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Matthew 24:34

     .  "Verily, I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."


I would like to present a debate to all perterist on the phrase This generation, as it is defined for us from the scriptures.  The corner stone of their eschatology rest entirely upon their understanding of this generation.

I will debate under these assumptions:

.  God is.

.  God gave the scriptures.

.  Scriptures alone are absolute truth on all matters of doctrine.

.  Man's opinions are worthless in matter of revelation/truth.

I will start first.   

Red---I see you have no one who will debate the subject with you. You will have to be careful in debating this subject or be "locked out."

Jesus spoke of "this generation" many times. What is your understanding of "generation" as it appears in Luke 7:31? Would you correlate this with Matthew 23:33,36; 24:34 and Acts 2:40?

: Tyler  Fri Sep 19, 2014 - 07:43:40
Red---I see you have no one who will debate the subject with you. You will have to be careful in debating this subject or be "locked out."

Jesus spoke of "this generation" many times. What is your understanding of "generation" as it appears in Luke 7:31? Would you correlate this with Matthew 23:33,36; 24:34 and Acts 2:40?

Greetings Tyler,

When John the Baptist, and Jesus used the phrase "this generation" they used it in this sense: "A type of people, or a family of people"; they never used it as far as a period of time when people are born and live upon the earth together at the same time, or near the same time. That is the common use that most people used the word generation; but God's word is its own dictionary, and the scriptures will define it own use of words, not Webster's dictionary.

In Luke 7:31 which follows verse thirty, should not give us any problem, which reads:

Luke 7:30

  .  "But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him."

It was the wicked generations of vipers who rejected John the Baptist's preaching and Jesus' word, who were of their father, the old serpent.

I must attend a meeting, afterwards, I will return with more time and I will address Matthew 23, then 24, and Acts 2. 

Greetings Tyler,

When John the Baptist, and Jesus used the phrase "this generation" they used it in this sense: "A type of people, or a family of people"; they never used it as far as a period of time when people are born and live upon the earth together at the same time, or near the same time. That is the common use that most people used the word generation; but God's word is its own dictionary, and the scriptures will define it own use of words, not Webster's dictionary.

Agree with you here Red...:)

In Luke 7:31 which follows verse thirty, should not give us any problem, which reads:

Luke 7:30

  .  "But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him."

It was the wicked generations of vipers who rejected John the Baptist's preaching and Jesus' word, who were of their father, the old serpent.

Agree....:)

I must attend a meeting, afterwards, I will return with more time and I will address Matthew 23, then 24, and Acts 2.

OK---agree...Have you noted in Matthew 3:11 that John said that the Pharisees and Sadducees were the first to be baptized with the Holy Spirit and with fire." What is your understanding of this?
Go ahead with Matthew 24 and Acts 3 first.

: Tyler  Fri Sep 19, 2014 - 18:55:35
Have you noted in Matthew 3:11 that John said that the Pharisees and Sadducees were the first to be baptized with the Holy Spirit and with fire." What is your understanding of this?

Good morning brother,

Tyler, I believe you need to take a closer look at Matthew 3:7-12 concerning John's words to these "generation of vipers".  John would not baptized anyone that he thought was not worthy to be baptized~and since he knew their proud spirit and why they came to his baptisms, he refused to give in to these generation of vipers.

To keep this short, we need to consider John's words carefully starting at verse 10 down to verse 13, and we should be able to understand what John meant by being baptized with the Holy Ghost and fire.  This baptism you do not want to have any part of, trust me!

Brother you missed the mark when you said that the Pharisees and Sadducees where the first to be baptized with the Holy Ghost and fire.  The truth is that no one has yet been baptized in that manner as of yet. This baptism is a baptism of JUDGEMENT in the lake of fire according to Revelation 20:14. My good friend, listen carefully to John the Baptist:

Matthew 3:11-13

   . "And now also the axe is laid unto the roots of the trees:  therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the FIRE."

   . I indeed baptized you with water unto repentance: BUT he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptized YOU (generation of vipers) with the Holy Ghost and fire:  (WHEN will this take place?)

.  Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; (when will take take place?) BUT HE WILL BURN UP THE CHAFF WITH UNQUENCHABLE FIRE."  Matthew 13:37-42

Brother if we are hearing what John is saying, then this has not yet happen, but will in that day when the chaff is separated from the true wheat.

The Pentecostals believe this happened on Pentecost.  The Preterist believe this happened in 70 A.D. yet both are wrong.  The scriptures are their own interpreter my brother.

Matthew 3:11-13

   . "And now also the axe is laid unto the roots of the trees:  therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the FIRE."

   . I indeed baptized you with water unto repentance: BUT he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptized YOU (generation of vipers) with the Holy Ghost and fire:  (WHEN will this take place?)

.  Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; (when will take take place?) BUT HE WILL BURN UP THE CHAFF WITH UNQUENCHABLE FIRE."  Matthew 13:37-42

Brother if we are hearing what John is saying, then this has not yet happen, but will in that day the the chaff is separated from the true wheat.

The Pentecostals believe this happened on Pentecost.  The Preterist believe this happened in 70 A.D. yet both are wrong.  The scriptures are their own interpreter my brother."

You believe this baptism is yet to come? Yet John said "NOW the axe is laid at the root of the tree."
To me, this means "national Israel" is ready to fall.

Let's take a look at Jesus repeating John's words in Matthew 23:33-39. "Verily I say unto YOU
(note that He is speaking to the scribes and Pharisees, v.15).Jesus said ALL THESE THINGS SHALL COME UPON THIS GENERATION.
He says: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, YOU have killed the prophets, and stoned them that killed them which were sent to YOU, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gatherers her children under her wings, and YOU would not!
Behold YOUR house is left unto you desolate!

Brother, that is condemnation by God all mighty--- no matter how you chose to slice it.
God was through with this outfit and we see the "axe" wheeled in 68 AD by the Romans.
Look again at Jesus' parable in Matthew 21:43-45. "Therefore I say unto YOU. The kingdom of God shall be TAKEN from YOU, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Note verse 45 after reading v.44---"And when the chief priests and Pharisees had HEARD his parable they perceived that he SPOKE OF THEM."
He was--and many would live to see this parable fulfilled by the Roman boot "standing in the "holy place (Ma. 24:15).  Emphasis mine----:)

The "baptism of fire" can be seen through the eyes of Josephus ("Jewish Wars") one of the few Jewish historians who lived to write about this destruction of Temple centered, national Israel.

I ask you brother----Is the Temple still standing in Jerusalem? Levitical priesthood? Alter? Animal sacrifice? Did Jesus' words come true---you know they did.

This is why Peter would say to those "devout Jews" at Pentecost, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation" (Acts 2:40). By this, Peter through the words of the Spirit (Matthew 10:20) was saying (to these new Christians) "get out of Dodge" the "axe" is in His hand and the Romans are going to be kicking ass and destroying this Temple of stone and gold inlaid---

"Behold, YOUR house is left unto YOU desolate." I would remind you brother---Jesus had often referred to the Temple in Jerusalem as "God's house," but now it was "THERI HOUSE" and it ain't there no more.
"I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." His church still stands a beacon in a dark and shattered world-----while national Israel is no more......Prophecy fulfilled.

Tyler  my friend, thank you for responding back, now give me time later (most likely in the morning, the Lord willing) to answer back.  RB

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, YOU have killed the prophets, and stoned them that killed them which were sent to YOU, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gatherers her children under her wings, and YOU would not! Behold YOUR house is left unto you desolate!

The meaning of "your house" can have a far wider meaning than only "the temple".
It appears as is Jesus speaks to Jerusalem, or the inhabitants of Jerusalem, but it was not Jerusalem or her inhabitants that killed prophets only.
In that sense Jesus addresses all the Jews and not only those who are in or around Jerusalem.

The term "your house" could as well mean the whole city of Jerusalem, or even the whole country of Israel.
And all these events did happen.
Not only was the temple destroyed, so was the city Jerusalem and the nation of Israel.

Revelation promises that God will restore His people.
Jerusalem has been restored, and so is the nation of Israel.
What has yet to be rebuild if the temple, which Revelation too says will happen in the last of days.


With regard to the "you" in many prophesies, given by the OT prophets, this not always meant to be addressed to the actual group of people that heard the prophesy.
Take for example Isaiah 29:3 "​​​​​​​I will lay siege to you on all sides;I will besiege you with troops;I will raise siege works against you."
The "you" in this prophesy was a future generation. Prophets like Isaiah and Jeremiah are filled with prophesies for "you"...future generations.

So the people that heard the prophets addressing them with "you", were not actually the people that would experience the prophesy.
And it is well possible that the generation that heard Jesus saying "this generation" was not the actual generation the prophesy was spoken out against.

With regards to "this generation" being the actual generation over which the destruction of Jerusalem in pronounced, I do not see a problem with that.
I do however fail to see that somehow this means that all the prophesies of Revelation are therefor fulfilled within that generation.
The events described in Revelation simply do not measure up with the actual events that took place around AD 70.

The cornerstone of Preterism is not based on "this generation", they make it sound so as to achieve some form of legality in their claim.
The cornerstone of Preterism is the liberty do declare, at their will and desire, the book of Revelation literal and figurative wherever it fits their theory.
They use "this generation" as a free pass to do so.

To a Preterist, the events in the book Revelation MUST fit in "this generation", because they made a link between the two that does not exist. And hence whenever you bring up a literal event described in Revelation, the Preterist will declare it figurative so it no longer requires physical proof of occurrence.

: AVZ  Sat Sep 20, 2014 - 10:13:05

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, YOU have killed the prophets, and stoned them that killed them which were sent to YOU, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gatherers her children under her wings, and YOU would not! Behold YOUR house is left unto you desolate!

The meaning of "your house" can have a far wider meaning than only "the temple".
It appears as is Jesus speaks to Jerusalem, or the inhabitants of Jerusalem, but it was not Jerusalem or her inhabitants that killed prophets only.
In that sense Jesus addresses all the Jews and not only those who are in or around Jerusalem.

The term "your house" could as well mean the whole city of Jerusalem, or even the whole country of Israel.
And all these events did happen.
Not only was the temple destroyed, so was the city Jerusalem and the nation of Israel.

Revelation promises that God will restore His people.
Jerusalem has been restored, and so is the nation of Israel.
What has yet to be rebuild if the temple, which Revelation too says will happen in the last of days.


With regard to the "you" in many prophesies, given by the OT prophets, this not always meant to be addressed to the actual group of people that heard the prophesy.
Take for example Isaiah 29:3 "​​​​​​​I will lay siege to you on all sides;I will besiege you with troops;I will raise siege works against you."
The "you" in this prophesy was a future generation. Prophets like Isaiah and Jeremiah are filled with prophesies for "you"...future generations.

So the people that heard the prophets addressing them with "you", were not actually the people that would experience the prophesy.
And it is well possible that the generation that heard Jesus saying "this generation" was not the actual generation the prophesy was spoken out against.

With regards to "this generation" being the actual generation over which the destruction of Jerusalem in pronounced, I do not see a problem with that.
I do however fail to see that somehow this means that all the prophesies of Revelation are therefor fulfilled within that generation.
The events described in Revelation simply do not measure up with the actual events that took place around AD 70.

The cornerstone of Preterism is not based on "this generation", they make it sound so as to achieve some form of legality in their claim.
The cornerstone of Preterism is the liberty do declare, at their will and desire, the book of Revelation literal and figurative wherever it fits their theory.
They use "this generation" as a free pass to do so.

To a Preterist, the events in the book Revelation MUST fit in "this generation", because they made a link between the two that does not exist. And hence whenever you bring up a literal event described in Revelation, the Preterist will declare it figurative so it no longer requires physical proof of occurrence.

I don't mean to take this off onto a rabbit trail, but Preterists are post-millennial, which means that they believe that the church is now to accomplish what Christ will accomplish during the millennial kingdom, as dispensationals/dual covenant believers claim.   Both sides are so bent on showing the other to be wrong, but both are wrong.   Christ will return, have a final defeat over Satan and enemies of the Gospel, and will set up a permanent physical kingdom, not a temporary kingdom whether it be one thousand years in length or ten thousand years in length.

John 5:45  Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope.
John 5:46  For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me.

Christ told the Jews that they had condemned themselves.  They rejected what Moses had said about Him as they denied the fulfillment of the Scriptures, just as they do now, including the Messianics. 

AVZ: "Revelation promises that God will restore His people.
Jerusalem has been restored, and so is the nation of Israel.
What has yet to be rebuild if the temple, which Revelation too says will happen in the last of days.

Thanks for joining Dave.

No AVZ-- the now debunked  "national of Israel" is not the "state of Israel" formed by the old League of Nations in 1948. Which, I might add, has been the cause of my countries problem in the Middle East. Due to the partition of Palestine by Britain, France and the USA we have paid a price in blood, and unknown billions of American tax dollars.
This of course was due to the British Foreign Secretary, Arthur James Belfour. Known as the Balfour Declaration of 1917. You may want to do a research by "Google."

Zionism is a far cry from Judaism.
So you want to "rebuild the Temple" that Jesus said would be "desolate"? This means the Levitical priesthood with limited tenure of office; alter, sacrifices, the "middle wall of partition" that separates Jew and Gentile must be re-instated.

You do not believe that the shed blood of Jesus on the cross of Calvary cleansed man of his sins?
You want to restore the Mosaic system that Jesus abrogated on His cross and have another shot at obeying this Law? You do understand by doing so the gentiles would be excluded from covenant relationship with God; and Red Baker and I would be yet in our sins?

I am not a Preterminist, but I can understand that I cannot follow the Mosaic law. And without a Temple neither can a wannabe Jew. The promise of Israel's restoration was dependent upon their keeping the Law of Moses, which as Paul reports-- "ABROHATED." ( Colossians 2:14).
This being true---the "Jew" cannot be restored as a nation.
"Verily I say unto YOU, This generation shall not pass away till ALL these things be fulfilled."
This would include the destruction of Jerusalem and the Jewish Temple or "House" as Jesus called it!

Tyler,

All though the Bible you read the term "the house of Israel", never is this meant to mean "the temple of Israel".
"House" can simply have meanings like, nation or tribe or lineage (House of David), or temple (House of God).
When Jesus said "Your house will be left desolate", it can have all these meanings.

I did not say that the restoration of the temple would have anything to do with Zionism or Judaism or even Christianity.
I simply stated the fact that Revelation tells us that the temple would be rebuild in the last of days.
That has yet to happen.

God will restore His people. The apostles prophesied this and so does Revelation.
What is meant with this is that God will call Israel into acceptance of Jesus Christ as their Savior.
The restoration of Israel as a nation is part of that promise. What we see today in Zionism is a step towards Israel coming to Christ.

All the troubles surrounding Zionism are predicted in Revelation.
Nations will rise against the nation of Israel, until the final battle will take place in...Israel.

: AVZ  Sun Sep 21, 2014 - 00:56:44

...Revelation tells us that the temple would be rebuild in the last of days.


God will restore His people. The apostles prophesied this and so does Revelation.

What verses are you referring to?

Luke 21:24, Romans 11:26, Hebrews 10:16, Revelation 14:1, Revelation 7:4-8, Revelation 11:13 , Revelation 9:4...and of course a hole bunch of prophets in the OT.

: Tyler  Sat Sep 20, 2014 - 08:59:09You believe this baptism is yet to come? Yet John said "NOW the axe is laid at the root of the tree." To me, this means "national Israel" is ready to fall.

You are not alone in believing that it has reference to only national Israel.  There are righteous people on both sides of this issue, I will freely admit.

Brother, I do firmly believe that John 's words are meant for us to applied them the day that God has appointed for judgement for all, both men and evil spirit/angels.  I see no reason to penknife this warning from John and apply it to only a small section of mankind, in light of Matthew 13:12, which is a perfect fit with Matthew 13:37-42, Jesus' same teaching as John in Matthew 3~no one can deny this, it is too plain to refute, and only a person trying to protect his own doctrine would make a attempt to do so.  I ask all honest men and women to read both accounts and ask themselves: "Are both John and Jesus speaking of the same event?"  To me, it is too clear, to say they are not one and the same, but are indeed one and the same.

Let's take a look at Jesus repeating John's words in Matthew 23:33-39. "Verily I say unto YOU (note that He is speaking to the scribes and Pharisees, v.15).Jesus said ALL THESE THINGS SHALL COME UPON THIS GENERATION. He says: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, YOU have killed the prophets, and stoned them that killed them which were sent to YOU, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gatherers her children under her wings, and YOU would not! Behold YOUR house is left unto you desolate!

I am not so sure that I will not need to break this post into two, so I will not weary my readers by being too long.

Jesus said ALL THESE THINGS SHALL COME UPON THIS GENERATION.

Thank you for this scripture~it means that we can stay on course that this thread is dealing with. 

In Matthew 23 our Lord Jesus is speaking to the multitude and his disciples~verse one.....Most all of his warnings and condemnations are directed to the scribes and Pharisees, whom he called fools, blind, hypocrites several times over, and to sum their character up, he said that they were serpents, and that only that, but from a generation of vipers.

They just did not come on the scene when Jesus was born, but had been here since the beginning of time.  Listen carefully to Matthew 23:35

"That upon you (the generation of vipers) may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom YE SLEW between the temple and alter."

WHO has slew all the righteous men upon the earth since the beginning? The generation of vipers starting with Cain, who was of that wicked one and slew his righteous brother, because his deeds were evil and his brother's righteous. 

Matthew 23:36

  .  "Verily I say unto you, all these things shall come upon this generation." 

What generation?  The generation of vipers, starting with Cain, and with all who do the evil works mentioned in Matthew 23:2-36.  To interpret "this generation" to mean the present people  during the time these words were spoken, does not fit with the context in which they were spoken, neither would Jesus words be true of all men of that present generation of people living.  As a matter of truth, that generation of people had the most godly group of people living during that time than in any other time men have been upon the earth!  Consider some of the great people of faith living during that time.  Jesus, the apostles, and many thousands more, just to mention some.

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, YOU have killed the prophets, and stoned them that killed them which were sent to YOU, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gatherers her children under her wings, and YOU would not! Behold YOUR house is left unto you desolate!

Tyler, the main reason why God destroyed Jerusalem, and its temple was because it had served it purposes, and he was now finished with both.  They served their intended eternal purposes of God.  There is a lot that could be said concerning this point, but to keep it short, I will only say this for now:  Read Romans 11:30-36  God chose Abraham and his natural seed to shallow forth his spiritual seed.  He used their name, people, worship, temple as a shallow of His hidden eternal purposes which he purposed to do according to his own will through his Son, and his true seed, both Jews and Gentiles.  It is true that not all of Israel are of Israel, but only the children of promise, and so, once he was finished with that nation, then he left them to themselves, just as he had done with the Gentiles of old.  Very soon, he will be finished with the Gentiles, and they like Israel of old will apostate, and be destroy, just as Israel were.  Then will Romans 11:30-36 be fulfilled and all will see that except God purposely shows grace, then no one would come and believe~between Israel of old and the Gentiles now following Israel's steps, God will prove and conclude that ALL Jews/Gentiles are in unbelief apart from his mercy, and would remain so apart from his mercy.

AVZ: "God will restore His people. The apostles prophesied this and so does Revelation.
What is meant with this is that God will call Israel into acceptance of Jesus Christ as their Savior.
The restoration of Israel as a nation is part of that promise. What we see today in Zionism is a step towards Israel coming to Christ."

Really? My New Testament reveals that God "calls" all men through the preaching of the Gospel--Zionism is a product of the Jewish mind, a full understanding of it requires consideration of the ancient history of the Jews. Martin Buber, Professor of Hebrew University in 1946 said before the Anglo American Committee: "Judaism did not simply create another national movement of the European type, but a unique one, a Zionism."

"Zionism" was coined in the 19th century as a result of persecution, and was intended to convey the desire of many alleged Jews to re-establish Palestine as the old state of Israel; and we have been paying the price for that blunder ever since!

What we see in the "state" of Israel now, is a political movement. They have no desire to return to the ethical and moral teachings practiced by the Jews under the Mosaic Law. If God is going to "restore" his people (alleged Jew) as you say--this means "grace" bows to race, "faith" to flesh.

Paul has written that "faith comes by hearing" (Romans 10:17) yet you predict a miraculous process in the mind of the alleged Jew as God "justifying" a people who do not believe!."
You are aware that if Christ had been acceptable to the Jew, they would not have brought about his death? The New Testament is clear that in His death He shed His blood, which alone cleanses from sin., breaking down the "middle wall." The average alleged Jew, Muslim, and woodpecker in Sandgap, Kentucky looks at the Christian as a product of Jerry Falwell, Jimmy Swaggart, Benny Hinn and Elmer Gantry wearing a silk suit and a Rolex watch.

Fact: Those in the state of Israel must except Jesus as the Son of God (Messiah) by FAITH.
Not a miraculous infusion of their mind, turning them around like robots. in a "Return." (Sounds like Calvinism 101....:)

I see no difference in the alleged Jew, the Muslim with his Qur'an in his hand or the tattooed  red neck in Pinegap, Kentucky. Neither believe that Jesus of Nazareth  is the "PROMISED SEED "of Genesis 22:16-20. Therefore, has no intention of repenting; and being baptized into Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. You can pray for these souls till your socks fall off--but until they have been "taught," we will find these non believers in the "goat" corral as prophesied in Matthew 25:41-46.

I told you Red-----this would turn into an "eschatological  donnybrook."

AVZ: "God will restore His people. The apostles prophesied this and so does Revelation.
What is meant with this is that God will call Israel into acceptance of Jesus Christ as their Savior.
The restoration of Israel as a nation is part of that promise. What we see today in Zionism is a step towards Israel coming to Christ."

Really? My New Testament reveals that God "calls" all men through the preaching of the Gospel--Zionism is a product of the Jewish mind, a full understanding of it requires consideration of the ancient history of the Jews. Martin Buber, Professor of Hebrew University in 1946 said before the Anglo American Committee: "Judaism did not simply create another national movement of the European type, but a unique one, a Zionism."

"Zionism" was coined in the 19th century as a result of persecution, and was intended to convey the desire of many alleged Jews to re-establish Palestine as the old state of Israel; and we have been paying the price for that blunder ever since!

What we see in the "state" of Israel now, is a political movement. They have no desire to return to the ethical and moral teachings practiced by the Jews under the Mosaic Law. If God is going to "restore" his people (alleged Jew) as you say--this means "grace" bows to race, "faith" to flesh.

Paul has written that "faith comes by hearing" (Romans 10:17) yet you predict a miraculous process in the mind of the alleged Jew as God "justifying" a people who do not believe!."
You are aware that if Christ had been acceptable to the Jew, they would not have brought about his death? The New Testament is clear that in His death He shed His blood, which alone cleanses from sin., breaking down the "middle wall." The average alleged Jew, Muslim, and woodpecker in Sandgap, Kentucky looks at the Christian as a product of Jerry Falwell, Jimmy Swaggart, Benny Hinn and Elmer Gantry wearing a silk suit and a Rolex watch.

Fact: Those in the state of Israel must except Jesus as the Son of God (Messiah) by FAITH.
Not a miraculous infusion of their mind, turning them around like robots. in a "Return." (Sounds like Calvinism 101....:)

I see no difference in the alleged Jew, the Muslim with his Qur'an in his hand or the tattooed  red neck in Pinegap, Kentucky. Neither believe that Jesus of Nazareth  is the "PROMISED SEED "of Genesis 22:16-20. Therefore, has no intention of repenting; and being baptized into Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. You can pray for these souls till your socks fall off--but until they have been "taught," we will find these non believers in the "goat" corral as prophesied in Matthew 25:41-46.

I told you Red-----this would turn into an "eschatological  donnybrook."

Gods promises to His people go beyond the spiritual only.
Not only did God say: "I am your God and you will be My people", He also promised them descendants and a land to live in.
The promise of God to restore Israel covers the complete promise God made to His people.

Below some excerpts from Isaiah, and there are many more, promising the restoration of the nation of Israel...call it Zionism if you wish:
Isa 11:12 - " And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth."
Isa 11:16 - "And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt. "
Isa 12:4 - "Cry out and shout, thou inhabitant of Zion: for great is the Holy One of Israel in the midst of thee."
Isa 14:1 - "For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob."
Isa 17:3 - "The fortress also shall cease from Ephraim, and the kingdom from Damascus, and the remnant of Syria: they shall be as the glory of the children of Israel, saith the LORD of hosts."
Isa 19:24 - " In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land: Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance. "

As I said, Zionism is a step towards Israel coming to Christ. It is part of the prophesy foretold many centuries ago that one day Israel, the country, shall again be restored.

Red: "Then will Romans 11:30-36 be fulfilled and all will see that except God purposely shows grace, then no one would come and believe~between Israel of old and the Gentiles now following Israel's steps, God will prove and conclude that ALL Jews/Gentiles are in unbelief apart from his mercy, and would remain so apart from his mercy. "

Paul has written that "there is neither Jew nor Gentile" (Galatians 3:28) I do not want to be classified as a Gentile do you? You couldn't find a thoroughbred "Jew" with a search warrant today by "genealogy" and you know it!
Interesting--if a man could not  be classified as a "Jew" in their "genealogy" (Ezra 2:62) he could not have anything to do in rebuilding the Temple after the return from their Captivity in Babylon. He would be classified as a Samaritan. A Samaritan would be classified as a "Gentile" (John 4)

Listen to these inspired words: "Therefore if a man (generic term-women included) is IN CHRIST he/she is a NEW CREATION: OLD thing are passed away; behold all things are become NEW" (11 Corinthians 5:17). What is so difficult about that passage? I mean--you do not even have to be a Greek scholar to understand Paul's words.

Why do you insist in holding on to "OLD things"? You don't like the name "Christian"?
Brother, if you are "IN CHRIST," you are seen in the eyes of God as a "new creation."
This is a PROMISE not a COVENANT. Think of it--"For he (God), has MADE him (Jesus), to be SIN
for us (you and me), that we might be made the righteousness of God IN HIM" (11 Cor. 5:21).

There are so many souls today trying their best to solve the "ending," that cannot explain how to become a Christian." This forum is full of men trying to inform me of how Jesus will return.
I just read on another Post how someone has found IsIs in the Bible.
Will it never end? these premillennial geniuses can find IsIs and Donald Duck in Revelation?

I ain't no "Gentile" Red---I am a "New Creation" who has not found the formula of the Lord's return, but believe in His PROMISE" that He will. Is that "Good News" or what?
I'm so happy I may go Walmart shopping today---talk at you later.

This site doesn't seem to get a lot of traffic. Old thread, but I'd like to give input.

The word generation in God's Word can, and does, have more than one usage. In the latter part of Luke 11 about the lawyers Jesus called "vipers", it applies to a specific family of people, from the time of Abel to the time of the blood of Zacharias.

But in Matt.24:34 with the generation in question, it applies to a generation involving time, like the time when a certain generation lives, like an era. An example would be my parent's generation is different than my generation I was born into.

In Matt.24 usage, Jesus is using it to pinpoint with signs the generation that will see His 2nd coming...

Matt 24:
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.


The parable uses a simple example of horticulture, that of how when you see the leaves of the fig tree start to spring forth, you know that summer is just around the corner. Our Lord Jesus' usage of "summer" is about the event of His returning, likened to summer harvest time (Matt.9:37-38; Matt.13:30; Rev.14:15).

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

He already set the subject in the previous parable, i.e., the event of His 2nd coming, and that subject is continuing here, so He definitely is speaking of a generation era of time, specifically the era of those alive that will see "all these things". What "all these things"? The things He covered from the start of the chapter down to this, signs of the very end, which the last sign He gave was the event of His 2nd coming per the Matt.24:29-31 verses.

What that means is, ALL... of these signs Jesus gave in His Olivet Discourse upon the Mount of Olivet with His disciples are for the very end of this world, for the last generation that will experience His 2nd coming. His 2nd coming has not happened yet today.

It means the destruction of the temple mount complex He mentioned is not about the destruction in 70 A.D., because even Rev.11:1-2 reveals there will be yet another temple built there for the very end of this world, in order for the "abomination of desolation" event from the Book of Daniel to take place. That event didn't occur in 70 A.D. by the Romans because the temple burned down before they could get control of it, so no abomination idol with false worship was ever done in 70 A.D. And we do have the blueprint of that abomination of desolation event with the example Antiochus in 170 B.C. who desolated inside the temple and setup an idol of Zeus inside the temple for false worship in Jerusalem.

Red,
I am new to this forum. But I would be glad to debate you. If God's words count. You say a generation means "A type of people, or a family of people" but not a time period. But that is your opinion. The first impression (completely understood to the disciples to whom He was speaking) was that their generation would not pass away until all those things took place. Now you may argue this is not authors intent. But all authors, even God, has intent. Intent cannot be determined by one sentence or two. It is determined by hundreds of sentences and the entire context. So what is God's intent? Let's look at other time statements in the New Testament (of which their are many) to see the Lord's intent for the timing of the end time and the Lord's return. How about another one,

Jesus to His disciples:
...until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished. (Mt.5:18)

So are you telling me we are still living under the law? This is a time statement , and if we are still waiting for all to be accomplished, we are still living under the law. If you don't think we are still living under the law, then all is accomplished.

They way I undertsand it Jesus is talking about a specific generation in Matthew 24.

Before I explain l want to the look at the greek in Matthew.

In Matthew 1 γενέσεως is translated generation & means geneology

In Matthew 11 find the word γενεὰν which should mean beginning.
"16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows, 17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented. 18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil. 19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

This beginning is fulfilled in the children of wisdom.

The same word is used in Matthew 23
"34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

This beginning is fulfilled in the children of wrath.

In Matthew 24 we find γενεὰ which means a specific generation.
"32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
What is the evidence of who this generation of people are?
"This generation shall not pass" What does that mean? It means they will not die.

"23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? 27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world." - John 11

Just as His words will never pass away neither will the children of God.

Even though it has been 2000 years & many generations of flesh have passed we are still just one generation. The children born of Spirit. The children of God. The brothers & sister of Christ.

"30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this." Psalm 22 -  The Psalm of the Cross

6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?

7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me." - Hebrews 2

: TonkaTim  Fri May 06, 2016 - 07:38:26
They way I undertsand it Jesus is talking about a specific generation in Matthew 24.

....

Even though it has been 2000 years & many generations of flesh have passed....

The Greek word for generation does not determine the Scripture context, simply because the idea of genealogy is always tied to the idea of the word, even in English or any other language.

It can be used two ways as I showed, either about a specific family of people over many generations of time, or it can refer to a specific generation era.

Even in your own words in the above sentence you use the idea of different eras of generations with "many generations".

What determines the Matt.24 context of how generation is used is how Jesus tied it to a specific time to see the things He was declaring in that chapter, i.e., the signs of the end of this world.

dpr, Many generations of flesh, but only one generation of spirit.

There are no aunts & uncles, grandparents, cousins etc in the generation of spirit. They are all one generation. The children of God through Christ. Why I took it to the Psalm of the Cross so we can see the fulfilling of that prophecy & its explanation in Hebrews 2.

I assumed the only ones who would disagree with the scriptures I presented are Preterist because the explanation is inconvenient to them & is another point that undoes their argument.

To me it is obvious "This generation shall not pass" means they have eternal life. In context & in context with the supporting scriptures.

: TonkaTim  Fri May 06, 2016 - 09:39:55
dpr, Many generations of flesh, but only one generation of spirit.

There are no aunts & uncles, grandparents, cousins etc in the generation of spirit. They are all one generation. The children of God through Christ. Why I took it to the Psalm of the Cross so we can see the fulfilling of that prophecy & its explanation in Hebrews 2.

I assumed the only ones who would disagree with the scriptures I presented are Preterist because the explanation is inconvenient to them & is another point that undoes their argument.

To me it is obvious "This generation shall not pass" means they have eternal life. In context & in context with the supporting scriptures.

Matthew 24,  34
Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all these things take place.


Just curious,  when all these things have taken place, will this generation pass away?

Never.

: TonkaTimThey way I undertsand it Jesus is talking about a specific generation in Matthew 24.

Before I explain l want to the look at the greek in Matthew.

In Matthew 1 γενέσεως is translated generation & means geneology

In Matthew 11 find the word γενεὰν which should mean beginning.
"16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows, 17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented. 18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil. 19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

This beginning is fulfilled in the children of wisdom.

The same word is used in Matthew 23
"34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

This beginning is fulfilled in the children of wrath.

In Matthew 24 we find γενεὰ which means a specific generation.
"32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
What is the evidence of who this generation of people are?
"This generation shall not pass" What does that mean? It means they will not die.

"23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? 27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world." - John 11

Just as His words will never pass away neither will the children of God.

Even though it has been 2000 years & many generations of flesh have passed we are still just one generation. The children born of Spirit. The children of God. The brothers & sister of Christ.

"30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this." Psalm 22 -  The Psalm of the Cross

6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?

7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me." - Hebrews 2

Look at verse 34 in context with 35 in Matthew 24.

Read the Psalm of the Cross. http://biblehub.com/kjv/psalms/22.htm Then meditate on the last two verses. I bet it'll click.

: TonkaTim  Fri May 06, 2016 - 09:39:55
dpr, Many generations of flesh, but only one generation of spirit.

There are no aunts & uncles, grandparents, cousins etc in the generation of spirit. They are all one generation. The children of God through Christ. Why I took it to the Psalm of the Cross so we can see the fulfilling of that prophecy & its explanation in Hebrews 2.

I assumed the only ones who would disagree with the scriptures I presented are Preterist because the explanation is inconvenient to them & is another point that undoes their argument.

To me it is obvious "This generation shall not pass" means they have eternal life. In context & in context with the supporting scriptures.

That sounds more like philosophy than an actual common sense reasoning approach to that passage from our Lord Jesus. I don't intend to offend with saying that, I'm just being honest.

When He said that generation shall not pass until all those things happen, He actually meant exactly that, so it's really simple to understand; we don't need a bunch of political analysts to analyze what He said and tell us. Just understand it how it's simply written, that's all.

: doorknocker  Fri May 06, 2016 - 17:39:57

Matthew 24,  34
Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all these things take place.


Just curious,  when all these things have taken place, will this generation pass away?
[/quote]

The generation that will experience those things, yes. That will be the final generation of this world, because the very last sign Jesus gave there was the sign of His second coming and end of this present world.

: dpr  Sun May 08, 2016 - 07:24:59When He said that generation shall not pass until all those things happen, He actually meant exactly that, so it's really simple to understand; we don't need a bunch of political analysts to analyze what He said and tell us. Just understand it how it's simply written, that's all.

I had written a post to you last week, and almost finished it, and then lost it by hitting the wrong button~and because short on time, did not write another one. I will later today~so watch out for it, and let us talk about this topic.

: RB  Sun May 08, 2016 - 07:40:39

: dpr  Sun May 08, 2016 - 07:24:59When He said that generation shall not pass until all those things happen, He actually meant exactly that, so it's really simple to understand; we don't need a bunch of political analysts to analyze what He said and tell us. Just understand it how it's simply written, that's all.

I had written a post to you last week, and almost finished it, and then lost it by hitting the wrong button~and because short on time, did not write another one. I will later today~so watch out for it, and let us talk about this topic.

Write what you want, but it won't change my understanding of it, because it's actually a very simple passage. One simply needs to keep it in the context of what He was talking about in that chapter instead of arguing over the system doctrines of men, which will lead nowhere.

: dprThat sounds more like philosophy than an actual common sense reasoning approach to that passage from our Lord Jesus. I don't intend to offend with saying that, I'm just being honest.

When He said that generation shall not pass until all those things happen, He actually meant exactly that, so it's really simple to understand; we don't need a bunch of political analysts to analyze what He said and tell us. Just understand it how it's simply written, that's all.

No worries brother. Just showing what I see & presenting the scriptures that show it to me.

Don't forget I have no expectation of another day after Jesus comes.

The way I see it, when the Sun & Moon go dark that represents the last night.


When Jesus comes. The Light comes. This is the last day. Eternity.

"22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there"



So when Jesus comes:
"17 Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.

18 And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.

19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.

20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously." Isaiah 24



Thus the last day begins like all days in darkness, but this day the last day never ends.


But knowing this is the last day, When Jesus comes it is also judgement day.


Like Isaiah said "the earth is clean dissolved".


Like Peter said "10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness." 2 Peter 3

Like Paul said in Hebrews
"25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: 26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. 27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: 29 For our God is a consuming fire."


Though the generation Jesus is discussing, His generation can never die but their wordly flesh does not remain. Paul explains about those that remain, they will be "transformed". As John said "we will be as He is". Those that remain have to put off "this body of death".

"49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.:"


So they do pass away in the flesh. From this world to the next. From the old heavens & earth into the new heavens & the new earth as they put on incorruption & shed "this body of death" into eternity, the Last Day.

It also means Christians will be here on this earth to the very end Just as Jesus says in this chapter.

Matthew 24:34~"Verily, I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

Men's whole eschatology  teaching/doctrine/understanding of the end time and its related events, stands or falls with this one scripture, whether or not they will admit it, it is so. I do believe that one's true biblical understanding of eschatology, or at least the beginning of it, will begin with Matthew 24:34~for if one can start out correctly, they should be able to put the pieces of the puzzle together overall concerning end time and its related events, when overall considered. I wrote another post yesterday only to lose it for the second straight time, so let us try again for the third time. Lynnish said:

Red, I am new to this forum. But I would be glad to debate you.

All comments are more than welcome. I will try to address all comments as time permits me to do so. I've been very short on time lately, and have limited myself to just a few in early morning.

You say a generation means "A type of people, or a family of people" but not a time period. But that is your opinion.

I have never said that the word generation is limited to one sense, but that it is used many times over, and would add, most of the time in the sense in which I have used the word generation. God's word is its own interpreter of the use of its words that the Spirit has chosen to use, in order to hide truth from those who think they are wise and from the generations of vipers among God's children.  Would you not agree with this statement?

But that is your opinion.

I do not have the right to have an opinion without biblical support of my opinion~which on this point I have more than you would care to address, I'm convinced. There are so many that it is not easy to know exactly where to start...but start I will. Would you say that Solomon was a very wise man? Do you think that he would use a word and know the sense in which he was using it? Let us see.

Proverbs 30:11-14~"There is a generation that curseth their father, and doth not bless their mother. There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness. There is a generation, O how lofty are their eyes! and their eyelids are lifted up. There is a generation, whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men."

Generation here means a kind of person, for it lacks demonstrative pronouns or other modifiers for a period of time. It is not a prophecy of the future, when children would be rebellious, for all ages have such sinners. The first generation, or kind of evil person, is cruel and rebellious to parents. The second generation, or kind of person, is self-righteous about purity. He, or she, has a haughty heart toward God's word, presuming that it seldom applies to him. Confident in his own wisdom and standard of holiness, he looks down on others as inferior and lords it over them in thoughts, speech, and conduct. He feels God is obligated to accept him and will most certainly do so. He sees little need for self-examination or personal repentance. The third generation, or kind of evil person, is arrogant and proud about his abilities, character, accomplishments, possessions, and/or value. Rather than casting his eyes to the ground in humility, he lifts them up even in the sight of God (Luke 18:9-14). He can easily be disrespectful or snotty, unless it is in his best interests to show a little deference. The fourth generation, or kind of evil person, is oppressive and cruel in word and deed, especially toward the helpless, poor, and weak. This intimidating and threatening brute has no pity or regard for those in need or trouble. He or she is selfish, merciless, and violent. They do not have ordinary compassion for those under them or near them, and they often rise to positions of power by corrupting or destroying anyone in their way. These type of the generation of the wicked are in every generation of men living on the earth during a period of time; at the same time, or thereabouts the same time; which is also a sense in which the word can be used, but seldom is used in the scriptures. John the Baptist, Jesus, and Peter, all used the word generation in reference to a kind, or type of people, almost, if not exclusively. 

Matthew 3:7~"But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?"

Again:

Matthew 23:33~"Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Again:

1st Peter 2:13~"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:"

There are many more~but, I can not only give you many more scriptures that supports the meaning of generation to mean a type of people; but can link the word "THIS" with generation, just as Jesus did in his Olivet discourse , which will give it a double support as meaning a type, or kind of people.

Psalm 12:1-8~"Help, LORD; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men. They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak. The LORD shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things: Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us? For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the LORD; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him. The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted."

Who was David speaking of when he use the words: "this generation"? Was he speaking of a particularly kind of people, or all men living on the earth during his day? It's very simple to see, is it not? Of course it is, unless we desire not to see it. Later....

: RB  Tue May 10, 2016 - 05:14:34

Matthew 24:34~"Verily, I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

Men's whole eschatology  teaching/doctrine/understanding of the end time and its related events, stands or falls with this one scripture, whether or not they will admit it, it is so. I do believe that one's true biblical understanding of eschatology, or at least the beginning of it, will begin with Matthew 24:34~for if one can start out correctly, they should be able to put the pieces of the puzzle together overall concerning end time and its related events, when overall considered. I wrote another post yesterday only to lose it for the second straight time, so let us try again for the third time. Lynnish said:

Red, I am new to this forum. But I would be glad to debate you.

All comments are more than welcome. I will try to address all comments as time permits me to do so. I've been very short on time lately, and have limited myself to just a few in early morning.

You say a generation means "A type of people, or a family of people" but not a time period. But that is your opinion.

I have never said that the word generation is limited to one sense, but that it is used many times over, and would add, most of the time in the sense in which I have used the word generation. God's word is its own interpreter of the use of its words that the Spirit has chosen to use, in order to hide truth from those who think they are wise and from the generations of vipers among God's children.  Would you not agree with this statement?

But that is your opinion.

I do not have the right to have an opinion without biblical support of my opinion~which on this point I have more than you would care to address, I'm convinced. There are so many that it is not easy to know exactly where to start...but start I will. Would you say that Solomon was a very wise man? Do you think that he would use a word and know the sense in which he was using it? Let us see.

Proverbs 30:11-14~"There is a generation that curseth their father, and doth not bless their mother. There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness. There is a generation, O how lofty are their eyes! and their eyelids are lifted up. There is a generation, whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men."

Proverbs 30,  11-14
There are those that curse their fathers and do not bless their mothers.
There are those who are pure in their own eyes but are not cleansed of their filth.
There are those - how lofty are their eyes, how high their eyelids lift!
There are those whose teeth are swords, whose teeth are knives,
to devour the poor from off the earth, the needy from among men.


By the way Red, Proverbs 30  were the words of Agur, son of Jakeh of Massa.

: RBMen's whole eschatology  teaching/doctrine/understanding of the end time and its related events, stands or falls with this one scripture

Much truth in that statement. The Apostle Paul said "For now we see through a glass, darkly", our eschatology adds another lens. Does it make it clearer or more fuzzy?

Why I settled on my perspective. To me it made things more clear.

Even lead me to this conclusion; There are 31,102 verses in the Bible. Out of those 31,102 verses only two could possibly make one think there is another day after the last day with no supporting witnesses. Why I settled on the perspective we are in the Kingdom now. Christ reigns now. And quit thinking there might be 365,000 more days after the last day.

"Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him."

Just because we don't yet see it, doesn't mean it is not so.

: doorknocker  Tue May 10, 2016 - 06:43:22By the way Red, Proverbs 30  were the words of Agur, son of Jakeh of Massa.

Agree~yet Solomon collected them and added them to his.

: dpr  Sun May 08, 2016 - 07:49:53

Write what you want, but it won't change my understanding of it, because it's actually a very simple passage. One simply needs to keep it in the context of what He was talking about in that chapter instead of arguing over the system doctrines of men, which will lead nowhere.

If you go back to the first few verses you will see the simple context is the "herodian" temple and it's impending destruction. After all, that's what the disciples were referring to when they asked him when and what signs would ensue. Yet many Christians believe and teach that the Lord completely changed the subject to a far and final judgment of all mankind. I would agree, "this generation" seems to be the generation which sees these things come to pass... but these things coming to pass had to do with the razing of the temple standing before them (if the context of the chapter is being considered).

: raggthyme13Christians believe and teach that the Lord completely changed the subject to a far and final judgment of all mankind.

The reason they feel that way is because Jesus is answering three questions.

Lets take a look;
"1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

1. First question = "when shall these things be?" (Temple destroyed)

2. Second question = "what shall be the sign of thy coming?"

3. Third question = "and of the end of the world?"

These three questions are why.

The Temple is gone but the world is still here.

: TonkaTim  Wed May 11, 2016 - 02:22:29

: raggthyme13Christians believe and teach that the Lord completely changed the subject to a far and final judgment of all mankind.

The reason they feel that way is because Jesus is answering three questions.

Lets take a look;
"1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

1. First question = "when shall these things be?" (Temple destroyed)

2. Second question = "what shall be the sign of thy coming?"

3. Third question = "and of the end of the world?"

These three questions are why.

The Temple is gone but the world is still here.

In Luke, he's answering two.. correct or incorrect?

: raggthyme13  Wed May 11, 2016 - 01:50:21but these things coming to pass had to do with the razing of the temple standing before them (if the context of the chapter is being considered).

I will agree with this so important  statement:

(if the context of the chapter is being considered

Because the context does indeed always drives the interpretation for us, yet so many believe this to be so, yet do not truly practice what they are saying, or, they have a preconceived notion of what the context is saying, based upon a few things:  first, what they have been taught in the past and received as truth, yet it was not; which is so difficult to remove from our thinking when trying to truly understand what we are considering; or, God just has not been please to open one's understanding for whatever reason, which we leave that with him to do as he seems fit and which best serves his purposes. Now, this being said, I know that it is an undisputed truth, that Matthew 24 is one complete discourse with Matthew 25, and must be interpreted with Matthew 25 being considered as the very same discourse with an uninterrupted message of the very same contents that makes up the context of Jesus' discourse. That being said, then we must consider Matthew 24,25, with Mark 13 and Luke 21; when this is done, it can be proven to any who has eyes to see and ears to hear, that Jesus is speaking of the latter days just before his second and only visible coming taught in the New Testament.  

: dpr  Mon May 02, 2016 - 08:38:39like to give input.

In all sincerity, it is welcome.

Write what you want, but it won't change my understanding of it,

Well now, that's not the spirit to have without ever giving us a fair hearing and then testing us with the scriptures of truth. You added:

because it's actually a very simple passage

Well, that could be said of many scriptures, such as John 3:16, yet I know that many, even those who have never honestly considered the scriptures overall think they know what John is saying, yet they do not! Truth is only simple to those who understand, and then they may very well struggle on another doctrine, which another brother, or sister has truth on, yet they do not!

Proverbs 8:9~"They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge."

Some say, "The Bible is too difficult!" Others say, "The Bible contradicts itself!" Many conclude, "Anything can be taught from the Bible. It is impossible to know the truth for sure." The devil laughs with evil satisfaction at such absurd remarks. But true wisdom teaches that the words of wisdom are plain and right~ to those with understanding and knowledge! I will agree that "IF" one have a problem with the Bible, then they have the problem, not the Bible! We all agree that a little understanding and knowledge, from fearing the Lord and trembling before His word, will open the Bible to us (Proverbs 1:7; 9:10; Psalm 25:14; Isaiah 66:2; Luke 8:18). The words become plain and right, when you study the Bible humbly by its rules of interpretation. If we approach it arrogantly or critically, it is designed to confuse and destroy us (Ezekiel 14:1-11; I Corinthians 1:19-20; 2:13-15; 2nd Thessalonians  2:9-12; 2nd Timothy  2:15; 2nd Peter 3:16). We all should give each a fair hearing and test each with the word of God, not with our preconceived notions of what the truth is, and is not.

The word generation in God's Word can, and does, have more than one usage. In the latter part of Luke 11 about the lawyers Jesus called "vipers", it applies to a specific family of people, from the time of Abel to the time of the blood of Zacharias.

Agreed

But in Matt.24:34 with the generation in question, it applies to a generation involving time, like the time when a certain generation lives, like an era.

I can see where you may think that, just as I once did many years ago, but the context will not support it. which we will address later when we come to it.

In Matt.24 usage, Jesus is using it to pinpoint with signs the generation that will see His 2nd coming...

While I do agree that Jesus gave us signs to pinpoint the time frame of the little season JUST BEFORE HIS COMING, a little season that very well could last a "few hundred years" by saying that this generation shall not pass until all be fulfilled, yet the very generation that Jesus is speaking about not passing are the very generation that is the very cause of the tribulation that he said would come to such a degree that no flesh would be saved (speaking only concerning practical knowledge of the truth, has not one thing to do with destroying the flesh of man, since the tribulation spoken of in the scriptures, are strictly of a spiritual nature, and NOT of an outwardly warfare between flesh and blood). Without controversy on my part~the contexts of the Oilvet discourse  (from Matthew 24,25) are concerning Christ second coming at the end of this world, with Jesus pinpointing certain related events that will occur by and evil and wicked generation of men arising out of the bottomless pit in in great numbers, whom Jesus referred to as THIS GENERATION, which was the very people he was describing for us from Matthew 24:5-30!   I'll come back and finish your post to me.

: RB  Wed May 11, 2016 - 03:28:18

: raggthyme13  Wed May 11, 2016 - 01:50:21but these things coming to pass had to do with the razing of the temple standing before them (if the context of the chapter is being considered).

I will agree with this so important  statement:

(if the context of the chapter is being considered

Because the context does indeed always drives the interpretation for us, yet so many believe this to be so, yet do not truly practice what they are saying, or, they have a preconceived notion of what the context is saying, based upon a few things:  first, what they have been taught in the past and received as truth, yet it was not; which is so difficult to remove from our thinking when trying to truly understand what we are considering; or, God just has not been please to open one's understanding for whatever reason, which we leave that with him to do as he seems fit and which best serves his purposes. Now, this being said, I know that it is an undisputed truth, that Matthew 24 is one complete discourse with Matthew 25, and must be interpreted with Matthew 25 being considered as the very same discourse with an uninterrupted message of the very same contents that makes up the context of Jesus' discourse. That being said, then we must consider Matthew 24,25, with Mark 13 and Luke 21; when this is done, it can be proven to any who has eyes to see and ears to hear, that Jesus is speaking of the latter days just before his second and only visible coming taught in the New Testament.

Hi Red,

Always a pleasure discussing with you. The point I am making is that the context of Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 are given to us in the first few verses...

The disciples are raving about the magnificence of the temple. Jesus replies that it's stones will be completely dismantled. They ask when these things will be and what sign there will be. He proceeds to answer them.

I firmly believe we should (first and foremost) take this context into consideration when reading the rest of each chapter.

raggthyme13 said; "The disciples are raving about the magnificence of the temple. Jesus replies that it's stones will be completely dismantled. They ask when these things will be and what sign there will be. I firmly believe we should (first and foremost) take this context into consideration when reading the rest of each chapter. "


That is why you took issue when I pointed out:

: TonkaTim

: raggthyme13Christians believe and teach that the Lord completely changed the subject to a far and final judgment of all mankind.

The reason they feel that way is because Jesus is answering three questions.

Lets take a look;
"1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

1. First question = "when shall these things be?" (Temple destroyed)

2. Second question = "what shall be the sign of thy coming?"

3. Third question = "and of the end of the world?"

These three questions are why.

The Temple is gone but the world is still here.

The reason you prefer the phrasing in Luke. You don't want to consider the time transition.

In Luke Jesus does make the time transition from early to late in verse 24:
"And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

Another one of the reasons the Ancients to many in the present age consider earthly Jerusalem Babylon the Great. I know you preterist do as well, but for some reason you guys do not want to talk about or consider the time transition Jesus tells us about. I wish yall would.

When the earthly city is no longer trodden down Jesus says in the next verses:
"25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."


Looks like it is getting closer & closer. Folks really need to be looking up. Looking at the evidence. Looking to the heavenly, looking to Jesus.


As a side note; when I see folks looking down at their iPhones all the time I see irony.
Looks like everyone is walking around praying.
But they are not.
Minds are filled with inane Facebook memes..
as they bump into light posts & each other...
completely clueless about their desperate need for Jesus Christ.

How does one tell someone about Jesus when they can not even look up to pay any attention?

: TonkaTim  Wed May 11, 2016 - 12:30:55
raggthyme13 said; "The disciples are raving about the magnificence of the temple. Jesus replies that it's stones will be completely dismantled. They ask when these things will be and what sign there will be. I firmly believe we should (first and foremost) take this context into consideration when reading the rest of each chapter. "


That is why you took issue when I pointed out:

: TonkaTim

: raggthyme13Christians believe and teach that the Lord completely changed the subject to a far and final judgment of all mankind.

The reason they feel that way is because Jesus is answering three questions.

Lets take a look;
"1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

1. First question = "when shall these things be?" (Temple destroyed)

2. Second question = "what shall be the sign of thy coming?"

3. Third question = "and of the end of the world?"

These three questions are why.

The Temple is gone but the world is still here.

The reason you prefer the phrasing in Luke. You don't want to consider the time transition.

In Luke Jesus does make the time transition from early to late in verse 24:
"And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

Another one of the reasons the Ancients to many in the present age consider earthly Jerusalem Babylon the Great. I know you preterist do as well, but for some reason you guys do not want to talk about or consider the time transition Jesus tells us about. I wish yall would.

When the earthly city is no longer trodden down Jesus says in the next verses:
"25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."


Looks like it is getting closer & closer. Folks really need to be looking up. Looking at the evidence. Looking to the heavenly, looking to Jesus.


As a side note; when I see folks looking down at their iPhones all the time I see irony.
Looks like everyone is walking around praying.
But they are not.
Minds are filled with inane Facebook memes..
as they bump into light posts & each other...
completely clueless about their desperate need for Jesus Christ.

How does one tell someone about Jesus when they can not even look up to pay any attention?

It's not that I prefer the phrasing in Luke.. Mark actually phrases it the same way. Only Matthew mentions the sign in reference to his "parousia and the end of the aiōn".

It just seems that we need to consider the way Luke records the conversation between Jesus and his disciples, because in his account they only asked two questions and both were in regards to the desolation of the temple. I am convinced that we should read the Lord's full answer to them in this context and not assume he randomly jumps to a far-removed, universal judgment in verse 24. Assumption is never better than reasonable deduction, is it?

So, going off of the phrasing in Luke and Mark, I think it's sensible to deduce that in Matthew's account, the disciples tied his coming and the end of the world/age directly to the impending judgment upon Jerusalem and the (herodian) temple. In my opinion, there is a very specific reason the Holy Spirit inspired them to write it as they did. Isn't it at least possible (in your mind) that God wanted us to tie these things together as well? If not, why not?

I don't think I could call Judgement far-removed.

Why not take all three in context? Together?

Rather than rationalize away certain passages?


If the destruction of earthly Jerusalem was the sign of the permanent end of the Mosaic age, also becoming a symbol of apostasy during the Christian age(Galations 4), why would it not also be the same sign for the permanent end of the entire earth age?

Isn't that the expectation?
"the earth shall be clean dissolved"?
"the former things are passed away"?
"For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind."?
(Isaiah 24,65, Rev 21)

So the permanent death of the widow must come to pass too showing the Bride & Groom to be completely free in the new?
Why symbolically the Wedding Supper does not take place until the widow is gone?

Have you ever consider that possibility?

: TonkaTim  Wed May 11, 2016 - 17:08:23
I don't think I could call Judgement far-removed.

Why not take all three in context? Together?

Rather than rationalize away certain passages?

Far-removed from their time, that is. Why assume he spoke of another besides the one they asked him about? In two out of three accounts it was recorded that they specifically asked him two questions, when the stones would be thrown down and what sign would be when these things would come to pass. I do find it interesting that Jesus' answer to them (in all three books) began with,

"Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by." 

What does this end have to do with either of the questions above unless the account in Matthew helps us to understand that this end refers to those "days of vengeance", the end of the world/age? Again, is it at all possible that God would have us tie these events together even as it appears the disciples did?

: raggthyme13  Wed May 11, 2016 - 16:03:29


So, going off of the phrasing in Luke and Mark, I think it's sensible to deduce that in Matthew's account, the disciples tied his coming and the end of the world/age directly to the impending judgment upon Jerusalem and the (herodian) temple. In my opinion, there is a very specific reason the Holy Spirit inspired them to write it as they did. Isn't it at least possible (in your mind) that God wanted us to tie these things together as well? If not, why not?

If the last Book that ended The Bible were the Gospel Books, then the "herodian" temple idea might apply. But alas, as usual, men's doctrines always leave out portions of Bible Scripture that changes their interpretation, and in this case it's Revelation 11:1-2 which is within 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe timing at the end of this world, proving men's Preterist ideology as false.

: dpr  Thu May 12, 2016 - 18:37:58

: raggthyme13  Wed May 11, 2016 - 16:03:29


So, going off of the phrasing in Luke and Mark, I think it's sensible to deduce that in Matthew's account, the disciples tied his coming and the end of the world/age directly to the impending judgment upon Jerusalem and the (herodian) temple. In my opinion, there is a very specific reason the Holy Spirit inspired them to write it as they did. Isn't it at least possible (in your mind) that God wanted us to tie these things together as well? If not, why not?

If the last Book that ended The Bible were the Gospel Books, then the "herodian" temple idea might apply. But alas, as usual, men's doctrines always leave out portions of Bible Scripture that changes their interpretation, and in this case it's Revelation 11:1-2 which is within 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe timing at the end of this world, proving men's Preterist ideology as false.

Not sure what you're saying here.. do you believe the Lord spoke of another temple in the gospel accounts?

Rev 11:

1Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the number of worshipers there. 2But exclude the courtyard outside the temple. Do not measure it, because it has been given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months."

Don't you find it at least partially intriguing that the desolation of Jerusalem in ad70 lasted three and a half years???

Why do you believe John (in Revelation) wasn't writing about the temple standing when Christ walked the earth? Is it because you believe in the late dating of the book?

How do you then explain that Jesus answered their question about the dismantling of the temple stones with,

"Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by." 

What does this end have to do with either of their questions (in Mark and Luke's account) unless Matthew helps us to understand that this end refers to those "days of vengeance" Luke wrote about... the desolation of Jerusalem and what is called "Herod's" temple.

raggthyme13, What about the very next verse?
"3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."

And their power?
"4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will."


I ask because you have successfully hijacked this discussion about Matthew 24:34 & turned it into a preterism debate.

How do your in your preterist view explain them since you say it already happened?

I ask that question because 1260 days divided by 30 = 42 months

Who where the two witnesses during the seige in 70AD?

"And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven."

When did this happen during the siege in 70AD?

: TonkaTim  Thu May 12, 2016 - 23:26:34
raggthyme13, What about the very next verse?
"3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."

And their power?
"4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will."


I ask because you have successfully hijacked this discussion about Matthew 24:34 & turned it into a preterism debate.

How do your in your preterist view explain them since you say it already happened?

I ask that question because 1260 days divided by 30 = 42 months

Who where the two witnesses during the seige in 70AD?

"And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven."

When did this happen during the siege in 70AD?

My apologies for getting this thread off track, but it is in the preterist forum... and the OP was geared towards preterists. "This generation" is (in my opinion) the generation that sees "these things" come to pass. I originally brought up Luke because it seems the question is answered when the context of the chapter is taken into consideration. The generation that lived during the days of vengeance upon Jerusalem and said temple would be the generation that sees all these things come to pass. But replying to several people, I will agree, I inadvertently hijacked the later discussions here. Again, my apologies.


As to your question about the two witnesses, I would be foolish to say that I knew. I appreciate what Adam Clarke observed,

"This is extremely obscure; the conjectures of interpreters are as unsatisfactory as they are endless on this point. Those who wish to be amused or bewildered, may have recourse both to ancients and moderns on this subject."

I think I have asked a very simple question and before I dismiss myself I would really love for someone to attempt to answer...

How does one explain that Jesus (in both Luke and Mark) began answering their question about the dismantling of the temple stones with,

"Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by." 

What does this "end" have to do with either of their questions unless Matthew's account helps us to understand that it refers specifically to the "days of vengeance" Luke wrote about... the desolation of Jerusalem and what is called "Herod's" temple.

raggthyme13 said "My apologies for getting this thread off track, but it is in the preterist forum"

Umm, this is in the debate section. It was a debate between Red Baker & Tyler in 2014. It was recently resurrected by dpr in post 17:
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/debates-111/this-generation~matthew-2434/msg1055023086/#msg1055023086 (http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/debates-111/this-generation~matthew-2434/msg1055023086/#msg1055023086)


I joined in post 19 here - http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/debates-111/this-generation~matthew-2434/msg1055023427/#msg1055023427 (http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/debates-111/this-generation~matthew-2434/msg1055023427/#msg1055023427)




Then you join in post 33 - http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/debates-111/this-generation~matthew-2434/msg1055023890/#msg1055023890 (http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/debates-111/this-generation~matthew-2434/msg1055023890/#msg1055023890)
and inject preterism with this statement:
"If you go back to the first few verses you will see the simple context is the "herodian" temple and it's impending destruction. After all, that's what the disciples were referring to when they asked him when and what signs would ensue. Yet many Christians believe and teach that the Lord completely changed the subject to a far and final judgment of all mankind. I would agree, "this generation" seems to be the generation which sees these things come to pass... but these things coming to pass had to do with the razing of the temple standing before them (if the context of the chapter is being considered)."

Then in your next post you want to move to the book of Luke & continue your conversation about preterism. That is ok we all know you are a preterist.
We've all talked to you about it before & understand your position.

: raggthyme13I would really love for someone to attempt to answer

The reason most folks can't answer that question is because they do not believe it has happened.

If did happen in 70AD I'm quite sure Josephus would have reported it in his eye-witness account of such phenomenal events.
He reported on the signs in the sky & the great voice saying "let us depart from this place"


Josephus does give a detailed account.


If it had happened in the  siege of 70AD there would be recorded history & witnesses to the two witnesses.


But you know this. Why you so nimbly side-stepped the question.
Very well done.

: raggthyme13  Wed May 11, 2016 - 11:48:00Always a pleasure discussing with you.

I have the same spirit toward you, indeed a pleasure, and we're here to learn from each other, if God is please to open our hearts to his precious word. I have been very sick with an usual end of spring flu bug, so please bear with me to gather my thoughts.  I'm very weak still as it lingers on.

The disciples are raving about the magnificence of the temple. Jesus replies that it's stones will be completely dismantled. They ask when these things will be and what sign there will be. He proceeds to answer them. I firmly believe we should (first and foremost) take this context into consideration when reading the rest of each chapter.

Dear believer, you are absolutely correct, and as we do, then it becomes very evident that 70 A.D. was not even on Jesus' mind, we must assume it is, specially in the light of false teaching on the Oilvet discourse. Sister, Jesus' words were not fulfilled as literal as you and others believe, yet in THAT DAY when Jesus comes again there will not be one stone left upon another.   Even to this very day, the great wailing wall is still THERE! The Wailing Wall is on the western side of the Temple Mount in the Old City of Jerusalem.Still there by the way. Beside, dear soul, the OVERALL context of Matthew 24 takes us far past 70 A.D. and can be intrepreted with Daniel 7-12; 2nd Thess. 2; Revelation 7-20, just as dpr said:

If the last Book that ended The Bible were the Gospel Books, then the "herodian" temple idea might apply. But alas, as usual, men's doctrines always leave out portions of Bible Scripture that changes their interpretation, and in this case it's Revelation 11:1-2 which is within 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe timing at the end of this world, proving men's Preterist ideology as false.

If one had never heard of 70 A. D., then they would have never even try to force the scriptures on end time into 70. A.D.  All of Matthew 24 and 25 is speaking of the latter days of the church age just before Jesus' second coming And the generation that shall not pass until all be fulfilled is the generation of FALSE PROPHETS and evil and wicked men, that shall actually ABOUND in that day. The world will not be converted but evil men shall wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. 2nd Timothy 3:1-4:5 fits perfectly with Matthew 24.

: TonkaTim  Fri May 13, 2016 - 02:59:32
raggthyme13 said "My apologies for getting this thread off track, but it is in the preterist forum"

Umm, this is in the debate section. It was a debate between Red Baker & Tyler in 2014. It was recently resurrected by dpr in post 17:
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/debates-111/this-generation~matthew-2434/msg1055023086/#msg1055023086 (http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/debates-111/this-generation~matthew-2434/msg1055023086/#msg1055023086)


I joined in post 19 here - http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/debates-111/this-generation~matthew-2434/msg1055023427/#msg1055023427 (http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/debates-111/this-generation~matthew-2434/msg1055023427/#msg1055023427)




Then you join in post 33 - http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/debates-111/this-generation~matthew-2434/msg1055023890/#msg1055023890 (http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/debates-111/this-generation~matthew-2434/msg1055023890/#msg1055023890)
and inject preterism with this statement:
"If you go back to the first few verses you will see the simple context is the "herodian" temple and it's impending destruction. After all, that's what the disciples were referring to when they asked him when and what signs would ensue. Yet many Christians believe and teach that the Lord completely changed the subject to a far and final judgment of all mankind. I would agree, "this generation" seems to be the generation which sees these things come to pass... but these things coming to pass had to do with the razing of the temple standing before them (if the context of the chapter is being considered)."

Then in your next post you want to move to the book of Luke & continue your conversation about preterism. That is ok we all know you are a preterist.
We've all talked to you about it before & understand your position.

: raggthyme13I would really love for someone to attempt to answer

The reason most folks can't answer that question is because they do not believe it has happened.

If did happen in 70AD I'm quite sure Josephus would have reported it in his eye-witness account of such phenomenal events.
He reported on the signs in the sky & the great voice saying "let us depart from this place"


Josephus does give a detailed account.


If it had happened in the  siege of 70AD there would be recorded history & witnesses to the two witnesses.


But you know this. Why you so nimbly side-stepped the question.
Very well done.

I don't see how I side-stepped. I said plainly that I would be foolish to say I knew (because there has been so much debate throughout the centuries about the identity of the two witnesses). Josephus speaks of a Jesus, Son of Ananus pronouncing woes against Jerusalem for those 3 1/2 years. Some say he, as Christ himself, fits the bill. Some say Peter and Paul. Some, the church and it's persecution. There are many ideas about who they were/are, some literal, some figurative (as you probably know) but I am not fully convinced of any of them. (And I should add that many preterists actually believe that the temple spoken of in Revelation 11:1 is not the earthly temple, but the heavenly one... namely the church.) I just do not know for sure one way or the other.

None of this really matters much to me though, because not knowing their identity does not negate the context in which the prophecy (in the gospel accounts) was spoken. It is stated in the first few verses of each chapter for all to see. The temple standing before them was the only temple spoken about in all three of those chapters. I have asked non-preterists before to show me where Jesus mentions another temple in Matthew, Mark or Luke.. they cannot. 

It is merely speculation to say the Lord prophesied that day of some future temple stones being thrown down. You'd have to dismiss the context completely to believe that. My original post here was saying just that, contextually, "this generation" would be the generation which saw all the things leading up to the razing of Herod's temple. That would be a direct reply to the original post. That one was not off topic.

Red said:
"I would like to present a debate to all perterist on the phrase This generation, as it is defined for us from the scriptures.  The corner stone of their eschatology rest entirely upon their understanding of this generation."


I believe anything I've sidetracked with here was in reply to someone else's reply to me.


As far as the debate section goes, I have always thought that it was under the preterist section, my mistake. That seems silly now that I think of it, since there is no debate section anywhere else.  ::doh::


"The reason most folks can't answer that question is because they do not believe it has happened."

Are you saying most people don't believe Jesus was talking about the temple in his day?? I would say most people can read the context very clearly to see what temple is front and center:

And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.


My question was simply:

Why would Jesus (in Mark and Luke) begin to answer them about "false Christs" and "the end" when their questions

1. "When will these things be?"

and

2. "What sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?"


were obviously concerning the temple standing before them??

I would like an answer to that, if possible.

: RB  Fri May 13, 2016 - 04:50:01

: raggthyme13  Wed May 11, 2016 - 11:48:00Always a pleasure discussing with you.

I have the same spirit toward you, indeed a pleasure, and we're here to learn from each other, if God is please to open our hearts to his precious word. I have been very sick with an usual end of spring flu bug, so please bear with me to gather my thoughts.  I'm very weak still as it lingers on.

The disciples are raving about the magnificence of the temple. Jesus replies that it's stones will be completely dismantled. They ask when these things will be and what sign there will be. He proceeds to answer them. I firmly believe we should (first and foremost) take this context into consideration when reading the rest of each chapter.

Dear believer, you are absolutely correct, and as we do, then it becomes very evident that 70 A.D. was not even on Jesus' mind, we must assume it is, specially in the light of false teaching on the Oilvet discourse. Sister, Jesus' words were not fulfilled as literal as you and others believe, yet in THAT DAY when Jesus comes again there will not be one stone left upon another.   Even to this very day, the great wailing wall is still THERE! The Wailing Wall is on the western side of the Temple Mount in the Old City of Jerusalem.Still there by the way. Beside, dear soul, the OVERALL context of Matthew 24 takes us far past 70 A.D. and can be intrepreted with Daniel 7-12; 2nd Thess. 2; Revelation 7-20, just as dpr said:

If the last Book that ended The Bible were the Gospel Books, then the "herodian" temple idea might apply. But alas, as usual, men's doctrines always leave out portions of Bible Scripture that changes their interpretation, and in this case it's Revelation 11:1-2 which is within 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe timing at the end of this world, proving men's Preterist ideology as false.

If one had never heard of 70 A. D., then they would have never even try to force the scriptures on end time into 70. A.D.  All of Matthew 24 and 25 is speaking of the latter days of the church age just before Jesus' second coming And the generation that shall not pass until all be fulfilled is the generation of FALSE PROPHETS and evil and wicked men, that shall actually ABOUND in that day. The world will not be converted but evil men shall wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. 2nd Timothy 3:1-4:5 fits perfectly with Matthew 24.

Thank you for your reply, Red. It's very late, so I will start with the topic of the Wailing Wall. Many point the fact that it still stands as evidence that Jesus' prophesy did not come to pass in the first century. Please consider this snippet from www.jewishvirtuallibrary.com (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.com):

When Rome destroyed the Second Temple in 70 C.E., only one outer wall remained standing. The Romans probably would have destroyed that wall as well, but it must have seemed too insignificant to them; it was not even part of the Temple itself, just an outer wall surrounding the Temple Mount.

If the context truly was the "buildings" of the temple itself, there would be no need for an outer wall to have been destroyed. As I understand it, history records that each and every stone of the temple was thrown down as the Roman armies made sure to collect every bit of gold therein. In this, Jesus' words were fulfilled literally in the siege.

I will write more as I can.

: raggthyme13  Thu May 12, 2016 - 23:00:13

If the last Book that ended The Bible were the Gospel Books, then the "herodian" temple idea might apply. But alas, as usual, men's doctrines always leave out portions of Bible Scripture that changes their interpretation, and in this case it's Revelation 11:1-2 which is within 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe timing at the end of this world, proving men's Preterist ideology as false.

Not sure what you're saying here.. do you believe the Lord spoke of another temple in the gospel accounts?

Rev 11:

1Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the number of worshipers there. 2But exclude the courtyard outside the temple. Do not measure it, because it has been given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months."

Don't you find it at least partially intriguing that the desolation of Jerusalem in ad70 lasted three and a half years???

Why do you believe John (in Revelation) wasn't writing about the temple standing when Christ walked the earth? Is it because you believe in the late dating of the book?

How do you then explain that Jesus answered their question about the dismantling of the temple stones with,

"Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by." 

What does this end have to do with either of their questions (in Mark and Luke's account) unless Matthew helps us to understand that this end refers to those "days of vengeance" Luke wrote about... the desolation of Jerusalem and what is called "Herod's" temple.
[/quote]

The temple shown in Rev.11:1-2 definitely is not the same temple during the Apostle's day.

The time reference of Christ's Olivet discourse is for the very end of this world, which is the subject His disciples asked Him about, i.e., His 2nd coming and the end of this world...

Matt 24:3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?
KJV

Simple grammar requires one to stay on that specific subject they asked Him, and not travel to la-la land with men's leaven added to the Scripture.

That means ---

1. The temple Jesus was talking about when referencing the then standing temple was the future temple of Rev.11:1-2 that is for the end of this world just prior to His 2nd coming, which the Jews in Jerusalem today are preparing to build.

2. The Olivet discourse signs Jesus gave actually are the Revelation Seals of Rev.6. If He was not giving signs of the end of this world, then His Olivet signs would not align with Revelation which was definitely written about the events at the end of this world.

3. The "abomination of desolation" event from the Book of Daniel is about the placing of a idol in the temple at Jerusalem, making the temple DESOLATE spiritually. It is NOT about destruction of the temple. Jesus gave the "abomination of desolation" event from Daniel as one of the signs, and that event did NOT happen in 70 A.D., as the temple burned before the Romans could seize it.

4. The very last sign Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse was that of His 2nd coming, which did not happen then, nor has it happened yet today, and it WILL be a literal resurrection bodily return of our Lord Jesus, in the same transfigured body He had after The Father raised Him which His disciples saw after His death and resurrection.

This is all so... simple, if one follows the Scriptures as they are actually written. But it appears websites like these are designed more for make-believe, since seldom do I find that many staying within God's Word without defaulting to doctrines of men.

Then debate Red. Like I said it is a two year old thread. I was happily talking with dpr. I was following up with him on a conversation dpr & I had in Personal message. Red seems to enjoy your conversation. I don't. I find your responses disingenuous like your above posts. Too many feints of ignorance when questions are inconvenient, circular reasoning & logical fallacies.

: TonkaTim  Fri May 13, 2016 - 09:18:01
Then debate Red. Like I said it is a two year old thread. I was happily talking with dpr. I was following up with him on a conversation dpr & I had in Personal message. Red seems to enjoy your conversation. I don't. I find your responses disingenuous like your above posts. Too many feints of ignorance when questions are inconvenient, circular reasoning & logical fallacies.

That's fine, Tim. My first post here was to dpr anyhow. You just happened to respond to it and that's why you and I found ourselves in a conversation. Personally, I like talking to you, and pretty much everyone else I've come across on this forum. Sorry you don't feel the same.

I will discuss this with Red and leave you to your debate with dpr.

raggthyme13, thank you for your kind response. That is one of the things I do appreciate about you. You always seems you do try to be generous & kind to folks. Our problem is this particular topic & our perspectives put us at odds on it. I try to be kind as well, but feel I fail miserably when the two of us discuss this particular topic. I admit I get frustrated. It is usually difficult to do that to me. What seems so obvious to me on this topic seems so obscure to you. I struggle with your debating style as well. Outside this one topic I believe should have a lot of common ground & conversation on those topics on which we agree would probably be quite enjoyable. Hopefully we can have an enjoyable conversations on other topics in the near future.

: raggthyme13  Fri May 13, 2016 - 05:33:58As I understand it, history records that each and every stone of the temple was thrown down as the Roman armies made sure to collect every bit of gold therein. In this, Jesus' words were fulfilled literally in the siege.

A few thoughts for you to consider: Remember I said these words:

Beside, dear soul, the OVERALL context of Matthew 24 takes us far past 70 A.D. and can be interpreted with Daniel 7-12; 2nd Thess. 2; Revelation 7-20, just as dpr said:

There is so much in Matthew 24,25 that will not give us any support in trying to limit~"one stones left upon another to 70 A.D."  That's my main reason of rejecting the 70 A. D. theory, and a theory it is. Jesus spoke of many things following verses 2,3, of Matthew 24 that clearly takes us to the last days of the church age and the great tribulation that shall plague the outward professing church of Jesus Christ. History shall indeed repeat itself~just as Israel in Jeremiah's days suffered greatly spiritually as far as embracing the true worship of their God and spirituality was at a all time low, so shall the Gentiles churches follow suite and will apostate from God and will be taken over by the same spirit of Mystery Babylon! There are much in verses 5-30 of Matthew 24, that will not allow you to limit it to 70 A.D. Personally, I care less what happened in 70 A.D. since the scriptures said nothing about it and history at best are mixed with lies. Were you there in 70 A.D.? Neither was I. But, we both have God's word that is totally silence concerning that time period; vain men have labored endlessly trying to use that time period to twist and pervert God's word, namely because of the sound bites in the scriptures available at their finger tips, which God put there to allow men to be deceived who were ordained to this condemnation, just as Jude spoke of!   

When the "fullness of time" had come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, and made under the law, to redeem them that were under its curse, that we might receive the adoption of sons. His eternal purpose had reach another level of unfolding his eternal mysteries, one being that the two (Jews and Gentiles) shall become ONE in Jesus Christ.  All of the OT~ people,(Israel after the flesh)  worship, and its temple, were only meant to be temporary until  God's hidden mysteries could run their courses, and once that happen after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, then those weak and beggarly temporary substitutes were to be destroyed, and done away with forever. On many things we no longer look through a dark glass, but can read our NT covenant with so much clearness that those OT saints could. 

Now, that being said, would you like me to give you many proofs that what is recorded for us in verses 5-30 is without questioning, could never have been fulfilled in 70. A.D.?  Beside, Paul and John took Jesus' words from his understanding of Daniel, and they both applied them to the latter days just before Jesus' coming again and this world passing away with fervent heat.  Would you like to have proof, and if provided, will you prove to me that my interpretation is not correct, with proof of your own? 

: RB  Sat May 14, 2016 - 04:59:57

: raggthyme13  Fri May 13, 2016 - 05:33:58As I understand it, history records that each and every stone of the temple was thrown down as the Roman armies made sure to collect every bit of gold therein. In this, Jesus' words were fulfilled literally in the siege.

A few thoughts for you to consider: Remember I said these words:

Beside, dear soul, the OVERALL context of Matthew 24 takes us far past 70 A.D. and can be interpreted with Daniel 7-12; 2nd Thess. 2; Revelation 7-20, just as dpr said:

There is so much in Matthew 24,25 that will not give us any support in trying to limit~"one stones left upon another to 70 A.D."  That's my main reason of rejecting the 70 A. D. theory, and a theory it is. Jesus spoke of many things following verses 2,3, of Matthew 24 that clearly takes us to the last days of the church age and the great tribulation that shall plague the outward professing church of Jesus Christ. History shall indeed repeat itself~just as Israel in Jeremiah's days suffered greatly spiritually as far as embracing the true worship of their God and spirituality was at a all time low, so shall the Gentiles churches follow suite and will apostate from God and will be taken over by the same spirit of Mystery Babylon! There are much in verses 5-30 of Matthew 24, that will not allow you to limit it to 70 A.D. Personally, I care less what happened in 70 A.D. since the scriptures said nothing about it and history at best are mixed with lies. Were you there in 70 A.D.? Neither was I. But, we both have God's word that is totally silence concerning that time period; vain men have labored endlessly trying to use that time period to twist and pervert God's word, namely because of the sound bites in the scriptures available at their finger tips, which God put there to allow men to be deceived who were ordained to this condemnation, just as Jude spoke of!   

When the "fullness of time" had come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, and made under the law, to redeem them that were under its curse, that we might receive the adoption of sons. His eternal purpose had reach another level of unfolding his eternal mysteries, one being that the two (Jews and Gentiles) shall become ONE in Jesus Christ.  All of the OT~ people,(Israel after the flesh)  worship, and its temple, were only meant to be temporary until  God's hidden mysteries could run their courses, and once that happen after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, then those weak and beggarly temporary substitutes were to be destroyed, and done away with forever. On many things we no longer look through a dark glass, but can read our NT covenant with so much clearness that those OT saints could. 

Now, that being said, would you like me to give you many proofs that what is recorded for us in verses 5-30 is without questioning, could never have been fulfilled in 70. A.D.?  Beside, Paul and John took Jesus' words from his understanding of Daniel, and they both applied them to the latter days just before Jesus' coming again and this world passing away with fervent heat.  Would you like to have proof, and if provided, will you prove to me that my interpretation is not correct, with proof of your own?

Hi Red,

My apologies for taking so long to reply, life has been very busy and stressful lately. When I said Jesus' words were fulfilled in the siege, I was referring to the words he spoke in Matthew 24:2:

"Do you see all these things?... Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another: every one will be thrown down."



I simply believe he meant it when he said that every stone of that temple would be thrown down. I believe the Romans did just that. I do not believe the Western Wall was ever part of the temple. It standing today does not make the prophecy unfulfilled. I realize we will not come to an agreement on this, and I am not in a position (time wise) right now to debate the entire chapter. However, I would like to see the proof you offer if you would like to give it.

I will say that in order to find sufficient evidence that the events in Matthew 24 took place in the first century, one would have to read historical accounts of the wars and accept that the "end of the age" and his "parousia" is synonymous with the desolation of Jerusalem and said temple. Also one would have to accept that the events are not always literal (i.e. the stars of heaven falling) and must first consider the apocalyptic language of the OT in reference to past judgments.

I would like to add that I do not necessarily disregard a future coming of Christ. I hope for it, actually. This world is really ripe for judgment. But I cannot in all honesty say I find such a coming in the word of God, one that does not relate to that particular desolation. I just cannot see it.

: raggthyme13  Fri May 27, 2016 - 03:59:06
I would like to add that I do not necessarily disregard a future coming of Christ. I hope for it, actually. This world is really ripe for judgment. But I cannot in all honesty say I find such a coming in the word of God, one that does not relate to that particular desolation. I just cannot see it.

The abomination that causes desolation is something which is connected to the destruction of the Temple in 70AD.  So, you're right, this has nothing to do with a future coming of Christ.  You're also right that this world is ripe for judgement.  But, we won't see Jesus until after we die. 

: Tertullian  Fri Aug 26, 2016 - 08:22:00

The abomination that causes desolation is something which is connected to the destruction of the Temple in 70AD.  So, you're right, this has nothing to do with a future coming of Christ.  You're also right that this world is ripe for judgement. 

I'm leaving to go to a wedding in N.C.~I would love for you to come back to this thread and discuss a few things with me, if you are so sure you are correct. I'll be back Monday, the Lord willing. Matthew 24 is CONNECTED with Matthew 25 and is ONE discourse, covering ONE SUBJECT, and should NOT be separated; and I will not allow you, or any Perterist, or Historic person to try to separate the two.

But, we won't see Jesus until after we die.

Not totally true~some will NEVER taste of death, but will be living when Jesus SHALL return for the SECOND time to gather together his own, and to destroyed the wicked.

: RB  Fri Aug 26, 2016 - 08:57:45I'm leaving to go to a wedding in N.C.~I would love for you to come back to this thread and discuss a few things with me, if you are so sure you are correct. I'll be back Monday, the Lord willing.

The Lord may have been willing, but RB own will has failed.  Monday has come and gone. 

Not totally true~some will NEVER taste of death, but will be living when Jesus SHALL return for the SECOND time to gather together his own, and to destroyed the wicked.

Never taste death?  But, First Corinthians chapter 15 says "all die" and that all have to die.  As if talking to Rapture believers, Paul says, "You fool! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies."

There's no use of the phrase "not taste death" in the Bible that refers to avoiding the death of the body.

: Tertullian  Wed Aug 31, 2016 - 05:46:40The Lord may have been willing, but RB own will has failed.  Monday has come and gone.

Okay, I forgot~ but do not take that as though I cannot answer you. I'm short on time, but I will not forget in morning, and even may have time later today, not sure as of yet.

There's no use of the phrase "not taste death" in the Bible that refers to avoiding the death of the body.

In the mean time:

1st Thessalonians 4:16,17~ "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Now, I'm sure men like you will labor to try to say that this was fulfilled in 70 A.D.~ but I can assure you that your efforts will be proven to be fruitless and a lie.

: RB  Wed Aug 31, 2016 - 06:28:15

1st Thessalonians 4:16,17~ "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Now, I'm sure men like you will labor to try to say that this was fulfilled in 70 A.D.~ but I can assure you that your efforts will be proven to be fruitless and a lie.

I can see why some people might believe in a Rapture from 1Thess4.  But, it doesn't stand up to close examination.  The Bible says "all die" and that we can't have heavenly bodies without this body first dying. 

1Thess4 :16-17 in context means those left alive will eventually die and be reunited with loved ones who have already died.  The phrase "remain alive" is a reference to the living, not an assertion that the Thessalonians wouldn't die.  The comfort Paul speaks of is being reunited, not avoiding death.

If Paul had told the Thessalonians that they had a hope of avoiding death, Paul lied, because they all died and God had no plans to Rapture them.  The Rapture is a false hope, and therefor a lie. 

The reason us saints who are reborn in the Spirit of God do not taste death anymore is because we learn our flesh is not our true reality and that death is only an illusion that won't be remembered when we awaken in the New Heaven and Earth within Paradise. Without ever experiencing death in the New generation ( New Heaven and Earth ) and not remembering life in the Old Heaven and Earth, we won't understand what death is.

Isaiah 65
16: So that he who blesses himself in the land shall bless himself by the God of truth, and he who takes an oath in the land shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten and are hid from my eyes.
17: "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.
18: But be glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create; for behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19: I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and be glad in my people; no more shall be heard in it the sound of weeping and the cry of distress.

: Tertullian  Fri Aug 26, 2016 - 08:22:00

The abomination that causes desolation is something which is connected to the destruction of the Temple in 70AD.  So, you're right, this has nothing to do with a future coming of Christ.  You're also right that this world is ripe for judgement.  But, we won't see Jesus until after we die.

Well no, the "abomination of desolation" actually has nothing to do with the destruction of the temple.

It has to do with placing an idol abomination in a standing temple in Jerusalem and bowing in worship to it. This very thing Antiochus IV did in 165-170 B.C. as an example for it.

: Tertullian  Wed Aug 31, 2016 - 17:35:18

: RB  Wed Aug 31, 2016 - 06:28:15

1st Thessalonians 4:16,17~ "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Now, I'm sure men like you will labor to try to say that this was fulfilled in 70 A.D.~ but I can assure you that your efforts will be proven to be fruitless and a lie.

I can see why some people might believe in a Rapture from 1Thess4.  But, it doesn't stand up to close examination.  The Bible says "all die" and that we can't have heavenly bodies without this body first dying. 

1Thess4 :16-17 in context means those left alive will eventually die and be reunited with loved ones who have already died.  The phrase "remain alive" is a reference to the living, not an assertion that the Thessalonians wouldn't die.  The comfort Paul speaks of is being reunited, not avoiding death.

If Paul had told the Thessalonians that they had a hope of avoiding death, Paul lied, because they all died and God had no plans to Rapture them.  The Rapture is a false hope, and therefor a lie.

I'm sorry, but you simply sound like someone who hasn't yet really read all of the NT Bible of what Apostle Paul actually said.

The 'change' at the "twinkling of an eye" that Paul taught in 1 Cor.15 is about that 1 Thess.4 event some call a 'rapture'. I mostly use the simple idea of a gathering to Christ, since the word rapture is not used in the KJV and is too often associated with the false Pre-trib Rapture doctrine of John Darby.

In Matt.24:29-31 Jesus showed the asleep saints gathered from heaven. And in Mark 13:24-27 Jesus showed the saints still alive on earth gathered to Him from the earth. Both examples cover Paul's Message in 1 Thess.4 about Christ Jesus gathering two different groups of saints on the day of His coming.

So that coming is NOT about a judgment, it is about a GATHERING TO CHRIST JESUS. And I dare you to say that is not about a gathering to Christ!

: dpr  Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 09:29:26

: Tertullian  Fri Aug 26, 2016 - 08:22:00

The abomination that causes desolation is something which is connected to the destruction of the Temple in 70AD.  So, you're right, this has nothing to do with a future coming of Christ.  You're also right that this world is ripe for judgement.  But, we won't see Jesus until after we die.

Well no, the "abomination of desolation" actually has nothing to do with the destruction of the temple.

It has to do with placing an idol abomination in a standing temple in Jerusalem and bowing in worship to it. This very thing Antiochus IV did in 165-170 B.C. as an example for it.

Sounds like the Muslim Dome of the Rock or the Al Aqsa Mosque.

: Jaime  Mon Feb 13, 2017 - 12:36:41

: dpr  Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 09:29:26

: Tertullian  Fri Aug 26, 2016 - 08:22:00

The abomination that causes desolation is something which is connected to the destruction of the Temple in 70AD.  So, you're right, this has nothing to do with a future coming of Christ.  You're also right that this world is ripe for judgement.  But, we won't see Jesus until after we die.

Well no, the "abomination of desolation" actually has nothing to do with the destruction of the temple.

It has to do with placing an idol abomination in a standing temple in Jerusalem and bowing in worship to it. This very thing Antiochus IV did in 165-170 B.C. as an example for it.

Sounds like the Muslim Dome of the Rock or the Al Aqsa Mosque.

Have you never read Ezekiel 8 & 9? Just because it's something written in the OT prophets still does not mean it is history yet.

When the final beast kingdom is established over all nations for the end of this world, and the beast king comes to sit upon a throne in Jerusalem over it all, then you will learn what the actual meaning of Daniel's "abomination of desolation" phrase is.

The globalist's plans for a "one world government" isn't over just yet. Even someone like Trump won't be able to stop it, because God has ordained it for the end of this world.

Even in my many years I have seen more persecution of Christians in the western nations that I never saw in my youth. That is fulfilling what Jesus and His Apostles told us would happen for the end of this world.

Look at some of the numbers of Revelation and Daniel as to days being prophetic days, and the Dome of the Rock fits exceptionally well. And the temple mount IS and has been desolate ever since the Muslim desolation. In my opinion, Islam IS the beast, and Mohammed is his false prophet. The caliphate (Ottoman empire) was destroyed by the British but is now trying to resurrect itself from it fatal head wound.

: Jaime  Mon Feb 13, 2017 - 13:03:22
Look at some of the numbers of Revelation and Daniel as to days being prophetic days, and the Dome of the Rock fits exceptionally well. And the temple mount IS and has been desolate ever since the Muslim desolation. In my opinion, Islam IS the beast, and Mohammed is his false prophet. The caliphate (Ottoman empire) was destroyed by the British but is now trying to resurrect itself from it fatal head wound.

The meaning of the "abomination of desolation" per the Book of Daniel is NOT... about a destruction of the temple in Jerusalem. It's about the placing of an idol abomination inside the temple that desolates it spiritually. The AOD event requires... a standing Jewish temple in Jerusalem. What Antiochus IV did in 170-165 B.C. is a blueprint for it. This is why in Matt.24 Jesus warned of the future "abomination of desolation" in conjunction with the coming of a pseud-Christ (KJV "false Christs" = pseudochristos in the Greek).

The only time I use the days = type of conversion thing is with the actual Scripture that is given with it. In Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy, the days for years we are told what they are, with a final period of 7 still remaining, so really there's no guesswork nor does it point to the Dome of the Rock mosque.

Daniel 11 is a continuation of the final "one week" prophecy. And in Daniel 11 we are shown about animal sacrifices starting up again with a "vile person" coming to power using flatteries with a small group of people. Then he will end the daily sacrifice and instead place the abomination that makes desolate (an idol in the temple desolating it).

That will involve a rebuilt Jewish temple in Jerusalem. The Muslims would never... allow animal sacrifices in the Dome of the Rock. Their's is not like Jewish old testament history. The Jews today are preparing to build their temple, have the materials ready, and have been preparing the Levitical priesthood and temple artifacts (see Land of Israel and Temple Mount Faithful website).

I didn't say it was about the temple's destruction. The Dome of the Rock is and has been an abomination on the site and to the world for centuries, leaving the site Desolate of the one true God, as it were.

As to the days I spoke of, think 1335. from the 7th century construction of the Dome, especially lunar years as was the reckoning of the time of the writing.

: Jaime  Mon Feb 13, 2017 - 13:57:59
I didn't say it was about the temple's destruction. The Dome of the Rock is and has been an abomination on the site and to the world for centuries, leaving the site Desolate of the one true God, as it were.

As to the days I spoke of, think 1335. from the 7th century construction of the Dome, especially lunar years as was the reckoning of the time of the writing.

It's impossible to miss the false worship created by the coming Antichrist ("little horn" or "vile person") given in Daniel, and further outlined by our Lord Jesus in Matthew 24:23-26, and by Paul in 2 Thess.2:4, and by John in Rev.13:11 forward. Sticking to God's Word on that means there's no way to come to a conclusion that the "abomination of desolation" is about a foreign shrine located on the temple mount while the Jewish temple is gone.

Dan 11:30-31
30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
KJV

I disagree. What is your thoughts on the 1290 days and the 1335 days in Daniel 12: 11-12?

: Jaime  Tue Feb 14, 2017 - 08:51:47
I disagree. What is your thoughts on the 1290 days and the 1335 days in Daniel 12: 11-12?

Dan 12:11-12
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
KJV

Pretty simple actually. When the daily sacrifice is ended and the abomination idol is setup in the middle of Daniel's final "one week" of Dan.9:27, (meaning after the first half of the 7 year period or after 1260 days). The 1290 days is the second half of the "one week", a period of 1260 days + 30 days. And the 1335 days is 45 more days after that.

I believe the 1335 days are when those in Christ are blessed involving Christ's de facto 1,000 years reign on earth after His 2nd coming, those being the only ones found alive that waited for His literal return. I believe the 30 days involve the cleansing of the sanctuary per Dan.8:14.


What The Abomination of Desolation Is Really About:

Dan 11:23
23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.
KJV

That "vile person" who comes to power in Jerusalem will work deceits among a "small people" meaning a small group of leaders. This "league" will be the 7 years peace agreement looked for by Bible scholars. It will involve the re-establishing for the Jews in Jerusalem the Old Covenant worship involving another Jewish temple, the Levitical priesthood, and animal sacrifices, as these verses will show.


Dan 11:28
28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.
KJV

The vile person (Antichrist) will be against "the holy covenant", which for the orthodox unbelieving Jews means the Old Covenant they believe they are still under today.


Dan 11:30-36
30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

Then he will forsake the re-established Old Covenant, end the daily sacrifice requirement under that Old Covenant, and then instead place an idol abomination in the Jewish temple to be worshipped instead.


31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

That "pollute" idea is actually what the 'desolation' idea is about involving the temple (or sanctuary here). That abomination idol that is placed inside the temple will pollute it, make it spiritually desolate. (This very thing Antiochus IV did in the second temple in Jerusalem in 170-165 B.C., placing an idol to Zeus in it after having sacrificed swine upon the altar.)


32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

It must be remembered that the scribes of Israel were the Kenites of the lands of Canaan (1 Chron.2:55). They were foreigners. Also, the Canaanites which Israel was not able to destroy became temple servants and eventually worked their way into the priesthood as Nethinims and priests. Thus by the time of Jesus, the scribes and Pharisees had become corrupted. Most likely that's who these are that will do wickedly against the covenant, and will support Antichrist.


33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.

35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
KJV

That is what the Antichrist is to do, exalt himself as God sitting in the "temple of God" in Jerusalem, and exalt himself over all that called God, or that is worshipped (2 Thess.2:4).

Red Baker,  There is no debating what Jesus said to His disciples unless you change the meaning of His words and grammar.

Your opening sentence settles THIS debate!

Matthew 24:34

     .  "Verily, I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

Do you know what Jesus was talking about, and about who, or do you think He was talking to ghosts when He said "some of you standing here shall not taste death until all these things be fulfilled." ? 

Gosh, it's so plain, I don't know why some Christians create a fantasy when trying to understand the Bible.

: lea  Mon May 08, 2017 - 11:56:16Red Baker,  There is no debating what Jesus said to His disciples unless you change the meaning of His words and grammar.

Your opening sentence settles THIS debate!

Matthew 24:34

     .  "Verily, I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

Stay around for awhile and let us see the true meaning of THIS generation!

Do you know what Jesus was talking about, and about who, or do you think He was talking to ghosts when He said "some of you standing here shall not taste death until all these things be fulfilled." ? 

Gosh, it's so plain,

It is ONLY plain to him that understandeth!

I don't know why some Christians create a fantasy when trying to understand the Bible.

Then why are you doing so? The CONTEXT of Matthew 24 reveals to us just how we should interpret THIS generation. He that HATH ears let HIM HEAR!

Jesus was very carefully choosing his words as he gives to us his final message before leaving this earth.

I'm here, not going anywhere unless God takes me home to be with him. I'm armed and ready, make sure your sword is sharp, you will need it. 

I'm sorry, but did you make a point?

"stay around for awhile"  And analyze two words?  Now that sounds bizarre, to put it nicely. All you said was "he who has ears"

I can read too.  ::doh::

RB, if I were you I'd just ignore someone who has nothing but sarcasm to offer.

: notreligus  Mon May 08, 2017 - 17:28:19RB, if I were you I'd just ignore someone who has nothing but sarcasm to offer.

You are right, I'm not going to cast the pearls of truth before swines

This generation is the very same people that John called Gog and Magog in Revelation 20. Go here and consider:

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/gog-magog/180/

Also connected with this thread would be this one:

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/gleaning-in-matthew-24/

Here's a very short article on This generation~mine are over fifty pages, but this one can be read in five minutes or less.

This Generation Shall Not Pass, Till All These Things be Fulfilled.............By Tony Warren


    Matthew chapter 24 has been a very difficult chapter for many people to understand, and one of the questions that I frequently receive about it, is in regard to verse 34:

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

Many who understand that this Chapter speaks of later day occurrences, are puzzled as to what generation this verse is speaking of. But something which is not well known is that there are several ways in which this word generation is used in scripture. There is the literal family generation, the family generation of evil, and the family generation of Christ. Three very distinct applications of this word.

Another point worthy of note is that scripture has always dated itself by Patriarch fathers. Even to this day we date this way (probably without even giving it much thought). For whenever someone says that, "this is the year 1999," we are dating by the Patriarch reference, Christ (though not accurately). In other words, we are saying that we are living 1,999 years after the birth of of Christ (AD, anno domini, or the year of our Lord). He is the Patriarch reference by which most of the world dates today. This is a biblical and historical practice which goes back to the beginning, and is explained in depth in the paper on the Biblical timeline. So this year is a Patriarch family reference.

The word translated Generation in the New Testament is [genea] or [genos] which means a 'family or kin.' By implication it can also mean a period of a their family, or offspring. For example, someone saying something occurred in the 4th generation, would be telling us that it happened in the period of the family of the 4th born child. It is illustrating a particular family relationship to the Patriarch reference. Understanding this, we can see how God uses the word Generation in scripture to signify not only the family of God, but the family of the adversary, the devil. This is easily proven. Children of God, and children of Satan are two diverse generations. And the way the Generation of evil is applied in scripture, makes it synonymous with the children (or family) of the Devil. It does not refer to an immediate family group only, but all in that families' patriarchal relationship throughout time. Just as the Children of God refer to the whole family of God, which is a chosen generation throughout time, and not just people living at the time in which it was spoken.

John 8:44

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
Jesus is clearly elucidating that they are part of a particular spiritual family group, and identifies their father as the devil, a murderer from the beginning. Satan is the Patriarch reference for their generation, and he has many children, and not just these who Christ was immediately speaking to. All those under Satan's control are the generation or family of evil. His children which existed from the beginning, and which are under the judgment of God. They are the spiritual offspring of their Patriarch reference, that old Serpent (Satan). The phrase 'generation of vipers' identifies only that family group who serve their father Satan, not everyone in that physical time period.

Matthew 12:32-35

"And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.


Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.


O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.


A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things."
This generation of vipers is not the Apostles, not John the Baptist, not Mary, Elizabeth, or the Church, it is the unregenerate 'family' of evil who cannot escape the damnation of Hell.

It is self evident that if this word meant that physical generation were all vipers who couldn't escape the damnation of hell, then it would mean all, including the Apostles who themselves were part of that 'time generation.' But obviously, Christ is not talking about all that physical generation, He is talking about those who are children of Satan, these are the generation of vipers (Psalms 140:1-3). Evil and wicked men who out of the evil in their hearts bring forth evil things. And so we see that there is not only precedence for the word generation not to be understood to mean that particular time, but many times the context itself demands it not be understood that way. Generation of vipers did not mean everyone there, so it could not mean that physical Generation. It is most obviously speaking about a spiritually wicked family [gennema], not a time period or literal generation there.

We should not lose sight of the fact that in order for the 'All' to be fulfilled in that generation which Christ spoke about in Matthew 24, the time He refers to must be at the end of the world/age. When we study the context and content of Matthew 24, it becomes abundantly clear that this end time is what God is referring to.

Matthew 24:3

"And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
Of course we are well aware of the Preterist claim that the end of the age was in 70 A.D., but that is a Biblically untenable position. The proponents of this theory come to this conclusion by selectively interpreting age/world [aion], and then arbitrarily making the supposition that there was an end of the age in 70 A.D. This, despite the fact that there is absolutely no Biblical warrant for declaring 70 A.D. the end of an Age. Not one scripture makes that claim! And while they insist Matthew 24 (the end of the world) is a mistranslation of the word [aion], which means age, they are still unable to coherently explain verses like:

Luke 18:30

"Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting".
This is the exact same Greek word [aion], meaning world/age. If that present time Jesus spoke in was before 70 A.D., (Jesus spoke this before the cross) is when they received manifold more, and the age to come is Eternal life for them, then obviously 70 A.D. being the coming next age (according to their theory), must have been the age of eternal life Jesus spoke of. But did Life Everlasting start in 70 A.D? No, not at all. The theory is bankrupt! Jesus is obviously speaking not about an alleged age to come in 70 A.D., but about the end of the world/age when He would return and "all" would be fulfilled. That is that world or age to come when we would receive the everlasting life.

This doctrine is confused on many fronts, because there was never any Biblical foundation for making such a prophecy in the first place. Reformed or Biblical Theology must be established on biblical foundations. Of necessity these Theologians would have to place another age in between the cross, and the end of the world, in effect splitting the New Testament period into diverse ages. In essence, the last days, and then the last, last days, because their position on 70 A.D. is untenable without it. However, it is also unbiblical with it!

In matthew 24 God is warning not only the disciples about false teachers, but the Churches throughout time. The Bible isn't just written for those it is addressed to. That is our basic fundamental truth. The Book of Thessalonians is addressed to the Thessalonians, but is written to all the Church, throughout time. The Book of Romans is written to the Romans, but is for the Church, throughout Time. When Jesus told the disciples to do this in remembrance of Him (Communion) it was not simply talking to them, but to the Church, throughout time. This is simply basic hermeneutics and sound exegesis! Likewise, when Jesus said this generation shall not pass till 'all these things' be fulfilled, He was talking to all of the Church throughout time. We will always have false prophets, we will always have wars, we will always have the wicked, because we will always have the generation of evil. ..at least until, 'all is Fulfilled!'

Let's review the context of Matthew 24 for our answer to the question of the generation. Jesus is warning the disciples (and us all) about the coming wickedness (Particularly of those who call themselves of Christ), and how they will come 'as wolves in sheep's clothing,' as false prophets, as false Christ's, with all the signs so clever that it would deceive even the Chosen (Elect) if it were possible. He tells us to watch, for these are the signs that will alert us of His soon Coming. And He says this generation shall not pass until all these things be fulfilled. Note carefully that He says not some, but 'All.' And the only generation which shall not pass until all these things be fulfilled (e.g., false Prophets, nation against nation, abomination of desolation, Gospel preached to the world for a witness, The Great tribulation, the sun be darkened, the moon not giving light, the stars falling from heaven, powers of heaven being shaken, the Son of man coming on the clouds of Glory, etc.), is the Generation of evil. A physical generation will pass, and indeed has passed, and we still have these things. But the generation of evil, producing false Christs', a family of vipers, will be on this earth until Christ returns on the clouds of Glory and all is fulfilled! Every family apart! And this generation of evil will be the family which shall be Judged of God.

Luke 11:50

"That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;"
Is all those people standing there (the physical generation) guilty of the blood of all the Prophets, and will be judged of God for it? God Forbid! The Apostles and all believers there won't have the Blood of the Prophets required of them. That is quite obvious to anyone who knows scripture. God says every man is responsible only for his own sin, not the sins of others Deuteronomy 24:16). Which is why The Blood of these prophets will be required of 'that generation.' ..How? Because Those who killed the Prophets, though they lived hundreds of years before, were part of 'that Generation.' They are part of the family of Satan their father, for the generation of evil spans time.

This couldn't either logically, rationally, or Biblically mean everyone physically there at the time, so what it does mean should be evident with a little thought. It is a kinship of evil. Those of the lineage of Satan. Jesus called them, 'Children of the Devil.' Moreover, let's be clear that this phrase I use (Generation of evil) is not something that I privately dreamed up to support my generation views, it is one which God Himself elucidated upon. It's the Word of God itself:

Luke 11:29

"And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet".
Was Christ speaking of the Apostles or the 70? No, He wasn't talking about the physical generation of that time here, anymore than He was in Matthew chapter 24. He indeed has given signs to the family of God (Mark 16:20, Hebrews 2:4), but He was talking about a specific evil people (particularly of the congregation) who were evil and looked for miracles, signs, and wonders. In Matthew 12:24 Jesus calls them a 'generation' of vipers who cannot escape the damnation of Hell. If we're only to understand the word generation to mean those living there at the time (as some insist we must), then none of the Apostles or anyone else could escape the damnation of hell. But the truth is a lot more simple and in agreement will 'all' of scripture. It is that the generation of evil which cannot escape, and it is those children of Satan. It is the Reprobates, the exact opposites of the Christian family. Christians are called a Chosen Generation. Ask yourself, "How then can the people living at the time be both called of God, a Chosen Generation, and a generation that cannot escape the damnation of hell?" Simple, they are two separate families. Would we say everyone living there at the time must be part of that chosen generation, because someone arrogantly insists the word Generation demands it? Of course not. The 'Chosen Generation' is the family of God, selected by God. It's not everyone, and it's not merely those in that physical time period only.

1st Peter 2:9

"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:"
Here we see the "truth" of the matter. We have two distinct generations coexisting at the same time. A Generation of Evil, and a Chosen Generation. They don't last simply a lifetime, they last until Christ returns. One shall not escape the damnation of Hell, and the other is a special people who shall escape the damnation of Hell. A classic illustration of exactly this concept is found in the book of Luke, chapter 16:

Luke 16:8

"And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light".
The wicked, in their generation? The wicked in their family are wiser than the 'children of Light.' i.e., Children of God verses Children of the Devil. Two Generations. Again, therein is our answer! This is the generation which the Lord was warning the Church against in Matthew chapter 24, was it not? The family or Children of this world. Their Generation is that which shall not pass until 'ALL' be fulfilled. Comparing scripture with scripture, it would be ludicrous for anyone to insist that the word generation always means a physical (at that present time) generation, considering all the pertinent scriptures. Yet there are many who choose to make such untenable statements.

We know certain things for sure. Number one, While some make this claim that the end of the age was at 70 A.D., there is not one single scripture that supports such a conclusion, and many which preclude it. There is a new dispensation when Christ died and was resurrected, but no new age in 70 A.D. Number two, there is nothing in scripture which says the word generation must always be understood as those physical people at the time, and much of scripture which precludes it (as I've clearly shown). Number three, there is abundant proof texts in scripture that the entire New Testament period was (and still is) the end times, the last days, the last age, 'indicating' that there would not be any other age following this one 'except' it be the age to Come (Christ's return and everlasting life). That's when "ALL" will be fulfilled, as required by Matthew 24 and indeed all of scripture. That is when this evil generation shall pass (post millennialism notwithstanding), and the kingdom delivered up to the father, and righteousness be over all. For all this tribulation and evil has not passed, and all has not been fulfilled. That will occur at 'The last Day.'

Revelation 6:11

"And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."
When will all be fulfilled? When this evil generation is no longer ruling with the prince of this world. In other words, when Christ returns! There is no age in between. That's the whole purpose of God using the terms 'last days.' There are no more days after these 'last' days, no more dispensations, no more ages. Else Paul would have spoken of being in the next-to-the-last days. It is self evident that contrary to interpretive license, the last days started at the Cross, not in 70 A.d., and the age to come is when Christ returns. No new age was occurred in 70 A.D. The generation which will not pass till all be fulfilled, is the generation which the whole Chapter of 24 warned of. In context, the false prophets, false teachers, deceivers, false Christs', abomination, tribulation, and all that this evil generation brings forth, will not pass until Christ's return. Then, and only then, will 'ALL' be Fulfilled, as required of the prophecy of matthew 24.

Peace,

RB  -  I hesitate to put a reply in this particular debate forum, simply because I dislike anything that would seem to run counter to Paul's instructions in II Timothy that "the servant of God must not strive..."  However, there were many things I found troubling about the last post you gave with Tony Warren's comments.  Having read elsewhere his rather strange definition of what he thinks scripture means by the word "begat" when making chronologies from the Bible's genealogical records, I'm on guard when I read anything else he writes.

For one thing, RB, why are you quoting someone else's work as an authority on this present subject, when you have soundly (and correctly) stated on many occasions that scripture is your key foundation?  Moreover, this source is attempting to use Greek to bolster his points, which is something that you have criticized before on this forum.  Why are you now utilizing this method vicariously by using Mr. Warren's comments for your argument?

This gentleman's short study here makes a mistake, from the very start - almost the same mistake that Scofield made.  Tony Warren lumps the definition of "GENOS" and "GENEA" together, as if they meant the exact same thing.  They don't.  Scofield intentionally switched the two different Greek words in his margin notes for the word "generation", claiming that "genea" meant "offspring".  It doesn't.  "GENOS" is the word for "offspring", just as it is used in Acts 17:28 (KJV), "As certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring" (genos).

Scripture uses the word "genea" as we would use it to describe, for example, "the hippie generation", or "the greatest generation", or the "generation X" - all of which are anchored to a specific TIME PERIOD.  Scripture gives us its own guideline as to how long a time period it considers a (genea) generation to be, and it is roughly 40 years.  (Psalms 95:10 cp. Hebrews 3:9-10)  "Forty years long was I grieved with this generation...", compared with, "...when your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works FORTY YEARS.  Wherefore I was grieved with THAT GENERATION (genea) and said, They do always err in their heart, and they have not known my ways."

"That generation" was composed of the fathers and their young children that initially came out of Egypt.  There was also another generation (genea) of forty-years duration between the start of Christ's ministry in AD 30 until AD 70.  This is when God did another generational purge before the true Israel of God entered the "promised land" of the stand-alone New Covenant Age.  Why else do you think Christ refers to the "great city" of Jerusalem in Rev. 11:8  in the spiritual sense as "Sodom and EGYPT", and tells His people to "Come out of her"?

In your post, Tony Warren mistakenly claims that "there is not one scripture making [the] claim" that AD 70 represented the end of an Age (aion).  It does.  Is he forgetting entirely Peter's statement in I Peter 4:7 (KJV) that "THE END OF ALL THINGS IS AT HAND" when he wrote that book shortly before his martyrdom in AD 67?  What twisted process does anyone's brain have to go through to re-define Christ's words in Matt. 16:28, Mk. 9:1, etc.?  Christ said then that some of those very ones standing in front of Him at that moment would not "taste of death" before they saw Him coming in His kingdom with power.  That defines the extent of the generation that would see this to the limits of a man's ordinary lifespan.  Likewise, if the church in Thyatira was told to hold fast till He came, (Rev. 2:25), does that not patently prove that this church would be around to see His coming in their generation's (genea) experience during their lifetime?

If you have been paying attention to posts I have already submitted, RB, you know quite well that I hold to scripture's proof of not only a second, bodily coming of Christ to that first-century generation (genea) in AD 70, but also a THIRD, bodily coming of Christ to close out our New Covenant Age.  We are NOT given a choice of EITHER an AD 70 coming OR a future coming.  Scripture presents it as a case of "BOTH / AND" concerning Christ's anticipated returns.

I would welcome the chance to read your 50 pages on the subject of what a generation is, RB.  However, do you really think it should take that much ink to prove the point you're trying to make?  God's usual practice is to hide things from the wise and prudent and reveal them unto babes.  The presentation of this subject need not take reams of paper to explain it at a child's level, as we all are before God.  God put these things on the lowest shelf so that His children of that generation could easily reach them and profit by them in their time.

Another slip by Tony Warren: in Matthew 12:24, the KJV generically describes a "generation of vipers", but more precisely, the Greek term is "genemmata" - translated "brood" or "offspring" of vipers, which includes no reference to a TIME PERIOD at all.  So his point goes astray when he ridicules anyone linking the apostles along with that "generation of vipers" not escaping the damnation of hell (which is really Gehenna).

He also errs when he says there are "no more ages" after Christ's final return at the close of history.  Not so.  In Ephesians 2:7, from the time Paul wrote those words, he spoke of "THE AGES (plural) THAT ARE COMING".  That means at least TWO AGES coming after the one Paul was then occupying.  Consequently, that describes two ages after AD 70's "END OF ALL THINGS".  The first of those two ages is the one we are now in, when the New Covenant alone is presently in place.  It contains no dying remnants of the Old Covenant still hanging around, "ready to pass away", as in Paul's day (Heb. 8:13). 

It also proves there is an age of some kind to come AFTER the one in which we are currently sitting.  This not only refutes Tony Warren's claim, but it also refutes those Full-preterists who incorrectly state that there is no closure to this present age - only endless procreation, with no conclusion in sight for human history.  Instead, Christ's THIRD COMING will occur in our future just before that next age is launched - the one of which Paul spoke.  And if anyone has an issue with a doctrine based on the plural case of the word "ages", they will have to take that up with the Apostle Paul, who made much of the word "Seed" versus the word "seeds" on another occasion.

Tony Warren may have thought his article was a tight argument, but I found it full of holes.  You should resume giving your own thoughts on this instead, RB.  At least that way there is some direct interaction possible.

The Full Preterist:   Don't bother me with the facts.  Revelation was written before A.D. 70.  We ignore the description of Revelation as a prophecy and we ignore the words of the Lord Himself who says that there are things "that are to take place after this."   We can ignore the majority of the Scriptures because anyone who looks beyond A.D. 70 has not become enlightened with the Preterist esoteric knowledge.  God is now on Sabbatical leave and we can take comfort in that He has done all that He needs to do.   

The Full Dispensational:   Don't bother me with the facts.   During the thousand-year Messianic Kingdom there will be a new Temple in Jerusalem and Jesus will step down from the throne and become one of us; but He will be the high priest and will reinstate animal sacrifices as a memorial to Himself and His sacrificial death.    Israel will be restored to the nation she was before God divorced her and Israel will then receive her earthly blessings.   The Gentiles will have been God's bride from the time of the rapture until He returns to set up His Messianic kingdom.   He will leave the Gentiles in Heaven with their heavenly blessings as He returns to the Earth as the Jewish Messiah.   

: 3 Resurrections  Tue May 09, 2017 - 14:38:12RB  -  I hesitate to put a reply in this particular debate forum, simply because I dislike anything that would seem to run counter to Paul's instructions in II Timothy that "the servant of God must not strive..."

Well, you are welcome to bring what you believe to be the truth. But, I have determined not to debate with you UNTIL you reveal yourself to me, and if you insist not to do it, then I have not one thing to say to you. You claim to have been in my house and sat with me in the house of God, yet will not reveal yourself to me...THAT'S CREEPY! You are a smart man, tell me,

What defines a person as creepy?

Exactly what you are doing!

Now, concerning TW's article....even though I may not agree with him on going to the Greek, which I DO NOT, I still rejoice in the truth that he teaches, which is much more than what you do.

Reveal yourself, or go away. Reveal yourself, and I WILL answer your post here, which would be an easy thing for me to do.

One more thing:

For one thing, RB, why are you quoting someone else's work as an authority on this present subject, when you have soundly (and correctly) stated on many occasions that scripture is your key foundation?

I DID NOT quote TW's article as an authority on the subject, but only gave another brother's understanding of which I totally agree with.

This or That?

Matthew 23:29,

29 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 and say, 'If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.'

31 "Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' guilt. 33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Do Jews kill and crucify in modern times?

Or is Jesus referring to His apostles and disciples during that 40 year period?  ( a generation according to Exodus)

: lea  Wed May 10, 2017 - 16:00:33This or That?

Matthew 23:29,

29 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 and say, 'If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.'

31 "Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' guilt. 33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.[/color][/color]

Do Jews kill and crucify in modern times?

Or is Jesus referring to His apostles and disciples during that 40 year period?  ( a generation according to Exodus)

Anyone can kill and crucify Christ afresh.

Hebrews 6:6~"If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

But, the point is truly a moot point~truly not an issue open to argument; an irrelevant question.

Nevertheless, the  scriptures you quoted proves our understanding of the phrase THIS generqtion as always used by Jesus. A couple of points before we consider Matthew 23 which is just before Matthew 24:34. The word of God defines words for us, not Webster, Oxford English dictionary, etc. God is his own interpreter of the words he has chosen to use to reveal hidden truths to us. We MUST follow his lead, period and trust him for light upon the subject we are considering. That being said, this does not mean we do not read such dictionaries to guide us with understanding the primary meaning of words we all use to communicate with each other, but God's word must be searched and pondered carefully considering how God chose to write his testimony to us concerning truth, before we will ever be able to come to the knowledge of the truth under consideration. Example: Jew in the scriptures could mean either a natural Jew of a spiritual Jew, which Webster would never consider. Bread in the scriptures could either mean the liquid substance we all eat, or it could be the word of God~you know scriptures, we do not need to quote them. The list is long, but you should get my point.

We all must agree that true Christians are a distinct race of men.

1st Peter 2:9~"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:"

They are of a peculiar descent or pedigree, different from the rest of the world. This is implied in their being called a generation.

There are three significations of the word generation in the Scriptures. Sometimes it means, as is its meaning in the common use, a class of persons among a people, or in the world, that are born together, or so nearly together, that the time of their being in the different stages of the age of man is the same. They shall be young persons, middle aged, and old together. Or they shall be together upon the stage of action. All that are together upon the face of the earth, or the stage of action, are very often accounted as one generation. Thus when God threatened that not one of the Israelites of that generation should see the good land, it is meant, all from twenty years old and upwards.

A second meaning is, those who are born of a common progenitor.

A third meaning of the word in Scripture is a certain race of mankind, whose generation and birth agree, NOT as to TIME, but as to descent and pedigree, or as to those persons from whom they originally proceeded. So it is to be understood,

"This is Matthew 1:1~"The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the son of Abraham;"

That is, this is the book that gives an account of his pedigree. And this meaning, viz. those who are of the same race and descent, must be given to the word in the text. The righteous are often spoken of in Scripture as being a distinct generation~

Psalam 14:5 "There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous."

Again~

Psalm 24:6~"This is the generation of them that seek him, that seek thy face, O Jacob."

The last for now:

Psalm 73:15~"If I say, I will speak thus: behold, I should offend against the generation of thy children."

This is the meaning of Matthew 23 and can easily be proven. Please listen carefully to Jesus' words and ponder them in light of WHOM he is speaking against. I will help with certain emphasis....

Matthew 23 reads....."Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor! Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty. Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift? Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein. And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.  Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."

So clear how Jesus Christ used the phrase THIS GENERATION referring to a generation of serpents from their father the old serpent. Jesus clearly said they those Pharisees and scribes slew the prophet Zacharias, yet themselves personally were not there, yet they were the SAME EVIL and wicked generation/family of men that DID.

Question for you: "How did John the Baptist use the word generation...TIME, as far as its common use, or, descent and pedigree...kind, etc.?" How did Solomon use it? How did David use it? Need help?

Matthew3:7, But having seen many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "Brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?
This was the Jews judgment in the Jewish/Roman war. 
You neglect John's and Jesus dialogue in their present tense.  If the wrath hasn't come yet, well,  who'd waste time believing that warning up to today?!! Illogical.

"In Matthew 24:34, Jesus declares, "[T]his generation shall not pass" until a series of events transpire–including the second coming. Did Jesus mean "this generation will not pass away" or "that generation shall not pass away," was Matthew 24 fulfilled in the first century?  Two first century Roman historians record a supernatural event that was seen in the sky at the start of the Jewish War with Rome, in A.D. 66, that appears to fulfill Biblical prophecy concerning the second coming.  Almost immediately thereafter, the Roman Historian Cassius Dio records a mass vision of a multitude of spiritual bodies coming out of the earth at the sound of a trumpet in what appears to be a literal resurrection of the dead that same year in fulfillment of Matthew 24:31.   These two events marked the start of the worst war Israel ever faced.  As a result of this war, the Roman army worshipped the beast and his image on the ensigns within the Temple and then destroyed it in A.D. 70 such that "not one stone [was] left on another" in fulfillment of Matthew 24:2 and Matthew 24:15.  Around this time, the saints, including the disciples, were martyred in Jerusalem and Rome; the sun and moon were darkened; many false messiahs and false prophets appeared; and there were earthquakes, famines, wars and rumors of wars.  Jesus was right.  "This [first century] generation [did] not pass until all" the predictions in this chapter literally occurred!  For a detailed explanation of the historical events that fulfill seemingly every detail of every prediction in this chapter see the following commentary on Matthew 24. " Revelation Revolution.

: lea  Thu May 11, 2017 - 13:24:25Matthew3:7, But having seen many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "Brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?

You have corrupted the wording by John the Baptist. Generation as used by John is not the same as the word "brood". Brood is a noun~but in Matthew 3:7 the noun would be vipers, and generation would be an adjective...in God's use of the word generation in so many scriptures that shall be forthcoming.

Main Difference ~ Noun vs Adjective........Nouns and adjective are two of the parts of speech. The main difference between noun and adjective is that noun identifies a person, place, object, or idea whereas an adjective modifies a noun. What is a Noun? A noun is a naming word. Nouns include people, objects, places, animals, qualities, and ideas. Nouns are the name of the things that are around us. Nouns also act as subjects and objects of sentences.

Adjectives are easy to identify in a sentence because they fall right before the nouns they modify.Example: generation of vipers!

: LeaThis was the Jews judgment in the Jewish/Roman war.

The context said that you are deceived.

Matthew 3:7-12~"But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

The burden of proof lays heavy upon your shoulders to prove your point. This you can never do. This baptism of fire is the lake of fire when God shall immerse all of the wicked into in THAT DAY where the evil generation of vipers shall PERISH. God shall burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. The same is taught elsewhere in the holy scriptures.

Matthew 13:30~"Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."

The exact same wording as John the Baptist said. Now, where is your proof?

: Lea"In Matthew 24:34, Jesus declares, "[T]his generation shall not pass" until a series of events transpire–including the second coming. Did Jesus mean "this generation will not pass away" or "that generation shall not pass away," was Matthew 24 fulfilled in the first century?  Two first century Roman historians record a supernatural event that was seen in the sky at the start of the Jewish War with Rome, in A.D. 66, that appears to fulfill Biblical prophecy concerning the second coming.  Almost immediately thereafter, the Roman Historian Cassius Dio records a mass vision of a multitude of spiritual bodies coming out of the earth at the sound of a trumpet in what appears to be a literal resurrection of the dead that same year in fulfillment of Matthew 24:31.   These two events marked the start of the worst war Israel ever faced.  As a result of this war, the Roman army worshipped the beast and his image on the ensigns within the Temple and then destroyed it in A.D. 70 such that "not one stone [was] left on another" in fulfillment of Matthew 24:2 and Matthew 24:15.  Around this time, the saints, including the disciples, were martyred in Jerusalem and Rome; the sun and moon were darkened; many false messiahs and false prophets appeared; and there were earthquakes, famines, wars and rumors of wars.  Jesus was right.  "This [first century] generation [did] not pass until all" the predictions in this chapter literally occurred!  For a detailed explanation of the historical events that fulfill seemingly every detail of every prediction in this chapter see the following commentary on Matthew 24. " Revelation Revolution.

In the morning, the Lord willing.   

You can keep the burden.  I enjoy mine lighter.

Jesus was speaking to his contemporary generation.

I'm going on to another topic.  This is fruitless.   ::headspin::

You can keep the burden.  I enjoy mine lighter.

Why waste anyone's time if you are not interested in defending what you think and want to believe as truth? So Jude 3 means nothing to you. Let me be clear with most all Preterist and Historical (who are a half-baked Preterist) concerning their corrupt perversion Eschatology~all of them corrupt so much of our NT scriptures and much of the old~and their doctrine WILL leave most of their followers unprepared for the evil days coming for the saints of God. The reason why you like your light burden would be because you do not believe there's a cross for God's children to carry. Your doctrine does not preach that!

Jesus was speaking to his contemporary generation.

You believing something and proving the same are worlds apart. IF you had the truth then God WOULD support you, but since you do not, he has sent you a strong delusion, by allowing you to believe a lie.

Jesus was speaking to his contemporary generation.

Taking that in the absolute sense, then why do you believe that ANY scriptures are for you personally? Oh, I see, you really do not believe that in an absolute sense ONLY when it serves your purpose. Peter and Paul both spoke of men/women like you.

2nd Corinthians 2:17~"For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ."

You ARE part of that many!

2nd Peter 3:16~"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

If you wrest and corrupt God holy scriptures, you will do so to your own destruction that will end in the lake of fire, which IS the second death, which I'm sure you do not believe that either.

I'm going on to another topic.  This is fruitless.

To another topic? You will do the same to all of the scriptures, for men like you were appointed unto the same.

Jude4~"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ."

This is fruitless.

It IS with God's children who have truth. You will run into the next fight to labor to find the weak and feeble-minded among us.

: RB  Thu May 11, 2017 - 15:58:56
Main Difference ~ Noun vs Adjective........Nouns and adjective are two of the parts of speech. The main difference between noun and adjective is that noun identifies a person, place, object, or idea whereas an adjective modifies a noun. What is a Noun? A noun is a naming word. Nouns include people, objects, places, animals, qualities, and ideas. Nouns are the name of the things that are around us. Nouns also act as subjects and objects of sentences.

Adjectives are easy to identify in a sentence because they fall right before the nouns they modify.Example: generation of vipers! 

Uh RB, there are no adjectives in that example.  "Generation" is a noun.  "Of" is a preposition. "Vipers" is a noun.

: 4WD  Fri May 12, 2017 - 05:51:10Uh RB, there are no adjectives in that example.  "Generation" is a noun.  "Of" is a preposition. "Vipers" is a noun.

My brother, I said:

in God's use of the word generation in so many scriptures that shall be forthcoming.

Another example may help:

Proverbs 30 12-14~There is a generation that curseth their father, and doth not bless their mother. There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness. There is a generation, O how lofty are their eyes! and their eyelids are lifted up. There is a generation, whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men. There is a generation that curseth their father, and doth not bless their mother.

Generation here means a kind of person, for it lacks demonstrative pronouns or other modifiers for a "period of time". If generation as used by Solomon is describing a type/kind of person then it is an adjective, not a noun, in God's use of his words. My brother, God uses words to hide truth from the wise...or those who think they are! He's the the ONLY wise God, and our Saviour~as Jude humbly and wisely said.

(Removed to prevent a double post)

I am directing the following points to anyone reading this who still cares to engage on this subject.  RB, if you would prefer not to continue an exchange without my handing out an ID card, I can certainly respect your decision, and I won't expect you to respond.

Some of the verses I am bringing up have already been touched on, but I would like to highlight some phrases within them that have not been addressed.  All the following passages combined help to define "This Generation" as the first-century generation living in Christ's time which would experience the fire of God's judgment back in those days.  "This Generation" was when the elements of the Old Covenant Age were "decaying, waxing old", and were "ready to vanish away" (Heb. 8:13), and when "the END OF ALL THINGS" was at hand ( I Peter 4:7).

In Luke 12, Christ was describing His coming return, with warnings for His servants to watch and be ready.  Then in Luke 12:49, He proceeded to tell His disciples, along with the multitude, that He was "come to send fire on the earth..." and also that He would send division on earth (Luke 12:51-53).  "For FROM HENCEFORTH (from that point in time onward) there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three..."  This tells us that division AS HE SPOKE was already beginning among those who were hearing Him. 

He then turned to the multitude in front of Him (Luke 12:54) and rebuked them for their hypocrisy in being able to read the signs of approaching weather conditions in the sky, but not being able to see the obvious conditions of impending judgment for their nation.  "Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern THIS TIME?"  In the clearest terms possible, "THIS TIME" was the season of history then occupied by those to whom Christ was speaking. 

Christ concluded His rebuke be giving a subtle warning that the judgment coming upon them by their "adversary" (Luke 12:58) could be forestalled if they gave due diligence to avoid it.  However, if they did not humble themselves, they would then be cast into prison (as the Jews actually were confined in the city of Jerusalem in the AD 70 era) where they would not be released until they had paid the very last mite of their debt.

What debt was it that this generation owed, and to whom?  As the commenter lea has brought out already, we need look no further than the context of the previous chapter, Luke 11:49-51.  "Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and APOSTLES" (which also limits the term of "this generation" to those who originally had the 12 apostles sent to them) "and some of them they shall slay and persecute:" (which that generation did do in the first century) "that the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world may be required of THIS GENERATION" (the generation being the ones who did the persecution and slaying of some of those first-century apostles and prophets).  This is not metaphoric killing and persecution - it's literal - as in the cases of Stephen, Paul, John the Baptist, James, etc.  Because THIS GENERATION of Jesus' time would shed the blood of the righteous ones sent to them, they would pay for this offense with their own life-blood being shed - a debt paid down to the last "mite" when their generation passed through the great tribulation of the AD 70 era.

Just how could the guilt of all the righteous ones slain from Abel's time onward have been placed upon that single generation in Christ's day?  Because all these slain righteous ones throughout history until then were children of faith, like faithful Abraham, and were considered by God to be IN CHRIST.  If this first-century generation was guilty of killing Christ their representative, (as Stephen and Peter both accused them in Acts 3:14-15, and 7:52), then by inclusion they were guilty in essence of the shed blood of everyone represented by Christ.  It would be the same if a modern-day nation killed the ambassador of another country while he or she was visiting that nation.  It would be the equivalent of an offense against that ambassador's entire country which their position represents.

Luke 13:25-28 is another indicator that it was the first-century generation of Israel that was cast out of the kingdom at the time of the judgment.  "When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us; and He shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say WE HAVE EATEN AND DRUNK IN THY PRESENCE AND THOU HAST TAUGHT IN OUR STREETS."  There is ONLY ONE GENERATION that could say these words as an actual fact, and that generation was the one which was contemporary with the incarnate Christ.  Of course, Christ would tell them to depart from Him, at which time they were to be thrust out of the kingdom.  With weeping and gnashing of teeth, they would finally realize that the prophets they and their fathers had participated in slaying were sitting down in the kingdom with the patriarchs (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) at the same time they themselves would be cast out.  The occasion when the master had "risen up and shut to the door" would be the AD 70 physical return of Christ and the second resurrection.

Matthew 23:29-36 is yet another text that helps to define "This Generation" as the one that was contemporary with Jesus' earthly ministry who would experience judgment.  This passage is Christ's diatribe against the Pharisees of His day, blasting them for their hypocrisy in building the tombs of the prophets and garnishing the sepulchers of the righteous, when their fathers had killed those same prophets.  He foretold that, like their fathers, they would actually end up killing crucifying, scourging and persecuting the prophets, wise men, and scribes He would send to them in the time to come.  These scribes and Pharisees standing in front of Him as He spoke were going to "FILL UP THE MEASURE" of their fathers. 

To "fill up a measure" is to completely take up the space within that measure.  This "measure" was originated by the "fathers" of these Pharisees in Israel's past history by their rejection and persecution of the prophets and messengers God had sent to their nation.  It had been slowly added to by the nation of Israel as they continued, by means of persecution or death, to get rid of almost all the prophets sent to them.  The generation Christ ministered to would be the ones to complete the process of filling up this measure to the brim in their day.  This is why "Mystery Babylon" (Jerusalem) in Revelation 17 was holding up a cup "full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication". A "full cup" is a "full measure".   

God's wrath against these unbelieving Jews for the persecution of His messengers was at the limit of His endurance in the days when I Thessalonians 2:14-16 was written.  "For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved; TO FILL UP THEIR SIN ALWAY: FOR THE WRATH IS COME UPON THEM TO THE UTTERMOST."  This measure of "filled up" offenses meant that God's wrath was prepared to come upon them at THAT TIME, which limits the punishment to that first-century generation.

Again, in Luke 23:28,  Christ also limited the time for this judgment to that of the women weeping for Him on the way to His crucifixion.  "...Weep not for me, but WEEP FOR YOURSELVES AND YOUR CHILDREN."  He did not intend this judgment to fall on every future descendant of those women He encountered - only their generation, which was composed of themselves and those to whom they had given birth.

Again, in Matthew 27:25, the crowd itself also called down this curse of judgment on their own generation at Christ's trial.  "His blood be on us and on our children" is not a continual, ongoing curse upon everyone who has since claimed a familial relationship to Judaism up until today.  The blood guilt for Christ's crucifixion came primarily upon that first-century generation of Christ-rejecting Jews.

Their complete rejection of Him had been predicted by Christ Himself earlier in Luke 17:24-25.  "For as the lightening, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in His day.  But first must He suffer many things and be rejected of THIS GENERATION."  The term "this generation" is quite specific in this verse.  The generation that rejected Christ was the SAME generation that caused Him to "suffer many things".

It's just as John 1:11 presented it: "He came unto HIS OWN, and HIS OWN received Him not."  That means "this generation" was defined as Christ's own people of that first-century generation who rejected Him, slew Him, and called down vengeance on their own heads and that of their sons and daughters for doing so.

"This Generation" was characterized by even more detail in Matthew 16:4 as "a wicked and ADULTEROUS generation" which sought for a sign to be given to it.  That first-century wicked and adulterous generation was the one which was given the single sign of the prophet Jonah (the 3 days / 3 nights sign).  Consequently, the definition of "this generation" is narrowed down in time to the one which personally saw the 3 days / 3 nights sign fulfilled by Christ in their presence. 

All these passages above have the concept of a particular time period attached to them.  Not one of them is limited to the meaning of a type or kind of person in the context that surrounds them.  Although I have used the KJV exclusively in the comments above, it is indeed regrettable that the KJV almost universally applied the generic term "generation" to each of the various Greek terms which have distinct differences between them.  By using the generic term that conceals these differences, the KJV has caused some real confusion on this subject.

  "This generation" applied to the Jews to whom Jesus prophesied "days of vengeance" upon, as He held that generation of Jews responsible for ALL the murders of righteous people, from Abel til then. And those days of vengeance came in 66-70 AD. This was NOT "the apocalypse", of course.

  And punishment of the Jews for rejecting Jesus began in 135-136 AD when Hadrian expelled them from their land, scattering them all over the continent. For over 1800 years, the Jews were hated & persecuted wherever they went, not being welcome anywhere. Over the years, countless jews died as a result of this persecution, but GOD preserved them as a people. This punishment culminated in the nazi holocaust. After that, he began to lift their punishment despire their continued rejection of Jesus, according to His promise to restore both them & Israel.

  And He hasn't completely restored the Jews yet, nor has he started restoring the rest of Israel yet, but it's guaranteed He will !  God first told this to Ezekiel; his vision of the dry bones represented the WHOLE HOUSE OF ISRAEL, as God said.

  Remember, God told Jeremiah that he would continue to  make RULERS(plural) of david's posterity over at least some Israelis until Jesus came to take over David's throne permanently. At that time, God was about to remove Zedekiah as king of Judah, & He'd already DQ'd Coniah or any of his posterity from David's throne. God was re-iterating the promise He'd made to David that his dynasty would continue unbroken til Jesus came to fill it forever, for those who thought David's dynasty would end with Zedekiah.

  WHOA! I'm digressing from the subject here ! "This generation" did NOT mean the generation alive when Jesus was here, in reference to eschatology. That's quite-obvious from the fact those events haven't yet occurred.

Hi robycop3,

Appreciate you making an effort to stay on topic.  I am equally guilty of this on occasion, but I shall make a better effort as well for the sake of anybody reading.

I notice that you have a predisposition to continue a racial segregation of Jew versus non-Jew, even after Christ "broke down the middle wall of separation between us" with the New Covenant in His blood.  That generation of first-century Jews was the LAST one where God demanded vengeance on those Jews for killing His Son, and by extension, every former OT martyr that was "IN HIM".  That ultimate crime of crucifying Christ the Son of God had vengeance for that crime exacted upon the perpetrators.  It was not brought up as a charge against any succeeding generations after that period of vengeance was poured out on the appropriate generation that had committed the offense.

In the Old Testament, as you undoubtedly know, each tribe kept a careful account of their genealogical lineage, ESPECIALLY if one was of the tribe of Levi.  If an UNBROKEN LINE of descent could not be produced for the tribe of Levi, that person was disqualified forever from the office of the priesthood.  The main purpose in God's mind for preserving the tribal lineage intact was so that Christ could fulfill the exact terms of prophecy for His appearing on the scene.  And He did, of course. 

AFTER Christ fulfilled these specific tribal lineage terms to the letter, and became the ruler from the tribe of Judah sitting on His mercy-seat throne in heaven forever as our high priest advocate, there was no need to keep tabs on those "endless genealogies" that Paul said the New Covenant saints were NOT TO GIVE HEED TO anymore. 

All the records of financial debt along with the genealogical records of the tribes were burned up BY THE JEWS THEMSELVES, even BEFORE the Romans put the final torch to the entire Temple in AD 70.  This was in fulfillment of Malachi 4:1 when God would burn up the stubble in the "great and dreadful day of the Lord", with the intended purpose that He would not leave them either a "root" (ancestral tribal records of their FATHERS) or a "branch", meaning any genealogical tribal  records of OFFSPRING.  The genetic line of tribal records was burned up long ago, by God's design.  They had served their purpose for Christ, and were needed no more.

The examples you mention of Hadrian up to modern-day records of oppression of those who follow Judaism are no more and no less significant than any genocide of any people group - and lamentably, there have been far too many examples across the world's populations over the centuries.

The scriptural examples I gave just above pinpoint EXACTLY which generation that God's vengeance fell upon, and it was that generation that Jesus walked among during His earthly ministry.

  There's little question that today's Jews are descended from the Jews of Roman times, even if the old genealogies are now gone. And GOD promised that the Jews & the rest of Israel would be restored. He first mentioned this to Ezekiel in the vision of the bones, calling them "the WHOLE Houst of Israel".

  No other existing people has the history of the Jews. It was only by God's power that they weren't destroyed as a people. No other people has undergone some 1800 years of hatred & persecution, but yet remained a distinct people.

  And anyone who denies that modern Israel is not the beginning of God's promised restoration is denying the truth of Scripture. And the fact that Jerusalem is their capital again is not without significance, nor is the fact that the Jews again have a sovereign nation in the land God promised them. THESE ARE NOT "BY CHANCE" EVENTS !

  S'more prophetic significance-Isaiah 19: 17 And the land of Judah will be a terror to Egypt; everyone who makes mention of it will be afraid in himself, because of the counsel of the Lord of hosts which He has determined against it.

  Now, it's no secret that the 80 million Egyptians quake in their fezzes whenever a Jew rattles his Uzi. They've had their cans kicked 3 times by the Jews, & they don't want #4! Now, it seems that prophecy is fulfilled, as Egypt & Israel have begun trading, & Egypt just signed a huge contract to buy natural gas from Israel.

   The assertion that today's Jews aren't actually Jews, descended from Judah, Benjamin, or Levi, is just utterly ignorant & anti-Semitic. it was invented by Jew-haters who wish to try to discredit them.

No need to argue over what our Lord meant by the word "generation" in Matthew 24:34. It's very plain within the CONTEXT of that Scripture that He was speaking of the last generation, the one that will actually see His 2nd coming, which is still future to us.

Matt 24:32-37
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away.

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My Father only.

37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
KJV

He tied "This generation" to "all these things be fulfilled". The last sign He gave of course was that of His 2nd coming and gathering of the saints. So it's a major fallacy to try and take the word generation out of that context and try to apply some idea that's outside the context of that Scripture.

And in the next Matt.24:35 verse the context continues with Heaven and earth passing away, which is an obvious pointer to the end of this present world, an event that is still in our near future. Afterall, His disciples did at the first ask Him what would be the sign of His coming and of the end of this world, and that's proof that our Lord understood their question was literally about the end of this present world with the day of His 2nd coming.

And He even tells us no man knows that day or hour when that will happen, but The Father only knows. Even that is solid proof of what generation He was talking about, because that clearly did not happen back in the Apostle's days, no matter how much a Preterist wants it to be so.

Thus following the actual context given in the Scripture makes arguments over the word 'generation' useless.

Your logic fails.  Do you realize how much you twist Jesus' words? He said "this generation" He didn't say "that" generation!
Jesus speaking about Jerusalem in Matt.23,
Woes to Scribes and Pharisees
...35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36Truly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation. 37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling!...

Get off the "generation" word twist and realize what Jesus said!

: lea  Tue Feb 25, 2020 - 18:47:43
Your logic fails.  Do you realize how much you twist Jesus' words? He said "this generation" He didn't say "that" generation!

You show inability to understand that you cannot separate the "this generation" phrase from the CONTEXT of what it is given with. You cannot do that, but that is how Preterists try to drive a wedge into that Scripture and isolate the word generation, and then try to apply a different meaning to it. So the actual twisting of Scripture is of the doctrine you are on. I explained simply per the Matt.24:32-37 context. You bypass that.

And oh please, let's not go back to Matt.23 with what He said to the Jews, because that's not who He was speaking of.


Matt 24:32-36
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Who is He talking to there? The Jews of Matt.23? NO! of course not. He is speaking to His disciples on the Mount of Olives who asked Him about the signs of His coming and the end of the world.

When WHO "shall see all these things"? When His servants see them. Did His disciples of that time see Jesus' 2nd coming? NO! of course not, for they are already dead and Jesus has not returned yet today. How in the world does one loose common sense to not be able to understand this, it's so simple!

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

OK, the previous verses established who He was talking to, i.e., those who will see ALL THESE THINGS. What things? It's simple, the SIGNS of the end He gave in the previous verses. Those are the things He was talking to them about.

Thus the SIGNS He gave are "all these things" that MUST be fufilled for the particular generation THAT WILL SEE THEM. That also is very simple to understand. Christ's disciples did NOT see all those SIGNS in their generation, period. And they certainly did not see Christ's 2nd coming because it hasn't yet happened.

35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My Father only.
KJV

And just to make sure we know what generation He is talking about, He let's us know He's talking about the day of His 2nd coming with the end of this present world.

  It SHOULD be obvious from history and reality that "these things" have NOT yet occurred. Jesus was not speaking symbolically when He gave those prophecies to His disciples. While He didn't speak of the "beast", He plainly said He will return immediately after the great trib, and IN GREAT POWER & GLORY. and He specifically warned the disciples (and us) to not believe anyone who says He came in secret.

  Proof?

  The world is going right on as it did in 65 AD, 70 AD, & 75 AD. When Jesus returns, He is gonna rule the world. There won't be anyone who won't know who He is.  Obviously, that hasn't yet happened !

: robycop3  Wed Feb 26, 2020 - 01:03:43
  It SHOULD be obvious from history and reality that "these things" have NOT yet occurred. Jesus was not speaking symbolically when He gave those prophecies to His disciples. While He didn't speak of the "beast", He plainly said He will return immediately after the great trib, and IN GREAT POWER & GLORY. and He specifically warned the disciples (and us) to not believe anyone who says He came in secret.

  Proof?

  The world is going right on as it did in 65 AD, 70 AD, & 75 AD. When Jesus returns, He is gonna rule the world. There won't be anyone who won't know who He is.  Obviously, that hasn't yet happened !

Right, but there is actually more Scripture proof that He meant those signs in His Olivet discourse for the end of this present world, and not 70 A.D. The way we know that is by parallel study of His Olivet discourse with the Seals of Revelation 6 given to His Church. His Book of Revelation was given through His servant John around the year 96 A.D. during the reign of the Roman emperor Domitian. So the fact that our Lord Jesus linked the signs to His Revelation shows even more that they were meant for the generation that would see His 2nd coming. And the 7 signs in Matthew 24 flow in the same order of the Seals of Revelation 6.

Another link in Matt.24 to Revelation is about the Matt.24:23-26 Scripture, which is about the coming of a singular false Messiah that's to work great signs and wonders on earth to deceive. We're given a repeat warning of that with the "another beast" in Revelation 13, and Apostle Paul also gave a warning about that coming event in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, and also in 2 Corinthians 11 about the "another Jesus".

So really there's ample Scripture evidence for the coming future Antichrist playing God in Jerusalem in the future, working miracles on earth to deceive the whole world with.

: dpr  Tue Feb 25, 2020 - 14:59:05No need to argue over what our Lord meant by the word "generation" in Matthew 24:34. It's very plain within the CONTEXT of that Scripture that He was speaking of the last generation, the one that will actually see His 2nd coming, which is still future to us...............................................................He tied "This generation" to "all these things be fulfilled". The last sign He gave of course was that of His 2nd coming and gathering of the saints. So it's a major fallacy to try and take the word generation out of that context and try to apply some idea that's outside the context of that Scripture.

(Red highlight are mine for discussion)The only truth you said in this post is:

: dpr Reply #97 on: Yesterday at 14:59:05 Thus following the actual context given in the Scripture makes arguments over the word 'generation' useless.

I firmly believe that context IS KING and that the context will drive the interpretation for us if we just submit to the word of God as God's testimony to us concerning the TRUTH we are seeking. Your problem is that you are NOT properly following the context~the KEY of understanding Matthew 24:34 will be found in the beginning of the discourse from verses 5 down to verse 25! Jesus will CLEARLY reveal to us the very generation that shall not pass till ALL be fulfilled including his second coming and the end of the world as we know it.

THIS GENERATION are the generation of evil and wicked men the very generation that he was warning us of (Matthew 24:5-25) that shall come in great multitudes during the GREAT tribulation~the time of Jacob's trouble, or the very elect.

I would like to discuss this very subject with you one on one in a new thread since this one was started a few years back.

No, I made it very plain which generation Jesus was speaking about, and it certainly was not the Jews back in Matthew 23!

The 7 Signs of the end He gave in Matthew 24 are for the very end of this present world and specifically to the last generation, which is the generation that will see "all these things". The last Sign He gave was that of His 2nd coming and gathering of His Church. Preterists simply do not know what prophetic time we are in.

: dpr  Wed Feb 26, 2020 - 10:48:03 Preterists simply do not know what prophetic time we are in.

Agreed~but, sir, you too are confused I'm conviced. AGAIN~THIS generation in verse 34 of Matthew 24 is the KEY that will unlock the truths on many scriptures that deals with END TIME EVENTS. Let us discuss this topic in depth. I'm willing if you and others are.

The major eschatology schools are:

Premillennialism which has a few different doctrines among them yet can still be said to be Premillennial ~which I'm NOT.

Amillennalism~of which you have three schools of teachings: Pertertism; historical~(half bake Preterists); and Idealism WHICH I AM.

Preterism: Many prophecies have already occurred in the past; This view denotes a 1st-century fulfillment concerning the literary text; real events have already transpired. Some events may be symbolic of other fulfillments, thus taking a symbolic interpretation of the text.

Partial preterism: Most prophecies of Revelation were fulfilled in the 1st century. The "thousand years" generally spans from the 1st century up to the second coming and last judgment, thus often applying an allegorical interpretation.

Full preterism: All prophecies of Revelation have been fulfilled in the 1st century, including the second coming and the last judgment, with many Full preterists already applying an "Eternal State" to this present time.

Futurism: Many prophecies will be fulfilled in the future, and in some cases might have an imminent fulfillment concerning the literal text; They believe in real physical events; Biblical literalism is emphasized.

Historicism: Interprets the text as currently being fulfilled during the span of Christian history. Text is sometimes taken as symbolic of real events, rather than being literally true.

Idealism: Present continual fulfillment of symbolical or literary text; spiritual events; Allegorical interpretation is emphasized. ~ Christian eschatological views - Wikipedia a very short version of these schools of teachings.


 

Wow, when will some of you ever get to understand Biblical prophecy?! You seem to not be able to settle in your minds the truth behind "this generation." I am only semi-educated (a 2yr. college degree) and I can figure it out perfectly. So can other full preterists! Don't mean to be so condescending, but it is true.

How can someones be so saved and so ignorant of the meanings in Scripture?!@!
The Scribes and Pharisees Ask for a Sign

38 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from You."

39 But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41 The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here. 42 The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here.
An Unclean Spirit Returns

43 "When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none. 44 Then he says, 'I will return to my house from which I came.' And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order. 45 Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation."

The "this generation " is a no-brainer if one has a head on their shoulders. Stop being so blind.

: lea  Wed Feb 26, 2020 - 15:34:27Wow, when will some of you ever get to understand Biblical prophecy?! You seem to not be able to settle in your minds the truth behind "this generation." I am only semi-educated (a 2yr. college degree) and I can figure it out perfectly. So can other full preterists! Don't mean to be so condescending, but it is true.

You have me beat~I have no education, and besides it took me two years to get out of "sandbox"! Truth does not come through worldly education but by the Spirit of the Living God! The apostles were living proof of that and so was Christ! Neither were trained/taught by the wisdom of this world.

IF you think you know the meaning of the phrase "THIS generation"~then PROVE IT with the scriptures. So far you have not, not even close. RB

Side note: Even in your post you quoted scriptures (and there are many of them) which tells us the meaning of THIS generation:

: JESUS CHRIST39 But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41 The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here. 42 The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here. "When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none. 44 Then he says, 'I will return to my house from which I came.' And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order. 45 Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation."

THIS generation is defined by the Holy Ghost as EVIL and wicked~just as it is ALL THROUGH THE SCRIPTURES and it is NOT limited to Jesus' generation, even though they were there JUST like they are in EVERY generation of the living. God's word defines its OWN WORDS for us, NOT Webster, etc. You folks try in VAIN to limit THIS generation to Jesus' generation and it DOES NOT Fit but is FORCED into the scriptures.

Consider this one point with me~Jesus' generation had the MOST RIGHTEOUS people that ever walked this earth in it, and that within itself proves your false doctrine. Who lived in Jesus' generation? I'll come back and give you a list of the most righteous men and women that ever lived at one time in a present generation in the land of the living~the list is LONG!  Later RB

The passage was from Matt.12, I forgot to note the book.

It's not what I mean by "this generation" but what Jesus meant.

Notice how He says "The Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
Friend in no other time in history and the Bible did Jesus die on the Cross and arise on the 3rd day! So you see, the Lord is addressing his contemporaries-    "this wicked generation."

Hey lea,

Yep, it's so obvious that "THIS generation" was the exact one that had the 3-day-3-night sign given to it originally.  A sign that was rejected by the majority, especially the Jewish leadership.  Most people miss the significance of Jonah and Solomon that are both brought up as inferior examples compared to Christ's witness to His own generation.   These examples help pin down who "THIS generation" actually referred to.

The men of Ninevah and the Queen of Sheba both recognized the truth and wisdom brought by those lesser examples of Jonah and Solomon, and gave a righteous response to them.  Arguing from the lesser to the greater, (because Christ was the infinitely superior truth-speaker compared to Jonah and Solomon), that first-century wicked generation deserved to be condemned by the men of Ninevah and the Queen of Sheba.  By that generation's rejection of the resurrected Christ's superior witness, they earned the ultimate judgment of the "days of vengeance". 

No other nation was so favored as to have the personal ministry of Jesus Christ walking their streets and teaching them eye-to-eye.  To whom much was given, much was required for their orchestrating the murder of the Son of God. 

No other generation since then has been guilty of this same ultimate crime.  They "FILLED UP the measure of their fathers" completely, and "wrath came upon them to the uttermost." 

Once the "days of vengeance" were exacted upon that wicked generation who had murdered His Son, God didn't continue to demand the same wholesale vengeance on EVERY generation subsequent to that one.  That would have been an injustice.  We are condemned on a person-by-person basis if we reject the Son of God as our Savior, but this has nothing to do with the "days of vengeance" passed upon that first-century "wicked and adulterous generation".  Adulterous, because they had not remained truly faithful to God's covenant with them, but had depended on Rome's favors to maintain their place and their nation, as the high priest Caiaphas clearly admitted.

The example of the seven-fold increase of demonic possession was also going to be limited to the "last state" of that first-century wicked generation.  Their "last state" would be worse than their "first" state; a time when Jesus and His disciples had first cast out devils in just about every city in Israel, as testified by the seventy He sent out.  This set of verses confined the condition of those varying levels of wickedness to a SINGLE wicked generation, from its FIRST state to its LAST state in AD 70, before that generation of parents and their children had passed away.

It was indeed Jesus' contemporaries that were thus judged, you've hit it exactly, lea.

: RB  Wed Feb 26, 2020 - 04:23:38
(Red highlight are mine for discussion)The only truth you said in this post is:I firmly believe that context IS KING and that the context will drive the interpretation for us if we just submit to the word of God as God's testimony to us concerning the TRUTH we are seeking. Your problem is that you are NOT properly following the context~the KEY of understanding Matthew 24:34 will be found in the beginning of the discourse from verses 5 down to verse 25! Jesus will CLEARLY reveal to us the very generation that shall not pass till ALL be fulfilled including his second coming and the end of the world as we know it.

But I am... following the Scripture context of Matthew 24. Your PROBLEM is that you are following a doctrine of men instead of the Scripture context.

You are allowing men's theories to sway your ability to simply understand the context that is written there in simplicity. The parameters Jesus gave with that idea of "This generation" involves the 'things' He was showing His disciples, and the final 'thing' He showed them was the day of His return and literal END of this present world. That's the context of where He used the word "generation". Thus He was using generation in the time sense, and not about the wicked Pharisees, etc.

THIS GENERATION are the generation of evil and wicked men the very generation that he was warning us of (Matthew 24:5-25) that shall come in great multitudes during the GREAT tribulation~the time of Jacob's trouble, or the very elect.

I would like to discuss this very subject with you one on one in a new thread since this one was started a few years back.

You can discuss it all you want with yourself, because I won't budge on what my Lord Jesus declared there in Matthew 24. If I denied it as written it would mean denying many other Bible Scriptures that parallel with it, like the Revelation 6 Chapter for one instance.

And what is this thing of suggesting to make a new thread discussion? It won't change what my Lord Jesus declared there in His Olivet discourse, no matter how much you throw men's doctrines at it. I've already covered the 7 Signs of the end Jesus gave on this forum, and in parallel to the Seals of Revelation. No one has commented on that, so why would I want to start a new discussion and thread on this topic? They won't consider my explanation there either.

: lea  Wed Feb 26, 2020 - 18:24:46
The passage was from Matt.12, I forgot to note the book.

It's not what I mean by "this generation" but what Jesus meant.

Notice how He says "The Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
Friend in no other time in history and the Bible did Jesus die on the Cross and arise on the 3rd day! So you see, the Lord is addressing his contemporaries-    "this wicked generation."

And that's still... not how Jesus used the 'generation' idea in Matthew 24:34. He wasn't speaking of the wicked Jews in Matthew 24, He was pointing to the generation that will see those signs Jesus forewarned of in the Matthew 24 chapter.

: dpr  Thu Feb 27, 2020 - 09:49:42
And that's still... not how Jesus used the 'generation' idea in Matthew 24:34. He wasn't speaking of the wicked Jews in Matthew 24, He was pointing to the generation that will see those signs Jesus forewarned of in the Matthew 24 chapter.

Jesus forewarned his apostles and disciples about the signs to look for.  Do you believe they heeded his warnings during that generation?

    While the temple and Jerusalem were destroyed while some of that generation were still here, the actual eschatological events did NOT then occur. There was NO beast with a false prophet as his sidekick, NO "abomination of desolation", NO great trib, and certainly NO physical return of Jesus, seen by all.

  Daniel, Paul, and Jesus' messenger in Revelation all spoke of the beast.  Jesus Himself spoke of the AOD, which will be the antichrist's setting up his statue in the temple in Jerusalem, and declaring himself to be God. Jesus Himself prophesied the great trib, which will be worldwide. And Jesus said He'd return in great power & glory immediately after that trib.

  These events simply have NOT yet happened! No amounta pret Scripture-twisting & re-defining can erase that FACT. Preterism was, and still is, false !

: lea  Mon Mar 02, 2020 - 14:47:54 Do you believe they heeded his warnings during that generation?

The answer to your question is YES concerning false prophets~nevertheless, Jesus was speaking of a TIME when this world (not just in the middle east) will be overflooded with both false prophets and false doctrines. Your lying system desires and works very hard to limit Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; 2nd Thessalonians 2; and Revelation to 70 A.D. But it is very clear even from within what is known as the Olivet Discourse~ that you are teaching a doctrine that the today's false prophets need you to teach in order to conceal their identities....you are either showing that you are among them, or at least helping to protect them.....You decide!

: JESUS CHRISTLuke 21:32-36~"Verily I say unto you, This generation (SEAPKING OF TYPE NOT TIME~ which Jesus just spent teaching warning of EVIL and WICKED men....RB) shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, (THERE'S YOUR ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION~RB) lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

Hi RB,

Jesus was NOT speaking of a time in the distant future for apostasy in the church to break out in record numbers.  That idea flat-out contradicts His prophesied "INCREASE" of the kingdom of God among men throughout the generations to come, as represented by the leaven, the mustard seed, Daniel's growing rock that struck the image, etc.

Jesus' predictions of a particular period of rampant apostasy involving false doctrine in the church were ALREADY being fulfilled by the time the little book of Jude was being written.  These "wandering stars" and "spots in your feasts of charity" that were feasting in company with those first-century believers were "before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God unto lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ."  This period during the first-century's "latter days" of apostasy had been foretold long before by Moses and the prophets.

Paul also taught that MANY had already been working to corrupt the word of God back then.  Written around AD 57, Paul said in I Cor. 2:17, "For we are not as *MANY* WHICH CORRUPT THE WORD OF GOD..."  Apostasy and twisting God's words was being done on many levels by many in the first century. 

Paul also reluctantly admitted to Timothy around the year AD 66/67 that, even after his prior, complete evangelistic coverage of Asia, "This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me...." (II Timothy 1:15). 

This was MASSIVE DEFECTION or apostasy in the ranks of the church that Paul spoke of in this text.  Evil men and seducers had indeed in those first-century days already begun to wax into a "worse and worse" condition, by deceiving others and being deceived themselves.  That's because the devil had already been loosed for a "SHORT TIME" and "LITTLE SEASON" back then, to again deceive the nations on an unprecedented and never-to-be-surpassed scale (as Rev. 12:12 compared to Rev. 20:3&7-8 proves was already going on back then).

This period of a flood of false doctrine and demonic oppression combined with physical trials and persecution in the church were features of history just before and during the Great Tribulation period of AD 66-70.  This combination of conditions will never be duplicated in that manner again, as promised by Jesus Himself in Matt. 24:21.

RB, your doom-and gloom projections of a faltering and failing presence of the kingdom of God in this world (which you think will continue to sink until the end of human history) are not only depressing to read, they are a flat-out denial of Christ's triumphant predictions of the progress of the Spirit's work among the nations of men that would "INCREASE" over time, after the close of that Great Tribulation era of the first century (immediately followed by His AD 70 physical return). 

As to this post's original theme, "This generation" is NOT speaking of a supposed "type" of people.  Perhaps you don't realize it, RB, but you are marching in lockstep with C.I. Scofield's interpretation of "generation" when you say that.  In his Bible notes, Scofield deliberately and deceitfully SWITCHED the Greek definitions of "genea" and "genos" so that he could claim that Jesus was only speaking of the "race" of Jews that would supposedly be alive in our future when the fulfillment of these Matthew 24 signs would take place. 

A "genea" generation is defined as a group of contemporaries living at a particular TIME.  It's not a "type" or "race" of people as you and Scofield suppose.  That idea would be represented by the word "genos" instead, as Scofield was well aware before he deceptively switched these definitions in his Bible notes.

You are indeed crippled when you refuse to look at the differences in the Greek terms that the KJV translators lumped together into the one generic word "generation".   

Do you really think it is a "type" of people under discussion in Matthew 1:17?  Is that 14 "types" of people from Abraham to David, etc., or is it speaking of the passage of TIME represented by 14 consecutive series of contemporary families, each living at a particular TIME?

When God said in Ps. 95:10 that "FORTY YEARS LONG was I grieved with that GENERATION", He was not speaking of a "type".  He was speaking of a (genea) generation that had lasted FORTY YEARS of TIME.  The fathers and their children made up that single generation in the wilderness, exactly the same as the weeping women and their children on Christ's way to the cross would make up the contemporary (genea) generation in Christ's days that would see the Matthew 24 signs come to pass.

And please don't try to use the (gennemata) "generation of vipers" text as an example of a "type".  This "gennemata" term means "offspring" of vipers, which was a particular insult harking back to the serpents that plagued the children of Israel in the wilderness.  Totally different term from "genea", or "genos".

  The great trib was NOT in 66-70 AD. That's silly. No great plagues struck the earth then. Also, Jesus said He'd return IMMEDIATELY AFTER the great trib. Obviously, He hasn't yet returned.

  Try doing a REALITY CHECK !

: 3 Resurrections  Thu Mar 05, 2020 - 09:29:05Hi RB,

Jesus was NOT speaking of a time in the distant future for apostasy in the church to break out in record numbers.  That idea flat-out contradicts His prophesied "INCREASE" of the kingdom of God among men throughout the generations to come, as represented by the leaven, the mustard seed, Daniel's growing rock that struck the image, etc.

I'll answer your post with the word of God later. I'm only marking it now so I will not forget to answer your post. I am just as convinced as you are that your doctrine is against the word of God and I shall easily prove that C.I. Scofield and my understanding are worlds apart not as you desire for others to believe that we are in agreement. Later as time permits.  But I will add that they (Premill School) do not twist and pervert scriptures as much as Hyper Preterism and half baked Preterism do to support their doctrine.  Later.....RB

Hi robycop3,

Of course, OBVIOUSLY Jesus has not yet returned TO STAY physically on this planet yet.  But He has already returned physically and bodily to RAPTURE the resurrected saints and to "receive them unto Himself" by taking them back with Him to the Father in heaven, as He promised to that first-century generation.

You needn't worry.  He will be back to resurrect you yourself as well in the future at the final third resurrection.  Not a single hair of a single saint gets left behind to perish in the dust of the grave.

There are 5 WORDS that absolutely prove this lengthy span of time AFTER the Great Tribulation which was IMMEDIATELY followed by the rapture of the resurrected saints at Christ's second coming return.  Matt. 24:21, "...For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, NO, NOR EVER *SHALL BE*"  (nor ever shall be in the FUTURE, AFTER that Great Tribulation, that can ever compare to the severity of that former period of time).

Robycop3, just what explanation do you have for this extended period of time AFTER the Great Tribulation?  If the return of Christ to gather His resurrected saints IMMEDIATELY follows that Great Tribulation, then that extended period of human history with other periods of regular tribulation for the saints comes AFTER that second coming of Christ. 

This is the part of the timeline that you and I are sitting in; waiting for a yet future THIRD COMING of Christ to bodily resurrect us.  The growing church since AD 70 has experienced regular and periodic periods of tribulation and persecution, but none like the one in the AD 66-70 era, since the entire demonic realm was unleashed in full fury for a "SHORT TIME" on THAT GENERATION by being imprisoned in the city of Jerusalem.  This was just as Jesus foretold for the "LAST STATE" of that wicked first-century generation (Matt. 12:43-45).

Since the demonic realm was entirely destroyed at Christ's AD 70 coming (the Devil and his angels turned to ashes, and every unclean spirit that "passed out of the land - Zech. 13:2), the part they played to make that the Greatest Tribulation period ever to occur (either before then or at any time in the future) can no longer be replicated in any period of church tribulation subsequent to that time.

  No, the great trib has NOT yet occurred. It'll be worldwide when it does occur. Remember, Jerusalem was soon rebuilt after its AD70 destruction.

  And, of course, the rapture hasn't yet occurred, either. There were many saints who'd been saved before 70 AD who went right on with their work afterwards. John, the longest-living apostle, was not raptured.

  And, of course, the 'beast' hasn't yet come, either. Scripture plainly says he will be in power when Jesus returns, & will send his army to attack Jesus, but Jesus will destroy it by His spoken word. And the beast & his sidekick, the false prophet, will be cast alive into the lake of fire, not passing "Go" or collecting $200.

  As for "nor shall ever be", remember, there'll be the millenium of Jesus' rule on the earth while Satan is imprisoned, & then, the brief period of insurrection after Satan is released. So, there'll be plenty of time left after the trib.

  And no, the demonic realm is still very-much around, as proven by the prevalence of sin all over the world.

  Your whole scenario is one big cartoon.

Hi robycop3,

So, you think that there is no scripture proof of a WORLDWIDE Great Tribulation in the AD 66-70 time period? 

Here are the verses that prove it:

Rev. 3:10-11  - "Because thou didst keep the word of my endurance, I also thee will keep out of the hour of trial which is ABOUT TO COME UPON THE *WHOLE HABITABLE WORLD*, to try them that dwell upon the earth.  Behold I come quickly: hold fast what thou hast, that no one take thy crown."  The entire habitable world (oikoumenen holes) was soon to experience this WORLDWIDE trial in JOHN'S DAYS.  These prophesied  days of trial John said were "AT HAND" according to Rev. 1:3 and 22:10  (a term defined by God in Ezekiel 12:21-28 as NOT being "prolonged" into "times that are far off", such as our future).

Acts 17:30-31  -  "The indeed therefore times of ignorance God having overlooked, NOW charges ALL MEN *EVERYWHERE* to repent, because he set a day in which he is ABOUT TO JUDGE THE HABITABLE WORLD (oikoumenen) in righteousness, by a man whom he appointed; proof having given to all in having raised him from among the dead."

Paul's warning was given to those Athenians on Mars Hill around AD 54 - not in a Jewish synagogue.  Even the pagan nations would share in this soon-coming judgment of the habitable world by Christ.

You are also still ignoring the famine in Acts 11:28 that Agabus prophesied was "about to be over the WHOLE HABITABLE WORLD" (holes tes oikoumenen) in the reign of Claudius (AD 41-54).  This worldwide famine was the fulfillment of the famines Christ predicted in Matt. 24:7 that would be part of "the beginning of sorrows", just before the Great Tribulation.

You are also confused as to just who participated in the AD 70 rapture.  No ordinary living saints were translated and caught up to heaven at that time.  I Thess. 4 makes no such artificial promise of a translation of a living saint.  You had to have been DEAD at one time to have participated in the rapture.  This was RESURRECTED "living" saints who had "remained" on earth (like the Matt. 27:52-53 resurrected saints) that were caught up in the clouds in the AD 70 rapture.  No one gets to skip the one-time death process. "...it is appointed unto men ONCE TO DIE, but after this the judgment...." (Heb. 9:27).

You also mistakenly think the literal millennium has not already come and gone.  John proves this in Rev. 12:12 compared with Rev. 20:3.  Satan was going to be "loosed" for a "little season" AFTER the literal millennium period had expired.  John declares quite plainly in Rev. 12:12 that Satan's "short time" was THEN IN PROGRESS.  How could the literal millennium be in our future if Satan's loosing for a "short time" / "little season" had ALREADY BEGUN as John was writing?  If Satan was already loosed back then, that means the literal 1,000-year millennium period had ALREADY EXPIRED at that point in John's days.  This isn't rocket science.

And if John said that Satan only had this "short time" / "little season" to deceive the nations as he was writing, that didn't leave Satan very long to exist after John had laid down his quill.  You are trying to stretch a "short time" / "little season" into a 2,000 year and counting period of time.  No logic whatever in that, especially since scripture already defined a "LONG season" as lasting only 40 years (Joshua 24:7).

You are also clearly ignoring the evil present in the hearts of men that originates all manner of wickedness.  Human evil today without the presence of the demonic realm needs no instigation from Satan or his angels to perform or think wicked things.  Jesus made that very clear in Matt. 15:18-20, as well as James duplicating the same idea in James 1:13-14.  It's our own lust and our own heart which originates evil things.

To go back to addressing the main point of this post - defining "THIS generation" - Jesus does that very specifically in Luke 17:25.  After telling the disciples a description of what the days of the Son of Man would look like before His return, He told them, "But FIRST must He suffer many things, and be rejected of *THIS* GENERATION."  (That's a "genea" generation he spoke of, dealing with a contemporary group living together at the same time.)   

Jesus would "suffer many things" from the same "THIS generation" that would end up rejecting Him; those who inflicted those sufferings upon Him also took part in rejecting Him.  John 1:11 and 5:43 tells us exactly who "THIS generation" is. "He came unto HIS OWN, and HIS OWN received him not."  Speaking to the unbelieving Jews in His presence, Jesus said "I am come in my Father's name, and YE receive me not...".  In other words, the "YE" composed of that first-century generation of unbelieving Jews was the same as "THIS generation" who rejected Jesus and caused His sufferings.  For this offense, even Moses would accuse them to the Father in the judgment, which would bring upon those fathers and their own children the "days of vengeance".

Your chronology of end times needs some serious revision, robycop3, to stay on track with scripture's timeline.

   Apparently, you didn't read my last post too closely. Lemme quote the first line from it :

No, the great trib has NOT yet occurred. It'll be worldwide when it does occur. Remember, Jerusalem was soon rebuilt after its AD70 destruction.

  But it has NOT occurred yet, nor has Satan been banished to the abyss. And obviously, Jesus hasn't physically returned yet.

  The millenium won't be until Jesus returns, during the antichrist's rule, & casts him & his sidekick the false prophet, into the LOF. Satan will be banished to "the abyss" during that time. Jesus will physically be here, ruling the world from Jerusalem. THAT'S WHAT SCRIPTURE SAYS.

  As for the famine of Agabus, there have been many famines after that one. There have been earthquakes, floods, & pandemics as well, not to mention wars.

  The next major prophetic event will either be the coming of the antichrist to power, or the Jews' building a new temple in Jerusalem. I don't know which will come first, but the temple will be there for the antichrist to commit the abomination of desolation in, that is, to enter that temple with the false prophet, set his statue up in it, and declare himself to be God, qasw well as the false prophet's instituting the mark of the beast. The rapture of the living saints will occur shortly before that, so there'll be little opposition to the mark of the beast.

  While God will be "orchestrating" these events, they'll seem to be quite-secular, so most people won't know they're from God, & so won't repent & be saved. remember, God said He'd send STRONG DELUSION upon the world , especially upon those the take the mark, so they won't come to Jesus. Shortly after that, the great trib will begin.

  The only miracles that'll be seen is the false prophet's supernaturally causing his boss' statue to speak, but it'll be thru Satan's power, not God's. But the adoring, deluded crowds won't know any different.

  Scripture, history, and reality prove preterism false.

same question to you robycop3-
Jesus forewarned his apostles and disciples about the signs to look for.  Do you believe they heeded his warnings during that generation?

: lea  Thu Mar 12, 2020 - 13:58:54
same question to you robycop3-
Jesus forewarned his apostles and disciples about the signs to look for.  Do you believe they heeded his warnings during that generation?

   Naturally, they did, although the only one of those events that occurred in any of their lifetimes was the destruction of J & the temple. The rest hasn't yet occurred.

: robycop3  Fri Mar 13, 2020 - 13:48:42
   Naturally, they did, although the only one of those events that occurred in any of their lifetimes was the destruction of J & the temple. The rest hasn't yet occurred.

The Olivet discourse to Jesus' disciples was a supernatural and natural prediction. They had the Holy Spirit to help them and guide them. And they performed miracles, etc., so you miss their supernatural state- not just natural! But then of course, you fail to give credit due to them with your dispensational eschatological opinions. Shame!
You say only Jerusalem and the temple fortress destruction was all that occurred, yet only 1 apostle lived till that time. Yet the parallel passages of Matt.24:4-14; Mark 13:5-13; and Luke 21:8-19 one cannot fail to perceive the distinct reference to the period between the Lord's crucifixion and the destruction of Jerusalem. Every word is spoken to the disciples, and to them alone.
"To imagine that the "ye" and "you" in His address apply , not to the disciples to whom Christ was speaking, but to some unknown and yet non-existent persons in a far distant age- is so preposterous a supposition as not to deserve serious notice." ~ The teaching of the Lord concerning the parousia~ J.S. Russell~ the Parousia.

We have the most ample testimony fully verified between the Lord's crucifixion and the end of the age. False Christs and false prophets began to make their appearances in the early periods of the Christian age, and continued to infe3wst the land down to the very close of Biblical Jewish history.
"In the procuratorship of Pilate (AD36), one such appeared in Samaria, and deluded great multitudes. Another in the procuratorship of Cuspius Fadus (AD 45). During the government of Felix (AD 53-60), Josephus tells us 'the country was full of robbers, magicians, false prophets, false Messiahs, and imposters, who deluded the people with promises of great events.
In the reign of the Emperor Claudius (AD 41-54), there were 4 seasons of great scarcity, the price of food became enormous and great numbers perished. Earthquakes occurred in each of the reigns of Caligula and Claudius."~ The Parousia.

Such calamities, the Lord gave His disciples to understand, would precede 'the end.' They were the 'beginning of the end;  but the 'end is not yet.' Then the Lord passes from the public to the personal; from the fortunes of nations and kingdoms in His discourse, to the fortunes of the disciples themselves.
They were to be brought before councils , rulers and kings, imprisoned, beaten in the synagogues, and hated of all men for Jesus' sake.
How all this was verified in the personal experience of the disciples we can read in the Acts of the Apostles and in the Epistles of St. Paul. With the exception of James the brother of John, the divine promise of protection in the hour of peril from their enemy's persecution was fulfilled. The apostolic history as recorded in the Acts (AD62). Word of James, Jesus' brother's death, in Jerusalem, AD 62 hadn't yet occurred.

The other sign that was to precede and usher in 'the 'end" was the gospel being preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations- "then the end shall come."

We have the authority of the fulfilment of this prediction by St. Paul for such universal diffusion of the gospel ( in Col.1,6,23).

We have one continuous discourse, relating to a particular event. Four sets of events: 1) the appearance of false Christs and false prophets. 2) Great social disturbances and natural calamities. 3) persecution of the disciples and apostasy of professed believers. 4) the general spread of the gospel throughout the Roman empire.

Then in Matt.15-22; Mark 13:14-20; and Luke 21:20-24, we see Jerusalem surrounded by armies. The rest follows in the one continuous discourse that leads to the Lord's real appearing in the clouds, as lightening shines from east to west. IOW'S, His appearing is not described as Him coming to earth physically in the natural. Perceive that and you begin to understand the time of the end in the Bible!

I could go on explaining the the resurrection of His elect and the corporate resurrection in Revelation 20:15.

What you really mean to say, did they look for those signs He gave. Yes, they did look, and obviously they did not happen in THEIR day, but there are those on a man's doctrine called Full Preterism that believe all... those signs, even Jesus' 2nd coming, already happened back in the Apostle's day. But why listen to those kind of cults that need to go back to school and re-learn reading comprehension, and have their vision checked?

God knows how to speak to peoples of different times, i.e., generations. This is why Apostle Peter even told the Church to be mindful of the words of God's OT prophets (2 Peter 3:2; 1 Corinthians 10:11). The signs Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse are not only for His disciples that were with Him upon the Mount of Olives. It is crazy obvious that He well knew they would not be alive at the time of His 2nd coming which is still future to us even.

So brethren need to check themselves for latching onto men's crazy doctrines which are so simply obviously ignorant, that it might make one look foolish by promoting it.

Hey dpr,

Just like Paul, we are willing to be called fools for Christ's sake, if by believing His words as given to that first-century generation we acknowledge Christ as being a True Apostle and Prophet.

It is more than obvious that there were some individuals who would not pass through death before Jesus had bodily returned in that generation among which Jesus was living during His earthly ministry.

Matthew 16:27-28.  "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.  Verily I say unto you, There be SOME STANDING HERE,  which shall not taste of death, til they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."  Were YOU standing there as Jesus spoke those words, dpr?  Certainly not, so that particular  promise of Christ's second coming with His angels and with rewards was NOT FOR YOU.  It was to a few of those standing directly in front of Jesus at that time who would still be alive on this earth when He returned with His angels, to reward every man according to his works. 

Don't worry, dpr, you won't be left out.  You are waiting for His THIRD scheduled appearance at the close of human history with the THIRD and final resurrection.  No saint ever ends up getting left behind in the dust of the grave.  "The Lord knoweth them that are his..."

: 3 Resurrections  Sun Mar 15, 2020 - 20:31:14
Hey dpr,

Just like Paul, we are willing to be called fools for Christ's sake, if by believing His words as given to that first-century generation we acknowledge Christ as being a True Apostle and Prophet.

Sorry brother, but that's not a valid comparison to what I was talking about. Paul was talking about our being called fools because of our Faith on Christ Jesus, not about the signs of the end our Lord gave.

It is more than obvious that there were some individuals who would not pass through death before Jesus had bodily returned in that generation among which Jesus was living during His earthly ministry.

Matthew 16:27-28.  "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.  Verily I say unto you, There be SOME STANDING HERE,  which shall not taste of death, til they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."  Were YOU standing there as Jesus spoke those words, dpr?  Certainly not, so that particular  promise of Christ's second coming with His angels and with rewards was NOT FOR YOU.  It was to a few of those standing directly in front of Jesus at that time who would still be alive on this earth when He returned with His angels, to reward every man according to his works. 

Well, that's yet another misinterpretation of Scripture, because here's the other Bible witnesses to what He said, and we need 2 or more witnesses remember?

Mark 9:1
9:1 And He said unto them, 'Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.'
KJV

The kingdom of God did come with power when Jesus died on the cross and The Father raised Him from the dead. Lot of Scripture to support that power too. That... is what He was talking about, NOT about His literal return to this earth in the future per Acts 1 and Zechariah 14, specifically to the Mount of Olives.

Now the cult Full Preterism actually believes Jesus' 2nd coming is past, and that it happened in the Apostle's days. Surely you're not of that ilk, for that doctrine is heresy.

Don't worry, dpr, you won't be left out.  You are waiting for His THIRD scheduled appearance at the close of human history with the THIRD and final resurrection.  No saint ever ends up getting left behind in the dust of the grave.  "The Lord knoweth them that are his..."

You have no call to make such false assumptions about me.

I am waiting for Christ's 2nd coming which is well written of, and will be a LITERAL return back to this earth, in Person. And belief that we literally sleep in a hole in the ground when we die is a Jewish tradition of men. Apostle Paul showed this in 2 Corinthians 5. And even Solomon revealed it in Eccl.12:5-7.

Hi dpr,

I'm mystified as to how you read a doctrine of "soul sleep" into my brief comment about the grave.  I've never propounded that theory for the saints before, and have not done so here either.

I'm equally mystified as to what "false assumption" that you presume I am making about you in this reply.  There was no offense intended, in case you are mistakenly reading one into what I wrote.

As you have said, two witnesses or more truly is the scriptural pattern for proving a point.  Which second witness to go along with Matthew 16:27-28 is available for us in Matthew 10:23, as a prediction for the persecution in various Israelite cities and Jewish synagogues  that the apostles would experience before Christ's second coming.  "But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, YE SHALL NOT HAVE GONE OVER THE CITIES OF ISRAEL TILL THE SON OF MAN BE COME."

If Christ's second coming has not already come and gone, then this verse would mean that there are still some 2,000-plus-years old apostles still being persecuted while they are currently evangelizing in Israel's cities today.  Which is a ludicrous impossibility.

The only "men's doctrines" that I am guilty of following in this regard to an AD 70 physical return of Christ to the Mount of Olives is that of Paul, who bluntly told Timothy in those first-century days, "Earnestly testify therefore I before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who *IS ABOUT TO* judge living and dead according to his appearing and his kingdom..." (II Timothy 4:1, written about AD 67).   Quite plainly, Timothy himself was told to expect Christ's IMMINENT, VISIBLE APPEARING and a judgement of the dead. The "days of vengeance" would be poured out on the living of that first-century generation as well, in retribution for crucifying their own prophesied Messiah.

And I AM talking about my faith in Christ (for which I am more than willing to be called a fool).  If we cannot put faith in and believe Christ's precise predictions for the conditions prevailing in the world before His first-century physical return, then Jesus was a false prophet of the worst magnitude.  His very divinity is on the line, based on His exact temporal descriptions of His return for THAT first-century generation.  Call it heresy if you wish, but I would rather stand by Christ's and the apostles' and prophets' clear-cut chronology of events for that end of the age that saw Him returning in the skies to literally stand on the Mount of Olives in AD 70.

You are mistaken that Mark 9:1 is talking about Christ's kingdom "coming with power" as being a description of the time of His own resurrection.  We can be certain of that from the verse immediately preceding it in Mark 8:38.  "Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in THIS adulterous and sinful generation" (that first-century generation), of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, WHEN HE COMETH IN THE GLORY OF HIS FATHER WITH THE HOLY ANGELS."  This is "second coming" language.

Immediately after this description of Christ's second coming with the holy angels, He then pronounced solemnly that verily, some standing there would not have died before they saw His kingdom coming with power.  This duplicates the same sense of the  Matthew 16:27-28 text.   It would make no sense to make such a portentous statement about His own resurrection, for that event was only a year or so away - not enough time for many or even most of those hearing His words to have died before that next year had passed.

: 3 Resurrections  Mon Mar 16, 2020 - 00:07:29
Hi dpr,

I'm mystified as to how you read a doctrine of "soul sleep" into my brief comment about the grave.  I've never propounded that theory for the saints before, and have not done so here either.

Well, you were the one who mentioned the 'dust in the grave' with that left behind idea.

I'm equally mystified as to what "false assumption" that you presume I am making about you in this reply.  There was no offense intended, in case you are mistakenly reading one into what I wrote.

Your false assumption about me was about a 3rd resurrection, pointing directly to the resurrection of the dead at the end of Christ's future "thousand years" reign. That's an assumption that I won't be joined with Christ but will be deceived. You don't know that, and shouldn't be making those wisecracks.

As you have said, two witnesses or more truly is the scriptural pattern for proving a point.  Which second witness to go along with Matthew 16:27-28 is available for us in Matthew 10:23, as a prediction for the persecution in various Israelite cities and Jewish synagogues  that the apostles would experience before Christ's second coming.  "But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, YE SHALL NOT HAVE GONE OVER THE CITIES OF ISRAEL TILL THE SON OF MAN BE COME."

If you deny the Mark 13:9-13 sign Jesus gave for the end with some being delivered up to give a Testimony by The Holy Spirit, then that is also to deny the 5th Seal event which is for the end of this world just prior to Christ's return...

Rev 6:9-11
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
KJV

It would mean also denying the prophecy of the coming Antichrist persecuting and making war against the saints just prior to Christ's return (Revelation 13:4-8; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 11:7; Daniel 7:21-22; Daniel 8:24; Daniel 12:7).

If Christ's second coming has not already come and gone, then this verse would mean that there are still some 2,000-plus-years old apostles still being persecuted while they are currently evangelizing in Israel's cities today.  Which is a ludicrous impossibility.

That is very... faulty reasoning.

The list of Christ's martyrs is very long, and it's still going on today. But the Mark 13:9-13 event is specifically for the end, which is why it is tied to the 5th Seal about a Testimony. Revelation 11 shows us more about that future event at the end with God's two witnesses that will appear in Jerusalem, and prophesy for 1260 days, and then be killed with their dead bodies left laying in the plaza, and then after 3 and 1/2 days, they rise up and ascend. Now try to tell me that was history! (No, don't, because I won't be able to stop laughing at your faulty reasoning against the Scriptures for a while).

As a matter of fact, the prophecy from the Book of Joel that Peter quoted on Pentecost was about the cloven tongue spoken on that day. But the actual Joel 2 Scripture where Peter quoted from, is about the very end of this world, showing there is to be a manifesting of that cloven tongue at the end just prior to the "day of the Lord", which is what the Mark 13 event is about for the end.

The only "men's doctrines" that I am guilty of following in this regard to an AD 70 physical return of Christ to the Mount of Olives is that of Paul, who bluntly told Timothy in those first-century days, "Earnestly testify therefore I before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who *IS ABOUT TO* judge living and dead according to his appearing and his kingdom..." (II Timothy 4:1, written about AD 67).   Quite plainly, Timothy himself was told to expect Christ's IMMINENT, VISIBLE APPEARING and a judgement of the dead. The "days of vengeance" would be poured out on the living of that first-century generation as well, in retribution for crucifying their own prophesied Messiah.

So far, looks like you're on the Full Preterist doctrines of men, a faulty tradition that will cause many to fall away from Christ, disregarding His command to watch for His 2nd coming.

: dpr  Sun Mar 15, 2020 - 18:31:27
What you really mean to say, did they look for those signs He gave. Yes, they did look, and obviously they did not happen in THEIR day, but there are those on a man's doctrine called Full Preterism that believe all... those signs, even Jesus' 2nd coming, already happened back in the Apostle's day. But why listen to those kind of cults that need to go back to school and re-learn reading comprehension, and have their vision checked?

Jesus was addressing his disciples right in front of him. Obviously didn't happen in their day? That is one of the most stupidest statements one could take fropm the Text. I have a 12 month old on my lap , so there. She won't be taught any futuristic dogma I'm sure!,

  Lea, J. S. Russell was a pret, so any view of his in eschatology is wrong. I don't believe a thing he said about Jesus' having already returned. It's all nonsense.

  Again, we go back to the FACTS that the antichrist/beast has NOT yet come, nor has the great trib occurred yet. And the "abomination of desolation" hasn't yet occurred, as there's been no temple for it to have occurred in. It did NOT occur on the temple of Jesus' time.

  You don't believe the trib won't come upon the whole world? Please carefully what JESUS said about it - Rev. 3:10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

    Yes, the Jews were hit hard in AD 66-70, but they were hit much-harder beginning 135-136 AD when they were booted outta their land, then, hated & persecuted wherever they went for some 1800 years, culminating in the nazi holocaust. (After that, God began to lift their punishment & gave them powerful allies in the USA & Britain.)

   Jesus performed many miracles & said many things to His disciples that weren't recorded in Scripture. But every word he wanted recorded & preserved for all then-future generations WAS recorded. And Matt. 24:29-31 are among those words. Outside of the destruction of J & the temple, the rest simply HAVEN'T YET HAPPENED !  They're not found in any work of history !  Besides, the world goes right on, as it did in 65 AD, 70 AD, & 75 AD. Jesus' return will completely change the world !

  Preterism is simply mens' guesswork, being promoted by Alcazar to try to keep his pope from being called the antichrist. It has no proof in history whatsoever.

: lea  Fri Mar 20, 2020 - 16:25:40
Jesus was addressing his disciples right in front of him. Obviously didn't happen in their day? That is one of the most stupidest statements one could take fropm the Text. I have a 12 month old on my lap , so there. She won't be taught any futuristic dogma I'm sure!,

  if those events happened then, they oughtta easily be found in any history book. However, there's absolutely NO reference to their occurrence in any legitimate work of history.

They are. I described them in my previous post.
. You like history but still the man hears or reads what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest.

And most is right in your Bible, if one has any common sense and insight.

Hi robycop3,

Why are you even bothering to bring up Rev. 3:10 as proof of your position in your reply #131, when it's obvious you don't even believe what it says? 

We both agree that it's talking about a *WORLDWIDE* TRIBULATION there, but again, you are totally ignoring WHEN John said it would arrive on the calendar.  He said it was in the very near future for those he was writing to in the Philadelphia assembly.

"Because thou didst keep the word of my endurance, I also thee will keep out of the hour of trial which IS *ABOUT TO COME* upon the whole habitable world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

If I say I am *ABOUT TO* LOG OFF this forum, it is patently ridiculous to say that 2,000 years and more will go by before I log off.  Same thing applies to John's words in Rev. 3:10.

John meant that his own generation was SOON "ABOUT TO" experience this period of WORLDWIDE TRIAL in THEIR days, which came to pass in that first-century generation, and definitely was recorded in "legitimate" eyewitness accounts of the time, as well as in scripture's record, as lea has said.  Apparently you just don't like the ramifications of what this recorded proof entails, so you ignore it and stick your fingers in your ears to avoid hearing it. 



For dpr,

My statement to you to "not worry" about being left out of the resurrection is not a "wisecrack" regarding your eternal destiny.  It is the very same reassurance that Paul directed to the Thessalonians saints, who thought they had missed the resurrection experience because Hymenaeus and Philetus were teaching the church that the bodily resurrection of the saints had already passed by that time. 

In a way, they were right that the  "FIRST RESURRECTION" actually HAD come and gone in AD 33 (Christ and the Matthew 27:52-53 saints being raised bodily from the dead).  But the anticipated SECOND RESURRECTION in the very near future in AD 70 was close at hand.  Paul was reassuring the believing relatives of the Thessalonian saints who had "fallen asleep" in Christ that the spirits of their dead loved ones were awaiting that soon-coming second resurrection, and their bodies would not be left behind in the grave as they feared would happen.

You and I, dpr, have the same reassurance that what God has done twice already, He will do again for the remainder of the New Covenant saints at a final THIRD RESURRECTION of the bodies of the saints in our future at the close of human history.  This, by the way, is far from being typical Full-Preterist dogma.

And this THIRD RESURRECTION in no way comes at the end of a FUTURE Rev.20 "millennium" as you suppose.  That literal thousand-year Rev. 20 millennium "expired" at the SAME TIME that Satan was loosed out of his prison into the earth, which John said was then a *PRESENT* DANGER happening at the very time he was writing.  "The Devil *IS* COME DOWN UNTO YOU, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a SHORT TIME."  (Rev.12:12).  Meaning a "short time" contemporary with the time  John was composing Revelation in AD 59/60.  Which consequently means that the literal "millennium" had ALREADY FINISHED as John was writing.

Revelation is a road map for prophecies, but not many pay any attention to the "date stamp" John provides for their fulfillment with his multiplied number of IMMINENT time markers that saturate the book. 

You are also grossly misplacing the time for the "testimony" given in Mark 13:9-13.  For the disciples to be "delivered up to COUNCILS", rulers and kings was speaking about the antagonistic Jewish Sanhedrin of the first century, as well as the high priest "rulers of the people" as Paul called them.   To be "beaten in the SYNAGOGUES" or to be summoned to testify before a body of the Sanhedrin are NOT threats hanging over the saints today.  However, the book of Acts and Paul's epistles recount several examples of this type of persecution for the apostles and the disciples of the first century.

You are connecting these who give "testimony" in Mark 13:9-13 with those souls  under the altar in Rev. 6:9-11 begging for vengeance of their shed blood.  Yes, in a way they are connected, but not in the way you think. 

Those souls under the altar in Rev. 6:9 are the very same "elect" who were already praying day and night for vengeance in Luke 18:7-8 (mentioned along with the parable of the "unjust judge").   Jesus said of them that God would avenge His own elect "SPEEDILY", which came to pass in that same generation - NOT 2,000 years and more down the line. 

These "elect", or souls under the altar were each given a bodily resurrection (that "white garment") along with Christ (the Matthew 27:52-53 saints).  They were told to "WAIT a LITTLE SEASON" (the same "little season" that the Devil  was loosed on the earth just after AD33's resurrection of Christ and the Matthew 27:52-63 saints), until their fellow-servants joined them in persecuted martyrdom. 

Revelation 6:11 said that these "fellow-servants and brethren" were "ABOUT TO BE KILLED" in the same manner as those other souls under the altar had been killed - under persecution for their testimony.  There is ample proof in both secular history and scripture record of intense levels of first-century martyrdom for the saints under tribulation in those days.

This "ABOUT TO" phrase pinpoints the martyrdom of the "fellow-servants" in Rev. 6:9-11 to the time CONTEMPORARY with John's writing.  It does NOT apply to any future martyrs after the AD 70 second resurrection, because all of those who have been killed for their testimony since then are currently waiting for the final THIRD resurrection instead.

And YES, the story of the "two witnesses" is  indeed past history.  Their names were Joshua ben Gamaliel and Ananus ben Annas - both of them former high priests murdered in the streets of Jerusalem during the Idumean nighttime attack on Jerusalem in AD 67/68 with their two myriads of 20,000 warriors under four commanders.  The bodies of these two former high priests, Joshua and Ananus, were left unburied by the Zealots who rejoiced over their murder.  This particular Revelation 11 event has more precise historical records that match the scripture's language about them than just about any other prophecy in Revelation.  I have written about them several times before on this forum and on other websites as well, such as at the following link:

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/how-do-preterists-view-the-2-witness-of-revelation/   reply #32

: 3 Resurrections  Fri Mar 20, 2020 - 21:17:04
Hi robycop3,

Why are you even bothering to bring up Rev. 3:10 as proof of your position in your reply #131, when it's obvious you don't even believe what it says?

  I believe it LITERALLY.

We both agree that it's talking about a *WORLDWIDE* TRIBULATION there, but again, you are totally ignoring WHEN John said it would arrive on the calendar.  He said it was in the very near future for those he was writing to in the Philadelphia assembly.

  Well, very-obviously, it DIDN'T occur then !

"Because thou didst keep the word of my endurance, I also thee will keep out of the hour of trial which IS *ABOUT TO COME* upon the whole habitable world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

If I say I am *ABOUT TO* LOG OFF this forum, it is patently ridiculous to say that 2,000 years and more will go by before I log off.  Same thing applies to John's words in Rev. 3:10.

  Obviously, it DIDN'T, as the events haven't yet occurred. If I say, I'm ABOUT to do something, I'm gonna do it soon, as I'm not God & don't have forever to do something. God is outside of time as we know it. He made time for us.

John meant that his own generation was SOON "ABOUT TO" experience this period of WORLDWIDE TRIAL in THEIR days, which came to pass in that first-century generation, and definitely was recorded in "legitimate" eyewitness accounts of the time, as well as in scripture's record, as lea has said.  Apparently you just don't like the ramifications of what this recorded proof entails, so you ignore it and stick your fingers in your ears to avoid hearing it.  [/quote]

(Snipped to include only those parts addressed to me)

  Sir, with all due respect:

  I have Encyclopaedia Britannica, World Book Encyclopedia, & Collier's Encyclopedia right in fronta me, and not one of those respected & unbiased works of history have the occurrences of any of those events in them ! Rev. 13 gives a brief look at the antichrist & false prophet, & further chapters of rev describe the events of the great trib, & it's obvious that none of them have yet occurred !

  When did all life in the sea(Presumably the Mediterranean) die?
  When was Jerusalem split into 3 sections by an earthquake?
  When was there anyone who ruled the entire world & demanded everyone to worship him?
  When was the marka the beast issued, to replace all cash or plastic money?
  There are many other great trib events that haven't occurred, either, worldwide.

   And Jesus said that, if that time wasn't cut short, no flesh(man & animal) would survive.
   And He said He'd return IMMEDIATELY AFTER those days, to be seen by ALL! Very obviously, He HAS NOT yet returned!

  History and reality makes liars outta every pret ! It's a false doctrine !

As always, robycop3 has empty words and no proof for anything he claims in the Biblical eschatology.

Just a troll !

Hi robycop3,

The only "obvious" fact is that, by your statements, you are essentially calling the Apostle John a false prophet.  You appear to believe that your encyclopedia sources represent the sum of all knowledge, beyond what the inspired prophet John had to say.

Why are you willing to believe an encyclopedia over the prophet John?  If John said those future events in Revelation were "AT HAND", why would you want to call the prophet John a liar?  God already defined for us just how He wants you to understand that Rev. 1:3 and 22:10  phrase "AT HAND", as found earlier in Ezekiel 12:21-28.  It means those hearing any prophecy originally for the first time would experience the fulfillment of the prophecy in THEIR DAYS - they would NOT be "prolonged" into times that are "far off".

As I said above, you have the wrong "date stamp" on your prophetic road map to begin with, which sends all your interpretations of Bible prophecy off in the wrong direction.  Your interpretations are all based on your own perceptions and level of historical knowledge, which are not without limits. 

I trust the inspired prophetic words given to the Apostle John instead.  If he said "soon", "quickly", "about to come", and "at hand", he meant that the time for Revelation's prophetic fulfillments was contemporary to his own first-century generation. 

Get the "date stamp" right for Revelation, and you will get your interpretation of it right.  There are literal historical answers for every prophecy you mentioned (and any you didn't mention).  But until you get your head wrapped around that single phrase "AT HAND", you will continue to operate with your  prophetic compass off course.

  Sorry, Sir; you're simply WRONG.

  I have not only the encyclopediae I mentioned earlier, but several other works of history as well, and NONE of them say the events you SAY have already happened, HAVE already happened ! besides that, I can simply look around. There's simply no sign of those events having already occurred !

When did all the life in the sea die? (You couldn't answer that one earlier !)
When, since before the exodus of Israel from Egypt has water been turned to blood, and worldwide at that ?
H U H ?

  Truth is, those things haven't yet happened! And JESUS certainly hasn't returned !

: robycop3  Sat Mar 21, 2020 - 17:33:47
  Sorry, Sir; you're simply WRONG.

  I have not only the encyclopediae I mentioned earlier, but several other works of history as well, and NONE of them say the events you SAY have already happened, HAVE already happened ! besides that, I can simply look around. There's simply no sign of those events having already occurred !

When did all the life in the sea die? (You couldn't answer that one earlier !)
When, since before the exodus of Israel from Egypt has water been turned to blood, and worldwide at that ?
H U H ?

  Truth is, those things haven't yet happened! And JESUS certainly hasn't returned !

Truth is you lack understanding for sure in the book of Revelation. Knowledge is power and you have little! Looking for literal fulfillment in prophetic apocalyptic language is your weakness and it's a big one! You don't know zilch about when and where to apply literal language and where to apply figurative prophetic language.

robycop3 just sings the same old childish words of the flesh and is a troll to those in the know.

https://www.crosswalk.com/slideshows/10-common-mistakes-people-make-when-reading-revelation.html

  M'am, you cannot prove a thing you say.

  You call the words of certain Scriptures "apolyptic, figurative, symbolic", etc. because they don't fit your imagination & your invented history. fact is, most Scripture is LITERAL, but you'd rather believe man-made garbage, such as that of Alcazar, Gentry, Preston, etc. and not face REALITY.

**preterism - phony as a ford corvette !**

  As for this thread's original theme, "this generation" is clearly the one that shall see all these things fulfilled, as it's quite-obvious they have NOT been yet fulfilled !

: robycop3  Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 09:54:33
  As for this thread's original theme, "this generation" is clearly the one that shall see all these things fulfilled, as it's quite-obvious they have NOT been yet fulfilled !

Yea, you keep saying that over and over. How boring!

: lea  Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 13:03:55
Yea, you keep saying that over and over. How boring!

But you CANNOT disprove it.

: robycop3  Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 13:40:54
But you CANNOT disprove it.

Look at the archives. Preterists disproved your reality 50x over. Your interpretations of reality reads like a sci-fi horror movie.

Who can teach you about "this generation" if Jesus cannot?

: lea  Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 15:33:48
Look at the archives. Preterists disproved your reality 50x over. Your interpretations of reality reads like a sci-fi horror movie.

Who can teach you about "this generation" if Jesus cannot?

  Jesus DID teach me. One generation will see all these events, as He said. But they haven't yet happened.

Proof?

Very easy and profound - Jesus hasn't yet returned.

: robycop3  Mon Mar 23, 2020 - 05:13:07
  Jesus DID teach me. One generation will see all these events, as He said. But they haven't yet happened.

Proof?

Very easy and profound - Jesus hasn't yet returned.

Too easy. It takes study and comparing Scripture with Scripture. Noting also the experiences of the apostles and the events Jesus told them would occur before the destruction of Jerusalem and the promise to Israel of the Resurrection. (Daniel12)

  No, those things in Daniel 12 have NOT yet occurred, especially the great trib. Remember, Jesus said He will return IMMEDIATELY AFTER the great trib is ended.

  TRUTH is, the eschatological events are yet to occur. No getting around it.

: robycop3  Tue Mar 24, 2020 - 05:01:02
  No, those things in Daniel 12 have NOT yet occurred, especially the great trib. Remember, Jesus said He will return IMMEDIATELY AFTER the great trib is ended.

  TRUTH is, the eschatological events are yet to occur. No getting around it.

Truth is, you keep repeating yourself saying nothing.

: dpr  Wed Feb 26, 2020 - 01:25:59
Right, but there is actually more Scripture proof that He meant those signs in His Olivet discourse for the end of this present world, and not 70 A.D. The way we know that is by parallel study of His Olivet discourse with the Seals of Revelation 6 given to His Church.

You have argued that "this generation" couldn't have meant 70 AD because in your eschatology it's still the future?   Can you see why none of us find that a compelling argument?

I guess I'll just throw out such counter reasons as if Jesus didn't mean his generation then he didn't answer the question that he was going through the motion of answering.  Do you know the question?   

: lea  Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 15:33:48
Look at the archives. Preterists disproved your reality 50x over. Your interpretations of reality reads like a sci-fi horror movie.

The person to whom you addressed that looks like nothing but a troll.  He never adds anything of value to any thread, but that doesn't stop him from prolific posting, mostly the same nonsense over and over.

: lea  Sun Mar 22, 2020 - 15:33:48
Look at the archives. Preterists disproved your reality 50x over. Your interpretations of reality reads like a sci-fi horror movie.

Who can teach you about "this generation" if Jesus cannot?

  No, they didn't. It was guesswork, not FACTS.

: M Luther  Wed Mar 25, 2020 - 15:31:44
The person to whom you addressed that looks like nothing but a troll.  He never adds anything of value to any thread, but that doesn't stop him from prolific posting, mostly the same nonsense over and over.

  Can YOU prove preterism true ? Betcha can't !

: robycop3  Wed Mar 25, 2020 - 16:38:39
  Can YOU prove preterism true ? Betcha can't !

Not to you! The eyes of the flesh won't be able to recognize Christ's spiritual kingdom (and maybe the blessings associated with it too)  Sorry!

: lea  Fri Mar 27, 2020 - 10:58:40
Not to you! The eyes of the flesh won't be able to recognize Christ's spiritual kingdom (and maybe the blessings associated with it too)  Sorry!

Sorry, M'am; you can't prove it true to ANYONE. Again, there's simply no evidence that the events you SAY have occurred, HAVE already occurred. They're not found in history at all.

: robycop3  Fri Mar 27, 2020 - 17:20:27
Sorry, M'am; you can't prove it true to ANYONE. Again, there's simply no evidence that the events you SAY have occurred, HAVE already occurred. They're not found in history at all.

No, you're the exception (in a negative way).

P.S.- I reported you for trolling!

: lea  Sat Mar 28, 2020 - 11:47:03
No, you're the exception (in a negative way).

P.S.- I reported you for trolling!

  No trolling. I asked for EVIDENCE to prove your assertions, and you've provided none. So, technically, YOU could be a troll for posting wild, unsubstantiated tall tales. I posted Scriptural prophecies which you said were already fulfilled, but you can't provide one quark of PROOF.

So, WHO's the REAL troll ?

: robycop3  Sun Mar 29, 2020 - 09:43:55
  No trolling. I asked for EVIDENCE to prove your assertions, and you've provided none. So, technically, YOU could be a troll for posting wild, unsubstantiated tall tales. I posted Scriptural prophecies which you said were already fulfilled, but you can't provide one quark of PROOF.

So, WHO's the REAL troll ?

You already got your evidence in previous posts. If you disagree, you should just say that and leave it at that. You only try to prove your points by comparing the Bible to events of today. The Bible wasn't written to us, but for us.

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

  The Bible was written both TO us & FOR us. And, M'am, I have several encyclopediae in front of me as well as several other works of history, as well as a whole internet full of intel, plus a general knowledge gained from 71 years of living & several HS & college history courses. And NONE of the prophesied eschatological  events you SAY have happened are found in them, except as repeats of Scriptural prophecy.

  And reducing "inconvenient" Scriptures to "symbolic/figurative" status just won't work. the record of Jesus' literally-fulfilled prophecies kills that goofy stuff. Jesus prophesied that not one stone of the temple would be left upon another, & the proof of that literal fulfillment lies on Mt. Zion today. And archaeological evidence confirms the historical accounts of Jerusalem's destruction in AD 70.

  But Jesus prophesied WORLDWIDE great tribulation, that'll be the worst in history. Don't think it's worldwide ?  Here's what else Jesus said:
Rev. 3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Now, when did all life in the sea die? (Presuming it's the Mediterranean)
When has the sun scorched men with fire? (Not counting sunburn, which is as old as mankind)
When was the marka the beast issued, by whom, & what does it look like ?
When was modern Babylon (Presumably Rome, italy) destroyed ?
If the great trib has occurred, WHEN DID JESUS RETURN, SEEN BY ALL, AS HE SAID ?

: robycop3  Sun Mar 29, 2020 - 12:29:49
  The Bible was written both TO us & FOR us. And, M'am, I have several encyclopediae in front of me as well as several other works of history, as well as a whole internet full of intel, plus a general knowledge gained from 71 years of living & several HS & college history courses. And NONE of the prophesied eschatological  events you SAY have happened are found in them, except as repeats of Scriptural prophecy.

  And reducing "inconvenient" Scriptures to "symbolic/figurative" status just won't work. the record of Jesus' literally-fulfilled prophecies kills that goofy stuff. Jesus prophesied that not one stone of the temple would be left upon another, & the proof of that literal fulfillment lies on Mt. Zion today. And archaeological evidence confirms the historical accounts of Jerusalem's destruction in AD 70.

  But Jesus prophesied WORLDWIDE great tribulation, that'll be the worst in history. Don't think it's worldwide ?  Here's what else Jesus said:
Rev. 3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Now, when did all life in the sea die? (Presuming it's the Mediterranean)
When has the sun scorched men with fire? (Not counting sunburn, which is as old as mankind)
When was the marka the beast issued, by whom, & what does it look like ?
When was modern Babylon (Presumably Rome, italy) destroyed ?
If the great trib has occurred, WHEN DID JESUS RETURN, SEEN BY ALL, AS HE SAID ?

You don't seem to understand APOCALYPTIC LANGUAGE in any of your questions. And mystery Babylon was Jerusalem (where the Lord was crucified).

You can learn more if you want to.

You are correct about one thing though.... the judgment was upon the whole world and not just on the Jews.

https://www.preteristarchive.com/0000_preston_local-judgment/

     When was this to happen? Read verse 36. "Assuredly, I say to you all these things shall come upon this generation".

     The evidence is overwhelming to the candid student. The destruction of Jerusalem was far more than the fall of a Jewish city. There were universal, spiritual, eternal realities at work, "behind the scenes", but very present and very real nonetheless.
     Summary

     We have examined the contention that Jerusalem's fall was simply a localized judgment on the Jews. We have shown from Jesus' own words that he did not consider it to be so. The whole world (oikoumene), which was to hear the message of judgment, Matthew 24:14, was to be judged, Acts 17:30-31; and be in distress, Luke 21:25-26, Revelation 3:10. We have seen this was definitely to happen in that generation.

     Further, we have demonstrated that other New Testament writers taught that "universal judgment" was imminent, Matthew 16:27-28, cf. Revelation 22:12. Peter taught it, 1 Peter 4:5,7,17; James 5:7-9 and others.

     Finally, we have seen Jesus unequivocally state that the judgment of all the dead, all the way back to creation, was to be when Jerusalem fell, Matthew 23:29-39.

     For all these reasons and more we find untenable the contention that the fall of Jerusalem was a localized judgment. It was in fact the universal judgment of the living and the dead!

Robycop3, you're not getting answers to the questions you are demanding because you are asking the wrong questions. 

#1)  It was NOT as you are saying, "all life in the sea" that died (as in all marine life in the ocean); it was "every LIVING *SOUL* died in the sea".  Fulfilled as in Josephus' account of the death of all those Israelite pirate sailors who had fled to the sea from the city of Joppa on the Mediterranean coast in Wars 3.9.2-3.  I suggest you read the account, if you haven't already.  Blood from multiple thousands of all those dead Israelite sailors filled the sea for a "long way", by Josephus' record.

#2)  It was NOT as you are saying, that the SUN scorched men with fire in Rev. 16:8-9; scripture says it was the ANGEL that did this.  "Power was given unto HIM to scorch men with fire".  The "sun" in this context receiving JUDGMENT by the fourth angel's vial is the same "sun" that is now absent in the New Jerusalem of Rev. 21:23.  The sun is a representation of the high priest leadership of Israel, (rather like Joseph's dream of the sun, moon, and stars picturing his father, mother, and the sons of Jacob respectively).  No "sun" or "moon" in the New Jerusalem means no more Levitical high priesthood or priests, since we now have the "Lamb" serving as our high priest.  WE as saints are now kings and priests unto God ourselves, each with open access to the mercy seat.

#3)  Scripture never says that the mark of the Beast would replace all plastic or cash money, as you presume. I've already told you before what the mark of the Beast from the land (of Israel) was, and when it was issued, and what it looked like.  It was the Tyrian shekel and half shekel, minted in Jerusalem by the request of the high priesthood, as a favor granted by the permission and authorization of Rome in 19 BC.  Which Tyrian shekel and half-shekel were required by the priests for all Temple sales and purchases and yearly Temple Tax.  Covered with abominable, forbidden images and inscriptions, but forced upon the people of Israel by their leaders, and which gave unspoken homage to Rome (as the Sea Beast) and its pagan gods.  You need a picture for documentation?  You can buy one online for about 7 to 8 hundred bucks.   Google it.

#4)  And scripture never says that it was going to be "MODERN Babylon" that would be destroyed, as you presume.  It was going to be "Babylon the great" (Rev. 17:5) which would be destroyed, which was the same as "That great city" (Rev. 17:18), which was also "the great city ...where also our Lord was crucified" (Rev. 11:8).  Undoubtedly, this was Old Covenant Jerusalem which had the blood of the apostles, prophets, and martyred saints  on its hands (Rev.18:24) as Jesus had accused Jerusalem of being guilty of these crimes (Luke 11:49-51 and Matthew 24:34-37).

#5)  You are presuming that John prophesied that "every eye" seeing Christ's return to earth would be every eye of every person on the globe simultaneously seeing Him.  John didn't say this.  John expressly LIMITED his statement to apply *SPECIFICALLY* TO "THOSE WHO PIERCED HIM".  That's what the word "even" means in Rev. 1:7 - "EVEN they which pierced Him" means "NAMELY" or "SPECIFICALLY those which pierced Him" who would be the ones that would see Christ bodily returning with His angels. 

Some of that generation who were there when Jesus was crucified were still alive to see Him from inside Jerusalem when He bodily returned to the Mount of Olives, as Christ predicted in Matthew 16:27-28.  Those wicked ones who pierced Him who had died in the interim saw Him returning in their "resurrection to damnation" in AD 70 Jerusalem, when they were destroyed, body and soul.  Death and those wicked in the grave were cast into Jerusalem's Lake of Fire during its "Second death" at that time, to exist no more afterward.

#6)  Scripture never says in Rev. 16:19 that the EARTHQUAKE would split Jerusalem into three different sections of land portions.  These "Three PARTS" that Jerusalem was divided into were a replica of Ezekiel's prophecy of Jerusalem's INHABITANTS being divided into experiencing three different types of disasters that befell them during the Babylonian invasion.  One third of Jerusalem's people at that time would die from pestilence and famine; another third would fall to the sword; and a final third would be scattered to all the winds, with a sword drawn after them (Ezekiel 5:12).   Ezekiel pictured these three disasters by dividing up the shaved hair of his head into "three PARTS" (Ezekiel 5:1-2)

These three disasters that 586 BC Jerusalem experienced were exactly the same three fates that awaited Jerusalem's inhabitants in the AD 70 era during its destruction.  All of which is documented in historical record.

You may reject all of these points, robycop3, but you are not actually the audience I am writing them for anyway. 

: M Luther  Wed Mar 25, 2020 - 01:25:13
You have argued that "this generation" couldn't have meant 70 AD because in your eschatology it's still the future?   Can you see why none of us find that a compelling argument?

I guess I'll just throw out such counter reasons as if Jesus didn't mean his generation then he didn't answer the question that he was going through the motion of answering.  Do you know the question?

I don't have to make some compelling argument to please people who think like you. The Scriptures are their own evidence, either one accepts them as written, or they reject them. And that involves using proper grammar also as to what is written, not adding doctrines of men that aren't even there in the first place.

Nor can you put your own twist on what Jesus meant in His Olivet discourse to serve a tradition of men you instead want to push. The Scripture only need to be read in simplicity.

Hi dpr,

I understand the point M Luther was trying to make (though it was phrased in a manner that was slightly confusing).

Basically, M Luther's accusation against robycop3's line of reasoning is that his main foundation for interpretation of scriptural eschatology is based solely on his own observations and understanding of history as he is aware of it.  His hermeneutics are flawed from the very beginning, because he is setting up his interpretations with HIMSELF and his sources of knowledge about world history as the ultimate interpreter of all things eschatological.  Not the wisest debate practice if one wants to arrive at scriptural truth, since his knowledge and his sources are limited in scope.

This is why I am continually pressing him on the "AT HAND" temporal limits that John put on his own writing in Revelation (Rev.1:3, and 22:10).  God's own precise definition of what He means by an "AT HAND" prophecy in Ezekiel 12:21-28 CANNOT be disregarded when understanding and interpreting Revelation.  We MUST *START* our interpretations of eschatology with the terms that God Himself uses  to limit His own prophetic writing, or we veer off in the wrong direction at the very outset of our study.  First things first.

You are quite correct that we are to "accept scripture as written" - especially those "AT HAND" temporal limits for Revelation - using proper grammar to understand this phrase.  It is indeed, as you say, reading scripture in true "simplicity" that leads to a Preterist type of understanding of Revelation.  I have had to dump the "traditions of men" that I was raised with regarding the meaning of "THIS generation" to arrive at the paradigm I now hold.

1.) Pure guesswork. There were many more sailors in the Mediterranean then than a few Israeli pirates. And they didn't even begin to all die at any time. The Scripture makes no mention of pirates. rev. 16:3 Then the second angel poured out his bowl on the sea, and it became blood as of a dead man; and every living creature in the sea died.

2.)  Again, another pret episode of symbolizing literal Scripture! Rev. 16:8 The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was allowed to scorch people with fire.

3.) HORSE FEATHERS ! The Scripture says the mark's recipients will receive it on their right hands or foreheads. Know anyone wearing a shekel on his/her forehead ? The mark has NOT yet been given, & it'll most likely be some sorta microchip. The tech exists NOW !

4.) OLD Babylon no longer exists. Look what happened to Saddam Hussein for trying to rebuild it ! The present Babylon is likely Rome, italy.

5.)  MMRRPP !WRONG !
     John wrote "EVEN those who pierced Him" ! That shows that 'those who pierced him' could not ordinarily see His return, if He doesn't cause them to. That means all souls in hades will see His return, as He told John by saying "ALL" ! Who does "all" leave out ? ? ?
   Jesus has NOT yet returned! You're making that stuff up, & it's phony as a Ford Corvette ! You might as well chuck that garbage, as you don't have one quark of PROOF for it.

6.) Again, you're trying to shoehorn something into a fulfillment of prophecy, trying to place a square peg into a round hole. First, the Rev wasn't given til after the destruction of J & the temple. Second, the Scriptures say it'll be the mightiest earthquake ever, not just in Jerusalem, accompanied by a rain of rocks. And all the islands will be "fled away" !

  You're desperately trying to justify pret garbage by reducing some Scriptures to "figurative/symbolic" status, while ignoring the LITERAL fulfillment of Jesus' prophecies up til now.

Isn't Judah being restored?
Isn't Egypt (Pop. 80 million) afraid of Israel? (Pop. 6 million)(as per Isaiah 19)
Hasn't there been a "great falling away", with acceptance of LGBTQ, fornication, abortion, etc. etc?
Wise, up, Sir, & toss all that garbage by Preston, Gentry, etc ! It's all a lie !

Quote from: robycop3 on Today at 17:07:07


    6.) Again, you're trying to shoehorn something into a fulfillment of prophecy, trying to place a square peg into a round hole. First, the Rev wasn't given til after the destruction of J & the temple. Second, the Scriptures say it'll be the mightiest earthquake ever, not just in Jerusalem, accompanied by a rain of rocks. And all the islands will be "fled away" !

Wow, what a messed up reality that looks like.
So glad I was spared from that junk. Do futurists have a mind of their own? or do they just believe it like law and not see that preachers make (mock) the book of Revelation like a fictional movie?

It's making the same mistake as the Pharisees in Jesus' day, looking for a fleshly kingdom to rule over Rome.


Proverbs 13:12 KJV - Hope deferred maketh the heart sick ...

The apostles were expecting the Lord to "return" in their lifetime.  Deal with it!

Robycop3, not a single one of your interpretations for Revelation can even remotely qualify as being a fulfillment of an "AT HAND" prophecy of Revelation.  Anything "AT HAND" was timed to occur in "this generation" of John's immediate audience. 

This particular time limit is not MY invention, or any other Preterist's.  It's GOD'S definition, as found in Ezekiel 12:21-28.  You are ignoring God's strict time limit put upon this "AT HAND" phrase.   The present day microchip, the modern state of Israel, modern Egypt and Israel's current relationship - all these you mentioned have NOTHING to do with John's generation that expected the soon fulfillment of Revelation's prophecies that were "AT HAND" in THEIR days. 

It's amazing how you studiously ignore this critical point, and instead use your own experience and knowledge as the benchmark by which we are to interpret these prophecies.  Whether you intend to or not, it is pure vanity on display to set your own level of knowledge against God's stipulated standard by which we are to interpret everything He revealed to John.

Nothing you say has any credibility until you can address God's definition of what an "AT HAND" prophecy is according to Ezekiel 12:21-28.  If you don't start with that to begin with, you will inevitably miss John's meaning for every near-future prophecy between the "AT HAND" term limits found in Rev.1:3 and Rev. 22:10.

  Sir, no matter how many times you repeat "at hand", the TRUTH is, THE ESCHATOLOGICAL EVENTS HAVE NOT YET OCCURRED ! There's simply no getting around that great big mountain of a FACT. trying to shoehorn in other events as fulfillment of those prophecies simply won't work. Square peg, round hole.

Sir, no matter how many times you repeat that "It hasn't happened yet", you are in denial of God's clear-cut statement that those prophesied events were "AT HAND", or "present" for that first-century generation in THEIR DAYS.  It takes the humble faith of a little child to surrender ones own ideas, and to accept God's words on the subject as the ultimate determining factor.  In effect, you are calling both Jesus and John liars.

Dpr was quite correct on the other thread that understanding eschatology needs "simplicity" and an understanding of "proper grammar", plus a willingness to discard the "traditions of men" if necessary, in order to interpret scripture correctly.

We serve a God who is constantly doing things beyond our expectations.   Why should eschatology be any different?

 Well, the "simplicity" is that those events have NOT yet happened. As I said, I have access to extensive works of history, and the occurrence of those events would NOT have been overlooked!

  And reducing those prophecies to "figurative/symbolic" status won't work. Jesus' other prophecies in that set have LITERALLY cometa pass, & there's no reason to not believe the rest won't cometa pass just-as-literally.

And as I said, you are still calling Jesus and John liars by not believing their dictates of how to interpret their "AT HAND" prophecies in Ezekiel and Revelation.  This is not wise to believe your own limited knowledge and resources over and above God Himself.

And you are presuming that no Christian of the first century ever recorded Christ's physical, LITERAL return in the clouds once it happened.  We are still continuing to uncover ancient artifacts today by archeological research, you know.  Like those four boat anchors recently found on the Mediterranean sea floor that were cut off of the ship during Paul's perilous voyage to Rome.  Like the 40 feet layer of rubble in the Kidron Valley from the AD 70 earthquake when the peak of the Mount of Olives broke apart and slid down the mountain's slopes to fill up the valley below as far as Azal.  This happened in specific, LITERAL fulfillment of Zechariah 14:4-5 LXX's prophecy for Christ's second coming return.  Already happened.  Physical, LITERAL proof is there to see and analyze.

  Your "proof' is rather bogus. Many ancient ships foundered or sank in the Med, & many cut their anchors for various reasons.

  And, when the Mt. of Olives DOES split, it'll create a VALLEY, not a rubble heap.

And, of course, you ignore what JESUS HIMSELF said about His retuen. He said He will come IN GREAT POWER & GLORY, & will be seen by all, even those who pierced Him. He said His return will be visible as lightning.

  Sorry, chap; you still haven't proven a thing.

: 3 Resurrections  Mon Mar 30, 2020 - 10:46:26
Hi dpr,

I understand the point M Luther was trying to make (though it was phrased in a manner that was slightly confusing).

Basically, M Luther's accusation against robycop3's line of reasoning is that his main foundation for interpretation of scriptural eschatology is based solely on his own observations and understanding of history as he is aware of it.  His hermeneutics are flawed from the very beginning, because he is setting up his interpretations with HIMSELF and his sources of knowledge about world history as the ultimate interpreter of all things eschatological.  Not the wisest debate practice if one wants to arrive at scriptural truth, since his knowledge and his sources are limited in scope.

That of course is just your opinion, and doesn't reveal the Truth of the simple Scriptures in question. Anyone can just say, "their hermeneutics is flawed, etc." and it means absolutely nothing without going to the Scriptures to provide proof. We don't see those on Preterism being able to provide Scripture proof to back up their claim, and your claim is certainly no exception.

This is why I am continually pressing him on the "AT HAND" temporal limits that John put on his own writing in Revelation (Rev.1:3, and 22:10).  God's own precise definition of what He means by an "AT HAND" prophecy in Ezekiel 12:21-28 CANNOT be disregarded when understanding and interpreting Revelation.  We MUST *START* our interpretations of eschatology with the terms that God Himself uses  to limit His own prophetic writing, or we veer off in the wrong direction at the very outset of our study.  First things first.

Using that "at hand" as a pointer to only Apostle John's era is fallacy. It's simply a sole Greek word (eggus) which means 'near'. How near? Doesn't tell us. What in Revelation does... tell us how near those events are? The Signs Jesus gave John to write down, of course, the very events. And they happen to be the Signs Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse also, also linked with what the OT prophets showed for the end of this world, and also linked with many NT passages about the events at the end of this world. There is so much other Scripture proof for the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials in Revelation being about the end of this world leading up to Christ's 2nd coming, that it is impossible to read very far in all of God's Word and not run into that Scripture evidence. But Preterism wants to stop use of all that Scripture evidence and just do a poker bluff against it using that one Greek word for 'near'? No, that doesn't work, and that bluff is a major sign in itself showing the crept in unawares of Jude 1 working against Christ and His Word. They are the ones who want to destroy all that Scripture evidence about the end of this world.

You are quite correct that we are to "accept scripture as written" - especially those "AT HAND" temporal limits for Revelation - using proper grammar to understand this phrase.  It is indeed, as you say, reading scripture in true "simplicity" that leads to a Preterist type of understanding of Revelation.  I have had to dump the "traditions of men" that I was raised with regarding the meaning of "THIS generation" to arrive at the paradigm I now hold.

That's just another 'bluff'.

Reading God's Word in its simplicity debunks man's doctrines of Preterism. (It debunks a Pre-trib Rapture too, so you can't just slap seminary labels on someone who stays with what is actually written in God's Word.)

: 3 Resurrections  Mon Mar 30, 2020 - 10:46:26

I have had to dump the "traditions of men" that I was raised with regarding the meaning of "THIS generation" to arrive at the paradigm I now hold.

In Christ's Olivet discourse, He made it very simple as to what 'generation' He was pointing to. He tied 'all these things' meaning all those 7 Signs He gave being for the generation living that would see them.

The last sign He gave was the 1 Thessalonians 4 gathering of resurrected saints with alive saints on the last day of this world (Matthew 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27).

That event of Christ's 2nd coming and gathering of His Church is Bible prophesy in many New Testament Scriptures, and in Old Testament Scripture. So to assign that event as past history is to mock much of the direct Bible evidence, including direct statements as to how Jesus and His Apostles said His Church will be gathered on the last day.


Preterism is a design by Satan's hosts who want to create a mimic of Christ's future Kingdom here on earth. You just don't realize that yet.

The reason why Preterism tries to make Christian brethren believe that Christ's Kingdom is already established here on earth today in full, all Scripture fulfilled, is actually in preparation for the coming "strong delusion" by the Antichrist that's coming, and whom the false Jews will setup as 'king of the world' (their label, not mine). That is their plan for our near future. And it's that one-world government movement during the coming tribulation that will be a kingdom of the devil here on earth for the very end; that our Lord Jesus and His Apostles were warning His servants about, so that we would not be deceived at the end.

The reality is that Christ's Kingdom is only spiritually established here on earth today, through His many-membered body of believers. It is not yet LITERALLY established here on earth as it is written that it will be when Jesus returns to this earth to reign over ALL nations.

Dpr, lets keep this really, really simple.  Since my usual practice is to post a lot of material (with plenty of scripture to back up my points), I'll only post a single text comparison that you need to address in order to validate your position.

You, and those who hold to a like paradigm, have not given an answer to God's lengthy definition of what an "AT HAND" prophecy includes in Ezekiel 12:21-28.  Your entire viewpoint of all of Revelation's prophecies having fulfillment in our future goes up in smoke if you cannot counter God's definition of this kind of "AT HAND" prophecy.   "AT HAND", as Jarrod has already pointed out before, means "PRESENT".   Or, as God has already explained it in Ezekiel 12:21-28, an "AT HAND" prophecy is NOT "PROLONGED" into "TIMES THAT ARE FAR OFF".  It is fulfilled "IN *YOUR DAYS*" to the ones hearing it originally.  An "AT HAND" prophecy is not only spoken by God, but it it also "performed" and is "done" in the days of those hearing it for the first time when God "says the word".

Please respond to this one Ezekiel 12:21-28 text.  If you can't, or you avoid answering it, you have lost all credibility.

: 3 Resurrections  Tue Apr 07, 2020 - 08:52:21
Dpr, lets keep this really, really simple.  Since my usual practice is to post a lot of material (with plenty of scripture to back up my points), I'll only post a single text comparison that you need to address in order to validate your position.

Nah, your usual practice is to post a lot 'theory' and try to use Scripture that doesn't support your theories. Most of your posts involve very little Scripture I've noticed, so no since in trying to make excuses for not posting Scripture backup now!

You, and those who hold to a like paradigm, have not given an answer to God's lengthy definition of what an "AT HAND" prophecy includes in Ezekiel 12:21-28.  Your entire viewpoint of all of Revelation's prophecies having fulfillment in our future goes up in smoke if you cannot counter God's definition of this kind of "AT HAND" prophecy.   "AT HAND", as Jarrod has already pointed out before, means "PRESENT".

I already covered what "at hand" in Revelation 1:3 means per the NT Greek. It's simply a Greek word that means 'near'. It's an adverb. It does NOT give a specific time. So you can't use that to infer those Revelation events all happened in Apostle John's days. And I never said all of Christ's Book of Revelation was future. His seven Messages He gave to the Churches through John were historical. But they still apply to all Churches today too though, even though He first gave them back in history. And I recognize that John was prisoner on the Isle of Patmos during the reign of emperor Domitian, which was also historical.

Following the Scriptures as written makes recognizing the difference between Bible history and future prophetic events yet to come very easy. So how is the Ezekiel 12:21-28 passage different than Rev.1:3?

Simplicity in reading the Scriptures always... wins. The answer is simple, in Rev.1:3, there is no indicator those events given John would happen in his day. In the Ezekiel 12 warning there is more indicators as to the timing meant there, so that is what modified the meaning of "at hand" there. But there is nothing in Rev.1 to modify that adverb "at hand" for John's day. Jesus was saying, it's near to come. He didn't say when there. But, in the later Revelation chapters He did show events leading up to His return, and they parallel the Signs He gave us in His Olivet discourse leading up to the day of His 2nd coming, and He commanded us to watch those things. In that respect, those Signs He gave modifies His meaning of "at hand" in Rev.1:3.

So WHY aren't you focusing on those SIGNS He gave us leading up to His return in His Olivet discourse and in His Revelation, instead of only focusing on the adverb 'near' ("at hand" in Rev.1:3)? You want to know how 'near' ("at hand") those things coming are, then focus on those SIGNS He commanded us to watch!

No, dpr, that's not true that I don't post scripture with the points I'm making.  I usually try to post the appropriate REFERENCES, with maybe a short phrase or two to jog people's memories as to the verse's content.  That's because I am charitably assuming that most on this website are familiar with the verses, or are studious enough to look them up themselves without my having to copy the entire verse for them - one cell phone finger tap at a time.

When you creatively redefine what "AT HAND" means in Revelation, without comparing it to how God already defined it in Ezekiel for you, that is being inconsistent.  The definition of "AT HAND" doesn't change from the OT to the NT.  And besides this phrase, John deliberately used a variety of other imminent terms, just to make sure that there was no doubt as to his meaning.  ("Quickly", "about to",  the Rev. 17 sixth King that "IS" in power as John wrote, as well as the Scarlet Beast that "IS NOT" in existence as he was writing.)

If effect, you are doing the exact same thing as robycop3.  Both of you look FIRST at the signs  given - decide that they have to be describing the end of human history on this planet according to an arbitrary decision based on your own impressions, and THEN you use those personal impressions to determine that the "AT HAND" time limitation can't possibly mean exactly what it says about the time being in John's days.  This is what can be termed a "bass ackward" way of interpreting scripture.

And by the way, John was on the Isle of Patmos where he was sent by order of emperor NERO, (not Domitian) according to the ancient Syriac Peshitta title page.  This dates Revelation's imminent prophecies to a time contemporary with the emperor Nero's reign.

: 3 Resurrections  Wed Apr 08, 2020 - 01:51:41
No, dpr, that's not true that I don't post scripture with the points I'm making.  I usually try to post the appropriate REFERENCES, with maybe a short phrase or two to jog people's memories as to the verse's content.  That's because I am charitably assuming that most on this website are familiar with the verses, or are studious enough to look them up themselves without my having to copy the entire verse for them - one cell phone finger tap at a time.

When you creatively redefine what "AT HAND" means in Revelation, without comparing it to how God already defined it in Ezekiel for you, that is being inconsistent.  The definition of "AT HAND" doesn't change from the OT to the NT.  And besides this phrase, John deliberately used a variety of other imminent terms, just to make sure that there was no doubt as to his meaning.  ("Quickly", "about to",  the Rev. 17 sixth King that "IS" in power as John wrote, as well as the Scarlet Beast that "IS NOT" in existence as he was writing.)

If effect, you are doing the exact same thing as robycop3.  Both of you look FIRST at the signs  given - decide that they have to be describing the end of human history on this planet according to an arbitrary decision based on your own impressions, and THEN you use those personal impressions to determine that the "AT HAND" time limitation can't possibly mean exactly what it says about the time being in John's days.  This is what can be termed a "bass ackward" way of interpreting scripture.

And by the way, John was on the Isle of Patmos where he was sent by order of emperor NERO, (not Domitian) according to the ancient Syriac Peshitta title page.  This dates Revelation's imminent prophecies to a time contemporary with the emperor Nero's reign.

Domitian was emperor when John was on Patmos. Emperor Marcus Cocceius Nerva succeeded after Domitian was assassinated, and it was Nerva who released Apostle John from his imprisonment. So by the way, your history tale is inaccurate.

I didn't redefine the "at hand" meaning. It's only the Greek word for 'near' in the NT manuscripts. It's your Preterist theories that try to redefine it. The Ezek.12 case defines exactly the 'when' it was meant. Rev.1 does not, but instead obviously defaults to the Signs Jesus gave in Revelation. And obviously, those Signs are meant for the final generation of His coming. No brainer.

: dpr  Wed Apr 08, 2020 - 12:56:47
Domitian was emperor when John was on Patmos. Emperor Marcus Cocceius Nerva succeeded after Domitian was assassinated, and it was Nerva who released Apostle John from his imprisonment. So by the way, your history tale is inaccurate.

I didn't redefine the "at hand" meaning. It's only the Greek word for 'near' in the NT manuscripts. It's your Preterist theories that try to redefine it. The Ezek.12 case defines exactly the 'when' it was meant. Rev.1 does not, but instead obviously defaults to the Signs Jesus gave in Revelation. And obviously, those Signs are meant for the final generation of His coming. No brainer.

Wrong. Nero was emperor. You are preaching to a dispensationalist choir.

Start studying "end times" from the preterist perspective.

Look at that no-brainer you have there... was Jesus speaking to and about a final generation to the apostles in front of Him?!

  No, Nero was dead by then,(D. AD 68) & Domitian was Caesar AD 81-96 Nero had Paul beheaded, but he did not deal with John. Domitian was known for exiling "minor" offenders to Patmos & other then-bleak isles.

  Yes, look at events through a preterist view & get all mixed-up.

: lea  Wed Apr 08, 2020 - 15:46:16
Wrong. Nero was emperor. You are preaching to a dispensationalist choir.

Start studying "end times" from the preterist perspective.

Look at that no-brainer you have there... was Jesus speaking to and about a final generation to the apostles in front of Him?!

Robycop3 is right on. Domitian was emperor during Apostle John's imprisonment on the Isle of Patmos. Nerva was the next emperor who released John.

You should look at history from a non-Preterist viewpoint, because Preterism tries to re-write history in order to serve their false doctrines of the 'synagogue of Satan' that are against Christ and His Church.

The Hieromartyr Antipas, a disciple of the holy Apostle John the Theologian, was bishop of the Church of Pergamum during the reign of the emperor Nero (54-68).

During these times, everyone who would not offer sacrifice to the idols lived under threat of either exile or execution by order of the emperor. On the island of Patmos (in the Aegean Sea) the holy Apostle John the Theologian was imprisoned, he to whom the Lord revealed the future judgment of the world and of Holy Church.

"And to the angel of the Church of Pergamum write: the words of him who has the sharp two-edged sword. I know where you live, where the throne of Satan is, and you cleave unto My Name, and have not renounced My faith, even in those days when Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwells" (Rev 2:12-13).
https://www.oca.org/saints/lives/2014/04/11/101052-hieromartyr-antipas-bishop-of-pergamum-and-disciple-of-saint-joh

  So, since Antipas was dead when Jesus gave the message to John, the message was after the fact, and most evidence points to the time as being late in Domitian's reign, in the 90s AD.

: robycop3  Thu Apr 09, 2020 - 17:27:27
  So, since Antipas was dead when Jesus gave the message to John, the message was after the fact, and most evidence points to the time as being late in Domitian's reign, in the 90s AD.

Rev.11 shows the Temple in Jerusalem standing.  There was no temple to write about in AD 90's!

Your pessimistic futurism will never work.

: lea  Fri Apr 10, 2020 - 14:32:55
Rev.11 shows the Temple in Jerusalem standing.  There was no temple to write about in AD 90's!

Your pessimistic futurism will never work.

  No, that is a future temple. The 2 witnesses haven't yet come, of course. All this will occur after the 'beast' comes to power.

  The measurements of the old temple were well-known to the Jews, even after its destruction.

: robycop3  Fri Apr 10, 2020 - 17:50:38
  No, that is a future temple. The 2 witnesses haven't yet come, of course. All this will occur after the 'beast' comes to power.

  The measurements of the old temple were well-known to the Jews, even after its destruction.

Why do you think there are no high priests in Israel today? Because they cannot prove their lineage from the 12 tribes of Israel, namely the tribe of Levi. 

: lea  Fri Apr 10, 2020 - 20:05:34
Why do you think there are no high priests in Israel today? Because they cannot prove their lineage from the 12 tribes of Israel, namely the tribe of Levi.

  No, it's because there's no temple. And it's doubtful the last HPs were actual descendants of Aaron anyway. The last one, Phannias ben Samuel, died fighting the Romans in AD70.

  When the new temple is built, I don't know how the Jews will do two things: light its fire with fire from God, or choose a HP. But I'm sure they'll come up with SOMETHING, right or wrong.

  But we mustn't forget that this won't actually be a temple of GOD, as JESUS will be left outta the equation, but the Jews & most of the world will believe it is. it'll be a place where the Old Covenant rites will be performed.

: robycop3  Sat Apr 11, 2020 - 07:43:47
  No, it's because there's no temple. And it's doubtful the last HPs were actual descendants of Aaron anyway. The last one, Phannias ben Samuel, died fighting the Romans in AD70.

  When the new temple is built, I don't know how the Jews will do two things: light its fire with fire from God, or choose a HP. But I'm sure they'll come up with SOMETHING, right or wrong.

  But we mustn't forget that this won't actually be a temple of GOD, as JESUS will be left outta the equation, but the Jews & most of the world will believe it is. it'll be a place where the Old Covenant rites will be performed.

Where did you get this "we" from? 

: lea  Fri Apr 17, 2020 - 18:49:16
Where did you get this "we" from?

  From REAL Christians, one of which is I.

: robycop3  Sat May 02, 2020 - 13:44:50
  From REAL Christians, one of which is I.

That proves it, ha! You have no mind of your own.

: lea  Mon May 11, 2020 - 14:59:24
That proves it, ha! You have no mind of your own.

S P A M

: robycop3  Tue May 12, 2020 - 05:08:15
S P A M

Pokemon mon

: lea  Mon May 18, 2020 - 18:46:29
Pokemon mon

Better find him. He might teach you something.

: robycop3  Thu May 21, 2020 - 05:02:23
Better find him. He might teach you something.

Never have anything good to say. You are a sad Christian. It's obvious.

: lea  Thu May 21, 2020 - 13:35:23
Never have anything good to say. You are a sad Christian. It's obvious.

But, unlike you, I BELIEVE GOD'S WORD.

: robycop3  Thu May 21, 2020 - 05:02:23
Better find him. He might teach you something.

Best find some "fruit of the Spirit" because you demonstrate none of them in your posts!

: lea  Sat May 30, 2020 - 14:12:02
Best find some "fruit of the Spirit" because you demonstrate none of them in your posts!

I have some fruit of the Holy Spirit cuz I BELIEVE GOD'S WORD, something you badly need to start doing.

: robycop3  Sat May 30, 2020 - 17:39:22
I have some fruit of the Holy Spirit cuz I BELIEVE GOD'S WORD, something you badly need to start doing.

Gal5:22,23  22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, and self-control.

You demonstrate none of these. You are a poor Christian!

: lea  Sat May 30, 2020 - 20:09:04

Gal5:22,23  22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, and self-control.

You demonstrate none of these. You are a poor Christian!

  But YOU demonstrate UNBELIEF of God's word by making up new interps of it.

: robycop3  Sun May 31, 2020 - 05:31:38
  But YOU demonstrate UNBELIEF of God's word by making up new interps of it.

"interps" of it?  Are you out of energy or something that you don't even do the work of writing well?

: lea  Sun May 31, 2020 - 13:10:16
"interps" of it?  Are you out of energy or something that you don't even do the work of writing well?

Again, you try to change the subject, as you CANNOT prove your pret trash.

: robycop3  Sun May 31, 2020 - 13:58:22
Again, you try to change the subject, as you CANNOT prove your pret trash.

Matt.24:
The Great Tribulation

15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the [c]elect's sake those days will be shortened.

23 "Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.

26 "Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
The Coming of the Son of Man

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Oh, they must've died before they could record it!  ::amen!::

  Nupe ! It's still future.

: robycop3  Sun May 31, 2020 - 14:57:19
  Nupe ! It's still future.

That's all you can say isn't it?

Now get up and go fix something!  rofl

: lea  Sun May 31, 2020 - 15:29:14
That's all you can say isn't it?

Now get up and go fix something!  rofl

  Can you prove it wrong ? You've done a poor job at it so far.

: robycop3  Mon Jun 01, 2020 - 04:54:40
  Can you prove it wrong ? You've done a poor job at it so far.

Oh, what a sad jerk. Never does anything but rant.
Why don't you get off the Preterist subforum if it perturbs you so much?

Where's your self-respect?

: lea  Mon Jun 01, 2020 - 20:39:51
Oh, what a sad jerk. Never does anything but rant.
Why don't you get off the Preterist subforum if it perturbs you so much?

Where's your self-respect?

  More blather, no PROOF.

And another thread 7 years old

: Rella  Tue Jun 02, 2020 - 19:37:56
And another thread 7 years old

That's right. You couldn't beat it then either.

We had more Preterists then , you know,and I know. Now you try to attack Preterists personally because you see that there's only maybe 2 or so now.

You try to take advantage of the numbers because you desperately need attention. It's apparent how you just want to be #1 with the last word.

If you're so upset about Preterism, why don't you stick to the end times forum and post your last day madness proof there?

I challenge you. Can you start to control yourself in your posts here?

  Ever wondered WHY there so few prets now. Most likely, because they realized preterism is false, and abandoned it.

: robycop3  Thu Jun 04, 2020 - 04:47:26
  Ever wondered WHY there so few prets now. Most likely, because they realized preterism is false, and abandoned it.

Notice how more than 2 Preterists are whipping your butt on another site?

Wow, your photo is hard to look at - bald and fat!

: lea  Thu Jun 04, 2020 - 17:04:49
Notice how more than 2 Preterists are whipping your butt on another site?

Wow, your photo is hard to look at - bald and fat!

  No, they're not. Like you, they can't provide any proof to sustain their jive.

  And I shave my head, & have lost some 40 lb. since that pic was made 5 years ago. Loox don't matter, anyhow.

: robycop3  Thu Jun 04, 2020 - 17:39:11
  No, they're not. Like you, they can't provide any proof to sustain their jive.

  And I shave my head, & have lost some 40 lb. since that pic was made 5 years ago. Loox don't matter, anyhow.

Your just lying again. When several Preterists ask you to prove your view with Scripture- you can't.

You just say the same, ugly things you say here. "He has returned yet!" I thought fat people were supposed to be jolly and have a sense of humor?!

They are on to you.  You read like the fool you are and their beating you up for your lack of any exegesis!

So you try to come here because you are so used to women bossing you around that you get your jollies off doing it back!

Looks don't count only if you have a beautiful soul..

: lea  Thu Jun 04, 2020 - 18:04:47
Your just lying again. When several Preterists ask you to prove your view with Scripture- you can't.

You just say the same, ugly things you say here. "He has returned yet!" I thought fat people were supposed to be jolly and have a sense of humor?!

They are on to you.  You read like the fool you are and their beating you up for your lack of any exegesis!

So you try to come here because you are so used to women bossing you around that you get your jollies off doing it back!

Looks don't count only if you have a beautiful soul..

"WHAT A MAROON !"-Bugs Bunny

  Like a typical believer of false doctrine, you attack the messenger insteada the message.(I don't know nor care what YOU look like !)  That's because you can't prove a word you say in support of pretetism. You say I repeat stuff, whyle YOU keep saying "it HAS happened", but can't prove a word of it.

  As for prets on other boards, they're just as wrong & deluded as YOU are.

  Keep insulting me all you wish, as you can't prove THEM, either. it simply shows other readers how erudite you aren't, & shows them what I've been saying all along, that prets can't prove one word of their jive. YOU are the liar here!