I have come across a Scripture that I think needs to be reinterpreted by the Christian community. These are MATT 19:9-12. The word "eunuch" in verse 12 is usually taken to mean, "Those who have the Gift to remain unmarried", however, I argue that it should be taken literally. Taken as "The Gift" it doesn't make sense. By taking it literally and interpreting the verse 10 word, "marry", as a "code-word" for "have sex" gives a better picture for what the Lord Jesus has shown me.
In modern-day terms: "Those men who deliberately make themselves sterile in order to avoid fathering any children or fathering more children are forbidden by the Lord from have sex in their marriage, and, if they have not fathered ANY children, are forbidden from having sex for the rest of their lives."
It says nothing about women, but to make a female eunuch would be lethal to the woman in Biblical times.
======== See Posts #46 and #49 To Participate ========================
I was shown these verses by the Lord 28 years after I had my vasectomy == The Above is True!
I disagree
I disagree by reason of the point you make. Making one's self a eunuch for the kingdom means you are forgoing sex to be a more effective servant for the Kingdom of God. To get a vas so you can have sex without children is the opposite; one cannot effectively serve the kingdom of God when one is out there fornicating.
You have missed the point. If "eunuch" meant "Gift to remain unmarried", each gift must be given by God. But how can a eunuch be made that way by others (NIV 2011)? That is, how can a mere human being give that Gift? He can't! The Gift must be given by God! Therefore, the "Gift" interpretation of eunuch doesn't make sense.
I also wish to add a Post Script:
The term "forbidden" may encompass many things: "impotence", "a wife's rejection", "a wife's refusal to have sex on a permanent basis", "for unbelievers: no bar-room pick-ups", "long-term depression", in short, "any number of things at the Lord's disposal".
: SuperEddy Sun Aug 03, 2014 - 19:23:57
I was shown these verses by the Lord 28 years after I had my vasectomy == The Above is True!
"He that is able to receive it, let him receive it"...V12~You obviously have not receive what these scriptures are saying.
"and there be eunuchs which have made themselves eunuchs"~
Not in a literal sense, in which the words are
not to be taken, as they were by Origen; who though otherwise too much pursued the allegorical way of interpreting Scripture, here took it literally, and castrated himself ; But here it means such, who having the gift of continency without mutilating their bodies, or indulging any unnatural lusts, can live chastely without the use of women, and choose celibacy.
Paul said:
"For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper GIFT OF GOD, one after this manner, and another after that." I Corinthians 7:7
: SuperEddy Sun Aug 03, 2014 - 19:23:57
In modern-day terms: "Those men who deliberately make themselves sterile in order to avoid fathering any children or fathering more children are forbidden by the Lord from have sex in their marriage,..."
Can you please explain why
marital sex is forbidden in this case?
: Red Baker Mon Aug 04, 2014 - 06:07:23
Paul said: "For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper GIFT OF GOD, one after this manner, and another after that." I Corinthians 7:7
Quick note on the underlying greek: the word "gift" in this verse is
charisma, the same word 5 chapters later is used to describe healing, prophecy, miracles, etc.
IOW, you can no more choose to be celebate than you can choose to have the gift of miraculous healing.
: Red Baker Mon Aug 04, 2014 - 06:07:23
Not in a literal sense, in which the words are not to be taken, as they were by Origen; who though otherwise too much pursued the allegorical way of interpreting Scripture, here took it literally, and castrated himself ;
I thought that was Jerome. Perhaps it was both.
In any event, this is an example of someone who apparently did NOT have that charismatic gift trying to force it on themselves.
The best way that I understand it is that it is an interruption of the flow of life and, therefore, the "flow" of sex is also interrupted. Christian marriage only ends by the death of a spouse (legally). It can also end in divorce, but no re-marriage is possible (legally). If, either, the wife dies or the husband gets a divorce, and, the husband re-marries, he can have sex with his new wife as long as he has fathered at least one child. If he has no children, he cannot have sex even with his new wife.
: DaveW Mon Aug 04, 2014 - 06:44:45
: Red Baker Mon Aug 04, 2014 - 06:07:23
Paul said: "For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper GIFT OF GOD, one after this manner, and another after that." I Corinthians 7:7
Quick note on the underlying greek: the word "gift" in this verse is charisma, the same word 5 chapters later is used to describe healing, prophecy, miracles, etc.
IOW, you can no more choose to be celebate than you can choose to have the gift of miraculous healing.
YES!!! This is exactly my point! Being made a "Gift Eunuch" by others (other men) is impossible! Only God can make a "Gift Eunuch" THAT IS WHY THE "Gift Eunuch" CONCEPT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE!
: SuperEddy Mon Aug 04, 2014 - 11:09:53
The best way that I understand it is that it is an interruption of the flow of life and, therefore, the "flow" of sex is also interrupted. Christian marriage only ends by the death of a spouse (legally). It can also end in divorce, but no re-marriage is possible (legally). If, either, the wife dies or the husband gets a divorce, and, the husband re-marries, he can have sex with his new wife as long as he has fathered at least one child. If he has no children, he cannot have sex even with his new wife.
Wow. that is the most screwed up version of this I have heard in a long time. If you take that last sentance literally; it makes that husband violate several direct biblical commands:
"Be fruitful and multiply" Genesis 1:28; 9:1
"Shall not diminish her ... conjugal rights." Exodus 21:10
"The husband must fulfill his duty to his wife" 1 Corinthians 7:3
The scriptures know nothing of a sexless marriage. That idea was invented by "church fathers" in the 2nd and 3rd centuries who had intentionally lost any clue of how the NT scriptures (and the OT scriptures as well) were understood in their proper first century Jewish setting.
BTW - Jesus, James, Peter and Paul ALL were raised in the synagogue and would have been taught that sex is a wife's right and a husband's responsibility. And that if she was not "getting enough," she could sue in a rabbinic court to make him do it more, even change jobs if that was taking him away from home too much or left him to tired to perform. The minimum frequency of sex was actually written into the "Ketubah" or marriage contract.
: SuperEddy Mon Aug 04, 2014 - 11:09:53
The best way that I understand it is that it is an interruption of the flow of life and, therefore, the "flow" of sex is also interrupted. Christian marriage only ends by the death of a spouse (legally). It can also end in divorce, but no re-marriage is possible (legally). If, either, the wife dies or the husband gets a divorce, and, the husband re-marries, he can have sex with his new wife as long as he has fathered at least one child. If he has no children, he cannot have sex even with his new wife.
Who put that into your mind? Why do men marry? Hint~
1 Corinthians 7:2,9.
The scriptures know nothing of a sexless marriage.
Amen.
The primary (but not sole) purpose of marriage is for the pro-creation of children.
With that in mind, I would argue that v.12 about men who were "made eunuchs by others" in context means not that men who have had a vasectomy cannot have sex with their wives, but rather that they cannot marry someone, that is, until they had their vasectomy reversed. At that point, even if the reversal fails, they could marry someone. And if someone is married then it behooves them to repent from the sin of vasectomy (which is like castration) and make reparation by having the vasectomy reversed.
: johndoo Mon Aug 04, 2014 - 05:16:43
I disagree
Why? Please explain in detail. I'd like to hear from you.
SE
: DaveW Mon Aug 04, 2014 - 12:00:57
: SuperEddy Mon Aug 04, 2014 - 11:09:53
The best way that I understand it is that it is an interruption of the flow of life and, therefore, the "flow" of sex is also interrupted. Christian marriage only ends by the death of a spouse (legally). It can also end in divorce, but no re-marriage is possible (legally). If, either, the wife dies or the husband gets a divorce, and, the husband re-marries, he can have sex with his new wife as long as he has fathered at least one child. If he has no children, he cannot have sex even with his new wife.
Wow. that is the most screwed up version of this I have heard in a long time. If you take that last sentance literally; it makes that husband violate several direct biblical commands:
"Be fruitful and multiply" Genesis 1:28; 9:1
"Shall not diminish her ... conjugal rights." Exodus 21:10
"The husband must fulfill his duty to his wife" 1 Corinthians 7:3
The scriptures know nothing of a sexless marriage. That idea was invented by "church fathers" in the 2nd and 3rd centuries who had intentionally lost any clue of how the NT scriptures (and the OT scriptures as well) were understood in their proper first century Jewish setting.
BTW - Jesus, James, Peter and Paul ALL were raised in the synagogue and would have been taught that sex is a wife's right and a husband's responsibility. And that if she was not "getting enough," she could sue in a rabbinic court to make him do it more, even change jobs if that was taking him away from home too much or left him to tired to perform. The minimum frequency of sex was actually written into the "Ketubah" or marriage contract.
Dave W: I AM TALKING ABOUT A MAN WHO DELIBERATELY GETS STERILIZED !!!! I agree with your statements (above). The entire context of my posts is to discuss the Biblical sexual consequences of getting a vasectomy!!
: Red Baker Mon Aug 04, 2014 - 14:00:15
: SuperEddy Mon Aug 04, 2014 - 11:09:53
The best way that I understand it is that it is an interruption of the flow of life and, therefore, the "flow" of sex is also interrupted. Christian marriage only ends by the death of a spouse (legally). It can also end in divorce, but no re-marriage is possible (legally). If, either, the wife dies or the husband gets a divorce, and, the husband re-marries, he can have sex with his new wife as long as he has fathered at least one child. If he has no children, he cannot have sex even with his new wife.
Who put that into your mind? Why do men marry? Hint~1 Corinthians 7:2,9.
The scriptures know nothing of a sexless marriage.
Amen.
Red: The whole purpose of my posts is to address the Biblical sexual consequences of men getting vasectomies!!! Your posts are well reasoned == I agree with you. Now, please modify your statements to address men having vasectomies. (Which is, after all, the whole subject heading.)
SE
: Catholica Mon Aug 04, 2014 - 14:44:11
The primary (but not sole) purpose of marriage is for the pro-creation of children.
With that in mind, I would argue that v.12 about men who were "made eunuchs by others" in context means not that men who have had a vasectomy cannot have sex with their wives, but rather that they cannot marry someone, that is, until they had their vasectomy reversed. At that point, even if the reversal fails, they could marry someone. And if someone is married then it behooves them to repent from the sin of vasectomy (which is like castration) and make reparation by having the vasectomy reversed.
Catholica: Of any of the people to respond so far, you come the closest to my view. My point IS THAT a man who has a vasectomy (getting one while he is married) cannot have sex (he is forbidden by the Lord to have sex) with his wife. Sex, in such a case, can be resumed if he reverses the vasectomy.
SE
Dave W: Please address my post #9 == my response to you. We are on the first step towards an agreement == Let me know if this is so.
SE
: SuperEddy Mon Aug 04, 2014 - 19:02:14
Dave W: Please address my post #9 == my response to you. We are on the first step towards an agreement == Let me know if this is so.
ok - I did not see much to comment on there; but as you request:
: SuperEddy Mon Aug 04, 2014 - 11:28:04
: DaveW: Red Baker
Paul said: "For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper GIFT OF GOD, one after this manner, and another after that." I Corinthians 7:7
Quick note on the underlying greek: the word "gift" in this verse is charisma, the same word 5 chapters later is used to describe healing, prophecy, miracles, etc.
IOW, you can no more choose to be celebate than you can choose to have the gift of miraculous healing.
YES!!! This is exactly my point! Being made a "Gift Eunuch" by others (other men) is impossible! Only God can make a "Gift Eunuch" THAT IS WHY THE "Gift Eunuch" CONCEPT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE!
I have never heard of the term "Gift Eunuch," so I guess I am not sure what exactly is meant by it.
Anyone can chop someone's male parts off and it was not uncommon in the ancient mid-east. So I take the Lord's words in Matthew 19:12 quite literally.
However, Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 7:7 are more to the point - being celebate WITHOUT the removal of those male parts. The kicker is the apostle's words: "I would that all men were even as I myself." And he was intact in his manhood. How do I know? Because in Acts 21 he was in the temple and it was absolutely FORBIDDEN for anyone who was NOT intact to enter the temple. (yes - they were inspected)
Deuteronomy 23:1 (NET) A man with crushed or severed genitals may not enter the assembly of the Lord.
So there is a difference.
: SuperEddy Mon Aug 04, 2014 - 18:24:15
Dave W: I AM TALKING ABOUT A MAN WHO DELIBERATELY GETS STERILIZED !!!! I agree with your statements (above). The entire context of my posts is to discuss the Biblical sexual consequences of getting a vasectomy!!
OK. I see no "consequences" if the man can still perform to satisfy his wife. (which is the locus of biblical sexual command) And as we know, there are many different ways to please a woman. While the western world has only discovered this in the last century or so, Solomon wrote about some of the alternate techniques in the Song of Songs circa 1000 bc. (masturbation, manual sex, oral sex are all mentioned) So that was well understood in Jewish culture.
So the question comes up does having a vasectomy violate a command in scripture? I see nothing in that to diminish his ability to satisfy his wife. If they already have children he has fulfilled the command to be fruitful and multiply. So I see no violation there.
The next question that comes is whether Deuteronomy 23:1 is applicable in a New Covenant environment. I would say no, especially for gentile believers. If a third temple is set up at some point, and there is true worship of God there, a Jew who has a vas potentially may not be let in. But it should not exclude any of us from worship elsewhere.
Dave W: Again your remarks in post #18 are out of context. Look again at port #9:
By "Gift Eunuch" I mean using the word "Eunuch" to refer to one who "Has the Gift to remain Unmarried" == i.e., Its traditional meaning.
I intend to use the word "Eunuch" in a semi-literal sense to mean, in general, "one who is sterilized".
Now, please look at post #9: "You can no more choose to be celebate than...."
And my comment to that.
Please comment
: Catholica Mon Aug 04, 2014 - 14:44:11
The primary (but not sole) purpose of marriage is for the pro-creation of children.
Really? How about those people who marry late in life, after their spouse are dead? When I got married almost fifty years ago, it was all due to blinded lust, of course I thought I was in love, but more lust driven than love.
: SuperEddy Mon Aug 04, 2014 - 18:33:24Red: The whole purpose of my posts is to address the Biblical sexual consequences of men getting vasectomies!!! Your posts are well reasoned == I agree with you. Now, please modify your statements to address men having vasectomies. (Which is, after all, the whole subject heading.)
SE
I will ponder this some more~RB
: SuperEddy Tue Aug 05, 2014 - 05:51:21
Dave W: Again your remarks in post #18 are out of context. Look again at port #9:
By "Gift Eunuch" I mean using the word "Eunuch" to refer to one who "Has the Gift to remain Unmarried" == i.e., Its traditional meaning.
I intend to use the word "Eunuch" in a semi-literal sense to mean, in general, "one who is sterilized".
Now, please look at post #9: "You can no more choose to be celebate than...."
And my comment to that.
Please comment
I am not sure what you are saying is out of context. Perhaps you are not reading me correctly.
If I misunderstood your use of "Gift Eunuch" I apologize.
I make a distinction between those who have the charismatic gift (which cannot be chosen) while remaining intact; and those who are physically emasculated. Paul and Jesus were talking about 2 different situations.
: DaveW Tue Aug 05, 2014 - 05:43:12
: SuperEddy Mon Aug 04, 2014 - 18:24:15
Dave W: I AM TALKING ABOUT A MAN WHO DELIBERATELY GETS STERILIZED !!!! I agree with your statements (above). The entire context of my posts is to discuss the Biblical sexual consequences of getting a vasectomy!!
OK. I see no "consequences" if the man can still perform to satisfy his wife. (which is the locus of biblical sexual command) And as we know, there are many different ways to please a woman. While the western world has only discovered this in the last century or so, Solomon wrote about some of the alternate techniques in the Song of Songs circa 1000 bc. (masturbation, manual sex, oral sex are all mentioned) So that was well understood in Jewish culture.
So the question comes up does having a vasectomy violate a command in scripture? I see nothing in that to diminish his ability to satisfy his wife. If they already have children he has fulfilled the command to be fruitful and multiply. So I see no violation there.
The next question that comes is whether Deuteronomy 23:1 is applicable in a New Covenant environment. I would say no, especially for gentile believers. If a third temple is set up at some point, and there is true worship of God there, a Jew who has a vas potentially may not be let in. But it should not exclude any of us from worship elsewhere.
Masturbation, Oral sex,... may be OK == i.e., not under "consequences" == maybe only intercourse.
Paragraph two is THE very issue I am trying to resolve!! (Let's figure it out.)
Again, Deut 23:1 is not the issue: I'm talking about sterilization and vasectomy not emasculation and castration.
Dave W: Let me ask you some questions which may make our communications better == Let's see where we agree and where we differ.
In MATT 19:12, how do you define "eunuch"? Its literal way or something different?
Do you view MATT 19:9-12 as a minimum set of verses that define a context for them?
What are the verses that go with MATT 19:9-12 which support them?
SE
In MATT 19:12, how do you define "eunuch"? Its literal way or something different?
Literally. Those who are chopped off.
Do you view MATT 19:9-12 as a minimum set of verses that define a context for them?
I take the context starting with verse 3. It has to go to the larger question of marriage and divorce.
What are the verses that go with MATT 19:9-12 which support them?
I pretty much take it as a stand-alone passage. While Paul seems to be talking about the same thing in 1 Cor 7, I take it as a seperate issue.
: DaveW Tue Aug 05, 2014 - 06:34:52
In MATT 19:12, how do you define "eunuch"? Its literal way or something different?
Literally. Those who are chopped off.
Do you view MATT 19:9-12 as a minimum set of verses that define a context for them?
I take the context starting with verse 3. It has to go to the larger question of marriage and divorce.
What are the verses that go with MATT 19:9-12 which support them?
I pretty much take it as a stand-alone passage. While Paul seems to be talking about the same thing in 1 Cor 7, I take it as a seperate issue.
Dave W: GOOD!! For the purposes of this discussion I agree with you!! I would also ask you if you would, in addition, accept a semi-literal definition of "eunuch" as, in modern terms, "sterilization" and "vasectomized"? Also, note that I am not 100% in agreement with Catholica but has the "flavor" of what I'm trying to say.
SE
accept a semi-literal definition of "eunuch" as, in modern terms, "sterilization" and "vasectomized"?
No I will not. Eunichs had the testicles removed thus rendering them without a sex drive. (no testosterone) And (if done pre-puberty) often unable to attain an erection. That is why they were ideal for guarding the harem.
A vasectomy does not do that.
: DaveW Tue Aug 05, 2014 - 11:22:34
accept a semi-literal definition of "eunuch" as, in modern terms, "sterilization" and "vasectomized"?
No I will not. Eunichs had the testicles removed thus rendering them without a sex drive. (no testosterone) And (if done pre-puberty) often unable to attain an erection. That is why they were ideal for guarding the harem.
A vasectomy does not do that.
Dave W: I understand your position. I would add the thought, "What does vasectomy and castration have in common?" Answer: They block the flow of sperm == They block procreation. For the purposes of the discussion will you limit the use of the term "eunuch" to this commonality == consistent with the meaning of MATT 19:3-12?
SE
Yes both C and V block procreation. I will grant you that.
Now answer me this: Do you think marital sex has any value beyond procreation? If so - what?
: DaveW Tue Aug 05, 2014 - 11:41:30
Yes both C and V block procreation. I will grant you that.
Now answer me this: Do you think marital sex has any value beyond procreation? If so - what?
Dave W: To answer your question: YES!! It has many values. For example, fun, bonding, pleasure, love,... Yes, Many values!
SE
: SuperEddy Tue Aug 05, 2014 - 11:51:53
Dave W: To answer your question: YES!! It has many values. For example, fun, bonding, pleasure, love,... Yes, Many values!
OK - so far we are on the same page.
Now if a guy gets a vas, does that change? If so - how and why?
: DaveW Tue Aug 05, 2014 - 11:57:47
: SuperEddy Tue Aug 05, 2014 - 11:51:53
Dave W: To answer your question: YES!! It has many values. For example, fun, bonding, pleasure, love,... Yes, Many values!
OK - so far we are on the same page.
Now if a guy gets a vas, does that change? If so - how and why?
Dave W: If you asked me that a month ago, I would say, "No, not one iota!", and I assume that you would say the same! (Am I right?) I could not say the same, today, as it is not consistent with what the Lord has shown me about my own vas, which was 28 years ago, however, the Lord told me last week that vasectomy is very destructive to one's sex life, in marriage or not in marriage. This is why I'm writing in this forum == This is why I am here!
SE
Does a vas negate the command to sexually satisfy your wife?
: DaveW Tue Aug 05, 2014 - 12:12:26
Does a vas negate the command to sexually satisfy your wife?
Dave W: The Lord is the Author of the command to sexually satisfy your wife. You can do mutual masturbation or oral but the Lord forbids you to do intercourse if you get a vas. The Lord is the Author of the command == He has the power and authority to negate it, if He desires!
SE
: SuperEddy Tue Aug 05, 2014 - 12:19:51
You can do mutual masturbation or oral
OK .....
but the Lord forbids you to do intercourse if you get a vas.
Chapter and verse please. If it is a blanket "applies to everyone" kind of prohibition it HAS to be backed up by scripture.
If it is a
personal prohibition, (yes HE does that sometimes) then keep it to yourself.
ETA:
If it is a personal thing - it also needs your wife's
full agreement.
1 Cor 7.4b the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.
: DaveW Tue Aug 05, 2014 - 12:26:26
: SuperEddy Tue Aug 05, 2014 - 12:19:51
You can do mutual masturbation or oral
OK .....
but the Lord forbids you to do intercourse if you get a vas.
Chapter and verse please. If it is a blanket "applies to everyone" kind of prohibition it HAS to be backed up by scripture.
If it is a personal prohibition, (yes HE does that sometimes) then keep it to yourself.
Dave W: THIS IS THE VERY THING I'VE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG === MATT 19:10-12. More than that: It is my personal communication with the Lord. That is what I've been trying to say all along == from my first post! That's all I've got!
SE
So this is personal. Do you have your wife's agreement?
Do you think it applies to everyone?
: DaveW Tue Aug 05, 2014 - 12:34:33
So this is personal. Do you have your wife's agreement?
Do you think it applies to everyone?
Dave W: IT APPLIES TO EVERYONE! IF YOU GET AS VAS, YOUR SEX LIFE IS AS GOOD AS TRASH!!
SE
: SuperEddy Tue Aug 05, 2014 - 12:38:31
Dave W: IT APPLIES TO EVERYONE!
Says who? You MUST have biblical support for such a statement.
How exactly did you come to the conclusion that it was for everyone and not just for you personally?
: DaveW Tue Aug 05, 2014 - 12:41:31
: SuperEddy Tue Aug 05, 2014 - 12:38:31
Dave W: IT APPLIES TO EVERYONE!
Says who? You MUST have biblical support for such a statement.
Dave W: MATT 19:10-12 THAT'S WHAT I'VE GOT!! That is what I've been trying to say all along! That is what I've been trying to say from my first forum post! Read my first (starting) post again. It requires some interpretation and critical thinking. My message is real! My warning is real! I need for you to have an open mind! If you want an "open-and-shut" explanation, I can't give it to you, but I CAN point the way!
SE
Matt 19 does NOT say that. Not by a long shot. It is NOT talking about people already or still married.
You have come up with a "private intrepretation" that is prohibited according to this:
2 Peter 1:20 (NKJV) knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
So NO, that does not hold up to scriptural scrutiny. (btw - scriptural prophecy usually is NOT foretelling the future but is for application to a current situation)
I will ask again: Does your wife agree with this?
: DaveW Tue Aug 05, 2014 - 13:05:43
Matt 19 does NOT say that. Not by a long shot. It is NOT talking about people already or still married.
You have come up with a "private intrepretation" that is prohibited according to this:
2 Peter 1:20 (NKJV) knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
So NO, that does not hold up to scriptural scrutiny. (btw - scriptural prophecy usually is NOT foretelling the future but is for application to a current situation)
I will ask again: Does your wife agree with this?
Dave W: I got divorced ten years ago == I am forbidden to re-marry on account of my divorce.
SE
Well if you are divorced you certainly should not be having sex with anyone.
Was your divorce for biblically acceptable reasons? Has your ex wife remarried?
================== ATTENTION ===========================
Are there any Bible-believing scientists, engineers, and mathematicians who would like to discuss the vasectomy issue? As such, you must have an open mind, be able to do formal and informal logic, and reject common logical fallacies. I am an electrical engineer and computer scientist. I am a Christian Fundamentalist but my mind is open to new ideas in the Scriptures. Please read my posts and feel free to respond. Thank you!
SuperEddy
: DaveW Tue Aug 05, 2014 - 13:16:25
Well if you are divorced you certainly should not be having sex with anyone.
Was your divorce for biblically acceptable reasons? Has your ex wife remarried?
No, not Biblical. Yes, she has. I forgive her.
SE
: SuperEddy Tue Aug 05, 2014 - 13:18:02
================== ATTENTION ===========================
Are there any Bible-believing scientists, engineers, and mathematicians who would like to discuss the vasectomy issue? As such, you must have an open mind, be able to do formal and informal logic, and reject common logical fallacies. I am an electrical engineer and computer scientist. I am a Christian Fundamentalist but my mind is open to new ideas in the Scriptures. Please read my posts and feel free to respond. Thank you!
SuperEddy
PS == See my first post.
SE
: SuperEddy Tue Aug 05, 2014 - 13:22:22
: DaveW Tue Aug 05, 2014 - 13:16:25
Was your divorce for biblically acceptable reasons? Has your ex wife remarried?
No, not Biblical. Yes, she has. I forgive her.
If she has remarried and the divorce was not for biblically acceptable reasons then she has committed adultery against you by re-marrying. That
makes it a biblically acceptable divorce and leaves you free to re-marry if you wish.
: DaveW Tue Aug 05, 2014 - 13:35:18
: SuperEddy Tue Aug 05, 2014 - 13:22:22
: DaveW Tue Aug 05, 2014 - 13:16:25
Was your divorce for biblically acceptable reasons? Has your ex wife remarried?
No, not Biblical. Yes, she has. I forgive her.
If she has remarried and the divorce was not for biblically acceptable reasons then she has committed adultery against you by re-marrying. That makes it a biblically acceptable divorce and leaves you free to re-marry if you wish.
Dave W: The Lord has told me otherwise == I am NOT free to re-marry!
SE
: SuperEddy Sun Aug 03, 2014 - 19:23:57
In modern-day terms: "Those men who deliberately make themselves sterile in order to avoid fathering any children or fathering more children are forbidden by the Lord from have sex in their marriage, and, if they have not fathered ANY children, are forbidden from having sex for the rest of their lives."
========= Welcome Scientific Christians Everywhere!!! ======================
I want to show that the above statement is or can be Biblicaly justified and supported by MATT 19:9-12 (it may be false). I want to examine this issue scientifically and with prayer and Bible study. There may be other Bible verses to consider.
Let's begin with a series of examples and observations of phenomena from induction and probability:
1) Eunuchs who are born that way have no secondary sexual development and are unable to have sex.
2) From "1": They can get secondary sexual characteristics with hormone treatments and then are able to have sex. I know of no sexual restrictions on them.
3) There are those who "act like eunuchs for the kingdom's sake" == They don't have sex.
4) Personal Example: A woman friend became sterile ACCIDENTALLY. There were no sexual restrictions on her == I think this is true of both men and women accidentally sterilized.
5) Personal example: A man had several children then got a vasectomy. His wife refused to have sex with him forever.
6) Personal Example: From "5": He divorced and re-married. He had no problems getting sex.
7) Personal Example: A man had never fathered kids and got a vasectomy. There was always some "excuse" why he could never get any sex.
In all of these examples "sex" means "intercourse"
If anyone has more examples and observations, please add them or refute them or give counter-examples.
SE
========== Attention: ===================================
Are there any readers who have had a vasectomy or know of someone who has?
Would you be willing to share your experiences or theirs?
I'd like to hear from you!
Thank you!
SE
: DaveW Tue Aug 05, 2014 - 13:35:18
: SuperEddy Tue Aug 05, 2014 - 13:22:22
: DaveW Tue Aug 05, 2014 - 13:16:25
Was your divorce for biblically acceptable reasons? Has your ex wife remarried?
No, not Biblical. Yes, she has. I forgive her.
If she has remarried and the divorce was not for biblically acceptable reasons then she has committed adultery against you by re-marrying. That makes it a biblically acceptable divorce and leaves you free to re-marry if you wish.
Dave W: Please see LUKE 16:18. How do you read it?
SE
: SuperEddy Wed Aug 06, 2014 - 05:19:11
Dave W: Please see LUKE 16:18. How do you read it?
You don't like that post of mine do you?
How do I read it? As follows (the english does not do the Greek justice)
Everyone who divorces his wife in order to marry another commits adultery...
One thing you need to understand about the teachings of Our Lord and the commands of the OT: Jesus was a Jewish male. He was (according to Galatians) born "under the law." So for Him to teach ANYTHING in opposition to the Law was sinful and Hebrews teaches He never sinned. Which means He never taught against the Law. And the Law allowed divorce and remarriage in certain situations.
If you read Matthew's version of that verse another phrase is added:
Matthew 5:32 but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife,
except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
The fact that Luke did not record that phrase (or perhaps it was lost from the text due to scribal error) does not negate the fact that it was there and perfectly lines up with the Law:
Deuteronomy 24:1 When a man takes a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because
he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out from his house,
You cannot cherry pick your verses to develop a doctrine. You must look at ALL applicable passages and make sure your doctrine fits EVERY ONE of them.
Now you claim God told you to not remarry. Fine. You do not have to. But realize that "word" applies ONLY TO YOU and not anyone else.
But seriously, I question whether it really was God speaking to you.
: SuperEddy Tue Aug 05, 2014 - 13:18:02
================== ATTENTION ===========================
Are there any Bible-believing scientists, engineers, and mathematicians who would like to discuss the vasectomy issue? As such, you must have an open mind, be able to do formal and informal logic, and reject common logical fallacies. I am an electrical engineer and computer scientist. I am a Christian Fundamentalist but my mind is open to new ideas in the Scriptures. Please read my posts and feel free to respond. Thank you!
SuperEddy
OK - I have an engineering degree (Mich State 1977) and worked for 20 years as a design engineer in the Tool and Die industlry.
: SuperEddy Tue Aug 05, 2014 - 13:18:02
================== ATTENTION ===========================
Are there any Bible-believing scientists, engineers, and mathematicians who would like to discuss the vasectomy issue? As such, you must have an open mind, be able to do formal and informal logic, and reject common logical fallacies. I am an electrical engineer and computer scientist. I am a Christian Fundamentalist but my mind is open to new ideas in the Scriptures. Please read my posts and feel free to respond. Thank you!
SuperEddy
Just glad that Christ didn't look to our credentials in order to gain relationship with Him ::smile::
Sometimes the wisdom that has been given by God FAR exceeds that of any well educated man or woman, especially when approaching Biblical truths.
God qualifies the unqualified ::smile::
: DaveW Wed Aug 06, 2014 - 05:51:12
: SuperEddy Wed Aug 06, 2014 - 05:19:11
Dave W: Please see LUKE 16:18. How do you read it?
You don't like that post of mine do you?
How do I read it? As follows (the english does not do the Greek justice)
Everyone who divorces his wife in order to marry another commits adultery...
One thing you need to understand about the teachings of Our Lord and the commands of the OT: Jesus was a Jewish male. He was (according to Galatians) born "under the law." So for Him to teach ANYTHING in opposition to the Law was sinful and Hebrews teaches He never sinned. Which means He never taught against the Law. And the Law allowed divorce and remarriage in certain situations.
If you read Matthew's version of that verse another phrase is added:
Matthew 5:32 but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
The fact that Luke did not record that phrase (or perhaps it was lost from the text due to scribal error) does not negate the fact that it was there and perfectly lines up with the Law:
Deuteronomy 24:1 When a man takes a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out from his house,
You cannot cherry pick your verses to develop a doctrine. You must look at ALL applicable passages and make sure your doctrine fits EVERY ONE of them.
Now you claim God told you to not remarry. Fine. You do not have to. But realize that "word" applies ONLY TO YOU and not anyone else.
But seriously, I question whether it really was God speaking to you.
Dave W: MATT 5:32 is OK But also consider MATT 19:7,8 == Jesus did not contradict the law, here, He made it stricter!! Any man who divorces his wife, except for reason of fornication, and re-marries commits adultery. More: That "fornication" is repeated and on-going, not just once!
SE
: Alan Wed Aug 06, 2014 - 07:57:59
: SuperEddy Tue Aug 05, 2014 - 13:18:02
================== ATTENTION ===========================
Are there any Bible-believing scientists, engineers, and mathematicians who would like to discuss the vasectomy issue? As such, you must have an open mind, be able to do formal and informal logic, and reject common logical fallacies. I am an electrical engineer and computer scientist. I am a Christian Fundamentalist but my mind is open to new ideas in the Scriptures. Please read my posts and feel free to respond. Thank you!
SuperEddy
Just glad that Christ didn't look to our credentials in order to gain relationship with Him ::smile::
Sometimes the wisdom that has been given by God FAR exceeds that of any well educated man or woman, especially when approaching Biblical truths.
God qualifies the unqualified ::smile::
Alan: I agree with you and Jesus would too!! I'm upset that I'm not getting a fair discussion and analysis of my concerns about vasectomy. The Jewish religionists and pharisees rejected Jesus but many of the common Jews accepted Him. Even today, my friends from "Jews For Jesus" can hardly believe that it was the high-ranking Jews who had Jesus crucified!
I need to address Christians who have an open mind and are not so quick to jump down my throat. I need them to look at facts in the world AND Biblical facts. I need them to use their minds and their spirits.
Alan, are you willing to work with me? I've been shown something of devastating importance by the Lord. I can't do it alone. I need the Christian community and you.
Thank you,
SE
Look SE - I have your engineering credentials. And I think many of the people I interact with here and on other sites would consider me a fair judge of scripture; even if they do not agree with my positions.
I am not "jumping down your throat." I am trying to get you to see a larger picture than what you are looking at right now.
You claim
I've been shown something of devastating importance by the Lord.
I am asking what tests you have put this revelation thru to prove it actually is from the Lord?
What tests have you put this thru to say it is for the church at large and not just yourself?
: DaveW Wed Aug 06, 2014 - 12:03:55
Look SE - I have your engineering credentials. And I think many of the people I interact with here and on other sites would consider me a fair judge of scripture; even if they do not agree with my positions.
I am not "jumping down your throat." I am trying to get you to see a larger picture than what you are looking at right now.
You claim I've been shown something of devastating importance by the Lord.
I am asking what tests you have put this revelation thru to prove it actually is from the Lord?
What tests have you put this thru to say it is for the church at large and not just yourself?
Dave W: My whole purpose of getting on-line is to try and explore this question with the Christian community. Yes, I claim "devastating importance..." A few minutes ago, I got a message from a woman giving me a counter-example to the "marriage"-part of my thesis. Until I figure that part out I will withdraw that part.
To answer your questions:
1) "What Test to Show From Lord?": It is my personal message from the Lord. I don't know. That's why I'm on-line == To find that answer!
2) "Tests/Church/Not Just Self": None. I don't know. I'm still trying to find the answer!
"Vasectomy" is not an easy subject to discuss!!! (Least of all with the Church!!!)
Sincerely,
SuperEddy
: SuperEddy Wed Aug 06, 2014 - 12:29:42
To answer your questions:
1) "What Test to Show From Lord?": It is my personal message from the Lord. I don't know. That's why I'm on-line == To find that answer!
GOOD!! Let me help you. Here is a list of 9 "tests" for any revelation or prophetic word to see if it really from the Lord or not. These are taken from Derek Prince's booklet "How to Judge Prophecy."
Nine Scriptural Principles For Judging Prophecy
A. 1 Cor. 14:3—The end purpose of true New Testament prophecy is threefold:
edification, exhortation, comfort. Anything which does not achieve these
purposes, or fall within these limitations is not true prophecy.
1. Jer. 1:10—Sometimes "rooting out" and "pulling down" precede "planting";
"destroying" and "throwing down" precede "building."
2. 2 Cor. 10:8; 13:10—The end purpose of ministry to God's people is always
edification.
B. 2 Tim. 3:16; Is. 8:19–20—All true prophecy always agrees with the letter and the
spirit of Scripture. The Holy Spirit does not contradict Himself (compare 2 Cor.
1:17–20).
C. John 16:13–14; Rev. 19:10—All true prophecy always exalts and glorifies Jesus
Christ and gives Him complete preeminence (compare Col. 1:18).
D. Rom. 14:17; Gal. 5:22–23; Matt. 7:15–16—True prophecy produces fruit in
character and conduct that agrees with the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Righteousness
comes first.
1. False prophets (wolves in sheep's clothing) are likewise identified by their
fruits: e.g., pride, arrogance, boastfulness, exaggeration, dishonesty,
covetousness, financial irresponsibility, licentiousness, immorality, addictive
appetites, broken marriage vows, broken homes (compare Matt. 7:21–23;
2 Pet. 2:12–15).
2. Num. 23:10; Josh. 13:22—Balaam set forth as a warning of a prophet
corrupted by wrong motives (compare 2 Pet. 2:15–16).
E. Deut. 18:20–22—If prophecy contains predictions concerning the future, and
these are not fulfilled, the prophecy did not come from God.
Rom. 12:6—Sometimes a person prophesying begins in the Holy Spirit but
oversteps his "measure of faith."
F. Deut. 13:1–5—Even if prophecy contains correct predictions or supernatural
revelations, it is not from God if its effect is to promote disobedience against God
and the Scriptures.
Acts 16:16–18—By the "spirit of divination" this girl supernaturally declared the
truth concerning Paul and Silas, but she was a tool of Satan.
G. 2 Cor. 3:17—True prophecy, given by the Holy Spirit, produces liberty, not
bondage.
1. Contrast the following: Rom. 8:15—"Bondage"; 1 Cor. 14:33—"Confusion";
2 Tim. 1:7—"Fear"
2. True prophecy never promotes spiritual dictatorship.
H. 2 Cor. 3:6—True prophecy, given by the Holy Spirit, will always inject fresh life
into a meeting, and harmonize with the overall purposes of God.
I. 1 John 2:27—True prophecy, given by the Holy Spirit, is attested by the Holy
Spirit within each believer who hears it.
2) "Tests/Church/Not Just Self": None. I don't know. I'm still trying to find the answer!
Go thru the above list first. If it passes those tests this one should start to become clear. If it does not pass, then forget it.
"Vasectomy" is not an easy subject to discuss!!! (Least of all with the Church!!!)
Any subject of a sexual nature is difficult to discuss in church. When was the last sermon you heard on masturbation? On the lasting effects of childhood sexual abuse?
Hi SuperEddy, I must say, I have to agree with Dave here as I've yet to see God contradict His written word.
: DaveW Wed Aug 06, 2014 - 12:51:49
: SuperEddy Wed Aug 06, 2014 - 12:29:42
To answer your questions:
1) "What Test to Show From Lord?": It is my personal message from the Lord. I don't know. That's why I'm on-line == To find that answer!
GOOD!! Let me help you. Here is a list of 9 "tests" for any revelation or prophetic word to see if it really from the Lord or not. These are taken from Derek Prince's booklet "How to Judge Prophecy."
Nine Scriptural Principles For Judging Prophecy
A. 1 Cor. 14:3—The end purpose of true New Testament prophecy is threefold:
edification, exhortation, comfort. Anything which does not achieve these
purposes, or fall within these limitations is not true prophecy.
1. Jer. 1:10—Sometimes "rooting out" and "pulling down" precede "planting";
"destroying" and "throwing down" precede "building."
2. 2 Cor. 10:8; 13:10—The end purpose of ministry to God's people is always
edification.
B. 2 Tim. 3:16; Is. 8:19–20—All true prophecy always agrees with the letter and the
spirit of Scripture. The Holy Spirit does not contradict Himself (compare 2 Cor.
1:17–20).
C. John 16:13–14; Rev. 19:10—All true prophecy always exalts and glorifies Jesus
Christ and gives Him complete preeminence (compare Col. 1:18).
D. Rom. 14:17; Gal. 5:22–23; Matt. 7:15–16—True prophecy produces fruit in
character and conduct that agrees with the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Righteousness
comes first.
1. False prophets (wolves in sheep's clothing) are likewise identified by their
fruits: e.g., pride, arrogance, boastfulness, exaggeration, dishonesty,
covetousness, financial irresponsibility, licentiousness, immorality, addictive
appetites, broken marriage vows, broken homes (compare Matt. 7:21–23;
2 Pet. 2:12–15).
2. Num. 23:10; Josh. 13:22—Balaam set forth as a warning of a prophet
corrupted by wrong motives (compare 2 Pet. 2:15–16).
E. Deut. 18:20–22—If prophecy contains predictions concerning the future, and
these are not fulfilled, the prophecy did not come from God.
Rom. 12:6—Sometimes a person prophesying begins in the Holy Spirit but
oversteps his "measure of faith."
F. Deut. 13:1–5—Even if prophecy contains correct predictions or supernatural
revelations, it is not from God if its effect is to promote disobedience against God
and the Scriptures.
Acts 16:16–18—By the "spirit of divination" this girl supernaturally declared the
truth concerning Paul and Silas, but she was a tool of Satan.
G. 2 Cor. 3:17—True prophecy, given by the Holy Spirit, produces liberty, not
bondage.
1. Contrast the following: Rom. 8:15—"Bondage"; 1 Cor. 14:33—"Confusion";
2 Tim. 1:7—"Fear"
2. True prophecy never promotes spiritual dictatorship.
H. 2 Cor. 3:6—True prophecy, given by the Holy Spirit, will always inject fresh life
into a meeting, and harmonize with the overall purposes of God.
I. 1 John 2:27—True prophecy, given by the Holy Spirit, is attested by the Holy
Spirit within each believer who hears it.
2) "Tests/Church/Not Just Self": None. I don't know. I'm still trying to find the answer!
Go thru the above list first. If it passes those tests this one should start to become clear. If it does not pass, then forget it.
"Vasectomy" is not an easy subject to discuss!!! (Least of all with the Church!!!)
Any subject of a sexual nature is difficult to discuss in church. When was the last sermon you heard on masturbation? On the lasting effects of childhood sexual abuse?
DaveW: Thank you for this list! Let me go through each point:
A == Exhortation True
B == Yet Undetermined, Still trying to figure it out.
C == Yet Undetermined
D == Yes, Righteousness
E == Not Applicable == Not A Prediction
F == No, Not Supernatural
G == True == It's a warning
H == Yet Unknown
I == Yet Undetermined
My conclusion so far is that I need to re-think my thesis position. Ill come back to it sometime later but now I have to end this.
Dave, thank you for all you have done in answering my questions and for your help. I apologize for my dogmatic overbearing position and my stubbornness. In a few weeks, I would like to correspond with you privately to hammer out what I've got from the Lord (I only know intuitively that I got "something").
I don't know how it all fits together just yet.
Sincerely,
SuperEddy
DaveW: I owe you another apology == I just figured out that you are right about my ability to get re-married, so, in general, this is true. My personal command from the Lord, however, tells me not to re-marry, but your general statement is true. I'm sorry for my error.
Sincerely,
SuperEddy
No apology needed but I do accept it.
I am just happy to be able to help you start straightening out your confusion.