Catholic belief:
All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. (CCC 1030)
The basic argument for Purgatory is as follows:
1. God is holy and perfect, and He tells us to be holy and perfect as he is holy and perfect.
"...but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy." (1Pet 1:15-16)
"You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."(Mt 5:48)
2. Unless we are clean (holy and perfect) we will not enter heaven for a life of communion with God.
"But nothing unclean will enter it" [The new Jerusalem – Heaven] (Rev 21:27)
3. Unless we are holy we will not see God.
"Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord" (Heb 12;14)
4. When we are initially justified (I believe by baptism) God makes us holy and perfect.
"When the goodness and loving kindness of God our Saviour appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Saviour, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life." (Ti 3:4-7)
5. But during our life we sin which disfigures and soils our souls and from which we need cleansing to restore us the holiness and perfection necessary to enter heaven. This is an ongoing process of sin, repentance, and cleansing.
"Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God." (2Cor 7:1)
6. If we are not wholly clean, holy and perfect there must be some process whereby we can be cleansed and made holy and perfect. Scripture tells us there is:
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb 12:22-23)
This shows that there is a way, a process, whereby the spirits of just men are made perfect.
God in his mercy has provided a final purification process whereby we are made fit to enter his presence.
Catholics call this process Purgatory.
Purgatory
"early 13c., from M.L. purgatorium (St. Bernard, early 12c.), from L.L., "means of cleansing," prop. neut. of purgatorius (adj.) "purging, cleansing," from L. purgare (see purge)."
(Online Etymology Dictionary)
Protestantism.
According to Wikipedia many Protestants have a similar concept but call it Glorification.
"Glorification is the Protestant alternative to Purgatory, as it is "the means by which the elect receive perfection before entering into the kingdom of Heaven." According to the theologies of most major Protestant groups" (Wikipedia)
Judaism
Some claim that the concept of purgatory is pagan, but in fact it is rooted in Judaic beliefs.
The classic point on this as I'm sure you are aware in 2Macc 12:46 where Judas Maccabeus offers up prayers for the dead, thus indicating that there is some existence after dead that can be helped by prayers. I realise you probably do not accept this as scriptural, although it was accepted as such by all Christians for almost 1500 years. However it is evidence of a Jewish belief, and there is other evidence that this was a Jewish belief. They called it Gehoim.
"According to Judaism, the purifying process that a sullied soul undergoes to cleanse it from its spiritual uncleanliness is a temporary one, and is restorative in its intent, and not punitive, as many mistakenly believe. Ultimately, all Jews have portion in the World to Come, as do Righteous Gentiles, non-Jews who observe the Seven Noahide Commandments." (see this link http://www.chabad.org/library/articl...-teachings.htm (http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/512017/jewish/Is-there-any-sort-of-Purgatory-or-Satan-in-Jewish-teachings.htm))
Orthodox Jewish practices, which branched off from the Old Testament religion, to this day reflect belief in this "place" of final purification which they call Gehenom: when an Orthodox Jewish person dies, a ritual called the taharah is performed by the "Chevra kaddisha -- gmilat khessed shel emet," the "Holy Society" or "Burial Society" of Jews knowledgeable in these traditional duties. They cleanse and prepare the physical body and recite the required prayers (Chevra Kadisha) which ask God for forgiveness for any sins the departed may have committed, and beg Him to guard and grant eternal peace to the departed. For eleven months after the death of a loved one certain members of the family pray a prayer called the Mourner's Qaddish (or Kaddish) for their loved one's purification.
Even the The Talmud1 speaks of Purgatory: Sabbath 33b:
"The judgment of the wicked in purgatory is twelve months."
Rosh HaShanah 16b-17a:
"It has been taught that the school of Shammai says: "There will be three groups on Judgment Day (yom haDin):
(1) one that is completely righteous,
(2) one that is completely wicked,
(3) and one that is in between."
Rabbi Shammai (50 BC - AD 30), one of the two main teachers of early rabbinical Judaism, also is on record as having interpreted Zechariah 13:9 as referring to a state of purification after death. Isaiah 66:15-16 and Malachi 3:2-3 were also interpreted in rabbinic literature as referring to the purgatorial process.
To be continued...
Purgatory continued
Holiness
Purgatory is about becoming holy. Catholics call this Sanctification but Protestants use Sanctification differently. It is about the secondary consequences of sin not the primary consequence of sin. The primary consequence of sin is a rupture (partial or total) of communion with God. It is the healing of that rupture that Jesus atoned for on the cross.
We are born into a sinful condition.
"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." (Psalm 51:5).
During our lives we pile sin upon sin.
"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1Jn 1:8).
Or as St. Paul put it
"Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin." (Rom 7:25)
Unless we do something about them the consequences of sin accumulate and we are told that nothing unclean may enter heaven (Rev 21:27).
We are urged to become pure and holy, without blemish
"But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace." (2Pet 3:13-14)
"Beloved, we are God's children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. And every one who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure." (1Jn 3:2-3)
We need to be cleansed or purged from the consequences of sin that affect us so that we may be fit to enter the presence of God.
Love never ends says St. Paul (1 Cor 13:8). In heaven what else will there be. "So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.". (1 Cor 13:13), and in heaven there will be no need of faith for we will be in the presence of God; there will be no need for hope because we will have attained all that we hoped for.
All that we will need is perfect love, and indeed nothing else. All else besides love, that which detracts from love, that is less than love must be left behind. There can be no anger, hate, lust, greed, jealousy, pride, covetousness, or any such thing. It is not enough to "cover up" such things, they must be expunged.
This can appear as punishment but it would be better to regard it as God's discipline.
"It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time at their pleasure, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it." (Heb 12:7-11).
"Having been disciplined a little, they will receive great good, because God tested them and found them worthy of himself; like gold in the furnace he tried them, and like a sacrificial burnt offering he accepted them." (Wis 3:5-6)
Purgatory is seen as a purification process where the disorders in us caused by sin are healed, where the lingering attachments to sin, such as pride, anger lust etc., and "bad attitudes" are cleared out, so that we can be pure and holy and fit to be in the presence of God. It is God's mercy to allow us to be purified before we enter his presence, as we could not bear to be in his presence unless we are pure and holy.
"Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God." (2Cor 7:1)
Purgatory is God's mercy, because without it we could not achieve the holiness necessary to enter heaven - the holiness without which no one will see the Lord" - at least most of us couldn't
Jesus dealt with the punishment for sin due to our offence against God. But when we sin we also damage ourselves because we fall into patterns of sin.
Each time we sin we turn away from God towards something in creation, something that we put before God. We can see this in the story of the rich young man in Mt 19:16-23. He was a good man, he kept the commandments, but he was too attracted by his money and his material possessions. When Jesus called him he turned away because he could not part from them.
There is also a further point in this incident. I think it is worth quoting it in full.
16 And behold, one came up to him, saying, "Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?"
17 And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments."
18 He said to him, "Which?" And Jesus said, "You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness,
19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
20 The young man said to him, "All these I have observed; what do I still lack?"
21 Jesus said to him, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."
22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions.
23 And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
In verse 16 he asks what is necessary to have eternal life – i.e. to be saved.
Jesus responds (verse 17-19) that he must keep the commandments – i.e. not sin.
The young man says he has done all this and asks what else (verse 20) and Jesus says (verse 21) that if he wishes to be perfect he should sell his possessions and give them to the poor. This is not about not sinning, but about becoming holy and perfect.
The young man could not bring himself to do this and turns away (verse 22)
Now Jesus comments that it will be hard for him to enter heaven (verse 23). He does not say he will not be able to and that he will go to hell because he is good and keeps the commandments, but that it will be hard. It will be hard because he has to become holy and perfect before he can enter heaven and the young man cannot bring himself to give up his attachments to his wealth. The young man is destined for heaven but Jesus is indicating that he will have to become perfect by being purified of his attachments to wealth. If he does not manage it on earth the only option left is in some intermediate state between death and entry into heaven. This is purgatory.
The key to this is repentance. This is what John the Baptist called for (Mt 3:3), what Jesus called for (Mt 4:17) and what Peter called for (Acts 2:38). Now repentance means turning back from the created things that attract us and back to God – 100%.
"[Jesus Christ] who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds." (Ti 2:14)
This purification is being made holy. It is a work of God, not our work. But we have to co-operate with God and do what we can to assist the process. It is not a passive thing. We can do this now in this part of our life, or we can do it after death in purgatory. But we must be fully holy before we can enter heaven.
To be continued...
Purgatory continued
Catholic belief:
The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. ..... The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire. (CCC 1031)
Scripture speaks of going through fire:
"thou didst let men ride over our heads; we went through fire [i.e. purgatory] and through water [i.e. baptism]; yet thou hast brought us forth to a spacious place.[ i.e. heaven]". (Psalm 66:12)
"when the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgment and by a spirit of burning [purgatory]." (Isaiah 4,4)
1Cor 3:10-17 is an important passage
10 "According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it."
11 "For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ."
12 "Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—"
13 "each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done."
14 "If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward."
15 "If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."
16 "Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you?"
17 "If any one destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and that temple you are."
In verses 10-13 Paul says that when we die our work will be judged. That work is both our good works and our bad works (sins) and that there will be reward or punishment according to these works.
Verse 14 is someone whose work stands. These are the good works, and those with only good works will go straight to heaven.
Verse 15 is someone whose works are burnt up (because they are bad) but the person themselves will be saved. The bad works (sins) were not serious enough to cut themselves off from God.
Verses 16-17 describe someone whose works are so bad that they have destroyed the temple where God dwells (their souls) and cut themselves off from God. God will destroy the person.
Now consider the second case (vs 15)
Someone can suffer loss as though fire but still be saved. There is something other than heaven or hell through which we can pass which will purify us (burn out our sins).
There are other texts that speak of this purifying fire:
"But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? "For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap." (Mal 3:2-3)
"In this you rejoice, though now for a little while you may have to suffer various trials, so that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold which though perishable is tested by fire, may redound to praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ." (1Pet 1:6-7)
There is some punishment remaining after sins have been forgiven
David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." And Nathan said to David, "The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the Lord, the child that is born to you shall die." Then Nathan went to his house. And the Lord struck the child that Uriah's wife bore to David, and it became sick. David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in and lay all night upon the ground. And the elders of his house stood beside him, to raise him from the ground; but he would not, nor did he eat food with them. On the seventh day the child died." (2 Sam 12:13-18)
God forgave David's sin but even after he was forgiven there was still punishment for his sin.
There is forgiveness of sin after death.
"And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." (Mt 12:32)
It implies there is forgiveness in the age to come."
What is this age to come where we can be forgiven sin? Heaven, Hell – or somewhere else?
We must be fully righteous before we are fit for heaven.
"but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1Jn 1:7-9)
If we are not fully righteous when we die then there is a final purification before we are fit to enter heaven. This is what Jesus won for us by the shedding of his blood.
There are also passages that make no sense in a heaven or hell only theology
"My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins." (Jas 5:19-20)
"Above all hold unfailing your love for one another, since love covers a multitude of sins." (1Pet 4:8)
I would like to publicly ask "Buster da Body Crab" to show evidence that winsome is either incorrect in every single one of his scriptural supports for purgatory or to issue a public apology for saying that purgatory is unscriptural.
: winsome Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 08:57:22
Catholic belief:
All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. (CCC 1030)
The basic argument for Purgatory is as follows:
1. God is holy and perfect, and He tells us to be holy and perfect as he is holy and perfect.
"...but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy." (1Pet 1:15-16)
"You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."(Mt 5:48)
2. Unless we are clean (holy and perfect) we will not enter heaven for a life of communion with God.
"But nothing unclean will enter it" [The new Jerusalem – Heaven] (Rev 21:27)
3. Unless we are holy we will not see God.
"Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord" (Heb 12;14)
4. When we are initially justified (I believe by baptism) God makes us holy and perfect.
"When the goodness and loving kindness of God our Saviour appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Saviour, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life." (Ti 3:4-7)
5. But during our life we sin which disfigures and soils our souls and from which we need cleansing to restore us the holiness and perfection necessary to enter heaven. This is an ongoing process of sin, repentance, and cleansing.
"Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God." (2Cor 7:1)
6. If we are not wholly clean, holy and perfect there must be some process whereby we can be cleansed and made holy and perfect. Scripture tells us there is:
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb 12:22-23)
This shows that there is a way, a process, whereby the spirits of just men are made perfect.
God in his mercy has provided a final purification process whereby we are made fit to enter his presence.
Catholics call this process Purgatory.
There is not even a suggestion that any of that final purification process whereby we are made fit to enter His presence occurs after death.
Even the thought that it is needed comes, I believe, from an imperfect concept of what it means to be saved, to be in Christ. What we have here is the other extreme to the false concept of once-saved-always-saved, namely, here were have a once-saved-but-never-really-saved, also false.
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 10:03:17
I would like to publicly ask "Buster da Body Crab" to show evidence that winsome is either incorrect in every single one of his scriptural supports for purgatory or to issue a public apology for saying that purgatory is unscriptural.
I would like you to apologize for calling me out here when I answered the challenge in the thread that was closed because this topic of Purgatory derailed it. A thread that you read! And now you presume to ignore the fact I answered in the other thread and so you wish to make a spectacle here.
So that there is no mistake or election to overlook the excerpt I provided in that aforementioned thread, along with the link to the full text article, I'll post it here for the benefit of everyone. Invoking Fair Use, for education purposes.
LINK:Question: "What does the Bible say about Purgatory?" (http://www.gotquestions.org/purgatory.html)
Answer: According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, Purgatory is "a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions." To summarize, in Catholic theology Purgatory is a place that a Christian's soul goes to after death to be cleansed of the sins that had not been fully satisfied during life. Is this doctrine of Purgatory in agreement with the Bible? Absolutely not!
Jesus died to pay the penalty for all of our sins (Romans 5:8). Isaiah 53:5 declares, "But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed." Jesus suffered for our sins so that we could be delivered from suffering. To say that we must also suffer for our sins is to say that Jesus' suffering was insufficient. To say that we must atone for our sins by cleansing in Purgatory is to deny the sufficiency of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus (1 John 2:2). The idea that we have to suffer for our sins after death is contrary to everything the Bible says about salvation.
The primary Scriptural passage Catholics point to for evidence of Purgatory is 1 Corinthians 3:15, which says, "If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames." The passage (1 Corinthians 3:12-15) is using an illustration of things going through fire as a description of believers' works being judged. If our works are of good quality "gold, sliver, costly stones," they will pass through the fire unharmed, and we will be rewarded for them. If our works are of poor quality "wood, hay, and straw," they will be consumed by the fire, and there will be no reward. The passage does not say that believers pass through the fire, but rather that a believer's works pass through the fire. 1 Corinthians 3:15 refers to the believer "escaping through the flames," not "being cleansed by the flames."
Purgatory, like many other Catholic dogmas, is based on a misunderstanding of the nature of Christ's sacrifice. Catholics view the Mass / Eucharist as a re-presentation of Christ's sacrifice because they fail to understand that Jesus' once-for-all sacrifice was absolutely and perfectly sufficient (Hebrews 7:27). Catholics view meritorious works as contributing to salvation due to a failure to recognize that Jesus' sacrificial payment has no need of additional "contribution" (Ephesians 2:8-9). Similarly, Purgatory is understood by Catholics as a place of cleansing in preparation for heaven because they do not recognize that because of Jesus' sacrifice, we are already cleansed, declared righteous, forgiven, redeemed, reconciled, and sanctified.
The very idea of Purgatory and the doctrines that are often attached to it (prayer for the dead, indulgences, meritorious works on behalf of the dead, etc.) all fail to recognize that Jesus' death was sufficient to pay the penalty for ALL of our sins. Jesus, who was God incarnate (John 1:1,14), paid an infinite price for our sin. Jesus died for our sins (1 Corinthians 15:3). Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for our sins (1 John 2:2). To limit Jesus' sacrifice to atoning for original sin, or sins committed before salvation, is an attack on the Person and Work of Jesus Christ. If we must in any sense pay for, atone for, or suffer because of our sins – that indicates Jesus' death was not a perfect, complete, and sufficient sacrifice.
For believers, after death is to be "away from the body and at home with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23). Notice that this does not say "away from the body, in Purgatory with the cleansing fire." No, because of the perfection, completion, and sufficiency of Jesus' sacrifice, we are immediately in the Lord's presence after death, fully cleansed, free from sin, glorified, perfected, and ultimately sanctified.
: 4WD Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 10:24:37
: winsome Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 08:57:22
Catholic belief:
All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. (CCC 1030)
The basic argument for Purgatory is as follows:
1. God is holy and perfect, and He tells us to be holy and perfect as he is holy and perfect.
"...but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy." (1Pet 1:15-16)
"You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."(Mt 5:48)
2. Unless we are clean (holy and perfect) we will not enter heaven for a life of communion with God.
"But nothing unclean will enter it" [The new Jerusalem – Heaven] (Rev 21:27)
3. Unless we are holy we will not see God.
"Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord" (Heb 12;14)
4. When we are initially justified (I believe by baptism) God makes us holy and perfect.
"When the goodness and loving kindness of God our Saviour appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Saviour, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life." (Ti 3:4-7)
5. But during our life we sin which disfigures and soils our souls and from which we need cleansing to restore us the holiness and perfection necessary to enter heaven. This is an ongoing process of sin, repentance, and cleansing.
"Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God." (2Cor 7:1)
6. If we are not wholly clean, holy and perfect there must be some process whereby we can be cleansed and made holy and perfect. Scripture tells us there is:
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb 12:22-23)
This shows that there is a way, a process, whereby the spirits of just men are made perfect.
God in his mercy has provided a final purification process whereby we are made fit to enter his presence.
Catholics call this process Purgatory.
There is not even a suggestion that any of that final purification process whereby we are made fit to enter His presence occurs after death.
Here is one:
Matthew 12:32
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
This verse implies that there are other sins that will be forgiven in the next life. A la purgatory.
Also winsome quoted 1 Cor. 3:10-15:
10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
This refers to "the Day" which is an allusion to the day of judgment. Works being burned up are sinful works, just like in purgatory. "They will be saved" just like all in purgatory.
Matthew 5
25 "Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.
This verse speaks of the adversary, which is easily understood spiritually as to be an allusion to the devil. A prison can easily be understood as some place other than heaven, and could easily be purgatory. "You will not get out UNTIL you have paid the last penny" which shows that in fact once the last penny is paid, they will get out.
Purgatory is a place where people go who have been granted mercy through Jesus' sacrifice, which paid for us the eternal penalty for our sins, but who have not satisfied the temporal punishment for sins. No person could get to heaven apart from Jesus' work; no amount of suffering in hell or purgatory could make up for that eternal punishment which Jesus took upon himself. But we still suffer for our sins and do in fact suffer temporal consequences for our sins, and they must be burned up so that we can be made perfect, either in this life or, if we are not perfect at the moment of our death, after death, in order to be righteous and pure enough for heaven.
Purgatory doesn't negate or belittle what Jesus did on the cross. Rather it magnifies the value of the reward that heaven is and does so justly. God wants us to be perfect as he is perfect and he is merciful enough to make a way for that to be accomplished.
Even the thought that it is needed comes, I believe, from an imperfect concept of what it means to be saved, to be in Christ. What we have here is the other extreme to the false concept of once-saved-always-saved, namely, here were have a once-saved-but-never-really-saved, also false.
: Buster D Body Crab Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 10:40:51
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 10:03:17
I would like to publicly ask "Buster da Body Crab" to show evidence that winsome is either incorrect in every single one of his scriptural supports for purgatory or to issue a public apology for saying that purgatory is unscriptural.
I would like you to apologize for calling me out here when I answered the challenge in the thread that was closed because this topic of Purgatory derailed it. A thread that you read! And now you presume to ignore the fact I answered in the other thread and so you wish to make a spectacle here.
So that there is no mistake or election to overlook the excerpt I provided in that aforementioned thread, along with the link to the full text article, I'll post it here for the benefit of everyone. Invoking Fair Use, for education purposes.
LINK:Question: "What does the Bible say about Purgatory?" (http://www.gotquestions.org/purgatory.html)
Answer: According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, Purgatory is "a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions." To summarize, in Catholic theology Purgatory is a place that a Christian's soul goes to after death to be cleansed of the sins that had not been fully satisfied during life. Is this doctrine of Purgatory in agreement with the Bible? Absolutely not!
Jesus died to pay the penalty for all of our sins (Romans 5:8). Isaiah 53:5 declares, "But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed." Jesus suffered for our sins so that we could be delivered from suffering. To say that we must also suffer for our sins is to say that Jesus' suffering was insufficient. To say that we must atone for our sins by cleansing in Purgatory is to deny the sufficiency of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus (1 John 2:2). The idea that we have to suffer for our sins after death is contrary to everything the Bible says about salvation.
The primary Scriptural passage Catholics point to for evidence of Purgatory is 1 Corinthians 3:15, which says, "If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames." The passage (1 Corinthians 3:12-15) is using an illustration of things going through fire as a description of believers' works being judged. If our works are of good quality "gold, sliver, costly stones," they will pass through the fire unharmed, and we will be rewarded for them. If our works are of poor quality "wood, hay, and straw," they will be consumed by the fire, and there will be no reward. The passage does not say that believers pass through the fire, but rather that a believer's works pass through the fire. 1 Corinthians 3:15 refers to the believer "escaping through the flames," not "being cleansed by the flames."
Purgatory, like many other Catholic dogmas, is based on a misunderstanding of the nature of Christ's sacrifice. Catholics view the Mass / Eucharist as a re-presentation of Christ's sacrifice because they fail to understand that Jesus' once-for-all sacrifice was absolutely and perfectly sufficient (Hebrews 7:27). Catholics view meritorious works as contributing to salvation due to a failure to recognize that Jesus' sacrificial payment has no need of additional "contribution" (Ephesians 2:8-9). Similarly, Purgatory is understood by Catholics as a place of cleansing in preparation for heaven because they do not recognize that because of Jesus' sacrifice, we are already cleansed, declared righteous, forgiven, redeemed, reconciled, and sanctified.
The very idea of Purgatory and the doctrines that are often attached to it (prayer for the dead, indulgences, meritorious works on behalf of the dead, etc.) all fail to recognize that Jesus' death was sufficient to pay the penalty for ALL of our sins. Jesus, who was God incarnate (John 1:1,14), paid an infinite price for our sin. Jesus died for our sins (1 Corinthians 15:3). Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for our sins (1 John 2:2). To limit Jesus' sacrifice to atoning for original sin, or sins committed before salvation, is an attack on the Person and Work of Jesus Christ. If we must in any sense pay for, atone for, or suffer because of our sins – that indicates Jesus' death was not a perfect, complete, and sufficient sacrifice.
For believers, after death is to be "away from the body and at home with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23). Notice that this does not say "away from the body, in Purgatory with the cleansing fire." No, because of the perfection, completion, and sufficiency of Jesus' sacrifice, we are immediately in the Lord's presence after death, fully cleansed, free from sin, glorified, perfected, and ultimately sanctified.
This is a typical Protestant tactic. Instead of actually addressing the points made - make some other point and claim job done!
: Buster D Body Crab Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 10:40:51
LINK:Question: "What does the Bible say about Purgatory?" (http://www.gotquestions.org/purgatory.html)
Answer:According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, Purgatory is "a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions." To summarize, in Catholic theology Purgatory is a place that a Christian's soul goes to after death to be cleansed of the sins that had not been fully satisfied during life. Is this doctrine of Purgatory in agreement with the Bible? Absolutely not!
Winsome has shown that it is. This article does not show that it is not.
: Buster D Body Crab Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 10:40:51Jesus died to pay the penalty for all of our sins (Romans 5:8).
Romans 5:8 But God proves his love for us in that while we were still sinners Christ died for us.
If the author wants to show that Jesus died to pay the penalty for all of our sins, Romans 5:8 is not helping him. Jesus died to pay the eternal penalty. We are called in the gospels to "repent and do works worthy of repentance". We still suffer temporally as consequence for our sins, and we do so for good reason.
: Buster D Body Crab Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 10:40:51Isaiah 53:5 declares, "But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed." Jesus suffered for our sins so that we could be delivered from suffering. To say that we must also suffer for our sins is to say that Jesus' suffering was insufficient.
Paul says that he "makes up for what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ". (Col. 1:24) Paul sees that something is "lacking in the sufferings of Christ". Why can't the author? He is not here to answer. Maybe you can answer?
"By his wounds we are healed" is absolutely true, but it doesn't say exactly how that manifests in reality. Even accepting Christ's suffering for our sins we see that there is still something very wrong with our soul, that we are still inclined to sin. From the beginning it was not so.
The way we are "healed" is through partaking in the sufferings of Christ. It is through that union of our suffering with Christ's suffering that we are healed.
To say that we must atone for our sins by cleansing in Purgatory is to deny the sufficiency of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus (1 John 2:2). The idea that we have to suffer for our sins after death is contrary to everything the Bible says about salvation.
The author needs to make up his mind. Does he believe that we suffer for our sins
before death? Why do we suffer for our sins, if Jesus' atoning sacrifice took away all suffering for our sins? Rather, Jesus' atoning sacrifice took away the
eternal punishment for our sins. In that act he made atonement. Anyone who is in purgatory is in Christ Jesus and so is in an imperfect state of being "at one". Their will is being molded to be truly at one with God's will. We cannot be at one with God wholly, until our will is at one with God. Otherwise it is only a real-but-imperfect reconciliation.
: Buster D Body Crab Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 10:40:51The primary Scriptural passage Catholics point to for evidence of Purgatory is 1 Corinthians 3:15, which says, "If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames." The passage (1 Corinthians 3:12-15) is using an illustration of things going through fire as a description of believers' works being judged. If our works are of good quality "gold, sliver, costly stones," they will pass through the fire unharmed, and we will be rewarded for them. If our works are of poor quality "wood, hay, and straw," they will be consumed by the fire, and there will be no reward. The passage does not say that believers pass through the fire, but rather that a believer's works pass through the fire. 1 Corinthians 3:15 refers to the believer "escaping through the flames," not "being cleansed by the flames."
As winsome has shown, and this article fails to acknowledge, that there is wide evidence for purgatory both in scripture and even belief that precedes Jesus and still exists in some parts of Judaism today that involves praying for the dead.
This passage from this article seems to deny that sin actually puts a stain on our soul. Winsome has posted at least one scripture that shows that we are to "cleanse ourselves". That means 1) we need cleansing and 2) we need to take part in the process ourselves, that Jesus doesn't do it all for us. The above verse isn't the only passage that shows the necessity of purgatory; it is one among many which this article doesn't respond to. Taken as a whole one can easily see how purgatory fits into the whole of scripture and is very scriptural. His interpretation of 1 Cor. 3:15, put quite simply, is wrong; it's false.
This part I've edited to deal with his scriptural arguments apart from his "poisoning the well" so that we can see more clarity without his opinion involved.
...Jesus' once-for-all sacrifice was absolutely and perfectly sufficient (Hebrews 7:27)....
Hebrews 7
27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.
This doesn't say what the author says it did. This is simply stating that the OT sacrifices are now put away because the sacrifice of Jesus replaces them. It doesn't say what exactly the sacrifice was sufficient for. The author implies his own opinion (something that he hasn't proved) is the answer, but doesn't support it.
Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient to redeem us but it is clear from scripture and experience that we still suffer consequence for sins that is the Father chastising us. If we are perfect, then why would the Father chastise? Is this punishment without purpose? Is that what Christians are supposed to believe?
Catholics view meritorious works as contributing to salvation due to a failure to recognize that Jesus' sacrificial payment has no need of additional "contribution" (Ephesians 2:8-9).
His sizing up of Catholic theology is lacking because he doesn't take into account that his definition of grace is not only different from ours, but also not reconcilable with the Bible.
Grace is not Unmerited Favor (http://www.thoughtsfromgod.com/index.php?p=1_98_Grace-Not-Unmerited-Favor)
Similarly, Purgatory is understood by Catholics as a place of cleansing in preparation for heaven because they do not recognize that because of Jesus' sacrifice, we are already cleansed, declared righteous, forgiven, redeemed, reconciled, and sanctified.
No scriptural support given, but plenty to the contrary provided by winsome.
For believers, after death is to be "away from the body and at home with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23). Notice that this does not say "away from the body, in Purgatory with the cleansing fire." No, because of the perfection, completion, and sufficiency of Jesus' sacrifice, we are immediately in the Lord's presence after death, fully cleansed, free from sin, glorified, perfected, and ultimately sanctified.
2 Corinthians 5
6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 For we live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
I would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. And I would also prefer to be away from work and at home with my family. Soon I will be away from work, but the long drive exists between me and my family. The statement in 2 Corinthians 6:8 doesn't demonstrate that when we are away from the body, the only other place to be is at home with the Lord.
Philippians 1
23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far;
Likewise I desire to depart from work and be with my family. In the same way, Paul's statement doesn't show that there isn't a step between. The author wants it to be that way, but the verse doesn't show it. You can't use a premise to demonstrate a conclusion.
The rest of his statement is an an unsupported statement.
There, now maybe you can try something similar with winsome's posts. Let's hear it.
Some more scriptures:
"And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and wise steward, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time? Blessed is that servant whom his master when he comes will find so doing. Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. But if that servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will punish him, and put him with the unfaithful. And that servant who knew his master's will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating. But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating." (Lk 12:42-48)
Where will some be beaten heavily and some lightly when Jesus returns? Not heaven because we aren't beaten there. Not hell because the Master won't be in hell.
And
"But he gives more grace; therefore it says, 'God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.' Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. Draw near to God and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you men of double mind. Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to dejection. Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will exalt you." (Jas 4:6-10)
It is God's mercy to give us the opportunity to purify our hearts if we have not fully done so on this earth.
When do we get to heaven?
Where is Christ right now?
: doorknocker Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 12:25:14
When do we get to heaven?
Where is Christ right now?
Perhaps you want to start a new thread or address the topic at hand in a more direct way?
Here is another verse to ponder. This "away from the body and at home with the Lord" statement is then soon followed by this:
2 Cor. 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
We receive what is due to us for the things done while in the body after we die. If we sin, we receive our merciful and just punishment for sins. (bad things done while in the body). If we do works according to God's will, we receive reward for those works (good things done while in the body). EACH of us receives what is due us.
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 12:13:25
: Buster D Body Crab Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 10:40:51
LINK:Question: "What does the Bible say about Purgatory?" (http://www.gotquestions.org/purgatory.html)
Answer:According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, Purgatory is "a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions." To summarize, in Catholic theology Purgatory is a place that a Christian's soul goes to after death to be cleansed of the sins that had not been fully satisfied during life. Is this doctrine of Purgatory in agreement with the Bible? Absolutely not!
Winsome has shown that it is. This article does not show that it is not.
You asked for scriptures regarding Purgatory and that it does not exist. I have done that.
Again, Purgatory, by definition of the authority of the Roman Catholic Church, is a place where venial sins after life are to be purged, sinners are expiating their venial sins before being allowed into Heaven. Given the tradition of confession to Priests, and penance while alive on earth for sins confessed, it appears there is more to do according to Roman Catholic tradition in matters of atonement even after death.
This atonement and suffering after death, doing penance, repeals the work of Jesus on the cross. He who died and took the sins of the world upon himself. And those who accept him as savior, hold faith in the message of the cross and by the grace of God, are redeemed. God remembers their sins no more. They are new creatures in this life. And when they confess sins, because we are still in this world though not of it, it is to God alone with no mortal emissary, per the scriptures.
Neither Winsome nor yourself prove that Purgatory exists in scripture.
Rather, Purgatory is an essential Roman Catholic philosophy.And what you are arguing as Catholics is the doctrine espoused by the Roman Catholic church.
Not all people are Roman Catholic and as such the membership on this forum who may be new to Christianity or are seekers of the way of the Lord could be misled in thinking all of Christendom believes in Purgatory, teaches Purgatory.
Since this is not scripturally sound nor true of all Christians and/or Christian denominations accept that Purgatory exists, the article I provided aptly refutes that ideology.
The Roman Catholic church believes in Purgatory. That does not mean that Christians outside of the authority and dictates of the Roman Catholic church do. And the scriptures in that article give them ample reason to understand why.
Thank you.
Edited to Add: For those Christians who may have missed the full article copied and pasted here prior to this reply:
Question: "What does the Bible say about Purgatory?" (http://www.gotquestions.org/purgatory.html)
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 12:46:45
Here is another verse to ponder. This "away from the body and at home with the Lord" statement is then soon followed by this:
2 Cor. 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
We receive what is due to us for the things done while in the body after we die. If we sin, we receive our merciful and just punishment for sins. (bad things done while in the body). If we do works according to God's will, we receive reward for those works (good things done while in the body). EACH of us receives what is due us.
Tell me if I have asked God for forgiveness for all my sins and God has forgiven me and if I were to
die at that moment, would God again bring up those sins that He has forgiven me and judge me on them?
Jeremiah 31, 34
And no longer shall each man teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, "Know the Lord", for
they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the Lord;
for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
you say,
we receive what is due to us for the things done while in the body after we die
2 Corinthians 5, 10 makes no mention that this is to be 'after we die'
1 Peter 4, 17
For the time hascome for judgement to begin with the household of God, and
if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God.
Judgement Peter is talking about is present tense not a future event after we die
: Buster D Body Crab Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 13:07:37
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 12:13:25
: Buster D Body Crab Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 10:40:51
LINK:Question: "What does the Bible say about Purgatory?" (http://www.gotquestions.org/purgatory.html)
Answer:According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, Purgatory is "a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions." To summarize, in Catholic theology Purgatory is a place that a Christian's soul goes to after death to be cleansed of the sins that had not been fully satisfied during life. Is this doctrine of Purgatory in agreement with the Bible? Absolutely not!
Winsome has shown that it is. This article does not show that it is not.
You asked for scriptures regarding Purgatory and that it does not exist. I have done that.
Again, Purgatory, by definition of the authority of the Roman Catholic Church, is a place where venial sins after life are to be purged, sinners are expiating their venial sins before being allowed into Heaven. Given the tradition of confession to Priests, and penance while alive on earth for sins confessed, it appears there is more to do according to Roman Catholic tradition in matters of atonement even after death.
This atonement and suffering after death, doing penance, repeals the work of Jesus on the cross. He who died and took the sins of the world upon himself. And those who accept him as savior, hold faith in the message of the cross and by the grace of God, are redeemed. God remembers their sins no more. They are new creatures in this life. And when they confess sins, because we are still in this world though not of it, it is to God alone with no mortal emissary, per the scriptures.
Neither Winsome nor yourself prove that Purgatory exists in scripture.
Rather, Purgatory is an essential Roman Catholic philosophy.And what you are arguing as Catholics is the doctrine espoused by the Roman Catholic church.
Not all people are Roman Catholic and as such the membership on this forum who may be new to Christianity or are seekers of the way of the Lord could be misled in thinking all of Christendom believes in Purgatory, teaches Purgatory.
Since this is not scripturally sound nor true of all Christians and/or Christian denominations accept that Purgatory exists, the article I provided aptly refutes that ideology.
The Roman Catholic church believes in Purgatory. That does not mean that Christians outside of the authority and dictates of the Roman Catholic church do. And the scriptures in that article give them ample reason to understand why.
Thank you.
Edited to Add: For those Christians who may have missed the full article copied and pasted here prior to this reply: Question: "What does the Bible say about Purgatory?" (http://www.gotquestions.org/purgatory.html)
Apart from your faulty understanding of the atonement you are placing too much emphasis on the word "punishment" in the Catholic Encyclopedia article.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I quoted, says:
All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. (CCC 1030)
There is no mention there of punishment but purification. Moreover Purgatory is not defined as a place but as a process.
The Catechism continues:
The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. the tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.(Mt 12:31-32)
There is mention of punishment elsewhere but this should be seen in terms of the purification necessary to free us from attachment to created things:
.....every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. (CCC 1472).
My second post explained this in detail with scriptural support.
: doorknocker Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 13:42:53
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 12:46:45
Here is another verse to ponder. This "away from the body and at home with the Lord" statement is then soon followed by this:
2 Cor. 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
We receive what is due to us for the things done while in the body after we die. If we sin, we receive our merciful and just punishment for sins. (bad things done while in the body). If we do works according to God's will, we receive reward for those works (good things done while in the body). EACH of us receives what is due us.
Tell me if I have asked God for forgiveness for all my sins and God has forgiven me and if I were to
die at that moment, would God again bring up those sins that He has forgiven me and judge me on them?
Jeremiah 31, 34
And no longer shall each man teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, "Know the Lord", for
they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the Lord;
for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
you say,
we receive what is due to us for the things done while in the body after we die
2 Corinthians 5, 10 makes no mention that this is to be 'after we die'
1 Peter 4, 17
For the time hascome for judgement to begin with the household of God, and
if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God.
Judgement Peter is talking about is present tense not a future event after we die
Sin has three effects:
1. Sin damages (or completely breaks) our relationship with God
2. Sin (normally) has some bad effect on other people
3. Sin spiritually weakens and damages the sinner.
When we seek forgiveness from God and are forgiven, this addresses point 1. Our relationship is restored. This is what Jesus did for us.
But points 2 & 3 remain. We need to make restitution (if possible) and – with God's grace – address the disorder in ourselves.
Here is a simple example
If my neighbour parks badly outside my house, and block me from getting my car onto my drive, I may lose my temper, smash his car window in my frustration.
I've committed a sin.
I repent and ask God to forgive me. He does, but:
My neighbour still has a damaged car.
I've given in to my bad temper yet again!
If I don't recompense my neighbour am I fit for heaven?
If I don't do something about curbing my temper am I fit for heaven?
It's this last one that is the most important (of these two). We must be pure and holy to be fit for heaven.
As I said in my second post:
Purgatory is seen as a purification process where the disorders in us caused by sin are healed, where the lingering attachments to sin, such as pride, anger lust etc., and "bad attitudes" are cleared out, so that we can be pure and holy and fit to be in the presence of God. It is God's mercy to allow us to be purified before we enter his presence, as we could not bear to be in his presence unless we are pure and holy.
"Since we have these promises, beloved,
let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God." (2Cor 7:1)
Purgatory is God's mercy, because without it we could not achieve the holiness necessary to enter heaven – "the holiness without which no one will see the Lord" (Heb 12:14) - at least most of us couldn't
: Buster D Body Crab Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 13:07:37
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 12:13:25
: Buster D Body Crab Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 10:40:51
LINK:Question: "What does the Bible say about Purgatory?" (http://www.gotquestions.org/purgatory.html)
Answer:According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, Purgatory is "a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions." To summarize, in Catholic theology Purgatory is a place that a Christian's soul goes to after death to be cleansed of the sins that had not been fully satisfied during life. Is this doctrine of Purgatory in agreement with the Bible? Absolutely not!
Winsome has shown that it is. This article does not show that it is not.
You asked for scriptures regarding Purgatory and that it does not exist. I have done that.
I did not ask for "scriptures regarding Purgatory that it does not exist". I asked for you to "to show evidence that winsome is ...incorrect in every single one of his scriptural supports for purgatory"
which you haven't done. What you did post has been refuted as false.
: Buster D Body Crab Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 13:07:37Again, Purgatory, by definition of the authority of the Roman Catholic Church, is a place where venial sins after life are to be purged, sinners are expiating their venial sins before being allowed into Heaven. Given the tradition of confession to Priests, and penance while alive on earth for sins confessed, it appears there is more to do according to Roman Catholic tradition in matters of atonement even after death.
Sure, Roman Catholic teaching in concert with biblical demonstration, which winsome provided. When we give scripture, what makes you think, as a Bible Christian, that you can ignore it?
This atonement and suffering after death, doing penance, repeals the work of Jesus on the cross.
No it doesn't. As has been explained.
He who died and took the sins of the world upon himself. And those who accept him as savior, hold faith in the message of the cross and by the grace of God, are redeemed. God remembers their sins no more. They are new creatures in this life. And when they confess sins, because we are still in this world though not of it, it is to God alone with no mortal emissary, per the scriptures.
Still no answer to the scriptures provided.
Neither Winsome nor yourself prove that Purgatory exists in scripture.
Yes, we do.
Rather, Purgatory is an essential Roman Catholic philosophy.And what you are arguing as Catholics is the doctrine espoused by the Roman Catholic church.
True. A true doctrine.
Not all people are Roman Catholic and as such the membership on this forum who may be new to Christianity or are seekers of the way of the Lord could be misled in thinking all of Christendom believes in Purgatory, teaches Purgatory.
Right, not all Christians believe in the fullness of the truth, but they should.
Since this is not scripturally sound nor true of all Christians and/or Christian denominations accept that Purgatory exists, the article I provided aptly refutes that ideology.
Purgatory is very scripturally sound. The article you provided has been refuted and is false.
The Roman Catholic church believes in Purgatory. That does not mean that Christians outside of the authority and dictates of the Roman Catholic church do. And the scriptures in that article give them ample reason to understand why.
The scriptures that only we have provided show why they should. Why any Christian would not respond to so much biblical evidence they have to decide for themselves. Purgatory exists whether they believe in it or not. It is better to believe in that which is true and there in the Bible, as purgatory is.
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 14:17:05
: Buster D Body Crab Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 13:07:37
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 12:13:25
: Buster D Body Crab Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 10:40:51
LINK:Question: "What does the Bible say about Purgatory?" (http://www.gotquestions.org/purgatory.html)
Answer:According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, Purgatory is "a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions." To summarize, in Catholic theology Purgatory is a place that a Christian's soul goes to after death to be cleansed of the sins that had not been fully satisfied during life. Is this doctrine of Purgatory in agreement with the Bible? Absolutely not!
Winsome has shown that it is. This article does not show that it is not.
You asked for scriptures regarding Purgatory and that it does not exist. I have done that.
I did not ask for "scriptures regarding Purgatory that it does not exist". I asked for you to "to show evidence that winsome is ...incorrect in every single one of his scriptural supports for purgatory"
I shall hold you in my prayers.
: winsome Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 14:14:05
: doorknocker Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 13:42:53
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 12:46:45
Here is another verse to ponder. This "away from the body and at home with the Lord" statement is then soon followed by this:
2 Cor. 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
We receive what is due to us for the things done while in the body after we die. If we sin, we receive our merciful and just punishment for sins. (bad things done while in the body). If we do works according to God's will, we receive reward for those works (good things done while in the body). EACH of us receives what is due us.
Tell me if I have asked God for forgiveness for all my sins and God has forgiven me and if I were to
die at that moment, would God again bring up those sins that He has forgiven me and judge me on them?
Jeremiah 31, 34
And no longer shall each man teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, "Know the Lord", for
they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the Lord;
for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
you say,
we receive what is due to us for the things done while in the body after we die
2 Corinthians 5, 10 makes no mention that this is to be 'after we die'
1 Peter 4, 17
For the time hascome for judgement to begin with the household of God, and
if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God.
Judgement Peter is talking about is present tense not a future event after we die
Sin has three effects:
1. Sin damages (or completely breaks) our relationship with God
2. Sin (normally) has some bad effect on other people
3. Sin spiritually weakens and damages the sinner.
When we seek forgiveness from God and are forgiven, this addresses point 1. Our relationship is restored. This is what Jesus did for us.
But points 2 & 3 remain. We need to make restitution (if possible) and – with God's grace – address the disorder in ourselves.
Here is a simple example
If my neighbour parks badly outside my house, and block me from getting my car onto my drive, I may lose my temper, smash his car window in my frustration.
I've committed a sin.
I repent and ask God to forgive me. He does, but:
My neighbour still has a damaged car.
I've given in to my bad temper yet again!
If I don't recompense my neighbour am I fit for heaven?
If I don't do something about curbing my temper am I fit for heaven?
It's this last one that is the most important (of these two). We must be pure and holy to be fit for heaven.
As I said in my second post:
Purgatory is seen as a purification process where the disorders in us caused by sin are healed, where the lingering attachments to sin, such as pride, anger lust etc., and "bad attitudes" are cleared out, so that we can be pure and holy and fit to be in the presence of God. It is God's mercy to allow us to be purified before we enter his presence, as we could not bear to be in his presence unless we are pure and holy.
"Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God." (2Cor 7:1)
Purgatory is God's mercy, because without it we could not achieve the holiness necessary to enter heaven – "the holiness without which no one will see the Lord" (Heb 12:14) - at least most of us couldn't
What your are talking about in your 3 points is very basic.
Any one truly born of the Spirit of God is being perfected in this now and if not, I have doubts whether
that person is truly born again.
Point 2 and 3 is for here right now.
: doorknocker Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 13:42:53
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 12:46:45
Here is another verse to ponder. This "away from the body and at home with the Lord" statement is then soon followed by this:
2 Cor. 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
We receive what is due to us for the things done while in the body after we die. If we sin, we receive our merciful and just punishment for sins. (bad things done while in the body). If we do works according to God's will, we receive reward for those works (good things done while in the body). EACH of us receives what is due us.
Tell me if I have asked God for forgiveness for all my sins and God has forgiven me and if I were to
die at that moment, would God again bring up those sins that He has forgiven me and judge me on them?
Jeremiah 31, 34
And no longer shall each man teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, "Know the Lord", for
they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the Lord;
for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
No, he wouldn't.
If you have sins on your soul that you have not repented of and God has not forgiven, would God judge you on them? Say you repented of some sins and not others, or say you have committed sins since you repented last?
I'm not really interested in anyone else but doorknocker's answer to this question. If he wants to go on a tangent it is too hard to discuss the thousands of different beliefs that might be present on this board.
you say,
we receive what is due to us for the things done while in the body after we die
2 Corinthians 5, 10 makes no mention that this is to be 'after we die'.
1 Peter 4, 17
For the time hascome for judgement to begin with the household of God, and
if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God.
Judgement Peter is talking about is present tense not a future event after we die
Peter is speaking of judgment starting now. He doesn't say that it ends once a person dies.
Hebrews 9:27
Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
We face consequences for our sins now AND after we die. God is just and merciful; purgatory is where the two meet.
: Buster D Body Crab Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 14:24:12
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 14:17:05
: Buster D Body Crab Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 13:07:37
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 12:13:25
: Buster D Body Crab Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 10:40:51
LINK:Question: "What does the Bible say about Purgatory?" (http://www.gotquestions.org/purgatory.html)
Answer:According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, Purgatory is "a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions." To summarize, in Catholic theology Purgatory is a place that a Christian's soul goes to after death to be cleansed of the sins that had not been fully satisfied during life. Is this doctrine of Purgatory in agreement with the Bible? Absolutely not!
Winsome has shown that it is. This article does not show that it is not.
You asked for scriptures regarding Purgatory and that it does not exist. I have done that.
I did not ask for "scriptures regarding Purgatory that it does not exist". I asked for you to "to show evidence that winsome is ...incorrect in every single one of his scriptural supports for purgatory"
I shall hold you in my prayers.
Yes thank you. But if you would be much obliged, please respond to winsome's biblical support.
: winsome Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 14:14:05
: doorknocker Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 13:42:53
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 12:46:45
Here is another verse to ponder. This "away from the body and at home with the Lord" statement is then soon followed by this:
2 Cor. 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
We receive what is due to us for the things done while in the body after we die. If we sin, we receive our merciful and just punishment for sins. (bad things done while in the body). If we do works according to God's will, we receive reward for those works (good things done while in the body). EACH of us receives what is due us.
Tell me if I have asked God for forgiveness for all my sins and God has forgiven me and if I were to
die at that moment, would God again bring up those sins that He has forgiven me and judge me on them?
Jeremiah 31, 34
And no longer shall each man teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, "Know the Lord", for
they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the Lord;
for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
you say,
we receive what is due to us for the things done while in the body after we die
2 Corinthians 5, 10 makes no mention that this is to be 'after we die'
1 Peter 4, 17
For the time hascome for judgement to begin with the household of God, and
if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God.
Judgement Peter is talking about is present tense not a future event after we die
Sin has three effects:
1. Sin damages (or completely breaks) our relationship with God
2. Sin (normally) has some bad effect on other people
3. Sin spiritually weakens and damages the sinner.
When we seek forgiveness from God and are forgiven, this addresses point 1. Our relationship is restored. This is what Jesus did for us.
But points 2 & 3 remain. We need to make restitution (if possible) and – with God's grace – address the disorder in ourselves.
Here is a simple example
If my neighbour parks badly outside my house, and block me from getting my car onto my drive, I may lose my temper, smash his car window in my frustration.
I've committed a sin.
I repent and ask God to forgive me. He does, but:
My neighbour still has a damaged car.
I've given in to my bad temper yet again!
If I don't recompense my neighbour am I fit for heaven?
If I don't do something about curbing my temper am I fit for heaven?
It's this last one that is the most important (of these two). We must be pure and holy to be fit for heaven.
As I said in my second post:
Purgatory is seen as a purification process where the disorders in us caused by sin are healed, where the lingering attachments to sin, such as pride, anger lust etc., and "bad attitudes" are cleared out, so that we can be pure and holy and fit to be in the presence of God. It is God's mercy to allow us to be purified before we enter his presence, as we could not bear to be in his presence unless we are pure and holy.
"Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God." (2Cor 7:1)
Purgatory is God's mercy, because without it we could not achieve the holiness necessary to enter heaven – "the holiness without which no one will see the Lord" (Heb 12:14) - at least most of us couldn't
1 Peter 4, 1-2
Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves with the same thought, for whoever has suffered in the flesh
has ceased from sin, so as to live for the rest of the time in the flesh no longer by human passions but by the will of God.
: doorknocker Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 14:33:05
1 Peter 4: 1-2
Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves with the same thought, for whoever has suffered in the flesh
has ceased from sin, so as to live for the rest of the time in the flesh no longer by human passions but by the will of God.
Isn't the apostle Peter wonderful there? ::smile::
Like unto the scriptures regarding our reconciliation with God in that linked article scripture and its full passage in 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 and going futher in the "More" link attached to that article scripture reference. Particularly these verses:
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18 All this is from God, lwho through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.And then there is John 1:1-14 in that article (Posted link here for reference) (http://www.gotquestions.org/purgatory.html)
And 1 John 2:2 wherein we are blessed to read that Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, the propitiation for our sins and that of the world.
1 Corinthians 15:3(AMP) For I passed on to you first of all what I also had received, that Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One) died for our sins in accordance with [what] the Scriptures [foretold],
Nothing there about how Christ did not pay it all and we believers have to suffer after death to finish our debt. Christ be praised! What an awesome message is the grace of God.
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 14:27:32
: doorknocker Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 13:42:53
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 12:46:45
Here is another verse to ponder. This "away from the body and at home with the Lord" statement is then soon followed by this:
2 Cor. 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
We receive what is due to us for the things done while in the body after we die. If we sin, we receive our merciful and just punishment for sins. (bad things done while in the body). If we do works according to God's will, we receive reward for those works (good things done while in the body). EACH of us receives what is due us.
Tell me if I have asked God for forgiveness for all my sins and God has forgiven me and if I were to
die at that moment, would God again bring up those sins that He has forgiven me and judge me on them?
Jeremiah 31, 34
And no longer shall each man teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, "Know the Lord", for
they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the Lord;
for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
No, he wouldn't.
If you have sins on your soul that you have not repented of and God has not forgiven, would God judge you on them? Say you repented of some sins and not others, or say you have committed sins since you repented last?
I'm not really interested in anyone else but doorknocker's answer to this question. If he wants to go on a tangent it is too hard to discuss the thousands of different beliefs that might be present on this board.
you say,
we receive what is due to us for the things done while in the body after we die
2 Corinthians 5, 10 makes no mention that this is to be 'after we die'.
1 Peter 4, 17
For the time hascome for judgement to begin with the household of God, and
if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God.
Judgement Peter is talking about is present tense not a future event after we die
Peter is speaking of judgment starting now. He doesn't say that it ends once a person dies.
Hebrews 9:27
Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
We face consequences for our sins now AND after we die. God is just and merciful; purgatory is where the two meet.
If there are unrepentant sins in my life that I haven't asked forgiveness for, then I would not be able to fellowship with
God.
If you had unrepentant sins in your life, let me ask you why you would not ask for forgiveness?
Hebrews 9, 27
For just as it is appointed for all men to die once, and after that comes judgement.
Romans 6, 7-11
For he who has died is freed from sin.
But if we died with Christ,we believe that we shall also
live with Him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion
over Him. The death He died He died to sin, once and for all, but the life He lives He lives to God.
So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
It is appointed for all men to die once,.......Have you died with Christ?
And after that comes judgement. 1 Peter 4, 17
For the time has come for judgement to begin with the household of God.
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 10:47:39
: 4WD Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 10:24:37
: winsome Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 08:57:22
Catholic belief:
All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. (CCC 1030)
The basic argument for Purgatory is as follows:
1. God is holy and perfect, and He tells us to be holy and perfect as he is holy and perfect.
"...but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy." (1Pet 1:15-16)
"You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."(Mt 5:48)
2. Unless we are clean (holy and perfect) we will not enter heaven for a life of communion with God.
"But nothing unclean will enter it" [The new Jerusalem – Heaven] (Rev 21:27)
3. Unless we are holy we will not see God.
"Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord" (Heb 12;14)
4. When we are initially justified (I believe by baptism) God makes us holy and perfect.
"When the goodness and loving kindness of God our Saviour appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Saviour, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life." (Ti 3:4-7)
5. But during our life we sin which disfigures and soils our souls and from which we need cleansing to restore us the holiness and perfection necessary to enter heaven. This is an ongoing process of sin, repentance, and cleansing.
"Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God." (2Cor 7:1)
6. If we are not wholly clean, holy and perfect there must be some process whereby we can be cleansed and made holy and perfect. Scripture tells us there is:
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb 12:22-23)
This shows that there is a way, a process, whereby the spirits of just men are made perfect.
God in his mercy has provided a final purification process whereby we are made fit to enter his presence.
Catholics call this process Purgatory.
There is not even a suggestion that any of that final purification process whereby we are made fit to enter His presence occurs after death.
Here is one:
Matthew 12:32
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
This verse implies that there are other sins that will be forgiven in the next life. A la purgatory.
No it doesn't. It says that sin, namely speaking against the Holy Spirit, will never be forgiven - period. That is all it says.
: doorknocker Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 15:16:42
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 14:27:32
: doorknocker Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 13:42:53
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 12:46:45
Here is another verse to ponder. This "away from the body and at home with the Lord" statement is then soon followed by this:
2 Cor. 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
We receive what is due to us for the things done while in the body after we die. If we sin, we receive our merciful and just punishment for sins. (bad things done while in the body). If we do works according to God's will, we receive reward for those works (good things done while in the body). EACH of us receives what is due us.
Tell me if I have asked God for forgiveness for all my sins and God has forgiven me and if I were to
die at that moment, would God again bring up those sins that He has forgiven me and judge me on them?
Jeremiah 31, 34
And no longer shall each man teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, "Know the Lord", for
they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the Lord;
for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
No, he wouldn't.
If you have sins on your soul that you have not repented of and God has not forgiven, would God judge you on them? Say you repented of some sins and not others, or say you have committed sins since you repented last?
I'm not really interested in anyone else but doorknocker's answer to this question. If he wants to go on a tangent it is too hard to discuss the thousands of different beliefs that might be present on this board.
you say,
we receive what is due to us for the things done while in the body after we die
2 Corinthians 5, 10 makes no mention that this is to be 'after we die'.
1 Peter 4, 17
For the time hascome for judgement to begin with the household of God, and
if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God.
Judgement Peter is talking about is present tense not a future event after we die
Peter is speaking of judgment starting now. He doesn't say that it ends once a person dies.
Hebrews 9:27
Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
We face consequences for our sins now AND after we die. God is just and merciful; purgatory is where the two meet.
If there are unrepentant sins in my life that I haven't asked forgiveness for, then I would not be able to fellowship with
God.
If you had unrepentant sins in your life, let me ask you why you would not ask for forgiveness?
Not every Christian is continuously repenting of sins they have committed. They might do so once a day, or once in awhile. Not being unrepentant, mind you, but not actually praying repentance to God or asking for forgiveness for them.
For example let's say that there was a Christian somewhere who, in a fit of road rage (it happens) loses his temper and calls someone something degrading. And then he is instantly T-boned by a freight train and dies. No repentance occurred. Now what?
Hebrews 9, 27
For just as it is appointed for all men to die once, and after that comes judgement.
Romans 6, 7-11
For he who has died is freed from sin. But if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also
live with Him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion
over Him. The death He died He died to sin, once and for all, but the life He lives He lives to God.
So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
It is appointed for all men to die once,.......Have you died with Christ?
Not the way they are speaking of in Hebrews, not yet. The way Paul is referring to here, yes, I have died in this way. And now I try to die to myself daily.
And after that comes judgement. 1 Peter 4, 17
For the time has come for judgement to begin with the household of God.
The two verses refer to different things. We can't put together any old verses in the Bible, or else the following would be valid:
Matthew 27:5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.
Luke 10:37b Go, and do likewise.
The judgment is something that happens to the dead:
Revelation 20:13
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
I wish I were surprised that there are no non-Catholic rebuking you on your view on judgment, but I'm not.
: 4WD Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 15:41:52
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 10:47:39
: 4WD Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 10:24:37
: winsome Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 08:57:22
Catholic belief:
All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. (CCC 1030)
The basic argument for Purgatory is as follows:
1. God is holy and perfect, and He tells us to be holy and perfect as he is holy and perfect.
"...but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy." (1Pet 1:15-16)
"You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."(Mt 5:48)
2. Unless we are clean (holy and perfect) we will not enter heaven for a life of communion with God.
"But nothing unclean will enter it" [The new Jerusalem – Heaven] (Rev 21:27)
3. Unless we are holy we will not see God.
"Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord" (Heb 12;14)
4. When we are initially justified (I believe by baptism) God makes us holy and perfect.
"When the goodness and loving kindness of God our Saviour appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Saviour, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life." (Ti 3:4-7)
5. But during our life we sin which disfigures and soils our souls and from which we need cleansing to restore us the holiness and perfection necessary to enter heaven. This is an ongoing process of sin, repentance, and cleansing.
"Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God." (2Cor 7:1)
6. If we are not wholly clean, holy and perfect there must be some process whereby we can be cleansed and made holy and perfect. Scripture tells us there is:
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb 12:22-23)
This shows that there is a way, a process, whereby the spirits of just men are made perfect.
God in his mercy has provided a final purification process whereby we are made fit to enter his presence.
Catholics call this process Purgatory.
There is not even a suggestion that any of that final purification process whereby we are made fit to enter His presence occurs after death.
Here is one:
Matthew 12:32
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
This verse implies that there are other sins that will be forgiven in the next life. A la purgatory.
No it doesn't. It says that sin, namely speaking against the Holy Spirit, will never be forgiven - period. That is all it says.
No, it's not all it says.
The Jews at the time believed in praying for the dead. Even if one doesn't accept the books of Maccabees inspired works, even the Jews will admit that they are historically accurate. And in them there is witness that Judas prayed for some men who had died with idols on their person in the hopes that they could be freed from their sins after death.
That is the context with which the Jews believed and that Jesus was speaking in. Thereby, Jesus was saying that even though some sins are forgiven after death, this one will not be.
I ask you as well, if you sin immediately before you die and have no chance to repent of that sin, how is your sin forgiven?
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 15:43:58
Not every Christian is continuously repenting of sins they have committed. They might do so once a day, or once in awhile. Not being unrepentant, mind you, but not actually praying repentance to God or asking for forgiveness for them.
For example let's say that there was a Christian somewhere who, in a fit of road rage (it happens) loses his temper and calls someone something degrading. And then he is instantly T-boned by a freight train and dies. No repentance occurred. Now what?
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
Rom 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.It is a real shame that you do not truly understand what it means to be in Christ Jesus.
: 4WD Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 15:50:35
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 15:43:58
Not every Christian is continuously repenting of sins they have committed. They might do so once a day, or once in awhile. Not being unrepentant, mind you, but not actually praying repentance to God or asking for forgiveness for them.
For example let's say that there was a Christian somewhere who, in a fit of road rage (it happens) loses his temper and calls someone something degrading. And then he is instantly T-boned by a freight train and dies. No repentance occurred. Now what?
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
Rom 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
It is a real shame that you do not truly understand what it means to be in Christ Jesus.
Is this Christian charity?
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 15:51:58
: 4WD Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 15:50:35
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 15:43:58
Not every Christian is continuously repenting of sins they have committed. They might do so once a day, or once in awhile. Not being unrepentant, mind you, but not actually praying repentance to God or asking for forgiveness for them.
For example let's say that there was a Christian somewhere who, in a fit of road rage (it happens) loses his temper and calls someone something degrading. And then he is instantly T-boned by a freight train and dies. No repentance occurred. Now what?
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
Rom 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
It is a real shame that you do not truly understand what it means to be in Christ Jesus.
Is this Christian charity?
Charity?? No. It is Christian truth.
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 15:43:58
: doorknocker Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 15:16:42
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 14:27:32
: doorknocker Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 13:42:53
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 12:46:45
Here is another verse to ponder. This "away from the body and at home with the Lord" statement is then soon followed by this:
2 Cor. 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
We receive what is due to us for the things done while in the body after we die. If we sin, we receive our merciful and just punishment for sins. (bad things done while in the body). If we do works according to God's will, we receive reward for those works (good things done while in the body). EACH of us receives what is due us.
Tell me if I have asked God for forgiveness for all my sins and God has forgiven me and if I were to
die at that moment, would God again bring up those sins that He has forgiven me and judge me on them?
Jeremiah 31, 34
And no longer shall each man teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, "Know the Lord", for
they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the Lord;
for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
No, he wouldn't.
If you have sins on your soul that you have not repented of and God has not forgiven, would God judge you on them? Say you repented of some sins and not others, or say you have committed sins since you repented last?
I'm not really interested in anyone else but doorknocker's answer to this question. If he wants to go on a tangent it is too hard to discuss the thousands of different beliefs that might be present on this board.
you say,
we receive what is due to us for the things done while in the body after we die
2 Corinthians 5, 10 makes no mention that this is to be 'after we die'.
1 Peter 4, 17
For the time hascome for judgement to begin with the household of God, and
if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God.
Judgement Peter is talking about is present tense not a future event after we die
Peter is speaking of judgment starting now. He doesn't say that it ends once a person dies.
Hebrews 9:27
Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
We face consequences for our sins now AND after we die. God is just and merciful; purgatory is where the two meet.
If there are unrepentant sins in my life that I haven't asked forgiveness for, then I would not be able to fellowship with
God.
If you had unrepentant sins in your life, let me ask you why you would not ask for forgiveness?
Not every Christian is continuously repenting of sins they have committed. They might do so once a day, or once in awhile. Not being unrepentant, mind you, but not actually praying repentance to God or asking for forgiveness for them.
For example let's say that there was a Christian somewhere who, in a fit of road rage (it happens) loses his temper and calls someone something degrading. And then he is instantly T-boned by a freight train and dies. No repentance occurred. Now what?
Hebrews 9, 27
For just as it is appointed for all men to die once, and after that comes judgement.
Romans 6, 7-11
For he who has died is freed from sin. But if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also
live with Him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion
over Him. The death He died He died to sin, once and for all, but the life He lives He lives to God.
So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
It is appointed for all men to die once,.......Have you died with Christ?
Not the way they are speaking of in Hebrews, not yet. The way Paul is referring to here, yes, I have died in this way. And now I try to die to myself daily.
And after that comes judgement. 1 Peter 4, 17
For the time has come for judgement to begin with the household of God.
The two verses refer to different things. We can't put together any old verses in the Bible, or else the following would be valid:
Matthew 27:5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.
Luke 10:37b Go, and do likewise.
The judgment is something that happens to the dead:
Revelation 20:13
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
I wish I were surprised that there are no non-Catholic rebuking you on your view on judgment, but I'm not.
Judgement, this is what Jesus said in John 5, 24
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life; he does not come
into judgement, but has passed from death to life.
: doorknocker Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 15:58:31
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 15:43:58
: doorknocker Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 15:16:42
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 14:27:32
: doorknocker Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 13:42:53
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 12:46:45
Here is another verse to ponder. This "away from the body and at home with the Lord" statement is then soon followed by this:
2 Cor. 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
We receive what is due to us for the things done while in the body after we die. If we sin, we receive our merciful and just punishment for sins. (bad things done while in the body). If we do works according to God's will, we receive reward for those works (good things done while in the body). EACH of us receives what is due us.
Tell me if I have asked God for forgiveness for all my sins and God has forgiven me and if I were to
die at that moment, would God again bring up those sins that He has forgiven me and judge me on them?
Jeremiah 31, 34
And no longer shall each man teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, "Know the Lord", for
they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the Lord;
for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
No, he wouldn't.
If you have sins on your soul that you have not repented of and God has not forgiven, would God judge you on them? Say you repented of some sins and not others, or say you have committed sins since you repented last?
I'm not really interested in anyone else but doorknocker's answer to this question. If he wants to go on a tangent it is too hard to discuss the thousands of different beliefs that might be present on this board.
you say,
we receive what is due to us for the things done while in the body after we die
2 Corinthians 5, 10 makes no mention that this is to be 'after we die'.
1 Peter 4, 17
For the time hascome for judgement to begin with the household of God, and
if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God.
Judgement Peter is talking about is present tense not a future event after we die
Peter is speaking of judgment starting now. He doesn't say that it ends once a person dies.
Hebrews 9:27
Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
We face consequences for our sins now AND after we die. God is just and merciful; purgatory is where the two meet.
If there are unrepentant sins in my life that I haven't asked forgiveness for, then I would not be able to fellowship with
God.
If you had unrepentant sins in your life, let me ask you why you would not ask for forgiveness?
Not every Christian is continuously repenting of sins they have committed. They might do so once a day, or once in awhile. Not being unrepentant, mind you, but not actually praying repentance to God or asking for forgiveness for them.
For example let's say that there was a Christian somewhere who, in a fit of road rage (it happens) loses his temper and calls someone something degrading. And then he is instantly T-boned by a freight train and dies. No repentance occurred. Now what?
Hebrews 9, 27
For just as it is appointed for all men to die once, and after that comes judgement.
Romans 6, 7-11
For he who has died is freed from sin. But if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also
live with Him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion
over Him. The death He died He died to sin, once and for all, but the life He lives He lives to God.
So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
It is appointed for all men to die once,.......Have you died with Christ?
Not the way they are speaking of in Hebrews, not yet. The way Paul is referring to here, yes, I have died in this way. And now I try to die to myself daily.
And after that comes judgement. 1 Peter 4, 17
For the time has come for judgement to begin with the household of God.
The two verses refer to different things. We can't put together any old verses in the Bible, or else the following would be valid:
Matthew 27:5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.
Luke 10:37b Go, and do likewise.
The judgment is something that happens to the dead:
Revelation 20:13
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
I wish I were surprised that there are no non-Catholic rebuking you on your view on judgment, but I'm not.
Judgement, this is what Jesus said in John 5, 24
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life; he does not come
into judgement, but has passed from death to life.
Doorknocker, that verse speaks of the regeneration of the believer, the resurrection of the spirit dead in trespass and sins. It is not about judgment at the second coming of Christ. We know that because verse 25 defines the time,
Joh 5:25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the [spiritually] dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will [spiritually] live. Verses 28-29 speak of the judgment at the second coming.
Joh 5:28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
Joh 5:29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
: 4WD Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 15:58:06
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 15:51:58
: 4WD Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 15:50:35
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 15:43:58
Not every Christian is continuously repenting of sins they have committed. They might do so once a day, or once in awhile. Not being unrepentant, mind you, but not actually praying repentance to God or asking for forgiveness for them.
For example let's say that there was a Christian somewhere who, in a fit of road rage (it happens) loses his temper and calls someone something degrading. And then he is instantly T-boned by a freight train and dies. No repentance occurred. Now what?
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
Rom 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
It is a real shame that you do not truly understand what it means to be in Christ Jesus.
Is this Christian charity?
Charity?? No. It is Christian truth.
What exactly were you trying to say? I believe all of the Bible. You have to explain how you think it applies.
: doorknocker Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 15:16:42
If there are unrepentant sins in my life that I haven't asked forgiveness for, then I would not be able to fellowship with
God.
If you had unrepentant sins in your life, let me ask you why you would not ask for forgiveness?
Hebrews 9, 27
For just as it is appointed for all men to die once, and after that comes judgement.
Romans 6, 7-11
For he who has died is freed from sin. But if we died with Christ,we believe that we shall also
live with Him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion
over Him. The death He died He died to sin, once and for all, but the life He lives He lives to God.
So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
It is appointed for all men to die once,.......Have you died with Christ?
And after that comes judgement. 1 Peter 4, 17
For the time has come for judgement to begin with the household of God.
True.
Christians come before the Judgment or Bema seat of God to account for their lives as members of the universal church of God in Christ.
That is not the same as those who died lost in their sins and who answer for that and their life before the Great White Throne of Judgment.
The Bema seat is not a place where we are judged worthy of Hell. It is where we account of our lives as those reborn in Christ.
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 16:08:37
: 4WD Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 15:58:06
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 15:51:58
: 4WD Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 15:50:35
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 15:43:58
Not every Christian is continuously repenting of sins they have committed. They might do so once a day, or once in awhile. Not being unrepentant, mind you, but not actually praying repentance to God or asking for forgiveness for them.
For example let's say that there was a Christian somewhere who, in a fit of road rage (it happens) loses his temper and calls someone something degrading. And then he is instantly T-boned by a freight train and dies. No repentance occurred. Now what?
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
Rom 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
It is a real shame that you do not truly understand what it means to be in Christ Jesus.
Is this Christian charity?
Charity?? No. It is Christian truth.
What exactly were you trying to say? I believe all of the Bible. You have to explain how you think it applies.
It was an answer to you hypothetical about the man T-boned and killed before he had a chance to repent. If he is a Christian, then he is/was in Christ. And in Christ there is therefore now no condemnation. I say again, no condemnation for those who are in Christ.
The Catholic view, apparently, is that one is "in Christ" only when the last sin committed has been "absolved" by a priest following confession. But of course that doesn't even guarantee that he will make it out of the door of the church before he is no longer in Christ.. Forgiven is not something that God does again and again and again. Forgiven is a state, a condition of being in Christ. Baptism for the forgiveness of sin is not something that is good only to the next occurrence of some sin.
There is no purgatory. Not that I can find in the Bible.
My Catholic Encyclopedia says that it is a "Eschatological idea." not proven in Scripture but decided on by some men based on how they read a scripture.
Its importance is it's theological significance, and NOT it's factual existence. (C. Encyclopedia page 502, under purgatory)
It cannot be proven real even by Catholics who believe in it. But, it was formed in the mind of men based on what they thought at the Council of Trent.
Where they were most likely drunk if you ask me.
If there is grace there is no place for Purgatory. If there is Purgatory, there is no place for grace. You cannot have it both ways, Jesus Blood covering is enough or it isn't. It's called "Faith".
: 4WD Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 16:53:22
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 16:08:37
: 4WD Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 15:58:06
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 15:51:58
: 4WD Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 15:50:35
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 15:43:58
Not every Christian is continuously repenting of sins they have committed. They might do so once a day, or once in awhile. Not being unrepentant, mind you, but not actually praying repentance to God or asking for forgiveness for them.
For example let's say that there was a Christian somewhere who, in a fit of road rage (it happens) loses his temper and calls someone something degrading. And then he is instantly T-boned by a freight train and dies. No repentance occurred. Now what?
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
Rom 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
It is a real shame that you do not truly understand what it means to be in Christ Jesus.
Is this Christian charity?
Charity?? No. It is Christian truth.
What exactly were you trying to say? I believe all of the Bible. You have to explain how you think it applies.
It was an answer to you hypothetical about the man T-boned and killed before he had a chance to repent. If he is a Christian, then he is/was in Christ. And in Christ there is therefore now no condemnation. I say again, no condemnation for those who are in Christ.
The Catholic view, apparently, is that one is "in Christ" only when the last sin committed has been "absolved" by a priest following confession. But of course that doesn't even guarantee that he will make it out of the door of the church before he is no longer in Christ.. Forgiven is not something that God does again and again and again. Forgiven is a state, a condition of being in Christ. Baptism for the forgiveness of sin is not something that is good only to the next occurrence of some sin.
"If he is a Christian, then he is/was in Christ". So from your post I take it that you believe that a person who becomes a Christian can sin with impunity? Or if he does, then he was not a Christian in the first place, right? What about a person who does really well for a while and then "returns to his sin like a dog to his own vomit"? This can happen to
anyone. They weren't a Christian in the first place then right?
What a horrible cycle that becomes. To deny the truth, that Christians can return to abject sin through their own will. Tell me you believe something else.
If you think about the above scenario, then no Christian can know whether he is in Christ or not at any particular time, because in the future he is fully capable of returning to a sinful life. He might, or he might not. If he does, then he has to believe that he was never a Christian in the first place. But then once he "becomes one (again)" he doesn't know for sure if he is this time or not.
Once we admit that we sin and know the truth about sins through which, through an act of our own will, "cut us off from the vine", then we can get past the trap above. And those sins are "mortal sins", referred to in the Bible (1 John 5:16-17) as "deadly sins". Those people in mortal sin were once "in Christ Jesus" but are no more "in Christ Jesus".
Thereby your verse which refers to people "in Christ Jesus" refers to those who have not cut themselves off from the throne of grace. And for them, even with venial sin on their soul, there is "no condemnation".
So regardless of the above statement, those souls who go to purgatory have "no condemnation" because they are "in Christ Jesus". They
all go to heaven. So hopefully you can see, that Catholic teaching is perfectly in accord with this passage from Romans.
The problem is not with Catholic doctrine. The problem here is that you believe that all your future sins are forgiven without repenting. It's simply not true.
Revelation 2
1 "To the angel of the church in Ephesus write:
These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands.
2 I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false.
3 You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary.
4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first.
5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first.
If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.
: kensington Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 17:24:41
There is no purgatory. Not that I can find in the Bible.
My Catholic Encyclopedia says that it is a "Eschatological idea." not proven in Scripture but decided on by some men based on how they read a scripture.
Its importance is it's theological significance, and NOT it's factual existence. (C. Encyclopedia page 502, under purgatory)
It cannot be proven real even by Catholics who believe in it. But, it was formed in the mind of men based on what they thought at the Council of Trent.
Where they were most likely drunk if you ask me.
If there is grace there is no place for Purgatory. If there is Purgatory, there is no place for grace. You cannot have it both ways, Jesus Blood covering is enough or it isn't. It's called "Faith".
An "eschatological idea" huh? That one I haven't heard before. Interesting, can you give me the ISBN of your Catholic Encyclopedia? Or the Title, Publication date, or a link on Amazon?
Rather than saying "It cannot be proven real even by Catholics" you might try reading winsome's original posts and perhaps respond to that.
"Most likely drunk" is what they said of the apostles on the day of Pentecost, of Hannah when she was praying to God. And Jesus was called a drunkard. So we thank you for that compliment.
Purgatory is grace indeed. What grace is not is "unmerited favor".
Grace is not unmerited favor (http://www.thoughtsfromgod.com/index.php?p=1_98_Grace-Not-Unmerited-Favor).
Well Catholica, that is one way to twist it. ::doh:: And, since we know that Catholicism is based on "works" earning God's favor, I can see why you would say that.
The reality is be it with or without merits involved, grace is still a gift from a Loving God to those whom His son has redeem through His blood sacrifice at Calvary.
https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1279-true-meaning-of-grace-the (https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1279-true-meaning-of-grace-the)
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 17:46:17
: 4WD Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 16:53:22
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 16:08:37
: 4WD Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 15:58:06
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 15:51:58
: 4WD Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 15:50:35
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 15:43:58
Not every Christian is continuously repenting of sins they have committed. They might do so once a day, or once in awhile. Not being unrepentant, mind you, but not actually praying repentance to God or asking for forgiveness for them.
For example let's say that there was a Christian somewhere who, in a fit of road rage (it happens) loses his temper and calls someone something degrading. And then he is instantly T-boned by a freight train and dies. No repentance occurred. Now what?
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
Rom 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
It is a real shame that you do not truly understand what it means to be in Christ Jesus.
Is this Christian charity?
Charity?? No. It is Christian truth.
What exactly were you trying to say? I believe all of the Bible. You have to explain how you think it applies.
It was an answer to you hypothetical about the man T-boned and killed before he had a chance to repent. If he is a Christian, then he is/was in Christ. And in Christ there is therefore now no condemnation. I say again, no condemnation for those who are in Christ.
The Catholic view, apparently, is that one is "in Christ" only when the last sin committed has been "absolved" by a priest following confession. But of course that doesn't even guarantee that he will make it out of the door of the church before he is no longer in Christ.. Forgiven is not something that God does again and again and again. Forgiven is a state, a condition of being in Christ. Baptism for the forgiveness of sin is not something that is good only to the next occurrence of some sin.
"If he is a Christian, then he is/was in Christ". So from your post I take it that you believe that a person who becomes a Christian can sin with impunity?
Rom 5:20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
Rom 5:21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
Rom 6:2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?You seem not to understand the difference between living in sin and committing sin. We all commit sin. But we do not live in sin. There is a reason that those in Christ, even though they do commit sin (Rom 7:12ff), are never called sinners in the Bible.
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 17:46:17
: 4WD Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 16:53:22
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 16:08:37
: 4WD Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 15:58:06
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 15:51:58
: 4WD Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 15:50:35
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 15:43:58
Not every Christian is continuously repenting of sins they have committed. They might do so once a day, or once in awhile. Not being unrepentant, mind you, but not actually praying repentance to God or asking for forgiveness for them.
For example let's say that there was a Christian somewhere who, in a fit of road rage (it happens) loses his temper and calls someone something degrading. And then he is instantly T-boned by a freight train and dies. No repentance occurred. Now what?
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
Rom 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
It is a real shame that you do not truly understand what it means to be in Christ Jesus.
Is this Christian charity?
Charity?? No. It is Christian truth.
What exactly were you trying to say? I believe all of the Bible. You have to explain how you think it applies.
It was an answer to you hypothetical about the man T-boned and killed before he had a chance to repent. If he is a Christian, then he is/was in Christ. And in Christ there is therefore now no condemnation. I say again, no condemnation for those who are in Christ.
The Catholic view, apparently, is that one is "in Christ" only when the last sin committed has been "absolved" by a priest following confession. But of course that doesn't even guarantee that he will make it out of the door of the church before he is no longer in Christ.. Forgiven is not something that God does again and again and again. Forgiven is a state, a condition of being in Christ. Baptism for the forgiveness of sin is not something that is good only to the next occurrence of some sin.
Once we admit that we sin and know the truth about sins through which, through an act of our own will, "cut us off from the vine", then we can get past the trap above. And those sins are "mortal sins", referred to in the Bible (1 John 5:16-17) as "deadly sins". Those people in mortal sin were once "in Christ Jesus" but are no more "in Christ Jesus".
We are not saved by works; rather we are saved by grace through faith. We are not lost through works or lack thereof; rather we are lost through unbelief. The danger of continuing to sin is not the sin but that sooner or later we will give up our faith in order to continue to live in sin. When that faith has gone, then we are once again lost through unbelief (Rom 11:19ff).
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 17:46:17
The problem is not with Catholic doctrine. The problem here is that you believe that all your future sins are forgiven without repenting. It's simply not true.
I said nothing about not repenting. But faith in Christ, so long as it is active, drives one to repentance. But that does not mean that one is lost until he repents. You spoke earlier about a horrible cycle. The horrible cycle is the fear of a believing Christian that he might die and still have a sin that has not been forgiven and therefore will not see eternal life with Christ in heaven. He sins, he thinks he is lost, he confesses, receives absolution only to go through that cycle again and again. I have seen that fear once to often. It comes from bad theology and bad teaching.
: kensington Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 18:17:19
Well Catholica, that is one way to twist it. ::doh:: And, since we know that Catholicism is based on "works" earning God's favor, I can see why you would say that.
The reality is be it with or without merits involved, grace is still a gift from a Loving God to those whom His son has redeem through His blood sacrifice at Calvary.
https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1279-true-meaning-of-grace-the (https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1279-true-meaning-of-grace-the)
Did you forget to post the ISBN of your Catholic encyclopedia book?
It's not twisting grace at all. Try replacing "grace" with unmerited favor some time. It doesn't work, not in the Bible.
Defining grace as "unmerited favor" is a protestant invention. Grace is actually the power of God to live the life of Christ. It is true that it is offered to us by God freely, however in order to receive it we must choose to accept it, and by accepting it we are enabled to not sin and also do the will of God. When we resist sin and do the will of God, God is pleased, and so we merit reward in heaven. When we refuse the gift of grace and choose to sin and choose to do our own will instead of God's we merit chastisement and punishment. In mercy God doesn't punish us completely as we aught, and in mercy God offers us the grace (power) to live as we ought because we are weak vessels. In justice God decides of his own accord to reward us when we merit it, and in justice sin demands punishment for our sins.
Because God is both merciful and just, in mercy even if we sin, yet still live in Christ, in sanctifying grace, God judges us saved when we die, and will bring us to heaven. In justice, which is fairness and righteousness, we still pay for our sins, not the eternal punishment which we deserve (because of Christ's sacrifice) but still some punishment and chastisement for the purpose of healing us from our wounds and purifying us like gold in a furnace.
Purgatory is the perfect combination of God's mercy and justice for those who have been saved by cooperating with God's saving grace.
: 4WD Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 19:46:28
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 17:46:17
The problem is not with Catholic doctrine. The problem here is that you believe that all your future sins are forgiven without repenting. It's simply not true.
I said nothing about not repenting. But faith in Christ, so long as it is active, drives one to repentance. But that does not mean that one is lost until he repents. You spoke earlier about a horrible cycle. The horrible cycle is the fear of a believing Christian that he might die and still have a sin that has not been forgiven and therefore will not see eternal life with Christ in heaven. He sins, he thinks he is lost, he confesses, receives absolution only to go through that cycle again and again. I have seen that fear once to often. It comes from bad theology and bad teaching.
Ok, so a person must repent. Why? If his sins are forgiven, why must he repent? In your theology, repentance is superfluous.
There is good fear and bad fear. If a person commits a mortal sin and thinks that he is lost, he might be! So that is a good fear because it is reasonable. If he is struggling against sin, that is what God wants. What is much worse is that a person sins but his conscience is dulled to the severity of his sin. He goes merrily along the way to hell and finds himself there at the end of his life. The sinner who repents will be saved. The sinner who commits mortal sin post baptism and does not repent will be damned.
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 21:29:28
: kensington Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 18:17:19
Well Catholica, that is one way to twist it. ::doh:: And, since we know that Catholicism is based on "works" earning God's favor, I can see why you would say that.
The reality is be it with or without merits involved, grace is still a gift from a Loving God to those whom His son has redeem through His blood sacrifice at Calvary.
https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1279-true-meaning-of-grace-the (https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1279-true-meaning-of-grace-the)
Did you forget to post the ISBN of your Catholic encyclopedia book?
It's not twisting grace at all. Try replacing "grace" with unmerited favor some time. It doesn't work, not in the Bible.
Defining grace as "unmerited favor" is a protestant invention. Grace is actually the power of God to live the life of Christ. It is true that it is offered to us by God freely, however in order to receive it we must choose to accept it, and by accepting it we are enabled to not sin and also do the will of God. When we resist sin and do the will of God, God is pleased, and so we merit reward in heaven. When we refuse the gift of grace and choose to sin and choose to do our own will instead of God's we merit chastisement and punishment. In mercy God doesn't punish us completely as we aught, and in mercy God offers us the grace (power) to live as we ought because we are weak vessels. In justice God decides of his own accord to reward us when we merit it, and in justice sin demands punishment for our sins.
Because God is both merciful and just, in mercy even if we sin, yet still live in Christ, in sanctifying grace, God judges us saved when we die, and will bring us to heaven. In justice, which is fairness and righteousness, we still pay for our sins, not the eternal punishment which we deserve (because of Christ's sacrifice) but still some punishment and chastisement for the purpose of healing us from our wounds and purifying us like gold in a furnace.
Purgatory is the perfect combination of God's mercy and justice for those who have been saved by cooperating with God's saving grace.
Except that its not in anyway scriptural as has been pointed out countless times on this forum Once someone has died they are heading to their eternal destination, heaven or hell. There is no mid way place. We are saved through the blood of Jesus.
: Brother Johan Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 22:34:31
: notreligus Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 22:20:29
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 10:03:17
I would like to publicly ask "Buster da Body Crab" to show evidence that winsome is either incorrect in every single one of his scriptural supports for purgatory or to issue a public apology for saying that purgatory is unscriptural.
(deleted due to rule violation in removed post(
Just curious, you say that Paul needed three more years to receive teaching and revelation from Christ,
where did you come up with the three more years?
Many have this concept that Paul was converted and immediately began to make his missionary journeys. Not so.
Understanding the timing requires a study of Paul's life and the timing of his missionary journeys. Start with the Book of Galatians.
Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
Gal 1:2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:
Gal 1:3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
Gal 1:5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Gal 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
Gal 1:14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
Gal 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
Gal 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
Gal 1:19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.
Gal 1:20 Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not.
Gal 1:21 Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia;
Gal 1:22 And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ:
Gal 1:23 But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.
Gal 1:24 And they glorified God in me.
Gal 2:1 Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.
Gal 2:2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.
Gal 2:3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:
Gal 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
Gal 2:5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.
Gal 2:6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person:) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:
Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
Gal 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)
Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
Gal 2:10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.
Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
Gal 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
Gal 2:13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
Gal 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Many years passed before the Apostle Paul began his missionary journeys. The Jews of the Jerusalem, the Palestinian Jews (i.e. Peter), focused on the Palestinian Jews. The Diaspora Jews had long worshipped in synagogues in the major cities. The Disaspora began after the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities, not after A.D. 70. Paul had a Hellenist background having been raised in Tarsus and he taught the Hellenist Jews, proselytes, the God-fearers, and the Gentiles, all of those that the Palestinian Jews had not reached. Paul was seen as one who was trying to undo what the Jerusalem Jews had done and he saw them as those who were trying to stop his efforts of teaching the Gospel of Christ to the Greeks.
: chosenone Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 23:20:23
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 21:29:28
: kensington Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 18:17:19
Well Catholica, that is one way to twist it. ::doh:: And, since we know that Catholicism is based on "works" earning God's favor, I can see why you would say that.
The reality is be it with or without merits involved, grace is still a gift from a Loving God to those whom His son has redeem through His blood sacrifice at Calvary.
https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1279-true-meaning-of-grace-the (https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1279-true-meaning-of-grace-the)
Did you forget to post the ISBN of your Catholic encyclopedia book?
It's not twisting grace at all. Try replacing "grace" with unmerited favor some time. It doesn't work, not in the Bible.
Defining grace as "unmerited favor" is a protestant invention. Grace is actually the power of God to live the life of Christ. It is true that it is offered to us by God freely, however in order to receive it we must choose to accept it, and by accepting it we are enabled to not sin and also do the will of God. When we resist sin and do the will of God, God is pleased, and so we merit reward in heaven. When we refuse the gift of grace and choose to sin and choose to do our own will instead of God's we merit chastisement and punishment. In mercy God doesn't punish us completely as we aught, and in mercy God offers us the grace (power) to live as we ought because we are weak vessels. In justice God decides of his own accord to reward us when we merit it, and in justice sin demands punishment for our sins.
Because God is both merciful and just, in mercy even if we sin, yet still live in Christ, in sanctifying grace, God judges us saved when we die, and will bring us to heaven. In justice, which is fairness and righteousness, we still pay for our sins, not the eternal punishment which we deserve (because of Christ's sacrifice) but still some punishment and chastisement for the purpose of healing us from our wounds and purifying us like gold in a furnace.
Purgatory is the perfect combination of God's mercy and justice for those who have been saved by cooperating with God's saving grace.
Except that its not in anyway scriptural as has been pointed out countless times on this forum Once someone has died they are heading to their eternal destination, heaven or hell. There is no mid way place. We are saved through the blood of Jesus.
If you read my first three posts you will find that Purgatory is very much scriptural. So far people have dodged around and avoided answering them.
At least when Thomas doubted and said that "unless I put my finger into the hole in his side I won't believe" and Jesus showed up with holes, he believed. People on here have winsome show up with scripture demonstrating purgatory and still they claim that purgatory isn't scriptural.
I don't think you all actually go by the Bible as your final authority at all. Or give it any authority at all actually. You believe whoever you want. If scripture were your final authority then you could not so easily ignore and pass over what winsome wrote. But it's not your final authority.
: 4WD Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 19:37:22
We are not lost through works or lack thereof; rather we are lost through unbelief.
Really?
Then what is Matthew :25-31-46 all about?
There is no mention of faith but of works. And those who did no works are sent to eternal damnation.
James also makes it very clear that belief is not enough. Even the demons believe he says and then continues: "Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?" (Jas 2:20).
Jesus gave us two overarching commandments:
Love God
Love neighbour
The works that Jesus refers to in Mt 25 and James refers to in James 2 are works of love.
Paul says:
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but
faith working through love. (Gal 5:6)
And gives some examples:
"For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh,
but through love be servants of one another." (Gal 5:13)
"with all lowliness and meekness, with patience,
forbearing one another in love" (Eph 4:2)
Paul also says:
if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains,
but have not love, I am nothing.(1Cor 13:2)
Love never ends says St. Paul (1 Cor 13:8). In heaven what else will there be. "So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.". (1 Cor 13:13), and in heaven there will be no need of faith for we will be in the presence of God; there will be no need for hope because we will have attained all that we hoped for.
All that we will need is perfect love, and indeed nothing else. All else besides love, that which detracts from love, that is less than love must be left behind. There can be no anger, hate, lust, greed, jealousy, pride, covetousness, or any such thing. It is not enough to "cover up" such things, they must be expunged.
Or as Paul put it: Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, with all malice, (Eph 4:31).
: winsome Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 04:39:55If you read my first three posts you will find that Purgatory is very much scriptural. So far people have dodged around and avoided answering them.
I would go one on one with any RCC, or EOC on this subject. I did read your post in the beginning, and see not one thing that would present a problem with a person who understands the word of God. I am not going to be a part of this mess, where so many people who have different beliefs are saying things, much that makes no sense and cannot be supported with the word of God.
Where is Thaddeus? Why does he not come here and show his true colors? Purgatory is a lie. Your vain attempt to prove that others have similar doctrine, only saying it in another way, is only a device being used in order to support your doctrine that the scriptures will not support. Does the Catholic forum have a section designed to debate one on one? If so, then I would come there to debate you on this subject. You can post again your three post, and I will start with the first one.
: Catholica Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 04:49:44
At least when Thomas doubted and said that "unless I put my finger into the hole in his side I won't believe" and Jesus showed up with holes, he believed. People on here have winsome show up with scripture demonstrating purgatory and still they claim that purgatory isn't scriptural.
I don't think you all actually go by the Bible as your final authority at all. Or give it any authority at all actually. You believe whoever you want. If scripture were your final authority then you could not so easily ignore and pass over what winsome wrote. But it's not your final authority.
What winsome wrote is a gross misunderstanding of scripture.
The bottom line, you are saying the finished work of Christ on the Cross is not finished, you've got to add to it for it to be complete.
God's plan of redemption for man is not being understood! That's why you guys are Catholics and we are Christians.
: Charlie24 Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 05:39:34
: Catholica Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 04:49:44
At least when Thomas doubted and said that "unless I put my finger into the hole in his side I won't believe" and Jesus showed up with holes, he believed. People on here have winsome show up with scripture demonstrating purgatory and still they claim that purgatory isn't scriptural.
I don't think you all actually go by the Bible as your final authority at all. Or give it any authority at all actually. You believe whoever you want. If scripture were your final authority then you could not so easily ignore and pass over what winsome wrote. But it's not your final authority.
What winsome wrote is a gross misunderstanding of scripture.
The bottom line, you are saying the finished work of Christ on the Cross is not finished, you've got to add to it for it to be complete.
God's plan of redemption for man is not being understood! That's why you guys are Catholics and we are Christians.
When a Protestant trots out an unscriptural phrase such as "the finished work of Christ on the Cross" you know they don't understand God's plan of Redemption.
If Christ's work was finished on the cross what is he doing at God's right hand interceeding for us (Rom 8:34)?
If Christ's work was finished on the cross who baptised with the Holy Spirit those in the upper room at Pentecost as promised in Jn 1:33?
If Christ's work was finished on the cross why did he tell the apostles he was going to prepare a place for them (Jn 14:2)?
If Christ's work was finished on the cross why did he appear to the apostles after his resurrection speaking to them about the kingdom of God (Acts 1:3)
And there are more examples I could give of what Christ did and is still doing after he died on the cross.
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 21:32:52
: 4WD Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 19:46:28
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 17:46:17
The problem is not with Catholic doctrine. The problem here is that you believe that all your future sins are forgiven without repenting. It's simply not true.
I said nothing about not repenting. But faith in Christ, so long as it is active, drives one to repentance. But that does not mean that one is lost until he repents. You spoke earlier about a horrible cycle. The horrible cycle is the fear of a believing Christian that he might die and still have a sin that has not been forgiven and therefore will not see eternal life with Christ in heaven. He sins, he thinks he is lost, he confesses, receives absolution only to go through that cycle again and again. I have seen that fear once to often. It comes from bad theology and bad teaching.
Ok, so a person must repent. Why? If his sins are forgiven, why must he repent? In your theology, repentance is superfluous.
There is good fear and bad fear. If a person commits a mortal sin and thinks that he is lost, he might be! So that is a good fear because it is reasonable. If he is struggling against sin, that is what God wants. What is much worse is that a person sins but his conscience is dulled to the severity of his sin. He goes merrily along the way to hell and finds himself there at the end of his life. The sinner who repents will be saved. The sinner who commits mortal sin post baptism and does not repent will be damned.
No it is not superfluous. And as I noted earlier, the Christian is never called a sinner in the Bible. He does sin but he is never called a sinner. I do not wish to get into the discussion of "mortal sin", other than to say that I don't hold to the typical view expressed in Catholicism.
: winsome Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 05:18:06
: 4WD Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 19:37:22
We are not lost through works or lack thereof; rather we are lost through unbelief.
Really?
Then what is Matthew :25-31-46 all about?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Therefore, apparently according to you, if you have ever driven by a homeless person and did not, for whatever reason, minister to him you are lost. I would guess that you must be in a bit trouble.
: 4WD Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 07:16:03
: winsome Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 05:18:06
: 4WD Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 19:37:22
We are not lost through works or lack thereof; rather we are lost through unbelief.
Really?
Then what is Matthew :25-31-46 all about?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Therefore, apparently according to you, if you have ever driven by a homeless person and did not, for whatever reason, minister to him you are lost. I would guess that you must be in a bit trouble.
That's not what I said - or the implication of what I said.
That's the way you guys do scripture isn't ? - Snip a bit out of context to try and make it say what it doesn't say.
: winsome Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 07:27:41
: 4WD Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 07:16:03
: winsome Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 05:18:06
: 4WD Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 19:37:22
We are not lost through works or lack thereof; rather we are lost through unbelief.
Really?
Then what is Matthew :25-31-46 all about?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Therefore, apparently according to you, if you have ever driven by a homeless person and did not, for whatever reason, minister to him you are lost. I would guess that you must be in a bit trouble.
That's not what I said - or the implication of what I said.
That's the way you guys do scripture isn't ? - Snip a bit out of context to try and make it say what it doesn't say.
That is what you guys do. On so many things. Do non-Catholics do that? Yes, Catholics and non-Catholics alike seem to fall to that. And it involves not only a bit out of context, but sometimes lots of bits out of context. It is called eisegesis. And it runs rampant in far too many ways and places. I think the whole concept of purgatory fits into that category. Just like original sin, or total depravity, or penance, or......
: 4WD Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 07:38:27
: winsome Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 07:27:41
: 4WD Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 07:16:03
: winsome Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 05:18:06
: 4WD Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 19:37:22
We are not lost through works or lack thereof; rather we are lost through unbelief.
Really?
Then what is Matthew :25-31-46 all about?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Therefore, apparently according to you, if you have ever driven by a homeless person and did not, for whatever reason, minister to him you are lost. I would guess that you must be in a bit trouble.
That's not what I said - or the implication of what I said.
That's the way you guys do scripture isn't ? - Snip a bit out of context to try and make it say what it doesn't say.
That is what you guys do. On so many things. Do non-Catholics do that? Yes, Catholics and non-Catholics alike seem to fall to that. And it involves not only a bit out of context, but sometimes lots of bits out of context. It is called eisegesis. And it runs rampant in far too many ways and places. I think the whole concept of purgatory fits into that category. Just like original sin, or total depravity, or penance, or......
... or anything you personally disagree with!
: winsome Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 07:50:40
: 4WD Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 07:38:27
: winsome Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 07:27:41
: 4WD Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 07:16:03
: winsome Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 05:18:06
: 4WD Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 19:37:22
We are not lost through works or lack thereof; rather we are lost through unbelief.
Really?
Then what is Matthew :25-31-46 all about?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Therefore, apparently according to you, if you have ever driven by a homeless person and did not, for whatever reason, minister to him you are lost. I would guess that you must be in a bit trouble.
That's not what I said - or the implication of what I said.
That's the way you guys do scripture isn't ? - Snip a bit out of context to try and make it say what it doesn't say.
That is what you guys do. On so many things. Do non-Catholics do that? Yes, Catholics and non-Catholics alike seem to fall to that. And it involves not only a bit out of context, but sometimes lots of bits out of context. It is called eisegesis. And it runs rampant in far too many ways and places. I think the whole concept of purgatory fits into that category. Just like original sin, or total depravity, or penance, or......
... or anything you personally disagree with!
That is no different than you.
: 4WD Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 08:34:54
: Catholica Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 08:22:34
: Red Baker Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 05:38:33
::pondering:: deleted as quote from post that was removed due to rule violation ::pondering::
Deleted due to being quote from a post that was removed due to rule violation
Tell me please, was winsome's OP his own knowledge of the Bible or was it culled or copied from some outside source? More likely the later. I do find those who continue to lean on an "accepted" historical presentation of Scripture rather than Scripture itself little different that what you accuse of Buster.
You are just more practiced at grabbing at that "accepted" presentation.
My understanding of Church teaching comes from many sources – scripture, the Catechism, Catholic apologists, other forum posters etc.
There is a huge difference between putting all that together to express one's own understanding of a topic and simply doing a cut and paste from someone else's work.
deleted notreligous and red baker quotes from posts that were removed due to rule violation.
: winsome Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 08:46:21
: 4WD Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 08:34:54
: Catholica Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 08:22:34
: Red Baker Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 05:38:33
Tell me please, was winsome's OP his own knowledge of the Bible or was it culled or copied from some outside source? More likely the later. I do find those who continue to lean on an "accepted" historical presentation of Scripture rather than Scripture itself little different that what you accuse of Buster.
You are just more practiced at grabbing at that "accepted" presentation.
My understanding of Church teaching comes from many sources – scripture, the Catechism, Catholic apologists, other forum posters etc.
There is a huge difference between putting all that together to express one's own understanding of a topic and simply doing a cut and paste from someone else's work.
Absolutely. There is a big difference between someone who has synthesized the gospel into their heart who is able to recall of their own volition verses that demonstrate it, and someone that has to go and find answers on the internet for someone to rescue them from their non-knowledge of scripture. The first is not ignorant of the scriptures, and the second one is ignorant of the scriptures.
Whenever I post I do it from what I know in my heart, and verses that I remember from both reading and hearing the Bible. If I can't remember the chapter and verse of something I type in the phrase that I know is there and Google reminds me where in the Bible it is located.
That's a big difference than copying and pasting something from GotQuestions.
: winsome Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 08:46:21
: 4WD Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 08:34:54
: Catholica Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 08:22:34
: Red Baker Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 05:38:33
: notreligus Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 22:20:29
Tell me please, was winsome's OP his own knowledge of the Bible or was it culled or copied from some outside source? More likely the later. I do find those who continue to lean on an "accepted" historical presentation of Scripture rather than Scripture itself little different that what you accuse of Buster.
You are just more practiced at grabbing at that "accepted" presentation.
My understanding of Church teaching comes from many sources – scripture, the Catechism, Catholic apologists, other forum posters etc.
There is a huge difference between putting all that together to express one's own understanding of a topic and simply doing a cut and paste from someone else's work.
Did you not cut and paste someone else's work in the OP? If not, then I am impressed. Not with the lack of understanding in the post, but at least in the amount of work it took to do it.
Besides, there is nothing wrong with cutting and pasting if that is what you believe. It should however be referenced accordingly.
: 4WD Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:44:34
Besides, there is nothing wrong with cutting and pasting if that is what you believe. It should however be referenced accordingly.
It is. And always has been. And it has also been stated in certain posts that it is to further the dialog that that source is added. Because sometimes when someone makes a statement about a scripture or a faith tradition that is challenged because it is one's own words. Affording an outside resource that says the same thing demonstrates it is not just one persons opinion. The links provided in excerpted materials, or even full articles copied invoking Fair Use for education purposes, because it becomes necessary when people refuse to read links and excerpts and seek out more in that article linked, are noted too.
I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting
: Adamski Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:57:06
I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting
How so?
: Buster D Body Crab Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:55:09
: 4WD Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:44:34
Besides, there is nothing wrong with cutting and pasting if that is what you believe. It should however be referenced accordingly.
It is. And always has been. And it has also been stated in certain posts that it is to further the dialog that that source is added. Because sometimes when someone makes a statement about a scripture or a faith tradition that is challenged because it is one's own words. Affording an outside resource that says the same thing demonstrates it is not just one persons opinion. The links provided in excerpted materials, or even full articles copied invoking Fair Use for education purposes, because it becomes necessary when people refuse to read links and excerpts and seek out more in that article linked, are noted too.
They don't add much to the discussion however, because the post author can't defend the reference material as he didn't write it, and the author of the reference material is not here to defend it himself.
The former is borne out by the inability of the poster to answer to refutations of the reference material with anything but sheer opinion.
: Adamski Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:57:06
I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting
Strange that the Rich Man in the Luke 16 account of the Rich Man and Lazarus did not find much comfort in it if that is where he was. If that is not where he was, then why wasn't it? Quite obviously he was very contrite, repentant and confessant.
Guys, lets keep this thread on topic and please refrain from personal attacks on another members character.
: Catholica Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 10:04:27
: Buster D Body Crab Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:55:09
: 4WD Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:44:34
Besides, there is nothing wrong with cutting and pasting if that is what you believe. It should however be referenced accordingly.
It is. And always has been. And it has also been stated in certain posts that it is to further the dialog that that source is added. Because sometimes when someone makes a statement about a scripture or a faith tradition that is challenged because it is one's own words. Affording an outside resource that says the same thing demonstrates it is not just one persons opinion. The links provided in excerpted materials, or even full articles copied invoking Fair Use for education purposes, because it becomes necessary when people refuse to read links and excerpts and seek out more in that article linked, are noted too.
They don't add much to the discussion however, because the post author can't defend the reference material as he didn't write it, and the author of the reference material is not here to defend it himself.
The former is borne out by the inability of the poster to answer to refutations of the reference material with anything but sheer opinion.
Good grief Catholica, most of what you post here is sheer opinion. Yours or someone else's. The minute you make a statement other than a direct quote from the Scriptures it is nothing more than opinion. And it really matters little that it is the opinion of someone who lived 2000 years ago or is still living today.
: 4WD Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 10:08:17
: Adamski Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:57:06
I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting
Strange that the Rich Man in the Luke 16 account of the Rich Man and Lazarus did not find much comfort in it if that is where he was. If that is not where he was, then why wasn't it? Quite obviously he was very contrite, repentant and confessant.
Do you think people in hell are "contrite, repentant and confessant"? Or do you think Jesus is talking about purgatory in that passage in scripture?
If the former then why are you asking the question? If the latter then why are you arguing against purgatory? Actually either way, why are you asking the question? Where do you think the rich man is?
: 4WD Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 10:12:19
: Catholica Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 10:04:27
: Buster D Body Crab Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:55:09
: 4WD Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:44:34
Besides, there is nothing wrong with cutting and pasting if that is what you believe. It should however be referenced accordingly.
It is. And always has been. And it has also been stated in certain posts that it is to further the dialog that that source is added. Because sometimes when someone makes a statement about a scripture or a faith tradition that is challenged because it is one's own words. Affording an outside resource that says the same thing demonstrates it is not just one persons opinion. The links provided in excerpted materials, or even full articles copied invoking Fair Use for education purposes, because it becomes necessary when people refuse to read links and excerpts and seek out more in that article linked, are noted too.
They don't add much to the discussion however, because the post author can't defend the reference material as he didn't write it, and the author of the reference material is not here to defend it himself.
The former is borne out by the inability of the poster to answer to refutations of the reference material with anything but sheer opinion.
Good grief Catholica, most of what you post here is sheer opinion. Yours or someone else's. The minute you make a statement other than a direct quote from the Scriptures it is nothing more than opinion. And it really matters little that it is the opinion of someone who lived 2000 years ago or is still living today.
My opinions are those of the Church, which I have adopted as my own, and I back them up with scripture which I believe and see supporting them, and if challenged, I can respond coherently because I know my faith and I know the theology behind it all and have incorporated it into my life and being.
: Catholica Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 10:04:27
: Buster D Body Crab Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:55:09
: 4WD Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:44:34
Besides, there is nothing wrong with cutting and pasting if that is what you believe. It should however be referenced accordingly.
It is. And always has been. And it has also been stated in certain posts that it is to further the dialog that that source is added. Because sometimes when someone makes a statement about a scripture or a faith tradition that is challenged because it is one's own words. Affording an outside resource that says the same thing demonstrates it is not just one persons opinion. The links provided in excerpted materials, or even full articles copied invoking Fair Use for education purposes, because it becomes necessary when people refuse to read links and excerpts and seek out more in that article linked, are noted too.
They don't add much to the discussion however, because the post author can't defend the reference material as he didn't write it, and the author of the reference material is not here to defend it himself.
The former is borne out by the inability of the poster to answer to refutations of the reference material with anything but sheer opinion.
When sourced material contains scriptural references it may be presumed readers are capable of seeking out the scriptures so as to learn for themselves what is said.
And most people here offer sheer opinion as there is not a Biblical Scholar on these forums who are writing from their own credentialed perspective.
In truth, there is no merit in calling into question my posting of scripture when you have said you don't recall scripture as it reads so you Google to find what you're looking to say. In fact, there is no merit in your calling into question my faith or my knowledge of scripture.
Furthermore, it is contrary to the decorum of these forums to make a conscientious attack against my person and my faith. Rule 1.1, rule 1.3, rule 2.1b, rule 2.4 could be copied and pasted here to your attention and others who have aligned with your agenda.However, I believe this should be enough to remind people that this is a Christian community.
Comporting ones self as one bent on an agenda to harass, defame, and belittle, a member whom one takes issue with because the site owner afforded him the privilege of being a Moderator is not an example of the spirit we should all example as those who are alive in the spirit of Christ Jesus.
For Red Baker, I didn't respond because I figured you were caught up in the tide of discord others feed off of when focusing their contempt for me into recruitment of others.
I am me! I am not a sock account for any other member here. I hope that satisfies your curiosity.
I also hope, since this thread has gone on far enough with the personal attacks against myself, that those cease! So that the rules are no longer violated here.
Thank you.
: 4WD Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 10:08:17
: Adamski Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:57:06
I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting
Strange that the Rich Man in the Luke 16 account of the Rich Man and Lazarus did not find much comfort in it if that is where he was. If that is not where he was, then why wasn't it? Quite obviously he was very contrite, repentant and confessant.
That is because that is a vision of hell not purgatory there is a divide that can't be reached.
Purgatory as 1 Corinthians says is saved by fire:
Remember how you can't even look at God in the Old Testament while in heaven you will see the full vision of God and nothing impure can enter heaven and I still need a little purification
: Catholica Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 10:20:51
: 4WD Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 10:12:19
: Catholica Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 10:04:27
: Buster D Body Crab Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:55:09
: 4WD Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:44:34
Besides, there is nothing wrong with cutting and pasting if that is what you believe. It should however be referenced accordingly.
It is. And always has been. And it has also been stated in certain posts that it is to further the dialog that that source is added. Because sometimes when someone makes a statement about a scripture or a faith tradition that is challenged because it is one's own words. Affording an outside resource that says the same thing demonstrates it is not just one persons opinion. The links provided in excerpted materials, or even full articles copied invoking Fair Use for education purposes, because it becomes necessary when people refuse to read links and excerpts and seek out more in that article linked, are noted too.
They don't add much to the discussion however, because the post author can't defend the reference material as he didn't write it, and the author of the reference material is not here to defend it himself.
The former is borne out by the inability of the poster to answer to refutations of the reference material with anything but sheer opinion.
Good grief Catholica, most of what you post here is sheer opinion. Yours or someone else's. The minute you make a statement other than a direct quote from the Scriptures it is nothing more than opinion. And it really matters little that it is the opinion of someone who lived 2000 years ago or is still living today.
My opinions are those of the Church, which I have adopted as my own, and I back them up with scripture which I believe and see supporting them, and if challenged, I can respond coherently because I know my faith and I know the theology behind it all and have incorporated it into my life and being.
They are the opinions of the Catholic Church, not the church. That you do not understand even that is significant to the discussion. And what you say about your opinions are no different than those of many, many non-Catholics.
: Adamski Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 10:25:43
: 4WD Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 10:08:17
: Adamski Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:57:06
I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting
Strange that the Rich Man in the Luke 16 account of the Rich Man and Lazarus did not find much comfort in it if that is where he was. If that is not where he was, then why wasn't it? Quite obviously he was very contrite, repentant and confessant.
That is because that is a vision of hell not purgatory there is a divide that can't be reached.
Purgatory as 1 Corinthians says is saved by fire:
Remember how you can't even look at God in the Old Testament while in heaven you will see the full vision of God and nothing impure can enter heaven and I still need a little purification
That notion is one of the major differences between the [false] Catholic doctrine of impartation of righteousness and the non-Catholic doctrine of imputation of righteousness. But that is another topic.
: Adamski Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 10:25:43
: 4WD Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 10:08:17
: Adamski Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:57:06
I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting
Strange that the Rich Man in the Luke 16 account of the Rich Man and Lazarus did not find much comfort in it if that is where he was. If that is not where he was, then why wasn't it? Quite obviously he was very contrite, repentant and confessant.
That is because that is a vision of hell not purgatory there is a divide that can't be reached.
Purgatory as 1 Corinthians says is saved by fire:
Remember how you can't even look at God in the Old Testament while in heaven you will see the full vision of God and nothing impure can enter heaven and I still need a little purification
Why? Jesus clothing us in His robes of righteousness is not enough?
What happens in "purgatory" to purify you that God has not accomplished through the finished work of the Son, making us new and the good work He begins in us upon Salvation?
: Adamski Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 10:25:43
: 4WD Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 10:08:17
: Adamski Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:57:06
I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting
Strange that the Rich Man in the Luke 16 account of the Rich Man and Lazarus did not find much comfort in it if that is where he was. If that is not where he was, then why wasn't it? Quite obviously he was very contrite, repentant and confessant.
That is because that is a vision of hell not purgatory there is a divide that can't be reached.
Purgatory as 1 Corinthians says is saved by fire:
Remember how you can't even look at God in the Old Testament while in heaven you will see the full vision of God and nothing impure can enter heaven and I still need a little purification
It is unfortunate that you accept that and thereby deny the sufficiency and full efficacy of Christ's atoning sacrifice for all sin on the cross.
1 Corinthians 3:15 does not actually support Purgatory. Paul was a Pharisee before he found Christ on the road to Damascus. He was one who had the foremost education in Hebrew law overall. He knew there was no such place as Purgatory when he was a Jew and when he wrote to the church in Corinth, if the Christian reads the full chapter of 1 Corinthians 3, they realize he was not speaking of our needing to suffer fire after death to further purge or cleanse us of our sins.
Part of many Christians walk of faith is the study of many disciplines related to the faith. Soterology, Apologetics, etc...
An Apologetics Research Ministry I've found is a great resource to that end. Especially in the case of helping Christians to understand the real message in full context afforded in 1 Corinthians. Particularly with regard to chapter 3 in its entirety and since verse 15 is often cited by Roman Catholics as furthering the idea of Purgatory.
(Sic)"...1 Cor. 3:15 does not teach purgatory as a place we go to in order to have some of our sins cleansed from us. It teaches that even though the person is justified by faith and cannot face damnation, his works will, however, be judged on "that day." Those works which are good will survive the fires of judgment the way gold, silver, and precious stones can survive fire. But false works will be consumed the way fire consumes wood, hay, and straw. What is left has no bearing on whether or not we are saved. It has to do with rewards in heaven.
Paul goes on to say in 1 Cor. 4:5, "Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men's hearts; and then each man's praise will come to him from God." " (http://purgatory%20and%201%20cor.%203:15)
: Buster D Body Crab Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 11:28:29
: Adamski Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 10:25:43
: 4WD Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 10:08:17
: Adamski Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:57:06
I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting
Strange that the Rich Man in the Luke 16 account of the Rich Man and Lazarus did not find much comfort in it if that is where he was. If that is not where he was, then why wasn't it? Quite obviously he was very contrite, repentant and confessant.
That is because that is a vision of hell not purgatory there is a divide that can't be reached.
Purgatory as 1 Corinthians says is saved by fire:
Remember how you can't even look at God in the Old Testament while in heaven you will see the full vision of God and nothing impure can enter heaven and I still need a little purification
It is unfortunate that you accept that and thereby deny the sufficiency and full efficacy of Christ's atoning sacrifice for all sin on the cross.
1 Corinthians 3:15 does not actually support Purgatory. Paul was a Pharisee before he found Christ on the road to Damascus. He was one who had the foremost education in Hebrew law overall. He knew there was no such place as Purgatory when he was a Jew and when he wrote to the church in Corinth, if the Christian reads the full chapter of 1 Corinthians 3, they realize he was not speaking of our needing to suffer fire after death to further purge or cleanse us of our sins.
Part of many Christians walk of faith is the study of many disciplines related to the faith. Soterology, Apologetics, etc...
An Apologetics Research Ministry I've found is a great resource to that end. Especially in the case of helping Christians to understand the real message in full context afforded in 1 Corinthians. Particularly with regard to chapter 3 in its entirety and since verse 15 is often cited by Roman Catholics as furthering the idea of Purgatory.
(Sic)"...1 Cor. 3:15 does not teach purgatory as a place we go to in order to have some of our sins cleansed from us. It teaches that even though the person is justified by faith and cannot face damnation, his works will, however, be judged on "that day." Those works which are good will survive the fires of judgment the way gold, silver, and precious stones can survive fire. But false works will be consumed the way fire consumes wood, hay, and straw. What is left has no bearing on whether or not we are saved. It has to do with rewards in heaven.
Paul goes on to say in 1 Cor. 4:5, "Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men's hearts; and then each man's praise will come to him from God." " (http://purgatory%20and%201%20cor.%203:15)
I could have guessed you were reading CARM.
The article's first paragraph shows that the author doesn't even know what purgatory is. If he did he wouldn't argue that "what is left has no bearing on whether or not we are saved". Everyone in purgatory is going to heaven. Therefore his reasoning against 1 Cor. 3:15 doesn't do anything to show that the verse is not referring to purgatory. And the quote from 1 Cor. 4:5 is not related to the issue at hand.
Furthermore the Jews in fact did at the time of the Christ, pray for the dead, for 11 months, and many still do so to this day. You might be interested to learn about Judaism before you repeat stuff about the ways of the Jews.
Here is a quote from: http://www.jewfaq.org/death.htm, (http://www.jewfaq.org/death.htm,) emphasis mine:
Kaddish
Kaddish is commonly known as a mourner's prayer, but in fact, variations on the Kaddish prayer are routinely recited at many other times, and the prayer itself has nothing to do with death or mourning. The prayer begins "May His great Name grow exalted and sanctified in the world that He created as He willed. May He give reign to His kingship in your lifetimes and in your days ..." and continues in much that vein. The real mourner's prayer is El Molai Rachamim, which is recited at grave sites and during funerals.
Why, then, is Kaddish recited by mourners?
After a great loss like the death of a parent, you might expect a person to lose faith in G-d, or to cry out against G-d's injustice. Instead, Judaism requires a mourner to stand up every day, publicly (i.e., in front of a minyan, a quorum of 10 adult men), and reaffirm faith in G-d despite this loss. To do so inures to the merit of the deceased in the eyes of G-d, because the deceased must have been a very good parent to raise a child who could express such faith in the face of personal loss.
Then why is Kaddish recited for only 11 months, when the mourning period is 12 months? According to Jewish tradition, the soul must spend some time purifying itself before it can enter the World to Come. The maximum time required for purification is 12 months, for the most evil person. To recite Kaddish for 12 months would imply that the parent was the type who needed 12 months of purification! To avoid this implication, the Sages decreed that a son should recite Kaddish for only eleven months.
A person is permitted to recite Kaddish for other close relatives as well as parents, but only if his parents are dead.
See Mourners' Kaddish for the full text of the Mourners' Kaddish.
: MeMyself Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:58:48
: Adamski Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:57:06
I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting
How so?
I don't know if Adamski overlooked your question or not, but with all the stuff flying around here I consider it likely.
I too find it comforting, because I know that even should I fail to become perfect by the end of this life by the grace of Jesus Christ and my co-operation with it, which is altogether likely, God has given us purgatory to still bring people who are not perfect into heaven. It is his means of perfecting us. Because nothing impure can enter heaven. Rev. 21:27.
: Catholica Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 11:45:42
: MeMyself Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:58:48
: Adamski Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:57:06
I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting
How so?
I don't know if Adamski overlooked your question or not, but with all the stuff flying around here I consider it likely.
I too find it comforting, because I know that even should I fail to become perfect by the end of this life by the grace of Jesus Christ and my co-operation with it, which is altogether likely, God has given us purgatory to still bring people who are not perfect into heaven. It is his means of perfecting us. Because nothing impure can enter heaven. Rev. 21:27.
How can what Jesus did for us, to atone for us, be lacking that a last ditch effort must be made to make us pure? The Word says we are clothed with Christ's robes of righteousness, that we become His righteousness.
: MeMyself Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 11:50:39
: Catholica Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 11:45:42
: MeMyself Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:58:48
: Adamski Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:57:06
I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting
How so?
I don't know if Adamski overlooked your question or not, but with all the stuff flying around here I consider it likely.
I too find it comforting, because I know that even should I fail to become perfect by the end of this life by the grace of Jesus Christ and my co-operation with it, which is altogether likely, God has given us purgatory to still bring people who are not perfect into heaven. It is his means of perfecting us. Because nothing impure can enter heaven. Rev. 21:27.
How can what Jesus did for us, to atone for us, be lacking that a last ditch effort must be made to make us pure? The Word says we are clothed with Christ's robes of righteousness, that we become His righteousness.
Yes sounds like hogwash to me also. I would think that someone professing to be Christian would better understand the power of their Savior !!!!
: MeMyself Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 11:50:39
: Catholica Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 11:45:42
: MeMyself Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:58:48
: Adamski Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:57:06
I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting
How so?
I don't know if Adamski overlooked your question or not, but with all the stuff flying around here I consider it likely.
I too find it comforting, because I know that even should I fail to become perfect by the end of this life by the grace of Jesus Christ and my co-operation with it, which is altogether likely, God has given us purgatory to still bring people who are not perfect into heaven. It is his means of perfecting us. Because nothing impure can enter heaven. Rev. 21:27.
How can what Jesus did for us, to atone for us, be lacking that a last ditch effort must be made to make us pure? The Word says we are clothed with Christ's robes of righteousness, that we become His righteousness.
We don't "become" His righteousness. His righteousness is not imparted; it is imputed. That is one reason why the Catholic view of purgatory is needed in that theology. They view His righteousness as being imparted. And that can't really happen, either before or after death. We can be forgiven our sins and have Jesus' righteousness imputed to us. Our sins can not be undone and thereby have righteousness imparted. It says that God will remember our sins no more; it doesn't say that they no longer exist. We committed the sins. That cannot be undone. That would require changing the past. That doesn't happen.
: MeMyself Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 11:50:39
: Catholica Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 11:45:42
: MeMyself Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:58:48
: Adamski Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:57:06
I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting
How so?
I don't know if Adamski overlooked your question or not, but with all the stuff flying around here I consider it likely.
I too find it comforting, because I know that even should I fail to become perfect by the end of this life by the grace of Jesus Christ and my co-operation with it, which is altogether likely, God has given us purgatory to still bring people who are not perfect into heaven. It is his means of perfecting us. Because nothing impure can enter heaven. Rev. 21:27.
How can what Jesus did for us, to atone for us, be lacking that a last ditch effort must be made to make us pure? The Word says we are clothed with Christ's robes of righteousness, that we become His righteousness.
Colossians 1:24
Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.
This is no "last ditch effort" but rather a part of the Gospel. Our participation in Christ's sufferings makes us pure.
"It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time at their pleasure, but
he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it." (Heb 12:7-11).
"Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord" (Heb 12;14)
Why, if we are righteous as Christ is righteous, would we
strive for holiness? And why would that holiness, which we must
strive be necessary to see the Lord?
"But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be
zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace." (2Pet 3:13-14)
If we are perfectly righteous already, we would not need to be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish. We would be without spot or blemish already.
: 4WD Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 12:20:24
: MeMyself Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 11:50:39
: Catholica Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 11:45:42
: MeMyself Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:58:48
: Adamski Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:57:06
I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting
How so?
I don't know if Adamski overlooked your question or not, but with all the stuff flying around here I consider it likely.
I too find it comforting, because I know that even should I fail to become perfect by the end of this life by the grace of Jesus Christ and my co-operation with it, which is altogether likely, God has given us purgatory to still bring people who are not perfect into heaven. It is his means of perfecting us. Because nothing impure can enter heaven. Rev. 21:27.
How can what Jesus did for us, to atone for us, be lacking that a last ditch effort must be made to make us pure? The Word says we are clothed with Christ's robes of righteousness, that we become His righteousness.
We don't "become" His righteousness. His righteousness is not imparted; it is imputed. That is one reason why the Catholic view of purgatory is needed in that theology. They view His righteousness as being imparted. And that can't really happen, either before or after death. We can be forgiven our sins and have Jesus' righteousness imputed to us. Our sins can not be undone and thereby have righteousness imparted. It says that God will remember our sins no more; it doesn't say that they no longer exist. We committed the sins. That cannot be undone. That would require changing the past. That doesn't happen.
The Word says this:
2 Corinthians 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Red, my original post has been erased.
Why is there a cover-up going on in a Christian forum?
I'm not letting this go until somebody comes clean.
What exactly do you feel is going on here?
: Catholica Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 11:45:42
: MeMyself Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:58:48
: Adamski Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:57:06
I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting
How so?
I don't know if Adamski overlooked your question or not, but with all the stuff flying around here I consider it likely.
I too find it comforting, because I know that even should I fail to become perfect by the end of this life by the grace of Jesus Christ and my co-operation with it, which is altogether likely, God has given us purgatory to still bring people who are not perfect into heaven. It is his means of perfecting us. Because nothing impure can enter heaven. Rev. 21:27.
What I find comforting is that when I die I will go straight to be with Him. ::clappingoverhead:: ::clappingoverhead:: ::clappingoverhead::
: notreligus Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 12:41:05
Red, my original post has been erased.
Why is there a cover-up going on in a Christian forum?
I'm not letting this go until somebody comes clean.
This is no place for your personal opinions regarding other members, further discussion of this sort resulting in off topic posts will result in warnings being issued.
: Adamski Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 10:25:43
: 4WD Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 10:08:17
: Adamski Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:57:06
I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting
Strange that the Rich Man in the Luke 16 account of the Rich Man and Lazarus did not find much comfort in it if that is where he was. If that is not where he was, then why wasn't it? Quite obviously he was very contrite, repentant and confessant.
That is because that is a vision of hell not purgatory there is a divide that can't be reached.
Purgatory as 1 Corinthians says is saved by fire:
Remember how you can't even look at God in the Old Testament while in heaven you will see the full vision of God and nothing impure can enter heaven and I still need a little purification
If you are His child, then you are washed clean through the blood of Jesus. Or is that not enough for you ??? ::headscratch:: ::frown:: ::shrug::
: chosenone Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 13:22:25
: Adamski Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 10:25:43
: 4WD Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 10:08:17
: Adamski Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:57:06
I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting
Strange that the Rich Man in the Luke 16 account of the Rich Man and Lazarus did not find much comfort in it if that is where he was. If that is not where he was, then why wasn't it? Quite obviously he was very contrite, repentant and confessant.
That is because that is a vision of hell not purgatory there is a divide that can't be reached.
Purgatory as 1 Corinthians says is saved by fire:
Remember how you can't even look at God in the Old Testament while in heaven you will see the full vision of God and nothing impure can enter heaven and I still need a little purification
If you are His child, then you are washed clean through the blood of Jesus. Or is that not enough for you ??? ::headscratch:: ::frown:: ::shrug::
We don't subscribe to your theology so contradictory to the Bible verses that winsome posted.
: chosenone Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 13:20:04
: Catholica Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 11:45:42
: MeMyself Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:58:48
: Adamski Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:57:06
I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting
How so?
I don't know if Adamski overlooked your question or not, but with all the stuff flying around here I consider it likely.
I too find it comforting, because I know that even should I fail to become perfect by the end of this life by the grace of Jesus Christ and my co-operation with it, which is altogether likely, God has given us purgatory to still bring people who are not perfect into heaven. It is his means of perfecting us. Because nothing impure can enter heaven. Rev. 21:27.
What I find comforting is that when I die I will go straight to be with Him. ::clappingoverhead:: ::clappingoverhead:: ::clappingoverhead::
The Bible doesn't say that when you die you will go straight to be with Him. If you want to take comfort in that tradition of men, that is between you and God.
: Catholica Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 13:24:34
: chosenone Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 13:22:25
: Adamski Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 10:25:43
: 4WD Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 10:08:17
: Adamski Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:57:06
I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting
Strange that the Rich Man in the Luke 16 account of the Rich Man and Lazarus did not find much comfort in it if that is where he was. If that is not where he was, then why wasn't it? Quite obviously he was very contrite, repentant and confessant.
That is because that is a vision of hell not purgatory there is a divide that can't be reached.
Purgatory as 1 Corinthians says is saved by fire:
Remember how you can't even look at God in the Old Testament while in heaven you will see the full vision of God and nothing impure can enter heaven and I still need a little purification
If you are His child, then you are washed clean through the blood of Jesus. Or is that not enough for you ??? ::headscratch:: ::frown:: ::shrug::
We don't subscribe to your theology so contradictory to the Bible verses that winsome posted.
My Bible says that I am washed clean through his death and resurrection, and that when I leave my body I will be with Him ::smile::
: chosenone Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 13:29:05
: Catholica Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 13:24:34
: chosenone Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 13:22:25
: Adamski Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 10:25:43
: 4WD Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 10:08:17
: Adamski Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:57:06
I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting
Strange that the Rich Man in the Luke 16 account of the Rich Man and Lazarus did not find much comfort in it if that is where he was. If that is not where he was, then why wasn't it? Quite obviously he was very contrite, repentant and confessant.
That is because that is a vision of hell not purgatory there is a divide that can't be reached.
Purgatory as 1 Corinthians says is saved by fire:
Remember how you can't even look at God in the Old Testament while in heaven you will see the full vision of God and nothing impure can enter heaven and I still need a little purification
If you are His child, then you are washed clean through the blood of Jesus. Or is that not enough for you ??? ::headscratch:: ::frown:: ::shrug::
We don't subscribe to your theology so contradictory to the Bible verses that winsome posted.
My Bible says that I am washed clean through his death and resurrection, and that when I leave my body I will be with Him ::smile::
Neither of those things you say here preclude purgatory.
: Catholica Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 13:26:27
: chosenone Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 13:20:04
: Catholica Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 11:45:42
: MeMyself Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:58:48
: Adamski Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:57:06
I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting
How so?
I don't know if Adamski overlooked your question or not, but with all the stuff flying around here I consider it likely.
I too find it comforting, because I know that even should I fail to become perfect by the end of this life by the grace of Jesus Christ and my co-operation with it, which is altogether likely, God has given us purgatory to still bring people who are not perfect into heaven. It is his means of perfecting us. Because nothing impure can enter heaven. Rev. 21:27.
What I find comforting is that when I die I will go straight to be with Him. ::clappingoverhead:: ::clappingoverhead:: ::clappingoverhead::
The Bible doesn't say that when you die you will go straight to be with Him. If you want to take comfort in that tradition of men, that is between you and God.
Now that is quite ironic, being that so many of the beliefs of the RC church are made up from the traditions of men. Nope its what God says in the Bible. Its also what many believers on their death bed have said, that they have seen Jesus and that he has come to welcome them. Praise Him. ::clappingoverhead::
: Catholica Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 13:30:49
: chosenone Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 13:29:05
: Catholica Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 13:24:34
: chosenone Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 13:22:25
: Adamski Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 10:25:43
: 4WD Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 10:08:17
: Adamski Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:57:06
I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting
Strange that the Rich Man in the Luke 16 account of the Rich Man and Lazarus did not find much comfort in it if that is where he was. If that is not where he was, then why wasn't it? Quite obviously he was very contrite, repentant and confessant.
That is because that is a vision of hell not purgatory there is a divide that can't be reached.
Purgatory as 1 Corinthians says is saved by fire:
Remember how you can't even look at God in the Old Testament while in heaven you will see the full vision of God and nothing impure can enter heaven and I still need a little purification
If you are His child, then you are washed clean through the blood of Jesus. Or is that not enough for you ??? ::headscratch:: ::frown:: ::shrug::
We don't subscribe to your theology so contradictory to the Bible verses that winsome posted.
My Bible says that I am washed clean through his death and resurrection, and that when I leave my body I will be with Him ::smile::
Neither of those things you say here preclude purgatory.
Not once has a place like that been mentioned in the Bible, its a completely man made belief that apparently wasnt thought up or invented till the 3rd century, and was done so the priests could make money from the very gullible by saying they will pray for those who have died if they hand over their money. VERY godly I dont think. ::frown:: I honestly cant believe that anyone would fall for that to be honest, but they didnt have Bibles then I suppose they knew no better. ::shrug::
: chosenone Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 13:32:40
: Catholica Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 13:26:27
: chosenone Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 13:20:04
: Catholica Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 11:45:42
: MeMyself Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:58:48
: Adamski Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:57:06
I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting
How so?
I don't know if Adamski overlooked your question or not, but with all the stuff flying around here I consider it likely.
I too find it comforting, because I know that even should I fail to become perfect by the end of this life by the grace of Jesus Christ and my co-operation with it, which is altogether likely, God has given us purgatory to still bring people who are not perfect into heaven. It is his means of perfecting us. Because nothing impure can enter heaven. Rev. 21:27.
What I find comforting is that when I die I will go straight to be with Him. ::clappingoverhead:: ::clappingoverhead:: ::clappingoverhead::
The Bible doesn't say that when you die you will go straight to be with Him. If you want to take comfort in that tradition of men, that is between you and God.
Now that is quite ironic, being that so many of the beliefs of the RC church are made up from the traditions of men. Nope its what God says in the Bible. Its also what many believers on their death bed have said, that they have seen Jesus and that he has come to welcome them. Praise Him. ::clappingoverhead::
I don't see Jesus coming to welcome people in scripture?
People are also visited by Mary on their deathbed.
It is not ironic at all. The "Tradition" the Catholic Church believes are the teachings of the apostles handed down, not traditions introduced by men.
It is not what God says in the Bible, and you can't even produce the scripture to show that it is.
: Catholica Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 13:30:49
: chosenone Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 13:29:05
: Catholica Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 13:24:34
: chosenone Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 13:22:25
: Adamski Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 10:25:43
: 4WD Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 10:08:17
: Adamski Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:57:06
I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting
Strange that the Rich Man in the Luke 16 account of the Rich Man and Lazarus did not find much comfort in it if that is where he was. If that is not where he was, then why wasn't it? Quite obviously he was very contrite, repentant and confessant.
That is because that is a vision of hell not purgatory there is a divide that can't be reached.
Purgatory as 1 Corinthians says is saved by fire:
Remember how you can't even look at God in the Old Testament while in heaven you will see the full vision of God and nothing impure can enter heaven and I still need a little purification
If you are His child, then you are washed clean through the blood of Jesus. Or is that not enough for you ??? ::headscratch:: ::frown:: ::shrug::
We don't subscribe to your theology so contradictory to the Bible verses that winsome posted.
My Bible says that I am washed clean through his death and resurrection, and that when I leave my body I will be with Him ::smile::
Neither of those things you say here preclude purgatory.
Not according to what you accept of Roman Catholic teaching, as you've stated. You accept what the church tells you.
However, there is nothing in the scriptures that in and of themselves prescribe Purgatory as the Roman Catholic church teaches Roman Catholics to believe.
I for one am not trying to change the mind of any Roman Catholic. I accept that they, as Roman Catholic member(s) here have stated, agree to accept what the RCC tells them to.
Rather, I am refuting the Roman Catholic that attempts to belittle Protestants for not being Roman Catholic. As has been demonstrated in numerous threads and texts posted by Roman Catholic(s).
This because certain Roman Catholics attempt to use the scriptures non-Roman Catholics hold in Sola Fide,(Faith Alone), something which the RCC holds is anathema per the council of Trent's decree long centuries ago,and as Sola Scriptura, (Scripture Alone), to deny that anyone
not Roman Catholic are not truly saved nor are they Christian. As has been implied numerous times in many threads throughout this forum.
::tippinghat::
: chosenone Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 13:37:20
: Catholica Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 13:30:49
: chosenone Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 13:29:05
: Catholica Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 13:24:34
: chosenone Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 13:22:25
: Adamski Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 10:25:43
: 4WD Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 10:08:17
: Adamski Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:57:06
I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting
Strange that the Rich Man in the Luke 16 account of the Rich Man and Lazarus did not find much comfort in it if that is where he was. If that is not where he was, then why wasn't it? Quite obviously he was very contrite, repentant and confessant.
That is because that is a vision of hell not purgatory there is a divide that can't be reached.
Purgatory as 1 Corinthians says is saved by fire:
Remember how you can't even look at God in the Old Testament while in heaven you will see the full vision of God and nothing impure can enter heaven and I still need a little purification
If you are His child, then you are washed clean through the blood of Jesus. Or is that not enough for you ??? ::headscratch:: ::frown:: ::shrug::
We don't subscribe to your theology so contradictory to the Bible verses that winsome posted.
My Bible says that I am washed clean through his death and resurrection, and that when I leave my body I will be with Him ::smile::
Neither of those things you say here preclude purgatory.
Not once has a place like that been mentioned in the Bible, its a completely man made belief that apparently wasnt thought up or invented till the 3rd century, and was done so the priests could make money from the very gullible by saying they will pray for those who have died if they hand over their money. VERY godly I dont think. ::frown:: I honestly cant believe that anyone would fall for that to be honest, but they didnt have Bibles then I suppose they knew no better. ::shrug::
The necessity of it's existence is all over scripture, as demonstrated by winsome.
Your conspiracy theories about it's origin are blasphemy.
The Catholic Church wrote the Bible and determined it's canon. They had Bibles alright, but the doctrine of purgatory precedes the New Testament and even precedes Christ's coming, a fact that no one here has even begun to deal with.
: Catholica Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 13:37:56
: chosenone Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 13:32:40
: Catholica Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 13:26:27
: chosenone Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 13:20:04
: Catholica Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 11:45:42
: MeMyself Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:58:48
: Adamski Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:57:06
I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting
How so?
I don't know if Adamski overlooked your question or not, but with all the stuff flying around here I consider it likely.
I too find it comforting, because I know that even should I fail to become perfect by the end of this life by the grace of Jesus Christ and my co-operation with it, which is altogether likely, God has given us purgatory to still bring people who are not perfect into heaven. It is his means of perfecting us. Because nothing impure can enter heaven. Rev. 21:27.
What I find comforting is that when I die I will go straight to be with Him. ::clappingoverhead:: ::clappingoverhead:: ::clappingoverhead::
The Bible doesn't say that when you die you will go straight to be with Him. If you want to take comfort in that tradition of men, that is between you and God.
Now that is quite ironic, being that so many of the beliefs of the RC church are made up from the traditions of men. Nope its what God says in the Bible. Its also what many believers on their death bed have said, that they have seen Jesus and that he has come to welcome them. Praise Him. ::clappingoverhead::
I don't see Jesus coming to welcome people in scripture?
People are also visited by Mary on their deathbed.
It is not ironic at all. The "Tradition" the Catholic Church believes are the teachings of the apostles handed down, not traditions introduced by men.
It is not what God says in the Bible, and you can't even produce the scripture to show that it is.
Fallen angels can appear as Mary and have done many times to fool people.
I have quoted scripture several times, and there isnt a single one that supports this man made teaching.
The Blood of Jesus is of course more than enough to save us completely and totally. Believing in this fictional place is saying that Jesus' sacrifice wasnt enough, but it was and it is. ::clappingoverhead::
: MeMyself Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 12:34:24
: 4WD Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 12:20:24
: MeMyself Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 11:50:39
: Catholica Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 11:45:42
: MeMyself Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:58:48
: Adamski Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:57:06
I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting
How so?
I don't know if Adamski overlooked your question or not, but with all the stuff flying around here I consider it likely.
I too find it comforting, because I know that even should I fail to become perfect by the end of this life by the grace of Jesus Christ and my co-operation with it, which is altogether likely, God has given us purgatory to still bring people who are not perfect into heaven. It is his means of perfecting us. Because nothing impure can enter heaven. Rev. 21:27.
How can what Jesus did for us, to atone for us, be lacking that a last ditch effort must be made to make us pure? The Word says we are clothed with Christ's robes of righteousness, that we become His righteousness.
We don't "become" His righteousness. His righteousness is not imparted; it is imputed. That is one reason why the Catholic view of purgatory is needed in that theology. They view His righteousness as being imparted. And that can't really happen, either before or after death. We can be forgiven our sins and have Jesus' righteousness imputed to us. Our sins can not be undone and thereby have righteousness imparted. It says that God will remember our sins no more; it doesn't say that they no longer exist. We committed the sins. That cannot be undone. That would require changing the past. That doesn't happen.
The Word says this:
2 Corinthians 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
So we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We beseech you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. Working together with him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain. (2Cor 5:20-6:1).
There are problems in Corinth. Paul is pleading with them to be reconciled to God (vs 5:20) and not to accept the grace of God in vain (vs 6:1). In between he explains that Christ died so that we says we
might become the righteousness of God - not that God can stick a false label on them saying 'righteous'.
God has the quality of righteousness which he infuses into man and so we can
become righteous with his righteousness.
When scripture refers to people being righteous it is because they
actually were righteous and it says why they were righteous – because they were blameless, upright, keeping God's commandments.
Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation; Noah walked with God. (Gen 6:9)
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was blameless and upright, one who feared God, and turned away from evil. (Job 1:1)
And they [Zechariah and Elizabeth] were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. (Lk 1:6)
: Catholica Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 13:41:14
The necessity of it's existence is all over scripture, as demonstrated by winsome.
Winsome demonstrates and has defended his necessity to accept that Purgatory exists, using scripture.
Jesus Christ demonstrated on the cross at calvary that we do not need to be purged, cleansed, of any clinging sins or earthly offenses after we're dead when we are made new in the light and love of Jesus Christ and that sacrifice that delivered that message at the cross. And by God's grace.
Your conspiracy theories about it's origin are blasphemy.
No, it is not. It is the word of God that tells all people about the prophecy, and the appointed mission, and the accomplishment of same, at the cross by Jesus Christ.
The Catholic Church wrote the Bible and determined it's canon. They had Bibles alright, but the doctrine of purgatory precedes the New Testament and even precedes Christ's coming, a fact that no one here has even begun to deal with.
You are correct in that the philosophy as relates to what the RCC calls Purgatory did indeed precede the New Testament. The majority of which was authored by the Apostle Paul, not the Apostle Peter. However, that philosophy has its roots in paganism.
Christians receive the testimony of the new testimony, the New Testament that Jesus Christ was born, lived, and died in order to fulfill.
And had he failed on the cross to take the sins of the world upon himself we would need something more to save our souls. But he did not and therefore we do not.
Please understand this. No Christian is obligated to incorporate the dictates of the Roman's Catholic church into their faith in order to be saved. And no, that is not saying that Roman Catholics are not Christian. It is saying that Jesus Christ, the reason we refer to ourselves as Christians due to our faith and trust in him and his message, preceded the Roman Catholic church.
And if, as has been claimed, the RCC is God's church on earth and it is that argument that may arrive now to say again that the establishment of that church is the sole/soul reason for Jesus coming to earth to fulfill prophecy and his mission to establish a covenant with people in the first place, then by God's will the RCC would have been empowered very shortly after Jesus departed to be with the Father. Not nearly 289 years later due to the
Edict of Milan in 313 A.D. being drafted by Emperor Constantine, with the assistance of the eastern Emperor Licinius in the province of Milan.
This is to state in the historic record that the RCC is well aware of that contrary to what some may hope to assert, there were saved Heaven bound Christians for nearly 300 years before the birth of the Roman's Catholic idea of what Christianity means. They just had to risk their lives to hold to their faith, and often did, because Rome made their faith illegal and often prosecuted as a death penalty offense.
Interesting how an authority that first killed God in human form later built a church and a religious doctrine to his name.
This is just another discipline that is of interest to many Christians. Christian history. It's fascinating.
: Buster D Body Crab Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 14:01:57
And if, as has been claimed, the RCC is God's church on earth and it is that argument that may arrive now to say again that the establishment of that church is the sole/soul reason for Jesus coming to earth to fulfill prophecy and his mission to establish a covenant with people in the first place, then by God's will the RCC would have been empowered very shortly after Jesus departed to be with the Father. Not nearly 289 years later due to the Edict of Milan in 313 A.D. being drafted by Emperor Constantine, with the assistance of the eastern Emperor Licinius in the province of Milan.
This is to state in the historic record that the RCC is well aware of that contrary to what some may hope to assert, there were saved Heaven bound Christians for nearly 300 years before the birth of the Roman's Catholic idea of what Christianity means. They just had to risk their lives to hold to their faith, and often did, because Rome made their faith illegal and often prosecuted as a death penalty offense.
Interesting how an authority that first killed God in human form later built a church and a religious doctrine to his name.
This is just another discipline that is of interest to many Christians. Christian history. It's fascinating.
The Edict of Milan did not create the Catholic Church. It ended the persecution of Christians and gave them the same legal rights as pagans.
When I, Constantine Augustus, as well as I Licinius Augustus d fortunately met near Mediolanurn (Milan), and were considering everything that pertained to the public welfare and security, we thought -, among other things which we saw would be for the good of many, those regulations pertaining to the reverence of the Divinity ought certainly to be made first, so that we might grant to the Christians and others full authority to observe that religion which each preferred; whence any Divinity whatsoever in the seat of the heavens may be propitious and kindly disposed to us and all who are placed under our rule And thus by this wholesome counsel and most upright provision we thought to arrange that no one whatsoever should be denied the opportunity to give his heart to the observance of the Christian religion, of that religion which he should think best for himself, so that the Supreme Deity, to whose worship we freely yield our hearts) may show in all things His usual favor and benevolence. T
herefore, your Worship should know that it has pleased us to remove all conditions whatsoever, which were in the rescripts formerly given to you officially, concerning the Christians and now any one of these who wishes to observe Christian religion may do so freely and openly, without molestation. We thought it fit to commend these things most fully to your care that you may know that we have given to those Christians free and unrestricted opportunity of religious worship. When you see that this has been granted to them by us, your Worship will know that we have also conceded to other religions the right of open and free observance of their worship for the sake of the peace of our times, that each one may have the free opportunity to worship as he pleases ; this regulation is made we that we may not seem to detract from any dignity or any religion.
http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/source/edict-milan.asp (http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/source/edict-milan.asp)
The Catholic Church was founded by Christ almost 300 years before the Edict of Milan.
P.S. What has this to do with Purgatory? Is it just throwing a dead cat on the table?
: winsome Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 14:17:16
: Buster D Body Crab Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 14:01:57
And if, as has been claimed, the RCC is God's church on earth and it is that argument that may arrive now to say again that the establishment of that church is the sole/soul reason for Jesus coming to earth to fulfill prophecy and his mission to establish a covenant with people in the first place, then by God's will the RCC would have been empowered very shortly after Jesus departed to be with the Father. Not nearly 289 years later due to the Edict of Milan in 313 A.D. being drafted by Emperor Constantine, with the assistance of the eastern Emperor Licinius in the province of Milan.
This is to state in the historic record that the RCC is well aware of that contrary to what some may hope to assert, there were saved Heaven bound Christians for nearly 300 years before the birth of the Roman's Catholic idea of what Christianity means. They just had to risk their lives to hold to their faith, and often did, because Rome made their faith illegal and often prosecuted as a death penalty offense.
Interesting how an authority that first killed God in human form later built a church and a religious doctrine to his name.
This is just another discipline that is of interest to many Christians. Christian history. It's fascinating.
The Edict of Milan did not create the Catholic Church. It ended the persecution of Christians and gave them the same legal rights as pagans.
When I, Constantine Augustus, as well as I Licinius Augustus d fortunately met near Mediolanurn (Milan), and were considering everything that pertained to the public welfare and security, we thought -, among other things which we saw would be for the good of many, those regulations pertaining to the reverence of the Divinity ought certainly to be made first, so that we might grant to the Christians and others full authority to observe that religion which each preferred; whence any Divinity whatsoever in the seat of the heavens may be propitious and kindly disposed to us and all who are placed under our rule And thus by this wholesome counsel and most upright provision we thought to arrange that no one whatsoever should be denied the opportunity to give his heart to the observance of the Christian religion, of that religion which he should think best for himself, so that the Supreme Deity, to whose worship we freely yield our hearts) may show in all things His usual favor and benevolence. Therefore, your Worship should know that it has pleased us to remove all conditions whatsoever, which were in the rescripts formerly given to you officially, concerning the Christians and now any one of these who wishes to observe Christian religion may do so freely and openly, without molestation. We thought it fit to commend these things most fully to your care that you may know that we have given to those Christians free and unrestricted opportunity of religious worship. When you see that this has been granted to them by us, your Worship will know that we have also conceded to other religions the right of open and free observance of their worship for the sake of the peace of our times, that each one may have the free opportunity to worship as he pleases ; this regulation is made we that we may not seem to detract from any dignity or any religion.
http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/source/edict-milan.asp (http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/source/edict-milan.asp)
The Catholic Church was founded by Christ almost 300 years before the Edict of Milan.
P.S. What has this to do with Purgatory? Is it just throwing a dead cat on the table?
I understand that is what you believe because that is what the Roman Catholic church teaches you.
And this has everything to do with Purgatory, as many know, because Purgatory is a teaching of the Roman Catholic church. Therefore the time-line as pertains to the Roman Catholic church establishment is pertinent to when Purgatory was introduced as an extra-Biblical doctrine and by the Roman's Catholic church.
Jesus did not establish the Roman Catholic church.
However, it is true that Jesus did establish the catholic faith. And that is at the core of his teachings meaning all faithful to his gospel are catholic, members of the universal covenant, the church being the body of Christ believers. That is why there is a difference between the Roman Catholic church and her establishment on earth. And the Greek
katholikos, "on the whole, all embracing".
Catholic in the years after Jesus ascended to the Father described the body of believers as a whole.
Roman Catholic describes a body of churches in alignment with the Bishop of Rome. But you know this. It is what the Roman Catholic church teaches as to its authority as holy mother church.
Edit to add: I am going to depart this conversation now. It is only going in circles.
There is enough information posted by other Protestants so as to inform any seeker who may be looking for scriptural support in either case, Roman Catholicism or Protestantism, to proceed of their own accord in study.
God Bless.
: Buster D Body Crab Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 14:32:33
: winsome Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 14:17:16
: Buster D Body Crab Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 14:01:57
And if, as has been claimed, the RCC is God's church on earth and it is that argument that may arrive now to say again that the establishment of that church is the sole/soul reason for Jesus coming to earth to fulfill prophecy and his mission to establish a covenant with people in the first place, then by God's will the RCC would have been empowered very shortly after Jesus departed to be with the Father. Not nearly 289 years later due to the Edict of Milan in 313 A.D. being drafted by Emperor Constantine, with the assistance of the eastern Emperor Licinius in the province of Milan.
This is to state in the historic record that the RCC is well aware of that contrary to what some may hope to assert, there were saved Heaven bound Christians for nearly 300 years before the birth of the Roman's Catholic idea of what Christianity means. They just had to risk their lives to hold to their faith, and often did, because Rome made their faith illegal and often prosecuted as a death penalty offense.
Interesting how an authority that first killed God in human form later built a church and a religious doctrine to his name.
This is just another discipline that is of interest to many Christians. Christian history. It's fascinating.
The Edict of Milan did not create the Catholic Church. It ended the persecution of Christians and gave them the same legal rights as pagans.
When I, Constantine Augustus, as well as I Licinius Augustus d fortunately met near Mediolanurn (Milan), and were considering everything that pertained to the public welfare and security, we thought -, among other things which we saw would be for the good of many, those regulations pertaining to the reverence of the Divinity ought certainly to be made first, so that we might grant to the Christians and others full authority to observe that religion which each preferred; whence any Divinity whatsoever in the seat of the heavens may be propitious and kindly disposed to us and all who are placed under our rule And thus by this wholesome counsel and most upright provision we thought to arrange that no one whatsoever should be denied the opportunity to give his heart to the observance of the Christian religion, of that religion which he should think best for himself, so that the Supreme Deity, to whose worship we freely yield our hearts) may show in all things His usual favor and benevolence. Therefore, your Worship should know that it has pleased us to remove all conditions whatsoever, which were in the rescripts formerly given to you officially, concerning the Christians and now any one of these who wishes to observe Christian religion may do so freely and openly, without molestation. We thought it fit to commend these things most fully to your care that you may know that we have given to those Christians free and unrestricted opportunity of religious worship. When you see that this has been granted to them by us, your Worship will know that we have also conceded to other religions the right of open and free observance of their worship for the sake of the peace of our times, that each one may have the free opportunity to worship as he pleases ; this regulation is made we that we may not seem to detract from any dignity or any religion.
http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/source/edict-milan.asp (http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/source/edict-milan.asp)
The Catholic Church was founded by Christ almost 300 years before the Edict of Milan.
P.S. What has this to do with Purgatory? Is it just throwing a dead cat on the table?
I understand that is what you believe because that is what the Roman Catholic church teaches you.
And this has everything to do with Purgatory, as many know, because Purgatory is a teaching of the Roman Catholic church. Therefore the time-line as pertains to the Roman Catholic church establishment is pertinent to when Purgatory was introduced as an extra-Biblical doctrine and by the Roman's Catholic church.
Jesus did not establish the Roman Catholic church. Nor did he teach what is now practiced and promoted in his name by the Roman Catholic church. Purgatory just one example.
However, it is true that Jesus did establish the catholic faith. And that is at the core of his teachings meaning all faithful to his gospel are catholic, members of the universal covenant, the church being the body of Christ believers. That is why there is a difference between the Roman Catholic church and her establishment on earth. And the Greek katholikos, "on the whole, all embracing".
Catholic in the years after Jesus ascended to the Father described the body of believers as a whole.
Roman Catholic describes a body of churches in alignment with the Bishop of Rome. But you know this. It is what the Roman Catholic church teaches as to its authority as holy mother church.
Edit to add: I am going to depart this conversation now. It is only going in circles.
There is enough information posted by other Protestants so as to inform any seeker who may be looking for scriptural support in either case, Roman Catholicism or Protestantism, to proceed of their own accord in study.
God Bless.
: Buster D Body Crab Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 14:32:33
: winsome Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 14:17:16
: Buster D Body Crab Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 14:01:57
And if, as has been claimed, the RCC is God's church on earth and it is that argument that may arrive now to say again that the establishment of that church is the sole/soul reason for Jesus coming to earth to fulfill prophecy and his mission to establish a covenant with people in the first place, then by God's will the RCC would have been empowered very shortly after Jesus departed to be with the Father. Not nearly 289 years later due to the Edict of Milan in 313 A.D. being drafted by Emperor Constantine, with the assistance of the eastern Emperor Licinius in the province of Milan.
This is to state in the historic record that the RCC is well aware of that contrary to what some may hope to assert, there were saved Heaven bound Christians for nearly 300 years before the birth of the Roman's Catholic idea of what Christianity means. They just had to risk their lives to hold to their faith, and often did, because Rome made their faith illegal and often prosecuted as a death penalty offense.
Interesting how an authority that first killed God in human form later built a church and a religious doctrine to his name.
This is just another discipline that is of interest to many Christians. Christian history. It's fascinating.
The Edict of Milan did not create the Catholic Church. It ended the persecution of Christians and gave them the same legal rights as pagans.
When I, Constantine Augustus, as well as I Licinius Augustus d fortunately met near Mediolanurn (Milan), and were considering everything that pertained to the public welfare and security, we thought -, among other things which we saw would be for the good of many, those regulations pertaining to the reverence of the Divinity ought certainly to be made first, so that we might grant to the Christians and others full authority to observe that religion which each preferred; whence any Divinity whatsoever in the seat of the heavens may be propitious and kindly disposed to us and all who are placed under our rule And thus by this wholesome counsel and most upright provision we thought to arrange that no one whatsoever should be denied the opportunity to give his heart to the observance of the Christian religion, of that religion which he should think best for himself, so that the Supreme Deity, to whose worship we freely yield our hearts) may show in all things His usual favor and benevolence. Therefore, your Worship should know that it has pleased us to remove all conditions whatsoever, which were in the rescripts formerly given to you officially, concerning the Christians and now any one of these who wishes to observe Christian religion may do so freely and openly, without molestation. We thought it fit to commend these things most fully to your care that you may know that we have given to those Christians free and unrestricted opportunity of religious worship. When you see that this has been granted to them by us, your Worship will know that we have also conceded to other religions the right of open and free observance of their worship for the sake of the peace of our times, that each one may have the free opportunity to worship as he pleases ; this regulation is made we that we may not seem to detract from any dignity or any religion.
http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/source/edict-milan.asp (http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/source/edict-milan.asp)
The Catholic Church was founded by Christ almost 300 years before the Edict of Milan.
P.S. What has this to do with Purgatory? Is it just throwing a dead cat on the table?
I understand that is what you believe because that is what the Roman Catholic church teaches you.
And this has everything to do with Purgatory, as many know, because Purgatory is a teaching of the Roman Catholic church. Therefore the time-line as pertains to the Roman Catholic church establishment is pertinent to when Purgatory was introduced as an extra-Biblical doctrine and by the Roman's Catholic church.
Jesus did not establish the Roman Catholic church.
However, it is true that Jesus did establish the catholic faith. And that is at the core of his teachings meaning all faithful to his gospel are catholic, members of the universal covenant, the church being the body of Christ believers. That is why there is a difference between the Roman Catholic church and her establishment on earth. And the Greek katholikos, "on the whole, all embracing".
Catholic in the years after Jesus ascended to the Father described the body of believers as a whole.
Roman Catholic describes a body of churches in alignment with the Bishop of Rome. But you know this. It is what the Roman Catholic church teaches as to its authority as holy mother church.
Edit to add: I am going to depart this conversation now. It is only going in circles.
There is enough information posted by other Protestants so as to inform any seeker who may be looking for scriptural support in either case, Roman Catholicism or Protestantism, to proceed of their own accord in study.
God Bless.
As I thought. It was a dead cat on the table but it didn't achieve it's aims.
You say "
Jesus did not establish the Roman Catholic church."but failed in your attempt to show who did.
: winsome Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 14:49:58
: Buster D Body Crab Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 14:32:33
: winsome Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 14:17:16
: Buster D Body Crab Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 14:01:57
And if, as has been claimed, the RCC is God's church on earth and it is that argument that may arrive now to say again that the establishment of that church is the sole/soul reason for Jesus coming to earth to fulfill prophecy and his mission to establish a covenant with people in the first place, then by God's will the RCC would have been empowered very shortly after Jesus departed to be with the Father. Not nearly 289 years later due to the Edict of Milan in 313 A.D. being drafted by Emperor Constantine, with the assistance of the eastern Emperor Licinius in the province of Milan.
This is to state in the historic record that the RCC is well aware of that contrary to what some may hope to assert, there were saved Heaven bound Christians for nearly 300 years before the birth of the Roman's Catholic idea of what Christianity means. They just had to risk their lives to hold to their faith, and often did, because Rome made their faith illegal and often prosecuted as a death penalty offense.
Interesting how an authority that first killed God in human form later built a church and a religious doctrine to his name.
This is just another discipline that is of interest to many Christians. Christian history. It's fascinating.
The Edict of Milan did not create the Catholic Church. It ended the persecution of Christians and gave them the same legal rights as pagans.
When I, Constantine Augustus, as well as I Licinius Augustus d fortunately met near Mediolanurn (Milan), and were considering everything that pertained to the public welfare and security, we thought -, among other things which we saw would be for the good of many, those regulations pertaining to the reverence of the Divinity ought certainly to be made first, so that we might grant to the Christians and others full authority to observe that religion which each preferred; whence any Divinity whatsoever in the seat of the heavens may be propitious and kindly disposed to us and all who are placed under our rule And thus by this wholesome counsel and most upright provision we thought to arrange that no one whatsoever should be denied the opportunity to give his heart to the observance of the Christian religion, of that religion which he should think best for himself, so that the Supreme Deity, to whose worship we freely yield our hearts) may show in all things His usual favor and benevolence. Therefore, your Worship should know that it has pleased us to remove all conditions whatsoever, which were in the rescripts formerly given to you officially, concerning the Christians and now any one of these who wishes to observe Christian religion may do so freely and openly, without molestation. We thought it fit to commend these things most fully to your care that you may know that we have given to those Christians free and unrestricted opportunity of religious worship. When you see that this has been granted to them by us, your Worship will know that we have also conceded to other religions the right of open and free observance of their worship for the sake of the peace of our times, that each one may have the free opportunity to worship as he pleases ; this regulation is made we that we may not seem to detract from any dignity or any religion.
http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/source/edict-milan.asp (http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/source/edict-milan.asp)
The Catholic Church was founded by Christ almost 300 years before the Edict of Milan.
P.S. What has this to do with Purgatory? Is it just throwing a dead cat on the table?
I understand that is what you believe because that is what the Roman Catholic church teaches you.
And this has everything to do with Purgatory, as many know, because Purgatory is a teaching of the Roman Catholic church. Therefore the time-line as pertains to the Roman Catholic church establishment is pertinent to when Purgatory was introduced as an extra-Biblical doctrine and by the Roman's Catholic church.
Jesus did not establish the Roman Catholic church.
However, it is true that Jesus did establish the catholic faith. And that is at the core of his teachings meaning all faithful to his gospel are catholic, members of the universal covenant, the church being the body of Christ believers. That is why there is a difference between the Roman Catholic church and her establishment on earth. And the Greek katholikos, "on the whole, all embracing".
Catholic in the years after Jesus ascended to the Father described the body of believers as a whole.
Roman Catholic describes a body of churches in alignment with the Bishop of Rome. But you know this. It is what the Roman Catholic church teaches as to its authority as holy mother church.
Edit to add: I am going to depart this conversation now. It is only going in circles.
There is enough information posted by other Protestants so as to inform any seeker who may be looking for scriptural support in either case, Roman Catholicism or Protestantism, to proceed of their own accord in study.
God Bless.
As I thought. It was a dead cat on the table but it didn't achieve it's aims.
You say "Jesus did not establish the Roman Catholic church."but failed in your attempt to show who did.
Constantine. ::crackup::
: Catholica Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 13:26:27
: chosenone Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 13:20:04
: Catholica Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 11:45:42
: MeMyself Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:58:48
: Adamski Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:57:06
I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting
How so?
I don't know if Adamski overlooked your question or not, but with all the stuff flying around here I consider it likely.
I too find it comforting, because I know that even should I fail to become perfect by the end of this life by the grace of Jesus Christ and my co-operation with it, which is altogether likely, God has given us purgatory to still bring people who are not perfect into heaven. It is his means of perfecting us. Because nothing impure can enter heaven. Rev. 21:27.
What I find comforting is that when I die I will go straight to be with Him. ::clappingoverhead:: ::clappingoverhead:: ::clappingoverhead::
The Bible doesn't say that when you die you will go straight to be with Him. If you want to take comfort in that tradition of men, that is between you and God.
Catholica, you are the last one that should argue against taking comfort in a tradition of men. That is the basis for a good bit of your theology. You even taut it as equal along side of the Scriptures.
: 4WD Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 15:20:17
: Catholica Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 13:26:27
: chosenone Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 13:20:04
: Catholica Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 11:45:42
: MeMyself Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:58:48
: Adamski Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:57:06
I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting
How so?
I don't know if Adamski overlooked your question or not, but with all the stuff flying around here I consider it likely.
I too find it comforting, because I know that even should I fail to become perfect by the end of this life by the grace of Jesus Christ and my co-operation with it, which is altogether likely, God has given us purgatory to still bring people who are not perfect into heaven. It is his means of perfecting us. Because nothing impure can enter heaven. Rev. 21:27.
What I find comforting is that when I die I will go straight to be with Him. ::clappingoverhead:: ::clappingoverhead:: ::clappingoverhead::
The Bible doesn't say that when you die you will go straight to be with Him. If you want to take comfort in that tradition of men, that is between you and God.
Catholica, you are the last one that should argue against taking comfort in a tradition of men. That is the basis for a good bit of your theology. You even taut it as equal along side of the Scriptures.
Sacred Tradition is the teaching of God, handed down by Jesus through the apostles. It is altogether a different thing than what scripture refers to as "traditions of men".
: Catholica Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 15:21:27
: 4WD Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 15:20:17
: Catholica Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 13:26:27
: chosenone Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 13:20:04
: Catholica Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 11:45:42
: MeMyself Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:58:48
: Adamski Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:57:06
I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting
How so?
I don't know if Adamski overlooked your question or not, but with all the stuff flying around here I consider it likely.
I too find it comforting, because I know that even should I fail to become perfect by the end of this life by the grace of Jesus Christ and my co-operation with it, which is altogether likely, God has given us purgatory to still bring people who are not perfect into heaven. It is his means of perfecting us. Because nothing impure can enter heaven. Rev. 21:27.
What I find comforting is that when I die I will go straight to be with Him. ::clappingoverhead:: ::clappingoverhead:: ::clappingoverhead::
The Bible doesn't say that when you die you will go straight to be with Him. If you want to take comfort in that tradition of men, that is between you and God.
Catholica, you are the last one that should argue against taking comfort in a tradition of men. That is the basis for a good bit of your theology. You even taut it as equal along side of the Scriptures.
Sacred Tradition is the teaching of God, handed down by Jesus through the apostles. It is altogether a different thing than what scripture refers to as "traditions of men".
So you would claim and so you would like to believe. The Pharisees felt pretty much the same about their traditions. But Jesus railed against them. He was pretty adamant that such traditions were outside Scripture, speaking only of the Law, the Prophets and Psalms.
: 4WD Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 15:29:21
: Catholica Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 15:21:27
: 4WD Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 15:20:17
: Catholica Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 13:26:27
: chosenone Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 13:20:04
: Catholica Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 11:45:42
: MeMyself Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:58:48
: Adamski Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 09:57:06
I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting
How so?
I don't know if Adamski overlooked your question or not, but with all the stuff flying around here I consider it likely.
I too find it comforting, because I know that even should I fail to become perfect by the end of this life by the grace of Jesus Christ and my co-operation with it, which is altogether likely, God has given us purgatory to still bring people who are not perfect into heaven. It is his means of perfecting us. Because nothing impure can enter heaven. Rev. 21:27.
What I find comforting is that when I die I will go straight to be with Him. ::clappingoverhead:: ::clappingoverhead:: ::clappingoverhead::
The Bible doesn't say that when you die you will go straight to be with Him. If you want to take comfort in that tradition of men, that is between you and God.
Catholica, you are the last one that should argue against taking comfort in a tradition of men. That is the basis for a good bit of your theology. You even taut it as equal along side of the Scriptures.
Sacred Tradition is the teaching of God, handed down by Jesus through the apostles. It is altogether a different thing than what scripture refers to as "traditions of men".
So you would claim and so you would like to believe. The Pharisees felt pretty much the same about their traditions. But Jesus railed against them. He was pretty adamant that such traditions were outside Scripture, speaking only of the Law, the Prophets and Psalms.
Paul promotes oral tradition. Are you one who believes that Paul and Jesus taught different gospels? Just checking, because some non-Catholics out there do.
Jesus was referring to practices that "bypassed the commandments of God". For example, the Jews were commanded to honor their father and mother and this meant supporting them financially. To bypass this commandment (and keep their money) they "dedicated their money to the temple". That is the tradition that Jesus is railing against in scripture. See Mark 7.
Since Jesus and Paul preached the SAME gospel, and Paul explicitly promotes obeying oral teachings (2 Thess. 2:15) and because one can see that Jesus is referring to a particular type of tradition, one can see that in fact Oral Sacred Tradition is NOT railed against by Jesus.
That is not even taking into account the FACT that before the NT was put to paper, the entirety of the Gospel was maintained in Sacred Oral Tradition.
It is preposterous, therefore, to interpret Jesus as saying that the practice of Oral Tradition is wrong.
Not only that, but there are many things in Scripture, references to events and prophecies, that are not actually written in scripture but are part of Oral Tradition. These include, the battle over the Body of Moses in the book of Jude, the "Chair of Moses" referred to by Jesus in Matthew 23, and the prophecy "He shall be called a Nazarene" referenced in Matthew 2:23.
: 4WD Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 15:17:52
: winsome Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 14:49:58
: Buster D Body Crab Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 14:32:33
: winsome Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 14:17:16
: Buster D Body Crab Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 14:01:57
And if, as has been claimed, the RCC is God's church on earth and it is that argument that may arrive now to say again that the establishment of that church is the sole/soul reason for Jesus coming to earth to fulfill prophecy and his mission to establish a covenant with people in the first place, then by God's will the RCC would have been empowered very shortly after Jesus departed to be with the Father. Not nearly 289 years later due to the Edict of Milan in 313 A.D. being drafted by Emperor Constantine, with the assistance of the eastern Emperor Licinius in the province of Milan.
This is to state in the historic record that the RCC is well aware of that contrary to what some may hope to assert, there were saved Heaven bound Christians for nearly 300 years before the birth of the Roman's Catholic idea of what Christianity means. They just had to risk their lives to hold to their faith, and often did, because Rome made their faith illegal and often prosecuted as a death penalty offense.
Interesting how an authority that first killed God in human form later built a church and a religious doctrine to his name.
This is just another discipline that is of interest to many Christians. Christian history. It's fascinating.
The Edict of Milan did not create the Catholic Church. It ended the persecution of Christians and gave them the same legal rights as pagans.
When I, Constantine Augustus, as well as I Licinius Augustus d fortunately met near Mediolanurn (Milan), and were considering everything that pertained to the public welfare and security, we thought -, among other things which we saw would be for the good of many, those regulations pertaining to the reverence of the Divinity ought certainly to be made first, so that we might grant to the Christians and others full authority to observe that religion which each preferred; whence any Divinity whatsoever in the seat of the heavens may be propitious and kindly disposed to us and all who are placed under our rule And thus by this wholesome counsel and most upright provision we thought to arrange that no one whatsoever should be denied the opportunity to give his heart to the observance of the Christian religion, of that religion which he should think best for himself, so that the Supreme Deity, to whose worship we freely yield our hearts) may show in all things His usual favor and benevolence. Therefore, your Worship should know that it has pleased us to remove all conditions whatsoever, which were in the rescripts formerly given to you officially, concerning the Christians and now any one of these who wishes to observe Christian religion may do so freely and openly, without molestation. We thought it fit to commend these things most fully to your care that you may know that we have given to those Christians free and unrestricted opportunity of religious worship. When you see that this has been granted to them by us, your Worship will know that we have also conceded to other religions the right of open and free observance of their worship for the sake of the peace of our times, that each one may have the free opportunity to worship as he pleases ; this regulation is made we that we may not seem to detract from any dignity or any religion.
http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/source/edict-milan.asp (http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/source/edict-milan.asp)
The Catholic Church was founded by Christ almost 300 years before the Edict of Milan.
P.S. What has this to do with Purgatory? Is it just throwing a dead cat on the table?
I understand that is what you believe because that is what the Roman Catholic church teaches you.
And this has everything to do with Purgatory, as many know, because Purgatory is a teaching of the Roman Catholic church. Therefore the time-line as pertains to the Roman Catholic church establishment is pertinent to when Purgatory was introduced as an extra-Biblical doctrine and by the Roman's Catholic church.
Jesus did not establish the Roman Catholic church.
However, it is true that Jesus did establish the catholic faith. And that is at the core of his teachings meaning all faithful to his gospel are catholic, members of the universal covenant, the church being the body of Christ believers. That is why there is a difference between the Roman Catholic church and her establishment on earth. And the Greek katholikos, "on the whole, all embracing".
Catholic in the years after Jesus ascended to the Father described the body of believers as a whole.
Roman Catholic describes a body of churches in alignment with the Bishop of Rome. But you know this. It is what the Roman Catholic church teaches as to its authority as holy mother church.
Edit to add: I am going to depart this conversation now. It is only going in circles.
There is enough information posted by other Protestants so as to inform any seeker who may be looking for scriptural support in either case, Roman Catholicism or Protestantism, to proceed of their own accord in study.
God Bless.
As I thought. It was a dead cat on the table but it didn't achieve it's aims.
You say "Jesus did not establish the Roman Catholic church."but failed in your attempt to show who did.
Constantine. ::crackup::
Prove it.
: Buster D Body Crab Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 10:24:46For Red Baker, I didn't respond because I figured you were caught up in the tide of discord others feed off of when focusing their contempt for me into recruitment of others. I am me! I am not a sock account for any other member here. I hope that satisfies your curiosity.
I also hope, since this thread has gone on far enough with the personal attacks against myself, that those cease! So that the rules are no longer violated here.
Good enough for me~I got blamed for a remark that I DID NOT say~But all has been erased. It said:
Post: I think that Buster joined the forum with a deceptive "story". That being said, I have yet to see him use his own knowledge of the Bible to respond to anyone.
These words were NOT written by me~but by Catholica I believe. I would like an apology from someone, or at least a correction.
: winsome Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 04:49:20
: 4WD Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 15:17:52
: winsome Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 14:49:58
: Buster D Body Crab Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 14:32:33
: winsome Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 14:17:16
: Buster D Body Crab Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 14:01:57
And if, as has been claimed, the RCC is God's church on earth and it is that argument that may arrive now to say again that the establishment of that church is the sole/soul reason for Jesus coming to earth to fulfill prophecy and his mission to establish a covenant with people in the first place, then by God's will the RCC would have been empowered very shortly after Jesus departed to be with the Father. Not nearly 289 years later due to the Edict of Milan in 313 A.D. being drafted by Emperor Constantine, with the assistance of the eastern Emperor Licinius in the province of Milan.
This is to state in the historic record that the RCC is well aware of that contrary to what some may hope to assert, there were saved Heaven bound Christians for nearly 300 years before the birth of the Roman's Catholic idea of what Christianity means. They just had to risk their lives to hold to their faith, and often did, because Rome made their faith illegal and often prosecuted as a death penalty offense.
Interesting how an authority that first killed God in human form later built a church and a religious doctrine to his name.
This is just another discipline that is of interest to many Christians. Christian history. It's fascinating.
The Edict of Milan did not create the Catholic Church. It ended the persecution of Christians and gave them the same legal rights as pagans.
When I, Constantine Augustus, as well as I Licinius Augustus d fortunately met near Mediolanurn (Milan), and were considering everything that pertained to the public welfare and security, we thought -, among other things which we saw would be for the good of many, those regulations pertaining to the reverence of the Divinity ought certainly to be made first, so that we might grant to the Christians and others full authority to observe that religion which each preferred; whence any Divinity whatsoever in the seat of the heavens may be propitious and kindly disposed to us and all who are placed under our rule And thus by this wholesome counsel and most upright provision we thought to arrange that no one whatsoever should be denied the opportunity to give his heart to the observance of the Christian religion, of that religion which he should think best for himself, so that the Supreme Deity, to whose worship we freely yield our hearts) may show in all things His usual favor and benevolence. Therefore, your Worship should know that it has pleased us to remove all conditions whatsoever, which were in the rescripts formerly given to you officially, concerning the Christians and now any one of these who wishes to observe Christian religion may do so freely and openly, without molestation. We thought it fit to commend these things most fully to your care that you may know that we have given to those Christians free and unrestricted opportunity of religious worship. When you see that this has been granted to them by us, your Worship will know that we have also conceded to other religions the right of open and free observance of their worship for the sake of the peace of our times, that each one may have the free opportunity to worship as he pleases ; this regulation is made we that we may not seem to detract from any dignity or any religion.
http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/source/edict-milan.asp (http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/source/edict-milan.asp)
The Catholic Church was founded by Christ almost 300 years before the Edict of Milan.
P.S. What has this to do with Purgatory? Is it just throwing a dead cat on the table?
I understand that is what you believe because that is what the Roman Catholic church teaches you.
And this has everything to do with Purgatory, as many know, because Purgatory is a teaching of the Roman Catholic church. Therefore the time-line as pertains to the Roman Catholic church establishment is pertinent to when Purgatory was introduced as an extra-Biblical doctrine and by the Roman's Catholic church.
Jesus did not establish the Roman Catholic church.
However, it is true that Jesus did establish the catholic faith. And that is at the core of his teachings meaning all faithful to his gospel are catholic, members of the universal covenant, the church being the body of Christ believers. That is why there is a difference between the Roman Catholic church and her establishment on earth. And the Greek katholikos, "on the whole, all embracing".
Catholic in the years after Jesus ascended to the Father described the body of believers as a whole.
Roman Catholic describes a body of churches in alignment with the Bishop of Rome. But you know this. It is what the Roman Catholic church teaches as to its authority as holy mother church.
Edit to add: I am going to depart this conversation now. It is only going in circles.
There is enough information posted by other Protestants so as to inform any seeker who may be looking for scriptural support in either case, Roman Catholicism or Protestantism, to proceed of their own accord in study.
God Bless.
As I thought. It was a dead cat on the table but it didn't achieve it's aims.
You say "Jesus did not establish the Roman Catholic church."but failed in your attempt to show who did.
Constantine. ::crackup::
Prove it.
It's tradition. ::crackup::
: Red Baker Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 05:08:59
: Buster D Body Crab Wed Apr 15, 2015 - 10:24:46For Red Baker, I didn't respond because I figured you were caught up in the tide of discord others feed off of when focusing their contempt for me into recruitment of others. I am me! I am not a sock account for any other member here. I hope that satisfies your curiosity.
I also hope, since this thread has gone on far enough with the personal attacks against myself, that those cease! So that the rules are no longer violated here.
Good enough for me~I got blamed for a remark that I DID NOT say~But all has been erased. It said:
Post: I think that Buster joined the forum with a deceptive "story". That being said, I have yet to see him use his own knowledge of the Bible to respond to anyone.
These words were NOT written by me~but by Catholica I believe. I would like an apology from someone, or at least a correction.
That was me, and if someone attributed this to Red, then they do owe him an apology.
As Red Baker has said his errors were reported and addressed, and the mistake attributed to him were corrected by staff.
Let's let this thread move forward. Or if the OP author requests, it can be closed because it has run its course.
I doubt that winsome is going to ask it to be closed. He is still waiting for someone to actually respond to his OP!
: Catholica Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 12:05:33
I doubt that winsome is going to ask it to be closed. He is still waiting for someone to actually respond to his OP!
There is always a chance that someone may address the points I raised rather than diverting off into side issues.
: winsome Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 12:39:38
: Catholica Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 12:05:33
I doubt that winsome is going to ask it to be closed. He is still waiting for someone to actually respond to his OP!
There is always a chance that someone may address the points I raised rather than diverting off into side issues.
I responded in reply #3 to the first part of your OP. I stopped with that.
I read that.
Many have responded to the OP.After an accrual of these many pages that should be obvious enough.
: 4WD Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 13:38:15
: winsome Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 12:39:38
: Catholica Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 12:05:33
I doubt that winsome is going to ask it to be closed. He is still waiting for someone to actually respond to his OP!
There is always a chance that someone may address the points I raised rather than diverting off into side issues.
I responded in reply #3 to the first part of your OP. I stopped with that.
You didn't address a single point though, just stated an opinion and didn't address any of the scripture winsome provided.
The kind of reply that we are looking for is one that addresses winsome's points in his post.
: Catholica Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 13:50:23
: 4WD Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 13:38:15
: winsome Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 12:39:38
: Catholica Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 12:05:33
I doubt that winsome is going to ask it to be closed. He is still waiting for someone to actually respond to his OP!
There is always a chance that someone may address the points I raised rather than diverting off into side issues.
I responded in reply #3 to the first part of your OP. I stopped with that.
You didn't address a single point though, just stated an opinion and didn't address any of the scripture winsome provided.
The kind of reply that we are looking for is one that addresses winsome's points in his post.
I did address them. There is no mention of purgatory in any of them. And so far as I am concerned there is not even a suggestion of a purgatory in any of them. Now you can disagree with me about that and I can accept that.
: 4WD Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 14:12:14
: Catholica Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 13:50:23
: 4WD Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 13:38:15
: winsome Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 12:39:38
: Catholica Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 12:05:33
I doubt that winsome is going to ask it to be closed. He is still waiting for someone to actually respond to his OP!
There is always a chance that someone may address the points I raised rather than diverting off into side issues.
I responded in reply #3 to the first part of your OP. I stopped with that.
You didn't address a single point though, just stated an opinion and didn't address any of the scripture winsome provided.
The kind of reply that we are looking for is one that addresses winsome's points in his post.
I did address them. There is no mention of purgatory in any of them. And so far as I am concerned there is not even a suggestion of a purgatory in any of them. Now you can disagree with me about that and I can accept that.
That's not addressing them, sorry.
That is as useless a response as me saying about your post,
"There was not a complete sentence in your post. Not one. You can disagree with me about that and I can accept that."
Michael F. Ross is an ordained minister in the Presbyterian Church in America. He was reared as a Roman Catholic and studied in high school for the Roman Catholic priesthood, at the Divine Word Seminary, in Perrysburg, Ohio.
This article first appeared in the Practical Hermeneutics column of the Christian Research Journal, volume 33, number 03 (2010). For further information or to subscribe to the Christian Research Journal go to: http://www.equip.org (http://www.equip.org)
The doctrine of purgatory remains a troubling idea for many Roman Catholics. One bulletin from a local Catholic church included the following: "Why do we pray for souls in Purgatory? When we die in God's friendship, we know that we'll eventually go to heaven. However, if we haven't properly atoned for certain sins, we have to be purified in Purgatory first. The Catechism of the Catholic Church calls it, 'a final cleansing of human imperfections before one is able to enter the joy of heaven.' We pray for the souls in Purgatory, especially during the month of November, to help them pass through to heaven faster than they would on their own."1 Some Catholics question this doctrine, and more than a few challenge its legitimacy, based on their understanding of Scripture. At the Web site www.catholic.com (http://www.catholic.com), a site devoted to "Catholic answers, Catholic apologetics, and Catholic evangelism," Christine Pinheiro and Kenneth Howell defend the Catholic doctrine of purgatory.2 "All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven."3
Article continues and contains subject header discussions pertaining to:
Four False Ideas.
First Corinthians 3:13-14 and the Idea of Purgation.
Second Maccabees 12:39-46 and Prayers for the Dead.
First Peter 3:18-22 and the Idea of Post-Death Probation.
Matthew 12:32 and Salvation after Death.
The Laws of Hermeneutics Full Article Linked (http://www.equip.org/article/is-purgatory-a-biblical-concept/#christian-books-3)
This thread was first started in the Apologetics forum so that those who may wish to discuss what is promoted here as the sole doctrine for all Christians could be discussed in a forum not specifically related to a denominational church theology. Wherein it can appear Protestants and others are attempting to reform those denominational members for their ideas about Purgatory. This thread was intended to broaden the subject, purgatory, and review if it is supported by scripture itself. Rather than appearing to support or decry the Roman's Catholic church.
However, it was decided it is fitting to be posted here to continue the theme.
The family of Christ I know can pursue this study in keeping within the rules of the forum and the dignities afforded our Christian community in the body of Christ. ::groupprayer::
I look forward to your thoughts.
: Buster D Body Crab Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 14:18:30
Michael F. Ross is an ordained minister in the Presbyterian Church in America. He was reared as a Roman Catholic and studied in high school for the Roman Catholic priesthood, at the Divine Word Seminary, in Perrysburg, Ohio.
This article first appeared in the Practical Hermeneutics column of the Christian Research Journal, volume 33, number 03 (2010). For further information or to subscribe to the Christian Research Journal go to: http://www.equip.org (http://www.equip.org)
The doctrine of purgatory remains a troubling idea for many Roman Catholics. One bulletin from a local Catholic church included the following: "Why do we pray for souls in Purgatory? When we die in God's friendship, we know that we'll eventually go to heaven. However, if we haven't properly atoned for certain sins, we have to be purified in Purgatory first. The Catechism of the Catholic Church calls it, 'a final cleansing of human imperfections before one is able to enter the joy of heaven.' We pray for the souls in Purgatory, especially during the month of November, to help them pass through to heaven faster than they would on their own."1 Some Catholics question this doctrine, and more than a few challenge its legitimacy, based on their understanding of Scripture. At the Web site www.catholic.com (http://www.catholic.com), a site devoted to "Catholic answers, Catholic apologetics, and Catholic evangelism," Christine Pinheiro and Kenneth Howell defend the Catholic doctrine of purgatory.2 "All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven."3
Article continues and contains subject header discussions pertaining to:
Four False Ideas.
First Corinthians 3:13-14 and the Idea of Purgation.
Second Maccabees 12:39-46 and Prayers for the Dead.
First Peter 3:18-22 and the Idea of Post-Death Probation.
Matthew 12:32 and Salvation after Death.
The Laws of Hermeneutics
Full Article Linked (http://www.equip.org/article/is-purgatory-a-biblical-concept/#christian-books-3)
This thread was first started in the Apologetics forum so that those who may wish to discuss what is promoted here as the sole doctrine for all Christians could be discussed in a forum not specifically related to a denominational church theology. Wherein it can appear Protestants and others are attempting to reform those denominational members for their ideas about Purgatory. This thread was intended to broaden the subject, purgatory, and review if it is supported by scripture itself. Rather than appearing to support or decry the Roman's Catholic church.
However, it was decided it is fitting to be posted here to continue the theme.
The family of Christ I know can pursue this study in keeping within the rules of the forum and the dignities afforded our Christian community in the body of Christ. ::groupprayer::
I look forward to your thoughts.
Sure, you can have our thoughts, right after you address winsome's original 3 posts.
: Catholica Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 14:23:29
: Buster D Body Crab Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 14:18:30
Michael F. Ross is an ordained minister in the Presbyterian Church in America. He was reared as a Roman Catholic and studied in high school for the Roman Catholic priesthood, at the Divine Word Seminary, in Perrysburg, Ohio.
This article first appeared in the Practical Hermeneutics column of the Christian Research Journal, volume 33, number 03 (2010). For further information or to subscribe to the Christian Research Journal go to: http://www.equip.org (http://www.equip.org)
The doctrine of purgatory remains a troubling idea for many Roman Catholics. One bulletin from a local Catholic church included the following: "Why do we pray for souls in Purgatory? When we die in God's friendship, we know that we'll eventually go to heaven. However, if we haven't properly atoned for certain sins, we have to be purified in Purgatory first. The Catechism of the Catholic Church calls it, 'a final cleansing of human imperfections before one is able to enter the joy of heaven.' We pray for the souls in Purgatory, especially during the month of November, to help them pass through to heaven faster than they would on their own."1 Some Catholics question this doctrine, and more than a few challenge its legitimacy, based on their understanding of Scripture. At the Web site www.catholic.com (http://www.catholic.com), a site devoted to "Catholic answers, Catholic apologetics, and Catholic evangelism," Christine Pinheiro and Kenneth Howell defend the Catholic doctrine of purgatory.2 "All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven."3
Article continues and contains subject header discussions pertaining to:
Four False Ideas.
First Corinthians 3:13-14 and the Idea of Purgation.
Second Maccabees 12:39-46 and Prayers for the Dead.
First Peter 3:18-22 and the Idea of Post-Death Probation.
Matthew 12:32 and Salvation after Death.
The Laws of Hermeneutics
Full Article Linked (http://www.equip.org/article/is-purgatory-a-biblical-concept/#christian-books-3)
This thread was first started in the Apologetics forum so that those who may wish to discuss what is promoted here as the sole doctrine for all Christians could be discussed in a forum not specifically related to a denominational church theology. Wherein it can appear Protestants and others are attempting to reform those denominational members for their ideas about Purgatory. This thread was intended to broaden the subject, purgatory, and review if it is supported by scripture itself. Rather than appearing to support or decry the Roman's Catholic church.
However, it was decided it is fitting to be posted here to continue the theme.
The family of Christ I know can pursue this study in keeping within the rules of the forum and the dignities afforded our Christian community in the body of Christ. ::groupprayer::
I look forward to your thoughts.
Sure, you can have our thoughts, right after you address winsome's original 3 posts.
It's a curious thing that you speak in terms of "we" when you invoke winsome. As if you're speaking for him.
And I realize you wish to ignore it but the fact remains. People have addressed the OP repeatedly. That you both do not appreciate the responses you've received and from a Biblical standpoint is not anyone's fault.
Posting in the forum dedicated to Catholicism the edicts as relates to the churches dictates in matters of Purgatory and asking Protestants to refute it is just what has been done from a Protestant perspective.
It is interesting though that you and winsome would post such things in a forum dedicated to what the RCC teaches about such topics as this.
In truth I've wondered myself why I would enter into this forum to debate what a Roman Catholic believes. You're preaching here to fellow Catholics. Protestants don't accept Purgatory exists so why would I want to talk you out of what you accept is awaiting you and all Roman Catholics when you die?
Yet, page after page you and winsome ignore the posts that contend Purgatory is not an absolute that must be accepted as holy writ by Protestants and you then attempt to argue that that is not an answer to the OP.
Yes, it is. What it appears you wish to do is throttle non-Roman Catholics religious perspective. And this do to your admission and perhaps this is your method of somehow accomplishing some sort of mission to that end. That you believe the whole world must be Roman Catholic in order to be saved and do God's will.
If you think you're going to brow beat Christians because they do not succumb to your insistence that the holy see is God's repository and RCC is the only true path to God you're on the wrong path.
No matter what your church tells you to believe at the peril of your soul and the threat of excommunication should you fall out of lock step, Purgatory is not something Jesus Christ taught us about. Purgatory, as defined by the RCC, renounces the full price Jesus paid on the cross for the sins of those who hold faith in his sacrifice.
Scripture aplenty proves that. And it doesn't have to be to your liking to be absolutely true.
Jesus wasn't a Roman Catholic.
And based on what I said about asking myself why any Protestant would enter into a Catholics forum and debate what they believe, I think I'll bow out and let the Catholics argue. Protestants don't believe in Purgatory, Mariology, Priest emissaries, closet confessionals, etc...
What are we really doing here hoping to prove we're right about that to people who do not agree?
: Buster D Body Crab Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 14:47:23
: Catholica Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 14:23:29
: Buster D Body Crab Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 14:18:30
Michael F. Ross is an ordained minister in the Presbyterian Church in America. He was reared as a Roman Catholic and studied in high school for the Roman Catholic priesthood, at the Divine Word Seminary, in Perrysburg, Ohio.
This article first appeared in the Practical Hermeneutics column of the Christian Research Journal, volume 33, number 03 (2010). For further information or to subscribe to the Christian Research Journal go to: http://www.equip.org (http://www.equip.org)
The doctrine of purgatory remains a troubling idea for many Roman Catholics. One bulletin from a local Catholic church included the following: "Why do we pray for souls in Purgatory? When we die in God's friendship, we know that we'll eventually go to heaven. However, if we haven't properly atoned for certain sins, we have to be purified in Purgatory first. The Catechism of the Catholic Church calls it, 'a final cleansing of human imperfections before one is able to enter the joy of heaven.' We pray for the souls in Purgatory, especially during the month of November, to help them pass through to heaven faster than they would on their own."1 Some Catholics question this doctrine, and more than a few challenge its legitimacy, based on their understanding of Scripture. At the Web site www.catholic.com (http://www.catholic.com), a site devoted to "Catholic answers, Catholic apologetics, and Catholic evangelism," Christine Pinheiro and Kenneth Howell defend the Catholic doctrine of purgatory.2 "All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven."3
Article continues and contains subject header discussions pertaining to:
Four False Ideas.
First Corinthians 3:13-14 and the Idea of Purgation.
Second Maccabees 12:39-46 and Prayers for the Dead.
First Peter 3:18-22 and the Idea of Post-Death Probation.
Matthew 12:32 and Salvation after Death.
The Laws of Hermeneutics
Full Article Linked (http://www.equip.org/article/is-purgatory-a-biblical-concept/#christian-books-3)
This thread was first started in the Apologetics forum so that those who may wish to discuss what is promoted here as the sole doctrine for all Christians could be discussed in a forum not specifically related to a denominational church theology. Wherein it can appear Protestants and others are attempting to reform those denominational members for their ideas about Purgatory. This thread was intended to broaden the subject, purgatory, and review if it is supported by scripture itself. Rather than appearing to support or decry the Roman's Catholic church.
However, it was decided it is fitting to be posted here to continue the theme.
The family of Christ I know can pursue this study in keeping within the rules of the forum and the dignities afforded our Christian community in the body of Christ. ::groupprayer::
I look forward to your thoughts.
Sure, you can have our thoughts, right after you address winsome's original 3 posts.
It's a curious thing that you speak in terms of "we" when you invoke winsome. As if you're speaking for him.
And I realize you wish to ignore it but the fact remains. People have addressed the OP repeatedly. That you both do not appreciate the responses you've received and from a Biblical standpoint is not anyone's fault.
Posting in the forum dedicated to Catholicism the edicts as relates to the churches dictates in matters of Purgatory and asking Protestants to refute it is just what has been done from a Protestant perspective.
It is interesting though that you and winsome would post such things in a forum dedicated to what the RCC teaches about such topics as this.
In truth I've wondered myself why I would enter into this forum to debate what a Roman Catholic believes. You're preaching here to fellow Catholics. Protestants don't accept Purgatory exists so why would I want to talk you out of what you accept is awaiting you and all Roman Catholics when you die?
Yet, page after page you and winsome ignore the posts that contend Purgatory is not an absolute that must be accepted as holy writ by Protestants and you then attempt to argue that that is not an answer to the OP.
Yes, it is. What it appears you wish to do is throttle non-Roman Catholics religious perspective. And this do to your admission and perhaps this is your method of somehow accomplishing some sort of mission to that end. That you believe the whole world must be Roman Catholic in order to be saved and do God's will.
If you think you're going to brow beat Christians because they do not succumb to your insistence that the holy see is God's repository and RCC is the only true path to God you're on the wrong path.
No matter what your church tells you to believe at the peril of your soul and the threat of excommunication should you fall out of lock step, Purgatory is not something Jesus Christ taught us about. Purgatory, as defined by the RCC, renounces the full price Jesus paid on the cross for the sins of those who hold faith in his sacrifice.
Scripture aplenty proves that. And it doesn't have to be to your liking to be absolutely true.
Jesus wasn't a Roman Catholic.
And based on what I said about asking myself why any Protestant would enter into a Catholics forum and debate what they believe, I think I'll bow out and let the Catholics argue. Protestants don't believe in Purgatory, Mariology, Priest emissaries, closet confessionals, etc...
What are we really doing here hoping to prove we're right about that to people who do not agree?
You could just say that you don't know scripture well enough to refute the original post. After all, you just were gifted an Amplified Bible this year and want to learn about the Christian religions. No one is going to hold it against you if you just say that you haven't read or studied scripture well enough to respond. We'll just wait for someone who has.
WOW... what world do you live in Catholica? You insist on setting up scenarios that include this type of thing. There is an OP, there are plenty of answers... yes truthful refute to the subject. But, you just denounce and denounce because you refuse to accept that someone has given clear response.
It's not that anyone "Hasn't" answered the challenge, it's that you refuse to see it. It's not that anyone has no answers for you, you refuse to read them. It's not that you have not been given truth, it's that you reject it. Sadly. Day in and day out... time and time again.
And WHY are you allowed to continually insult other posters, implying they are uneducated, unworthy, ignorant or liars?? Why is this being allowed day in and day out?
Why are you being allowed to imply that those of us who are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ are not saved because we are not Catholic? Why does this continue? Endless jabbing at our salvation. You do it daily.
: kensington Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 15:18:55
WOW... what world do you live in Catholica? You insist on setting up scenarios that include this type of thing. There is an OP, there are plenty of answers... yes truthful refute to the subject. But, you just denounce and denounce because you refuse to accept that someone has given clear response.
It's not that anyone "Hasn't" answered the challenge, it's that you refuse to see it. It's not that anyone has no answers for you, you refuse to read them. It's not that you have not been given truth, it's that you reject it. Sadly. Day in and day out... time and time again.
And WHY are you allowed to continually insult other posters, implying they are uneducated, unworthy, ignorant or liars?? Why is this being allowed day in and day out?
Why are you being allowed to imply that those of us who are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ are not saved because we are not Catholic? Why does this continue? Endless jabbing at our salvation. You do it daily.
Really? What world do
you live in?
I can't see that anyone has actually tackled the points I made and the scriptures I used to make them.
If they are wrong why not show me?
PS... There is NO Purgatory in scripture... it's based on an Eschatological idea, derived by men who read the scriptures and decided they needed such a thing. It has no factual backup in scripture. NONE. It says so clearly in the Catholic Encyclopedia under "Purgatory"... Published by Nelson, Revised and updated version.
So, we must then be clear that there is no Purgatory for Protestants, as for us... "To be absent from the body is to be present with the LORD" is and always will be good enough for us by faith alone. As we are saved by grace.
But, for Catholics who rely on works to gain grace and and this is another work they must pass through before Heaven.
I don't mind if they want to be purged after death. I personally am looking forward to going right to be with my Lord forever. I don't know how long it will take them to get there or is some of them ever will. I guess it's safe to say, since they rely on this "Purging" for sins that are not covered by the blood and the grace of God, it could be a long time, or never. Depending on who it is.
I prefer to believe in God's truth, rather than men's fairy tales for my eternity. And since there are just TOO MANY scriptures to list that confirm that the saved will go from life to being with God in eternity... I won't post them. And since there is NO factual proof in scripture there is a purgatory, we can't post them.
It's safe for me to assume, "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" Is good enough. ::tippinghat:: ::tippinghat::
: kensington Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 15:18:55
WOW... what world do you live in Catholica? You insist on setting up scenarios that include this type of thing. There is an OP, there are plenty of answers... yes truthful refute to the subject. But, you just denounce and denounce because you refuse to accept that someone has given clear response.
Can you repost what you consider a "clear response" that addresses winsome's points? Maybe I missed it? Something more than a statement of opinion, for example, a quote of what winsome posted and a point he made and a demonstration of how that isn't true?
It's not that anyone "Hasn't" answered the challenge, it's that you refuse to see it. It's not that anyone has no answers for you, you refuse to read them. It's not that you have not been given truth, it's that you reject it. Sadly. Day in and day out... time and time again.
I don't reject the truth. And I read the posts, I've read them over and over again. 90% of them are opinions that don't reference any scripture, except for the ones from me and winsome. There are a few that do, and those we answer and demonstrate how they don't preclude purgatory. But there are none that actually address the points winsome made, unless I am missing something. And that's why I request that you post them here.
And WHY are you allowed to continually insult other posters, implying they are uneducated, unworthy, ignorant or liars?? Why is this being allowed day in and day out?
I rarely call someone ignorant, but if someone is ignorant, then they should be told it. Can you find a place where I called someone ignorant?
Being ignorant is not a shameful thing. If someone thinks that someone else believes or practices something they don't, then that person is ignorant. No shame in that. The Christian should seek to become educated.
As for implying that someone is uneducated, I've implied that about Buster only because of things he has said about himself. Why is there anything wrong with reminding him?
As for unworthy, I don't know what you are talking about, if people feel that I am saying they are unworthy because of the answers I give to questions they ask me about Christian teaching, then that is not really on me. I wouldn't tell someone that they are unworthy directly because I don't know the state of their soul; I only expound Catholic teaching.
As for calling him a liar, I apologize. I have been warned. I don't do that day in and day out. I will just take what he said about himself at face value.
Why are you being allowed to imply that those of us who are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ are not saved because we are not Catholic? Why does this continue? Endless jabbing at our salvation. You do it daily.
I don't. Someone asked me what the Catholic Church teaches, and I responded. I don't use it as a weapon. And the spirit of the rule around here is to not belittle people saying they are unsaved. If I answer a question about what the Catholic Church teaches, that's not what I am doing.
Tell me, do you think a person should be banned if someone asks them what they believe about their salvation, and they give an answer according to what they believe based on general principles?
The question is then more heinous than the response might be if the response did not affirm their salvation; it would be an attempt to get someone banned. That is a tactic called "brinking" and is against the rules in this forum.
: Buster D Body Crab Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 14:18:30
This thread was first started in the Apologetics forum so that those who may wish to discuss what is promoted here as the sole doctrine for all Christians could be discussed in a forum not specifically related to a denominational church theology. Wherein it can appear Protestants and others are attempting to reform those denominational members for their ideas about Purgatory. This thread was intended to broaden the subject, purgatory, and review if it is supported by scripture itself. Rather than appearing to support or decry the Roman's Catholic church.
However, it was decided it is fitting to be posted here to continue the theme.
Actually it started as a off-topic comment in the
Theology Forum to which doorknocker objected so I said I would start a thread here.
As this is a particularly Catholic topic it seemed more appropriate to discuss it in the Catholic Forum. All Christians may post here.
If I wanted to chat to Catholics only it would have gone in the Catholic Safe House.
Catholica... I don't think you should be banned. I think you should stop being so rude and arrogant to others.
You said the will of God is for all men to be Catholic. Give me ONE scripture that says that. And I don't mean we should all be part of God's church... the body of Christ, the Bride of the Lamb.
I mean give me one scripture that God wills us to be Catholic, the religion you expound. The mass, the saints, the statues, the Mary adoration, all the rites and rituals that you practice. Where is ONE scripture that says we are called to join that religion. We are all called by the will of God to be SAVED, not Catholic.
You also said that if men do not join the CC, the means by which God created for us to be saved, we would not be. Show me ONE verse that says that we are saved by "THE" Church... any church. Or religion. We are saved by the Blood of Jesus Christ and it's insulting for you to suggest anything else. Arrogant and insulting.
: kensington Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 15:33:14
PS... There is NO Purgatory in scripture... it's based on an Eschatological idea, derived by men who read the scriptures and decided they needed such a thing. It has no factual backup in scripture. NONE. It says so clearly in the Catholic Encyclopedia under "Purgatory"... Published by Nelson, Revised and updated version.
Do you mind posting the whole entry, word for word? It's kind of an obscure book at this point. Otherwise I can try to obtain a copy off Amazon.
: kensington Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 15:33:14
So, we must then be clear that there is no Purgatory for Protestants, as for us... "To be absent from the body is to be present with the LORD" is and always will be good enough for us by faith alone. As we are saved by grace.
We understand your opinion and how it would preclude purgatory, but we think it is an opinion based on false theology, and we have reasons to be believe that we are right, based on scripture, which has been presented.
But, for Catholics who rely on works to gain grace and and this is another work they must pass through before Heaven.
Not gain grace, but rather accept grace that is being offered and thereby increase grace. However once you die, grace no longer can be merited, and purgatory is not about meriting grace, but cleansing the soul on it's way to heaven, where nothing impure may exist (Rev. 21:27).
I don't mind if they want to be purged after death. I personally am looking forward to going right to be with my Lord forever. I don't know how long it will take them to get there or is some of them ever will. I guess it's safe to say, since they rely on this "Purging" for sins that are not covered by the blood and the grace of God, it may it could be a long time, or never.
You speak as if what someone believes, whether it be true or false, affects their experience in the afterlife. Either purgatory is real, or it is not, which is what we are talking about here (in theory, having discourse like reasonable persons). If purgatory is real, and scripture seems to indicate that it is, then a person is better off to believe it so, because most people will realize when they get there that they should have spent a lot more time allowing God to sanctify them beforehand.
I prefer to believe in God's truth, rather than men's fairy tales for my eternity. And since there are just TOO MANY scriptures to list that confirm that the saved will go from life to being with God in eternity... I won't post them. And since there is NO factual proof in scripture there is a purgatory.
You don't have to post all of them if you don't want, just a few. And then we can demonstrate to you how they align perfectly with purgatory. You don't want us to do that, do you?
It's safe for me to assume, "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" Is good enough. ::tippinghat:: ::tippinghat::
Except scripture doesn't say that.
: winsome Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 15:40:01
: Buster D Body Crab Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 14:18:30
This thread was first started in the Apologetics forum so that those who may wish to discuss what is promoted here as the sole doctrine for all Christians could be discussed in a forum not specifically related to a denominational church theology. Wherein it can appear Protestants and others are attempting to reform those denominational members for their ideas about Purgatory. This thread was intended to broaden the subject, purgatory, and review if it is supported by scripture itself. Rather than appearing to support or decry the Roman's Catholic church.
However, it was decided it is fitting to be posted here to continue the theme.
Actually it started as a off-topic comment in the Theology Forum to which doorknocker objected so I said I would start a thread here.
As this is a particularly Catholic topic it seemed more appropriate to discuss it in the Catholic Forum. All Christians may post here.
If I wanted to chat to Catholics only it would have gone in the Catholic Safe House.
Buster was referring to his post with the link to his article, not this thread. I think the moderators were having a discussion over where it should go. It moved back and forth earlier today.
Now for clarification, is purgatory neither heaven nor hell?
Is it an in between place?
: kensington Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 15:44:06
Catholica... I don't think you should be banned. I think you should stop being so rude and arrogant to others.
If answering people's posts directly and forthrightly is arrogant then call me arrogant. I've been called worse.
: kensington Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 15:44:06You said the will of God is for all men to be Catholic. Give me ONE scripture that says that. And I don't mean we should all be part of God's church... the body of Christ, the Bride of the Lamb.
There is no difference between being a member of God's church and being Catholic. As I have said before, everyone who is baptized is considered "Catholic" by the church even if they don't call themselves Catholic. It is by baptism that we enter into the body of Christ. It's just that the Catholic Church is the body that has the Truth, and it is the one that Jesus established, one that is a sacramental, teaching Church with centralized authority, established in Israel in the first century. Matthew 28:19-20. Which is exactly how the early Church was, and only similar to the Catholic Church today. There is no other Church which has the four marks, whose practice and theology reflect both the Bible and the early Church Fathers.
: kensington Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 15:44:06
I mean give me one scripture that God wills us to be Catholic, the religion you expound. The mass, the saints, the statues, the Mary adoration, all the rites and rituals that you practice. Where is ONE scripture that says we are called to join that religion. We are all called by the will of God to be SAVED, not Catholic.
God will us to "be one, as He and the Father are one". He established one Church and granted it the authority to bind and loose. Of it's representatives, he says "whoever listens to you, listens to me, and whoever rejects you rejects me, and whoever rejects me, rejects the one who sent me".
This is SO very different from all Protestant denominations today.
We don't adore Mary. Adoration is reserved for God alone. We give her her due honor based on her true place and role in the economy of salvation, which is far lower than the infinite God but higher than all other men and angels.
Statues are superfluous but there is nothing wrong with having them now that God has revealed his face to us (they can't be confused with having divine power, which is what statue idolatry was).
"Test all things, keep what is good" is a good verse for you. It means that what exactly you read in scripture doesn't have to be the complete practice of every member of the church forever and ever.
The mass was practiced at the last supper and on the road to Emmaus and alluded to in Acts 2:42 and reflected in the writings of the Church Fathers.
The saints are spoken of in Hebrews 12:1 and their intercessory action is shown in Rev. 5:8. The communion of saints is outlined well in many places in scripture. We are one with Christ in one body, whoever persecutes us persecutes Christ, and nothing, not even death, can separate us. Do you require verses for all of those things?
: kensington Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 15:44:06
You also said that if men do not join the CC, the means by which God created for us to be saved, we would not be. Show me ONE verse that says that we are saved by "THE" Church... any church. Or religion. We are saved by the Blood of Jesus Christ and it's insulting for you to suggest anything else. Arrogant and insulting.
There is no conflict. The sacraments are HOW the blood of Christ is applied to our souls, in particular, the sacraments of baptism (which saves you now, 1 Peter 3:21), the Eucharist (without which, men don't have life in them, John 6:53), and confession (in which their post-baptismal sins are forgiven, 1 John 1:9)
I never said that men could not be saved if they joined the CC, however they don't have access to two of those three essential sacraments unless they do (baptism being the exception, if it is done with water in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, with the intent to baptize).
This forum is full of arrogant and insulting people. You pick on me because why?
: Brother Johan Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 15:52:52
Now for clarification, is purgatory neither heaven nor hell?
Is it an in between place?
Purgatory is a place (or state, the church doesn't define it, though I believe it to be a place) for souls who, at the point of their death, died in the grace of God but were not perfectly sanctified during their life. Everyone who is purged in purgatory is done so so that one day they go to heaven. At the point of death they are judged as saved, so they will all become members of heaven one day.
: Catholica Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 16:21:45
: Brother Johan Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 15:52:52
Now for clarification, is purgatory neither heaven nor hell?
Is it an in between place?
Purgatory is a place (or state, the church doesn't define it, though I believe it to be a place) for souls who, at the point of their death, died in the grace of God but were not perfectly sanctified during their life. Everyone who is purged in purgatory is done so so that one day they go to heaven. At the point of death they are judged as saved, so they will all become members of heaven one day.
What do they have to do in purgatory to get purged?
'As I have said before, everyone who is baptized is considered "Catholic" by the church even if they don't call themselves Catholic. "
This is an arrogant stance and comment. NO church has the right to tell others what they are. The CC does not have that authority. There is no proof that they do.
Let me ask you... Is it OK for me to say that a Catholic is not a Christian, unless they leave the church?
: Catholica Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 16:21:45
: Brother Johan Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 15:52:52
Now for clarification, is purgatory neither heaven nor hell?
Is it an in between place?
Purgatory is a place (or state, the church doesn't define it, though I believe it to be a place) for souls who, at the point of their death, died in the grace of God but were not perfectly sanctified during their life. Everyone who is purged in purgatory is done so so that one day they go to heaven. At the point of death they are judged as saved, so they will all become members of heaven one day.
How do you explain Ephesians 2, 6
and raised up with Him, and made us sit in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Does this mean, we have to leave the heavenly places where Christ is and then go to purgatory When we die?
: 4WD Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 16:25:03
: Catholica Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 16:21:45
: Brother Johan Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 15:52:52
Now for clarification, is purgatory neither heaven nor hell?
Is it an in between place?
Purgatory is a place (or state, the church doesn't define it, though I believe it to be a place) for souls who, at the point of their death, died in the grace of God but were not perfectly sanctified during their life. Everyone who is purged in purgatory is done so so that one day they go to heaven. At the point of death they are judged as saved, so they will all become members of heaven one day.
What do they have to do in purgatory to get purged?
They passively suffer the fires of purgatory. They don't have to do anything; and they cannot do anything. That is why they are often called "the poor souls in purgatory". Poor because they can do nothing but wait.
That being said, they are filled with joy and hope while they do it because they realize that they are being ever drawn closer and closer to heaven as they are purified, and with their suffering there is a sense of joy and love for God, despite the spiritual pains they endure there. They are like gold being refined in a crucible. But "gold" that is more and more filled with a more perfect and pure love for God.
: Catholica Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 16:31:25
: 4WD Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 16:25:03
: Catholica Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 16:21:45
: Brother Johan Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 15:52:52
Now for clarification, is purgatory neither heaven nor hell?
Is it an in between place?
Purgatory is a place (or state, the church doesn't define it, though I believe it to be a place) for souls who, at the point of their death, died in the grace of God but were not perfectly sanctified during their life. Everyone who is purged in purgatory is done so so that one day they go to heaven. At the point of death they are judged as saved, so they will all become members of heaven one day.
What do they have to do in purgatory to get purged?
They passively suffer the fires of purgatory. They don't have to do anything; and they cannot do anything. That is why they are often called "the poor souls in purgatory". Poor because they can do nothing but wait.
That being said, they are filled with joy and hope while they do it because they realize that they are being ever drawn closer and closer to heaven as they are purified, and with their suffering there is a sense of joy and love for God, despite the spiritual pains they endure there. They are like gold being refined in a crucible. But "gold" that is more and more filled with a more perfect and pure love for God.
Do you believe in a loving God?
Do you believe that God sent Jesus Christ to die for you?
: Catholica Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 14:18:15
: 4WD Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 14:12:14
: Catholica Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 13:50:23
: 4WD Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 13:38:15
: winsome Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 12:39:38
: Catholica Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 12:05:33
I doubt that winsome is going to ask it to be closed. He is still waiting for someone to actually respond to his OP!
There is always a chance that someone may address the points I raised rather than diverting off into side issues.
I responded in reply #3 to the first part of your OP. I stopped with that.
You didn't address a single point though, just stated an opinion and didn't address any of the scripture winsome provided.
The kind of reply that we are looking for is one that addresses winsome's points in his post.
I did address them. There is no mention of purgatory in any of them. And so far as I am concerned there is not even a suggestion of a purgatory in any of them. Now you can disagree with me about that and I can accept that.
That's not addressing them, sorry.
That is as useless a response as me saying about your post,
"There was not a complete sentence in your post. Not one. You can disagree with me about that and I can accept that."
Okay, let me try this:
: winsome Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 08:57:22
Catholic belief:
All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. (CCC 1030)
The basic argument for Purgatory is as follows:
1. God is holy and perfect, and He tells us to be holy and perfect as he is holy and perfect.
"...but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy." (1Pet 1:15-16)
"You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."(Mt 5:48)
No argument there. It is Scripture.
2. Unless we are clean (holy and perfect) we will not enter heaven for a life of communion with God.
"But nothing unclean will enter it" [The new Jerusalem – Heaven] (Rev 21:27)
True again.
3. Unless we are holy we will not see God.
"Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord" (Heb 12;14)
Can't argue with a thing there.
4. When we are initially justified (I believe by baptism) God makes us holy and perfect.
"When the goodness and loving kindness of God our Saviour appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Saviour, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life." (Ti 3:4-7)
Yes, I agree with that.
5. But during our life we sin which disfigures and soils our souls and from which we need cleansing to restore us the holiness and perfection necessary to enter heaven. This is an ongoing process of sin, repentance, and cleansing.
"Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God." (2Cor 7:1)
I could argue with some of that. It has to do with what winsome apparently doesn't understand the full implications of what it means to be "in Christ". Perhaps a study of that biblical concept is in order. But I will let that slide for the moment.
6. If we are not wholly clean, holy and perfect there must be some process whereby we can be cleansed and made holy and perfect. Scripture tells us there is:
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb 12:22-23)
This shows that there is a way, a process, whereby the spirits of just men are made perfect
.
That is called being saved. It is described variously in several places in the NT. One of my favorites is
Tit 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
Tit 3:6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Tit 3:7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. All of the above deals with our life now on this earth. There is nothing in any of those passages dealing with any activity following physical death.
: kensington Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 16:29:57
'As I have said before, everyone who is baptized is considered "Catholic" by the church even if they don't call themselves Catholic. "
This is an arrogant stance and comment. NO church has the right to tell others what they are. The CC does not have that authority. There is no proof that they do.
All I am telling you is what the Catholic Church teaches. And in fact the Catholic Church DOES have that authority, the "proof" is in apostolic succession.
To insist on "proof" to try to undermine what someone must believe based on faith is dangerous. There is also no "proof" that Jesus was a real person. His body is gone; there were lots of people named Jesus back then, etc. All we have is an unbroken line of witnesses and their writings.
: kensington Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 16:29:57
Let me ask you... Is it OK for me to say that a Catholic is not a Christian, unless they leave the church?
Not on this forum. But if that is what you believe, and if someone asked you if that is what you believed and you answered them, I can't see how that would violate the forum rules. But I wouldn't ask you that, because it is an unfair question, because it's probably true, and that would be "brinking".
You could say it in real life all you want. People would probably think you are a jerk though.
I wouldn't say that about baptized persons who are not Catholic. If they are baptized, I call them Christian, and I believe that their path to heaven relies on the same things that people who call themselves Catholic need, things that I believe Jesus Christ gave us for the salvation of all men who would be saved.
Bravo, 4WD, with all sincerity. I haven't read through your whole post yet, but now we can finally have a discussion. Kudos and manna to you.
: Buster D Body Crab Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 16:36:29
: Catholica Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 16:31:25
: 4WD Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 16:25:03
: Catholica Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 16:21:45
: Brother Johan Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 15:52:52
Now for clarification, is purgatory neither heaven nor hell?
Is it an in between place?
Purgatory is a place (or state, the church doesn't define it, though I believe it to be a place) for souls who, at the point of their death, died in the grace of God but were not perfectly sanctified during their life. Everyone who is purged in purgatory is done so so that one day they go to heaven. At the point of death they are judged as saved, so they will all become members of heaven one day.
What do they have to do in purgatory to get purged?
They passively suffer the fires of purgatory. They don't have to do anything; and they cannot do anything. That is why they are often called "the poor souls in purgatory". Poor because they can do nothing but wait.
That being said, they are filled with joy and hope while they do it because they realize that they are being ever drawn closer and closer to heaven as they are purified, and with their suffering there is a sense of joy and love for God, despite the spiritual pains they endure there. They are like gold being refined in a crucible. But "gold" that is more and more filled with a more perfect and pure love for God.
Do you believe in a loving God?
Do you believe that God sent Jesus Christ to die for you?
Yes, to both, with all my heart.
I believe that God loves us so much that he wants us to be brought to heaven, and to be completely free from the stain of sin, and will do anything to save us, to make us that way, even if it means chastising us for a little while, like any good father would do. Hebrews 12:6
God sent Jesus Christ not only to die for me, but to reveal the truth about God to me, to purify me, to make me whole again, and to raise me up from the cesspool of sin and slavery, and to craft me into the person I was meant to be, free from all attachment to sin, free from the stain of sin, free to know God so that I love him as I aught, free to love my neighbor as I ought. God is so merciful and just, and purgatory is a pure mercy for people who tend in their imperfect fallen nature to fall again and again, who rarely become the person that God sees they could be.
God loves me so much, and purgatory is one expression of that love.
: kensington Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 16:29:57
'As I have said before, everyone who is baptized is considered "Catholic" by the church even if they don't call themselves Catholic. "
This is an arrogant stance and comment. NO church has the right to tell others what they are. The CC does not have that authority. There is no proof that they do.
It is the tradition created by the men of the RCC through the Catechism of the Roman Catholic church that says this. Note in this excerpt:"though imperfect" communion with the Roman Catholic church. Unless one is Roman Catholic, while all baptism, per the RCC, constitutes a communion with the church, those who are not baptised by the church are imperfect in communion with the RCC.
1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."81 "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn." (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a1.htm)
While Baptism itself for those not affiliated with the Roman Catholic church who receive immersion Baptism are in fellowship with God, Christ, and one another as the body of Christ. His universal church.
Bible Dictionary:
Communion [N]
(http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/communion/)
fellowship with God ( Genesis 18:17-33 ; Exodus 33:9-11 ; Numbers 12:7 Numbers 12:8 ), between Christ and his people ( John 14:23 ), by the Spirit ( 2 Corinthians 13:14 ; Phil 2:1 ), of believers with one another ( Ephesians 4:1-6 ). The Lord's Supper is so called ( 1 Corinthians 10:16 1 Corinthians 10:17 ), because in it there is fellowship between Christ and his disciples, and of the disciples with one another.
What we often see within some churches within Christendom, and presented here at the forum, the concept called Once-Saved-Always-Saved. I don't believe that concept and I don't want to discuss it here. However that is at one end of the spectrum of the thinking with respect to salvation. It would appear that in the Catholic church we find the other end of that spectrum. I will call it the concept of Never-Saved-Always-Hoping. I don't believe that concept either. Neither seem to understand salvation as it is presented in the Bible, particularly the NT.
: Catholica Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 16:48:36
: Buster D Body Crab Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 16:36:29
: Catholica Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 16:31:25
: 4WD Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 16:25:03
: Catholica Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 16:21:45
: Brother Johan Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 15:52:52
Now for clarification, is purgatory neither heaven nor hell?
Is it an in between place?
Purgatory is a place (or state, the church doesn't define it, though I believe it to be a place) for souls who, at the point of their death, died in the grace of God but were not perfectly sanctified during their life. Everyone who is purged in purgatory is done so so that one day they go to heaven. At the point of death they are judged as saved, so they will all become members of heaven one day.
What do they have to do in purgatory to get purged?
They passively suffer the fires of purgatory. They don't have to do anything; and they cannot do anything. That is why they are often called "the poor souls in purgatory". Poor because they can do nothing but wait.
That being said, they are filled with joy and hope while they do it because they realize that they are being ever drawn closer and closer to heaven as they are purified, and with their suffering there is a sense of joy and love for God, despite the spiritual pains they endure there. They are like gold being refined in a crucible. But "gold" that is more and more filled with a more perfect and pure love for God.
Do you believe in a loving God?
Do you believe that God sent Jesus Christ to die for you?
Yes, to both, with all my heart.
I believe that God loves us so much that he wants us to be brought to heaven, and to be completely free from the stain of sin, and will do anything to save us, to make us that way, even if it means chastising us for a little while, like any good father would do. Hebrews 12:6
God sent Jesus Christ not only to die for me, but to reveal the truth about God to me, to purify me, to make me whole again, and to raise me up from the cesspool of sin and slavery, and to craft me into the person I was meant to be, free from all attachment to sin, free from the stain of sin, free to know God so that I love him as I aught, free to love my neighbor as I ought. God is so merciful and just, and purgatory is a pure mercy for people who tend in their imperfect fallen nature to fall again and again, who rarely become the person that God sees they could be.
God loves me so much, and purgatory is one expression of that love.
What are Indulgences?
: Brother Johan Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 16:30:39
: Catholica Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 16:21:45
: Brother Johan Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 15:52:52
Now for clarification, is purgatory neither heaven nor hell?
Is it an in between place?
Purgatory is a place (or state, the church doesn't define it, though I believe it to be a place) for souls who, at the point of their death, died in the grace of God but were not perfectly sanctified during their life. Everyone who is purged in purgatory is done so so that one day they go to heaven. At the point of death they are judged as saved, so they will all become members of heaven one day.
How do you explain Ephesians 2, 6
and raised up with Him, and made us sit in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Does this mean, we have to leave the heavenly places where Christ is and then go to purgatory When we die?
Ephesians 2
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
Paul is expounding on a spiritual reality of our soul, that insofar that we are "in Christ" that is, "in a state of grace" or "saved by grace" we have a "spiritually organic connection to Christ himself" who is
literally seated on that throne. Let's examine the whole passage:
1. "Made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions-- it is by grace you have been saved". We were not physically dead, were we? Spiritually dead, yes. So in a spiritual sense, alive in spirit, alive in the grace of God, alive "in Christ Jesus" once we have received God's grace.
2. "And God raised us up with Christ". Not literally; Christ was raised 2000 years ago. How so raised up? Raised up insofar that we have been made part of the body of Christ.
3. "and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus". We became part of Christ's body when we were baptized. In Christ Jesus, we are "seated" in the heavenly realms, insomuch that we are part of his body. But not literally seated there, but in a sense spiritually seated there. There is no reason that this same "spiritually seated on the throne" would be any different in purgatory. In the same sense, all in purgatory are "in Christ Jesus" because they are all "saved".
Make sense?
: Buster D Body Crab Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 16:53:28
: Catholica Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 16:48:36
: Buster D Body Crab Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 16:36:29
: Catholica Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 16:31:25
: 4WD Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 16:25:03
: Catholica Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 16:21:45
: Brother Johan Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 15:52:52
Now for clarification, is purgatory neither heaven nor hell?
Is it an in between place?
Purgatory is a place (or state, the church doesn't define it, though I believe it to be a place) for souls who, at the point of their death, died in the grace of God but were not perfectly sanctified during their life. Everyone who is purged in purgatory is done so so that one day they go to heaven. At the point of death they are judged as saved, so they will all become members of heaven one day.
What do they have to do in purgatory to get purged?
They passively suffer the fires of purgatory. They don't have to do anything; and they cannot do anything. That is why they are often called "the poor souls in purgatory". Poor because they can do nothing but wait.
That being said, they are filled with joy and hope while they do it because they realize that they are being ever drawn closer and closer to heaven as they are purified, and with their suffering there is a sense of joy and love for God, despite the spiritual pains they endure there. They are like gold being refined in a crucible. But "gold" that is more and more filled with a more perfect and pure love for God.
Do you believe in a loving God?
Do you believe that God sent Jesus Christ to die for you?
Yes, to both, with all my heart.
I believe that God loves us so much that he wants us to be brought to heaven, and to be completely free from the stain of sin, and will do anything to save us, to make us that way, even if it means chastising us for a little while, like any good father would do. Hebrews 12:6
God sent Jesus Christ not only to die for me, but to reveal the truth about God to me, to purify me, to make me whole again, and to raise me up from the cesspool of sin and slavery, and to craft me into the person I was meant to be, free from all attachment to sin, free from the stain of sin, free to know God so that I love him as I aught, free to love my neighbor as I ought. God is so merciful and just, and purgatory is a pure mercy for people who tend in their imperfect fallen nature to fall again and again, who rarely become the person that God sees they could be.
God loves me so much, and purgatory is one expression of that love.
What are Indulgences?
You've asked me that question already here (http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/debate-issues-related-to-catholicism/how-can-a-non-catholic-do-gods-will/msg1054967838/#msg1054967838). You can also go there to find your answer.
: 4WD Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 16:52:48
What we often see within some churches within Christendom, and presented here at the forum, the concept called Once-Saved-Always-Saved. I don't believe that concept and I don't want to discuss it here. However that is at one end of the spectrum of the thinking with respect to salvation. It would appear that in the Catholic church we find the other end of that spectrum. I will call it the concept of Never-Saved-Always-Hoping. I don't believe that concept either. Neither seem to understand salvation as it is presented in the Bible, particularly the NT.
It's not quite that way. Hope is an important virtue, one of the three theological virtues, of Faith, Hope and Charity. Of course we are always hoping, hoping in the promises of Jesus, and clinging to them in faith. But the Catholic who has been well Catechized has a very good handle as to whether when he dies God with judge him saved or not. That is something we call "final salvation". In another sense there is a sort of initial salvation which we know that we have received, through baptism.
We see truth in the words of Paul who it appears to view salvation as a process as well. In different places he says "been saved" "being saved" and "will be saved" referring to different stages of the process.
In effect we see salvation as a healing process for the soul as well as the great gift of eternal bliss.
: Catholica Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 17:07:43
You've asked me that question already here (http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/debate-issues-related-to-catholicism/how-can-a-non-catholic-do-gods-will/msg1054967838/#msg1054967838). You can also go there to find your answer.
Yes ,I read that but this pertains to Purgatory.
Do Indulgences accrued lessen the time spent in Purgatory?
: Catholica Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 16:21:45
: Brother Johan Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 15:52:52
Now for clarification, is purgatory neither heaven nor hell?
Is it an in between place?
Purgatory is a place (or state, the church doesn't define it, though I believe it to be a place) for souls who, at the point of their death, died in the grace of God but were not perfectly sanctified during their life. Everyone who is purged in purgatory is done so so that one day they go to heaven. At the point of death they are judged as saved, so they will all become members of heaven one day.
How do you fit Hebrews 10, 14 into that, as you state were not perfectly sanctified
For by a single offering He HAS perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
"For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified." Hebrews 10:14
Thank you. That is clear if you ask me. No purgatory needed. ::tippinghat::
: winsome Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 09:04:08
Purgatory continued
Holiness
Purgatory is about becoming holy. Catholics call this Sanctification but Protestants use Sanctification differently. It is about the secondary consequences of sin not the primary consequence of sin. The primary consequence of sin is a rupture (partial or total) of communion with God. It is the healing of that rupture that Jesus atoned for on the cross.
We are born into a sinful condition.
"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." (Psalm 51:5).
During our lives we pile sin upon sin.
"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1Jn 1:8).
Or as St. Paul put it
"Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin." (Rom 7:25)
Unless we do something about them the consequences of sin accumulate and we are told that nothing unclean may enter heaven (Rev 21:27).
We are urged to become pure and holy, without blemish
"But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace." (2Pet 3:13-14)
"Beloved, we are God's children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. And every one who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure." (1Jn 3:2-3)
We need to be cleansed or purged from the consequences of sin that affect us so that we may be fit to enter the presence of God.
Love never ends says St. Paul (1 Cor 13:8). In heaven what else will there be. "So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.". (1 Cor 13:13), and in heaven there will be no need of faith for we will be in the presence of God; there will be no need for hope because we will have attained all that we hoped for.
All that we will need is perfect love, and indeed nothing else. All else besides love, that which detracts from love, that is less than love must be left behind. There can be no anger, hate, lust, greed, jealousy, pride, covetousness, or any such thing. It is not enough to "cover up" such things, they must be expunged.
This can appear as punishment but it would be better to regard it as God's discipline.
"It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time at their pleasure, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it." (Heb 12:7-11).
"Having been disciplined a little, they will receive great good, because God tested them and found them worthy of himself; like gold in the furnace he tried them, and like a sacrificial burnt offering he accepted them." (Wis 3:5-6)
Purgatory is seen as a purification process where the disorders in us caused by sin are healed, where the lingering attachments to sin, such as pride, anger lust etc., and "bad attitudes" are cleared out, so that we can be pure and holy and fit to be in the presence of God. It is God's mercy to allow us to be purified before we enter his presence, as we could not bear to be in his presence unless we are pure and holy.
"Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God." (2Cor 7:1)
Purgatory is God's mercy, because without it we could not achieve the holiness necessary to enter heaven - the holiness without which no one will see the Lord" - at least most of us couldn't
Jesus dealt with the punishment for sin due to our offence against God. But when we sin we also damage ourselves because we fall into patterns of sin.
Each time we sin we turn away from God towards something in creation, something that we put before God. We can see this in the story of the rich young man in Mt 19:16-23. He was a good man, he kept the commandments, but he was too attracted by his money and his material possessions. When Jesus called him he turned away because he could not part from them.
There is also a further point in this incident. I think it is worth quoting it in full.
16 And behold, one came up to him, saying, "Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?"
17 And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments."
18 He said to him, "Which?" And Jesus said, "You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness,
19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
20 The young man said to him, "All these I have observed; what do I still lack?"
21 Jesus said to him, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."
22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions.
23 And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
In verse 16 he asks what is necessary to have eternal life – i.e. to be saved.
Jesus responds (verse 17-19) that he must keep the commandments – i.e. not sin.
The young man says he has done all this and asks what else (verse 20) and Jesus says (verse 21) that if he wishes to be perfect he should sell his possessions and give them to the poor. This is not about not sinning, but about becoming holy and perfect.
The young man could not bring himself to do this and turns away (verse 22)
Now Jesus comments that it will be hard for him to enter heaven (verse 23). He does not say he will not be able to and that he will go to hell because he is good and keeps the commandments, but that it will be hard. It will be hard because he has to become holy and perfect before he can enter heaven and the young man cannot bring himself to give up his attachments to his wealth. The young man is destined for heaven but Jesus is indicating that he will have to become perfect by being purified of his attachments to wealth. If he does not manage it on earth the only option left is in some intermediate state between death and entry into heaven. This is purgatory.
The key to this is repentance. This is what John the Baptist called for (Mt 3:3), what Jesus called for (Mt 4:17) and what Peter called for (Acts 2:38). Now repentance means turning back from the created things that attract us and back to God – 100%.
"[Jesus Christ] who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds." (Ti 2:14)
This purification is being made holy. It is a work of God, not our work. But we have to co-operate with God and do what we can to assist the process. It is not a passive thing. We can do this now in this part of our life, or we can do it after death in purgatory. But we must be fully holy before we can enter heaven.
To be continued...
What does it mean to be fully holy?
Can you be partly holy?
Or are you either holy or not holy?
: Brother Johan Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 22:08:14
: winsome Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 09:04:08
Purgatory continued
Holiness
Purgatory is about becoming holy. Catholics call this Sanctification but Protestants use Sanctification differently. It is about the secondary consequences of sin not the primary consequence of sin. The primary consequence of sin is a rupture (partial or total) of communion with God. It is the healing of that rupture that Jesus atoned for on the cross.
We are born into a sinful condition.
"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." (Psalm 51:5).
During our lives we pile sin upon sin.
"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1Jn 1:8).
Or as St. Paul put it
"Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin." (Rom 7:25)
Unless we do something about them the consequences of sin accumulate and we are told that nothing unclean may enter heaven (Rev 21:27).
We are urged to become pure and holy, without blemish
"But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace." (2Pet 3:13-14)
"Beloved, we are God's children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. And every one who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure." (1Jn 3:2-3)
We need to be cleansed or purged from the consequences of sin that affect us so that we may be fit to enter the presence of God.
Love never ends says St. Paul (1 Cor 13:8). In heaven what else will there be. "So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.". (1 Cor 13:13), and in heaven there will be no need of faith for we will be in the presence of God; there will be no need for hope because we will have attained all that we hoped for.
All that we will need is perfect love, and indeed nothing else. All else besides love, that which detracts from love, that is less than love must be left behind. There can be no anger, hate, lust, greed, jealousy, pride, covetousness, or any such thing. It is not enough to "cover up" such things, they must be expunged.
This can appear as punishment but it would be better to regard it as God's discipline.
"It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time at their pleasure, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it." (Heb 12:7-11).
"Having been disciplined a little, they will receive great good, because God tested them and found them worthy of himself; like gold in the furnace he tried them, and like a sacrificial burnt offering he accepted them." (Wis 3:5-6)
Purgatory is seen as a purification process where the disorders in us caused by sin are healed, where the lingering attachments to sin, such as pride, anger lust etc., and "bad attitudes" are cleared out, so that we can be pure and holy and fit to be in the presence of God. It is God's mercy to allow us to be purified before we enter his presence, as we could not bear to be in his presence unless we are pure and holy.
"Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God." (2Cor 7:1)
Purgatory is God's mercy, because without it we could not achieve the holiness necessary to enter heaven - the holiness without which no one will see the Lord" - at least most of us couldn't
Jesus dealt with the punishment for sin due to our offence against God. But when we sin we also damage ourselves because we fall into patterns of sin.
Each time we sin we turn away from God towards something in creation, something that we put before God. We can see this in the story of the rich young man in Mt 19:16-23. He was a good man, he kept the commandments, but he was too attracted by his money and his material possessions. When Jesus called him he turned away because he could not part from them.
There is also a further point in this incident. I think it is worth quoting it in full.
16 And behold, one came up to him, saying, "Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?"
17 And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments."
18 He said to him, "Which?" And Jesus said, "You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness,
19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
20 The young man said to him, "All these I have observed; what do I still lack?"
21 Jesus said to him, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."
22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions.
23 And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
In verse 16 he asks what is necessary to have eternal life – i.e. to be saved.
Jesus responds (verse 17-19) that he must keep the commandments – i.e. not sin.
The young man says he has done all this and asks what else (verse 20) and Jesus says (verse 21) that if he wishes to be perfect he should sell his possessions and give them to the poor. This is not about not sinning, but about becoming holy and perfect.
The young man could not bring himself to do this and turns away (verse 22)
Now Jesus comments that it will be hard for him to enter heaven (verse 23). He does not say he will not be able to and that he will go to hell because he is good and keeps the commandments, but that it will be hard. It will be hard because he has to become holy and perfect before he can enter heaven and the young man cannot bring himself to give up his attachments to his wealth. The young man is destined for heaven but Jesus is indicating that he will have to become perfect by being purified of his attachments to wealth. If he does not manage it on earth the only option left is in some intermediate state between death and entry into heaven. This is purgatory.
The key to this is repentance. This is what John the Baptist called for (Mt 3:3), what Jesus called for (Mt 4:17) and what Peter called for (Acts 2:38). Now repentance means turning back from the created things that attract us and back to God – 100%.
"[Jesus Christ] who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds." (Ti 2:14)
This purification is being made holy. It is a work of God, not our work. But we have to co-operate with God and do what we can to assist the process. It is not a passive thing. We can do this now in this part of our life, or we can do it after death in purgatory. But we must be fully holy before we can enter heaven.
To be continued...
What does it mean to be fully holy?
Can you be partly holy?
Or are you either holy or not holy?
HolinessIn the Old Testament the Hebrew Kadosch (holy) meant being separated from the secular or profane, or dedication to God's service, as Israel was said to be holy because it was the people of God. The holiness of God identified his separation from all evil. And among creatures they are holy by their relation to him. Holiness in creatures is either subjective or objective or both. It is subjective essentially by the possession of divine grace and morally by the practice of virtue. Objective holiness in creatures denotes their exclusive consecration to the service of God: priests by their ordination, religious by their vows, sacred places, vessels, and vestments by the blessing they receive and the sacred purpose for which they are reserved. (from catholicculture.org)
The rich young man was holy in that he was dedicated to serving God. He kept the commandments from his youth.
He had done what Jesus said he must do to attain eternal life.
But he lacked something. He was still attached to his wealth. He was holding something back from his service to God and he needed to let go to be perfect.
Becoming holy is progressive as we grow in grace and in moral virtue.
: 4WD Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 16:41:25
6. If we are not wholly clean, holy and perfect there must be some process whereby we can be cleansed and made holy and perfect. Scripture tells us there is:
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb 12:22-23)
This shows that there is a way, a process, whereby the spirits of just men are made perfect
.
That is called being saved. It is described variously in several places in the NT. One of my favorites is
Tit 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
Tit 3:6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Tit 3:7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
All of the above deals with our life now on this earth. There is nothing in any of those passages dealing with any activity following physical death.
Sure, we are washed clean in baptism but after that we sin. Our lives are a pattern of sin, repentance, sin again, repentance again.
We can fall into patterns of sin that can become engrained.
In the Sacraments God has made available to us all that we need to become perfect in this life. But, as Paul describes in Eph 4, we are constantly struggling to achieve that.
I believe that Heb 12:22-23 shows that those in heaven have been made perfect. If it does not completed in this life it can be finished afterwards.
: kensington Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 21:44:47
"For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified." Hebrews 10:14
Thank you. That is clear if you ask me. No purgatory needed. ::tippinghat::
Do you think you are perfect?
Many texts tell us that perfection is ongoing:
"Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect." (Rom 12:2)
"Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God." (2Cor 7:1)
"And let perseverance be perfect, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing." (Jas 1:4)
"There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear because fear has to do with punishment, and so one who fears is not yet perfect in love." (1Jn 4:18).
If we can achieve perfection in this life – great.
If not Purgatory, a process of achieving that perfection after we die, is God's mercy, because without it we could not achieve the holiness necessary to enter heaven, at least most of us couldn't.
: winsome Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 03:24:03
: kensington Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 21:44:47
"For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified." Hebrews 10:14
Thank you. That is clear if you ask me. No purgatory needed. ::tippinghat::
Do you think you are perfect?
Many texts tell us that perfection is ongoing:
"Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect." (Rom 12:2)
"Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God." (2Cor 7:1)
"And let perseverance be perfect, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing." (Jas 1:4)
"There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear because fear has to do with punishment, and so one who fears is not yet perfect in love." (1Jn 4:18).
If we can achieve perfection in this life – great.
If not Purgatory, a process of achieving that perfection after we die, is God's mercy, because without it we could not achieve the holiness necessary to enter heaven, at least most of us couldn't.
No but she knows that Jesus IS perfect and He died in OUR place. Gods mercy sent His Son to die for us, we need nothing more.
: winsome Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 02:59:00
: Brother Johan Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 22:08:14
: winsome Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 09:04:08
Purgatory continued
Holiness
Purgatory is about becoming holy. Catholics call this Sanctification but Protestants use Sanctification differently. It is about the secondary consequences of sin not the primary consequence of sin. The primary consequence of sin is a rupture (partial or total) of communion with God. It is the healing of that rupture that Jesus atoned for on the cross.
We are born into a sinful condition.
"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." (Psalm 51:5).
During our lives we pile sin upon sin.
"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1Jn 1:8).
Or as St. Paul put it
"Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin." (Rom 7:25)
Unless we do something about them the consequences of sin accumulate and we are told that nothing unclean may enter heaven (Rev 21:27).
We are urged to become pure and holy, without blemish
"But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace." (2Pet 3:13-14)
"Beloved, we are God's children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. And every one who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure." (1Jn 3:2-3)
We need to be cleansed or purged from the consequences of sin that affect us so that we may be fit to enter the presence of God.
Love never ends says St. Paul (1 Cor 13:8). In heaven what else will there be. "So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.". (1 Cor 13:13), and in heaven there will be no need of faith for we will be in the presence of God; there will be no need for hope because we will have attained all that we hoped for.
All that we will need is perfect love, and indeed nothing else. All else besides love, that which detracts from love, that is less than love must be left behind. There can be no anger, hate, lust, greed, jealousy, pride, covetousness, or any such thing. It is not enough to "cover up" such things, they must be expunged.
This can appear as punishment but it would be better to regard it as God's discipline.
"It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time at their pleasure, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it." (Heb 12:7-11).
"Having been disciplined a little, they will receive great good, because God tested them and found them worthy of himself; like gold in the furnace he tried them, and like a sacrificial burnt offering he accepted them." (Wis 3:5-6)
Purgatory is seen as a purification process where the disorders in us caused by sin are healed, where the lingering attachments to sin, such as pride, anger lust etc., and "bad attitudes" are cleared out, so that we can be pure and holy and fit to be in the presence of God. It is God's mercy to allow us to be purified before we enter his presence, as we could not bear to be in his presence unless we are pure and holy.
"Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God." (2Cor 7:1)
Purgatory is God's mercy, because without it we could not achieve the holiness necessary to enter heaven - the holiness without which no one will see the Lord" - at least most of us couldn't
Jesus dealt with the punishment for sin due to our offence against God. But when we sin we also damage ourselves because we fall into patterns of sin.
Each time we sin we turn away from God towards something in creation, something that we put before God. We can see this in the story of the rich young man in Mt 19:16-23. He was a good man, he kept the commandments, but he was too attracted by his money and his material possessions. When Jesus called him he turned away because he could not part from them.
There is also a further point in this incident. I think it is worth quoting it in full.
16 And behold, one came up to him, saying, "Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?"
17 And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments."
18 He said to him, "Which?" And Jesus said, "You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness,
19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
20 The young man said to him, "All these I have observed; what do I still lack?"
21 Jesus said to him, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."
22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions.
23 And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
In verse 16 he asks what is necessary to have eternal life – i.e. to be saved.
Jesus responds (verse 17-19) that he must keep the commandments – i.e. not sin.
The young man says he has done all this and asks what else (verse 20) and Jesus says (verse 21) that if he wishes to be perfect he should sell his possessions and give them to the poor. This is not about not sinning, but about becoming holy and perfect.
The young man could not bring himself to do this and turns away (verse 22)
Now Jesus comments that it will be hard for him to enter heaven (verse 23). He does not say he will not be able to and that he will go to hell because he is good and keeps the commandments, but that it will be hard. It will be hard because he has to become holy and perfect before he can enter heaven and the young man cannot bring himself to give up his attachments to his wealth. The young man is destined for heaven but Jesus is indicating that he will have to become perfect by being purified of his attachments to wealth. If he does not manage it on earth the only option left is in some intermediate state between death and entry into heaven. This is purgatory.
The key to this is repentance. This is what John the Baptist called for (Mt 3:3), what Jesus called for (Mt 4:17) and what Peter called for (Acts 2:38). Now repentance means turning back from the created things that attract us and back to God – 100%.
"[Jesus Christ] who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds." (Ti 2:14)
This purification is being made holy. It is a work of God, not our work. But we have to co-operate with God and do what we can to assist the process. It is not a passive thing. We can do this now in this part of our life, or we can do it after death in purgatory. But we must be fully holy before we can enter heaven.
To be continued...
What does it mean to be fully holy?
Can you be partly holy?
Or are you either holy or not holy?
Holiness
In the Old Testament the Hebrew Kadosch (holy) meant being separated from the secular or profane, or dedication to God's service, as Israel was said to be holy because it was the people of God. The holiness of God identified his separation from all evil. And among creatures they are holy by their relation to him. Holiness in creatures is either subjective or objective or both. It is subjective essentially by the possession of divine grace and morally by the practice of virtue. Objective holiness in creatures denotes their exclusive consecration to the service of God: priests by their ordination, religious by their vows, sacred places, vessels, and vestments by the blessing they receive and the sacred purpose for which they are reserved. (from catholicculture.org)
The rich young man was holy in that he was dedicated to serving God. He kept the commandments from his youth.
He had done what Jesus said he must do to attain eternal life.
But he lacked something. He was still attached to his wealth. He was holding something back from his service to God and he needed to let go to be perfect.
Becoming holy is progressive as we grow in grace and in moral virtue.
If God calls us holy, would we be holy? Or only partly holy?
Is holiness an inward state or is it outward good moral behavior?
: Brother Johan Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 06:19:22
If God calls us holy, would we be holy? Or only partly holy?
Is holiness an inward state or is it outward good moral behavior?
When God calls us holy we are so. And we are to be holy in all that we do. Living testaments of the message and spirit of Christ.
: Catholica Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 17:12:54
: 4WD Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 16:52:48
What we often see within some churches within Christendom, and presented here at the forum, the concept called Once-Saved-Always-Saved. I don't believe that concept and I don't want to discuss it here. However that is at one end of the spectrum of the thinking with respect to salvation. It would appear that in the Catholic church we find the other end of that spectrum. I will call it the concept of Never-Saved-Always-Hoping. I don't believe that concept either. Neither seem to understand salvation as it is presented in the Bible, particularly the NT.
It's not quite that way. Hope is an important virtue, one of the three theological virtues, of Faith, Hope and Charity. Of course we are always hoping, hoping in the promises of Jesus, and clinging to them in faith. But the Catholic who has been well Catechized has a very good handle as to whether when he dies God with judge him saved or not. That is something we call "final salvation". In another sense there is a sort of initial salvation which we know that we have received, through baptism.
We see truth in the words of Paul who it appears to view salvation as a process as well. In different places he says "been saved" "being saved" and "will be saved" referring to different stages of the process.
In effect we see salvation as a healing process for the soul as well as the great gift of eternal bliss.
You are using the biblical meaning for "hope", i.e., Greek
elpis meaning joyful and confident expectation of eternal salvation
I used the "English" meaning of hope, i.e.,
to wish for, there not the typical biblical meaning of hope. Perhaps I should have labeled it
Never-Saved-Always-Wishing.
The different stages of saved, being saved and will be saved represent the on-going process of sanctification, not varying degrees of becoming but not quite saved. There is no becoming saved; there is only saved and unsaved. There is no spectrum to salvation. One is either in Christ or not; during life and at death. And for those in Christ there is "therefore now no condemnation" (Rom 8:1).
: winsome Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 03:20:49
: 4WD Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 16:41:25
6. If we are not wholly clean, holy and perfect there must be some process whereby we can be cleansed and made holy and perfect. Scripture tells us there is:
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb 12:22-23)
This shows that there is a way, a process, whereby the spirits of just men are made perfect
.
That is called being saved. It is described variously in several places in the NT. One of my favorites is
Tit 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
Tit 3:6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Tit 3:7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
All of the above deals with our life now on this earth. There is nothing in any of those passages dealing with any activity following physical death.
Sure, we are washed clean in baptism but after that we sin. Our lives are a pattern of sin, repentance, sin again, repentance again.
We can fall into patterns of sin that can become engrained.
In the Sacraments God has made available to us all that we need to become perfect in this life. But, as Paul describes in Eph 4, we are constantly struggling to achieve that.
I believe that Heb 12:22-23 shows that those in heaven have been made perfect. If it does not completed in this life it can be finished afterwards.
But those patterns of sin, repentance, sin again, repentance again are not patterns of saved, not saved, saved again. Yes Hebrews 12 says that those in heaven have been made perfect, but there is nothing in Hebrews 12 that says if you aren't made perfect in this life, you get another chance. That is the lesson Jesus gave us in the story of the ten virgins in Matthew 25. That is a consistent message throughout the NT. You are ready or you are not. Those that teach maybe ready maybe not do such a disservice to the gospel message.
We are saved through faith and we are lost through lack of faith. The problem you speak of about sin that can become ingrained is that it can lead to unbelief, that is, a lack of faith. And here I am speaking about belief or faith that is not just intellectual assent. As James notes, even the demons have intellectual assent.
: winsome Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 02:59:00
Becoming holy is progressive as we grow in grace and in moral virtue.
That is true, but being saved is not progressive.
: chosenone Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 03:51:47
: winsome Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 03:24:03
: kensington Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 21:44:47
"For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified." Hebrews 10:14
Thank you. That is clear if you ask me. No purgatory needed. ::tippinghat::
Do you think you are perfect?
Many texts tell us that perfection is ongoing:
"Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect." (Rom 12:2)
"Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God." (2Cor 7:1)
"And let perseverance be perfect, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing." (Jas 1:4)
"There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear because fear has to do with punishment, and so one who fears is not yet perfect in love." (1Jn 4:18).
If we can achieve perfection in this life – great.
If not Purgatory, a process of achieving that perfection after we die, is God's mercy, because without it we could not achieve the holiness necessary to enter heaven, at least most of us couldn't.
No but she knows that Jesus IS perfect
That doesn't make her perfect.
"
You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."(Mt 5:48)
: chosenone Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 03:51:47
and He died in OUR place.
No he didn't. That is false Protestant theology.
: chosenone Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 03:51:47
Gods mercy sent His Son to die for us,
That's better
: chosenone Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 03:51:47
we need nothing more.
But we do
: Buster D Body Crab Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 06:29:27
: Brother Johan Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 06:19:22
If God calls us holy, would we be holy? Or only partly holy?
Is holiness an inward state or is it outward good moral behavior?
When God calls us holy we are so. And we are to be holy in all that we do. Living testaments of the message and spirit of Christ.
Any evidence for those statements?
: Brother Johan Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 06:19:22
: winsome Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 02:59:00
: Brother Johan Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 22:08:14
: winsome Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 09:04:08
Purgatory continued
Holiness
Purgatory is about becoming holy. Catholics call this Sanctification but Protestants use Sanctification differently. It is about the secondary consequences of sin not the primary consequence of sin. The primary consequence of sin is a rupture (partial or total) of communion with God. It is the healing of that rupture that Jesus atoned for on the cross.
We are born into a sinful condition.
"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." (Psalm 51:5).
During our lives we pile sin upon sin.
"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1Jn 1:8).
Or as St. Paul put it
"Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin." (Rom 7:25)
Unless we do something about them the consequences of sin accumulate and we are told that nothing unclean may enter heaven (Rev 21:27).
We are urged to become pure and holy, without blemish
"But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace." (2Pet 3:13-14)
"Beloved, we are God's children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. And every one who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure." (1Jn 3:2-3)
We need to be cleansed or purged from the consequences of sin that affect us so that we may be fit to enter the presence of God.
Love never ends says St. Paul (1 Cor 13:8). In heaven what else will there be. "So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.". (1 Cor 13:13), and in heaven there will be no need of faith for we will be in the presence of God; there will be no need for hope because we will have attained all that we hoped for.
All that we will need is perfect love, and indeed nothing else. All else besides love, that which detracts from love, that is less than love must be left behind. There can be no anger, hate, lust, greed, jealousy, pride, covetousness, or any such thing. It is not enough to "cover up" such things, they must be expunged.
This can appear as punishment but it would be better to regard it as God's discipline.
"It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time at their pleasure, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it." (Heb 12:7-11).
"Having been disciplined a little, they will receive great good, because God tested them and found them worthy of himself; like gold in the furnace he tried them, and like a sacrificial burnt offering he accepted them." (Wis 3:5-6)
Purgatory is seen as a purification process where the disorders in us caused by sin are healed, where the lingering attachments to sin, such as pride, anger lust etc., and "bad attitudes" are cleared out, so that we can be pure and holy and fit to be in the presence of God. It is God's mercy to allow us to be purified before we enter his presence, as we could not bear to be in his presence unless we are pure and holy.
"Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God." (2Cor 7:1)
Purgatory is God's mercy, because without it we could not achieve the holiness necessary to enter heaven - the holiness without which no one will see the Lord" - at least most of us couldn't
Jesus dealt with the punishment for sin due to our offence against God. But when we sin we also damage ourselves because we fall into patterns of sin.
Each time we sin we turn away from God towards something in creation, something that we put before God. We can see this in the story of the rich young man in Mt 19:16-23. He was a good man, he kept the commandments, but he was too attracted by his money and his material possessions. When Jesus called him he turned away because he could not part from them.
There is also a further point in this incident. I think it is worth quoting it in full.
16 And behold, one came up to him, saying, "Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?"
17 And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments."
18 He said to him, "Which?" And Jesus said, "You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness,
19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
20 The young man said to him, "All these I have observed; what do I still lack?"
21 Jesus said to him, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."
22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions.
23 And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
In verse 16 he asks what is necessary to have eternal life – i.e. to be saved.
Jesus responds (verse 17-19) that he must keep the commandments – i.e. not sin.
The young man says he has done all this and asks what else (verse 20) and Jesus says (verse 21) that if he wishes to be perfect he should sell his possessions and give them to the poor. This is not about not sinning, but about becoming holy and perfect.
The young man could not bring himself to do this and turns away (verse 22)
Now Jesus comments that it will be hard for him to enter heaven (verse 23). He does not say he will not be able to and that he will go to hell because he is good and keeps the commandments, but that it will be hard. It will be hard because he has to become holy and perfect before he can enter heaven and the young man cannot bring himself to give up his attachments to his wealth. The young man is destined for heaven but Jesus is indicating that he will have to become perfect by being purified of his attachments to wealth. If he does not manage it on earth the only option left is in some intermediate state between death and entry into heaven. This is purgatory.
The key to this is repentance. This is what John the Baptist called for (Mt 3:3), what Jesus called for (Mt 4:17) and what Peter called for (Acts 2:38). Now repentance means turning back from the created things that attract us and back to God – 100%.
"[Jesus Christ] who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds." (Ti 2:14)
This purification is being made holy. It is a work of God, not our work. But we have to co-operate with God and do what we can to assist the process. It is not a passive thing. We can do this now in this part of our life, or we can do it after death in purgatory. But we must be fully holy before we can enter heaven.
To be continued...
What does it mean to be fully holy?
Can you be partly holy?
Or are you either holy or not holy?
Holiness
In the Old Testament the Hebrew Kadosch (holy) meant being separated from the secular or profane, or dedication to God's service, as Israel was said to be holy because it was the people of God. The holiness of God identified his separation from all evil. And among creatures they are holy by their relation to him. Holiness in creatures is either subjective or objective or both. It is subjective essentially by the possession of divine grace and morally by the practice of virtue. Objective holiness in creatures denotes their exclusive consecration to the service of God: priests by their ordination, religious by their vows, sacred places, vessels, and vestments by the blessing they receive and the sacred purpose for which they are reserved. (from catholicculture.org)
The rich young man was holy in that he was dedicated to serving God. He kept the commandments from his youth.
He had done what Jesus said he must do to attain eternal life.
But he lacked something. He was still attached to his wealth. He was holding something back from his service to God and he needed to let go to be perfect.
Becoming holy is progressive as we grow in grace and in moral virtue.
If God calls us holy, would we be holy? Or only partly holy?
When does God call us holy?
: Brother Johan Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 06:19:22
Is holiness an inward state or is it outward good moral behavior?
It's both
It's an inwards state that results in good moral behaviour
: winsome Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 07:43:04
: Buster D Body Crab Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 06:29:27
: Brother Johan Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 06:19:22
If God calls us holy, would we be holy? Or only partly holy?
Is holiness an inward state or is it outward good moral behavior?
When God calls us holy we are so. And we are to be holy in all that we do. Living testaments of the message and spirit of Christ.
Any evidence for those statements?
Rom 3:19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;
Rom 3:20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
Rom 3:25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
: winsome Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 02:59:00
: Brother Johan Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 22:08:14
: winsome Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 09:04:08
Purgatory continued
Holiness
Purgatory is about becoming holy. Catholics call this Sanctification but Protestants use Sanctification differently. It is about the secondary consequences of sin not the primary consequence of sin. The primary consequence of sin is a rupture (partial or total) of communion with God. It is the healing of that rupture that Jesus atoned for on the cross.
We are born into a sinful condition.
"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." (Psalm 51:5).
During our lives we pile sin upon sin.
"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1Jn 1:8).
Or as St. Paul put it
"Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin." (Rom 7:25)
Unless we do something about them the consequences of sin accumulate and we are told that nothing unclean may enter heaven (Rev 21:27).
We are urged to become pure and holy, without blemish
"But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace." (2Pet 3:13-14)
"Beloved, we are God's children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. And every one who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure." (1Jn 3:2-3)
We need to be cleansed or purged from the consequences of sin that affect us so that we may be fit to enter the presence of God.
Love never ends says St. Paul (1 Cor 13:8). In heaven what else will there be. "So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.". (1 Cor 13:13), and in heaven there will be no need of faith for we will be in the presence of God; there will be no need for hope because we will have attained all that we hoped for.
All that we will need is perfect love, and indeed nothing else. All else besides love, that which detracts from love, that is less than love must be left behind. There can be no anger, hate, lust, greed, jealousy, pride, covetousness, or any such thing. It is not enough to "cover up" such things, they must be expunged.
This can appear as punishment but it would be better to regard it as God's discipline.
"It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time at their pleasure, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it." (Heb 12:7-11).
"Having been disciplined a little, they will receive great good, because God tested them and found them worthy of himself; like gold in the furnace he tried them, and like a sacrificial burnt offering he accepted them." (Wis 3:5-6)
Purgatory is seen as a purification process where the disorders in us caused by sin are healed, where the lingering attachments to sin, such as pride, anger lust etc., and "bad attitudes" are cleared out, so that we can be pure and holy and fit to be in the presence of God. It is God's mercy to allow us to be purified before we enter his presence, as we could not bear to be in his presence unless we are pure and holy.
"Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God." (2Cor 7:1)
Purgatory is God's mercy, because without it we could not achieve the holiness necessary to enter heaven - the holiness without which no one will see the Lord" - at least most of us couldn't
Jesus dealt with the punishment for sin due to our offence against God. But when we sin we also damage ourselves because we fall into patterns of sin.
Each time we sin we turn away from God towards something in creation, something that we put before God. We can see this in the story of the rich young man in Mt 19:16-23. He was a good man, he kept the commandments, but he was too attracted by his money and his material possessions. When Jesus called him he turned away because he could not part from them.
There is also a further point in this incident. I think it is worth quoting it in full.
16 And behold, one came up to him, saying, "Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?"
17 And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments."
18 He said to him, "Which?" And Jesus said, "You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness,
19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
20 The young man said to him, "All these I have observed; what do I still lack?"
21 Jesus said to him, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."
22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions.
23 And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
In verse 16 he asks what is necessary to have eternal life – i.e. to be saved.
Jesus responds (verse 17-19) that he must keep the commandments – i.e. not sin.
The young man says he has done all this and asks what else (verse 20) and Jesus says (verse 21) that if he wishes to be perfect he should sell his possessions and give them to the poor. This is not about not sinning, but about becoming holy and perfect.
The young man could not bring himself to do this and turns away (verse 22)
Now Jesus comments that it will be hard for him to enter heaven (verse 23). He does not say he will not be able to and that he will go to hell because he is good and keeps the commandments, but that it will be hard. It will be hard because he has to become holy and perfect before he can enter heaven and the young man cannot bring himself to give up his attachments to his wealth. The young man is destined for heaven but Jesus is indicating that he will have to become perfect by being purified of his attachments to wealth. If he does not manage it on earth the only option left is in some intermediate state between death and entry into heaven. This is purgatory.
The key to this is repentance. This is what John the Baptist called for (Mt 3:3), what Jesus called for (Mt 4:17) and what Peter called for (Acts 2:38). Now repentance means turning back from the created things that attract us and back to God – 100%.
"[Jesus Christ] who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds." (Ti 2:14)
This purification is being made holy. It is a work of God, not our work. But we have to co-operate with God and do what we can to assist the process. It is not a passive thing. We can do this now in this part of our life, or we can do it after death in purgatory. But we must be fully holy before we can enter heaven.
To be continued...
What does it mean to be fully holy?
Can you be partly holy?
Or are you either holy or not holy?
Holiness
In the Old Testament the Hebrew Kadosch (holy) meant being separated from the secular or profane, or dedication to God's service, as Israel was said to be holy because it was the people of God. The holiness of God identified his separation from all evil. And among creatures they are holy by their relation to him. Holiness in creatures is either subjective or objective or both. It is subjective essentially by the possession of divine grace and morally by the practice of virtue. Objective holiness in creatures denotes their exclusive consecration to the service of God: priests by their ordination, religious by their vows, sacred places, vessels, and vestments by the blessing they receive and the sacred purpose for which they are reserved. (from catholicculture.org)
The rich young man was holy in that he was dedicated to serving God. He kept the commandments from his youth.
He had done what Jesus said he must do to attain eternal life.
But he lacked something. He was still attached to his wealth. He was holding something back from his service to God and he needed to let go to be perfect.
Becoming holy is progressive as we grow in grace and in moral virtue.
Is it possible for us to be holy, if we keep all the commandments apart from sharing in the Devine nature?
: chosenone Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 03:51:47
No but she knows that Jesus IS perfect and He died in OUR place. Gods mercy sent His Son to die for us, we need nothing more.
Amen!
Isaiah 53:5 "But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed."
: winsome Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 07:43:04
: Buster D Body Crab Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 06:29:27
: Brother Johan Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 06:19:22
If God calls us holy, would we be holy? Or only partly holy?
Is holiness an inward state or is it outward good moral behavior?
When God calls us holy we are so. And we are to be holy in all that we do. Living testaments of the message and spirit of Christ.
Any evidence for those statements?
Yes, scripture.
: Brother Johan Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 17:37:51
: Catholica Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 16:21:45
: Brother Johan Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 15:52:52
Now for clarification, is purgatory neither heaven nor hell?
Is it an in between place?
Purgatory is a place (or state, the church doesn't define it, though I believe it to be a place) for souls who, at the point of their death, died in the grace of God but were not perfectly sanctified during their life. Everyone who is purged in purgatory is done so so that one day they go to heaven. At the point of death they are judged as saved, so they will all become members of heaven one day.
How do you fit Hebrews 10, 14 into that, as you state were not perfectly sanctified
For by a single offering He HAS perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
The past tense of this verse refers to Christ's sacrifice being in the past, and the quality of that sacrifice is that the merit he earned was sufficient to sanctify all Christians perfectly.
Once a person is sanctified in purgatory, they are perfected for all time.
As for those who have not reached completion, who are on the path of being sanctified. The Catholic Church (I believe rightly) associates sanctification with holiness and righteousness. In Hebrews 12 we read:
Hebrews 12
4 In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,
"My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6
because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son."
7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? 8 If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. 9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! 10 They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good,
in order that we may share in his holiness. 11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.
In this frame of belief, one can go back to see Hebrews 10 and it's reference to those people who "are sanctified" as being ones who have reached the conclusion of this path to perfect sanctity, setting aside sin completely. This usually finally occurs in purgatory, as (I believe even Protestants agree) people still have attachments to sin to the end of their lives. This is a sign of an imperfect will, one which has not set itself completely on doing the will of the Father.
I'm curious about this, do you believe that we have free will? How about in heaven, do we have free will? Or is this something that is taken away from us?
To me having free will is one of the ways that God created us in his image, something that separates us from the brute animals.
: 4WD Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 07:53:34
: winsome Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 07:43:04
: Buster D Body Crab Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 06:29:27
: Brother Johan Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 06:19:22
If God calls us holy, would we be holy? Or only partly holy?
Is holiness an inward state or is it outward good moral behavior?
When God calls us holy we are so. And we are to be holy in all that we do. Living testaments of the message and spirit of Christ.
Any evidence for those statements?
Rom 3:19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;
Rom 3:20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
Rom 3:25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
Where there does God call us holy?
: Buster D Body Crab Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 08:15:12
: winsome Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 07:43:04
: Buster D Body Crab Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 06:29:27
: Brother Johan Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 06:19:22
If God calls us holy, would we be holy? Or only partly holy?
Is holiness an inward state or is it outward good moral behavior?
When God calls us holy we are so. And we are to be holy in all that we do. Living testaments of the message and spirit of Christ.
Any evidence for those statements?
Yes, scripture.
Where in scripture?
: winsome Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 10:13:26
Where in scripture?
How would it be missed when the Christian is the temple of the Holy Spirit?
1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.2 Timothy 2:21
Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work.
1 John 5:4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
Colossians 3:12-15
Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony. And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful.
These are just a few. It is not hard to find more if you're of a mind.
: winsome Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 10:12:32
: 4WD Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 07:53:34
: winsome Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 07:43:04
: Buster D Body Crab Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 06:29:27
: Brother Johan Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 06:19:22
If God calls us holy, would we be holy? Or only partly holy?
Is holiness an inward state or is it outward good moral behavior?
When God calls us holy we are so. And we are to be holy in all that we do. Living testaments of the message and spirit of Christ.
Any evidence for those statements?
Rom 3:19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;
Rom 3:20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
Rom 3:25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
Where there does God call us holy?
Rom_11:16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
Eph 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
Heb_3:1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession;
1Pe_2:5 you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.
Rev_20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
Rev 22:10 And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.
Rev 22:11 Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy." I just gave you the explicit references to us, who have been saved, being holy.
But if you bother to look up the Greek word for holy, you will see that it is
hagios and if you look of the Greek word for saint you will find that it is the exact same word
hagios. Now then you need to go through the NT and see where we are called saints, another word for the Christian. That appears well over 50 times.
There is no lack of places where God calls us holy.
: Catholica Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 09:57:03
: Brother Johan Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 17:37:51
: Catholica Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 16:21:45
: Brother Johan Thu Apr 16, 2015 - 15:52:52
Now for clarification, is purgatory neither heaven nor hell?
Is it an in between place?
Purgatory is a place (or state, the church doesn't define it, though I believe it to be a place) for souls who, at the point of their death, died in the grace of God but were not perfectly sanctified during their life. Everyone who is purged in purgatory is done so so that one day they go to heaven. At the point of death they are judged as saved, so they will all become members of heaven one day.
How do you fit Hebrews 10, 14 into that, as you state were not perfectly sanctified
For by a single offering He HAS perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
The past tense of this verse refers to Christ's sacrifice being in the past, and the quality of that sacrifice is that the merit he earned was sufficient to sanctify all Christians perfectly.
Once a person is sanctified in purgatory, they are perfected for all time.
As for those who have not reached completion, who are on the path of being sanctified. The Catholic Church (I believe rightly) associates sanctification with holiness and righteousness. In Hebrews 12 we read:
Hebrews 12
4 In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,
"My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6
because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son."
7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? 8 If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. 9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! 10 They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness. 11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.
In this frame of belief, one can go back to see Hebrews 10 and it's reference to those people who "are sanctified" as being ones who have reached the conclusion of this path to perfect sanctity, setting aside sin completely. This usually finally occurs in purgatory, as (I believe even Protestants agree) people still have attachments to sin to the end of their lives. This is a sign of an imperfect will, one which has not set itself completely on doing the will of the Father.
I'm curious about this, do you believe that we have free will? How about in heaven, do we have free will? Or is this something that is taken away from us?
To me having free will is one of the ways that God created us in his image, something that separates us from the brute animals.
1 Corinthians 6, 11
And such were some of you. But you were washed, you WERE SANCTIFIED, you were justified in the name
of our Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
Were sanctified, past tense, not will be sanctified in purgatory.
Whether protestants agree or not, I don't know, I am not a Protestant.
Do I believe in free will? Before I answer that please give me your understanding of free will.
You state,
"People still have attachments to sin to the end of their lives"
Not sure where you base this on.
1 Peter 4, 1-2
Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves with the same thought, for whoever has suffered in the flesh
has ceased from sin, so as to live for the rest of the time in the flesh no longer by human passions but by the will of God.
Romans 6,, 1-7
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still
live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
We were buried therefore with Him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the
Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
For if we have been united with Him in a death like His, we shall certainly be united with Him in a resurrection like His.
We know that our old self was crucified with Him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be
enslaved to sin. For he who has died is freed from sin.
: 4WD Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 10:28:51
: winsome Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 10:12:32
: 4WD Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 07:53:34
: winsome Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 07:43:04
: Buster D Body Crab Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 06:29:27
: Brother Johan Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 06:19:22
If God calls us holy, would we be holy? Or only partly holy?
Is holiness an inward state or is it outward good moral behavior?
When God calls us holy we are so. And we are to be holy in all that we do. Living testaments of the message and spirit of Christ.
Any evidence for those statements?
Rom 3:19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;
Rom 3:20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
Rom 3:25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
Where there does God call us holy?
Rom_11:16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
Eph 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
Heb_3:1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession;
1Pe_2:5 you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.
Rev_20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
Rev 22:10 And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.
Rev 22:11 Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy."
I just gave you the explicit references to us, who have been saved, being holy.
But if you bother to look up the Greek word for holy, you will see that it is hagios and if you look of the Greek word for saint you will find that it is the exact same word hagios. Now then you need to go through the NT and see where we are called saints, another word for the Christian. That appears well over 50 times.
There is no lack of places where God calls us holy.
Great post!
Blue Letter Bible Greek Lexicon (https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G40)
hagios = most holy thing, a saint
: 4WD Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 10:28:51
: winsome Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 10:12:32
: 4WD Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 07:53:34
: winsome Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 07:43:04
: Buster D Body Crab Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 06:29:27
: Brother Johan Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 06:19:22
If God calls us holy, would we be holy? Or only partly holy?
Is holiness an inward state or is it outward good moral behavior?
When God calls us holy we are so. And we are to be holy in all that we do. Living testaments of the message and spirit of Christ.
Any evidence for those statements?
Rom 3:19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;
Rom 3:20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
Rom 3:25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
Where there does God call us holy?
Rom_11:16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
Eph 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
Heb_3:1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession;
1Pe_2:5 you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.
Rev_20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
Rev 22:10 And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.
Rev 22:11 Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy."
I just gave you the explicit references to us, who have been saved, being holy.
But if you bother to look up the Greek word for holy, you will see that it is hagios and if you look of the Greek word for saint you will find that it is the exact same word hagios. Now then you need to go through the NT and see where we are called saints, another word for the Christian. That appears well over 50 times.
There is no lack of places where God calls us holy.
But what is meant by
holy in these quotations and what are their contexts?
If you look up the Strong for holy (G40) you will find two distinct meanings
1. sacred (physically pure, morally blameless)
2. religious, (ceremonially consecrated)
These correspond to the two type of holiness I gave in my definition:
1. Subjective holiness – "essentially by the possession of divine grace and morally by the practice of virtue"
2. Objective holiness – "in creatures denotes their exclusive consecration to the service of God".
Then there is corporate holiness and individual holiness. For example the the Nicene Creed is accepted as a valid statement of faith by most Christians in the world. It describes the Church as one,
holy catholic and apostolic.
The Apostles Creed, also widely accepted, refers to the
holy catholic Church.
The Church is holy because it is the Body of Christ, who is all holy.
But that does not mean that all the
members are holy in the sense of "the possession of divine grace and morally by the practice of virtue". It is very obvious that many are sinners.
Take 1 Peter
Peter writes to believers telling them to be holy in every aspect of their conduct. (1Pet 1:15) and later in the same letter he gives instruction on being holy. This is individual moral holiness.
He continues later "So put away all malice and all guile and insincerity and envy and all slander....... and like living stones be yourselves built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood." (1Pet 2:1, 5)
Again individual moral holiness. But note –he would not have to tell them that if they were already
fully holy. And also note the "built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood" is onging into the future.
Then he says "But you are "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation." This is a corporate holiness because they are part of the body of Christ and also holiness in the sense of being set apart, consecrated in the service of God. As he says in verse 10 (quoting from Hosea) 'Once you were "no people" but now you are God's people'. As the definition I gave says "In the Old Testament the Hebrew Kadosch (holy) meant being separated from the secular or profane, or dedication to God's service, as Israel was said to be holy because it was the people of God.". Now the
Church is to be the holy nation – set apart, dedicated to God - holy
You speak of Scripture, but the Bible mentions only heaven and hell.
It does not. It certainly mentions an intermediate state to which the soul of Christ went after His death on the cross. 1 Pet. III., 19. This state was neither heaven nor hell, but the Limbo of the Fathers of the Old Law. In addition to this, Scripture mentions the purgatorial state. In any case, it would not matter if the Bible did mention but two places. My mentioning only London and New York could not prove the non-existence of Paris. It would be a different matter if Christ had said, "There is no purgatory." But He did not.
How do you prove the existence of such a state?
In Matt. V., 26, Christ, in condemning sin, speaks of liberation only after expiation. "Thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing." In Matt. XII., 32, He speaks of sin which "shall not be forgiven either in this world or in the world to come." Any remission of the effects of sin in the next world can refer only to purgatory. Above all St. Paul tells us that the day of judgment will try each man's work. That day is after death, when the soul goes to meet its God. What is the result of that judgment? If a man's work will not stand the test St. Paul says that "he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire." 1 Cor. III., 15. This cannot refer to eternal loss in hell, for no one is saved there. Nor can it refer to heaven, for there is no suffering in heaven. purgatory alone can explain this text As a matter of fact, all Christians believed in purgatory until the Reformation, when the reformers began their rejection of Christian doctrines at will. Prayer for the dead was ever the prevailing custom, in accordance with the recommendation of the Bible itself. "It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from their sins." 2 Mach. XII., 46. Prayer for the dead supposes a soul not in heaven where it does not need the help of prayer, nor in hell where prayer cannot assist it. Some intermediate state of purification and need, where prayer can help, is necessary. And the doctrine is most reasonable. "Nothing defiled shall enter heaven." Rev. XXL, 27. Yet not all defilement should cost man the loss of his soul. Even in this life human justice does not inflict capital punishment for every crime. Small offenses are punished by fines or by temporary imprisonment, after which the delinquent is liberated. Those who deny purgatory teach the harder and more unreasonable doctrine.
Nowhere in the Bible have I ever come across the word purgatory.
It is not a question of words, but of realities. The word "Trinity" is not in the Bible, but it expresses the truth that in the one God there are the three Persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in whose name we are baptised. As for purgatory, both Old and New Testaments contain prayers for the dead. That supposes them neither to be in heaven where they would not need our prayers, nor in hell where prayers could not help them. In the Old Testament we read in 2 Maccabees, 12:46 that "it is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins." In the New Testament we find St. Paul praying for the soul of his benefactor, Onesiphorus: "The Lord grant unto him to find mercy in that day." As for the actual teachings of Christ, in Matt., 12:32 He speaks of a sin so malicious that "it shall not be forgiven either in this world or in the world to come." In Lk., 12:59, having described different forms of retribution for sin, He declares that there will be no release until the "last mite" due to divine justice has been paid. In Lk., 16-19f. He made the intermediate state the basis of His parable about the rich man and the beggar, Lazarus. He depicted Lazarus as being in a state of happiness after death, but the rich man as consigned to a state of suffering. The Gospel describes the rich man as being "in hell," but that expression was used in the Hebrew sense of "sheol" or the netherworld, not as indicating a state of eternal reprobation to which modern usage restricts the word hell. In fact, the rich man, amidst his own sufferings, is shown, in vv. 27-28, as filled with charitable concern for his five brothers. These passages impelled the Anglican Bishop Gore to say that they strongly point to a middle state of purification. Finally, I Peter, 3:19 tells us that, between His death and resurrection the soul of Christ went to preach "to those spirits that were in prison," a reference which the non-Catholic Peake's revised "Commentary on the Bible" (1962) declares to be best interpreted as indicating the souls of those who had died in previous ages. From all this it should be clear that the Catholic doctrine of purgatory is not an unbiblical teaching.
: winsome Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 13:26:18
: 4WD Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 10:28:51
: winsome Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 10:12:32
: 4WD Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 07:53:34
: winsome Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 07:43:04
: Buster D Body Crab Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 06:29:27
: Brother Johan Fri Apr 17, 2015 - 06:19:22
If God calls us holy, would we be holy? Or only partly holy?
Is holiness an inward state or is it outward good moral behavior?
When God calls us holy we are so. And we are to be holy in all that we do. Living testaments of the message and spirit of Christ.
Any evidence for those statements?
Rom 3:19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;
Rom 3:20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
Rom 3:25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
Where there does God call us holy?
Rom_11:16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
Eph 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
Heb_3:1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession;
1Pe_2:5 you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.
Rev_20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
Rev 22:10 And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.
Rev 22:11 Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy."
I just gave you the explicit references to us, who have been saved, being holy.
But if you bother to look up the Greek word for holy, you will see that it is hagios and if you look of the Greek word for saint you will find that it is the exact same word hagios. Now then you need to go through the NT and see where we are called saints, another word for the Christian. That appears well over 50 times.
There is no lack of places where God calls us holy.
But what is meant by holy in these quotations and what are their contexts?
If you look up the Strong for holy (G40) you will find two distinct meanings
1. sacred (physically pure, morally blameless)
2. religious, (ceremonially consecrated)
G40ἅγιος
hagios
hag'-ee-os
From ἅγος hagos (an awful thing) compare G53, [H2282]; sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated): - (most) holy (one, thing), saint.
Sorry winsome. There are not two distinct meanings given there as you have stated. Clearly sacred, holy and saint are being presented on a common level. Perhaps you have a more extensive version of Strong's than I have access to. If anything, the definition there is defining "saint" as sacred and/or holy.
But that does not mean that all the members are holy in the sense of "the possession of divine grace and morally by the practice of virtue". It is very obvious that many are sinners.
The Bible never speaks of the saints as being sinners. They are polar opposites and there is nothing in between.
And for what it is worth I don't really acknowledge, accept or adhere to any particular creed. Creeds have the character of codifying divisions outwardly.
"If a man's work will not stand the test St. Paul says that "he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire." 1 Cor. III., 15."
You implied this is purgatory... but it cannot be so, as this trying by the Holy Spirit is a moment, a blink in time when our "WORKS" are revealed as to being on a foundation of Christ or not. Those not will be burned off as we enter Heaven. It's definitely a spiritual happening. The loss is works, and the fire is the Holy Spirit. But, it has to do with our works not our SINS... (it plainly says so) while according to you and any other Catholic who tries to defend purgatory... it's a place for the purification of sins.
That is not what I Cor. is speaking about. "Works" and "Sin" are differently. ::tippinghat::
The rule here is that when you copy and paste from a source that is not your own that you credit that source by link-back.
Your text is copied from Radio Replies Volume 5 664 LINKED HERE (http://www.radioreplies.info/radio-replies-vol-5.php?t=12)
Please remember this rule for future posts wherein you copy and paste others material. Per
rule 4.1c Thanks.
: Black KnightMI Sat Apr 18, 2015 - 06:22:09
Nowhere in the Bible have I ever come across the word purgatory.
It is not a question of words, but of realities. The word "Trinity" is not in the Bible, but it expresses the truth that in the one God there are the three Persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in whose name we are baptised. As for purgatory, both Old and New Testaments contain prayers for the dead. That supposes them neither to be in heaven where they would not need our prayers, nor in hell where prayers could not help them. In the Old Testament we read in 2 Maccabees, 12:46 that "it is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins." In the New Testament we find St. Paul praying for the soul of his benefactor, Onesiphorus: "The Lord grant unto him to find mercy in that day." As for the actual teachings of Christ, in Matt., 12:32 He speaks of a sin so malicious that "it shall not be forgiven either in this world or in the world to come." In Lk., 12:59, having described different forms of retribution for sin, He declares that there will be no release until the "last mite" due to divine justice has been paid. In Lk., 16-19f. He made the intermediate state the basis of His parable about the rich man and the beggar, Lazarus. He depicted Lazarus as being in a state of happiness after death, but the rich man as consigned to a state of suffering. The Gospel describes the rich man as being "in hell," but that expression was used in the Hebrew sense of "sheol" or the netherworld, not as indicating a state of eternal reprobation to which modern usage restricts the word hell. In fact, the rich man, amidst his own sufferings, is shown, in vv. 27-28, as filled with charitable concern for his five brothers. These passages impelled the Anglican Bishop Gore to say that they strongly point to a middle state of purification. Finally, I Peter, 3:19 tells us that, between His death and resurrection the soul of Christ went to preach "to those spirits that were in prison," a reference which the non-Catholic Peake's revised "Commentary on the Bible" (1962) declares to be best interpreted as indicating the souls of those who had died in previous ages. From all this it should be clear that the Catholic doctrine of purgatory is not an unbiblical teaching.
This text is a copy paste from a
Catholic Apologetic site Radio Replies Volume 1 962. You speak of Scripture, but the Bible mentions only heaven and hell
And
964. How do you prove the existence of such a state?
Linked on one page HERE (http://www.radioreplies.info/radio-replies-vol-1.php?t=84)
In future please link the source you copied and pasted your material from.
Per rule 4.1c Thanks.
: Black KnightMI Sat Apr 18, 2015 - 06:11:00
You speak of Scripture, but the Bible mentions only heaven and hell.
It does not. It certainly mentions an intermediate state to which the soul of Christ went after His death on the cross. 1 Pet. III., 19. This state was neither heaven nor hell, but the Limbo of the Fathers of the Old Law. In addition to this, Scripture mentions the purgatorial state. In any case, it would not matter if the Bible did mention but two places. My mentioning only London and New York could not prove the non-existence of Paris. It would be a different matter if Christ had said, "There is no purgatory." But He did not.
How do you prove the existence of such a state?
In Matt. V., 26, Christ, in condemning sin, speaks of liberation only after expiation. "Thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing." In Matt. XII., 32, He speaks of sin which "shall not be forgiven either in this world or in the world to come." Any remission of the effects of sin in the next world can refer only to purgatory. Above all St. Paul tells us that the day of judgment will try each man's work. That day is after death, when the soul goes to meet its God. What is the result of that judgment? If a man's work will not stand the test St. Paul says that "he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire." 1 Cor. III., 15. This cannot refer to eternal loss in hell, for no one is saved there. Nor can it refer to heaven, for there is no suffering in heaven. purgatory alone can explain this text As a matter of fact, all Christians believed in purgatory until the Reformation, when the reformers began their rejection of Christian doctrines at will. Prayer for the dead was ever the prevailing custom, in accordance with the recommendation of the Bible itself. "It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from their sins." 2 Mach. XII., 46. Prayer for the dead supposes a soul not in heaven where it does not need the help of prayer, nor in hell where prayer cannot assist it. Some intermediate state of purification and need, where prayer can help, is necessary. And the doctrine is most reasonable. "Nothing defiled shall enter heaven." Rev. XXL, 27. Yet not all defilement should cost man the loss of his soul. Even in this life human justice does not inflict capital punishment for every crime. Small offenses are punished by fines or by temporary imprisonment, after which the delinquent is liberated. Those who deny purgatory teach the harder and more unreasonable doctrine.
In fairness to the other member who was asked to credit the source for their copy and paste of articles shared here, please do the same with your work. Starting with page 1 and the OP and all other materials you shared here.
Per rule 4.1c
Thanks.
: winsome Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 08:57:22
Catholic belief:
All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. (CCC 1030)
The basic argument for Purgatory is as follows:
1. God is holy and perfect, and He tells us to be holy and perfect as he is holy and perfect.
"...but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy." (1Pet 1:15-16)
"You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."(Mt 5:48)
2. Unless we are clean (holy and perfect) we will not enter heaven for a life of communion with God.
"But nothing unclean will enter it" [The new Jerusalem – Heaven] (Rev 21:27)
3. Unless we are holy we will not see God.
"Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord" (Heb 12;14)
4. When we are initially justified (I believe by baptism) God makes us holy and perfect.
"When the goodness and loving kindness of God our Saviour appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Saviour, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life." (Ti 3:4-7)
5. But during our life we sin which disfigures and soils our souls and from which we need cleansing to restore us the holiness and perfection necessary to enter heaven. This is an ongoing process of sin, repentance, and cleansing.
"Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God." (2Cor 7:1)
6. If we are not wholly clean, holy and perfect there must be some process whereby we can be cleansed and made holy and perfect. Scripture tells us there is:
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb 12:22-23)
This shows that there is a way, a process, whereby the spirits of just men are made perfect.
God in his mercy has provided a final purification process whereby we are made fit to enter his presence.
Catholics call this process Purgatory.
Purgatory
"early 13c., from M.L. purgatorium (St. Bernard, early 12c.), from L.L., "means of cleansing," prop. neut. of purgatorius (adj.) "purging, cleansing," from L. purgare (see purge)."
(Online Etymology Dictionary)
Protestantism.
According to Wikipedia many Protestants have a similar concept but call it Glorification.
"Glorification is the Protestant alternative to Purgatory, as it is "the means by which the elect receive perfection before entering into the kingdom of Heaven." According to the theologies of most major Protestant groups" (Wikipedia)
Judaism
Some claim that the concept of purgatory is pagan, but in fact it is rooted in Judaic beliefs.
The classic point on this as I'm sure you are aware in 2Macc 12:46 where Judas Maccabeus offers up prayers for the dead, thus indicating that there is some existence after dead that can be helped by prayers. I realise you probably do not accept this as scriptural, although it was accepted as such by all Christians for almost 1500 years. However it is evidence of a Jewish belief, and there is other evidence that this was a Jewish belief. They called it Gehoim.
"According to Judaism, the purifying process that a sullied soul undergoes to cleanse it from its spiritual uncleanliness is a temporary one, and is restorative in its intent, and not punitive, as many mistakenly believe. Ultimately, all Jews have portion in the World to Come, as do Righteous Gentiles, non-Jews who observe the Seven Noahide Commandments." (see this link http://www.chabad.org/library/articl...-teachings.htm (http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/512017/jewish/Is-there-any-sort-of-Purgatory-or-Satan-in-Jewish-teachings.htm))
Orthodox Jewish practices, which branched off from the Old Testament religion, to this day reflect belief in this "place" of final purification which they call Gehenom: when an Orthodox Jewish person dies, a ritual called the taharah is performed by the "Chevra kaddisha -- gmilat khessed shel emet," the "Holy Society" or "Burial Society" of Jews knowledgeable in these traditional duties. They cleanse and prepare the physical body and recite the required prayers (Chevra Kadisha) which ask God for forgiveness for any sins the departed may have committed, and beg Him to guard and grant eternal peace to the departed. For eleven months after the death of a loved one certain members of the family pray a prayer called the Mourner's Qaddish (or Kaddish) for their loved one's purification.
Even the The Talmud1 speaks of Purgatory: Sabbath 33b:
"The judgment of the wicked in purgatory is twelve months."
Rosh HaShanah 16b-17a:
"It has been taught that the school of Shammai says: "There will be three groups on Judgment Day (yom haDin):
(1) one that is completely righteous,
(2) one that is completely wicked,
(3) and one that is in between."
Rabbi Shammai (50 BC - AD 30), one of the two main teachers of early rabbinical Judaism, also is on record as having interpreted Zechariah 13:9 as referring to a state of purification after death. Isaiah 66:15-16 and Malachi 3:2-3 were also interpreted in rabbinic literature as referring to the purgatorial process.
To be continued...
: 4WD Sat Apr 18, 2015 - 06:41:13
G40
ἅγιος
hagios
hag'-ee-os
From ἅγος hagos (an awful thing) compare G53, [H2282]; sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated): - (most) holy (one, thing), saint.
Sorry winsome. There are not two distinct meanings given there as you have stated. Clearly sacred, holy and saint are being presented on a common level. Perhaps you have a more extensive version of Strong's than I have access to. If anything, the definition there is defining "saint" as sacred and/or holy.
From ἅγος hagos (an awful thing) compare G53, [H2282]; sacred (physically pure, morally blameless
or religious, ceremonially consecrated): - (most) holy (one, thing), saint.
or means two different usages
: Buster D Body Crab Sat Apr 18, 2015 - 22:03:13
In fairness to the other member who was asked to credit the source for their copy and paste of articles shared here, please do the same with your work. Starting with page 1 and the OP and all other materials you shared here.
Per rule 4.1c
Thanks.
: winsome Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 08:57:22
Catholic belief:
All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. (CCC 1030)
The basic argument for Purgatory is as follows:
1. God is holy and perfect, and He tells us to be holy and perfect as he is holy and perfect.
"...but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy." (1Pet 1:15-16)
"You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."(Mt 5:48)
2. Unless we are clean (holy and perfect) we will not enter heaven for a life of communion with God.
"But nothing unclean will enter it" [The new Jerusalem – Heaven] (Rev 21:27)
3. Unless we are holy we will not see God.
"Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord" (Heb 12;14)
4. When we are initially justified (I believe by baptism) God makes us holy and perfect.
"When the goodness and loving kindness of God our Saviour appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Saviour, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life." (Ti 3:4-7)
5. But during our life we sin which disfigures and soils our souls and from which we need cleansing to restore us the holiness and perfection necessary to enter heaven. This is an ongoing process of sin, repentance, and cleansing.
"Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God." (2Cor 7:1)
6. If we are not wholly clean, holy and perfect there must be some process whereby we can be cleansed and made holy and perfect. Scripture tells us there is:
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb 12:22-23)
This shows that there is a way, a process, whereby the spirits of just men are made perfect.
God in his mercy has provided a final purification process whereby we are made fit to enter his presence.
Catholics call this process Purgatory.
Purgatory
"early 13c., from M.L. purgatorium (St. Bernard, early 12c.), from L.L., "means of cleansing," prop. neut. of purgatorius (adj.) "purging, cleansing," from L. purgare (see purge)."
(Online Etymology Dictionary)
Protestantism.
According to Wikipedia many Protestants have a similar concept but call it Glorification.
"Glorification is the Protestant alternative to Purgatory, as it is "the means by which the elect receive perfection before entering into the kingdom of Heaven." According to the theologies of most major Protestant groups" (Wikipedia)
Judaism
Some claim that the concept of purgatory is pagan, but in fact it is rooted in Judaic beliefs.
The classic point on this as I'm sure you are aware in 2Macc 12:46 where Judas Maccabeus offers up prayers for the dead, thus indicating that there is some existence after dead that can be helped by prayers. I realise you probably do not accept this as scriptural, although it was accepted as such by all Christians for almost 1500 years. However it is evidence of a Jewish belief, and there is other evidence that this was a Jewish belief. They called it Gehoim.
"According to Judaism, the purifying process that a sullied soul undergoes to cleanse it from its spiritual uncleanliness is a temporary one, and is restorative in its intent, and not punitive, as many mistakenly believe. Ultimately, all Jews have portion in the World to Come, as do Righteous Gentiles, non-Jews who observe the Seven Noahide Commandments." (see this link http://www.chabad.org/library/articl...-teachings.htm (http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/512017/jewish/Is-there-any-sort-of-Purgatory-or-Satan-in-Jewish-teachings.htm))
Orthodox Jewish practices, which branched off from the Old Testament religion, to this day reflect belief in this "place" of final purification which they call Gehenom: when an Orthodox Jewish person dies, a ritual called the taharah is performed by the "Chevra kaddisha -- gmilat khessed shel emet," the "Holy Society" or "Burial Society" of Jews knowledgeable in these traditional duties. They cleanse and prepare the physical body and recite the required prayers (Chevra Kadisha) which ask God for forgiveness for any sins the departed may have committed, and beg Him to guard and grant eternal peace to the departed. For eleven months after the death of a loved one certain members of the family pray a prayer called the Mourner's Qaddish (or Kaddish) for their loved one's purification.
Even the The Talmud1 speaks of Purgatory: Sabbath 33b:
"The judgment of the wicked in purgatory is twelve months."
Rosh HaShanah 16b-17a:
"It has been taught that the school of Shammai says: "There will be three groups on Judgment Day (yom haDin):
(1) one that is completely righteous,
(2) one that is completely wicked,
(3) and one that is in between."
Rabbi Shammai (50 BC - AD 30), one of the two main teachers of early rabbinical Judaism, also is on record as having interpreted Zechariah 13:9 as referring to a state of purification after death. Isaiah 66:15-16 and Malachi 3:2-3 were also interpreted in rabbinic literature as referring to the purgatorial process.
To be continued...
Scripture quotes are from the RSV-CE. The other quotes are referenced.
Winsome I'm glad to see you and some of the others in the fight contending for your faith. Whether right or wrong, you will gain respect when you face the battle.
I believe if it's worth saying it's worth the fight to prove! I see you're trying to do that! Good for you!
Don't ever take my attacks on your faith as personal, just prove me wrong.
: winsome Sun Apr 19, 2015 - 05:46:34
: 4WD Sat Apr 18, 2015 - 06:41:13
G40
ἅγιος
hagios
hag'-ee-os
From ἅγος hagos (an awful thing) compare G53, [H2282]; sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated): - (most) holy (one, thing), saint.
Sorry winsome. There are not two distinct meanings given there as you have stated. Clearly sacred, holy and saint are being presented on a common level. Perhaps you have a more extensive version of Strong's than I have access to. If anything, the definition there is defining "saint" as sacred and/or holy.
From ἅγος hagos (an awful thing) compare G53, [H2282]; sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated): - (most) holy (one, thing), saint.
or means two different usages
Perhaps I am beginning to understand why you think about some things as you do. You said in Reply #179
But what is meant by holy in these quotations and what are their contexts?
If you look up the Strong for holy (G40) you will find two distinct meanings
1. sacred (physically pure, morally blameless)
2. religious, (ceremonially consecrated)
These correspond to the two type of holiness I gave in my definition:
1. Subjective holiness – "essentially by the possession of divine grace and morally by the practice of virtue"
2. Objective holiness – "in creatures denotes their exclusive consecration to the service of God".
But that is not what Strong's says. It says there are three meanings for the Greek
hagios; They are "sacred", "holy" and "saint". It further parenthetically subcategorizes or defines sacred as "physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated". It does not give two distinct meanings as sacred and religious. The religious is simply subset of sacred. The "or" is a connective conjunction between morally blameless and religious, not between sacred and religious.
You could dig a little deeper into this with Vines dictionary for the use of holy in both the OT and the NT as it applies to God's people.
In the OT we have from Vines the Hebrew counterpart in
qadosh - holy.
God has dedicated Israel as His people. They are "holy" by their relationship to the "holy" God. All of the people are in a sense "holy," as members of the covenant community, irrespective of their faith and obedience: "And they gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said unto them, Ye take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the Lord is among them: wherefore then lift ye up yourselves above the congregation of the Lord?" (Num_16:3). God's intent was to use this "holy" nation as a "holy," royal priesthood amongst the nations (Exo_19:6). Based on the intimate nature of the relationship, God expected His people to live up to His "holy" expectations and, thus, to demonstrate that they were a "holy nation": "And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the Lord am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine" (Lev_20:26).
And in the NT we have from Vines for holy.
(b) It is used of men and things (see below) in so far as they are devoted to God. Indeed the quality, as attributed to God, is often presented in a way which involves divine demands upon the conduct of believers. These are called hagioi, "saints," i.e., "sanctified" or "holy" ones.
This sainthood is not an attainment, it is a state into which God in grace calls men; yet believers are called to sanctify themselves (consistently with their calling, 2Ti_1:9), cleansing themselves from all defilement, forsaking sin, living a "holy" manner of life, 1Pe_1:15; 2Pe_3:11, and experiencing fellowship with God in His holiness. The saints are thus figuratively spoken of as "a holy temple", 1Co_3:17 (a local church); Eph_2:21 (the whole Church), cp. Eph_5:27; "a holy priesthood," 1Pe_2:5; "a holy nation," 1Pe_2:9.
Do with that as you wish.
You asked, "Where does God call us holy?" I think I have answered your question.
: winsome Sun Apr 19, 2015 - 05:50:05
Scripture quotes are from the RSV-CE. The other quotes are referenced.
Thank you for your edit. ::smile::
: 4WD Sun Apr 19, 2015 - 07:00:44
: winsome Sun Apr 19, 2015 - 05:46:34
: 4WD Sat Apr 18, 2015 - 06:41:13
G40
ἅγιος
hagios
hag'-ee-os
From ἅγος hagos (an awful thing) compare G53, [H2282]; sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated): - (most) holy (one, thing), saint.
Sorry winsome. There are not two distinct meanings given there as you have stated. Clearly sacred, holy and saint are being presented on a common level. Perhaps you have a more extensive version of Strong's than I have access to. If anything, the definition there is defining "saint" as sacred and/or holy.
From ἅγος hagos (an awful thing) compare G53, [H2282]; sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated): - (most) holy (one, thing), saint.
or means two different usages
Perhaps I am beginning to understand why you think about some things as you do. You said in Reply #179
But what is meant by holy in these quotations and what are their contexts?
If you look up the Strong for holy (G40) you will find two distinct meanings
1. sacred (physically pure, morally blameless)
2. religious, (ceremonially consecrated)
These correspond to the two type of holiness I gave in my definition:
1. Subjective holiness – "essentially by the possession of divine grace and morally by the practice of virtue"
2. Objective holiness – "in creatures denotes their exclusive consecration to the service of God".
But that is not what Strong's says. It says there are three meanings for the Greek hagios; They are "sacred", "holy" and "saint". It further parenthetically subcategorizes or defines sacred as "physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated". It does not give two distinct meanings as sacred and religious. The religious is simply subset of sacred. The "or" is a connective conjunction between morally blameless and religious, not between sacred and religious.
You could dig a little deeper into this with Vines dictionary for the use of holy in both the OT and the NT as it applies to God's people.
In the OT we have from Vines the Hebrew counterpart in qadosh - holy.
God has dedicated Israel as His people. They are "holy" by their relationship to the "holy" God. All of the people are in a sense "holy," as members of the covenant community, irrespective of their faith and obedience: "And they gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said unto them, Ye take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the Lord is among them: wherefore then lift ye up yourselves above the congregation of the Lord?" (Num_16:3). God's intent was to use this "holy" nation as a "holy," royal priesthood amongst the nations (Exo_19:6). Based on the intimate nature of the relationship, God expected His people to live up to His "holy" expectations and, thus, to demonstrate that they were a "holy nation": "And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the Lord am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine" (Lev_20:26).
And in the NT we have from Vines for holy.
(b) It is used of men and things (see below) in so far as they are devoted to God. Indeed the quality, as attributed to God, is often presented in a way which involves divine demands upon the conduct of believers. These are called hagioi, "saints," i.e., "sanctified" or "holy" ones.
This sainthood is not an attainment, it is a state into which God in grace calls men; yet believers are called to sanctify themselves (consistently with their calling, 2Ti_1:9), cleansing themselves from all defilement, forsaking sin, living a "holy" manner of life, 1Pe_1:15; 2Pe_3:11, and experiencing fellowship with God in His holiness. The saints are thus figuratively spoken of as "a holy temple", 1Co_3:17 (a local church); Eph_2:21 (the whole Church), cp. Eph_5:27; "a holy priesthood," 1Pe_2:5; "a holy nation," 1Pe_2:9.
Do with that as you wish.
You asked, "Where does God call us holy?" I think I have answered your question.
Concise Oxford English Dictionaryor
conjunction
1 used to link
alternatives.
Dictionary definitions of holy
Mirriam-Webster1
: exalted or worthy of complete devotion as one perfect in goodness and righteousness
2
: divine (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/divine) <for the Lord our God is
holy — Psalms 99:9(Authorized Version)>
3
: devoted entirely to the deity or the work of the deity <a
holy temple> <
holy prophets>
Concise Oxford English Dictionary1 dedicated to God or a religious purpose.
2 morally and spiritually excellent.
Collins Concise Dictionary1. of or associated with God
2. endowed or invested with extreme purity
3. devout or virtuous
Strong
sacred (physically pure, morally blameless
or religious, ceremonially consecrated)
physically pure, morally blameless is subjective
orreligious, ceremonially consecrated is objective
As per the definition I originally gave
1. Subjective holiness – "essentially by the possession of divine grace and morally by the practice of virtue"
2. Objective holiness – "in creatures denotes their exclusive consecration to the service of God".
winsome,
As per the definition I originally gave
1. Subjective holiness – "essentially by the possession of divine grace and morally by the practice of virtue"
2. Objective holiness – "in creatures denotes their exclusive consecration to the service of God".
You are giving the differing aspects of stong's definition of "sacred", not differing aspects of "holy". Sacred and Holy are two different meanings attached to "hagios". The third meaning is saint. The word "saint" is one of those words introduced from the Latin into the language by the RCC long after the NT was written; how long after I am not sure.
But it doesn't matter. Even your attempt to diminish the meaning you have nevertheless left it as holiness, i.e., holy. And that is what you asked and what I answered.
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 17:46:17
"If he is a Christian, then he is/was in Christ". So from your post I take it that you believe that a person who becomes a Christian can sin with impunity? Or if he does, then he was not a Christian in the first place, right? What about a person who does really well for a while and then "returns to his sin like a dog to his own vomit"? This can happen to anyone. They weren't a Christian in the first place then right?
What a horrible cycle that becomes. To deny the truth, that Christians can return to abject sin through their own will. Tell me you believe something else.
If you think about the above scenario, then no Christian can know whether he is in Christ or not at any particular time, because in the future he is fully capable of returning to a sinful life. He might, or he might not. If he does, then he has to believe that he was never a Christian in the first place. But then once he "becomes one (again)" he doesn't know for sure if he is this time or not.
Once we admit that we sin and know the truth about sins through which, through an act of our own will, "cut us off from the vine", then we can get past the trap above. And those sins are "mortal sins", referred to in the Bible (1 John 5:16-17) as "deadly sins". Those people in mortal sin were once "in Christ Jesus" but are no more "in Christ Jesus".
Thereby your verse which refers to people "in Christ Jesus" refers to those who have not cut themselves off from the throne of grace. And for them, even with venial sin on their soul, there is "no condemnation".
...
you're making things by saying Christians think they can sin with impunity. Obviously, you don't understand it... I've yet to see a Christian on here say that they can do that. What they might say is 'if they do sin, they will be forgiven' - of course, after they repent.
I think the Catholic 'cycle' is nuts. Good for the priests tho, maybe they get a bonus for each confession they hear nowadays? We'd all need a personal priest at our side 24/7. but no! I can repent and ask forgiveness as I walk to my car (for being mean to my dog by not giving her 2 cookies... I'd use my 'kids' in this - but they've been long gone). Or as I leave the store cause I grouched at the clerk etc. or as I'm driving home... honestly, none of the above would keep me out of heaven you know. I can do a one for all prayer at the end of the day. I might have to step it up if I rob someone, or stab someone. Unless self defense, there's little chance of that last one happening tho.
and yes, Christians CAN know they are in Christ if they are faithful to Him, keep in His word, not believing false doctrine, praying to Him and praising Him etc. I've never doubted it since I was saved decades ago.
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 17:53:30
: kensington Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 17:24:41
There is no purgatory. Not that I can find in the Bible.
My Catholic Encyclopedia says that it is a "Eschatological idea." not proven in Scripture but decided on by some men based on how they read a scripture.
Its importance is it's theological significance, and NOT it's factual existence. (C. Encyclopedia page 502, under purgatory)
It cannot be proven real even by Catholics who believe in it. But, it was formed in the mind of men based on what they thought at the Council of Trent.
Where they were most likely drunk if you ask me.
If there is grace there is no place for Purgatory. If there is Purgatory, there is no place for grace. You cannot have it both ways, Jesus Blood covering is enough or it isn't. It's called "Faith".
An "eschatological idea" huh? That one I haven't heard before. Interesting, can you give me the ISBN of your Catholic Encyclopedia? Or the Title, Publication date, or a link on Amazon?
Rather than saying "It cannot be proven real even by Catholics" you might try reading winsome's original posts and perhaps respond to that.
"Most likely drunk" is what they said of the apostles on the day of Pentecost, of Hannah when she was praying to God. And Jesus was called a drunkard. So we thank you for that compliment.
Purgatory is grace indeed. What grace is not is "unmerited favor".
I'd like to think I'm reading that incorrectly, but don't think I am...
Lexicon :: Strong's G5485 - charis
χάρις From χαίρω (G5463)
grace
that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness: grace of speech
good will, loving-kindness, favour of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues
what is due to grace
the spiritual condition of one governed by the power of divine grace
the token or proof of grace, benefit
a gift of grace
benefit, bounty
thanks, (for benefits, services, favours), recompense, reward
Thayer's Greek Lexicon -
for 'grace' as used in Rom 3:24
NT writers use
xapis pre-eminently of that kindness by which
God bestows favor on even those who are ill deserving and grants to sinners the pardon of their offenses and bids them accept of eternal salvation thru Christ.
: winsome Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 12:16:31
Some more scriptures:
And
"But he gives more grace; therefore it says, 'God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.' Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. Draw near to God and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you men of double mind. Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to dejection. Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will exalt you." (Jas 4:6-10)
It is God's mercy to give us the opportunity to purify our hearts if we have not fully done so on this earth.
I cut down your post winsome to just the verses I want to address -
'purify your hearts' - James isn't talking to Christians here. Read more than the verse or verses you plan to use to support a belief. Catholics almost always take them out of context. As I read thru your posts I think all of them were like this. Many here could have addressed them rather easily - it just gets old, time after time. And from what I can tell from reply posts and future posts, Catholics don't learn... they just keep doing it. There's more to SS than just reading a verse and guessing what it says or means.
look up the words like 'purify' - in this case it's about morally purifying. Of course, their hearts need 'purified' -
they're unbelievers. Their hearts will be purified when they accept Christ as Lord and Savior.
This is no different than what I usually find when I look up a verse(s) that a Catholic gives in support of one of their beliefs. I've yet (and it's been yrs now - decades really) to find 1 that means what they think it does or in any way supports the belief they think it supports.
The 1 Cor 3 verses are the same. They are about the testing of our works (those of a believer). The results of this testing determines rewards, not salvation or the timing of entrance to heaven.
: skeeter Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 11:56:47
: winsome Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 12:16:31
Some more scriptures:
And
"But he gives more grace; therefore it says, 'God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.' Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. Draw near to God and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you men of double mind. Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to dejection. Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will exalt you." (Jas 4:6-10)
It is God's mercy to give us the opportunity to purify our hearts if we have not fully done so on this earth.
I cut down your post winsome to just the verses I want to address -
'purify your hearts' - James isn't talking to Christians here. Read more than the verse or verses you plan to use to support a belief. Catholics almost always take them out of context. As I read thru your posts I think all of them were like this. Many here could have addressed them rather easily - it just gets old, time after time. And from what I can tell from reply posts and future posts, Catholics don't learn... they just keep doing it. There's more to SS than just reading a verse and guessing what it says or means.
look up the words like 'purify' - in this case it's about morally purifying. Of course, their hearts need 'purified' - they're unbelievers. Their hearts will be purified when they accept Christ as Lord and Savior.
This is no different than what I usually find when I look up a verse(s) that a Catholic gives in support of one of their beliefs. I've yet (and it's been yrs now - decades really) to find 1 that means what they think it does or in any way supports the belief they think it supports.
The 1 Cor 3 verses are the same. They are about the testing of our works (those of a believer). The results of this testing determines rewards, not salvation or the timing of entrance to heaven.
James is writing to Christians. he addresses them as my brothers (1:2, 1:16, 1:19, 2:1, 2:5, 2;14, 3:1, 3:10, 3:12, 4:11, 5:7, 5:9, 5:10. 5:12, 5:19)
Nowhere does he say they will be purifed when they accept Christ as Lord and Saviour.
: winsome Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 12:24:32
: skeeter Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 11:56:47
: winsome Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 12:16:31
Some more scriptures:
And
"But he gives more grace; therefore it says, 'God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.' Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. Draw near to God and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you men of double mind. Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to dejection. Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will exalt you." (Jas 4:6-10)
It is God's mercy to give us the opportunity to purify our hearts if we have not fully done so on this earth.
I cut down your post winsome to just the verses I want to address -
'purify your hearts' - James isn't talking to Christians here. Read more than the verse or verses you plan to use to support a belief. Catholics almost always take them out of context. As I read thru your posts I think all of them were like this. Many here could have addressed them rather easily - it just gets old, time after time. And from what I can tell from reply posts and future posts, Catholics don't learn... they just keep doing it. There's more to SS than just reading a verse and guessing what it says or means.
look up the words like 'purify' - in this case it's about morally purifying. Of course, their hearts need 'purified' - they're unbelievers. Their hearts will be purified when they accept Christ as Lord and Savior.
This is no different than what I usually find when I look up a verse(s) that a Catholic gives in support of one of their beliefs. I've yet (and it's been yrs now - decades really) to find 1 that means what they think it does or in any way supports the belief they think it supports.
The 1 Cor 3 verses are the same. They are about the testing of our works (those of a believer). The results of this testing determines rewards, not salvation or the timing of entrance to heaven.
James is writing to Christians. he addresses them as my brothers (1:2, 1:16, 1:19, 2:1, 2:5, 2;14, 3:1, 3:10, 3:12, 4:11, 5:7, 5:9, 5:10. 5:12, 5:19)
Nowhere does he say they will be purifed when they accept Christ as Lord and Saviour.
If you think they are 'believers', then they are like so many who deceive and claim the Christian label but do not know Him. OTOH, James is a Jew teaching other Jews. The change over from the Jewish ways takes time (you find that even with the Apostles). And IIRC, Paul also calls some Jews 'brother' or 'brethren' - they are 'fellow Jews'.
The circumcision of the heart - have you heard of that?
That happens when one is saved. And no, they don't say those exact words every few verses... what does the NT say about the change of one's heart?
Misunderstanding James also often shows up when people read/quote his teaching on 'faith without works'...
: skeeter Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 13:56:53
: winsome Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 12:24:32
: skeeter Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 11:56:47
: winsome Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 12:16:31
Some more scriptures:
And
"But he gives more grace; therefore it says, 'God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.' Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. Draw near to God and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you men of double mind. Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to dejection. Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will exalt you." (Jas 4:6-10)
It is God's mercy to give us the opportunity to purify our hearts if we have not fully done so on this earth.
I cut down your post winsome to just the verses I want to address -
'purify your hearts' - James isn't talking to Christians here. Read more than the verse or verses you plan to use to support a belief. Catholics almost always take them out of context. As I read thru your posts I think all of them were like this. Many here could have addressed them rather easily - it just gets old, time after time. And from what I can tell from reply posts and future posts, Catholics don't learn... they just keep doing it. There's more to SS than just reading a verse and guessing what it says or means.
look up the words like 'purify' - in this case it's about morally purifying. Of course, their hearts need 'purified' - they're unbelievers. Their hearts will be purified when they accept Christ as Lord and Savior.
This is no different than what I usually find when I look up a verse(s) that a Catholic gives in support of one of their beliefs. I've yet (and it's been yrs now - decades really) to find 1 that means what they think it does or in any way supports the belief they think it supports.
The 1 Cor 3 verses are the same. They are about the testing of our works (those of a believer). The results of this testing determines rewards, not salvation or the timing of entrance to heaven.
James is writing to Christians. he addresses them as my brothers (1:2, 1:16, 1:19, 2:1, 2:5, 2;14, 3:1, 3:10, 3:12, 4:11, 5:7, 5:9, 5:10. 5:12, 5:19)
Nowhere does he say they will be purifed when they accept Christ as Lord and Saviour.
If you think they are 'believers', then they are like so many who deceive and claim the Christian label but do not know Him. OTOH, James is a Jew teaching other Jews. The change over from the Jewish ways takes time (you find that even with the Apostles). And IIRC, Paul also calls some Jews 'brother' or 'brethren' - they are 'fellow Jews'.
The circumcision of the heart - have you heard of that? That happens when one is saved. And no, they don't say those exact words every few verses... what does the NT say about the change of one's heart?
Misunderstanding James also often shows up when people read/quote his teaching on 'faith without works'...
James is a Jewish Christian writing to other Jewish Christians.
If James is writing to non Christian Jews and addressing them as brothers then explain:
But above all,
my brothers, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath, but let your "Yes" mean "Yes" and your "No" mean "No," that you may not incur condemnation.Is anyone among you suffering? He should pray. Is anyone in good spirits? He should sing praise.
Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the
name of the Lord, and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and
the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven. (Jas 5:12-15)
Your problem is that you have this false theory that Christians can't sin so that if anyone sins they cannot be a Christian. James shows otherwise. No wonder Martin Luther didn't like it and wanted to eject it from the canon.
: winsome Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 14:39:18
: skeeter Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 13:56:53
: winsome Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 12:24:32
: skeeter Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 11:56:47
: winsome Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 12:16:31
Some more scriptures:
And
"But he gives more grace; therefore it says, 'God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.' Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. Draw near to God and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you men of double mind. Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to dejection. Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will exalt you." (Jas 4:6-10)
It is God's mercy to give us the opportunity to purify our hearts if we have not fully done so on this earth.
I cut down your post winsome to just the verses I want to address -
'purify your hearts' - James isn't talking to Christians here. Read more than the verse or verses you plan to use to support a belief. Catholics almost always take them out of context. As I read thru your posts I think all of them were like this. Many here could have addressed them rather easily - it just gets old, time after time. And from what I can tell from reply posts and future posts, Catholics don't learn... they just keep doing it. There's more to SS than just reading a verse and guessing what it says or means.
look up the words like 'purify' - in this case it's about morally purifying. Of course, their hearts need 'purified' - they're unbelievers. Their hearts will be purified when they accept Christ as Lord and Savior.
This is no different than what I usually find when I look up a verse(s) that a Catholic gives in support of one of their beliefs. I've yet (and it's been yrs now - decades really) to find 1 that means what they think it does or in any way supports the belief they think it supports.
The 1 Cor 3 verses are the same. They are about the testing of our works (those of a believer). The results of this testing determines rewards, not salvation or the timing of entrance to heaven.
James is writing to Christians. he addresses them as my brothers (1:2, 1:16, 1:19, 2:1, 2:5, 2;14, 3:1, 3:10, 3:12, 4:11, 5:7, 5:9, 5:10. 5:12, 5:19)
Nowhere does he say they will be purifed when they accept Christ as Lord and Saviour.
If you think they are 'believers', then they are like so many who deceive and claim the Christian label but do not know Him. OTOH, James is a Jew teaching other Jews. The change over from the Jewish ways takes time (you find that even with the Apostles). And IIRC, Paul also calls some Jews 'brother' or 'brethren' - they are 'fellow Jews'.
The circumcision of the heart - have you heard of that? That happens when one is saved. And no, they don't say those exact words every few verses... what does the NT say about the change of one's heart?
Misunderstanding James also often shows up when people read/quote his teaching on 'faith without works'...
James is a Jewish Christian writing to other Jewish Christians.
If James is writing to non Christian Jews and addressing them as brothers then explain:
But above all, my brothers, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath, but let your "Yes" mean "Yes" and your "No" mean "No," that you may not incur condemnation.Is anyone among you suffering? He should pray. Is anyone in good spirits? He should sing praise. Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord, and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven. (Jas 5:12-15)
Your problem is that you have this false theory that Christians can't sin so that if anyone sins they cannot be a Christian. James shows otherwise. No wonder Martin Luther didn't like it and wanted to eject it from the canon.
sorry winsome - the blue above that you posted is what I'm reading on here from Catholics - that we need to be perfect (their definition of it). Didn't I read something about not sinning posted by Adamski on here? and on other RC forums the Catholics are stating this...
as for Luther, you'll have to take that to someone who follows him, I don't.
what did you think James would be teaching people? about paganism? how to follow the old laws?
: skeeter Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 15:25:24
: winsome Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 14:39:18
: skeeter Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 13:56:53
: winsome Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 12:24:32
: skeeter Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 11:56:47
: winsome Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 12:16:31
Some more scriptures:
And
"But he gives more grace; therefore it says, 'God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.' Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. Draw near to God and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you men of double mind. Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to dejection. Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will exalt you." (Jas 4:6-10)
It is God's mercy to give us the opportunity to purify our hearts if we have not fully done so on this earth.
I cut down your post winsome to just the verses I want to address -
'purify your hearts' - James isn't talking to Christians here. Read more than the verse or verses you plan to use to support a belief. Catholics almost always take them out of context. As I read thru your posts I think all of them were like this. Many here could have addressed them rather easily - it just gets old, time after time. And from what I can tell from reply posts and future posts, Catholics don't learn... they just keep doing it. There's more to SS than just reading a verse and guessing what it says or means.
look up the words like 'purify' - in this case it's about morally purifying. Of course, their hearts need 'purified' - they're unbelievers. Their hearts will be purified when they accept Christ as Lord and Savior.
This is no different than what I usually find when I look up a verse(s) that a Catholic gives in support of one of their beliefs. I've yet (and it's been yrs now - decades really) to find 1 that means what they think it does or in any way supports the belief they think it supports.
The 1 Cor 3 verses are the same. They are about the testing of our works (those of a believer). The results of this testing determines rewards, not salvation or the timing of entrance to heaven.
James is writing to Christians. he addresses them as my brothers (1:2, 1:16, 1:19, 2:1, 2:5, 2;14, 3:1, 3:10, 3:12, 4:11, 5:7, 5:9, 5:10. 5:12, 5:19)
Nowhere does he say they will be purifed when they accept Christ as Lord and Saviour.
If you think they are 'believers', then they are like so many who deceive and claim the Christian label but do not know Him. OTOH, James is a Jew teaching other Jews. The change over from the Jewish ways takes time (you find that even with the Apostles). And IIRC, Paul also calls some Jews 'brother' or 'brethren' - they are 'fellow Jews'.
The circumcision of the heart - have you heard of that? That happens when one is saved. And no, they don't say those exact words every few verses... what does the NT say about the change of one's heart?
Misunderstanding James also often shows up when people read/quote his teaching on 'faith without works'...
James is a Jewish Christian writing to other Jewish Christians.
If James is writing to non Christian Jews and addressing them as brothers then explain:
But above all, my brothers, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath, but let your "Yes" mean "Yes" and your "No" mean "No," that you may not incur condemnation.Is anyone among you suffering? He should pray. Is anyone in good spirits? He should sing praise. Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord, and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven. (Jas 5:12-15)
Your problem is that you have this false theory that Christians can't sin so that if anyone sins they cannot be a Christian. James shows otherwise. No wonder Martin Luther didn't like it and wanted to eject it from the canon.
sorry winsome - the blue above that you posted is what I'm reading on here from Catholics - that we need to be perfect (their definition of it). Didn't I read something about not sinning posted by Adamski on here? and on other RC forums the Catholics are stating this...
as for Luther, you'll have to take that to someone who follows him, I don't.
what did you think James would be teaching people? about paganism? how to follow the old laws?
I don't know what you are referring to about Adamski.
But as I said - James is writing to Jewish Christians and he is clearly saying that we need to be purified.
"Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you men of double mind. Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to dejection. Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will exalt you."
: winsome Sun Apr 26, 2015 - 05:49:16
: skeeter Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 15:25:24
: winsome Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 14:39:18
: skeeter Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 15:25:24
If you think they are 'believers', then they are like so many who deceive and claim the Christian label but do not know Him. OTOH, James is a Jew teaching other Jews. The change over from the Jewish ways takes time (you find that even with the Apostles). And IIRC, Paul also calls some Jews 'brother' or 'brethren' - they are 'fellow Jews'.
The circumcision of the heart - have you heard of that? That happens when one is saved. And no, they don't say those exact words every few verses... what does the NT say about the change of one's heart?
Misunderstanding James also often shows up when people read/quote his teaching on 'faith without works'...
James is a Jewish Christian writing to other Jewish Christians.
If James is writing to non Christian Jews and addressing them as brothers then explain:
But above all, my brothers, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath, but let your "Yes" mean "Yes" and your "No" mean "No," that you may not incur condemnation.Is anyone among you suffering? He should pray. Is anyone in good spirits? He should sing praise. Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord, and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven. (Jas 5:12-15)
Your problem is that you have this false theory that Christians can't sin so that if anyone sins they cannot be a Christian. James shows otherwise. No wonder Martin Luther didn't like it and wanted to eject it from the canon.
sorry winsome - the blue above that you posted is what I'm reading on here from Catholics - that we need to be perfect (their definition of it). Didn't I read something about not sinning posted by Adamski on here? and on other RC forums the Catholics are stating this...
as for Luther, you'll have to take that to someone who follows him, I don't.
what did you think James would be teaching people? about paganism? how to follow the old laws?
I don't know what you are referring to about Adamski.
But as I said - James is writing to Jewish Christians and he is clearly saying that we need to be purified.
"Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you men of double mind. Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to dejection. Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will exalt you."
If I am wrong about it being Adamski, then I apologize to Adamski for that.
It is Catholics (and some others) who think we can
ever on this earth be as perfect (using their definition) as Christ.
: skeeter Sun Apr 26, 2015 - 16:13:38
It is Catholics (and some others) who think we can ever on this earth be as perfect (using their definition) as Christ.
That doesn't make sense.
: winsome Sun Apr 26, 2015 - 16:24:15
: skeeter Sun Apr 26, 2015 - 16:13:38
It is Catholics (and some others) who think we can ever on this earth be as perfect (using their definition) as Christ.
That doesn't make sense.
? ? ? what doesn't make sense?
: skeeter Sun Apr 26, 2015 - 23:18:03
: winsome Sun Apr 26, 2015 - 16:24:15
: skeeter Sun Apr 26, 2015 - 16:13:38
It is Catholics (and some others) who think we can ever on this earth be as perfect (using their definition) as Christ.
That doesn't make sense.
? ? ? what doesn't make sense?
I think it was the way I was reading it.
Then do think that we cannot be as perfect as Christ on this earth?
: skeeter Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 03:18:11
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 17:53:30
: kensington Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 17:24:41
There is no purgatory. Not that I can find in the Bible.
My Catholic Encyclopedia says that it is a "Eschatological idea." not proven in Scripture but decided on by some men based on how they read a scripture.
Its importance is it's theological significance, and NOT it's factual existence. (C. Encyclopedia page 502, under purgatory)
It cannot be proven real even by Catholics who believe in it. But, it was formed in the mind of men based on what they thought at the Council of Trent.
Where they were most likely drunk if you ask me.
If there is grace there is no place for Purgatory. If there is Purgatory, there is no place for grace. You cannot have it both ways, Jesus Blood covering is enough or it isn't. It's called "Faith".
An "eschatological idea" huh? That one I haven't heard before. Interesting, can you give me the ISBN of your Catholic Encyclopedia? Or the Title, Publication date, or a link on Amazon?
Rather than saying "It cannot be proven real even by Catholics" you might try reading winsome's original posts and perhaps respond to that.
"Most likely drunk" is what they said of the apostles on the day of Pentecost, of Hannah when she was praying to God. And Jesus was called a drunkard. So we thank you for that compliment.
Purgatory is grace indeed. What grace is not is "unmerited favor".
I'd like to think I'm reading that incorrectly, but don't think I am...
Lexicon :: Strong's G5485 - charis
χάρις From χαίρω (G5463)
grace
that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness: grace of speech
good will, loving-kindness, favour of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues
what is due to grace
the spiritual condition of one governed by the power of divine grace
the token or proof of grace, benefit
a gift of grace
benefit, bounty
thanks, (for benefits, services, favours), recompense, reward
Thayer's Greek Lexicon - for 'grace' as used in Rom 3:24
NT writers use xapis pre-eminently of that kindness by which God bestows favor on even those who are ill deserving and grants to sinners the pardon of their offenses and bids them accept of eternal salvation thru Christ.
Strong and Thayer were Protestants. I would expect no less.
The truth is, in the Bible it doesn't make sense for grace to mean exclusively unmerited favor. You can tell by attempting to replace the words "unmerited favor" everywhere the word "grace" is used.
Perhaps you believe that Jesus Christ "grew in unmerited favor"? Luke 2:52. Unmerited, my foot.
: skeeter Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 01:55:19
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 17:46:17
"If he is a Christian, then he is/was in Christ". So from your post I take it that you believe that a person who becomes a Christian can sin with impunity? Or if he does, then he was not a Christian in the first place, right? What about a person who does really well for a while and then "returns to his sin like a dog to his own vomit"? This can happen to anyone. They weren't a Christian in the first place then right?
What a horrible cycle that becomes. To deny the truth, that Christians can return to abject sin through their own will. Tell me you believe something else.
If you think about the above scenario, then no Christian can know whether he is in Christ or not at any particular time, because in the future he is fully capable of returning to a sinful life. He might, or he might not. If he does, then he has to believe that he was never a Christian in the first place. But then once he "becomes one (again)" he doesn't know for sure if he is this time or not.
Once we admit that we sin and know the truth about sins through which, through an act of our own will, "cut us off from the vine", then we can get past the trap above. And those sins are "mortal sins", referred to in the Bible (1 John 5:16-17) as "deadly sins". Those people in mortal sin were once "in Christ Jesus" but are no more "in Christ Jesus".
Thereby your verse which refers to people "in Christ Jesus" refers to those who have not cut themselves off from the throne of grace. And for them, even with venial sin on their soul, there is "no condemnation".
...
you're making things by saying Christians think they can sin with impunity. Obviously, you don't understand it... I've yet to see a Christian on here say that they can do that. What they might say is 'if they do sin, they will be forgiven' - of course, after they repent.
My whole question revolves around, what happens if a Christian does NOT repent, and then they die?
Yes we will be forgiven when we repent. But what if there are sins we have from which we don't repent?
If those sins are still forgiven, then repentance is not necessary. If those sins are not forgiven, then there are two options: the Christian goes to hell OR through the mercy of God, the Christian is still saved, though necessary reparation/atonement for those sins is made.
If one believes in only heaven and hell, then the only place for atonement to be made is in heaven. But it seems that, after Jesus' model, atonement is made through his suffering (by his stripes we were healed). But there is no suffering in heaven. So thereby in purgatory we take part in his suffering for the sins from which we can still be saved with on our soul (sins that are not deadly) but have not repented from.
Every sin we commit we deserve hell. So to commit even the smallest sin and not repent, that is what we deserve. But, as many people have pointed out, Jesus is not simply waiting for us to screw up to send us to hell. That is why venial (non-deadly) sins mean that the sinner doesn't choose hell, but also are indications of his imperfections. Purgatory exists to make the imperfect Christian perfect so that he can be ready for heaven.
: Catholica Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 09:55:24
: skeeter Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 01:55:19
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 17:46:17
"If he is a Christian, then he is/was in Christ". So from your post I take it that you believe that a person who becomes a Christian can sin with impunity? Or if he does, then he was not a Christian in the first place, right? What about a person who does really well for a while and then "returns to his sin like a dog to his own vomit"? This can happen to anyone. They weren't a Christian in the first place then right?
What a horrible cycle that becomes. To deny the truth, that Christians can return to abject sin through their own will. Tell me you believe something else.
If you think about the above scenario, then no Christian can know whether he is in Christ or not at any particular time, because in the future he is fully capable of returning to a sinful life. He might, or he might not. If he does, then he has to believe that he was never a Christian in the first place. But then once he "becomes one (again)" he doesn't know for sure if he is this time or not.
Once we admit that we sin and know the truth about sins through which, through an act of our own will, "cut us off from the vine", then we can get past the trap above. And those sins are "mortal sins", referred to in the Bible (1 John 5:16-17) as "deadly sins". Those people in mortal sin were once "in Christ Jesus" but are no more "in Christ Jesus".
Thereby your verse which refers to people "in Christ Jesus" refers to those who have not cut themselves off from the throne of grace. And for them, even with venial sin on their soul, there is "no condemnation".
...
you're making things by saying Christians think they can sin with impunity. Obviously, you don't understand it... I've yet to see a Christian on here say that they can do that. What they might say is 'if they do sin, they will be forgiven' - of course, after they repent.
My whole question revolves around, what happens if a Christian does NOT repent, and then they die?
Yes we will be forgiven when we repent. But what if there are sins we have from which we don't repent?
If those sins are still forgiven, then repentance is not necessary. If those sins are not forgiven, then there are two options: the Christian goes to hell OR through the mercy of God, the Christian is still saved, though necessary reparation/atonement for those sins is made.
If one believes in only heaven and hell, then the only place for atonement to be made is in heaven. But it seems that, after Jesus' model, atonement is made through his suffering (by his stripes we were healed). But there is no suffering in heaven. So thereby in purgatory we take part in his suffering for the sins from which we can still be saved with on our soul (sins that are not deadly) but have not repented from.
Every sin we commit we deserve hell. So to commit even the smallest sin and not repent, that is what we deserve. But, as many people have pointed out, Jesus is not simply waiting for us to screw up to send us to hell. That is why venial (non-deadly) sins mean that the sinner doesn't choose hell, but also are indications of his imperfections. Purgatory exists to make the imperfect Christian perfect so that he can be ready for heaven.
What are deadly sins and non-deadly sins?
: doorknocker Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 10:39:23
: Catholica Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 09:55:24
: skeeter Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 01:55:19
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 17:46:17
"If he is a Christian, then he is/was in Christ". So from your post I take it that you believe that a person who becomes a Christian can sin with impunity? Or if he does, then he was not a Christian in the first place, right? What about a person who does really well for a while and then "returns to his sin like a dog to his own vomit"? This can happen to anyone. They weren't a Christian in the first place then right?
What a horrible cycle that becomes. To deny the truth, that Christians can return to abject sin through their own will. Tell me you believe something else.
If you think about the above scenario, then no Christian can know whether he is in Christ or not at any particular time, because in the future he is fully capable of returning to a sinful life. He might, or he might not. If he does, then he has to believe that he was never a Christian in the first place. But then once he "becomes one (again)" he doesn't know for sure if he is this time or not.
Once we admit that we sin and know the truth about sins through which, through an act of our own will, "cut us off from the vine", then we can get past the trap above. And those sins are "mortal sins", referred to in the Bible (1 John 5:16-17) as "deadly sins". Those people in mortal sin were once "in Christ Jesus" but are no more "in Christ Jesus".
Thereby your verse which refers to people "in Christ Jesus" refers to those who have not cut themselves off from the throne of grace. And for them, even with venial sin on their soul, there is "no condemnation".
...
you're making things by saying Christians think they can sin with impunity. Obviously, you don't understand it... I've yet to see a Christian on here say that they can do that. What they might say is 'if they do sin, they will be forgiven' - of course, after they repent.
My whole question revolves around, what happens if a Christian does NOT repent, and then they die?
Yes we will be forgiven when we repent. But what if there are sins we have from which we don't repent?
If those sins are still forgiven, then repentance is not necessary. If those sins are not forgiven, then there are two options: the Christian goes to hell OR through the mercy of God, the Christian is still saved, though necessary reparation/atonement for those sins is made.
If one believes in only heaven and hell, then the only place for atonement to be made is in heaven. But it seems that, after Jesus' model, atonement is made through his suffering (by his stripes we were healed). But there is no suffering in heaven. So thereby in purgatory we take part in his suffering for the sins from which we can still be saved with on our soul (sins that are not deadly) but have not repented from.
Every sin we commit we deserve hell. So to commit even the smallest sin and not repent, that is what we deserve. But, as many people have pointed out, Jesus is not simply waiting for us to screw up to send us to hell. That is why venial (non-deadly) sins mean that the sinner doesn't choose hell, but also are indications of his imperfections. Purgatory exists to make the imperfect Christian perfect so that he can be ready for heaven.
What are deadly sins and non-deadly sins?
1 John 5:16-17
If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.
In the Catholic Church we call them "mortal" (deadly) and "venial" (not deadly) sins. In committing a mortal sin the sinner in so-doing cuts himself off from eternal life unless he repents. In committing a venial sin, the sinner does not cut himself off from eternal life, though he should still repent, as progressive unrepented venial sins often lead to mortal sin. A person who dies with not deadly (venial) sin on his soul is still saved, but his bad works will be burned up as through fire, that is, in purgatory.
: Catholica Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 10:52:18
: doorknocker Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 10:39:23
: Catholica Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 09:55:24
: skeeter Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 01:55:19
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 17:46:17
"If he is a Christian, then he is/was in Christ". So from your post I take it that you believe that a person who becomes a Christian can sin with impunity? Or if he does, then he was not a Christian in the first place, right? What about a person who does really well for a while and then "returns to his sin like a dog to his own vomit"? This can happen to anyone. They weren't a Christian in the first place then right?
What a horrible cycle that becomes. To deny the truth, that Christians can return to abject sin through their own will. Tell me you believe something else.
If you think about the above scenario, then no Christian can know whether he is in Christ or not at any particular time, because in the future he is fully capable of returning to a sinful life. He might, or he might not. If he does, then he has to believe that he was never a Christian in the first place. But then once he "becomes one (again)" he doesn't know for sure if he is this time or not.
Once we admit that we sin and know the truth about sins through which, through an act of our own will, "cut us off from the vine", then we can get past the trap above. And those sins are "mortal sins", referred to in the Bible (1 John 5:16-17) as "deadly sins". Those people in mortal sin were once "in Christ Jesus" but are no more "in Christ Jesus".
Thereby your verse which refers to people "in Christ Jesus" refers to those who have not cut themselves off from the throne of grace. And for them, even with venial sin on their soul, there is "no condemnation".
...
you're making things by saying Christians think they can sin with impunity. Obviously, you don't understand it... I've yet to see a Christian on here say that they can do that. What they might say is 'if they do sin, they will be forgiven' - of course, after they repent.
My whole question revolves around, what happens if a Christian does NOT repent, and then they die?
Yes we will be forgiven when we repent. But what if there are sins we have from which we don't repent?
If those sins are still forgiven, then repentance is not necessary. If those sins are not forgiven, then there are two options: the Christian goes to hell OR through the mercy of God, the Christian is still saved, though necessary reparation/atonement for those sins is made.
If one believes in only heaven and hell, then the only place for atonement to be made is in heaven. But it seems that, after Jesus' model, atonement is made through his suffering (by his stripes we were healed). But there is no suffering in heaven. So thereby in purgatory we take part in his suffering for the sins from which we can still be saved with on our soul (sins that are not deadly) but have not repented from.
Every sin we commit we deserve hell. So to commit even the smallest sin and not repent, that is what we deserve. But, as many people have pointed out, Jesus is not simply waiting for us to screw up to send us to hell. That is why venial (non-deadly) sins mean that the sinner doesn't choose hell, but also are indications of his imperfections. Purgatory exists to make the imperfect Christian perfect so that he can be ready for heaven.
What are deadly sins and non-deadly sins?
1 John 5:16-17
If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.
In the Catholic Church we call them "mortal" (deadly) and "venial" (not deadly) sins. In committing a mortal sin the sinner in so-doing cuts himself off from eternal life unless he repents. In committing a venial sin, the sinner does not cut himself off from eternal life, though he should still repent, as progressive unrepented venial sins often lead to mortal sin. A person who dies with not deadly (venial) sin on his soul is still saved, but his bad works will be burned up as through fire, that is, in purgatory.
That really did not answer my question, can you give me a list of what deadly sins are please?
: doorknocker Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 11:04:07
: Catholica Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 10:52:18
: doorknocker Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 10:39:23
: Catholica Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 09:55:24
: skeeter Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 01:55:19
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 17:46:17
"If he is a Christian, then he is/was in Christ". So from your post I take it that you believe that a person who becomes a Christian can sin with impunity? Or if he does, then he was not a Christian in the first place, right? What about a person who does really well for a while and then "returns to his sin like a dog to his own vomit"? This can happen to anyone. They weren't a Christian in the first place then right?
What a horrible cycle that becomes. To deny the truth, that Christians can return to abject sin through their own will. Tell me you believe something else.
If you think about the above scenario, then no Christian can know whether he is in Christ or not at any particular time, because in the future he is fully capable of returning to a sinful life. He might, or he might not. If he does, then he has to believe that he was never a Christian in the first place. But then once he "becomes one (again)" he doesn't know for sure if he is this time or not.
Once we admit that we sin and know the truth about sins through which, through an act of our own will, "cut us off from the vine", then we can get past the trap above. And those sins are "mortal sins", referred to in the Bible (1 John 5:16-17) as "deadly sins". Those people in mortal sin were once "in Christ Jesus" but are no more "in Christ Jesus".
Thereby your verse which refers to people "in Christ Jesus" refers to those who have not cut themselves off from the throne of grace. And for them, even with venial sin on their soul, there is "no condemnation".
...
you're making things by saying Christians think they can sin with impunity. Obviously, you don't understand it... I've yet to see a Christian on here say that they can do that. What they might say is 'if they do sin, they will be forgiven' - of course, after they repent.
My whole question revolves around, what happens if a Christian does NOT repent, and then they die?
Yes we will be forgiven when we repent. But what if there are sins we have from which we don't repent?
If those sins are still forgiven, then repentance is not necessary. If those sins are not forgiven, then there are two options: the Christian goes to hell OR through the mercy of God, the Christian is still saved, though necessary reparation/atonement for those sins is made.
If one believes in only heaven and hell, then the only place for atonement to be made is in heaven. But it seems that, after Jesus' model, atonement is made through his suffering (by his stripes we were healed). But there is no suffering in heaven. So thereby in purgatory we take part in his suffering for the sins from which we can still be saved with on our soul (sins that are not deadly) but have not repented from.
Every sin we commit we deserve hell. So to commit even the smallest sin and not repent, that is what we deserve. But, as many people have pointed out, Jesus is not simply waiting for us to screw up to send us to hell. That is why venial (non-deadly) sins mean that the sinner doesn't choose hell, but also are indications of his imperfections. Purgatory exists to make the imperfect Christian perfect so that he can be ready for heaven.
What are deadly sins and non-deadly sins?
1 John 5:16-17
If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.
In the Catholic Church we call them "mortal" (deadly) and "venial" (not deadly) sins. In committing a mortal sin the sinner in so-doing cuts himself off from eternal life unless he repents. In committing a venial sin, the sinner does not cut himself off from eternal life, though he should still repent, as progressive unrepented venial sins often lead to mortal sin. A person who dies with not deadly (venial) sin on his soul is still saved, but his bad works will be burned up as through fire, that is, in purgatory.
That really did not answer my question, can you give me a list of what deadly sins are please?
Here is a biblical list for starters:
1 Cor. 6:9-11
Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
: Catholica Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 11:16:26
: doorknocker Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 11:04:07
: Catholica Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 10:52:18
: doorknocker Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 10:39:23
: Catholica Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 09:55:24
: skeeter Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 01:55:19
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 17:46:17
"If he is a Christian, then he is/was in Christ". So from your post I take it that you believe that a person who becomes a Christian can sin with impunity? Or if he does, then he was not a Christian in the first place, right? What about a person who does really well for a while and then "returns to his sin like a dog to his own vomit"? This can happen to anyone. They weren't a Christian in the first place then right?
What a horrible cycle that becomes. To deny the truth, that Christians can return to abject sin through their own will. Tell me you believe something else.
If you think about the above scenario, then no Christian can know whether he is in Christ or not at any particular time, because in the future he is fully capable of returning to a sinful life. He might, or he might not. If he does, then he has to believe that he was never a Christian in the first place. But then once he "becomes one (again)" he doesn't know for sure if he is this time or not.
Once we admit that we sin and know the truth about sins through which, through an act of our own will, "cut us off from the vine", then we can get past the trap above. And those sins are "mortal sins", referred to in the Bible (1 John 5:16-17) as "deadly sins". Those people in mortal sin were once "in Christ Jesus" but are no more "in Christ Jesus".
Thereby your verse which refers to people "in Christ Jesus" refers to those who have not cut themselves off from the throne of grace. And for them, even with venial sin on their soul, there is "no condemnation".
...
you're making things by saying Christians think they can sin with impunity. Obviously, you don't understand it... I've yet to see a Christian on here say that they can do that. What they might say is 'if they do sin, they will be forgiven' - of course, after they repent.
My whole question revolves around, what happens if a Christian does NOT repent, and then they die?
Yes we will be forgiven when we repent. But what if there are sins we have from which we don't repent?
If those sins are still forgiven, then repentance is not necessary. If those sins are not forgiven, then there are two options: the Christian goes to hell OR through the mercy of God, the Christian is still saved, though necessary reparation/atonement for those sins is made.
If one believes in only heaven and hell, then the only place for atonement to be made is in heaven. But it seems that, after Jesus' model, atonement is made through his suffering (by his stripes we were healed). But there is no suffering in heaven. So thereby in purgatory we take part in his suffering for the sins from which we can still be saved with on our soul (sins that are not deadly) but have not repented from.
Every sin we commit we deserve hell. So to commit even the smallest sin and not repent, that is what we deserve. But, as many people have pointed out, Jesus is not simply waiting for us to screw up to send us to hell. That is why venial (non-deadly) sins mean that the sinner doesn't choose hell, but also are indications of his imperfections. Purgatory exists to make the imperfect Christian perfect so that he can be ready for heaven.
What are deadly sins and non-deadly sins?
1 John 5:16-17
If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.
In the Catholic Church we call them "mortal" (deadly) and "venial" (not deadly) sins. In committing a mortal sin the sinner in so-doing cuts himself off from eternal life unless he repents. In committing a venial sin, the sinner does not cut himself off from eternal life, though he should still repent, as progressive unrepented venial sins often lead to mortal sin. A person who dies with not deadly (venial) sin on his soul is still saved, but his bad works will be burned up as through fire, that is, in purgatory.
That really did not answer my question, can you give me a list of what deadly sins are please?
Here is a biblical list for starters:
1 Cor. 6:9-11
Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Can you also give me a list of the non-deadly sins, please.
: doorknocker Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 11:28:24
: Catholica Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 11:16:26
: doorknocker Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 11:04:07
: Catholica Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 10:52:18
: doorknocker Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 10:39:23
: Catholica Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 09:55:24
: skeeter Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 01:55:19
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 17:46:17
"If he is a Christian, then he is/was in Christ". So from your post I take it that you believe that a person who becomes a Christian can sin with impunity? Or if he does, then he was not a Christian in the first place, right? What about a person who does really well for a while and then "returns to his sin like a dog to his own vomit"? This can happen to anyone. They weren't a Christian in the first place then right?
What a horrible cycle that becomes. To deny the truth, that Christians can return to abject sin through their own will. Tell me you believe something else.
If you think about the above scenario, then no Christian can know whether he is in Christ or not at any particular time, because in the future he is fully capable of returning to a sinful life. He might, or he might not. If he does, then he has to believe that he was never a Christian in the first place. But then once he "becomes one (again)" he doesn't know for sure if he is this time or not.
Once we admit that we sin and know the truth about sins through which, through an act of our own will, "cut us off from the vine", then we can get past the trap above. And those sins are "mortal sins", referred to in the Bible (1 John 5:16-17) as "deadly sins". Those people in mortal sin were once "in Christ Jesus" but are no more "in Christ Jesus".
Thereby your verse which refers to people "in Christ Jesus" refers to those who have not cut themselves off from the throne of grace. And for them, even with venial sin on their soul, there is "no condemnation".
...
you're making things by saying Christians think they can sin with impunity. Obviously, you don't understand it... I've yet to see a Christian on here say that they can do that. What they might say is 'if they do sin, they will be forgiven' - of course, after they repent.
My whole question revolves around, what happens if a Christian does NOT repent, and then they die?
Yes we will be forgiven when we repent. But what if there are sins we have from which we don't repent?
If those sins are still forgiven, then repentance is not necessary. If those sins are not forgiven, then there are two options: the Christian goes to hell OR through the mercy of God, the Christian is still saved, though necessary reparation/atonement for those sins is made.
If one believes in only heaven and hell, then the only place for atonement to be made is in heaven. But it seems that, after Jesus' model, atonement is made through his suffering (by his stripes we were healed). But there is no suffering in heaven. So thereby in purgatory we take part in his suffering for the sins from which we can still be saved with on our soul (sins that are not deadly) but have not repented from.
Every sin we commit we deserve hell. So to commit even the smallest sin and not repent, that is what we deserve. But, as many people have pointed out, Jesus is not simply waiting for us to screw up to send us to hell. That is why venial (non-deadly) sins mean that the sinner doesn't choose hell, but also are indications of his imperfections. Purgatory exists to make the imperfect Christian perfect so that he can be ready for heaven.
What are deadly sins and non-deadly sins?
1 John 5:16-17
If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.
In the Catholic Church we call them "mortal" (deadly) and "venial" (not deadly) sins. In committing a mortal sin the sinner in so-doing cuts himself off from eternal life unless he repents. In committing a venial sin, the sinner does not cut himself off from eternal life, though he should still repent, as progressive unrepented venial sins often lead to mortal sin. A person who dies with not deadly (venial) sin on his soul is still saved, but his bad works will be burned up as through fire, that is, in purgatory.
That really did not answer my question, can you give me a list of what deadly sins are please?
Here is a biblical list for starters:
1 Cor. 6:9-11
Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Can you also give me a list of the non-deadly sins, please.
Sure. Here is a more complete list for you.
http://www.followthissite.com/list-of-sins.php (http://www.followthissite.com/list-of-sins.php)
: Catholica Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 11:30:38
: doorknocker Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 11:28:24
: Catholica Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 11:16:26
: doorknocker Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 11:04:07
: Catholica Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 10:52:18
: doorknocker Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 10:39:23
: Catholica Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 09:55:24
: skeeter Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 01:55:19
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 17:46:17
"If he is a Christian, then he is/was in Christ". So from your post I take it that you believe that a person who becomes a Christian can sin with impunity? Or if he does, then he was not a Christian in the first place, right? What about a person who does really well for a while and then "returns to his sin like a dog to his own vomit"? This can happen to anyone. They weren't a Christian in the first place then right?
What a horrible cycle that becomes. To deny the truth, that Christians can return to abject sin through their own will. Tell me you believe something else.
If you think about the above scenario, then no Christian can know whether he is in Christ or not at any particular time, because in the future he is fully capable of returning to a sinful life. He might, or he might not. If he does, then he has to believe that he was never a Christian in the first place. But then once he "becomes one (again)" he doesn't know for sure if he is this time or not.
Once we admit that we sin and know the truth about sins through which, through an act of our own will, "cut us off from the vine", then we can get past the trap above. And those sins are "mortal sins", referred to in the Bible (1 John 5:16-17) as "deadly sins". Those people in mortal sin were once "in Christ Jesus" but are no more "in Christ Jesus".
Thereby your verse which refers to people "in Christ Jesus" refers to those who have not cut themselves off from the throne of grace. And for them, even with venial sin on their soul, there is "no condemnation".
...
you're making things by saying Christians think they can sin with impunity. Obviously, you don't understand it... I've yet to see a Christian on here say that they can do that. What they might say is 'if they do sin, they will be forgiven' - of course, after they repent.
My whole question revolves around, what happens if a Christian does NOT repent, and then they die?
Yes we will be forgiven when we repent. But what if there are sins we have from which we don't repent?
If those sins are still forgiven, then repentance is not necessary. If those sins are not forgiven, then there are two options: the Christian goes to hell OR through the mercy of God, the Christian is still saved, though necessary reparation/atonement for those sins is made.
If one believes in only heaven and hell, then the only place for atonement to be made is in heaven. But it seems that, after Jesus' model, atonement is made through his suffering (by his stripes we were healed). But there is no suffering in heaven. So thereby in purgatory we take part in his suffering for the sins from which we can still be saved with on our soul (sins that are not deadly) but have not repented from.
Every sin we commit we deserve hell. So to commit even the smallest sin and not repent, that is what we deserve. But, as many people have pointed out, Jesus is not simply waiting for us to screw up to send us to hell. That is why venial (non-deadly) sins mean that the sinner doesn't choose hell, but also are indications of his imperfections. Purgatory exists to make the imperfect Christian perfect so that he can be ready for heaven.
What are deadly sins and non-deadly sins?
1 John 5:16-17
If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.
In the Catholic Church we call them "mortal" (deadly) and "venial" (not deadly) sins. In committing a mortal sin the sinner in so-doing cuts himself off from eternal life unless he repents. In committing a venial sin, the sinner does not cut himself off from eternal life, though he should still repent, as progressive unrepented venial sins often lead to mortal sin. A person who dies with not deadly (venial) sin on his soul is still saved, but his bad works will be burned up as through fire, that is, in purgatory.
That really did not answer my question, can you give me a list of what deadly sins are please?
Here is a biblical list for starters:
1 Cor. 6:9-11
Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Can you also give me a list of the non-deadly sins, please.
Sure. Here is a more complete list for you.
http://www.followthissite.com/list-of-sins.php (http://www.followthissite.com/list-of-sins.php)
Can you please list the non-deadly sins here so we can see them in this discussion. Thank you.
: doorknocker Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 11:36:30
: Catholica Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 11:30:38
: doorknocker Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 11:28:24
: Catholica Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 11:16:26
: doorknocker Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 11:04:07
: Catholica Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 10:52:18
: doorknocker Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 10:39:23
: Catholica Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 09:55:24
: skeeter Sat Apr 25, 2015 - 01:55:19
: Catholica Tue Apr 14, 2015 - 17:46:17
"If he is a Christian, then he is/was in Christ". So from your post I take it that you believe that a person who becomes a Christian can sin with impunity? Or if he does, then he was not a Christian in the first place, right? What about a person who does really well for a while and then "returns to his sin like a dog to his own vomit"? This can happen to anyone. They weren't a Christian in the first place then right?
What a horrible cycle that becomes. To deny the truth, that Christians can return to abject sin through their own will. Tell me you believe something else.
If you think about the above scenario, then no Christian can know whether he is in Christ or not at any particular time, because in the future he is fully capable of returning to a sinful life. He might, or he might not. If he does, then he has to believe that he was never a Christian in the first place. But then once he "becomes one (again)" he doesn't know for sure if he is this time or not.
Once we admit that we sin and know the truth about sins through which, through an act of our own will, "cut us off from the vine", then we can get past the trap above. And those sins are "mortal sins", referred to in the Bible (1 John 5:16-17) as "deadly sins". Those people in mortal sin were once "in Christ Jesus" but are no more "in Christ Jesus".
Thereby your verse which refers to people "in Christ Jesus" refers to those who have not cut themselves off from the throne of grace. And for them, even with venial sin on their soul, there is "no condemnation".
...
you're making things by saying Christians think they can sin with impunity. Obviously, you don't understand it... I've yet to see a Christian on here say that they can do that. What they might say is 'if they do sin, they will be forgiven' - of course, after they repent.
My whole question revolves around, what happens if a Christian does NOT repent, and then they die?
Yes we will be forgiven when we repent. But what if there are sins we have from which we don't repent?
If those sins are still forgiven, then repentance is not necessary. If those sins are not forgiven, then there are two options: the Christian goes to hell OR through the mercy of God, the Christian is still saved, though necessary reparation/atonement for those sins is made.
If one believes in only heaven and hell, then the only place for atonement to be made is in heaven. But it seems that, after Jesus' model, atonement is made through his suffering (by his stripes we were healed). But there is no suffering in heaven. So thereby in purgatory we take part in his suffering for the sins from which we can still be saved with on our soul (sins that are not deadly) but have not repented from.
Every sin we commit we deserve hell. So to commit even the smallest sin and not repent, that is what we deserve. But, as many people have pointed out, Jesus is not simply waiting for us to screw up to send us to hell. That is why venial (non-deadly) sins mean that the sinner doesn't choose hell, but also are indications of his imperfections. Purgatory exists to make the imperfect Christian perfect so that he can be ready for heaven.
What are deadly sins and non-deadly sins?
1 John 5:16-17
If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.
In the Catholic Church we call them "mortal" (deadly) and "venial" (not deadly) sins. In committing a mortal sin the sinner in so-doing cuts himself off from eternal life unless he repents. In committing a venial sin, the sinner does not cut himself off from eternal life, though he should still repent, as progressive unrepented venial sins often lead to mortal sin. A person who dies with not deadly (venial) sin on his soul is still saved, but his bad works will be burned up as through fire, that is, in purgatory.
That really did not answer my question, can you give me a list of what deadly sins are please?
Here is a biblical list for starters:
1 Cor. 6:9-11
Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Can you also give me a list of the non-deadly sins, please.
Sure. Here is a more complete list for you.
http://www.followthissite.com/list-of-sins.php (http://www.followthissite.com/list-of-sins.php)
Can you please list the non-deadly sins here so we can see them in this discussion. Thank you.
From http://www.catholicparents.org/oxcart/Examination%20of%20Conscience.pdf (http://www.catholicparents.org/oxcart/Examination%20of%20Conscience.pdf)
Venial Sins and Imperfections*
* Imperfections are not sins so they do not need to be confessed. No distinction is made on this sheet between venial sins and imperfections because it is not always easy to make the distinction. Some things are imperfections because they are very small, other things are imperfections because they are dispositions of the soul and not willful actions or failures, still others because they are habitual.
1. I am the Lord your God. You shall not have strange gods before me.
- Failure to pray on a daily basis
- Not trying to love God with my whole mind, heart, soul and strength
- Trying to control things rather than seek God's will
- Entertaining doubts against the Faith
- Failing to seek out or learn the teachings of the Church
- Indifference or ingratitude to God
- Lukewarmness in the relationship with God
- Not trying to grow spiritually; being content with mediocrity
- Acedia (spiritual sloth)
- Putting other things or people before God, e.g., TV, radio, sports, hobbies, etc.
- Attachment to human respect or affection, i.e., caring more about what others think than what God thinks in order to fit in or be liked
- Not trusting God
- Failure to fulfill the duties of one's state in life
- Playing Dungeons and Dragons or similar games
- Tempting God
- Being angry at God
- Embarrassment of being Catholic
- Failure to defend the Church when ridiculed
- Failure to support the work of the Church monetarily and/or with time and ability
- Not taking part in the work of evangelization
- Being willfully distracted at Mass or in prayer
- Putting off confession needlessly
- Failing to accept or offer up suffering
- Refusing or denying the mercy of God
- Not trying to practice recollection or the frequent remembrance of God's presence
- Failure to pray when tempted
- Failure to examine one's conscience daily
- Giving into depression, self pity or self deprecating thoughts
2. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
- Using the Lord's name lightly, in surprise or in anger (habitual, not thinking)
- Cursing thoughtlessly
- Using the names of Mary, a Saint, the Pope or other sacred persons irreverently
- Using vulgar or inappropriate language
- Telling bad jokes about sacred persons or objects
- Speaking badly of the Church
- Inappropriate or irreverent use of Scripture
3. Remember to keep holy the Lord's Day.
- Doing unnecessary work on Sunday
- Failing to keep Sunday as a day for family and recreation
- Failing to spend extra time on Sunday in prayer and study of the Faith
- Allowing sports or other schedules to dictate the Sunday schedule
- Being irreverent in church
- Not paying attention or participating at Mass
- Coming late to Mass or leaving early without a serious reason
- Desecrating the day by sinful amusements, bad company, inappropriate entertainment, etc.
4. Honor your father and mother.
- Fighting with siblings
- Disobedience to parents or authorities
- Failure to give proper respect to parents or those in authority
- Treating those under one's authority disrespectfully
- Failure to respect the dignity of children
- Speaking badly about parents
- Speaking badly about children
- Speaking badly about one's spouse
- Neglecting duties toward spouse or children
- Failing to give good example to one's family
- Not trying to cultivate peace in the family
- Taking one's spouse for granted
- Making fun of or failing to help the elderly or handicapped
- Not praying for those entrusted to your care
- Failing to pray for those in authority over you, e.g., parents, teachers, employers, government officials, etc.
- Failure to teach children adequately about God and the spiritual life
- Lack of gratitude toward parents
- Nagging spouse or children
- Treating adult children like minors
- Meddling in the affairs of married children
- Too lax with rules, boundaries and discipline
- Too strict with rules, boundaries and discipline
- Breaking just civil laws without serious reason
- Being ashamed of or embarrassed about parents
5. You shall not kill.
- Pride, arrogance
- Vanity
- Stubbornness without good reason
- Rudeness
- Failure to apologize
- Fighting or arguing over slight matters
- Anger
- Using obscene or vulgar gestures
- Prejudice
- Harboring a grudge
- Seeking revenge or retaliation
- Wishing evil upon another
- Impatience
- Selfishness
- Listening to bad music
- Excessive watching of television
- Excessive playing of computer games
- Excessive use of the internet
- Watching TV or movies that promote sex or violence
- Playing computer games that promote sex or violence
- Refusing to forgive another
- Intemperance (overeating or drinking too much)
- Driving carelessly
- Failing to care for one's health
- Smoking or chewing tobacco
- Abusing medications
- Sloth (laziness)
- Procrastination
- Lack of puncuality
- Failure to respect the dignity of self or others
- Giving scandal to another
- Treating another unjustly
- Failure to take medications if such are necessary
- Doing things willfully to anger others
- Violating friendships
- Failure to pray for deceased parents or relatives
- Using the "silent treatment" on others
- Failure to pray for sinners
6. You shall not commit adultery.
- Lack of custody of the eyes (looking inappropriately at others)
- Allowing the heart to stray from one's spouse
- Dressing somewhat immodestly
- Acting or carrying oneself immodestly
- Treating others as objects
- Failure to respect persons of the opposite sex
- Seeking wrongful attention from another
- Selfishness in marital intimacy
- Failure to be open to life without serious reason
- Keeping bad company
7. You shall not steal.
- Attachments to persons or things
- Theft of small or inexpensive items
- Willful Failure to return borrowed items
- Wasting time
- Failure to pay debts promptly
- Failing to practice charity or to help the poor
- Squandering money on needless things or pursuits
- Not keeping a promise
8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
- Lying
- Gossiping
- Spreading rumors or tale bearing
- Talking behind another's back
- Being negative, critical or uncharitable in thought regarding others
- Making rash judgments
- Being unjustly suspicious
- Failure to seek to restore the good name of another whom you have injured through
speech
- Cheating in games, school work, etc.
- Speaking unkindly to or about others
- Exaggerating the truth
- Bragging or boasting
- Flattery
- Complaining, whining or attention seeking
9. You shall not desire your neighbor's wife.
- Telling or listening to impure or vulgar jokes or stories
- Brief entertainment of impure thoughts or fantasies
- Not trying to control the imagination
- Curiosity or playing with temptation
- Seeking out or looking at persons or pictures which are immodest
10. You shall not desire your neighbor's goods.
- Envy (sadness or anger at the good fortune of another)
- Jealousy (desire for the goods of another)
- Greed
- Materialism
- Not trusting that God will provide for all material and spiritual needs
- Attachment to riches or material goods
: Catholica Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 11:37:18
: doorknocker Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 11:36:30
Can you please list the non-deadly sins here so we can see them in this discussion. Thank you.
From http://www.catholicparents.org/oxcart/Examination%20of%20Conscience.pdf (http://www.catholicparents.org/oxcart/Examination%20of%20Conscience.pdf)
Venial Sins and Imperfections*
* Imperfections are not sins so they do not need to be confessed. No distinction is made on this sheet between venial sins and imperfections because it is not always easy to make the distinction. Some things are imperfections because they are very small, other things are imperfections because they are dispositions of the soul and not willful actions or failures, still others because they are habitual.
Your list has once again given me reason to be so grateful and to thank God all over again that I was led out of the RC 40 or so yrs ago!
: skeeter Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 15:26:28
: Catholica Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 11:37:18
: doorknocker Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 11:36:30
Can you please list the non-deadly sins here so we can see them in this discussion. Thank you.
From http://www.catholicparents.org/oxcart/Examination%20of%20Conscience.pdf (http://www.catholicparents.org/oxcart/Examination%20of%20Conscience.pdf)
Venial Sins and Imperfections*
* Imperfections are not sins so they do not need to be confessed. No distinction is made on this sheet between venial sins and imperfections because it is not always easy to make the distinction. Some things are imperfections because they are very small, other things are imperfections because they are dispositions of the soul and not willful actions or failures, still others because they are habitual.
Your list has once again given me reason to be so grateful and to thank God all over again that I was led out of the RC 40 or so yrs ago!
You would rather not know what is sin and what is not? Feeling convicted?
I think... her comments reflect a joy over no one keeping a list over us, no one checking them off. I'm not convinced that when the disciples when about spreading salvation through Jesus Christ that they had a list. Or that they had the time to check it to see who is and is not doing this and that. If you really need a list, then you may not have the conviction of the Holy Spirit that we should have. If your days are spent in seeking to talk to Him, to know Him, to worship Him... do you really need a list of sins broke down into categories and sub categories. I don't. If you walk daily, in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that never leaves you, enjoying His touch, His presence, and adoring Him... why would anyone need to keep a list?
If you need to consult a list to know if taking someone's money in a deal is sin... you get the idea. I have JOY JOY JOY... God keeps no such list, and I have no need of one!
: Catholica Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 17:13:25
: skeeter Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 15:26:28
: Catholica Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 11:37:18
: doorknocker Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 11:36:30
Can you please list the non-deadly sins here so we can see them in this discussion. Thank you.
From http://www.catholicparents.org/oxcart/Examination%20of%20Conscience.pdf (http://www.catholicparents.org/oxcart/Examination%20of%20Conscience.pdf)
Venial Sins and Imperfections*
* Imperfections are not sins so they do not need to be confessed. No distinction is made on this sheet between venial sins and imperfections because it is not always easy to make the distinction. Some things are imperfections because they are very small, other things are imperfections because they are dispositions of the soul and not willful actions or failures, still others because they are habitual.
Your list has once again given me reason to be so grateful and to thank God all over again that I was led out of the RC 40 or so yrs ago!
You would rather not know what is sin and what is not? Feeling convicted?
That'd be funny if it wasn't so sad... No, I don't need a list. As I read it, I had a vision of Catholics having a print out of it and checking them off w/ a number next to each (#of times done) to take with them to confession. They'll need to add lights in those confessionals - at least for the older people. The confessional lines would indeed grow, as would the time waiting and 'penance' given (oh, how many Hail Mary's and Our Fathers would one have to say!)
I was 'convicted' about 40 yrs ago - and it doesn't take a 'list' to tell me if / when I've offended Him. Just re-read Kensington's post. No need for me to retype what she has already explained.
My mind goes to the man at the Pool of Bethesda... lying there. Wasting time. Sinning, when he should have been rolling his body down to the water. The slacker.
I like to think of wasting time as, "enjoying" not having anything pressing to do. :9)
let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled
clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. -Heb.10:22
But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court.
In fact, I do not even judge myself. -1Cor.4:3
Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. -Phl.3:13,14
But Lot's wife, behind him, looked back, and she became a pillar of salt. -Gen.19:26
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. -Rom.8:1-5
For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near.
Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers,
having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins?
But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year.
For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said,
"Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired,
but a body have you prepared for me;
in burnt offerings and sin offerings
you have taken no pleasure.
Then I said, 'Behold, I have come to do your will, O God,
as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.'"
When he said above, "You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings" (these are offered according to the law),
then he added, "Behold, I have come to do your will." He does away with the first in order to establish the second.
And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,
waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,
"This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws on their hearts,
and write them on their minds,"
then he adds,
"I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more."
Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin. Heb.10:1-18
First y'all ask for a list and then when you get one you mock Catholics for having a list.
There are also lists in scripture. I wouldn't mock this list if I were you.
Its not like Catholics carry this list with them. But for those who want to form their consciences it is quite useful.
Notice also that this is a list of venal sins or imperfections. This is a list of those sins which will not kill the life in Jesus in the soul. People who commit these sins will still be saved.
You don't know that. There is no way you can know that. Some man decided that.
None of that was mentioned in the New Testament to the church. And in fact, that list has had to change as time goes by... Like driving a car recklessly. Jesus didn't say anything about that. That should actually be called "Endangering the life of others"...
That's what's wrong with lists... men make them, and men mess them up. So men have to change them. But, GOD is the same, yesterday, today and forever.
And on the point of the jokes, that was me and only me. And I did not ask for any list. Besides, I didn't see "Having a sense of humor" on that list. Maybe if you guys lightened up a bit, you wouldn't need all those lists. Peace.
: Catholica Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 20:24:16
First y'all ask for a list and then when you get one you mock Catholics for having a list.
There are also lists in scripture. I wouldn't mock this list if I were you.
Its not like Catholics carry this list with them. But for those who want to form their consciences it is quite useful.
Notice also that this is a list of venal sins or imperfections. This is a list of those sins which will not kill the life in Jesus in the soul. People who commit these sins will still be saved.
I am with you on this one. There is nothing wrong with having a list that can be applied to things in life we take as common.
However, I do think it is hilarious that voting for a Communist Party is a mortal sin, or having excessive tattoos.
Personally I don't think any list would need to be crossed off.
We are all guilty of all the mortal sins. Venal sins and imperfections are just oil on the fire.
It's really a shame when true Born Again Spirit filled Christians need a list to tell them what is sin, and how to behave to his fellow man or their marriage. That we would even need to check such a list is ridiculous.
Truly Spirit filled people would know in an instant in their heart and mind if such things as these were sin or not. I guess this is where the term... "Keeping a list and checking it twice" came from. Oh... No... wait... that was Santa.
"And the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus."
You should live with the Peace of God, if you don't have it, you have sinned. It's really that simple.
: Catholica Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 20:24:16
First y'all ask for a list and then when you get one you mock Catholics for having a list.
There are also lists in scripture. I wouldn't mock this list if I were you.
Its not like Catholics carry this list with them. But for those who want to form their consciences it is quite useful.
Notice also that this is a list of venal sins or imperfections. This is a list of those sins which will not kill the life in Jesus in the soul. People who commit these sins will still be saved.
If it's my post you didn't appreciate, that's probably because you didn't grow up Catholic - going to Catholic schools. Live where the majority lived within walking distance of the school/church. That includes up to maybe 12 city blocks away. We lived 8 or 9 blks and I still walked to school and home and often home for lunch and back. I'd walk there on Sat if there was a wedding or funeral too. And back again sometimes for confession.
I had such terrible things to decide what to confess to. Had I stuck my tongue out at my sister that week? Went out to play instead of helping her with the housework? that I brought the dog in out of the cold and hid her under my blankets at night? listened in on the teenager down the block on our party line? reading my sister's diary? - so many things to think about.
Sometimes we'd meet (girlfriends) at church to go to confession and then over to the drug store for a pop (they still had a soda fountain then). We'd all be in a pew waiting for the last person to come out of the confessional so we could start our turns in there. Then back to kneel down and say our Hail Marys. Then on Sunday morning we'd all get in line to go up for communion together.
Who put up that site with the sin list? A few interesting ones on the mortal list.
Did you Loose Your Temper to an extreme [Deadly Sin-- ANGER]? People don't usually
loose their temper, but they might
have a loose temper.
and right there on the list it said -
Did you fail to meet you Yearly Obligation of Confession, (Easter Duty)? . I thought as a RC we were required to go at least once a yr. I asked on one of these threads and someone replied that they didn't remember it being a requirement.
Then there's this one about eating meat on Fridays -
Did you intentionally Eat Meat on the Fridays of Lent or on Ash Wednesday? I brought that up on my women's board (more secular but a lot of Catholics too) and was told it was never a sin, it was just suggested that we not eat meat on Fridays. When I was growing up we couldn't eat meat on any Friday.
I was also surprised to see that it could be a mortal sin not to receive communion once a yr. so many Catholics make an issue of the Eucharist that it surprised me. They make claims of how horrible protestants are to only have communion once a month. So many claim to go weekly - or daily. Yet on the list it's not a sin if you go at least once a yr.
Just once a year.
: kensington Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 20:31:52
You don't know that. There is no way you can know that. Some man decided that.
None of that was mentioned in the New Testament to the church. And in fact, that list has had to change as time goes by... Like driving a car recklessly. Jesus didn't say anything about that. That should actually be called "Endangering the life of others"...
That's what's wrong with lists... men make them, and men mess them up. So men have to change them. But, GOD is the same, yesterday, today and forever.
The Church is a living authority, founded by Jesus, so that in every age we would know with surety how to apply the moral law.
And on the point of the jokes, that was me and only me. And I did not ask for any list. Besides, I didn't see "Having a sense of humor" on that list. Maybe if you guys lightened up a bit, you wouldn't need all those lists. Peace.
Catholics love to laugh.
"Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine,
There's always laughter and good red wine.
At least I've always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!"
― Hilaire Belloc
: Catholica Tue Apr 28, 2015 - 09:19:15
Catholics love to laugh.
"Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine,
There's always laughter and good red wine.
At least I've always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!"
― Hilaire Belloc
And so the Catholic sun shone on John Wycliffe among others.
: AVZ Tue Apr 28, 2015 - 09:35:52
: Catholica Tue Apr 28, 2015 - 09:19:15
Catholics love to laugh.
"Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine,
There's always laughter and good red wine.
At least I've always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!"
― Hilaire Belloc
And so the Catholic sun shone on John Wycliffe among others.
Like the Protestant sun shined on the thousands of innocent women they burnt or drowned as 'witches'.
And the thousands of Irish Catholics slaughtered by Protestant Cromwell.
: skeeter Tue Apr 28, 2015 - 02:50:03
: Catholica Mon Apr 27, 2015 - 20:24:16
First y'all ask for a list and then when you get one you mock Catholics for having a list.
There are also lists in scripture. I wouldn't mock this list if I were you.
Its not like Catholics carry this list with them. But for those who want to form their consciences it is quite useful.
Notice also that this is a list of venal sins or imperfections. This is a list of those sins which will not kill the life in Jesus in the soul. People who commit these sins will still be saved.
If it's my post you didn't appreciate, that's probably because you didn't grow up Catholic - going to Catholic schools. Live where the majority lived within walking distance of the school/church. That includes up to maybe 12 city blocks away. We lived 8 or 9 blks and I still walked to school and home and often home for lunch and back. I'd walk there on Sat if there was a wedding or funeral too. And back again sometimes for confession.
I had such terrible things to decide what to confess to. Had I stuck my tongue out at my sister that week? Went out to play instead of helping her with the housework? that I brought the dog in out of the cold and hid her under my blankets at night? listened in on the teenager down the block on our party line? reading my sister's diary? - so many things to think about.
Sometimes we'd meet (girlfriends) at church to go to confession and then over to the drug store for a pop (they still had a soda fountain then). We'd all be in a pew waiting for the last person to come out of the confessional so we could start our turns in there. Then back to kneel down and say our Hail Marys. Then on Sunday morning we'd all get in line to go up for communion together.
It's not really that hard. If you remember committing a sin you confess it. If you don't remember then the sacrament takes care of that too. If you intentionally withhold a known sin, that is a different matter.
Who put up that site with the sin list? A few interesting ones on the mortal list.
Did you Loose Your Temper to an extreme [Deadly Sin-- ANGER]? People don't usually loose their temper, but they might have a loose temper.
You seem more concerned with a spelling mistake than you are in examining your conscience.
The first site probably isn't the best. The more I read it the more I realized that it was compiled by a sedevacantist.
and right there on the list it said - Did you fail to meet you Yearly Obligation of Confession, (Easter Duty)? . I thought as a RC we were required to go at least once a yr. I asked on one of these threads and someone replied that they didn't remember it being a requirement.
The Easter duty is a precept of the Church which binds the Catholic to receive communion once a year during the Easter season. If the person has mortal sin on their soul then that also would require them to go to confession before hand.
Then there's this one about eating meat on Fridays - Did you intentionally Eat Meat on the Fridays of Lent or on Ash Wednesday? I brought that up on my women's board (more secular but a lot of Catholics too) and was told it was never a sin, it was just suggested that we not eat meat on Fridays. When I was growing up we couldn't eat meat on any Friday.
They are wrong. It is a sin to
intentionally eat flesh meat on Fridays of Lent or Ash Wednesday, and actually any Friday of the year that is not a solemnity, unless the local council of bishops has made an alternative. It's a matter of Canon Law, and it is done for a good purpose. Some manner of fasting or abstinence is good for the soul.
Intentionally eating meat would be an act of defiance against Canon Law.
I was also surprised to see that it could be a mortal sin not to receive communion once a yr. so many Catholics make an issue of the Eucharist that it surprised me. They make claims of how horrible protestants are to only have communion once a month. So many claim to go weekly - or daily. Yet on the list it's not a sin if you go at least once a yr. Just once a year.
This is the bare minimum; Catholics also believe that the commandment of keeping Holy the Lord's Day also requires mass attendance on Sunday. But people aren't required to receive communion if they go to mass. But Eucharist is celebrated every week, in fact, every day.
But I don't know and haven't heard of Catholics really caring about how often non-Catholics practice communion. But I suppose some might, it would be weird to me to care.
: winsome Tue Apr 28, 2015 - 09:51:10
: AVZ Tue Apr 28, 2015 - 09:35:52
: Catholica Tue Apr 28, 2015 - 09:19:15
Catholics love to laugh.
"Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine,
There's always laughter and good red wine.
At least I've always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!"
― Hilaire Belloc
And so the Catholic sun shone on John Wycliffe among others.
Like the Protestant sun shined on the thousands of innocent women they burnt or drowned as 'witches'.
And the thousands of Irish Catholics slaughtered by Protestant Cromwell.
Pope John Paul II wasn't Protestant when he made an apology for the Inquisition and the Crusades.
And the Catholic Irish at war with England aligned themselves with Royalist armies defeated in the English Civil Wars so as to wage war against the crown that Cromwell was sworn to defend in war.
: Buster D Body Crab Tue Apr 28, 2015 - 10:11:22
: winsome Tue Apr 28, 2015 - 09:51:10
: AVZ Tue Apr 28, 2015 - 09:35:52
: Catholica Tue Apr 28, 2015 - 09:19:15
Catholics love to laugh.
"Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine,
There's always laughter and good red wine.
At least I've always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!"
― Hilaire Belloc
And so the Catholic sun shone on John Wycliffe among others.
Like the Protestant sun shined on the thousands of innocent women they burnt or drowned as 'witches'.
And the thousands of Irish Catholics slaughtered by Protestant Cromwell.
Pope John Paul II wasn't Protestant when he made an apology for the Inquisition and the Crusades.
And the Catholic Irish at war with England aligned themselves with Royalist armies defeated in the English Civil Wars so as to wage war against the crown that Cromwell was sworn to defend in war.
Oh yes, Cromwell's ethnic cleansing of the Irish peasants was purely in defence of England.
: winsome Tue Apr 28, 2015 - 10:17:28
: Buster D Body Crab Tue Apr 28, 2015 - 10:11:22
: winsome Tue Apr 28, 2015 - 09:51:10
: AVZ Tue Apr 28, 2015 - 09:35:52
: Catholica Tue Apr 28, 2015 - 09:19:15
Catholics love to laugh.
"Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine,
There's always laughter and good red wine.
At least I've always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!"
― Hilaire Belloc
And so the Catholic sun shone on John Wycliffe among others.
Like the Protestant sun shined on the thousands of innocent women they burnt or drowned as 'witches'.
And the thousands of Irish Catholics slaughtered by Protestant Cromwell.
Pope John Paul II wasn't Protestant when he made an apology for the Inquisition and the Crusades.
And the Catholic Irish at war with England aligned themselves with Royalist armies defeated in the English Civil Wars so as to wage war against the crown that Cromwell was sworn to defend in war.
Oh yes, Cromwell's ethnic cleansing of the Irish peasants was purely in defence of England.
You're reaching to bring Cromwell into a thread about the RCC concept of Purgatory.
And Cromwell was following orders. Commit all those responsible parties to indictment for acts back then or does that not serve your interest in Protestant bashing?
Cromwell paid his price for what you seem to think he alone did in Ireland. He was beheaded without a trial and his head was stuck on a pike on London bridge.
Meanwhile, you've ignored the Papal apology for the inquisition and the crusades.
: Buster D Body Crab Tue Apr 28, 2015 - 11:01:06
: winsome Tue Apr 28, 2015 - 10:17:28
: Buster D Body Crab Tue Apr 28, 2015 - 10:11:22
: winsome Tue Apr 28, 2015 - 09:51:10
: AVZ Tue Apr 28, 2015 - 09:35:52
: Catholica Tue Apr 28, 2015 - 09:19:15
Catholics love to laugh.
"Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine,
There's always laughter and good red wine.
At least I've always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!"
― Hilaire Belloc
And so the Catholic sun shone on John Wycliffe among others.
Like the Protestant sun shined on the thousands of innocent women they burnt or drowned as 'witches'.
And the thousands of Irish Catholics slaughtered by Protestant Cromwell.
Pope John Paul II wasn't Protestant when he made an apology for the Inquisition and the Crusades.
And the Catholic Irish at war with England aligned themselves with Royalist armies defeated in the English Civil Wars so as to wage war against the crown that Cromwell was sworn to defend in war.
Oh yes, Cromwell's ethnic cleansing of the Irish peasants was purely in defence of England.
You're reaching to bring Cromwell into a thread about the RCC concept of Purgatory.
Why no chastisement of AVZ for talking about Wycliffe?
You equate John Wycliffe with the Inquisition, the Crusades, and Oliver Cromwell?
: Buster D Body Crab Tue Apr 28, 2015 - 11:25:30: Catholica: Buster D Body CrabYou're reaching to bring Cromwell into a thread about the RCC concept of Purgatory.
Why no chastisement of AVZ for talking about Wycliffe?
You equate John Wycliffe with the Inquisition, the Crusades, and Oliver Cromwell?
Neither have to do with Purgatory, do they Mr. Moderator?
: Catholica Tue Apr 28, 2015 - 11:26:47
: Buster D Body Crab Tue Apr 28, 2015 - 11:25:30: Catholica: Buster D Body CrabYou're reaching to bring Cromwell into a thread about the RCC concept of Purgatory.
Why no chastisement of AVZ for talking about Wycliffe?
You equate John Wycliffe with the Inquisition, the Crusades, and Oliver Cromwell?
Neither have to do with Purgatory, do they Mr. Moderator?
There's much in this thread that has not a thing to do with Purgatory Mr. Catholica.
Mr. Catholica made a very good point here. This thread has been taken, and allowed to go off topic, and I have also partook in speaking of and to off topic subjects. Therefore it is now closed. There's too much cleanup to get back on track and I doubt some would go back on track.
If the OP author would like to restart the discussion on topic that is their prerogative. It's gone so far afield I think that is a sign that it has run its course anyway.