My sex drive has always been low in my marriage. We had sex no more than once a week, and my husband always wanted more but had accepted his fate, so to speak. We have been married 19 years.
Last September, my sex drive went way up (I am 41). I wanted to have sex every day. My husband was a little freaked out, but enjoyed this new intimacy. However, I became very aware of all the lust in the world once my drive went up. I started being suspicious of what he was doing or watching. He would get very angry at this. We fought too much over my new sensitivities.
Well, I was going through a computer's old history that I am about to retire, and I found that he would look on a regular basis at what I consider pornographic images (women in thongs bent over toward the camera, large-chested barely dressed women, etc. etc. He used the site linkiest.com (which is supposed to be conservative politically, which is such a joke! It has a lot of inappropriate material) and tumblr. There were even several instance of naked breasts. The history I was initially looking at was while my sex drive was up (the older history also showed that he was doing this as well).
I am devastated by this. Here I was providing him with sexual intimacy every day, and it didn't curb this habit. I feel I cannot measure up to what he wants, and he has since asked for forgiveness and said he is working on it. I have known about all this for only about five days, and he feels I am too unforgiving because I am still very upset about it. He says that it has decreased a lot in the last month or so (the history does show this; I have a great tracker on the computer now, which helps, even if history is deleted), so I think that is why he is so upset. He feels that he is moving past it, but now that I just found out what was going on for the last several years, it is so fresh for me.
I guess I just need advice. I am crushed. I can't sleep at night and I can't eat. He says I am overreacting, but he does acknowledge that what he did was wrong. We have still had sex a few times since I found out, but afterward I am having trouble processing all the things I know that he looked at.
I guess I am torturing myself with this information, even considering a breast augmentation! I am considered pretty attractive for my age, and I have never had something make me feel so terrible about myself. How do I not take what he was doing so personally? I feel compared to these other people.
You cant NOT take what he did personally, because to you, as to all women, this is a betrayal.
Its adultery of the mind, would he expect you to be over it in 5 days if he has cheated physically in person?
Of course you feel 'less than' or that you are not 'good enough', thats why its so evil and so destructive.
Its good that he is looking less, but I think you need to make it clear that you wont tolerate it all in the marriage, and that its a betrayal and that it will take a long time for you to recover.
How about you pray together, and he repents both to you and God? Also it may be helpful if has a godly male friend who he can go to for prayer and accountability for a while.
Also together research putting a porn blocker on the computer, and he may need to agree to only look on the computer in the public rooms of the house and not in secret.
There was a porn blocker on my new computer, but it doesn't block out all inappropriate pictures, unfortunately. I went in yesterday and made sure the settings were where I wanted them to be to block out a lot of material. The old computer only had a full porn blocker, but did not block nudity. I am getting more savvy about this stuff as I get older, so this will never happen again.
We do need to pray more together. We both have been praying separately a lot. I was hoping some other people would write in response with some advice for me, but I appreciate what you have written. He does know I will not tolerate it at all in the marriage. We have to give it some time to see if it completely is eliminated. Until then, I am going to hurt a lot when reflecting on what has happened and how clueless I was for so long. I will keep comparing myself to the images he saw (I looked at a lot of them and can't get them out of my mind now, especially in the middle of the night!)
How do you take this so personally? Bare breasts isn't nakedness in the scriptural sense, and isn't even inappropriate in many cultures (yes, even many Christian ones). The North American breast taboo thing makes even something like nursing a child a big deal, it's far more of a problem than anything else.
If he was such an idiot with wanderlust that he'd want to go after some random thing he saw instead of you he wouldn't have made it 19 years with you in the first place. This really isn't something to stress about so much. Insofar as he's actually said he's done something evil here you're in the right, but I'd be hard placed to make proper case for sin out of this. Still, no doubt you could use some assurance. He's not here so I can't discuss that with him though, sorry.
: JGPS100 Sat Mar 21, 2015 - 22:54:00
How do you take this so personally? Bare breasts isn't nakedness in the scriptural sense, and isn't even inappropriate in many cultures (yes, even many Christian ones). The North American breast taboo thing makes even something like nursing a child a big deal, it's far more of a problem than anything else.
If he was such an idiot with wanderlust that he'd want to go after some random thing he saw instead of you he wouldn't have made it 19 years with you in the first place. This really isn't something to stress about so much. Insofar as he's actually said he's done something evil here you're in the right, but I'd be hard placed to make proper case for sin out of this. Still, no doubt you could use some assurance. He's not here so I can't discuss that with him though, sorry.
SO why are women told to dress modestly if its not a sin for men to see bare breasts? Of course its nakedness.
SO why are women told to dress modestly if its not a sin for men to see bare breasts? Of course its nakedness.
Women are told to dress as they where in North America as a result of a wave of fairly extreme legalism (in the vernacular, not the technical sense) in churches in the 1800s. There are a lot of holdouts but that's over now.
Unless you meant women where told to dress modestly in scripture. Because if you meant scripture it only says that excess focus on jewellery and attire is not the point of a meeting of believers. Modest is only ever in scripture telling women not to wear lavish jewellery at the assembly and saying a bishop has to have a modest temperament. Neither case is talking about anything like what you're talking about here.
But your doctrine doesn't come from scripture here, so I doubt you mean that.
: JGPS100 Sun Mar 22, 2015 - 01:22:10
SO why are women told to dress modestly if its not a sin for men to see bare breasts? Of course its nakedness.
Women are told to dress as they where in North America as a result of a wave of fairly extreme legalism (in the vernacular, not the technical sense) in churches in the 1800s. There are a lot of holdouts but that's over now.
Unless you meant women where told to dress modestly in scripture. Because if you meant scripture it only says that excess focus on jewellery and attire is not the point of a meeting of believers. Modest is only ever in scripture telling women not to wear lavish jewellery at the assembly and saying a bishop has to have a modest temperament. Neither case is talking about anything like what you're talking about here.
But your doctrine doesn't come from scripture here, so I doubt you mean that.
Would you be ok with your wife or future wife looking at naked men in porn? Do you think that porn is ok for Christians?
Jesus does not say that if you lust after a married women, He says a woman. We dont know if people in such pictures are married or not anyway.
1 Timothy 2:9-10
9 I would like for women to wear modest and sensible clothes. They should not have fancy hairdos, or wear expensive clothes, or put on jewelry made of gold or pearls. 10 Women who claim to love God should do helpful things for others,
Seems pretty clear to me. ::shrug::
I am sorry, but this whole post drips selfishness.
For 19 years! the woman doesn't want to give, or feels she doesn't have to give the husband what he needs.
And what does the husband do: he accepts his fate
And then her sex drive goes up
And what does the husband do: he accepts the new situation, not questioning where all this so suddenly came from
Then wife goes through his computer history
And what does the husband do: he accepts this "violation" of privacy and admits fault
The the wife puts a tracker on his computer
And what does the husband do: he accepts again, and expresses the wish to move past the fault
What I see here is a husband who does everything in his power to satisfy his wife, forgives her her shortcomings and wants to work past his own
I also see a woman who is used to get exactly what she wants, and who unlike her husband cannot get herself to forgive his shortfall
Maybe she is right for feeling undesired, but I would like to ask the question...how do you think the last 19 years have been for the husband not being desired by his wife?
: chosenone Sun Mar 22, 2015 - 01:27:56
Would you be ok with your wife or future wife looking at naked men in porn? Do you think that porn is ok for Christians?
I've said in this thread revealing nakedness is not ok. I'll try to explain what I was saying earlier in an easier to understand way once finished replying.
Jesus does not say that if you lust after a married women, He says a woman. We dont know if people in such pictures are married or not anyway.
No, Lust in the sinful sense is about wanting something you cannot have and\or is someone elses. That verse says married woman in every way Greek can say married woman. But I pointed this out last post.
1 Timothy 2:9-10
9 I would like for women to wear modest and sensible clothes. They should not have fancy hairdos, or wear expensive clothes, or put on jewelry made of gold or pearls. 10 Women who claim to love God should do helpful things for others,
I referenced this verse in my last posts.
I'll repost it as you seem to have missed those three of the four lines in my reply...
Unless you meant women where told to dress modestly in scripture. Because if you meant scripture it only says that excess focus on jewellery and attire is not the point of a meeting of believers. Modest is only ever in scripture telling women not to wear lavish jewellery at the assembly and saying a bishop has to have a modest temperament. Neither case is talking about anything like what you're talking about here.
Seems pretty clear to me. ::shrug::
The meaning of the verse is clear, it just doesn't say anything like what you're talking about.
Exposing nakedness is linked to the sexual act throughout scripture, and many Old Testament laws deal with it specifically.
Breasts are not nakedness. They are for feeding children. They are not genitals. I personally think anyone who thinks of them as such, yourself included, has a perverted view of sex.
They are erogenous. But, so are ear lobes, ankles, and wrists, all of which had to be covered in the late 1800's for 'modest dress'. If you're ok with those things being exposed you have no reason to have a problem with breasts. If you think breasts are off limits but earlobes are ok it's only because you're in cultural limbo between the one extreme and some kind of normalcy.
If it wasn't for this kind of perversion that sees breasts as primarily sexual our topic creater wouldn't feel like this:
I guess I am torturing myself with this information, even considering a breast augmentation
Why would she feel like she had to consider that? Because of a perverse culture that sees breasts as primarily sexual and large as being more attractive. Don't perpetuate that.
: AVZ Sun Mar 22, 2015 - 02:24:31
...
I tend to share a lot of your sentiments here AVZ.
: JGPS100 Sun Mar 22, 2015 - 04:49:48
: chosenone Sun Mar 22, 2015 - 01:27:56
Would you be ok with your wife or future wife looking at naked men in porn? Do you think that porn is ok for Christians?
I've said in this thread revealing nakedness is not ok. I'll try to explain what I was saying earlier in an easier to understand way once finished replying.
Jesus does not say that if you lust after a married women, He says a woman. We dont know if people in such pictures are married or not anyway.
No, Lust in the sinful sense is about wanting something you cannot have and\or is someone elses. That verse says married woman in every way Greek can say married woman. But I pointed this out last post.
1 Timothy 2:9-10
9 I would like for women to wear modest and sensible clothes. They should not have fancy hairdos, or wear expensive clothes, or put on jewelry made of gold or pearls. 10 Women who claim to love God should do helpful things for others,
I referenced this verse in my last posts.
I'll repost it as you seem to have missed those three of the four lines in my reply...
Unless you meant women where told to dress modestly in scripture. Because if you meant scripture it only says that excess focus on jewellery and attire is not the point of a meeting of believers. Modest is only ever in scripture telling women not to wear lavish jewellery at the assembly and saying a bishop has to have a modest temperament. Neither case is talking about anything like what you're talking about here.
Seems pretty clear to me. ::shrug::
The meaning of the verse is clear, it just doesn't say anything like what you're talking about.
Exposing nakedness is linked to the sexual act throughout scripture, and many Old Testament laws deal with it specifically.
Breasts are not nakedness. They are for feeding children. They are not genitals. I personally think anyone who thinks of them as such, yourself included, has a perverted view of sex.
They are erogenous. But, so are ear lobes, ankles, and wrists, all of which had to be covered in the late 1800's for 'modest dress'. If you're ok with those things being exposed you have no reason to have a problem with breasts. If you think breasts are off limits but earlobes are ok it's only because you're in cultural limbo between the one extreme and some kind of normalcy.
If it wasn't for this kind of perversion that sees breasts as primarily sexual our topic creater wouldn't feel like this:
I guess I am torturing myself with this information, even considering a breast augmentation
Why would she feel like she had to consider that? Because of a perverse culture that sees breasts as primarily sexual and large as being more attractive. Don't perpetuate that.
You are very naive if you think that female breasts are not seen as sexual. Its a fact however much you deny it. and for a woman to show her breasts is very wrong and for a man to lust over them is also very wrong.
IF you are lusting over a woman who is not your wife, that is a sin. She is not yours to look at or lust over. She may or may not be single, she may be promised to another, or she may be another mans future wife. You are trying to justify a man looking at a woman this way. It doesn't wash, nor does saying that a women doesn't need to cover her breasts when she dresses.
: AVZ Sun Mar 22, 2015 - 02:24:31
I am sorry, but this whole post drips selfishness.
For 19 years! the woman doesn't want to give, or feels she doesn't have to give the husband what he needs.
And what does the husband do: he accepts his fate
And then her sex drive goes up
And what does the husband do: he accepts the new situation, not questioning where all this so suddenly came from
Then wife goes through his computer history
And what does the husband do: he accepts this "violation" of privacy and admits fault
The the wife puts a tracker on his computer
And what does the husband do: he accepts again, and expresses the wish to move past the fault
What I see here is a husband who does everything in his power to satisfy his wife, forgives her her shortcomings and wants to work past his own
I also see a woman who is used to get exactly what she wants, and who unlike her husband cannot get herself to forgive his shortfall
Maybe she is right for feeling undesired, but I would like to ask the question...how do you think the last 19 years have been for the husband not being desired by his wife?
That is a separate issue of course, than whether its ok for us to look at semi naked or naked people.
: Cadence5 Mon Mar 16, 2015 - 14:21:02
My sex drive has always been low in my marriage. We had sex no more than once a week, and my husband always wanted more but had accepted his fate, so to speak. We have been married 19 years.
Last September, my sex drive went way up (I am 41). I wanted to have sex every day. My husband was a little freaked out, but enjoyed this new intimacy. However, I became very aware of all the lust in the world once my drive went up. I started being suspicious of what he was doing or watching. He would get very angry at this. We fought too much over my new sensitivities.
Well, I was going through a computer's old history that I am about to retire, and I found that he would look on a regular basis at what I consider pornographic images (women in thongs bent over toward the camera, large-chested barely dressed women, etc. etc. He used the site linkiest.com (which is supposed to be conservative politically, which is such a joke! It has a lot of inappropriate material) and tumblr. There were even several instance of naked breasts. The history I was initially looking at was while my sex drive was up (the older history also showed that he was doing this as well).
I am devastated by this. Here I was providing him with sexual intimacy every day, and it didn't curb this habit. I feel I cannot measure up to what he wants, and he has since asked for forgiveness and said he is working on it. I have known about all this for only about five days, and he feels I am too unforgiving because I am still very upset about it. He says that it has decreased a lot in the last month or so (the history does show this; I have a great tracker on the computer now, which helps, even if history is deleted), so I think that is why he is so upset. He feels that he is moving past it, but now that I just found out what was going on for the last several years, it is so fresh for me.
I guess I just need advice. I am crushed. I can't sleep at night and I can't eat. He says I am overreacting, but he does acknowledge that what he did was wrong. We have still had sex a few times since I found out, but afterward I am having trouble processing all the things I know that he looked at.
I guess I am torturing myself with this information, even considering a breast augmentation! I am considered pretty attractive for my age, and I have never had something make me feel so terrible about myself. How do I not take what he was doing so personally? I feel compared to these other people.
First of all, it's perfectly normal for a woman's sex drive to increase as she enters mid-life, men should be well aware of this and exercise patience when their drives are not perfectly aligned with their wives, yet in this situation there has not been denial, once a week is not unreasonable nor should it be a reason for a man to turn to pornography to satisfy his urges, however subtle one might feel the images are it still appears to be an addiction that remained present even after his sexual desires were being met (daily). I consider this addiction akin to adultery and thus a sinful act. The heart is quite obviously in a place that is not respectful nor representative of love toward his wife.
: Alan Sun Mar 22, 2015 - 06:14:36
: Cadence5 Mon Mar 16, 2015 - 14:21:02
My sex drive has always been low in my marriage. We had sex no more than once a week, and my husband always wanted more but had accepted his fate, so to speak. We have been married 19 years.
Last September, my sex drive went way up (I am 41). I wanted to have sex every day. My husband was a little freaked out, but enjoyed this new intimacy. However, I became very aware of all the lust in the world once my drive went up. I started being suspicious of what he was doing or watching. He would get very angry at this. We fought too much over my new sensitivities.
Well, I was going through a computer's old history that I am about to retire, and I found that he would look on a regular basis at what I consider pornographic images (women in thongs bent over toward the camera, large-chested barely dressed women, etc. etc. He used the site linkiest.com (which is supposed to be conservative politically, which is such a joke! It has a lot of inappropriate material) and tumblr. There were even several instance of naked breasts. The history I was initially looking at was while my sex drive was up (the older history also showed that he was doing this as well).
I am devastated by this. Here I was providing him with sexual intimacy every day, and it didn't curb this habit. I feel I cannot measure up to what he wants, and he has since asked for forgiveness and said he is working on it. I have known about all this for only about five days, and he feels I am too unforgiving because I am still very upset about it. He says that it has decreased a lot in the last month or so (the history does show this; I have a great tracker on the computer now, which helps, even if history is deleted), so I think that is why he is so upset. He feels that he is moving past it, but now that I just found out what was going on for the last several years, it is so fresh for me.
I guess I just need advice. I am crushed. I can't sleep at night and I can't eat. He says I am overreacting, but he does acknowledge that what he did was wrong. We have still had sex a few times since I found out, but afterward I am having trouble processing all the things I know that he looked at.
I guess I am torturing myself with this information, even considering a breast augmentation! I am considered pretty attractive for my age, and I have never had something make me feel so terrible about myself. How do I not take what he was doing so personally? I feel compared to these other people.
First of all, it's perfectly normal for a woman's sex drive to increase as she enters mid-life, men should be well aware of this and exercise patience when their drives are not perfectly aligned with their wives, yet in this situation there has not been denial, once a week is not unreasonable nor should it be a reason for a man to turn to pornography to satisfy his urges, however subtle one might feel the images are it still appears to be an addiction that remained present even after his sexual desires were being met (daily). I consider this addiction akin to adultery and thus a sinful act. The heart is quite obviously in a place that is not respectful nor representative of love toward his wife.
Alan, its good to know that there are other men around (apart from my husband)who understand the dangers of this, and who get that what he did is making his wife feel 'less than' and 'not good enough'.
I am betting that not many Christian men would feel ok with their wives looking at men in this way. Its totally disrespectful to our spouses to do this.
: chosenone Sun Mar 22, 2015 - 05:22:33
You are very naive if you think that female breasts are not seen as sexual. Its a fact however much you deny it.
And you naive if you think this perception is more than a strange north american cultural fetish. Just being erogenous doesn't make something 'nakendess' in the scriptural sense unless you want to go back to covering ankles, earlobes, and wrists.
and for a woman to show her breasts is very wrong and for a man to lust over them is also very wrong.
As it would be wrong for him to lust over her for seeing her earlobe or even just for looking into her eyes. But we are not Muslim and do not require such full body coverings.
IF you are lusting over a woman who is not your wife, that is a sin. She is not yours to look at or lust over. She may or may not be single, she may be promised to another, or she may be another mans future wife. You are trying to justify a man looking at a woman this way. It doesn't wash, nor does saying that a women doesn't need to cover her breasts when she dresses.
No, if lust is a problem lust is a problem. Reading this topic it appears the images themselves where incidental (on a news-feed he reads) rather than something he sought out for the sake of lust though. We're talking about Linkiest and Tumblr here. Not really where one would go if one wanted to seek out scantily clad females on the internet.
: JGPS100 Sun Mar 22, 2015 - 10:05:05
: chosenone Sun Mar 22, 2015 - 05:22:33
You are very naive if you think that female breasts are not seen as sexual. Its a fact however much you deny it.
And you naive if you think this perception is more than a strange north american cultural fetish. Just being erogenous doesn't make something 'nakendess' in the scriptural sense unless you want to go back to covering ankles, earlobes, and wrists.
and for a woman to show her breasts is very wrong and for a man to lust over them is also very wrong.
As it would be wrong for him to lust over her for seeing her earlobe or even just for looking into her eyes. But we are not Muslim and do not require such full body coverings.
IF you are lusting over a woman who is not your wife, that is a sin. She is not yours to look at or lust over. She may or may not be single, she may be promised to another, or she may be another mans future wife. You are trying to justify a man looking at a woman this way. It doesn't wash, nor does saying that a women doesn't need to cover her breasts when she dresses.
No, if lust is a problem lust is a problem. Reading this topic it appears the images themselves where incidental (on a news-feed he reads) rather than something he sought out for the sake of lust though. We're talking about Linkiest and Tumblr here. Not really where one would go if one wanted to seek out scantily clad females on the internet.
Whether you like it or not, breasts are very sexual. As such women should cover them and men should not intentionally see them unless its their wives breasts.
BY the way, I am not North American.
: chosenone Sun Mar 22, 2015 - 12:10:26
Whether you like it or not, breasts are very sexual. As such women should cover them and men should not intentionally see them unless its their wives breasts.
BY the way, I am not North American.
And weather you like it not, they are not genatalia. It is not pudenda. It is not nakedness by scripture.
The exact argument was made for earlobes and ankles 100 years ago. Unless you accept their standard as right your argument is dead in the water for being inconsistent.
: JGPS100 Sun Mar 22, 2015 - 12:44:39
: chosenone Sun Mar 22, 2015 - 12:10:26
Whether you like it or not, breasts are very sexual. As such women should cover them and men should not intentionally see them unless its their wives breasts.
BY the way, I am not North American.
And weather you like it not, they are not genatalia. It is not pudenda. It is not nakedness by scripture.
The exact argument was made for earlobes and ankles 100 years ago. Unless you accept their standard as right your argument is dead in the water for being inconsistent.
Its not an argument, its what believers who wish to keep themselves pure know to be right. Most men who look at womens breasts will get aroused and will lust.
God is well aware of the importance of a womans breasts in the sexual relationship.
Proverbs 5 v 19
Let your fountain be blessed, and rejoice in the wife of your youth, a lovely deer, a graceful doe. May her breasts satisfy you at all times; may you be intoxicated always by her love.
Song of Solomon 4:5-6
5 Your breasts are perfect;
they are twin deer
feeding among lilies.
6 I will hasten to those hills
sprinkled with sweet perfume
and stay there till sunrise.
2 Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth: for thy love is better than wine.
God is well aware of the importance of lips in a sexual relationship as well. He actually talks about them in verse 2 chapter 1, long before getting to breasts.
This does not make seeing lips 'uncovering nakedness'.
: chosenone Sun Mar 22, 2015 - 13:01:41
Most men who look at womens breasts will get aroused and will lust.
I would add that if a man wishes to lust for a woman a glance is all that's needed to become aroused. The problem is lust, not this weird breast obsession of yours.
JGPS100: As for your original question...
How do you take this so personally?
Do you suppose the husband is eating a bag of chips as he views these images? No. He would be masturbating to them, receiving a release from a woman other than his wife.
Porn physically changes the chemistry in one's brain. As he views and retains these images, he will need a stimulant hit higher than before. There is no way that the wife can compete with this. Even if she looks like a model, she is one...porn offers variety.
It doesn't matter how you sugar coat this, it is wrong.
Also, yes the husband was sorry. But let's ask this, did he offer up this information to her in repentance? No. He got caught. Maybe you shouldn't be so hard on the wife.
: JGPS100 Sun Mar 22, 2015 - 13:45:18
: chosenone Sun Mar 22, 2015 - 13:01:41
Most men who look at womens breasts will get aroused and will lust.
I would add that if a man wishes to lust for a woman a glance is all that's needed to become aroused. The problem is lust, not this weird breast obsession of yours.
Its not my obsession, its an obsession that many man have, which is why they look at them so much in pictures and films and magazines. Where have you been?????
: finding_grace Fri Mar 27, 2015 - 16:00:09
JGPS100: As for your original question...
How do you take this so personally?
Do you suppose the husband is eating a bag of chips as he views these images? No. He would be masturbating to them, receiving a release from a woman other than his wife.
Porn physically changes the chemistry in one's brain. As he views and retains these images, he will need a stimulant hit higher than before. There is no way that the wife can compete with this. Even if she looks like a model, she is one...porn offers variety.
It doesn't matter how you sugar coat this, it is wrong.
Also, yes the husband was sorry. But let's ask this, did he offer up this information to her in repentance? No. He got caught. Maybe you shouldn't be so hard on the wife.
Have you looked at the original post here? These are things he passed on linkiest and tumblr. The former is a news site, and the images in question where very likely ads. You could bring it up right now and see a weight loss ad with a girl in a bikini. TBQH the ads on THIS site could display such things unless they're specifically set not too. The topless ones are the anomaly, but even they may well be incidental given the semi random nature of blogs and link-news sites.
Lets be very clear here, there is no actual porn being discussed.
: JGPS100 Fri Mar 27, 2015 - 19:14:04
: finding_grace Fri Mar 27, 2015 - 16:00:09
JGPS100: As for your original question...
How do you take this so personally?
Do you suppose the husband is eating a bag of chips as he views these images? No. He would be masturbating to them, receiving a release from a woman other than his wife.
Porn physically changes the chemistry in one's brain. As he views and retains these images, he will need a stimulant hit higher than before. There is no way that the wife can compete with this. Even if she looks like a model, she is one...porn offers variety.
It doesn't matter how you sugar coat this, it is wrong.
Also, yes the husband was sorry. But let's ask this, did he offer up this information to her in repentance? No. He got caught. Maybe you shouldn't be so hard on the wife.
Have you looked at the original post here? These are things he passed on linkiest and tumblr. The former is a news site, and the images in question where very likely ads. You could bring it up right now and see a weight loss ad with a girl in a bikini. TBQH the ads on THIS site could display such things unless they're specifically set not too. The topless ones are the anomaly, but even they may well be incidental given the semi random nature of blogs and link-news sites.
Lets be very clear here, there is no actual porn being discussed.
There is always the option of closing the eyes. I know men who do that.
: Alan Sun Mar 22, 2015 - 06:14:36
First of all, it's perfectly normal for a woman's sex drive to increase as she enters mid-life, men should be well aware of this and exercise patience when their drives are not perfectly aligned with their wives, yet in this situation there has not been denial, once a week is not unreasonable nor should it be a reason for a man to turn to pornography to satisfy his urges, however subtle one might feel the images are it still appears to be an addiction that remained present even after his sexual desires were being met (daily). I consider this addiction akin to adultery and thus a sinful act. The heart is quite obviously in a place that is not respectful nor representative of love toward his wife.
I agree Alan.
To the author of the OP. You have every right to feel hurt, but please do not take his actions as an indication that you are lacking. Your husband is in the wrong, period. It is not a reflection on you...it is a reflection on him. You can install parental control software that blocks certain sites and images. Some may consider it overkill, but he has already proven he is unable to resist the temptation.
: AVZ Sun Mar 22, 2015 - 02:24:31
I am sorry, but this whole post drips selfishness.
For 19 years! the woman doesn't want to give, or feels she doesn't have to give the husband what he needs.
And what does the husband do: he accepts his fate
And then her sex drive goes up
And what does the husband do: he accepts the new situation, not questioning where all this so suddenly came from
Then wife goes through his computer history
And what does the husband do: he accepts this "violation" of privacy and admits fault
The the wife puts a tracker on his computer
And what does the husband do: he accepts again, and expresses the wish to move past the fault
What I see here is a husband who does everything in his power to satisfy his wife, forgives her her shortcomings and wants to work past his own
I also see a woman who is used to get exactly what she wants, and who unlike her husband cannot get herself to forgive his shortfall
Maybe she is right for feeling undesired, but I would like to ask the question...how do you think the last 19 years have been for the husband not being desired by his wife?
Tend to agree with you.
: chosenone Fri Mar 27, 2015 - 23:47:20
: JGPS100 Fri Mar 27, 2015 - 19:14:04
: finding_grace Fri Mar 27, 2015 - 16:00:09
JGPS100: As for your original question...
How do you take this so personally?
Do you suppose the husband is eating a bag of chips as he views these images? No. He would be masturbating to them, receiving a release from a woman other than his wife.
Porn physically changes the chemistry in one's brain. As he views and retains these images, he will need a stimulant hit higher than before. There is no way that the wife can compete with this. Even if she looks like a model, she is one...porn offers variety.
It doesn't matter how you sugar coat this, it is wrong.
Also, yes the husband was sorry. But let's ask this, did he offer up this information to her in repentance? No. He got caught. Maybe you shouldn't be so hard on the wife.
Have you looked at the original post here? These are things he passed on linkiest and tumblr. The former is a news site, and the images in question where very likely ads. You could bring it up right now and see a weight loss ad with a girl in a bikini. TBQH the ads on THIS site could display such things unless they're specifically set not too. The topless ones are the anomaly, but even they may well be incidental given the semi random nature of blogs and link-news sites.
Lets be very clear here, there is no actual porn being discussed.
There is always the option of closing the eyes. I know men who do that.
She has no substantial evidence he didn't. She's only looked at his site history and found him guilty based on that...
: JGPS100 Sat Mar 28, 2015 - 14:15:31
: chosenone Fri Mar 27, 2015 - 23:47:20
: JGPS100 Fri Mar 27, 2015 - 19:14:04
: finding_grace Fri Mar 27, 2015 - 16:00:09
JGPS100: As for your original question...
How do you take this so personally?
Do you suppose the husband is eating a bag of chips as he views these images? No. He would be masturbating to them, receiving a release from a woman other than his wife.
Porn physically changes the chemistry in one's brain. As he views and retains these images, he will need a stimulant hit higher than before. There is no way that the wife can compete with this. Even if she looks like a model, she is one...porn offers variety.
It doesn't matter how you sugar coat this, it is wrong.
Also, yes the husband was sorry. But let's ask this, did he offer up this information to her in repentance? No. He got caught. Maybe you shouldn't be so hard on the wife.
Have you looked at the original post here? These are things he passed on linkiest and tumblr. The former is a news site, and the images in question where very likely ads. You could bring it up right now and see a weight loss ad with a girl in a bikini. TBQH the ads on THIS site could display such things unless they're specifically set not too. The topless ones are the anomaly, but even they may well be incidental given the semi random nature of blogs and link-news sites.
Lets be very clear here, there is no actual porn being discussed.
There is always the option of closing the eyes. I know men who do that.
She has no substantial evidence he didn't. She's only looked at his site history and found him guilty based on that...
Why would he have that on his site history if didnt want to see it?
: chosenone Sat Mar 28, 2015 - 14:20:58
Why would he have that on his site history if didnt want to see it?
So, you either didn't read the original post or don't know what tumblr or linkiest are...
Not to mention didn't read the post I made explaining this...
: JGPS100 Sat Mar 28, 2015 - 17:48:01
: chosenone Sat Mar 28, 2015 - 14:20:58
Why would he have that on his site history if didnt want to see it?
So, you either didn't read the original post or don't know what tumblr or linkiest are...
Not to mention didn't read the post I made explaining this...
Don't know about linkiest, but I do know Tumblr has hard core pornography on their site, this doesn't mean that the OPs husband was viewing those clips or images but it is available there.
: JGPS100 Sat Mar 28, 2015 - 17:48:01
: chosenone Sat Mar 28, 2015 - 14:20:58
Why would he have that on his site history if didnt want to see it?
So, you either didn't read the original post or don't know what tumblr or linkiest are...
Not to mention didn't read the post I made explaining this...
How about you re read what she wrote about what he had looked at.
"Well, I was going through a computer's old history that I am about to retire, and I found that he would look on a regular basis at what I consider pornographic images (women in thongs bent over toward the camera, large-chested barely dressed women, etc. etc. He used the site linkiest.com (which is supposed to be conservative politically, which is such a joke! It has a lot of inappropriate material) and tumblr. There were even several instance of naked breasts. The history I was initially looking at was while my sex drive was up (the older history also showed that he was doing this as well)."
Seems clear to me.
: Alan Sat Mar 28, 2015 - 17:52:37
: JGPS100 Sat Mar 28, 2015 - 17:48:01
: chosenone Sat Mar 28, 2015 - 14:20:58
Why would he have that on his site history if didnt want to see it?
So, you either didn't read the original post or don't know what tumblr or linkiest are...
Not to mention didn't read the post I made explaining this...
Don't know about linkiest, but I do know Tumblr has hard core pornography on their site, this doesn't mean that the OPs husband was viewing those clips or images but it is available there.
Huh, usually blog sites have rules about that. I guess Tmblr has a bad reputation for many reasons. Even so it's quite clear there wasn't anything like that ( I can't imagine it not being mentioned)
women in thongs bent over toward the camera, large-chested barely dressed women, etc. etc.
This content comes up in the ads on that site. I looked at the site and they had some weight loss product ad with content like that.
Come to think of it this content comes up on billboards and television commercials regularly.
Yes ads in general are terrible.
No it dosn't show he was looking for porn.
I have compassion for you as I have been there in both situations.
Yes, I've viewed porn confessed it and was forgiven (by God and my wife).
But I have also been in the hurt position too. I was not my wife's first.
She was not mine either.
But the point is, both you and your husband can find some thing(s) to feel hurt about and not get over it (if you allow it). So please do yourself a favor and don't let the devil win by taking it personal.
If you have reached the threshold of sex drive you say (and my wife had at your age btw which almost killed me) ::tippinghat::
then inundate him with so much sex he will have no interest in porn from the soreness...
We live in a fallen world. We have fallen sin natures to contend with till Jesus comes and perfects us.
At best we can only do our best, confess to God our failures, and move on as we strive to serve him more.
Keep short accounts with him (1 John 1:9 - 1 John 2:5).
And realize the same Law that convicts your husband for what he does convicts you for what you do.
And you would not believe how precise the Law of Moses is about women's apparel and how most Christian women today (Christian women) would be accused by the Law of dressing like harlots. Even in my grandmother's (hemline below the knee) day.
Am I saying blow off the porn on your husband's part? No. Just get out of the way and allow God to deal with it. And accept what God does about it. It may seem like he does nothing about it... but he will. If not in this life, I believe at the BEMA seat judgment we are all going to account for the things we long since forgot about or became so desensitized to we could no longer tell it was even wrong... from miniskirts to stark nudity... we're going to be quite surprised...
We can by dealing with our sin ourselves through confession and ceasing things like pornography and what all, avoid it at the BEMA seat. The verses escape me right now but I'll try to find them and post here later. Suffice it to say we would do good to confess even the sin we are clueless about.
: JGPS100 Sat Mar 21, 2015 - 22:54:00
How do you take this so personally? Bare breasts isn't nakedness in the scriptural sense, and isn't even inappropriate in many cultures (yes, even many Christian ones). The North American breast taboo thing makes even something like nursing a child a big deal, it's far more of a problem than anything else.
Whether in the overall sense that is immodest or not is NOT THE POINT. In the culture where the OP lives it IS considered immodest and lust-inciting. That IS the point. He is lusting over someone not his wife.
: JohnDB70X7 Mon May 25, 2015 - 20:41:26
I have compassion for you as I have been there in both situations.
Yes, I've viewed porn confessed it and was forgiven (by God and my wife).
But I have also been in the hurt position too. I was not my wife's first.
She was not mine either.
But the point is, both you and your husband can find some thing(s) to feel hurt about and not get over it (if you allow it). So please do yourself a favor and don't let the devil win by taking it personal.
If you have reached the threshold of sex drive you say (and my wife had at your age btw which almost killed me) ::tippinghat::
then inundate him with so much sex he will have no interest in porn from the soreness...
We live in a fallen world. We have fallen sin natures to contend with till Jesus comes and perfects us.
At best we can only do our best, confess to God our failures, and move on as we strive to serve him more.
Keep short accounts with him (1 John 1:9 - 1 John 2:5).
And realize the same Law that convicts your husband for what he does convicts you for what you do.
And you would not believe how precise the Law of Moses is about women's apparel and how most Christian women today (Christian women) would be accused by the Law of dressing like harlots. Even in my grandmother's (hemline below the knee) day.
Am I saying blow off the porn on your husband's part? No. Just get out of the way and allow God to deal with it. And accept what God does about it. It may seem like he does nothing about it... but he will. If not in this life, I believe at the BEMA seat judgment we are all going to account for the things we long since forgot about or became so desensitized to we could no longer tell it was even wrong... from miniskirts to stark nudity... we're going to be quite surprised...
We can by dealing with our sin ourselves through confession and ceasing things like pornography and what all, avoid it at the BEMA seat. The verses escape me right now but I'll try to find them and post here later. Suffice it to say we would do good to confess even the sin we are clueless about.
Its a fallacy that men look at porn because they dont have enough sex. I have read stories from many women who will tell you the opposite, and sadly if a man is really addicted to porn, he often can no longer have normal healthy sex and doesnt want it, far easier to look at porn.
: chosenone Tue May 26, 2015 - 12:57:13
: JohnDB70X7 Mon May 25, 2015 - 20:41:26
I have compassion for you as I have been there in both situations.
Yes, I've viewed porn confessed it and was forgiven (by God and my wife).
But I have also been in the hurt position too. I was not my wife's first.
She was not mine either.
But the point is, both you and your husband can find some thing(s) to feel hurt about and not get over it (if you allow it). So please do yourself a favor and don't let the devil win by taking it personal.
If you have reached the threshold of sex drive you say (and my wife had at your age btw which almost killed me) ::tippinghat::
then inundate him with so much sex he will have no interest in porn from the soreness...
We live in a fallen world. We have fallen sin natures to contend with till Jesus comes and perfects us.
At best we can only do our best, confess to God our failures, and move on as we strive to serve him more.
Keep short accounts with him (1 John 1:9 - 1 John 2:5).
And realize the same Law that convicts your husband for what he does convicts you for what you do.
And you would not believe how precise the Law of Moses is about women's apparel and how most Christian women today (Christian women) would be accused by the Law of dressing like harlots. Even in my grandmother's (hemline below the knee) day.
Am I saying blow off the porn on your husband's part? No. Just get out of the way and allow God to deal with it. And accept what God does about it. It may seem like he does nothing about it... but he will. If not in this life, I believe at the BEMA seat judgment we are all going to account for the things we long since forgot about or became so desensitized to we could no longer tell it was even wrong... from miniskirts to stark nudity... we're going to be quite surprised...
We can by dealing with our sin ourselves through confession and ceasing things like pornography and what all, avoid it at the BEMA seat. The verses escape me right now but I'll try to find them and post here later. Suffice it to say we would do good to confess even the sin we are clueless about.
Its a fallacy that men look at porn because they dont have enough sex. I have read stories from many women who will tell you the opposite, and sadly if a man is really addicted to porn, he often can no longer have normal healthy sex and doesnt want it, far easier to look at porn.
You're absolutely correct, from the many people that I've discussed this with, their life intertwined with porn is all about a fantasy that is separate from their sex life and highly addictive. Very few have said that their desire for porn diminished when they married or cohabited.
And most view porn (by what the Bible describes as perversion to God's plan of exclusivity) on a daily basis as they go through life only they don't realize it. Desensitization and acceptance / toleration of social norms have dulled the senses to what one sees even in Church services... and that thought to be quite conservative.
It fell on the shoulders of United States Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart to describe his threshold test for obscenity in Jacobellis v. Ohio. In explaining why the material at issue in the case was not obscene under the Roth test, and therefore was protected speech that could not be censored, Stewart wrote: I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["hard-core pornography"], and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it...
Cowardice echoed from the various political stumps to the bully pulpits of the land... all afraid to nail the troublesome topic down once for all by going to the Bible. What fuels their fears?
1. people are guilty of breaking these taboos because they are far more absolute that most realize or are willing to deal with.
2. included in the taboos most definitely is the judge's pet perversion...
So if we do as the Pharisees did when Jesus said "I will answer your question from where did I get authority to do these miracles if you answer me this first... John's Baptism was it from men or from God?" I can't define it but I know it when I see it... "we do not know..."
The responses to my post trying to solve the dilemma of a sister here were all about people who are addicted to porn. Beyond the scope of what she spelled out quite succinctly. The replies to my posts were like beer and whiskey alcoholics condemning pot smokers. They pat themselves and each other on the back too.
: JohnDB70X7 Tue May 26, 2015 - 20:42:06
And most view porn (by what the Bible describes as perversion to God's plan of exclusivity) on a daily basis as they go through life only they don't realize it. Desensitization and acceptance / toleration of social norms have dulled the senses to what one sees even in Church services... and that thought to be quite conservative.
It fell on the shoulders of United States Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart to describe his threshold test for obscenity in Jacobellis v. Ohio. In explaining why the material at issue in the case was not obscene under the Roth test, and therefore was protected speech that could not be censored, Stewart wrote: I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["hard-core pornography"], and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it...
Cowardice echoed from the various political stumps to the bully pulpits of the land... all afraid to nail the troublesome topic down once for all by going to the Bible. What fuels their fears?
1. people are guilty of breaking these taboos because they are far more absolute that most realize or are willing to deal with.
2. included in the taboos most definitely is the judge's pet perversion...
So if we do as the Pharisees did when Jesus said "I will answer your question from where did I get authority to do these miracles if you answer me this first... John's Baptism was it from men or from God?" I can't define it but I know it when I see it... "we do not know..."
The responses to my post trying to solve the dilemma of a sister here were all about people who are addicted to porn. Beyond the scope of what she spelled out quite succinctly. The replies to my posts were like beer and whiskey alcoholics condemning pot smokers. They pat themselves and each other on the back too.
Where did this happen on the thread? I didnt see it. ::shrug::
BTW there are many godly men about who still will turn away from porn or similar. I know some. So I dont agree that we all look at porn without realising it. Some are very careful about what they see.
However many men who look at porn a lot, will rather do that than have to have sex with their wives which to them is far more complicated, and many cant even get aroused by their wives any more. So, for you to in anyway suggest that if a wife has more sex with him he wouldnt do it is entirely wrong. Also if a man looks at porn(which is a form of cheating) it drives the woman away from him emotionally and makes her feel unloved, not good enough and rejected, she is hardly going to be able to want to have more sex with him in that state.
To in anyway imply that its in any way her responsibility, because if she had more sex with him he wouldnt 'need' to do it, is putting the blame on the wrong person.
: chosenone Tue May 26, 2015 - 21:00:17
Where did this happen on the thread? I didn't see it. ::shrug::
BTW there are many godly men about who still will turn away from porn or similar. I know some. So I don't agree that we all look at porn without realizing it. Some are very careful about what they see.
Isaiah 47:1–3 (AV)
1Come down, and sit in the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon, sit on the ground: there is no throne, O daughter of the Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more be called tender and delicate.
2Take the millstones, and grind meal:
uncover thy locks, make bare the leg, uncover the thigh, pass over the rivers.
3
Thy nakedness shall be uncovered, yea, thy shame shall be seen: I will take vengeance, and I will not meet thee as a man.
Leviticus 18:8 (AV)
8The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover:
it is thy father's nakedness.
These two scripture passages were behind the teaching of Hillel; "a woman who exposes even her legs before men not her husband (even if accidentally) is guilty of a divorceable offense (adultery). To which Jesus responded:
Matthew 5:27–30 (AV)
27Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Ironically men are beaten over the head with this passage because church doctrines create a one-sided teaching from Jesus' response to a one-sided teaching. Jesus did not refute Hillel. Hillel got it half right. He just forgot about:
Job 31:1–13 (NIV84)
1"I made a covenant with my eyes not to look lustfully at a girl.
2For what is man's lot from God above, his heritage from the Almighty on high?
3Is it not ruin for the wicked, disaster for those who do wrong?
4Does he not see my ways and count my every step?
5"If I have walked in falsehood or my foot has hurried after deceit—
6let God weigh me in honest scales and he will know that I am blameless—
7if my steps have turned from the path, if my heart has been led by my eyes, or if my hands have been defiled,
8then may others eat what I have sown, and may my crops be uprooted.
9"If my heart has been enticed by a woman, or if I have lurked at my neighbor's door,
10then may my wife grind another man's grain, and may other men sleep with her.
11For that would have been shameful, a sin to be judged.
12It is a fire that burns to Destruction; it would have uprooted my harvest.
13"If I have denied justice to my menservants and maidservants when they had a grievance against me,
Now you and I would be lying to ourselves and each other if we said we are not guilty of this. And we would be as dishonest if we denied the fact that what passes for acceptable attire for women in Church today would have been considered the attire of prostitutes not all that many decades ago.
A very big part of how this happened is our desensitization to sex and sexuality. This was a big reason why the scriptures were so explicit on the subject. And there are lost more scriptures. I know I used to beat other believers and myself over the head with them. But you must filter all things through two factors: the covenant we are under and that we are all guilty of the same things. Our own guilt is something we tend to be easily desensitized to as well.
All I am saying is that we see porn (by biblical standards) far more often that we realize or will admit. Society had taken the express train to Sodom and Gomorrah and the Church has gone along for the ride most of the way. Is this lady right? Of course. Has she exposed herself before others (by biblical standards) most likely if she's a typical American woman. What about the poor wives of the men she's shown leg (etc) to?
You want mercy or you want justice (because you can't have both)?
The Law = justice
Grace = mercy
Galatians 3:24–25 (NASB95)
24Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
The Forward to the Bible:
2 Peter 1:20–21 (NASB95)
20But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,
21for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
The Conclusion:
1 John 2:1 (NASB95)
1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
This goes for any sin.
Porn is not the second unpardonable sin.
And I am not advocating porn or suggesting it's okay in any shape or form.
I am saying we all are a lot more guilty of looking at it or displaying it through our immodesty than our desensitized / self righteous (erasing mechanism) allows us to realize. And this is not to even go into how we tolerate / indulge the most heinous immorality is public, in schools, in media before our very eyes and more imporatntly before children's eyes!
The BEMA seat is not going to be as pleasant a thing as people think with undealt with sin in this life!
OP hasn't come back here since March anyway.
: JohnDB70X7 Fri Jun 05, 2015 - 20:27:56
: chosenone Tue May 26, 2015 - 21:00:17
Where did this happen on the thread? I didn't see it. ::shrug::
BTW there are many godly men about who still will turn away from porn or similar. I know some. So I don't agree that we all look at porn without realizing it. Some are very careful about what they see.
Isaiah 47:1–3 (AV)
1Come down, and sit in the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon, sit on the ground: there is no throne, O daughter of the Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more be called tender and delicate.
2Take the millstones, and grind meal: uncover thy locks, make bare the leg, uncover the thigh, pass over the rivers.
3Thy nakedness shall be uncovered, yea, thy shame shall be seen: I will take vengeance, and I will not meet thee as a man.
Leviticus 18:8 (AV)
8The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.
These two scripture passages were behind the teaching of Hillel; "a woman who exposes even her legs before men not her husband (even if accidentally) is guilty of a divorceable offense (adultery). To which Jesus responded:
Matthew 5:27–30 (AV)
27Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Ironically men are beaten over the head with this passage because church doctrines create a one-sided teaching from Jesus' response to a one-sided teaching. Jesus did not refute Hillel. Hillel got it half right. He just forgot about:
Job 31:1–13 (NIV84)
1"I made a covenant with my eyes not to look lustfully at a girl.
2For what is man's lot from God above, his heritage from the Almighty on high?
3Is it not ruin for the wicked, disaster for those who do wrong?
4Does he not see my ways and count my every step?
5"If I have walked in falsehood or my foot has hurried after deceit—
6let God weigh me in honest scales and he will know that I am blameless—
7if my steps have turned from the path, if my heart has been led by my eyes, or if my hands have been defiled,
8then may others eat what I have sown, and may my crops be uprooted.
9"If my heart has been enticed by a woman, or if I have lurked at my neighbor's door,
10then may my wife grind another man's grain, and may other men sleep with her.
11For that would have been shameful, a sin to be judged.
12It is a fire that burns to Destruction; it would have uprooted my harvest.
13"If I have denied justice to my menservants and maidservants when they had a grievance against me,
Now you and I would be lying to ourselves and each other if we said we are not guilty of this. And we would be as dishonest if we denied the fact that what passes for acceptable attire for women in Church today would have been considered the attire of prostitutes not all that many decades ago.
A very big part of how this happened is our desensitization to sex and sexuality. This was a big reason why the scriptures were so explicit on the subject. And there are lost more scriptures. I know I used to beat other believers and myself over the head with them. But you must filter all things through two factors: the covenant we are under and that we are all guilty of the same things. Our own guilt is something we tend to be easily desensitized to as well.
All I am saying is that we see porn (by biblical standards) far more often that we realize or will admit. Society had taken the express train to Sodom and Gomorrah and the Church has gone along for the ride most of the way. Is this lady right? Of course. Has she exposed herself before others (by biblical standards) most likely if she's a typical American woman. What about the poor wives of the men she's shown leg (etc) to?
You want mercy or you want justice (because you can't have both)?
The Bible tells us that mercy triumphs over judgment. (James 2:13)
Justice without mercy is cruelty.
: JohnDB70X7 Fri Jun 05, 2015 - 20:27:56
: chosenone Tue May 26, 2015 - 21:00:17
Where did this happen on the thread? I didn't see it. ::shrug::
BTW there are many godly men about who still will turn away from porn or similar. I know some. So I don't agree that we all look at porn without realizing it. Some are very careful about what they see.
Isaiah 47:1–3 (AV)
1Come down, and sit in the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon, sit on the ground: there is no throne, O daughter of the Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more be called tender and delicate.
2Take the millstones, and grind meal: uncover thy locks, make bare the leg, uncover the thigh, pass over the rivers.
3Thy nakedness shall be uncovered, yea, thy shame shall be seen: I will take vengeance, and I will not meet thee as a man.
Leviticus 18:8 (AV)
8The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.
These two scripture passages were behind the teaching of Hillel; "a woman who exposes even her legs before men not her husband (even if accidentally) is guilty of a divorceable offense (adultery). To which Jesus responded:
Matthew 5:27–30 (AV)
27Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Ironically men are beaten over the head with this passage because church doctrines create a one-sided teaching from Jesus' response to a one-sided teaching. Jesus did not refute Hillel. Hillel got it half right. He just forgot about:
Job 31:1–13 (NIV84)
1"I made a covenant with my eyes not to look lustfully at a girl.
2For what is man's lot from God above, his heritage from the Almighty on high?
3Is it not ruin for the wicked, disaster for those who do wrong?
4Does he not see my ways and count my every step?
5"If I have walked in falsehood or my foot has hurried after deceit—
6let God weigh me in honest scales and he will know that I am blameless—
7if my steps have turned from the path, if my heart has been led by my eyes, or if my hands have been defiled,
8then may others eat what I have sown, and may my crops be uprooted.
9"If my heart has been enticed by a woman, or if I have lurked at my neighbor's door,
10then may my wife grind another man's grain, and may other men sleep with her.
11For that would have been shameful, a sin to be judged.
12It is a fire that burns to Destruction; it would have uprooted my harvest.
13"If I have denied justice to my menservants and maidservants when they had a grievance against me,
Now you and I would be lying to ourselves and each other if we said we are not guilty of this. And we would be as dishonest if we denied the fact that what passes for acceptable attire for women in Church today would have been considered the attire of prostitutes not all that many decades ago.
A very big part of how this happened is our desensitization to sex and sexuality. This was a big reason why the scriptures were so explicit on the subject. And there are lost more scriptures. I know I used to beat other believers and myself over the head with them. But you must filter all things through two factors: the covenant we are under and that we are all guilty of the same things. Our own guilt is something we tend to be easily desensitized to as well.
All I am saying is that we see porn (by biblical standards) far more often that we realize or will admit. Society had taken the express train to Sodom and Gomorrah and the Church has gone along for the ride most of the way. Is this lady right? Of course. Has she exposed herself before others (by biblical standards) most likely if she's a typical American woman. What about the poor wives of the men she's shown leg (etc) to?
You want mercy or you want justice (because you can't have both)?
I agree that some women do dress very immodestly(although the Christian ladies I l know dont), and even some Christian ladies do as well, but men are not helpless to look away/close their eyes/avoid places where this is more likely to happen.