no reconciling a homosexual lifestyle with a life of serving and honouring the Lord Jesus Christ.
This is where I have reached a "pause" (shall we say) in my reconsideration: Is gayness (homosexuality)
truly inherently in emnity against God? ::discernment::
: Lively Stone Sat Nov 03, 2012 - 23:15:31
Romans 1:32
Although they know God's judgment that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do these things but also approve of others who do them.
And who were "they?" ::The B-I-B-L-E, yes that's th
[quote from FireSword:]Have you asked God to help ignite feelings for women?
It hasn't generally been a concern for me to bring to God. But this is the thing: Apparently there are christians for whom it is a concern. ::whistle::
: IHSscj Sun Nov 04, 2012 - 19:43:08
: Lively Stone Sat Nov 03, 2012 - 23:15:31
It is proper to reconsider a homosexual identity, as we are to take on Jesus' identity. There is no joy in walking in enmity against God and His word, and there is no reconciling a homosexual lifestyle with a life of serving and honouring the Lord Jesus Christ.
This is where I have reached a "pause" (shall we say) in my reconsideration: Is gayness (homosexuality) truly inherently in emnity against God? ::discernment::
If one claims to be a Christian and continues to live in sin without repentance, he is thumbing one's nose at God. So, yes, it is living in enmity toward God.
Hebrews 10:26Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins.
: Lively Stone Sat Nov 03, 2012 - 23:15:31
Romans 1:32
Although they know God's judgment that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do these things but also approve of others who do them.
And who were "they?" ::The B-I-B-L-E, yes that's th
'They' are those who indulge in sin and those who support their lawlessness.
And what does that have to do with gayness? ::lookaround::
I'm a single man, and you know, this gets me thinking that the issue is about appreciating the way God did make you as a man. A man is naturally attracted to a woman because of her as a compliment. Nobody needs to be sexually attracted to anyone to be a good Christian, but if someone is attracted to members of the same sex, I believe that could be rooted in failing to appreciate oneself as the sex that he/she is (which I believe is a prevalent issue). And in general, I think sexual purity is about self-respect.
Cally, I am going to disagree with this statement:
Nobody needs to be sexually attracted to anyone to be a good Christian
The reason is simple: God gave us the FIRST commandment (chronologically speaking) when He told Adam and Mrs. Adam to "... be fruitful and multiply." God designed reproduction to be via sex, and a lack of that kind of attraction flies in the face of that command.
: IHSscj Mon Nov 05, 2012 - 00:27:13
And what does that have to do with gayness? ::lookaround::
What are you saying---that being a homosexual is acceptable to God?
: IHSscj Sun Nov 04, 2012 - 19:57:48
[quote from FireSword:]Have you asked God to help ignite feelings for women?
It hasn't generally been a concern for me to bring to God. But this is the thing: Apparently there are christians for whom it is a concern. ::whistle::
It is a concern because God made men to be attracted to women and visa versa. However if you are OK with not geting married and not having kids and never having sex, then thats OK I guess. If I were sexually attracted to the same sex as me I would have been praying hard for God to change me, and for Him to get to the root of why I am like that. [/quote]
: IHSscj Sat Nov 03, 2012 - 20:42:59
Well, like women... interpreting that word in sexual/romantic terms, I have never been attracted to them enough to start the whole dating thing. And, granted, I am speaking of a decision that I made back in the 1980's; maybe back then I put more baggage on the issue than there had to be.
But I have lots of female friends. ::smile::
I think that you need to 'unmake' that decision after all this time. Many things can make people think they are gay. For example there may have been sexual abuse by a man as a child, or a very controlling and domineering mother and a weak father, among other things.
: DaveW Mon Nov 05, 2012 - 08:49:36
Cally, I am going to disagree with this statement:
Nobody needs to be sexually attracted to anyone to be a good Christian
The reason is simple: God gave us the FIRST commandment (chronologically speaking) when He told Adam and Mrs. Adam to "... be fruitful and multiply." God designed reproduction to be via sex, and a lack of that kind of attraction flies in the face of that command.
Some guys are given the gift of singlehood. It depends on the person's calling. I know don't have to remind you of Paul and his words about that.
: Cally Mon Nov 05, 2012 - 20:09:17
Some guys are given the gift of singlehood. It depends on the person's calling. I know don't have to remind you of Paul and his words about that.
I agree with that. But like many of God's gifts they are somewhat rare.
How many people do you know with a true gift of healing?
And who said Paul was not attracted to women? If he was trained at the feet of Gamaliel as he claimed, (i.e. in the school of G's grandfather Hillel) Paul would have been REQUIRED to be married to a daughter of a graduate of the school of Shammai.
Regarding the Old Testament commandments, I think it is important to keep in mind that they were written with the intention of being used as a set of laws for a group of people.
Set homosexuality in that context. When any civilization falls into such practices, negative effects follow. A lower birthrate leads to problems with elder care, because there aren't enough people to support the previous generation as they lose the ability to support themselves. A higher incidence of STD's further decimates the population.
So, like so many rules, it is the effects at the level of mass-use that are problematic. That however, does not excuse individuals from following the rule. After all, if enough individuals take their liberty, we find ourselves with a problem.
While the OT laws (or most of em) may have been abrogated, the cause and effects remain the same. This is probably why homosexuality is also prohibited in the NT.
Changing gears for a moment...
Why is it that most gays and lesbians build their identity around their sex life? To me there appears to be something wrong there. I understand that one's identity has to be built around something, but sex? That's something that ought to be private, not out on display. The only straight people I know that build an identity around sex are people I would consider to be womanizers or sluts. Now, I don't know you, and perhaps you have a monogamous relationship of some sort, so apologies if this misses the mark.
I would agree with Cally, in that it seems that many/most gay men have issues with masculinity. Not really surprising, given the way our culture worships women, often at the expense of men. When women are esteemed higher than men, men will want to be women (or vice versa).
Jarrod
A couple of questions for you.
1.Did you ever have any incidents in your life that might have caused you to turn more towards people of the same sex?
2. Does the whole idea that "being gay" is now the "in" way to be, have any bearing on your identity?
Incidents? not that I can think of. But I have always tended to dispense with conventions (i.e. conventional ways of thinking). Over the years I have learned to do all for Christ's sake, be all that I am for Christ's sake, and follow Christ as He leads me away from what offends Him.
The "in" way to be -- well, I guess that would fly in the face of what I just said. But I accepted myself as gay in the 1980's.
IHSscj~
A person who embraced being homosexual at one time and now embraces Jesus Christ needs a paradigm shift. You need to know who you are in Christ, from whom you receive your new identity.
Saying you are 'gay' and also a Christian is an oxymoron.
If you truly walk with the Lord Jesus Christ, then you receive your identity from Him---so you now must identify as a Christian, and drop the 'gay' moniker.
If you do not, you will appear to be like the Israelites, who were miraculously freed from their bondage as slaves in Egypt, and soon found themselves yearning to go back there. What did God think of them when they started hankering back to their enslavement?
: DaveW Tue Nov 06, 2012 - 06:17:48
: Cally Mon Nov 05, 2012 - 20:09:17
Some guys are given the gift of singlehood. It depends on the person's calling. I know don't have to remind you of Paul and his words about that.
I agree with that. But like many of God's gifts they are somewhat rare.
How many people do you know with a true gift of healing?
And who said Paul was not attracted to women? If he was trained at the feet of Gamaliel as he claimed, (i.e. in the school of G's grandfather Hillel) Paul would have been REQUIRED to be married to a daughter of a graduate of the school of Shammai.
What is this nonsense ::eatingpopcorn:
All of this assumes that gayness is inherently sinful, which is an idea that I want to examine very closely and prayerfully. ::pondering::
The thing is, I've studied the so-called "slamming" scriptures (which, in reality, are no more or less the "Word of God" than the rest of the scriptures from which they are cherry-picked):
Genesis 18 & 19
Leviticus 18: 22 & 20: 13
Judges 19- 21
Romans 1: 18 - 2: 1
I Corinthians 6
I Timothy 1: 9- 11
I've looked at what conservative christians say they mean, what liberal christians say they (might) mean, and come up with no solid antigay p.o.v. This is not to say that I believe that I can dispense with christian ethics as a whole. But finding a fellow-christian who can explain how s/he knows that gayness is always sinful, that has been fruitless so far.
I am not sure that having same sex attraction is sinful if it cant be helped, but doing anything about it is sinful. We all have temptations to sin, but it is whether we actually dwell on it and commit that sin that is what is wrong.
What do you think?
Sin = anything that misses the mark (the original words are archery terms) or falls short of the target.
Even the attraction for the same sex and where the mind goes because of it is sin. god is not the genesis of these unholy desires. It is of the flesh and the devil, and the desire is at enmity with God. Those who know Jesus Christ have the benefit of handing over their base desires to Him and enjoy His replacement of His goodness and righteous desires.
Psalm 37:4
Delight yourself also in the LORD, And He shall give you the desires of your heart.
This verse doesn't necessarily mean only that He grants you your desires, but that He places the actual right desires in us, when we delight in Him.
: DaveW Sun Nov 18, 2012 - 09:09:52
Sin = anything that misses the mark (the original words are archery terms) or falls short of the target.
I suppose I see it that a man cant help initially noticing an attractive lady, but he can then choose whether he stares at her and goes on to lust. The same surely applies to a man with a man or a woman with a woman? The temptation isnt a sin, after all Jesus was tempted, its what you do when you are tempted that is the important thing.
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Fri Nov 09, 2012 - 13:56:43
Why is it that most gays and lesbians build their identity around their sex life? To me there appears to be something wrong there. I understand that one's identity has to be built around something, but sex? That's something that ought to be private, not out on display. The only straight people I know that build an identity around sex are people I would consider to be womanizers or sluts. Now, I don't know you, and perhaps you have a monogamous relationship of some sort, so apologies if this misses the mark.
Very well said. I was trying to say this before--what's up with one's sexual preferences being a central source of identity?
I would agree with Cally, in that it seems that many/most gay men have issues with masculinity. Not really surprising, given the way our culture worships women, often at the expense of men. When women are esteemed higher than men, men will want to be women (or vice versa).
Jarrod
::droppingjaw:: What is this dose of common sense doing here?!
I mean really, a great deal of the time gay men are easily identified by their feminine mannerisms which is EXACTLY why the issue is on the table. I mean, actual homosexual behavior is something we pretty much never see if we aren't looking for it, yet the issue is on the table. It's on the table because it's not quite so subtle!
And we see the problem around here with gender-neutral attitudes, like nothing comes along with male/female beyond genitalia--how many times have I heard arguments to this effect? And yet we see such behavior differences come along with gender confusions--that should make some people stop and rethink that: there IS such a thing as "acting like a woman" and "acting like a man." Many people aren't putting this together: this homosexual acceptance is coming right along with feminism and "progressive" attitudes that say that gender is nothing and has no importance, carrying no innate traits. Both masculinity and femininity are being put down.
But to add to your comment, somehow it feels like a man is supposed to think it's a crime to like himself as a man these days (like it's offensive to many women). But I firmly believe that's the first step to helping gay men: being a man and masculine is great! And so is being a woman and feminine.
Agreed! ::applause::
[in reference to:
Reply #24 by DaveW on: November 18, 2012, 08:09:52 AM ยป
Sin = anything that misses the mark (the original words are archery terms) or falls short of the target.]
Hi
Very interesting subject - something I know a little about, as my ex struggled with same sex attractions too. In his case though, he does have attraction for women and is drawn to them in a romantic, sexual way, but he also has a drive toward his own sex. In his case though, he can trace the feelings starting to emerge after prolonged abuse in his teenage years and having inadequate male support at home. For him, it was easy to make a connection, but I also accept that it is not that straightfroward for others.
So, can I ask a couple of questions. Firstly, what do you want? What would make you happy? And on a slightly more personal note (which you might not want to answer), are you sexually active? That would seem to be none of my business, but I personally make a distinction between 'being gay' and 'gay practice'. The only way I can understand it, is that we are all born broken and into a sinful world. We all have impulses to do things which are not what God wants us to do - we all have (if we choose to) make a daily (often hour by hour) surrender to Christ, of all the wrong things which are almost written into our DNA. I believe that same sex attraction is an outworking of that nature, just in the same way my tendency to want to gossip or sleep with someone I find really attractive. I basically have to say, 'those things are what I want to do, but they're not God's best for me....so I will not'.
In other words, you're just like me. You just have a different thing to battle with.
That would be my take on it. And that is why I ask the sex question; there is a difference between being a sinner, and sinning.
So, what do you want? Are you content to live life as a single guy without a relationship? Or do you long for a relationship?
There are a number of things you can look at - google a guy called Peter Ould (in the UK). He calls himself a 'post gay man'. He was in a same sex relationship for a long time and cannot remember a time where he did not identify as gay. However, once he decided to turn to God, he felt he was being called to surrender everything (much like you said) including his perceptions of himself as immovably gay. Something lovely started to happen to him, as he surrendered his life. He is now married with children. I think he probably would still identify as being 'homosexual' in many respects but he has chosen to surrender that and has a really happy and healthy marriage.
Nothing in this life is black and white - except the love of God.
I don't know if any of that helps. It is just a few of my thoughts from having walked some of this journey with someone I love very much.
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Fri Nov 09, 2012 - 13:56:43
Regarding the Old Testament commandments, I think it is important to keep in mind that they were written with the intention of being used as a set of laws for a group of people.
Set homosexuality in that context. When any civilization falls into such practices, negative effects follow. A lower birthrate leads to problems with elder care, because there aren't enough people to support the previous generation as they lose the ability to support themselves. A higher incidence of STD's further decimates the population.
So, like so many rules, it is the effects at the level of mass-use that are problematic. That however, does not excuse individuals from following the rule. After all, if enough individuals take their liberty, we find ourselves with a problem.
While the OT laws (or most of em) may have been abrogated, the cause and effects remain the same. This is probably why homosexuality is also prohibited in the NT.
Changing gears for a moment...
Why is it that most gays and lesbians build their identity around their sex life? To me there appears to be something wrong there. I understand that one's identity has to be built around something, but sex? That's something that ought to be private, not out on display. The only straight people I know that build an identity around sex are people I would consider to be womanizers or sluts. Now, I don't know you, and perhaps you have a monogamous relationship of some sort, so apologies if this misses the mark.
I would agree with Cally, in that it seems that many/most gay men have issues with masculinity. Not really surprising, given the way our culture worships women, often at the expense of men. When women are esteemed higher than men, men will want to be women (or vice versa).
Jarrod
So are you suggesting that men become gay because our culture supposedly worships women?
I doubt myself that there are any more gay men than there were in previous generations when it was men who were worshipped. It was just more hidden then. It has always been with us. Its just more accepted and open now.
: Cally Sun Nov 18, 2012 - 20:34:16
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Fri Nov 09, 2012 - 13:56:43
Why is it that most gays and lesbians build their identity around their sex life? To me there appears to be something wrong there. I understand that one's identity has to be built around something, but sex? That's something that ought to be private, not out on display. The only straight people I know that build an identity around sex are people I would consider to be womanizers or sluts. Now, I don't know you, and perhaps you have a monogamous relationship of some sort, so apologies if this misses the mark.
Very well said. I was trying to say this before--what's up with one's sexual preferences being a central source of identity?
I would agree with Cally, in that it seems that many/most gay men have issues with masculinity. Not really surprising, given the way our culture worships women, often at the expense of men. When women are esteemed higher than men, men will want to be women (or vice versa).
Jarrod
::droppingjaw:: What is this dose of common sense doing here?!
I mean really, a great deal of the time gay men are easily identified by their feminine mannerisms which is EXACTLY why the issue is on the table. I mean, actual homosexual behavior is something we pretty much never see if we aren't looking for it, yet the issue is on the table. It's on the table because it's not quite so subtle!
And we see the problem around here with gender-neutral attitudes, like nothing comes along with male/female beyond genitalia--how many times have I heard arguments to this effect? And yet we see such behavior differences come along with gender confusions--that should make some people stop and rethink that: there IS such a thing as "acting like a woman" and "acting like a man." Many people aren't putting this together: this homosexual acceptance is coming right along with feminism and "progressive" attitudes that say that gender is nothing and has no importance, carrying no innate traits. Both masculinity and femininity are being put down.
But to add to your comment, somehow it feels like a man is supposed to think it's a crime to like himself as a man these days (like it's offensive to many women). But I firmly believe that's the first step to helping gay men: being a man and masculine is great! And so is being a woman and feminine.
There are still many good men around, and you dont have to be all 'rough and tough' to be a strong man. Strength is what is inside, not what always shows on the outside.
It is also worth saying that no one knows fully, how our sexuality is formed. Even established bodies like secular psychiatric associations cannot say conclusively that a person is born that way. Most will say that sexuality is formed through a variety of different factors.
And also, for many, many people, it is simply not 'black and white'. The Kinsey scale tells us that many people have 'grey areas' in ther sexuality and given exposure to harmful things, will find themselves becoming more concrete in their thoughts and desires.
As an example, when I was single, I was once in a very unhealthy relationship with a man I was not married to. I will admit that I was in a bad place in my life and I was attracted to this man, purely on sexual grounds. We had nothing in common but there was something there, that just drew me to him, like a drug. I messed up big time but what brought it to an end for me, was a sudden light being shone on the situation. I realised one day how far I had changed - I had gone from being nervous and saddened after each time I was with him, fearing God's judgement....to a position where I was almost able to justify it biblically. Seriously! In 12 short months, that is how hard my heart became.
I use that as an illustration to say that when you dip your toe into sin, sooner or later, it grabs all of you, it changes you. Best advice ever, simply stay away! And above all else, keep close to God.
: Gracey Sat Nov 24, 2012 - 05:37:16
It is also worth saying that no one knows fully, how our sexuality is formed. Even established bodies like secular psychiatric associations cannot say conclusively that a person is born that way. Most will say that sexuality is formed through a variety of different factors.
And also, for many, many people, it is simply not 'black and white'. The Kinsey scale tells us that many people have 'grey areas' in ther sexuality and given exposure to harmful things, will find themselves becoming more concrete in their thoughts and desires.
As an example, when I was single, I was once in a very unhealthy relationship with a man I was not married to. I will admit that I was in a bad place in my life and I was attracted to this man, purely on sexual grounds. We had nothing in common but there was something there, that just drew me to him, like a drug. I messed up big time but what brought it to an end for me, was a sudden light being shone on the situation. I realised one day how far I had changed - I had gone from being nervous and saddened after each time I was with him, fearing God's judgement....to a position where I was almost able to justify it biblically. Seriously! In 12 short months, that is how hard my heart became.
I use that as an illustration to say that when you dip your toe into sin, sooner or later, it grabs all of you, it changes you. Best advice ever, simply stay away! And above all else, keep close to God.
Gracey thats so true. I have seen people justify the most awful things even to divorcing their spouse because God is apparently 'leading them to be with someone else' ::eek:: Incredible I know, but thats the depth of deception and sin that we can get into.
Gracey thats so true. I have seen people justify the most awful things even to divorcing their spouse because God is apparently 'leading them to be with someone else' ::eek:: Incredible I know, but thats the depth of deception and sin that we can get into.
[/quote]
Yes, I have a family member who says 'God told her' to marry her non-believing husband. She barely knew him and is now paying the price for that - he has beaten her up and he cheats on her. She is now saying that 'God' is telling her to stay.
Really?
The one thing I do know for sure, the heart is deceitful above all things! ::frown::
: Gracey Sat Nov 24, 2012 - 08:36:11
Gracey thats so true. I have seen people justify the most awful things even to divorcing their spouse because God is apparently 'leading them to be with someone else' ::eek:: Incredible I know, but thats the depth of deception and sin that we can get into.
Yes, I have a family member who says 'God told her' to marry her non-believing husband. She barely knew him and is now paying the price for that - he has beaten her up and he cheats on her. She is now saying that 'God' is telling her to stay.
Really?
The one thing I do know for sure, the heart is deceitful above all things! ::frown::
.....................
Yep you are right. After all if someone says 'well God told me to do it', what can we say???.
I know a lady who was sure that God was leading her to divorce her husband(who had done nothing worng) and be with this other man. She was a Christian and the other man was a three times divorced non Christian ::eek:: Now how did she manage to convince herself that this was God and not satan???Amazing isnt it. ::frown:: Needless to say it didnt last, and they broke up 2 months after the divorce was completed.
I think that people will say He said what they want Him to say, but what we do know is that if it is against what the Bible says, we know it isnt God saying it. So if God says to not be unequally yoked he clearly didnt tell her to marry him. He also wouldnt be telling her to stay if he is cheating and beating her up, but maybe she is afraid to be alone, so she stays and justifies it. ::shrug:: Sad. ::frown::
I blame society for the mass influx of gay and lesbianism. I work for the school board and the walls are littered with anti-homophobia campaigns and identity theft posters encouraging whatever your choice of sexuality may be. This is appalling to be pushed on teenagers, but the board believes this is healthy for today's youth.
Hearing testimony from many gay converts, one of their biggest reasons for turning gay was the lack of acceptance they felt from their peers, they were inferior, they were unattractive, they were not like the other kids, etc, etc.
Tough choices for kids, but opening doors such as "encouraging their sexuality choice" is simply giving them the easy way out of coping with the strains of society.
I'm sure we could all give testimony as to the difficulties in growing to adulthood, it wasn't easy but OTOH we weren't encouraged to give up and face the fact that we can't do it, that's the voice of the enemy.
: Alan Sat Nov 24, 2012 - 09:12:15
Hearing testimony from many gay converts, one of their biggest reasons for turning gay was the lack of acceptance they felt from their peers, they were inferior, they were unattractive, they were not like the other kids, etc, etc.
I don't think it's quite as straightforward as that....I don't think anyone wakes up one day and says, 'Right, I'm going to be gay'. Despite huge amounts of liberalism, being gay is still very much a taboo, it's not something that a person would really
want to be.
Having said that, the gay community IS very accepting. It effectively becomes a substitute family for the person who has lost their way and it welcomes them in, wholeheartedly, without any questions asked.
This is why I get so frustrated at churches which rant againt gay people from the pulpit. A gay person would never step foot inside many of our churches, for fear they'd get screamed at. That's not to say that we shouldn't speak about sin or God's best for our lives....but when it turns into a rant, that isn't love, nor the way to reach out to a broken world. :(
: Gracey Sat Nov 24, 2012 - 15:55:45
: Alan Sat Nov 24, 2012 - 09:12:15
Hearing testimony from many gay converts, one of their biggest reasons for turning gay was the lack of acceptance they felt from their peers, they were inferior, they were unattractive, they were not like the other kids, etc, etc.
I don't think it's quite as straightforward as that....I don't think anyone wakes up one day and says, 'Right, I'm going to be gay'. Despite huge amounts of liberalism, being gay is still very much a taboo, it's not something that a person would really want to be.
Having said that, the gay community IS very accepting. It effectively becomes a substitute family for the person who has lost their way and it welcomes them in, wholeheartedly, without any questions asked.
This is why I get so frustrated at churches which rant againt gay people from the pulpit. A gay person would never step foot inside many of our churches, for fear they'd get screamed at. That's not to say that we shouldn't speak about sin or God's best for our lives....but when it turns into a rant, that isn't love, nor the way to reach out to a broken world. :(
I agree. My pastor says that he would welcome any gay person in our church who is seeking God. After all once they come to God, The Holy Spirit can begin His work in them. He isnt saying that he condones what they do, but that everyone needs Jesus and His healing power. Its the old saying of loving the sinner but hating the sin.
: chosenone Sat Nov 24, 2012 - 16:09:10
I agree. My pastor says that he would welcome any gay person in our church who is seeking God. After all once they come to God, The Holy Spirit can begin His work in them. He isnt saying that he condones what they do, but that everyone needs Jesus and His healing power. Its the old saying of loving the sinner but hating the sin.
Exactly! A friend's church did that - they were a city-based church and a gay couple wandered in one Sunday. They received an amazingly warm welcome and were told this could be their home if they wanted it to be. Once they'd shown they were planning on coming back, the pastor had a coffee with them and explained what the church taught on same sex relationships, but made it clear they would always be welcome.
Interestingly, as time went on, one of the guys got chatting to me and he said that they were now living celibate, as they didn't know why, but it just 'felt wrong' to be that way with each other. It is such a lovely journey to watch - no one ranted or screamed verses from Leviticus at them. Just loved them like they love everyone else....and allowed the Holy Spirit to do what only He can do.
Yep, we also see gays at our Church and make effort to let them know that they are very welcome and that God loves us all.
Of course there is no screening process when entering the Church, these things are usually revealed from their own free will or from a friend that may have led them to the Church.
: Gracey Sat Nov 24, 2012 - 16:47:15
: chosenone Sat Nov 24, 2012 - 16:09:10
I agree. My pastor says that he would welcome any gay person in our church who is seeking God. After all once they come to God, The Holy Spirit can begin His work in them. He isnt saying that he condones what they do, but that everyone needs Jesus and His healing power. Its the old saying of loving the sinner but hating the sin.
Exactly! A friend's church did that - they were a city-based church and a gay couple wandered in one Sunday. They received an amazingly warm welcome and were told this could be their home if they wanted it to be. Once they'd shown they were planning on coming back, the pastor had a coffee with them and explained what the church taught on same sex relationships, but made it clear they would always be welcome.
Interestingly, as time went on, one of the guys got chatting to me and he said that they were now living celibate, as they didn't know why, but it just 'felt wrong' to be that way with each other. It is such a lovely journey to watch - no one ranted or screamed verses from Leviticus at them. Just loved them like they love everyone else....and allowed the Holy Spirit to do what only He can do.
YAY I love that. He is clearly a man of God. Can you imagine if they had been preached at with hell fire and damnation when they started going to that church? They would never have returned. WE dont have to do the Holy Spirits job, He is quite capable of that.
I have posted this story here before but its bears repeating. A true story of a gay couple who became Christians. They were on fire for God, and a few months after coverting, they were praying together once evening when they were both zapped by the power of the Holy Spirit. The next morning they both KNEW that they needed to seperate, which they did. God is in control. ::smile::
: chosenone Sat Nov 24, 2012 - 04:58:31
: Cally Sun Nov 18, 2012 - 20:34:16
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Fri Nov 09, 2012 - 13:56:43
Why is it that most gays and lesbians build their identity around their sex life? To me there appears to be something wrong there. I understand that one's identity has to be built around something, but sex? That's something that ought to be private, not out on display. The only straight people I know that build an identity around sex are people I would consider to be womanizers or sluts. Now, I don't know you, and perhaps you have a monogamous relationship of some sort, so apologies if this misses the mark.
Very well said. I was trying to say this before--what's up with one's sexual preferences being a central source of identity?
I would agree with Cally, in that it seems that many/most gay men have issues with masculinity. Not really surprising, given the way our culture worships women, often at the expense of men. When women are esteemed higher than men, men will want to be women (or vice versa).
Jarrod
::droppingjaw:: What is this dose of common sense doing here?!
I mean really, a great deal of the time gay men are easily identified by their feminine mannerisms which is EXACTLY why the issue is on the table. I mean, actual homosexual behavior is something we pretty much never see if we aren't looking for it, yet the issue is on the table. It's on the table because it's not quite so subtle!
And we see the problem around here with gender-neutral attitudes, like nothing comes along with male/female beyond genitalia--how many times have I heard arguments to this effect? And yet we see such behavior differences come along with gender confusions--that should make some people stop and rethink that: there IS such a thing as "acting like a woman" and "acting like a man." Many people aren't putting this together: this homosexual acceptance is coming right along with feminism and "progressive" attitudes that say that gender is nothing and has no importance, carrying no innate traits. Both masculinity and femininity are being put down.
But to add to your comment, somehow it feels like a man is supposed to think it's a crime to like himself as a man these days (like it's offensive to many women). But I firmly believe that's the first step to helping gay men: being a man and masculine is great! And so is being a woman and feminine.
There are still many good men around, and you dont have to be all 'rough and tough' to be a strong man. Strength is what is inside, not what always shows on the outside.
I don't get where the "there are still many good men around" comment came from. I didn't say anything to suggest that there was a shortage of good men.
I believe that traditional culture suffered from some really lousy dichotomies with masculinity/femininity which has caused us a ton of problems.
For example, I'm a professional violinist--I'm accustomed to being highly praised for it ("so beautiful this made me cry")--and I can bench press more than my body weight . . . still working on that though, school for programming takes a rearranging of schedule. King David was both rough and tough as a fierce warrior, and was also a great musician who could remove an evil spirit with his music, whereas classic culture has GARBAGE like Clint Eastwood "show no weakness" business. Consequently I think our culture (at least the USA) has had lousy paradigms of male/female to begin with--there are some real men who can't see themselves as allegedly "masculine" figures because of the absurdity of masculine paradigms, and simultaneously because of the way masculinity has been demonized anyway (in men, really, while masculinity in women is regarded like great women's lib fodder--especially as such women are "defeating" masculine men in some way or another).
Consequently, the alternative is abandoning masculinity and that's what happens in many cases.
That's one of many reasons why masculinity and femininity both need to be promoted.
: Cally Mon Nov 26, 2012 - 22:49:41
: chosenone Sat Nov 24, 2012 - 04:58:31
: Cally Sun Nov 18, 2012 - 20:34:16
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Fri Nov 09, 2012 - 13:56:43
Why is it that most gays and lesbians build their identity around their sex life? To me there appears to be something wrong there. I understand that one's identity has to be built around something, but sex? That's something that ought to be private, not out on display. The only straight people I know that build an identity around sex are people I would consider to be womanizers or sluts. Now, I don't know you, and perhaps you have a monogamous relationship of some sort, so apologies if this misses the mark.
Very well said. I was trying to say this before--what's up with one's sexual preferences being a central source of identity?
I would agree with Cally, in that it seems that many/most gay men have issues with masculinity. Not really surprising, given the way our culture worships women, often at the expense of men. When women are esteemed higher than men, men will want to be women (or vice versa).
Jarrod
::droppingjaw:: What is this dose of common sense doing here?!
I mean really, a great deal of the time gay men are easily identified by their feminine mannerisms which is EXACTLY why the issue is on the table. I mean, actual homosexual behavior is something we pretty much never see if we aren't looking for it, yet the issue is on the table. It's on the table because it's not quite so subtle!
And we see the problem around here with gender-neutral attitudes, like nothing comes along with male/female beyond genitalia--how many times have I heard arguments to this effect? And yet we see such behavior differences come along with gender confusions--that should make some people stop and rethink that: there IS such a thing as "acting like a woman" and "acting like a man." Many people aren't putting this together: this homosexual acceptance is coming right along with feminism and "progressive" attitudes that say that gender is nothing and has no importance, carrying no innate traits. Both masculinity and femininity are being put down.
But to add to your comment, somehow it feels like a man is supposed to think it's a crime to like himself as a man these days (like it's offensive to many women). But I firmly believe that's the first step to helping gay men: being a man and masculine is great! And so is being a woman and feminine.
There are still many good men around, and you dont have to be all 'rough and tough' to be a strong man. Strength is what is inside, not what always shows on the outside.
I don't get where the "there are still many good men around" comment came from. I didn't say anything to suggest that there was a shortage of good men.
I believe that traditional culture suffered from some really lousy dichotomies with masculinity/femininity which has caused us a ton of problems.
For example, I'm a professional violinist--I'm accustomed to being highly praised for it ("so beautiful this made me cry")--and I can bench press more than my body weight . . . still working on that though, school for programming takes a rearranging of schedule. King David was both rough and tough as a fierce warrior, and was also a great musician who could remove an evil spirit with his music, whereas classic culture has GARBAGE like Clint Eastwood "show no weakness" business. Consequently I think our culture (at least the USA) has had lousy paradigms of male/female to begin with--there are some real men who can't see themselves as allegedly "masculine" figures because of the absurdity of masculine paradigms, and simultaneously because of the way masculinity has been demonized anyway (in men, really, while masculinity in women is regarded like great women's lib fodder--especially as such women are "defeating" masculine men in some way or another).
Consequently, the alternative is abandoning masculinity and that's what happens in many cases.
That's one of many reasons why masculinity and femininity both need to be promoted.
I agree totally. I read an interesting article the other day about how ideas of masculinity and femininity had in some cases completely reversed through the years. I think most of it is just a cultural thing, at least as far as what is considered masculine and feminine. I really hate to see men demonized in ads and in tv/movies. If men were as disdainful of women in the media as women are of men, women's groups would have a hissy fit and rightfully so.
: chosenone Sat Nov 24, 2012 - 04:55:28
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Fri Nov 09, 2012 - 13:56:43
Regarding the Old Testament commandments, I think it is important to keep in mind that they were written with the intention of being used as a set of laws for a group of people.
Set homosexuality in that context. When any civilization falls into such practices, negative effects follow. A lower birthrate leads to problems with elder care, because there aren't enough people to support the previous generation as they lose the ability to support themselves. A higher incidence of STD's further decimates the population.
So, like so many rules, it is the effects at the level of mass-use that are problematic. That however, does not excuse individuals from following the rule. After all, if enough individuals take their liberty, we find ourselves with a problem.
While the OT laws (or most of em) may have been abrogated, the cause and effects remain the same. This is probably why homosexuality is also prohibited in the NT.
Changing gears for a moment...
Why is it that most gays and lesbians build their identity around their sex life? To me there appears to be something wrong there. I understand that one's identity has to be built around something, but sex? That's something that ought to be private, not out on display. The only straight people I know that build an identity around sex are people I would consider to be womanizers or sluts. Now, I don't know you, and perhaps you have a monogamous relationship of some sort, so apologies if this misses the mark.
I would agree with Cally, in that it seems that many/most gay men have issues with masculinity. Not really surprising, given the way our culture worships women, often at the expense of men. When women are esteemed higher than men, men will want to be women (or vice versa).
Jarrod
So are you suggesting that men become gay because our culture supposedly worships women?
I doubt myself that there are any more gay men than there were in previous generations when it was men who were worshipped. It was just more hidden then. It has always been with us. Its just more accepted and open now.
Men were treated like incorruptible angels whose every misdeed could be blamed on some woman? Actually, as I understand "previous generations" men were still to consider themselves obligated to women in ways that, even today, despite artificial actions of culture causing them to be (at least) nearly as powerful in the workforce, men are
STILL often treated like they're supposed to be providers and protectors of infinitely more precious women.
Sorry, but I think a lot of lady perks were taken for granted in previous generations.
: Cally Mon Nov 26, 2012 - 23:05:03
: chosenone Sat Nov 24, 2012 - 04:55:28
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Fri Nov 09, 2012 - 13:56:43
Regarding the Old Testament commandments, I think it is important to keep in mind that they were written with the intention of being used as a set of laws for a group of people.
Set homosexuality in that context. When any civilization falls into such practices, negative effects follow. A lower birthrate leads to problems with elder care, because there aren't enough people to support the previous generation as they lose the ability to support themselves. A higher incidence of STD's further decimates the population.
So, like so many rules, it is the effects at the level of mass-use that are problematic. That however, does not excuse individuals from following the rule. After all, if enough individuals take their liberty, we find ourselves with a problem.
While the OT laws (or most of em) may have been abrogated, the cause and effects remain the same. This is probably why homosexuality is also prohibited in the NT.
Changing gears for a moment...
Why is it that most gays and lesbians build their identity around their sex life? To me there appears to be something wrong there. I understand that one's identity has to be built around something, but sex? That's something that ought to be private, not out on display. The only straight people I know that build an identity around sex are people I would consider to be womanizers or sluts. Now, I don't know you, and perhaps you have a monogamous relationship of some sort, so apologies if this misses the mark.
I would agree with Cally, in that it seems that many/most gay men have issues with masculinity. Not really surprising, given the way our culture worships women, often at the expense of men. When women are esteemed higher than men, men will want to be women (or vice versa).
Jarrod
So are you suggesting that men become gay because our culture supposedly worships women?
I doubt myself that there are any more gay men than there were in previous generations when it was men who were worshipped. It was just more hidden then. It has always been with us. Its just more accepted and open now.
Men were treated like incorruptible angels whose every misdeed could be blamed on some woman? Actually, as I understand "previous generations" men were still to consider themselves obligated to women in ways that, even today, despite artificial actions of culture causing them to be (at least) nearly as powerful in the workforce, men are STILL often treated like they're supposed to be providers and protectors of infinitely more precious women.
Sorry, but I think a lot of lady perks were taken for granted in previous generations.
At least nearly as powerful in the workforce? Ok, sure. And are you seriously considering no voting rights and no property rights as 'lady perks'?
: Makewecasa Mon Nov 26, 2012 - 23:19:48
At least nearly as powerful in the workforce? Ok, sure. And are you seriously considering no voting rights and no property rights as 'lady perks'?
Maybe my language was confusing. Ever heard phrases like "women and children first"? There's a term thrown around in the men's rights movement: "Male disposability," like a man's value is measured only on what he provides.
And what I'm saying is, I'm still hearing a lot of people TODAY treating a man like he has to "be a man" and take the manly role as provider and protector despite the fact that TODAY women have (again, at least) nearly as much power to provide for themselves as men do: equality with all the old-school lady perks. It's not gonna fly for much longer.
Well I'm no doubt going to catch flak for this but I think the problem is more with the women taking over the male role than it is that the male role is wrong. I'm not talking about equality in the workplace or about rights of any kind. But I do believe that God made us different and that He intended men to take a protective role physically and women to take more of an emotional protector role. That's not unequal, it's just different. I think God made us two halves of a whole, not two clones of each other. ::peeking:: Please don't shoot me. I said it's my opinion. (Isn't there an icon for ducking? I thought I had seen one but couldn't find it.)
: Makewecasa Mon Nov 26, 2012 - 23:36:48
Well I'm no doubt going to catch flak for this but I think the problem is more with the women taking over the male role than it is that the male role is wrong. I'm not talking about equality in the workplace or about rights of any kind. But I do believe that God made us different and that He intended men to take a protective role physically and women to take more of an emotional protector role. That's not unequal, it's just different. I think God made us two halves of a whole, not two clones of each other. ::peeking:: Please don't shoot me. I said it's my opinion. (Isn't there an icon for ducking? I thought I had seen one but couldn't find it.)
A 100% anti-feminist thinks that there's such a thing as a man's duty and a woman's duty (duties to each other). Preaching that men have a duty that INCLUDES towing the line to let women off the hook for any duties in return is beyond unacceptable--those are called "feminists."
I don't know very many women who believe men have 'duties' and they should have none. I'm sorry if that's been your experience but lumping us all into the same category won't help. I'm not arguing this in this post anymore though. I think we have gotten far afield of the topic.
: Makewecasa Mon Nov 26, 2012 - 23:53:47
I don't know very many women who believe men have 'duties' and they should have none. I'm sorry if that's been your experience but lumping us all into the same category won't help. I'm not arguing this in this post anymore though. I think we have gotten far afield of the topic.
I agree, all women are different just as all men are. We tend to think that all women or all men are like the few that we may have had bad experiences with. Its a good job that I didnt think that way, as after my experinces with the previous men in my life, I would have been a man hating feminist by now and would never have got married again. As it is I am very happily married to a great guy and know many other good men including my lovely adult son and my brother.
: Makewecasa Mon Nov 26, 2012 - 23:53:47
I don't know very many women who believe men have 'duties' and they should have none. I'm sorry if that's been your experience but lumping us all into the same category won't help. I'm not arguing this in this post anymore though. I think we have gotten far afield of the topic.
There is no way you could claim that I did that.
: Cally Mon Nov 26, 2012 - 23:23:55
: Makewecasa Mon Nov 26, 2012 - 23:19:48
At least nearly as powerful in the workforce? Ok, sure. And are you seriously considering no voting rights and no property rights as 'lady perks'?
Maybe my language was confusing. Ever heard phrases like "women and children first"? There's a term thrown around in the men's rights movement: "Male disposability," like a man's value is measured only on what he provides.
And what I'm saying is, I'm still hearing a lot of people TODAY treating a man like he has to "be a man" and take the manly role as provider and protector despite the fact that TODAY women have (again, at least) nearly as much power to provide for themselves as men do: equality with all the old-school lady perks. It's not gonna fly for much longer.
Nearly all the women that I know work (or have worked and are now retired). More and more women work now so not sure where you are coming from with this. My husband likes to be the provider, and feels that he should be. Its not done as a 'duty' or a 'burden' but as his role as the husband.
The Bible does seem to say that the mans role is as provider and protector, and the womans role is the nurturer, and the one who runs the home and looks after the children.
: chosenone Tue Nov 27, 2012 - 00:35:06
: Cally Mon Nov 26, 2012 - 23:23:55
: Makewecasa Mon Nov 26, 2012 - 23:19:48
At least nearly as powerful in the workforce? Ok, sure. And are you seriously considering no voting rights and no property rights as 'lady perks'?
Maybe my language was confusing. Ever heard phrases like "women and children first"? There's a term thrown around in the men's rights movement: "Male disposability," like a man's value is measured only on what he provides.
And what I'm saying is, I'm still hearing a lot of people TODAY treating a man like he has to "be a man" and take the manly role as provider and protector despite the fact that TODAY women have (again, at least) nearly as much power to provide for themselves as men do: equality with all the old-school lady perks. It's not gonna fly for much longer.
Nearly all the women that I know work (or have worked and are now retired). More and more women work now so not sure where you are coming from with this. My husband likes to be the provider, and feels that he should be. Its not done as a 'duty' or a 'burden' but as his role as the husband.
The Bible does seem to say that the mans role is as provider and protector, and the womans role is the nurturer, and the one who runs the home and looks after the children.
Good, and that's more of the traditional attitude toward men and women and a great deal less of so-called pushes for "equality." If you agree with that, then you made my original point: men traditionally provide for and protect women even in those dreaded "back thens" that the modern world says about how the world was just all about worshiping men while women get altogether shafted.
What I'm saying is, I believe that any woman who pushes for "equality" (which I've heard two on this thread flip-flop on this) had sure better be ready to kiss goodbye the benefits of men being a provider and protector. Many men's rights activists feel like the old days were a lousy deal for men, not women, because of that duty--and that's an ugly side effect of men getting taken for granted I'm afraid. I advocate different roles, but not one without the other.
Back to the OP, I would say that sometimes, sadly, churches or church leaders use Biblical language to hidge their rampant homophobia.
Homophobia is, of course, not preaching what the Bible says (as some would like to define it) but actual hatred toward gay people. I have heard some shocking things from some pulpits. I once heard a preacher talk about gay marriage and he said something along the lines of, 'Do you KNOW what those people do to each other in their bedrooms? They're DISGUSTING...'
That wasn't teaching about God's love for a broken creation and how He longs to be in a relationship with anyone, that was just cloaking his distaste for gay people into so called Biblical language. To me, those kinds of viewpoints are incredibly unhelpful, because it firstly gives the impression that gay people are outside of the church. In fact, there are many people who struggle with same sex attraction who are IN the church but one thing is for sure, they would never dare admit it, certainly not when such vitriol is preached from the pulpit.
I am not suggesting that we don't call sin, 'sin' or avoid the issue. But I think we need to approach it from the point of view that all people are sinners, we're all broken...and ultimately, God wants His absolute best for us all.
"Gay person"~There is nothing "Gay" about man with man and woman with woman working that which is unseemly! Romans 1:24-29 makes it very plain that such people have been giving a reprobate mind~God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient, and those are not my words, but God's own words. Again, read Romans 1:24-29, and if one can read those verses and still believe that Sodomy is acceptable with God, then that man is a man giving over to the same reprobate mind.
Gay??? Are you kidding me! What is gay about their unnatural lifestyle? It is an abomination in God's holy sight, and should also be so in our eyes. Is there forgiveness for such wickedness? Of course, and I have first hand witness such a person repenting of such wickedness, even though it is rare. Only by the mercy of God Almighty can such people change from such unnatural burning in their hearts~but with God, all things are possible. But please, do not call their unnatural lusting~GAY, for it is anything but that. Call it what it is: abomination that God will make desolate in His Day; that great day of his wrath.
Gay is a term defining same sex attraction (of men) that has been accepted by society. We're probably all to the knowledge that the english reference for "gay" is one of happy, merry, bright, cheerful, etc. I don't feel rebuking societies terminology of a human characteristic is helpful in any way, nor do I feel using the term "gay" as breaking any rules of Christianity, we can respectfully address them and continue to remind them that God loves them but he detests the sin.
: Red Baker Sat Dec 22, 2012 - 07:07:26
"Gay person"~There is nothing "Gay" about man with man and woman with woman working that which is unseemly! Romans 1:24-29 makes it very plain that such people have been giving a reprobate mind~God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient, and those are not my words, but God's own words. Again, read Romans 1:24-29, and if one can read those verses and still believe that Sodomy is acceptable with God, then that man is a man giving over to the same reprobate mind.
Before you quote Romans, I think you need to look a little further back in that chapter; "From verse 22: Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal human beings and birds and animals and reptiles."
God turned them over to their desires AFTER they turned their backs on Him. So, to simply categorise ALL people of same sex orientation as an 'abomination' is unBiblical. The act IS unBiblical, but there are THOUSANDS of men and women (if not millions) across the world, who earnestly desire a closer walk with Jesus, and who struggle with SSA.
How do I know? Because I spent a good few years with a man just like this. He suffered extreme abuse as a child and through no fault of his own, developed SSA in his puberty years. He hid it simply because there was no one he could talk to.
His church offered no solutions, just merely churned out extreme judgement on the 'sodomites'. How was he supposed to go to his pastor to ask for help, if he thought he'd just be screamed at?
Instead, he kept it as a quiet little secret, where it festered and eventually, found a life when someone more established in that world than him, made a play for him. Sure, he had a choice not to act, but he was deeply conflicted...he couldn't go to his church leaders and yet he couldn't deny this was 'there'.
He went out for non-specific prayer and he fasted and he prayed and he asked for forgiveness, but he could never quite shake it off. What he actually needed was counselling and therapy and mature Christian accountability in his life. None of which he could access because he believed he would simply be condemned. And if you know anything about sexual addiction - the triggers often are, low feelings and depression and anxiety. The sexual release becomes a 'temporary fix' for an aching problem.
And so, you, or anyone else, thundering out words like 'reprobate' and 'sodomy' from here or any kind of pulpit, serves no purpose, other than to push this even further into the darkness.
Undoubtedly, there are many who HAVE turned away from God and so therefore God has given them over to their desires. But equally, there are many more who are confused and simply have nowhere to turn, because they believe they are unforgiveable.
It is also not just a case of 'getting forgiveness' and that's, they're now straight. Many believe that our orientation is formed through a variety of different factors, sometimes it's the lack of something, sometimes it's too much of something (inappropriate) but for whatever reason, many people who struggle this way can't just simply, 'Ok, I'm now attracted to the opposite sex'. For many, it's a lifelong choice of celibacy.
The point is, if the church simply screams at sinners, how can you ever epxect them to step forward from the shadows, to ask for help?
: Gracey Sat Dec 22, 2012 - 06:32:25
Back to the OP, I would say that sometimes, sadly, churches or church leaders use Biblical language to hidge their rampant homophobia.
Homophobia is, of course, not preaching what the Bible says (as some would like to define it) but actual hatred toward gay people. I have heard some shocking things from some pulpits. I once heard a preacher talk about gay marriage and he said something along the lines of, 'Do you KNOW what those people do to each other in their bedrooms? They're DISGUSTING...'
Nothing wrong with that. It is disgusting.
That wasn't teaching about God's love for a broken creation and how He longs to be in a relationship with anyone, that was just cloaking his distaste for gay people into so called Biblical language.
He was bringing people into reality, that the homosexual act is a sin, and not to be mitigated by the cover story that these people love each other.
To me, those kinds of viewpoints are incredibly unhelpful, because it firstly gives the impression that gay people are outside of the church.
They ARE outside of the Church.
In fact, there are many people who struggle with same sex attraction who are IN the church but one thing is for sure, they would never dare admit it, certainly not when such vitriol is preached from the pulpit.
In a good church, there is safety in declaring one's battles, while at the same time its leadership is preaching the truth about it from the pulpit.
I am not suggesting that we don't call sin, 'sin' or avoid the issue. But I think we need to approach it from the point of view that all people are sinners, we're all broken...and ultimately, God wants His absolute best for us all.
Christians are not sinners and are no longer broken, and are qualifed by Christ to speak the truth in love to those who are confused and caught up in the entanglement of sin, and in particular the sin of homosexuality, which affects a person's entire self-image and identity.
In a good church, there is safety in declaring one's battles, while at the same time its leadership is preaching the truth about it from the pulpit.
True! But then pastors need to preach both messages. They need to talk about sin, but they need to make it clear that if anyone is struggling with anything, that the church is very much a 'safe space' to get help. I think too often, it's too much judgement, and very little grace. OR, it's all fluffy and light and love, and no genuine instruction on what the Bible teaches. Both are wrong.
Christians are not sinners and are no longer broken, and are qualifed by Christ to speak the truth in love to those who are confused and caught up in the entanglement of sin, and in particular the sin of homosexuality, which affects a person's entire self-image and identity.
I'm not sure how I feel about that. I think we will always remain 'broken' to a certain extent, just because we are human. I am also of the view that we are called to speak into people's lives when they give us permission to do so. So, for example, I'd not be the sort of person who'd be protesting at 'Gay pride' or anything like that. I'm of the view that the Bible is the Word of God, but its rules are for best living for believers. If you speak its words to those who don't subscribe to it, it makes no sense to them....and only sounds like judgement. My view is that our job is to win people to Christ, first and foremost...and I have seen it time and time again, once the love of Jesus and the conviction of the Holy Spirit consumes their hearts, change just happens. It cannot,
not happen.
It's a truly beautiful thing to see. ::smile::
Greetings Gracey,
I will take time this afternoon to answer some of your concerns. RB
: Red Baker Sat Dec 22, 2012 - 10:55:23
Greetings Gracey,
I will take time this afternoon to answer some of your concerns. RB
Thank you Red. I apologise if my response sounded angry - I am very passionate about this subject. I couldn't even begin to describe to you, the heartache and pain, my (now) ex's SSA, has caused to me and my family.
God HAS been faithful though, giving peace in the times which were incredibly low. Even now, He is just there.
That is all I need. ::smile::
: Lively Stone Sat Dec 22, 2012 - 10:03:10
To me, those kinds of viewpoints are incredibly unhelpful, because it firstly gives the impression that gay people are outside of the church.
They ARE outside of the Church.In fact, there are many people who struggle with same sex attraction who are IN the church but one thing is for sure, they would never dare admit it, certainly not when such vitriol is preached from the pulpit.
In a good church, there is safety in declaring one's battles, while at the same time its leadership is preaching the truth about it from the pulpit.
So lively, you agree with a former pastor of mine who said that all homosexuals should be lined up and shot (summarily executed) and that judgement begins at the House of God?
: DaveW Mon Dec 24, 2012 - 10:54:48
: Lively Stone Sat Dec 22, 2012 - 10:03:10
To me, those kinds of viewpoints are incredibly unhelpful, because it firstly gives the impression that gay people are outside of the church.
They ARE outside of the Church.In fact, there are many people who struggle with same sex attraction who are IN the church but one thing is for sure, they would never dare admit it, certainly not when such vitriol is preached from the pulpit.
In a good church, there is safety in declaring one's battles, while at the same time its leadership is preaching the truth about it from the pulpit.
So lively, you agree with a former pastor of mine who said that all homosexuals should be lined up and shot (summarily executed) and that judgement begins at the House of God?
That is a sick question. I will let you ponder its intent.
: Lively Stone Sat Dec 22, 2012 - 10:03:10
Christians are not sinners and are no longer broken, and are qualified by Christ to speak the truth in love to those who are confused and caught up in the entanglement of sin, and in particular the sin of homosexuality, which affects a person's entire self-image and identity.
Perhaps that is true of an adult trained and discipled believer but most Christians have never been properly discipled and consequently are still babes in their walk. They still have lots of sin issues. [sin being ANYTHING that misses the mark or falls short of God's glory] After being a believer for 50 years there are still sins I struggle with. Not as many as 30 years ago nor even 10 years ago but some still are being worked on. I still have wounds of extreme physical abuse as a child. While SSA was never an issue for me, the constant attitude from my dad told me I was a mistake that should not exist and that he (as God's representative to the family) hates me. The main reason I never committed suicide is that I realized it would call too much attention to ME (and that was to be avoided at all costs).
So either you are saying that I am NOT a christian (messianic) because of these things or your statement needs some work.
: DaveW Mon Dec 24, 2012 - 11:03:29
: Lively Stone Sat Dec 22, 2012 - 10:03:10
Christians are not sinners and are no longer broken, and are qualified by Christ to speak the truth in love to those who are confused and caught up in the entanglement of sin, and in particular the sin of homosexuality, which affects a person's entire self-image and identity.
Perhaps that is true of an adult trained and discipled believer but most Christians have never been properly discipled and consequently are still babes in their walk. They still have lots of sin issues. [sin being ANYTHING that misses the mark or falls short of God's glory] After being a believer for 50 years there are still sins I struggle with. Not as many as 30 years ago nor even 10 years ago but some still are being worked on. I still have wounds of extreme physical abuse as a child. While SSA was never an issue for me, the constant attitude from my dad told me I was a mistake that should not exist and that he (as God's representative to the family) hates me. The main reason I never committed suicide is that I realized it would call too much attention to ME (and that was to be avoided at all costs).
I can see where you can misunderstand what I have said. it was too pat. We still deal with brokenness, I assure you, and that is true of us all, as we are in constant struggle with our flesh. I also have memories that affect my present, and a measure of brokenness that I am working through with the Lord. However, spiritually speaking we have been blessed with all that God has to offer in our spirits We spend our lives as believers continually appropriating what God has for us into our lives---that is all part of our consecration and sanctification and it continues until we walk straight into His literal presence.
So either you are saying that I am NOT a christian (messianic) because of these things or your statement needs some work.
Where on earth would you get that idea?
Well first off you have to decide what you value more.Do you value your sexual desires or do you value God's will.The problem is what God desires and what you want are at odds ,but people are misguiding into thinking they know whats best for them selves.Don't let Satan try to fool yourself into making an excuse that homosexuality is anything but sin.
Romans 3:4
God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
Proverbs 14:12
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
Now having the thoughts in your head is not Sin,but what you do with them could be.Once you acknowledge that the act of homosexuality is a sin and against God's will the next thing to do is to pray,i recommend fasting as well.I believe once youv'e allowed satan enough hold on you it requires much prayer and fasting
19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.
The way Satan works is he always starts off as a innocent thought that seeks to be pondered on.The problem is when you dwell on Satans thoughts he immediately starts to bring you into bondage.The longer you dwell on it the stronger hold it has on you till eventually that thought requires action.Once action comes, sin is committed.If pursued to its full extent if you allow it, temptation will take you to its predictable limit which is death.
James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
There is no excuse you can make to justify it,but don't feel hopeless for having the desire but overcome it by pursuing a more gratifying desire which is Gods will(for in his will you will find peace of mind)
The things ive done to help me overcome sin is to focus on 3 things.
1st that your true desire is the same as Gods,because if you desire the lust more than Gods will ,it will destroy you.
Matthew 6:24
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
2ndis prayer and fasting with lots of hope till God removes that desire you've allowed to take refuge in your mind.Hope is very important alongside patience,because it may take years upon years before it is removed.without patience and hope you will eventually give in to temptation because it appears easier.Just remember we are called to suffer as followers of Christ when we put off the old man and put on the new.
Ephesians 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
We are called to be soldiers for Christ.To follow Christ is to deny the former lusts for this world,which isn't easy.
Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
3rdis to not give Satans temptation the audience of your minds focus.When temptation comes cast it down immediately.The longer you give it your attention the more of a foothold it will get into establishing its dominion over you and draw you into slavery to it.
2 Corinthians 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
5 ;Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ
I recommend finding a verse thats important to you,that when satans temptation comes you can immediately goto Gods word to repel it.
always remember regardless off the pressure that in the end Gods word is always the final truth.
Romans 3:4
God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
: Lively Stone Mon Dec 24, 2012 - 11:16:47
So either you are saying that I am NOT a christian (messianic) because of these things or your statement needs some work.
Where on earth would you get that idea?
From this:
Christians are not sinners and are no longer broken
To me that reads that if you still struggle with sin or brokenness you are not a Christian. Period.
But you answered me that the statement was too pat.
Robert - you made the following statement:
Now having the thoughts in your head is not Sin
Since sin is
anything that misses the mark or falls short of God's glory, how can you say that? Is there anything about a same sex attraction (whether acted on or not) that hits the center of the target of God's will or brings Him glory?
: DaveW Mon Dec 24, 2012 - 13:42:25
Robert - you made the following statement:
Now having the thoughts in your head is not Sin
Since sin is anything that misses the mark or falls short of God's glory, how can you say that? Is there anything about a same sex attraction (whether acted on or not) that hits the center of the target of God's will or brings Him glory?
So your saying you sin every time satan tempts you ,just by the thought?
If that was true than Christ sinned for he was tempted by Satan.
Temptation (which can be thoughts of lust,rage ect) are not Sin its how you respond to it that can be sin.You can respond by satisfying your carnal lusts in the flesh or you can follow Gods word through the spirit.
Ephesians 4:26
Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27 Neither give place to the devil.
Again,why would the Bible ask are you angry? and then say sin not, for by your reasoning the mere thought of anger is a Sin.The next verse is important aswell, for it advises the danger of dwelling on those thoughts(aka giving it a place)Thats why i recommended to him to cast the thought down immediately.
Even the lords prayer makes a distinction between the 2
Luke 11:4 And
forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And
lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.This is a great verse describing the process of sin
James 1:14 But
every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and
sin, when it is
finished,
bringeth forth death.
I am not saying that temptation is sin. But a same-sex attraction is not just a temptation. it is a state of existence, just like my hetro sexual orientation is a state of existence.
Me being tempted by a cute woman somewhere is just that - temptation. The orientation is correct and godly but the specific person (not my wife) would be erroneous.
Similarly the guy who is attracted to another guy - being tempted to be with some specific guy is just that: temptation and not sinful unless acted on. But the orientation itself is not godly or right. The orientation is sinful in and of itself.
: Gracey Sat Dec 22, 2012 - 12:08:32
: Red Baker Sat Dec 22, 2012 - 10:55:23
Greetings Gracey,
I will take time this afternoon to answer some of your concerns. RB
Thank you Red. I apologise if my response sounded angry - I am very passionate about this subject. I couldn't even begin to describe to you, the heartache and pain, my (now) ex's SSA, has caused to me and my family.
God HAS been faithful though, giving peace in the times which were incredibly low. Even now, He is just there.
That is all I need. ::smile::
Greetings Gracey,
No need to apologize, I fully understand your passionate spirit. Your point was well taken, in that, I should had slow down, and thought through my thoughts more than I did. That being said: I still would never refer to them as Gays, for reasons already given. God who we both believe in and serve, calls them
Sodomites, and so should we, we are not more than and wise than our heavenly Father.
Sister, there are others sins that men commit that is worst than Sodomy, base upon the word of God~
See Luke 10:10-15....And in the day of Judgment, it will be
more tolerable for Sodom than for certain other men, who have rejected the word of God, from those who have the true gospel of peace, yet they chose to serve sin, over God's word from his true servants.
I have personally preached in a funeral of a man who lived the life of Sodomy~one of my brothers-in-law. He died of AIDS. Very sad indeed. I first refuse to preached his funeral, because my dear mother-in law wanted me to say certain things, which my conscience would not allow me to say, so I ask her to find someone else, who would be happy to do it for a certain fee, (sure enough, a man from the First Baptist church show up to do it) yet, my mother-in law, said: "I rather you do, for they all say thing, for a little money"~ (she was an unbeliever)she said please do so and say what you will. Rory died on Christmas day 1988, which made it very easy for me. I said very little about Rory, other than we all love him, but did say that the world will celebrate the birth of Jesus, but he is much more than what most know him to be~he is a MIGHTY KING, sitting on a Throne, highly exalted at God's right hand according to Acts 2:33, and will come back to judge the world in righteousness at the last day. There were several sodomites there, one which was dress as a women! It was good to have the opportunity to honor my brother-in law and mother -in law who just died three months ago.
In Closing, about ten hours before Rory died, he said to my wife alone: Sherry, I want to be saved, and she said you need to speak with Red. I went into to Rory's room and said, Rory, Sherry said you wanted to speak with me, and he said: I want to be saved, because I know that I am going to die. Here are the words that I said to him;
Rory, can I ask you a few questions to see how sincere you are, because I do not want you to leave this world, and me being the last person you talked with me giving you a false hope. I ask him: would you be willing to leave your friends, if God would raise you up from this great sickness and heal you? He said I would quit practicing doing what I have done in the past~I said that is not enough; again would you be willing to leave them alone and live your life differently, of which he said, Yes. Then I said: Rory, there are no magical words that I can say that will cause God to regenerate you, for that is his work, not mine; but here is what I can say to you: IF you are truly sincere, and desire mercy from heaven, then God Almighty put that in you heart and NO MAN can take that away, and you will wake up in glory when you take your last breath. He took everything that I said with a meek and humble spirit, and said thank very much. We all stay there and talked with him for about three more hour and he was very alert, we left and four hours or so, he died. IF any man, ever experience a death bed salvation, like the thief on the cross, Rory very well could have. I am not God, but man, so I will leave that in his hands, not mine.
: DaveW Mon Dec 24, 2012 - 14:53:07
I am not saying that temptation is sin. But a same-sex attraction is not just a temptation. it is a state of existence, just like my hetro sexual orientation is a state of existence.
Me being tempted by a cute woman somewhere is just that - temptation. The orientation is correct and godly but the specific person (not my wife) would be erroneous.
Similarly the guy who is attracted to another guy - being tempted to be with some specific guy is just that: temptation and not sinful unless acted on. But the orientation itself is not godly or right. The orientation is sinful in and of itself.
Greetings David,
Most men, are not and have never been tempted to be with other men. It is unnatural, and against our nature. To be tempted with and by another women, is not unnatural or against nature, for it naturally works in our members, a beautiful women is a great temptation for most men, if he is a true man and if he is honest with himself. To give in to that temptation is sin; and as a child of God, we must not be allowed, or, put ourselves in a place where we are tempted, whereby we might not be able to escape.
: DaveW Mon Dec 24, 2012 - 14:53:07
I am not saying that temptation is sin. But a same-sex attraction is not just a temptation. it is a state of existence, just like my hetro sexual orientation is a state of existence.
Me being tempted by a cute woman somewhere is just that - temptation. The orientation is correct and godly but the specific person (not my wife) would be erroneous.
Similarly the guy who is attracted to another guy - being tempted to be with some specific guy is just that: temptation and not sinful unless acted on. But the orientation itself is not godly or right. The orientation is sinful in and of itself.
I agree Dave. Its not the seeing/noticing that is wrong, but when someone gives into that 'seeing' whether it it with another man or woman.
I dont agree that it is somehow better if the temptation is for someone of the opposite sex that of the same sex. Its not a sin unless it is lust or until it is acted on.
I often wonder how men draw the line between noticing/seeing and being tempted(looking for too long?)and actual sinning (lust?). I am just never tempted by another man apart from my husband, because I have no interest in another man in any way. We cant help who we see, but when does that become lust?
I do think you guys have brought up a good point about when a temptation becomes something unnatural,because Paul talks about it in Romans.
Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
It reminded me of what Christ said when talking about adultery
Matthew 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
I think the key there is to lust after her in there heart.Thats not just temptation but dwelling on it and focusing on it in your mind.So to look at a woman and say hey shes cute is one thing,but to go home that night and imaging doing things with her i would have to say that upon further reflecting it is Sin.
The difference than just a temptation ,is you like the act of physically committing adultery you make the decision of acting out the temptation in your mind.Which is worshiping and serving the creature more than the creator and bring yourself under the bondage of that lust.
I think your right that homosexuality arises when you allow your lusts to consume your thoughts to where you place more value on them,than the will of God.
The great thing is, its never too late to turn back to Gods will over your own.Paul describes the struggle after one acknowledges the sin that has taken hold in your heart.
Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:<-I THINK THIS IS THE KEY PART HERE
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
The verse describes sin that has over taken us to where it has control over your members,the key is to always acknowledge it as sin and pray and keep Faith that thru the sacrifice of Christ God will remove the lust from you and make you clean.
I don't understand what's wrong with homosexuals
Flawed Wings,
The answer to your question is found in Romans 1:21-32.
Homosexuality is a self imposed curse.
: FlawedWings Tue Dec 25, 2012 - 17:32:42
I don't understand what's wrong with homosexuals
Do you mean apart from the fact that God forbids sex between two men or two women?
: chosenone Tue Dec 25, 2012 - 19:32:49
: FlawedWings Tue Dec 25, 2012 - 17:32:42
I don't understand what's wrong with homosexuals
Do you mean apart from the fact that God forbids sex between two men or two women?
I know he forbids it. but I don't understand why. because two women or two men can't reproduce? mules can't reproduce but that doesn't mean they are an abomination. this is something I've actually tried reading about. but no matter how much I try to see the Christian view of homosexuality, I.. I just can't. I don't know why.
: FlawedWings Wed Dec 26, 2012 - 09:52:54
: chosenone Tue Dec 25, 2012 - 19:32:49
: FlawedWings Tue Dec 25, 2012 - 17:32:42
I don't understand what's wrong with homosexuals
Do you mean apart from the fact that God forbids sex between two men or two women?
I know he forbids it. but I don't understand why. because two women or two men can't reproduce? mules can't reproduce but that doesn't mean they are an abomination. this is something I've actually tried reading about. but no matter how much I try to see the Christian view of homosexuality, I.. I just can't. I don't know why.
Its a abomination because its a complete act of rebellion against God's created world.I believe when a person allows the lusts inside of them to be acted out in any form it prompts it leads to a depraved mind of which the satisfaction of the flesh becomes whats most important.You can not serve two masters
: robert9712000 Wed Dec 26, 2012 - 10:44:37
: FlawedWings Wed Dec 26, 2012 - 09:52:54
: chosenone Tue Dec 25, 2012 - 19:32:49
: FlawedWings Tue Dec 25, 2012 - 17:32:42
I don't understand what's wrong with homosexuals
Do you mean apart from the fact that God forbids sex between two men or two women?
I know he forbids it. but I don't understand why. because two women or two men can't reproduce? mules can't reproduce but that doesn't mean they are an abomination. this is something I've actually tried reading about. but no matter how much I try to see the Christian view of homosexuality, I.. I just can't. I don't know why.
Its a abomination because its a completed act of rebellion against God's created world.I believe when a person allows the lusts inside of them to be acted out in any form it prompts it leads to a depraved mind of which the satisfaction of the flesh becomes whats most important.You can not serve two masters
sometimes I wish God had only created one sex of humans. then sexist things and homosexuality wouldn't exist. then no one would fight over it..
: FlawedWings Wed Dec 26, 2012 - 10:53:20
sometimes I wish God had only created one sex of humans. then sexist things and homosexuality wouldn't exist. then no one would fight over it..
We aren't fighting.
We are declaring the truth of what God has said.
Advocating sinful lifestyles are not something that Grace Centered is going to allow. Read the passage I originally proscribed...the details are there.
: JohnDB Wed Dec 26, 2012 - 11:03:05
: FlawedWings Wed Dec 26, 2012 - 10:53:20
sometimes I wish God had only created one sex of humans. then sexist things and homosexuality wouldn't exist. then no one would fight over it..
We aren't fighting.
We are declaring the truth of what God has said.
Advocating sinful lifestyles are not something that Grace Centered is going to allow. Read the passage I originally proscribed...the details are there.
sorry about what I said,.. I just don't know who to talk to about how I feel. I've prayed long and hard but I feel empty, like I haven't gotten a reply. I thought maybe someone on here could help me figure out why I feel homosexuality is ok. apparently not. I am sorry I have troubled you, I will delete my comment if you haven't already. I'm just a dumb kid, I'm sorry for bothering you
I can't delete them.... I'm sorry for the trouble...
: FlawedWings Wed Dec 26, 2012 - 11:10:23
: JohnDB Wed Dec 26, 2012 - 11:03:05
: FlawedWings Wed Dec 26, 2012 - 10:53:20
sometimes I wish God had only created one sex of humans. then sexist things and homosexuality wouldn't exist. then no one would fight over it..
We aren't fighting.
We are declaring the truth of what God has said.
Advocating sinful lifestyles are not something that Grace Centered is going to allow. Read the passage I originally proscribed...the details are there.
sorry about what I said,.. I just don't know who to talk to about how I feel. I've prayed long and hard but I feel empty, like I haven't gotten a reply. I thought maybe someone on here could help me figure out why I feel homosexuality is ok. apparently not. I am sorry I have troubled you, I will delete my comment if you haven't already. I'm just a dumb kid, I'm sorry for bothering you
: FlawedWings Wed Dec 26, 2012 - 11:11:45
I can't delete them.... I'm sorry for the trouble...
the bruises from a friend is better for you than the kisses from an enemy.
Look, you want answers...and we have provided them for you.
It is incumbent upon you to look to the passage in Romans to read it and know what it says. It will tell you exactly why you have feelings like you do.
and aside from that passage I would recommend a good Christian mentor/counselor. (Youth Group at a local church can help a lot with this sort of thing)
There are two things out there that sound similar but ain't. One is wisdom and the other is knowledge.
Right now you have knowledge. But wisdom is the correct application of knowledge. And that is what we are giving to you. This is the internet. We get all kinds here to promote whatever their hearts think is correct. But not all is allowed on this sight.
Asking questions in a respectful manner is always allowed. Teaching others is only sometimes allowed. Promoting sin is never allowed.
So.,.remember what your English teachers have taught you and ask carefully before you declare something to be true.
: JohnDB Wed Dec 26, 2012 - 11:26:12
: FlawedWings Wed Dec 26, 2012 - 11:10:23
: JohnDB Wed Dec 26, 2012 - 11:03:05
: FlawedWings Wed Dec 26, 2012 - 10:53:20
sometimes I wish God had only created one sex of humans. then sexist things and homosexuality wouldn't exist. then no one would fight over it..
We aren't fighting.
We are declaring the truth of what God has said.
Advocating sinful lifestyles are not something that Grace Centered is going to allow. Read the passage I originally proscribed...the details are there.
sorry about what I said,.. I just don't know who to talk to about how I feel. I've prayed long and hard but I feel empty, like I haven't gotten a reply. I thought maybe someone on here could help me figure out why I feel homosexuality is ok. apparently not. I am sorry I have troubled you, I will delete my comment if you haven't already. I'm just a dumb kid, I'm sorry for bothering you
: FlawedWings Wed Dec 26, 2012 - 11:11:45
I can't delete them.... I'm sorry for the trouble...
the bruises from a friend is better for you than the kisses from an enemy.
Look, you want answers...and we have provided them for you.
It is incumbent upon you to look to the passage in Romans to read it and know what it says. It will tell you exactly why you have feelings like you do.
and aside from that passage I would recommend a good Christian mentor/counselor. (Youth Group at a local church can help a lot with this sort of thing)
There are two things out there that sound similar but ain't. One is wisdom and the other is knowledge.
Right now you have knowledge. But wisdom is the correct application of knowledge. And that is what we are giving to you. This is the internet. We get all kinds here to promote whatever their hearts think is correct. But not all is allowed on this sight. Asking questions in a respectful manner is always allowed. Teaching others is only sometimes allowed. Promoting sin is never allowed.
So.,.remember what your English teachers have taught you and ask carefully before you declare something to be true.
yes sir. I understand. I will go pray and read what you told me to. thank you sir for your patience with me.
The one thing you need to realize is we all have issues we each deal with.just always hold fast to the knowledge that God's word is truth and not only that ,but through his word is what brings peace.
May seem odd,but as a kid and still today whenever i needed a pick me up i would listen to the Moody Blues.They have a way of describing the struggles of life.The verse i especially like is where they say knowing is not controlling.Though we know the word of God we can't always control whats in our heads.Thats where hope and faith through Christ is needed to help you get through it.
After You Came by Moody Blues
Since it began i've got one dream
And really it's my only blessing
If i can come through then so can you
And you will find there's no regretting
Things that you want from your life's font
Will never let your spirit grow
Come back to earth for what it's worth
For you've been dreaming of the ceiling not a home
I've been doing my best
What else can i do?
Is there something i've missed
That will help you through
I've reached the top of my wall
I've found another way to fall
For some short time for a while you and i were joined to eternity
Then we're split in two back to me and you
Like the rain rising from the sea
Rising from the sea
We all can see what we shall be
But knowing's really not controlling
With time perhaps i'll pass the traps
And find some peace and understanding
After you've come and while you're gone
You leave me guessing it's depressing
Never to know the way to go
To find some time along a little less pressing
So you just have to laugh
When it hurts so much
You're so far away
And so hard to touch
I've reached the top of my wall
I've found another way to fall
Since it began i've got one dream
And really it's my only blessing
If i can come through then so can you
And you will find there's no regretting
: FlawedWings Wed Dec 26, 2012 - 10:53:20
: robert9712000 Wed Dec 26, 2012 - 10:44:37
: FlawedWings Wed Dec 26, 2012 - 09:52:54
: chosenone Tue Dec 25, 2012 - 19:32:49
: FlawedWings Tue Dec 25, 2012 - 17:32:42
I don't understand what's wrong with homosexuals
Do you mean apart from the fact that God forbids sex between two men or two women?
I know he forbids it. but I don't understand why. because two women or two men can't reproduce? mules can't reproduce but that doesn't mean they are an abomination. this is something I've actually tried reading about. but no matter how much I try to see the Christian view of homosexuality, I.. I just can't. I don't know why.
Its a abomination because its a completed act of rebellion against God's created world.I believe when a person allows the lusts inside of them to be acted out in any form it prompts it leads to a depraved mind of which the satisfaction of the flesh becomes whats most important.You can not serve two masters
sometimes I wish God had only created one sex of humans. then sexist things and homosexuality wouldn't exist. then no one would fight over it..
There would still be evil abounding and self-abuse would be a major source of evil. No matter what God does, man and Satan-infested minds will always desecrate it.
: Red Baker Mon Dec 24, 2012 - 14:53:26
No need to apologize, I fully understand your passionate spirit. Your point was well taken, in that, I should had slow down, and thought through my thoughts more than I did. That being said: I still would never refer to them as Gays, for reasons already given. God who we both believe in and serve, calls them Sodomites, and so should we, we are not more than and wise than our heavenly Father.
I can understand you not wishing to use the term 'gay' but I don't agree with the idea of labeling someone as a 'sodomite'. After all, we ALL sin...none of us would like to be labelled as a liar or a fornicator or whatever. And, more importantly, unless we give oursleves over to it, fully, we are NOT our sin (if that makes sense). For me, I may struggle with pride, but I am wanting to crush that and work toward being closer to Jesus. That doesn't make me 'proud', but it does make me a person who struggles with pride. That's a different thing completely.
And likewise for people who struggle with sexual issues. In my ex's case, he struggled with SSA but desperately did not want to be that way. His leanings in that direction were caused by long-term abuse as a child - he was still very attracted to women but had a percentage of him, which if explored, led him down a dark path. And as with all sin, the more he explored, the bigger the grip it got on his life. When light was shone on the darkness, he was open about it and very much wanted to deal with the root issue. You could well have simply labelled him as a 'sodomite' but I would never do that. He was a man who had a struggle with SSA and by God's grace, was (and still is) working his way toward healing, with the supernatural help of the Holy Spirit.
A person becomes a 'sodomite' when they willfully turn their backs on the Creator and He then gives them over to that persuasion. In the same way, that God does to us all, when we consistently reject His ways. We have to be careful with the terms we use.
: Gracey Thu Jan 03, 2013 - 05:03:36
: Red Baker Mon Dec 24, 2012 - 14:53:26
No need to apologize, I fully understand your passionate spirit. Your point was well taken, in that, I should had slow down, and thought through my thoughts more than I did. That being said: I still would never refer to them as Gays, for reasons already given. God who we both believe in and serve, calls them Sodomites, and so should we, we are not more than and wise than our heavenly Father.
I can understand you not wishing to use the term 'gay' but I don't agree with the idea of labeling someone as a 'sodomite'. After all, we ALL sin...none of us would like to be labelled as a liar or a fornicator or whatever. And, more importantly, unless we give oursleves over to it, fully, we are NOT our sin (if that makes sense). For me, I may struggle with pride, but I am wanting to crush that and work toward being closer to Jesus. That doesn't make me 'proud', but it does make me a person who struggles with pride. That's a different thing completely.
And likewise for people who struggle with sexual issues. In my ex's case, he struggled with SSA but desperately did not want to be that way. His leanings in that direction were caused by long-term abuse as a child - he was still very attracted to women but had a percentage of him, which if explored, led him down a dark path. And as with all sin, the more he explored, the bigger the grip it got on his life. When light was shone on the darkness, he was open about it and very much wanted to deal with the root issue. You could well have simply labelled him as a 'sodomite' but I would never do that. He was a man who had a struggle with SSA and by God's grace, was (and still is) working his way toward healing, with the supernatural help of the Holy Spirit.
A person becomes a 'sodomite' when they willfully turn their backs on the Creator and He then gives them over to that persuasion. In the same way, that God does to us all, when we consistently reject His ways. We have to be careful with the terms we use.
Greetings Gracey,
I fully understand the dilemma, you are in, and that allows you to (or tempts) to bring your feelings into an argument such as this one, and allow those feelings to override thus saith the Lord. Dear believer, we are not wiser than God, and definitely are not more compassionate than he is; so if he has chosen to use the word Sodomite toward any that has engaged in sex with one of the same sex, than we should follow him. Search the scriptures and you will see how our loving and merciful Father has chosen to use the word. Also, these people are a cancer to our society, that will quickly bring down all righteousness and godly deeds and thoughts toward God. When ever a godly king was on the throne in Israel, one of the first things that he did, was to remove the Sodomites out of the land, and the reason why~their lifestyle is contrary to godliness and righteousness, which alone exalts a nation, community, and churches.
JohnDB, made an excellent point: sodomy is
self imposed. Romans 1 makes that very clear. God is righteous, without the possibility of sinning. So if he judges people~ then it is base upon his righteousness, because of when they knew God, they glorify him not as God. Somewhere in their family tree, they rejected God in their thoughts, and refuse to acknowledge him as God, so he turn them over, to serve their own lust, and left them, and one of the end result is: men with men, and women with women, working that which is unseemly, and against nature.
I have seventeen grandchildren, and only trust God, that he will not allow such things in our family. Sodomy will increase, and be accepted as time draws near for our Lord's coming. That is not my opinion, but words of our Lord Jesus Christ. Luke 17:28
May the Lord, who is gracious above all, be so to you.
RB
I'm afraid Red, you have no understanding of the issue and to dismiss me, as being emotional, is patronising.
'These people' are your neighbours, the people who teach your grandchildren in school, the people who serve you in stores. If you want to go ahead and call them by the name of their sin and describe them as 'cancer', then of course, you can. But there are hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of believers who struggle with this. Just because a person is a believer, does not mean their sin and temptation is magicked away. It is a process of daily transformation - that is what the Bible says. It also says there is NO condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus - that means if a person struggles with something and commits their ways and their struggles to the Lord, He will help them, He will sustain them on the journey. That is what God is in the business of doing. For you to then label a believer with a sexual struggle, by the name of their sin....wow...!
If you're going to call believers by the name of their sin, then why not do it to everyone? What is your sin, your weakness, that you struggle with, Red? Perhaps we should all change our screen names on this site, to the name of our weakness?
: IHSscj Sat Nov 03, 2012 - 20:18:12
The current trend is to insist that our inherent traits as individual be accepted, regardless of whether society accepts them. But I was reading Codependent No More last night, and I got to the chapter, "learn the art of acceptance." I realized that I had never fully resolved the issue of why I was never attracted to women. I am devoted to Christ, so I am willing to do all for Him -- even to the point of reconsidering my gay identity.
Now, putting this in my own personal context, I have written a book, Teach Me, Loving Jesus, asking how I can find the "anti-gay" (or "traditional family") understanding that is supposed to be in scripture. So far, no one has sent me any eMails telling me how to understand a passage, say I Corinthians 6, in terms of a condemnation of gayness, despite all my misgivings. This is even though I have e-published my book on a website. (I would post the link here, but I understand that it is disallowed.)
So, even though my faith in Christ is strong, the prospect of living as anything but a joyful gay christian seems dim. ::pondering::, ::shrug::
Any thoughts?
I hope you dont mind me interjecting myself into your thread but this situation is deep in my heart. Feel free to ignore this response but I found comfort in this commentary on the situation of homosexuality by Jack Kelley:
Homosexuals In The Rapture
Posted December 6th, 2008 in Selah, Tough Questions Answered
Commentary by Jack Kelley
Last week's question on whether homosexual believers will be taken in the Rapture or not has really sparked some interesting, even emotional comment.
As we begin this study, let's clarify a few points. Living a homosexual lifestyle is living in sin. Both Old and New Testaments make that clear. But all believers are sinners, and we're all living in sin of some kind. Half of us who've been married have also been divorced. The percentage of Christian women who've had abortions is the same as for non-believers. Many of us have sins we simply cannot stop committing. (These are sometimes called besetting sins.) Some don't really want to stop committing these sins, but many have "cried out to the Lord in sack cloth and ashes" for deliverance and still can't stop.
This is not a new phenomenon. Some of the great heroes of the Bible had sin problems they couldn't control. Moses had trouble with his temper, David had a weakness for women, and we'll get to Paul in a minute.
Continue reading:
http://gracethrufaith.com/selah/homosexuals-in-the-rapture/#more-6205 (http://gracethrufaith.com/selah/homosexuals-in-the-rapture/#more-6205)
May God give you strength and comfort in your walk with Jesus.
: Gracey Thu Jan 03, 2013 - 08:40:02
I'm afraid Red, you have no understanding of the issue and to dismiss me, as being emotional, is patronising.
'These people' are your neighbours, the people who teach your grandchildren in school, the people who serve you in stores. If you want to go ahead and call them by the name of their sin and describe them as 'cancer', then of course, you can. But there are hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of believers who struggle with this. Just because a person is a believer, does not mean their sin and temptation is magicked away. It is a process of daily transformation - that is what the Bible says. It also says there is NO condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus - that means if a person struggles with something and commits their ways and their struggles to the Lord, He will help them, He will sustain them on the journey. That is what God is in the business of doing. For you to then label a believer with a sexual struggle, by the name of their sin....wow...!
Love that! Always the mote in our own eye overlooked.
If you're going to call believers by the name of their sin, then why not do it to everyone? What is your sin, your weakness, that you struggle with, Red? Perhaps we should all change our screen names on this site, to the name of our weakness?
: Stucky Fri Feb 01, 2013 - 17:20:54
: IHSscj Sat Nov 03, 2012 - 20:18:12
The current trend is to insist that our inherent traits as individual be accepted, regardless of whether society accepts them. But I was reading Codependent No More last night, and I got to the chapter, "learn the art of acceptance." I realized that I had never fully resolved the issue of why I was never attracted to women. I am devoted to Christ, so I am willing to do all for Him -- even to the point of reconsidering my gay identity.
Now, putting this in my own personal context, I have written a book, Teach Me, Loving Jesus, asking how I can find the "anti-gay" (or "traditional family") understanding that is supposed to be in scripture. So far, no one has sent me any eMails telling me how to understand a passage, say I Corinthians 6, in terms of a condemnation of gayness, despite all my misgivings. This is even though I have e-published my book on a website. (I would post the link here, but I understand that it is disallowed.)
So, even though my faith in Christ is strong, the prospect of living as anything but a joyful gay christian seems dim. ::pondering::, ::shrug::
Any thoughts?
I hope you dont mind me interjecting myself into your thread but this situation is deep in my heart. Feel free to ignore this response but I found comfort in this commentary on the situation of homosexuality by Jack Kelley:
Homosexuals In The Rapture
Posted December 6th, 2008 in Selah, Tough Questions Answered
Commentary by Jack Kelley
Last week's question on whether homosexual believers will be taken in the Rapture or not has really sparked some interesting, even emotional comment.
As we begin this study, let's clarify a few points. Living a homosexual lifestyle is living in sin. Both Old and New Testaments make that clear. But all believers are sinners, and we're all living in sin of some kind. Half of us who've been married have also been divorced. The percentage of Christian women who've had abortions is the same as for non-believers. Many of us have sins we simply cannot stop committing. (These are sometimes called besetting sins.) Some don't really want to stop committing these sins, but many have "cried out to the Lord in sack cloth and ashes" for deliverance and still can't stop.
This is not a new phenomenon. Some of the great heroes of the Bible had sin problems they couldn't control. Moses had trouble with his temper, David had a weakness for women, and we'll get to Paul in a minute.
Continue reading:
http://gracethrufaith.com/selah/homosexuals-in-the-rapture/#more-6205 (http://gracethrufaith.com/selah/homosexuals-in-the-rapture/#more-6205)
May God give you strength and comfort in your walk with Jesus.
Great article. We should be humble in our lack of understanding of other's struggles. It is not the sin we see people struggle with on earth but their personal relationship with God that determines their eternity. He knows their mind and heart and understands what struggles they will win on this side.
: BF Thu Mar 14, 2013 - 08:13:11
: Stucky Fri Feb 01, 2013 - 17:20:54
: IHSscj Sat Nov 03, 2012 - 20:18:12
The current trend is to insist that our inherent traits as individual be accepted, regardless of whether society accepts them. But I was reading Codependent No More last night, and I got to the chapter, "learn the art of acceptance." I realized that I had never fully resolved the issue of why I was never attracted to women. I am devoted to Christ, so I am willing to do all for Him -- even to the point of reconsidering my gay identity.
Now, putting this in my own personal context, I have written a book, Teach Me, Loving Jesus, asking how I can find the "anti-gay" (or "traditional family") understanding that is supposed to be in scripture. So far, no one has sent me any eMails telling me how to understand a passage, say I Corinthians 6, in terms of a condemnation of gayness, despite all my misgivings. This is even though I have e-published my book on a website. (I would post the link here, but I understand that it is disallowed.)
So, even though my faith in Christ is strong, the prospect of living as anything but a joyful gay christian seems dim. ::pondering::, ::shrug::
Any thoughts?
I hope you dont mind me interjecting myself into your thread but this situation is deep in my heart. Feel free to ignore this response but I found comfort in this commentary on the situation of homosexuality by Jack Kelley:
Homosexuals In The Rapture
Posted December 6th, 2008 in Selah, Tough Questions Answered
Commentary by Jack Kelley
Last week's question on whether homosexual believers will be taken in the Rapture or not has really sparked some interesting, even emotional comment.
As we begin this study, let's clarify a few points. Living a homosexual lifestyle is living in sin. Both Old and New Testaments make that clear. But all believers are sinners....
This is not a new phenomenon. Some of the great heroes of the Bible had sin problems they couldn't control. Moses had trouble with his temper, David had a weakness for women, and we'll get to Paul in a minute.
Continue reading:
http://gracethrufaith.com/selah/homosexuals-in-the-rapture/#more-6205 (http://gracethrufaith.com/selah/homosexuals-in-the-rapture/#more-6205)
May God give you strength and comfort in your walk with Jesus.
Great article. We should be humble in our lack of understanding of other's struggles. It is not the sin we see people struggle with on earth but their personal relationship with God that determines their eternity. He knows their mind and heart and understands what struggles they will win on this side.
I would generally say that the Rapture is off the subject. But, since you bring it up, I will just say that I trust
Jesus for every good thing. When the subject of the Rapture comes up, I generally shrug, say "It's all in my Savior
Jesus' hands, so why worry?" ::shrug::
: IHSscj Sat Nov 17, 2012 - 21:40:54
The thing is, I've studied the so-called "slamming" scriptures (which, in reality, are no more or less the "Word of God" than the rest of the scriptures from which they are cherry-picked):
Genesis 18 & 19
Leviticus 18: 22 & 20: 13
Judges 19- 21
Romans 1: 18 - 2: 1
I Corinthians 6
I Timothy 1: 9- 11
I've looked at what conservative christians say they mean, what liberal christians say they (might) mean, and come up with no solid antigay p.o.v. This is not to say that I believe that I can dispense with christian ethics as a whole. But finding a fellow-christian who can explain how s/he knows that gayness is always sinful, that has been fruitless so far.
Stop looking at the wisdom of men. People are wrong. Stop making excuses for your sin, you know that the Word of God condemns homosexuality because it is contrary to nature.
Romans 1:26-27
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.