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Would you want to explain how you came to that conclusion?

Almost the whole basis for anti-gay atitudes among Christians is their belief that the Lord judged Sodom for its homosexual activites  But Ezekiel never mentioned sex as their sin at all but rather the way they treated strangers and the poor.. Ezekiel 16:49-50  Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister SODOM, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.    And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good. So can we argue with the prophet of God, Ezekiel ? Was he mistaken when he was so exact and precise when declaring the 'Sin of Sodom' ?  For in Revelation again, no mention of sexuality is given, only that the Anti-Christ masses would not bury the two strangers, who were always coming into their anti-god kingdom and prophesying against them. Revelation  11:8-9  And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, (Jerusalem) which spiritually is called SODOM and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. (SEE Two End Time Prophets).

     But when you read the Biblical Book of Jasher which is mentioned in Joshua 10:13 and 2 Samuel 1: 18, it goes into much more detail that makes it clear that the Sins of Sodom were not merely sexual in nature, but went to the sins of their selfish proud hearts..  The Book of Jasher agreeing with Ezekiel and reinforcing what the Lord has always demanded of His people ... that they take care of strangers and the poor. But read it for yourself and answer the question yourself, straight from the scriptures in Jasher ...  http://earth-history.com/Pseudepigrapha/Jas/pseu-jasher-19.htm (http://earth-history.com/Pseudepigrapha/Jas/pseu-jasher-19.htm)

     25 And a poor man came into the city (of Sodom) to seek  maintenance, and he remained in the city some days, and all the people of Sodom caused a proclamation of their custom not to give this man a morsel of bread to eat, until he dropped dead upon the earth, and they did so 26 And Paltith the daughter of Lot saw this man lying in the streets starved with hunger, and no one would give him any thing to keep him alive, and he was just upon the point of death.27 And her soul was filled with pity on account of the man, and she fed him secretly with bread for many days, and the soul of this man was revived.

     28 For when she went forth to fetch water she would put the bread in the water pitcher, and when she came to the place where the poor man was, she took the bread from the pitcher and gave it him to eat; so she did many days. 29 And all the people of Sodom and Gomorrah wondered how this man could bear starvation for so many days. 30 And they said to each other, This can only be that he eats and drinks, for no man can bear starvation for so many days or live as this man has, without even his countenance changing; and three men concealed themselves in a place where the poor man was stationed, to know who it was that brought him bread to eat.

     31 And Paltith daughter of Lot went forth that day to fetch water, and she put bread into her pitcher of water, and she went to draw water by the poor man's place, and she took out the bread from the pitcher and gave it to the poor man and he ate it. 32 And the three men saw what Paltith did to the poor man, and they said to her, It is thou then who hast supported him, and therefore has he not starved, nor changed in appearance nor died like the rest.

     33 And the three men went out of the place in which they were concealed, and they seized Paltith and the bread which was in the poor man's hand. 34 And they took Paltith and brought her before their judges, and they said to them, Thus did she do, and it is she who supplied the poor man with bread, therefore did he not die all this time; now therefore declare to us the punishment due to this woman for having transgressed our law.   35 And the people of Sodom and Gomorrah assembled and kindled a fire in the street of the city, and they took the woman and cast her into the fire and she was burned to ashes.

Continued...

36 And in the city of Admah there was a woman to whom they did the like. 37 For a traveler came into the city of Admah to abide there all night, with the intention of going home in the morning, and he sat opposite the door of the house of the young woman's father, to remain there, as the sun had set when be had reached that place; and the young woman saw him sitting by the door of the house. 38 And he asked her for a drink of water and she said to him, Who art thou? and he said to her, I was this day going on the road, and reached here when the sun set, so I will abide here all night, and in the morning I will arise early and continue my journey.

     39 And the young woman went into the house and fetched the man bread and water to eat and drink. 40 And this affair became known to the people of Admah, and they assembled and brought the young woman before the judges, that they should judge her for this act.

     41 And the judge said, The judgment of death must pass upon this woman because she transgressed our law, and this therefore is the decision concerning her. 42 And the people of those cities assembled and brought out the young woman, and anointed her with honey from head to foot, as the judge had decreed, and they placed her before a swarm of bees which were then in their hives, and the bees flew upon her and stung her that her whole body was swelled. 43 And the young woman cried out on account of the bees, but no one took notice of her or pitied her, and her cries ascended to heaven  44 And the Lord was provoked at this and at all the works of the cities of Sodom, for they had abundance of food, and had tranquility amongst them, and still would not sustain the poor and the needy, and in those days their evil doings and sins became great before the Lord.

   

Cont.... verses from Jasher....

     45 And the Lord sent for two of the angels that had come to Abraham's house, to destroy Sodom and its cities. 46 And the angels rose up from the door of Abraham's tent, after they had eaten and drunk, and they reached Sodom in the evening, and Lot was then sitting in the gate of Sodom, and when he saw them he rose to meet them, and he bowed down to the ground. 47 And he pressed them greatly and brought them into his house, and he gave them victuals which they ate, and they abode all night in his house.

     48 And the angels said to Lot, Arise, go forth from this place, thou and all belonging to thee, lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of this city, for the Lord will destroy this place. 49 And the angels laid hold upon the hand of Lot and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hands of his children, and all belonging to him, and they brought him forth and set him without the cities. 50 And they said to Lot, Escape for thy life, and he fled and all belonging to him.

     51 Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah and upon all these cities brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven. 52 And he overthrew these cities, all the plain and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground; and Ado the wife of Lot looked back to see the destruction of the cities, for her compassion was moved on account of her daughters who remained in Sodom, for they did not go with her. 53 And when she looked back she became a pillar of salt, and it is yet in that.

That's a start, Helen.

Its verses from direct prophecy by Ezekiel.... as Sodom was a city state, that was wealthy because of its geographic trading location, and as such was proud, rich, and idle, and hence hated strangers which they deemed beneath their status.... IE they had nationalistic patriotic pride, and abused or killed strangers that enetered THEREIN, and the cry came before the Lord of those killed and abused.

Racism is basically when a people put themselves above all others or certain others. Yet the Lord has always told his people to have hospitality and to receive others, even accepting any and all that wanted to join them (if they believed)

This Jesus of course reinforced..... This is my commanbdment that you love one another...and all those parables and truths He spoke about concerning neighbors, the Good Samartitan etc. etc.... We`are to love all, strangers, neighbors , other nationalities , all.

Helen, I tried to post this in UNTRADITIONAL TOPICS, but it didn;t go through so I brought it HERE, and still had a little trouble. Probably because of its length in posting all those scriptures. Note the first post and the .....

But do continue to ask questions, and bring forth your verses and reasonings even though you are a woman and this apparrently is for men only. I for one, definitely
would like your input, as from every thing I have read it seems the women were as much to blame in Sodom as the men were.

But when you read the Biblical Book of Jasher

That's one of many problems that you have.  You have no biblical proof from the NT that such a book was ever considered to be part of the word of God, that God moved holy men of old to write.  Prove to me that such a book was ever quoted from by Jesus, or any of the apostles~you cannot do it.

Another problem you have is that you cannot even read the NT which we know is inspired by God.  Have you never read this:

Jude 7

"Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example of vengeance of eternal fire."

Not only Sodom and Gomorrha gave themselves over to fornication, which Sodomy falls under, but the cites around them did as well, only they (Sodom) were know for this sin, much like San Francisco; ever heard of that city full of perverts?  It is indeed strange when men sexually desire the flesh of men, and women burn in their wicked hearts for women~ it is going against the way that God created us.  Adultery is a terrible sin, yet it does not work contrary to our nature, and the way in which we were created, but sodomy does;   It is as Jude said~going after strange flesh!

Where do you read in Jude of what you want others to believe?  The faithful will never follow such spirits as yours, without you proving your doctrine from the scriptures, for they are children of faith~ and without biblical proof, you are wasting your time.

RB

David I have moved it to non traditional theology as you wanted it to be in.

In Genesis 18, God Himself tells Abraham the reason for the destruction of Sodom.
It was neither racism or fornication. It was the fact that there was not a living soul in the city that was righteous.
The city was so intrinsically evil, in every aspect, that the cry for justice reached heaven.

We are not talking about a city of fornication only.
Sodom was far more, it was a town drenched in evil. Sodomy was just a part of it.

: AVZ  Sun Dec 15, 2013 - 04:36:09
In Genesis 18, God Himself tells Abraham the reason for the destruction of Sodom.
It was neither racism or fornication. It was the fact that there was not a living soul in the city that was righteous.
The city was so intrinsically evil, in every aspect, that the cry for justice reached heaven.

We are not talking about a city of fornication only.
Sodom was far more, it was a town drenched in evil. Sodomy was just a part of it.

I would not disagree with this, but agree.  Ezekiel did add some more of their sins.

: Red Baker  Sun Dec 15, 2013 - 04:50:02

: AVZ  Sun Dec 15, 2013 - 04:36:09
In Genesis 18, God Himself tells Abraham the reason for the destruction of Sodom.
It was neither racism or fornication. It was the fact that there was not a living soul in the city that was righteous.
The city was so intrinsically evil, in every aspect, that the cry for justice reached heaven.

We are not talking about a city of fornication only.
Sodom was far more, it was a town drenched in evil. Sodomy was just a part of it.

I would not disagree with this, but agree.  Ezekiel did add some more of their sins.

I also agree...and David, you are trying to make it about one sin that destroyed the people.  It wasn't. It was the depth and height and breadth of their complete depravity that caused their destruction.  ONE sin was not the issue, it was the heart of that place...utterly and completely evil, pride, fists flying in the face of God.

I imagine much like the days of Noah...only it was more concentrated to the one place rather than rampant all over behaviors of godlessness.

: AVZ  Sun Dec 15, 2013 - 04:36:09
In Genesis 18, God Himself tells Abraham the reason for the destruction of Sodom.
It was neither racism or fornication. It was the fact that there was not a living soul in the city that was righteous.
The city was so intrinsically evil, in every aspect, that the cry for justice reached heaven.

We are not talking about a city of fornication only.
Sodom was far more, it was a town drenched in evil. Sodomy was just a part of it.

yep that is what I was going to say. It was one of the many sins.

: Red Baker  Sun Dec 15, 2013 - 03:17:37

But when you read the Biblical Book of Jasher

That's one of many problems that you have.  You have no biblical proof from the NT that such a book was ever considered to be part of the word of God, that God moved holy men of old to write.  Prove to me that such a book was ever quoted from by Jesus, or any of the apostles~you cannot do it.

Another problem you have is that you cannot even read the NT which we know is inspired by God.  Have you never read this:

Jude 7

"Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example of vengeance of eternal fire."

Not only Sodom and Gomorrha gave themselves over to fornication, which Sodomy falls under, but the cites around them did as well, only they (Sodom) were know for this sin, much like San Francisco; ever heard of that city full of perverts?  It is indeed strange when men sexually desire the flesh of men, and women burn in their wicked hearts for women~ it is going against the way that God created us.  Adultery is a terrible sin, yet it does not work contrary to our nature, and the way in which we were created, but sodomy does;   It is as Jude said~going after strange flesh!

Where do you read in Jude of what you want others to believe?  The faithful will never follow such spirits as yours, without you proving your doctrine from the scriptures, for they are children of faith~ and without biblical proof, you are wasting your time.

RB

The true story of Sodom happened in Old Testament times, and Ezekiel through the Holy Spirit and direct WORD OF THUS SAITH THE LORD, said there sins were pride, fulness and idleness. Jasher was mentioned and told as scripture from the TWO not one scripturial references in traditional Books of the Old Testament. They should know, it was in their time.

Sodom obviously hated strangers.

And please follow the rules and do not say 'The faithful will never follow such spirits as yours, without you proving your doctrine from the scriptures, for they are children of faith~ and without biblical proof, you are wasting your time.'  

I have presented a start of my biblical proof, just as you are attempting to present yours. It is for the faithful and the loving to determine for themselves what the sin of Sodom was.

: chosenone  Sun Dec 15, 2013 - 03:43:13
David I have moved it to non traditional theology as you wanted it to be in.

Thank you, even though Mens Sexual Forum was also an option. It wouldn;t post because I think its length was too long.

: AVZ  Sun Dec 15, 2013 - 04:36:09
In Genesis 18, God Himself tells Abraham the reason for the destruction of Sodom.
It was neither racism or fornication. It was the fact that there was not a living soul in the city that was righteous.
The city was so intrinsically evil, in every aspect, that the cry for justice reached heaven.

We are not talking about a city of fornication only.
Sodom was far more, it was a town drenched in evil. Sodomy was just a part of it.

David, you are talking about the symptoms of the one real and major sin:  turning away from God and refusing the truth.  It is THIS which results in depravity in all its various forms, whether it be racism, sexual, or whatever.  You cannot pick one of the symptoms and call it the whole disease. 

Is racism a sin?  To say yes you must define racism.

Is it to recognize that there are indeed different races...for God Himself tells us this and I don't consider it a sin.  Sadly, there are some today that say that seeing color is racist. 

Is it to see one race as better or more loved by God than another?  Some point out because God has a "chosen" family that He is a racist.   

Where and how is racism defined as sin?  What is your definition of racism?

: Davidjayjordan  Sun Dec 15, 2013 - 11:07:23

: Red Baker  Sun Dec 15, 2013 - 03:17:37

But when you read the Biblical Book of Jasher

That's one of many problems that you have.  You have no biblical proof from the NT that such a book was ever considered to be part of the word of God, that God moved holy men of old to write.  Prove to me that such a book was ever quoted from by Jesus, or any of the apostles~you cannot do it.

Another problem you have is that you cannot even read the NT which we know is inspired by God.  Have you never read this:

Jude 7

"Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example of vengeance of eternal fire."

Not only Sodom and Gomorrha gave themselves over to fornication, which Sodomy falls under, but the cites around them did as well, only they (Sodom) were know for this sin, much like San Francisco; ever heard of that city full of perverts?  It is indeed strange when men sexually desire the flesh of men, and women burn in their wicked hearts for women~ it is going against the way that God created us.  Adultery is a terrible sin, yet it does not work contrary to our nature, and the way in which we were created, but sodomy does;   It is as Jude said~going after strange flesh!

Where do you read in Jude of what you want others to believe?  The faithful will never follow such spirits as yours, without you proving your doctrine from the scriptures, for they are children of faith~ and without biblical proof, you are wasting your time.

RB

The true story of Sodom happened in Old Testament times, and Ezekiel through the Holy Spirit and direct WORD OF THUS SAITH THE LORD, said there sins were pride, fulness and idleness. Jasher was mentioned and told as scripture from the TWO not one scripturial references in traditional Books of the Old Testament. They should know, it was in their time.

Sodom obviously hated strangers.

And please follow the rules and do not say 'The faithful will never follow such spirits as yours, without you proving your doctrine from the scriptures, for they are children of faith~ and without biblical proof, you are wasting your time.'  

I have presented a start of my biblical proof, just as you are attempting to present yours. It is for the faithful and the loving to determine for themselves what the sin of Sodom was.

Sodom did not hate strangers by definition.
Lot was a stranger, yet he lived among them.
The Bible tells us that Lot was sitting at the gate of the city, so he actually was a respected citizen.

The men of Sodom did not hate the two newcomers...they liked them so much that they lusted after them.

: Helen  Sun Dec 15, 2013 - 12:07:24
David, you are talking about the symptoms of the one real and major sin:  turning away from God and refusing the truth.  It is THIS which results in depravity in all its various forms, whether it be racism, sexual, or whatever.  You cannot pick one of the symptoms and call it the whole disease.

.. Yes they turned away from the God of LOVE and turned to the many vices of lack of love.... like nationalism, racism, humiliation, abuse of strangers, and even killing of strangers, the ultimate act of lack of love.

: Davidjayjordan  Mon Dec 16, 2013 - 00:25:58

: Helen  Sun Dec 15, 2013 - 12:07:24
David, you are talking about the symptoms of the one real and major sin:  turning away from God and refusing the truth.  It is THIS which results in depravity in all its various forms, whether it be racism, sexual, or whatever.  You cannot pick one of the symptoms and call it the whole disease.

.. Yes they turned away from the God of LOVE and turned to the many vices of lack of love.... like nationalism, racism, humiliation, abuse of strangers, and even killing of strangers, the ultimate act of lack of love.

and also homosexual acting out...don't forget that.  It is one of the sins being committed there.

: whirlwind  Sun Dec 15, 2013 - 16:12:20
Is racism a sin?  To say yes you must define racism.

Is it to recognize that there are indeed different races...for God Himself tells us this and I don't consider it a sin.  Sadly, there are some today that say that seeing color is racist. 

Is it to see one race as better or more loved by God than another?  Some point out because God has a "chosen" family that He is a racist.   

Where and how is racism defined as sin?  What is your definition of racism?

I can answer the question as I started this thread, but it will be your turn to answer afterwards.

Racism is prejudice AGAINST another race. It is a bias. It is actions that stem from a belief system that deems one race above another and therefore treats them that way.

Seeing color is hardly racism...... living with different colors in respect and harmony and equality is Christianity, Jesus died for all, not just some. He has no favorites or chosen opnes. All must individually choose HIM, for He is the ONLY CHOSEN ONE.

Now before trying to ask another question, you answer what you think racism is.

: Davidjayjordan  Mon Dec 16, 2013 - 09:54:28

: whirlwind  Sun Dec 15, 2013 - 16:12:20
Is racism a sin?  To say yes you must define racism.

Is it to recognize that there are indeed different races...for God Himself tells us this and I don't consider it a sin.  Sadly, there are some today that say that seeing color is racist. 

Is it to see one race as better or more loved by God than another?  Some point out because God has a "chosen" family that He is a racist.   

Where and how is racism defined as sin?  What is your definition of racism?

I can answer the question as I started this thread, but it will be your turn to answer afterwards.

Racism is prejudice AGAINST another race. It is a bias. It is actions that stem from a belief system that deems one race above another and therefore treats them that way.

Seeing color is hardly racism...... living with different colors in respect and harmony and equality is Christianity, Jesus died for all, not just some. He has no favorites or chosen opnes. All must individually choose HIM, for He is the ONLY CHOSEN ONE.

Now before trying to ask another question, you answer what you think racism is.

Racism to me is hatred or dislike of another person only because of their color.  Is the sin you speak of racism or the hatred or dislike of another without cause....the sin God speaks of?





Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.


Is racism a sin or is the hatred (no matter what color) of a brother the sin?  What is a brother?  I don't see racism as a sin but rather the "prejudice against another" with no regard to race at all as...the sin. 


Then, there is homosexuality.  Are those engaging in that practice our "brothers in Christ?"  Are you excusing homosexuality and saying it is not a sin?

David,

There's a problem with the modern book of Jasher.  Namely, it isn't the same book alluded to in the Old Testament.  It was written in Spain in the 12th century AD, as a collection of Jewish tales handed down orally.  The stories there are more 'complete' because they have been embellished, in some cases quite a bit, as they were handed down.

The "Book of Jasher" alluded to in the OT is something we still have, at least in an edited form.  It is the basis for the text of the OT books of 1Kings and 2Kings, and possibly part/all of Judges.

Note that 'Jasher' in Hebrew is "ISR" which is simply the first three letters of ISRael.  "Jeshurun" is another word meaning the same in your OT, as well.  "Book of Jasher" = Book of Israel, which is to say that it was simply their national history book.

Jarrod

A little learning is a dangerous thing . . .

: Nevertheless  Mon Dec 16, 2013 - 13:06:28
A little learning is a dangerous thing . . .

True learning is always a good thing.....

But we must write more than one sentence as that is one of the rules HERE. Sounds good to me.

: whirlwind  Mon Dec 16, 2013 - 10:33:28

: Davidjayjordan  Mon Dec 16, 2013 - 09:54:28

: whirlwind  Sun Dec 15, 2013 - 16:12:20
Is racism a sin?  To say yes you must define racism.

Is it to recognize that there are indeed different races...for God Himself tells us this and I don't consider it a sin.  Sadly, there are some today that say that seeing color is racist. 

Is it to see one race as better or more loved by God than another?  Some point out because God has a "chosen" family that He is a racist.   

Where and how is racism defined as sin?  What is your definition of racism?

I can answer the question as I started this thread, but it will be your turn to answer afterwards.

Racism is prejudice AGAINST another race. It is a bias. It is actions that stem from a belief system that deems one race above another and therefore treats them that way.

Seeing color is hardly racism...... living with different colors in respect and harmony and equality is Christianity, Jesus died for all, not just some. He has no favorites or chosen opnes. All must individually choose HIM, for He is the ONLY CHOSEN ONE.

Now before trying to ask another question, you answer what you think racism is.

Racism to me is hatred or dislike of another person only because of their color.  Is the sin you speak of racism or the hatred or dislike of another without cause....the sin God speaks of?





Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Excellent verse, exception verse, as I wanted to post that one as confirmation myself. Hate in the heart is a sin, arrogance and pride as with Sodom was a sin, which lead to them putting that hate into actions that killed strangers.
Is racism a sin or is the hatred (no matter what color) of a brother the sin?  What is a brother?  I don't see racism as a sin but rather the "prejudice against another" with no regard to race at all as...the sin. 


Then, there is homosexuality.  Are those engaging in that practice our "brothers in Christ?"  Are you excusing homosexuality and saying it is not a sin?

: whirlwind  Sun Dec 15, 2013 - 16:12:20
Is racism a sin?  To say yes you must define racism.

Is it to recognize that there are indeed different races...for God Himself tells us this and I don't consider it a sin.  Sadly, there are some today that say that seeing color is racist. 

Is it to see one race as better or more loved by God than another?  Some point out because God has a "chosen" family that He is a racist.   

Where and how is racism defined as sin?  What is your definition of racism?

I have said such and that is on the basis that some maintain that Israel has a superior position over "Gentiles" because they were the "chosen."  They were the chosen because God used them to bring forth the Messiah, Jesus Christ.   At the cross Christ reconciled all of mankind and that's why Paul said that in Christ there is no difference, yet some are maintaining that is not true.

I am Caucasian but also Native American (Cherokee and Shawnee).   That does not define who I am in Christ.   The physical should not define the Spiritual.   In Christ all believers are part of one people and no nationality or race has a superior position in Christ

Awesome and very TRUE,

I am one eighth Cherokee, and one eighth Jewish, with German, and English mixed in, but as you say none of these races define me, I am defined by the Creator and defined by my choices to love or not love.

I perceive notreligus, that you have the right religion of the heart.

Yet as you say, some still cling to the belief system that causes strife, that one race is superior to others. This obviously has cause immense trouble and continues to cause immense problems.

SEE JEWS ARE JUST PEOPLE THREAD

All of the above is interesting but has nothing to do with the sin of Sodom...which was homosexuality...not racism.

whirlwind, if you check Romans 1, you will find that homosexuality is the result of suppressing or denying the truth of God.  It's a symptom more than the disease itself.

.

I am quite surprised no one has quoted from Genesis 19 where the story of Sodom and Gomorrah appears.  These men were so wicked that when they saw two men enter Lot's house the first thing that entered their minds was sex.  And they were so perverted they were going to rape angels!

They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."
Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing". (Genesis 19: 5-7 NIV)

The men of Sodom clearly understood these were "men" that they wanted to have sex with---they were so unholy they did not recognize that they wanted to rape angels.

Lot very clearly states that what they were going to was a "wicked thing".  God says that the men of Sodom were "wicked exceedingly" and it wasn't due to inhospitality---it was due to sexual perversion and vice.  That is very, very clear.

: fish153  Thu Dec 19, 2013 - 19:27:41
I am quite surprised no one has quoted from Genesis 19 where the story of Sodom and Gomorrah appears.  These men were so wicked that when they saw two men enter Lot's house the first thing that entered their minds was sex.  And they were so perverted they were going to rape angels!

They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."
Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing". (Genesis 19: 5-7 NIV)

Lot very clearly states that what they were going to was a "wicked thing".  God says that the men of Sodom were "wicked exceedingly" and it wasn't due to inhospitality---it was due to sexual perversion and vice.  That is very, very clear.

.

: fish153  Thu Dec 19, 2013 - 19:27:41
I am quite surprised no one has quoted from Genesis 19 where the story of Sodom and Gomorrah appears.  These men were so wicked that when they saw two men enter Lot's house the first thing that entered their minds was sex.  And they were so perverted they were going to rape angels!

They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."
Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing". (Genesis 19: 5-7 NIV)

The men of Sodom clearly understood these were "men" that they wanted to have sex with---they were so unholy they did not recognize that they wanted to rape angels.

Lot very clearly states that what they were going to was a "wicked thing".  God says that the men of Sodom were "wicked exceedingly" and it wasn't due to inhospitality---it was due to sexual perversion and vice.  That is very, very clear.

Fish,

Before the angels were sent to Sodom, God already had in mind to destroy the city.
In Genesis 18 God gives His reason to Abraham. Sodom was so intensely wicked that the cry of its wickedness reached heaven.

The angels were sent to Sodom to check things out. The wish of the men of Sodom to rape the two men was just a part of the total evil of Sodom.

Sodom was not destroyed because of homosexuality. Sodomy was just a part of the total evil of this city.

.Yes,  Jesus talked to Abraham and then let the two angels go to Sodom,

testing to see if this finnally goes through

: AVZ  Thu Dec 19, 2013 - 19:52:39

: fish153  Thu Dec 19, 2013 - 19:27:41
I am quite surprised no one has quoted from Genesis 19 where the story of Sodom and Gomorrah appears.  These men were so wicked that when they saw two men enter Lot's house the first thing that entered their minds was sex.  And they were so perverted they were going to rape angels!

They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."
Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing". (Genesis 19: 5-7 NIV)

The men of Sodom clearly understood these were "men" that they wanted to have sex with---they were so unholy they did not recognize that they wanted to rape angels.

Lot very clearly states that what they were going to was a "wicked thing".  God says that the men of Sodom were "wicked exceedingly" and it wasn't due to inhospitality---it was due to sexual perversion and vice.  That is very, very clear.

Fish,

Before the angels were sent to Sodom, God already had in mind to destroy the city.
In Genesis 18 God gives His reason to Abraham. Sodom was so intensely wicked that the cry of its wickedness reached heaven.

The angels were sent to Sodom to check things out. The wish of the men of Sodom to rape the two men was just a part of the total evil of Sodom.

Sodom was not destroyed because of homosexuality. Sodomy was just a part of the total evil of this city.

Oh--I never meant to say that Sodom was destroyed just because of sodomy.  The people there were "wicked exceedingly before the Lord".  I was simply stating, and showing, the depraved nature this population of people had sunk to. When the men of a city try to bash down the door of a man's house so that they can literally rape two other men (who were really angels) I think the Lord's resolve to destroy that city was strengthened.  He tells Lot to "leave immediately" when He beheld these depraved men and their reaction to two visiting angels.

They were not only perverted men--they were also violent, and bordering on insanity.  Can you imagine a group of men outside your house trying to bash down the door so they can rape two friends who are visiting you?  That's depraved insanity.  So, I am stating the sin of Sodom was not racism, or not showing hospitality--it was because they were complete reprobates at heart---having unnatural sexual and social cravings brought on by the fullness of sin expressing itself in their lives.

Lets see what Jesus said about Sodom, and a worse place than Sodom...and see if sexuality is mentioned

Mathew11
23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

: Davidjayjordan  Fri Dec 20, 2013 - 14:19:54
Lets see what Jesus said about Sodom, and a worse place than Sodom...and see if sexuality is mentioned

Mathew11
23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

Did you read Fish's post?  It is about the complete depravity of their hearts and the symptoms of that.

So what that Jesus didn't mention sexually acting out, it *is* mentioned elsewhere and it *was* one of the symptoms of the vileness going on in Sodom!

Fish also note that anal humiliation is not what gay people do, they basically do it for a type of pleasure. There is a WORLD OF DIFFERENCE when hateful guys do it to absolutely debase , torture and persecute those they absolutely hate and despise. It is a mob mentality where onlookers gloat and goad on the devils that do such evil deeds. Know the difference and do not put hate in your heart for the wrong people.

: Davidjayjordan  Fri Dec 20, 2013 - 14:23:16
Fish also note that anal humiliation is not what gay people do, they basically do it for a type of pleasure. There is a WORLD OF DIFFERENCE when hateful guys do it to absolutely debase , torture and persecute those they absolutely hate and despise. It is a mob mentality where onlookers gloat and goad on the devils that do such evil deeds. Know the difference and do not put hate in your heart for the wrong people.

Do you say homosexuality is not sin?

: Davidjayjordan  Fri Dec 20, 2013 - 14:23:16
Know the difference and do not put hate in your heart for the wrong people.

SIGH!  Again with assumptions and accusation!

What is up with this?  Why would you accuse Fish of having hate in his heart for people?

: whirlwind  Thu Dec 19, 2013 - 14:24:22
All of the above is interesting but has nothing to do with the sin of Sodom...which was homosexuality...not racism.

Come on brethren, your grasping at straws to validate your sexual thoughts or lack of them, when you try to label homosexuality as the great sin..

For again, what did Jesus say...

Read brethren read.

What do THUS SAITH THE LORD scriptures say about SODOM OF THE ENDTIMES. WHAT CITY IS IT and WHY.

Study or ask the Lord.

Answer the question ?

Use an on line concordance, Study , discern your own heart, ask why most churches deem homosexuality the great sin.... why.

: MeMyself  Fri Dec 20, 2013 - 14:26:01

: Davidjayjordan  Fri Dec 20, 2013 - 14:23:16
Know the difference and do not put hate in your heart for the wrong people.

SIGH!  Again with assumptions and accusation!

What is up with this?  Why would you accuse Fish of having hate in his heart for people?

I did not say he had hate in his heart, but anyone that despises homosexuals because apparrently the Lord despises them for their sexuality is in danger of putting hate in their heart or calling others RACCA.

Know the difference between anal humiliation hatred and homosexual orientation. Know the difference and STOP with the non stop accusations against me. Answer the question, what city is Sodom in the End Time.

The rules say you can not change what I wrote and suggest I said something different. Follow the rules.

: Davidjayjordan  Fri Dec 20, 2013 - 14:29:51

: MeMyself  Fri Dec 20, 2013 - 14:26:01

: Davidjayjordan  Fri Dec 20, 2013 - 14:23:16
Know the difference and do not put hate in your heart for the wrong people.

SIGH!  Again with assumptions and accusation!

What is up with this?  Why would you accuse Fish of having hate in his heart for people?

I did not say he had hate in his heart, but anyone that despises homosexuals because apparrently the Lord despises them for their sexuality is in danger of putting hate in their heart or calling others RACCA.

Saying a behavior is sin is not hatred. Just FYI.

: Davidjayjordan  Fri Dec 20, 2013 - 14:29:51Know the difference between anal humiliation hatred and homosexual orientation. Know the difference and STOP with the non stop accusations against me.

I didn't accuse you but ASKED you to answer for your own words.  Know the difference!

: Davidjayjordan  Fri Dec 20, 2013 - 14:29:51
The rules say you can not change what I wrote and suggest I said something different. Follow the rules.

I DID NOT CHANGE one WORD of what you wrote!!! 

: MeMyself  Fri Dec 20, 2013 - 14:25:06

: Davidjayjordan  Fri Dec 20, 2013 - 14:23:16
Fish also note that anal humiliation is not what gay people do, they basically do it for a type of pleasure. There is a WORLD OF DIFFERENCE when hateful guys do it to absolutely debase , torture and persecute those they absolutely hate and despise. It is a mob mentality where onlookers gloat and goad on the devils that do such evil deeds. Know the difference and do not put hate in your heart for the wrong people.

Do you say homosexuality is not sin?

I echo this question.

: Davidjayjordan  Fri Dec 20, 2013 - 14:26:40

: whirlwind  Thu Dec 19, 2013 - 14:24:22
All of the above is interesting but has nothing to do with the sin of Sodom...which was homosexuality...not racism.

Come on brethren, your grasping at straws to validate your sexual thoughts or lack of them, when you try to label homosexuality as the great sin..

For again, what did Jesus say...

Read brethren read.

What do THUS SAITH THE LORD scriptures say about SODOM OF THE ENDTIMES. WHAT CITY IS IT and WHY.

Study or ask the Lord.

Answer the question ?

Use an on line concordance, Study , discern your own heart, ask why most churches deem homosexuality the great sin.... why.

Its one of the sexual sins, and if God calls it an 'abomination', then to me that says its pretty serious in His eyes..

I said that the sin of Sodom was racism, and all the direct prophecies from Ezekiel onward which say it was the affluence, materialism, nationalism and hatred they had for others which was thier horrible sin.

If you want to start a new thread on homsexuality and how you believe it is a great sin or the greatest sin, go ahead.

But harping on that would be 'hijacking' this thread.

Those are the rules, please follow them.

As I suggested, look up what city is called Sodom in the End Times

Where did Jesus say Capernum was sinful because of their sexuality, no it was their evil pride and nationalism and hatred for outsiders.

: Davidjayjordan  Fri Dec 20, 2013 - 14:41:26
I said that the sin of Sodom was racism, and all the direct prophecies from Ezekiel onward which say it was the affluence, materialism, nationalism and hatred they had for others which was thier horrible sin.

If you want to start a new thread on homsexuality and how you believe it is a great sin or the greatest sin, go ahead.

But harping on that would be 'hijacking' this thread.

Those are the rules, please follow them.

As I suggested, look up what city is called Sodom in the End Times

Where did Jesus say Capernum was sinful because of their sexuality, no it was their evil pride and nationalism and hatred for outsiders.

No it wouldn't be irrelevant to this thread, its very relevant actually. Its a simple question. Do you believe God when He says that sex between two men is an abomination?

Choosenone, you of all people should know the rules and yet you repeat and try to hijack this thread. Start a new thread and give your reasonings and verses against homosexuality and lesbians and whoever you choose. That's your right. But HERE, this topic is about the evil vile racism of Sodom and Capernaum, and ?????

Come on brethren read...what city is called Sodom in the End Time.

: Davidjayjordan  Fri Dec 20, 2013 - 14:55:49
Choosenone, you of all people should know the rules and yet you repeat and try to hijack this thread. Start a new thread and give your reasonings and verses against homosexuality and lesbians and whoever you choose. That's your right. But HERE, this topic is about the evil vile racism of Sodom and Capernaum, and ?????

Come on brethren read...what city is called Sodom in the End Time.

The question is very very relevant because you are trying to deny that the sin of bestiality was an any way relevant to God destroying this city.  I find it troubling that you refuse to answer, but it may explain why you are desperately trying to make out that their sin of men having sex with men wasnt part or all of the reason God did what He did.

I think most of here have said that these people were clearly just depraved in many ways, including wanting sex with their own sex. It was all part of their immorality and sin. One of several serious sins.

The people of Sodom and the people of Capernaum and the people of the most evil city of all in the End Time had hate in their hearts.

Mathew 5
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

"Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error". (Romans 1)

"Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.  And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God". (1 Cor. 6:9-11)

Please note the above verses.  I do not hate homosexuals, nor do I hate alcoholics.  I am an alcoholic---I have not had a drink for seven years.  I believe alcoholism is hereditary, but it does not give me an excuse to say "I was born this way, therefore I will stay drunk the rest of my life". Neither should a homosexual say because they were born that way they should continue in that lifestyle.

No--according to 1 Corinthians 6 drunkards will not inherit the Kingdom of God---and neither will homosexuals. Scripture says this, not me. Homosexuality is not the great sin---but it is a sin that if habitually continued in will keep you from the truth, and keep you from Heaven---just as alcoholism will if you do not deny it, and allow the Spirit of God to control your life.

fish, congratulations on winning your battle with alcohol.  I used to work in a long-term hospital and we had a lot of alcoholics.  Very few ever win that battle.  God bless.

: Helen  Fri Dec 20, 2013 - 19:48:20
fish, congratulations on winning your battle with alcohol.  I used to work in a long-term hospital and we had a lot of alcoholics.  Very few ever win that battle.  God bless.

Thank you!  It was God's Grace.  Praise the Lord!

David, is English your first language?

: fish153  Fri Dec 20, 2013 - 19:26:36
"Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error". (Romans 1)

"Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.  And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God". (1 Cor. 6:9-11)

Please note the above verses.  I do not hate homosexuals, nor do I hate alcoholics.  I am an alcoholic---I have not had a drink for seven years.  I believe alcoholism is hereditary, but it does not give me an excuse to say "I was born this way, therefore I will stay drunk the rest of my life". Neither should a homosexual say because they were born that way they should continue in that lifestyle.

No--according to 1 Corinthians 6 drunkards will not inherit the Kingdom of God---and neither will homosexuals. Scripture says this, not me. Homosexuality is not the great sin---but it is a sin that if habitually continued in will keep you from the truth, and keep you from Heaven---just as alcoholism will if you do not deny it, and allow the Spirit of God to control your life.

Soory Jesus said it was His GRACE that saves not your drunkardness or soberness.
This is Grace Forums and it centers around GRACE and not works nor Paul's holiness doctrines that violate what JESUS Said and His GRACE.

We shall start a new TOPIC as obviously people get terribly confused and into law and works and holiness rather than the Lord and His Grace and His LOVE

: Nevertheless  Fri Dec 20, 2013 - 23:04:35
David, is English your first language?

Again, as a University Science graduate, I put principles above semantics. Whereas semenaries of the church system that study in whited cemeteries as the Lord said, study words and word dissection and how to wrangle them into a semantic easy to listen to popular money making machine. I prefer truths and laws and principles and math and missionary work on the field.

: Davidjayjordan  Sat Dec 21, 2013 - 09:47:23

: fish153  Fri Dec 20, 2013 - 19:26:36
"Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error". (Romans 1)

"Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.  And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God". (1 Cor. 6:9-11)

Please note the above verses.  I do not hate homosexuals, nor do I hate alcoholics.  I am an alcoholic---I have not had a drink for seven years.  I believe alcoholism is hereditary, but it does not give me an excuse to say "I was born this way, therefore I will stay drunk the rest of my life". Neither should a homosexual say because they were born that way they should continue in that lifestyle.

No--according to 1 Corinthians 6 drunkards will not inherit the Kingdom of God---and neither will homosexuals. Scripture says this, not me. Homosexuality is not the great sin---but it is a sin that if habitually continued in will keep you from the truth, and keep you from Heaven---just as alcoholism will if you do not deny it, and allow the Spirit of God to control your life.

Soory Jesus said it was His GRACE that saves not your drunkardness or soberness.
This is Grace Forums and it centers around GRACE and not works nor Paul's holiness doctrines that violate what JESUS Said and His GRACE.

We shall start a new TOPIC as obviously people get terribly confused and into law and works and holiness rather than the Lord and His Grace and His LOVE

Fish said nothing to warrant this rebuttal.

: Davidjayjordan  Sat Dec 21, 2013 - 09:51:41

: Nevertheless  Fri Dec 20, 2013 - 23:04:35
David, is English your first language?

Again, as a University Science graduate, I put principles above semantics. Whereas semenaries of the church system that study in whited cemeteries as the Lord said, study words and word dissection and how to wrangle them into a semantic easy to listen to popular money making machine. I prefer truths and laws and principles and math and missionary work on the field.

Yes, but is that an answer to Never's very simple question?

I have made it a rule, never to answer you MeMyself.

But to answer, Nevertheless's personal question in trying to excuse discussing an objective topic that the objectors are objecting to.

Yes, I am Canadian and my first language is English. But then I have been on the mission field for so many years, I have a lot of other languages mixed in there as well.

But I hated semantics (SEE Semantics Topic) word twisting and yet had to take five English courses in University to obtain my degree. This degree I never used, because I became a missionary for Jesus.

So now Nevertheless have you ever taken logic before. Can you do simple math, please answer my simple question.

You mean not one of you has looked up the city of the End Time called Sodom  You mean none of you are researchers ? Or are you afraid of what you find and can not explain it according to your indocrination in holiness ?

We await your response, or your silence is deafening and indicative of a much greater problem

: Davidjayjordan  Sat Dec 21, 2013 - 10:53:14
You mean not one of you has looked up the city of the End Time called Sodom  You mean none of you are researchers ? Or are you afraid of what you find and can not explain it according to your indocrination in holiness ?

We await your response, or your silence is deafening and indicative of a much greater problem

Maybe we are waiting for you to answer the much more simple question of whether or not you agree with God that sex between 2 men is an abomination. Its simple, yes or no.

OK, you aren't much into researching your topic, but allow me to ask you another question, because of one of the ild answers HERE on this thread.

But please go to this thread rather than answering HERE. Remember to always stick to the topic. This one is the racism of Sodom, Capernaum and J**********
Come on you can do it. Read brethren and non brethren READ

( http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/apologetics-forum/holiness-or-grace-can-a-thief-go-to-heaven/ (http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/apologetics-forum/holiness-or-grace-can-a-thief-go-to-heaven/) )

**************************

Sadly a poster, used this sad verse of THUS SAITH PAUL to elevate themselves above their past lifestyle.... into a new sinless saint status.....

1 Corinthians

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

This from the infamous book (1 Corinthians) of Paul where he made up new rules and laws for salvation away from Grace and into Holiness. Thereby giving readers of his book or books the opportunity to turn from Grace to the Law and into Holiness.

Remember Jesus is the final authority, RED LETTER, THUS SAITH THE LORD words from JESUS and His PROPHETS are suppose to establish our PRINCIPLES, so is it Grace or is it WORKS

Is it Grace or is it Law

Is it Grace or is it Holiness

Is it Grace or is it Self Righteousness ?

Can a theif go to heaven ?

You can answer this if you know Jesus or know his life and death ?

This is very important, is it Grace and Jesus Righteousness or is it your own righteousness and supposed new saintlessness and sinless state ?

Back to Soom and Capernaum and Je*********

You can do this ........... even though it is like pulling teeth.

Try reading the last BOOK OF THUS SAITH THE LORD.

Still waiting. is an easy answer, yes or no. Do you agree with God or disagree?.

In the end what does it matter which sin of the many that they were committing that made God destroy them. Often once we allow ourselves to get into a sinful life style, we just go down and more sins follow. Having sex with other men was one of their sins. They were depraved basically.

"Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.  And that is what some of you WERE. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God". (1 Cor. 6:9-11)

I will post the verse again so that we can see that the verse says "and such WERE some of you"---Grace should change us. We will always have our weaknesses and failings---but we will not live habitually as a homosexual, or thief, or greedy, or drunkard, or as a slanderer or swindler. Can a thief go to Heaven? Of course----but if they believe they are "saved" and continue to steal day after day they show they were never changed by Grace and are not on their way to Heaven. And the same can be said of all those listed above---if they continue to live habitually as drunkards or homosexuals then they have not been changed by Grace.  The Bible is quite clear about that.  That is why 1 Corinthians 6 starts out by saying "do not be deceived.."

Can I repost your thoughts on the thread Fish ?

The rules say I can;t unless I get your permission, people there are afraid to respond and choose.

So Fish are you now a sinless saint. Do you ever repeatedly commit sin. Have you had a sinless day yet ? Do you obey every law, and which laws are the ones you keep ?

Fish, is it Grace or is it Works and Self Righteousness or new found Holiness ?

Do you give yourself credit for your new status, or are you still a dirty rotten sinner saved ONLY by the Grace of God ?

Does Jesus now show you even more than ever before how truly a sinner you are. Or are you better than others a whole lot more now than ever before ?

Has your righteousness increased ?

Simple basic questions, but lets do transpose them onto the right thread and right topic. Excellent job though in bringing up this subject about Grace.

Lets now discuss it on that thread and leave this one to Racism and the hatred some people get for other people and strangers.

: Davidjayjordan  Sat Dec 21, 2013 - 12:25:59
Can I repost your thoughts on the thread Fish ?

The rules say I can;t unless I get your permission, people there are afraid to respond and choose.

So Fish are you now a sinless saint. Do you ever repeatedly commit sin. Have you had a sinless day yet ? Do you obey every law, and which laws are the ones you keep ?

Fish, is it Grace or is it Works and Self Righteousness or new found Holiness ?

Do you give yourself credit for your new status, or are you still a dirty rotten sinner saved ONLY by the Grace of God ?

Does Jesus now show you even more than ever before how truly a sinner you are. Or are you better than others a whole lot more now than ever before ?

Has your righteousness increased ?

Simple basic questions, but lets do transpose them onto the right thread and right topic. Excellent job though in bringing up this subject about Grace.

Lets now discuss it on that thread and leave this one to Racism and the hatred some people get for other people and strangers.

Again, I am completely saved by Grace.  But I do not live habitually in sin. I am an alcoholic, but I do not continue to habitually get drunk daily. I do not defend my right to sin as you appear to be doing.  If you are defending your right to continue in homosexual sin then Grace has not truly touched your heart.

The thief once saved does not CONTINUE to be a thief.  The drunkard saved by Grace does not CONTINUE to defend his right to get drunk.  The homosexual saved by Grace does not CONTINUE a habitual life of sin.  This is what 1 Corinthians 6 is saying.  We are all sinners---we all fail---and we will all continue to fail.  But if our attitude is defending what the Bible calls sin---then the Holy Spirit is not working in us---it is that simple.

Amen, Fish!

: chosenone  Sat Dec 21, 2013 - 11:07:17

: Davidjayjordan  Sat Dec 21, 2013 - 10:53:14
You mean not one of you has looked up the city of the End Time called Sodom  You mean none of you are researchers ? Or are you afraid of what you find and can not explain it according to your indocrination in holiness ?

We await your response, or your silence is deafening and indicative of a much greater problem

Maybe we are waiting for you to answer the much more simple question of whether or not you agree with God that sex between 2 men is an abomination. Its simple, yes or no.

yup...

Hope you continue to post according to your theology of a combination of Grace and Holiness... on the other thread.

Back to this topic of Racism and Hatred by those of Sodom and Capernaum and Jerusalem

Revelation 11

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

This is not about those in Jersualem being homosexuals but about the hate in their heart for the two Christian prophets. They party after they kill them and mock and absue their bodies on the steps of the 3rd Temple. Jerusalem is called Sodom

: Davidjayjordan  Sat Dec 21, 2013 - 10:44:45
I have made it a rule, never to answer you MeMyself.

But to answer, Nevertheless's personal question in trying to excuse discussing an objective topic that the objectors are objecting to.

Yes, I am Canadian and my first language is English. But then I have been on the mission field for so many years, I have a lot of other languages mixed in there as well.

But I hated semantics (SEE Semantics Topic) word twisting and yet had to take five English courses in University to obtain my degree. This degree I never used, because I became a missionary for Jesus.

So now Nevertheless have you ever taken logic before. Can you do simple math, please answer my simple question.

Actually my motivation for asking was to give you the benefit of the doubt. I thought that if English was not your native language it would explain why you seem to have so much trouble comprehending and responding to others' posts. Sadly, we must look elsewhere for an explanation.


My answers to the two questions you asked of me are yes and yes. My turn.


Did you know that 1+1 can = 3?

This whole discussion has become about nothing and is going nowhere.

: Davidjayjordan  Sat Dec 21, 2013 - 18:26:22
Hope you continue to post according to your theology of a combination of Grace and Holiness... on the other thread.

Back to this topic of Racism and Hatred by those of Sodom and Capernaum and Jerusalem

Revelation 11

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

This is not about those in Jersualem being homosexuals but about the hate in their heart for the two Christian prophets. They party after they kill them and mock and absue their bodies on the steps of the 3rd Temple. Jerusalem is called Sodom

So you don't agree that sex between 2 men is an abomination?

Jeruslaem is not called Sodom because of homosexual practises there, but because of its hatred for strangers. Jerusalem occupied by the AC and the AC forces of all the world, then converts all to their all emcompassing religion of all religions, including of course the Jews, then declares war on all people that do not take their MARK of the Beast.

And as you know the devil hates, Jesus is Love, God is love, the AC is hate incarnate. Hate is the great abomination..... not sex. But do start that thread, on sexual lifestyle and why it is so abominable. You're a moderator, you have latitudes we normal posters would not have. Be brave and start a new thread. Its what you are so concerned about, so do it.

: Davidjayjordan  Mon Dec 23, 2013 - 11:35:29
Jeruslaem is not called Sodom because of homosexual practises there, but because of its hatred for strangers. Jerusalem occupied by the AC and the AC forces of all the world, then converts all to their all emcompassing religion of all religions, including of course the Jews, then declares war on all people that do not take their MARK of the Beast.

And as you know the devil hates, Jesus is Love, God is love, the AC is hate incarnate. Hate is the great abomination..... not sex. But do start that thread, on sexual lifestyle and why it is so abominable. You're a moderator, you have latitudes we normal posters would not have. Be brave and start a new thread. Its what you are so concerned about, so do it.

Why don't you ever just answer questions put before you? What are you wishing to hide?

The Word of God is clear that there are acceptable ways for us to behave sexually.  You act as if God just winks at sin...He does not, and He will not be mocked! Our sin cost Christ everything and we should not shake our fist in His face by disobeying the Word of God on how we should live.

Hate is the great abomination?  Wow....have you never read:

The arrogant cannot stand in your presence; you hate all who do wrong.
You destroy those who tell lies;
bloodthirsty and deceitful men the LORD abhors.
Psalm 5

I hate those who trust in worthless idols;
I trust in the LORD.
Psalm 31

You love righteousness and hate wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.
Psalm 45

Let those who love the LORD hate evil,
for he guards the lives of his faithful ones
and delivers them from the hand of the wicked.
Psalm 97

I hate double-minded men, but I love your law
...and because I consider all your precepts right
I hate every wrong path.
...I hate and abhor falsehood
but I love your law.
Psalm 119

I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence;
I possess knowledge and discretion.
To fear the LORD is to hate evil;
I hate pride and arrogance,
evil behavior and perverse speech.
Proverbs 8

The righteous hate what is false,
but the wicked bring shame and disgrace.
Proverbs 13

"For I, the LORD, love justice; I hate robbery and iniquity.
Isaiah 61

"Since you did not hate bloodshed, bloodshed will pursue you. 
Ezekiel 35

Hate evil, love good;
maintain justice in the courts
Amos 5

There are many, many more verses literally commanding us to hate what is evil and saying that the Lord does, also  There are also people He hates, as the first quote indicates. 

In the meantime, Jerusalem hates strangers?  Hardly!  It is a truly international city (although some of the residents hate each other!) and was the center of international trade routes for thousands of years. 

: Davidjayjordan  Mon Dec 23, 2013 - 11:35:29
Jeruslaem is not called Sodom because of homosexual practises there, but because of its hatred for strangers. Jerusalem occupied by the AC and the AC forces of all the world, then converts all to their all emcompassing religion of all religions, including of course the Jews, then declares war on all people that do not take their MARK of the Beast.

And as you know the devil hates, Jesus is Love, God is love, the AC is hate incarnate. Hate is the great abomination..... not sex. But do start that thread, on sexual lifestyle and why it is so abominable. You're a moderator, you have latitudes we normal posters would not have. Be brave and start a new thread. Its what you are so concerned about, so do it.

Gods calls homosexual behaviour an abomination, so take it up with him if you don't like it. You seem to think its ok for a man to have sex with another man when God clearly says it is anything but Ok. its very damaging for those men doing it, and for society as a a whole.

Sexual sins are a sin against our own bodies, and there will always be bad consequences if you sin that way. We have a close Christian friend who is gay, and he has far more awareness than you of how very wrong it is. He KNOWS it is wrong. 

Again you keep going on about hate. I hate no one, and no one here has been hateful towards gays. if I hated gays I wouldnt have a gay friend who is like a brother to us, but we are here on a CHRISTIAN forum, and we must be able to say what is right or wrong without being accused of things we haven't done by you or anyone else.  We only repeat what the Bible says, but the word of God is clear on what we are to do and not do sexually.

: Helen  Mon Dec 23, 2013 - 12:14:53
Hate is the great abomination?  Wow....have you never read:

The arrogant cannot stand in your presence; you hate all who do wrong.
You destroy those who tell lies;
bloodthirsty and deceitful men the LORD abhors.
Psalm 5

I hate those who trust in worthless idols;
I trust in the LORD.
Psalm 31

You love righteousness and hate wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.
Psalm 45

Let those who love the LORD hate evil,
for he guards the lives of his faithful ones
and delivers them from the hand of the wicked.
Psalm 97

I hate double-minded men, but I love your law
...and because I consider all your precepts right
I hate every wrong path.
...I hate and abhor falsehood
but I love your law.
Psalm 119

I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence;
I possess knowledge and discretion.
To fear the LORD is to hate evil;
I hate pride and arrogance,
evil behavior and perverse speech.
Proverbs 8

The righteous hate what is false,
but the wicked bring shame and disgrace.
Proverbs 13

"For I, the LORD, love justice; I hate robbery and iniquity.
Isaiah 61

"Since you did not hate bloodshed, bloodshed will pursue you. 
Ezekiel 35

Hate evil, love good;
maintain justice in the courts
Amos 5

There are many, many more verses literally commanding us to hate what is evil and saying that the Lord does, also  There are also people He hates, as the first quote indicates. 

In the meantime, Jerusalem hates strangers?  Hardly!  It is a truly international city (although some of the residents hate each other!) and was the center of international trade routes for thousands of years.

Then why did the Lord call Jerusalem Sodom, because it is an international city... hardly ? Try another ploy.

As for hating evil, Yes hate those that use hate to abuse and make war on others, to steal their goods and resources and take their people. Hate materialism and pride, and theifery, and killing.... but don;t label all citizens of a country as evil, and then encourage warfare against them to take their goods etc etc etc...

Jesus said to LOVE and not hate, but to love you have to yield to His Spirit of LOVE.

David, you scatter red herrings like confetti.

: Helen  Mon Dec 23, 2013 - 17:27:04
David, you scatter red herrings like confetti.

::nodding::

: Davidjayjordan  Mon Dec 23, 2013 - 16:15:38

: Helen  Mon Dec 23, 2013 - 12:14:53
Hate is the great abomination?  Wow....have you never read:

The arrogant cannot stand in your presence; you hate all who do wrong.
You destroy those who tell lies;
bloodthirsty and deceitful men the LORD abhors.
Psalm 5

I hate those who trust in worthless idols;
I trust in the LORD.
Psalm 31

You love righteousness and hate wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.
Psalm 45

Let those who love the LORD hate evil,
for he guards the lives of his faithful ones
and delivers them from the hand of the wicked.
Psalm 97

I hate double-minded men, but I love your law
...and because I consider all your precepts right
I hate every wrong path.
...I hate and abhor falsehood
but I love your law.
Psalm 119

I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence;
I possess knowledge and discretion.
To fear the LORD is to hate evil;
I hate pride and arrogance,
evil behavior and perverse speech.
Proverbs 8

The righteous hate what is false,
but the wicked bring shame and disgrace.
Proverbs 13

"For I, the LORD, love justice; I hate robbery and iniquity.
Isaiah 61

"Since you did not hate bloodshed, bloodshed will pursue you. 
Ezekiel 35

Hate evil, love good;
maintain justice in the courts
Amos 5

There are many, many more verses literally commanding us to hate what is evil and saying that the Lord does, also  There are also people He hates, as the first quote indicates. 

In the meantime, Jerusalem hates strangers?  Hardly!  It is a truly international city (although some of the residents hate each other!) and was the center of international trade routes for thousands of years.

Then why did the Lord call Jerusalem Sodom, because it is an international city... hardly ? Try another ploy.

As for hating evil, Yes hate those that use hate to abuse and make war on others, to steal their goods and resources and take their people. Hate materialism and pride, and theifery, and killing.... but don;t label all citizens of a country as evil, and then encourage warfare against them to take their goods etc etc etc...

Jesus said to LOVE and not hate, but to love you have to yield to His Spirit of LOVE.

We are to hate the sin. We are to hate sin that leads people to hell and ruins their lives. 

Love isn't wishy washy David, its strong and sure and true.
When Jesus was bought the lady who had committed adultery, He didn't say its ok, go and do it again as much as you like, its not that bad really.
He said go and sin no more. If we allow people to think that living a sinful lifestyle isn't that bad, we are lying to them.

: Davidjayjordan  Sat Dec 21, 2013 - 18:26:22Back to this topic of Racism and Hatred by those of Sodom and Capernaum and Jerusalem

Revelation 11.7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

This is not about those in Jerusalem being homosexuals but about the hate in their heart for the two Christian prophets. They party after they kill them and mock and abuse their bodies on the steps of the 3rd Temple. Jerusalem is called Sodom

I thought that was the passage you are referencing.  I take it as an indictment against the islamic forces that now occupy the city. Sodom being indicative of spiritual perversion (islam) and Egypt being indicative of bondage and slavery.

Yes, your interpretation gives you your nationalistic fornication of church and state, or beast with the people love making, but you of course blame Islam rather than all religions.

All religions love materialism, all religions shall take the MARK of the Beast,

Read Revelations etc etc etc etc etc....

All people will take the MARK except those that have faith to survive or die. Death doesn;t make real Christians afraid as to live is Christ and to die is gain. Besides they have already given up everything for the Lord. They were not arm chair, critics and semantic theologians

19 The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 "My lords," he said, "please turn aside to your servant's house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning."

"No," they answered, "we will spend the night in the square."

3 But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. 4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."

6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing. 8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof."

9 "Get out of our way," they replied. "This fellow came here as a foreigner, and now he wants to play the judge! We'll treat you worse than them." They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.

10 But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door. 11 Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door.  Gen 19

They are right David. There were many wicked sins in these cities, but none worse than sodomy. They even tried to have sex with the angels that came to destroy the city.

: Davidjayjordan  Mon Dec 23, 2013 - 16:15:38
Then why did the Lord call Jerusalem Sodom,

That, sir, is a mystery.  Apparently there will come something in Jerusalem that resembles the Sodom of Genesis and the Egypt of Exodus. We do not know what that is.

The sins of the ancient city of Sodom were homosexuality and they did not use their abundance to help the poor:

Ezekiel 16:49 (NASB)   Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy.

If you are trying to draw conclusions about some future sins of Jerusalem, perhaps you should look at that verse.

: DaveW  Mon Jan 06, 2014 - 05:48:24
The sins of the ancient city of Sodom were homosexuality and they did not use their abundance to help the poor:

Ezekiel 16:49 (NASB)   Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy.

Hi Dave,

The sin of Sodom wasn't homosexuality, it was prostituting themselves to angels. The "strange flesh" they are said to have exposed themselves before is from the greek "heteras sarkos".  It's ironic to me that the very word (strange) that most scholars use as their "prooftext" of sodomite homosexuality is literally translated "hetero" as in "heterosexual" lol.  Hetero just means "different", so the proper, literal translation of the phrase "going after strange flesh" is "going after different flesh"

Jude1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange (G2087) flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

G2087  heteros  het'-er-os
of uncertain affinity;
(an-, the) other or different.
KJV: altered, else, next (day), one, (an-)other, some, strange.

If you are seeking "different flesh" you aren't seeking the flesh of other men (or women) because all men and woman are the same flesh.  1 Corinthians 15:39,40 lists the different types of flesh. 4 different types of terrestrial (earthly) flesh, and 1 celestial (heavenly) type.  But clearly says that the flesh of men is all of the same type. Therefore if you were desiring a "[hetero] different (strange) flesh" that type of flesh couldn't be found among other human beings, men or women. You would be desiring the flesh of beasts, fishes, birds, or celestial creatures limiting yourself to Paul's definitions of the various types of living flesh available.

1 Corinthians 15:39
All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another

Desiring sex with other human beings, heterosexual or homosexual, is not an option in Jude 1:7.  I'm not trying to advance a pro-homosexual viewpoint or anything, just trying to stay true to what is written.  Homosexuality is definitely a sin and an abomination before God.  But the Sodomites were doing something that was apparently even worse and more abominable than that even! Something so bad a new word had to be invented for it ekporneuo!  Which from a study of it's root words would mean something like "over and above prostitution" or "ultra prostitution".

Jude1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication G1608 ekporneuo, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Cathead - you completely ignored Ezekiel 16:4

: CatHead  Mon Mar 24, 2014 - 23:32:12

The sin of Sodom wasn't homosexuality, it was prostituting themselves to angels. 

How can that be true if the angels had not even been there yet when they came down to investigate?

Gen 18.20 And the Lord said, "Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave,
21 I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know."
22 Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the Lord.

The angels had not been there yet, so what was the outcry and the grave sin?

Hi Dave,

: DaveW  Tue Mar 25, 2014 - 05:29:45
Cathead - you completely ignored Ezekiel 16:4

Ezekiel 16:49,50 does plainly list the sins of Sodom, but doesn't elaborate upon the sexual sinfulness outlined in Jude 1:7.  I understand that the scope of Sodom's sinfulness was beyond sexual perversion (pride, arrogance, in-hospitality, gluttony etc).  Ezekiel doesn't elaborate on what the sexual sin of Sodom was though, just generically calls it "abominations" which could be anything.  So yes, I did ignore it because there isn't any insight into the sexual sin of Sodom in Ezekiel that I can see.

: DaveW  Tue Mar 25, 2014 - 06:40:11

: CatHead  Mon Mar 24, 2014 - 23:32:12

The sin of Sodom wasn't homosexuality, it was prostituting themselves to angels. 

How can that be true if the angels had not even been there yet when they came down to investigate?

Gen 18.20 And the Lord said, "Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave,
21 I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know."
22 Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the Lord.

The angels had not been there yet, so what was the outcry and the grave sin?

Yes, excellent point.  The angels that visited Lot came to destroy the city for their sins not judge it.  Sodom was judged already prior to their visitation, which makes Jude 1:7 even more intriguing.  The actions of the crowd in front of Lot's house didn't factor into Sodom's judgement.  So yes, Jude 1:7 requires there to be other angels in Sodom prior to Gen 19 for the Sodomites to lust after.  Jude 1:6 makes allowance for that.

 

So yes, Jude 1:7 requires there to be other angels in Sodom prior to Gen 19 for the Sodomites to lust after. 

That is pure conjecture.  While it may have been possible, there is no hint that it ever happened. It is NEVER a good idea to base a doctrine on something that might have been.

Hi Dave,

: DaveW  Wed Mar 26, 2014 - 06:00:45

So yes, Jude 1:7 requires there to be other angels in Sodom prior to Gen 19 for the Sodomites to lust after. 

That is pure conjecture.  While it may have been possible, there is no hint that it ever happened. It is NEVER a good idea to base a doctrine on something that might have been.

Nah, not really conjecture. It is plainly written in scripture that the Sodomites were taken in their lusts for evil spirits and fallen angels, and for this reason they were judged.  Obfuscated by poor translation to be sure, but nevertheless it's there.  The "grave sinners" of 2peter2:10 that God reserves in judgement firstly, weren't those that were dissatisfied with their government lol. If that were the case alot of us would be in trouble ::lookaround::

2Pe 2:10  But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.


The emboldened part of 2Peter 2:10 is the part that plainly says that the Sodomites lusted after unclean spirits and angels.  Doesn't look like much right now, but a minimal amount of research and word study makes it come to life. 

This verse is really hacked up by translators imo.  A word for word translation from the greek helps see how badly the sentence structure has been damaged by translators...

2 Peter 2:10a malista(especially) de(but) tous(the ones) opiso(behind) sarkos(flesh) en(in) epithumia(lust) miasmou(foul air) poruomenous(traveling, wandering) kai(and) kuriotetos(lords, powers) kataphronountas(disesteemed, disfavored)....

..."but especially the ones behind flesh lusting(after) wandering miasma and disfavored lords..."

and there you have it....a simple statement of the Sodomites "grave" sexual sin.  The Sodomites(the ones behind flesh) lusting after "wandering miasma" (unclean spirits) and "disfavored lords" (fallen angels)

"miasmous" is the heavy, foul air that becomes present when a body decays.  It can be, and is, used in scripture to simply mean "corruption" but it's etymological origin is as I said.  It is a descriptor of the corrupted air, not the dead, corrupted body.  Miasma is still in use today in the English language and is used to mean pollution, or swamp gas, or any corrupted air.  Miasmou is a term that is interchangeable with "unclean spirit" imo because they mean exactly the same thing.  Miasmou literally meaning "foul air", unclean spirit literally meaning "foul air" akathartos[foul](g169) pneuma[air](g4151)

g169 akathartos
ak-ath'-ar-tos
From G1 (as a negative particle) and a presumed derivative of G2508 (meaning cleansed); impure (ceremonially, morally (lewd) or specifically (demonic)): - foul, unclean.

g4151 pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.

Add to the evidence that the "miasmou" are said to be traveling, or wandering in 2peter2:10 (miasmou poruomenous[g4198]) exactly the behavior of unclean spirits described by Christ in Matthew 12:43, and it becomes clear to me that the author of 2Peter is describing an unclean spirit that is the focus of the Sodomite lust....

Mat 12:43  When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.

g4198 poreuomai
por-yoo'-om-ahee
Middle voice from a derivative of the same as G3984; to traverse, that is, travel (literally or figuratively; especially to remove [figuratively die], live, etc.): - depart, go (away, forth, one's way, up), (make a, take a) journey, walk.

Bad exegesis on 2 Peter 2.  I do not see v10 as talking about the men of Sodom but the contemporaries of the original audience. Yes, the apostle uses Noah and Lot as examples, but the are examples to be applied to how someone lives NOW.

Hi Dave,

: DaveW  Thu Mar 27, 2014 - 05:53:52
Bad exegesis on 2 Peter 2.  I do not see v10 as talking about the men of Sodom but the contemporaries of the original audience. Yes, the apostle uses Noah and Lot as examples, but the are examples to be applied to how someone lives NOW.

Thank you very much for your thoughtful response.  Wow 6 minutes!  You digest scripture very quickly! [/sarcasm]

Yes I would suggest that we apply this teaching to ourselves as well and don't lust after demons and fallen angels like the Sodomites did  ;)

CatHead said---


>>>>The sin of Sodom wasn't homosexuality, it was prostituting themselves to angels<<<

Come on.

"Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error". (Romans 1:26, 27)

Your argument is actually quite foolish.  The Bible also says drunkards shall not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.  I am an alcoholic--and believe I was BORN with that propensity---however I haven't had a drink for years.  Imagine if I tried to make the argument that it really isn't really drunkeness that is the sin, but what I do while I'm drunk. So I begin defending drunkeness itself and stating that the Bible is not condemning it, but is instead condemning some drunkards for actions they take.

This is what you are doing. The Bible clearly condemns homosexuality (just as it does drunkeness) and we get the word "sodomy" from the city called Sodom. Romans 1 clearly shows that homosexuality is a perversion---and the people of Sodom were so perverted that they would gather outside a man's house and demand he bring out his visitors so they could have sex with them. The sin of Sodom is crystal clear----don't try to defend it.  I cannot defend my alcoholism even though I was BORN with it--I must repent and admit that what the Bible calls "sin" is sin.

Hi Fish,

: fish153  Thu Mar 27, 2014 - 21:41:01
CatHead said---


>>>>The sin of Sodom wasn't homosexuality, it was prostituting themselves to angels<<<

Come on.

"Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error". (Romans 1:26, 27)

Romans 1 doesn't have anything to do with this discussion because none of the sins that are mentioned are attributed to the Sodomites specifically.  It gives no insight into the 'grave sin' of Sodom that I can see.

: fish153  Thu Mar 27, 2014 - 21:41:01
Your argument is actually quite foolish.

That's a bit harsh wouldn't you say?  And unfair considering you haven't even read my argument.  Because if you had you would see that I said that I'm not trying to defend homosexuality, just trying to defend the integrity of the word.....refer to my wasted keystrokes below

: CatHead  Mon Mar 24, 2014 - 23:32:12
Desiring sex with other human beings, heterosexual or homosexual, is not an option in Jude 1:7.  I'm not trying to advance a pro-homosexual viewpoint or anything, just trying to stay true to what is written.  Homosexuality is definitely a sin and an abomination before God.  But the Sodomites were doing something that was apparently even worse and more abominable than that even! Something so bad a new word had to be invented for it ekporneuo!  Which from a study of it's root words would mean something like "over and above prostitution" or "ultra prostitution".

: fish153  Thu Mar 27, 2014 - 21:41:01
  The Bible also says drunkards shall not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.  I am an alcoholic--and believe I was BORN with that propensity---however I haven't had a drink for years.  Imagine if I tried to make the argument that it really isn't really drunkeness that is the sin, but what I do while I'm drunk. So I begin defending drunkeness itself and stating that the Bible is not condemning it, but is instead condemning some drunkards for actions they take.

Good luck with your struggles brother!

: fish153  Thu Mar 27, 2014 - 21:41:01
This is what you are doing. The Bible clearly condemns homosexuality (just as it does drunkeness) and we get the word "sodomy" from the city called Sodom. Romans 1 clearly shows that homosexuality is a perversion---and the people of Sodom were so perverted that they would gather outside a man's house and demand he bring out his visitors so they could have sex with them. The sin of Sodom is crystal clear----don't try to defend it.  I cannot defend my alcoholism even though I was BORN with it--I must repent and admit that what the Bible calls "sin" is sin.

Well no, that's not even close to what I'm doing.  If you are gonna troll and bash posters on this forum you should at least extend them the courtesy of familiarizing yourself with what they say instead of just reading the first sentence of their post and making an assumption about the rest of it...I really hope this is not how you study scripture and formulate doctrine!

It is not possible that the crowd of Sodomites in front of Lot's house were experiencing homosexual lust, because the objects of their lust were not men, they were angels.  Even if the Sodomites were ignorant of the fact that they were angels and thought they were men (which we are not told that is the case) their lust would not be homosexual.  If a man is attracted to what he thinks is another man, but is in fact a transsexual woman pretending to be a man, his lust is in reality heterosexual.  Even though he may think his lust is homosexual, it's not, because the object of his lust is in reality a woman. 

The scene in front of Lot's house occurred after Sodom was judged by God and didn't factor into God's judgement.  Yes, their behavior in Genesis19 may be a good indicator of their past behavior, and the reason for their judgement.  But you cannot say with any certainty that they lusted after the visitors to Lot's house because they were men, or because they knew they were angels.  We aren't told if the Sodomites knew if the men were really angels or not.  If their past behavior was to lust after angels, and they knew these visitors were angels, and that's the reason they lusted after them....then there is harmony with Jude 1:7.  If they lusted after the visitors because they thought they were men, then this behavior is in direct conflict with Jude 1:7.

: CatHead  Fri Mar 28, 2014 - 08:11:17
Hi Fish,

: fish153  Thu Mar 27, 2014 - 21:41:01
CatHead said---


>>>>The sin of Sodom wasn't homosexuality, it was prostituting themselves to angels<<<

Come on.

"Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error". (Romans 1:26, 27)

Romans 1 doesn't have anything to do with this discussion because none of the sins that are mentioned are attributed to the Sodomites specifically.  It gives no insight into the 'grave sin' of Sodom that I can see.

: fish153  Thu Mar 27, 2014 - 21:41:01
Your argument is actually quite foolish.

That's a bit harsh wouldn't you say?  And unfair considering you haven't even read my argument.  Because if you had you would see that I said that I'm not trying to defend homosexuality, just trying to defend the integrity of the word.....refer to my wasted keystrokes below

: CatHead  Mon Mar 24, 2014 - 23:32:12
Desiring sex with other human beings, heterosexual or homosexual, is not an option in Jude 1:7.  I'm not trying to advance a pro-homosexual viewpoint or anything, just trying to stay true to what is written.  Homosexuality is definitely a sin and an abomination before God.  But the Sodomites were doing something that was apparently even worse and more abominable than that even! Something so bad a new word had to be invented for it ekporneuo!  Which from a study of it's root words would mean something like "over and above prostitution" or "ultra prostitution".

: fish153  Thu Mar 27, 2014 - 21:41:01
  The Bible also says drunkards shall not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.  I am an alcoholic--and believe I was BORN with that propensity---however I haven't had a drink for years.  Imagine if I tried to make the argument that it really isn't really drunkeness that is the sin, but what I do while I'm drunk. So I begin defending drunkeness itself and stating that the Bible is not condemning it, but is instead condemning some drunkards for actions they take.

Good luck with your struggles brother!

: fish153  Thu Mar 27, 2014 - 21:41:01
This is what you are doing. The Bible clearly condemns homosexuality (just as it does drunkeness) and we get the word "sodomy" from the city called Sodom. Romans 1 clearly shows that homosexuality is a perversion---and the people of Sodom were so perverted that they would gather outside a man's house and demand he bring out his visitors so they could have sex with them. The sin of Sodom is crystal clear----don't try to defend it.  I cannot defend my alcoholism even though I was BORN with it--I must repent and admit that what the Bible calls "sin" is sin.

Well no, that's not even close to what I'm doing.  If you are gonna troll and bash posters on this forum you should at least extend them the courtesy of familiarizing yourself with what they say instead of just reading the first sentence of their post and making an assumption about the rest of it...I really hope this is not how you study scripture and formulate doctrine!

It is not possible that the crowd of Sodomites in front of Lot's house were experiencing homosexual lust, because the objects of their lust were not men, they were angels.  Even if the Sodomites were ignorant of the fact that they were angels and thought they were men (which we are not told that is the case) their lust would not be homosexual.  If a man is attracted to what he thinks is another man, but is in fact a transsexual woman pretending to be a man, his lust is in reality heterosexual.  Even though he may think his lust is homosexual, it's not, because the object of his lust is in reality a woman. 

The scene in front of Lot's house occurred after Sodom was judged by God and didn't factor into God's judgement.  Yes, their behavior in Genesis19 may be a good indicator of their past behavior, and the reason for their judgement.  But you cannot say with any certainty that they lusted after the visitors to Lot's house because they were men, or because they knew they were angels.  We aren't told if the Sodomites knew if the men were really angels or not.  If their past behavior was to lust after angels, and they knew these visitors were angels, and that's the reason they lusted after them....then there is harmony with Jude 1:7.  If they lusted after the visitors because they thought they were men, then this behavior is in direct conflict with Jude 1:7.

I fear you are off in many ways:

A) God had not judged Sodom yet prior to the angels actually going there.
What you see in Genesis 18 is God telling Abraham that He was going to check things out. But if what was said about the city was true, God would destroy it.
You also see that Abraham influences Gods decision and lowers the level for destruction.

B) The men in Sodom didn't know the strangers were angels. Here is how they address them:
Gen 19:5 "Where are the men which came in to thee this night?"
Gen 19:8 " only unto these men do nothing"
The Hebrew word used here is for mortal men, male persons. Its indiscriminately used for "men of Sodom", the "man" Lot and the "men" that visited Lot.
The word for angel can be found in Gen 19:1.

You could say that Sodom confirmed the rumors that were going around about it, and in that sense Sodom condemned itself.

Hi AVZ,

: AVZ  Fri Mar 28, 2014 - 10:04:42
I fear you are off in many ways:

A) God had not judged Sodom yet prior to the angels actually going there.
What you see in Genesis 18 is God telling Abraham that He was going to check things out. But if what was said about the city was true, God would destroy it.
You also see that Abraham influences Gods decision and lowers the level for destruction.

Possibly, but that isn't the way I see it.  The Lord didn't accompany the 2 angels to Sodom, he only came as far as Abraham's camp and then returned after his visit with Abraham. He didn't go himself to the city to 'check things out'. The statement of the angels in Genesis 19:13 is that 'the Lord had sent them to destroy the city'. So considering Abraham's camp was the last place the Lord and the two angels were together, that would be from where they were sent to destroy the city, and that was from where the Lord made the decision to destroy the city.

: AVZ  Fri Mar 28, 2014 - 10:04:42
B) The men in Sodom didn't know the strangers were angels. Here is how they address them:
Gen 19:5 "Where are the men which came in to thee this night?"
Gen 19:8 " only unto these men do nothing"
The Hebrew word used here is for mortal men, male persons. Its indiscriminately used for "men of Sodom", the "man" Lot and the "men" that visited Lot.
The word for angel can be found in Gen 19:1.

It seems quite proper to refer to angels as iysh (men) even if you know they are angels.  The author himself does this in Genesis 19, referring to them as ma'lak in vs.1 and then back to calling them iysh in vs.10.  Other examples of this where a person knew they were talking about an angel but still referred to them as iysh would be Manoah's wife in Judges 13:6 or Daniel referring to Gabriel as iysh in Daniel 9:21.

: CatHead  Fri Mar 28, 2014 - 20:49:49

: AVZ  Fri Mar 28, 2014 - 10:04:42
B) The men in Sodom didn't know the strangers were angels. Here is how they address them:
Gen 19:5 "Where are the men which came in to thee this night?"
Gen 19:8 " only unto these men do nothing"
The Hebrew word used here is for mortal men, male persons. Its indiscriminately used for "men of Sodom", the "man" Lot and the "men" that visited Lot.
The word for angel can be found in Gen 19:1.

It seems quite proper to refer to angels as iysh (men) even if you know they are angels.  The author himself does this in Genesis 19, referring to them as ma'lak in vs.1 and then back to calling them iysh in vs.10.  Other examples of this where a person knew they were talking about an angel but still referred to them as iysh would be Manoah's wife in Judges 13:6 or Daniel referring to Gabriel as iysh in Daniel 9:21.

That does not answer or dispute the statement that the residents of Sodom thought the angels visiting Lot were only mortal men - humans. We have no evidence from a plain reading of the text (without throwing scriptures not yet written into the mix) they had a clue they were angelic.

: CatHead  Fri Mar 28, 2014 - 20:49:49

: AVZ  Fri Mar 28, 2014 - 10:04:42
B) The men in Sodom didn't know the strangers were angels. Here is how they address them:
Gen 19:5 "Where are the men which came in to thee this night?"
Gen 19:8 " only unto these men do nothing"
The Hebrew word used here is for mortal men, male persons. Its indiscriminately used for "men of Sodom", the "man" Lot and the "men" that visited Lot.
The word for angel can be found in Gen 19:1.

It seems quite proper to refer to angels as iysh (men) even if you know they are angels.  The author himself does this in Genesis 19, referring to them as ma'lak in vs.1 and then back to calling them iysh in vs.10.  Other examples of this where a person knew they were talking about an angel but still referred to them as iysh would be Manoah's wife in Judges 13:6 or Daniel referring to Gabriel as iysh in Daniel 9:21.

I think the author is very consistent in the usage of the word "angel" and "men".
In verse 1 he informs us that angels were sent to Sodom, so that the reader would know that these men were angels.
In verse 5 he informs us how the men of Sodom saw them: men.
What follows is a consistent usage of the word "men".

The question you should ask yourself is why the author would start off using the word "angels" and immediately shifts to the use of "men" in the same chapter, if he did not have a particular reason for it.

After the story with the men of Sodom is over, in verse 15, the author switches back to the use of "angels".

To me the message the author sends to us is the same as we would do in plain English. Where the audience thought the men were angels, he uses the word angels.
Where the audience thought the men were men, he uses the word men.

Sounds good and right AVZ.

Hi Dave,

: DaveW  Mon Mar 31, 2014 - 06:04:10
That does not answer or dispute the statement that the residents of Sodom thought the angels visiting Lot were only mortal men - humans. We have no evidence from a plain reading of the text (without throwing scriptures not yet written into the mix) they had a clue they were angelic.

Yes i understand, and agree with you.  If not reading genesis19 from the perspective of Jude1:7 and 2Peter2:10 the reasonable assumption would be that the Sodomites believed the angels to be men.  Reading other witness accounts of the same events however is often necessary to come to the correct understanding of the event though.  I know you understand this because you asked me to to expand my understanding of the sins of Sodom using Ezekiel 16:49,50 (which was not yet written) earlier in this discussion.

I only mention that it is acceptable to refer to angels as iysh in scripture because it allows for the possibility that the Sodomites knew they were angels.  Of course, reading Genesis19 in a vacuum, the fact that the Sodomites referred to the angels as iysh is not proof they knew they were angels.  But it is also not proof that they didn't know, since it is acceptable in scripture to refer to angels as iysh.

When Jude1:7 says plainly that the Sodomite's lust was hetero, it's time to reexamine the 'plain reading' understanding of Genesis 19 though imo.  Jude 1:7 completely eliminates homosexual lust as the sexual sin Sodom was judged for.  So if the actions of the crowd in front of Lot's house is to be used as an indicator of the past behavior that God judged them for, and Jude1:7 eliminates homosexual lust as a possible cause of their judgement, then it becomes clear to me that the Sodomites weren't lusting after Lot's visitors because they believed them to be 'mortal men'. 

Hi AVZ,

: AVZ  Mon Mar 31, 2014 - 07:32:55
I think the author is very consistent in the usage of the word "angel" and "men".
In verse 1 he informs us that angels were sent to Sodom, so that the reader would know that these men were angels.
In verse 5 he informs us how the men of Sodom saw them: men.
What follows is a consistent usage of the word "men".

The question you should ask yourself is why the author would start off using the word "angels" and immediately shifts to the use of "men" in the same chapter, if he did not have a particular reason for it.

After the story with the men of Sodom is over, in verse 15, the author switches back to the use of "angels".

To me the message the author sends to us is the same as we would do in plain English. Where the audience thought the men were angels, he uses the word angels.
Where the audience thought the men were men, he uses the word men.

In verse 16 ("after the story with the men of Sodom is over") they are again referred to by the author as iysh.  It should be clear that Lot and his family understood the visitors to be angels in verse 16 correct?  This would seem to be troublesome to your theory.  More likely the author referred to them by their proper title for clarity to the reader at points in the story, and as a shorthand version of their title for brevity in the rest of the story, the same as we do in plain English.

CatHead said--

>>>Jude 1:7 completely eliminates homosexual lust as the sexual sin Sodom was judged for<<<

Can you be more specific?  When I read Jude 1:7 it does not completely eliminate homosexual lust at all:

"In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire". (Jude 1:7)

I think that the fact these men of Sodom could not recognize the difference between men and angels, but lived totally in their carnal lusts is one of the reasons God destroyed the city. He sends two of his HOLY angels to Sodom, and the men of the city surround Lot's house and threaten to ram the door down if he doesn't bring the "visitors" outside so they "can have sex with them".

In fact, I don't think it mattered to the men of Sodom at all. They were insane in their perverted lust, and were bent on raping anything that even looked like a man. Sin had driven them insane. Imagine it if you can----imagine a group of men surrounding your house and threatening to bust your doors down if you don't bring visitors outside that they "might know them" (have sex with them)!!  This totally perverse and insane action proved that these men were beyond saving, and God totally destroyed the city.

Hi Fish,

: fish153  Mon Mar 31, 2014 - 18:55:07
Can you be more specific?  When I read Jude 1:7 it does not completely eliminate homosexual lust at all:

The lust they were judged for was hetero, the opposite of homo....

: CatHead  Mon Mar 24, 2014 - 23:32:12
Jude1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange (G2087) flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

G2087  heteros  het'-er-os
of uncertain affinity;
(an-, the) other or different.
KJV: altered, else, next (day), one, (an-)other, some, strange.

I bet that the Sin of Sodom was that it sinned in many different ways just not one sin,

: tacdon  Tue May 13, 2014 - 19:32:13
I bet that the Sin of Sodom was that it sinned in many different ways just not one sin,

Ding Ding Ding!  I believe we have a winner!

: Davidjayjordan  Sun Dec 15, 2013 - 00:00:29
....

The sin of sodom was pride...not racism