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it has not been realised that the Holy Spirit was given to the Apostles and early Christians as they did not have the scriptures as we do to search to see if these things be so - see Jn.14:16,17and 26 and 15:26 and 16:7 and 13 - wincam

Joh 17:20  Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Joh 17:21  That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh 17:22  And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Joh 17:23  I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Joh 17:24  Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
Joh 17:25  O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
Joh 17:26  And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
Joh 16:12  I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Joh 16:13  Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Joh 16:14  He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Joh 16:15  All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

"No Holy Ghost needed – we have the Scriptures"


Without ears to hear and eyes to see they study the Scripture in vain.
Never knowing the Father Son or Spirit, unable to understand Scripture.
Under a veil of darkness.
Lord have mercy.

Wincam, they had Genesis-Malachi. What do you think the Bereans studied to confirm their teaching?

: wincam  Mon Nov 09, 2015 - 16:26:17
it has not been realised that the Holy Spirit was given to the Apostles and early Christians as they did not have the scriptures as we do to search to see if these things be so - see Jn.14:16,17and 26 and 15:26 and 16:7 and 13 - wincam

What a frightening thought.

There are rarely 2 people who are members of Grace Centered what can read scriptures and come to the same conclusion about what they read.

If anything , we need the Holy Spirits divine guidance for understanding as we pray on what we read.

: Barley  Mon Nov 16, 2015 - 22:31:45

Joh 17:20  Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Joh 17:21  That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh 17:22  And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Joh 17:23  I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Joh 17:24  Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
Joh 17:25  O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
Joh 17:26  And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
Joh 16:12  I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Joh 16:13  Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Joh 16:14  He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Joh 16:15  All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

"No Holy Ghost needed – we have the Scriptures"


Without ears to hear and eyes to see they study the Scripture in vain.
Never knowing the Father Son or Spirit, unable to understand Scripture.
Under a veil of darkness.
Lord have mercy.

I fully agree.

It is the Holy sprit that brings us into all truth concerning the word of God  With out the anointing of the Holy Spirit the Bible is just another book that  says a lot of religious things, but it is only carnal knowledge. Only the Holy Spirit reveals Christ in the heart.  giving true revelation. 

Jesus was not joking when He said you must be Born again. We need the Holy Spirit to guide us always

Only  those who are truly of the Spirit will understand what I just sad.

: Rella  Tue Nov 17, 2015 - 06:44:13If anything , we need the Holy Spirits divine guidance for understanding as we pray on what we read.

Yes, this is true Rella~The gentleman that started this thread is senile, past understanding the simplest of truth...so what do we expect from such men? Not much. The holy apostle believed otherwise and that is what moved him to pray for all saints this precious prayer that ALL of us stand in desperate need of:

Ephesians 1:16-18~"Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,"

Now you know why this fellow has so much trouble with simple scriptures~ he's relying on his own abilities to understand the hidden mysteries of the word of God, ONLY given to those who trust God to open their understanding, without which, no man can see.   

Well being that we all have the HS inside us if we are believers, God clearly thinks differently.

: Barley  Mon Nov 16, 2015 - 22:31:45

Joh 17:20  Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Joh 17:21  That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh 17:22  And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Joh 17:23  I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Joh 17:24  Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
Joh 17:25  O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
Joh 17:26  And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
Joh 16:12  I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Joh 16:13  Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Joh 16:14  He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Joh 16:15  All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

"No Holy Ghost needed – we have the Scriptures"


Without ears to hear and eyes to see they study the Scripture in vain.
Never knowing the Father Son or Spirit, unable to understand Scripture.
Under a veil of darkness.
Lord have mercy.

is all this a revelation from the Holy Ghost or from Scriptures - this was not available to the Apostles, Disciples and early and early Christians but the HS was - wincam

: LexKnight  Tue Nov 17, 2015 - 04:18:51
Wincam, they had Genesis-Malachi. What do you think the Bereans studied to confirm their teaching?

they were not comparing the NT with the OT which was not available to them as it is to us - the NT is hidden in the OT and the OT is revealed in the NT - wincam

: wincam  Tue Nov 17, 2015 - 13:39:01

: LexKnight  Tue Nov 17, 2015 - 04:18:51
Wincam, they had Genesis-Malachi. What do you think the Bereans studied to confirm their teaching?

they were not comparing the NT with the OT which was not available to them as it is to us - the NT is hidden in the OT and the OT is revealed in the NT - wincam

I agree, yet would also say the OT has a lot more meat than the NT.

: wincam  Tue Nov 17, 2015 - 13:39:01

: LexKnight  Tue Nov 17, 2015 - 04:18:51
Wincam, they had Genesis-Malachi. What do you think the Bereans studied to confirm their teaching?

they were not comparing the NT with the OT which was not available to them as it is to us - the NT is hidden in the OT and the OT is revealed in the NT - wincam

what are you trying to say here?
the Bereans did use the OT (that they had) to check the truth of what Paul taught them.  Do you do that with what the RCC teaches you? do you check what is found in the CCC  against what is in scripture?

: skeeter  Tue Nov 17, 2015 - 15:06:31

: wincam  Tue Nov 17, 2015 - 13:39:01

: LexKnight  Tue Nov 17, 2015 - 04:18:51
Wincam, they had Genesis-Malachi. What do you think the Bereans studied to confirm their teaching?

they were not comparing the NT with the OT which was not available to them as it is to us - the NT is hidden in the OT and the OT is revealed in the NT - wincam

what are you trying to say here?
the Bereans did use the OT (that they had) to check the truth of what Paul taught them.  Do you do that with what the RCC teaches you? do you check what is found in the CCC  against what is in scripture?

Catholics can't do that because an awful lot of the CT (Catholic Testament) cannot be found in neither OT nor NT.

Quite logically therefore the leadership of the RCC teaches that only they have the Holy Spirit passed down the lines of the apostles, and the rest of the flock has to obey.

I wonder which catechism that Wincam reads, because the one the CC uses says they received the Holy Spirit at either Baptism or at confirmation. 

If he says we don't need it or that God doesn't send it to us now, he is deeply in error... even according to his own church.

: AVZ  Tue Nov 17, 2015 - 18:32:36

: skeeter  Tue Nov 17, 2015 - 15:06:31

: wincam  Tue Nov 17, 2015 - 13:39:01

: LexKnight  Tue Nov 17, 2015 - 04:18:51
Wincam, they had Genesis-Malachi. What do you think the Bereans studied to confirm their teaching?

they were not comparing the NT with the OT which was not available to them as it is to us - the NT is hidden in the OT and the OT is revealed in the NT - wincam

what are you trying to say here?
the Bereans did use the OT (that they had) to check the truth of what Paul taught them.  Do you do that with what the RCC teaches you? do you check what is found in the CCC  against what is in scripture?

Catholics can't do that because an awful lot of the CT (Catholic Testament) cannot be found in neither OT nor NT.

Quite logically therefore the leadership of the RCC teaches that only they have the Holy Spirit passed down the lines of the apostles, and the rest of the flock has to obey.

This is true but many don't even care when they do find out what the RCC teaches isn't in the OT or NT.  That often happens on forums and they say that the RCC got its power and authority from Christ so it doesn't matter that what they teach isn't in the Bible. 

of course that is so and the Bible tells us exactly why what is written was written and why what is written must be accepted including Jn.6:51-71 - wincam

: wincam  Sun Nov 22, 2015 - 17:33:53
of course that is so and the Bible tells us exactly why what is written was written and why what is written must be accepted including Jn.6:51-71 - wincam

who are you responding to wincam?

: skeeter  Mon Nov 23, 2015 - 02:36:52

: wincam  Sun Nov 22, 2015 - 17:33:53
of course that is so and the Bible tells us exactly why what is written was written and why what is written must be accepted including Jn.6:51-71 - wincam

who are you responding to wincam?

Talking to himself

: mclees8  Tue Nov 17, 2015 - 07:09:27
It is the Holy sprit that brings us into all truth concerning the word of God  With out the anointing of the Holy Spirit the Bible is just another book that  says a lot of religious things, but it is only carnal knowledge. Only the Holy Spirit reveals Christ in the heart.  giving true revelation. 

Jesus was not joking when He said you must be Born again. We need the Holy Spirit to guide us always

Only  those who are truly of the Spirit will understand what I just sad.

sad indeed that those who claim inspiration from and via blaspheme against the HS by attributing their confusion, contradictions, and divisions to Him - twinc

: wincam  Mon Nov 09, 2015 - 16:26:17
it has not been realised that the Holy Spirit was given to the Apostles and early Christians as they did not have the scriptures as we do to search to see if these things be so - see Jn.14:16,17and 26 and 15:26 and 16:7 and 13 - wincam

The Holy Spirit abides in me.

: wincam  Mon Nov 09, 2015 - 16:26:17
it has not been realised that the Holy Spirit was given to the Apostles and early Christians as they did not have the scriptures as we do to search to see if these things be so - see Jn.14:16,17and 26 and 15:26 and 16:7 and 13 - wincam

I have heard this argument from a idiot religious mate pushing just such a load of worldly trash, fact is without the Holy Spirit you have nothing in Christ.
Such push a dead Jesus.
Such idolise the so called Jews.
Such are happy to create wars for their own worldly ends.
Such believe they will be raptured up out of the mess they and other demons created.

: His Kid  Sun Jan 10, 2016 - 18:15:06

: wincam  Mon Nov 09, 2015 - 16:26:17
it has not been realised that the Holy Spirit was given to the Apostles and early Christians as they did not have the scriptures as we do to search to see if these things be so - see Jn.14:16,17and 26 and 15:26 and 16:7 and 13 - wincam

The Holy Spirit abides in me.

::pondering::

: skeeter  Sun Nov 22, 2015 - 00:36:01

: AVZ  Tue Nov 17, 2015 - 18:32:36

: skeeter  Tue Nov 17, 2015 - 15:06:31

: wincam  Tue Nov 17, 2015 - 13:39:01

: LexKnight  Tue Nov 17, 2015 - 04:18:51
Wincam, they had Genesis-Malachi. What do you think the Bereans studied to confirm their teaching?

they were not comparing the NT with the OT which was not available to them as it is to us - the NT is hidden in the OT and the OT is revealed in the NT - wincam

what are you trying to say here?
the Bereans did use the OT (that they had) to check the truth of what Paul taught them.  Do you do that with what the RCC teaches you? do you check what is found in the CCC  against what is in scripture?

Catholics can't do that because an awful lot of the CT (Catholic Testament) cannot be found in neither OT nor NT.

Quite logically therefore the leadership of the RCC teaches that only they have the Holy Spirit passed down the lines of the apostles, and the rest of the flock has to obey.

This is true but many don't even care when they do find out what the RCC teaches isn't in the OT or NT.  That often happens on forums and they say that the RCC got its power and authority from Christ so it doesn't matter that what they teach isn't in the Bible.

The Bible is simply not the only authority man has for the teachings of God.

I'd rather stand before God and say I trusted the Word of God rather than I trusted other sources by man.

It's like saying no need for petrol we have the car.

: Ladonia  Sun Jan 10, 2016 - 23:07:22The Bible is simply not the only authority man has for the teachings of God.

Oh, how precious is your insight! Do you know the definition of "Hearsay"? Information received from other people that one cannot adequately substantiate; rumor; Idle talk; •Law.... the report of another person's words by a witness, usually disallowed as evidence because it cannot be proven!

The Bible is simply not the only authority man has for the teachings of God

"that's all hearsay, and I don't care to listen to such tripe" No wise Judge would ever allow hearsay in as TRUTH....neither do faithful saints allow hearsay in as TRUTH. 

Yep.

We gots The Pope

quote author=RB link=topic=90778.msg1055008815#msg1055008815 date=1452509997]

: Ladonia  Sun Jan 10, 2016 - 23:07:22The Bible is simply not the only authority man has for the teachings of God.

Oh, how precious is your insight! Do you know the definition of "Hearsay"? Information received from other people that one cannot adequately substantiate; rumor; Idle talk; •Law.... the report of another person's words by a witness, usually disallowed as evidence because it cannot be proven!

The Bible is simply not the only authority man has for the teachings of God

"that's all hearsay, and I don't care to listen to such tripe" No wise Judge would ever allow hearsay in as TRUTH....neither do faithful saints allow hearsay in as TRUTH.
[/quote]








The scriptures might disagree with you on that one.



These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

But the ANOINTING which ye have received of Him abideth in you, and ye not

that any man teach you, but as the same ANOINTING teacheth you of all things,

and is TRUTH, and is no lie, and even as IT has taught you, ye shall abide in Him.


It is written in the prophets......

And they shall be all taught of God.  Every man therefore that has heard, and

has learned of the Father,  cometh unto Me.


But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My Name,

HE SHALL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS.



So your statement is not correct unless you equate the Spirit of the living God

as being the scriptures.



This is what Jesus had to say to the religious of His day...

And ye have not His Word abiding in you, for whom He hath sent, 

Him you believe not.

SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES,  FOR IN THEM YE THINK YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE,

AND THEY ARE WHICH TESTIFY OF ME.

And ye will not COME TO ME, THAT YE MIGHT HAVE LIFE.

: Texas Conservative  Mon Jan 11, 2016 - 05:59:38
Yep.

We gots The Pope

Not just the Pope, but the whole Church that has it's place in the teaching of God's word.

: Ladonia  Mon Jan 11, 2016 - 17:32:35

: Texas Conservative  Mon Jan 11, 2016 - 05:59:38
Yep.

We gots The Pope

Not just the Pope, but the whole Church that has it's place in the teaching of God's word.

The Holy Spirit literally abides in believers. We don't need a pope or a religion. We have the real thing.

Romans 8
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

: doorknocker  Mon Jan 11, 2016 - 07:49:42
quote author=RB link=topic=90778.msg1055008815#msg1055008815 date=1452509997]

: Ladonia  Sun Jan 10, 2016 - 23:07:22The Bible is simply not the only authority man has for the teachings of God.

Oh, how precious is your insight! Do you know the definition of "Hearsay"? Information received from other people that one cannot adequately substantiate; rumor; Idle talk; •Law.... the report of another person's words by a witness, usually disallowed as evidence because it cannot be proven!

The Bible is simply not the only authority man has for the teachings of God

"that's all hearsay, and I don't care to listen to such tripe" No wise Judge would ever allow hearsay in as TRUTH....neither do faithful saints allow hearsay in as TRUTH.

The scriptures might disagree with you on that one.



These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

But the ANOINTING which ye have received of Him abideth in you, and ye not

that any man teach you, but as the same ANOINTING teacheth you of all things,

and is TRUTH, and is no lie, and even as IT has taught you, ye shall abide in Him.


It is written in the prophets......

And they shall be all taught of God.  Every man therefore that has heard, and

has learned of the Father,  cometh unto Me.


But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My Name,

HE SHALL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS.



So your statement is not correct unless you equate the Spirit of the living God

as being the scriptures.



This is what Jesus had to say to the religious of His day...

And ye have not His Word abiding in you, for whom He hath sent, 

Him you believe not.

SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES,  FOR IN THEM YE THINK YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE,

AND THEY ARE WHICH TESTIFY OF ME.

And ye will not COME TO ME, THAT YE MIGHT HAVE LIFE.
[/quote]

Oh really? Consider this Batman. All the books in the world could not contain ALL that Jesus said and did. Then there is "tradition" which St. Paul wrote clearly about that is also to be considered and respected.  We should not forget about "the Church" either that should be recognized too and the authority given to it by Jesus Christ himself. And yes, we should search the Scriptures, but they themselves do not offer eternal life, only Jesus does that.

: His Kid  Mon Jan 11, 2016 - 17:35:13

: Ladonia  Mon Jan 11, 2016 - 17:32:35

: Texas Conservative  Mon Jan 11, 2016 - 05:59:38
Yep.

We gots The Pope

Not just the Pope, but the whole Church that has it's place in the teaching of God's word.

The Holy Spirit literally abides in believers. We don't need a pope or a religion. We have the real thing.

Romans 8
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

I can partly agree with you here. The Holy Spirit does indeed reside in all believers PLUS the Church that exists here on earth for our benefit. Without the Holy Spirit we would have a tough time indeed as we go through our spiritual lives.

: Ladonia  Mon Jan 11, 2016 - 18:10:28

: His Kid  Mon Jan 11, 2016 - 17:35:13

: Ladonia  Mon Jan 11, 2016 - 17:32:35

: Texas Conservative  Mon Jan 11, 2016 - 05:59:38
Yep.

We gots The Pope

Not just the Pope, but the whole Church that has it's place in the teaching of God's word.

The Holy Spirit literally abides in believers. We don't need a pope or a religion. We have the real thing.

Romans 8
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

I can partly agree with you here. The Holy Spirit does indeed reside in all believers PLUS the Church that exists here on earth for our benefit. Without the Holy Spirit we would have a tough time indeed as we go through our spiritual lives.

I couldn't disagree more. My walk with the Lord is so much better since I left the Catholic church. Religion just mucks everything up.

: Ladonia  Mon Jan 11, 2016 - 17:40:54
Then there is "tradition" which St. Paul wrote clearly about that is also to be considered and respected.

Is that the "tradition" of which Paul says "stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter" and of which the Catholic Church has absolutely no proof whatsoever that they were actually taught by the apostles?

: doorknocker  Mon Jan 11, 2016 - 07:49:42So your statement is not correct unless you equate the Spirit of the living God as being the scriptures.

DK, were you speaking to me? I was speaking to Ladonia, to what he had said with these words:

Quote from: Ladonia on January 10, 2016, 10:07:22 PM: The Bible is simply not the only authority man has for the teachings of God

And I said to him, which he has yet to answer:

Oh, how precious is your insight! Do you know the definition of "Hearsay"? Information received from other people that one cannot adequately substantiate; rumor; Idle talk; •Law.... the report of another person's words by a witness, usually disallowed as evidence because it cannot be proven!

So, are you saying that the Spirit speaks to us apart from the written word of God, and that would be above the written scriptures that saints consider to be the only testimony that God has given to us as the final authority? Would you care to answer this post to clear the matter? Your post has me thinking you do.

: AVZ  Mon Jan 11, 2016 - 23:02:58

: Ladonia  Mon Jan 11, 2016 - 17:40:54
Then there is "tradition" which St. Paul wrote clearly about that is also to be considered and respected.

Is that the "tradition" of which Paul says "stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter" and of which the Catholic Church has absolutely no proof whatsoever that they were actually taught by the apostles?

What proof do you have that the scriptures came from the apostles or the ones who knew them?

: Catholica  Tue Jan 12, 2016 - 07:56:16

: AVZ  Mon Jan 11, 2016 - 23:02:58

: Ladonia  Mon Jan 11, 2016 - 17:40:54
Then there is "tradition" which St. Paul wrote clearly about that is also to be considered and respected.

Is that the "tradition" of which Paul says "stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter" and of which the Catholic Church has absolutely no proof whatsoever that they were actually taught by the apostles?

What proof do you have that the scriptures came from the apostles or the ones who knew them?

How about historical records confirming the authors were real existing people?
How about each author signing off their written works?
How about the various works confirming each others existence?
How about NT works complying to OT works?
How about cross referencing?
How about independent, non-biblical, records confirming biblical works?
How about fulfilled prophesies?
How about harmony, structure, concept, writing style, accuracy?

What we do not have is some sole agent in some city with presumed authority declaring something to be true for the sake of wanting it to be true.
What we do not have is ideology appealing to a verse in scripture (like the above verse from Paul), whilst the ideology itself does not comply to that verse.

: AVZ  Tue Jan 12, 2016 - 09:31:20

: Catholica  Tue Jan 12, 2016 - 07:56:16

: AVZ  Mon Jan 11, 2016 - 23:02:58

: Ladonia  Mon Jan 11, 2016 - 17:40:54
Then there is "tradition" which St. Paul wrote clearly about that is also to be considered and respected.

Is that the "tradition" of which Paul says "stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter" and of which the Catholic Church has absolutely no proof whatsoever that they were actually taught by the apostles?

What proof do you have that the scriptures came from the apostles or the ones who knew them?

How about historical records confirming the authors were real existing people?

Thomas was an apostle as well.  Yet the Gospel of Thomas is fake.  This proves nothing.

: AVZ  Tue Jan 12, 2016 - 09:31:20
How about each author signing off their written works?

The "Gospel of Thomas" claims that Thomas wrote it.  This proves nothing.

Who wrote Hebrews?  Who wrote the Gospel of John?  You don't have this always, and even if you did, the author could have just pretended that he was one of the apostles.  It gives more authority to the work that way in theory, after all.

: AVZ  Tue Jan 12, 2016 - 09:31:20
How about the various works confirming each others existence?

You have to make an assumption that they are referring to the work in question that I know of as being verified is that Paul wrote letters.  As to which letters are authentically Paul's we have to rely on Tradition.

: AVZ  Tue Jan 12, 2016 - 09:31:20
How about NT works complying to OT works?

No idea what you mean by this, but anyone can make up stories that do that.  The book of Mormon I'm sure complies very well.

: AVZ  Tue Jan 12, 2016 - 09:31:20
How about cross referencing?

Not sure what you mean by this, but there is no infallible cross-reference in the Bible.

: AVZ  Tue Jan 12, 2016 - 09:31:20
How about independent, non-biblical, records confirming biblical works?

You mean, the Tradition of the Church?  Who is your authority?

: AVZ  Tue Jan 12, 2016 - 09:31:20
How about fulfilled prophesies?

Like what?  Revelation?  How do you know it was written before they happened?  Prove it.

How about "unfulfilled prophecies" like the interpretations of Bible readers like Harold Camping?
Or perhaps the prophecy that John would suffer "a martyr's death"?

: AVZ  Tue Jan 12, 2016 - 09:31:20
How about harmony, structure, concept, writing style, accuracy?

Lots of books in existence today have these; it doesn't prove who the author was, just that they had the same author.

Aren't your arguments about Authenticity of authors a little moot, since you constantly claim that the CC canonized the bible for us all?  It seems to me that if it was not the Authority for God's word and His will....  the brag on the CC is just moot. 

If it can be tossed out for rumors and innuendos of men, traded to the catechism at every turn... what good is the Bible at all? 

Or is that the next step of the CC... to just tell man no Bible is needed. Let them tell you what God says or does?  Oh wait....  Yeah... they already did that. 

: Catholica  Tue Jan 12, 2016 - 12:23:44

: AVZ  Tue Jan 12, 2016 - 09:31:20

: Catholica  Tue Jan 12, 2016 - 07:56:16

: AVZ  Mon Jan 11, 2016 - 23:02:58

: Ladonia  Mon Jan 11, 2016 - 17:40:54
Then there is "tradition" which St. Paul wrote clearly about that is also to be considered and respected.

Is that the "tradition" of which Paul says "stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter" and of which the Catholic Church has absolutely no proof whatsoever that they were actually taught by the apostles?

What proof do you have that the scriptures came from the apostles or the ones who knew them?

How about historical records confirming the authors were real existing people?

Thomas was an apostle as well.  Yet the Gospel of Thomas is fake.  This proves nothing.

: AVZ  Tue Jan 12, 2016 - 09:31:20
How about each author signing off their written works?

The "Gospel of Thomas" claims that Thomas wrote it.  This proves nothing.

Who wrote Hebrews?  Who wrote the Gospel of John?  You don't have this always, and even if you did, the author could have just pretended that he was one of the apostles.  It gives more authority to the work that way in theory, after all.

: AVZ  Tue Jan 12, 2016 - 09:31:20
How about the various works confirming each others existence?

You have to make an assumption that they are referring to the work in question that I know of as being verified is that Paul wrote letters.  As to which letters are authentically Paul's we have to rely on Tradition.

: AVZ  Tue Jan 12, 2016 - 09:31:20
How about NT works complying to OT works?

No idea what you mean by this, but anyone can make up stories that do that.  The book of Mormon I'm sure complies very well.

: AVZ  Tue Jan 12, 2016 - 09:31:20
How about cross referencing?

Not sure what you mean by this, but there is no infallible cross-reference in the Bible.

: AVZ  Tue Jan 12, 2016 - 09:31:20
How about independent, non-biblical, records confirming biblical works?

You mean, the Tradition of the Church?  Who is your authority?

: AVZ  Tue Jan 12, 2016 - 09:31:20
How about fulfilled prophesies?

Like what?  Revelation?  How do you know it was written before they happened?  Prove it.

How about "unfulfilled prophecies" like the interpretations of Bible readers like Harold Camping?
Or perhaps the prophecy that John would suffer "a martyr's death"?

: AVZ  Tue Jan 12, 2016 - 09:31:20
How about harmony, structure, concept, writing style, accuracy?

Lots of books in existence today have these; it doesn't prove who the author was, just that they had the same author.

I don't know what it is you are trying to dispute, but obviously you have the idea the church fathers looked at the books and without due process said: "this book is in, this is out, in, in, out, out..."
If you would actually know HOW the Bible was put together you would know it was done according to a process. The process contained the points I mentioned above.

Now all your argumentation nullifies the process your own church handles to consolidate the Bible.
You just invalidated your own Bible.

Most ridiculous thing Ive ever heard,we dont need the Holy Ghost.

: James56  Mon Jan 18, 2016 - 08:51:55
Most ridiculous thing Ive ever heard,we dont need the Holy Ghost.

Unfortunately, that's what many teach by their wording and action, though not directly.

When Jesus called Simon Peter, it was because Simon had the Holy Spirit, this was why he got the key to the kingdom of Heaven.

Peter had the foundation on to build the Church (Christ body) built on a firm foundation (Rock) not sand like mans works.

If it's not of the Holy Spirit it is only a works of man just like PC is and that will lead all such only to damnation.

Satan comes across as a nice bloke, problem is he will feed ones sin nature and will only rob you of the Holy Spirit.   

IT doesnt mean we dont need the Holy Spirit,if we dont then we are not His,we wont know Him and we wont follow Him or recognize who the shepards that He has given authority to teach us.

One of the main roles of the Holy Spirit is to teach us how to enter the spirit realm so we can be one with him, the place where our Father is in heaven the place in him. No man can show or teach you this way of truth that releases the life of him  through it. The way or path is only shown to us by the Holy Spirit who teaches us in the ways of the spirit. He teaches us how to unlock the doors of truth that are  all throughout the written word of God. So we can receive experience the life force that is behind it . That's when you feel the spirit realm open so on earth as it is in heaven. It's coming down and around you now. The Joy of the Lord is real and  all we have to do is sit in the doorway in the realm of the Spirit. When it opens its yours now to enter  when ever you want. The door of love the door of peace the door of forgiveness . Unending revelations of the heights and depths that we can explore in him because now we have him, the Holy Spirit.

: wincam  Mon Nov 09, 2015 - 16:26:17
it has not been realised that the Holy Spirit was given to the Apostles and early Christians as they did not have the scriptures as we do to search to see if these things be so - see Jn.14:16,17and 26 and 15:26 and 16:7 and 13 - wincam

Who do say had this so called revelation. How do you come to such a conclusion by these scriptures you refer to. 

Without the Holy Spirit how can men be convicted (John 16)?
How is the believer regenerated? (John 3:5; Titus 3:5)?
Who indwells the believer?
Who seals, baptizes, infills, empowers, leads the believer?
Who administers the spiritual gifts to the believer?
I believe the Holy Spirit came on the day of Pentecost and will remain with the church until our work here on earth is done. Jesus finished the work He came to do and so will the Holy Spirit!

 ::announcment::And I will pray the Father,and he shall give you another comforter,that he may abide with you forever; ::doh::[Even] the Spirit of truth;whom the world cannot recieve,because it seeth him not,neither knoweth him:but ye know him;for he dwelleth with you,and shall be in you. ::reading::John 14:16-17 ::headscratch:: ::pondering::

: James56  Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 11:41:50
::announcment::And I will pray the Father,and he shall give you another comforter,that he may abide with you forever; ::doh::[Even] the Spirit of truth;whom the world cannot recieve,because it seeth him not,neither knoweth him:but ye know him;for he dwelleth with you,and shall be in you. ::reading:: ::headscratch:: ::pondering::

I think people know if the Spirit abides in them or He doesn't. I would just accept the fact the Spirit doesn't abide in him.

Because He is in you doesnt mean you will follow Him all the time even though you did at the start and because He is in you doesnt mean you have a full revelation of truth even if you believe you do and base everything you believe on the bible because you may be listening to your own voice.To really know truth one must be divorced from himself and anything he ever himself held,in other words what is out of his own heart and mind concerning God or the bible.

Yes, the verse James quoted above about the Comforter residing with us forever, it applies to the Church as a whole, not just a few individuals in audience with Jesus at the time.  The Holy Spirit abides and has abided with Christ's Church forever, the Spirit of truth, which will never let the Church fall into error, no matter how much people would like to believe that He did.

: Catholica  Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 13:53:13
Yes, the verse James quoted above about the Comforter residing with us forever, it applies to the Church as a whole, not just a few individuals in audience with Jesus at the time.  The Holy Spirit abides and has abided with Christ's Church forever, the Spirit of truth, which will never let the Church fall into error, no matter how much people would like to believe that He did.

You are so right. The Holy Spirit abides in every single born-again believer; which is the church. The Church is made up of every born again person. It is not a religion or an organization. The Church is not visible on earth but through individual people.

: His Kid  Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 14:29:10

: Catholica  Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 13:53:13
Yes, the verse James quoted above about the Comforter residing with us forever, it applies to the Church as a whole, not just a few individuals in audience with Jesus at the time.  The Holy Spirit abides and has abided with Christ's Church forever, the Spirit of truth, which will never let the Church fall into error, no matter how much people would like to believe that He did.

You are so right. The Holy Spirit abides in every single born-again believer; which is the church. The Church is made up of every born again person. It is not a religion or an organization. The Church is not visible on earth but through individual people.

Thanks, I'm glad that you agree.  The Church is not an organization.  That is very Catholic teaching.

From the Catechism

I. NAMES AND IMAGES OF THE CHURCH

751 The word "Church" (Latin ecclesia, from the Greek ek-ka-lein, to "call out of") means a convocation or an assembly. It designates the assemblies of the people, usually for a religious purpose.139 Ekklesia is used frequently in the Greek Old Testament for the assembly of the Chosen People before God, above all for their assembly on Mount Sinai where Israel received the Law and was established by God as his holy people.140 By calling itself "Church," the first community of Christian believers recognized itself as heir to that assembly. In the Church, God is "calling together" his people from all the ends of the earth. The equivalent Greek term Kyriake, from which the English word Church and the German Kirche are derived, means "what belongs to the Lord."

752 In Christian usage, the word "church" designates the liturgical assembly,141 but also the local community142 or the whole universal community of believers.143 These three meanings are inseparable. "The Church" is the People that God gathers in the whole world. She exists in local communities and is made real as a liturgical, above all a Eucharistic, assembly. She draws her life from the word and the Body of Christ and so herself becomes Christ's Body. 

139 Cf. Acts 19:39.
140 Cf. Ex 19.
141 Cf. 1 Cor 11:18; 14:19,28,34,35.
142 Cf. 1 Cor 1:2; 16:1.
143 Cf. 1 Cor 15:9; Gal 1:13; Phil 3:6.

However the Church indeed has an organization and IS organized.  The Church is built on the apostles and the prophets with Christ as it's cornerstone.  Ephesians 2:20.  The Church, using the authority of the keys which Jesus gave to it to bind and loose (Matthew 16:18-19), established roles, including bishop and priest and deacon, to carry out many of the sacraments that Jesus Christ established and commanded.   We know from Christ's commands in Matthew 18:17-18, for example, that in the kingdom there is an established authority to deal with spiritual issues. 

Jesus Christ himself was the first sacrament.  In his person He became an outward sign of the inward life of God when He took flesh.  The Church itself is sacramental because Jesus Christ himself is a sacrament.

: Catholica  Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 16:37:21

: His Kid  Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 14:29:10

: Catholica  Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 13:53:13
Yes, the verse James quoted above about the Comforter residing with us forever, it applies to the Church as a whole, not just a few individuals in audience with Jesus at the time.  The Holy Spirit abides and has abided with Christ's Church forever, the Spirit of truth, which will never let the Church fall into error, no matter how much people would like to believe that He did.

You are so right. The Holy Spirit abides in every single born-again believer; which is the church. The Church is made up of every born again person. It is not a religion or an organization. The Church is not visible on earth but through individual people.

Thanks, I'm glad that you agree.  The Church is not an organization.  That is very Catholic teaching.

From the Catechism

I. NAMES AND IMAGES OF THE CHURCH

751 The word "Church" (Latin ecclesia, from the Greek ek-ka-lein, to "call out of") means a convocation or an assembly. It designates the assemblies of the people, usually for a religious purpose.139 Ekklesia is used frequently in the Greek Old Testament for the assembly of the Chosen People before God, above all for their assembly on Mount Sinai where Israel received the Law and was established by God as his holy people.140 By calling itself "Church," the first community of Christian believers recognized itself as heir to that assembly. In the Church, God is "calling together" his people from all the ends of the earth. The equivalent Greek term Kyriake, from which the English word Church and the German Kirche are derived, means "what belongs to the Lord."

752 In Christian usage, the word "church" designates the liturgical assembly,141 but also the local community142 or the whole universal community of believers.143 These three meanings are inseparable. "The Church" is the People that God gathers in the whole world. She exists in local communities and is made real as a liturgical, above all a Eucharistic, assembly. She draws her life from the word and the Body of Christ and so herself becomes Christ's Body. 

139 Cf. Acts 19:39.
140 Cf. Ex 19.
141 Cf. 1 Cor 11:18; 14:19,28,34,35.
142 Cf. 1 Cor 1:2; 16:1.
143 Cf. 1 Cor 15:9; Gal 1:13; Phil 3:6.

However the Church indeed has an organization and IS organized.  The Church is built on the apostles and the prophets with Christ as it's cornerstone.  Ephesians 2:20.  The Church, using the authority of the keys which Jesus gave to it to bind and loose (Matthew 16:18-19), established roles, including bishop and priest and deacon, to carry out many of the sacraments that Jesus Christ established and commanded.   We know from Christ's commands in Matthew 18:17-18, for example, that in the kingdom there is an established authority to deal with spiritual issues. 

Jesus Christ himself was the first sacrament.  In his person He became an outward sign of the inward life of God when He took flesh.  The Church itself is sacramental because Jesus Christ himself is a sacrament.

I'm grateful that the RCC organization is not the true Church because that would be a truly sad commentary of my Lord.

: His Kid  Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 16:50:39

: Catholica  Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 16:37:21

: His Kid  Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 14:29:10

: Catholica  Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 13:53:13
Yes, the verse James quoted above about the Comforter residing with us forever, it applies to the Church as a whole, not just a few individuals in audience with Jesus at the time.  The Holy Spirit abides and has abided with Christ's Church forever, the Spirit of truth, which will never let the Church fall into error, no matter how much people would like to believe that He did.

You are so right. The Holy Spirit abides in every single born-again believer; which is the church. The Church is made up of every born again person. It is not a religion or an organization. The Church is not visible on earth but through individual people.

Thanks, I'm glad that you agree.  The Church is not an organization.  That is very Catholic teaching.

From the Catechism

I. NAMES AND IMAGES OF THE CHURCH

751 The word "Church" (Latin ecclesia, from the Greek ek-ka-lein, to "call out of") means a convocation or an assembly. It designates the assemblies of the people, usually for a religious purpose.139 Ekklesia is used frequently in the Greek Old Testament for the assembly of the Chosen People before God, above all for their assembly on Mount Sinai where Israel received the Law and was established by God as his holy people.140 By calling itself "Church," the first community of Christian believers recognized itself as heir to that assembly. In the Church, God is "calling together" his people from all the ends of the earth. The equivalent Greek term Kyriake, from which the English word Church and the German Kirche are derived, means "what belongs to the Lord."

752 In Christian usage, the word "church" designates the liturgical assembly,141 but also the local community142 or the whole universal community of believers.143 These three meanings are inseparable. "The Church" is the People that God gathers in the whole world. She exists in local communities and is made real as a liturgical, above all a Eucharistic, assembly. She draws her life from the word and the Body of Christ and so herself becomes Christ's Body. 

139 Cf. Acts 19:39.
140 Cf. Ex 19.
141 Cf. 1 Cor 11:18; 14:19,28,34,35.
142 Cf. 1 Cor 1:2; 16:1.
143 Cf. 1 Cor 15:9; Gal 1:13; Phil 3:6.

However the Church indeed has an organization and IS organized.  The Church is built on the apostles and the prophets with Christ as it's cornerstone.  Ephesians 2:20.  The Church, using the authority of the keys which Jesus gave to it to bind and loose (Matthew 16:18-19), established roles, including bishop and priest and deacon, to carry out many of the sacraments that Jesus Christ established and commanded.   We know from Christ's commands in Matthew 18:17-18, for example, that in the kingdom there is an established authority to deal with spiritual issues. 

Jesus Christ himself was the first sacrament.  In his person He became an outward sign of the inward life of God when He took flesh.  The Church itself is sacramental because Jesus Christ himself is a sacrament.

I'm grateful that the RCC organization is not the true Church because that would be a truly sad commentary of my Lord.

Do you believe that you yourself are an exemplary commentary of the Lord?

: Catholica  Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 16:58:26

: His Kid  Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 16:50:39

: Catholica  Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 16:37:21

: His Kid  Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 14:29:10

: Catholica  Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 13:53:13
Yes, the verse James quoted above about the Comforter residing with us forever, it applies to the Church as a whole, not just a few individuals in audience with Jesus at the time.  The Holy Spirit abides and has abided with Christ's Church forever, the Spirit of truth, which will never let the Church fall into error, no matter how much people would like to believe that He did.

You are so right. The Holy Spirit abides in every single born-again believer; which is the church. The Church is made up of every born again person. It is not a religion or an organization. The Church is not visible on earth but through individual people.

Thanks, I'm glad that you agree.  The Church is not an organization.  That is very Catholic teaching.

From the Catechism

I. NAMES AND IMAGES OF THE CHURCH

751 The word "Church" (Latin ecclesia, from the Greek ek-ka-lein, to "call out of") means a convocation or an assembly. It designates the assemblies of the people, usually for a religious purpose.139 Ekklesia is used frequently in the Greek Old Testament for the assembly of the Chosen People before God, above all for their assembly on Mount Sinai where Israel received the Law and was established by God as his holy people.140 By calling itself "Church," the first community of Christian believers recognized itself as heir to that assembly. In the Church, God is "calling together" his people from all the ends of the earth. The equivalent Greek term Kyriake, from which the English word Church and the German Kirche are derived, means "what belongs to the Lord."

752 In Christian usage, the word "church" designates the liturgical assembly,141 but also the local community142 or the whole universal community of believers.143 These three meanings are inseparable. "The Church" is the People that God gathers in the whole world. She exists in local communities and is made real as a liturgical, above all a Eucharistic, assembly. She draws her life from the word and the Body of Christ and so herself becomes Christ's Body. 

139 Cf. Acts 19:39.
140 Cf. Ex 19.
141 Cf. 1 Cor 11:18; 14:19,28,34,35.
142 Cf. 1 Cor 1:2; 16:1.
143 Cf. 1 Cor 15:9; Gal 1:13; Phil 3:6.

However the Church indeed has an organization and IS organized.  The Church is built on the apostles and the prophets with Christ as it's cornerstone.  Ephesians 2:20.  The Church, using the authority of the keys which Jesus gave to it to bind and loose (Matthew 16:18-19), established roles, including bishop and priest and deacon, to carry out many of the sacraments that Jesus Christ established and commanded.   We know from Christ's commands in Matthew 18:17-18, for example, that in the kingdom there is an established authority to deal with spiritual issues. 

Jesus Christ himself was the first sacrament.  In his person He became an outward sign of the inward life of God when He took flesh.  The Church itself is sacramental because Jesus Christ himself is a sacrament.

I'm grateful that the RCC organization is not the true Church because that would be a truly sad commentary of my Lord.

Do you believe that you yourself are an exemplary commentary of the Lord?

I am referring to the RCC organization itself, not any person that happens to attend that church. The RC Pope exalts himself above all this is God and the corruption in the RCC is profound. I'm grateful that the RCC is not the true Church because it would make ZERO sense.

I just caution you that when the Vatican begins to openly discuss contact with alien beings, that will be the great deception and a time in your life when you will have to make the decision to believe the deception or turn to the truth.

: His Kid  Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 17:08:17

: Catholica  Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 16:58:26

: His Kid  Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 16:50:39

: Catholica  Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 16:37:21

: His Kid  Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 14:29:10

: Catholica  Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 13:53:13
Yes, the verse James quoted above about the Comforter residing with us forever, it applies to the Church as a whole, not just a few individuals in audience with Jesus at the time.  The Holy Spirit abides and has abided with Christ's Church forever, the Spirit of truth, which will never let the Church fall into error, no matter how much people would like to believe that He did.

You are so right. The Holy Spirit abides in every single born-again believer; which is the church. The Church is made up of every born again person. It is not a religion or an organization. The Church is not visible on earth but through individual people.

Thanks, I'm glad that you agree.  The Church is not an organization.  That is very Catholic teaching.

From the Catechism

I. NAMES AND IMAGES OF THE CHURCH

751 The word "Church" (Latin ecclesia, from the Greek ek-ka-lein, to "call out of") means a convocation or an assembly. It designates the assemblies of the people, usually for a religious purpose.139 Ekklesia is used frequently in the Greek Old Testament for the assembly of the Chosen People before God, above all for their assembly on Mount Sinai where Israel received the Law and was established by God as his holy people.140 By calling itself "Church," the first community of Christian believers recognized itself as heir to that assembly. In the Church, God is "calling together" his people from all the ends of the earth. The equivalent Greek term Kyriake, from which the English word Church and the German Kirche are derived, means "what belongs to the Lord."

752 In Christian usage, the word "church" designates the liturgical assembly,141 but also the local community142 or the whole universal community of believers.143 These three meanings are inseparable. "The Church" is the People that God gathers in the whole world. She exists in local communities and is made real as a liturgical, above all a Eucharistic, assembly. She draws her life from the word and the Body of Christ and so herself becomes Christ's Body. 

139 Cf. Acts 19:39.
140 Cf. Ex 19.
141 Cf. 1 Cor 11:18; 14:19,28,34,35.
142 Cf. 1 Cor 1:2; 16:1.
143 Cf. 1 Cor 15:9; Gal 1:13; Phil 3:6.

However the Church indeed has an organization and IS organized.  The Church is built on the apostles and the prophets with Christ as it's cornerstone.  Ephesians 2:20.  The Church, using the authority of the keys which Jesus gave to it to bind and loose (Matthew 16:18-19), established roles, including bishop and priest and deacon, to carry out many of the sacraments that Jesus Christ established and commanded.   We know from Christ's commands in Matthew 18:17-18, for example, that in the kingdom there is an established authority to deal with spiritual issues. 

Jesus Christ himself was the first sacrament.  In his person He became an outward sign of the inward life of God when He took flesh.  The Church itself is sacramental because Jesus Christ himself is a sacrament.

I'm grateful that the RCC organization is not the true Church because that would be a truly sad commentary of my Lord.

Do you believe that you yourself are an exemplary commentary of the Lord?

I am referring to the RCC organization itself, not any person that happens to attend that church. The RC Pope exalts himself above all this is God and the corruption in the RCC is profound. I'm grateful that the RCC is not the true Church because it would make ZERO sense.

The Church is people and those people include the ones who are in the hierarchy as well as all the laity and everyone who is in the body of Christ.  Thus you know by default that the Church is made up of sinners, as all those in the body of Christ are also sinners.  So that sinners sometimes sin shouldn't be a scandal to you or any other Christian.

Thus if we were to imagine for a minute that those men who constitute the Catholic hierarchy are "nothing special" in the body of Christ, the Church (all believers) is no less a poor model of Christ, a sad commentary of our Lord.

It makes even LESS sense for the Church to not be organized.  That idea defies what we see in the early Church in the Bible, and also what we see in the very next generation of believers, the ones who learned from the apostles themselves.  There has ALWAYS been organization in the Church, and that is exactly how the Bible reads.

So to propose that a known set of beliefs and practices as well as an organized hierarchy of authority in the Church exists goes against the word of God.  To imply that there is not a set of true beliefs that the believer must accept, nor that there are not a set of religious practices commanded by our Lord that the believer must do, or that if there was a hierarchy of the Church that existed it would not scandalize us, those things are ALL ANTI-SCRIPTURAL and therefore FALSE.

: Catholica  Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 17:20:16

: His Kid  Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 17:08:17

: Catholica  Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 16:58:26

: His Kid  Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 16:50:39

: Catholica  Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 16:37:21

: His Kid  Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 14:29:10

: Catholica  Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 13:53:13
Yes, the verse James quoted above about the Comforter residing with us forever, it applies to the Church as a whole, not just a few individuals in audience with Jesus at the time.  The Holy Spirit abides and has abided with Christ's Church forever, the Spirit of truth, which will never let the Church fall into error, no matter how much people would like to believe that He did.

You are so right. The Holy Spirit abides in every single born-again believer; which is the church. The Church is made up of every born again person. It is not a religion or an organization. The Church is not visible on earth but through individual people.

Thanks, I'm glad that you agree.  The Church is not an organization.  That is very Catholic teaching.

From the Catechism

I. NAMES AND IMAGES OF THE CHURCH

751 The word "Church" (Latin ecclesia, from the Greek ek-ka-lein, to "call out of") means a convocation or an assembly. It designates the assemblies of the people, usually for a religious purpose.139 Ekklesia is used frequently in the Greek Old Testament for the assembly of the Chosen People before God, above all for their assembly on Mount Sinai where Israel received the Law and was established by God as his holy people.140 By calling itself "Church," the first community of Christian believers recognized itself as heir to that assembly. In the Church, God is "calling together" his people from all the ends of the earth. The equivalent Greek term Kyriake, from which the English word Church and the German Kirche are derived, means "what belongs to the Lord."

752 In Christian usage, the word "church" designates the liturgical assembly,141 but also the local community142 or the whole universal community of believers.143 These three meanings are inseparable. "The Church" is the People that God gathers in the whole world. She exists in local communities and is made real as a liturgical, above all a Eucharistic, assembly. She draws her life from the word and the Body of Christ and so herself becomes Christ's Body. 

139 Cf. Acts 19:39.
140 Cf. Ex 19.
141 Cf. 1 Cor 11:18; 14:19,28,34,35.
142 Cf. 1 Cor 1:2; 16:1.
143 Cf. 1 Cor 15:9; Gal 1:13; Phil 3:6.

However the Church indeed has an organization and IS organized.  The Church is built on the apostles and the prophets with Christ as it's cornerstone.  Ephesians 2:20.  The Church, using the authority of the keys which Jesus gave to it to bind and loose (Matthew 16:18-19), established roles, including bishop and priest and deacon, to carry out many of the sacraments that Jesus Christ established and commanded.   We know from Christ's commands in Matthew 18:17-18, for example, that in the kingdom there is an established authority to deal with spiritual issues. 

Jesus Christ himself was the first sacrament.  In his person He became an outward sign of the inward life of God when He took flesh.  The Church itself is sacramental because Jesus Christ himself is a sacrament.

I'm grateful that the RCC organization is not the true Church because that would be a truly sad commentary of my Lord.

Do you believe that you yourself are an exemplary commentary of the Lord?

I am referring to the RCC organization itself, not any person that happens to attend that church. The RC Pope exalts himself above all this is God and the corruption in the RCC is profound. I'm grateful that the RCC is not the true Church because it would make ZERO sense.

The Church is people and those people include the ones who are in the hierarchy as well as all the laity and everyone who is in the body of Christ.  Thus you know by default that the Church is made up of sinners, as all those in the body of Christ are also sinners.  So that sinners sometimes sin shouldn't be a scandal to you or any other Christian.

Thus if we were to imagine for a minute that those men who constitute the Catholic hierarchy are "nothing special" in the body of Christ, the Church (all believers) is no less a poor model of Christ, a sad commentary of our Lord.

It makes even LESS sense for the Church to not be organized.  That idea defies what we see in the early Church in the Bible, and also what we see in the very next generation of believers, the ones who learned from the apostles themselves.  There has ALWAYS been organization in the Church, and that is exactly how the Bible reads.

So to propose that a known set of beliefs and practices as well as an organized hierarchy of authority in the Church exists goes against the word of God.  To imply that there is not a set of true beliefs that the believer must accept, nor that there are not a set of religious practices commanded by our Lord that the believer must do, or that if there was a hierarchy of the Church that existed it would not scandalize us, those things are ALL ANTI-SCRIPTURAL and therefore FALSE.

Again, I am not referring to people who attend the church, I am referring to  those who embody the organization. You do not embody the organization. You are a parishioner.

It makes little sense to religious folks that Jesus did not establish a new religion, but it makes perfect sense to those who are in the church, not a religion. It is not disorganized at all, it just isn't a worldly religion. Just as the Jew expected their Savior to be some strong man who would come and rule their kindgom, they were wrong. They expected something to look worldly. You are making the same mistake. His church is not what you imagine it is.

AGAIN, and most importantly, watch the signs. When the Vatican begins to openly discuss (and they may already be doing it) contact with alien beings, that will be the time you need to make a decision.

The organization are those attending the church too,to say different is a fabrication I believe.Its clear you are against the Catholic church for whatever personal reason that you have and to substantiate it these fabrications are a must but it doesnt make it a reality,it is your own personal reality.You should know that the church is not made up of what people believe personally about Christ and the gospel,the truth is a fact of reality and is not dependent upon the personal beliefs of individuals.The hierarchy was established in the begining and was a done deal whether we like it or not to me this is what really makes sense.Personally I would not have chosen the Catholic church but I had to be honest with myself and God,I needed to know the truth,aside from all the things people that are against the church dont like,I had to come to terms that morally no other church has the foundation that the church has as far as teaching on sin and death and salvation that if anyone is honest with the scriptures will see lines up,the soul that sins he shall die,this is the truth I had to come to terms with and dispite anything else,this is what tells me that the Catholic church is the church,simply because it has maintained the truth of sin and death,that every other group lost as a result of Luthers false teachings and to me these are a worse thing than anything that the Catholic church is accused of. ::shrug::

What then do you say other non Catholic believers are?  If "The Church"  is only the established system with the hierarchy that is the CC, what will become of those who Believe on Christ and are saved by His blood sacrifice, who have repented of their sins and received Him as Lord? Who do you say they are?  What do you say they are if they are not Catholic or a part of the CC system?

: kensington  Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 21:11:02
What then do you say other non Catholic believers are?  If "The Church"  is only the established system with the hierarchy that is the CC, what will become of those who Believe on Christ and are saved by His blood sacrifice, who have repented of their sins and received Him as Lord? Who do you say they are?  What do you say they are if they are not Catholic or a part of the CC system?

I'm not the you but traditional RCC teaching would hold them as heretics so... there's that.

Are you Catholic Lexknight?It was my understanding that to be considered a heritic,one would have to be a Catholic first before one could be considered a heritic and that the church accepts the faith and  trinitarian baptism of any group or persons as being in agreement of Catholic teaching and that if said persons are not in a state of mortal sin being in agreement with Catholic teaching can indeed be saved?not because their group says so but because they are in line with the teaching of the church.

: LexKnight  Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 21:16:11

: kensington  Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 21:11:02
What then do you say other non Catholic believers are?  If "The Church"  is only the established system with the hierarchy that is the CC, what will become of those who Believe on Christ and are saved by His blood sacrifice, who have repented of their sins and received Him as Lord? Who do you say they are?  What do you say they are if they are not Catholic or a part of the CC system?

I'm not the you but traditional RCC teaching would hold them as heretics so... there's that.

More than that. The official teaching is that those people are anathema, accursed.
Simply stated: they will go to hell.

Are you Catholic Lexknight?It was my understanding that to be considered a heritic,one would have to be a Catholic first before one could be considered a heritic and that the church accepts the faith and  trinitarian baptism of any group or persons as being in agreement of Catholic teaching and that if said persons are not in a state of mortal sin being in agreement with Catholic teaching can indeed be saved?not because their group says so but because they are in line with the teaching of the church.


Please be clear... they "Can be saved" or they "are Saved?"   I'd like to know how you declare them.  The BIBLE says they are saved.  What say you? 


Lex and AVZ... let's let James answer for himself.  Thanks.  I wanna know what I am dealing with when someone comes on declaring only the CC and it's hierarchy system is "The church"..  such as this. 

Im still in the learning process of the church,but before I decided to follow Catholic teaching,I came to the relization that salvation is not a permanent thing untill we are dead and rejected any form of calvinistic teaching of any kind meaning that I reject any teaching that even suggests that God interferes with human will or that the cross took away the penalty for sin except under the covenant of being obedient to Christ.So I reject the notion that the bible says anyone is unconditionally saved.Even groups that dont teach this still dont draw the lines of when a person is saved and when they are lost its still a grey area even to them,this is what lead me to believe that evangelical christianity is not in line with the truth of scripture when it comes to salvation,sin and death,the truth I believe of salvation is that one must be in an obedient relationship with Christ all of the time,thats calls for conditions,sin has the same results if you have been saved or not,the cross didnt change the the results of sin for anyone,I accepted this as truth before I ever considered the Catholic church and to believe otherwise is to believe a myth.That said basically I know that in the Catholic church there is a traditionalism that goes back before the second vatican council of 1965 which there were some changes made basically and this is my understanding of it which was meant to make it easier for non Catholics to become Catholics,which may or may not have been used and abused by some in which many traditionalists now oppose but still are in obedience to the what was accepted by the council of the church and the Pope.Im not positive but I believe you have to be Catholic before you can be counted as a heritic,those outside the church in ignorance but believe in Christ and have been baptised according to tradition in the name of Father Son and Holy Ghost and are not living in a state of mortal sin would be considered to be following the basic conditions of being what is called the state of grace even though they are not Catholic they are following basic Catholic teaching,I could be wrong but I believe that this was one of the results of the second vatican council of the 1960sCatholica or other Catholics here may be able to give more insight into this and I welcome any correction from other Catholics.

: James56  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 00:02:08
Im still in the learning process of the church,but before I decided to follow Catholic teaching,I came to the relization that salvation is not a permanent thing untill we are dead and rejected any form of calvinistic teaching of any kind meaning that I reject any teaching that even suggests that God interferes with human will or that the cross took away the penalty for sin except under the covenant of being obedient to Christ.So I reject the notion that the bible says anyone is unconditionally saved.Even groups that dont teach this still dont draw the lines of when a person is saved and when they are lost its still a grey area even to them,this is what lead me to believe that evangelical christianity is not in line with the truth of scripture when it comes to salvation,sin and death,the truth I believe of salvation is that one must be in an obedient relationship with Christ all of the time,thats calls for conditions,sin has the same results if you have been saved or not,the cross didnt change the the results of sin for anyone,I accepted this as truth before I ever considered the Catholic church and to believe otherwise is to believe a myth.That said basically I know that in the Catholic church there is a traditionalism that goes back before the second vatican council of 1965 which there were some changes made basically and this is my understanding of it which was meant to make it easier for non Catholics to become Catholics,which may or may not have been used and abused by some in which many traditionalists now oppose but still are in obedience to the what was accepted by the council of the church and the Pope.Im not positive but I believe you have to be Catholic before you can be counted as a heritic,those outside the church in ignorance but believe in Christ and have been baptised according to tradition in the name of Father Son and Holy Ghost and are not living in a state of mortal sin would be considered to be following the basic conditions of being what is called the state of grace even though they are not Catholic they are following basic Catholic teaching,I could be wrong but I believe that this was one of the results of the second vatican council of the 1960sCatholica or other Catholics here may be able to give more insight into this and I welcome any correction from other Catholics.

Council of Florence, Cantate Domino (1441):

"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the "eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."


Pope Boniface VIII, Bull Unam sanctam (1302):

"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."


Seems clear to me.

: James56  Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 20:15:36
The organization are those attending the church too,to say different is a fabrication I believe.Its clear you are against the Catholic church for whatever personal reason that you have and to substantiate it these fabrications are a must but it doesnt make it a reality,it is your own personal reality.You should know that the church is not made up of what people believe personally about Christ and the gospel,the truth is a fact of reality and is not dependent upon the personal beliefs of individuals.The hierarchy was established in the begining and was a done deal whether we like it or not to me this is what really makes sense.Personally I would not have chosen the Catholic church but I had to be honest with myself and God,I needed to know the truth,aside from all the things people that are against the church dont like,I had to come to terms that morally no other church has the foundation that the church has as far as teaching on sin and death and salvation that if anyone is honest with the scriptures will see lines up,the soul that sins he shall die,this is the truth I had to come to terms with and dispite anything else,this is what tells me that the Catholic church is the church,simply because it has maintained the truth of sin and death,that every other group lost as a result of Luthers false teachings and to me these are a worse thing than anything that the Catholic church is accused of. ::shrug::

No, the parishioners are not part of the RCC 'organization'. The parishioners are the subjects. Parishioners are not in control of the organization, only those who 'work for it'.

: James56  Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 22:13:24
Are you Catholic Lexknight?It was my understanding that to be considered a heritic,one would have to be a Catholic first before one could be considered a heritic and that the church accepts the faith and  trinitarian baptism of any group or persons as being in agreement of Catholic teaching and that if said persons are not in a state of mortal sin being in agreement with Catholic teaching can indeed be saved?not because their group says so but because they are in line with the teaching of the church.

It is hilarious that the only people who the RCC considers heretic and those who know the truth about the RCC and then reject it. They are usually born-again Christians, the true church.

: AVZ  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 04:16:05

: James56  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 00:02:08
Im still in the learning process of the church,but before I decided to follow Catholic teaching,I came to the relization that salvation is not a permanent thing untill we are dead and rejected any form of calvinistic teaching of any kind meaning that I reject any teaching that even suggests that God interferes with human will or that the cross took away the penalty for sin except under the covenant of being obedient to Christ.So I reject the notion that the bible says anyone is unconditionally saved.Even groups that dont teach this still dont draw the lines of when a person is saved and when they are lost its still a grey area even to them,this is what lead me to believe that evangelical christianity is not in line with the truth of scripture when it comes to salvation,sin and death,the truth I believe of salvation is that one must be in an obedient relationship with Christ all of the time,thats calls for conditions,sin has the same results if you have been saved or not,the cross didnt change the the results of sin for anyone,I accepted this as truth before I ever considered the Catholic church and to believe otherwise is to believe a myth.That said basically I know that in the Catholic church there is a traditionalism that goes back before the second vatican council of 1965 which there were some changes made basically and this is my understanding of it which was meant to make it easier for non Catholics to become Catholics,which may or may not have been used and abused by some in which many traditionalists now oppose but still are in obedience to the what was accepted by the council of the church and the Pope.Im not positive but I believe you have to be Catholic before you can be counted as a heritic,those outside the church in ignorance but believe in Christ and have been baptised according to tradition in the name of Father Son and Holy Ghost and are not living in a state of mortal sin would be considered to be following the basic conditions of being what is called the state of grace even though they are not Catholic they are following basic Catholic teaching,I could be wrong but I believe that this was one of the results of the second vatican council of the 1960sCatholica or other Catholics here may be able to give more insight into this and I welcome any correction from other Catholics.

Council of Florence, Cantate Domino (1441):

"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the "eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."


Pope Boniface VIII, Bull Unam sanctam (1302):

"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."


Seems clear to me.

I believe the Vatican has since changed their minds. Every path leads to God except the narrow one.

: James56  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 00:02:08
Im still in the learning process of the church,but before I decided to follow Catholic teaching,I came to the relization that salvation is not a permanent thing untill we are dead and rejected any form of calvinistic teaching of any kind meaning that I reject any teaching that even suggests that God interferes with human will or that the cross took away the penalty for sin except under the covenant of being obedient to Christ.So I reject the notion that the bible says anyone is unconditionally saved.Even groups that dont teach this still dont draw the lines of when a person is saved and when they are lost its still a grey area even to them,this is what lead me to believe that evangelical christianity is not in line with the truth of scripture when it comes to salvation,sin and death,the truth I believe of salvation is that one must be in an obedient relationship with Christ all of the time,thats calls for conditions,sin has the same results if you have been saved or not,the cross didnt change the the results of sin for anyone,I accepted this as truth before I ever considered the Catholic church and to believe otherwise is to believe a myth.That said basically I know that in the Catholic church there is a traditionalism that goes back before the second vatican council of 1965 which there were some changes made basically and this is my understanding of it which was meant to make it easier for non Catholics to become Catholics,which may or may not have been used and abused by some in which many traditionalists now oppose but still are in obedience to the what was accepted by the council of the church and the Pope.Im not positive but I believe you have to be Catholic before you can be counted as a heritic,those outside the church in ignorance but believe in Christ and have been baptised according to tradition in the name of Father Son and Holy Ghost and are not living in a state of mortal sin would be considered to be following the basic conditions of being what is called the state of grace even though they are not Catholic they are following basic Catholic teaching,I could be wrong but I believe that this was one of the results of the second vatican council of the 1960sCatholica or other Catholics here may be able to give more insight into this and I welcome any correction from other Catholics.

James,
I'm going to give you the same warning I have given other Catholics. When the Vatican begins to openly discuss contact with alien beings, beware of this. This will be the beginning of the great deception. Remember.. and when that happens it will be crucial that you make a decision to believe the Vatican and the Great Deception or to turn to the truth.

: His Kid  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 07:43:08

: AVZ  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 04:16:05

: James56  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 00:02:08
Im still in the learning process of the church,but before I decided to follow Catholic teaching,I came to the relization that salvation is not a permanent thing untill we are dead and rejected any form of calvinistic teaching of any kind meaning that I reject any teaching that even suggests that God interferes with human will or that the cross took away the penalty for sin except under the covenant of being obedient to Christ.So I reject the notion that the bible says anyone is unconditionally saved.Even groups that dont teach this still dont draw the lines of when a person is saved and when they are lost its still a grey area even to them,this is what lead me to believe that evangelical christianity is not in line with the truth of scripture when it comes to salvation,sin and death,the truth I believe of salvation is that one must be in an obedient relationship with Christ all of the time,thats calls for conditions,sin has the same results if you have been saved or not,the cross didnt change the the results of sin for anyone,I accepted this as truth before I ever considered the Catholic church and to believe otherwise is to believe a myth.That said basically I know that in the Catholic church there is a traditionalism that goes back before the second vatican council of 1965 which there were some changes made basically and this is my understanding of it which was meant to make it easier for non Catholics to become Catholics,which may or may not have been used and abused by some in which many traditionalists now oppose but still are in obedience to the what was accepted by the council of the church and the Pope.Im not positive but I believe you have to be Catholic before you can be counted as a heritic,those outside the church in ignorance but believe in Christ and have been baptised according to tradition in the name of Father Son and Holy Ghost and are not living in a state of mortal sin would be considered to be following the basic conditions of being what is called the state of grace even though they are not Catholic they are following basic Catholic teaching,I could be wrong but I believe that this was one of the results of the second vatican council of the 1960sCatholica or other Catholics here may be able to give more insight into this and I welcome any correction from other Catholics.

Council of Florence, Cantate Domino (1441):

"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the "eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."


Pope Boniface VIII, Bull Unam sanctam (1302):

"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."


Seems clear to me.

I believe the Vatican has since changed their minds. Every path leads to God except the narrow one.

Nope. The Vatican has not changed their mind...they can't.
These statements are dogma's. Dogma's are infallible and can't be changed.

And yep, they have now explained the dogma's as an application of convenience so that even Muslims are part of the plan of salvation.
The path indeed has become a highway.

: AVZ  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 07:58:35

: His Kid  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 07:43:08

: AVZ  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 04:16:05

: James56  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 00:02:08
Im still in the learning process of the church,but before I decided to follow Catholic teaching,I came to the relization that salvation is not a permanent thing untill we are dead and rejected any form of calvinistic teaching of any kind meaning that I reject any teaching that even suggests that God interferes with human will or that the cross took away the penalty for sin except under the covenant of being obedient to Christ.So I reject the notion that the bible says anyone is unconditionally saved.Even groups that dont teach this still dont draw the lines of when a person is saved and when they are lost its still a grey area even to them,this is what lead me to believe that evangelical christianity is not in line with the truth of scripture when it comes to salvation,sin and death,the truth I believe of salvation is that one must be in an obedient relationship with Christ all of the time,thats calls for conditions,sin has the same results if you have been saved or not,the cross didnt change the the results of sin for anyone,I accepted this as truth before I ever considered the Catholic church and to believe otherwise is to believe a myth.That said basically I know that in the Catholic church there is a traditionalism that goes back before the second vatican council of 1965 which there were some changes made basically and this is my understanding of it which was meant to make it easier for non Catholics to become Catholics,which may or may not have been used and abused by some in which many traditionalists now oppose but still are in obedience to the what was accepted by the council of the church and the Pope.Im not positive but I believe you have to be Catholic before you can be counted as a heritic,those outside the church in ignorance but believe in Christ and have been baptised according to tradition in the name of Father Son and Holy Ghost and are not living in a state of mortal sin would be considered to be following the basic conditions of being what is called the state of grace even though they are not Catholic they are following basic Catholic teaching,I could be wrong but I believe that this was one of the results of the second vatican council of the 1960sCatholica or other Catholics here may be able to give more insight into this and I welcome any correction from other Catholics.

Council of Florence, Cantate Domino (1441):

"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the "eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."


Pope Boniface VIII, Bull Unam sanctam (1302):

"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."


Seems clear to me.

I believe the Vatican has since changed their minds. Every path leads to God except the narrow one.

Nope. The Vatican has not changed their mind...they can't.
These statements are dogma's. Dogma's are infallible and can't be changed.

And yep, they have now explained the dogma's as an application of convenience so that even Muslims are part of the plan of salvation.
The path indeed has become a highway.

Indeed the path to hell has always been a highway.

: James56  Tue Jan 19, 2016 - 22:13:24
Are you Catholic Lexknight?It was my understanding that to be considered a heritic,one would have to be a Catholic first before one could be considered a heritic and that the church accepts the faith and  trinitarian baptism of any group or persons as being in agreement of Catholic teaching and that if said persons are not in a state of mortal sin being in agreement with Catholic teaching can indeed be saved?not because their group says so but because they are in line with the teaching of the church.

To be fair, I wouldn't think it's wrong either. If one is aware of the truth but reject it, he wi)  have no favor and his blood is on his hand. If the RCC was established in truth, it wouldn't be an erred doctrine. Thing is... it depends on the RCC being established in truth, which it isn't. If it was, then yes non-Catholics would be anathema.

And heresy simply means division or sect, so of course the Protestants are heretics in regards to the RCC.

All opinions.

: James56  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 11:00:32
All opinions.

I just hope you heed the warning. Do a little research on the Vatican observatory on Mt. Graham in Arizona and the telescope next to it called Lucifer.

By whos authority does your warning come from?

The Vatican has always believed that the heavens proclaim the glory of God and have sought to advance scientific knowledge about the heavens.

This whole "accepting alien life forms being the sign of the apocalypse" is tinfoil hat stuff; reasonable people rightly laugh it off for the farce that it is.

: James56  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 11:54:51
By whos authority does your warning come from?

What? Are you interested in facts or not? Do the research or don't. I do not care. I'm not invested in your life.

: Catholica  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 12:49:54
The Vatican has always believed that the heavens proclaim the glory of God and have sought to advance scientific knowledge about the heavens.

This whole "accepting alien life forms being the sign of the apocalypse" is tinfoil hat stuff; reasonable people rightly laugh it off for the farce that it is.

You have been very well primed to accept the Great Deception. There is already much activity above Mt. Graham in Arizona. The Vatican proclaims they want to contact alien life and baptize them into the RCC. LOL. They aren't life forms from other planets. It is all demonic activity.

You have been warned.

: His Kid  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 12:57:31

: Catholica  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 12:49:54
The Vatican has always believed that the heavens proclaim the glory of God and have sought to advance scientific knowledge about the heavens.

This whole "accepting alien life forms being the sign of the apocalypse" is tinfoil hat stuff; reasonable people rightly laugh it off for the farce that it is.

You have been very well primed to accept the Great Deception. There is already much activity above Mt. Graham in Arizona. The Vatican proclaims they want to contact alien life and baptize them into the RCC. LOL. They aren't life forms from other planets. It is all demonic activity.

You have been warned.

Warned by someone wearing a tinfoil hat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_foil_hat).  Got it. 

: Catholica  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 13:07:27

: His Kid  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 12:57:31

: Catholica  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 12:49:54
The Vatican has always believed that the heavens proclaim the glory of God and have sought to advance scientific knowledge about the heavens.

This whole "accepting alien life forms being the sign of the apocalypse" is tinfoil hat stuff; reasonable people rightly laugh it off for the farce that it is.

You have been very well primed to accept the Great Deception. There is already much activity above Mt. Graham in Arizona. The Vatican proclaims they want to contact alien life and baptize them into the RCC. LOL. They aren't life forms from other planets. It is all demonic activity.

You have been warned.

Warned by someone wearing a tinfoil hat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_foil_hat).  Got it.

If mocking me makes you feel better, that's cool... but one day when this is all going down,  you will remember this conversation...

: His Kid  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 13:13:45

: Catholica  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 13:07:27

: His Kid  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 12:57:31

: Catholica  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 12:49:54
The Vatican has always believed that the heavens proclaim the glory of God and have sought to advance scientific knowledge about the heavens.

This whole "accepting alien life forms being the sign of the apocalypse" is tinfoil hat stuff; reasonable people rightly laugh it off for the farce that it is.

You have been very well primed to accept the Great Deception. There is already much activity above Mt. Graham in Arizona. The Vatican proclaims they want to contact alien life and baptize them into the RCC. LOL. They aren't life forms from other planets. It is all demonic activity.

You have been warned.

Warned by someone wearing a tinfoil hat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_foil_hat).  Got it.

If mocking me makes you feel better, that's cool... but one day when this is all going down,  you will remember this conversation...

...and I'll remember how you made no rational argument for or against anything ever and laced what you did write with distortions and half-truths, and I will disregard it.

: Catholica  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 13:17:47

: His Kid  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 13:13:45

: Catholica  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 13:07:27

: His Kid  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 12:57:31

: Catholica  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 12:49:54
The Vatican has always believed that the heavens proclaim the glory of God and have sought to advance scientific knowledge about the heavens.

This whole "accepting alien life forms being the sign of the apocalypse" is tinfoil hat stuff; reasonable people rightly laugh it off for the farce that it is.

You have been very well primed to accept the Great Deception. There is already much activity above Mt. Graham in Arizona. The Vatican proclaims they want to contact alien life and baptize them into the RCC. LOL. They aren't life forms from other planets. It is all demonic activity.

You have been warned.

Warned by someone wearing a tinfoil hat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_foil_hat).  Got it.

If mocking me makes you feel better, that's cool... but one day when this is all going down,  you will remember this conversation...

...and I'll remember how you made no rational argument for or against anything ever and laced what you did write with distortions and half-truths, and I will disregard it.

You can find out yourself what the Vatican is doing on Mt. Graham in union with the telescope Lucifer. You have already decided you believe there might be aliens who need to be reached, so you won't need to be convinced when it happens. They are demons, not aliens, but you won't care. You've already bought into the lie.

: His Kid  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 13:19:45

: Catholica  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 13:17:47

: His Kid  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 13:13:45

: Catholica  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 13:07:27

: His Kid  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 12:57:31

: Catholica  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 12:49:54
The Vatican has always believed that the heavens proclaim the glory of God and have sought to advance scientific knowledge about the heavens.

This whole "accepting alien life forms being the sign of the apocalypse" is tinfoil hat stuff; reasonable people rightly laugh it off for the farce that it is.

You have been very well primed to accept the Great Deception. There is already much activity above Mt. Graham in Arizona. The Vatican proclaims they want to contact alien life and baptize them into the RCC. LOL. They aren't life forms from other planets. It is all demonic activity.

You have been warned.

Warned by someone wearing a tinfoil hat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_foil_hat).  Got it.

If mocking me makes you feel better, that's cool... but one day when this is all going down,  you will remember this conversation...

...and I'll remember how you made no rational argument for or against anything ever and laced what you did write with distortions and half-truths, and I will disregard it.

You can find out yourself what the Vatican is doing on Mt. Graham in union with the telescope Lucifer. You have already decided you believe there might be aliens who need to be reached, so you won't need to be convinced when it happens. They are demons, not aliens, but you won't care. You've already bought into the lie.

I already know all about it.  I've read about Mt. Graham in various times in the past when other anti-Catholics have brought it up.

By the way,

1) The other telescope just happens to be located near the Vatican telescope, but the two groups are not related nor does the Vatican have anything to do with the other telescope
2) The Vatican telescope is not used to search for E.T., and
3) the other telescope is now called "LUCI" not "LUCIFER"

And that 1) and 3) should even be considered significant is like saying that because the cat in the movie "Cinderella" is named "Lucifer", then the mice who live in Cinderella's house must be in league with the devil.  It's really that ridiculous to even make the association.  To make it significant is quite a stretch; one can only wonder what reason one would have to make that stretch.

: Catholica  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 14:27:35

: His Kid  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 13:19:45

: Catholica  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 13:17:47

: His Kid  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 13:13:45

: Catholica  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 13:07:27

: His Kid  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 12:57:31

: Catholica  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 12:49:54
The Vatican has always believed that the heavens proclaim the glory of God and have sought to advance scientific knowledge about the heavens.

This whole "accepting alien life forms being the sign of the apocalypse" is tinfoil hat stuff; reasonable people rightly laugh it off for the farce that it is.

You have been very well primed to accept the Great Deception. There is already much activity above Mt. Graham in Arizona. The Vatican proclaims they want to contact alien life and baptize them into the RCC. LOL. They aren't life forms from other planets. It is all demonic activity.

You have been warned.

Warned by someone wearing a tinfoil hat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_foil_hat).  Got it.

If mocking me makes you feel better, that's cool... but one day when this is all going down,  you will remember this conversation...

...and I'll remember how you made no rational argument for or against anything ever and laced what you did write with distortions and half-truths, and I will disregard it.

You can find out yourself what the Vatican is doing on Mt. Graham in union with the telescope Lucifer. You have already decided you believe there might be aliens who need to be reached, so you won't need to be convinced when it happens. They are demons, not aliens, but you won't care. You've already bought into the lie.

I already know all about it.  I've read about Mt. Graham in various times in the past when other anti-Catholics have brought it up.

By the way,

1) The other telescope just happens to be located near the Vatican telescope, but the two groups are not related nor does the Vatican have anything to do with the other telescope
2) The Vatican telescope is not used to search for E.T., and
3) the other telescope is now called "LUCI" not "LUCIFER"

And that 1) and 3) should even be considered significant is like saying that because the cat in the movie "Cinderella" is named "Lucifer", then the mice who live in Cinderella's house must be in league with the devil.  It's really that ridiculous to even make the association.  To make it significant is quite a stretch; one can only wonder what reason one would have to make that stretch.

LUCI is a nickname. The telescope is still called Lucifer. You obviously haven't done the research you claim to have done. Further, the Vatican and Lucifer are working closely together. You can deny it, but that changes nothing.


As Popular Science explains, LUCIFER is an acronym for the instruments lengthy title, "Large Binocular Telescope Near-infrared Utility with Camera and Integral Field Unit for Extragalactic Research." This instrument is attached to the University of Arizona's Large Binocular Telescope (LBT) located on Mt. Graham in south eastern Arizona. The Vatican-owned Vatican Advanced Technology Telescope (VATT) is right next door.


The bottom line is, the Vatican is seeking extraterrestrials in order to share the gospel with them and baptize them into the RCC. These 'beings' will not question the authority of the Vatican. It's all a set up and will progress into the Pope declaring to be God on earth. He's not far from that right now. He basically already claims to be Christ on earth. He is one step away from claiming to be God. You already believe the lie, so you are not someone that even needs to hear this. You have fallen for the Great Deception and will never question anything the Vatican tells you. Just watch it all unfold. It's coming.

Here is an article that debunks the preposterous claims that Tom Horn, the fabricator of the fantasies "His Kid" believes, makes in his ridiculous book:

http://barthsnotes.com/2013/05/01/vatican-astronomer-claims-thomas-horn-twisted-misquoted-his-words-invented-utter-falsehoods/ (http://barthsnotes.com/2013/05/01/vatican-astronomer-claims-thomas-horn-twisted-misquoted-his-words-invented-utter-falsehoods/)

: Catholica  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 15:05:11
Here is an article that debunks the preposterous claims that Tom Horn, the fabricator of the fantasies "His Kid" believes, makes in his ridiculous book:

http://barthsnotes.com/2013/05/01/vatican-astronomer-claims-thomas-horn-twisted-misquoted-his-words-invented-utter-falsehoods/ (http://barthsnotes.com/2013/05/01/vatican-astronomer-claims-thomas-horn-twisted-misquoted-his-words-invented-utter-falsehoods/)

Obviously someone is going to try to debunk the story because the Vatican is not ready to speak about it publicly. Eventually the Vatican will speak out it openly because that is the plan. They WILL make contact with extraterrestrials. Even you believe they will. I'm not sure which part of this you don't believe, but it will happen. Contact is coming and the Vatican is the main player.

What is it that you don't believe about what I have said?

: His Kid  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 15:09:38

: Catholica  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 15:05:11
Here is an article that debunks the preposterous claims that Tom Horn, the fabricator of the fantasies "His Kid" believes, makes in his ridiculous book:

http://barthsnotes.com/2013/05/01/vatican-astronomer-claims-thomas-horn-twisted-misquoted-his-words-invented-utter-falsehoods/ (http://barthsnotes.com/2013/05/01/vatican-astronomer-claims-thomas-horn-twisted-misquoted-his-words-invented-utter-falsehoods/)

Obviously someone is going to try to debunk the story because the Vatican is not ready to speak about it publicly.

So the astronomer who had his words distorted was 1) willing to talk to an anonymous reporter that he never met, but 2) the Vatican is not ready to talk about it publicly?  If 2) was true then 1) would not have happened in the first place. Rather, the author is trying to make a buck on a conspiracy theory book, truth be damned.

: Catholica  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 15:32:47

: His Kid  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 15:09:38

: Catholica  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 15:05:11
Here is an article that debunks the preposterous claims that Tom Horn, the fabricator of the fantasies "His Kid" believes, makes in his ridiculous book:

http://barthsnotes.com/2013/05/01/vatican-astronomer-claims-thomas-horn-twisted-misquoted-his-words-invented-utter-falsehoods/ (http://barthsnotes.com/2013/05/01/vatican-astronomer-claims-thomas-horn-twisted-misquoted-his-words-invented-utter-falsehoods/)

Obviously someone is going to try to debunk the story because the Vatican is not ready to speak about it publicly.

So the astronomer who had his words distorted was 1) willing to talk to an anonymous reporter that he never met, but 2) the Vatican is not ready to talk about it publicly?  If 2) was true then 1) would not have happened in the first place. Rather, the author is trying to make a buck on a conspiracy theory book, truth be damned.

What is the astronomer debunking exactly?

Catholica


Your source does not even believe in extraterrestrials, Many Catholics do, as does those working on the project trying to find them from Mt. Graham by instruction of the Vatican. What in the heck do you think they are doing up there, anyway? lol

As far as Jesus being a 'hybrid', that claim is not made. The authors are merely speculating on what elaborate story the Vatican MIGHT come up with to explain the events at that time. They will come up with some ridiculous lie that many will believe. They have a very long and successful history of doing exactly that.

They will happen. The Vatican is attempting to make contact and they will.

: His Kid  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 15:35:09

: Catholica  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 15:32:47

: His Kid  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 15:09:38

: Catholica  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 15:05:11
Here is an article that debunks the preposterous claims that Tom Horn, the fabricator of the fantasies "His Kid" believes, makes in his ridiculous book:

http://barthsnotes.com/2013/05/01/vatican-astronomer-claims-thomas-horn-twisted-misquoted-his-words-invented-utter-falsehoods/ (http://barthsnotes.com/2013/05/01/vatican-astronomer-claims-thomas-horn-twisted-misquoted-his-words-invented-utter-falsehoods/)

Obviously someone is going to try to debunk the story because the Vatican is not ready to speak about it publicly.

So the astronomer who had his words distorted was 1) willing to talk to an anonymous reporter that he never met, but 2) the Vatican is not ready to talk about it publicly?  If 2) was true then 1) would not have happened in the first place. Rather, the author is trying to make a buck on a conspiracy theory book, truth be damned.

What is the astronomer debunking exactly?

He is debunking the "quotes" of him the charlatan of an author who wrote the book from whence the conspiracy theory to which you subscribe came.

Here is his full statement, from http://brotherguy.livejournal.com/74394.html (http://brotherguy.livejournal.com/74394.html:), emphasis his:

Br. Guy Consolmagno, the Vatican, Alien Extraterrestrial UFOs, and stuff...

The title is designed to reach anyone who has heard about me from a web site or book purporting to express my views on these subjects.

About a year ago, an author (whom I will not name or link to) conducted an extensive interview with me by email. I thought he was a legitimate journalist. However, seeing the ways in which he has twisted, misquoted, and invented utter falsehoods from the things I said, I have come to suspect that he is either a knave or a fool.

There are no Vatican secrets about UFOs. Neither I nor anyone I know has any evidence that extraterrestrials exist. We do not believe that "Jesus is a hybrid" or any of the other bizarre claims that this author makes. He is either seriously deluded, or a deliberate con-man.

Let me phrase this as strongly as I can: I do not know of any credible evidence at all that there has ever been contact of any form between extraterrestrial aliens and Earth. Period. I cannot imagine a circumstance where such contact could be kept secret for very long. And I say this, not only as an active astronomer for 40 years, but also as someone who knows lots of people in the SETI community (who would love to have such evidence), and as someone who's been an officer in the American Astronomical Society and in the International Astronomical Union. If there was something like this going on, we'd all be talking about it. There isn't, and we aren't.

That is a quote taken directly from one of the emails that I sent this author!

Here are some other things that I sent him in my emails:

... talking about Unidentified Flying Objects, which is to say, odd things seen in the sky, I have no problem with that. There are objects in the sky, presumably flying, that many people have a hard time identifying. "UFO" is certainly the right term for that! But once you insist that they are evidence of aliens, or government conspiracies, or for that matter once you try to fit these phenomena into any other preconceived notion, they are no longer "unidentified" -- you have implicitly identified them. And I am highly skeptical of any proposed identifications that rely on aliens, extraterrestrials, conspiracies, etc. ... We have no artifacts from UFOs in our labs. We have nothing to test. Thus my skepticism.

I also note that there is a population of very skilled observers who spend a lot of time outdoors at night, without any connection with (or control by) the government or any other "official" institution: these are the large number of amateur astronomers around the world who own their own telescopes and spend hundreds of hours observing the skies. And you find that these people tend to be the most skeptical of all about UFO claims. Because they know the sky really well, and spend a lot of time looking into it, they are very familiar with what is out there... and though they see many unusual things in the sky, they are able to identify them without recourse to unknown, unidentified causes.

In response to a question about "official positions from the Vatican" about extraterrestrial life, I wrote to him:

There are no "official Vatican positions" on such topics. Nor is it a new idea; you can find people talking about this over the last thousand years... I have no idea how the Church would respond. It has been the subject of any number of science fiction stories; most of them not very good, I'm afraid.

Finally, some of his material appears to have originated in an article that appeared in a British newspaper in 2005, apparently referring to something called "The Jesus Seed".  When he asked me about it, I replied:

Virtually everything in this article (about me at least) is wrong... sometimes in trivial ways (I'm not a Star Trek fan), sometimes in important ways (nothing I said in my Catholic Truth Society booklet is new, much less controversial). Some of it might simply be the author's honest misunderstanding of what I was trying to say, because he read it in the light of his own unshakable prejudices... But most of it is pure invention on his part.

(A few trivial words in the above quotes have been altered so that they make sense in the context. I cannot possibly see how he can derive the conclusions purported to come from me, in the light of these direct statements I wrote to him.)

This conspiracy that you believe, His Kid, is the fabrication of a charlatan or a mad man, one of the two.

: His Kid  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 15:44:18
Catholica


Your source does not even believe in extraterrestrials, Many Catholics do, as does those working on the project trying to find them from Mt. Graham by instruction of the Vatican. What in the heck do you think they are doing up there, anyway? lol

Studying the stars, as they have since the day a Catholic invented the telescope.  The laughable thing is that you think they are looking for aliens.  How backwards.

: Catholica  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 15:53:15

: His Kid  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 15:44:18
Catholica


Your source does not even believe in extraterrestrials, Many Catholics do, as does those working on the project trying to find them from Mt. Graham by instruction of the Vatican. What in the heck do you think they are doing up there, anyway? lol

Studying the stars, as they have since the day a Catholic invented the telescope.  The laughable thing is that you think they are looking for aliens.  How backwards.

There is so much activity in the skies that cannot be explained. There is UFO activity. An abundance. The Vatican is quite interested in it. You obviously don't get it now, but you will. When you see it all play out, you will remember this conversation.

Maybe you should have a chat with your pal Thadeous. He believes in extraterrestrials and has no problem accepting the fact that the Vatican is trying to make contact.

However, it hardly matters. I just gave the warning. You can laugh all you like. I don't mind. It is good news that you don't believe in aliens. I don't either. They are demons, not aliens. Maybe when the Vatican announces they have made contact, you will finally walk away from that religion.

James 56... you might want to do some research, because the Vatican does indeed declare the "Other" ..  Spirit filled, born again, people who are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone, and baptized are saved.  But, not Catholic.

I realize that is conflicting to things you may have been told or that others are saying.  But, it's true. 

And we know that the Bible says these saved ones are the Biblical church who await the return of Christ.  You will not go to hell for not being Catholic. 

: Catholica  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 15:53:15

: His Kid  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 15:44:18
Catholica


Your source does not even believe in extraterrestrials, Many Catholics do, as does those working on the project trying to find them from Mt. Graham by instruction of the Vatican. What in the heck do you think they are doing up there, anyway? lol

Studying the stars, as they have since the day a Catholic invented the telescope.  The laughable thing is that you think they are looking for aliens.  How backwards.

What does religion have to do with inventing the telescope?
Anyway, who do you claim invented it?

A Dutchman who may or may not have been Catholic invented the telescope.  He applied for the first patent in 1608,  and by that time the Dutch were splitting from Catholic to Protestant.  In the 1500's the Dutch were Catholic.  But, there is no evidence that the person who invented the telescope was.  But, it's probable.

: kensington  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 19:28:25
A Dutchman who may or may not have been Catholic invented the telescope.  He applied for the first patent in 1608,  and by that time the Dutch were splitting from Catholic to Protestant.  In the 1500's the Dutch were Catholic.  But, there is no evidence that the person who invented the telescope was.  But, it's probable.

What doesn't seem probable to me is that every Dutch person was Catholic. That doesn't even make sense.

What doesn't seem probable to me is that every Dutch person was Catholic. That doesn't even make sense.


They weren't.  I said the telescope was invented in the early 1600's and by that time the Dutch Protestant split had started. It's a could be or not situation as to the inventor being Catholic as you stated.

This may clarify Dutch religion history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Dutch_religion

: kensington  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 21:18:12
What doesn't seem probable to me is that every Dutch person was Catholic. That doesn't even make sense.


They weren't.  I said the telescope was invented in the early 1600's and by that time the Dutch Protestant split had started. It's a could be or not situation as to the inventor being Catholic as you stated.

This may clarify Dutch religion history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Dutch_religion

What I read is that a Dutch guy patented the telescope. Doesn't mean he invented it.
But even so, if the argument holds that something is right because a Catholic did it...then who invented the mafia?
Franco was a Catholic, so were Hitler, Mussolini, Petain and Ferdinand Marcos.
Ever heard about drug trade and drug murders? What denomination are these people in South America again?

If Catholica's argument is valid then the RCC is a criminal organisation.

I was not speaking to the good or evil in who did or did not invent it.  I was just saying...  it was someone Dutch and they could have been protestant. It's not an absolute that they were Catholic, but there is a good chance.

: AVZ  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 23:38:21

: kensington  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 21:18:12
What doesn't seem probable to me is that every Dutch person was Catholic. That doesn't even make sense.


They weren't.  I said the telescope was invented in the early 1600's and by that time the Dutch Protestant split had started. It's a could be or not situation as to the inventor being Catholic as you stated.

This may clarify Dutch religion history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Dutch_religion

What I read is that a Dutch guy patented the telescope. Doesn't mean he invented it.
But even so, if the argument holds that something is right because a Catholic did it...then who invented the mafia?
Franco was a Catholic, so were Hitler, Mussolini, Petain and Ferdinand Marcos.
Ever heard about drug trade and drug murders? What denomination are these people in South America again?

If Catholica's argument is valid then the RCC is a criminal organisation.

Hitler was going down the path to wipe out the Mafia for good and that's a fact and another fact is that the USA helped support the Mafia.

Hitler was baptised a RC, but he sure was no supporter of the RCC.

Hitler was not on about the Holy Ghost at all and nor were all the other people you just mentioned above, all of them were worldly in their ambition.

The RCC calls it's self a Church of Saints and sinners, maybe if they kicked out the sinners all would be ok, but they will not kick out the sinners. ::lookaround::

: Hexalpa  Fri Jan 22, 2016 - 03:36:17

: AVZ  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 23:38:21

: kensington  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 21:18:12
What doesn't seem probable to me is that every Dutch person was Catholic. That doesn't even make sense.


They weren't.  I said the telescope was invented in the early 1600's and by that time the Dutch Protestant split had started. It's a could be or not situation as to the inventor being Catholic as you stated.

This may clarify Dutch religion history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Dutch_religion

What I read is that a Dutch guy patented the telescope. Doesn't mean he invented it.
But even so, if the argument holds that something is right because a Catholic did it...then who invented the mafia?
Franco was a Catholic, so were Hitler, Mussolini, Petain and Ferdinand Marcos.
Ever heard about drug trade and drug murders? What denomination are these people in South America again?

If Catholica's argument is valid then the RCC is a criminal organisation.

Hitler was going down the path to wipe out the Mafia for good and that's a fact and another fact is that the USA helped support the Mafia.

Hitler was baptised a RC, but he sure was no supporter of the RCC.

Hitler was not on about the Holy Ghost at all and nor were all the other people you just mentioned above, all of them were worldly in their ambition.

The RCC calls it's self a Church of Saints and sinners, maybe if they kicked out the sinners all would be ok, but they will not kick out the sinners. ::lookaround::

Kicked out the sinners   ???

: Hexalpa  Fri Jan 22, 2016 - 03:36:17

: AVZ  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 23:38:21

: kensington  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 21:18:12
What doesn't seem probable to me is that every Dutch person was Catholic. That doesn't even make sense.


They weren't.  I said the telescope was invented in the early 1600's and by that time the Dutch Protestant split had started. It's a could be or not situation as to the inventor being Catholic as you stated.

This may clarify Dutch religion history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Dutch_religion

What I read is that a Dutch guy patented the telescope. Doesn't mean he invented it.
But even so, if the argument holds that something is right because a Catholic did it...then who invented the mafia?
Franco was a Catholic, so were Hitler, Mussolini, Petain and Ferdinand Marcos.
Ever heard about drug trade and drug murders? What denomination are these people in South America again?

If Catholica's argument is valid then the RCC is a criminal organisation.

Hitler was going down the path to wipe out the Mafia for good and that's a fact and another fact is that the USA helped support the Mafia.

Hitler was baptised a RC, but he sure was no supporter of the RCC.

Hitler was not on about the Holy Ghost at all and nor were all the other people you just mentioned above, all of them were worldly in their ambition.

The RCC calls it's self a Church of Saints and sinners, maybe if they kicked out the sinners all would be ok, but they will not kick out the sinners. ::lookaround::

Everyone is a sinner.

Kicked out the sinners  ???   Really ??? 

Everyone is a sinner.   Seriously  ???

I think the intent of the comment is clear.  He meant those who dwell in sin in the church.  The corrupt, evil men who lied and stole from the people in the church.  Those who controlled and dominated the people in the church.

Come on, is the intent really that cloudy?  Not to me. 

The RCC has a history of corrupt and morally bankrupt Popes, Priests, and Bishops...  Had they thrown them out.  The Catholic church could be different.  Think, people, think. 

: kensington  Fri Jan 22, 2016 - 14:43:43
I think the intent of the comment is clear.  He meant those who dwell in sin in the church.  The corrupt, evil men who lied and stole from the people in the church.  Those who controlled and dominated the people in the church.

Come on, is the intent really that cloudy?  Not to me. 

The RCC has a history of corrupt and morally bankrupt Popes, Priests, and Bishops...  Had they thrown them out.  The Catholic church could be different.  Think, people, think.

The RCC had no reason or motivation to excommunicate morally bankrupt people because the Vatican itself is morally bankrupt.

Kensington showed a good flaw in the RCC doctrine. The Scriptures has shown grave error in the idea of lineage of rulership, Solomon was certainly not as faithful as his father, nor Hezekiah as Josiah. Yet even though we had some wayward judges, they all completed their missions. Difference? Judges didn't have lineage, God specifically chose them. That is how the callings are to be given, not by vote. Otherwise, as history of the RCC had shown, you will have bad leadership pushing corrupt doctrines. The Protestant sects aren't exactly without guilt here, either.

: LexKnight  Fri Jan 22, 2016 - 14:58:54
Kensington showed a good flaw in the RCC doctrine. The Scriptures has shown grave error in the idea of lineage of rulership, Solomon was certainly not as faithful as his father, nor Hezekiah as Josiah. Yet even though we had some wayward judges, they all completed their missions. Difference? Judges didn't have lineage, God specifically chose them. That is how the callings are to be given, not by vote. Otherwise, as history of the RCC had shown, you will have bad leadership pushing corrupt doctrines. The Protestant sects aren't exactly without guilt here, either.

I wouldn't expect the Protestant sects to be without guilt as they are merely offshoots of Catholicism. There exists a 'sect' not related at all to either of these that very few acknowledge; the body of believers who do not associate with either Catholicism or Protestantism.

: His Kid  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 16:02:43

: Catholica  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 15:53:15

: His Kid  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 15:44:18
Catholica


Your source does not even believe in extraterrestrials, Many Catholics do, as does those working on the project trying to find them from Mt. Graham by instruction of the Vatican. What in the heck do you think they are doing up there, anyway? lol

Studying the stars, as they have since the day a Catholic invented the telescope.  The laughable thing is that you think they are looking for aliens.  How backwards.

There is so much activity in the skies that cannot be explained. There is UFO activity. An abundance. The Vatican is quite interested in it. You obviously don't get it now, but you will. When you see it all play out, you will remember this conversation.

Maybe you should have a chat with your pal Thadeous. He believes in extraterrestrials and has no problem accepting the fact that the Vatican is trying to make contact.

However, it hardly matters. I just gave the warning. You can laugh all you like. I don't mind. It is good news that you don't believe in aliens. I don't either. They are demons, not aliens. Maybe when the Vatican announces they have made contact, you will finally walk away from that religion.

Show me evidence that the Vatican is interested in "UFO activity".

: Catholica  Fri Jan 22, 2016 - 15:36:16

: His Kid  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 16:02:43

: Catholica  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 15:53:15

: His Kid  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 15:44:18
Catholica


Your source does not even believe in extraterrestrials, Many Catholics do, as does those working on the project trying to find them from Mt. Graham by instruction of the Vatican. What in the heck do you think they are doing up there, anyway? lol

Studying the stars, as they have since the day a Catholic invented the telescope.  The laughable thing is that you think they are looking for aliens.  How backwards.

There is so much activity in the skies that cannot be explained. There is UFO activity. An abundance. The Vatican is quite interested in it. You obviously don't get it now, but you will. When you see it all play out, you will remember this conversation.

Maybe you should have a chat with your pal Thadeous. He believes in extraterrestrials and has no problem accepting the fact that the Vatican is trying to make contact.

However, it hardly matters. I just gave the warning. You can laugh all you like. I don't mind. It is good news that you don't believe in aliens. I don't either. They are demons, not aliens. Maybe when the Vatican announces they have made contact, you will finally walk away from that religion.

Show me evidence that the Vatican is interested in "UFO activity".

No thanks. I'm not going to waste my time.

: His Kid  Fri Jan 22, 2016 - 15:48:01

: Catholica  Fri Jan 22, 2016 - 15:36:16

: His Kid  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 16:02:43

: Catholica  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 15:53:15

: His Kid  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 15:44:18
Catholica


Your source does not even believe in extraterrestrials, Many Catholics do, as does those working on the project trying to find them from Mt. Graham by instruction of the Vatican. What in the heck do you think they are doing up there, anyway? lol

Studying the stars, as they have since the day a Catholic invented the telescope.  The laughable thing is that you think they are looking for aliens.  How backwards.

There is so much activity in the skies that cannot be explained. There is UFO activity. An abundance. The Vatican is quite interested in it. You obviously don't get it now, but you will. When you see it all play out, you will remember this conversation.

Maybe you should have a chat with your pal Thadeous. He believes in extraterrestrials and has no problem accepting the fact that the Vatican is trying to make contact.

However, it hardly matters. I just gave the warning. You can laugh all you like. I don't mind. It is good news that you don't believe in aliens. I don't either. They are demons, not aliens. Maybe when the Vatican announces they have made contact, you will finally walk away from that religion.

Show me evidence that the Vatican is interested in "UFO activity".

No thanks. I'm not going to waste my time.

That's because there is none and you don't want to appear the fool.

: His Kid  Fri Jan 22, 2016 - 15:48:01

: Catholica  Fri Jan 22, 2016 - 15:36:16

: His Kid  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 16:02:43

: Catholica  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 15:53:15

: His Kid  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 15:44:18
Catholica


Your source does not even believe in extraterrestrials, Many Catholics do, as does those working on the project trying to find them from Mt. Graham by instruction of the Vatican. What in the heck do you think they are doing up there, anyway? lol

Studying the stars, as they have since the day a Catholic invented the telescope.  The laughable thing is that you think they are looking for aliens.  How backwards.

There is so much activity in the skies that cannot be explained. There is UFO activity. An abundance. The Vatican is quite interested in it. You obviously don't get it now, but you will. When you see it all play out, you will remember this conversation.

Maybe you should have a chat with your pal Thadeous. He believes in extraterrestrials and has no problem accepting the fact that the Vatican is trying to make contact.

However, it hardly matters. I just gave the warning. You can laugh all you like. I don't mind. It is good news that you don't believe in aliens. I don't either. They are demons, not aliens. Maybe when the Vatican announces they have made contact, you will finally walk away from that religion.

Show me evidence that the Vatican is interested in "UFO activity".

No thanks. I'm not going to waste my time.

Mind forum rule 1.2:

1.2 You will not directly call another member or his or her religious organization a "cult", "heretic," "demonic" or "satanic" if it holds beliefs consistent with orthodox Christianity as set forth in Rule 6. You may discuss doctrines, teachings, practices or writings of other religious organizations as long as evidence (including Scripture) is provided.

: Catholica  Fri Jan 22, 2016 - 15:50:51

: His Kid  Fri Jan 22, 2016 - 15:48:01

: Catholica  Fri Jan 22, 2016 - 15:36:16

: His Kid  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 16:02:43

: Catholica  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 15:53:15

: His Kid  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 15:44:18
Catholica


Your source does not even believe in extraterrestrials, Many Catholics do, as does those working on the project trying to find them from Mt. Graham by instruction of the Vatican. What in the heck do you think they are doing up there, anyway? lol

Studying the stars, as they have since the day a Catholic invented the telescope.  The laughable thing is that you think they are looking for aliens.  How backwards.

There is so much activity in the skies that cannot be explained. There is UFO activity. An abundance. The Vatican is quite interested in it. You obviously don't get it now, but you will. When you see it all play out, you will remember this conversation.

Maybe you should have a chat with your pal Thadeous. He believes in extraterrestrials and has no problem accepting the fact that the Vatican is trying to make contact.

However, it hardly matters. I just gave the warning. You can laugh all you like. I don't mind. It is good news that you don't believe in aliens. I don't either. They are demons, not aliens. Maybe when the Vatican announces they have made contact, you will finally walk away from that religion.

Show me evidence that the Vatican is interested in "UFO activity".

No thanks. I'm not going to waste my time.

Mind forum rule 1.2:

1.2 You will not directly call another member or his or her religious organization a "cult", "heretic," "demonic" or "satanic" if it holds beliefs consistent with orthodox Christianity as set forth in Rule 6. You may discuss doctrines, teachings, practices or writings of other religious organizations as long as evidence (including Scripture) is provided.

I edited my post about demons casting out demons.

: Catholica  Fri Jan 22, 2016 - 15:49:04

: His Kid  Fri Jan 22, 2016 - 15:48:01

: Catholica  Fri Jan 22, 2016 - 15:36:16

: His Kid  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 16:02:43

: Catholica  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 15:53:15

: His Kid  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 15:44:18
Catholica


Your source does not even believe in extraterrestrials, Many Catholics do, as does those working on the project trying to find them from Mt. Graham by instruction of the Vatican. What in the heck do you think they are doing up there, anyway? lol

Studying the stars, as they have since the day a Catholic invented the telescope.  The laughable thing is that you think they are looking for aliens.  How backwards.

There is so much activity in the skies that cannot be explained. There is UFO activity. An abundance. The Vatican is quite interested in it. You obviously don't get it now, but you will. When you see it all play out, you will remember this conversation.

Maybe you should have a chat with your pal Thadeous. He believes in extraterrestrials and has no problem accepting the fact that the Vatican is trying to make contact.

However, it hardly matters. I just gave the warning. You can laugh all you like. I don't mind. It is good news that you don't believe in aliens. I don't either. They are demons, not aliens. Maybe when the Vatican announces they have made contact, you will finally walk away from that religion.

Show me evidence that the Vatican is interested in "UFO activity".

No thanks. I'm not going to waste my time.

That's because there is none and you don't want to appear the fool.

If that makes you feel better, sure.

: His Kid  Fri Jan 22, 2016 - 15:57:00

: Catholica  Fri Jan 22, 2016 - 15:49:04

: His Kid  Fri Jan 22, 2016 - 15:48:01

: Catholica  Fri Jan 22, 2016 - 15:36:16

: His Kid  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 16:02:43

: Catholica  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 15:53:15

: His Kid  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 15:44:18
Catholica


Your source does not even believe in extraterrestrials, Many Catholics do, as does those working on the project trying to find them from Mt. Graham by instruction of the Vatican. What in the heck do you think they are doing up there, anyway? lol

Studying the stars, as they have since the day a Catholic invented the telescope.  The laughable thing is that you think they are looking for aliens.  How backwards.

There is so much activity in the skies that cannot be explained. There is UFO activity. An abundance. The Vatican is quite interested in it. You obviously don't get it now, but you will. When you see it all play out, you will remember this conversation.

Maybe you should have a chat with your pal Thadeous. He believes in extraterrestrials and has no problem accepting the fact that the Vatican is trying to make contact.

However, it hardly matters. I just gave the warning. You can laugh all you like. I don't mind. It is good news that you don't believe in aliens. I don't either. They are demons, not aliens. Maybe when the Vatican announces they have made contact, you will finally walk away from that religion.

Show me evidence that the Vatican is interested in "UFO activity".

No thanks. I'm not going to waste my time.

That's because there is none and you don't want to appear the fool.

If that makes you feel better, sure.

That's pretty much what I thought.

 ::stormtrooper::

This discussion has just gone into crazy territory.

: Texas Conservative  Fri Jan 22, 2016 - 16:34:56
::stormtrooper::

This discussion has just gone into crazy territory.

Its been there for three pages now.  Strike that, five.

: LexKnight  Fri Jan 22, 2016 - 14:58:54
Kensington showed a good flaw in the RCC doctrine. The Scriptures has shown grave error in the idea of lineage of rulership, Solomon was certainly not as faithful as his father, nor Hezekiah as Josiah. Yet even though we had some wayward judges, they all completed their missions. Difference? Judges didn't have lineage, God specifically chose them. That is how the callings are to be given, not by vote. Otherwise, as history of the RCC had shown, you will have bad leadership pushing corrupt doctrines. The Protestant sects aren't exactly without guilt here, either.

Yet at the end of judges, the people of Israel were just as wanderingly lost as they started.

Judges 21:25 "In those days Israel had no king; all the people did whatever seemed right in their own eyes."

To me, that describes the state of the sola scriptura churches.

: Catholica  Fri Jan 22, 2016 - 16:27:25

: His Kid  Fri Jan 22, 2016 - 15:57:00

: Catholica  Fri Jan 22, 2016 - 15:49:04

: His Kid  Fri Jan 22, 2016 - 15:48:01

: Catholica  Fri Jan 22, 2016 - 15:36:16

: His Kid  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 16:02:43

: Catholica  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 15:53:15

: His Kid  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 15:44:18
Catholica


Your source does not even believe in extraterrestrials, Many Catholics do, as does those working on the project trying to find them from Mt. Graham by instruction of the Vatican. What in the heck do you think they are doing up there, anyway? lol

Studying the stars, as they have since the day a Catholic invented the telescope.  The laughable thing is that you think they are looking for aliens.  How backwards.

There is so much activity in the skies that cannot be explained. There is UFO activity. An abundance. The Vatican is quite interested in it. You obviously don't get it now, but you will. When you see it all play out, you will remember this conversation.

Maybe you should have a chat with your pal Thadeous. He believes in extraterrestrials and has no problem accepting the fact that the Vatican is trying to make contact.

However, it hardly matters. I just gave the warning. You can laugh all you like. I don't mind. It is good news that you don't believe in aliens. I don't either. They are demons, not aliens. Maybe when the Vatican announces they have made contact, you will finally walk away from that religion.

Show me evidence that the Vatican is interested in "UFO activity".

No thanks. I'm not going to waste my time.

That's because there is none and you don't want to appear the fool.

If that makes you feel better, sure.

That's pretty much what I thought.

Well of course you did. I've just warned you, so when it happens, you will not be surprised. From the sound of it,  you will not believe the Great Deception because you don't believe the Vatican is interested in life beyond this planet and you don't believe in aliens. I suggest you hold fast to that belief.

: His Kid  Fri Jan 22, 2016 - 17:04:22

: Catholica  Fri Jan 22, 2016 - 16:27:25

: His Kid  Fri Jan 22, 2016 - 15:57:00

: Catholica  Fri Jan 22, 2016 - 15:49:04

: His Kid  Fri Jan 22, 2016 - 15:48:01

: Catholica  Fri Jan 22, 2016 - 15:36:16

: His Kid  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 16:02:43

: Catholica  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 15:53:15

: His Kid  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 15:44:18
Catholica


Your source does not even believe in extraterrestrials, Many Catholics do, as does those working on the project trying to find them from Mt. Graham by instruction of the Vatican. What in the heck do you think they are doing up there, anyway? lol

Studying the stars, as they have since the day a Catholic invented the telescope.  The laughable thing is that you think they are looking for aliens.  How backwards.

There is so much activity in the skies that cannot be explained. There is UFO activity. An abundance. The Vatican is quite interested in it. You obviously don't get it now, but you will. When you see it all play out, you will remember this conversation.

Maybe you should have a chat with your pal Thadeous. He believes in extraterrestrials and has no problem accepting the fact that the Vatican is trying to make contact.

However, it hardly matters. I just gave the warning. You can laugh all you like. I don't mind. It is good news that you don't believe in aliens. I don't either. They are demons, not aliens. Maybe when the Vatican announces they have made contact, you will finally walk away from that religion.

Show me evidence that the Vatican is interested in "UFO activity".

No thanks. I'm not going to waste my time.

That's because there is none and you don't want to appear the fool.

If that makes you feel better, sure.

That's pretty much what I thought.

Well of course you did. I've just warned you, so when it happens, you will not be surprised. From the sound of it,  you will not believe the Great Deception because you don't believe the Vatican is interested in life beyond this planet and you don't believe in aliens. I suggest you hold fast to that belief.

Why would I believe it?  It sounds like crazy talk and you have provided zero evidence for it.

: Catholica  Fri Jan 22, 2016 - 17:07:15

: His Kid  Fri Jan 22, 2016 - 17:04:22

: Catholica  Fri Jan 22, 2016 - 16:27:25

: His Kid  Fri Jan 22, 2016 - 15:57:00

: Catholica  Fri Jan 22, 2016 - 15:49:04

: His Kid  Fri Jan 22, 2016 - 15:48:01

: Catholica  Fri Jan 22, 2016 - 15:36:16

: His Kid  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 16:02:43

: Catholica  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 15:53:15

: His Kid  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 15:44:18
Catholica


Your source does not even believe in extraterrestrials, Many Catholics do, as does those working on the project trying to find them from Mt. Graham by instruction of the Vatican. What in the heck do you think they are doing up there, anyway? lol

Studying the stars, as they have since the day a Catholic invented the telescope.  The laughable thing is that you think they are looking for aliens.  How backwards.

There is so much activity in the skies that cannot be explained. There is UFO activity. An abundance. The Vatican is quite interested in it. You obviously don't get it now, but you will. When you see it all play out, you will remember this conversation.

Maybe you should have a chat with your pal Thadeous. He believes in extraterrestrials and has no problem accepting the fact that the Vatican is trying to make contact.

However, it hardly matters. I just gave the warning. You can laugh all you like. I don't mind. It is good news that you don't believe in aliens. I don't either. They are demons, not aliens. Maybe when the Vatican announces they have made contact, you will finally walk away from that religion.

Show me evidence that the Vatican is interested in "UFO activity".

No thanks. I'm not going to waste my time.

That's because there is none and you don't want to appear the fool.

If that makes you feel better, sure.

That's pretty much what I thought.

Well of course you did. I've just warned you, so when it happens, you will not be surprised. From the sound of it,  you will not believe the Great Deception because you don't believe the Vatican is interested in life beyond this planet and you don't believe in aliens. I suggest you hold fast to that belief.

Why would I believe it?  It sounds like crazy talk and you have provided zero evidence for it.

I absolutely understand. When it finally happens, you will have an aha moment, hopefully.

: mclees8  Fri Jan 22, 2016 - 10:33:29

: Hexalpa  Fri Jan 22, 2016 - 03:36:17

: AVZ  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 23:38:21

: kensington  Wed Jan 20, 2016 - 21:18:12
What doesn't seem probable to me is that every Dutch person was Catholic. That doesn't even make sense.


They weren't.  I said the telescope was invented in the early 1600's and by that time the Dutch Protestant split had started. It's a could be or not situation as to the inventor being Catholic as you stated.

This may clarify Dutch religion history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Dutch_religion

What I read is that a Dutch guy patented the telescope. Doesn't mean he invented it.
But even so, if the argument holds that something is right because a Catholic did it...then who invented the mafia?
Franco was a Catholic, so were Hitler, Mussolini, Petain and Ferdinand Marcos.
Ever heard about drug trade and drug murders? What denomination are these people in South America again?

If Catholica's argument is valid then the RCC is a criminal organisation.

Hitler was going down the path to wipe out the Mafia for good and that's a fact and another fact is that the USA helped support the Mafia.

Hitler was baptised a RC, but he sure was no supporter of the RCC.

Hitler was not on about the Holy Ghost at all and nor were all the other people you just mentioned above, all of them were worldly in their ambition.

The RCC calls it's self a Church of Saints and sinners, maybe if they kicked out the sinners all would be ok, but they will not kick out the sinners. ::lookaround::

Kicked out the sinners   ???

well that's why the  ::lookaround::
I think the Pope from JP2 on has been to lenient on the sinners, not coming down hard enough on the grave sinners, letting all the child molesters and sodomites get out of hand within his Church.
There must be extreme pressure and cunning being forced against the Popes from all the priest and their flocks to support all the sickness of the cunning devils that work to undermine Christ.

From what I know of the RCC the difference between the top in depth educated RC people and the ones that are just dilettantes as are a lot of priest and their flock are, is like chalk and cheese sadly from my experience, the priest are always huffing and puffing against the Popes and are pushing a worldly barrow of their own works and the protestants pick up on such people who are worshiping Idols and such nonsense.

Now we have Nations that are head over heals in love with Sodomite's, Greed and Corruption absolutely and we have so called Christian people saying that Sin is just sin, fact is there are levels of Sin, some are tolerated because that's understandable, but some sins in fact are never to be tolerated at all.

We can never deal totally to stamp out dealing with Sin, but should never let it just fester, because that is just satanic..   

: Catholica  Fri Jan 22, 2016 - 17:07:15

: His Kid  Fri Jan 22, 2016 - 17:04:22
Well of course you did. I've just warned you, so when it happens, you will not be surprised. From the sound of it,  you will not believe the Great Deception because you don't believe the Vatican is interested in life beyond this planet and you don't believe in aliens. I suggest you hold fast to that belief.

Why would I believe it?  It sounds like crazy talk and you have provided zero evidence for it.

see what you can find in a book about it by Tom Horn.  I think that is the guy's name.
the Vatican is trying to reach / discover another 'realm' / universe.

and there's something about a 'track' ? that goes around the border of France.  I don't remember if it's totally around it - or even if it's above ground or underground. I don't remember what the track is for - maybe speed and force  to break thru? who knows why the Vatican thinks there's  a need for this or where they came up with the 'how' to it.  Are they trying to find another kingdom to rule?  find heaven and sneak up on God?
They've got to be spending a blooming mega fortune on this - yet don't seem to have enough to settle some law suits filed against them.

Is this it?  The author, the book, the premise..

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0984825630/?tag=googhydr-20&hvadid=61124379683&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=997520257284050771&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_9s15mwcflr_b (http://www.amazon.com/dp/0984825630/?tag=googhydr-20&hvadid=61124379683&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=997520257284050771&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_9s15mwcflr_b)

: kensington  Sat Jan 23, 2016 - 15:37:51
Is this it?  The author, the book, the premise..

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0984825630/?tag=googhydr-20&hvadid=61124379683&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=997520257284050771&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_9s15mwcflr_b (http://www.amazon.com/dp/0984825630/?tag=googhydr-20&hvadid=61124379683&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=997520257284050771&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_9s15mwcflr_b)

That is quite a good resource. There was a ton of research that went into it.

: kensington  Sat Jan 23, 2016 - 15:37:51
Is this it?  The author, the book, the premise..

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0984825630/?tag=googhydr-20&hvadid=61124379683&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=997520257284050771&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_9s15mwcflr_b (http://www.amazon.com/dp/0984825630/?tag=googhydr-20&hvadid=61124379683&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=997520257284050771&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_9s15mwcflr_b)

yes, that looks like it. I wasn't sure if his name  was Tom and forgot he did have a partner in it.   He is  also the one who wrote a book about Francis being the last pope, I think.

I listened to part of what they had to say on a tv program and found it fascinating.   it drew my interest because of mount graham in Tucson.

eta -  how weird... not long after posting my reply, I watched a show called 'prophecy watchers' - thought it might be about Israel ... but no, they had Tom Horn on! and someone else - Joe Ardis.
anyway, he's talking about our ability now to change human make up, modifying our genetics, the ability to change a species.

I've already established that The authors of that book are charlatans. Name one other source that suggests the same.

: Catholica  Sun Jan 24, 2016 - 06:39:34
I've already established that The authors of that book are charlatans. Name one other source that suggests the same.

You established those awesome Christian men as charlatans? That's funny.

: skeeter  Sun Jan 24, 2016 - 02:53:17

: kensington  Sat Jan 23, 2016 - 15:37:51
Is this it?  The author, the book, the premise..

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0984825630/?tag=googhydr-20&hvadid=61124379683&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=997520257284050771&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_9s15mwcflr_b (http://www.amazon.com/dp/0984825630/?tag=googhydr-20&hvadid=61124379683&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=997520257284050771&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_9s15mwcflr_b)

yes, that looks like it. I wasn't sure if his name  was Tom and forgot he did have a partner in it.   He is  also the one who wrote a book about Francis being the last pope, I think.

I listened to part of what they had to say on a tv program and found it fascinating.   it drew my interest because of mount graham in Tucson.

eta -  how weird... not long after posting my reply, I watched a show called 'prophecy watchers' - thought it might be about Israel ... but no, they had Tom Horn on! and someone else - Joe Ardis.
anyway, he's talking about our ability now to change human make up, modifying our genetics, the ability to change a species.

It's quite true. I worked for a biotech company in San Diego that is doing just that experimentally. It's quite alarming what these men are experimenting with and succeeding.

: Catholica  Sun Jan 24, 2016 - 06:39:34
I've already established that The authors of that book are charlatans. Name one other source that suggests the same.

I'm sure you did post something about it...that it established them to be charlatans is another topic.

many have posted the same about the pope etc.  You post against that too.

: His Kid  Sun Jan 24, 2016 - 09:28:38

: Catholica  Sun Jan 24, 2016 - 06:39:34
I've already established that The authors of that book are charlatans. Name one other source that suggests the same.

You established those awesome Christian men as charlatans? That's funny.

That you think its funny is fairly disturbing. 

One of the authors contacted the director at the VATT, took his replies to those emails and completely twisted and distorted what he wrote, and published that into the book.

Here is the link that you must not have read.

http://brotherguy.livejournal.com/74394.html (http://brotherguy.livejournal.com/74394.html)

And the link to Tom Horn et. al established here:

http://barthsnotes.com/2013/05/01/vatican-astronomer-claims-thomas-horn-twisted-misquoted-his-words-invented-utter-falsehoods/ (http://barthsnotes.com/2013/05/01/vatican-astronomer-claims-thomas-horn-twisted-misquoted-his-words-invented-utter-falsehoods/)

: Catholica  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 11:28:53

: His Kid  Sun Jan 24, 2016 - 09:28:38

: Catholica  Sun Jan 24, 2016 - 06:39:34
I've already established that The authors of that book are charlatans. Name one other source that suggests the same.

You established those awesome Christian men as charlatans? That's funny.

That you think its funny is fairly disturbing. 

One of the authors contacted the director at the VATT, took his replies to those emails and completely twisted and distorted what he wrote, and published that into the book.

Here is the link that you must not have read.

http://brotherguy.livejournal.com/74394.html (http://brotherguy.livejournal.com/74394.html)

And the link to Tom Horn et. al established here:

http://barthsnotes.com/2013/05/01/vatican-astronomer-claims-thomas-horn-twisted-misquoted-his-words-invented-utter-falsehoods/ (http://barthsnotes.com/2013/05/01/vatican-astronomer-claims-thomas-horn-twisted-misquoted-his-words-invented-utter-falsehoods/)

I think it's funny that you think you have established these men of God as charlatans. There was no twisting of words or falsehoods. It is an utter lack of comprehension of what the book is about and how it is presented. Oy vey.

: His Kid  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 11:37:05

: Catholica  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 11:28:53

: His Kid  Sun Jan 24, 2016 - 09:28:38

: Catholica  Sun Jan 24, 2016 - 06:39:34
I've already established that The authors of that book are charlatans. Name one other source that suggests the same.

You established those awesome Christian men as charlatans? That's funny.

That you think its funny is fairly disturbing. 

One of the authors contacted the director at the VATT, took his replies to those emails and completely twisted and distorted what he wrote, and published that into the book.

Here is the link that you must not have read.

http://brotherguy.livejournal.com/74394.html (http://brotherguy.livejournal.com/74394.html)

And the link to Tom Horn et. al established here:

http://barthsnotes.com/2013/05/01/vatican-astronomer-claims-thomas-horn-twisted-misquoted-his-words-invented-utter-falsehoods/ (http://barthsnotes.com/2013/05/01/vatican-astronomer-claims-thomas-horn-twisted-misquoted-his-words-invented-utter-falsehoods/)

I think it's funny that you think you have established these men of God as charlatans. There was no twisting of words or falsehoods. It is an utter lack of comprehension of what the book is about and how it is presented. Oy vey.

Well here are some other "established men of God" with something to say about Tom Horn:

http://fanaticforjesus.blogspot.com/2012/09/tom-horn-leading-blind-gullible.html (http://fanaticforjesus.blogspot.com/2012/09/tom-horn-leading-blind-gullible.html)

http://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpress/apollyon-is-not-rising-in-2012-you-are-being-hornswoggled.html (http://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpress/apollyon-is-not-rising-in-2012-you-are-being-hornswoggled.html)

http://www.examiner.com/article/tom-horn-profiting-from-false-prophecy (http://www.examiner.com/article/tom-horn-profiting-from-false-prophecy)

: Catholica  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 13:01:09

: His Kid  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 11:37:05

: Catholica  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 11:28:53

: His Kid  Sun Jan 24, 2016 - 09:28:38

: Catholica  Sun Jan 24, 2016 - 06:39:34
I've already established that The authors of that book are charlatans. Name one other source that suggests the same.

You established those awesome Christian men as charlatans? That's funny.

That you think its funny is fairly disturbing. 

One of the authors contacted the director at the VATT, took his replies to those emails and completely twisted and distorted what he wrote, and published that into the book.

Here is the link that you must not have read.

http://brotherguy.livejournal.com/74394.html (http://brotherguy.livejournal.com/74394.html)

And the link to Tom Horn et. al established here:

http://barthsnotes.com/2013/05/01/vatican-astronomer-claims-thomas-horn-twisted-misquoted-his-words-invented-utter-falsehoods/ (http://barthsnotes.com/2013/05/01/vatican-astronomer-claims-thomas-horn-twisted-misquoted-his-words-invented-utter-falsehoods/)

I think it's funny that you think you have established these men of God as charlatans. There was no twisting of words or falsehoods. It is an utter lack of comprehension of what the book is about and how it is presented. Oy vey.

Well here are some other "established men of God" with something to say about Tom Horn:

http://fanaticforjesus.blogspot.com/2012/09/tom-horn-leading-blind-gullible.html (http://fanaticforjesus.blogspot.com/2012/09/tom-horn-leading-blind-gullible.html)

http://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpress/apollyon-is-not-rising-in-2012-you-are-being-hornswoggled.html (http://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpress/apollyon-is-not-rising-in-2012-you-are-being-hornswoggled.html)

http://www.examiner.com/article/tom-horn-profiting-from-false-prophecy (http://www.examiner.com/article/tom-horn-profiting-from-false-prophecy)

Sure, whatever your silly little blogs say. Just remember, when the Vatican claims to have found intelligent life, it's time to leave.

Just to be clear, Tom did not ever asset that Jesus was a hybrid human. He was simply making a wild guess of what the Vatican might come up with when they claim to have made contact with other intelligent life. They will have a problem with the actual Jesus at that time because it will open up a huge can of worms. They will come up with some elaborate lie that millions of people will believe, that is for sure. They are very good at that.

: His Kid  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 13:58:31

: Catholica  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 13:01:09

: His Kid  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 11:37:05

: Catholica  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 11:28:53

: His Kid  Sun Jan 24, 2016 - 09:28:38

: Catholica  Sun Jan 24, 2016 - 06:39:34
I've already established that The authors of that book are charlatans. Name one other source that suggests the same.

You established those awesome Christian men as charlatans? That's funny.

That you think its funny is fairly disturbing. 

One of the authors contacted the director at the VATT, took his replies to those emails and completely twisted and distorted what he wrote, and published that into the book.

Here is the link that you must not have read.

http://brotherguy.livejournal.com/74394.html (http://brotherguy.livejournal.com/74394.html)

And the link to Tom Horn et. al established here:

http://barthsnotes.com/2013/05/01/vatican-astronomer-claims-thomas-horn-twisted-misquoted-his-words-invented-utter-falsehoods/ (http://barthsnotes.com/2013/05/01/vatican-astronomer-claims-thomas-horn-twisted-misquoted-his-words-invented-utter-falsehoods/)

I think it's funny that you think you have established these men of God as charlatans. There was no twisting of words or falsehoods. It is an utter lack of comprehension of what the book is about and how it is presented. Oy vey.

Well here are some other "established men of God" with something to say about Tom Horn:

http://fanaticforjesus.blogspot.com/2012/09/tom-horn-leading-blind-gullible.html (http://fanaticforjesus.blogspot.com/2012/09/tom-horn-leading-blind-gullible.html)

http://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpress/apollyon-is-not-rising-in-2012-you-are-being-hornswoggled.html (http://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpress/apollyon-is-not-rising-in-2012-you-are-being-hornswoggled.html)

http://www.examiner.com/article/tom-horn-profiting-from-false-prophecy (http://www.examiner.com/article/tom-horn-profiting-from-false-prophecy)

Sure, whatever your silly little blogs say. Just remember, when the Vatican claims to have found intelligent life, it's time to leave.

Just to be clear, Tom did not ever asset that Jesus was a hybrid human. He was simply making a wild guess of what the Vatican might come up with when they claim to have made contact with other intelligent life. They will have a problem with the actual Jesus at that time because it will open up a huge can of worms. They will come up with some elaborate lie that millions of people will believe, that is for sure. They are very good at that.

Sorry, but established dogma make that impossible.  Tom not only makes stuff up, but he has little understanding of how the Catholic Church operates with regard to established dogma.

The nature of Jesus Christ has been solidly established in dogma as being both God (divine) and man.  That goes back to the time when the Church defined the dogma of the hypostatic union in 431.  No future "revelation" can change that fact, and it is beyond naive to believe otherwise.  Once a dogma is established, no person on Earth can change it, not even the Pope nor the Magisterium.

I'll leave you to your knavish dollar chasers though, you seem happy enough believing silly things.

: Catholica  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 14:14:51

: His Kid  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 13:58:31

: Catholica  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 13:01:09

: His Kid  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 11:37:05

: Catholica  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 11:28:53

: His Kid  Sun Jan 24, 2016 - 09:28:38

: Catholica  Sun Jan 24, 2016 - 06:39:34
I've already established that The authors of that book are charlatans. Name one other source that suggests the same.

You established those awesome Christian men as charlatans? That's funny.

That you think its funny is fairly disturbing. 

One of the authors contacted the director at the VATT, took his replies to those emails and completely twisted and distorted what he wrote, and published that into the book.

Here is the link that you must not have read.

http://brotherguy.livejournal.com/74394.html (http://brotherguy.livejournal.com/74394.html)

And the link to Tom Horn et. al established here:

http://barthsnotes.com/2013/05/01/vatican-astronomer-claims-thomas-horn-twisted-misquoted-his-words-invented-utter-falsehoods/ (http://barthsnotes.com/2013/05/01/vatican-astronomer-claims-thomas-horn-twisted-misquoted-his-words-invented-utter-falsehoods/)

I think it's funny that you think you have established these men of God as charlatans. There was no twisting of words or falsehoods. It is an utter lack of comprehension of what the book is about and how it is presented. Oy vey.

Well here are some other "established men of God" with something to say about Tom Horn:

http://fanaticforjesus.blogspot.com/2012/09/tom-horn-leading-blind-gullible.html (http://fanaticforjesus.blogspot.com/2012/09/tom-horn-leading-blind-gullible.html)

http://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpress/apollyon-is-not-rising-in-2012-you-are-being-hornswoggled.html (http://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpress/apollyon-is-not-rising-in-2012-you-are-being-hornswoggled.html)

http://www.examiner.com/article/tom-horn-profiting-from-false-prophecy (http://www.examiner.com/article/tom-horn-profiting-from-false-prophecy)

Sure, whatever your silly little blogs say. Just remember, when the Vatican claims to have found intelligent life, it's time to leave.

Just to be clear, Tom did not ever asset that Jesus was a hybrid human. He was simply making a wild guess of what the Vatican might come up with when they claim to have made contact with other intelligent life. They will have a problem with the actual Jesus at that time because it will open up a huge can of worms. They will come up with some elaborate lie that millions of people will believe, that is for sure. They are very good at that.

Sorry, but established dogma make that impossible.  Tom not only makes stuff up, but he has little understanding of how the Catholic Church operates with regard to established dogma.

The nature of Jesus Christ has been solidly established in dogma as being both God (divine) and man.  That goes back to the time when the Church defined the dogma of the hypostatic union in 431.  No future "revelation" can change that fact, and it is beyond naive to believe otherwise.  Once a dogma is established, no person on Earth can change it, not even the Pope nor the Magisterium.

I'll leave you to your knavish dollar chasers though, you seem happy enough believing silly things.

I don't know what elaborate lie they will come up with. All I know is that Jesus will be quite a problem for the Vatican at that point, and they are very successful at deceiving people, so it won't be a problem for them, whatever lie they tell.

: Catholica  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 14:14:51

: His Kid  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 13:58:31

: Catholica  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 13:01:09

: His Kid  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 11:37:05

: Catholica  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 11:28:53

: His Kid  Sun Jan 24, 2016 - 09:28:38

: Catholica  Sun Jan 24, 2016 - 06:39:34
I've already established that The authors of that book are charlatans. Name one other source that suggests the same.

You established those awesome Christian men as charlatans? That's funny.

That you think its funny is fairly disturbing. 

One of the authors contacted the director at the VATT, took his replies to those emails and completely twisted and distorted what he wrote, and published that into the book.

Here is the link that you must not have read.

http://brotherguy.livejournal.com/74394.html (http://brotherguy.livejournal.com/74394.html)

And the link to Tom Horn et. al established here:

http://barthsnotes.com/2013/05/01/vatican-astronomer-claims-thomas-horn-twisted-misquoted-his-words-invented-utter-falsehoods/ (http://barthsnotes.com/2013/05/01/vatican-astronomer-claims-thomas-horn-twisted-misquoted-his-words-invented-utter-falsehoods/)

I think it's funny that you think you have established these men of God as charlatans. There was no twisting of words or falsehoods. It is an utter lack of comprehension of what the book is about and how it is presented. Oy vey.

Well here are some other "established men of God" with something to say about Tom Horn:

http://fanaticforjesus.blogspot.com/2012/09/tom-horn-leading-blind-gullible.html (http://fanaticforjesus.blogspot.com/2012/09/tom-horn-leading-blind-gullible.html)

http://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpress/apollyon-is-not-rising-in-2012-you-are-being-hornswoggled.html (http://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpress/apollyon-is-not-rising-in-2012-you-are-being-hornswoggled.html)

http://www.examiner.com/article/tom-horn-profiting-from-false-prophecy (http://www.examiner.com/article/tom-horn-profiting-from-false-prophecy)

Sure, whatever your silly little blogs say. Just remember, when the Vatican claims to have found intelligent life, it's time to leave.

Just to be clear, Tom did not ever asset that Jesus was a hybrid human. He was simply making a wild guess of what the Vatican might come up with when they claim to have made contact with other intelligent life. They will have a problem with the actual Jesus at that time because it will open up a huge can of worms. They will come up with some elaborate lie that millions of people will believe, that is for sure. They are very good at that.

Sorry, but established dogma make that impossible.  Tom not only makes stuff up, but he has little understanding of how the Catholic Church operates with regard to established dogma.

The nature of Jesus Christ has been solidly established in dogma as being both God (divine) and man.  That goes back to the time when the Church defined the dogma of the hypostatic union in 431.  No future "revelation" can change that fact, and it is beyond naive to believe otherwise.  Once a dogma is established, no person on Earth can change it, not even the Pope nor the Magisterium.

I'll leave you to your knavish dollar chasers though, you seem happy enough believing silly things.

You are totally correct dear Catholica, just some have a total hatred that blinds them to truly look into the facts that the Catholic Church claims. 

: Hexalpa  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 22:06:57

: Catholica  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 14:14:51

: His Kid  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 13:58:31

: Catholica  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 13:01:09

: His Kid  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 11:37:05

: Catholica  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 11:28:53

: His Kid  Sun Jan 24, 2016 - 09:28:38

: Catholica  Sun Jan 24, 2016 - 06:39:34
I've already established that The authors of that book are charlatans. Name one other source that suggests the same.

You established those awesome Christian men as charlatans? That's funny.

That you think its funny is fairly disturbing. 

One of the authors contacted the director at the VATT, took his replies to those emails and completely twisted and distorted what he wrote, and published that into the book.

Here is the link that you must not have read.

http://brotherguy.livejournal.com/74394.html (http://brotherguy.livejournal.com/74394.html)

And the link to Tom Horn et. al established here:

http://barthsnotes.com/2013/05/01/vatican-astronomer-claims-thomas-horn-twisted-misquoted-his-words-invented-utter-falsehoods/ (http://barthsnotes.com/2013/05/01/vatican-astronomer-claims-thomas-horn-twisted-misquoted-his-words-invented-utter-falsehoods/)

I think it's funny that you think you have established these men of God as charlatans. There was no twisting of words or falsehoods. It is an utter lack of comprehension of what the book is about and how it is presented. Oy vey.

Well here are some other "established men of God" with something to say about Tom Horn:

http://fanaticforjesus.blogspot.com/2012/09/tom-horn-leading-blind-gullible.html (http://fanaticforjesus.blogspot.com/2012/09/tom-horn-leading-blind-gullible.html)

http://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpress/apollyon-is-not-rising-in-2012-you-are-being-hornswoggled.html (http://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpress/apollyon-is-not-rising-in-2012-you-are-being-hornswoggled.html)

http://www.examiner.com/article/tom-horn-profiting-from-false-prophecy (http://www.examiner.com/article/tom-horn-profiting-from-false-prophecy)

Sure, whatever your silly little blogs say. Just remember, when the Vatican claims to have found intelligent life, it's time to leave.

Just to be clear, Tom did not ever asset that Jesus was a hybrid human. He was simply making a wild guess of what the Vatican might come up with when they claim to have made contact with other intelligent life. They will have a problem with the actual Jesus at that time because it will open up a huge can of worms. They will come up with some elaborate lie that millions of people will believe, that is for sure. They are very good at that.

Sorry, but established dogma make that impossible.  Tom not only makes stuff up, but he has little understanding of how the Catholic Church operates with regard to established dogma.

The nature of Jesus Christ has been solidly established in dogma as being both God (divine) and man.  That goes back to the time when the Church defined the dogma of the hypostatic union in 431.  No future "revelation" can change that fact, and it is beyond naive to believe otherwise.  Once a dogma is established, no person on Earth can change it, not even the Pope nor the Magisterium.

I'll leave you to your knavish dollar chasers though, you seem happy enough believing silly things.

You are totally correct dear Catholica, just some have a total hatred that blinds them to truly look into the facts that the Catholic Church claims.

I was raised in the RCC and am very well schooled in what they claim.

: His Kid  Tue Jan 26, 2016 - 07:19:30

: Hexalpa  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 22:06:57

: Catholica  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 14:14:51

: His Kid  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 13:58:31

: Catholica  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 13:01:09

: His Kid  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 11:37:05

: Catholica  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 11:28:53

: His Kid  Sun Jan 24, 2016 - 09:28:38

: Catholica  Sun Jan 24, 2016 - 06:39:34
I've already established that The authors of that book are charlatans. Name one other source that suggests the same.

You established those awesome Christian men as charlatans? That's funny.

That you think its funny is fairly disturbing. 

One of the authors contacted the director at the VATT, took his replies to those emails and completely twisted and distorted what he wrote, and published that into the book.

Here is the link that you must not have read.

http://brotherguy.livejournal.com/74394.html (http://brotherguy.livejournal.com/74394.html)

And the link to Tom Horn et. al established here:

http://barthsnotes.com/2013/05/01/vatican-astronomer-claims-thomas-horn-twisted-misquoted-his-words-invented-utter-falsehoods/ (http://barthsnotes.com/2013/05/01/vatican-astronomer-claims-thomas-horn-twisted-misquoted-his-words-invented-utter-falsehoods/)

I think it's funny that you think you have established these men of God as charlatans. There was no twisting of words or falsehoods. It is an utter lack of comprehension of what the book is about and how it is presented. Oy vey.

Well here are some other "established men of God" with something to say about Tom Horn:

http://fanaticforjesus.blogspot.com/2012/09/tom-horn-leading-blind-gullible.html (http://fanaticforjesus.blogspot.com/2012/09/tom-horn-leading-blind-gullible.html)

http://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpress/apollyon-is-not-rising-in-2012-you-are-being-hornswoggled.html (http://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpress/apollyon-is-not-rising-in-2012-you-are-being-hornswoggled.html)

http://www.examiner.com/article/tom-horn-profiting-from-false-prophecy (http://www.examiner.com/article/tom-horn-profiting-from-false-prophecy)

Sure, whatever your silly little blogs say. Just remember, when the Vatican claims to have found intelligent life, it's time to leave.

Just to be clear, Tom did not ever asset that Jesus was a hybrid human. He was simply making a wild guess of what the Vatican might come up with when they claim to have made contact with other intelligent life. They will have a problem with the actual Jesus at that time because it will open up a huge can of worms. They will come up with some elaborate lie that millions of people will believe, that is for sure. They are very good at that.

Sorry, but established dogma make that impossible.  Tom not only makes stuff up, but he has little understanding of how the Catholic Church operates with regard to established dogma.

The nature of Jesus Christ has been solidly established in dogma as being both God (divine) and man.  That goes back to the time when the Church defined the dogma of the hypostatic union in 431.  No future "revelation" can change that fact, and it is beyond naive to believe otherwise.  Once a dogma is established, no person on Earth can change it, not even the Pope nor the Magisterium.

I'll leave you to your knavish dollar chasers though, you seem happy enough believing silly things.

You are totally correct dear Catholica, just some have a total hatred that blinds them to truly look into the facts that the Catholic Church claims.

I was raised in the RCC and am very well schooled in what they claim.

I was not raised as a Catholic and was taught to hate them and was spun a hole lot of lies, I found out such were all lies and I wanted to attack them, so I looked into what they claim and found out that my protestant religion was guilty of so much slander against the RCC that I was shocked, not to mention when I walked about the Roman Catholics I found that such people were into what the Protestants said the Roman Catholics were into.

What the RCC teachers from the top does not go out to the Churches that are under it's guidance, but there is another movement or mob that rejects most of what the top and the Pope's say and live in ignorance.

I suppose it's the same with all religions as well, as when I was in the Lutheran Church I came against the same ignorant types that did not follow the leadership, but then again the ones that did had to leave in disgust of what their Church was becoming, and the same is so of my C of E good faithful people have left in droves.

Satan is at work doing his best and the true Christians have become lost to a new satanic Political Correct god that most totally love full on. (mans works)
No one can stand up to them lot because they use PC to push their way around and they do it with so much vengeance but cunning as Satan.

I know how lovely Satan can make himself out to be, but he leads all astray and the problem is people just don't comprehend just how cunning Satan works are.

Blind faith is worthless, one must comprehend Original Sin. 

: Hexalpa  Tue Jan 26, 2016 - 16:57:23

: His Kid  Tue Jan 26, 2016 - 07:19:30

: Hexalpa  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 22:06:57

: Catholica  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 14:14:51

: His Kid  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 13:58:31

: Catholica  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 13:01:09

: His Kid  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 11:37:05

: Catholica  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 11:28:53

: His Kid  Sun Jan 24, 2016 - 09:28:38

: Catholica  Sun Jan 24, 2016 - 06:39:34
I've already established that The authors of that book are charlatans. Name one other source that suggests the same.

You established those awesome Christian men as charlatans? That's funny.

That you think its funny is fairly disturbing. 

One of the authors contacted the director at the VATT, took his replies to those emails and completely twisted and distorted what he wrote, and published that into the book.

Here is the link that you must not have read.

http://brotherguy.livejournal.com/74394.html (http://brotherguy.livejournal.com/74394.html)

And the link to Tom Horn et. al established here:

http://barthsnotes.com/2013/05/01/vatican-astronomer-claims-thomas-horn-twisted-misquoted-his-words-invented-utter-falsehoods/ (http://barthsnotes.com/2013/05/01/vatican-astronomer-claims-thomas-horn-twisted-misquoted-his-words-invented-utter-falsehoods/)

I think it's funny that you think you have established these men of God as charlatans. There was no twisting of words or falsehoods. It is an utter lack of comprehension of what the book is about and how it is presented. Oy vey.

Well here are some other "established men of God" with something to say about Tom Horn:

http://fanaticforjesus.blogspot.com/2012/09/tom-horn-leading-blind-gullible.html (http://fanaticforjesus.blogspot.com/2012/09/tom-horn-leading-blind-gullible.html)

http://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpress/apollyon-is-not-rising-in-2012-you-are-being-hornswoggled.html (http://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpress/apollyon-is-not-rising-in-2012-you-are-being-hornswoggled.html)

http://www.examiner.com/article/tom-horn-profiting-from-false-prophecy (http://www.examiner.com/article/tom-horn-profiting-from-false-prophecy)

Sure, whatever your silly little blogs say. Just remember, when the Vatican claims to have found intelligent life, it's time to leave.

Just to be clear, Tom did not ever asset that Jesus was a hybrid human. He was simply making a wild guess of what the Vatican might come up with when they claim to have made contact with other intelligent life. They will have a problem with the actual Jesus at that time because it will open up a huge can of worms. They will come up with some elaborate lie that millions of people will believe, that is for sure. They are very good at that.

Sorry, but established dogma make that impossible.  Tom not only makes stuff up, but he has little understanding of how the Catholic Church operates with regard to established dogma.

The nature of Jesus Christ has been solidly established in dogma as being both God (divine) and man.  That goes back to the time when the Church defined the dogma of the hypostatic union in 431.  No future "revelation" can change that fact, and it is beyond naive to believe otherwise.  Once a dogma is established, no person on Earth can change it, not even the Pope nor the Magisterium.

I'll leave you to your knavish dollar chasers though, you seem happy enough believing silly things.

You are totally correct dear Catholica, just some have a total hatred that blinds them to truly look into the facts that the Catholic Church claims.

I was raised in the RCC and am very well schooled in what they claim.

I was not raised as a Catholic and was taught to hate them and was spun a hole lot of lies, I found out such were all lies and I wanted to attack them, so I looked into what they claim and found out that my protestant religion was guilty of so much slander against the RCC that I was shocked, not to mention when I walked about the Roman Catholics I found that such people were into what the Protestants said the Roman Catholics were into.

What the RCC teachers from the top does not go out to the Churches that are under it's guidance, but there is another movement or mob that rejects most of what the top and the Pope's say and live in ignorance.

I suppose it's the same with all religions as well, as when I was in the Lutheran Church I came against the same ignorant types that did not follow the leadership, but then again the ones that did had to leave in disgust of what their Church was becoming, and the same is so of my C of E good faithful people have left in droves.

Satan is at work doing his best and the true Christians have become lost to a new satanic Political Correct god that most totally love full on. (mans works)
No one can stand up to them lot because they use PC to push their way around and they do it with so much vengeance but cunning as Satan.

I know how lovely Satan can make himself out to be, but he leads all astray and the problem is people just don't comprehend just how cunning Satan works are.

Blind faith is worthless, one must comprehend Original Sin.

Ah, well that explains it. Protestantism is just an offshoot of Catholicism. I am neither.
When I was in the Catholic church, I was taught to hate Christians.

By the way, original sin is not a Scriptural teaching. It is a fabrication of the RCC which lends to the complete distortion of the true richness of the sacrifice of Christ which the RCC rejects.

: His Kid  Tue Jan 26, 2016 - 17:08:00
When I was in the Catholic church, I was taught to hate Christians.

Really?  What did they teach you to do?

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 08:15:39

: His Kid  Tue Jan 26, 2016 - 17:08:00
When I was in the Catholic church, I was taught to hate Christians.

Really?  What did they teach you to do?

It was the general attitude of Catholics toward born-again believers by all levels of people, and it is the same today. Because I left that religion, I am especially loathsome to Catholics.

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 08:21:03

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 08:15:39

: His Kid  Tue Jan 26, 2016 - 17:08:00
When I was in the Catholic church, I was taught to hate Christians.

Really?  What did they teach you to do?

It was the general attitude of Catholics toward born-again believers by all levels of people, and it is the same today. Because I left that religion, I am especially loathsome to Catholics.

Do you have any examples that you experienced when you were in the Catholic Church?

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 08:26:54

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 08:21:03

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 08:15:39

: His Kid  Tue Jan 26, 2016 - 17:08:00
When I was in the Catholic church, I was taught to hate Christians.

Really?  What did they teach you to do?

It was the general attitude of Catholics toward born-again believers by all levels of people, and it is the same today. Because I left that religion, I am especially loathsome to Catholics.

Do you have any examples that you experienced when you were in the Catholic Church?

Yes, many, but  none that I wish to share with you. My experiences with Catholics is not up for debate with you.

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 08:30:54

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 08:26:54

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 08:21:03

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 08:15:39

: His Kid  Tue Jan 26, 2016 - 17:08:00
When I was in the Catholic church, I was taught to hate Christians.

Really?  What did they teach you to do?

It was the general attitude of Catholics toward born-again believers by all levels of people, and it is the same today. Because I left that religion, I am especially loathsome to Catholics.

Do you have any examples that you experienced when you were in the Catholic Church?

Yes, many, but  none that I wish to share with you. My experiences with Catholics is not up for debate with you.

Perhaps you are loathsome to Catholics because you feel no qualms in making up stuff about the Catholic Church, things that are not true, and act as if they are true, with no evidence to support your statements.

In all the Catholic churches, in all the masses I have ever been too, and all the Catholics I have known personally, I have never experienced anyone "hating" or teaching hate for non-Catholics.  There are a few nutty ones online who do exhibit that, but in real-life, and not the online life, Catholics who have anything but love for all people are exceedingly rare, and the Catholic Church certainly doesn't teach people to hate non-Catholics.

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 08:39:14

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 08:30:54

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 08:26:54

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 08:21:03

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 08:15:39

: His Kid  Tue Jan 26, 2016 - 17:08:00
When I was in the Catholic church, I was taught to hate Christians.

Really?  What did they teach you to do?

It was the general attitude of Catholics toward born-again believers by all levels of people, and it is the same today. Because I left that religion, I am especially loathsome to Catholics.

Do you have any examples that you experienced when you were in the Catholic Church?

Yes, many, but  none that I wish to share with you. My experiences with Catholics is not up for debate with you.

Perhaps you are loathsome to Catholics because you feel no qualms in making up stuff about the Catholic Church, things that are not true, and act as if they are true, with no evidence to support your statements.

In all the Catholic churches, in all the masses I have ever been too, and all the Catholics I have known personally, I have never experienced anyone "hating" or teaching hate for non-Catholics.  There are a few nutty ones online who do exhibit that, but in real-life, and not the online life, Catholics who have anything but love for all people are exceedingly rare, and the Catholic Church certainly doesn't teach people to hate non-Catholics.

I never said non-Catholics, I said Christians. Catholics LOVE non-Catholics. They just don't much care for the real church, BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS,  for obvious reasons.

I actually don't have conversations about Catholic teachings with Catholics in person except to tell Catholics that 'Mary is NOT my mother', etc.

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 08:39:14

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 08:30:54

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 08:26:54

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 08:21:03

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 08:15:39

: His Kid  Tue Jan 26, 2016 - 17:08:00
When I was in the Catholic church, I was taught to hate Christians.

Really?  What did they teach you to do?

It was the general attitude of Catholics toward born-again believers by all levels of people, and it is the same today. Because I left that religion, I am especially loathsome to Catholics.

Do you have any examples that you experienced when you were in the Catholic Church?

Yes, many, but  none that I wish to share with you. My experiences with Catholics is not up for debate with you.

Perhaps you are loathsome to Catholics because you feel no qualms in making up stuff about the Catholic Church, things that are not true, and act as if they are true, with no evidence to support your statements.

In all the Catholic churches, in all the masses I have ever been too, and all the Catholics I have known personally, I have never experienced anyone "hating" or teaching hate for non-Catholics.  There are a few nutty ones online who do exhibit that, but in real-life, and not the online life, Catholics who have anything but love for all people are exceedingly rare, and the Catholic Church certainly doesn't teach people to hate non-Catholics.

To be clear, when I have discussions with Catholics in person, I am always in the position of defending my decision to leave, not discussing the blasphemous teachings of that religion.

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 08:39:14

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 08:30:54

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 08:26:54

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 08:21:03

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 08:15:39

: His Kid  Tue Jan 26, 2016 - 17:08:00
When I was in the Catholic church, I was taught to hate Christians.

Really?  What did they teach you to do?

It was the general attitude of Catholics toward born-again believers by all levels of people, and it is the same today. Because I left that religion, I am especially loathsome to Catholics.

Do you have any examples that you experienced when you were in the Catholic Church?

Yes, many, but  none that I wish to share with you. My experiences with Catholics is not up for debate with you.

Perhaps you are loathsome to Catholics because you feel no qualms in making up stuff about the Catholic Church, things that are not true, and act as if they are true, with no evidence to support your statements.

In all the Catholic churches, in all the masses I have ever been too, and all the Catholics I have known personally, I have never experienced anyone "hating" or teaching hate for non-Catholics.  There are a few nutty ones online who do exhibit that, but in real-life, and not the online life, Catholics who have anything but love for all people are exceedingly rare, and the Catholic Church certainly doesn't teach people to hate non-Catholics.

It's actually kinda funny how Catholics view X-Catholics, as if they have some ownership over us because we are just wayward Catholics or something. LOL. The general belief is once you are baptized into that religion, you can't leave. You are a Catholic whether you like it or not, and if you reject the religion, you're just a really bad Catholic. It is so arrogant. It's unbelievable, actually.

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 09:04:47

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 08:39:14

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 08:30:54

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 08:26:54

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 08:21:03

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 08:15:39

: His Kid  Tue Jan 26, 2016 - 17:08:00
When I was in the Catholic church, I was taught to hate Christians.

Really?  What did they teach you to do?

It was the general attitude of Catholics toward born-again believers by all levels of people, and it is the same today. Because I left that religion, I am especially loathsome to Catholics.

Do you have any examples that you experienced when you were in the Catholic Church?

Yes, many, but  none that I wish to share with you. My experiences with Catholics is not up for debate with you.

Perhaps you are loathsome to Catholics because you feel no qualms in making up stuff about the Catholic Church, things that are not true, and act as if they are true, with no evidence to support your statements.

In all the Catholic churches, in all the masses I have ever been too, and all the Catholics I have known personally, I have never experienced anyone "hating" or teaching hate for non-Catholics.  There are a few nutty ones online who do exhibit that, but in real-life, and not the online life, Catholics who have anything but love for all people are exceedingly rare, and the Catholic Church certainly doesn't teach people to hate non-Catholics.

It's actually kinda funny how Catholics view X-Catholics, as if they have some ownership over us because we are just wayward Catholics or something. LOL. The general belief is once you are baptized into that religion, you can't leave. You are a Catholic whether you like it or not, and if you reject the religion, you're just a really bad Catholic. It is so arrogant. It's unbelievable, actually.

It's not a matter of arrogance...it is the system that makes a true departure out of the RCC a very complicated (if not impossible) matter.

: AVZ  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 09:16:20

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 09:04:47

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 08:39:14

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 08:30:54

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 08:26:54

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 08:21:03

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 08:15:39

: His Kid  Tue Jan 26, 2016 - 17:08:00
When I was in the Catholic church, I was taught to hate Christians.

Really?  What did they teach you to do?

It was the general attitude of Catholics toward born-again believers by all levels of people, and it is the same today. Because I left that religion, I am especially loathsome to Catholics.

Do you have any examples that you experienced when you were in the Catholic Church?

Yes, many, but  none that I wish to share with you. My experiences with Catholics is not up for debate with you.

Perhaps you are loathsome to Catholics because you feel no qualms in making up stuff about the Catholic Church, things that are not true, and act as if they are true, with no evidence to support your statements.

In all the Catholic churches, in all the masses I have ever been too, and all the Catholics I have known personally, I have never experienced anyone "hating" or teaching hate for non-Catholics.  There are a few nutty ones online who do exhibit that, but in real-life, and not the online life, Catholics who have anything but love for all people are exceedingly rare, and the Catholic Church certainly doesn't teach people to hate non-Catholics.

It's actually kinda funny how Catholics view X-Catholics, as if they have some ownership over us because we are just wayward Catholics or something. LOL. The general belief is once you are baptized into that religion, you can't leave. You are a Catholic whether you like it or not, and if you reject the religion, you're just a really bad Catholic. It is so arrogant. It's unbelievable, actually.

It's not a matter of arrogance...it is the system that makes a true departure out of the RCC a very complicated (if not impossible) matter.

you just leave, like you can from any church/denomination/faith

: AVZ  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 09:16:20

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 09:04:47

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 08:39:14

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 08:30:54

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 08:26:54

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 08:21:03

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 08:15:39

: His Kid  Tue Jan 26, 2016 - 17:08:00
When I was in the Catholic church, I was taught to hate Christians.

Really?  What did they teach you to do?

It was the general attitude of Catholics toward born-again believers by all levels of people, and it is the same today. Because I left that religion, I am especially loathsome to Catholics.

Do you have any examples that you experienced when you were in the Catholic Church?

Yes, many, but  none that I wish to share with you. My experiences with Catholics is not up for debate with you.

Perhaps you are loathsome to Catholics because you feel no qualms in making up stuff about the Catholic Church, things that are not true, and act as if they are true, with no evidence to support your statements.

In all the Catholic churches, in all the masses I have ever been too, and all the Catholics I have known personally, I have never experienced anyone "hating" or teaching hate for non-Catholics.  There are a few nutty ones online who do exhibit that, but in real-life, and not the online life, Catholics who have anything but love for all people are exceedingly rare, and the Catholic Church certainly doesn't teach people to hate non-Catholics.

It's actually kinda funny how Catholics view X-Catholics, as if they have some ownership over us because we are just wayward Catholics or something. LOL. The general belief is once you are baptized into that religion, you can't leave. You are a Catholic whether you like it or not, and if you reject the religion, you're just a really bad Catholic. It is so arrogant. It's unbelievable, actually.

It's not a matter of arrogance...it is the system that makes a true departure out of the RCC a very complicated (if not impossible) matter.

The only thing that is difficult about leaving Catholicism is if you were raised in it. The brainwashing as a child is extremely difficult to combat. Other than that, it's not difficult at all. What they believe about people 'departing' their church is irrelevant. It's all a bunch of baloney.

: chosenone  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 10:05:00

: AVZ  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 09:16:20

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 09:04:47

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 08:39:14

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 08:30:54

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 08:26:54

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 08:21:03

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 08:15:39

: His Kid  Tue Jan 26, 2016 - 17:08:00
When I was in the Catholic church, I was taught to hate Christians.

Really?  What did they teach you to do?

It was the general attitude of Catholics toward born-again believers by all levels of people, and it is the same today. Because I left that religion, I am especially loathsome to Catholics.

Do you have any examples that you experienced when you were in the Catholic Church?

Yes, many, but  none that I wish to share with you. My experiences with Catholics is not up for debate with you.

Perhaps you are loathsome to Catholics because you feel no qualms in making up stuff about the Catholic Church, things that are not true, and act as if they are true, with no evidence to support your statements.

In all the Catholic churches, in all the masses I have ever been too, and all the Catholics I have known personally, I have never experienced anyone "hating" or teaching hate for non-Catholics.  There are a few nutty ones online who do exhibit that, but in real-life, and not the online life, Catholics who have anything but love for all people are exceedingly rare, and the Catholic Church certainly doesn't teach people to hate non-Catholics.

It's actually kinda funny how Catholics view X-Catholics, as if they have some ownership over us because we are just wayward Catholics or something. LOL. The general belief is once you are baptized into that religion, you can't leave. You are a Catholic whether you like it or not, and if you reject the religion, you're just a really bad Catholic. It is so arrogant. It's unbelievable, actually.

It's not a matter of arrogance...it is the system that makes a true departure out of the RCC a very complicated (if not impossible) matter.

you just leave, like you can from any church/denomination/faith

Exactly. What the RCC teaches about people who leave is just a means of intimidating the people who stay. I never took any of their threats seriously.

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 10:51:10
Exactly. What the RCC teaches about people who leave is just a means of intimidating the people who stay. I never took any of their threats seriously.

There were no threats, just teachings.  The Bible concurs:

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

Does your new faith community reject this verse?  Or do you apply it, such that if a person were to join some other Protestant or Catholic "denomination" which your group rejects, would not also consider you an "apostate" to "born again Christianity"?

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 11:59:54

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 10:51:10
Exactly. What the RCC teaches about people who leave is just a means of intimidating the people who stay. I never took any of their threats seriously.

There were no threats, just teachings.  The Bible concurs:

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

Does your new faith community reject this verse?  Or do you apply it, such that if a person were to join some other Protestant or Catholic "denomination" which your group rejects, would not also consider you an "apostate" to "born again Christianity"?

What you posted has absolutely nothing to do with Catholicism. It wasn't until after I repented of practicing Catholicism and was born again that I tasted the heavenly gift.

 

The ex-Catholic maneuver I:

When dealing with anyone that has left our church, it is important that you immediately charge them with blatant ignorance of the Catholic Church and what she teaches. You must charge this person with not ever being a real Catholic to begin with or never understanding what they were taught. This is very important. It must be made clear to all listeners or lurkers that only ignorant people leave our faith. That is the only possibility, right?

This maneuver must be used especially if they seem better informed than the average Catholic about Catholicism. We never want any lurkers to ever get the idea that anyone would ever leave Mother Church if they really, really understood her teachings. If that means charging others as ignorant, so be it. We must break a few eggs to make an omelet. Don't forget that Catholic. God will forgive you.

The ex-Catholic maneuver II:

If you are dealing with an ex-Catholic that you really do not like, it may be handy to publically charge them with disobedience to God as their reason for leaving the church. Whether it is birth control, premarital sex, divorce or what have you. You could care less. None of that matters to you. Just label them with anything that you think will stick. This way unwary lurkers may get the impression that this person left Mother Church only to be immoral. Woot! This should serve the purposes of our church very well.

The ex-Catholic maneuver III:

When dealing with all ex-Catholics that are very critical of our doctrines or practices, we must paint them as a person with an ax to grind. This tactic is especially good because we will mildly disparage some unknown Catholic or priest, all the while really discrediting this known ex-Catholic. This is most believable to our audience that may be sympathetic to our cause. Make it clear to all that are listening or reading that only someone out to get revenge would be so critical of Catholicism.

To paint this person as a real monster and you as a saint, be as sugary as possible when employing this maneuver. This is difficult and only the skilled Catholic apologist can hope to pull it off. Simply ask the ex-Catholic kindly...

"What did they do to you when you were Catholic that made you so angy at Christ's Church? You have so much rage, you poor soul. You are simply lashing out because someone hurt you. I will pray for you."
After this, all oblivious lurkers will think this ex-Catholic to have a vandetta and take him/her less seriously than before. Remember that all ex-Catholic maneuvers must be done as publically as possible to have the most effect. It is the spectators we are seeking to influence with these, not the ex-Catholic. The more the better.

Good job, Catholic! Mother Church is proud of you!

and a couple of Others

: Jsta Babbler  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 12:09:15

The ex-Catholic maneuver I:

When dealing with anyone that has left our church, it is important that you immediately charge them with blatant ignorance of the Catholic Church and what she teaches. You must charge this person with not ever being a real Catholic to begin with or never understanding what they were taught. This is very important. It must be made clear to all listeners or lurkers that only ignorant people leave our faith. That is the only possibility, right?

This maneuver must be used especially if they seem better informed than the average Catholic about Catholicism. We never want any lurkers to ever get the idea that anyone would ever leave Mother Church if they really, really understood her teachings. If that means charging others as ignorant, so be it. We must break a few eggs to make an omelet. Don't forget that Catholic. God will forgive you.

The ex-Catholic maneuver II:

If you are dealing with an ex-Catholic that you really do not like, it may be handy to publically charge them with disobedience to God as their reason for leaving the church. Whether it is birth control, premarital sex, divorce or what have you. You could care less. None of that matters to you. Just label them with anything that you think will stick. This way unwary lurkers may get the impression that this person left Mother Church only to be immoral. Woot! This should serve the purposes of our church very well.

The ex-Catholic maneuver III:

When dealing with all ex-Catholics that are very critical of our doctrines or practices, we must paint them as a person with an ax to grind. This tactic is especially good because we will mildly disparage some unknown Catholic or priest, all the while really discrediting this known ex-Catholic. This is most believable to our audience that may be sympathetic to our cause. Make it clear to all that are listening or reading that only someone out to get revenge would be so critical of Catholicism.

To paint this person as a real monster and you as a saint, be as sugary as possible when employing this maneuver. This is difficult and only the skilled Catholic apologist can hope to pull it off. Simply ask the ex-Catholic kindly...

"What did they do to you when you were Catholic that made you so angy at Christ's Church? You have so much rage, you poor soul. You are simply lashing out because someone hurt you. I will pray for you."
After this, all oblivious lurkers will think this ex-Catholic to have a vandetta and take him/her less seriously than before. Remember that all ex-Catholic maneuvers must be done as publically as possible to have the most effect. It is the spectators we are seeking to influence with these, not the ex-Catholic. The more the better.

Good job, Catholic! Mother Church is proud of you!

and a couple of Others

I worked with a Catholic woman years ago who became enraged, literally, that I denied Mary was my mother. She was yelling at me and spitting as she was yelling and then stormed out of the office. It was extremely awkward to say the least.

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 12:03:59

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 11:59:54

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 10:51:10
Exactly. What the RCC teaches about people who leave is just a means of intimidating the people who stay. I never took any of their threats seriously.

There were no threats, just teachings.  The Bible concurs:

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

Does your new faith community reject this verse?  Or do you apply it, such that if a person were to join some other Protestant or Catholic "denomination" which your group rejects, would not also consider you an "apostate" to "born again Christianity"?

What you posted has absolutely nothing to do with Catholicism. It wasn't until after I repented of practicing Catholicism and was born again that I tasted the heavenly gift.

So you say, but you missed the question I asked entirely.  Does your new faith community teach this verse?  Say if one our your own were to become Catholic, would Hebrews 6:4-8 apply to them?  In other words, would they be among the "cursed whose end is to be burned"?

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 12:16:10

: Jsta Babbler  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 12:09:15

The ex-Catholic maneuver I:

When dealing with anyone that has left our church, it is important that you immediately charge them with blatant ignorance of the Catholic Church and what she teaches. You must charge this person with not ever being a real Catholic to begin with or never understanding what they were taught. This is very important. It must be made clear to all listeners or lurkers that only ignorant people leave our faith. That is the only possibility, right?

This maneuver must be used especially if they seem better informed than the average Catholic about Catholicism. We never want any lurkers to ever get the idea that anyone would ever leave Mother Church if they really, really understood her teachings. If that means charging others as ignorant, so be it. We must break a few eggs to make an omelet. Don't forget that Catholic. God will forgive you.

The ex-Catholic maneuver II:

If you are dealing with an ex-Catholic that you really do not like, it may be handy to publically charge them with disobedience to God as their reason for leaving the church. Whether it is birth control, premarital sex, divorce or what have you. You could care less. None of that matters to you. Just label them with anything that you think will stick. This way unwary lurkers may get the impression that this person left Mother Church only to be immoral. Woot! This should serve the purposes of our church very well.

The ex-Catholic maneuver III:

When dealing with all ex-Catholics that are very critical of our doctrines or practices, we must paint them as a person with an ax to grind. This tactic is especially good because we will mildly disparage some unknown Catholic or priest, all the while really discrediting this known ex-Catholic. This is most believable to our audience that may be sympathetic to our cause. Make it clear to all that are listening or reading that only someone out to get revenge would be so critical of Catholicism.

To paint this person as a real monster and you as a saint, be as sugary as possible when employing this maneuver. This is difficult and only the skilled Catholic apologist can hope to pull it off. Simply ask the ex-Catholic kindly...

"What did they do to you when you were Catholic that made you so angy at Christ's Church? You have so much rage, you poor soul. You are simply lashing out because someone hurt you. I will pray for you."
After this, all oblivious lurkers will think this ex-Catholic to have a vandetta and take him/her less seriously than before. Remember that all ex-Catholic maneuvers must be done as publically as possible to have the most effect. It is the spectators we are seeking to influence with these, not the ex-Catholic. The more the better.

Good job, Catholic! Mother Church is proud of you!

and a couple of Others

I worked with a Catholic woman years ago who became enraged, literally, that I denied Mary was my mother. She was yelling at me and spitting as she was yelling and then stormed out of the office. It was extremely awkward to say the least.

It didn't sound like she hated you though.

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 12:37:39

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 12:16:10

: Jsta Babbler  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 12:09:15

The ex-Catholic maneuver I:

When dealing with anyone that has left our church, it is important that you immediately charge them with blatant ignorance of the Catholic Church and what she teaches. You must charge this person with not ever being a real Catholic to begin with or never understanding what they were taught. This is very important. It must be made clear to all listeners or lurkers that only ignorant people leave our faith. That is the only possibility, right?

This maneuver must be used especially if they seem better informed than the average Catholic about Catholicism. We never want any lurkers to ever get the idea that anyone would ever leave Mother Church if they really, really understood her teachings. If that means charging others as ignorant, so be it. We must break a few eggs to make an omelet. Don't forget that Catholic. God will forgive you.

The ex-Catholic maneuver II:

If you are dealing with an ex-Catholic that you really do not like, it may be handy to publically charge them with disobedience to God as their reason for leaving the church. Whether it is birth control, premarital sex, divorce or what have you. You could care less. None of that matters to you. Just label them with anything that you think will stick. This way unwary lurkers may get the impression that this person left Mother Church only to be immoral. Woot! This should serve the purposes of our church very well.

The ex-Catholic maneuver III:

When dealing with all ex-Catholics that are very critical of our doctrines or practices, we must paint them as a person with an ax to grind. This tactic is especially good because we will mildly disparage some unknown Catholic or priest, all the while really discrediting this known ex-Catholic. This is most believable to our audience that may be sympathetic to our cause. Make it clear to all that are listening or reading that only someone out to get revenge would be so critical of Catholicism.

To paint this person as a real monster and you as a saint, be as sugary as possible when employing this maneuver. This is difficult and only the skilled Catholic apologist can hope to pull it off. Simply ask the ex-Catholic kindly...

"What did they do to you when you were Catholic that made you so angy at Christ's Church? You have so much rage, you poor soul. You are simply lashing out because someone hurt you. I will pray for you."
After this, all oblivious lurkers will think this ex-Catholic to have a vandetta and take him/her less seriously than before. Remember that all ex-Catholic maneuvers must be done as publically as possible to have the most effect. It is the spectators we are seeking to influence with these, not the ex-Catholic. The more the better.

Good job, Catholic! Mother Church is proud of you!

and a couple of Others

I worked with a Catholic woman years ago who became enraged, literally, that I denied Mary was my mother. She was yelling at me and spitting as she was yelling and then stormed out of the office. It was extremely awkward to say the least.

It didn't sound like she hated you though.

Are you serious right now?

: Jsta Babbler  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 12:09:15

The ex-Catholic maneuver I:

When dealing with anyone that has left our church, it is important that you immediately charge them with blatant ignorance of the Catholic Church and what she teaches. You must charge this person with not ever being a real Catholic to begin with or never understanding what they were taught. This is very important. It must be made clear to all listeners or lurkers that only ignorant people leave our faith. That is the only possibility, right?

This maneuver must be used especially if they seem better informed than the average Catholic about Catholicism. We never want any lurkers to ever get the idea that anyone would ever leave Mother Church if they really, really understood her teachings. If that means charging others as ignorant, so be it. We must break a few eggs to make an omelet. Don't forget that Catholic. God will forgive you.

The ex-Catholic maneuver II:

If you are dealing with an ex-Catholic that you really do not like, it may be handy to publically charge them with disobedience to God as their reason for leaving the church. Whether it is birth control, premarital sex, divorce or what have you. You could care less. None of that matters to you. Just label them with anything that you think will stick. This way unwary lurkers may get the impression that this person left Mother Church only to be immoral. Woot! This should serve the purposes of our church very well.

The ex-Catholic maneuver III:

When dealing with all ex-Catholics that are very critical of our doctrines or practices, we must paint them as a person with an ax to grind. This tactic is especially good because we will mildly disparage some unknown Catholic or priest, all the while really discrediting this known ex-Catholic. This is most believable to our audience that may be sympathetic to our cause. Make it clear to all that are listening or reading that only someone out to get revenge would be so critical of Catholicism.

To paint this person as a real monster and you as a saint, be as sugary as possible when employing this maneuver. This is difficult and only the skilled Catholic apologist can hope to pull it off. Simply ask the ex-Catholic kindly...

"What did they do to you when you were Catholic that made you so angy at Christ's Church? You have so much rage, you poor soul. You are simply lashing out because someone hurt you. I will pray for you."
After this, all oblivious lurkers will think this ex-Catholic to have a vandetta and take him/her less seriously than before. Remember that all ex-Catholic maneuvers must be done as publically as possible to have the most effect. It is the spectators we are seeking to influence with these, not the ex-Catholic. The more the better.

Good job, Catholic! Mother Church is proud of you!

and a couple of Others

Not sure what you meant by this post...  maybe some context would help clarify why you are writing this?

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 12:39:12

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 12:37:39

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 12:16:10
I worked with a Catholic woman years ago who became enraged, literally, that I denied Mary was my mother. She was yelling at me and spitting as she was yelling and then stormed out of the office. It was extremely awkward to say the least.

It didn't sound like she hated you though.

Are you serious right now?

Yes.  It sounds like you just got her riled up.

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 12:40:26

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 12:39:12

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 12:37:39

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 12:16:10
I worked with a Catholic woman years ago who became enraged, literally, that I denied Mary was my mother. She was yelling at me and spitting as she was yelling and then stormed out of the office. It was extremely awkward to say the least.

It didn't sound like she hated you though.

Are you serious right now?

Yes.  It sounds like you just got her riled up.

LOL. That's hilarious. I'm not responsible for how other people behave. Her behavior is typical for Catholics toward X-Catholics. She was attacking me. My faith was none of her business. LOL.

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 12:39:32

: Jsta Babbler  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 12:09:15

The ex-Catholic maneuver I:

When dealing with anyone that has left our church, it is important that you immediately charge them with blatant ignorance of the Catholic Church and what she teaches. You must charge this person with not ever being a real Catholic to begin with or never understanding what they were taught. This is very important. It must be made clear to all listeners or lurkers that only ignorant people leave our faith. That is the only possibility, right?

This maneuver must be used especially if they seem better informed than the average Catholic about Catholicism. We never want any lurkers to ever get the idea that anyone would ever leave Mother Church if they really, really understood her teachings. If that means charging others as ignorant, so be it. We must break a few eggs to make an omelet. Don't forget that Catholic. God will forgive you.

The ex-Catholic maneuver II:

If you are dealing with an ex-Catholic that you really do not like, it may be handy to publically charge them with disobedience to God as their reason for leaving the church. Whether it is birth control, premarital sex, divorce or what have you. You could care less. None of that matters to you. Just label them with anything that you think will stick. This way unwary lurkers may get the impression that this person left Mother Church only to be immoral. Woot! This should serve the purposes of our church very well.

The ex-Catholic maneuver III:

When dealing with all ex-Catholics that are very critical of our doctrines or practices, we must paint them as a person with an ax to grind. This tactic is especially good because we will mildly disparage some unknown Catholic or priest, all the while really discrediting this known ex-Catholic. This is most believable to our audience that may be sympathetic to our cause. Make it clear to all that are listening or reading that only someone out to get revenge would be so critical of Catholicism.

To paint this person as a real monster and you as a saint, be as sugary as possible when employing this maneuver. This is difficult and only the skilled Catholic apologist can hope to pull it off. Simply ask the ex-Catholic kindly...

"What did they do to you when you were Catholic that made you so angy at Christ's Church? You have so much rage, you poor soul. You are simply lashing out because someone hurt you. I will pray for you."
After this, all oblivious lurkers will think this ex-Catholic to have a vandetta and take him/her less seriously than before. Remember that all ex-Catholic maneuvers must be done as publically as possible to have the most effect. It is the spectators we are seeking to influence with these, not the ex-Catholic. The more the better.

Good job, Catholic! Mother Church is proud of you!

and a couple of Others

Not sure what you meant by this post...  maybe some context would help clarify why you are writing this?

Really? I understood it perfectly.

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 12:16:10
I worked with a Catholic woman years ago who became enraged, literally, that I denied Mary was my mother. She was yelling at me and spitting as she was yelling and then stormed out of the office. It was extremely awkward to say the least.

------ that I denied Mary was my mother ----

Why For, she is not; our Mother is here

Gal.4:26
" .... Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all."


::eatingpopcorn:

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 12:52:43

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 12:40:26

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 12:39:12

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 12:37:39

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 12:16:10
I worked with a Catholic woman years ago who became enraged, literally, that I denied Mary was my mother. She was yelling at me and spitting as she was yelling and then stormed out of the office. It was extremely awkward to say the least.

It didn't sound like she hated you though.

Are you serious right now?

Yes.  It sounds like you just got her riled up.

LOL. That's hilarious. I'm not responsible for how other people behave. Her behavior is typical for Catholics toward X-Catholics. She was attacking me. My faith was none of her business. LOL.

She was arguing against your belief, believing that you were wrong and trying to (according to her belief) show you that what you believe (according to her) is in error.

That is love, not hate.

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 14:56:31

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 12:52:43

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 12:40:26

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 12:39:12

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 12:37:39

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 12:16:10
I worked with a Catholic woman years ago who became enraged, literally, that I denied Mary was my mother. She was yelling at me and spitting as she was yelling and then stormed out of the office. It was extremely awkward to say the least.

It didn't sound like she hated you though.

Are you serious right now?

Yes.  It sounds like you just got her riled up.

LOL. That's hilarious. I'm not responsible for how other people behave. Her behavior is typical for Catholics toward X-Catholics. She was attacking me. My faith was none of her business. LOL.

She was arguing against your belief, believing that you were wrong and trying to (according to her belief) show you that what you believe (according to her) is in error.

That is love, not hate.

She was screaming, she wasn't arguing. Furthermore, she was livid that I didn't buy into the lie because it challenges her beliefs, not because she was concerned for my eternal welfare. I knew her. You didn't. Get over yourself.

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 15:00:36

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 14:56:31

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 12:52:43

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 12:40:26

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 12:39:12

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 12:37:39

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 12:16:10
I worked with a Catholic woman years ago who became enraged, literally, that I denied Mary was my mother. She was yelling at me and spitting as she was yelling and then stormed out of the office. It was extremely awkward to say the least.

It didn't sound like she hated you though.

Are you serious right now?

Yes.  It sounds like you just got her riled up.

LOL. That's hilarious. I'm not responsible for how other people behave. Her behavior is typical for Catholics toward X-Catholics. She was attacking me. My faith was none of her business. LOL.

She was arguing against your belief, believing that you were wrong and trying to (according to her belief) show you that what you believe (according to her) is in error.

That is love, not hate.

She was screaming, she wasn't arguing. Furthermore, she was livid that I didn't buy into the lie because it challenges her beliefs, not because she was concerned for my eternal welfare. I knew her. You didn't. Get over yourself.

How did the conversation start?  She just came in foaming at the mouth and livid?  Why didn't you call the doctor?

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 15:04:07

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 15:00:36

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 14:56:31

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 12:52:43

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 12:40:26

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 12:39:12

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 12:37:39

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 12:16:10
I worked with a Catholic woman years ago who became enraged, literally, that I denied Mary was my mother. She was yelling at me and spitting as she was yelling and then stormed out of the office. It was extremely awkward to say the least.

It didn't sound like she hated you though.

Are you serious right now?

Yes.  It sounds like you just got her riled up.

LOL. That's hilarious. I'm not responsible for how other people behave. Her behavior is typical for Catholics toward X-Catholics. She was attacking me. My faith was none of her business. LOL.

She was arguing against your belief, believing that you were wrong and trying to (according to her belief) show you that what you believe (according to her) is in error.

That is love, not hate.

She was screaming, she wasn't arguing. Furthermore, she was livid that I didn't buy into the lie because it challenges her beliefs, not because she was concerned for my eternal welfare. I knew her. You didn't. Get over yourself.

How did the conversation start?  She just came in foaming at the mouth and livid?  Why didn't you call the doctor?

This conversation is over. I told you my personal experiences with Catholics and Catholicism are not up for debate with you and I never should have responded the first time.

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 15:06:42

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 15:04:07

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 15:00:36

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 14:56:31

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 12:52:43

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 12:40:26

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 12:39:12

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 12:37:39

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 12:16:10
I worked with a Catholic woman years ago who became enraged, literally, that I denied Mary was my mother. She was yelling at me and spitting as she was yelling and then stormed out of the office. It was extremely awkward to say the least.

It didn't sound like she hated you though.

Are you serious right now?

Yes.  It sounds like you just got her riled up.

LOL. That's hilarious. I'm not responsible for how other people behave. Her behavior is typical for Catholics toward X-Catholics. She was attacking me. My faith was none of her business. LOL.

She was arguing against your belief, believing that you were wrong and trying to (according to her belief) show you that what you believe (according to her) is in error.

That is love, not hate.

She was screaming, she wasn't arguing. Furthermore, she was livid that I didn't buy into the lie because it challenges her beliefs, not because she was concerned for my eternal welfare. I knew her. You didn't. Get over yourself.

How did the conversation start?  She just came in foaming at the mouth and livid?  Why didn't you call the doctor?

This conversation is over. I told you my personal experiences with Catholics and Catholicism are not up for debate with you and I never should have responded the first time.

Guys, really?
Whats the argument here? That a Catholic can't misbehave? Sure they can. But I bet you there are loads of Protestants who do as well.
Surely you can agree the behavior of one Catholic or one Protestant is not representative for the whole group.

: AVZ  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 20:30:38

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 15:06:42

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 15:04:07

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 15:00:36

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 14:56:31

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 12:52:43

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 12:40:26

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 12:39:12

: Catholica  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 12:37:39

: His Kid  Wed Jan 27, 2016 - 12:16:10
I worked with a Catholic woman years ago who became enraged, literally, that I denied Mary was my mother. She was yelling at me and spitting as she was yelling and then stormed out of the office. It was extremely awkward to say the least.

It didn't sound like she hated you though.

Are you serious right now?

Yes.  It sounds like you just got her riled up.

LOL. That's hilarious. I'm not responsible for how other people behave. Her behavior is typical for Catholics toward X-Catholics. She was attacking me. My faith was none of her business. LOL.

She was arguing against your belief, believing that you were wrong and trying to (according to her belief) show you that what you believe (according to her) is in error.

That is love, not hate.

She was screaming, she wasn't arguing. Furthermore, she was livid that I didn't buy into the lie because it challenges her beliefs, not because she was concerned for my eternal welfare. I knew her. You didn't. Get over yourself.

How did the conversation start?  She just came in foaming at the mouth and livid?  Why didn't you call the doctor?

This conversation is over. I told you my personal experiences with Catholics and Catholicism are not up for debate with you and I never should have responded the first time.

Guys, really?
Whats the argument here? That a Catholic can't misbehave? Sure they can. But I bet you there are loads of Protestants who do as well.
Surely you can agree the behavior of one Catholic or one Protestant is not representative for the whole group.

I think you've missed the point.

By the way, I'm not a Protestant.

: His Kid  Tue Jan 26, 2016 - 17:08:00

: Hexalpa  Tue Jan 26, 2016 - 16:57:23

: His Kid  Tue Jan 26, 2016 - 07:19:30

: Hexalpa  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 22:06:57

: Catholica  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 14:14:51

: His Kid  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 13:58:31

: Catholica  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 13:01:09

: His Kid  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 11:37:05

: Catholica  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 11:28:53

: His Kid  Sun Jan 24, 2016 - 09:28:38

: Catholica  Sun Jan 24, 2016 - 06:39:34
I've already established that The authors of that book are charlatans. Name one other source that suggests the same.

You established those awesome Christian men as charlatans? That's funny.

That you think its funny is fairly disturbing. 

One of the authors contacted the director at the VATT, took his replies to those emails and completely twisted and distorted what he wrote, and published that into the book.

Here is the link that you must not have read.

http://brotherguy.livejournal.com/74394.html (http://brotherguy.livejournal.com/74394.html)

And the link to Tom Horn et. al established here:

http://barthsnotes.com/2013/05/01/vatican-astronomer-claims-thomas-horn-twisted-misquoted-his-words-invented-utter-falsehoods/ (http://barthsnotes.com/2013/05/01/vatican-astronomer-claims-thomas-horn-twisted-misquoted-his-words-invented-utter-falsehoods/)

I think it's funny that you think you have established these men of God as charlatans. There was no twisting of words or falsehoods. It is an utter lack of comprehension of what the book is about and how it is presented. Oy vey.

Well here are some other "established men of God" with something to say about Tom Horn:

http://fanaticforjesus.blogspot.com/2012/09/tom-horn-leading-blind-gullible.html (http://fanaticforjesus.blogspot.com/2012/09/tom-horn-leading-blind-gullible.html)

http://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpress/apollyon-is-not-rising-in-2012-you-are-being-hornswoggled.html (http://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpress/apollyon-is-not-rising-in-2012-you-are-being-hornswoggled.html)

http://www.examiner.com/article/tom-horn-profiting-from-false-prophecy (http://www.examiner.com/article/tom-horn-profiting-from-false-prophecy)

Sure, whatever your silly little blogs say. Just remember, when the Vatican claims to have found intelligent life, it's time to leave.

Just to be clear, Tom did not ever asset that Jesus was a hybrid human. He was simply making a wild guess of what the Vatican might come up with when they claim to have made contact with other intelligent life. They will have a problem with the actual Jesus at that time because it will open up a huge can of worms. They will come up with some elaborate lie that millions of people will believe, that is for sure. They are very good at that.

Sorry, but established dogma make that impossible.  Tom not only makes stuff up, but he has little understanding of how the Catholic Church operates with regard to established dogma.

The nature of Jesus Christ has been solidly established in dogma as being both God (divine) and man.  That goes back to the time when the Church defined the dogma of the hypostatic union in 431.  No future "revelation" can change that fact, and it is beyond naive to believe otherwise.  Once a dogma is established, no person on Earth can change it, not even the Pope nor the Magisterium.

I'll leave you to your knavish dollar chasers though, you seem happy enough believing silly things.

You are totally correct dear Catholica, just some have a total hatred that blinds them to truly look into the facts that the Catholic Church claims.

I was raised in the RCC and am very well schooled in what they claim.

I was not raised as a Catholic and was taught to hate them and was spun a hole lot of lies, I found out such were all lies and I wanted to attack them, so I looked into what they claim and found out that my protestant religion was guilty of so much slander against the RCC that I was shocked, not to mention when I walked about the Roman Catholics I found that such people were into what the Protestants said the Roman Catholics were into.

What the RCC teachers from the top does not go out to the Churches that are under it's guidance, but there is another movement or mob that rejects most of what the top and the Pope's say and live in ignorance.

I suppose it's the same with all religions as well, as when I was in the Lutheran Church I came against the same ignorant types that did not follow the leadership, but then again the ones that did had to leave in disgust of what their Church was becoming, and the same is so of my C of E good faithful people have left in droves.

Satan is at work doing his best and the true Christians have become lost to a new satanic Political Correct god that most totally love full on. (mans works)
No one can stand up to them lot because they use PC to push their way around and they do it with so much vengeance but cunning as Satan.

I know how lovely Satan can make himself out to be, but he leads all astray and the problem is people just don't comprehend just how cunning Satan works are.

Blind faith is worthless, one must comprehend Original Sin.

Ah, well that explains it. Protestantism is just an offshoot of Catholicism. I am neither.
When I was in the Catholic church, I was taught to hate Christians.

By the way, original sin is not a Scriptural teaching. It is a fabrication of the RCC which lends to the complete distortion of the true richness of the sacrifice of Christ which the RCC rejects.

What ! are you rejecting original sin  ::eek::
Rom 5:12. 7:23 !!!.
1 Cor 15:21-22.
Eph 2:3.
Joh 3:5.

If it's not Catholic it's not Christian and that's a fact, the problem is people do not truly know or comprehend what the word Catholic means.
Protestants are Catholic as well that's true.
I can't see how one truly can claim not to be Catholic and be a Christian.

Catholic means universal ? and this is one of the four marks of the Church, the very essence is about a society Christ organised applying the fruits for all mankind, Mat 28:19.
Mark 16:15.
John 10:16.

: Hexalpa  Thu Jan 28, 2016 - 02:57:35

: His Kid  Tue Jan 26, 2016 - 17:08:00

: Hexalpa  Tue Jan 26, 2016 - 16:57:23

: His Kid  Tue Jan 26, 2016 - 07:19:30

: Hexalpa  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 22:06:57

: Catholica  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 14:14:51

: His Kid  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 13:58:31

: Catholica  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 13:01:09

: His Kid  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 11:37:05

: Catholica  Mon Jan 25, 2016 - 11:28:53

: His Kid  Sun Jan 24, 2016 - 09:28:38

: Catholica  Sun Jan 24, 2016 - 06:39:34
I've already established that The authors of that book are charlatans. Name one other source that suggests the same.

You established those awesome Christian men as charlatans? That's funny.

That you think its funny is fairly disturbing. 

One of the authors contacted the director at the VATT, took his replies to those emails and completely twisted and distorted what he wrote, and published that into the book.

Here is the link that you must not have read.

http://brotherguy.livejournal.com/74394.html (http://brotherguy.livejournal.com/74394.html)

And the link to Tom Horn et. al established here:

http://barthsnotes.com/2013/05/01/vatican-astronomer-claims-thomas-horn-twisted-misquoted-his-words-invented-utter-falsehoods/ (http://barthsnotes.com/2013/05/01/vatican-astronomer-claims-thomas-horn-twisted-misquoted-his-words-invented-utter-falsehoods/)

I think it's funny that you think you have established these men of God as charlatans. There was no twisting of words or falsehoods. It is an utter lack of comprehension of what the book is about and how it is presented. Oy vey.

Well here are some other "established men of God" with something to say about Tom Horn:

http://fanaticforjesus.blogspot.com/2012/09/tom-horn-leading-blind-gullible.html (http://fanaticforjesus.blogspot.com/2012/09/tom-horn-leading-blind-gullible.html)

http://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpress/apollyon-is-not-rising-in-2012-you-are-being-hornswoggled.html (http://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpress/apollyon-is-not-rising-in-2012-you-are-being-hornswoggled.html)

http://www.examiner.com/article/tom-horn-profiting-from-false-prophecy (http://www.examiner.com/article/tom-horn-profiting-from-false-prophecy)

Sure, whatever your silly little blogs say. Just remember, when the Vatican claims to have found intelligent life, it's time to leave.

Just to be clear, Tom did not ever asset that Jesus was a hybrid human. He was simply making a wild guess of what the Vatican might come up with when they claim to have made contact with other intelligent life. They will have a problem with the actual Jesus at that time because it will open up a huge can of worms. They will come up with some elaborate lie that millions of people will believe, that is for sure. They are very good at that.

Sorry, but established dogma make that impossible.  Tom not only makes stuff up, but he has little understanding of how the Catholic Church operates with regard to established dogma.

The nature of Jesus Christ has been solidly established in dogma as being both God (divine) and man.  That goes back to the time when the Church defined the dogma of the hypostatic union in 431.  No future "revelation" can change that fact, and it is beyond naive to believe otherwise.  Once a dogma is established, no person on Earth can change it, not even the Pope nor the Magisterium.

I'll leave you to your knavish dollar chasers though, you seem happy enough believing silly things.

You are totally correct dear Catholica, just some have a total hatred that blinds them to truly look into the facts that the Catholic Church claims.

I was raised in the RCC and am very well schooled in what they claim.

I was not raised as a Catholic and was taught to hate them and was spun a hole lot of lies, I found out such were all lies and I wanted to attack them, so I looked into what they claim and found out that my protestant religion was guilty of so much slander against the RCC that I was shocked, not to mention when I walked about the Roman Catholics I found that such people were into what the Protestants said the Roman Catholics were into.

What the RCC teachers from the top does not go out to the Churches that are under it's guidance, but there is another movement or mob that rejects most of what the top and the Pope's say and live in ignorance.

I suppose it's the same with all religions as well, as when I was in the Lutheran Church I came against the same ignorant types that did not follow the leadership, but then again the ones that did had to leave in disgust of what their Church was becoming, and the same is so of my C of E good faithful people have left in droves.

Satan is at work doing his best and the true Christians have become lost to a new satanic Political Correct god that most totally love full on. (mans works)
No one can stand up to them lot because they use PC to push their way around and they do it with so much vengeance but cunning as Satan.

I know how lovely Satan can make himself out to be, but he leads all astray and the problem is people just don't comprehend just how cunning Satan works are.

Blind faith is worthless, one must comprehend Original Sin.

Ah, well that explains it. Protestantism is just an offshoot of Catholicism. I am neither.
When I was in the Catholic church, I was taught to hate Christians.

By the way, original sin is not a Scriptural teaching. It is a fabrication of the RCC which lends to the complete distortion of the true richness of the sacrifice of Christ which the RCC rejects.

What ! are you rejecting original sin  ::eek::
Rom 5:12. 7:23 !!!.
1 Cor 15:21-22.
Eph 2:3.
Joh 3:5.

If it's not Catholic it's not Christian and that's a fact, the problem is people do not truly know or comprehend what the word Catholic means.
Protestants are Catholic as well that's true.
I can't see how one truly can claim not to be Catholic and be a Christian.

Catholic means universal ? and this is one of the four marks of the Church, the very essence is about a society Christ organised applying the fruits for all mankind, Mat 28:19.
Mark 16:15.
John 10:16.

The RCC teaches that 'original sin' is a stain. lol 
A little research would do you a lot of good.

Yes it is a Stain, in that the stain is on you, one can not remove it.

Original sin is about sin, it's not about that sin is defined as being a stain. ::giggle::

If it's not Catholic, it's not Christian?

I am not Catholic at all, in any way fashion or form.  I have been for 35 years a born again, Spirit filled child of the Living God, saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone. 

Nothing Catholic about it. 

You also gave NO scripture back up for your nonsense statement.  There is no reality in it.

: His Kid  Tue Jan 26, 2016 - 17:08:00
By the way, original sin is not a Scriptural teaching. It is a fabrication of the RCC which lends to the complete distortion of the true richness of the sacrifice of Christ which the RCC rejects.

Without original sin there would have no need for Christ's sacrifice.

Rom 5:
12 Therefore as sin came into the world through one man [Adam] and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned
13 sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's [Adam] trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift in the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
16 And the free gift is not like the effect of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass [Adam's] brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brings justification.
17 If, because of one man's [Adam] trespass, death reigned through that one man [Adam], much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
18 Then as one man's [Adam] trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's [Jesus] act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men.
19 For as by one man's [Adam] disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's [Jesus] obedience many will be made righteous.

: winsome  Fri Jan 29, 2016 - 06:26:00

: His Kid  Tue Jan 26, 2016 - 17:08:00
By the way, original sin is not a Scriptural teaching. It is a fabrication of the RCC which lends to the complete distortion of the true richness of the sacrifice of Christ which the RCC rejects.

Without original sin there would have no need for Christ's sacrifice.

Rom 5:
12 Therefore as sin came into the world through one man [Adam] and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned
13 sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's [Adam] trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift in the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
16 And the free gift is not like the effect of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass [Adam's] brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brings justification.
17 If, because of one man's [Adam] trespass, death reigned through that one man [Adam], much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
18 Then as one man's [Adam] trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's [Jesus] act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men.
19 For as by one man's [Adam] disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's [Jesus] obedience many will be made righteous.

Correction: Without the fall of man we would have no need for Jesus' sacrifice. The RCC teaches that original sin is merely a stain upon your soul and infant baptism washes away that stain. The RCC does not teach that you are a sinner and that Jesus died for your personal sins.

: Hexalpa  Thu Jan 28, 2016 - 16:41:40
Yes it is a Stain, in that the stain is on you, one can not remove it.

Original sin is about sin, it's not about that sin is defined as being a stain. ::giggle::

Sin is not a stain. You are a sinner, period. The RCC teaches that it is a stain that is washed away when you are baptized into the RCC. This is the unfortunate reality for Catholics. They are not taught the Scriptural truth that they are sinners and never understand they must repent to be saved. They just go to confession, which does nothing if you have not repented to begin with.

: His Kid  Fri Jan 29, 2016 - 07:35:46

: winsome  Fri Jan 29, 2016 - 06:26:00

: His Kid  Tue Jan 26, 2016 - 17:08:00
By the way, original sin is not a Scriptural teaching. It is a fabrication of the RCC which lends to the complete distortion of the true richness of the sacrifice of Christ which the RCC rejects.

Without original sin there would have no need for Christ's sacrifice.

Rom 5:
12 Therefore as sin came into the world through one man [Adam] and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned
13 sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's [Adam] trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift in the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
16 And the free gift is not like the effect of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass [Adam's] brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brings justification.
17 If, because of one man's [Adam] trespass, death reigned through that one man [Adam], much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
18 Then as one man's [Adam] trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's [Jesus] act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men.
19 For as by one man's [Adam] disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's [Jesus] obedience many will be made righteous.

Correction: Without the fall of man we would have no need for Jesus' sacrifice. The RCC teaches that original sin is merely a stain upon your soul and infant baptism washes away that stain. The RCC does not teach that you are a sinner and that Jesus died for your personal sins.

Ignorant Protestant tells Catholics what the Catholic Church teaches!  ::frustrated::

: His Kid  Fri Jan 29, 2016 - 07:37:11

: Hexalpa  Thu Jan 28, 2016 - 16:41:40
Yes it is a Stain, in that the stain is on you, one can not remove it.

Original sin is about sin, it's not about that sin is defined as being a stain. ::giggle::

Sin is not a stain. You are a sinner, period. The RCC teaches that it is a stain that is washed away when you are baptized into the RCC. This is the unfortunate reality for Catholics. They are not taught the Scriptural truth that they are sinners and never understand they must repent to be saved. They just go to confession, which does nothing if you have not repented to begin with.

Ignorant Protestant tells Catholics what the Catholic Church teaches!  (http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/Smileys/default/banghead_smiley.gif)

: winsome  Fri Jan 29, 2016 - 07:59:54

: His Kid  Fri Jan 29, 2016 - 07:37:11

: Hexalpa  Thu Jan 28, 2016 - 16:41:40
Yes it is a Stain, in that the stain is on you, one can not remove it.

Original sin is about sin, it's not about that sin is defined as being a stain. ::giggle::

Sin is not a stain. You are a sinner, period. The RCC teaches that it is a stain that is washed away when you are baptized into the RCC. This is the unfortunate reality for Catholics. They are not taught the Scriptural truth that they are sinners and never understand they must repent to be saved. They just go to confession, which does nothing if you have not repented to begin with.

Ignorant Protestant tells Catholics what the Catholic Church teaches!  (http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/Smileys/default/banghead_smiley.gif)

I am not a Protestant. I am a born-again Christian who was born and raised in the Catholic church and attended a Catholic school for eight years.

: His Kid  Fri Jan 29, 2016 - 08:04:44

: winsome  Fri Jan 29, 2016 - 07:59:54

: His Kid  Fri Jan 29, 2016 - 07:37:11

: Hexalpa  Thu Jan 28, 2016 - 16:41:40
Yes it is a Stain, in that the stain is on you, one can not remove it.

Original sin is about sin, it's not about that sin is defined as being a stain. ::giggle::

Sin is not a stain. You are a sinner, period. The RCC teaches that it is a stain that is washed away when you are baptized into the RCC. This is the unfortunate reality for Catholics. They are not taught the Scriptural truth that they are sinners and never understand they must repent to be saved. They just go to confession, which does nothing if you have not repented to begin with.

Ignorant Protestant tells Catholics what the Catholic Church teaches!  (http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/Smileys/default/banghead_smiley.gif)

I am not a Protestant. I am a born-again Christian who was born and raised in the Catholic church and attended a Catholic school for eight years.

If you are not a Catholic and not an Orthodox then you are a Protestant.

As to attending a Catholic school for eight years it does not seem to have profited you much.

Original Sin
The Catechism of the Catholic Church deals extensively with this in terms of the fall of man (para 396 – 412), The In Brief summary says:
416 By his sin Adam, as the first man, lost the original holiness and justice he had received from God, not only for himself but for all human beings.
417 Adam and Eve transmitted to their descendants human nature wounded by their own first sin and hence deprived of original holiness and justice; this deprivation is called "original sin".
418 As a result of original sin, human nature is weakened in its powers, subject to ignorance, suffering and the domination of death, and inclined to sin (this inclination is called "concupiscence").

Repentance
In the section of the catechism that deals with Confession it says (again from the In Brief section to keep it simple):         
1490 The movement of return to God, called conversion and repentance, entails sorrow for and abhorrence of sins committed, and the firm purpose of sinning no more in the future. Conversion touches the past and the future and is nourished by hope in God's mercy.
1491 The sacrament of Penance is a whole consisting in three actions of the penitent and the priest's absolution. the penitent's acts are repentance, confession or disclosure of sins to the priest, and the intention to make reparation and do works of reparation.
1492 Repentance (also called contrition) must be inspired by motives that arise from faith. If repentance arises from love of charity for God, it is called "perfect" contrition; if it is founded on other motives, it is called "imperfect."

If you are not a Catholic and not an Orthodox then you are a Protestant.

No, I'm not. Sorry, your religion doesn't get to define me. The privilege belongs to God alone. The arrogance of the RCC never ceases to amaze me.

: His Kid  Fri Jan 29, 2016 - 08:41:51

If you are not a Catholic and not an Orthodox then you are a Protestant.

No, I'm not. Sorry, your religion doesn't get to define me. The privilege belongs to God alone. The arrogance of the RCC never ceases to amaze me.

Well the ignorance of Protestants who think they know what the Catholic Church teaches when they have just had a few years schooling never ceases to amaze me.

And I'm not RCC! I belong to the Catholic Church. RCC is your religion's definition.

: winsome  Fri Jan 29, 2016 - 08:55:14

: His Kid  Fri Jan 29, 2016 - 08:41:51

If you are not a Catholic and not an Orthodox then you are a Protestant.

No, I'm not. Sorry, your religion doesn't get to define me. The privilege belongs to God alone. The arrogance of the RCC never ceases to amaze me.

Well the ignorance of Protestants who think they know what the Catholic Church teaches when they have just had a few years schooling never ceases to amaze me.

And I'm not RCC! I belong to the Catholic Church. RCC is your religion's definition.

That is incorrect.
The term "Roman Church", "Roman Catholic Church" or "Holy Roman Church" originates and was defined over 1600 years ago, more than 1000 years before "our religion" even started.

: winsome  Fri Jan 29, 2016 - 08:55:14

: His Kid  Fri Jan 29, 2016 - 08:41:51

If you are not a Catholic and not an Orthodox then you are a Protestant.

No, I'm not. Sorry, your religion doesn't get to define me. The privilege belongs to God alone. The arrogance of the RCC never ceases to amaze me.

Well the ignorance of Protestants who think they know what the Catholic Church teaches when they have just had a few years schooling never ceases to amaze me.

And I'm not RCC! I belong to the Catholic Church. RCC is your religion's definition.

And I am of Jesus Christ and only he defines me.  There is no Catholic or protestant in Gods kingdom 

And by the way the statement we don't need the Holy Spirit, we have the scriptures comes from ignorance.  Is that what the Catholic church teaches?   

: AVZ  Fri Jan 29, 2016 - 09:18:29

: winsome  Fri Jan 29, 2016 - 08:55:14

: His Kid  Fri Jan 29, 2016 - 08:41:51

If you are not a Catholic and not an Orthodox then you are a Protestant.

No, I'm not. Sorry, your religion doesn't get to define me. The privilege belongs to God alone. The arrogance of the RCC never ceases to amaze me.

Well the ignorance of Protestants who think they know what the Catholic Church teaches when they have just had a few years schooling never ceases to amaze me.

And I'm not RCC! I belong to the Catholic Church. RCC is your religion's definition.

That is incorrect.
The term "Roman Church", "Roman Catholic Church" or "Holy Roman Church" originates and was defined over 1600 years ago, more than 1000 years before "our religion" even started.

That should tell you something. Its curious to me that as years pass, man seems to tweak his religion to fit his needs better.  Sometimes I wonder what another 1000 years will bring.. Hopefully Jesus will remain at center stage

: AVZ  Fri Jan 29, 2016 - 09:18:29

: winsome  Fri Jan 29, 2016 - 08:55:14

: His Kid  Fri Jan 29, 2016 - 08:41:51

If you are not a Catholic and not an Orthodox then you are a Protestant.

No, I'm not. Sorry, your religion doesn't get to define me. The privilege belongs to God alone. The arrogance of the RCC never ceases to amaze me.

Well the ignorance of Protestants who think they know what the Catholic Church teaches when they have just had a few years schooling never ceases to amaze me.

And I'm not RCC! I belong to the Catholic Church. RCC is your religion's definition.

That is incorrect.
The term "Roman Church", "Roman Catholic Church" or "Holy Roman Church" originates and was defined over 1600 years ago, more than 1000 years before "our religion" even started.

At least we agree that your religion (Protestantism) only started a few hundred years ago rather than being founded by Jesus Christ like the the Catholic Church.

: AVZ  Fri Jan 29, 2016 - 09:18:29

: winsome  Fri Jan 29, 2016 - 08:55:14

: His Kid  Fri Jan 29, 2016 - 08:41:51

If you are not a Catholic and not an Orthodox then you are a Protestant.

No, I'm not. Sorry, your religion doesn't get to define me. The privilege belongs to God alone. The arrogance of the RCC never ceases to amaze me.

Well the ignorance of Protestants who think they know what the Catholic Church teaches when they have just had a few years schooling never ceases to amaze me.

And I'm not RCC! I belong to the Catholic Church. RCC is your religion's definition.

That is incorrect.
The term "Roman Church", "Roman Catholic Church" or "Holy Roman Church" originates and was defined over 1600 years ago, more than 1000 years before "our religion" even started.

No it wasn't.  The Catholic Church still to this day doesn't refer to herself as the Roman Catholic Church, and English is the only language in which this terminology is used, and typically not by Catholics.

The origin of the term comes from the Anglican church, which didn't exist until that adulterer and murderer Henry VIII founded it.

The following important observations were made in 1851:


•We cannot allow that every private Priest or member of the Church of Rome
should give his own opinions merely as the standard of doctrine.
We will have recourse to the oracular response of the Church,
and insist that they be represented by themselves; not, however,
by private individuals, but by their legal representatives




But, then, there is nothing which they dread so much as the testimony of their own Church. ...
IT IS A PRINCIPAL AIM OF ALL [ROMAN CATHOLIC] CONTROVERTISTS TO EMPLOY
EVERY MODE OF EVASION IN ORDER TO DISCONCERT THEIR OPPOSERS.
There is even a marked difference  between the tone of these Romish Divines
::bowing::  ::preachit:: who speak dogmatically for the instruction of their own members  ::bowing:: ::preachit::
and that of those who attempt to answer the objections of their antagonists.
With the former, all is matter of downright certainty;
with the latter, all is doubt, difficulty, subterfuge, and evasion .

When the faithful are to be instructed, every Priest becomes the sure depositary
of the infallible decisions of an infallible Church;

but when Protestants are to be confuted,
the declarations of their most illustrious men are of no authority.
Councils are discovered to have been but partly approved
Popes did not speak ex cathedra;
Cardinals and Bishops are but private Doctors;
And who cares for the opinion of an obscure Priest or Friar?

Thus nothing is so difficult as to know what the belief of Roman Catholics really is; and
WHEN A PROTESTANT ADDUCES THEIR OWN WRITERS AS WITNESSES,
HE IS FREQUENTLY TOLD THAT HE {The Catholic Writter} IS A MISREPRESENTER OF THEIR CHURCH

(Charles Elliott, Delineation of Roman Catholicism, London: John Mason, 1851, p. 23).

: Jsta Babbler  Fri Jan 29, 2016 - 09:39:20

Thus nothing is so difficult as to know what the belief of Roman Catholics really is; and

Actually it's not difficilt at all. There are authoritive documents (such as the Catechism of the Cathollic Church) and the dogmatic statements of Councils and Popes. The problem is that Protestants prefer anecdotal stuff from someone who once went to a Catholic school or was an altar boy 50 years ago, and false claims made on Protestants web sites.

: Jsta Babbler  Fri Jan 29, 2016 - 09:39:20
The following important observations were made in 1851:


•We cannot allow that every private Priest or member of the Church of Rome
should give his own opinions merely as the standard of doctrine.
We will have recourse to the oracular response of the Church,
and insist that they be represented by themselves; not, however,
by private individuals, but by their legal representatives




But, then, there is nothing which they dread so much as the testimony of their own Church. ...
IT IS A PRINCIPAL AIM OF ALL [ROMAN CATHOLIC] CONTROVERTISTS TO EMPLOY
EVERY MODE OF EVASION IN ORDER TO DISCONCERT THEIR OPPOSERS.
There is even a marked difference  between the tone of these Romish Divines
::bowing::  ::preachit:: who speak dogmatically for the instruction of their own members  ::bowing:: ::preachit::
and that of those who attempt to answer the objections of their antagonists.
With the former, all is matter of downright certainty;
with the latter, all is doubt, difficulty, subterfuge, and evasion .

When the faithful are to be instructed, every Priest becomes the sure depositary
of the infallible decisions of an infallible Church;

but when Protestants are to be confuted,
the declarations of their most illustrious men are of no authority.
Councils are discovered to have been but partly approved
Popes did not speak ex cathedra;
Cardinals and Bishops are but private Doctors;
And who cares for the opinion of an obscure Priest or Friar?

Thus nothing is so difficult as to know what the belief of Roman Catholics really is; and
WHEN A PROTESTANT ADDUCES THEIR OWN WRITERS AS WITNESSES,
HE IS FREQUENTLY TOLD THAT HE {The Catholic Writter} IS A MISREPRESENTER OF THEIR CHURCH

(Charles Elliott, Delineation of Roman Catholicism, London: John Mason, 1851, p. 23).

Except that we have these handy little documents called "The Catechism of the Council of Trent" (which existed at the time of this writing) and now "The Catechism of the Catholic Church" as well as easy access to the decrees of all the ecumenical councils right at our fingertips as well as the text of the two ex cathedra declarations.

These are sure sources to go to even if a priest or bishop should teach this or that in error.

: Catholica  Fri Jan 29, 2016 - 09:34:42

: AVZ  Fri Jan 29, 2016 - 09:18:29

: winsome  Fri Jan 29, 2016 - 08:55:14

: His Kid  Fri Jan 29, 2016 - 08:41:51

If you are not a Catholic and not an Orthodox then you are a Protestant.

No, I'm not. Sorry, your religion doesn't get to define me. The privilege belongs to God alone. The arrogance of the RCC never ceases to amaze me.

Well the ignorance of Protestants who think they know what the Catholic Church teaches when they have just had a few years schooling never ceases to amaze me.

And I'm not RCC! I belong to the Catholic Church. RCC is your religion's definition.

That is incorrect.
The term "Roman Church", "Roman Catholic Church" or "Holy Roman Church" originates and was defined over 1600 years ago, more than 1000 years before "our religion" even started.

No it wasn't.  The Catholic Church still to this day doesn't refer to herself as the Roman Catholic Church, and English is the only language in which this terminology is used, and typically not by Catholics.

The origin of the term comes from the Anglican church, which didn't exist until that adulterer and murderer Henry VIII founded it.

Who uses the term "Roman Catholic" or who doesn't is not relevant.
Winsome asserts that the term was defined by Protestants, which is incorrect. The term "Roman Catholics" or "Roman Catholic Christians" was defined in the 4th century, pointing to those who were following the Latin Rite and See in Rome.

I know it is a very popular thought under Catholics to say that the term was invented at the time of the Reformation and meant to be an insult.
Similarly Protestants say their name was given in an attempt to insult by Catholics.
Both claims are ridiculous and it really makes no sense to whine over such trivial matters.

: winsome  Fri Jan 29, 2016 - 09:32:46

: AVZ  Fri Jan 29, 2016 - 09:18:29

: winsome  Fri Jan 29, 2016 - 08:55:14

: His Kid  Fri Jan 29, 2016 - 08:41:51

If you are not a Catholic and not an Orthodox then you are a Protestant.

No, I'm not. Sorry, your religion doesn't get to define me. The privilege belongs to God alone. The arrogance of the RCC never ceases to amaze me.

Well the ignorance of Protestants who think they know what the Catholic Church teaches when they have just had a few years schooling never ceases to amaze me.

And I'm not RCC! I belong to the Catholic Church. RCC is your religion's definition.

That is incorrect.
The term "Roman Church", "Roman Catholic Church" or "Holy Roman Church" originates and was defined over 1600 years ago, more than 1000 years before "our religion" even started.

At least we agree that your religion (Protestantism) only started a few hundred years ago rather than being founded by Jesus Christ like the the Catholic Church.

Who really gives a sniff how old a term is or when a term was defined.
You want the age of a definition to be an indicator of its validity?

Here I got two for you:
1) Papal Infallibility -> defined in 1870
2) Assumption of Mary -> defined in 1950

Let me be more clear about the term Catholic as applied to the church.

The original Christian church became known at the Catholic Church.  Catholic originally did not mean universal (the Greek word for that is ecumenical).  It roughly translates into completeness or wholeness.   

Evidence.  First appearance in writing  Ignatious

"Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful to baptize or give communion without the consent of the bishop. "

You got the bishop's approval, you got the people gathered -  What do you have?  universality, no,  you have completeness.

In those days there were not one but five patriarchates, one of whom was from Rome.  Therefore, the Roman Catholic becomes someone in the Catholic church (under the five patriarchates) who is under Rome.

It was the Catholic Church and the Orthodox (right teaching, right worship) faith.  The church splits at 450 when the Coptic Church leaves and the remaining three are the Orthodox Church which splits in 1050.   Therefore, the only church left is the RCC that uses the term Catholic in its title.

: AVZ  Fri Jan 29, 2016 - 10:09:37
The term "Roman Catholics" or "Roman Catholic Christians" was defined in the 4th century, pointing to those who were following the Latin Rite and See in Rome.

Evidence please.

Ignorant Protestant tells Catholics what the Catholic Church teaches! ::frustrated::

Oh stop with your childish name calling.  Anyone who can read can look up what the CC or any church teaches.  Just because someone is not Catholic, it does not mean they cannot find information.

My husband was raised in the Catholic Church and left as an adult by his own choice.  He is not a Catholic. Do you suppose to say he does not know what they teach?  Just give it a rest. 

At least we agree that your religion (Protestantism) only started a few hundred years ago rather than being founded by Jesus Christ like the the Catholic Church.

I personally think this comment is an insult to believers and should be a violation of the rules of this site.  I'm tired of you saying it.

1. This is a Protestant site.
2.  Jesus called all people to believe and be saved.  Not practice a religion or to judge others who didn't do it their way.  All of the Apostles taught differently and none of them called anyone to what you claim.  It's nonsense. It's childish and there is nothing Christian about such comments.  Protestants are believers in Jesus Christ who died for our sins. We are his people, His church, awaiting His return for us.  We will dwell with Him forever and none of your silly insulting Catechism dribble will change that.

Get over yourself.  None of you act or talk like Jesus. You all wrap yourselves in religiousness that doesn't look anything like Him.  It's so sad.

: Catholica  Fri Jan 29, 2016 - 09:34:42

: AVZ  Fri Jan 29, 2016 - 09:18:29

: winsome  Fri Jan 29, 2016 - 08:55:14

: His Kid  Fri Jan 29, 2016 - 08:41:51

If you are not a Catholic and not an Orthodox then you are a Protestant.

No, I'm not. Sorry, your religion doesn't get to define me. The privilege belongs to God alone. The arrogance of the RCC never ceases to amaze me.

Well the ignorance of Protestants who think they know what the Catholic Church teaches when they have just had a few years schooling never ceases to amaze me.

And I'm not RCC! I belong to the Catholic Church. RCC is your religion's definition.

That is incorrect.
The term "Roman Church", "Roman Catholic Church" or "Holy Roman Church" originates and was defined over 1600 years ago, more than 1000 years before "our religion" even started.

No it wasn't.  The Catholic Church still to this day doesn't refer to herself as the Roman Catholic Church, and English is the only language in which this terminology is used, and typically not by Catholics.

I must correct this .

Pope Pius XI in his encyclical letter DIVINI ILLIUS MAGISTRI wrote : " In the City of God, the Holy Roman Catholic Church, a good citizen and an upright man are absolutely one and the same thing. "

Pope Pius XII in his encyclical letter HUMANI GENERIS wrote : " The Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing. "

And there are other instances where Popes have referred to the Catholic Church as the Roman Catholic Church .

I post this simply for accuracy and fairness .

: winsome  Fri Jan 29, 2016 - 08:55:14

: His Kid  Fri Jan 29, 2016 - 08:41:51

If you are not a Catholic and not an Orthodox then you are a Protestant.

No, I'm not. Sorry, your religion doesn't get to define me. The privilege belongs to God alone. The arrogance of the RCC never ceases to amaze me.

Well the ignorance of Protestants who think they know what the Catholic Church teaches when they have just had a few years schooling never ceases to amaze me.

And I'm not RCC! I belong to the Catholic Church. RCC is your religion's definition.

Well maybe you should argue with Protestants, then. I'm not one of them. I am an x-Catholic, now a born-again Christian, and I know full well what Catholicism teaches. That is precisely THE REASON I LEFT!

Best reason ever.

I think the Catholic Church teaches out of both sides of their face. 

On one hand they say time and time again that no one can leave the Catholic Church and those who have are still Catholic who need to repent.

But, on the other side of their face they say you are a Protestant if you are not Catholic. 

They seem to think they get to do all of the declaring for everyone, inspite of what God has said, or the Word of God has said. 

I declare... they are more confused than those who leave or who never were the Catholic Church.

: His Kid  Fri Jan 29, 2016 - 19:38:36

: winsome  Fri Jan 29, 2016 - 08:55:14

: His Kid  Fri Jan 29, 2016 - 08:41:51

If you are not a Catholic and not an Orthodox then you are a Protestant.

No, I'm not. Sorry, your religion doesn't get to define me. The privilege belongs to God alone. The arrogance of the RCC never ceases to amaze me.

Well the ignorance of Protestants who think they know what the Catholic Church teaches when they have just had a few years schooling never ceases to amaze me.

And I'm not RCC! I belong to the Catholic Church. RCC is your religion's definition.

Well maybe you should argue with Protestants, then. I'm not one of them. I am an x-Catholic, now a born-again Christian, and I know full well what Catholicism teaches. That is precisely THE REASON I LEFT!

As I clearly showed earlier you do NOT know whjat the Catholic Church teaches.

I'm a born again Christian also. All Catholics are.

: kensington  Fri Jan 29, 2016 - 14:47:41
Anyone who can read can look up what the CC or any church teaches.  Just because someone is not Catholic, it does not mean they cannot find information. 

Of course they can find out. That is the point I was making earlier. The problem is they don't.

: chosenone  Tue Nov 17, 2015 - 11:03:31
Well being that we all have the HS inside us if we are believers, God clearly thinks differently.

a gross mistake error and confusion and division and diabolical nonsense being attributed to the Holy Spirit via claimed false inspiration imho if this is not blasphemy what is - see Jn.14:17 - wincam

: mclees8  Fri Jan 29, 2016 - 09:21:30

: winsome  Fri Jan 29, 2016 - 08:55:14

: His Kid  Fri Jan 29, 2016 - 08:41:51

If you are not a Catholic and not an Orthodox then you are a Protestant.

No, I'm not. Sorry, your religion doesn't get to define me. The privilege belongs to God alone. The arrogance of the RCC never ceases to amaze me.

Well the ignorance of Protestants who think they know what the Catholic Church teaches when they have just had a few years schooling never ceases to amaze me.

And I'm not RCC! I belong to the Catholic Church. RCC is your religion's definition.

And I am of Jesus Christ and only he defines me.  There is no Catholic or protestant in Gods kingdom 

And by the way the statement we don't need the Holy Spirit, we have the scriptures comes from ignorance.  Is that what the Catholic church teaches?

actually the statement is more or less correct and more more than less - we do need the Holy Spirit but not in the way shape and form we are being asked and even forced to accept as blasphemy that He glibly has and still inspires all and sundry but not just one individual and is therefore the cause and instigator of wide spread way out, weird and wacky division and confusion ad infinitum and ad absurdum - wincam

No holy ghost needed - we have scriptures = Political Correctness. ::announcment::
The works of man will never cut it, their are three in one the Farther the Son and the Holy Ghost.
Without the Holy Ghost their is nothing but the works of man.

not at all at all for Scriptures are the work of the Holy Spirit, adding or subtracting nothing  but bringing to mind and remembrance and memory all that Jesus said[Jn.14:26] - wincam

next time you suddenly remember a passage remember the indwelling holy spirit brought it up...

: l.a.providence  Tue May 10, 2016 - 22:44:36
next time you suddenly remember a passage remember the indwelling holy spirit brought it up...

not at all - that is the problem not the solution - all and sundry claiming inspiration by the Holy Spirit  indwelling resulting in chaos, confusion, division, divergence, contradictions etc and all becoming attributable to the indwelling Holy Spirit = blasphemy  - wincam

praying!