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Hi, I'm Covkeeper34. Yes, I am an ex-Christian. I was one for almost 20yrs. I do love Christians still because I was one but the Christian religion, I had to depart from it. Yes, the Son of David is still Lord. Yes, the Bible is the Truth. But being and avid reader of my Bible since I was 10yrs old, I know that  "Westernized Christianity" isn't the same as what we read in the Bible.

I'd like to have a friendly talk with only strong Christians who know their Bibles well because I know mine very well and in my experience, talking to Christians who do not know theirs well is like an adult trying to have an adult conversation with an immature kid who thinks they know it all in their limited experience.

I'd like to speak with only teachable and humble disciples who know and acknowledge that they do not have all the pieces to the puzzle as I acknowledge the same. I am teachable and not above correction but I ask that you do keep in mind that I know my Bible very well. You will see that I am able to explain my reasonings on the level that even a child can understand.

So please, will you come chat with me about some things?

So Jesus is Lord and you believe the Bible, yet you say you are an ex Christian. I cant see how those 2 things can marry.
What you think of Christianity now compared to the early days is irrelevant surely to your own faith and belief.

Speaking for myself I am a Christian and proud to be one, and I love the church and I love my many Christian friends and brothers and sisters who are doing their best in a world that is slowly going down hill to follow the Lord and saviour. WE are all fallible and weak human beings, so no church assembly will ever be perfect, but God loves us anyway. God loves his church, His body on earth, and Jesus is coming back for his bride, the community of believers, His church.
So with respect, whatever you may think of the church today isnt really relevant, its what God says and thinks that matters.

Also with respect, anyone is allowed to comment here, and how well we do or dont know our Bible means nothing if we dont know the Word of God Himself, Jesus. 

Welcome to this site.

: Covkeeper34  Sun Nov 29, 2015 - 15:02:22
Hi, I'm Covkeeper34. Yes, I am an ex-Christian. I was one for almost 20yrs. I do love Christians still because I was one but the Christian religion, I had to depart from it. Yes, the Son of David is still Lord. Yes, the Bible is the Truth. But being and avid reader of my Bible since I was 10yrs old, I know that  "Westernized Christianity" isn't the same as what we read in the Bible.

I'd like to have a friendly talk with only strong Christians who know their Bibles well because I know mine very well and in my experience, talking to Christians who do not know theirs well is like an adult trying to have an adult conversation with an immature kid who thinks they know it all in their limited experience.

I'd like to speak with only teachable and humble disciples who know and acknowledge that they do not have all the pieces to the puzzle as I acknowledge the same. I am teachable and not above correction but I ask that you do keep in mind that I know my Bible very well. You will see that I am able to explain my reasonings on the level that even a child can understand.

So please, will you come chat with me about some things?

As an ex-Christian, does this mean that you no longer accept Jesus as your  "Savior?"

You do not need to belong to or have any part of any "organized" Christian religion to still be a Christian so you do need to answer the question before we continue.

Also, what things would you like to chat about?

 ::smile::

so, are you, CK34, a guru, a gnostic, a genius, or a goofball?!

the first thing that jumps out to me is your denial of being a "Christian".

maybe you do not like the baggage associated with this word, in your mind, but ...

I do not claim to be a perfect-puzzle-purist, but, I am a "disciple"  (is that word OK, to you?)

looking forward to seeing your input here, on GCCF.

but, I do not care to get into a PM chat.

::eatingpopcorn:

Usually, these kinds of posters are some kind of self realized high prophet or some other type of nonsense.

Thank you global moderator for coming.

Let me say this, please, and I will explain...

I can tell you that you do not have to be a Christian to follow the Messiah. As a former "American Christian", the propaganda of Christianity in America is that you can't be a Follower of Christ unless you do become one--as westernized Christianity defines it. In my study, being a Follower of Christ according to biblical standards, is not synonymous with contemporary Christianity's doctrines. It's not just the beliefs of select Christian denominations, it is the form of Faith believed by most Believers that is in contradiction to what appears to me as 'plainly written'. I am no longer Christian by definition according to the LIFESTYLE in observation to contemporary Christianity. I see that the lifestyle of Christ as written and historically,  is not what is being practiced or taught in Christianity itself nationwide. I will go further into this as the discussion progresses.

I am a Follower of Him and I see that what He instructed the Disciples in, is nothing like the disciples in Christianity today. I'm aligning myself with the form of Faith of Christ and His Disciples. And what I'm pursuing cannot be called Christianity seeing as it stands opposite of what Christianity  teaches as Truth.

How I think about the Church today does in fact matter. It should matter to you as well because you and I should always be in observance of the structural security of the "Building". It's in need of constant maintenance but one must first be mindful and constantly measuring him/herself to see if they are that living form on a personal level. And they will know if they are rightly measuring themselves by the WHOLE Word. is it aligning with the foundation or not; and is resting on a solid foundation? Is this Church the image the Scriptures prescribe it to look like? If Christianity today doesn't appear as the model apparent in Scripture, then Christianity is another building made with a different cornerstone.

For the sake of this discussion, it matters how well you know your Word. If you know little, remain a spectator. If you know much, you can engage me because it let's me know I can speak concerning the Word and you'll have complete familiarity of my references without my having to constantly post Scripture and verse unnecessarily.

And if you have little understanding of the written Word, how much more your understanding of the Living Word--who has revealed Himself through the written?

Relia,

If you read the opening post again, I do acknowledge Christ as Saviour still.

Welcome Covkeeper34.    I am somewhat knowledgeable about scripture, but always still learning and growing.    However, I know that there are alot of scriptures that vary on interpretation according to the person reading them (however correct or incorrect their interpretations are.)    OSAS and pre-trib, post-trib rapture are just a few.   Saying that, I look forward to hearing about your beliefs and what you think the correct interpretations are.

Sallie    ::Christianfish::

: Covkeeper34  Sun Nov 29, 2015 - 17:29:14
Thank you global moderator for coming.

Let me say this, please, and I will explain...

I can tell you that you do not have to be a Christian to follow the Messiah. As a former "American Christian", the propaganda of Christianity in America is that you can't be a Follower of Christ unless you do become one--as westernized Christianity defines it. In my study, being a Follower of Christ according to biblical standards, is not synonymous with contemporary Christianity's doctrines. It's not just the beliefs of select Christian denominations, it is the form of Faith believed by most Believers that is in contradiction to what appears to me as 'plainly written'. I am no longer Christian by definition according to the LIFESTYLE in observation to contemporary Christianity. I see that the lifestyle of Christ as written and historically,  is not what is being practiced or taught in Christianity itself nationwide. I will go further into this as the discussion progresses.

I am a Follower of Him and I see that what He instructed the Disciples in, is nothing like the disciples in Christianity today. I'm aligning myself with the form of Faith of Christ and His Disciples. And what I'm pursuing cannot be called Christianity seeing as it stands opposite of what Christianity  teaches as Truth.

How I think about the Church today does in fact matter. It should matter to you as well because you and I should always be in observance of the structural security of the "Building". It's in need of constant maintenance but one must first be mindful and constantly measuring him/herself to see if they are that living form on a personal level. And they will know if they are rightly measuring themselves by the WHOLE Word. is it aligning with the foundation or not; and is resting on a solid foundation? Is this Church the image the Scriptures prescribe it to look like? If Christianity today doesn't appear as the model apparent in Scripture, then Christianity is another building made with a different cornerstone.

For the sake of this discussion, it matters how well you know your Word. If you know little, remain a spectator. If you know much, you can engage me because it let's me know I can speak concerning the Word and you'll have complete familiarity of my references without my having to constantly post Scripture and verse unnecessarily.

And if you have little understanding of the written Word, how much more your understanding of the Living Word--who has revealed Himself through the written?

You said. ' in my experience, talking to Christians who do not know theirs well is like an adult trying to have an adult conversation with an immature kid who thinks they know it all in their limited experience'

Can you not see how demeaning and offensive and arrogant that is?  ::frown::

The word Christian is merely a word used to identify those of us who have been adopted into Gods family as His children and who follow Him as his disciples, no more and no less. It helps identify us to others in the world, that we are His followers. I am proud to be identified as a CHRISTian, having Christ in the name. However thats not good enough for you, and you don't care to be identified as part of the body of Christ with your spiritual brothers and sisters.   

What comes across to me here, is that you appear to see yourself as somehow 'higher' and more 'spiritual' and more 'knowledgeable' than the rest of us in the body of Christ today. As being 'superior'. You will probably seek to try and get us to agree with you presumably, though your 'great knowledge of the Bible'. As if you have had some sort of 'greater revelation' than us mere mortals. Just a heads up though, we have had many here before who have stopped meeting with other believers and stopped being part of the body of Christ(we are told we must do this remember) and who have gone WAY off track and who claim similar 'revelations'.
 
I dont see what you see in the church today AT ALL, I see Gods loved and adopted children, loving Him, worshipping him, following Him and walking with Him. Of course we are not perfect,  no one is, no church is, but God loves us and uses us anyway to reach out to others.  The world is very different from then, we Christians today face and deal with many different things as well as similar things to back then. God knows this and He equips each of us to do what He wants us to do in the time we live in. 

As for you only wanting to discuss with those who have a similar 'great knowledge of the bible', anyone can give their thoughts and opinions and ideas and beliefs here, no matter if they are new believers or mature ones, if they have just started reading the Bible or have been reading it for many years. Its not really up to you to decide who can make a point, who can talk about what the Bible says, and who can agree or disagree with you.   

: Layceers  Sun Nov 29, 2015 - 19:08:37
Welcome Covkeeper34.    I am somewhat knowledgeable about scripture, but always still learning and growing.    However, I know that there are alot of scriptures that vary on interpretation according to the person reading them (however correct or incorrect their interpretations are.)    OSAS and pre-trib, post-trib rapture are just a few.   Saying that, I look forward to hearing about your beliefs and what you think the correct interpretations are.

Sallie    ::Christianfish::

yes this is a good point, and even if we do disagree about many things, as long as they are not salvation issues it doesnt really matter too much in the end.

Layceers,

You have no idea how happy it makes me to hear that there actually are Christians who know their Bible well, that's a rare thing in that Religion as far as the average layman.

If we dialogue, I know I will upset some of your doctrinal beliefs. Please refrain from the empty insults such as calling me a heretic, a devil, deceived,...etc. I'm quite used to the slander but rest assured, I'm able to back up all I say using Scripture's rules for determining Truth.

As far as interpretations, I'll be reading from the KJV primarily. What I will show you will be plain English and neither of us will be able to excuse what's plainly written. Scripture interprets itself and I will also show how and why there are sadly 20-40,000 different Christian denominations in the world that can't agree on what Paul taught.

I look forward to our discussion.

: Covkeeper34  Sun Nov 29, 2015 - 21:52:53
Layceers,

You have no idea how happy it makes me to hear that there actually are Christians who know their Bible well, that's a rare thing in that Religion as far as the average layman.

If we dialogue, I know I will upset some of your doctrinal beliefs. Please refrain from the empty insults such as calling me a heretic, a devil, deceived,...etc. I'm quite used to the slander but rest assured, I'm able to back up all I say using Scripture's rules for determining Truth.

As far as interpretations, I'll be reading from the KJV primarily. What I will show you will be plain English and neither of us will be able to excuse what's plainly written. Scripture interprets itself and I will also show how and why there are sadly 20-40,000 different Christian denominations in the world that can't agree on what Paul taught.

I look forward to our discussion.

Again, I dont see what you do. I know countless believers who read their bibles a lot and who know them very well. The thing is covenant keeper, you think you are right(as stated when you said that you will 'show us' and that we will not be able to 'excuse what is plainly written', in other words we will all then agree with your take on what is said). Can you not see how arrogant that is?
Everyone else's beliefs and views and opinions are as valid as yours, as remember that you dont have anywhere near all the answers, none of us do.   

If you want an excellent godly, anointed, very intelligent and knowledgeable Bible teacher to learn from, who spoke both greek and hebrew as well as English, listen to Derek Prince. See if your beliefs line up with his.   

: chosenone  Sun Nov 29, 2015 - 22:01:39

: Covkeeper34  Sun Nov 29, 2015 - 21:52:53
Layceers,

You have no idea how happy it makes me to hear that there actually are Christians who know their Bible well, that's a rare thing in that Religion as far as the average layman.

If we dialogue, I know I will upset some of your doctrinal beliefs. Please refrain from the empty insults such as calling me a heretic, a devil, deceived,...etc. I'm quite used to the slander but rest assured, I'm able to back up all I say using Scripture's rules for determining Truth.

As far as interpretations, I'll be reading from the KJV primarily. What I will show you will be plain English and neither of us will be able to excuse what's plainly written. Scripture interprets itself and I will also show how and why there are sadly 20-40,000 different Christian denominations in the world that can't agree on what Paul taught.

I look forward to our discussion.

Again, I dont see what you do. I know countless believers who read their bibles a lot and who know them very well. The thing is covenant keeper, you think you are right(as stated when you said that you will 'show us' and that we will not be able to 'excuse what is plainly written', in other words we will all then agree with your take on what is said). Can you not see how arrogant that is?
Everyone else's beliefs and views and opinions are as valid as yours, as remember that you dont have anywhere near all the answers, none of us do.

So far I have not seen anything arrogant or what I don't agree with.

Maybe he has truth, maybe not.

Let him state his beliefs and if they are contrary to scriptures, then prove

his beliefs wrong with scriptures.

Until then let us not resort to personal character classification.

By the way if you read Paul's writings, he comes across as arrogant,  but of

course he was the great apostle Paul.



I am waiting to see the follows biblical understanding and go from there.

: doorknocker  Sun Nov 29, 2015 - 22:16:02

: chosenone  Sun Nov 29, 2015 - 22:01:39

: Covkeeper34  Sun Nov 29, 2015 - 21:52:53
Layceers,

You have no idea how happy it makes me to hear that there actually are Christians who know their Bible well, that's a rare thing in that Religion as far as the average layman.

If we dialogue, I know I will upset some of your doctrinal beliefs. Please refrain from the empty insults such as calling me a heretic, a devil, deceived,...etc. I'm quite used to the slander but rest assured, I'm able to back up all I say using Scripture's rules for determining Truth.

As far as interpretations, I'll be reading from the KJV primarily. What I will show you will be plain English and neither of us will be able to excuse what's plainly written. Scripture interprets itself and I will also show how and why there are sadly 20-40,000 different Christian denominations in the world that can't agree on what Paul taught.

I look forward to our discussion.

Again, I dont see what you do. I know countless believers who read their bibles a lot and who know them very well. The thing is covenant keeper, you think you are right(as stated when you said that you will 'show us' and that we will not be able to 'excuse what is plainly written', in other words we will all then agree with your take on what is said). Can you not see how arrogant that is?
Everyone else's beliefs and views and opinions are as valid as yours, as remember that you dont have anywhere near all the answers, none of us do.

So far I have not seen anything arrogant or what I don't agree with.

Maybe he has truth, maybe not.

Let him state his beliefs and if they are contrary to scriptures, then prove

his beliefs wrong with scriptures.

Until then let us not resort to personal character classification.

By the way if you read Paul's writings, he comes across as arrogant,  but of

course he was the great apostle Paul.



I am waiting to see the follows biblical understanding and go from there.

I must see things that you dont. Maybe its because I have been here a long time and have seen so many like this before.
If it goes the same way as the others before him, then no matter what he is shown or how many tell him he is wrong, it will change nothing.

Covkeeper, how about you state your case and then leave it to people here to reply and challenge or not. In my experience. some new believers have far more wisdom than mature ones. It may do you good to hear all views and beliefs.

Chosenone,

You say I sound arrogant. I get that a lot and I never grow weary of correcting that. There is a difference between being CONFIDENT and ARROGANT. One is aware of his limitations and the other is not. After nearly 20yrs of intentional reading and study, shouldn't one have enough confidence in their understanding of Scripture? If you've been a student as long as I have and yet lack confidence in your understanding, this discussion may be above you. I need confident, knowledgeable Christians to talk with.

Also, let's try and refrain from trying to figure me out as a person. Don't say, I don't care to be identified with the Body if I never said that. Please refrain from the slander and false accusations. Have patience, we're going to see clearly who Scripture determines to be my Spiritual brothers and Sisters and I will show you plainly why Christianity as you know it does not fit the description.

Sadly, you spent a whole paragraph giving commentary on me and how you see me. We haven't even begun talking about anything, yet lol. Please refrain from being quick to judge before hearing a matter. Try to exercise a Spirit of discernment if you truly have that Spirit in you.

What's also sad is, I run into alot of moderators who think if they've seen one kind of opposition to Christianity, they've seen it all. I'm sorry for your bad encounters but you're going to find out quickly that I'm nothing like what you've encountered before. Like I said I was a Christian for 20yrs but I didn't say that, not only is that so but, I was very "devout" in Christian terms. The bones I pick are substantial and I will say things about Christian beliefs that even you can't deny is being taught.

It kinda is up to me to decide who I will dialogue with on my Post especially if I've politely asked for a certain kind of engagement ahead of time. There's been at least one person who's responded so far that appears immature, I ignore them completely. I will ignore any Christian who portrays themselves as immature in the Faith and I think that is not only fair but a proper response. So no, I can't stop anyone from replying but I can control who I will respond to.

After 20yrs in, I'm like a General in the Christian world. If I salute you respectfully and you might be younger in the Faith than me, please return that gesture to me.

Let's talk about Water baptism and how Christians define it. Then, I'll show how inconsistent their definition is with how Scripture defines it as.

Who will give a simple definition?

Baptism is a public testimony that we have given up our old life and are publicly identifying with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and are entering our new life with Him.   

Layceers,

That definitely is the Christian definition. But let me ask you this:

When John the Baptist was baptizing people, do you think those people got baptized for the same reason as you? Keep in mind that it is noted that those being baptized there were a people being prepared for the LORD. What say you?

"Go into all the world and preach the Good News to everyone, everywhere. Anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved. But anyone who refuses to believe will be condemned.

1. It means we have turned from the old life of sin to a new life in Jesus Christ.
2. It means we are publicly identifying with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.
3. It means we are openly joining the ranks of those who believe in Christ.

We at our church do not believe in water baptizing .....

We have it all upon belief !

Do you understand all the pain and agony that Christ suffered for us ?

How He has made things in this time so much easier for us then in the
past  ?   

When you first became a Christen ,  did you believe  in all that you read ?

: grams  Mon Nov 30, 2015 - 05:48:40

We at our church do not believe in water baptizing .....

We have it all upon belief !

Do you understand all the pain and agony that Christ suffered for us ?

How He has made things in this time so much easier for us then in the
past  ?   

When you first became a Christen ,  did you believe  in all that you read ?

Your church is wrong.  Your Pastor is wrong.

: grams  Mon Nov 30, 2015 - 05:48:40

We at our church do not believe in water baptizing .....

We have it all upon belief !

Do you understand all the pain and agony that Christ suffered for us ?

How He has made things in this time so much easier for us then in the
past  ?   

When you first became a Christen ,  did you believe  in all that you read ?

We are told to be baptised.

Chosenone,

Look at some of the replies after I asked one simple question. You have Christians who don't believe in water baptism even though it's PLAINLY WRITTEN. This is one of the sad parts about Christianity:

The Biblical illiteracy in Christianity is of biblical proportions.

But of your list of 1 to 3, it's your #1 answer that we'll focus on. Tell me, what does your Bible define as "Sin"?

: Covkeeper34  Mon Nov 30, 2015 - 01:59:47When John the Baptist was baptizing people, do you think those people got baptized for the same reason as you? Keep in mind that it is noted that those being baptized there were a people being prepared for the LORD. What say you?

It really matters little what we think, or say, but what saith the word of God? John's baptism truly was a baptism of repentance, without confessing the religion of Jesus Christ, only that John exhorted them to believe on the coming Messiah, and his kingdom. The difference between the two are: post Christ's coming and exaltation to David's throne, people are now baptized into the religion, or faith of Jesus Christ , and in his name, with a promise attach to water baptism of receiving the knowledge of the indwelling Spirit;  whereas, John's baptism, even though for the right reasons, (bringing forth fruits meet for repentance, or worthy of) yet with different emphasis and promises, and with more knowledge.  Therefore, post Christ's life, death and resurrection, those who are baptized with a good conscience before God, enjoy a salvation (practical~Mark 16:16) that all saints prior to Christ's coming did not have, or could have. I remain a Christian under the revelation of the New Covenant sealed and ratified by the blood of the Lamb of God, who alone is worthy to take the books and open the seals thereof, of God's hidden mysteries.   

RB,

One thing you said sticks out to me. You said, 'it doesn't matter what we think but what saith the Word of God'.

Now, I just read your whole post. You say the  water baptismal ministry of Christ and of John Baptist are two different water baptisms. Is this correct?

One of the deceptions in Christianity is, if you aren't careful, you're liable to believe whatever sounds good. But put what you hear under a microscope. So, here's my challenge to you:

Can you produce two or three Scriptural/verse references that plainly say these are two different water baptisms WITHOUT superimposing onto the Word what actually isn't there?

But keep in mind that it is very plain to see that the water baptism of John's ministry was handed directly to Christ as he began to decrease. Christ then hands that SAME ministry to His Disciples. The only way you can believe those are two different water baptisms, is if your religion's doctrines make you believe they are.

Does your form of Christianity really teach that Christ wasn't baptised into John's baptism and it's purpose even though it's plainly witnessed that He was?

There's been at least one person who's responded so far that appears immature, I ignore them completely. I will ignore any Christian who portrays themselves as immature in the Faith and I think that is not only fair but a proper response.

Seems to me that a mature person would simply ignore and not make mention of  shunning who they judge as the "immature" one.  ::frown::

: Covkeeper34  Mon Nov 30, 2015 - 07:53:39Now, I just read your whole post. You say the  water baptismal ministry of Christ and of John Baptist are two different water baptisms. Is this correct?

Sir, can you not read what I said and from there approve or disprove? I said these words:

John's baptism truly was a baptism of repentance

The very same as all under the NT, post Christ.

are two different water baptisms

I did not say they are different, as far as their purposes served.

One of the deceptions in Christianity is, if you aren't careful, you're liable to believe whatever sounds good

Sir, you need to learn how to first define Christianity, per the word of God. It is true that you're liable to believe whatever sounds good, or what you desire to believe, regardless what the word of God teaches. The very elect cannot be totally and finally deceive, so your position toward Christianity, needs to be reworded to say "professors" of Jesus Christ. True Christianity/the very elect are the only worshipers who cannot be deceived in following another spirit, or Antichrist spirits.

But put what you hear under a microscope.

Christians test all spirits not under a microscope of one's standard of truth, but by the word of God. (1st John 4:1)

Can you produce two or three Scriptural/verse references that plainly say these are two different water baptisms WITHOUT superimposing onto the Word what actually isn't there?

Sir, I said this:

John's baptism truly was a baptism of repentance, without confessing the religion of Jesus Christ, only that John exhorted them to believe on the coming Messiah, and his kingdom. The difference between the two are: post Christ's coming and exaltation to David's throne, people are now baptized into the religion, or faith of Jesus Christ , and in his name, with a promise attach to water baptism of receiving the knowledge of the indwelling Spirit;  whereas, John's baptism, even though for the right reasons, (bringing forth fruits meet for repentance, or worthy of) yet with different emphasis and promises, and with more knowledge.

A classic scriptural reference to what I'am saying is found here:

Acts 19:1-6...Reads~"And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied."

A few things to ponder: They were baptized for the proper reason~"John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance"~Yet, after the death and resurrection of Christ, John's baptism was no longer valid, for his baptism served only until the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. These men were baptized after Jesus' death without being instructed properly of the promises of the New Covenant promises of the indwelling Spirit empowering them and guiding them into all truth~serving the body of Christ until Jesus comes again to receive them unto himself. Baptism in water has a more powerful, and enlighten meaning after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, than it did during John's ministry. 

Christ then hands that SAME ministry to His Disciples.

Really, then I think you need to give your understanding on why Paul commanded to re-baptized twelve disciples at Ephesus. There was a biblical reason why he did so. It had to do with them receiving the knowledge of the indwelling Spirit, and using that power available to them under the religion of the Son of God. Which was greater than what John the Baptist lived under.

Does your form of Christianity really teach that Christ wasn't baptised into John's baptism and it's purpose even though it's plainly witnessed that He was?

This is not what we are discussing. Jesus was indeed baptized by John to fulfilled all righteousness. Every child of God post Christ's death and resurrection are baptized for the very same reason as to why Jesus was baptized! Selah.  It's your turn to talk and let me listen and test what you have to say.

: Covkeeper34  Mon Nov 30, 2015 - 07:19:50
Chosenone,

Look at some of the replies after I asked one simple question. You have Christians who don't believe in water baptism even though it's PLAINLY WRITTEN. This is one of the sad parts about Christianity:

The Biblical illiteracy in Christianity is of biblical proportions.

But of your list of 1 to 3, it's your #1 answer that we'll focus on. Tell me, what does your Bible define as "Sin"?

To be honest I dont know any Christians who dont believe in baptism of one sort or another. Sorry I though we were talking about baptism?

: MeMyself  Mon Nov 30, 2015 - 08:48:39

There's been at least one person who's responded so far that appears immature, I ignore them completely. I will ignore any Christian who portrays themselves as immature in the Faith and I think that is not only fair but a proper response.

Seems to me that a mature person would simply ignore and not make mention of  shunning who they judge as the "immature" one.  ::frown::

Amen, its very rude isnt it.

Will address replies shortly, gotta punch that clock.

Acts  19:14  Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

Matthew  3:11  I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

John 1-17   In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  2 The same was in the beginning with God.  3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.  4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.  7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.  8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.  10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.  11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:  13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.  16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.  17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

They are two different baptism in that John was baptizing into repentance and to bear witness to the light.     Christ came and was baptizing with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

These verses (John 1-4...  1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  2 The same was in the beginning with God.  3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.  4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.) also say that although the light was here from the beginning, we were unable to "comprehend" it and Christs baptism opened our eyes to the truth of the light.

What say you?

Sallie    ::Christianfish::

: chosenone  Mon Nov 30, 2015 - 03:37:55
"Go into all the world and preach the Good News to everyone, everywhere. Anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved. But anyone who refuses to believe will be condemned.

1. It means we have turned from the old life of sin to a new life in Jesus Christ.
2. It means we are publicly identifying with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.
3. It means we are openly joining the ranks of those who believe in Christ.

SIGH...

Mark 16, from where you got the above quote states... (KJV)... as part of the telling of what transpired on Resurrection day when Jesus appeared to the 11

14Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

THERE IS NO MENTION OF A WATER BAPTISM HERE.

Chosenone, In the verses you are quoting, Jesus is talking to the 11 disciples. They have been told of the things those who accept Jesus and are baptized will do.

I submit He was referring to the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Not water.

Mathew tells us that John....

Matthew 3:11 - I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:

Acts 1:5 - For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

The following solidifies that idea for me..

Romans 8:9-11 - But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. [b]Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.[/b]

In other words.... If you have not the Holy Spirit you really are not saved because only His are saved and I submit that in the versus referenced above that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is what Jesus was talking about.

Repentance of sin is important. There were water baptisms before Jesus for repentance. These people who had pre-Jesus baptisms were not saved. They may have been cleansed and as such had better lives for that but they were not saved. That did not happen until after Jesus' ministry.

If water baptism was what Jesus meant , out of necessity, he would have told the disciples to go and preach and make believers and then those who had been baptised for repentence before Jesus would need to do it again, and those who never had been baptised needed to do it now.  IN WATER

The necessity would have been that realizing that even the very diciples of Jesus had not truly believed as they were living it, He would have had to make it crystal clear to them that the water baptism was part of the
salvation thing cause the deciples would not have been smart enough, obviously, to understand that...

But since Jesus did not make that undeniably understood to them...

IT HAD TO BE THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPRIT that the disciples were going to get themselves.

BUT HE NEVER SAID THAT....

He said " He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved"

That has to be different then a water baptism.

: Rella  Mon Nov 30, 2015 - 12:43:40

: chosenone  Mon Nov 30, 2015 - 03:37:55
"Go into all the world and preach the Good News to everyone, everywhere. Anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved. But anyone who refuses to believe will be condemned.

1. It means we have turned from the old life of sin to a new life in Jesus Christ.
2. It means we are publicly identifying with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.
3. It means we are openly joining the ranks of those who believe in Christ.

SIGH...

Mark 16, from where you got the above quote states... (KJV)... as part of the telling of what transpired on Resurrection day when Jesus appeared to the 11

14Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

THERE IS NO MENTION OF A WATER BAPTISM HERE.

Chosenone, In the verses you are quoting, Jesus is talking to the 11 disciples. They have been told of the things those who accept Jesus and are baptized will do.

I submit He was referring to the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Not water.

Mathew tells us that John....

Matthew 3:11 - I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:

Acts 1:5 - For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

The following solidifies that idea for me..

Romans 8:9-11 - But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. [b]Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.[/b]

In other words.... If you have not the Holy Spirit you really are not saved because only His are saved and I submit that in the versus referenced above that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is what Jesus was talking about.

Repentance of sin is important. There were water baptisms before Jesus for repentance. These people who had pre-Jesus baptisms were not saved. They may have been cleansed and as such had better lives for that but they were not saved. That did not happen until after Jesus' ministry.

If water baptism was what Jesus meant , out of necessity, he would have told the disciples to go and preach and make believers and then those who had been baptised for repentence before Jesus would need to do it again, and those who never had been baptised needed to do it now.  IN WATER

The necessity would have been that realizing that even the very diciples of Jesus had not truly believed as they were living it, He would have had to make it crystal clear to them that the water baptism was part of the
salvation thing cause the deciples would not have been smart enough, obviously, to understand that...

But since Jesus did not make that undeniably understood to them...

IT HAD TO BE THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPRIT that the disciples were going to get themselves.

BUT HE NEVER SAID THAT....

He said " He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved"

That has to be different then a water baptism.

Matthew 28:18-20
18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

acts 8 v 38
And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him.

Just one example of them doing what Jesus had instructed. 

Layceers,

No denying those passages you mentioned--all true. But I'll add a perspective not recognized by the Christian worldview later.

: Covkeeper34  Mon Nov 30, 2015 - 14:33:34
Layceers,

No denying those passages you mentioned--all true. But I'll add a perspective not recognized by the Christian worldview later.

maybe you would like to reply to the many Bible verses on baptism that have been posted.

When the scriptures we have today were translated, "baptize" was an untranslated word.   The Greek writers wrote as "baptizo."  It came from the Koine (common) Greek language of the first century.   When it was later translated the "o" was dropped and they added the "e" and made the English verb baptize.    In Greek, baptizo means to immerse, dip, sink or submerge.   

I think it is doubtful that any of writers of the New Testament would give this verb any other meaning that what was common at that time

: Layceers  Mon Nov 30, 2015 - 11:01:06They are two different baptism in that John was baptizing into repentance and to bear witness to the light.     Christ came and was baptizing with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

Greetings Sallie~Baptizing with the Holy Spirit and with fire are within themselves two different baptism~thy are NOT one and the same. The baptism of fire is for the wicked in the lake of fire in that day, it is not for the godly!

Matthew 3:11,12...Reads~"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

These scriptures spoken by John the Baptist proves that the baptism of fire is a baptism of JUDGMENT in the lake of fire, which is the second death.

Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

These words teaches us what John meant by saying: he shall baptize you "with the Holy Ghost" and "with fire".

: Layceers  Mon Nov 30, 2015 - 14:51:35
When the scriptures we have today were translated, "baptize" was an untranslated word.   The Greek writers wrote as "baptizo."  It came from the Koine (common) Greek language of the first century.   When it was later translated the "o" was dropped and they added the "e" and made the English verb baptize.    In Greek, baptizo means to immerse, dip, sink or submerge.   

I think it is doubtful that any of writers of the New Testament would give this verb any other meaning that what was common at that time

Yes.

Layceers,

What is it you would like me address with your verses? I said I agree totally already.

Covkeeper,

I'm sorry, I was responding to Rella's post.    I'm waiting to learn you insights and how differently you interpret baptism.

Layceers, 

Oh ok. I did see a question that I will answer a little later, still working.

I agree with Covkeeper  maybe on the point of being an X Christian . As he I no longer consider myself a Christian in the sense the word has become so cheap in the modern-day organized traditional church system.  Don't get me wrong I also agree with Chosen that there are many  followers of Christ in the orders. It's the orders that is the problem. Names that divide us into categories of beliefs.  I'm not sure what Cov is wanting to do. I don't count myself as any brain child of the scriptures but I don't consider myself as one who thinks he knows when he actually knows nothing. Still many here can dance circles around me with their  knowledge. What I have been given is a strong and reasonable  understanding having been a believer for thirty five years. I have seen a lot and the Lord has shown me a lot. So just what is your drive Cov that you thing you know that no one else knows. 


So Sorry my reply should have left back on the first page.

RB,

I went back and read your reply again that you may feel I misunderstood. I do agree somewhat with what you said and not at all to say you're wrong about anything, I don't want to pick at your words.

But you asked why Paul re-baptized some of John's disciples. My answer simply is that Jesus commanded it so. We have enough verses to verify that for sure. But for you to say it made the baptism of repentance invalid, you have no verses that expressly say that or verify such a claim. So, because there aren't any verses to compliment your interpretation, I personally have to put it on the shelf somewhere.

Layceers,

I noticed you hit on a Greek definition of baptism. Why would you consult the Greek if baptism for the sake of this discussion is a Hebraic thing? Shouldn't you go with the Hebraic definition (s) of baptism, one of which is MIKVAH?

Because it's written in Greek, and that's the word they chose to use?

That was a pretty good warm up asking what you all believe about baptism. Many of you claim or I am led to believe that many of you would claim to have the Spirit of Truth in you. How is then you don't agree on what "baptism" certain verses are referring to? The Spirit isn't divided in His mind concerning this but some of you are. I'm going to slowly show why that is.

Here's some Biblical rules you all can use from now on in discussions and I promise you'll never go wrong:

1) Consistency rules. If you believe it's true in the NT, it should be consistently true in the FT (first testament), first. Why? Because the first half of the volume is the foundation of the second half.

2) Witnesses. If you believe it's true in the NT, you should be able to produce at least two or three witnesses to verify. You should be able to find witnesses from the FT. It's too easy to put verses together and say 'Ha, this is what it means!'. Not always true at all and we all know this. But the dividing line is: can you produce actual examples to what you claim as a correct interpretation?

If you keep these two rules you can eliminate so many false Christian beliefs and that's exactly what I'm going to do here.

Lastly:

3) My greatest weapon in discussions with Christians is that I will employ common sense, good reasoning, and reality to your study. Common sense is the greatest of the three because no one can win an argument against common sense....tthink about it.

Sooo....

Consistently, from Genesis to Revelation,  there is a definition for what Sin is. Would anyone like to say what that is?

: LexKnight  Mon Nov 30, 2015 - 21:14:45
Because it's written in Greek, and that's the word they chose to use?

Here's another problem in Christianity.  The word may be Greek but the people aren't thinking Greek when it comes to things that are Hebraic/Jewish in origin or nature. Define baptism from the Hebraic, please.

: Covkeeper34  Mon Nov 30, 2015 - 21:31:17

: LexKnight  Mon Nov 30, 2015 - 21:14:45
Because it's written in Greek, and that's the word they chose to use?

Here's another problem in Christianity.  The word may be Greek but the people aren't thinking Greek when it comes to things that are Hebraic/Jewish in origin or nature. Define baptism from the Hebraic, please.

It doesn't really matter to me right now what it is in Hebrew, because those letters were written to a Greek-speaking people, they would have written in a way for them to understand it. No confusion from God, remember?

: LexKnight  Mon Nov 30, 2015 - 21:35:19

: Covkeeper34  Mon Nov 30, 2015 - 21:31:17

: LexKnight  Mon Nov 30, 2015 - 21:14:45
Because it's written in Greek, and that's the word they chose to use?

Here's another problem in Christianity.  The word may be Greek but the people aren't thinking Greek when it comes to things that are Hebraic/Jewish in origin or nature. Define baptism from the Hebraic, please.

It doesn't really matter to me right now what it is in Hebrew, because those letters were written to a Greek-speaking people, they would have written in a way for them to understand it. No confusion from God, remember?

LexKnight,

There's fault with your understanding,  because we know when Jesus spoke in the Gospels about baptism of which ever sort, His audience wasn't Greek. No, they were Hebrews. Do you think those Hebrews were looking for a Greek interpretation to things Hebraic in nature? Of course not. But what's possessing you to think otherwise--a translation? Yes that and of course "Westernized Christianity".

: Covkeeper34  Mon Nov 30, 2015 - 21:43:56

: LexKnight  Mon Nov 30, 2015 - 21:35:19

: Covkeeper34  Mon Nov 30, 2015 - 21:31:17

: LexKnight  Mon Nov 30, 2015 - 21:14:45
Because it's written in Greek, and that's the word they chose to use?

Here's another problem in Christianity.  The word may be Greek but the people aren't thinking Greek when it comes to things that are Hebraic/Jewish in origin or nature. Define baptism from the Hebraic, please.

It doesn't really matter to me right now what it is in Hebrew, because those letters were written to a Greek-speaking people, they would have written in a way for them to understand it. No confusion from God, remember?

LexKnight,

There's fault with your understanding,  because we know when Jesus spoke in the Gospels about baptism of which ever sort, His audience wasn't Greek. No, they were Hebrews. Do you think those Hebrews were looking for a Greek interpretation to things Hebraic in nature? Of course not. But what's possessing you to think otherwise--a translation? Yes that and of course "Westernized Christianity".

Luke and Acts was written to a Greek audience for sure, and Acts is very big on baptism, part of it is what's being addressed here. So of course, being there's no confusion with God, the accounts and teachings would have been written so the Greek audience would understand them. It's a story among Hebrew people... being retold to a Greek audience. I can't say that any clearer.

Baptizo means immersion, simple.

LexKnight,

Let me put you on the spot and ask what your reservation is against the Hebraic definition of baptism?

So, let me put it in perspective according to your understanding:

If these things were written to an American audience, are we going to tell them the Hebraic understanding still or are we going to change things up a bit so Americans can understand it? I tell you, this is another fault in Christianity. Christianity changed this Hebraic lifestyle into something that isn't Hebraic in nature anymore. Christianity as you know it is something different than what you read about because Westernized Christianity transforms this thing Hebraic in nature into something more acceptable to an American way of thought. Christianity is dying because of this.

Just to clear things up....here is the Hebrew definition of Mikveh.

"The term mikveh in Hebrew literally means any gathering of waters, but is specifically used in Jewish law for the waters or bath for the ritual immersion."

They used the "mikveh" for several reasons, many pertaining to the cleansing rituals they practiced, such as for women after their monthly, etc.

Both "baptizo" and "mikveh" mean immersion in water.

: mclees8  Mon Nov 30, 2015 - 18:06:05
I agree with Covkeeper  maybe on the point of being an X Christian . As he I no longer consider myself a Christian in the sense the word has become so cheap in the modern-day organized traditional church system.  Don't get me wrong I also agree with Chosen that there are many  followers of Christ in the orders. It's the orders that is the problem. Names that divide us into categories of beliefs.  I'm not sure what Cov is wanting to do. I don't count myself as any brain child of the scriptures but I don't consider myself as one who thinks he knows when he actually knows nothing. Still many here can dance circles around me with their  knowledge. What I have been given is a strong and reasonable  understanding having been a believer for thirty five years. I have seen a lot and the Lord has shown me a lot. So just what is your drive Cov that you thing you know that no one else knows. 


So Sorry my reply should have left back on the first page.

For myself I dont think that we should ever deny what we are, Christians, just because some who use that name are a bad example. Should I say that I am an 'ex woman' because some women are awful?OR 'ex mother' because there are some terrible mothers out there? it makes no sense at all.

Its up to us to be proud of using the name of Christ and be a GOOD example, and I for one will never ever deny what I am and call myself the weird name of 'ex Christian', especially if its because I think myself 'above' and 'more knowledgeable'  than the rest of Christs body an that they need me to teach them because they have it all wrong.  WHat arrogance  ::frown::.

He doesnt know what no one else knows, he merely has his own opinions and ideas on what the Bible says, as we all do. Mclee your beliefs and opinions and understandings are just as valid as his, its just that you have far more humility. I have often been impressed by your posts.     

Have you also noticed that he appears to ignore the verses and views from the women here? Maybe he thinks we are not knowledgeable enough for him, and yet Jesus even says 'let the little children come to me for the kingdom of Heaven belongs to such as these',  so Jesus thinks differently, knowledge to Him means little, He is concerned with our hearts and our love and our  passion for Him, wanting to be near Him and enjoy Him.  ::nodding::

Layceers,

Thank you for the definition. With that we know that baptism really isn't a NT thing. Many Christians are unaware of this.

: Covkeeper34  Mon Nov 30, 2015 - 22:11:08
LexKnight,

Let me put you on the spot and ask what your reservation is against the Hebraic definition of baptism?

So, let me put it in perspective according to your understanding:

If these things were written to an American audience, are we going to tell them the Hebraic understanding still or are we going to change things up a bit so Americans can understand it? I tell you, this is another fault in Christianity. Christianity changed this Hebraic lifestyle into something that isn't Hebraic in nature anymore. Christianity as you know it something different than what you read about because Westernized Christianity transforms this thing Hebraic in nature into something more acceptable to an American way of thought. Christianity is dying because of this.

In your opinion.

: Covkeeper34  Sun Nov 29, 2015 - 23:04:26
Let's talk about Water baptism and how Christians define it. Then, I'll show how inconsistent their definition is with how Scripture defines it as.

Before we move on to defining sin, it's your turn.

How do you define water baptism?

Tell me covkeeper, do you meet with other believers as God says we should? Are you an active part of the body of Christ as we are told to be, or are you one of these 'lone wolves' who think they dont need anyone else or that others dont have their understanding therefore arent worth bothering about?   

: chosenone  Mon Nov 30, 2015 - 22:12:39

: mclees8  Mon Nov 30, 2015 - 18:06:05
I agree with Covkeeper  maybe on the point of being an X Christian . As he I no longer consider myself a Christian in the sense the word has become so cheap in the modern-day organized traditional church system.  Don't get me wrong I also agree with Chosen that there are many  followers of Christ in the orders. It's the orders that is the problem. Names that divide us into categories of beliefs.  I'm not sure what Cov is wanting to do. I don't count myself as any brain child of the scriptures but I don't consider myself as one who thinks he knows when he actually knows nothing. Still many here can dance circles around me with their  knowledge. What I have been given is a strong and reasonable  understanding having been a believer for thirty five years. I have seen a lot and the Lord has shown me a lot. So just what is your drive Cov that you thing you know that no one else knows. 


So Sorry my reply should have left back on the first page.

For myself I dont think that we should ever deny what we are, Christians, just because some who use that name are a bad example. Should I say that I am an 'ex woman' because some women are awful?OR 'ex mother' because there are some terrible mothers out there? it makes no sense at all.

Its up to us to be proud of using the name of Christ and be a GOOD example, and I for one will never ever deny what I am and call myself the weird name of 'ex Christian', especially if its because I think myself 'above' and 'more knowledgeable'  than the rest of Christs body an that they need me to teach them because they have it all wrong.  WHat arrogance  ::frown::.

He doesnt know what no one else knows, he merely has his own opinions and ideas on what the Bible says, as we all do. Mclee your beliefs and opinions and understandings are just as valid as his, its just that you have far more humility. I have often been impressed by your posts.     

Have you also noticed that he appears to ignore the verses and views from the women here?

In all fairness to the OP,  in his original post he stated that....

"I like to have a friendly talk with only strong Christians who know their bibles
well....."

and

"I'd like to speak with only teachable and humble disciples. ....."



Right from the start he was straight forward about this.

So I believe it has nothing to do with women,  but as an observer of your posts

in this thread so far,  it is very well possible that you don't fit the criteria he laid

out from the start as to who he will engage in speaking to.

Layceers,

Water baptism is a baptism of repentance according to John's baptism. I concur.

We baptise in Christ's name as commanded. It's an outward expression that you are turning from Lawlessness to Lawfulness. It's identifying yourself with the Covenant of God.

chosenone,

I do fellowship and have a congregational home. Why? Are you trying to find something to discredit me on? I won't let that happen.

Layceers,

Give me Scripture's definition of Sin, please.
Let's use both halves of the Book.

As soon as someone rightfully and Scripturally defines SIN, I'll expound on baptism some more. It'll contradict Christianity but no one will be able to deny what's there. I wait patiently.

We're 4 pages of messages in and we still don't know what Covkeeper34 meant when he/she said "I know that  "Westernized Christianity" isn't the same as what we read in the Bible."

I know some of you feel that he/she stepped on some toes when he/she entered with the requirements needed to have dialogue with him/her.   But please try to look beyond what you feel was a slight and allow us to stay on topic.   Or start another thread to address your concerns.     I say this only because I have been in other message boards where topics got completely off track and threads were shut down because other disgruntled posters wanted to disrupt the conversation for their own personal reasons.

I have noticed that there are quite a few people watching this thread, and even if they are not posting, they are showing interest in the topic.  So for myself and any others who are curious, I would like to keep it going and learn what he/she is talking about.

Thank You

It's almost 1:30 AM here.  I will define sin tomm morn.     Have a great night...errr morning everyone.   ::smile::

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 00:00:28
Layceers,

Give me Scripture's definition of Sin, please.
Let's use both halves of the Book.

Unbelief--disobedience

: doorknocker  Mon Nov 30, 2015 - 23:04:39

: chosenone  Mon Nov 30, 2015 - 22:12:39

: mclees8  Mon Nov 30, 2015 - 18:06:05
I agree with Covkeeper  maybe on the point of being an X Christian . As he I no longer consider myself a Christian in the sense the word has become so cheap in the modern-day organized traditional church system.  Don't get me wrong I also agree with Chosen that there are many  followers of Christ in the orders. It's the orders that is the problem. Names that divide us into categories of beliefs.  I'm not sure what Cov is wanting to do. I don't count myself as any brain child of the scriptures but I don't consider myself as one who thinks he knows when he actually knows nothing. Still many here can dance circles around me with their  knowledge. What I have been given is a strong and reasonable  understanding having been a believer for thirty five years. I have seen a lot and the Lord has shown me a lot. So just what is your drive Cov that you thing you know that no one else knows. 


So Sorry my reply should have left back on the first page.

For myself I dont think that we should ever deny what we are, Christians, just because some who use that name are a bad example. Should I say that I am an 'ex woman' because some women are awful?OR 'ex mother' because there are some terrible mothers out there? it makes no sense at all.

Its up to us to be proud of using the name of Christ and be a GOOD example, and I for one will never ever deny what I am and call myself the weird name of 'ex Christian', especially if its because I think myself 'above' and 'more knowledgeable'  than the rest of Christs body an that they need me to teach them because they have it all wrong.  WHat arrogance  ::frown::.

He doesnt know what no one else knows, he merely has his own opinions and ideas on what the Bible says, as we all do. Mclee your beliefs and opinions and understandings are just as valid as his, its just that you have far more humility. I have often been impressed by your posts.     

Have you also noticed that he appears to ignore the verses and views from the women here?

In all fairness to the OP,  in his original post he stated that....

"I like to have a friendly talk with only strong Christians who know their bibles
well....."

and

"I'd like to speak with only teachable and humble disciples. ....."



Right from the start he was straight forward about this.

So I believe it has nothing to do with women,  but as an observer of your posts

in this thread so far,  it is very well possible that you don't fit the criteria he laid

out from the start as to who he will engage in speaking to.

You are probably right, women tend to be much better at picking up on pride and arrogance, even though in this case it was glaringly obvious. ::frown::     However we have also typed up Biblical verses in answer to him, which were of course ignored. ::shrug::

Maybe I need to get my husband on here who is a doctor, a scientist and a researcher, and who also reads his bible a LOT and who has been a Christian for 53 years since he was 5,  but I know what he would say if I explained the situation, he would laugh and say  "WHy do you waste you time on people like that?". Probably very wise. ::nodding::

MY concern is ALWAYS here that impressionable maybe newish believers will be taken in by it or totally confused by it. We have what we need with God and the Bible, its all there and not hard to understand(no matter if we are 'experts' or not) whether its what baptism is about or what sin is, or whatever else. We do not need a new 'revelation' from someone who seems ashamed to use the name of Christ to describe Himself.  ::frown::

: Layceers  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 00:13:26
We're 4 pages of messages in and we still don't know what Covkeeper34 meant when he/she said "I know that  "Westernized Christianity" isn't the same as what we read in the Bible."

I know some of you feel that he/she stepped on some toes when he/she entered with the requirements needed to have dialogue with him/her.   But please try to look beyond what you feel was a slight and allow us to stay on topic.   Or start another thread to address your concerns.     I say this only because I have been in other message boards where topics got completely off track and threads were shut down because other disgruntled posters wanted to disrupt the conversation for their own personal reasons.

I have noticed that there are quite a few people watching this thread, and even if they are not posting, they are showing interest in the topic.  So for myself and any others who are curious, I would like to keep it going and learn what he/she is talking about.

Thank You

The problem that I dont think he will tell you/us what he means, he will go round and round and round the houses, asking us leading questions, then showing us that we are all apparently wrong and that only HE has the correct interpretations and answers.

Layceers, good for you that you are even willing or wanting to engage with an 'ex Christian', but we have had SO many just like him here over the years, claiming that only 'they' have all the answers, they come and they go, they come and they go some more, and us normal Christians remain to carrying on fellowshipping and discussing as equals, as brothers and sisters who are actually proud to have the name of Christ in the name we use to describe who we are and who we follow.  ::shrug::

chosenone,

Here's the thing, I'm publicly and respectfully asking that you respect my Post by saying nothing except related to the Bible. Keep me out of your mouth, please. If you cannot keep your focus on Bible solely here, it's best that you go and create a Post where you can vent about people you've never met but seem to think you have figured out.

Now as asserted in my opening post, because you sound immature, at this point you are being ignored. Please post no more replies that embarrass good Christian manners.

Honestly, by the things you've said, it looks like you're begging for my attention. It looks like you feel ignored

Don't take it personal but, I'm really just responding to people who've sparked my interest. I feel people out to see who's patient and who's not. You don't possess that quality. You seem easily agitated.

doorknocker,
That isn't the Biblical definition of SIN.

: Covkeeper34  Mon Nov 30, 2015 - 21:02:39

I don't want to pick at your words.

That's commendable, and scriptural I might add.

Isaiah 29:21...Reads~ "That make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of nought."

You said:

But you asked why Paul re-baptized some of John's disciples. My answer simply is that Jesus commanded it so. We have enough verses to verify that for sure.

Would you please supply those scriptures proving that. Actually the answer is in the context of Acts 19:1-6, particularly Acts 19:2-4 which reads:

"He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus."

Herein is the main place in the NT where we see expressly what separated John's baptism from all baptisms after Pentecost. These twelve believers at Ephesus were baptized according to John the Baptist baptism which WAS a proper method, both by immersion and proof of repentance, yet their baptism had taken place after Pentecost, which the promise of the Spirit was added as a gift to those who were baptized from Pentecost until this very day. They were indeed baptized properly, yet had never heard of the promise of the Spirit, they were void of so much as hearing if there was any Spirit.  Them being baptized by Paul added nothing to their eternal salvation which was secured by Christ alone, yet it did added KNOWLEDGE, and available POWER that they did not know they had at their finger tips! 

But for you to say it made the baptism of repentance invalid

I did not say that it was invalid as far as the method and the reason why one is baptized, for again, John DID baptized the baptism of REPENTANCE, and Paul agree with that, only these men were baptized after Pentecost which means that all baptisms after Pentecost are done with much more light and added reasons, namely we are now baptized INTO JESUS CHRIST, which John's baptism did not have, since Christ had not died and rose again, being highly exalted to God's right hand of power. No one before Christ's death and resurrection was baptized for the same reasons as we are, and receiving the same gift of the Spirit as we have.  I say we are baptized into Jesus Christ, which I mean that we are baptized into the religion/faith of Jesus Christ who is both Lord and King of believers. Our religion is not the religion of Islam, Mormonism, and a thousands other religions in Mystery Babylon, but ours is solely based upon the life, death and resurrection of the Son of the Living God.   And all of God's children said AMEN.  After forty one years in the true faith sanction by the God of Heaven.

: chosenone  Mon Nov 30, 2015 - 22:12:39

: mclees8  Mon Nov 30, 2015 - 18:06:05
I agree with Covkeeper  maybe on the point of being an X Christian . As he I no longer consider myself a Christian in the sense the word has become so cheap in the modern-day organized traditional church system.  Don't get me wrong I also agree with Chosen that there are many  followers of Christ in the orders. It's the orders that is the problem. Names that divide us into categories of beliefs.  I'm not sure what Cov is wanting to do. I don't count myself as any brain child of the scriptures but I don't consider myself as one who thinks he knows when he actually knows nothing. Still many here can dance circles around me with their  knowledge. What I have been given is a strong and reasonable  understanding having been a believer for thirty five years. I have seen a lot and the Lord has shown me a lot. So just what is your drive Cov that you thing you know that no one else knows. 


So Sorry my reply should have left back on the first page.

For myself I dont think that we should ever deny what we are, Christians, just because some who use that name are a bad example. Should I say that I am an 'ex woman' because some women are awful?OR 'ex mother' because there are some terrible mothers out there? it makes no sense at all.

Its up to us to be proud of using the name of Christ and be a GOOD example, and I for one will never ever deny what I am and call myself the weird name of 'ex Christian', especially if its because I think myself 'above' and 'more knowledgeable'  than the rest of Christs body an that they need me to teach them because they have it all wrong.  WHat arrogance  ::frown::.

He doesnt know what no one else knows, he merely has his own opinions and ideas on what the Bible says, as we all do. Mclee your beliefs and opinions and understandings are just as valid as his, its just that you have far more humility. I have often been impressed by your posts.     

Have you also noticed that he appears to ignore the verses and views from the women here? Maybe he thinks we are not knowledgeable enough for him, and yet Jesus even says 'let the little children come to me for the kingdom of Heaven belongs to such as these',  so Jesus thinks differently, knowledge to Him means little, He is concerned with our hearts and our love and our  passion for Him, wanting to be near Him and enjoy Him.  ::nodding::

I thank you for respectful comments concerning some of my posts.  About being proud of who we are, I am  proud to  saved and a follower of Christ. My favorite scripture I am going to put on a T-shirt Is " I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ for it is the word of God unto Salvation". You see I am just as proud of who I am as you. How ever when I see Christianity to day with all the false beliefs and doctrines of men. Big business and the use of every kind of worldly drag in I fail see I can be proud to identify with that.

I say our faith that is true first begins on  our knees in our prayer closet. I could never identify with I'm good Baptist or Methodist, or catholic.  I come here and see a theological think tank where we debate our theological skills. This is just what this fellow is doing. I say I didn't have to go  to mechanics school to learn every nut and bolt of the engine to own and drive a car. I am just a simple minded man yet I know I cn drive my car just as well as the next. I left training school long long ago. The most valuable things we can have are very simple when it comes to salvation." For God so loves the world that He gave his only begotten Son that whomsoever believes upon HIm shall nt perish but have ever lasting life." Simple   ::tippinghat::

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 04:15:06doorknocker, That isn't the Biblical definition of SIN.

I agree that unbelief is the result of sin, not the definition of it. I have a meeting to attend, will come back and give my understanding of what constitute sin.  I believe the simplest place to start would be where God started with sin.

Romans 5:12~"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

What Adam did to allow sin to entered into the world, would be the simplest definition of sin .  So what did Adam do, that God called it a sin? He disobeyed a commandment given to him from his Creator. Sin is a transgression of a commandment/law given by God. Once it is conceived (the lust of it) in one's thoughts, at that point it becomes a sin, and it comes forth~ and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death.

: chosenone  Mon Nov 30, 2015 - 12:49:51

Matthew 28:18-20
18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

acts 8 v 38
And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him.

Just one example of them doing what Jesus had instructed.

Then IF this statement Jesus made is true, and it is only water baptism....

" He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

then I am very saddened.

The reason is that family and friends, who have left this mortal life...of whom were very good believers and followers to the best of their ability in Christ ... the bulk of them are damned because none of them
got re-baptised after accepting Jesus.

Only a couple who did it when visiting the Holy lands and the travel group did it over there.... but not as part of being saved but more a part of being able to tell folks when they got back here.

And I am likely not going to make it because I have not been. (Yes, I know I can.... but I have no church
that immerses near me and for me to travel is not possible these days.)

If that is true, then every church that professes to be a Christian church, that does not re-baptize after accepting Jesus, or submerses,  is leading their congregations to hell in a hand basket....

And people flock there every Sunday not knowing.

Hey, Doorknocker, do you play the Trumpet, by any chance?

CovKeeper34

To answer your question about sin:

Sin is anything that we do that is outside of the will of God.
   
In the Old Testament there are many examples of folks saying no to God and then suffering the consequences.    Jonah is a good example.   He got up close and personal with a big fish.   And poor Moses never got into the Promised Land because he did not follow God's instructions.

The same goes for the New Testament.    We are to try to be reflections of the Light that is in us.    We, as children of the Living God have the Spirit of God within us.    When God directs us to go one way and we do the opposite....that is sin.

In the New Testament:

Matthew 22: 36-40    Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.  This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.   On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

1John: 3-4  Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5  And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6  Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

: Layceers  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 09:46:56
CovKeeper34

To answer your question about sin:

Sin is anything that we do that is outside of the will of God.
   
In the Old Testament there are many examples of folks saying no to God and then suffering the consequences.    Jonah is a good example.   He got up close and personal with a big fish.   And poor Moses never got into the Promised Land because he did not follow God's instructions.

The same goes for the New Testament.    We are to try to be reflections of the Light that is in us.    We, as children of the Living God have the Spirit of God within us.    When God directs us to go one way and we do the opposite....that is sin.

In the New Testament:

Matthew 22: 36-40    Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.  This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.   On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

1John: 3-4  Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5  And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6  Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

So how would you interpret that verse whosoever sinneth has not seen Him.  Just what do see it saying. First examine your self and see if there is no failing you. Then tell us what you think.

RB,

You asked that I provide verses that prove Christ commanded baptism in His name.

Matthew 28:19-20 and similar verses at the end of other Gospels.

It's reasonable to say that, if He wouldn't have commanded it, neither Paul nor the other Apostles would've continued doing it. Just like in Christianity today, some really believe that if the NT doesn't explicitly bring up a teaching, they aren't accountable.

Your explanations about Water baptism are acceptable as I do understand what you're saying. But I think I'm ready to add that perspective I was talking about.....

RB and Layceers,

You both gave that one BEST answer to what SIN is:

Sin is the transgression of the Law/comm..This is consistently True from FT to NT, is it not?

AHH, if I go any further I'll jump ahead of myself! But since we have the SIN thing established:

Who is able to give the Biblical definition of REPENTANCE and what it consistenty applies to using both halves of the Book?

Remember, Consistency rules. This is the beginning of where popular Christian doctrines get proven to be false.

: mclees8  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 10:38:15

: Layceers  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 09:46:56
CovKeeper34

To answer your question about sin:

Sin is anything that we do that is outside of the will of God.
   
In the Old Testament there are many examples of folks saying no to God and then suffering the consequences.    Jonah is a good example.   He got up close and personal with a big fish.   And poor Moses never got into the Promised Land because he did not follow God's instructions.

The same goes for the New Testament.    We are to try to be reflections of the Light that is in us.    We, as children of the Living God have the Spirit of God within us.    When God directs us to go one way and we do the opposite....that is sin.

In the New Testament:

Matthew 22: 36-40    Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.  This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.   On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

1John: 3-4  Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5  And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6  Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

So how would you interpret that verse whosoever sinneth has not seen Him.  Just what do see it saying. First examine your self and see if there is no failing you. Then tell us what you think.

Hmmmm....I have to ponder this for a bit.    But just to be honest, I have examined myself and fell short more times than I can count.    I have to run some errands for my Mother, but I will address this when I get back.     Alot to think and pray about.   

::Christianfish::

: Rella  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 07:47:03" He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."then I am very saddened.

My dear sister, do not be saddened.  Mark 16:16 is without question speaking of water baptism, but the salvation in this precious verse has not one thing to do with regeneration, but a practical salvation , that many saints in the OT did not enjoy, as NT saints do post Christ's death and resurrection. A sign, or evidence of one being damned is not whether or not they have been baptized properly, but do they indeed believe the record that God gave of his Son? If not, then that person shall be damned to the lake of fire, which is the second death. Water baptism properly performed with true faith, has temporal benefits/blessings, not eternal. Jesus Christ's faith/obedience/righteousness secured our eternal redemption for us according to the will of God. Do not be saddened my dear friend.

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 10:54:59
RB and Layceers,

You both gave that one BEST answer to what SIN is:

Sin is the transgression of the Law/comm..This is consistently True from FT to NT, is it not?

AHH, if I go any further I'll jump ahead of myself! But since since we have the SIN thing established:

Who is able to give the Biblical definition of REPENTANCE and what it consistenty applies to using both halves of the Book?

Remember, Consistency rules. This is the beginning of where popular Christian doctrines get proven to be false.

Can you produce 2 or 3 scripture verse/reference that clearly define that

sin is the transgression of the law.

Also sin is the transgression of which law?

: MeMyself  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 08:49:17
Hey, Doorknocker, do you play the Trumpet, by any chance?

rofl

: Rella  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 07:47:03

: chosenone  Mon Nov 30, 2015 - 12:49:51

Matthew 28:18-20
18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

acts 8 v 38
And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him.

Just one example of them doing what Jesus had instructed.

Then IF this statement Jesus made is true, and it is only water baptism....

" He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

then I am very saddened.

The reason is that family and friends, who have left this mortal life...of whom were very good believers and followers to the best of their ability in Christ ... the bulk of them are damned because none of them
got re-baptised after accepting Jesus.

Only a couple who did it when visiting the Holy lands and the travel group did it over there.... but not as part of being saved but more a part of being able to tell folks when they got back here.

And I am likely not going to make it because I have not been. (Yes, I know I can.... but I have no church
that immerses near me and for me to travel is not possible these days.)

If that is true, then every church that professes to be a Christian church, that does not re-baptize after accepting Jesus, or submerses,  is leading their congregations to hell in a hand basket....

And people flock there every Sunday not knowing.

Rella, it says He that believeth not shall be damned. It doesnt say he who hasnt been baptised shall be damned . I dont believe that Gods children are damned merely because they didnt get wet in the right way. There are many strong mature believers who were baptised as babies and then confirmed and yet were never baptised again as adults who I am 100% sure are or will be in heaven when they die. Their churches dont even do adult baptism. There must also be countless people who convert in a life or death situation or who are on their death bed when they find Jesus,  who dont get the chance to be baptised. The thief on the cross wasnt baptised. Someone can be converted and then die before they can be baptised, they are saved already.

I wouldnt worry about that. I believe its right and good that we are baptised as believers in obedience to Him, but as for people not being saved if they havent, cant see that is what The Bible says at all.

: mclees8  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 05:52:41

: chosenone  Mon Nov 30, 2015 - 22:12:39

: mclees8  Mon Nov 30, 2015 - 18:06:05
I agree with Covkeeper  maybe on the point of being an X Christian . As he I no longer consider myself a Christian in the sense the word has become so cheap in the modern-day organized traditional church system.  Don't get me wrong I also agree with Chosen that there are many  followers of Christ in the orders. It's the orders that is the problem. Names that divide us into categories of beliefs.  I'm not sure what Cov is wanting to do. I don't count myself as any brain child of the scriptures but I don't consider myself as one who thinks he knows when he actually knows nothing. Still many here can dance circles around me with their  knowledge. What I have been given is a strong and reasonable  understanding having been a believer for thirty five years. I have seen a lot and the Lord has shown me a lot. So just what is your drive Cov that you thing you know that no one else knows. 


So Sorry my reply should have left back on the first page.

For myself I dont think that we should ever deny what we are, Christians, just because some who use that name are a bad example. Should I say that I am an 'ex woman' because some women are awful?OR 'ex mother' because there are some terrible mothers out there? it makes no sense at all.

Its up to us to be proud of using the name of Christ and be a GOOD example, and I for one will never ever deny what I am and call myself the weird name of 'ex Christian', especially if its because I think myself 'above' and 'more knowledgeable'  than the rest of Christs body an that they need me to teach them because they have it all wrong.  WHat arrogance  ::frown::.

He doesnt know what no one else knows, he merely has his own opinions and ideas on what the Bible says, as we all do. Mclee your beliefs and opinions and understandings are just as valid as his, its just that you have far more humility. I have often been impressed by your posts.     

Have you also noticed that he appears to ignore the verses and views from the women here? Maybe he thinks we are not knowledgeable enough for him, and yet Jesus even says 'let the little children come to me for the kingdom of Heaven belongs to such as these',  so Jesus thinks differently, knowledge to Him means little, He is concerned with our hearts and our love and our  passion for Him, wanting to be near Him and enjoy Him.  ::nodding::

I thank you for respectful comments concerning some of my posts.  About being proud of who we are, I am  proud to  saved and a follower of Christ. My favorite scripture I am going to put on a T-shirt Is " I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ for it is the word of God unto Salvation". You see I am just as proud of who I am as you. How ever when I see Christianity to day with all the false beliefs and doctrines of men. Big business and the use of every kind of worldly drag in I fail see I can be proud to identify with that.

I say our faith that is true first begins on  our knees in our prayer closet. I could never identify with I'm good Baptist or Methodist, or catholic.  I come here and see a theological think tank where we debate our theological skills. This is just what this fellow is doing. I say I didn't have to go  to mechanics school to learn every nut and bolt of the engine to own and drive a car. I am just a simple minded man yet I know I cn drive my car just as well as the next. I left training school long long ago. The most valuable things we can have are very simple when it comes to salvation." For God so loves the world that He gave his only begotten Son that whomsoever believes upon HIm shall nt perish but have ever lasting life." Simple   ::tippinghat::

Thanks for the reply mclee, my thoughts on what you said are, isnt that all the more reason for us to show the world that not all Christians are bad? Not to used some silly term such as an 'ex Christian' which no one,  Christian or not, will have any idea what its about.   
Of course we never hear about the billions of decent honest believers who are quietly getting on with life, praying, reading their bibles, loving others, loving God, and doing their best. I have to say I have known and know so many lovely Christians, I dont see what the op sees in the churches at all, I see groups of Christians worshipping God and doing their best to live as Christs body here on earth. People in churches having to be different from the world around, and shine more as things get darker.

Far from rejecting my brothers and sisters because they are not as 'I' think they should be, and from separating myself form them(which we are told NOT to do),far from thinking arrogantly that 'I' alone must educate them on all their many mistakes and faults, because they apparently are no where near what the early church was like,we are supposed to love and support each other in our weaknesses and be part of Christs body on earth. We are part of a Gods army, we need each other.

AS I see it, calling myself an 'ex christian; is letting satan win. I am a Christian and proud of it and I want to be identified as such. I want to be identified with the billions of other believers who have lived and who are living now, and I wont let the fact that there are some bad apples in the bunch scare me off from using Christs name.  ::shrug:: 

doorknocker,

You asked if I can produce 2 or 3 scripture/verses that clearly defined Sin as transgression of Law. This is easy:

1John 3:4: 'Whoever commits Sin, transgresses the Law: because Sin is transgression of the Law.'

That's point-blank. Have you consciously sinned recently? Or should I say, have you offended the Law recently?

Daniel 9:11: 'Yes, all Israel have transgressed your Law.'

Pretty straight forward? Consistent? Yes. One more?

Lamentations 3:42: 'We have transgressed and have rebelled...'

Transgressed and rebelled against what? The Law.

Those are easy FT references. Let's test my rule of consistency and see if NT compliments:

Acts 1:25: ".....from which Judas by TRANSGRESSION fell....."

Judas stole and caused an innocent man to be murdered. Are there any LAWS against such in your Bible? Yes, and they're easy to find

So, it's consistent from first half to second. How is Christianity defining Sin today? Some Christian earlier said Sin is unbelief and disobedience. That's as far as Christianity will take it but noticed how that person only gave you the half. Because when you start connecting these subjects to Law, the Christian religion will decline from acknowledgement. You have to start asking why that is. It's red flags when you start investigating the validity of Christianity's doctrines. Don't be afraid to ask those hard questions--that turn out to have simple biblical answers.

You asked, 'Sin is the transgression of which Law?'

Simply: Read your Torah and it'll be obviously written in plain English.

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 13:25:50
doorknocker,

You asked if I can produce 2 or 3 scripture/verses that clearly defined Sin as transgression of Law. This is easy:

1John 3: 'Whoever commits Sin, transgresses the Law: because Sin is transgression of the Law.'

That's point-blank. Have you consciously sinned recently? Or should I say, have you offended the Law recently?

Daniel 9:11: 'Yes, all Israel have transgressed your Law.'

Pretty straight forward? Consistent? Yes. One more?

Lamentations 3:42: 'We have transgressed and have rebelled...'

Transgressed and rebelled against what? The Law.

Those are easy FT references. Let's test my rule of consistency and see if NT compliments:

Acts 1:25: ".....from which Judas by TRANSGRESSION fell....."

Judas stole and caused an innocent man to be murdered. Are there any LAWS against such in your Bible? Yes, and they're easy to find

So, it's consistent from first half to second. How is Christianity defining Sin today? Some Christian earlier said Sin is rebellion and disobedience. That's as far as Christianity will take it but noticed how that person only gave you the half. Because when you start connecting these subjects to Law, the Christian religion will decline from acknowledgement. You have to start asking why that is. It's red flags when you start investigating the validity of Christianity's doctrines. Don't be afraid to ask those hard questions--that turn out to have simple biblical answers.

You asked, 'Sin is the transgression of which Law?'

Simply: Read your Torah and it'll be obviously written in plain English.

can you tell me why this matter so much to you? Why its so vitally important to you that you try and persuade us that you have all the answers?
The fact is that Jesus died for us so that we can have our sins wiped away. How you or I define sin makes no difference to that. God says that we have ALL fallen short, therefore we ALL need Jesus to forgive us from our sins. Arguing/discussing exactly what is and isnt sin changes nothing, and I think that most of us are well aware what sin is in our own lives. 

chosenone,

I would like to call your Faith into question.

Our bibles tell us to be ready to give an answer to every man who asks a reason for your Faith. Are you prepared for me or no?

But one rule between you and me:

No commentary on each person's character or persona. Strict focus on Bible and Christian teachings. No personal shots fired. And lastly show me the same courtesy RB and Layceers has shown so far.

Deal?

There's some things I'm dying to ask you.

I would like to call your Faith into question.

What is the point of doing so?  Are you trying to prove to people they are not saved? 

Our bibles tell us to be ready to give an answer to every man who asks a reason for your Faith

1 Peter 3 :15 but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 13:50:22
chosenone,

I would like to call your Faith into question.

Our bibles tell us to be ready to give an answer to every man who asks a reason for your Faith. Are you prepared for me or no?

But one rule between you and me:

No commentary on each person's character or persona. Strict focus on Bible and Christian teachings. No personal shots fired. And lastly show me the same courtesy RB and Layceers has shown so far.

Deal?

There's some things I'm dying to ask you.

You may want to revisit Rule 1.5

: chosenone  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 13:20:25

: mclees8  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 05:52:41

: chosenone  Mon Nov 30, 2015 - 22:12:39

: mclees8  Mon Nov 30, 2015 - 18:06:05
I agree with Covkeeper  maybe on the point of being an X Christian . As he I no longer consider myself a Christian in the sense the word has become so cheap in the modern-day organized traditional church system.  Don't get me wrong I also agree with Chosen that there are many  followers of Christ in the orders. It's the orders that is the problem. Names that divide us into categories of beliefs.  I'm not sure what Cov is wanting to do. I don't count myself as any brain child of the scriptures but I don't consider myself as one who thinks he knows when he actually knows nothing. Still many here can dance circles around me with their  knowledge. What I have been given is a strong and reasonable  understanding having been a believer for thirty five years. I have seen a lot and the Lord has shown me a lot. So just what is your drive Cov that you thing you know that no one else knows. 


So Sorry my reply should have left back on the first page.

For myself I dont think that we should ever deny what we are, Christians, just because some who use that name are a bad example. Should I say that I am an 'ex woman' because some women are awful?OR 'ex mother' because there are some terrible mothers out there? it makes no sense at all.

Its up to us to be proud of using the name of Christ and be a GOOD example, and I for one will never ever deny what I am and call myself the weird name of 'ex Christian', especially if its because I think myself 'above' and 'more knowledgeable'  than the rest of Christs body an that they need me to teach them because they have it all wrong.  WHat arrogance  ::frown::.

He doesnt know what no one else knows, he merely has his own opinions and ideas on what the Bible says, as we all do. Mclee your beliefs and opinions and understandings are just as valid as his, its just that you have far more humility. I have often been impressed by your posts.     

Have you also noticed that he appears to ignore the verses and views from the women here? Maybe he thinks we are not knowledgeable enough for him, and yet Jesus even says 'let the little children come to me for the kingdom of Heaven belongs to such as these',  so Jesus thinks differently, knowledge to Him means little, He is concerned with our hearts and our love and our  passion for Him, wanting to be near Him and enjoy Him.  ::nodding::

I thank you for respectful comments concerning some of my posts.  About being proud of who we are, I am  proud to  saved and a follower of Christ. My favorite scripture I am going to put on a T-shirt Is " I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ for it is the word of God unto Salvation". You see I am just as proud of who I am as you. How ever when I see Christianity to day with all the false beliefs and doctrines of men. Big business and the use of every kind of worldly drag in I fail see I can be proud to identify with that.

I say our faith that is true first begins on  our knees in our prayer closet. I could never identify with I'm good Baptist or Methodist, or catholic.  I come here and see a theological think tank where we debate our theological skills. This is just what this fellow is doing. I say I didn't have to go  to mechanics school to learn every nut and bolt of the engine to own and drive a car. I am just a simple minded man yet I know I cn drive my car just as well as the next. I left training school long long ago. The most valuable things we can have are very simple when it comes to salvation." For God so loves the world that He gave his only begotten Son that whomsoever believes upon HIm shall nt perish but have ever lasting life." Simple   ::tippinghat::

Thanks for the reply mclee, my thoughts on what you said are, isnt that all the more reason for us to show the world that not all Christians are bad? Not to used some silly term such as an 'ex Christian' which no one,  Christian or not, will have any idea what its about.   
Of course we never hear about the billions of decent honest believers who are quietly getting on with life, praying, reading their bibles, loving others, loving God, and doing their best. I have to say I have known and know so many lovely Christians, I dont see what the op sees in the churches at all, I see groups of Christians worshipping God and doing their best to live as Christs body here on earth. People in churches having to be different from the world around, and shine more as things get darker.

Far from rejecting my brothers and sisters because they are not as 'I' think they should be, and from separating myself form them(which we are told NOT to do),far from thinking arrogantly that 'I' alone must educate them on all their many mistakes and faults, because they apparently are no where near what the early church was like,we are supposed to love and support each other in our weaknesses and be part of Christs body on earth. We are part of a Gods army, we need each other.

AS I see it, calling myself an 'ex christian; is letting satan win. I am a Christian and proud of it and I want to be identified as such. I want to be identified with the billions of other believers who have lived and who are living now, and I wont let the fact that there are some bad apples in the bunch scare me off from using Christs name.  ::shrug::

I am not trying to put a trip on good believers because I Believe I said I agreed with you on that point. Its the fact that the church has become more like smorgasbord Christianity. While I was still in the assemblies of God I had a pastor who put it this way once. It went like this, " one is asked are you a Christian. The fellow then says, of course I m a Christian Im and American. You see the world has come to the place that with all this variety club that Christianity has become just another religion in the world amongst many religions
I want to identify with the onfire bunch in the early church. I would also say that earliest of the believers that came out of Pentecost had no name because Jesus nor the apostles gave the church a name. Im not sure how much time had passed before people in Antioch gave the believers the name Christian, and they were not of the believers. Those out side of the church the believers the name Christians.

This could be a whole book before it's over and I am not trying to attack the true and the blue believer's you call your Christian brothers. If you want to call your self Christian fine and I don't go around bragging about things like EX Christian. I just saw it from my own perspective.
 
Have an errand to run for now but God bless and be the Christian you can be. Maybe we could talk again some time about it.    ::smile::

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 13:50:22
chosenone,

I would like to call your Faith into question.

Our bibles tell us to be ready to give an answer to every man who asks a reason for your Faith. Are you prepared for me or no?

But one rule between you and me:

No commentary on each person's character or persona. Strict focus on Bible and Christian teachings. No personal shots fired. And lastly show me the same courtesy RB and Layceers has shown so far.

Deal?

There's some things I'm dying to ask you.

call my faith into question? Okay, how is that not rude and offensive? How is that NOT a commentary on my character and persona?

MeMyself,

You asked why I want to call her Faith into question. It's not so much her but Christian teachings altogether. If she keeps talking on my post, I'm kinda led to believe she's somewhat knowledgeable. And didn't I say I only wanted to talk to knowledgeable Christians? And didn't I ask her not to reply on my Post if she has nothing Bible related to contribute?

If she is confident in her convictions, I'd like to see if she's considered some things I've seem as detrimental in that Religion as far as doctrines.

Normally on sites, Moderators stay in the background--quiet.

Am I trying to prove people aren't saved?

Simply, no.

: mclees8  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 14:26:14

: chosenone  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 13:20:25

: mclees8  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 05:52:41

: chosenone  Mon Nov 30, 2015 - 22:12:39

: mclees8  Mon Nov 30, 2015 - 18:06:05
I agree with Covkeeper  maybe on the point of being an X Christian . As he I no longer consider myself a Christian in the sense the word has become so cheap in the modern-day organized traditional church system.  Don't get me wrong I also agree with Chosen that there are many  followers of Christ in the orders. It's the orders that is the problem. Names that divide us into categories of beliefs.  I'm not sure what Cov is wanting to do. I don't count myself as any brain child of the scriptures but I don't consider myself as one who thinks he knows when he actually knows nothing. Still many here can dance circles around me with their  knowledge. What I have been given is a strong and reasonable  understanding having been a believer for thirty five years. I have seen a lot and the Lord has shown me a lot. So just what is your drive Cov that you thing you know that no one else knows. 


So Sorry my reply should have left back on the first page.

For myself I dont think that we should ever deny what we are, Christians, just because some who use that name are a bad example. Should I say that I am an 'ex woman' because some women are awful?OR 'ex mother' because there are some terrible mothers out there? it makes no sense at all.

Its up to us to be proud of using the name of Christ and be a GOOD example, and I for one will never ever deny what I am and call myself the weird name of 'ex Christian', especially if its because I think myself 'above' and 'more knowledgeable'  than the rest of Christs body an that they need me to teach them because they have it all wrong.  WHat arrogance  ::frown::.

He doesnt know what no one else knows, he merely has his own opinions and ideas on what the Bible says, as we all do. Mclee your beliefs and opinions and understandings are just as valid as his, its just that you have far more humility. I have often been impressed by your posts.     

Have you also noticed that he appears to ignore the verses and views from the women here? Maybe he thinks we are not knowledgeable enough for him, and yet Jesus even says 'let the little children come to me for the kingdom of Heaven belongs to such as these',  so Jesus thinks differently, knowledge to Him means little, He is concerned with our hearts and our love and our  passion for Him, wanting to be near Him and enjoy Him.  ::nodding::

I thank you for respectful comments concerning some of my posts.  About being proud of who we are, I am  proud to  saved and a follower of Christ. My favorite scripture I am going to put on a T-shirt Is " I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ for it is the word of God unto Salvation". You see I am just as proud of who I am as you. How ever when I see Christianity to day with all the false beliefs and doctrines of men. Big business and the use of every kind of worldly drag in I fail see I can be proud to identify with that.

I say our faith that is true first begins on  our knees in our prayer closet. I could never identify with I'm good Baptist or Methodist, or catholic.  I come here and see a theological think tank where we debate our theological skills. This is just what this fellow is doing. I say I didn't have to go  to mechanics school to learn every nut and bolt of the engine to own and drive a car. I am just a simple minded man yet I know I cn drive my car just as well as the next. I left training school long long ago. The most valuable things we can have are very simple when it comes to salvation." For God so loves the world that He gave his only begotten Son that whomsoever believes upon HIm shall nt perish but have ever lasting life." Simple   ::tippinghat::

Thanks for the reply mclee, my thoughts on what you said are, isnt that all the more reason for us to show the world that not all Christians are bad? Not to used some silly term such as an 'ex Christian' which no one,  Christian or not, will have any idea what its about.   
Of course we never hear about the billions of decent honest believers who are quietly getting on with life, praying, reading their bibles, loving others, loving God, and doing their best. I have to say I have known and know so many lovely Christians, I dont see what the op sees in the churches at all, I see groups of Christians worshipping God and doing their best to live as Christs body here on earth. People in churches having to be different from the world around, and shine more as things get darker.

Far from rejecting my brothers and sisters because they are not as 'I' think they should be, and from separating myself form them(which we are told NOT to do),far from thinking arrogantly that 'I' alone must educate them on all their many mistakes and faults, because they apparently are no where near what the early church was like,we are supposed to love and support each other in our weaknesses and be part of Christs body on earth. We are part of a Gods army, we need each other.

AS I see it, calling myself an 'ex christian; is letting satan win. I am a Christian and proud of it and I want to be identified as such. I want to be identified with the billions of other believers who have lived and who are living now, and I wont let the fact that there are some bad apples in the bunch scare me off from using Christs name.  ::shrug::

I am not trying to put a trip on good believers because I Believe I said I agreed with you on that point. Its the fact that the church has become more like smorgasbord Christianity. While I was still in the assemblies of God I had a pastor who put it this way once. It went like this, " one is asked are you a Christian. The fellow then says, of course I m a Christian Im and American. You see the world has come to the place that with all this variety club that Christianity has become just another religion in the world amongst many religions
I want to identify with the onfire bunch in the early church. I would also say that earliest of the believers that came out of Pentecost had no name because Jesus nor the apostles gave the church a name. Im not sure how much time had passed before people in Antioch gave the believers the name Christian, and they were not of the believers. Those out side of the church the believers the name Christians.

This could be a whole book before it's over and I am not trying to attack the true and the blue believer's you call your Christian brothers. If you want to call your self Christian fine and I don't go around bragging about things like EX Christian. I just saw it from my own perspective.
 
Have an errand to run for now but God bless and be the Christian you can be. Maybe we could talk again some time about it.    ::smile::

Hi again
to be honest, mclee things are very different where I live in the UK. Especially in the last 40-50 years.Few would be daft enough to call themselves christian unless they are. Its a pretty secular country now and Christians are NOT well thought of generally, so only true believers or mad men would give themselves that name. Tony Blair was told NOT to mention His catholic faith when he was prime minister and Christian members of the govt are rare. People listen far more to famous atheists, pop stars, actors and actresses or tv stars that any one in the church. Christian values are more and more being ignored and moral values go down and down.
   

chosenone,

Sooo, you think it's offensive for people who aren't Christian to ask you directly about Christian things? Are you serious?

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 14:44:19
MeMyself,

You asked why I want to call her Faith into question. It's not so much her but Christian teachings altogether. If she keeps talking on my post, I'm kinda led to believe she's somewhat knowledgeable. And didn't I say I only wanted to talk to knowledgeable Christians? And didn't I ask her not to reply on my Post if she has nothing Bible related to contribute?

If she is confident in her convictions, I'd like to see if she's considered some things I've seem as detrimental in that Religion as far as doctrines.

Normally on sites, Moderators stay in the background--quiet.

Am I trying to prove people aren't saved?

Simply, no.

This site isnt the same as other sites, and anyone is allowed to take part here mod or not.   

I am 100% confident in my Lord and saviour Jesus Christ. Its He who I follow and He who I trust.

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 14:47:25
chosenone,

Sooo, you think it's offensive for people who aren't Christian to ask you directly about Christian things? Are you serious?

Ummmm where did I say that ??? ::headscratch:: ::pondering:: ::eek::

Quite the opposite, I believe we should always be ready to talk to anyone about our faith in Jesus Christ. 

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 14:44:19
MeMyself,

You asked why I want to call her Faith into question. It's not so much her but Christian teachings altogether. If she keeps talking on my post, I'm kinda led to believe she's somewhat knowledgeable. And didn't I say I only wanted to talk to knowledgeable Christians? And didn't I ask her not to reply on my Post if she has nothing Bible related to contribute?

If she is confident in her convictions, I'd like to see if she's considered some things I've seem as detrimental in that Religion as far as doctrines.

Then say that.  That you are calling into question what she has been taught and even her convictions, but to say you call into question her faith is akin to saying that you find hers to be fake or faulty and that DOES violate the board rules here.

Normally on sites, Moderators stay in the background--quiet.

Well, get used to it, here they are active and welcome part of the board.

Am I trying to prove people aren't saved?

Simply, no.

Taking your word for it.  Don't see any other reason to call into question someone elses faith. ::shrug::

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 13:50:22
chosenone,

I would like to call your Faith into question.

This is a violation of the forum rules, as  has already been pointed out.  You are not permitted to call another user's faith into question.  Perhaps you just phrased your comment wrong, but on the surface it is a violation of rule 1.5.

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 14:44:19
Normally on sites, Moderators stay in the background--quiet.

As you well know, the moderators on this site to do lurk in the background.  They are active participants.  They have been entrusted by the administrator to maintain order and try to keep things from getting heated...or, when things do get heated, to take measures to cool things down a little.

Please go and re-read the rules before coming back to this thread.  I think they will clear up any remaining misunderstandings.

Thank you.

Bondservant,

As you can see, I've clarified what I meant by that saying: it's not so much her Faith but more her understanding of Christian doctrines, which is what's been going on the whole time with others.

Her replies about me which are clearly seen are becoming a distraction. So, when I asked a long time that she refrain from this Post, why is it not being respected?

Don't moderators have rules and etiquette to follow as well?

And as far as what moderators do, who's going to moderate the moderator who seems to be the only one on my Post getting heated and agitated?

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 14:59:02
Bondservant,

As you can see, I've clarified what I meant by that say: it's not so much her Faith but more her understanding of Christian doctrines, which is what's been going on the whole time with others.

Her replies about me which are clearly seen are becoming a distraction. So, when I asked a long time that she refrain from this Post, why is it not being respected?

Maybe because anyone is allowed to reply to anyone else? Its not up to any member to dictate who is allowed to take part in a thread, unless its in the men only or women only sections which are specifically for issues that are specific to one or the other sex.   

You know practically nothing of my understanding of Christian doctrines.

However my faith and trust are in Jesus Christ as my Lord and saviour and brother and friend.

You said
'If she is confident in her convictions, I'd like to see if she's considered some things I've seem as detrimental in that Religion as far as doctrines. '

How about you list those things and we can all discuss them. Far easier and quicker than going all round the houses and never really getting to the point.

I visit Christian sites and Christian FB groups all the time. Which is why I open my Posts the way I do. Because everywhere I go, there's always moderators who think "Moderator" is some form of Spiritual office equal to Pastor where they think they are "Watchers over peoples' souls" and they're not. Moderator is not a spiritual calling.

I get kicked off alot of Christian sites. Sometimes only after an opening post. And I'm going to tell you as God as my witness, 100% of the time, only women have a problem, the guys are cool. The women like to throw around the words: "rude", "mean", "insensitive", "arrogant", etc....This is a constant thing.

The women think that just because they feel sensitively offended, then God must feel the same way as them. God isn't that sensitive and isn't easily moved by what comes out of Man's mouth or how they articulate being that He is the Maker of the mouth.

That's the end of my rant about moderators. I'd like to peacefully continue my talk with RB and Layceers without moderators thinking they can say whatever they want just because they are the moderators.

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 15:25:58
I visit Christian sites and Christian FB groups all the time. Which is why I open my Posts the way I do. Because everywhere I go, there's always moderators who think "Moderator" is some form of Spiritual office equal to Pastor where they think they are "Watchers over peoples' souls" and they're not. Moderator is not a spiritual calling.

Rude.  Not very mature either.  That is NOT what is going on here. Sorry you don't like how things work here, maybe find someplace else to post?

I get kicked off alot of Christian sites. Sometimes only after an opening post. And I'm going to tell you as God as my witness, 100% of the time, only women have a problem, the guys are cool. The women like to throw around the words: "rude", "mean", "insensitive", "arrogant", etc....This is a constant thing.

If the shoe fits...

The women think that just because they feel sensitively offended, then God must feel the same way as them. God isn't that sensitive and isn't easily moved by what comes out of Man's mouth or how they articulate being that He is the Maker of the mouth.

That's the end of my rant about moderators. I'd like to peacefully continue my talk with RB and Layceers without moderators thinking they can say whatever they want just because they are the moderators.

Take it to PM then. You can have a nice little chat with just the three of you that way.

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 15:25:58
I visit Christian sites and Christian FB groups all the time. Which is why I open my Posts the way I do. Because everywhere I go, there's always moderators who think "Moderator" is some form of Spiritual office equal to Pastor where they think they are "Watchers over peoples' souls" and they're not. Moderator is not a spiritual calling.

I get kicked off alot of Christian sites. Sometimes only after an opening post. And I'm going to tell you as God as my witness, 100% of the time, only women have a problem, the guys are cool. The women like to throw around the words: "rude", "mean", "insensitive", "arrogant", etc....This is a constant thing.

The women think that just because they feel sensitively offended, then God must feel the same way as them. God isn't that sensitive and isn't easily moved by what comes out of Man's mouth or how they articulate being that He is the Maker of the mouth.

That's the end of my rant about moderators. I'd like to peacefully continue my talk with RB and Layceers without moderators thinking they can say whatever they want just because they are the moderators.

Women are far more intuitive and can pick up things like attitudes far more easily than men.

However calling someones faith into question is surely the ultimate in offensive?

There will be a reason why you are kicked off a lot of sites. Is that the reason why you are being vague here and not openly stating your case on what you think is so terribly wrong with the Christian church? It would be far more honest if you would say what you mean and not beat round the bush and avoid committing yourself.

A challenge, clearly give a list of the ways you think we are so terribly wrong and why, and then people here can discuss it and give their beliefs and opinions in return.  Or would that be just too easy?

: chosenone  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 15:36:04
Women are far more intuitive and can pick up things like attitudes far more easily than men.

Sometimes you are so full of it that I am astounded.

chosenone,

I have to ease into these conversations slowly because sites like this do ban me if I come out with my "big guns" early in. (Theres some very stubborn Christian sites out there that'll ban you even if you are a Christian and you believe only slightly different from them. As a matter of fact, I started out getting kicked off of sites while I was still a Christian lol!) I'll get called herectic, devil, etc...and all kinds of other things before I get kicked off. And this is without breaking any rules.

You can ask me questions. Not a bunch at one time because then I won't answer. But if you Post a direct question to me, I'll readily respond. If you ask why I'm not a Christian anymore, I'll say I've already answered that. If you ask about baptism, I've already answered that(still more to say). Just ask something.

I'll let you ask me this Q. But the only reason I've avoided putting it out there ahead of time is because I still kinda need to see how tolerant this "Christian" site is. I do see it's been asked before but I was busy addressing others. Ask this:

"What is a Christian to you?"

Also, a woman's intuition isn't a flawless gift from God and definitely dangerous if you confuse that with spiritual discernment as women I've encountered on sites do.

I've been in a good mood ever since I came here. I've been riding a high of anticipation since the first replier. You don't know people's attitudes 100% because you've never spent any real time with them to know their mannerisms. I'm an inner-city guy, I run into many people from rural areas such as my wife who had to learn my speech overtime because she wasn't used to my mannerisms.

All that to say, your intuition isn't God's prescriptive measure for how you judge a person's spirit. So, for a woman to bank on that, is an error in judgment or in the way of error.

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 16:32:56
chosenone,

I have to ease into these conversations slowly because sites like this do ban me if I come out with my "big guns" early in. (Theres some very stubborn Christian sites out there that'll ban you even if you are a Christian and you believe only slightly different from them. As a matter of fact, I started out getting kicked off of sites while I was still a Christian lol!) I'll get called herectic, devil, etc...and all kinds of other things before I get kicked off. And this is without breaking any rules.

You can ask me questions. Not a bunch at one time because then I won't answer. But if you Post a direct question to me, I'll readily respond. If you ask why I'm not a Christian anymore, I'll say I've already answered that. If you ask about baptism, I've already answered that(still more to say). Just ask something.

I'll let you ask me this Q. But the only reason I've avoided putting it out there ahead of time is because I still kinda need to see how tolerant this "Christian" site is. I do see it's been asked before but I was busy addressing others. Ask this:

"What is a Christian to you?"

If you use the bible to show your beliefs, you can do pretty much what you want.

Go to the Theology Forum.  Start a Topic on a popular doctrine you want to deconstruct, and provide scriptural basis.  It literally is that easy.  And I think it will provide better conversation that your current approach.

Covenant keeper, that was my point, that you are not wanting to state up front honestly what you disagreements are with the Christian church.Its all a bit cloak and dagger right now isnt it. 
Instead of asking us questions, how about you state what the main disagreements are? Far more honest and straight forward.
Either a list or one at a time. Then we will all know where we are and whoever wants to can discuss it. We are pretty lenient here, as long as the main beliefs of Christianity as stated in the nicene creed are adhered to.

Texas Conservative,

I don't intend my talks to be heavy enough for the Theology Forum. This is light talk which is why I haven't littered my replies with the whole BibleGateway(exaggeration). This Post and the topics that appear aren't going to be deep.

I know where to go for deep discussions.

: Texas Conservative  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 16:29:25

: chosenone  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 15:36:04
Women are far more intuitive and can pick up things like attitudes far more easily than men.

Sometimes you are so full of it that I am astounded.

Its a well known fact that women are more intuitive. I thought everyone knew that.  ::shrug::

: chosenone  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 15:36:04

Women are far more intuitive and can pick up things like attitudes far more easily than men.

Maybe you have forgotten your mother Eve. Judy whether men or women, the key is which of the two are spiritual minded, sex matters little. The word of God plainly said that women are the weaker vessel of the two. You are saying something that you cannot prove with the word of God. There are some spiritual minded women on this forum, as well as men, but for you to say what you just said is said without very much wisdom based upon the scriptures.

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 16:49:06
Texas Conservative,

I don't intend my talks to be heavy enough for the Theology Forum. This is light talk which is why I haven't littered my replies with the whole BibleGateway(exaggeration). This Post and the topics that appear aren't going to be deep.

I know where to go for deep discussions.

I thought that was what you wanted Covkeeper , in depth discussions with like minded people?

What do you hope to achieve? To persuade people to your way of thinking? For more people to call themselves ex Christians?

: RB  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 16:50:26

: chosenone  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 15:36:04

Women are far more intuitive and can pick up things like attitudes far more easily than men.

Maybe you have forgotten your mother Eve. Judy whether men or women, the key is which of the two are spiritual minded, sex matters little. The word of God plainly said that women are the weaker vessel of the two. You are saying something that you cannot prove with the word of God. There are some spiritual minded women on this forum, as well as men, but for you to say what you just said is said without very much wisdom based upon the scriptures.

  I wasnt talking about spiritual discernment or anything like that, but intuition concerning people and situations generally. 
Eve wasnt my mother Red, but a lady who lived a very very long time ago.

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 16:32:56I have to ease into these conversations slowly because sites like this do ban me if I come out with my "big guns" early in

This forum is very merciful, so I would suggest that you go with what you think is truth. If it is indeed truth, then there will be no problem. That's not to say, that all will agree, but I do believe that a person should be totally UP FRONT with what they have to say, and trust God for result.

Ok chosenone,

Here is the one word that get's me banned from Christian sites:

LAW....because mainstream Christianity says it's done away with...and it's not.

It's threatens the whole foundation of Christianity and I'll get kicked off before I even get a chance to show why the Christian religion destroys the ancient Faith because of that. You have no idea the hostility that comes because of this even down to mysterious threats through email.

Do you want to go down this path of talking to me about that, does anyone?

: RB  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 16:56:38

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 16:32:56I have to ease into these conversations slowly because sites like this do ban me if I come out with my "big guns" early in

This forum is very merciful, so I would suggest that you go with what you think is truth. If it is indeed truth, then there will be no problem. That not to say, that all will agree, but I do believe that a person should be totally UP FRONT with what they have to say, and trust God for result.

::amen!::

As you say if its truth and Biblical then there will be no problem.

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 16:59:25
Ok chosenone,

Here is the one word that get's me banned from Christian sites:

LAW....because mainstream Christianity says it's done away with...and it's not.

It's threatens the whole foundation of Christianity and I'll get kicked off before I even get a chance to show why the Christian religion destroys the ancient Faith because of that. You have no idea the hostility that comes because of this even down to mysterious threats through email.

Do you want to go down this path of talking to me about that, does anyone?

Oy gosh.  That path has been trod down and back again that it more a rut than a walkway any more. Nothing new under the sun, don't you know?  ::eatingpopcorn:

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 16:59:25
Ok chosenone,

Here is the one word that get's me banned from Christian sites:

LAW....because mainstream Christianity says it's done away with...and it's not.

It's threatens the whole foundation of Christianity and I'll get kicked off before I even get a chance to show why the Christian religion destroys the ancient Faith because of that. You have no idea the hostility that comes because of this even down to mysterious threats through email.

Do you want to go down this path of talking to me about that, does anyone?

If you use scripture the very worst that will happen is that it will get relegated to the Non-Traditional Theology forum.

: chosenone  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 16:53:40Eve wasnt my mother Red, but a lady who lived a very very long time ago.

Judy, what does Eve mean? Yes she IS your mother, and Adam is your father, based upon the word of God Almighty.

I wasnt talking about spiritual discernment or anything like that, but intuition concerning people and situations generally. 

I do not care how you spin, turn it, or consider it~women are the weaker vessel, of the two. Weaker, means both are, only women more so. That's not my understanding, but God's testimony of the two. I'll go with God's witness concerning the this. Mama Eve was not too wise concerning the wiles of Satan, was she? 

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 16:59:25
Ok chosenone,

Here is the one word that get's me banned from Christian sites:

LAW....because mainstream Christianity says it's done away with...and it's not.

It's threatens the whole foundation of Christianity and I'll get kicked off before I even get a chance to show why the Christian religion destroys the ancient Faith because of that. You have no idea the hostility that comes because of this even down to mysterious threats through email.

Do you want to go down this path of talking to me about that, does anyone?

OK. you will actually find that this topic has been talked about and discussed here many many times openly, with many opinions and beliefs on both sides.
I cant see how that can threaten the whole foundation of Christianity though, as the foundation is surely Jesus Christ and who He is and what He has done for us. 

You wont be banned for talking about the law.

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 16:59:25LAW....because mainstream Christianity says it's done away with...and it's not. Do you want to go down this path of talking to me about that, does anyone?

Let it roll my friend, let it roll. We have people here all time that discuss this very subject, so please say what you believe is truth.

: RB  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 17:03:17

: chosenone  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 16:53:40Eve wasnt my mother Red, but a lady who lived a very very long time ago.

Judy, what does Eve mean? Yes she IS your mother, and Adam is your father, based upon the word of God Almighty.

I wasnt talking about spiritual discernment or anything like that, but intuition concerning people and situations generally. 

I do not care how you spin, turn it, or consider it~women are the weaker vessel, of the two. Weaker, means both are, only women more so. That's not my understanding, but God's testimony of the two. I'll go with God's witness concerning the this. Mama Eve was not too wise concerning the wiles of Satan, was she?

No..she wasn't...and I can see how women are more easily swayed by every shifting sand, and its mostly based in fear.

In my marriage, I am more intuitive...I am quicker to notice the nuances of a changed expression, a flash in the eyes, a heart that is on the verge of blowing up or giving up, but my dh is better at noticing what will sweep me over the edge into the abyss if that makes sense?  I am motivated by emotion, and can have that used against me, to manipulate me and bring me (an potentially family) to my demise...he is not as easily swayed by what I am, and can see the dangers that my strength brings with it, on the other side of it, and he has stood in the gap when I needed him to say "NO!"

Same for him with the other side of his strengths, and I can see what he cannot.

MeMyself,

I told you guys early on, I'm nothing like what you've encountered before. Far from it because I've probably seen on others what you think you're gonna see in me.

But you sit back with your popcorn and see how I operate. I promise it'll be worth your time.

chosenone,

I know, I've been on plenty of sites and I've seen how they turn out...

But like I told you all I'm nothing like them.

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 17:10:19
MeMyself,

I told you guys early on, I'm nothing like what you've encountered before. Far from it because I've probably seen on others what you think you're gonna see in me.

But you sit back with your popcorn and see how I operate. I promise it'll be worth your time.

Ecclesiastes 1:9 What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.

I think, perhaps you think too highly of things that should not be thought so highly of...

::eatingpopcorn:

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 17:10:19
MeMyself,

I told you guys early on, I'm nothing like what you've encountered before. Far from it because I've probably seen on others what you think you're gonna see in me.

But you sit back with your popcorn and see how I operate. I promise it'll be worth your time.

That's fine, you can be the General.  Just realize playa, The Brigadier General is me.

: RB  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 17:03:17

: chosenone  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 16:53:40Eve wasnt my mother Red, but a lady who lived a very very long time ago.

Judy, what does Eve mean? Yes she IS your mother, and Adam is your father, based upon the word of God Almighty.

I wasnt talking about spiritual discernment or anything like that, but intuition concerning people and situations generally. 

I do not care how you spin, turn it, or consider it~women are the weaker vessel, of the two. Weaker, means both are, only women more so. That's not my understanding, but God's testimony of the two. I'll go with God's witness concerning the this. Mama Eve was not too wise concerning the wiles of Satan, was she?

Women have their strengths and weaknesses and men have theirs, one of most women's strengths is their intuition. Generally its not one of men's strengths, they have other strengths that woman dont have. That's why when men and women marry, together they can have all the attributes of God as a whole. My husband freely admits that he hasnt got a clue when it comes to picking up on things that are going on, or on what is happening with the people around him, yet he has many other strengths that I dont have. 

Is it normal to blame all women for what one did? Or all men for what one did? Seem incredibly unfair.

I have to give a disclaimer about myself, first.

People who go down this path with me, with Bible open, do not stay Christian long. This is no exaggeration. People over 30yrs into Christianity have converted away from it to a more purer Form due to my method of conveying information. I will strictly use KJV and may only reference ESV once or twice or so(idk, we'll see).

I'm just warning you all ahead of time.

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 17:10:19
MeMyself,

I told you guys early on, I'm nothing like what you've encountered before. Far from it because I've probably seen on others what you think you're gonna see in me.

But you sit back with your popcorn and see how I operate. I promise it'll be worth your time.

As long as you accept and realise that your ideas and theories may well not be accepted or agreed with. As I said we have discussed this a lot and all the different sides have all given their verses and thoughts and beliefs. 

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 17:18:40
I have to give a disclaimer about myself, first.

People who go down this path with me, with Bible open, do not stay Christian long. This is no exaggeration. People over 30yrs into Christianity have converted away from it to a more purer Form due to my method of conveying information. I will strictly use KJV and may only reference ESV once or twice or so(idk, we'll see).

I'm just warning you all ahead of time.

A disclaimer from me also, I will never stop using the name of Jesus Christ in how I describe myself as his follower. It would be like denying Jesus Himself.

: MeMyself  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 17:08:57No..she wasn't..

I'll go with God's witness of this.

2nd Corinthians 11:3...Reads~ "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."

Again it is written:

1st Timothy 2:14....Reads~"And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."

You said:

In my marriage, I am more intuitive.

MeMyself, there will be exception in every marriage, and I will not disagree with this~but, exceptions only proves that the rule stands! Sure you can find exceptions to the rule, I have seen this in my life time, but, I have seen the rule much more.  Good night~ tomorrow, the Lord willing.

Cov, when are you going to stop showboating and get on with it?

Also,

Because the historical Jesus is Jewish, I will only refer to Him as Yeshua from now because that is the name given to Him at birth and only call Him Jesus when conveying how Christianity views Him so you will see the difference. 

I will also place the Title Rabbi before His name because the historical "Jesus" is a Rabbi.

I will also refer to Paul by his Hebrew name Shaul. I'll add the Title Rav at the beginning as well because it is said that he also is a rabbi.

All this, so things can stay in their proper frame biblically.

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 17:29:56
Also,

Because the historical Jesus is Jewish, I will only refer to Him as Yeshua from now because that is the name given to Him at birth and only call Him Jesus when conveying how Christianity views Him so you will see the difference. 

I will also place the Title Rabbi before His name because the historical "Jesus" is a Rabbi.

I will also refer to Paul by his Hebrew name Shaul. I'll add the Title Rav at the beginning as well because it is said that he also is a rabbi.

All this, so things can stay in their proper frame biblically.

I hope you quote the Koine Greek

mommydi,

The wait is over. It's begun.

: Texas Conservative  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 17:31:17

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 17:29:56
Also,

Because the historical Jesus is Jewish, I will only refer to Him as Yeshua from now because that is the name given to Him at birth and only call Him Jesus when conveying how Christianity views Him so you will see the difference. 

I will also place the Title Rabbi before His name because the historical "Jesus" is a Rabbi.

I will also refer to Paul by his Hebrew name Shaul. I'll add the Title Rav at the beginning as well because it is said that he also is a rabbi.

All this, so things can stay in their proper frame biblically.

I hope you quote the Koine Greek

I won't need to

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 17:33:18

: Texas Conservative  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 17:31:17

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 17:29:56
Also,

Because the historical Jesus is Jewish, I will only refer to Him as Yeshua from now because that is the name given to Him at birth and only call Him Jesus when conveying how Christianity views Him so you will see the difference. 

I will also place the Title Rabbi before His name because the historical "Jesus" is a Rabbi.

I will also refer to Paul by his Hebrew name Shaul. I'll add the Title Rav at the beginning as well because it is said that he also is a rabbi.

All this, so things can stay in their proper frame biblically.

I hope you quote the Koine Greek

I won't need to

Why not use the Bible as it was written?

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 17:29:56
Also,

Because the historical Jesus is Jewish, I will only refer to Him as Yeshua from now because that is the name given to Him at birth and only call Him Jesus when conveying how Christianity views Him so you will see the difference. 

I will also place the Title Rabbi before His name because the historical "Jesus" is a Rabbi.

I will also refer to Paul by his Hebrew name Shaul. I'll add the Title Rav at the beginning as well because it is said that he also is a rabbi.

All this, so things can stay in their proper frame biblically.

Why don't you wear a prayer shawl and Scriptural ribbons around your fingers, then? Perhaps get a pigeon outside so you can offer it before the Lord?

You really think you'll get more brownie points from the Lord by doing so? All you're doing is walking in a religious spirit, walking by a letter instead of by the Spirit. Saul's name was changed into Paul, and he fully acknowledged, accepted, and embraced it, so you're gonna insult him by acknowledging him by his former name? Not to even mention giving him a title, something he would be adamantly against.

: RB  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 17:23:13

: MeMyself  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 17:08:57No..she wasn't..

I'll go with God's witness of this.

2nd Corinthians 11:3...Reads~ "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."

Again it is written:

1st Timothy 2:14....Reads~"And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."

You said:

In my marriage, I am more intuitive.

MeMyself, there will be exception in every marriage, and I will not disagree with this~but, exceptions only proves that the rule stands! Sure you can find exceptions to the rule, I have seen this in my life time, but, I have seen the rule much more.  Good night~ tomorrow, the Lord willing.

Red, I was agreeing with your post about Eve. You said Mama Eve was not too wise concerning the wiles of Satan, was she? and I said No, she wasn't. As in, she wasn't very wise.

Also, I acknowledged MY marriage, not all marriages.  I have strength in my intuition, but it can sweep me away; my dh is the balance for that, due to his strengths, but his strengths can also sweep him away.

Texas Conservative,

Because the Bible is prodominately a Hebrew Book, why would I consult the Greek? I'll consult the Hebraic mind concerning Hebraic things.

Would you consult the Japanese for the things that are Samoan in nature? Not likely.

So, common sense and good reasoning tells me I chose the right frame.

what is the goal here?  Are you trying to point people away from Christ and to the Law for salvation?

 ::bowing::f

: LexKnight  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 17:45:17

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 17:29:56
Also,

Because the historical Jesus is Jewish, I will only refer to Him as Yeshua from now because that is the name given to Him at birth and only call Him Jesus when conveying how Christianity views Him so you will see the difference. 

I will also place the Title Rabbi before His name because the historical "Jesus" is a Rabbi.

I will also refer to Paul by his Hebrew name Shaul. I'll add the Title Rav at the beginning as well because it is said that he also is a rabbi.

All this, so things can stay in their proper frame biblically.

Why don't you wear a prayer shawl and Scriptural ribbons around your fingers, then? Perhaps get a pigeon outside so you can offer it before the Lord?

You really think you'll get more brownie points from the Lord by doing so? All you're doing is walking in a religious spirit, walking by a letter instead of by the Spirit. Saul's name was changed into Paul, and he fully acknowledged, accepted, and embraced it, so you're gonna insult him by acknowledging him by his former name? Not to even mention giving him a title, something he would be adamantly against.

These are the kind of replies I have to ignore. Don't assume anything about me. This is a mistake Christians make with me all the time.

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 18:25:44
::bowing::f

: LexKnight  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 17:45:17

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 17:29:56
Also,

Because the historical Jesus is Jewish, I will only refer to Him as Yeshua from now because that is the name given to Him at birth and only call Him Jesus when conveying how Christianity views Him so you will see the difference. 

I will also place the Title Rabbi before His name because the historical "Jesus" is a Rabbi.

I will also refer to Paul by his Hebrew name Shaul. I'll add the Title Rav at the beginning as well because it is said that he also is a rabbi.

All this, so things can stay in their proper frame biblically.

Why don't you wear a prayer shawl and Scriptural ribbons around your fingers, then? Perhaps get a pigeon outside so you can offer it before the Lord?

You really think you'll get more brownie points from the Lord by doing so? All you're doing is walking in a religious spirit, walking by a letter instead of by the Spirit. Saul's name was changed into Paul, and he fully acknowledged, accepted, and embraced it, so you're gonna insult him by acknowledging him by his former name? Not to even mention giving him a title, something he would be adamantly against.

These are the kind of replies I have to ignore. Don't assume anything about me. This is a mistake Christians make with me all the time.

Why? Why do you *have* to ignore them? They are relevant and you should be eager to give an answer, seems to me.

Cov,

Where is your scripture, or are you all bluster?

 ::giggle::

: Texas Conservative  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 18:30:45
Cov,

Where is your scripture, or are you all bluster?

Have patience, I'm working trying to talk at the same time.

1) common sense
2) good reasoning
And
3) reality

Theses are my choice weapons.

My target?:

Your conscience in light of how you been taught to understand the Bible.

Hmm...where should I start...back to baptism... (stay tuned)

: MeMyself  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 18:12:31
what is the goal here?  Are you trying to point people away from Christ and to the Law for salvation?

On the contrary, I'll bring them closer to the Messiah through the Law. You don't think that's possible because that's how Christianity trained you. Get ready to have your mind freed.

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 18:47:50

: MeMyself  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 18:12:31
what is the goal here?  Are you trying to point people away from Christ and to the Law for salvation?

On the contrary, I'll bring them closer to the Messiah through the Law. You don't think that's possible because that's how Christianity trained you. Get ready to have your mind freed.

If you mean to show that the Law points people TO Christ, great! I agree.  If you mean we are only saved through the following of it, sorry. Wrong. 

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 13:25:50
doorknocker,

You asked if I can produce 2 or 3 scripture/verses that clearly defined Sin as transgression of Law. This is easy:

1John 3:4: 'Whoever commits Sin, transgresses the Law: because Sin is transgress

ion of the Law.'

That's point-blank. Have you consciously sinned recently? Or should I say, have you offended the Law recently?

Daniel 9:11: 'Yes, all Israel have transgressed your Law.'

Pretty straight forward? Consistent? Yes. One more?

Lamentations 3:42: 'We have transgressed and have rebelled...'

Transgressed and rebelled against what? The Law.

Those are easy FT references. Let's test my rule of consistency and see if NT compliments:

Acts 1:25: ".....from which Judas by TRANSGRESSION fell....."

Judas stole and caused an innocent man to be murdered. Are there any LAWS against such in your Bible? Yes, and they're easy to find

So, it's consistent from first half to second. How is Christianity defining Sin today? Some Christian earlier said Sin is unbelief and disobedience. That's as far as Christianity will take it but noticed how that person only gave you the half. Because when you start connecting these subjects to Law, the Christian religion will decline from acknowledgement. You have to start asking why that is. It's red flags when you start investigating the validity of Christianity's doctrines. Don't be afraid to ask those hard questions--that turn out to have simple biblical answers.

You asked, 'Sin is the transgression of which Law?'

Simply: Read your Torah and it'll be obviously written in plain English.

Covkeeper34,

If you are quoting what I said, then at least do it correctly.

I asked if you can produce 2 or 3 verses/references that clearly define that sin IS 
the transgression of the law.

You  said that I asked to produce 2 or 3 scripture verses that defined Sin   AS 
transgression of Law..


There is but one verse that states that sin IS the transgression of the law.

There is lots of verse stating that people transgressed the law.



You stated in an earlier post that my definition of sin was not biblical.


What I posted was   unbelief--- disobedience


Scripture also states that anything that does not come from faith IS sin.

And

Without faith it is impossible to please God.


Would I be correct to state that unbelief is the opposite of faith?


Disobedience. ...unbiblical?

God told Adam  not to eat of a certain tree and he was disobedient.


Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world.

Now was the sin that entered into the world   disobedience?


Was this sin a transgression of the law?

As it is written.....

sin indeed was in the world before the law was given.




You ask....have you consciously sinned lately

Answer..     No


You ask...Or should I say, have you offended the Law recently?

Answer.... if you are referring to the law as His commandments,     then No.

Water Baptism:

Pay attention to what's happening at the water. Here we see John Baptist ministering repentance. What are these Hebrews repenting for according to the Bible?

They're repenting for trangressing the Covenant of God at the mouth of Moses. Sin is the trangressing of the Law, right?That baptism is a return to the Law you fell away from or NEVER KNEW.

Sin is defined in the Bible as offenses against the Law. No amount of Christian theology can cover that up.

Repentance is ALWAYS a return to the Law. The Bible gives no other definition. Christianity would have you redefine it. You doubt it? Find the consistency and use both halves of the Bible; not just the second

Now, if it's consistent and clear that BIBLICAL repentance is always a return to Law and only bad Christian theology denies that, think about what happened when you got baptised:

Notice how when you got baptised, no one told you you were being baptised into the Covenant you never knew(American Christians)? That's because you got baptised into the Christian religion; you didn't get baptised into that Covenant--like you should of.

The promises of that Covenant belong to the people of it. Christianity denies that Covenant saying it's done away with. Q:

Christians, tell me: How are you claiming the promises of a Covenant that you openly refuse? Explain that on a common sense level. But before you do, realize that as far as Covenants are concerned, its consistently true that there is not a single Covenant given that negates the previous one. Go look. That consistency only breaks down in the Christian religion but we're exposing that today.

Any thoughts?

 ::eatingpopcorn:

doorknocker,

Yes, unbelief is the opposite of believing.

Yes, disobedience was the sin that entered into the World. Disobedience to what, though?

Was that sin a trangressing of what Law, the Law of Moses? No.

Was John wrong when saying Sin is the transgression of the Law?

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 19:58:58
Water Baptism:

Pay attention to what's happening at the water. Here we see John Baptist ministering repentance. What are these Hebrews repenting for according to the Bible?

They're repenting for trangressing the Covenant of God at the mouth of Moses. Sin is the trangressing of the Law, right?That baptism is a return to the Law you fell away from or NEVER KNEW.

Sin is defined in the Bible as offenses against the Law. No amount of Christian theology can cover that up.

Repentance is ALWAYS a return to the Law. The Bible gives no other definition. Christianity would have you redefine it. You doubt it? Find the consistency and use both halves of the Bible; not just the second

Now, if it's consistent and clear that BIBLICAL repentance is always a return to Law and only bad Christian theology denies that, think about what happened when you got baptised:

Notice how when you got baptised, no one told you you were being baptised into the Covenant you never knew(American Christians)? That's because you got baptised into the Christian religion; you didn't get baptised into that Covenant--like you should of.

The promises of that Covenant belong to the people of it. Christianity denies that Covenant saying it's done away with. Q:

Christians, tell me: How are you claiming the promises of a Covenant that you openly refuse? Explain that on a common sense level. But before you do, realize that as far as Covenants are concerned, its consistently true that there is not a single Covenant given that negates the previous one. Go look. That consistency only breaks down in the Christian religion but we're exposing that today.

Any thoughts?

So, I am betting you don't eat bacon then.  Poor you.  You are missing out.

: MeMyself  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 18:49:52

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 18:47:50

: MeMyself  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 18:12:31
what is the goal here?  Are you trying to point people away from Christ and to the Law for salvation?

On the contrary, I'll bring them closer to the Messiah through the Law. You don't think that's possible because that's how Christianity trained you. Get ready to have your mind freed.

If you mean to show that the Law points people TO Christ, great! I agree.  If you mean we are only saved through the following of it, sorry. Wrong.

We'll visit that last reply later. But maybe by the time we get done, we won't have to.

: Texas Conservative  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 20:26:40

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 19:58:58
Water Baptism:

Pay attention to what's happening at the water. Here we see John Baptist ministering repentance. What are these Hebrews repenting for according to the Bible?

They're repenting for trangressing the Covenant of God at the mouth of Moses. Sin is the trangressing of the Law, right?That baptism is a return to the Law you fell away from or NEVER KNEW.

Sin is defined in the Bible as offenses against the Law. No amount of Christian theology can cover that up.

Repentance is ALWAYS a return to the Law. The Bible gives no other definition. Christianity would have you redefine it. You doubt it? Find the consistency and use both halves of the Bible; not just the second

Now, if it's consistent and clear that BIBLICAL repentance is always a return to Law and only bad Christian theology denies that, think about what happened when you got baptised:

Notice how when you got baptised, no one told you you were being baptised into the Covenant you never knew(American Christians)? That's because you got baptised into the Christian religion; you didn't get baptised into that Covenant--like you should of.

The promises of that Covenant belong to the people of it. Christianity denies that Covenant saying it's done away with. Q:

Christians, tell me: How are you claiming the promises of a Covenant that you openly refuse? Explain that on a common sense level. But before you do, realize that as far as Covenants are concerned, its consistently true that there is not a single Covenant given that negates the previous one. Go look. That consistency only breaks down in the Christian religion but we're exposing that today.

Any thoughts?

So, I am betting you don't eat bacon then.  Poor you.  You are missing out.

Lol dear Christian, just because you can cook and put it in your mouth, doesn't mean it's meant for FOOD. God in His wisdom tried to show us that.

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:10:58

: Texas Conservative  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 20:26:40

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 19:58:58
Water Baptism:

Pay attention to what's happening at the water. Here we see John Baptist ministering repentance. What are these Hebrews repenting for according to the Bible?

They're repenting for trangressing the Covenant of God at the mouth of Moses. Sin is the trangressing of the Law, right?That baptism is a return to the Law you fell away from or NEVER KNEW.

Sin is defined in the Bible as offenses against the Law. No amount of Christian theology can cover that up.

Repentance is ALWAYS a return to the Law. The Bible gives no other definition. Christianity would have you redefine it. You doubt it? Find the consistency and use both halves of the Bible; not just the second

Now, if it's consistent and clear that BIBLICAL repentance is always a return to Law and only bad Christian theology denies that, think about what happened when you got baptised:

Notice how when you got baptised, no one told you you were being baptised into the Covenant you never knew(American Christians)? That's because you got baptised into the Christian religion; you didn't get baptised into that Covenant--like you should of.

The promises of that Covenant belong to the people of it. Christianity denies that Covenant saying it's done away with. Q:

Christians, tell me: How are you claiming the promises of a Covenant that you openly refuse? Explain that on a common sense level. But before you do, realize that as far as Covenants are concerned, its consistently true that there is not a single Covenant given that negates the previous one. Go look. That consistency only breaks down in the Christian religion but we're exposing that today.

Any thoughts?

So, I am betting you don't eat bacon then.  Poor you.  You are missing out.

Lol dear Christian, just because you can cook and put it in your mouth, doesn't mean it's meant for FOOD. God in His wisdom tried to show us that.

Dear Foolish Galatian (should be your name), God in His wisdom showed us that all food is acceptable and to eat it with thanksgiving.

So CK, do you think that you must keep all the old levitical laws, so that, for example you dont wear clothes of mixed fabrics?

: Texas Conservative  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:17:44

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:10:58

: Texas Conservative  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 20:26:40

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 19:58:58
Water Baptism:

Pay attention to what's happening at the water. Here we see John Baptist ministering repentance. What are these Hebrews repenting for according to the Bible?

They're repenting for trangressing the Covenant of God at the mouth of Moses. Sin is the trangressing of the Law, right?That baptism is a return to the Law you fell away from or NEVER KNEW.

Sin is defined in the Bible as offenses against the Law. No amount of Christian theology can cover that up.

Repentance is ALWAYS a return to the Law. The Bible gives no other definition. Christianity would have you redefine it. You doubt it? Find the consistency and use both halves of the Bible; not just the second

Now, if it's consistent and clear that BIBLICAL repentance is always a return to Law and only bad Christian theology denies that, think about what happened when you got baptised:

Notice how when you got baptised, no one told you you were being baptised into the Covenant you never knew(American Christians)? That's because you got baptised into the Christian religion; you didn't get baptised into that Covenant--like you should of.

The promises of that Covenant belong to the people of it. Christianity denies that Covenant saying it's done away with. Q:

Christians, tell me: How are you claiming the promises of a Covenant that you openly refuse? Explain that on a common sense level. But before you do, realize that as far as Covenants are concerned, its consistently true that there is not a single Covenant given that negates the previous one. Go look. That consistency only breaks down in the Christian religion but we're exposing that today.

Any thoughts?

So, I am betting you don't eat bacon then.  Poor you.  You are missing out.

Lol dear Christian, just because you can cook and put it in your mouth, doesn't mean it's meant for FOOD. God in His wisdom tried to show us that.

Dear Foolish Galatian (should be your name), God in His wisdom showed us that all food is acceptable and to eat it with thanksgiving.

Do you have at least 2 or 3 Scriptural or verse references to verify that? Keep in mind that I used to be a Christian for 20yrs, you won't say anything surprising to me.
But....

Notice how when Peter had his vision, he told God plainly that he STILL wasn't eating [pork, crab, etc..]? You mean to tell me in all that time the 12 were with Rabbi Yeshua, no one told Peter he could eat American Bald Eagles? Rabbi Yeshua never told him in all that time that he could eat pit bulls to the full?

Lol, thinking your Bible says you can eat American Bald Eagles now, is only something a Christian would believe and that Religion can fool you if you don't know your Bible well. You gotta start thinking things through, guy.

: chosenone  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:31:43
So CK, do you think that you must keep all the old levitical laws, so that, for example you dont wear clothes of mixed fabrics?

There's no Temple for Levites to perform at, ceremonial Laws as far as Temple is concerned is obsolete.

May I ask an important question. What is it that saves CK, the death and resurrection of Jesus who is righteous and perfect and our belief and trust in Him, or our pathetic attempts to obey and keep to an enormous set of rules and laws and regulations that the Jews couldnt keep?

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:36:53

: chosenone  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:31:43
So CK, do you think that you must keep all the old levitical laws, so that, for example you dont wear clothes of mixed fabrics?

There's no Temple for Levites to perform at, ceremonial Laws as far as Temple is concerned is obsolete.

OK, so already you are finding laws that you dont keep to. How about the mixed fabrics thing?

: chosenone  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:38:48
May I ask an important question. What is it that saves CK, the death and resurrection of Jesus who is righteous and perfect and our belief and trust in Him, or our pathetic attempts to obey and keep to an enormous set of rules and laws and regulations that the Jews couldnt keep?

The Bible doesn't say you can't keep the Law. No, the Christian religion says that. Go look.

No, the Bible says it's impossible to be justified solely by keeping the Law. Christianity never teaches you that.

But look:

Notice what it says about John Baptist's parents in the first chapter of Luke? Looks like it says in PLAIN ENGLISH that they kept the Law BLAMELESSLY. What does your Religion have to say about that verse?

: chosenone  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:40:14

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:36:53

: chosenone  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:31:43
So CK, do you think that you must keep all the old levitical laws, so that, for example you dont wear clothes of mixed fabrics?

There's no Temple for Levites to perform at, ceremonial Laws as far as Temple is concerned is obsolete.

OK, so already you are finding laws that you dont keep to. How about the mixed fabrics thing?

Still learning about that particular law. I do however wear tzit tzits as commanded.

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:45:49

: chosenone  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:38:48
May I ask an important question. What is it that saves CK, the death and resurrection of Jesus who is righteous and perfect and our belief and trust in Him, or our pathetic attempts to obey and keep to an enormous set of rules and laws and regulations that the Jews couldnt keep?

The Bible doesn't say you can't keep the Law. No, the Christian religion says that. Go look.

No, the Bible says it's impossible to be justified solely by keeping the Law. Christianity never teaches you that.

But look:

Notice what it says about John Baptist's parents in the first chapter of Luke? Looks like it says in PLAIN ENGLISH that they kept the Law BLAMELESSLY. What does your Religion have to say about verse?

So you are saying that Jesus blood shed for you isnt enough to save you. That you must keep all the laws blamelessly as well. 

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:47:20

: chosenone  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:40:14

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:36:53

: chosenone  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:31:43
So CK, do you think that you must keep all the old levitical laws, so that, for example you dont wear clothes of mixed fabrics?

There's no Temple for Levites to perform at, ceremonial Laws as far as Temple is concerned is obsolete.

OK, so already you are finding laws that you dont keep to. How about the mixed fabrics thing?

Still learning about that particular law. I do however wear tzit tzits as commanded.

  Commanded for Jews.    Have you been circumcised? 

Romans 5 v 18
18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

5 Therefore, since we have been justified [that is, acquitted of sin, declared blameless before God] by faith, [let us grasp the fact that] we have peace with God [and the joy of reconciliation with Him] through our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed). 2 Through Him we also have access by faith into this [remarkable state of] grace in which we [firmly and safely and securely] stand. Let us rejoice in our [a]hope and the confident assurance of [experiencing and enjoying] the glory of [our great] God [the manifestation of His excellence and power].

acts 15 v 5-11
Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses."

6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."

I would point you to verse 10 above and ask you what Peter asked them.

: chosenone  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:48:36

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:45:49

: chosenone  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:38:48
May I ask an important question. What is it that saves CK, the death and resurrection of Jesus who is righteous and perfect and our belief and trust in Him, or our pathetic attempts to obey and keep to an enormous set of rules and laws and regulations that the Jews couldnt keep?

The Bible doesn't say you can't keep the Law. No, the Christian religion says that. Go look.

No, the Bible says it's impossible to be justified solely by keeping the Law. Christianity never teaches you that.

But look:

Notice what it says about John Baptist's parents in the first chapter of Luke? Looks like it says in PLAIN ENGLISH that they kept the Law BLAMELESSLY. What does your Religion have to say about verse?

So you are saying that Jesus blood shed for you isnt enough to save you. That you must keep all the laws blamelessly as well.

Lol, no.

: chosenone  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:49:25

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:47:20

: chosenone  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:40:14

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:36:53

: chosenone  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:31:43
So CK, do you think that you must keep all the old levitical laws, so that, for example you dont wear clothes of mixed fabrics?

There's no Temple for Levites to perform at, ceremonial Laws as far as Temple is concerned is obsolete.

OK, so already you are finding laws that you dont keep to. How about the mixed fabrics thing?

Still learning about that particular law. I do however wear tzit tzits as commanded.

  Commanded for Jews.    Have you been circumcised?

: chosenone  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:49:25

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:47:20

: chosenone  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:40:14

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:36:53

: chosenone  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:31:43
So CK, do you think that you must keep all the old levitical laws, so that, for example you dont wear clothes of mixed fabrics?

There's no Temple for Levites to perform at, ceremonial Laws as far as Temple is concerned is obsolete.

OK, so already you are finding laws that you dont keep to. How about the mixed fabrics thing?

Still learning about that particular law. I do however wear tzit tzits as commanded.

  Commanded for Jews.    Have you been circumcised?

Yes, I have. I know, the Christian religion says that's gong into bondage according to their miseducation of Rav Shaul.

Know what's funny about that? If Rav Shaul really taught that and Timothy was his disciple, doesn't it make you wonder why he never stopped Timothy from being circumcised?**gasp**

Think about that very carefully and critically.

Remember Shaul is Jewish and Timothy half Jewish. So, put two and two together.

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 23:17:51

: chosenone  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:49:25

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:47:20

: chosenone  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:40:14

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:36:53

: chosenone  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:31:43
So CK, do you think that you must keep all the old levitical laws, so that, for example you dont wear clothes of mixed fabrics?

There's no Temple for Levites to perform at, ceremonial Laws as far as Temple is concerned is obsolete.

OK, so already you are finding laws that you dont keep to. How about the mixed fabrics thing?

Still learning about that particular law. I do however wear tzit tzits as commanded.

  Commanded for Jews.    Have you been circumcised?

Yes, I have. I know, the Christian religion says that's gong into bondage according to their miseducation of Rav Shaul.

Know what's funny about that? If Rav Shaul really taught that and Timothy was his disciple, doesn't it make you wonder why he never stopped Timothy from being circumcised?**gasp**

Think about that very carefully and critically.

Remember Shaul is Jewish and Timothy half Jewish. So, put two and two together.

Because he was taking Timothy to the Jews.  They knew Tim was only a half brother, so they were inclined to disregard him. Paul had him circumcised to remove any complain or criticism against Tim.  The point was that the gospel of grace be furthered and no stumbling block get in the way of that.  The Jews would have been so wrapped up in law, they would have dismissed Tim for not being circumcised.

: MeMyself  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 23:39:19

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 23:17:51

: chosenone  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:49:25

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:47:20

: chosenone  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:40:14

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:36:53

: chosenone  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:31:43
So CK, do you think that you must keep all the old levitical laws, so that, for example you dont wear clothes of mixed fabrics?

There's no Temple for Levites to perform at, ceremonial Laws as far as Temple is concerned is obsolete.

OK, so already you are finding laws that you dont keep to. How about the mixed fabrics thing?

Still learning about that particular law. I do however wear tzit tzits as commanded.

  Commanded for Jews.    Have you been circumcised?

Yes, I have. I know, the Christian religion says that's gong into bondage according to their miseducation of Rav Shaul.

Know what's funny about that? If Rav Shaul really taught that and Timothy was his disciple, doesn't it make you wonder why he never stopped Timothy from being circumcised?**gasp**

Think about that very carefully and critically.

Remember Shaul is Jewish and Timothy half Jewish. So, put two and two together.

Because he was taking Timothy to the Jews.  They knew Tim was only a half brother, so they were inclined to disregard him. Paul had him circumcised to remove any complain or criticism against Tim.  The point was that the gospel of grace be furthered and no stumbling block get in the way of that.  The Jews would have been so wrapped up in law, they would have dismissed Tim for not being circumcised.

So, if getting circumcised leads back into bondage, as Christianity teaches, did Timothy go back into bondage? If so, Shaul contradicts his own teachings and leads Timothy back into bondage regardless of the reason, right?

Or should we go with a more biblical answer that Timothy got circumcised according to the commandment like Rav Shaul did and getting circumcised helped him gain entrance to the Jews?

: Covkeeper34  Mon Nov 30, 2015 - 23:55:27
Layceers,

Water baptism is a baptism of repentance according to John's baptism. I concur.

We baptise in Christ's name as commanded. It's an outward expression that you are turning from Lawlessness to Lawfulness. It's identifying yourself with the Covenant of God.

Which Covenant?   

Who is the Mediator?   

Covkeeper34:   Are you associated with the House of Yahweh?

: notreligus  Wed Dec 02, 2015 - 00:31:01
Covkeeper34:   Are you associated with the House of Yahweh?

No

: notreligus  Wed Dec 02, 2015 - 00:27:54

: Covkeeper34  Mon Nov 30, 2015 - 23:55:27
Layceers,

Water baptism is a baptism of repentance according to John's baptism. I concur.

We baptise in Christ's name as commanded. It's an outward expression that you are turning from Lawlessness to Lawfulness. It's identifying yourself with the Covenant of God.

Which Covenant?   

Who is the Mediator?

The RENEWED Covenant.

Christ as He's always been.

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 23:51:03

: MeMyself  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 23:39:19

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 23:17:51

: chosenone  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:49:25

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:47:20

: chosenone  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:40:14

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:36:53

: chosenone  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:31:43
So CK, do you think that you must keep all the old levitical laws, so that, for example you dont wear clothes of mixed fabrics?

There's no Temple for Levites to perform at, ceremonial Laws as far as Temple is concerned is obsolete.

OK, so already you are finding laws that you dont keep to. How about the mixed fabrics thing?

Still learning about that particular law. I do however wear tzit tzits as commanded.

  Commanded for Jews.    Have you been circumcised?

Yes, I have. I know, the Christian religion says that's gong into bondage according to their miseducation of Rav Shaul.

Know what's funny about that? If Rav Shaul really taught that and Timothy was his disciple, doesn't it make you wonder why he never stopped Timothy from being circumcised?**gasp**

Think about that very carefully and critically.

Remember Shaul is Jewish and Timothy half Jewish. So, put two and two together.

Because he was taking Timothy to the Jews.  They knew Tim was only a half brother, so they were inclined to disregard him. Paul had him circumcised to remove any complain or criticism against Tim.  The point was that the gospel of grace be furthered and no stumbling block get in the way of that.  The Jews would have been so wrapped up in law, they would have dismissed Tim for not being circumcised.

So, if getting circumcised leads back into bondage, as Christianity teaches,

It doesn't.  Never been taught that, never even had it implied...so... ::shrug:: ::eatingpopcorn:

did Timothy go back into bondage? If so, Shaul contradicts his own teachings and leads Timothy back into bondage regardless of the reason, right?

Or should we go with a more biblical answer that Timothy got circumcised according to the commandment like Rav Shaul did and getting circumcised helped him gain entrance to the Jews?

He got circumcised so that the religious law keepers would not be offended.  He got circumcised so as not to cause them to stumble.  He got circumcised to be all things to all people.  It was ALWAYS about doing what must be done to further the gospel of the grace of Christ Jesus.

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 23:17:51

: chosenone  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:49:25

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:47:20

: chosenone  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:40:14

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:36:53

: chosenone  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:31:43
So CK, do you think that you must keep all the old levitical laws, so that, for example you dont wear clothes of mixed fabrics?

There's no Temple for Levites to perform at, ceremonial Laws as far as Temple is concerned is obsolete.

OK, so already you are finding laws that you dont keep to. How about the mixed fabrics thing?

Still learning about that particular law. I do however wear tzit tzits as commanded.

  Commanded for Jews.    Have you been circumcised?

Yes, I have. I know, the Christian religion says that's gong into bondage according to their miseducation of Rav Shaul.

Know what's funny about that? If Rav Shaul really taught that and Timothy was his disciple, doesn't it make you wonder why he never stopped Timothy from being circumcised?**gasp**

Think about that very carefully and critically.

Remember Shaul is Jewish and Timothy half Jewish. So, put two and two together.

Paul was scathing and angry in his denounciation of those who were telling the gentiles to be circumcised. Stating that they may as well go the whole way now and have it all cut off.  ::eek:: No mistaking his meaning at all.

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 23:51:03

: MeMyself  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 23:39:19

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 23:17:51

: chosenone  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:49:25

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:47:20

: chosenone  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:40:14

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:36:53

: chosenone  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 21:31:43
So CK, do you think that you must keep all the old levitical laws, so that, for example you dont wear clothes of mixed fabrics?

There's no Temple for Levites to perform at, ceremonial Laws as far as Temple is concerned is obsolete.

OK, so already you are finding laws that you dont keep to. How about the mixed fabrics thing?

Still learning about that particular law. I do however wear tzit tzits as commanded.

  Commanded for Jews.    Have you been circumcised?

Yes, I have. I know, the Christian religion says that's gong into bondage according to their miseducation of Rav Shaul.

Know what's funny about that? If Rav Shaul really taught that and Timothy was his disciple, doesn't it make you wonder why he never stopped Timothy from being circumcised?**gasp**

Think about that very carefully and critically.

Remember Shaul is Jewish and Timothy half Jewish. So, put two and two together.

Because he was taking Timothy to the Jews.  They knew Tim was only a half brother, so they were inclined to disregard him. Paul had him circumcised to remove any complain or criticism against Tim.  The point was that the gospel of grace be furthered and no stumbling block get in the way of that.  The Jews would have been so wrapped up in law, they would have dismissed Tim for not being circumcised.

So, if getting circumcised leads back into bondage, as Christianity teaches, did Timothy go back into bondage? If so, Shaul contradicts his own teachings and leads Timothy back into bondage regardless of the reason, right?

Or should we go with a more biblical answer that Timothy got circumcised according to the commandment like Rav Shaul did and getting circumcised helped him gain entrance to the Jews?

memyself has already explained why Timothy got circumcised. Its not for gentiles at all.

Person number 10,986 that has come to the board believing they have the only correct way of understanding the bible and the rest of us dummies need to listen so we can be converted to  "the truth". This thread reminds me of the internet commercials that promise a near miracle revelation but after 20 minutes of commercial they have made promise after promise and the conclusion is well just silly .  Pardon my brief interruption now I will go back to the only thing that saves the blood of Jesus .  PS we already have a board for Messianic Christians.   

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 18:45:241) common sense 2) good reasoning And 3) reality Theses are my choice weapons.

Well, common sense is not too common anymore. Good reasoning is only good if its has for its foundation the word of God, specially debating truth. Reality? If I understand its definiton properly to mean: "the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic"; then we must used the word of God, and reject vain man's ideals concerning his understanding of the given subject at hand. I want to come back and deal with your understanding of the law of God, and our relationship to the law, based upon Paul's teachings. My only source will be the word of God, period. I will not trust on my common sense, sound reasoning, unless it comes directly from the mouth of God. It seems like to me that you have been bewitched by false prophets, and I shall use the word of God to prove that very thing. I am not so sure that you do not live in Piedmont, S.C.~but if you do not, then I know a person who was a Christian for twenty years and then jumped ship to embraced a form of Judaism, thereby embracing the OT over the NT~ I see why you say that you were a Christian, but no longer. You may think that you understand Christianity as taught by the NT, but I can assure you that you do not.  I have some meetings early this morning but will address some points that you have so far mentioned. You have said not one word that can not be answered with NT scriptures. I have debated men like you before, and they generally have no answers, no support their false theories, even though they keep barking as though they do. 

: Covkeeper34  Wed Dec 02, 2015 - 01:10:28The RENEWED Covenant.

There's no such doctrine as a Renewed Covenant~there is a first, and there is a second; there is a old, and there is a new. You care to explain exactly what you consider the Renewed Covenant?

Christ as He's always been.

By that statement you mean what? Jesus as the Son of God, was born around two thousand years ago to a young virgin named Mary~ until that time, there was no Jesus Christ, as we know him. Now, that being said, in his Divine Nature he was the I am That I am, the beginning and end of all things, the Everlasting Father of all things~eternal both ways. The Word that was in the beginning joined Himself to the tabernacle of the Son of God, and walked among men; was seen of angels for the first time; lived and died for the sins of his people; was resurrected by the power of God; and is now seated at God's right hand of power, waiting til his enemies be made his footstool.   

I am moving this thread to the non-traditional theology board.

: BondServant  Wed Dec 02, 2015 - 06:54:47
I am moving this thread to the non-traditional theology board.

Yes good call.

Long passage from the Bible, but says it all in reference to this thread.

Acts 15
15 But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved." 2 And after Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question. 3 So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and brought great joy to all the brothers.[a] 4 When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they declared all that God had done with them. 5 But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses."

6 The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. 7 And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, 9 and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith. 10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will."

12 And all the assembly fell silent, and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. 13 After they finished speaking, James replied, "Brothers, listen to me. 14 Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written,

16 "'After this I will return,
and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen;
I will rebuild its ruins,
     and I will restore it,
17 that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord,
    and all the Gentiles who are called by my name,
     says the Lord, who makes these things 18 known from of old.'
19 Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, 20 but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. 21 For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues."

The Council's Letter to Gentile Believers
22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brothers, 23 with the following letter: "The brothers, both the apostles and the elders, to the brothers[c] who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greetings. 24 Since we have heard that some persons have gone out from us and troubled you[d] with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions, 25 it has seemed good to us, having come to one accord, to choose men and send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will tell you the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: 29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell." 


Wanted to repeat the last part.

For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: 29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell."

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 19:58:58Water Baptism: pay attention to what's happening at the water. Here we see John Baptist ministering repentance. What are these Hebrews repenting for according to the Bible? Any thoughts?

Sir, John did not ministered repentance. Couple of reasons I say this: first, true repentance is a gift granted, that comes with the free gift of eternal life, and being made a new creature in Jesus Christ. Now, that does not mean, that we do not live in a state of constantly asking forgiveness and repenting of certain acts of wickedness; and sometimes just down right foolishness. But the gift to repent, and the power to do so, is a gift granted by grace, on the behalf of Jesus Christ.

2nd Timothy 2:25...Reads~"In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;"

John the Baptist, ministered water baptism, preaching repentance. But, only those given faith, are the only ones that can and will repent!

What are these Hebrews repenting for according to the Bible?

Let the scriptures answer this question, not me:

Luke 3:8-11....Reads~"Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. And the people asked him, saying, What shall we do then? He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise."

You asked a question, and the scriptures answered it for you.

Sin is defined in the Bible as offenses against the Law. No amount of Christian theology can cover that up.

Sir, Christians teach that truth more than other religious sect in this world.

Repentance is ALWAYS a return to the Law. ]

Not so fast sir, not so fast. No, true repentance is a return to God~ It is taking sides with God against SELF. Repentant is beautifully described for us by Paul:

2nd Corinthians 7:9-11.....Reads~ "Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter."

Godly repentance, which is an ongoing process of sanctification~ works salvation (in a practical sense) for those who practice biblical godly repentance, with a sorrowful spirit of offending the God of heaven~based upon His overall revelation of his will for us as his children.

Christianity would have you redefine it.

That's a lie. Followers of Jesus Christ loves and delights in his commandments, and his commandments are not limited to ten, or 100, but the whole scriptures. But, could be summed up in Ten, if one truly understood the spirituality of God's commandments, which only Christians DO. Our Lord Jesus has graciously instructed us concerning his Father's commandments, especially from Matthew 5-7 in the sermon on the mount. 

Find the consistency and use both halves of the Bible; not just the second

Oh, but we do! We used both testaments, only we KNOW that the second is more glorious than the first.  Did not Moses teach us this? Yes he did indeed:

2nd Corinthians 3:7-15....Reads~ "But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:  How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart."

Truth is found IN CHRIST, not in Moses! All of the CHRISTIANS said AMEN. I will finish the rest of your post later.

: Covkeeper34  Wed Dec 02, 2015 - 01:10:28

: notreligus  Wed Dec 02, 2015 - 00:27:54

: Covkeeper34  Mon Nov 30, 2015 - 23:55:27
Layceers,

Water baptism is a baptism of repentance according to John's baptism. I concur.

We baptise in Christ's name as commanded. It's an outward expression that you are turning from Lawlessness to Lawfulness. It's identifying yourself with the Covenant of God.

Which Covenant?   

Who is the Mediator?

The RENEWED Covenant.

Christ as He's always been.

So, you are promoting covenantal nomism.     

Salvation by faith in Christ was how Jews were and continue to be saved.  Christ is prophesied and pre-figured throughout the Old Testament Scripture (i.e. forward looking), but since His finished work on the cross He became the Mediator, the attorney who stands before the Father and calls believers righteous.   Prior to this rituals and sacrifices were necessary and repeated under the Old Covenant, the old way that God related to mankind.   Under the New Covenant, a Blood Covenant, Christ's shed blood has been presented in the heavenly Holy of Holies as a once-and-for-all atonement for the sin of mankind.   Christ's righteousness has been imputed to the believer - the Great Exchange.  This was God Almighty's choice.   Christ came with a mission, His mission to give up His life on the cross that we all may live.   He did not come to set up an earthly kingdom for the Jews.   Many are proclaiming another Jesus, a false Christ, just as Paul said would happen.

: Johnb  Wed Dec 02, 2015 - 05:00:49
Person number 10,986 that has come to the board believing they have the only correct way of understanding the bible and the rest of us dummies need to listen so we can be converted to  "the truth".

Yep.  This path is more a rut than anything else.  But, this poster is SO sure he has a new revelation or understanding. ::frown:: Its all the same...

: MeMyself  Wed Dec 02, 2015 - 08:55:42

: Johnb  Wed Dec 02, 2015 - 05:00:49
Person number 10,986 that has come to the board believing they have the only correct way of understanding the bible and the rest of us dummies need to listen so we can be converted to  "the truth".

Yep.  This path is more a rut than anything else.  But, this poster is SO sure he has a new revelation or understanding. ::frown:: Its all the same...

And at the same time, thoroughly enjoys members playing 20 questions with him.

I'll answer these new replies later, after work, thx

: MeMyself  Wed Dec 02, 2015 - 08:55:42


Yep.  This path is more a rut than anything else.  But, this poster is SO sure he has a new revelation or understanding. ::frown:: Its all the same...

And I, for one, am still waiting for that revelation or explanation into his understanding.  ::eatingpopcorn:

: RB  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 17:23:13
Again it is written:

1st Timothy 2:14....Reads~"And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."

It's good to remember that this verse isn't just telling us about Eve, but also about Adam. Eve sinned because she was deceived, but Adam sinned willfully, with his eyes wide open, knowing exactly what he was doing.

Which do you think is worse?

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 15:25:58
I get kicked off alot of Christian sites. Sometimes only after an opening post. And I'm going to tell you as God as my witness, 100% of the time, only women have a problem, the guys are cool. The women like to throw around the words: "rude", "mean", "insensitive", "arrogant", etc....This is a constant thing.

Well then this site is an exception. It is the male moderators here who are more likely to ban you. Just because they haven't directed many comments to you doesn't mean they aren't watching you.
::smile::

: Nevertheless  Wed Dec 02, 2015 - 13:55:49It's good to remember that this verse isn't just telling us about Eve, but also about Adam. Eve sinned because she was deceived, but Adam sinned willfully, with his eyes wide open, knowing exactly what he was doing. Which do you think is worse?

Adam's

: RB  Wed Dec 02, 2015 - 14:17:44

: Nevertheless  Wed Dec 02, 2015 - 13:55:49It's good to remember that this verse isn't just telling us about Eve, but also about Adam. Eve sinned because she was deceived, but Adam sinned willfully, with his eyes wide open, knowing exactly what he was doing. Which do you think is worse?

Adam's

::smile::
I agree. I've heard this verse wielded as a weapon by insecure men attempting to "keep the women in their place." Trouble is, they didn't realize they were gripping the blade of a sword and swinging it like a club.

: Nevertheless  Wed Dec 02, 2015 - 15:14:18
::smile::
I agree. I've heard this verse wielded as a weapon by insecure men attempting to "keep the women in their place." Trouble is, they didn't realize they were gripping the blade of a sword and swinging it like a club.

::giggle::
::thumbup::

: Covkeeper34  Tue Dec 01, 2015 - 19:58:58Now, if it's consistent and clear that BIBLICAL repentance is always a return to Law and only bad Christian theology denies that.....

Nice try, but you have yet to proven your point. Now, I would give you a little room, and say this to you: "IF you use the word law in  broad term as it is use many times over in the NT by Paul, then I might give you some credit of having a little truth." An example of what I'm saying would be this: "Law" is used many times by Paul to express a commandment or that which has authority and works as a law. The word "law" occurs 223 times in the New Testament of the King James Version. ... we must use the scriptures overall to determined Paul's sense in which he is using the word law.  In Romans 7:1-8:4 the word "law" is used twenty two times alone, with different senses! So, please4 explain what you mean by the law, then explain what sense you are speaking of. Could it be~the law of the mind of a child of God, laboring to bring himself into subjection to the spiritual, holy and good law of God overall considered? If yes, then no problem~ if no, then prove your point.

only bad Christian theology denies that,

Sir, only Christians have truth. Now that being said, there is indeed much bad and wicked theology in the religion of Mystery Babylon.  Without true believers in Jesus Christ, (or the very elect) the Son of the Living God, there would be no truth left in this world, as it comes to it end. (2 Timothy 3:13; Matthew 24:24)

think about what happened when you got baptised: Notice how when you got baptised, no one told you you were being baptised into the Covenant you never knew(American Christians)? That's because you got baptised into the Christian religion; you didn't get baptised into that Covenant--like you should of.

Sir, you must explain yourself with this strange belief. Christians/believers  world over, and since Pentecost, are baptized into the religion  of Jesus Christ~based upon his gospel and the redemption of being delivered from the curse of the law, and its condemnation through his life/obedience, death and  resurrection. Grace and truth came by HIM, not Moses. In him is LIFE, and the life is the LIGHT of the world, both Jews and Gentiles. He is the True light that shines light into the hearts of his followers~ which you men cannot comprehend, because you are still looking to Moses.

The promises of that Covenant belong to the people of it. Christianity denies that Covenant saying it's done away with.

Sir, the first Covenant is a schoolmaster for God's elect showing and proving to us that we NEED CHRIST. Our hiding place is IN Christ, not in Moses. We do not deny the first Covenant, only we know how to use it lawfully, as a schoolmaster ONLY. 1st Timothy 1:8; Galatians 3:19-24; etc.

Christians, tell me: How are you claiming the promises of a Covenant that you openly refuse?

I claim the promise of the first Covenant through the second Covenant  of pure grace given to the seed of Jesus Christ THROUGH HIS OBEDIENCE~he alone fulfilled what I could NOT do in my flesh, he DID PERFECTLY for me! Jesus Christ fulfilled the first Covenant perfectly, so that I can live through him imparting his perfect righteousness to MY ACCOUNT! Praise be to the Lamb of God!

Explain that on a common sense level.

No man can understand these things UNLESS it be revealed to them by the Father. Matthew 16:17; Matthew 11:27; John 5:21; etc. Common sense? I rather have spiritual enlightenment~which give a person sound common sense. There's a spiritual madness roaming free through out this world, even among professor of the God of heaven.

But before you do, realize that as far as Covenants are concerned, its consistently true that there is not a single Covenant given that negates the previous one. Go look. That consistency only breaks down in the Christian religion but we're exposing that today.

The second Covenant abolished the first, as far as securing eternal life for the seed of Jesus Christ~and in this sense, it is so much better than the one the first Adam was placed under in Eden. For the second Covenant had the Second Adam FROM HEAVEN securing our right to eternal life FOR US!  Let me ask you a question: Since you desire to be under the first covenant of works~do you not hear what it commands, and the curses for not living up to those commandments, in both thoughts and deeds? 

: MeMyself  Wed Dec 02, 2015 - 15:19:06

: Nevertheless  Wed Dec 02, 2015 - 15:14:18
::smile::
I agree. I've heard this verse wielded as a weapon by insecure men attempting to "keep the women in their place." Trouble is, they didn't realize they were gripping the blade of a sword and swinging it like a club.

::giggle::
::thumbup::

What are you smiling about? Hey, I kinda understand Adam's predicament that he was in. Every other man in the flesh, (with an exception of Jesus Christ) would have done the very same thing! Men have their weakness, and a beautiful woman that a man is in love with is his greatest source of weakness. That being said. A godly woman is also man's greatest source of strength to help him live godly before God. I have such a woman, for which I am thankful for.  She's corrected me a few times over in almost fifty years of marriage. But, she does it in a most gracious way, that only adds power to what she is correcting me on. 

Red, smiling at the word picture that Never painted for us! It was awesome!

About the condemning people who eat bacon comment...

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. 1 Timothy 4:1-5


About the circumcision... Read Galatians. We are under the new covenant, not the old.

It's also pretty presumptuous to say all christians don't know why they're getting baptized or getting baptized into a religion instead of by faith. You don't speak for everyone.

The Rational Mind Pt. 1

Like I've said before, it's WAY too easy for any of us to put verses together and say: "this is the right interpretation!'. I've been doing this with Christians a long time. So, I'll take a different approach.

I know that there are alot of things said since my last remarks, but I'm going to hold off on that for a second. I'm not ditching at all. I know how to answer the Acts references and Galatians references and all other NT references that come. But I'm going to appeal to the spectators right now.

Whatever Christianity can't explain with common sense and good reasoning,  it'll spiritualize it away as a cover-up.

You should never have to betray your common sense, good reasoning, and reality, in order to follow the historically Jewish Messiah. If Christianity is constantly causing you to do that, it's an indication that you've fallen into a false religious system. And I will show you plainly that's what Christianity as you know it, is

I will now refer to the spectators as:The Rational Mind

Let's see, I have arrows, bullets, and missiles. I'm feeling pretty good right now and confident. Let's use a missile...

Moses said, 'A prophet like myself will arise...'

Rational Mind, this is in reference to none other than Yeshua, yes? Ok, so does the Christian Jesus fit that description to a "T"? Let's see....

Moses had a Law coming from a mountain, true? Then does the Christian Jesus have a Law coming from a mountain? Here's Christianity:

When you convert to that Religion, you are directed to a hill with someone on the cross. There, Christianity proclaims the Law was nailed there and done away with.

WAIT!!! That's not the guy Moses was speaking of if that guy has no Law to obey!**rational mind is thinking, thinking this through** Christianity wants it's converts to ignore this very crucial criteria for the one LIKE MOSES!

Does our Bible tell of a Jewish Messiah who has a Law to obey coming from a mountain? Yes, it does!! It's Yeshua Ben David and the Law is coming from Mt. Zion!!

Christianity will ONLY point YOU to a hill where Christ is apparently eternally bleeding waiting for converts!

Rational Mind, there is no one on that cross physically OR SPIRITUALLY! So, why is Christianity pointing it's converts there? Because THAT RELIGION denies the one like Moses in that Christianity OPENLY tells you you have no Law to obey in their religion with their "Christian Jesus".***Rational Mind is thinking this through, thinking, thinking***

You should never have to betray your common sense and good reasoning in order to follow the Jewish Messiah. Christianity requires that you abandon them both to follow the Christian Jesus.

The fact that "Christian Jesus" doesn't fit the criteria as "one like Moses" due to the fact Christian Jesus has no Law for you to obey, means this discussion is already over and that's enough proof there to prove Christianity is a false religious system that's claims Christ and is on the same level as Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Roman Catholicism. How so, Cov?:

Because what you will find consistently TRUE about them all is, NONE adhere to the Law of God at the mouth of Moses!***the Rational Mind is thinking this through***

Common sense and good reasoning says this:

"Christianity, if you aren't UNDER any Law, you have no authority ABOVE you**gasp***

The Christian will say, "we're under the LAW OF THE SPIRIT" BUT the Rational Mind will say, "name 20 if that's so".

Just wait for Part2!!

: Nevertheless  Wed Dec 02, 2015 - 15:14:18

: RB  Wed Dec 02, 2015 - 14:17:44

: Nevertheless  Wed Dec 02, 2015 - 13:55:49It's good to remember that this verse isn't just telling us about Eve, but also about Adam. Eve sinned because she was deceived, but Adam sinned willfully, with his eyes wide open, knowing exactly what he was doing. Which do you think is worse?

Adam's

::smile::
I agree. I've heard this verse wielded as a weapon by insecure men attempting to "keep the women in their place." Trouble is, they didn't realize they were gripping the blade of a sword and swinging it like a club.

anyone who wields that verse in that way has a problem. I would never dream of using what one man did to attack or accuse another man.

In spite of your enthusiastic support of the "rational mind" your arguments are quite lacking in logic.

Premise 1: In order for a prophet to be "like Moses" he must receive a law from a mountain.

First, the Law Moses received did not come from a mountain, it came from God while Moses was on the mountain, so the "facts" on which you base your premise are faulty.

Second, what is your basis for choosing this one characteristic of Moses on which to test the similarity of a prophet? Moses was of the tribe of Levi, was raised in Pharaoh's household, worked as a shepherd for 40 years, and began his job of leading Israel at age 80. Any of those characteristics could just as easily be chosen to determine if a prophet is "like Moses."

Premise 2: "Christian Jesus has no Law for you to obey"

This is simply false and demonstrates to all that you know very little about Christianity, despite your claims to great knowledge.

The Rational Mind Pt 2

Let me throw a bullet...

Rational Mind, the popular Christian belief is Christ did  away with the Law. Let's see if we can use our common sense and good reasoning to see if that's so. It's not, but this'll fun....

We know "Christian Jesus" is coming back to judge the world...but wait!!!

Does anyone see the red flag with that?

Common sense says: In order for a judge to judge, THERE HAS TO BE A LAW TO JUDGE WITH!!

"CHRISTIAN JESUS" did away the Law!! Rational Mind, tell your Christian friends to have that make sense to you on a common sense level. They can't!!

If your Christian Beliefs force you to deny your common sense and good reasoning in order to be one of its converts, you are in a FALSE RELIGIOUS SYSTEM!!

Here's the truth, when the Jewish Messiah returns, He will have a Law to judge with because the historically JEWISH Messiah did not do away with the Law on the cross. No, your Bible says He nailed the condemnation of the Law there.***Rational Mind is thinking, thinking***The condemnation is DEATH.

We are in a Grace period where once when the Law requires swift punishment  for transgressions, you now have an open door of REPENTANCE. BUT at the end of days, the same punishment Moses' Law required, is the same punishment you will get!!

Christianity is full of false teachings but you will never know it until you LEARN THE LAW. Christianity discourages that! The average Christian including those on this site are First Testament illiterate. 

That's enough for Pt 2, just wait for Pt 3!!

: Covkeeper34  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 01:42:30Christianity is full of false teachings but you will never know it until you LEARN THE LAW. Christianity discourages that!

Sir, you should not be allowed to continue speaking "IF" you refuse to enter into a dialogue with anyone who is taken their time and effort to answer your post, which I did, yet you avoided addressing even one point among many, yet I addressed every statement you made, and supported my position with scriptures. So, why should you be allowed to continue speaking on a Christian forum, foaming out of your own shame? You are nothing more than a raging wave of the sea, a wandering star, just as Jude the apostle said of men like you~ Speaking evil of the things you know not!

The average Christian including those on this site are First Testament illiterate.

Really, you have not even tested us as individuals to see if your proud statement is so or not. Christians love BOTH testaments and understand the importance of both.  But, I will say this for now: The OT is nothing more than the NT hidden, while the New Testament is the OT  revealed! I had rather be grounded in the New Testament than the Old. But, that being said. I'll go with Paul, and the rest of the apostle and stand upon the truth that the New Testament has much more glory than the Old. Which I have addressed already, if you care to go there and prove me wrong. But for now, since you glory over Moses above Christ, let us read more form the word of God and see if you have a legitimate, and biblical case to do so...I think not.

Hebrews 3:1-6...Reads~:Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God. And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end."

A few things worthy of our attention for us to see who in God's estimation was worthy to be worship and followed. You say Moses, the word of God said~Jesus Christ! Compare the two: I say based upon God's testimony, that Christ is BETTER than Moses, and must be the object of our worship, or else we have been bewitched by false prophets. Verse one~The passage calls the reader to consider the two offices which Jesus fulfilled. The two offices in which He ministered are "the Apostle and the High Priest of our profession" (3:1b). The term "apostle" means one who is sent forth, like an ambassador, with a message and authority. Christ is the Apostle, whom God sent into the world. In John's Gospel, Christ is frequently referred to as sent by God to make known His will unto His people (John 3:34; 5:36). That was true of Jesus who said, "I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak" (John 12:49). He is the One, whom Moses and all other prophets of old had prophesied, to be sent by God. The Apostle Peter said to the Jews of Jerusalem,

Acts 3:22-26....Reads~ "For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, and in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities" .

Summed up, Peter is saying unequivocally that Christ is the prophet whose coming even Moses and the rest of the Old Testament prophets had anticipated. Jesus Christ is also "the High Priest of our profession". He was an infinitely better High Priest than all other high priests of Israel. It was already stated in Hebrews 2:17 that Christ is "a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people". As an High Priest, Christ is our supreme intercessor before God (Hebrews 4:14-7:28).

Verse two~Christ is more glorious than Moses Although verse 2 depicts Moses' faithfulness in the same breath as Jesus', there is a difference. In verse 3, we read about Jesus that "... this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses". Here, the Spirit of God asserts that Christ is more excellent than Moses. The Gospel prophet, Jesus Christ, is far superior to Moses, the greatest of Jewish prophets! Moses' face once shone with the glory of God, but it was only a reflection – a transitory glory. On the other hand, Christ's glory is a "glory that excelleth" (2 Corinthians 3:10). The superiority of Christ's glory over Moses' is further explained in verses 3 to 6 with reference to His position and person. Later...........

please refer back to post 186 ck 

it ends in these words.

For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: 29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell."
Modify message

Brief Intermission--Defusing RB
***sgh***

Like you said in paragraph one of your last reply, there are SO MANY points coming from alot of people for me to address. And like I said, anyone can post a bunch of verses, put then together and say, "voila!, Truth!". I'm reading everything you say, RB but I have to answer you from a different angle. You may not like how I answer but I am going to address your thoughts.

I'll answer your last reply, now. But as you can see, I'm busy pointing out things widely believed in Christianity that aren't true, like: Many Christians do in fact believe the Law is done away with and I know many do because I talk to many. I'm proving that to be false belief in front of you all using mere common sense.


Your second paragraph:

The average Christian does not know their Law and I know they don't because I talk to many frequently. My statement is true. If Christians knew the Law, they wouldn't say it's done away with and I'm not yet done proving them wrong on that point. I can ask you a simple yes or no question: Is the Law done away with, RB?

You said something the AVERAGE Christian would say: You'd rather be grounded in the NT than old. Hmmm.....Let's use our common sense and good reasoning to see if that makes sense:

The First Testament is the foundation of the second. Let's paint a picture. You have a foundation and then you have the house built on top of the foundation. You say, you'd rather have the house first and then try to fit the foundation in somewhere afterwards. Rational Mind, this is a prime example of the backwards thinking of Christianity!! It's a false religious system lol. Common sense says: familiarize yourself with the foundation, then build the house on top! The majority of the westernized Christian world thinks just like you and I know this because I grew up in that world. And it's that backwards thinking that made me leave that backwards religion among a myriad of other reasons. You do greatly err with your backwards theology**smh***

Not only do you err in that point but you also misunderstand why the Renewed Covenant is more glorious than the first. It's the same Covenant, only modified. First, Levitical Law and the Nation specific Laws are largely done away with. And second, Grace overflows now where it was shall we say "limited" then. That's all there is to that.

Your third paragraph:

The "Word of God" as defined biblically is what God gave to Moses. But in Christian propaganda, it's everything between the Leather covers. They're wrong. Just like Christianity would like you to believe that everything after Malachi is "Scripture". They're wrong again. Scripture consistently defined in the Bible is Torah and Tanakh. Wherever you see the word "Scripture" in the NT, it's referring to no book in the NT at all. Oh, you can take me to Peter where he mentions the word and we can get that cleared up super fast.

Your fourth paragraph:

True

Your fifth paragraph:

Of course God in the flesh is better than any clay figure that's come out of the womb!! Geez!! Don't make the foolish Christian mistake of thinking I'm exalting the PERSON OF Moses over anyone. No, I'm showing that the Law is not done away with and is still to be observed. I've only stopped to answer you but there are still more Parts that I'm writing because it's leading up to something. So, be patient, part 3 is on its way

: chosenone  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 06:41:50
please refer back to post 186 ck 

it ends in these words.

For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: 29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell."
Modify message

I'm going to address this immediately after work tonight. This is always one of my favorite ones when Christians use it. The answer will be biblical.

: Covkeeper34  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 07:21:52

: chosenone  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 06:41:50
please refer back to post 186 ck 

it ends in these words.

For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: 29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell."
Modify message

I'm going to address this immediately after work tonight. This is always one of my favorite ones when Christians use it. The answer will be biblical.

Its already Biblical.   

How about this. I SO love this passage, especially the last sentence ::clappingoverhead::

Galatians 5
Walk by the Spirit
5 It was for this freedom that Christ set us free [completely liberating us]; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery [which you once removed].

2 Notice, it is I, Paul, who tells you that if you receive circumcision [as a supposed requirement of salvation], Christ will be of no benefit to you [for you will lack the faith in Christ that is necessary for salvation]. 3 Once more I solemnly affirm to every man who receives circumcision [as a supposed requirement of salvation], that he is under obligation and required to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, if you seek to be [a]justified [that is, declared free of the guilt of sin and its penalty, and placed in right standing with God] through the Law; you have fallen from grace [for you have lost your grasp on God's unmerited favor and blessing]. 5 For we [not relying on the Law but] through the [strength and power of the Holy] Spirit, by faith, are waiting [confidently] for the hope of righteousness [the completion of our salvation]. 6 For [if we are] in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but only faith activated and expressed and working through love.

7 You were running [the race] well; who has interfered and prevented you from obeying the truth? 8 This [deceptive] persuasion is not from Him who called you [to freedom in Christ]. 9 A little leaven [a slight inclination to error, or a few false teachers] leavens the whole batch [it perverts the concept of faith and misleads the church]. 10 I have confidence in you in the Lord that you will adopt no other view [contrary to mine on the matter]; but the one who is disturbing you, whoever he is, will have to bear the penalty. 11 But as for me, [c]brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision [as I had done before I met Christ; and as [d]some accuse me of doing now, as necessary for salvation], why am I still being persecuted [by Jews]? In that case the stumbling block of the cross [to unbelieving Jews] has been abolished. 12 I wish that those who are troubling you [by teaching that circumcision is necessary for salvation] would even [go all the way and] castrate themselves!

: Covkeeper34  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 07:10:56Brief Intermission--Defusing RB***sgh***

Really? Sir, it's almost laughable that you truly believe that you have done so, or, even attempted to do so. If this is what you call defusing a person's teachings, then you need to think again~but, what do we expect from children of the bond woman? Just what we are hearing. You are a child of Ishmael mocking the children of faith, the holy seed of Jesus Christ.

Is the Law done away with, RB?

Yes, and No. Now there you have, see if you have enough insight to know what I mean by answer to you. But I do not think you are able to do so, so I will help you out. Yes, it is done away as a means to enter into eternal life, as given to the first Adam; NO, we still are under it as a rule of life to live by~for the Law is holy, good, above all~the most spiritual set of commandments to live by....YET, we do not seek our acceptance through it, but through Jesus Christ, who alone lived under it and perfectly kept it in word and deed, from conception to death...FOR ME and every child of promise.

: chosenone  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 07:37:01

: Covkeeper34  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 07:21:52

: chosenone  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 06:41:50
please refer back to post 186 ck 

it ends in these words.

For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: 29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell."
Modify message

I'm going to address this immediately after work tonight. This is always one of my favorite ones when Christians use it. The answer will be biblical.

Its already Biblical.   

haha! Exactly!   ::noworries::

: Covkeeper34  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 07:10:56
Brief Intermission--Defusing RB
***sgh***

what are you ****sighing**** about?

What did Christ mean when He said He came to fulfill the law, not to abolish it?

He was referring to changing our hearts rather than to perform a check list of dos and don'ts that one might feel has kept them in good standing with God.

The law was simply not enough to offer salvation, that was the purpose for Christ and why we needed Him and continue to need Him.

I don't think anyone here is purporting that the law is a thing of the past, members here generally seem to acknowledge that we need to do our best to do the will of God, not only by the letter but with a proper heart condition.   

Al

: Alan  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 10:22:55
What did Christ mean when He said He came to fulfill the law, not to abolish it?

He was referring to changing our hearts rather than to perform a check list of dos and don'ts that one might feel has kept them in good standing with God.

The law was simply not enough to offer salvation, that was the purpose for Christ and why we needed Him and continue to need Him.

I don't think anyone here is purporting that the law is a thing of the past, members here generally seem to acknowledge that we need to do our best to do the will of God, not only by the letter but with a proper heart condition.   

Al

yes.  ::smile::

: Alan  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 10:22:55
What did Christ mean when He said He came to fulfill the law, not to abolish it?

He was referring to changing our hearts rather than to perform a check list of dos and don'ts that one might feel has kept them in good standing with God.

The law was simply not enough to offer salvation, that was the purpose for Christ and why we needed Him and continue to need Him.

I don't think anyone here is purporting that the law is a thing of the past, members here generally seem to acknowledge that we need to do our best to do the will of God, not only by the letter but with a proper heart condition.   

Al

Amen!  Christ came to fulfill the requirements of the Law, and when we claim Him as Lord, our hearts are made pure.

The Law exists to point to our failings and need for Christ's intervention.

CovK, I have a question.

If I am so wrong in my beliefs and evidently living in sin for not keeping the "law" why is God so good to me?   He answers my prayers, gives me comfort and is always showing me that He is here with me.

I will give you one great example.    My daughter was pregnant and had an ultrasound that showed severe abnormalities.    The Dr. and nurse recommended that she consider ending the pregnancy.   They said that "if" the baby did make it full term and was born, he would have profound mental retardation and probably die as an infant.   My daughter took this to heart and with much sorrow, made the appt. to get an abortion.    When they were examining her prior to the procedure they were giving her an ultrasound.   The Dr. left the ultasound wand  on her belly and turned away for a second and just then my granson kicked so hard the ultasound wand "flew" off my daughters belly and hit the floor.    (This was odd because my daughter had only felt slight movements from the baby so far.)  My daughter knew in her heart what that meant.   She immediately got up, got dressed, left and promised the Lord that she would accept whatever was to happen with his help.

My grandson was born full term several months later at Rainbow Babies and Children's Hosp. in Cleveland.   He remained their for about 2 months.   He did have some very serious disabilities.     But we held him up in our church (Methodist) every Sunday and he just kept improving.   
Long story short:   He was delayed a bit in starting school but caught right up and made the Honor Roll all through High School.    Even played football one season!!   ::smile::   He now he is in his first year of college at RIT in NY and doing pretty good, I might add.   He is a miracle child of God.    And I thank the Lord every day for him!!!

CovK, this is just one example of how the Lord has blessed and taken care of my family and myself in my life.    And if like you say, we are to use common sense, rational thinking and good reasoning, then I think I MUST be doing something right where my Christianity is concerned.   That makes "common sense" and "rational thinking" to me.

::Christianfish::

: Layceers  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 12:43:06He is a miracle child of God.    And I thank the Lord every day for him!!!

What a wonderful testimony my dear sister! The same thing happened with my second grandson. The doctors told my son that something was wrong with the child, and they recommended the same thing to my daughter-in-law~and we told them that we will take just what God gave us, but there would be no abortion, and it was not even an option. The boy was born, and had a sight problem with a ticking eye, other than that, he was beautiful, and later proved to be highly intelligent. Caleb finished high school with a 4.5 and in now in Clemson doing the same with extremely hard courses. The Lord is indeed GOOD. Caleb has a brother named Joshua, who is autistic~who has shown us that God is more gracious than we would have ever known with out him.   

: Layceers  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 12:43:06
CovK, I have a question.

If I am so wrong in my beliefs and evidently living in sin for not keeping the "law" why is God so good to me?   He answers my prayers, gives me comfort and is always showing me that He is here with me.

I will give you one great example.    My daughter was pregnant and had an ultrasound that showed severe abnormalities.    The Dr. and nurse recommended that she consider ending the pregnancy.   They said that "if" the baby did make it full term and was born, he would have profound mental retardation and probably die as an infant.   My daughter took this to heart and with much sorrow, made the appt. to get an abortion.    When they were examining her prior to the procedure they were giving her an ultrasound.   The Dr. left the ultasound wand  on her belly and turned away for a second and just then my granson kicked so hard the ultasound wand "flew" off my daughters belly and hit the floor.    (This was odd because my daughter had only felt slight movements from the baby so far.)  My daughter knew in her heart what that meant.   She immediately got up, got dressed, left and promised the Lord that she would accept whatever was to happen with his help.

My grandson was born full term several months later at Rainbow Babies and Children's Hosp. in Cleveland.   He remained their for about 2 months.   He did have some very serious disabilities.     But we held him up in our church (Methodist) every Sunday and he just kept improving.   
Long story short:   He was delayed a bit in starting school but caught right up and made the Honor Roll all through High School.    Even played football one season!!   ::smile::   He now he is in his first year of college at RIT in NY and doing pretty good, I might add.   He is a miracle child of God.    And I thank the Lord every day for him!!!

CovK, this is just one example of how the Lord has blessed and taken care of my family and myself in my life.    And if like you say, we are to use common sense, rational thinking and good reasoning, then I think I MUST be doing something right where my Christianity is concerned.   That makes "common sense" and "rational thinking" to me.

::Christianfish::

Layceers,

Good to hear from you again. First of all, I will never rob a Christian of their testimony. After all, I found the God of Creation through Christianity, I'm just able to see the Jewish Messiah without that Religion now.

You asked why God is so good to you even though you disregard the Covenant that even our Master obeyed. The answer is simply this:

God will accommodate our ignorances but when the knowledge comes, you will be without excuse...and knowledge has come to you by way of the info in this Post.

Will God then continue blessing you if you still refuse that Covenant? Sure, you just proved that He has been already. But on the other hand, will God give you the promises of that Covenant seeing as you reject it but think you're entitled to it riding on Christ's coattail--who Himself lived by it in His lifetime? No!! (Despite popular Christian belief)

By the way, if Christ lived by that Covenant, it makes Him a hypocrit if He's telling you that you dont have to. But Christianity won't let you think that through RATIONALLY lol.

: Alan  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 10:22:55
What did Christ mean when He said He came to fulfill the law, not to abolish it?

He was referring to changing our hearts rather than to perform a check list of dos and don'ts that one might feel has kept them in good standing with God.

The law was simply not enough to offer salvation, that was the purpose for Christ and why we needed Him and continue to need Him.

I don't think anyone here is purporting that the law is a thing of the past, members here generally seem to acknowledge that we need to do our best to do the will of God, not only by the letter but with a proper heart condition.   

Al

Are you asking me, sir?

AMEN RB...God IS Good!!   

That is the point.    If we are so wrong in our beliefs, why do we have a Father who is so good to us.   I know from experience the admonishment/discipline/instruction I can receive when I go the wrong way.     It is not fun!   So if we are constantly not following God's "law", why then is he not letting us know that we are in dangerous territory.    Instead he is blessing us beyond measure, communicating with us, answering prayers and helping us get through the natural calamities of life that we all occasionally face.
I cannot even imagine living my life without the wonderful, loving Father I have.   

And if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it.    It think that is "common sense."   

::Christianfish::

: Layceers  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 14:35:17
AMEN RB...God IS Good!!   

That is the point.    If we are so wrong in our beliefs, why do we have a Father who is so good to us.   I know from experience the admonishment/discipline/instruction I can receive when I go the wrong way.     It is not fun!   So if we are constantly not following God's "law", why then is he not letting us know that we are in dangerous territory.    Instead he is blessing us beyond measure, communicating with us, answering prayers and helping us get through the natural calamities of life that we all occasionally face.
I cannot even imagine living my life without the wonderful, loving Father I have.   

And if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it.    It think that is "common sense."   

::Christianfish::

I just answered this (see above)

I saw that after I posted.   We were posting at about the same time.   It was not a rebuttal just an addition to my other post.   

However, I have another question.   There are hundreds of OT laws.  Work laws, hygiene laws, gender specific laws, and on and on.   It would be impossible to keep some of them and impractical to observe others.    Specifically, which laws are you talking about?   Is there a list of the ones we are still required to obey?

::Christianfish::

chosenone,

Lol, don't think I forgot about you. I'm on a very short lunch break. So, while I'm at work here's some homework for you in light of your Acts reference:

Remember what I said about CONSISTENCY and WITNESSES?:

If you believe the Spirit ONLY gave some of the Law for Gentiles to obey, you should be able to find that consistent in the FT with SCRIPTURAL witnesses--being that it is the FOUNDATION to EVERYTHING those JEWISH Believers taught in the NT. Go back into the Torah and Tanakh and see if you can find some. The Spirit won't contradict the Word in any point.

But I've done your homework for you, you won't find it!! Which means the Christian interpretation of that Acts passage is wrong. But hey, maybe you'll surprise me (I doubt it lol).

I'll give the Biblical understanding of that later using BOTH HALVES of the Bible, something your Religion can't do. Why? Because it's a false religious system. I'll show you why after I get off lol

: Covkeeper34  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 07:10:56 Many Christians do in fact believe the Law is done away with and I know many do because I talk to many. I'm proving that to be false belief in front of you all using mere common sense.

You have so much error, that it is hard to know which one to expose. Would you like to know what God thinks of "common sense", or man's wisdom? It's worthless as a pile of dung.

Proverbs 3:5-7...Reads~"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil."

Again:

John 2:24,25...Reads~"But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man."

You sir, are desiring man to trust in himself for the needed wisdom to know truth, yet TRUTH comes by Divine revelation, not through "common sense"! Whatever is common among men, has always proven to be a abomination to the Holy God of heaven and earth. I could heap hundred of scriptures to prove my point, but truth is not what you are after.

But, allow me to test you. You say that Christians only use half of the word of God, yet you know not what you are saying. I use all of the word of God, as a guide for me in living my life JUST AS Jesus would have done if he was here. Now what I am going to say, many will not believe the way that I do on this point, so I am speaking here about my personal conviction based upon the word of God and my understanding of it.  This will be hard for most to accept what I am going to say, yet this is my personal conviction to show people like you just how much I used ALL OF the word of God to live by. 

There was a mass killing yesterday in Southern California unmerciful carrying out by wicked people who hate others just because they are Americans. These murders killed people who were giving THEM A PARTY and gifts for their new born child. Thank God they were killed for their wicked deeds. The couple left a six month old child.  Question: What would Samuel do with the child? What did God command Saul to do with the Amalekites, for what they had done to Israel? 1st Samuel 15..specially verse 3..just as they did to Israel, God commanded Saul to do to them, did he not? What should be done with this six month old child? Should the child be left here in America? I will not say what I would do, because most cannot take it, because most refuse to think the way the scriptures teach us to think.  So for now I will say this~the child must go. That child will grow up and follow in the steps of its parents, unless God intervene. But if he chooses to do so, let it be in the middle east and not here. Now, if the God does not desire for that child to leave, which he should, then God can protect that child just as he protected Moses as a child and just as he protected Jesus as a child. I would show the world that we mean business. Kill one of ours, then we will kill two of yours. I would follow Samuel. Who would you follow? Hilary Clinton? 

: Layceers  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 14:50:40
I saw that after I posted.   We were posting at about the same time.   It was not a rebuttal just an addition to my other post.   

However, I have another question.   There are hundreds of OT laws.  Work laws, hygiene laws, gender specific laws, and on and on.   It would be impossible to keep some of them and impractical to observe others.    Specifically, which laws are you talking about?   Is there a list of the ones we are still required to obey?

::Christianfish::

Go back and read your Law. Keep everything that apparently still applies to you today. Yes, I'm telling you to stop believing what Christianity is telling you about the Law and go see about it yourself.

: Covkeeper34  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 15:02:27
chosenone,

Lol, don't think I forgot about you. I'm on a very short lunch break. So, while I'm at work here's some homework for you in light of your Acts reference:

Remember what I said about CONSISTENCY and WITNESSES?:

If you believe the Spirit ONLY gave some of the Law for Gentiles to obey, you should be able to find that consistent in the FT with SCRIPTURAL witnesses--being that it is the FOUNDATION to EVERYTHING those JEWISH Believers taught in the NT. Go back into the Torah and Tanakh and see if you can find some. The Spirit won't contradict the Word in any point.

But I've done your homework for you, you won't find it!! Which means the Christian interpretation of that Acts passage is wrong. But hey, maybe you'll surprise me (I doubt it lol).

I'll give the Biblical understanding of that later using BOTH HALVES of the Bible, something your Religion can't do. Why? Because it's a false religious system. I'll show you why after I get off lol

You mentioned that you believe that circumcision should still be obeserved and yet paul has scathing words for those like yourself who still demand that gentile believers are circumcised and observe other such jewish traditions.

I think this is the third time that I have posted this but here goes again

7 You were running [the race] well; who has interfered and prevented you from obeying the truth? 8 This [deceptive] persuasion is not from Him who called you [to freedom in Christ]. 9 A little leaven [a slight inclination to error, or a few false teachers] leavens the whole batch [it perverts the concept of faith and misleads the church]. 10 I have confidence in you in the Lord that you will adopt no other view [contrary to mine on the matter]; but the one who is disturbing you, whoever he is, will have to bear the penalty. 11 But as for me, [c]brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision [as I had done before I met Christ; and as [d]some accuse me of doing now, as necessary for salvation], why am I still being persecuted [by Jews]? In that case the stumbling block of the cross [to unbelieving Jews] has been abolished. 12 I wish that those who are troubling you [by teaching that circumcision is necessary for salvation] would even [go all the way and] castrate themselves!
 

No mistaking Pauls anger there, and its directed at people such as yourself who are promoting untruths.  ::frown::

I am betting that you have more or less isolated yourself from other people who follow Jesus, because you believe they are all wrong and you are right. Is that correct?

: Covkeeper34  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 14:32:10

: Alan  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 10:22:55
What did Christ mean when He said He came to fulfill the law, not to abolish it?

He was referring to changing our hearts rather than to perform a check list of dos and don'ts that one might feel has kept them in good standing with God.

The law was simply not enough to offer salvation, that was the purpose for Christ and why we needed Him and continue to need Him.

I don't think anyone here is purporting that the law is a thing of the past, members here generally seem to acknowledge that we need to do our best to do the will of God, not only by the letter but with a proper heart condition.   

Al

Are you asking me, sir?

No, I took care of the answer myself,  thanks though  ::tippinghat::

: Covkeeper34  Sun Nov 29, 2015 - 15:02:22
Hi, I'm Covkeeper34. Yes, I am an ex-Christian. I was one for almost 20yrs. I do love Christians still because I was one but the Christian religion, I had to depart from it. Yes, the Son of David is still Lord. Yes, the Bible is the Truth. But being and avid reader of my Bible since I was 10yrs old, I know that  "Westernized Christianity" isn't the same as what we read in the Bible.

I'd like to have a friendly talk with only strong Christians who know their Bibles well because I know mine very well and in my experience, talking to Christians who do not know theirs well is like an adult trying to have an adult conversation with an immature kid who thinks they know it all in their limited experience.

I'd like to speak with only teachable and humble disciples who know and acknowledge that they do not have all the pieces to the puzzle as I acknowledge the same. I am teachable and not above correction but I ask that you do keep in mind that I know my Bible very well. You will see that I am able to explain my reasonings on the level that even a child can understand.

So please, will you come chat with me about some things?

A Christian is someone who has been made alive to God in Christ, literally. When God makes your spirit alive, you are now alive. You have transferred from death to life. It isn't even possible to become dead again. If you were made alive to God in Christ, you are still a 'Christian'. If you don't like the label 'Christian', then don't use it.

: Covkeeper34  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 15:06:19

: Layceers  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 14:50:40
I saw that after I posted.   We were posting at about the same time.   It was not a rebuttal just an addition to my other post.   

However, I have another question.   There are hundreds of OT laws.  Work laws, hygiene laws, gender specific laws, and on and on.   It would be impossible to keep some of them and impractical to observe others.    Specifically, which laws are you talking about?   Is there a list of the ones we are still required to obey?

::Christianfish::

Go back and read your Law. Keep everything that apparently still applies to you today. Yes, I'm telling you to stop believing what Christianity is telling you about the Law and go see about it yourself.

Jesus fulfilled the law because we never could. It isn't even possible for humans to follow the law. The point of the law was to expose the fact that we are sinners.

The Rational Mind Pt 3

Common sense and good reasoning will be the death of any false religious system.

Let me shoot an arrow...

In the Christian religion you will hear it propogated that Rav Shaul was a persecutor of the "Christian Church" Hmm...Let's take out our Bibles and see what it's really saying

Whoa!! If we're reading this correctly, Rav Shaul is a Jew/Hebrew zealous of the TRADITIONS of the fathers. He isn't persecuting any type of Believer. No, he's a JEW persecuitng JEWS LIKE CEPHAS who believe in A JEW as their Messiah!! What does he care that a Gentile believes? He wasn't concerned with them at the time!

Rational Mind,  who here doesn't know that a Messianic Jew and a Christian are not the same?! These are two DIFFERENT lifestyles that continue to this day and I know this because I'M ONE OF THEM!!

Rational Mind , which lifestyle are you reading about in your Bible and BE HONEST with yourselves:

A) The Christian lifestyle as you know it?
OR
B) The Hebraic Messianic Lifestyle as it has continued TO THIS VERY DAY since the Jewish Messiah gave instruction to His JEWISH DISCIPLES?

The answer is B!! And "B" is for BOOM!!

Messianic Jews back then still believed in keeping the Law!! Messianic Believers both Jew and Gentile today, still believe in keeping the Law!!  Just go and ask one when you find one. And it won't be hard because unbeknownst to you, they're probably in your neighborhood!

***the Rational Mind is thinking this through, thinking, thinking*** and breaks the silence by asking me this: Cov, how can you be so sure that the Messianic Jews like Peter, James, and Paul still kept Law after conversion?:

Because if you read your Gospels,  RABBI Yeshua tells His Disciples, 'Keep the Law of Moses but DON'T be like the Pharisees in your application of it!! BOOM!

Q: Does the Christian Jesus encourage his Christian disciples to keep the Law of Moses? No, he doesn't!! That's because the Christian Jesus never existed. He's the manufacturing of a false system called "Christianity" lol. Ouch!!

That was just an arrow but that BOOM! sure felt like a missile didn't it!

But we have stubborn Christians here who've been so indoctrinated into Christian theology, they can't even accept what's plainly written in English in their own Bibles. We're exposing that today though aren't we, Rational Mind?

Still not convinced Christianity is a false religious system? BUT WAIT!! Let's put the icing on the cake, shall we lol? The smart Christian who knows their NT will point me to the passage of verses(not scripture) where Rav Shaul testifies that he was "a persecutor of the CHURCH":

Hmm...Rational Mind, let's use both halves of the Bible to find some CONSISTENCY on what the Bible defines as "the CHURCH" We see clearly that the first CHURCH began in EXODUS made up of primarily Hebrews and the Gentiles who joined themselves to them AND they all came under the Law of Moses believing in the PROPHET Moses said was to come!!

In the first half of your Bible, it's called the "CONGREGATION" in the Second half it's called the "Church".

So, the ideal CHURCH back then found its realization in ACTS made up of Jews/Hebrews and Gentiles that still kept Law and Believed in Yeshua. Cornelius is a prime example! This is too easy!!

If the Christian religion that you are in is causing you to forsake your common sense, good reasoning,  and REALITY,  you can know for sure that you've fallen into a false religious system especially if it forces you to deny the Law in order to embrace it's manufactured Christ!

Lol, stay tuned for Pt 4

Boom!  Nothing new added.  Boom!

: Texas Conservative  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 21:34:11
Boom!  Nothing new added.  Boom!

What were you expecting?  ::giggle:: 

: Alan  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 21:40:52

: Texas Conservative  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 21:34:11
Boom!  Nothing new added.  Boom!

What were you expecting?  ::giggle::

He claimed to be a General. His skills are lacking.  Since I am the Brigadier General, he is being demoted to Lieutenant.

: Texas Conservative  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 21:51:48

: Alan  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 21:40:52

: Texas Conservative  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 21:34:11
Boom!  Nothing new added.  Boom!

What were you expecting?  ::giggle::

He claimed to be a General. His skills are lacking.  Since I am the Brigadier General, he is being demoted to Lieutenant.

He certainly is pleased with himself.

Texas Conservative, 

Can I ask you something? I promise that even you will feel this missile.

: Nevertheless  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 22:00:50

: Texas Conservative  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 21:51:48

: Alan  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 21:40:52

: Texas Conservative  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 21:34:11
Boom!  Nothing new added.  Boom!

What were you expecting?  ::giggle::

He claimed to be a General. His skills are lacking.  Since I am the Brigadier General, he is being demoted to Lieutenant.

He certainly is pleased with himself.

Lol, is that all you got lol

Global mediators,

Trust and believe. Look at all the views this getting.

You don't get it but the Rational Mind  is paying close attention. Remember that lol

: Covkeeper34  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 22:05:56
Global mediators,

Trust and believe. Look at all the views this getting.

You don't get it but the Rational Mind  is paying close attention. Remember that lol

views from people who are probably seeing what we are, that you have got way way off track and are seriously deceived.
They can see as well as we do, that the Bible speaks for itself on these matters. 

: chosenone  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 22:10:45

: Covkeeper34  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 22:05:56
Global mediators,

Trust and believe. Look at all the views this getting.

You don't get it but the Rational Mind  is paying close attention. Remember that lol

views from people who are probably seeing what we are, that you have got way way off track and are seriously deceived.
They can see as well as we do, that the Bible speaks for itself on these matters.

Hmm...is that what they're really thinking? And while you're too busy looking at me, The Rational Mind is looking at their Bibles.

Boom!! Lol

Lol, is that all you got lol

Why should I bother to counter foolish posts full of straw man arguments and narcissistic back patting?

: Texas Conservative  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 21:51:48

: Alan  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 21:40:52

: Texas Conservative  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 21:34:11
Boom!  Nothing new added.  Boom!

What were you expecting?  ::giggle::

He claimed to be a General. His skills are lacking.  Since I am the Brigadier General, he is being demoted to Lieutenant.

:thewave:

: Covkeeper34  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 22:05:56
Global mediators,

Trust and believe. Look at all the views this getting.

You don't get it but the Rational Mind  is paying close attention. Remember that lol

Just because people are looking, doesn't mean they are buying what you are trying to sell, its FAR more likely that there is just a fair share of rubber neckin' goin' on.

: Nevertheless  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 22:16:15

Lol, is that all you got lol

Why should I bother to counter foolish posts full of straw man arguments and narcissistic back patting?

Have I lied about anything yet concerning how Westernized Christians believe and how it conditions it's converts to believe? Remember,  I used to be one so I know how that Religion teaches all too well.

: Nevertheless  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 22:16:15

Lol, is that all you got lol

Why should I bother to counter foolish posts full of straw man arguments and narcissistic back patting?

::amen!::  Irrational ranting is best left to burn itself out.

: MeMyself  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 22:19:30

: Covkeeper34  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 22:05:56
Global mediators,

Trust and believe. Look at all the views this getting.

You don't get it but the Rational Mind  is paying close attention. Remember that lol

Just because people are looking, doesn't mean they are buying what you are trying to sell, its FAR more likely that there is just a fair share of rubber neckin' goin' on.

Are you sure about that?

: MeMyself  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 22:20:29

: Nevertheless  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 22:16:15

Lol, is that all you got lol

Why should I bother to counter foolish posts full of straw man arguments and narcissistic back patting?

::amen!::  Irrational ranting is best left to burn itself out.

Do the viewers, I mean The Rational Mind think this is irrational? Notice how it's only the known Christians mocking who don't believe in keeping the Law of Moses?

: Covkeeper34  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 22:21:11

: MeMyself  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 22:19:30

: Covkeeper34  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 22:05:56
Global mediators,

Trust and believe. Look at all the views this getting.

You don't get it but the Rational Mind  is paying close attention. Remember that lol

Just because people are looking, doesn't mean they are buying what you are trying to sell, its FAR more likely that there is just a fair share of rubber neckin' goin' on.

Are you sure about that?

Yep. ::eatingpopcorn:

: Covkeeper34  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 22:23:16

: MeMyself  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 22:20:29

: Nevertheless  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 22:16:15

Lol, is that all you got lol

Why should I bother to counter foolish posts full of straw man arguments and narcissistic back patting?

::amen!::  Irrational ranting is best left to burn itself out.

Do the viewers, I mean The Rational Mind think this is irrational? Notice how it's only the known Christians mocking who don't believe in keeping the Law of Moses?

Oh, trust me, its not the law of Moses being mocked...

: MeMyself  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 22:24:53

: Covkeeper34  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 22:21:11

: MeMyself  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 22:19:30

: Covkeeper34  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 22:05:56
Global mediators,

Trust and believe. Look at all the views this getting.

You don't get it but the Rational Mind  is paying close attention. Remember that lol

Just because people are looking, doesn't mean they are buying what you are trying to sell, its FAR more likely that there is just a fair share of rubber neckin' goin' on.

Are you sure about that?

Yep. ::eatingpopcorn:

Can you prove that?

: Covkeeper34  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 22:25:38

: MeMyself  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 22:24:53

: Covkeeper34  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 22:21:11

: MeMyself  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 22:19:30

: Covkeeper34  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 22:05:56
Global mediators,

Trust and believe. Look at all the views this getting.

You don't get it but the Rational Mind  is paying close attention. Remember that lol

Just because people are looking, doesn't mean they are buying what you are trying to sell, its FAR more likely that there is just a fair share of rubber neckin' goin' on.

Are you sure about that?

Yep. ::eatingpopcorn:

Can you prove that?

No. But, neither can you prove they are looking and buying the crud you are slinging. So,  ::shrug::.

: MeMyself  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 22:17:37

: Texas Conservative  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 21:51:48

: Alan  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 21:40:52

: Texas Conservative  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 21:34:11
Boom!  Nothing new added.  Boom!

What were you expecting?  ::giggle::

He claimed to be a General. His skills are lacking.  Since I am the Brigadier General, he is being demoted to Lieutenant.

:thewave:

Speaking of generals, who do you think has been leading the traffic here? I promise you it's not just happening. Maybe I have something to do with it. And wouldn't it blow your mind if you found out I was leading Christian soldiers here that respect what I say even though they know I'm not one anymore. Maybe I'm more of a general in YOUR religion than you thought.

: MeMyself  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 22:25:28

: Covkeeper34  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 22:23:16

: MeMyself  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 22:20:29

: Nevertheless  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 22:16:15

Lol, is that all you got lol

Why should I bother to counter foolish posts full of straw man arguments and narcissistic back patting?

::amen!::  Irrational ranting is best left to burn itself out.

Do the viewers, I mean The Rational Mind think this is irrational? Notice how it's only the known Christians mocking who don't believe in keeping the Law of Moses?

Oh, trust me, its not the law of Moses being mocked...

Hmm..then if it's me you're mocking, what is a Spirit filled Christian doing mocking people and taking pleasure in it? Now you're mocking Christianity and embarrassing it in front of everyone. Oh, you must've forgot, The Rational Mind isn't just watching me, they're watching you too. Boom!!

: MeMyself  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 22:28:07

: Covkeeper34  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 22:25:38

: MeMyself  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 22:24:53

: Covkeeper34  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 22:21:11

: MeMyself  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 22:19:30

: Covkeeper34  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 22:05:56
Global mediators,

Trust and believe. Look at all the views this getting.

You don't get it but the Rational Mind  is paying close attention. Remember that lol

Just because people are looking, doesn't mean they are buying what you are trying to sell, its FAR more likely that there is just a fair share of rubber neckin' goin' on.

Are you sure about that?

Yep. ::eatingpopcorn:

Can you prove that?

No. But, neither can you prove they are looking and buying the crud you are slinging. So,  ::shrug::.

I actually can prove it. Who do you think has been leading these viewers here, personally? Wouldn't it blow your mind to know that I know for a fact these are Christians I'm leading her? And they respect what I say even though they know I'm not on that team anymore? When you as a Christian mock me publicly, you embarrass them and that whole false religious system.

: Covkeeper34  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 22:19:51
Have I lied about anything yet concerning how Westernized Christians believe and how it conditions it's converts to believe? Remember,  I used to be one so I know how that Religion teaches all too well.

See Reply #204

: Nevertheless  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 22:40:04

: Covkeeper34  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 22:19:51
Have I lied about anything yet concerning how Westernized Christians believe and how it conditions it's converts to believe? Remember,  I used to be one so I know how that Religion teaches all too well.

See Reply #204

Put it in your own words what I lied about.

Those are my words. Are you having trouble reading?

: Nevertheless  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 22:45:30
Those are my words. Are you having trouble reading?

Well, this phone doesn't show what reply it is, it doesn't show images of who you guys are, and this phone doesn't show how many views my post has. I only know about the views because I used my tablet yesterday.

So, since you think I'm lying please humor me and give a condensed version so I can continue defending my stance.

So you are having trouble reading.
::smile::


This was written in reply to your post (LINK (http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/non-traditional-theology/after-20yrs/msg1055002867/#msg1055002867)) yesterday:

: Nevertheless  Wed Dec 02, 2015 - 23:38:00
In spite of your enthusiastic support of the "rational mind" your arguments are quite lacking in logic.

Premise 1: In order for a prophet to be "like Moses" he must receive a law from a mountain.

First, the Law Moses received did not come from a mountain, it came from God while Moses was on the mountain, so the "facts" on which you base your premise are faulty.

Second, what is your basis for choosing this one characteristic of Moses on which to test the similarity of a prophet? Moses was of the tribe of Levi, was raised in Pharaoh's household, worked as a shepherd for 40 years, and began his job of leading Israel at age 80. Any of those characteristics could just as easily be chosen to determine if a prophet is "like Moses."

Premise 2: "Christian Jesus has no Law for you to obey"

This is simply false and demonstrates to all that you know very little about Christianity, despite your claims to great knowledge.

The Rational Mind Pt 4

Oh boy!! These moderators got me fired up lol!! Let's look at something else...

The Propaganda of Westernized Christianity is so effective. I commend it for its propaganda because propaganda in and of itself isn't a bad thing. But in the wrong hands...

This right here is more than a missile, it's an ATOM BOMB....

Rational Mind, do you notice....Hold on, let's do it this way....Let's use COMMON SENSE. ..

If I as an American wrote an American book, could you mistake it for a Swiss if it's contents are only filled with American thoughts and ideals? No? Good assessment.

What if I, an American wrote an American book but wrote it all in Spanish even though it's contents are filled with American thoughts and ideas, could you mistake it for a Spanish book if you could also read Spanish? No? Gee, Rational Mind, you're super smart.

Do you notice anything interesting about your Bible? No? It isn't obvious to you? Look at it closely. Pick it up right now and flip through its pages randomly.

You don't see it? Let me help you....

Start with the introduction to all the Books in your Torah and Tanakh if your Bible has 'em. Do you see it? All the authors are or are said to be, Hebrews right? But you probably already knew that in the back of your mind. Samuel, David, Solomon, Daniel: All Hebrew/Jewish right? Switch to the NT....

Can you see it? All the authors are Hebrew/Jewish, right? Can you see where this is going? Peter, John, James, Paul: All Jewish authors, right?***Rational Mind is thinking this through, thinking, thinking*** And suddenly breaks silence and says to me:

Cov, I've heard it PROPAGATED in Christianity that Luke is a Gentile!!

Hmm...I know that's what they say, I was testing you. But they're argument is SUPER WEAK!! They say Luke was a Gentile because his name is Luke. Or they say, Luke is a Gentile because he's a physician.

Not only will we use common sense  but we will also use reality to disprove that. Just because his name is Luke IN THE BIBLE, doesn't mean he's a Gentile. The name Jesus isn't Jewish, but we know He is. His brother's name is James IN THE BIBLE. That's not the Jewish name his parents gave him, is it?!! So, that argument is dead. Just because he's a doctor of whatever sort, doesn't mean he's a Gentile. What, you don't think there were any Jewish doctors back then? Come on, you're smarter than that Rational Mind, aren't you? Look around America today, look at how many Jewish doctors, lawyers, and business men/women there are!! That Christian argument is dead as well.

Your Bible is full of nothing but Jewish/Hebrew authors.

What are you saying, Cov?

Well, my common sense says that if the Biblical volume of books has nothing but Jewish / Hebrew authors in it....then the Bible IS NOT A CHRISTIAN BOOK!!.

But the propaganda of Westernized Christianity has fooled many people to the point that they'll read this Jewish material with only Christian eyes. What a hijacking!!!

What a departure from TRADITIONAL THEOLOGY. This forum is rightly named because Christian theology is the "NON-TRADITIONAL THEOLOGY" BOOM!!
***The Rational Mind is waking up****

: Covkeeper34  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 22:21:11

: MeMyself  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 22:19:30

: Covkeeper34  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 22:05:56
Global mediators,

Trust and believe. Look at all the views this getting.

You don't get it but the Rational Mind  is paying close attention. Remember that lol

Just because people are looking, doesn't mean they are buying what you are trying to sell, its FAR more likely that there is just a fair share of rubber neckin' goin' on.

Are you sure about that?

Well if they are saved, yes. 

: Covkeeper34  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 22:32:37

: MeMyself  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 22:17:37

: Texas Conservative  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 21:51:48

: Alan  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 21:40:52

: Texas Conservative  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 21:34:11
Boom!  Nothing new added.  Boom!

What were you expecting?  ::giggle::

He claimed to be a General. His skills are lacking.  Since I am the Brigadier General, he is being demoted to Lieutenant.

:thewave:

Speaking of generals, who do you think has been leading the traffic here? I promise you it's not just happening. Maybe I have something to do with it. And wouldn't it blow your mind if you found out I was leading Christian soldiers here that respect what I say even though they know I'm not one anymore. Maybe I'm more of a general in YOUR religion than you thought.

You ask who had been leading the traffic here on this topic? Firstly God who wants to make sure that your unbiblical beliefs are refuted with the truth of the Bible(as has happened),and maybe also the enemy who wants to see more of Gods children go way off track, because that is what he loves to to. Get one of Gods children on their own away from other believers, fill their minds with thoughts of anything he can to fill them with arrogance and pride and make them think things such as that the blood of Jesus shed for us wasnt enough to save us, but that we must all go back pre when Jesus came and become Jews.  ::eek::  ::frown:: ::doh:: ::shrug::

: Covkeeper34  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 23:46:42
The Rational Mind Pt 4

Oh boy!! These moderators got me fired up lol!! Let's look at something else...

The Propaganda of Westernized Christianity is so effective. I commend it for its propaganda because propaganda in and of itself isn't a bad thing. But in the wrong hands...

This right here is more than a missile, it's an ATOM BOMB....

Rational Mind, do you notice....Hold on, let's do it this way....Let's use COMMON SENSE. ..

If I as an American wrote an American book, could you mistake it for a Swiss if it's contents are only filled with American thoughts and ideals? No? Good assessment.

What if I, an American wrote an American book but wrote it all in Spanish even though it's contents are filled with American thoughts and ideas, could you mistake it for a Spanish book if you could also read Spanish? No? Gee, Rational Mind, you're super smart.

Do you notice anything interesting about your Bible? No? It isn't obvious to you? Look at it closely. Pick it up right now and flip through its pages randomly.

You don't see it? Let me help you....

Start with the introduction to all the Books in your Torah and Tanakh if your Bible has 'em. Do you see it? All the authors are or are said to be, Hebrews right? But you probably already knew that in the back of your mind. Samuel, David, Solomon, Daniel: All Hebrew/Jewish right? Switch to the NT....

Can you see it? All the authors are Hebrew/Jewish, right? Can you see where this is going? Peter, John, James, Paul: All Jewish authors, right?***Rational Mind is thinking this through, thinking, thinking*** And suddenly breaks silence and says to me:

Cov, I've heard it PROPAGATED in Christianity that Luke is a Gentile!!

Hmm...I know that's what they say, I was testing you. But they're argument is SUPER WEAK!! They say Luke was a Gentile because his name is Luke. Or they say, Luke is a Gentile because he's a physician.

Not only will we use common sense  but we will also use reality to disprove that. Just because his name is Luke IN THE BIBLE, doesn't mean he's a Gentile. The name Jesus isn't Jewish, but we know He is. His brother's name is James IN THE BIBLE. That's not the Jewish name his parents gave him, is it?!! So, that argument is dead. Just because he's a doctor of whatever sort, doesn't mean he's a Gentile. What, you don't think there were any Jewish doctors back then? Come on, you're smarter than that Rational Mind, aren't you? Look around America today, look at how many Jewish doctors, lawyers, and business men/women there are!! That Christian argument is dead as well.

Your Bible is full of nothing but Jewish/Hebrew authors.

What are you saying, Cov?

Well, my common sense says that if the Biblical volume of books has nothing but Jewish / Hebrew authors in it....then the Bible IS NOT A CHRISTIAN BOOK!!.

But the propaganda of Westernized Christianity has fooled many people to the point that they'll read this Jewish material with only Christian eyes. What a hijacking!!!

What a departure from TRADITIONAL THEOLOGY. This forum is rightly named because Christian theology is the "NON-TRADITIONAL THEOLOGY" BOOM!!
***The Rational Mind is waking up****

so what if Luke is or isnt Jewish, if doesnt make any difference to the truth of what we are told in the bible. We are told that if we go back and begin to think we have to do what the Jews did then and get circumcised and keep all the old laws, we must keep ALL the laws perfectly or we are lost. This applies to you CK, get back to who can save you.
I would far rather trust in what Jesus did for me, because He IS perfect, and we are not and never will be.

5 For such freedom Christ set us free. Therefore stand fast, and do not let yourselves be confined again in a yoke of slavery.
2 See! I, Paul, am telling YOU that if YOU become circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to YOU. 3 Moreover, I bear witness again to every man getting circumcised that he is under obligation to perform the whole Law. 4 YOU are parted from Christ, whoever YOU are that try to be declared righteous by means of law; YOU have fallen away from his undeserved kindness. 5 For our part we by spirit are eagerly waiting for the hoped-for righteousness as a result of faith. 6 For as regards Christ Jesus neither circumcision is of any value nor is uncircumcision, but faith operating through love [is].

: Covkeeper34  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 22:01:41I promise that even you will feel this missile.

Oh please! I have not even seen a child's firecracker from you, and you think that you are shooting missiles! That's about like a African woman with a ring through her nose smiling bare breasted, thinks she's something to behold!  The poor soul like you, does not know any better, because she has never seen real beauty...and in your case TRUTH. 

: Covkeeper34  Thu Dec 03, 2015 - 23:46:42

Oh boy!! These moderators got me fired up lol!!

Your words prove that you care not to truly debate your position with scriptures, but with individuals, whom you only desire to mock. Why did not you answer my four or five post to you? You took a swipe at one, which is not the way a godly man would do. Go back and at least attempt to answer reply #226, it's short, besides, I'm more convinced now than when you first started, that you are not capable of reasoning out of the OT, much less the NT. Why do you not stop playing silly games and narrow down this thread to DOCTRINE ONLY, and you pick one and stay with it. Let me make a suggestion to you~"How is a man made just with God"?  But, the choice is your. IF you refuse to reasoning properly, or, if you refuse to do so all together, which you have so far with me, then you should be banned form this CHRISTIAN SITE.  AT the moment you are guilty of vain jangling.

1st Timothy 1:5-8...Reads~Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;"

By your own testimony you did just what Paul said here in verse 6 about 20 yrs ago: "some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling"....jangling..."A wrangling, noisy fellow; quarreling; sounding discordantly"...that's you my man. Start at least reasoning WITHIN the scriptures or go away. You are appealing unto any and all to use their natural abilities to see if you can harass believers in Jesus Christ, who you truly are mocking. You better have a nice life here, it will be your only one, based upon your many vain words.

Well, my common sense says that if the Biblical volume of books has nothing but Jewish / Hebrew authors in it....then the Bible IS NOT A CHRISTIAN BOOK!!.

Would you care to debate this one subject, and only this one subject with the scriptures?

I think this has gone on long enough. I am locking this thread.  If another mod disagree, I will not be offended if you unlock it.