via google see [Virgin Mary/Church Fathers] - should we accept Tradition and early Church Fathers or much latter day reformers - wincam
Seems to be a standoff wincam, the Catholics that stand by church tradition and the protestants that rely on scripture to support their views.
Catholics love to use the "protestant" label whenever it suits them to use it as a tool to support the nature of those that turned away from the church, while protestants themselves believe the moniker supports their long awaited freedom from the oppression of the church which many believed to be in error.
Google was non existent back then, to use it now to support your claims is merely adding more slant to the view you already possess.
if it isnt in Gods word or is the opposite of what Gods word says, then then we can discount it. Men are fallible, God isnt.
You didn't give an exact article... you just said "see google", so your information cannot be sound. Any article? They're are numerous articles.
However, of the one article I did read, that was written to support the idea, was assumptions. No facts, nothing proven... no Scripture back up for the reasoning.
The one source used in that article was another writing by a world renowned writer... Which means nothing...
Scripture is the foundation for all things leading to Christ.
Catholics would do better to stop proclaiming these dogmas to the rest of us as "Facts" and be honest.. saying..."This is what we believe" rather than insisting and continuing to proclaim these dogmas as Facts that we call need to just believe.
There is nothing wrong with you just saying its what you believe, without trying to make the rest of us choke it down. We don't believe it... that should be good enough for you.
: kensington Sun Sep 20, 2015 - 01:42:52
You didn't give an exact article... you just said "see google", so your information cannot be sound. Any article? They're are numerous articles.
However, of the one article I did read, that was written to support the idea, was assumptions. No facts, nothing proven... no Scripture back up for the reasoning.
The one source used in that article was another writing by a world renowned writer... Which means nothing...
Scripture is the foundation for all things leading to Christ.
Catholics would do better to stop proclaiming these dogmas to the rest of us as "Facts" and be honest.. saying..."This is what we believe" rather than insisting and continuing to proclaim these dogmas as Facts that we call need to just believe.
There is nothing wrong with you just saying its what you believe, without trying to make the rest of us choke it down. We don't believe it... that should be good enough for you.
what is being queried is why some do not believe it when the early Christians did and still do - are we to presume that the Church did in fact fail and that some very much later date reformer reformed it and that Christ's prayer went and goes unanswered - no way and not at all imho -
: Alan Sat Sep 19, 2015 - 16:41:15
Seems to be a standoff wincam, the Catholics that stand by church tradition and the protestants that rely on scripture to support their views.
Catholics love to use the "protestant" label whenever it suits them to use it as a tool to support the nature of those that turned away from the church, while protestants themselves believe the moniker supports their long awaited freedom from the oppression of the church which many believed to be in error.
Google was non existent back then, to use it now to support your claims is merely adding more slant to the view you already possess.
neither was the reformation and the reformers - better the early Christians and church fathers and tradition than know better very much latter day self opiniated reformers ad infinitum and ad absurdum - wincam
: chosenone Sun Sep 20, 2015 - 00:33:41
if it isnt in Gods word or is the opposite of what Gods word says, then then we can discount it. Men are fallible, God isnt.
exactly especially much later day self opiniated men posing as reformers stating the Church has failed in spite of Christ's prayer - be reformed and come home now - wincam
: wincam Sun Sep 20, 2015 - 03:10:03
: kensington Sun Sep 20, 2015 - 01:42:52
You didn't give an exact article... you just said "see google", so your information cannot be sound. Any article? They're are numerous articles.
However, of the one article I did read, that was written to support the idea, was assumptions. No facts, nothing proven... no Scripture back up for the reasoning.
The one source used in that article was another writing by a world renowned writer... Which means nothing...
Scripture is the foundation for all things leading to Christ.
Catholics would do better to stop proclaiming these dogmas to the rest of us as "Facts" and be honest.. saying..."This is what we believe" rather than insisting and continuing to proclaim these dogmas as Facts that we call need to just believe.
There is nothing wrong with you just saying its what you believe, without trying to make the rest of us choke it down. We don't believe it... that should be good enough for you.
what is being queried is why some do not believe it when the early Christians did and still do - are we to presume that the Church did in fact fail and that some very much later date reformer reformed it and that Christ's prayer went and goes unanswered - no way and not at all imho -
Of course the early church failed, even when Paul was alive churches were going off course(for example some going back into works and telling others that they should get circumcised) hence his need to write them and correct them. Men are fallible which is why we need Gods word as our guidance and plumb line.
Wasnt it St Augustine who declared that God goes out of the room when we have sex???? Yep VERY fallible.
: wincam Sun Sep 20, 2015 - 03:20:10
: chosenone Sun Sep 20, 2015 - 00:33:41
if it isnt in Gods word or is the opposite of what Gods word says, then then we can discount it. Men are fallible, God isnt.
exactly especially much later day self opiniated men posing as reformers stating the Church has failed in spite of Christ's prayer - be reformed and come home now - wincam
Dont you believe that Heaven is our home?. Its what God says. ::shrug::
I thank God for the reformers who got my country out of the dark spiritually dead times of the Roman Catholic church.
I don't get why this matters SO much to you, Wincam?
Your focus should not be on Mary's sex life, but on Jesus Christ and what HE did to set mankind free from sin and death!
it is neither reasonable, or sensible or logical or spiritual to assume that Jesus did not have recourse to the toilet as it is not in the bible - wincam
what ever is your hang up about thanking God for Mary and thanking Mary for Jesus - henceforth all nations shall call me blessed except of course some in those nations who will not - give over and come home now - wincam
: wincam Sun Sep 20, 2015 - 11:07:42
what ever is your hang up about thanking God for Mary and thanking Mary for Jesus - henceforth all nations shall call me blessed except of course some in those nations who will not - give over and come home now - wincam
I can't thank Mary for Jesus, because I can't talk to her, she is in Heaven with God. When I see God face to face, I am sure I will enjoy many hours of conversation with Mary, however, as I have often wondered what it was like to raise a perfect child and how she kept sibling rivalry and competition from her family; as her other kids were fully human, and SO very much NOT perfect!
I refuse to give her the glory due to God, however.
I am home. Right in the arms of God where I belong.
Wincam, I can't help but notice you didn't answer my question:
Why does this matter SO much to you, Wincam?
Your focus should not be on Mary's sex life, but on Jesus Christ and what HE did to set mankind free from sin and death!
of course if they were her other children she would have prevented them from thinking Jesus was beside Himself and mad and tried to restrain and as good brothers and sisters got together to bury Him and rehouse their mother - give over and come home now - wincam
: wincam Sun Sep 20, 2015 - 11:30:19
of course if they were her other children she would have prevented them from thinking Jesus was beside Himself and mad and tried to restrain and as good brothers and sisters got together to bury Him and rehouse their mother - give over and come home now - wincam
wincam the way that you constantly tell others to come home now is offensive, especially as God clearly says that Heaven is our home, or maybe you know better than He does?
: wincam Sun Sep 20, 2015 - 11:07:42
what ever is your hang up about thanking God for Mary and thanking Mary for Jesus - henceforth all nations shall call me blessed except of course some in those nations who will not - give over and come home now - wincam
Why would we do that when she is dead and cant hear us?
Many are blessed, in fact we are all blessed if we Know Jesus.
: wincam Sun Sep 20, 2015 - 11:07:42
what ever is your hang up about thanking God for Mary and thanking Mary for Jesus - henceforth all nations shall call me blessed except of course some in those nations who will not - give over and come home now - wincam
It's a straight forward thanking and praising God for Jesus, it was not Mary's doing, she did not conceive the child, she does deserve to be honoured for her obedience to the Lord but that's about it - come out of your religious dwelling now - Al
: wincam Sun Sep 20, 2015 - 11:30:19
of course if they were her other children she would have prevented them from thinking Jesus was beside Himself and mad and tried to restrain and as good brothers and sisters got together to bury Him and rehouse their mother -
ummm...what?!
This is rambling gibberish...
: wincam Sun Sep 20, 2015 - 11:07:42
what ever is your hang up about thanking God for Mary and thanking Mary for Jesus - henceforth all nations shall call me blessed except of course some in those nations who will not - give over and come home now - wincam
you don't know that others haven't 'thanked' God for Mary. Being thankful for Mary does not include praying to her, having a statue of her, singing songs to her etc. Do you think Mary is the only woman to be called 'blessed'?
'give over and come home now'? means what to you? If it's about coming back to the RCC, it'll never happen for me. The Rcc is not my home and it never was. I doubt I could ever even step into a CC again. I'm sure I couldn't sit thru a Mass again. I can't even watch it fully on tv.
Mary could not have prevented her grown children from having thoughts of their own about Jesus and his first miracles. She was not omnipotent. They... including she were never told he would be doing miracles. Healing the sick, giving sight, raisling the dead. The Angel never told her when he visited her. They didn't even know he would teach in the temple at age 12. They had to go looking for Him.
Lets not forget... they were all Jews... who were expecting the Messiah to come victorious ready for battle, coming as a King who would rule with an iron hand. They were not expecting the neighbors to come mocking them because Jesus was healing people.
It makes perfect sense that they would go to get him, and question His actions. They had yet to see who He really was yet.
You need to wake up. I'm not giving over to something taught that is a fairy tale... Yes the some of your church fathers teach it... and they had the ignorant, down trodden and controlled believing it. But, I am not one of them. We can study and read for ourselves, even the Greek and Hebrew, and we don't have to just believe what we are told to by some hierarchy leadership. God is so good!
: wincam Sun Sep 20, 2015 - 11:30:19
of course if they were her other children she would have prevented them from thinking Jesus was beside Himself and mad and tried to restrain and as good brothers and sisters got together to bury Him and rehouse their mother - give over and come home now - wincam
ah... now Mary is the 'thought police'! Could be she kept them in chains for weeks on end - that could be why they aren't mentioned as much as Jesus... because of that they probably didn't want to 'house' Mary...(you could write a whole new book based on this lie).
They could have been at the site of His death. we aren't told things that we don't need to know - or that have nothing to do with our salvation. That's just something busybodies concern themselves with (along with Mary's sex life).
I'm sorry you don't understand and accept God's word as the truth.
An excellent article which says what we keep on saying.
http://www.jba.gr/Mary-perpetual-virginity.htm (http://www.jba.gr/Mary-perpetual-virginity.htm)
A summary
To sum it up: the doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary is a doctrine that has no foundation in the Word of God. Mary was indeed virgin when she gave birth to Jesus but she did not stay a virgin perpetually. She and Joseph got married and after the birth of Jesus, Joseph "knew her" and she bore to him kids. Is there anything bad in this? NO. This is all natural. God designed sex and having kids for marriage. This is His plan. In contrast, a perpetually virgin, yet married to a man, Mary would be completely unnatural. Furthermore we have shown that, despite tradition being very loud supporting the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity, this is not a doctrine the Word of God knows about. A perpetually virgin Mary is not the Mary of the New Testament. Instead the Mary of the New Testament, is a very godly woman that gave birth (the only virgin birth) to our Lord Jesus Christ and subsequently made a family with Joseph, her husband and a very godly man too.
: MeMyself Sun Sep 20, 2015 - 09:18:57
I don't get why this matters SO much to you, Wincam?
Your focus should not be on Mary's sex life, but on Jesus Christ and what HE did to set mankind free from sin and death!
+1
: chosenone Mon Sep 21, 2015 - 03:46:43
An excellent article which says what we keep on saying.
http://www.jba.gr/Mary-perpetual-virginity.htm (http://www.jba.gr/Mary-perpetual-virginity.htm)
A summary
To sum it up: the doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary is a doctrine that has no foundation in the Word of God. Mary was indeed virgin when she gave birth to Jesus but she did not stay a virgin perpetually. She and Joseph got married and after the birth of Jesus, Joseph "knew her" and she bore to him kids. Is there anything bad in this? NO. This is all natural. God designed sex and having kids for marriage. This is His plan. In contrast, a perpetually virgin, yet married to a man, Mary would be completely unnatural. Furthermore we have shown that, despite tradition being very loud supporting the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity, this is not a doctrine the Word of God knows about. A perpetually virgin Mary is not the Mary of the New Testament. Instead the Mary of the New Testament, is a very godly woman that gave birth (the only virgin birth) to our Lord Jesus Christ and subsequently made a family with Joseph, her husband and a very godly man too.
you are accepting this because of your acceptance of sola scripture and ignoring tradition and the early church fathers who knew better than you - there were many other things that are not written in the Bible but accepted by the early Christians but not by the johnny come lately, know all and know better so called reformers - wincam
: wincam Mon Sep 21, 2015 - 07:05:12
: chosenone Mon Sep 21, 2015 - 03:46:43
An excellent article which says what we keep on saying.
http://www.jba.gr/Mary-perpetual-virginity.htm (http://www.jba.gr/Mary-perpetual-virginity.htm)
A summary
To sum it up: the doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary is a doctrine that has no foundation in the Word of God. Mary was indeed virgin when she gave birth to Jesus but she did not stay a virgin perpetually. She and Joseph got married and after the birth of Jesus, Joseph "knew her" and she bore to him kids. Is there anything bad in this? NO. This is all natural. God designed sex and having kids for marriage. This is His plan. In contrast, a perpetually virgin, yet married to a man, Mary would be completely unnatural. Furthermore we have shown that, despite tradition being very loud supporting the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity, this is not a doctrine the Word of God knows about. A perpetually virgin Mary is not the Mary of the New Testament. Instead the Mary of the New Testament, is a very godly woman that gave birth (the only virgin birth) to our Lord Jesus Christ and subsequently made a family with Joseph, her husband and a very godly man too.
you are accepting this because of your acceptance of sola scripture and ignoring tradition and the early church fathers who knew better than you - there were many other things that are not written in the Bible but accepted by the early Christians but not by the johnny come lately, know all and know better so called reformers - wincam
again, I will ask it:
WHY does it matter?!
In the grand scope of eternity, what does it matter what Mary's sex life looked like?
What is changed if she had sex with her husband? Is our salvation lost? No? Then it.doesnt.matter!
of course it matters that we love what God loves and calls blessed and hate what God hates - so I am sure Jesus loved His mother and His mother loved Him - wincam
Whether or not Jesus loved His Mother and His Mother loved Him is not in question here, we're all in agreeance that Jesus loved His Mother, it's the exalting of His Mother beyond His birth that becomes questionable.
: Alan Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 05:39:49
Whether or not Jesus loved His Mother and His Mother loved Him is not in question here, we're all in agreeance that Jesus loved His Mother, it's the exalting of His Mother beyond His birth that becomes questionable.
so why don't and wont you and exalt her like God did and call her blessed like He did - wincam
: wincam Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 06:43:54
: Alan Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 05:39:49
Whether or not Jesus loved His Mother and His Mother loved Him is not in question here, we're all in agreeance that Jesus loved His Mother, it's the exalting of His Mother beyond His birth that becomes questionable.
so why don't and wont you and exalt her like God did and call her blessed like He did - wincam
Reread the highlighted portion of my quote please.
: wincam Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 06:43:54
: Alan Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 05:39:49
Whether or not Jesus loved His Mother and His Mother loved Him is not in question here, we're all in agreeance that Jesus loved His Mother, it's the exalting of His Mother beyond His birth that becomes questionable.
so why don't and wont you and exalt her like God did and call her blessed like He did - wincam
The Bible doesnt tell us to exalt her only Jesus. We are all blessed if we know Him, just as she was. Many were used in many amazing ways by God in the Bible, yet we dont exact them. Jesus never exalted her above the fact that she gave birth to Him.
: wincam Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 06:43:54
: Alan Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 05:39:49
Whether or not Jesus loved His Mother and His Mother loved Him is not in question here, we're all in agreeance that Jesus loved His Mother, it's the exalting of His Mother beyond His birth that becomes questionable.
so why don't and wont you and exalt her like God did and call her blessed like He did - wincam
Why don't we exalt the soldier that caused Jesus to marvel at His faith?
simply because he was not the mother of Jesus obviously - wincam
If you read the Bible... you see ... it's not what she did that caused her to be called Blessed. She clearly claimed it was what God did.
She is blessed because God chose her to bring forth His only begotten son. She didn't do anything on her own to be called blessed for. Or to cause worship toward her.
Again, if you read the Bible, you see that Jesus loved her, he did not magnify her or lift her up, or pray to her like He did His Father. He taught others to pray to the Father, in the garden, he cried out to the Father, on the cross, He cried out to His Father... after the resurrection, He went to the Father, He is seated with the Father.
Mary is not included in any of that. He left her here with the other believers to be filled with the Holy Spirit, cared for by the other believers as the church should. Not worshipped or lifted up. But, cared for.
of course what you mean Jesus did allow His holy one [mother] to see corruption - btw, His mother was Holy because of Him and so would you be - wincam
: wincam Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 12:12:47
simply because he was not the mother of Jesus obviously - wincam
That makes no sense. This man caused Jesus to wonder to stand in awe and we just ignore that? If we are to exalt Mary for carrying Him, why wouldn't we exalt a person that made Him stand back and say "WOW!" ?
Also, God is not a respecter of persons, and does not show favoritism so what would His feelings be that you wish to exalt Mary for simply obeying Him? Millions do it every day.
: wincam Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 12:12:47
simply because he was not the mother of Jesus obviously - wincam
All that you claim is entirely unbiblical as usual. No where does God say that Mary is more blessed that others in the Bible who were chosen by God for special purposes.
: chosenone Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 14:38:49
: wincam Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 12:12:47
simply because he was not the mother of Jesus obviously - wincam
All that you claim is entirely unbiblical as usual. No where does God say that Mary is more blessed that others in the Bible who were chosen by God for special purposes.
Mary performed the greatest miracle of all time she turned God into man and provided Him with her blood by which we are redeemed - this is and is not in the Bible - wincam
: wincam Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 15:21:41
: chosenone Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 14:38:49
: wincam Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 12:12:47
simply because he was not the mother of Jesus obviously - wincam
All that you claim is entirely unbiblical as usual. No where does God say that Mary is more blessed that others in the Bible who were chosen by God for special purposes.
Mary performed the greatest miracle of all time she turned God into man and provided Him with her blood by which we are redeemed - this is and is not in the Bible - wincam
oh.my.gosh!
Mary had the right heart, she was obedient and loved God.
SHE DID NOT TURN HIM INTO MAN!!!! You ascribe to HER what GOD did!
HER BLOOD redeemed us?! You are GREATLY deceived, Wincam...I am so very sorry. ::hiding::
: wincam Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 15:21:41
: chosenone Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 14:38:49
: wincam Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 12:12:47
simply because he was not the mother of Jesus obviously - wincam
All that you claim is entirely unbiblical as usual. No where does God say that Mary is more blessed that others in the Bible who were chosen by God for special purposes.
Mary performed the greatest miracle of all time she turned God into man and provided Him with her blood by which we are redeemed - this is and is not in the Bible - wincam
God did it bud.
you mean like He does everything else and we are busy doing nothing - wincam
: wincam Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 15:28:10
you mean like He does everything else and we are busy doing nothing - wincam
What are you talking about?
the glory is HIS, not Marys! She couldn't draw breath without God. You need to stop.
Romans 1:3King James Version (KJV)
3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
: wincam Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 15:21:41
: chosenone Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 14:38:49
: wincam Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 12:12:47
simply because he was not the mother of Jesus obviously - wincam
All that you claim is entirely unbiblical as usual. No where does God say that Mary is more blessed that others in the Bible who were chosen by God for special purposes.
Mary performed the greatest miracle of all time she turned God into man and provided Him with her blood by which we are redeemed - this is and is not in the Bible - wincam
You really are hung up on this arent you. Its ONLY the blood of Jesus that saves us.
It was God who performed the miracle not her, she incubated Jesus in her womb.
If she had said no then God would have chosen another young woman.
not just another woman but a virgin - so why a virgin - wincam
: wincam Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 17:01:56
not just another woman but a virgin - so why a virgin - wincam
She wasnt the only virgin, you know?
: wincam Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 15:21:41
: chosenone Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 14:38:49
: wincam Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 12:12:47
simply because he was not the mother of Jesus obviously - wincam
All that you claim is entirely unbiblical as usual. No where does God say that Mary is more blessed that others in the Bible who were chosen by God for special purposes.
Mary performed the greatest miracle of all time she turned God into man and provided Him with her blood by which we are redeemed - this is and is not in the Bible - wincam
you need to re-read what you posted - slowly and very carefully. This is what comes from idolatry. Some say it's 'harmless' to pray to other people (dead or alive) Harmless? Not by a long shot!
Mary (a human) performed no miracle(s).
She did NOT turn God into man.
She did NOT provide Him with her blood. The blood of the child comes from the father, not the mother. In this case, the Father.
You need to stop crediting a human for that which God has done.
Mary had no special powers or abilities. She was a young girl who loved the Lord and accepted His mission for her life.
'this is and is not in the Bible' - this speaks volumes. You have no idea what is in the Bible and what is not in it.
This is and is not in the Bible..
I'm starting to realize that this statement pretty much sums up most of what you say.... Well, half of it any way... the part where you said... "This is not in the bible". Your theology is a mess. ::juggle::
: wincam Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 17:01:56
not just another woman but a virgin - so why a virgin - wincam
why do you post these weird comments? if there's a question where is the '?' ?
can you post a sentence with a complete thought?
: kensington Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 22:03:58
This is and is not in the Bible..
I'm starting to realize that this statement pretty much sums up most of what you say.... Well, half of it any way... the part where you said... "This is not in the bible". Your theology is a mess. ::juggle::
I think he's making ill attempts at creating a basis for biblical truth, partly from church tradition and partly from attempts at baiting people into confessing what they believe may not be directly written in the scriptures; if we believe anything aside from what is written in black and white, then we can also believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary. ::frown::
: skeeter Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 17:15:26
: wincam Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 15:21:41
: chosenone Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 14:38:49
: wincam Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 12:12:47
simply because he was not the mother of Jesus obviously - wincam
All that you claim is entirely unbiblical as usual. No where does God say that Mary is more blessed that others in the Bible who were chosen by God for special purposes.
Mary performed the greatest miracle of all time she turned God into man and provided Him with her blood by which we are redeemed - this is and is not in the Bible - wincam
you need to re-read what you posted - slowly and very carefully. This is what comes from idolatry. Some say it's 'harmless' to pray to other people (dead or alive) Harmless? Not by a long shot!
Mary (a human) performed no miracle(s).
She did NOT turn God into man.
She did NOT provide Him with her blood. The blood of the child comes from the father, not the mother. In this case, the Father.
You need to stop crediting a human for that which God has done.
Mary had no special powers or abilities. She was a young girl who loved the Lord and accepted His mission for her life.
'this is and is not in the Bible' - this speaks volumes. You have no idea what is in the Bible and what is not in it.
nonsense - you have no idea what is really in the bible except what flesh and blood reveals to you - Jesus had no human father with human blood even though some say Mary lied when she said "thy father and I have sought Thee sorrowing" - wincam
that is because you do not understand the "is and is not" especially since your theology appears to be based on sola scripture alone and not so much on sola scripture but purporting to support it but really not and only when it suits - so there you go - don't run away for it is well known that some who have come to mock and sneer and jeer have stayed on to pray "Holy Mary/mother of God" - wincam
: wincam Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 15:21:41
: chosenone Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 14:38:49
: wincam Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 12:12:47
simply because he was not the mother of Jesus obviously - wincam
All that you claim is entirely unbiblical as usual. No where does God say that Mary is more blessed that others in the Bible who were chosen by God for special purposes.
Mary performed the greatest miracle of all time she turned God into man and provided Him with her blood by which we are redeemed - this is and is not in the Bible - wincam
Sorry, but
'The fetus and the mother do not share the same blood supply. They each have their own blood supply. In the placenta nutrients & oxygen leave the mother's blood supply and enter the the baby's blood but they are kept separate the entire time. The baby gets its blood by making it just like it makes any other organ. Instructions for making its blood (and all other body parts and organs) are encoded in its DNA. Because its DNA comes from both parents it is entire possible for a baby to a different blood type than its mother'.
not at all - the only Dna passed on were female XX chromosomes - wincam
: wincam Wed Sep 23, 2015 - 12:25:42
not at all - the only Dna passed on were female XX chromosomes - wincam
Where do you get this information?
: wincam Wed Sep 23, 2015 - 04:03:11
: skeeter Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 17:15:26
: wincam Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 15:21:41
Mary performed the greatest miracle of all time she turned God into man and provided Him with her blood by which we are redeemed - this is and is not in the Bible - wincam
you need to re-read what you posted - slowly and very carefully. This is what comes from idolatry. Some say it's 'harmless' to pray to other people (dead or alive) Harmless? Not by a long shot!
Mary (a human) performed no miracle(s).
She did NOT turn God into man.
She did NOT provide Him with her blood. The blood of the child comes from the father, not the mother. In this case, the Father.
You need to stop crediting a human for that which God has done.
Mary had no special powers or abilities. She was a young girl who loved the Lord and accepted His mission for her life.
'this is and is not in the Bible' - this speaks volumes. You have no idea what is in the Bible and what is not in it.
nonsense - you have no idea what is really in the bible except what flesh and blood reveals to you - Jesus had no human father with human blood even though some say Mary lied when she said "thy father and I have sought Thee sorrowing" - wincam
no, you post nonsense.
Did Adam have blood? Eve? where did that come from?
: kensington Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 22:03:58
This is and is not in the Bible..
I'm starting to realize that this statement pretty much sums up most of what you say.... Well, half of it any way... the part where you said... "This is not in the bible". Your theology is a mess. ::juggle::
of course it is in fact your theology that is in a mess as it is based on sola scripture and most denominations do not even accept what sola scripture is and says - wincam
Were Mary's other children also by virgin birth?
: Texas Conservative Wed Sep 23, 2015 - 13:23:45
Were Mary's other children also by virgin birth?
Mary did not have other children - this is neither in the Bible or Tradition but only in the imagination of some - wincam
unlike Jesus, Adam did not have a human mother and no did Eve - this you should have known as it is in the Bible - wincam
: wincam Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 08:38:30
unlike Jesus, Adam did not have a human mother and no did Eve - this you should have known as it is in the Bible - wincam
And you should have known that everyone knew this...
What in the world does this have to do with ANYTHING?!
: MeMyself Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 17:02:41
: wincam Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 17:01:56
not just another woman but a virgin - so why a virgin - wincam
She wasnt the only virgin, you know?
she certainly was the only virgin that conceived without knowing man at least until quite recently and the only virgin that conceived Jesus Christ - wincam
: wincam Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 08:49:27
: MeMyself Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 17:02:41
: wincam Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 17:01:56
not just another woman but a virgin - so why a virgin - wincam
She wasnt the only virgin, you know?
she certainly was the only virgin that conceived without knowing man at least until quite recently and the only virgin that conceived Jesus Christ - wincam
So? Had she told God no, He would have found another with a heart like hers. What is special about the story is her willingness to obey, no matter what. That's it though. I believe she would be MORTIFIED to know that people were putting her in an elevated status. She was a humble girl, who did not seek attention, accolade or praise.
: wincam Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 08:49:27
: MeMyself Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 17:02:41
: wincam Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 17:01:56
not just another woman but a virgin - so why a virgin - wincam
She wasnt the only virgin, you know?
she certainly was the only virgin that conceived without knowing man at least until quite recently and the only virgin that conceived Jesus Christ - wincam
And what the heck is "until quite recently" supposed to mean?
hope I haven't got it wrong but now it seems it is possible to conceive without having sex - wincam
: wincam Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 09:19:24
hope I haven't got it wrong but now it seems it is possible to conceive without having sex - wincam
Due to science, I guess. God isn't going to repeat the deal though. Jesus is His only begotten Son.
: wincam Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 09:19:24
hope I haven't got it wrong but now it seems it is possible to conceive without having sex - wincam
Ah yes, science, but that has no place in this equation.
: MeMyself Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 08:53:02
: wincam Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 08:49:27
: MeMyself Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 17:02:41
: wincam Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 17:01:56
not just another woman but a virgin - so why a virgin - wincam
She wasnt the only virgin, you know?
she certainly was the only virgin that conceived without knowing man at least until quite recently and the only virgin that conceived Jesus Christ - wincam
So? Had she told God no, He would have found another with a heart like hers. What is special about the story is her willingness to obey, no matter what. That's it though. I believe she would be MORTIFIED to know that people were putting her in an elevated status. She was a humble girl, who did not seek attention, accolade or praise.
maybe not for her sake but for God sake "henceforth all shall call me blessed" except Protestants of course - wincam
: wincam Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 09:27:15
: MeMyself Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 08:53:02
: wincam Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 08:49:27
: MeMyself Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 17:02:41
: wincam Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 17:01:56
not just another woman but a virgin - so why a virgin - wincam
She wasnt the only virgin, you know?
she certainly was the only virgin that conceived without knowing man at least until quite recently and the only virgin that conceived Jesus Christ - wincam
So? Had she told God no, He would have found another with a heart like hers. What is special about the story is her willingness to obey, no matter what. That's it though. I believe she would be MORTIFIED to know that people were putting her in an elevated status. She was a humble girl, who did not seek attention, accolade or praise.
maybe not for her sake but for God sake "henceforth all shall call me blessed" except Protestants of course - wincam
::doh::
You act like it was some romantic magical encounter for her. It wasn't! She was afraid!
I think she was very blessed that God chose her..just like I am blessed to be chosen by Him to be the mother of my children. All mothers and fathers are blessed.
It's not that Non-Catholics don't consider her blessed, we just don't make her into an idol like the Roman Church does.
it was indeed magical and romantic and she was not afraid as she herself said "my soul magnifies my Lord and my spirit rejoices and henceforth all [except Protestants of course]shall call me blessed just as the archangel on your behalf called me "blessed art thou"amongst women - a special woman to say the least imho and interpretation - wincam
: wincam Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 13:57:30
it was indeed magical and romantic and she was not afraid as she herself said "my soul magnifies my Lord and my spirit rejoices and henceforth all [except Protestants of course]shall call me blessed just as the archangel on your behalf called me "blessed art thou"amongst women - a special woman to say the least imho and interpretation - wincam
Oh my gosh...
: LexKnight Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 12:33:47
It's not that Non-Catholics don't consider her blessed, we just don't make her into an idol like the Roman Church does.
Yep.
: wincam Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 13:57:30
it was indeed magical and romantic and she was not afraid as she herself said "my soul magnifies my Lord and my spirit rejoices and henceforth all [except Protestants of course]shall call me blessed just as the archangel on your behalf called me "blessed art thou"amongst women - a special woman to say the least imho and interpretation - wincam
Myself is right.. Dude, let me ask you. If you were a chick, most likely a 14 year old, and you encounter an entity with awesome glory (I mean awesome in the sense that it's so powerful it gives you dread and great fear, like David seeing the giant Angel over Jerusalem), and this entity of God informs you that you have been chosen to bear the Son of God Himself, how exactly would you react? Would you immediately be overjoyed and be singing praises and Casting Crown songs? I doubt that...
She was surely afraid, there is a reason angels always say "Fear not," they know what their presence does to us who are not used to that stuff. That alone would bring ya to awe, but to hear that you're to be the vessel that would bring the Son of God into the world? My pants would probably be brown, and my body soaked in sweat.
She was blessed, but seriously can we stop making her into something more than she actually was? She wouldn't appreciate it, and the Lord doesn't appreciate it.
: chosenone Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 14:30:21
: LexKnight Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 12:33:47
It's not that Non-Catholics don't consider her blessed, we just don't make her into an idol like the Roman Church does.
Yep.
you may not but should since God did - go tell God HE got it all wrong just to annoy Protestants and favour Catholics - wincam
: MeMyself Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 09:20:59
: wincam Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 09:19:24
hope I haven't got it wrong but now it seems it is possible to conceive without having sex - wincam
Due to science, I guess. God isn't going to repeat the deal though. Jesus is His only begotten Son.
and lest we forget Mary's only son - wincam
: wincam Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 15:37:23
: MeMyself Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 09:20:59
: wincam Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 09:19:24
hope I haven't got it wrong but now it seems it is possible to conceive without having sex - wincam
Due to science, I guess. God isn't going to repeat the deal though. Jesus is His only begotten Son.
and lest we forget Mary's only son - wincam
no, just her first.
: wincam Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 15:37:23
: MeMyself Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 09:20:59
: wincam Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 09:19:24
hope I haven't got it wrong but now it seems it is possible to conceive without having sex - wincam
Due to science, I guess. God isn't going to repeat the deal though. Jesus is His only begotten Son.
and lest we forget Mary's only son - wincam
Ah, read this wrong the first time
Jesus had bothers. Sorry you refuse to believe that.
Though...
it doesn't change anything about who Mary was or what she did to acknowledge that fact.
She was a married woman and after she gave birth to Jesus, acted like one.
No harm, no foul, no sin, no shame.
: skeeter Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 15:58:53
: wincam Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 15:37:23
: MeMyself Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 09:20:59
: wincam Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 09:19:24
hope I haven't got it wrong but now it seems it is possible to conceive without having sex - wincam
Due to science, I guess. God isn't going to repeat the deal though. Jesus is His only begotten Son.
and lest we forget Mary's only son - wincam
no, just her first.
[/
no just her firstborn and no others - btw we are told that each year without fail she journeyed to Jerusalem - well planned was it - wincam
no just her firstborn and no others - btw we are told that each year without fail she journeyed to Jerusalem - well planned was it - wincam
what? why?
can you see why some think you are a troll? can you plz post in a complete thought / sentence so people know what you are talking about or asking?
: skeeter Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 17:43:20
no just her firstborn and no others - btw we are told that each year without fail she journeyed to Jerusalem - well planned was it - wincam
what? why?
can you see why some think you are a troll? can you plz post in a complete thought / sentence so people know what you are talking about or asking?
of course, naturally and understandingly difficult for you to latch on to or follow since without batting an eyelid you accept she had many other children all younger than Jesus of course - wincam
: wincam Wed Sep 23, 2015 - 20:00:37
: skeeter Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 17:43:20
no just her firstborn and no others - btw we are told that each year without fail she journeyed to Jerusalem - well planned was it - wincam
what? why?
can you see why some think you are a troll? can you plz post in a complete thought / sentence so people know what you are talking about or asking?
of course, naturally and understandingly difficult for you to latch on to or follow since without batting an eyelid you accept she had many other children all younger than Jesus of course - wincam
yes because its what God teaches us.
: chosenone Wed Sep 23, 2015 - 20:15:16
: wincam Wed Sep 23, 2015 - 20:00:37
: skeeter Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 17:43:20
no just her firstborn and no others - btw we are told that each year without fail she journeyed to Jerusalem - well planned was it - wincam
what? why?
can you see why some think you are a troll? can you plz post in a complete thought / sentence so people know what you are talking about or asking?
of course, naturally and understandingly difficult for you to latch on to or follow since without batting an eyelid you accept she had many other children all younger than Jesus of course - wincam
yes because its what God teaches us.
not really - you can't be serious - wincam
: wincam Wed Sep 23, 2015 - 20:39:13
: chosenone Wed Sep 23, 2015 - 20:15:16
: wincam Wed Sep 23, 2015 - 20:00:37
: skeeter Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 17:43:20
no just her firstborn and no others - btw we are told that each year without fail she journeyed to Jerusalem - well planned was it - wincam
what? why?
can you see why some think you are a troll? can you plz post in a complete thought / sentence so people know what you are talking about or asking?
of course, naturally and understandingly difficult for you to latch on to or follow since without batting an eyelid you accept she had many other children all younger than Jesus of course - wincam
yes because its what God teaches us.
not really - you can't be serious - wincam
The Bible says that Mary and Joseph had sex like any other couple and that Jesus had brothers and sisters. Loads of verses have been posted which show this.
: chosenone Wed Sep 23, 2015 - 22:03:39
: wincam Wed Sep 23, 2015 - 20:39:13
: chosenone Wed Sep 23, 2015 - 20:15:16
: wincam Wed Sep 23, 2015 - 20:00:37
: skeeter Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 17:43:20
no just her firstborn and no others - btw we are told that each year without fail she journeyed to Jerusalem - well planned was it - wincam
what? why?
can you see why some think you are a troll? can you plz post in a complete thought / sentence so people know what you are talking about or asking?
of course, naturally and understandingly difficult for you to latch on to or follow since without batting an eyelid you accept she had many other children all younger than Jesus of course - wincam
yes because its what God teaches us.
not really - you can't be serious - wincam
The Bible says that Mary and Joseph had sex like any other couple and that Jesus had brothers and sisters. Loads of verses have been posted which show this.
no no it is you and other Protestants that say so by adding and subtracting which the Bible says you should not do - wincam
: wincam Fri Sep 25, 2015 - 11:49:13
no no it is you and other Protestants that say so by adding and subtracting which the Bible says you should not do - wincam
Luke 8:19 Now Jesus' mother and brothers came to see him, but they were not able to get near him because of the crowd.
Matthew 12:46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him.
Mark 3:31 Then Jesus' mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him.
Luke 8:20 Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to see you."
and to take away the silly argument that "brothers" means friends and not blood relatives that came from his earthly parents:
Luke 8:21 He replied, "My mother and brothers are those who hear God's word and put it into practice."
here He makes the distinguished difference for us. Brothers are now not just those who were carried by His mother, but those that obey and are included in the family of God.
: wincam Fri Sep 25, 2015 - 11:49:13
: chosenone Wed Sep 23, 2015 - 22:03:39
: wincam Wed Sep 23, 2015 - 20:39:13
: chosenone Wed Sep 23, 2015 - 20:15:16
: wincam Wed Sep 23, 2015 - 20:00:37
: skeeter Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 17:43:20
no just her firstborn and no others - btw we are told that each year without fail she journeyed to Jerusalem - well planned was it - wincam
what? why?
can you see why some think you are a troll? can you plz post in a complete thought / sentence so people know what you are talking about or asking?
of course, naturally and understandingly difficult for you to latch on to or follow since without batting an eyelid you accept she had many other children all younger than Jesus of course - wincam
yes because its what God teaches us.
not really - you can't be serious - wincam
The Bible says that Mary and Joseph had sex like any other couple and that Jesus had brothers and sisters. Loads of verses have been posted which show this.
no no it is you and other Protestants that say so by adding and subtracting which the Bible says you should not do - wincam
Its the RC church that adds to the Bible and ignore the bits it doesnt like. All that has been quoted here from the Bible says that Mary and joseph had sex after Jesus was born(quoted loads of times)and had children.
WHICH Tradition?
RCC's? Before 600 AD, after 600 AD, after 1950?
EOC's (which has no dogma of the Immaculate Conception or Co-Redeemer, etc.)?
Anglican Tradition?
Lutheran Confessions?
Reformed Tradition?
WHICH?
Why not accept Scripture instead? Or perhaps Jesus and the Apostles rather than the "Tradition" of one single, individual denomination (the RCC) since 1950?
Questions I hope you'll answer.....
- Josiah
: wincam Wed Sep 23, 2015 - 20:00:37
: skeeter Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 17:43:20
no just her firstborn and no others - btw we are told that each year without fail she journeyed to Jerusalem - well planned was it - wincam
what? why?
can you see why some think you are a troll? can you plz post in a complete thought / sentence so people know what you are talking about or asking?
of course, naturally and understandingly difficult for you to latch on to or follow since without batting an eyelid you accept she had many other children all younger than Jesus of course - wincam
the difficulty in understanding or following is because of your posting of incomplete sentences and / or thoughts.
I never even considered thinking or challenging that Mary had other children because
the Bible says she did. Of course, I also didn't have any clue on that until I started reading/studying the Bible in my late 20s. I was raised Catholic - not to ask questions or question what the 'Church' told me to believe.
Considering that Mary was a virgin when she conceived Jesus, then yes, all other children were younger than Jesus. By nature that would be true.
It was far beyond my thinking to question that she never had a physical side to her marriage to Joseph. That is inconsistent with the RCC anyway. Joseph would have been able to get an annulment in that case.
How can the RCC honestly hold both views? marriage is to have children on 1 hand and then on the other, not for Mary in her marriage.
note very carefully what it says at Lk.2:41 - wincam
: wincam Fri Sep 25, 2015 - 14:17:18
note very carefully what it says at Lk.2:41 - wincam
do you think it holds some secret meaning? Joseph was known on earth as the earthly father of Jesus. Or do you think Mary, Joseph and Jesus went around loudly proclaiming that God was His natural father?
Certainly would have been difficult for Joseph to remain celibate throughout their marriage.
Personally, if it's revealed to me that my fiancee is pregnant with a child given to her by God and I'm called to continue with the marriage, I would do so and respect her enough to wait until the child is conceived. But afterwards... I'd be expecting to get intimate with my wife. If she refused, I wouldn't be able to continue in the marriage. Considering a marriage is considered a marriage when the 2 consummate it physically, I couldn't consider her my wife if I can't be intimate with her. I can't see the Lord restricting him in that.
note very carefully what it says at Lk.2:41 - wincam
EXACTLY! Not a word about Mary being a PERPETUAL virgin. NOTHING in Scripture says so..... NOTHING known from Mary says so...... NOTHING from Joseph says so (the only two who likely would know if this is true)..... NOTHING from Jesus says so... NOTHING from any of the 12 to 14 Apostles says so..... NOTHING from anyone who had personally met Mary or Joseph says so.
And yes, the ORIGINAL tradition appears to be respectful SILENCE..... That appears to be the "Tradition" of Scripture, of Mary, of Joseph, of Jesus, of all the Apostles, of all the people in the First Century...... SILENCE. Just like the respectful people here are silent about the "marriage bed" of all the mothers here. The official position of the 49,998 of the 50,000 denominations some Catholic claim to exist: SILENCE (the same position as Scripture, as Mary, as Joseph, as Jesus, as the Apostles, as ALL who lived in the First Century, as all here are about the "marriage bed" of all the people here: SILENCE), only 2 of those denominations insist on SHOUTING - as DOGMA - the private sex life of this women they CLAIM to respect and then ADMIT they have NOTHING - absolutely NOTHING - to support this profoundly personal tidbit of bedroom information as true (nor do they same to give a rip whether it's true).
Pax
- Josiah
Good point.
: skeeter Fri Sep 25, 2015 - 15:29:02
: wincam Fri Sep 25, 2015 - 14:17:18
note very carefully what it says at Lk.2:41 - wincam
do you think it holds some secret meaning? Joseph was known on earth as the earthly father of Jesus. Or do you think Mary, Joseph and Jesus went around loudly proclaiming that God was His natural father?
Jesus most certainly did - it seems that Joseph and Mary and many others were advised not to do so openly but allow each and all to discover and admit this for themselves - even His brethren it seems were not told but thought He was mad and tried to restrain Him - wincam
: wincam Sun Sep 27, 2015 - 11:23:02
: skeeter Fri Sep 25, 2015 - 15:29:02
: wincam Fri Sep 25, 2015 - 14:17:18
note very carefully what it says at Lk.2:41 - wincam
do you think it holds some secret meaning? Joseph was known on earth as the earthly father of Jesus. Or do you think Mary, Joseph and Jesus went around loudly proclaiming that God was His natural father?
Jesus most certainly did - it seems that Joseph and Mary and many others were advised not to do so openly but allow each and all to discover and admit this for themselves - even His brethren it seems were not told but thought He was mad and tried to restrain Him - wincam
so you've had some revelation that Jesus - as a child growing up - boasted about His Father in heaven? I only remember 1 incident when Mary and Joseph lost track of Him - He spoke of it to Mary and Joseph who already knew about it. Maybe you remember more times He spoke of it?
Who are the 'many others' who knew and were advised not to speak of it openly? (prior to the time of His ministry)
'His brethern' - His brothers most likely knew nothing about it and that probably added to them thinking He was a bit off. Do you think Mary and Joseph told their other kids how different and special Jesus was? (and they weren't)
: skeeter Sun Sep 27, 2015 - 22:53:22
: wincam Sun Sep 27, 2015 - 11:23:02
: skeeter Fri Sep 25, 2015 - 15:29:02
: wincam Fri Sep 25, 2015 - 14:17:18
note very carefully what it says at Lk.2:41 - wincam
do you think it holds some secret meaning? Joseph was known on earth as the earthly father of Jesus. Or do you think Mary, Joseph and Jesus went around loudly proclaiming that God was His natural father?
Jesus most certainly did - it seems that Joseph and Mary and many others were advised not to do so openly but allow each and all to discover and admit this for themselves - even His brethren it seems were not told but thought He was mad and tried to restrain Him - wincam
so you've had some revelation that Jesus - as a child growing up - boasted about His Father in heaven? I only remember 1 incident when Mary and Joseph lost track of Him - He spoke of it to Mary and Joseph who already knew about it. Maybe you remember more times He spoke of it?
Who are the 'many others' who knew and were advised not to speak of it openly? (prior to the time of His ministry)
'His brethern' - His brothers most likely knew nothing about it and that probably added to them thinking He was a bit off. Do you think Mary and Joseph told their other kids how different and special Jesus was? (and they weren't)
who added [prior to the time of His ministry] - wincam
: wincam Mon Sep 28, 2015 - 03:45:10
who added [prior to the time of His ministry] - wincam
I did.
: skeeter Mon Sep 28, 2015 - 18:25:53
: wincam Mon Sep 28, 2015 - 03:45:10
who added [prior to the time of His ministry] - wincam
I did.
I did not - wincam
John 2:13
And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves,
and the changers of money sitting:
15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords,
he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen;
and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
16 And said unto them that sold doves,
Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
17 And his disciples remembered that it was written,
The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.
Now where do we find that
"The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up."
Psalms 69:7
7 Because for thy sake I have borne reproach;
shame hath covered my face.
8 I am become a stranger unto my brethren,
and an alien unto my mother's children.
9 For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up;
and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me.
AV - mother 214, dam 5, parting 1; 220
1) mother
1a) of humans
2) of the same womb
"and an alien unto my mother's children"
_____________________________________________________________________
Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling,
and to present you faultless
before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
To the only wise God our Saviour,
be glory and majesty, dominion and power,
both now and ever. Amen.
::eatingpopcorn:
: wincam Sun Sep 20, 2015 - 11:30:19
of course if they were her other children she would have prevented them from thinking Jesus was beside Himself and mad and tried to restrain and as good brothers and sisters got together to bury Him and rehouse their mother - give over and come home now - wincam
Could you answer the question I asked ::pondering:: ???
Matt.13:33
Another parable spake he unto them;
The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven,
which a woman took,
and hid in three measures of meal,
till the whole was leavened.
Hosea 7:4
They are all adulterers, as an oven heated by the baker,
who ceaseth from raising after he hath kneaded the dough,
until it be leavened.
Leaven Puffs up, because it fermenates; it's a spoiler
bread baked with yeast, leaven will mold,
unleavened Bread won't
I don't know how many saw how closely,
the words of Paul - Parallels of the words of Christ
Matt.13:33
Another parable spake he unto them;
The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven,
which a woman took,
and hid in three measures of meal,
(or will be leavened / infiltrated by)
till the whole was leavened.
1Cor.5:6
Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
???
Jesus it seems had no such problem - of course there have been eunuchs for God's sake and the angel could easily have tinkered as He did when Elizabeth;s husband was struck dumb - wincam
: wincam Sat Sep 19, 2015 - 16:10:45
via google see [Virgin Mary/Church Fathers] - should we accept Tradition and early Church Fathers or much latter day reformers - wincam
The Bible comes before Church Fathers and later Reformers. But, did the Church Fathers really teach Mary remained a virgin? Do you have any reliable testimony from before the 4th century?
: skeeter Sun Sep 27, 2015 - 22:53:22
: wincam Sun Sep 27, 2015 - 11:23:02
: skeeter Fri Sep 25, 2015 - 15:29:02
: wincam Fri Sep 25, 2015 - 14:17:18
note very carefully what it says at Lk.2:41 - wincam
do you think it holds some secret meaning? Joseph was known on earth as the earthly father of Jesus. Or do you think Mary, Joseph and Jesus went around loudly proclaiming that God was His natural father?
Jesus most certainly did - it seems that Joseph and Mary and many others were advised not to do so openly but allow each and all to discover and admit this for themselves - even His brethren it seems were not told but thought He was mad and tried to restrain Him - wincam
so you've had some revelation that Jesus - as a child growing up - boasted about His Father in heaven? I only remember 1 incident when Mary and Joseph lost track of Him - He spoke of it to Mary and Joseph who already knew about it. Maybe you remember more times He spoke of it?
Who are the 'many others' who knew and were advised not to speak of it openly? (prior to the time of His ministry)
'His brethern' - His brothers most likely knew nothing about it and that probably added to them thinking He was a bit off. Do you think Mary and Joseph told their other kids how different and special Jesus was? (and they weren't)
stop adding to the post to try and justify your stance - who said anything about [prior to the time of His ministry] - wincam
: wincam Thu Sep 01, 2016 - 05:24:51
: skeeter Sun Sep 27, 2015 - 22:53:22
: wincam Sun Sep 27, 2015 - 11:23:02
: skeeter Fri Sep 25, 2015 - 15:29:02
: wincam Fri Sep 25, 2015 - 14:17:18
note very carefully what it says at Lk.2:41 - wincam
do you think it holds some secret meaning? Joseph was known on earth as the earthly father of Jesus. Or do you think Mary, Joseph and Jesus went around loudly proclaiming that God was His natural father?
Jesus most certainly did - it seems that Joseph and Mary and many others were advised not to do so openly but allow each and all to discover and admit this for themselves - even His brethren it seems were not told but thought He was mad and tried to restrain Him - wincam
so you've had some revelation that Jesus - as a child growing up - boasted about His Father in heaven? I only remember 1 incident when Mary and Joseph lost track of Him - He spoke of it to Mary and Joseph who already knew about it. Maybe you remember more times He spoke of it?
Who are the 'many others' who knew and were advised not to speak of it openly? (prior to the time of His ministry)
'His brethern' - His brothers most likely knew nothing about it and that probably added to them thinking He was a bit off. Do you think Mary and Joseph told their other kids how different and special Jesus was? (and they weren't)
stop adding to the post to try and justify your stance - who said anything about [prior to the time of His ministry] - wincam1
wincam - the post of mine that you replied to is about 11 months old...
it is never too late to come back home again - btw it just is not in the bible that Mary had children other than just Jesus - wincam
Only a fool would believe that Mary was sinless in lieu of Romans 5:12... "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." Of course, the Catholics, in an attempt to cover up one lie, had to fabricate another lie--the Assumption of Mary. If Mary never sinned, then how could she die, because the Bible says the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23).
Rom 5:12-19 is not about personal sin but original sin. The fall from grace that Adam's fall inflicted on all mankind.
Verses 15-19
For if many died through one man's trespass.... For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation,.... because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man..... as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men..... For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners....
Paul is contrasting the effect of Adam's fall on mankind (death) to the effect of Christ restoring grace (life).
If, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. (vs 17)
: winsome Mon Dec 18, 2017 - 09:21:49
Rom 5:12-19 is not about personal sin but original sin. The fall from grace that Adam's fall inflicted on all mankind.
Yes, ALL mankind. This INCLUDES mary.
She was a sinner just like i am and just like you are.
Remember, if we deny we sin we call God a liar.
This would include mary.
Only a fool would believe that Mary was sinless in lieu of Romans 5:12... "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." Of course, the Catholics, in an attempt to cover up one lie, had to fabricate another lie--the Assumption of Mary. If Mary never sinned, then how could she die, because the Bible says the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23).
The bigger-than-life Mary of Roman Catholicism is a FALSE portrayal of the Biblical Mary (the Bible never portrays Mary as being anything more than a godly woman used by God).
: chosenone Sun Sep 20, 2015 - 04:47:05
what is being queried is why some do not believe it when the early Christians did and still do - are we to presume that the Church did in fact fail and that some very much later date reformer reformed it and that Christ's prayer went and goes unanswered - no way and not at all imho -
Of course the early church failed, even when Paul was alive churches were going off course(for example some going back into works and telling others that they should get circumcised) hence his need to write them and correct them. Men are fallible which is why we need Gods word as our guidance and plumb line.
Wasnt it St Augustine who declared that God goes out of the room when we have sex???? Yep VERY fallible.
There is some confusion regarding the indefectibility of the Catholic church here. The Catholic church cannot fail. The Catholic church is a society of believers, the buildings are the place of worship. And so, those holding to every teaching of the Catholic church, they are the Immaculate Catholic church.
St. Athanasius: "Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful,
they would be the true Church."
Fr. William Jurgens: "At one point in the Church's history, only a few years before Gregory's [Nazianz] present preaching (+380 A.D.), perhaps the number of Catholic bishops in possession of sees, as opposed to Arian bishops in possession of sees, was no greater than something between 1% and 3% of the total. Had doctrine been determined
by popularity, today we should all be deniers of Christ and opponents of the Spirit."
Fr. William Jurgens: "In the time of the Emperor Valens (4th century), Basil was virtually the only orthodox Bishop in all the East who succeeded in retaining charge of his see...
If it has no other importance for modern man, a knowledge of the history of Arianism should demonstrate at least that the Catholic Church takes no account of popularity and numbers in shaping and maintaining doctrine: else, we should long since have had to abandon Basil and Hilary and Athanasius and Liberius and Ossius and call ourselves after Arius."
Anyone who departs from the Catholic Faith in the least degree, they have placed themselves outside the Catholic church, the rest of the members are not effected!
Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 9), June 29, 1896: "The practice of the Church has always been the same, and that with the consenting judgment [i.e. consensus] of the holy fathers who certainly were accustomed to hold as having no part of Catholic communion and
as banished from the Church whoever had departed in even the least way from the doctrine proposed by the authentic Magisterium."
Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 9), June 29, 1896: "
No one who merely disbelieves in all these (heresies) can for that reason regard himself as a Catholic or call himself one. For there may be or arise some other heresies, which are not set out in this work of ours, and if anyone holds to a single one of these he is not a Catholic."
Indefectibility of the Catholic church is found in the
faithful remnant. Jesus said that his words i.e. the catholic faith, would not pass away. Jesus promised that He will be with His church, the remnant, even to the consummation of the world.
2 John 1:2 For the sake of the truth which dwelleth in us,
and shall be with us for ever.
Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away,
but my words shall not pass away.
John 14:26 But the Paraclete,
the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.
Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:
and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.The gates of hell are heretics, liars.
Pope Vigilius, Second Council of Constantinople, 553: "... we bear in mind what was promised about the holy Church and Him who said the gates of Hell will not prevail against it (by these we understand the death-dealing tongues of heretics)..."
Pope St. Leo IX, Sept. 2, 1053: "The holy Church built upon a rock, that is Christ, and upon Peter... because by the gates of Hell, that is, by the disputations of heretics which lead the vain to destruction,
it would never be overcome."
Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208: "By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church,
not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved."
: winsome Mon Dec 18, 2017 - 09:21:49
Rom 5:12-19 is not about personal sin but original sin. The fall from grace that Adam's fall inflicted on all mankind.
Verses 15-19
For if many died through one man's trespass.... For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation,.... because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man..... as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men..... For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners....
Paul is contrasting the effect of Adam's fall on mankind (death) to the effect of Christ restoring grace (life).
If, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. (vs 17)
Adam and Eve were created immaculate and perfect before the fall. And in order for Jesus to take flesh from Mary, she would have to be without original sin. God has no part with sin or corruption.
Genesis 1:26-27,31 And he said: Let us make man
to our image and likeness: ... And God created man
to his own image:
to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them. ...And God saw all the things that he had made,
and they were very good. And the evening and morning were the sixth day.
: Isaias Wed Feb 21, 2018 - 19:18:35
Adam and Eve were created immaculate and perfect before the fall. And in order for Jesus to take flesh from Mary, she would have to be without original sin. God has no part with sin or corruption.
Genesis 1:26-27,31 And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: ... And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them. ...And God saw all the things that he had made, and they were very good. And the evening and morning were the sixth day.
WOW! Something we agree on.
: winsome Thu Feb 22, 2018 - 07:38:13
WOW! Something we agree on.
And in contrast, something I
disagree on. Mary was 100% human, just like you or I. Jesus 100% human nature had the ability to sin but did not, He resisted all temptation.
: Alan Thu Feb 22, 2018 - 07:49:27
And in contrast, something I disagree on. Mary was 100% human, just like you or I. Jesus 100% human nature had the ability to sin but did not, He resisted all temptation.
Mary had the ability to sin, as did Adam and Eve.
: winsome Thu Feb 22, 2018 - 07:59:49
Mary had the ability to sin, as did Adam and Eve.
How can you be certain she lived her life sinless? Who was she prior to becoming pregnant with Jesus?
: Alan Thu Feb 22, 2018 - 08:08:01
How can you be certain she lived her life sinless? Who was she prior to becoming pregnant with Jesus?
We believe by faith, but a faith based on reason, Scripture and Tradition
Salvation is not just being raised up from sin. It is being raised up to glory to share the in life of God, to an intimate union with God.
"His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature." (2Pet 1:3-4).
This is a gift from God - grace, the grace that only Jesus can give.
"Be holy because I am holy".
How holy is God? – 100%
"Be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect"
How perfect is our heavenly Father? – 100%
We must be 100% holy and perfect without even the slightest hint of a shadow of a spot or wrinkle if we are to be united with an all holy God. Pretence (covering up) will not do. We must be totally purified, full of grace.
When Gabriel greeted Mary he said
Chaire Ketcharitomen, which is often badly translated as
Hail, favoured one.
Kecharitomene is the perfect passive participle of the Greek
charitoo. It means endowed with grace. The Greek perfect tense denotes something which took place in the past and continues in the present.
"It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase
kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament).
Mary was completely, perfectly, enduringly filled with grace from the moment of her conception. She was not just saved from the effects of original sin but was made fit for an intimate union with God, both in this life (she carried God in her womb) and in the life to come.
She was totally holy as a fitting mother for Jesus. Why would God allow his only Son to be born by a fallen sinful woman when he could fill her with grace to be holy and pure?
As Job said "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? There is not one." (Job 14:4).
As Mary herself said "he who is mighty has done great things for me" (Lk 1:49)
The original ark of the Covenant was made from incorruptible wood and covered inside and out with pure gold, yet the shenikar cloud only rested on the ark not inside as God dwelt in Mary's womb. Thus the anti-type was incorruptible.
Moreover Jude says: Now to him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you without blemish before the presence of his glory with rejoicing, to the only God, our Saviour through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and for ever. (Jude 24-25) Why would Jesus not keep his mother from falling and to present her without blemish before the presence of his glory?
"Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sara but from Mary, virgin not only undefiled but a virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin" (Ambrose of Milan,
Commentary on Psalm 118 22::30; c. 387 AD).
"Having excepted the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom, on account of the honor of the Lord, I wish to have absolutely no question when treating of sins--for how do we know what abundance of grace for the total overcoming of sin was conferred upon her, who merited to conceive and bear him in whom there was no sin?--so, I say, with the exception of the Virgin, if we could have gathered together all those holy men and women, when they were living here, and had asked them whether they were without sin, what do we suppose would have been their answer?" (St. Augustine
Nature and Grace 36:45, c. 415 AD).
Thank you winsome, appreciated.
: winsome Thu Feb 22, 2018 - 07:38:13
WOW! Something we agree on.
You imply that there are things that you and I disagree on. I am very curious to know what that is? Please use cites to support you claims, not just opinion.
: Isaias Thu Feb 22, 2018 - 11:38:13
You imply that there are things that you and I disagree on. I am very curious to know what that is? Please use cites to support you claims, not just opinion.
Do we agree that Pope Francis is the legitimate successor of St. Peter and the Head of the Catholic Church on earth?
Or do you believe, as the website you keep pushing claims, he is an apostate and an Antipope?
: winsome Thu Feb 22, 2018 - 12:16:45
Do we agree that Pope Francis is the legitimate successor of St. Peter and the Head of the Catholic Church on earth?
Or do you believe, as the website you keep pushing claims, he is an apostate and an Antipope?
I asked you on another thread, "Do you consider yourself Catholic"?
: Isaias Thu Feb 22, 2018 - 12:19:55
I asked you on another thread, "Do you consider yourself Catholic"?
Ah yes, another typical Protestant response. Don't answer questions, only Catholics have to do that!
: winsome Thu Feb 22, 2018 - 12:22:34
Ah yes, another typical Protestant response. Don't answer questions, only Catholics have to do that!
Trust me I am going to answer,
but for the record, are you catholic?
: Isaias Thu Feb 22, 2018 - 12:27:18
Trust me I am going to answer, but for the record, are you catholic?
I've answered that in another thread.
And no, I won't trust you. You are slippery and evasive.
church fathers? yawn.
The bigger-than-life Mary of Roman Catholicism is a FALSE portrayal of the Biblical Mary (the Bible never portrays Mary as being anything more than a godly woman used by God).
I have yet to see one Bible verse that supports all of your personal heretical beliefs Isaias.
: kensington Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 12:43:06
If you read the Bible... you see ... it's not what she did that caused her to be called Blessed. She clearly claimed it was what God did.
She is blessed because God chose her to bring forth His only begotten son. She didn't do anything on her own to be called blessed for. Or to cause worship toward her.
Again, if you read the Bible, you see that Jesus loved her, he did not magnify her or lift her up, or pray to her like He did His Father. He taught others to pray to the Father, in the garden, he cried out to the Father, on the cross, He cried out to His Father... after the resurrection, He went to the Father, He is seated with the Father.
Mary is not included in any of that. He left her here with the other believers to be filled with the Holy Spirit, cared for by the other believers as the church should. Not worshipped or lifted up. But, cared for.
You said that we worship Mary, we did not say that. Its called veneration. Who said that we say Mary is Blessed because of what she did. She didn't. Its because of God alone.
Luke 1:49 Because he that is mighty,
hath done great things to me; and holy is his name.
We know that God saved her in a greater way, without original sin. You say that God left Mary to be filled with the Holy Ghost and this is true. And for one reason. The Holy Ghost could not come on Pentecost Sunday, unless Mary was there in the upper room and this is because just as Jesus came through Mary, the Holy Ghost operates the same way. And by the way, the last words of Jesus on the Holy Cross, was to Mary and John. Jesus gave His mother to St. John and the world. Jesus does not call John by name nor His mother but son and woman. This is to let everyone know that all men must follow the same way Jesus took. Jesus was devoted to Mary for 30 years, living with His mother. With the exception of three years to preach the gospel, that is Jesus' whole life on earth!
John 14:6
Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me."
Ecclesiasticus 24:24-25
I am the mother of fair love, and of fear, and of knowledge, and of holy hope.
In me is all grace of the way and of the truth, in me is all hope of life and of virtue."
: Isaias Fri Feb 23, 2018 - 20:09:09
You said that we worship Mary, we did not say that. Its called veneration.
What difference does it make. You have no business to venerate her either.
: AVZ Sat Feb 24, 2018 - 00:54:22
What difference does it make. You have no business to venerate her either.
Do you respect anyone in your life on earth?
: Isaias Sat Feb 24, 2018 - 14:41:17
Do you respect anyone in your life on earth?
LOL. Key words here are "on earth".
Respect and veneration and worship are not the same.
"Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary." Doesn't this sound like worship?
1) You are TOLD to pray to her in your ccc! ( CCC 2675, 2679 ).When we look in the Bible, we find that prayer is directed to God alone. There is not ONE example of a Christian addressing prayers to mary or the "saints", or to those who are dead. Not one. What you are doing is asking those who are physically not here and are unable to see or affect the affairs of mankind on earth to do what is attributed to God only.
Can we pray to Mary or other saints as we do to God? Can some person who is at the other end of the universe hear our prayers? Isn't this something that is exclusively reserved to God? How can a saint hear hundreds or thousands of prayers at one time? No matter how great a saint they were, they are not omniscient nor can they answer our prayers (it is a known fact there are more prayers offered to Mary than to God by Catholics). This is seen by the statement by Bishop Liqouri "We often more quickly obtain what we ask by calling on the name of Mary than by invoking that of Jesus. She...is our Salvation, our Life, our Hope, our Counsel, our Refuge, our Help" (The Glories of Mary by Bishop Alphonse de Ligouri (Brooklyn: Redemptorist Fathers, pp. 254, 257).