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About a week ago I found the book "A Waste of Time Called Church" in my 14 year old daughter's pack back.   I have always prided myself in giving her a reasonable amount of freedom,  and have held back on confronting her about it.  Her father has chalked it up to just curiosity.  She maintains good grades, volunteers, and is active in  youth group.  I don't know if my concerns are only because she is typically so open with me or because I am genuinely concerned about this books content.  I spoke to my pastor's wife and she asked for me to give it time before addressing.  I have reached out to this forum for both advice and maybe a place to vent some.  Thank you   

I would leave it. She is of an age to be questioning things for her self, and wanting to be independent. Just pray for her and let her sort things out in her way in her time.

Actually, I would mention to my daughter that I saw the book and ask her if it was good or had any good points it brought up.  Great springboard for a discussion --- not a lecture, a discussion!

I spoke to my pastor's wife (also my daughter's youth minister) perhaps out of guilt for coming to this forum in the first place.   She has found the book at Amazon.   She forwarded me the books description (Below).    She is going to read it "because if one has it they all have it" and asked I do the same.    Her attitude is we need to know exactly what we are dealing with and while books of this nature can seem innocent enough their leveraging of "Humanitarian efforts over Faith  can be confusing to adolescents".   Her hope is to find something redeeming and focus only it and  use it to help prompt a dialogue.  I am more concern with the candid nature it seems to advocate the use of  marijuana.   Thanks everyone for responding.   

Maybe you are the one that can make sense of this. I know I can't. All I can really do is tell the truth about who he was and maybe offer some insight into why he did it. Tell you about an awkward boy with endless questions that evolved in to a narcotic pothead with one simple idea. "I will help people on Sunday instead of going to church."
He didn't shout it from a soap box. He didn't claim a path nor advise of one. He just did it, but in doing it people saw, and in seeing they grew curious. Their curiosity gave way to participation, and the idea gave way to a movement. A movement that when expanded, created an image of empty pews across the country, and those 60 million Americans that filled them every Sunday, setting out into their communities with one common goal; to help anyone that needed a hand.
A movement that traded Sunday bests for sweat trenched t-shirts and dust covered jeans. A movement that felt compelled to have a leader, no matter how much he pleaded with them they didn't.

Sounds like humanism to me.

What we read matters very much; it influences our thought and changes the way we think forever.  If I was in this situation I would do like Helen and have a discussion with them about it right away.  Mainly because it is justice due to God to worship on Sunday.   We have six days a week to work, but God wants us to rest on the other day.

And if we really want to change the world, then we would be doing what the book suggests six days a week, not one, and giving that one day to God like he has desired for us.

What is Humanism?

: LovesBNAmom  Mon Apr 07, 2014 - 15:29:16
What is Humanism?

Basically morality/good works, but without faith.

Humanism puts human wisdom at the top of the list.  It does not acknowledge any deity, considers man the top of the evolutionary heap and is often associated with extremes in animal protection (massive lists of 'endangered species' before which we must sacrifice all), relativistic morality (what's good/right for you might not be good/right for me), and has taken control of the idea of being 'politically correct.'

I finally bit the bullet and approached my daughter.   Casually while driving I let her know I saw it in her back pack.   Initially she seemed  little embarrassed as if reading it was being disrespectful.    But I remained calm and just asked "What's it about."   At first she seemed reluctant but as she talked she started to open up.   It's obvious that she is taking something from the book.  And while approaching her alleviated some stress it also created another problem.  When I asked, "Would you mind if I read it? "   She literally laughed at the idea, suggesting I wouldn't get it , siting the profanity and drug use.   When asked why?  She shut down and I got,  "I don't know I don't think you would like it."    So I am still no clearer on what I should do.

: LovesBNAmom  Thu Apr 10, 2014 - 08:07:32
I finally bit the bullet and approached my daughter.   Casually while driving I let her know I saw it in her back pack.   Initially she seemed  little embarrassed as if reading it was being disrespectful.    But I remained calm and just asked "What's it about."   At first she seemed reluctant but as she talked she started to open up.   It's obvious that she is taking something from the book.  And while approaching her alleviated some stress it also created another problem.  When I asked, "Would you mind if I read it? "   She literally laughed at the idea, suggesting I wouldn't get it , siting the profanity and drug use.   When asked why?  She shut down and I got,  "I don't know I don't think you would like it."    So I am still no clearer on what I should do.

I would ask her on a date, let her pick her favorite place and go do that.  During dinner have *fun* together, chat and be silly, laugh and be at ease with each other and when you feel the time is right, I would bring it up again.  Say something like "That book is on my mind, and what you said; that you didn't think I would like it makes me curious. How do YOU feel about it?  Tell me what your thoughts are, how the book makes you feel." And listen to her heart on the matter, praying all the while for wisdom, that God would direct you how to use this for His glory both in your relationship with her and her walk with Him.  Keep the lines of communication open.

I would say you might already be behind the ball.  You've had about a week since you first found this book, and you still have not read it for yourself?  Why not?

What if she had been willing to discuss some of the book when you finally confronted her?  You wouldn't have been anywhere near ready to do anything but prove she is right when she said you wouldn't get it... at least, to her.

: Willie T  Thu Apr 10, 2014 - 11:17:24
I would say you might already be behind the ball.  You've had about a week since you first found this book, and you still have not read it for yourself?  Why not?

Perhaps the book is critique of Church but not faith in Jesus or the word. So it might be a book with good intentions.

I have received my copy and skimmed it but I have yet to truly sit down and start reading it.  The title alone makes me very apprehensive but I was also hoping my daughter would extend me an invitation.   I have spoken to my friend and she is close to finishing it.    According to her it is not "Humanism" as she first thought but more a call for "Inclusion".   She said it is a pretty aggressive indictment on the ritual of worship and the bible itself and a blatant attack on the pulpit, by leveraging Good Works over Worship.  She and I have both  done research online about the title and the author only finding some occasional mentions.   This has raised concern in my friend on how and where my daughter got it from.   I will read this weekend.

: LovesBNAmom  Thu Apr 10, 2014 - 13:34:55
  This has raised concern in my friend on how and where my daughter got it from.   

May I ask why you seem to be relying so much on your friends opinion of the situation?  You are her mama. You know your child best. Read the book, talk to your girl!

: MeMyself  Thu Apr 10, 2014 - 14:00:23
[May I ask why you seem to be relying so much on your friends opinion of the situation?  You are her mama. You know your child best. Read the book, talk to your girl!

 Of course I know I am her Mother.  But this is new territory for me.  This isn't her asking if she can see a boy, or her bringing home a bad grade.  This isn't her back talking.  This is different and I am taking it very seriously.   This is a spiritual question and I seek advice from my friend her Youth minister and my pastor's wife.   I don't know all the answers or the questions she could possibly ask or how to respond.   I will always seek guidance when available.   

Sorry about the multiple posts I am not very good at quoting.

: LovesBNAmom  Thu Apr 10, 2014 - 15:04:39
Of course I know I am her Mother.  But this is new territory for me.  This isn't her asking if she can see a boy, or her bringing home a bad grade.  This isn't her back talking.  This is different and I am taking it very seriously.   This is a spiritual question and I seek advice from my friend her Youth minister and my pastor's wife.   I don't know all the answers or the questions she could possibly ask or how to respond.   I will always seek guidance when available.   

Sorry about the multiple posts I am not very good at quoting.

Getting advice or insight is fine, but I get the feeling you are basing your actions on what she thinks and waiting to act based on what she will eventually tell you to do...that seems off to me for some reason.

Are you a new believer? Is that why you feel less qualified to answer her spiritual dilemmas as her mom? 

: MeMyself  Thu Apr 10, 2014 - 15:13:49

: LovesBNAmom  Thu Apr 10, 2014 - 15:04:39
Of course I know I am her Mother.  But this is new territory for me.  This isn't her asking if she can see a boy, or her bringing home a bad grade.  This isn't her back talking.  This is different and I am taking it very seriously.   This is a spiritual question and I seek advice from my friend her Youth minister and my pastor's wife.   I don't know all the answers or the questions she could possibly ask or how to respond.   I will always seek guidance when available.   

Sorry about the multiple posts I am not very good at quoting.

Getting advice or insight is fine, but I get the feeling you are basing your actions on what she thinks and waiting to act based on what she will eventually tell you to do...that seems off to me for some reason.

Are you a new believer? Is that why you feel less qualified to answer her spiritual dilemmas as her mom?

I'm about half-way into the second chapter, and from what I see so far, it is nothing to sweat.  In fact, it seems to be a very accurate remembrance of the foolishness we adults put kids through where the proper adherence to acceptable church etiquette is concerned.

I'm enjoying it immensely!  But if your daughter thinks you won't get it, I'd say there should be a red flag going up.... FOR YOU.  I think my daughter would say, "I'm sure glad you're not like the parents in this book!"

First I am not a new believer but don't see why it would matter when I came to Christ.  I respect my friend for who she is and I respect my church.  When it comes to my daughter's spiritual health My family works in concert with the church.  For some this may just be an easy sit at the table and have an open discussion.  For me it is not that easy.  I find the title "A Waste of Time Called Church  A Stoner's Guide to Salvation" Both offensive and all out affront to our core belief.   The church is represents our spiritual foundation and I will not proceed thinking I am ill prepared for this discussion.  There is too much at stake !  What is wrong with that.

I wouldnt worry too much honestly. Teenagers will all do things and read things that we may not like. Its all part of them growing up, questioning things and being independent.  I am sure this wont be the last time that things like this happen, in fact this is a very minor event compared to many.

Personally I would never have got the pastors wife or the youth pastor involved in this at all, its a minor matter, and my kids would have been mortified if I had. Its private. It would have been between them and their dad and myself.

Its just a book. Pray for her, trust God and move on. You will be very fortunate if this is the worst thing you have had to deal with or that you ever have to deal with. Children need to be allowed to stretch their wings and find God for themselves in their own time, and this can often lead to a time of seeming rejection of what you as her parents have told them and led them to believe.

: Willie T  Thu Apr 10, 2014 - 15:33:13

: MeMyself  Thu Apr 10, 2014 - 15:13:49

: LovesBNAmom  Thu Apr 10, 2014 - 15:04:39
Of course I know I am her Mother.  But this is new territory for me.  This isn't her asking if she can see a boy, or her bringing home a bad grade.  This isn't her back talking.  This is different and I am taking it very seriously.   This is a spiritual question and I seek advice from my friend her Youth minister and my pastor's wife.   I don't know all the answers or the questions she could possibly ask or how to respond.   I will always seek guidance when available.   

Sorry about the multiple posts I am not very good at quoting.

Getting advice or insight is fine, but I get the feeling you are basing your actions on what she thinks and waiting to act based on what she will eventually tell you to do...that seems off to me for some reason.

Are you a new believer? Is that why you feel less qualified to answer her spiritual dilemmas as her mom?

I'm about half-way into the second chapter, and from what I see so far, it is nothing to sweat.  In fact, it seems to be a very accurate remembrance of the foolishness we adults put kids through where the proper adherence to acceptable church etiquette is concerned.

I'm enjoying it immensely!  But if your daughter thinks you won't get it, I'd say there should be a red flag going up.... FOR YOU.  I think my daughter would say, "I'm sure glad you're not like the parents in this book!"

Listen to Willie.

Truthfully, this could be seen as a golden opportunity for you and your daughter to sit down, and really get to know each other spiritually..... and even if it HAS to be... "religiously", too.  A good time to teach her (and maybe for her to teach you?) what "church" really SHOULD be all about.... as opposed to what we've often made it to be.

: LovesBNAmom  Thu Apr 10, 2014 - 15:44:29
First I am not a new believer but don't see why it would matter when I came to Christ.

I certainly wasn't meaning my question as an attack. I am just trying to understand why you would feel like you needed to defer to her is all.  You said this was new territory for you and I was wondering if you were new at a Christian walk for it to be do is all.

: LovesBNAmom  Thu Apr 10, 2014 - 15:44:29I respect my friend for who she is and I respect my church.  When it comes to my daughter's spiritual health My family works in concert with the church. 

Ok...

: LovesBNAmom  Thu Apr 10, 2014 - 15:44:29For some this may just be an easy sit at the table and have an open discussion.  For me it is not that easy.

I am sincerely sorry to hear that. I don't understand why it wouldn't be that easy?  Just do it, just talk to her, or better; listen to her! 

: LovesBNAmom  Thu Apr 10, 2014 - 15:44:29I find the title "A Waste of Time Called Church  A Stoner's Guide to Salvation" Both offensive and all out affront to our core belief.   The church is represents our spiritual foundation and I will not proceed thinking I am ill prepared for this discussion.  There is too much at stake !  What is wrong with that.

Ok.

: chosenone  Thu Apr 10, 2014 - 15:51:01
Personally I would never have got the pastors wife or the youth pastor involved in this at all, its a minor matter, and my kids would have been mortified if I had. Its private. It would have been between them and their dad and myself.

I agree completely!

: chosenone  Thu Apr 10, 2014 - 15:51:01Its just a book. Pray for her, trust God and move on. You will be very fortunate if this is the worst thing you have had to deal with or that you ever have to deal with. Children need to be allowed to stretch their wings and find God for themselves in their own time, and this can often lead to a time of seeming rejection of what you as her parents have told them and led them to believe.

TOTALLY agree here as well.

My children were given the truths necessary to live a godly life, but that does not mean they will have convictions and beliefs that are in lock step to ours, our church, or our pastor and his wife.  (I dont' think WE even agree on every point our pastor does!)

: Willie T  Thu Apr 10, 2014 - 16:01:00
Truthfully, this could be seen as a golden opportunity for you and your daughter to sit down, and really get to know each other spiritually..... and even if it HAS to be... "religiously", too.  A good time to teach her (and maybe for her to teach you?) what "church" really SHOULD be all about.... as opposed to what we've often made it to be.

Amen!

There seems to be some concern over the choice of the title..... Well, so far, I happen to agree with the "Stoner".  Church, the way it seems to have been presented to the kids in this book, was probably VERY MUCH a waste of time.

Don't let yourself get hung-up on something so trivial.

Your daughter is at the age where kids are beginning to make a decision, a time in their lives when many young people these days abandon church and don't return for a long time if ever.  So this is a great opportunity to share with your daughter why continuing to go to Church is very, very important.  You probably have your reasons why, and those would be great to share with your daughter.

I disagree with the hands-off approach presented by some here.  You as the parent have the responsibility of spiritual care for your child.

This book is clearly providing the reader with a one-dimensional view into one particular person's experience at their church, and it does so with a rebellious spirit.  Rebellious spirits are not from God.  It would not be a stretch to call the rebellious spirit "demonic" as that is what happened that caused the angels to fall and become demons.

So basically there is spiritual warfare going on, and you (and your husband) have an important role in this situation.  Try to instill in her what inspires you to go to Church.  Give her some foresight into the difficulties of life and that will instill wisdom.  We all benefit by taking time to be quiet with the Lord, and not always busy as this book teaches.  Jesus praised Mary for sitting at his feet while Martha ran around and served people.  That might be your go-to story to oppose the message in this book.

Pray first, of course, and I will pray for you and for your daughter.

Andre

: Catholica  Thu Apr 10, 2014 - 16:52:38
Your daughter is at the age where kids are beginning to make a decision, a time in their lives when many young people these days abandon church and don't return for a long time if ever.  So this is a great opportunity to share with your daughter why continuing to go to Church is very, very important.  You probably have your reasons why, and those would be great to share with your daughter.

I disagree with the hands-off approach presented by some here.  You as the parent have the responsibility of spiritual care for your child.

This book is clearly providing the reader with a one-dimensional view into one particular person's experience at their church, and it does so with a rebellious spirit.  Rebellious spirits are not from God.  It would not be a stretch to call the rebellious spirit "demonic" as that is what happened that caused the angels to fall and become demons.

So basically there is spiritual warfare going on, and you (and your husband) have an important role in this situation.  Try to instill in her what inspires you to go to Church.  Give her some foresight into the difficulties of life and that will instill wisdom.  We all benefit by taking time to be quiet with the Lord, and not always busy as this book teaches.  Jesus praised Mary for sitting at his feet while Martha ran around and served people.  That might be your go-to story to oppose the message in this book.

Pray first, of course, and I will pray for you and for your daughter.

Andre

Andre, my approach of not stressing over every little thing worked very well for my children. We need to pick our battles and actually allow our children to grow up and learn and find out for themselves. We must learn to let go and trust our children into Gods care. 

I agree 100% with the girls father, who said its curiosity, and HE is who the OP should be listening to rather than those outside the family. He is the spiritual head of the home and the husband and father. 

Catholica, I don't see *anyone* advocating for a hands off approach!  She NEEDS to get in this herself, not wait on the pastor's wife to tell her what to do, and open a dialog with her daughter!

She needs to not get super hung up on one word in the title, jump to conclusions, and freak out, making this a bigger deal than it perhaps needs to be.

It is a wonderful opportunity for her and her daughter's relationship to be strengthened and deepened.  There is truly no greater blessing than to talk about the things of God, His word and how He would have us live with the children He has blessed us with. It is not the job of our pastor or his wife to do that. It is ours as parents. IMO.

Every teenager goes through this.   Trying to find themselves and trying to figure out what God wants from them.  Children are people with unique personalities.   

But at the same time give her Josh McDowell books full of apologetics.

Also do what Jesus said to do....tell how much God has done for you personally.  How being a Christian has benefitted you with attaining goals and dreams.

Also tell how you would have followed your personal vices to what end if you werent a Christian.

: chosenone  Thu Apr 10, 2014 - 16:58:24

: Catholica  Thu Apr 10, 2014 - 16:52:38
Your daughter is at the age where kids are beginning to make a decision, a time in their lives when many young people these days abandon church and don't return for a long time if ever.  So this is a great opportunity to share with your daughter why continuing to go to Church is very, very important.  You probably have your reasons why, and those would be great to share with your daughter.

I disagree with the hands-off approach presented by some here.  You as the parent have the responsibility of spiritual care for your child.

This book is clearly providing the reader with a one-dimensional view into one particular person's experience at their church, and it does so with a rebellious spirit.  Rebellious spirits are not from God.  It would not be a stretch to call the rebellious spirit "demonic" as that is what happened that caused the angels to fall and become demons.

So basically there is spiritual warfare going on, and you (and your husband) have an important role in this situation.  Try to instill in her what inspires you to go to Church.  Give her some foresight into the difficulties of life and that will instill wisdom.  We all benefit by taking time to be quiet with the Lord, and not always busy as this book teaches.  Jesus praised Mary for sitting at his feet while Martha ran around and served people.  That might be your go-to story to oppose the message in this book.

Pray first, of course, and I will pray for you and for your daughter.

Andre

Andre, my approach of not stressing over every little thing worked very well for my children. We need to pick our battles and actually allow our children to grow up and learn and find out for themselves. We must learn to let go and trust our children into Gods care. 

Detachment is good for us personally, but towards our children it can be bad.    My mom thinks she did a pretty good job in raising me also, and she also didn't stress over "every little thing".  Or any "big thing" for that matter.  She took a very hands off approach.  And I fell into traps of sin.  God made up for her mistakes, but He also gives us parents to impart wisdom.  I wouldn't consider this a "little thing".

God is caring for our children, and the name of that care for this child is "LovesBNAmom".

: Catholica  Fri Apr 11, 2014 - 09:43:13

: chosenone  Thu Apr 10, 2014 - 16:58:24

: Catholica  Thu Apr 10, 2014 - 16:52:38
Your daughter is at the age where kids are beginning to make a decision, a time in their lives when many young people these days abandon church and don't return for a long time if ever.  So this is a great opportunity to share with your daughter why continuing to go to Church is very, very important.  You probably have your reasons why, and those would be great to share with your daughter.

I disagree with the hands-off approach presented by some here.  You as the parent have the responsibility of spiritual care for your child.

This book is clearly providing the reader with a one-dimensional view into one particular person's experience at their church, and it does so with a rebellious spirit.  Rebellious spirits are not from God.  It would not be a stretch to call the rebellious spirit "demonic" as that is what happened that caused the angels to fall and become demons.

So basically there is spiritual warfare going on, and you (and your husband) have an important role in this situation.  Try to instill in her what inspires you to go to Church.  Give her some foresight into the difficulties of life and that will instill wisdom.  We all benefit by taking time to be quiet with the Lord, and not always busy as this book teaches.  Jesus praised Mary for sitting at his feet while Martha ran around and served people.  That might be your go-to story to oppose the message in this book.

Pray first, of course, and I will pray for you and for your daughter.

Andre

Andre, my approach of not stressing over every little thing worked very well for my children. We need to pick our battles and actually allow our children to grow up and learn and find out for themselves. We must learn to let go and trust our children into Gods care. 

Detachment is good for us personally, but towards our children it can be bad.    My mom thinks she did a pretty good job in raising me also, and she also didn't stress over "every little thing".  Or any "big thing" for that matter.  She took a very hands off approach.  And I fell into traps of sin.  God made up for her mistakes, but He also gives us parents to impart wisdom.  I wouldn't consider this a "little thing".

God is caring for our children, and the name of that care for this child is "LovesBNAmom".

As is often the case, a bit of over reaction seems to have crept into the response to the intent of a post.

I think we all know ChosenOne too well to think that a "Ho Hum" attitude was ever suggested.

I hope we all have spent the measly $3.25 it takes to get a download of this little book.

The author is far from professional, making just about every kind of mistake you could think of in writing, but he is entertaining, nonetheless.

It's an easy read about how screwed up a kid's thinking can become when there is no seeming interest nor guidance from a concerned and aware adult.

I'm only on chapter 7, so I'm not too far into the book, but so many glaring parental and congregational leadership mistakes are standing out like "WARNING" road signs.  It's not just us parents, folks.... it really DOES take a village when kids are involved.

: Willie T  Fri Apr 11, 2014 - 10:32:56

: Catholica  Fri Apr 11, 2014 - 09:43:13

: chosenone  Thu Apr 10, 2014 - 16:58:24

: Catholica  Thu Apr 10, 2014 - 16:52:38
Your daughter is at the age where kids are beginning to make a decision, a time in their lives when many young people these days abandon church and don't return for a long time if ever.  So this is a great opportunity to share with your daughter why continuing to go to Church is very, very important.  You probably have your reasons why, and those would be great to share with your daughter.

I disagree with the hands-off approach presented by some here.  You as the parent have the responsibility of spiritual care for your child.

This book is clearly providing the reader with a one-dimensional view into one particular person's experience at their church, and it does so with a rebellious spirit.  Rebellious spirits are not from God.  It would not be a stretch to call the rebellious spirit "demonic" as that is what happened that caused the angels to fall and become demons.

So basically there is spiritual warfare going on, and you (and your husband) have an important role in this situation.  Try to instill in her what inspires you to go to Church.  Give her some foresight into the difficulties of life and that will instill wisdom.  We all benefit by taking time to be quiet with the Lord, and not always busy as this book teaches.  Jesus praised Mary for sitting at his feet while Martha ran around and served people.  That might be your go-to story to oppose the message in this book.

Pray first, of course, and I will pray for you and for your daughter.

Andre

Andre, my approach of not stressing over every little thing worked very well for my children. We need to pick our battles and actually allow our children to grow up and learn and find out for themselves. We must learn to let go and trust our children into Gods care. 

Detachment is good for us personally, but towards our children it can be bad.    My mom thinks she did a pretty good job in raising me also, and she also didn't stress over "every little thing".  Or any "big thing" for that matter.  She took a very hands off approach.  And I fell into traps of sin.  God made up for her mistakes, but He also gives us parents to impart wisdom.  I wouldn't consider this a "little thing".

God is caring for our children, and the name of that care for this child is "LovesBNAmom".

As is often the case, a bit of over reaction seems to have crept into the response to the intent of a post.

I think we all know ChosenOne too well to think that a "Ho Hum" attitude was ever suggested.

I'm only going by her words: "Its just a book. Pray for her, trust God and move on."

: Catholica  Fri Apr 11, 2014 - 10:52:40

: Willie T  Fri Apr 11, 2014 - 10:32:56

: Catholica  Fri Apr 11, 2014 - 09:43:13

: chosenone  Thu Apr 10, 2014 - 16:58:24

: Catholica  Thu Apr 10, 2014 - 16:52:38
Your daughter is at the age where kids are beginning to make a decision, a time in their lives when many young people these days abandon church and don't return for a long time if ever.  So this is a great opportunity to share with your daughter why continuing to go to Church is very, very important.  You probably have your reasons why, and those would be great to share with your daughter.

I disagree with the hands-off approach presented by some here.  You as the parent have the responsibility of spiritual care for your child.

This book is clearly providing the reader with a one-dimensional view into one particular person's experience at their church, and it does so with a rebellious spirit.  Rebellious spirits are not from God.  It would not be a stretch to call the rebellious spirit "demonic" as that is what happened that caused the angels to fall and become demons.

So basically there is spiritual warfare going on, and you (and your husband) have an important role in this situation.  Try to instill in her what inspires you to go to Church.  Give her some foresight into the difficulties of life and that will instill wisdom.  We all benefit by taking time to be quiet with the Lord, and not always busy as this book teaches.  Jesus praised Mary for sitting at his feet while Martha ran around and served people.  That might be your go-to story to oppose the message in this book.

Pray first, of course, and I will pray for you and for your daughter.

Andre

Andre, my approach of not stressing over every little thing worked very well for my children. We need to pick our battles and actually allow our children to grow up and learn and find out for themselves. We must learn to let go and trust our children into Gods care. 

Detachment is good for us personally, but towards our children it can be bad.    My mom thinks she did a pretty good job in raising me also, and she also didn't stress over "every little thing".  Or any "big thing" for that matter.  She took a very hands off approach.  And I fell into traps of sin.  God made up for her mistakes, but He also gives us parents to impart wisdom.  I wouldn't consider this a "little thing".

God is caring for our children, and the name of that care for this child is "LovesBNAmom".

As is often the case, a bit of over reaction seems to have crept into the response to the intent of a post.

I think we all know ChosenOne too well to think that a "Ho Hum" attitude was ever suggested.

I'm only going by her words: "Its just a book. Pray for her, trust God and move on."

I know you were.  But just like the participants in this author's little book, shouldn't we be simply asking others on here.... "Is this really what you meant?"

: Willie T  Fri Apr 11, 2014 - 10:56:24

: Catholica  Fri Apr 11, 2014 - 10:52:40

: Willie T  Fri Apr 11, 2014 - 10:32:56

: Catholica  Fri Apr 11, 2014 - 09:43:13

: chosenone  Thu Apr 10, 2014 - 16:58:24

: Catholica  Thu Apr 10, 2014 - 16:52:38
Your daughter is at the age where kids are beginning to make a decision, a time in their lives when many young people these days abandon church and don't return for a long time if ever.  So this is a great opportunity to share with your daughter why continuing to go to Church is very, very important.  You probably have your reasons why, and those would be great to share with your daughter.

I disagree with the hands-off approach presented by some here.  You as the parent have the responsibility of spiritual care for your child.

This book is clearly providing the reader with a one-dimensional view into one particular person's experience at their church, and it does so with a rebellious spirit.  Rebellious spirits are not from God.  It would not be a stretch to call the rebellious spirit "demonic" as that is what happened that caused the angels to fall and become demons.

So basically there is spiritual warfare going on, and you (and your husband) have an important role in this situation.  Try to instill in her what inspires you to go to Church.  Give her some foresight into the difficulties of life and that will instill wisdom.  We all benefit by taking time to be quiet with the Lord, and not always busy as this book teaches.  Jesus praised Mary for sitting at his feet while Martha ran around and served people.  That might be your go-to story to oppose the message in this book.

Pray first, of course, and I will pray for you and for your daughter.

Andre

Andre, my approach of not stressing over every little thing worked very well for my children. We need to pick our battles and actually allow our children to grow up and learn and find out for themselves. We must learn to let go and trust our children into Gods care. 

Detachment is good for us personally, but towards our children it can be bad.    My mom thinks she did a pretty good job in raising me also, and she also didn't stress over "every little thing".  Or any "big thing" for that matter.  She took a very hands off approach.  And I fell into traps of sin.  God made up for her mistakes, but He also gives us parents to impart wisdom.  I wouldn't consider this a "little thing".

God is caring for our children, and the name of that care for this child is "LovesBNAmom".

As is often the case, a bit of over reaction seems to have crept into the response to the intent of a post.

I think we all know ChosenOne too well to think that a "Ho Hum" attitude was ever suggested.

I'm only going by her words: "Its just a book. Pray for her, trust God and move on."

I know you were.  But just like the adults in this little book's author, shouldn't we be simply asking others on here.... "Is this really what you meant?"

Perhaps.  Did you?

: Catholica  Fri Apr 11, 2014 - 11:00:49
Perhaps.  Did you?

I found nothing objectionable in her post to address.

ChosenOne, do you believe that she should be involved and talk to her child about the book, or that she should be hands off and let God handle the issue instead of addressing it?

: Willie T  Fri Apr 11, 2014 - 10:32:56

: Catholica  Fri Apr 11, 2014 - 09:43:13

: chosenone  Thu Apr 10, 2014 - 16:58:24

: Catholica  Thu Apr 10, 2014 - 16:52:38
Your daughter is at the age where kids are beginning to make a decision, a time in their lives when many young people these days abandon church and don't return for a long time if ever.  So this is a great opportunity to share with your daughter why continuing to go to Church is very, very important.  You probably have your reasons why, and those would be great to share with your daughter.

I disagree with the hands-off approach presented by some here.  You as the parent have the responsibility of spiritual care for your child.

This book is clearly providing the reader with a one-dimensional view into one particular person's experience at their church, and it does so with a rebellious spirit.  Rebellious spirits are not from God.  It would not be a stretch to call the rebellious spirit "demonic" as that is what happened that caused the angels to fall and become demons.

So basically there is spiritual warfare going on, and you (and your husband) have an important role in this situation.  Try to instill in her what inspires you to go to Church.  Give her some foresight into the difficulties of life and that will instill wisdom.  We all benefit by taking time to be quiet with the Lord, and not always busy as this book teaches.  Jesus praised Mary for sitting at his feet while Martha ran around and served people.  That might be your go-to story to oppose the message in this book.

Pray first, of course, and I will pray for you and for your daughter.

Andre

Andre, my approach of not stressing over every little thing worked very well for my children. We need to pick our battles and actually allow our children to grow up and learn and find out for themselves. We must learn to let go and trust our children into Gods care. 

Detachment is good for us personally, but towards our children it can be bad.    My mom thinks she did a pretty good job in raising me also, and she also didn't stress over "every little thing".  Or any "big thing" for that matter.  She took a very hands off approach.  And I fell into traps of sin.  God made up for her mistakes, but He also gives us parents to impart wisdom.  I wouldn't consider this a "little thing".

God is caring for our children, and the name of that care for this child is "LovesBNAmom".

As is often the case, a bit of over reaction seems to have crept into the response to the intent of a post.

I think we all know ChosenOne too well to think that a "Ho Hum" attitude was ever suggested.

No its wasn't Willie you are so right. I bought my kids up in a firm, consistent but loving way. I was pretty strict when they were young with things like routine, bedtimes, behaviour and what tv they could watch etc. However, as they grow into their teens, we do need to let go a bit and to give them more freedom to learn and explore and read and research other things in life than merely what we have taught them. We shouldn't be afraid of that but keep praying and trust them into Gods care. As they mature we must withdraw more to allow them to be independent young people with their own minds and thoughts and ideas and faith.

I know too many young people who have been so controlled and smothered by their parents, that as adults they cannot make a decision, leave home or cope with anything life throws at them. Its tragic.  ::frown::

: Catholica  Fri Apr 11, 2014 - 11:06:23
ChosenOne, do you believe that she should be involved and talk to her child about the book, or that she should be hands off and let God handle the issue instead of addressing it?

IF the book was in her bag I wouldn't have touched it out of respect for her privacy.  If it was in her room on show, I would probably have spoken to her and asked her what she thought of it and what it was about, in a non accusing friendly way. Then I would have taken it from there.
I would hope to have listened to my husband and what he felt the right thing to do. In this case he said he felt it was curiosity(and I agree) and didn't want to take it any further.
I wouldnt make her feel bad for wanting to read it, or tell her not to, because that would merely make it more appealing. When we have teenagers we are treading a fine line, and we do need to pick our battles and respect their opinions and decisions to a large extent.
If we rush in and make a fuss about something that isn't that serious, they will never come to us with worries or fears or questions, but will hide things more and be more secretive.

Okay I was really trying to hold off on commenting before I finished this garbage.   But as seeing that Willie and I are the only ones reading it.  I feel I need to address it.  First Willie is correct this is a poorly  written self published unedited trash.   The book comes off innocent enough recounting awkward church stories, but you get the sense that is just the author's attempt to lure you in and to get you laughing about  the absurd way we worship.   Then speaking of chapters.  Here are some gems for you .  "Lets get Stoned" or "The Atheist Stripper".   This book belittles faith.  It isn't cute it isn't funny.    I will finish it only because I have to.  But me and my friends concerns are increasing with every page turned.  How did this book come out of no where and find its way into a 14 year olds pack back?    Have we as Christians forgotten that the devil is real and he seeks to attack  our children subtly?     

: LovesBNAmom  Fri Apr 11, 2014 - 14:14:33
  Have we as Christians forgotten that the devil is real and he seeks to attack  our children subtly?     

???

No. Talk to your daughter about your concerns, *listen* to her about hers. If the book resonates with her, there must be a reason, teens are *highly* sensitive to what they perceive as hypocrisy.  Help her process, don't shame her, she is searching and trying to make this faith she has grown up with her own.

Try to keep it between you, your dh and her, LEAVE your friend and her opinions out of it. It is not her business. 

: LovesBNAmom  Fri Apr 11, 2014 - 14:14:33
Okay I was really trying to hold off on commenting before I finished this garbage.   But as seeing that Willie and I are the only ones reading it.  I feel I need to address it.  First Willie is correct this is a poorly  written self published unedited trash.   The book comes off innocent enough recounting awkward church stories, but you get the sense that is just the author's attempt to lure you in and to get you laughing about  the absurd way we worship.   Then speaking of chapters.  Here are some gems for you .  "Lets get Stoned" or "The Atheist Stripper".   This book belittles faith.  It isn't cute it isn't funny.    I will finish it only because I have to.  But me and my friends concerns are increasing with every page turned.  How did this book come out of no where and find its way into a 14 year olds pack back?    Have we as Christians forgotten that the devil is real and he seeks to attack  our children subtly?   

I am only up to chapter 10, but most of the stuff up to that point is just loaded with beautiful, God-given opportunities to really get into understanding the "how and why" of the attitudes this kid started trying to formulate.

Please don't dismiss all the good dialogue this little book could help you instigate if skillfully managed to your advantage, just because it is not a literary pearl.  It is truly a diamond in the rough, IF you know how to make it reflect the properly selected and polished facets of developmental thinking in a teenager.

There is no such thing as "simple curiosity" when it comes to media, is there?  I'm so glad that you did get yourself involved, LovesBNAmom.

Some people might consider my wife and I extreme, but so be it.  We guard all media in our home jealously.  People in today's age would think that our kids would be miserable.  But rather our kids are filled with joy that is extremely uncommon.  And we get them involved in positive things, and gradually introduce them to new things as they are ready for them, which my wife and I judge by their maturing and their need, out of zealous love for their souls.

This is no small issue and you were absolutely right to look into it.  To me that shows that you are a mom who loves your children more than many today.

From someone who hasn't forgotten about Satan.  :-)

Remember.............................. The fastest way to drive your daughter into the arms of that stupid, long-haired freak you saw her with at the mall is to tell her what a fool you think he looks like.  Forget this small, basic part of parenting a teen girl, and you KNOW what will happen.

Please..... Don't, don't, don't fall into that trap.

: Catholica  Fri Apr 11, 2014 - 14:28:15
There is no such thing as "simple curiosity" when it comes to media, is there?  I'm so glad that you did get yourself involved, LovesBNAmom.

Some people might consider my wife and I extreme, but so be it.  We guard all media in our home jealously.  People in today's age would think that our kids would be miserable.  But rather our kids are filled with joy that is extremely uncommon.  And we get them involved in positive things, and gradually introduce them to new things as they are ready for them, which my wife and I judge by their maturing and their need, out of zealous love for their souls.

This is no small issue and you were absolutely right to look into it.  To me that shows that you are a mom who loves your children more than many today.

From someone who hasn't forgotten about Satan.  :-)

You can do than when they are young and you can control what they do and see and hear in your home(as I did), but as they grow and mature and go to secondary school and to friends houses and mix in the real world, and leave home, and go to university, you cant do that. Then you will need to trust them and trust God to look after them and find their own way and their own faith in their own time.
Stamping down on every little thing that we may not ourselves approve of wont help. They will still do it, but in secret. They will stop communicating and sharing and being able to ask questions.
Sometimes we can do more harm than good if we over react on such things.   

By the way loving doesn't mean controlling and over protecting and not allowing a teenager to grow up. Gradually letting go at the right time is something that so many parents struggle with today, I see it all the time. Inept dysfunctional young adults who cant cope with life because of it.  Its far more of a problem than those who understand that teenagers need to investigate matters and question things for themselves instead of just telling them that they must do things the parents way or else.   

: Willie T  Fri Apr 11, 2014 - 14:33:24
Remember.............................. The fastest way to drive your daughter into the arms of that stupid, long-haired freak you saw her with at the mall is to tell her what a fool you think he looks like.  Forget this small, basic part of parenting a teen girl, and you KNOW what will happen.

Please..... Don't, don't, don't fall into that trap.

Oh Willie that's so true. I have two daughters and a son, all well into adulthood now(my son now has his own son), and they have taught me such a lot about what is important and what isn't, in life and in parenting.  ::smile:: 

The best situation we can be in is not just saying "no" to things, but rather to be teaching the why in the positive as well.  Helping kids to know their inherent dignity.  Showing them the beauty of the truth.  Imparting true wisdom.  These tools have given to parents to impart in their children.  Through these things kids will be not simply following rules when they go off on their own, but will be adhering principles with virtue.

In this situation, it appears to be too late for that however.  The daughter has already listened to the bad media.  We think that it doesn't matter what enters our heads, but Eve in the garden of Eden listened to the serpent and it polluted her mind. 

So now you are doing the right thing, LovesBNAmom.

: LovesBNAmom  Mon Apr 07, 2014 - 11:28:13
About a week ago I found the book "A Waste of Time Called Church" in my 14 year old daughter's pack back.   I have always prided myself in giving her a reasonable amount of freedom,  and have held back on confronting her about it.  Her father has chalked it up to just curiosity.  She maintains good grades, volunteers, and is active in  youth group.  I don't know if my concerns are only because she is typically so open with me or because I am genuinely concerned about this books content.  I spoke to my pastor's wife and she asked for me to give it time before addressing.  I have reached out to this forum for both advice and maybe a place to vent some.  Thank you   

When my kids read something I feel may effect their emotional well-being, I always ask them if I can read it when they are done.
Their response always is more telling to me than the content of the book.

: AVZ  Fri Apr 11, 2014 - 19:26:11

: LovesBNAmom  Mon Apr 07, 2014 - 11:28:13
About a week ago I found the book "A Waste of Time Called Church" in my 14 year old daughter's pack back.   I have always prided myself in giving her a reasonable amount of freedom,  and have held back on confronting her about it.  Her father has chalked it up to just curiosity.  She maintains good grades, volunteers, and is active in  youth group.  I don't know if my concerns are only because she is typically so open with me or because I am genuinely concerned about this books content.  I spoke to my pastor's wife and she asked for me to give it time before addressing.  I have reached out to this forum for both advice and maybe a place to vent some.  Thank you   

When my kids read something I feel may effect their emotional well-being, I always ask them if I can read it when they are done.
Their response always is more telling to me than the content of the book.

Yep.  We are working with "perceptions"... both theirs, and ours.

I have finished this book.  I can see its allure and both my friend and I view it as  "Dangerous!".    It comes across with this innocent "have you ever  thought about it like this " attitude .   Or a "don't you find this kind of silly".  But if you pay attention here is what you will find.  The author... author that's comical actually.  This person with a  computer that posted this disguises their message in this everyday person that has this epiphany to quit going to church.  Instead they will help people on Sundays.  He and his friends posts their desire to lend a hand to strangers on craiglist and Voila! Everyone jumps on board and they mow elder people's lawns,  help people move, clean up parks,  make swing set.   Very warm and fuzzy and admirable. 

The characters attack The Gospel dissecting it and even rewriting it to fit there own agenda.  (They compare it to a flat world map)
They manipulate Royal law
They dismiss Hell as a joke
They walk out of churches during the invitation
They characterized Christians specifically as a group of  simple minded prisoners held captive by the pulpit
They characterize religion as means of control.
They do drugs and it is no big deal
Those that defend true faith are mocked and made to look crazy, mean, and stupid.

Here are some quotes: "Don't mistake your relationship with the church of even your religion for your relationship with God.  God is bigger than that and so are you."
The Bible:   "It's a way for religious zealots to one up one another.  The higher they can raise the Bible the closer they can say they are to God."
They say whoever wrote Revelation was "stoned".

My daughter returns from her father's tonight.   I am trying to maintain some perspective and remain calm.  I do appreciate everyone's participation in this forum, but please understand this book represent in "My belief"  a dangerous influence on my daughter.  It will not be ignored.  And while many have suggested I should let it go or allow a natural dialogue to happen that is not  an option.   Her reading this worries me sincerely  for both its content and how it arrived in her back pack.   My friend is   is going to try and prompt a discussion on "Good Works" in youth group  to see if that opens up a conversation.   Her attitude is to focus on that and that alone, then expose only the points they raise.   I am not sure I will be able wait until after church to address it. 

Don't you see what you are being led into?  Consistently, you have made a big deal of "Where did this book come from, to end up in her back pack?".  So what, WHERE it came from?  It came from the same place all the rest of the books and pictures and philosophies that she is now finding, on a weekly basis, will be coming from............ the world she is now entering into.

Truly, I am trying to warn you, in love, that you are harboring and radically expanding an attitude that could easily blow this thing all out of proportion if you even attempt to address any of this in your present, upset and irrational state of mind.  Surely, you cannot be so naïve as to think you can treat a teenager the same as you were able to steamroller a child with, "because I say so", tactics a few years ago, are you?

This is a time for cooler heads to prevail.  And you are not exhibiting one at this point.

And this is a time to QUICKLY begin to relate to this new YOUNG WOMAN in your household as the "adult" she thinks she is.  If you do not, things will look rosy to you for a little while... and you will think you did your job........................... ONLY to find that you will have done nothing more than driven all this awakening curiosity (THAT MUST BE ADDRESSED) underground where you will possibly never again hear of it until it explodes in your face a year, or so, from now.

Smarten up.  This is a chance, and God will help..... but not in the way that it looks like you're insisting on taking it.

Playing Ostrich won't work with teens.  (And that thought in the back of your mind of turning the blame to her father?  Get rid of that evil,  right now....... It's about HER, not you guys.)

Where do we draw the line.   What if I discovered grotesque pictures or sexually explicit material in her pack back?   What if I discovered Drugs?   I understand how it appears to you Willie especially considering  you had defended this book in your previous posts.  But can you at least extend me the courtesy of understanding what  this represent to me.  Its  spiritual pornography.   Is there anything that would cause you to be worried and concerned about your child that you felt was both delicate but needed to be dealt with immediately.    So I don't care if appears I am irrational when I honestly see this as way to desensitize her to sinful influences.   And I will expose this book to her for what it is.

: LovesBNAmom  Sat Apr 12, 2014 - 11:27:54
Where do we draw the line.   What if I discovered grotesque pictures or sexually explicit material in her pack back?   What if I discovered Drugs?   I understand how it appears to you Willie especially considering  you had defended this book in your previous posts.  But can you at least extend me the courtesy of understanding what  this represent to me.  Its  spiritual pornography.   Is there anything that would cause you to be worried and concerned about your child that you felt was both delicate but needed to be dealt with immediately.    So I don't care if appears I am irrational when I honestly see this as way to desensitize her to sinful influences.   And I will expose this book to her for what it is.

The breakdown in your entire approach is expressed in your own words.

We "expose" nothing to teens.  (Why do you think it never worked with any of us?)  We lead them to think for themselves, and let them do their own "exposing".

: LovesBNAmom  Sat Apr 12, 2014 - 10:40:25
I have finished this book.  I can see its allure and both my friend and I view it as  "Dangerous!".    It comes across with this innocent "have you ever  thought about it like this " attitude .   Or a "don't you find this kind of silly".  But if you pay attention here is what you will find.  The author... author that's comical actually.  This person with a  computer that posted this disguises their message in this everyday person that has this epiphany to quit going to church.  Instead they will help people on Sundays.  He and his friends posts their desire to lend a hand to strangers on craiglist and Voila! Everyone jumps on board and they mow elder people's lawns,  help people move, clean up parks,  make swing set.   Very warm and fuzzy and admirable. 

The characters attack The Gospel dissecting it and even rewriting it to fit there own agenda.  (They compare it to a flat world map)
They manipulate Royal law
They dismiss Hell as a joke
They walk out of churches during the invitation
They characterized Christians specifically as a group of  simple minded prisoners held captive by the pulpit
They characterize religion as means of control.
They do drugs and it is no big deal
Those that defend true faith are mocked and made to look crazy, mean, and stupid.

Here are some quotes: "Don't mistake your relationship with the church of even your religion for your relationship with God.  God is bigger than that and so are you."
The Bible:   "It's a way for religious zealots to one up one another.  The higher they can raise the Bible the closer they can say they are to God."
They say whoever wrote Revelation was "stoned".

My daughter returns from her father's tonight.   I am trying to maintain some perspective and remain calm.  I do appreciate everyone's participation in this forum, but please understand this book represent in "My belief"  a dangerous influence on my daughter.  It will not be ignored.  And while many have suggested I should let it go or allow a natural dialogue to happen that is not  an option.   Her reading this worries me sincerely  for both its content and how it arrived in her back pack.   My friend is   is going to try and prompt a discussion on "Good Works" in youth group  to see if that opens up a conversation.   Her attitude is to focus on that and that alone, then expose only the points they raise.   I am not sure I will be able wait until after church to address it. 

....and what are you going to do when she is 16 or 18 or 20 and does something you don't like? I agree with Willie here. If you stamp down hard on this she will only leave any future books at school or hide it better next time. You seem to think that communication wont help. OF course it will help, far more than you over reacting and laying down the law and not allowing her to ever find things out for herself. Honestly you will probably have far far worse than this to deal with, save your anger and battles for those times.
The more parents make a fuss about something, the more teenagers will react against that and hide things. Its all part of growing up.    Teenagers need to find their own way and their own faith in their own time. One book isn't going to make them turn against God, and if you had said nothing she may well just have read it and forgotten it in a few weeks. Your reaction may well make it all so much worse. In fact it almost certainly will. 

: LovesBNAmom  Sat Apr 12, 2014 - 10:40:25
My daughter returns from her father's tonight.   I am trying to maintain some perspective and remain calm.  I do appreciate everyone's participation in this forum, but please understand this book represent in "My belief"  a dangerous influence on my daughter.  It will not be ignored.  And while many have suggested I should let it go or allow a natural dialogue to happen that is not  an option.   Her reading this worries me sincerely  for both its content and how it arrived in her back pack.   My friend is   is going to try and prompt a discussion on "Good Works" in youth group  to see if that opens up a conversation.   Her attitude is to focus on that and that alone, then expose only the points they raise.   I am not sure I will be able wait until after church to address it. 

You *shouldn't* wait! This is NOT your friend's job to address with her, its yours!  I think you made a HUGE mistake by dragging this friend into it, and now she (your daughter) is going to feel cornered and embarrassed when she (your friend) "happens" to bring this subject up to everyone...

But...nothing can be done about that now.

As for the natural dialog not being an option, why not?  What is stopping you from saying, "I read the book, I have some thoughts, but before I share them, I'd like to hear yours." ?

I spoke to my daughter.  I would like to thank those that offered advice.   I took my daughter out to eat.  Can't remember who offered this advice but the safety of a public place eased my tension and let me know that if there was an argument it would force both of us (probably more for me) to show some restraint.    Once I saw an opportunity I just approached it bluntly.  By saying "I read the book".   She was stunned and I just laid it all out there for her.   I did my best to be both concise and direct and state my objections and disappointment.    And yes disappointment.  I have a feeling I will get torched once again in this forum, but I am disappointed in her for one being lured or dared (as she put it), into reading this and two for not telling me.   I believe in censoring children from certain influence until they are better prepared.   

Many have said enlisting my friend was a mistake, it was not.   Just coming from church and having discussed certain ideas in youth group I believe made her more receptive.   Before responding   know that I am not so naïve to think that every thing a teenager says is authentic,  but I am not going to be afraid to protect  our core beliefs.  This idea that addressing this was somehow  going to scare her or push her away is ludicrous.   I would say sitting back and letting children wander aimlessly with out direction and consequences is lazy parenting.  Yes this was difficult and uncomfortable and there is tension as a result but it establish clear ground rules on what is and is not acceptable and I re-established myself as the authority in this house.     Her only punishment was to throw away her copy which she said she has given away.   She refused to tell me to whom and I am not sure I believe her.   Regardless I have to now think that another child is being exposed to this.     She also gave some vague attempt on how she got it.   I did have her watch while I threw away mine, and it upset her.   My friend suspects that there are three or four of the oldest children in youth group have read this and she is going to continue focus on the blatant manipulations.

: LovesBNAmom  Mon Apr 14, 2014 - 09:48:02
I spoke to my daughter.  I would like to thank those that offered advice.   I took my daughter out to eat.  Can't remember who offered this advice but the safety of a public place eased my tension and let me know that if there was an argument it would force both of us (probably more for me) to show some restraint.    Once I saw an opportunity I just approached it bluntly.  By saying "I read the book".   She was stunned and I just laid it all out there for her.   I did my best to be both concise and direct and state my objections and disappointment.    And yes disappointment.  I have a feeling I will get torched once again in this forum, but I am disappointed in her for one being lured or dared (as she put it), into reading this and two for not telling me.   I believe in censoring children from certain influence until they are better prepared.   

Many have said enlisting my friend was a mistake, it was not.   Just coming from church and having discussed certain ideas in youth group I believe made her more receptive.   Before responding   know that I am not so naïve to think that every thing a teenager says is authentic,  but I am not going to be afraid to protect  our core beliefs.  This idea that addressing this was somehow  going to scare her or push her away is ludicrous.   I would say sitting back and letting children wander aimlessly with out direction and consequences is lazy parenting.  Yes this was difficult and uncomfortable and there is tension as a result but it establish clear ground rules on what is and is not acceptable and I re-established myself as the authority in this house.     Her only punishment was to throw away her copy which she said she has given away.   She refused to tell me to whom and I am not sure I believe her.   Regardless I have to now think that another child is being exposed to this.     She also gave some vague attempt on how she got it.   I did have her watch while I threw away mine, and it upset her.   My friend suspects that there are three or four of the oldest children in youth group have read this and she is going to continue focus on the blatant manipulations.

Did you let her share her thoughts at.all? Did you listen to her, or give her a chance to just tell you where she is coming from?  Children are people too.  They have a right to their own thoughts and feelings on things and should be allowed to share them in a place that is accepting, safe and where they are loved.

My kids and I don't always see eye to eye, but I *always* give them a voice, I *always* listen to their thoughts so I know where their heart is...and I validate how they are feeling and thinking too.

When I have to say "I hear you and I respect your sharing your thoughts with me, but here is where dad and I are coming from, and we just don't feel good about this, so the answer is no." they are more likely to feel we are on the same team, will work with us, not harden their hearts against us and rebel or sneak and will comply. We are called as parents not to provoke our children. IMO from when I was a child and as I raise my own, not allowing kids to be separate people with their own voice and not respecting their way of thinking is the quickest way to provoke them.

Did you ask her WHY she was so upset at the thought you were disposing of the book?  I have a strong feeling that this is not over for her, by a long shot.

: LovesBNAmom  Mon Apr 14, 2014 - 09:48:02
I spoke to my daughter.  I would like to thank those that offered advice.   I took my daughter out to eat.  Can't remember who offered this advice but the safety of a public place eased my tension and let me know that if there was an argument it would force both of us (probably more for me) to show some restraint.    Once I saw an opportunity I just approached it bluntly.  By saying "I read the book".   She was stunned and I just laid it all out there for her.   I did my best to be both concise and direct and state my objections and disappointment.    And yes disappointment.  I have a feeling I will get torched once again in this forum, but I am disappointed in her for one being lured or dared (as she put it), into reading this and two for not telling me.   I believe in censoring children from certain influence until they are better prepared.   

Many have said enlisting my friend was a mistake, it was not.   Just coming from church and having discussed certain ideas in youth group I believe made her more receptive.   Before responding   know that I am not so naïve to think that every thing a teenager says is authentic,  but I am not going to be afraid to protect  our core beliefs.  This idea that addressing this was somehow  going to scare her or push her away is ludicrous.   I would say sitting back and letting children wander aimlessly with out direction and consequences is lazy parenting.  Yes this was difficult and uncomfortable and there is tension as a result but it establish clear ground rules on what is and is not acceptable and I re-established myself as the authority in this house.     Her only punishment was to throw away her copy which she said she has given away.   She refused to tell me to whom and I am not sure I believe her.   Regardless I have to now think that another child is being exposed to this.     She also gave some vague attempt on how she got it.   I did have her watch while I threw away mine, and it upset her.   My friend suspects that there are three or four of the oldest children in youth group have read this and she is going to continue focus on the blatant manipulations.

Wow ::frown::

Way to go, LovesBNAmom.   That was very brave.

: LovesBNAmom  Mon Apr 14, 2014 - 09:48:02
I spoke to my daughter.  I would like to thank those that offered advice.   I took my daughter out to eat.  Can't remember who offered this advice but the safety of a public place eased my tension and let me know that if there was an argument it would force both of us (probably more for me) to show some restraint.    Once I saw an opportunity I just approached it bluntly.  By saying "I read the book".   She was stunned and I just laid it all out there for her.   I did my best to be both concise and direct and state my objections and disappointment.    And yes disappointment.  I have a feeling I will get torched once again in this forum, but I am disappointed in her for one being lured or dared (as she put it), into reading this and two for not telling me.   I believe in censoring children from certain influence until they are better prepared.   

Many have said enlisting my friend was a mistake, it was not.   Just coming from church and having discussed certain ideas in youth group I believe made her more receptive.   Before responding   know that I am not so naïve to think that every thing a teenager says is authentic,  but I am not going to be afraid to protect  our core beliefs.  This idea that addressing this was somehow  going to scare her or push her away is ludicrous.   I would say sitting back and letting children wander aimlessly with out direction and consequences is lazy parenting.  Yes this was difficult and uncomfortable and there is tension as a result but it establish clear ground rules on what is and is not acceptable and I re-established myself as the authority in this house.     Her only punishment was to throw away her copy which she said she has given away.   She refused to tell me to whom and I am not sure I believe her.   Regardless I have to now think that another child is being exposed to this.     She also gave some vague attempt on how she got it.   I did have her watch while I threw away mine, and it upset her.   My friend suspects that there are three or four of the oldest children in youth group have read this and she is going to continue focus on the blatant manipulations.

Good for you.  My oldest boy is coming to an age where I have had to initiate some uncomfortable conversations, so I can understand what you are going through.  Getting advice can be a two-edged sword, so kudos to you for doing what you felt was right and sticking to your guns, so to speak.

Good communication is the key, but there are ways and means of doing it. If we handle things the wrong way, and act far too heavy handed, the children will no longer talk to us about things that they are troubled about or concerned about, because they don't want that same 'do what I say, believe what I believe or else' approach.  We must allow them some freedom to think for themselves and explore for themselves as they get into their teenage years.
I doubt this young lady will let her mum find any future books or anything else that may cause a similar reaction. They will be well hidden from now on.

There will probably be far more serious issues that will come up in the next 3 or 4 years, so do we want our kids to be able to come to us or not?  Out of all my friends, the ones with the very strict parents were the worst in their behaviour and actions. They were the ones who drank, had sex, took drugs and of course their parents knew nothing of this.  Pick your battles is good advise when it come to teenagers. Otherwise you will be at war constantly over every little thing. 

There is always a balance with teenagers, and some parents go too far one way and some go too far the other.
I am troubled that the girls Fathers opinions were ignored completely.

I want to address two issues raised first my daughter's points.  She was indeed infatuated with this book and I gave her  time over lunch and even later on to express her points.   They were difficult to digest but I did.  For examples- "Don't you think the Koz (The main character)  was a good person and that Jesus really only cares about how we treat each other over everything else."  Two other quotes she gravitated to were.   "Who more loves the father the son that sits in his house showering him with praise or the one that willingly tends to his flock outside." The other  being "Any person that has wiped sweat from their brow helping another human being is as baptized as they will ever need to be."   The most difficult part was her defense of their manipulation of Royal law.   But for each of these points I countered respectively.   I really got the sense she wanted me to acknowledge some sort of truth in this garbage and I would NOT.     

As far as her father being ignored.  I kept him informed at the same pace I have updated this thread.   He too became concerned once I explained this book to him.  While he may have approached it slightly differently he was on board with me approaching her.

: LovesBNAmom  Mon Apr 14, 2014 - 13:29:20
I want to address two issues raised first my daughter's points.  She was indeed infatuated with this book and I gave her  time over lunch and even later on to express her points.   They were difficult to digest but I did.  For examples- "Don't you think the Koz (The main character)  was a good person and that Jesus really only cares about how we treat each other over everything else."  Two other quotes she gravitated to were.   "Who more loves the father the son that sits in his house showering him with praise or the one that willingly tends to his flock outside." The other  being "Any person that has wiped sweat from their brow helping another human being is as baptized as they will ever need to be."   The most difficult part was her defense of their manipulation of Royal law.   But for each of these points I countered respectively.   I really got the sense she wanted me to acknowledge some sort of truth in this garbage and I would NOT.   

Interesting.  How did you answer?  Did you relate the Mary and Martha story? 

: LovesBNAmom  Mon Apr 14, 2014 - 13:29:20
As far as her father being ignored.  I kept him informed at the same pace I have updated this thread.   He too became concerned once I explained this book to him.  While he may have approached it slightly differently he was on board with me approaching her.

Glad to hear it.  It would be nice if he could address her concerning the topic of worshiping God as well, if that is possible.

The main course I took was  "Thou shalt not take the Lords name in vain".   I believe many Christians have mistaken this commandment.   I explained.   It is arrogant and sinful to assume we can understand God's motives.   We as his children can not begin to fathom his grace.   We have been blessed with his word and in it the answers.   

: LovesBNAmom  Mon Apr 14, 2014 - 13:29:20
I want to address two issues raised first my daughter's points.  She was indeed infatuated with this book and I gave her  time over lunch and even later on to express her points.   They were difficult to digest but I did.  For examples- "Don't you think the Koz (The main character)  was a good person and that Jesus really only cares about how we treat each other over everything else."  Two other quotes she gravitated to were.   "Who more loves the father the son that sits in his house showering him with praise or the one that willingly tends to his flock outside." The other  being "Any person that has wiped sweat from their brow helping another human being is as baptized as they will ever need to be."   The most difficult part was her defense of their manipulation of Royal law.   But for each of these points I countered respectively.   I really got the sense she wanted me to acknowledge some sort of truth in this garbage and I would NOT.     

I am VERY glad to hear you allowed her a time to share with you! That is great!  Good job!  ::clappingoverhead::

Did you call her points and points of agreement with the book garbage?

Tending the flock is biblical. Peter was told to feed His sheep and Jesus says this as well:

Matthew 25: 31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.'

It sounds as if she has a heart for missions and acts of service which are NOT garbage!

God is also clear that it is VERY important to Him how we treat others, that we don't show favoritism, or put people down.  He calls us to be wise as serpents and gentle as doves.

The baptism bit is troubling though and should be addressed.  NOT disrespected and put down, but addressed with dignity and respect. Remember that you have Truth on your side and there is no reason to call an opposing view point garbage. You want her to hear you and she will not do that if your words are careless and put her on the defensive.

I guess you can be proud of yourself.  You got what you set out to get.  (But, sadly, nowhere near what both of you COULD have had.)

Willie-  I respect the fact that you read this book though I believe like me you discovered it to be a blatant manipulations since you have ceased to defend it.  I don't understand this idea of dialogue and this idea that children get to participate as adults.  They are not adults they are not prepared to be adults.  Why must we suppress our core beliefs because we are afraid to hurt our children's feelings.    I approached her directly I didn't sugar coat it and I am proud of that.   This idea you have to tip toe and get to the cause and understand before acting like a parent isn't being a parent. 

: LovesBNAmom  Mon Apr 14, 2014 - 15:36:31
I don't understand this idea of dialogue and this idea that children get to participate as adults. They are not adults they are not prepared to be adults. 

No one said anything about that. Of course they aren't adults, but they ARE people and deserve to be treated with respect and dignity!

: LovesBNAmom  Mon Apr 14, 2014 - 15:36:31Why must we suppress our core beliefs because we are afraid to hurt our children's feelings.

It is important to God that we not provoke our children to anger. Behaving like a bull in a china shop "because I SAID SO!" is doing just that.

: LovesBNAmom  Mon Apr 14, 2014 - 15:36:31I approached her directly I didn't sugar coat it and I am proud of that.

So you did call her feelings and beliefs about the book garbage then?

: LovesBNAmom  Mon Apr 14, 2014 - 15:36:31This idea you have to tip toe and get to the cause and understand before acting like a parent isn't being a parent. 

Neither is the attitude, "its my way or the highway"...that's being a bully.

: LovesBNAmom  Mon Apr 14, 2014 - 15:36:31
Willie-  I respect the fact that you read this book though I believe like me you discovered it to be a blatant manipulations since you have ceased to defend it.  I don't understand this idea of dialogue and this idea that children get to participate as adults.  They are not adults they are not prepared to be adults.  Why must we suppress our core beliefs because we are afraid to hurt our children's feelings.    I approached her directly I didn't sugar coat it and I am proud of that.   This idea you have to tip toe and get to the cause and understand before acting like a parent isn't being a parent.

You still won't let yourself get it, will you?

First of all, let's try to get the focus off you.  Many of the things you have said indicate a desire to be proven "right", and to be justified in your beliefs.  Good grief!  You actually want to be the "winner" in an argument with a 14 year-old who has no ultimate choice but to give in to you?  Fine........ if you were also 14 years old.

It's NOT about you, it's about HER, and about your responsibility in nurturing a sense of mature awareness and understanding judgment.  I have to say you seem to have done almost none of that during this very serious incident in her life.  You just muscled authority, and showed her that, to you, her opinions don't count for anything but to be thrown in the trash can.

I think you are still desperately needing to see her as a child.  And she is no longer that.  My, God, she just finished reading a book about lap dances and hand-jobs, and getting stoned.  You can't turn back the clock.  You can't "wish" her not to grow up and wonder what else there is, when she knows what the boy looking at her is thinking.

And, as others have said.... you don't know the half of it yet.  All you have succeeded in doing is making her believe that "since Mom doesn't care, I'll find my answers from those that DO care........ the kids who listen to me, and respect my opinions."

And you know very well that I never defended that book.  (Other than to say that Matt was pretty much telling it like it is over much of our land)  What I DID say was that GOD blessed you with a rare opportunity many parents never get, to be a relevant and timely part of your daughter's transition from a child to a woman.  But, to graphically make a point, you threw that opportunity in the trash can, along with your daughter's attempt at developing an understanding of her value and worth.

So sad.  That was a precious gift, and you ground it underfoot to show your daughter how righteous you feel you are.  Even sadder........... she probably got it...  in spades.  Something that, like Matt, she may never forget.

: Willie T  Fri Apr 11, 2014 - 14:26:21

Please don't dismiss all the good dialogue this little book could help you instigate if skillfully managed to your advantage, just because it is not a literary pearl.  It is truly a diamond in the rough, IF you know how to make it reflect the properly selected and polished facets of developmental thinking in a teenager.
[/quote]

This appears to be quite the ringing endorsement.   I came to this forum for advice and I got it.  I apologize that you are so hurt I didn't take yours.  I want as rich of relationship with my daughter as any parent,  the only difference is I will not sacrifice her physical or spiritual health to get it. 

: LovesBNAmom  Mon Apr 14, 2014 - 16:30:04

: Willie T  Fri Apr 11, 2014 - 14:26:21

Please don't dismiss all the good dialogue this little book could help you instigate if skillfully managed to your advantage, just because it is not a literary pearl.  It is truly a diamond in the rough, IF you know how to make it reflect the properly selected and polished facets of developmental thinking in a teenager.

: LovesBNAmom  Mon Apr 14, 2014 - 16:30:04
This appears to be quite the ringing endorsement.   I came to this forum for advice and I got it.  I apologize that you are so hurt I didn't take yours.  I want as rich of relationship with my daughter as any parent,  the only difference is I will not sacrifice her physical or spiritual health to get it.

No one can be this detached.  I (and just about any parent on this board) can sit you down, and show you literally hundreds of golden opportunities to use almost every statement in that book as God-glorifying "lead-ins" to compare Matt and the Koz to the kind of person your daughter wants to be, and to respect........... to let her see, and decide for herself, just what sort of people these are.

Are you truly capable of only shockingly reacting to some "G-D" words, and "F-Bombs"?  Rather than using the reality your daughter lives in every day at school as a teaching and growing tool.

It doesn't have to be written, "Holy, Holy", in gold trim, to be a valuable thing you can use to help shape your child's life.  Do you honestly think your daughter doesn't hear, every day, (and maybe even more than just "hear") all those words that have you so horrified?  Hey, go volunteer at her school for a few months.  Your eyes will quickly be opened.  It's not all just ponies and popsicles in schools anymore.

: LovesBNAmom  Mon Apr 14, 2014 - 15:36:31
Willie-  I respect the fact that you read this book though I believe like me you discovered it to be a blatant manipulations since you have ceased to defend it.  I don't understand this idea of dialogue and this idea that children get to participate as adults.  They are not adults they are not prepared to be adults.  Why must we suppress our core beliefs because we are afraid to hurt our children's feelings.    I approached her directly I didn't sugar coat it and I am proud of that.   This idea you have to tip toe and get to the cause and understand before acting like a parent isn't being a parent.

Absolutely correct.

But at the same time she is an individual who has her own thoughts about things.

She might be confusing entertainment with logic with her desire to find truth in the book.

And taking God's name in vain is more about calling yourself a Christian and behaving poorly than misusing God's name.

So remind her that holy is not a static adjective.  The whole earth is holy and is seeking to destroy unholy mankind forced upon it.  Holy natural systems seek to actively destroy error. God will not be mocked and the whole universe will see to it. It is a very terrible thing to fall prey to an angry God who has reason to not extend grace.

This must be the peer chastisement forum. Misnamed perhaps.

Maybe her conversation with her daughter could have gone better, maybe she has already been self-critical about perceived mistakes. We all make them and none of us is perfect. However she didn't ask the peanut gallery to criticize her technique, but only for advice on what to do. And now it's done so she doesn't deserve this chastisement.  If she wanted our opinions on how she handled it she would ask for them. Instead she gets a righteous smack down that is beyond ironic, because I guarantee you if I was treated as she has been then asking a bunch of self-professing Christians would be the last place I would look for advice.

Addendum, I am not referring to johnDB's response.

Sorry, I'm not geared to simply say, "Oh well........ better luck next time."  I'm geared for truth, not placation.

She already said she was proud of the way she slammed the door on any meaningful dialogue.  Even said dialogue wasn't necessary.  This has not ended for them, and if I don't happen to look good, smiling and telling her it's all just fine, well that's where I have to take a cue from the way Jesus did things, not how I might make someone feel good about what I see as a serious mistake that will be repeated in the future if not directly and honestly addressed.

While I did not appreciate the language used in this book it had nothing to do with the reason I hated it.   My daughter listens to music that I dislike,  wears clothes I am not fond of,  watches TV shows that I find surprisingly explicit.  (ABC Family).    Sometimes there are discussions,  "What is it about this that you like?"   Other times lines are approached and I say nothing and other times lines are crossed and there is no discussions such as "you are not leaving in that?"   And what surprises me in this forum is the fact  that so many see the lesson in understanding the "why".   But fail to see the disservice they do in not eliminating the choice.    I don't believe in this  "You have to find your own way" new age parenting.   They are lost we are their guide.   Allowing children the ability to make all their own choices burdens them with stress. 

This book represented a gray area.  I asked for advice.  I read it even though I hated it... for my daughter.   I wasn't rash.   What I discovered was this book crossed way over the line.  I have given details to this books content.  Succumbing to curiosity is not a reason nor is peer pressure.  Her connection to it was defiant not spiritual.    It was an attempt to derail my daughter and before it happened I stepped in.     

: LovesBNAmom  Tue Apr 15, 2014 - 09:15:43
   Allowing children the ability to make all their own choices burdens them with stress.

Just speaking in general terms, NOT about your choice on this book:  As someone who was raised with this mindset, (that children should not be given the ability to make their own choices) it is VERY stressful as an adult, who feels incapable of making choices.  It has been a life long struggle of mine, because the attitude of parents who heard what my feelings were and responded "too dam* bad", or "Kids know nothing" or not being allowed a voice, or thoughts of my own has left me doubting my own abilities to make decisions.

There is a way to help them learn, sure, and parents of course get the final say, but it isn't all black and white.  Kids are people and it is important to raise them not only with conviction and integrity, but also the gift of understanding they are capable and confident in their abilities to question authority, to find their own way to go, to discover their own convictions.  It isn't always the easiest way to raise them, admittedly.   

: LovesBNAmom  Tue Apr 15, 2014 - 09:15:43Her connection to it was defiant not spiritual.       

Well, you know her better than we do...but, was this your conclusion about her, or your friends conclusion?

My son had a crisis of faith too.  It wasn't defiance, it was a growing pain...

: MeMyself  Tue Apr 15, 2014 - 09:28:58
Just speaking in general terms, NOT about your choice on this book:

But this exactly what is happening.  Removing the book then examining my actions.  If you take away this book then my actions obviously appear overbearing.    This book represented new territory for me and it was serious enough that I felt compelled to reach out to my friend and this forum.   I have offered my  philosophies yes but don't take this situation and remove the book and assume this is how every situation is dealt with in our home.   That isn't fair nor is accurate.    She is 14 years old not 24 and yes there are "Because I said so moments"   This situation is a far bigger deal than any of those because of this book and its contents. 

: LovesBNAmom  Tue Apr 15, 2014 - 11:26:25

: MeMyself  Tue Apr 15, 2014 - 09:28:58
Just speaking in general terms, NOT about your choice on this book:

But this exactly what is happening.  Removing the book then examining my actions.  If you take away this book then my actions obviously appear overbearing.    This book represented new territory for me and it was serious enough that I felt compelled to reach out to my friend and this forum.   I have offered my  philosophies yes but don't take this situation and remove the book and assume this is how every situation is dealt with in our home.   That isn't fair nor is accurate.    She is 14 years old not 24 and yes there are "Because I said so moments"   This situation is a far bigger deal than any of those because of this book and its contents. 

I don't assume anything about how things are run in your home because of the book.  I was speaking in terms of general raising of children in general...

please, I am beggin you to do away with the "because I said so" style though. Kids feel constrained by that, see it as hypocritical, *want* to be on our side and so they *want* to be treated with enough respect that they have our reasoning shared with them.

"Because I said so!!!" was said in my home growing up to silence me, abuse the authority given and to remind me that I was just a peon in the kingdom of mom and dad.

A better way to go IMO would be, (after hearing them out) "here are my concerns...(share them)..and I hope you understand I am not just arbitrarily taking this from you, but I do have to parent my convictions, and I believe this is not in your best interest at this time in your life, so Dad and I have to say no.  I may be wrong, I may be over reacting, but I love you and only want to protect you from what I see as harmful."
When I have put things this way, my kids anger melted away, they felt heard, they felt validated and respected as people, and they were more willing to obey and honor our wishes.  But, to each their own, I guess.

God bless!

My step father gave me one of the greatest lessons and examples I can remember.

At age 13 or 14 (what a coincidence!), I was camping out overnight with some buddies in a tent in their backyard.  My parents (Mom and step Dad) brought me something... but before getting all the way to the tent, they overheard us cussing like sailors, trying to be cool and "real men".

My mother went ballistic!  But my Step Father guided her away, and I stayed the rest of the night.

The next day, interestingly enough, my step father seemed to change.  He began cussing and using profanity at some of the most inopportune times.  It made me uncomfortable.  But he didn't just quit.  He kept it up to the point that I would become embarrassed.  THEN.... and only then, he let me respond to this seeming change in him.

I wasn't so stupid that I didn't fully understand what he was doing.  But he asked me "Why" he couldn't just cuss whenever he felt like it.  I caught on, and we had about a three hour discussion on what "being a REAL man" truly meant.

Oh, I've cussed since......... but never to just try to fit in or make myself "feel" like a man.

And, he never once told me I was wrong in any of my cussing that night... Never even said cussing was wrong.  He, instead, let me conclude for myself, what I thought about it, and to adjust my actions according to my own conclusions............... which we all know were REALLY his beliefs that he let me assimilate as my own.

Willie-  While I would have reacted more inline with your mother as opposed to your step father (Surprise) I can respect what he did by showing you the consequence of constantly cursing.   But my question to you is would he have elected this "assimilation" tactic had you boys been discovered with say pornography,  Cigarettes, or alcohol.   And this has been the point I have struggled to get through in this forum.  While you may view this book as an opportunity to open dialogue  I do not.   I see it as a gross,  cancerous, and mind numbing.   Just imagine you step father finding you with all 3,  because that is the level of concern this book generated in me. 

: LovesBNAmom  Tue Apr 15, 2014 - 15:37:04
Willie-  While I would have reacted more inline with your mother as opposed to your step father (Surprise) I can respect what he did by showing you the consequence of constantly cursing.   But my question to you is would he have elected this "assimilation" tactic had you boys been discovered with say pornography,  Cigarettes, or alcohol.   And this has been the point I have struggled to get through in this forum.  While you may view this book as an opportunity to open dialogue  I do not.   I see it as a gross,  cancerous, and mind numbing.   Just imagine you step father finding you with all 3,  because that is the level of concern this book generated in me.

I would say the reaction would be about the same for any of it.  My mother got a call at work from my grandmother telling her I was "puffing" a cigarette at around 8 or nine.  Mom told me how proud she was of me that I was becoming her little "man", and sat me down to teach me how to smoke a whole pack when she got home.  I didn't make it through one cigarette.  And I have always thought smoking is stupid, from that day forward.

My step dad caught me with a girl (not really doing anything) when I was 15.  Just his gentle look of, "this is not how men act", was all it took to keep me from that kind of foolishness for at least a year more.

Sex was never a deal with me because my mother really taught me, in quite some detail, all about the whole process from very early on... starting about 7 or 8.  So it was just a natural thing by the time I got to really noticing.

The point is that nothing was treated as "taboo", and I was never shamed for normal inclinations.  It is the basic tools of Satan, guilt and shame, with which we tend to warp our kids, and make them do what Adam and Eve did... hide from God, instead of seeking Him out for understanding of these new issues in our lives.

If we force them into the position of keeping secrets from us because we shame them for their feelings, then how in the world do we think they are going to ever turn to God for anything..... let alone ever begin to understand a relationship with Jesus?

: LovesBNAmom  Mon Apr 14, 2014 - 09:48:02
I spoke to my daughter.  I would like to thank those that offered advice.   I took my daughter out to eat.  Can't remember who offered this advice but the safety of a public place eased my tension and let me know that if there was an argument it would force both of us (probably more for me) to show some restraint.    Once I saw an opportunity I just approached it bluntly.  By saying "I read the book".   She was stunned and I just laid it all out there for her.   I did my best to be both concise and direct and state my objections and disappointment.    And yes disappointment.  I have a feeling I will get torched once again in this forum, but I am disappointed in her for one being lured or dared (as she put it), into reading this and two for not telling me.   I believe in censoring children from certain influence until they are better prepared.   

Many have said enlisting my friend was a mistake, it was not.   Just coming from church and having discussed certain ideas in youth group I believe made her more receptive.   Before responding   know that I am not so naïve to think that every thing a teenager says is authentic,  but I am not going to be afraid to protect  our core beliefs.  This idea that addressing this was somehow  going to scare her or push her away is ludicrous.   I would say sitting back and letting children wander aimlessly with out direction and consequences is lazy parenting.  Yes this was difficult and uncomfortable and there is tension as a result but it establish clear ground rules on what is and is not acceptable and I re-established myself as the authority in this house.     Her only punishment was to throw away her copy which she said she has given away.   She refused to tell me to whom and I am not sure I believe her.   Regardless I have to now think that another child is being exposed to this.     She also gave some vague attempt on how she got it.   I did have her watch while I threw away mine, and it upset her.   My friend suspects that there are three or four of the oldest children in youth group have read this and she is going to continue focus on the blatant manipulations.

Good for you. I have read most of this thread and I am very pleased with all of your actions. You are right, there is no acceptable answer for any child or anyone else pursuing a book that teaches heresies such as this book does. You have taught your child a good lesson in what is and what is not acceptable in life. And anything that contradicts Christ is UNACCEPTABLE, period, end of story. Your child will always remember this experience and it will serve her well later in life. Once again, I applaud you. Great job.

: Willie T  Tue Apr 15, 2014 - 16:17:46

: LovesBNAmom  Tue Apr 15, 2014 - 15:37:04
Willie-  While I would have reacted more inline with your mother as opposed to your step father (Surprise) I can respect what he did by showing you the consequence of constantly cursing.   But my question to you is would he have elected this "assimilation" tactic had you boys been discovered with say pornography,  Cigarettes, or alcohol.   And this has been the point I have struggled to get through in this forum.  While you may view this book as an opportunity to open dialogue  I do not.   I see it as a gross,  cancerous, and mind numbing.   Just imagine you step father finding you with all 3,  because that is the level of concern this book generated in me.

I would say the reaction would be about the same for any of it.  My mother got a call at work from my grandmother telling her I was "puffing" a cigarette at around 8 or nine.  Mom told me how proud she was of me that I was becoming her little "man", and sat me down to teach me how to smoke a whole pack when she got home.  I didn't make it through one cigarette.  And I have always thought smoking is stupid, from that day forward.

My step dad caught me with a girl (not really doing anything) when I was 15.  Just his gentle look of, "this is not how men act", was all it took to keep me from that kind of foolishness for at least a year more.

Sex was never a deal with me because my mother really taught me, in quite some detail, all about the whole process from very early on... starting about 7 or 8.  So it was just a natural thing by the time I got to really noticing.

The point is that nothing was treated as "taboo", and I was never shamed for normal inclinations.  It is the basic tools of Satan, guilt and shame, with which we tend to warp our kids, and make them do what Adam and Eve did... hide from God, instead of seeking Him out for understanding of these new issues in our lives.

If we force them into the position of keeping secrets from us because we shame them for their feelings, then how in the world do we think they are going to ever turn to God for anything..... let alone ever begin to understand a relationship with Jesus?

Willie, having bought up three lovely children, now in their late 20's and 30's, and remembering how my own parents acted, I have learnt that your approach is the one that works. The other approach leads to more secrecy, more hiding, less openness, and less sharing. We do need to let our growing teenage children spread their wings and have their own opinions and ideas as they grow, or else they will never mature or find their own faith. If we clamp down hard on the small things, that will result in many more problems in the future.(I have seen this happen time and time again). Once they are 18 and go to college or uni, we cant stop them doing what they want to when they want to, and then the ones who have been more restricted and controlled, often go the maddest and wildest once they are free of that parental control.
Its a balance, but we can find that middle ground with the right mix of love and wisdom. Loving consistent guidance is what is needed in my experience for teenagers, not heavy handedness or over control.
We need to also learn that our children are not us. They are not meant to be the same as us. They have their own journey in life and their own way of doing things. They have their own thoughts and their own ideas.  It wont be the way we do things and nor should it be.

: chosenone  Tue Apr 15, 2014 - 17:13:39

: Willie T  Tue Apr 15, 2014 - 16:17:46

: LovesBNAmom  Tue Apr 15, 2014 - 15:37:04
Willie-  While I would have reacted more inline with your mother as opposed to your step father (Surprise) I can respect what he did by showing you the consequence of constantly cursing.   But my question to you is would he have elected this "assimilation" tactic had you boys been discovered with say pornography,  Cigarettes, or alcohol.   And this has been the point I have struggled to get through in this forum.  While you may view this book as an opportunity to open dialogue  I do not.   I see it as a gross,  cancerous, and mind numbing.   Just imagine you step father finding you with all 3,  because that is the level of concern this book generated in me.

I would say the reaction would be about the same for any of it.  My mother got a call at work from my grandmother telling her I was "puffing" a cigarette at around 8 or nine.  Mom told me how proud she was of me that I was becoming her little "man", and sat me down to teach me how to smoke a whole pack when she got home.  I didn't make it through one cigarette.  And I have always thought smoking is stupid, from that day forward.

My step dad caught me with a girl (not really doing anything) when I was 15.  Just his gentle look of, "this is not how men act", was all it took to keep me from that kind of foolishness for at least a year more.

Sex was never a deal with me because my mother really taught me, in quite some detail, all about the whole process from very early on... starting about 7 or 8.  So it was just a natural thing by the time I got to really noticing.

The point is that nothing was treated as "taboo", and I was never shamed for normal inclinations.  It is the basic tools of Satan, guilt and shame, with which we tend to warp our kids, and make them do what Adam and Eve did... hide from God, instead of seeking Him out for understanding of these new issues in our lives.

If we force them into the position of keeping secrets from us because we shame them for their feelings, then how in the world do we think they are going to ever turn to God for anything..... let alone ever begin to understand a relationship with Jesus?

Willie, having bought up three lovely children, now in their late 20's and 30's, and remembering how my own parents acted, I have learnt that your approach is the one that works. The other approach leads to more secrecy, more hiding, less openness, and less sharing. We do need to let our growing teenage children spread their wings and have their own opinions and ideas as they grow, or else they will never mature or find their own faith. If we clamp down hard on the small things, that will result in many more problems in the future.(I have seen this happen time and time again). Once they are 18 and go to college or uni, we cant stop them doing what they want to when they want to, and then the ones who have been more restricted and controlled, often go the maddest and wildest once they are free of that parental control.
Its a balance, but we can find that middle ground with the right mix of love and wisdom. Loving consistent guidance is what is needed in my experience for teenagers, not heavy handedness or over control.
We need to also learn that our children are not us. They are not meant to be the same as us. They have their own journey in life and their own way of doing things. They have their own thoughts and their own ideas.  It wont be the way we do things and nor should it be.

Have you ever read the poem, The Prophet?  There is a section on children that begins.... "Your children are not your children...."

I'm off to church, right now, but I'll post it later on.  Really interesting.

: Willie T  Tue Apr 15, 2014 - 17:40:14
Have you ever read the poem, The Prophet?  There is a section on children that begins.... "Your children are not your children...."

I'm off to church, right now, but I'll post it later on.  Really interesting.

On Children
       And a woman who held a babe against her bosom said, "Speak to us of Children." And he said:
       Your children are not your children.
       They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
       They come through you but not from you,
       And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.
       You may give them your love but not your thoughts.
       For they have their own thoughts.
       You may house their bodies but not their souls,
       For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
       You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you.
       For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.
       You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.
       The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite, and He bends you with His might that His arrows may go swift and far.
       Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
       For even as he loves the arrow that flies, so He loves also the bow that is stable.

: Willie T  Tue Apr 15, 2014 - 20:57:56

: Willie T  Tue Apr 15, 2014 - 17:40:14
Have you ever read the poem, The Prophet?  There is a section on children that begins.... "Your children are not your children...."

I'm off to church, right now, but I'll post it later on.  Really interesting.

On Children
       And a woman who held a babe against her bosom said, "Speak to us of Children." And he said:
       Your children are not your children.
       They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
       They come through you but not from you,
       And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.
       You may give them your love but not your thoughts.
       For they have their own thoughts.
       You may house their bodies but not their souls,
       For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
       You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you.
       For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.
       You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.
       The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite, and He bends you with His might that His arrows may go swift and far.
       Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
       For even as he loves the arrow that flies, so He loves also the bow that is stable.

Very profound Willie.

: LovesBNAmom  Mon Apr 07, 2014 - 15:29:16
What is Humanism?

http://americanhumanist.org/Humanism (http://americanhumanist.org/Humanism)

Humanism is a progressive philosophy of life that, without theism and other supernatural beliefs, affirms our ability and responsibility to lead ethical lives of personal fulfillment that aspire to the greater good of humanity.

: chosenone  Tue Apr 15, 2014 - 23:05:56

: Willie T  Tue Apr 15, 2014 - 20:57:56

: Willie T  Tue Apr 15, 2014 - 17:40:14
Have you ever read the poem, The Prophet?  There is a section on children that begins.... "Your children are not your children...."

I'm off to church, right now, but I'll post it later on.  Really interesting.

On Children
       And a woman who held a babe against her bosom said, "Speak to us of Children." And he said:
       Your children are not your children.
       They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
       They come through you but not from you,
       And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.
       You may give them your love but not your thoughts.
       For they have their own thoughts.
       You may house their bodies but not their souls,
       For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
       You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you.
       For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.
       You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.
       The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite, and He bends you with His might that His arrows may go swift and far.
       Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
       For even as he loves the arrow that flies, so He loves also the bow that is stable.

Very profound Willie.

Yeah.  I always liked The Prophet.  Though not Christian in the way we would like to see it worded, very much a parallel of Christ's message.

Like this little book, a very good teaching tool, if thoughtfully handled through the eyes of Jesus.

: chosenone  Tue Apr 15, 2014 - 23:05:56

: Willie T  Tue Apr 15, 2014 - 20:57:56

: Willie T  Tue Apr 15, 2014 - 17:40:14
Have you ever read the poem, The Prophet?  There is a section on children that begins.... "Your children are not your children...."

I'm off to church, right now, but I'll post it later on.  Really interesting.

On Children
       And a woman who held a babe against her bosom said, "Speak to us of Children." And he said:
       Your children are not your children.
       They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
       They come through you but not from you,
       And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.
       You may give them your love but not your thoughts.
       For they have their own thoughts.
       You may house their bodies but not their souls,
       For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
       You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you.
       For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.
       You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.
       The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite, and He bends you with His might that His arrows may go swift and far.
       Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
       For even as he loves the arrow that flies, so He loves also the bow that is stable.

Very profound Willie.

ChosenOne,
If you have never heard this poem spoken aloud, may I offer you this rare gift.  As far as I know, this is no longer available.

Enjoy!

The Prophet By Kahlil Gibran Read by Richard Harris (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyQbprI9gfU#)

Well, this book will not go away.  Our pastor made some veiled references to it in his Wednesday Service.   Afterward a few of us discussed over coffee.    Much like this forum there were a few parents that disagreed with my tactics.  But we all agree it is unsettling how quickly  this book came out of nowhere and was disseminated  through our youth group. Our pastor's response was "God places obstacles not to stop us,  but to strengthen us by overcoming them. We must seize this opportunity not for judgment  but for counsel.  We must replace our resentment with compassion. "   He urged, as his wife had done to me, for all of us to read it.  (Ironic that a book I loathe because of its attack on church is being encouraged to be read in church).   Currently the plan is to continue to focus on the "Good Works" portion of this book both  verbally and in practice.   But he was adamant that we can not ignore  the author's this person with a computer's manipulation, but we must be delicate on how we proceed.   There was some discussion on allowing the children an opportunity to speak openly about  this book that may very well be the outcome.

I was reluctant to make this post because of some of the comments I have received in this forum.   But I have included this forum from the beginning and I felt it would have been cowardly not to continue.   Even though I know many will see an opportunity to say I told you so based on my pastor's response.  While I will always see this book as meritless, I do  have an immense level of respect for both my Pastor and his Wife. 

: LovesBNAmom  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 10:04:54
Well, this book will not go away.  Our pastor made some veiled references to it in his Wednesday Service.   Afterward a few of us discussed over coffee.    Much like this forum there were a few parents that disagreed with my tactics.  But we all agree it is unsettling how quickly  this book came out of nowhere and was disseminated  through our youth group. Our pastor's response was "God places obstacles not to stop us,  but to strengthen us by overcoming them. We must seize this opportunity not for judgment  but for counsel.  We must replace our resentment with compassion. "   He urged, as his wife had done to me, for all of us to read it.  (Ironic that a book I loathe because of its attack on church is being encouraged to be read in church).   Currently the plan is to continue to focus on the "Good Works" portion of this book both  verbally and in practice.   But he was adamant that we can not ignore  the author's this person with a computer's manipulation, but we must be delicate on how we proceed.   There was some discussion on allowing the children an opportunity to speak openly about  this book that may very well be the outcome.

I was reluctant to make this post because of some of the comments I have received in this forum.   But I have included this forum from the beginning and I felt it would have been cowardly not to continue.   Even though I know many will see an opportunity to say I told you so based on my pastor's response.  While I will always see this book as meritless, I do  have an immense level of respect for both my Pastor and his Wife. 

I am glad there will be more opportunity for dialog about it.

It is strange to me too that they would encourage everyone to read this book.  That is not what I would suggest.  That is, to me, like saying that there is this work called the Satanic Bible that we found out some of our kids are reading, so let's all read it, and focus on the parts we agree with.  Or perhaps a work by Aleister Crowley.  Or Mein Kampf.  Not that this book is on their level, but the concept is the same.  Something good can be gleaned out of almost anything; it is the devil that mixes evil with the good to make evil appear good, and that is how the original sin happened.

To me it would be enough for the pastor to read it only, and for him to be aware of it's dangerous teachings as well as it's good ideas, and to craft a sermon himself encouraging the good and explaining how the bad is false.  For example, give a sermon on the "why" of why going to Church to worship God on Sunday is important, and why serving the poor and needy is also important, and how you shouldn't do one without the other, how Jesus calls us to do both. 

He could even make it into a multi-part sermon series (which I know are common in some groups) so that all people would become aware, that everyone would hear the message.

But it is his charge to make that decision.  And in that sense I guess you have to live with that (as do other people in your group) but we shall see the end result.

I agree that it is important to treat our children with respect always, but I know that some things we passionately care about, and I think that passion too is good for them to see.  But ultimately our children should be led toward the true, and it is our job as parents to lead them that way, though they may reject it (to their detriment).  But charity (love) is such a powerful thing, as is knowing the true and good, that they should always be tied together.

: Catholica  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 10:42:08
To me it would be enough for the pastor to read it only, and for him to be aware of it's dangerous teachings as well as it's good ideas, and to craft a sermon himself encouraging the good and explaining how the bad is false.  For example, give a sermon on the "why" of why going to Church to worship God on Sunday is important, and why serving the poor and needy is also important, and how you shouldn't do one without the other, how Jesus calls us to do both. 

Usually protestant pastors encourage their congregations to search things out for themselves to make sure the direction they are leading is in the right way.  All that I have sat under have said things to the effect of "Search this out for yourself. If you find I am in error, I invite a dialog about it."

I would be *highly* suspect of a leader that just wanted to spoon feed his congregation, but not wish them to participate and think for themselves.

: LovesBNAmom  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 10:04:54
Well, this book will not go away.  Our pastor made some veiled references to it in his Wednesday Service.   Afterward a few of us discussed over coffee.    Much like this forum there were a few parents that disagreed with my tactics.  But we all agree it is unsettling how quickly  this book came out of nowhere and was disseminated  through our youth group. Our pastor's response was "God places obstacles not to stop us,  but to strengthen us by overcoming them. We must seize this opportunity not for judgment  but for counsel.  We must replace our resentment with compassion. "   He urged, as his wife had done to me, for all of us to read it.  (Ironic that a book I loathe because of its attack on church is being encouraged to be read in church).   Currently the plan is to continue to focus on the "Good Works" portion of this book both  verbally and in practice.   But he was adamant that we can not ignore  the author's this person with a computer's manipulation, but we must be delicate on how we proceed.   There was some discussion on allowing the children an opportunity to speak openly about  this book that may very well be the outcome.

I was reluctant to make this post because of some of the comments I have received in this forum.   But I have included this forum from the beginning and I felt it would have been cowardly not to continue.   Even though I know many will see an opportunity to say I told you so based on my pastor's response.  While I will always see this book as meritless, I do  have an immense level of respect for both my Pastor and his Wife.

I disagree with your pastor. We are not to willingly invite temptation into our lives in any way to "become stronger." That is tempting God, which Christ taught us not to do. Remember when the devil tempted Christ to throw himself off the temple pinnacle and Christ refused, saying, "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God."

Talking about the book is fine as long as you are quick to comdemn it as heresy while talking about it. That book is not acceptable to any Christian at all at any time.

Read the book - don't read the book.  ::uhh::

There may be some really dangerous stuff there.  Or there may not be. Or maybe it is just our opinion that it is dangerous.

There will always be something to tempt us away from the Lord.  If we pray for Him to "lead us not into temptation;" we should not take ourselves there either.  God has placed leaders in the body who are mature that can give an informed, discerned and spiritual summary without us going down that road.

Of all that I have read in this thread the thing that REALLY bothers me is someone appealing to Kahil Gibran - a famous islamic author. A pagan.

: MeMyself  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 10:52:29

: Catholica  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 10:42:08
To me it would be enough for the pastor to read it only, and for him to be aware of it's dangerous teachings as well as it's good ideas, and to craft a sermon himself encouraging the good and explaining how the bad is false.  For example, give a sermon on the "why" of why going to Church to worship God on Sunday is important, and why serving the poor and needy is also important, and how you shouldn't do one without the other, how Jesus calls us to do both. 

Usually protestant pastors encourage their congregations to search things out for themselves to make sure the direction they are leading is in the right way.  All that I have sat under have said things to the effect of "Search this out for yourself. If you find I am in error, I invite a dialog about it."

I would be *highly* suspect of a leader that just wanted to spoon feed his congregation, but not wish them to participate and think for themselves.

Well, maybe you should search out for yourself whether that method really works or not instead of just accepting it.   Start by counting the profound differences between 33,000 Protestant denominations (even between matters regarding salvation), asking yourself whether God is the author of confusion.  Then consider that he may have actually established a reliable authority from the time he walked among us so that we wouldn't have to determine those necessary truths revealed by God by ourselves (and thus create our own version of truth, i.e. denominations).

And explore the Catholic faith for yourself.  If you have any questions, even hard ones, you know I'm around to help.

: Catholica  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 11:53:04

: MeMyself  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 10:52:29

: Catholica  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 10:42:08
To me it would be enough for the pastor to read it only, and for him to be aware of it's dangerous teachings as well as it's good ideas, and to craft a sermon himself encouraging the good and explaining how the bad is false.  For example, give a sermon on the "why" of why going to Church to worship God on Sunday is important, and why serving the poor and needy is also important, and how you shouldn't do one without the other, how Jesus calls us to do both. 

Usually protestant pastors encourage their congregations to search things out for themselves to make sure the direction they are leading is in the right way.  All that I have sat under have said things to the effect of "Search this out for yourself. If you find I am in error, I invite a dialog about it."

I would be *highly* suspect of a leader that just wanted to spoon feed his congregation, but not wish them to participate and think for themselves.

Well, maybe you should search out for yourself whether that method really works or not instead of just accepting it.   Start by counting the profound differences between 33,000 Protestant denominations (even between matters regarding salvation), asking yourself whether God is the author of confusion.  Then consider that he may have actually established a reliable authority from the time he walked among us so that we wouldn't have to determine those necessary truths revealed by God by ourselves (and thus create our own version of truth, i.e. denominations).

And explore the Catholic faith for yourself.  If you have any questions, even hard ones, you know I'm around to help.

???

I wasn't attacking you, your church or your faith, I was explaining why he would like his congregation to follow him in reading it...

: MeMyself  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:11:30

: Catholica  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 11:53:04

: MeMyself  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 10:52:29

: Catholica  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 10:42:08
To me it would be enough for the pastor to read it only, and for him to be aware of it's dangerous teachings as well as it's good ideas, and to craft a sermon himself encouraging the good and explaining how the bad is false.  For example, give a sermon on the "why" of why going to Church to worship God on Sunday is important, and why serving the poor and needy is also important, and how you shouldn't do one without the other, how Jesus calls us to do both. 

Usually protestant pastors encourage their congregations to search things out for themselves to make sure the direction they are leading is in the right way.  All that I have sat under have said things to the effect of "Search this out for yourself. If you find I am in error, I invite a dialog about it."

I would be *highly* suspect of a leader that just wanted to spoon feed his congregation, but not wish them to participate and think for themselves.

Well, maybe you should search out for yourself whether that method really works or not instead of just accepting it.   Start by counting the profound differences between 33,000 Protestant denominations (even between matters regarding salvation), asking yourself whether God is the author of confusion.  Then consider that he may have actually established a reliable authority from the time he walked among us so that we wouldn't have to determine those necessary truths revealed by God by ourselves (and thus create our own version of truth, i.e. denominations).

And explore the Catholic faith for yourself.  If you have any questions, even hard ones, you know I'm around to help.

???

I wasn't attacking you, your church or your faith, I was explaining why he would like his congregation to follow him in reading it...

I didn't say that you were, I'm just helping you see the logical conclusion of the method you are suggesting.  Are you sure that a leader's teachings shouldn't be trusted?  That it really makes sense to always be encouraged to explore things for ourselves?

A pastor's word it seems should be trusted, unless the word itself rings false.  So it makes sense for a pastor to be preaching truth with reasonable hope that people will listen to him.

Like, for example (if I may use it again) say instead of this book, her daughter had been reading the Satanic Bible.  Or what if it was erotica.  Would it make sense for the pastor to say, this needs to be addressed, so everyone should get a copy and read it, and then we can have a dialog?  Really?

: Catholica  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:25:01

: MeMyself  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:11:30

: Catholica  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 11:53:04

: MeMyself  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 10:52:29

: Catholica  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 10:42:08
To me it would be enough for the pastor to read it only, and for him to be aware of it's dangerous teachings as well as it's good ideas, and to craft a sermon himself encouraging the good and explaining how the bad is false.  For example, give a sermon on the "why" of why going to Church to worship God on Sunday is important, and why serving the poor and needy is also important, and how you shouldn't do one without the other, how Jesus calls us to do both. 

Usually protestant pastors encourage their congregations to search things out for themselves to make sure the direction they are leading is in the right way.  All that I have sat under have said things to the effect of "Search this out for yourself. If you find I am in error, I invite a dialog about it."

I would be *highly* suspect of a leader that just wanted to spoon feed his congregation, but not wish them to participate and think for themselves.

Well, maybe you should search out for yourself whether that method really works or not instead of just accepting it.   Start by counting the profound differences between 33,000 Protestant denominations (even between matters regarding salvation), asking yourself whether God is the author of confusion.  Then consider that he may have actually established a reliable authority from the time he walked among us so that we wouldn't have to determine those necessary truths revealed by God by ourselves (and thus create our own version of truth, i.e. denominations).

And explore the Catholic faith for yourself.  If you have any questions, even hard ones, you know I'm around to help.

???

I wasn't attacking you, your church or your faith, I was explaining why he would like his congregation to follow him in reading it...

I didn't say that you were, I'm just helping you see the logical conclusion of the method you are suggesting.  Are you sure that a leader's teachings shouldn't be trusted?  That it really makes sense to always be encouraged to explore things for ourselves?

I didn't say it shouldn't be trusted, but that we are encouraged to search Truth out for ourselves, to see if the leading is going in a godly direction.  A humble leader wants input from their followers and redirection if need be as well.  There is not a thing wrong with that.  Blind following of humans can lead to very dangerous places.  Cults and the like do that (also that horrible church...Westburrough, I think its called).  God gave each of us a mind and He wants us to use them. :)

: Catholica  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:25:01A pastor's word it seems should be trusted, unless the word itself rings false.  So it makes sense for a pastor to be preaching truth with reasonable hope that people will listen to him.

SURE! And, they also want us to learn to study and search scripture on our own...not to just remain as infants being spoon fed. 

: Catholica  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:25:01Like, for example (if I may use it again) say instead of this book, her daughter had been reading the Satanic Bible.  Or what if it was erotica.  Would it make sense for the pastor to say, this needs to be addressed, so everyone should get a copy and read it, and then we can have a dialog?  Really?

Apples to oranges.

: Catholica  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:25:01
I didn't say that you were, I'm just helping you see the logical conclusion of the method you are suggesting.  Are you sure that a leader's teachings shouldn't be trusted?  That it really makes sense to always be encouraged to explore things for ourselves?

A pastor's word it seems should be trusted, unless the word itself rings false.  So it makes sense for a pastor to be preaching truth with reasonable hope that people will listen to him.

Like, for example (if I may use it again) say instead of this book, her daughter had been reading the Satanic Bible.  Or what if it was erotica.  Would it make sense for the pastor to say, this needs to be addressed, so everyone should get a copy and read it, and then we can have a dialog?  Really?

Catholica - that is one of the MAJOR weaknesses of protestantism IMO - especially American evangelical protestantism. It denies the body.  Everyone is an individual and there is little or no connectedness between them so everyone has to constantly reinvent the wheel so to speak for themselves.

I heard one guy who was trying to combat that attitude describe a local congregation as "buying a motorcycle in a basket."  All the parts are there but there is no function because they are not assembled together. He called them a "collection" rather than an assembly.

"Forsake not the assembling of yourselves together as is the habit of some ..."

: MeMyself  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:30:07

: Catholica  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:25:01Like, for example (if I may use it again) say instead of this book, her daughter had been reading the Satanic Bible.  Or what if it was erotica.  Would it make sense for the pastor to say, this needs to be addressed, so everyone should get a copy and read it, and then we can have a dialog?  Really?

Apples to oranges.

That is your opinion, and those who share it probably do because they like the message in the book.

But the commandment cannot be set aside.  Yes we can do good on the Lord's Day, but thinking that we can worship God through works of charity alone (the message of this book) violates the commandment to observe the "Lord's Day" as a day of rest.

If you put it in perspective, the commandments themselves have a hierarchy.  The commandment to observe a day of rest for the Lord (4th in your reckoning, likely) is above the commandment to not commit adultery (the "7th") or not covet (the "10th") (each which might be an occasion of sin for some  from reading erotica).  So to introduce the idea that it is ok to break the 4th commandment is worse than encouraging people to read erotica.

: Catholica  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:39:59

: MeMyself  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:30:07

: Catholica  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:25:01Like, for example (if I may use it again) say instead of this book, her daughter had been reading the Satanic Bible.  Or what if it was erotica.  Would it make sense for the pastor to say, this needs to be addressed, so everyone should get a copy and read it, and then we can have a dialog?  Really?

Apples to oranges.

That is your opinion, and those who share it probably do because they like the message in the book.

Oh.my.gosh! What is up with that? LOL.

   

: Catholica  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:39:59But the commandment cannot be set aside.  Yes we can do good on the Lord's Day, but thinking that we can worship God through works of charity alone (the message of this book) violates the commandment to observe the "Lord's Day" as a day of rest.  If you put it in perspective, the commandments themselves have a hierarchy.  The commandment to observe a day of rest for the Lord (4th in your reckoning, likely) is above the commandment to not commit adultery (the "7th") or not covet (the "10th") (each which might be an occasion of sin for some  from reading erotica).  So to introduce the idea that it is ok to break the 4th commandment is worse than encouraging people to read erotica.

have you read it? 

I feel a need to correct my post in defense of my friend.  Encourage may have not been the best choice of words.   Almost all of the parents there last night including he and his wife have read it all ready.   He was saying just as his wife had recommended to me for us to understand what we are dealing with.  I believe his exact words were " I know many of you have read this book already and to the others you may want to take a look at it or speak with one of the others who had."   I am obviously uncomfortable with this approach and I feel I may have misrepresented him earlier.   But make no mistake he is equally concerned, and I have no doubt that he and his wife were called into service.   I guess I applied some of my own frustration on this topic that I am growing increasingly tired of.

: MeMyself  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:48:04

: Catholica  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:39:59

: MeMyself  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:30:07

: Catholica  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:25:01Like, for example (if I may use it again) say instead of this book, her daughter had been reading the Satanic Bible.  Or what if it was erotica.  Would it make sense for the pastor to say, this needs to be addressed, so everyone should get a copy and read it, and then we can have a dialog?  Really?

Apples to oranges.

That is your opinion, and those who share it probably do because they like the message in the book.

Oh.my.gosh! What is up with that? LOL.

Do you go to Church every Sunday?

   

: MeMyself  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:48:04

: Catholica  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:39:59But the commandment cannot be set aside.  Yes we can do good on the Lord's Day, but thinking that we can worship God through works of charity alone (the message of this book) violates the commandment to observe the "Lord's Day" as a day of rest.  If you put it in perspective, the commandments themselves have a hierarchy.  The commandment to observe a day of rest for the Lord (4th in your reckoning, likely) is above the commandment to not commit adultery (the "7th") or not covet (the "10th") (each which might be an occasion of sin for some  from reading erotica).  So to introduce the idea that it is ok to break the 4th commandment is worse than encouraging people to read erotica.

have you read it? 

The Title and the description are enough to know. 

"A Waste of Time Called Church".

Description:
Maybe you are the one that can make sense of this. I know I can't. All I can really do is tell the truth about who he was and maybe offer some insight into why he did it. Tell you about an awkward boy with endless questions that evolved in to a narcotic pothead with one simple idea. "I will help people on Sunday instead of going to church."
He didn't shout it from a soap box. He didn't claim a path nor advise of one. He just did it, but in doing it people saw, and in seeing they grew curious. Their curiosity gave way to participation, and the idea gave way to a movement. A movement that when expanded, created an image of empty pews across the country, and those 60 million Americans that filled them every Sunday, setting out into their communities with one common goal; to help anyone that needed a hand.
A movement that traded Sunday bests for sweat trenched t-shirts and dust covered jeans. A movement that felt compelled to have a leader, no matter how much he pleaded with them they didn't.

: LovesBNAmom  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 13:04:56
I feel a need to correct my post in defense of my friend.  Encourage may have not been the best choice of words.   Almost all of the parents there last night including he and his wife have read it all ready.   He was saying just as his wife had recommended to me for us to understand what we are dealing with.  I believe his exact words were " I know many of you have read this book already and to the others you may want to take a look at it or speak with one of the others who had."   I am obviously uncomfortable with this approach and I feel I may have misrepresented him earlier.   But make no mistake he is equally concerned, and I have no doubt that he and his wife were called into service.   I guess I applied some of my own frustration on this topic that I am growing increasingly tired of.

Understood and good to know.  I am sure that you are tired.  There is really no obligation to maintain the thread at this point; I think we would all understand and not judge you if you didn't keep it up.  Online discussions often lose their usefulness after awhile.

Prayers from me for you and your family.

: Catholica  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 13:15:46

: MeMyself  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:48:04

: Catholica  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:39:59

: MeMyself  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:30:07

: Catholica  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:25:01Like, for example (if I may use it again) say instead of this book, her daughter had been reading the Satanic Bible.  Or what if it was erotica.  Would it make sense for the pastor to say, this needs to be addressed, so everyone should get a copy and read it, and then we can have a dialog?  Really?

Apples to oranges.

That is your opinion, and those who share it probably do because they like the message in the book.

Oh.my.gosh! What is up with that? LOL.

Do you go to Church every Sunday?

Do you?

And, honestly, what does that have to do with the update or about the book?



   

: Catholica  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 13:15:46

: MeMyself  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:48:04

: Catholica  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:39:59But the commandment cannot be set aside.  Yes we can do good on the Lord's Day, but thinking that we can worship God through works of charity alone (the message of this book) violates the commandment to observe the "Lord's Day" as a day of rest.  If you put it in perspective, the commandments themselves have a hierarchy.  The commandment to observe a day of rest for the Lord (4th in your reckoning, likely) is above the commandment to not commit adultery (the "7th") or not covet (the "10th") (each which might be an occasion of sin for some  from reading erotica).  So to introduce the idea that it is ok to break the 4th commandment is worse than encouraging people to read erotica.

have you read it? 

The Title and the description are enough to know. 

"A Waste of Time Called Church".

Description:
Maybe you are the one that can make sense of this. I know I can't. All I can really do is tell the truth about who he was and maybe offer some insight into why he did it. Tell you about an awkward boy with endless questions that evolved in to a narcotic pothead with one simple idea. "I will help people on Sunday instead of going to church."
He didn't shout it from a soap box. He didn't claim a path nor advise of one. He just did it, but in doing it people saw, and in seeing they grew curious. Their curiosity gave way to participation, and the idea gave way to a movement. A movement that when expanded, created an image of empty pews across the country, and those 60 million Americans that filled them every Sunday, setting out into their communities with one common goal; to help anyone that needed a hand.
A movement that traded Sunday bests for sweat trenched t-shirts and dust covered jeans. A movement that felt compelled to have a leader, no matter how much he pleaded with them they didn't.

I've no dog in this fight.  I am not drawn to its message nor do I have a desire to read it...but if my kids were and they wanted me to, I would.  I would so that we could talk about what appeals to them, what concerns them about church, and know where their hearts are...and I dont' think there is anything wrong with that.

: MeMyself  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 13:24:04

: Catholica  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 13:15:46

: MeMyself  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:48:04

: Catholica  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:39:59

: MeMyself  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:30:07

: Catholica  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:25:01Like, for example (if I may use it again) say instead of this book, her daughter had been reading the Satanic Bible.  Or what if it was erotica.  Would it make sense for the pastor to say, this needs to be addressed, so everyone should get a copy and read it, and then we can have a dialog?  Really?

Apples to oranges.

That is your opinion, and those who share it probably do because they like the message in the book.

Oh.my.gosh! What is up with that? LOL.

Do you go to Church every Sunday?

Do you?

And, honestly, what does that have to do with the update or about the book?

Yes, I go every Sunday, and some days that aren't Sunday in addition.

It has to do with the book because the book is saying that going to Church on Sunday is a waste of time.  But God says that you break a commandment by not going to Church on Sunday.  The book is suggesting to people that they break the commandment.  As with many commandments, people who break them are more likely to not see the problem with suggesting that other people break them.
 

: MeMyself  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 13:24:04

: Catholica  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 13:15:46

: MeMyself  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:48:04

: Catholica  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:39:59But the commandment cannot be set aside.  Yes we can do good on the Lord's Day, but thinking that we can worship God through works of charity alone (the message of this book) violates the commandment to observe the "Lord's Day" as a day of rest.  If you put it in perspective, the commandments themselves have a hierarchy.  The commandment to observe a day of rest for the Lord (4th in your reckoning, likely) is above the commandment to not commit adultery (the "7th") or not covet (the "10th") (each which might be an occasion of sin for some  from reading erotica).  So to introduce the idea that it is ok to break the 4th commandment is worse than encouraging people to read erotica.

have you read it? 

The Title and the description are enough to know. 

"A Waste of Time Called Church".

Description:
Maybe you are the one that can make sense of this. I know I can't. All I can really do is tell the truth about who he was and maybe offer some insight into why he did it. Tell you about an awkward boy with endless questions that evolved in to a narcotic pothead with one simple idea. "I will help people on Sunday instead of going to church."
He didn't shout it from a soap box. He didn't claim a path nor advise of one. He just did it, but in doing it people saw, and in seeing they grew curious. Their curiosity gave way to participation, and the idea gave way to a movement. A movement that when expanded, created an image of empty pews across the country, and those 60 million Americans that filled them every Sunday, setting out into their communities with one common goal; to help anyone that needed a hand.
A movement that traded Sunday bests for sweat trenched t-shirts and dust covered jeans. A movement that felt compelled to have a leader, no matter how much he pleaded with them they didn't.

I've no dog in this fight.  I am not drawn to its message nor do I have a desire to read it...but if my kids were and they wanted me to, I would.  I would so that we could talk about what appeals to them, what concerns them about church, and know where their hearts are...and I dont' think there is anything wrong with that.

Ok, but I wasn't specifically speaking of you, but "others who share your opinion".

That being said, you should be concerned with the message in the book, because it suggests to people that they break God's commandment.

: Catholica  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 13:32:26
That being said, you should be concerned with the message in the book, because it suggests to people that they break God's commandment.

Ok. Thanks for your thoughts.

: LovesBNAmom  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 10:04:54
Well, this book will not go away.  Our pastor made some veiled references to it in his Wednesday Service.   Afterward a few of us discussed over coffee.    Much like this forum there were a few parents that disagreed with my tactics.  But we all agree it is unsettling how quickly  this book came out of nowhere and was disseminated  through our youth group. Our pastor's response was "God places obstacles not to stop us,  but to strengthen us by overcoming them. We must seize this opportunity not for judgment  but for counsel.  We must replace our resentment with compassion. "   He urged, as his wife had done to me, for all of us to read it.  (Ironic that a book I loathe because of its attack on church is being encouraged to be read in church).   Currently the plan is to continue to focus on the "Good Works" portion of this book both  verbally and in practice.   But he was adamant that we can not ignore  the author's this person with a computer's manipulation, but we must be delicate on how we proceed.   There was some discussion on allowing the children an opportunity to speak openly about  this book that may very well be the outcome.

I was reluctant to make this post because of some of the comments I have received in this forum.   But I have included this forum from the beginning and I felt it would have been cowardly not to continue.   Even though I know many will see an opportunity to say I told you so based on my pastor's response.  While I will always see this book as meritless, I do  have an immense level of respect for both my Pastor and his Wife. 

While I have very different ideas than you as to how to handle such situations, dialogue is vital. However I wouldn't read Harry Potter for example, just because some young people in the church may be reading it.  I would research what is in the book to have some idea, but I wouldnt read it.
Should all of the men in the church look at porn because they may understand why a few men are tempted to do it and they can all discuss it? I know a pastor who did just that, and he got addicted.  ::eek::
AS I said its a difficult balance when dealing with these things with teenagers.

: Catholica  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:39:59

: MeMyself  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:30:07

: Catholica  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:25:01Like, for example (if I may use it again) say instead of this book, her daughter had been reading the Satanic Bible.  Or what if it was erotica.  Would it make sense for the pastor to say, this needs to be addressed, so everyone should get a copy and read it, and then we can have a dialog?  Really?

Apples to oranges.

That is your opinion, and those who share it probably do because they like the message in the book.

But the commandment cannot be set aside.  Yes we can do good on the Lord's Day, but thinking that we can worship God through works of charity alone (the message of this book) violates the commandment to observe the "Lord's Day" as a day of rest.

If you put it in perspective, the commandments themselves have a hierarchy.  The commandment to observe a day of rest for the Lord (4th in your reckoning, likely) is above the commandment to not commit adultery (the "7th") or not covet (the "10th") (each which might be an occasion of sin for some  from reading erotica).  So to introduce the idea that it is ok to break the 4th commandment is worse than encouraging people to read erotica.

However Paul so clearly says that some will see some days as different or 'special', and some will think of each day the same, and that neither are wrong.

: chosenone  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 13:51:26

: Catholica  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:39:59

: MeMyself  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:30:07

: Catholica  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:25:01Like, for example (if I may use it again) say instead of this book, her daughter had been reading the Satanic Bible.  Or what if it was erotica.  Would it make sense for the pastor to say, this needs to be addressed, so everyone should get a copy and read it, and then we can have a dialog?  Really?

Apples to oranges.

That is your opinion, and those who share it probably do because they like the message in the book.

But the commandment cannot be set aside.  Yes we can do good on the Lord's Day, but thinking that we can worship God through works of charity alone (the message of this book) violates the commandment to observe the "Lord's Day" as a day of rest.

If you put it in perspective, the commandments themselves have a hierarchy.  The commandment to observe a day of rest for the Lord (4th in your reckoning, likely) is above the commandment to not commit adultery (the "7th") or not covet (the "10th") (each which might be an occasion of sin for some  from reading erotica).  So to introduce the idea that it is ok to break the 4th commandment is worse than encouraging people to read erotica.

However Paul so clearly says that some will see some days as different or 'special', and some will think of each day the same, and that neither are wrong.

Interesting interpretation; but I don't think the text actually says that.  Unless you are thinking of a different text than I am.  What verse(s) are you referring to?

: Catholica  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:25:01

: MeMyself  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:11:30

: Catholica  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 11:53:04

: MeMyself  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 10:52:29

: Catholica  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 10:42:08
To me it would be enough for the pastor to read it only, and for him to be aware of it's dangerous teachings as well as it's good ideas, and to craft a sermon himself encouraging the good and explaining how the bad is false.  For example, give a sermon on the "why" of why going to Church to worship God on Sunday is important, and why serving the poor and needy is also important, and how you shouldn't do one without the other, how Jesus calls us to do both. 

Usually protestant pastors encourage their congregations to search things out for themselves to make sure the direction they are leading is in the right way.  All that I have sat under have said things to the effect of "Search this out for yourself. If you find I am in error, I invite a dialog about it."

I would be *highly* suspect of a leader that just wanted to spoon feed his congregation, but not wish them to participate and think for themselves.

Well, maybe you should search out for yourself whether that method really works or not instead of just accepting it.   Start by counting the profound differences between 33,000 Protestant denominations (even between matters regarding salvation), asking yourself whether God is the author of confusion.  Then consider that he may have actually established a reliable authority from the time he walked among us so that we wouldn't have to determine those necessary truths revealed by God by ourselves (and thus create our own version of truth, i.e. denominations).

And explore the Catholic faith for yourself.  If you have any questions, even hard ones, you know I'm around to help.

???

I wasn't attacking you, your church or your faith, I was explaining why he would like his congregation to follow him in reading it...

I didn't say that you were, I'm just helping you see the logical conclusion of the method you are suggesting.  Are you sure that a leader's teachings shouldn't be trusted?  That it really makes sense to always be encouraged to explore things for ourselves?

A pastor's word it seems should be trusted, unless the word itself rings false.  So it makes sense for a pastor to be preaching truth with reasonable hope that people will listen to him.

Like, for example (if I may use it again) say instead of this book, her daughter had been reading the Satanic Bible.  Or what if it was erotica.  Would it make sense for the pastor to say, this needs to be addressed, so everyone should get a copy and read it, and then we can have a dialog?  Really?

What is important about the three final remarks Pastor Alan made at the end of the interview?  You can discuss this with a teenager, can't you?  Oh, you can't?

: Catholica  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 13:58:00

: chosenone  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 13:51:26

: Catholica  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:39:59

: MeMyself  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:30:07

: Catholica  Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:25:01Like, for example (if I may use it again) say instead of this book, her daughter had been reading the Satanic Bible.  Or what if it was erotica.  Would it make sense for the pastor to say, this needs to be addressed, so everyone should get a copy and read it, and then we can have a dialog?  Really?

Apples to oranges.

That is your opinion, and those who share it probably do because they like the message in the book.

But the commandment cannot be set aside.  Yes we can do good on the Lord's Day, but thinking that we can worship God through works of charity alone (the message of this book) violates the commandment to observe the "Lord's Day" as a day of rest.

If you put it in perspective, the commandments themselves have a hierarchy.  The commandment to observe a day of rest for the Lord (4th in your reckoning, likely) is above the commandment to not commit adultery (the "7th") or not covet (the "10th") (each which might be an occasion of sin for some  from reading erotica).  So to introduce the idea that it is ok to break the 4th commandment is worse than encouraging people to read erotica.

However Paul so clearly says that some will see some days as different or 'special', and some will think of each day the same, and that neither are wrong.

Interesting interpretation; but I don't think the text actually says that.  Unless you are thinking of a different text than I am.  What verse(s) are you referring to?

I thought I had already posted this but here goes again
Romans 14v5
In the same way, some think one day is more holy than another day, while others think every day is alike. You should each be fully convinced that whichever day you choose is acceptable

: chosenone  Sat Apr 19, 2014 - 12:48:16
I thought I had already posted this but here goes again
Romans 14v5
In the same way, some think one day is more holy than another day, while others think every day is alike. You should each be fully convinced that whichever day you choose is acceptable

That was in the thread you broke off of this one.