I've heard this gripe from so many traditionalist types who just love to pretend that feminism doesn't exist or doesn't have billions of dollars in taxpayer funding, but I thought I'd share this for anybody with an interest in getting themselves educated on reality:
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/fallout-from-campus-sexual-assault-hysteria-college-men-now-suspicious-of-women/article/2552346 (http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/fallout-from-campus-sexual-assault-hysteria-college-men-now-suspicious-of-women/article/2552346)
"This is about men actually avoiding contact with women because they're afraid a simple kiss or date could lead to a sexual assault accusation."
This is with regards to college campuses but a lot of this kind of thing happens outside of the college scene too.
Then they are clearly miXing with the wrong sort of women in the wrong places. Of course you are speaking of men in the world, and some men may hold onto something like that as an excuse as to why they dont want to pursue or commit to a woman(when it may be for other reasons).
Men still do pursue women of course, and thats why most people do either end up living with someone or getting married. It cant happen otherwise.
Also college life is VERY different from the real world and usually very immoral anyway.
^Men will protect themselves--and be extra careful and on guard when there's a lack of interest in their protection from others. And when it comes to issues like this, this is just one under a huge umbrella of issues that show how vulnerable a man is in a relationship (marriage or otherwise) with a woman today.
No matter how much you or anyone insists that social/legal vulnerabilities shouldn't have an impact on whether or not men pursue relationships with women, they do. Marriage rates are dropping drastically for a lot of other practical reasons.
I doubt you even read the article I posted to begin with, but just for your information, here are some examples of how such cases happen:
http://www.dadsrights.org/testimony-anne-p-mitchell-senate-education-committee-hearing-senator-de-leons-sb-967/ (http://www.dadsrights.org/testimony-anne-p-mitchell-senate-education-committee-hearing-senator-de-leons-sb-967/)
Excerpt:
"Tiffany H. wants you to know that "In our case, a drunk girl kissed and made advances toward our son. Our son told the girl "No"... 3 days later the accuser saw our son with his girlfriend – a girl he has dated since 2011 – and our son ignored the accuser. Later that evening our son was pulled into the security office at the university and our hell began. He was innocent. He passed a voluntary polygraph. The local law enforcement didn't prosecute. But still, our son lost his hopes, his dreams, and all he had worked for....he was expelled for sexual misconduct. This is what a preponderance of evidence standard, and the current interpretation of affirmative consent, will do – it will ruin innocent lives. Today our son is trying to put his life back together.. at 18 ½ years old. He suffers from nightmares, anxiety, post traumatic stress disorder, and has trust issues. He is working hard with a counselor to overcome the attack on him. The attack on his innocence. The attack on his reputation and good name. He will never be the same. Our family will never be the same."
The thing is that if men werent persuing women generally(not just in the colleges), then everyone would be single. Being that most people end up either married or in a relationship, there must be a whole lot of persuing going on.
The thing is that if men werent persuing women generally(not just in the colleges), then everyone would be single. Being that most people end up either married or in a relationship, there must be a whole lot of persuing going on.
Yes indeed, many people are still getting married or having relationships.
Marriage rates are nose diving, however. Many people gripe about the fact without bothering to get themselves informed, and come up with worthless criticisms. Many men are avoiding marriage because of the legal dangers in today's world, and that's a fact. Fewer and fewer men are choosing to ignore warnings that come from horror stories that reflect how unprotected a man is in today's world.
: Cally Mon Dec 15, 2014 - 12:51:02
The thing is that if men werent persuing women generally(not just in the colleges), then everyone would be single. Being that most people end up either married or in a relationship, there must be a whole lot of persuing going on.
Yes indeed, many people are still getting married or having relationships.
Marriage rates are nose diving, however. Many people gripe about the fact without bothering to get themselves informed, and come up with worthless criticisms. Many men are avoiding marriage because of the legal dangers in today's world, and that's a fact. Fewer and fewer men are choosing to ignore warnings that come from horror stories that reflect how unprotected a man is in today's world.
If marriage rates are dropping its because couples now live together more.
The people I know who are living together but not married(including many members of my own family) are because they dont see anything wrong with living together outside marriage anymore. They arent Christians so dont have that understanding of why its so important. However most live in relationships that last, usually end up in marriage at some point, often before children come along. I dont know any couples who arent getting married for the reasons you mention, or any single people who are avoiding marriage for those reasons either, in fact most really want to get married but just havent met the right person yet.
: chosenone Mon Dec 15, 2014 - 09:43:05
The thing is that if men werent pursuing women generally (not just in the colleges), then everyone would be single.
Is it unthinkable that a woman might pursue a man?
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Fri Dec 19, 2014 - 17:50:30
: chosenone Mon Dec 15, 2014 - 09:43:05
The thing is that if men werent pursuing women generally (not just in the colleges), then everyone would be single.
Is it unthinkable that a woman might pursue a man?
Have you not heard the old adage that a man chases after a woman until "she'' catches him.
The trouble is that the "Gloria Steinems" et al changed the rules around and it is all upside down.
I am truly sick of the change that has now trickled down into even the ads on TV.
Tide and others running ads showing "dad" taking care of the babies and kids and how best for them to do the laundry. No sign of a mom in sight.
What a double edged sword women created for themselves when they "demanded" the right to sexual freedom but now complain that men are too aggressive in that area.
Are women truly so stupid as to not know that men are wired differently then women and when they (women) set things in motion it is going to backfire at some point? You simply cannot light a match when there is dry wood around or at some point you will get burned.
Well, off my rant....
Anyway Wycliffes_Shillelagh, No it is not unthinkable at all, but the rules are different for each gender, or should be.
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Fri Dec 19, 2014 - 17:50:30
: chosenone Mon Dec 15, 2014 - 09:43:05
The thing is that if men werent pursuing women generally (not just in the colleges), then everyone would be single.
Is it unthinkable that a woman might pursue a man?
Not at all. It was I who contacted my husband first on the Christian dating site we were both on(he had only just joined), so in that sense I suppose it was initially me who did the chasing and made the first move, and by going onto dating sites women are being proactive of course.
I remember one lady who was on a dating site who made it clear that she would not contact a man, but he would have to contact her, and I thought that was a bit weird being that she had already made the first move by joining a dating site. I wonder if she ever met her guy?
Is it unthinkable that a woman might pursue a man?
A lot of traditionalists consider it a man's job to pursue a woman. I'm not sure I get it either, from a biblical standpoint. There's Ruth and Boaz, Isaac and Rebekah, and the fact the marriages are usually arranged in the larger face of history, and then there was Adam and Eve of course.
But in any case, they need to wake up and realize that every time a man does that he risks an accusation of sexual assault--a woman can accuse a man of that for absolutely any reason, and in college campuses, without any due process.
: Cally Fri Dec 19, 2014 - 22:45:57
Is it unthinkable that a woman might pursue a man?
A lot of traditionalists consider it a man's job to pursue a woman. I'm not sure I get it either, from a biblical standpoint. There's Ruth and Boaz, Isaac and Rebekah, and the fact the marriages are usually arranged in the larger face of history, and then there was Adam and Eve of course.
But in any case, they need to wake up and realize that every time a man does that he risks an accusation of sexual assault--a woman can accuse a man of that for absolutely any reason, and in college campuses, without any due process.
Does what, asks a girl out?
Does what, asks a girl out?
Chosenone I know you might find this rude, but if you're asking that, you haven't paid attention to anything at all that I've shown here. Colleges explicitly deny men any due process for accusations of sexual assault, and in general women's accusations against a man are automatically believed without proof.
: Cally Sat Dec 20, 2014 - 03:54:20
Does what, asks a girl out?
Chosenone I know you might find this rude, but if you're asking that, you haven't paid attention to anything at all that I've shown here. Colleges explicitly deny men any due process for accusations of sexual assault, and in general women's accusations against a man are automatically believed without proof.
However asking a lady out can not be mistaken for assault can it. Colleges and Unis are very sexually promiscous places sadly. However they dont always represent the real world outside.
However asking a lady out can not be mistaken for assault can it.
Forgive me, but you are still paying absolutely no attention to the sources I posted. A woman is free to define absolutely any behavior a man makes as sexual assault, legally, and have a man punished. And I mean anything. She can even make it up completely, and authorities will take her at her word. It's a hot-bed subject right now, as a matter of fact, that college men have been denied due process (fundamental human right) because of rape hysteria.
My comment to traditionalists is, stop making worthless criticisms about men pursuing women before you get to know the situations of those who you are criticizing. The phrase "be a man" actually belongs directed at those who are too cowardly to confront the existence of feminism and instead suppose they are guilt-free for laying abuse on men (young men especially) who are under attack for the manly behavior and/or results you want to see.
: Cally Sat Dec 20, 2014 - 05:01:02
However asking a lady out can not be mistaken for assault can it.
Forgive me, but you are still paying absolutely no attention to the sources I posted. A woman is free to define absolutely any behavior a man makes as sexual assault, legally, and have a man punished. And I mean anything. She can even make it up completely, and authorities will take her at her word. It's a hot-bed subject right now, as a matter of fact, that college men have been denied due process (fundamental human right) because of rape hysteria.
To sidestep the main subject of this thread a wee bit this is what bothers me about the entire women accusing men of sexual misconduct.
For example... look at Bill Cosby and the mess he is in.
Did he do something inappropriate with one or all of the accusing women?
Possibly. I was not there and have no first hand knowledge. HOWEVER.........
What prompted these women to come forward NOW. Twenty years later and even forty years later?
NO one, I repeat no one knows the truth. Not even these women because it is entirely possible if the accusations are true that he at some point did truly repent and turned himself around.
I would like to know why it was that these women would permits themselves to be in the presence of any man alone. Especially in a dressing room or a hotel room.
I have not heard anyone screaming out that HE took their virginity.
That means that they were not so lily white and pure themselves.
So I wonder why come forward now, when it is past the statute of limitations for rape, unless they just want their 15 minutes of fame....
What a sad time we live in.
Rella:
Yes, there's that issue, and did you hear about the infamous Rolling Stone article? The rape story that turned out to be a total falsehood reported as news before anyone did any factchecking? The (female) dean decided to ban fraternities because of it.
But yes, there was Cosby, and it happened with Herman Cain.
I have seen MANY stories about women's accusations against men (of ALL types) automatically believed, until blatantly obvious evidence like recordings proved them wrong. Their ab abilities to ruin a man's life at a whim (a reflection of our overall culture) is just appalling.
Apart from the outright malicious parties, though, I am fed-up with the "man up" traditionalists more than anything. They demonstrate cowardice after they're about their list of "be a man" demands but they don't demonstrate a protective attitude for those from whom they expect results, results, results. /soapbox
I'd also think that it's in women's interests to get involved too. if they have notions of wanting men to perform their old-school "masculine" duties. Thank you GOD that some women do!!! And I've found them online and I'm profoundly blessed to know several personally. Part of the courage of being a Godly woman is to face the same fight a man is facing. I love those angels. ::smile::
A lot of men I know don't pursue because of the mind games women play. The very idea that women act as though it's beneath them to "pursue" a man or show interest. We watch "Everybody Loves Raymond" and how awful his wife treats him, how it's presented as though sex with him is a chore that she has little interest in and that he isn't good looking or because he's a man in general. He as a man just isn't worthy of physical desire. What man would want that? If it were reversed, women wouldn't want it either.
Men see women expecting the man to pay for everything but women want to have him support their careers. The reason men used to pay for things is not because they had a penis. It was because the physical, outdoor work required then was so difficult that women didn't work. Men had the money. Now days more women finish college than men (but still seem to act as though manual labor is beneath them, especially as a potential career).
Women make money. I dated a girl in college whose daddy sent her close to 2 thousand a month which was for way more than just her needs. They were wealthy. I had a job and squeezed out about 300 a month that I did use for my needs. She knew all that and had more money than she knew what to do with but still expected me to pay for her whenever we went out. It was like I had to pay for the privilege of being around her. That's just one example of how many women treat men as though they (men) are beneath them. Men take all the risk of rejection and are expected to keep risking it even into marriage.
I'm pretty bitter. I, though, am one of the blessed ones in that I married a great woman who pursues me sexually, emotionally and otherwise. We pursue each other because neither is less than the other. We both deserve pursuit. More women should be like her.
Amen, tennman, but that's the paradox of feminism itself: even as more women prove their "independence," it still boils down to showing up on men's doorstep to fix their problems, including enabling the world to be this generous cradle in which "equality" is feasible.
But again, today, the providers are in trouble from being so taxed. If women are equal, indeed, can't they do some of the rescuing? I wouldn't mind that in any case. Just look at Proverbs 31:20 about the woman of noble character: "she extends her arms to the needy." What, and a husband is excluded from that if he's the one who's needy?
And then yet again are these cowardly traditionalists: "a man should be the sole provider." Feminism seeks out and destroys men's material success so women can take men's places, and they succeed! Get with it!!!
And credit where it's due: the true Godly women that I've been SO BLESSED to find--just to behold them--are spectacular in their love.
But yeah, it's cowardly and it's a hate-on. Likewise, I think the "men should pursue women" is what you say, and to suggest that the woman should have all the choosing leverage.
Cally and tennman,
I agree with a lot of of what you say.
However I draw the line at a man asking a woman out to dinner and then sits there and divides the bill so she pays her share.
If I am invited out... by anyone, then I expect "to be treated."
If I do the inviting then I expect to pay.
And so it is not all one sided if I am treated I will counter at a later time, on my nickle.
For a while I was on one of the dating site forums and I got quite an education of what is expected ..... today.
If a woman does not want to go to bed with her date they ( the men) expect to go dutch treat, if she does not pick up the check.
And one woman confessed she always insists on paying her way so the bed thing is not expected unless she wants it.
The same held true on the millionaire sites as well... so I stopped.
No matter what, and the fact that women are earning more then in times gone past
they still do not earn as much as their male counterparts.
Couple that with their personal expenses of a wide variety of wardrobe, hair and makeup, women in general do not always have the funds necessary for the dating scene.
I am too old fashioned. I always have believed the art of being a woman was to bring out the best in a man.
But as one 40 something man told me in a forum when I complained that I still wanted to be on that pedestal and hated to be knocked off and onto my back that,
that is just the way it is and it is not going to change.
So, hating to admit it, I do feel that too much of the sexual abuse that was the gist of the OPs initial topic is of women's own making... and no wonder men are avoiding it.
I always have believed the art of being a woman was to bring out the best in a man.
Rella:
There is indeed an art of being a woman involving bringing out the best in a man. And it's probably right to say that it's old-fashioned. I appreciate a lot of what you're saying.
Here's my thought for you, just to consider. Look at the wife of Proverbs 31. The woman is so busy it scares me. A man is busy too.
What's the big fat hairy deal which gender's work yields the paycheck?At the very least, surely you can acknowledge the fact that feminism is, and always has been, about replacing men in the workforce with women. Despite how much money women make these days, feminists' latest gripe is women being a minority in STEM fields, which can also be phrased: too many men are succeeding compared to women!
So can you acknowledge, then, that expecting the man to be the money-maker, regardless of how proper the situation is or not, is not something that will be doable for many men out there in today's world? It may not be what you want, but can you acknowledge that we have to live with that reality?
: Cally Sat Dec 20, 2014 - 13:12:13
I always have believed the art of being a woman was to bring out the best in a man.
Rella:
So can you acknowledge, then, that expecting the man to be the money-maker, regardless of how proper the situation is or not, is not something that will be doable for many men out there in today's world? It may not be what you want, but can you acknowledge that we have to live with that reality?
Yep, I fully agree with you, and you are correct it is not what I want.
I also know it take 2 paychecks, for the most part, to make it work today.
But I still will cringe at the ads showing men changing diapers, doing laundry and housework as if they are content in the roles of Mr. Mom....
And I detest "women" interviewers in a man's sport such as football.
I hate the ads that show a man wanting to remove his body hair, and especially the one that has that one woman...(?) exclaiming how she "loves a close shave......"
(The man thing bothers me cause I personally like a hairy chest on a man... but of course that has to go if you are going to cover yourself with all those tattoos...LOL
Men and women are different... Praise God for that.
But each has their own God given abilities and strengths ...
Alas I am rambling again.
^Rella, I'm on the same page, don't worry. ;-)
Thanks a lot for your thoughts.
: Cally Sat Dec 20, 2014 - 13:12:13
I always have believed the art of being a woman was to bring out the best in a man.
Rella:
There is indeed an art of being a woman involving bringing out the best in a man. And it's probably right to say that it's old-fashioned. I appreciate a lot of what you're saying.
Here's my thought for you, just to consider. Look at the wife of Proverbs 31. The woman is so busy it scares me. A man is busy too. What's the big fat hairy deal which gender's work yields the paycheck?
At the very least, surely you can acknowledge the fact that feminism is, and always has been, about replacing men in the workforce with women. Despite how much money women make these days, feminists' latest gripe is women being a minority in STEM fields, which can also be phrased: too many men are succeeding compared to women!
So can you acknowledge, then, that expecting the man to be the money-maker, regardless of how proper the situation is or not, is not something that will be doable for many men out there in today's world? It may not be what you want, but can you acknowledge that we have to live with that reality?
In my case DH payed when we went out as I was a very hard up single mum of three, and his income then was loads more than mine. Had he been out of work, for example, and I had more money, then I am sure that I would have paid.
: Cally Sat Dec 20, 2014 - 13:12:13
I always have believed the art of being a woman was to bring out the best in a man.
Rella:
There is indeed an art of being a woman involving bringing out the best in a man. And it's probably right to say that it's old-fashioned. I appreciate a lot of what you're saying.
Here's my thought for you, just to consider. Look at the wife of Proverbs 31. The woman is so busy it scares me. A man is busy too. What's the big fat hairy deal which gender's work yields the paycheck?
At the very least, surely you can acknowledge the fact that feminism is, and always has been, about replacing men in the workforce with women. Despite how much money women make these days, feminists' latest gripe is women being a minority in STEM fields, which can also be phrased: too many men are succeeding compared to women!
So can you acknowledge, then, that expecting the man to be the money-maker, regardless of how proper the situation is or not, is not something that will be doable for many men out there in today's world? It may not be what you want, but can you acknowledge that we have to live with that reality?
In the UK very few young couples can afford to live unless they both work, even after children, which is sad for the children but its a fact of life unless you are either on benefits(and therefore have your rent and other things paid for) or very well off. All of the young couples/parents in my family both work and earn similar salaries to each other.
However some Christian men I know want to be the provider for the wife and family, they see it as part of their godly role, but it depends on their circumstances as to where they can afford do that or not.
: Rella Sat Dec 20, 2014 - 14:16:25
: Cally Sat Dec 20, 2014 - 13:12:13
I always have believed the art of being a woman was to bring out the best in a man.
Rella:
So can you acknowledge, then, that expecting the man to be the money-maker, regardless of how proper the situation is or not, is not something that will be doable for many men out there in today's world? It may not be what you want, but can you acknowledge that we have to live with that reality?
Yep, I fully agree with you, and you are correct it is not what I want.
I also know it take 2 paychecks, for the most part, to make it work today.
But I still will cringe at the ads showing men changing diapers, doing laundry and housework as if they are content in the roles of Mr. Mom....
And I detest "women" interviewers in a man's sport such as football.
I hate the ads that show a man wanting to remove his body hair, and especially the one that has that one woman...(?) exclaiming how she "loves a close shave......"
(The man thing bothers me cause I personally like a hairy chest on a man... but of course that has to go if you are going to cover yourself with all those tattoos...LOL
Men and women are different... Praise God for that.
But each has their own God given abilities and strengths ...
Alas I am rambling again.
I have no issue at all with women being interested in working in sport, its not a male only thing, and I love to see men involved in the care of their babies and children. If both work then both should share the care of their children and looking after the home. Most young parents I know are a team, who work together and dont see the need or the point of specifying certain jobs for men and certain ones for women, but either do what needs to be done at that time, or they each do the jobs they are best at.
I have seen the situation where men whose wife's have died after 30 or 40 or more years of marriage, or whose wives fall ill, cant even cook a meal or iron a shirt. Crazy. ::frown::Thats why I am a great advocate for young people to leave home and be independant and look after themselves for some time way before they get married.
: tennman Sat Dec 20, 2014 - 10:16:22
A lot of men I know don't pursue because of the mind games women play. The very idea that women act as though it's beneath them to "pursue" a man or show interest. We watch "Everybody Loves Raymond" and how awful his wife treats him, how it's presented as though sex with him is a chore that she has little interest in and that he isn't good looking or because he's a man in general. He as a man just isn't worthy of physical desire. What man would want that? If it were reversed, women wouldn't want it either.
Men see women expecting the man to pay for everything but women want to have him support their careers. The reason men used to pay for things is not because they had a penis. It was because the physical, outdoor work required then was so difficult that women didn't work. Men had the money. Now days more women finish college than men (but still seem to act as though manual labor is beneath them, especially as a potential career).
Women make money. I dated a girl in college whose daddy sent her close to 2 thousand a month which was for way more than just her needs. They were wealthy. I had a job and squeezed out about 300 a month that I did use for my needs. She knew all that and had more money than she knew what to do with but still expected me to pay for her whenever we went out. It was like I had to pay for the privilege of being around her. That's just one example of how many women treat men as though they (men) are beneath them. Men take all the risk of rejection and are expected to keep risking it even into marriage.
I'm pretty bitter. I, though, am one of the blessed ones in that I married a great woman who pursues me sexually, emotionally and otherwise. We pursue each other because neither is less than the other. We both deserve pursuit. More women should be like her.
I think that Christian men need to be careful where they look for a lady. Look in a church or a place where Christian ladies will be, and get to know them before asking them out. There are many lovely single Christian ladies out there in their 20's and 30's, and far too few Christian men, I know quite a few myself who would make great wives and mothers, but there are no men for them. There have always been more women than men in churches here, at least as long as I have been alive.
: Rella Sat Dec 20, 2014 - 08:04:56
: Cally Sat Dec 20, 2014 - 05:01:02
However asking a lady out can not be mistaken for assault can it.
Forgive me, but you are still paying absolutely no attention to the sources I posted. A woman is free to define absolutely any behavior a man makes as sexual assault, legally, and have a man punished. And I mean anything. She can even make it up completely, and authorities will take her at her word. It's a hot-bed subject right now, as a matter of fact, that college men have been denied due process (fundamental human right) because of rape hysteria.
To sidestep the main subject of this thread a wee bit this is what bothers me about the entire women accusing men of sexual misconduct.
For example... look at Bill Cosby and the mess he is in.
Did he do something inappropriate with one or all of the accusing women?
Possibly. I was not there and have no first hand knowledge. HOWEVER.........
What prompted these women to come forward NOW. Twenty years later and even forty years later?
NO one, I repeat no one knows the truth. Not even these women because it is entirely possible if the accusations are true that he at some point did truly repent and turned himself around.
I would like to know why it was that these women would permits themselves to be in the presence of any man alone. Especially in a dressing room or a hotel room.
I have not heard anyone screaming out that HE took their virginity.
That means that they were not so lily white and pure themselves.
So I wonder why come forward now, when it is past the statute of limitations for rape, unless they just want their 15 minutes of fame....
What a sad time we live in.
There have been a few cases here in the UK recently involving very well know men where women have come forward many years later and it turned out that the man was guilty of serious prolonged and severe sexual abuse over a very long period of time of many very young women and in many cases children.
Some did come forward at the time but weren't believed, other cases of abuse involving famous people in the establishment were covered up by those in power in the 60's and 70's, who ordered the police not to investigate it and to even get rid of any evidence. Many knew that no one would believe them over the word of a famous man, and were actually told by the men that there was no point in them saying anything as who would believe them? Yet others were only children who rarely tell about abuse anyway because their blame themselves. Many told no one, and have only now had the courage to do so knowing that others victims have come forward, and always thought they were the only one. Some of the men are now in jail, and others sadly are no longer alive to face the justice that was due to them, however they will now be suffering Gods judgement.
Dont dismiss the testimony of people just because they didnt appear to come forward at the time.
In my case DH payed when we went out as I was a very hard up single mum of three, and his income then was loads more than mine. Had he been out of work, for example, and I had more money, then I am sure that I would have paid.
That seems sensible. Somehow I just remembered a Japanese friend I made (before he left back for Japan). He insisted on paying my way at dinner, and said that in Japan it is customary for the older person to pay for the younger even when the younger person outranks the older. Traditions, traditions . . . :\
There have been a few cases here in the UK recently involving very well know men where women have come forward many years later and it turned out that the man was guilty of serious prolonged and severe sexual abuse over a very long period of time of many very young women and in many cases children.
Some did come forward at the time but weren't believed, other cases of abuse involving famous people in the establishment were covered up by those in power who ordered the police not to investigate it and to even get rid of any evidence. Many knew that no one would believe them over the word of a famous man, and were actually told by the men that there was no point in them saying anything as who would believe them? Yet others were only children who rarely tell about abuse anyway because their blame themselves. Many told no one, and have only now had the courage to do so knowing that others victims have come forward, and always thought they were the only one. Some of the men are now in jail, and others sadly are no longer alive to face the justice that was due to them, but will now be suffering Gods judgement.
I don't know the circumstances surrounding the cases you mention, but the problem is that the accused has a right to be presumed innocent until PROVEN guilty. It's not good that some who are guilty go unpunished, but isn't it at least as horrible if an innocent person is punished? That's the rule of presumption of innocence, with the burden of proof on the accuser. Men's BASIC human right to due process and presumption of innocence is under attack.
Speaking of Cosby, and MANY men, all it took was accusations and absolutely nothing more to do incredible damage to them. Whether he is guilty or not, it is very evil that a woman should have that kind of power to ruin a man at a whim like that, but that's what they have. Thankfully there are women who are against that reality--some women lie about rape (I read an article detailing cases of it) or other kinds of abuse for a variety of motives, but the real point is the profound violation of a man's basic human rights.
: Cally Sat Dec 20, 2014 - 16:37:27
There have been a few cases here in the UK recently involving very well know men where women have come forward many years later and it turned out that the man was guilty of serious prolonged and severe sexual abuse over a very long period of time of many very young women and in many cases children.
Some did come forward at the time but weren't believed, other cases of abuse involving famous people in the establishment were covered up by those in power who ordered the police not to investigate it and to even get rid of any evidence. Many knew that no one would believe them over the word of a famous man, and were actually told by the men that there was no point in them saying anything as who would believe them? Yet others were only children who rarely tell about abuse anyway because their blame themselves. Many told no one, and have only now had the courage to do so knowing that others victims have come forward, and always thought they were the only one. Some of the men are now in jail, and others sadly are no longer alive to face the justice that was due to them, but will now be suffering Gods judgement.
I don't know the circumstances surrounding the cases you mention, but the problem is that the accused has a right to be presumed innocent until PROVEN guilty. It's not good that some who are guilty go unpunished, but isn't it at least as horrible if an innocent person is punished? That's the rule of presumption of innocence, with the burden of proof on the accuser. Men's BASIC human right to due process and presumption of innocence is under attack.
Speaking of Cosby, and MANY men, all it took was accusations and absolutely nothing more to do incredible damage to them. Whether he is guilty or not, it is very evil that a woman should have that kind of power to ruin a man at a whim like that, but that's what they have. Thankfully there are women who are against that reality--some women lie about rape (I read an article detailing cases of it) or other kinds of abuse for a variety of motives, but the real point is the profound violation of a man's basic human rights.
yes a few women do that, but the amount of abuse that has been uncovered in recent years that happened in the 60's to 80's is shocking. Hopefully Bill will get his opportunity in court, but of course he is very rich so will have far better lawyers that any women will have, so may get off anyway even if he is guilty. Thats happened before of course.
yes a few women do that, but the amount of abuse that has been uncovered in recent years that happened in the 60's to 80's is shocking. Hopefully Bill will get his opportunity in court, but of course he is very rich so will have far better lawyers that any women will have, so may get off anyway even if he is guilty. Thats happened before of course.
Many men have also come out of prison after many years, sometimes decades, after a false accusation was finally proven false by blatant evidence. And the problem is obvious: her testimony was automatically believed with no proof.
Cosby is ALREADY suffering before being proven guilty in court or anything. I'm not saying he shouldn't if he's actually guilty, but the "innocent until proven guilty" is not working in practice in the "public court" as it were.
Women can be as indifferent about the suffering of men as they want, but, such as in this case, it means that men would be well-advised to beware of that threat and think an extra ten times about approaching or trusting women. To me, the offensive part is just that: the indifference itself.
Part of the problem is that false accusers usually receive no accountability for their actions. Those that do are the exception instead of the rule.
Now if they were to get the same jail terms/punishment that they were trying to inflict upon the innocent then we might see some equality.
Sure there are punitive measures for purgery. ...but again not usually enforced.
Part of the problem is that false accusers usually receive no accountability for their actions. Those that do are the exception instead of the rule.
Now if they were to get the same jail terms/punishment that they were trying to inflict upon the innocent then we might see some equality.
Sure there are punitive measures for purgery. ...but again not usually enforced.
It's true, but I really think the bigger problem is clearly that a man's well-being and protection are grossly undervalued. It's true false accusers don't get sufficient punishment, but even women who commit crimes against men of the exact same kind likewise almost always get a tiny fraction of the penalty that men do.
: JohnDB Sat Dec 20, 2014 - 17:44:17
Part of the problem is that false accusers usually receive no accountability for their actions. Those that do are the exception instead of the rule.
Now if they were to get the same jail terms/punishment that they were trying to inflict upon the innocent then we might see some equality.
Sure there are punitive measures for purgery. ...but again not usually enforced.
There have been some women in the UK who were jailed for falsely accusing a man of rape. Quite right too.
: Cally Sat Dec 20, 2014 - 16:51:04
yes a few women do that, but the amount of abuse that has been uncovered in recent years that happened in the 60's to 80's is shocking. Hopefully Bill will get his opportunity in court, but of course he is very rich so will have far better lawyers that any women will have, so may get off anyway even if he is guilty. Thats happened before of course.
Many men have also come out of prison after many years, sometimes decades, after a false accusation was finally proven false by blatant evidence. And the problem is obvious: her testimony was automatically believed with no proof.
Cosby is ALREADY suffering before being proven guilty in court or anything. I'm not saying he shouldn't if he's actually guilty, but the "innocent until proven guilty" is not working in practice in the "public court" as it were.
Women can be as indifferent about the suffering of men as they want, but, such as in this case, it means that men would be well-advised to beware of that threat and think an extra ten times about approaching or trusting women. To me, the offensive part is just that: the indifference itself.
There have also been 3 or 4 cases here involving famous men which have been thrown out because of lack of proof or evidence despite a woman's testimony, so the word of one lady isnt enough, and if she is telling the truth she will never get her justice.
I think its highly unlikely that Bill is innocent to be honest.
: Cally Sat Dec 20, 2014 - 16:37:27
There have been a few cases here in the UK recently involving very well know men where women have come forward many years later and it turned out that the man was guilty of serious prolonged and severe sexual abuse over a very long period of time of many very young women and in many cases children.
Some did come forward at the time but weren't believed, other cases of abuse involving famous people in the establishment were covered up by those in power who ordered the police not to investigate it and to even get rid of any evidence. Many knew that no one would believe them over the word of a famous man, and were actually told by the men that there was no point in them saying anything as who would believe them? Yet others were only children who rarely tell about abuse anyway because their blame themselves. Many told no one, and have only now had the courage to do so knowing that others victims have come forward, and always thought they were the only one. Some of the men are now in jail, and others sadly are no longer alive to face the justice that was due to them, but will now be suffering Gods judgement.
I don't know the circumstances surrounding the cases you mention, but the problem is that the accused has a right to be presumed innocent until PROVEN guilty. It's not good that some who are guilty go unpunished, but isn't it at least as horrible if an innocent person is punished? That's the rule of presumption of innocence, with the burden of proof on the accuser. Men's BASIC human right to due process and presumption of innocence is under attack.
Speaking of Cosby, and MANY men, all it took was accusations and absolutely nothing more to do incredible damage to them. Whether he is guilty or not, it is very evil that a woman should have that kind of power to ruin a man at a whim like that, but that's what they have. Thankfully there are women who are against that reality--some women lie about rape (I read an article detailing cases of it) or other kinds of abuse for a variety of motives, but the real point is the profound violation of a man's basic human rights.
If you are interested look up Jimmy Saville(thought to have been the most prolific sexual abuser of children ever in the UK), Rolf Harris, Max Clifford, and Cyril Smith. The later was an MP, very high up in his Govt party, who abused young boys in childrens homes for many many years. Sadly he and Jimmy died before their terrible deeds came to the public attention, the other two are in jail.
There have also been 3 or 4 cases here involving famous men which have been thrown out because of lack of proof or evidence despite a woman's testimony, so the word of one lady isnt enough, and if she is telling the truth she will never get her justice.
And that's the nature of presumption of innocence. NO ONE should have the ability just to accuse someone at a whim and put him or her in jail, regardless of the crime. There is nothing special about the crimes done to women by men . The law doesn't have eyes everywhere, and it is absolutely evil to give someone the power to ruin someone else's life with nothing more than an accusation.
But I have seen so many examples of women being caught on a recording threatening a man to falsely accuse him or later admitting it to realize, it's not just a few conniving women who know full-well they unjustly possess the power to do such a thing to a man. I think it shows that the average woman does.
It tells me that only a minority of women respect the personhood of a man on a fundamental "love your neighbor as yourself" sense. The women out there who actually do are very rare and really stick out.
: Cally Sun Dec 21, 2014 - 04:23:54
There have also been 3 or 4 cases here involving famous men which have been thrown out because of lack of proof or evidence despite a woman's testimony, so the word of one lady isnt enough, and if she is telling the truth she will never get her justice.
And that's the nature of presumption of innocence. NO ONE should have the ability just to accuse someone at a whim and put him or her in jail, regardless of the crime. There is nothing special about the crimes done to women by men . The law doesn't have eyes everywhere, and it is absolutely evil to give someone the power to ruin someone else's life with nothing more than an accusation.
But I have seen so many examples of women being caught on a recording threatening a man to falsely accuse him or later admitting it to realize, it's not just a few conniving women who know full-well they unjustly possess the power to do such a thing to a man. I think it shows that the average woman does.
It tells me that only a minority of women respect the personhood of a man on a fundamental "love your neighbor as yourself" sense. The women out there who actually do are very rare and really stick out.
There are countless women who are like, by far the majority, and remember all the women who were abused as children or adults who never got any justice.
by far the majority,
A matter-of-fact statement that (as usual) completely ignores my argument. If the majority of women respected the personhood of a man, we wouldn't have the situations and injustices in the law.
The lack of presumption of innocence for men is a violation of a basic human right. I keep seeing women just knowing with every fiber of their being how terrible it is for women to be done an injustice, passionate on their own behalf, but it is RARE for women to care about a violation and injustice like this for men's sake.
When a minority of men hurt women, a majority of men tend to go all-out to help and be supportive. When men are hurt by women, it's rare for women to get anywhere near as involved. The Lord has absolutely blessed me to show me that some women do, but it is very, very rare.
I've seen countless news stories of women (oftentimes teachers) who sexually abused boys and they get a slap on the wrist compared to the punishment that men get for abusing girls.
I know three men personally who were abused by women as boys, and their offenders got NO punishment. In one of those cases, the female abuser threatened to accuse her male victim of rape if he resisted her. And I've read stories about this.
And this is what I'm saying: whether every woman exploits her near-unlimited legal power over a man, I find it evident that the average woman KNOWS that she has the ability. And where is the righteous indignation over the fact? The same righteous indignation that causes women to get indignant on their own behalf when they are done the injustice?
Do you see my reasoning? Many women see perfectly eye-to-eye with me on this, believe it or not, right down to the fact that they (these women) know that they're a minority in their abilities to actually care about the personhood of men.
: Cally Sun Dec 21, 2014 - 05:00:46I keep seeing women just knowing with every fiber of their being how terrible it is for women to be done an injustice, passionate on their own behalf, but it is RARE for women to care about a violation and injustice like this for men's sake.
I will praise my wife, she is such a woman. She also has nine grandsons that she does not mind standing up for~she like a bear with baby clubs
Usually these days guys have to understand that there are many predatory women out there.
Many women love to seek victim status while actually being the predator. Between being a false acccuser and intentionally becoming pregnant for a child support check women got it made.
I liked things better when they didn't have equal rights. ....it worked well for thousands of years but we has to "fix" things.
I wonder what will get "fixed" next....maybe the USSR or the Middle East. ..oh wait we fixed them into chaos too...
I will praise my wife, she is such a woman. She also has nine grandsons that she does not mind standing up for~she like a bear with baby clubs
That is awesome Red! I celebrate with you for that.
I liked things better when they didn't have equal rights. ....it worked well for thousands of years but we has to "fix" things.
The thing is, women have always had their own sets of privileges afforded by men since time immemorial.
But oh boy, feminists want "equality"? We need to take the gloves off and make sure they get the rough stuff with the good. Right now MANY women exploit their time-honored advantages and failing to consider the disadvantages that men have and always have had (partly for their taking care of women).
I would dare say that most women have sought some kind of advantage using unfair means.
But men do it as well.
Right now though this behavior on both sides is not getting either sex what they want the most....a spouse.
So what's the solution?
JESUS
In the meantime people are waiting till 30 to get married if they marry at all.
Most births are happening outside of families and the single parent households are the largest demographic in America.
If those statistics don't show that things are desperately broken then I don't know what does.
Being single is the worst epidemic we have in America. ...and the cure is love. Can the affected get the cure? Will they want to?
: Cally Sun Dec 21, 2014 - 05:48:38
I will praise my wife, she is such a woman. She also has nine grandsons that she does not mind standing up for~she like a bear with baby clubs
That is awesome Red! I celebrate with you for that.
My dear brother, I pray the same for you, in God's appointed time.
Its also true that there are many men out there who use and abuse women, however, there are also many good men as there a as there are many good women. To say that most women are out to cheat men just isnt true. There will always be a minority who act badly in both sexes.
: JohnDB Sun Dec 21, 2014 - 06:13:06
I would dare say that most women have sought some kind of advantage using unfair means.
But men do it as well.
Right now though this behavior on both sides is not getting either sex what they want the most....a spouse.
So what's the solution?
JESUS
In the meantime people are waiting till 30 to get married if they marry at all.
Most births are happening outside of families and the single parent households are the largest demographic in America.
If those statistics don't show that things are desperately broken then I don't know what does.
Being single is the worst epidemic we have in America. ...and the cure is love. Can the affected get the cure? Will they want to?
The young people I know in their 20s and 30s who arent married(many of them Christians) simply havent found the right one to marry. They would love to be married.
In the world of course its different, and while many couples do eventually marry, its often after being together for many years.
To say that most women are out to cheat men just isnt true.
To say that most women
don't mind the fact that they have the capacity to ruin a man's life with nothing more than an accusation is my diagnosis that I justified. And that reflects a majority of women disrespecting the personhood of men.
Oh! But more talk about good ones. There's a really tiny facebook group I came across: "women against paternity fraud." Just a random happy thought that jumped to mind.
Once in a while, women care. No doubt about it.
: Cally Sun Dec 21, 2014 - 07:21:37
To say that most women are out to cheat men just isnt true.
To say that most women don't mind the fact that they have the capacity to ruin a man's life with nothing more than an accusation is my diagnosis that I justified. And that reflects a majority of women disrespecting the personhood of men.
Oh! But more talk about good ones. There's a really tiny facebook group I came across: "women against paternity fraud." Just a random happy thought that jumped to mind.
Once in a while, women care. No doubt about it.
Most women are decent human beings Cally, you hear of some cases of women acting badly and paint the majority as the same. I have had men in my family acting appallingly, but I dont assume that all men act like that just because a few did.
Bad behaviour isnt confined to one sex.
you hear of some cases of women acting badly
Eh, whatever. I'm only going to end up repeating myself.
: Cally Sun Dec 21, 2014 - 07:38:45
you hear of some cases of women acting badly
Eh, whatever. I'm only going to end up repeating myself.
Why do you try and make out that most women act the way a few you have heard of do? I have known hundreds of women in my life, and most of them were/are just normal people, wives and mothers just trying to do their best and are not man haters in any way shape or form. Its like when a person has been treated badly by one other person, and they then say things like 'I hate all men, they are all the same' or 'all women are all horrible'.
I know a young man aged nearly 28 who had a bad relationship with a lady several years ago who said she was a Christian, and now he says that he wont ever go out with a Christian lady again. Now how immature is that? Does he honestly think that women in the world will be better than a genuine Christian girl? He is prepared to disobey God because he had one bad experience 7 or 8 years ago? Good grief ::frown::
Why do you try and make out that most women act the way a few you have heard of do? I
I have no idea how I could make the concept I am trying to convey more simple for you. But let me try this another way in case it helps.
Am I saying all women would sexually abuse boys? No.
Am I saying all women would falsely accuse men? No.
And so on.
And here's what bothers me about your reaction. The emphasis of this whole thread to begin with was NOT a focus one women's bad behavior. The focus was on the protection of men who are in danger because of women's unjust capacities to destroy him with an accusation
This is not a jump and saying that most women do this to a man.
Let me see if I can make myself excruciatingly clear: I would like to see women proclaiming that "women should NOT have a legal ability to get a man thrown in prison from an accusation with no other evidence." And, "women should face equal punishments for a crime as men." That and a whole host of other issues. All of this with the same vigor with which they declare the necessity for women's justice.
Yes, I'm seeing a growing number of women do so! PRAISE GOD!!!!! However, it was/is the indifference to men's personhood among women that (mostly) created these legal injustices to begin with.
Yes, that speaks very badly for the majority of women at the moment. Not in a "women are innately evil," sense, but with regards to widespread modern-day behavior for sure.
And the thing is, as much as I try to avoid saying it, your reaction is a case-in-point. When men suffer this kind of disadvantage and injustice such that they are increasingly unsafe, that should mean something to you.
The thing that really pushes me over the edge is all the "where have all the good men gone?" sentiments that come out after women don't demonstrate that they care about men's well-being.
I'm sorry the discussion got ugly, honestly, and I'm also sorry that you're upset. But it's a reality men face, and men have to be realistic about it and fight it. The problems out there are horrible and unavoidable, and ignoring them doesn't make them go away.
Personally . . . seeing more and more women take interest, care, and get involved out of a sense of justice is a big help and comfort to me. HUGE deal. It is no small thing when I say I am grateful to God for women who have energy left over in the "love your neighbor as yourself" level with regards to men more than a "what can men do for me?" attitude.
Before you argue with me any more, can you do me a favor and think about this really really hard, please? Because your rebukes continuously misrepresent what I have been saying. Please try to walk through what I've said, exactly how I reasoned it.
: Cally Sun Dec 21, 2014 - 07:38:45
you hear of some cases of women acting badly
Eh, whatever. I'm only going to end up repeating myself.
I sooooo feel your pain.
: JohnDB Sun Dec 21, 2014 - 10:40:24
: Cally Sun Dec 21, 2014 - 07:38:45
you hear of some cases of women acting badly
Eh, whatever. I'm only going to end up repeating myself.
I sooooo feel your pain.
Thats because you both have a downer on women in general. It comes out in so many of your posts.
: Cally Mon Dec 15, 2014 - 12:51:02
The thing is that if men werent persuing women generally(not just in the colleges), then everyone would be single. Being that most people end up either married or in a relationship, there must be a whole lot of persuing going on.
Yes indeed, many people are still getting married or having relationships.
Marriage rates are nose diving, however. Many people gripe about the fact without bothering to get themselves informed, and come up with worthless criticisms. Many men are avoiding marriage because of the legal dangers in today's world, and that's a fact. Fewer and fewer men are choosing to ignore warnings that come from horror stories that reflect how unprotected a man is in today's world.
Strange that I have never known a single man who is avoiding marriage for those reasons. If it was SO common you would think I would have known at least one wouldnt you ??? . The single young men I know would lOVE to marry, but they havent met anyone yet.
: Cally Sat Dec 20, 2014 - 10:28:59
Amen, tennman, but that's the paradox of feminism itself: even as more women prove their "independence," it still boils down to showing up on men's doorstep to fix their problems, including enabling the world to be this generous cradle in which "equality" is feasible.
But again, today, the providers are in trouble from being so taxed. If women are equal, indeed, can't they do some of the rescuing? I wouldn't mind that in any case. Just look at Proverbs 31:20 about the woman of noble character: "she extends her arms to the needy." What, and a husband is excluded from that if he's the one who's needy?
And then yet again are these cowardly traditionalists: "a man should be the sole provider." Feminism seeks out and destroys men's material success so women can take men's places, and they succeed! Get with it!!!
And credit where it's due: the true Godly women that I've been SO BLESSED to find--just to behold them--are spectacular in their love.
But yeah, it's cowardly and it's a hate-on. Likewise, I think the "men should pursue women" is what you say, and to suggest that the woman should have all the choosing leverage.
Biblically the women are told to look after the husband and children. Many godly men I know believe that they should earn the money while the wife cares for the home and family. It does seem God ordained it to be that way.
: Cally Sun Dec 21, 2014 - 07:21:37
To say that most women are out to cheat men just isnt true.
To say that most women don't mind the fact that they have the capacity to ruin a man's life with nothing more than an accusation is my diagnosis that I justified. And that reflects a majority of women disrespecting the personhood of men.
Oh! But more talk about good ones. There's a really tiny facebook group I came across: "women against paternity fraud." Just a random happy thought that jumped to mind.
Once in a while, women care. No doubt about it.
WHy did you write this?
'It tells me that only a minority of women respect the personhood of a man on a fundamental "love your neighbor as yourself" sense. The women out there who actually do are very rare and really stick out'
Cally when you have been out on the world more, have more life experience, and met many more women, rather than reading all this stuff on line, you will see that most women, not just a few, care about all people, both men and women, and are, as I said, just normal people/wives/mothers just trying to do the best they can in their cIrcumstances.
Because you read so much of this stuff, about the 'poor old men who are are so badly treated by the horrible evil women' in the world, you get a very skewed picture of women and of what most of them are like and it isnt as you describe.
I could give you loads of examples of men I know or have known or who I have heard of who have acted appallingly. Several cases of severe sexual/physical abuse of their own children, physical abuse of their wives, repeated adultery, walking out on their wives and small children for another lady, getting other women pregnant, and those particular examples are from families I have known personally. However I must not let this skew my picture of all men, and make out that MOST men act this way, because I can acknowledge that most men are pretty good decent human beings. You implying that only a tiny minority act in the right way is incredibly offensive to the majority of women who would never act in the way you describe, never have and never would.
Bad, sinful, abusive, unfair, wrong and cruel behaviour is done to people by both men and women. Women to men, men to women, men to men and women to women. Please go to God with this. You have it all way out of proportion and you have such a downer on women which I think God is very sad about. ::frown::
Also you implying that men don't marry because they somehow fear it and what may happen if they do, doesn't wash. Most people end up getting married eventually in their lives, and the fact that so many couples live together now is simply because its so accepted and no one think its immoral any more. Not so long ago it was very frowned upon to live together outside marriage ,and few did it, now many people think you are odd of you DO wait for marriage till you live together.
Choseone:
No matter how many times I repeat it, you never acknowledge the difference in me saying that all women behave outright badly (which I am not), and that there is a huge legal injustice present that puts men in incredible danger.
I believe it is shameful of you that you can't manage to respect men's personhood enough for such a thing to mean anything to you. You think it's perfectly fine that a woman can accuse a man of anything she wants and get him locked up for nothing but an accusation? As you make clear that you think women should get justice against those who harm them, does it mean anything to you that justice isn't served to the same capacity against women who harm men (when it happens, however often or seldom it happens).
But no. You're so stuck on this "you're being down on women" that the issue that harms men flies clear over your head. And that is disgusting. And like what you demonstrate, I find that this attitude that you exhibit (like men hardly matter nearly as much as women) disturbingly common among women, such that these injustices exist.
You DO know at least one man who avoids marriage because of this: me. I have known many women, I've seen the "sweetheart" sides of a number of them, some have shown interest in me (at least several I have in mind outright expressed it), I love them and treat them as kindly as I can manage. Some women with a lot of wonderful qualities, NO doubt about it, but two things: I cannot forget how unprotected I am as a man, and there is a lot of doubt in me over which women are contributors to the legal/cultural problems men have such that I am in such a vulnerable state as a man.
I am FAR from the only man who thinks this way, only a lot of men who do came from horrible experiences themselves. Some men treat women horribly, but here's the big fat difference: a man who suffers from a woman is a LOT more abandoned by others than women who are in distress because of how much more people are full of zeal to rescue women than men. A LOT of the blame for this falls on men too.
I'll never get tired of saying it though: I DO know some wonderful, wonderful women. My hope grows more with the more of them that I see! Yes, proving that a woman can in fact have a human empathy for a man after all! Another thing that's really great is seeing groups in which people are supporting male victims (a place where I see some of these women) who tend to have so little options. One man mentioned how he was giving another man shelter from his abusive wife (since men otherwise have NOWHERE to go in such cases like women can go to DV shelters).
Am I a little"fixated"? Sure, but that's because prudence is in order when cultural/legal misandry victimizes men with so little protection or options.
I have definitely beaten all of this to death. Honestly, chosenone, what is making you want to argue with me anymore? I'd understand a desire for anyone to debate if you're actually paying attention to what I'm saying.
Okay, how about this: I heard what you said. You know all kinds of godly ladies. Fabulous! That has NOTHING whatsoever to do with the topic I started or any of the points I made later, but fine. I heard you: you know hundreds of Godly ladies. Thank you. Is your mission now accomplished, now that I acknowledged what you have said? What more can I do for you?
I am sorry that you are upset.
Chosenone:
Actually, I just had one final thought you might consider.
Men all throughout history, I believe, were--as you put it--people doing the best they could with their circumstances. They were husbands and fathers trying to take care of their families to the best of their abilities. I wasn't there, so to speak, but I suspect they were decent people not unlike the way you tell me that most women are decent people.
And yet, in the post-feminist world, I'm to understand they were all "oppressors of women." In some fashion, collectively, men put down women ALL throughout history. What do you think? Modern men are not supposed to be offended by that claim they way you take offense at the suggestion that women contribute to a condition in the modern world that is oppressive to men.
There's a big difference in my mind, however: it's the modern woman who preaches not to oppress that is doing the oppressing in a lot of cases--AFTER this claim that men of all history contributed to the "oppression of women," women who have enough time on their hands to indict men proceed to either be indifferent or direct contributors to conditions that oppress men. Men of old may not have had time on their hands to question their "woman-oppressing" culture either way, yet the modern woman (yes, broad brush) complains like a pro for women's sake but proceeds to ignore inequalities toward men. I say it again and again, "not all women are like that" is an understatement because more and more women are indeed taking a stand against feminism for men's sake.
Perhaps you could flex your thinking a bit and consider that--accusing me of being "down on women" when it is common to be "down on men" for men ALL throughout history as oppressors of women. ;-)
I'm beginning to think Chosenone is a part of the vast feminazi conspiracy. ....
Relies solely on known logical fallacy of personal experience
completely ignores vast sections of gender equality posts
blind/deaf to any opinion but her own
::pondering::
^And takes offense at a discussion of men's well-being and protection, and disadvantages that men face--thinking that ought to be a forbidden subject, as if men should just suffer in silence.
Sorry, chosenone, because I genuinely pity you. There's a lot of insecurity behind a sheer inability to reason through ideas as they are actually reasoned out than "you're being down on women" knee-jerk reactions. I wonder what I could do for you, as you are a human being as precious as anyone else, but at the same time it's not going to make me (and an increasing number of other people) shy away from subjects pertaining to the protection of men.
".... shy away from subjects pertaining to the protection of men."
Cally - do you forget that we ARE men and do not need protection?
Cally - do you forget that we ARE men and do not need protection?
That is insane.
Look at the world today, and tell me that men are absolutely invincible, that they cannot possibly be harmed, or harmed by a woman.
Dave I pity you intensely for this attitude for your own sake but (speaking for this recurring attitude in general) you are also a danger to other men. So I would say, men need protection from men like you as well. Jezebels may be pleased to have their Ahabs to kill men for them, and that is no sort of righteousness.
Dave let's say that you're insane proposal is accurate just for a moment: let's not protect men! Let's let them drop like flies when they are threatened. Let's let innocent men get locked up in jail, let's let wives hurt their husbands, let's let women do whatever harm they want to men.
Who will be left to protect women, then? Wake up, Dave!
: Cally Mon Dec 22, 2014 - 04:36:12
^And takes offense at a discussion of men's well-being and protection, and disadvantages that men face--thinking that ought to be a forbidden subject, as if men should just suffer in silence.
Sorry, chosenone, because I genuinely pity you. There's a lot of insecurity behind a sheer inability to reason through ideas as they are actually reasoned out than "you're being down on women" knee-jerk reactions. I wonder what I could do for you, as you are a human being as precious as anyone else, but at the same time it's not going to make me (and an increasing number of other people) shy away from subjects pertaining to the protection of men.
Umm Cally practically the only thing you ever speak about on this forum is 'the terrible way that us poor men are treated by you horrible women'. Honestly I have a husband, 2 brothers, 3 nephews and three adult sons, and none of them feel that way nor have this 'poor old men we are so hard done by' attitude that you have. All except one are happily married or happily with a partner, and have no bad attitudes towards women at all. Its very unappealing and indicates a bitterness and resentment towards women that surely needs dealing with.
It doesnt mean that anyone who can see this is in anyway insecure(which I thought was a very weird thing to say), they are merely able to recognise something in you, and a tiny number of other men here, that I am not sure you are able to see at all.
You need to recognise that a small number of men and women treat others badly regardless of their sex. The way you make it out to be, is that most women are horrible to men, and the men, poor dears, are helpless to defend themselves or make good decisions or take responsibility for their own actions.
Please think about this seriously. How would you take it if I, or another woman, were here all the time bringing up case after case after case of the appalling way that men have treated their wives, children, girlfriends, partners, mothers or women in general, and then have the cheek to imply that most men are like that and you cant trust them, and that women should never get married because they will be abused or badly treated by their husbands? Wouldn't you think that was very one sided and a total exaggeration of the truth? Wouldn't you want to stand up for the majority of men who weren't like that? Wouldnt you think that was very unfair and an attack on men in general? Wouldn't you think that that woman had issues with men in general that needed dealing with and healing?
I dont think that men should need women to fight for them, but just that we ALL treat each other, whatever sex we are and whatever sex they are, with respect. There will always be those who act badly, and we have to accept that because we live in a fallen world. We are only responsible for how WE treat others. Women arent responsible for how another woman acts, the same as men are not responsible for how some man act. The majority are not responsible for the bad behaviour of the minority, and should never be in anyway blamed for their actions.
Chosenone, you are outright slandering me. It's true, of bad behavior is mentioned--that's entailed in mentioning the vulnerability of men. But the focus is the protection of men.
How would you take it if I, or another woman, were here all the time bringing up case after case after case of the appalling way that men have treated their wives, children, girlfriends, partners, mothers or women in general, and then have the cheek to imply that most men are like that and you cant trust them, and that women should never get married because they will be abused or badly treated by their husbands?
Again, this is slander for what I actually said. I explicitly clarified that I did not mean to say that most women WOULD hurt their husbands or men in general.
I said, women have the capabilities to do that for unjust reasons. Women have the capability to falsely accuse a man and get him punished without the presumption of innocence, due process, or proof.
Have you seriously taken anything like a math class, or done anything involving logic, not to be able to make this distinction? Your handicap in reasoning is utterly staggering. I freely admit, the discussion involves a lot of ugliness, but your reactionary nature arrives at false conclusions and you are at the point of slandering me.
My 1st response to this thread; I have to agree with the articles intent and the sentiment that Cally has brought forth, but I also believe there are reasons for extreme and unjust feminism today. Men have been outright abusive and oppressive toward women in past times, the bra-burning era created a new mentality for women that has escalated out of control. We hear this same sort of testimony over and over again in Church, where women, regardless of the pain incurred in their relationship will use every once of their power to gain control. Worldly women desire dominance today and their outward actions are proof positive of that fact. What we see is narcissism and other control issues at every level of relationship. Even in Bible school many of the women were challenged by the alignment God had set forth in relationship, but once they submitted to God's will these issues seemed to come to light and were overcame, but out in the world without God there exists no moral compass regarding alignment, and regardless of how loving and compassionate a woman may be there is still a feminist mentality that invokes a certain control over men.
The fear that men in college may possess regarding false accusations is just a life long process, if a women is capable of this sort of crime at that age, what is going to stop her from the same crimes throughout her life?
Men have been outright abusive and oppressive toward women in past times,
Oh, but watch out, Alan! We're against making statements like "all women" or "all men" are like that, right? ;-)
Whether what you say is true or not, I don't believe in excusing the current culture for this blatant injustice toward men as a group. And it is PRODUCTIVE to make men aware of this danger that they face.
Sorry, by the way--yes, there has to be new adjustments to current-day situations, no doubt about it. It's not a pretty subject, but we have to live with and deal with it. Men are not invincible.
: Cally Mon Dec 22, 2014 - 08:22:26
Men have been outright abusive and oppressive toward women in past times,
Oh, but watch out, Alan! We're against making statements like "all women" or "all men" are like that, right?
Whether what you say is true or not, I don't believe in excusing the current culture for this blatant injustice toward men as a group. And it is PRODUCTIVE to make men aware of this danger that they face.
Yep, despite any past wrong doings by men as a whole has resulted in the modern day woman vowing to never be inferior to a man, the problem is that this mentality is often carried out through the injustices we so often hear about today, hence the article.
: Rella Sat Dec 20, 2014 - 14:16:25
I detest "women" interviewers in a man's sport such as football.
We detest them too *coughFOXcough* but it's mostly because they hire airheads who aren't knowledgeable about the game, and not so much because they lack boy parts.
Jarrod
: Cally Mon Dec 22, 2014 - 08:22:26
Men have been outright abusive and oppressive toward women in past times,
Oh, but watch out, Alan! We're against making statements like "all women" or "all men" are like that, right? ;-)
Whether what you say is true or not, I don't believe in excusing the current culture for this blatant injustice toward men as a group. And it is PRODUCTIVE to make men aware of this danger that they face.
Sorry, by the way--yes, there has to be new adjustments to current-day situations, no doubt about it. It's not a pretty subject, but we have to live with and deal with it. Men are not invincible.
What you usually say is 'most' or the 'majority', or 'hardly any' women act well, not 'all.'
Whatever you say cally, the fact is that the number of men are are accused of bad behaviour such as you described is very small. Have you ever personally known a man who has been arrested and accused of sexual harassment/abuse/attack after he dated a lady for example? I certainly haven't and I don't know anyone who has.
True sexual abuse of women and children(boys and girls) has been covered up for so long that its good that at last its being believed and accepted, and that the abusers are actually being charged and convicted. If women are in fear of being accused of 'making things up' then the truth will never come out and that would be sad.
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Mon Dec 22, 2014 - 10:03:17
: Rella Sat Dec 20, 2014 - 14:16:25
I detest "women" interviewers in a man's sport such as football.
We detest them too *coughFOXcough* but it's mostly because they hire airheads who aren't knowledgeable about the game, and not so much because they lack boy parts.
Jarrod
We have some pretty good and knowledgeable women sports interviewers/commentators here. As long as they are chosen for their knowledge and interest in sport, and not just because maybe they are attractive, then its can work really well.
: Alan Mon Dec 22, 2014 - 08:31:05
: Cally Mon Dec 22, 2014 - 08:22:26
Men have been outright abusive and oppressive toward women in past times,
Oh, but watch out, Alan! We're against making statements like "all women" or "all men" are like that, right?
Whether what you say is true or not, I don't believe in excusing the current culture for this blatant injustice toward men as a group. And it is PRODUCTIVE to make men aware of this danger that they face.
Yep, despite any past wrong doings by men as a whole has resulted in the modern day woman vowing to never be inferior to a man, the problem is that this mentality is often carried out through the injustices we so often hear about today, hence the article.
Most of the small number of women who do go 'over the top' in their actions with men, are often those who have been the most hurt by men, and the same the other way round.
What you usually say is 'most' or the 'majority', or 'hardly any' women act well, not 'all.'
This is a LIE. I did not say that most women would sexually abuse or falsely accuse a man.
I said that the majority of women are apparently indifferent to the lack of justice for men in their right not to be tossed into jail just from an accusation. You show yourself to be included.
This is your very basic failure to reason if you can't distinguish the two comments.
If women are in fear of being accused of 'making things up' then the truth will never come out and that would be sad.
You CANNOT take ANYONE'S right to due process (male or female) or fail to put the burden of proof on the accuser (male or female). PERIOD. That is a basic human right and it's one worth fighting for--and thank God, some people (men and women both!) are fighting for it for men's sake right now against those who would violate it.
This is YOUR moral bankruptcy chosenone. Men are victims of crimes like forced sex by women too, and likewise more and more men are also coming out about their victimhood (though their female abusers very seldom get remotely the same punishment as male offenders)--it is good for both genders. I am continuously saying that gender is irrelevant. YOU are the one trying to allow women to have an unjust amount of power over a man.
It's true, the world's courts cannot be expected to know everything. Many crimes of all kinds go unpunished--and we cannot possibly know which ones or how many. That's just our limitations as humans. But an accused person must be convicted "beyond a shadow of a doubt." That's an old rule I didn't make up, and one we ALL ought to be thankful for, and it is an injustice to have any exceptions whatsoever to that rule.
It is YOU who is disrespecting the equal personhood of men, in favor of taking their basic human rights away. You are exposed.
You have proven this statement to be true for simply by the fact that you oppose this discussion which has a focus on the protection of men, NOT indicting women. But you did prove the secondary point I made beautifully by showing that many women like you are responsible for this injustice if you approve of a basic human right being taken away from men.
: Wycliffes_Shillelagh Mon Dec 22, 2014 - 10:03:17
: Rella Sat Dec 20, 2014 - 14:16:25
I detest "women" interviewers in a man's sport such as football.
We detest them too *coughFOXcough* but it's mostly because they hire airheads who aren't knowledgeable about the game, and not so much because they lack boy parts.
Jarrod
::nodding::
coughFOXcough
The times I've watched FOX news, I thought the same thing: how did they pick those women?
: chosenone Mon Dec 22, 2014 - 10:08:57
: Alan Mon Dec 22, 2014 - 08:31:05
: Cally Mon Dec 22, 2014 - 08:22:26
Men have been outright abusive and oppressive toward women in past times,
Oh, but watch out, Alan! We're against making statements like "all women" or "all men" are like that, right?
Whether what you say is true or not, I don't believe in excusing the current culture for this blatant injustice toward men as a group. And it is PRODUCTIVE to make men aware of this danger that they face.
Yep, despite any past wrong doings by men as a whole has resulted in the modern day woman vowing to never be inferior to a man, the problem is that this mentality is often carried out through the injustices we so often hear about today, hence the article.
Most of the small number of women who do go 'over the top' in their actions with men, are often those who have been the most hurt by men, and the same the other way round.
I don't believe the behavioral patterns women display today are a result of individual hurts, this has become a cultural behavior akin to promoting the strength of modern women. I have absolutely no problem with strong women, in fact I find it quite attractive, but I do take issue when it's at a mans expense.
I don't believe the behavioral patterns women display today are a result of individual hurts, this has become a cultural behavior akin to promoting the strength of modern women. I have absolutely no problem with strong women, in fact I find it quite attractive, but I do take issue when it's at a mans expense.
You'd be shocked at some of the things I've read about how public schools are actually teaching girls to be antagonistic toward boys.
Things have gotten so utterly insane, and it's because some people LET it get this insane with the gaping holes in their morality. In particular, those that cause them to be less able to protect men from women than vice-versa.
: Alan Mon Dec 22, 2014 - 13:54:10
: chosenone Mon Dec 22, 2014 - 10:08:57
: Alan Mon Dec 22, 2014 - 08:31:05
: Cally Mon Dec 22, 2014 - 08:22:26
Men have been outright abusive and oppressive toward women in past times,
Oh, but watch out, Alan! We're against making statements like "all women" or "all men" are like that, right?
Whether what you say is true or not, I don't believe in excusing the current culture for this blatant injustice toward men as a group. And it is PRODUCTIVE to make men aware of this danger that they face.
Yep, despite any past wrong doings by men as a whole has resulted in the modern day woman vowing to never be inferior to a man, the problem is that this mentality is often carried out through the injustices we so often hear about today, hence the article.
Most of the small number of women who do go 'over the top' in their actions with men, are often those who have been the most hurt by men, and the same the other way round.
I don't believe the behavioral patterns women display today are a result of individual hurts, this has become a cultural behavior akin to promoting the strength of modern women. I have absolutely no problem with strong women, in fact I find it quite attractive, but I do take issue when it's at a mans expense.
I heard the true story of a woman who who was a man hater and an ardent feminist. She had been seriously abused by the men in her life. She was on a ship and there was a terrible storm, and she thought she would die. She met God and He began her healing. Bad attitudes towards one sex by a person from another often stems from that person being badly treated by a member or members of that sex.
: Cally Mon Dec 22, 2014 - 13:56:51
I don't believe the behavioral patterns women display today are a result of individual hurts, this has become a cultural behavior akin to promoting the strength of modern women. I have absolutely no problem with strong women, in fact I find it quite attractive, but I do take issue when it's at a mans expense.
You'd be shocked at some of the things I've read about how public schools are actually teaching girls to be antagonistic toward boys.
Things have gotten so utterly insane, and it's because some people LET it get this insane with the gaping holes in their morality. In particular, those that cause them to be less able to protect men from women than vice-versa.
Which schools are these? Did you report them to the governing authorities?
: Alan Mon Dec 22, 2014 - 13:54:10
: chosenone Mon Dec 22, 2014 - 10:08:57
: Alan Mon Dec 22, 2014 - 08:31:05
: Cally Mon Dec 22, 2014 - 08:22:26
Men have been outright abusive and oppressive toward women in past times,
Oh, but watch out, Alan! We're against making statements like "all women" or "all men" are like that, right?
Whether what you say is true or not, I don't believe in excusing the current culture for this blatant injustice toward men as a group. And it is PRODUCTIVE to make men aware of this danger that they face.
Yep, despite any past wrong doings by men as a whole has resulted in the modern day woman vowing to never be inferior to a man, the problem is that this mentality is often carried out through the injustices we so often hear about today, hence the article.
Most of the small number of women who do go 'over the top' in their actions with men, are often those who have been the most hurt by men, and the same the other way round.
I don't believe the behavioral patterns women display today are a result of individual hurts, this has become a cultural behavior akin to promoting the strength of modern women. I have absolutely no problem with strong women, in fact I find it quite attractive, but I do take issue when it's at a mans expense.
God does not have an issue with strong women either.
Proverbs 12:4Amplified Bible (AMP)
4 A virtuous and worthy wife [earnest and strong in character] is a crowning joy to her husband, but she who makes him ashamed is as rottenness in his bones.
Which schools are these? Did you report them to the governing authorities?
I read it in a news article which I am currently having trouble finding--sorry. :-/ I just asked an FB group to help me find it.
God does not have an issue with strong women either.
Proverbs 12:4Amplified Bible (AMP)
4 A virtuous and worthy wife [earnest and strong in character] is a crowning joy to her husband, but she who makes him ashamed is as rottenness in his bones.
Or how about
Proverbs 31:25
Strength and dignity are her clothing, and she laughs at the time to come.
I heard the true story of a woman who who was a man hater and an ardent feminist. She had been seriously abused by the men in her life. She was on a ship and there was a terrible storm, and she thought she would die. She met God and He began her healing. Bad attitudes towards one sex by a person from another often stems from that person being badly treated by a member or members of that sex.
You think Hitler and the Nazis committed the atrocities they did for no reason? It was because they felt beaten down (and they were, as more might have been done to save Germany's dignity at the end of WW1), and thought (real or imagined) that the Jews were mostly to blame. Yet who pulled any punches opposing them? Who believes that their actions toward Jews were in any way "understandable"? A few freakishly misguided people, perhaps, may think so.
Yes, chosenone, let's love feminists. Let's pray for them. Christ died for them, and there are surely hurts that God can heal in them. But at the same time, there must be no pulling punches in opposing feminists, because--get this--Christ died for the men that feminists want to hurt and HAVE hurt. It's been far, far too long that showing "understanding" for feminists has meant that the men they seek to harm have gone unprotected. We should not have to see men and boys get hurt by feminists before assuring that feminists would not be allowed to hurt anyone.
Men have always sinned against women. Women have always sinned against men. Everyone is valuable; feminists like us to think that the well-being of one gender is more important than the other, and I pray you and others don't make the same mistake as so many are. The worst feedback loop we have going on today is one in which more and more men are hurt by feminism, and prevalent responses like "where have all the good men gone?" because men ARE genuinely needed for their function. The answer, both morally and logically, is coming to men's defense, which not enough people are doing--but thank God for men and women who do.
What's more, a HUGE fallacy of the post-feminist era is that men's side of the fence had all the greener grass all along, and that is not true. Men's Rights countertheory calls attention to (basically) things like all the good things men have ALWAYS done for each other and women, the ways women have ALWAYS victimized men, and perks women have ALWAYS had at men's expense. Why? To pick on women, or make men superior? NO! To put the picture back in proportion after feminism taught a "male perpetrator, female victim" attitude in everyone's head to such disastrous effect.
Peace. ;-)
Cally - your constant droning on this stuff is as tiring as NR's rants against the Jews.
Give it a break, man.
^You could just ignore it if you feel that way, Dave. ::shrug::
PS: you have to wonder how this topic rocketed up to almost a thousand views in two and a half weeks--pretty quickly compared to the rest of the stuff in the rest of the singles forum. ::smile::
I didn't expect this to turn into such a fiery debate, but the credit goes to chosenone for helping make that happen. ::smile::
: Cally Wed Dec 24, 2014 - 06:28:08
I heard the true story of a woman who who was a man hater and an ardent feminist. She had been seriously abused by the men in her life. She was on a ship and there was a terrible storm, and she thought she would die. She met God and He began her healing. Bad attitudes towards one sex by a person from another often stems from that person being badly treated by a member or members of that sex.
You think Hitler and the Nazis committed the atrocities they did for no reason? It was because they felt beaten down (and they were, as more might have been done to save Germany's dignity at the end of WW1), and thought (real or imagined) that the Jews were mostly to blame. Yet who pulled any punches opposing them? Who believes that their actions toward Jews were in any way "understandable"? A few freakishly misguided people, perhaps, may think so.
Yes, chosenone, let's love feminists. Let's pray for them. Christ died for them, and there are surely hurts that God can heal in them. But at the same time, there must be no pulling punches in opposing feminists, because--get this--Christ died for the men that feminists want to hurt and HAVE hurt. It's been far, far too long that showing "understanding" for feminists has meant that the men they seek to harm have gone unprotected. We should not have to see men and boys get hurt by feminists before assuring that feminists would not be allowed to hurt anyone.
Men have always sinned against women. Women have always sinned against men. Everyone is valuable; feminists like us to think that the well-being of one gender is more important than the other, and I pray you and others don't make the same mistake as so many are. The worst feedback loop we have going on today is one in which more and more men are hurt by feminism, and prevalent responses like "where have all the good men gone?" because men ARE genuinely needed for their function. The answer, both morally and logically, is coming to men's defense, which not enough people are doing--but thank God for men and women who do.
What's more, a HUGE fallacy of the post-feminist era is that men's side of the fence had all the greener grass all along, and that is not true. Men's Rights countertheory calls attention to (basically) things like all the good things men have ALWAYS done for each other and women, the ways women have ALWAYS victimized men, and perks women have ALWAYS had at men's expense. Why? To pick on women, or make men superior? NO! To put the picture back in proportion after feminism taught a "male perpetrator, female victim" attitude in everyone's head to such disastrous effect.
Peace. ;-)
The thing is cally that you are doing exactly what you say the ardent feminists do, you imply that its the poor old men who suffer because of the evil women. They say that its the poor old women who suffer because of the evil men. Both are totally out of proportion to the truth. A tiny number of women, the man haters, treat men badly, as a tiny number of men, the women haters, do the same, but most of us care about bad behaviour of all types towards anyone regardless of their sex.
Thats a flat out misrepresentation of the truth Chosenone.
What Cally and others have shown with facts and data showing the effects of those facts is that ONE group of people has a tendency to abuse unnatural power over others...simply because they can.
We, in the past, have gone to war and killed millions of people to keep this keep kind of evil in check. Nazis come to mind.
And yet you wish to belittle Cally for pointing out the injustice?
What that tells me is that most likely you are a perpetrator of this kind of abuse and wish to continue abusing others...what other conclusion should we come to?
: JohnDB Wed Dec 24, 2014 - 08:10:32
What that tells me is that most likely you are a perpetrator of this kind of abuse and wish to continue abusing others...what other conclusion should we come to?
Not necessarily. Keith (Asher) Intrater used to preach "Word of Faith" concepts where ever he went. Then someone accused him of abusing that teaching for his own enrichment. (which he was NOT doing) He then looked into the practices of many of the well known WOF preachers and was APALLED at how they applied that teaching. To him it was unthinkable.
My point is that perhaps in Chosen's experience she never came across that kind of abuse; so to her that concept may also be unthinkable.
: JohnDB Wed Dec 24, 2014 - 08:10:32
What that tells me is that most likely you are a perpetrator of this kind of abuse and wish to continue abusing others...what other conclusion should we come to?
Oh.my.gosh. ::frown::
There are lots of other conclusions to come to...
perhaps they don't have the same world view, perhaps they just simply disagree, perhaps this subject triggers hurts from their own past due to abusive persons.
I can see both sides of this. As a mother of both sons and daughters and a dh who is employed as a teacher, I can see there is an imbalance of power in the public school systems and it is to the favor of females.
However, I do believe there are some who are easily swallowing the "girl power" thing because of abuse done to them.
It is a very sad subject.
: DaveW Wed Dec 24, 2014 - 08:26:31
My point is that perhaps in Chosen's experience she never came across that kind of abuse; so to her that concept may also be unthinkable.
Exactly. ::nodding::
My point is that perhaps in Chosen's experience she never came across that kind of abuse; so to her that concept may also be unthinkable.
That is possible. However, she is also proving stubborn to getting herself enlightened for the sake of the subject at hand, reason morally in terms of principle versus reaction (inexcusable, such as her attitude that men's right to due process shouldn't be protected), and she is also misrepresenting what I say. She is free to ignore the topic entirely--she has every right to do that. But slandering me (and others involved) is not okay--all the reasons indicating that that's exactly what she's doing are right here on the table in full view, regardless of her reasons.
I can see both sides of this. As a mother of both sons and daughters and a dh who is employed as a teacher, I can see there is an imbalance of power in the public school systems and it is to the favor of females.
However, I do believe there are some who are easily swallowing the "girl power" thing because of abuse done to them.
It is a very sad subject.
The saddest part: there are too many people not being a part of the solution: either those who purposefully part of the problem, see the problem and are not motivated to help (even when it hits close to home), and traditionalists who have the gall to show up and then say "where have all the good men gone?" Griping at men's underperformance as if men were but malfunctioning appliances.
It has to be stopped. It's a downward spiral, it's a dirty job, but it has to be done for everyone's sake.
Note that my original rebuke in this thread was toward traditionalists, and I was actually envisioning those individuals being men more than women: STOP acting like cowards who gripe about a problem (men's underperformance in an area) without even having the courage so much as to acknowledge the forces acting on it.\
Edit to MeMyself:
MeMyself, regardless of chosenone's personal experience, there is no excuse for her believing men shouldn't have the right to due process. No excuse. That indicates a lack of respect for men's personhood, and no lack of experience can excuse that.
Also inexcusable is her incessant misrepresentation of what I have said (ironically, that's her false accusation and slander of me).
Please show some moral integrity and call this out--or at least don't get in the way of someone who IS calling her out. I think you know better.
: JohnDB Wed Dec 24, 2014 - 08:10:32
What Cally and others have shown with facts and data showing the effects of those facts is that ONE group of people has a tendency to abuse unnatural power over others...simply because they can.
We, in the past, have gone to war and killed millions of people to keep this keep kind of evil in check. Nazis come to mind.
And yet you wish to belittle Cally for pointing out the injustice?
What that tells me is that most likely you are a perpetrator of this kind of abuse and wish to continue abusing others...what other conclusion should we come to?
Being that you also have a downer on women in general, I am not surprised by that crazy and bizarre remark. ::shrug::
I see a small percentage of men and women acting as Cally describes. I see the majority not like that at all. We can all tell of examples that we know of, or have read about, that speak of terrible behaviour from men to women and women to men, but to go on and on about it, and imply that its the majority who act like that just isnt true. Its hardly what God would want surely, the constant attacking of the behaviour of one sex or the other on a Christian forum??
imply that its the majority who act like that just isnt true.
Slander, slander, slander. That's exactly what you are doing. I repeated and repeated that a small (as far as we can tell) percentage of women ABUSE an unjust amount of power they have over men, but the majority appear to support those women having the ABILITY to use that power.
You showed yourself opposed to the protection of men's right to due process. YOU showed yourself to be included in the problem.
: DaveW Wed Dec 24, 2014 - 08:26:31
: JohnDB Wed Dec 24, 2014 - 08:10:32
What that tells me is that most likely you are a perpetrator of this kind of abuse and wish to continue abusing others...what other conclusion should we come to?
Not necessarily. Keith (Asher) Intrater used to preach "Word of Faith" concepts where ever he went. Then someone accused him of abusing that teaching for his own enrichment. (which he was NOT doing) He then looked into the practices of many of the well known WOF preachers and was APALLED at how they applied that teaching. To him it was unthinkable.
My point is that perhaps in Chosen's experience she never came across that kind of abuse; so to her that concept may also be unthinkable.
I have come across several cases of severe abuse(what I call REAL abuse)in families.
I have seen a small number of women act very badly towards men(including my husbands ex)and a small number of men act very badly towards women, and sadly several dads act terribly towards their children, but again its the minority who do this thank God, and constantly bringing such things up as a way of putting one sex down, or implying that its the majority who act this way, is very unhelpful for everyone.
: Cally Wed Dec 24, 2014 - 10:03:55
imply that its the majority who act like that just isnt true.
Slander, slander, slander. That's exactly what you are doing. I repeated and repeated that a small (as far as we can tell) percentage of women ABUSE an unjust amount of power they have over men, but the majority appear to support those women having the ABILITY to use that power.
You showed yourself opposed to the protection of men's right to due process. YOU showed yourself to be included in the problem.
I hate to see anyone abused, but its not a thing that is confined to one sex against the other, and should never be implied that it is. In fact I have seen far more serious abuse perpetrated by men on women and children, but if I were to go on and on about these terrible men who do terrible things all the time who would that help? Certainly not anyone on this forum.
I hate to see anyone abused, but its not a thing that is confined to one sex against the other, and should never be implied that it is. In fact I have seen far more serious abuse perpetrated by men on women and children, but if I were to go on and on about these terrible men who do terrible things all the time who would that help? Certainly not anyone on this forum.
You are STILL slandering me. How long must I endure this?
But go on, keep demonstrating that fully grown adult women can reason like pre-teen girls and CAUSE these very problems and injustices men suffer, while I make the mental exercise that not all women are like YOU.
In all honesty, that may be an insult to pre-teen girls, in which case I apologize.
I fully understand and accept that chosenone has not had the experiences portrayed in this thread enter into her life, but for myself, I have lived them and have witnessed countless testimonies of women acting in dominant roles and using their sexuality for personal gain ::cryingtears:: I certainly don't think this thread is aimed at a repetitious personal opinion, I think this type of behaviour needs to be exposed and we as Christians, knowing how God wishes us to live in perfect relational balance and alignment should be the first people to reject unGodly behaviour in our relationships.
I fully understand and accept that chosenone has not had the experiences portrayed in this thread enter into her life, but for myself, I have lived them and have witnessed countless testimonies of women acting in dominant roles and using their sexuality for personal gain ::cryingtears:: I certainly don't think this thread is aimed at a repetitious personal opinion, I think this type of behaviour needs to be exposed and we as Christians, knowing how God wishes us to live in perfect relational balance and alignment should be the first people to reject unGodly behaviour in our relationships.
Yep, and there's no way it can happen if we pull punches in so doing. Plus, it's best to nip problems like that BEFORE they get this bad, isn't it? We made a mistake before letting it get this bad, didn't we? Let's learn and fight it pull-no-punches.
Discernment yes--the kind chosenone is not figuring out, whether "most" women are child abusers or false accusers or whatever (not that it's easy to make that kind of claim without infinite knowledge, but the point is that's not the focus or claim of the discussion). But not in showing restraint.
: Cally Wed Dec 24, 2014 - 09:41:06
Edit to MeMyself:
Please show some moral integrity and call this out--or at least don't get in the way of someone who IS calling her out. I think you know better.
With all due respect, Cally...there was no calling out going on in the post I responded to...that is NOT what was going on.
that is NOT what was going on.
Your take is strangely different, but I'll drop it.
: Alan Wed Dec 24, 2014 - 10:19:54
I fully understand and accept that chosenone has not had the experiences portrayed in this thread enter into her life, but for myself, I have lived them and have witnessed countless testimonies of women acting in dominant roles and using their sexuality for personal gain ::cryingtears:: I certainly don't think this thread is aimed at a repetitious personal opinion, I think this type of behaviour needs to be exposed and we as Christians, knowing how God wishes us to live in perfect relational balance and alignment should be the first people to reject unGodly behaviour in our relationships.
I very much have had that experience Alan, but I have equally had the experience of having known countless lovely godly women(by far the majority) who would never act that way. Even more so, I have had the experience of men I know acting far worse, including three families where there was serious sexual/physical abuse of the spouse and/or children. In all three cases I was instrumental in helping to get those poor children away from terrible abuse.(all three men by the way were supposedly Christian).
Would it be helpful for me to come here time and time again and tell of such stories about the terrible abusive men who are around? Or would it be more helpful that I understand that the majority of men are not like that and to get things in the right balance and perspective?
Would it be helpful for me to come here time and time again and tell of such stories about the terrible abusive men who are around?
Which is not what I was doing. Stop slandering me.
: Cally Wed Dec 24, 2014 - 10:15:32
I hate to see anyone abused, but its not a thing that is confined to one sex against the other, and should never be implied that it is. In fact I have seen far more serious abuse perpetrated by men on women and children, but if I were to go on and on about these terrible men who do terrible things all the time who would that help? Certainly not anyone on this forum.
You are STILL slandering me. How long must I endure this?
But go on, keep demonstrating that fully grown adult women can reason like pre-teen girls and CAUSE these very problems and injustices men suffer, while I make the mental exercise that not all women are like YOU.
In all honesty, that may be an insult to pre-teen girls, in which case I apologize.
cally anyone who reads your last 50-100 posts, will see that you appear fixated on this issue and that you seem to have a problem with women in general, so much so, that you say you dont want to get married because you are afraid of what a wife may do to you. Is that how God really wants you to be? Living in fear of marriage and women? Is it healthy for a Christian guy to be so out of balance on this one thing ? Honestly I have never heard a single Christian man ever speak this way about women, even those like my husband who actually have reason to feel this way if anyone does.
I think this is all very sad, and I think that God may well want to get you into the right balance about all this. ::shrug::
: Cally Wed Dec 24, 2014 - 11:32:28
Would it be helpful for me to come here time and time again and tell of such stories about the terrible abusive men who are around?
Which is not what I was doing. Stop slandering me.
No? Its how many of your posts in the past have seemed.
: chosenone Wed Dec 24, 2014 - 09:59:32
: JohnDB Wed Dec 24, 2014 - 08:10:32
What Cally and others have shown with facts and data showing the effects of those facts is that ONE group of people has a tendency to abuse unnatural power over others...simply because they can.
We, in the past, have gone to war and killed millions of people to keep this keep kind of evil in check. Nazis come to mind.
And yet you wish to belittle Cally for pointing out the injustice?
What that tells me is that most likely you are a perpetrator of this kind of abuse and wish to continue abusing others...what other conclusion should we come to?
Being that you also have a downer on women in general, I am not surprised by that crazy and bizarre remark. ::shrug::
I see a small percentage of men and women acting as Cally describes. I see the majority not like that at all. We can all tell of examples that we know of, or have read about, that speak of terrible behaviour from men to women and women to men, but to go on and on about it, and imply that its the majority who act like that just isnt true. Its hardly what God would want surely, the constant attacking of the behaviour of one sex or the other on a Christian forum??
Yeah...sounds just like the reasoning the Nazis used when speaking about the Jews...no difference whatsoever.
I've got you quoted so there's no changing what you've said.
because what you've said is almost word-for-word what the Nazis said about the Jews.
But now you've used the genders instead of race.
How can you have a cold heart like that?
No? Its how many of your posts in the past have seemed.
If it seems that way, it is because you lack a reading comprehension and ability to reason so basic that you can't tell the difference between two logical statements.
I have made every effort to make the logical distinction in which I said a minority of women (apparently) would commit heinous crimes against men like sexual assault and false accusation, and a majority of women seem indifferent to men's right to due process being take away. You definitely proved to be included in the "majority" category.
The most generous conclusion I can make about you is that your ability to reason is so defective that I don't know how you made it out of the third grade. I don't even mean to insult you. But this unbelievable stupidity is so absolutely staggering and (as it happens) destructive that I believe you should be forcibly restrained, such that you will quit slandering me, and for everyone's sake you learn how to get off your egocentric high-horse and warm-up to learning how to reason logically.
Like I said, that's a generous diagnosis. The not-so-generous diagnosis is that you have a malicious attitude towards men, liking to see them suffer injustice.
Time and time again I clarified: I'm for fairness in justice between genders, be it due process, punishing the guilty AFTER convicted beyond a shadow of a doubt, etc.
But you have a moral failure if you think a woman should be able to get a man thrown in jail with a man presumed guilty, a violation of a basic human right--that could be rooted in bitterness against men, or narcissistic girl-power pride of a typical feminist.
: chosenone Wed Dec 24, 2014 - 11:29:33
: Alan Wed Dec 24, 2014 - 10:19:54
I fully understand and accept that chosenone has not had the experiences portrayed in this thread enter into her life, but for myself, I have lived them and have witnessed countless testimonies of women acting in dominant roles and using their sexuality for personal gain ::cryingtears:: I certainly don't think this thread is aimed at a repetitious personal opinion, I think this type of behaviour needs to be exposed and we as Christians, knowing how God wishes us to live in perfect relational balance and alignment should be the first people to reject unGodly behaviour in our relationships.
I very much have had that experience Alan, but I have equally had the experience of having known countless lovely godly women(by far the majority) who would never act that way. Even more so, I have had the experience of men I know acting far worse, including three families where there was serious sexual/physical abuse of the spouse and/or children. In all three cases I was instrumental in helping to get those poor children away from terrible abuse.(all three men by the way were supposedly Christian).
Would it be helpful for me to come here time and time again and tell of such stories about the terrible abusive men who are around? Or would it be more helpful that I understand that the majority of men are not like that and to get things in the right balance and perspective?
Since the majority of the population in the western world is secular by definition (rather than which box they would check in a survey), the issues presented here are more concentrated to that part of the population. We all know that their are atrocities committed by men everywhere, but that isn't the focus of this discussion either. I would say it's naive to believe that we do not live in a society to which relationships have become dominated by women, it's all around us. Even some of the best secular unions I have encountered are successful by the men submitting to the woman's desires, which we can say is more the intent of this discussion and part of the reason why men can now be ready-made-victims as the article illustrates in the OP.
As I stated previously, men have paved the way for this type of female behaviour but the problem has become as difficult as the cause.
: Cally Wed Dec 24, 2014 - 11:44:26
The not-so-generous diagnosis is that you have a malicious attitude towards men, liking to see them suffer injustice.
But usually the perpetrators of such actions and those who support them do not see that as an "injustice." Indeed, it is usually presumed to be deserved in some way.
Just like the English Common Law against being of illegitimate birth. "Bastardy" was a crime for which you could be convicted and locked up numerous times.
No one saw that as unjust. (except maybe the guy who was just convicted for the 10th time)
That kind of seemed like a non-sequitur Dave. Do you think I could get you to clarify?
: Alan Wed Dec 24, 2014 - 11:47:47
: chosenone Wed Dec 24, 2014 - 11:29:33
: Alan Wed Dec 24, 2014 - 10:19:54
I fully understand and accept that chosenone has not had the experiences portrayed in this thread enter into her life, but for myself, I have lived them and have witnessed countless testimonies of women acting in dominant roles and using their sexuality for personal gain ::cryingtears:: I certainly don't think this thread is aimed at a repetitious personal opinion, I think this type of behaviour needs to be exposed and we as Christians, knowing how God wishes us to live in perfect relational balance and alignment should be the first people to reject unGodly behaviour in our relationships.
I very much have had that experience Alan, but I have equally had the experience of having known countless lovely godly women(by far the majority) who would never act that way. Even more so, I have had the experience of men I know acting far worse, including three families where there was serious sexual/physical abuse of the spouse and/or children. In all three cases I was instrumental in helping to get those poor children away from terrible abuse.(all three men by the way were supposedly Christian).
Would it be helpful for me to come here time and time again and tell of such stories about the terrible abusive men who are around? Or would it be more helpful that I understand that the majority of men are not like that and to get things in the right balance and perspective?
Since the majority of the population in the western world is secular by definition (rather than which box they would check in a survey), the issues presented here are more concentrated to that part of the population. We all know that their are atrocities committed by men everywhere, but that isn't the focus of this discussion either. I would say it's naive to believe that we do not live in a society to which relationships have become dominated by women, it's all around us. Even some of the best secular unions I have encountered are successful by the men submitting to the woman's desires, which we can say is more the intent of this discussion and part of the reason why men can now be ready-made-victims as the article illustrates in the OP.
As I stated previously, men have paved the way for this type of female behaviour but the problem has become as difficult as the cause.
Its clearly very different in the UK because it dosnt often happen as has been described. My husband works in the field of healthcare, which has, and has always has had, more women than men in all positions and roles. He has had no i such issues or problems with the women he has worked with (or for) in 22 years in that field.
I hate abuse or unfair treatment of any sort, especially towards children, but constantly picking out one sex for what a minority do isnt fair or just, and is very concerning when it becomes an overwhelming obsession.
: Cally Wed Dec 24, 2014 - 11:44:26
No? Its how many of your posts in the past have seemed.
If it seems that way, it is because you lack a reading comprehension and ability to reason so basic that you can't tell the difference between two logical statements.
I have made every effort to make the logical distinction in which I said a minority of women (apparently) would commit heinous crimes against men like sexual assault and false accusation, and a majority of women seem indifferent to men's right to due process being take away. You definitely proved to be included in the "majority" category.
The most generous conclusion I can make about you is that your ability to reason is so defective that I don't know how you made it out of the third grade. I don't even mean to insult you. But this unbelievable stupidity is so absolutely staggering and (as it happens) destructive that I believe you should be forcibly restrained, such that you will quit slandering me, and for everyone's sake you learn how to get off your egocentric high-horse and warm-up to learning how to reason logically.
Like I said, that's a generous diagnosis. The not-so-generous diagnosis is that you have a malicious attitude towards men, liking to see them suffer injustice.
Time and time again I clarified: I'm for fairness in justice between genders, be it due process, punishing the guilty AFTER convicted beyond a shadow of a doubt, etc.
But you have a moral failure if you think a woman should be able to get a man thrown in jail with a man presumed guilty, a violation of a basic human right--that could be rooted in bitterness against men, or narcissistic girl-power pride of a typical feminist.
As I said before, women here have been charged with making false accusations and put in jail themselves, and many other women and children who have been abused in the past havent been believed, so it works both ways.
constantly picking out one sex for what a minority do isnt fair or just, and is very concerning when it becomes an overwhelming obsession.
If you're talking about me, this is the same slander.
Dear moderators, I would like you to stop chosenone from slandering me. I qualified my comments countless times that this is not what I am doing, and I want you to please stop this forcibly.
: Cally Wed Dec 24, 2014 - 13:13:49
constantly picking out one sex for what a minority do isnt fair or just, and is very concerning when it becomes an overwhelming obsession.
If you're talking about me, this is the same slander.
Dear moderators, I would like you to stop chosenone from slandering me. I qualified my comments countless times that this is not what I am doing, and I want you to please stop this forcibly.
cally you have done the same with me in your last few posts(and worse) with rudeness, so please stop with the accusations.
just two examples of many
http://www.cps.gov.uk/northwest/cps_northwest_news/woman_jailed_for_false_rape_allegation/[/url
[url=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2188112/Mother-jailed-making-TWO-false-rape-claims-men-dating-didnt-liaison.html]http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2188112/Mother-jailed-making-TWO-false-rape-claims-men-dating-didnt-liaison.html (http://www.cps.gov.uk/northwest/cps_northwest_news/woman_jailed_for_false_rape_allegation/)
^Ah very good chosenone. I too have seen MANY of these.
So surely you agree to the idea that men should have the presumption of innocence, right? That is, a man should NOT be just presumed guilty, right?
In this case, the only reason the man isn't rotting in jail now is because the woman confessed, right? What if she didn't confess? How many men might be in jail now and wrongfully believed to have committed a horrible crime because a woman was believed without proof (as in this case) and a woman accuser did NOT later confess that she made up the accusations?
Surely you see the reason in this, don't you?